Yes it's your dear old "uncle rob" (the forum prick you love to hate) ;-) and I'm looking for advice....
It's been a while since I shared a bit about my own situation.
I started out on these forums spilling my guts and getting alot of good feedback and then I decided to pay it forward when my personal life started improving to the point where the outcome of my marriage/divorce didn't matter as much to me, I detached from that outcome and enjoyed my life and seriously it has been good, I would dare say that 2009 was one of the best years ever regardless of my current situation.
I kicked my wife out in January 2009 when I couldn't handle the lies & deception anymore, she lives with her parents now. We have 2 children that we share custody of, at first she had dictated when I would see them and then I stood up for myself, did the legal thing and secured my rights as a human being and a parent (note I never mentioned my rights as a man, I have the same rights as a woman, no more, no less).
Even kicking her out, she had been a constant in my life throughout alot of 2009. I found out about an EA/PA she had at the beginning of January 2008 (a year before) which was a couple months after I had rec'd the "bomb" (ILYBINILWY) and all the good bits that go with that WAW script (you all know it, no need to repeat it). We did alot of things together with the children and sometimes separate of them as well, I can say that I have had more sex with my wife during my separation than I have ever had during my entire marriage preceeding the separation - not just any sex, I'm talking the kind of unrestricted XXX butt wild monkey love that I used to only imagine in my dreams. We went on trips together but also have fought like cats & dogs and she continued to do things that would disrespect me and I would continue establish my boundaries which she would try to cross over and I would hold my ground until she backed off & apologized for whatever rude behavior she was displaying.
Great sex is great but after a while I wanted more, not needed but wanted. I got in great shape, took care of myself & my appearance, my personal value skyrocketed, I haven't felt so good about myself in such a long time and really became quite passionate about the topic of being a great person & a great man to all of my friends that were going through similar situations, I became the go to guy, the friends that needed help couldn't get enough of me, the advice I give them is counter-intuitive to anything they think they should be doing and it gave them better results than what they had been doing. I've almost considered setting up a website and writing a book on the stuff that I know that actually produces results.
However after living in limbo for 2 years, I knew that not every situation could be fixed, regardless of my new found education in this area, I wasn't so egotistical to believe I had the magic touch to cure everything. But I had enough personal strength to know that my life was worth it, to start over and make something great with someone new.
At the beginning of November I told my wife that I wouldn't be living in limbo anymore. She either committed 100% wholeheartedly to repairing our relationship and making a great marriage or I would be cutting off contact with her, no more sex, no more going out, no more coming over, I told her she HAD to have the kids 50% of the time (even though we have joint custody, I would usually have them @ 80% of the time due to her part-time job schedule, me living close to the school and being able to work from home, etc) and that this is how life will be going forward. I told her I would put the house up for sale in the spring, pay off our debts, split all of our assets 50/50, file for divorce, get an apartment for the kids & myself for a year or so, and then look for a new home in the same area to allow the kids to keep going to the same school.
Her decision was that she wasn't ready to make that decision, after 2 years of living in limbo, I was. You see it wasn't just about me anymore, I realized that this was a horrible thing that my kids were learning, they were seeing that this is what relationships are about, mom & dad living separately but still being together every now & then, with mom staying for weeks at a time and then being away for weeks at a time and I just wouldn't tolerate that anymore. I made the decision to end living in limbo, I DECIDED that I had enough of this. I DECIDED that I would move on and enjoy my life and whatever it would bring me. I started packing up whatever household items belong to her (she only took the clothes that I packed in her van) and placed them in boxes and request to her to pick them up. I have started cancelling credit cards that have both of our names on them that have $0 debt on them, any mail that comes to the home that is meant for her, I contact the sender and update them with her parents address, I've changed the look of the home to make it our place, in general just moving on.
I started dating in mid to late November, just to get used to it again and it wasn't difficult, I found that I was pretty unique amongst most of the guys on the dating website that I signed up for, for the first time in my life, I was popular with the ladies, I go a ton of first dates, alot of 2nd dates (and 3rd dates), no sex, it's not that I couldn't have sex, I just want to save that part of me for someone I wanted to have a relationship with. I was having quasi-daily sex with my wife for the past 1.5 years without any real emotional connection and I wanted that so I didn't mind holding out (I have also discovered that holding out sex from women that want to have sex with you pretty much makes them extremely "hungry", I'm in my late 30's and I have been dating women in ages ranging from 25 to 40).
FYI - Throughout all of this I've been an uber responsible parent, my personal life (ie. dating) isn't part of my children's reality, I keep it separate from them and I only date on those days that I don't have my kids and I never bring my dates home with me. I've kicked up my parenting ability another notch and the bar was already pretty high and the kids and I have been living a great life for the past year, they are young and now more than ever, they want the security of a strong family/parent(s) and it's my job to give that to them. I've discussed the separation & divorce with them, told my wife what we were discussing, offered her to come & discuss this with me because they want to talk to her about it all the time and she refuses to do that. My children ultimately want their family to be together but they are learning and I've been loving & nurturing with them, I always reassure them that we will be ok and we will. I am always happy with them, we have a ton of fun together and I'm showing them that I'm happy, because I want them to learn how to be happy as well.
Well enough of that hoopla, seriously I could go on & on with the story and it's details but I will fast forward to yesterday and today.
My wife came over yesterday to drop off the kids for the week, I have the kids on the 24th and she will have them on the 25th, this is something we both decided on together. I told the kids to say bye to their mom, to give her hugs & kisses before she goes but she decided to stay and asked me if she could talk to me for a bit. She wanted to talk to me in what was our bedroom, she closed the door behind her, I was just standing in front of her and she started crying. She misses me, she loves me, she wants to come back, she is sorry for everything she has done, she knows she caused the bulk of the problems, she wasn't "well" (referring to some depression she was dealing with and still is), asks me if I still love her. Honestly I just stood in front of her without too much emotion and asked her how could she do this before christmas, I told her this was all just feelings spurred on by christmas and that they will pass, she has always been like this in the past and then she flip flops back & forth to "I didn't mean it, I don't know why I said this, etc." I told her that I felt bad that she was sad and feeling like this but it wasn't being fair to me to put on this display before christmas, told her I was moving on and that I'm ok with how everything is going because life is good and it's going in the direction that I want it to go in. She got angry, raised her voice, said some hurtful things, left the home, slammed the storm door, etc.
She came over today, wash rinse repeat, same behavior as yesterday, same thing, the crying, tears, I love you, I'm sorry, I never meant to hurt you, etc. I mentioned to her why she refused to reconciling a couple of months ago when I told her that I was done waiting and she said because she was stupid and didn't know what she wanted, etc. I told her that plain & simple, the person that I'm with will know what they have when they're with me and won't take it for granted and that she's been taking me for granted forever and I couldn't tolerate her EA/PA when it happened along with multiple other repeat behaviors over the past 2 years - I wasn't her doormat and I wouldn't just let come back into my life so easily, I would be stupid if I allowed that and I'm not that person anymore. She cried some more, professed her love to me, asked to hug me and hold me and I did feel bad for her but I reminded her that I told her that this day would come and when it did it would be too late for her. I also told her that I was tired of her lying to me, constantly deceiving, hiding things, and I could never tolerate that in my life. I even told her to spill the beans on the guys that I know that she had affairs with and she still couldn't spill the beans, she had to hold on to those lies, telling me it wasn't as bad as I assumed it was (how bad does it have to be?!) and she told me that even if she told me the details, how would she know for certain I would take her back - my reply was pretty much "Well you know for certain that I'm not taking back someone who is dishonest & lying to my face, you have my 100% guarantee on that", the conversation continued for a bit like this and I told her that she was just repeating the same thing over & over again and lying to me was just her attempt to control me and my reactions to what she had done and I wouldn't put up with that anymore. She mentioned "marriage counselling" and I told her that it's only good when people are honest about what they've done and then I asked her to leave because I was busy and needed to get back to work. She told me she loved me several more time, asked to hug me again and left in tears, I did feel bad for her but I wasn't going to let real or crocodile tears give her the "Get out of Jail" card for free.
Without honesty there is nothing and my life is too good right now to go back into a relationship/marriage that is filled with lies. She has since called me more than a dozen times today apologizing for calling too many times and then repeating the same conversations and she has been texting me/emailing me constantly - I don't want to say it's scary but its certainly getting uncomfortable.
Feedback, comments, suggestions.
(saying that this post is too long to read is cool too, I can take it)
If you ask me if I love her, I'll tell you I do.
But I can't allow lies & dishonesty back in my life, after purging that filth from my life I can pretty much guarantee you and anyone else that I won't live with that anymore and I don't want to be anyone that doesn't value me or the relationship they have with me.
I've added my personal touch to a few of your threads, now I'm looking for some feedback on my own situation. If you have some 2x4's to throw my way please do so if you think I've acted in error. Seriously though, I've never been this confident in my life, I never backed down during any of this, even when the conversations took some tangents and she started getting rude & angry, I held my position without being an a$$hole and I could tell she knew that.
p.s. It's taken me over an hour to write this post in between the constant texting & phone calls she's been sending my way.
What do you want?
What will it take for you to believe she is being honest with you?
What else is in the way of reconciliation?
I think you made your position very clear and I commend you for it.
Where you go from here is entirely your decision.
rob,
why exactly you refuse to give it another chance? Forgive me if I am slow, but what exactly is what you are missing? Honesty? Because, the way I see it, the kind of honesty you need, will be a long process, and I dont think she is refusing that. I think she is -in her panick- trying some "damage control". It's not easy to "list" your affairs, admit you've been a liar and at the moment she doesnt sound very stable to be able to tell right from wrong or realise the long term benefit of coming clean.
How about making sure she understands your prerequisites while making sure she is clear what is acceptable and not.
I've been living in a similar situation with my H (apart the sex thing). I dont know if anything he would tell me right now would satisfy my need for "justice" and total honesty. And he HAS been answering questions (couldnt deny the A, I have hard proof in my hands).
K
Rob...
Ok, seriously, if you KNOW she had a/an/several EA/PA's, what do the details matter, after the fact? If you think she's in one NOW, then I guess I understand...
I'm thinking a bit of your own advice is needed. Like... OK, I'm willing to work on this, w/these conditions... Give her the list... letter of no contact, transparency, moving into this slowly, re-building the trust, etc... Tell her, if any one of these conditions makes you hesitate, then, no dice.
I understand you're still harboring the resentment from her lies and overall dishonesty, but if she's willing to move on, together, with your boundaries in place, then forgive her, and see where it gets you.
Just my two cents.
Glad to have an update from you. You are an amazing man.
I want the honesty.
I want her to tell me what she did and who she did "it" with.
In the end I have no pre-conceived notions,
I look at it as just another man's penis coming in contact with my wife's vagina and when it's placed in such a clinical context, it's not as bad as saying a PHYSICAL AFFAIR took place.
But yeah I want to know.
I want to know who, how long the affair(s) lasted, what happened to cause them to fail, in the end I'm not anyone's 2nd choice and if this is all because she can't find anyone else right now, I'm not filler in between the last affair and the next show.
And yes I hear you, maybe my curiousity won't be satisfied but I won't live with that type of unknown in my life. I want full disclosure, I want transparency, I want the cell phone unlocked, I want to read the texts and I want to do it on the spot so there is message erasing and cleaning her tracks before she comes clean.
Call me curious george but sometimes a monkey wants to know.
Rob... it's easy for me to give you the advice, but, I'm a "need to knower," too.
And yes I'm tired of the lies,
I want a decent dosage of honesty from her before considering anything with her, I want her to volunteer that stuff and I don't want to offer her the guarantee that I'll be there for her after she has come clean about all of it. I don't want to offer her any security at the moment and that's just me being honest, not resentful or angry, because I'm not angry anymore.
I just want to know, I don't think it's wrong either.
I want the honesty.
I want her to tell me what she did and who she did "it" with.
In the end I have no pre-conceived notions,
I look at it as just another man's penis coming in contact with my wife's vagina and when it's placed in such a clinical context, it's not as bad as saying a PHYSICAL AFFAIR took place.
But yeah I want to know.
I want to know who, how long the affair(s) lasted, what happened to cause them to fail, in the end I'm not anyone's 2nd choice and if this is all because she can't find anyone else right now, I'm not filler in between the last affair and the next show.
And yes I hear you, maybe my curiousity won't be satisfied but I won't live with that type of unknown in my life. I want full disclosure, I want transparency, I want the cell phone unlocked, I want to read the texts and I want to do it on the spot so there is message erasing and cleaning her tracks before she comes clean.
Call me curious george but sometimes a monkey wants to know.
Have you asked for these requests? Response?
Does she know it's non-negotiable?
What's her reluctance?
part of wanting to know is the large circle of friends we have,
I don't want to be the clueless dummy that never found that one of his guy friends had an affair with his wife - so that's part of it.
I am the same way. I want to know everything. I feel I have a puzzle and I am missing pieces. Not in the center but STILL I WANT IT complete damn it!!
BUT, in your case, right now, she is NOT refusing to tell you all you need to know. She is trying to avoid it, if possible, see how far she can go without admitting all her wrong doings. She is probably scared and ashamed and and and... Make it clear to her, sit back and let her decide what she wants to do.
Hi Uncle Rob,
Love your advice. You are not a prick. You are realistic and take a good hard line about boundaries.
It seems that you got the bomb (Oct 2007) and discovery of PA (Dec 2007) around the same time as myself. I filed Jan 2008 because of her exposing the kids to her PA. My divorce was final on Dec 2008 (a year ago). She flip flopped during the year long divorce process and asked for another chance a week before it was final.
Like yourself, I did not see any effort on her part to take accountability, explain herself, or make the changes necessary to have a possible reconciliation. I felt she was just asking for a second chance mainly to save face. I let the divorce finalize and am a happy camper to this day. My XW got married to one of the OM this last week. It is strange in that she is 38 and he is 69.
I may not have the success you have on the dating front since I am a bit introverted of a guy. I am not out to score, but am looking for a strong long term relationship with intimacy. I am cautious now about jumping into intimacy too quick as that is not a good way to start a long term relationship.
I think your wife is having a major panic attack. She probably feels like she is drowning because of her stupid actions over the last 2-3 years. You know that you cant save her by being the fallback guy. Could she change? Possibly. Has her prior history shown ability to become an open book? No. She still wont come clean about the affairs. There is no way MC is possible until she reaches a point of willingness to be transparent in everything. She would need personal counseling first.
And I agree that you cant continue in limbo and letting your children get the idea from their mother that it is ok to be a cake eater. Let me ask you, if you had no children, would you still be legally married to your wife?
What are the ages and gender of your kids?
part of wanting to know is the large circle of friends we have,
I don't want to be the clueless dummy that never found that one of his guy friends had an affair with his wife - so that's part of it.
My feelings exactly. H still doenst understand why that is important. I dont want to be the one people are talking behind her back. I want to be able to look them in the eye and make it clear, there is NOTHING about H they know and I dont..
I want the honesty.
I want her to tell me what she did and who she did "it" with.
In the end I have no pre-conceived notions,
I look at it as just another man's penis coming in contact with my wife's vagina and when it's placed in such a clinical context, it's not as bad as saying a PHYSICAL AFFAIR took place.
But yeah I want to know.
I want to know who, how long the affair(s) lasted, what happened to cause them to fail, in the end I'm not anyone's 2nd choice and if this is all because she can't find anyone else right now, I'm not filler in between the last affair and the next show.
And yes I hear you, maybe my curiousity won't be satisfied but I won't live with that type of unknown in my life. I want full disclosure, I want transparency, I want the cell phone unlocked, I want to read the texts and I want to do it on the spot so there is message erasing and cleaning her tracks before she comes clean.
Call me curious george but sometimes a monkey wants to know.
Have you asked for these requests? Response?
Does she know it's non-negotiable?
What's her reluctance?
Her reluctance... she is scared, the game is over, she knows I'm for real and I'm not budging on this issue. And looking from her point of view, if she feels guilty for what she's done (and she does, if it were any clearer, it would be written on her forehead) and scared to admit the details of what she has done - aren't we all afraid to admit the bad things we've done if we've done them to someone who we love?
I've told her it's non-negotiable.
Yes I've asked, the responses I get are varied and include "I can't tell you and it's not as bad as you think...." and obviously that isn't good enough for me, you or anyone else who would ever have to go through this.
Plus I've had my suspicions about a possible affair that happened several years ago before the bomb and she's tight lipped about that as well. As my eyes start to open about all of this her mouth starts to lock down pretty tight!
part of wanting to know is the large circle of friends we have,
I don't want to be the clueless dummy that never found that one of his guy friends had an affair with his wife - so that's part of it.
My feelings exactly. H still doenst understand why that is important. I dont want to be the one people are talking behind her back. I want to be able to look them in the eye and make it clear, there is NOTHING about H they know and I dont..
Kalni, you know where I'm coming from!
Rob, I don't think you commented on my thread but I have been solidly behind you on many of your posts to others.
I disagree with mindfull re: knowing about the affairs. The details matter because she will not talk about them. It's just more deceit, especially if you know about them through your own intel and she continues to deny. I know that I firmly believe the lying hurts more than the cheating. If she won't come clean now how would you ever start to trust or believe her again?
My two cents would echo the others, although I think I see where you're coming from. What exactly would you want to see from her before considering reconciliation? Have you given her this list?
If she balks at any of the requirements then she's made the choice.
I told you, we are in a very similar phase (apart the SEX damn it!). And I am telling you, after all they've done and all the lies they said, it would be a fairy tale ending if they came and spilled their guts out. Human nature is against it. H did, some at least, only when he couldnt deny anything anymore. He told me he couldnt admitt he had been lying for so long, he felt it would hurt me (!!!) and not solve anything... He is getting it now but I tell you, he is having a VERY hard time doing it and sometimes I feel like I am pulling teeth...
Because, the way I see it, the kind of honesty you need, will be a long process, and I dont think she is refusing that. I think she is -in her panick- trying some "damage control". It's not easy to "list" your affairs, admit you've been a liar and at the moment she doesnt sound very stable to be able to tell right from wrong or realise the long term benefit of coming clean.
No, it won't be easy. It is, nonetheless, essential. Why should he believe she regrets what she's done when she can't even be open about what she's done? I understand that it's a process, but it's been what? two years? How long does it take before she will be prepared to be open about her past actions? "Damage control" is the problem. Unless she abandons all forms of attempted control and basically throws herself on his mercy, I don't call that remorse.
(this is assuming, rob, that you do have really reliable intel about her actions so you are *sure* she's not being forthcoming....)
There is no way to rebuild a decent relationship without -- I don't want to use the word "brutal", but yeah, that -- honesty and detailed self-revelation of faults from both parties. IMHO. If she's not there yet, then I wouldn't advocate reconciling. Otherwise, you run a good risk of finding yourself right back here in a couple of years. Again, IMHO.
Of course, no need or reason to be cold or compassionless towards her in the day-to-day.
Rob, I don't think you commented on my thread but I have been solidly behind you on many of your posts to others.
I disagree with mindfull re: knowing about the affairs. The details matter because she will not talk about them. It's just more deceit, especially if you know about them through your own intel and she continues to deny. I know that I firmly believe the lying hurts more than the cheating. If she won't come clean now how would you ever start to trust or believe her again?
My two cents would echo the others, although I think I see where you're coming from. What exactly would you want to see from her before considering reconciliation? Have you given her this list?
If she balks at any of the requirements then she's made the choice.
I agree Pearl, that's exactly what I'm talking about, she acknowledges that PA's occurred, she's just not giving me any details because she doesn't want to make me angry - seriously I'm not angry, in fact during these past 2 discussions I was so cool I was an ice cube, no worries!
Word of caution being a step ahead of you having agreed to try and turn this around: I am now in a state of mind where no matter what I know (hacked her and his email accounts), I feel there is more and more and more... I am forcing myself to follow the advice of a book (dont know which one anymore-I can send you all the "after the affair" online books available), that wisely suggested, "ask what you need that is important, stick to basics in the beginning and then insist on details that are necessary for you to move on". It's like peeling an onion. And it stinks!!!
Because, the way I see it, the kind of honesty you need, will be a long process, and I dont think she is refusing that. I think she is -in her panick- trying some "damage control". It's not easy to "list" your affairs, admit you've been a liar and at the moment she doesnt sound very stable to be able to tell right from wrong or realise the long term benefit of coming clean.
No, it won't be easy. It is, nonetheless, essential. Why should he believe she regrets what she's done when she can't even be open about what she's done? I understand that it's a process, but it's been what? two years? How long does it take before she will be prepared to be open about her past actions? "Damage control" is the problem. Unless she abandons all forms of attempted control and basically throws herself on his mercy, I don't call that remorse.
(this is assuming, rob, that you do have really reliable intel about her actions so you are *sure* she's not being forthcoming....)
There is no way to rebuild a decent relationship without -- I don't want to use the word "brutal", but yeah, that -- honesty and detailed self-revelation of faults from both parties. IMHO. If she's not there yet, then I wouldn't advocate reconciling. Otherwise, you run a good risk of finding yourself right back here in a couple of years. Again, IMHO.
Of course, no need or reason to be cold or compassionless towards her in the day-to-day.
Yup and I have no issues with that, I'm sure it would be a long process but the process does have to start. The PA's were real, she has admitted that "things" happened, but I'm a details kinda guy, "things" just won't cut it.
Word of caution being a step ahead of you having agreed to try and turn this around: I am now in a state of mind where no matter what I know (hacked her and his email accounts), I feel there is more and more and more... I am forcing myself to follow the advice of a book (dont know which one anymore-I can send you all the "after the affair" online books available), that wisely suggested, "ask what you need that is important, stick to basics in the beginning and then insist on details that are necessary for you to move on". It's like peeling an onion. And it stinks!!!
Oh I know it stinks, but I'm at a point where pulling apart that onion isn't making me tear up anymore.
To paraphrase Tom Cruise....
"I WANT THE TRUTH!"
- and just in case there is any debate over the issue, I can handle the truth.
the funny thing is that I told myself last week that it would be funny if my wife popped up just as I'm moving on and dating again.
And yes if she asks if I am dating, I would tell her that I am, I have nothing to hide.
I agree. Stick your ground. This is your NUT.
Just let her know that you won't rub her face in it. You just want the truth PERIOD. You DESERVE that RESPECT.
Yes PMA it is about respect,
I won't live with secrets or lies or deception anymore,
and I'm at the point in my life that I won't live without respect & honesty, those things are just too important to me, I won't play the clueless fool anymore and if she can't own up to what she has done and the sordid details attached to those events, it isn't my loss - it's hers.
Detachment is the way to go, no contact didn't hurt either, these past 2 months I've had very little contact & communication with her, I let her stand on her own two feet without any assistance from me and I'm sure the difference was felt and it's possible the christmas season itself may have assisted with this, seriously I never been happier in my life and whichever way this goes, I will be better than just OK.
My cellphone is taking a beating from all of the texts she is sending, it's never vibrated so much before, I'm almost tempted to shove it inside my pants and make use of this energy she's sending my way (just kidding.... maybe).
Just create a place of safety and non-judgement for her to come clean. No pressure. If she cant do it then you have your answer.
What happens when you hug her? I mean really hug her. Dont let her go for at least 5 minutes. Let it ALL come out.
Hold the line.
PMA
Well Rob,
I commend you on how you handled the sitch, no 2x4's. You have went though a huge period of personal growth, and W is way behind.
What you are doing is working, so keep doing it.
State and hold your boundaries.
"W, When you do not tell me who you were with and what you did when I ask, I feel I can not trust you, I need a partner that is open and honest. If you are unable to be open and honest with me, I see no reason to stay married."
State and hold your boundaries.
- without them I'm nothing, it's whats gotten me where I am right now, it took me a few years but I got where I need to be.
And i'm not so foolish to believe that this isn't scary for her to let go of the secrets and lies and come cleans with the ugly details but I won't make it easy on her by telling her that she can come back without those things, part of this is her investing in me, and that investing comes in many forms, one of which is honesty, life is too short to live without the respect attributed to honesty.
Would your decision to allow her "back" depend on the details you may hear? Just wondering...
That's a good question.
My decision to allow her "back" because interestingly enough, that is something she brought up, she wants to move back home as well, will be based on alot of things.
Kalni, I'm going to be honest, I don't know what I'm going to do, or how I'm going to react. I do know that without the honesty and full disclosure, I can't make any decision and I have the right to make a decision knowing all the facts.
I would be lying if I said I'll forgive her after hearing everything, I know I'll be mature about it, it's been a 2+ year process, I've done some considerable healing, I'm not going to revert to the scared insecure person I was many years ago.
I want honesty and I'll get it in my life, that's a pre-requisite before making any decisions about her & me but without honesty I will let you know that my decision would be a big fact "NO!"
Robx..
You've given me some 2x4's... my contribution..
There are way more experienced folks here to give you relationship advice than I...that being said..
In regards to you verifying the actual truth of the matter it's a matter of giving test/baseline questions. In my line of work, When I'm conducting an interview and I believe the subject is guilty of doing something, At first, I ask only questions that I have the absolute definite answers to. This establishes/guages the truthfullness of the individual... Then if decide to go in depth, and I detect deceit, I can sprinkle a few "I know the answer" questions to guage again.... it's not 100% science and takes practice, but it is one technique....
of course body language is critical as well, a simple search on Amazon will get you going.
Wow Robx, I am just catching up on this thread. What a change. I value your insights to others on this board.
I don't have much to offer you, as you are years ahead of me, but I believe your doing the right thing here, and for the right reasons.
OK fair enough. The reason I am asking is that I first had to face the details by "accident" (far worse than the worst scenario I thought possible) and then I had to decide -again- what to do.
Bottom line was that since I sensed/knew there was an OW for quite some time, what came out hurt me deeply, (possibly severed our chances to make it in the long run mostly because of the pain inflicted) but didnt change my original stance that an A was not a dealbreaker for me (I had to be reminded of that of course by my dear DB friends following my sitch the last 2 years).
You see, if what you hear isnt anything really gross, the fact remains that you DBed your @ss off knowing there were other men/man (if I am correct). If it becomes a dealbreaker now, it would throw your "fight" out of the window. Of course it's you right to have changed your mind in the meantime.
But it seems as now the dealbreaker point is honesty and accepting responsibility from her as well as seeing signs "she can do the hard work". (Sorry if I am confusing, take a moment and try to decipher my Greeklish)
I think you are holding your nuts fine
and are clear about what you need. Let's see if she means what she says.
K
But it seems as now the dealbreaker point is honesty and accepting responsibility from her as well as seeing signs "she can do the hard work". (Sorry if I am confusing, take a moment and try to decipher my Greeklish)
I understand you Kalni, if you're using google translate to type all of this, the translation is wicked accurate LOL!
The dealbreaker has always been honest & accepting responsibility for her actions and I guess she finally realized that I'm not bluffing.
I don't think I could hear anything that would be "gross" as far as what she did, I don't think so anyways, seriously even if she said she was "triple teamed european style", I don't think that would impact my decision, the thing is I can't be with someone who is dishonest, I did that for far too long and I'm not doing that anymore, it's not fun anymore (not that it ever was).
Hi Rob,
Although I've never posted to you before, I have used your postings as guidance in my own 2 1/2 year voyage.
In fact, my H came over yesterday to talk to me after a couple of weeks of turning him down & I said many of the same things you said to your W yesterday.
After all that trying to get me to hear him out on something that could "save our children, me, & him years of heartache," he offered me nothing that he hadn't before, so I sent him on his way.
I think it was you who said they have to hit bottom fully, & really experience a "crisis point" before there's a wake up call. It looks like that's where she is now.
Although I understand the need & value to finding out the details of her A('s), is there any chance you could be satified with general outlines, i.e., names, places, length of time, etc. without going into all the sordid details?
There's that old adage about staying away from the making of sausage, especially when the sausage making has been extra ugly.
I do agree that she needs to come cleaner than she has, & come thru with full transparency & honesty.
Considering she's so withholding with information right now, my guess is that there probably was something inappropriate with someone in your circle of friends. And yes, I would also want to know the participants.
BTW, thanks for all the paying forward you do, it's been an incredible help for many.
Sunny
The dealbreaker has always been honest & accepting responsibility for her actions and I guess she finally realized that I'm not bluffing.
I don't think I could hear anything that would be "gross" as far as what she did, I don't think so anyways, seriously even if she said she was "triple teamed european style", I don't think that would impact my decision, the thing is I can't be with someone who is dishonest, I did that for far too long and I'm not doing that anymore, it's not fun anymore (not that it ever was).
I would definitely state this to her, absolutely this clearly, when you're pretty sure she'll absorb it (or reiterate it, if you already have) before the final chop.
Considering she's so withholding with information right now, my guess is that there probably was something inappropriate with someone in your circle of friends.
That's what I read too. Look towards someone very close.
EDIT: Someone that she thinks that if you knew would be a deal breaker. That and her conscience bothering her that you would consider her a tramp.
I do agree that she needs to come cleaner than she has, & come thru with full transparency & honesty.
Considering she's so withholding with information right now, my guess is that there probably was something inappropriate with someone in your circle of friends. And yes, I would also want to know the participants.
BTW, thanks for all the paying forward you do, it's been an incredible help for many.
I'm thinking that too, I think it may have been with someone in our circle of friends.
As for details, if anyone is wondering, I'm not talking about details as in positions, toys used, etc. LOL! Seriously, I don't need that type of detail and that wouldn't be something I would want to hear.
Rob
I have never been involved in an A while married so this is pure mind reading and conjecture but perhaps the WAS does not want to give details and info becaiuse they fear that it would be held over their head in the future like the sword of Damocles. It is probably a frightening feeling , like they may be forever indebted if the other spouse has to FORGIVE something on such a large scale and the may fear that they could never make a wrong move again.
I understand the need for truth and honesty, though. To me as horrendous and painful as an A is, the lying and covering up is more difficult to forgive. I could forgive an A if my H is honest, open , contrite and accountable. It is hard to repair with deceit still in the picture.
However,perhaps you W really fears that her scale of As is unforgivable and that you will hold that against her despite saying that you won't. At the end of the day love is about vulnerability and what could be a greater example of that than two people honestly and openly repairing a M in these circumstances? It takes vulnerability on both parts not just the WAS in confessing to wrongdoing.
If my H and I were to work things out I just want to know enough to hold my head up high around people who knew about the A and may have seen him with OW. I don't ever want anyone feeling that they have one up on me where my H's actions and whereabouts are concerned.I understand not wanting too many details. To know everything would be torture for me because my mind is like a vault and it is hard to rid it of information once it is in there.
I can relate to the place you are in right now.
In my situation I would not allow my H to play the role of hero AND martyr with his BS, justifications and excuses as there was nothing heroic about the way he handled things.
For months and months after I confronted him (I kept the info I had to myself for FIVE months) it was always "well, I didn't want to hurt you more and I am a good guy and everybody think so".
To this day (and we have now been legally separated for one month and living apart for almost two years with very little contact) he still believes he can keep his long term affair around, have me when it suits him and if things start to seem okay with us he might leave his GF. LOL!
For your W to say "it's not as bad as you think" is crap. If it's not that bad then start talking and provide me with the info I need to have. That is why they usually do not, they know they will be doing so w/o any safety net and once it is all out there they have very little power and take the risk of losing you for good and also ticking of the affair partner for "coming clean" leaving the WAS with nothing.
The funny (not ha ha funny) aspect of many WAS that do have an affair and get caught is the idea they have concocted that THEY are the ones taking the gamble and not the LBS. I really feel until that mindset changes on the part of the WAS than nothing will really change.
People that really want to heal and change a R, especially a marriage will go to any length and take any risk necessary. And many will disagree but I see very few WAS that are able to do that when an affair has happened. Especially when the separation reaches the 1 or 2 year mark.
Just one month ago my H told me the R with his GF was not all roses and they fight and breakup daily but he wants to try and stick it out and not run like he always does. So, IOW, he would rather stay in an unhealthy R than be alone since I told him that was not acceptable to me, I was not his fallback option and it spoke volumes he would rather nurture a R with some sort of lunatic than his W of a decade. And when I say lunatic... my H works with this woman and on the average she calls him 30 to 40 times a day (I can see his cell records) and calls him at all hours of the night. She demanded my H never speak to me again despite the fact we had to have minimal exchanges to finalize our agreement. Too much drama for me.
I know way more than I ever thought I would about my H and his affair/GF and honestly, for me, it has been helpful. If that is what my H is attracted to then he is far less of a quality human being than I thought.
The evolution of a WAS is not all that impressive IMO. Now that I am in a much better place and living my own life and healing and moving forward I see how silly my H still acts. His actions are no different than right after the bomb and now I simply find it disturbing. Two years have passed and he is very stuck. Me, I am moving along quite nicely!
I almost feel like the man in the R with my H and I don't like that. He is too weak and I desire a strong man but I had to be strong for me.
My bottom line was simple - I will not allow you to have OW and me to test drive both out and see what you choose. As I said it's been a month since we have been separated and I only deal with my H when I have to execute portions of our Agreement. Now the e-mails are flooding in that he misses me and he guesses he better get used to me treating him this way. LOL! I treat him with civility as he is a human being. He simply is not a human being that will have the loyalty and dedication from me that he is so used to.
Eventually all LBS get to the point where enough is enough and it's time for the WAS to adhere to some of their terms without acting like the martyr and hero.
I think the way your W is behaving is normal. In fact, it is much how my H's GF behaves - the crying and drama just to keep you around and avoid hurting yet ANOTHER person. Lame.
I participated in this BS for 2 years and now I am done. I made my needs and boundaries very well known and they fell on deaf ears. There are too many men out there that are NOT deaf and weak and I plan to find me one!
Talk is cheap. Actions are what I needed and it sounds like you need action as well from your W.
I could write novels about what my H did - it was far more than an affair but what is the point? All those other things could have been repaired AND created a segway to begin working on the "biggie" (his affair) but that was too much work for him. And I am talking the crap he pulled post bomb. At the end of the day he simply is unable to take a good hard look at himself.
Thankfully I have taken a good hard look at myself and once you do that, what you see the WAS changes drastically.
The last line I typed should read "what you see the WAS as changes drastically". IOW, maybe they were not all that you thought they were.
My H told me just a month ago he would do whatever he had to do to heal our R, he knew all that work would fall on him and it would be a long road and one day he yearned to earn my trust and respect back. Never heard from him again after that. Talk is cheap.
But I can't allow lies & dishonesty back in my life, after purging that filth from my life I can pretty much guarantee you and anyone else that I won't live with that anymore and I don't want to be anyone that doesn't value me or the relationship they have with me.
I "WON'T" allow lies and dishonesty back in my life.
There is your answer.
She REPRESENTS the lies and dishonesty. Your answer is to let her go through the crisis. Right now you CAN'T take her back. MUST not take her back. That means no casual or sex with benefits or whatever else you have been having with her. NONE, zilch. Let her FEEL and see that you are SERIOUS (or are you?)
By your own words you say she has lied for a long long time. There is your evidence of lies and dishonsetly being part of her. You can't get her true true respect until you FINALLY back up what you keep saying you mean UNLESS you follow through with those words with some action.
I am glad to finally see you take some action. She is finally getting a clue that you may just be serious. I believe you need to put her through a crisis of at least 6 months or more and gauge her reactions and actions from a distance.
Now for the part about needing to know what happened and details of the past... You are going about it the wrong way..
You PRESSURED her. Pressure doesn't work. Don't do that. You won't get the truth from her until she feels you are totally done and let her know that it is too LATE for the truth and you could care less anymore. However you don't think about taking her back unless she does come clean. She will when you take off the pressure by keeping on the path you are on. It will be the CRISIS that will get her to tell you the truth. Not pressure, but the crisis.
I even told her to spill the beans on the guys that I know that she had affairs with and she still couldn't spill the beans, she had to hold on to those lies, telling me it wasn't as bad as I assumed it was (how bad does it have to be?!) and she told me that even if she told me the details, how would she know for certain I would take her back - my reply was pretty much "Well you know for certain that I'm not taking back someone who is dishonest & lying to my face, you have my 100% guarantee on that", the conversation continued for a bit like this and I told her that she was just repeating the same thing over & over again and lying to me was just her attempt to control me and my reactions to what she had done and I wouldn't put up with that anymore.
This was all pressure. That doesn't work. You are trying to make a liar be an honest person. You first have to completely reject the liar and then put her in a crisis to WANT to be an honest person because she see that YOU are only "attracted" to honest women. She has to be in the kind of crisis that people are in on this site. The kind of crisis where she is asking others HOW to win you back and they tell her to work on herself and learn to be honest. She will then do it all on her own...
Face the reality Rob. She is a liar. Move away from liars. Stop trying to make a liar an honest person. The only way you can get them to change is for them to go through a major crisis that puts them in such panic that they do WHATEVER it takes. You have never gotten her to that point. Now is you opportunity. Don't waste it.
And do NOT forget about dating. It is a must. Kitty cats compete...
I agree with gucci...she is at the beginning of the crisis. Can't take her back too soon.
BTW...gucci I have just been reading some of your posts after looking at your advice to britt. If you have a chance could you look over my stitch. I am just moving out tomorrow and hope to create a crisis for my husband. your advice is needed on what moves and mindset i should be in.
The "Loafer" parked one in the right field bleachers!
Right now, it is as if she has just gotten the bomb most of us have gotten in the past. You are more like the WAS and she the LBS. She is in the begging/pleading mode and for her to have any hope with you, she is going to need to reach out on her own and learn how to DB.
If she ever comes clean, will you always wonder if there's something more she's not telling you because she has lied so many times?
I haven't had any affairs, emotional or physical, but because I lied to my H about my past, he thinks I am still lying.
I can't see any changes that your W has made. What good would it do to allow her to come home to you if nothing has changed? The only change I see in the stitch now and when you first came on board.....is your personal changes. That is good, but "she" hasn't done anything that I can see.
I think she still tries to control you by using sex. You may have seen it as fun, exciting, or whatever........but she was using it as a control hold on you. She knows that that has been your weak area....her body.
When you approached her about coming out of limbo and trying to have a R together (instead of just wild monkey sex), she didn't seem to have a problem turning you down. But as soon as you let her know you would be moving on......then that was her clue to play her game--but when she didn't get her way...she threw her usual fit (as I recall). Isn't that what she has always done when she didn't get her way?
So now she sees you as unavailable and she is getting overly obsessed with pursuing you. You know what you would tell another poster here on the board. You have good advice, Rob, so turn it around and use it on yourself.
I think she has had sex with somebody close to you. I think it would be a turn-on (to her) to accomplish that. It's not only a power thing for her, but it was somebody that should have been hands-off to her. Thus.....added excitement and challenge. (Kind of like you are to her, at the moment.)
She sees the changes you've made in yourself and she knows that if she tells you everything....it will be a dealbreaker for you.
You have this thing called self-respect.....and she knows that, now. So....unless you see that she is making changes in herself, why would you think she would even stop at having A's with OM if the two of you got back together? I think it is needs to go futher than her giving you details.
"You want the "truth"?"
"You really want the "truth"?"
Rob, honestly, man you do not want the details. It is not as simple as you say "pre-conceived notions."
It a MF'ing vision that will never go away once you really know.
You might think it does then one day a year or two or five or seven years down the road you are sitting at the kitchen table having a beer then BAM like a god''damn horror film the whole scene changes and BZZZZZZZZ its in your mind and thats all you see suddenly and you are pissed off for good.
It comes back from time to time before that, here and there. Anything you hear about it from her, things they did, places, stupid things like they drank budwiser, well $hit, hate the king of beers, you are drinking PBR from now on. He had an SUV. You'll never want to get in one again. and honestly, you might never put your mouth down there again.
and find out who he is 2 years later? you wont beat the daylights out of the guy next time you see him? honestly Rob, think about it.
Little F'ing details of this and that? they get in the crevices of your mind and mess you up down the road. Ask people who have been there. they are not the ones whose marriages survived infidelity.
When I read these young guys whose wife is having an affair or worse on her second or third and he professing his unconditional love to her in his posts, I some times sit back and think he hasnt seen it yet. He doesnt get the visions. There isnt really anyway to warn him. He wont listen; he isnt listening to anything anybody who isnt trying to comfort him is saying anyway.
So, I'm just giving you something to think about. A little counter-intuititive version of what you think it might be like for you.
strength, confidence, self respect have nothing to do with it; its some guy porking your wife and hearing the details from her mouth and then living with her and that knowledge afterwards. its hard to supress.
maybe she wont tell you because she knows you will walk away. should walk away after hearing.
Rob. Since you asked for advice, comments, I will give you mine.
Let her go, move on, go forward with the divorce. Not for her; to force changes in her. But for you.
You see yourself. You are not the same person you were 2-3 years ago. You are more confident, self-respecting, thoughtful. But you never actually moved on with your life. pseudo-moved-on. Your wife, your marriage, your issues were always still there. They have guided you along this path you have taken. (I have read your posts; you have given us a very interesting autobiography of a man who has learned a lesson from being walked upon.) But you have yet to experience life without them.
Do you really know yourself?
You still think about your wife; you still question in your mind about her; you still wonder if I do this or that what will she do. Will she become the woman I want her to be? (or something similiar) Magic eight ball says, none of them will ever be forever. They all fart, and have periods, talk on the phone, leave their bras laying around, and get sick of us from time to time all the same. Time to stop considering your wife completely. It is an important step forward in your growth as a person.
pseudo-moved-on. You have yet to experience love after your wife. Finding that special person that completely turns your world upside down with emotions. Infatuation. It is a powerful change of thinking. Infatuation that turns into love. You talk about that so often in your posts, but do you really know what it feels like. What it does to Robx?
Experience that Rob, before getting back together with your wife. You will view your entire world differently after that. That I can promise you. The rest is just speculation.
Robx,
If you love her, give her another chance. That is, if she is willing to work on the relationship and move forward and improve it. I know how you feel.... You want to know everything. I think she is ashamed and humiliated to tell you about it. I suppose the why would be sufficient.
Rob. Since you asked for advice, comments, I will give you mine.
Let her go, move on, go forward with the divorce. Not for her; to force changes in her. But for you.
You see yourself. You are not the same person you were 2-3 years ago. You are more confident, self-respecting, thoughtful. But you never actually moved on with your life. pseudo-moved-on. Your wife, your marriage, your issues were always still there. They have guided you along this path you have taken. (I have read your posts; you have given us a very interesting autobiography of a man who has learned a lesson from being walked upon.) But you have yet to experience life without them.
Do you really know yourself?
You still think about your wife; you still question in your mind about her; you still wonder if I do this or that what will she do. Will she become the woman I want her to be? (or something similiar) Magic eight ball says, none of them will ever be forever. They all fart, and have periods, talk on the phone, leave their bras laying around, and get sick of us from time to time all the same. Time to stop considering your wife completely. It is an important step forward in your growth as a person.
pseudo-moved-on. You have yet to experience love after your wife. Finding that special person that completely turns your world upside down with emotions. Infatuation. It is a powerful change of thinking. Infatuation that turns into love. You talk about that so often in your posts, but do you really know what it feels like. What it does to Robx?
Experience that Rob, before getting back together with your wife. You will view your entire world differently after that. That I can promise you. The rest is just speculation.
Ditto.
Rob. Since you asked for advice, comments, I will give you mine.
Let her go, move on, go forward with the divorce. Not for her; to force changes in her. But for you.
You see yourself. You are not the same person you were 2-3 years ago. You are more confident, self-respecting, thoughtful. But you never actually moved on with your life. pseudo-moved-on. Your wife, your marriage, your issues were always still there. They have guided you along this path you have taken. (I have read your posts; you have given us a very interesting autobiography of a man who has learned a lesson from being walked upon.) But you have yet to experience life without them.
Do you really know yourself?
You still think about your wife; you still question in your mind about her; you still wonder if I do this or that what will she do. Will she become the woman I want her to be? (or something similiar) Magic eight ball says, none of them will ever be forever. They all fart, and have periods, talk on the phone, leave their bras laying around, and get sick of us from time to time all the same. Time to stop considering your wife completely. It is an important step forward in your growth as a person.
pseudo-moved-on. You have yet to experience love after your wife. Finding that special person that completely turns your world upside down with emotions. Infatuation. It is a powerful change of thinking. Infatuation that turns into love. You talk about that so often in your posts, but do you really know what it feels like. What it does to Robx?
Experience that Rob, before getting back together with your wife. You will view your entire world differently after that. That I can promise you. The rest is just speculation.
Ditto.
Ditto.
Tritto.
Actually, Ditto minus the part about moving forward with the divorce. You and you alone know what you want; don't be ashamed to ask for what you want. If your W complies, you win. If she is doesn't, you move on and you win.
Seems to me the only way you lose is by taking her back without getting what you really want (Honesty and an end to the lies).
Maybe it is a woman thing but I dont understand :"move on before you go back with your wife". Huh?
SO, rob will not know himself unless he meets someone special (who wont be special because THEY are all the same anyway) other than his wife? Dont get it. Maybe because I am lacking testosterone...
For the record, I like gucci's approach. You cant force anyone to be honest, I tried that all last year. (I like gucci). Let her go thru the crisis. (Maybe I should have let H go thru it a while longer, more than 2-2,5 months, but our sitch was a bit different).
K
PS rob, what the h$ll is a "european triple whatever". I live in Europe, where can I get it? LOLOL!!!
Jesus...
There is enough info in this few pages of posts to digest from so many of you this should become a sticky thread at some point.
Robx, I agree completely with Gucci, he nailed it. Minus 1 aspect that I am not convinced of yet..
And do NOT forget about dating. It is a must. Kitty cats compete
I understand completely why you would do this, and believe it can be to your benefit, especially where you are in the DB process, but for those out there that are not at your level....
I found out as recently as last night, that this also can be a dangerous game, if you are not very, very careful. Be up front with where you are, what you are looking for.
I just had a thought while writing down my own update, and after reading Kalni's post, wanted to pass my thought along for consideration here.
Maybe it is a woman thing but I dont understand :"move on before you go back with your wife". Huh?
SO, rob will not know himself unless he meets someone special (who wont be special because THEY are all the same anyway) other than his wife? Dont get it. Maybe because I am lacking testosterone...
Are you ready for a long term committed relationship with anyone at the present time?
If your not, and I know that I am not, then you have to include your Ex in that as well!
If we have not moved on to a healthy place being alone, finding ourselves, and are not ready ourselves to commit to what a long term relationship would be, then if you got back together with your Ex, how can you expect it to work out?
Maybe it is a woman thing but I dont understand :"move on before you go back with your wife". Huh?
I dont know, maybe she just needs a good spanking. As a man, I fail to understand why some woman get off being spanked.
I "WON'T" allow lies and dishonesty back in my life.
There is your answer.
She REPRESENTS the lies and dishonesty. Your answer is to let her go through the crisis. Right now you CAN'T take her back. MUST not take her back. That means no casual or sex with benefits or whatever else you have been having with her. NONE, zilch. Let her FEEL and see that you are SERIOUS (or are you?)
By your own words you say she has lied for a long long time. There is your evidence of lies and dishonsetly being part of her. You can't get her true true respect until you FINALLY back up what you keep saying you mean UNLESS you follow through with those words with some action.
I am glad to finally see you take some action. She is finally getting a clue that you may just be serious. I believe you need to put her through a crisis of at least 6 months or more and gauge her reactions and actions from a distance.
Now for the part about needing to know what happened and details of the past... You are going about it the wrong way..
You PRESSURED her. Pressure doesn't work. Don't do that. You won't get the truth from her until she feels you are totally done and let her know that it is too LATE for the truth and you could care less anymore. However you don't think about taking her back unless she does come clean. She will when you take off the pressure by keeping on the path you are on. It will be the CRISIS that will get her to tell you the truth. Not pressure, but the crisis.
I even told her to spill the beans on the guys that I know that she had affairs with and she still couldn't spill the beans, she had to hold on to those lies, telling me it wasn't as bad as I assumed it was (how bad does it have to be?!) and she told me that even if she told me the details, how would she know for certain I would take her back - my reply was pretty much "Well you know for certain that I'm not taking back someone who is dishonest & lying to my face, you have my 100% guarantee on that", the conversation continued for a bit like this and I told her that she was just repeating the same thing over & over again and lying to me was just her attempt to control me and my reactions to what she had done and I wouldn't put up with that anymore.
This was all pressure. That doesn't work. You are trying to make a liar be an honest person. You first have to completely reject the liar and then put her in a crisis to WANT to be an honest person because she see that YOU are only "attracted" to honest women. She has to be in the kind of crisis that people are in on this site. The kind of crisis where she is asking others HOW to win you back and they tell her to work on herself and learn to be honest. She will then do it all on her own...
Face the reality Rob. She is a liar. Move away from liars. Stop trying to make a liar an honest person. The only way you can get them to change is for them to go through a major crisis that puts them in such panic that they do WHATEVER it takes. You have never gotten her to that point. Now is you opportunity. Don't waste it.
And do NOT forget about dating. It is a must. Kitty cats compete...
Gucci, I know it was pressure, maybe it was a reflex, maybe I do have some repressed anger still left inside of me, being lied to for so long, I just wanted to hear some truth for once. Yes she's afraid, you can totally see it in her face, her body language, the way she talks, the tears, the constant reaching out and touching and wanting to be held, etc.
And honestly, call me a bad person if you want to, I was beginning to be repelled by it all. It's not that I was uncomfortable because I was totally comfortable with myself during the conversations, I was really getting sick of hearing her excuses, she is still trying to protect her secrets and herself, she still doesn't want to take responsibility and give up the secrets and I just looked at her and shook my head, as in she just doesn't get it, I'm not the old me, I'm not going to settle for less, why would I, why would anyone?
As for her getting a clue, she's been experiencing the "clue" for the past 2 months after I deemed that regular casual sex was no longer doing it for me (I told her it was boring):
- limiting contact, ie. no calling, no texting, no emailing, and when she calls, I never pick up, I let her call several times before I pick up, sometimes waiting a day or two or more and it frustrates the heck out of her
- packed up her things
- put her things in boxes and placed them outside the home and told her to pick up her stuff
- had her mail forwarded to her parent's address
- there's a ton of other stuff but you get the idea
I could be wrong but I think the thing that ultimately did it was stopping the sex. My wife is very attractive physically and when I finally rejected the sex it did something that I wasn't expecting. Maybe she thought I would always want the sex from her, I just told her if all we had was casual sex, I could have that kind of sex with any other woman, why was I holding myself back just for her?
As far her spilling the beans when she feels I'm totally done, I think that was part of the exchange yesterday. I didn't show any emotion whatsoever during our conversation, I didn't argue, I was pretty much like
"are we done yet?"
"I'm busy,"
"I have to get back to work"
"plus I don't like talking about this with the kids in the other room, etc."
"No I won't have time later to talk about this, I'm tired of you saying the same old same old, what's the point of that"
"You had your chance to talk and be honest about what you did for 2 years, why is it so important to speak about this now?"
She stopped by again last night (wow what a surprise),
the same old routine followed along with "how do I know you'll forgive me if I tell you everything", i just replied telling her that she doesn't know, that wasn't an option, that part was up to me IF I CHOSE to forgive her, no one has to make me forgive her and if she was expecting forgiveness on the spot after spilling her guts out, that she was mistaken, I'm not that easy, who could be? If you're that easy, they would just do the same thing again as there was no consequence for their crappy actions.
For everyone reading this, I'm not so naive to think that hearing the truth isn't going to affect me, I would never say that or believe that. And I'll be honest, until I hear everything, I don't know what my reaction will be. I'm a single dad with 2 young children so I'm going to go all crazy & berzerk, she is the mother of my kids after all plus i'm not a crazy lunatic. I do know that I don't have to guarantee anything to her, she was supposed to be faithful to me and she never stuck to that agreement, no one says I have to stay with her just because she finally admits the details of what she has done and who she has done IT with. Part of her being an adult is taking responsibility for what she's done and knowing there are consequences for her actions, one of those consequences include losing me.
Gucci I have faced the reality that my wife is a liar for quite some time already, that's the part that bothers me. I know I can't be with a dishonest person anymore thats why I rarely give her the time of day, yesterday was the first time in 2 months that I spoke with her as long as I did.
Another thing I realized a long time is that someone who has to lie regularly, someone who has to be dishonest & deceitful on a regular basis has very low self-esteem. You would have to have low self-esteem to lie regularly. I have to assume she can't just be lying to me but pretty much anyone in her life. She has to lie about herself, who she is, what she does, what her value is because she believes that people won't accept her as she is - this is the life she designed for herself a few years ago and it never worked out according to her plan and she has to live with this person that she sees every time she looks in a mirror and she knows it.
She enjoys the attention from other men when she goes out with her friends to the clubs but when she realized that none of them wanted anything more than a piece of ass, that attention & validation she got from these other men was a like a sugar high, a quick buzz to begin with but then she crashed hard when that attention wasn't around.
Maybe she looked down on me for wanting her the way I did for such a long time, I was supposed to be this strong, cool, confident, smart guy and I was wasting my time on someone who would reject me and maybe she couldn't respect that on some level (regardless if I was her husband or not) and when I stopped and wouldn't waste my energy, time or attention on her, she noticed it was real, I wasn't joking this time.
I cut off pretty much all contact 2 months ago but I had actually started in July/August of this year, you reach a personal limit when living in limbo, you know you've had enough and you slowly start to shift towards a direction to make your way out of limbo.
And you're right, maybe I was inadvertently trying to make an honest person out of a liar and that isn't my job, it's actually controlling on my part to do that. She knows that I want honesty, if she can't admit the details of what happened and with who, it's no longer my concern and in the end I just view it as her loss like I currently do.
My value is too high to allow myself to settle for this crap.
And Gucci, the dating is good, I never expected it to be THIS GOOD, it's quite possible she's caught wind of that as well, if so it wasn't intentional, I'm not hiding my tracks but I'm also not blatantly putting them out there on display either.
Maybe it is a woman thing but I dont understand :"move on before you go back with your wife". Huh?
I dont know, maybe she just needs a good spanking. As a man, I fail to understand why some woman get off being spanked.
- it was part of our new sex life, she enjoyed being smacked on the ass, she loves hair pulling, forceful, not violent, she enjoys the dirty talk, the xxx rated stuff, she likes being pulled into positions during sex, she likes it when the guy is in control, she enjoys being man-handled in bed, she doesn't mind the slow passionate love making but she prefers a good long pounding - truth be told, I pretty much enjoyed all of this stuff to, I'm young, I'm healthy, I'm GAME!
Jesus...
There is enough info in this few pages of posts to digest from so many of you this should become a sticky thread at some point.
Robx, I agree completely with Gucci, he nailed it. Minus 1 aspect that I am not convinced of yet..
And do NOT forget about dating. It is a must. Kitty cats compete
I understand completely why you would do this, and believe it can be to your benefit, especially where you are in the DB process, but for those out there that are not at your level....
I found out as recently as last night, that this also can be a dangerous game, if you are not very, very careful. Be up front with where you are, what you are looking for.
I have been dating, I'm being careful, no sex, no kissing, just a ton of first & second dates and then I usually end it at that point, regardless if women agree on keeping it on a friendly level, after a few dates, they all want more so ending it at that point usually keeps things safe for everyone without it getting emotional.
Maybe it is a woman thing but I dont understand :"move on before you go back with your wife". Huh?
SO, rob will not know himself unless he meets someone special (who wont be special because THEY are all the same anyway) other than his wife? Dont get it. Maybe because I am lacking testosterone...
For the record, I like gucci's approach. You cant force anyone to be honest, I tried that all last year. (I like gucci). Let her go thru the crisis. (Maybe I should have let H go thru it a while longer, more than 2-2,5 months, but our sitch was a bit different).
K
PS rob, what the h$ll is a "european triple whatever". I live in Europe, where can I get it? LOLOL!!!
LOL!
Kalni you are funny!
Being triple teamed european style, I heard that expression used on an HBO sitcom and I've been quoting it regularly ever since. Triple teamed obviously means 3 guys and 1 girl (or 3 girls 1 guy), as for "european style", use your imagination as I don't know what that part would involve LOL!
I can't see any changes that your W has made. What good would it do to allow her to come home to you if nothing has changed? The only change I see in the stitch now and when you first came on board.....is your personal changes. That is good, but "she" hasn't done anything that I can see.
I think she still tries to control you by using sex. You may have seen it as fun, exciting, or whatever........but she was using it as a control hold on you. She knows that that has been your weak area....her body.
When you approached her about coming out of limbo and trying to have a R together (instead of just wild monkey sex), she didn't seem to have a problem turning you down. But as soon as you let her know you would be moving on......then that was her clue to play her game--but when she didn't get her way...she threw her usual fit (as I recall). Isn't that what she has always done when she didn't get her way?
So now she sees you as unavailable and she is getting overly obsessed with pursuing you. You know what you would tell another poster here on the board. You have good advice, Rob, so turn it around and use it on yourself.
I think she has had sex with somebody close to you. I think it would be a turn-on (to her) to accomplish that. It's not only a power thing for her, but it was somebody that should have been hands-off to her. Thus.....added excitement and challenge. (Kind of like you are to her, at the moment.)
She sees the changes you've made in yourself and she knows that if she tells you everything....it will be a dealbreaker for you.
You have this thing called self-respect.....and she knows that, now. So....unless you see that she is making changes in herself, why would you think she would even stop at having A's with OM if the two of you got back together? I think it is needs to go futher than her giving you details.
Sandi you're right, she does try to control me with the sex, honestly I was selfish and the sex was great so I can blame myself for a year and half of this kind of activity, I knew it was going on but I still allowed it to happen just because I enjoyed the sex so much
But that's also why I stopped and cut it off and that's what made her angry so I know that I cut off her ability to control me, without the sex, she had no other way to control me.
I don't see the changes, none of the changes she said she is in the process of making, she mentioned she's been seeing a counsellor for the past few months and I told her it was good to hear that and I hoped it worked out well for her, I didn't offer her any more than that.
... And there will be no sex, I won't let her "tag" me again. I'm in control, I know that now and I've held my ground for 2+ months now so I'm confident about rejecting her advances, she tried again last night to start something with a kiss while she was over "talking" and I pushed her away and told her "no thanks, I'm not falling for that anymore", it was her standard text book operating procedure, try to get me hard, worked up, have sex and resume her position in the driver's seat and I stopped it before anything happened and she got angry, true colors revealed yet again.
Tritto.
Actually, Ditto minus the part about moving forward with the divorce. You and you alone know what you want; don't be ashamed to ask for what you want. If your W complies, you win. If she is doesn't, you move on and you win.
Seems to me the only way you lose is by taking her back without getting what you really want (Honesty and an end to the lies).
Yup, that is it exactly!
Rob, It seems you know what the deal-breaker is for you. You have defined it pretty clear, even both the M & W see it here. You know your goal so what are the objectives to get you there?
"You want the "truth"?"
"You really want the "truth"?"
Rob, honestly, man you do not want the details. It is not as simple as you say "pre-conceived notions."
It a MF'ing vision that will never go away once you really know.
You might think it does then one day a year or two or five or seven years down the road you are sitting at the kitchen table having a beer then BAM like a god''damn horror film the whole scene changes and BZZZZZZZZ its in your mind and thats all you see suddenly and you are pissed off for good.
It comes back from time to time before that, here and there. Anything you hear about it from her, things they did, places, stupid things like they drank budwiser, well $hit, hate the king of beers, you are drinking PBR from now on. He had an SUV. You'll never want to get in one again. and honestly, you might never put your mouth down there again.
and find out who he is 2 years later? you wont beat the daylights out of the guy next time you see him? honestly Rob, think about it.
Little F'ing details of this and that? they get in the crevices of your mind and mess you up down the road. Ask people who have been there. they are not the ones whose marriages survived infidelity.
When I read these young guys whose wife is having an affair or worse on her second or third and he professing his unconditional love to her in his posts, I some times sit back and think he hasnt seen it yet. He doesnt get the visions. There isnt really anyway to warn him. He wont listen; he isnt listening to anything anybody who isnt trying to comfort him is saying anyway.
So, I'm just giving you something to think about. A little counter-intuititive version of what you think it might be like for you.
strength, confidence, self respect have nothing to do with it; its some guy porking your wife and hearing the details from her mouth and then living with her and that knowledge afterwards. its hard to supress.
maybe she wont tell you because she knows you will walk away. should walk away after hearing.
Yes Steve, this crazy bastard still wants the truth,
I don't need the intimate details (or at least I don't think I do) but I want to know who. I seriously need to know that I haven't been buddy buddy with the guy who had an affair with my wife and looked me straight in the eye as if he did nothing.
I can't be that chump, I won't be.
Will i knock his block off, seriously I don't know.
That's me being honest.
Part of me would want to, who wouldn't want knock out the guys teeth and make him spit them out like watermelon seeds after something like this.
I also have kids and I don't see myself going to jail after breaking this guy's jaw, I'm going to be their parent for as long as I live and I won't do something stupid like incur jail time.
But yeah I want to know who, when, how long the affair lasted, etc. Heck if they did it in the master bedroom of my house in the bed that I currently sleep in, I would want to know so that I can give the bed and the bedroom furniture away to good will and sleep in something untainted.
Honestly I do want to know, and yes I agree at the same time, the details will sit in the crevices of my brain for the rest of my life - maybe it's dumb for me to want this.
Steve for what it's worth, thanks for the post, I think you know me pretty well.
Sometimes the guy who gives advice wants advice too... it happens ;-)
Rob, It seems you know what the deal-breaker is for you. You have defined it pretty clear, even both the M & W see it here. You know your goal so what are the objectives to get you there?
Well it seems that these past few months of actually practicing what I preach have produced these results.
I didn't want to live in limbo anymore, I realized it was my choice, it's always tougher to take the appropriate action than say you are taking that appropriate action.
- My wife now knows that I'm selling the house in the spring.
- I'm still actively putting her things together in boxes
- our finances are being separated.
- the big one, I finally made her take the kids 50% of the time, previously I had them for easily 70,80,90% of the time. She struggles with this because she works part-time with a schedule that isn't fixed, lives at home with her parents, her parents are really good grandparents to my kids but they are older and my kids are our younger, the kids are a handful and she ends up fighting with her parents regularly because they feel like they are doing most of the parenting when they have our kids because my wife still enjoys going out, that is however her problem to deal with, no one said life is easy, and life with children can be difficult but nothing to complain about. I work full-time and I can handle it and I know my kids enjoy coming home when it's my week & weekend to have them (I'm the only adult in my house, I'm obviously not fighting with anyone to help take care of my kids LOL!), although it can be fun for them to visit grandma/grandpa and be with mom, life over there isn't always easy and I do take them for extra time when I'm told things are going that great at grandma's.
- there is a ton more that I could post as to what I did to get here
As far what I need to do to accomplish the objectives of getting her to be honest with me.... seriously I'm tapped out, I know the game plan of what usually works successfully for getting them to come back but what to do when she wants to come back (as in, she told me she wants to move back home and be with her husband and be a good wife and create a good environment with the kids).
I can't force her to be honest.
Honesty is the dealbreaker, I want the truth, I also know that the first few attempts at the truth are going to be half-assed, half truth/half lies, I don't see her coming clean with everything during her first attempt at this.
I do sense that she is ready to tell me something and she has never been at this point before because I'm checking out at this point.
Detachment is one thing but this is another.
This was something I posted a year ago, what happens when you detach too much.
I have trust issues with her, she betrayed my trust, she lies to me, she cheated on me, she has dones things to hurt me, she has been uber selfish, etc. etc. etc.
Those aren't things that can be swept under the rug and forgotten.
I don't know if atonement is the right word but seriously what actions could she do to build trust again? Consistent action,maybe? But that would take a while, we're not talking days or weeks here, we're talking months & years to rebuild this trust and I'm not sure she has it in her.
My value is sky high right now, I'm not conceited but I think she can see that I'm high value so much so that maybe attempting to scale this mountain appears to be mission impossible.
I'm not sure I want to make it easy on her even if I was to forgive her and if I have to say it, I don't want to forgive her, if forgiveness was to take place it would take a while. Saying sorry isn't enough, you can't just say sorry and continue to act poorly without regard to someone's life and your affect on it.
I'm at a point where I've been in limbo for too long, my current path is out of limbo and back to a great place for me and that's where I am right now.
My real fear is that I bring her back into my life and the same bowl of $hit soup manifests itself and I can't eat that crap again.
I'm with Steve. I completely understand wanting to know "everything" but that's not what the transparency thing is about. Steve is absolutely right; the details are far worse in the knowing than in the imagining, believe it or not. Everything written about coming back from affairs says the same thing--minimal details. yes, identity is ok.
Rob,
Your situation is so similar to mine, except that I only found out about the affairs this summer. She had successfully hidden/lied/deceived me for the past couple of years, while continuing to play along with the charade of being my wife. Now that I know that entire truth, at least as far as who/when (not details), I'm going through so many of the same thoughts and feelings as you. I just wish that I was further along with my detachment like you, since it's still pretty fresh for me.
Just wanted to thank you for sharing your situation and let you know that you are not alone.
She struggles with this because she works part-time with a schedule that isn't fixed, lives at home with her parents, her parents are really good grandparents to my kids but they are older and my kids are our younger, the kids are a handful and she ends up fighting with her parents regularly because they feel like they are doing most of the parenting when they have our kids because my wife still enjoys going out, that is however her problem to deal with, no one said life is easy, and life with children can be difficult but nothing to complain about.
New World Record - Longest sentence ever! All kidding aside, your W sounds so similar to my XW who also thrives on the attention given her in night clubs by the guys trying to score. It is an addiction. And she still gets a babysitter to go out when it is the kids weekend with her. I can almost predict that her new husband is going to encounter similar problems with her down the road.
This was something I posted a year ago, what happens when you detach too much.
Simple answer - one realizes that the grass is indeed greener away from someone who continually lies.
I know this is anti-divorce busting, but my opinion remains the same based upon my own similar experience - I would divorce her and move on. There are women out who have much higher morals and honorable traits.
Strength and Honor
Kerry
Kerry this site only has a built in spell checker, doesn't check grammar and long run on sentences ;-)
well she came by this afternoon,
dropped off a christmas card just for me,
with some heartfelt words, asked for a hug and then walked away with tears in her eyes, I do feel bad for her but I can't budge on the honesty issue, I want the full disclosure & transparency, without it, a 1000 of these christmas cards isn't going to do anything for me - I'll take the truth & honesty over a christmas card any day of the year!
Well, you know what they say, the worst vice is ad-vice, so I don't have any (it's one of the few vices I avoid).
A clarification request and a sequencing question/thought:
First, what do you mean by "spill the beans?" (I'm with SMcQ on this -- do you really want to hear her say, 'I was on him like a Hoover vacuum'?) MWD talks about this in the infidelity chapter -- some people need all the nit-noid details, others don't.
Second, how do you envision the sequencing going? I'm thinking about this from her POV. I tell you everything, down to the most embarrassing, gory detail, and you get wig out because I did "this" or "that" to him and tell me to f*ck off -- so what's in it for me, exactly?
Would it be enough that she acknowledged the affair(s) as her opening bid, and then the gorier details get could get sorted out in counseling?
This is, after all, a strategic interaction -- it's not really a bargaining environment if the first-round negotiation is "my way or no way."
Now perhaps that's really what's going on, and you're just not willing to acknowledge it. Maybe "I won't have dishonesty" is simply a rationalization because you can't bring yourself to say, "I don't want her under any set of circumstances."
If that's the case, then you might want to think about spilling the beans to yourself.
If it isn't the case, then it might be worth thinking of this as a sequenced interaction. First, the teams need to get on the same playing field. So what's it going to take to make that happen?
Hey SP,
as for the details, I'm not looking for the nitty gritty intimate details, I want to know who & when and for how long it went on, we have a large circle of friends and I always had a sneaking suspicion something went on with one of our friends and I can't be that clueless chump that walks around not knowing that I'm buddy buddy with a guy that screwed my wife - I deserve to know this much. As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm not looking to find out if she was "triple teamed european style", that's the not the scope of what I'm looking for. I also want to know when the last encounter was and if she was with both of us at that time - yes another thing that I want to know.
As for what's in it for her?
Good question, but my answer is nothing.
I'm not here to give her anything.
I've turned this around, she has lost me and she realizes it and now she's scrambling and I would be dishonest if I didn't say I didn't enjoy this just a bit - all of the crap that she put me through in the beginning was enough to break most men including the guy who is typing this response now.
In the end it's my decision to forgive but I'm not going to offer forgiveness so easily or at all, I'm not sure yet. But I can tell you that none of that will exist in the current environment, if she isn't honest with me, there is no possibility for me to offer forgiveness at all.
If me rationalizing to myself that "I won't have dishonesty" is just an excuse for me not to forgive her, if that's what it truly is, its very possible that this is the case.
I know I'm at the point where I haven't lost anything anymore, I have gained more from this current situation. She was my wife, she was someone I trusted and now regardless of the legalities involved, she isn't any of those things, I don't trust her, she continues to behave in ways that don't promote trust and no one has to accept that just because you are married to someone.
Without trust & honesty there is nothing, the sex was great, I acknowledge that, but I also acknowledge that I contributed to that and that means I can have great sex with another partner if & when that situation presents itself, she doesn't hold that over me anymore and she can't control me that way anymore either - this is why we're at this point now, she lost that ability to control me and she was very used to that power and she has nothing left. Coupled with the dating which it's quite possible she knows about, something crazy has triggered her recent reactions.
In the end, I know that ultimately it's my decision to love her, to take her back, to forgive her for what she's done, I know that much.
However before any of that is possible for me, I want the truth and I want to know about the details of the affair(s) that I specifically asked about, without that info, none of these other things would be remotely possible for me.
Ask her if she's ready for the long haul, the process that is rebuilding. No matter how much I love my W I couldn't begin to start again without the mutual understanding that it will not happen overnight, that it will be a long journey and that not much will appear to change for a long time.
What you're going through could be considered a part of the reconciliation process, in that much of it is about the clashes that come from re-learning about each other and what led up to the problems. If that's the case, I congratulate you.
Love, I'm learning is about conciliation, collaboration, cooperation. You have to get over the ego tug-o-war. I couldn't. I know I'll have to in order to move forward, but I'm not willing to if she isn't either. It's the "who drops their guard first" dilemma.
My only real advice is to offer some olive branch, despite the past betrayals, and see what happens. Give fair warning that any sign of dishonesty, etc will lead to your immediate shut-down. She has to work for the rest, but my hunch is that if she is serious, it will lead to more honest communication.
Take it or leave it. I'm still pining for a W that clearly wants nothing to do w/ me romantically, so what do I know? I hope it helps, though.
robx
1st time post to your thread....
BTW, on my thread... sorry about the MR Puggy thing... I am not really that shallow to think otherwise.
Back to you... I have done a lot of reading here...WOW!
Agree with you 100%. You have the right to know. I would also hate to be walking around "buddy buddy" not knowing what others may know thinking I know what I don't know and looking like the A$$ because of something I did not do. If that makes sense.
You are in control of you now. That's the way it should be. If she wants you back, she needs to earn your trust.
Thats all. I agree with you.
Good Luck with everything.
Here's the thing: she will have nothing if she continues on the way she is going. If he takes her back without full (who-where-when) disclosure, she will only be confirmed in her (as reported) conviction that no one will love her if they know who she really is, but she can get them to love the liar.
That's an agonizing way to live, there's an emptiness at the heart of everything. Rob would do her no favors by enabling that belief.
She has no guarantee, and I don't think that's unfair. How can he give her a preemptive guarantee that all will be forgiven when he knows the truth without knowing what that truth comprises?
She has the chance to break through to a better relationship than she ever imagined if she just is able to take a leap of faith here and stop trying to manage her image and others' perceptions. Even without guarantees, I think that's a risk worth taking. It could even be viewed as a gift.
I think SP has a point worth considering on the continuum-of-revelation. It seems like what you're mostly looking for is a symbolic commitment to honesty from her, yes? At first, I mean. Instead of the resistance you've been getting. If she surrendered on that point, would you think about some kind of schedule or process (in counseling, perhaps, as aforesaid) for progressive truth?
Resistance to being honest is the deal breaker, and I'm not going to enable her behaviors, I'll continue doing what i'm doing and move on with my life, I can't force her to come clean with the info but I can guarantee you that I would want nothing to do with someone who can't be honest with me.
She has no guarantee, and I don't think that's unfair. How can he give her a preemptive guarantee that all will be forgiven when he knows the truth without knowing what that truth comprises?
My point exactly.
Maybe it's just me but I think i've given enough: my marriage, the past 2 years of my life living in limbo and her having an affair/affairs seems to me like something has been taken away from me. I don't think I want to give anymore at this point, that's not me being selfish, it's just me being honest with what I want to have and what I want to give if anything.
Rob,
For what it’s worth, I read just a few days ago that a marriage stands an 85% better chance of surviving if the details of the affair are discussing. (I can cite the source if you like).
My W still doesn’t know that I know about the A, but I pondered this and it makes sense. If my W eventually does want to come back, I’ve decided that she’ll have to honest about what happened. Without honesty, there can be no real trust. I would want to know, “When did it start? When did it move from an EA to a PA? How often did you see him? When did it end? How/why did it end?” I don’t need the gory details.
If you don’t know this stuff, you’ll go forward always wondering. And isn’t that where we are now – always wondering? That’s no way to heal a relationship much less move forward with it, IMO.
I think SP has a point worth considering on the continuum-of-revelation. It seems like what you're mostly looking for is a symbolic commitment to honesty from her, yes? At first, I mean. Instead of the resistance you've been getting. If she surrendered on that point, would you think about some kind of schedule or process (in counseling, perhaps, as aforesaid) for progressive truth?
I think SP and Kettricken make good points re: the continuum of revealtion. It seems that you are looking for a large scale truth-dump where all the gory details are brought out in one shot. You want 100% honesty and after two years of fighting, showing strength and growing as a person, you deserve nothing less than 100% honesty. The problem with honesty is that it is really sort of a nebulous concept. You can never really know if someone is being 100% honest, even in a healthy relationship. If she came to you and confessed 100 affairs and gave million details, you would still have a feeling in the back of your mind that maybe that wasn't the whole story. Don't get me wrong, I am a details kind of guy and I won't move forward with my W (if we ever get to that point) without some serious sharing on her part.
IMO, your W needs to admit something at this point and show remorse, for me, that would be the minimum cover charge to get in the reconcilliation door. I think the continuum approach is good and instead of looking at the quantity of the effort, maybe a better measure of her commitment is the quality and consistency of her efforts over the coming months.
I think SP and Kettricken make good points re: the continuum of revealtion. It seems that you are looking for a large scale truth-dump where all the gory details are brought out in one shot. You want 100% honesty and after two years of fighting, showing strength and growing as a person, you deserve nothing less than 100% honesty. The problem with honesty is that it is really sort of a nebulous concept. You can never really know if someone is being 100% honest, even in a healthy relationship. If she came to you and confessed 100 affairs and gave million details, you would still have a feeling in the back of your mind that maybe that wasn't the whole story. Don't get me wrong, I am a details kind of guy and I won't move forward with my W (if we ever get to that point) without some serious sharing on her part.
IMO, your W needs to admit something at this point and show remorse, for me, that would be the minimum cover charge to get in the reconcilliation door. I think the continuum approach is good and instead of looking at the quantity of the effort, maybe a better measure of her commitment is the quality and consistency of her efforts over the coming months.
Junco tell me you own a bar or a nightclub,
when you talk like that you make it sound so simple, LOL!
I think you're on the right track, honesty is a nebulous concept but that being said, it isn't an outdated concept. It's bad to be honest nowadays, everyone has to lie, everyone has to put on a face, we have to mislead, we have to be more than what we are because heaven forbid, we just be ourselves, no one would accept us for that ;-)
I want honesty, million details? maybe not but honest none the less, and I'll get it either by her admitting the "gory" details (did she kill someone?) or by her not admitting anything as in who, what, where and when - I'll be ok either way, her... not so much so.
Robx,
Do you want to reconcile or not? Your choice.
Maybe you should take things slow, ask for transparency until you are more comfortable. Pray about it.
I know what you're wife (may) be feeling. As one who had an affair, I did not want to disclose details because I was afraid it would end things. Maybe that's fair to you, so you can make a decision about if this would be a dealbreaker. If she has truly repented, those things may come out in due time.
Do you want to reconcile or not?
IMO, your W needs to admit something at this point and show remorse, for me, that would be the minimum cover charge to get in the reconcilliation door. I think the continuum approach is good and instead of looking at the quantity of the effort, maybe a better measure of her commitment is the quality and consistency of her efforts over the coming months.
Ditto.
Nope, wish I did though! I might like it better than the corporate environment where I have to wear a different face at work than I do at home lest someone not like me ; ). I agree with you about honesty though, I am a pretty progressive man but I am old school when it cones to integrity, values, etc. Your thread has been eye opening for me. As LBS, we become singularly focused on getting the WAS to want to come back. We think the battle will be won at that point, however, it appears that it is just the beginning of the even bigger battle of rebuilding trust. See, when I said that honesty is that intangible concept that really can't be fully known, in the back of my mind, I was thinking that it is trust that helps us close that gap and allows us to build intimate relationships. In situations such as ours, trust is gone which makes things really difficult as far is rebuilding is concerned. For me, only through consistent, long term effort will my W ever re-establish trust with me. Maybe at that point, I can believe that she is being honest.
I have seen it so many times on this forum, believe nothing they say and only 50% of what they do.
Seriously though, in the end, you have helped so many on this forum that you may soon be eligible for DB sainthood. I honestly hope that I can reach the point that you are at where you know that you are "high value". I wish you the best in your efforts to move your sitch forward to a better place
Hey Rob. One question.
Do you feel you have co-dependancy issues?
You know I've thought about that a few times,
I don't think I have co-dependancy issues, these past few months have seen very little to no contact with her and it's probably been some of the happiest & smoothest times for myself. What does that tell you? I can't comment on her, it's quite possible she has those issues and struggles with them.
Hi Rob. I asked that question just about you. And I feel that you did not answer the question. Unless your answer is I do not know.
You know I've thought about that a few times,
I don't think I have co-dependancy issues, these past few months have seen very little to no contact with her and it's probably been some of the happiest & smoothest times for myself. What does that tell you? I can't comment on her, it's quite possible she has those issues and struggles with them.
I don't have co-dependancy issues, I feel very healthy with myself: mentally, emotionally & physically.
thanks rob. And thank you for your thread. It helps understand what you post here.
Patterns and Characteristics
Codependents Anonymous offers these patterns and characteristics as a tool to aid in self-evaluation.[1]
Denial Patterns:
* I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
* I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel.
* I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well being of others.
Low Self Esteem Patterns:
* I have difficulty making decisions.
* I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough."
* I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
* I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires.
* I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own.
* I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.
Compliance Patterns:
* I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
* I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
* I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
* I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
* I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.
* I accept sex when I want love.
Control Patterns:
* I believe most other people are incapable of taking care of themselves.
* I attempt to convince others of what they "should" think and how they "truly" feel.
* I become resentful when others will not let me help them.
* I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked.
* I lavish gifts and favors on those I care about.
* I use sex to gain approval and acceptance.
* I have to be "needed" in order to have a relationship with others.
I would say i have been in the denial and compliance patterns...
Patterns and Characteristics
Codependents Anonymous offers these patterns and characteristics as a tool to aid in self-evaluation.[1]
Denial Patterns:
* I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
* I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel.
* I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well being of others.
Low Self Esteem Patterns:
* I have difficulty making decisions.
* I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough."
* I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
* I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires.
* I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own.
* I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.
Compliance Patterns:
* I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
* I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
* I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
* I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
* I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.
* I accept sex when I want love.
Control Patterns:
* I believe most other people are incapable of taking care of themselves.
* I attempt to convince others of what they "should" think and how they "truly" feel.
* I become resentful when others will not let me help them.
* I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked.
* I lavish gifts and favors on those I care about.
* I use sex to gain approval and acceptance.
* I have to be "needed" in order to have a relationship with others.
LOL!
Guilty as charged on this one:
* I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked.
Could you and the wife spare a weekend to go to Retrouvaille? I ask because it is a very different approach for both of you. I see your marriage as a power struggle -- either you get your way, or she gets hers, but never the two of you compromising. Retrouvaille asks you both to go with open minds and willing hearts - two things that I don't see either of you using at home. From there they elicit conversations between you that involve you as equal partners. This would be a big change in dynamic for the two of you. But you might be able to get something out of it. And, if not, then it was just a weekend.
Rob, why did you initiate this thread right before christmas?
Steve it's a good question,
I haven't updated my situation in such a long time and I guess I wanted to document these events as they were unfolding, it's a pretty dramatic change in my situation where is she is asking to come back home after such a long time.
I've been detaching for so long to the point where I was no longer attached to the outcome, I moved on, have been living my life my way for such a long time and then for this to happen, honestly I was caught off guard, I didn't expect it after all this time because I wasn't moving on with my life with the purpose of making my wife want to come back home.
But now that she wants to come home but still hasn't been honest about the details of the affair(s), I wanted feedback, maybe part of this is closure for me, I want to know what happened before I move on, maybe I want my family to be whole again, I don't know, so many conflicting thoughts swirling around in my head.
I know I'm never going to beg & plead to have her or anyone else in my life and I know that anyone in my life is going to be respectful, trustworthy and honest with me, I don't want lies in my life anymore. Maybe I also want to let those who are dealing with spouses that lied to them to not settle for crap in their lives.
Initiating the thread before christmas was purely coincidental, it was just my posting details of recent occurrences as they happened, it has nothing to do with christmas, if this had happened during the 2nd week of January 2010, I would have posted it as well.
Incidentally, my wife just called this morning, she would like to come over and "talk", honestly I'm not sure how much I want to hear about anything on the 24th and 25th, I will probably just have her visit with the kids, I would like the next 2 days to be great for myself and the kids.
Could you and the wife spare a weekend to go to Retrouvaille? I ask because it is a very different approach for both of you. I see your marriage as a power struggle -- either you get your way, or she gets hers, but never the two of you compromising. Retrouvaille asks you both to go with open minds and willing hearts - two things that I don't see either of you using at home. From there they elicit conversations between you that involve you as equal partners. This would be a big change in dynamic for the two of you. But you might be able to get something out of it. And, if not, then it was just a weekend.
Lotus that's spooky because you don't know me or her but you hit the nail right on the head with that assessment!
Robx,
I really feel for you in your situation. Last night, I talked with my W and she finally after 2.5 years came completely clean on all of her indiscretions (
read here). I can't say that hearing the truth is easy. MAJOR agonizing gut-punches, actually. But I needed to hear her confess directly to me the things I already knew (BTW, one of the encounters was with someone in our close circle of friends). I haven't had 2 years to detach like you have, and my W isn't wanting to come back, knowing that I will never be able to trust her again, so our sitches are different, but I understand your need to know...I'm just like you in that regard. I do feel a sense of relief of sorts. I know that it will eventually help provide me closure. If nothing else, it confirmed the path that I know I have to travel.
My heart is with you and your kids this Christmas.
Merry Christmas Rob.
Cheers
Thank you Coach.
Merry Christmas to you & your family, all the best to you in 2010!
The same goes for the rest of you db'ers,
to every user on these forums,
Merry Christmas to all of you,
I wish you all some relief from your current situations,
happiness in your hearts, peace in your minds,
and belly pain from eating too much food during the christmas holidays!
As for me, I have a turkey to wrestle with and I'm gonna rip his guts out and baste his a$$ in butter!
Merry Christmas Rob.
I've got me kids all the way through until Monday.
We aren't wrassling no Turkey - kids prefer good amounts of Dungeness Crab for their Christmas dinner. I may throw in a few lobster tails with butter also.
Merry Christmas to you and your family Robx!
crab & lobster, hmmmm.... apparently KerryK is an aristocrat ;-)
Have a Merry Christmas Kerry!
Merry Christmas robx and the rest of the DB community out there. Wouldn't have made it through this crappy year without all of you folks. I will toast to all of you and a better 2010 when I open a cold one tonight!
Hi Rob,
I'm a little late to the fray. Here's what I have to say about the sitch:
You are asking your wife to separate the ashes from the lentils of her life. She is forced to sit by the fire and take inventory. She brings the lentils picked from the ashes to you and hopes for admittance to the ball. Only the wicked stepmother is cruel enough to force someone to do this. Aschenputtel (the Grimm forerunner of Cinderella) is an allegory for taking stock of our lives. It is a task that your W just can't face.
I'm not saying that you don't need or deserve this information. I'm just saying that this is possibly more than she can bear.
You might make a spreadsheet for her
Name EA/PANI/PA Month on-month done Info I need
I need to know names, EA or PA (w or w/o Intercourse), dates, and anything I need for social interaction (we jeopardized jobs, friends etc.) That way she knows what is expected. The interrogation won't be endless. After one year of transparency (reconciliation or not) the spreadsheet will be ritually burned along with any conversation about the matter. If there are any lies, even one, it's a dealbreaker....
It's an idea. Merry christmas, I'm off to wrap the last.
SpinFree
Robx, I'm trying to contact some of the men to go guide a newcomer in the WAW Sydrome forum. He apparently won't listen to me or wait to get the answers he needs. He is Maynard under Please Help.
Thanks
Rob,
I was just wondering how your situation is coming. It sounds great that your W is wanting to reconcile, but I can understand your issues of trust after the affair. There is a scripture in the bible. Forgive me I'm not that well veresed.
God asks a man to marry a prostitute. Things go well for some time and he loves her dearly. Eventually, she strays and becomes a prostitute again. She sinks to the lowest and ends up being a slave. The man ends up buying her back and forgives her despite her sin and indescretion. He loves her unconditionally and forgives her just as God forgives us. Think about that.
Hi, Rob,
Sorry for coming late to the party.
Not sure if you've considered this aspect or not, so here goes. What's holding your W up from giving you the info you want could well be an unwillingness to face the depth and breadth of her own shame. It's a form of denial. And while denial does involve deceit, it doesn't quite carry the full weight of outright lies. Behind the shame is fear - fear of what you will think of her, fear of what SHE will think of herself and fear of what you will DO with the information she reveals.
Will you use it to bludgeon her with for the rest of her life?
Will you use it in a hostile divorce?
Will you use it to trash her name in the community?
Will you put it on a blog on the internet? etc.
If you can validate, and then alleviate, the fear and shame, she may move forward. Right now, you and she are in adversarial positions. Is there a way you can maintain your own boundaries and yet become a source of (emotional) support for her? Is there a way you can become a team instead of adversaries?
Yes, she does have to face her shame to move forward. She can do that best if she doesn't have to face any fears, rational or not, that you will rub her face in it.
Dia, sorry to hijack this stich but I have been reading yours and your advise is fantastic. I am on 'He is about to file - do I give up? Would really appreciate it if you could have a look at my stitch and give me some insight.
Many thanks
L
Rob,
I was just wondering how your situation is coming. It sounds great that your W is wanting to reconcile, but I can understand your issues of trust after the affair. There is a scripture in the bible. Forgive me I'm not that well veresed.
God asks a man to marry a prostitute. Things go well for some time and he loves her dearly. Eventually, she strays and becomes a prostitute again. She sinks to the lowest and ends up being a slave. The man ends up buying her back and forgives her despite her sin and indescretion. He loves her unconditionally and forgives her just as God forgives us. Think about that.
Took a break from the forums, only commented a few times in the past few days, as for my own situation, I spent new years eve with my kids and we had a great time, my wife spent it with her parents and was visibly affected by all of this - she forgot that she had done this to me the previous year - I reminded her that this is what joint custody was all about, sharing the kids and each of us would be losing out on specific dates.
Today she texted me easily 2 dozen times and also asked if I was ignoring her, that she wanted to talk to me, how I could easily brush her off, etc. etc. I was at the gym for a few hours and I missed the bulk of these texts but you can see how not replying to txt messages and phone calls can drive a spouse crazy, each msg was followed by another one only a few minutes later with a heightened sense of anxiety attached to each one.
She wants to talk badly, I told her to call me later in the evening after the kids are in bed and we can talk - we'll see what she wants to talk about ;-)
She came over tonight for a bit after I put the kids to bed.
She hasn't admitted anything,
she looks very scared and she was crying quite a bit.
"No matter what i do from now on, it won't be good enough"
"You're going to be angry with me"
"You'll never forgive me"
"I wasn't well before, I'm better now"
And then she mentioned that she's been going to personal counselling for her issues and she wants me to come there, I asked why, she said it would be easier to tell me things in that environment.
I just repeated the same things to her:
- I won't live without honesty in my life,
- I won't be with someone who lies and is deceitful and hides things from me
- I won't be with her just because of the kids, my life is too valuable to waste in a loveless relationship
- I am happy as is (and she knows it), joint custody works for me, I have no problems taking care of my kids and I could do this indefinitely
She talked about us, she mentioned that she wants her family back, she wants me back, she loves me, etc.
I told her that all those things are good things but I would only decide to be with her after she's been completely honest with me, regardless of how scary it is, I want to know what happened.
I told her that she doesn't have to tell me, she can keep her secrets but she has 0% chance of being with me if that's what she chooses.
I also told her that I won't guarantee that I would decide to take her back even if she admits what she has done and with who, she can't expect to tell me everything and just expect that I forgive her for what she's done and take her back. I told her that I could learn to forgive her in time but that was my decision to do so and it was also my decision if I wanted to be with her or not. If she would only admit to me what she has done on the condition that I take her back that she was still attempting to control me. When she lied to me in the past, it was her controlling me, that's what happens when people lie to other people, they are attempting to control the other person's reaction - when you're honest with someone, it can be scary but you have no control of the outcome other than the fact that you were honest.
She cried for a bit, and I held her because she needed it, it was the kind of sobbing that makes a person's body tremble uncontrollably. (trust me, been there, done that) I'm not an ass, regardless of my decision in the end with her, I wouldn't let anyone regardless of what they did to me, disintegrate with that kind of emotion & fear in their body. She's holding on to alot of pain, anxiety, fear, etc.
She thanked me for listening before leaving our home, I told her to drive safe and to get some rest because she has an early morning shift at work tomorrow and that was that. She asked if we could talk again tomorrow, told her to call me tomorrow and I'd let her know if I was available in the evening or not.
I handled it well,
I'm actually feeling really good about all of this,
I wasn't an ass, I validated her feelings while we talked because I really did listen but I also made my stance clear on all of this and I feel good about that.
I've never seen anyone so sad & afraid to lose someone as i did tonight.
The floodgates on all of this will soon open,
you can feel it (well I can feel it, my intuition has greatly increased over the past couple of years, I'm just really good at reading people), the words almost left her lips this evening about what she had done, you could tell in her breathing, the way she was talking, her body language, etc.
More to come soon,
hope y'all are doing good! ;-)
Rob, you came to my thread early in my sitch and I want to thank you for your input now, thank you. If I can give you some of my own input I will say, I think you are right. Your wife seems to be working up the courage to tell you the truth. She may do it tomorrow or it may take her a week of talking every night so dont push her away now. Keep doing what you did and I think the truth will come.
(((Rob)))
I don't ever recall posting to you nor you to me...
I have seen your advice and wisdom around the boards and I have admired from afar because well you kinda scare me.
You are doing a fantastic job and I had to break my little fear of you to come and tell you...
Wishing you nothing but peace and happiness.
Darn robx- what a thread, maybe you should be = professor robx
Well you know what i think of you.
I'm definately a "need to knower".
Appreciate your help.
(((Rob)))
I don't ever recall posting to you nor you to me...
I have seen your advice and wisdom around the boards and I have admired from afar because well you kinda scare me.
You are doing a fantastic job and I had to break my little fear of you to come and tell you...
Wishing you nothing but peace and happiness.
It's true, I am the "forum prick"!
LOL!
Serenity you have nothing to be afraid of when it comes to me.
Thank you for the kind words ;-)
It's true, I am the "forum prick"!
WHY YOU KEEP SAYING THAT?
It's true, I am the "forum prick"!
WHY YOU KEEP SAYING THAT?
Yeah Rob, why?
If you desperately want a title choose a less self-deprecating one like, "WAW sledgehammer"
It's true, I am the "forum prick"!
WHY YOU KEEP SAYING THAT?
Yeah Rob, why?
If you desperately want a title choose a less self-deprecating one like, "WAW sledgehammer"
I pissed off a couple of women on Tristan's thread several month's ago (I seriously still don't really know why, difference of opinion) to the point where they had threatened to leave the db forums because of my "attitude" LOL!
Which is funny because I was previously always known for being a "nice guy" ;-)
It's true, I am the "forum prick"!
WHY YOU KEEP SAYING THAT?
Yeah Rob, why?
If you desperately want a title choose a less self-deprecating one like, "WAW sledgehammer"
Sledgehammer sounds nice but it puts too much pressure on me to perform similarly in bed ;-)
But if I have to, I will!
Darn robx- what a thread, maybe you should be = professor robx
Well you know what i think of you.
I'm definately a "need to knower".
Appreciate your help.
Thanks OB, I'm nowhere near a professor on this stuff,
speak to Coach, Puppy, Steve, Gucci, Sandi and countless others on these forums that have way more experience than I do.
OB your situation was a little similar to my own, that's why I took an interest, hope everything works out for you bro!
Ya know Rob, I was reading your most recent post, and thinking wow the tables have turned...
All the begging, pleading, crying, pushing is probably not the most attractive thing for you..
Think your W needs to pickup and read DB/DR..
I feel bad for her, as a person, no one wants to see someone in that state.
But as we all know that is the consequences for decisions that we make.
Nothing to offer here about where you are going, or what decision you can make, because it seems you are in a healthy place, and will make the best decision for YOU.
From that place, any decision you make will be the right one..
Hi Rob,
Sorry I just saw your thread and read your entire first post. I don't have time to catch up with everything right now, but promise I will. I owe it to you because you have brought me a long way. Like I said, I have only read your first post so I can not say much more.
Happy New Year my friend.
-T
I feel I have a puzzle and I am missing pieces. Not in the center but STILL I WANT IT complete damn it!!
Almost verbatim what I said in MC this morning (without the damn it part). I also added that I am hoping that my desire to complete it dissipates with time. Which I think it may, but only time will tell.
@robx:
"Sledgehammer sounds nice"You could have a
steam train....
Hi Rob. Been reading through some of the other forums and ran across this little nugget on the communications board. For some reason I thought of you.
"Leave the past in the past. Bringing up “old stuff” can leave the blamed one with a sense of “why try” because they know they cannot fix the past. Focus on the present, more viable issue."
Ok Rob, seriously, how'd those kids get so cute? Mom must be a beauty!!
I just saw your alt page.
The DB prick coaches 7 yo's, and looks like he ENJOYS it!
Too cute!
Ok Rob, seriously, how'd those kids get so cute? Mom must be a beauty!!
I just saw your alt page.
The DB prick coaches 7 yo's, and looks like he ENJOYS it!
Too cute!
Love it, "Mom must be a beauty",
yeah she's ok I guess ;-)
mind you most people tell me that the kids look more like me,
I'll just say that they've inherited good genes from both of us which is the truth. Thank you for the compliment, we have been blessed, our children are seriously beautiful, we're very proud parents.
As for the "db prick" enjoying coaching, LOL!
Yes, I enjoyed coaching my daughter's soccer team, my first attempt at coaching youth soccer and I get 15 girls on one team, it was just crazy, too much fun and we kicked ass. We won our division, maybe I was just lucky or maybe, just maybe, a combination of incredible coaching ability along with the unstoppable athletic prowess of 15 seven year old girls on our team had something to do with it.
This year I'll be coaching my son's team because he got jealous that I coached his sister's team LOL!
Life is good!
Hi Rob. Been reading through some of the other forums and ran across this little nugget on the communications board. For some reason I thought of you.
"Leave the past in the past. Bringing up “old stuff” can leave the blamed one with a sense of “why try” because they know they cannot fix the past. Focus on the present, more viable issue."
I hear you Bart, I do think about this often, I've wrestled with this in my head but I want to know what happened and who it happened with regardless of our outcome.
Yep, that works, but this is more of
the kind of thing that comes to mind when I think of The SledgeHammer.
Hi Rob,
I didn't realize that it was my thread that gave you your reputation. I wish I could give you some advice, but I really don't have much to add. I really liked Gucci's post and I think your W really wants to work things out; she just really doesn't know how.
I watched "An Emotional Life" these past few nights (a mini-series on PBS). I would suggest it for anyone on this forum. Anyway, they mentioned how adaptable the human brain is, that it can physically change to handle just about any situation. However, the adaptation only occurs as a last resort. It does not begin until there is no other way out of the crisis. I think that is what Gucci was getting at. She must change, and humans tend to change only when there is no other way out. But think carefully before giving up on her completely. I read (and don't remember where) that most divorced couple's say, in retrospect, that they wished they would have worked harder on their marriage.
I wish you the best and will be hoping that your W opens up to you. That, at least, will give your marriage a fighting chance.
-T
I was curious when I just saw your thread; I haven't been here much lately. I admit, I only read this last post of yours but I'm curious, why did you barrel past the following?
And then she mentioned that she's been going to personal counselling for her issues and she wants me to come there, I asked why, she said it would be easier to tell me things in that environment.
Why not go in where she feels safe being honest with you if that is really what you want?
You do come off as sooo paternal and self-righteous. If I were her I'd want some hope of equanimity before I even considered moving further but I get where you're at. You have the upper hand and you know your bottom line.
I'm interested to see your response.
I was curious when I just saw your thread; I haven't been here much lately. I admit, I only read this last post of yours but I'm curious, why did you barrel past the following?
And then she mentioned that she's been going to personal counselling for her issues and she wants me to come there, I asked why, she said it would be easier to tell me things in that environment.
Why not go in where she feels safe being honest with you if that is really what you want?
You do come off as sooo paternal and self-righteous. If I were her I'd want some hope of equanimity before I even considered moving further but I get where you're at. You have the upper hand and you know your bottom line.
I'm interested to see your response.
Hey AAK, thanks for dropping by.
I possibly forgot to add a comment to that post when I made it,
I did agree to go to a few of her sessions, I told her to give me some notice ahead of time so that I could schedule the time off work to make the appointments and she was pretty happy that I agreed. I agree with you AAK, I can sense that she needs that environment to open up and reveal the truth about what happened.
I'm not a totally insensitive brute, just 98.9% insensitive, the remaining amount of me is just uber sensitive ;-)
"..You do come off as sooo paternal and self-righteous."I wasn't like this originally, in fact I was actually quite the opposite. I was the doormat, the wuss, the one who never rocked the boat, the person with low value, low self-esteem, never took care of himself, worried about everyone else hoping that someone would turn around and take care of me and then complained internally to myself "what about me?", I had no self-respect, I let people take advantage of me and use me even when I didn't like it, I still allowed it, I couldn't say NO and since I couldn't respect myself, how could others respect me?
So yeah,
I went from one extreme to the other,
I will add that I only experienced positive results in my situation when I did this though, I became opposite of who I was originally: instead of weak and ineffectual, I became strong, confident (sometimes arrogant) but I think sometimes you have to experience both extremes before you finally find that balance of where you really need to be. For what it's worth, it has served me well - I'm much happier with the person I am now vs. the person I was several years ago, this transformation was a requirement regardless of the outcome of my marital relationship.
And yes I can tell she's searching for hope with me, that she won't be hated forever and I won't hold it against her forever once she reveals these "secrets".
Hope that satisfied your curiousity on this.
"Hey Rob. I have been thinking about your situation and I wish I had a big band-aid to make your boo-boo all better and one of those feel good all over blankies you could wrap around yourself, cause everything is going to be OK.
But I dont, so I baked you some cookies and grandma wants to give you a kissy kissy and make it all better, cause you are a good man and everything is going to be OK.
You are smart and I am sure you know, but just to reiterate, give them space and time and everything is going to be OK.
Remember its all about them and believe only half of what they say and none of what they do or is it none of what they say and half of what they do. Oh, damn just rub their feet and everything is going to be OK."
Can I pull that attitude off or is just not me?
Maybe you can pay for their trips to Europe with the OM while your at it.
LOL- I'm loving this-
SMQ- I've only been privy to a few of your posts- but you seem to have this s*&t down.
ROBX- your change in demeanor is something I'd be interested in- what did you use to accomplish this (resources) or was it just sheer motivation, anger and some guidance?
Thanks
Hi Rob,
I didn't realize that it was my thread that gave you your reputation. I wish I could give you some advice, but I really don't have much to add. I really liked Gucci's post and I think your W really wants to work things out; she just really doesn't know how.
I watched "An Emotional Life" these past few nights (a mini-series on PBS). I would suggest it for anyone on this forum. Anyway, they mentioned how adaptable the human brain is, that it can physically change to handle just about any situation. However, the adaptation only occurs as a last resort. It does not begin until there is no other way out of the crisis. I think that is what Gucci was getting at. She must change, and humans tend to change only when there is no other way out. But think carefully before giving up on her completely. I read (and don't remember where) that most divorced couple's say, in retrospect, that they wished they would have worked harder on their marriage.
I wish you the best and will be hoping that your W opens up to you. That, at least, will give your marriage a fighting chance.
-T
Tristan no worries about the reputation, it's all good, I never took it personally. I especially enjoyed commenting on your thread because of a few similarities I saw between you & myself and I'm glad to hear things are moving in a positive direction with you.
That program that you watched about the human brain and how it's able to change & adapt to situations but like we've mentioned it on this forum a million times, people only change when they have to, unless they're forced to, unless they are presented with a fear of loss - with nothing to lose, why would people have to change, why would they want to voluntarily, most people wouldn't - that's just how human beings are made, we're made to adapt to our environments and we then we pretty much settle & exist until something new is presented in our existing environments that we either want to have badly or don't want to lose.
"Hey Rob. I have been thinking about your situation and I wish I had a big band-aid to make your boo-boo all better and one of those feel good all over blankies you could wrap around yourself, cause everything is going to be OK.
But I dont, so I baked you some cookies and grandma wants to give you a kissy kissy and make it all better, cause you are a good man and everything is going to be OK.
You are smart and I am sure you know, but just to reiterate, give them space and time and everything is going to be OK.
Remember its all about them and believe only half of what they say and none of what they do or is it none of what they say and half of what they do. Oh, damn just rub their feet and everything is going to be OK."
Can I pull that attitude off or is just not me?
Love it!
Steve, you are "my brutha from anutha mutha!"
- would you like a platonic foot rub LOL!
Maybe you can pay for their trips to Europe with the OM while your at it.
Can I quote you on this, this is excellent, I'm going to offer this option right now!
;-)
You see, we have a good sense of humor, it's not just about being a prick LOL!
LOL- I'm loving this-
SMQ- I've only been privy to a few of your posts- but you seem to have this s*&t down.
ROBX- your change in demeanor is something I'd be interested in- what did you use to accomplish this (resources) or was it just sheer motivation, anger and some guidance?
Thanks
I can't speak for anyone else but several months into the beginning of my situation while I was kissing her ass, watching the kids while she went out in the evenings to have fun with her friends and "find herself" and supplicating my wife with gifts, restaurant dinners and great attitude and behavior while she pretty much treated me like $hit, a switch finally flipped in my head (and no I'm not a robot) that said
"I'm never going to be good enough for her regardless of what I do and I'm sick of the way she treats me, I'M DONE!"
That was it.
I moved in the opposite direction.
Stopped with the gift giving, stopped being a wuss, started standing up for myself and standing up to her. It shocked her, she became angry, violent, tried to regain her position of power with me but I had enough and wouldn't take this crap anymore, no marriage is worth sacrificing your self-respect, your self-esteem, your spirit, and I knew i was just training my kids to repeat the same horrible mistakes when they eventually grew up and had relationships/marriages of their own and I couldn't face the thought of my children going through this pain. My best friend (who incidentally happens to have a pretty good marriage) gave me a kick in the ass one day, told me he was sick of the way I was being treated by my wife and to stand up for myself, it was disgusting for him to see me disrespected by her the way she had been acting towards me.
Sometimes you need someone to shake you up, wake you up about what you're doing and where you're going.
Long story, short.... the first day I stood up for myself, the energy in my body was incredible, it was similar to being electrocuted I think, being so afraid to stand up for myself against her and then doing it for the first time was crazy. It was the day I told her I was moving back home to be with my kids and I told her I wanted her to move out, I didn't care anymore. A huge argument followed but I stood my ground and I limited her responses, i told her that this was my decision and no one was going to change my mind.
Actually, this may explain the schizophrenic split -- sometimes you came off like a jackass, sometimes you came off like a wise man. (wink)
It's hell to get that self-care and assertiveness calibrated properly, innit?
Kett, too often in bitch mode on that same good and necessary journey .....
Long story, short.... the first day I stood up for myself, the energy in my body was incredible, it was similar to being electrocuted I think, being so afraid to stand up for myself against her and then doing it for the first time was crazy.
I felt this on monday night. A true standing up for myself. Thanks for putting it into words.
I will admit though Rob. I would not do all the things you have done afterwards.
But I am glad you are going to put a stop to the limbo. It is not fair for her, as it was not fair for you.
Perpetual Punishment Machine (PPM) needs to be put away.
Good on you for recognizing this and finally starting to deal with this issue.
LOL- I'm loving this-
SMQ- I've only been privy to a few of your posts- but you seem to have this s*&t down.
ROBX- your change in demeanor is something I'd be interested in- what did you use to accomplish this (resources) or was it just sheer motivation, anger and some guidance?
Thanks
I can't speak for anyone else but several months into the beginning of my situation while I was kissing her ass, watching the kids while she went out in the evenings to have fun with her friends and "find herself" and supplicating my wife with gifts, restaurant dinners and great attitude and behavior while she pretty much treated me like $hit, a switch finally flipped in my head (and no I'm not a robot) that said
"I'm never going to be good enough for her regardless of what I do and I'm sick of the way she treats me, I'M DONE!"
That was it.
I moved in the opposite direction.
Stopped with the gift giving, stopped being a wuss, started standing up for myself and standing up to her. It shocked her, she became angry, violent, tried to regain her position of power with me but I had enough and wouldn't take this crap anymore, no marriage is worth sacrificing your self-respect, your self-esteem, your spirit, and I knew i was just training my kids to repeat the same horrible mistakes when they eventually grew up and had relationships/marriages of their own and I couldn't face the thought of my children going through this pain. My best friend (who incidentally happens to have a pretty good marriage) gave me a kick in the ass one day, told me he was sick of the way I was being treated by my wife and to stand up for myself, it was disgusting for him to see me disrespected by her the way she had been acting towards me.
Sometimes you need someone to shake you up, wake you up about what you're doing and where you're going.
Long story, short.... the first day I stood up for myself, the energy in my body was incredible, it was similar to being electrocuted I think, being so afraid to stand up for myself against her and then doing it for the first time was crazy. It was the day I told her I was moving back home to be with my kids and I told her I wanted her to move out, I didn't care anymore. A huge argument followed but I stood my ground and I limited her responses, i told her that this was my decision and no one was going to change my mind.
and one day I wanna be like YOU!
(((Rob)))
I would never use the term "forum prick"...
You have just always been so very straight-forward and since I have been coached by Puppy, it was a good way to approach things though scary for me...
Your advice though - Spot-on...
I am happy to see things turn out the way you want them and wish you nothing but the best.
(((Rob)))
I would never use the term "forum prick"...
You have just always been so very straight-forward and since I have been coached by Puppy, it was a good way to approach things though scary for me...
Your advice though - Spot-on...
I am happy to see things turn out the way you want them and wish you nothing but the best.
Serenity, you are too sweet ;-)
You know what would be an awesome 180 for you,
acknowledging that fear although very scary, isn't going to kill you. A scary situation comes up, you acknowledge that its scary but you still push yourself forward and through it, you'll notice that you will be capable of accomplishing so much in your life when you start doing this more frequently.
As for having Puppy as a teacher, he is pretty awesome, I'd consider him "top shelf" around these parts too, I've learned alot from him, you keep listening to him, you'll do alright ;-)
(((Rob)))
You know what would be an awesome 180 for you,
acknowledging that fear although very scary, isn't going to kill you. A scary situation comes up, you acknowledge that its scary but you still push yourself forward and through it, you'll notice that you will be capable of accomplishing so much in your life when you start doing this more frequently.
So easy to look at, so hard to do however I am trying, I am doing and I am so much further along then when I first joined...
As for having Puppy as a teacher, he is pretty awesome, I'd consider him "top shelf" around these parts too, I've learned alot from him, you keep listening to him, you'll do alright
I agree 100% and I wouldn't do anything that involves my sitch without feeling him (or Coach more recently) out first with my response.
"Hey Rob. I have been thinking about your situation and I wish I had a big band-aid to make your boo-boo all better and one of those feel good all over blankies you could wrap around yourself, cause everything is going to be OK.
But I dont, so I baked you some cookies and grandma wants to give you a kissy kissy and make it all better, cause you are a good man and everything is going to be OK.
You are smart and I am sure you know, but just to reiterate, give them space and time and everything is going to be OK.
Remember its all about them and believe only half of what they say and none of what they do or is it none of what they say and half of what they do. Oh, damn just rub their feet and everything is going to be OK."
Can I pull that attitude off or is just not me?
Love it!
Steve, you are "my brutha from anutha mutha!"
- would you like a platonic foot rub LOL!
oh. truthfully, i'd only break your heart.
hey just in case. section 102. aisle 5. pink maple leaf jersey.
if you were telling the truth, I would love to talk to you again.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Robx,
I just read your sitch, and I see many, many similarities in my own. I have gleaned some important things from you.
I want to thank you for opening my eyes a little further than I was ready to open them, for taking me out of my "comfort" zone as it were.
I too, suffer/suffered from the same issues, low self-esteem, putting up with the constant deceit, lies, stretching of thruths, no respect for myself.
I didn't BELIEVE that I deserved better. You have made me rethink this.
After reading your post, I am starting to see things in a different light, and understand that I DON'T HAVE TO ACCEPT those things in my life.
Thank you for sharing.
I was curious when I just saw your thread; I haven't been here much lately. I admit, I only read this last post of yours but I'm curious, why did you barrel past the following?
And then she mentioned that she's been going to personal counselling for her issues and she wants me to come there, I asked why, she said it would be easier to tell me things in that environment.
Why not go in where she feels safe being honest with you if that is really what you want?
You do come off as sooo paternal and self-righteous. If I were her I'd want some hope of equanimity before I even considered moving further but I get where you're at. You have the upper hand and you know your bottom line.
I'm interested to see your response.
Hey AAK, thanks for dropping by.
I possibly forgot to add a comment to that post when I made it,
I did agree to go to a few of her sessions, I told her to give me some notice ahead of time so that I could schedule the time off work to make the appointments and she was pretty happy that I agreed. I agree with you AAK, I can sense that she needs that environment to open up and reveal the truth about what happened.
I'm not a totally insensitive brute, just 98.9% insensitive, the remaining amount of me is just uber sensitive ;-)
"..You do come off as sooo paternal and self-righteous."I wasn't like this originally, in fact I was actually quite the opposite. I was the doormat, the wuss, the one who never rocked the boat, the person with low value, low self-esteem, never took care of himself, worried about everyone else hoping that someone would turn around and take care of me and then complained internally to myself "what about me?", I had no self-respect, I let people take advantage of me and use me even when I didn't like it, I still allowed it, I couldn't say NO and since I couldn't respect myself, how could others respect me?
So yeah,
I went from one extreme to the other,
I will add that I only experienced positive results in my situation when I did this though, I became opposite of who I was originally: instead of weak and ineffectual, I became strong, confident (sometimes arrogant) but I think sometimes you have to experience both extremes before you finally find that balance of where you really need to be. For what it's worth, it has served me well - I'm much happier with the person I am now vs. the person I was several years ago, this transformation was a requirement regardless of the outcome of my marital relationship.
And yes I can tell she's searching for hope with me, that she won't be hated forever and I won't hold it against her forever once she reveals these "secrets".
Hope that satisfied your curiousity on this.
Hey Rob. Yeah, in truth, that is what I figured was happening. I think you're awesome, honest, wise...right on the money for the most part.
I also think that you either walk away completely or work toward the balance you refer to. You've changed. You have nothing to prove. It doesn't even serve you anymore to wield the power you have with her, it's actually too easy now in a way...if that makes sense.
You are obviously aware that a healthy relationship would require a balance of power. I think you are cognizant enough to know if and when that's possible with your W.
So what's up with Robx lately? I have been checked out for a while, but don't see an update on where things are for ya..
Robx,
Sorry for the hijack of your thread, but I have read a lot of your advice that you have given to others. I would love your advice on my stitch, it would be greatly appreciated. See my link below
my stitch
Robx,
I've been lurking but not posting for a while.
However, I have a question/favor to ask:
When you get a chance, would you read two posts over at my new home at Surviving The Big D (Soaring Solo 2010)?
Sunday, 1/17 @ 8:13
Today, Saturday, 1/23 @3:32
(I don't know how to link them or I would)
I've only asked a couple of others - all women I respect.
Need a man's respected point of view, too.
Specifically, Am I seeing a glimmer of remorse in these two?
Or just more typical WASness?
Thanks.
OMG this is an awsome thread.
Robx and Cutter are now my official role models.
Had to come out of lurking to say that.
I have my own thread but after reading theirs I pretty much look and feel like a pantywaist. OTOH this is only my fist month in my stitch. Luckily I dont think there is an OP that I can find but I have my suspicions.
Either way, Robx and Cutter are my heros. They motivate me.
I hope Robx keeps posting. I am glued to his and Cutters thread and read them every morning and night (is that healthy?). Helps me do deal with my own problems although (thankfully) pale in comparisson to theirs AFAIK.
Robx's thread should be tagged as what to do after you get your nuttz back.
Please do not call me a hero. I tried and failed to save my marriage. Saved a friends though. I am proud of that. And I am saving another friends marriage as well. Proud of that as well.
The only hero here is Michelle. The rest of us are just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl. Year after year.....
She came over tonight for a bit after I put the kids to bed.
She hasn't admitted anything,
she looks very scared and she was crying quite a bit.
"No matter what i do from now on, it won't be good enough"
"You're going to be angry with me"
"You'll never forgive me"
"I wasn't well before, I'm better now"
And then she mentioned that she's been going to personal counselling for her issues and she wants me to come there, I asked why, she said it would be easier to tell me things in that environment.
I just repeated the same things to her:
- I won't live without honesty in my life,
- I won't be with someone who lies and is deceitful and hides things from me
- I won't be with her just because of the kids, my life is too valuable to waste in a loveless relationship
- I am happy as is (and she knows it), joint custody works for me, I have no problems taking care of my kids and I could do this indefinitely
She talked about us, she mentioned that she wants her family back, she wants me back, she loves me, etc.
I told her that all those things are good things but I would only decide to be with her after she's been completely honest with me, regardless of how scary it is, I want to know what happened.
I told her that she doesn't have to tell me, she can keep her secrets but she has 0% chance of being with me if that's what she chooses.
I also told her that I won't guarantee that I would decide to take her back even if she admits what she has done and with who, she can't expect to tell me everything and just expect that I forgive her for what she's done and take her back. I told her that I could learn to forgive her in time but that was my decision to do so and it was also my decision if I wanted to be with her or not. If she would only admit to me what she has done on the condition that I take her back that she was still attempting to control me. When she lied to me in the past, it was her controlling me, that's what happens when people lie to other people, they are attempting to control the other person's reaction - when you're honest with someone, it can be scary but you have no control of the outcome other than the fact that you were honest.
She cried for a bit, and I held her because she needed it, it was the kind of sobbing that makes a person's body tremble uncontrollably. (trust me, been there, done that) I'm not an ass, regardless of my decision in the end with her, I wouldn't let anyone regardless of what they did to me, disintegrate with that kind of emotion & fear in their body. She's holding on to alot of pain, anxiety, fear, etc.
She thanked me for listening before leaving our home, I told her to drive safe and to get some rest because she has an early morning shift at work tomorrow and that was that. She asked if we could talk again tomorrow, told her to call me tomorrow and I'd let her know if I was available in the evening or not.
I handled it well,
I'm actually feeling really good about all of this,
I wasn't an ass, I validated her feelings while we talked because I really did listen but I also made my stance clear on all of this and I feel good about that.
I've never seen anyone so sad & afraid to lose someone as i did tonight.
The floodgates on all of this will soon open,
you can feel it (well I can feel it, my intuition has greatly increased over the past couple of years, I'm just really good at reading people), the words almost left her lips this evening about what she had done, you could tell in her breathing, the way she was talking, her body language, etc.
More to come soon,
hope y'all are doing good! ;-)
Rob,
Sorry so late to the party here, but this needed to be put on record:
"That, ladies and gentlemen, is how it's DONE."
Puppy
Rob - how is everything going?
Cutter, I called you that because you kept your dignity, composure and pride as a man while going through hell. Most of us do not even come close to that yet. You are a roll model here whether you know it or not.
And Robx is a great example of what we should have done right from the start and that is why I agree with Puppy that Robx is also a good role model. That's how it's done! Great thread for newbies like me.
Dont underestimate how many people you help with your insights and experiences.
Thank you very much for the compliment. Keep your chin up.
He's in control, in fact so much control that he doesn't care what you do or say, he knows that you aren't going anywhere and when someone has that much power in a relationship, they will abuse their partners: mentally, emotionally, verbally, physically, financially, etc. etc. etc.
When people enjoy this much power in a relationship they will treat their spouses poorly. Luvless, you don't respect yourself enough and believe in your value enough and he takes you for granted.
Rob, You posted this on luvless's thread. I agree with what you are saying and understand how and why it happens. I have seen it here when there is a shift in power. Please take this in the spirit in which it is given but I see this in your relationship right now. You hold the power and control. No critique or advice just my observation.
Cheers
Rob, I'm curious to see how things are today- I appreciate you stopping in on my thread, and I have followed your posts today in other threads, lots of good stuff, very APPLICABLE in every sitch.
He's in control, in fact so much control that he doesn't care what you do or say, he knows that you aren't going anywhere and when someone has that much power in a relationship, they will abuse their partners: mentally, emotionally, verbally, physically, financially, etc. etc. etc.
When people enjoy this much power in a relationship they will treat their spouses poorly. Luvless, you don't respect yourself enough and believe in your value enough and he takes you for granted.
Rob, You posted this on luvless's thread. I agree with what you are saying and understand how and why it happens. I have seen it here when there is a shift in power. Please take this in the spirit in which it is given but I see this in your relationship right now. You hold the power and control. No critique or advice just my observation.
Cheers
Sorry guys I missed all of this, I was replying to a few hot threads the other day and this thread of mine doesn't get alot of activity, by the time there's an update, it's buried under all of the other thread action.
Coach your points are valid,
but I'm not abusive to my wife,
I'm not using her, being cruel or mean to her, just indifferent and I think for the time being, it has to be this way and not for a short period of time. Throughout the bulk of our relationship she knew how much I deeply loved her, I was the guy that placed her on that pedestal and attributed so much value to her and so little value to myself. I can see in her phone calls that she tests to see if I want to add something else to the conversation or tell her my feelings or something to that effect, "is that it? is there anything else?" and I just reply "nope that's it, I'm busy right now, have to get back to work, talk to you later, bye..."
And she feels it, I'm pulling away and she continues to pursue and it was that way when it was the other way around, she pulled away and I pursued. I have to let her pursue, in fact she gets something out of this, reading alot of Gucci's posts, she wants to pursue, that's how it was during her affair, she pursued the other guy and he gave her very little time after he had gotten what he wanted.
I still haven't gone to her counselling session yet but I agreed to go. Work has been busy lately (actually it always is busy) and I have a week long trip coming up and she herself ended up picking up extra shifts to make more money and they are during odd hours so it's been difficult for her to continue going but she does mention how much she enjoys talking to a professional about her issues and I tell her it's a good thing and that I'm glad she's getting help. She asked if we could pencil in an appointment after I get back from my trip and I agreed, told her it might be a good thing because the counsellor may have tips on how to improve our communications when it comes to our kids, etc. and she keeps adding "it would also be good for us to, don't you agree, I know I miss talking to you about things", etc.
So coach I'm not being a prick to her, I'm just maintaining my distance and allowing her to pursue and she is pursuing, she calls often and frequently and most of the time apologizes for calling so much, sometimes the calls last a minute "I'm sorry for bothering you, just wanted to see how's work at your end".
She needs to pursue, she attributes more value to me when she pursues, and technically that's human nature: we attribute more value in things we invest more time, energy & effort in and she's doing that, I can see & feel that. With a WAW where you finally switch the dynamic around and stop pursuing and start moving on, that's what they need, they were pursuing the OM and you were pursuing her, you remove yourself as an option, you're too valuable for that nonsense, you let her go and that messes up the ideas they have in their head with how things should be going.
I know I'm on the right path, she asked to go with me when I was bringing the kids to sunday school. I was going to leave as I usually do (mass starts after sunday school so I usually grab a coffee and the paper and come back to get the kids and attend mass with them after school is done) and we stayed in the church basement where they serve coffee, sat down with some other parents who are also friends and enjoyed some conversation and she started talking about how hard it is to keep a marriage going but the effort is worth it and then she said that in our situation, she admits that she never made me a priority and that it's so important for spouses to be priorities in each other's lives, etc. Seriously these words would have never left her lips years ago, she wouldn't have cared. And then during her "speech" she mentioned that her friend who separated from her husband had recently reconciled with him and she was so happy for them, basically the conversation went like this for an hour where she was basically championing the cause of marital reconciliation, spouses should date, etc.
I'm on the right path,
slow is fast in these situations and I will continue to focus on reality and what works. Maintain my distance, allow her to pursue and make effort and I see no reason to stop, I know it didn't work when I pursued her and she is genuinely happier doing this than I've seen in a long time.
FWIW I look and feel fantastic, the gym, the improved diet, the new clothes and just my attitude of being awesome is infectious with those around me at work or in my personal life, people who haven't seen me in a while come up to me and say "WOW Rob you look awesome!!!" because it's a 180 from the slob I used to be (I look and feel 10 years younger than I am, people are literally amazed) and I'm enjoying life right now quite a bit and ultimately isn't that life's best reward?
You are one true success story here Rob - seriously. Whether or not your divorce is busted 100% - look at where you've come from? I'm encouraged!
You are one true success story here Rob - seriously. Whether or not your divorce is busted 100% - look at where you've come from? I'm encouraged!
I wholeheartedly ditto luv!
Sounds like it. That post has a different tone than some of your other ones concerning your wife. I am glad for you. Keep handling it.
Cheers
Sounds like it. That post has a different tone than some of your other ones concerning your wife. I am glad for you. Keep handling it.
Cheers
I know what you're picking up, Coach, and I see some of the same things too, but I think Rob tailors his advice for others based on where they are in their path. Just as a caricaturist exaggerates features to make a point, I think with people who are struggling, sometimes you have to OVER-emphasize a stance in order to get people's attention. I know I do.
Also, I try to provide what's MISSING in the other advice they're getting. And what's usually missing, as you know, is the "tough" part of the "tough love" equation.
Puppy
Sounds like it. That post has a different tone than some of your other ones concerning your wife. I am glad for you. Keep handling it.
Cheers
I know what you're picking up, Coach, and I see some of the same things too, but I think Rob tailors his advice for others based on where they are in their path. Just as a caricaturist exaggerates features to make a point, I think with people who are struggling, sometimes you have to OVER-emphasize a stance in order to get people's attention. I know I do.
Also, I try to provide what's MISSING in the other advice they're getting. And what's usually missing, as you know, is the "tough" part of the "tough love" equation.
Puppy
Maybe I am over enthusiastic in some posts & responses but I think Puppy has the idea and generally speaking you usually never get more than what you ask for so you might as well ask for more, if you get it that's great, if you got close to what you were asking for, if you asked for more originally, it's probably what you wanted to get in the end anyways, if that makes sense.
I'm not guarded either, it's not like I'm walking around with my defenses up.
My life is great and you know what, with or without my wife it will be great, living your life just for your spouse ends with you being left behind and with no life and then you're all confused, "what do I do now?" "where do I go from here?" instead of "you know what, it's ok, things are going to be fine, it's unfortunate that things worked out like this but you know, it's not the end of the world, in fact, it's a new beginning"
Fear of loss/crisis motivates people to change.
If you instill that fear of loss and your wayward spouse doesn't come back, you still have your answer instead of waiting years & years in limbo for a change.
Read BOT's thread to see what ass kissing and not being firm, confident and masculine gets you: a WAW that goes back & forth between you and the OM and boy that's a confidence booster if I ever saw one. As much as I've busted his rump recently for his crap behavior and not handling it properly, I'm impressed with the fact that he has held on for so long, seriously how many of us can say that they can stick around and be a punching bag and take that kind of punishment for such a long time? Now if only he could see that he's a strong guy underneath that wuss exterior that he hides behind and use that strength to turn his situation around, he would be in a great place too.
Hello Rob,
I don't have near the experience as some of the DB'ers on here. I compared my well being, and that of my children in a then and now sense. In the end, this is what i have learned...
Appreciate what you have. You sound like you are doing well on your own, but trust your instincts. Ill never doubt mine again.
In my case, my current situation was better, i've dated some which was hard since i have my daughter 99% of the time. I hit a moment like yours just recently where i caught myself wondering, what if.... Then she reminded me how much she liked to yell and carry on.
There is my advice, trust yourself and your decisions. Everyone here could say do this or do that but unless its what you actually want you wont listen.
anyway i have a tendency to carry on so ill zip it at that. If you love her, go for it. If you love her but are done with the crap, maybe a little more tentative "dating", if You love her but have no more fight for the marriage then, there you are.
the key thing is, you love her. Just dont base everything on that.
ok SHH MLB
Rob. I'm in the middle of some of your advice... Getting a pedicure. Just tanned! My God! I look 10 lbs thinner!
You sound good!
Rob,
I truly love reading your stuff..
I am in the early stages, and really listen to what you have told me so far.. Going dark it tough, and I hope that the message gets heard in her head and then she does the pursuing..
Rob. I'm in the middle of some of your advice... Getting a pedicure. Just tanned! My God! I look 10 lbs thinner!
You sound good!
Never mind me, check out how you ended that reply:
"...My God! I look 10 lbs thinner! "That to me sounds like someone who is experiencing a self-esteem boost and that is definitely a step in the right direction: you feel good and guess who made you feel good? YOU! And that's what it takes. Internal validation. Nothing wrong with some external validation (Lord knows I enjoy it) but internal validation is where it's at, it gives you that world beater attitude, the kind of confidence that is very charismatic and it's very attractive. Keep it up!!!
Rob,
I truly love reading your stuff..
I am in the early stages, and really listen to what you have told me so far.. Going dark it tough, and I hope that the message gets heard in her head and then she does the pursuing..
Yes it's tough in the early stages because you still are only grasping part of the message, you don't have to hope that the message gets heard by her, in fact, that hope is translated into body language on your part and people can read that and feel that, regardless of what words are spoken or unspoken.
You don't care if the message gets through to her, you start living your life for you again and moving on and letting go of her - when you do this for real, that's when things happen.
Wanting something badly - translates to not having something and it makes you feel bad and that translates into needy and insecure: both horribly unattractive traits, attraction killers.
You don't want it badly anymore.
If you can have it, great but it isn't a deal breaker anymore, not living your life regardless of this situation is the deal breaker - don't waste your life waiting for someone to change and turn around and come back to you, that's you communicating that you don't respect yourself and your precious life and that's not attractive.
Seriously, I wish I had you in my back pocket to remind me what I need to do!!.... lol...
I read through your thread and what you have gone through.. You are an inspiration, and I am learning from you..
I thankyou for those tips. Its truly a behaviour thing that I must change within me.
I appreciate the direct thoughts.
I am soooooooo glad for this site.. thank you..
I am cheering you on with your R....
Man o man, this thread is just goldmine that doesn't run out.
Robx, I can say that I have followed a lot of your posts, and wished I could have gotten to the point I am at now 4 months ago. Following your (And other's) advice, I may not have wound up in the place I am now.
Not saying I am not doing ok currently, but mayhap could have busted my D rather than being in the process now.
Anyone on here that is newer to this, or needs advice, or what to look at, etc should keep your posts around for reference.
Darn good advice, and it's nice to see someone who is doing so well for himself, not necessarily for his MR!
Rob,
Ok, just took a shower, and am snuggling in for the night. I have a problem w/this cozy setting. Now, I'm sunburned! LoL Guess certain parts didn't get any sun exposure last summer!
Seriously, again, thanks. It feels great to worry about me for a change.
RobX,
I have not posted to you before but was struck by what you wrote on BOT's thread and the advice you've been giving him.
You mate, are an inspiration to all of us men on this board and an example. Thank you so much for the input you have given us over the last couple of years.
This is why:
I would dare say that 2009 was one of the best years ever regardless of my current situation.
And even more so, this:
I've almost considered setting up a website and writing a book on the stuff that I know that actually produces results.
That is what DBing, in the truest sense is about.
Doing what works.Unfortunately for men and I would include myself in this at times, we are far too chickens*** sometimes to hold our nuts and
do what we must do.
I just love this:
Without honesty there is nothing and my life is too good right now to go back into a relationship/marriage that is filled with lies.
and this:
But I can't allow lies & dishonesty back in my life, after purging that filth from my life I can pretty much guarantee you and anyone else that I won't live with that anymore and I don't want to be anyone that doesn't value me or the relationship they have with me.
Please keep posting to us RobX. You're welcome over at my thread if you have the time but I will continue to follow this one.
best,
GH31
Thank you Rob for posting/sharing here! I was directed to both of your threads by Gnosis. I have spent about 3 hrs (I think-haha) reading through them. I would love to be where you are at in reclaiming my raisins and see a great source in your posts of how to do so. I envy the way you have turned around your plight, and I hope it is not too late for me to do the same.
Do that, and you'll be at LEAST a half-gallon in no time!
Puppy
Hey Rob,
Just popping by to say thanks again for your recent advice to me in the alt. I have been pondering it the last few days and between you and Gno I can feel a huge shift happening for me. I, for one, am glad that you "over-emphasize" points at times, because I know it sure got my attention and made me think long and hard about myself and my choices. And, besides... we know you're just an ol' softie on the inside...
LOL
Ssssshhhh!!!!!
Were all part of The MarshMellow Syndicate.
Heehee... you three (Rob, Puppy, Cutter)... just happen to be three of my favorite marshmallows... even when you are sometimes pretty crispy on the outside...LOL
RobX I can't believe I have read this entire thread.
You're my hero m8. Thanks for reading, writing and being here.
Heehee... you three (Rob, Puppy, Cutter)... just happen to be three of my favorite marshmallows... even when you are sometimes pretty crispy on the outside...LOL
Cool! It's good to know I'm toast!
Oh GNO! Don't worry... you're in the club too!
I've sat and read this for the last few hours, and doggone it I wanna hear some UPdates?
My W "only" had a pa on her first outing 15 years ago. The last 2 she's gone solo, but not only is she a WAW, but seems to have an MLC working and a PMBF, along withe perhaps a BPD going.
I'm not sure how she'd take any of this boundary talk, cuz connecting the dots is not what these folks do very well.
She's picked up, packed up and filed for a D and then gets upset if I don't call. Illogical, irrational, insane behavior. Now that she's moved again, 200 miles away, she calls every night. WTH?
But I do know I am ready to get off the carousal. I don't know whether to try and find my nads or to let this ride until the D is done and then go...what's after dark?
I know for the WAS in the middle/end of MLC it may be different, but for the LBS it is still very much the same!
Carry on Rob! I'd be interested in an update.
hmm reading this thread gives me some insight
quick update as I just noticed someone updated this thread:
- my wife is in counseling for herself,
- I won't go to marriage counseling until I see some real improvements on her end, there are some improvements but they're slow
- we go on dates occasionally but not too often and I let her know that she shouldn't read anything into them
- I don't want her back home yet, I won't settle for less than what I want and she knows this
- she has started revealing information about one of her affairs, the lesser of the two "evils", she is still holding back info on the first one
- I'm not forcing her to reveal anything, she is slowly revealing bits and pieces voluntarily
- before I would entertain taking her back, I would want to make sure her changes are real,
- I still continue to work on myself and live a very good life
- I'm cool, calm and very confident
- I'm like that guy from the DOS EQUIS commercials (life really is more fun when you adopt that attitude)
- my wife says that my attitude is really sexy (mind you she says alot of complimentary things lately towards me, another 180) and is always touching me, hugging me, rubbing my shoulders, she tends to make alot of physical contact which is a 180 for her, previously during our marriage this never happened at all
- she is becoming a better mom to our kids and I've noticed this and told her that regularly, again another 180 for her
- she texts me numerous times a day (read that as too many) and it's literally annoying
- she knows I was serious about moving on with my life and not waiting for her anymore and she has literally doubled her efforts to show me she wants to be my wife and wants her family back
- she has tried to "tag" me with sex numerous times just like back in the old days because it worked back then and now I recognize her attempts and tests and I just smile and acknowledge what she's trying to do and let her know that if I wanted just sex, I could have "just sex" with anyone and she knows it
there are so many things I could say but in the end,
crisis & fear of loss motivates people to action,
it's a little sad that this is usually the only thing that motivates people to move to action but when you accept reality for what it is, you have to accept human nature for what it is and when you can just accept it instead of trying to rationalize it with your morals and ethics, you will find just as I have found in my own situation that fighting reality moves you backwards, not forwards so just accept reality and use it, reality works because it's reality and everything else isn't
stay thirsty my friends ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U18VkI0uDxE
Rob! An update!!!
First of all, many thanks to YOU for all of your knowledge, wisdom and sharing...
Secondly, congrats on helping W to become the mom your kids need. I remember reading about your efforts to get her to step up and be a mom.
No more tagging, huh? LOL Dang... thought we'd get some good stories!
Lastly, HUGS, my friend!!!
how many situps a day does she do? lol.
stay thirsty my friends ;-)
quick update as I just noticed someone updated this thread:
- my wife is in counseling for herself,
- I won't go to marriage counseling until I see some real improvements on her end, there are some improvements but they're slow
- we go on dates occasionally but not too often and I let her know that she shouldn't read anything into them
- I don't want her back home yet, I won't settle for less than what I want and she knows this
- she has started revealing information about one of her affairs, the lesser of the two "evils", she is still holding back info on the first one
- I'm not forcing her to reveal anything, she is slowly revealing bits and pieces voluntarily
- before I would entertain taking her back, I would want to make sure her changes are real,
- I still continue to work on myself and live a very good life
- I'm cool, calm and very confident
- I'm like that guy from the DOS EQUIS commercials (life really is more fun when you adopt that attitude)
- my wife says that my attitude is really sexy (mind you she says alot of complimentary things lately towards me, another 180) and is always touching me, hugging me, rubbing my shoulders, she tends to make alot of physical contact which is a 180 for her, previously during our marriage this never happened at all
- she is becoming a better mom to our kids and I've noticed this and told her that regularly, again another 180 for her
- she texts me numerous times a day (read that as too many) and it's literally annoying
- she knows I was serious about moving on with my life and not waiting for her anymore and she has literally doubled her efforts to show me she wants to be my wife and wants her family back
- she has tried to "tag" me with sex numerous times just like back in the old days because it worked back then and now I recognize her attempts and tests and I just smile and acknowledge what she's trying to do and let her know that if I wanted just sex, I could have "just sex" with anyone and she knows it
there are so many things I could say but in the end,
crisis & fear of loss motivates people to action,
it's a little sad that this is usually the only thing that motivates people to move to action but when you accept reality for what it is, you have to accept human nature for what it is and when you can just accept it instead of trying to rationalize it with your morals and ethics, you will find just as I have found in my own situation that fighting reality moves you backwards, not forwards so just accept reality and use it, reality works because it's reality and everything else isn't
stay thirsty my friends ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U18VkI0uDxEcongrats rob. what a turn around. I hope to get where you are soon but with patience. I am working on my goals and although I still vent on here i'm trying to stay true to my boundaries.
Now YOU are the "Most Interesting Man in the World"!
robx,
You inspired me to keep detaching and to stop being a doormat. I was about ready revert back to my old self. I know I will never go back to that person after reading your thread.
Thanks and keep up doing what you are doing!
Now YOU are the "Most Interesting Man in the World"!
LOL!
I LOVE those Dos Equis ads, robx -- good for you. Can you think of an equivalent attitude that works for women (ie, impresses and intrigues the opposite sex)? I'm trying very hard to keep my cool in light of my husband asking for a D, leaving the house and, from the circumstantial evidence I've found, having an OW. I think I'm doing pretty well so far, but was never much of a flirt or vamp even when I was younger. Too no-nonsense for that. But what would help from my end?
Any ideas are most welcome!
I'm going to tell you what worked for me,
and what will work for you...
DATING aka SOCIAL INTERACTION with members of the opposite sex.
Nothing says "movin' on" like dating and being with someone new.
I know, you're going to say,
"but I can't do that, I'm married, I vowed to be true to my spouse, I can't resort to doing that, I'll be no better than my spouse, etc. etc." and a thousand other equivalent excuses.
Start going to the gym, start tanning, get a new hairstyle, get some new clothes and shoes, start going with your girlfriends more, if they don't go out, find some new girlfriends that do, drinks at lounges, make yourself look good and all dolled up. Date other men, it doesn't have to be serious, and I'm not asking you to hump the first pair of trousers that you go out on a date with but you need to do it. You need to know that you CAN do it. You need to know you have options, when you know you have options, your confidence will increase and it will be at a place it hasn't been in a very long time, you'll see that it's your husband's loss and you'll move in the opposite direction, instead of pursuing him you'll let go and move on and when he notices that his wife is no longer waiting for him and that she is doing the same thing as he is doing, it will give him a dose of reality. Heck if you haven't already file for separation or divorce. Nothing inspires people to action more than fear of loss & crisis. And if after all of this you get no change out of him, guess what, you have your answer as far your reality is concerned.
Those are my ideas, you are free to do whatever you would like with them.
- Stay thirsty my friend ;-)
Ahem...
Do you really need to actually date other folks to know you can do it?
Seriously, dating other people isn't difficult. Wanting to keep dating them after a while is a whole other ball game... as is wanting to stay married to somebody who keeps messing with you.
I know if my W and I were to actually divorce, I sure would be dating... often and a few concurrently when possible.
But that's a boundary I am not crossing while married.
you know,I went to an accidental dating event through meetup.com. I thought the event was something else based on what was described. But I decided to go along; throughout the mingling a couple of things happened: 1) I was pleased to see that other men were interested in me 2)I realized if I wanted to date, I could 3) I was not ready! But the point is that just by getting out there and seeing points 1 and 2, it really helped me to feel good about myself and start noticing if men were checking me out in my every day life.(I always try to look my best when out and about as well) It has shown me that when I am ready, and if I wanted to, I could find someone else! lol!
Ahem...
Do you really need to actually date other folks to know you can do it?
Seriously, dating other people isn't difficult. Wanting to keep dating them after a while is a whole other ball game... as is wanting to stay married to somebody who keeps messing with you.
I know if my W and I were to actually divorce, I sure would be dating... often and a few concurrently when possible.
But that's a boundary I am not crossing while married.
You ask a good question,
"do you really need to ACTUALLY date other folks to know you can do it?"
My answer... YES.
Knowing something and doing something are two different things and both are going to yield different results. The feeling you will get from actually dating is going to be different from what you assume it will be. A lot of people on these forums with low confidence levels need the confidence boost that is obtained from knowing they have options. Yes it's external validation and I prefer to be internally validated but external validation has it's place as well so don't knock dating.
While I do agree with Rob, for those of you who have a problem with dating while you're still married, you don't have to date to have social interactions with members of the opposite sex.
newmama's group activity is one example. I used to go hang out at a sports bar to watch football. I got lots of male attention being a single woman alone and even moreso when they realized I was really there to watch football and knew what I was talking about! I got to practice flirting and turning the undesirable ones away. My self-esteem got a much needed boost and I knew that BF was not the only fish in the sea and I can still bait a hook, cast a line, and reel them in.
I got lots of attention and several phone numbers. All this from once a week outings for about 2.5 months.
Yes, it's external validation. I even discussed this with my IC and he was fine with me doing it. The point is that it changes your attitude about yourself. And that comes across to your WAS even without telling them. Once BF realized that I wasn't sitting around waiting for him and that I certainly CAN find someone else he started to change his tune.
Additionally, I did lose a lot of weight, bought a bunch of cute, new clothes that were a somewhat different look, changed my hair style, did tons of GAL activities and started having a genuinely good time.
robx is correct.
It really helps, especially for us people on these DB forums. That external validation really helps.
Knowing something and doing something are two different things and both are going to yield different results. The feeling you will get from actually dating is going to be different from what you assume it will be. A lot of people on these forums with low confidence levels need the confidence boost that is obtained from knowing they have options. Yes it's external validation and I prefer to be internally validated but external validation has it's place as well so don't knock dating.
Absolutely, Rob.
Whether or not H
knows I'm dating - ptth. I don't care. I know I am.
AND it is very, very good to remember that there is a whole big world out there filled with interesting, handsome, funny men,
some of which make an effort to get my attention, unlike cheating H.
You are absolutely right that the experience w/(my cheating) WAS is
ego shredding, putting it mildly. Getting some much needed external validation has sure put a magnificent pep in my step. Whether or not H gets w/my new program is up to him; his loss if he doesn't.
Hell, I'm currently dating a much younger man & having a blast! H traded down and I've kinda traded up ...
There's "force," there's "threat of force," and then there's "credible threat of force." All subtly different.
If you can CREDIBLY project "I am willing to date other people, and I will do VERY WELL, THANK YOU doing so," then I don't think you need to actually date.
However, when you consider that the average LBS has been suitably beaten to a pulp, confidence-wise, especially when there's been infidelity involved, and I don't think you CAN credibly project that unless you DO actually get yourself out there, and boost your confidence up.
It depends on the person, I think.
Puppy
Oh, yeah, and another thing ...
I think it's kind of self-defeating / soul sucking to offer fidelity, whether it is emotional, physical, spiritual to someone who isn't willing to do the same for you.
Oh, yeah, and another thing ...
I think it's kind of self-defeating / soul sucking to offer fidelity, whether it is emotional, physical, spiritual to someone who isn't willing to do the same for you.
Man, personally, I wouldn't think of it as offering a danged thing. It's a boundary I set for myself and nobody else, and I set it based on a lifetime of making poor choices in relationships. I used to think I needed to be getting other female attention whenever a relationship was in trouble. It never made me feel better about myself in the end ( but it did drive some exes into crazy land).
I just don't want the regret. It's something I do for myself. I was dating 2-3 women at a time when I met my W. I know I can do that again. Sometimes that was fun, sometimes it was terrible, but I am not afraid of it, and if I were single I know what I would be doing and how to go about it.
Thanks, Robx! And, pearlharbr, I really like the sportsbar idea -- not TOO big a leap, but potentially fun. Hmmmm
I am on the fence about dating while married. And, to be honest, unless its very casual I think its unfair to bring someone into your life when you are actively, or inactively, trying to save your marriage.
CK you may find that you don't want to save your marriage,
you may find that there was no problem with you and that your WAS was making a list of complaints about you just to make themselves feel better and less guilty with moving on with someone new.
robx,
You inspired me to keep detaching and to stop being a doormat. I was about ready revert back to my old self. I know I will never go back to that person after reading your thread.
Thanks and keep up doing what you are doing!
#######################
An
ultimatum (Latin: the last one) is a demand whose fulfillment is requested in a specified period of time and which is backed up by a threat to be followed through in case of noncompliance. An ultimatum is generally the final demand in a series of requests. As such, the time allotted is usually short, and the request is understood not to be open to further negotiation.
#######################
Nothing says get with the program better than I found somebody else.
Ain't talking bout love
Don't wanna talk about love
Don't even talk about love
Silent but deadly ultimatums are where its at.
So RobX, asking this honestly, how do/did you navigate dating other people without developing romantic feelings for them and falling in love? Or how did you let them know you weren't looking for anything long term? And did you find you needed to settle a little, meaning choose to date people that weren't of the calibre (sp) that you wanted for a long term relationship?
new mama. you just stop answering their calls. they will get the picture you are not interested. pronto. and move on.
I agree that everyone has to make the decision that's best for them when it comes to dating while separated/still married. I think the best piece of advice I was given was from a friend of mine who is divorced (and did date while separated) and was in the form of a question.
He regretted dating while separated and asked me to consider this question....
"Do you think it would make a possible reconciliation more complicated, or less complicated?"
"Do you think it would make a possible reconciliation more complicated, or less complicated?"
see you ruin it by even asking that question.
Here is a quote from your very first thread:
Since we have been separated, I think it has given her time to begin to experience what divorce would look like. I think she is enjoying some of the freedom, but doesn't want the loneliness.
I am being vague on purpose.
I agree that everyone has to make the decision that's best for them when it comes to dating while separated/still married. I think the best piece of advice I was given was from a friend of mine who is divorced (and did date while separated) and was in the form of a question.
He regretted dating while separated and asked me to consider this question....
"Do you think it would make a possible reconciliation more complicated, or less complicated?"
In my sitch, H
made it much more complicated when he banged OW in my bed. And then painted me into a corner, so that the
sanest decision was for me to move, since he refused to. At this juncture, I don't give a flying fox that my OM is added a little bit more complication to the sitch that my H has entirely orchestrated.
H is a big boy. H f*&ked other woman; turn about is fair play. Had H kept his word and not had A, I'd have kept mine and
not done the exact same thing.
Ruined_No_More
I agree that you made the decision that was best for you. An A is not part of my sitch, so I don't want to pretend that I can relate to your sitch.
I posted the quote from my friend because A's were part of their sitch. They tried to reconcile, but couldn't get it done. I don't know details, but I respect his question.
Ruined_No_More
I agree that you made the decision that was best for you. An A is not part of my sitch, so I don't want to pretend that I can relate to your sitch.
I posted the quote from my friend because A's were part of their sitch. They tried to reconcile, but couldn't get it done. I don't know details, but I respect his question.
Hi G. Please don't think I was taking you to task, that wasn't my intention. I post what
I'm doing, as it is relevant
to me. It may be relevant to someone else, or not. The reader can figure that part out for themself.
Prolly should start my posts w/a disclaimer ...
So RobX, asking this honestly, how do/did you navigate dating other people without developing romantic feelings for them and falling in love? Or how did you let them know you weren't looking for anything long term? And did you find you needed to settle a little, meaning choose to date people that weren't of the calibre (sp) that you wanted for a long term relationship?
I guess every person is going to be different,
I just wouldn't develop romantic feelings and fall in love that easily. Say for example you meet new employees at the workplace, do you develop romantic feelings and fall in love with them during your first introduction and meeting? I know I sure as hell don't ;-)
I have dated 5 different women in 1 week (a different date per day) and I didn't develop romantic feelings for any of them, there was possibly some physical attraction but not enough for me to want to pursue it (they all wanted 2nd dates so maybe they were operating from a viewpoint of scarcity, not many good men left, etc.). Mind you I was employing a different mindset, one of abundance vs. one of scarcity. I have so many options now in front of me that I can be picky and choosey and when you have that attitude you will take your time in deciding what's best for YOU. That's the mindset to have: YOU HAVE OPTIONS.
That's similar to the mindset of a WAS.
They don't want you anymore, they feel they have options, they want to experience what's available, etc.
NewMama, do you really feel you're going to fall in love on your first date with a stranger? A usual first date is simple: meeting up for some coffee or going out for some drinks. Does coffee and introductory chit chat do it that easily for you? I guess everyone is different. From my own perspective I can walk down the street and be physically attracted to a dozen different beautiful women but that doesn't mean I'm going to fall in love with every one of them.
Let me know what you think about this.
I agree that everyone has to make the decision that's best for them when it comes to dating while separated/still married. I think the best piece of advice I was given was from a friend of mine who is divorced (and did date while separated) and was in the form of a question.
He regretted dating while separated and asked me to consider this question....
"Do you think it would make a possible reconciliation more complicated, or less complicated?"
In my sitch, H
made it much more complicated when he banged OW in my bed. And then painted me into a corner, so that the
sanest decision was for me to move, since he refused to. At this juncture, I don't give a flying fox that my OM is added a little bit more complication to the sitch that my H has entirely orchestrated.
H is a big boy. H f*&ked other woman; turn about is fair play. Had H kept his word and not had A, I'd have kept mine and
not done the exact same thing.
The thought of dating/finding someone new has crossed my mind a number of times. I can't deny that. My H did have an A and I feel that if I went out and dated, it WOULD indeed complicate things. My feelings would be compromised. Perhaps I would be distracted and probably not view my H in the way that I did (meaning that I probably would realize that I didn't want my H). I think about how H viewed me while he was in his A, how when I cried or broke down or was in pain over his betrayal it didn't phase him.
It didn't phase him because his feelings were already compromised. He had emotionally checked out of our M and was now emotionally vested in the R with the OW. For me, it was adding to the problem.
NOW, ALL sitchs are different. While we all share alot of the same pain, we have difference specifics in our sitchs.
I agree that everyone has to make the decision that's best for them when it comes to dating while separated/still married. I think the best piece of advice I was given was from a friend of mine who is divorced (and did date while separated) and was in the form of a question.
He regretted dating while separated and asked me to consider this question....
"Do you think it would make a possible reconciliation more complicated, or less complicated?"
In my sitch, H
made it much more complicated when he banged OW in my bed. And then painted me into a corner, so that the
sanest decision was for me to move, since he refused to. At this juncture, I don't give a flying fox that my OM is added a little bit more complication to the sitch that my H has entirely orchestrated.
H is a big boy. H f*&ked other woman; turn about is fair play. Had H kept his word and not had A, I'd have kept mine and
not done the exact same thing.
The thought of dating/finding someone new has crossed my mind a number of times. I can't deny that. My H did have an A
and I feel that if I went out and dated, it WOULD indeed complicate things. My feelings would be compromised. Perhaps I would be distracted and probably not view my H in the way that I did (meaning that I probably would realize that I didn't want my H). I think about how H viewed me while he was in his A, how when I cried or broke down or was in pain over his betrayal it didn't phase him.
It didn't phase him because his feelings were already compromised. He had emotionally checked out of our M and was now emotionally vested in the R with the OW. For me, it was adding to the problem.
NOW, ALL sitchs are different. While we all share alot of the same pain, we have difference specifics in our sitchs.
Again you are making assumptions,
no one is asking you to fall in love on the first date,
no one is asking you to go out on 2nd and 3rd dates,
the idea is abundance and you are still viewing this with a one shot/one kill approach. Are you really that convinced that the first person you date is going to be the next love of your life? Seriously? Trust me, if you go on a date with that attitude, you are going to scare that guy away and you won't have to worry about the 2nd date, dating is just that, dating, it's not a long term relationship, it's meeting someone for the first time and enjoying the experience of something new. I think you're still operating from a mindset of scarcity, explore your options, the mindset to employ is that there are many, many different people out there for me, maybe I should meet a few of them and learn from and enjoy the experience that it brings.
I agree rob, folks are looking at this way too black and white. There's a whole spectrum of "dating". The goal is to get back out there and experience legitimate interest from the opposite sex again. Doesn't mean you have to do anything about that interest, just experience it to know it's there. Assuming your ego has been shredded by an infidelity situation, it's an important part of healing.
I'm not making assumptions. I'm giving my opinion, from MY point of view. I get your point of view. To me dating is different..
And obviously you're not going to fall in love on the first date BUT you can be attracted enough and like this person enough where you can see yourself possibly wanting more out of just dating with that person after a few dates. I do believe that men and women do things differently and have different intentions, especially with dating. Like I remember when I first started to date H and I just wanted to see him, more and more..we both did. I remember him telling me he was falling for me after a few weeks. The feelings of excitement to see him. Don't you think that developing feelings like this for someone else is something that would be good?
Also, I believe that you have to be of a certain state of mind to be able to go out and date without attaching. Being vulnerable and emotional and start dating is the worse thing you can do to help your sitch IMO.
Robx, it makes sense that if you go into dating with the mindset of just having fun, not looking for something serious, AND you date multiple people then you can avoid getting too attached to someone.
Haha- I never have fallen in love with someone on the first date! But back in my dating days (not that long ago- 2002-04) I dated a bunch of guys, felt good, wasn't looking for anything all that serious, yet there would always be one or two that I would want to get to know better. And that I would see potential for a relationship with. This is after a few dates...and phone calls...but I wanted to be in a relationship eventually so maybe that is the difference. If you don't want to be in one, then I guess you don't allow for the frequent correspondence and you make sure you don't see them too often, right?
Now my other question- what women are you going after? Do you purposely avoid women that you think have qualities you like/want in a long term relationship?
BTW I am thinking about internet dating- you get to read their profile first so there are ways to see if the person shares common interests etc.
I
Robx
I'll again preface this as it's my point of view, and it probably differs from yours, which is fine and leads to healthy discussions.
I understand the casual dating/just socializing point of view. I'm good with that if it's someone's cup o'tea. The potential issue is that it puts both "datees" in a vulnerable situation. Rarely does anything serious happen on a first date, I'm with you on that. But, a first date can give EITHER party those warm fuzzies.
Another concern I would have is this. Let's say "Mr Separated" does go on a date. Do you let "Ms Dating Mr Separated" know that you are separated from your spouse? Are women comfortable going on a date (even casual) with a guy she knows is separated from his spouse (or vice versa)? I don't know?
Again, I agree that you don't fall in love with someone on a first date. However, to use a term I've seen on this board, what if you happen to date "Mr or Ms Batchitt Crazy" on a first date and he/she enters your life even on a casual basis.
I respect everyone's opinion and think these discussions are awesome. I happen to like them. But I'll stick with the question that I keep around from my buddy. "Does dating while separated make a possible reconciliation more complicated, or less complicated?"
Some may not be interested in reconciliation. To that I would say you may be more interested in divorce recovery than divorce busting.
Robx
I'll again preface this as it's my point of view, and it probably differs from yours, which is fine and leads to healthy discussions.
I understand the casual dating/just socializing point of view. I'm good with that if it's someone's cup o'tea. The potential issue is that it puts both "datees" in a vulnerable situation. Rarely does anything serious happen on a first date, I'm with you on that. But, a first date can give EITHER party those warm fuzzies.
Another concern I would have is this. Let's say "Mr Separated" does go on a date. Do you let "Ms Dating Mr Separated" know that you are separated from your spouse? Are women comfortable going on a date (even casual) with a guy she knows is separated from his spouse (or vice versa)? I don't know?
Again, I agree that you don't fall in love with someone on a first date. However, to use a term I've seen on this board, what if you happen to date "Mr or Ms Batchitt Crazy" on a first date and he/she enters your life even on a casual basis.
I respect everyone's opinion and think these discussions are awesome. I happen to like them. But I'll stick with the question that I keep around from my buddy. "Does dating while separated make a possible reconciliation more complicated, or less complicated?"
Some may not be interested in reconciliation. To that I would say you may be more interested in divorce recovery than divorce busting.
set up a profile on any online dating site and you can list your marital status as single, divorced, separated, etc so there is no need to lie about anything, does that settle your worries on hiding information? You control who enters your life and who doesn't, it is YOUR life. Again these are all opinions, my opinion is for the LBS dealing with a WAS who is having an affair, do it, it helps change your mindset, it helps you stop pursuing, it makes you more confident, it helps with a ton of stuff and I think it makes you more attractive to your WAS, you're no longer waiting for them, you no longer become a backup option to them, you remove options from them and add options to you - it's counter-intuitive and it works.
- stay thirsty my friend ;-)
"Does dating while separated make a possible reconciliation more complicated, or less complicated?"
Does being separated make a possible reconciliation more complicated or less complicated?
How does one get reconciliation?
I think reconciliation is complicated.
There seem to be many paths but the one we have seen repeatedly that doesn't work is pursuing, begging, pleading...
I think dating is the opposite of those things. Also if it is set up appropriately and you don't shove it in your spouse's face, then why not do it?
Some spouses have arrangements during separation to agree to date others. So it is open.
And how about this- if the WAS really wants to reconcile then from what I have seen, they don't give up trying.
Again these are all opinions, my opinion is for the LBS dealing with a WAS who is having an affair, do it, it helps change your mindset, it helps you stop pursuing, it makes you more confident, it helps with a ton of stuff and I think it makes you more attractive to your WAS, you're no longer waiting for them, you no longer become a backup option to them, you remove options from them and add options to you - it's counter-intuitive and it works.
I agree 100%, except for the counter-intuitive part. I think it is intuitive!
If you are still attached to your spouse and have hope to save your M, you are in little danger of helplessly falling for someone else. In fact, they've got quite a high bar to jump. If you meet someone you click with so well that they reach and exceed that bar, well, there you go. That's a very useful piece of information. We're not kids any more. Trust that you're capable of knowing the right thing to do with that information.
It's really not all that different from dating when you're completely single. We all have reasons we would resist getting involved with any particular person at any particular time. Being separated from your M is one of those things. The dating I've done while separated has never made me feel I was doing anything wrong, because I knew my W had abandoned our M, she was involved with someone else, and although I had hopes of saving my M, I knew if I met someone I wanted to pursue a R with, I was free to do so.
As rob says, it totally changed my mindset, changed how my W saw me, stopped my pursuing, and made me more attractive to her.
I feel it all comes down to making positive changes in my behavior. Dating/Interacting with women gives me the SKILLS, CONFIDENCE and OPTIONS to interact with MsR2C in a HEALTHIER way. I am a better person based on all the woman I have dated/interacted with since the bomb.
Again these are all opinions, my opinion is for the LBS dealing with a WAS who is having an affair, do it, it helps change your mindset, it helps you stop pursuing, it makes you more confident, it helps with a ton of stuff and I think it makes you more attractive to your WAS, you're no longer waiting for them, you no longer become a backup option to them, you remove options from them and add options to you - it's counter-intuitive and it works.
I agree 100%, except for the counter-intuitive part. I think it is intuitive!
If you are still attached to your spouse and have hope to save your M, you are in little danger of helplessly falling for someone else. In fact, they've got quite a high bar to jump. If you meet someone you click with so well that they reach and exceed that bar, well, there you go. That's a very useful piece of information. We're not kids any more. Trust that you're capable of knowing the right thing to do with that information.
It's really not all that different from dating when you're completely single. We all have reasons we would resist getting involved with any particular person at any particular time. Being separated from your M is one of those things. The dating I've done while separated has never made me feel I was doing anything wrong, because I knew my W had abandoned our M, she was involved with someone else, and although I had hopes of saving my M, I knew if I met someone I wanted to pursue a R with, I was free to do so.
As rob says, it totally changed my mindset, changed how my W saw me, stopped my pursuing, and made me more attractive to her.
That right there, brilliant!
Again, why sit home moping & pining for a cheating S? Makes no sense to me. If your S has abandoned you/M/R, then you
ARE single. You
ARE free to date.
"Does dating while separated make a possible reconciliation more complicated, or less complicated?"
Does being separated make a possible reconciliation more complicated or less complicated?
How does one get reconciliation?
I think reconciliation is complicated.
There seem to be many paths but the one we have seen repeatedly that doesn't work is pursuing, begging, pleading...
I think dating is the opposite of those things. Also if it is set up appropriately and you don't shove it in your spouse's face, then why not do it?
Some spouses have arrangements during separation to agree to date others. So it is open.
And how about this- if the WAS really wants to reconcile then from what I have seen, they don't give up trying.
- based on what you've seen on these forums,
how many LBS's give up when their WAS's are having affairs ;-)
good point Robx- I think we don't give up on our Ms when there is an A because the WS doesn't fully leave us or walk away in many cases!
but you are right. I am ready to do it I think. The people who read my thread and comment on it probably think I am a hippocrate with all the recent talk of dating then no, then yes, then maybe. Arghh! But you make it sound so easy and worthwhile that I think I will nibble and see what is out there! lol! Hey- it's one of 3 things I haven't done yet!
robx,
You have good advice, and I'm liking the "dating" concept if you are a LBS. I had this same concept in that I noticed some trends.
If I got outside attention from the opposite sex, even if my now WAS spouse did not know of it, she would usually draw closer to me or have a need to "mark" me. Usually if a female was coming onto me hard or they where having strong attraction, my wife would instinctually know it and respond positive.
If I was not getting outside attention, she usually did not want to be bothered with me.
All spouses are not like this, many spouses will have a high interest level for you no matter how "the world" is percieving you at the recent moment.
Others of ours, have gotten "out there" themself, so they are seeing it as "the world" or a single person would.
I guess in short it makes sense to retain attractive qualities and to get social life blood from being out and about.
He regretted dating while separated and asked me to consider this question....
"Do you think it would make a possible reconciliation more complicated, or less complicated?"
It's a great question. The tricky part is, as I see it, is that it also has to be considered in combination with THIS question:
"Do you think it would make a possible reconciliation more likely, or less likely?"
The quandary, ladies and gentlemen, is that -- quite simply --
it WORKS.Puppy
He regretted dating while separated and asked me to consider this question....
"Do you think it would make a possible reconciliation more complicated, or less complicated?"
It's a great question. The tricky part is, as I see it, is that it also has to be considered in combination with THIS question:
"Do you think it would make a possible reconciliation more likely, or less likely?"
The quandary, ladies and gentlemen, is that -- quite simply --
it WORKS.Puppy
We need to remain cognizent of what works, even if its not "logical" or "nice". Some of the things which "may work" and we have not explored may go completely against the grain, and some of the things may be manipulative or even MEAN.
Yep -- I agree. And I wasn't even addressing the "right" or "wrong" of it (personally, I'm opposed to it, unless there is infidelity involved, you're clearly moving on towards D, and you let your spouse know, as a courtesy) -- just saying that it WORKS, and that efficacy has to be factored in along with the "does it make it more or less complicated" question.
Lots of powerful forces are complicated.
Puppy
Puppy Dog Tails,
For me with the younger wife, I probably need to remain in those "social juices" for a while, and be considered attractive to various groups. I was when I met her.
Yep -- I agree. And I wasn't even addressing the "right" or "wrong" of it (personally, I'm opposed to it, unless there is infidelity involved, you're clearly moving on towards D, and you let your spouse know, as a courtesy) -- just saying that it WORKS, and that efficacy has to be factored in along with the "does it make it more or less complicated" question.
If it WORKS, then it is THE RIGHT THING TO DO. That is my belief.
I think the question you should ask - and there are many on here (does it complicate things, does it work, is it right for you, will you get attached - rebound, etc)
The full question should be - does it work, is there anything else I can do that will fit (assuming this doesn't) better into my moral scheme of things that will work just as well, and how does it make me feel about myself.
Not talking about how the attention feels, obviously that feels good - but when you're all alone in bed at night, are you PROUD of who you are when you're dating while still M?
I have to admit, it's tempting for me, I've thought about it a lot, even flirted more and more recently and found myself looking at men, and enjoying them looking back - but in the end, I'm a M woman, and I will go to my grave knowing I was faithful to the end.
It may work, but for me, at least, flirting is just as PMA raising and less hassle - I don't have to worry about slipping up and doing something I would regret.
GREAT thread, though.
DATING. DATING. DATING. hmmmmmmmm.....
There is a small gland located in the vertebrate brain called the pineal gland, also referred to as the pineal eye. It is responsible for melatonin production. Melatonin production is stimulated by darkness and inhibited by light, and decreased melatonin is taught to influence desire for sex. It has been studied in the seasonal breeding patterns of birds and other small animals.
Spring. talk of dating. Someone's pineal eye is getting some sunshine
- based on what you've seen on these forums,
how many LBS's give up when their WAS's are having affairs ;-)
I think this bulletin board is heavily skewed by codependent personalities and failure.
The observation is that people are attracted to happy, successful, interesting individuals. That and the personality traits associated with them make others want to learn more about you, spend time with you.
If your relationship with your spouse has you feeling the opposite, the very next thing you should consider is interacting with others, someone else. Spend more time knowing yourself then miserating over someone that is off doing such. You are likely to find you are an incredible person that people, someone else, are attracted to, interested in and are made to feel happy, successful and interesting by you. Get out and calcify that penial eye
.
I think this bulletin board is heavily skewed by codependent personalities and failure.
lol! Harsh! I am skeptical about "codependency." Isn't that what happens to everyone when they get married? Unless they live separately for work issues or something, lol? Seriously- don't couples get enmeshed with each other? I bet it describes 90% marriages out there!!
The observation is that people are attracted to happy, successful, interesting individuals. That and the personality traits associated with them make others want to learn more about you, spend time with you.
Hmmm, tempting, tempting.
Seriously, this is so true. Absolutely true... again, the morality issue for me, personally, but this is very true. For those of you open to it, just dating, even if your spouse doesn't know, will raise your PMA to a level that will attract them back.
The same can be said for many other avenues, though... For instance, if you have not truly detached, they just "know" even if you consistently "show" them and "tell" them that you no longer care, if you truly do, even on some deep level, they will just "know" that you are still attached.
That's why to properly DB, you must not hold onto the rope loosely, you must drop it. You must make changes for you and make them real and deep. There is a lot of non-verbal body language that goes on in a person's life that they read daily. Others just "know" when you're high value. Rob has gotten there, and so glad to see his example set up there for us.
Robx,
Coach and I are wondering if you are in the alt?
Greek
Robx,
Coach and I are wondering if you are in the alt?
Greek
are you referring to crackbook (facebook)?,
if so, yes I'm on there.
Mindful is on there, along with Serenity, Gnosis and a long list of others.
Let me know if you want to add me as a friend, if you want to email me, you can email me at smartassrob at gmail dot com ;-)
about dating...just realized something...saw on another thread where the woman started dating (cuz she was DONE-not as a strategy) and her WS wanted her back. HOWEVER when she started initiating invitations to the WS (i.e. pursuing but after a long while and after interest from WS), he WAS NOT RECEPTIVE. Turns out the dating thing just caused the WS to react and want her to want him, but it was not permanent.
I am so sorry that I can't remember who this woman was! SO dating 100% for you- not as a surefire last ditch effort to get WS back. Of course I am sure Robx knows this!
Hi greek, you and coach really give great advice could you look at my sitch and comment? It is labeled Toxic relationship but i need to fix it.]
Thank you
DATING. DATING. DATING. hmmmmmmmm.....
There is a small gland located in the vertebrate brain called the pineal gland, also referred to as the pineal eye. It is responsible for melatonin production. Melatonin production is stimulated by darkness and inhibited by light, and decreased melatonin is taught to influence desire for sex. It has been studied in the seasonal breeding patterns of birds and other small animals.
Spring. talk of dating. Someone's pineal eye is getting some sunshine
- based on what you've seen on these forums,
how many LBS's give up when their WAS's are having affairs ;-)
I think this bulletin board is heavily skewed by codependent personalities and failure.
The observation is that people are attracted to happy, successful, interesting individuals. That and the personality traits associated with them make others want to learn more about you, spend time with you.
If your relationship with your spouse has you feeling the opposite, the very next thing you should consider is interacting with others, someone else. Spend more time knowing yourself then miserating over someone that is off doing such. You are likely to find you are an incredible person that people, someone else, are attracted to, interested in and are made to feel happy, successful and interesting by you. Get out and calcify that penial eye
.
good point steve
Damn Rob! Just found this...I read anything and everything you post bud, God and YOU are why I survive day to day.
I'm bumping this. Hope all of the other people in our shitty places we reside really READ this and get it.
god...i'm so confused.....
god...i'm so confused.....
Dude!! So glad you found this thread. Be confused no more.
Bumping for extraordinary superhuman knowledge lol
robx,
how did this story continue?
did you get the truth from her? If so how was you reaction?
Is there another title to your story?
Long story, short, because I've been spending too much time on this site today when I should be... ahem.... working! A lot has happened and trying to condense it all in one post may put a lot of items all over the place but I will attempt to give you an idea of what happened and where we are now:
One day I reached my point when enough was enough,
you will know it when it happens to you.
I kicked her out of the home,
I packed her things,
I put the boxes in one of our two vehicles,
I told her that she wasn't welcome in the family home anymore,
I called her parents, told them that she was going to be living with them from now on and my wife hated that, she cried the entire time.
I told her "when I first met you, you lived at your parent home, you've become a kid again and children should live with their parents. I'm not your parent and I told feel like taking care of you anymore, you are not welcome in this home where I live."
The truth was she had affairs, plural, I found out about them because waiting for her at that point in the game was useless, I truly believe a cheating spouse in that frame of mind would hold on to those secrets as long as they could (till their very last breath if necessary). My reaction would be likened to a personal form of organized "batshitcrazy", it was the appropriate response. I shut down the "old" rob and booted up the "new" rob who was configured with a new set of operating parameters and new way of dealing with things because the "old" rob, for lack of a better description, couldn't get the job done.
After sending her to her parents for what she thought was a short temporary period of time, I continued to put whatever I could find of her's in boxes and place them in the driveway, she made excuses as to why she couldn't pick them up so I ended up delivering them to her parent's home (they weren't pleased). They were extremely angry at me because at the time they didn't know that she had cheated on me. Honestly, I expected that they would support her, it only makes sense that you take care of your children when you are a parent. I filed for legal separation, I petitioned for joint/shared custody and I got it (easily!), the children's principle residence remained at our home. I stopped helping her with picking up the children when she had a work schedule conflict, she had to start relying on her parents and that didn't go so well as she had started fighting with them. I stopped inviting her to things I did with the kids. We swapped the children every week. I stopped answering every text, I stopped being lulled into every fight or argument should could come up with, I stopped answering the phone, whenever she needed to speak with me, i was usually too busy. I told her of my plans to sell the home the following year (we stayed in the home because we had just moved in and done some extensive renovation work and the children love their home and their bedrooms and honestly I stayed because I decided I was going to stay and leave when I wanted), once I moved out of the home, I would file for divorce. I enrolled the children into counseling to deal with issues related to having separated/divorced parents, I enrolled them in sunday school and brought them every sunday (religiously!) ;-), I got them involved in school programs and sports, I got involved with coaching and actually started playing soccer again, we (the kids and I) went out a lot more, I started dating and had a blast. I made use of the gym membership and got into great shape, took care of myself, worked my butt off at the job but made sure I always had time for my kids and generally life became really... AWESOME!!! I didn't expect this to be the happiest part of my life but it's actually what happened. My wife on the other hand fell into a major depression, and dealt with issues associated with that coupled with her living at home, having to work full-time now and having to pull her weight at home with her parents because they stopped treating her like a princess. Real life finally set in for her, along with credit card debt, less than ideal physical health, being overwhelmed on the weeks that she had the kids. These WAS's don't get a chance to experience the reality of a separation/divorce until you decide to give them that reality. She even mentioned a few times that she never thought that this is how things would work out, that she never knew that what she did would cause so much trouble for herself, the kids, me, etc. She started to go to personal counseling quite a bit. She even asked me to go with her a few times, she was very depressed and needed to be with the counselor to have the strength to tell me the truth about what had happened, what she had done, and how sorry she was, how much she missed me, how much she loved me, how she didn't understand how she could do what she had done, she even said something to the effect that she almost felt like a different person (aliens/bodysnatchers anyone?) when she had had the affairs. She couldn't believe what she had done. The previous "me" would have gone all "melty man" and gotten emotional during these sessions and asked her to try again and go to marriage counseling but this time I didn't. I told my wife's counselor that if she thought it would help my wife get through the separation and divorce by my being there and listening to her during a few of these sessions, I would do my part to help her get through this process and move on with her life and hopefully learn from her mistakes in her next relationship. Well I tell you, when I said that to the counselor with my wife in the room, you would think someone was being murdered with all the yelling, scream and torrents of tears and crying. It was an experience, she pleaded, cried, begged, grasped at me, begging for forgiveness and asking for me to take her back and that she would do anything & everything for me to take her back. I told her that I couldn't do that and I left that session shortly afterwards so that she could calm down and deal with what she was going through. I didn't rescue her, I didn't offer to try again with her, nothing. I was pretty much emotionless at that point, I was surprised myself by my own reaction and I saw myself in her when this all happened: weak, vulnerable, scared, needy. I was honestly repulsed by her, I remember being so angry that she could reject me so easily when this all started but now I could see what she might have been feeling because when she was acting the same way, I didn't want to be near her. I went to several other sessions with her, still making it clear that I wouldn't reconcile with her. She continued to text msg and call me regularly, she would show up at church when I had the kids and ask if she could take us out for lunch or supper and to a movie or she would arrange some other family event and I found it hard to turn her down all the time, I'm not a machine, I'm just like anybody else, even I get affected by misty eyes pooling up with tears, we have a long history, I couldn't negate the good portion of that history completely. She would show up in the mornings at school and bring me a coffee when I'd be dropping the kids off, she would bring me a bite to eat at soccer games & practices, she would make surprise dinners for us, she would come to my soccer games on the weeks that she had the kids and come watch me play, she would pitch out and help at home on the weeks that I had the kids and I would agree sometimes to let her come over and see the kids and tuck them in at night. She would offer neck and back rubs even when I said things like "I'm not sure this is a good idea, we shouldn't be doing this", "I feel like I'm taking advantage of you when you do these nice things, I don't won't to give you false hope, etc." but she persisted, "don't worry about it, I'm just trying to be nice and help". Sometimes I would say no thank you, sometimes I would let her, It wasn't easy and I wasn't easy. Where as before I was a sex crazed animal (and she knew it), now I controlled myself and even though she offered and seemingly tried to trick me into having sex, I didn't succumb to it like I would normally. I was actually impressed with myself, I had self-control, I wasn't needy, I wasn't some love sick puppy who would cave in just because of sex. During the entire process I was changing quite a bit and she would see it just as she was changing as well. I originally was the one writing letters, emails, txting like crazy when this whole process began (and then I stopped) and now she's the one constantly emailing, txting (OY VAY!), she writes letters (hand written), cards, notes, I have rec'd flowers at work, cupcake cakes (cake made out of cupcakes if that wasn't clear), she pursues and I allow her to and things are much better now. For several months she pursued when I completely rejected her and she still didn't stop and after a few months, I finally agreed to go to some trial marriage counseling sessions but I made it clear that I was going "with no guarantees", that "this was just to help us communicate better since we had children to co-parent". It allowed us to talk about things without focusing too much on problems. I've learned (contrary to what you see in these forums) to not talk so much when it's not necessary and listen a lot more, she's very sensitive and I've learned that sometimes my sense of humor could be interpreted in a wrong way and hurt her feelings and I was oblivious to this before and I know it now, she constantly repeats how important it is to put your spouse as you number one priority in your life above your friends and family (whereas before I was never at the top of her list, her family: parents, siblings, cousins, friends, etc.always took top spot), she says she sees this with her friends that have good marriages, the spouses know that they are priority, she says she realizes that people in loving relationships take care of each other, not because they have to but because they want to and she realizes that we didn't do this a lot previously. We both have realized many revelations during this entire process, I personally was more of a mouse than a man when this all started, I never took care of myself, I never stood up for myself, was too quiet before, never commanded respect or enforced boundaries, I just took what I could get because I thought that was all I deserved. I previously believed that life was just about going to work and paying bills and just surviving (like so many others still do), I didn't realize that life could be more fun thriving instead of just surviving. I realized that if we divorced that I could easily meet other women and form new relationships, I previously didn't believe this was possible for me aka "I'll never find anyone else". When I started taking care of myself, getting a life, stopped focusing on her, stopped pursuing her, started pursuing my own life, started being ambitious with my abilities and what I could do and accomplish, that is when things ultimately changed. When I finally started dating other women (again, personal choice, you all have to do what works for you, I'm just saying that this worked for me), a few things happened, I enjoyed the feeling of external validation (which can be very addicting) and attention from other women, it was like a new experience for me, I never believed I would ever find another woman and in fact, the opposite of this statement was true. Dating became TOO busy, I'm not a gigolo and I didn't hump every skirt I came in contact with, I have self control but it was obvious to me that finding someone else in my new improved present condition wouldn't be an issue. Even some of her friends that she no longer maintained started showing an interest in me, she would ask questions, make comments, appear jealous/angry, make rude comments about these same girl friends that she used to hold in high regard and why? Because they were interested in me and they knew we were separated, I wouldn't have believed it was possible until I experienced it firsthand. None of this was difficult, in fact it was almost too easy, I had choices now (where previously I believed I didn't), my eyes opened to the fact that previously I limited my personal existence by being negative, narrow minded and having a mindset based on scarcity - all these thing contributed to making me unattractive to myself and my spouse. Now though, it's a different story.
Fast forward to today, we see each other regularly, we date, I will not become Mr.Wussy man ever gain, a trip is being planned for the winter months, somewhere hot/tropical and I'm being treated (another new experience), we go to marriage counseling, my wife pays for it (and it isn't cheap), she says it's a worthwhile investment in someone she loves and doesn't mind paying for it (which is good to hear), she painfully admitted the truth of what she had done (re: affairs) to her parents and that started a slew of other issues, she ended up staying with some other family the weekend she told them the truth because they kicked her out of their home (that was unexpected).
I continue to maintain my individuality, I still go out with friends, play soccer, gym, etc. I think a few marriage issues are related to always being "there", some space is required. I have my own life and personal time and she has own and she is getting better, her depression is greatly improved and she is being weaned off her medication (which makes me happy, I'm not a fan of AD meds or any medicine that messed up brain chemistry). Our children (which are very beautiful btw) are very happy, the happiest they've been in a very long time, they were pretty young when the "$hit" hit the fan, I think this process hurt them more than any of us, my daughter developed anxiety and breathing problems (almost like asthma but not asthma but she does have an inhaler for emergencies), my son would have stomach problems, sometimes wet his bed and sometimes have accidents at school too when previously he had never had issues like this and both had nightmares regularly. The past few months have seen many changes and many improvements with them (which makes us very happy), my daughter is very happy to "have her family back again", we're not 100% there yet but I'm in no rush and we are all doing very well.
What approach accomplished all of these changes?
It was the tough love, no more bull$hit approach.
It was the "get the f!@#$ out now!", "you don't live here anymore" approach - which is something I previously would never have done. It was the "there's a 1000 other women out there and only one of me" approach and actually meaning it. It was the agreeing with her affair and telling her "you should be with him, give me a call, maybe he'll hook up with you again now that I don't want you anymore, let's see if he still wants you..." approach, it was the "you aren't the only one who can find someone else" approach and following through on that and giving them fear of loss, fear of loss works, not as a temporary tactic but when it's done for real. Crisis motivates people to action, fear of loss is crisis.
Pursuing, gift buying, passive, non-argumentive, clingy, needy, nice guy tendencies didn't work and honestly they never will for anyone. I personally went from being needy, weak and wussy man like to being an ultra hard a$$ before I found my happy medium, I had to go from one extreme to another before I found where I needed to be for me. My wife respects me now where as before she didn't, the respect was established because I finally understood that respect is a requirement above all else, there can be no love between spouses unless respect is in place. An understanding of attraction between men & women is also important, taking responsibility for my actions and my wife taking responsibility for her actions was also key in our current progress.
That's the update and I'm literally pooped from typing this all out, I could easily type up a hundred more pages to all of this because it could be written and scripted into a movie.
If you have any questions please feel free to ask them.
You will notice that sometimes I'm on the forums regularly and sometimes I'm absent for a decent period of time. I have found that part of the healing/recovery process requires us to sometimes take a break from this site. I endeavor to continue giving back as much as I can to the site because this was a valuable resource for me during this process.
Ciao, a presto!!! ;-)
Wow!! What a journey. I can definitely relate to a lot of what you went through.
Congrats on becoming the best version of yourself you can be.
You are an inspiration to us all.
Goes to show how powerful "Tough Love" can be.
Bravo!!
You said you and your wife are now dating. Are you dating her exclusively, and if so how did you handle that transition?
robx thanks for the update.
If you have any questions please feel free to ask them
I know my W had a PA with OM after we separated. It was my turning point. I felt everything you did and acted like you when I had enough. All the feelings about not finding some else, being a great dad for the kids, getting involed more with activities...
I realized too that I was a good catch and OW wanted to date me the 2nd and 3rd time. Life was awesome. I was truely OK with W leaving.
The only difference I see is my W physically left a year ago.
I couldn't do the toughlove the way you did.
I decided to push for mediation, the selling of the house and such.
It wasn't until the reality of mediation she then called me to work on things. I didn't bite, I was so calm and collective during that phone convo.
That was a month ago. I continued moving forward with my own life.
She has not called or approached me to talk again.
So I contacted the mediator yesterday to push through our agreement so I can take it to file.
I am not bluffing. It seems when faced with the crisis and the reality of our sitch, my W takes action.
I will not go back to melty man either. I need to know she's willing to do the work.
I would like an apology from her and her to persue me.
She hasn't done anything yet.
I don't know what she's waiting for but I am going to continue to move on.
Thanks again, gr8