Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: smartcookie Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/22/09 01:50 PM
Some people think that a WAW is hard, angry, cold. In a fog. There's more to her than that.

4 years ago, a woman laid in bed at night, not wanting to wake up in the morning. There was no way out. She couldn't divorce him. He would have visitation without her there to protect them. He had never hit them, but he surely didn't understand how to care for them. He didn't even know who they were.

She couldn't leave. She had no job, no way of putting food on the table for the children she loved. She had been dependent for so long, & she trusted this man to provide for her. Now she lay in bed, wondering who he was, & how she got her. These were not the choices she would have made, if she had a 2nd chance.

She couldn't talk to him. He couldn't hear her. She desperately wanted to share herself with him. He had walls up. She couldn't penetrate them. He seemed so content to work, watch TV, eat & sleep. Why didn't he want more, like she ?

She felt trapped. She resented herself for letting him treat her this way for so long. He told her often enough, he was a good husband. She needed so much more from him. She tried telling him, for years she tried, then she cried, she begged, she pleaded, but he couldn't hear.

He was cold, hard, in a fog.

She tried everything, she read every book. She prayed her heart out. She tried to be more Christ-like. Figuring if she set the example, he would follow.

She knew it came down to two choices. Her children's happiness, or hers. She would sacrifice hers. She decided to stay, & raise the children, with this man who would never know her. When they moved out, so would she. Then she would salvage what was left of her.

She put her heart in a dusty old box in the top of the closet. It was easier. She didn't hurt anymore, she was numb.

When she finally quit trying, & tried to fill her hours with distractions, he noticed. His fog was lifting. He wasn't quite so cold, so hard. She didn't care. It was too late. She was numb. Her heart was in that box. She vowed never to take it out again.

She stumbled through her days, crossing them off in the calendar. Wondering how much longer she could live this way. Did her children see her unhappiness ? She wondered, are they better off with a single happy parent, or with two parents who co-exist ? The torment was eating her alive. What to do ?

By now, she wasn't sleeping. Wasn't eating. She pulled away from all of her friends. She was dying inside. She desperately wanted, needed to be loved, appreciated, noticed, cherished. She was a beautiful fragile flower slowly dying without water, sunshine & air.

When no one was watching, she cried. She cried til she ran out of tears. She wanted it to be over, she wanted the pain to stop. Everytime she looked at her husband, it reminded her of the pain. The pain that was consuming her. She turned to alcohol to numb the pain. Anything to make the pain go away. Her friends ask her why she's losing so much weight. She wonders, why can't anyone see that I'm dying here. She doesn't try to tell the man she shares a bed with, remember, he can't hear her.

She finally writes him a letter. She says she is done. They need to raise their children, & he's the only one who can be their dad. Now he's fully awake & out of his fog. He's scared. He had no idea how bad she hurt. He thought things were good. He's been living in a separate reality from her.

He says he'll change, he'll do anything, to make her happy. He says his family is the most important thing to him. She doesn't believe him. She's numb. Her heart is safely in that box. He tries, she watches. He tries some more, she watches. He's dying now. She's numb. Now he wants the pain to stop. She's numb. She wonders why did things have to go this far before he would hear me ? Now she doesn't want to talk to him. She's numb. Talking to him reminds her how much she used to hurt, she can see it in his eyes now. Her survival instincts kick in, at least she doesn't hurt now. She's numb.

The only place to go from numb is anger. He tries some more, she can see he's making changes. Now comes the buried anger. The anger that she wanted to express to him for all the years past. The anger she was afraid to show. He doesn't realize, angry is better than numb. He takes her anger. For 12 months he takes her anger. Sometimes he fights back, & when he does she goes numb again.

She's so scared to take her heart out of that dusty box. Numb is so much safer. Angry is so much safer. Does he know how hard it is for her. She knew the day that her children were born, that she would give her life for them. She just didn't know it would be like this.

Sometimes he tries to push her to heal faster. She's doing her best. He wants more from her at times. She's doing her best.

Some nights, the pain returns, & she remembers, & she just can't sleep. She's not numb anymore, and the anger is going away. She doesn't know how or where, but it is. She's so scared. Numb is safer. Angry is safer. If she gives in to her fear, to her sometimes overwhelming fear, everyone will call her a WAW. She wanted you to know.
_________________________
Posted By: robx Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/22/09 02:00 PM
If you don't mind my asking, was your husband physically/verbally abusive towards you? What things did he do to you?
That was 4 years ago. Now, this morning I'm laying in the darkness awake again. I go to divorce court in a few hours. So much has changed. I've changed. My kids have changed. I never wanted to be divorced. I wanted my family intact. I wanted my kids to have their dad in the same house. I grew up without a father, I never wanted theirs to be absent. But.......their dad made his own choices.

He was more absent when he lived in this house. Now that he's in an apartment, when he's with them, he's sometimes actually with them. He talks to them more. He is more involved in their lives. He's taken them to dinner alone & had conversations with them that I begged him to have for years. He has taken them to doctor appointments, and been involved in getting them to and from activities. He went shopping for a Christmas tree with them the other day, he put up Christmas decorations with them. He never did that when he lived here with us. I did everything with the kids. He worked. He escaped into work. He chose not to be involved with me or the kids. He chose work.

Now that I've filed for divorce, he says he can't get a job. He's being a "consultant" and making $1500 a month, so he says he can't pay spousal support. His choice.

I was a stay at home mom for 15 years. I went out and found a job in 3 months. He has worked and made $100 K a year for the last 3 years, but now he can't find a job. His choice. I'm now a working single mom. Something I never wanted, but now I have choices.

When he and I were together, I didn't have choices. He was controlling, domineering, chauvanistic, emotionally and verbally abusive. He was withdrawn, silent, cold, and disconnected. He worked. I asked him to talk to me, compromise, take turns. He refused.

Now I have choices. I'm emotionally & psychologically safe in my own home. I'm rediscovering myself. I'm finding out that I am capable, smart, strong, and confident.

I am a kite who was meant to soar. He was an anchor. He was insecure and afraid that I would soar, so he beat me down. Verbally, emotionally, and psychologially.

I'm soaring now. I ran a half marathon two weeks ago. If I would have told him I wanted to do something like that, he would have made it sound stupid for me to even try. I didn't tell anyone, I just did it. For me, for my new self. My stronger independent self.

I was oppressed for many years of my marriage. Not at first. It started slow, gradual. He tested my boundaries to see how far he could push me. I pushed back at first, then after years of pushing, I grew tired, and stopped pushing. I let him push me further and further away from who I was meant to be.

Now.......I am finding who I was meant to be. It's stressful and anxiety ridden at times. I worry about the kids, money, what will happen in a few hours when we go before the judge and dissolve this union. But, I have no regrets. I do not want to be with this man. I would spend the rest of my life alone, broke and safe to be free of his oppression, control, manipulation, and abuse.

You may ask why I share this. I'm hoping....praying that some men/women who are controlling and oppressive and pushing their families away, will read this and wake up and change........before it's too late for their family.

At first when my husband was reading here, I was scared and freaking out. Then I realized it's the best place he could read to understand how his actions and choices impacted us. He made his choices. I made mine.

Yes I walked away from my marriage, but only because that relationship was destroying me.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/22/09 02:36 PM
Hey sweet cookie..

What a journey. What growth. What a woman. *hugs*

No blame, only action.

Congratulations on your continuing path of health, self care and love.

You're worth it.

*hugs and smiles*
Posted By: Tomato Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/22/09 02:45 PM
Smartie ..is it really you?

Interesting.

Merry Christmas. Leave some of your cookies for Santa.

May your holiday season be a blessed one.

Ted
Posted By: soleil Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/22/09 02:47 PM
What an excellent post. I can totally relate smile
Quote:
Yes I walked away from my marriage, but only because that relationship was destroying me.


And THAT was the ONLY reason you needed.

You did the right thing. Congratulations on getting strong and saying "enough"....
Posted By: Dane Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/22/09 03:02 PM
SC,
This is great perspective for me, you sitch has similarities to my sitch with W. Thanks for helping me understand the feelings and the depth, and duration of the hurt a wife can experience. My wife, I am sure, has a very similar perspective.
I am ashamed of myself, and saddened that I might not be there to be a part of her soaring.
I am tempted to copy your post and print it out to discuss with my wife.
We are on the very edge of divorce, and she has expressed most of the same thoughts you have. I also probably woke up way too late.
Sometimes us men need a 2X4 too the head, being subtle does not work. You need to tell your man, exactly what you are feeling. Do not beat around the bush, or let him off the hook.
Good luck to you. Sounds like you have peace.
My prayers are with you.
Posted By: pitinmygut Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/22/09 03:04 PM
Reading your first post in this thread really opens my eyes to what my STBXW must have endured during our 9 years together.....I don't think I was as withdrawn as your STBXH, but I see a lot of similarities. It breaks my heart knowing that I am/was responsible for this.

Anyways, good luck in court today....and Happy Holidays!
SC,

Wow! What a post. And some of it hit quite uncomfortably close to home for me.

I wish you the best of luck. All of this is very, very sad. No one really wins. I think we just hope to get over our problems with as few battle wounds as possible.

I feel remorse, sadness and regret on a level I did not think possible that I did anything to hurt my W. And I know I did. I'm not perfect. None of us are.

"IF." What a powerful word. IF I had only done this or IF I hadn't done that, IF SHE only knew how sorry and how much I've changed...Then the sadness that comes along with the realization that IF doesn't matter anymore. It just doesn't unfortunately. Damn. How did we get here?

And that really hurts.
(((((cookie)))))

Thinking of you.
Posted By: SpyBunny Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/22/09 06:06 PM
Thinking of you also- keep soaring!
Hugs-
Bunny
Posted By: fb2 Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/23/09 04:36 AM
Dear SC, It's really never too late. Harden not your tender heart but take good care of your self.
Here is a different perspective. I'm willing to bet that your husband has a completely different story. Why was he so absorbed in his work? Did he not want to come home? If so, why? Why didn't he hear you? Were things not explained in a way that he could understant? Did he hear you but not understand what you were saying? When he finally heard you and was willing to make changes why wasn't he given the opportunity? These are all questions that he will have for you. It seems as if their was a serious lack of communication on both sides. If you still love him and if he is willing to make needed changes then it is still not too late.
Hi Scookie,

Always glad to see you post. You sound like you are doing well. I am glad. smile


HUGS
Posted By: soleil Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/23/09 05:10 PM
SC, just re-read your thread. It's seriously like reading a page from my diary. Thank you so much for putting all of this into words for others to see. Our sitches are so similar.

The constant crying you mention...when I think back, I feel so stupid for doing that in front of my H all the time, in hindsight, it feels so humiliating. All the times he'd walk right by me or tell me to move out of the way and, me, standing there like an idiot with tears streaming down my face, so pathetic and crying! What a joke!

You said he was more absent when he lived with you... can so 100% relate. Having him home was like having a ghost in the house, one you could see. I aways said he was like my formal living room sofa... there, but not really serving a purpose. All image, creating the illusion of what is supposed be this happy thing when it wasn't.

He always told me how lucky I was to be married to him. "You're so lucky, Sol. You won the lottery when you married me! Everyone says how great I am!" And I did feel lucky. The love I had was to a point of distraction. Maybe I love too much?

With all that said, I recognize my faults and accept things I could have done differently, should have, could have, and didn't. We could have communicated better. We could have tried in a different way. Maybe we still can. I hope so.

Reading your post is so refreshing. I'm not sure what my story's future holds but it's like looking into the mirror when I read what you've written here.

I wish you well in the future and so much happiness it hurts. smile That is great you are feeling so brave and awesome these days and finding joy.
Posted By: antlers Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/23/09 05:23 PM
Originally Posted By: soleil

1. The constant crying you mention...when I think back, I feel so stupid for doing that in front of my H all the time, in hindsight, it feels so humiliating. All the times he'd walk right by me or tell me to move out of the way and, me, standing there like an idiot with tears streaming down my face, so pathetic and crying! What a joke!

2. He always told me how lucky I was to be married to him. "You're so lucky. You won the lottery when you married me! Everyone says how great I am!"

3. With all that said, I recognize my faults and accept things I could have done differently, should have, could have, and didn't. We could have communicated better. We could have tried in a different way.


1. I did the same thing after it became clear that she was done. It was weak and pathetic. She couldn't have cared less either! I didn't know how to deal with it!

2. I did the same thing. I told her how lucky she was, and the fact is she was truly miserable. I was just trying to bolster myself up because I truly felt so inadequate. It was equally pathetic.

3. Absolutely. I have shouldered the majority of the blame, and owned what I did and how I was. Wish I knew than what I've learned since then.


There's a bunch of hurting people here, and I hope there is much hope, healing, and peace in store fo all of us.
Posted By: antlers Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/24/09 03:41 AM
Originally Posted By: smartcookie
Some people think that a WAW is hard, angry, cold. In a fog. There's more to her than that.

4 years ago, a woman laid in bed at night, not wanting to wake up in the morning. There was no way out. She couldn't divorce him. He would have visitation without her there to protect them. He had never hit them, but he surely didn't understand how to care for them. He didn't even know who they were.

She couldn't leave. She had no job, no way of putting food on the table for the children she loved. She had been dependent for so long, & she trusted this man to provide for her. Now she lay in bed, wondering who he was, & how she got her. These were not the choices she would have made, if she had a 2nd chance.

She couldn't talk to him. He couldn't hear her. She desperately wanted to share herself with him. He had walls up. She couldn't penetrate them. He seemed so content to work, watch TV, eat & sleep. Why didn't he want more, like she ?

She felt trapped. She resented herself for letting him treat her this way for so long. He told her often enough, he was a good husband. She needed so much more from him. She tried telling him, for years she tried, then she cried, she begged, she pleaded, but he couldn't hear.

He was cold, hard, in a fog.

She tried everything, she read every book. She prayed her heart out. She tried to be more Christ-like. Figuring if she set the example, he would follow.

She knew it came down to two choices. Her children's happiness, or hers. She would sacrifice hers. She decided to stay, & raise the children, with this man who would never know her. When they moved out, so would she. Then she would salvage what was left of her.

She put her heart in a dusty old box in the top of the closet. It was easier. She didn't hurt anymore, she was numb.

When she finally quit trying, & tried to fill her hours with distractions, he noticed. His fog was lifting. He wasn't quite so cold, so hard. She didn't care. It was too late. She was numb. Her heart was in that box. She vowed never to take it out again.

She stumbled through her days, crossing them off in the calendar. Wondering how much longer she could live this way. Did her children see her unhappiness ? She wondered, are they better off with a single happy parent, or with two parents who co-exist ? The torment was eating her alive. What to do ?

By now, she wasn't sleeping. Wasn't eating. She pulled away from all of her friends. She was dying inside. She desperately wanted, needed to be loved, appreciated, noticed, cherished. She was a beautiful fragile flower slowly dying without water, sunshine & air.

When no one was watching, she cried. She cried til she ran out of tears. She wanted it to be over, she wanted the pain to stop. Everytime she looked at her husband, it reminded her of the pain. The pain that was consuming her. She turned to alcohol to numb the pain. Anything to make the pain go away. Her friends ask her why she's losing so much weight. She wonders, why can't anyone see that I'm dying here. She doesn't try to tell the man she shares a bed with, remember, he can't hear her.

She finally writes him a letter. She says she is done. They need to raise their children, & he's the only one who can be their dad. Now he's fully awake & out of his fog. He's scared. He had no idea how bad she hurt. He thought things were good. He's been living in a separate reality from her.

He says he'll change, he'll do anything, to make her happy. He says his family is the most important thing to him. She doesn't believe him. She's numb. Her heart is safely in that box. He tries, she watches. He tries some more, she watches. He's dying now. She's numb. Now he wants the pain to stop. She's numb. She wonders why did things have to go this far before he would hear me ? Now she doesn't want to talk to him. She's numb. Talking to him reminds her how much she used to hurt, she can see it in his eyes now. Her survival instincts kick in, at least she doesn't hurt now. She's numb.

The only place to go from numb is anger. He tries some more, she can see he's making changes. Now comes the buried anger. The anger that she wanted to express to him for all the years past. The anger she was afraid to show. He doesn't realize, angry is better than numb. He takes her anger. For 12 months he takes her anger. Sometimes he fights back, & when he does she goes numb again.

She's so scared to take her heart out of that dusty box. Numb is so much safer. Angry is so much safer. Does he know how hard it is for her. She knew the day that her children were born, that she would give her life for them. She just didn't know it would be like this.

Sometimes he tries to push her to heal faster. She's doing her best. He wants more from her at times. She's doing her best.

Some nights, the pain returns, & she remembers, & she just can't sleep. She's not numb anymore, and the anger is going away. She doesn't know how or where, but it is. She's so scared. Numb is safer. Angry is safer. If she gives in to her fear, to her sometimes overwhelming fear, everyone will call her a WAW. She wanted you to know.
_________________________


Hi smartcookie.

I was the dumba$$ that you were writing about here. I'm sorry that you had to live that way for so long, and I'm sorry that 'she' had to live that way for so long. I can't change any of it...I wish I could though. What am I supposed to do? I've gotta keep on living. She's done. I hate it too. I didn't know then what I know now. How much penance is enough? I'm well aware of the damage I caused. I apologized, I owned it, and I've changed. Again, how much penance is enough?
Posted By: antlers Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/24/09 03:47 AM
Originally Posted By: smartcookie
That was 4 years ago. Now, this morning I'm laying in the darkness awake again. I go to divorce court in a few hours. So much has changed. I've changed. My kids have changed. I never wanted to be divorced. I wanted my family intact. I wanted my kids to have their dad in the same house. I grew up without a father, I never wanted theirs to be absent. But.......their dad made his own choices.

He was more absent when he lived in this house. Now that he's in an apartment, when he's with them, he's sometimes actually with them. He talks to them more. He is more involved in their lives. He's taken them to dinner alone & had conversations with them that I begged him to have for years. He has taken them to doctor appointments, and been involved in getting them to and from activities. He went shopping for a Christmas tree with them the other day, he put up Christmas decorations with them. He never did that when he lived here with us. I did everything with the kids. He worked. He escaped into work. He chose not to be involved with me or the kids. He chose work.

Now that I've filed for divorce, he says he can't get a job. He's being a "consultant" and making $1500 a month, so he says he can't pay spousal support. His choice.

I was a stay at home mom for 15 years. I went out and found a job in 3 months. He has worked and made $100 K a year for the last 3 years, but now he can't find a job. His choice. I'm now a working single mom. Something I never wanted, but now I have choices.

When he and I were together, I didn't have choices. He was controlling, domineering, chauvanistic, emotionally and verbally abusive. He was withdrawn, silent, cold, and disconnected. He worked. I asked him to talk to me, compromise, take turns. He refused.

Now I have choices. I'm emotionally & psychologically safe in my own home. I'm rediscovering myself. I'm finding out that I am capable, smart, strong, and confident.

I am a kite who was meant to soar. He was an anchor. He was insecure and afraid that I would soar, so he beat me down. Verbally, emotionally, and psychologially.

I'm soaring now. I ran a half marathon two weeks ago. If I would have told him I wanted to do something like that, he would have made it sound stupid for me to even try. I didn't tell anyone, I just did it. For me, for my new self. My stronger independent self.

I was oppressed for many years of my marriage. Not at first. It started slow, gradual. He tested my boundaries to see how far he could push me. I pushed back at first, then after years of pushing, I grew tired, and stopped pushing. I let him push me further and further away from who I was meant to be.

Now.......I am finding who I was meant to be. It's stressful and anxiety ridden at times. I worry about the kids, money, what will happen in a few hours when we go before the judge and dissolve this union. But, I have no regrets. I do not want to be with this man. I would spend the rest of my life alone, broke and safe to be free of his oppression, control, manipulation, and abuse.

You may ask why I share this. I'm hoping....praying that some men/women who are controlling and oppressive and pushing their families away, will read this and wake up and change........before it's too late for their family.

At first when my husband was reading here, I was scared and freaking out. Then I realized it's the best place he could read to understand how his actions and choices impacted us. He made his choices. I made mine.

Yes I walked away from my marriage, but only because that relationship was destroying me.



Again...what can a man do after he has caused this kind of pain for years to those he was supposed to care about the most? Other than what I had mentioned earlier? It's hard to live with the fact that we've done the damage that we have, and have lost those we cared about the most because of it. And it's hard knowing that we've caused pain and anguish to loved ones that will affect them for years.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/24/09 03:58 AM
You learn from your mistakes. And work every day on not repeating them.

What else can you do?
Posted By: 12bar Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/24/09 04:06 AM
Ditto that, this thread really hit home and made my failures very real to me. Whether with my current W or future W, I will not repeat them.

Happy Holidays Smart Cookie
I'm breathing.

Court was grueling. I thought it would be sweet revenge to watch my attorney kick his ass. It wasn't. It was painful. He's broken, hurting, depressed, alone. I don't enjoy watching someone in that state get beat down further by being confronted with his lying and naivety. It was amazing to hear him proclaim some of the beliefs he still holds to. Further evidence of why I am not with him any longer. The judge called him arrogant in his unilateral decision making for the course of our marriage. The stbx said it was his right as "head of the household". The judge said maybe if he would have created a partnership he wouldn't be here today.

We're still not done. The judge decided that he'd like to review the exhibits over the holidays and that it was ugly to proclaim a couple divorced days before Christmas. We go back January 5th for the decree and for me to find out if I get any financial assistance whatsoever.

I'm scared financially. We have nothing left. With him out of work for the past 18 months, and me only working for the past 6 months, all of our savings and equity in the home is gone. Now we have debt that we didn't have before as well. If it was just me, I wouldn't worry much at all. I have 4 kids to provide for. I think God I was able to find a job 6 months ago after being a stay at home mom for 15 years.

No matter that I initiated this divorce, it's painful. It's grueling. I'm depressed and on emotional overload. My emotions flood when I least expect it and I'm doing good to get out of bed. The kids are with him this year for Christmas. I get them next year. When we set up mediation this past June I had no idea it would be this hard to be without my children on Christmas Eve.

I appreciate the kind comments and sharing that you all have done here. I'm sorry I don't have the emotional energy to respond to some of the questions. It's so good to see my old friends and yes Tomato it really is me. smile
Posted By: Norm914 Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/25/09 01:28 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
"IF." What a powerful word. IF I had only done this or IF I hadn't done that, IF SHE only knew how sorry and how much I've changed...Then the sadness that comes along with the realization that IF doesn't matter anymore. It just doesn't unfortunately. Damn. How did we get here?

And that really hurts.


So true.
SC,

I'm saying a special prayer for you and your family tonight. There's really nothing I can say other than I'm sorry and that it won't always be this way. You've been at this far longer than I, so you know that.

Wishing you a Merry Christmas.
Posted By: Greek Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/25/09 01:59 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
it won't always be this way.



Amen. You will make better days. You will.
Greek
(((cookie)))
Finding new normal is part of 'normal' life... just like in the Lion King.. it's part of the circle of life.

I'd be much more worried if you were doing it without any 'visible' discomfort.

i KNOW without a doubt you can handle it..

happy holidays
Peace & love
Bridge
Posted By: Kimmie Lee Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/27/09 03:26 AM
Yes, wolverine, I too suspect that there are at least two sides to every story here.

Also, if I am remembering this correctly, wasn't SC the one who had her online EA OM "counseling" her H? That must have been humiliating.

If not, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Posted By: Sleepy Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/27/09 04:35 AM
SC,

That was a gut wrenching post. My wife is in a similar situation such as you. She says that things started to go downhill when the kids were born. Now she wants a divorce. Your post has helped me see into her mind and her torment. I've done all I can since my wake up call, but I don't think it is going to be enough. Good luck to you.
So, what can I do to help my wife want to take her heart out of the box?
Mark,

It has to be safe for her to take her heart out. She needs to realize that you are ready, willing, and able to lisen to her pain and her anger. That you want to be there for her emotionally. That you will validate her perception and her reality even if it differs from yours.
Tridoc,

Thank you. The best thing you can do now is listen to her, listen to her, and more listening to her. If she can vent the anger and pain, she can get to the true feelings.
Bridge,

Thanks for the call and the reminder about the new normal.

Love you

xoxo
Greek, giving and Junco...

Thanks for the kind words. It means a lot.
antlers,

when we know better, we do better.

And every chance you get, you listen to her. You let her vent and you validate her reality even if it differs from yours.
How much penance is enough? I'm well aware of the damage I caused. I apologized, I owned it, and I've changed. Again, how much penance is enough?
_________________________

antlers, you apologize, you change and then you forgive yourself for not knowing what you didn't know. Some debts can't be repaid. Both parties have to heal and come to their own realization of forgiveness. I'm not there yet, but I will be one day. Then maybe he and I can have a conversation about things and both of us find some resolution.
(((((cookie)))))
You are going to be all right! There will be some tough times, I am sure, but you are doing the things that have to be done to make the future better, rather than hiding from it!

You are on the way up!
soleil,

I'm so very saddened that our sitches are familiar. Yet I'm so grateful that we found each other here.

All the best to you always
Ready, thanks for being there, always.

Hugs
wolverine, there are always different perspectives. That's why police officers interview all the witnesses. 10 different people give 10 different stories of the exact same incident. No surprise there. When one person is incapable or unwilling to recognizing another person's reality and perspective, you have abuse.

I do not love him. I stopped loving him years ago. I left emotionally years ago. I left physically this year.
fb2, spybunny, Jeff,

Thanks for the support. smile
robx,

Yes he was. Does it really matter what he did? Is there a determination or gauge of abuse. One thing is worse than the other? I don't believe that. Abuse is abuse.

Hitting doesn't always hurt worse than words. Neglect can be the most extreme form of abuse. Being ignored or treated like a piece of furniture is not better than being punched.
gucci,

Good to see you, how you doin?

Thanks for the validation. It's been really hard, but no regrets.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/27/09 06:58 PM
Hey ms. cookie..

There are no winners in divorce. As grueling and taxing as it is, there's profound relief when it's done.

You've always been a survivor. Welcome to the wonderful world of livers.. (not the organ!) How beautiful to have your energy and vitality freed for what is most important in life.

*hugs*
Hey Ms. Butterfly,

Hugs to you as well!
Posted By: Greek Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/27/09 07:43 PM
Originally Posted By: smartcookie
When one person is incapable or unwilling to recognizing another person's reality and perspective, you have abuse.





This describes a disagreement, not abuse.

Greek
I am doing marvelous...

Thanks. Life is too precious to be unhappy....
Posted By: Dudess Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/27/09 08:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Greek
Originally Posted By: smartcookie
When one person is incapable or unwilling to recognizing another person's reality and perspective, you have abuse.


This describes a disagreement, not abuse


A disagreement is when you recognize how the other person feels and how they view the situation, but you view it differently and feel differently. You do not have to agree with a person to recognize their perspective and reality.

Abuse is when the other doesn't even acknowledge that your feelings are your feelings, that your viewpoint is your viewpoint.

Or if those are acknowledged as existing at all, insisting that you are wrong to feel the way you feel. Or that you are in error about your personal experience when you have just clearly and honestly conveyed it to him.

Most of all, it is not caring how you feel, what you think, or what you need. It is being treated as non-existent as a person in your own right.

That, I believe, is how cookie's H treated her and it is emotional abuse.
Originally Posted By: smartcookie
Mark,

It has to be safe for her to take her heart out. She needs to realize that you are ready, willing, and able to lisen to her pain and her anger. That you want to be there for her emotionally. That you will validate her perception and her reality even if it differs from yours.


Thanks. I'm trying. I've validated everything. It doesn't matter. And I don't have much hope anymore. She seems so much happier without me and ultimately that's what I want. I feel like a coward that I can't give her the one thing that I have to make her happy, the divorce. I can't hold on to her and I'm having a lot of trouble maintaining hope. I really lucked out with her and I'll have to deal with my mistakes for the rest of my life.

Your advice is good, but I doubt the M is salvageable. It doesn't mean that I won't make use of that wisdom. She still deserves to feel that I will listen to her.

Thank you again.
Posted By: Kalni Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/28/09 11:28 AM
Hi Cookie!
I believe 2010 will be a much better year for you dear,
stay strong
K
Originally Posted By: smartcookie
He says he'll change, he'll do anything, to make her happy. He says his family is the most important thing to him. She doesn't believe him. She's numb. Her heart is safely in that box. He tries, she watches. He tries some more, she watches. He's dying now. She's numb. Now he wants the pain to stop. She's numb. She wonders why did things have to go this far before he would hear me ? Now she doesn't want to talk to him. She's numb. Talking to him reminds her how much she used to hurt, she can see it in his eyes now. Her survival instincts kick in, at least she doesn't hurt now. She's numb.


This stood out the most to me. I don't think there is anything to add to it. Just,

Realize, there are no time machines.
Posted By: soleil Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/28/09 04:02 PM
Originally Posted By: antlers

Again...what can a man do after he has caused this kind of pain for years to those he was supposed to care about the most?


Antlers, I wanted to hug you when reading what you wrote. You have already recognized what you did wrong and OWNED it, which is admirable. That is major! You asked for forgiveness and that is commendable. You have made peace by doing that, even if it doesn't feel like it. Now you have to forgive yourself and try to move past it.

Originally Posted By: smartcookie
Hitting doesn't always hurt worse than words. Neglect can be the most extreme form of abuse. Being ignored or treated like a piece of furniture is not better than being punched.


Agree 1000 times over.
Posted By: luvless Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/28/09 04:13 PM

Originally Posted By: smartcookie
Hitting doesn't always hurt worse than words. Neglect can be the most extreme form of abuse. Being ignored or treated like a piece of furniture is not better than being punched.


story of my life right now - and yes...couldn't agree more!
This entire thread was powerful. Very powerful. Reading the words and responses was so very helpful for myself as well. I too can relate to many of the feelings, worries, concerns, etc.
It's scary, the uncertainty is hard, the pain you feel is awful, wondering if you'll ever truly be happy, wondering where things went wrong, there are so many things that go through my mind. In my head I know what I need to do, but my heart pulls me in a different direction.
Just wanted to say that I'm appreciative of this board.
Posted By: soleil Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/28/09 04:43 PM
Originally Posted By: nikblondiew
In my head I know what I need to do, but my heart pulls me in a different direction.


Do you love it or what? Gah! So annoying!
My intent isn't to frustrate soleil........rather just being honest. I'm sorry if it caused you annoyance.
Posted By: soleil Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 12/31/09 03:10 PM
Nope, what I was saying is that I AGREE with you!!!

Its maddening with your head and heart are going against one another, not to mention, darn confusing smile
It's done. We had our final decree today at court. The judge gave me a few gifts. I believe it was his way of making things right.

We were married 19 years. The standard for spousal support in our state, based on need, is 1/2 the term of the marriage.

After hearing all testimony and having 10 days to review the exhibits, the judge gave me 12 years of spousal support.

My attorney said this was unheard of, especially since I have a job and the ex doesn't. In negotiations, the ex had offered me 5 years spousal support, I asked for 8. The judge gave me 12.

I also got the house and hopefully can modify the loan so we can keep it. I figure I stand a good chance with the mortgage company since I have a job.

The ex was also strongly urged to find some sort of employment (with pay equallying at least what I'm making) or the judge advised me to bring him back to court and he would find for willful underemployment and significantly boost the child and spousal support amounts.

If I stay here and continue to post on my own thread, I will be moving over into the Divorced forum. It's been a long 18 month journey since I joined here. There were days/nights when I didn't think I'd make it through the next 24 hours. I did. There were days when I barely managed to keep breathing. I wouldn't wish this divorce journey on my worst enemy.

However, since I joined here my advice has been standard.

Put on your own mask first. Save yourself first.

I asked my therapist on Saturday to give me one piece of wisdom to hold onto while I was waiting for the final court date. He reminded me that being in an abusive relationship with my ex was making me emotionally very sick.

I saved myself. No regrets.
Posted By: godhelpme Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 01/06/10 02:45 AM
Hi SC, I happy to hear you have some resolution your journey. You are in my prayers.

I also have a question, I may have missed this but did your husband ever show any true repentance to you?
Originally Posted By: smartcookie
I saved myself. No regrets.


AMEN
Posted By: soleil Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 01/06/10 01:32 PM
SC, I am very happy to hear how everything turned out for you and that you are happier now. That is the most important thing.

((((( SC )))))
Posted By: Sleepy Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 01/06/10 02:42 PM
Cookie,

Good luck to you. I hope you can move on with your life, take your heart out of the box, and finally find some happiness.

Your initial post was so profound. It hit me so hard. I had a lump in my throat and my gut ached as I read it. I don't think I was like your X, but probably was. My wife complained often that she felt like a slave. I guess I did too. We escaped from our M through athletic pursuits and focus on our kids activities. We ignored each other and our relationship. It was really messed up.

I was wondering. Do you think if I showed a copy of your first post to my wife she would get the idea that I understand how she feels? Do you think this would make a difference? Do you think if your husband really knew why you were divorcing him and had empathy, and understood how you felt that it would make you feel better? Does it matter when you get to this stage? Can you ever take your heart out of the box?
Posted By: pinhead Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 08/31/10 12:49 PM
Bump
Posted By: DanF Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 09/01/10 03:33 PM
Originally Posted By: wolverine1997
Here is a different perspective. I'm willing to bet that your husband has a completely different story. Why was he so absorbed in his work? Did he not want to come home? If so, why? Why didn't he hear you? Were things not explained in a way that he could understant? Did he hear you but not understand what you were saying? When he finally heard you and was willing to make changes why wasn't he given the opportunity? These are all questions that he will have for you. It seems as if their was a serious lack of communication on both sides. If you still love him and if he is willing to make needed changes then it is still not too late.


Amen brother.

I had no idea that she wasn't happy and I certainly had no intention of hurting her. I thought I was doing what I was supposed to do. I guess there were different expectations about what life should be and there was a serious lack of communication. When my sister-in-law implored my W to talk to me about it, she said she "couldn't". I don't understand why???????? When she did talk, she said things like "I'm overwhelmed". So was I. Who isn't? She worked part-time, had days at the beach or movies with the kids. I was at work. I didn't think her life was that bad. I think it will be worse now, at least from a perspective of being overwhelmed anyway.

I have been accused of being content to work, watch TV, eat and sleep also. I would have much preferred to work less and spend more time with my family, but my job was very demanding and I was trying to get promotions to improve our situation.

I made changes and my W has acknowledged them, but she filed for D anyway and we are now separated.

Reading the post from SC has caused me to lose all hope that anything is salvageable. I know that my W feels the same as she did. The only thing left to do is move on and be happy for myself and my kids and I am on a high speed train to that destination. Just a few more details to work out.

I know that I have continued to defend myself above and maybe that is a big part of the problem, but I am refusing to take all of the blame for this. She just won't let go of it.

Good luck to all WAS and LBS out there. This is a very tough row to hoe.
Posted By: pinhead Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 09/01/10 04:04 PM
Managing expectations in a relationship is tough. One thing my W said in MC was that she didn't think she should have to ask for things from me, that I should "just know." Our C said that while that was a nice idea, it really didn't mesh with reality.

Lots of marriages are like that. We expect/want a certain thing, and when it doesn't happen, we're at a loss on how to deal with it. We make mistakes that build upon themselves, and we end up on this site wondering WTF just happened.
Posted By: DanF Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 09/01/10 04:22 PM
When I said to my W, "Why didn't you ask me for help?", her response was "I shouldn't have to!" I am not a mind reader and I don't see things the same way as she does. If something is missing, you need to ask for it.
Originally Posted By: pinhead
. . . We expect/want a certain thing, and when it doesn't happen, we're at a loss on how to deal with it. We make mistakes that build upon themselves, and we end up on this site wondering WTF just happened.


Exactly. Communication is important in a relationship (obviously) but so many of us just don't get it. I'd asked my H to go to MC at least once so we could try and work on it, but it was always a no go.
Posted By: pinhead Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 09/01/10 04:30 PM
You also have to have a good counselor. We had gone to a counselor after our first child, when my wife was dealing with postpartum depression. This counselor was a nice guy, but had no clue about encouraging effective communication. His general idea was "You guys obviously love each other, spend more time together." What a wasted opportunity! That was 7 years ago...
Yeah, a good C is a definite. We never made it to looking into counselors though. H had to go to one when he was a teenager for depression, he's never wanted to go back to one since.
Guys,

Originally Posted By: DanF
...I had no idea that she wasn't happy....


And this is another root of the problem. Cookie has given you a gift. You now have insight....

Listen to what cookie says...use it to make your changes....
Posted By: Mach40 Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 01/25/20 04:15 PM
SC, great post. I am the one you speak of to a degree. I did not know what I was doing to destroy the marriage. One huge problem was communication. Without it, your R will suffer.. Being absorbed with work and travel doesnt help.. Family first, and work at what works..
My wife and have been separated for some time. We talk, we laugh, she is slowly telling me she forgives me as I have been changing for several years, which she has stated she recognized.
We will probably get divorced anyways because her heart is just hardened. I still love, respect her, and validate her feelings etc.
Your post is very strong, very strong indeed.. Marriages are tough, and tougher when you are working it alone.
Posted By: tom_l Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 09/15/20 08:48 AM
Originally Posted by smartcookie
Some people think that a WAW is hard, angry, cold. In a fog. There's more to her than that.

4 years ago, a woman laid in bed at night, not wanting to wake up in the morning. There was no way out. She couldn't divorce him. He would have visitation without her there to protect them. He had never hit them, but he surely didn't understand how to care for them. He didn't even know who they were.

She couldn't leave. She had no job, no way of putting food on the table for the children she loved. She had been dependent for so long, & she trusted this man to provide for her. Now she lay in bed, wondering who he was, & how she got her. These were not the choices she would have made, if she had a 2nd chance.

She couldn't talk to him. He couldn't hear her. She desperately wanted to share herself with him. He had walls up. She couldn't penetrate them. He seemed so content to work, watch TV, eat & sleep. Why didn't he want more, like she ?

She felt trapped. She resented herself for letting him treat her this way for so long. He told her often enough, he was a good husband. She needed so much more from him. She tried telling him, for years she tried, then she cried, she begged, she pleaded, but he couldn't hear.

He was cold, hard, in a fog.

She tried everything, she read every book. She prayed her heart out. She tried to be more Christ-like. Figuring if she set the example, he would follow.

She knew it came down to two choices. Her children's happiness, or hers. She would sacrifice hers. She decided to stay, & raise the children, with this man who would never know her. When they moved out, so would she. Then she would salvage what was left of her.

She put her heart in a dusty old box in the top of the closet. It was easier. She didn't hurt anymore, she was numb.

When she finally quit trying, & tried to fill her hours with distractions, he noticed. His fog was lifting. He wasn't quite so cold, so hard. She didn't care. It was too late. She was numb. Her heart was in that box. She vowed never to take it out again.

She stumbled through her days, crossing them off in the calendar. Wondering how much longer she could live this way. Did her children see her unhappiness ? She wondered, are they better off with a single happy parent, or with two parents who co-exist ? The torment was eating her alive. What to do ?

By now, she wasn't sleeping. Wasn't eating. She pulled away from all of her friends. She was dying inside. She desperately wanted, needed to be loved, appreciated, noticed, cherished. She was a beautiful fragile flower slowly dying without water, sunshine & air.

When no one was watching, she cried. She cried til she ran out of tears. She wanted it to be over, she wanted the pain to stop. Everytime she looked at her husband, it reminded her of the pain. The pain that was consuming her. She turned to alcohol to numb the pain. Anything to make the pain go away. Her friends ask her why she's losing so much weight. She wonders, why can't anyone see that I'm dying here. She doesn't try to tell the man she shares a bed with, remember, he can't hear her.

She finally writes him a letter. She says she is done. They need to raise their children, & he's the only one who can be their dad. Now he's fully awake & out of his fog. He's scared. He had no idea how bad she hurt. He thought things were good. He's been living in a separate reality from her.

He says he'll change, he'll do anything, to make her happy. He says his family is the most important thing to him. She doesn't believe him. She's numb. Her heart is safely in that box. He tries, she watches. He tries some more, she watches. He's dying now. She's numb. Now he wants the pain to stop. She's numb. She wonders why did things have to go this far before he would hear me ? Now she doesn't want to talk to him. She's numb. Talking to him reminds her how much she used to hurt, she can see it in his eyes now. Her survival instincts kick in, at least she doesn't hurt now. She's numb.

The only place to go from numb is anger. He tries some more, she can see he's making changes. Now comes the buried anger. The anger that she wanted to express to him for all the years past. The anger she was afraid to show. He doesn't realize, angry is better than numb. He takes her anger. For 12 months he takes her anger. Sometimes he fights back, & when he does she goes numb again.

She's so scared to take her heart out of that dusty box. Numb is so much safer. Angry is so much safer. Does he know how hard it is for her. She knew the day that her children were born, that she would give her life for them. She just didn't know it would be like this.

Sometimes he tries to push her to heal faster. She's doing her best. He wants more from her at times. She's doing her best.

Some nights, the pain returns, & she remembers, & she just can't sleep. She's not numb anymore, and the anger is going away. She doesn't know how or where, but it is. She's so scared. Numb is safer. Angry is safer. If she gives in to her fear, to her sometimes overwhelming fear, everyone will call her a WAW. She wanted you to know.
_________________________

That sounds pretty much like my ex. [Maybe the two of you should get together.] Thank you Smart Cookie, this is what I had hoped to find, a description of a WAW. You can see my original post here: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2903820&page=1

In my defense, I will say that I wasn't emotionally abusive. I explored that long enough with my therapist because I had to know. Just HAD to know if I was that bad.

So tell me, how is it that you were so frightened to talk with him? To tell him, years earlier, that you were contemplating breaking up that beautiful family? Were you frightened of your ex? Afraid he would be angry or dismissive?

Because this is now hurting me big time. As my ex built up to her D-Day (or DB as y'all say here) she had convinced herself, and the girlfriends who were advising her, that I had anger problems. That when she served me divorce papers I would be furious. Never had she been more wrong. I was heartbroken. I was grief-stricken like never before. The night before she filed I still would have said that our wedding date was the best day of my life. And she didn't know that! All that pain (as you describe so well), accumulating over the years, had made her believe something that she ought to have known wasn't true -- perhaps because she fit me into a profile that said "of course he'll be furious."

I haven't been angry at her once. I think I have lived my Christian faith more purely since she filed than any other 12-month period of my life. Not that it's done any good, at least from the perspective of holding my marriage together.

It's so fascinating. Michele said in her first WAW article that the basically decent men who endure a WAW actually do truly change. They hit rock bottom and that change is possible only then. She also said that those men make great second husbands, because they are determined to not let it happen again. So for me at least, there is hope.

And lest you think there is no chance that we men can change, I saw an interesting example. The book "The Great Santini" by Robert Conroy is autobiographical about the author and his absolutely horrid father, a Marine Corps officer. Conroy wrote the book almost as payback for a dictatorial upbringing. But his father, when he saw the depicting of himself in the book, actually hit rock bottom and changed. Became a friend to his son. Even Conroy admits that his Dad did a 180, while already in his 60s or 70s.

Anyway, if you're still active here at DB, I'd love to continue this dialogue.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 09/15/20 02:11 PM
Yes, that post is pure gold. My W was on the cusp of giving up completely with no chance of return. I think if I had be oblivious and hadn't caught her EA as early as I did, she would have moved to that point of no return.

tom_h, you made this point:

Quote
And lest you think there is no chance that we men can change, I saw an interesting example. The book "The Great Santini" by Robert Conroy is autobiographical about the author and his absolutely horrid father, a Marine Corps officer. Conroy wrote the book almost as payback for a dictatorial upbringing. But his father, when he saw the depicting of himself in the book, actually hit rock bottom and changed. Became a friend to his son. Even Conroy admits that his Dad did a 180, while already in his 60s or 70s.


This is so true, it is never too late for us to change. However, I think smartcookie's point is that the WAW eventually reaches a point where she no longer care enough for the changes their LBH is making to matter. I like her word "numb". In their mind and heart they have moved on from the LBH no matter what he says or does at this point. Again, my WAW was right on the cusp of this. She could have written many of the things in the quoted post, and was already showing signs of giving up completely.

I truly believe that as long as there is breath in the lungs of a human, they can change. Just like tom said that the men can change, meaning LBHs can change, so too can WAWs change. We get LBSs that come here all the time saying "My spouse is so stubborn that once they make up their mind they won't go back on it." Yet that same WAW took the most sacred vow anyone could take, in front of God and witnesses, and are now going back on it. So if they can change their mind on that, they certainly can change their mind again to recommit to the marriage.

Also, the post quoted is pure gold, but one thing I want to reiterate, because it was so important for my own understanding in the thick of my sitch, is that this does not happen over night. Notice that smartcookie denotes "4 years ago". Her journey to being numb, and giving up, started 4 years prior. And this is why the WAW will claim on BD that "they were never happy". It has been so long that in their estimation it was always that way. We LBHs struggle mightily with this concept. And while the truth is somewhere in the middle (she was happy at points in the marriage) her perception is her reality. And we do ourselves NO favors by bucking against that.

One of the biggest improvements I made in my own life during my sitch, and something I've continued to foster and grow over time, is having empathy for others. I was not very empathetic prior to my latest sitch. Through IC and personal study and growth I learned the art of empathy. It is such a better way to live ones life!
Originally Posted by tom_h
Anyway, if you're still active here at DB, I'd love to continue this dialogue.


SmartCookie has been away from the boards for 10 years. She was a great support person that help me understand and change.


Sandi2 has great insight and is still active. She may chime in on your thread. In the meantime, you can start reading her advise to others and digest as much as you can.
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=16397
Posted By: tom_l Re: Look Inside one WAW~~~~~ Then and Now - 09/15/20 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Yes, that post is pure gold. My W was on the cusp of giving up completely with no chance of return. I think if I had be oblivious and hadn't caught her EA as early as I did, she would have moved to that point of no return.

Now, sometimes I wonder if my STBXW was having an EA. She is not an especially sexual person but if she was able to plot a divorce over 18 months, secretly, which is so out of character, then an EA is also possible. It could have been what put her over the edge.
Originally Posted by Steve85

I think smartcookie's point is that the WAW eventually reaches a point where she no longer cares enough for the changes their LBH is making to matter. I like her word "numb". In their mind and heart they have moved on from the LBH no matter what he says or does at this point.

Yes, while my STBXW didn't use the word numb, I know she was that way. After the BD, she talked about pain, but thinking back to those final 18 months, yes, she was merely numb. She would come home from work, we would have a simple dinner and some casual chit-chat, and she would retire to the couch to watch the Hallmark Channel (comfort movies) and multi-task, playing games on her iPad. I have no doubt that during those long months, all she was feeling was numb.
Originally Posted by Steve85
... this does not happen over night. Notice that smartcookie denotes "4 years ago". ... And this is why the WAW will claim on BD that "they were never happy". It has been so long that in their estimation it was always that way. We LBHs struggle mightily with this concept. And while the truth is somewhere in the middle (she was happy at points in the marriage) her perception is her reality. And we do ourselves NO favors by bucking against that.

Yes, my STBXW told a female friend (still happily married) that "it has been a long journey." She had told me nothing of the sort. But it was that comment that made me look critically over the past 12 years and I've now seen the signs, and the hints she was trying to provide.

But your best advice is not trying to understand the logic. There is logic, but it's framed by their pain. And yes, as you saw in the post on my own thread, I struggle with having been betrayed. Wasn't I at least owed a conversation a year prior? But I'm coming around.
Originally Posted by Steve85

One of the biggest improvements I made in my own life during my sitch, and something I've continued to foster and grow over time, is having empathy for others. I was not very empathetic prior to my latest sitch. Through IC and personal study and growth I learned the art of empathy. It is such a better way to live ones life!

Me too. I was pretty doctrinaire in my belief about politics, morality, and the like. People often thought I was too critical. I've decided to let all that go. Here on the cusp of 60, single again, with half my heart on a stake having bled dry, I've decided that only people matter. I will be more accepting and more empathetic. I am also gushing communication. The saying that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" is cute and pithy but is most definitely not true.

Thanks, Steve, please stay engaged with me on this thread and my own. I could use a few friends who are one year ahead of me. And you have great insights and understand both sides very well.
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