Long time lurker, first time poster. I was not there for my wife emotionally and after building her self esteem 13 years ago I tore it down over the last three years. She is a beautiful woman but I felt bad about myself so I commented on her weight. Finally one day I said "looks like you are getting fat". This was the straw that broke the camels back and about two weeks later she asked for divorce. Three weeks later she had a ONS and two weeks after that another ONS. On November 7th she met the current other man and is still involved with him.
I understand my faults and am working on them, I have DB book and DR book, Love languages book, Lee Baucom and a few others.
She has acknowledged positive changes for the sake of our 3 children (S12, S4, S2).
I caught her on November 11th, 2009 and moved out November 19th. If I did not move she was set to take the children to a unfamiliar and unsafe environment.
For the first week we did not get along. After that we started dating some and being sexually intimate again.
On December 1st she dumped the other man and on December 2nd she thought that I had a date (went to see my brother) and she begged the OM to take her back. She did not see him again until Dec 18th although she had other opportunities she called me instead and we were spending every to every other night together.
Over christmas she spent 4 days with me and left her phone off the whole time. We ML a few times and went to my mom's. She left the phone at the house. He came to the house to visit her on Monday because she chose to spend NYE with me instead of him. I messed up and blamed her for inviting him to house (she did not and told him to leave, they were fighting about me). I also confronted him and let him know that it would be a mistake to come back to the house again (mutually agreed ground rule no op in marriage house while still married). Wonder of wonders she showed respect with that ground rule.
Confrontation was a set back. She went to see him and got her fix on Dec 30th and then went with me Dec 31st.
Went to see him the night of Jan 1st and told him she is not worth the trouble. Came back and told son 12 that she wanted to break it off with om but had to do it slow.
She is worried that I will never take her back and that I am moving on with a female friend that I had years ago. This woman is a friend and has been for 15 years but the wife has been jealous. I have been faithful to my wife but she thinks I had an EA.
Wife signed up for facebook. I found out and signed up too. Asked her to friend me, she did and saw the woman that threatened her had added me too and flipped out. She ran to om's arms and took S2 and S4 with her (S12 was with me). She spent about 36 hours with om.
Last night she did not want to work on M and she sent a email to the woman who she feels threatened by.
Today she is bringing me all the kids, shaving cream, talking nice, wanting to hang out for a while and wanting to cuddle for a while. Then at about 8:00 pm off to see om.
When she sees him she acts guilty and depressed for a few days after. She says that she does not care for him and no ILY have been exchanged. Says that I am better looking, better provider, better endowed and better in bed. But I tore down her self esteem and she wants someone to tell her she is beautiful and I won't do. Our marriage counsellor tells me that the sex is not what she is looking for out of him but instead is a consequence of the flirting that she wants. In short she puts out so he will keep telling her what she wants to hear.
I have had the bakery open and part of the time it worked. I just want some advice.
OK, the first thing is, you need to learn how to talk to each other.
Not intimately, not sharing deepest darkest secrets, but just basic communication.
On December 1st she dumped the other man and on December 2nd she thought that I had a date (went to see my brother) and she begged the OM to take her back.
Why did she think you were on a date? Did you not tell her where you were going?
He came to the house to visit her on Monday because she chose to spend NYE with me instead of him. I messed up and blamed her for inviting him to house (she did not and told him to leave, they were fighting about me). I also confronted him and let him know that it would be a mistake to come back to the house again (mutually agreed ground rule no op in marriage house while still married). Wonder of wonders she showed respect with that ground rule.
Confrontation was a set back. She went to see him and got her fix on Dec 30th and then went with me Dec 31st.
I'm not sure how that could have gone differently, other than she sounds like she is definitely cake-eating. She sleeps with you, then goes and sleeps with him, then goes to sleep with you again! And when he showed up at the house, she got upset and went to him, then came back to you again!
Went to see him the night of Jan 1st and told him she is not worth the trouble. Came back and told son 12 that she wanted to break it off with om but had to do it slow.
That doesn't work. If she is going to break it off, it has to be all at once; otherwise, she'll keep getting whatever emotional fix she needs from him.
She is worried that I will never take her back and that I am moving on with a female friend that I had years ago.
Why does she think that? Has she talked to you about her worries? If so, what have you told her about your friend?
This woman is a friend and has been for 15 years but the wife has been jealous. I have been faithful to my wife but she thinks I had an EA.
So if the wife has been jealous of that relationship, why are you talking to her again? Or is the jealousy thing recent?
Wife signed up for facebook. I found out and signed up too. Asked her to friend me, she did and saw the woman that threatened her had added me too and flipped out.
What woman threatened her? The 15-year-long friend?
She ran to om's arms and took S2 and S4 with her (S12 was with me). She spent about 36 hours with om.
OK, I'm normally on the empathetic side of WAS's, but why are you letting her blatantly hop in and out of your respective beds? When something makes her angry or upset, she makes no bones about running to the OM. She even took two of your kids!
And you let her back into your bed? You may not be aware of this, but some jurisdictions hold that having sex with your wife while she is having an affair amounts to tacit approval of the affair.
That needs to stop, ASAP. Try this on for size:
"I understand that you are angry at me, and we have serious issues that we need to work on if we are going to save this marriage.
HOWEVER, it is unacceptable that you run off to OM whenever you feel like it, and it is completely unacceptable that you bring our kids to his house. You are disrespecting me and you are confusing our children.
If you want to work things out, then you must cut off all contact with OM. If you choose not to, or I find out that you have not, then you can leave the kids here and go stay with him, and I will pursue filing for divorce."Says that I am better looking, better provider, better endowed and better in bed. But I tore down her self esteem and she wants someone to tell her she is beautiful and I won't do. Our marriage counsellor tells me that the sex is not what she is looking for out of him but instead is a consequence of the flirting that she wants. In short she puts out so he will keep telling her what she wants to hear.
So have you tried to make an effort to rebuild that connection to her? Have you apologized for tearing down her self-esteem?
Why on earth would you do that, anyway? Because "you felt bad"? Can you see why that would damage her trust in you, and cause her to lose respect (and for women, respect = love) for you?
Hello?......
STD's anyone?
Sex with OM one day and sex with you another day?!
And you allow this?
WTF?!
Do you enjoy dipping your stick in another man's vanilla?
Sorry for the graphic description but what you're doing just sounds gross, it's like your both sharing her just for sex, I'm sure you can practically smell each other on your wife by now.
No more sex.
Take a break, it's ok, you will survive.
Rethink what you're doing and regroup,
what's going on right now isn't working so we you can stop anytime now and start focusing on doing something that does work.
Ok, I understand. In the beginning I tried to play a head game with jealously about the female friend and it back fired. The MC who sent me to this site and got me into the books said that demanding an immediate stop to the affair would just push them together because of her depth in the fog. I was the controlling one in the relationship and the MC thinks this is a game from her to prove control. W has said that this is no game but it is her control. I have been bleeding the money supply down to enough for bills only so that she has to feel some consequences.
Tonite she is going to see om and like an idiot I just sat and watched a movie with her while cuddling and we kissed passionately a few times.
Me tearing her self esteem was a mistake and I had a few financial issues that made me feel less manly so I attacked her instead.
I want much more than sex with her I want true intimacy.
I have scheduled some IC for her and she says she wants to go.
Please tell me more or ask more because I want to save this relationship of 14 years.
Ok, I understand. In the beginning I tried to play a head game with jealously about the female friend and it back fired. The MC who sent me to this site and got me into the books said that demanding an immediate stop to the affair would just push them together because of her depth in the fog. I was the controlling one in the relationship and the MC thinks this is a game from her to prove control. W has said that this is no game but it is her control. I have been bleeding the money supply down to enough for bills only so that she has to feel some consequences.
Tonite she is going to see om and like an idiot I just sat and watched a movie with her while cuddling and we kissed passionately a few times.
Me tearing her self esteem was a mistake and I had a few financial issues that made me feel less manly so I attacked her instead.
I want much more than sex with her I want true intimacy.
I have scheduled some IC for her and she says she wants to go.
Please tell me more or ask more because I want to save this relationship of 14 years.
Tell your wife that she should be with the OM, you won't stand in the way of her happiness.
You will also stop having sex with her, stop kissing her, hugging her, cuddling and all that other nonsense, these things are for people in a devoted, committed relationship, not for people in a crazy no holds barred open relationship.
She is cake eating.
Cake eating literally means what it implies.
She's having the best of both worlds.
A husband at home who is scared to lose her, and another man who isn't worried about losing her but is ready to give her the kind of sex she's been looking for in a long time.
You are the 2nd option.
If you listen to us, you will no longer be the 2nd option,
removing yourself from the list of options actually makes you more desirable because you will become something she can't have anymore.
If she is with the OM, I think you should start dating other women, I'm asking you to fall in love, kiss, have sexy time explosions, I'm just saying go out and meet other women.
No arguing with your wife anymore.
In fact cut the communications with your wife down substantially, let her pursue talking to you but don't initiate talking with her.
And this $hit about bringing the kids to the OM's home,
you better put your f!@#$* foot down and tell her that this will happen NO MORE! Man you pissed me off something fierce when I read that, how could you allow that?! They are your kids for crying out loud!
robx and trentc I know you can help as I have been following your threads for over a month and reading advice from others.
Remember though the MC says this is a little different because I was in control during the relationship and that is what she is rebelling against.
My 180 was to move and lay finance and house decisions on her but only give her enough money to make bills.
I also have always demanded to know her whereabouts even before affair started, so I am trying to detach and be loving and available when she wants.
She has never been alone. Even when a kid, since 14 she has never went longer than a week without a boyfriend.
She was sodimized at 14 by two of her dad's drug buddies, beat as a child (broken nose, etc.), and raped by a classmate at 16.
She has a few issues that may require different handling, but I do not know. I am new here and just struggling and scared.
I did act very happy to see her when she was here. Tomorrow when she picks up the kids she will be feeling guilty and I will not be bubbly and happy, I want her to feel her guilt.
She did say that she felt that all I was ever interested was sex and it can be a turn off. She is a lower drive (once a week or once every 10 days good for her) while I prefer once a day but can easily survive with once every 3 days or so.
That has caused a disconnect. She does not go see om even half as often as her time allows and neglects him at times to only hear his words. She is clearly seeking validation of her beauty.
I need to be less available for sex until she comes back my way?
That I can do.
As far as the break it off slow thing, I agree but she has a hard time with this and has always either had to make a guy break up with her or let him down slowly. Dumbest thing I ever heard but I have known her since she was 14.
nope it's not different, I'm not too concerned what your mc says,
ask her how successful she is, how many marriages she's saved, I'm sure she'll waffle on that answer.
Although her childhood issues are traumatic, you didn't cause them. You may have been an ass and hurt her self-esteem but I think the affair wasn't caused by your recent comments, I think it's been in the works for quite some time, you only caught wind of it recently.
She is seeking validation, external validation, she needs help from a counsellor to help her learn how to boost her self-esteem and internally validate herself.
My advice still stands, it's still applicable.
As for the sex and her saying she has a lower sex drive,
look at the recent events, she's having sex with 2 men and probably regularly, if anything I would say her sex drive is stronger than yours, she just can't explain it and neither can you.
Let her have the OM and remove yourself from the list of options, she's having an affair right now plain & simple and you are trying to enable her with all of these excuses.
I did not know she took kids to see him until after. However I hoped that kids might scare him off. OM is 40 never had kids, never had wife, makes very little money, lives in a single wide trailer, smokes (neither w or I do), balding, opposite of her prefered body type and drinks heavily. I have considered restraining order for the kids as he has had one before when at 33 he hit his sister and she filed one. Afraid restraining order may push them together.
She only took the kids after I played a head game for jealousy and should have my teeth kicked for.
I will tell her exposing kids to him is unacceptable. To tell the truth she does not want to take kids there anyway as they depress him and cramp their time.
Ok, I understand. In the beginning I tried to play a head game with jealously about the female friend and it back fired.
And that's why those kinds of head games are never a good idea. Why did you feel the need to make her jealous?
The MC who sent me to this site and got me into the books said that demanding an immediate stop to the affair would just push them together because of her depth in the fog.
Well, if that's how you want to handle it, then you should not have sex with her again until she's given up the OM. And look at getting tested for STDs.
I have been bleeding the money supply down to enough for bills only so that she has to feel some consequences.
What does this mean? Are you just burning through money and leaving enough in your joint accounts for bills? Or are you withdrawing it and hiding it from her?
Tonite she is going to see om and like an idiot I just sat and watched a movie with her while cuddling and we kissed passionately a few times.
Yeah, this is not a good idea. You are giving her every indication that you are okay with her sleeping with some other guy. Hell, you're giving
me the impression that you're okay with it.
Me tearing her self esteem was a mistake and I had a few financial issues that made me feel less manly so I attacked her instead.
It was more than a mistake. It was hurtful, and cruel, and directly contributed to the crisis you are in.
I want much more than sex with her I want true intimacy.
You've found a crappy way of going about finding it.
Stop trying to f#ck with her head. If you can get this turned about, try being honest with her about your feelings and your fears. Intimacy requires honesty and trust, and by playing with jealousy and attacking her self-esteem, you've displayed neither.
I have scheduled some IC for her and she says she wants to go.
Let her schedule it for herself, then. You still have a power struggle going on. And I'd consider IC for yourself if you aren't already going.
Please tell me more or ask more because I want to save this relationship of 14 years.
Start by going back to the basics.
What do you want from your marriage? What do you want from your wife that you're not currently getting? (And I'm not talking about since the A started, I mean in general.)
What does your wife want from a marriage? What, besides the obvious, does she want from you that you aren't giving her? (Again, I'm not talking about since the A started, I mean from the past few years.)
Come up with a plan to work on those.
She started with this man on November 7th. Same day they met. She has been to see him no more than 11 times counting tonight. I have friends that live where they can see his house. She has had the opportunity to see him another 23 times but chose me instead. This cake eater only goes to see him when we fight.
You all are right about distancing. When I have cut off and stopped pursuing her she has ignored him and chased me. She has told me that she wants to be pursued.
About me dating. I have talked to a couple of new women met through work connections for many hours at a time and felt a huge change in my PMA. I have never went out with these women more than once as I do not want another R to complicate things.
What do you think? I am a little slow and may require a few hundred 2X4's to get in shape.
OK, after reading this, you have far too many serious issues going on in your situation for me to help you with. She was raped and sexually abused. Has she ever gone to counseling to deal with these? You, and she, both need IC in addition to join MC.
She got involved with you, and you have demonstrated that you can be no better than the other men in her life; you're controlling and manipulative. Seeing a pattern here?
As far as the break it off slow thing, I agree but she has a hard time with this and has always either had to make a guy break up with her or let him down slowly.
No, that's how she has chosen to deal with it. And guess what? You're next in line.
She doesn't want to take responsibility for her feelings or her decisions; if you leave then she's the victim. She's blatantly disrespecting you to your face, hoping that you'll be just like all the other guys and take off on her.
OM is 40 never had kids, never had wife, makes very little money, lives in a single wide trailer, smokes (neither w or I do), balding, opposite of her prefered body type and drinks heavily.
Who will probably treat her like crap, too, once you're out of the picture. It's all she feels she deserves.
She only took the kids after I played a head game for jealousy and should have my teeth kicked for.
No, I think you're paying for that now.
She has left me to schedule all appointments with MC and IC and agrees that she has anger issues and other things to address in counseling but does not know how to schedule. She asked me to schedule the appointments. I was also asked to take care of her speeding ticket.
For me all I wanted out of the marriage was what she was giving me already before this all started.
What she wanted from me was to tell her I was proud of her and her accomplishments, that she was beautiful and the only woman in the world to me, and for me to listen to her when she had a complaint instead of shutting her down because I did not want to hear nagging.
I accept most of the fault in the breakdown of the marriage.
Since October I have been trying to make positive changes on most of these. I have become more soft spoken and understanding with every one, play more with the children when I have or see them, my anger is almost totally gone (had a temper and yelled alot before). She has noticed some of these changes and likes them but I think I have become more of an enabler.
I am seeing a pastor for my IC and have two sets of friends that went through this to draw help from.
I also pray 3 times per day and I am rediscovering my relationship with God. (Had not been to church in 16 years)
As far as the money, I am self employed and pay myself every two weeks. I just deposit less in our joint account and put more into my private savings. I do not want her to have extra money to play around on.
I am hoping that her IC will help her but her IC is also our MC. Any thoughts?
My IC is helping me and I don't want to leave her but I do not want to enable her either.
She does show me respect in some aspects of life but not when it comes to her A.
She has come out of the fog enough to stop demonizing me but now is demonizing herself and seems to be going through mild depression at times. I know she feels the guilt but has told others that she is afraid to come back to me because I can never accept her again and she is afraid to be alone.
I will stop texting or calling unless it has to do with the children and will not initiate sex or physical contact with her.
Should I not return calls and text? Should I stop accepting displays of affection? Or should I let them continue only when she pursues.
LHS, I can tell you right now that Rob's way as it stands will not be effective with your wife because of the abuse issues. Your wife does not fit into the typical category. You will need to tweak Rob's words to make them fit better.
Your wife DOES have issues, SERIOUS ones. She needs to see an IC who specializes in, and has had success with abuse victims, so choose carefully. NOTE: This will be for HER, not you.
The OM's appearance does not matter because your W's primary LL is "Words of Affirmation." If I'm not mistaken she will also suffer from issues of rejection and abandonment. This is going to be a delicate balance for you. "Going dark" is will trigger one, and as you found out, the "jealousy button" triggered another.
Can you tell us if what, if any, counseling she has had in for dealing with her past?
One final word of caution for you: DO NOT REACT OR ACT ON IMPULSE! Take your time and PLAN your approach. It has been going on since November. A few more days will not make a difference.
She has not had IC for any of the rape issues before. She has not had IC for the beatings before. Additionally almost all of her past boyfriends beat her. I was the first man to not ever hit her and I even rebuilt her self esteem. Then like an idiot I opened my mouth and tore it down.
For me all I wanted out of the marriage was what she was giving me already before this all started.
My lesson is that you should always be moving forward, adapting and evolving, in or out of a R. If you were settling for what you had, that was part of the problem.
What she wanted from me was to tell her I was proud of her and her accomplishments, that she was beautiful and the only woman in the world to me, and for me to listen to her when she had a complaint instead of shutting her down because I did not want to hear nagging.
Many of us are guilty of this. Lesson learned, hopefully. But I have a feeling this is primarily a symptom of a greater problem, one deeper in a person's personality. I think it's about not being deeply connected w/ your spouse.
I accept most of the fault in the breakdown of the marriage.
No. Accept YOUR mistakes and hers and don't put blame. Assigning a bad guy role to yourself is as fruitless and self-defeating as dumping the blame on your W. We each have specific character flaws that lead to where we are. Correct them in order to improve YOUR life.
STOP cuddling and making out w/ your wife as long as she is seeing OM!!! You don't deserve a divided marriage. It will destroy you. Just stop. When she innocently asks "what's wrong?" lay it out. Not mean or angry. You're not interested in sharing the love of your life with another man. If she's not interested in just you, let her know you're not compromising about this and will find a woman who will be with you and only you.
If you are willing to share her, let me tell you that I have seen plenty of open relationships. They have all ended in heartache and chaos.
P.S. For full disclosure:
If you're wondering what my credentials are? NONE.
I am NOT a counselor and have NOT had formal psychological training.
However, I do have extensive experience with women, including one who was abused as a child. That is what I bring to the table.
You all are right about distancing. When I have cut off and stopped pursuing her she has ignored him and chased me. She has told me that she wants to be pursued.
What do you think? I am a little slow and may require a few hundred 2X4's to get in shape.
I don't know, maybe you are slow,
you found that you got a positive response by distancing yourself, limiting contact with your wife, etc. and then she pursued you but you ignored this response and continued to pursue her? Because she told you she wants to be pursued?
Regardless of what she says, I'll let you in on a little secret, she enjoys the pursuit, she's pursuing the OM and when you cut off contact with her, she pursues you: you have 2 examples of her wanting to pursue a man regardless of what she tells you. She gets bored of you pursuing her because she knows you want her, she can have you at anytime, but it's good for her ego to have 2 men at the same time, think about it, you mentioned she has low self-esteem, well it's currently getting a decent boost by having the attention of 2 men.
Remove yourself from this situation, regardless if you want to date other women or not, just limit contact with her, tell her she can have the OM but you're not going to be part of an open relationship with her and the OM from now on, you have too much dignity & self-respect to allow that to be part of your life. As for the kids, tell her if she wants to see the OM that's her choice but she isn't bringing the kids to see him anymore, that's your decision, you won't have them exposed to her crazy behavior and that environment with a stranger (OM) - that's just horrible for the kids to be exposed to that.
Gnosis,
You are 100% spot on. When I pulled away and went dark for four days she panicked and came running saying it is over because you don't love me. Abandonment is huge for her. She is also terrified of me finding a better woman and is jealous. Has even stated lately that she is a worthless woman and horrible wife.
I tried the jealousy thing hoping that it would make me more desirable to her and it worked some until I tried it with the long term female friend that she felt threatened by. Then abondonment and rejection issues started.
I believe still that she is a good woman at her core and until A she was an excellent wife (not great house keeper but perfect every other way). She was faithful for 13 years.
I have told her that the A is a mistake but does not undo 13 years worth of good. She is still a good woman. I just want the affair to stop.
I am here for the long haul and need help formulating a plan to get back on track.
She is starting IC and I have been in for about two weeks with my IC.
I want her to be mentally healthy for her and I need to fix me for me and my kids.
Also she had one ovary removed in June because of continual cysts. She is now surgically sterile and had trouble with turning 32. She changed hair style, hair color, dropped ties with her family (finally starting to reach back out some), dropped old friends (reaching out some). With all of this MC has said that she does not think MLC. I hope MC is right but we have only been to three appointments so far.
Help me formulate this plan Gnosis. Help from sandy and or greek would be good too.
She has left me to schedule all appointments with MC and IC and agrees that she has anger issues and other things to address in counseling but does not know how to schedule. She asked me to schedule the appointments. I was also asked to take care of her speeding ticket.
What do you mean by "she doesn't know how to schedule"? She doesn't know who to talk to? Can't you give her that info?
You have a crazy power struggle going on. She wants to bang another guy and let him tell her how pretty she is, but she wants you to take care of her.
You're not her husband, you're her surrogate father.
For me all I wanted out of the marriage was what she was giving me already before this all started.
Which was what, exactly?
Like I said originally -- you two need to learn how to communicate better. But she has huge, unresolved issues that have blown up every relationship she's been in, will likely blow up your marriage, and will continue to hobble her until she addresses them.
LHS, I can tell you right now that Rob's way as it stands will not be effective with your wife because of the abuse issues. Your wife does not fit into the typical category. You will need to tweak Rob's words to make them fit better.
I tend to agree with Gnosis in your particular situation. Both her childhood abuse, and your history of controlling and demeaning behavior towards her suggest a modification of that approach.
You might want to look at the old posts of smartcookie:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rted&page=6Smartcookie was severely abused as a child and her H was controlling and emotionally abusive. She became involved in a cyber-affair. For nearly a year, it looked like they would make it, but then her H reverted to his old ways and they are now divorced. Her posts might give you some valuable insight.
.
What Rob is saying here:
Remove yourself from this situation, regardless if you want to date other women or not, just limit contact with her, tell her she can have the OM but you're not going to be part of an open relationship with her and the OM from now on, you have too much dignity & self-respect to allow that to be part of your life. As for the kids, tell her if she wants to see the OM that's her choice but she isn't bringing the kids to see him anymore, that's your decision, you won't have them exposed to her crazy behavior and that environment with a stranger (OM) - that's just horrible for the kids to be exposed to that.
Is good advice. What we need to do with is fine tune it. It will need to be tweaked for finesse. You now know that going completely dark is detrimental. A fine balance needs to be found.
Another thing that you need to do is make this ALL HER CHOICE. I haven't read everything on your thread yet because I'm both pressed for time and to tell you the truth I'm growing weary.
I'm prepared to help you, but you're going to have to draft the plan and post it here. I will pinpoint areas that need to be softened up or hardened. Do not fly off the handle and react. Your plan will need to be tweaked as we progress and you measure your results.
The technique here would be to take both Trent's (softer side) and Rob's (harda$$ approach) and balance it out.
I will read smartcookie's threads again. And I will work on reading everything posted to me so far to draft a plan. I am committed to this marriage and am not in a huge hurry to turn this around tomorrow. We have only been separated for a little under 2 months and I don't expect anything big for at least 6 months of separation. I figure at least 4 more months. I have read success stories on hear that say over a year.
We have only been separated for a little under 2 months and I don't expect anything big for at least 6 months of separation. I figure at least 4 more months. I have read success stories on hear that say over a year.
I wouldn't put a timeline to this; everyone's situation is different. It would be a shame to make progress for 4 months, then throw in the towel because it's not "fixed' yet.
The important thing is, when do you feel that you are not making any progress? Or that things are getting worse?
Things got better and then I pressured and pursued and tried to make her jealous. Now things are worse. I will make a plan and they will be better again. No timeline set I just figure a minimum of 6 months to make changes in me that will have positive impact. This took a long time to fall apart. It will not be healed overnight.
Things got better and then I pressured and pursued and tried to make her jealous. Now things are worse. I will make a plan and they will be better again. No timeline set I just figure a minimum of 6 months to make changes in me that will have positive impact. This took a long time to fall apart. It will not be healed overnight.
Just for the record, I'm 4 1/2 months past the bomb.
It may seem like it takes forever to make improvements, but when you look back you may be surprised how fast things have improved.
But you still both need IC, in addition to MC.
And I don't remember if I said this, but it's probably not a great idea for your wife to see the MC as her IC; when I asked my IC about it, she said I should look for a separate MC because there would be a perception that my IC is on "my side" when seeing her as an MC.
Trentc,
Point taken with IC. Will look for different IC in same office as MC.
Reading smartcookie's posts. This will take a while. I will write back when done.
Sandi wrote in smartcookie's thread that the WAW is aware of her guilt and feels sorry but is very scared and confused that she needs understanding and space. I agree, my wife sees my hurt and it hurts her. Then I push to have us spend time or get back together but I don't act happy and in the moment all the time. When I do act happy and act as if all is good she moves towards me and away from OM. She did not seek validation from someone else because I was perfect. I was a controlling, and demeaning individual and I pushed her away from me. My wife chose the affair but I chose to weaken her mentally where the option was even in play in the first place.
Still reading smartcookie's post and learning, bear with me.
Did not realize how long studying smartcookie's threads would take. Still going, don't give up on me. I think I can be done reading these post by Tuesday evening.
PS: could use some help from FWAW on this sitch.
I also have interesting developments, but I will leave those for later.
Thanks in advance for the help.
BECAUSE I can see that you're doing the work, I'm more than willing to help -- as is everyone else watching your thread.
Take your time in doing your research. This is paramount to your sitch. I hope you're taking written notes (this helps your mind grasp the facts.) What will also help is to post what you have learned from SC's threads here along with what you think your actions will be.
You're going to get conflicting opinions as soon as you start posting. Don't get overwhelmed and feel forced to reply to all when they start coming in. Take your time to ponder what is read then map out your response.
This all goes to the 4C's... Cool, Calm, Collected & Confident.
Thank you Gnosis. I am learning form SC's threads and a few she references in her threads. I want to be better prepared when I come back, but I do not want anyone to think that I am abandoning this effort. I will crawl through hell and back and endure any pain necessary to save my M with my wife. Until the A I was responsible for about 90% of the marriage breakdown and it is up to me to fix it.
Thank you for all your help and I will continue to research so that I may love and live better for and with my wife.
I will continue to research so that I may love and live better for and with my wife.
As long as you don't let her treat you like a doormat while you're doing that.
W wanted to know the details of a online chat I had with a male mutual friend of ours that she broke the news to first. She thought that I am holding myself blameless for the breakdown of the M. This is the email I sent her.
W,
You wanted to know what I told B. It is the same that I have told all who asked. I will never deny any of my faults or wrong doings in the breakdown of our relationship. I will own 100% of my mistakes and will take the blame for probably 90% of the problems in our marriage.
I am working hard on me. It is a long slow process but I am committed to being a better man. I love you deeply and am deeply remorseful for the pain that I have caused.
If you can find it within you to give me a chance I will spend the rest of my life trying to make up for my failings.
The following is my side of the chat conversation.
H
I do love her deeply and am committed to making the marriage work. She is an wonderful, beautiful, intelligent woman who I admire very much, even today. I wish she would hear me when I say it to her, but since I only started saying it to her again in late October, I should not be dumbfounded that it falls on deaf ears. Maybe with enough time she will hear me.
I believe that she is still confused and affraid that I cannot forgive her and take her back without being a complete d*ck and holding this over her head forever.
I can forgive completely. I treated her badly and help create this mess in a big way.
I have told others that I am proud of her and attracted to her, just not her. That is our biggest problem, I never told her because I am a "Dumb A$$ed Man"
I thought that I did not have to tell her because I provided financially for her. That was not enough.
Fighting for the ones you love is way harder than physically fighting. I would rather walk in one on one with chuck liddell than go through this with W, she has been a good wife and a very good woman.
I love her and know that we can have the marriage that we always wanted if we can just work on it. I am changing into a different man than I have ever been and it feels good. I will not fail her again if she gives me another chance and I want nothing more than to give her another chance
I do not want to run her down or destroy her reputation all I want to do is understand her and this situation and learn how to change myself to save this marriage. I want to save it for the children, her, and myself
I know. My deal breakers are different. She broke the wedding vow of not cheating, but I broke the vows of not honnoring and cherishing her (at least to her face, I always told others how proud I was but tore her down to her face). So both of us broke wedding vows (I broke mine for a longer period of time)
I am ready to fix it. I want to remarry her and keep my vows forever.
Let's face it, she had sex with others before we got together and I got over it. I can get over this as well.
The easy thing to do is give up and move on. The hard thing to do is to continue to fight for this marriage. That is ok. Nothing worth having is ever easy. You have to fight for what you want in life.
I want my wife and my family. I will crawl through hell and back before I give up as they are worth every minute of pain that I must endure.
Been caught on fire before and the pain was bad, but I would gladly do it again if she would only ask. I will prove that I am serious about saving this marriage.
If she has to go through hell to come out better I will carry her through so that she does not get burned. I love her and I am very sorry for ever hurting her. I will be better and strive to never hurt her again.
I am hurt and so is she. This is a great opportunity to grow and heal and learn together. I do not like the affair but for me it is a valuable learning tool. It woke me up and makes me want to be a better man.
This is not a deal breaker because the learning experience is way too valuable. I will not be able to forget quickly but I can and have forgiven. I do not want her to forget either. I only ask that she forgive. If we forget we are doomed to repeat our mistakes.
Her cheating is seen as a mistake by me. She is human and is allowed to make mistakes. I only want her to stop cheating now. I have made the mistake of destroying her self esteem and I must help to rebuild it. I will fight as hard and as long as it takes as I love her.
I have loved her since we were 14 and 16. I will continue to love her. I still think highly of her and am still trying to protect her reputation. I have told none of my family and have told no one that she did not tell first besides a couple of close trusted friends and her family members who would not pass judgement against her and decide that she was evil forever.
I do not think she is a bad wife. I do not think she is a bad woman. I think she is hurt and scared and confused. I am as well. She has always been a good wife. She has always been a good woman. She simply is making a mistake with the cheating as I made a grave mistake by tearing down her self esteem. We can heal together if she will allow it.
H
This is how I feel. The female friend that she was threatened by and her have been emailing lately and friend has told W that I love W very much and have said on more than one occasion how amazing my W was and that she was intelligent and beautiful.
W responded that the only reason she went to OM's arms in beginning was she was tired of feeling fat, ugly, and dumb.
I was an idiot. I talked my W up to everyone but my W. With her I projected my own anger at myself off on her and tore her down.
I was starting a new business and did not feel as though I was the type of provider that she deserved.
Still reading and studying SC's posts but just had to give a update.
Hmmm... your email was a bit over the top....
You wanted to know what I told B. It is the same that I have told all who asked. I will never deny any of my faults or wrong doings in the breakdown of our relationship. I will own 100% of my mistakes and will take the blame for probably 90% of the problems in our marriage.
I am working hard on me. It is a long slow process but I am committed to being a better man. I love you deeply and am deeply remorseful for the pain that I have caused.
If you can find it within you to give me a chance I will spend the rest of my life trying to make up for my failings.
The following is my side of the chat conversation.
Excuse me, but your W is no angel either. I would not have sent the parts in
red You cannot claim that 90% of the marriage was all your fault. It's a 50/50 split.
The ILU is a no-no at this point in time. This is against DB principles and is seen as pursuit.
The request for another chance is also pursuit and is interpreted as begging. Begging your wife at this point lowers your value and her respect for you. Her RESPECT for you is KEY to your reconciliation. She reads this as, "Hold on... I cheated and he's begging me to come back? Whoa! How pathetic..." See? And I'm not calling you pathetic. I'm not here to judge you.
And finally... you did NOT owe her your side of the IM conversation. She would just have to take your word for it.
OK, 2x4's done.
Carry on reading SC's stuff. Remember... NOT ALL OF IT IS GOING TO BE APPLICABLE. From her thread you will get an insight into what
could be your wife's state of mind.
If it would help I can post the emails between female friend and wife. Let me know. I do know that my wife is thinking harder than ever before. I am committed to being the best me I can be for her and my sons. This will not happen quick but it will happen consistently. One day you are hit hard with a 2X4 and you look in the mirror with clear eyes for the first time. You begin to realize that you hate the man looking back at you. You have no choice but to begin the journey towards becoming better.
This man was me in early October. I told W if she wanted to be free that my life insurance policy would allow it. She held me as I cried, as I was ready to give my life for her to have financial freedom. She told me no and told me that she loved me still and children needed me. She just did not want to be with me.
This compassion from her showed me hope. I had my rock bottom moment and I have been working on me ever since.
I have gone without a plan. I have tried to play with jealousy. I have backslid some. But all in all I have made forward progress on myself. Three steps forward and one step back (every now and again two steps back). 14 years of habit is tough to break, but I will either break my habits or break myself. This is for me and my children. She will also greatly benefit.
Not looking to be a doormat but I am not looking to have complete control either (I did for so many years).
Thank you
Thank you Gnosis.
Point taken.
She has stated she likes the ILY but only once or twice a day.
When I stopped saying it for 4 days only she panicked and ran to me screaming that I had abandoned her and that it is now over forever.
She has severe abandonment issues, as all men before me either cheated on her, beat her, or abandoned her (including her own father)
I feel reassuring her the way I feel every now and again is important.
I will not however try to call her and I will not hold her after she has seen OM.
Still working on boundries with this type of woman.
There is no need for ALL the emails and stuff right now. You're a pretty self-sufficient and intelligent guy.
Don't rule out jealousy... it can still be used... and can still be very powerful. The problem most people make here is that they don't use it at the right time and place. The jealousy button is a last resort technique. It requires guts to do. OK, so you used it without a plan... fine. Every one makes mistakes, it's how we learn. You've learned from yours.
There is a time and place for every thing. Don't rule out anything. Once you have something in mind and have laid out a plan, I will spend the time to read your entire thread, make notes and share them with you.
Boundaries are made for you. Boundaries are there for you to maintain your personal integrity.
With this in mind prepare yourself for delivering the following boundary to your wife:
While you continue your relationship with OM I feel cheap, used and taken for granted. I refuse to be treated like dirt and be your fall back plan after he has used you and kicks you to the curb when he is done. If you continue to disrespect me like this I will have no choice but to withhold my affections and feelings for you. The choice is yours to make. Before you make that choice I want you to know that I love you and I believe that we can make this work, but we cannot do this while there is a third party involved in our relationship.
And be prepared to ENFORCE the above when you deliver it. The above is off the top of my head.... and something for you to ponder.
As Rob pointed out to you before... this will be counter-intuitive and we will be triggering her pressure points (aka fears)
Still studying. SC has a lot of posts. On a positive note, I had the perfect opportunity to go to the house, access the computer and spy, but I did not. I realized that I already know about the affair as she has admitted it and any info I find may be true or false. She has lied to me, herself, and others; she has also told the truth. So which would I find through snooping? I don't know and it is not worth finding something that will upset me more if the chances of it being a lie is 50%. If I am angry I would confront her and that would just set me back further.
Looking for input from some FWAW on the email above.
Ok, I think that I am ready to formulate a plan. I found out that W and OM have exchanged ILY's for the first time last night. Then they fought about that. I also found out that W thinks I am hot and a good provider but does not know for sure which of us me or OM she wants. She also said that she will be hurt for the first few times if I start to date but eventually she will get over it.
Now for the self 2X4: all of the above found through snooping.
I should not have done that, but now I know she is still physically attracted to me and she still cares about me. I need to build on that.
She was angry with me acting like the only victim in all of this but she wrote that five days before I sent the above email.
Now today she is sending me text jokes, calling me and inviting me over to make homemade pizza with the boys and her tonight, and asking for my help in going to the house and setting out ingredients to thaw.
It was while at the house I could not resist urge to look. I did not go over until she invited me however.
What I have learned so far is that she has abandonment issues and because of me body image issues.
I think that I need to be here for her when she asks for help with things that are not just monetary.
I need to listen to her and validate her feelings no matter how much venom she spews.
I will show her physical affection when she is receptive to it. I will concentrate on hugs and light touch and only go further if she initiates. I will withhold physical affection when she has gone and seen OM for at least one full day.
She still acts as though she wants to date me, so I will ask her out occasionally but I will let her pick the activity (she just accepted my invitation for this Saturday).
I destroyed her self esteem by making her feel fat and ugly. I will tell her that she is beautiful, call her sexy, compliment her outfit, eyes, smile, etc. when I see her. These compliments will not be sexual unless she moves that way first.
She did enjoy flirting by text and sexting with me. I need to try that again.
I need to remain available to her but not to the point of being at her beck and call. It is ok for her to think that I am busy and at times I need to be.
I was taking dancing lessons and I need to restart them.
When around the children I need to make them the center of my attention so that I can develop a deeper relationship with them. She also notices and smiles when I do this.
I need more help as I am going there tonight and I do not want to mess up a chance to impress her.
I should not have done that, but now I know she is still physically attracted to me and she still cares about me. I need to build on that.
It can be possible to outshine the OM; it's not as easy or glamorous as affair-busting, but it can work.
1) Do not discuss the other man at all. Stop snooping; if she catches you, it will look weak and petty.
2) Find out what it is that she's getting from the OM (other than the obvious); some need she had was not getting filled, and she found it somewhere else. Does he tell her how hot she looks? Does he take out to eat and spend quality time with her?
The Five Love Languages and
His Needs Her Needs are good resources to understand what this means.
3) Keep working on your 180s and GAL.
From OM she gets validation of beauty. He tells her often she is beautiful, hot, sexy and treats her like the only woman in the room. All the stuff I did years ago.
He also is there as a shoulder to cry on without judging her or making her feel guilty.
He has only taken her out 2 times and they have been together 11 times. He has ignored her and left her setting at a friends house while he was drinking with his buddies until almost 10:00 pm. Then he told her he had to work that late and they would not be able to go out. He was home by 6 pm that day. He is interested in sex, she is interested in verbal validation and gives up sex as the price of keeping the validation going.
That being said her an om have fought some and I think that helps me.
I just need help in formulating the plan.
SC put her husband through hell for 12 months and his willingness to take it proved he was being less controlling for her. Mine is not rubbing my face in her A but she is not hiding it either.
Thanks for the help
As long as you show how weak you are by allowing your wife to share herself with two men you are doomed.
I GUARANTEE you that she isn't going to come back and dump the OM as long as you allow her to cake eat. How silly of you..
You want to prove to your wife who the better man is?
Then show her how much you respect yourself by SHOWING her that you love yourself enough that not only will you let her go, but that you think it to be for the best because three people in a relationship doesn't work.
The guy that will win her here is the guy thta shows her he doesn't need her.... I would take my chances on being that guy.
I can't recall the last time I saw a reconcilation happen when the BS fought to be the better man. It doesn't work.
From OM she gets validation of beauty. He tells her often she is beautiful, hot, sexy and treats her like the only woman in the room. All the stuff I did years ago.
He also is there as a shoulder to cry on without judging her or making her feel guilty.
Sounds like good places to start, then.
That being said her an om have fought some and I think that helps me.
By that measure, all of the fighting you and W have done helps him a lot more.
You don't know why they fought. Maybe she's having second thoughts about leaving and he's pressing her to stay. Maybe they argued about where her stuff will fit in his place. You can't go around comparing their relationship to yours.
Ok, I think that I am ready to formulate a plan. I found out that W and OM have exchanged ILY's for the first time last night. Then they fought about that. I also found out that W thinks I am hot and a good provider but does not know for sure which of us me or OM she wants. She also said that she will be hurt for the first few times if I start to date but eventually she will get over it.
Now for the self 2X4: all of the above found through snooping.
No 2x4s from me. Good intel.
I agree with Gucci. After studying thousands of affairs, I've yet to see the "be the nicer guy" thing work. Not saying that it HASN'T; just I've never seen it.
I HAVE seen, many times, the "I respect myself too much to allow this crap behavior," strong-stance stuff work.
Puppy
As long as you show how weak you are by allowing your wife to share herself with two men you are doomed.
I GUARANTEE you that she isn't going to come back and dump the OM as long as you allow her to cake eat. How silly of you..
You want to prove to your wife who the better man is?
Then show her how much you respect yourself by SHOWING her that you love yourself enough that not only will you let her go, but that you think it to be for the best because three people in a relationship doesn't work.
The guy that will win her here is the guy thta shows her he doesn't need her.... I would take my chances on being that guy.
I can't recall the last time I saw a reconcilation happen when the BS fought to be the better man. It doesn't work.
Are you sure gucci?
She was ready to dump him twice until I acted as if I did not need her. When I give her the validation she asks for she does not go see him. She still talks to him but she does not go see him. She is questioning her own actions right now but she does not want to come back to a guy who is only a victim. I showed her that I can accept blame for parts of our problems in the above email.
I cut off her cake eating once and she ran away so fast it made my head spin. Those abandonment issues again.
I am only treating her as my wife when she is attentive and loving to me (ie: acting as my wife) when she is not I am with holding affection.
I understand that this may not be the correct approach that is why I ask for help.
I know and appreciate that I have some good names looking at this thread. Puppy, Trentc, Gnosis, gucci, robx. I have been following threads where you have all posted and I admire you all. That being said I would love to hear from Dudess again, smartcookie, or sandi2.
This woman is severely broken and I need to be careful on how she is handled. She changes her moods several times a day. Sometimes she is proud to be married others she hates being married.
Sometimes she wants me, sometimes om and it is never predictable.
All I know for sure the om is not about sex it is about the other validation. I know that if I tell her no more she will go to him as she would think I wanted to control her.
If I pull away from her she will go to him and not come back because of fear of abandonment and stupid pride. She does not like to be wrong or look a fool.
Please continue with the advice.
I will start by giving her the validation she needs.
Thank you again
So you're OK with her having continued contact with another man, so long as she comes back to you after she does? I would never agree to that, personally; I have more respect for myself than that.
One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
Puppy
Some times you gotta let them break and fall apart so they can build themselves up again. Its called toughlove. Fully face the consequences of their actions.
No I am not wanting to share her. I do not want her to continue contact. But as smartcookie showed in her threads that forcing her hand will backfire with a woman with these issues.
That is why I was thinking more of a reward for good behavior approach.
I don't mind making her mad, or jealous or anything else if it is done correctly.
So far I have made her jealous and had her come towards me, but if it is the wrong woman she runs away.
I have made her feel guilty, and I know that she feels very guilty now.
I have made her mad and had her run to his arms.
I am in this for the long term but she is very reactionary when she is cornered or feeling abandoned.
You are correct cutter. She hit bottom once. I have considered going back to the house moving in and telling her to move out. But I do not want to try that quite yet.
If she moves out she will get child support and her paycheck and not another thin dime.
She does not make enough to survive on her own, but then does she come back because she wants me or because she is starving.
Keep it up guys, I am slowly learning
I have some good names looking at this thread. Puppy, Trentc, Gnosis, gucci, robx. I have been following threads where you have all posted and I admire you all. That being said I would love to hear from Dudess again, smartcookie, or sandi2.Keep in mind that I did not have an affair so it is hard for me to understand that part of your situation. My H certainly failed to validate me as a woman after we married, not by saying anything negative about my appearance, but by neglect. I felt invisible to him.
I was tempted by men who flirted with me and I had opportunities to cheat. I just knew that I wouldn't feel good about myself if I did that. Furthermore, I really didn't want anything to do with the kind of man who would have an affair with a married woman, even if it was
me, so that pretty much ruled it out right there.
All I know for sure the om is not about sex it is about the other validation. I know that if I tell her no more she will go to him as she would think I wanted to control her.I think you are right that she will be very sensitive to anything she perceives as control. That is why it is crucial that you set boundaries, for YOU, and let her make her own choices about what she does.
If I pull away from her she will go to him and not come back because of fear of abandonment and stupid pride. She does not like to be wrong or look a fool.Are you sure the fear of abandonment would work that way? Her OM sounds like a loser and you sound like the far more stable, and far less likely to abandon man.
I will start by giving her the validation she needs.
Also maybe think about giving her validation for other qualities she has in addition to her appearance.
As long as you show how weak you are by allowing your wife to share herself with two men you are doomed.
I GUARANTEE you that she isn't going to come back and dump the OM as long as you allow her to cake eat. How silly of you..
You want to prove to your wife who the better man is?
Then show her how much you respect yourself by SHOWING her that you love yourself enough that not only will you let her go, but that you think it to be for the best because three people in a relationship doesn't work.
The guy that will win her here is the guy thta shows her he doesn't need her.... I would take my chances on being that guy.
I can't recall the last time I saw a reconcilation happen when the BS fought to be the better man. It doesn't work.
Are you sure gucci?
She was ready to dump him twice until I acted as if I did not need her.
I don't think you need to act as if you don't need her in order to say "I will not share you with another man." Perhaps it could be presented as you do love her, want her, need her, but another party will doom the relationship and it is just too painful for you to know that she is with another.
I cut off her cake eating once and she ran away so fast it made my head spin. How did you go about that? Did you also begin to do stuff to make her jealous at the same time?
When I stopped her cake eating before I went dark except for the kids and I also began trying to make her jealous at the same time.
She sees jealousy as a threat now.
I have been complimenting her on her accomplishments at work and her skills as a mother as well.
Her OM is a loser but she thinks she may have already lost me. She has said she is afraid that if she comes back I may throw her out in a few months out of spite. She sees that as me having control.
Thank you for asking Dudess
I can't say for sure but my H said the same thing many times to me last year... that he thought about getting back together with me (as if HE is the only one who had a say in the matter, lol) but he couldn't because he was afraid OW would be thrown in his face.
IMO I think it is the way for the WAS to push more blame on the LBS when an affair is involved. To this day I still don't understand how a WAS can even fathom in their wildest dreams their affair would not have to be addressed if they did reconcile.
I am not saying you have to discuss it every day for the rest of your lives but it is something that would need to be addressed IMO.
When I stopped her cake eating before I went dark except for the kids and I also began trying to make her jealous at the same time.
She sees jealousy as a threat now.
How did you 'stop her cake eating' before? Did you give her an ultimatum or set your boundary?
It makes sense that if you were criticizing her appearance before, that your immediate interest in other women would backfire. I don't think I would play that card right away again. Also, maybe you don't have to go dark, you just drop having a romantic/sexual relationship with her. You can still be a good and caring friend.
I have been complimenting her on her accomplishments at work and her skills as a mother as well.
Great!
Her OM is a loser but she thinks she may have already lost me. She has said she is afraid that if she comes back I may throw her out in a few months out of spite. She sees that as me having control.
And does she think that if she doesn't give him up that you won't throw her out? Is she counting on that yahoo to be her life raft?
She is afraid to be alone but if she leaves me she can rent her own place and have him until she finds someone better.
I will hold off on jealousy and just act like a friend for now.
I will make pizza night tonight all about the kids and let her see them having a great time with mom and dad together.
Our next MC appointment is Jan 26th and Her IC is Feb 3rd. I want to bring up Retrouvaille which is available Feb 26th. Is there any advantages of going if she is not done with OM by then?
No. There are disadvantages to going before she is done with OM. Retrouvaille asks couples not to come if one of them is still involved in an affair. The program is less effective if one spouse is not focused on the marriage. It is better to wait.
As requested, I am dropping by. Just finished reading through your thread. It's been quite a roller coaster.
Your W has had some tough $h!t thrown her way. I feel so much sympathy for her, up to a point. She got dealt a rough hand, but she chose not to do counseling or find other healthy ways of coping with it. Instead, she's getting her validation, and thus "happiness", from other people. She desperately needs to find better coping mechanisms, but that is up to her. It is her choice, she needs to seek help because she wants to.
So, from what I can see, what works: complimenting her, quality time with her, no arguing, letting her make her own decisions.
What doesn't work: ultimatums, jealousy (at least with this woman who she thinks you had an EA with (on a separate note, I'm curious why you are so convinced you did not have an EA with this woman when it seems from your posts that you have talked about a lot of things with this woman that might have been private and better shared with your W)), sex, actions that are manipulative or controlling.
Boundaries are not the same as ultimatums. Ultimatums will definitely drive her away. Boundaries are for you, because you are the only person you actually have any control over.
A crude illustration of the difference: "I will not share you, choose me or I'm filing for D" (I can almost guarantee she'll choose him just to avoid caving to your demands). "I want to work on this M, but it is not possible with a third person involved. If you want to stay M we must be monogomous. If you want D, that is your choice. I just want you to be happy" The latter gives her a choice.
Ditto on Retrouvaille. Look for the next one in your area. You MAY be at a point to go then.
You have some really great people posting to you. Try and take the time to read, reread, and absorb it all.
As requested, I am dropping by. Just finished reading through your thread. It's been quite a roller coaster.
Your W has had some tough $h!t thrown her way. I feel so much sympathy for her, up to a point. She got dealt a rough hand, but she chose not to do counseling or find other healthy ways of coping with it. Instead, she's getting her validation, and thus "happiness", from other people. She desperately needs to find better coping mechanisms, but that is up to her. It is her choice, she needs to seek help because she wants to.
So, from what I can see, what works: complimenting her, quality time with her, no arguing, letting her make her own decisions.
What doesn't work: ultimatums, jealousy (at least with this woman who she thinks you had an EA with (on a separate note, I'm curious why you are so convinced you did not have an EA with this woman when it seems from your posts that you have talked about a lot of things with this woman that might have been private and better shared with your W)), sex, actions that are manipulative or controlling.
Boundaries are not the same as ultimatums. Ultimatums will definitely drive her away. Boundaries are for you, because you are the only person you actually have any control over.
A crude illustration of the difference: "I will not share you, choose me or I'm filing for D" (I can almost guarantee she'll choose him just to avoid caving to your demands). "I want to work on this M, but it is not possible with a third person involved. If you want to stay M we must be monogomous. If you want D, that is your choice. I just want you to be happy" The latter gives her a choice.
Ditto on Retrouvaille. Look for the next one in your area. You MAY be at a point to go then.
You have some really great people posting to you. Try and take the time to read, reread, and absorb it all.
All of this. ^
One of the fetching Mrs. Puppy's strongest love languages is WOAs (Words of Affirmation). But how to do, and not come off as "pursuing" and supplicating -- especially when she was in the midst of an affair?
It was hard. But one of the things that seemed to strike the right chord was to affirm her CAREER. Or maybe her relationship with her parents (altho she harmed that with her infidelity, but later this became in play again). Her competence at something (maybe as a mother), without going for WOAs about her appearance or anything else that would come off as "romantic."
Puppy
Found out last night that she had OM baby sit S2 and S4 while she went to the pto meeting. I highly disapprove and told her that if she leaves them with him again I will file a restraining order against him for the children. She yelled about control and threatened to file for D immediately if I were to file restraining order. She said threats will not work on her. I reminded her that OM has a previous restraining order on his record for busting his sister's nose and told her that her threat did not bother me as I would do whatever it takes to protect my children period. I told her that in our state and her being their mother that I could not keep her from taking them to his house as long as she is with them, but the minute she leaves them with OM it is a whole new ballgame.
Other than that pizza night went really well. I helped S2 build his pizza (sauce every where and he ate the pineapple as soon as I put it on the crust). When pizza was done W asked if I wanted her to make me a plate. I said thank you but I can get it. She was wearing the necklace that I made for her for christmas (sterling silver and amathysts).
I played and wrestled with the two younger boys and talked with S12. W folded some laundry, checked her facebook and replied to a few texts.
We put the boys to bed and she gave me a hug (she approached me), gave me some shaving cream she bought for me, gave me my mail, and I left.
She did say ILYBNILWY and that we did not have much in common anymore. She said that my praying at the dinner table made her uncomfortable. She has never been a believer and leans more towards the pagan side.
All this being said, she still wants to go out Saturday. We will probably all go out as a family so that I can focus on the kids.
Any input would be helpful. Thanks.
It just irks me that these walk aways want to still "hang out" and take part in family stuff or even do stuff with their ex or stbx!
I say NO...if you want the marriage to be over...No friendship...No hanging out...No taking part in what you didn't want to be a part of.
venting!
That is just it luvless she says that she want a D sometimes, she says separated sometimes, back together sometimes, her actions show love and compassion and a want to work on us sometimes and at other times they show her running away fast.
She says "I don't know what or who I want."
Extreme fence sitting with her cake in hand.
I need to nudge her off the fence.
Too much longer and I will give up and when that happens I will run a bull dozer over that fence and burn the remains.
I am looking for positive baby steps right now.
Wanting to go out, family time, asking to fix my plate, approaching me for a hug and asking me to sit by her, and buying me the shaving cream all seem like baby steps to me.
Her telling me she loves me too (even if she had to follow it with but not in love) also seems like a baby step as before she would have been hateful.
She was also paying attention while I played with the boys and smiling big when she thought I was not looking. She backed up my parenting descisions when one of the boys got in trouble and reinforced the timeout that I set for S4.
I thought many positives for baby steps.
Still need my hand held a bit while trying to figure it out.
Puppy and Michelle,
I validated her beauty (smile and outfit), cooking skills, sense of humor (she told a funny story and told me a joke), and told her that she was an excellent mother.
I also smiled, laughed, and acted happy all night up until the discussion about OM watching kids (which she brought up).
I kept eye contact with her at all times when talking except when wrestling with S2 and S4.
Thought I DB'ed ok until OM discussion but I tried to draw a line in the sand over kids.
Wanting to go out, family time, asking to fix my plate, approaching me for a hug and asking me to sit by her, and buying me the shaving cream all seem like baby steps to me.
Those are called crumbs. In other words, "throw the dog a bone to keep him happy."
Remember I told you that when you started posting your thread would light up like an Xmas tree? Well... it's happening. It's time to analyze everything written to you. Re-read your thread with an objective mindset and make notes on it.
I STILL haven't had a chance to read your entire thread. I have glanced through it though. People have given you good advice on your thread. Some of it you DON'T want to hear... but ALL of it is relevant.
I need some time to update my own thread.
All those positives are great. It is important to keep those in mind if you want to continue DBing. But they don't mean anything really other than she is confused and has issues. They are not an indicator of how things will go, or really what she is deciding (she's not in a place to decide anything because she is still too confused and her mindset changes with every mood). She will continue to have mood swings, change her mind, and spew at you on occasion. Be prepared for it.
2 things to work on. One, being more detached and slightly less available (by this I do NOT mean not going over there since you obviously need to spend time with your kids, but just making her work a little harder for your attention).
Two, your communication. It's hard to tell from what you posted here, but the conversation about OM did not sound that productive. I TOTALLY AGREE with your point of view. It just sounds like you issued an ultimatum and it turned into a big argument instead of you setting a boundary that can be enforced. (While you can file for a restraining order, the chances of you being granted more than a temporary one are about nil since nothing has happened)
Have you read any books on communication? Every one of them will tell you to never say "you" "always" and "never". E.g. "You never do the dishes" is a horrible way to start a discussion and will make the other person defensive. Use "I feel" statements instead. "I feel like I do more than half the dishes, I know none of us like doing them, but we should discuss a schedule that will even out the burden."
"I am not comfortable with the children staying with someone I do not know. I am available to watch them, especially if we coordinate a day or two in advance, (implying you have plans) and would love to spend time with them because they are my children. I would appreciate it if you asked me to babysit first. In particular, because of OM's police history, I don't feel the children are safe with him." I'm having a hard time coming up with a statement about the restraining order...I'll have to think more on it.
"I am not comfortable with the children staying with someone I do not know. I am available to watch them, especially if we coordinate a day or two in advance, (implying you have plans) and would love to spend time with them because they are my children. I would appreciate it if you asked me to babysit first. In particular, because of OM's police history, I don't feel the children are safe with him."
I did say this, but not before the restraining order comment.
That, or something like it? Do you think you conveyed that? Communication is about getting your point across to the other person. If they don't understand your meaning, you haven't communicated well.
Tone and phrasing matter a lot.
Just things to think about.
I said that Michelle, but and it is a big but, I said the bit about the restraining order first. I first issued ultimatum and them backed up and set boundry. The damage was already done by the ultimatum.
I will reread this thread again, as I need to learn more.
I sent her another email with the following:
"You are hot, so very very hot, smart, have a great sense of humor, a great lover (best I have ever had), great cook, good mom, good friend, and someone that I am honored to have spent 14 years of my life with. With any luck I may be able to spend more.
I realize that I did not tell you these things enough before we separated, but that was not because I did not feel them. It was because I took it for granted that you knew how I felt. I took you for granted. If you cannot tell I do not plan on doing that anymore.
I have always been there to take care of you with physical needs and financial needs and for a time the emotional needs. I pushed the emotional needs to the back burner for a long time. Never again will I do that. I am here for you. I want you back. I will not hold any of this against you in the future. I want to hold you in my arms again and comfort you like in the beginning. I want you to hold me again when I am upset. We were good together once and have three wonderful children to prove it.
I want to be good together again.
It is rare in life when you meet the love of your life. I met her in you.
You make me want to be a better man. You are perfect in every way for me. You have always been the wife I wanted. You are beautiful, intelligent, compassionate, loving, strong, independent, well liked, motherly, and alway take care of your family.
You and the children will always come first from now until the end of time.
I know that you feel confused at the moment and I am sorry for that. I wish I could help you with that. I am here for you to lean on when you need me. I am here to listen with a kind ear if you need me to. I am not a perfect man so I cannot expect you to be a perfect woman. I will love you unconditionally and I will love you truely for the rest of our lives if you allow it.
I would appreciate a response of some sort when you get this. Even if it is just to say you got it.
Please think very hard about us, because I do want you and you are the only woman for me. I have failed to show that to you. I will prove it to you if you let me.
I am not afraid of failure if I can learn from it. I have learned that my priorities were not right for a long time and now they are. You are the number one priority, the kids number 2, and work number 3.
I have arms to hold you and they are empty at the moment, I have ears to hear you and the hear nothing at the moment, I have eyes to see you but they see no one right now.
Lets spend some time together so that we can begin to heal our marriage and make it the one we always wanted.
No one else can make us happy. Each person must make themselves happy. I am happier now that I have identified the areas of my life where I have screwed up. I want to share that happiness with you. I want to show you that I am dedicated to you and that you are the earth, sun, and moon to me. You are the center of my universe Jennifer. It is not out of panic that I say this, it comes from many hard hours of thinking, journalling, crying, and talking that I have come to this realization.
I understand that I have been pressuring you to give me your all right now. That was wrong. It took me a while to begin to make myself happy and discover what I truely want. It will take you a while. We will not be healed all at once. It will take baby steps. Lets start to take those steps again.
Steps:
1. Talk nicely to each other
2. Touch each other in kind but non-sexual ways
3. Spend time together
4. Limit relationship talks (this will come naturally in time)
5. No threats or ultimatums from either of us.
6. Being intimate if we can (massages, baths, cuddleing, sex if it feels right)
7. Call or text each other nightly to wish each other a good night or the next day to wish each other a good day
8. Find something to compliment the other about each time we see each other.
9. Find time to dedicate to the boys with both mom and dad together."
I know it is pursuing but she has said that she wants to be pursued some. I am trying to validate her and 180 on the things I did in the past before this all happened.
I will summarize all the advice I have received to date and see what I can use to my advantage.
On a very positive note she says she is happy to be starting IC.
Looking forward to hearing how she replies.
FWIW, if you want input from us, you can always post drafts here before sending them and get comments/edits.
I would definitely say that is a 180.
Don't believe what she says though, believe her actions. I know she said she wants to be pursued. But her actions seem to say that her fear of losing you is what will move her towards you.
I sent her another email with the following:
"You are hot, so very very hot, smart, have a great sense of humor, a great lover (best I have ever had), great cook, good mom, good friend, and someone that I am honored to have spent 14 years of my life with. With any luck I may be able to spend more.
I realize that I did not tell you these things enough before we separated, but that was not because I did not feel them. It was because I took it for granted that you knew how I felt. I took you for granted. If you cannot tell I do not plan on doing that anymore.
I have always been there to take care of you with physical needs and financial needs and for a time the emotional needs. I pushed the emotional needs to the back burner for a long time. Never again will I do that. I am here for you. I want you back. I will not hold any of this against you in the future. I want to hold you in my arms again and comfort you like in the beginning. I want you to hold me again when I am upset. We were good together once and have three wonderful children to prove it.
I want to be good together again.
It is rare in life when you meet the love of your life. I met her in you.
You make me want to be a better man. You are perfect in every way for me. You have always been the wife I wanted. You are beautiful, intelligent, compassionate, loving, strong, independent, well liked, motherly, and alway take care of your family.
You and the children will always come first from now until the end of time.
I know that you feel confused at the moment and I am sorry for that. I wish I could help you with that. I am here for you to lean on when you need me. I am here to listen with a kind ear if you need me to. I am not a perfect man so I cannot expect you to be a perfect woman. I will love you unconditionally and I will love you truely for the rest of our lives if you allow it.
I would appreciate a response of some sort when you get this. Even if it is just to say you got it.
Please think very hard about us, because I do want you and you are the only woman for me. I have failed to show that to you. I will prove it to you if you let me.
I am not afraid of failure if I can learn from it. I have learned that my priorities were not right for a long time and now they are. You are the number one priority, the kids number 2, and work number 3.
I have arms to hold you and they are empty at the moment, I have ears to hear you and the hear nothing at the moment, I have eyes to see you but they see no one right now.
Lets spend some time together so that we can begin to heal our marriage and make it the one we always wanted.
No one else can make us happy. Each person must make themselves happy. I am happier now that I have identified the areas of my life where I have screwed up. I want to share that happiness with you. I want to show you that I am dedicated to you and that you are the earth, sun, and moon to me. You are the center of my universe Jennifer. It is not out of panic that I say this, it comes from many hard hours of thinking, journalling, crying, and talking that I have come to this realization.
I understand that I have been pressuring you to give me your all right now. That was wrong. It took me a while to begin to make myself happy and discover what I truely want. It will take you a while. We will not be healed all at once. It will take baby steps. Lets start to take those steps again.
Steps:
1. Talk nicely to each other
2. Touch each other in kind but non-sexual ways
3. Spend time together
4. Limit relationship talks (this will come naturally in time)
5. No threats or ultimatums from either of us.
6. Being intimate if we can (massages, baths, cuddleing, sex if it feels right)
7. Call or text each other nightly to wish each other a good night or the next day to wish each other a good day
8. Find something to compliment the other about each time we see each other.
9. Find time to dedicate to the boys with both mom and dad together."
I know it is pursuing but she has said that she wants to be pursued some. I am trying to validate her and 180 on the things I did in the past before this all happened.
I will summarize all the advice I have received to date and see what I can use to my advantage.
On a very positive note she says she is happy to be starting IC.
Blcccch. Puppy
Puppy,
I understand, but I never said these things to her before so this is my try at a 180.
Michelle,
Tell me more about using this fear.
Also I just found out that she is using Facebook to flirt with 3 different men. All from her past, all platonic friends, and all over 300 miles away. Her and OM are now fighting. Could she be replacing the validation from OM with online validation?
And is this a good sign?
She will be seeking validation from other people until she faces her issues. It is not a good sign, it is a sign that she is acting co-dependent, that she believes other people can make her happy (not true).
Just look at what happens when you don't contact her for a while. She panics and contacts you seeking reassurance. You give her reassurance, things are good for a while, then she needs something else to bolster her self-esteem and she seeks it from some OM. You back off, she wants reassurance from you, rinse and repeat.
Does that about sum it up? So, how are you going to break the cycle?
Her starting counseling is great. You doing counseling is great. But it's not enough. You have to change how you interact with her. You have to push towards a healthy, non-co-dependent R.
She also wanted me to come over for dinner tonight and to spend a couple of hours with her. I am busy (to be a little mysterious). She says she would like Saturday for whole family time and Sunday for just me and her. No staying the night either night.
I am busy (to be a little mysterious).
Good!!!!!!!!! Do you really have plans? If not, make some. It'll be great to take your mind off the drama.
Please tell me you didn't really send this.. Please...
"You are hot, so very very hot, smart, have a great sense of humor, a great lover (best I have ever had), great cook, good mom, good friend, and someone that I am honored to have spent 14 years of my life with. With any luck I may be able to spend more.
I realize that I did not tell you these things enough before we separated, but that was not because I did not feel them. It was because I took it for granted that you knew how I felt. I took you for granted. If you cannot tell I do not plan on doing that anymore.
I have always been there to take care of you with physical needs and financial needs and for a time the emotional needs. I pushed the emotional needs to the back burner for a long time. Never again will I do that. I am here for you. I want you back. I will not hold any of this against you in the future. I want to hold you in my arms again and comfort you like in the beginning. I want you to hold me again when I am upset. We were good together once and have three wonderful children to prove it.
I want to be good together again.
It is rare in life when you meet the love of your life. I met her in you.
You make me want to be a better man. You are perfect in every way for me. You have always been the wife I wanted. You are beautiful, intelligent, compassionate, loving, strong, independent, well liked, motherly, and alway take care of your family.
You and the children will always come first from now until the end of time.
I know that you feel confused at the moment and I am sorry for that. I wish I could help you with that. I am here for you to lean on when you need me. I am here to listen with a kind ear if you need me to. I am not a perfect man so I cannot expect you to be a perfect woman. I will love you unconditionally and I will love you truely for the rest of our lives if you allow it.
I would appreciate a response of some sort when you get this. Even if it is just to say you got it.
Please think very hard about us, because I do want you and you are the only woman for me. I have failed to show that to you. I will prove it to you if you let me.
I am not afraid of failure if I can learn from it. I have learned that my priorities were not right for a long time and now they are. You are the number one priority, the kids number 2, and work number 3.
I have arms to hold you and they are empty at the moment, I have ears to hear you and the hear nothing at the moment, I have eyes to see you but they see no one right now.
Lets spend some time together so that we can begin to heal our marriage and make it the one we always wanted.
No one else can make us happy. Each person must make themselves happy. I am happier now that I have identified the areas of my life where I have screwed up. I want to share that happiness with you. I want to show you that I am dedicated to you and that you are the earth, sun, and moon to me. You are the center of my universe Jennifer. It is not out of panic that I say this, it comes from many hard hours of thinking, journalling, crying, and talking that I have come to this realization.
I understand that I have been pressuring you to give me your all right now. That was wrong. It took me a while to begin to make myself happy and discover what I truely want. It will take you a while. We will not be healed all at once. It will take baby steps. Lets start to take those steps again.
Steps:
1. Talk nicely to each other
2. Touch each other in kind but non-sexual ways
3. Spend time together
4. Limit relationship talks (this will come naturally in time)
5. No threats or ultimatums from either of us.
6. Being intimate if we can (massages, baths, cuddleing, sex if it feels right)
7. Call or text each other nightly to wish each other a good night or the next day to wish each other a good day
8. Find something to compliment the other about each time we see each other.
9. Find time to dedicate to the boys with both mom and dad together."
So, all your wife has to do to get you to treat her right is to tell you she doesn't love you, find 2 or 3 men to chat with and have affairs with, reject you more and be a cake eater. If she does all of that, then she FINALLY gets you to treat her right and tell her all the right things...
Wow.... Imagine how much better you would treat her if she divorced you and brought in another two or three guys huh. Mayber she would get a love letter a day....
Many of us here have been at this for a long time. Some of us are not so easy to fake. By you telling us that you are doing a 180 isn't going to fly as a reason or excuse to write emails and letter like you did. I think you know you went completely overboard with that letter. It is very unattractive to a woman to get a letter like that when she is acting like she may want out of the relationship. Especially to a woman that has always been attracted to men who DO NOT do those things.
AND to top it off.. You end the day by saying you were busy to creat mystery???? After that love letter you think that you created some mystery?????
You are sadly mistaken if you think for one second this is how to get a woman back... Carry on if you must, but you are heading down the wrong path...
YOU are in PANIC mode. Panic mode never works. She can sense it. You are acting like a two year old here.
I need to correct my path gucci. I did send that. She said in her journal that she wanted me because I was there for her physical needs (sickness, operations, etc.), was a good father, and was always a good provider. She said that I took care of her much like you would a child.
She said she wants OM because he gives her a shoulder to cry on, tells her she is smart and pretty, and does not judge her when she is not so perfect.
That letter was my attempt to fill the EN's that the OM was filling.
She called me last night to wish me good night. We laughed and joked for about 20 minutes about different things. She said she enjoyed the call.
On a downside she said she is going to see OM tonight. She says that she may cancel and want to see me instead (I am not holding my breath). She said she went to see him last weekend because we were fighting and she is going tonight because she planned it last weekend. While she said this I acted as if it made no difference to me. I acted as if her decisions affected my life in no way whatsoever. Think she was trying to test me to see if I would get angry so she could justify her trip to see him.
She still wants to go out on Saturday and see me Sunday as well since I missed last night.
I need a course correction gucci. I want to win this fight, but really do not know how. I am trying to 180 what I was doing before the bomb. This letter was an attempt as I was controlling and angry before and never treated her as I should have.
I also let her know that I would not be able to help her with more than one third of her traffic ticket cost and she would have to pick up the rest of the tab. This should wipe out her savings account.
She called me last night to wish me good night. We laughed and joked for about 20 minutes about different things. She said she enjoyed the call.
On a downside she said she is going to see OM tonight. She says that she may cancel and want to see me instead (I am not holding my breath).
OMG. This is NOT going to work, and in fact it isn't working NOW, L.H.S.!! So, not 12 hours after you send her the most pursuing, supplicating letter I've seen in probably the past 3 years on this forum, she informs you that she's STILL going to see OM? Or, maybe not -- MAYBE she'll grace you with her presence? And you think this is working . . . why??
One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
Calling it a "180" doesn't negate all of the immutable laws of human attraction.
Puppy
2X4's taken and appreciated. She did enjoy letters like that when we first got together. No man had ever given her any before and I did. It endeared her to me at the time.
In PANIC mode I did think of doing the things that she liked about me in the beginning of our relationship.
She still respects me as a business man and a man in the community, but she does not respect me as a man for a partner right now.
I will say that being there and being nice to her was working through all of December, when she had me over almost every night and was ignoring the OM. On Christmas I became sad and played the victim and it turned her off.
Monday after Christmas I threatened OM and that set us back as I gave her an ultimatum.
She decided to go to NYE with me and we had a good time until bed time when I again played the victim.
She had her facebook and I threatened to move back in immediately if she did not friend me. She saw LTFF (long time female friend) had friended me and felt threatened. I defriended LTFF. She then emailed LTFF and confronted her. Results of confrontation was that she discovered LTFF was never a threat to our relationship. LTFF and I have been friends but I always talked highly of my wife to her.
In short, nice guy was 180 for me and was working. I then became victim threatening guy for two weeks and set back our progress.
I want to do what works, please help.
In short, nice guy was 180 for me and was working. I then became victim threatening guy for two weeks and set back our progress.
I want to do what works, please help.
Other than "being nice to you," what -- specifically -- was she doing that indicates to you that Mr. Nice Guy was "working."
What
EVIDENCE to you have that she was ignoring OM?
Puppy
When I was there and her phone would ring she would not even look at it. She would shut it off. She was having me over almost every night. Also I could check her phone records at the time and no outgoing or incoming calls to or from him. She may have sent a few text while at work but even her text count was very low.
We had a argument just a little while ago. I reminded her to call her lawyer on her traffic ticket. She wanted me to do it. She asked if I could give her the money to pay and wants me to go to L's office with her on Monday. This ticket happened just before S. I told her I could give her half the money. She got angry saying that I said I would take care of it. I said sorry I only have enough to give you half. I asked her if all I was for her was an atm machine. She started crying and said "no you idiot, if you treated me better I would have never started with OM" She said that she cared for me for more than that and was still confused. Does not understand why I am treating her good now.
Don't take the blame for her actions. You didn't cause her to fall into the arms of another man. And if he's so good, why doesn't he pay her fine for her? No one is perfect, and I don't know what you did that was "bad" to her, but I can't help wondering if it was as bad as her having an affair was to you. You have been pursuing. Have you told her that she needs to end the affair with the other man? There is no reason for you to pay the expenses of a person who is leaving you. She can start standing on her own by paying for her own tickets.
We had a argument just a little while ago. I reminded her to call her lawyer on her traffic ticket. She wanted me to do it. She asked if I could give her the money to pay and wants me to go to L's office with her on Monday. This ticket happened just before S. I told her I could give her half the money. She got angry saying that I said I would take care of it. I said sorry I only have enough to give you half. I asked her if all I was for her was an atm machine. She started crying and said "no you idiot, if you treated me better I would have never started with OM" She said that she cared for me for more than that and was still confused. Does not understand why I am treating her good now.
WOW.
Right there is a moment to stop the cake eating.
Draw a line.
I would kick her to the curb.
You can only take so much. And right now you are falling apart completely.
You have been ridden hard and put away wet.
How much more can you take ???
I think it is time you started to stand up for yourself. Go find your nuts.
Wow what a vulgar post...
Not wanting to ever give up.
See that quote.
Start to believe it about yourself.
That post before just made me mad as hell. Stupid fogged comments like that.
I know cutter. Thank you very much. I did tell her to ask OM for the money.
Looking to see if I can get Smartcookie or Sandi2 or another former WAW to weigh in as well.
I will reread and study this thread again. Do what works they say. That is the part I am still lost on. What works in this sitch. I am getting to the point where I am less scared of losing. That being said I still want to save my M if I can. Panic mode is not working. Some of the 180's are working some are not. Need a better plan.
Looking to see if I can get Smartcookie or Sandi2 or another former WAW to weigh in as well.
I don't think you want to hear what I have to say.
I do. I need a good head kicking. I am willing to fight for the M and know that I need to never give up no matter how bad it looks. I have read the success stories and some have taken as long as two years. I know I have made mistakes. So kick away.
I may not want to hear the critics but I need to hear them. I will make more mistakes but I need to make less of them than before. I am learning. I am afraid and it makes me stupid. Am I the only one to ever be in this position?
Whether I want to hear or not a question. I must hear. I have reread this whole thread 3 times now. I will reread it again. I need as much help as I can get.
This is the first time I have encountered this and don't know how to handle it.
All help is welcome. I have read and will continue to read until this begins to sink in. I also have friends (a couple) who went through this 10 years ago trying to read this thread and help me.
Thank you so very much in advance.
I will reread and study this thread again.
Please do and post your notes up here for everyone to see. And Sandi's gonna give you a good a$$-kicking too. So be prepared for a long post from her.
One more thing... reading and re-reading does NOT help. Coming up with a plan from what you have read DOES!
So, post your notes here... and also add what you think your plan should be.
I do. I need a good head kicking. I am willing to fight for the M and know that I need to never give up no matter how bad it looks. I have read the success stories and some have taken as long as two years. I know I have made mistakes. So kick away.
You dont need an a$$ kicking just a jar of vaseline. buck 99 @ walgreens. Before you have any interaction with your wife: JUST Do IT. It might help you to look at this situation seriously and consciously from here on out.
REALIZE...as long as you have this silly attitude that you will never give up no matter how bad it looks you are doomed to fail. Spend a bit of time reading some threads from some of the guys and girls who have been at this a year or two. Read what they have said a year ago: "never give up no matter how bad it looks" read what they are saying today: "never give up no matter how bad it looks." They are now laying boundarys down about cell phones and child care and this whoop-dee-doo or that. How pathetic. It doesnt work! They are crying. You are crying. They are sympathizing with you. You them. But where are you all? 2 bucks at walgreens once a week? A 25 dollar dildo replacing the one with cracks? Your spouse sees right through this. They are not on heroin! None of this is working for any of you.
When your spouse is in the midst of an affair, they are having the time of their life. There really isnt any confusion other than you (the a$$hole F'ing up their affair). There isnt any sadness. I dont know anyone who was sad while orgasming. Do you? They are growing as spiritual living human beings as you are plotting ways to supress their growth to be depressed like you. They do not want that. Why should you????????
I am going to tell you a story although people might get bent out of shape and or have a heart attack over....
I knew this women, brunette, nice legs, bit t!ts. we worked together. she was the office slut. did almost every guy that came and went. the first daughter looked like her husband, last name ended with a vowel; grandfather made his riches in red wine vinegar. second had red hair. third kid blond and blue eyes. Husband never gave up no matter how bad it looked. Get the picture. (I am hesitant to say anymore. there is a reality to all of this.)
Sometimes you need to take some time for yourself and develop into the person you are suppose to be no matter what your marital situation.
Man, I have only read a few of the previous pages. I am sick to my stomach. Look we are not unique. Your posts have allowed me to look at my own sitch a bit clearer. GNOS is right, so is Cutter- make a plan and draw a line and find your nuts.
Enough is enough- do the 180's for yourself, GAL, and give her your back. Really. That e-mail made me cringe, and I have been the king of pursuit.
When you wrote that, you put some time in it and some heartfelt emotions as well...you cannot detatch when you put yourself through that- unless you're full of shirt when you write it. Which you're not.
I say no texts, no emails, NC. I would love for my W to come clean about the A, yours has and she flips a coin as to whether she'll grace you w/ her presence?! And you wait!!
F her, do your own thing and maybe even try meeting some new women- as practice and for your self esteem. Don't be a dog, but start earning some respect from people whom are genuine.
The 180's you shold focus on, aside from anything that betters you as a person, are the one's that she may see 3rd hand. Neat house, clean car, well dressed, considerate to others, etc, etc.
She deserves nothing from you, especially not some promise to never give up and to wait for her.
I did the same shirt for 4 months. When I finally started to get things right, and they were few and far between, I started to get some results...the biggest help was detatching- she wants pursuit- you've done it, now youre done- that's it.
DETATCH and walk away...
loverherstill,
I think you may be confusing the issue here...
You do NOT want to be a jerk. You do NOT want to be rude.
You do not act in a punitive manner to her. You do NOT show anger or discontent.
Ok? Got that?
However.... You are going overboard the other way...
The key is a quiet confidence that you will not share your wife with not only another man, but ANY man. The key is to show her that even though you admit you screwed up in the marrieage, that you WILL let her go. Freely. You will NOT stop her from leaving. She is totally free to go and as a matter of fact you think that she SHOULD go because you just will not share a woman you have a committment with, with ANY man. Firmly, matter of factly, and confident.
YOU do not chase her. You don not tell her you lover her. YOu do not make her do anything. You just open the cage door and let her freely go. You then drop any tralk of getting back together. You are nice to her, but that is it. You don't act angry or bitter, but you don't ask for anything of her other than to move out asap because YOU HAVE NOW DECIDED that this isn't going to work unless she WANTS to be here...
THAT is they attitude that gives you the best chance to reconcile. It isn't falling all over her with endless letters of love and devotion. It is a quiet confidence of "I am ok and I will be ok, and I realize why you found someone else, BUT I am not going to do anything to reconcile if you are with someone else....
THAT comes AFTER your reconscile because she WANTS to. As long as you pressure her, she will fight the pressure.
Now, the reason this works so well is that she will secretly respect your stance because it shows confidence. She will test you, no doubt. LET HER. Just hold your ground. You have to remeomber that the wayward is very rarely positive that they are doing the right thing. They are not sure if they are making a mistake. When you allow them to go they suddenly start to question if they HAVE screwed up. IS this what I want they think? HOLD your ground when you get tough. Contniue on with your life and go out and enjoy yourself. Have fun. Let her see you are having fun. Let h er see you havging the time of your life. This is what works.
she will secretly respect your stance because it shows confidence. She will test you, no doubt. LET HER. Just hold your ground. You have to remember that the wayward is very rarely positive that they are doing the right thing. They are not sure if they are making a mistake. When you allow them to go they suddenly start to question if they HAVE screwed up. IS this what I want they think?
gucci is giving you good advice LHS. Confidence is
very attractive.
Gucci summed that up perfectly.
Print that post out and put it on your mirror, in your wallet, someplace private that you can look at it daily.
I agree with Gucci's last post, but do you really understand why she went running into OM's arms? More than one OM's arms?
Look, I have read threads from LBH's and what it does to their manhood when their W leaves them for OM. But your W had had the same thing done to her (from the female POV) and she never had therapy for what happened in her young life....and then her jerk of a H put the icing on the cake by telling her how unattractive she was. You don't do that to a young woman who struggles to have any self-esteem and wants to feel loved and accepted for who she is.
After that incident, she goes and does the unthinkable to you. In this woman's POV, I think she was looking for somebody to show her she was attractive & sexy & desirable & loveable. No, it was not a positive form of attention.....not a healthy type, but remember, she was never C about what took place when she was younger. Maybe she thinks that is the only way she can recieve affirmation of any kind is through sex. You helped that type of unhealthy thinking in the way you treated her by having sex with her immediately after discovering about her ONS. Yes, she went running back to you and you were so self-centered and insecure as a man that "she" had to affirm that you were "the man baby"! You had to know that you were bigger, better, and of course, more handsome than OM. So, you felt better! But, what about her?
God, don't you get it? It's not about you! It doesn't make any difference how much better looking you are than the OM!
Your actions have made me sick to my stomach and I think you need to get into C to learn how to grow up and become a man. This woman you are M to needs special care now b/c she is more screwed up than she's ever been in her life. It will take a very special, matured minded man to be able to help her and to get this R on health ground again.
You will have to learn how to stay balanced with the advice that Gucci and the others have given you. She doesn't need to cake eat. She doesn't need to be enabled in any A's. She does need boundaries. She doesn't need the weak sister of a male for a H. She must respect you as a man and as her H. But you've go to have what it takes and I'm wondering if you've applied anything that has been given to you.
My advice is to leave her alone and work on yourself and become the man you need to be. She needs C in order to heal and be prepared to be a W again. Both of you need to work separately on yourselves before entering back into a MR. Right now, I think you would just tear her up again, and she would react the same way she did before.....by running out and jumping into bed with the first man she found that would show her he thought she was attractive.
I haven't chimed in on this thread at all but I've read the last half dozen pages.
You remind me of me a few months ago. I think I've come down the road and made a lot of changes and understand things a lot better. I have my ups and downs and low moments (this being on of them).
The thing though is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON in this thread is telling you the same thing. But you're too scared to act on the advice. Kicking your wife to the curb is completely non-intuitive. How the hell can that work? How can pushing somebody away actually bring them back closer to you.
Surprisingly enough, it does.
She is doing nothing but cake eating. She has two men to fulfill all of her emotional needs. Two men that love her. Two men that will do whatever she wants them to do. Two men FIGHTING over her. Jeez, how great is that? How great would it feel if you had two women doing that for you? I know it would boost me regardless of how 'wrong' it is.
My advice is exactly the same as everybody else. Kick her to the curb. Stop her cake eating. Make it very clear you will NOT share her with anybody else. And while she is sharing herself with somebody else you will not enable her any further financially, sexually or emotionally. You deserve respect. You deserve somebody who loves you. You deserve to be happy.
She is disrespecting you. She doesn't love you. She is making you miserable.
The biggest thing you can do now ... grow a pair of b*lls and get on with it.
And when you kick her to the curb and break contact don't do it half-ar*ed or you've had it. Do it all on the same day. Leave her with the thought that 'WTF just happened'. Don't give her time to process it. Kick her away, close the door and ignore ALL contact unless it's business to do with the M. And even then ignore it as long as you can.
If you continue doing what you're doing you will push your W further and further away. And you will become a bigger and bigger emotional wreck.
Your one and only priority just now is you. Not her. Work on you. GAL, 180's and do whatever you need to do to ensure your emotional and mental state is preserved. You will need it for the rest of your life. For me that led me to NC. Best thing I ever did for me.
Your one and only priority just now is you. Not her. Work on you. GAL, 180's and do whatever you need to do to ensure your emotional and mental state is preserved. You will need it for the rest of your life.
Hear hear!!!!!!
Thank you all. I told her this weekend that I did not need her that I instead wanted her and that there is a huge difference. She said she thought I just wanted to save the marriage for financial reasons. I reminded her that without the family there during the week to occupy my mind all I would have to do during the week is work (I would go out on the weekends) and my income would go up, so financially divorce would be good. I told her that I could not stop her from filing and if that is what she had to to so be it. I told her that I did not intend on sharing her and that I would not wait forever for her, the day is fast approaching when I will begin dating. I told her that if she wanted to work on a R for our M I would be here to listen to what she says and if she is serious we could continue.
She is now in semi-panic mode and is reaching out to me more than ever. She is inviting me over, wanting to jointly take the kids out, and wanting to talk about our relationship more than ever.
When I told her these things she at first became physically violent (closed fist to the face 5 or 6 times), I guess when you break script they really panic. After several hours she called to apologize and has been trying to get me to spend ever increasing amounts of time with her. I have went with her one time to take the children to a indoor playground and gym. I made sure the day was 100% about the children.
I have heard from mutual friends that she is thinking more about R than ever now and that she is wondering just how big of a mistake she has made.
On another note, she did ask me why and how I could want her back after all she has done. I simply told her because I was not perfect either and we both made many mistakes and that I loved her.
I reminded her that their would be no R without independent couselling for both of us as we both have major issues to sort out. I also reminded her that no else could ever make her happy, because happiness comes from within. I am now much happier since I realize some of my issues and am trying to work on them.
She asked how I gave up my addictions to my cell phone (answering business calls 24/7, now I shut it off) and web surfing (linux forums and whatreallyhappened). I told her that the little time we do spend together or the time I spend with the kids is more important than any of that. She said she is trying to break her texting addiction and her addiction to OM. She thinks that it is just because of a need for external validation (amen). She has started seeking external validation from old high school friends and work friends that are so highly unattractive that she would consider them untouchable. I wonder if this is a misplaced effort to replace the need for OM.
We had several positives. I was kind and held her in a hug while she asked questions and cried but I did not bend to her will. I let her know that I would be strong and here for her if she wanted but that I would be more than ok without her.
I know that I have to work on the rest of the advice and that I am still learning. Thank you to everyone who has posted. I have been a POS at times during this marriage and I am in IC to work on that. My W sees changes and likes them but I feel and have heard from her friends that she is afraid to come back right now because she feels she has nothing to bring back of value to the M. She feels less than human and does not think she deserves a second chance (she has said it often). I hold much hope. Our next MC is Jan 26th and her IC starts Feb 3rd.
It is truely amazing how just telling her I would be ok without her and that I had no control over what she decided but would not stand in her way made a huge difference in her thought process.
I will continue to read, study, and learn. Please continue to give advice, chew on me, 2X4 me, kick my a$$, or anything else you feel needs done so that I learn.
I will give my address if you need to do it in person. I am dead serious about wanting to save my M and to do that I must save me first.
Sandi2, Gucci, Gnosis, Michelle, Dudess, Puppy, Trentc, Robx, and all; I thank you and ask that you please do not give up on this stubborn, slow man.
Sandi,
I think that you hit the nail on the head perfectly. I am showing her now that I am here for her if she needs me, but I have refused to enable her in the affair. I am in IC to work on me and she starts IC Feb 3rd. I wish to never tear her down again and I wish to help her rebuild her self esteem. Her love language is words of validation and she does pay for them with sex. I have been giving her words of validation and refusing sexual touch from her at the same time. I will accept hugs and I will hold her but I want her to understand that she is not a sexual object (I can always use a hand) for anyone's use but instead is a special woman to be loved. I am walking the line between pursuit and distance right now. I will not use her for sexual gratification and will not ML to her when she is with OM. I want her, but I want all of her (heart, mind, and soul) and I want to give my all to her. She now knows this and does not need to be told again. I will never just f*@k her and will only ML to her again when she has decided enough with OM and I have seen NC letter.
Sandi, please continue to weigh in as you have a understanding on this particular sitch. I wish smartcookie could weigh in as well.
I have been controlling so I am trying to 180 that without being a doormat. I know that she is deeply hurt, and confused and more messed up than ever in her life and that I had a huge hand in causing that.
I do know that when she is in my arms she sometimes weeps and holds me tighter. I say nothing I am just there to hold her and try to make her feel safe as she processes her feelings.
I think IC will help her more than I ever could and now I am just buying time until it starts.
Thank you very much Sandi for the smack of truth. I know that OM has nothing to do with sex or looks but is only there for validation of her beauty. I will continue to validate her looks, cooking, mothering, art, and work accomplishments as that is what she needs to heal, but I will not include sexual contact as part of that.
She feels cheap and used right now by OM and by me. She feels that she is little more than a common whore and she does not deserve a second chance. She has said this to me and to others.
I have told her that we both made mistakes in the marriage and that her A has been a wake up call to me for the way that I treated her and that I wish to be a better man for myself as much as for her and the children, but we could not work on R as long as she was continuing her A.
Now you have to make her believe it with your actions. Keep following through. Keep working on you. Hope the IC helps both of you.
Keep reminding yourself. Her ACTIONS not her words will show you her intentions. Don't believe what she says, and as Michele says in a couple of books, only believe half of what she does.
You WILL be fine no matter what.
Thank you MichelleLT.
The other thing that she has said time and again is that it is unfair that I am making all of these changes in me now instead of years ago when she first asked. It makes her angry.
I have told her that I was sorry but I had to hit rock bottom before I could truly see the faults that I had and the changes that I had to make.
Thank you MichelleLT.
The other thing that she has said time and again is that it is unfair that I am making all of these changes in me now instead of years ago when she first asked. It makes her angry.
I have told her that I was sorry but I had to hit rock bottom before I could truly see the faults that I had and the changes that I had to make.
Anger is a normal response, but she won't stay angry at you forever. The important thing is to make sure those changes stick, so once she's over the anger she may come to appreciate the new and improved you.
Trent is right. That angry "why didn't you listen earlier" is absolutely, totally, 110% normal. She will eventually move through that.
Just stick to your guns.
Trent is right. That angry "why didn't you listen earlier" is absolutely, totally, 110% normal.
I would say that I've heard that once or twice in the past few months.
That you are right?
LHS I haven't been of any help to you. All I asked you to do was THINK...
With that I'll leave you with a template for setting and enforcing boundaries:
Setting: When you _____, I feel ______, I want __________ .
Enforcing: if you ______ I will __________ .
I'd like you to consider that your W has a childlike mind.
She will need disciplining.
She WILL be testing your boundaries.
She WILL need to be reprimanded by you ENFORCING your boundaries.
Remember, boundaries are for YOU and how YOU want to be treated.
Here's a boundary that you should have set the minute she lay a hand on you:
When you hit me and lash out in anger, I feel you're taking advantage of me because you know I will not strike you back. I want this to stop from this point forward. If you ever lay a hand on me again I will call the police and lay charges against you. It's not something that I want to do.
The other thing that she has said time and again is that it is unfair that I am making all of these changes in me now instead of years ago when she first asked. It makes her angry.
When my W used those words my response was:
"Life isn't fair. I'm doing this for ME not you. Deal with it."
A little passive aggressive I suppose, but she got the point and I didn't show weakness.
That you are right?
No, I hear that far less. :P
Trent - LOL Well, you got one already this month then.
LHS - Something that validates is fine (more along the lines of "I understand why you feel that way" rather than "I'm sorry"). I think you started to get at what Gnosis said, but weren't as blunt.
I missed the hitting thing somehow. That's obviously an important boundary.
LHS - Something that validates is fine (more along the lines of "I understand why you feel that way" rather than "I'm sorry"). I think you started to get at what Gnosis said, but weren't as blunt.
Hey! I'm not blunt... I'm brutal... or sharp.
Sorry, LHS, life's too short to mince words.
Gnosis,
I have set that boundry and she will not be hitting me again or I will can police. This will also cost her her job as she works for a school district.
Gnosis,
I have set that boundry and she will not be hitting me again or I will can police. This will also cost her her job as she works for a school district.
Maybe I have your situation mixed up with someone else's, but haven't you already called the police about her hitting you?
LHS - Something that validates is fine (more along the lines of "I understand why you feel that way" rather than "I'm sorry"). I think you started to get at what Gnosis said, but weren't as blunt.
Hey! I'm not blunt... I'm brutal... or sharp.
Sorry, LHS, life's too short to mince words.
I have started to say this often. I have also said that I understand but do not agree.
I validated her today on being a good teacher to her children (special needs preschool) and reminded her to be happy with herself as she brings the children great happiness.
I have told her that happiness comes from within and external validation cannot create true happiness.
I am trying to get her to see the good about herself and use that to balance the bad so that she may start to be happy about herself again.
I will no longer kiss her butt, but I will praise her on her real life accomplishments.
I am keeping the childlike state of mind in memory while talking to her.
Thanks for the help so far.
I am learning it just took a little while.
I have set that boundry and she will not be hitting me again or I will can police. This will also cost her her job as she works for a school district.
OK LHS... now I'm even MORE interested in catching up with everything you've written!!!
You set that boundary but FAILED to enforce it. I know it's going to be and extremely tough one to execute. When she crosses that boundary AND SHE has before and WILL again. You call the police. You get them to come to the house to show that you are not bluffing. This will create the RESPECT she needs for you. You get them to right up the charges.
Don't worry, it won't be the end of her career. You tell the cops that you'll be there the next day to file charges. Then you let her stew overnight.... and the next day. That evening you go to the police station and withdraw the charges.
Call your lawyer (go to the police station if you have to) and find out how far you push before it goes on record. This is so you can give her a reprieve later. BUT SHE NEEDS TO STEW IN IT FOR A WHILE.
Gnosis,
I have set that boundry and she will not be hitting me again or I will can police. This will also cost her her job as she works for a school district.
Maybe I have your situation mixed up with someone else's, but haven't you already called the police about her hitting you?
I threatened to once but I did not mean it and she knew it. This time she knew and was very worried. She started crying and feels that now she is becoming the same abuser she had to put up with as a child.
I need to keep it together until she starts IC on Feb 3rd.
She knows of her anger issues and readily admits them. She wants IC but still even today (child like state of mind) wants me to take care of taxes, lawyer, C, etc.
I set her first appointment like she asked, the C will set the rest and W will gladly go as she wants to be better for the children. I have faith that IC will help our R as well. As she handles her individual issues (as I am handling mine) we will then start to make forward progress in MC
I have told her that happiness comes from within and external validation cannot create true happiness.
I am trying to get her to see the good about herself and use that to balance the bad so that she may start to be happy about herself again.
Believe me when I tell you that you're going to say this a million times. It will only register for a brief moment. Only when she truly and honestly goes to work in IC will she start to recover from this. (I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT HERE)
I am keeping the childlike state of mind in memory while talking to her.
Please do because part of her mind is still the age she was when she was abused. It has not grown or matured. Her perception of self is going to be the biggest obstacle to overcome.
With that in mind... do whatever you can to bust up that affair ASAP. Disregard her anger. Disregard her threats. Do whatever is needed to accomplish that goal. Only when the OM is completely out of the picture will your journey start.
but still even today (child like state of mind) wants me to take care of taxes, lawyer, C, etc.
Sorry, that's out of the question. She needs to and has to learn to take care of those things for herself. She has rejected you as a partner. These are the consequences....
Boundary: If you are involved with OM, I feel like I don't have a W and you have abandoned me. I want you to start acting like my W again and get rid of him. If you continue your relationship with him I cannot and will not be there for you. You will have to do XYZ all on your own.
That boundary will trigger her rejection issues, but it will also give her the choice. So you will not be abandoning her, she is abandoning you. See the difference?
Use reverse psychology to turn her fears against her. Nasty, I know, but necessary in your sitch. If you have any questions on the phrasing before you voice your boundaries, run them past here first.
Gnosis,
No more taking care of setting appointments for her, got it. She can put on her big girl panties and set her own appointments from now on.
I will have to take care of the taxes as I have run the numbers and it is more advantageous for us to file jointly for 2009. I will have refund deposited in separate account and give her no more than half.
I will also delay filing taxes through filing an extension.
I find no need to pay her to leave me until we have had more IC and MC.
She is still undecided but reacts with her 14 year old mind in snap decisions. If she has money to file she might before she has time to think over the repercussions.
The IC will get more answers than I ever could.
If she wants you to be a partner, she has to be your partner. If she doesn't want to be your monogomous W, then you don't do the extra little helpful things you would do for your W. You do things that are for the kids and for you (and taxes are about you).
When her actions show that she wants to really be your partner, then doing those things you only do for your partner is acceptable.
But until she is ready, you must act like you are S and getting D. You must let her deal with the reality she has created.
It won't be pretty, but a person has to hit bottom and really want help before they can grow.
So let her hit bottom.
She is calling and inviting me over everyday for the last 5 days now. Her attitude seems to have changed a lot since I talked to her two days ago and told her that I did not need her, but wanted her and that if she wanted to file for D I would not stand in her way.
She asked me over for dinner last night and I went. I made the evening all about the kids and S2 fell asleep on my chest. I let him sleep there for 45 min while W gave S4 his bath. Had a good conversation with S12 at the same time.
W tried to cuddle earlier in the night. I did not exactly reject her I just encouraged younger sons to come up on our laps and read them a book.
After the bath we put S2 and S4 to bed and she wanted to be held. She sit next to me and turned to face me and wrapped her arms around me. I held her in the hug as well. She said that the hugs are starting to feel better.
She then kissed me and for the first time since NYE her eyes were closed while doing so (she only closes her eyes when she is feeling "it", I never close mine). I broke off the kiss, thanked her for dinner, and left.
I did not follow her in the house and acted as if I was completely uninterested in what she was doing when she was not actively talking to me.
She said last night was the best we spent together in several weeks.
She text me a joke at bedtime last night and wished me good night. This morning she called and wished me good morning and to have a good day. She hinted around at wanting me to come over tonight. I will wait until she comes right out and asks. If she asks I will go and spend time with the kids and only spend time with her if she initiates. I have told her that I do not need her and without her my income will actually go up as I am a workahaulic and without family around I will work on my business 16 hours or so a day (I will go out on the weekends).
She said she thought that I only wanted to save our M for financial reasons. I reminded her that financially a D would be benificial for me. I want to save the M because I want her, but I would be ok without her, it is her decision.
I think that this has created a big turning point for us. I have let her know she is wanted and that I am here if she wants to work on us, but I will not pine away and die without her.
Any thoughts?
This sounds extremely positive.
Has she asked you what it will take to work things out? Has she proposed counseling?
TrentC,
She has not asked yet what it will take to work it out. She is talking about steps she will need to take if she gets to the point she wants to work things out.
She has listed friends that were enemies of the marriage that need to be thrown under the bus and has started to slowly distance herself from them.
She has not checked her voicemail on her phone since Jan 14th.
She has started to ignore OM some but they still communicate through text (she is spending more time talking to other friends than OM)
She has stated that she will have to change phone numbers and give up her private phone.
She knows most of what to do, but she is talking about it more lately. I listen and validate.
She has IC scheduled for Feb 3rd (first appointment) and we have MC scheduled for Jan 26th (4th appointment).
It sounds like you are on the right track.
Now you need to be patient and watch the changes that she is making.
When it comes down to it, she knows that she will have to give OM up for good at some point. The MC and the IC will both tell her this.
She just called and said S4 got sick at school and she came home with him. He attends the Preschool she works at. She was very friendly and upbeat and wanted to visit for a minute. I listened we shared a laugh or two and then I told her I had to get back to what I was doing and hung up the phone.
She is initiating quite a bit of contact at the moment and I am not falling all over myself for her.
I have started to act confident again. I have told her how I feel and given her the email that was posted earlier. Those things do not need to be said again.
I am only acting confident in my ability to be ok with or without her and she is beginning pursuit.
I will not ignore her but I will not fall all over myself for her either. Kind, loving, but confident in myself is what I am going for right now and she is pursuing me.
I still need to keep from hitting her too hard until her Feb 3rd IC date as right now she is exited to begin and I don't want her to back out.
Any thoughts on this course of action?
I have told her that happiness comes from within and external validation cannot create true happiness.
How great a difference is there between this true internal happiness and the faux externally validated happiness?
How does one achieve true happiness from within? and how does one maintain it? or validate that it is really coming from within and not from something a simple as a childrens smile?
I am trying to get her to see the good about herself and use that to balance the bad so that she may start to be happy about herself again.
But isnt it a hell of alot easier to run to another man to feel good about oneself? and quick too (with the praises, the compliments, the attention) with that comes happiness? no need to balance anything no need to try. How are YOU getting her to realize the good in herself and "balance" it with the bad?
Just Curious, because she hasnt given up the other man.
you are ok with that?
Steve,
I am not ok with the OM being there and I have let it be known. She feels very guilty when she sees or talks to OM and I believe that is why she is starting to ignore him again.
She reminds me of a junkie. She feels angry after we have an argument, she looks for a fix to make her feel better (talking to or seeing OM), he tells her she is good and just, she leaves or hangs up on OM, reality sets in and she feels guilty about getting her 'high'.
This comes from her observed behavior. I am counting on the IC to help her with her external validation issue. It is not until she learns to validate and value herself that she will be happy. Until she is happy with herself she is not much good to me.
Running to OM makes her feel good for a short period of time and after that wears off she feels the guilt and has said on numerous occasions that she is worthless and no man should want her because she is a cheat.
This is for the IC to help her with.
I am beginning to be happy again and what it took for me was to realize my issues that need work and to begin working on them. Also realizing that I had been unpleasant to be around for my family and friends. I have been changing these attitudes and habits and giving more of myself to my family and my friends. When I do this I see their happiness and it makes me feel good about me.
This is the way my wife used to be and she is hurting because she is missing the feeling of self worth.
True internal happiness (and it took several months to learn) comes from admitting your faults and working on them and being kind and loving to others. You recieve that witch you give. For so long I gave grief and anger. No more.
I know that W sees and knows the difference as she pops out of the fog every so often.
I am still a work in progress and I have backslid several times and when I do, like a groundhog, my wife scrabbles back to the fog.
I need to work more on consistent.
I do appreciate the 2X4's. Latest one from Steve McQueen. Most hard hitting and probably true from Sandi2.
I just wish that I was in the room with some of you so that these 2X4's would be real. I seem to need them.
I said in the beginning that I would need several and you guys have provided.
Don't give up on me. I am listening. Just a little slow on the uptake.
You are right that you need to be consistent.
You are taking a good approach.
Be prepared for the long haul.
Her issues WILL NOT FIX THEMSELVES OVERNIGHT.
It will take time and consequences.
She will probably backslide on occasions. She will probably spew at you on occasion.
It's not all uphill from here.
Just a friendly reality check.
Long haul it is Michelle. I think that true forward progress will not happen until she start IC on Feb 3rd
True progress for her will start when she has her self-realizations. IC can help with that. It will probably take a few sessions to really hit her though.
This is something she has to do for herself.
I know you are doing MC, are you doing IC as well?
Michelle,
I am in IC as well with a local pastor. My issues are being worked on and are a ways from being fixed yet.
This is a life long repair mission. My journey of wanting to be a better man can never stop. I have had a very controlling personality since I was 6 years old and now I am 33. I had a uninvolved mother and alcoholic father. I took care of the younger children (fed and changed them) so it would get done. I have never liked to lose.
This behaviors are being worked on and I will still slip up from time to time. I just want the times between slip ups to become longer and longer. They are and I am making forward progress. I hit rock bottom and it was powerful for me.
This is how I know that IC is so important to my sitch with W.
Thanks for asking.
Your current approach is certainly a vast improvement over what you were doing. But this:
LHS wrote:
"I told her that I could not stop her from filing and if that is what she had to to so be it. I told her that I did not intend on sharing her and that I would not wait forever for her, the day is fast approaching when I will begin dating."
is not the same things as this:
gucci wrote:
"You will NOT stop her from leaving. She is totally free to go and as a matter of fact you think that she SHOULD go because you just will not share a woman you have a committment with, with ANY man. Firmly, matter of factly, and confident."
In what way are you refusing to enable her in the affair? She still lives in the house with the kids. You still go over and spend family time together and cuddle and kiss her if she initiates it and hold her while she cries. You just won't have sex with her. Well at least she has OM for that. Meanwhile, you live in an apartment and go without sex. What's wrong with this picture?
If she had to choose, I think she'd choose you, but right now she has the best of both worlds.
Dudess,
I agree with you. I am trying to buy time until she starts her IC. She is very reactive but respects people she perceives as having authority. She will not back out of C once she starts unless the C tells her not to come any more.
She may, however, refuse to go in the first place if I throw her out of the house before she starts.
I did tell her if she wants OM she should go be with him. She restated that she is not sure what she wants. I said sorry you feel that way, let me know when you do.
I will be ready to get tougher once she is in IC.
I am trying to buy time until she starts her IC. She is very reactive but respects people she perceives as having authority. She will not back out of C once she starts unless the C tells her not to come any more.
Hasn't your MC told her that sleeping with other people in incompatible with having a good marriage?
It is troubling that she has too much respect for someone in authority. There are good counselors out there, but there are a lot of dreadful ones too. Please don't pin too much hope on the counselor. Yeah, a good one can help a lot, and a bad one can make things much worse. What if she gets one who encourages her to leave you because of your past control and abuse?
She may, however, refuse to go in the first place if I throw her out of the house before she starts.
I don't know that you need to kick her out of the house, but guy friends don't cuddle and kiss.
I did tell her if she wants OM she should go be with him. She restated that she is not sure what she wants. I said sorry you feel that way, let me know when you do.
You are putting your life in her hands when you wait on her to tell you what she wants. What do YOU want?
Dudess,
I want the marriage but in the mean time I have been visiting with old friends, working out, and diving back into the business.
Our MC has said that an A is bad but that it is not yet time to call her out on it. W is very defensive and MC is trying to get her to see the error of the A on her own.
IC will help this.
C is very pro-marriage and is a follower of Michelle's.
W does not know this yet and the C does not yet want to tip her hand. C says that IC will help much more than MC right now as W has to realize why she allowed herself to have her A.
C is working with me on my Control issues and has told W that she sees changes in me but knows that it will take more time to make them stick. She told W that I am as open to change now as I have ever been and now is the time for W to ask for any changes she wants or needs.
C being a DB follower helps a lot and she is very pro-marriage but is playing those cards close to her chest to not alienate my W.
Sounds like a good C for you. Hope that W has similar success with IC.
When will you move back into the house?
What actions does she have to take before you will agree to try and R? This goes both to your boundaries and actions she will have to take to convince you she is serious. Think over these carefully because you will need to tell these to her - it is not necessarily obvious to her that you want transparency, no contact with OM, etc.)
Until then, what are the boundaries (I'm reiterating what Dudess is saying about the fact that you cuddle and kiss even though you are not "together")?
MC is also her IC
I have been told by MC that move back to the house is on agenda for W's IC
Minimum actions for R: Dump already identified toxic friends, NC with OM, passwords to e-mail, facebook, and online phone records.
She will have to apologize and admit wrong doing to our mutual friends at some point early in the process.
She will begin wearing her wedding rings again and update FB status to married.
I am working on boundaries for myself.
I want the physical contact with her as it is my primary love language. She knows this and will see not touching her as abandonment.
Right now I refuse to so much as shake her hand when she has seen OM in the past 36 hour period. When she has seen OM all of my conversations with her take on a cool business like manner. She has seen this and does not like it. She has backed off with OM because of my treatment of her. When she has not seen him I will hug, hold, and kiss her if she initiates.
I am trying to treat as "reward good behavior and punish bad behavior"
Also when she has seen OM I withhold all validation of her beauty, work accomplishments, mothering, etc. When she refrains from seeing OM I validate her.
More trying to reward good behavior.
As of now she appears to be trying to receive the rewards from me. C has wondered if the OM started and is still being used as a tool to hurt me like I hurt W for several years.
I did not have A but I did destroy her self esteem.
She was sexually assaulted at 14 years old and I think that part of her mind is there now. She is acting like a 14 year old.
That is why I am trying reward/punish model right now.
Most WASs act like disturbed teenagers. That is part of the script. I don't disagree with your being more distant when she has seen OM, but the perspective bothers me.
You are talking about her like she is a dog you are training. Rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior.
It doesn't sound like you are doing it for you, but that you are trying to control her.
These boundaries and changes have to be for you. Otherwise you'll be back in the same dysfunctional R you were before.
Just my 2 cents.
Thank you Michelle. I understand. She is not a dog to be trained but she is acting like a child.
The boundary of not touching her is for me. If I did touch her when she has seen OM I would be disgusted and begin to hate myself for doing so. That would be reflected in the way that I treat her. She is confused and afraid and needs to be shown love and for me to touch her prematurely I know that the resentment in me would cause me to treat he like dirt again.
The cooling off period is so that I treat her well again.
Treating her well really is a 180 for me so I am trying to continue it and she is responding favorably at the moment.
I have to withhold my affections for a period of time after she has seen OM to show my own self respect and to not allow my resentment to grow. If I touched her right away I would feel it was because I was forced not because I wanted to.
It's easy to take for granted the constants in our life. I think most of us were guilty of that as LBSs.
The way you phrase your boundary in this last post is better.
That has to be how you think about the situation though. From a perspective of only having control over you, cuz you are the only one you have any control over.
You are hoping that these changes will have a positive impact on her, and that's fine. But always be careful not to forget that you can't control her actions. She makes her choices, and you make yours.
And if you make good choices, you will have no regrets about how you handled this regardless of the outcome.
And regardless of the outcome, you will be fine. You will be a better person for your struggle.
I have to withhold my affections for a period of time after she has seen OM to show my own self respect and to not allow my resentment to grow.
A 36 hour waiting period after she has been with OM doesn't show a whole lot of self respect IMO.
Dudess,
I know it does not but it is enough for her to get the point and miss my touch and it is enough for me to get over feelings of resentment.
After she enters IC to work on her issues I will increase the waiting period. I do not want to spark her abandonment fear and cause her to run to OM.
Michelle,
Thank you for all the advice thus far.
Everyone else,
Thank you for all the help. I am seeing positives in baby steps right now.
She wanted me to come over again today at 3:00 pm for the evening but I am doing my laundry and working on bids.
She keeps texting me jokes and telling me good night. I thank her for the joke and simply reply good night. No elaboration required but she is making a effort to contact me several times per day now. I am staying loving but controlled and not eager.
I stand by what I told her. I want her, I do not need her and financially I would be better off without her.
This I think is causing her to begin to pursue me some.
What do you think?
I stand by what I told her. I want her, I do not need her and financially I would be better off without her.
I know YOU think that when you told her that, it was some type of epithany to HER... I realize you think you got through to her with that great stance and wonderful line....
Want the truth?
It meant nothing. I hate to bust your bubble. Telling a woman you don't need her, but want her while she is seeing you and another man is silly and senseless and means nothing. It only means something to YOU. You are thinking. "I guess I told her".. You actually are showing her the exact oposite.. WEAKNESS. That you ARE and WILL put up with her having you and another guy at the same time. That shows more that you NEED her than it does that you don't need her. NO? You ARE still hanging with her aren't you? Exactly my point if you say yes. So where is your ACTION that you can LIVE without Her? It isn't there.
You want to know when that will mean something to her?
When you LIVE it to her. When you pull back from her by showing her with ACTION that you won't share your wife with another man and give HER time to decide. That maybe YOU are done. Maybe YOU need some time to think.....
THAT is when you will give her the message that you CAN live without her. YOU are NOT giving her that message just because you told her some line you thought was good to you. You are mistaken and have taken that way out of context and way of of importance to the truth.
You don't just want pursuit from her, you WANT her to give up the OM and WANT to be with you and YOU alone..
It is called exclusive. All women know what that means.
It means one man and one womam in a relationship....
If she isn't giving you EXCLUSIVE then you are being the fool...
Men who GET the woman NEVER play the fool.. NEVER...
So, don't you have enough confidence in who you are and how it is her loss if she screws up here to call her bluff and let her think that she took too long?
Or didn't you mean it when you said you "could" live without her and would be better financially without her... What is stopping you then?
gucci,
great points. Only love for her and my sons is stopping me. I would rather us be together but I am sure that I could easily make it without her.
I will have to rethink this again. I know that she has affaired down in a big way, so it would be her loss. I just need to figure out how to convey that message.
One bright side: I have gone and done a few things that I have always wanted and she has said that it is nice that I can go live it up while she is broke and at home (OM will not take her out). This has shown her that I will live life without her.
I love rappeling, climbing, my motorcycle, visiting friends, dance class, and soon I will try skydiving. I am not going to just wait for her, but I do want to be available when she is ready.
Hi, I only skimmed through the later part of your thread, and also while I would not presume to speak for Gucci, I think his point covers the fact that your "availability" is a problem. Why the heck should she ever be "ready" when she can have the best of all worlds?
You would still not be living the fact (and yes it has to be a fact) that you can be without her.
And really, while it is just my personal view, I think you should stop giving yourself the excuse that it is love for your sons and her that is stopping you. If it comes to the crunch, everyone will survive. It's fear and being entrenched in the comfort zone that's stopping you. Whether to stay in that zone is your choice.
Best wishes in any case.
Deep,
I see you are in R. Please tell me more. I know that my fear is taking a role here. I need to beat it. Every week I am separated the less it hurts.
Reading deep's first post now. Want to learn more.
She keeps texting me jokes and telling me good night. I thank her for the joke and simply reply good night. No elaboration required but she is making a effort to contact me several times per day now. I am staying loving but controlled and not eager.
This is her way to keeping you involved in her life. If you respond in any fashion, then she knows she's winning. You don't reply whatsoever to her emails, TM's, nothing. It must be an extreme emergency (life & death) before you acknowlege her attempt to contact you.
The most I read from LBH's (who are suppose to be detaching) is that they don't want to be "rude", so they reply. Forget using good manners with a WAW. She is a different breed and you can't do that with her.
Sand2,
Does this go for her calling me and being very friendly and happy sounding. Also she is inviting me over again tonight to spend time with the children and her. I would like to go to see the children. When I make the focus on the children, she observes me and smiles frequently. She has told me that she wants to be near me when I make the focus the kids because then she feels no pressure from me. When this happens she reaches out to me.
Should I ignore her invitation?
S12 has said that she is not talking to OM as far as he can tell. She is however talking to other friends more. These friends live more than 300 miles away and are old high school friends. Two female friends and two male friends. The male friends were platonic back then and are not much of a threat, I hope. I saw evidence where she told them that nothing would ever happen between them.
Since she is using OM for external validation, is it possible she is trying to replace OM with the old friends through facebook?
Thanks again.
Change things up. Tell her you are taking the kids somewhere. Or take the kids to your apt for a while. If you guys do get D you won't be going over to the house all the time to see the kids, you will have unsupervised custody of them a good chunk of the time.
Don't always let it be on her terms. If she thinks she wants D, let her see what it'll be like to have that empty house all to herself while you have fun with the kids.
I see your point Michelle. I should grab the kids in the middle of the week an take them for a few hours. That way she cannot make plans and she is alone in house to feel it.
I have started making her come see me some as well, when she wants to see me.
I don't truly believe she wants D (she has had too many opportunities to file or at least move that she has not taken). I think she is acting like Smartcookie did and is using this to punish me for years of hurting her self esteem.
I seem to be getting forward progress out of her now. I will follow this advice as well Michelle. I will get the kids some on my schedule.
Only love for her and my sons is stopping me. Is it your love or your fear?
I just need to figure out how to convey that message.gucci laid it all out for you right here dude:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1921378&page=11Since she is using OM for external validation, is it possible she is trying to replace OM with the old friends through facebook?Probably, seeing as how you are so cool with it. Always good to have a back-up if you can get away with it.
I think she is acting like Smartcookie did and is using this to punish me for years of hurting her self esteem.
Your wife's behavior is waaaaay beyond anything smartcookie did and I don't think she did it to "punish" her H.
Do you feel like you need to be punished? Is that one thing that keeps you tolerating OM?
let her see what it'll be like to have that empty house all to herself while you have fun with the kids.
Well, . . . unless she decides she wants company. KWIM?
Dudess,
I do think I needed punished to effect a change within myself. I also feel like I have been punished enough.
I am not ok with her getting any external validation, but at this point I would rather it be online than in real life.
I love her and I do have fear that if I move too rashly she will back out of IC before she starts.
Gucci has it laid out well, I will have to start following that after Feb 3rd. Before that she may panic and kill IC.
I think her being in IC will help more than most other things I can do and at the moment she is excited to start.
I do think I needed punished to effect a change within myself. I also feel like I have been punished enough.
I'm glad to hear that.
Just to clarify my thoughts on what gucci said, I don't think you necessarily need to tell her to move out of the house, especially because you have already moved out.
Do what's best for your kids. I guess W has been the primary caretaker? Does she also have a part time or full time job?
She works full time as a preschool teacher for a local school district. She clears about $200.00 per month after paying for gas to travel to work and for daycare for S2.
She works to make her happy and give her something to do, not because her income is needed.
I told her years ago that I did not care what she did for a job as long as she broke even.
For years working with the children and interacting with the other teachers and parents made her happy and she accomplished many good things with the kids.
I did not tell her I was proud of her for those accomplishments. In fact at times I discounted them. This contributed to the crisis that I am in today.
It has not been quite two weeks since you joined the board. I can see how you would look at her invitations as encouraging, but if you keep going to her house and "make her come to yours", instead of backing off.....it won't last. Oh, she may go back to you, but it will be for a short time....and then she'll have another man and be right back where she was when she left. You are pushing. You are too focused on fixing her instead of fixing yourself.
I don't understand why she would go to MC before going to IC. How can you expect the MR to work if she does not have personal issues healed first? Again, it can be temporary or it can be permanent.
You don't want her to leave OM out of guilt. Feeling guilty may be the first positive sign in some cases, but you want her to choose you b/c she wants you and sees you more attractive than the OM.....not b/c she feels rotten to the core due to contacting him.
You said you would follow what Gucci laid out for you after Feb. 3rd. I think you are scared. She is going to sense that fear and it will push her away. If you are a smart man, you'll start implementing Guici's advice now.
You want your W to be more confident and independent. Do you know how to allow that to happen? It's not by making decisions for her. It is not by all this "help" you are trying to do for her. I think you need to stop going to her house to "visit the kids" b/c that is the biggest "stuff" I've heard! You go by and pick up the kids (without visiting with her) and you keep them for two or three days.....(instead of two or three hourse)....and you'll have a closer picture to what you need to do and what she needs for you to do.
Sandi,
I have told the wife that I want the kids Friday through sunday eve every other week.
I do have some fear and I am trying to suppress that monster.
MC was because I asked for it in the beginning and she thought it a good idea to help heal her anger.
I do need to quit being available to her.
I have even wondered if it may be time to go on group dates with others.
I don't want her to run again but the fence sitting is not good either.
Thank you.
step one: own my fear and conquer it.
It's not fence sitting if you are busy working on yourself. I think you are just trying to find a magic formula that will fix the R. You have been give the formula that works......but there isn't any magic in it and it doesn't happen in the blink of an eye.
Thank you sandi2. I am beginning to formulate a plan to achieve results. I am only looking for baby steps at the moment.
I will dig deep and work on myself harder. Tonight I go out with a group of friends and work on developing PMA.
Today is much better. I am still being distant and detached when she text or calls. She had a old friend down who does not agree with her last night. Friend told her that she was being foolish and they talked a while.
This morning at about 4:30 I checked W's facebook profile and saw that she removed ONS and OM as her friends on facebook.
At 9 this morning she text me good morning and wants to get together tomorrow.
I wonder if she is starting NC with OM as I laid out as a requirement for R.
I will find out tomorrow, but I am hopeful.
I have not let her know that I have seen her profile yet.
I am still being distant and detached when she text or calls.
No......you're not. In fact, you seem to know what she was doing and what was said to her by whom.....yada, yada. Let it go and stop looking at her, stop listening at her, and stop talking to her. Focus on yourself.
Sandi is right again. I am projecting detached to her but I am not yet in reality detached.
I am focusing on myself mainly but I do have time that I am watching her. I have to work on this. Observe and obsess are two different things.
I have to recognize the difference.
So how are you doing today?
Sandi,
I messed up bad but set a great boundary as well.
I noticed Saturday she no longer had OM as a FB friend (turns out that was S12 but did not know that at the time)
Sunday I went to house and spent time with W. She had not seen OM in over a week. We watched movies and I played with the boys from 12pm until 8pm. Had a good day. She asked me back to the room to finish watching movie. Stripped down and cuddled. I was rubbing her back a little and she was responding well. She went from nothing to ready to go in under 5 min. I gave in. We ML and she was very nice and loving during it.
I left after lovemaking session and went back "home".
At 11pm she called me and asked if I could come help with S2. He has bad ear infection. She had him asleep beside her so I climbed into bed.
I was tired because as my GAL I went out with friends Fri and Sat and stayed out until 4am each night. She had 3 old friends down and had bs session all weekend.
I fell asleep. S2 woke up and W started yelling at me about how I never help and I should know what she wants. I told her I was not a mind reader and if she wanted me to take S2 to the other room all she had to do was ask.
She said that I should just know what she wants and she should not have to tell me and called a few names. I responded that maybe white knight trailer trash retarded non-career having OM could help her and read her mind.
She screamed that this had nothing to do with him (badname) and then hit me in the face and clawed me.
I had had enough. I picked her up and put her down on her back on the bed with her arms held over her head and told her to never hit me again. She tried to bite me and kicked until she threw both of us on the floor. I held on. I told her that I respected myself too much to ever let her hit me again and that if she did I would dial 911.
She screamed at me about being worthless, both her and I, and asked me to kill myself 3 times. I said F U.
Went to other room and she was wanting to talk. I let her know that I was keeping a copy of every text message she ever sent me and that some of them she admits cheating and if we divorce I will be answering all questions anyone asks in full detail as I will not lie for her. She said that I would ruin her reputation and she hit me again.
I got up told her she messed up and went for the phone. She immediately started crying and screaming and told me she was so sorry trying to put herself in my arms. Me calling would lose her her job. Said I don't care.
I called 911. Wife tried to swallow a bunch of pills that I took away from her. Officer showed up and I sent him away with a story about a shed fire. I told W that this is her one and only pass as I need her insurance to pay for our MC and her IC.
We have MC today and she starts IC Feb 3rd.
I did find that W thinks of herself as below me and as worthless. She said several times over the last week that she did not know why any man let alone me would ever want her. She said she is dirty, used, ugly, stupid, bad mom, bad wife, etc.
I told her earlier on Sun that I like some of the things that she has become. She talks with friends more and laughs and jokes more with her friends. She will stand up for herself more and not let me disrespect her. I told her these traits I like and I respect that part of her more today and want to be a part of it.
I told her that the A is the biggest problem left and that it needs to end posthaste. She agreed that A is problem but said that she feels addicted to external validation.
After we had officer leave I told her that the broken shell of a woman that would think it is ok to hit me and say such hateful things is not attractive at all and no one would ever want that woman. I told her that I want the loving woman I saw earlier in the day.
She said she hates herself for becoming an abuser and having an A.
Anyone who has read this sitch, knows that she was beat her whole life by her father and other boyfriends before me. She was also sodomized by her dad's drug buddies on two occasions when she was 14 and raped by a classmate at 16. Never any C for any of this.
Her actions seem to be stuck at self pity, self despair, and self anger through the eyes of that hurt teenager.
I will speak to MC for a few min alone today and ask if we should put MC on hold for a bit until she has had a little time in IC.
Again W is excited to start IC an knows she has anger issues and does not want them to come to light with boys. She has already acted badly at times with S12 and I have intervened.
I still have hope but she needs to have some personal work done before we can continue towards R.
And I know that I should not have went to bed with her, but I love her so much that when she is acting loving towards me, I cannot resist her. I am weak in that regard I know. My main love language is touch and I still crave touch from her in anyway that I can get it. I am not using her for sex but she may be using me.
To me ML to her is the ultimate completion of intimacy and I go out of my way to ensure she is pleased. It pleases me to please her. I like feeling her heartbeat and breathing her breath.
No other woman has had this effect on me. I have never been capable of having just sex with my W.
She knows this and sometimes is a loving and good partner and at others is mechanical.
I need her in IC to work through her issues before we can go forward.
LHS,
You TELL her one set of things; you DO quite another.
She knows this, and so she plays you, and continues to literally ABUSE you, and eat cake while doing so.
Enough with the "free passes"; time to ACT. When you're ready to have your live stop being an episode of "COPS", let us know.
Puppy
And I know that I should not have went to bed with her, but I love her so much that when she is acting loving towards me, I cannot resist her. I am weak in that regard I know. My main love language is touch and I still crave touch from her in anyway that I can get it. I am not using her for sex but she may be using me.
Gee, ya THINK?? Congratulations -- you've been "tagged."
Until you learn to STOP doing what you KNOW is the wrong thing to do, you will get nowhere. DBing isn't complicated, but it DOES take an incredible amount of self-discipline.
Puppy
Puppy,
We are going to MC today and I am going to talk to C about suspending MC for a while while wife works on IC.
I am tired of this crap and let her know that on Monday morning.
I think my setting the boundary and her breaking it is the last straw.
She knows now that if she hits me again she will have her a$$ setting in jail.
She will lose her job if she is jailed for an assault as she works for a school district. She will not be able to support herself (as if she could now).
I do not care about any of that and she was told and believes that. Her job is needed for insurance for C but I can manage other ways if she pulls this crap again.
I feel that IC for her is very important so that her abusive trend does not continue with the boys.
I hate myself for giving in to her and sleeping with her. I want her and that is well known but I have had enough being used.
Puppy,
A man can only take so much being hit and being told hateful things before he says enough.
ENOUGH
Thank you.
Puppy,
I might mention that I and others have noticed that my W acts like two totally different people.
At times she is a responsible adult, good mother, and loving wife.
Other times she is selfish, hateful, neglectful mother, and just generally acting the same as she did when she was 14.
I have heard that when a person is abused or sexually assaulted that part of their brain stops developing and stays at that date.
Could this be true?
She was sodomized at 14 and when she is acting as if she is 14 she uses a combination of slang from when we were 14 and slang my s12 and his friends use. She dresses and carries herself as if she was 14 or so. She also formulates thoughts and sentences in the manner of a kid. This confuses me.
One day complete childish behavior and the next she is a responsible adult.
It is like I am dealing with a slight split personality. Has anyone else had to deal with this?
All WASs act childish. That is certainly not unique. They all have mood swings, they all go back and forth between kindness and spew depending on the day.
Your W is NOT unique. I am not trying to minimize what happened to your W, but you will almost NEVER find a WAS who had a normal well-adjusted childhood and is not suffering from depression when they decide to have an A or ask for D. That would be a special case.
She doesn't KNOW anything about your boundary cuz you didn't follow through. You blew the cop off and let her get away with it. Your ACTIONS told her you won't go through with it. You blew the boundary setting.
Michelle,
I did blow the boundary but that will not happen again.
Should I suspend MC for her to concentrate on her IC? Same C doing both and the C is very pro-marriage and a DB follower.
And I know that I should not have went to bed with her, but I love her so much that when she is acting loving towards me, I cannot resist her. I am weak in that regard I know. My main love language is touch and I still crave touch from her in anyway that I can get it. I am not using her for sex but she may be using me.
Gee, ya THINK?? Congratulations -- you've been "tagged."
Until you learn to STOP doing what you KNOW is the wrong thing to do, you will get nowhere. DBing isn't complicated, but it DOES take an incredible amount of self-discipline.
Puppy
Puppy we need your help in MB 28's thread now, 5 alarm fire going on!
Thanks,
Burt
Sorry to hijack!
You are asking things that only a doctor could determine. I do believe your W has serious problems that stem from her past. I do not know that you have what it takes to endure the length of time her therapy may require.
You say she acts like a spit personality and when you see the warm side of her that is when you melt. You've proven that more than once, and that is why you are not showing the strength in a man that this woman needs. Yes, she has a lot of problems, but you are responding such as irresponsible to her actions as she is in hers. In your mind, you are doing the best you can, but what I'm saying is that this is a tragedy waiting to happen.
Just like her grabbing those pills when you were making that call. If the two of you keep going like this, she is going to act out on one of her dramas and nobody will be there to rescue her in time. She is desparately trying to have control in a life she feels is worthless and has gone haywire. But, everything she does goes south b/c she doesn't have the proper skills, apparently, and things keep getting worse by the day.
I know you want to help her, but I think you need to back away and stay away from her and let the doctors help her. Of course, you've been told to leave her alone....to back away....to detach, but you have not done that. You act as co-dependent on her as she is on you. That is why I think you need to be in IC, also. But, you need to work on your problems and let her work on hers and the two of you leave each other alone. Some day.....far, far away, maybe the two of you will be healthy enough to come together. BTW, have you checked the degrees of this C? B/c if this is some C off the street, I assure you that more damage can be done in a short time, and your W can't afford for that to happen. She needs "real" professional help.
You act as co-dependent on her as she is on you. That is why I think you need to be in IC, also. But, you need to work on your problems and let her work on hers and the two of you leave each other alone. Some day.....far, far away, maybe the two of you will be healthy enough to come together.
EXACTLY
Sandi,
2X4 received and accepted.
I do crave her touch but when it turned abusive again I have decided enough. I am backing away this time. I cannot take her hitting me any more.
Our C has been in this business for 26 years is a liscensed Marriage and family therapist. C has a MS, LCMFT, NCC, AAMFT. C also is a certified trainer for AAMFT. She is a DB follower and is also a follower of the 5 LL.
I know my wife needs pro help and she is excited to be getting it.
I am willing to wait while she is in IC and I know that this can take many months or longer to work out.
I have been GAL'ing with old friends that I have not talked to in years. I am to visit another one tomorrow.
I am in IC with a local pastor about my controlling issues and have seen lots of improvement in myself and my attitude.
I no longer worry about what she is doing and with whom. I understand that I cannot control her actions and do not want to.
This is all a 180 for me. I just need to work on that melting thing, because she can play me that way.
I have a few women that are very interested in seeing me, but to this point I have turned them all down. I had been waiting on wife and only going out as a group with my friends.
Lately I have been considering taking up some of the offers but I still want to remain faithful to my W.
I know we are S and that I do not have to remain faithful but I take that vow seriously.
The problem is she knows this and can use my need for touch to play me.
Should I start dating while we are both in IC? Would that help create a crisis for her or would it push her farther away?
My PMA is pretty good when I am out with friends and talking to friends. It is only poor when alone or after W and I have a argument.
You sound like a WAS trying to justify dating.
Dating shows that you are moving on. That you are done fighting for the M. It is appropriate when you are done.
Furthermore, it complicates things. What would you do if you do meet someone, it starts to get serious, and then your W want to R? Dump the new girl? Is that fair to her? Is that fair to you?
Go out with your friends. Enjoy the time alone and with friends. Spend time with your kids, and enjoy it. Help with their homework, play with them.
Let your W deal with her issues.
Keep working on yours.
GIVE IT TIME. Nothing will get fixed overnight or even this month.
She knows now that if she hits me again she will have her a$$ setting in jail.
That's my point.
Puppy
Puppy,
I will have to demonstrate if it happens again.
Michelle,
No dating, got it. I am not ready to move on and am here for the long haul. Gnosis once said that jealousy can play a good role and that is why I was wondering about dating. My W does have severe abandonment issues and is terrified to be alone, so dating is not a good idea.
You don't have to date to get her attention. Doing things on your own, with friends, being unavailable to her at times, detaching, etc. will all DEMONSTRATE through ACTION that you are getting your own life and probably scare her that you are going to move on.
When the WAS gets scared that you are moving on, they often try to reel you back in, whether they have made up their mind to R or are just trying to keep their options open. They do that by being nice, offering sex, whatever works / has worked in the past to get back on your good side.
You need to be stronger. Give her the space and time to work on her issues. You have to let her do it herself. You have to let her grow up.
Thank you guys.
I have just talked to some friends about playing cards tonight after I get back from MC.
Now I have a commitment tonight and cannot hang out with W after MC like normal.
I will not let her know what tonight's plans are.
Hope to win a little money (penny, nickle, dime game)
I said I was slow but I am learning
Make sure you keep communication about the kids open. Make sure you arrange time to spend with them. But you are right, being a little mysterious and having other plans is great GALing. She doesn't need to know unless it's about coordinating childcare, and you can just say that you have plans with friends.
You need to keep consciously working on these things. Once you have created some new habits it will get easier. It takes repetition to make a new habit.
My S12 just setup his own FB page and I asked him to friend me. I will have the kids this weekend and plan on picking them up one night this week for a little fun out.
W can sit home and stew. She is not invited. Thinking of going to pizza place that the whole family loves.
Will not give W warning so she will have to stay home and hopefully think.
Kids and Dad having good time and her having none. As I am the primary breadwinner and will likely see an increase in income should we D; I would like her to wonder if this is the new norm.
Most of my friends who have kids old enough to want to be on FB made that a requirement to allowing them to have a page. Great way to keep an eye on their online lives.
Well you need about as much help as she does b/c you do not really hear what we are saying and you still continue to do what you have always done. You come on here and talk as if you've made such vast improvements in 48 hrs and how you aren't going to do all that stuff again and then contradict yourself.......which is still the same load of cr@p you have said & done before. That's why people can tell when you are not LISTENING and following what is advised. I don't know if you are that bullheaded or if you are that dense!
So, I'm out of here b/c I feel like I could take a swing at you myself! Maybe somebody else will help you but I don't have the patience.
Sandi,
I understand thanks for trying anyway.
We went to MC yesterday and we each took a half hour individually instead of together.
W wants to work on her anger and that is good because if she escalates I am afraid for S12.
I talked to C about my issues and I filled C in on W's abuse as a child.
C said that that explains a lot and we should have brought that up earlier.
C will try to work that out in W's IC.
C suggested that I back away and leave contact about kids only. So that is what I will do. She said still lots of hope but W has to have issues fixed first and I need to be ready for a long recovery.
I am.
I think I needed to hear this in person for it to finally sink in.
On a plus side W came out from her time and was in a much better mood and said that individual time was much better than together time and wants to buy the book "Boundaries" by Cloud. She wants to get the book today because C suggested it to her.
I think we are both on track to healing; unfortunately for now it looks like the healing will take place separately.
I cannot help her through this but I think C can by asking the right questions to get her to look at herself.
MC will be pushed off until W has had a few IC sessions and I can see that my own IC needs to be ramped up.
I will also reread this thread and see what else I can finally absorb.
I do not blame you for giving up on me, hell some days I want to as well. Your help so far has been valuable if it took me a long time to finally realize it.
C has validated most of the thing you all have said. The only difference is that she said since I was always the one in control I should continue to let W have house for now as part of my 180. Other than that C agrees with what has been said on this thread by you guys.
I have been operating in Panic and fear and without a truly open mind.
Time for something different.
W and I need to heal and as long as that happens it is good for the children. I hope that we can come back together but not before we are in a better place with ourselves.
So here is to the start of a different type of journey. Wish me luck. I cannot fix W and she cannot fix me, but with the right C to ask the right questions to make us look inward we may be able to fix ourselves individually. Only then can we fix the M.
I hope this does not take as long as it did for KAW his took over 3 years. I am trying to build strength to last as long as it takes.
Again, thank you very much for helping is bullheaded man.
D
Yes, they have to be separate journeys for now.
You can do this if you choose to.
Reread the advice you have given, make a summary of what your C told you and put it on the mirror where you will see it EVERY DAY (or your wallet, the idea is just to see it as a reminder).
Your motivation is admirable. You have a lot of work to do to change your own habits. The first step is becoming conscious of what needs to change, which you are doing. Things will not change overnight for either of you, you need to consciously change your behaviors, form new habits.
It's something that requires determination, focus, and patience.
Keep moving in the right direction.
No grand promises that you will never slip up again. That things will be different now.
Slow and steady progress.
Yes, they have to be separate journeys for now.
You can do this if you choose to.
I do choose to. I may need to lean on someone from time to time to borrow some of their stength.
Reread the advice you have given, make a summary of what your C told you and put it on the mirror where you will see it EVERY DAY (or your wallet, the idea is just to see it as a reminder).
Your motivation is admirable. You have a lot of work to do to change your own habits. The first step is becoming conscious of what needs to change, which you are doing. Things will not change overnight for either of you, you need to consciously change your behaviors, form new habits.
I have a lot of work to do on myself. I have been controlling and needy (especially with physical touch). I need to be stronger. This will take time, a lot of time.
It's something that requires determination, focus, and patience.
I have to work on focus and patience, determination I have in spades. Focus is where I am severely lacking.
Keep moving in the right direction.
No grand promises that you will never slip up again. That things will be different now.
I know that I will slip up. We all do. I just hope that my slip ups will be less and less frequent as we move forward.
Slow and steady progress.
[color:#000099][/color]
I am not going to just wait for her, but I do want to be available when she is ready.
what does this mean????
I am not going to just wait for her, but I do want to be available when she is ready.
what does this mean????
That's pretty much the
definition of "waiting," isn't it??
Puppy
You need to take care of you. You need to move forward on your own. You need to focus on taking care of you and your kids, continuing your C, working on your issues, making sure the kids are doing okay in school, getting them C if need be.
If she wants to catch up with you later, that's great.
Puppy and Steve,
I am looking at this more like Michelle's last post. I am not replacing W with another woman but I will not hermit in the house and wait either. I am going to GAL and when she is ready she is welcome to come join me.
I know this is only a short time yet but I have been going and visiting with old friends for the last few days and have maintained NC with W. I will have to see W tonight when I pick up boys for the weekend. Attitude I will shoot for is friendly business. No hugs or any other touch.
Just talked to another friend who had her husband leave her after 7 years, divorce her, and come back 3 years later. They are now on year 13. This gives me yet more hope.
Dropping the rope so the wild animal is not scared is the only option. She is now committed to her IC so I know she will be better eventually. Now I wish her luck and it is time for me to heal myself.
This NC except for kids will be hard and I will break it sometime, but I will recover as fast as possible. Between you guys and real life friends my support group has gotten stronger in just the last two weeks.
I will lean on this board for help and on friends for help and with borrowed strength we will make it.
I plan on maintaining Dim stance until W approaches and even then I need to show that I cannot take her up on all of her offers.
If she asks me to go to kids doctor with her, I say yes. If she asks me out or to come over for dinner, I only accept some and I tell her that I would love to but I have plans; maybe we can do it the next day (make some things on my schedule that way).
Guys, I am not giving up at all, but I want it shown that my life will not stop without her and she will have to catch up to me if she wants to join me.
Took a long time to get this place. Still have a ways to go.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the help and the numerous 2X4's. Keep them coming.
LHS,
Here is a clue for you, worth no more than what I charge for it:
Puppy and Steve,
I am looking at this more like Michelle's last post. I am not replacing W with another woman but I will not hermit in the house and wait either. I am going to GAL and when she is ready she is welcome to come join me I may or may not have moved on by then.
Puppy
Thank you much Puppy. I find myself caring less and less what she does and with whom. I do not ask, but I truly care less and less every week. I believe that your correction will be more true soon.
That is what I need to project to her. It is not if she will take me back anymore but if I will allow her another chance.
Up until now she knew the answer and that allowed her the certainty to cake eat.
Puppy, I will work on making her less certain of that answer and I will continue with the GAL.
Just found out that local indoor waterpark has $5.00 tickets from 3 pm until 9pm Monday through Thursday all February. The boys will like that as the whole family loved it when we went earlier this year.
I think I will ask a friend if them and their kids would like to go with me and my kids.
An idea for GAL with the kids.
She can enjoy her empty house.
Thanks guys
Well guys you all may remember her hitting me again last Monday and me sending the cop away. My wife filed for restraining order and filed charges for the restraint.
I have witnesses for the prior incidents and my S12 to witness this last one. I am not too worried about court coming up as this is all first offense stuff and I have witnesses of my own. She has no witnesses but does have marks on her arms where I held them.
Time to talk to a L Monday morning.
I will have a hard time getting her out of the house but I will take over paying the mortgage myself and she will get no more money than is required for he IC copay.
Any advise is helpful.
Those that refuse to play offense, are destined to play defense.
Time to lawyer up.
Puppy
Puppy,
Time has come. OM is now at my house for the first time since this started she invited him. This broke on rule we set together in the very beginning of this whole mess.
Talking to lawyer Monday.
I'm sorry she is disrespecting you so blatantly, LHS. Let us know what your attorney says.
Puppy
Heh. Par for the course. Sorry that is happening, but I can't say I'm surprised as many issues as she has and as bad as she has been acting out.
Too bad you sent the cop away instead of filing the report and pressing charges. You gave her just enough rope to try and hang you with.
Def talk to the L, make sure you CYA. When is the hearing?
The hearing is Friday but the L will not be able to be there so he is filing a continuance.
L says with the witnesses that she has hit me in the past that I have and the fact that we ML earlier that night and I was invited over this should be a slam dunk.
She is shooting for the moon with custody and maintenance payments.
L says no problem there. We will shoot down restraining order and we will file for D first to protect my butt. L knows that I really do not want D and he reminded me that I can file and then drag settlement out to 6 months or more if I want, but first to file with this type of woman will be the better protected.
Let me know your thoughts.
Went to court today. OM and W did not have L and I do. They both told judge that they think they need orders of protection. Judge then asked if they are ok with putting off the hearing until February 19th. OM and W said ok no problem. Judge raised eyebrows. He would have given them temporary restraining order if they had just asked, but they did not. Judge was also not very impressed that W was setting there in the courtroom arm in arm with OM.
Nice to see the judge looking at her like a liar. Judge was not happy and scribbled several notes in a short period of time.
This should go without saying, but from here on out for the foreseeable future, do not be alone with her. Or even with her and kids. No matter *what* she says or how friendly and contrite she might sound. You got your fair warning and then some; a wise man will heed that.
LMAO.
She said okay? Obviously not THAT worried. Which I'm sure the judge picked up on. *shakes head*. Bad move on her part. That and bringing OM to court. *rolls eyes*
Glad someone there had some class and good sense (and I do mean you).
Definitely don't be alone with her, even if you have to ask the sheriff for an escort to pick up the kids, CYA.