My old thread was way too long, so I'm starting a new thread as per forum rules. Seems like a good time anyway, as my situation has entered a new chapter.
Here is a link to my old thread:
my W doesn't regret her affair
So now my W pulling out the stops to try to be my buddy again. She sent me a silly e-mail about my son's basketball, pretending to be a concerned mother who doesn't know me.
She took the kids to her brother's place for the weekend, which is a few hours away. I called Saturday night to talk to the kids and she answered her phone with a silly voice, saying something about Hannah Montana. She knew it was me from the caller ID.
I agreed to watch the dog for the weekend, since I missed her, and when I brought the dog back to her house tonight she answered the door in a good mood saying "Hello you wild crazy animal! And hi to you too <dog's name>!" She invited me in to sit and visit with the kids, which was nice, as I hadn't seen them in five days. I didn't take my coat off, I sat next to my son on the sofa and talked with them. My W came and sat next to me and joined in the conversation, but I concentrated on the kids. After about ten mintues I said I had to go, and the kids objected and said they wanted me to stay. I said "I'm sorry, but I do really need to go." I got up to leave, and my W got up and followed me to the door. I just said "I'm glad you had a good trip. Goodbye W." She said "Thanks. Bye." I was pleasant, but I didn't engage her at all.
I have no idea what's going on, and I'm not bothering to wonder about it. She's going to OM's country next week, supposedly to get some work training, not to see OM, but of course I don't believe her. She always acts strange before going on the trips.
She's asked me to go see our old MC with her after she gets back. She says she doesn't trust mediation anymore, but trusts our old MC. She says we have some things to discuss and finalize. She said she would pay, so I agreed. I couldn't think of any reason not to go. I went to see our old MC a few weeks ago to get her take on all this. I hadn't seen her since last spring. I got her caught up, and she just shook her head in amazement about all that went on with us. After I told her about W's plans to get this foreign training, and then take the kids on these international trips, she said "Whoa, whoa! Don't worry about things so far out. W tends to make dramatic statements about the future, but then ends up coming back to earth. Don't get wrapped up in all of W's crazies. Just deal with what's happening now." It made me feel good to hear her say that.
She's going to OM's country next week, supposedly to get some work training, not to see OM
Rubbish.
She's going to see OM.
but of course I don't believe her.
Good.
She always acts strange before going on the trips.
Mine was exactly the same.
So now my W pulling out the stops to try to be my buddy again.
Trying to assuage her own guilt.
She's asked me to go see our old MC with her after she gets back. She says she doesn't trust mediation anymore, but trusts our old MC.
Why?
What's the point in marriage counselling whilst she's active in an affair?
She says we have some things to discuss and finalize.
Hmmm....
I've just read the last bits of your sitch Future. I think it's great that you're not allowing your children to leave the country. Don't even think about doing that for a second.
Also, I think it's excellent that you want a nothingship with her - I felt the same about my wife. Shortly before her OM threw her on the ****heap when she became pregnant to me, the mere sight of her would turn my stomach.
So now my W pulling out the stops to try to be my buddy again.
and you are getting roped in again?
time to break the cycle.
future, been following along quietly. I see you've begun posting to other people's threads - good stuff. I don't have any comments, just wanted to say that I can see from the information that you have posted that you have grown immensely. Still hoping for the best for YOU.
and you are getting roped in again?
time to break the cycle.
For the first time, I'm not getting roped back in. She's trying all this stuff, and it's having little effect on me. I'm ignoring her. Best of all, it's not that hard. I'm realizing I'm stronger and happier when I stay distant from her.
My friends are commenting how much better I'm doing, and I agree. For the past year when I was hit with a wave of pain over all this I would look down and put my hands on the sides of my head and wait for it to pass. Could happen any time. I could be talking with someone, or in a meeting, and I would stop for a moment and make that move. I could guage how well I was coping by how often I had to do that little move. Miraculously, I'm not doing it anymore.
I am also noticing my forgiving, generous nature toward her has been replaced by an distant untrusting nature. I feel a lot of anger toward her as well, but I'm not allowing myself to be eaten up by it.
When she leaves this weekend for her trip I'll have two and a half weeks straight with the kids. Awesome! My parents are coming to visit to see the kids and help, so that'll be great too. This trip will make six weeks that she's left the kids with me over the last year, all voluntary trips to OM's country. I've left the kids with her for two weeks, each time so I could go on a business trip. Her mom told me "And you're worried the courts will give her full custody? Think about that for a minute!"
SMQ, you'll be pleased to know I've been playing guitar a lot, and I'm going to be performing during an open mic night tomorrow night. A bunch of my friends are going to cheer me on. I haven't played in front of public crowd since college, and this will be my first time ever singing in public. I've practiced the tunes to death, and I know I'll do great as long as my nerves don't do me in.
thats fantastic. Enjoy the show.
One thing I continue to struggle with is what to do legally. We've been working toward this separation agreement, and in my state, the only no fault D option is to be legally separated for one year, then either party can convert the separation to a D. I know my W is getting security knowing she has a year before the D becomes a possibility. I don't have to wait though, and a big part of me doesn't want to. I could file for D any time. From what CityGirl says, suing for D in this state is a nightmare though, so I feel stuck. Even if it means nothing to her, it means something to me to still be legally married. Why should I stay married to her while she's with someone else?
Nervous about playing tonight. Played my three songs for my kids and MIL last night, they seemed to like them. My son said "Daddy, you could win on American Idol." Can't ask for a much better comment than that!
I'm increasingly anxious about the legal situation. I keep flip flopping between wanting to let everything sit for a while and do nothing, or be aggressive and file for D. I've come to conclusion that as long as my thinking is so erratic, I shouldn't do anything.
As much as I hate to admit it, my W going on this trip is bothering me. Late last summer when we were starting to talk again, she went on a trip to see OM. She was clearly torn about it, she called me crying from the airport, and was acting like she wanted to stay with me and the kids. Her trip had been planned for a couple months though, and off she went. I promised myself that if she ever went again, I would end our marriage and move on. So here I am. She's leaving this weekend. Part of me wants to honor that promise I made to myself and file for D. Another part feels like me doing that would only be to make a statement and punish her. If I'm done, then I shouldn't care, and I should be satisfied taking the least stressful and cheapest route to D, which is legal separation for a year.
Hey Future Unknown:
You're a good dad and a good man to be so attentive.
There's a part in the Divorce Remedy book about forgiving yourself if you've given all you can possibly give. It really struck home with me. You've done a lot for this woman. You went through Hell with her. You tell a poignant story about it. Whatever you decide to do, I'm sure it will be for the best, for you and your kids.
Good Luck,
Crushed
I'm increasingly anxious about the legal situation. I keep flip flopping between wanting to let everything sit for a while and do nothing, or be aggressive and file for D. I've come to conclusion that as long as my thinking is so erratic, I shouldn't do anything.
, that's probably wise.
That doesn't mean, however, that you should just sit by and let her enjoy her little sexual rendezvous with OM, with no repercussions. If it were me, no, I wouldn't do anything LEGALLY. But I'd damned sure have some
infidelitus interruptus planned for the lovebirds.
Puppy
But I'd damned sure have some infidelitus interruptus planned for the lovebirds.
She'll be thousands of miles away. What could I possibly do to interrupt?
Hey Future Unknown:
You're a good dad and a good man to be so attentive.
There's a part in the Divorce Remedy book about forgiving yourself if you've given all you can possibly give. It really struck home with me. You've done a lot for this woman. You went through Hell with her. You tell a poignant story about it. Whatever you decide to do, I'm sure it will be for the best, for you and your kids.
Good Luck,
Crushed
Hi Crushed-
Thanks for your kind words. I am trying to be a good Dad. The worst part is, the better Dad I become, the more I miss my kids!
I am working on forgiving myself, and I'm making progress. I know she failed me in our M too, even before her A started. She harbored deep resentment about things that happened early in our R, but she didn't talk about them. Her resentment came out in a myriad of ways, all of which were damaging to our M, but none were honestly dealing with the problem. My failure was that I didn't provide her a safe avenue to express herself.
I am increasingly undecided what would be best for me. I know what would be best for the kids.
But I'd damned sure have some infidelitus interruptus planned for the lovebirds.
She'll be thousands of miles away. What could I possibly do to interrupt?
Oh c'mon. I'm sure a bright guy like you could think of quite a few things.
We're told we can't control our spouse's adultery. And it's true -- we can't. But we damned sure don't have to sit idly by and make it EASY on them, either!
Puppy
Oh c'mon. I'm sure a bright guy like you could think of quite a few things.
We're told we can't control our spouse's adultery. And it's true -- we can't. But we damned sure don't have to sit idly by and make it EASY on them, either!
I could text her and tell her I thought I saw her house burning down on the news. Then text again a while later and say "False alarm! Sorry, it sure did look like your house!"
Funny, when she was going on her first trip to see OM, just a few weeks after she moved out, her mom told me she and her niece (W's cousin) had a plan to also go and just "show up" on my W and OM. I told her not to go to the trouble. A friend of mine told me to have W served with D papers while she was with OM the first time.
She was clearly torn about it, she called me crying from the airport, and was acting like she wanted to stay with me and the kids. Her trip had been planned for a couple months though, and off she went. I promised myself that if she ever went again, I would end our marriage and move on. So here I am. .
Good luck on tonight Future~
We are always told to follow through with consequences we have sworn to do. As long as you believe she understood what you meant, it sounds like you need to be ready.
At the same time, consider this:
- Maybe she was crying because she wants to break it off in person, but thinks you're going to D her, so she'll be alone
- Maybe she might come back having broken it off, regardless of her intention.
So if she came back and said she cut things off, you would be able to shelve the D papers, but having them ready if she comes back saying she isn't sure who she wants might not hurt. You have some very tough choices to make calmly.
Once, when my wife was getting dressed to go out at about 10pm on 4th of July (instead of staying home to shoot off fireworks with our boys, as was our family tradition), I just looked her square in the eye from about 2 feet away from her and said:
"I certainly hope you're not going out to be with your boyfriend. That would be incredibly disrespectful to our family on this holiday."
She looked right at me and lied, and that was okay, because I knew I had spoiled their fun anyway. They spent the entire 2 hours at the party they went to, fuming about what I had said! (this I know. . .
)
Example #2:
When my GPS sent me an e-mail that my wife's car wasn't where she said she was going to be, I drove out to investigate, and found it parked in front of a rather large house, down by the river on a quiet cul-de-sac, with OM's P.O.S. pickup truck parked in the driveway (he lived with his parents, at age 29; this was a buddy of his' house). I drove down to the end of the street, after taking a few snapshots with the disposable camera I always kept at-the-ready, and I dialed my wife's cellphone. At first she didn't answer, but eventually, she did. I said "I hope it's worth it."
"What do you mean?" she asked, sounding nervous.
"All of it," I said. "I just hope it's worth it. Really. Have a good time."
"What in the hell are you talking about?" she demanded, now sounding REALLY nervous.
"I know where you are, and what you're doing," I said calmly. I just hope it's all worth the 30 minutes of fun for you." And then I hung up.
They spent the next hour arguing about how I had known where they were (idiot OM thought it was the BMW Assist GPS on her car), instead of humping like naughty little bunnies.
Infidelitus interruptus.Puppy
I'm due to give my W a support check, and I think it's ironic that I'm supposed to give it to her right before she leaves the kids with me for TWO WEEKS while she flies around the world to be with OM. When she asks for the check, perhaps I should say "I'm rethinking the whole support thing. If you have enough money to take off of work for two weeks and fly around the world to see your boyfriend, I'm not sure you need any more money from me." Note that it's not court mandated or anything, just an amount we've agreed to informally.
I guarantee she'll be stressed and fuming about that for quite a while!
Actually, what I would do is give her the check and let her know this will be the last one. Tell her once she returns a formal agreement will be put in place and the support you have given her in the past will be factored in. Answer no more questions about it. If she calls/e-mails you about it while she is gone let her know that you have decided not to discuss this matter further until the formal agreement is implemented.
Future, I know it is hard but it is time. If you are living in the home and sharing custody of the children there is no reason to be paying her support without a formal agreement in place. She works and chose to leave and thus far she has had it pretty good with your financial support. Forget mediation, forget the counselor and get an attny to initiate a formal separation agreement. Your W didn't like the mediator because she knows she can't manipulate THE LAW hence the reason she wants back in counseling. She *can* manipulate you and the C so that is her plan I think.
I like it and am all for that... but that's just me. This is something you need to think about Future. As you know, every action you take has consequences (either good or bad). Be prepared to live with the consequences.
If the support check is not court mandated I hope that you are paying the minimum or more or less what the court would order. The reason I bring this up is because when you DO separate the court looks at what you have been paying before and "sticks" to that payment.
You know your W better than we do. Is there anything else you can do that will not be a threat?
Good luck on tonight Future~
Thanks! Trying to keep my nerves under control. A couple beers beforehand might just be needed!
I just got a funny thought. I'm more nervous than I've been at any of the mediation sessions with my W. Wow, the worst that could happen tonight is I screw up and make a bit of a fool of myself in front of a mostly friendly audience. The mediation sessions involve the end of my M and family.
We are always told to follow through with consequences we have sworn to do. As long as you believe she understood what you meant, it sounds like you need to be ready.
She never knew I made that promise to myself. I did tell her I wouldn't be in an open marriage though.
At the same time, consider this:
- Maybe she was crying because she wants to break it off in person, but thinks you're going to D her, so she'll be alone
- Maybe she might come back having broken it off, regardless of her intention.
So if she came back and said she cut things off, you would be able to shelve the D papers, but having them ready if she comes back saying she isn't sure who she wants might not hurt. You have some very tough choices to make calmly.
Yeah, last time she came back was like that. She immediately told me she wouldn't be going back. I took that as a clear signal she wanted to save our M. Of course, then I made my stand, everything blew up, and now she's off again. Would she have been going anyway? Who knows?
I stand behind everything CG has said. It IS time. And her suggestion will also work. Along the lines of her idea -- what about giving her a check for half the usual funds and add what CG said.
You are enabling her Future! I know you're saying you're doing it out of kindness, compassion etc, blah blah blah.... But can you see that, in the end, all she is doing is taking advantage of you?
It's a little different in NY as far as support goes.
Child support and spousal support are different. There is no set formula for spousal support other than the ages of both spouses, the amount of time they have been married, the health of both spouses and the ages and number of children. There is no numerical formula to follow.
IMO the best defense Future could use is the support he paid her was under the notion that it was a "controlled separation" agreed upon by both spouses in order to work on the marriage. Since his W has continued to conduct her affair and not take any active steps to work on the marriage any further support will be determined via an AGREEMENT (formal). It will cover your ass Future and there really isn't a defense your W can use to counter it.
The nature of the support has changed due to situational change. That is how I would present it to the attny you retain.
Damn. That's GOOD, CG
Puppy
Would she have been going anyway?
From all I've seen in my life so far (and backed by reading sitches on this board) the answer to your question is a strong, resounding: YES.
Actually, what I would do is give her the check and let her know this will be the last one. Tell her once she returns a formal agreement will be put in place and the support you have given her in the past will be factored in. Answer no more questions about it. If she calls/e-mails you about it while she is gone let her know that you have decided not to discuss this matter further until the formal agreement is implemented.
Future, I know it is hard but it is time. If you are living in the home and sharing custody of the children there is no reason to be paying her support without a formal agreement in place. She works and chose to leave and thus far she has had it pretty good with your financial support. Forget mediation, forget the counselor and get an attny to initiate a formal separation agreement. Your W didn't like the mediator because she knows she can't manipulate THE LAW hence the reason she wants back in counseling. She *can* manipulate you and the C so that is her plan I think.
Hi CityGirl! Welcome to my new thread.
Wow, you are good. I think you are dead on right, as far as my W's intentions. As far as the support goes, realize I've been paying her about the bare minimum any judge would possibly allow, but here in this state, that's not saying much. The child support rules here are insane. If I want a D, and if she wants to push it, she could get a LOT more money out of me. I could put more of our marital liabilities on her though. And of course there's the little thing about her having an A, abandoning our home, and leaving our kids with me for six weeks while she goes to be with OM. She'll say the trips to OM's country were for her work, but it won't look good for her either way.
I don't know, we are "this close" to having an agreement. I don't know if I want to bring in lawyers now and get everything thrown back up into the air. Just because she THINKS she can minupulate me doesn't mean she can. I've held my own in the negotiations just fine. In fact, she's the one who's been at the disadvantage, and our MC sees right through her BS, so she'll have no safe harbor there. I've decided I will go to the MC session, I have nothing to lose. Putting my W in a very defensive posture will not be to my benefit.
Future, another thing to consider is the absolute gift you have right now from a legal standpoint.
You give your W her last support check now. She is gone for two weeks. Go retain your attny and create a separation agreement to be served to her upon her return.
In the eyes of the court you are being MORE than fair as you are not "cutting her off" you are simply requesting a formal agreement with enforceable parameters put in place for the protection of your assets and your children. If she is smart (your W that is) she won't balk at the agreement and realize if she does her transgressions will then become part of the case and she will jeopardize *any* support (remember, she brings in an income, chose to leave, committed a crime and in NY adultery is a crime and ya'll have 50/50 custody). In fact, you will look GREAT as you are still offering support and really, if she agrees to the Agreement you set forth, there will be no gap in her "support". If you do this right it could be "win-win" for you.
Don't give her time because if you do I can almost promise you she will retain an attny and file a motion for immediate support and that is when you lose control as those who strike first, well, they have the upper hand in this mess of a system. Don't give her the chance to look like the victim.
IMO the best defense Future could use is the support he paid her was under the notion that it was a "controlled separation" agreed upon by both spouses in order to work on the marriage. Since his W has continued to conduct her affair and not take any active steps to work on the marriage any further support will be determined via an AGREEMENT (formal). It will cover your ass Future and there really isn't a defense your W can use to counter it.
The nature of the support has changed due to situational change. That is how I would present it to the attny you retain.
Hmmm...
Don't give her the chance to look like the victim.
Right. That is exactly what I'm worried about, because then she can use our state's ridiculous laws against me.
Exactly, that is why you have to start being proactive.
The courts don't give a rats ass about MC or anything else. What they want is a hardcore agreement put in place, on the oral record and ready to be signed. Get that to happen before another attny can add BS in the mix.
I wish you could talk to my attny. He is the nicest man in the world, not scary, an absolute whiz and quite simply a godsend.
Would she have been going anyway?
From all I've seen in my life so far (and backed by reading sitches on this board) the answer to your question is a strong, resounding: YES.
But then again, this isn't always the case. Coach/Greek's situation wasn't nearly as bad, but from what I've read, it sounds like they took many wrong turns, too. Things they will regret doing, even if the outcome was positive in the end.
What is done is done. Don't stress it.
Just don't repeat the same mistakes expecting different results.
OTMT Coach/Greeks sitch did NOT involve infidelity and love chemicals on the brain. This IS the case with Future and his W's obsession with the "ungettable" OM and the fantasy she has built in her mind. I like to call it "the poison apple" - once eaten it's difficult to get the toxins out of the system.
I like to call it "the poison apple" - once eaten it's difficult to get the toxins out of the system.
Great analogy! The infidelity is what makes Future's situation so much worse; thanks for pointing out that I wasn't clear enough. What I was hoping to suggest is that I believe we need to assume the best IF we want to work on our M, even as bleak as I think an affair makes it. If the other person screws up in response to our actions, and we still want to work on the M, then we need to change our actions the 2nd time round.
At the same time, we should look for the what ifs and prepare for the ones that would help meet our goals/needs (not necessarily theirs).
What I was hoping to suggest is that I believe we need to assume the best IF we want to work on our M, even as bleak as I think an affair makes it. If the other person screws up in response to our actions, and we still want to work on the M, then we need to change our actions the 2nd time round.
At the same time, we should look for the what ifs and prepare for the ones that would help meet our goals/needs (not necessarily theirs).
I'm sorry, but I don't even have a clue what this even MEANS.
Puppy
I'll take a break from this dreary legal discussion, and say that playing at the open mic last night was awesome! The crowd dubbed me the hit of the night, and the other performers all came up to me and gave compliments. When I said I'd never sang into a microphone before, one guy said "I thought you were a pro who just came out tonight to have a little fun." Wow.
In other news, a certain woman made a point to show up as well, and I don't mean my estranged W. I met her a couple weeks ago, a friend of a friend. We hit it off, and she's managing to wiggle her way into my social circle. Hmmm...
How fun! I am glad your open mic night went so well!
Two "hmmmm's" on this thread!
I played "The Dance" by Garth Brooks, "Behind Blue Eyes" by The Who, and "Heart of Gold" by Neil Young. I accompanied myself with acoustic guitar (my new Takamine, sounded great!), and harmonica for "Heart of Gold". They are all old standards I've been playing for years around campfires and such, so I thought I'd stay safe and stick to what I'm comfortable with. Managing the harmonica and the microphone during "Heart of Gold" was a pain, and flustered me a bit during that one.
There was a thread on here right before New Year's where people listed what goals they had for the new year. I posted and said I'd sing and play in a public setting. Check!
"Thunder Road" competes with "Layla" as the greatest rock love song ever written, IMO. "Thunder Road" for its poetry, and "Layla" for its passion.
The footage of Springsteen playing "Thunder Road" in his '75 London concert (DVD in the Born to Run box set) is truly one of the most powerful performances I've ever seen.
It is far-underrated as compared to "Born to Run." BTR might be the more well-known rock anthem, but "Thunder Road" and even "Jungleland" are better songs, in my opinion.
I used to say, give me a supposed non-Springsteen fan, and let me show them "Jungleland" played live in concert, and I will convert them!
Puppy
It is great to achieve goals. Congrats on the mike night. I am one of them people who die a small death when speaking in public, let alone sing ---- I think you are very brave. I force myself into sitches where I have to speak even if it's a small group like at uni, just to challenge myself.
Just to muck things up with WAW --- give her check at airport (if you're going to be there) in envelope and don't sign it. Oops! I wonder what she would be talking to OM about? You! Even if negatively, I'm sure.
If her trips are for business, then isn't it tax deductible? Just wondering.
Again ... good for you, Future, for achieving your check mark, and doing it awesomely.
It is far-underrated as compared to "Born to Run." BTR might be the more well-known rock anthem, but "Thunder Road" and even "Jungleland" are better songs, in my opinion.
Yeah, I've never been as impressed with BTR (the song) as others seem to be. Strikes me as a little over-the-top.
Just to muck things up with WAW --- give her check at airport (if you're going to be there) in envelope and don't sign it. Oops! I wonder what she would be talking to OM about? You! Even if negatively, I'm sure.
Infidelitus interruptus! LOVE IT!!!
Puppy
I'll take a break from this dreary legal discussion, and say that playing at the open mic last night was awesome! The crowd dubbed me the hit of the night, and the other performers all came up to me and gave compliments. When I said I'd never sang into a microphone before, one guy said "I thought you were a pro who just came out tonight to have a little fun." Wow.
In other news, a certain woman made a point to show up as well, and I don't mean my estranged W. I met her a couple weeks ago, a friend of a friend. We hit it off, and she's managing to wiggle her way into my social circle. Hmmm...
Awesome! I did an open mic a couple of weeks ago - it's a great thing to do.
Does the place you went do it regularly?
I've found it's a good way to make "music friends" - there's typically a consistant group of people you run into doing these things.
It is great to achieve goals. Congrats on the mike night. I am one of them people who die a small death when speaking in public, let alone sing ---- I think you are very brave. I force myself into sitches where I have to speak even if it's a small group like at uni, just to challenge myself.
I do okay at public speaking, but I'm not a natural, so I did have to push myself to get up on that stage. My friends said I hid it well, but I was quaking inside. Definitely good to force yourself out of your comfort zone once in a while.
Just to muck things up with WAW --- give her check at airport (if you're going to be there) in envelope and don't sign it. Oops! I wonder what she would be talking to OM about? You! Even if negatively, I'm sure.
If her trips are for business, then isn't it tax deductible? Just wondering.
Ha! I DEFINITELY will not be at the airport with her. Why would I? She'll drop the kids off at my house the night before then fly out in the morning, as she always does. I don't even acknowledge what she's doing. I just take the kids (gladly), and she does whatever she does.
I'm sure she does deduct these trips. Not hard for her to justify that, and it's really none of my business. We're filing taxes separately now.
Awesome! I did an open mic a couple of weeks ago - it's a great thing to do.
Does the place you went do it regularly?
I've found it's a good way to make "music friends" - there's typically a consistant group of people you run into doing these things.
Ok, this is weird. Our situations are almost identical, and now you say you just did an open mic night too? Spooky!
The place I went is an awesome live music bar, and they host open mic night every Wednesday. Sometimes really good acts, sometimes not so much.
My buddy and I actually ran a ran a weekly acoustic open mic at a local bar back in 2008 for about 6 months, and I met a lot of great people doing that (and got to play a bunch too). Keep going - I imagine you'll find yourself in a community of local amateur musicians. Great way to GAL. Some of those guys actually formed a band that I went and saw a few weeks ago. Spent New Years eve with some of those guys too - guitar party I guess.
excellent future. im jealous.
you hear about the gordon lightfoot death hoax?
crazy. I heard sundown at least 4 times on the radio today. lol.
Wanted to make one comment on something made above:
Oh c'mon. I'm sure a bright guy like you could think of quite a few things.
We're told we can't control our spouse's adultery. And it's true -- we can't. But we damned sure don't have to sit idly by and make it EASY on them, either!
I could text her and tell her I thought I saw her house burning down on the news. Then text again a while later and say "False alarm! Sorry, it sure did look like your house!"
I want to go back to one of the first things I wrote to you and that is about walking away without saying a word. I think I am going to harp you on it from now on. Once they start going over seas to see a piece of crap, its time to dump them.
So tell us about your groupie? please no hairy armpits.
I can see her lyin' back in her satin dress
In a room where ya do what ya don't confess
Sundown ya better take care
If I find you been creepin' 'round my back stairs
Sundown ya better take care
If I find you been creepin' 'round my back stairs
She's been lookin' like a queen in a sailor's dream
And she don't always say what she really means
Sometimes I think it's a shame
When I get feelin' better when I'm feelin' no pain
Sometimes I think it's a shame
When I get feelin' better when I'm feelin' no pain
I can picture every move that a man could make
Getting lost in her lovin' is your first mistake
Sundown ya better take care
If I find you been creepin' 'round my back stairs
Sometimes I think it's a sin
When I feel like I'm winnin' when I'm losin' again
I can see her lookin' fast in her faded jeans
She's a hard lovin' woman, got me feelin' mean
Sometimes I think it's a shame
When I get feelin' better when I'm feelin' no pain
Sundown ya better take care
If I find you been creepin' 'round my back stairs
Sundown ya better take care
If I find you been creepin' 'round my back stairs
Sometimes I think it's a sin
When I feel like I'm winnin' when I'm losin' again
Now I have that song stuck in my head, Steve.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
good thing i didnt mention the wreck of the edmund fritzgerald... big lake they call Gitche Gumee
I want to go back to one of the first things I wrote to you and that is about walking away without saying a word. I think I am going to harp you on it from now on. Once they start going over seas to see a piece of crap, its time to dump them.
This feels right to me. All this talk about making trouble for her won't accomplish a thing. The fact is she left me, she moved out over a year ago, and she's living her life. Last year I thought maybe, just maybe, we could pull it back together, but she was too wrapped up into OM, and I won't be second choice. You were right to criticize me for the e-mail I sent back in November. There was no point to it. I should have just walked away without saying a word. All that e-mail did was more damage. Maybe I needed to drive her away to help me detach, so perhaps it wasn't all bad.
I am finally detaching from her for real. I can tell because I'm not expending any energy to do it. Last year when I was trying to detach it was an enormous effort for me, like holding back the tide. Now I'm just living my life and she's not in it.
you hear about the gordon lightfoot death hoax?
crazy. I heard sundown at least 4 times on the radio today. lol.
No, I hadn't heard that, but I don't listen to much radio. So funny you bring up Gordon Lightfoot though. Everyone compares my voice to his, both in tone and style. I grew up in the upper midwest near the Canadian border so I guess I picked it up. If I wanted to take the time to learn his hits, I could probably bill myself as a Gordon Lightfoot tribute guy. I might at least learn Sundown to add to my set list!
So much more fun talking about music than separation, affairs, and divorce.
So tell us about your groupie? please no hairy armpits.
LOL! She's cool, I talked with her quite a bit after I played. She was wicked impressed. She's considerably younger than me, but not too young, very fun, and very good looking. Haven't seen her armpits yet! We arranged to all go out again this weekend, as a group.
Future, I suggested what I did NOT to make trouble for your W but to perhaps help you avoid some *very* unpleasant proceedings.
Honestly, you seem like a nice guy but I think you are being very naive to what you could run up against. I am not saying you will run up against *anything* but in my experience, things don't get tied up in a neat and shiny bow no matter how much you hope or want them to.
It's not about making trouble. Only you can decide how you want to handle your W's affair. I am simply asking you to consider the fact that you have set a financial precedent in more ways than one that may come back to hurt you if you don't lay some legal framework soon. While this may not be the popular opinion, in this state a MC or a mediator (unless used in tandem with two attnys) just isn't the way to go.
I won't say anything more and I hope with all my heart things go really well for you.
Future, I suggested what I did NOT to make trouble for your W but to perhaps help you avoid some *very* unpleasant proceedings.
CityGirl, I wasn't referring to your advice, which I am considering very seriously. I was referring to the discussion of ways I could try to interrupt the purpose of my W's trip, i.e. infidelis interruptus, as Puppy put it.
I very much appreciate your input on all this, so don't abandon me now!
Is it reasonable that I could get an atty and have a complete agreement drafted in the next two weeks? I've already paid a mediator a couple thousand bucks, and we're 95% of the way there, so I'd hate to think all that is lost. The last time we discussed it, my W was waiting for my final comments before we gave the mediator the ok to draft the papers. We only had a couple minor sticking points.
Hey Future,
Ouch. She is still messing with you. What does a lawyer say about the costs of the D? She is really trying to drag you through the dirt for as long as she can, isn't she? My counsellor tells me to watch out for those 'hooks' my H sends me to try to keep me in the drama. I honestly think that the A is not nearly as much fun for them without the drama of the 3rd person. Its a huge ego boost for her to think that OM and you are both pining for her. Of course it is going to bother you that she is going to see this guy. That's normal, even if you ARE done with who she is now. It brings up a lot of pain and resentment and grief over what should have been between you two---but you don't have to confuse those with actually wanting to get back together with the person WHO SHE IS RIGHT NOW. Future, if I could bet the farm, someday, when this is all over, and she grows up, like you have through all of this, she will regret this and possibly want to give things another shot. But it sounds like she hasn't learned anything yet and she hasn't grown up. My SIL asked me if I'd consider getting back with H when this A crashes, which sees as a given, but he hasn't LEARNED anything. Your job is to do everything you can to save your marriage when you see the brokenness, but when the spouse insists on continuing with the A, you've got no choice but to move on.
I think that there are 2 different kinds of affairs. One kind of affair is when a friendship develops between 2 people slowly and the growing feelings catch them off guard. This likely fills a void from the marriage and seems to be one that is more likely to be "busted". The other kind of affair is more of an addiction. I think that kind of affair involves long distances, the internet, and even more fantasy. When you say you want to work on the marriage, and you do everything you can for as long as you can do it, and the unfaithful spouse doesn't want to stop or can't stop, you have to recognize that it has turned into something that no longer has anything at all to do with you. It has to do with the person being addicted to the high and the drama, which I think is actually sustained by long distances. If you never meet the kids or see the dirty house and never have to fight about who is going to unload the dishwasher, it can be pretty easy to sustain being "in love". My H is in that kind of affair--they have the same date over and over again--meeting at a 4 star hotel in a big city, and going to the best restaurant they can find. Neither of them has ever seen the other's house, seen how they interact with another human being, much less their family members. They can be these two people who look great on the outside for a weekend, but mask tremendous inner pain and turmoil on the inside. Your W's affair seems at least that exotic--if not more. Future, your W needs to learn something. She's on a path to learn it. Maybe in 5 or 10 years you will both come full circle, but you can't be on hold. Your staying in her drama only fuels her addiction. You have to see her as she is RIGHT NOW. Not the person she was or the person she could be. She might become that person in the future, and if she does become that person, and you are available, you can give it a good faith second chance. But you have to deal with who she is right now, and she has to learn more about herself and grow from this. I think she has to hit bottom, like an addict, before she will learn.
I wouldn't do the D before one year if it is going to cause MORE drama and cost you more, but Citygirl has the experience of your state and maybe you need to make a clean break sooner rather than later. If its to end the M emotionally, I think that people who are trying to live with honesty and integrity recognize the danger of jumping into another relationship to soon, anyway. One of my New Year's resolutions was to have a date in 2010. But I've been thinking maybe that's the last thing I need--maybe my resolution should be NOT to have a date in 2010!
Hope your gig went well! (PS, In your other thread, you asked about family time. I am doing one family time event a week for the kids. Tonight we are going to the movies together. So far, its not messing with my head--but part of it is that I'm looking at who my H is, really, right now, and I have no desire to be with him. The man he COULD be is really amazing, but who he right now has no appeal to me at all. Maybe someday he will become that amazing man, but for now, he feels like a 14 year old to me).
Thanks musclegal.
Yeah, I've realized that she was keeping me hooked in for security, for ego boost, and as a back up in case things didn't work out like she planned. I've really let her go now, in a way I never have before. I am so much stronger and healthier for it too.
W left to spend two weeks in OM's country yesterday. I picked up the kids Saturday afternoon from W's house, and D6 and S8 were fine, and looking forward to spending time with me. D4 was having a very hard time, and eventually went and hid to try to stop it all from happening. We had to carry her out of the house screaming "No Mommy! Don't go Mommy! I want Mommy!" W tried to convince her that it would be ok, but once a four year old gets into a place like that, nothing you say matters, because they know you're just trying to convince them it's not so bad, when they know it is. I buckled her into the car seat, screaming and crying. I was civil with W, but I didn't say much, just took care of business. W walked away from the car and I said "Bye W", she replied "See ya". My daughter screamed and cried during the whole drive from W's house to mine. I struggled to keep myself composed, and felt extreme anger toward my W.
Later that day W forwarded me an e-mail from the woman in OM's country she's supposedly staying with, saying how she's looking forward to her visiting. I assume this is all to try to persuade me that she's not going there to see OM. At this point, why does she care what I think?
Neither of them has ever seen the other's house, seen how they interact with another human being, much less their family members. They can be these two people who look great on the outside for a weekend, but mask tremendous inner pain and turmoil on the inside. Your W's affair seems at least that exotic--if not more.
I agree completely. OM has never seen the path of pain and destruction my W has left in her wake. Remember, she dumped her first H as well. OM thinks she's just wonderful, and nobody appreciates her.
Future, your W needs to learn something. She's on a path to learn it. Maybe in 5 or 10 years you will both come full circle, but you can't be on hold. Your staying in her drama only fuels her addiction. You have to see her as she is RIGHT NOW.
Exactly. I have finally broken away enough to see this, and I am not going to be on hold. Life is too short and I'm starting to have too much fun.
I wouldn't do the D before one year if it is going to cause MORE drama and cost you more, but Citygirl has the experience of your state and maybe you need to make a clean break sooner rather than later.
I don't think I need to push for the D. My wanting to was just as a way to get leverage over my W. As I'm letting it go, I just don't care all that much. As long as I can live my life without being all intertwined with hers, I'm fine. A legal separation gives me that.
One of my New Year's resolutions was to have a date in 2010. But I've been thinking maybe that's the last thing I need--maybe my resolution should be NOT to have a date in 2010!
Dating is very good to regain your sense of worth, and to have fun. You have to keep it very light though, because the danger of the rebound R is very high, and then you've just got another heartache to deal with.
Hope your gig went well! (PS, In your other thread, you asked about family time. I am doing one family time event a week for the kids. Tonight we are going to the movies together. So far, its not messing with my head--but part of it is that I'm looking at who my H is, really, right now, and I have no desire to be with him. The man he COULD be is really amazing, but who he right now has no appeal to me at all. Maybe someday he will become that amazing man, but for now, he feels like a 14 year old to me).
Thanks! As you probably read, it did go very well, and I'm looking forward to doing it again. I'm surprised you're doing planned family things. Last year I would've done it too, but now that I'm stepped back, I see it's not really a good thing, even though it might seem like that for the kids' sake. All it does is confuse them and prolong the inevitable. If your H isn't coming back, what's the point, and if he is, then he needs to declare that and ask you to take him back. Since he is the one that left the M, he should live with the consequences of leaving family time behind. If he still wants family time, he shouldn't have left the M.
My W is gone to OM's country for two weeks, and it couldn't have come at a better time. I'm making plans to take the kids down south for spring break with a couple other families. I'm motivated to pursue this music thing a little bit, just for fun. I'm doing well at work. I don't know what will happen with this woman I met, but it's awesome just to be back in the game. I don't obsess about my sitch all the time any more, in fact hardly at all. I think I've finally made it out of the woods.
To any newcomers out there who can't see any light at the end of their tunnel, hang in there. GAL the best you can, and try not to dwell on everything bad going on. You will feel better. It's taken me over a year, but I've finally made it through. I can honestly say I see my life being happy without my W. In fact, even if she did at some point indicate a desire to reconcile, I wouldn't be very interested. She'd have to pursue and convince me over a long period of time to even have a chance.
I think I prolonged getting here by continuing to pursue my W over the last year. I did ok not openly doing things to pursue her, but in my head, all I wanted was to desperately have my W back. Key word there is desperate, and it kept me from accepting the reality of my life. I see so many possibilities now and the fact that I don't have to deal with my W is lifting a huge weight off me.
She continues to intrude though. Yesterday in the mail each of the kids got a customized audio valentine. She put her voice on them, saying how much she loves each of the kids, and they were walking all around the house, playing them over and over. So even though she's thousands of miles away, I'm forced to hear her voice in my home. I know my kids love her dearly, so I don't blame them for that, but does she really not consider it intrusive to place her recorded voice into my home while she's gone on her trip? Or as Puppy says, she's doing it for the same reason a dog licks his ****s.
does she really not consider it intrusive to place her recorded voice into my home while she's gone on her trip?
I doubt if she considers your feelings at all, and if she knew it bothered you, would just say "get over it". She clearly does not care a hoot about any of this has affected you, or even the kids. But, she doesn't want to be forgotten either. Weird!
You have taken the time to do what you thought was right, and now you are over it and moving on. I salute you, and hope for the best as you do move on.
"the only girl a boy can trust is his guitar"
Sometimes I think it's a sin
When I feel like I'm winnin' when I'm losin' again
sing that with emotion!
My W is gone to OM's country for two weeks, and it couldn't have come at a better time. I'm making plans to take the kids down south for spring break with a couple other families. I'm motivated to pursue this music thing a little bit, just for fun. I'm doing well at work. I don't know what will happen with this woman I met, but it's awesome just to be back in the game. I don't obsess about my sitch all the time any more, in fact hardly at all. I think I've finally made it out of the woods.
To any newcomers out there who can't see any light at the end of their tunnel, hang in there. GAL the best you can, and try not to dwell on everything bad going on. You will feel better. It's taken me over a year, but I've finally made it through. I can honestly say I see my life being happy without my W. In fact, even if she did at some point indicate a desire to reconcile, I wouldn't be very interested. She'd have to pursue and convince me over a long period of time to even have a chance.
I think I prolonged getting here by continuing to pursue my W over the last year. I did ok not openly doing things to pursue her, but in my head, all I wanted was to desperately have my W back. Key word there is desperate, and it kept me from accepting the reality of my life. I see so many possibilities now and the fact that I don't have to deal with my W is lifting a huge weight off me.
Good Frame of Mind.
I am hitting this frame of mind more and more.
"the only girl a boy can trust is his guitar"
Sometimes I think it's a sin
When I feel like I'm winnin' when I'm losin' again
sing that with emotion!
Ahhh, Gordy. LOVE Gordy. "Dreamland," "Old Dan's Records," "Song for a Winter's Night," "Daylight Katie."
and when you hold me tight,
how can life be anything
but beautiful . . .Puppy
How are you doing future?
Thanks for asking Gnosis-
I'm doing great. I haven't been on here because I needed to move on, and I have. I have checked on the board from time to time to see how other situations are progressing.
My W was gone on her trip for two weeks, and I barely thought about her at all. I was having a ball. A dozen of us rented a limo to take to a HUGE basketball game a couple weeks ago, including a certain lady. We had a blast. The most fun night I've had in many years. I have gone out with her once since then as well, but I'm taking it VERY slow. Just having fun. I also ran a local race last weekend. Good stuff.
My W got back a couple days ago, and we've made a plan to finish up our paperwork.
Meanwhile, I'm playing another open mic night tonight. I spent the last few weeks preparing some new songs. A large group of my friends is going to be there to watch and support me. I'm starting to feel the nerves again, but it shouldn't be nearly as bad as the first time.
Way to go Future. It looks like you've finally found the medicine.
I'd really like to keep in touch with you so if you're on FB join the look up the DB group. My last name there is the same as here. Send me a request.
Good luck for tonight.
Meanwhile, I'm playing another open mic night tonight. I spent the last few weeks preparing some new songs. A large group of my friends is going to be there to watch and support me. I'm starting to feel the nerves again, but it shouldn't be nearly as bad as the first time.
I'm thinking Thin Lizzy's "The Boys Are Back in Town," or maybe "Roll Me Away" by Seger.
Took a look down a westbound road,
Right away I made my choice
Headed out to my big two-wheeler,
I was tired of my own voice
Took a bead on the northern plains
And just rolled that power on
Twelve hours out of mackinaw city
Stopped in a bar to have a brew
Met a girl and we had a few drinks
And I told her what I'd decided to do
She looked out the window a long long moment
Then she looked into my eyes
She didn't have to say a thing,
I knew what she was thinkin'
Roll, roll me away,
Won't you roll me away tonight
I too am lost, I feel double-crossed
And I'm sick of what's wrong and what's right
We never even said a word,
We just walked out and got on that bike
And we rolled
And we rolled clean out of sight
We rolled across the high plains
Deep into the mountains
Felt so good to me
Finally feelin' free
Somewhere along a high road
The air began to turn cold
She said she missed her home
I headed on alone
Stood alone on a mountain top,
Starin' out at the great divide
I could go east, I could go west,
It was all up to me to decide
Just then I saw a young hawk flyin'
And my soul began to rise
And pretty soon
My heart was singin'
Roll, roll me away,
I'm gonna roll me away tonight
Gotta keep rollin, gotta keep ridin',
Keep searchin' till I find what's right
And as the sunset faded
I spoke to the faintest first starlight
And I said next time
Next time
We'll get it right
gotta go with thin lizzy
Irish bands rock
Ahhh, Seger, LOVE Seger. From my home state. Grew up listening to him. He's one of those singers who's impossible to emulate.
An acoustic version of Thin Lizzy? Would be a freaky thing to try, but I can't see how it could work. The rockin' bass lines are so much a part of their songs. Someone did an acoustic version of "Born To Run" last night, kind of strange, but cool.
Last night went well. I had much less stage fright than last time. Half the people in the bar were my friends who came out to see me, which was awesome. I played
"Old Man" by Neil Young
"Hard Luck Woman" by KISS
"Another Saturday Night" by Cat Stevens
Since the spring weather has finally started to arrive here, I took a chance and finished with "Sunshine On My Shoulders" by John Denver. I'd been playing and singing it with my daughter over the last few days, and I got pretty good with it, so I thought I'd give it a whirl. The bar crowd didn't quite know what to make of it, but some of the ladies were swooning, so that's fine with me!
Way to go Future. It looks like you've finally found the medicine.
I'd really like to keep in touch with you so if you're on FB join the look up the DB group. My last name there is the same as here. Send me a request.
Thanks Gnosis. I'll see if I can find the group.
LOVE "Old Man" by Neil Young!! I have it on my iTunes, along with a few others of his, including the one from "Philadelphia," which is just plain haunting.
Puppy
An interesting convergence of all this is that I had always thought I'd play "Old Man" at my Grandfather's funeral when he died. Anyway, he died back around 8 years ago, but we had just had our first child (my son), and subsequently my W told me she didn't want to live with me anymore and got her own apartment (first WAW episode in my M). She ended up giving up the apartment and coming back after only a matter of weeks, but I was such an emotional wreck over the whole thing I didn't have any chance to prepare to play at my Grandfather's funeral, and so I didn't. I've always regretted that. In my head I thought of that last night and played for him.
Yeah, as my own fog is lifting, I'm seeing what a drama filled, roller coaster, emotionally draining experience my M was most of the time. My W hated being M to me, for reasons I don't fully understand. She pursued me like crazy, pushed to get married, pushed to get a new house (I had a house when we met, but it was too modest for her I guess), pushed to have kids, spent money like crazy, insisted on getting a nanny and maid we couldn't afford, and then hated all of it, had an A and left me. I was an emotional punching bag for her, and I'm realizing much of my own stress, crabbiness, and depression was in reaction to her. Right after our son was born she sent a letter to my Mom, without my knowledge, thanking her for raising such a fine man, and saying how great I am and how much she loves me. Less than three months later she was moving out and threatening divorce because I was intolerable as a H. What the ???? Such was my life during our M.
As I'm embracing my life now, pursuing my own interests and passions, hanging with people who really like me, and getting the attention of some pretty impressive ladies, I look back on those years and wonder why I tolerated it. I blame myself somewhat, as I think my W really needs man who will call her on her crap. I don't consider myself weak, but when faced with aggressive, selfish, emotional, irrational behavior, I just wonder "Why are you acting this way?" rather than putting my foot down. I grew up with two brothers and no sisters, and my Mom is a rock, so I wasn't exposed to much extreme female behavior.
It's still continuing. My W, who has now left me, and is living on MUCH less money than we had together, has already promised the kids all sorts of stuff. Disneyworld trip, a new dog and cat, a new house in a nice neighborhood, a horse for our youngest D when she turns eight, a dirt bike, etc, etc, etc. She has gone on four international trips in the last year. She's continually getting her hair and nails done. Her Mom and I just shake our heads in wonder.
Time to get the legal paperwork done.
My wife did the same things too. She wrote me a card a month before she d'd me saying how great I was. Pushed for the house, kids, and even talked about getting a cleaning service! spooky. You sound like you are doing real well now, keep doing it!
I've now crossed into the bizzaro world. I needed to get some addresses for some kids in my son's class to send out birthday party invitations. My son chose to have his party at my house, so I'm in charge of it. I called my W to see if she had the addresses, and she playfully said "If you bring over a bottle of red wine, you can have them." I replied "No thanks, I'll just take them over the phone."
What the ?????
Future,
Two possible things:
1) She's testing your resolve to see if you're really done with her.
2) She just caught wind of the fact that there is an OW in your picture. Her jealousy button was pushed.
I liked your response.
I think it's number 1, although maybe it's number 2, if someone she knows saw my lady friend and me out and about. We were surrounded by tens of thousands of others at the basketball game, and we were acting very friendly and having a lot of fun. Perhaps someone she knows saw us. Or maybe simply the kids told her that I had them stay at Grandma's house overnight while she was gone on her trip. Ha!
At the end of the day it doesn't matter does it?
You've charted your course and are at peace with your decision. THAT is the most important thing.
Keep on enjoying your life because it's too short to waste on regrets.
Nice job future! I am sure that one really got to her. Not that you were trying to get to her.
Thanks v1olin! You're right, I wasn't "trying" to get to her, a good sign I think. I just don't want to deal with her.
Full court press is on. Coached my son's basketball game this morning, last game of the winter season. W brought my son and daughters. Afterwards, W comes up all smiles and says "How about a picture with your team?" So I posed with the team, then she came over and said "H, you do such a great job coaching. You should consider a second career." I smiled a bit, but didn't really reply, nor did I look at her.
I have completely walled myself off. Seems to be working, as I'm managing to stay detached.
Trying to modernize my repetoire a bit. I'm working on "3 am" by Matchbox 20". Cool song. Guitar is pretty easy, but Rob Thomas is an incredible vocalist. We'll see...
Good answer!
Looks like you're having a lot of fun. You deserve it.
I could use a little advice. Last night I had a bit of a confrontation with my W about her crossing a boundary, and as usual, she wants to paint me as the unreasonable selfish one.
Yesterday I picked up the kids from her, first time since she got back from her trip. We left and shortly after I got a text message from her that said my son forgot something and she'd bring it over later that evening. I replied and said sure. The fact that she didn't say what it was made me a bit suspicious, but just a bit.
She shows up and hands my son a little stuffed animal. He seemed happy to get it. W and I discuss some child scheduling stuff and she leaves. Shortly later I find that the stuffed animal was something she brought my son from OM's country. Now I don't care a whole lot about my son having this stuffed animal, but I set a boundary for my W that stuff from OM's country is to stay at her house. I don't want it in my house as it feels disrespectful and intrusive to me. She knows this.
So as usual she has ignored one of my boundaries and intruded into my home. I called her up and stayed calm and said "I thought I made myself clear before. I do not want stuff from <OM's country> in my house." She said "H, listen to me. You are putting your needs above your son's. He loves that toy. You are being selfish." I said "It's going back with him, and not coming back here, or it's going in the trash." She said "Your selfishness is incredible. This has nothing to do with him, it's just leftover cr*p between us." I refused to get pulled into an argument. I said "It's a simple boundary, don't cross it again." She said "Why don't you hurt your son again", and she hung up. She was referring to the first time this came up, and I did deal with it poorly because I was caught off guard at a weak time, on the first day of school last fall, when my son pulled a shirt out of his backpack that was from OM's country. He wanted to wear it to school. I wasn't quite able to maintain my composure, and I told him he had to bring the shirt back to Mommy's house. He said "It's from <OM's country>. Don't you like <OM's country>?" I said "No, I don't." He asked why, and I said with a little anger in my voice "Ask Mommy." He got quite upset and had a bad day at school because of it. I felt horrible, and I later talked with my son and made it ok, but that's when I told my W to keep that stuff at her house.
I really don't care a whole lot about a stuffed animal. I felt I needed to make a stand against her continual disrespect of my boundaries. I knew she'd try to turn it around, but I didn't let her. The way I see it, about a dozen decisions led to that confrontation, the first eleven of which were made by her, but she says I'm selfish because I'm making the 12th one.
My son left the toy at her house, and never mentioned it once. She didn't even call to ask him if he wanted her to bring it to him, and she didn't tell me what it was when she said she had to bring something over. She just wanted to test my boundary, and for once, I maintained it.
Opinions? Am I being petty? I won't actually make any big deal of it and take the toy from son or anything. As musclegal has said here before, it's amazing how friendly and reasonable the WAS is when you're going along with them, but as soon as you oppose them in any way, the claws come out.
It sounds like she is baiting you into being the "bad guy". She knew what would happen and it is sick that she would use her own son to get to you. Your wife is being a beeeotch. Sorry for that but I have had it with women for a while!
Keep enforcing the boundaries.
I agree -- maintain the boundary. She knew exactly what she was doing. Your son didn't ask for the toy or anything, did he? It's not as if you really care much about her, but you did ask for the boundary and only you can remove it, IMHO.
This just gets better and better. My MIL told me something hilarious last night. When my W stopped to drop the stuffed animal off for my son, we discussed childcare plans for the summer. She had previously told me she was going to have a neighbor girl watch the kids for her during her work days, and she asked if I could find someone to watch them at my house too, so the kids don’t have to be put into childcare. I said I’d look into it. Little did I know she was assuming/hoping I’d fail, then I’d have to hand the kids to her on my days so I could work.
One of the women in my social group has a teenage daughter, and I discussed the possibility of her daughter watching the kids for me on my days over the summer. The daughter was very excited and we made the arrangements. Our families have hung out together at parties and such over the past year, and my kids love her, and she's very good with them. This is the family we did some social things with last fall that I know my W heard about from the kids. In one of my previous threads I discussed how my W hunted me down at a basketball game to see if I was there with this other woman. Note that this is not the woman I am casually dating now, but just a friend in my social group.
Sunday night I told my W I had made arrangements for the kids over the summer, and we had a nice calm rational discussion about it. She wanted to know a little about the girl, and I told her, and although she seemed a bit nervous, she took it in stride.
Last night my MIL told me right afterward I talked with my W, my W called her all upset and raving. She said “H is having his girlfriend’s daughter watch the kids over the summer!” MIL was confused and said “What are you talking about?” W said “H has arranged for his girlfriend’s daughter to watch the kids!” MIL is like “Who are you talking about?” Finally W had to say the woman's name, I'm sure from talking to the kids, as I've never mentioned her name. MIL said “She is not H’s girlfriend.” W gets nasty and says “How do you know?” MIL says “W, she is not H's girlfriend.” W gets more agitated and says “How can YOU possibly know that?” MIL said “I know things, and she is not H's girlfriend.” Then W gets more upset and says “Are you my Mom, or his Mom?” MIL says “I’m your Mom, and she is not his girlfriend.” W finally gave in and said “Does he have a girlfriend?” MIL says “I don’t know.” Truly hilarious, then W with newfound swagger says “I wish he did have a girlfriend, it would be good for him.”
I was in tears laughing the whole time MIL was telling me this. Wow.
LOL! I love it man! This is what is in store for her. So what if you DID have a girlfriend? and so what if you did have her daughter babysit? The WAW just thinks that they control ALL variables of the sitch don't they?
Hey Future, glad to see you're doing OK.
So I guess #2 was also a good assumption:
2) She just caught wind of the fact that there is an OW in your picture. Her jealousy button was pushed.
What's done is done bro.
This still applies:
Keep on enjoying your life because it's too short to waste on regrets.
The above quote is what is yanking her chain and will continue to bug her for a long time. That's not your problem. She chose the path she wanted to take. Now she's starting to see the consequences. I'm glad for you that you're on good terms with MIL.
The only additional thing I have to say is take the appropriate steps to protect your kids from leaving the country.
Exactly! She has nothing to say about it, and she knows it, which is why she said nothing to me. Her ability to show me one thing while strongly feeling another is impressive! I would love for her to say one thing about it to me.
As you say v1olin, this is all an issue of control, and she hates how all this is spinning out of her control. She is now realizing she has no control over me anymore. Last year if we had had a phone argument, within a day I would have been trying to smooth things over. Not any more.
The only additional thing I have to say is take the appropriate steps to protect your kids from leaving the country.
My kids won't be leaving the country. No way.
And it just keeps going.
Just got an e-mail from my W that said she's giving up her work in OM's country, and she won't be going there anymore.
She said she was going to tell me in person, but since my phone call was so hostile, she decided to e-mail instead.
What is going on?????
OM dumped her.
Work is on longer available in OM's country so she is playing the part of the hero by saying she is giving it up.
I would ignore that email. No response at all.
I agree with CG. Something went wrong with her wonderful fantasy of living the exotic life of luxury in a foreign country with her lover.
It could be he dumped her, could be the job didn't pan out, could be financial... or it could be you finally putting your foot down on her neck and making her realize that there is no way in hell you will let your children leave the country.
Who knows, who cares. She is a lying, deceitful, cowardly and fogged out irrational creature. Trying to decipher and understand it will only drive you insane so stop doing it.
Keep moving on Mr Future Rock Star... there are new women on the horizon. Keep your eyes focused on the correct objective.
EDIT: Additionally...
If OM dropped her she is following plan B. i.e. Drop Future a bone and have him come yapping back like a good puppy. Keep stringing him along to get what she wants until a better option comes along. It's called survival instinct.
Naturally, all of the above is supposition.
I think OM had already effectively dumped her last fall. Her mother essentially told me so. Her subsequent nasty attitude toward me and our M then finally was the last straw for me and I dumped her too. I think she then put together her ridiculous plan to do this international work to try to entice OM back. Sounds like her plan failed, now she's all alone, and she's realizing she's lost control of half of her kids' lives.
My gut tells me she wants to get something back from me to ease her anxiety over my apparent moving on. I will ignore her message.
Keep moving on Mr Future Rock Star... there are new women on the horizon. Keep your eyes focused on the correct objective.
Thanks Gnosis. Too old to be a rock star, but not too old to have some fun!
W sent me a long detailed e-mail describing why it would be bad for us to have teenage girls watch our kids for the summer, and how we should put the kids into summer camp, blah, blah, blah.
The whole idea of having teenage girls watch the kids was hers to begin with!
Tell her no problem on the camp as long as she is willing to foot the bill between the difference of the in-house babysitter vs. camp. You also will need compensation for the time you put in finding the sitter as per her request.
That, OR, Just tell her that you know this particular teenage girl very well and you trust her. She just doesnt want THAT teenage girl watching HER kids. I say stick with your plan.
W sent me a long detailed e-mail describing why it would be bad for us to have teenage girls watch our kids for the summer, and how we should put the kids into summer camp, blah, blah, blah.
coming out your mouth with your blah blah blah. cracks me up everytime. lol.
Yeah, me too. She has not disowned her daughter or anything, but she thinks her daughter is being selfish and reckless, and it's hurting her grandkids, who she adores.
Hey Future,
I've been catching up with your posts. Its good to read them. It seems like there are 2 sides to divorce--the side that feels empowered and the side that gets sucked in and feels terrible. I've been on the downside lately. Which, as you predicted, probably comes from having too much contact with H. Anyway, I read something interesting on another site...that when Napolean found out someone was going to betray him, he made a comment that there would be no tirades, no screaming, "just a quiet and definitive servering of ties." Its hard to do when you have young children, but I know that the less contact I have, the better I feel. H has the boys until Sunday. I'm going to take down our wedding pictures, which have been prominently displayed in our...actually MY bedroom, now...and replace them with photos I've taken. That will feel good to do.
The stuffed animal incident was totally unnecessary. She LOVES getting you emotionally engaged with her. She stages it. After reading about the earlier drama she induced in your marriage (right after your child was born???), she LOVES the drama and loves having the leading role. If you aren't in the play with her, or even in the audience, she will have to change her behavior toward you. But she is clearly trying to up the anty to get you watching again, so be careful about that.
Glad to hear about the burgeoning music career and the new romance! It gives the rest of us hope and is a good reminder that there is a better life out there than staying with someone who, in the end, gets some sort of pleasure out of hurting their spouse. We all deserve more than being someone's "Plan B". Oh, and for the teenager babysitter, stick with your plan. You get to make that choice for when you have the kids. If she doesn't want to have a sitter she can enroll them in day camps when she has them. That's her decision.
Hi musclegal-
I love your Napolean comment! Very similar to the attitude gucci preaches here. Something else gucci says is "The one who cares less about the relationship controls it." Good stuff to remember.
I've been surprised how easy it has been to cut off nearly all contact with my W. I never initiate contact unless absolutely necessary for kid business, and then only by text or e-mail, and as short as possible. Even during child transitions, I act quickly, and I avoid looking at her. If she tries to have a converstation, I give short one or two word answers. I can get through a transition without even feeling like I've been in her presence. It has done wonders for my detachment.
I definitely agree you should take those wedding pictures down. We avoid doing stuff like that because it hurts, but taking the hurt all at once is better than the continual nagging pain each time you look at them. The healing can start.
I totally agree my W loves getting my attention. I was always the one who would try to "make everything better" when we'd have a fight. I now look back on the emotional blackmail and manipulation she used on me, and I feel pathetic for allowing it. No more. I'm sure she is feeling very insecure about how she has apparently lost all control over me. She is treating me with considerable respect now.
There is definitely a better life out there than pining for a person who doesn't want you. It takes time, but keep working on detaching. In my case, my kids don't seem to mind the loss of the family time. I am in such a good mood all the time now, they seem to be reacting to that.
Yeah, my plan for caring for the kids over the summer is up to me. She's now hitting me with the requirement that an adult be nearby and accessible in order for her to feel safe leaving her kids in the care of a 17 year old teenager. Whatever. I'll do what feels right to me.
Do you have a thread here?
I'm surprised I'm finding myself feeling very angry at my W. I'm still feeling good about my single life, and having fun, but whenever any thoughts of her come into my head, I have a VERY angry reaction. Where is this coming from now? I guess it shows I still have some detachment, or healing, to do.
I don't talk to her, I barely communicate at all. I don't show her anger, I'm not cold, just gone.
Why has this reared up all of a sudden?
I'm surprised I'm finding myself feeling very angry at my W. <SNIP> Why has this reared up all of a sudden?
Because you've started posting on other people's threads. What is happening is: You're recalling her actions and recounting them as you share. This makes you angry. Also, you're angry with yourself for not having listened and followed some of the advice you got. And that's OK... just stop beating yourself up about it.
You're giving good advice to others BTW and I hope you stick around.
Yeah, that's probably it. I was feeling pretty p*ssed after I posted a couple days ago, but I felt I needed to be blunt about what I went through.
the very nature of love is to grieve when its over ....
there is no orderly progression in the stages of bereavement and I sometimes wonder if acceptance really is the final stage.
Hey Future, you asked if I had a thread. I started one this weekend.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1969441#Post1969441Its kind of in a different vein--I was trying NOT to talk about my H or the marriage in the thread, but to focus on me. I had to delete several sections for digressing...But, I think the LBS's spend a lot of time focused on the WAS's (at least I do...spend way too much time thinking about what H is feeling, thinking, doing, instead of what am I thinking, feeling, doing...), so we need to practice focusing on ourselves...
McQueen, maybe the final stage is not acceptance but growth??? I don't know. I still cycle back to "stuck" a lot.
Been a while, so I'll give a quick update:
Last wednesday I sent an e-mail to my W plainly stating that I decided to take care of my summer child care needs with the teenage girl I made arrangements with. I didn't ask her anything, just said I'm satisfied the kids will be safe and happy in the girl's care.
Afterwards, no response and no contact from my W in five days. I had a little anxiety over it, but I'm getting used to her reactions. Her problems, not mine.
During our child transition yesterday I didn't look at or speak to her. No "Happy Easter!", no nothing. Kids came running up and gave me hugs. She told me "If the kids miss me and want to talk to me, call me no matter how late." I responded with a simple "ok", without looking at her, and continued doding on the girls. She got in her car and drove away.
Last night she called to talk to the kids, and she tried twice to get me on the phone. My son held the phone out and said "Mommy wants to ask you if D5 is asleep." I replied to my son without taking the phone, "She is asleep, I just left her." My son pulled the phone back and said "Daddy says she's asleep." Then after a little more conversation my son held out the phone again and said "Mommy wants to talk to you." I took the phone this time and said hello. She had a request for me to put a note in D6's backpack regarding her doctor's appt tomorrow. Something that could have easily been handled via text or e-mail. I just said "ok" in response, then silence. She sounded defeated, and said "Well... ok... have a nice night..." I replied "You too" and hung up. I am so determined to give her nothing I was kicking myself for even saying "You too".
This has been very interesting. In the entire time of our M, whenever I tried to hold my ground, she would have a temper tantrum, and I'd feel like I did some horrible thing and give in. Seeing her respond to me with submission and respect now is almost surreal. The fact that she's doing so tells me that all those temper tantrums in the past were manipulation, pure and simple.
It makes one wonder when the marriage was real, not so?
I hate to say, but she never was a much of a real partner. She was a bully most of the time in our M, using her emotional manipulation to get her way.
When we got married, we agreed to wait one year before we talked about having kids. One year. About nine months into our M, my W approached me and said she wanted us to start trying. I said "I thought we were going to wait a year." She said "Yes, but might take a while, and I want to be pregnant by the time we've been married a year." So far she was being nice about it.
She came into our M burdened with massive student loans, and I had been trying to get them paid down. That, along with her liberal spending habits, made it financially difficult for me to see how we could afford to have a baby. I told her so, but wasn't getting through, so I went through our monthly budget with her and said I didn't see how we could afford to have her quit work or pay for full time daycare right now. Then she snapped, pushed away my paper, and shouted "You're just a coward!" and stormed out of the room.
Hard for me to admit now, but I sheepishly sought her out, and acted as though I had done some terrible thing and needed her forgiveness. I mean, I must have, why else would she lash out like that, right? She withheld herself, making sure I "suffered" a little, before softening.
That same story was replayed over and over throughout our M.
I can see me playing the same role throughout our M, also. We train people how to treat us. Where I (and you) are at now we simply won't tolerate it.
That's what Dr. Phil says, we teach people how to treat us. I hate accepting that truth, but it is true, and I taught my W to treat me like crap. She was a good student and learned well. I can understand how stressful it is for her to be retrained after all these years!
Interesting concept! It is a good way to think of it.
Hi Future,
Its true. We try hard to be "nice" but in the end it is so important to hold your ground. I kept feeling like I had been erased in my marriage, and it was from constantly giving in. I see that to a certain extent, I brought it upon myself by being too nice and by letting my H get his way almost all the time. With a different spouse, that might have been OK, but it encourages someone who has selfish/manipulative tendencies to become even MORE selfish and manipulative, and the other to become a victim. I first clicked on your thread because of the title about the W not regretting the A. It struck a chord--I kept feeling like I had allowed my H to be so selfish that he thought he could have an A and still stay married. He says he NEVER wanted a D, so it seems he got to the point where he felt like there were no consequences for his actions. Anyway, it's a cycle, and I see that it takes two to tango. Its hard to see it when its going on, but the more distance you get, the clearer it becomes. Enabling, taking on too much responsibility, erasing your wants/needs by giving in to those of your spouse, etc...in the end, if we allow it to happen, we help bring the situation upon ourselves...
I switched my phone so that H's calls go directly to voicemail. It lets me hear the message and decide how I want to reply. It also lets me reply ONLY to the part of the message about the kids or business, and not reply to whatever else he has in there (and he usually includes something else about his emotional state to try and draw me back in...) I can then reply with a text or an e-mail. I'm even getting rid of our land line (which is only used by telemarketers anyway, it seems), and I got the boys their own cell phones for Easter. When I call them, now, I can speak directly to them and can limit my contact with H. The less contact I have, the better I feel, so its important to listen to those feelings and act accordingly. And the boys are free to call their dad or text him whenever they want, and that increased contact is really good for them, I think. The cell phones were free, and end up costing about the same as the landline--as long as they don't lose them!
Hi musclegal-
Yeah, I have to blame myself to some degree for creating the monster. I think your cell phone plan sounds good. Keep up the no contact and get yourself emotionally and mentally healthy. I'm so happy how well it's worked for me. Amazing how clear things look when you finally get some distance. I'm embarassed at how I behaved. I truly was pathetic. I can't beat myself up too much, as I know it was out of an effort to be loving and caring. I'm learning that tough love is very appropriate in many cases!
Speaking of selfish and manipulative, got another bomb dropped on me yesterday. My STBXW served me with papers and is suing me for full custody of the kids. Guess she doesn't like that I've moved on and can't be manipulated by her. Spoke with my attorney this afternoon. He thinks the court will opt to maintain the status quo, since it's been working for us, but I'm looking at thousands of dollars of attorneys fees. Five grand to retain the guy! The hits just keep on comin'.
Ugggh!
What state are you in Future?
Puppy
NY
Future... ugh! I just had some horrible gut feeling it would come to this. I assume somebody will have to initiate a Separation Agreement or Divorce Decree now that custody papers have been presented?
If you are going to retain the attny for the custody portion just get it all done at once. Do not go for anymore mediation or such BS. She took mediation WAS OFF the table when she hit you with these papers for custody. Sorry Charlie, her ship has sailed and now you go full steam with an attny.
Have your attny petition the court for immediate reimbursement for your legal fees. Do not fool around and just do it.
Future, this time I sincerely hope you LISTEN and FOLLOW CityGirl's advice.
The same state as CityGirl. As many of my friends told me, I should have gotten my legal agreement in place while she was flying high in her A, and was feeling sorry for me. Now it's going to be ugly.
I discussed with my atty filing to get reimbursed for my legal expenses, but he said because of our income discrepency, I have no chance at that. He's supposed to be one of the best divorce/custody guys in town, and he said the atty my W retained almost never does family court stuff! What is she thinking?!
I am going to get this all done in one fell swoop now. I will file for divorce or separation, depending on what he advises. I was feeling so much better about myself, I guess I just wanted to enjoy that for a while before dealing with this garbage. Times up. Good thing is, I still feel great about myself and my life!
My friends and advisors have warned me that when the hammer comes down on her, she'll almost certainly try to disarm me by offering reconciliation. Wow.
Yes, having a legal agreement in place would have been best but since you don't you have to work with what is in front of you.
I think you need to ask your attny the following questions:
The two of you had a verbal agreement to work through ALL issues (custody, asset allocation, support) through mediation. In NY a verbal agreement is binding. Now that she has breached the verbal agreement what are your options?
It is my understanding that when one spouse presents another spouse with a custody request or asset allocation request it must also include a petition for divorce or separation.
Since you and your W had a verbally binding agreement to pursue mediation, I would ask your attny about filing a petition to request immediate reimbursement to YOU from your W for your legal fees. And, be sure the reimbursement is not drawn on joint funds.
She has breached an agreement and therefore set the tone for this next phase. You both agreed mediation, she walked away without even letting you know, served you with papers and now you are forced to retain counsel when that wasn't the verbally binding agreement the two of you had. Think about that.
Thanks so much CityGirl for your advice. My atty did tell me the court will almost certainly rule on maintaining the status quo. We've had a verbal agreement we've lived under for the last 15 months, with no real issues.
I actually have to go right now, I'll respond more later this evening.
Thanks again!
Obviously your attny knows best but the circumstances you would be petitioning the courts for legal fees are not due to income, they are due to the breach of the verbal contract the two of you had to use mediation to dissolve the marriage.
IMO those are two separate issues and one has nothing to do with the other.
I would also haul my ass to that attnys office tomorrow and find out what rights you have in lowering the monthly support you are giving her w/o an agreement in place. Do not let that come back and bite you in the ass. Again, she breached the verbal agreement and very well could be set to file a motion of her own for immediate court ordered support.
My friends and advisors have warned me that when the hammer comes down on her, she'll almost certainly try to disarm me by offering reconciliation. Wow.
Yes, that does tend to be the usual script. Sad, ain't it??
Puppy
Listen to citygirl! Fight back but don't be nasty about it to her. Be cold as ice with the law but act like everything is cool when you deal with her.
I might get booed for that but...
no whistles Puppy?
Future,
Even if you lose on the atty fees, it might be worth it as a tactic to bring the suit. She will see that you mean business and that it could cost her not to play fair.
I'm an attorney--I don't do divorces (thankfully), but sometimes its worth it to file something even if you have only a slim chance of winning. Ask the attorney if he thinks it would be helpful--or if it could backfire and make the judge think you are unreasonable. But CityGirl's language in a motion, that she breached a verbal agreement that was working well, could also give background to the judge that might help you in the long run. Future, I've worried about my H doing this (actually, just asking for shared custody--I've got the kids most of the time), but I think he doesn't WANT them any more than he has them. My impression of your W was that she liked the freedom of having time to date and time to herself. I'm surprised she pulled this...maybe its a financial thing.
I think it is all about her getting back at him because of the teenage baby sitter. She thinks that the baby sitters mom is Future's girlfriend right?
The two of you had a verbal agreement to work through ALL issues (custody, asset allocation, support) through mediation. In NY a verbal agreement is binding. Now that she has breached the verbal agreement what are your options?
It is my understanding that when one spouse presents another spouse with a custody request or asset allocation request it must also include a petition for divorce or separation.
Since you and your W had a verbally binding agreement to pursue mediation, I would ask your attny about filing a petition to request immediate reimbursement to YOU from your W for your legal fees. And, be sure the reimbursement is not drawn on joint funds.
She has breached an agreement and therefore set the tone for this next phase. You both agreed mediation, she walked away without even letting you know, served you with papers and now you are forced to retain counsel when that wasn't the verbally binding agreement the two of you had. Think about that.
Thanks CityGirl-
We certainly were working through mediation, and I was intending to continue. In fact, I had just prepared a new draft proposal to send her two days before I got served. I had been stalling over the last couple months, because I was feeling better about myself, and was avoiding dealing with all this. Can she use my stalling as an argument that I broke the verbal agreement?
We have no joint funds, so not worried about that.
It is my understanding that when one spouse presents another spouse with a custody request or asset allocation request it must also include a petition for divorce or separation.
I was shocked that the papers only dealt with custody, not divorce, not separation, not support. She has absolutely no grounds to sue me for divorce, so I guess she's leaving the door open for me to sue her.
Even if you lose on the atty fees, it might be worth it as a tactic to bring the suit. She will see that you mean business and that it could cost her not to play fair.
I'm an attorney--I don't do divorces (thankfully), but sometimes its worth it to file something even if you have only a slim chance of winning. Ask the attorney if he thinks it would be helpful--or if it could backfire and make the judge think you are unreasonable. But CityGirl's language in a motion, that she breached a verbal agreement that was working well, could also give background to the judge that might help you in the long run. Future, I've worried about my H doing this (actually, just asking for shared custody--I've got the kids most of the time), but I think he doesn't WANT them any more than he has them. My impression of your W was that she liked the freedom of having time to date and time to herself. I'm surprised she pulled this...maybe its a financial thing.
Hi musclegal-
I'll discuss it with my atty and see what he says. He's not available to meet until next Tuesday. He said I don't even need to attend the initial hearing. It'll only take 10 minutes, and is just a formality. He said the court will appoint atty's to represent my kids, and then adjourn until a later date.
You're a lawyer, so you certainly don't need my advice, but make sure you proactively protect yourself against whatever your H might pull. Don't know what state you're in, but if he wants partial custody, he very well might get it, unless you can show him to be unfit.
Everyone is shocked my W did this, as they think the same as you, that she likes having time to herself. There is something else going on here. A friend of mine here thinks she is insanely jealous over my moving on and getting "strangers" involved in the kids lives, including someone she thinks I'm involved with romantically.
I think it is all about her getting back at him because of the teenage baby sitter. She thinks that the baby sitters mom is Future's girlfriend right?
Hi v1olin-
Exactly. She's lost her control over me, and therefore over the kids while they're with me, and she can't handle it. Truly hilarious part is, I am kind of dating someone, but it has nothing to do with the teenage girl's mom!
Of course your attny can advise you best. I guess I am just curious if custody (I assume so) was a topic in mediation? If so, had the two of you began to discuss it with the mediator yet or was it still on a "to do" list? Did the two of you have a set scheduled with the mediator? If there was no set schedule for mediation (IOW you or your W didn't blow of appts) then I don't see how you OR her could be at fault for not following a mediation schedule when there was NO set schedule!
I guess what I would ask the attny if I was in your shoes would be why you were fit for 50/50 custody when it suited her (when she was going to see OM in another country) but now that you have also moved forward you are no longer fit for 50/50 parenting. It certainly does not seem like an unreasonable question to ask and have answered.
The thing about NY is even though the two of you have not lived together for some time it doesn't matter. A physical separation without legal documentation is not recognized by the courts. The two of you could live apart for 50 years and still not be legally separated unless you have a Separation Agreement (filed with the courts) in place. My H moved out in March of 2008 yet as far as NY is concerned we only separated on Nov. 19, 2009.
I don't mean to speak ill about your W but she has proven time and time again she is one manipulative woman. I would be VERY proactive in doing what you need to do legally, not to be nasty, but to protect yourself and your children. I would think her request for full custody would also mean an increase in child support. I also would let your attny know everything that has already been decided in mediation is off the table due to the recent turn of events. IMO it is either ALL mediation or ALL attnys. She chose now you must do what you have to do.
Custody was completely settled in mediation, as was virtually everything else. We just had a few minor points to go before we got the formal agreement drafted. I guess it's my fault, as I stalled it for the last couple months. I didn't "blow off" any appointments. She sent me a proposal via e-mail a couple months ago, I said I'd respond with my comments, and just hadn't done it yet. She wanted us to meet with our MC, to "finalize things", we picked a date and time, the MC had to reschedule, and we never settled on a new time. That was last month.
In the mean time, this summer child care issue came up, and she apparently disapproves of my decision.
My atty did say yesterday that we've clearly had a verbal agreement of 50/50 custody for the last 15 months, neither of us has objected to it, so without any good reason to change it, the court will likely choose to keep it in place.
One interesting thing is that due to my W's trips to see OM, I have had custody of the kids about 53% of the time since she moved out, and I have a very good case that I should be custodial parent. If the court agrees, SHE would have to pay ME child support. The law is pretty clear on it. If one parent can show they've had custody more than half the time due to the others voluntary absense, that trumps income discrepency for deciding who custodial parent is. She has left the kids in my care for six weeks over the last 15 months, while I have only left the kids in her care for two weeks. She will make the case that her trips were for her job and career, but I have clear evidence showing otherwise.
Yes, my eyes have been opened as to my W's true nature. I don't think she's an evil person or anything, but she is instinctively manipulative, and very self absorbed.
The law is pretty clear on it. If one parent can show they've had custody more than half the time due to the others voluntary absense, that trumps income discrepency for deciding who custodial parent is. She has left the kids in my care for six weeks over the last 15 months, while I have only left the kids in her care for two weeks. She will make the case that her trips were for her job and career, but I have clear evidence showing otherwise.
Ahhh, the value of good intel. Nicely done, Future.
Puppy
My H moved out in March of 2008 yet as far as NY is concerned we only separated on Nov. 19, 2009.
CityGirl-
I'm trying to decide if I should file for separation, or outright divorce. Sounds like you opted for separation. Why didn't you file for divorce?
Hi Future,
New advice for you. Now I say, keep the relationship "status quo" until the divorce is final!!! I got sideswiped today. We had one matter that still needed to be ironed out in the settlement agreement for our divorce hearing, which is supposed to be 4/20. I am doing all the work on this, by the way--I just present stuff to him and he looks at it. Anyway, I sent an asset list to H and saw that I had made some errors, that I thought the open matter was still too much in his favor, and I wanted his opinion and the mediator's opinion. He was FURIOUS!!! Said its "war", that he is hiring an attorney, that there will be no divorce this month, etc...
Future, my thought now is his reaction can be chalked up in part because I haven't been "nice" enough to him the past few weeks. He needs me to tell him that he couldn't help having this affair (which he does not want to end) and that I think he is still the sensitive, caring man I married. He had been insisting this in e-mails to me, and I was not responding...
Anyway, long story short (I hope), tonight I made him a sandwich when he came to pick up the boys, and I was very cordial. Its not that I have been mean or nasty to him at all, I just haven't been paying enough attention to him lately. I have a feeling that because I made him a sandwich and was nice and not "neutral" that he will sign the settlement agreement and we will be through it this month.
Its worth it for me to keep up the status quo for a few weeks longer...but I've got light at the end of the tunnel (I pray to God). Its hard to know what you should do because of the long road in NY. I sounds like she is really mad that she isn't getting your attention, and so she's having a tantrum. Like my H, it sounds like she's going to demand attention from you one way or the other--either positive or negative. Hard to know which one is most in your interest at this point. Like you, I feel that my H is not a bad person, he is just self absorbed and immature. This has brought out the worst in him...he's trying, but its hard to get there.
^^^ and this is what I was getting at. Cut your loses and play "nice" to get it over with. Damage control if you will.
The thing is, I haven't been ignoring her to punish her or anything like that. I've been ignoring her so I can detach and heal. She'd never believe that though, it's all about her, and it's all my fault.
A few days ago I was pondering offering my W an extra day with the kids because I'm taking them away for a week for spring break, as a nice gesture. Of course when I received the summons, I thought no way am I going to make that offer, but yesterday I reconsidered. I got angry when I realized that her actions were causing me to reject my own nature, so I sent her an e-mail and made the offer. When I called to talk to the kids last night she said she couldn't change her work schedule to take the kids on the day I offered, but asked if she could have the kids for a few hours on another day. I said sure.
One other thing I realized, how is she going to care for the kids full time, and also work? Right now she does the majority of her work when I have the kids. Is she saying she'd put the kids in the care of others rather than me? Of course these "others" would be chosen by her, not me, and I think therin lies the answer.
Did you ask her why she is sueing for full custody?
No I haven't, but I have considered doing so. I suppose it couldn't hurt.
Interesting that in the papers I was served, it doesn't really say why she wants to change our current custody arrangement. It doesn't even mention our current arrangement, just says she wants full custody because she's been the children's primary caregiver since birth, she's involved in their education, she's responsible for their religious training, she manages their health care, and since she's self employed her schedule is flexible. That's it.
Well, that only makes a case for joint legal custody really, but I am NO lawyer.
Future,
I think she wants to keep you hooked in--to keep you emotionally enmeshed. Good job with the offer of seeing the kids. Maybe getting the distance and starting the healing will allow you to be cordial without feeling like you are losing boundaries...
I think she wants to keep you hooked in--to keep you emotionally enmeshed.
I agree. I've been ignoring her. She's saying "Ok, try to ignore this!"
Good job with the offer of seeing the kids. Maybe getting the distance and starting the healing will allow you to be cordial without feeling like you are losing boundaries...
Thanks. Exactly! I wish she could understand that, but like I said, it's all about her, and it's all my fault.
She's going to keep this "all about her". We are dealing with 2 peas in a pod, Future! I've got our mediator involved and am trying to be as NICE as I can be to get him to sign on the 20th. I think in the end, he will. He just wants to feel like he's doing me a favor when he signs so I'll owe him. Its good to be able to see all of these interactions through a different pair of glasses. My marriage is SO making sense to me now.
I completely enabled him to be selfish, and increasingly for every "favor" he does for me, he wants 10 in return. My friend said that he didn't start out being a prick, but its so clear that he is one now! I let him do it. It brought out the worst in him instead of the best by giving in all the time, and now I've got to deal with this monster part of him that I helped create!
I'm contemplating reaching out to see if I can defuse this before it gets very ugly and unstoppable. As long as I maintain my boundaries, what do I have to lose?
She will see my reaching out as weakness, but that's just her perception. My kids are what's important, and if I can convince her I will negotiate with her in good faith, and cooperate with her as a coparent, perhaps she'll back down, and I can avoid a very long, painful, and expensive process, for everyone involved, including the kids.
She doesn't want to be ignored, so I'll give her what she wants.
Good idea. You might want to ask her why she wants custody and try to be as nice as you can be until the papers are signed. Then if the judge sees you have tried, maybe it will clarify the custody issue better.
That's what I think I'm going to do. Three nice e-mails, offering to give him what he wants in terms of the settlement (which is more than I think he should have, but its worth it to me to get out of this). I've received nasty, explosive e-mails back about wanting "war", and so if it gets ugly, I'll have that in writing, and I'm going to ask for attorney fees as part of the settlement...to show it was him being vindictive and not because he wasn't getting a fair deal.
I feel like that old camp song about Bunny Foo Foo---I'll give you THREE chances and if you don't be good, I'll turn you into a goon!
Future, at this point it is not about DB'ing really. Maybe we should all try a bit more honesty sometimes.? I know that when we are deep in the LRT and we think we might have a chance we get kinda stuck in this thinking that being dark and defending boundaries is the way to go. But as the sitch stretches on LRT is no longer doing a bit of good. Maybe approach it like this,
"Wife, I know I have been cold but I wanted my time to get over you. Can we deal with the custody issue like the great parents that we are so that the kids do not get hurt? I don't want my children to resent their mother for taking their Father away from them."
Maybe others can help edit this to suit you better. You are a good guy future, you will do alright!
I've received nasty, explosive e-mails back about wanting "war", and so if it gets ugly, I'll have that in writing, and I'm going to ask for attorney fees as part of the settlement...to show it was him being vindictive and not because he wasn't getting a fair deal.
Wow, not smart of him to put that in writing. One of the things the courts look for regarding custody is which partner is more amenable to working together.
I have an e-mail where my W told me I wasn't welcome at my daughter's parent teacher conference. Won't look good for her.
As I review all the e-mails I sent her, they are all civil, positive, and show cooperation regarding the kids. I don't know what she can point to to say I'm impossible to work with.
Future, at this point it is not about DB'ing really. Maybe we should all try a bit more honesty sometimes.? I know that when we are deep in the LRT and we think we might have a chance we get kinda stuck in this thinking that being dark and defending boundaries is the way to go. But as the sitch stretches on LRT is no longer doing a bit of good. Maybe approach it like this,
"Wife, I know I have been cold but I wanted my time to get over you. Can we deal with the custody issue like the great parents that we are so that the kids do not get hurt? I don't want my children to resent their mother for taking their Father away from them."
Maybe others can help edit this to suit you better. You are a good guy future, you will do alright!
Thanks so much v1olin. I agree, this isn't about DBing anymore. That's over with now. I did my best and this is where it got me. W's mother tonight was saying how W has always had a tendancy to attack when feeling guilt. Don't I know it!
Nice to know W's mother is still rooting for me. She doesn't think it will do any good to reach out to my W, but she said "why not, you've got nothing to lose." My position is to maintain the 50/50 custody, and she agrees with that.
No problem
I do wish that I was dealing with a MIL like yours though! My MIL is all about making her daughter happy. "Whatever makes you happy" seems to be her answer to my wife for this whole mess. I have come to this conclusion myself recently- "DB'ing is over, my wife is a lost cause but I am not."
After what my MIL said, I'm wondering if W trying to get full custody of the kids is some desperate act to push me out of her life so she can avoid the real consequences of her actions. She now sees that I'm moving on and that she has no control over me anymore. She now sees a future where we have to share the kids and she will have to live with them having new experiences, meeting new people, and living half their lives outside of her view. This is causing her unbearable anxiety, and the only solution is to get complete control of them. The fact that it would hurt me horribly is meaningless to her. This is all my fault anyway, so I deserve it.
Had a meeting with my atty this afternoon. He said it's extremely unlikely this will go to trial, and that the court will likely maintain the verbal agreement we've been living under for over a year. I'm still worried, but less so. If she was going to go for full custody, pretty stupid of her to leave the kids with me for two and a half weeks right before filing!
Yep, I dont think she has a case at all. What judge would take the kids away from their Dad completely?
Violin, you are really right. We all need to get through this as best as we can so we can be good parents to our kids and move on. In IC today, I told my counselor that I can only remember the times my H was a complete prick in our marriage--that I can't remember anything good about it. But I know that will change. The goal is to get through the D with as little collateral damage as possible and to act like grown ups! (Even if we don't always feel that way). Future, sounds like you see a good future ahead of you! I'm glad the atty doesn't think this will go to trial!
P.S. H just signed off on the settlement agreement. We should be officially divorced next Tuesday. I feel sad and relieved at the same time.
musclegal, must be a strange feeling. Hang in there, I think you're starting to heal.
W and I had our first court appearance this morning. Walked through security right behind her. Said a quick hi, nothing else. The whole thing was pretty much just a formality, and only took a few minutes. The judge took statements from the two attys, and then appointed a public defender to represent the kids. She then adjourned until the beginning of June.
On the way out, my atty told me that unless they can prove I've been unfit, or abusive, or unavailable to my kids, the court doesn't like to change existing arrangements.
musclegal, I know you're an atty, so don't take offense, but the courtroom antics are hilarious. When my W's atty was making his statement, he dramatically said something like "Their mother would like custody of her infant children, three of them." Infants? They're five, six, and nine years old! LOL! The judge asked if she was amenable to the father getting time with the kids, and he emphatically said "Aaaaaabsolutey, your honor!"
Kids and I are very excited about our upcoming trip. I'm taking them on a beach vacation for their spring break. They're counting the days, much to the chagrin of their mother, I'm sure. Two other families are going too, including the family of the teenage girl I'm hiring to do childcare for me this summer, another probable reason for the legal action. At least W didn't make some ridiculous motion in court today to try to prevent me from taking the kids.
What did your attorney say? I bet you must be feeling like this is a dream, or is it too real for that?
You are doing so well --- many here have a lot to learn from you.
It is sort of a dream, that could turn into a nightmare very quickly if the court rules against me. My atty doesn't see that happening though. It's insane, my W has left the kids in my care four times to take trips to see OM. She just got back from a two week trip last month, and now she's suing me for full custody. Crazy!
Thanks. I do feel like I'm doing well. I have started to post on other threads, hopefully my ordeal can help others.
She just got back from a two week trip last month, and now she's suing me for full custody. Crazy!
No, not crazy... sounds like she has a purpose. With full custody she can take them with her and live overseas.
((((FU)))))
I can't imagine her to get full custody along with taking them out of the country. What kind of mother takes her kids away from their father? (unless their is abuse of course)
ugh
She just got back from a two week trip last month, and now she's suing me for full custody. Crazy!
No, not crazy... sounds like she has a purpose. With full custody she can take them with her and live overseas.
Not only that, full custody means there is more money in child support versus alimony.
No, not crazy... sounds like she has a purpose. With full custody she can take them with her and live overseas.
It's crazy that she thinks she has a case. I think that even if she gets full custody, she can't get them passports without my signature, as their father. She'd have to have my parental rights terminated to do that without my consent.
Full custody would give her more legal leverage to use against me though, and she DEFINITELY would get much more support. She could also move away anywhere within the USA, and I'd have no say. I'd be relegated to writing a big check to her every month and seeing the kids a few times a year. THAT's my nightmare scenario.
Praying for a good result for you, FU.
Puppy
Vacation has started. Halfway to our beach destination. Kids are watching Shrek 2 on TV, hotel has Internet, so I might as well give an update.
Picked up kids this morning at W's house. W was trying to reach out a little, particularly surprising given the last time I saw her was in court. She actually spoke the name of the woman who is the teenage daughter's mother to me. She had her hurt puppy dog demeanor going. Note that I haven't ever said one word to her about who's going on the trip with us. I assume the kids have been talking about it, as they're very excited.
She said "I wanted to discuss the kids and swimming with you. I know there are some going to be some teenagers down there with you, but could you make sure either you or <other (male) friend we both know who's going> are watching them? I don't know <teenage daughter's mother>, so I don't know if she's ok to watch them." I said "I'll be with them nearly all the time." We took care of some kids things, then a minute later she said "I know I sound controlling, please realize one of my clients lost their four year old child to a swimming pool accident." I softened just a tiny bit and said "Ok."
Then I noticed it. I didn't let her see I noticed it, but I did. She was wearing her engagement ring, on her right ring finger. First time I've seen it in about three years. Wow. She actually got up this morning, picked up that ring and put it on her finger. Wow. I can't even imagine putting my ring on my finger. It's crazy!
She gave the kids each some money for the trip (I didn't ask her to help out), and she asked if I had swimming goggles for the kids. I said I'd probably buy some down there, and she said "If you want to save some money, you can borrow the goggles I have for the kids, as long as I get them back." I said "Sure."
She helped get the kids ready and buckled into the car, then told the kids to have a good time. She looked worried and sad. I couldn't help it, I softened a bit more and said "Don't worry W, they'll be ok." She said "Bye kids, bye H" and walked away.
Someone is finally getting what
con-se-quen-ces look like. Eventually, when you treat people like cr*p, they tend to withdraw and find a life for themselves, and the kids go with half of that life. Did she really think you would somehow disappear, leaving the kids full-time with her, getting your money, while she gets it on with some other man?
It is weird that she is wearing her engagement ring, but I wouldn't read too much into it, if I were you.
Happy holidays!
Hey Future, hope the beach is nice and the water is warm enough to swim! Its great that you are going with the other families--I think that kids (and grown ups, too!) need to feel part of a big circle. It cushions the bumps in life.
Attorneys can be very pompous and silly--sounds like she's got herself a piece of work there.
For me, D-date is Tuesday. Signed and sealed, I think! I am having a "Bachelorette Fete" on Wednesday (not to celebrate the divorce, because that's sad, but to celebrate spring and new beginnings) AND, I actually have a DATE today--I got on match.com on Wednesday and already have 33 "interesteds" in me. It is a great confidence builder. I signed up on a fluke, really to see who is even out there and to see if I COULD date if I wanted to, but this man seems nice, so we're having lunch today. I'm not ready to jump into anything, but it would be nice to have a gentleman companion!
The engagement ring is weird...sounds like she sees that she's no longer in the center of your world and wishes she were going to the beach with you...
Yeah, I think the only reason that ring was on is because she is feeling the loss of you to another woman. I don't know what I would think if my wife had her ring on. I am going out with someone on thursday so if she did have a change of heart it had better be more clear than just putting her ring on.
Back from vacation. Had an awesome time! The kids didn't want to leave. I am proud of myself for how well I planned and executed the vacation. I feel like a confident and competent single Dad. Ironic that I am now fighting to keep my custody of the kids. We spent a whole week in the sun at the beach and no one got sunburned, so I guess I was sufficiently diligent with the sunscreen.
Going with the other families was great. There were a grand total of twelve kids in our group. My kids were by far the youngest, and everyone helped me look out for them, very helpful near the ocean.
Kids hardly mentioned their Mom on the trip, and only asked to call her once. She called them once as well. I give her credit for that, as I appreciate her letting me have my vacation with the kids and not intruding.
Although the kids are still in my custody for a few more days, I offered for W to have the kids for the day yesterday. Why I'm generous given the situation I sometimes question, but it seemed like the right thing to do for the kids, if nothing else. Strange, when she showed up my son and older daughter were quite standoffish with her. She held out her arms for a hug, and they reluctantly walked over and let her hug them with their arms at their sides. I even felt bad for her a little. They warmed up quick though, and started telling her the fun tales of our trip, difficult for her to hear I'm sure. She put on a good act though.
I didn't even think to look to see whether she had on her engagement ring again. I have no idea what was up with that. Seemed like a "let's f*ck with H's head" move to me, and it worked, a little.
Glad you had a fun time, future. I am a tad concerned about the kids not being enthusiastic when she came to collect them ---- she may come up with the "alienation of affection" argument in court. I am sure, though, that she would have to prove it. Just make sure she cannot point that finger at you.
Take care.
I have never said one negative thing to the kids about their mother. Not one. Of course I'm sure she thinks I have, and yes, I need to be wary of that argument being used in court.
Conversely, she has said negative things about me to the kids, which they have repeated to me.
I didn't get the impression that you were the type to say bad things about your children's mother. But, I did sense she was that type, and knowing that about her, she might think you do the same. Your W can manipulate things to her advantage sometimes, so I was just sounding a little alarm when I read of the kids reaction to her. Forewarned is forearmed, as they say, even if it doesn't come to that.
Future - I am so jealous. I want a beach vacation too.
Sounds like you and the kids had a blast and made some new and happy memories together.
I didn't get the impression that you were the type to say bad things about your children's mother. But, I did sense she was that type, and knowing that about her, she might think you do the same. Your W can manipulate things to her advantage sometimes, so I was just sounding a little alarm when I read of the kids reaction to her. Forewarned is forearmed, as they say, even if it doesn't come to that.
Here is what I've recently heard from my kids about me:
* "Mommy doesn't like you" (from my son to me)
* "<Mommy's friend> called you a bad name" (from my older daughter to me)
* "Why do you help your son-in-law, you should help your daughter" (from my older daughter to my MIL, right in front of me)
* "We're more sad when we leave Mommy because we have the same blood as her" (from my older daughter to me)
Talk about alienation!
Future - I am so jealous. I want a beach vacation too.
Sounds like you and the kids had a blast and made some new and happy memories together.
Thanks! It was a very fun time. I did notice that although I brought my camera, I never took it out. Something inside of me still sees these days as "tainted", and I'm not sure I want to remember them, at least not with pictures. Sad.
Just found out something that rubs me the wrong way. I got my youngest daughter a sock puppet kit for her b-day a few weeks ago. She's been anxious to make the sock puppets, but with planning for the trip and all, we haven't had a chance until tonight. There was three puppets in the kit, but only two were there on the table. I made one with each of my daughters. I finally asked my daughter where the third one was. She said "Mommy did it with me." I was confused and said "When was that?" She said "When she was over here looking for <other daughter's> necklace." So apparently when my MIL was watching the kids here recently, my W came over and was playing with the kids, and made a sock puppet, and was rummaging through my daughter's room looking for a necklace.
This is the kind of thing that really p*sses me off. If I make an issue of it, I'm being mean and petty. If I ignore it, I reinforce her attitude that she can cross my boundaries.
Well, find a different person to watch your kids. Simple as that. I know you like your mother in law but I would not trust her.
Perhaps you should tell her that if she needs an article for the kids, she should ask you and you will look for it, or since her mother was in charge, she could've checked. WAW doesn't live there anymore. She moved out. And has no rights in your home anymore. How would she feel if you came over to her house and rummaged through the kids rooms looking for something? This is something that would definitely irk me. It wasn't as if this was an emergency, like homework. I say stick to your boundaries and don't worry what she thinks of you --- she's already made that clear. Also, point out that you wanted to make the puppet with D, so you would appreciate her not taking over planned projects in your house. I feel you have to be firm with her, without being mean. If you don't say anything, she'll assume she can do it again and again, perhaps?
Well, find a different person to watch your kids. Simple as that. I know you like your mother in law but I would not trust her.
Oh, I trust her, but I appreciate the situation she's in. She's not going to block her daughter from playing with her own kids, although she probably was a bit uncomfortable allowing it in my house.
She's only going to be watching the kids through the end of the school year, then I'm on my own, so I guess I won't need to worry about it any more.
Perhaps you should tell her that if she needs an article for the kids, she should ask you and you will look for it, or since her mother was in charge, she could've checked. WAW doesn't live there anymore. She moved out. And has no rights in your home anymore. How would she feel if you came over to her house and rummaged through the kids rooms looking for something? This is something that would definitely irk me. It wasn't as if this was an emergency, like homework. I say stick to your boundaries and don't worry what she thinks of you --- she's already made that clear. Also, point out that you wanted to make the puppet with D, so you would appreciate her not taking over planned projects in your house. I feel you have to be firm with her, without being mean. If you don't say anything, she'll assume she can do it again and again, perhaps?
I'm sure if I try to talk to her, she'll immediately get very defensive and aggressive, and if I persist, she'll accuse me of being hostile and mean. The problem is, I'll FEEL petty doing it. Is it petty?
No, it's not petty! Again ... how would she feel if you came and rummaged through your daughter's bedroom in her house, looking for something unimportant such as a necklace? Would you call her petty if she complained? And then, on top of that, sat there with MIL playing with the kids, completing projects she had wanted to do with them? Who knows if she kept her search only in that bedroom and didn't look around yours, wondering if she will see evidence of another woman?
I hate to say this, but you sound a little afraid of her reaction. Perhaps you should leave it be, but don't allow her to make you feel you can't set your boundaries and stand by them.
You are doing so awesome with GAL, distancing yourself emotionally, etc. so if it will affect that in any way, then don't bring it up unless it becomes a habit.
Alright folks, I need advice.
I'm thinking it's time for me to make a change. The path my W and I are on is leading to nothing but ugliness and misery for me, her, and most of all, our kids.
Given how she's been acting, maybe I should throw her a bone and ask her if she really wants this legal nightmare we're about to enter, or is something else going on. If I drop my guard and reach out, she will probably be unable to resist the opportunity to "make me suffer" a little, as in make me work before she yields, but if I just see that as the way she is I can handle it. She is not happy. I think I've proved to her that I don't need her, and that I will stand up to her and not back down.
She is so manipulative though, by her nature. Have I learned enough, detached enough, and healed enough to manage her manipulative ways? That's what I ponder. Can I withstand the potential for reattachment if I open back up? Are these little stunts she's been pulling just tests to see if she can hook me back in to control me, or her attempts to open a dialog? I have been VERY tough for the last couple months. Haven't given her an inch. If I stay on this path, and if she remains on her path, even if she eventually breaks, I might hate her so much by then that I'd be unable to find any way back.
Do I take a chance? If I don't even try, or if I do and fail, either way I'm going to have to go on the legal offensive now, so what do I have to lose?
No, it's not petty! Again ... how would she feel if you came and rummaged through your daughter's bedroom in her house, looking for something unimportant such as a necklace? Would you call her petty if she complained? And then, on top of that, sat there with MIL playing with the kids, completing projects she had wanted to do with them? Who knows if she kept her search only in that bedroom and didn't look around yours, wondering if she will see evidence of another woman?
Yeah, that occurred to me as well. Did she look around elsewhere in the house too? Of course the question is, why would she look for evidence of another woman? Does she care?
I hate to say this, but you sound a little afraid of her reaction. Perhaps you should leave it be, but don't allow her to make you feel you can't set your boundaries and stand by them.
I'm just continually amazed at her gall, and it seems ridiculous that I need to point this stuff out to her. If I bring it up she'll say something like "What was I supposed to do? D5 asked me to do her sock puppet with her. Should I have said no?" How about "Sweetie, that's something Daddy bought for you. Why don't you save it to do with him?"
Regarding her being in my house, I have to be careful there. I don't want to put my MIL in the middle. She obviously invited W into the house, so I don't want her to feel like she betrayed me. She has been so good to me. Anything I say to W about it will immediately be relayed to MIL.
You are doing so awesome with GAL, distancing yourself emotionally, etc. so if it will affect that in any way, then don't bring it up unless it becomes a habit.
Thanks. I think so too. Along the lines of my prior post, if I do bring it up, maybe it should be in the context of trying to get her to open up about everything, and not as a challenge to her crossing a boundary. Ask her why she wants to come into my house and do an art project I bought for the kids? Seems so odd, along with other things she's doing.
You know your WAW best, but I would suspect she might want to see if another woman is sleeping there while the children are in the house, as a weapon against you legally? I know, she won't see the hypocrisy in that. I get the impression that your WAW goes over the top, to unbalance those she is attacking. Most people would be happy to have an amiable divorce with 50/50 child custody. But not her.
She doesn't seem to want to do things the easy way ... she wants you grovelling, without the children, for whatever reason. There's an itch there that she just wants scratched, and you're the post she's gonna do it on. (Think about her first husband and how she treated him during the D.)
Normally, I would say, yes, go for it. See what the problem is that caused her to suddenly try for full custody. Seek a friendly D with 50/50 custody. But, I think we all know why she's doing it .... she wants to take the children out of the country and she is resentful of you standing in the way, IMHO. She's throwing the dice, gambling with the possibility that she may win, and if she doesn't, nothing is lost (unless you sue for full custody, and she knows you are a reasonable person, who likely won't do that to her or the children.) I'm just not sure whether you will find out anything, and she won't capitulate unless she gets something out of it .... passports for the children and agreement to let them out of the country. I doubt if she will show her hand ... only what she wants you to see.
Remember that this is someone who feels no guilt over having an affair. You were not an evil H who beat her, isolated her, had multiple affairs. You tried to make her happy, and you love your children and you are a good dad. There is nothing she can say that justifies the A. And there is nothing she can say that justifies her having full custody of the children. If anything, you have more justification for that than she does, and she is lucky that you are a good man and don't want to deprive the kids of their mother. You just have to realize that she doesn't think the same way you do.
But, I end with what I began with ... you know her best. Only you can decide what the best course of action is. If you do approach her, I would make sure there is evidence, i.e. send an email and hope for a reply, or a letter (and make a copy), or have a witness present, so that you can show you tried to make it work outside the court system.
Take care.
Here is what happened this morning.
Our son and youngest daughter ad their annual checkups today. W and I have always both gone in the past, and given what’s going on, I particularly didn’t want to change that, so I went. W didn’t know I was coming, and she seemed a bit surprised. Our walls were up completely, and we barely spoke or looked at each other.
Our son's eye test was borderline, and it looks like he’s going to need glasses. He was upset about that, and we were both trying to console him. That made a tiny hole through the walls.
Then our daughter had to have three immunization shots, and she threw an absolute fit. She was screaming, and flailing around, and W and I both had to hold her down and try to help her. After it was done I got a little choked up, and my wall was definitely weakening a bit more.
On the way out W asked if I wanted to go to lunch with them. She didn’t have her swagger going, like she was flirting with me, or doing me some big favor, or manipulating me. She seemed very sincere. I said okay.
We met at a fast food place nearby. The kids had a fight over who could sit next to me, and W finally switched to a six person table so they could sit on either side of me and she sat on the other side by herself. She asked me how my job was going, and for the first time in months I actually chatted with her a little, but my guard was still WAY up. We had a nice lunch with the kids.
As we got up to leave she looked at me and with sadness asked “So how are you?” I said “I’m fine. How are you?” She said “I’m good", but she didn't say it like she was good.
We walked out to our cars. I helped get the kids loaded into her van. We were both on the passenger side, and after our daughter was buckled in we both started to walk over to her driver’s side, since my car was on that side. At the back of her van we stopped and looked at each other. She took her sunglasses off. She looked sad. I softly said “Hey.” She said “Hey.” I moved toward her until our faces were about two feet apart. It wasn’t any kind of flirtatious thing, we were dead serious, and I wanted to send a signal that my wall was coming down a bit. She stood her ground and we looked into each others’ eyes for a few moments. She asked “Hate it?” I slightly nodded and said “You?” She looked very sad and nodded and said “Yeah.” I asked “Wanna talk?” She said “Yeah.” I said “Okay” then I reached my arms out and hugged her. She wrapped her arms around me and held me tight for a good long while. We let go and I got in my car and drove away.
So let’s see. A grand total of ten words were spoken. By far the highest meaning/word ratio conversation I’ve ever had.
For the first time in YEARS, it was finally an even playing field. She had no swagger in her demeanor at all, and I had no longing in mine.
The whole thing took me by surprise, and now I don’t know what to do, if anything. I guess I should set up a time with her to get together to talk. About what I’m not exactly sure.
Wow!
Looks like something positive and sounded so romantic (could it be that). If you do meet, I would advise letting her do most of the talking/explaining. I can't imagine you have a lot to say, so that leaves listening --- active listening. She knows now that you have nothing to lose and don't seem that eager to gain her back. So, watch out for the "what I can't have, I want most of all" syndrome, or "I'm lonely, let's be buddies." I would guess that you are the best friend she ever had, setting the marriage aside
plus she knows that no-one can ever be the dad you are to the children
equals "what the heck have I thrown away?" But, she might not want to admit that. And, that still leaves the lack of guilt over the A, and any feelings she may or may not have for you.
But, I am getting ahead here --- who knows what she would want to talk about? As I said before, this is a positive step and I hope it's good for you and the kids.
....I should set up a time with her to get together to talk. About what I’m not exactly sure.
That was my question. Get together to talk about what exactly?
This could be something, but on the other hand it could be nothing.
I think you should take things at a snails pace, go in with no expectations, and above all, make the right decisions for YOU and YOU alone.
(((Future)))
That was my question. Get together to talk about what exactly?
This could be something, but on the other hand it could be nothing.
If nothing else, I think I can avoid this whole legal nightmare and get her back on track with a 50/50 custody agreement. When she asked me if I "hate it", she was referring to the legal stuff. When I asked back "you?", I was referring to my detached and distant stance toward her. So those are the topics to talk about. Whether we'll arrive at anything meaningful, who knows.
If she says she doesn't want us to be so distant from each other, my response is simple. She cheated on me, left me, took my kids half from me, and now is trying take them fully from me. How does she expect me to act? If she wants me back in her life, then obviously her involvement with OM and his country must stop completely and for good, and she must drop her lawsuit. That's for starters. As for what happens between her and me, that's harder, and I'm not sure what I want there. As BeingMe says, I really just need to listen to what she says.
I agree totally that a snails pace is best, and yes, I will be making decisions for ME.
That was my question. Get together to talk about what exactly?
This could be something, but on the other hand it could be nothing.
If nothing else, I think I can avoid this whole legal nightmare and get her back on track with a 50/50 custody agreement. When she asked me if I "hate it", she was referring to the legal stuff. When I asked back "you?", I was referring to my detached and distant stance toward her. So those are the topics to talk about. Whether we'll arrive at anything meaningful, who knows.
If she says she doesn't want us to be so distant from each other, my response is simple. She cheated on me, left me, took my kids half from me, and now is trying take them fully from me. How does she expect me to act? If she wants me back in her life, then obviously her involvement with OM and his country must stop completely and for good, and she must drop her lawsuit. That's for starters. As for what happens between her and me, that's harder, and I'm not sure what I want there. As BeingMe says, I really just need to listen to what she says.
I agree totally that a snails pace is best, and yes, I will be making decisions for ME.
"OM and his country", please describe what that means. I hope your GAL'ing and taking care of yourself in the interim.
My W has a connection to a particular country that led to her A with OM. Even if she claims her A is over, I can't tolerate her going there any more, way too dangerous. It's not like it's Canada or Mexico, where it would be silly to forbid her from going to the entire country. This is on the other side of the earth, and all the people she knows there are connected to OM one way or another, so I would need her to sever all those connections as well. She has absolutely no need to ever go to that country other than foster those relationships. She has to leave it behind if she has any hope of saving our M. It is sad, because that country holds a special meaning to her in her life, but given what happened, she has forever associated that country with her A. I can't see any possible way for her to maintain that association and be in our M. She of course couldn't ever go there by herself, and I would NEVER want to go there with her, so what's left?
I absolutely am GALing and taking care of myself. Even after that interaction today, I feel fine and am not emotionally shook up at all. I already made plans for tonight, tomorrow, and this weekend!
Thanks for your interest in my situation.
No contact with W since our interaction the other day.
I'm waiting to see if she's going to contact me to arrange a time to talk. I feel the ball is in her court. I'm not being stubborn, just one thing I've learned through all this is that time and patience are good things.
This latest development hasn't really rattled me, and I'm fine living my life, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't get me thinking about things again. I still have the hardeset time imagining what possible path there is for us that could lead to reconciliation. So much damage has been done.
I wonder if she's waiting for you, Future? I don't want to be a downer, but maybe this custody issue was to get your attention, and now she has it? Farfetched, I know, but with your WAW, I wouldn't be surprised. Once she gets you to be 'friends' again, perhaps she is hoping to soften you enough to let the kids out of the country. Although, she should know by now, that's your hot button for detaching yourself from the 'friendship'.
Anyway, one way or another, you are gaining in lengths and strides, in confidence, self-worth, assertiveness, fun, and all the other things that constitute GAL. No wonder your kids want to sit with you, even though they are more with you then with her on average. You'd think they would be clinging to her, right?!
I wonder if she's waiting for you, Future? I don't want to be a downer, but maybe this custody issue was to get your attention, and now she has it? Farfetched, I know, but with your WAW, I wouldn't be surprised. Once she gets you to be 'friends' again, perhaps she is hoping to soften you enough to let the kids out of the country. Although, she should know by now, that's your hot button for detaching yourself from the 'friendship'.
She might be waiting for me, but I don't want her to think I've just been pining for her to make this move, because I haven't. She can wait, and if she doesn't say anything about it in the next few days or week, maybe I will bring it up. I'm testing her a little here. If we're going to talk, I'd like to do it before this legal stuff really gets going.
She knows I will not let the kids out of the country. I have never yielded on that even a tiny bit. That's one boundary I've managed to keep rock solid. I really don't think that's what's going on here. I think the custody lawsuit was about getting my attention and hurting me. She wanted to get a reaction. She's been trying to get my attention for weeks with all her games, and they've all failed. I finally gave it to her when she sincerely asked me "How are you doing?" I know her so well, and I know I finally broke her, at least a little.
Anyway, one way or another, you are gaining in lengths and strides, in confidence, self-worth, assertiveness, fun, and all the other things that constitute GAL. No wonder your kids want to sit with you, even though they are more with you then with her on average. You'd think they would be clinging to her, right?!
Thanks! It was funny how the kids gravitated to me, and I'll be honest, inside I was loving it, even though I knew it was probably hurting her a little.
Recap of the events of the last few days.
I saw W and kids Saturday morning at my daughter's soccer game. Beautiful morning. My wall was still very up, and I didn't interact with my W hardly at all. She was cautious but warm and friendly with me. I kept my distance. An old friend of mine was there with her kids, so I hung out with her most of the time and caught up. Again my son and other daughter stuck to me, and left my W sitting watching the soccer game by herself. I felt a little bad for her.
As the game was winding down I made my way back to where W was sitting. She didn't act self pitying about the kids leaving her to be with me during the game. She has really lost the "oh woe is me" attitude that was so pervasive last year, and I have to say, it's a good thing. She's positive and friendly. She compliments me and reaches out in little ways. I have to admit, it's working.
I helped her pack up her stuff and we walked to her car. I helped get the kids loaded up and said goodbye. W needed to discuss a couple things, and there was a moment of lingering. I gave her another hug, and again she squeezed me tight. She chuckled a little and said "Well, things are officially weird between us again." Then she pulled back and said with a bit of a submissive tone "It's up to you if you want to talk. I'm available. I've persued you enough over the last few months, it's up to you now." D6 saw what was going on, jumped right up, and reached over the front seat. She grabbed W's hand and my hand and pressed them together. W said "Alright D6, I know what your motives are." I pulled my hand back, said goodbye, walked away and got in my car.
When I got home W had left me a message on my answering machine. She said "I just want to clarify what I said. I know I haven't been asking you to talk for the last few months, but over January, February, March and April, you seemed like you really pulled away. We should talk about the custody thing..., uh, and there are definitely other things we should talk about. I just wanted you to know that I'm available to talk."
I'm trying not to react to all this and stay centered in the good place I've been. I've been fairly successful, but I admit, I am thinking about W again.
I ran a tough race yesterday morning in the heat and humidity, then went to pick up the kids from W's house. She had them ready, and was in a good mood. She asked me about the race, and was complimenting me on my committment to run in the miserable conditions. She seems so happy that I'm not so distant any more. Again D6 grabbed our hands and put them together and then told us we should kiss. Poor thing. She is trying so hard to put Mommy and Daddy back together. W said "I know you like it that we're not angry with each other, and we are trying to be nice to each other, but that's all we can do right now."
After getting the kids loaded, we had a brief conversation:
W: "We shouldn't hug in front of them, D6 is really getting worked up about it."
Me: "I noticed. So you want to have dinner sometime?"
W: "Sure."
Me: "We need to arrange for child care some evening."
W: "I'm available any night except Monday and Tuesday when I work."
Me: "Ok."
That was it. She was smiling at me and putting out such a warm vibe. Where is this all going?
One thing I've been thinking about is what possible path we could have toward a successful reconciliation. What do I need? What does she need? Are we capable of meeting each other's needs. Could I ever truly get past her A? Will it pop into my head at random times, or worse, not-so-random times?
I have been realizing that I really don't want her to beg and grovel. Not that there isn't a part of me that would love to see it, but I know it wouldn't be a help. Rather, it would just add more toxic bad energy to the situation. I think I learned that from AFWAW's situation, who's W begged and pleaded endlessly, and it seemed to only make things worse. I need to be willing to allow her her dignity, and at some point I'll need to trust that she'll express to me true remorse for the pain she caused me. I also know she'll need to convince me she has worked through her demons and understands why she did what she did. Don't want to get ahead of myself here, but I do need to try to visualize a path if there's any hope at all.
I guess the one thing I would gently suggest you think about is how your thought pattern shifted in a few short days.
You went from thinking your W wanted to talk about the custody battle to know wondering if the two of you can reconcile.
Nobody wants to be in a legal battle. It is costly and stressful and especially horrible when the battle is over children. Why not see how that issue can be worked out before you allow yourself to even think about anything else.
Your W set the tone for the custody battle and you simply responded in the way you felt was best. She might (or might not, who knows!) realize that a custody battle will be much harder than she thought.
I am glad your W is not being as cold as she was to you. No matter what happens you will need to have some sort of positive vibe with her as the two of you share small children together. I would proceed with extreme caution and work out the custody issue before anything else is addressed.
CityGirl-
Right. That's my mission. Deal with the custody thing first. From what W said on the phone, that's her goal too.
My thinking hasn't shifted all that much. I'm still happy with myself and confident about my future. I just want to prepare myself psychologically for where our talk might go, and I need to seriously consider what I want so I can respond appropriately.
For the record, W was not being cold to me this year. I've been cold and distant to her in my effort to detach. I needed to put an impenetrable wall up to do it, and it worked.
I don't agree that we have to have a positive vibe between us because of the kids. We have to remain civil to each other, and I have. I have never refused to discuss any practical matter regarding the kids. She would continually use those opportunities to try to hook me though, so I had to stop giving her even an inch, at least until I felt detached enough to deal with it. I think I am now, but I'm not sure. Guess I'll find out.
I understand wanting to be prepared for the possible direction a talk could take!
I have to disagree that your W has not been cold. Maybe we define cold in a different way but having you served with custody papers w/o so much a mention to you is pretty cold IMO. Perhaps harsh would have been a better word to use.
And yes, civil was sort of what I meant by a "positive vibe". You want to show your children despite the circumstances you can remain positive about your life and remain positive when you have to deal with your W.
Maybe right now, aside from the custody issue, you don't have to decide what you want. It's very good you are focused on you and feel more detached than you had in the past.
Ha! Yeah, serving me with custody papers is pretty cold, isn't it? I never saw it as anything other than an emotional reaction to my distant and detached demeanor toward her. She's such an implusive person. In a strange way, her serving me only convinced me more that she's still attached to me.
For the first time in a LONG time, I called my W on the phone last night, not to simply arrange a child transition, but rather to talk and arrange a time to go out together. Was ok, but somewhat awkward. We only talked for a few minutes. Pretty funny, W said she got served with papers today. She said she was being compelled to testify in a case involving one of her clients. When she got served she assumed it was from me. I wonder what she thought at that moment. I'll ask her when I see her. We're supposed to meet at a restaurant tomorrow night.
Last year I was so hungry to talk with her, now I feel very srange. A big part of me just wants to walk away and leave all this crap behind. The other part of me knows we need to talk. I have to strike a balance between protecting myself, yet being present enough to hear what she has to say, without kneejerk reaction.
Ok, can't wait until morning. Here's what went down tonight when I met my W out for a couple drinks.
Regardless of what I may or may not want looking forward, I followed standard DB rules, and I made sure I was looking my best. She arrives and is acting very friendly. We have small talk about various things until I finally just ask her "So why are you suing me?" She gets serious and says she thinks the kids are not doing as well as they could, and that they need more stability. She wants them to start sleeping primarily at her house, in return she'll give me more time with them in the evenings when I'm not at work. She was spinning it like I would get more overall time with them. I was skeptical, but I listened and didn't react. I said I was open to being flexible regarding the kids, but I don't see myself giving up my custody, and no way would I make a decision right there and then. She dug her heals in, but it stayed civil and friendly.
Then she said "Let's talk about us." I said "Ok." She asked what was up with my flirting lately. I was puzzled and said I hugged her at the restaurant because I felt a connection at the kids doctors's appts, and that she looked sad. She said "I was sad." She said "I don't know what to make of it, but I'm attracted to you again. I'm not scared of you, and I think I'm strong enough to handle us again." I asked why, and she said "Because of how you've handled this whole lawsuit thing." I said "I didn't do anything" and she said "Exactly, there are a lot of things you could have done, but you didn't, you stayed respectful, and kind." I just nodded.
She said "You're nice again, when we met you were nice, then you got to be such an a**hole." She said "I really loved you then, and I've told you, that never completely went away." I said "I'm not sure why I was so stressed out, but I've realized life is too short to get stressed over unimportant stuff." She asked "So are you seeing anyone?" I hestitated, then remembered a past gucci post. I slowly answered "I'm kinda seeing someone." She smiled, but didn't say anything. Then I smiled back and slowly added "I'm a free agent though." She laughed. She reiterated "You seem like you're nice all the time." I saw an opportunity for a little playing, so I said "Oh, I'm nice all the time now, except when I don't WANT to be nice" and I winked at her. She playfully answered back "It's fun to not be nice at certain times."
Then I got serious, and I explained why I stalled on the separation agreement. I said "Something inside me just said I needed to get away from it all. I needed to go away from you, to heal." She looked sad and nodded. She said "I don't want to get legally separated any more, and I don't want a divorce." I was surprised and puzzled, and said "What do you want then?" She smiled and said "I don't know." I just smiled back. Then I remembered a DanceQueen post, and said something playful again, which I best not repeat here. She responded favorably, then she stood up and looked at me, came over to me and kissed me passionately. I kissed her back, and we actually made out in the bar for a few moments. This is the first time we've kissed like this in several years, and truthfully, a lot longer since it felt as good as it did tonight. I didn't react much though, just enjoyed it. She said "We are in a public place you know." I said "I don't let things like that bother me any more."
That was it, we paid our bill and left. She had to cut it short because our oldest daughter had a fever and she didn't want to leave her too long with a babysitter. She asked if we could get together again, and I said ok. We joked and were playful all the way out the door and to her car, where I hesitated, but I didn't kiss her again. I just walked away.
Wow, have I learned a lot over this whole nightmare of a situation. I thought to myself as I walked away "Can I handle her now? Handle her emotional bullying and manipulation?" I don't know. I do know I'm waaaaaay better equipped to handle it now than I was when we got married eleven years ago!
Sounds like a very good interaction. I think you made a good judgement call to leave her wanting more. It warms my heart to hear that you are being nice. Some dogs can learn new tricks!
Future,
Great job in being non-committal, friendly, flirtatious, and cautious -- all at the same time. I know it's damned difficult.
I think your wife is at the "conflicted" stage. My advice would be to try a two-pronged approach:
1. Stay firm legally. Do not give up custody, but perhaps offer a "re-visit things after 90 days" thing.
2. Stay NICE -- in fact, err on the side of being WAY nice.
I'm suggesting this for a reason. It should quickly help you ascertain whether your wife's newfound niceness is sincere, or if it's just more manipulation designed to get you to soften your legal stance.
Puppy
P.S.
3. Do NOT, under any circumstances, have sex with her! If you do the above two things, she will either:
a. Work with you nicely, in a spirit of compromise, further showing her changes are sincere;
b. React negatively and immediately, showing you she WASN'T sincere; or
c. Try a different tack, when she sees that this one isn't working. That tack is highly likely to be her trying to seduce you.
Future,
There's a reason why your meeting with your wife sounded so familiar to me.
From my personal archives:
7/22 – I awoke this morning to a note from (Wife) by the empty coffee-maker: “(Puppy) – Can we meet at Starbucks this morning for a cup of coffee? (Wife)” I asked her "do we not have any coffee?" and she said "No, I just thought we could talk. Is that okay?"
Her voice was VERY sweet -- a tone I hadn't heard in a long time.
My mind raced, and I immediately cursed myself that it was the FIRST DAY IN TWO WEEKS that I had not awoke early to start my day in prayer and in the Word, and now I was feeling ill-equipped to go have a talk and try to separate truth from b.s. I took a quick shower, and prayed, for wisdom, discernment and not to go all "melty-man" (which I have been known to do). :o)
When we got to Starbucks, she presented me with a five-page handwritten note, which she said she wrote at 5:30am this morning when she couldn't sleep. 3/4ths of it was devoted to pleading with me NOT to go for custody of the boys, or -- as she, D18 and her parents have been phrasing it since Friday -- "take the boys away from me/her."
I told her that I didn't trust her right now, that yes, she HAD been a very good mother, but that lately she had been reckless, deceitful and irresponsible, and that I could not in good conscience allow S14 and S11 to live in that environment. She kept saying that "I would NEVER do anything to harm them!", etc., and even liberally thrown in a bunch of "I swear to GOD!"s.
I remained nonplussed.
I told her that I simply could not trust her, and pointed out to her the times when her behavior and choices HAD been "bad parenting," asking what would have happened if a friend of S14’s at school said 'I saw your mom and some guy who wasn't your dad making out in a car the other day," or the time D18 found that sexual stuff on the computer, and especially the times when she would come home 2 hours later from work, leaving the boys home alone in the middle of the day, so she could go hook up and have sex with (OM). She didn't deny any of those, but kept offering verbal assurances that the affair was over (I said "I wish I could believe that (Wife), but you've lied to me and everyone else you care about in regards to that for so long, that I can't") and that her FUTURE behavior would be that of a model mother.
I made no commitments. I said that I was NOT going to give her the promise she was looking for, and only that I would think about it and pray about it, and told her that I was doubtful, that I hadn't entered into the decision to go for custody lightly, and that I already thought I was acting in what I strongly felt was the best interest of the boys. And I used the example of an abusive husband, who tells his wife "I swear, I haven't had a drink in a WHOLE WEEK, and I swear to God, I will never lift a hand to you again!", and that the only appropriate response to that is "Well, I'm leaving because I no longer trust you, I no longer trust you around our children, and when you've been in A-A and sober for 6 months, and have others who can verify that, then we can sit down and talk."
She's absolutely FREAKING OUT that she may lose the boys, or even that they will have to endure meeting with an evaluator because of all of this. I reminded her that it was HER behavior that caused this, and that I would not even be seeking custody if not for the affair, and the way she deceitfully and stubbornly persisted in it for over 2 months.
I'm getting a lot of pressure from not only (Wife), but D18 and (Wife)'s parents as well. They're positioning this as I'm "taking the boys away from their mother," which annoys me and hurts me, because where is it written that I'm NOT supposed to want them to live with me???
I went to church alone this morning, an then ran to Lowe’s. When I came home, she was coming out of the house and said she was going to keep D18 company at work for about an hour (she tanned!), and then go work out with D20 at the gym on (local street). She stopped at grocery store on her way home, and didn’t get home until about 7pm. I spent the afternoon playing in the pool with the boys and cleaning the turtle tank.
Tonite before dinner, I was grilling outside, and I came in to find her lying on the couch, with the blanket up over her face. At first I thought she was just sleeping, maybe blocking a bright light from her eyes, but then I noticed no lights ON in that room, so I asked her why she had a blanket over her face and I noticed she was crying. I asked her twice what was wrong, she wouldn’t answer me, so I didn’t rescue. She came to the dinner table with eyes all red and swollen and still teary, and started crying a little a couple of times during dinner.
7/23 – I asked her point-blank this morning something I said I had neglected to ask yesterday, and that had been bothering me. “Where did you go when you left the gym suddenly the other night?” Without hesitation, she said “I went by his friend’s house, to talk to him. It was part of what I mentioned to you yesterday about pulling back away from him.” I said “Thank you, I appreciate you giving me an honest answer. So why didn’t you just tell me that the other night, instead of lying and saying you were going to CVS?” “Because,” she said, “I knew you’d think I was doing something over there, and I wasn’t. He called me when I was at the gym, and so I went over to talk to him. Besides, I was only there about five minutes.” Again, I said “Well I at least appreciate you being honest,” and I walked away.
7/24 – (Wife) has been on her absolute best behavior ever since Sunday. I think she’s fearing the custody issue, and trying very hard not to give me any “ammo” to use against her, although I’m hoping that some of this is just good common sense and better decision-making on her part, period. She’s coming right home from work, making sure the boys are well-taken-care-of, and is intent on explaining to me any delays in her schedule. Cellphone usage seems to be down, but the text messaging is still pretty high. She has been extremely kind to me around the house.
Her cellphone bill came in the mail; I need to see if it came with the detailed billing. She also got her past-due credit card statement, which is right back up to $15,000+ total balance, $1,000+ due and $500+ PAST due, and yet she’s made no attempt to make a payment despite having $830 or so sitting in her account, nor has she asked me for my portion.
7/25 – Although the cellphone conversations are way down, she has sent a whopping 95 text messages in the past 24 hours! A quick check with D18 revealed that not more than about 10-12x are from her. Whether it’s romantic/sexual or not, contact with OM is obviously still at a flurry, which leads me to suspect that her niceness is merely short-lived and insincere, and an effort to get me to withdraw my custody request. Ain’t gonna happen. She’s also still hiding her cellphone and her purse, taking them both into the bathroom with her when she showers, etc.
Apparently she has changed her mind about attorneys AGAIN. She now has an appointment on her calendar – and in her planner – for this Friday with an (Jane Bulldog), of Bulldog, Bulldog Smith & Bulldog, of (local town). I’ve never heard of her, there’s VERY little on the web about her, and her own site is under construction although it doesn’t indicate that it is. She doesn’t even seem to be a family law attorney, but rather a criminal attorney. I let (my atty) know, and we’ll see if he knows her, but I can’t believe how all-over-the-map (Wife) is about such an important decision as this.
7/26 – Today should be an interesting day. With (Wife)’s appointment with her attorney set for tomorrow, I’m expecting her to try and pin me down to see if I changed my mind about pursuing custody of the boys. I haven’t, and it should be very instructive to see to what extent my refusal will affect her mood toward me and her stay-at-home ways.
It’s actually been a quiet day. (Wife)’s still acting as nice as can be, and as of 10pm, now that I’m back from taking the boys to the movies, she still hasn’t confronted me about my decision. She did talk to her parents (she called them) for a full 30 minutes this afternoon. While I took the boys to the movies, she worked and then worked out, and then came straight home.
7/27 – (Wife) met with her attorney this afternoon, apparently for 30-45 minutes according to GPS data. It will be interesting to see if/what she brings up this evening. She hasn’t called as of yet (it’s 4:15 right now).
Gave (Wife)’s mom a quick call this morning; it was good to chat. They are talking the boys out for lunch today, which will be good for them to get out of the house a little. They used to take S14 out every Friday when he was little, for (local pizza joint) and Big Lots; it was their little ritual. They've never really done it much with S11 for some reason.
(Wife)'s mom asked me how everything was going, and I said "good -- work is busy," and she said "No, I mean with (Wife)." I said "Fine, fine." She said "I mean, you're TALKING now, right?" I said "Yes, we're talking. We're being nice." then I added, teasing, "Of course, I've ALWAYS been nice, Mom -- she was the one who wouldn't talk to me for two days!" and laughed.
She then said "You know, she said she's not seeing him anymore." I said – very indifferently – “So she says. She's an adult, and that's' her choice, Mom." She said "I asked her, I said 'How's (OM)Y?' and she said 'I don't see him anymore, Mom, I told him my kids come first.'" I just said "That's good -- that's healthy." She added, again for emphasis, "She's spending time with those kids I guess," and I said "I'm glad -- that's good," and left it at that. She did add at one point, I think when I was talking about my girls, that "They love their daddy, that's for sure, (Puppy)," which I took as a sort of an olive branch after her comment on the day that (Wife) was served about "WHAT IF A JUDGE MAKES THE WRONG DECISION?!", which I took exception to.
7/28 – (Wife) is acting totally aloof and distant, and working on her legal papers in secret for some reason. She’s all chatty and sweet with her parents, even her mom, and she’s done an incredible job of getting everyone re-snowed. They’re all in for a rude awakening when they find out she’s still lying to them about (OM) contact. I found her legal documents, and her lawyer is charging her a $3,500 retainer, which (Wife) SIGNED, so I’m wondering where the hell she is going to come up with THAT money. That’s probably why she had an old credit card statement in her purse, and was going thru all of the old mail on the counter today (after leaving it be all summer), as she looks for credit cards with some available balance on them. Little does she know that we have none.
7/29 - It's become painfully obvious what her plan is.
She's being Supermom, full of love, compassion and energy, doing everything for everyBODY (except me, of course), and winning them all over to her side.
Suddenly she gets the boys dessert (formerly, 9 nights out of 10, she'd be passed out on the couch by the time they typically get dessert on a non-school nite, and even on school nites, it was usually my task).
Suddenly SHE takes them for a haircut (I always did).
Suddenly she spends all kinds of conversation and "caring" time with the boys that she never did before, and CERTAINLY didn't do during the midst of the affair.
She's obviously been coached, and is building her case for custody, as she ONLY began doing things after I had her served.
btw, I found a handwritten notes in her Planner that says:
"Loan - 14 mos. $250
Credit card 350
Cell phone 70
Total $670
Either someone has agreed to give her a no-interest loan (maybe her attorney? Her father?), or she doesn't know how to calculate interest.
We’re invited to her parents for macaroni today – our whole family. Last nite I got into such a fight with the girls over money that neither one of them wanted to come today. I think I’ll just bow out and let them all go.
7/30 – I came home from work tonite after dropping off grocery money and gas money for the girls and visiting with D18 at her condo. (Wife)’s working, so I made dinner for the boys. The following questions were written by (Wife) and left out on the counter, folded, but on top of a stack of papers:
In HER order (although bold red is mine):
“1. Can I continue to see ?
2. Child support/alimony
3. Temp financial help, especially regarding my credit card bill. I cannot pay the 1,500 payment. He is only giving me 1/3.
4. Child custody!! Who gets/do I have to agree to mediation
5. Financial papers -- I do not have, he does. How can I be able to produce these?
6. My engagement ring and diamond & sapphire ring. Can I get these back?
7. What things must I avoid now until divorce is final?
8. Who pays for:
-- health insurance for kids
-- braces for S14
-- catholic school tuition “
END OF QUOTE.
I DO NOT HAVE HER DIAMOND AND SAPPHIRE RING, AND I NEVER HAD HER ENGAGEMENT RING!! DID SHE LOSE IT??? I SWEAR I SAW IT IN HER DRAWER.
In any event, it's obvious what her priorities are -- "Can I see (OM)?" And "what about appearances" and "what about the money?"
How sad.
7/31 – Well, I don't think it's going to take very long for me to "outlast" (Wife) and her “good behavior.” Since just late yesterday afternoon, she sent & received NINETY-ONE text messages.
She went to bed fairly early last night, probably so she could go up to her room and text message w/(OM). Since meeting with her attorney four days ago, she has sent & received 420 text messages, or 105 per day, or a whopping 3,000+ per month!!! (her previous pace, even during the affair, was 900-1000/mo.).
Increased contact w/(OM), esp. via text now that the outward relationship has been either back-burned or driven underground, and increased damage control/spin with d20 and D18.
NOT the behavior of a responsible, repentant adult and mother who "gets" what she's done and what she needs to do to improve herself. I fully expect her to not be able to restrain herself, and to re-establish physical contact with (OM) very soon.
7/31 – UPDATE – 5 minutes later! --- ***Well, that didn’t take long! No sooner had I hit "Save" on that one, that I got an Alert saying that (Wife) had left -- and then re-entered -- the gym. So I checked the GPS map, and sure enough she went and parked across the street from the gym briefly. There's nothing over there but an office building parking lot, and she appeared to be BEHIND it at that. This is the fourth or fifth time she has done this in the past two weeks, taking a quick break from work and driving to either a nearby parking lot or a nearby neighborhood and parking her car. If she merely needed to make a phone call in private (say, to her attorney), I’m sure that the gym would let her use a private office, or she could just go to her car where it is parked out in front of the gym and make her call. She’s obviously meeting with (OM).
Future, I obviously didn't yet have the benefit of hindsight, but now that I have gone thru REAL remorse (which came just one month later than the above) and FAUX remorse, I can tell you that they are VERY different.
I could of course be wrong, but I see no reason why, if your wife is genuinely interested in working things out with you, she couldn't wait for 3 months if you're being nice to her the entire way.
Puppy
By the way, the $3,500 loan for her retainer, as it turned out, came from OM.
Sounds like a very good interaction. I think you made a good judgement call to leave her wanting more. It warms my heart to hear that you are being nice. Some dogs can learn new tricks!
Thanks Lotus. I've always had a "nice guy" tendancy, it's just that now I'm making sure to maintain my own boundaries, and stand up for myself, in a constructive way. In the past when I thought I was being taken advantage of, I'd get moody and randomly leak out anger. An infuriating "nice guy" trait that contributed to my poor marriage.
Great job in being non-committal, friendly, flirtatious, and cautious -- all at the same time. I know it's damned difficult.
Thanks Puppy. It is difficult, but made easier by detachment. I guess I finally got there! Too bad it took me over a year...
I will not voluntarily give up my custody. She keeps throwing out things like "Think about the kids instead of yourself." I reply "The kids need to be with me as much as they are with you." Then she says "I'm their mother and I've been their primary caregiver since birth." Round and round we go.
I may point out to her that if we are on a path that may lead to reconciliation, then we will start spending more time together as a family, and so we'll each get more time with the kids. Maybe that will get her to back off for a while, perhaps 90 days as you suggested Puppy.
I will continue to be nice, and friendly, and flirtatious. A tough balance between letting her know I'm interested, without making her feel she's in the driver's seat. In fact, I want her to know she's NOT in the driver's seat.
Regarding your posts from your past sitch, I do see many similarities, and a few differences. I am worried about manipulation, and I've learned enough to know that sex is a common tool used in these circumstances. In my case, I have the advantage that OM is on the other side of the world. I'm relatively certain the A is over. After she asked me last night if I was seeing anyone, she said "Well, I'm not seeing anyone, and I'm not planning on seeing anyone." Since this is right before she kissed me, I assume she was implying other than me. Is there any ongoing contact with OM? I don't know. I haven't pursued intel for over a year, and I'm really not interested in doing it now. If my W and I are to take any step forward, I will need her to assure me all contact is severed, forever. Will I insist on transparency? I don't know. Interesting, as I think about it, if she is still contacting OM, I'm less affected by thoughts that it indicates her A isn't fully over, and more affected by how it makes me feel about her, that she's manipulating both sides of this in such an ugly manner.
Unfortunately, I think I will also need her to give up all travel to OM's country altogether. She will strongly resist making that concession, but I'm not sure our M can, nor should need to, survive her ongoing trips there, even with her assurance she's not going to see OM.
If we do reconcile, I suppose at some point I will need to discuss OM with her. Puppy, at what point did those discussions occur in your reconciliation? How long did it take before thoughts of OM started to subside in your mind? Was it brutal at first?
"Think about the kids instead of yourself."
Your response: "I am"
"I'm their mother and I've been their primary caregiver since birth."
Your response: "I'm their father and I've made sure they have been well looked after since birth."
I may point out to her that if we are on a path that may lead to reconciliation, then we will start spending more time together as a family, and so we'll each get more time with the kids.
Get off the pursuing bandwagon already and let her do some work for a change.
I will continue to be nice, and friendly, and flirtatious.
And NOT too available and slightly distant. If I was you I would keep up your friendship with that other lady. I would be one helluva lot less available and would make sure to sidestep the hoops she has prepared for you to jump through.
If she wants back in she will make the effort... I honestly don't know why the heck you're thinking about changing tack now when it has been working. LET HER PURSUE YOU. You are in demand. A valuable commodity. Not just anyone - ESPECIALLY a woman who has cheated on you, used you, abused you, tricked you, lied to you and led you on the wonderful merry-go-round of rejection - can get your attention.
A tough balance between letting her know I'm interested, without making her feel she's in the driver's seat. In fact, I want her to know she's NOT in the driver's seat.
And you do that by following the path you have been on.
In my case, I have the advantage that OM is on the other side of the world.
And here buckwheat is where you still DON'T GET IT. The goal is to own as much mental real estate in her mind as you can get. He OWNS her mind and has had ownership of it for about TWO years.
If she is thinking of you, what you are doing, who you are doing it with, when you are doing it, has she lost you for good, how she can get you back... THAT IS GOOD.
I'm relatively certain the A is over.
That's because OM decided that. I bet you that if he so much as sends a small text it will reignite her fantasies and she will drop you like a hot potatoe. PLEASE TRUST ME ON THIS.
she said "Well, I'm not seeing anyone, and I'm not planning on seeing anyone."
BZZZTT ... wrong answer babe. Did you see the escape clause? I did... one word... "planning"
Since this is right before she kissed me, I assume she was implying other than me.
How have your ass-umptions worked out for you in the past?
If my W and I are to take any step forward,
See how you're being drawn back into the melting pot? A few nice words, a kiss... and Future's hormones and hopes are raging again. Two words: DROP IT.
Will I insist on transparency? I don't know.
Are you that desperate? If you are I'll put on my diving suit and come visit your wreck at the bottom of the ocean. Transparency is a NON-NEGOTIABLE requirement.
and more affected by how it makes me feel about her, that she's manipulating both sides of this in such an ugly manner.
Look into a recent history... this is not something new for her.
Unfortunately, I think I will also need her to give up all travel to OM's country altogether.
You're a LONNNNNNNG way from that my friend. But yes, that's a reasonable request.
She will strongly resist making that concession,
Really? Then dump her.
but I'm not sure our M can, nor should need to, survive her ongoing trips there,
It won't because it will leave you a bubbling shell of what used to be a man.
In case you didn't get the message so far... keep on your previous course. Do not blink. Do not look back. Keep the interesting other girl in the picture. You are nowhere near thinking about reconciliation. Geez man, get a grip on yourself! Are you honestly that easy?
You stay your course and if she is committed she will chase after YOU! She has a proven track record. Are you really that fogged out to see that if she really wants you she will chase you to the ends of the Earth... like she did with OM? Wake up brother. Keep living your wonderful new life of freedom. If she wants "in" she will make the effort.
Hi Future,
Its been awhile. A few weeks and a LOT has happened. My divorce was finalized, I had a "Bachelorette Fete" to mark a new beginning, I met a nice man, I ran into my H and his GF (the day before our Divorce) at a restaurant and actually shook hands with the OW (not at ALL what I expected--she's dumpy!)...I had three wonderful dates with this new man, who is generous and kind and thinks I the best thing going in town...
And now my XH is sending me text messages about how miserable he is and how his life has only gotten worse and worse since he met the OW in 2008. I can already see it coming on...and frankly, right now, I don't want him back. He hasn't LEARNED anything.
Future, she's been counting on you being her Plan B. She got nervous when she saw you were moving on. Don't be anyone's Plan B. Don't do anything quickly and nothing slowly, even, unless and until she shows you that SHE has learned something...
What's this about how YOU were such an a**hole? Jeez, doesn't she take ANY responsibility for her actions????
I'm relatively certain the A is over. After she asked me last night if I was seeing anyone, she said "Well, I'm not seeing anyone, and I'm not planning on seeing anyone." Since this is right before she kissed me, I assume she was implying other than me. Is there any ongoing contact with OM? I don't know. I haven't pursued intel for over a year, and I'm really not interested in doing it now. If my W and I are to take any step forward, I will need her to assure me all contact is severed, forever. Will I insist on transparency? I don't know.
With all due respect, Future, this "plan" of yours is so full of holes, I don't know where to start."I don't know" is not a position from which to make MAJOR -- potentially LIFE-CHANGING -- decisions (divorce, custody, etc.).
Trying to reconcile without transparency is a recipe for disaster. The recidivism rate for infidelity is high, and when there is no "no-contact" letter sent, no transparency, and no good, infidelity-based MCing, it's EXTREMELY high -- I'd estimate over 90%.
As for her "assuring" you, if there IS no more contact, she will say there is no more contact. And if there IS still contact, she will say there is no more contact.
Good luck with that.By the way, how can you be "relatively certain" the affair is over, if you have no intel???
Puppy
Wow, the 2x4's are whacking me left and right. I'm all bruised up. Thank God I post my thoughts here before I actually do anything. Realize I haven't even contacted W since our interaction last night.
Maybe my posts sound more literal than they are. I have no "plan". I'm not doing anything, just pondering. One thing I've learned through all this is to NOT act impulsively. I'm sure W is wondering "Why isn't he contacting me?" She contacted me twice today, once to tell me how our sick daughter is doing, and once to ask me to go see a movie with her Monday night. I haven't given her a reply yet.
I appreciate everyone's responses and concern. My friends and family are expressing very similar thoughts to what I'm getting here. I'm really not swayed by her words, or kisses, like I would have been a year ago. I'm still very muching GALing. I was out tonight after playing basketball, I have plans tomorrow night, and tentative plans Saturday night too.
Get off the pursuing bandwagon already and let her do some work for a change.
And NOT too available and slightly distant. If I was you I would keep up your friendship with that other lady. I would be one helluva lot less available and would make sure to sidestep the hoops she has prepared for you to jump through.
If she wants back in she will make the effort... I honestly don't know why the heck you're thinking about changing tack now when it has been working. LET HER PURSUE YOU. You are in demand. A valuable commodity. Not just anyone - ESPECIALLY a woman who has cheated on you, used you, abused you, tricked you, lied to you and led you on the wonderful merry-go-round of rejection - can get your attention.
I have done NOTHING to pursue her, not for several months. I'm not sure I even want to reconcile with her. She's the one doing the pursuing.
And here buckwheat is where you still DON'T GET IT. The goal is to own as much mental real estate in her mind as you can get. He OWNS her mind and has had ownership of it for about TWO years.
If she is thinking of you, what you are doing, who you are doing it with, when you are doing it, has she lost you for good, how she can get you back... THAT IS GOOD.
How do I not get it? I totally get it. That's why I'm not responding to her asking for a date yet. She'll be wondering all night.
That's because OM decided that. I bet you that if he so much as sends a small text it will reignite her fantasies and she will drop you like a hot potatoe. PLEASE TRUST ME ON THIS.
I really don't know, but I wouldn't doubt it. Again realize, he's on the other side of the world. She has her kids here. He told her he'd move here, then he weaseled out of it. I think she saw his true colors a bit, but I really don't know. At some point, I need to ask about this, if I care.
BZZZTT ... wrong answer babe. Did you see the escape clause? I did... one word... "planning"
How have your ass-umptions worked out for you in the past?
See how you're being drawn back into the melting pot? A few nice words, a kiss... and Future's hormones and hopes are raging again. Two words: DROP IT.
You're reading too much into this. I was merely pointing out the obvious, that she said she doesn't want to date anyone, then she kissed me, so I assumed she meant she DID want to date me. Given that she asked me out tonight, I'd say I was right. My hopes are irrelevent, since I don't know if I even want her back, let alone hope for it. My hormones are fine, thanks. I admit, my posts sound a little excited. I have waited for this for a long time.
Are you that desperate? If you are I'll put on my diving suit and come visit your wreck at the bottom of the ocean. Transparency is a NON-NEGOTIABLE requirement.
I have to admit, I'm pondering this a bit. I was taken by a post Steve McQueen or gucci or robx posted, that said asking for transparency is a demonsration of weakness. Either I believe and trust her or I don't. If I don't, I should leave her behind, but if I choose not to, I have to be willing to risk further heartbreak.
In case you didn't get the message so far... keep on your previous course. Do not blink. Do not look back. Keep the interesting other girl in the picture. You are nowhere near thinking about reconciliation. Geez man, get a grip on yourself! Are you honestly that easy?
You stay your course and if she is committed she will chase after YOU! She has a proven track record. Are you really that fogged out to see that if she really wants you she will chase you to the ends of the Earth... like she did with OM? Wake up brother. Keep living your wonderful new life of freedom. If she wants "in" she will make the effort.
I hear you loud and clear. I will not be easy. I'm not thinking about reconciliation. I'm thinking about dating her. There were actually two women I was dating recently, but they've both petered out, which is fine. Don't want W to know that though, and if I meet someone else I like, I'll date her too.
I do want to know if W will chase me. She has already chased a bit. I'll keep my distance. Even if I do decide to spend some time with her, I'll be coy about my life, and how she fits into it.
Hi Future,
Its been awhile. A few weeks and a LOT has happened. My divorce was finalized, I had a "Bachelorette Fete" to mark a new beginning, I met a nice man, I ran into my H and his GF (the day before our Divorce) at a restaurant and actually shook hands with the OW (not at ALL what I expected--she's dumpy!)...I had three wonderful dates with this new man, who is generous and kind and thinks I the best thing going in town...
And now my XH is sending me text messages about how miserable he is and how his life has only gotten worse and worse since he met the OW in 2008. I can already see it coming on...and frankly, right now, I don't want him back. He hasn't LEARNED anything.
Future, she's been counting on you being her Plan B. She got nervous when she saw you were moving on. Don't be anyone's Plan B. Don't do anything quickly and nothing slowly, even, unless and until she shows you that SHE has learned something...
What's this about how YOU were such an a**hole? Jeez, doesn't she take ANY responsibility for her actions????
musclegal! I have been wondering what's up with you. Sounds liek you're doing great. Not at all surprised how your H is starting to long for his old life. Just as in my case, hold tough.
I totally hear you about being plan B. I may even bring that up to her and see if she has any way to defend that argument. I didn't at all mind her calling me an a**hole. I was an a**hole in many ways during our M, and she absolutely has owned her own failings too. You need to go way back in my history here, but when she and I were talking last fall, she was very brutal with herself on how she failed me and our M, in terms of financially and emotionally. She referred to herself as "the biggest loser wife in the world". I was blown away.
With all due respect, Future, this "plan" of yours is so full of holes, I don't know where to start.
"I don't know" is not a position from which to make MAJOR -- potentially LIFE-CHANGING -- decisions (divorce, custody, etc.).
Trying to reconcile without transparency is a recipe for disaster. The recidivism rate for infidelity is high, and when there is no "no-contact" letter sent, no transparency, and no good, infidelity-based MCing, it's EXTREMELY high -- I'd estimate over 90%.
As for her "assuring" you, if there IS no more contact, she will say there is no more contact. And if there IS still contact, she will say there is no more contact. Good luck with that.
By the way, how can you be "relatively certain" the affair is over, if you have no intel???
Again, I don't really have a plan right now, I'm just throwing out my thoughts and feelings, totally for the purpose of getting reactions and opinions from folks here, which I greatly appreicate.
I will probably require some sort of plan for dealing with her infidelity, again assuming I even want to move forward with her. Again though, the fact that OM is so far away makes it a bit easier for me. She can't bump into him, or spontaneously arrange an afternoon meeting. It takes her a day to get there and a day to get back, so it would be pretty obvious if she were to leave for three days! However, he could always come here, shore up in a hotel, and arrange some afternoon delight. So far he's shown himself to be a coward, always requiring her to come to him.
As I said in my ealier post, I'm not sure I'm real big on demanding transparency, it seems so weak. I would have to make it clear that if she EVER betrays me again, at all, I will be absolutely GONE, for good, and I will be merciless in the divorce. It all has to do with being the strong man I never was in our M.
In my case, I'm not worried about casual recitivism during reconciliation. I not NOT worried about it, but my major concern is more like ten to fifteen years from now, when the kids are grown up, and if our M hits a rough patch, will she run back to OM? That's what I'm worried about, and I can't demand transparency for the rest of our life together. That's how I'm stuck, and that's why I very well might decide to just leave her and my M behind. I don't know if I want to spend the rest of my life worrying about that.
I understand that I can't trust her regarding her statements about OM. Again, since he's so far away, I can get some amount of assurance as time goes by and she doesn't go back there. I know from previous intel that their long distance thing was NOT working out, which was a big reason it ended. Right after the first time she met up with him they "broke up" because it was impossible. She got it going again, but it had nowhere near the excitement and luster, and when she got back from seeing him the second time, they broke up again, for longer. She scraped and scrounged and begged and managed to get it sort of going again, but it was seriously dying last fall when she went the last time. I have no idea what happened, as I had stopped my intel by then for my own sanity, but immeiately upon return she told me she wasn't going back. This last time she went she didn't stay with OM, I do know that from a little intel. She did legitimately spend most of her time in training for her work. She may have seen OM, probably did, and probably had sex with him too, but I do know their romance was on serious life support.
She's come out of the fog to some degree, and she sees how he backed away from his previous intent to move here so they could be blissfully happy. W was going through her heartbreak last fall, and now seems over it to a large degree. It's been three to six months, depending on exactly what happend, but from what I understand, that's a reasonable time for the obsession over an A to be nearly erased. But as you say Puppy, I don't really KNOW, since I refuse to do the intel thing again. My soul can't handle any more. If I decide to try for reconciliation, I'll have to trust to some degree. I always thought I'd insist on a no contact letter though, so I'd probably do that.
Have you considered going to a Retrouvaille weekend with her? I understand that you don't trust the woman she has been and perhaps still is. But people can and do change if the choose to. I know because I have done it myself, and so has my husband. And we did it with the help of the Retrouvaille program. It is a matter of looking introspectively and deciding what you want for your life, and then living by the choices that you have made.
Future,
It might be too soon for Retrouvaille. Lotus is right that it is a great program. It will work, but only if you BOTH have DECIDED you want to TRY to reconcile and to put all your efforts into it. Otherwise, it won't work. And if she's still thinking about OM, even if its just in her fantasies, it will be difficult. At least that's what happened to me. I don't think it will work until/unless you are to that point...and it is a pretty emotional experience. But if you get there, and you both decide openly and honestly that you want to try to get back together--after considerable thought and consideration (not just a nice kiss and a couple of hugs) then its the best thing out there in terms of giving it your best shot. I wouldn't try it again unless we were way out in terms of time and place of the A.
I have thought about Retrovaille in the past. Perhaps it's a good thing that the next Retrovaille near here isn't until this fall, because I agree, it's way too soon. Musclegal, did you go to Retrovaille?
I need to decide what I even want, and I'm in no hurry to do so. Like Gnosis said, I need to stay on the course I was on, but I won't be quite so absolutely distant from her. Realize over the last few months I barely acknowledged her, even when she was right next to me. It was good for me to help me detach, but it had a tinge of ugliness to it, like I wasn't even giving her basic human respect. I think I'm detached enough now that I can at least give her that. The fact that she took that without acting insulted showed me that she does feel guilt for what she's done, and that she knows she deserved that treatment at some level.
I also know she never quite let go of her love for me. I could see it in her through all this. Puppy and sandi2 have even detected and commented on it as this situation evolved. I know I was a very poor husband to her in a fundamental way, a way that I've learned leads directly to an A. I know how she grew up also contributed to her suceptibility to an A. These are all reasons I choose not to just take a "f*ck her" attitude. If she has truly reflected on these things, and has let go of OM, and truly wants to save our M and family, I'm going to have a hard time just walking away. I have learned the value of time though, so I'm in no hurry to do anything.
That's what I'm worried about, and I can't demand transparency for the rest of our life together. That's how I'm stuck, and that's why I very well might decide to just leave her and my M behind. I don't know if I want to spend the rest of my life worrying about that.
That makes no sense to me, and just sounds defeatist and fatalistic. Your logic is, "it's weak to demand transparency, so I just need to trust her, and I'm not sure if I CAN trust her, so maybe I'll just chuck the marriage and leave her behind."
I haven't seen the direct quotes from Robx and McQueen about transparency, but if that's what they said, I strongly disagree. I'd rather go by what the BEST INFIDELITY EXPERTS SAY out there (Glass, Harley, McGraw, Tuppy, et al), and a good transparency plan -- for some temporary period of time -- is ESSENTIAL.
I do know that Robx advocates a pretty high-risk, but totally-drop-the-rope plan that -- in certain instances -- I LIKE, and that I've even quoted and recommended around here:
RobX’s approach:
Sit her down and have a discussion with her.
No need to be mad, angry, a$$hole, prick on anything,
keep it calm, light but straight forward, direct to the point, etc. Don't make it last more than a few minutes.
You tell her trust is based on actions that are consistent.
You don't trust her because she hasn't been consistent.
You don't trust her because she's been lying to you, in fact you tell her that is what you trust her to continue doing, because she has been lying to your consistently - that's what you can trust.
For you to be able to trust her, she has to build trust.
Sure you can trust her blindly and have faith and all that good stuff but honestly how well has that worked up to this point?
Don't ask for for full disclosure.
Do the opposite.
Tell her this:
"... I don't want your cell phone records, I don't want to look at your cell phone text msg's and call history, I don't want your email or fb password, I don't want your voicemail pw. If I have to monitor you 24/7 to force you to be consistent, that won't work for me because that's not what I want or need.
I wanted you to be trustworthy but I don't need you to be anything, truth be told, I'll be just fine without you, I see that now.
From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that.
If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now.
If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long.
I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."
No being mean, spiteful, vindictive, you let her go.
No more discussions, arguments, no more talks about lies, no more sneaking around behind your back, she can do what she wants but you are letting her go to do what she wants to do but at the same time, you are now allowing yourself to be free of this crappy limbo place you've been living in for so long.
Bro, if she wants to be with you, she'll be with you, no amount of a$$ kissing, sneaking, snooping, being mean, angry, standing tall, etc. is going to change that.
You be the best gosh darn example of a MAN for you and for you only. If she wants this great MAN that you are in her life, she'll pursue you and do what it takes to be a part of that.
You need to respect yourself first, that's the first step and letting go of your wife her untrustworthy ways to establish that your self-respect, dignity and integrity are the most important things in your life is what you NEED and WANT to do. You know what you're worth, go out and get what you're worth and let go of the things that are worthy of you - starting feeling your personal value, know it, resonate with it, live it. You are worth better than what she is giving you right now, if you don't set that boundary, you'll allow her to do this to you forever and who could respect that?
Otherwise continue playing this game and you'll be playing this chase & pursue game, pushing & pulling for the rest of your life.
Time to get off the merry go round, this ride isn't that fun anymore.
I don't think this really fits your sitch, but I do think it would be better than what you're doing now.
Puppy
In my case, I'm not worried about casual recitivism during reconciliation.
I know you're not. And I think that's a grave mistake.
Puppy
But as you say Puppy, I don't really KNOW, since I refuse to do the intel thing again. My soul can't handle any more. If I decide to try for reconciliation, I'll have to trust to some degree. I always thought I'd insist on a no contact letter though, so I'd probably do that.
Save your paper. A no-contact letter, without a good transparency plan behind it, is of no value.
Puppy
I think what bothers me about this situation has much to do with the conversation the two of you had when got together for drinks.
When you asked her why she was suing you for full custody her response was the children need a "full time" home and she had been the primary caregiver since birth. Prior to the lawsuit it seems you and your W had a pretty decent custody plan in place even if it was informal. She certainly had NO issue leaving you with the children when she was off to visit OM.
If her concern for the children was *so* grave why make the leap to an immediate lawsuit without even approaching you first? IMO she lost total control of you and the lawsuit was her way of gaining it back. It makes ZERO sense that somebody who is a trained therapist (your W) would even think for one second a surprise lawsuit was a good first step instead of a conversation between the two vested parties.
Your W may have been the primary caregiver since birth but divorce often changes primary and secondary roles. It's an unfortunate aspect of divorce but it is what it is.
When you and your W had drinks she lightly glossed over the custody/lawsuit issue and went right to the flirty/kissing/digging for info about your personal life issue. I hate to say this but I do wonder if she was gathering intel on your personal life in case the lawsuit does go any further.
If she felt strongly enough to sue you without so much a conversation or heads up then it seems to me if she "hates" the situation that much way more focus would have been put on the custody issue during your date.
I mean, your W was willing to travel halfway around the world to see OM and thought you were more than suitable to be the primary caregiver while she was having her affair. What changed? IMO nothing has changed other than (A) the OM dumped her and (B) she saw you moving on and realized how much control she had lost. And like it or not those reasons have NOTHING to do with the children and that is very, very sad.
I don't know really. We all want the very best for you.
I agree with CityGirl on this. There was no deep discussion on the reason for suing for full custody. She quickly got to your personal life and then the kiss. She's good, at manipulation, that is. Her answer for suing is standard legal speak.
But, I can see that you are stepping lightly and will not give up your half of custody. I don't think you should date her until you have a better and more complete answer to why she is suing you for full custody. For instance, she could give a reason as to why the kids would be better off with her? It's working right now, so why would she rock the boat?
Take care.
Puppy-
Yes, that was the robx post I was thinking of. I liked the spirit of it. I don't have answers, and I'm not committed to any plan. This has all caught me a bit off guard.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the whole "no contact letter, transparency plan" is really for infidelity situations where the A gets busted while it's still in the crazy addiction phase, where the wayward spouse is ripped from OP, and is going through withdrawal. I wish I was stronger in the early days of my sitch, I might have been able to bust the A. From what I know about my W and how she was feeling, I would have been in a CONSTANT battle to try to prevent the A from flaring back up, again and again.
Unfortunately, I didn't bust the A. It ran it's own course over the last two years (!!, wow, time flies when you're having fun). I kept pressure on her, I was tough in our legal mediations, I made it crystal clear that I'd never let her take our kids to OM's country, and I showed her that I would not allow the artifacts from her trips to be in my house. I refused to normalize her A, which drove her nuts. She normalized it within her inner circle of friends, who were giggly with interest over her stories of passion, but me, my family, my friends, one key friend of hers, and most of her family would not accept her A as "ok". All of this I think contributed to the death of the A to some degree. I did what I could to make sure her reality was nowhere near the fantasy of how she thought it would go.
My W has known OM since they were teenagers. He was "in love" with her back then, but she had no interest. They have gone through periods of 10+ years of no contact. I know from intel that she had no contact from him the entire time she knew me until two years ago when our M was falling apart, and she started an e-mail correspondence with him, which grew to an EA, and then PA. I knew from my intel that my W was behaving in a manner I'd never seen. She was over the top crazy about OM, someone who had pursued her in the past and was always rebuffed. This is all common A stuff, and is fueled by years of resentment over her unmet needs in our M. All of a sudden OM became the greatest thing in the world, and she threw herself at him every way she could. My failure as a H led her to feel unwanted at a core level, and OM filled that need.
I didn't mean to imply that I wasn't worried about any further contact with OM, I am, and I could try to deal with that through transparency, but like I said, they've gone through long periods of no contact in the past, and he has no W or family. Deep in the back of my mind I imagine 10-15 years from now, we're empty nesters, our M is going through a lull, my W has had no contact with OM the whole time, but is feeling unhappy, remembers the thrill of her A, gets tempted and in a moment of horrible judgement, as she has shown herself capable of in the past, decides to send OM something like
"Hi OM, I don't know what's going on in your life right now, but I'm finding myself thinking about you and the incredible adventure we shared together. I did try to save my M, mostly for my kids, but they're grown now, and it's clear to me that H and I are not intended to grow old together. I'm now free to travel unencumbered. Do you ever think about the plans we talked about all those years ago?"
Of course in standard WAW fashion, she'll send that to him BEFORE letting me know she's planning on leaving me, and wait to see if she has another option. THAT's what will keep me up at night if I decide to try to save my M. Short term contact I can try to deal with, but this kind of thing will loom out there like a hidden monster, and I refuse the live the rest of my life in fear. My alternatives are:
1. Leave my W and M behind, for good.
2. Keep myself so emotionally strong and avoid co-dependence so that if she does leave me again I'm not devastated.
3. Take it upon myself to make sure our M stays strong and healthy, i.e. make it "affair proof".
The last option is the only one I'm interested in, and it would depend greatly on my W committing to the exact same thing. I hate to sound jaded, but I've learned that at my age, EVERYONE has baggage of one kind or another. At least I know hers. I could leave my M behind, meet some wonderful woman, get married, have no idea that she has a monster looming in the dark too, and get completely blindsided by it.
I NEVER NEVER NEVER thought my W was capable of doing what she did. Other women here say the same thing about themselves. I can't just cast my W aside as "defective", when I know she's just human, like everyone else. Inside, I believe she was 100% committed to our M, and lived for many years having some core needs go unmet, trying and trying to be happy, before going down the path she did. Still, I can't ignore the enormous damage done to me and our R. I believe almost anything is possible, but trusting her again might be beyond my reach. Maybe ignorance is bliss, and even if a new woman has a monster looming, the fact that I don't know about it is a good thing.
I guess what I am confused about is why you are thinking so much about this now (and I realize you are just throwing things out there) when there is a lawsuit looming. Your W did blow off your questions about it and to me that is not good.
Think about it... your W was very sappy and was wearing her ring when you took the children on vacation. You have said numerous times your W looks sad as the children seem to prefer you over her during family time. She claims she has been the primary caregiver to the children but isn't part of that realizing what is BEST for the children? And what is best is to have a very involved mom and dad even if they don't live together. Your children do very well when they are with you. You are doing very well alone/casually dating. IOW, you need her for nothing and she knows it.
Unless your W is willing to drop the lawsuit and surrender to the fact her choices have resulted in 50/50 custody then I would be very, very suspicious of her motives. And, to take it a step further the 50/50 custody no longer should be informal but a formally filed court document.
Once you said the children would not be leaving the country with her she changed her tune really fast. As I said, you were more than suitable to be a full time parent while she was away for 2+ weeks with OM. Once she realized her children would not be a part of her travels she felt punished (IMO) so she decided to punish you right back.
I think what bothers me about this situation has much to do with the conversation the two of you had when got together for drinks.
When you asked her why she was suing you for full custody her response was the children need a "full time" home and she had been the primary caregiver since birth. Prior to the lawsuit it seems you and your W had a pretty decent custody plan in place even if it was informal. She certainly had NO issue leaving you with the children when she was off to visit OM.
If her concern for the children was *so* grave why make the leap to an immediate lawsuit without even approaching you first? IMO she lost total control of you and the lawsuit was her way of gaining it back. It makes ZERO sense that somebody who is a trained therapist (your W) would even think for one second a surprise lawsuit was a good first step instead of a conversation between the two vested parties.
Your W may have been the primary caregiver since birth but divorce often changes primary and secondary roles. It's an unfortunate aspect of divorce but it is what it is.
When you and your W had drinks she lightly glossed over the custody/lawsuit issue and went right to the flirty/kissing/digging for info about your personal life issue. I hate to say this but I do wonder if she was gathering intel on your personal life in case the lawsuit does go any further.
If she felt strongly enough to sue you without so much a conversation or heads up then it seems to me if she "hates" the situation that much way more focus would have been put on the custody issue during your date.
I mean, your W was willing to travel halfway around the world to see OM and thought you were more than suitable to be the primary caregiver while she was having her affair. What changed? IMO nothing has changed other than (A) the OM dumped her and (B) she saw you moving on and realized how much control she had lost. And like it or not those reasons have NOTHING to do with the children and that is very, very sad.
I don't know really. We all want the very best for you.
Thanks CityGirl, I can tell you folks really do care, and I'm touched. The Internet played a big role in the origins of my situation, and part of me hated it for a while, but I also appreciate how it brings help and support from people like those here.
While I don't agree that we "glossed over" the custody discussion, it was the majority of our talk, I do agree it was odd how that transitioned to her wanting to know about my personal life. From how well I know her, and what her Mom told me, I believe she is jealous, and doesn't want to lose me. Our conversation was a combination of sincerity from her and manipulation. I've gotten good at seeing both. In fact, her manipulation was obvious and weak, because she knows her hand is dwindling in strength. She actually said "What happens between us is definitely connected to how you handle yourself regarding this custody issue."
Trained therapist or not, she's is driven by emotion to a large degree, and I'm nearly certain the lawsuit was to get my attention, and it worked. The question is, why does she want my attention? Where on the scale between cake eating and desire for reconciliation do her feelings fall? That I'm NOT good at gauging, and as Gnosis and Puppy said, if I stay the course, it should be more clear.
I agree, our current custody plan is working ok, given the circumstances. The kids are showing no issue in school, are getting good grades, and are generally happy. Yes, they cling to each of us a bit when they're with us, but what does she expect? She only sees them cling to her, funny she can't imagine that they cling to me the same way. And of course, the fact that she left the kids with me during her trips makes her arguments all the more hollow.
I've got a delicate balance to do here. If I pull back and give her no other option, she'll pursue the legal path and things will get ugly and expensive. I will not buckle and let her bully me, so is there a middle ground? Does it involve dating her? Does it involve reconciliation? Like I've said over and over, I need to let time pass and work through all these thoughts.
I understand you have quite a bit to think about and work through.
The thing is... you did give her MANY options for a long time. She chose not to take advantage of any of them. Once you stopped giving her options she sued you. Yes, the legal path will be costly and expensive but that is what she chose. She certainly had an awful lot of leeway for 2+ years to make different choices.
If you feel the only way to protect yourself and your children is to offer her more options then I think you *really* need to evaluate who your W really is.
In most situations we have many options. As time passes the options dwindle. Are you required to offer her options again simply to avoid a legal battle? IMO that keeps you very much under her control.
I guess what I am confused about is why you are thinking so much about this now (and I realize you are just throwing things out there) when there is a lawsuit looming.
The reason I'm thinking so much about it is precisely BECAUSE the lawsuit is looming. A legal guardian has been appointed for my kids. They will need to be interviewed before our next court date in four weeks. If I can de-fuse this bomb before it goes off I will, but only if it agrees with what I want moving forward.
From what I can tell, my W gave me two clear choices. If we are getting divorced, she will fight to get primary custody of the kids. I think she'll lose, but it will be ugly and costly. She then said she doesn't want a divorce and she passionately kissed me. In a nutshell, that's what she did. Maybe her manipulation and arguments were obvious and hollow, but it still comes down to, what do I want?
I kept pressure on her, I was tough in our legal mediations, I made it crystal clear that I'd never let her take our kids to OM's country, and I showed her that I would not allow the artifacts from her trips to be in my house. I refused to normalize her A, which drove her nuts. She normalized it within her inner circle of friends, who were giggly with interest over her stories of passion, but me, my family, my friends, one key friend of hers, and most of her family would not accept her A as "ok". All of this I think contributed to the death of the A to some degree. I did what I could to make sure her reality was nowhere near the fantasy of how she thought it would go.
Correct, and don't get defensive -- if you'll look upthread, you'll see where we're telling you that you DID do things the right way, and THAT'S WHEN/WHY SHE RESPONDED TO YOU.
We're just trying to get you to keep up the pressure and healthy skepticism, that's all.
Puppy
1. Leave my W and M behind, for good.
2. Keep myself so emotionally strong and avoid co-dependence so that if she does leave me again I'm not devastated.
3. Take it upon myself to make sure our M stays strong and healthy, i.e. make it "affair proof".
The last option is the only one I'm interested in, and it would depend greatly on my W committing to the exact same thing.
Actually I misspoke. Among options 2 and 3, I'm only interested in 3. Option 1 is still a possibility too. Although I definitely want to avoid unhealthy co-dependence, option 2 sounds too cold.
1. Leave my W and M behind, for good.
2. Keep myself so emotionally strong and avoid co-dependence so that if she does leave me again I'm not devastated.
3. Take it upon myself to make sure our M stays strong and healthy, i.e. make it "affair proof".
The last option is the only one I'm interested in, and it would depend greatly on my W committing to the exact same thing.
Actually I misspoke. Among options 2 and 3, I'm only interested in 3. Option 1 is still a possibility too. Although I definitely want to avoid unhealthy co-dependence, option 2 sounds too cold.
And yet, most people here -- and probably MWD herself --would tell you "#2" is closer to what the true goal and spirit of DBing is.
"3" smacks of control. "2" is WITHIN your control, and healthier, in my opinion.
Food for thought.
Puppy
And yet, most people here -- and probably MWD herself --would tell you "#2" is closer to what the true goal and spirit of DBing is.
"3" smacks of control. "2" is WITHIN your control, and healthier, in my opinion.
Food for thought.
Puppy
Ha! I hear you. I don't think control is part of "3" though. It follows DBing too, essentially saying "Meet your W's needs." Probably "2" and "3" together are the best option of all.
Future,
I'm glad that you see that you could have been a better husband and that your wife wasn't getting her needs met. But I've read your posts, and I think that you have blamed yourself for your wife's affair. This idea seems to be really popular right now--that its the marriage that causes the affair, even though I've read that many people report being happily married when the A starts. Anyway, there are LOTs of unhappily married people who don't have affairs. Not that I think people should stay UNHAPPY. But a healthy adult will end one relationship before starting another. Maybe one affair can be worked through as a stumble, as a bad learning experience, but your wife has a pattern of this, right, from her other relationships? Hasn't she gone from one relationship into another, starting the next before the first is ended? There is a clear selfishness to having an affair--and I think that there is a certain personality type that will do it primarily for the Plan B option. That person cannot be alone and is very co-dependent. Until your wife can stand on her own two feet, alone, and deal with you as a grown up (without manipulating you for custody), then be very, very, very careful. I agree with Puppy. YOU cannot keep her from having another affair. She is the only one who can do that--and if she is trying to get control of you through this custody thing, that's a BAD, BAD sign to me. You aren't a good enough dad to have joint custody of the kids, but you are good enough to try it again??? What kind of a mixed message is that????
Hi musclegal-
I have gone through periods when I was practically blaming myself for my W's A, but not any more. I think that's a pretty normal part of the LBS process. I do take responsibility for my part of our marital troubles, but I do not excuse her incredibly selfish behavior regarding her A. Our M was not healthy, and one way or another, it needed to change. We tried to change it from within but couldn't. I had some serious issues of my own that I finally got resolved in IC, but it took years, and all the while our M was deteriorating. By the time I was able to START to work on our M, it was pretty far gone, and my W was well down the WAW road. I had also gotten so co-dependent, and was so stagnant as a person that I wasn't much of a partner.
I look back and I'm embarassed how I let myself go. My W lost all respect and attraction to me. She lived in our M for years feeling like that. Funny, she's a MC, yet she herself couldn't understand why. One day a few years ago she broke down and told me weeping "I tried and tried, I just don't feel like that toward you anymore. Can we try just being friends? Maybe if we were friends my feelings will come back." I didn't react very well to that, I felt like she was abandoning me as a H. It was then that I should have taken my serious look at myself and started to "DB", but it didn't hit hard enough. I was slowly coming out of my funk, and becoming a better person, but I chose to resent my W for her feelings, rather than accept them. She still didn't give up, but I was so resentful toward her that I couldn't see her struggling to find a way back. She would drop little sexual comments here and there, looking for a reaction from me, but she'd get back cold resentful replies like "You've made it clear that's none of my business now." The look on her face was one of sad defeat. It was so bad, I hate even remembering it.
I'm not putting on this all on me though. Not by a long shot. My W has issues of her own that led to our M troubles. I know part of my stagnation was due to her relentless complaining and manipulating in our M. I felt trapped with someone who chose to always dwell on what she didn't have rather than appreciate our blessings, which were many. I tried and tried and tried to give her what she wanted, but I eventually just gave up.
After we were done having kids, my W's body righted itself again physically, emotionally, and hormonally. She became increasingly unsatisfied with what our life together offered her. Our M was in such a sad state, she opened herself up more and more to the world outside our M. Eventually that led to her reconnecting with people she knew in her youth, including OM. She began to confide in him. When she realized her feelings for OM were dominating over thoughts of our M, THAT's when she should have been honest with me, THAT's when she should have told me what was going on, and she certainly shouldn't have used and manipulated me the way she did. That's the real damage she did, and why I'm not sure I can trust her again.
Whether my W is able to truly appreciate and be happy with what she has is one thing I'll need to evaluate if we are to reconcile. From what I can tell, she has made some progress. She certainly doesn't complain much, and she seems to genuinely appreciate who I am now. After reading and learning, I know I wasn't speaking her love language in our M, I was speaking mine. If I can learn to speak her love language, will that make all the difference?
As for your point musclegal, I don't think my W had an A during her first M, and I believe I was her first serious R after her first M ended. We met a couple years after that, so she didn't exactly hop from one R to another. In fact, I met her after she had just spent six months overseas doing doctoral research, on her own (not to OM's country), so she's not the type that can't be alone.
I'm not sure what's up with her simultaneously suing me for custody, and pursuing me to date me. What a bizzare thing. It doesn't make sense, even as a form of manipulation. My gut tells me she sincerely doesn't want to lose me. Does that mean she'll do what it takes for a successful reconciliation? I don't know, and I'm skeptical. She didn't ever say I wasn't a good enough Dad to have joint custody, she said she thinks the kids would do better living primarily in a single household. From what I can tell, she wants to test the waters to see if that single household could be one we all live in. Those are very treacherous waters right now though, so she's treading very lightly. She is carefully showing me a little vulnerability here and there. She invited me to go to a charity benefit in a few weeks, not necessarily with her, as she already has plans to go with a (female) friend, but she said if I did decide to go, she'd appreciate it if I didn't bring a date. The way she said it made me feel good, but I didn't show her that.
Thanks for your concern and advice. I do take all the warnings seriously.
Interesting night last night. I did agree to go out with my W, because I was curious, and I wanted to find out how it made me feel.
We met at a restaurant before going to see Iron Man 2. We sat across from each other, and it was weird. W said she feels nervous, kind of like a first date. We used to hang out at this restaurant a lot in our dating years, along with another next door. She came right from work, so she wasn’t made up or anything, definitely not going out of her way to impress or “seduce” me. I have to admit, I noticed that, and it bugged me a bit.
We talked about work, and just chit chatted. Didn’t really talk about the kids much, which was interesting, since that’s all we used to talk about. I asked "So how do you feel about this?" She said "Surprised. Cautious. Hopeful. How about you?" I said "Yeah, I'm surprised too. I'm cautious, but I hate it." She said "What do you mean?" I said "Being cautious sucks." She smiled and straight out asked me “So are you seeing anyone?” I smiled back and said “You really want to know that, don’t you?” She acted coy and said “Yes, I do.” I acted mysterious and said “I have a very active social life.” She said “Yes, but is there anyone special?”, I hesitated, then answered “I wouldn’t be here if there was.” By then we were leaving the restaurant for the theater. She asked “You’re not comfortable with me asking about it?” I said “Hmmm… I don’t think I would have wanted to answer questions like that back in July of 1996.” She looked puzzled, and I said “When we started dating the last time.” She laughed and said “Oh yeah.”
We went up and watched the movie, it was pretty good, but I thought it was too much of a repeat of the first Iron Man, with the whole “Who can copy Tony’s suit” plot. Afterwards we took a walk, and talked about us some. I said “So what’s up with you suing me and wanting to date me? Doesn’t make sense.” She said “I told you why I sued you, and the dating thing totally surprised me. I wasn’t expecting it. I was surprised how I felt about you when I saw you the last few times.” I said “What changed?” She said “You’re different.” I looked puzzled, and she said again “You’re just different, and I like it.” Then she asked “How about you? What do you think?” I said “I’m not sure.” She said “You seemed to like it when I kissed you. You kissed me back.” I said “I was curious.”
We walked a bit more, then I stopped and kissed her. We made out for a bit, then kept walking. Felt very weird. It really really does feel like someone new. Walls are always up with someone new, but in this case, the walls are there for a different reason. I feel a bit lost, but that’s ok. Walls are holding, and I am in no way going backward, which is incredible for me to realize. I finally get what she means when she says I’m different. I really am. I’m now someone she looks at eye to eye, and she doesn’t see pain in my face, pain she caused.
We did finally talk about the custody thing, in her car, as she drove me over to my car. She said “Do we just want to push it out for now?” I said “How about three months?” She shook her head and said “Too long.” I could see pain in her face. She is not happy with the way things are. She’s portraying it as for the kids, but I know it’s for her too. I’m trying not to react, and put myself in her shoes. I just sat in silence, then she said “We don’t need to go to court. Just make me an offer, we can discuss it, and if we can come to an agreement, we can avoid the whole court thing.” In my head I’m thinking there is no way I’m voluntarily giving up my custody, so I’m struggling as to what to say. She said “We can push this out for now, if I you’ll agree to let me see the kids a little during your time.” I didn’t feel manipulated, she misses the kids, I get it. I miss them too. She said “If by some miracle we can find our way back to each other, it’s not going to happen quick. It’s going to take 6 or 8 months, or longer.” I strongly nodded in response. She continued “In the meantime, if we can just arrange a schedule that works better, we can avoid court. I was surprised how great it was having the kids for the whole <Mother's Day> weekend. Realize, I haven’t been with the kids for a whole weekend in a year and a half, except for the couple times we went away.” I sympathized and said “I understand, I like it better when I get them Saturday morning so we can have the whole weekend. I get it, I do.”
I said “So we have two tracks going on here between us.” She slowly nodded. I said “Well, ok, we’ll talk.” We said goodbye and that was it.
In 15,000 posts here, I've noticed that there is NOTHING as powerful as these two things:
1) The left-behind spouse suddenly DATING (or giving the appearance of dating, or being willing to date);
2) Legal fear.
WORDS TO THE WISE:
It is best NOT to draw any serious conclusions, nor make any potential life-altering DECISIONS, based on a wayward spouse's demeanor toward you while they are under the duress of either -- or BOTH -- of these two things.
Puppy
In 15,000 posts here, I've noticed that there is NOTHING as powerful as these two things:
1) The left-behind spouse suddenly DATING (or giving the appearance of dating, or being willing to date);
2) Legal fear.
WORDS TO THE WISE:
It is best NOT to draw any serious conclusions, nor make any potential life-altering DECISIONS, based on a wayward spouse's demeanor toward you while they are under the duress of either -- or BOTH -- of these two things.
Puppy
And both of those things are scary to implement by the LBS. Detach, listen to those who have gone before you and open your mind.
Unfortunely the first one didn't work for me and I am entering the the legal process now. I will not settle for anything less than 50%.
My efforts were not enough to change WAS's mind, but I am a better person now.
Future, if you dont mind me asking... how far did your dating go with the other girl? I think you mentioned not long ago that you were dating someone? Did your wife find out about it?
In 15,000 posts here, I've noticed that there is NOTHING as powerful as these two things:
1) The left-behind spouse suddenly DATING (or giving the appearance of dating, or being willing to date);
2) Legal fear.
WORDS TO THE WISE:
It is best NOT to draw any serious conclusions, nor make any potential life-altering DECISIONS, based on a wayward spouse's demeanor toward you while they are under the duress of either -- or BOTH -- of these two things.
I agree, which is why I need to curb those fears in order to know what's really going on, if I care. She was obviously very motivated to determine my dating situation. I tried to ride a line between bleeding off some of her fear, but still leaving enough mystery and question to not take it off the table entirely.
As for the legal stuff, I'm still pondering what to do there. I will not give up my custody. Period. If I maintain that hard line, I don't know if it leaves any path other than through court. The kids have lived for 16 months with our current arrangement. They are adjusted, pretty happy, and doing well in school. I can't imagine a court will roll the dice and change that, so maybe I should force her hand. Last night she did seem like she just wanted me to throw her a bone to give her an excuse to put off the court date and save face.
I don't in any way feel like I thought I would when faced with this situation. I'm pretty happy in my life, and reconciling would mean a lot of changes. Our M is deeply wounded, and even if we can manage to heal it, the scar will be permanent.
She was obviously very motivated to determine my dating situation. I tried to ride a line between bleeding off some of her fear, but still leaving enough mystery and question to not take it off the table entirely.
Why do you feel the need to bleed ANY of it off?
Are you sure you're not trying to "rescue" here?
Puppy
Future, if you dont mind me asking... how far did your dating go with the other girl? I think you mentioned not long ago that you were dating someone? Did your wife find out about it?
I don't mind at all. I've dated a few women over the last few months, none of them seriously. Just going out to have fun. My W knows nothing about them, because I never talk about it to her or anyone in her circle. She could detect a sea change in my behavior around her, and that perked her ears up as to what I was doing. I think little things caught her attention over the last few months, like:
* Me asking her to keep the kids at her place one Saturday night
* Me texting her at 1am on a night I didn't have the kids, telling her the kids' backpacks were on the front porch for her to pick up, because I wouldn't be home in the morning
* The kids telling her about new people they were meeting while they were with me, including women (I've never exposed the kids to anyone I was dating, just friends)
* Me standing up to her, allowing her to get angry, and then NOT trying to smooth things over
* Me generally seeming happy and just fine with my life, even though I was not talking to her at all
If you're familiar with my sitch, you might remember her getting jealous over the mother of the teenage girl I am hiring to watch the kids this summer. She is a friend of mine, but we aren't dating. I have never mentioned her in any way to my W, but my W has casually mentioned her name in conversations several times recently, watching for a reaction from me. Funny stuff, seeing her not-so-subtle attempts at digging for info.
Why do you feel the need to bleed ANY of it off?
Are you sure you're not trying to "rescue" here?
So I can see if anything is underneath.
Rescue? Absolutely not. It might sound mean, but watching her squirm is giving me no end of pleasure.
So, nothing physical between you and the people you have dated?
Why do you feel the need to bleed ANY of it off?
Are you sure you're not trying to "rescue" here?
So I can see if anything is underneath.
Rescue? Absolutely not. It might sound mean, but watching her squirm is giving me no end of pleasure.
Fair enough -- thanks.
Puppy
So, nothing physical between you and the people you have dated?
Nope.
In 15,000 posts here, I've noticed that there is NOTHING as powerful as these two things:
1) The left-behind spouse suddenly DATING (or giving the appearance of dating, or being willing to date);
2) Legal fear.
WORDS TO THE WISE:
It is best NOT to draw any serious conclusions, nor make any potential life-altering DECISIONS, based on a wayward spouse's demeanor toward you while they are under the duress of either -- or BOTH -- of these two things.
Puppy
Puppy, from what I know about your sitch, wasn't it when you decided to start dating that your W finally turned around, in a significant way?
Future, are you on the alt?
Given that I don't know what the alt is, I'd say probably not.
Face Book
Unfortunately I can't risk losing my anonymity. My W's career could be seriously damaged, and regardless of whether we reconcile or divorce, that wouldn't be good.
Puppy, from what I know about your sitch, wasn't it when you decided to start dating that your W finally turned around, in a significant way?
Yes, definitely.
Puppy
I've been listening to this song lately, seemed so perfect to have here on this message board.
The song starts with the WAW dropping the bomb on the LBH,
then the LBH finally let's go,
and then the roles reverse.
Great song.
"Things Change" by Dwight Yoakam
She said "Baby things change"
I said "But I feel the same"
She said "Well let me explain"
"Baby how things can change"
I said "But that doesn't show"
"How a love that could grow "
"Would become so estranged"
She said "Well baby, things change"
She said "Now baby, don't try"
"To figure this out"
"Or ask questions 'bout why"
"Forever's a promise"
"No love can survive"
"And trust with hearts"
"Just don't apply"
She said "Cause baby, things change"
So baby I quit tryin'
To figure things out
About all your heart's lyin'
Forever's a promise
We couldn't survive
Hey, I may be slow
But I ain't blind
She said "I still love you so"
I said "I don't care to know"
She said "You once cried my name"
I said "Well baby, things change"
"And let's don't go placing no blame"
"Cause you know things can change"
She said "You once cried my name"
I said "Well baby, things change"
"Let's don't go placing no blame"
"Cause you know things can change"
Future, are you on the alt?
Is there a group, or is it just everyone friending each other?
There is a DB group there. You can sign up with your DB name that you use here so that you can keep your identity secret if you want.
Do you have to make a new FB profile for that or is there a way of using your current one and changing your name etc?
What's the name of the group?
Just search for divorce busters
I would make a new account with a different email. I am the guy with a violin in his hands.
I'm the bald guy with half a head.
I'm pretty easy to find too - just look for Lees......
Future,
I got the e-mail from my XH yesterday asking for another chance. I was pretty sure it would happen sooner or later. Here's how I replied. "I've been thinking about how to reply to your question. I don't know what the future will hold and think that people can change and evolve over time. But right now I want to be with someone who can take care of me and who is in a place within himself that feels safe to me. Right now, I couldn't trust you to be that person and think it would be a long time before those feelings might change."
Our divorce is final, so this is easier--but Future, don't jump back into something. If over time, she shows consistent behavior that is focused on YOU, then that's another story. But this custody thing shows that she is still very erratic inside and that could be a very bad ride for you. You would end up right back where you started, I fear.
Great advice, MG. When in doubt, Future, (or simply when caught off-guard), some sort of this "Gee, I'm just not sure anymore" response is always good.
Puppy
Hi musclegal-
Finally getting a chance to post. Work has been nuts!
I think your response to your H was excellent. When I hear you say your D is final, part of me is jealous. I really should have just gotten it done last year when my W was motivated to do so. I'd be happier now, and even if I wanted to reconcile, I think it would be easier with a settled D agreement, rather than this legal limbo we live in. Now I feel like if I push the D, then I'm the bad guy.
I'm trying not to jump into anything, but W and I did spend quite a bit of time together over the weekend. She shared her time with the kids with me, and I shared my time with her. I did it just to see what it felt like. It felt ok, but I was surprised how well my detachment held up. By the end of the weekend I was feeling a little re-attached, and also like I was being reckless and foolish.
As time has gone by, my W has dropped her resentment, anger, and much of her distance. She does seem like she has done a lot of self reflection and worked on herself, and she seems to have genuine love and affection for me. I have gone from co-dependent, needy, and wounded, to stronger, healthier, and better than I've ever been. I do have protective walls up toward my W to keep myself safe. We might have the ingredients for a reconciliation, but... her A sits as a giant mountain between us. It has cut an enormous gaping wound into our M, a wound that very well might be fatal. How could we ever get past it? Can she ever forget the fantasy of her A with OM? Can I ever believe she is committed to me and our M? It seems impossible, and so here we are.
Puppy, I know this might poke at old wounds, and for that I'm sorry, but how did you do it? How did you get past the reality that your W went from a SSM with you, to a torrid A with another man? How did your ego handle that? How much of your reconciliation was dependent on your own strength vs. needing something from her? How did you return to trusting her? Do you trust her feelings for you?
This sucks.
You can rebuild trust Future, but it takes time. Someone in my divorce group said it takes 7 years to fully rebuild after an affair. I guess she read that in a book. Those 7 years do not have to be filled with hurt and resentment though. It is up to you to chose to forgive.
Puppy, I know this might poke at old wounds, and for that I'm sorry, but how did you do it? How did you get past the reality that your W went from a SSM with you, to a torrid A with another man? How did your ego handle that? How much of your reconciliation was dependent on your own strength vs. needing something from her? How did you return to trusting her? Do you trust her feelings for you?
This sucks.
First of all, no need to apologize, Future -- it's why I'm here (to share my own experiences, good and bad, in the hopes of helping others).
My first, gut answer is "you don't." You DON'T fully get past it -- ever -- I don't think. It remains not a wound, but now a SCAR, and like bodily scars, it can be simultaneously a reminder of a wound, the reckless behavior (by both of us) that caused it, and also a symbol of healed flesh.
Secondly, I would say that our reconciliation was dependent almost ENTIRELY on me, at least at first. After my wife's affair, she felt foolish, guilty, blamed and shamed, and she was a mess. She didn't really have much to give me, and told me so. The physical affection helped, but then also was THE biggest "trigger" for me of what she had done, so it was ALL tough. Eventually, she started giving more, or at least TRYING to, but she's still a fairly self-centered person, emotionally, and I pretty much have to self-soothe in that department.
As for trust, that only came with transparency. I STILL check the cellphone records from time to time, and I still get a knot in my stomach if there's a text(s) on her phone to a male and the contents are deleted. Every tunnel I've taken the time to check out more fully, however, has been cheeseless, infidelity-wise, and so -- over time -- I guess trust has slowly built up in that I realize that it's now been three full years without a re-conflagration of the affair, either with OM or with some OM2.
As horrible as affairs are (and I think that unless you've been betrayed, you cannot even really IMAGINE the wound or the pain), I think an affair-following-a-longterm-SSM is its own special kind of Hell. And though I know it isn't what you want to hear, I'm not altogether sure that I have ever figured out how to fully deal with my pain and my wound.
Puppy
Oh PDT, your last paragraph really made me so sad. I'm happy that you are in a better place now. It gives me hope.
how do you find each other on FB?
Hey Future... have you been watching the news about Bill 3890 and Bill 7740?
Bill 3890 will eliminate NY as a fault state AND abolish the legal separation process! In addition, specific guidelines and a set formula (I believe 40%) will be set for spousal support instead of mere criteria and will be awarded to the spouse who makes less money.
Bill 7740 will automatically award the spouse who makes less money full legal fees paid for by the higher earning spouse.
I think the next vote is Monday! I doubt it will pass but ya never know!
First of all, no need to apologize, Future -- it's why I'm here (to share my own experiences, good and bad, in the hopes of helping others).
My first, gut answer is "you don't." You DON'T fully get past it -- ever -- I don't think. It remains not a wound, but now a SCAR, and like bodily scars, it can be simultaneously a reminder of a wound, the reckless behavior (by both of us) that caused it, and also a symbol of healed flesh.
Secondly, I would say that our reconciliation was dependent almost ENTIRELY on me, at least at first. After my wife's affair, she felt foolish, guilty, blamed and shamed, and she was a mess. She didn't really have much to give me, and told me so. The physical affection helped, but then also was THE biggest "trigger" for me of what she had done, so it was ALL tough. Eventually, she started giving more, or at least TRYING to, but she's still a fairly self-centered person, emotionally, and I pretty much have to self-soothe in that department.
As for trust, that only came with transparency. I STILL check the cellphone records from time to time, and I still get a knot in my stomach if there's a text(s) on her phone to a male and the contents are deleted. Every tunnel I've taken the time to check out more fully, however, has been cheeseless, infidelity-wise, and so -- over time -- I guess trust has slowly built up in that I realize that it's now been three full years without a re-conflagration of the affair, either with OM or with some OM2.
As horrible as affairs are (and I think that unless you've been betrayed, you cannot even really IMAGINE the wound or the pain), I think an affair-following-a-longterm-SSM is its own special kind of Hell. And though I know it isn't what you want to hear, I'm not altogether sure that I have ever figured out how to fully deal with my pain and my wound.
Puppy
Thanks Puppy, I appreciate your generosity, and your candor. I've never been so nervous about the response to a post here. Even when I saw you responded, I hesitated to read it.
Your response is almost exactly what I expected, and is what I expect even in the best case. My W is also self centered emotionally, and although I can envision her trying to be a better W, kinder, gentler, less reactive, more giving, and more accommodating of my needs, in the end it will be on ME to heal.
She cannot somehow erase what she's done. I know that and she knows that, so me expecting any kind of continual demonstrations of remorse from her is unrealistic and cheeseless in its own way. I know I will have to recognize that demonstrations of hurt ego from me will only make me look weak and unattractive. If we decide to reconcile, and if she can convince me that she's sincere, that I'm not her Plan B, then I have to take that at face value and try to move forward.
Although my M was not a severe SSM, it definitely fit that description, especially for the last five years. Now I too am in a special kind of Hell, for sure. Perhaps the 7 year number v1olin refers to is true, and eventually our pain and wound will fade into memory, replaced by years of good marriage.
Although I don't know this, I swear my W is on the other side of this same dilemma, wondering if true healing and trust could ever be possible. She sure seems to want something from me.
Last night my W came by to drop something for the kids, and as soon as she came in, I could tell she was off. I asked her how she was, and she said "Depressed". When I asked why, she said "Just one of those days." Her whole demeanor smacked of "Withdrawal from OM", so I reactively threw my walls back up fully, left her with the kids and sat on the other side of the room. Not pouting or anything, just removed myself from the situation. After a bit she looked over at me and kindly said "Just because I'm depressed doesn't mean you have to be." I said "I'm not depressed, I'm fine." She could tell my wall was back up. After being with the kids for a few minutes she abruptly left.
This morning when I dropped my daughter off, she was kind, but sad. I was back to full walls, and I quickly said goodbye to my daughter and went to leave. W stopped me and asked a simple question about the health insurance cards for the kids, something that could have easily been handled in a text message or e-mail. I answered her question, but she looked so much like she wanted something else, so I said "Are you ok?" She said no, and she described various physical ailments she's suffering from, then she said "I wanted you to know that's why I was depressed last night... I'm tired of dealing with all this". She said "And I'm lonely. It's hard coming home to a silent house after a long day of work." I smiled and said "Well, you've got a whole gang of maniacs coming over today (our kids)." She smiled back and said "So how are you?" She keeps asking me this, every time I see her! What does she want from me?! I said I was fine, but that I'm a little stressed about work and the house. I talked about my work, and she stood there looking at me, riveted by my words the way a woman does when she's trying to stroke your ego. I looked at her, and into her eyes. If she's faking, she's damn good at it. She looked at me with so much love and hurt. I hestitated, then I reached out and gave her a hug. She grabbed me and said softly "Thanks." Then I left.
What am I supposed to do with all this? We have a court date in two weeks. She's suing me to take the kids from me. What the hell is going on?
Future, I've been following your sitch. I'm sorry for what you are going through. For what it's worth I wanted to let you know that I think you're doing a good job and to give you my support.
Stay strong. I know your upcoming court date is on your mind and I can certainly understand why. Don't let a court date take you off your path. It's only a step in the process. I think you and your W have a chance. Keep doing what you're doing.
Forgiveness does not mean reconciliation. It could mean the ability to parent amicably together, or a possible friendship in the future. Trust is different to forgiveness ... it certainly takes time and work on the part of one who committed the offense (the affair in this case). Your WAW does not seem to be the type who would want to put in the effort ... perhaps, at first, but I think it may peter out, but that's just my impression of her, through you.
Thinking of ya!
What am I supposed to do with all this? We have a court date in two weeks. She's suing me to take the kids from me. What the hell is going on?
She's conflicted. This is good.
Stay cool. Do NOT go all "melty man" on her!
Puppy
try to compartmentalize to get through the court date. be an observer as much as you can. watch her and see what she says and does. if she says nasty things about you in court, future, that's going to be tough. is she trying to put the last nail in the coffin or is she trying to see if there is still any life in there? agree with puppy...she is very conflicted. just stay your course. a divorce doesn't mean its over forever, but might be a necessary part of the process...
Future, I've been following your sitch. I'm sorry for what you are going through. For what it's worth I wanted to let you know that I think you're doing a good job and to give you my support.
Stay strong. I know your upcoming court date is on your mind and I can certainly understand why. Don't let a court date take you off your path. It's only a step in the process. I think you and your W have a chance. Keep doing what you're doing.
Thanks mza8-
Welcome to my thread. Sometimes I feel like I'm on "The Truman Show". I have followed your thread too. I think you are getting good advice from the vets here.
I guess I've never quite given up that we have a chance to save our M, but it sure has been a roller coaster. I'm managing to stay pretty detached. I am going to stay on my path, and I will not back down regarding the custody. If she wants to drag it into court, so be it. She won't win.
Forgiveness does not mean reconciliation. It could mean the ability to parent amicably together, or a possible friendship in the future. Trust is different to forgiveness ... it certainly takes time and work on the part of one who committed the offense (the affair in this case). Your WAW does not seem to be the type who would want to put in the effort ... perhaps, at first, but I think it may peter out, but that's just my impression of her, through you.
Thinking of ya!
Thanks for hangin' in here BeingMe.
I am similarly skeptical about her ability to put in the effort. I have to admit though, she has consistently been kind to me, for a year now. Other than suing me of course! LOL! This lawsuit thing is so weird, I just don't get it. She sees how I am with the kids, I can't believe she really wants to take them from me. She sent me a proposed schedule where I would get the kids two evenings per week, and every other weekend. Sorry, not gonna happen. She also said she'd be agreeable to me having them more in the summers, provided I don't put them in the care of a babysitter, or stepmom. Wow!
During our recent time together, she has slid in casual questions about whether I've thought about moving to a new house, and also about a possible trip to Disney World. I feel like I'm involved in some secret interview process or something.
I keep thinking back to what she said back in January during our contentious separation discussion. She said, in reference to her A, "You'll always hold it over me!" Then a couple weeks ago during our talk she said "I've realized I'm not afraid of you any more." I was surprised, and I asked her why she was afraid of me and she said "I don't know", but I know, she was afraid of retribution because of her A. She said she was shocked that I didn't react to her lawsuit with some sort of counter attack. She said it made her believe she could be with me again. That is exactly counter to what is often the case, that only when faced with a strong legal threat do they express hollow desire for reconciliation.
Appears to me she has a secret deep seated guilt over what she did. She's looking for sort of indication from me that I can forgive her and ease that guilt. She wants us to be "right" with each other, but she stubbornly won't give me what I need, a clear declaration of remorse. I keep going back and forth as to whether I should require that declaration up front, or trust that it will come as she re-attaches to me, and feels safe with me.
I appreciate that you realize your impression of her is through me. I write a lot of words here, but it's not the same as seeing her and talking with her. I wonder what you all would think if you could be a fly on the wall and see and hear for yourself. Would you think "Wow, she is a master manipulator", or would you think "She is being open and honest with Future"?
She's conflicted. This is good.
Stay cool. Do NOT go all "melty man" on her!
Puppy
I assume by "melty man" you mean saying things like "I've missed you", "it's so wonderful to hold you again", "I love you so much", "don't worry, we can work all this out", etc, etc?
Last year I was always battling that tendancy, but now it's just not there. I don't have to hold it back. She's going to have to earn it.
try to compartmentalize to get through the court date. be an observer as much as you can. watch her and see what she says and does. if she says nasty things about you in court, future, that's going to be tough. is she trying to put the last nail in the coffin or is she trying to see if there is still any life in there? agree with puppy...she is very conflicted. just stay your course. a divorce doesn't mean its over forever, but might be a necessary part of the process...
I think I'm in a good place to do exactly what you say. I won't be reactive, and I have no idea what she's going to say. Sure doesn't seem to me she's putting nails in the coffin. In fact, I feel like she has the pry bar, and is pulling out the nails she's already put in!
I agree that separation or divorce very well might necessary at this point. I can't live in this legal limbo forever.
Met W out tonight to discuss the custody issue.
Holy sh*t. What a night.
She sent me an e-mail earlier this week about liking what we were doing, but wanting more time with just the two of us. I sent her a reply a few days later saying I had an idea or two on how we could spend more one on one time together. When I saw her tonight she immediately asked about it, but I said "No point in talking about that until we get this custody thing resolved."
Before I brought up the custody thing, I talked a bit about how I've observed married people lately, and how I hate seeing bad marriages. I described something I saw recently and she said "I am so sorry for being like that with you." I said "I'm sorry for not appreciating you." I told her "I will not be in a marriage like that again. I'd rather be alone." She agreed.
Then we talked about the custody. I stood my ground and said I wouldn't give up my custody until a court ordered me to. She said "Offer me something." I said we could switch to full alternating weekends (right now it's only Saturday we alternate). She easily gave in. We were flirting like crazy.
She said "Have you thought about what you'll need from me to make this work between us?" I nodded my head. She said "I know. We have a lot of talking to do. I want to tell you one thing now, and I don't want you to respond." I said "Okay." She said "If we end up in court, or if we end up together, I won't be made out to be the villain." I looked a bit puzzled, and she said "I won't be cast as the villain because of the decisions I made while we were separated. Is that possible for you?" I said "We don't need to talk about it now, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was possible." She looked relieved.
Then she said "So what are your ideas?" I said "Let's take boxing lessons together." She laughed and said "Awesome! We can beat the crap out of each other." I smiled and said "That's exactly what I thought. I'll get the schedule and set it up."
Then I said "Now you want to go have some fun?" She said "Yeah!" I brought her to a club to see an awesome funk band. We had a few drinks, danced, and made out all night. She looked smokin'. Truly one of the best times we've ever had together. There was a significant sexual vibe going, but we didn't go there, not yet. There was enough cautious realism between to know not to do that. I didn't in any way feel I was being manipulated. She really was just right. She stood up for herself, but she gave me what I wanted too, and was vulnerable. I think she feels safe with me. Unbelievable.
On the drive back to her car, she said "My lawyer told me I can just withdraw my petition, and that'll be that. I'll talk to him." I said "Let me know how that goes, and if you need me to do anything." When we got to her car we made out for a while, then she got out and drove away.
What a bizarre night. It was all very cool. I feel good. I think we might just make it.
Met W out tonight to discuss the custody issue.
Holy sh*t. What a night.
She sent me an e-mail earlier this week about liking what we were doing, but wanting more time with just the two of us. I sent her a reply a few days later saying I had an idea or two on how we could spend more one on one time together. When I saw her tonight she immediately asked about it, but I said "No point in talking about that until we get this custody thing resolved."
Before I brought up the custody thing, I talked a bit about how I've observed married people lately, and how I hate seeing bad marriages. I described something I saw recently and she said "I am so sorry for being like that with you." I said "I'm sorry for not appreciating you." I told her "I will not be in a marriage like that again. I'd rather be alone." She agreed.
Then we talked about the custody. I stood my ground and said I wouldn't give up my custody until a court ordered me to. She said "Offer me something." I said we could switch to full alternating weekends (right now it's only Saturday we alternate). She easily gave in. We were flirting like crazy.
She said "Have you thought about what you'll need from me to make this work between us?" I nodded my head. She said "I know. We have a lot of talking to do. I want to tell you one thing now, and I don't want you to respond." I said "Okay." She said "If we end up in court, or if we end up together, I won't be made out to be the villain." I looked a bit puzzled, and she said "I won't be cast as the villain because of the decisions I made while we were separated. Is that possible for you?" I said "We don't need to talk about it now, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was possible." She looked relieved.
Then she said "So what are your ideas?" I said "Let's take boxing lessons together." She laughed and said "Awesome! We can beat the crap out of each other." I smiled and said "That's exactly what I thought. I'll get the schedule and set it up."
Then I said "Now you want to go have some fun?" She said "Yeah!" I brought her to a club to see an awesome funk band. We had a few drinks, danced, and made out all night. She looked smokin'. Truly one of the best times we've ever had together. There was a significant sexual vibe going, but we didn't go there, not yet. There was enough cautious realism between to know not to do that. I didn't in any way feel I was being manipulated. She really was just right. She stood up for herself, but she gave me what I wanted too, and was vulnerable. I think she feels safe with me. Unbelievable.
On the drive back to her car, she said "My lawyer told me I can just withdraw my petition, and that'll be that. I'll talk to him." I said "Let me know how that goes, and if you need me to do anything." When we got to her car we made out for a while, then she got out and drove away.
What a bizarre night. It was all very cool. I feel good. I think we might just make it.
And THAT folks . . . is how it's
done.Stone-cold PERFECT, Future.
A+. Puppy
Future,
It is IMPERATIVE that you MAINTAIN this same stance with your wife in the days and weeks ahead. I PREDICT THAT SHE IS GOING TO TRY TO TEST YOU in this (legal) area, possibly even using sex as a tack, and you will need to PASS THE TEST.
Don't forget the THINGS YOU DID RIGHT that got you to this point. You can LOSE IT ALL if you go all melty-man now.
Remember, George, this is no time to go all wobbly."
-- Margaret Thatcher
She said "Have you thought about what you'll need from me to make this work between us?" I nodded my head. She said "I know. We have a lot of talking to do. I want to tell you one thing now, and I don't want you to respond." I said "Okay." She said "If we end up in court, or if we end up together, I won't be made out to be the villain." I looked a bit puzzled, and she said "I won't be cast as the villain because of the decisions I made while we were separated. Is that possible for you?" I said "We don't need to talk about it now, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was possible." She looked relieved.
This was a huge, HUGE sub-moment in your exchange, Future. Had you not handled this correctly, in EITHER direction (either leading her to believe that you were going to "lord her affair over her," or by going all unilateral-disarmament and melty-man on her), you would have had a big setback.
You are displaying cautious forgiveness, and giving her HOPE. One of the potential pitfalls of the "tough stance" approach is that, if you don't do it correctly, you can start to portray not strength, but HOPELESSNESS. The formerly-wayward spouse needs to feel like there is HOPE for them if they return to the marriage, that their affair won't be forever lorded over them, and yet simultaneously that you still mean business and are LEADING.
It's a delicate dance to pull off, but you're doing great here.
Just a hunch, but do you have people praying for you right now??
Puppy
Wow Future! This is going to be interesting watch unfold! I do think that 2 people may be able to get back together as two NEW people after a separation and a time of growth. You've done your growing. Now let's see if she's done hers! I'll keep my fingers crossed!
Puppy was generous enough to split off my post into it's own thread, here:
How to display Strength AND Loving I put a more detailed description of the events of my night there.
Future,
It is IMPERATIVE that you MAINTAIN this same stance with your wife in the days and weeks ahead. I PREDICT THAT SHE IS GOING TO TRY TO TEST YOU in this (legal) area, possibly even using sex as a tack, and you will need to PASS THE TEST.
Don't forget the THINGS YOU DID RIGHT that got you to this point. You can LOSE IT ALL if you go all melty-man now.
Thanks Puppy. I will. It's so much easier now that I actually have detached. I can't imagine how someone could really do this right while they're still detached. I had some successes last year, but I kept backsliding because I wasn't truly detached yet.
I will be on the lookout for behavior from her that smells like a test. I'll be quick to post here if I feel unsure!
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She said "Have you thought about what you'll need from me to make this work between us?" I nodded my head. She said "I know. We have a lot of talking to do. I want to tell you one thing now, and I don't want you to respond." I said "Okay." She said "If we end up in court, or if we end up together, I won't be made out to be the villain." I looked a bit puzzled, and she said "I won't be cast as the villain because of the decisions I made while we were separated. Is that possible for you?" I said "We don't need to talk about it now, but I wouldn't be here if I didn't think it was possible." She looked relieved.
This was a huge, HUGE sub-moment in your exchange, Future. Had you not handled this correctly, in EITHER direction (either leading her to believe that you were going to "lord her affair over her," or by going all unilateral-disarmament and melty-man on her), you would have had a big setback.
You are displaying cautious forgiveness, and giving her HOPE. One of the potential pitfalls of the "tough stance" approach is that, if you don't do it correctly, you can start to portray not strength, but HOPELESSNESS. The formerly-wayward spouse needs to feel like there is HOPE for them if they return to the marriage, that their affair won't be forever lorded over them, and yet simultaneously that you still mean business and are LEADING.
It's a delicate dance to pull off, but you're doing great here.
Just a hunch, but do you have people praying for you right now??
Puppy
It was huge, and it's no coincidence it's the one big thing she made a point to bring up. Walking the line isn't too hard for me right now because I myself am ON the line. As you know full well, I've got powerful emotions about all this, and I'll have to resist unleashing them on her, simply because it won't do any good, and would be contrary to a true desire to reconcile. I have gotten an incredible perspective from watching other situations unfold here over the past year and a half. Regardless of what happens, I hope other people will gain perspective from reading my sitch in the future.
I do wonder how she will react when I tell her what I will need from her. I can't let this go too far before we have that talk.
Future, I am so very proud of you!
You have developed a great instict on how to handle your W!
Wow Future! This is going to be interesting watch unfold! I do think that 2 people may be able to get back together as two NEW people after a separation and a time of growth. You've done your growing. Now let's see if she's done hers! I'll keep my fingers crossed!
Thanks musclegal. I am encouraged by what I've seen from her so far. How she reacts when I tell what I need will tell me a lot.
Future, just wanted to say that I am happy for you. It's definitely a step in the right direction. Keep it up.
Yes, you are doing awesomely.
But, as has been stated already, tread carefully.
Hey Future, it sure does sound encouraging! Good luck!
Got a message from my W. She told her atty to DELAY the custody hearing, not drop it. Interesting. She spent last evening in the company of her "negative sounding board" friend, so she may have had some pessimism impressed upon her.
Is this a test? Should I take some sort of strong stance and say "Look, I'm not going to live with this hanging over me. If you want a court to decide this, let's just go get it decided." Or, do I go with the flow for a while?
It sounds to me (and from your two prior, lengthy posts as well) like you're BOTH testing EACH OTHER.
I don't see a problem with a "delay" per se; the problem is, that I'd really like to see your wife NOT get what she wants here, to see if she'd still relate affectionately and respectfully towards you.
If it were me, I would tell her that you really don't see a delay as ANY different from her keeping up her request for custody. I mean, the "default" position right now is her action against you, so as long as she DOESN'T withdraw that, I think you should consider it pretty much the same thing.
Puppy
Is this a test? Should I take some sort of strong stance and say "Look, I'm not going to live with this hanging over me. If you want a court to decide this, let's just go get it decided." Or, do I go with the flow for a while?
She wants to know that what she is experiencing is real. It's a safety net for her. Give her a little time and space. Be calm, strong and cool enough not to let it bother you.
"I can understand why you would do that."
Then let her be the next one to make contact.
Got a message from my W. She told her atty to DELAY the custody hearing, not drop it. Interesting. She spent last evening in the company of her "negative sounding board" friend, so she may have had some pessimism impressed upon her.
Maybe reply with a cryptic "Interesting. This surprises me, to be honest."
And then pull WAY back for 2-3 days emotionally.
I think she's fired a shot across your bow, at a time when I personally don't think she has ANY business playing "Offense."
Puppy
I agree with Puppy and Coach.
And, just to throw in my 2 cents. Her attny very well might have advised her to delay. Attny's know the very low rate of reconciliation that sticks and he/she very well might have advised your W to proceed with caution. Not to mention if things don't work out she will have to start proceedings all over again (costly).
I don't see a problem with a "delay" per se; the problem is, that I'd really like to see your wife NOT get what she wants here, to see if she'd still relate affectionately and respectfully towards you.
She wants to know that what she is experiencing is real. It's a safety net for her. Give her a little time and space. Be calm, strong and cool enough not to let it bother you.
Well, I did take an absolute stand against her Saturday night, I made it clear I wasn't giving her what she wanted, and the result was very positive. She was very respectful and affectionate all night.
I think she's recoiled back a little from everything, and truthfully, so have I. It was an intense night. A little voice in my head is saying "What are you doing? Do you really want to do this? Remember how bad your M was. Do you want to go back to that? Do you want to risk opening the wounds her A caused?"
She said the thing I did that really blew her away was NOT reacting and counter-attacking when she brought the suit in the first place, and I believe her. I need to sit tight for now.
And, just to throw in my 2 cents. Her attny very well might have advised her to delay. Attny's know the very low rate of reconciliation that sticks and he/she very well might have advised your W to proceed with caution. Not to mention if things don't work out she will have to start proceedings all over again (costly).
You know, that occurred to me too. I can totally see that. I called my atty and told him I agree to a delay. I'll see what my W says about it when we talk again.
Most reconciliations here won't stick?
Most reconciliations in general don't stick. I bet those that happen due to good solid DBing have a MUCH better chance of sticking.
Think about it, 50% of all marriages fail. Those that are in serious trouble, like all of those represented here, are going to have a much worse success rate than that.
This is not only about saving one's marriage, but saving yourself. There are many saved marriages here, but I think there are more divorces. But, I think most people end up being healthier, and will hopefully move onto more successful relationships. That's what I have observed. Although, many people leave the board, and you never know what happened, so that's a wild card.
Yeah, I think you should sit tight, and see where the wind blows, Future.
I like the suggested cryptic reply, "interesting, honestly this isn't what I expected." But you know where you are and maybe you both need a break after Saturday.
The question will be Future whether you have both grown and changed significantly, and could continue to grow together, or whether you would end up slipping backwards. Its hard not to slip backwards into familiar patterns with a familiar person...but not impossible.
I told her I spoke to my atty and it's all set. I'll let this slide for now. I know I won't back down on it. If she wants to keep the option open for a while longer, that's fine.
Joined W and kids for a hike and ice cream last night. She had the kids and invited me. We had a fun time. I see I'm going to have to decide what things I take a stand on. When I met up with them, I noticed my son and older daughter we both wearing caps from OM's country. Was this a test? Just her ignorance over what that means to me? I don't know right now.
After we had ice cream and I was driving them back, my W had her cell phone out and was texting. I still have some residual negative association with that since a couple years ago she was texting OM right in front of us all, although I didn't know it at the time. I tried to ignore it, but I was slightly annoyed. I heard a couple texts come in on my cell phone while we were driving, and it occurred to me to pull it out to look at it, as if to say "How do you like it?", but I thought I'd take the high road and ignore my phone while we were together.
When we got to her car and they all unloaded and drove away I checked my phone and guess what I saw. Texts from her. It was me she was texting while she was sitting next to me. She first sent me a text suggesting that we start going to lunch together every Monday, as an effort to get some one-on-one time together. She was texting right next to me so as to covertly communicate without the kids hearing. We are being VERY careful to not let the kids see what's going on between us. She was hoping I'd look at my phone in the car, and give her a positive reaction, but when I didn't, she texted again and again, teasing me about my refusal to look at my phone while I was with her. I have to admit, she took my memory of her previous behavior, and turned it completely around. I was touched when I saw the texts were from her.
I texted her back, called her a sneak, and said the reason I wasn't looking at my phone was because I'm a gentleman! I said I liked the idea of having lunch together weekly, and suggested we take turns picking a place to go.
Interestingly, on our drive back she randomly brought up the neighborhoods she's looked at as possible places to move to. I said I've always liked those neighborhoods (and I have). More of the secret interview stuff.
Wow, good thing you didn't fall into THAT trap, huh!!!
Puppy
Had to drop off a couple things for the kids at W's house tonight. Kids had just gone to bed and she invited me in. She was putting out a very warm vibe. We sat on her sofa watching TV, and she laid her head on my lap. She said "How is it we f*cked up our M so bad, yet this feels so good and right?" I said "I don't know, but not for lack of thinking about it." She nodded, and she was right. It is feeling very good. We ended up talking and making out for two hours. Again we were teasing each other about witholding sex. We know it's too soon.
Something is "fixed" between us. There is a comfort, openness, and honesty between us that is flowing more easily and naturally than every before. We freely talked about subjects that would have been totally loaded guns before. We haven't yet addressed her A yet though. That might not be quite so easy.
While we were together last night, she said "I'm sorry I couldn't accept this from you before." I replied "That's in the past."
Later, I said "I'm sorry I couldn't show you how I feel about you." She replied "That's in the past."
I said "The past is for learning, the future is for enjoying." She said "Wow, that's great."
This is all REALLY GOOD, Future.
Just SLOW AND STEADY, okay? Slow and steady.
And as for dealing with the A, that's why God created good family therapists.
Be blessed,
Puppy
Thanks Puppy. I am trying to go slow and steady, but it's proving a bit difficult. I didn't plan last night at all. I thought I'd just drop the couple things off and just stand inside the door of her kitchen, like I always do. After I rang the bell and caused the dog to bark like crazy, she said "H, you don't need to ring the bell any more, just walk in whenever you want." She was friendly and asked if I wanted to come sit and talk for a while.
Maybe a good thing I have to go out of town all next week. It'll give this a chance to sink in. This trip came up very suddenly, and it is so fortunate. Things like that really give me faith someone out there is watching over me. Puppy, you asked a while back if people are praying for me. I don't really know for sure, but I think so.
I already had plans made for the kids and me on Memorial Day. I mentioned it to W, and said that I'm not ready to re-introduce her into my life yet. She totally understood and said she was going to a party at some other friends house. She is being incredibly cool about everything.
She also told me she got all her cc debt paid off from her buying furniture and stuff for her house (and trips to see OM, although she didn't mention that) after we "split up". Interesting, she always refers to it as we "split up", not "she left". Our M really was a mess, and a big part of me ended up being grateful for the massive kick in the as* this all gave me, so it's hard to be a stickler about little things like that. Instead of giving me secret interview questions, now it's like she's selling me on herself.
You don't know how funny the whole family therapist comment is. She is a marriage and family therapist, with a very successful practice. We had been in MC on and off our entire M, with little positive impact. She says she's done with it, for us. I agreed. We have such bad memories of it, I have no interest in going back. So far she and I are communicating very well. We said "With all we've been through, if we can't find a way to talk this out ourselves, then we'll know." When we hit the big topics, like her A, that'll be the test.
Hey Future, how has it been?
Hi v1olin-
So far so good. Had a cookout at W's house Sunday, then went to see a baseball game with the whole family. Great time. W has shifted so far toward me, I still don't fully trust it, although she's given me no reason not to, so far.
Our son would not let W off the hook when she didn't say something exactly right, and she looked at me and jokingly said "He sure is your son", referring to my tendancy for exactness. I said "You're going to have to live with it" and she replied "I fell in love with you, so something inside me must like that quality." She brought up some past times when she was particularly difficult in our M, and she apologized for them. She teased me about one time I was particularly difficult, something she had previously been holding a BIG grudge about, but now she was light and comical about it. I apologized for it, and explained why I was so difficult. She said "Why didn't you tell me that then?! I would have been so much more understanding about it!" I said "I thought I needed to be Superman, and not let anyone know about my problems." She hugged and kissed me.
At the baseball game, we were sitting in the sun, and it was hot, and our youngest daughter was being a bit of a pain. Five years ago W would have turned into a complete b*tch, but now, we were joking and rolling with the situation. We just have fun now. It looks to me like she is so happy to be a family again.
The flirting between us continues, in person, in e-mail, and texting. I am making it crystal clear to her that she is very special to me, above and beyond the kids. She is very touchy-feely with me, and always moves into me when I make any kind of physical move, completely the opposite of three or four years ago. She is starting to throw out comments about where we should retire, and possibilities of getting a new house. In the past I would have reacted to statements like that as though she was making imminent plans, pointed out how impractical it all was, and shut her down. Now I know it's just her dreaming, and go with the flow. I ask her questions and try to draw out all the facets of her dream.
I'm away on business travel now. Our oldest daughter got very sick last night, and had a high fever. She's had such a bad year health-wise. I had to call W early this morning to arrange for a change of plans so I could transition D6 to her in the morning, rather than bringing D6 to school. My call woke W up, and she was very groggy, but I didn't even get a hint of annoyance. She was warm, and helpful, and changed her plans so I could make my flight. I don't know if I can trust all this yet, but if this is what married life with us can be, sign me up.
If it helps anyone out there, my W literally told me that it was when I really pulled away from her, and she had to face the prospect of life without me, that she really turned around.
And oh yeah, this is a little out there for me to post, but it was something discussed in the SSM forum here a while back, and it resonated with me.
There was discussion about how sometimes a H needs to grab his W forcefully and kiss her like he really means it, like he's "claiming" her. After the baseball game, I went into W's house to drop off a couple things, kids were still in the car. Since we were hidden from the kids' view, W and I made out a little bit, and then I went to leave. Instead I turned around, walked right up to her, grabbed a handful of her hair, pulled back so her head tilted back, she cried out, and I kissed her like I meant it. Afterwards, I said "Ok, that's it, I gotta go" and I left.
The next morning I got a text from her telling me to have a wonderful day, with two xx's at the end. I love these forums!
Wow, it is amazing how fast these things can turn around! I am very happy for you Future!
Go Future!!!!!
Hey Future--how are you doing? Did the trip clarify things? Give you a break? My XH keeps texting me. I think he wants to try again...or to have me rescue him, I don't know which. Was on vacation with a new man this weekend--XH doesn't know about it. But it felt good to be with someone who seems to care about me and want to take care of ME, instead of the other way around. And the new man is kind and insightful to boot. I feel like he fell from the sky, in a way--my sister says he did fall from the sky and its to keep me from any temptation to reconcile with XH! My XH has been so hurtful to me that I can't imagine trying it again. But I worry about the kids. Is this for the kids or for you? Or both? I'm just curious because I'm seeing some parallels with my sitch.
If it helps anyone out there, my W literally told me that it was when I really pulled away from her, and she had to face the prospect of life without me, that she really turned around.
BINGO.Puppy
If it helps anyone out there, my W literally told me that it was when I really pulled away from her, and she had to face the prospect of life without me, that she really turned around.
BINGO.Puppy
Future, did this happen after A with OM was over or during A? I think that my W A with OM is preventing this from happening because she has him as a backup.
Thanks and I'm really happy for you!
Hey Future--how are you doing? Did the trip clarify things? Give you a break? My XH keeps texting me. I think he wants to try again...or to have me rescue him, I don't know which. Was on vacation with a new man this weekend--XH doesn't know about it. But it felt good to be with someone who seems to care about me and want to take care of ME, instead of the other way around. And the new man is kind and insightful to boot. I feel like he fell from the sky, in a way--my sister says he did fall from the sky and its to keep me from any temptation to reconcile with XH! My XH has been so hurtful to me that I can't imagine trying it again. But I worry about the kids. Is this for the kids or for you? Or both? I'm just curious because I'm seeing some parallels with my sitch.
Hi musclegal-
Great that you've been out with someone. Definitely feels good to be liked and appreciated.
Hard to separate my motivations between the kids and me, but ultimately, it has to be for me. This spring I finally proved to myself that I can be a good single Dad, and that the kids would be okay if W and I divorce. I had pretty much thrown in the towel on my M. My W hasn't gone out of her way to hurt me. Her actions did hurt me, no doubt, but I could tell this all had more to do with her than me. Since the beginning of my sitch, my W has maintained a line of kindness back to me. If she had been openly vicious and cruel, it would be much harder for me to consider reconciliation. I also liked that when my W approached me, it wasn't grovelling and begging, but just stating where she was, and what she was willing to offer. My ego wouldn't have minded a little grovelling and begging, but that energy is not good for a R. Just ask all the WAS's how it makes them feel when the LBS does the begging. Not attractive.
One thing I've learned through all this is the power of time. If you don't know how you feel, or if you can't imagine trying again, then say fine, and re-evaluate in a month or two (or six!). If your H is truly serious, he'll wait. Be a great Mom, enjoy yourself, and have as much fun as you can. When my W and I came back together, it was because we missed each other, and it was fun, not painful or serious. We have some serious stuff to talk about, for sure, but I'm spending time with her because I really like her and want to. I see evidence of real growth within her, and I'm willing to stick around to see how real it is.
I'm really happy for you! And I am really proud of how you are handling it all!
GREAT WORK!!!
Future, did this happen after A with OM was over or during A? I think that my W A with OM is preventing this from happening because she has him as a backup.
Thanks and I'm really happy for you!
Thanks Ken62. We'll see how it goes, but I'm getting increasingly optimistic.
It's absolutely true that my W's A provided a significant barrier to her appreciating her feelings for me and our M. Through intel I was getting, I could see she was absolutely obsessed with OM, and had him propped up as a super fantasy. Although it was killing me, I knew I couldn't win against that fantasy, at least not directly. However, I knew it couldn't possibly last.
First, I wanted to consistently show her that we could be fun together. I embraced a light attitude toward life, and GALed extensively to make myself feel good and be more interesting. I did give her some attention, which allowed her to cake eat, but I was willing to accept that for a while, because our M had gotten so negative and stale, I knew she wouldn't choose to return to it. I needed to show her a new possibility.
She stuck tenaciously to her attachment to OM, which was infuriating. I didn't show her that it bothered me though. If I couldn't be a light and fun person around her, I tried to just avoid her. I now think that my allowing her to cake eat prolonged her investment in OM, as she felt she could always have me as a backup. However, I didn't feel I had a choice, I needed to do what I did.
As her A with OM died, she moved toward me, but on her terms, which p*ssed me off. After all I'd been through, I wanted more respect than that, so I rejected her and cut off from her. She had seen how we could be together. I wanted to see if she'd pursue me and give me the respect I deserved. I figured either she'd come back and meet me on better terms, or I'd move on. I had gotten to the point that I was fine either way. She did make the choice to give me much more of what I wanted
So to answer your question, I think I made some progress while my W's A was going on, but it wasn't until it was over, for a while, that she really came around. I do think that my actions during her A put pressure on it, and confused her, and caused her even more turmoil. Did that shorten the A? I don't know.
It did take three to four months of nearly no contact, and taking a few strong stands against her, along with her dying or dead A, before she finally broke down and asked for me back. It's a LONG process, unfortunately.
I'm really happy for you! And I am really proud of how you are handling it all!
GREAT WORK!!!
Thanks CityGirl! I have so much appreciation for you and the others here who offered me their support and advice. My situation isn't yet resolved, but it is feeling pretty good. I'm holding back quite a bit, which is good, and my W is noticing it. She recently asked me "Are you holding back because of how you feel, or our situation?" I thought about it for a while, and decided she was really asking me "Are you holding back because you're not sure how you feel about me, or because I hurt you so badly." I answered "If I understand your question right, it's situational." I was telling her that my feelings for her are real, but I can't jump back in after being so hurt.
What are you doing up so late???? I'm on the west coast, so that's my excuse.
I had too much coffee earlier this evening, lol! I feel like I could run a marathon right now.
Ok, I need to really think about what I'm going to require W to do to continue on this path. I can't go any further without dealing with this.
Here's what I've been pondering. I'd appreciate any feedback:
* Her returning to OM's country, even for her work, is toxic to our R, so if she isn't willing to let that go, I'm out
* Letter of no-contact must be sent to OM, authored by us together
* Transparency plan?
* She should pay back all the money OM gave her. We never got divorced, so he essentially gave US the money, and I won't live with that
* She needs to tell me why she wants to save our M, and explain why I'm not her "plan B"
* STD test?
Comments? Suggestions?
Ok, I need to really think about what I'm going to require W to do to continue on this path. I can't go any further without dealing with this.
Here's what I've been pondering. I'd appreciate any feedback:
* Her returning to OM's country, even for her work, is toxic to our R, so if she isn't willing to let that go, I'm out
* Letter of no-contact must be sent to OM, authored by us together
* Transparency plan?
* She should pay back all the money OM gave her. We never got divorced, so he essentially gave US the money, and I won't live with that
* She needs to tell me why she wants to save our M, and explain why I'm not her "plan B"
* STD test?
Comments? Suggestions?
FU,
It's a pretty good list, and remarkably similar to mine -- right down to the "borrowing money from the OM" (my wife borrowed the $$$ for her legal retainer from him). Ugh.
I also had the STD test on mine -- "full-panel STD test, with the results to come to me."
This is the only one that jumps out at me:
* She needs to tell me why she wants to save our M, and explain why I'm not her "plan B"
I understand what you're going for here, but it might be better to say "I need to know that you are 100% committed to our marriage. I will not be anyone's Plan B." I dunno.
Re: the first point. To what extent is her company REQUIRING her to go on this trip? Any way to independently verify that? I tend to agree, this would be a dealbreaker. I told my wife I could not feel safe in the marriage if she kept her job, at the gym where OM also worked. It pained her, but she did quit.
Puppy
My W has a private practice, she's self employed. She had no NEED to ever go to OM's country. Her field has a specialized training center there she got involved with over the last two years, but in an e-mail she sent me a couple months ago, she said she was stopping her work there "indefinitely". She mixed her work and her A with OM. About a year ago, when she originally asked me about taking our kids there, I said "I support your work, but unfortunately you've intertwined it with something I can't support." She got ENRAGED and spewed all sorts of venom at me, threatened me legally and financially, etc, etc. I stood my ground. All the crap like that that occurred over the past year and a half, I'm not quite sure how to fit that into this possible reconciliation. I'm just pushing it aside for now.
However, I don't think her work is the biggest reason she may resist giving up OM's country. She spent time there in her youth, and got close to other people too, not just OM. I'd be asking her to give up those people, forever. Is that reasonable? There is no way she can ever go to that country again alone, and I have no interest in going with her. It's completely tainted now, and is toxic to our M. I'm not looking forward to having this discussion with her, and I'm sure she's not either. Should I at least give her that MAYBE she can resume her R with those people (not OM of course!) once I am 100% satisfied in her committment to our M, and has completely earned back my trust, but warn her that may be many years.
As far as the money is concerned, I don't think OM loaned her any money, but he did give her thousands of dollars so she could travel to see him. I hate to say what that made me think of her. That's why I would want all that paid back. I wouldn't want to tell her that though!
Regarding the "Plan B" stuff, perhaps I just need to have a frank discussion about the things she said to me over the past couple years, like "I don't love you like I should", "you're not capable of loving me the way I need to be loved", "I can't imagine us growing old together", etc, and ask her what's changed. Of course I know what's changed is that she was obsessed with OM, so how could she possibly love me the way she should, or accept my love, or imagine us growing old together. I want to hear how she explains it.
Regarding the STD test, she probably won't balk too much at that, she's practical that way, but she might insist I get one too. If I say I don't need one, I'm telling her something I'm not sure I want to give up yet. I could always just tell her ok and go get one.
One other thing I should add to my list is that EVERYTHING she got for or from OM has to be thrown out. Every e-mail, card, letter, picture, lingerie, etc. She might balk at that, but how can she defend it? What does she want, to keep a little "memory box" about her A? If she keeps it in secret, like at her office, I should ask her "How will I feel if something happens to you and in my devastated state I have to go clean out your office and find it?"
I guess all this will test just how much she wants this reconciliation. If she agrees to my requirements, is it then time for ME to fully return to the M? By asking all this of her, I feel like that's what I'd be doing, and I'm not sure I want that yet.
Future,
I only have a moment, but:
- I think you're absolutely right to insist on no trip to other country . . . RIGHT NOW. If she does have those childhood connections to it, tho, I think you're going to have to tell her that there will come a time again when you feel comfortable going WITH her there, but there are just too many triggers there for you right now. I don't think you have a right to say "never, and not alone, but i won't go with you," though.
- I think you're absolutely right that she get rid of her affair momentos -- Affair-Busting/Reconcilation 101 stuff, that. She may fight you on that, tho -- HARD. See Hope4Us's old posts on that; it took his wife nearly a YEAR, I think, including MONTHS even after they were going really good like you and your wife are right now (even better).
- If OM's $$$ wasn't a loan, but just on trips to see him, I think you should let that sleeping dog lie. Having her pay him back only keeps her entangled with him, financially and emotionally. Chalk it off!
- STD test, I think you should offer to get one too. If I"m reading you right, you don't want to be SO okay to this that she doesn't perceive any threat that you've dated someone else??? Heck, you could have been using protection, but in any event, fair is fair.
I can predict what is going to happen, on any one of the above, or some combination of them: your wife is going to revolt, and you're going to have a spew-filled, major-full-blown SETBACK.
Let her.
Stay calm, stay actually LOVING, and say "Look, I understand completely if you're not ready to do this. I'm just telling you what I need in order to feel safe again in the marriage, considering what you've been doing this past year."
and STICK TO THAT.
If she's sincere, it will blow over. If she's NOT, and this has all been some set-up to get her (and maybe your kids) to go to other country, then better you find out now.
Puppy
Puppy
I think you're absolutely right to insist on no trip to other country . . . RIGHT NOW. If she does have those childhood connections to it, tho, I think you're going to have to tell her that there will come a time again when you feel comfortable going WITH her there, but there are just too many triggers there for you right now. I don't think you have a right to say "never, and not alone, but i won't go with you," though.
That feels ok to me.
I think you're absolutely right that she get rid of her affair momentos -- Affair-Busting/Reconcilation 101 stuff, that. She may fight you on that, tho -- HARD. See Hope4Us's old posts on that; it took his wife nearly a YEAR, I think, including MONTHS even after they were going really good like you and your wife are right now (even better).
I went and found Hope4Us's piecing thread. Strange reading it, as I remember reading some of it while it was happening, and I was in the worst of my sitch. Their sitch is about a year ahead of mine. In my sitch, I think I avoided some of what Hope4Us had to endure because my W did some of her healing while I was totally withdrawn from her and employing a NC approach, which helped me so much. My W seems to be in a place similar to where Hope4Us's W was several months after her A ended. I haven't picked up on any significant mood swings. Every time I see her or interact with her she seems fine. That was definitely NOT the case last year, or even earlier this year. I am becoming more and more a proponent of the no contact approach.
If OM's $$$ wasn't a loan, but just on trips to see him, I think you should let that sleeping dog lie. Having her pay him back only keeps her entangled with him, financially and emotionally. Chalk it off!
Yeah, I guess you're right. I think I just want OM to get a no contact letter with a big fat check in it, effectively saying to him "Our R is over, for good. I can't change the past, but I can give you back your money." Even if I should chalk it off, this would help me put it behind me. I know I have to pick my battles though.
STD test, I think you should offer to get one too. If I"m reading you right, you don't want to be SO okay to this that she doesn't perceive any threat that you've dated someone else??? Heck, you could have been using protection, but in any event, fair is fair.
Exactly.
I can predict what is going to happen, on any one of the above, or some combination of them: your wife is going to revolt, and you're going to have a spew-filled, major-full-blown SETBACK.
Let her.
Stay calm, stay actually LOVING, and say "Look, I understand completely if you're not ready to do this. I'm just telling you what I need in order to feel safe again in the marriage, considering what you've been doing this past year."
and STICK TO THAT.
If she's sincere, it will blow over. If she's NOT, and this has all been some set-up to get her (and maybe your kids) to go to other country, then better you find out now.
I agree that's a real possibility. Sometimes I wonder if asking for all this stuff just reeks of weakness. I think my strength is really what's attracted her back. Part of me thinks the gucci, Steve McQueen, robx approach is better. Be strong, be confident, so she instinctively knows if she crosses some obvious boundary, like contacting OM, or holding onto mementos from OM, then she risks me dumping HER. Not going back to OM's country is obvious. If in a year she says she's going, I'd respond "Have fun, D papers will be waiting for you when you get back." I'm really starting to think the most powerful position to be in is one where your W knows you have enough strength and self respect to walk if betrayed, one where she preemptively tries to put herself in the best possible situation to KEEP you.
Got back from my trip this evening. W asked if I wanted to meet her and the kids at a baseball game she was taking them to. I said okay. She had arranged for another family to go too, a family that we socialized with together before all this happened, but that she got in the split. I've seen them here and there, but I hadn't socialized with them since W moved out. This is her first attempt at re-introducing me into her social world. We had a great time at the baseball game. We transitioned kids in the parking lot and I just got home with them and put them to bed.
Since other family was at the baseball game with us, W and I could leave our kids for a few minutes to go get concessions. We were flirting a bit, and I looked into her eyes a couple times. She said "It's killing you, isn't it?" I said "What?" She said "You so want to kiss me." I feigned indifference and said "Nope, not getting that from me. You'll have to kiss me if that's what you want." She playfully said "Oh no, not me." I just smiled and walked on. When we stopped for some napkins she grabbed me and kissed me, pretty intensely for being in the middle of a big crowd.
Us hiding our affection from the kids is becoming a fun game. We try to steal little moments together like that. The kids obviously see we're being very friendly, but we hide most of what we're doing, for now. Some of my friends are somewhat judgemental, saying "You shouldn't be doing that in front of the kids, it'll just get their hopes up." My argument back is "Is it really that bad that our kids see us trying? Is it better if all they remember is one day Mommy moved out, and that was it? Seems to me that would leave them with a terrible kernel of insecurity to bring into their M someday." I don't buy this modern idea that when two parents split up, they should NEVER EVER let the kids see them acting "romantic", because it will give the kids "false hope". Well, I know this isn't "false hope", it's "real hope". Is it guaranteed? No, but we're trying. Even if it doesn't work, the kids could at least remember that we tried for a LONG time.
Guess I'm not in quite as good of shape as I hoped. W came over tonight after dinner. She needed a little help with her laptop, and offered to bring ice cream if I'd take a look. I thought it an obvious but cute attempt to come over here, so I said okay, but she had to bring a movie too.
She came over before the kids went to bed, and we all hung out for a while. After I got the kids to bed, I helped her with her computer. We were flirting pretty good. She said she wore a new perfume and wanted to know if I liked it. I did.
We put the movie on and laid next to each other on the sofa. We made out once in a while. I ramped it up too fast though. I don't even want to go there yet, but something inside me wanted to see how far I could push it before she backed off. Maybe I just wanted to see if she would back off. She eventually did, and she made joke out of it, but my reaction surprised me. I wasn't angry, but it caused me to wall back up a little. I wasn't as open and easy going, and it was a little awkward from then on. We finished the movie and she left. Now I feel very weird, and not good.
This isn't going to be easy, is it?
We have a tentative date to meet for a late breakfast in the morning. If we do get together, I think I should be honest and tell her how I feel.
Cat Toy! LOL
Sounds like normal dating behavior to me. (and normal male frustration on your part)
"The chase is better than the catch"
Future, you said a few times that you weren't sure you were ready to re-commit to your marriage, even if she agrees to your conditions. There isn't a rush. You've got a lot of years ahead of you. Just watch how things develop, and don't push the sex part--because it will put you back in the relationship immediately. Funny how you should wait--even though you're still married!
Just watch how things develop, and don't push the sex part--because it will put you back in the relationship immediately. Funny how you should wait--even though you're still married!
Puppy
Not Having Sex Makes You SMARTER!
I don't know Eileen got pretty dumb.
Future, you said a few times that you weren't sure you were ready to re-commit to your marriage, even if she agrees to your conditions. There isn't a rush. You've got a lot of years ahead of you. Just watch how things develop, and don't push the sex part--because it will put you back in the relationship immediately. Funny how you should wait--even though you're still married!
It is incredibly frustrating, having to think about my WIFE in this context. The vibe is very good between us, but I can feel each of us doing an emotional dance. She just now sent me an e-mail saying that very thing. She says she's feeling a push and pull, sometimes wanting to rush back in, then wanting to pull back and go slow.
She's suggesting we go away for a few days together to get away from kids and work and see how we do. It's been incredibly frustrating trying to get time to ourselves. We know we do great with the kids. We need to find out how we are together, just us.
Not Having Sex Makes You SMARTER!
I don't know Eileen got pretty dumb.
LOL! The men get smarter, the ladies get dumber!
Maybe I should go back to grad school until this gets resolved!
I'm laughing! Future, if you go on vacation, get separate rooms! What a hoot. Get separate rooms and sign in as Mr and Mrs. Future. It is funny.
Seperate rooms would make it more fun! Be a tease!
I just sent her a response. I said I was feeling a push and pull too, and I said we needed to find out if there is an immovable dealbreaker between us before we go further down this road.
However, I did say the idea of going away with her felt good, and I threw out some interesting and amusing suggestions on where we could go.
In her message, she said she thinks us going away together will result in either a "new beginning" or "healthy ending", although she hopes it's the former.
At the end of my reply, I said the following:
P.S. Wherever we decide to go, two rooms, ok? If we have our "healthy ending"
on the first day, I want to be free to date during the remainder of the trip.
Ha! ;^)
P.S. Wherever we decide to go, two rooms, ok? If we have our "healthy ending"
on the first day, I want to be free to date during the remainder of the trip.
Ha! ;^)
Catnip
OK Future. I love it!!! Please keep posting.
I will musclegal. Quite the soap opera I've got going!
Went to see W last night to hang out after kids went to bed. Just chilled and talked and watched TV. She is so touchy feely now. Always in contact with me. She oozes affection.
We talked about what we want out of life, and out of a partner. I was trying to be honest, but I couldn't help but notice I was describing her in most ways. I didn't mention honesty and trustworthiness though! Not quite ready to give her those back yet.
After joking about my number one requirement being someone with a smokin' hot bod, I said I learned how important it is for me to be with someone smart, someone who's curious, and interested in new things, and likes to talk through ideas. She just nodded, I'm sure she knew she had that one nailed. I continued, saying I want someone who appreciates me, not for what I do, but for who I am, and what I add to this world. She smiled and said "That's not hard at all for you now." I have not felt such ego stroking from her since we were first dating. She is remarkably good at it. It's how she got me in the first place.
She said she wants someone who treats her gently. I knew she wasn't just referring to physically, but emotionally overall. I've been so gentle with her since we started this recent interaction, and she told me it's what's pulling her toward me. She convincingly said "If you keep that up, you've got me." She has looked back through her life and hates the hostility that's been so prevalent, in her childhood, her first marriage, and then how we got. I can see how she is blossoming without that cloud of hositility over her.
She's starting to re-introduce me back into her social world, and it's brought up a dilemma for me. Her social world is pretty much what OUR social world was before she left. I developed a new social world for myself as part of my GALing, and survival. It's easy for her to bring me into her world, but I don't quite know what to do about mine. I have a lot of single friends now, including some women. I'm not sure how well we'd "fit" into that world as a married couple. I guess I GAL'ed sufficiently, because I'm finding myself not wanting to entirely give up that world. What to do? I think it would be VERY unhealthy for me to leave it all behind and go back to my world being solely defined by my marriage.
dare you to play man in me by bob dylan at an open mike soon
dare you to play man in me by bob dylan at an open mike soon
Does my W need to be there? Just playing it to a random crowd doesn't seem too big of a deal. The tune is up my alley, I think I could do it.
W did tell me she'd like to come watch me play the next time. Could possibly cause a clash between my W and my single world, as there may be "others" there too...
Yikes! These are complications of reconciling I didn't consider.
Yeah but, that is the kind of thing that will make your wife want you even more! A little competition.
Well, W and I had our "talk" over the weekend. Went about as well as could be expected. We hung out together as a family for the day, then we decided to go to W's house to put the kids to bed and watch a movie there. Before the movie we decided to have a serious talk, to discuss our "dealbreakers", i.e. things that would end our reconciliation right then. Started very tough. W said the only dealbreaker for her was that I needed to stay “nice”, and not go back to being grumpy. I said I couldn’t imagine being like I was. Then she asked what my dealbreakers were. I was silent for quite a while, as we knew “the talk” was about to start. We were sitting holding hands. Here’s how the dialog went:
W: “I know this is really hard for you to talk about, so I’ll start by saying OM and I are not communicating anymore.”
Me: “You can’t ever again, ever, in any way.”
W: “I know, and I won’t.”
Me: “If he contacts you, you have to immediately tell me.”
W: “I will. And if he does, I’ll tell him I don’t want him to.”
Me: “And W, you need to get rid of it all, everything.”
W: “I will…” (She hesitates and struggles a bit) “I’m going to need time though. If we get to the point of living together again, it will all be gone.”
Me: “I can’t see myself ever being okay with you going to <OM's country> alone again.”
W: “I know.” She smiled a little and said “You can come with me.”
Me: “Maybe. I won’t ask you to give up everyone you know there, so maybe, after we are really good again, maybe, we can go together.”
W: “Ok, but I’m shooting for fantastic, not just really good.” (I loved that comment)
Me: “It’s going to take a long long time before I can see myself wanting to go.”
W: “I’m not expecting myself to want to go back for at least a few years.”
Me: “Ok.”
W: “H, I can’t change what happened. It happened, and it had a big effect on me. I know it’ll never be ok, but I’m hoping someday we can at least have someplace to put it that feels safe. I hate that it’s so hard on you. I hate when anything, anything at all comes up that reminds you, because I don’t want it to hurt you any more.”
Me: Just nodded. I didn’t know what to say or how to react. My walls went up a bit, but not nearly as much as I was expecting.
W left to get a drink of water. When she came back:
W: (walks in and hugs me) “Thank you for not asking me to give up <OM's country>. The people there are so important to me.” (the people she knew as a teenager there)
Me: “I know how much they mean to you.”
W: “Thank you. Anything else?”
Me: “No other dealbreakers. I am worried about something though.”
Me: (really struggling to get this out) “I am having a hard time seeing a path to re-integrate you into my family.”
W: “I understand. If we’re as great with each other as I’m hoping and expecting us to be, they’ll see it and hopefully come around. Right now that isn’t important to me though.”
Me: “Luckily they aren’t local. It gives us a buffer.”
W: “If they were local, well, we’d have to deal with it. I did have some problems with them before all this happened, but I think we can eventually be okay with each other again.”
Me: “It’s hard for me to see a path, but I’m confident it’ll be ok. I know the path goes through me.”
W: nods
W: “I think that’s it for me. There are some other things I’m going to need from you, but I don’t think they’ll be dealbreakers. In fact, from what you’ve said, I think they’ll be things you want to do.”
Me: (smiling) “I think I will.”
W: (leans back and reflects a bit) “I want calm and peace in my life. I’ve realized that’s what keeps me nice.”
Me: “I can tell.”
Me: “Calm and peace was definitely not important to the W I met years ago though!”
W: “The way we interacted when we met, the stuff I said I liked, the way we argued through topics, I’ve realized I don’t want that anymore.”
Me: “Me neither. I like talking about things with you, but I think now we can exchange our ideas without the arguing.”
W: (smiled and got excited) “Exactly! I love talking to you.”
W: “Can we watch the movie now?”
Me: "We don't have to talk any more right now, but there are other things I need you to answer, like how you could act the way you did a year ago and act like this now."
W: "I could ask you the same thing." (that was a cop out, but I'll let it go for now)
Me: “Allright, let's watch the movie.”
We watched the movie laying together on her sofa. She was very affectionate. At one point she touched my forehead and said "You're not ok, are you? Your brow is furrowed." I replied "I'm not perfectly ok, but I'm not very 'not ok'". She looked a little concerned, but we went back to watching the movie.
So that was it. I didn't bring up transparency. Actually I forgot about it. I'm trying to decide what I should insist upon there. There's no foolproof way for me to verify no contact. They did most of their "talking" using Skype webcams. I don't think a keylogger would capture anything. If she was on her computer and a Skype "call" came in from OM, she could just click on it and start talking. I don't know if Skype logs everything, and even if it did, I'm sure the history can be deleted. She has three computers too, one of which stays at her office, plus her iPhone. I would need to ask to have access to her office computer whenever I wanted, which would mean having access to her office whenever I wanted. Her two business partners use that computer too. I'm sure they'd have serious objection my searching through it's hard drive whenever I wanted to. There might even be HIPA laws that would make my viewing their e-mail and files, due to their line of work. I don't know, I might need to just trust her, or better yet, trust my gut. When her A started before, my gut knew something was wrong, I just never considered an A, never in a million years. My eyes are wide open now though!
Well, Future, I must applaud you!
You really have done an amazing job and your patience is all very inspiring.
On a totally random note: go buy some Chocolate Cheerios. I realize this has nothing to do with anything but I needed to tell somebody at this hour how delicious they are.
Seriously though, you really are fabulous! Your W is very, very fortunate to have you (and your kids too!).
I am glad you never listened to my ass busting divorce ideas because look how it all panned out. I love being wrong in these cases!
Thanks CityGirl. It's been quite a ride, and it's not over yet. Folks here say the real work starts with piecing. Crap.
Ha! I'm actually allergic to chocolate, so no chocolate Cheerios for me. I'll pick up a box for my kids though!
Some of my hardest decisions were those that tried to balance the advice I was getting from the people in my life, along with what I feel inside, and what I felt from her. You weren't wrong though. I still think I'd be better off if I had pushed through the D, or at least legal separation last year, like you and many others were advising me to do. I don't think it would have changed any of what's going on now, except it would have removed the stress of our lingering financial and custody issues.
Saw W this morning. She has a pinched nerve in her neck and had to take the day off from work to rest. She texted me and asked if I could stop over for a few minutes after dropping the kids at school. I picked up coffee for us both. She's in quite a bit of pain, and she was happy to see me.
After a few minutes she said "After our talk the weekend I found myself rubber banding. I thought there is no way we're going to be able to do this, it'll be too hard. But then when I remember how this feels, us being together like this, I come back to wanting it." I said "Yeah, I was doing a little rubber banding myself." She continued "I sort of panic, like there is no way I can do what it will take, no way I want to give up what I'm going to need to give up. When I think about being fantastic with you, like we said, then it all comes back and I want to do it." She paused and said "I'm going to have to be so aware, and so present with you about certain things. It's daunting, but it's worth it."
When she talked about what she's going to need to "give up", I don't think she was talking about OM, as that's already over. I think she was talking about her freedom. Like I said a few posts ago, I'm feeling the same trepidation. I worked hard to build my new life, and I've learned to enjoy my freedom. I'm hesitant to just give it up.
Funny, she did ask again if I'm dating anyone. I was evasive again, but eventually I said "No, I'm not dating anyone, but I do have people in my life you don't know, and a few of them are women." She reared back and said in an amused tone "A few?!" I joked "Yeah, I always have a few in my stable." I could see she was struggling with a bit of jealousy, but she used humor and smiled and said "I don't mind, I have something they don't have, I'm married to you." I replied "Yeah, and you have three kids with me."
Like v1olin said, nothing wrong with a little competition!
I am so glad for you, Future.
The four phases of reconciliation:
- let go of negative feelings
- become friends again
- rekindle romance
- commit to each other
Sounds like you both are getting there. Awareness is a big deal.
Cheers
Let go of negative feelings - 95% there. I know I have a little deep seated lingering anger, but it's manageable. I'm not holding onto it though, it's just there, and I'm sure it will be there for a long time, years. I don't feel any anger from her at all.
Become friends again - 80% there. I feel totally ok sharing everything about my life with her, except some of the aspects of my single life. Not totally different from any new relationship starting up.
Rekindle romance - 50% there. There is a lot of affection and physical attraction, but going very slow. It is so emotionally loaded for us both.
Commit to each other - 25% there. Right now we're committed to the point of calling each other, offering to share our time with the kids with each other, feeling like we can ask things of each other, but no real obligation, and certainly no committment to a future together. We're taking it day by day.
It all sounds good, future!
It doesn't move as fast as you would like, but you're heading in the right direction.
Take your time and enjoy wooing your wife again. What a great second chance with 20-20 hind sight to be able to avoid past mistakes. Have patience and take things slow.
I wish I were where you are!
Has your W dropped the lawsuit (RE: custody?). Have you spoken with your attny about your present situation?
One thing my attny suggested to me (and this really is probably more suited to residents of NY state) is if a reconciliation does happen it is very wise to have a post nuptial agreement drawn up. My attny even said he didn't care what firm I used but please, please do that if my H and I did reconcile. It doesn't have to be some big to do, it's merely a document that both spouses agree to and sign. And let's face it... after you have been wrapped up in divorce/separation/custody litigation of any kind in this state it seems like a pretty reasonable idea.
I know it's not terribly romantic but for me, all this BS was MORE THAN ENOUGH one time around, lol!
The lawsuit isn't dropped, we're actually supposed to appear next week. W said her lawyer told her to just show up and, assuming I'm on board with it, jointly tell the judge we're working together toward a solution. Then the judge will likely set some time in the future to revisit. As you said before, reconciliations often fail. Things are changing fast though, and have had our tough discussions. It's certainly looking more and more like we're going to save our marriage. I'm not sure what my W wants to do now about the lawsuit. To tell the truth, I forgot all about it until you just brought it up! I will bring it up this weekend.
What is the purpose of the post nuptial agreement? To lay out custody or finances in case the reconciliation fails?
Is it time for me to move to the Piecing board? I feel a little silly in "Newcomers", but it's been my home for so long here.
I would stick around here for awhile. Piecing does not get a lot of traffic, so if you want to gear down on the postings, then go for it, but if you still want more input then stay where you are comfortable. Of course, your 'fans' will follow you, I'm sure.
That is basically what my attny said... it provides a legal/financial (and custody in your case) framework in case the reconciliation goes sour. He actually said sometimes it helps the reconciliation as the "admin" stuff is figured out and there are no "what ifs" floating around.
It seems like a good idea IMO but I say that AFTER being in this mess of a court system.
Here's an update, for those who might be interested, along with a chance for me to journal...
R with W continues to improve and progress. We are spending more and more time together. Was very hot here over the weekend and she was invited to bring the kids to her friends' house to hang out and swim in their pool. She said her friends invited me too. They are my old friends as well, but she got them in the split (LOL). They made me feel very welcome and we had a great time. The next night she said her other friends invited me to their house for dinner. She is really opening her world back up to me. I continue to be unclear as to how to bring her into my world. Hers is one of families, mine is one of middle aged single people going out to have fun.
I did most of Father's Day alone with the kids, but I did invite her over for dinner. She went and bought a "Happy Father's Day!" cake and brought it with her, which I thought was very sweet of her, no pun intended! Dinner went very well. I can feel her starting to relax being back at the house. Funny though, she does not assume any "ownership" there though. She defers to me on everything, as a guest would. Although that's strange in some ways, it is respectful.
After dinner we played outside with the kids, then she helped with bedtime. After the kids were in bed, she stayed to talk. She said she knows she's "jumping the gun", and it's just talk right now, but she's been looking through the real estate listings, and walking around her neighborhood looking at houses for sale. In the past I would acted as though she was wasting her time, because we obvioulsy aren't anywhere near ready for that yet, but now I know this is how she works. She needs to dream like this, it's how she moves emotionally from one place to another. I had fun with it, we looked at house listings online and talked about the pros and cons of each. She loved it. She even said "I can't believe I'm saying this, but if I moved back in here, we could save for a new house a lot faster."
Then I thought I'd take a chance. I asked her if she'd ever heard of the book "The Five Love Languages". She said no. I teased her a little, given that she does marriage and family counseling for a living. She wasn't negative on it at all, she just said there are so many therapists who write these books, it's hard to keep up on them all. She also told me that since the downfall of our M, she has migrated her work almost entirely to families, as it's "just too hard to do M counseling now". She said she refers the troubled marriages to her colleagues. I liked that at least she was admitting she wasn't objective about it anymore.
I told her a little about the five LL, and said there was a test, and asked if she'd like to take it. She enthusiastically said yes, so I went and got the book. We talked about whether I should read her the questions, or whether she should take it on her own. She totally wanted me to read them to her, but I said "Are you sure you can answer honestly? I'm afraid you'll be swayed from your gut reaction by wanting to spare my feelings." She said "H, we are really trying to be honest with each other now, so this will be a great test of that." I read her each question, some of which started little side conversations, which were totally awesome! They forced us to discuss many things we might not have, and she was totally honest. I knew she'd be big on "Words of Affirmation" and sure enough, that was tied as her top LL, along with "Physical Touch", which surprised me. I would have guessed "Quality Time" would be way up there, but it was very low. I told her how I remember her trying so hard to get us some quality time together, but she said that was so we could be alone to get the things that mattered to her, my words of love and to be physically close to me. She did jokingly say she's realized she's a cat, as in she needs to be the one to approach physically, not be approached. Then she said I'm definitely a dog! LOL!
Although "Words of Affirmation" and "Physical Touch" were tied in her test, my gut knows that words are the real keys to her heart. Whenever we have a particularly close talk or I say just the right things, she melts, which then leads to the physical stuff. Unfortunately, I also know that was how OM got to her :-(.
For any other DBers out there, one particularly interesting thing she said was "H, I remember every time over the last couple years when you said I was a good Mother." Just as other successful DBing stories have shown, you find out later that they are listening to you, they are watching you, and they are thinking about you.
She was impressed by the ideas in the book, and she asked if she could take it to read it.
She shocked me when she mentioned something from the previous day. I was meeting her and the kids at her friends' pool, which is in the back of their house. I got there a couple hours after her, and I knew they'd be in the back, so I walked around the house to the gate. She was laying on a lounge chair in her bikini looking spectacular, and I just crossed my arms along the top of the fence and looked at her. She eventually saw me and smiled. I smiled back but made no sound at all, and her two friends had their backs to me. One of them saw her looking my way, and turned and shrieked when she saw me standing there. She joked "You scared me to death! What are you doing standing there? I turn around and see a man in sunglasses leering in!" I smiled and said "I'm just standing here, and I'm not leering..." I keep smiling and look at my W, then say "Well... maybe I am leering a little." Then I walked through the gate and went over to my W, crouched next to her on one knee, put my hand on her, and said "Hi W, happy anniversary." Saturday was our 11th anniversary, but we had agreed we weren't going to do cards or gifts or anything. I didn't want it left ignored altogether though. She smiled and answered "Happy anniversary."
Anyway, back to last night, she recalled those events and took a breath and shook her head and said "H, wow, you were so impressive coming in like that." I was confused and said "Like what?" She said "Your presence, the way you held yourself, the way you walked in, the way your were dressed. You were just... hot. Is that what you were going for?" I was so surprised, I said "Ah, no, I just walked in." She said "Well, you were incredibly sexy, and I was thinking to myself, that's the guy I'm dating? Wow."
I know I'm just a average decent looking guy, nothing special, so this really blew me away. I'm including that story here as a validation of some of the basic DBing principles. Don't dwell on your misery, GAL, get into shape, remember what attracted her to you in the beginning. It might take time, a long time, but be a strong confident man, and you can attract your WAW back to you. I was a fun interesting person when I met my W. I became so pathetic in our M. I lost sight of what makes a woman want to be with a man. It can't be obligation. If deep down you know you were relying on obligation for a long time, and if you're holding onto anger based on her "breaking her vows", try to let that go. She will never come back if she feels you will beat her over the head with that "obligation" card, but she might come back if she realizes she's losing something great.
At this point, I think we're going to make it. My goal is to keep moving at the right pace.
Oh yeah, before she left last night, she hugged me and whispered in my ear "I'm starting to fall in love with you again."
Good stuff.
Oh, I am so happy for you, Future. You did the work indeed, and you are beginning to reap the rewards.
I wish my H had done so, but I guess the roles were reversed. He had the EA, I did the work, but he didn't respond. I am starting to wonder what I did wrong, if anything.
'Eh, life is good despite that. And again, really happy for you.
Beingme, I am wondering the same thing! Future, YOU ARE THE MAN! LOL
Future, been watching and following along. You're doing a good job. A far cry from the man who was scared to let go in order to find himself. (Too lazy to dig up my previous posts to you... especially the one where you thought you'd lost it all by pushing ahead for the D)
Anyway, that's in the past. So, your wife is a cat huh?
Here's a tip for you:
You're being too available at the moment. It's time to pull back a little bit and arouse her curiosity some more. You're a busy man who is in demand... busy men are not always available at their WAW's beck and call... those are needy men.
Turn down an odd invitation or two here and there... turn up the mystery a little. Cat's like to be petted AFTER they pursue. Let her do her job so you can do yours.
If that's a bit vague let me know and I'll spell it out for you.
Thanks folks. I did slowly come to realize that I wasn't nearly as much to blame as I was burdening myself with. I had my part, she had hers, our M was a mess. That's about it. I'm just glad we're getting this chance to treat each other right.
Gnosis- I agree, I am being too available. I have actually turned her down a couple times, just didn't post here, but it is time for me to disappear a little again. Not a game, we have taken a giant leap forward, and a breather is needed to let it sink in. I've learned the value of patience. Time has a way of clarifying a situation.
I definitely remember how I was so scared before, how I thought I potentially made a fatal mistake by standing up for myself and telling her to hit the road. Wow, I was so off base. It was exactly what our R needed. I remember you saying I needed to "break her", which sounds bad, but I knew what you meant. She was clinging to her notion that she was queen and everything was my fault. She felt she was entitled to my attention, and she used my feelings toward her to manipulate me. After losing me for 4-5 months, that resolve was "broken" in her. She had to give me the respect I deserved.
To any others reading, it really is true that you can't let your WAW bully you, or scare you. When I finally stood up to my W she said and did all sorts of things meant to try to get me back under her control. She said "Now I know there's no going back", "I was considering reconciliation, but now I know there's no chance", blah, blah, blah. All standard WAW script. Easy to say that now, but her words were putting me into a panic at the time. Go back and read my old threads from six months ago! Not pretty, and somewhat embarassing for me.
My W withdrew her petition for custody yesterday! Not only that, she was excited about doing it. After sticking to my guns regarding the custody issue, she did ask if I'd be willing to let her keep the kids at her house for a few extra overnights during the summer, and I said ok. She sent back a text full of "xxxx". It's becoming somewhat of a moot point, as I'm over at her house so much now, along with her being at mine.
She continues to be affectionate with me. Very physical, always touching.
I do have some concerns, but I don't know if it's asking for too much too soon. She doesn't yet seem to fully accept responsibility for what she did. She still clings to the notion that our marital problems were an excuse for what she did. I do see glimmers of true remorse though, so I'm willing to wait and see. Also, she seems awfully motivated by what SHE wants out of the reconciliation, although in return she has said she will try to give me everything I need too.
I am still very stuck regarding how to integrate our possible reconciliation with the single life I built for myself. This isn't a case where the wayward spouse returns to the marriage before the betrayed spouse moves on. I did move on. I built a life for myself, and I like it. Now I feel like I'm living two lives.
I am still very stuck regarding how to integrate our possible reconciliation with the single life I built for myself. This isn't a case where the wayward spouse returns to the marriage before the betrayed spouse moves on. I did move on. I built a life for myself, and I like it. Now I feel like I'm living two lives.
Good, then you can be patient and wait for true remorse, the kind that passes an acid test.
I am still very stuck regarding how to integrate our possible reconciliation with the single life I built for myself. This isn't a case where the wayward spouse returns to the marriage before the betrayed spouse moves on. I did move on. I built a life for myself, and I like it. Now I feel like I'm living two lives.
Good, then you can be patient and wait for true remorse, the kind that passes an acid test.
Slow and eaaaasssy, Future. Her words are CHEAP at this point. Only her ACTIONS -- OVER TIME -- are what you should weigh.
Puppy
Absolutely agree with Puppy.
Exactly. Words are cheap, that's why withdrawing the petition means so much. That's tangible action taken to help heal our R. In the last six weeks this has been going on, she has been remarkably consistent. Almost always affectionate, and when she's not, she wants to talk about why, rather than just act distant and weird. So far we've been able to get some hard stuff out on the table and dealt with.
We have a loooonnnnggg way to go though.
Situation continues to evolve for me. W has definitely pulled back a good amount. I can see she is struggling, and she is trying to be honest, rather than play games. She found out she has two herniated discs in her neck, and may need to have surgery. She was devastated by the news. She told me on the phone friday, and I could hear she was scared and upset. I knew she was at her office, so as a 180 for me, I decided to make a stop in there to see her. I showed up at her office, something I've never done before. She looked shocked, and asked "What are you doing here?" I just smiled and said "On the phone you sounded like you needed a hug", and I reached out and hugged her. She grabbed hold and hugged back for quite a while. Her accountant (an older woman) was there, and she introduced me as her husband. We chit chatted for a few minutes, then I said I had to go. Before I left I said "It would be my pleasure to take you and the kids to dinner tonight, if you'd like." She enthusiastically said "Absolutely!"
I had plans for the night, but they weren't until later, so I picked up W and kids at her house after work. W was still pretty stressed out, and wasn't dealing well with the kids. We went out to eat, and had a great time. Went back to W's house, and I said I have to go since I have plans. W was in so much of a better mood, she and the kids asked if I could stay for one game of cards, and I said sure. After the game I left to go to a concert with friends. W seemed light and happy when I left. She thanked me for the night, and told me it totally changed her mood, and that she's now fine to handle the kids.
Her neck has finally been feeling better enough for us to go out on a date. She had asked me a few weeks ago if I'd take her out on a nice date, get all dressed up, etc, and I said sure. Saturday night was the night we planned to go. We went to a fabulous restaurant we've wanted to go to for years. Perfect weather. Our conversation covered a lot of ground.
She is struggling so much. I actually do feel sorry for her. She had been pulling back over the last couple weeks, not very affectionate with me, no talk about us or the future. No anger either, just some distance. I wanted to get everything right out on the table, so I opened right up:
Me: "If this isn't going anywhere good, I'm really okay with us just stopping."
W: "I know I've been distant lately, there's so much going on for me with my neck right now, I just don't have anything left for dealing with us."
Me: I know her, and I know she was using that as an excuse to explain her pullback. I said "I know it's been hard on you, but that's not it. I was happy a few months ago, and I have be honest, I'm not as happy now."
W: "I know you were happy, and I don't want you being devastated again, so if at any point you want to stop doing this, just let me know and we can stop."
Me: I was a bit insulted by her attitude that I was some lovesick puppy, and she was forced to offer to be a martyr to prevent me from getting hurt. That BS, so I said "I'm not capable of being devastated anymore, it has nothing to do with that. I am very clear about what I want out of a R, and if this isn't going to satisfy that, then I'm fine moving on."
W: She was surprised, and just said "Oh, ok."
We were together for four hours, the conversation wandered all over. The restaurant we were at was ridiculously romantic, and we were being very affectionate. We were probably one of those couples the other patrons were noticing, for all of our physical touching and our eyes never leaving each other. W started being very honest about how she's feeling.
W: "I've never thought I'd be with anyone when I was an old woman. I always just envisioned myself alone. I don't know why."
Me: I just nodded and listened, and said "Interesting."
W: She lightened up a little, then said "I don't know, sometimes I think I can maybe have a few more opportunities to get laid, then just settle into being alone."
Me: I was really appreciating her opening up to me, but it's hard to hear your W talk about getting laid.
W: Funny, then she asked "When you're out, do women hit on you?"
Me: I laughed and said "Middle aged women are so desperate."
W: "Thanks a lot!" She got more serious and said "I look at myself in the mirror, and I see all these wrinkles. I was never good at picking up men, and now I know whatever looks I had are fading."
Me: I started to say something, and she cut me off.
W: "I'm not fishing for a compliment. Really."
Me: I can see she'll just think any attempt at me telling her how physically attractive she is will sound like I'm arguing with her self assessemtn, so I say "W, you are smart, and fun, and interesting."
W: "No I'm not, I mean, I know I can read people, and I'm insightful into emotions, I know that, but other than that, there's really not a whole lot else I have to offer."
Me: I can see she is really hurting inside. I say "W, one thing I've realized being out there is how much it means to me to be with someone who is interested in talking about things, different ideas, willing to give almost anything a chance, and you are. That's very appealing, trust me."
W: She's still not entirely buying it, and says "I really need a hobby or two."
Me: "Sounds great, what do you want to do?" Then I lightened back up, and had to tease her a little. I said "I have to admit, when we started spending time together, I was a little shocked how much you are into TV. You asked me what shows I watch, and there aren't any, and you have a list of shows you're into, so yeah, I think a hobby would be great!"
W: Playfully hits me and says "Jerk!"
What has become apparent to me is how much she had been relying on her A to take the place of real growth, and now she's feeling that. She's on her own, and she feels boring and old. Wow, amazing how these situations progress.
Another interesting bit of conversation.
Me: "W, I have taken serious stock of myself, and done serious relfecting how I failed as a husband. I've expressed that to you, and I've owned it. I have to say, I haven't heard much from you about your part."
W: Gets uncomfortable, and looks a little scared, then says "I know, I know there are things we need to talk about."
Me: "W, you have a burden to carry, and you don't even seem to acknowledge that, let alone show me you're willing to accept it."
W: Just nods in response.
Me: I'm getting increasingly frustrated with her continued satisfaction with this limbo, so I say "W, seemed to me you were interested in me sexually a few weeks ago, but I'm not feeling any of that any more. A part of me thinks that it's just not there, so maybe we should just admit that."
W: She got a little angry and said "H, if it wasn't there, I wouldn't be here. When we're making out, I get turned on. It's working, trust me, but there is still old stuff between us holding me back. If and when we get there, I want to be ML to you completely, without anything in the way."
Me: The look on her face was very convincing, so I smiled, and said "Wow... ok."
We talked about many more light things, and did some fun flirting. Our dinner was over and we went to leave. We were upstairs at the restaurant, and we had to walk down a set of back stairs to get out. At the bottom of the stairs I realized we were in complete privacy. She had taken a step into the main dining room, and I said "Hey" and I pulled her back to the landing of the stairs, and into me. I aggressively kissed her and grabbed her sexually, for just a moment, then smiled and said "Now we can go", and started walking. She was stunned, and came up to me and whispered something playful and sexual in my ear. We walked out with her arms wrapped around my side.
A park was nearby. We drove there and parked, and walked through the park. A big gazebo was in the middle, all lit up. Completely unplanned, I led her up the steps of the gazebo, and grabbed her and we started to slowly dance, with no music! People were all around, they must have thought we were nuts! We just swayed in concert with each other, and I said "Are you imagining any particular song?" She said "No, I'm listening to you." Incredibly romantic. We dance for about five minutes, then walk down, and go to a nearby place for one last drink and a little more talk. We were both really starting to falter by then, tired, and emotionally exhausted from the conversation. We left the place and made out in front of the car for a few minutes. I drove her back home, we made out for a few more minutes, she said "Thank you for tonight", and she went inside.
I think good step forward for us. We'll see...
Situation continues to evolve for me. W has definitely pulled back a good amount. I can see she is struggling, and she is trying to be honest, rather than play games. She found out she has two herniated discs in her neck, and may need to have surgery. She was devastated by the news. She told me on the phone friday, and I could hear she was scared and upset. I knew she was at her office, so as a 180 for me, I decided to make a stop in there to see her. I showed up at her office, something I've never done before. She looked shocked, and asked "What are you doing here?" I just smiled and said "On the phone you sounded like you needed a hug", and I reached out and hugged her. She grabbed hold and hugged back for quite a while. Her accountant (an older woman) was there, and she introduced me as her husband. We chit chatted for a few minutes, then I said I had to go. Before I left I said "It would be my pleasure to take you and the kids to dinner tonight, if you'd like." She enthusiastically said "Absolutely!"
I had plans for the night, but they weren't until later, so I picked up W and kids at her house after work. W was still pretty stressed out, and wasn't dealing well with the kids. We went out to eat, and had a great time. Went back to W's house, and I said I have to go since I have plans. W was in so much of a better mood, she and the kids asked if I could stay for one game of cards, and I said sure. After the game I left to go to a concert with friends. W seemed light and happy when I left. She thanked me for the night, and told me it totally changed her mood, and that she's now fine to handle the kids.
Her neck has finally been feeling better enough for us to go out on a date. She had asked me a few weeks ago if I'd take her out on a nice date, get all dressed up, etc, and I said sure. Saturday night was the night we planned to go. We went to a fabulous restaurant we've wanted to go to for years. Perfect weather. Our conversation covered a lot of ground.
She is struggling so much. I actually do feel sorry for her. She had been pulling back over the last couple weeks, not very affectionate with me, no talk about us or the future. No anger either, just some distance. I wanted to get everything right out on the table, so I opened right up:
Me: "If this isn't going anywhere good, I'm really okay with us just stopping."
W: "I know I've been distant lately, there's so much going on for me with my neck right now, I just don't have anything left for dealing with us."
Me: I know her, and I know she was using that as an excuse to explain her pullback. I said "I know it's been hard on you, but that's not it. I was happy a few months ago, and I have be honest, I'm not as happy now."
W: "I know you were happy, and I don't want you being devastated again, so if at any point you want to stop doing this, just let me know and we can stop."
Me: I was a bit insulted by her attitude that I was some lovesick puppy, and she was forced to offer to be a martyr to prevent me from getting hurt. That BS, so I said "I'm not capable of being devastated anymore, it has nothing to do with that. I am very clear about what I want out of a R, and if this isn't going to satisfy that, then I'm fine moving on."
W: She was surprised, and just said "Oh, ok."
We were together for four hours, the conversation wandered all over. The restaurant we were at was ridiculously romantic, and we were being very affectionate. We were probably one of those couples the other patrons were noticing, for all of our physical touching and our eyes never leaving each other. W started being very honest about how she's feeling.
W: "I've never thought I'd be with anyone when I was an old woman. I always just envisioned myself alone. I don't know why."
Me: I just nodded and listened, and said "Interesting."
W: She lightened up a little, then said "I don't know, sometimes I think I can maybe have a few more opportunities to get laid, then just settle into being alone."
Me: I was really appreciating her opening up to me, but it's hard to hear your W talk about getting laid.
W: Funny, then she asked "When you're out, do women hit on you?"
Me: I laughed and said "Middle aged women are so desperate."
W: "Thanks a lot!" She got more serious and said "I look at myself in the mirror, and I see all these wrinkles. I was never good at picking up men, and now I know whatever looks I had are fading."
Me: I started to say something, and she cut me off.
W: "I'm not fishing for a compliment. Really."
Me: I can see she'll just think any attempt at me telling her how physically attractive she is will sound like I'm arguing with her self assessemtn, so I say "W, you are smart, and fun, and interesting."
W: "No I'm not, I mean, I know I can read people, and I'm insightful into emotions, I know that, but other than that, there's really not a whole lot else I have to offer."
Me: I can see she is really hurting inside. I say "W, one thing I've realized being out there is how much it means to me to be with someone who is interested in talking about things, different ideas, willing to give almost anything a chance, and you are. That's very appealing, trust me."
W: She's still not entirely buying it, and says "I really need a hobby or two."
Me: "Sounds great, what do you want to do?" Then I lightened back up, and had to tease her a little. I said "I have to admit, when we started spending time together, I was a little shocked how much you are into TV. You asked me what shows I watch, and there aren't any, and you have a list of shows you're into, so yeah, I think a hobby would be great!"
W: Playfully hits me and says "Jerk!"
What has become apparent to me is how much she had been relying on her A to take the place of real growth, and now she's feeling that. She's on her own, and she feels boring and old. Wow, amazing how these situations progress.
Another interesting bit of conversation.
Me: "W, I have taken serious stock of myself, and done serious relfecting how I failed as a husband. I've expressed that to you, and I've owned it. I have to say, I haven't heard much from you about your part."
W: Gets uncomfortable, and looks a little scared, then says "I know, I know there are things we need to talk about."
Me: "W, you have a burden to carry, and you don't even seem to acknowledge that, let alone show me you're willing to accept it."
W: Just nods in response.
Me: I'm getting increasingly frustrated with her continued satisfaction with this limbo, so I say "W, seemed to me you were interested in me sexually a few weeks ago, but I'm not feeling any of that any more. A part of me thinks that it's just not there, so maybe we should just admit that."
W: She got a little angry and said "H, if it wasn't there, I wouldn't be here. When we're making out, I get turned on. It's working, trust me, but there is still old stuff between us holding me back. If and when we get there, I want to be ML to you completely, without anything in the way."
Me: The look on her face was very convincing, so I smiled, and said "Wow... ok."
We talked about many more light things, and did some fun flirting. Our dinner was over and we went to leave. We were upstairs at the restaurant, and we had to walk down a set of back stairs to get out. At the bottom of the stairs I realized we were in complete privacy. She had taken a step into the main dining room, and I said "Hey" and I pulled her back to the landing of the stairs, and into me. I aggressively kissed her and grabbed her sexually, for just a moment, then smiled and said "Now we can go", and started walking. She was stunned, and came up to me and whispered something playful and sexual in my ear. We walked out with her arms wrapped around my side.
A park was nearby. We drove there and parked, and walked through the park. A big gazebo was in the middle, all lit up. Completely unplanned, I led her up the steps of the gazebo, and grabbed her and we started to slowly dance, with no music! People were all around, they must have thought we were nuts! We just swayed in concert with each other, and I said "Are you imagining any particular song?" She said "No, I'm listening to you." Incredibly romantic. We dance for about five minutes, then walk down, and go to a nearby place for one last drink and a little more talk. We were both really starting to falter by then, tired, and emotionally exhausted from the conversation. We left the place and made out in front of the car for a few minutes. I drove her back home, we made out for a few more minutes, she said "Thank you for tonight", and she went inside.
I think good step forward for us. We'll see...
And
THAT, ladies and gentlemen . . .
is how it's DONE. Puppy
Thanks Puppy. I'm not nearly as confident as these posts sound. I had moments of hesitation and insecurity that night too, but I think I did a decent job of leading. At one point she said "H, one thing I'm sure of now is no matter what happens, I know we'll be great friends." More cake eating crap. I had to pick my battles that night, so I didn't contest it, but I didn't validate it either. I know she was fishing for validation to lower her anxiety, but I didn't give it. Another time, in a particular moment of lunacy, she said "It would be so great if we could buy houses next to each other. The kids have been enjoying this so much." Again, I said nothing in response. Totally ridiculous.
She sent me an e-mail the next day thanking me again for the date. When I saw her later that day she said "Do you think we'll ever be able to go out and just have fun?" I said "Sure, if that's what we want, we'll put all the hard stuff off limits for a night." She smiled and said "Don't get me wrong, the night was great, but it gets exhausting talking about that stuff." I said "Yeah, it does."
Yeah, you're going to have to burst that fantasy bubble at some point. Ain't gonna happen, I assume??
Puppy
Future, loved that post! Gives us all hope. Thanks for sharing!
Yeah, you're going to have to burst that fantasy bubble at some point. Ain't gonna happen, I assume??
Do you mean she won't allow it to burst, or are you worried I won't push hard enough to burst it?
I meaning that one way or another, you're going to have to make it clear to her that this isn't going to be Wisteria Lane here, with Ward living in one house and June across the street, and Wally and the Beav strolling happily 'tween the two.
Yes, I am. I think this situation may need to go through one more whole cycle to truly get resolved, meaning I may need to let go and move on, again, and let her feel that sting. I am increasingly confident that when push comes to shove, she will not let me go, but again she won't feel that until she's standing at the precipice. These WAW are infuriating!!!!
Don't be afraid to put your "best-friendship" on the table. My wife told me that losing THAT (and I made it VERY clear to her), more than anything, caused her to end her affair and come back to our marriage.
Puppy
I got the following e-mail from my W last night
************
H-
I got some clarity today about what I need. I realized that I haven't really taken hold of me, and established myself in activities that fill me. I know I do it with work and with relationships and travel, but I end up continuing to bounce around and feel unsettled and unhappy. So for the the next several weeks I'll be spending time trying to establish myself in a hobby that will help me feel anchored, and more myself. I'm going to resist caving to my inner temptation to simply bury myself with you, or with the kids, or with work. So when I say no thanks to invites in the upcoming weeks, please know this is why. I absolutely have to do this. And as a compliment, you've done it for your life and it's quite inspiring.
I think that once I've established a life for me, I will be very clear about us. I do have moments that I want you, and want a life with you. But I also still have moments where I want to run away because I'm overwhelmed by 'your' or 'our' life. It seems very obvious and I feel like a dolt.
My first plan is to look into something like a hiking club, or sierra club. I feel most grounded and calm and happy in nature-woods, water, desert.
W
************
My first reaction to this is one of compassion. I want her to find the happiness she's missing. She is incapable of truly being someone's partner until she finds it. I know that. We did speak on the phone last night after she sent the message, and I totally agreed with her. I wished her luck. She was very relieved and said "Don't think this means we won't spend any time together." I didn't give her anything like "I'll be here waiting", or any other such dreck. I told her I'm going back to living my life.
My second reaction is to walk away. She has been a lost soul her whole life. I don't know if I want to continue waiting for her to finally realize happiness is right in front of her. I almost replied to the e-mail with something along the lines of "Don't worry about finding clarity regarding us. I'm becoming convinced we are not meant to be. I truly hope you find what you're looking for. I know what I want and I'm going to go find it."
She is being kind and respectful to me, and she's obviously trying to be honest. She is so lost and unhappy, but I have not felt any anger from her in months. I do believe our R is healed from that point of view, but I am so weary of feeling unwanted.
I'd appreciate any comments or insight.
I don't know. That was kind of out there-a hiking club. But, best of luck on this. I know it is causing you some pain and I hate that for you.
This sounded like a "I need some space" email. It still feels like she wanted you to know that she still is interested in pursuing the new R you and her are building.
What would make you feel wanted? By your W or anyone else. You have come through this awful time brilliantly, made a life for yourself, worked on being your own man ... I am truly amazed at how well you have done. Yet you still need to feel that sense of being wanted. Is it a kind of validation of sorts?
Just wondering.
I think it's healthy for her to want a hobby that is hers.
Ask her "how can I help you with that?" Let her ask you to join her in it. Maybe pick up a magazine about hiking and give it to her, "I saw this and thought of you." Be her partner, stand at her side on this.
I agree with Coach that it's healthy for her to have a hobby that's hers.
however, I disagree on the part of asking how can I help and giving her hiking stuff. (Sorry Coach)
Let me explain.
She wants space. She is taking up hiking to have a hobby of her own. If he steps in and gives her stuff, helps, whatever.... it's not her own-it's now shared. And it's not having space, he's now involved.
My H is like that. I ask for help or share an idea and he's taking over- assuming he's helping or being involved.... it's like the MIL that comes for a visit and rearranges your house and is suggesting paint colors. What it does is just make me feel less like me and less in control of me.
She clearly states that she feels "overwhelmed by 'your' or 'our' life. It seems very obvious and I feel like a dolt. "
You need to step back from whatever hobby she chooses. Make positive comments ("I'm glad you had a great hike", "the lake sounds beautiful") only when she shares with you.... leave out the whole "wish I could have seen it too" or whatever....
It also sounds like she's DBing
I agree with Soxfan ... my H does that a lot; taking things practically out of my hands when I am still trying to figure whatever out. He thinks he is helping me (and he is), but he is also not allowing me the time when I want to hand it over. So, no helping out with the hobby except to listen and validate.
It does kinda sound like she's DB'ing. She is trying to GAL of her own, just like you got one (the one you were worried you may have to give up). Don't now assume she doesn't want you, Future.
My first reaction to this is one of compassion.
My second reaction is to walk away.
holy flip flopping mcfly.
I dont like fishing. I dont even particularily like the taste of fish; but they do make for good analogies:
When many Muskie fishermen think of trolling, they think of Autumn presentations. However, what they are actually doing are missing out on one of the most effective ways to consistently catch large Muskies throughout the year. Many of the Muskie fishermen I know have caught their largest fish while trolling. In fact, the majority of world record fish listed in the record books were caught trolling.
The more water you cover, the better your chances of putting fish in the boat, and the best way to cover water is trolling. Also you can put your lure in areas it is impossible to by casting.
This sounded like a "I need some space" email. It still feels like she wanted you to know that she still is interested in pursuing the new R you and her are building.
I agree, but it also has a bit of "backup plan" feel to it.
What would make you feel wanted? By your W or anyone else. You have come through this awful time brilliantly, made a life for yourself, worked on being your own man ... I am truly amazed at how well you have done. Yet you still need to feel that sense of being wanted. Is it a kind of validation of sorts?
My statement about feeling unwanted came out wrong. What I meant was I was tired of feeling unwanted by HER, not in general. I've got a lot of people in my life who are very pro-future, and who make me feel very wanted. I had gotten back into the dating world, but decided it was best to stop while my W and I were getting to know each other again. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I really can't have my attention in two places at once. I've never been able to. If I'm dating one women, I see where that goes before I date another.
I think it's healthy for her to want a hobby that is hers.
Ask her "how can I help you with that?" Let her ask you to join her in it. Maybe pick up a magazine about hiking and give it to her, "I saw this and thought of you." Be her partner, stand at her side on this.
That was my first reaction. I do care about her, and I want her to be happy. And most of all, I AGREE with everything she said!
however, I disagree on the part of asking how can I help and giving her hiking stuff. (Sorry Coach)
I agree with Soxfan2008. I need to support her from a distance. This is something she needs to do on her own. She'll seek me out for what she wants from me. I should just not ALWAYS be available, and I won't be.
It also sounds like she's DBing
She is, finally, and it's great to see.
My first reaction to this is one of compassion.
My second reaction is to walk away.
holy flip flopping mcfly.
I know, I know, but that's who I am. I just got an eval done at work, which showed one my greatest strengths is to approach problems from multiple sides. Both a blessing and a curse!
I come here to get guidance and support about the different ways I see things.
So when I say no thanks to invites in the upcoming weeks, please know this is why
Interesting that her mindset is such that she is already the one that is "getting" the invites and gets the chance to say yes or no......this proves that her mind sees you as the pursuing person and her the one who is pursued. Chasing and pursuing a person who feels this way doesn't work.
How kind of her to tell you that when you ask her to do something she is warning you she is going to say no.
How would it sound if it was YOU saying to her..
"If I don't ask you to do anything for the next six months or so, don't be offended. I just want to go out and take up another hobby and go sing in the bars for a few months to see how I am going to feel about you. I will let you know in six months or so. Thanks for being there for me."??????
That mindset tells you all you need to know..
You are misreading her..
Women don't make it complicated when they WANT to be with you.... When a woman WANTS to be with you nothing will stop them.
So, you can make excuses for her all you want. She just doesn't feel it for you again.. You went too much too fast..
She chased you in the beginning of your relationship and then you had her chasing you again when you let go and she thought you had someone else. You then started chasing her again. YOU are talking too much about the relationship. I don't care whether you are doing it in a vague way or not. It is feminine to talk too much about the relationship. SHE even told you it drained her. YOU should have stopped the relationship talk on the date long before you did. When a relationship talk drains a woman, THAT means that it isn't a good talk.
She is they type that needs to feel she is the one chasing. She will never admit to this, but it IS the reality. She needed to chase you in the beginning, she chase the OM around the world, she then chased you to get you back, she now has you (her words of "if I say no to invitations" shows it is you asking and chasing in her mind) and NOW she wants to chase another hobby..(or is it something else)
She doesn't FEEL it for you. When a woman likes you in the right way she still has her hobby AND you. She is just blowing you off because you have been nice to her and she doesn't want to hurt you and she wants to see if you will go along with this new charade. If you do, then it will be something else.
Don't be a fool.
I concur. Continue to GAL, B mysterious and NOT always available. Be spontaneous and unpredictable. In fact. Use the time to find your own hobbies and make NEW friends.
Future,
I think you're on the right path. How many times do we need to tell people here that they need to find happiness from within themselves? All the time. You, yourself recognize this need and it is good.
I'm glad you didn't react to her email and took a step back to evaluate and respond. You have done the work on yourself. She ran away into fantasy-land thinking that OM would solve all her problems. She has found out it's not possible. When the bubble burst she sees a bright/new "future." A man who knows what he wants and will go out and get it. She doesn't know who SHE is or what she wants or needs. You have a new life and she doesn't quite know how she can fit into that.
You know that she has been "running" and hiding most of her life. She drew her validation from others. Her clarity of this means she wants to find other activities to get it from. If they can help her, that is good. Give her that chance. Don't be resentful about it. Find indirect ways to give her that validation wherever possible.
You can only pull the "loss" card out so many times. This is not one of those times. I don't think you need to say anything about the "friends talk" either. As for yourself, you said it, "time to get busy again." But this time don't be too mysterious. Be open about it. It's that happy, self-confident man that drew her back. Keep on being him -- FOR YOURSELF. Resuming dating right now is not an option. It will be seen as retaliation and will prompt her to do the same. Just be cool, relax and go with the flow. If she steps out and wants to date others... then you know what you need to do. Until then, give her the benefit of the doubt.
gucci, I've lived this whole thing, and what you're saying rings very true.
I'm trying not to make excuses for her. The problem is, she's right. She doesn't have a life. Her life was pursuing me, then when she got me, her life was pursuing getting kids. When she got those, she pursued all sorts of other things, never finding anything that made her happy, and started increasingly blaming me and our M for her unhappiness. She finally found her great OM, and became consumed by thinking he was the answer to all her problems. Now that that fell apart, she's back to searching.
I agree, she pursued me again when she thought she lost me. I did make it pretty easy for her, but I didn't say yes to everything she asked, and I kept her in the dark for quite a while regarding my other dating activities. She is acting like she's one who has the right to say yes or no, but she's asked me to do things three times more often than me asking her. Should I have never asked her to do anything? She even asked me for that date. I can't reconcile my M while withholding some "secret" about whether I have another woman on the side. I could have gotten her more and more riled up if I had played harder to get, but eventually I would have had to commit myself to reconciling our M, and I'd be right here anyway.
It's unworkable. She needs to fix her. You are right. She doesn't FEEL it for me. The only time she does is when she's trying to pursue me, making me out as her great savior. I don't want her to FEEL it for me that way. She has never in her life been able to FEEL it for a man unless he was her current obsession. I don't want to worry that my woman's feelings for me are so fragile as to disintegrate when I show some interest in her, like asking her to do things with me, or saying yes when she asks me. That's no way to live.
I agree with you I need to step way back while she does whatever she's doing, and continue living my life and maybe even go back to dating other women. Maybe I'll find one that doesn't drive me crazy!
Maybe I'll find one that doesn't drive me crazy!
good luck. call me if she has a twin sister.
Hi Future,
Have spent a few minutes getting caught up on your life. Maybe I can help shed light on a woman's perspective...and maybe I've got a little bit in common with your wife after all!
I just got back from taking my 2 kids to Spain--we went for two weeks and it was WONDERFUL. I lived in Spain for a few years in my 20's. Back then, I was so free and easy and fun. Then I got married and had kids, and I spent all of my time focused on them and not me. I lost my 'self' in being a wife and mother and working. While I loved my H and kids, I felt like I had disappeared.
Now I'm seeing someone new and am having a hard time balancing "me". I don't want to lose myself again. I want to see him once a week or so. Not every day. I don't even want to talk to him every day. And he is a very, very nice, enjoyable person. I disagree that a woman wants to be with a man all the time if she likes/loves him. Not a woman in her 40's or 50's who has had very, very little time to herself outside of being a wife, a mom and a professional. So, maybe your W just needs some space to get herself back--and to get some hobbies and spend time with her friends.
I was dreading talking to my new guy yesterday because I was going to have to tell him I don't want to see him again until this weekend. Instead, I want to have dinner with a friend tomorrow (my kid-free night) and don't want to feel bad or guilty that he's waiting around for me. Anyway, I was starting to feel dragged down with the "responsibility" of being someone's partner and was thinking that this just isn't going to work for me right now. To my pleasant surprise, when I called him this morning he was very upbeat and friendly and told me about the plans he had for the next several days and asked me what my plans were and we found a time when we could both see eachother. So, now I'm really looking forward to seeing him again. I don't feel like he's waiting around for me to call the shots or to fill in his empty spaces.
Maybe that could be a different perspective on your W. DON'T wait around for her but if you've both got some time and want to do something, be open to it...
Actually Musclegal,
It is Future who you have a little bit in common with more than his wife.. For one thing, your were both the BS. Your spouses were both the WS.
He has spent all HIS time focused on his wife and not him. She has been focused on herself for quite some time now. It is Future that should be thinking like you are and "not wanting to lose himself now". NOT his wife.
So maybe it is FUTURE that needs some space to get himself back and to get some hobbies and spend time with friends... Like what you are saying. IF he is observing correctly then he would be observing that both you and his wife are wanting space
which proves that the one wanting space is the one getting pursued.
It is NOT a good sign for the new man you are seeing when you are saying you are "dreading" him calling... I wouldn't want to be with any woman if I knew she had said something like that about me. I don't want any woman dreading my call. It would tell me all I need to know. She doesn't like me enough.
I have never dreaded a call from a woman UNLESS I didn't have the right feelings for her. Never.
When the feelings are right you don't dread a call from the one you like. ESPECIALLY YOUR SPOUSE. Tis isn't just some new girl he is just starting to see. She isn't being honest. There is something else going on.
Hi Gucci, interesting thoughts and you're right about a lot of them. I still think, though, that sometimes we want love to be all encompassing, to take us over, that kind of falling sensation that turns out doesn't last forever. Then when its gone, we don't really know what to do.
I have several Indian friends with arranged marriages--their perspective is so different. It seems they don't fall in love, they "grow" in love.
My dread for my BF is that I was going to call him to say that I had some other plans during the week with friends, and I thought that would make him feel bad. I felt that I SHOULD want to spend every free minute with him. But in my marriage, that's what I did--I cut out friends and hobbies and ended up feeling lost. I think we still need to hold on to those things, even in a relationship. And Future and his wife and all of us need to nuture that part of ourselves without it being threatening. I think marriages would be more sustainable over the long haul if people did that instead of becomming so identified as a "couple". So, that's what I was trying to say, I guess.
Is anything ever different? One person is codependent. One person leaves other chases and finally realizes that it is not working. They realize they need to work on improving thereselves. Do they ever work it out and fix anything? I got divorced. Did the DBing thing. Got my wife back. And then we broke up again with the same problems years later. No, changes can only go so far. People change as they age. Are really the two people breaking up in all these posts just not capable of living a life with each other even though they want to? Negative thoughts I know. I was just wondering.
So when I say no thanks to invites in the upcoming weeks, please know this is why
Interesting that her mindset is such that she is already the one that is "getting" the invites and gets the chance to say yes or no......this proves that her mind sees you as the pursuing person and her the one who is pursued. Chasing and pursuing a person who feels this way doesn't work.
How kind of her to tell you that when you ask her to do something she is warning you she is going to say no.
How would it sound if it was YOU saying to her..
"If I don't ask you to do anything for the next six months or so, don't be offended. I just want to go out and take up another hobby and go sing in the bars for a few months to see how I am going to feel about you. I will let you know in six months or so. Thanks for being there for me."??????
That mindset tells you all you need to know..
You are misreading her..
Women don't make it complicated when they WANT to be with you.... When a woman WANTS to be with you nothing will stop them.
So, you can make excuses for her all you want. She just doesn't feel it for you again.. You went too much too fast..
She chased you in the beginning of your relationship and then you had her chasing you again when you let go and she thought you had someone else. You then started chasing her again. YOU are talking too much about the relationship. I don't care whether you are doing it in a vague way or not. It is feminine to talk too much about the relationship. SHE even told you it drained her. YOU should have stopped the relationship talk on the date long before you did. When a relationship talk drains a woman, THAT means that it isn't a good talk.
She is they type that needs to feel she is the one chasing. She will never admit to this, but it IS the reality. She needed to chase you in the beginning, she chase the OM around the world, she then chased you to get you back, she now has you (her words of "if I say no to invitations" shows it is you asking and chasing in her mind) and NOW she wants to chase another hobby..(or is it something else)
She doesn't FEEL it for you. When a woman likes you in the right way she still has her hobby AND you. She is just blowing you off because you have been nice to her and she doesn't want to hurt you and she wants to see if you will go along with this new charade. If you do, then it will be something else.
Don't be a fool.
Just now catching up, Future, after being sick as a dog yesterday. I agree with Gucci's assessment, fwiw, and I've followed your sitch as you know from the beginning.
There are ways to honor your wife's request for "space" while not going all pursuing/needy/grabby on her. It's going to take a deft touch for you to reply, but I think you have it in you, judgment from your current mindset.
Puppy
Musclegal,
You are right in that we should keep with our hobbies, friends and other interests when in a relationship... Very true..
However, what I want to get across to him here is that it should have been FUTURE backing off from his wife by doing and saying these types of things to her and not her doing it to him.
She is backing off... Which MEANS in reality that he has been pursuing too much. People don't back off when you aren't pursuing. It should be HIM backing off from her...
SHE HAD AN AFFAIR and very smartly got him to absolve her of any responsibility when she told him before they got back together that she didn't want him to hold it against her. Of course he fell for that ridiculous statement and now she again has the upper hand. She is basically telling him.. "I had an affair and if you hold it against me in any way shape or form then I am not getting back with you."
How is that for keeping HIM still in check huh?
And his instant reaction.."Oh no, I won't hold it against you, I already forgave you"..
He should have said something like this..
"Well, I am not sure how I feel right now about even getting back together. You are right in that I might hold it against you, so I need some time to think about whether I can really do that or not. I certainly don't want to hold it against you, but I have to be honest and tell you that I lost trust in you over this. And I have realized that I want to be with a woman I can trust. How am I to know that it wouldn't happen again? I think for now let's just take it one day at a time. Who knows maybe we will make better friends than lovers"
He gives her the same thing she is giving him.. Which is NOTHING.
Big difference...
...I want to see him once a week or so. Not every day. I don't even want to talk to him every day. And he is a very, very nice, enjoyable person. I disagree that a woman wants to be with a man all the time if she likes/loves him. Not a woman in her 40's or 50's who has had very, very little time to herself outside of being a wife, a mom and a professional. So, maybe your W just needs some space to get herself back--and to get some hobbies and spend time with her friends.
I was dreading talking to my new guy yesterday because I was going to have to tell him I don't want to see him again until this weekend. Instead, I want to have dinner with a friend tomorrow (my kid-free night) and don't want to feel bad or guilty that he's waiting around for me. Anyway, I was starting to feel dragged down with the "responsibility" of being someone's partner and was thinking that this just isn't going to work for me right now. To my pleasant surprise, when I called him this morning he was very upbeat and friendly and told me about the plans he had for the next several days and asked me what my plans were and we found a time when we could both see eachother. So, now I'm really looking forward to seeing him again. I don't feel like he's waiting around for me to call the shots or to fill in his empty spaces.
Maybe that could be a different perspective on your W. DON'T wait around for her but if you've both got some time and want to do something, be open to it...
I'll just come out and say it,
he is a "nice guy",
and although he is very nice and "enjoyable",
you don't have that strong gut level attraction feeling towards him and that's why you don't feel like seeing him or talking to him everyday. Attraction, strong attraction is an emotional response, it isn't a logical response (ex. he is a nice man, good job, takes care of himself, well mannered, etc. so I should be attracted to him and be with him)
If you were really attracted to this "nice man", you wouldn't dread seeing him or talking to him.
This is an example of a woman who likes a guy but doesn't really "like like" him.
Friend category.
It's unworkable. She needs to fix her. You are right. She doesn't FEEL it for me.
The only time she does is when she's trying to pursue me, making me out as her great savior. I don't want her to FEEL it for me that way. She has never in her life been able to FEEL it for a man unless he was her current obsession. I don't want to worry that my woman's feelings for me are so fragile as to disintegrate when I show some interest in her, like asking her to do things with me, or saying yes when she asks me. That's no way to live.
I agree with you I need to step way back while she does whatever she's doing, and continue living my life and maybe even go back to dating other women. Maybe I'll find one that doesn't drive me crazy!
This is reality and yet so many people choose to fight reality.
She is happiest when she is pursuing a man.
Yet you don't want to let her chase you,
she enjoys those feelings, she derives a lot of personal satisfaction from having those feelings, she is emotionally driven, she's an emotional being, she lives for those feelings, they make her feel good but you don't like the fact that she has to feel that way about you?!
Do you want a man for a companion or a woman?
She's a woman.
She wants a man.
Be that man or let someone else be that man for her.
And guess what, you start dating again and remove yourself from the "easy to catch list" and guess what, she's going to start having those feelings again for you, I pretty much guarantee it.
This all makes perfect sense. Your wife sounds like and an attractive, intelligent, charismatic woman. I can understand to some extent why you are head over heels in love with her.
But you are only one aspect of her life. You can't expect to fill her every need and void. One cannot define their self by a relationship.
Does she "know herself." Is she trying to?
EXCELLENT. Her interactions with you can teach alot of people on this site a great deal of what they need to understand for themselves. Do you see how she is just not casting into the same spot? But searching for something. Something other than another person to define herself as?
I suggested to SOTO that he go for a hike. EXPLORE. He didn't understand the need to look at yourself and how you relate to the world around you from another perspective. Your writings about your wife suggests she does.
Although she is confusing you it is very clear what she is doing.
Just because she says that is what she is doing doen't mean it is a fact.
There are other possibilities..
She could be lying. Maybe the OM is a hiker and likes the outdoors....
She could be lying because she doen't have the right feelings.
She could be using this as an excuse so not to hurt him...
Remember... You can't just take what a wayward says as gospel.
They lie. They deceive. They throw smokescreens.. They justify..
We can't just accept that just because she says that is what she is now doing that it means it is a fact.
Suddenly "hiking" is her hobby of choice?????
There are other possibilities..
one fish two fish red fish blue fish
black fish blue fish old fish new fish
some are red and some are blue. some are old and some are new.
some are sad and some are glad. And some are very, very bad.
Why are they sad and glad and bad? I dont know. Go ask your dad.
Some are thin and some are fat. The fat one has a yellow hat.
From there to here, from here to there, funny things everywhere.
Here are some who like to run. They run for fun in the hot, hot sun
Oh me! Oh my!
Oh me! Oh my!
what alot of funny things go by.
Some have two feet and some have four.
Some have six feet and some have more.
Where do they come from?
I cant say.
But i bet they have come a long, long way.
We see them come.
We see them go.
Some are fast.
And some are slow.
Some are high.
And some are low
Not one of them is like another.
Don't as us why.
Go ask your mother.
There are other possibilities..
one fish two fish red fish blue fish
black fish blue fish old fish new fish
some are red and some are blue. some are old and some are new.
some are sad and some are glad. And some are very, very bad.
Why are they sad and glad and bad? I dont know. Go ask your dad.
Some are thin and some are fat. The fat one has a yellow hat.
From there to here, from here to there, funny things everywhere.
Here are some who like to run. They run for fun in the hot, hot sun
Oh me! Oh my!
Oh me! Oh my!
what alot of funny things go by.
Some have two feet and some have four.
Some have six feet and some have more.
Where do they come from?
I cant say.
But i bet they have come a long, long way.
We see them come.
We see them go.
Some are fast.
And some are slow.
Some are high.
And some are low
Not one of them is like another.
Don't as us why.
Go ask your mother.
McQueen is on a fish phase.
Didn't you share some tough news about your wife? How is she doing?
There are other possibilities..
one fish two fish red fish blue fish
black fish blue fish old fish new fish
some are red and some are blue. some are old and some are new.
some are sad and some are glad. And some are very, very bad.
Why are they sad and glad and bad? I dont know. Go ask your dad.
Some are thin and some are fat. The fat one has a yellow hat.
From there to here, from here to there, funny things everywhere.
Here are some who like to run. They run for fun in the hot, hot sun
Oh me! Oh my!
Oh me! Oh my!
what alot of funny things go by.
Some have two feet and some have four.
Some have six feet and some have more.
Where do they come from?
I cant say.
But i bet they have come a long, long way.
We see them come.
We see them go.
Some are fast.
And some are slow.
Some are high.
And some are low
Not one of them is like another.
Don't as us why.
Go ask your mother.
Sounds like fun.
...I want to see him once a week or so. Not every day. I don't even want to talk to him every day. And he is a very, very nice, enjoyable person. I disagree that a woman wants to be with a man all the time if she likes/loves him. Not a woman in her 40's or 50's who has had very, very little time to herself outside of being a wife, a mom and a professional. So, maybe your W just needs some space to get herself back--and to get some hobbies and spend time with her friends.
I was dreading talking to my new guy yesterday because I was going to have to tell him I don't want to see him again until this weekend. Instead, I want to have dinner with a friend tomorrow (my kid-free night) and don't want to feel bad or guilty that he's waiting around for me. Anyway, I was starting to feel dragged down with the "responsibility" of being someone's partner and was thinking that this just isn't going to work for me right now. To my pleasant surprise, when I called him this morning he was very upbeat and friendly and told me about the plans he had for the next several days and asked me what my plans were and we found a time when we could both see eachother. So, now I'm really looking forward to seeing him again. I don't feel like he's waiting around for me to call the shots or to fill in his empty spaces.
Maybe that could be a different perspective on your W. DON'T wait around for her but if you've both got some time and want to do something, be open to it...
I'll just come out and say it,
he is a "nice guy",
and although he is very nice and "enjoyable",
you don't have that strong gut level attraction feeling towards him and that's why you don't feel like seeing him or talking to him everyday. Attraction, strong attraction is an emotional response, it isn't a logical response (ex. he is a nice man, good job, takes care of himself, well mannered, etc. so I should be attracted to him and be with him)
If you were really attracted to this "nice man", you wouldn't dread seeing him or talking to him.
This is an example of a woman who likes a guy but doesn't really "like like" him.
Friend category.
She can friend category you because she went outside and played around and got hooked up. She might have fallen for someones "all that glitters is not gold" and got hooked on it. Alot of times it may not be you or whats missing, but that it is someone else.
The bottomline that sometimes takes years to understand is if someone doesn't love you let them go... Until their hearts are open for love nothing YOU do will convince them otherwise. Some are too screwed up from childhood or whatever to ever even understand what they really want. Those are the best to try to love
The bottomline that sometimes takes years to understand is if someone doesn't love you let them go... Until their hearts are open for love nothing YOU do will convince them otherwise. Some are too screwed up from childhood or whatever to ever even understand what they really want. Those are the best to try to love
Why? Is it because they won't allow it?
Everything is 'sometimes', or 'maybe', or 'okay'. But often when we hit the struggles of a marriage out of whack, or a relationship that's stagnating, or friendships that are shallow, we find we want to change to a different level of life experience, even if it's painful. The saying goes, "no pain, no gain."
I want to really LIVE my life. When Wii was taking time to talk to his daughter ... that was living his dad/daughter relationship. I applaud him.
But, tv calls. FB hollers. I feel, sometimes, like a robot living the routines of life.
Bleh!
Meant to also say, Future, you're living you life despite what your W is doing. I just love how you were able to sing in public, start dating (even though you stopped), find new friends .... gosh, I hope I can do that while I am going through my not-so-new issues.
Wanted to do a quick check-in. I'm absolutely swamped at work, so I haven't had chance to respond, but I have read and appreciated everyone's responses. My head is reeling...!
One thing of interest. My W is reading the book "Eat, Pray, Love" right now. If you're not familiar with it, go to Amazon and read a few reviews. NOT a DBing friendly book!
Why are they the best to try to love. I would think they would be the worst. Screwed up at childhood so they never know what they want. I don't get it but I am not professing to be knowledgeable about all this stuff.
Why are they the best to try to love. I would think they would be the worst. Screwed up at childhood so they never know what they want. I don't get it but I am not professing to be knowledgeable about all this stuff.
I apologize. I was being facetious.
I truly believe you can't love someone unless you love yourself. Which is the case for many people that had a poor childhood.
Just my .02
I've read the book and watched the interview of the author with Oprah. While it is an inspiring book about a woman searching for her soul, her passion, it is also a book, I thought, of someone needing to run away to do so. I don't think one gets away from depression, it follows you, and some exotic place isn't going to get rid of it. Maybe, cover it up a bit? (If I recall correctly, she suffered from it.)
I dunno, I liked the book, but when I reflected on it, I found it rather unlikely to have happened in this way ... she must've glamorized it a little to make the story more interesting. She was rather a boring guest on Oprah,(I'm not trying to be mean here, but she seemed quiet) and I just don't see the connect between her and the actress playing the part in the movie (I forget her name).
Yes, it is anti-db'ing.
Today W came over to drop off our daughter and wanted to talk. She said she's "figured out a few more things". She pulled me into private and we had the following conversation. Definitely against DBing, but it was time to clear the air. Last fall my current thread was titled "My W doesn't regret her A". Here we go:
W: "I don't think I'm going to be able to give you what you need."
Me: (without batting an eye) "Then let's get divorced."
W: "No, wait. I mean, you need something from me, and, I don't think I can give it to you. I've realized lately what you're waiting for from me. That's why I pulled back. I can't give that to you."
Me: "Then we have a problem."
W: (nods) "H, you know I love you, I always have. I know I hurt you."
Me: "It's not just that you hurt me. It was the disrespect."
W: (looks away and nods) "I know. I know. It was wrong it started before I moved out. That's all I can give you. I've said I was sorry about that many times over the last two years. Do you remember that?"
Me: "Not really." (She has given the standard wayward non-apology, nothing more)
W: "I thought I was very clear telling you how I regret that it started before I moved out."
Me: "Talk is cheap."
W: "H, I don't think I'll ever fully know what you went through."
Me: "I've never gotten the impression you truly understand what you did."
W: "There have been moments over the last two years when I felt it, I did, and it was horrible."
Me: "I'm going to tell you something, and you should really think about it." (I paused and consdiered whether I should say it, but I decided I needed to) "<common friend> had it easier than I did." (in reference to the husband of a couple we knew well who had three little kids when the wife died suddenly without warning)
W: (shocked) "You're still angry."
Me: "I do have some anger, but that's not where that's coming from."
W: "You wish I died instead."
Me: "That's not what I said. I said it would have been easier for me, not the kids, but for me."
W: "That's pretty harsh."
Me: "<common friend> only had to deal with the loss.
W: (looks down and nods)
Me: (softening and smiling) "Just hearing what you said a moment ago, that was good to hear."
W: (smiles) "I'm glad."
Me: "I've tried to show you I understand how I failed you, and how I hurt you too."
W: "You have, really well."
By now our daughter was pounding on the door. Mommy and Daddy aren't allowed to talk in private for more than a few minutes!
W: "Is a hug ok?" (she pulls in to hug me, and kiss me on the cheek)
Me: (I pull my head away) "Hugs are absolutely ok, but I'm done with the cheek kissing. It's all or nothing."
W: "I guess I'll opt for nothing for a while."
Me: (smiling) "Ok."
W: (we had a long hug, then she started walking away)
Me: "Have fun." (she was going to a car show)
W: "Thanks."
Before I get evicerated for more R talk, remember, she brought it up!
I knew I really laid some tough stuff out there, but she needed to hear it. I had to speak my peace. I felt so much better after getting that stuff on my chest. Earlier I had asked her if she wanted to come watch a movie with us later that evening, and she enthusiastically said yes, but a few hours later she called and declined. I said "I know, that was a tough conversation. We have a lot to sit on for a while." She said "Yeah." I hesitated, then said "W, I'm not sure what I need." She said "I know, you will though. You'll figure it out."
About an hour later, she called back and said "Can I change my mind?" I said "Sure." She said "What time?" She came over and we had a great time with the kids for a while. No more R talk.
What I want to tell her is "W, when you said you can't give me what I need, what I hear is that it was worth it. It was worth losing me, our marriage, and half the kids' childhood. Was it worth that?" If she avoids a direct answer, I'd want to say "I'm worried the only way you'll ever know the real answer to that question is for me to force you to live it. Is that what I have to do?"
Am I nuts? Am I asking too much? I can't see myself being able to live in our marriage with her holding onto the "rightness" of what she did.
Without reading most of the rest of your thread, I think you handled that surprisingly well. I don't think most people would have been able to do what you did as well as you did it.
I'm no expert on the DB side of things, and maybe someone will explain why what you did was a mistake, but it sounds like it worked pretty well to me. For one thing, if you're ever going to have a future together, she should expect the truth from you. She should know that you won't take joy in hurting her with unpleasant truths, but that you will speak them honestly.
FU,
No evisceration from me. I thought you actually handled it very well. I think "no R talks!" is one of those DBing things (like "180") that just gets casually tossed around so much, that it gets misunderstood and taken TOO far. It's not that you can't EVER have ANY -- I mean, by definition, you HAVE to, at some point, talk about the relationship. It's just that the betrayed spouse is not to pursue with a bunch of them, forever wanting to "talk it out," that's all.
I really loved how you handled the whole first part. This was the only part that made me cringe, just a smidge:
I said "I know, that was a tough conversation. We have a lot to sit on for a while." She said "Yeah." I hesitated, then said "W, I'm not sure what I need." She said "I know, you will though. You'll figure it out."
I would have preferred that you not INITIATE that. Let HER come back to YOU again, at which point you can take the first-person-plural out of it, and say something like "I'm not sure how I feel about things right now."
But overall, not bad at all, and I really liked how you drew a mini-boundary about the kiss on the cheek, and yet didn't go all pouty on her when she opted for "nothing." LOL
Nicely done.
Puppy
What I want to tell her is "W, when you said you can't give me what I need, what I hear is that it was worth it. It was worth losing me, our marriage, and half the kids' childhood. Was it worth that?" If she avoids a direct answer, I'd want to say "I'm worried the only way you'll ever know the real answer to that question is for me to force you to live it. Is that what I have to do?"
Am I nuts? Am I asking too much? I can't see myself being able to live in our marriage with her holding onto the "rightness" of what she did.
No evisceration from me either. You handled the R talk brilliantly ... pity about daughter pounding on the door because you should've asked her the above while you were in a R talk. It may be difficult to bring up now, but keep it in mind. It gives you some measure of control, re "Is that what I have to do?", while still trying to gauge her mindset. I think this is what all of us want to know from our WAS's ... was it worth the pain and agony the A caused, not just to the LBS, but to the children too. My D17 still doesn't like it if we have even a slight disagreement. I don't know what she's going to say when we tell her and the other children that the M is over, bar the legalities. My H did say it wasn't worth it, but as you said "talk is cheap", and in his case, there was no action to back it up, and I also got sick of the cheek kissing.
Keep it up ... you're doing exactly what I should've done 5 years ago.
W: "Is a hug ok?" (she pulls in to hug me, and kiss me on the cheek)
Me: (I pull my head away) "Hugs are absolutely ok, but I'm done with the cheek kissing. It's all or nothing."
W: "I guess I'll opt for nothing for a while."
Me: (smiling) "Ok."
W: (we had a long hug, then she started walking away)
Me: "Have fun." (she was going to a car show)
W: "Thanks."
. . .
About an hour later, she called back and said "Can I change my mind?" I said "Sure." She said "What time?" She came over and we had a great time with the kids for a while. No more R talk.
Here's going to be your challenge, Future, and again, I'm saying YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG -- handled it beautifully, in fact. But she is now likely going to see the above as her having succesfully "spun up" the Future "plates" on her little sticks for awhile longer. I guaran-damn-tee you, she came away from this with the following main thought:
"Future's not done with me yet. I still have a little while to decide if this is worth it or not."Food for thought.
Puppy
She definitely thinks she has the reins to this buggy. But you did set a boundary when your reserved the right to not be cheek kissed. (Gosh! I hate cheek kissing .... it's like being kissed by your dad or something. Blegh! So passionless! I don't need a French kiss every time my significant other leaves the room, but dammit, how about a decent peck on the lips.)
Rant over.
I do agree with Puppy that she seems to think that she has time to decide on reconciliation and all that that entails, or cutting things off. The pendulum swings. This is sounding like the beginning when you guys were being 'friends' and y'all had family time, etc. I am glad you have a separate life now, to balance this out.
W: "I don't think I'm going to be able to give you what you need."
Me: (without batting an eye) "Then let's get divorced."
W: "No, wait. I mean, you need something from me, and, I don't think I can give it to you. I've realized lately what you're waiting for from me. That's why I pulled back. I can't give that to you."
I thought she told you she pulled back because she needed to find a hobby of her own????
Also, OBSERVE her mindset. IMPORTANT.. She is telling you that she KNOWS you WANT something from her. This means that she doesn't veiw you as letting go. She feels PRESSURE.. When someone says I know you "WANT" something from me, it means they sense that you are the one pursuing or wanting something.
You have to KNOW how to reaad these things...
Future,
As long as you keep coming across to her like you are a poor poor me victim, she won't be able to feel what she needs to feel for you. Women don't normally fall for a man who they pity and feel sorry for. Every time you tell her how "hurt" you are or were hurt, is just taking you further from reconciling. You NEED to show her you are not only past the hurt, but past giving her a chance and time to decide whatever it is she wants to decide.
Also, you asked her over to watch a movie AFTER she had told you she was going to say no to your invitations. Your self esteem is at issue here. Why is your self esteem so low that you can't let this woman go? Don't you see that you are coming across as weak? It is NOT attractive to a woman for you tell her how "hurt" you are. I don't care if you feel like it felt good to get it off of your chest or not. She needs to see that not only are you over the hurt, but that you are over her and that she has gone too far. THAT is when you have your chance to see her remorse at it's best.
Mmm, Gucci Loafer does have a point, but when in a R talk one has to be honest, unless you just don't say anything. The R chat was initiated by your W, and it seems things were heading in the direction of reconciliation. So, one has to clear the air of some stuff.
She knows what you want ... perhaps it's time to go semi-dark again??? Give her the space and time to miss you. She does know that you have another life, single friends, that include women. I don't think you come across as a victim anymore. Perhaps there was a time, but not anymore.
I get the feeling/impression, and I may be wrong, that your W is finding it difficult to let you go (she obviously still has strong feelings for you), but she wants to be right about what she did and is having a hard time reconciling these two issues. Maybe, if she thinks she was wrong, then she won't be able to trust her own emotions, and that may be very important to her. That she trust herself, that is.
Just some stuff to think about.
I guaran-damn-tee you, she came away from this with the following main thought:
"Future's not done with me yet. I still have a little while to decide if this is worth it or not."
I know. I agree. The problem is, she's a master at being so nice, so supportive, so respectful (now), that she gives me no current excuse for walking away. That boundary about the cheek kissing was the beginning of me taking the stance of "No matter how nice you are, I'm not settling for less than what I want."
I really loved how you handled the whole first part. This was the only part that made me cringe, just a smidge:
I said "I know, that was a tough conversation. We have a lot to sit on for a while." She said "Yeah." I hesitated, then said "W, I'm not sure what I need." She said "I know, you will though. You'll figure it out."
I would have preferred that you not INITIATE that. Let HER come back to YOU again, at which point you can take the first-person-plural out of it, and say something like "I'm not sure how I feel about things right now."
But overall, not bad at all, and I really liked how you drew a mini-boundary about the kiss on the cheek, and yet didn't go all pouty on her when she opted for "nothing." LOL
Yeah, I realized after the fact that was a mistake. She was hesitating and lingering on the phone, so I felt like I should acknowledge our previous conversation.
Thanks for your support Puppy.
I thought she told you she pulled back because she needed to find a hobby of her own????
I omitted a small comment she made during our conversation. She said
W: "No, wait. I mean, you need something from me, and, I don't think I can give it to you. I've realized lately what you're waiting for from me. That's why I pulled back, I mean, along with that thing about finding something for myself."
So now she's just minimizing and blowing that off, although she does need to GAL, as part of her own process.
Also, OBSERVE her mindset. IMPORTANT.. She is telling you that she KNOWS you WANT something from her. This means that she doesn't veiw you as letting go. She feels PRESSURE.. When someone says I know you "WANT" something from me, it means they sense that you are the one pursuing or wanting something.
You have to KNOW how to reaad these things...
Future,
As long as you keep coming across to her like you are a poor poor me victim, she won't be able to feel what she needs to feel for you. Women don't normally fall for a man who they pity and feel sorry for. Every time you tell her how "hurt" you are or were hurt, is just taking you further from reconciling. You NEED to show her you are not only past the hurt, but past giving her a chance and time to decide whatever it is she wants to decide.
I don't necessarily see "letting her go" and "wanting something from her" as mutually exclusive. If we are to reconcile, I do want something from her, but I think I've made it clear to her she's free to go any time, and I'll be just fine. I don't think I'm coming off as a poor me victim, but rather someone who was wronged and is after a "reckoning" before we can move forward. She's the one who pursued me, she's the one who said she doesn't want a divorce. She's asked me over and over "What do you need from me?" I pretty much had convinced her that I was totally over everything. She liked that, no doubt, but it was resulting in her trying to "normalize" her A. During our date she playfully asked me if I had fun dating other women. I dodged it by saying "Now why do you want to know that?" She replied "If you want to know the details of my dating, you have to tell yours too." I said nothing in response, and I didn't show much reaction, but I knew what she was doing. She's trying to equate my dating with what she did, and it's BS. She has several times now casually referred to her extra-martial activity as "dating". I felt like it was a kind of test. If I had allowed her to equate the two, out of some sort of effort to smooth things over (i.e. nice guy), I would have failed the test.
You are right gucci, she does want to see from me that I've totally gotten over everything, so that she doesn't feel guilty. She wants a free pass for what she did.
I really have no intention on continually harping on this stuff. I just had to get it off my chest. No way I could continue forward with her holding it in any more.
You are effectively saying no marriage can be reconciled after an A unless the betrayed partner shows the wayward partner they're fine with everything. That sounds to me like lack of self respect.
I do agree that showing them you've moved on and are no longer interested in reconciliation drives their interest and "feelings" up, but that's different from showing that you're fine with what they did.
Also, you asked her over to watch a movie AFTER she had told you she was going to say no to your invitations. Your self esteem is at issue here. Why is your self esteem so low that you can't let this woman go? Don't you see that you are coming across as weak? It is NOT attractive to a woman for you tell her how "hurt" you are. I don't care if you feel like it felt good to get it off of your chest or not. She needs to see that not only are you over the hurt, but that you are over her and that she has gone too far. THAT is when you have your chance to see her remorse at it's best.
I didn't include everything from the day. She had already been in and out of the house a couple times picking up the kids, and had already done her hiking thing with our oldest daughter. The movie was one of her favorites and was sitting on the counter in the kitchen. Our son showed it to her and asked if she would watch it with us that night. I said that would be ok, and she said "Sure! Absolutely!" I didn't exactly put myself out there with an invitation for her to decline.
And I did let her go. She asked for me back. As Puppy and BeingMe have said, eventually we do need to talk about our R, and in particular, about what she did. I really don't want to dwell on it, I'd rather have fun with her, but I can't let her just normalize it away either.
I probably should be playing harder to get. I was "gone" for six months, including the holidays. I was hoping that was enough.
Had to pick up youngest daughter from W this afternoon. W looked sad. We had the following conversation:
W: "I'm sorry for how much I hurt you."
Me: "I'm sorry for hurting you too."
W: "Something really bad comes out in me with you. I don't know what it is. I'm going back to <our MC, who's also her IC>, I have to figure it out."
Me: "I haven't felt anything bad from you over the last couple months." (totally a dumb thing to say, because for one, it was disagreeing with her, and two, I didn't know what she meant by "bad")
W: "We'll talk about it."
Me: "Funny, I was thinking about calling <MC> today too."
W: "Really? Wow."
The vibe was very sad between us.
W: (reaches out and hugs me) "Even with all the ways you hurt me, you're a very good man."
Me: (acknowledging the ominous implications) "Amazing how much different things look now than a month ago."
W: "Yeah."
Me: "I just want you to know, I have felt what it was like for you in our marriage, or at least I think I have... and... it was really bad."
W: (nods)
Me: "Ok, gotta get going."
W walks away to get in her car. She had just picked up our daughter from a horse camp, and the back of her dark outfit was covered in cat and/or horse hair. She was going back to work, so I said "hold on", then I walked over and picked all the hair off her back and butt. We joked and laughed about it for a moment, then she said "Hope I look ok" and turned to get in her car. I said "You look great from here."
What is it with us that even after such a sad moment, possibly a marriage ending moment, that we can joke and have fun with each other?
The other thing I realized is, since we started this reconciliation process, we've had virtually no bad moments, no arguments, no tension. Just light hearted fun and flirting, good dates, and good times with the kids. I thought I was in a complete DBing groove. Yet here I am again facing likely divorce.
W seems to be acknowledging her part, and the need for her to do work on herself, but she's also acknowledging that our M will likely not survive.
At least she finally gave me a heartfelt apology.
One thing just occurred to me. I've resisted fully implementing the gucci and robx advice because I feel I owed it to her to own my part. Is it actually the case that she doesn't really care if I own my part? That she'd be far happier if I portrayed that I have nothing to apologize for, and just played hard to get? Am I that clueless?
No, I think you are reading a situation only you can read, and you followed your instincts. We are all sitting here at the other end of this virtual world, and can only go on what you reveal. I am sure there are many nuances, and extra things that you just can't express it all. In the end, one's gut feeling is all you got, and one can only hope it leads to a healed M, or some conclusion where you can find peace.
Thanks BeingMe. The biggest nuance that's hard to convey is the positive vibe between W and me. We smile and joke EVERY time we see each other. That's why it's so hard for me to take the hard line approach. Just doesn't fit. Some of the other situations here have a much more contentious atmosphere, leading to hard line recommendations. I think being playfully coy and hard to get is really the demeanor I should have embraced. I did it somewhat, but I made it too clear to her that she had me if she wanted me. I was trying to do as Coach ascribes here, and lead her back to our M and family.
I'm not sure what she meant about something "bad" coming out in her when she's with me. Does it mean she perceives me as pathetic? She sure doesn't act like it. I get nothing but compliments and respect from her. Does it mean she knows she hurt me but just doesn't care? I finally saw pain in her face today when she said she was sorry. First time I've seen it. I can't tell if she's trying to make amends as part of an amicable end to our M, or if she's trying to work through it all. I imagine my statement Sunday about it being easier on me if she had died had some impact. I wonder if she's now thinking there's no hope of repairing the damage she did.
She's trying to be honest with me. I give her credit for that. She could easily just lie to me and give me what she thinks I need, and really keep all her options open. She KKNOWS I'm pulling away big time, and she KNOWS I very well might throw in the towel. Part of me feels I should acknowledge her openness and honesty.
I forgot one interesting part of our conversation today. Before she said "I'm sorry for how much I hurt you", she said "I've realized something else today, but it's nothing that will affect our future." Given the ominous tone of our conversation, how could she say it wouldn't affect our future?
Once the wayward spouse enters this stage of painful self reflection, what is the betrayed spouse to do? Just wait it out? I was talking to a friend today, and she said "You've grown so much, and made it so far. W has done nothing, and is only now starting her real work."
You've already said what you have to do; you know it, you just don't really like it, and I don't blame you. You have to let her go again, which is hard because you were starting to think you hadn't lost her after all.
And maybe you haven't lost her for good, but it's impossible to know for sure right now. She's all over the map.
You will have to let her go. You will need to be open to dating . . . you don't have to go out and kill yourself trying to find a date every weekend, but if you're passing up dates you want to go on, you're waiting on her. Waiting on her is a problem.
It's OK to wish it could have worked out differently, but asking her "Do I have to let you go again? Is that what I have to do?" is a tacit acknowledgment that you do have to do it. Like a parent asking, "What do I have to do? Do I have to take the car keys away?"--by the time he has to ask that, the answer is invariably yes, and parents who ask these questions and then don't follow through only teach the kids that they can be handled.
(I'm writing in as authoritative a tone as everyone else here, but of course you should keep in mind that most of them know a lot more about separation and divorce than I do. Many of them are trying to explain their first-hand experiences to you, and I don't have any.)
Once the wayward spouse enters this stage of painful self reflection, what is the betrayed spouse to do? Just wait it out? I was talking to a friend today, and she said "You've grown so much, and made it so far. W has done nothing, and is only now starting her real work."
Your friend is right. I allowed my H back before he was ready (straight after he broke it off with OW, if that is true), and now, five years later, I have asked him for a separation, and possibly down the road, a D. I am done. Why would I do this after waiting so long, so patiently, for the changes I had hoped to see? Because they never happened, and I ran out of patience. He stayed the same way he was throughout our M ... emotionally disconnected, while I had done so much work that he acknowledged was amazing. While he put in as much as would convince me to stay and move to a new city (which I found out was closer to OW, but he denies that had anything to do with it) to make a new beginning, and then reverted back to his old self. I waited for that new beginning, and the only thing that changed in our M was our geographic position. And I was then left without my friends and family. And, I can't go back because, thankfully, my S and D love it here and have done very well. We also still have fun, chat on the phone, go out for dinner, drinks with friends, care for each other just like you and your wife. We are friends, and I finally have come to terms with that. I think that is all he wanted from me, but probably didn't know how to get that across. Because, as he says when asked about my positive traits, I'm fun to be around. Good to know.
I think it's good that your wife is hesitating. I wish my H had. I think he only wanted back in, so that he could get his kids to the new city, and they would only leave if I did. He denies it of course. And, I wanted to believe him because we have four wonderful children, and at that time 19 years of M behind us.
Please just give it lots of time. Make sure you see the real changes before making the commitment.
Sorry about the long story.
Thanks SillyOldBear. It's funny. Part of me does dread letting her go again, but I have to admit, I also remember how much fun I was having earlier this year, and the peace I found in myself. I haven't lost that. The thought of letting her go this time is nothing like the first time.
BeingMe, I think your story is very interesting, as a comparison to what my W is doing. I agree, it's good she's resisting jumping back into our M for it's security, for the kids, for the ease of it all. I'm glad she's trying to figure this stuff out.
Dropped off kids at W's house this morning, and we had another short talk. She wasn't nearly as sad, but is extremely conflicted. She's still talking about our future together, so she's not giving up, but she acknowledged how I might want to. She told me that my comment about it being easier had she died is really weighing on her, as I thought it would. It had the desired effect of knocking her out of her fantasy world, where she doesn't have to truly face what she did. I did offer her a little relief though. I said "Listen W, I have no desire to dwell on the past. If we want to move forward, we need to deal with what happened, then we can leave it behind." She had a sound of dread in her voice and said "If we want to have a future, we have to talk about it." She continued with a sound of relief "Or, if we're not going to have a future, we don't have to talk about it, we can just let it go." I replied "Yup, exactly." She said "I've realized something about myself, and I hate it, I hate that it's part of me".
Our son came into the room, so we stopped the R talk, and just chit chatted about the kids. Then I said I had to go to work, and we hugged goodbye.
I got into my car and spilled my coffee all over my lap. Ugh!
Future,
My aunt said today that my XH wants to get emotion from me. It doesn't matter what kind--sometimes its warm, sometimes its angry, sometimes its playful, but its clearly important to him to keep that emotional connection with me. So, he provokes me with all kinds of things until he gets it. Humor, flirtation, anger, whatever buttons he needs to push to feel some kind of emotional connection to me.
Future, think about your W and you. My question for you is whether you feel BETTER and HAPPIER and more yourself with that string to your wife or if you feel better without it.
I think that we all have to answer that question. I have realized that I feel better without it and need to respond without emotion wherever possible. For me, keeping the connection makes me feel sad and a huge sense of loss. Its confusing and conflicted. It makes me long for what I think could have been--but not for what was or is.
So, the question for you is: Did you feel better before the turn of events, when you were working on your own life, or do you feel better afterwards--where you are waiting to see what might develop? Go with which of those feels better. I couldn't take the limbo of the second approach and the feeling like I was being kept around in case XH wanted a Plan B. So, I did the right thing for me. But ask yourself those questions and see how you feel. If you feel better without the string, cut it. You've learned some good lessons and can apply them to a new relationship in the future. If you feel better with the connection, be honest about your feelings and expectations and then be patient and see what develops.
Musclegal,
Maybe it's just a guy thing, but I respectfully disagree. Your advice is loaded with the words "feel" and "feelings," and I do NOT think that is the best way to go about this critical stage.
Coach said this better than I could once, and so I saved it (the Title is mine, not his):
Coach’s “Go by your Values and Beliefs, not Your Feelings” philosophy:
Respond in a way that reflects your values and beliefs not your feelings. As a Coach and a former military officer I know lots of ways to change how you are feeling. Feelings are fleeting, can be manipulated, can be dysfunctional, situational and are a poor compass.
Prisons are full of people who went with their feelings. To be a great DBer you need to be able to think. Detach and look at the situation in 360 degrees. State your goals (which are consistent with your beliefs) and come up with a plan of action. If your actions work keep doing it, if not try something new. Open your mind and don't let fear hold you back from acting.
If you love your spouse and let them go. It's not lying to do that, even though you don't feel that is the best thing to do. Understand your feelings, know why you feel the way you do and take healthy productive action based on your goals.
You have a choice in how you handle things. You can choose the path of love, self-respect, healthy communication, forgiveness and responsibility for your self. Or you can choose to be a victim, make others responsible for your feelings and let things happen to you. "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Don't let your feelings define you. Let your actions which is a sign of your character. Handle it.
Cheers
Coach
Respectfully,
Puppy
musclegal, I totally get the "emotional connection" thing. If your XH can get emotional reaction from you, his anxiety about losing you is reduced, his options are still open, at least in his mind. I think our wayward spouses are not nearly so sure of themselves as they try to convey. They KNOW they're playing with fire, and could be facing a life of guilt, shame, and regret. As Puppy always says, they're trying to keep all those plates spinning!
I agree with Coach's philosophy. I failed to live by it last year. I wasn't strong enough to do it. I should have done what was RIGHT, and filed for D, rather than what I felt, which was hold onto to my W and M while she had abandoned me and it. I let her maintain that line of connection to me, and she used it to keep those plates spinning. By the time I finally got strong enough to do what I had to do, her A was nearly over. Did the pressure I put on hasten it's demise? I think so.
Now I find myself in a different situation. Nothing my W is doing right now is disrespectful to me. She has agreed not to date anyone else. She is conflicted, between wanting to save our M, and wanting to avoid the extreme pain of dealing with the consequences of her A. She says she needs time. She is being honest, and she is trying to face her demons. What else can I ask right now? I need to decide for myself if I'm willing to wait for her, and risk further pain. It's not so much a question of right and wrong any more, at least not externally.
Puppy and Coach's advice is spot on. Future, it is difficult in the beginning to handle what's happening. We know what is right, but faced with the loss of family (esp. where our children are concerned), we allow our feelings to be manipulated. You are strong now, and can handle anything. I, on the other hand, was pretty strong at the beginning. I was on the cusp of filing for SA and D, then my H found a chink in the armor; he begged me on the floor to go with to New City. At the time I thought it sincere, but now I wonder if he was begging for me, or for me and the children, or OW. Who knows; doesn't matter now. Anyway, my heart softened, and here we are, almost six years later.
I am going to go copy Coach's philosophy so that I never forget it again. Thanks for posting that, Puppy. It benefits everyone who goes onto Future's thread. I was also in the military; I know how feelings can be manipulated; I know about honour and doing the right thing (not that all military people are like that). Gosh! If you can handle being shouted at right in your face with no reaction, surely you can handle just about anything without bursting into tears.
Anyway, just musing here.
Just to add ....
I am glad, Future, that your W is taking the time and space to work on herself, and that you are giving it to her. She should be afraid, but if she can face those demons and beat them, what courage it will take to do have done so, and how proud you would be of her. My H never wanted to talk about what happened. He is an emotional coward in my eyes. Always hiding away from truths, pain, and not facing it and seeing that there is, in the end, nothing to fear but himself.
That is what your W has to fear ... herself. Her flawed self. The idea of a self that can do foolish things, can do great damage to others, while justifying it as being the "right thing to do" or "it felt good and made me happy". None of us are perfect (we all have to face our awful parts from time to time and either justify or rectify), but when certain things have been done such as having an A, then it should be put right before we can move on, IMHO.
Thanks BeingMe. Our weekend was another tumultuous one. I can see what folks mean when they say the real hard work begins once you decide to try to reconcile.
We've been pulling back from each other more and more, and I was seriously considering if I would be best served by walking away and moving on again. My W had the kids over the weekend, and she did call me Saturday and ask me to going bowling with them all that afternoon. We had a great time, and I was sad to see them go. W was acting strange though, and even asked right in front of the kids "So H, you have a big date tonight?" I had no idea where that was coming from. The kids were right there though, so I ignored it.
Sunday morning I was increasingly concerned that her distance and that bizzare question might possibly indicate that she has been in contact with OM. I am reluctant to snoop, but I did look at her FB page. I am not FB friends with her, but she does not hide her friend list, and sure enough, OM was still on it. Hit me hard, and I decided right then that we needed to stop this crap and either be honest with each other or get divorced. I drove to her house and told her we needed to talk. She could see in my face I was serious. She said she was already late picking up our son, so she only had a minute. I looked right in the eye and asked her straight out.
Me: "Are you in contact with him?"
W: (very convincingly) "No! Not at all. You can check my phone, my email, anything you want. I haven't been in contact with him. My gmail account got hacked, remember I told you, and I sent a message to everyone in my address book about it, that's it, but he didn't reply."
Me: "He's still on your FB friend list."
W: "We didn't de-friend each other."
Me: "Why not?"
W: "Because it seemed like a hostile thing to do, and I didn't see a need to be hostile."
Me: (speechless)
W: "There was no need. I don't use FB for anything important. He hasn't posted on my page, and I haven't posted on his."
Me: "This isn't working for me."
W: "Are you making some sort of final decision?"
Me: "I think we're both confused as to where we are. What was up with that question yesterday about whether I had a date? Right in front of the kids too."
W: "I asked you that in front of the kids?"
Me: (nodding) "Yeah, you did."
W: "I did?"
Me: "Yeah, you did."
W: "I don't really remember that, but ok. Are you at a point where you want to stop this? Are we going to go back to just co-parenting, no friendship, nothing else?"
Me: "No, I'm not at that point yet."
W: "I am really late, I do need to go."
Me: "Ok, we'll talk later. I apologize for coming over unannounced."
She was pretty agitated, and took the opportunity to jab at me. She said "You did it once before, and I told you to never do it again, but apology accepted."
The vibe between us was VERY bad. We said a quick goodbye and both drove away.
I felt very bad the rest of the day, and any path to reconciliation appeared to be gone. Last night I was fighting the urge to call her or text her to continue our talk. I need some sort of resolution to this, and even if I was going to throw in the towel and walk away, I owed it to her to at least tell her I was doing that.
She beat me to it though. Around 9pm she called me. I could hear in her voice she wanted to talk, really talk. She said she was sad, said she felt like we were slipping away from each other, and right back to where we had been before. She said she doesn't want that, but she can't see any way for us to get past what she did. She said she can't give me what I need. She said I have every right to be angry, and to need what I need, but she just can't give it to me. I asked her what she thought I needed. She said "You feel I betrayed you, and I did. I know I hurt you. You need me to say it was wrong, and a mistake, but I can't. You need me to hate him with you, and I can't do that. What happened changed me, for the better, and I can't regret that. I can't regret loving him. I understand if that makes it impossible for you to be with me." She wasn't saying all this with finality though. Thinking back to Puppy's response to my post a couple months back, I could hear in her voice that she was searching for hope from me.
I said "Those are your feelings, and you can't deny them. If there's any hope for us though, you need to keep them inside you, out of view, at least for a while. You can't keep external reminders out here where I can see them." She said "I understand." I said "Like we talked about before, maybe someday there will be a safe place for us to put it, but not now, probably not for years." Then I said "I know I failed you in a way that made you long for what that gave you, so I can't just point the finger at you, I have to point at myself too. I know that."
We talked more about what I needed, how she treated me during our last months living together. She owned and apologized for how poorly she treated me. We talked about our past, how we've changed, what we like about each other, how unhappy we were before. Unlike what Puppy watches for in these situations, her unhappiness in our M was not "retroactive" after she met OM. She was terribly unhappy for years beforehand. I knew it, but I was incapable of truly understanding why, and she was incapable of conveying it to me. I was unhappy too, for my own reasons, but because of my demons, I didn't think I had any need to express it, or even the right to do so. I was just supposed to grin and bear it.
We concluded on a very positive note, and said we'd continue the talk the next day.
These are the R talks that need to happen for my M to have any hope. We're no where near through it yet, and I think it's going to get worse yet before it really gets better.
You need me to say it was wrong, and a mistake, but I can't. You need me to hate him with you, and I can't do that.
I think most of us BSs can live with the second half of that, understanding that it's going to take a long, long time for this to happen, if it is ever going to happen.
It's the
FIRST half, however, that -- although it's very typical to adultery (Harley talks about this lack of remorse in his work) -- is nevertheless a dealbreaker for many.
Tough stuff, Future. I don't quite know what to tell you.
Puppy
She said she doesn't want that, but she can't see any way for us to get past what she did.
Defriending the OM and complete transparency would be a good start.
W: "Because it seemed like a hostile thing to do, and I didn't see a need to be hostile."
You know what is hostile to you, your M and your family? Her keeping ties with OM. Do not let her turn this on you. This has put your M on the rocks.
Right now it sounds not so good for you two, and she needs to step up to put things right. Tell her.
I know what you are going though all too well, and I wonder if this half-hearted reconcillation attempt that my STBXW is making is just about keeping me from moving on until she can find somebody else or something.
Future, I agree with Puppy that the first part would be tough to accept. Perhaps she was saying that she doesn't think it was a mistake because it "changed" her in ways she needed to grow in her life. Maybe she's not necessarily saying that the A wasn't wrong, just how it changed her? Right now these are her feelings, her emotions. She's still processing that time in her past too just as you are. That time means completely different things for you both right now.
From my observation it seems like you both pretty much agree and get along with every other issue in your sitch. It all seems to come back to the A. If you don't mind me making a suggestion, I think the two of you discussing the A on your own is not working right now. Perhaps you both could go to a MC appointment to discuss it. This might be getting to the point where only professional help might help the two of you deal with this and put it behind you both. It seems to me that when you both discuss the A things seems to fall apart. With the other positive things that you both have been able to work on it seems like this might be the final issue to resolve.
Maybe ask her if she would be willing to only discuss this issue in counseling at this time. Find the right counselor and let them help you guys get through this. You seem so close if not for this one issue. I understand it's a big issue but it seems like to only major thing keeping the two of you from completely reconciling.
I agree that she should remove OM from her FB. If she doens't call, text or email him then why not remove him from FB? How would that be any worse for this guy than her not communicating with him? I don't get that one.
Future, you guys seem so close. Don't give up now man. Good luck!
I think most of us BSs can live with the second half of that, understanding that it's going to take a long, long time for this to happen, if it is ever going to happen.
It's the FIRST half, however, that -- although it's very typical to adultery (Harley talks about this lack of remorse in his work) -- is nevertheless a dealbreaker for many.
Tough stuff, Future. I don't quite know what to tell you.
Puppy
Yes, it is. Thanks. Truthfully, I worry more about what it means to our future, rather than the past. If in some way she can convince me she's totally re-committed to our M, and is working on having a great R, the past will fade into history. I don't have any desire or need to hold onto past hurt, for its own sake.
I don't get that she cannot regret the path she took to make those positive changes in her. That she couldn't do it on her own. You did.
Okay, I'm not sure what you should do now. MC sounds like a good thing. But, until she can feel bad about ripping your family apart just to make herself feel better, by having an A, I just can't see where your next step should be. It opens up the possibility that she will do this again.
Are the positive changes in her noticeable? What changes is she talking about that makes her not sorry about loving this OM? Seriously, I don't get it.
Just some thoughts.
I think the next step is to say just that. That you cant move on until she shows true remorse for ripping apart the family. That sounds like a pretty good boundary to me.
Have you both declared your "NUTS"???
Defriending the OM and complete transparency would be a good start.
Yes, she will have to defriend OM. That's a no brainer. Is my W in denial that having OM on her friend list wasn't a detriment to our possible reconciliation? Wow!
You know what is hostile to you, your M and your family? Her keeping ties with OM. Do not let her turn this on you. This has put your M on the rocks.
Exactly. To say our M is on the rocks is an understatement!
Right now it sounds not so good for you two, and she needs to step up to put things right. Tell her.
I know what you are going though all too well, and I wonder if this half-hearted reconcillation attempt that my STBXW is making is just about keeping me from moving on until she can find somebody else or something.
I don't think my W is keeping me around while she looks for something else. Now that OM is (presumably) out of the picture, and she's off the A drug, she's feeling the effects of her decisions (shared time with kids, missing me, no money, no life, etc). She's being honest. Sunday she said "residual feelings" for OM are in the way of her committing to our reconciliation. Can't fault her for her honesty, but I also don't need to hang around and embrace her half hearted attempts at fixing things.
I'm still somewhat optimistic, but it's going to be a long road.
Future, I agree with Puppy that the first part would be tough to accept. Perhaps she was saying that she doesn't think it was a mistake because it "changed" her in ways she needed to grow in her life. Maybe she's not necessarily saying that the A wasn't wrong, just how it changed her? Right now these are her feelings, her emotions. She's still processing that time in her past too just as you are. That time means completely different things for you both right now.
From my observation it seems like you both pretty much agree and get along with every other issue in your sitch. It all seems to come back to the A. If you don't mind me making a suggestion, I think the two of you discussing the A on your own is not working right now. Perhaps you both could go to a MC appointment to discuss it. This might be getting to the point where only professional help might help the two of you deal with this and put it behind you both. It seems to me that when you both discuss the A things seems to fall apart. With the other positive things that you both have been able to work on it seems like this might be the final issue to resolve.
Maybe ask her if she would be willing to only discuss this issue in counseling at this time. Find the right counselor and let them help you guys get through this. You seem so close if not for this one issue. I understand it's a big issue but it seems like to only major thing keeping the two of you from completely reconciling.
I agree that she should remove OM from her FB. If she doens't call, text or email him then why not remove him from FB? How would that be any worse for this guy than her not communicating with him? I don't get that one.
Future, you guys seem so close. Don't give up now man. Good luck!
Yes, the A is the gigantic blue whale that sits between us. I am trying to show her a path back, but she still refuses to take it. She has this brutal emotional honesty, and she refuses to embrace our M while she knows she still has feelings for OM.
She is going back to see our MC, alone at first. We'll see what comes of that. Our MC isn't militantly pro-marriage, but she doesn't endorse what my W did, on the contrary, she was pretty harsh about it, but she knows what we here on the DB site know, fighting a wayward spouse only makes them run away faster. Now that my W is coming out of the fog, perhaps talking to our MC will help now.
There is a lot of good between my W and me. I'm not giving up yet, but as I said before, I may need to let her go again to see if she really wants to save our M.
I don't get that she cannot regret the path she took to make those positive changes in her. That she couldn't do it on her own. You did.
Okay, I'm not sure what you should do now. MC sounds like a good thing. But, until she can feel bad about ripping your family apart just to make herself feel better, by having an A, I just can't see where your next step should be. It opens up the possibility that she will do this again.
Are the positive changes in her noticeable? What changes is she talking about that makes her not sorry about loving this OM? Seriously, I don't get it.
Just some thoughts.
Hi BeingMe-
I agree 100%, and I have considered asking her that. She can see the positive changes in me, and yet she still clings to this notion that it was her A with OM that was pivotal in changing her life. In my opinion, her A has actually DELAYED her doing her real work.
Like I said in my last post, she is going back to see our MC. We'll see what comes of that.
Absolutely, unless I see real remorse and regret, how can I be sure she won't do it again? If she sees nothing wrong with what she did, what would stop her. These are the things I need to tell her.
Yes, she does have noticeable changes. She is much calmer, much kinder, much more patient. She has a light fun demeanor that was missing during much of our M. She hasn't told me herself, but I know from the brutal intel I saw that she gives OM credit for showing her how to love and be loved. She doesn't get that he had absolutely no shared responsibility with her, that his distance gave him the convenience of picking and choosing how he wanted to include her in his life, that when push came to shove he chose NOT to move here to be with her. In fact, after he told her he wasn't moving here, he tried to push her to move to him, even though it would have meant leaving her kids. I'm sure in her mind she still gives him all sorts of excuses, it was unfair to ask him to uproot his life, blah, blah, blah. I don't think it would do any good for me to point these things out. Why don't her friends do that? All they do is validate and support all her ridiculous decisions. Even our rocky reconciliation attempt, they were all on board with it, after she told them all sorts of vile exaggerated stories about how terrible our M was, how bad I was to live with, etc, etc. They seem to have no backbone whatsoever when it comes to calling her on BS. My friends have been BRUTALLY honest about what they think about my deicisions, and I thank them for it.
I think the next step is to say just that. That you cant move on until she shows true remorse for ripping apart the family. That sounds like a pretty good boundary to me.
Have you both declared your "NUTS"???
Are you referring to the book "Hold onto your NUTS?" I haven't read that one yet. I probably should.
Yes. Great book. Not just for men. Everyone should declare to their partner what their "NUTS" are so there is less confusion on what is "NEGOTIABLE" and what is OFF-LIMITS.
Keep it up. PMA
Just be aware that "brutal honesty" does not always equal truth. She certainly didn't 'fess up to the truth about being in an A before she left the house. Somewhat selective in her "brutal honesty" I would say.
She obviously picks her friends who are the type that would go along with whatever she wants. She has a manipulative personality, I would say. I could be wrong, of course. I don't want to put too much of a negative spin here. The changes she has made are awesome, but I doubt it had anything to do with OM. That part is only in her mind, but he doesn't sound like the inspiring type of guy.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Take care.
Just be aware that "brutal honesty" does not always equal truth. She certainly didn't 'fess up to the truth about being in an A before she left the house. Somewhat selective in her "brutal honesty" I would say.
She didn't admit to her A, but she seriously pulled away. I didn't know about the A, but I could tell something was seriously wrong. After she decided OM was "her man", she refused to touch me in any way. So even if she was being externally dishonest with me, her behavior betrayed the truth. Although it sucked for me, I use that experience to note how different she is with me now.
She obviously picks her friends who are the type that would go along with whatever she wants. She has a manipulative personality, I would say. I could be wrong, of course. I don't want to put too much of a negative spin here. The changes she has made are awesome, but I doubt it had anything to do with OM. That part is only in her mind, but he doesn't sound like the inspiring type of guy.
Yes, she does have some core manipulative tendancies, and I'll need to learn to manage them if we are to reconcile. My eyes are wide open now. Her friends are wimps. They look up to her like she's the queen of all R knowledge. What a joke.
The changes she made had more to do with our separation, just as mine have. Getting away from each other allowed our destructive cycle to be broken, and healing to begin. Simple as that.
Oh, OM gave her all sorts of validation. He sung her praises in every way, and validated all her reasons why she was so unhappy with me in our M. He joined her in her fantasies about travelling the world in some eternal erotic bliss. Reality quickly reared its head as she turned up the pressure, and he slinked away, giving her lines like "I can't move across the world, but if you ever need anything, I'm here for you." She gave him more rope, coming up with a ridiculous "five year plan" where she'd divorce me and get herself all set up in a nice home with the kids, and he'd work on his business and make money, looking forward to the wonderful future day when they could be together. She travelled to see him three times, and after each time they "broke up", only to have her throw herself at him again and keep it going toward a slow inevitable death. He never travelled here to see her. Doesn't sound very inspiring to me either.
Another update on my deteriorating situation. Is it deteriorating? Who knows?
W wanted to talk this morning. She was upbeat and in a good mood, so there was no feeling of doom and gloom.
She said she spoke with OM yesterday. She said when she ended things months ago she just stopped communicating with him, and didn't really decisively end it, which is why she didn't defriend him on FB. She said it would have seemed out of the blue and hostile for her to do it without having some sort of closure with him. She said he originally wanted to still be friends, but at the time she told him she didn't know if that was possible. This was all months ago before her and I reconnected. She said she told him yesterday she couldn't be friends with him. She said she would defriend him on FB, and I was free to look over her board to verify that she hadn't been communicating with him on there.
I told her from my point of view she seemed a lot more concerned with appearing hostile to him than doing damage to any chance we had. I said we've got a mountain to climb, and she didn't even want to get the big boulders out of the way. She got annoyed and said "H, it WAS a big boulder, now it's a tiny pebble." She admitted she was naive to not consider what it would mean to me to see him on FB, and that my reaction was understandable. I said "Maybe that's because you know how you feel about it, but I don't." She agreed, looked at me, and said "I know it's totally OVER."
She looked tired and exasperated. She said "H, I just want to have fun. So much of our time is spent dealing with all this crap. That first night we went out dancing, that was FUN, without anything else getting in the way, but ever since, it seems like we can't do anything without this coming in somewhere." I agreed with her and said I want to have fun too. I said I just wanted to get this stuff dealt with and off the table.
She said "H, I feel trapped and I don't like it. I'm going to talk it over with <MC> and see if I can figure out why, but in the mean time I don't want to feel like I'm doing something bad if I flirt with someone or spend some time with someone. I'm not looking to have sex with anyone, or get into anything serious, but I just want to be able to go out and have fun." I said "I've been feeling the same way, I'm tired of dealing with all this, and I wasn't sure what I thought about dating someone else." She said "How about make a deal that we date each other, and maybe other people too, as long as it's just fun and casual, and we each let the other know if anything starts turning serious with someone else?" I took a long pause, then said "After everything we've been through, I'm not entirely sure we can handle that." She is leaving today with the kids and going to her brother's place for a week, and she said "I'm going to be gone for a week. Think about it. Do what you want, go out, have fun, date if you want." I laughed and said "Oh, it's ok if I don't just sit here in the house and be miserable? Thanks!"
I said "The problem is, given our schedules, it is way easier to date other people than date each other." She nodded. I continued "It's a fundamental disadvantage we have with each other. The time we spend together with the kids doesn't seem to mean as much to you as it does to me, so I've been far more interested in getting time together with just us." She said "The time we have with the kids is great, but it's not enough. If we're in love with each other, it'll be even better. We'll each need to make sure we put in the effort to see each other, and arrange for child care." She smiled and said "Just so you know, when I asked you to come bowling with us Saturday, it wasn't just for the kids, I wanted to see you too."
She looked unsure, and said "Can we put all this stuff away for a while?" I said "Sure. At this point, that sounds great."
Gucci, if you're out there, you were exactly right about the dynamics at play in my sitch. All this crap has been destroying her attraction to me, and I don't even blame her. It sucks. It's been killing my attraction to her too! Unfortunately, for good or bad, I knew there was no way I could re-enter my R with her without addressing what happened. Talk about a giant elephant in the room. Funny thing is, she started the R talks way more than I did! Having it hang out there was causing her anxiety, and she tried to address it in a manner that minimized its importance. I needed to call her on that crap and tell her what it meant to me, otherwise it would have festered inside me and came out in all sorts of ugly ways. Maybe she didn't give me quite what I wanted, but I at least feel it's been exposed and addressed. Now the question is whether there's enough left between us to save.
I don't think all is lost. I now need to really adopt the gucci and robx attitude, and take her up on her offer. Get mysterious, be busy, date other women, show her I'm not waiting around for her. Clearly that was what attracted her back before. I know she doesn't want to go through the pain of divorce, and lose the security our M offers her. I know she doesn't want another woman in the kids' lives. I know we can have a ton of fun together. I know there is an undeniable bond between us that will cause her great pain to sever.
Question. When should I play the divorce card? Now? I considered telling her today that if we are going to date other people, then it's silly to still be married, and we need to proceed with the divorce.
Let her go. An open marriage won't work.
You know it. If she needs to fly away, find her some wind and don't worry about it.
Agree with TH. She wants her cake (dating others), and eat it (marital and financial security), too.
Screw that.
Puppy
btw:
She said she spoke with OM yesterday. She said when she ended things months ago she just stopped communicating with him, and didn't really decisively end it, which is why she didn't defriend him on FB. She said it would have seemed out of the blue and hostile for her to do it without having some sort of closure with him. She said he originally wanted to still be friends, but at the time she told him she didn't know if that was possible. This was all months ago before her and I reconnected. She said she told him yesterday she couldn't be friends with him. She said she would defriend him on FB, and I was free to look over her board to verify that she hadn't been communicating with him on there.
Puppy
Agreed, Cake eating.
All sounds suspicious and a lot like a script.
You need to GAL and dettach.
So basically she wants to have the emotional/financial security of a marriage while dating (casually of course), raising children part time, not having to go through the pain of an actual legal divorce and gets to talk to her affair partner with NO consequences? Not a bad gig if you can get it!
My H and I will always have a connection of some sort and I am sure we could have TONS of fun together but it doesn't mean he could be a good husband (his live in mistress might not like it, lol!).
Your W is some sort of genius if she can get you to agree to this set up!
You deserve better.
Future,
Just a quick note. I believe it's possible for your W to keep OM as a friend on FB without it showing up on your screen, so you wouldn't know if she actually de-friended him.
Sunny
Awesome. Thanks folks. That's why I post all this stuff here. Sometimes I am so close in I can't see it clearly.
Funny side note. I am 43 years old, and I just gave in yesterday and admitted I need reading glasses. I really can't see close in! LOL!
Yeah, I guess her withdrawal clock is reset to 00:00:00. I don't know what it means to her. Part of the reason I didn't ask for a "no contact" message before was because that seemed like contact in itself. There has to be one last contact to declare intent of no contact, doesn't there?
She's totally cake eating, and she is trying to manipulate this situation into exactly what she wants. I'm thinking back to Coach's philosophy, "do what's right, not what's easy, or what will keep the peace". What's right is to D her if this is what she wants.
I guess that's what's left for me to do. I should have done it last year.
She's totally cake eating, and she is trying to manipulate this situation into exactly what she wants. I'm thinking back to Coach's philosophy, "do what's right, not what's easy, or what will keep the peace".
Excellent advice. It really is perfect.
Sometimes what we want isn't the best thing, hard as it may seem.
She's totally cake eating, and she is trying to manipulate this situation into exactly what she wants. I'm thinking back to Coach's philosophy, "do what's right, not what's easy, or what will keep the peace".
Excellent advice. It really is perfect.
Sometimes what we want isn't the best thing, hard as it may seem. And this, this is a lesson that is the hardest to take to heart.
I agree with TH and Puppy that it is not realistic to date other people and each other too if you are still married. If you want to do that, get divorced and then date each other and other people. Don't let her have the cake. You say yourself it will cause her great pain to sever the relationship. That is YOUR leverage. Push it.
agree with TH and Puppy that it is not realistic to date other people and each other too
Unless you like lots of drama, women smashing your windows out of your car when they find out you are married or flakes you attract because you are married, jealousy, restraining orders, winding up on COPS or worse... Dateline.
You want to date other people? Fine, then let's get this divorce done, Baby. Gonna have me some fun. Smell ya later.
"Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!" - MLK Jr.
Haha! Dateline.
And I meant to say... Sometimes what we should do isn't the thing we WANT to do.
Gah!
Bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?
TH is killing me!
She's totally cake eating, and she is trying to manipulate this situation into exactly what she wants. I'm thinking back to Coach's philosophy, "do what's right, not what's easy, or what will keep the peace".
Excellent advice. It really is perfect.
Sometimes what we want isn't the best thing, hard as it may seem. And this, this is a lesson that is the hardest to take to heart.
My IC likened what I was going thru to "chemotherapy" it might kill the marriage or cure it. I (we) ran a marathon in 2007 (26.2 miles) during the training the longest run was 20 miles, everyone who ran a marathon told me I would be fine just trust in your training. Have faith in the process and don't worry about the outcome.
Greek and I are doing another one in Dec. Never would have thought this was possible two years ago. Believe that you can handle it.
"A man prepared has half fought the battle." - Don Quixote
Yeah, I don't think dating other people and M go together. Being separated is a start and you can perhaps start seeing someone while the D is in process. The intent should be there. You don't want to go getting some woman interested, starting to fall in love with you, and then your WAW says, "cut, time to stop dating other people." No fair to the singles out there. I suppose you could warn those you are dating, or make sure it is very casual (no more than 2 or 3 dates per gal).
I dunno, I don't see it working.
Your wife just asked you for an open marriage.
You want some open and honest and experienced advice? Either go for it or get out asap.
Its called Mid-Life-Crisis. MLC.
Its not for everyone. my only question to you is, why did you not ask her for a am general Hummer after she said that to you?
what she said,
H, I feel trapped and I don't like it. I'm going to talk it over with <MC> and see if I can figure out why, but in the mean time I don't want to feel like I'm doing something bad if I flirt with someone or spend some time with someone. I'm not looking to have sex with anyone, or get into anything serious, but I just want to be able to go out and have fun."
She said "How about make a deal that we date each other, and maybe other people too, as long as it's just fun and casual, and we each let the other know if anything starts turning serious with someone else?"
She said "H, I feel trapped and I don't like it. I'm going to talk it over with <MC> and see if I can figure out why, but in the mean time I don't want to feel like I'm doing something bad if I flirt with someone or spend some time with someone. I'm not looking to have sex with anyone, or get into anything serious, but I just want to be able to go out and have fun." I said "I've been feeling the same way, I'm tired of dealing with all this, and I wasn't sure what I thought about dating someone else." She said "How about make a deal that we date each other, and maybe other people too, as long as it's just fun and casual, and we each let the other know if anything starts turning serious with someone else?"
Question. When should I play the divorce card? Now? I considered telling her today that if we are going to date other people, then it's silly to still be married, and we need to proceed with the divorce.
That deal works for you but not for me unfortunately,
that's what I would have told her. If that's what she really wants, let her go, file for divorce and let her date other people and enjoy this freedom she seems to desperately want. You can't reason with her, not only has she rationalized this as a good thing for her to do but she puts a positive spin on it by saying that you should date to, that way you get out and meet new people and she doesn't have to feel guilty about her actions.
Thanks... but no thanks.
Future,
I agree with everything the others have said above, and want to go one step further.
Without being too dramatic, I would contend to you that this is one of those handful of DEFINING MOMENTS in your life. How you respond to this will say everything about your character, your morals, and how high of an integrity bar that you set for yourself.
Think this one over carefully, and then respond with absolute CLARITY to your wife. Every hour that goes by since she lobbed this amoral grenade into your lap, starts to define YOU and what you stand for.
Puppy
Thanks everyone. I totally agree. Her real motivations are clear now. She was sad and lonely after the breakup with OM, and when she lost me too, she put on the charm to get me back. Because of how I feel about our M, our kids, and her, I made it too easy for her. She didn't have to do any work, and as soon as I showed I expected something from her, she started backing away, slowly of course, so as to not provoke a negative reaction from me. Amazing as I read my posts over the last couple months. She is nowhere near ready or willing to truly reconcile.
That deal works for you but not for me unfortunately,
that's what I would have told her.
As might be painfully apparent in my postings, I am HORRIBLE at thinking on my feet, and she is a MASTER at manipulating conversations.
Without being too dramatic, I would contend to you that this is one of those handful of DEFINING MOMENTS in your life. How you respond to this will say everything about your character, your morals, and how high of an integrity bar that you set for yourself.
Think this one over carefully, and then respond with absolute CLARITY to your wife. Every hour that goes by since she lobbed this amoral grenade into your lap, starts to define YOU and what you stand for.
Yes Puppy, I feel that way too. Unfortunately, she dropped that bomb just before she left with the kids for a week. I don't want to respond over the phone. When she returns, I leave with the kids for a week of my own, unfortunately to go back home for my Grandmother's funeral. She was a great woman, and I should remember her when I respond to my W. I am planning on having essentially no contact with her while she's gone, then responding next week when she returns, just before I leave on my trip with the kids. Then she can stew on it, without even having the kids to lean on as an emotional crutch.
Here are ideas I've played with on how to respond:
"I've thought about what you said before you left. I've decided it won't work for me. I'm not willing to live in an open marriage while you date other men. From my point of view our reconciliation has failed, and I need to end this marriage. Will you join me at <mediator's> office to get our legal agreement wrapped up? No more anger or resentment, let's just see if we can work out the final details. We were almost there last year. I won't agree to anything less than 50/50 custody though, so if that's going to be an issue, we might as well not waste our time. The court will have to decide that one."
If she backpedals, and indicates that's not what she wants, I know myself, and I will feel compelled to offer her something. How should I handle this? I could just buy a little time and say "I'm leaving for a week, so obviously nothing is going to happen right now. We'll talk when I get back." Or should I just put up a wall and say "You've been right all along W, it just won't work between us. It's time to finally end this."
Future,
I'll have more detailed thoughts on your overall plan-of-attack later, but for now I wanted to say about this:
As might be painfully apparent in my postings, I am HORRIBLE at thinking on my feet, and she is a MASTER at manipulating conversations.
You need to learn the fine DB art of "I'm not really sure how I feel about that. I'll have to think about it, and get back to you."
or
"I'm not really sure HOW I feel anymore. I still have some more thinking to do."
etc.
It seems like a simple concept, but if you're like me -- a classic "Pleaser"/"Fixer" -- you always feel like you HAVE to have an answer, right then. YOU DO NOT. There's nothing wrong with deferring until a later date and time.
Puppy
What is brutally and shockingly apparent to me now is how my W responds to treatment. Something I never realized during my M, and is the root of so much of our difficulties. No matter what she SAYS, I know deep down she is terribly guilty over what she did. From December of last year to April of this year I finally said ENOUGH, and pushed her out of my life. I refused to offer her anything of myself. Minimal contact to handle the kids, that's it. I almost completely ignored her at all times. Quite rude in some cases.
And yet, how did she react? She came running back to me, and kissed me passionately when she saw the chance. She never mentions how I treated her, never uses it as fodder for resentment. Deep down I think she respected me for standing up for myself. Oh, she was p*ssed at first, and oscillated between attacking me (lawsuit), and tempting me, but when none of it worked, she respected me, and her attraction went up.
After I let her back in, I've been warm, charming, flirty, sexual, and even tried to find middle ground regarding the circumstances in our M that preceded her A. And what is result of that? She's distant, picking at the smallest little offenses, feels trapped, is trying to wiggle out of any obligation to me.
I spoke with her mother last night about this, and her mother believes W has such deep seated guilt inside her that she feels attraction to someone who makes her work for love and affection, and feels uncomfortable (unworthy?) when receiving seemingly unconditional love.
Is this someone I could ever have a truly fulfilling R with?
Is this someone I could ever have a truly fulfilling R with?
Great post Future,
After reading your thread and others like it, this is something I am beginning to wonder about myself.........
Is this someone I could ever have a truly fulfilling R with?
Yes.
Deep down I think she respected me for standing up for myself. Oh, she was p*ssed at first, and oscillated between attacking me (lawsuit), and tempting me, but when none of it worked, she respected me, and her attraction went up.
Yep you are unique just like all of us.
she feels attraction to someone who makes her work for love and affection, and feels uncomfortable (unworthy?) when receiving seemingly unconditional love.
She feels attracted to a man who knows he's deserving of her love and affection and won't just give his love away. She doesn't want to give her love to a man who she doesn't respect. Your view of unconditional love might not match hers, see things from her POV and the light bulb turns on.
She feels attracted to a man who knows he's deserving of her love and affection and won't just give his love away. She doesn't want to give her love to a man who she doesn't respect. Your view of unconditional love might not match hers, see things from her POV and the light bulb turns on.
Yup, as much as I hate it, I saw the opportunity to get my family back, and I was willing to offer my love on her terms. She did give quite a bit back, in terms of her time, attention, affection, and admiration, but she held back a real committment to me, because I didn't make my love dependent on it.
You make an awesome point about her POV. I will try to put myself in her shoes.
She said she doesn't want to try to reconcile until I am no longer angry over what happened. Is this reasonable?
She said she doesn't want to try to reconcile until I am no longer angry over what happened. Is this reasonable?
It is HER feelings, Future, so -- by definition -- they are reasonable.
But I know what you're saying. I think it's REASONABLE, for her to not want to remain married if she believes you are going to be forever angry about what she did, and lord it over her head every step of the way, YES, I think that's reasonable.
What YOU need to offer her is, a COMPETING VISION for the rest of your marriage. One where you honestly (and vulnerably) admit that YES, you are angry now, but that -- with some good MC/FT, preferably with someone who specializes in infidelity, you believe you two can not only get PAST this, but come out of it with a better marriage than ever before. That YOU have changed, and are working hard to become a better Future, and that you see HOPE if the two of you will commit to the PROCESS.
Validate her fears, FU. HEAR them. And own up to how angry you are right now, but then offer her up a hopeful future with Future, if she'll allow the two of you that chance.
But then shut up. I wouldn't "oversell" her on that.
I'd tell her all of that exactly ONCE . . . if it were me.
Puppy
I don't know if it's fear of me being forever angry about it that she has a problem with, at least not right now. She just said she doesn't want this stuff in her life, she doesn't want anger and hostility. She wants to have fun. Right now she doesn't appear to put a whole lot of value on me or our M. Her attitude is like "If I feel good with H, and if we're having a good time, then great, let's hang out. If I have to slog through all this crap, forget it, I'd rather leave it behind and have fun with someone else."
Not exactly a good foundation to build a reconciliation on.
Puppy, I've read much of your story. There seems to be many similarities. After your W's A, you guys did well for a while, but she then "drifted away" again, restless and unhappy. She seemed incapable of understanding why she was so restless, and committing to your M. She wanted to go out with her friends and "have fun". You were suspecting another A, and it got pretty bad again. It got to the point where you finally agreed to end your M. It wasn't until then that she grabbed hold of you for dear life. Reading my story, do you see similarities?
Yes, I do. And it was my "moving way too fast," and some of the subsequent problems that that is STILL causing, that undergirds my words of caution to you and others.
My fears of OM2 ultimately proved unfounded ($60 worth of reverse cellphone lookups later), and some MCing helped, but we still struggle with some of these same issues. My wife also has this immature streak to her, and I don't mean "immature" in some superficial, loves-to-look-at-FB kind of way. I mean a real, genuine "Peter Pan"/never-grew-up thing, where she went from living with her parents to getting married and living with me, and the shallow, self-centered, immature way she looks at relationships, finances, and even some of Life's other general concepts and challenges.
Yeah, I see a lot of similarities, right down to your "pleaser/fixer" personality (just like me!).
Puppy
Here are ideas I've played with on how to respond:
"I've thought about what you said before you left. I've decided it won't work for me. I'm not willing to live in an open marriage while you date other men. From my point of view our reconciliation has failed, and I need to end this marriage. Will you join me at <mediator's> office to get our legal agreement wrapped up? No more anger or resentment, let's just see if we can work out the final details. We were almost there last year. I won't agree to anything less than 50/50 custody though, so if that's going to be an issue, we might as well not waste our time. The court will have to decide that one."
A while back you sent her some note and it back fired on you. My advice to you back then was NOT to say anything and start dating. Well my fellow flip-flopper, THAT was handled to you on a silver platter. Why are you still trying to talk and reason with her? If you haven't noticed it doesnt work.
I'm a little disappointed nobody has pointed out the famous line:
I have heard many people say "I don't want to look back and say that I didn't try everything"
I am going to be straight with you. YOU havent tried everything. You havent been able to set her free. You havent really dated yet. Neither you nor your wife know what it is like to be on the other side of the fence you are standing on. The grass is greener. Or as Jimmy Pop put it, "The lap dance is better when the stripper is crying."
I'm getting ahead of myself.
I have read all her dialog you typed out and I can related to your wife. I wish I could explain it better to you than its just something that happens to some people sometime in their life. Or to quote what your wife is saying to you, "I feel trapped and I don't like it," "I just want to be able to go out and have fun," I want to hike.
Those are true, real feelings. They are confusing but at the same time they are exhilarating. My doctor says my hormone levels are normal for a person my age. Personally, I don't know where they came from or where they are going. I say don't try to reason with it or rationalize it because honestly for myself, I can't. I just want to know myself.
I think I can describe it to you. Have you ever had a desire to feel weightless? To just float? Like a bird gliding through the air or how a fish races through water as if there is no resistance? Freedom to express yourself and to learn.
Or maybe your wife is totally different and I did a terrible job trying to help you. Point is, quit spinning your wheels, man. Life is really really short.
You know, these situations ebb and flow over time, and I can't believe I've been on here for a year and half, with over 800 posts, the vast majority of which are on my own thread. There have been times when my sitch was fairly stagnant, and I came by now and again to journal, with no real pressing need for significant advice.
You folks here can tell I'm at a CRUCIAL juncture now, as can I, and you're all out in force trying to help. I just want to say I appreciate it.
I am going to be straight with you. YOU havent tried everything. You havent been able to set her free. You havent really dated yet. Neither you nor your wife know what it is like to be on the other side of the fence you are standing on.
You are DEAD ON right with this. There was a period around Feb-March of this year where I was ALMOST there, but not quite. Even the dating I did, the women I was with could tell I wasn't quite available. Drove my friends nuts. They would say "Why are you holding back?!" Because deep down I wanted my W and family back.
I have read all her dialog you typed out and I can related to your wife. I wish I could explain it better to you than its just something that happens to some people sometime in their life. Or to quote what your wife is saying to you, "I feel trapped and I don't like it," "I just want to be able to go out and have fun," I want to hike.
Those are true, real feelings. They are confusing but at the same time they are exhilarating. My doctor says my hormone levels are normal for a person my age. Personally, I don't know where they came from or where they are going. I say don't try to reason with it or rationalize it because honestly for myself, I can't. I just want to know myself.
I think I can describe it to you. Have you ever had a desire to feel weightless? To just float? Like a bird gliding through the air or how a fish races through water as if there is no resistance? Freedom to express yourself and to learn.
I am trying to understand, and I am trying to show her a path where she can have that and her family, but it seems like the more I try to accommodate her, the farther away she goes. Definitely the whole "pleaser/fixer" thing, as Puppy describes.
Here are ideas I've played with on how to respond:
"I've thought about what you said before you left. I've decided it won't work for me. I'm not willing to live in an open marriage while you date other men. From my point of view our reconciliation has failed, and I need to end this marriage. Will you join me at <mediator's> office to get our legal agreement wrapped up? No more anger or resentment, let's just see if we can work out the final details. We were almost there last year. I won't agree to anything less than 50/50 custody though, so if that's going to be an issue, we might as well not waste our time. The court will have to decide that one."
If she backpedals, and indicates that's not what she wants, I know myself, and I will feel compelled to offer her something. How should I handle this? I could just buy a little time and say "I'm leaving for a week, so obviously nothing is going to happen right now. We'll talk when I get back." Or should I just put up a wall and say "You've been right all along W, it just won't work between us. It's time to finally end this."
Ehhh. Lots of good meat in there, but tactically, it blows.
I really like your opening, but then I don't like it how you "assume the negative," at the point I've highlighted above. And then you've got it where, as you say, she DOESN'T want that, she's going to turn it back on you.
I would prefer something like:
"I've thought about what you said before you left. I've decided it won't work for me. I'm not willing to live in an open marriage while you date other men. If that's what you want, this isn't going to work, and we need to make arrangements with a mediator and we can work out the final details. We were almost there last year. I won't agree to anything less than 50/50 custody though, so if that's going to be an issue, we might as well not waste our time. The court will have to decide that one.
"I'd appreciate a quick answer on what you'd like to do -- no later than Monday. I'm sure neither one of us want to drag this thing out any further than we have to; Life is short."
Or similar.
Thoughts??
Puppy
and I am trying to show her a path where she can have that and her famil
Stop trying to teach her. Drop the rope. She has to find her own path back to you if she is going to find it, and by then you may not be available anymore.
I agree with TH --- there is nothing more irritating than a man trying to tell a woman how or what to feel. My H is constantly doing that, and I have started telling him that I will feel what I feel, and I don't need him to tell me any differently. It's one of the reasons I have finally decided to end our M of 24.5 years.
I also agree with Puppy on how to respond, by stating your feelings and what your boundaries are. That way, she knows exactly where she stands, and can make her decisions based on that. And, you know what you want and if she can't give it to you (and soon) then I think you know what you have to do.
Life is too short ... take it from me. Don't linger on this too long. She either wants you and the family life or not. Fun can be had within the family group, and fun without guilt. How long does she want to take deciding? I think you should give her your timetable and see where that goes.
Stop trying to teach her. Drop the rope. She has to find her own path back to you if she is going to find it, and by then you may not be available anymore.
Whoa. I am not trying to teach her. I'm showing her that I am willing to walk a path with her. Period. Her decision as to whether she walks it. It's like what Puppy says "Shine a light back to the M". I have never once in this whole sitch told her how to feel.
I agree with TH --- there is nothing more irritating than a man trying to tell a woman how or what to feel. My H is constantly doing that, and I have started telling him that I will feel what I feel, and I don't need him to tell me any differently. It's one of the reasons I have finally decided to end our M of 24.5 years.
How does your H feel about the end?
From my point of view, I'm sure my W thought I was telling her how to feel too, but that wasn't my intention. I was just trying to explain things to her from my perspective and try to make her feel better. I didn't get it that women don't want that. They wand validation and empathy. Does your H understand that?
One night, my W told us that her friend, who has been through countless jobs and has been fired many times, got a new job in W's field. Not the same position, but working for the department of corrections. Well, this friend was slated to make a higher wage than W and she was upset that after working in her job for 20 years, this new person was going to make more.
I asked her what the responsibilities for the jobs were, how they were different, what level of people were hired for these jobs? W's friend has a lot of HR and some managerial experience and was being hired to represent the state in hearings the union filed against the state. This takes someone with experience and a bit of procedural court knowledge.
For W's position, that she had for 20 years, they hire people pretty much right out of school for. Kind of an entry level position. I tried to explain that the requirements for the jobs were different, required different skills and thus demanded different pay rates.
Well, how do you suppose she responded to that? She was VERY upset and told me that I always make her feel bad about herself. That wasn't my intention. I told her that WE decided she could stay in that job and work part time so she could take care of our kids and that that was MORE important than her job. It was a good decision that we made for our family and that it shouldn't matter what her pay rate was. We did what we thought was best.
None of it mattered. She still didn't feel better.
See how I looked at it vs how she looked at it or maybe men vs women look at it. Does your H understand this?
I'd hate to see you throw away 25 years of M over this kind of communication issue.
You can kick me if you want, as this is probably WAY too simplistic.
Sorry for the hijack!
Good luck Future. Press forward with the D. This is no way to live a married life. See azrob's thread for proof!
That's good to read, Future. I jumped to the same conclusion, and I apologize.
I'd hate to continue a hijack of Future's thread, so you'd have to check out my thread, DanF. It's a long story, and I am not coming to this decision lightly. But, here is an example of what he does .... I am worried about my D30's health, and he says "don't worry". All I wanted was a validation and maybe some comfort (which he isn't awfully good at either). So, there you are, how silly to tell a mother not to worry about her daughter's health.
Back to Future. (Hey, almost the name of the movie ... hehehehe)
I would prefer something like:
"I've thought about what you said before you left. I've decided it won't work for me. I'm not willing to live in an open marriage while you date other men. If that's what you want, this isn't going to work, and we need to make arrangements with a mediator and we can work out the final details. We were almost there last year. I won't agree to anything less than 50/50 custody though, so if that's going to be an issue, we might as well not waste our time. The court will have to decide that one.
"I'd appreciate a quick answer on what you'd like to do -- no later than Monday. I'm sure neither one of us want to drag this thing out any further than we have to; Life is short."
Or similar.
she snorts and blows her diet pepsi out her nostrils and thinks I have read this before, hmmm.... where is the previous ultimatum he sent me. oh yeah. here it is.
previous ultimatum. ha ha ha. that's kinda funny.
W-
I've decided I want to get the separation agreement done. This year if at all possible. I'll scrape up the money for my half of the cost, and if you can't afford your half right now, I'll cover that too and you can pay me back.
I'll send a note to the mediator to find a time that works for all of us.
H
keep sending them notes future
I am trying to understand,
the obvious hasn't smacked you across the face yet?
there is already another guy in the picture
why else would you tell your spouse you are ok with them dating?
because you are getting it or expecting to get it soon.
you seem like a really great guy. wake up.
McQueen,
Are we going to play "I Told You So," or are we going to try to help the guy?
Puppy
i dont play i told you so.
Hmmm. Could've sworn you just did.
I'd hate to continue a hijack of Future's thread, so you'd have to check out my thread, DanF.
I can't find your thread Being...where is it?
It's ok. I deserve a bit of ribbing for my past wishy washy behavior. That message I sent back last year was a mistake in that I didn't entirely follow through on it, but it did change my whole demeanor toward my W, and was a big step in the right direction. Our whole dynamic pivoted that day. I took control of my life. I compelled her to go mediation, I was tough with her, I insisted we do Christmas completely separate, I refused to allow her to take the kids out of the country. When it came to finalizing our legal papers though, I knew I was still too angry to do it with a clear head, so I put it off for a few months, and while I did, she came around to me, and here we are.
I have detached significantly since then. This new message will not be delivered by e-mail, but rather face to face. It will not be laced with anger or resentment. Although the thought of divorce has been too much for me to bear in the past, even I have been slowly broken down. We've been physically separated for a year and a half. Our M has been emotionally non-existent for another year on top of that. If we can't move toward reconciliation, our M has to end. I need to move on.
I don't think I've posted here that a couple months ago, when our reconciliation was looking good, my W invited me to go to Disney World with her and the kids. She even bought a plane ticket for me. Last night she sent me a picture of her brother's new puppy, from my daughter. This morning she texted me, saying they were excited about going to the beach today, asking how I am, and how I feel about going to Disney. I responded a couple hours later with "Hi W, I'm good. Swamped this morning. Thanks for the message from D6 last night. Us going to Disney together isn't appropriate if we are dating other people. Enjoy the beach. Sounds great."
"Hi W, I'm good. Swamped this morning. Thanks for the message from D6 last night. Us going to Disney together isn't appropriate if we are dating other people. Enjoy the beach. Sounds great."
Excellent reply!
Although the thought of divorce has been too much for me to bear in the past, even I have been slowly broken down.
I hear you on this one. I'm there too.
I responded a couple hours later with "Hi W, I'm good. Swamped this morning. Thanks for the message from D6 last night. Us going to Disney together isn't appropriate if we are dating other people. Enjoy the beach. Sounds great."
I agree with pinhead, great reply. In that short reply you conveyed that you were busy GAL, you vaildated her, set a boundary, and you were cheerful. Nice job future.
Wanted to check in again and give you my support. The vets are giving you great advice.
Oh, and I know there are other men in the picture now. She told me about two of them. That was the whole point of her conversation the other morning. She realized she doesn't want to deal with this crap any more, she just wants to live, and she's gotten interest from a couple guys. She said doesn't see much happening, but she wants to take the opportunity to live with no obligation for a while, and if she chooses to spend time with someone else, she doesn't want to feel like she's doing something wrong. Hence the whole "let's date other people" proposal.
I'm torn. I myself even said a while back to her mother, while I was dating some other women, and appreciating the value it was giving me, I said "If W really wants to figure out what she wants in life, she shouldn't be all obsessed with OM on the other side of the world, she should date some other people here for a while." I actually get it. I agree with Gucci and others here, if she was FEELING it for me, she'd have no interest in dating others. A few months ago she was FEELING it for me, after she transferred the responsibility of being her savior from OM to me, but deep down she knows she can't do that any more. That's always how her FEELINGS for men manifested themselves, and she's trying to grow past that. I give her credit for trying to face that demon, but we obviously can't be married while she's doing it, if dating other men is part of it. So that'll be the sacrifice she'll need to make.
Time to grab that guitar and head out to the bar! Any pretty ladies there?
Classic cat and mouse again. Become the one that's getting away. Make her work for it this time. Tell her you're done and go dark. You can't force her to want YOU. YOU can make her WANT what she CANT have.
PMA
v1olin, I agree, and yes there are!
PMA_Baby, I've already been down that road. This time there is no need to make some grand statement about "being done". I'll just lay out my boundary, and if she chooses to date others, I won't be available to her. I might even do the gucci thing, and say "I'm sure we'll still see each other once in a while", but then never be available to her.
I admit I am wondering what her reaction to my text was. No response as of yet.
I might even do the gucci thing, and say "I'm sure we'll still see each other once in a while", but then never be available to her.
You don't even have tell her anything ... just go dark ... be busy .... except for the kids where you will always be available ... no invitations to WAW for fun family outings .... no flirting .... nothing,
nada. Be Mr. Ice, Mr. Seeya later, or not. I think she has to decide now, or never. Maybe she needs to see the other side of a D, what it's truly like, and maybe you and her may fall in love again later.
I'm hoping for that with my H 'cause we are not into each other now. Who knows?
Maybe she needs to see the other side of a D, what it's truly like, and maybe you and her may fall in love again later.
I'm hoping for that with my H 'cause we are not into each other now. Who knows?
BeingMe, that's an interesting comment. Even in your decision to end your M, there is still hope.
I'll return to how I was earlier this year, which is exactly as you describe. Back then I had a tinge of anger inside me that usually permeated. I'm hoping to avoid that this time, but it's very difficult when I see my kids being hurt by her actions.
I agree with pinhead, great reply. In that short reply you conveyed that you were busy GAL, you vaildated her, set a boundary, and you were cheerful. Nice job future.
Wanted to check in again and give you my support. The vets are giving you great advice.
Thanks mza8! Yeah, I'm very thankful for everyone's help and support here. I've followed your sitch as well. Tough road, for sure.
A new iPhone won't fill the hole in your heart.
pinhead-
Maybe not, but I do love my new iPhone 4!
I might even do the gucci thing, and say "I'm sure we'll still see each other once in a while", but then never be available to her.
is this a "gucci" thing or is it just what most folks do when they when they get sick of the BS?
is this a "gucci" thing or is it just what most folks do when they when they get sick of the BS?
I don't know. I've never had anyone else dish out so much BS to me before.
what songs you working on?
Good question! Now we're talking.
Amazing how this whole fiasco with my W has sidetracked me from the things that were making me happy. I haven't even picked up my guitar in weeks.
However, I have been listening to songs, and evaluating how well they'd fit my style. An old friend of mine here, who is a great country-ish lead player, has agreed to go on stage with me, so I've been concentrating on songs that would do well with an acoustic rhythm and electric lead. Been on a Bob Seger kick lately, and I've zeroed in on a tune called "Ship of Fools". It's off his "Night Moves" album.
If I've got my friend on stage with me, I'd also love to do "It's Five o'clock Somewhere" by Alan Jackson. It's a crowd pleaser, and a pretty simple tune. The vocals are right up my alley.
There's also a tune called "Time to Get a Gun" that was covered on the recent Miranda Lambert disc. It was originally done by Fred Eaglesmith. I practiced it for a while last winter, and would do well with an acoustic and electric.
I've pretty much given up on "3 am" by Matchbox Twenty. Just can't handle the vocals simulaneously with the guitar. Oh well.
However, I have been listening to songs, and evaluating how well they'd fit my style. An old friend of mine here, who is a great country-ish lead player, has agreed to go on stage with me, so I've been concentrating on songs that would do well with an acoustic rhythm and electric lead. Been on a Bob Seger kick lately, and I've zeroed in on a tune called "Ship of Fools". It's off his "Night Moves" album.
GREAT song. "Main Street" would also work well with acoustic rhythm and electric lead, and is a great song (always felt it was the better song than "Night Moves," actually). "Roll Me Away" is probably my favorite by him (and a great GAL song!), but it's piano-based, as are a lot of his other good ones.
Puppy
Yeah, I've been messing around with "Main Street" a little too. Best song on the album, IMO. Truthfully, I don't think I can put enough raw emotion into it to do it justice.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...
W has been cold as ice on the phone ever since I sent that text message to her, saying I'm not going to Disney with her and the kids. She returns from her trip tomorrow evening, then I'm leaving with the kids the next day to go home to Michigan for my Grandmother's funeral.
The question is, what to say to her? She was trying to be open and honest with me before she left. I have to give her credit for that at least. I need to do the same.
The question I wrestle with is how much to just lay out my position and that's it, or additionally offer a counterproposal. Laying my boundary is easy:
"W, I've thought about what you said before you left. It won't work for me. I can't continue to be married to you while you date other men. If that's what you choose to do, this isn't going to work, and we need to make arrangements to end our marriage. We almost had our agreement finalized last year, so I think we could have it done relatively quickly. No more anger or resentment. I won't agree to less than 50/50 custody though, so if that's going to be an issue, we might as well not waste our time, and just let the courts decide."
My counterproposal would go something like:
"I am willing to date you and do family things together, including going to Disney, and put off the legal stuff, provided you give up this notion of an open relationship, and make a real committment to reconciliation. I'm fine with putting the past aside for a while."
Either way, I'll finish with:
"Think about it while we're gone, and let me know when we get back (six days). I'm sure neither one of us wants to drag this out longer than we need to."
make a real committment to reconciliation
I know this is vague, and I do have a list of what constitutes a "real committment", but I wanted to keep my statement to her brief. If she's interested enough to ask, then I can go into further detail:
1. Give our reconciliation at least six months
2. No dating others
3. Weekly dates with each other
4. Go the MC together if either one wants to
5. Give each other time and space if requested
make a real committment to reconciliation
I know this is vague, and I do have a list of what constitutes a "real committment", but I wanted to keep my statement to her brief. If she's interested enough to ask, then I can go into further detail:
1. Give our reconciliation at least six months
2. No dating others
3. Weekly dates with each other
4. Go the MC together if either one wants to
5. Give each other time and space if requested
Future, I think your proposed "counteroffer" is a good one, although I'd ditch #5 ("space" to someone who's wayward just gets filtered as "I need space in which to date others, unencumbered.")
In fact, this is pretty much the same thing my wife countered with, and that I agreed to. After HER being the one, for over a year, that wanted to predicate a separation on us dating others, and me saying it was a "dealbreaker," suddenly she was HORRIFIED that I actually agreed to it! So she countered with "let's date each other, but only exclusively," which (I think, to our mistake) lasted only 2-3 weeks before we moved back in together.
Puppy
Puppy, I hear you about #5. I'll ditch it. I meant that we have to give each other the right to occassionally step back without fear that the other will assume the worst. Something like "I need some time to figure out what all this means, can you give me a few days before we talk again?" There has to be SOME amount of trust.
Maybe I'll hang a carrot in front of her and say:
5. We spend all holidays together as a family
She knows I get the kids this year on Christmas Eve and Christmas day until 2pm.
Very interesting what you said about your sitch and moving back in together too quickly. No fear of that in my case. We've got two established homes, and the decision to live together again will be a HUGE one.
I have not played my guitar in months. I played it for a woman a few nights ago and she had tears in her eyes. I don't think my wife ever had a response like that- not many do. Play that guitar Future, be happy.
Sounds great v1olin!
I'm sad and embarassed to say that I very rarely played my guitar for my W. She loved that I could play music, and yet I almost never did. In fact, the night we first kissed was the night I threw a party at my house and several other musicians and I had a jam session. Fun stuff.
As we got together, I slowly stopped playing, for her, or for me. I knew she loved it, and I chose not to do it. After we got married and had kids, I knew she hoped I'd play for our kids. She got me a book of children's music, and I never used it. I was too overworked, too stressed, and too tired all the time. Sucks.
These are the things I remember that temper my reaction to my WAW. She did have reason to slowly give up on me.
Life goes on. I will keep playing v1olin. You keep playing too!
"W, I've thought about what you said before you left. It won't work for me. I can't continue to be married to you while you date other men. If that's what you choose to do, this isn't going to work, and we need to make arrangements to end our marriage. We almost had our agreement finalized last year, so I think we could have it done relatively quickly. No more anger or resentment. I won't agree to less than 50/50 custody though, so if that's going to be an issue, we might as well not waste our time, and just let the courts decide."
My counterproposal would go something like:
"I am willing to date you and do family things together, including going to Disney, and put off the legal stuff, provided you give up this notion of an open relationship, and make a real committment to reconciliation. I'm fine with putting the past aside for a while."
Either way, I'll finish with:
"Think about it while we're gone, and let me know when we get back (six days). I'm sure neither one of us wants to drag this out longer than we need to."
Make sure she knows that it will be fun dates, no relationship talks. Just leave all that aside for six months or whatever. This counter sounds strong ... does not compromise your ethics about being married and dating. I think she may like that you are standing for something.
If I decide to make the counteroffer, I refuse to come off as needy. I need to convey the attitude that I'm offering a way to save our M, but it's an OFFER, not a REQUEST, and that I'm fine either way.
"Roll Me Away" is probably my favorite by him (and a great GAL song!), but it's piano-based, as are a lot of his other good ones.
Listened to this on the way to work this morning. Been a long time. Wow, it is a great song, especially for someone from Michigan, who's been to Mackinaw City, like me :-). No way I could ever do the vocals on a song like that. I can do Seger's "calmer" styles, but not that!
Yeah, piano based songs are the bane of acoustic solo guitar guys. Never fails that someone will request "Piano Man", or "Bridge Over Troubled Water", or "We've Got Tonight". Come on, I'm a guy with a single acoustic guitar, give me a break!
LOL!
Sure, I can do dueling electric solos with my lone acoustic! Plus slide, of course.
"lord knows I can't change" sounds better in a song
Future,
Another idea...maybe you tell her that THIS marriage needs to end. That you are living apart. The reconciliation is rocky and it would do you both well to end this marriage. That maybe in the future you two can start something new and different, but this one needs to end. There is some symbolism in that.
The ending of a marriage is terrible, but those logistical details are really stressful and if you get them over with, you can maybe date W sometime again. It might feel different. I don't know how things work in NY, but I'd be really uncomfortable if I was still liable for my H's finances and other legal commitments and we had been living apart for so long. Doesn't that worry you??? The divorce logistics were so stressful...it would be hard to focus on a rebuilding a relationship when you are walking that line for so long and its been so ambiguous for so long.
And, if you are going to date women other than W, even casually, who wants to date someone who is still married??
I've heard of a lot of people being divorced for a few years and then getting back together and having it work out. This is a rocky time for her. She needs to figure herself out. You've been drug through the mud for long enough. Tell her you are "freeing" her to do what she needs to do. Let her do it and if she comes back different later, then you can see. BUT, it sounds to me like she clearly needs the attention of other men to feel "validated". That's a bad sign for a stable marriage. Its a character issue.
Future what musclegal says is kind of how I view my sitch. I believe that XW really needed the old M to end. I may be kidding myself but that is how I see it. Whether we get back together or not is not the goal but I set her free and gave her the D that she wanted. Only time will tell what will happen next. Best of luck to you Future!
Sorry folks for the long period of silence. I had to travel back to Michigan for my Grandmother's funeral, and was there for a week. My daughter's birthday was a couple days after returning. I had agreed weeks ago to throw our daughter's party together with W, so I held off on our talk until it was done. I have to admit, the party was an blast. W threw it at her house. My idea was for W to set up a stage in her garage, and I'd set up my PA and mics, and my gift to my daughter was a karaoke machine for her and her friends to have fun with at the party. A little hard on the ears, but the kids loved it. The day after the party, W and I agreed to meet to talk.
During the party, W was acting quite flirtatious, but otherwise has been distant. Communication between us has been very minimal for the last several weeks. I was anticipating a fairly negative vibe in our conversation. I was wrong. We talked for a long time, and there's no way I can put it all here, so I'll try to include the most important parts.
Right off, W said "I hope this is the first of several conversations. I saw MC this morning, and we had a good talk that helped me understand a few things." Then we got into it, and W wanted to know what I meant by the text message I sent her while she was gone, saying that it was inappropriate to go to Disney together if we are dating other people. She was annoyed by its short and absolute message. She said "Can you explain what that was all about? I thought when I left we were looking good to go on the trip together." I said "First, when we talked about taking a trip together, I laid out what my dealbreakers are, and you completely ignored one of them." She acted confused, and said "What did I do?" I got a little ticked by her clueless act, and said "You called him." She said "You just said I needed to tell you, and I did." I said "No, my dealbreaker was that you contacting him in any way ever again, and if HE contacted YOU, then you need to tell me. Seems pretty clear to me." She looked a little scared and said "So that's it?" I just looked back at her without saying anything. She backed off and said "I misunderstood. I needed to contact him to end it once and for all. What would you have liked me to do?" I said "If you needed to do that, you needed to tell me, and get my input. Ask me if I was ok with it. See if I was more comfortable with an e-mail instead of a call." She looked at me and took my hands. She said "I'm sorry I didn't consider that." She seemed sincere, but I still wasn't feeling like she really GOT IT. She said "I'm totally fine living the rest of my life without ever talking to him again."
Then she got a little swagger back into her voice and said "But that's not even what your text message said. So what's going on? Which is it?" I said "It's all the same thing, if you want to be involved with other men, then it's not appropriate for us to be doing things together as a family." She said "I didn't even say that I wanted to date other men. I have no interest in dating other men. I just said I wanted to be able to go out and have fun, and flirt. All this is so much, and I can only take so much sadness and heartbreak. I need to have some fun and happiness in my life. Our time together has this toxic tinge to it. I believe I said that we should feel free to go out and have fun, and if either of us gets into a sitation where we want to have sex with someone else, then we should tell each other."
She again got annoyed and said "H, you're all worked up about OM, and that's not what the problem is." I said "If that isn't the problem, then it should have been nothing when I asked you why he was still on your facebook. You should have just said you didn't realize he was on there, it was nothing, and you'd immediately take him off. Then it would have been no big deal. But because you acted annoyed that I brought it up, and defended it, I know that it IS a big deal." She said "By then, I was already pulling away from you, so no, I didn't want to feel controlled by you. I feel like you're giving me these ultimatums, trying to control me, like you used to, and I won't go back to that." So ridiculous, if anyone in our marriage was being controlled, it was ME, not HER. I said "I haven't given you any ultimatums." She replied "You won't go to Disney if I say I'm going to go out and have fun and flirt." I said "It's not an ulimatum. You told me what you want, and I'm telling you what's right for me. Do whatever you want." She looked agitated. I can see her common manipulations aren't working, and it's causing her anxiety to build up. Her face and neck were getting flushed, a sign of anxiety in her.
She got a defeated tone, and weakly tried to defend herself. She said "You know the reason I kept him on my facebook? I like looking at his music choices. I told you I really want to find some new music, and I was looking at his choices." What a pathetic thing to say. Does she really think I'll be fine with her keeping him in her life so she can take advantage of his music recommendations? Does she really not think I can see that it's some desperate attempt to keep him in her life? Is she serious?! By the way, he is STILL on her FB.
Then she said "H, I'm still trying to be hopeful about us, but I have to be honest, I don't think we can get past this. I don't think you'll ever let it go. I don't think I can ever do enough to convince you how sorry I am." I finally decided to employ a little gucci, and said "You're right, I'm not sure I ever can. My trust in you has been seriously broken, and I don't know if I can get it back. It'll take a long time." Her reaction was surprising. She perked up and looked relieved, and said "Thank you so much for saying that. Thank you." A beautiful demonstration of what is preached here so often. AGREE with them, make them feel like you are on THEIR side, not OPPOSING them. She wanted to know that I could feel the hopelessness of our situation WITH her.
Then she said something profoundly sad. She said "You know what <son> said to me when I told him about Disney? I said I had something exciting to tell them, and when I said we were going to Disney, he looked really sad and walked away. I went and talked to him and asked him why, but he wouldn't tell me. I asked him if he thought I was going to say that we were getthing back together, and he nodded and started crying." It hit me like a sledgehammer, and I almost broke down there at the table. She said "I know. I'm sorry. I can see how devastated you are by that. H, we were reckless. We can't do it anymore. If we want to find out if we can get this to work between us, it has to only be us, away from the kids. They can't see it any more until we know." I nodded, and said "With our schedules, that is so tough." She smiled and said "Why are you so negative on that? We just need to get a regular babysitter and go out on dates. It'll be fun." I was touched by her optimism.
I thought about perhaps discussing some potential date ideas, but our time was up, and she needed to get back for an appointment. She said "I can't take any more today. Let's just sit on what we said here today, and talk again, ok?" I looked at my watch and said "Ok." We had a long hug, and that was it.
I have skipped over a lot of stuff. It's impossible to include a whole one hour conversation here, but I think I captured the general flavor. It's funny. Her tendancy to manipulate is so entrenched. I can see her fighting it, and trying to be open and honest, but it's a struggle for her. I'm struggling against my own entrenched tendancy to avoid, and fix, and please. I don't know if we'll be able to find a new healthy way to be together.
FU, you did very well. Robx worthy!
You were on to all her attempts at controlling you, you kept your cool, maintained your boundaries, geez. I'm impressed.
I concur. You did great. She needs to learn the differences between being CONTROLLING and SETTING HEALTHY BOUNDARIES. Look at Puppy's examples of the differences. You followed them well with your "I statements".
Going on dates is a great idea if she is fully committed to working on YOUR marriage that doesn NOT include any 3RD parties. Flirting included. This is not respectful period. Especially with someone that should be rebuilding your TRUST.
PMA
"It's not an ulimatum. You told me what you want, and I'm telling you what's right for me. Do whatever you want."
Truth dart in the bullseye.
Let her come to you now.
I was so impressed by your staunchness, Future. She tried to manipulate, but it failed.
It's funny. Her tendancy to manipulate is so entrenched. I can see her fighting it, and trying to be open and honest, but it's a struggle for her. I'm struggling against my own entrenched tendancy to avoid, and fix, and please.
Gawd, Future,
I could have written that myself. That hit so close to home for me that I found it physically uncomfortable to read.
We are a lot alike, you and I, and so are our wives.
Puppy
She replied "You won't go to Disney if I say I'm going to go out and have fun and flirt." I said "It's not an ulimatum. You told me what you want, and I'm telling you what's right for me. Do whatever you want." She looked agitated. I can see her common manipulations aren't working, and it's causing her anxiety to build up.
She said "You know what <son> said to me when I told him about Disney? I said I had something exciting to tell them, and when I said we were going to Disney, he looked really sad and walked away. I went and talked to him and asked him why, but he wouldn't tell me. I asked him if he thought I was going to say that we were getthing back together, and he nodded and started crying." It hit me like a sledgehammer, and I almost broke down there at the table.
I thought about perhaps discussing some potential date ideas
By the way, he is STILL on her FB.
By the way, he is STILL on her FB.
Yeah, the "A+" quickly becomes a "C-" if Future wavers on this one. This (to me, anyway) would be a DEALBREAKER, and it seems to me, more importantly, that Future has made it one as well. Once a boundary has laid, it has GOT to be enforced, or you will forever lose credibility, respect and yes -- love.
Puppy
It reads to me she continues to set you up for an open marriage. by adding you to the mix with a touch of "optimism"
to paraphrase:
lets try to date around our busy schedules. but I'm not too busy to go out and have fun and flirt.
"...if either of us gets into a sitation where we want to have sex with someone else, then we should tell each other."
yeah right.
It's funny. Her tendancy to manipulate is so entrenched. I can see her fighting it, and trying to be open and honest, but it's a struggle for her. I'm struggling against my own entrenched tendancy to avoid, and fix, and please.
Gawd, Future, I could have written that myself. That hit so close to home for me that I found it physically uncomfortable to read.
We are a lot alike, you and I, and so are our wives.
Puppy
I've gotten that impression too. I'm not sure if the combination of my W and me is a good thing, for me that is. It's like she's custom made to perfectly exploit my "nice guy" tendancies. If she was mean or hostile, I'd find it much easier to just walk away. If she wasn't so blasted interesting, I wouldn't be so attracted to her. Her manipulations are never vicious or pathological. She's just instinctively manipulative to try to get what she wants. She is a very good mother. Our kids are well behaved, easy going, and fun. Pretty much everyone who meets our kids finds them very charming. All that must mean something. She is so good at getting me to disarm, but then seems bored when I do. I think she's just as perplexed and frustrated by it as I am!
I don't know what it is. I'm no pushover at work. I don't take crap, and I am very confident in advocating for myself and my agenda. I don't allow my kids to manipulate me (at least not much, lol). She just seems to have my number.
What robx said a few pages ago is sticking with me. She's HAPPY chasing me. Let her do what makes her happy. I'm trying to take that to heart.
As long as you come across as the jealous one, the possessive one, the one that wants a committment before she is ready, the one who keeps wanting to talk about the relationship, the one who keeps failing to be the first to tire of the relationship talks, is as long as this will carry on and NOT be in your favor...
You are the female in this relationship as it stands.
The BEST thing for you to do is to AGREE with what SHE says (notice that I say "says" she wants)...
"WAW. I have been doing some thinking and here is what I have decided. I think that you are right. We should just relax and have fun and stop talking about the relationship. Go ahead and date others. I now see what you meant. I want to date others too. If we are meant to be together, then nothing can hold us apart. As far as sleeping with others, I think that is our own personal business. I don't want to know who you are sleeping with or if you are sleeping with other people. I don't care to divulge my personal sleepiing habits to you either. Let's just play it by ear from here on out. You can see anybody you want to see and I will too."
And THEN YOU BE THE ONE TO START DATING OTHER WOMEN...Date up a storm..... I would stop asking your WAW out altogether. Make her ask YOU out. you WANT her to wonder if this dating others idea she ahd BACKFIRED on HER. Did YOU find someone else that YOU like better. She has never had to worry or wonder about that because you are like a love sick puppy to her and she knows she can have you at any time any place.. How sad
This trying to be the stand up guy and show her how great you are is NOT working. It is turning her OFF. She is bored and wants to chase but you won't allow her to How sad that you won't call her bluff on this dating and sleeping around nonsense. This is usually what the female is doing to get the man to committ.You are the female here. UNATTRACTIVE to her. You should be letting her see that she WAS right. This dating others is great for YOU... Life is good.. Women are good... I love my life.. Thanks for the great idea honey... etc. etc. etc...
Your other opiton..
"I have been doing some thinking and I realize that I don't want you to date around and see me too. That isn't what I am lookikng for. I think we should go our separate ways for now."
You have been getting played... One minute she needs time to find out who she is.. The next minute she needs time to find out what makes her happy and now it is something else. You are too easy and that makes it hard for her to be attracted to you. Somone else is going to come along sooner or later if you don't wise up...
You should be showing her how much fun you are having WITHOUT her..You should want her to want to be with you because you are sooooo much fun.. She should be asking you if she can go with YOU to... (fill in the blank of fun things you are doing with other women without her along)...
You just don't get it. Women like men who are fun, men who don't pressure. men who can take or leave them.. men who are going somewhere... They hate BORING men.. What does she have to do to get you to understand that she is bored out of her skull???? You are boring her with this "exclusive, jealous of her ex, this isn't an ultimatium, and who she has on her Facebook talk"... WISE UP.
Consider dating before a D is final. May jeopardize custody. Saying you are dating and dressing up and going out but doing something else is a safer play.
Here we go with the naysayers....
There will be no custody issue..
They will be back together... His dating will BRING them back together....
Custody will be a non issue.
Not naysaying...I was all ready to take a 20 year old university cheerleader to the baseball game with me this weekend.
A friend just asked if the enjoyment of one game was worth the risk of losing custody of my kids. He asked if I couldn't wait a month or two for the D to finalize?
I'm just telling him to consider all options before making an educated decision. I would be remiss if I did not express the concern my friend had for me.
Spare me Chuck....
Are you that naive?????
So he can date and get his wife back..
OR..
he can not date and get divorced and let the court decided custody...
Your logic is flawed....
I would think he wants to save the marriage.. I guess that isn't what you want huh?
I guess so.
And I hope his dating does bring them back together. I really do.
Maybe you should sit back and learn for awhile then.
Do you have students attend your class and in their first week of attendence tell you they know more about what you are teaching than you do? What would you say to them if they did?
I learn every day.
My W has had some self destructive tendencies that puts me in good stead for custody. If my stubborn W never comes back I don't want to F up the high probability that I will be the primary custodian for the kids.
I will remain in lurk mode for this thread. And I would never profess to know more than you. Just told him to consider a point. Please teach us.
She replied "You won't go to Disney if I say I'm going to go out and have fun and flirt." I said "It's not an ulimatum. You told me what you want, and I'm telling you what's right for me. Do whatever you want." She looked agitated. I can see her common manipulations aren't working, and it's causing her anxiety to build up.
So she tried a new one:
She said "You know what <son> said to me when I told him about Disney? I said I had something exciting to tell them, and when I said we were going to Disney, he looked really sad and walked away. I went and talked to him and asked him why, but he wouldn't tell me. I asked him if he thought I was going to say that we were getthing back together, and he nodded and started crying." It hit me like a sledgehammer, and I almost broke down there at the table.
and it worked. boy. did it work.
The issue with our son didn't feel like a manipulation to me. More like a sad reality.
I thought about perhaps discussing some potential date ideas
I hear you, but this was much later in the conversation. We talked about a lot of stuff, and like I said, I wasn't able to put it all here. The vibe between us got very good near the end. At least I only THOUGHT about bringing it up.
By the way, he is STILL on her FB.
tsk.tsk.tsk.
Yup.
you are failing to see how all of this is to your advantage.
As long as you come across as the jealous one, the possessive one, the one that wants a committment before she is ready, the one who keeps wanting to talk about the relationship, the one who keeps failing to be the first to tire of the relationship talks, is as long as this will carry on and NOT be in your favor...
You are the female in this relationship as it stands.
The BEST thing for you to do is to AGREE with what SHE says (notice that I say "says" she wants)...
"WAW. I have been doing some thinking and here is what I have decided. I think that you are right. We should just relax and have fun and stop talking about the relationship. Go ahead and date others. I now see what you meant. I want to date others too. If we are meant to be together, then nothing can hold us apart. As far as sleeping with others, I think that is our own personal business. I don't want to know who you are sleeping with or if you are sleeping with other people. I don't care to divulge my personal sleepiing habits to you either. Let's just play it by ear from here on out. You can see anybody you want to see and I will too."
And THEN YOU BE THE ONE TO START DATING OTHER WOMEN...Date up a storm..... I would stop asking your WAW out altogether. Make her ask YOU out. you WANT her to wonder if this dating others idea she ahd BACKFIRED on HER. Did YOU find someone else that YOU like better. She has never had to worry or wonder about that because you are like a love sick puppy to her and she knows she can have you at any time any place.. How sad
This trying to be the stand up guy and show her how great you are is NOT working. It is turning her OFF. She is bored and wants to chase but you won't allow her to How sad that you won't call her bluff on this dating and sleeping around nonsense. This is usually what the female is doing to get the man to committ.You are the female here. UNATTRACTIVE to her. You should be letting her see that she WAS right. This dating others is great for YOU... Life is good.. Women are good... I love my life.. Thanks for the great idea honey... etc. etc. etc...
I hear you. I'm learning. I don't think our conversation was quite as lopsided as you describe, but your point is taken. I've gone from being COMPLETELY wussy to now only slightly wussy. When she indicated she was interested in dating others, I conveyed an attitude not totally different from what you said. I did go out and have fun, I didn't contact her at all. I said I wasn't interested in going to Disney with her because "WE are dating other people", not "SHE is dating other men". I practically cut off from her altogether. I think that's why she backpedaled so much in our conversation. I'm not quite the open book I used to be. I do have her wondering. Her little manipulations and flirting aren't working like they used to.
Your other opiton..
"I have been doing some thinking and I realize that I don't want you to date around and see me too. That isn't what I am lookikng for. I think we should go our separate ways for now."
That's pretty close to what I told her, but I think your first suggestion is the better one.
You have been getting played... One minute she needs time to find out who she is.. The next minute she needs time to find out what makes her happy and now it is something else. You are too easy and that makes it hard for her to be attracted to you. Somone else is going to come along sooner or later if you don't wise up...
You should be showing her how much fun you are having WITHOUT her..You should want her to want to be with you because you are sooooo much fun.. She should be asking you if she can go with YOU to... (fill in the blank of fun things you are doing with other women without her along)...
You just don't get it. Women like men who are fun, men who don't pressure. men who can take or leave them.. men who are going somewhere... They hate BORING men.. What does she have to do to get you to understand that she is bored out of her skull???? You are boring her with this "exclusive, jealous of her ex, this isn't an ultimatium, and who she has on her Facebook talk"... WISE UP.
I really don't think she is explicitly and purposely playing me. I think the emotional gyrations in her are coming out in these random manipulative actions. Doesn't really matter though, as the end result is the same.
I think I get it, I'm just not very good at it yet. As I said before, SHE is the one asking for all these relationship talks, including the last one. She asked to talk, she suggested the time and place. I just showed up. I am very fun and light when I'm with her, EXCEPT when this CRAP comes up. I really only had one requirement, that she gets OM out of her life. I understand what you're saying, but his presence is absolutely toxic to our R. I can't be light and fun around her with him in the picture, which is why I just go away. If she wants me light and fun, she has to get rid of him. As far as her dating other men, I don't think I acted jealous, just matter of fact stated that it wasn't appropriate to travel together as a family if we're dating other people. She is a world class cake eater. Allowing her to cake eat is the guaranteed way to keep this thing in limbo forever.
Her seeing me having a great time without her is what drew her back before. She is asking me to go to concerts, to fireworks, to Disney, to my gigs playing out. As long as OM is in the picture, I don't WANT to let her have that, but if I don't say that to her, how will she know? She's so clueless about what his presence means, so yes, I've "feminized" myself by having to lay that out to her. Otherwise, she'll just see me keeping my distance, turning down her offers, and not knowing why. How was I supposed to convey that her getting rid of OM is the requirement for getting me back in her life if I don't tell her? I agree, it looks jealous, and possessive, and feminine, but what else should I have done?
I do really like your first suggestion. Thanks for the time you're putting into this.
you are failing to see how all of this is to your advantage.
I'm starting to get it, now I just have to DO IT.
How was I supposed to convey that her getting rid of OM is the requirement for getting me back in her life if I don't tell her?
you do this by playing the field yourself. date as many woman as you can afford. date her divorced best friend. find one that plays bass.
you don't tell her a word. you simply drop off the face of the earth. your woman is a smart one; she will smell it on you from the other end of the phone. you will reek of 'I dont need you anylonger.'
The other man in the picture is not going away until she realizes this open marriage proposition was not what she wanted in the first place. Right now it is ideal for her. This guy, that guy, drinks, flirt, fun, fun, fun.
BUT THEN .... all of sudden Future is gone from the picture. She realizes, Future may be funning someone else. The flip flopper maybe flip flopping some girl around his bed.
WOAH .... all of sudden you will hear "I think we should be exclusive to eachother and spend everynight as a family." The busy schedule and need to find herself will disappear real quick.
You are thinking to much.
You are trying to hard.
You are over analyzing all these "techniques."
This is a true story for Chuck, since the Chevy Nova story went over his head ...
I had this girl in one of my classes this spring, her name was 'Zoot.' No lie. She signed up for Botany because she had a Rose tattoed on her butt. It was an Biology elective for her but she did finished the semester with a "B" on multiple choice exams and a single paper. She made the best Vodka Gimlets for a young girl 'tending her way through school. An artist.
You could never imagine how hard my wife tried to make a better Gimlet straight up.
It's funny. Her tendancy to manipulate is so entrenched. I can see her fighting it, and trying to be open and honest, but it's a struggle for her. I'm struggling against my own entrenched tendancy to avoid, and fix, and please.
Gawd, Future, I could have written that myself. That hit so close to home for me that I found it physically uncomfortable to read.
We are a lot alike, you and I, and so are our wives.
Puppy
I've gotten that impression too. I'm not sure if the combination of my W and me is a good thing, for me that is. It's like she's custom made to perfectly exploit my "nice guy" tendancies. . . . She's just instinctively manipulative to try to get what she wants. She is a very good mother. Our kids are well behaved, easy going, and fun. Pretty much everyone who meets our kids finds them very charming. All that must mean something.
She is so good at getting me to disarm, but then seems bored when I do. I think she's just as perplexed and frustrated by it as I am!
I don't know what it is. I'm no pushover at work. I don't take crap, and I am very confident in advocating for myself and my agenda. I don't allow my kids to manipulate me (at least not much, lol). She just seems to have my number.OMG, I could have written that too!!!
Puppy
The other man in the picture is not going away until she realizes this open marriage proposition was not what she wanted in the first place. Right now it is ideal for her. This guy, that guy, drinks, flirt, fun, fun, fun.
BUT THEN .... all of sudden Future is gone from the picture. She realizes, Future may be funning someone else. The flip flopper maybe flip flopping some girl around his bed.
WOAH .... all of sudden you will hear "I think we should be exclusive to eachother and spend everynight as a family." The busy schedule and need to find herself will disappear real quick.
That is EXACTLY what I did earlier this year, and yes, it absolutely worked. Unfortunately, her comes out destructively, as in suing me for custody of my kids! I know in her head, she was thinking "I won't have some other woman with my kids. If H wants to screw around with some whore, I'll show him, I'll take the kids and he can screw around all he wants!" Sometimes I think she's nuts. I went from standing across from her in courtroom, to her trying to seduce me and singing my praises, in a matter of weeks!
When she came after me, she did want us together virtually every night, she wanted to know where I was, she wanted me by her side. Then this crap with OM came up, and her attraction divebombed. I did feel like it was making me look weak, but I had been putting up with her cake eating ways for TWO YEARS!
Seems to me, Future, like there is a lot of game-playing being suggested here. You have to hold true to yourself ... at least, that is what I find attractive in a man. Think about it ... will you have to constantly be keeping your W on her toes once she comes back home? When will she just love you for the man you are? I have noticed a number of people (mostly men) who have come back here after supposedly 'saving' their M. I wonder if they were playing the game and couldn't keep it up after they got their wives back.
Look, if someone (a person who has been married to you a number of years, has children with you) cannot love you for the person you are ... then I would say hasta la vista baby, ciao. Mean what you say, don't play the game. If bust this divorce, and she comes back, then discovers that you were playing her (even though she is doing it), she will leave again. I think you are the honorable type. Being honorable doesn't mean you have to tell her everything though, and you have to stick to your boundaries. If she wants to go and do the flirty thing, and still have OM on her FB, etc. then so be it. Time to step back.
I think you are doing an awesome job. Just my point of view.
Hi BeingMe, those thoughts have occurred to me too. I can maybe attract her back, but if we reconcile, my option of "dating others" is gone, and so we need to be able to keep our R strong without that on the table any more. Gucci says she's bored, but I am NOT a boring person. I have a very interesting job, I run competitively in races, I perform in front of people, I love sports, I love good movies, I love good food, I love good drink, I'm great with my kids. From what I could gather, OM is much more boring than me. He only has the fantasy of living in another country. He does have the "take her or leave her" attitude about my W, because he just doesn't really care.
She is bored because she knows she can have me. I was making it too easy for her. I have to make her doubt that, and even if we reconcile, I have to make it clear I won't tolerate having my boundaries violated, and walking away is absolutely on the table. I have to break this "spell" she has on me, and maintain my own boundaries and self worth above and beyond my R with her. That's what I was trying to do in our conversation the other day.
I've said it here over and over, the "spell" is NOT her, it's our kids. I grew up in an intact family, she didn't. She just doesn't value it the way I do. I have a hard time always putting MY boundaries first, when it's the kids that will suffer. I need to drill it into my thick skull that maintaining my boundaries and self worth will lead to a strong marriage and family, and be far BETTER for the kids. My W is sneaky though. She chips away at boundaries, little by little, always guaging how much she can get away with, letting that normalize, then chipping away a little more. Eventually when I reach a point of having enough, it seems to be an overreaction, since it was preceded by her taking a small chip. Infuriating!!!!
Yeah, the "A+" quickly becomes a "C-" if Future wavers on this one. This (to me, anyway) would be a DEALBREAKER, and it seems to me, more importantly, that Future has made it one as well. Once a boundary has laid, it has GOT to be enforced, or you will forever lose credibility, respect and yes -- love.
Yes, absolutely. My dealbreaker was about us going away on a trip together, and I told her I'm not going, so I have held on that. One thing I omitted from our conversation was that she tried to guilt me into going. She said something like "I can't believe you are choosing to miss your kids first visit to Disney, and you're being so selfish as to deny them sharing it with you." What a load of crap. Does she really think if she hadn't had an A and left me that I'd choose to skip a trip to Disney with my kids? That was a return to old school manipulation on her part.
I've been reading along (for some time now!). All I can really say is your W sounds exhausting. She does sound smart, that I will give her, but I wouldn't be so sure her manipulation is not as planned as you think.
This has been going on for a very long time in some form or the other. I do admire the the love you have for her and your desire to do right by your children. Eventually though something is going to have to give. Your W is smart as long as you buy into her idea of "smart". Once you stop doing that she tends to act (as per your description) quite dumb.
Think about it - how could ANYBODY in the RIGHT MIND even say out loud to a spouse they cheated on... "well doll, I didn't realize it would be a problem to swap music files with the man I traveled around the world for to have a torrid affair with" COME ON LADY! She *thought* though she could use her "tools" (which are impressive LOL) to somehow convince you she didn't understand. Please.
I can't say what is right about dating or not dating but I do think you bring up a good point... once all this chase business is part of the past will she be content with a "regular R"?
Thanks CityGirl for staying with me here. Yes, she is exhausting, isn't she? You know, sometimes I think this is all part of the plan, to finally kick me in my a**, and force me to be the man I should be. I've let the state of my R with women dominate so much of my life since about age 15. It's time I took that control back. The thing is, I think if I do that, my W just might be satisfied. In the mean time, my kids' childhoods are flying by...
I forgot about what she said about why she keeps OM on her fb ... Future, I think she thinks you're dumb, naive, and probably pliable. She actually thinks that she can say anything, do anything because deep down she knows you want the M more badly than she does. After all, she grew up in a broken home, and she turned out "okay" ... NOT. Good grief! She probably watched one of her parents playing these games and learned from it (I suspect the father?). Fortunately, you are not dumb or naive, and she is quickly finding out that you're not as pliable as you used to be. You are just a caring H and father. The best partner a girl could ever wish for.
It's peculiar that my H also grew up in a broken home, whereas my parents stuck together through thick and thin. I wonder if this is true for a lot of WAS vs LBS.
I can't believe she played the guilt card about the children and Disney. It's not as if going to a Disney playland is a stepping stone in a child's development. Or, am I being typically non-American? Missing their first day of school, or graduation, or wedding ... these are the things a parent should not miss.
You are not boring. She probably is going through a MLC of some sort, and one's spouse is always the one to blame for these things. I find the nicest spouses fall prey to being blamed for the most outrageous things that they did not do, history redesigned to fit the story of why the WAS is having the affair ... the list goes on.
once all this chase business is part of the past will she be content with a "regular R"?
excellent question. i am glad someone finally asked it.
It will never be a "regular relationship." She is not "the girl" he met on the 'T' coming back from Porter Square that became the wife that will only think of him. The chase is important it has to continue. Once it stops the relationship fizzles. You are reading about here. You can read about it in 20 other threads on this board. Go to any social function or to dinner and see it first hand, the couple that stands apart, the couple that doesn't talk at the table, the wife checking out some guys crotch or the husband staring at some other woman's breasts. They are bored out of their gourds. There is no challenge.
There is nothing wrong with serving up a little "mystery fruit cake." The first thread I posted on this board was, 'what does it mean when your wife tells you to get yourself a girlfriend.' and I got some lame answers. Its a pity a lot of people don't understand this. The people who divorce here and never come back learn it quick. The folks with teenage daughters can observe it first hand. If someone is falling in love with you because you need them and can't live without them, they are codependent also.
The chase is better than the catch. If you are unobtainable then someone is striving to obtain you. They are trying to attract and impress you as you are attracting and impressing them. You challenge each other. You are constantly trying to be better and sexier and cooler.
"What's cooler than cool?" (Andre 3000 right?)
Ice Cold. Once you bore them, they move on and you have a hell of a time winning them back. Its not hard to realize what won them over in the first place is the same thing that will win them back. The challenge. The quest. The infatuation.
And if it don't, well, you are already better and sexier and cooler. And you know what you want. You are lying if you say as you are driving along in your car you don't sing along:
My baby don't mess around.
Because she loves me so.
And this I know for sure.
To me, it is really unfortunate that there have to be all these games and "the chase". I love my wife more than anything and all I want is for her to be happy with me and our family. Why is it that she cannot be content with what we have? For her to tell me what it is that is lacking so that I can provide it. It is what I want to do and what I need to do, but I have to know what that is. I cannot divine it from thin air.
I'm sorry, but to me, after all these years and children together, it is just pathetic for it to end like this......
It just seems so wrong.
I don't debate AT ALL there must be *something* within a long term R that keeps things interesting. But (IMO of course) what Future's W wants is the option to "chase" other men if she feels like it AND have Future as her husband. IMO that cannot really continue in a marriage if that is the road they get on yet Mrs. Future seems to suggest/hope (if I am understanding all of this correctly) that it might work for them.
To me a "regular R" or "regular marriage" does not involve ANY third parties! The "dance" should be between two people (husband and wife, boyfriend and girlfriend or whatever the case may be) but not a husband/wife and somebody else when things get boring. Unless I am totally misunderstanding all of this it seems Mrs. Futre is wanting a very "modern" framework to the marriage.
I agree with McQueen, this is definitely how it works.
I also agree with Dan, this is sad and unfortunate that it has to be this way.
Man, do I have some questions for the Big Guy when I get there someday.
Puppy
Ice Cold. Once you bore them, they move on and you have a hell of a time winning them back.
Its not hard to realize what won them over in the first place is the same thing that will win them back. The challenge. The quest. The infatuation.And if it don't, well, you are already better and sexier and cooler. And you know what you want. You are lying if you say as you are driving along in your car you don't sing along:
My baby don't mess around.
Because she loves me so.
And this I know for sure.
And this explains why so many LBS continue to pursue their WAS, even when the spouse isn't a good match for them in a long term R.
Mystery fruit cake... I understand you now.
I finally got the 'mystery fruit cake' thing too. I was confusing the metaphor to "cake eating" instead of being mysterious which is why I was slow on the uptake.
Steve is the board Yoda in my opinion.
And to think that I was really upset with him at one point.
This is SO frustrating, because it's exactly the OPPOSITE of what my W says. She says she wants someone who loves her completely, who cherishes her, who is generous with himself, who spoils her. Doesn't sound like she wants a chase or challenge.
Of course she's full of it. It IS the chase that get's her feelings of love and infatuation going, but she won't admit it to herself. She truly believes that the reason she loses her feelings of love after the chase is over is because the man doesn't love her enough. Does anyone here think I don't love her enough??!!!
Have you read the 5 Love Languages? We men are often pretty clueless about giving our wives the type of love and respect they desire. I thought that just "loving" her was enough. Hah. Shows how much of an idiot I was.
Does anyone here think I don't love her enough??!!!
Does your wife feel loved by you? Not are you loving her enough but are you loving her the right way. The way she needs to feel loved. When you can make it all about her without losing yourself, you both will feel loved because then she will love you the way you want.
If you look back 20 pages or so in this thread, you'll see not only have I read 5LL, during our attempted reconciliation, we went through the tests together, had a great time, and I felt we made real progress. She took the book with her, and has now recommended it to several of her MC clients. Doesn't matter though. I know I'm hitting her LL effectively now, but without the chase, I don't think it's enough. Earlier this year, not only was I NOT hitting her LL, I wasn't even SPEAKING to her, for months! The result was her trying to seduce me. The spark was absolutely back, she was thrilled being with me, she wanted physical contact all the time. As I came back to her, and as she realized I did want reconciliation, her feelings waned. The challenge was gone. I am worried that even if I truly go away, date other women, keep her at bay long enough that she's begging for me back, that once I let her back in, the same thing will happen again. I'm a one woman man, and I want a committed R. That just might be incompatible with who she is.
Ah, sorry Future, there are so many pages to wade through that I missed that.
How can you keep the "chase" alive? How can you romance her? Do you fall into ruts with her? What about you thrills her? What are you doing when she feels the challenge is gone? Are you treating her differently? Are you always at her beck and call? Does she know that she can control your actions?
I ask because I'm looking for the same answers.
That just might be incompatible with who she is.
Yeah, it's tough. If you are coming at her, she isn't interested, so how to be a confident, charming, affectionate man who is also a challenge?
Don't kiss her but when she's naughty, but don't be a jerk either. Don't give up your ME time either. Stay true to yourself and expect to be tested. Let her seduce you sometimes--kitty needs a challenge, so it's OK to be charming and even flirty, but don't fall all over yourself trying to get her into bed.
Why does it have to be so hard, eh?
Future,
It has been my experience on this planet that what women SAY they want, and what they TRULY want (or at least what will make them happy and fulfilled), are not the same thing.
Puppy
Future,
It has been my experience on this planet that what women SAY they want, and what they TRULY want (or at least what will make them happy and fulfilled), are not the same thing.
Puppy
Time to recycle the old Benny Hill bit.
H- "When you say no, do you really mean yes?"
W- "No."
LOL!
Benny Hill is like a litmus test for humanity. If you don't like him, you're a pod person.
“Girls are like pianos. When they're not upright, they're grand.”
Benny Hill
I am worried that even if I truly go away, date other women, keep her at bay long enough that she's begging for me back, that once I let her back in, the same thing will happen again. I'm a one woman man, and I want a committed R. That just might be incompatible with who she is.
What does she say when you tell her this? Does she believe you? I agree with you. It's time for her to make a decision. It's time for YOU to decide if this is the end or not. You do deserve someone that wants to be with YOU and only YOU. It's time for her to choose. Or YOU are wasting YOUR LIFE AWAY with someone UNDESERVING of your LOVE.
It has been my experience on this planet that what women SAY they want, and what they TRULY want (or at least what will make them happy and fulfilled), are not the same thing.
A bit of a generalization there Puppy, not so? Strangely, I have had some experience of this with men, so I think it's more the Mars/Venus thing? Or, there are just some men who don't like to make their feelings clear, so you are left dangling in the wind, never knowing which way to go, until you just leave. Sometimes, for a man to play too hard to get, will get him left.
Men and women are all different and should be treated according to their natures. For me, if a guy plays games, I just leave. I'm not into this chase thing ... too exhausting. I don't need that kind of excitement. I want my man to be consistent with his feelings, stay true to his vows, be honorable. Just as I would. I don't need to be in a R where I'm not wanted, or I have to chase a man down to get into it. Eh, that's me .... very different to Puppy's portrayal of the women he has met. Maybe, I'm the boring type? I'm a "one man" type, and it takes me a long time to get over that "one man". But, when I do, then I am so over him, and that's what has happened to me currently.
You do deserve someone that wants to be with YOU and only YOU. It's time for her to choose. Or YOU are wasting YOUR LIFE AWAY with someone UNDESERVING of your LOVE.
I agree with PMA, but only if you are ready, Future. It took me five years to get over my H, and we were in Piecing (or, at least, I was). I don't know where he was. I am now ready to be on my own. I don't love him anymore. I like him as a friend, and I hope we can be that.
Sorry for the hijack ... just had to address Puppy's comment. But, for the most part, I take his advice very seriously.
It has been my experience on this planet that what women SAY they want, and what they TRULY want (or at least what will make them happy and fulfilled), are not the same thing.
A bit of a generalization there Puppy, not so?
Of course, which is why I very purposely prefaced it with the "it's been my experience" part. I'm hardly a representative sample.
I'm not saying ALL women are like that, but -- like you -- I do believe that men are women are wired very differently (the "Mars and Venus" book is one of the Top 1 to 3 books that I recommend to people, esp. MEN!!), and I do think that the MAJORITY of women do posess something in them that basically says "I know I said I wanted that, but I actually need you to call me on my bullchit sometimes."
Many women CLAIM they want the guy as described in "No More Mr. Nice Guy." Then when they have him, they find him boring and unattractive and they lose respect and -- ultimately -- interest.
Puppy
As the old saying goes it takes two to tango. A third throws off the entire dance.
The tango is sensual yet aggressive - there is lots of back and forth. It's a fine example of pent up/release.
If you want mystery and excitement in a R with longevity you choose one tango partner and make the "dance" a bit different each day. There is no room for a THIRD partner. Committed R's aren't much different.
If your W wants somebody to spoil and adore her with little intention to CONTRIBUTE anything to the R tell her to call her daddy. If she wants to "tango" with you tell her to get on board. If not there are plenty of women out there who have would be more than happy to dance with you in a long term fashion and shun the idea of boredom in a R.
Yeah, these are broad generalizations, and individuals definitely vary. There are some generalizations about men that certainly don't apply to me!
Indeed, Future, and nicely put CC. Puppy, perhaps you are attracted to a certain kind of woman??? If there is such a specific kind of anyone.
'Nuff said about generalizations??? As has been said, Future you will probably have to make a choice eventually, but there is no hurry. It's all on your timeline. It's probably also dependent on how your W continues to play this "game". In my opinion, of course.
Take care.
BeingMe,
I've been with the same woman for 25 years. That was my observation of women -- and relationships -- in general.
Puppy
Darn, I wish there was an icon for "tongue in cheek", which is what my comment was regarding the type of person you might be attracted to, Puppy. I've been with the same man for the last 24.5 years ... I have no comment to make about men in general.
Sorry again, for the hijack, Future.
Darn, I wish there was an icon for "tongue in cheek",
Yeah, but first we need one of a smiley munching popcorn!
Ok, I need some help here. As the trip to Disney grows closer, if my W brings up my not going again, I'm feeling compelled to say something like "I'm sad your choice to keep OM in your life makes it impossible for us to enjoy such a wonderful experience as a family." Is that a truth dart, or just more demonstration of weakness?
I guess what I find confusing is (if I am remembering this correctly) your W said a few days (weeks?) ago that the two of you had to really make your R less exposed to the children because they really were having false hope. Yet she wants you to go on vacation with her and the children? If she feels it is best to keep your daily exchanges more private then how in the world is going on VACATION in line with desire?
I guess what I am asking is it really about OM or is it more about you and your W "acting" more divorced so your children don't always think you are getting back together?
Ok, I need some help here. As the trip to Disney grows closer, if my W brings up my not going again, I'm feeling compelled to say something like "I'm sad your choice to keep OM in your life makes it impossible for us to enjoy such a wonderful experience as a family." Is that a truth dart, or just more demonstration of weakness?
"I have decided this M isn't what I want. I don't want to confuse you or the kids and take a trip together."
Then book a gig in Memphis for that weekend.
Then book a gig in Memphis for that weekend.
And if you do book a gig in memphis, be sure to let me know, and if I'm not on call, I'll drop by
This is a surreal world we live in here. Would be so bizarre to meet you folks in person!
Yes, of course my W is inconsistent. What else is new? She is supposedly worried about getting the kids' hopes up, but she hates the idea of going to Disney without me, so she justifies it to herself.
I'm planning on giving her some variant of a gucci speech:
"WAW. I have been doing some thinking and I decided you're right. We should just relax and have fun and stop talking about the relationship. Go ahead and date others. I now see what you meant. I want to date others too. If we are meant to be together, then nothing can hold us apart. As far as sleeping with others, that's our own personal business. Let's just play it by ear from here on out, and we'll see what happens.
To be blunt nothing sounds new with your W. I wasn't making the observation to point out AGAIN your W is wishy washy. I was asking you what YOUR issue was with the trip? The "W/OM" issue or the fact it injects more hope in your children that you are taking a family vacation?
Ok, I need some help here. As the trip to Disney grows closer, if my W brings up my not going again, I'm feeling compelled to say something like "I'm sad your choice to keep OM in your life makes it impossible for us to enjoy such a wonderful experience as a family." Is that a truth dart, or just more demonstration of weakness?
"I have decided this M isn't what I want. I don't want to confuse you or the kids and take a trip together."
Then book a gig in Memphis for that weekend.
Love that -- perfect.
I was going to say -- when she gives you the crap about "selfish" and "disappointing the kids" to respond something like:
"I'm really sorry you feel that way. I decided that such a trip just didn't really work for me right now, considering everything that's happened."
Puppy
If we are truly working on reconciliation, then I have no problem going on the trip to Disney. It would be a chance to build good memories, and bond us together. Since my W refuses to completely sever her connection to OM, and since she started throwing out her "open marriage" ideas, we are still headed toward divorce, so it would be irresponsible to mislead the kids. It does make me sad, and that's why I want to say something to that effect to my W regarding the trip.
I see your problem ... disappointing the kids now, or disappointing them later when the Disney dream doesn't bring their parents back together. IMO, it would be prudent to go to Disney once you are a true family, reunited under one roof. Rather, let the children get used to separate holidays until then.
I say, stick to your boundaries ... your wife knows why you aren't going ... she ain't that stupid ... on the contrary, she is very clever and knows how to get her own way, and I am sure in normal circumstances that wouldn't be a problem, but now you are aware, and need to tread carefullly. If she asks again, just reply, "so OM is off your FB and we're going to date exclusively?" Or, just a "no" would suffice.
Take care.
Ok, I need some help here. As the trip to Disney grows closer, if my W brings up my not going again, I'm feeling compelled to say something like "I'm sad your choice to keep OM in your life makes it impossible for us to enjoy such a wonderful experience as a family." Is that a truth dart, or just more demonstration of weakness?
"I have decided this M isn't what I want. I don't want to confuse you or the kids and take a trip together."
Then book a gig in Memphis for that weekend.
Future, I've read your sitch and I'm sorry your here. I agree with this . . . and I'm in Memphis.
Future,
I vote for Memphis too. You keep giving her ultimatiums, drawing your line in the sand, and she comes back with a "compromise", which pretty much means to do it her way. My XH said that he never wanted a divorce, he just wanted to keep his relationship going with OW and sleep in the spare bedroom until he figured it out. If I would have let him, he'd still be there
My sense is that your W is pretty similar.
As someone who cut the cord, I'm much, much happier now. We're cordial, and he asked for another chance not long ago, but he hasn't done anything that would make me think that he has changed.
If not Memphis, I hear Nashville is nice too! Either is better than Disney World, given the current circumstances. You can take the kids, even, if you want with you to TN!
You can take the kids, even, if you want with you to TN!
If he's taking the kids to TN, then Gatlinburg: Dollywood, aquariums, fun houses, etc.
Welcome to my thread KellBell0820. Yeah, it's sad we're all here.
I have wanted to take a trip to Nashville for years now. Ironically, a couple months ago when W and I were sort of reconciling, Nashville was on our list to take a weekend getaway trip together this fall.
Should be interesting tonight. I'm going to see a concert tonight at a festival here. Talked to W on the phone this morning about kid stuff, and turns out she's going to the concert too, with her neighbors. I'm planning on going with some friends of mine, including a couple single women. Oh boy.
Guitar Man.
I know you like writing these notes and speeches to your wife. And no matter what I say to convince you they don't mean jack crap to your wife works, I do need to point out one thing here.
Before you do these letters, notes, speeches, get your mind made up and stick to it.
for more than an hour!
at 4:48 you posted the first quote below. at 5:03 the other.
which is it mcfly? open marriage or no open marriage?
Go ahead and date others. I now see what you meant. I want to date others too. If we are meant to be together, then nothing can hold us apart.
W refuses to completely sever her connection to OM, and since she started throwing out her "open marriage" ideas, we are still headed toward divorce,
Guitar Man.
I know you like writing these notes and speeches to your wife. And no matter what I say to convince you they don't mean jack crap to your wife works, I do need to point out one thing here.
Before you do these letters, notes, speeches, get your mind made up and stick to it.
for more than an hour!
Not sure what you mean SMQ. I don't think those two quotes you snipped out are necessarily in disagreement. I should add a line to the first one though, something like "I don't feel right being married while we date others, so I need us to get our legal agreement finalized."
I don't want a D, I'd prefer to work on reconciliation, but if she is refusing to put real effort into it, I'll spend my time investigating other options. I can't put my life on hold. In that case though, I need to pursue D. No open marriage.
Interesting night Saturday. I did see W at the concert. Was a bit awkward at first. W seemed very happy to see me, very friendly, touchy feely. She and her friends ended up hanging out with me and my friends. It was an outdoor festival on a gorgeous night. W and I took a walk together to get some food. She looked stunning, but I kept some distance. My friends were surprised and impressed by the casual nature in which I treated her. We walked past an airbrush tattoo booth, and I told W she should get one. We had a great time looking over the patterns, with not-so-subtle sexual undertones. None really struck our fancy, and our friends were waiting for us, so we moved on.
She had to leave before me, as she had to get home to relieve the babysitter. Felt very weird her leaving me there with my single friends. One of the women in my group later said "There is definitely something going on between you two."
She leaves on Friday with the kids to go to Disney World. Her mother still thinks I should go, my mother is even conflicted about it. My friends think I should not go. W has a plane ticket for me. I feel like I'm in a game of chicken.
I feel like I'm in a game of chicken.
I understand that but your W knows you will move first. The goal is to get her to move first. The way to do that is.......
I can't put my life on hold
Nope, in fact you cannot do that even if you try or think you are doing it.
Life marches on even if your wife is the present object of your obsession.
So you can't put your life on hold even if it feels like you are doing just that. You aren't.
Nope, in fact you cannot do that even if you try or think you are doing it.
Life marches on even if your wife is the present object of your obsession.
So you can't put your life on hold even if it feels like you are doing just that. You aren't.
Absolutely. Took me a year to realize that very thing.
She had to leave before me, as she had to get home to relieve the babysitter. Felt very weird her leaving me there with my single friends. One of the women in my group later said "There is definitely something going on between you two."
Oh yeah, without question, there is some serious "chemistry" going on here, Future. You two obviously have a strong shared connection, and shared history.
All the more reason to PLAY THIS CORRECTLY, as you're being advised.
This MAY be the only remaining shot you get.
Puppy
I hear you, so I'm trying to play this very cool, but sometimes it feels so stupid. Why don't I just go to her and say "You say you're worried I'll never get past what happened, yet you're keeping OM on your FB page. How am I supposed to let it go when you can't? Is keeping him on your FB page worth destroying our chances at reconciliation and us not going to Disney together as a family? Is this really what you want?"
Does that make me look weak?
Does she need to be "broken" again, and come to me? I feel like if I had said in our meeting "W, you keeping him on FB is making it impossible for me to trust you to reconcile, and start to be a family again" she would have taken him off. I didn't think to say that, so here we are. Obviously if she really wanted me to go, pride notwithstanding, she would proactively take him off FB and ask me if I'm now willing to go.
I hear you, so I'm trying to play this very cool, but sometimes it feels so stupid. Why don't I just go to her and say "You say you're worried I'll never get past what happened, yet you're keeping OM on your FB page. How am I supposed to let it go when you can't? Is keeping him on your FB page worth destroying our chances at reconciliation and us not going to Disney together as a family? Is this really what you want?"
Does that make me look weak?
SHE needs to be the one to come to YOU, with a sincere, heartfelt "What will it take?" moment of contrition.
She ain't there yet. But she's close.
Puppy
Thanks Puppy.
Sometimes I wonder. She is so good at keeping her cards hidden.
I know what she and I share. I know the feelings between us are real. I also know she really wants to avoid facing what she did. Even if she is done with OM, and I do think that it's over, she doesn't want to have to think of it as something bad, and mark it in her memory as something to be ashamed of. If she ends up with someone other than me, OM could always be referred to as the guy she had an international "fling" with after her marriage failed, and not feel like she has to erradicate everything associated with him and his country from her life. She could keep the little gifts he gave her, she could keep the photos. It can be a protected and cherished memory, and her new guy won't know the difference. I think she underestimates how those things will have a taint on them, no matter whether she pushes me out of her life or not. They cannot be cleansed by sheer avoidance.
I know her though, and unfortunately, she might choose to keep trying for a long time.
You have to keep trying to. DO NOT PURSUE her at all anymore. You keep falling back to statements like this all the time:
Why don't I just go to her and say "You say you're worried I'll never get past what happened, yet you're keeping OM on your FB page. How am I supposed to let it go when you can't? Is keeping him on your FB page worth destroying our chances at reconciliation and us not going to Disney together as a family? Is this really what you want?"
You have to stop this kind of thinking completely. Let her go. Forget about it until she comes back to you. How many years do you want to drag this out?
Sorry if I am being an ass, but you have been through this so many times before. STOP!
I never contact her, unless for child related business, and I keep it to that. How much less can I do to NOT pursue her?
Yes, I'm frustrated by her behavior, and I need to let it go.
And I am sad that my kids are going to Disney World, and I won't be there to enjoy it with them. Particularly brutal is that W WANTS me to go, and even bought a plane ticket for me.
And I am sad that my kids are going to Disney World, and I won't be there to enjoy it with them. Particularly brutal is that W WANTS me to go, and even bought a plane ticket for me.
She wants you to go but she is not all in. You can handle it.
Where is your gig? I want to sit in on drums. My band,
The Blue$ Broker$, of the last 10+ yrs has dissolved and I am itching to play live.
Cheers
can handle it.
Where is your gig? I want to sit in on drums. My band, The Blue$ Broker$, of the last 10+ yrs has dissolved and I am itching to play live.
I had a band once.
"Big Stan & His Sheboygan Blues Band." I don't play anything well enough to BE in a band, mind you (I mess around a little on keyboard), so that's all we had -- the name. We thought it was just a really cool name, so that if we ever DID have a band, we'd have that -- the name.
We were wierd.
Puppy
She-boy??? I'm afraid to ask.
LOL.
My dad -- "Big Stan" as we call him -- is from Wisconsin, near there.
No, he wasn't in our fictitious band -- we just stole his name, cuz it sounded cool.
I had a band once. "Big Stan & His Sheboygan Blues Band." I don't play anything well enough to BE in a band, mind you (I mess around a little on keyboard), so that's all we had -- the name. We thought it was just a really cool name, so that if we ever DID have a band, we'd have that -- the name.
We were wierd.
LOL! As soon as I saw Sheboygan, I knew you had some connection to Wisconsin. Go Packers! We'll see how they do this year. I have no idea what to expect. Favre is back in Minnesota, so that drama continues.
Blue$ Broker$ - great name. I really should think about getting into a band. So much more social. This solo acoustic thing is lonely, and I don't need more of that. I know if I would get out and play more, opportunities to meet women would be plentiful.
Ok, so here's where I always get stuck. W is leaving for Disney on Friday. I'm not going. She seems to have accepted that and is making the best of it. I never mention it. I don't want to be an a$$ about it. Should I offer her anything? Help? Money? Good wishes, at least.
I am actually FROM Sheboygan!!! Was a pretty great place to grow up for me. What is it with WI towns and band names? How about John Candy's Kenosha Kicker's in Home Alone? Very nice.
Maybe I am all wet here, and I didn't mean to offend you future, but there seems to me to be a constant repeat pattern here. You have been here for so long, yet you keep taking about going to her with one last try. That is pursuing. Reread the advice others have given you. Someone said "If you continue to do this you will be here for ANOTHER year." Maybe it was Robx, I don't remember. The point is that YOU have to stop trying.
I'll tell you what Coach told me...do not offer her help or money. Stop trying to fix things unless she asks for help.
Do wish her and the kids well, then step back and wave goodbye. You have to wait for her to come to you.
I know it hurts, but it is what has to be done.
Have to remember the old DBing adage "Offer nothing, expect nothing." I will offer good wishes though, they're free.
I love the band names.
It is a good idea to try and hitch up with a band. Perhaps you could get one together, if you have friends who play various instruments. It would be a casual thing and, I guess, no-one would have to be perfect.
Yes, I agree that you should wish them fun and wave them good-bye. Tell the kids that you are so excited for them and looking forward to hearing all the stories.
As far as DB'ing ... I think you have done well. I wish I had figured out when to step back and let go. Sometimes, it seems like you are flip-flopping, but I think you are just musing about things. I remember at the beginning, you were all over the place ... so different now, and calmer, and more introspective, and stronger. If your W doesn't like you this way, then she is truly nutso!
Do you have plans for when the kids are away? Sorry, if you had said .... I don't remember, except for the possible gig.
My dad -- "Big Stan" as we call him -- is from Wisconsin, near there
Nice Polish name-- also was my fathers name and my brothers
Stosh!
Ok, so here's where I always get stuck. W is leaving for Disney on Friday. I'm not going. She seems to have accepted that and is making the best of it. I never mention it. I don't want to be an a$$ about it. Should I offer her anything? Help? Money? Good wishes, at least.
Give the kids a "holy handshake" of $20 or $40 each, as "fun money," as you say/hug them goodbye. Tell him "I"ll miss you; get something to eat or a souvenir with this, and take good care of your mother" (or "... and be good for Mommy").
That's what I would do. If I was there when they were leaving, and lifting/packing needed to be done, I'd certainly be a gentleman and help my wife.
Puppy
Just remembered your kids' ages. Maybe add "Give that to mommy to hold onto safely for you until you spend it" or something.
Maybe I am all wet here, and I didn't mean to offend you future, but there seems to me to be a constant repeat pattern here. You have been here for so long, yet you keep taking about going to her with one last try. That is pursuing. Reread the advice others have given you. Someone said "If you continue to do this you will be here for ANOTHER year." Maybe it was Robx, I don't remember. The point is that YOU have to stop trying.
Hi DanF - No offense taken at all. I come here to get advice, and I appreciate all of it. Amazing when I think of how long I have been on here. On the one hand, it's sort of depressing, but I have continued to grow and learn, so I don't really have that much problem with it.
Realize, I put all my thoughts here on this board, but very little of it is ever expressed to W. For the last year, SHE has been the one initiating all R talks. She pursued me last winter. She was the one last spring who came at me and kissed me. She was the one texting me at night inviting me over. My big mistake was not playing harder to get. I did a little, and it worked, but I gave in way too easily, giving up my power. I needed to require her to show me unequivicably that she completely removed OM from her life BEFORE I gave in. Once she thought she had me, she again started thinking she could have her cake and eat it too.
I think she's VERY surprised I'm not going to Disney. She gave me an open ivitation. She tried several angles to get me to go, without success. I appreciate that she didn't try to use sheer deceit. I have to admit, she is TRYING to be honest.
Like I said, I'm actually doing very little in terms of pursuing her, but the fact that I have all these thoughts demonstrates how involved I still am, which is what you're picking up on. I need to get back to where I'm hardly even thinking about her, or my situation.
I love the band names. It is a good idea to try and hitch up with a band. Perhaps you could get one together, if you have friends who play various instruments. It would be a casual thing and, I guess, no-one would have to be perfect.
Yes, I agree that you should wish them fun and wave them good-bye. Tell the kids that you are so excited for them and looking forward to hearing all the stories.
As far as DB'ing ... I think you have done well. I wish I had figured out when to step back and let go. Sometimes, it seems like you are flip-flopping, but I think you are just musing about things. I remember at the beginning, you were all over the place ... so different now, and calmer, and more introspective, and stronger. If your W doesn't like you this way, then she is truly nutso!
Do you have plans for when the kids are away? Sorry, if you had said .... I don't remember, except for the possible gig.
Picking a band name is so brutally hard. You always end up with the one no one objects to too loudly. Funny to hear stories from wildly successful bands, with household names, who say they were all lukewarm on the name when they started.
I will wish them well, and I will give the kids a little money. I like the "take care of your mother" line. Shows her a smidgen of affection, and leaves out the implied "since I won't be there to do it".
Thanks for your compliments about my DBing. I don't know. I think I'm a mixed bag. Strong in some ways, weak in others. You're right, most of what I post here is musing. I feel totally different from when I came here. If she asked me to go to Disney at the beginning, I would have in a heartbeat. You all would have told me not to go, but I would have justified it in all sorts of ways, went anyway, then been crushed at how it didn't pull us back together as I'd hoped.
No big plans for while they're away. Work is nuts, so I'll probably be putting in a few extra hours. I'm sure I'll have a little fun as well!
Picking a band name is so brutally hard.
I keep a running list, trying to find it.
One of my favs:
The Velveetas.
Picking a band name is so brutally hard.
I keep a running list, trying to find it.
One of my favs:
The Velveetas. Ehhh . . .kinda cheesey.
A local band is named Novacaine (all dentists)
Another is The Floaters (plumbers)
Sometimes it's better not to know...
What kind of music?
If it's campy "alternative",
"The Price of Tea in China" (Known as POTC to their imaginary fans), formerly known as "The Rocket Surgeons".
Another is The Floaters (plumbers)
I hear they do a lot of old Turdles covers, like "So Happy Together."
I was reading back over my posts from the late spring and summer. Quite a ride. I had forgotten just how affectionate and "into me" my W was. We were having so much fun, and it fell apart, and I'm not even sure why. I guess when the reality of how her A hurt me hit her, she couldn't (or didn't want to) handle it, and walled back off from me. I think it also made her see me as needy and weak, which reduced her attraction to me.
Puppy, I also saw how you compared my sitch to Hope4Us, and warned that my W would have a hard time giving up OM completely. You were right, this whole FB thing is just like that glass Hope4Us's W held onto so stubbornly. Interesting, in Hope4Us's situation, he totally hung in there, and stayed with her even while she refused to let that stuff go. In my case, I'm keeping myself at a distance until my W lets that stuff go.
Puppy, I also saw how you compared my sitch to Hope4Us, and warned that my W would have a hard time giving up OM completely. You were right, this whole FB thing is just like that glass Hope4Us's W held onto so stubbornly. Interesting, in Hope4Us's situation, he totally hung in there, and stayed with her even while she refused to let that stuff go. In my case, I'm keeping myself at a distance until my W lets that stuff go.
Yeah, but he (Hope4Us) never relented on that boundary (getting rid of her affair momentos). He' drop it for awhile, but he ALWAYS came back to it, and he never wavered on his OVERALL STANCE of "I will not live in an open marriage," and "I will not tolerate any continued contact with him."
His stance is really no less "hard-core" than mine -- he exposed even to his own KIDS, for example -- he was just remarkably more patient than almost anyone I've ever seen on here, in how long he was willing to give his wife to come around.
Puppy
I was reading back over my posts from the late spring and summer. Quite a ride. I had forgotten just how affectionate and "into me" my W was. We were having so much fun, and it fell apart, and I'm not even sure why. I guess when the reality of how her A hurt me hit her, she couldn't (or didn't want to) handle it, and walled back off from me.
My guess is "further contact with OM." I bet they were on an "on-again/off-again" trajectory that -- if you were ever able to look at it -- would neatly coincide with her demeanor towards YOU all these months.
That's just a guess, but probably an educated one.
Puppy
Yeah, but he (Hope4Us) never relented on that boundary (getting rid of her affair momentos). He' drop it for awhile, but he ALWAYS came back to it, and he never wavered on his OVERALL STANCE of "I will not live in an open marriage," and "I will not tolerate any continued contact with him."
His stance is really no less "hard-core" than mine -- he exposed even to his own KIDS, for example -- he was just remarkably more patient than almost anyone I've ever seen on here, in how long he was willing to give his wife to come around.
From what I remember, he kept asking her to get rid of the glass, but she kept refusing. He didn't give any consequences, just kept hanging in there and waiting. He did insist on no contact, but it didn't seem to be a problem, since the OM in his case was a scumbag who was already hooked up with one or more other women, if I remember right. He was incredibly patient, and had some very hard conversations with her.
My guess is "further contact with OM." I bet they were on an "on-again/off-again" trajectory that -- if you were ever able to look at it -- would neatly coincide with her demeanor towards YOU all these months.
That's just a guess, but probably an educated one.
My W and her OM were on-again/off-again starting way back in spring of last year, getting more and more off as time whent on, from what my intel told me, to his unwillingness to move here. He kept trying to end it, and she kept throwing herself at him and giving him more leeway, which he took advantage of. I was suspicious of contact over the summer, but I don't necessarily think there was two way contact this summer, until she called him. I think our talk about her A brought it up in her mind, and when she realized she'd have to erradicate him from her life, she went and perused her photos and mementos, and his FB page, and got set back that way. That seems to fit what I saw anyway.
Went to see W and kids off this morning, for their Disneyworld trip. Went ok. I was upbeat, and I gave each of the kids some money. I told them to take care of each other, and to take care of Mommy. I got the chorus of "I wish you were coming with us!", "If you and Mommy were together, you'd be coming with us", etc.
W was nice, but quiet, and clearly off a bit. After loading up the kids in the car, she gave me a big sad hug, and said "I wish you were coming with us." I quietly replied "Me too."
I was a little sad on my drive to work, but not too bad. I've got plans for tonight and tomorrow, so I won't be sitting around moping.
Amazing how things change over time. I don't think I ever posted here about the other Disneyworld plans we had. It was almost two years ago. Our M was really bad. Unknown to me, W had a torrid EA going with OM, via phone, webcam, IM, e-mail, texting, etc. All from her office or in our home while I was at work. In an effort to do a 180, I proposed we all take a trip to Disneyworld, something I would have never done before. W was always the one who planned our vacations. W's face lit up, and she said it was a great idea. So I planned the trip, bought the plane tickets, and made the reservations.
In the weeks that followed, W's behavior was becoming increasingly bizarre, and two weeks before we were to leave I checked her home e-mail account. All was made clear. Needless to say, we didn't go on the trip. I ate about two grand worth of tickets and reservations. She actually had the gall to suggest I take the kids to Disneyworld alone, and she would go visit OM to "find out if it's real". Wow. I was in no shape to take a trip by myself with the kids, and I told her if she went to see OM she wasn't welcome to come back home. She backed down, and we limped through a few more weeks before she moved out. Worst time of my life, by far.
Now here we are almost two years later, SHE makes the plans to go to Disneyworld, buys me a plane ticket, wants me to go, and I'm the one refusing. Strange days indeed.
Geez future 2 years? how old are the kiddos??
The kids are 5, 7, and 9 now. I feel most bad for my son, the nine year old. W and the girls have plans to do all the Disney princess things, and he'll be dragged along. He's getting to the age where he's really bored by that stuff. He has no one to do cool boy things with, and even if W wanted to do some with him, she can't leave the girls alone. He's the one really getting the raw deal by my not going. We would have had a blast. Sucks.
YA I can understand why he would not want to do the princess stuff. My 2 are 5 and 3 S is the oldest. We have only been living apart over a week and he doesnt like being away from daddy. Hang in there buddy enjoy your weekend.
Went to see W and kids off this morning, for their Disneyworld trip. Went ok. I was upbeat, and I gave each of the kids some money. I told them to take care of each other, and to take care of Mommy. I got the chorus of "I wish you were coming with us!", "If you and Mommy were together, you'd be coming with us", etc.
W was nice, but quiet, and clearly off a bit. After loading up the kids in the car, she gave me a big sad hug, and said "I wish you were coming with us." I quietly replied "Me too."
I was a little sad on my drive to work, but not too bad. I've got plans for tonight and tomorrow, so I won't be sitting around moping.
Amazing how things change over time. I don't think I ever posted here about the other Disneyworld plans we had. It was almost two years ago. Our M was really bad. Unknown to me, W had a torrid EA going with OM, via phone, webcam, IM, e-mail, texting, etc. All from her office or in our home while I was at work. In an effort to do a 180, I proposed we all take a trip to Disneyworld, something I would have never done before. W was always the one who planned our vacations. W's face lit up, and she said it was a great idea. So I planned the trip, bought the plane tickets, and made the reservations.
In the weeks that followed, W's behavior was becoming increasingly bizarre, and two weeks before we were to leave I checked her home e-mail account. All was made clear. Needless to say, we didn't go on the trip. I ate about two grand worth of tickets and reservations. She actually had the gall to suggest I take the kids to Disneyworld alone, and she would go visit OM to "find out if it's real". Wow. I was in no shape to take a trip by myself with the kids, and I told her if she went to see OM she wasn't welcome to come back home. She backed down, and we limped through a few more weeks before she moved out. Worst time of my life, by far.
Now here we are almost two years later, SHE makes the plans to go to Disneyworld, buys me a plane ticket, wants me to go, and I'm the one refusing. Strange days indeed.
Well done, Future -- then
AND now.
Puppy
Thanks Puppy.
You know, I've often wondered how the last couple years would have been different had I been able to enforce solid boundaries back then. After I discovered her A, what if I had cancelled our joint credit cards, closed our joint checking account, cancelled her cell phone (which was on our FAMILY plan), blocked her Internet access from our home, or even had her clothes packed up and said she had to move out? What if I had threatened full exposure to our families? Immediately filed for D?
I KNOW she would have crumbled and come back begging me to take her back. No doubt about that, but it's the weeks and months that follow I wonder about. There is NO WAY she would have let go of OM so easily. No way. She was completely convinced the universe brought them back together, soulmates from across the world, blah, blah, blah. Assuming I did let her back, and after she felt secure again, I imagine she would have started preparing her exit again, this time being very careful and secretive. She probably would have gotten a separate cell phone to contact him. When she thought she had everything set, she would have then hit me with a giant bomb, perhaps far more destructive than what ended up happening. Who knows?
OM in this case is not married, so I couldn't expose on his end, but he does have his own business. I did consider threatening some sort of Internet exposure to the customers of his business. I am sure he would have went running for the hills, but so much of the advice I was getting said to ignore him and deal with my W.
As time has gone by, I've let go of these "fantasies" about a stronger response by me back then, but sometimes I still wonder. Sometimes I think things happened just the way they were supposed to, to bring us to where we are.
Man, that's an awful lot of "what-if's." Don't beat yourself up, you have no way of knowing. Besides, maybe YOU wouldn't have been ready to be the "New-and-Improved Future" then that you are now, and you wouldn't have been reconcilation-worthy, kwim??
Puppy
Yeah, a lot of what-ifs. I'm not beating myself up any more, just wanted to dump them all out here. After reading about affairs, and what happens inside the betrayed spouse's brain, I know there is no way I could have been that strong. Wasn't capable of it, so I'm letting go of all those what-ifs.
There was a movie back ten years ago or so called "Fearless" about some people who survived a plane crash. A woman was heartbroken because she survived, but her infant son, who she was carrying in her lap, was killed. She beat herself up, kept saying she didn't hold onto him tight enough, and he died because she failed. Finally her friend strapped her in the passenger seat of his car, gave her a bag of flour and told her to hold onto it as tight as she could, then purposely crashed the car at high speed into a brick wall. The bag of flour flew out of her arms and smashed against the dashboard, finally convincing her that it wasn't her fault. She wasn't capable of holding onto her baby when the plane crashed. She could let go of her guilt. Awesome movie.
Besides, maybe YOU wouldn't have been ready to be the "New-and-Improved Future" then that you are now, and you wouldn't have been reconcilation-worthy, kwim??
Exactly! :-)
YA I can understand why he would not want to do the princess stuff. My 2 are 5 and 3 S is the oldest. We have only been living apart over a week and he doesnt like being away from daddy. Hang in there buddy enjoy your weekend.
Thanks dsh4320! Being seperated from our kids is something I don't think I'll ever feel is anything other than WRONG.
W is e-mailing me pictures of their time at Disneyworld. Not a lot, just a few showing what they're doing each day. Looking at them hurts a little, no doubt. Talked with the kids on the phone last night. Son sounded a little down, and the first thing he said was "Dad, I wish you could be here at Disney with us." I said "I wish I could too, I'll go with you sometime, ok?" They'll be back Wednesday, and I'm looking forward to this being over.
Hi Future,
I've wondered about the throwing the stuff on the front lawn approach too, and whether that would have been more effective. It might have been. But its probably not far enough...like drinking or doing drugs, the OTHER person has to feel like they've hit bottom, I think, for that to work.
My XH was extremely depressed at that time--and I know he is still very depressed. The slow reality of his life alone and with OW is catching up with him. Maybe a fast reality would have been more effective--I don't know. But I think he would have ended up "drinking" in secret, like your W. Setting up everything to continue living a double life. The rush was just too much.
In the end, I feel like you have to walk away feeling in your heart like you did everything you knew how to do to keep your family together. Future, from your posts and your ongoing saga, you have done everything you know how to do. Maybe its not perfect, but it seems like you've tried just about everything you can think of. I think at that point, its not the "trying to think of something else" that will change the situation. You've got a W who is entrenched in her own issues. She doesn't want to lose you or her family, but she wants to "flirt" and date other men. She needs that rush. That's really not compatible with commitment.
P.S. I think for the kids' sake, the "wishing" isn't good--i.e. telling them you wish you were at DW. It will give them the idea that people don't control their choices. Its probably confusing for them. If you wish you were there, why didn't you go? Either--"I'll take you myself sometime" or "You and me will take a different trip together sometime" might be a better reply.
Hi musclegal-
I'm not "thinking of something else" to try anymore. I'm not dwelling on "saving my marriage" anymore. I'm pretty happy living my life. I do enjoy spending time with my W though, and I think we could have a good life together if she works through her issues. Everything she's done and said tells me she is trying. The reality is, she's not over OM yet, and I'm not over her yet, but I'm very close. Until those two things happen, I think we'll be in this limbo. When they do happen, I think we have a shot. I've completely pulled away from her again, but this time it was easy, and I didn't need anger to give me strength. She's not treating me very well any more, so I'm gone. If nothing else, her behavior toward me earlier this summer reminded me how I should be treated. She WAS getting that "rush" from me, let's see if I can get her back to feeling it. I'm not sure she does need it from other men. I think she just needs it from one man, but it has to be a man that doesn't get captured easily. If I want to be with her, I have to be that man.
Yeah, maybe telling my son I wished I could be there wasn't the best choice of words. His reaction was ok though. He knows I'd be there if his Mom and I were together.
Bad turn in my situation.
This morning was the first day of school. Kids were with W, and I went over to her house to see youngest daughter off to kindergarten. After the kids left, I asked W if she'd be agreeable to changing the schedule to full alternating weekends. Our schedule for the first 18 months was split weekends, but for July and August I agreed to give her every other Sunday, as part of our effort to reconcile. Probably a mistake, but we were spending so much time together, I felt it was okay to be generous.
Now that school is started, I thought we'd be going back to the same old split schedule, so I suggested going to full alternating weekends instead. First W said "My heart is hurting because of D going to school, can we talk about this later? We should meet to talk about a lot of things, and that can be part of it." I said "Ok." The dog was barking in her crate, so I asked if I could go see her, and W said sure.
I played with the dog for a minute or two, then I walked back out to her kitchen. W said "Wouldn't it just be easier to leave things the way they are, since the kids have activities on Saturday morning? What do you want to change things for?" I said "I just thought that since I never get a Friday night with the kids, and you never get a Sunday with them that it would be more fair to go to full alternating weekends. Then it's even." W said "I get every other Sunday now." I said "That was only for July and August." She said "No, we agreed to a three month trial, to see how the kids would do with it, and in my opinion, they're doing well with it." I could see this was going to go very bad, but I didn't want to back down. I said "I gave you those four days in July and August because you asked for them." Then W started getting quite angry. She said "You are not the absolute authority in everything. Your memory is not the only one here. I remember us saying three months. As usual, you are making this about you and me, and not about the kids. I hate your attitude that you GAVE me those four days. It was supposed to be what was best for the kids." I got a little agitated and said "It was just for July and August." Then she got her wounded puppy attitude going and said "Thank you so much for this." I said "You asked if we could talk about it later, and I said ok." She sarcastically replied, quietly, like she was only talking to herself, but of course loud enough so I could hear "It's all my fault, of course." I tried to defuse the situation, and said "W, we're only really arguing about whether it was two months or three months, I remember two months." Then she said "Please leave, I have to get to work." I was feeling very threatened regarding my custody. As we walked out to the cars and I said "I am not going to accept less than 50/50 custody." She got in her car and said "Bye."
What the h*ll is going on? The fixer in me wants to send a defusing message, something like "What are you so angry about?" or "Can we agree to meet and talk before getting entrenched in our positions?" I know that's my "nice guy" tendancies showing, so I'm fighting against them.
She has such anger seething under the surface. She seemed very threatened this morning. Is this all because I pulled away from her? Is it because she thinks I'm dating someone else? Was this her plan all along, to get me to agree to a change in schedule for the summer, then try to make it permanent?
Comments? Suggestions?
She's baiting you. Don't bite. Don't let her anger/frustration become that of your own.
These hot-button topics are best left for the attorneys, or a good mediator.
She told you it wasn't a good day; you should've stood down.
Puppy
Future - Sorry to hear what happened, but hopefully now you have learned your lesson about being nice. I was the same way and agreed to let her have oour daughter sunday nights as a "favor" Ha then when I got a letter from her attorney saying she should be given custodialship because she had her "65%" of the time leaving me with "45%" even though we had the same schedule other then the few hours after the 6pm sunday exchange. I lost it.
I told my attorney to put the "original" schedule in
writing and I no longer agree to her keeping her every sunday especially when I found out it was a ploy to gain position.
My advice, decide what YOU want and fight for it. Forget Mr. Nice guy until she shows you the same RESPECT you were showing her. Dont be mean, but matter-of-fact, business only mentality.
Part of the WAS mentality is "ENTITLEMENT" it is our job of the LBS to pop that "FANTASY BUBBLE" as fast as we can.
Hold the line. PMA
Part of the WAS mentality is "ENTITLEMENT" . . .
BINGO.BINGO, BINGO, BINGO --
BINGO!!!Puppy
Well waddaya know? Once again, W surprised me. She called me a while ago, very contrite and respectful. She apologized for letting her fear control her actions this morning. She said she knows she acted badly, and that she is determined to concentrate on what's good in her and between us. I apologized in turn, and said I should have seen that she wasn't in a good place to discuss the schedule, and should have insisted that we put it off for another day. She thanked me for that, then said she knows I'm a good loving father, and that she still loves me. She said "We made a good step forward this summer, and I don't want to lose that. I'm frustrated by how we fall into our old dynamic." I said "This phone call isn't our old dynamic." She laughed and said "You're right!"
We agreed that we'd schedule a time to talk about the custody schedule. She said "I truly believe we can make this work between us." I think she was just referring to the custody schedule, and not our M in general.
This is how she's changed. Our interaction this morning was so reminscent of our old M. She'd feel threatened in some way, and start all her emotional manipulation games, acting like I was bullying her, acting wounded, pouting, witholding, etc. In the past I would always fall for it, and eventually go back to her with my tail between my legs. She'd withhold herself and "punish" me until she felt she had the power back, then she'd let me off the hook. Now, I'm holding tough and not falling for her little games, and she's the one coming to me with her tail between her legs. It gives me some hope for our M.
Please be careful, Future. It is EXTREMELY common for a wayward, once on a formal legal track, to careen wildly between bile and nicey-nice, trying alternately to see what "works" to get what they want.
Yes, this may be some newfound respect for you, but it's also very likely that it's gamesmanship.
Puppy
I hear you Puppy. I've learned my lesson. I know what she's capable of. I will not yield on my 50/50 custody. Whatever games she plays I'm not yielding on it, so that should show her true colors. She's only going to have two paths to get more time with her kids, either try to get a judge to take the kids away from me (very poor chance of success), or reconcile our marriage. She knows what I need to reconcile our marriage. Whether she's capable and/or willing to do it, who knows?
I will say she's been almost entirely nicey-nice for the last several months. In fact, this morning was the first time I'd seen any bile from her in a long time. My gut tells me she's sincerely trying, but my guard is still up.
My attny was very strong in his stance that once one spouse sues the other for something the odds are VERY high it will happen again. He was more speaking along the lines of reconciling and not the initial phases of a separation or divorce.
And I also agree w/Puppy (re: nice/mean flip flopping). My H does the same thing. This week he is "nice" because we are getting down to the wire and he knows our final dissolution is around the corner.
What the two of you decide to do as far as your marriage goes will probably take some time to figure out. IMO the subject of the children should be handled by attnys (or at least guided by an attny). She sued you once and it's not unlikely it will happen again.
I do realize that since she's pulled the lawsuit trigger, it'll be that much easier for her to pull it again.
W e-mailed me and asked if I'd go to lunch with her next Monday to chat. I said ok.
After reading on another thread here, something occurred to me. W ocassionally exposes her guilt to me, and I'm not sure how to respond to it. I don't want to enthusiastically agree with her when she's showing me her guilt. What is the most constructive way to reply?
For example, back in the summer when we were in the middle of our reconciliation effort, we went to see fireworks with the kids. Some of my single friends were there, in fact it was the first time W met them, and she was clinging to me a bit out of nervousness. I felt good, and thought I was putting out a strong mellow vibe. Kids were having a great time, weather was awesome, fireworks were good, etc.
On the way out I passed by one of the older guys I work with, who was there with his wife. A really great guy. He had never met my W before, and knows nothing of my sitch (at least showed me I haven't been the subject of office rumor mill). He enthusiastically said hi, and we introduced each other to our wives. We had a brief friendly interaction, and as we walked away he said to my W something like "Hold onto him, he's a good man." Was nice to hear. She smiled at me and replied "I know."
After we walked a little ways, W was acting unsure, and asks "What was it like hearing your friend say that to me?" I just replied "It felt good." Then she said with a nervous joking tone "He obviously doesn't know the truth about me." I kind of chuckled in response, but didn't say anything.
What am I supposed to say to statements like that? It's becoming clear to me how guilty she feels, inside. She tries to fight it, but it leaks out. I felt like she wanted something from me, but I didn't know what to say. Humor is probably the right answer. Perhaps if I joked back "Nope, I've never told him that you leave the cap off the toothpaste" or something like that.
"Nope, I've never told him that you leave the cap off the toothpaste"
I would have said exactly that.
Then she said with a nervous joking tone "He obviously doesn't know the truth about me."
Let her know you haven't been spreading mess about her.
"the only ones who I have talked to about our problems are _________________. Our problems are our problems. I will not let anyone run you down. If you are on my arm you walk with your head held high."
I sounds like she is looking for some safety.
I get that same feeling, that she's looking for safety. How can I give her that safety, while simultaneously allowing her to feel the consequences of her actions? My "nice guy" tendancies want to rescue her, but I'm making an effort to break away from all that.
My friends have all treated her with very much respect, so she has no real reason to assume they'll run her down, other than her own guilt.
I get that same feeling, that she's looking for safety. How can I give her that safety, while simultaneously allowing her to feel the consequences of her actions? My "nice guy" tendancies want to rescue her, but I'm making an effort to break away from all that.
My friends have all treated her with very much respect, so she has no real reason to assume they'll run her down, other than her own guilt.
Are you responsible for how she feels? Codependent.
Let her cope with her guilt.
I didn't say I was responsible for how she feels. I said her own guilt is fueling this notion that my friends and family will treat her badly.
I'm trying to figure out how to react when she shows me her guilt, if we are to reconcile (a BIG if).
I said her own guilt is fueling this notion that my friends and family will treat her badly.
How do you know it isn't just [reasonable] fear?
****Mindreading**** First time I called it today
I do realize that since she's pulled the lawsuit trigger, it'll be that much easier for her to pull it again.
W e-mailed me and asked if I'd go to lunch with her next Monday to chat. I said ok.
My god, Future, have you learned NOTHING in your time on here????
Puppy
What am I supposed to say to statements like that?
You should have said with tongue in cheek..
"He OBVIOUSLY doesn't know the truth about ME either"...
Chuckle... Then move on and change the subject....
I'm trying to figure out how to react when she shows me her guilt, if we are to reconcile (a BIG if).
You are wandering down the wrong road yet again...
This ALL has to do with her FEELINGS. She does NOT feel strong enough feelings for you. It has nothing to do with guilt. Guilt is the excuse. The reality is her feelings.
You continue to make a complicated issue out of something rather simple.. WHEN a woman has the right feelings for you she will help you move mountains, rob banks with you and follow you to the end of the earth..
When she DOES NOT have the right feelings, you get what your woman is giving you.. A CONSTANT RUN AROUND.
Until she feels dumped and until you can make her really really believe that she has waited TOO LONG.. (in other words NOW her guilt is REAL because it is TOO LATE) is as long as this is going to go on...
How sad to watch you struggle when the answer is right before you but you just don't have the self confidence to show her just HOW strong you really are... How sad..
You really don't need this woman. You should be out having the time of your life. You should be done posting on this site. You just don't seem to get it. You are heading on close to TWO YEARS on this site man.. Come on.. Man up. Get with the progam.. Enough is enough.. This isn't rocket science. She doesn't have the right feelings for you and NEVER will until YOU let her feel that you are done and it is over and now SHE can't have it back because it is YOU that doesn't want it... Wise up here.
Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My god, Future, have you learned NOTHING in your time on here????
I guess not, since I'm not sure what you mean. We currently have a disagreement as to our custody schedule. It needs to be resolved ASAP. Right now I literally do not know when we will be transitioning the kids. Before our argument she asked if we could get together to discuss it. When she called after our argument she again asked if we could get together to discuss it. What am I supposed to say? Refuse? That just encourages her to escalate to the legal system. Put her off? Why?
I'm through playing the games. She knows I have a life. I almost never answer her calls, I take hours or days to answer her texts and e-mails, and not because of a game, but because I'm busy. I never initiate contact except for kid issues, and I keep them to that. We were regularly meeting for lunch on Mondays all summer, so she knows my schedule is open then. I want to get this resolved, and if we can't come to an agreement, it's time for the lawyers to take over. I can't live like this anymore.
This ALL has to do with her FEELINGS. She does NOT feel strong enough feelings for you. It has nothing to do with guilt. Guilt is the excuse. The reality is her feelings.
WHEN a woman has the right feelings for you she will help you move mountains, rob banks with you and follow you to the end of the earth.
Sure seemed like her feelings were very strong back then. She was all over me, calling me all the time, always wanted to be with me, was willing to walk into the unknown of my social group. It was HER insecurity that led to those comments by her. She wanted to impress me, wanted me to feel good being with her, and when my friend said that, it seemed to cause her to doubt herself, and she looked to me for something, and I wasn't sure what to do.
You really don't need this woman. You should be out having the time of your life. You should be done posting on this site. You just don't seem to get it. You are heading on close to TWO YEARS on this site man.. Come on.. Man up. Get with the progam.. Enough is enough.. This isn't rocket science. She doesn't have the right feelings for you and NEVER will until YOU let her feel that you are done and it is over and now SHE can't have it back because it is YOU that doesn't want it... Wise up here.
No, I don't need her. I've been living my life for almost two years without her. I have a very active social life, I do a great job taking care of the kids. I stay on this site because I appreciate the advice of folks here. Unfortunately, because of my kids, I have to see my W all the time, keeping that relationship on some sort of life support. I journal what's happening for my own benefit. I've had periods when my interest moved to someone else, but they didn't pan out. Trust me, if and when I meet the right woman, I'll be done and not look back.
You are right, when she thought she lost me, that's when she really came after me. Very hard for me to make a game of it when my kids latched onto that with all they had, and hoped Mom and Dad were getting back together. They seem to have more influence on me than they do on her. Fact of life.
As for two years on this site, as long as I'm learning and growing, I have no problem with it. I'm realizing more and more how incredibly poor my marriage was, and how far I need to get before I'm in the right place to have a good marriage. If that takes two or more years, that's ok with me.
Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My god, Future, have you learned NOTHING in your time on here????
I guess not, since I'm not sure what you mean. We currently have a disagreement as to our custody schedule. It needs to be resolved ASAP. Right now I literally do not know when we will be transitioning the kids. Before our argument she asked if we could get together to discuss it. When she called after our argument she again asked if we could get together to discuss it. What am I supposed to say? Refuse? That just encourages her to escalate to the legal system. Put her off? Why?
You're BUSY, and mysterious, and interesting -- remember? This makes it look like you're just hanging around, waiting for her call.
DBing 101.Puppy
Just got back from our meeting. Went well, although sad. W asked if we could keep today's talk to just about the custody schedule. I said ok.
W agreed to 50/50 custody. She asked if we could have trust in each other that if one of the kids needs a little extra time with one of us, that we'd be agreeable to informal "flexing" of the schedule on a per child basis, as in ocassionally giving each other "solo" time with each of the kids. I said ok, but I said I wanted our agreement in writing. In fact, I said if we had an agreed upon written custody arrangement, I'd be MORE relaxed about the schedule, not less, because I'd know I could always fall back on our written agreement. She understood, and said if I wrote up what we verbally agreed on, she'd be fine with it.
She was sad during the whole talk, and I was too. I said I was tired of not having a set custody arrangement, and I was tired of us arguing and fighting about it. She defended us and said "We haven't been fighting or arguing. We've been doing well, up until you asked to change the schedule." She smiled and said "You just have bad timing."
There were long pregnant pauses, where each of us was avoiding talking about our R. We successfully avoided it. W asked if we could meet next week to talk about "us". We walked out together, and when we got to the cars, she reached out and hugged me long and hard. The hug just went on and on, almost stopping, then she'd grab hold again. I finally pulled back and ended it, we said goodbye and that was it. I'm glad we will hopefully be able to get a 50/50 custody arrangement in writing.
The good news is I was nervous today, but not only because of the meeting. A couple weeks ago I ran into a young guy I met at one of my open mic performances. He was very complimentary to me, and he asked if I'd like to play a few songs together. I said sure. We met over the weekend and threw around some ideas, then settled on three songs. We're scheduled to play at the open mic night together on Wednesday. I've got my work cut out for me preparing, and I'm nervous about it. Should be an extremely cool set if we can pull it off. We're schedule to play an old Bill Monroe bluegrass tune called "Love Please Come Home", a very cool Funkadelic song from the 70's called "Can You Get to That" (on two acoustic guitars, no less!), and "Mother" by Pink Floyd, which is beyond awesome. The kid is half my age, and he's into all this old music! Writes his own tunes as well, very good stuff. Word has gotten out, and like everyone I know is planning on going to watch. Not too much pressure! I was considering telling W about it today, but I decided not to.
Now I just need to remember all the words to "Mother". Do you think they'll drop the bomb?
I think I probably screwed up last night, not about my "sitch", as that's fading into the distance, but rather just for ME. W had to come over to drop off some forms for the kids for school. I've been rehearsing like crazy trying to get ready for my gig tonight. I was playing when she showed up, but I stopped and went to exchange stuff. I kept the exchange very short, because I wanted to get back to rehearsing.
While W was in my kitchen, she revealed her latent curiosity about what's going with me by scanning my counter, and zeroing in on a little piece of paper with my song list on it. She says "Wow, Funkadelic?" I tried to make little of it, and said "Just a few songs I'm working on." She said "Do you have a plan to play out at <bar name> any time soon?" I am a horrible liar, and it seemed so silly to purposely not tell her, so I smiled and said "Well... actually... I'll be playing tomorrow night." Her face lit up and she said "What?! Well, um, would you mind if I went to watch?" I paused for a bit, then said "Oh, I guess that would be ok." I smiled and said "It'll just add to the strangeness of the whole situation." I told her about the young kid I'll be playing with.
I wasn't very excited about her going. I feel like it's something in MY life, and I'm not sure I want her invading it. But, she seemed like she sincerely wanted to support me, so I agreed. I even asked if she wanted to hear what I've been working on, and she said sure. It wasn't that I wanted to perform for HER. I strangely felt like I just wanted to plop someone on the sofa as a surrogate audience, and she was there. I'm very nervous about performing, and I wanted to try to play in front of someone. I played "Mother" for her, and made it through without a hitch, so I was pleased. That tune has bloody 5/4 time in some sections! She said I sounded great, and I'd do well, then went to leave. She reiterated before she left "You sure you're ok with me going?" I said "It's ok, I don't mind." She could hear hesitation in my voice, and she said "If you decide you don't want me to, you have to let me know before I get home, because I'm gonna start texting and calling and getting a group together to go!" She asked "Who's going to be going on your end?" I said "There will be a group from work, and a bunch of friends." She started digging a bit for info, but I was evasive. She let it go, and we said goodbye.
I suppose it feels a little good to be pursued, but I don't know why she's pursuing. Whatever. I've got more important things to worry about! Like remembering lyrics!
Damn right it feels good. Dude!! U r fighting for your R/M. She is interested. She is possibly attracted. What da heck is wrong w that??? u did great. Just flirt w the hot groupies and you're golden.
Damn right it feels good. Dude!! U r fighting for your R/M. She is interested. She is possibly attracted. What da heck is wrong w that??? u did great. Just flirt w the hot groupies and you're golden.
I just feel like "whatever" regarding her pursuit. I'm done fighting for my R/M, because it's a losing fight. What I AM fighting for is my own d*mn happiness, and my kids' happiness. Whether that includes her or not, we'll see.
Nothing is wrong with her interest and attraction, but I'm not acting like it's some precious gift anymore. Several other single women are coming out to see me play tonight. Should be a great time.
You're in the right place. Keep it up. The Cat has become the mouse.
Damn right it feels good. Dude!! U r fighting for your R/M. She is interested. She is possibly attracted. What da heck is wrong w that??? u did great. Just flirt w the hot groupies and you're golden.
DB seriously needs a "LOL" button/LOL smileyface.
Future, you are doing VERY well. And I know this because of this statement:
I wasn't very excited about her going. I feel like it's something in MY life, and I'm not sure I want her invading it.
::highfive::
Dedicate the song to your GF named <insert name other than your W's name here>. LOL!
I'm kidding (and mean, I know!)
You sound better... good luck tonight!
Last night was awesome. W didn't end up coming. She sent me a text saying she she couldn't get anyone to go with her! Ha! I was relieved.
About a dozen of my friends showed up and we all had a great time waiting until our turn up on stage. The feeling was so fun and supportive, my nerves were virtually nonexistent. The fact that I was playing with another guy took an enormous amount of pressure off me.
Earlier yesterday I decided to change my look, and I went out and got a very short haircut, shorter than I've ever had. Essentially like a military cut, and I got a subtley flashy but cool shirt to wear. When the ladies showed up I got comments like "Look at you! You look like a rock star!" One woman was flirting and hitting on me endlessly, and two others were vying for my attention. Felt d*mn good.
Finally our time arrived and we went on stage. Was a blast. The crowd was cheering and singing along. We ended up doing two extra songs. Folks said we were like father and son up there. As we neared the end of the song "Mother" I got a wave of relief as I realized I was going to make it through the song without forgetting any of the lyrics. My young partner got the crowd rocking with his funk tunes. Really great time.
Afterwards, the woman who was flirting so much had to leave, but a short while later she texted me, saying "You did great, and you looked d*mn sexy up there". A 25-ish year old woman came up to me and introduced herself and wanted to hang with me. Life is good...
Nice job!! It's all about the PMA Baby!!!
Sounds like a really fun time
Cool!
I wrote up a fairly detailed custody agreement and e-mailed it to W yesterday afternoon. As usual, no response. Whenever I write something up, she always reacts negatively. It was a completely detailed custody agreement, handling our basic 50/50 split schedule, holidays, birthdays, vacations, etc. Nothing different than what we've been living under, and what I thought we agreed to last week. It clearly stated that we alternate full weekends, starting when the kids leave school on Fridays. Last week she said she didn't want the kids to have to remember which bus to take home on Friday, so she wanted them to always take the bus to her house, and have me pick them up there after work on my weekends. I told her I'd pick the kids up from school on my Fridays so they wouldn't have to remember the bus. She was a little surprised, then said "Oh, I guess that would be ok."
We had curriculum night at our kids' school last night, and I saw her there. She was a mix of friendly and standoffish. For weeks now I've been getting this vibe of supressed anger from her. She asked me "What time do you want to pick up the kids Friday?" I gave a puzzled look and said "I'll pick them up from school, like we talked about." She got angry and said "I never agreed to that." I said "That's what we talked about last week. She again said "We talked about it, but I never agreed to it. I have plans with the kids after school Friday. Can you pick them up at 5:30?" I said "Ok, but we need to get this resolved." She said "I don't want to argue about it now. I'll see you later." Then she walked away.
I was annoyed, but I wasn't going to force a conversation there in the school, so I finished talking with the teachers, then left. On my drive home she called and asked if she could come over to discuss it. I said ok.
She arrived at my house a few minutes later, and we went and sat down. She has been quite sick for the last several weeks, and it's not getting better. I felt a little sorry for her, but it didn't affect my position. She was irate, and said "H, I know you want this exact 50/50 plan, with everything split perfectly, but the kids are doing well, and I don't want to mess with it too much. I'm fine with us SAYING we have an exact 50/50 schedule on paper, as long as you allow a little flexibility. I think it would be better for them to see me for an hour or two on Fridays before you take them for five days. I admit I want to see them too, but I really think it'll be better for them. I'll have brownies for them." What a bizarre thing to say. I said "I just want us to have a fixed 50/50 plan in place that we can rely on." She said "That's the mathematician in you talking, everything doesn't have to be exact, alternating years on holidays (referring to my written plan), every day totally scheduled. I'm trying to be flexible and compromise here. Why can't you? I think the kids would be better off staying with me until Saturday morning, but I'm trying to keep this out of court, so I'm willing to agree to you picking them up Fridays at my house. I think it's important they see me for a little extra time before they leave for so long. I want to give the kids the best situation for them. Don't you?" I'm holding my tongue, trying not to point out that an intact family is what's best for the kids, or make some remark about how NOW she's so concerned about the kids. I know that would only inflame the situation, so I resist. I say "I think it would be better if the transitions are handled through school. It'll be a buffer." She was again annoyed. She said "If we were toxic and angry with each other, then sure, I'd agree, but we're not. I think we can handle seeing each other twice a month."
She finally made a valid point. She said "You know, since you always have the kids on Mondays, you'll get an ocassional day off with them that I won't get, like Columbus Day. Do you want to split all that time exactly too?" I backed off a bit and said "Good point. Ok, I'll think about this for a few days." She looked relieved and said "Thank you for doing that." Then she smiles and says "Now, what do you want for your birthday? That's what I'm doing with the kids after school Friday. I'm taking them shopping for your birthday present." I was a little touched, and I gave her a couple ideas. We discussed a few scheduling things, and then we both left. My friends were throwing me a little birthday party, and I was late. We had a great time. One of the women in my group of friends is showing increasing interest in me. Feels good, but it's complicating things even more!
W is trying to keep a composed and faux friendly demeanor toward me, but I can sense this undercurrent of anger from her. I don't know why. Unlike the last time I really pulled away from her, I'm still staying basically courteous, and being communicative about the kids. I give her nothing else though, and I assume she's noticed I've thrown myself back into my single social life.
F - Nice going. All I can say is keep on holding your ground. Keep on trying to get everything in writing. Remember she is all about ENTITLEMENT. My X was the same way. I dont want to be away from her for 5 days blah blah, but its ok for me to be??? Like my X she might have daddy issues and not trust your role as father.... just keep in back of yr head.
Back to transitions, definitely fight for transitions at school. Trust me you dont want to keep on meeting in a walmart parking lot or pick them up at her house when her boyfriend opens the door. F that! All transitions happen to and from school or else it will eventually become TOXIC. She just doesnt get that now but thats only because she is getting what she wants.
Hold the line. PMA
Future,
I only have a moment, but I just wanted to say, that I do think your wife's positions sound reasonable to my outside eye/ear. And her tone (at least how you describe it) sounds fairly respectful and civil, too, considering the strain of having to negotiate such a painful thing for the both of you.
Puppy
She is being basically civil and respectful, but there is an undercurrent of entitlement that is aggravating. I skipped the statement she made of "I'm their mother, and I think they'd be better off spending more time with me. From what I've seen, they've been doing better since they've been with me more." She did give back though, saying "Son does need more time with you though. They all need more one on one time with both of us." Then she said "I'd even say..." I replied "What?" She broke eye contact and said "No, never mind."
I might agree to pick the kids up at her place Fridays, with the caveat that I reserve the right to stop if the situation becomes unworkable for me.
Like my X she might have daddy issues and not trust your role as father.... just keep in back of yr head.
I never really thought of that, but her Dad wasn't very present in her life, and he did leave when she was a teenager. Her Mom recently told me that W's father only ever came to one of W's horse competitions, out of dozens, when she was a kid. I will keep that in mind, although I'm not sure what to do about it.
Future - Again. Im so sorry your dealing with this. Just reading your post brings back so many bad/sad memories of having to FIGHT FOR MY RIGHTS. Sux but heed my warnings about her "father issues". Like my X she will probably say that she "thinks you are a great dad... I would never want to keep them from you.." but then her subconscience is telling her. "but remember your the MOTHER YOU CANT TRUST THE FATHER... blah blah"
How to use it??? Well hopefully it doesnt come to that like I had to... threats I mean... When my X started playing dirty (false claim with DCFS, called teachers, friends) I was forced to protect myself by threatening to bring up her past with the court appointed custody evaluator... luckily it didnt come to that. We did get a guardian ad litem appointed after we both ended up filing a petition for full. Was part of process. I didnt think it would go there BUT once I stopped agreeing to everything she wanted... (her keeping daughter every sunday night, and other examples) it got dirty.
So just keep it in mind. The best advice I give friends that are dealing with these sitches is to treat your WAS that is not playing FAIR/THREATENING,etc like a cop treats a perp. Take it to their level. If you are RESPECTFUL/CIVIL then so am I. If you file for full custody then so do I.
It's a chess match that eventually all gets knocked over. It's how you pick up the pieces that really matters...
She finally made a valid point. She said "You know, since you always have the kids on Mondays, you'll get an ocassional day off with them that I won't get, like Columbus Day. Do you want to split all that time exactly too?"
Offer her Leif Ericson day then.
Do you realize you are arguing over a couple hours on a single day over the course of a couple months, part of which, if not all, will be spent with friends their own age? Are the two of you using this to avoid coming to terms with the "real" issues you need to deal with?
Do you realize you are arguing over a couple hours on a single day over the course of a couple months, part of which, if not all, will be spent with friends their own age?
That's the point she was trying to make. My point is simple. I want an absolute "official" 50/50 custody plan in place, to protect myself legally, and to give me something to fall back on, if and when things get ugly between us. She is the queen of saying something in a conversation, then steadfastly denying she said it, or insisting she said something different. Her Mother and I have comiserated on this tendancy of hers, and it's infurating. I need to have it down on paper.
Unofficially, I'm willing be flexible with any reasonable request, and I probably will relent and let her get the kids after school on my Fridays. Then I won't have to leave work early. We're both going to need each other to help cover sometimes.
Are the two of you using this to avoid coming to terms with the "real" issues you need to deal with?
Do you mean issues around her A? I made myself clear about what she needs to do to allow us to reconcile, and I've given her plenty of time to do it. I've owned my part every way I know, and accepted probably more than my share of the blame. She is still apparently choosing to refuse to own her part, so I have no choice but to get the legal framework in place to end our M. That's what I'm trying to do, to protect myself, and give me some sort of solid platform upon which to build a new life. I need to know what my custody schedule is going to be for the next 10-15 years, and I need to know it's solid and not vulnerable to her impulsive nature.
An interesting twist. There is a wonderful pub in our city that holds special meaning to us, and it's closing after this week. It's next to the place we had our wedding reception, and after the reception was over, many of our family and friends went there. W and I went back to the hotel to change out of our wedding outfits, so we were delayed getting there. When we arrived, the whole place was full of our friends and family, and they all cheered when we walked in the door. All was right with the world at that moment.
Anyway, yesterday before son's baseball practice, W was chatting me up, so I said "Did you hear that <pub> is closing?" She looked sad and said "Yeah! And I can't find anyone to go there with me tomorrow night." Didn't sound like she was fishing, since it was so spontaneous, intiated from a question I brought up. I let it go at the time, but after son's practice was over and we were getting in our cars, I said "If I can get babysitting tomorrow night, I'll bring you to <pub>. Let's go." W lit up and said "Really?! Ok!" I said "I'll have to see if I can get childcare, I'm not sure right now, but I'll stay in touch tomorrow." She said "Ok, sounds great." Son overheard us, and asked "What's <pub>?" W recapped the story about what happened after our wedding reception, and said how wonderful it was. I smiled and said to him "One of the best memories of my life." She said "Me too."
So I guess W and I are going out tonight.
you are the ultimate flip flopper future. Again. In the space of 15 minutes, you go from "end our M .... build a new life .... not vulnerable to her impulsive nature" to "the story about what happened after our wedding reception" and "W and I are going out tonight"
Zoomie!
IS the affair still the issue?
She is still apparently choosing to refuse to own her part, so I have no choice but to get the legal framework in place to end our M.
Eh. This no good.
Until she can accept her A and what she did, it does no good for either of you.
Have fun tonight. Have you played any more gigs?
I don't feel like I flip flopped. I am pushing to end our M, but that doesn't mean we can't see each other while it's happening, or even afterwards, for that matter. She is competing with other women now though. I am building a new life, and I want a legal, financial, and custody foundation to build it on, which still doesn't mean we can't see each other. It does mean I am not seeing her as her married husband though. She is impulsive, it's one of her attributes. I wasn't saying that as something horrible I'm trying to get away from, just something I'm aware of, and something I need to deal with in these legal wranglings. It's charming at times, and infuriating at times.
IS the affair still the issue?
It is as far as I'm concerned. We have no foundation for reconciliation as long as she refuses to completely abandon all ties to OM, and show me remorse. Other than that, I think we'd have a good chance at successful reconciliation. I'm at the point now though where that's just one of my possible futures, and I'm fine with it.
She is still apparently choosing to refuse to own her part, so I have no choice but to get the legal framework in place to end our M.
Eh. This no good.
Until she can accept her A and what she did, it does no good for either of you.
Have fun tonight. Have you played any more gigs?
As long as I continue to push to end our M, I feel I'm doing what needs to be done. This pub that's closing brought back a good memory, which led to tonight's plan. Not sure what harm it does. Guess I'll find out.
We usually do have fun, so tonight will probably be the same. I just played my gig last week. I don't like to do repeat shows, so I need to get more songs ready. I'll play again soon.
F - I understand your feelings completely. You are in a good place. Ofcourse you are going to jump at the chance to relive a moment with the woman you love. It's not flipflopping. You're on an emotional rollercoaster. Do you "play" strong and not go with her or do you seize the opportunity to spend time with the women you love? No Expectations. No pressure. No brainer to me. this is not making what she did ok. It's just spending time with the woman you STILL love.
Good Luck. PMA
In the space of 15 minutes, you go from "end our M .... build a new life .... not vulnerable to her impulsive nature" to "the story about what happened after our wedding reception" and "W and I are going out tonight"
It wasn't 15 minutes. I wrote those two posts one right after the other. Just the timing of hitting the "Submit" button was 15 mintues apart. I was simultaneously feeling all of what I said, not flip flopping.
I'm at the point now though where that's just one of my possible futures, and I'm fine with it.I taught she wanted an open marriage?
Sounds to me you like you are are joining that way of thinking...
She is competing with other women now though.
F - I understand your feelings completely. You are in a good place. Ofcourse you are going to jump at the chance to relive a moment with the woman you love. It's not flipflopping. You're on an emotional rollercoaster. Do you "play" strong and not go with her or do you seize the opportunity to spend time with the women you love? No Expectations. No pressure. No brainer to me. this is not making what she did ok. It's just spending time with the woman you STILL love.
Good Luck. PMA
Thanks PMA. You are living up to your name! That was the exact question I was asking myself. We only have one chance to relive that memory. After tomorrow, the pub is closed forever. My gut told me to take her out tonight. I think I've demonstrated to her that I will stand my ground (not going to Disneyworld, custody, etc). I do love her, but I've finally broken all my co-dependence. I don't NEED her. She has been treating me with respect and kindness, and I choose to reward that behavior.
SMQ- I'm pushing to end our M. I won't live in an open M.
You're most welcome. Make sure you take some pics... your kids will love to hear the stories
Here's a recap of Friday night. Went out with W to the pub from our wedding day. We had a great time. On the way I showed her the video on my phone of my recent gig. She was thrilled, and said "H, this really is a big deal." I am in the most bizarre situation, with a MC for a WAW. She was talking about one of her clients, and how his (wayward) wife doesn't like how my wife is encouraging him (the betrayed husband) to establish boundaries. He's been acting like a real doormat. I guess the wife has cheated on the husband several times, with random dudes, like the gardener. My W said "She makes me look good by comparison!" Then she says "H, I know this is hard for you to believe, but you've really helped me in my work. The things you did, they made me face reality. I was so angry at you at you at the time, but I later realized you were doing the right things. When I see these other wives acting like I did, I encourage the husbands to call them on their sh*t, like you did with me."
Who would have ever thought that advice from this board would make it from a betrayed husband into the hands of his wayward marriage counselor wife, and then be given to her betrayed clients. WTF! This is a crazy world.
Anyway, we also went to another club to see a band, and closed that place. We were getting a little "familiar" with each other, and W said "This is confusing." I said "What do you mean?" She said "We shouldn't be doing this. We're working on finalizing our custody agreement." I nodded, but we kept right on doing what we were doing. Just light affection, nothing more.
After bringing her home we hung out at her place for a while. We talked until 4:30 in the morning. We were in good moods, at first, talking and joking, and watching TV. Finally, I said "How do you feel about us working on that custody agreement?" She said "I hate it." I said "How do feel about us getting divorced?" She said "I hate it." I said "Well?" She said "H, I know, but we have this toxic sh*t between us, and we can't get around it." I nodded and said "I know."
Then the dams blew open. She started trying to justify what she did. She said "You are sticking to the idea that I cheated on you." I said "W, you did cheat on me." She said "I know what I did was wrong, but technically, I didn't cheat on you." I said "Yeah, you did." She said "I admit I emotionally cheated on you. I shouldn't have started anything with OM until after we were separated, but I didn't feel like we were married any more." The tired old standard argument. I said "W, the way you behaved during our last year living together was a disgrace. You enjoyed whatever benefits you wanted from our marriage, while keeping me in the dark about what was really going on."
I was getting VERY angry at this point. She started rewriting history, leading to us arguing about it. She said "I told you I didn't have hope for us, we were sleeping in separate beds most of the time. You shouldn't have held onto hope." Then she started on the whole "OM had nothing to do with it" argument. She said "Even if OM was never in the picture, we'd be right here where we are." I said "Yeah, we probably would have separated, but without all the destruction." She looked down and said "I know." Then she said "I was suicidal. OM was keeping me from the edge. What I needed you couldn't give me." I was livid, and stood up and said "Ok, I'm done" and I started walking out. She said "Please don't go." I said "Why?" She pleaded "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Please stay and talk." It was the first real remorse I ever saw in her. She looked sad and said "Why do you even want me anymore?"
I was taken back by that question. Her vulnerability defused my anger. I softened and said "That's a fair question." I started with some BS about how I know I failed her in some ways, and about how our M never got to where we wanted it to be, blah, blah, blah. Then I got a little emotional and said "Because I don't feel like I ever got to really know you, and I want to, before I decide what I want to do." She melted and put her arms around me, and said "Thank you. That was exactly what I needed to hear, and I didn't even know it." I said "Why do you want me?" She said "Because the man I fell in love with is still inside you." Then I said "There's another reason, one that's hilarious, and tragic. Out of all the married people I know, we have one of the best marriages." She smiled and said "I know! What's up with that? We have this thing between us. I've tried to push it away, but even when I'm so angry at you, it won't go away."
I said "W, I won't live like this anymore. This is it for me. Either we need to get our D finalized, or take a step toward each other. She said "How can we ever get past what happened?" Again, so bizarre my MC wife is asking me what we can do. I said "We need to do something drastic." She said "Like what?" I asked her if she ever heard of Retrouvaille. She hadn't. I don't get it. All the tools I've learned about here, and she knows about none of them. I described it to her. She was enthusiastic, and said she would be absolutely willing to do it. That was about it. We were exhausted, and our son had a baseball game starting in only four hours. We hugged goodbye. W looked at me and said "Do you ever wonder what it would be like being together again?" I could tell by the look on her face she was referring to sexually. I smiled and said "Not saying I haven't thought about it, but I don't know, it would be pretty weird."
The next day at our son's baseball game, I was acting as field umpire, and when W arrived, she walked around the field to where I was, and between batters handed me a drink. She said "I feel good about our talk last night. I looked into Retrouvaille. It's run by three couples and a priest. As long as the priest isn't really involved, I'm good to go." I said "Whatever we do, it should be something we both feel comfortable with." She looked relieved and replied "Absolutely!" The game ended up being decided on an controversial infield fly rule play. Both coaches were yelling at each other, at me, at the home plate ump. Parents were getting involved and yelling. Totally sucked. Ridiculous for nine year old little league. When it was over I walked over to W. She was sympathetic, and joked "I think we're getting a taste of what the next 10 years are going to be like."
The following day W sent me an e-mail that said she's scared. She's scared of trying, of not trying, of getting hurt again. She said she can't wait until November for Retrouvaille, that we need to do something very soon. She suggested that we go away for a couple days in the next couple weeks to get some extended time together, and if that goes well, then go to Retrouvaille a month later. I replied that was fine, and I suggested a place a couple hours away to go. She said ok.
So, am I pursuing, or leading?
"H, I know this is hard for you to believe, but you've really helped me in my work. The things you did, they made me face reality. I was so angry at you at you at the time, but I later realized you were doing the right things. When I see these other wives acting like I did, I encourage the husbands to call them on their sh*t,
She even needed you to do it after she acknowledged it. (Testing)
Then the dams blew open. She started trying to justify what she did. She said "You are sticking to the idea that I cheated on you." I said "W, you did cheat on me." She said "I know what I did was wrong, but technically, I didn't cheat on you." I said "Yeah, you did." She said "I admit I emotionally cheated on you. I shouldn't have started anything with OM until after we were separated, but I didn't feel like we were married any more." The tired old standard argument. I said "W, the way you behaved during our last year living together was a disgrace. You enjoyed whatever benefits you wanted from our marriage, while keeping me in the dark about what was really going on."
I was getting VERY angry at this point. She started rewriting history, leading to us arguing about it. She said "I told you I didn't have hope for us, we were sleeping in separate beds most of the time. You shouldn't have held onto hope." Then she started on the whole "OM had nothing to do with it" argument. She said "Even if OM was never in the picture, we'd be right here where we are." I said "Yeah, we probably would have separated, but without all the destruction." She looked down and said "I know." Then she said "I was suicidal. OM was keeping me from the edge. What I needed you couldn't give me." I was livid, and stood up and said "Ok, I'm done" and I started walking out. She said "Please don't go." I said "Why?" She pleaded "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Please stay and talk." It was the first real remorse I ever saw in her. She looked sad and said "Why do you even want me anymore?"
The following day W sent me an e-mail that said she's scared. She's scared of trying, of not trying, of getting hurt again.
She wants to know if you are scared.
I was livid, and stood up and said "Ok, I'm done" and I started walking out. She said "Please don't go." I said "Why?" She pleaded "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Please stay and talk." It was the first real remorse I ever saw in her.
Look at the result you got. Do what works.
Yes, you are leading. Read her cues.
Unbelievable that she keeps testing me, even after she thanks me for holding her to the fire.
That was the first time in the history of our relationship that I got angry and she didn't get angry back, but rather showed remorse for bad behavior, and vulnerability. She's growing.
I replied to her e-mail that I'm scared too, and I am. In the past when I tried to put a strong confident face on our prospects, she would back away from me, because she could tell we were on very different pages.
As the days have gone on, I've found myself getting less and less enthusiastic about going away with her, or doing Retrouvaille. I am feeling good about my life. Do I really want to put myself through more h*ll? I was planning on calling her this morning to ask her to lunch so we can spend some time together to see how it feels. I didn't need to. She called me this morning, and said "The more time that goes by without seeing you, the farther I get from wanting to go away with you. Will you come out with me to a comedy club Friday night?" I think we're on the same page now.
"do I really want to put myself through more hell?"
This is the same question that I ask myself whenever I sense my x-wife is reaching out.
Hi v1olin-
Is your XW still involved with her OM? It's when that fizzles that they really ramp up the reaching out.
The last I knew was that he moved to Europe with his family last august. They were still talking on the phone once in a while at that time. I don't think they talk much now considering her behaviour towards me. I have dated a few ladies, dumped a few ladies, have a few chasing me and I dont pay much attention to the ex w.
Lol! I do still love my ex but I figure if she wants me back she can chase ME for a change.
v1olin-
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Some here may think I haven't let my W chase me enough, but they don't see her every couple days like I do. They don't hear her complimenting me, asking for my advice, trying to pry info from me on my single life, wearing the perfume she knows I like, etc, etc. She treats me with respect (MOSTly), and admiration. She knows I have an active social life, she sees that I don't take her calls right away, don't answer her texts right away, and I'm not at her beckon call. She HAS been chasing me, for well over a year now. Between the severe damage of her A, plus the problems we had in our M, it's a long road to reconciliation. Given our history, in some ways I'm glad for her A, because it has prevented us from going too fast, and allowed us to truly heal and grow before we got to where we are. From what I understand about your sitch, you've grown considerably through all this too.
If my W and I do end up together, I'm confident our M is going to be great, and if we can't get there, we'll get divorced and life will go on.
Yeah, I have done a considerable amout of growing but it is her who has a loooong way to go in that department.
Well I guess I was right and wrong Future. My D8 told me yesterday that her mom told her she was dating someone. I still don't understand the warming up she was showing towards me but I have had enough of this garbage.
Just because she's dating someone, doesn't necessarily mean anything about how she's feeling about you. The first big A partner has a lot of power, but after that, they're just guys. She could just be lonely, wants someone to hang with, but that doesn't mean she isn't thinking of you.
Regardless, I agree, until she does or says something conclusive, stay away and live your life. Let her swing in the wind for a while.
The forum shuts down for a week and all h*ll breaks loose in my sitch.
I went out to dinner with W on Sunday night, and we had a great time. I maintained better boundaries this time though, and other than a little goodbye making out, kept it to just talk. The next day she texts me that she wants to meet me for a drink. We arrange a time, and when I get there, I can tell she's in an odd mood. She starts telling me about her session with our MC today. About how she's not sure she can ever find someone she can be with. About how she feels like her comfort zone for men is so narrow as to be impossible. I validate and support her, and tease her a little. We get closer and closer, and eventually we're enthusiastically talking about Retrouvaille. She expresses regret and sensitivity about how her relationship with OM's country must hurt me. She tries to reassure me that her feelings for that country go far beyond anything to do with him, but she asks me if I'd prefer if she puts all the stuff from OM's country away. I said it would be good, at least for a while.
She very sincerely apologized for the hurt she's caused me. She said she was asked to have coffee with a old friend of ours, whose wife died a few years ago, and she said that although it is nothing but a friendly gettogether, she asked if I'd rather she cancelled it and didn't go. I said "The fact that you brought it up probably means you should cancel it." She smiled and said "Ok."
Some talk of OM did come up. She said our reconciliation attempts earlier in the summer were derailed because she was still grieving OM, then she said "Actually, I was grieving what I THOUGHT that relationship was. I was convinced you could never love me as much as him."
It was going so well, out of nowhere. I thought this is my chance to get her to hopefully give the answer to a question I needed to ask. I said "W, you've told me how much you loved him, and he loved you, so I have to ask, what's the problem?" Without blinking an eye, she answered back "He won't move here." Definitely not the answer I was looking for.
The entire conversation pivoted. I felt like an idiot. I said "I was afraid you were going to say that, there's nothing else for us to talk about" and I got up to leave. She stopped me and said "No! Don't." I sat back down. I said "So because he won't move here, you might as well try to patch up your marriage." She said "No, it's more than that." I was getting extremely defensive. I said "W, why won't he move here?" She said "Because he doesn't love me enough." I said "W, he broke up with you after every time you went to see him." She looked surprised, and denied it. Then I said "W, you had a leak (as in an information leak)." She looked horrified, and said "Who was it? It was either X or Y. Who was it? Now I don't feel like I can trust anyone." I said "It wasn't anyone. You were the leak. I could see it in you each time."
She was getting angry, and started to defend him, saying I don't understand. I should have STOPPED, but my anger took over. She said "He loved me in a way you never did." I said "W, he didn't love you. He used you, and you kept throwing yourself at him." She said "Ok, so now I'm dealing with ugly and angry H, ok. I'm still not bailing on this, but I have to stop this now."
Of course I didn't stop, because I'm a moron. I started in on how her claims that our M were over before she got involved with OM were bunk, and I recounted several stories about how she reached out to me, while professing her love for him. I said "So when were we over during all this?" She denied it all, and got angrier. I said "What would you do if he walked in here right now?" She said "I don't know." I said "Maybe you should find out." She said "How can I find out?" I said "That's not my problem."
We left, and she started crying in her car. She said "I'm never going to open myself up to anyone again." My anger was gone, and I said "W, I had to get that stuff out. I had to." She closed the door to her car and drove away.
I did send her a conciliatory e-mail today, saying how that stuff had been inside me for so long, and how I felt like if we were to have any hope, I needed to get it out. I told her I was angry because I hated myself at not being stronger and forcing her to make a clear decision. I told her I wasn't in a position to comment on what her relationship with OM meant because it was impossible for me to be objective about it.
She responded tonight with an e-mail that told me she forgave me, but how our conversation proved it doesn't work between us, and there was nowhere to go.
I called her tonight, and agreed that it wasn't working. I said there was nothing left to do except to get divorced. She agreed. We did go around a few times, without anger, about what was said last night. I asked her "How can I consider you're serious about reconciliation when you say the only reason you're not with him is because he won't move here." She said "Because that's not the only reason." I said "You didn't give any other reasons last night." She said "I was feeling attacked." I said "I asked that question before our talk turned bad. In fact, we were doing so well, I thought this was a chance to ask that question, and put it to bed for good, but the answer you gave was not compatible with reconciliation." She said "You didn't care how I felt, I opened myself up, and you attacked me. I don't know exactly what was said when, and I'm not interested in disecting the conversation. You did what you've done so many times before, which is roll over me with your anger. I'm done, I can't do this anymore." I said "Ok." We both got sad, and she said "The only thing that matters now is the kids." I said "Ok, I guess that's it." She said "Let's agree never to break each other's heart again, ok?" I said "Ok." Then she said "H, look at all we've been through, and how I've hung in trying to get this to work between us. Do you really think there isn't another reason why I'm not with him?" I said "Why didn't you say that last night? That was exactly what I was looking for." She gave no answer.
We agreed to hire a lawyer to draft up the no fault divorce papers. Although I don't entirely believe this is over, I feel awful. I went on autopilot. When she started defending her A, and OM, lost it. Although I feel I screwed up, she needed to be able to see my anger without bailing on us, if we are to have any chance to reconcile.
Future, (I refuse to use the initials for your username
)
you have done a good analysis. So Learn from this and change your dang behavior. Stop reinforcing the decision to divorce. Don't commit to it, but don't argue with her either. Let her discover the will to rediscover (which is what "retrovaille" means, literally) the marriage.
No more OM questions. Sure SOMEDAY if you do reconcile, get some answers but only after you are on surer footing. I don't want to rub your face in your mistakes, you know them. But I suggest you make a list of "To DO" along with the list of "Don'ts"...as in, when you two are comfortable with each other,DO
stay in that moment and enjoy it. Don't comment on it (=pursuit) unless she does and then validate what she says. NO pushing. Teasing and flirting are fine, if the moment calls for it. But enough of the pushing when she's clearly on the fence. You're pushing her off. The mc meeting she had brought up some of her old doubts. You reminded her of those doubts.
Leave those behind. People change.
Show her that you have changed or she'll never believe that marriage between you two can be better than before, and even you must realize it needs to be better, right?She says the other country represents more than OM to her. Believe her. Are there other ways she can meet some of the needs it provides without going there? (Cuisine? Similar topagraphy or religion or whatever??) For now, it's not your problem. Your life is your responsibility now without obsessing about your w and you are doing so much mind reading. Not helpful. Counterproductive really.
My DB coach was great. Here's what she told me and maybe it'll help some of your sitch.
1) Lose the anger, at least in front of her. She does NOT need to see it. She surely knows you are angry and if there's never going to be a way to get past your anger, you two are better off divorced....seriously. (NOTE As an LBSer myself, I admit now that one huge obstacle to recon is our own resistance to losing the anger we feel entitled to. Maybe we ARE ENTITLED to it, but is it helpful? Not so much. Hardest lesson of all this for me was letting go of the past errors even though I didn't know if my h fully understood how much pain and unfair damage he'd done to our family. I will never know if he does. And so? Do we end the marriages even though they want back in, b/c we don't think they've suffered enough?
2) Be upbeat, GAL with a PMA as much as possible. Give her something to miss. The new you is "busy meeting interesting people, going to exciting places and doing fun fascinating things!!"
This is the new you to whom she'd be married and therefore, the marriage would be the improved version! You're bringing a lot to the table; even more than before. Show your confidence and that you are a great catch. Many women do appreciate their men more when they realize other women appreciate them. Childish? Sure. Do men do it too? Heck yes...oh well.
(A little mystery would not hurt either)
3) Really be WITH your kids. Fully present and not preoccupied with how your wife is feelign or what she's doing or will think, etc but just lovingly interacting with your kids. NO MOTHER IS UNMOVED by the loving interaction of her children with their father. (She pretty much verified that for you too). Use that.
Wow Future, we must be on the same wavelength or something...I also "lost it" in a way. I decided to enforce a simple boundary about where and how I would pick up our kids on my fridays. I have been picking them up from my mother in -laws house for the last 18 months. Well, now we are divorced and that seems like the wrong thing to be doing for me. I told her I needed the change and she would not help make it happen. I told her, "either the kids go to school instead of Nana's house or you pick them up from Nana's and bring them to me." She would NOT make the tiny sacrifice in her schedule and I told her I was done talking-hung up on her.
She tried calling me atleast 15 times in a row and I ignored every one. She texted a few times and finally she caved in and agreed. I told her to send the kids out to me when I pick them up and she can stay inside.
I have a hot date coming up with a salsa dancer and I will not hold back one bit.
Fascinating to observe that you both want someone who doesn't want you back.
And yet you fail to get it through your head that the very thing that will give you your best chance to turn this around is to do what works. The FACT is that what the OM did WORKED..
He dumped HER.. She still pines for him deep inside her heart.
Her ego is bruised because he DUMPED her...
Women HATE to be dumped... (which is why the facts show that YOU should dump her too. She obviously responds better to men who can take or leave her.
Fascinating that you can't see or understand why what you keep doing doesn't work. Fascinating.
I don't disagree with gucci, but you have to do it with an upbeat positive attitude. That IS possible. You're just giving them what they say they want, after all...but for God's sake, do something different b/c what you've done so far has NOT worked...isn't that obvious? Can't you change your approach or are you so stuck that you prefer where you are & what you know, to where you might go or who you might become?
j
Hi guys --
Please start a new thread. This thread is getting a bit too long, so I'm locking it. Shorter threads improve the speed and flow of this online community.
Thanks.