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Posted By: futureunknown my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/07/09 10:08 PM
Don't know who here has followed my story, but it's been quite a year for me. My W left me at the beginning of the year, she was having a long distance A with OM in another country. We have three little kids.

Each situation here has some similarities, and each has some differences. One big difference in my situation is that my W tried and tried and tried to get me to understand why she was so miserable and to give her what she needed, but I just wouldn't and couldn't listen to her and be the H she so wanted me to be. She wasn't asking for the moon, she just wanted me to be open emotionally, and cherish her more, and be more light and fun with her and the kids. I was a stressed out, overworked, miserable, semi-depressed person who was a big downer to live with. Not quite abusive, but bad nonetheless.

She retreated inside herself when she just couldn't get through to me, trapped by her vows in a M she grew to hate. She lived for years like that. Our M was a sad mess. She eventually told me she was leaving me, and only then did I take her seriously. I did turn myself around after that, and while she said she wouldn't leave, she couldn't find her way back to me either. She eventually started an e-mail correspondence with a man from her past, which grew into a torrid EA. She then told me we were done for good, she found a house to move to, and she was leaving. I soon found out about her A, but there was nothing I could do at that point. She moved out on New Year's Day.

My W's A intensified, and she travelled three times to see OM. I know from some intel that their R was very intense, very sexual, and she was someone with him that I never knew. I shut her out so much that I didn't even know who she was.

I used this year to really transform myself. I became much more open emotionally, and a very positive force in every area of my life. I got into great physical shape, and except for a few times my W and I got into arguments related to her A, I treated my W with much love and compassion. I had the advantage that her OM was far far away, so I didn't have to deal with him being here.

My W changed dramatically this year as well. She is so much nicer now. She has a kindness that is wonderful. She is great with our kids, and she treats me better than she did in our M. She is so alive now. I am blown away by how she has changed, and I have to say, I am almost intoxicated by how attracted I am to her. Her friends agree that she's almost like a new person, a good person. She and I have grown to really enjoy each other again, and feel ourselves getting closer.

We're now nine months into our separation, and my W's A has died way down, if not ended altogether. Last night she told me how sad she is over everything, that she misses the kids when she doesn't have them, that she still loves me. We've started discussing the possibility of reconciling, but we have a big problem.

The problem is that she says that although she knows it hurts me, her A was so intertwined with her finding herself that she can't regret it. She said she knows that means we can't ever be together again. I am miserably torn. I see her changes and I love who she has become, but I know the OM was a big factor in that. Would I ever be able to reconcile with her and enjoy who she is now when I know she will forever be grateful to OM for helping retrieve her from her pit of despair caused by our M? To be fair to me, her despair was also majorly caused by her abusive upbringing as well. Still, it seems impossible for me to be happy and fulfilled with her under those conditions.

I haven't read about any other situation here quite like this. Usually when the A is busted or over and reconciliation is discussed, the WAS is very contrite and remorseful, not GRATEFUL for the A and OP!
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/07/09 11:12 PM
How long ago did the affair end?
Posted By: MrBond Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/07/09 11:39 PM
Your W is right in that the affair gave her strength to do what she needed to do in terms of turning your sitch around. She is wrong however in saying that it means you can't be together.

Both she and you have to examine what the A represented. Not the A itself. What was she lacking that the A kicked into action? Find that out and your R will be better than ever.

I believe that all M can be healed. It just takes an understanding of why things happened in order for it to happen. Oftentimes it's a combination of alot of things. The key is to find out what that combination is and your R will be stronger than ever.

Good luck.
Posted By: antlers Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/07/09 11:55 PM
Originally Posted By: stuck808

I believe that all M can be healed. It just takes an understanding of why things happened in order for it to happen. Oftentimes it's a combination of alot of things. The key is to find out what that combination is and your R will be stronger than ever.


I believe that very thing. But the other party has to believe that too, in order for it to happen. If they don't...still doesn't change my belief.
Posted By: Dia Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 12:07 AM
What Stuck Said.

And from what I read, your W does regret hurting you.

In my sitch, we had a two-year separation. I hate that the sep happened. It was immensely painful to both of us and to our son. It was tragic. BUT...

We've both grown and changed in ways I'm not sure we could have w/o the sep. Do I wish we could have worked it out faster/different/ better? Yep. But I also have to accept that the sep may have been the best thing for us and the only way forward at the time.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 02:09 PM
Quote:

How long ago did the affair end?


Well, I'm not sure is has ended. That is question number one to resolve if and when we decide to take a step toward each other. I know it is not anything like what it was, simply by how she's acting, but I doubt all contact has been severed. She has no reason to yet.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 02:50 PM
Quote:

Your W is right in that the affair gave her strength to do what she needed to do in terms of turning your sitch around. She is wrong however in saying that it means you can't be together.

Both she and you have to examine what the A represented. Not the A itself. What was she lacking that the A kicked into action? Find that out and your R will be better than ever.

I believe that all M can be healed. It just takes an understanding of why things happened in order for it to happen. Oftentimes it's a combination of alot of things. The key is to find out what that combination is and your R will be stronger than ever.


Thanks stuck. I know my W and I have both reflected a lot on the gaping holes in our M that the A filled for her. It's really no mystery.

She wanted to feel loved and cherished. Whereas I definitely loved her, the ways I showed it were not at all her "love languages". I did it the way my dad did for my mom, all practical stuff, being a good provider, being reliable, trying to be strong, etc. She wanted to know that she was loved because of who she is, not just because she's my W. She felt like I could just plug in any woman into her role and I'd act exactly the same way, and I hate to say, she was right. I totally get it now.

She wanted to feel appreciated. I took her for granted. The things she did well were unnoticed, and things she didn't do, or had a hard time with, were fodder for my disappointment. I wasn't verbally abusive, I just expressed disappointment passively, with ugly silence. I swear that was even worse than if I had verbally criticized her, since at least then she could have defended herself.

She wanted to feel beautiful. This one we disagree with a little. Although maybe I didn't dode on her like she needed, I was very complimentary toward her, and I tried to make sure she knew I was attracted to her. Especially during her pregnancies, I always gently reminded her how beautiful she is to me.

But most of all, she wanted to be with someone who really wanted to KNOW her, and wanted her to know him. She wanted to feel free to safely express all her secrets inside. This is where I really failed. I was closed off, and I left her to live isolated inside herself. I made her feel like her emotional needs were just a frustrating bother to me, killing her feeling of emotional safety around me. It must have been misery for her. I hate how I failed her this way. I use every opportunity I can get now to show her I am safe, and I do want to know what's inside her. She is tentatively opening back up, and I am much more open with her now. Of course given the state of our R, we aren't exactly open books to each other, but I'm encouraged so far.

I do know it isn't ALL my fault, my W has expressed to me how she felt she failed me as well, particularly financially. I was so relieved to hear that. Now that she's running her own household, she's finding how much the costs add up, and how frustrating it was for me when she would spend so freely.

There is still love between us, we've both expressed that. I also believe all M can be healed if there is love, and a willingness to try.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 02:53 PM
Quote:

I believe that very thing. But the other party has to believe that too, in order for it to happen. If they don't...still doesn't change my belief.


Thanks antlers. I think one party can lead the other a long way toward healing, and hopefully the other will eventually join in.
Posted By: Hope4us Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 02:55 PM
Future, It doesn't surprise me that your W doesn't regret the A. In fact, I've read a ton of books since my W's A and the majority of them state that a good majority of people do not regret the A itself. Regret hurting you? Yes. Regret how it affected the family? Yes. Regret the actual A? Not so much.

My sitch is a lot like yours. We never separated, but I don't think my W regrets the A. Now that we are reconciling, I know the A pains her and I know it pains her for the hurt I feel, but I truly don't think she regrets the A.

I feel the thing you really need to examine is, like Stuck said, what was going on that drove her to that point. You really need to examine why she would feel like an A was the right thing to do.

LISTEN to her. REALLY LISTEN. And you'll get clues. And then work on those things. Don't tell her you are working on them. Actions mean everything. Right now she may feel it's hopeless, but your job is to not pressure her, validate her feelings and SHOW her that you guys CAN have a future. Once she commits back to the marriage, then you can discuss those things more openly.

And BTW, as long as she's still in contact with OM, your work is cut out for you. ONLY when she ends all contact with him will her feelings begin to come back for you.

Hope this helps.
Posted By: antlers Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 02:57 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Quote:

I believe that very thing. But the other party has to believe that too, in order for it to happen. If they don't...still doesn't change my belief.


Thanks antlers. I think one party can lead the other a long way toward healing, and hopefully the other will eventually join in.


I don't disagree with that, either! I do believe it's possible. One party can certainly change the dynamics of the relationship all by themselves.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 03:03 PM
Quote:

What Stuck Said.

And from what I read, your W does regret hurting you.

In my sitch, we had a two-year separation. I hate that the sep happened. It was immensely painful to both of us and to our son. It was tragic. BUT...

We've both grown and changed in ways I'm not sure we could have w/o the sep. Do I wish we could have worked it out faster/different/ better? Yep. But I also have to accept that the sep may have been the best thing for us and the only way forward at the time.


Dia-

I too believe my W regrets hurting me. Even when she was so resolved to leave me, and she had her walls up all the way, she still had a kindness toward me. I went to her the morning after she said she was moving out, I didn't say anything, but she could see I had been crying, and I gave her a long hug, I pulled back and started to walk away. She looked so sad, and mouthed the words "I'm sorry" to me without making any sound. That little memory just might be the difference if we decide to try to reconcile.

I feel EXACTLY the same way about our separation. I know there is no way we would have grown the way we have without it, and strangely enough, I know it is our only hope for truly fixing our R and having a great M. Of course it might also end our M, but without the separation, I know it was doomed for sure.

Thanks for being here.
Posted By: Lotus Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 03:15 PM
Future,

There is a lot of hope for this marriage. I think a weekend a Retrouvaille would give you both the opportunity to open up to each other in the positive way that you would like. And it will teach you to live together in a healthy way. It's not just talk. It is a weekend of releasing the past and starting a much better future. Go to www.helpourmarriage.org and look for a weekend in your area. They have helped people in much worse situations than yours to go on to happy marriages!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 09:49 PM
There is a Retrouvaille in a few months near here, and I'm considering asking my W if she'd attend with me. I need to find out what the status of her A with OM is first though. If we do Retrouvaille, she needs to be 100% done with OM, preferably for a while before we go.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 10:05 PM
Future,

I don't have any great words of wisdom for you, but I was riveted to your two long posts on this thread. You have a great way of expressing yourself, and my money is on you and your wife reconciling. I can't tell you WHY, exactly, it's just that . . . you don't seem "done" with each other, and there's a real love and tenderness underneath your relationship.

Don't count it out. I practically did, and I would have been wrong.

Wishing you all the best,

Puppy
Posted By: SDFoundGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 10:05 PM
If you can find some way to appreciate the catalyst that the bomb and the A was for you both, then you will go a long way toward healing.

I do not regret my H's EA or the giant bomb he dropped on me. Do I wish it could have happened differently? Sure. It was painful. However, unless that had happened, we'd both be miserable, very different people than we are after we went through this together.

Now, I insisted on no non-work contact with her, and it took some time to have him honor that until I blew sky high and was ready to walk. I still can't stand her, and I wouldn't be sad if she spent the rest of her life miserable. But I don't regret that my H did that, because it gave us the opportunity to build a new, more satisfying marriage.

You have work to do on yourself around this issue, on your thinking. You don't have to be thankful to the OM, but that doesn't mean you can't be thankful for a situation that launched both of you into a lot of self-work and introspection and made you better partners. Or you could insist on her feeling like you think she "should" feel, be bitter, and sacrifice any chance at reconciliation. You have the opportunity to create something good out of something ugly and horrible. Will you take it?

SD
<edited for grammar...ugh>
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/08/09 10:59 PM
Quote:
Well, I'm not sure is has ended. That is question number one to resolve if and when we decide to take a step toward each other. I know it is not anything like what it was, simply by how she's acting, but I doubt all contact has been severed. She has no reason to yet.


Yes, it most assuredly is a question that needs answering and your marriage doesn't stand a chance if she's still in contact with OM.

And, if you don't know that she isn't in contact then she probably is.

Hope4us is absolutely correct. Complete and total no contact is the very first requirement for recovering your marriage.

Don't let her back into your home until this has been dealt with. Other posters and bitter experience has taught me that it's a very, very bad idea. My W came back to live with me and stayed in touch with OM, even visiting him a few times. I am dirt ashamed of myself for this - I basically offered myself as a host that she could parasite off of. Don't do this my friend.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/09/09 07:57 PM
Quote:

I don't have any great words of wisdom for you, but I was riveted to your two long posts on this thread. You have a great way of expressing yourself, and my money is on you and your wife reconciling. I can't tell you WHY, exactly, it's just that . . . you don't seem "done" with each other, and there's a real love and tenderness underneath your relationship.

Don't count it out. I practically did, and I would have been wrong.


Thanks Puppy. Your words mean a lot to me. It's ironic. I can express myself so freely on this anonymous message board, but I couldn't open myself up to my W.

Ever since my situation began, I've had the same feeling, that there is still a connection between my W and me. We had a great friendship, and we relied on each other so much, and we really liked each other. I have detached fairly well, and am doing fine on my own, but it seems like every time I think we're drifting away from each other, something happens to pull us back. She so much doesn't want to lose me, that is clear to me. I asked her during our recent talk if she's really considered the brutal reality of our future if we can't find a way back, and she admitted to me that she hadn't, that it's just too painful to imagine.

I've followed your story, and I've seen some similarities, except for the obvious thing I stated, that my W doesn't regret her A. You and your W seem to have a connection between you that neither of you can bear to sever. I sure understand that. How long after her A ended did you begin to find yourself acting normal around her again, and noticing that you didn't think about her A nearly all the time?

I know your usual advice regarding boundaries, exposure, cutting off support. I'm nearly positive I could have busted my W's A early on by taking a very hard line. I could have cut her off financially, canceled her cell phone, blocked her internet access from inside our house, took her off my health insurance, threatened exposure, told her she'd have to fight for custody of the kids, and she probably would have come back crying begging me to forgive her. I had something so damaging on OM that with one phone call I'm sure I could have sent him running for the hills. The problem in my situation is that it wouldn't have solved anything. We couldn't fix our M from within, we tried and tried and tried. She might have come back and been a good wife for a little while, but her discontent would have eventually gained strength in her, and she would have planned her exit again, making sure her ducks were in a row this time. Although it was killing me, I knew I needed to let her go and let whatever was going to happen happen. I didn't help her leave, but I didn't stand in her way either. I let her know I loved her. Deep down I had faith that she'd realize she couldn't bear to lose me and break up our family. Like I said in my original post, we've both grown in such positive ways this year, it's hard for me to think of what happened as bad, although the thought of her with OM is a pain I wish I didn't have to carry. The intel I got was so brutal I try to push it out of my mind. I have the impression you've been there too.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/09/09 08:01 PM
Quote:

If you can find some way to appreciate the catalyst that the bomb and the A was for you both, then you will go a long way toward healing.

I do not regret my H's EA or the giant bomb he dropped on me. Do I wish it could have happened differently? Sure. It was painful. However, unless that had happened, we'd both be miserable, very different people than we are after we went through this together.

Now, I insisted on no non-work contact with her, and it took some time to have him honor that until I blew sky high and was ready to walk. I still can't stand her, and I wouldn't be sad if she spent the rest of her life miserable. But I don't regret that my H did that, because it gave us the opportunity to build a new, more satisfying marriage.

You have work to do on yourself around this issue, on your thinking. You don't have to be thankful to the OM, but that doesn't mean you can't be thankful for a situation that launched both of you into a lot of self-work and introspection and made you better partners. Or you could insist on her feeling like you think she "should" feel, be bitter, and sacrifice any chance at reconciliation. You have the opportunity to create something good out of something ugly and horrible. Will you take it?


I'm trying SDFoundGirl, I'm really trying. When I manage to get away from my pain and feelings of betrayal, I'm totally there. Everyone who knows us sees two much better people, so how can this have been a bad thing? A book I read said sometimes affairs are a wake-up call, that make people face some brutal realities of life and love, but also can blow apart a dysfunctional M, allowing a newer better one to grow in its place. That's the way I'm trying to look at my situation, but it's not easy.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/09/09 08:16 PM
Quote:

Yes, it most assuredly is a question that needs answering and your marriage doesn't stand a chance if she's still in contact with OM.

And, if you don't know that she isn't in contact then she probably is.

Hope4us is absolutely correct. Complete and total no contact is the very first requirement for recovering your marriage.

Don't let her back into your home until this has been dealt with. Other posters and bitter experience has taught me that it's a very, very bad idea. My W came back to live with me and stayed in touch with OM, even visiting him a few times. I am dirt ashamed of myself for this - I basically offered myself as a host that she could parasite off of. Don't do this my friend.


No worries GH31, I will not put myself back out there unless I am given complete assurance OM is gone for good. Given that we are separated, it may be difficult for me to completely verify it, so at some point, I'll have to trust her. I don't want her moving back for a long time, not until we are very very solid with each other. I will not put my kids through a failed reconciliation, so I will be very careful about this. I do have the advantage that OM is thousands of miles away, which helps somewhat.

Thanks for your warning.
Posted By: K4D Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/09/09 08:18 PM
Quote:
Re: my W doesn't regret her affair


My W doesn't appear to regret her A's right now either. They will with time. But maybe not right now.

Kevin
Posted By: K4D Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/09/09 08:20 PM
Sorry,

I had to comment on the subject line.

Kevin
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/09/09 09:06 PM
Wow, talked with my mom a little last night about my situation. Didn't give any details like I discuss here, just the general situation. It's one thing to think about me reconciling with my W, but I am reeling at the thought of trying to reconcile her back into my family. The damage is so severe. They all hate her so much. Sometimes I wish they didn't know, but I couldn't have gotten through this without their support, I had to bring them in. Now I find myself defending my W to them, trying to get them to understand my role in what happened, and how I was not the great H they hold me up as. They just see her as a villain.

Does anyone here have any experience or advice about how to integrate an unfaithful spouse back into their extended family?
Posted By: K4D Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/09/09 09:08 PM
No advice,

But I did the same damage in my family towards my W by telling them what was going on as I to needed someone for support. My W is not interested in having anything to do with my family now either.

I will be checking up on your thread to see if anyone can give you good advice.

Kevin
Posted By: AlexEN Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/09/09 09:52 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Wow, talked with my mom a little last night about my situation. Didn't give any details like I discuss here, just the general situation. It's one thing to think about me reconciling with my W, but I am reeling at the thought of trying to reconcile her back into my family. The damage is so severe. They all hate her so much. Sometimes I wish they didn't know, but I couldn't have gotten through this without their support, I had to bring them in. Now I find myself defending my W to them, trying to get them to understand my role in what happened, and how I was not the great H they hold me up as. They just see her as a villain.

Does anyone here have any experience or advice about how to integrate an unfaithful spouse back into their extended family?


Future, at the point that question truly "matters", the only one you have to answer to is yourself and whetehr or not you can accept/integrate her back into your life. If/when the answer becomes "yes", then it's almost irrelevant what they think. There's no reason you can't explain the "facts" to them as you have on this board. Your reasons are "real". IMO, your extended family have taken and will take their cues from you, if they don't, that's their problem, not yours.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/10/09 09:46 PM
Quote:

Future, at the point that question truly "matters", the only one you have to answer to is yourself and whetehr or not you can accept/integrate her back into your life. If/when the answer becomes "yes", then it's almost irrelevant what they think. There's no reason you can't explain the "facts" to them as you have on this board. Your reasons are "real". IMO, your extended family have taken and will take their cues from you, if they don't, that's their problem, not yours.


I guess your right AlexEN, the thought of us sitting around my parents dinner table at some future holiday is not pleasant, but if we are truly reconciled, and if we are acting happy and in love with each other, then my family should come around.

Just today we were at my son's basketball game, and after the game my W asked if we all wanted to go out to lunch together. I took cues from my parents and quickly made an excuse to say no thanks. She looked a little hurt. She really doesn't get how much damage she's done. She thinks because her and I are on reasonably good term that my parents will just forgive and forget. Not gonna happen any time soon.
Posted By: breakaway Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/10/09 10:02 PM
What was their relationship with her like before?

And what is your relationship with them like?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/10/09 11:07 PM
Quote:
I guess your right AlexEN, the thought of us sitting around my parents dinner table at some future holiday is not pleasant, but if we are truly reconciled, and if we are acting happy and in love with each other, then my family should come around.


I have seen this from both sides on that dinner table in my family. If you reconcile, you must support your W above your parents. What I mean is, put her concerns and wishes first. If she does not desire to go to dinner at your parent's home, don't push it simply b/c that is something you wish to do and think everything will be fine. I was that W the second year of my M and my H promised to be by my side and he thought everything would be ok. But what he didn't know was how I was treated when he wasn't paying any attention. It hurt to think that he was such a "mama's boy" that I was put in that position of sucking it up and enduring what I had to.

Then many years later, I was the parent. So, I know how badly it hurts to have an adult child who has been cheated on by their S. Don't expect your mom to be thrilled at you reconcilling with your W. Your mom is not in love with her, like you are. It is often harder to forgive those who hurt our childdren then those who hurt "us". Just don't rush thei R and give it much time to heal before you have any dinner plans.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/10/09 11:38 PM
Quote:

What was their relationship with her like before?

And what is your relationship with them like?


They had a pretty good relationship before. Not super close, but good, at least until the last couple years when she started being a WAW and treating me like crap.

My relationship with them is quite good, even better after all this happened, as I needed them so much. They live pretty far away though, so there is a natural buffer.
Posted By: breakaway Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/10/09 11:49 PM
mmm...so she had a decent relationship with them while you were still treating her like crap? But not after she got tired of it. Sorry to 2x4 you, but you seem to be backsliding into blame, and away from the sentiments you originally expressed about realizing why thinks went the way they did.

I would be careful about using your parents for support. I think MWD talks a lot about this in her books, about how family are not always helpful because they can't separate their feelings from what may actually be best for you.

I realize it's very painful to see your child hurt this way...but I think it's a bit immature and curious that they are ignoring your comments that "you weren't as perfect" as they are holding you up to be. Do your parents kind of have a fantasy view of this situation? Would it be typical of them to say it's all the other guy's fault? Because that won't be helpful in the long run.

Reconciling and blame can't coexist.

I just ask this, just wondering, because I've watched my aunt sabotage her son's relationship more than once, because she "loves" him so much. But she really just can't stand to admit her kid could have done anything wrong. That might not be your case at all though. Just curious. Something about you "reading their cues" and going along with them.

Perhaps you should just sit down with them and say, look, this could come up again, and what is your opinion on how it could be handled. Because how it affects the KIDS is more important than how it affects your parents.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/11/09 06:10 AM
Quote:

mmm...so she had a decent relationship with them while you were still treating her like crap? But not after she got tired of it. Sorry to 2x4 you, but you seem to be backsliding into blame, and away from the sentiments you originally expressed about realizing why thinks went the way they did.


I was portraying how my parents saw her. I was on my best behavior around others, so my parents never really saw how I was. From their point of view, they just saw my W slowly turn against me, and start to be selfish and treat me poorly. And of course they are very biased towards me, so they assumed anything bad they saw or heard about me was exaggerated. Even now I try to convince them of how I was, and they won't accept it. They just think I'm trying to take the heat off my W.

Quote:

I would be careful about using your parents for support. I think MWD talks a lot about this in her books, about how family are not always helpful because they can't separate their feelings from what may actually be best for you.


I think getting support from them is ok, but I know they are not the best sources of advice. They'd be happy if they never saw my W again.

Quote:

realize it's very painful to see your child hurt this way...but I think it's a bit immature and curious that they are ignoring your comments that "you weren't as perfect" as they are holding you up to be. Do your parents kind of have a fantasy view of this situation? Would it be typical of them to say it's all the other guy's fault? Because that won't be helpful in the long run.

Reconciling and blame can't coexist.

I just ask this, just wondering, because I've watched my aunt sabotage her son's relationship more than once, because she "loves" him so much. But she really just can't stand to admit her kid could have done anything wrong. That might not be your case at all though. Just curious. Something about you "reading their cues" and going along with them.

Perhaps you should just sit down with them and say, look, this could come up again, and what is your opinion on how it could be handled. Because how it affects the KIDS is more important than how it affects your parents.


It's not immaturity really, it's that they come from a different era. They know I provided for my family well, and I was trustworthy and faithful. They consider these emotional needs of my W to be hogwash to some degree. Both my parents grew up very poor, so they think she should have been grateful for what she had and stopped complaining about what she didn't have. And also, I wasn't really abusive, just crabby and negative and generally miserable. As my M got worse, my parents somewhat blamed my moods on my W for not supporting me more. In reality, she had just had it with my bad moods and didn't want to deal any more.

I won't let my parents opinion sway me from what I know I want, and what I know is best for me and my family. If the time comes, I will sit down with them and lay it all out.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/11/09 06:15 AM
[/QUOTE]
I have seen this from both sides on that dinner table in my family. If you reconcile, you must support your W above your parents. What I mean is, put her concerns and wishes first. If she does not desire to go to dinner at your parent's home, don't push it simply b/c that is something you wish to do and think everything will be fine. I was that W the second year of my M and my H promised to be by my side and he thought everything would be ok. But what he didn't know was how I was treated when he wasn't paying any attention. It hurt to think that he was such a "mama's boy" that I was put in that position of sucking it up and enduring what I had to.

Then many years later, I was the parent. So, I know how badly it hurts to have an adult child who has been cheated on by their S. Don't expect your mom to be thrilled at you reconcilling with your W. Your mom is not in love with her, like you are. It is often harder to forgive those who hurt our childdren then those who hurt "us". Just don't rush thei R and give it much time to heal before you have any dinner plans.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks sandi. I was hoping you'd stop by and comment on this. If my W and I do reconcile, I will absolutely support her over my parents, and I won't push anything to quickly. They will eventually have to deal with the situation. I think when they would see our kids so elated at mommy and daddy being back together, that will melt their hearts a bit!
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/12/09 03:08 AM
Quote:
Given that we are separated, it may be difficult for me to completely verify it, so at some point, I'll have to trust her.


Here's the deal Future. You won't be able to trust your wife until she starts being trustworthy. Once she's been trustworthy for a period of time the trust will return.

If your wife wants to win your trust back, no-contact will be easy to verify because your wife will invite you to hold her accountable. If she baulks or makes excuses about participating in accountability measures, you know she's leaving wiggle room for contact with OM and it really isn't worth going down the piecing path with ongoing contact.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/12/09 05:07 PM
Quote:

Here's the deal Future. You won't be able to trust your wife until she starts being trustworthy. Once she's been trustworthy for a period of time the trust will return.

If your wife wants to win your trust back, no-contact will be easy to verify because your wife will invite you to hold her accountable. If she baulks or makes excuses about participating in accountability measures, you know she's leaving wiggle room for contact with OM and it really isn't worth going down the piecing path with ongoing contact.


I know GH31. I wish I could just trust her, but I can't, and won't be able to for quite a while. I will struggle with that, because I'm a naturally very trusting person, and I want to think the best of people. I am encouraged by how we've been with each other for the last several months. Whereas last year when my W was having her secret A my gut told me something was wrong, now I feel she is being honest with me. Of course that might just be because she has no reason to lie right now. If we decide to reconcile, have a tough few days or weeks, and then she gets some secret message from OM, I know I can't trust that she won't turn back to him.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/12/09 06:17 PM
Last night we had our kid transition. Our S was crying because he misses me so much, and our D's were crying because they didn't want to leave mommy. This is truly hell. My W was struggling to keep her composure, and as I took the kids bags from her I asked "You sad?" She just nodded and started to break down, I reached my arms out and put them around her. She tentatively put her arms around me at first, then as she felt me pull away she really wrapped around me and held me tight for several moments. We let go, and she said for me to be patient with our D's. I said of course. She came out to the car and our youngest D was crying and pleaded with her "Mommy, I want us to live in one house!" My W was struggling and said "I know two houses are hard, it's the best Mommy and Daddy can do right now." We said goodbye and that was it.

This morning my W called to talk about kid stuff, but I know that was just an excuse for her to call me. I've mentioned it before, but everyone here probably doesn't know my W is a therapist, specializing in marriage and family. Shocking, I know. Anyway, she told me she's preparing a presentation to give to the local schools about the family issues children face today. Talk about ironic. She said preparing the presentation has reminded her of things she used to know but forgot, and she wants me to look over her presentation, because "it will help you understand what we're going through". I said sure. I have no idea what's coming there. Probably some academic reasoning describing how this is all "natural", and to be expected, and is actually "healthy". We'll see...

I feel an anger welling up in me. Not a mean anger wanting to lash out at my W, but an anger wanting to make my W face all this and stop avoiding. She clearly isn't done with me and our family. At this point, she is terrified to make a move. She feels horribly guilty, and I think she feels I will never truly forgive her, so she has to just march forward with her crumbling plan. I've told her I don't consider anything that's happened to be unforgivable, but she seemed skeptical and said "How can you know if you'll forgive until you know everything?" I'm not sure what else she wants me to know. Should I just offer up and say "Whatever it is you think I need to know, just tell me and let me decide whether I can forgive you."

All this with Thanksgiving and Christmas coming up. I am dreading the holidays for the first time in my life.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/12/09 07:20 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I've told her I don't consider anything that's happened to be unforgivable, but she seemed skeptical and said "How can you know if you'll forgive until you know everything?" I'm not sure what else she wants me to know. Should I just offer up and say "Whatever it is you think I need to know, just tell me and let me decide whether I can forgive you."



Yes.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/12/09 08:29 PM
We also have mediation coming up in two days. Getting this separation done is going to take several thousand more dollars, money neither of us have. This year has depleted us financially so much we're just barely meeting the expenses of our two households. I'm torn here as well. Do I tell my W, "Given the way you're acting, I don't think you want a divorce, and neither do I, so I'm not going to waste more money on it." Then add in the "Whatever it is you think I need to know, just tell me and let me decide whether I can forgive you."


Or do I follow the gucci philosophy and let her think I'm fine with the separation and divorce, as in "W, getting this legal separation done is going to take a few thousand dollars more. I don't really have my half, and I know you don't either, but I'm not going to tolerate this limbo anymore either, and there's no way I'm going to share you with another man, so I'll find my half somehow. Let's just get this done so we can move on."

What to do?
Posted By: Dia Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/12/09 08:36 PM
IMHO - you start with "Just tell me.." and you don't proceed to either of the others until you hear the "Just tell me" part. From where I sit, to do anything either way at present is making a decision on incomplete info.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/12/09 08:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Dia
IMHO - you start with "Just tell me.." and you don't proceed to either of the others until you hear the "Just tell me" part. From where I sit, to do anything either way at present is making a decision on incomplete info.


Wisdom. ^
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/12/09 11:10 PM
Quote:
I've mentioned it before, but everyone here probably doesn't know my W is a therapist, specializing in marriage and family. Shocking, I know.


My God, Future. She should not be in that profession. That's worse than a doctor who smokes. Sorry to sound judgmental, that's beyond shocking.

It shows you that adultery is a drug in the cheater's blood that alters their mind completely.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/12/09 11:45 PM
Quote:

My God, Future. She should not be in that profession. That's worse than a doctor who smokes. Sorry to sound judgmental, that's beyond shocking.

It shows you that adultery is a drug in the cheater's blood that alters their mind completely.


Don't I know it GH31. She was soooooo drugged out last fall. In the intel I got, she was mocking her clients how they were so pathetic, struggling to work through their problems, while she and OM were so perfect for each other.

The thing is, she's very well respected, even on the state and national scene, although she is DEFINITELY NOT pro-marriage. She's one of the "do what feels right to you" types of MC, obviously. I think it's so sadly perfect how that philosophy is being raked over the coals inside her watching our kids suffer all the time, and finding herself clinging to me even after she told me she didn't love me, our M was over, and she was so infatuated with OM. Now she tells me she still loves me, she says I'm a great man, I'm hot, and she's crying during child transitions, and this is almost a year later.

Over the years she would discuss her cases with me and get my opinion. She always seemed so personally vested in her clients. Their hurt was her hurt. I always respected it. I've considered giving her the question "W, what would you recommend if you were our MC?" The irony is overwhelming sometimes. Funny, I've thought of that same "doctor who smokes" analogy!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/13/09 05:46 PM
Went last night to meet my W to discuss mediation, which of course we hardly talked about. She asked what I want to do with this year's taxes, then I said I just assumed we'd be filing separately, then she said it might be better if we file together for the next couple years, then I said "W, we'll be divorced in a couple years." She got flustered and said "If you were trying to shock me, congratulations, it worked, now can we just talk about this?" I looked her dead in the eyes and I asked "W, do you want a divorce?" She looked sad and said "I don't know." I answered back "W, I don't want a divorce." And we were off on a HUGE R talk.

I effectively got the answer to "Just tell me and let me decide whether I can forgive you," although it got asked a bit indirectly. As soon as we broached the subject of moving forward, she said "There are some things you need to know so either you and I can continue to work on this, or you can just do what you have to do (i.e. divorce)." I said okay, she paused, then looked terrified and said "I don't miss you a lot of the time. I've lived for 10 months without hostility in my life, and I'm never going back to it." I said "You never should." We talked about that a bit, then I said "You actually didn't say what I thought you'd say" and she said "I didn't say everything, I just couldn't." She looked VERY terrified, looked at me and said "I can't, I can't hurt you like that". I knew what she wasn't saying, I knew from how she was terrified, and from the intel I got. She wanted to say "H, what I have with OM I never had with you." She knew from the look on my face that I knew what she wasn't saying. I thought our hopes might be over right then and there, but she hung in there and stayed with me, and to my surprise, I hung in and stayed with her.

We started talking about our M, and how we were both such bad partners. I told her how I used to pathetically think that as long as I didn't voice my disapproval about something, I thought I was being kind, even though my body language and attitude showed otherwise. She smiled and agreed completely that is exactly what I used to do. Then I said how it must have been repulsive when I'd then approach her for sex, and she sadly nodded.

Then she totally blindsided me. She said "H, you were married to the biggest loser of a W ever." I was flabbergasted, and said "What?!" She said "I was immature, and childish, and I always tried to maneuver situations into my favor." I laughed and agreed. This is an enormous move from where she was six months ago, when it was all MY fault. She said "I never would have been able to realize how bad of a W I was if she hadn't left." She said she doesn't know what came first, but she knows the way she was made my mood worse, not better. We had a little fun busting on each other's failings during our M, and laughing about it. I was a pathetic H and she was a loser W. Awesome!

Then it got more serious. I said "W, we've got a few choices in front of us here. Either we can just push ahead with the S and D, and get it done and get away from each other, or we can set it aside for now, spend time with each other and see what happens, or we can set it aside and get away from each other to see how we feel after a while. Or I suppose we can push ahead with the D AND spend time with each other, but that seems a little at odds with itself." She looked terrified again and said "If I go with a couple of those options, I'm going to have to do something... I'll have to cut a lifeline, and..." She paused and looked very scared, then said "I'm going to see MC later this week, and I need to get clear about what I want." I just nodded. She said "I'm not assuming that just because I want something that you'll want it too." The fact that she's even going to see our MC is incredible. The fact that she's openly discussing with me the termination of her A is incredible.

Of course she hasn't actually decided anything yet.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/13/09 08:40 PM
I think I need to have one more talk with my W before she goes to see our MC later this week. I need to make sure she knows what the stakes are from my end. Over the last couple months the boundaries between us have been very soft. We've done things together as a family and just her and me. She says she doesn't miss me a lot of the time? What a joke. I haven't let her miss me! We're together all the time!

I need to tell my W that if she decides not to cut that lifeline (completely end her A with OM), then I have only one choice, which is to move fully ahead with the S and D, and insist on new hard boundaries, essentially cutting off all contact with her. Custody transitions can go through her mother's place, so I never have to see her, and I'll tell her not to call me any more, for anything, ever. All kid issues, barring emergency, are to be handled through e-mail and texting. I'll tell her I won't stand near her at any of our kids' games or events, and I won't talk to her. Not because I'm angry or vindictive, but because seeing her will make it harder for me to move on and build a new life.

I feel like I need to proactively tell her this, rather than just react and do it if she says OM is too important to her to give up, because once she makes that declaration it'll be a lot tougher for her to back up. She's pondering things very seriously now, and I need to make sure I've made my position clear. She needs to know our R will be OVER if she decides to hold onto her A and OM.

I'm not nearly as confident in this as it probably sounds. Anyone here have an opinion?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/13/09 08:50 PM
Yes. I agree with you.

Puppy
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/13/09 10:20 PM
Quote:
Anyone here have an opinion?


I do Future. Puppy may or may not agree...

Quote:
She says she doesn't miss me a lot of the time? What a joke. I haven't let her miss me! We're together all the time!


This current arrangement is very comfortable for her. She gets her family fix with you and passion/affair fix with OM. As I suspected, the affair is ongoing and she is still in contact with OM.

Quote:
I need to tell my W that if she decides not to cut that lifeline (completely end her A with OM), then I have only one choice, which is to move fully ahead with the S and D, and insist on new hard boundaries, essentially cutting off all contact with her.


Cutting off contact with your W is your choice, and probably the right one if done lovingly. It's not something you need to insist on or get her approval to do. By spending all of this time with her whilst the affair is ongoing, you are actually enabling her and making life very hard for yourself emotionally. It is highly unlikely that she'll end the A unless she actually experiences life without you, and OM has to meet all of her needs. The reason you're in her life so much is because you provide things that OM isn't able to. Going pitch black is what Dr. Willard Harley would call a Plan B.

It's very improbable that she'll give up OM WITHOUT a period of no contact with her. Remember that affairs are a drug in the cheater's blood.

Your wife is actively in an affair and in my experience, the only thing they respond to is HARD CONSEQUENCES or more euphemistically put, LOSS.

And forget about "lifeline". That's Affair Speak for "addiction/indulgence that I would suffer for if I were to give it up".
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/13/09 10:46 PM
Hi again Future,

The counselling she wants to go for is probably an excuse to prolong the affair, buy more time and legitimise it all her her mind both to you and to herself.

All the while she gets to enjoy both you and OM.

Sorry to sound blunt and please remember, this is only my opnion. However you proceed is entirely up to you.

I wish you the best my friend.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/14/09 03:10 PM
Quote:

This current arrangement is very comfortable for her. She gets her family fix with you and passion/affair fix with OM. As I suspected, the affair is ongoing and she is still in contact with OM.


I know. I have been allowing her to cake eat that way, but I wanted to see how I felt about her before we moved toward divorce. I knew she wanted me around for the family fix, so I made sure we also have spent time alone just her and me. We have a great time, but you're right, she's reserving the passion for OM.

Quote:

Cutting off contact with your W is your choice, and probably the right one if done lovingly. It's not something you need to insist on or get her approval to do. By spending all of this time with her whilst the affair is ongoing, you are actually enabling her and making life very hard for yourself emotionally. It is highly unlikely that she'll end the A unless she actually experiences life without you, and OM has to meet all of her needs. The reason you're in her life so much is because you provide things that OM isn't able to. Going pitch black is what Dr. Willard Harley would call a Plan B.


Cutting off contact is definitely my choice. I did cut her off nearly entirely for the first six months of this year while her A was going strong, so she has experienced life without me. I GALed and got my head back on straight. As her A ramped down, I thought I'd test the waters a bit and see how I feel about her, and how we feel together, and I won't lie, I missed her. I don't know, maybe I should have held a hard line and insisted she gets nothing until she comes begging to me to take her back, but given what I know our M was, I knew that would never happen. She would maybe be sad, and maybe miss me, but unless she experienced me differently, she would never risk being with me again, and she would have no reason to end her A.

That's what I was trying to say in my first post of this thread. I couldn't hold myself up as the wonderful H she mercilessly betrayed. Our M had serious problems, and I failed her in many fundamental ways, so I had to let her go and let this play out. If she still had feelings for me, I hoped they would surface again, and they have. Are they enough to overcome our past? I don't know. I think it's great she has realized and expressed to me how she failed me too, and she says she still loves me.

My situation is includes betrayal on both our parts, which makes it difficult for me to follow one strategy here. I needed to rebuild trust before I could expect any change from her. Unfortunately, that required me to allow some cake eating. I didn't see another option.

Quote:

It's very improbable that she'll give up OM WITHOUT a period of no contact with her. Remember that affairs are a drug in the cheater's blood.

Your wife is actively in an affair and in my experience, the only thing they respond to is HARD CONSEQUENCES or more euphemistically put, LOSS.


Here's the real test. My W is acting waaaayyyy less drugged out now than she was 6-12 months ago. She is reaching out to me, and expressing regret about what happened to our M, and she seems to be telling me her honest feelings. I could see in her face that she doesn't want to lose OM, but I could also see that she knows she can't have us both.

Quote:

And forget about "lifeline". That's Affair Speak for "addiction/indulgence that I would suffer for if I were to give it up".


I agree 100%.
Posted By: Phoenixdeux Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/14/09 08:41 PM
You've said you piece. You've told her you recognize your faults. That's enough talking for now. On the other side, you put her up on a pedestal like she's the cats meow. She's a cheating wife...she isn't all that. I think it's past time you started doing your own thing and forget about her until she's ready to actually come through for the marriage. Anything else is just empty words. NO MORE relationship talks. No more, "we can fix this" talks. No more empty threats.

Start focusing on your own life. I don't see that you have kids (do you?) so there really isn't anything that is keeping you together or that she could miss as far as a family. You have no way of knowing whether she missed you at all...she had OM to keep her company. It's time for you to start getting to the point where you won't miss her at all either.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/14/09 09:01 PM
Phoenixdeux, get up on the wrong side of the bed? ;-)


Quote:

You've said you piece. You've told her you recognize your faults. That's enough talking for now.


I did tell her in our last discussion that I've said all I can say about our past and I'm only looking at the future now.

Quote:

On the other side, you put her up on a pedestal like she's the cats meow. She's a cheating wife...she isn't all that.


Yeah, I have done that a little too much lately, because she's so much better now, and I really like who she is, but she ripped herself down by calling herself the "biggest loser W in the world". She reminded me of all her faults, and she was right.

Quote:

I think it's past time you started doing your own thing and forget about her until she's ready to actually come through for the marriage.


I am doing my own thing the vast majority of the time. We were almost completely isolated from each other for six months. At some point, if you're going to try to fix your M, you have to start talking. Both she and I expressed that we're glad we're talking now.

Quote:

No more empty threats.


I haven't threatened anything. And the ramifications of her not cutting off contact with OM are not empty threats.

Quote:

Start focusing on your own life. I don't see that you have kids (do you?) so there really isn't anything that is keeping you together or that she could miss as far as a family. You have no way of knowing whether she missed you at all...she had OM to keep her company. It's time for you to start getting to the point where you won't miss her at all either.


We have three little kids, and she misses our family terribly. That's why she's crying during kid transitions. I know she misses me because when we see each other her demeanor and body language is so forward, and she peppers me with questions about my life. It's almost like she's starving for my friendship.

Quote:

It's time for you to start getting to the point where you won't miss her at all either.


That's my goal if she chooses to not break away from OM altogether.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/14/09 09:07 PM
Hi Future,

I wanted to add something about the whole "put the Princess on the pedestal" thing.

I too did this -- BIG time. And so did my wife's parents, and many of her friends, and even one of our adult daughters. Through many long, heartfelt conversations, my wife shared with me that she HATED this, and that she'd grown to learn that IT ACTUALLY HURT HER when people did that. That she needed to know that she was loved AS SHE IS, FAULTS, FLAWS AND ALL, and not just the IMAGE of what we WANTED her to be.

Boy, was I guilt of THAT!!! I've learned over the past two years to learn to love my wife all over again, from scratch, FOR WHO SHE IS, and not who I -- if I just phrased things juuuust right, and minded my Ps and Qs, and did all the right things -- WANTED her to be.

Does that make sense?

It's REAL LOVE, vs. LOVE OF AN IDEAL IMAGE.

Puppy
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/14/09 09:09 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


Quote:

It's time for you to start getting to the point where you won't miss her at all either.


That's my goal if she chooses to not break away from OM altogether.


Ahhh, but Grasshopper, that is the Chicken and the Egg. cool

You see, it is my GALing to the point where you BEGIN to stop being so co-dependent on her, that she will MAKE THE CHOICE to break away from OM altogether!!

Understand???

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/14/09 09:32 PM
Thanks Puppy, it does make sense, and I've been guilty of loving an image of her that isn't all real, but only lately. In our M, I certainly wasn't guilty of that! She felt like I was beating her over the head with her weaknesses and faults, and I hate to say, I was. To ignore their faults is just as bad, because as you say, then they think you're loving someone they're not. I think the key is to LOVINGLY ACCEPT their faults, so they feel they'll be loved no matter what. One way they know it is by harmlessly teasing them about their faults. I totally get it now.

Maybe it helped today when we left mediation, I smiled at her and addressed her as "Loser Wife". She smiled and answered back "Loser Husband", and I said "No, I'm Pathetic Husband". She said "Oh right, Pathetic Husband!" We were actually smiling and joking on our way out of mediation, a strange turn of events. We did tell the mediator to hold off on preparing the separation papers until next year. As I left her in the elevator she smiled and asked "Talk later?" I said "Sure".

She just sent me a picture of our youngest daughter riding a full sized horse at her riding lesson this afternoon. She looks like a doll on that horse!
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/14/09 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


Maybe it helped today when we left mediation, I smiled at her and addressed her as "Loser Wife". She smiled and answered back "Loser Husband", and I said "No, I'm Pathetic Husband". She said "Oh right, Pathetic Husband!" We were actually smiling and joking on our way out of mediation, a strange turn of events. We did tell the mediator to hold off on preparing the separation papers until next year. As I left her in the elevator she smiled and asked "Talk later?" I said "Sure".


That's good. smile
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/14/09 09:42 PM
Quote:

Ahhh, but Grasshopper, that is the Chicken and the Egg.

You see, it is my GALing to the point where you BEGIN to stop being so co-dependent on her, that she will MAKE THE CHOICE to break away from OM altogether!!

Understand???


Funny stuff Puppy. The young kids here at work totally don't get it when I call them Grasshopper!

Boy, I sure feel like I'm not co-dependent any more. I definitely was, and it was hard breaking away, but we've been separated for 10 months now. I'm living in my house, got my kids half the time, doing great with them, and I'm busy almost every night I don't have them. I'll be running a marathon next month. I think I'm doing okay.

She needs to make the break from OM. She knows it, I know it. Remember, OM is thousands of miles away, so that muddies things up a little bit. He's never even been here.

Today in mediation the subject of tax returns way in the future came up, and I was forced to say "I can't be required to submit my future tax returns to adjust child support. I will almost certainly be married again, probably with other kids involved, and I can't have my wife's income being included in the child support adjustment." My W seemed very surprised when I said that. I think she gets it.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/14/09 09:46 PM
Okie dokie.
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/14/09 10:21 PM
Good morning Future,

Quote:
She needs to make the break from OM. She knows it, I know it.


And she most probably will under the right conditions. She may not be as "drugged out" anymore but the affair is still in progress, and, as Puppy and the good Phoenixdeux point out your marriage is worthless while that's the case.

I know you were bad in your M. I was in mine too. I was abusive, thoughtless, selfish and an all round jerk. You're responsible for that and I can tell you own it. You're not responsible for your wife's decision to lie and cheat.

If OM is thousands of miles away (as he was in my sitch) that will naturally limit the extent to which he can meet your wife's emotional needs. After the infatuation chemicals started to subside a little in your wife's brain and reality intruded on her fantasy, she looked to you ... but not completely as you've discovered.

Phoenixdeux and Puppy are right, now is not the first 6 months of your W's affair. You would be better off going completely dark until/unless you are 100% that your W's affair is history. I did this with my own W and she came back albeit grudgingly. Her actions tell you that she's far from done with you.

Translation: "I don't know what I want" means "I'm not ready to give up my affair yet" similar to "I'll quit smoking next year".

Please keep us posted.
Posted By: Dia Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/14/09 10:24 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown

... and I said "No, I'm Pathetic Husband".


"But, Daaa-aaad, I'm Jesus Christ !"

This concludes your obscure Bill Cosby reference for the day.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/15/09 02:42 PM
Quote:

And she most probably will under the right conditions. She may not be as "drugged out" anymore but the affair is still in progress, and, as Puppy and the good Phoenixdeux point out your marriage is worthless while that's the case.


We have managed to work on our R, but I know what you mean, she still has that wall up because she hasn't let go of OM, and as long as that wall is there, I'm on the outside looking in.

Quote:

I know you were bad in your M. I was in mine too. I was abusive, thoughtless, selfish and an all round jerk. You're responsible for that and I can tell you own it. You're not responsible for your wife's decision to lie and cheat.


Thanks Dia. Sometimes I do blame myself too much I think. At least now she appears to own her actions. She said to me "At least what you did is denfensible, what I did is indefensible."

Quote:

If OM is thousands of miles away (as he was in my sitch) that will naturally limit the extent to which he can meet your wife's emotional needs. After the infatuation chemicals started to subside a little in your wife's brain and reality intruded on her fantasy, she looked to you ... but not completely as you've discovered.

Phoenixdeux and Puppy are right, now is not the first 6 months of your W's affair. You would be better off going completely dark until/unless you are 100% that your W's affair is history. I did this with my own W and she came back albeit grudgingly. Her actions tell you that she's far from done with you.


I'm not really sure what to do here. I've said enough things to her that I think she knows I will not tolerate her continued contact with OM. I can't decide if it's more powerful to let her WONDER what I'll do if she decides to stay in contact with him, or to clearly lay out the consequences.

Quote:

Translation: "I don't know what I want" means "I'm not ready to give up my affair yet" similar to "I'll quit smoking next year".


I agree completely. She's still clinging to it, although I can see enough reality sinking in so part of her knows it's a losing play.

Quote:

"But, Daaa-aaad, I'm Jesus Christ !"

This concludes your obscure Bill Cosby reference for the day.


LOL! Alright, who here gets that reference?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/15/09 02:48 PM
I do!!! grin
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/15/09 11:38 PM
G'day again Future,

Quote:
I'm not really sure what to do here.


Yes you are.

Quote:
I've said enough things to her


You've said enough things. OK. What have you done?

Quote:
...that I think she knows I will not tolerate her continued contact with OM.


How long will you continue to tolerate it?

You may or may not see this mate, but you are tacitly tolerating her continued contact with OM but hanging out with her during her affair.

So far she has no reason to believe you won't tolerate continued contact with OM, since, you're continuing to hang out with her, do family things i.e. meet all of the emotional needs that OM can't meet.

I know you're hurting son, and that you love her. I have been through all of the hell that you currently find yourself in.

Puppy is right, this is a chicken and the egg thing and your wife is very unlikely to end her affair before you've gone dark and shown her what life without you is really like. Right now she is comfortably uncomfortable.

I know it's tough.

Quote:
I can't decide if it's more powerful to let her WONDER what I'll do if she decides to stay in contact with him, or to clearly lay out the consequences.


The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

What is working?

What is not working?

She's in contact with OM and you are also there for her. She doesn't need to WONDER what you will do because you've established a track record of being there for her and she's comfortable with the routine.

Your wife is actively adulterous and will respond to nothing but hard consequences.

Simply telling her what the consequences will be will likely be completely ineffective and be interpreted as lecturing/controlling/manipulative.

Telling a smoker that they will get lung cancer and heart disease does not make them stop smoking.

If they actually suffer a heart attack or lung cancer and are lucky enough to survive, they are MUCH more likely to do whatever it takes to get help.

You and I both know this.

Sorry to wheel out the smoking analogy again. Hang in there Future.
Posted By: antlers Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/16/09 09:24 PM
Hey futureunknown,

I saw this on this board a while back..."there's a lot to be said for letting her know you respect yourself enough to let go of the people that don't value you."

You are a good man.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/16/09 10:07 PM
GH31-

I do appreciate the 2x4s, and I know I need them on occassion. I am trying to keep myself at a distance. This is a test for my W, to see how far back she's come. She was the one who said she needs to end it with OM if we're going to work on us, and I've made it clear the alternative is divorce. My boundaries have been soft over the last couple months as I've tried to rebuild our R. Everything seems to be coming to a head right now. I absolutely realize my W may still try to be wishy washy, and try to keep OM in the picture. I need to let this play out just a bit longer before I drop the big hammer and really go away. Given how we've been talking, it would seem random and moody to just disappear now.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/16/09 10:07 PM
Thanks antlers!
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/17/09 04:19 AM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
GH31-

I do appreciate the 2x4s, and I know I need them on occassion. I am trying to keep myself at a distance. This is a test for my W, to see how far back she's come. She was the one who said she needs to end it with OM if we're going to work on us, and I've made it clear the alternative is divorce. My boundaries have been soft over the last couple months as I've tried to rebuild our R. Everything seems to be coming to a head right now. I absolutely realize my W may still try to be wishy washy, and try to keep OM in the picture. I need to let this play out just a bit longer before I drop the big hammer and really go away. Given how we've been talking, it would seem random and moody to just disappear now.


I disagree. You keep saying "I've made it clear." Your WORDS may or may not be clear to her, but your ACTIONS are anything but.

Your wife is a sick pyromaniac, playing with fire. Do you really think it's wise to "let it play out" what she does with those matches?

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/17/09 04:49 AM
Quote:

I disagree. You keep saying "I've made it clear." Your WORDS may or may not be clear to her, but your ACTIONS are anything but.


This is so bloody hard. I have sent her a strong message that if things don't change, I'm pushing for a divorce, but I also understand what you're saying. My actions are not clear. My W is very charming, and we get along so well. It's very easy for me to just enjoy that and forget about OM, especially when we're with our three kids, who we love so much. The thing with OM is so far out of my sight that it's hard to keep it in the front of my head, when here she is with me and our kids, and he's thousands of miles away. I feel like I have every advantage over him, so on the one hand I see him as no threat, on the other hand I have to realize he very much is.

Quote:

Your wife is a sick pyromaniac, playing with fire. Do you really think it's wise to "let it play out" what she does with those matches?


You're right Puppy. It's hard to take a strong stand when she's here being so nice to me. In my gut I know she doesn't want to lose me, but she's gotten addicted to the thrill of her international affair. I need to make it clear I won't tolerate this any more, and our M is on the line.
Posted By: Dia Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/17/09 05:23 AM
FWIW, your W will never re-bond emotionally with you to any great degree of depth as long as she had OM in the pic. Charming may be nice, but isn't deep love better?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/17/09 01:31 PM
Future,

I know this is hard. I had to go thru it, remember? Worst 3 months of my life, and it took TWO MORE YEARS for my wife and I to FINALLY get to a really good place.

I only have a minute, as I have to get to my son's baseball game, but I wanted to say that there's nothing wrong with making your time with your kids as positive as possible, for THEIR sake. Just watch the interactions between you and your wife, when the kids AREN'T involved, and try to pull back and let your ACTIONS say "I'm a civil guy; but make no mistake, I am NOT okay with this."

Peace,

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/17/09 08:25 PM
Quote:

FWIW, your W will never re-bond emotionally with you to any great degree of depth as long as she had OM in the pic. Charming may be nice, but isn't deep love better?


Absolutely! Charming just makes it tough to keep my boundaries in place. Ugh!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/17/09 08:41 PM
Quote:

I only have a minute, as I have to get to my son's baseball game, but I wanted to say that there's nothing wrong with making your time with your kids as positive as possible, for THEIR sake. Just watch the interactions between you and your wife, when the kids AREN'T involved, and try to pull back and let your ACTIONS say "I'm a civil guy; but make no mistake, I am NOT okay with this."


I had to coach my son's basketball team this morning. They rock! The other team didn't know what hit them. Amazing to see a bunch of 8 and 9 year old kids start to play as a team!

After the game my W wanted to talk to me. She was acting very close to me. Her walls are coming down, and although I'm amazed, I'm keeping my distance watching it happen. She said she can see I've changed, and she likes who I am, and how we are together now. I smiled and said "I like you too." She smiled back and said thanks. She said she needs to see if our changes will stick. She said she needs to be sure before she makes any decisions. I saw that as stalling, as per the observations by others here. I said "I understand what you're going through emotionally, but I'm not going to live in some crazy open marriage." She said "Oh no, absolutely, trust me, I hate where I am. I can't stay here long, but I need a little time." Still stalling, so I said "I'm at a fork in the road here W." She said "I know."

I have to go out of town for my job all of this coming week, so I said "Well, you got this week dropped into your lap, so use it." She said okay. She asked me for a hug, so I gave her one, then the kids and I drove away.

We'll see...
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/18/09 01:04 AM
Im glad that you told her that you wont be in an open M! I think thats a big one. And the quote from antlers was excellent. Maybe you could even use it on her.

I also agree that shes stalling, hopefully shes just a little scared. But really, what shes keeping the OM around as a back-up plan in case your changes arent for real? Thats not how it works! Hopefully the next week gives her the time she needs. Everyone preaches patience, but dont give her that benefit until shes ended this A and deserves it!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/18/09 03:10 AM
Thanks bluerain. Yeah, I've finally declared my truth. Been a long time coming, but I think it was good that I waited until I saw a big crack in her armor, or it probably would have just bounced off. I think I got in. I am getting such good vibes from her now. This hasn't just been a journey for me. She has grown so much and it's great to see. My only real worry is that OM will do something drastic, like fly here while I'm gone to try to win her back. From what I can tell so far, he's a bit of a coward, so I doubt he'll do that, and even if he did, I think she might just see it as weak and desperate. I'm feeling good about myself and my situation.
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/18/09 06:39 AM
Hello again Future,

I'm not sorry about the 2x4s and neither is Puppy.

I am however, sorry that you have to find yourself on this board.

You know you need them; understand that it's not an act of aggression against you - we really do want to see your family put back together.

Quote:
This is so bloody hard.


I know. It's Hell; both Puppy and I realise that and have lived it.

Quote:
I have sent her a strong message that if things don't change, I'm pushing for a divorce


You haven't son. You've sent her an equivocal message. Your actions have said anything but what you have written, from where we are sat.

Quote:
but I also understand what you're saying. My actions are not clear.


See above.

Quote:
My W is very charming, and we get along so well.


Your W has to be to ensure she gets both her family and thrill needs met from you and OM. How well did you get on before she realised that OM couldn't/wouldn't meet all of her needs as she first believed?

My W is also extremely charming and beguiling. I have to be very careful not to mistake charming for manipulative i.e. so that my W can ensure she gets all of her needs met from me whilst taking me for a fool at the same time. I would not say the same thing about anyone else's wife on here but I know enough about my own to have arrived at this conclusion.

Please proceed with caution Future and ensure you're not on the receiving end of some very cleverly calculated smokeblowing. This is the toughest thing you will have to deal with in your life. Enforce those boundaries that you've laid down. I bitterly regret not enforcing the ones I laid down to my own W and have paid for it dearly.

best

GH31`
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/18/09 03:12 PM
Quote:

I'm not sorry about the 2x4s and neither is Puppy.

You know you need them; understand that it's not an act of aggression against you - we really do want to see your family put back together.


Don't be. Of course I know there's no aggression. It is just what I need.

Quote:

You haven't son. You've sent her an equivocal message. Your actions have said anything but what you have written, from where we are sat.


You are right. For the last couple months my actions have been very much not clear. She even said I was sending her mixed messages. Yesterday was the first time in a while that I felt I was acting with clarity, and I feel good about it today.

Quote:

Your W has to be to ensure she gets both her family and thrill needs met from you and OM. How well did you get on before she realised that OM couldn't/wouldn't meet all of her needs as she first believed?

My W is also extremely charming and beguiling. I have to be very careful not to mistake charming for manipulative i.e. so that my W can ensure she gets all of her needs met from me whilst taking me for a fool at the same time. I would not say the same thing about anyone else's wife on here but I know enough about my own to have arrived at this conclusion.

Please proceed with caution Future and ensure you're not on the receiving end of some very cleverly calculated smokeblowing. This is the toughest thing you will have to deal with in your life. Enforce those boundaries that you've laid down. I bitterly regret not enforcing the ones I laid down to my own W and have paid for it dearly.


My W has always known she wasn't getting everything she needs from OM, since he's so far way, so she has always been willing to take whatever she could get from me, maintaining this ridiculous line of faithfulness to OM. She thought as long as we weren't having sex, she was being faithful to OM. Funny stuff actually! I get satisfaction thinking about him so far away, knowing that I'm right here all the time, sharing our kids with her, while he's left to believe her long distance assurances that she really loves him. Kind of pathetic actually. I haven't ever really felt sorry for OM, but it must be misery for him! Ha!

Before I knew about OM, my W was manipulating me in a very ugly way to get all her needs met, so I sadly know what she's capable of. After I found out, I shut down from her almost entirely. Coparenting our three little kids together made it impossible for me to go completely dark, but I was almost there. She just kicked into independent mode, believing that she was fine taking care of herself until she and OM could be together in some future bliss. She acted aloof from me, as though she was queen of the world. Her emotions started oscillating wildly last spring, and I knew her fantasy was starting to fall apart. That's when I saw my chance, and I started to offer little bits of myself to her. A little conversation here, a compliment there, always happy, always smiling and joking around with her. I was trying to rebuild her attraction to me, so it's not like my actions have been completely without purpose. The problem was that I was getting myself emotionally tangled in, and my detachment was faltering, and that's when my message started to become unclear.

Last year when she was manipulating me my gut told me something was not right. She was acting so sure of herself, and she would be cold to me one minute and warm the next. Now she's acting very unsure of herself, and I can read her well enough to know she's truly conflicted now. Still, I am trying to keep my distance and be cautious. What she says when I get back from my trip will be important. If she says she ended it with OM, I will be insisting she do what I need to give me the assurance I need, as in transparency.

Thank you for taking time to help me and give support.
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/18/09 09:48 PM
Good morning Future,

You're more than welcome for the support. I really do feel for you because I've walked in your shoes.

Quote:
She acted aloof from me, as though she was queen of the world.


Mine was exactly the same, acting like Queen of La-La-Land. She occasioned huge amounts of hurt on me and even more on OM with innumerable lies, and, by getting pregnant to me. Then when OM kicked her to the kerb she was making noises about getting our baby aborted so she could go to him and she had sex with him whilst pregnant with our son also.

There's nothing that these women won't do when they turn into wayward skanks and their brains get flooded with love chemicals.

Please hang in there.
Posted By: wifeleft2009 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/18/09 10:33 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Thanks bluerain. Yeah, I've finally declared my truth. Been a long time coming, but I think it was good that I waited until I saw a big crack in her armor, or it probably would have just bounced off. I think I got in. I am getting such good vibes from her now. This hasn't just been a journey for me. She has grown so much and it's great to see. My only real worry is that OM will do something drastic, like fly here while I'm gone to try to win her back. From what I can tell so far, he's a bit of a coward, so I doubt he'll do that, and even if he did, I think she might just see it as weak and desperate. I'm feeling good about myself and my situation.


you know the odd thing i see when I read many of these posts or even see some of it locally the men and women who go after married people often times are coward... not because im pissed that they do this but its the way they are idk if thay cant go out on there own and pick up the opposite sex on there own and they need to look for a place where they can slide into a fault or a problem area
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/19/09 02:11 AM
Yeah, I can't imagine having that on my conscience for the rest of my life. In my case, OM is a man who was aggressively coming after my W when she was still living at home with me and our three little kids, all of which he knew about. Now I know my W was just as guilty, and was feeding him a bunch of lies about the state of our M, but she was very troubled. Why didn't he say "I'm flattered, but I don't want to get in the middle of your marriage. If you decide to leave, and you get your head clear of all this, give me a call and we'll see"? Because he's a lonely coward, who took advantage of a troubled woman.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/19/09 03:31 AM
Quote:

There's nothing that these women won't do when they turn into wayward skanks and their brains get flooded with love chemicals.


Wow GH31, don't hold back, tell how you really feel! LOL!

I was also amazed how my W heaped pain on me without a care in the world. I try and try to put myself in her shoes. I mean, I was pretty miserable in my M too, so what if I had met someone I was just ga-ga over? Would I just throw my W under bus, and act like her pain was just an irritant to me? I have to say, I can't see myself doing it. Either that means I'm cut from different cloth, or it means I can't appreciate how whacked out their brains get. It's so bizarre.
Posted By: v1olin Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/19/09 03:40 AM
I could not do it either. Not even after sexual starvation for the last five years. I dont think I could ever cheat.
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/19/09 06:40 AM
Hi Future,

Quote:
Wow GH31, don't hold back, tell how you really feel! LOL!


Possibly a little too emotive here. For about the first year of posting here I would not have written anything like this. I have had a gutful from my W the last two years, so many lies, so much disrespect and the betrayal. This after having sex with me all the time and getting pregnant.

I also won't make or accept any excuses for the way they or I behave.

Please ignore any bitterness and rage which may emerge in the odd post.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/19/09 04:10 PM
Originally Posted By: v1olin
I could not do it either. Not even after sexual starvation for the last five years. I dont think I could ever cheat.


I hope we all realize that even our wayward (or formerly wayward) spouses would have written that, prior to their affairs.

Let that one sink in a bit. smirk

In his phenomenal book, "His Needs, Her Needs," Dr. Harley chooses his sub-title very carefully, I can only assume: "Building an Affair-Proof Marriage." The book was meant to be pre-emptive.

The best we could ALL do would be to continue to do the hard work necessary to gain self-awareness, and to make a conscious effort to meet our mate's emotional and physical needs.

Puppy
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/19/09 04:11 PM
P.S.

Oh, and Coach, I expect at LEAST two whistles for that one. wink
Posted By: GH31 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/19/09 09:45 PM
Hi Future, I thought about your sitch last night and about your thread and want to apologize to you for any offense my posts may have caused.

I need to remember that this is your thread and leave my own cynicism out of it.

best,
GH31
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/20/09 04:46 AM
Quote:

I hope we all realize that even our wayward (or formerly wayward) spouses would have written that, prior to their affairs.

Let that one sink in a bit.

In his phenomenal book, "His Needs, Her Needs," Dr. Harley chooses his sub-title very carefully, I can only assume: "Building an Affair-Proof Marriage." The book was meant to be pre-emptive.

The best we could ALL do would be to continue to do the hard work necessary to gain self-awareness, and to make a conscious effort to meet our mate's emotional and physical needs.


Actually I wasn't talking about the cheating, I was talking about the cold indifference to the betrayed spouse's pain. That's what I can't imagine myself doing, but who knows?

I've been thinking a lot about this, and here's the best I can make of it. Add together years of unhappiness in M, lots of pent up anger, resentful feelings of obligation to marital vows, love chemicals over a new love interest, and extreme guilt over breaking the M vows. The result is an incredible shift in the way the brain of a WAW works, AKA the alien pod we've all experienced.

It's not JUST the love chemicals. Usually when someone is involved in a new love affair, they're happy. They're nice to everyone. In the wayward wife, they are viciously cruel to their betrayed husband, so something else is going on. I think it really is worth studying as a pyschological phenomenon.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/20/09 04:48 AM
Quote:

Hi Future, I thought about your sitch last night and about your thread and want to apologize to you for any offense my posts may have caused.

I need to remember that this is your thread and leave my own cynicism out of it.


No worries GH31. From what you've described, you've been through hell and back, worse than myself and many others here. My W has always maintained a line of kindness back to me through this whole thing. That's the main thing that gives me hope.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/20/09 05:01 AM
So tonight I'm on my trip. Stuck in the airport, and I see the football game on. My W and I love football, it's a fun interest we've shared over the years. One of her favorite teams was playing tonight, so I text her after a spectacular play. She texts back and thanks me, as she didn't know who was playing. She starts watching the game at her place and we text back and forth a few times before my flight is ready to leave.

This would normally be a fun thing to do with anyone else, but I don't know why, it felt like I was pursuing tonight. I wanted to go pretty dark during this trip while she ponders the consequences of her decisions, and there I go texting her the first night I'm gone. Just seemed so harmless, and I hate holding myself back from doing something fun like texting her about something I know she'd be into. She replied very positively. Why do I think I screwed up?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/20/09 02:06 PM
Cuz you probably did. But it's not a big deal. I would've sent the one, maybe two, then suddenly had something to do.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/21/09 05:22 AM
At least she is always the one who texts last. Now that my work has started, I won't have time to call or text, and there is no cell signal where I work, so that should force me to stay distant!

Tonight as I drove back to the hotel, I saw she had sent me a long text excited about her football team, and telling me about the kids. Sure doesn't seem like she's trying to break away. Was too late to text her back, so as I said, my circumstances are helping me there.

I wish a former WAW would come on here and give me an idea of where my W's head is at. She was so consumed by her A with OM. Is she really turning back to me? Is she just forcing herself to try to see how it feels? I guess all will be made clear in time.

My neighbor told me a few days ago he found out his W is having an A. He's doing okay, but I can so sympathise with him. Funny, I always thought their M had the things my M was missing. A year ago when my M was crumbling, a friend of mine who got divorced a few years ago was shocked, as he always thought what my W and I had was what his M was always missing. Guess you never can tell.
Posted By: v1olin Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/21/09 06:16 PM
SO, I know that you two have been to mediation right? How long do you have before your divorce will be final? It looks like mine will be final after we are done with mediation. I dont think it will be over night but maybe a week or two after?
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/21/09 09:00 PM
Future, you can go look at Dia or Sandi2's thread, at least I think that it was Sandi2... Sandi is really good about offering advice, Ill bet if you asked, she could come take a look for you. Dia too.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/22/09 01:20 AM
Hi v1olin-

Yeah, we've been to four mediation sessions so far. First one was back in February. It's been slow going, because we take turns stalling. In the state we live in, we go to mediation to come to an agreement on legal separation, which has to be approved by the court. No lawyers are involved, just the mediator. Then we have to wait one year before either of us can convert it to a no fault divorce. Given my situation, I could just sue my W for divorce any time I want, but that would cost ten times more. Our state is trying to discourage divorce by doing it this way, and I think it's a good thing.

During our last mediation session, we together told the mediator not to prepare the final papers. I couldn't ask for a more positive sign than that.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/22/09 01:25 AM
Hi bluerain-

Sandi has commented on my situation in the past, but it's been a while. I've been thinking lately I sure wouldn't mind getting her opinion now.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/23/09 04:11 AM
Got off work a bit early today, so I called to talk to the kids. Talked to the W a little too. She's really sick, doctor says she has the swine flu. I said "Wow, I sure picked a lousy week to go out of town!" In her new kind positive way she replies, sounding like death warmed over, "We're doing just fine, don't worry about us." She's so great like that now, so different than how she used to be. We chit chatted about a couple other things, then I said I had to go meet the guys for dinner. She lingered on the phone for another minute or two, then she said her throat hurts to talk so we said our goodbyes.

You know, I've been thinking about this. What do I miss about my W? I don't in any way miss many of the ways our M was. We were resentful toward each other. We had walls up everywhere. Every little issue between us just caused us to collapse in defeat one more little bit. My W herself was selfish, self absorbed, she showed me almost no appreciation and no affection. We were good together in some ways though. We shared some interests, like football, and we loved movies, and we love our kids. We genuinely like each other too. I think she is a great combination of intellect, humor, and fun. I always looked forward to getting her opinion on things I was going through at work, or on politics, or world affairs.

But really, what I've come to realize, is the biggest reason I want to be together with my W is because of who she is now. It's like all her best attributes have been amplified many times, and her bad attributes have significantly shrunk, or disappeared altogether. In many ways I feel like I'm courting someone entirely new, and I really like her. This gives me great hope that we can have a new, much better M.
Posted By: v1olin Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/23/09 04:13 AM
Good luck to you Future!
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/23/09 04:55 AM
Future, I think that thats a great realization for you. Have you talked to a DB coach?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/23/09 05:01 AM
Hi bluerain, no I haven't gotten a coach yet. Money is really tight right now. Maybe I should give it a try. I guess I've been hoping the collective wisdom on this board is as good as a DB coach!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/24/09 05:34 AM
My W called me tonight so the kids could talk to me. My youngest daughter was crying because she misses me. Had a nice talk with all the kids, then I told my W I was coming home a day early. She thought I would immediately expect to have the kids back when I got home, but I said "I know you might have made plans with them, so no big deal." She sounded off. She asks if she can call me later when she gets the kids to bed. I said sure.

So she calls a while later and explains how she has some plans already made with the kids for the weekend, since I wasn't supposed to be back until late Sunday night, but she offered for me to get them Sunday afternoon. I said thanks. I notice she isn't sounding right, and it's not just her flu. I finally asked "Are you ok?" She starts crying and says "No." I asked "What's wrong?" She says "We'll talk about it when you get back."

So here we go. I don't know what's going on. Given that she's been texting and calling me while I've been away, I sure wasn't thinking she was going to tell me our M was over for good. The last time she acted like this was when OM and her had a big fallout and they "broke up", so my gut tells me she told OM it was over and she's in emotional crisis. I don't feel I should be very supportive of her as she goes through this, but what SHOULD I do?

Of course it's also possible she was crying because she decided we're done for good and she's so dreading telling me. Last year when she told me she was leaving me, she was strong as could be. No crying, no emotion, just facts. If that's where she's at, she's handling it different this time.

I decided I wasn't going to sit in my hotel room and worry all evening about it, so I went out with the guys to have some beers. Had a great time joking and laughing, and I really didn't worry about my W or M much. I actually feel kind of numb about it all.

Funny thinking about how my life hinges on what is waiting for me when I get back home. One thing is certain though. My kids love me. They miss me so much, and are so looking forward to seeing me. Felt great to get that from them over the phone.
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/24/09 05:40 AM
Quote:
Of course it's also possible she was crying because she decided we're done for good and she's so dreading telling me. Last year when she told me she was leaving me, she was strong as could be. No crying, no emotion, just facts. If that's where she's at, she's handling it different this time.
Could be good or bad. Try not to put many emotional eggs into this basket. I remember the last R talk we had -- perhaps the last ever before we D -- and I got the "I never loved you" statement again and she choked up a bit because I was "forcing" her to say it again.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/24/09 05:51 AM
I'm trying to just hang back and wait and see. I'm succeeding mostly. Been at this for a while, and I'm getting better at it.

During the last several R talks we've had, my W told me she still oves me, so I'd be surprised to get something like "I never loved you." We've had a great time lately, and she's been treating me with more affection than I've gotten in the past five years. She's also been giving me "Remember when..." stories about our past, good happy stories, including ones about sex.

Would be quite a 180 for her to drop the final bomb on me, but I'm so numb from this whole ride, I don't know what to expect.

Trying to keep my guard up.
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/24/09 06:11 AM
Yes. I can't relate. My W is so cold towards me. It's as if she's trying to wipe away the past 13 years. I know it's standard operating procedure for a WAS, but it hurts nonetheless.
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/25/09 08:00 PM
Hi future, I think that I would be really surprised to find out that she had dropped the bomb.

But that being said, try, try, try to stay a little detached! Stranger things have happened. And if she scares herself, she might pull-back (probably only temporarily) but just remember that this is part of a long, long process, that for you guys at least is heading in the right direction!

ClingingtoHope, it seems like your sitch is still fairly new, so its totally normal for your W to be acting like that. Give DBing time- it works on many, many levels.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/26/09 04:13 AM
Hi bluerain-

I am managing to stay a little detached, but it's getting harder and harder. Got back from my trip. W told me she was crying on the phone because she took the kids to see "Where the Wild Things Are" and at the end when Max has to say goodbye to his friend our youngest daughter started wailing and crying out "Daddy, daddy!" Was tragically sad I guess. Strange thing is, she called right afterward to let my daughter talk to me. I'm so glad I was available to take that call. W was fine during that call. Then she called me back a couple hours later after kids were in bed and that's when she broke down and started crying, but wouldn't tell me why.

Before I left on my trip she told me she needs more time. I think that's a total cop out. She said she needs to see if we can stay like this, rather than go back to the way we were. I do understand that, but there won't be any more "we" if she doesn't completely end it with OM.

We just spent the night texting back and forth about the Sunday night game, initiated by her. I am almost positive she will finally take that last step toward me if she feels me going away. Is that what I'm going to have to do? Can't she project ahead just a little bit and see the two possibilities? Why is it so easy for me to feel the tragic loss if our M and family don't make it, and yet she seems so blind to it? Or is she just in denial?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/26/09 04:14 AM
ClingingToHope, I agree with bluerain, you just need to give it more time. From your signature, I see you're about five months behind me. Five months ago my W was still very distant from me and was totally wrapped up with OM. Amazing how time changes things.
Posted By: Dia Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/26/09 04:21 AM
FYI - the 'remember when?" stuff is kind of like temperature taking. It's longing for past times when things were good. Stay detached, but this is possibly a good sign.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/26/09 04:41 AM
Thanks Dia. Everyone is saying "Stay detached!" I am trying, and I think I'm doing okay. I've been at this so long now, I'm actually pretty good at it, but it seems a day doesn't go by now without my W reaching out to me in one way or another. Makes detachment hard to maintain.

I agree totally about the "Remember when?" stuff. Nothing has seemed as much of a sea change in my W as when that started a couple months ago. Her face and demeanor are light and happy when she brings those memories up, and she wants to share the memories with me. That and the fact that she unpacked our family portaits, with me in them, and has them prominently displayed in the living room at her place.
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/26/09 01:55 PM
Future, thanks for the encouragement. As you know, it's just so hard to talk to a WAS or look them in the face when all you see is cold calculation.

Thanks to this site and support on it I've pulled back from a few rash decisions and I've finally adopted rule No. 1 as the rule of my life -- no pursuit, move on.

I spent this weekend in Chicago with an old HS friend and then Sunday in Cincy. The Chicago trip was such fun I'm planning on going back in December or January.

The holidays don't look so daunting now either. I'll find a way to get through them.

I am psyched that your W seems to be coming back to you. I really, really hope that you make it. The pictures are a great sign, I hope.

On Friday, when I went over to my old house to see sick kids, W had packed up even more of my stuff, including pictures. She's still in the "erasing the past" stage. I'm leaving it for a couple of days just because I don't like that she does that. It's as if she wants to put me on the defensive the moment I walk in.

So although I still Cling To Hope, I'm emptying an investment account to retain a L. It's time to be prepared for all contingencies.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/26/09 03:21 PM
Quote:

As you know, it's just so hard to talk to a WAS or look them in the face when all you see is cold calculation.


Yes, I do know what you mean. Look right back at that face with as much confidence and happiness as you can muster. Let her think you are happily moving on, and just fine about it. Was hard for me at first, when she acted like she was happy we were both moving on so well. Slowly I noticed her starting to reach out just a little bit. She seemed to be around me more, and wanted to talk to me, wanted my opinion on things and wanted to share her little life events with me, especially about the kids. Movement was almost imperceptibly slow, making it so frustrating.

Quote:

I spent this weekend in Chicago with an old HS friend and then Sunday in Cincy. The Chicago trip was such fun I'm planning on going back in December or January.


Awesome! This is exactly what you should be doing. Progess will happen on your W's timetable, not yours, so at least try to enjoy your freedom in the mean time.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/27/09 05:22 PM
All three of our kids came down with H1N1. Not worried though, they're doing okay. Was up most of the night with them. Texted W very early this morning asking her to bring medicine and supplies over before she went to work. W is worried and she doesn't like being away from the kids when they're so sick, so she got up right then, got the supplies, and brought them over. She took care of the kids for a couple hours so I could get some sleep. She made coffee, gave the kids breakfast, and did laundry. Was weird having her in the house like that.
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/27/09 07:08 PM
Wouldn't it be strange to be reconciled by pig flu?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/27/09 10:01 PM
That would probably be a first in the history of DBing! I do think my W being here and taking care of things has made her feel a bit nostalgic but I don't think that'll bring her back. I imagine she was anxious about being in here like that, so she had her walls up this morning, at least until my youngest started messing with her hair at the breakfast table, and got her looking ridiculous. I couldn't help it, I started laughing at her, and she playfully pushed me in protest of my laughing. So hard to maintain detachment in the face of times like that.
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/29/09 07:48 PM
Hi Future, how are the kiddos?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 10/29/09 11:44 PM
Their fevers are gone, and they're full of energy, which is good. Back to school tomorrow. I've heard H1N1 can have a boomerang effect, so I hope that doesn't happen. I'm now sick myself, but not too bad. Thanks for asking!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/09/09 03:37 AM
I really need some support. I am at the end of my rope, and I feel like I'm going to do something rash. If you look back a bit in this thread, my W and I last talked a few weeks ago, and I told her I was at a fork in the road. She said she likes how I've changed, and she likes how we are now, but that she doesn't trust it yet and needs more time. I told her I could understand that, but I wouldn't live in some crazy open marriage, as we had just delayed our legal separation under the assumption that our M still had hope. She is now stalling big time. Granted, we were all very sick for the last couple weeks, and only now are we back in good health.

On Halloween, I was being quite distant regarding my plans for trick or treating with the kids, and she called me on it. She said she knows when something is bothering me. I said it's a lot bigger than our plans for Halloween. She said she knows, and that she appreciated my patience while she was sick, and that we need to talk, but then she started stalling more, saying that I shouldn't deal with it when I'm still sick, and that then I won't want to deal with it before my marathon, etc, etc, etc. I said I'm fine and I don't care about any of that.

I'm patiently waiting for her to initiate a R talk, as I don't think I should extend myself to do so. Her demeanor and body language toward me is very positive, so why won't she talk? She is reaching out to me in some ways, asking me about my life, being supportive about the marathon, very complimentary toward me. My son's basketball team I'm coaching is doing awesome, and she said "H, you are a great coach." She says she is so proud of me training for the marathon, and she wishes it was closer so she could go and bring the kids to watch. Each time we part, she makes sure to give a little special connection with the goodbye, and initiates physical contact, i.e. hand on my arm, playfully pushing my shoulder, etc. WHAT THE F*** IS GOING ON????

I am keeping my distance, and actually blowing her off. I can't take it any more. I've got nothing left. Something inside of me just refuses to bring up the R talk. From where I sit, her refusal to bring it up says everything I need to know. She hasn't broken it off with OM and she doesn't want to. At this point I want to just assume she's straight out telling me that, and I'm acting accordingly. I'm distancing myself, and I want to initiate D proceedings. Does she really think I'd tolerate her behavior forever? Maybe so, since I've never really called her on it before.

Once again, I'm stuck between DBing my WAW, and dealing with a wayward wife. I think it's about time I treated her according to her behavior. I went to a party last night thrown by a woman who, if I had to guess, I would say is interested in me. There are better options out there. Why don't I just leave my screwed up W and M behind and find something new?
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/09/09 03:49 AM
Well future, its nice to see you! maybe not like this, though... I guess that you are in a place to hear this again, antlers said it on here a few pages ago-

"there's a lot to be said for letting her know you respect yourself enough to let go of the people that don't value you."

I think that maybe you should read up on the LRT. Im sorry that things seem to have gotten a little tougher, but it will get better.
Posted By: antlers Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/09/09 03:56 AM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Why don't I just leave my screwed up W and M behind and find something new?


Because you still care about your "screwed up W and M" ! And you still care about your family. You are doing good man! Keep it up...if you can. Only you know for sure how long you can keep doing it. If you give it all you've got, for as long as you possibly can...then you will know for certain that you did everything in your power to keep your marriage and your family intact. If it winds up that you are reconciled...then great. If it winds up otherwise...you will know that you fought for something that you believed in...and somebody else ended it.
Posted By: antlers Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/09/09 03:59 AM
Originally Posted By: bluerain
antlers said it on here a few pages ago-

"there's a lot to be said for letting her know you respect yourself enough to let go of the people that don't value you."



And I do believe that just as much as I believe that the grass grows, the wind blows, and the sky is blue.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/09/09 10:50 PM
antlers and bluerain-

Thanks for being here. I was a wreck last night. Still am today as well. I do need to be ready to let it all go, and admit that my W, while not wanting to lose me, will not recommit to me and our M.

But... I also have to appreciate how far I've come. One of the rules of DBing is to carefully think out every move. As so many here have said over and over, she will not decide to come back to me until she feels my loss. I think I'm almost there. I have so little left inside me at this point. It's been over a year since the bomb. As she's getting closer to me, I'm going away more and more. I am exhausted by the game of it all. I want a real R where I get something back other than confusion and heartache. There are so many nice people out there.

I think I'm detaching more, and that's good. For me, detaching and throwing in the towel seem to tied together though. I've been in limbo for so long now, I don't want it any more. Life is too short.
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/10/09 04:36 AM
I realized after all of my own personal growth that once I saw my H, and realized that he was still the exact same person that he was when he left that thats not what I wanted anymore. I want to be the center of someones attention, not second to a career, or their freinds and he couldnt do that for me anymore.

I hope that you are feeling better. I agree with antlers, if you want to keep going, then keep going, but you have given this an amazing effort, and at some point You have to decide when you are done. Either way, we are here for you.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/11/09 09:03 PM
I've finally come to realize I need a BIG change of direction. I have squandered so many opportunities. I very well could be reconciling right now had I been smarter and stronger. I'm trying not to beat myself up, as I know I've done some things right, but I also want to STOP doing what doesn't work, and see if I can finally turn this thing around.

A recent post from Puppy on another thread hit me right between the eyes. I've been getting nothing but crumbs from my W. So she's nice to me, BIG DEAL! The fact that she's having an A with OM trumps all our nice little day to day interactions by a wide margin.

The frustrating thing is, I'm starting to see that my W WANTS to reconcile! I'm just not giving her enough reason to! Here is what she has said to me:


  • I still love you.
  • For the first six months I thought I could do this, but now I barely make it through day to day.
  • If we were to reconcile, we should probably sell our house and buy a new one to start over.
  • I love to witness how great a father you are.
  • There is definitely a connection between us.
  • I can see you're different, I just need more time to trust it.
  • When asked straight out "Do you want a divorce?" her answer was "I don't know." Is this a good thing?

How many men here would love to hear such things from their WAW? However, she has also said this:

  • I still feel pressure from you. She is telling me to BACK OFF! She wants to be the one to pursue. She is TELLING me how to DB!
  • There is an emptiness inside me where feelings for you should be, and I don't know if that will ever change. I think this is lack of fundamental respect because I haven't really called her on her crap behavior. Given how I failed in my M in so many ways, I didn't feel I had the right to. I now believe I was wrong in that belief. Is it too late?
  • I can't regret my R with OM. She doesn't think we can ever be right again because of this. I need to somehow let her know we could get through this without appearing weak and needy and desperate, i.e. "I don't care what you did, I'll forgive anything if you'll just come back to me." Blech! I think a good approach might be to ask her if she'd rather see our marriage destroyed and our children suffer or find the courage to make herself vulnerable to me again and trust that I won't hold her actions over her.
  • I can't see spending the rest of my life with you. When she said this it had the "vibe" of some last wisps of fog in her mind. I'm not ignoring it though, I'm trying to listen to her and hear what she's really saying. I think what she means is "I'm worried that I'll have to give up too much of what I want in order to be your wife."
  • When asked straight out "Do you want a divorce?" her answer was "I don't know." Is this a bad thing?

I'm really just thinking out loud here. I'd welcome any comments or suggestions.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/11/09 09:16 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


[*]There is an emptiness inside me where feelings for you should be, and I don't know if that will ever change. I think this is lack of fundamental respect because I haven't really called her on her crap behavior.


Possibly. But I also take it emphatically as "And you WILL never fill that emptiness inside of you where feelings for me are supposed to be, as long as you are in contact with another man who's not your husband."

This is a classic chicken-and-the-egg about infidelity, Future. It's basically "I can't give up OM because I don't have feelings for you, my husband", and the reason she can't get those feelings back with you, her husband, is because she hasn't given up OM! Any good MC worth their salt will try to get a wayward spouse to end all contact with OM/OW, as the thing to do FOR THEMSELVES, while they try to decide about their marriage. Because so long as their brain is chemically affected by their contacts with the OM/OW, they cannot possibly make good, dispassionate decisions for themselves.

We talk about "cake-eating" a lot around here, but I prefer the analogy of "plate-spinning" more. Remember that guy that used to come out on the old Ed Sullivan Show, or on Bozo's Circus? And he'd keep all those plates spinning on those sticks?

This is what waywards do, especially wayward women. She wants to keep her FutureUnknown plate spinning, just enough, while she works at spinning her OM plate. And she goes back and forth between the two.

Refresh my memory, how long have you been at this again??

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/11/09 09:58 PM
Hi Puppy-

Quote:

This is a classic chicken-and-the-egg about infidelity, Future. It's basically "I can't give up OM because I don't have feelings for you, my husband", and the reason she can't get those feelings back with you, her husband, is because she hasn't given up OM! Any good MC worth their salt will try to get a wayward spouse to end all contact with OM/OW, as the thing to do FOR THEMSELVES, while they try to decide about their marriage. Because so long as their brain is chemically affected by their contacts with the OM/OW, they cannot possibly make good, dispassionate decisions for themselves.


That exact thing has occurred to me as well. However, she's been telling me her feelings for me are mostly gone for a several years now, long before her A started with OM. However, I still think it was due to lack of respect, because as our M started to fall apart, I acted very weak and needy, which drove her even further away, and eroded her respect for me. At this point though, I think her respect for me is much restored, so I agree, she'll never be able to know what she feels for me unless she gives up OM. She knows this, she is a MC! She just doesn't want to do it.

The plate spinning analogy is right on.

My W started her EA a year and a half ago, she dropped the bomb on me a little over a year ago, we've been separated for ten months, and her EA became a PA about nine months ago. She has travelled to see OM three times, although the last time was very weird, she texted and called me and the kids all the time, emotional and crying. When she got back, she started saying the things I listed above. I didn't bite too much though, and I started pushing for legal separation. That pulled her back toward me even more as she faced the reality of losing me for good. Unfortunately I got suckered in, and let her get the upper hand again.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/11/09 10:09 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Hi Puppy-

Quote:

This is a classic chicken-and-the-egg about infidelity, Future. It's basically "I can't give up OM because I don't have feelings for you, my husband", and the reason she can't get those feelings back with you, her husband, is because she hasn't given up OM! Any good MC worth their salt will try to get a wayward spouse to end all contact with OM/OW, as the thing to do FOR THEMSELVES, while they try to decide about their marriage. Because so long as their brain is chemically affected by their contacts with the OM/OW, they cannot possibly make good, dispassionate decisions for themselves.


That exact thing has occurred to me as well. However, she's been telling me her feelings for me are mostly gone for a several years now, long before her A started with OM.


Did she ever express those grave concerns to you at the time? Or did this little gem only come out recently, after she started her affair?

Puppy
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/11/09 10:11 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


My W started her EA a year and a half ago, she dropped the bomb on me a little over a year ago, we've been separated for ten months, and her EA became a PA about nine months ago. She has travelled to see OM three times . . .


And each time, she returned to your marital home, and to her marriage, with no real consequences from the sexcapade?
confused
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/11/09 10:29 PM
The way I typed that made it unclear. I meant she had been telling me for years that her feelings for me were not what they should be. We had been in MC for many years. We wrestled endlessly with why she felt this way. She always just blamed me and my behavior, but now that I've been detached for a while, and now that I've learned so much, I can see that's BS. Nothing I did in our M warranted her attitude toward me.

I was finally vindicated when recently during one of our talks, she told me that it wasn't because of me. She has been working on her own issues, and she said abuse in her childhood made her unable to trust me, and caused her to see me as abusive, when I really wasn't. This led to her emotional withdrawal.

The book "Love Without Hurt" has really helped me understand how our R was broken. I told her about it and she immediately offered to read it.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/11/09 10:32 PM
Quote:

And each time, she returned to your marital home, and to her marriage, with no real consequences from the sexcapade?


No, we were separated by then. She tried to plan her first trip to see OM while we were still living together, before I even knew about the A. She lied and said the trip was for her dissertation research. A few days later I found out about her A, and I said if she went on the trip she wasn't welcome back in our home. She backed down and cancelled her trip. She then moved out, and soon after travelled to see OM, consumating the A.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/11/09 10:37 PM
OK, good.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/11/09 11:03 PM
Yeah, I guess it was good, but it was a small victory. I needed to be much stronger at the beginning of all this. I believe if I had been strong enough, I could have prevented the whole thing. If I had access to your advice, and had been strong enough to truly implement it (hard boundaries, cut off financial support, cut off emotional support), I think my W might have come crying back to me out of sheer terror of being alone.

I have to admit though, I'm not 100% sure that would have been a good thing. This crisis has caused us both to deal with serious issues. We seemed to be incapable of dealing with them within the confines of our M. Whether we can put our M back together is yet to be seen.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/12/09 02:08 AM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


I have to admit though, I'm not 100% sure that would have been a good thing. This crisis has caused us both to deal with serious issues.


That is sometimes the case, yes.

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/12/09 05:11 AM
That's why I'd really like to give it another try with my W. Our M was so broken, and we both were such a mess. This separation has been a revelation in many ways. I see her now in a way I never have. We were so stuck in our R. Our whole life became defined by resentment, and we were both too blind to see it, at least not until we were apart for long enough. Even her A, I hate it, but if I'm honest, I have to admit that if it wasn't for her A, we probably would have kept stumbling through our M, and even if we tried to separate, our co-dependence would have pulled us back before any real progress was made. The A served as a barrier that finally kept us apart long enough to get unknotted from each other and deal with the reasons why we were such a mess.

I hate the idea of moving forward in my life without knowing if my W and I could have a great R now. I'm an engineer by trade, so I tend to want to fix things, but sometimes I think I should just hand all this over to God and let him work it out.
Posted By: Gardener Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/12/09 05:21 AM
future,
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I'm an engineer by trade, so I tend to want to fix things, but sometimes I think I should just hand all this over to God and let him work it out.
I can appreciate that, but as I told Serenity13 last night, you can't always do only that. I sometimes picture God saying," I gave you intelligence, perspective, widom, decisiveness, free will, etc. So whatca alwys waiting for me for?" wink
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/12/09 05:52 AM
I'm trying to do my part, but I'm exhausted by it all right now.
Posted By: Gardener Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/12/09 05:59 AM
future,
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I'm trying to do my part, but I'm exhausted by it all right now.
I'm sure you are. And after 11 months of total physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, and psychological exhaustion, I do know the value of sometimes Letting Go and Letting God.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/12/09 02:07 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
That's why I'd really like to give it another try with my W. Our M was so broken, and we both were such a mess. This separation has been a revelation in many ways. I see her now in a way I never have. We were so stuck in our R. Our whole life became defined by resentment, and we were both too blind to see it, at least not until we were apart for long enough. Even her A, I hate it, but if I'm honest, I have to admit that if it wasn't for her A, we probably would have kept stumbling through our M, and even if we tried to separate, our co-dependence would have pulled us back before any real progress was made. The A served as a barrier that finally kept us apart long enough to get unknotted from each other and deal with the reasons why we were such a mess.

I hate the idea of moving forward in my life without knowing if my W and I could have a great R now. I'm an engineer by trade, so I tend to want to fix things, but sometimes I think I should just hand all this over to God and let him work it out.


Take a look at the above. I understand that those are the things that YOU want. But you have to come to grips with the fact that they are not what your WIFE wants, at least right now.

And you can't control that.

And yeah, absolutely, you need to turn this over to God. "Commit your works to the Lord, and your thoughts will be established." You'll then have the hard work to do, based on the "established thoughts," but the OUTCOME -- the TOTALITY OF THE SITUATION -- that is what you have to give over to God.

Give God the outcome, the entirety of the sitch, and ask for WISDOM, DISCERNMENT and CLARITY, as well as the courage to do with it what needs to be done. As He does, then the hard work is yours to do, as noted above, but you can still lean on Him for help every day.

I know I did.

Puppy
Posted By: antlers Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/15/09 07:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails


And yeah, absolutely, you need to turn this over to God. "Commit your works to the Lord, and your thoughts will be established." You'll then have the hard work to do, based on the "established thoughts," but the OUTCOME -- the TOTALITY OF THE SITUATION -- that is what you have to give over to God.

Give God the outcome, the entirety of the sitch, and ask for WISDOM, DISCERNMENT and CLARITY, as well as the courage to do with it what needs to be done. As He does, then the hard work is yours to do, as noted above, but you can still lean on Him for help every day.



Thanks...from a lot of us here.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/17/09 10:15 PM
So... I'm still waiting for my W to respond to my declaration that I won't live in an open M. From the context in which I stated it, I think she realizes if she chooses to cling to OM, then our M is over, I'm moving on, and our R will be degraded to minimal business interactions regarding the kids.

I'm not sure what to make of the fact that she's stalling so much. I hate that I'm the one requesting a R talk. That is a big no no for me, and I've never done it before, but when I made my declaration, I told her I was at a fork in the road, and she said she just needs a little more time. That was about a month ago. Her stalling was speaking loud enough, so I starting being quite distant, which she noticed. Before I left for my marathon I called her and asked her how she was doing. She said "not great", and said she was trying to respect my distancing myself from her, but then she curiously said "don't worry, the kids will be okay", like I wasn't really asking about her, but rather just wanted to know if she was capable of taking care of the kids while I was gone. I told her we needed to talk when I got back, she tentatively said okay.

I got back from the marathon Sunday night and she was very friendly, wanting me to tell her all about it (it was brutal, but I managed to finish and get my medal!). She didn't offer up any time to talk, so the next morning I called her and again said we need to talk. She said she needs a few more days. More stalling, but I've been at this a year, what's a few more days, so I said okay. I can't make her talk to me. I just don't understand what she's waiting for. With the holidays coming up, I know she's hating the idea of spending them apart and splitting time with the kids, and that's what's at stake here, not just this year, but every year from now on!

It's gotten to the point that I think Vegas should start giving odds on whether or not she'll give up OM! LOL!
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 07:23 AM
Perhaps, it's time to put the LRT into effect. I feel she is cake eating, and it won't change until you make it change. I get the impression she doesn't think you will carry through and step it up to the next level --- wherever that is.

Wishing you well.
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 07:38 AM
Hi Future, Sorry your still in limbo.

I hate this I still need a few more days junk! What do you think about you just stop asking, and stop all contact with her. She knows what you want, Im sure.

Congratulations on your marathon!
Posted By: Deep Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 10:21 AM
Umm so to clarify, it looks like you set the boundary, she asked for a timeout so you won't enforce those boundaries, and you're wringing your hands over a month later agonizing over what the next step could be?

You really don't know "what she is waiting for"?

She's having a field day at the bakery, that's what. She's not waiting for anything.

With respect, I don't think you're putting this into God's hands, you're playing right into hers. Stand your ground.

Make it clear you won't be disrespected. Not any more than you have already been.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 01:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Deep
Umm so to clarify, it looks like you set the boundary, she asked for a timeout so you won't enforce those boundaries, and you're wringing your hands over a month later agonizing over what the next step could be?

You really don't know "what she is waiting for"?

She's having a field day at the bakery, that's what. She's not waiting for anything.

With respect, I don't think you're putting this into God's hands, you're playing right into hers. Stand your ground.

Make it clear you won't be disrespected. Not any more than you have already been.


I agree.

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 04:57 PM
Thanks everyone.

I agree too. She is reacting to my increased boundaries with avoidance.

Quote:

You really don't know "what she is waiting for"?

She's having a field day at the bakery, that's what. She's not waiting for anything.


I know I must be detached quite a bit, because that actually made me laugh.

My problem is I hate talking about this stuff over the phone or e-mail. I want a face to face talk, and she's avoiding me. The only time I see her is during child transitions, which is no time to discuss such things. I'm considering writing an e-mail. Here's what I have so far:


W-

No need to get together to talk. Your silence speaks lound enough. Your behavior over the past year has been unbelievably disrespectful to me, our marriage, and our kids, and now you making me wait while you "decide" what to do is the final straw. What is a few days possibly going to change? I made myself clear. I will not live in an open marriage, so if you choose to continue your behavior our marriage is over.

I'll make it easy on you. You don't need to decide. I've decided I'm done and I'm moving on. I want to finalize our legal separation as soon as possible. I'll scrape up the money to pay for my half. If you claim you can't afford your half of the cost, I'll cover yours too, and reduce your monthly support by $100 until it's paid off. Although I haven't made any definite plan, I may file for divorce in order to get this done as soon as possible. I want to be totally free to pursue a new life, and being married to you for another year is a sacrifice I'm not sure I want to make. When someone asks what my situation is, I want to be able to honestly say "I'm divorced". My experience so far has been that people are respectful of the fact that my marriage not yet over, especially given my three young kids, and they don't want to intrude on that, nor risk their own feelings until the situation is resolved. Obviously there are some people in the world who have no problem getting involved with a married person still living with their spouse and three little kids, but I wouldn't be interested in anyone like that.

Our relationship from this point forward will consist of a civil business arrangement to manage the raising of the kids. This is not what I ever wanted, and my heart is very heavy thinking about what their life will be from now on, but I won't tolerate your disrespect any longer. At least during the time the kids are with me, I'll be able to honestly demonstrate what is and isn't acceptable behavior from someone in their life.

H


Comments?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 05:05 PM
Quote:

Congratulations on your marathon!


Thanks bluerain! The flu took its toll on my training, so I didn't do as well as I hoped, but I'm proud of the accomplishment. Miles 17-22 were absolutely brutal. As I crossed the finish line, my only thought was "I'm NEVER doing this again!", but I'm already starting to think about how I could improve my time. I must be a sucker for punishment. Just look at what I tolerate from my W!
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 06:07 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
So... I'm still waiting for my W to respond to my declaration that I won't live in an open M. From the context in which I stated it, I think she realizes if she chooses to cling to OM, then our M is over, I'm moving on, and our R will be degraded to minimal business interactions regarding the kids.


times up. in all honestly how much longer can you wait? in basketball you get 24 seconds to take a shot; in football 40 seconds to make a play; your wife gets what? over a year to make up her mind? YOUR future will always be unknown unless you take control over YOUR present. It is your decisiveness, your strength and your self-respect that not only controls the outcome of your relationship but also for your future as a whole. There are penalties for delay of game in real life also.

do you think your relationship currently is anything other than minimal business interactions regarding the kids, some pleasantrys, and pressure and badgering attempts at relationship talks by you? can you understand why your wife cannot recommit to your marriage? why would she want to walk back into a situation that is this constant need to discuss whats wrong? (You try so hard not to have relationship talks. You hate being the one who brings up relationship talks. what relationship?) Its been bad for years. its old. its no fun.

Maybe I am off my rocker, but isnt the reason for sharing time, energy, and emotions with someone to have fun, to enjoy yourself, to grow mentally and physically through interactions with them?

out of curosity, in the past year since your wife has moved out how many days have you gone not thinking about her or about your relationship with her? 3 months, 2 months, 1 month, a couple weeks in a row perchance? There is a reason people yell detach detach detach on this site it is so you can live without the constant reminder of what is no longer what you taught it was or want it to be, to go out and have fun, to enjoy yourself, to grow both mentally and physically through your own spirituality or interactions with other others. if by doing so you reattract your spouse, good for you, you counter-intuitively saved your marriage. if not, well, hopefully you come to realize that there is nothing wrong with yourself to make you good enough for yourself.

Both you and your wife need a wake up call. your wife needs a reality slap in the face to realize that pussy footing around with other peoples emotions is bullcrap. and you need to wake up and realize there are more successful ways to save your marriage than waiting around for her to make decisions regarding your life and determining how successful your attempts at detaching are by how well she draws you back in.

If you desperately want to save your marriage, I would let it go, move on, upward and onward. treat it with the attitude, 'it was fun but it has got to end.' Then pursue a life that is fun, exhilarating, inspiring, and fulfills your need to be with someone through 'social interactions.' Your ex-wife can be your babysitter while you GROW physically and mentally apart from her.

You will thank yourself for a new outlook on your future and will probably find your wife back pedaling and pursuing you and approaching you with relationship talks when she realizes how confident, self-respecting and great you have become (esp. when she realizes some other gal snatches you up rather quickly). Your wife cannot commit to you or her fantasy. So commit to yourself.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 06:15 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Comments?


a walk away spouse never communicates their feelings in such a manner. their silence and attitude convey more than words could ever explain. you have said enough already over the past year. its time to leave her distraught and confused while you smile and become futureabound.
Posted By: Gardener Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 06:26 PM
SM,
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Comments?


a walk away spouse never communicates their feelings in such a manner. their silence and attitude convey more than words could ever explain. you have said enough already over the past year. its time to leave her distraught and confused while you smile and become futureabound.

Thanks for this. Hit home.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 06:36 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


Comments?


Yeah. It's about damned time.

I wouldn't change a single word.

Puppy
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 06:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Comments?


a walk away spouse never communicates their feelings in such a manner. their silence and attitude convey more than words could ever explain. you have said enough already over the past year. its time to leave her distraught and confused while you smile and become futureabound.


I respectfully disagree, McQueen. I think in Future's case, considering his past dysfunction in his marriage and his avoidance of conflict, there may be all SORTS of wrong things that his wayward wife could read into his silence.

I doubt "strength" would be very high on her list, if it appeared at all.

I think there's a time for CLEARLY communicating one's intentions. Since he has included Gucci's magic prefix ("I have decided that"), and not just put some "drama" tome out there to her, I think his note is spot-on -- and long overdue.

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 06:47 PM
Hi Steve McQueen-

Thanks for taking time to comment.

Quote:

do you think your relationship currently is anything other than minimal business interactions regarding the kids, some pleasantrys, and pressure and badgering attempts at relationship talks by you? can you understand why your wife cannot recommit to your marriage? why would she want to walk back into a situation that is this constant need to discuss whats wrong? (You try so hard not to have relationship talks. You hate being the one who brings up relationship talks. what relationship?)


Maybe not much more, but we're still very connected by our kids, and we still talk about our lives and go out and have fun sometimes. Pressure and badgering isn't exactly how I'd describe my behavior this year. I have asked her out a couple times, and we went out and had fun without any R talk at all. This is the first time I have ever asked for a relationship talk with her, and it's only because we left a huge unresolved topic hanging. She has pursued me for talks several times over the past few months. The fact that I gave them to her is my mistake.

Quote:

out of curosity, in the past year since your wife has moved out how many days have you gone not thinking about her or about your relationship with her? 3 months, 2 months, 1 month, a couple weeks in a row perchance? There is a reason people yell detach detach detach on this site it is so you can live without the constant reminder of what is no longer what you taught it was or want it to be, to go out and have fun, to enjoy yourself, to grow both mentally and physically through your own spirituality or interactions with other others.


I haven't detached enough. I know. I haven't gone a day. Our kids keep us so close, I have found it very hard. When our 6 year old daughter takes each of our hands, pulls them together, squeezes them between hers, and looks up at us with a sad longing expression, detaching is pretty dam* tough. During most of our transitions one or more of the kids cry and ask "Why can't we all live together?" I won't bring another woman into the kids lives for a long time, so that means I'm on my own with them half the time for the next couple years, and that's a lonely thought. During my single time, I have been about as active as I can be. I've met new friends, I've gone on lots of dates, I've embraced old interests, I trained for and ran a marathon, I rarely call my W, when she calls I blow her off most of the time. What else can I do? It doesn't mean I don't still love my W and long for my kids to have their parents together again.

Quote:

You will thank yourself for a new outlook on your future and will probably find your wife back pedaling and pursuing you and approaching you with relationship talks when she realizes how confident, self-respecting and great you have become (esp. when she realizes some other gal snatches you up rather quickly). Your wife cannot commit to you or her fantasy. So commit to yourself.


That is exactly what had her backpedaling and pursuing me. I allow myself to be pulled back in too easily though. I'm learning. Slower than I'd like, but I'm learning.
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 06:50 PM
I used to write letters to my H too --- logical ones, last resort ones. He ignored them all, unless I brought them up. We are still together, but nothing has truly been resolved, except that he's sorry for the hurt caused, but it doesn't tell me why, or how I can trust him again. He won't discuss it.

Your next communication should be from your divorce attorney. If that doesn't get her attention, then it's time to follow through with the D. Life is too short to wait on someone who should've sorted out her issues within the M, and not turn to someone else outside it (and then not even regret it). A letter tells her that she can still string you along. It's a repeat of what you have already told her. If she truly feared losing you, then she would be the one coming to you to talk. When we allow our spouses to do this to us, we are living a lie, and our kids can feel it. Life is too short (believe me, I have a brain tumour, and although I am glad to have my H's support, it has come at a very high price and even now, with all that has happened, he will not discuss his issues).

My humble opinion, but it comes from painful experience. Go find a new life, free of all this stuff.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 06:52 PM
Quote:

I respectfully disagree, McQueen. I think in Future's case, considering his past dysfunction in his marriage and his avoidance of conflict, there may be all SORTS of wrong things that his wayward wife could read into his silence.


Exactly. Thanks Puppy. If I start being distant she'll just think I'm being moody again, and I'll be back when she bats her eyes at me.

Quote:

I doubt "strength" would be very high on her list, if it appeared at all.


I am embarassed to admit this is true.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 06:54 PM
no disagreement pdt. i see where you are coming from. but thats a hard letter to back down from even if they coming crying back after they read it begging for forgiveness. i'd definitely follow it up with divorce papers and a for sale sign on the front lawn if i was to send it, personally.

but if future's got the backbone go for it. that woman needs a kick in the pants down the road. imo.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 06:56 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Our kids keep us so close, I have found it very hard. When our 6 year old daughter takes each of our hands, pulls them together, squeezes them between hers, and looks up at us with a sad longing expression, detaching is pretty dam* tough.


cry cry cry

Damn, that broke my heart. frown

All the more reason to stop doing what you've BEEN doing, and try something stronger/more effective, even if it's damned difficult.

Puppy
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 07:32 PM
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Your next communication should be from your divorce attorney. [snip] A letter tells her that she can still string you along.

Amen!

If your state allows this then proceed directly to the big D, do not pass separation, do not waste $200. Demonstrate your decisiveness. Separation is still wishy washy and tells her she can continue to string you along. Actions speak louder than words Future. Her actions speak of someone keeping you in their back pocket as Plan "Z". I.e. Their last resort if plans "A" through "Y" don't pan out. (And yes, in case you were wondering, all puns intended with the A.

As for the letter, print it out and let it accompany the D papers. The only thing I would remove are the following sentences:

Quote:
My experience so far has been that people are respectful of the fact that my marriage not yet over, especially given my three young kids, and they don't want to intrude on that, nor risk their own feelings until the situation is resolved. Obviously there are some people in the world who have no problem getting involved with a married person still living with their spouse and three little kids, but I wouldn't be interested in anyone like that.

She has actively demonstrated that she doesn't give two hoots about you and your "feelings." Those sentences ooze of "Pity me, I can't find anyone until we're done."

Once you've demonstrated your backbone and decisiveness put on your spewproof coat because the shirts going to hit the fan. She'll be screaming blue-murder. Stand firm. You're creating a crisis for her and upsetting the apple-cart on its way to the pie shop. And, if she isn't too enmeshed in her fantasy may just give her the jolt to try R. If that happens, handle with caution.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 07:39 PM
Quote:

If your state allows this then proceed directly to the big D, do not pass separation, do not waste $200. Demonstrate your decisiveness. Separation is still wishy washy and tells her she can continue to string you along. Actions speak louder than words Future.


I hear you, and I certainly have that option in my state, but it may be the case that a D will cost ten times what a separation will cost, especially if she fights me on it. I need to look into it. I agree with you 100% though, I'm worried that separation is still too weak, and she'll just think she has a year to string this whole thing along before she makes a real decision.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 07:48 PM
Quote:

As for the letter, print it out and let it accompany the D papers. The only thing I would remove are the following sentences:


Quote:

My experience so far has been that people are respectful of the fact that my marriage not yet over, especially given my three young kids, and they don't want to intrude on that, nor risk their own feelings until the situation is resolved. Obviously there are some people in the world who have no problem getting involved with a married person still living with their spouse and three little kids, but I wouldn't be interested in anyone like that.


She has actively demonstrated that she doesn't give two hoots about you and your "feelings." Those sentences ooze of "Pity me, I can't find anyone until we're done."


I hadn't looked at it that way, but I see it now. How about:


I don't feel right asking someone new to look past the fact that I'm still married, especially given my three little kids. Obviously there are some people in the world who have no problem getting involved with a married person still living with their spouse and three little kids, but I wouldn't be interested in anyone like that.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 07:55 PM
What's that one paragraph even supposed to be accomplishing?

I'd just leave it out.

Puppy
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 08:06 PM
Future, I know you're trying to "guilt" her with that paragraph -- even with the modification. "Guilting" her is a form of pursuit.. and ahem... nullifies the "theme" of the rest of the letter. i.e. "I am done."
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 08:07 PM
Yep.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 09:27 PM
Yup, that's what it is, and yup, it's coming out.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 09:52 PM
In response to Steve McQueen's concern that it might not leave any wiggle room once sent, I've softened it ever so slightly:


W-

No need to get together to talk. Your silence speaks loud enough. Your behavior over the past year has been unbelievably disrespectful to me, our marriage, and our kids, and now you making me wait while you "decide" what to do is the final straw. What is a few days possibly going to change? I made myself clear. I will not live in an open marriage, so if you choose to continue your behavior our marriage is over.

I'll make it easy on you. You don't need to decide. I've decided I'm done and I'm moving on. I want to finalize our legal separation as soon as possible. I'll scrape up the money to pay for my half. If you claim you can't afford your half of the cost, I'll cover yours too, and reduce your monthly support by $100 until it's paid off. Although I haven't made any definite plan, I might file for divorce in order to get this done sooner. I want to be totally free to pursue a new life, and being married to you for another year under these conditions is a sacrifice I'm not sure I want to make. When someone asks what my situation is, I want to be able to honestly say "I'm divorced".

This is not what I ever wanted, and my heart is very heavy thinking about what the kids' lives will be from now on, but I won't tolerate your disrespect any longer. At least during the time the kids are with me, I'll be able to honestly demonstrate what is and isn't acceptable behavior from someone in their life.

H


That phrase is made bold here for clarity, it won't be bold in the actual message. Just matter of fact.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 10:25 PM
I don't know what state you are in and you don't have to say if you don't want but if by chance you are in NY then I have to say, from a legal standpoint and the AWFUL divorce laws here, go for the separation.

My H and I have spent nearly 11K in attnys fees (well, he has, lol, I wont be paying a thing) and the court system here for a divorce, especially a contested one (which will happen if either attny files a RJI if an agreement isn't meant by the two parties within 20 days of the initial filing) is nothing short of your worst nightmare. I know because I have been wrapped up in this joke of a court system for 21 months. The BS - the continuances, the adjournments, the pre trial hearings... it is terrible and stressful and we don't have children.

In NY 90% of all divorces are initiated by a separation agreement as the grounds for divorce here are so nutty and hard to prove - the separation agreement lays the framework (assets and such) for the divorce and the Agreement serves as the grounds after one year. All Agreements state the couple is to maintain separate lives and can conduct themselves as not married (the legal language is fancier than that of course).

If you are in NY, for a purely legal standpoint, don't rule out separation. I wanted a legal separation and my H refused for almost 2 years and when the D proceedings really heated up and he saw I wasn't going to back down, well separated we are as of y'day and this started in March of 2008!. Our Agreement will last for 3 years which is what the D would have been anyhow as far as support and such.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/18/09 10:58 PM
Your amendment is fine. I'd suggest another amendment of that sentence to this:
Quote:
for another year under these conditions is a sacrifice I'm not sure I want I'm not prepared to make.

Remember you have decided. You cannot demonstrate uncertainty. Be firm. The tone of your letter needs to be strong and clearly communicate your intention.

Only this will make her re-think. Also, I'd like to ask you this: Are you truly prepared to follow through with this?

The reason I ask is because if you budge a micrometer from that letter your credibility will be shot and you're screwed.

This is a last resort strategy. i.e. You becoming the WAH and she the LBS. This can go either way depending on how she feels.

Standard anger and puke: "You know I was going to give "us" another shot. I was almost there, and now you pull THIS on me!! See? I knew it! I knew I was right. You can't change!"

OR (don't get your hopes up)

"I've think we should give it another shot and take it slow." -- IF this happens be on guard. Be suspicious. Go ahead and LAY your boundaries on thick (e.g. transparency). DO NOT withdraw the legal action. Leave it in play. If she breaks your boundaries then its full steam ahead. This is her chance to regain your trust and prove to you she is worth of being called your W. Be patient and watchful.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 12:58 AM
Quote:

I don't know what state you are in and you don't have to say if you don't want but if by chance you are in NY then I have to say, from a legal standpoint and the AWFUL divorce laws here, go for the separation.

My H and I have spent nearly 11K in attnys fees (well, he has, lol, I wont be paying a thing) and the court system here for a divorce, especially a contested one (which will happen if either attny files a RJI if an agreement isn't meant by the two parties within 20 days of the initial filing) is nothing short of your worst nightmare. I know because I have been wrapped up in this joke of a court system for 21 months. The BS - the continuances, the adjournments, the pre trial hearings... it is terrible and stressful and we don't have children.


Well, I have her own admissions of her infidelity, but I don't think I'd need it. She wouldn't contest the grounds. She knows I have everything on her, and she wouldn't want such ugliness coming out in open court.

What you describe about D in NY is exactly what I've heard, so I don't think I can go the route of filing for divorce, as much as I might want to. We've almost got our separation agreement finished up. At our last meeting, when the mediator stepped out of the room she looked at me and asked if I wanted to tell the mediator to hold off on the final paperwork. I asked if she wanted to and she said yes, so I said yes too. My hope was stirred up.

A couple days later was when I told her that I only agreed to that assuming we were still vested in our marriage. She nodded and that's when I said I wouldn't live in some crazy open marriage. She said she knows, and that she hates where she is, but she "just needs a little time". The next day I went out of town for a week, and when I came back everyone was sick, and by the time everyone was better I had to go to my marathon, etc, etc. She's used all that to stall. So here I am.

I probably should just stick with the separation. She seems to consider it a very serious step in the ending of our marriage, so maybe it has enough teeth to work.

Back last winter she was full of brass confidence, not caring if I divorced her or separated or whatever. Whenever she would start to waver, she'd talk to OM and he'd get her all riled up again. Now it doesn't seem to be working. Seems like she's on her own now, at least as far as deciding what she wants to do. I don't know what is going on between her and OM any more, but I know it's something, or she wouldn't be hedging like this.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 01:16 AM
Quote:

Remember you have decided. You cannot demonstrate uncertainty. Be firm. The tone of your letter needs to be strong and clearly communicate your intention.

Only this will make her re-think. Also, I'd like to ask you this: Are you truly prepared to follow through with this?

The reason I ask is because if you budge a micrometer from that letter your credibility will be shot and you're screwed.


I like feeling more empowered, but I hear you. I have to be sure of this. Part of me is thinking this is a bit of a betrayal since we were talking open and honestly about what was going on, and she said she needs a few more days, and although she could tell I didn't like it, I agreed. For me to do this would go back on what I said, and make it seem like I've been plotting behind her back.

Before I do anything, I'm pondering a softer tactic. Something like:


W-

No need for us to talk. I've decided I'm not interested in pursuing us, at least not right now. I don't know what the future will bring, but know I need time to seriously think about what I want moving forward, so I've decided to go away for a while.

The disrespect you've shown me over the last year has become lodged in my head and heart, and it has changed how I feel about you. Your latest move, making me wait while you "decide" is the last bit of disrespect I will tolerate.

I want to get our legal separation done as soon as possible. I'll scrape up the money to pay for my half. If you claim you can't afford your half of the cost, I'll cover yours too, and reduce your monthly support by $100 until it's paid off. I want to be totally free to pursue a new life to see what's out there for me.

This is not what I ever wanted, and my heart is very heavy thinking about what the kids' lives will be from now on, but I won't tolerate your disrespect any longer. At least during the time the kids are with me, I'll be able to honestly demonstrate what is and isn't acceptable behavior from someone in their life.

H


Comments?

By the way, I want to thank every one of you for your interest in my life and my situation.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 02:43 AM
The first one's MUCH better.

send it.

It WILL get a strong reaction. Be prepared for it.

Puppy
Posted By: Gardener Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 02:48 AM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
The first one's MUCH better.Send it.
Puppy
I agree. First one is strong, decisive.
Second one sounds a bit "victimy"
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 02:49 AM
Future you're wavering here. You're letting doubt flood in. I'd stick the previous letter without that guilt inducing paragraph. You have to show strength and conviction. Think of this as a high stakes poker game and its time for you to bluff.

You've been playing the game badly because she's seen you fold time and time again in the past. Every time you put up a boundary she crosses it to test your resolve.

Some things I'd like to point out to you:

Quote:
Part of me is thinking this is a bit of a betrayal since we were talking open and honestly about what was going on, and she said she needs a few more days, and although she could tell I didn't like it, I agreed. For me to do this would go back on what I said, and make it seem like I've been plotting behind her back.


1. How can this be a betrayal? She asked for a few days and you gave her weeks. Boundary crossed. Result = No consequences.

2. You pursue to talk. She makes excuses and evades, hiding behind texts and emails, knowing you won't do a thing.

Quote:
For me to do this would go back on what I said, and make it seem like I've been plotting behind her back.


I disagree. Yes, she may think that, but your letter explains why. Her silence and avoidance has given you the answer. i.e. She still wants her fingers in both pies. Oh, and expect that spew (read my previous post)

I won't go through your entire thread. You know you're own history better than us. Look through your actions every time she's crossed a boundary. You failed.

As an example, think of when raising your kids and they push your boundaries, like when you tell them to go to bed. They disobey and disobey until you lose your temper. When you lose your temper they know that if you have to tell them once more, they will get punished.

You have let this woman get away with murder. Murder you ask? Yes, I say. Murder of your self-esteem and self-worth. You tolerate this because you love her and want her back. We can understand this.

However, every time you let her cross the line she loses respect for you. She knows what she can get away with and she knows that as long as you harbor feelings for her she can continue along her merry philanderous ways.

Look at other people's threads. Only when the LBS is at their wits end and throw in the towel is when the WAS sometimes wakes up and wants to pursue a reconciliation. Then LBS welcomes WAS back with open arms, unconditionally and without boundaries due to fear of loss. What happens then? Some time later WAS walks again. I'd hate to see this happen to you.

Be firm. Be strong. No woman EVER stays with a man she cannot respect. Respect is an attractive quality a woman looks for in a man.

Some good signs that this may work:
1. You said last fall she was full of brass and now she's not.
2. She was having second thoughts of going through with the S.

Quote:
I probably should just stick with the separation. She seems to consider it a very serious step in the ending of our marriage, so maybe it has enough teeth to work.


I agree this seems to be the best path to follow. Perhaps add this little piece into the mix:

W, I'd like to make myself very clear one point in this process. In my eyes separation is the equivalent of divorce. For me there is no difference. The minute these papers are signed we are DONE... FOR GOOD. I do not consider you a friend. There will be no friendship. You are the remnants of a distasteful business transaction to me. I will not be there for you and do not want to know you. For the kids sake and with their best interests in mind I will treat you with the same politeness and courtesy I reserve for a stranger. Good luck to you.

I'm not my most eloquent tonight so take the above and rework it.
Posted By: Gardener Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 02:53 AM
Originally Posted By: Gnosis

W, I'd like to make myself very clear one point in this process. In my eyes separation is the equivalent of divorce. For me there is no difference. The minute these papers are signed we are DONE... FOR GOOD. I do not consider you a friend. There will be no friendship. You are the remnants of a distasteful business transaction to me. I will not be there for you and do not want to know you. For the kids sake and with their best interests in mind I will treat you with the same politeness and courtesy I reserve for a stranger. Good luck to you.

I'm not my most eloquent tonight so take the above and rework it.
Pretty damn eloquent to me. Good job.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 03:01 AM
Thanks Gardener, I'm adding it into my personal arsenal in preparation for my own sitch.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 03:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Gnosis


Look at other people's threads. Only when the LBS is at their wits end and throw in the towel is when the WAS sometimes wakes up and wants to pursue a reconciliation. Then LBS welcomes WAS back with open arms, unconditionally and without boundaries due to fear of loss. What happens then? Some time later WAS walks again. I'd hate to see this happen to you.


Ditto, amen, and hallelujah.

Truer words have never been spoken.
.
Puppy
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 04:36 AM
I seriously don't think you should send a letter, Future. The mere fact that you are willing to put words to paper, gives the impression of pursuit. If anything:

W, I have asked you several times to talk about our situation. You have ignored my request, so the next communication we will have (besides the children) will be my attorney who will start the process of finalizing our separation.

This is not what I wanted, but you have left me with no choice.


If your W cares about you at all, and has left OM, then she will be quick to answer this letter with shock. If she is only giving you the time of day because of the kids, and she's keeping you hanging for old times sake, she will hope you won't carry through and keep shaking you off. Don't ask her for time to talk again.

As a woman, the fact that 'feelings' are not mentioned would devastate me. Perhaps, she is the same? We women pick up on that very quickly.

Good luck.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 01:56 PM
Quote:
As a woman, the fact that 'feelings' are not mentioned would devastate me. Perhaps, she is the same? We women pick up on that very quickly.

Exactly!

BM the purpose of this letter is to create CRISIS. To clearly communicate the Future "is done" and accelerate fear of loss.

The "devastation" will force her hand to "sh!t or get off the pot". She's been having fun and emasculating Future for about a year with her indecisiveness.

How much more should he take before she sends him to the funny farm?
How much longer must the man sit back and "enjoy" the devastation she has wreaked on his family?

Future is in a good position now. Why? The cracks are starting to show in the affair. Her OM is not being as supportive as he was before. Why? Who knows. One can only ass-u-me. My assumption is that now that the separation is coming the OM has to face the reality of having to live with and support a cheating woman. A woman who has made her husband's life hell. Yes, men can be stupid, but not THAT stupid. Now that the fun is over OM is also getting a peek into reality. I'm pretty should he's asking himself if he could ever trust a woman like her.

Future has made his changes. She has noticed. She is backing off slightly. She is having some second thoughts. That letter, accompanied by legal ACTION will add to her crisis and encourage her to face reality. The iron is hot. Her resolve has weakened.

Should he wait until she recovers her resolve and her barriers come slamming back up?
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 02:15 PM
Future, just to clarify, the letter and pushing for S is a last resort -- the purpose is to get her to wake up and start pursuing you.

The reason is that if it doesn't work and she pushes forward, you back way off. You have your answer and are out of limbo. You will have a final answer.

On the other hand, and this is the case we all want, if she wakes up and wants back in, you're going to have to make her work for it. You have to switch roles and become the WAS and she the LBS. If you're worth it she'll work for it. If she doesn't then you will reach some clarity that this is not the kind of woman you want in your life.

I hope this explanation provides you with some clarity.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 02:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Gnosis
Future, just to clarify, the letter and pushing for S is a last resort -- the purpose is to get her to wake up and start pursuing you.

The reason is that if it doesn't work and she pushes forward, you back way off. You have your answer and are out of limbo. You will have a final answer.

On the other hand, and this is the case we all want, if she wakes up and wants back in, you're going to have to make her work for it. You have to switch roles and become the WAS and she the LBS. If you're worth it she'll work for it. If she doesn't then you will reach some clarity that this is not the kind of woman you want in your life.

I hope this explanation provides you with some clarity.


Perfectly stated, Gnosis.

Puppy
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 03:08 PM
Wait, Future, is the purpose of this letter to create a crisis (wake up call) for your wife or to put into writing that you are going to pay for her divorce and reduce her support payment in lieu?

"In response to Steve McQueen's concern that it might not leave any wiggle room once sent, I've softened it ever so slightly:"

Steve's wife is living with her sister. Steve aint soft. gotta funny but saddly true story, in the midst of the craziness and during a long period of SSM, i told my sweet dear wife this is ridiculous i love you but my needs arent being met here. her response was, i dont understand through the course of all my lifetimes this is just miniscule amount of time. you can survive. wth. the only thing i could say is for those of us who only go round once this is bullcrap.

but anyhow, i quess my question is is this your LRT or your final statement?
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 03:13 PM
SMQ, the way I read Future's actions this will be LRT. Is that correct Future?

And Steve... when are you going to update your own thread? I remember you went of the deep end for a while, but since you've come back... not much news... what gives?
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 03:25 PM
I am sorry to keep bringing up the legal side of things as I know you are wanting feedback on the letter. I am still unclear if you are in NY or not but if I may just offer you what I know based on my experience.

If your W cant pay for her portion of the legal fees it is very possible her attny will file an immediate motion with the courts for immediate reimbursement/payment of her legal fees by YOU. All she has to do is say she cant afford the fees to her attny. And since YOU filed there is a good chance this motion will be granted, especially if she makes less money than you do. Now, if you have an Agreement in place BEFORE any actual legalities/filings begin you can put whatever you want in the Agreement pending they don't bypass the boundaries of the scope of the law.

As far as her NOT contesting it, don't be so sure. If by chance she tells her attny that she is not pleased with the agreement reached via the mediator or feels like the process is taking too long her attny *can* file what is called a RJI (Request for Judicial Intervention) which will give you a court date for a pre-trial hearing. In the eyes of the Family Court circuit in NY this *is* contesting the divorce simply due to the RJI motion.

If you want right for the divorce and filed under the grounds of Adultery AND your W's attny files the RJI (making it contested based on the request of judicial intervention) it is a very hard ground to prove once contested. In order to prove Adultery in NY one must have a third party witness willing to state they saw your W and OM having sexual relations.

Plus, when you file for the divorce you are required to complete an affidavit giving details of the grounds you are filing under. Now, if no RJI is filed and your W just agrees to the Adultery ground then things will be fine. But most attnys know in NY that is unlikely due to HOW Adultery has to be proved.

If you are going to file for divorce Cruel and Inhumane Treatment would be the most likely grounds as having a sexual R outside the bounds of marriage *is* considered cruel and inhumane and does not require the same level of proof Adultery does.

I told you this state makes no sense.

As you might now, Irreconcilable Differences is NOT a ground for divorce in NY.

That is why 90% of all divorces in NY begin with a Separation Agreement as the Agreement serves as the grounds.

Once *anything* is filed and you don't have something in place in the 20 span and one attny gets trigger happy and files the request for judicial intervention you are "stuck" in the court system and it is *very* hard to get out. Trust me!

NY is the only state in the country that has these heinous and stringent divorce laws. Unless you live in NY I can understand why its easy to say "bypass the separation" but really, it will save you so much money, hassle and stress (especially since you have children).

I am not an attny but having spent 21 months and hundreds of hours with mine I am fairly well versed in how this works.

Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 05:57 PM
Future, with all of our opinions here ... I would take a week to just think about what you really want. Your W obviously doesn't want to talk right now and is avoiding you in order to avert doing so. She has been enjoying the status quo and probably doesn't want to change anything right now. I don't think forcing her to 'listen' via the letter is going to make her come home. You have to be prepared that this is not only the LRT, but probably the end. Are you ready for this?

If not, then wait another couple of weeks. Detach first. Drop that rope of hope. Don't speak to her about anything except the kids. In fact, if you can get a third party (a grandma, or aunt, sister, whoever) to collect them for you, even better. So, that you might stay away from her for those 2 weeks and see how you feel about 'no contact'. If she doesn't come to you, then write the letter (if you feel you must) and start separation process.

I think 'no contact' would speak louder than words about her disrespecting your boundaries. It will also give you time to think without seeing her for a time. (Obviously, no phone contact either.)

Just a thought.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 07:04 PM
Not a bad idea. A week or two isn't going to kill you one way or another.

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 07:16 PM
This is a LRT. If I was truly DONE, there would be no point to send anything. I would just get the legal stuff going, get it over with, and live my life, along the lines of what BeingMe is saying. The letter itself shows that the R is important to me, but it's a declaration that I've finally thrown in the towel.

I am wavering around a bit. I'm grateful to have this venue to safely express it so I can make the right move here. My W has an uncanny knack for portraying herself very kindly so as to disarm me. As I said before, she's a MC, that is a natural skill she uses with her clients all the time.

I have to be honest here. I know I've been too weak during this whole thing. Not that I'm beating myself up, because I've done many things right, and I haven't been excessively weak, just too weak to turn it around. I've had my victories along the way, and I've got my WAW seriously doubting her decisions and her actions. The question is, how do I bring it home? I have much respect for the folks here.

Quote:

She has been enjoying the status quo and probably doesn't want to change anything right now.


Exactly! How is continuing to wait doing anything other than allowing her to keep eating cake? I've waited enough. We left an enormous question hanging, and with the holidays coming up, I need some resolution to that topic. Either she isn't willing to give up OM and our M is over, or she is willing to give up OM, and we'll see. I know she she sees the holidays coming, and she is afraid of the ramifications of the former, and truthfully, so am I. Her mother is asking me if I'm coming over with the kids for Thanksgiving, and I can't give her an answer until this is resolved.

Here's what I have now:


W-

No need to get together to talk. Your silence speaks loud enough. Your behavior over the past year has been unbelievably disrespectful to me, our marriage, and our kids, and now you making me wait while you "decide" what to do is the final straw. What is a few days possibly going to change? I made myself clear. I will not live in an open marriage, so if you choose to continue your behavior our marriage is over.

I'll make it easy on you. You don't need to decide. I've decided I'm done and I'm moving on. I want to finalize our legal separation as soon as possible. I'll scrape up the money to pay for my half. If you can't afford your half of the cost, I'll cover yours too, and reduce your monthly support by $100 until it's paid off. New York makes filing for divorce incredibly difficult and expensive, otherwise I'd forego the one year of separation. We've already been separated for a year, I have no need nor desire for another. I want to be totally free to pursue a new life.

This is not what I ever wanted for us or our kids, and my heart is very heavy thinking about what the kids' lives will be from now on, but I won't tolerate your disrespect any longer. At least during the time the kids are with me, I'll be able to honestly demonstrate what is and isn't acceptable behavior from someone in their life.

H
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 07:24 PM
have you ever sent a letter like this, said anything of the like or have acted as such previously (i.e. in the past year)?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 07:24 PM
Quote:

Not a bad idea. A week or two isn't going to kill you one way or another.


I'm at the point where I want to strike first. I have allowed her disrespect too long, and I almost don't want her to come to me, because she will be in the power position. Monday morning she said she needed a few more days. It's now Thursday afternoon, and all I hear from her is crickets chirping. The longer I wait without acting, what little respect I've got left just drains away.

I'm coming to realize that the only hope for establishing equal respect between us is for me to do this. I need to put her back on her heels, and make her work to get me back, as Gnosis said. If she's not willing to do that, then that tells me everything I need to know.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 07:29 PM
OK; I understand.

Puppy
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 08:15 PM
Quote:
I need to put her back on her heels, and make her work to get me back,

A word of caution: This will only happen if the affair is busted or near bust.

Now onto your letter. Your communication short be short, succinct and to the point. How's this:

W,

Thanks for the extra time to reflect this last year. What was I thinking?!!! Who in their right mind would tolerate this kind of behavior and complete disrespect of family, morals and values from a person that supposedly loves them? Thank God I've had a moment of clarity! I've decided that I've had enough and am moving on. This means I need to finalize the legal separation ASAP.

From what I've heard, divorce is incredibly difficult and expensive in this state. It makes more financial sense to legally separate for a year. I'm busy scraping up the money to pay and get this done. Don't concern yourself if you can't afford your half right now. We need to get this done and I'll be more than happy to reduce your monthly support by $100 until it's paid off. It's a pity I didn't do this last year because I could have been totally free to pursue a new life already.

Even though it's not the outcome I desired, I've come to realize this is healthiest and best for the kids. They need some form of stability. Life's too short and I can't afford to wait around. I'm free to choose what I want and I think that this is the best.


The above display's NO SELF-PITY, decisiveness and clarity of intent. If you're worried about leeway... there is plenty of leeway in it for her to convince you that she is the right choice.

Also, reread the last few days posts. Think on this tonight and tomorrow. Deliver the letter to her on Friday night and give her the weekend to panic and scream for support from the OM. Oh, and make sure you are OUT OF CONTACT until Monday.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 08:30 PM
Quote:

have you ever sent a letter like this, said anything of the like or have acted as such previously (i.e. in the past year)?


This is going to be very embarassing, because it just makes me look like more of a weak fool who can't see the obvious right in front of me.

Yes, I have, and in each case, I got EXACTLY the response I wanted:

Way back in February, when she said she was going to see OM again, I stood up to her and asked her if it was fair for her to be going on another trip when we barely had enough money to get by, she got mad and said she was a grown woman who could do what she wanted, then I said I wanted to step up the legal process and get it done sooner. Later that day she called and very contritely apologized and said "I can't bear the thought of going through this if we're not okay." Wow. Then she came over the next evening to talk finances and she said "I don't want a divorce. I don't want to divorce you. Look how we are together." I said nothing in response because I could tell she wasn't totally meaning what she was saying. I had a plan that evening to meet friends out, and she begged me to let her stay in the house with the kids for the night. I said okay and left. I didn't get back until 3am and she was asleep on the couch. She was gone when I got up, and she went on her trip shortly afterwards. That's one.

Earlier in the summer I was feeling quite detached and strong and was acting very much like I couldn't care less about her. She started reaching out, asking me to do things, asking me if I wanted to come over for breakfast, etc. I went too far and became quite aggressive in mediation, declaring that I wanted nothing to do with her, that I wanted to arrange our custody so that I never saw her, that I was only going to pay support I felt was fair, and if she couldn't support herself on it then I'd take the kids full time, etc. She stormed out of the mediation, and acted all huffy when I saw her, but since I felt bad and I had an extra ticket to a baseball game I was taking the kids to I asked her to come along. We had a great time, and there was definitely newfound respect in the air. Afterwards she texted me and said she had fun, but that it "F*cked with her head." That was the beginning of her moves toward me. That's two.

She had planned to go see OM again in August, and even though we had taken a step toward each other, she went to see him anyway. I got very distant, and when she got back I immediately started the process of getting our legal separation moving toward finalization. I sent her very frank e-mails addressing her as STBXW, asking her to get the rest of the stuff out of the house, telling her we couldn't share custody of the dog any more, etc. She came over to the house to get her stuff and was actually saying LBS stuff, i.e. "you're being awfully practical about this", "do you remember when we christened the house?", etc. She asked if I'd be willing to get together to "talk about us". That's three.

We did get together to talk and the floodgates opened. We started opening up and talking honestly about how we felt about everything. She apologized for a lot of her actions, and owned how she failed me as a W, but she said she couldn't regret her R with OM because it allowed her to find herself again. We talked about some wounds in our R that go all the way back to our first year together. I apologized for how I hurt her. When we agreed to delay our separation and talked about spending time together, that's when I said "I won't live in some crazy open marriage" and she said she needed a little time. Now here I am.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 08:37 PM
So.... moral of the story.... KEEP DOING WHAT WORKS and don't stop doing it until she's back or gone.

From what I can see... she wants a MAN who can play hardball.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 08:47 PM
Quote:

don't stop doing it until she's back or gone


That's where I've failed over and over.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 08:53 PM
That's OK. We all learn from out mistakes. Sometimes we get so caught up in our own situations that we can't look at it objectively.
Posted By: Kimmie Lee Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 09:12 PM
I just got done reading your thread and I think you really buried the lead in this story.

At first, I was sucked in by your W's "plight" at being a "neglected" spouse, but then you reveal that your wayward W is actually a therapist! That giant sucking sound you now hear is all of the sympathy that I had for her heading south.....

I can fully understand why your parents can't stand her now.

Also, you mention that you have something on OM that could blow him out of the water. I think I would wonder why I am still interested in someone who is still interested in a crumb like the OM.

Send the letter.
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 09:17 PM
She still went to see OM. You have won very little if she is happy to have you as a friend, and OM as her lover. I can see that you had some baby steps, though. The time out is for you to get your thoughts together without her influencing you emotionally. She does that very well.

It feels like you are writing the letter and even contemplating next legal step out of frustration, not out of strength. Write the letter after you have come out of a 'no contact' period.

If she is a MC, then she knows how to play you. You may even think you have won some points, but ultimately, she still went to see OM, and even does not regret the A. I don't know how she can justify this when she is counselling married couples. Just doesn't make sense. It sounds like she is trying to justify the A. She could've easily found herself within the marriage, if she had tried hard enough.

Just giving you some food for thought.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 09:26 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Quote:

don't stop doing it until she's back or gone


That's where I've failed over and over.


We all did.

Puppy
Posted By: Kimmie Lee Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 09:33 PM
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
If she is a MC, then she knows how to play you. You may even think you have won some points, but ultimately, she still went to see OM, and even does not regret the A. I don't know how she can justify this when she is counselling married couples. Just doesn't make sense. It sounds like she is trying to justify the A. She could've easily found herself within the marriage, if she had tried hard enough.

Just giving you some food for thought.



Yep.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 09:55 PM
Oh hell no... she is a marriage counselor????!!! I don't know how I missed that.

Write and send the letter and keep it short and to the point. I am speechless she is a marriage counselor. Lord help the clients she treats if she can't even apply the skills she teaches others for a living in her own life.

My word.

To me that is like a drug addiction specialist shooting up during his/her lunch breaks then going back to treating his/her patients.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 10:03 PM
Quote:

I just got done reading your thread and I think you really buried the lead in this story.

At first, I was sucked in by your W's "plight" at being a "neglected" spouse, but then you reveal that your wayward W is actually a therapist! That giant sucking sound you now hear is all of the sympathy that I had for her heading south.....

I can fully understand why your parents can't stand her now.

Also, you mention that you have something on OM that could blow him out of the water. I think I would wonder why I am still interested in someone who is still interested in a crumb like the OM.


Yeah, I know. Impossible for me to be objective here, but I'll try. I have oscillated in my attitude toward my M over the past few months. Our M was troubled, and I did fail my W in some important ways, especially in the areas of intimacy and closeness. I think the fact that she's a MC makes her expectations in that area very high, and I fell WAAAY below that bar.

However, I have come to see how she failed me too. I was blown away when she offered that up in one of our recent talks. In fact, if she's done one thing to get me back hooked, that was it. She said things I'd wanted to hear for years. For so long she'd been taking the stance that our problems were all my fault, so for her to own up to her role in them was so vindicating.

What I have on OM was really just a variant of exposure. He isn't married, so I didn't have that easy option. I would have needed to be more "creative".

The fact that OM pursued my W while she was living at home with me and our three little kids tells me everything I need to know about him.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 10:25 PM
The whole thing about my W being a MC really is a red herring folks. That's why I haven't brought it up much before. Just because she's a MC doesn't give her some magic powers to avoid the weaknesses and failings of being human.

I did fail her as a H. I abandoned her emotionally and left her to fend for herself, trapped by her vows in isolation. Make no mistake, she tried to get me to come out. I could say she should have been more creative, she should have been more caring, she should have been more patient, blah, blah, blah. I KNOW inside myself that I failed. I knew what she wanted, and I was too much of a coward to put myself out there and be vulnerable. I truly don't think she went looking for an affair, but because of my failing, she was so hungry for connection, she got sucked in very easily.

When the addictive chemicals kicked in, she was just as susecptible as anyone else, and boy was she. She became alien woman, absolutely obsessed with OM. She put her R with him above our M, above our kids, above her career, everything. She threw herself at him. She was an emotional train wreck. Just as expected, that only lasted about 4 or 5 months though. She seems so much more normal now, and when we talk, she's back to the woman I've known, except she's free from feeling shackled by our M, and she's terrified to go back to feeling like that.
Posted By: TrentC Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 10:31 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
Oh hell no... she is a marriage counselor????!!! I don't know how I missed that.

Write and send the letter and keep it short and to the point. I am speechless she is a marriage counselor. Lord help the clients she treats if she can't even apply the skills she teaches others for a living in her own life.


This brings me back to one of my comments from another thread:

Originally Posted By: TrentC
From http://www.marriagefriendlytherapists.com/

Quote:

What do you mean by "marriage friendly"? Are you saying that some therapists are "unfriendly" to marriage?

Therapists on the Registry support a values statement that holds marriage as an important personal, professional, and social value. These therapists believe in helping couples restore their marriages to health if that is possible. Most couples assume this is what all therapists believe. But it's not so. Because of their professional training, many therapists hold a "neutral" value orientation towards whether a marriage survives or whether the couple divorces. In fact, this is the most common stance even among therapists who identify themselves as marriage and family therapists.

[Emphasis mine] In a national survey of over 1,000 marriage and family therapists, over 60 percent indicated that they are "neutral" on marriage versus divorce for their clients. Only one-third said they "I am committed to preserving marriage and avoiding divorce whenever possible." Disturbingly, 2.4% said they frequently recommend divorce. (You can contact us for the citation for this peer reviewed journal article.) The bottom line: most therapists are neutral when marriages are in trouble, whereas therapists on the Registry aim to directly support the viability of troubled marriages. This is a big difference, and it’s why we use the term "marriage friendly."
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/19/09 10:34 PM
MC or not - if you want out of the M the do so before you start things up with somebody else. There is nothing more cruel than having an affair and *any* MC, pro marriage or pro divorce should know that.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 04:56 AM
The thing I'm hesitating about the letter is that it sounds angry, and I don't want to sound angry, I just want to sound done. How about:


W-

This is ridiculous, and boring. I've decided to move on. Life is too short to waste on this nonsense. If you ever decide what you want, let me know. Maybe I'll still be interested, although at this point, I can't imagine why.

In the mean time, I need to push forward with the legal separation so I'm free to pursue a new life. I'll manage to find the money for my half, and if you can't cover your half, I'll cover that too and just take $100 off your monthly support until it's paid off.

I'll contact the mediator and arrange a time for us all to meet to get it done.

H
Posted By: Deep Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 05:12 AM
future (FU just sounds so rude), just popping in with another 2 cts (and glad you got a laugh out of my last post). smile

I'm aghast at your W given her profession, but then again we're all human.

I'm really in no position to give expert advice but parts of what you wrote sounds like you're still throwing a hissy fit at W.

Why not simply:

W-

I've decided I won't subject myself to continued disrespect or my kids to unnecessary pain. I'm moving on.

Legal separation is my next step in protecting myself and my family. Please let me know how you intend to cover your half of the expense; if I don't hear from you by <Date>, I'll proceed to cover that too and just take $100 off your monthly support until it's paid off.

I'll contact the mediator and arrange a time for us all to meet to get it done.

H

Posted By: TrentC Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 05:16 AM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
The thing I'm hesitating about the letter is that it sounds angry, and I don't want to sound angry, I just want to sound done. How about:


A little editing recommendation here and there...

Originally Posted By: futureunknown

W-

This is ridiculous, and boring. I've decided to move on. Life is too short to waste on this nonsense. If you ever decide what you want, let me know. Maybe I'll still be interested, although at this point, I can't imagine why.

In the mean time, I need to push forward with the legal separation so I'm free to pursue a new life. I'll manage to find the money for my half, and if you can't cover your half, I'll cover that too and just take $100 off your monthly support until it's paid off. (Let whoever is putting together the support agreement figure out how that is to be handled.)

I'll contact the mediator and arrange a time for us all to meet to get it done.

H
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 05:17 AM
And oh yeah, I'm VERY familiar with how marriage counselors and therapists work, obviously, and yes, the majority are marriage neutral. I knew I was screwed when the MC my W and I were seeing last year got divorced while we were going to her. I noticed the name on her business card changed, and when I noted that to my W, she said "Oh, she got divorced." I said "That's terrible!" and my W replied "Why, they're both a lot happier now." At that moment I knew I was fighting a losing battle.

I'm even shocked at my W's colleague, who's also a marriage and family therapist, and very conservative and religious. At first she seemed to support my committment to keep my family together, but as soon as she heard all the exciting stories from my W about her A, she forgot about me and what our kids were going through and jumped right on board supporting my W and being there for her. She was having serious problems in her own M, and I think she started living vicariously through my W.

That brings up another interesting tidbit though. About a month ago when my W and I had one of our talks, it started by me asking about a married couple who were friends of ours, now mostly hers. My W said she needed to have an intervention with the wife, and I asked why. She said the wife, who had also become enamoured with my W's tales of romantic paradise, told her she was thinking of having an A. Now you can imagine what I'm thinking sitting there listening to this. I started getting damn angry, but my wife looked sad, and said she told her "Is that what you want? Do you want to get divorced? Do you want to only see your kids half the time? You sit your husband down, and it doesn't matter how hard it is, you make him listen and understand what you need." What a bizarre experience that was for me, but I felt closer to my W after that. I think it was her strange way of showing me regret.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 05:22 AM
Quote:

(Let whoever is putting together the support agreement figure out how that is to be handled.)


That's the ONE THING the mediator will not touch. It's up to us to figure out how to pay her.
Posted By: TrentC Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 05:24 AM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Quote:

(Let whoever is putting together the support agreement figure out how that is to be handled.)


That's the ONE THING the mediator will not touch. It's up to us to figure out how to pay her.


OK, fair enough.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 05:24 AM
Quote:

I'm really in no position to give expert advice but parts of what you wrote sounds like you're still throwing a hissy fit at W.


Wow, I was really trying to sound matter of fact, like I've just had enough and I don't want to bother any more. Interesting how everyone has different takes on this. I love getting the different viewpoints. When writing something, it's impossible to not read it back through the emotions I felt as I wrote it.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 08:39 AM
doesn't need to be more than 3-4 lines.

"I need to move on so let's finish this as amicably and efficiently as possible. I'll contact the mediator and..."

She can always make moves toward a reconciliation WITH EFFORT you'd need anyhow, in order to trust. But more wording sounds like a tactic to get her back and does NOT sound professional or done (& none of this "if you want to get back then call me...blah blah blah = pursuit)

If you want to move on or at least move on and still hope she changes her mind, keep it VERY simple and short. The more you write, the more details...the more there is to offend or analyze and critisize. Be mysterious and short. I have 2 family members who div only to remarry years later. It happens. And yes, they were happier the 2nd time around but no, none of them waited for the other to return. All 4 (2 couples) changed and grew while apart but maintained some contact due to kids.

They truly detached and let go and moved on. And later, when they had crossed to the other shore and explored, they were able to look back on what they had left and could see it more clearly for the first time. Mind you, that's not always the case when you see your m with open eyes. You may feel badly about your own part in all this or you may feel your ex did you a favor. My older sister's h left her with 3 kids after 22 yrs and she was heartsick...but he had always been the "taker" in the M....and now that she has moved on and remarried, she'd NEVER go back to her exh b/c she has 'awakened' to what her exh was really like and though she had no choice at the time, now she's so much happier. Her ex did her a favor. Who knows what you'll feel when you cross to the other side? Give it a real shot. But when you write that you are moving on, don't bluff. If she calls the bluff you have to go through with it or have no credibility. Besides, it's not over til there's a ring on her finger and "I do" comes from lips of her and OM...

In the meantime know that no woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of a man with HER/HIS children...be the best dad you can be. For me, it's like foreplay. And stay strong and calm. Have you read anything on "forgiveness" b/c in mho, the single biggest reason WASs do not come home is because they do not believe they will be forgiven and usually, they are right.

No one wants to have a mistake thrown into their face for the rest of their life, so the trust issue is two ways; how does she know you won't hold this over her head forever and thereby doom you two to misery for good? Plus if you do throw it into her face, it'll force her to EVENTUALLY defend the choice (if only to herself) and you'll be in deep water then...
You've heard that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself...well Forgiveness is also a learned skill that takes work and practice.
God won't put you somewhere that you are truly stuck in misery. Trust.
j-

ps try Marianne Williamson's book Return to Love, or The Gift of Change to see if her words on forgiveness or her exercises on it help you. "Return to love" was very helpful to me--a section on "Handling Fear and Anger" especially.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 01:14 PM
Oh for god's sakes, just SEND SOMETHING!!!!!!

That would be my "vote." cool

You're dithering.

Puppy
Posted By: antlers Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 01:23 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
In the meantime know that no woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of a man with HER/HIS children...be the best dad you can be.


I think this is good advice and I've seen you post it many times on this board, and I believe it too...although in some instances, such as mine, I don't think the woman is 'moved' by anything that her husband does...even being loving and compassionate to their children.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 05:48 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
When writing something, it's impossible to not read it back through the emotions I felt as I wrote it.


thats the problem with these kinda of notes. and then you dont know if she will ever read it or read it and think, oh jeez not again. and things go on as they always have and you get nowhere.

best thing to send her if you feel compelled to send her anything are divorce papers to sign and a settlement agreement adressed from your attorney.

i still think you will get better results if you give her a taste of her own medicine. get a girlfreind experience different results.
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 07:48 PM
I agree with Steve McQueen, and I said so a couple of days ago. "The next communication to your wife should be from your attorney", but give it a couple of 'no contact' weeks to make sure if you are ready for this step. By not, at least, making the effort to honour your request to talk, she is holding up her middle finger, saying "I will talk when I want." She is using the "I need space and time" nonsense to shut you up. I am dramatizing this somewhat, but she knows d*mn well what she's doing. Yes, MC's can also fall --- they are human, but they also have training and can use it for "good" or "evil" --- to help or manipulate.

Just saying. If she wants to get back with you, even a little, she would've made the effort to talk and not made you wait, write letters, repeated yourself for an audience.

Boy, she's good! Just saying!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 08:27 PM
I don't have an attorney. As CityGirl as so eloquently put, going that route in NY is asking for a world of misery and five figure costs. We have been working in mediation, which is just her and me and the mediator. The only thing I can do is ask her to go back to mediation and get our agreement finished.

Truthfully, mediation is where I've had the advantage by far. I have her agreeing to support way below what she could probably get a court to force me to pay, I've got the child custody split the way I wanted, and I have her giving up her claim on most of my assets. All hollow victories when I've lost my family.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 08:37 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I don't have an attorney.


Fair enough. But does your WIFE know that?

Funny thing about some of these atty's, they give free initial consultations. Some of the best, most ruthless ones even have the attys' BUSINESS CARDS in their lobbies, I've heard. These business cards have been known to be left lying around sometimes, very carelessly, where anyone could find them. Computers have been known to be left with a page about "Cash Advance FAQs" minimized.

Just wouldn't want any of that carelessness to happen to you, my friend. wink

Puppy
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 08:53 PM
Future,

"it ain't over 'til... fat lady justice farts."

Until then...

Originally Posted By: Gnosis
So.... moral of the story.... KEEP DOING WHAT WORKS and don't stop doing it until she's back or gone. From what I can see... she wants a MAN who can play hardball.


If the letter is so complicated then pick up the phone and call her. Just spit it out... "Hey W. I've been thinking and have decided. Let's get this done and out of the way. I've made an appointment for {date & time} to meet with the mediator and finalize this. I'll see you there."

Originally Posted By: Gnosis
When communicating with a WAW I imply, but never state, that it should always be in a Cool, Calm, Collected and Confident manner. The 4C's.


No need for a note. No need to hem and haw. No proof or evidence that can be used against you.

After that call I won't be surprised if she finds plenty of free time to call you and try arrange for a meeting. For the next 7 days after that YOU play phone tag. Don't answer calls. Let them go to voice mail. You return the calls at KNOWN inconvenient hours for her. Let her chase you.

Also... during this time you are "DONE" remember? NO R TALK. You've had enough (supposedly.) Pull this off and I'll send you a DB Oscar.

Just my 2c.

Oh, and anyone else going on about his wife being an MC... it means very little. At work she's an outsider looking in. Forests and trees apply to her too. What? Do you think she's special or something? Nope. She's not a robot, she's human. Same as any other WAW. No different. I was tempted to say something about my own sitch. here but it don't really matter. JUST take my word for it, OK?
Posted By: chatterbug Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/20/09 08:54 PM
Heh PDT. I did that with a card. And also some free paper work that they have as well. It was the only WAS proof part of the house I left about.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/21/09 07:14 AM
I decided to go with very simple. I sent this:


W-

I've decided I want to get the separation agreement done. This year if at all possible. I'll scrape up the money for my half of the cost, and if you can't afford your half right now, I'll cover that too and you can pay me back.

I'll send a note to the mediator to find a time that works for all of us.

H


I followed it up with a message to the mediator cc'd to my W asking for an appointment to finish up our agreement.

Then I followed that up with another message to my W indicating I would be taking the kids on my own for Thanksgiving, and she could pick them up Friday morning.

Sure enough, within a half hour of sending the messages, my cell phone rang. I didn't answer it. She left a message. She had her hurt puppy act going, like I just kicked her while she was down. She asked "Why do you all of a sudden want to get this done before the end of the year? I have no emotional energy left to deal with this. The earliest I'll can possibly do mediation is January. We can talk if you want to. Give me a call." I didn't call.

Later in the evening I needed to ask her when our youngest daughter's gymnastics class is in the morning, so I sent her a text simply asking when the class was. She ignored my request. So now in the morning I'll have to call the gymnastics school and ask them when my own daughter's class is so I can go watch her.

Is this going to get ugly now? Any ideas on what I should expect?
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/21/09 02:44 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Sure enough, within a half hour of sending the messages, my cell phone rang. I didn't answer it. She left a message.

Good job.

Quote:
She had her hurt puppy act going, like I just kicked her while she was down. She asked "Why do you all of a sudden want to get this done before the end of the year?

Emotional blackmail. Purpose: To guilt you into backing down and step back in line with her program.
Your attitude: "Sorry honey it don't work like that. You can't string me along anymore. I want out and I want it NOW." NOTE: Nothing about your feelings, you hear me? A MAN talks about what he wants. Now is NOT the time to be a sensitive, touchy-feely wimp.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I have no emotional energy left to deal with this. The earliest I'll can possibly do mediation is January.

Now you KNOW what her plan was all along. To have a nice "holiday" period while you were living in limbo.
When you talk about it again you tell her, "I want this done ASAP, I have no emotional energy left to wait until January." CREATE the CRISIS. Don't just give up, keep pushing her for a date before January. You WANT to create as much emotional strain on her as possible. If she's going to wake up, this is the only way.

Quote:
"We can talk if you want to. Give me a call." I didn't call.

Good. Hold the line here.

Now is the time for you to initiate contact. Make sure the times you initiate are the most inconvenient for her. i.e at work, just before she goes to sleep. Keep up the pace. Calls, emails, texts... the whole nine yards. Make sure her mind is focused on you, consumed on thoughts by you.

It's your turn to play the role of WAS now. Pick up the script and act it out.

RULES OF THUMB: "I am done." You WILL NOT guilt her. You DO NOT share your feelings with her. You are always happy and upbeat. When she calls (and it's convenient for you) you answer, "Hi" with a cheery voice. When you hear her you drop the happy tone down a notch. "Oh, it's you." If the call is about the kids, deal with it. If the call is about R talk you say, "I don't want to talk about that. The only thing I'm interested in is the date of the mediator meeting. Have you got it yet?" ... If no then "Then we don't have anything to talk about. Bye." ... If yes then, "Great! I'm looking forward to it. See you there."

Quote:
She ignored my request.

WAW speak: You hurt me so I don't need to tell you anything.

Quote:
Is this going to get ugly now? Any ideas on what I should expect?

This will only get ugly if you allow it to. Don't react to anything she says or does. Keep pushing for the mediation. By sending the message you are done, she'll be thinking about YOU and the kids. Create the crisis to keep things focused on you and not the OM and her fantasy.

Expect her to tell you, "I was thinking of coming back, but now I see that I did the right thing. You'll never change. I knew that you were a cold-hearted SOB. You've lost me now... blah blah blah... Anything to hurt you and pull you back in line with her program. All she will be spewing is WAW BS.

You should welcome the ugly. Ugly is the NEW good. Don't forget to keep up the phone tag. If she calls and leaves a message. You WAIT. This keeps her attention on YOU and not anywhere else. i.e. Did he get my message, what is he thinking, how is he going to respond. Remember that feeling? I'm sure you do. Leave her hanging. The longer she hangs the better your odds.

Play scenarios in your head. You know better than us what your buttons are that she likes to push. Expect them... Be [b]Cool, Calm, Collected and Confident[b] when you respond. Enforce your personal boundaries. e.g. "W, when you talk like that it reminds me of our daughter when we take away her toys. It's unattractive. Please calm down and talk like an adult because if you cannot I will hangup."

Assertive, strong, confident, in-control, take charge, leader -- attractive traits a woman looks for that create respect.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/21/09 06:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Gnosis


Expect her to tell you, "I was thinking of coming back, but now I see that I did the right thing. You'll never change. I knew that you were a cold-hearted SOB. You've lost me now... blah blah blah...


Oh, COUNT on it. 100%.

Puppy
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/21/09 07:53 PM
I agree with Gnosis, 100%. And, roaring crowd cheers to you Future --- you went with what was right for you, and it seems to be working. How pathetic that she had no thought to your emotions when she started the A. I bet it was somewhat inconvenient to you too.

Cheating spouses sure irritate me hugely. My H whined about so much, and tried to justify things by putting me down, but who was begging me to take him back, on the floor, when I decided enough was enough, and I showed strength.

Expect whining, complaining, self-centredness (it's all about her and her needs over the various holidays), childishness (such as not letting you know about your child's event) --- she is showing her true colors now. While you were complacent and flexible for her, then all was right in her little world, but now there are cracks showing, like an earthquake.

Good luck! Things are going to shake!
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/21/09 08:06 PM
I am glad you sent the letter you did. I think it was perfect and I am glad you are handling things as you are.

We are FINALLY legally separated and my H is *still* whining and justifying his affair. He certainly wasn't worried when he was spending 1200-1500 per month on partying with OW and taking trips all over the place for nearly 2 years. But now he is saying he might not be able to afford to live on his own, he might have to get a second job or live with his mom. LOL!

One day I hope to say to him "told you so". Had he just agreed to the legal separation 21 months ago he would not be in the financial crunch he is in now and will be for the next 3 years. But CityGirl was not playing around smile NOW he says he wasn't thinking and he kicks himself every day for not agreeing to the legal separation almost 2 years ago. But he refused and dragged us through the court system for well over a year. Once he saw how the legal separation could benefit him, well, he was all over it. And I was under no obligation to comply. I did. It worked out just fine for me!

Be strong. You did good. Don't let her whining or "emotional distress" or any other BS she throws your way (and expect a heavy dose of it) get you off track.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/21/09 08:29 PM
Another thing you can count on Future. If she's interested she's going to be testing you relentlessly. These little tests comes in various forms so be on the lookout. The reason? To latch you back onto plan B. Hold the line.

Test: You don't love me anymore.
Test: You won't be able to forgive me
Test: Do you still love me?

Standard responses until she can PROVE there is no more OM:

- I'm not sure.
- I'll need to think about that.
- I don't know.

and then add, "I just feel like I don't know you anymore."

Test: You aren't my friend anymore.
Resp: You can't say that. Friends come in many different ways and forms.

Test: Why are you being so mean?
Resp: I'm not being mean. I'm giving you what you asked for.

Test: How could you do this to me?
Resp: Do what?
Her : Blah... blah... blah...
Resp: I'm sorry you feel that way. I just need some space to enjoy my life.

Prep yourself. Memorize The Four C's. If you can, share some of your feelings without guilting her (It's hard, I know...)

For anyone else reading this, don't forget, this is a last resort. The goal is still to get her back... but this time she has to work for it.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/21/09 09:00 PM
When I got up, she had left a nice text telling me when my daughter's class was. Then she called and was all cheery asking me to bring my son's basketball shirt with me (his game is after my daughter's class). She asked if I was going to our daughter's class, I said yes, she was upbeat and said "Ok, see you there."

When I got there, she had bought a donut and coffee for me. She had her uber kindly act going, and it's convincing, let me assure you. She knows I melt in response to it. She looked great too.

She didn't say anything about mediation or my request. She did ask about our schedule around Thanksgiving and was agreeable to my requests.

She did say we could get together to talk, tentatively this evening. The thing is, what do I say? The whole point of insisting on getting the separation done was because she didn't respect my boundary of not living in an open marriage. Should I reiterate it as the reason for my insistance on getting the separation done? What if she says she has or will end it with OM? Do I yield then, at least on the separation point? Or do I say "Too late, I'm done, I just want to get this over with."
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/21/09 09:17 PM
Future, future, future... shaking my head. You're being tested. I told you she would be pushing your buttons!

button: I'll be nice to him and see if he's serious.
button: I'll get him to talk

Let me ask you a question and I want you to think about it seriously... really seriously. Are you happy chewing on whatever leftover bones she throws your way?

Quote:
She didn't say anything about mediation or my request.

Of course she won't!!!!

Quote:
She did say we could get together to talk, tentatively this evening. The thing is, what do I say?

Cancel it. You have nothing left to say.

What results have your words gotten you so far? Nothing.
You're being played. Wake up.

I bow down and admit defeat. Good luck future.
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/22/09 02:47 AM
Hi Future! Did you decide to talk to her? I think that if you do, you stay very aloof. Even if everything magically turns around, you arent done DBing!

Even when she wanted to talk and everything before, when you gave in to her requests, it didnt change anything.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/22/09 08:00 PM
Tough to find time to post when I've got the kids for the weekend!

I had to leave yesterday morning before any of the responses came in, so I was on my own. I tried to react with a friendly but distant demeanor. As usual, she did manage to disarm me somewhat.

Quote:

Let me ask you a question and I want you to think about it seriously... really seriously. Are you happy chewing on whatever leftover bones she throws your way?


No. I am finding myself thinking much more about what I want and what I'll be satisfied with in the future. Even as I imagine possible reconciliation with my W, I am keeping in mind that I have other options. On the morning of my marathon, a bunch of my friends, including two women, set their alarms early so they could wake up and send me encouraging text messages before the race. I was nervously getting ready in my hotel room and my phone started going nuts with messages coming in. Really helped calm my nerves and fire me up to have a good race. I noticed one person conspicuously absent from that group, and that fact has stuck with me. However, when I finished the race, I checked my phone, and there was a message from her saying she was hoping my race was going well.

Here's what happened last night. Gnosis, although I understand why you're saying there's nothing to talk about, look back at what Puppy said a while back in response to Steve McQueen. My history with my W requires me to make myself clear. I am hamstrung a bit because I was so moody during my M. If my W sees me acting aloof or distant, it brings up old familiar reactions in her that do me no good. So I did want to talk to her tonight to state why I was insisting on completing the separation.

It didn't take long. We talked on the phone to arrange a time to meet, and ended up just doing it on the phone. She asked "What is it you want to talk about?" I said "When I agreed to delay our separation, I clearly stated what my expectation was." She sounded tired and defeated. She said "OM and I broke off all communication a few days ago, for good." She caught me off guard with her frank declaration. She said "I'm not dating anyone else, I don't want to date anyone else. If you want to date someone, that's up to you." I don't have any money or anything inside to deal with mediation. I'm facing two major holidays without my kids for much of the time. I said "Well, that's part of what was at issue here, what my position was going to be regarding how we handle the holidays." She said "I think we should handle them whatever way is best for the kids, regardless of what's going on between you and me." I said "If our marriage and family are over and done, then I think what would be best is for the kids to start accepting that."

She said "This doesn't change anything between you and me. The problems in our marriage are the same as they were a month ago. We're both a lot healthier now, which is good, but it's not like our marriage has new life or something. We're still separated and living separate lives." I said "Oh I know, absolutely, but this is topic number one. The alternative is ending our marriage and moving on, since I am not going to live under those conditions." She asked if I was going bring the kids to her Mom's place for Thanksgiving, where she will be. I said "I have another option, but I haven't decided yet. Given what we talked about here, I'm willing for us to do Thanksgiving together, so I'll tell your Mom we're coming."

That was about it. Our demeanor turned lighter then, and we joked that it only took about ten minutes to discuss this thing that's been hanging between us for a month. I told her I had to go, I had plans (which I did). She sincerely replied "Have a good time." She sounded so exhausted, I said "You get some sleep ok?"

I don't know how I did. My tone was very calm, but I tried to make it strong and decisive. I didn't talk about my feelings. I simply stated and stuck to my boundary, that unless she broke it off with OM then our M was over, I was moving on, and we wouldn't be doing any more things together as a family.

What I noticed is that her whole position was all about her, her, her. As CityGirl has discussed, it's so telling that they ignore what they've put us through. All she wanted was consideration for what she's going through. She did give me what I wanted, but I wish I had been able to think quicker on my feet and ask "Why?" when she said it was over with OM.

So, do I trust that she's truly ended it with OM? Do I ask her for tranparency? I can just imagine it now. I'll say "W, given how you lied to and deceived me last year, I can't just take you at your word when you say it's over. I'm going to need to be able to verify it on my own if I'm going to stay in this." She'll act annoyed and insulted and say "What do you want?" I'll say "I need all the passwords to your phone accounts and mail accounts, and I need to be able to go through your laptop to see that all messages and contacts are deleted." She'll either throw a fit and say no, in which case I have to enforce my boundary again, or she'll act all defeated and just say "Fine. I don't care any more." No way she'll actually give me consideration and say "I understand, this must have been so hard on you and I'm sorry. Although it makes me uncomfortable, I'm okay with you checking that way." In my dreams.

I'm not really sure where to go with DBing from here. If her A is over, then I guess my strategy has to change, but after all this, I need to pull back and live my life. We'll see how Thanksgiving goes.

Quote:

What results have your words gotten you so far? Nothing.
You're being played. Wake up.

I bow down and admit defeat. Good luck future.


I know I probably could have got this better in my favor had I held a harder line for the last several months, but I didn't, and here's where I am. I hope you all don't give up on me now!
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/22/09 09:11 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
As usual, she did manage to disarm me somewhat.

That's OK. Practice makes perfect.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I am finding myself thinking much more about what I want and what I'll be satisfied with in the future. Even as I imagine possible reconciliation with my W, I am keeping in mind that I have other options.

Good, this is healthy. Just don't forget the goal here is still to get her back.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I noticed one person conspicuously absent from that group, and that fact has stuck with me. However, when I finished the race, I checked my phone, and there was a message from her saying she was hoping my race was going well.

You were setting yourself up for disappointment there. I'm glad she sent you that message. Don't try to figure out what's going on in her head.... when you don't even know what's going on in your own.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Here's what happened last night. Gnosis, although I understand why you're saying there's nothing to talk about.....

Hey, I ain't your Papa... and don't wanna be either.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
My history with my W requires me to make myself clear. I am hamstrung a bit because I was so moody during my M. If my W sees me acting aloof or distant, it brings up old familiar reactions in her that do me no good. So I did want to talk to her tonight to state why I was insisting on completing the separation.

This is A-OK with me. I'm only human and make mistakes too. Never forget that the advice given here is based on the limited information at hand. God gave you have a mind of your own and expects you to use it. All we can do is point out tactics and provide perspective. We arm you with information and you have the choice to use it.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I said "When I agreed to delay our separation, I clearly stated what my expectation was." She sounded tired and defeated.

This is not your problem. One word: Consequences. See what happens when you take action?

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She said "OM and I broke off all communication a few days ago, for good."

That's nice to hear.... now you know why she was tired and defeated. She was mourning her loss of the OM and her fantasy. Let her mourn, but don't believe it yet.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She said "I'm not dating anyone else, I don't want to date anyone else. If you want to date someone, that's up to you."

Test: Fishing expedition.
WAW speak: "Are you seeing someone else? Is it really over?" Ignore it. Continue to do what works.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I don't have any money or anything inside to deal with mediation.

I hope you stuck to your guns here. Remember... You're "still done". Don't change tack yet. It's too soon. Keep pushing the fact you're willing to come up with the cash. You're WAS remember?

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I'm facing two major holidays without my kids for much of the time. I said "Well, that's part of what was at issue here, what my position was going to be regarding how we handle the holidays." She said "I think we should handle them whatever way is best for the kids, regardless of what's going on between you and me."

Remember what I said about crisis? Cool. Keep fanning the flames.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I said "If our marriage and family are over and done, then I think what would be best is for the kids to start accepting that."

Bzzzt! Wrong answer. Remember... you're WAS. Remove the "If" at the beginning of the sentence and the "then" after the comma for the best answer.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She said "This doesn't change anything between you and me.

Yeah.. right! wink You just dunno the new Future! You did good there with the rest of the answer.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She asked if I was going bring the kids to her Mom's place for Thanksgiving, where she will be. I said "I have another option, but I haven't decided yet. Given what we talked about here, I'm willing for us to do Thanksgiving together, so I'll tell your Mom we're coming."

Bravo. Nice gesture. Good move. When it comes, enjoy it. Be lighthearted, happy and fun. Go find three jokes to memorize and practice telling them... and then on T-day be the life of the party.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I don't know how I did. My tone was very calm, but I tried to make it strong and decisive. I didn't talk about my feelings.

I for one thing you did excellent. Keep it up.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I simply stated and stuck to my boundary, that unless she broke it off with OM then our M was over, I was moving on, and we wouldn't be doing any more things together as a family.

And despite her revelations... nothing has changed. You keep pushing for the mediation ASAP until she tells you that it's not what she wants. It is possible she told you what she did about OM to shut you up. Cheaters lie. Period.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
What I noticed is that her whole position was all about her, her, her.

Proof. Nothing's changed. Keep rocking the boat.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
All she wanted was consideration for what she's going through. She did give me what I wanted, but I wish I had been able to think quicker on my feet and ask "Why?" when she said it was over with OM.

Nope. She gave you what you wanted to hear. Nothing else.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
So, do I trust that she's truly ended it with OM?

No. Not at this moment.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Do I ask her for tranparency?

NO. She has not asked to reconcile has she? She has not said, "I want to give this another try." She IS an MC... so will be expecting this when she is ready. SHE IS NOWHERE NEAR ready yet.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I can just imagine it now.

Get this crap out of your head. Now is not the time. You continue with the game plan. You are WAS. You want out. You have options. You are having a FABULOUS time without her.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I'm not really sure where to go with DBing from here.

Keep doing what we've been telling you this past week.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
If her A is over, then I guess my strategy has to change, but after all this, I need to pull back and live my life. We'll see how Thanksgiving goes.

YES. Let's see how T-day goes. Make sure you've got your new, hot, single, stud on the loose look taken care of by then.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I know I probably could have got this better in my favor had I held a harder line for the last several months, but I didn't, and here's where I am.

That's why I've kept my trap shut and just followed your situation until now. You weren't ready for it. Only when you have nothing to lose and have completely let go of the grip of fear can you move on. For some it takes weeks, others months... others never.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I hope you all don't give up on me now!

I'm still here banging away at the keyboard aren't I? wink

Congratulations. FutureUnknown... BTW maybe it's time to change your name to "IHaveDecided"
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/23/09 10:31 PM
Thanks Gnosis for the detailed feedback.

Quote:

Quote:

I am finding myself thinking much more about what I want and what I'll be satisfied with in the future. Even as I imagine possible reconciliation with my W, I am keeping in mind that I have other options.

Good, this is healthy. Just don't forget the goal here is still to get her back.


Sometimes I think it would be better if I did forget that!


Quote:

Quote:

I don't have any money or anything inside to deal with mediation.

I hope you stuck to your guns here. Remember... You're "still done". Don't change tack yet. It's too soon. Keep pushing the fact you're willing to come up with the cash. You're WAS remember?


I actually didn't address it one way or the other. Today I got an e-mail from W to mediator and me saying she couldn't meet until January. I had previoudsly said I was okay with delaying our separation provided I wasn't living in an open marriage. Given what she said to me, how do I continue to push the mediation without looking like I've gone back on my word? Simply say I've changed my mind?

Quote:

Quote:

She asked if I was going bring the kids to her Mom's place for Thanksgiving, where she will be. I said "I have another option, but I haven't decided yet. Given what we talked about here, I'm willing for us to do Thanksgiving together, so I'll tell your Mom we're coming."

Bravo. Nice gesture. Good move. When it comes, enjoy it. Be lighthearted, happy and fun. Go find three jokes to memorize and practice telling them... and then on T-day be the life of the party.


No problem there. That's one area I've excelled at throughout this whole thing. I can easily have her laughing or sharing a meaningful conversation. Those are the times I'm so perplexed as to why she doesn't appear to want to be with me.

Quote:

Quote:

If her A is over, then I guess my strategy has to change, but after all this, I need to pull back and live my life. We'll see how Thanksgiving goes.

YES. Let's see how T-day goes. Make sure you've got your new, hot, single, stud on the loose look taken care of by then.


I think I've done okay here too. I actually enjoy shopping for clothes now. I'll make sure I'm looking good.

Quote:

Quote:

I know I probably could have got this better in my favor had I held a harder line for the last several months, but I didn't, and here's where I am.

That's why I've kept my trap shut and just followed your situation until now. You weren't ready for it. Only when you have nothing to lose and have completely let go of the grip of fear can you move on. For some it takes weeks, others months... others never.


I am embarrassed how long it's taken me. I think back to some of the things I did and said earlier this year and I cringe!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/23/09 10:47 PM
There is a concert here in a couple weeks by an artist that is one of my W's faves. Don't want to pursue, but do want opportunity for us to spend time together and re-bond. Is there any way I could or should open the possibility of going to the concert with her? I could just bring it up casually on Thanksgiving, like "W, are you going to see XXXXX in a couple weeks?" Then just play it by ear based on her response.

If she says "Yeah, I'm going with so and so" I just nod and say "Great! Should be an awesome time!"

If she says "I didn't know XXXXX was playing here!" I say "Oh, I thought for sure you'd know and would already have tickets."

If she says "No, I'd love to, but I can't afford it, plus I don't have anyone to go with anyway" I say "Yeah, too bad."

If she gives one of the last two responses and her demeanor is forward to me, I could make a joke and say "Would it be weird for two estranged spouses to go with each other?"

If there's no way to even broach this without appearing to be pursuing, I'll just drop it. I KNOW she'd love to go with me, but I somehow have to flip it so she feels like I'm doing HER a favor by going with her.

Maybe I should just make my own plans and reply "I'm going, got great seats! Can't wait! Gonna be awesome!" and let her wonder who I'm going with. We often went to concerts together and I had a knack for getting great seats, which she loved. I guarantee if I say that she'll be jealous, but the thing is, if I don't go with her, I'm not really interested in seeing XXXXX. Just not that into them.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/23/09 10:54 PM
Slap on the forehead... what part of "Be the WAS" don't you understand?
Posted By: Gardener Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/23/09 10:57 PM
Hijack
Hey, Gnosis,
I finally (just) got back to you on my thread.
End hijack
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/23/09 11:20 PM
I was just asking! LOL! I am not vesting in going at all. That's why I said I would only do it if I could make her think I was doing it as a favor to HER. It's a thing we used to do together that I'm sure she misses. Perhaps I should bring it up just so I can purposely NOT ask her!
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/24/09 02:04 AM
She'll see thru that in about two seconds, Future!
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/24/09 02:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Gnosis
Slap on the forehead... what part of "Be the WAS" don't you understand?


whatcha teachin' gnosis ;-)

i love you but i'm not in love with you.

repeat that to yourself, future, repeat it over and over and over and over until every interaction you have with your wife you reek of it. like onions on your breath. Be the WAS. experience different results.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/24/09 02:45 AM
Quote:

She'll see thru that in about two seconds, Future!


I thought so, but I needed it bashed into my dense head. That's why I brought it up here, so you folks can prevent me from convincing myself otherwise.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/24/09 02:46 AM
Happy to oblige. cool
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/24/09 02:55 AM
Some folks here have so much anger between them and their WAS. My problem is the opposite. I know we would have a great time going to the concert. She knows it too, that's why she'd accept in a second if I asked her. Makes it so tempting for me. ILYBNILWY. ILYBNILWY. ILYBNILWY. LOL!
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/24/09 06:26 PM
Originally Posted By: antlers
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
In the meantime know that no woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of a man with HER/HIS children...be the best dad you can be.


I think this is good advice and I've seen you post it many times on this board, and I believe it too...although in some instances, such as mine, I don't think the woman is 'moved' by anything that her husband does...even being loving and compassionate to their children.


Antlers...I'm sorry about your sitch. You know I am. But I stand by my words. I say them b/c they are so true. Of the women I know who are divorced, (judging by my recent class reunion, that's a LOT) the ones who stayed M longer than they thought they should, ALL said they stayed b/c "he was such a good father" and the ones who reconciled or tried to, ALL said "He was a good father/the kids love him so much/they're so close"...etc. And the ones who ended up divorced have better visitation and happier kids, b/c the fathers were good men who put their children first. I also have seen at least one woman end her 2nd m (to the OM) b/c he was NOT good with the kids...who knows? I think a reconciliation with her 1st h may happen in that case.

And of the couples who are still married, ALL the wives mentioned how their h's are "good fathers". So heck yes, I think it matters a lot to mothers. Enough to reverse a MLC or whatever your w is doing? Evidently not...or not yet....

And for that, I am truly sorry. You know, it doesn't mean she's not moved though...just means something else is in her priority sights right now. And believe me, when h was in his "whatever the hell it was" (aka MLC but I hate that term sometimes) I cannot tell you what was in his sights for I could not ever relate to it, and he was NOT a good father but he had been very involved before that. So in time, seems he really missed it all. And his being a good father before, did make a big difference in our reconciliation. I know if I had NO memories of him being involved as a good dad, I might not have cared as much about saving things...

Sorry for the hijack.
Good luck Antlers,
j-
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/24/09 06:46 PM
Future,

your problem may be that you don't know if you want a reconciliation, if that is where your w is headed. It can come to this I know. Been there, done that. And it makes us attractive to the WASs apparently. Which confuses us a lot. Sometimes I think it's as if they don't want to come to our party but they sure want to be invited! AND then we go through the same things...

So remember, if a reconciliation is at least a possibility and since you have kids, it should at least be a consideration, then she will have to know at some point that you won't hold the A over her head forever like the sword of Damacles...I know, you are thinking, "Screw that! SHE'S the one who I can't trust!"

But the thing is, I think a lot of m's end and don't reconcile b/c the WAS does not think they'll ever be forgiven -- and you know, they're often right. The LBSer does not know how to truly forgive, or worse, does not truly want to do it. They want the WAS to return to suffer or "teach them a lesson" etc. I know you're not like that but be careful. For me, learning to forgive and really doing it, was a profound but difficult journey- that I am still on.

For a happy lasting marital restoration, at some point you both will have to be able to envision a life together that's happy & satisfying, and that will require forgiveness and trust and a leap of faith on both ends. You'll have to trust her not to cheat again (HUGE) and she'll have to trust that you won't throw it in her face or try to shame her, or be nasty or withhold love from her...and both of these things will take time. Both of you are going to have to re-build trust.

Of course, if you do prefer singledom...that's another story. But don't make light of forgiveness. It's incredibly hard and I still backslide, and then I'm the problem. Know what I mean? In any event, you are getting good tactical advice here for the most part. But remember to stay focussed on your goal...and ask whether something seems to be working not just to get a change in your w, but to move you closer to the goal. And now and then, double check that goal. Is it what you still want? Be open...marriages can reconcile and actually improve to what you wanted, had before, or become even deeper. Yes, it happens.

Good luck,
j-
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/24/09 10:05 PM
Hi 25yearsmlc-

After all this time, I'm trying to be both realistic and pragmatic about the possibilities of reconciliation. I don't know what my W wants, and I don't think she does either. She has apparently broken it off with OM. It was an impossible fantasy situation, so it's not surprising it died a slow death. I guess I'm now entering a new phase of this whole process.

I totally hear you about forgiveness. If I do manage to save my M, I will be very determined to make it the M we never had, and since our previous M was absolutely laden with resentment, I will not allow resentment to contaminate our new M. I know that means I'll have to forgive, and not just say it, but really forgive. Not an easy task I know. Seeing the happiness on my kids' faces will give me plenty of motivation.

I am also forcing myself to see how selfish my W is still acting, and no matter how much I want my family back together, I will need to see that change. The rest of my life is at stake here. I deserve a lot better than what she has offered me so far.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/24/09 10:12 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
After all this time, I'm trying to be both realistic and pragmatic about the possibilities of reconciliation. I don't know what my W wants, and I don't think she does either. She has apparently broken it off with OM. It was an impossible fantasy situation, so it's not surprising it died a slow death. I guess I'm now entering a new phase of this whole process.


reality? the toughts and the fantasies linger on a long long time even after things have supposedily broken off. and if either one has an SUV hopefully they dont run into eachother at the mall ...
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/24/09 10:28 PM
Hi SMQ-

I am worried about the thoughts and fantasies lingering. Given that they are literally about as far apart as two people on Earth can be, I'm not too worried about accidental contact!

The distance is a double edged sword though. It may have doomed the A, but I'm concerned the distance between them will perpetuate an endless "if only" fantasy in my W's mind, making it impossible for her to let it go. This is what I fear the most, and why I give serious thought to just moving on.
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/25/09 06:45 AM
Hi Future, I think that those are realistic concerns. And I agree with your previous post, you deserve more than she has given you.

Remeber, you cant read her mind, you cant know exactly what shes thinking until you are actually in that situation.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 11/27/09 02:23 AM
Future,

You are not a mind reader. And you don't have to be. Take what your wife says at face value. I KNOW we're supposed to only believe half what they DO and none of what they say but when it comes to a reconciliation, IF it does, then listen to her words and take them at face value until if and when her actions don't match. But if she says he's out of the picture and there's no evidence to the contrary, part of the whole forgiveness thing will be to accept that and let it go. You know this.

IF you get to the point of trying, may I recommend you attend Retrovaille? It's a marriage "retreat" workshop and it's for couples in trouble. You do NOT have to be Catholic or even Christian though I'd think an atheist would not find it as helpful. Also it is free if you cannot afford it. We attended this recently so I'm positive and yet I had gotten some bad information so fwiw, that's the deal. Anyhow, we got a lot out of it. It'll give you the tools you need to help you forgive. Without forgiveness, your m is doomed. All of ours are... But your comments about your motivation are wonderful and if there's a chance for it, and for your kids sake I hope there is, be open. And be very mindful of the cynics here and elsewhere, who want to punish and "teach a lesson" to a WAS...when you hear those words remember that they are not aimed at the restoration of a healthy M, but at retribution. No one in particular but heck, you might hear yourself saying it inside, and beware of those moments. And in your Real life there will be those folks around. And I'm also not saying "try saving the M at all costs" either.

We all have to dig deep and do the soul searching to find where our boundaries are. We have to cast our pride and ego aside, and yet set and enforce healthy boundaries for ourself to protect our hearts and children's and our futures, as much as possible. No one can or should tell us what to do. Only you know, so pray for guidance AND strength and do what His will is as best you can.

Good luck,
j-
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 12:50 PM
Hey Future, how are you doing? How did T-day go?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 06:44 PM
Hi Gnosis, thanks for asking.

The night before Thanksgiving I had to pick up the kids from my W. My oldest daughter was clinging to my W and sobbing. My W tried to console her, to no avail, she just didn't want to leave her mommy. Eventually my W gave up and just put her in the car crying, and went into her house. Seeing my daughter so sad started to make me angry, and watching my W walk away from her pushed me over the edge. I got out of the car and knocked on the door. When my W came to the door I said "I remember a time when if one of our kids were crying, we would do anything to make it stop." She immediately got defensive and said "Don't you lay that guilt trip on me! If you're angry, just say so." I said "I am angry." She said "What do you want me to do? This is normal." I just looked at her with a blank face and didn't say anything. She said again "What do you want me to do?" and again I said nothing. I eventually said "See you tomorrow" and I walked away. I know I probably screwed up showing her that much emotion, but I'm human. The strange thing is, I later heard from my MIL that my W talked to her about it right after, and my MIL said my W told her she said to me "I'm never coming back to you, so you better get used to seeing that." She never said that to me. Is she delusional now? She's just making stuff up. When I told my MIL she didn't say that to me, my MIL shook her head and said "You should ask her if she's having a nervous breakdown."

The next day was Thanksgiving. The kids and I spent a lazy morning eating, playing, and watching the parade. I did talk to my W on the phone, I was friendly, I said I wasn't angry and I wanted us to have a good Thanksgiving. She was very friendly as well, and asked my opinion about a new computer she was thinking of getting. We got ready to go to my MIL's house. I had bought some new clothes, and I made sure I was looking my absolute best. From the marathon training, I'm in very good shape. I packed fun things for us to do during the day, which is big 180 for me, as I never would have done that in the past.

The day at my MIL's house was relaxing and mellow. My W arrived and was acting kind of b*tchy at first. She brought our (now her) little dog, who I was happy to see. I told her it was a nice surprise for me to see the dog and she snapped back "She wouldn't be here if mom didn't ask me to bring her." I didn't let her foul mood phase me at all. I offered her champagne, which she declined at first, then accepted a short while later. I am good at getting her in a better mood, and this day was no exception. Soon she was chatting and friendly. We played games with the kids and generally had a nice day. At one point she asked me "So H, are there any movies you want to see?" Now, I don't know if this is some bait to get me to ask her out, but I didn't bite. I rattled off a couple that sound good to me, and I asked her what she thought looked good. She told me, and then I let it drop.

I started wrestling with the kids and had my W laughing out loud as I let them beat me. I took the kids outside to play for a while before dinner. I didn't ask my W if she wanted to join us, and she showed no interest. She just sat there on the sofa looking annoyed. What is her problem? Why do I even want this woman?

We had a nice meal, my W complimented me on the dish I made, and I teased her and said her pie was merely "edible". My son said "This is the best day ever!" which made me kind of sad. The kids love it so much when we're all together.

We hung out for a while longer after dinner and my W eventually said she had to go. She was taking the kids to her brother's place for the long weekend and she needed to get everything packed. She said goodbye to the kids, I was sitting on the floor, and as she walked by me she put her hand on my shoulder and said "Happy Thanksgiving H." I said "You too W."

So Thanksgiving went ok I guess, but the big news is what I did this morning. I sent my W the following e-mail:


W-

I've decided to exit this limbo. Life is too short to waste on this nonsense. Your behavior over the past year and a half has been incredibly disrespectful to me and our marriage. I gave you an opportunity to save our marriage and family, and your response was nowhere near what I needed to hear. I've decided I'm done and moving on. I consider our marriage to be over, and I want to finalize the legal side of things so I can fully move on. I know you said you didn't want to meet until January, but I'm not willing to wait that long. Please contact the mediator and set up an appointment or let me know what time works for you and I'll set it up. Next Wednesday afternoon works for me. I have some questions for the mediator I want to ask with both of us present. Like I said, I'll find the money to pay for it and you can pay me back for your half next year.

H


It got an immediate response. She tried to call three times in five minutes. I answered none of them, but on the third she left a searing voice message. She said something like:


If you want to know why I'm divorcing you, just look at your behavior over the past few weeks. I've been open and flexible, helping with the kids, and this is what you pull?! What has got up your as* that you needed to send that message?! I'm not going to the mediator. The only way you'll get me there is if you pay! I'm not paying for half!"


She also replied to my e-mail saying that she is going to attend our daughter's parent teacher conference alone, and that if I go, she'll leave.

I have to admit, I'm a combination of thrilled and anxious right now. You folks said I'd get a reaction. Wow! What's weird is that my only behavior over the past few weeks is that I've been distant, and not even totally so. I've been friendly, and chatted with her, and discussed the kids as needed. We had a nice Thanksgiving, and I brought the kids to her Mom's like she wanted. What the hell is she referring to about my behavior over the past few weeks?

What's truly funny is what she said about not going to mediation unless I paid. I said the exact same thing to her six months ago. I like how she threw out the "I'm divorcing you" comment, trying to get the power back, then refusing to go to mediation so we can get it done!

I can't believe I'm actually smiling as I type this. The question is, what now?
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 07:29 PM
I was LMAO reading this Future. Way to go! It's amazing the feeling you get when you start standing up for yourself isn't it?

Quote:
The question is, what now?

Ignore the spew and keep pushing for mediation ASAP. It's time for you to be a 'lawyer' and use her own words against her. e.g. Question: What has got up your as* that you needed to send that message?!
Answer: I have my reasons. Why are you being so stubborn and controlling?

Quote:
She also replied to my e-mail saying that she is going to attend our daughter's parent teacher conference alone, and that if I go, she'll leave.

Answer: I'm going and you cannot stop me. D is important to me and I refuse to allow you to cut me out of her life. If you choose to leave, that is your prerogative.

Remember... "Be the WAS"
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 07:40 PM
Definitely go to the P/T meeting. If she wants to be childish and walk out, then that's her problem.

I just wonder why you are so bent on doing everything now, and not wait for Jan? Did you not send out a similar email a week or so ago? Got a similar reaction. Don't get addicted to sending emails, hoping for wild reactions --- it may end up biting you in the @ss. Your W is projecting her actions onto you, I think. She sees you as the inflexible, reactionary person, and her as the calm, giving person. Of course, she's going to say she won't pay for it. You played right into that, IMHO.

Quote:
This is normal.
In her mind it is. Maybe she is having a nervous breakdown, but on the other hand, it is normal for MLCers to invent stuff, rewrite history, etc.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 07:55 PM
Quote:

I was LMAO reading this Future. Way to go! It's amazing the feeling you get when you start standing up for yourself isn't it?


Yes, it is.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 08:10 PM
Quote:

Definitely go to the P/T meeting. If she wants to be childish and walk out, then that's her problem.


I will definitely go, and she won't walk out. I know her well enough to know that.

Quote:

I just wonder why you are so bent on doing everything now, and not wait for Jan? Did you not send out a similar email a week or so ago? Got a similar reaction.


I sent the e-mail because I needed to turn this situation around, and in order to re-establish respect, I need to do it on MY terms. January is HER terms. If I bow to that, it just perpetuates in her mind her image of me as her puppet she can control, which has been exactly right, until now that is. She deflected the last e-mail by telling me what I wanted to hear just so she could see the kids on Thanksgiving, then acting just as childish as ever. The truth is, I didn't send it just to get a reaction. It's how I feel. I'm through with her crap behavior, and blaming me for the consequences of her actions. She has been helpful and nice about the kids, no doubt about that, but that doesn't change what she's done, and how she's treated me. She's been using her niceness about the kids as a shield to protect her from consequences, and I can't allow that any more.

Quote:

Don't get addicted to sending emails, hoping for wild reactions --- it may end up biting you in the @ss.


I won't. That's it. I need to stick to my guns now.

Quote:

Your W is projecting her actions onto you, I think. She sees you as the inflexible, reactionary person, and her as the calm, giving person. Of course, she's going to say she won't pay for it. You played right into that, IMHO.


I knew she'd say she wouldn't pay for it. I don't care about that. I needed to put her way back on her heels. She is openly refusing to take the steps necessary to divorce me, as some sort of protest over the reasons why she wants to divorce me. Incredible!
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 08:15 PM
Originally Posted By: ME
but anyhow, i quess my question is is this your LRT or your final statement?


Originally Posted By: FUTURE
This is a LRT. If I was truly DONE, there would be no point to send anything. I would just get the legal stuff going, get it over with, and live my life, along the lines of what BeingMe is saying. The letter itself shows that the R is important to me, but it's a declaration that I've finally thrown in the towel.


OK, I got to ask. Did sending the letter elicit the response you were after?


Originally Posted By: FUTURE
I am wavering around a bit. I'm grateful to have this venue to safely express it so I can make the right move here. My W has an uncanny knack for portraying herself very kindly so as to disarm me. As I said before, she's a MC, that is a natural skill she uses with her clients all the time.


I dont think this was ever asked, how much experience does she have as a marriage counselor? do you think she on this site?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 08:36 PM
Quote:

OK, I got to ask. Did sending the letter elicit the response you were after?


Yes. It got her openly stating she doesn't want to go to mediation, i.e. she doesn't want to take the actions necessary to end our marriage. AND, it is making her realize she is no longer in control.

Quote:

I dont think this was ever asked, how much experience does she have as a marriage counselor? do you think she on this site?


She is a very experienced MC, but she and her colleagues have no respect for MWD. She's (obviously) from the school of "do what's right for you rather than the marriage".

I have worried quite a bit about whether she knows about this site, but I've seen no evidence of it so far. I've been hesitant to include specific details, but as the months have gone by, more and more has been revealed. Why do you ask? Are you her? LOL!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 08:47 PM
Here's what I have as a response to her:


D is my daughter and I will be attending. I think it would be best if we keep the needs of our kids above the issues between you and me. If you aren't going to be there at all, let me know and I'll bring D to you after I bring S and (other) D to school.

As for mediation, I'll pay the mediator for the session and we can discuss with her how we'll share the cost for the rest. It's my turn to pay for a session anyway.

I know this is hard. Let's just get through it ok?

H


I haven't sent it yet. Comments?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 08:48 PM
Puppy where are you?????
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 08:48 PM
Sorry F,
Didn't have time for this before, so here's my "Blow-by-blow commentary":

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Seeing my daughter so sad started to make me angry, and watching my W walk away from her pushed me over the edge.

I'm sorry man. I don't have kids but can empathize on how tough it is to live through this.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I know I probably screwed up showing her that much emotion, but I'm human.

You're human. It was a heart-wrenching situation. No one's going to 2x4 you for that.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
my MIL shook her head and said "You should ask her if she's having a nervous breakdown."

Next time this is mentioned your response should be, "Sorry MIL, I've washed my hands of her. She's your daughter and responsibilty now."

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
My W arrived and was acting kind of b*tchy at first. <snip> I didn't let her foul mood phase me at all.

Good job.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I started wrestling with the kids and had my W laughing out loud as I let them beat me.

Also good. Let her see what she is throwing away. All this counts in your favor.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I didn't ask my W if she wanted to join us, and she showed no interest. She just sat there on the sofa looking annoyed.

She was annoyed that she wasn't invited. Not your fault. She had free choice and could have joined whenever she wanted.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
as she walked by me she put her hand on my shoulder and said "Happy Thanksgiving H." I said "You too W."

I know that meant a lot to you. Enjoy it for what it was... a fleeting moment of the ice-queen melting.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
It got an immediate response. She tried to call three times in five minutes. I answered none of them, but on the third she left a searing voice message.

Remember when you were on the receiving end of this? wink "Be the WAS"

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
What's weird is that my only behavior over the past few weeks is that I've been distant, and not even totally so.

And it's put a burr in her saddle. See? You create a crisis and she starts focusing on you. Doesn't matter that the focus is anger... the fact that she's thinking of you is what's important.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
We had a nice Thanksgiving, and I brought the kids to her Mom's like she wanted.

You gave her a bit of carrot... then a bit of stick with the email. Good job. Play the game... hot/cold. Create the drama. Women love it! (Oops, sorry to the ladies reading this...)

Now about the mediation...

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I sent the e-mail because I needed to turn this situation around, and in order to re-establish respect, I need to do it on MY terms. January is HER terms.

Yup, she's not going to budge on that, but it's OK. You're going to use this to your advantage. Come January you're going to change tack and avoid going because you're going to be TOO BUSY. The shoe's on the other foot now and we're going to soccer practice. Got it?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 08:56 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Here's what I have as a response to her:


D is my daughter and I will be attending. I think it would be best if we keep the needs of our kids above the issues between you and me. If you aren't going to be there at all, let me know and I'll bring D to you after I bring S and (other) D to school.

As for mediation, I'll pay the mediator for the session and we can discuss with her how we'll share the cost for the rest. It's my turn to pay for a session anyway.

I know this is hard. Let's just get through it ok?

H


I haven't sent it yet. Comments?


I think that's fine, altho I wouldn't end it with a question. I'd end it with "Let's just get thru this, for D's sake."

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 09:02 PM
What I find interesting is that nothing I said in my e-mail was particularly inflammatory. I tried to make it as matter of fact as I could. That she reacted so emotionally tells me she's still very emotionally invested in our marriage. Otherwise, she would have just responded like "I was hoping to avoid this over the holidays, but I guess we can just do it now. Let me know when the appointment is and we'll get this done."
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 09:03 PM
Quote:

I think that's fine, altho I wouldn't end it with a question. I'd end it with "Let's just get thru this, for D's sake."


I was referring to getting through the mediation, but perhaps I should say something similar regarding the parent teach conference as well.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 09:05 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
What I find interesting is that nothing I said in my e-mail was particularly inflammatory. I tried to make it as matter of fact as I could. That she reacted so emotionally tells me she's still very emotionally invested in our marriage.


You could have said "all whites are white"; she would have disagreed with you and likely lashed back.

Right now, you are showing your very first signs of not going along with her little Master Plan. Methinks she's not going to like that too much. smirk

Gotta scoot for my flag football team's (S13) first practice and parents meeting. I'll try to check back in on you later tonite.

Puppy
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 09:59 PM
Quote:
She is a very experienced MC, but she and her colleagues have no respect for MWD. She's (obviously) from the school of "do what's right for you rather than the marriage".

Yeah, the "what makes ME happy" brigade. And scr*w everyone else!

Quote:
You gave her a bit of carrot... then a bit of stick with the email. Good job. Play the game... hot/cold. Create the drama. Women love it! (Oops, sorry to the ladies reading this...)

BTW, (just to be clear) as far as I know, we women do not like extreme drama. It may seem like that to some men, but quite honestly, most of my female friends and I like serenity, clarity and peace --- we do not like these rollercoaster rides anymore than the men here do. We do express our emotions easier, but that's just one of the ways many women communicate our feelings. And, I know (Gnosis) was generalizing. But, I am tired of women always being portrayed as naggers, drama queens, etc. My first H was the biggest nagger ever which is why he is my EX. I think MLCers like the drama, however, men and women. No offence taken, and nuff said. Just saying. crazy

Anyway, I am starting to see what you are trying to do here, Future. Keep her guessing and off balance and retrieving your personal boundaries and power. So far, so good.

As for the note --- definitely point out that the children should not be affected negatively. That the mediation and D is between the two of you, and that the children are not to be used as pawns. Good point to make.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/01/09 10:10 PM
Quote:

BTW, as far as I know, we women do not like extreme drama. It may seem like that to some men, but quite honestly, most of my female friends like serenity and peace --- we do not like these rollercoaster rides anymore than the men here do. And, I know (Gnosis?) was generalizing. I think MLCers like the drama, however.


I'm about as far from an expert on women as you can find. I did just see the movie "He's Just Not That Into You" though! LOL! I don't think women "like" the drama, but it does keep them interested.

Quote:

Anyway, I am starting to see what you are trying to do here, Future. Keep her guessing and off balance and retrieving your personal boundaries and power. So far, so good.


Exactly. Retrieve my boundaries and power. She's owned them for YEARS, and it's high time I took them back. This isn't really a game any more. If we can somehow reconcile, it has to be within a context of mutual respect, and the way things were going, that would have never happened.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/02/09 02:57 PM
Well, I was wrong. I didn't think she'd be so childish, but when I arrived at the parent teacher conference, she took the kids and left. She looked like a wreck, like she got little sleep and had been crying. She didn't look at me, and barely said a word.

I don't understand. She left me, she cheated on me, she told me our marriage was over. Why is she so upset? I said I didn't consider anything that happened to be unforgivable, I offered my hand back to her, she refused to take it. Why is she so upset?

Either she has serious doubts about whether she actually wants a divorce, or she just wants to make sure it happens on her terms and her convenience, and doesn't like having the reins taken from her. I don't know which it is, but maybe this will help me find out.

I'm feeling pretty strong, but I do have occassional doubts and fears flashing into my mind. What if I am being a jerk? What if she just needed some more time? What if this is just driving her back into OM's arms? I can't let that stuff take root! I'm starting to realize just how well she had broken down my trust in my own gut feelings. I have to get that back.

Another tidbit I've not mentioned so far in all this is that I am the second husband to my W, and I'm now remembering our early courtship from a MUCH different viewpoint. My W was legally separated from her first H when I met her. I had no experience with anything like that, so I took what she told me as fact. Her first marriage was miserable and a failure, she left, and it was for the best. Her first H lived a couple hours away, so I never saw him. He was just a name I ocassionally heard mentioned, and I had no feelings about him whatsoever. I do know my W did not finalize their divorce until she and I were engaged, and I know when she met with him to sign the final papers, he still groveled to her and asked for her back. Again, I had no real feelings about it at the time, it was something outside of my life. I certainly look back on it with clarity now though. I will NOT let that be me.

My W likes me, enjoys my company, thinks I'm a good father, but she told me there is an emptiness inside her where I should be. I am 99% sure that place is where her respect for me belongs. Re-establishing and maintaing her respect for me is the only hope I have for reconciliation. The way we were going, even if she decided to come back, for the kids, for financial reasons, for my companionship, that respect would not have been there, and our M would be hollow. I believe this is our ONLY hope for true reconciliation.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/02/09 03:13 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


My W likes me, enjoys my company, thinks I'm a good father, but she told me there is an emptiness inside her where I should be. I am 99% sure that place is where her respect for me belongs. Re-establishing and maintaing her respect for me is the only hope I have for reconciliation. The way we were going, even if she decided to come back, for the kids, for financial reasons, for my companionship, that respect would not have been there, and our M would be hollow. I believe this is our ONLY hope for true reconciliation.


Then that pretty much answers your own question and concerns that you expressed in your 4th paragraph, no?? smirk

Puppy
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/02/09 07:46 PM
Your W is the common denominator in two failed/ing M's and one serious R! She perhaps has unresolved baggage that you and she don't see. I hope she is seeing a counselor to sort this out.

I am so sad for your kids that she walked out of the PT meeting. She is setting a bad example and in their heads, they may somehow think all this is their fault. Kids tend to do that.

What respect can she have lost for you, when she has had an A? Her own self-respect must be low. Here she is, doing the same thing she did before. How does she explain this to herself? She may or may not have been officially S'ed with her first M, but she was certainly not D'ed when she met you, so you were a partner with her in an A. It sounds like your W told you very little, so you were pretty much in the dark. Who knows what she said was even true?

I know you love her, and she is the mother of your children, and probably has some really great personality traits, but faithfulness, honour and honesty does not seem to be any of them. If you D her and she and OM get together, she will probably do the same thing to him. Who knows what she is telling him about you?

This little drama, walking out of the PT meeting, has turned the tables on you. She knows that this will make you pause and wonder. She sucked the power right out of you. Men often don't like seeing their loved ones upset, and having been crying, etc. or their children used as pawns. They go into protective mode.

Damn straight --- you should never beg anyone for anything, especially to stay with them. My H begged me, on the floor, grovelling, crying, to take him back when I was getting ready to D his @ss, and sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't have done so. It's not a pretty sight, and I think I took pity on him (even after all the pain he caused me) and gave him another 5 years chance to prove his trustworthiness. Not going to happen. He too is a great dad, I like him --- he is family no matter what, but even before the grovelling event, I had withdrawn my feelings and it was too late. Once I had decided to D, it was over for me. I think it is for him too, but he just doesn't want to lose his best friend, which we are.

Anyway, be careful of losing sight of who you are --- don't let her overshadow you and make you doubt yourself. Be firm. Don't take this cr@p of her crying --- never heard of it ever killing anyone. It's just that she lost control of the sitch, and she don't like it and it's upsetting her. This is emotional blackmail, IMHO.

Take care.
Posted By: soleil Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/02/09 07:52 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Well, I was wrong. I didn't think she'd be so childish, but when I arrived at the parent teacher conference, she took the kids and left. She looked like a wreck, like she got little sleep and had been crying. She didn't look at me, and barely said a word.


Not that it's a competition, but you "won" that round. You were calm and collected and she behaved in a very childish way. She probably is not sleeping much at night.
Just focus your energy on YOU and try to take it one day at a time. Easier said than done, I know!
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/02/09 08:20 PM
Quote:
This little drama, walking out of the PT meeting, has turned the tables on you. She knows that this will make you pause and wonder. She sucked the power right out of you.

I meant to say, "if you let her." You didn't think she would walk out.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/02/09 08:20 PM
Phenomenal post, BeingMe.

Seems like there's a LOT of groveling going on around here, all over the place.

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/02/09 08:35 PM
Quote:

Your W is the common denominator in two failed/ing M's and one serious R! She perhaps has unresolved baggage that you and she don't see. I hope she is seeing a counselor to sort this out.


This weighs on me too, although if you're referring to her A with OM, I'm not sure I'd call that a serious R! I think she is still seeing our MC ocassionally, but I don't know what effect it's having on her.

Quote:

I am so sad for your kids that she walked out of the PT meeting. She is setting a bad example and in their heads, they may somehow think all this is their fault. Kids tend to do that.


It wasn't a scene at all. The kids had no idea what was happening. We showed up and my W came out and just said "Come on kids, we're going." My son asked "Why did we even come here?" My W said nothing in response. I said "I guess it didn't take as long as I thought it would."

Quote:


What respect can she have lost for you, when she has had an A? Her own self-respect must be low. Here she is, doing the same thing she did before. How does she explain this to herself? She may or may not have been officially S'ed with her first M, but she was certainly not D'ed when she met you, so you were a partner with her in an A. It sounds like your W told you very little, so you were pretty much in the dark. Who knows what she said was even true?


That whole thing has been revised in my mind. I was OM, and I didn't even know it. She presented herself as totally single. I know she was in a R with another guy for a short while before me, then she even went out with a co-worker of mine a couple times before we started going out. Once she locked in on me, she pursued me very strongly. My friends used to tease her about how obvious she was in her pursuit of me, which she hated. She hardly ever mentioned her H, and just treated it so matter of factly that I didn't pay it much mind. I was still pretty young and naive, and liked her so much. It is interesting that her mother and brother have subsequently told me how poorly she treated her first H, and how she just dumped him when she got bored. Sounds familiar.

When I refer to her having no respect for me, I mean that she treated me like crap for many years, and I just took it, and didn't stand up for myself. I used to, but after our first son was born, she had me, and she knew it. When he was six months old she told me she couldn't live with me any more and she rented her own apartment. To say I was crushed is an understatement. She never really left, she only spent a couple nights in the apartment, but she proved to me that she was capable of leaving me and taking my child from me. From then on I would never really stand up for myself, and her respect for me just withered away.

Quote:

I know you love her, and she is the mother of your children, and probably has some really great personality traits, but faithfulness, honour and honesty does not seem to be any of them. If you D her and she and OM get together, she will probably do the same thing to him. Who knows what she is telling him about you?


This weighs on me heavily. I truly don't know if she's capable of being honest and faithful and committed. From some intel I got, I know she's lied continually and exaggerated about me. She had him feeling like he was her great savior, and she fed his ego at every turn. Her mother told me she thinks he ended their R, probably because she was putting so much pressure on him.

In her favor, I know of no time she lied to me prior to her A starting.

Quote:

This little drama, walking out of the PT meeting, has turned the tables on you. She knows that this will make you pause and wonder. She sucked the power right out of you. Men often don't like seeing their loved ones upset, and having been crying, etc. or their children used as pawns. They go into protective mode.


I was surprised how weak that effect was on me this time. She'd usually put on her little show and have me back right where she wanted, but this time I didn't cave.

Quote:

Anyway, be careful of losing sight of who you are --- don't let her overshadow you and make you doubt yourself. Be firm. Don't take this cr@p of her crying --- never heard of it ever killing anyone. It's just that she lost control of the sitch, and she don't like it and it's upsetting her. This is emotional blackmail, IMHO.


Thanks, I'm trying. Like I said before, I'm only now beginning to realize how well she had me trained to doubt myself when I'd stand up to her.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/02/09 10:46 PM
Reading this back, I'm realizing how out of sync it is with what I wrote in the first pages of this thread. This has been a process for me, and my thoughts about my marriage have ebbed and flowed over the months.

The self criticism I gave myself early in this thread was legitimate, as are the points I've made here. I did fail in my M, as did my W. She did try to make our M better, but either the way she did it, or how I responded led to where we are. I don't know if things would have ended differently had I not failed. I don't know if my W's failings would have been minimized had I not failed. I don't know if it was an inevitable clash of flaws that destroyed our M. That wonder is why I'm still here. I guess I still have hope that if we could deal with our crap and learn from this, then maybe we could have a good M.

However, the selfishness she's exhibiting has to go or there is no hope. She was acting so much better a couple months ago. I was starting to think maybe we could pull this off. What happened?
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/02/09 11:06 PM
This is what I read in your posts: you are a flip-flopper and she is a MC. Don't doubt for a second that she hasn't seen your type many a times. Realize, she is going to test you on everything? She has given advice on every trick in the book in her sessions and she has used them on you alot already. There are still more up her sleave in the days to come.

How much strength and confidence and unwillingness to back down do you have this time?

The way I see it, you used the threat of divorce as a strategy to reconcile. Thats a tough one. But all in all its still a bluff. right?

Why is she upset? You dumped her you asked for divorce. No one. Not even the cheaters like to get dumped. You are a jerk. You were suppose to bend over and submit to her wishes.

My motto: Never bend over and avoid kneeling at all costs.

Bah, whats the worse thing that could happen? she calls your bluff? she calls you for bail because she just got arrested for public indecency with two twenty year old guys in some parking lot in the back seat her car? another OM appears next week? any of that scare you?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/02/09 11:45 PM
Quote:

This is what I read in your posts: you are a flip-flopper and she is a MC. Don't doubt for a second that she hasn't seen your type many a times. Realize, she is going to test you on everything? She has given advice on every trick in the book in her sessions and she has used them on you alot already. There are still more up her sleave in the days to come.


I have flip flopped regarding the history my M as I reflect back on it. I haven't flip flopped about my desire to try to reconcile.

Yes, she is a master at testing, and I fail much of the time, because of my desire to reunite my family. I'm trying to do the counterintuitive thing, and it's hard.

Quote:

How much strength and confidence and unwillingness to back down do you have this time?


I guess we'll find out. What does back down mean? Not divorce her? If she shows signs of reaching out, do I ignore them? Do I talk with her? Do I calmly reiterate that I just want to get the separation agreement done? At what point do I open this back up to discussion?

Quote:

The way I see it, you used the threat of divorce as a strategy to reconcile. Thats a tough one. But all in all its still a bluff. right?


Not quite. A legal separation isn't a divorce, and truthfully, I have to get it done regardless, for my own security. I know the reality is that there is a good chance my M is over. We've been living apart for a year. She is/was involved with another man. I need a legal separation to protect me, regardless of whether we end in divorce. I'm using the fact that SHE sees it as a big step towards divorce though.

Is it a bluff? Good question. I really am about at the end of my rope here. It's been almost two years since our M started to crumble, a year and a half since her A started, and a year that we've been separated. How much longer can I wait? She is in crisis right now. I needed to strike while the iron was hot. If this doesn't work, my M is over. What else can I do?

Quote:

Why is she upset? You dumped her you asked for divorce. No one. Not even the cheaters like to get dumped. You are a jerk. You were suppose to bend over and submit to her wishes.

My motto: Never bend over and avoid kneeling at all costs.


That's the whole respect thing for me. I have bent over, and knelt, and it's time for me to get up, and not do it again. This was the only way I could see to do it.

Quote:

Bah, whats the worse thing that could happen? she calls your bluff? she calls you for bail because she just got arrested for public indecency with two twenty year old guys in some parking lot in the back seat her car? another OM appears next week? any of that scare you?


Scare me. A little, but I have no other options here. This is my hail mary pass. I've allowed such bad behavior from her, and she's known all along that she has me safely in her pocket if she needs me. I had to break that perception.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/03/09 04:40 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I have flip flopped regarding the history my M as I reflect back on it. I haven't flip flopped about my desire to try to reconcile.


not true. you sent the letter. read it from your wife's point of view. one interpretation is that it is a declaration. divorce, separation, whichever it dont matter, look back at what she said to you afterwards,

"If you want to date someone, that's up to you"

or can interpret it as he's pulls this crap all the time. he's not serious.

any way i look at it youre flip-flopping. the reason i am harping on this is i'd like to know youre plan from here on out.

she can dish it out but she can take it?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/03/09 07:35 PM
I meant I haven't flip flopped inside myself. From her point of view, am I flip flopping? She knows I didn't want her to leave. She knows I was heart broken over the loss of my family. I obviously wanted to try to save our M, but she could see me start to throw in the towel this summer. She was afraid she was losing me, so she'd reach out, and I'd soften, and she'd get reassurance that I was still in the game. She'd then go away again, I'd eventually get fed up, and I'd start to push for the separation again. That's been repeated a few times over the course of the year. Is that flip flopping? It's been in response to her. I want to save my M, but it takes two. I've reached the point where I don't trust her little overtures mean anything. Maybe I should have been here a long time ago, but I wasn't. So from her point of view, has she seen me flip flop? She can't see it's in response to her?

What is my plan from here on out? I need to see how she reacts. If she totally digs in and refuses to go to mediation, then eventually I'll have to sit her down and ask why. At that point, I'll be open to whatever she says.

If she makes a serious declaration that she doesn't want our M to end, then I'll soften, but at that point, I'll have terms, i.e. transparency, attending Retrouvaille, etc. I'll be in the power position.

If she goes along and attends mediation, and signs the separation agreement without serious protest, then I have my legal security, and she has shown me she really does want a D. The one year clock then starts ticking. This game gets played out again in one year when I push to finalize the D. If she goes along again, then my M is over.

SMQ, you seem aprehensive about what I've done. What do you think I should have done? We've been living apart for a year. She could keep us in limbo for another year, or two, or three, until she feels good enough and secure enough and confident enough to D me on her terms. Like I said, my only hope for true reconciliation is to do this on my terms. Do you not agree?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/03/09 08:15 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Is that flip flopping? It's been in response to her.


Isn't flip-flopping USUALLY in response to someone else?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/03/09 08:17 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


If she makes a serious declaration that she doesn't want our M to end, then I'll soften, but at that point, I'll have terms, i.e. transparency, attending Retrouvaille, etc. I'll be in the power position.


Perfect.

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/03/09 08:57 PM
The other part of my strategy I haven't mentioned is that I made sure to give my W some good doses of me at my best during the year. I've tried to show her the best of me nearly all the time. Caring, considerate, fun, charming, reliable, interesting, in shape, energetic, and good with the kids. I'm putting it all on the line here.
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/04/09 01:56 AM
Quote:
I've tried to show her the best of me nearly all the time. Caring, considerate, fun, charming, reliable, interesting, in shape, energetic, and good with the kids. I'm putting it all on the line here.
All of these are strong points, but what about firm, resolute, bold, courageous, independent (don't need her), unwavering, steadfast (what you get today, is what you get tomorrow, no matter how W is behaving), consistent?

I think you will have to resolutely carry this mediation and S through no matter what she does, if you ever want her to take you seriously. Even if she, again, softens, and tells you why (and who knows why she doesn't want to go into mediation now, when she is the one wanting the D --- I can only think that she expects to walk away, while you are grovelling and pleading, and you're not doing that enough now OR maybe walking away from this M isn't quite the same as the last, seeing that there are children involved and she's still trying to justify that in her mind), it could be a bunch of bs to get you complacent again. After all, this is not a woman who has never lied. It would be tough now, but my opinion is to go through with the S, no matter what. It doesn't mean there will be a D, but it does mean that you say what you mean, and mean what you say and she'll know that you are not so easily now, a man to be manipulated. But, during the year of S, if she wants to go to counselling or Retrouville, then good enough.

Don't you think this ebb and flow has gone on long enough?

Just some thoughts.
Posted By: antlers Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/04/09 02:58 AM
Strong, powerful, secure, confident, and compassionate.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/04/09 03:26 AM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
SMQ, you seem aprehensive about what I've done. What do you think I should have done? We've been living apart for a year. She could keep us in limbo for another year, or two, or three, until she feels good enough and secure enough and confident enough to D me on her terms. Like I said, my only hope for true reconciliation is to do this on my terms. Do you not agree?


I would like to see you regain the power in the dynamic of your relationship.

Your wife has had it for too long and she has played you seriously for the past few years. Seems to me she knows some tricks to keep you this way. Shes good at it.

And No, I would'nt have sent the letter and I would not have said I would pay for all of it. That has placed all of the initiative on your shoulders. Now you have to follow through or you WILL be a flip-flopper and you will never regain the power because you will have a history of making grand finalizations then never following through. You can stall this though lawyers, fees, schedule conflicts, but still you have no other choice now but to go through with it.

Good for you. It is how you wanted to react and you took that initiative. That takes guts.

question still remains

Quote:
she can dish it out but she can take it?


Screw showing her the best of you. What if you mimic'd her behavior how do you think she would react to you being single?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/04/09 03:39 AM
Quote:

All of these are strong points, but what about firm, resolute, bold, courageous, independent (don't need her), unwavering, steadfast (what you get today, is what you get tomorrow, no matter how W is behaving), consistent?


Definitely not as great, but I have shown some strength. I have absolutely refused to discuss her A, which has driven her crazy. I barely acknowledge it at all, and then only in very vague terms. I have never spoken OM's name to her. I have insisted I only pay her the money I feel is fair for child support, and not bowed to her pressure. I've tackled a marathon. I've done very well taking care of myself and our kids on my own. As for unwavering, not so great, as we've discussed. She might disagree, but I think I've been very steadfast in my general demeanor, except for a few times this year when the whole thing just got to me.

This is how she has me doubting myself so much. I think I've been incredibly solid this year, under the circumstances. All my friends and co-workers agree, yet she hurls out some barbed words, and I'm going down the road of self doubt.

Quote:

I think you will have to resolutely carry this mediation and S through no matter what she does, if you ever want her to take you seriously. Even if she, again, softens, and tells you why (and who knows why she doesn't want to go into mediation now, when she is the one wanting the D --- I can only think that she expects to walk away, while you are grovelling and pleading, and you're not doing that enough now OR maybe walking away from this M isn't quite the same as the last, seeing that there are children involved and she's still trying to justify that in her mind), it could be a bunch of bs to get you complacent again. After all, this is not a woman who has never lied. It would be tough now, but my opinion is to go through with the S, no matter what. It doesn't mean there will be a D, but it does mean that you say what you mean, and mean what you say and she'll know that you are not so easily now, a man to be manipulated. But, during the year of S, if she wants to go to counselling or Retrouville, then good enough.


BeingMe, I agree with you, and I admit, I'm scared. I don't want my M to end, and now I'm in a situation where I have to push hard to move it in that direction. I just don't think I have any other choice. My only hope to turn this around is to Two key events have pushed me to this place. When Gnosis asked me direct question of whether I'm happy with what my W is giving me, and a good friend of mine said to me "You know, I think your W is going to lose the best thing that ever happened to her, but I don't think you are." My belief in myself and my self worth is coming back, and I know I deserve better than what she's giving me. I've been living on these little scraps she's been doling out this year, and I can't do it anymore. I've done some casual dating, and I know other women would be interested in me.

Quote:

Don't you think this ebb and flow has gone on long enough?


Yes, I do.

Thanks for your support.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/04/09 03:42 AM
Well, my W is calling me on my actions. I set up a mediation appointment for a couple weeks from now, and she said she'd attend, but only if I pay, and only if I am ready to decide how we will handle our marital debt.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/04/09 04:05 AM
Quote:
Well, my W is calling me on my actions. I set up a mediation appointment for a couple weeks from now, and she said she'd attend, but only if I pay, and only if I am ready to decide how we will handle our marital debt.

Scr3w her! You're paying so you control the agenda.

I may be mistaken, but weren't the terms of your deal for next Wed? Call her out on the additional crap. "W, I don't know what's going on in that mind of yours... The only circumstances where I was willing to pay for this was to get this resolved within the next week. You're stalling and playing games with me."

REWORD the above and find the legal loophole wink Remember... keep her focused on you. Create crisis.

On the other hand, if I got it wrong then you need to make a decision: Money comes and goes. Your self-respect is worth more than money and so is your word.

I wish I could offer more Future. SMQ and BM are giving you enough 2x4's and solid advice.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/04/09 04:43 AM
Quote:

I would like to see you regain the power in the dynamic of your relationship.

Your wife has had it for too long and she has played you seriously for the past few years. Seems to me she knows some tricks to keep you this way. Shes good at it.


She is good at it, and yes, I do have to regain the power.

Quote:

And No, I would'nt have sent the letter and I would not have said I would pay for all of it. That has placed all of the initiative on your shoulders. Now you have to follow through or you WILL be a flip-flopper and you will never regain the power because you will have a history of making grand finalizations then never following through. You can stall this though lawyers, fees, schedule conflicts, but still you have no other choice now but to go through with it.


What other choice did I have? She would have just kept us in limbo forever if she felt like it. I had to do something to get my b*lls back, and if divorcing her is the only way I can do it, then that's the way it has to be. This has been all her doing so far, and if I let her dictate how our M ends, her rule over me is complete.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/04/09 04:49 AM
Quote:
I had to do something to get my b*lls back, and if divorcing her is the only way I can do it, then that's the way it has to be.

Future, I agree with you needing to reclaim your raisins. Especially with the latest revelations of her past i.e. when you met and how you were 'unwittingly' the OM.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/05/09 10:47 PM
Quote:

I may be mistaken, but weren't the terms of your deal for next Wed? Call her out on the additional crap. "W, I don't know what's going on in that mind of yours... The only circumstances where I was willing to pay for this was to get this resolved within the next week. You're stalling and playing games with me."


The next available appointment was in two weeks. I'm trying to figure out how to respond to her. Here's what I have, to throw it back at her:


W-

Are you are saying you won't go unless your concerns get priority?

H
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/05/09 10:52 PM
Besides how to handle the debt (which is a good idea) what are her other concerns?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/07/09 04:37 PM
She only mentioned the debt, but she didn't say we should discuss how to handle the debt, she said she will only go if I am ready to say whether her name stays attached to the debt. Certainly needs to be dealt with, but again, it's all about her, her, her. Putting a stipulation on whether or not she will attend is just a little game to see if she can get control of me and the situation. The funny thing is, we already decided how we were going to handle the debt.

Here's how I replied:


W-

I'm not interested in playing games. Are you coming or aren't you? I don't want to waste my time or the mediator's time.

H
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/07/09 05:05 PM
Quote:

Now you have to follow through or you WILL be a flip-flopper and you will never regain the power because you will have a history of making grand finalizations then never following through. You can stall this though lawyers, fees, schedule conflicts, but still you have no other choice now but to go through with it.


I will follow through with it. Like I said, at this point, I need legal security anyway. I can't stay legally bonded to someone who isn't considering my interests, financial or otherwise.

Quote:

Good for you. It is how you wanted to react and you took that initiative. That takes guts.


Thanks. It does feel good to take control of my life, but like I told BeingMe, I am scared to be the one moving my M toward D.

Quote:

question still remains


Quote:

she can dish it out but she can take it?


Screw showing her the best of you. What if you mimic'd her behavior how do you think she would react to you being single?


She has watched me act single all year, and she knows I've been going out on dates. Didn't seem to bother her, but that was when she was all ga-ga over OM. I've talked with her mother at length about it, and she agrees, my W will not feel the full impact of losing me until she sees me with someone else, can tell I'm gone emotionally from her, and especially when she sees another woman interacting with her kids.

I think my W has such a deep seeded guilt about what she's done that she knows she has no right to act jealous about me being with someone else. Every once in a while that guilt leaks out and I see it.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/07/09 08:57 PM
My W replied by calling me. I answered, and she very calmly said she's not playing a game, and that she doesn't want to waste her time either. She described the information she wants regarding our debt, and asked me if I would have it for the meeting. I was calm in return, and said I would look into it.

So she's changed from her angry spewing last week to calm, cool, and collected this week. Why? I have no idea.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/07/09 08:59 PM
RESPECT, is my take.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/07/09 09:58 PM
She offered the stick. Now she is offering the carrot. A curve ball. Keep with calm, cool and collect. Cause you know a fastball is coming next.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 12:06 AM
Quote:

RESPECT, is my take.


I don't know. She has a way of sounding very condescending, like "I'm being calm because you're such a jerk." Respect was not what I felt like I was getting. She is a master at trying to turn the tables. She will cling to the attitude that I'm the bad guy, expecting me to eventually break and come back to her with my tail between my legs. It was a common tale in our marriage.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 01:06 AM
You know she's good at playing the psychological warfare games. Don't let her win. She's calling your bet. Meet her at the table to show you're not scared of her. Don't back down, play hardball. Take as much as you can. Don't be fair. It's time to be vicious.

She'll walk away from the mediation... but that's cool... that's what you want and what you're buying: time and respect. It's a gamble, and I'm sure it's worth it.

Just my opinion.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 04:29 PM
I am pathetic. It's only been a week, and I'm starting to think I should reach back to her. I am embarassed to admit it here, but I'd rather do it here than do something stupid. Here are the thoughts I've been having this morning. Please give me 2x4's as necessary.

I finally laid out a clear boundary, that I would move on if she remained in her A with OM. She stalled for a couple months, forcing me to nail her down before Thanksgiving, but then she did tell me her A was over, so she obviously didn't want me to move on. I was hurt that she said it so begrudgingly, and that she still took some shots at our M in the process. This year has been so hard, I was so emotionally exhausted that I had nothing left to handle her ambivalent attitude over the whole thing. Inside I knew I should give her a couple months to start to heal from it before I made another move, I even told one of my friends that's what I was going to do, but after she acted so bitchy and distant on Thanksgiving and afterwards, I snapped. I wanted to take control of my life, so I sent her the e-mail. I wanted HER to be in crisis for a change. Why couldn't I just see my plan (waiting a couple months) as being in control of my life?

Now what I'm thinking is that I should talk to her face to face, tell her that sending her the e-mail was not an appropriate way to convey to her how I was feeling, that it was disrespectful and she deserved better. However, tell her that what I said in the e-mail is how I feel, that I can't be in limbo any more. I am usually able to disarm her with a kind attitude. She knows she hurt me terribly, and she is hurting over all this too, so I think a kind compassionate attitude will go a long way.

Assuming I can disarm her, then I'll ask her straight out "Do you want a divorce?" When she says "I don't know" which she almost certainly will, I'll strongly say "That is not an acceptable answer. Do you want a divorce?" If she says yes, then say "Then let's just get this done so we can both move on." If she says no, then say "So what are you going to do about it?" If she says "I don't know" I again say "Not an acceptable answer. What are you going to do about it?" Then wait and see what she says.

Notice I don't ever change my position in the above, I just disarm the negative emotions and request more information from her. Of course she will infer from my whole demeanor that the door isn't quite as shut as my e-mail said it was, but I think she'll understand that I'm at the end of my rope.

OR

I can just continue along the path I'm on, stay extremely distant, pursue the separation, and see if she reaches back to me.

Ok, whack away!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 04:36 PM
Something else I haven't mentioned, which is a big part of the reason I sent the e-mail. I was resentful of the fact that she didn't want to deal with the emotional burden of our separation during the holidays. Again, it's all her, her, her. I found out about her A two weeks before Christmas last year. Worst day of my life, and then I had to get through the holidays in incredible emotional pain while putting on a happy face for my kids. When I thought about that I didn't want her to have the option of avoiding pain over this Christmas. What I did had a tinge of revenge to it, which is not acceptable.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 04:43 PM
The thing is there is always going to be *something* that makes her not want to deal with this. Now it is the holidays, next month it will be work, then maybe the kid's b-days or whatever the next thing is.

Unlike most of us you are dealing with a WAS that knows more "tricks" as her profession is one that has heard it all as far as R's go. While I don't know your W she comes across (based on the info you have shared) as terribly manipulative. I am sorry if that sounds unkind towards your W but I am simply throwing out my observation based on the information posted.

I know I come across as a hard ass without a kind bone in my body but I do understand. It took me a long time to get to this point. I became ill, hospitalized and had an actual nervous breakdown before I decided enough was enough. I will always champion healing and rebuilding R's but not at the expense of my health. Sometimes you just have to say it has to be "this" or "that" and if its "this" then lets get to work. If its "that" then lets proceed as I MATTER and I intend to build the best life for me as I enter MY next phase.

One year is ample time to give your W IMO.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 05:13 PM
You flop now she wins because she'll know she has you by the b@lls. It aint over until fat lady justice farts when the judge bangs the gavel.

Stick to your guns. It may be just what she needs to shake her head out her a$$. She's left you hanging and kept stringing you on for an entire year while she was having fun. Keep shaking the tree and creating crisis until she falls out of it and lands back on terra firma.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 05:31 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


Ok, whack away!


Consider yourself WHACKED.

I guess it all depends on whether you want to try to save your marriage or now. But it's up to you. Doing things the way you're describing have NOT worked for you, and I have never SEEN them work (and I have studied literally THOUSANDS of these things). But again, it's your call.

Puppy
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 07:16 PM
Quote:
I can just continue along the path I'm on, stay extremely distant, pursue the separation, and see if she reaches back to me.

Do this! It seems as if she is the one whose emotions chop and change each time you communicate. No matter whether there was a tinge of revenge --- it's done now, so DO NOT back off.

Whack, whack, whack --- for even thinking of being passive again. If she wanted to get back with you, she would've let you know the A was over before having you request it. That would've been a huge indication that she wanted to get back together. But, now she feels she was 'forced'. It's gonna take awhile before she thinks of you romantically again, I think.

Stick to your plan, or just get yourself castrated and hand the result in a pretty box, as a parting gift to your W for Christmas.

Sorry, that's how I see it, and it makes me mad when you are so obviously manipulated, but maybe you're too close to the sitch and don't see it for what it is.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 07:21 PM
Originally Posted By: BeingMe
Stick to your plan, or just get yourself castrated and hand the result in a pretty box, as a parting gift to your W for Christmas.

Amen sister BM.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 08:00 PM
That's why I love this board.

Thanks for the whacks. I guess I just need to hear them. I wasn't even going to post out of sheer embarassment, and in the past I would have just acted, then came here and reported what happened, so at least I've progressed that far.

I am willing to stick to my guns and pursue the separation, but I'm not sure if I buy into Gnosis's philosophy of being vicious. I can strongly state my case and stick to my guns, but I don't see how being vicious does anything other than create animosity and destroy our R further. Does being vicious generate respect?

The last year has shown me that being reasonable and emotionally available doesn't work, as you say Puppy. Even I get it eventually! This would be so much easier if it weren't for our three little kids. My heart bleeds for them.

A very close friend of mine is a WAW (maybe too close), so I take her advice very seriously. She is my weapon against my W's manipulation. Last night she said my sending that e-mail was a bit cowardly, instead of confronting my W face to face. That hurts. But, she says she understands why, given the way my W has been acting, and she says I should push for the separation, then give my W the next year to make a move back toward me. She has been a great friend to have through all this. She is a classic WAW, and her H has been clearly demonstrating exactly what NOT to do, i.e. beg, plead, lash out, be generally needy and unstable. I see with my own eyes how it makes her long to be away from him. The more needy he is, the more repulsed she is.

My friend is impressed at how I've handled myself through this, except that she's been relentlessly telling me to cut off emotionally from my W. She says that is the only way to force my W to make a decision. When I tell her I worry my W is too proud and insecure to ever come back with her hat in her hand, she says then my W isn't worth having back. She thinks my W has been acting very erratic and manipulative, and believes deep down my W still loves me, or is at least dependent on me in some way. She says if her H sent her an e-mail like I sent, she would just roll her eyes and say "whatever" and ignore it.

Ok, consider me sufficiently whacked. Now I need to decide how to handle the mediation session. Gnosis thinks I should be vicious. I'm not sure about that. Up until now, I've been paying my W voluntary child support, mainly because I understand if I didn't, my W could apply for emergency support from me, and get it, and probably a lot more than I give her, so I haven't pushed against that. If I want to send a strong message that my "nice guy" days are over, I could tell her I won't pay her another cent until we have an agreement that compels me to. That's my main leverage point right now. Otherwise, I will lay out my proposals for the separation, which are highly favorable to me, and stick to them, hard. Let her realize how unfavorable this is going to be to her, and how her future plans are looking pretty grim as a result of her actions. Unfortunately, our kids' futures are also significantly diminished, emotionally and financially. :-(
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 08:58 PM
If you want advice on how to play Legal/Financial Hardball, while maintaining a loving stance, ask Coach.

He is the master at that.

Puppy
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 09:00 PM
No viciousness -- calm, in command of your emotions, adult, firm. Does your W not earn as much as you? Or, not? If you have 50-50 child custody, and your W earns about the same, then surely you don't have to pay child support? I'm just throwing out thoughts here.

You don't have to lose the "Mr. Nice Guy" --- just be "Mr. Nice Steadfast Guy." The kids will gain from there being some stability --- that they know there will be no R, that this is the way things will be and they can move on from there.

Good to have the insider WAW friend.

Don't try and imagine what's going on in your W's head --- there is no controlling it, or manipulating it. Just do what you know is right for YOU!
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 09:02 PM
Yeah, the trick is to learn to be a nice guy, without being a Nice Guy. cool
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 09:30 PM
In the mediation sessions so far, I've been proud of myself that I've represented myself and my future well, and not rolled over at all. One session back in July I let my emotions get the best of me and I got quite beligerent, which I regret, and I've aplogized for. My W knows mediation is one place I have the upper hand. Her manipulation hasn't worked well there, because I'm an engineer, and the business-like nature of mediation doesn't lend itself to emotional manipulation. Besides, the mediator stops her when she's going off on some emotional tangent.

I think I just need to work a bit on the loving stance. I'll research Coach's advice in that area.

After our very first mediation session, where I think I shocked my W with how solid I was, we walked out together. She looked like an emotional wreck. I gave her a hug and said I just wanted her to be happy. I said "I'm sorry I didn't make you happy." About six months later she mentioned that as something that meant very much to her.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 10:12 PM
Seems az I gots sum 'splainin' ta do...

Future, here's my original quote:
Originally Posted By: Gnosis
Meet her at the table to show you're not scared of her. Don't back down, play hardball. Take as much as you can. Don't be fair. It's time to be vicious.

So.. by vicious I meant:

- show NO fear,
- don't back down on your demands,
- show strength and conviction (not wussy I'm not really sure...)
- demand what you want, not what she thinks is fair. And don't back down (not at this point) e.g 75/25 custody, child support etc.

I did NOT mean:

- You behave like a jerk
- You be mean and nasty
- You be vindictive

The purpose is to show strength and create respect. I added in the original post that if you do this, she will definitely walk away from the table. And... guess what... that's OK. Because it buys you more time.

You get what you're aiming for: A CRISIS that will shake her up and get her focused on thinking about you. Heck man, sometimes you want to get her angry. Angry is better than apathy or scorn. So what if she thinks you're being unreasonable. You're paying for it right? You want her to be thinking about you... At this moment she isn't, her attention is focused on OM, their fantasy and herself. So, any thought about you is a bonus. What are you scared of? Losing her? She's already gone and she's on her own timetable. In other words this is called, "Rocking the boat."

OK, now I'm going to dissect your last post:

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I am willing to stick to my guns and pursue the separation, but I'm not sure if I buy into Gnosis's philosophy of being vicious.

Got it and hope I covered it above.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
The last year has shown me that being reasonable and emotionally available doesn't work

Yup. So 180...

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
A very close friend of mine is a WAW so I take her advice very seriously.

And you should. You have the best source of intel on the planet. Follow it.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
she says I should push for the separation, then give my W the next year to make a move back toward me.

Very wise woman.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
she's been relentlessly telling me to cut off emotionally from my W.

I was only able to stop the needy, clingy behavior myself once I managed to disconnect my own emotions from the sitch. It's not easy and they do tend to flare up every now and again.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She says that is the only way to force my W to make a decision.

Or to make it seem like you're hell-bent on getting what YOU want out of this... while making her think that she is going to lose you forever... to another woman.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
When I tell her I worry my W is too proud and insecure to ever come back with her hat in her hand, she says then my W isn't worth having back.

I agree with your friend.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She thinks my W has been acting very erratic and manipulative, and believes deep down my W still loves me, or is at least dependent on me in some way.

Your wife IS manipulative. No, I don't think she is erratic. She's had a whole year to mess you around and get what she wants. i.e. Future dangling on a string while she fishes around for better options behind his back... and maybe... just maybe... if there's nothing better at the time... take him back until something pops up.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Up until now, I've been paying my W voluntary child support, mainly because I understand if I didn't, my W could apply for emergency support from me, and get it, and probably a lot more than I give her, so I haven't pushed against that.

So take the CS off the mediation table. If it comes up, you say, "What we have in place at the moment is perfectly reasonable and I'm happy with that. This is not open to negotiation. Next issue..."

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
If I want to send a strong message that my "nice guy" days are over, I could tell her I won't pay her another cent until we have an agreement that compels me to.

And that's another option you can use to enforce the previous response.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I will lay out my proposals for the separation, which are highly favorable to me, and stick to them, hard.

And that's being 'vicious' in my book.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Unfortunately, our kids' futures are also significantly diminished, emotionally and financially.

I'm sorry about that. One thing you need to realize though is that if things go according to her timetable and plan... the outcome will not change.

========= Feedback Ends =============

With that out of the way I'd like to ask you another question:

If you had a choice would you prefer your WAW be indifferent with you or angry?

From my side, I'd much rather have an angry W... because anger is an emotion and it means there is some feeling left inside the alien. Indifference or apathy is surefire death. Honest confession here... I sometimes push Mrs Gno's buttons on purpose just to check if she's still alive... if you know what I mean. I do that because I know if she can generate that much passion with anger, then the opposite still hold true.

I'm open to 2x4's on my maniacal, manipulative ways...
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 10:16 PM
Vicious bastard. wink

Puppy
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 10:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Vicious bastard. wink

Thanks PDT, I'll take that as a complement. LOL.

I can also 180... wink
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 10:29 PM
Yes, as that would be a "complementary angle," would it not? Or is it supplementary? Always got those confused. . . .
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/08/09 11:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Yes, as that would be a "complementary angle," would it not? Or is it supplementary? Always got those confused. . . .

Me too. I tend to think of it as an "implementary" angle. wink
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 02:02 AM
Was having a great night. On Sunday the kids and I and other friends went to a tree farm and cut down a beautiful Christmas tree. Got it in the stand last night, and tonight the kids and I decorated it. Was fun, and the kids were excited. Was a little emotionally tough breaking out all the ornaments and Christmas stuff, and particularly biting to see my lone stocking, as my W took all the others when she cleared out her stuff (I didn't know it at the time, or I might have objected). I even listened to the Christmas music I thought I'd never listen to again, as it was the music my W and I listened to and danced to last Christmas, on the last night we slept in the same bed. So I was doing well and feeling good.

Went into the basement to put the Christmas decoration boxes away and noticed one whole corner of the basement was flooded. Boxes upon boxes of stuff are ruined, and it's a big mess. I don't know where the water is even coming from. The sump pump is fine. I think the drainage tiles in that corner must be clogged up, which is BAD NEWS.

On top of that, I grab one box of stuff of papers from when my W and I bought this house, and I find a letter from OM to my W from 18 years ago, which is five years before I even met her. I don't know if that was their last contact until last year. The letter wasn't romantic at all, but it was long, and very personal. Clearly the letter meant something to her, as she kept it, although it was just tossed in with a bunch of other meaningless papers. I do know from intel that they hadn't been in contact for a LONG time before last year, so perhaps that letter was their last contact.

So now my good mood went to pure crap. I just snapped at my son. I hate being in mood like this.

Ok, back to business. I need to see my W to hand off our youngest daughter tomorrow morning. I struggle with how to behave. I guess I was planning on being pleasant, discussing whatever child issues need to be discussed, then making a hasty exit. Sound good?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 02:06 AM
Oh yeah, and on top of that, while I getting out the Christmas stuff, I stumbled upon an article my W photocopied years ago, probably for her academic work. It's an article on how new research is revealing how the damage children suffer from divorce is much deeper than previously thought. I have the urge to hand it to my W tomorrow morning and say "I found this while getting out the Christmas ornaments last night. Thought you might be interested." I know that's futile and would only make her angry. God forbid adademic research disagrees with her assessment that the children are better off with our family broken apart.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 03:58 AM
Quote:

With that out of the way I'd like to ask you another question:

If you had a choice would you prefer your WAW be indifferent with you or angry?

From my side, I'd much rather have an angry W... because anger is an emotion and it means there is some feeling left inside the alien. Indifference or apathy is surefire death. Honest confession here... I sometimes push Mrs Gno's buttons on purpose just to check if she's still alive... if you know what I mean. I do that because I know if she can generate that much passion with anger, then the opposite still hold true.


I agree entirely, I much prefer anger. That's why I was so happy at her reaction to my e-mail last week. Clearly I can still invoke some strong feelings in her, and all I did was say I was done with our M, the M she threw away!

My friend the WAW actually has two other friends who are WAWs as well who I talk to. I have quite the team of consultants! Anyway, they also have great anger at their divorced or estranged husbands, and as far as I can tell, it's not always a good thing. The four of us actually had quite the conversation last week about whether you can passionately hate someone you don't love, ignoring violent hatred that is, like for someone who hurt your child or something.

Another story I think about is our former nanny. She is a bit of an emotional wild child (but great with our kids), and she got pregnant from her boyfriend a couple years ago. He immediately dumped her, and she went through the pregnancy and birth alone. She vicerally hated him. She had to bring him to court to try to compel him to pay child support, and she ended up nearly physically attacking him in court, when he implied that she was an unfit mother and that he should get custody of the child. Know what? After her son was about a year old, this young messed up kid finally came around and asked her if he could be involved in his son's life. Pretty soon they were back in love, happy as can be, and are now engaged to be married. When I think about anger, I think about her.

Thanks everyone for sticking with me. I think I'm in for quite a ride.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 04:02 PM
Handoff this morning went fine, but it was emotionally brutal on me. My W was still in bed when my daughter and I arrived, so she was sleepy and disheveled when she came to the door. I always thought my W looked beautiful when she got out of bed, and this morning was no exception.

She was very nice to me, so I guess the venom has stopped. I gave a few quick updates on the kids status, and I told her about the basement flood and all the stuff being ruined, much of which is her old books from years ago. She was sympathetic and in her calm soothing voice said "H, I'm so sorry, you must be so stressed out." She has that voice that is of course her main tool to use in her MC sessions. Even after all these years, I just don't get how underneath that warm soothing exterior there is such a manipulative selfish person.

Our older daughter made her a very nice picture with a caption saying what an great mommy she is, and how much she loves her mommy. It was sitting in my kitchen this morning, so I grabbed it and brought it to my W as well. She said thanks, but didn't really look at it. That was my attempt at a loving gesture.

Finally, my W told me she taking the kids out of town this weekend, I'm sure to a special Christmas place she and I have discussed bringing them for a couple years now. That hit my heart a bit as well. I'd been thinking of bringing the kids there myself, but hadn't made a plan yet. I know that if I hadn't sent that e-mail, she would have likely asked me to go along. Yes, that would just be a continuation of her cake eating, but part of me does really long to go with them. I keep thinking about what Gnosis asked "Are you really happy with what your W is giving you?" and my answer is still "No."
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 04:10 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


She was very nice to me, so I guess the venom has stopped. I gave a few quick updates on the kids status, and I told her about the basement flood and all the stuff being ruined, much of which is her old books from years ago. She was sympathetic and in her calm soothing voice said "H, I'm so sorry, you must be so stressed out." She has that voice that is of course her main tool to use in her MC sessions. Even after all these years, I just don't get how underneath that warm soothing exterior there is such a manipulative selfish person.


Manipulating? Possibly. Or maybe she's being RESPECTFUL to you, since you've begun to stand up for yourself.

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 04:23 PM
Puppy, I don't think she was manipulating this morning. I was speaking in general. She just woke up! That would be pretty good to be all ready to manipulate right after waking up.

I believe she is being respectful. No venom, helpful, sympathetic comments. She wasn't being a brat at all. The W I used to live with would have thrown a little fit, saying "Now all my books are ruined! I hate this house! Why can't we get the water in the basement fixed!" then blame me for it all. Now she said "Don't worry about the books, I don't want them anyway."

She is so good at putting up a calm exterior, like she is totally fine with everything. I've been shocked this year when we finally have a conversation about us, and she says how much of a trainwreck she is inside, and is barely making it through each day. When I see her, like this morning, she acts totally fine. I guess we're all good at wearing our armor when we need to.

The majority of the ruined stuff in the basement is hers. It's a big mess that's going to be a very long and miserable job to clean up. Should I say I expect her to come over to help me clean it up? It's her stuff, and she left is strewn all over in the basement. Seems like this would be an opportunity for me to stand up for myself to insist she help me. Comments?
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 04:26 PM
I'm sorry Future. Wish I had words of comfort to offer.

Quote:
I told her about the basement flood and all the stuff being ruined, much of which is her old books from years ago. She was sympathetic and in her calm soothing voice said "H, I'm so sorry, you must be so stressed out."

Not sure about the timing, that sounds like an automatic response to me.

Puppy & Future, I have to disagree with both of you about this:
Quote:
Manipulating? Possibly. Or maybe she's being RESPECTFUL

None of the above. It probably didn't register on her that most of the stuff was hers. Or she's so completely disconnected and doesn't GAS. I know my W would freak out if her stuff was damaged.

I'd write this off as an automated response due to the fact that she wasn't completely tuned in at the time.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 04:33 PM
ROFLMAO.... Just saw your update.

As for this:
Quote:
Should I say I expect her to come over to help me clean it up?

Yes, its the right thing to do.

Wording to play with:
"W, I need to get this mess cleaned up ASAP. Would you like to come over and salvage whatever you can tonight? Its important you come and get whatever you can because I won't be held responsible for whatever ends up in the trash."
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 04:39 PM
Quote:

Puppy & Future, I have to disagree with both of you about this:

Quote:

Manipulating? Possibly. Or maybe she's being RESPECTFUL

None of the above. It probably didn't register on her that most of the stuff was hers. Or she's so completely disconnected and doesn't GAS. I know my W would freak out if her stuff was damaged.

I'd write this off as an automated response due to the fact that she wasn't completely tuned in at the time.


It wasn't just the thing about the stuff being ruined in the basement, it's been her whole demeanor lately toward me. Calm, respectful, no venom, no threats.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 08:30 PM
Just spoke with my W on the phone. Again she was pleasant. Here is how it went:

M: Since most of the stuff in the basement is yours, I don't think it's fair for me to slave down there for hours dealing with all the waterlogged stuff. I think you should help clear it out.
W: Not now, no.
M: What do you mean not now?
W: I can't go in that house again. I can't handle it. You said we're separated and we're done, then we're separated, and we're done. I can't handle going back there. If you want to hire someone to go in and clear it out, I'll contribute to that.

She was calm, and even, and matter of fact in her statement. No anger, no attitude at all. Just a tinge of sadness.

M: (trying to sound cheery, like her stating that we're done is fine with me) I'm not looking forward to dealing with it. It's really bad. I didn't realize you were done getting all your stuff out of the basement.
W: I took what I'm going to take. The rest is garbage. Again, I'll help pay if you want to hire it out, but I can't go back there.

I left it at that. I didn't feel I had any reasonable avenue to push her on it. She offered to pay if I wanted to hire it out. What else could I say that wouldn't sound petty and immature?

What is going on with her? She is not responding how I'm expecting. So now she just gives up and throws in the towel?

Ok, again I'm weak. Again I'm worried I've pushed her away for good. Is she just so good at playing this game? Didn't sound like a game on the phone. She sounded sad, but accepting of the situation. How can SHE be the one who's heartbroken? This is crazy! Is she really putting this on me, that I'm the one who ended our M?

I want to call her back and say "W, don't put this on me. You're the one who had the A and moved out. You're the one who ended our M. I just refused to live in limbo any more. If you wanted to save our M, I made it clear I was open to it. I was looking forward to having fun with you, but you never once showed me in any way that's what you wanted. Just the opposite in fact. Offering that to you after what I've been through took enormous courage, and my offer was met with ambivalence and apathy."
Posted By: TrentC Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 08:36 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
W: I can't go in that house again. I can't handle it. You said we're separated and we're done, then we're separated, and we're done. I can't handle going back there. If you want to hire someone to go in and clear it out, I'll contribute to that.


Is this what you actually said, or is she rewriting history?

If you didn't say that, you need to call her on it. As you say, it was her choices that led you to this point.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 08:38 PM
Well go through and clean it out. Leave it at that. She is being business like. Detached. So should you. Its her stuff. And in the end its just stuff. Detach and toss it. It will help you.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 08:47 PM
Quote:

Is this what you actually said, or is she rewriting history?


That's what I said. She responded very angrily at first, now appears to just accept it.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 08:48 PM
Quote:

Well go through and clean it out. Leave it at that. She is being business like. Detached. So should you. Its her stuff. And in the end its just stuff. Detach and toss it. It will help you.


I don't have any emotional attachment to the stuff. It's just a bunch of junk, and now it's all waterlogged. It's going to be a nasty job, and I thought she should help.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 08:52 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
My friend the WAW actually has two other friends who are WAWs as well who I talk to. I have quite the team of consultants! Anyway, they also have great anger at their divorced or estranged husbands


MEN HATERS! unless they are putting out I would quit talking to them if I was you. Are they the source of all your confusion?

I read through your posts and I see:

I am done with this marriage / I am going to give her a paper on how divorce affects children

I am done with this marriage / hopefully I can get her to work on this marriage

I am done with this marriage / I just need to work a bit on the loving stance.


I have to ask you do you feel confident about your "plan"? and whats this future?

Quote:
That was my attempt at a loving gesture.


Your loving gestures and stance has not worked over the past two years. Wouldnt you think that by attempting it now, after "the email" requesting separation/divorce/financial protection whatever you want to call it, your wife is going to view it as contradictory to what you are trying to convey? maybe even desperate?

You dumped her! Stop pursuing her! The key to making this work is she needs to turn around and begin pursuing you!

This statement of yours

"it's been her whole demeanor lately toward me. Calm, respectful, no venom, no threats."

She gave up! She is following the best advice. When someone dumps you, move on. Stop talking with them; lose the emotion connection asap. If you dont mirror her I think your plan is destined to fail.
Posted By: TrentC Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 08:55 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Quote:

Is this what you actually said, or is she rewriting history?


That's what I said. She responded very angrily at first, now appears to just accept it.


Well, it's hard to fault her for taking her at your word.

If she says it's junk, then toss it. You can't be faulted for taking her at her word.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 09:21 PM
Quote:

MEN HATERS! unless they are putting out I would quit talking to them if I was you. Are they the source of all your confusion?


LOL! I use them to try to gain insight into my W's state of mind. They are definitely not man haters, but they do show me exactly what WAW's say about their M and H. I know I'm only getting their side. I don't know about your experience, but at my age, the vast majority of single women are WAWs. I did meet one woman who was the LBS of a WAH. She was very wounded, but what I'm finding is that WAWs are just as wounded, just in a little different way.

Quote:

I read through your posts and I see:

I am done with this marriage / I am going to give her a paper on how divorce affects children

I am done with this marriage / hopefully I can get her to work on this marriage

I am done with this marriage / I just need to work a bit on the loving stance.


I have to ask you do you feel confident about your "plan"? and whats this future?


I am not done with this marriage, but I felt I needed to take that stance to create crisis in my W. That seemed to be what drew her toward me in the past, so I swung for the fence. I don't know how I feel about my plan. I know I needed to do something different. I've made it clear here that I am in unfamiliar territory, and I am unsure of what I'm doing. That's why I come to this board.

Quote:

Your loving gestures and stance has not worked over the past two years. Wouldnt you think that by attempting it now, after "the email" requesting separation/divorce/financial protection whatever you want to call it, your wife is going to view it as contradictory to what you are trying to convey? maybe even desperate?


I share three little kids with this woman. For me to give her a piece of paper with a drawing our daughter made for her is hardly desperate. It's showing her that I know we are still co-parents to our kids. I thought it would help convince her that I am moving on, that I'm not emotional about these things any more. I'm trying to treat them as just matter of fact now. I thought a valid strategy is to create confusion in the WAWs mind. That's one thing I'm trying to do. It sure as h*ll worked on me this year.

Quote:

You dumped her! Stop pursuing her! The key to making this work is she needs to turn around and begin pursuing you!


I'm not pursuing her. Other than to deal with minimal child issues, and this issue with her waterlogged stuff in the basement, I haven't communicated with her in any way since I sent my message.

Quote:

She gave up! She is following the best advice. When someone dumps you, move on. Stop talking with them; lose the emotion connection asap. If you dont mirror her I think your plan is destined to fail.


You're right, she is doing the right thing, because it has me wondering. I disagree she lost the emotional connection, because otherwise she'd have no problem going to the house to get her stuff.

But you're right, I am too worked up over all this. I need to just live my life. I understand you're trying to get me to actually be and feel what I'm trying to portray to my W. I'm working on it. Like I've said many times, if it weren't for our three kids, I would be just fine. When I don't have the kids, I'm living a fun single life. But when I get them, I start to long for my W and my family life back. I'm not sure how to get over that.
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 09:34 PM
Quote:
How can SHE be the one who's heartbroken? This is crazy! Is she really putting this on me, that I'm the one who ended our M?

Actually, she dumped you when she had the A and moved out of the house. You are finally responding correctly (IMHO) to that event. You are not ending the M, she is (by living elsewhere and continuing the A, she was still in that process)! You are just separating officially, to protect yourself. Who knows who will be the one serving the D papers?! That's a long ways away.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 09:42 PM
Hey F,

I know you're feeling hurt and confused right now. I just got back and want to fire a few questions your way... I'll take them one at a time.

1. She said, "I can't go in that house again. I can't handle it."

Why? Why is she saying this? What happened in the house?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 10:24 PM
Nothing bad happened. Being in the house makes her feel the loss of the life we built. We picked out the house together, we got married, we had three kids there. It's filled with memories for her, and it's very hard for her to be there now. It's hard for me too, and unfortunately for me, I LIVE there.

She has come to the house briefly to stand in the entry way to pick up the kids, but the last time she was really in the house was back in September when she went in to clear more of her stuff out. She was in a lot of emotional pain. I came in and could see how much she was hurting. After a while she asked me to sit down in the living room. She started reminiscing about our memories there, good memories of us and the kids. When I heard that I really thought our M had a chance. As she left, she said she's just realized how hard it must be for the kids to be there without her. I just nodded.

So when she says she can't handle being in the house, she means it's too emotionally painful. I think she's being a little over dramatic, but that's her.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 10:28 PM
Quote:

Actually, she dumped you when she had the A and moved out of the house. You are finally responding correctly (IMHO) to that event. You are not ending the M, she is (by living elsewhere and continuing the A, she was still in that process)! You are just separating officially, to protect yourself. Who knows who will be the one serving the D papers?! That's a long ways away.


Thanks BeingMe, it's great to hear someone else say that.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 10:54 PM
F, thanks for answering about the house. I agree with BeingMe and wanted to say the same thing. Still working from the same post here.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Since most of the stuff in the basement is yours, I don't think it's fair for me to slave down there for hours dealing with all the waterlogged stuff. I think you should help clear it out.

If those are the exact same words you used then you went about it the wrong way. It sounds like you're trying to emotionally blackmail her. i.e. "Poor me, you left your crap lying around and now I have to clean it up. It's not fair! You should do it..."

Then when you pushed with the "What do you mean not now?"... it triggered her own emotional blackmail response...
I can't go in that house again. I can't handle it.
i.e. Poor me... and then SLAP!!! ...
You said we're separated and we're done, then we're separated, and we're done.
I dunno how many times I've to said this on the board: Anything you say or do can and will be used against you... Guaranteed! That my friend is what is called MANIPULATION and your W is extremely GOOD at it. That's what MC's do don't they? Use your own words against you to dig deeper into the meaning behind them. To get you to doubt your own motives and discover your intentions.

If you want to hire someone to go in and clear it out, I'll contribute to that.
Have a couple of pro's come in. Get them to salvage whatever they can. When they're done, get her stuff sent to her with a note: "Thought you might still want some of this." What you send should not be anything to create guilt or put pressure on her. Make it a friendly gesture. It'll get her thunking...

More coming up...
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/09/09 11:08 PM
No anger, no attitude at all. Just a tinge of sadness.
That sadness is slightly encouraging. It may be the beginning of a little remorse. I dunno... don't try read too much into it.

What is going on with her? She is not responding how I'm expecting.
Don't have any expectations.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Again I'm worried I've pushed her away for good. Is she just so good at playing this game? Didn't sound like a game on the phone. She sounded sad, but accepting of the situation. How can SHE be the one who's heartbroken? This is crazy! Is she really putting this on me, that I'm the one who ended our M?

You're trying to mindread. You don't know what she's thinking. If she's accepting of the situation maybe she's going to start regretting her actions. Let her wallow in self-pity for a while. Let her think it's over. You wanted the CRISIS... this is part of it. Just like your own mind is your worst enemy, so is hers. Her sadness is a signal of her questioning if this was all worth it.

Later on in the game... after your mediation and before you sign the papers you can throw her a bone. In the meantime you let her wallow in sadness and hope that it grows into regret. You're not even half-way through this process yet.

Patience grasshopper. This is a mindgame. She's good at it... but you're getting better.

Oh, and if you're wondering how I come up with all this SH!T... my mother is an professional emotional blackmailer (I had 28 years of that crap until I put my foot down on it... and she STILL manages to get me sometimes.) And my W is a psychologist. I often joked to friend that I was her guinea pig... I don't do that anymore.

Hold the line.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/10/09 12:49 AM
Thanks Gnosis. For the first time, I am holding the line. I have to think of this as a long term strategy. One thing I've learned through this is that I HAVE TIME! My natural impulse is to fix now, now, now, but after one year of this, I've learned patience. If we're still in play one year after she moved out, had an A, endless turmoil, why should I fear this is the end?

I really could use some peace in my life too, so just falling back and letting time go by doesn't sound so bad.
Posted By: Unsure10 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/10/09 03:49 PM
Futureunknown,

I've been reading a lot of your thread and with the exception of a few thinkgs it is soo similar to my situation.

Keep moving forward and holding those lines. I'm learning about that now. I want hope that things for me can work out and you are giving me some. You've had a lot of great advice given to you.

Good luck.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/10/09 06:10 PM
Hi Unsure10-

Just got done reading your thread, and yes, our situations do sound very similar. Mine is about 6 months further along, so hopefully my experience can help you.

My W was COMPLETELY infatuated with OM by the time I found out about her A. I know my W, and there was no way she wasn't going to pursue it at that point. In your case, I'm not sure just how involved your W is with her two OM's. IMO, if there are two of them, neither one can mean all that much to her. More like amusements and distractions and ego boosters. This is a good thing, as she probably isn't as far gone. I think if you gave her a good enough reason, she'd drop those OM's.

I agree with the advice you're getting, you need to get your W to respect you again.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/10/09 06:29 PM
Trying to prepare myself ahead of time for interaction with my W in the near future. Don't know what will happen at the mediation, but I want to be ready with a plan, instead of trying to shoot from the hip, which I'm lousy at.

If she gives me attitude that I'm the one ending our M, and therefore she should get consideration in the mediation, how should I respond? My impulse would be to ask the mediator to leave the room, then strongly, but calmly, say something like "W, don't put this on me. You ended our M when you decided to have an A and leave me. I hung in for a year, working on myself, owning my failures, being open with you about how I feel about you, and showing my willingness to work on our M. You've given a few vague indications that you don't want to lose the security our M offers you, but nothing that says you're serious about saving our M. Your decisions over the last year and a half have led us here, and I won't tolerate this attitude that now YOU'RE the victim."

Or should I just say "W, you know who led us here, so spare me the attitude. Let's just get through this and get it done."

Or should I ignore her attitude and keep pushing my agenda?
Posted By: antlers Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/10/09 07:59 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Trying to prepare myself ahead of time for interaction with my W in the near future. Don't know what will happen at the mediation, but I want to be ready with a plan, instead of trying to shoot from the hip, which I'm lousy at.

If she gives me attitude that I'm the one ending our M, and therefore she should get consideration in the mediation, how should I respond? My impulse would be to ask the mediator to leave the room, then strongly, but calmly, say something like "W, don't put this on me. You ended our M when you decided to have an A and leave me. I hung in for a year, working on myself, owning my failures, being open with you about how I feel about you, and showing my willingness to work on our M. You've given a few vague indications that you don't want to lose the security our M offers you, but nothing that says you're serious about saving our M. Your decisions over the last year and a half have led us here, and I won't tolerate this attitude that now YOU'RE the victim."

Or should I just say "W, you know who led us here, so spare me the attitude. Let's just get through this and get it done."

Or should I ignore her attitude and keep pushing my agenda?


I like your first and second responses futureunknown, but I wouldn't ask the mediator to leave the room...I'd say it in front of the mediator...calmly, cool, and collected.
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/10/09 08:40 PM
Hi Future! Thinking about these things now is probably pretty smart! I like both responses, and I also agree that theres no need to ask the mediator to leave the room. Im sure that if you stay cool, calm and factual about it, she will be quite disarmed.

Good luck! When is mediation?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/10/09 09:06 PM
Hi bluerain! Thanks for checking in.

The mediation is next Wednesday. My W has gone seriously dark now. I have to admit, I'm anxious about all this, but I had to do something to shake things up.

Here are other things I'd LIKE to say. I welcome opinions on whether they would be beneficial:

* If my W gives some BS like "You said it's over, so it's over" I'd like to reply with "W, you've given no indication you're interested in saving our M, so yes, I'm done. We're not divorced yet though. If I'm wrong in my impression about what you want, be my guest to try to change my mind." If she sticks to her guns and says "No, no. You said you're done, so that's it" then I come back with "That's what I thought. You're all talk and no action."

* If my W acts all self pitying, I like to say "W, give me a break. Poor you. You can't be with your boyfriend. Your husband doesn't want you anymore. You don't have any money. You only see your kids half the time. You don't know where you'll get health insurance. All direct results of decisions you've made, so spare me the self pity."
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/11/09 04:39 PM
I just had another bomb dropped on me.

I'm working on a project at work that involves two foreign countries. I'm on a conference call yesterday, and I'm informed another country is joining our team. Sure enough, it the country OM lives in. I now react poorly whenever I even hear that county's name, but I thought "No big deal, I'm not going to live the rest of my life avoiding anything to do with that country." Then I hear the city and my heart drops. It's the city OM lives in. I might have to go there for work. My co-workers are all excited about the idea of going, and I'm sitting there in shock. My work is my one refuge from all this crap, and now it just came reaching right in and sucker punched me.

Maybe it happened on purpose to force me to deal with my feelings about all this. It's a SHOCKING coincidence.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/11/09 05:33 PM
Future, still here... still watching. Haven't responded because I haven't had the time to dissect. I'll get back to you on your previous questions.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/11/09 05:41 PM
I have never been through mediation myself but my attny was also a mediator. Obviously he could not represent me as my attny and mediate between my H and I. I do think though is mediation skills spilled over in the way he practiced law. He was very good at letting me get out the "emotional stuff" and gently steering me back to the task at hand (the legal stuff) without me even knowing it. I would guess that is a skill most mediators have as they know separation/divorce is so emotionally charged.

Looking back on my experience with my attny I can very clearly see how good he was at that. I still felt heard on the emotional stuff but he was excellent at keeping me focused on the legal stuff.

I have had a few friends go through mediation and they all had very positive experiences even though the situation was difficult and unpleasant (divorce/separation). When I say it was a positive experience for them, I mean the mediator really helped them stay focused on the tasks at hand.

Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 04:54 AM
Strange development today. I had made plans to bring the kids to the local college basketball game, so I texted my W last night to request that I pick up the kids a half hour early so we can get to the game on time. She replied that it was okay. Last week I brought the kids to a game, they were thrilled, and I went with some friends, including a woman and her teenage daughter who doded over my young girls the whole time. We had a great time, and I'm sure they kids told their Mom all about it.

So today I go to pick up the kids, and my W is very nice and informs me that she and her friend are going to the game too. She asked where we'd be sitting so she could come by and say hi. I told her I wasn't sure where my seats were, which was true at the time. I didn't acknowledge that she said she'd come by to say hi. I just gathered up the kids and their stuff and left.

I was going to the game with the same group of friends, but we weren't all sitting together. I had my kids off in a section by ourselves. Sure enough, a little while into the game, I get a text on my phone. It's not even from my W, it's from her friend. She said my W forgot her phone, but they wanted to know if we were at the game. This is a Div I game, with about 25,000 in attendance, so it's not like she could just scan the crowd. I was annoyed that they were intruding on my time with my kids, but I hate being rude, so I replied and said we were there. They sent back a message asking where we were sitting. At that point I was getting really annoyed. I just ignored the message for the whole first half and through halftime. I thought if I replied after the second half is underway, they'd get the hint that I didn't want their company. No luck. I sent a three word reply saying what section we were in, and a little while later there they were. They were sitting at the complete other side of the stadium, so they walked all the way over. They didn't ask if it was okay to come by, they just did.

I said hi when she walked up, then bye when she left, nothing else. Just watched the game, didn't look at her. My son sat with me the whole time, the girls went to get hugs. My W was all smiles and friendly, scoping out the situation. I can't believe she was spying on me. Unbeknownst to her, we were there with the same friends, but they were sitting in a different section.

So now she's spying on me? This just gets wierder and wierder.
Posted By: Deep Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 05:05 AM
I don't think you seriously think it is THAT wierd eh?

It's par for the course. Read advice from Gucci, Robx, Steve, and to a lesser extent Puppy and they'll forecast this outcome for you waaaay in advance.

No one likes someone else touching what they consider still theirs. Doormats are no exception.

Well done btw, and good luck!
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 12:30 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
So now she's spying on me? This just gets wierder and wierder.


not at all. she wanted to know if this woman was prettier than her. normal, typical, expected reaction.

I think it is time you set up a one on one social interaction on a evening where you would need to ask your wife to switch nights with the kids (that is they cant sleep at your place and you will have to pick them up late in the afternoon the next day). Come over dressed to kill and flirt abit but then run out the door. Magic 8 ball says your cell phone will be ringing all night long.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 01:28 PM
I wouldn't have answered her. And I DAMNED sure wouldn't have answered her FRIEND!

Puppy
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 01:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
So now she's spying on me? This just gets wierder and wierder.


not at all. she wanted to know if this woman was prettier than her. normal, typical, expected reaction.

I think it is time you set up a one on one social interaction on a evening where you would need to ask your wife to switch nights with the kids (that is they cant sleep at your place and you will have to pick them up late in the afternoon the next day). Come over dressed to kill and flirt abit but then run out the door. Magic 8 ball says your cell phone will be ringing all night long.


BINGO.

Puppy
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 02:14 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
I wouldn't have answered her. And I DAMNED sure wouldn't have answered her FRIEND!

Puppy


Is her friend HOT? is she game

maybe you should send her a text today. Just want to say hi and see how you are doing. See how she liked the game

you like basketball, she likes basketball. nothing wrong with talking about basketball. its all a game
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 02:41 PM
Quote:

don't think you seriously think it is THAT wierd eh?

It's par for the course. Read advice from Gucci, Robx, Steve, and to a lesser extent Puppy and they'll forecast this outcome for you waaaay in advance.

No one likes someone else touching what they consider still theirs. Doormats are no exception.


I guess it's not so wierd, but it's been a LONG time since I've seen my W jealous. Felt pretty good, although I'm surprised, and pleased, how I'm feeling lately. I'm happy staying distant from her, and I've decided I deserve much better than what she's been giving me, and not just since she left, but for a couple years beforehand as well. In the past I would have been thrilled that she came to see us at the game, and would have offered for her to sit with us (there were plenty of open seats), and would have suggested we all get beers and have a grand ole time. Blech! My eyes are open now. I haven't gotten involved with anyone else, but I'm getting enough attention from other women to make me realize what I could have and what I deserve. I was so committed to my M and family that I was willing to live on whatever scraps were thrown my way.

Quote:

Well done btw, and good luck!


Thanks!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 03:00 PM
Quote:

Quote:

So now she's spying on me? This just gets wierder and wierder.


not at all. she wanted to know if this woman was prettier than her. normal, typical, expected reaction.


So funny! And what if she is prettier? What if she's not? Then what? If that's what where my W is, she's got it all wrong. This other woman is NICE to me, and my kids. She treats me with complete RESPECT, as do some other women I've met. That's what has me walking away from my W, and that's what has me realizing I deserve more. For the record though... she ain't bad ;-)

Quote:

I think it is time you set up a one on one social interaction on a evening where you would need to ask your wife to switch nights with the kids (that is they cant sleep at your place and you will have to pick them up late in the afternoon the next day). Come over dressed to kill and flirt abit but then run out the door. Magic 8 ball says your cell phone will be ringing all night long.


LOL! Like you and Puppy have been saying for a while now, my W is too smart for that. She'd see through it in a second, and it would actually make her feel BACK in control. I need to be more subtle. The basketball game worked because it was real, and it was the kids that clued her in, not me. If I need a night off from the kids, I would ask her mother to take them, as I have in the past. The cool thing is, she would still hear about it, either from the kids, or her mother. Even the whole schtick of me being dressed to kill, she'd hear about that too. The fact that she has to hear about it second hand makes it even better I think. Allows her to know less, and wonder more.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 03:08 PM
Quote:

I wouldn't have answered her. And I DAMNED sure wouldn't have answered her FRIEND!


Ugh! Here is where I always fail. I don't know if this is a "nice guy" trait, or just simple courtesy, but ignoring someone is so blasted rude! In my mind, it's no different than if someone came right up to me and addressed me. For me to just pretend they're not there goes so against my grain. As Gnosis said recently regarding my situation, ugly is the new good, so maybe I should go against my grain and be rude. What my W did was FAR more than just rude!

Realize, her friend is my friend too. Her and her husband and kids were our best friends when we were still together. I think the fact my W had her friend text me is EXACTLY what she wanted to do, as she knew I'd be less likely to blow her off. And I'm sure she wanted her friend there as emotional backup in case I was with another woman.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 03:20 PM
It's not rude -- it's self-preservation. You ignore it, then text her back from the parking lot after the game: "Sorry, just got this. What a game, huh?! :o)"
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 03:21 PM
I recently realized the power of all this. I was so worried before that I'd be pushing my W back into OM's arms, but I think that's exactly wrong. If she is feeling jealous, and if she is wondering why I made my declaration that our M was over, the LAST thing she'll want to do is make some plan with OM that would push me even FURTHER away, especially after she told me her A with OM was over, for good. If she's worried about losing me, and if she sees that I'm finally walking away, she'd know that demonstrating another lie would just validate my reasons.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 03:23 PM
Quote:

It's not rude -- it's self-preservation. You ignore it, then text her back from the parking lot after the game: "Sorry, just got this. What a game, huh?! :o)"


Exactly! I've got to get better at that. At least for once I legitamately didn't want to respond, but only felt compelled to as a simple courtesy. And I absolutely did NOT want to see her at that game. I was quite p*ssed she intruded like that.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 03:27 PM
Well, just so you know, she did it for the same reason that dogs lick themselves. cool
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 03:27 PM
I wonder if the kids will tell their Mom that that woman and her daughter were at the game with us again, but just weren't sitting with us. Hilarious. Talk about keeping her confused and guessing!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 03:30 PM
Quote:

Well, just so you know, she did it for the same reason that dogs lick themselves.


?????????????
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 03:36 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
The fact that she has to hear about it second hand makes it even better I think. Allows her to know less, and wonder more.


yep. but I wouldnt be ugly or rude about it, but rather good-lookin', polite but disinterested, and smiling like I just got laid.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 04:15 PM
Quote:

yep. but I wouldnt be ugly or rude about it, but rather good-lookin', polite but disinterested, and smiling like I just got laid.


Right! You know what? I think I'm actually starting to get this! If she has seeds of doubt and wonder in her mind now, that's the fertilizer that makes 'em grow.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 04:49 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Quote:

Well, just so you know, she did it for the same reason that dogs lick themselves.


?????????????


Its reaction, instinct... Its how were wired...
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 04:58 PM
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Well, just so you know, she did it for the same reason that dogs lick themselves.


?????????????


Its reaction, instinct... Its how were wired...


No... I just got it! She did it because she could do it. LOL! I let her, so she took advantage.

All the more reason I hope my kids tell her that woman was at the game with us. She'll wonder if she was made a fool of, like I had to tell my friends "My STBXW is determined to come over here and see what's going on. Can you folks go sit over there for a few minutes so I don't have some crazy scene on my hands? I'll try to get rid of her as soon as I can."

It was a big stadium full of people. If she thinks there were other people near us watching her, she'll be mortified. The truth is, there were. My friends were sitting across in another section, and watched the whole thing go down. My cell phone was ringing and texting the whole time she was with us!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/14/09 05:16 PM
Previously I would have been struggling with the notion that my behavior at the game and even my attitude here is hardly what I'd call "compassionate". I've been trying to show my W compassion through this, but I think I've finally realized that RESPECT has to come first, then compassion.

I hope she does come to show me real respect again, since I'd like to show her compassion. But right now, she doesn't deserve it.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/15/09 04:13 PM
Mediation is tomorrow. My goal is to strongly maintain my position on our financial agreement and custody, but not show any anger. In the past, I let my anger get the best of me. I want to be very practical about everything, and even try to use a little humor.

I've been thinking about my life, and I realize that I've been married for 10 years, but with luck I've got 50+ to go. I have to think of the future now, and realize that acommodating my W cannot be my priority any more. I need to think of me, and my kids, and truthfully, a possible future wife and other kids who may depend on me.

I need to be frank about the liklihood of my marrying someone else, and possibly having another child with them (less likely), or accepting some amount of responsibility for providing for their children (more likely). My life planning, including this separation agreement, can no longer merely focus on my kids, which is very sad, but I'm noticing also has a strange gentle optimism about it, realizing that a new future is out there waiting for me.

I avoid facing the reality that half of my kids lives will now be out of my view, as it is too sad think of for long.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 03:43 PM
Good luck on the mediation today Future. The one thing I can add from the top of my head is that this is DEFINITELY NOT the end.

She's starting to show some interesting signs. That incident at the ball game I'd chalk up to curiosity and not jealousy at the moment.

Keep holding the line.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 04:09 PM
Thanks Gnosis. Yeah, I can't quite figure out what going on with her, but like you said, I shouldn't even try. I agree with you that she wasn't quite jealous at the basketball game. She doesn't know enough to be jealous, but she definitely wanted to know what was going on. I have no idea how she would have reacted had the other woman been sitting with us, playing with HER kids. Funny, she goes from spewing and the silent treatment to being friendly and walking all the way across the stadium to come by and say hi. Guess she wasn't that interested in watching the game!

I will hold the line at mediation. I have my points all written out and ready to discuss. I am committing myself to showing no anger at all, but sticking to my points. The financials do not look good for her at all!
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 04:32 PM
I'm pushing for you bro.

Keep a business like manner during mediation. NO EMOTION, you going to have to put your acting skills to their best use possible.

If she tries to pin this onto you reply with, "I understand how you could see it like that. I know that one day, when you look back upon this with a clearer head, you will see that you left me no choice. With that in mind let's return to the issue at hand and move on, shall we?"

Again, I repeat, this is NOT the end. You're stirring the pot.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 04:42 PM
I do realize this isn't the end. If my other post sounded that way, it's because I'm trying to get myself in that mindset to help me handle mediation. I need to give the impression that I'm done, so the more I believe it, the better. I'm also a realist, and know that my M very well may be over, so I need to put myself in the best possible position for the future.

Gotta go to mediation now. I'll post when I get back!
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 04:54 PM
My thoughts and prayers are with you my friend and your wife.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 06:23 PM
Good luck today! Just take things one issue at a time and use the resources of the mediator to keep you on track!

You will be great!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 09:01 PM
I'm back.

I sure hope this isn't the end, because I do love that woman. You might read that and think I was weak, but I wasn't. I stuck to my guns. And you might read what's coming next and wonder why I love her, but I do.

We started by my laying out our financial history and how she has to share in our financial burdens 50/50. I make about 2/3rds of our combined income, but we have a block of marital debt that she's just as liable for as me. She said she's not paying me a penny, and that the debt is on me. She said there's no way she's liable. She said our financial burdens were mostly my fault anyway, because I made some bad decisions too, and I could have said no to her when she was spending money. Wow. At this point the mediator calmly jumped in and said my case was valid, but also pointed out that there was no financial means available for her to compensate me.

Then my W laid out a proposal that said she can provide after school care for the kids if I pay her for her time. We do need to provide care, and I said perhaps that was a way she could compensate me for the financial burdens she's left me. She got angry and started down a very ugly path. She said the reason she shouldn't have to compensate me is because she's ALLOWING us to have 50/50 custody. THAT's my compensation she said. I asked "What do you mean?" She said "I think it would be better for the kids if I had primary custody, but I know their time with you is important, so I'm willing to stick with our shared custody. That's how I'm compensating you for the financial burdens." I didn't get angry, but I strongly said "So I should consider the fact that you're not taking my kids from me entirely as a gift? I think the courts might think otherwise. If you want to go down that route, let's go." She said "I'm not afraid of going to court. I have documented evidence of you getting the kids to school late, and sending them to mom's so you can go out." I said "Do you really want me presenting my case in court?" Again she said "I'm not afraid." I stopped and paused for a LONG time. The mediator just let me pause. Then I said "I'm not sure we should be here anymore. If you're willing to go down that road, I don't think this is going to work." Then the mediator jumped in and said "There isn't money for her to compensate you for the financial burden, so W, is there even a symbolic gesture you can make to allow H to know you accept shared responsibility for the financial situation? Again I said maybe the child care she provides on my days would be a way. She resisted at first, but then said she'd consider it.

That was the worst of it, then it started getting better. We discussed life insurance, and how I was planning on setting up a trust for the kids with my father as trustee. She started objecting, asking what happens if my father dies, and I said then my brother becomes trustee. She didn't like the idea of having to negotiate with them to get money for the kids' college expenses. I asked "Don't you trust that they'll keep the kids' interest at heart? I've talked to them about it, and they just want to do whatever I ask them to do." She then said something that made me take note. She said with a defeated tone "I've given up believing people will do what they say." The look on her face was one of pain, and I knew she was talking about OM. She then said "What if S is a gifted artist and wants to go to Europe to learn? Your father or brother aren't going to support that." I asked "Do you think I would?" She softened and said "Yes, that's why I married you and not your brother." That got to me a little and I softened a bit. I said I was touched by that and I'll think about what I'll do about it. Didn't offer anything, just said I'd think about it.

I then brought up the issue that my social security and life insurance will need to be split among my future wife and possible other dependent children. My W more strongly said "If that's the case, I definitely want something in our agreement that says some amount of money is allocated to our kids' college." Again I sincerely said I'd think about how I was going to handle that. The mediator asked if I'd like my W to get life insurance as well. She had no idea how much it would cost, so I said it would probably cost her around $300 per year. She said "I'm going to need to save every penny so I don't end up like my Mom (living on a meager fixed income). She was supposed get some of my Dad's life insurance when he died and it didn't end up happening, and now look how she lives." A little back story required here. Her Dad had an A and left her Mom, and her Mom never quite recovered, never remarried, and now lives alone on her low income. Her life has been absolutely rejuvenated by her grandkids though! Anyway, back the story at hand. After my W gave her sob story about needing to save so she doesn't end up like her mom I looked right at her and said "With your Mom, the roles were reversed though." My W looked like she got kicked in the gut, and she quietly said "We don't need to discuss that here." That might have been a cheap shot, but it's about making her feel consequences, right? I ended up saying she didn't need to get insurance, as long as I'd get her Social Security.

That's about it. We wrapped up and left. My W was an emotional wreck. We got to the elevators and I asked "Do you want me to take a different elevator?" She looked straight ahead and gave no response, so I quietly said "That was a joke." She just nodded. We got in the elevator and she pressed the button for the lobby, then I said "I like walking down the marble staircase", so I hit the button for the second floor. The building is a grand old building that has a big open marble staircase from the second floor to the lobby. My W kind of smiled. I wondered if she'd get off with me at the second floor, and she did, and we walked down the marble staircase together. We walked out the door, she turned right and said "See ya." I said "Bye, W."

Sorry this is so long, I tried to only include the most important stuff, and thanks for everyone's support here!
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 09:15 PM
Very well done, Grasshoppah. whistle whistle

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 09:55 PM
Thanks Puppy! I think I did okay.

My W called twice afterwards, I didn't answer, but she left a voice message saying "H, we were done. We were sleeping in separate beds. I was looking for another place to live. We were done. If you want to call it an A, that's up to you, but if you're going to bring it up in mediation when I'm paying for it, let me know and I'll not bother to waste the money. I don't care what the mediator thinks, that's why I didn't defend myself today, but there's no point in bringing it up in mediation."

The whole thing is ridiculous. She's so trying to alleviate her guilt. She doesn't accept that she was in an EA prior to us sleeping in separate beds. Her EA turned sexual literally the day after she decided to sleep in a seperate bed. Plus she herself said several times during the last year that we're NOT done yet. Just two weeks ago she threw a fit when I said I was done.

My impulse is to respond and point all this out, but I assume I shouldn't take the bait? She wants to fight, to put in on me, right?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 09:56 PM
Oh, I think you know the answer to that one already, Future. smirk

Puppy
Posted By: Coach Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 10:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Oh, I think you know the answer to that one already, Future. smirk

Puppy


Yep, let her own it all by herself. Let her thoughts marinate on her brain for a while.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 10:12 PM
I'm a slow learner, but not THAT slow! grin
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 10:14 PM
She sounded like a wreck on the phone too. She is not doing well.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 10:25 PM
Consequences.

Pray for her.
Posted By: Coach Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 10:38 PM
Quote:
She sounded like a wreck on the phone too. She is not doing well.


She can handle it.

Quote:
Pray for her.


Loving and compassionate thing to do.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/16/09 10:52 PM
And that my Future my friend is HOW TO CREATE A CRISIS.

I didn't like the way she threw the kids and their well-being into the mediation session. But that's OK. It wasn't meant to be the final one.

Let her stew on this over the holidays. All is good. Keep on holding the line. We need to break this stubborn filly.
Posted By: motherof3 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 12:18 AM
Future,

I am a silent lurker on your thead. Just wanted to pop in and say great job today.

Two weeks ago my H had mentioned setting up a session with a mediator, but haven't heard anything since. I suspect H is waiting until after the holidays. I may need your advice later in preparing for that.

Mo3
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 03:40 AM
Hi Future, you are doing so well, her- not so much! I hope that she can own her screw ups, but if not, that cant be your problem. Im proud of how far you have come, and Im so glad that you are looking forward to the future.

I have gotten to the point where I am excited to move forward, to start over and have a chance to have a new life.

Yes, your future is still unknown, but its going to be great, no matter what happens.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 04:42 AM
This song comes to mind right now:

I study nuclear science
I love my classes
I got a crazy teacher, he wears dark glasses
Things are going great, and they're only getting better
I'm doing all right, getting good grades
The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades

I've got a job waiting for my graduation
Fifty thou a year -- buys a lot of beer
Things are going great, and they're only getting better
I'm doing all right, getting good grades
The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades

Well I'm heavenly blessed and worldly wise
I'm a peeping-tom techie with x-ray eyes
Things are going great, and they're only getting better
I'm doing all right, getting good grades
The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades

I study nuclear science
I love my classes
I got a crazy teacher, he wears dark glasses
Things are going great, and they're only getting better
I'm doing all right, getting good grades
The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades
I gotta wear shades, I gotta wear shades

The Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades - Timbuk 3
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 04:44 AM
Gnosis-

I don't know how old you are, but I have the 45rpm record of that song! LOL!!!!
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 04:46 AM
laugh LOL

I thought of that song applying to you ever since I read your screen name. My age is in my sig.

The 80's rocked!!!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 04:53 AM
Yeah, that's around 1986 I think. I was in college when it came out. Cool song!

Hey Gnosis, I want you to know I have read your thread, I don't feel very qualified to offer advice, but I am in your corner.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 04:55 AM
Quote:

Pray for her.


I have, and I will continue to. I do feel sorry for her. I know underneath that armor is a hurting wounded person. If I had realized that five years ago, I don't think I'd be here right now.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 04:59 AM
Quote:

Future,

I am a silent lurker on your thead. Just wanted to pop in and say great job today.

Two weeks ago my H had mentioned setting up a session with a mediator, but haven't heard anything since. I suspect H is waiting until after the holidays. I may need your advice later in preparing for that.

Mo3


Motherof3-

Thanks! I've had five mediation sessions now, so I know how they go, and I've definitely gotten better dealing with them. Drop in and let me know if I can help. I'll look for your thread and read it over to familiarize myself. This whole "wait until after the holidays" crap makes me mad. That's why I insisted on scheduling mediation now, while my W wanted to wait until January.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 05:00 AM
Future, thanks for the support.

Feel free to offer your commentary. You'll notice that I'm kind of hard-headed and set on my path... Me and my maniacal ways. I've been planning this for a while. I know what needs to be done and am doing it. How it turns out is up to me.

I was busy writing the status update... so let me return to it.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 05:07 AM
Quote:

Hi Future, you are doing so well, her- not so much! I hope that she can own her screw ups, but if not, that cant be your problem. Im proud of how far you have come, and Im so glad that you are looking forward to the future.

I have gotten to the point where I am excited to move forward, to start over and have a chance to have a new life.

Yes, your future is still unknown, but its going to be great, no matter what happens.


bluerain, it's so awesome you've stayed around. You've been with me since almost the beginning, and it means a lot to me. I do keep up with your thread, and I can see how well you've moved on. You're still young. A whole new life awaits you.

Yeah, I don't know if my W will ever really own what's she's done. I thought she was getting better, but the alien has really come back with a vengence! I do still love her, but at this point, I have to see something real and consistent before I'll budge an inch.

I do feel pretty good about my future, but it is still unknown. I'm glad I gave myself that name, since it's open ended, instead of something dreary, like "futuresad" or "futurealone" or some such dreck!
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 05:58 PM
I like how you stayed firm, even though you didn't get what you completely wanted. i am shocked at how she thought she was 'allowing' the children 50/50 custody. And, a M is never done until the judge says it is. I believe, even being separated and invested emotionally in another person, is an A. But, that's just me.

You are doing awesome.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 07:08 PM
BeingMe, you've also been with me here for a long time. Thanks.

She pulled that custody thing because she knows it'll get my attention. She was feeling bullied by me and she wanted to try to assert her power. I didn't back down, but it did work to some degree. She instilled a bit of fear in me that she'll try to take the kids.

I also agree that our M will not be over for quite a while yet. I just re-read your very first post to me, and you said how it wasn't until you declared you were done, and started living your life just for you, that your H came around. I've started down that path. We'll see where it goes.

My W's A started long before we were separated. She's trying to wiggle out of being labeled a cheater, which I've never called her. I've only used the word affair a few times in total, but that's definitely what it was.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 07:23 PM
My H, to this day, says the same thing. Since he felt in his own mind (before he informed me of course) that we were separated and I would be on board with the marriage ending then he did not cheat. He went as far as to try and use this defense in court. LOL!

He reminds me all the time that he is not a cheater. I just say "ok".
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 07:27 PM
Amazing the lengths some people will go through to avoid blame! Just own what you did! Tiger has! LOL!
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 07:30 PM
Well, if my H gave me 80 million (or whatever figure it was) I might be wiling to overlook a few "transgressions" smile

My H is hardcore golfer and a huge fan of the sport in general. I always thought Tiger was *something* more than what he presented himself as. I guess my intuition was not that far off base!

I wanted to ask him what he thought of Tiger now. Sicko.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 07:32 PM
Brings to mind a modified old saying...

You can lead the WAS to logic but you can't make them think © 2009 Gnosis wink
Posted By: luvless Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 07:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Gnosis
Brings to mind a modified old saying...

You can lead the WAS to logic but you can't make them think © 2009 Gnosis wink


Soooo True!!!!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 08:38 PM
Even in the midst of our tense mediation, my W did invite me to go to church with her and the kids on Christmas Eve. She has custody of the kids on Christmas Eve and Christmas morning, then I get them. Given the situation, I was assuming and planning we would do nothing together. Is there harm in going to church with them?
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 08:54 PM
I don't see a problem with that as long as the only motivation is to be with the kids.

I don't know if you want to rattle her chain a bit here... but if you do... ask her if you can bring someone with. If she asks who... say, "Never mind, its probably not a good idea. OK, see you Xmas eve."

Just sayin' wink
Posted By: Coach Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/17/09 09:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Gnosis
I don't see a problem with that as long as the only motivation is to be with the kids.

I don't know if you want to rattle her chain a bit here... but if you do... ask her if you can bring someone with. If she asks who... say, "Never mind, its probably not a good idea. OK, see you Xmas eve."

Just sayin' wink


Like it.

When I was in Flt School in the Air Force one of the instructors told us while we were Lts that everybody knew we were clueless and to take advantage of it. So when ever we would screw up on purpose he told us to blame a higher ranking officer then accept blame. "Major Nelson told us this was OK. (Pause....) Nevermind, you are correct sir, we should have known better."

Worked like a charm.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/18/09 03:15 AM
It's fun to think about yanking her like that, but I have to be honest, I'm awful at things like that. I would never be able to make it sound believable, and if I was off even the littlest bit, she would immediately call my bluff, and say "Sure! Bring whoever you like! Can't wait to meet them!" She's smart, and she knows me too well.

Something more manageable for me would be dressed a little smarter than just to go to church, wear good cologne, act as though I have somewhere else to go, as in keep looking at my watch, and then at some predetermined time say "I gotta get going, thanks for inviting me. See you tomorrow kids. Bye!" The make my exit acting like I'm in a hurry to get somewhere I very much want to be.

I think I could pull that off.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/18/09 02:21 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
It's fun to think about yanking her like that, but I have to be honest, I'm awful at things like that. I would never be able to make it sound believable,

And there my friend is an ideal 180 for you. Practice makes perfect.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
and if I was off even the littlest bit, she would immediately call my bluff, and say "Sure! Bring whoever you like! Can't wait to meet them!" She's smart, and she knows me too well.

All the more reason why you should do it. She knows you too well... start surprising her. If you want to push her out of her comfort zone you have to get out of yours too.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Something more manageable for me would be dressed a little smarter than just to go to church, wear good cologne, act as though I have somewhere else to go, as in keep looking at my watch, and then at some predetermined time say "I gotta get going, thanks for inviting me. See you tomorrow kids. Bye!" The make my exit acting like I'm in a hurry to get somewhere I very much want to be.

Sorry, but that sucks. The point is to spend time with the kids remember? By playing that game you end up punishing yourself and the kids. Also you send the following message to her: "See! He doesn't GAS about the kids. I was right! I should get full custody!"

Your actions speak louder than words. The watch ploy has its time and place, unfortunately this is not it. You're going there to give your kids the undivided attention they deserve. During this time you focus on them and ignore her.
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/18/09 07:37 PM
Well future, just because you ask doesnt mean that you necessarily have any intention of doing it. Your just asking a question, lol. And I think that if you just hesitated between the question itself, and your "second thought" about it, but not long enough for her to answer it would work. And really, you should have a half second or so, because, Im sure that even if it doesnt upset her, it will surprise her. And I think that it would rattle her, your other claims of doneness seem to have!

But your plan B is also an excellent one. Just done forget to keep an eye on that watch and dont get sucked in!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/19/09 08:17 PM
I don't know if this is good or bad, but it sure doesn't feel good. I was just driving with my son, who's 8, and he asked if Mommy and I were getting a divorce. I said "I don't know, S. Why are you asking that?" He replied "Mommy said you were getting divorced, and you would have to go to court."

Why is she telling our young son this stuff? And is she now planning on filing against me and taking me to court? I am losing my resolve. I want to go talk with her and ask her what's going on with her. I saw her this morning when I picked up the girls, and she was friendly, but very distant. She did say "You know, if you give mom money, I'm sure she'll take the kids out to get you a present" so she's concerned that I'll get nothing from the kids. We are barely speaking.

She is unbelievably thin. She's bordering on unhealthy at this point. I didn't think I'd ever see her this thin.

I'd appreciate any advice or opinions. Thanks.
Posted By: motherof3 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/19/09 08:44 PM
Wow. You certainly didn't expect that to come out of S8's mouth. You handled it well. I wouldn't read anything into what he said. Who knows at what point your W and son had this conversation. At this point I think this type of discussion needs to stay between you and W. Involving the kids at this point is harsh. It is my opinion that when the kids are told about the sitch, both you and W should be present.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/19/09 09:04 PM
He said she just told him that yesterday.

She has horrible instincts when it comes to how much to involve the kids in this stuff. And she does marriage and family counseling for a living! I think the fact that she's a "professional" gives her false confidence that she knows what she's doing, when her own emotions are clouding over everything.
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/19/09 09:08 PM
S could've heard W speaking over the phone to someone. Best to say as little as possible, but the truth.

I just don't know what you could tell W, if you speak to her. This was all her choice, and she's not liking the consequences and trying to blame you.

Perhaps, if you get to a point where you could ask her anything, then ask her if she can see the pain she has put the children through, with her A? How much destruction she caused to a family that could've been redeemed? She wanted time, but on her terms. Did she think that you were just going to roll over and let her kick you while you were already down? Her body knows her guilt, even if her mind justifies it. All you can and could do is react the best you can for yourself and the children in response to her betrayal (which was a betrayal to her children too because their security in a loving family has been compromised and they don't "just get over it"). You see this all over the site.

I surely feel for you because either way you go, you are damned. So, you may as well get the best for yourself and the kids. She is probably getting over the A, hence the loss of weight.

Just some thoughts.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/21/09 03:38 PM
This whole thing is really testing my resolve. I have such an impulse to go to my W to talk and try to get the anxiety level down. I know it's just fear driving me, so I'm trying to tolerate it. She is actually reaching out a little bit herself.

She called yesterday to ask me whether I got our youngest daughter a particular gift. She was awkward about it, as I've made it clear I don't want to involve her in my Christmas with the kids. She asked timidly and nicely "Can I just get a yes or no answer to whether you got D a XXXXXXXX?" I replied "W, it's not a secret what I got the kids for Christmas, I just haven't talked to you about it because doing Christmas alone with the kids is hard on me." She commiserated "I know." She asked "Do you want to know what I got them?" I said "Sure." She said "I'll send you an e-mail, it's too much to list here on the phone, ok?" I said ok.

In response I rattled off the stuff I got for them. Included in my list of gifts for the kids were sweatshirts for the local Div I college team, the one whose basketball games I've been taking the kids to see with my friends. She curiously asked "So do you have season tickets or something? You've been taking the kids to a lot of games." I said "No, I get the tickets from friends, or friends of friends. If someone's not going to go, they ask if I'd like to have the tickets. Cost me money in food, but the tickets are free." She said "That's great." I said "Yeah, the kids love it."

So she's still trying to figure out what that's all about. Doesn't sound fully detached, but she does put up a front that she is okay with everything. I guess she's DBing very well. I'm trying to remember what she said a few months ago, when I had that same impression, that she was totally fine. I commented about how great I thougt she was doing, and she looked shocked and said "I'm barely making it through each day." I know she's under enormous stress, with the holidays coming. Truthfully, so am I. I know a lot of the people here are. :-(
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/21/09 03:53 PM
I think its great that there are chinks starting to show in her armor.

Xmas is always an emotional period in DBing. It's tough, Future, we all know it. This is why I suggested you move before January. Think of this as your LRT to break that barrier she has built around herself. Being away from the kids this Xmas is going to hit her hard. Its going to be up to you to keep enforcing so that she can break and start thinking, "Is this ALL worth it? Am I doing the right thing? etc.

You've created a crisis. Keep stoking the fire. I pray for you that she WILL break.

Stay strong Bro.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/21/09 06:57 PM
Thanks Gnosis.

She had plenty of chinks in her armor in September and October. Now her armor seems back up to full strength, and she's telling the kids we're getting a divorce. This doesn't seem like good progress, but I know I was stuck in a stalemate before, so I had to do something.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/21/09 07:10 PM
My friend, you never know where her shield levels are. Don't be deceived and don't try to mind-read.

Yes, Sept & Oct had opportunities, don't beat yourself up. You were not mentally prepared at the time. Now you are. You had to do something and I think chose the best time to do it. Ironically, this is the best time of the year to play the crisis card.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/21/09 08:41 PM
I thought I played it well in October. Her shield was down, she said she liked how we were together now, and I did too. I knew she was torn up by the OM situation, but it looked like it was leaning my way. I stayed strong and maintained my self respect. I told her I wouldn't tolerate an open M and I was at a fork in the road. I thought that would cause a crisis and make her want to grab hold of me before I went down the other path, but she didn't. She kept stalling and stalling. I tried to cause crisis by then slowly increasing my distance from her, but that just made her feel I was abandoning her.

Is there some point where they break out of the incredibly self-absorbed state and can actually consider anything at all from someone else's point of view?
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/21/09 09:01 PM
Sadly Future the fastest catalyst for change is pain.

She's going to be pain this Xmas and New Year. Tough love dictates that you don't make it easier on her. It's counter-intuitive and sucks to serve it because it takes a lot out of yourself too.

Its not always successful. That's why I told you to ask her if you could bring someone to that thing of yours and then quickly backtrack. i.e. to instill the fear of loss in her, but not let her know that all is lost.

Get yourself geared up for a blowout New Year's party. Ensure that you are on your best behavior, don't drink too much, have fun... and ensure that wherever you go that someone will be there to report back to her. Party like it's the end of 2009... a new decade is ahead of you and you are FREEEEEEEE!!!!!

Let her feel the pain during this period and throw her a bone after the New Year to gauge her temperature. Think of her as a wild mustang that needs to be tamed.
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/22/09 12:38 PM
I'm new, but read through this post on Saturday. As I read, I wondered how long the DBing should go on. Future, you sound like a really great guy with an extremely selfish and immature wife. I wonder if you're grieving more what you wish you would have had, not actually what you had.

It doesn't seem right that she's got so much of your mind. Whatever time or attention she didn't get before, seems she is getting 15 fold now--but she doesn't even know it. So, its worthless and a waste of YOU. It seems to me that the GAL stuff/DBing stuff is designed to focus us on ourselves. If it works at getting the WAW or WAH back, then great. But if not, life is too short to spend so much time thinking/planning how someone else is going to react to you. You've got lots going for you. Sounds like you have a really good shot at doing things right/differently next time.

Best book I've read in a long time is How to be an Adult in Relationships (David Richo). One line struck me, and helped me to let go. "Does the partner of your distress say, I know what you need. I'm not going to give it to you. Don't leave me"? My H (soon to be XH) doesn't want me to let him go. He wants to keep me there for when he crashes. But I decided I want a mutually fulfilling and respectful relationship, not one where I'm erased and he's larger than life. Funny, since I made this decision internally, he is showing me lots more respect and is trying to be kind. But he hasn't done any of the work he needs to do to have a grown up relationship, so if/when he does crash, I don't think I will want him.

Don't know if that will help you, but seems like you've done everything you can for a really, really long time...I can't help but think that if you do go to a party on New Years, you should do it for YOU. And if you want to stay home and watch a movie by yourself, do it.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/22/09 07:55 PM
musclegal, welcome to the board, and thanks for commenting on my situation.

I've been thinking similarly to what you're saying and it has been weighing on me heavily as of late. I am grieving what I'd LIKE to have, not what I did have, because my M was not very good in many ways. My W does appear to have grown, but she is still selfish and immature, no doubt. She is more kind and patient now though, and her attitude toward life is better. Is there too much damage in our R to ever mend? I don't know. I was interested in putting my heart back on the line to find out, but now I'm not so sure.

Quote:

It doesn't seem right that she's got so much of your mind. Whatever time or attention she didn't get before, seems she is getting 15 fold now--but she doesn't even know it. So, its worthless and a waste of YOU.


Thanks for this. I agree completely.

Quote:

It seems to me that the GAL stuff/DBing stuff is designed to focus us on ourselves. If it works at getting the WAW or WAH back, then great. But if not, life is too short to spend so much time thinking/planning how someone else is going to react to you.


Again, I agree completely. I'm glad I put that line in my e-mail to my W about "life's too short for this nonsense", because it is. Going to that basketball game a couple weeks ago and having a blast with my kids and friends showed me I don't need my W to have a warm fun time with my kids. As I've said many times, it's really the kids that have me so dedicated to saving my M. Not that I don't want it, I do, but I know I'd be okay without it. Them, I'm not so sure.

Quote:

Best book I've read in a long time is How to be an Adult in Relationships (David Richo). One line struck me, and helped me to let go. "Does the partner of your distress say, I know what you need. I'm not going to give it to you. Don't leave me"? My H (soon to be XH) doesn't want me to let him go. He wants to keep me there for when he crashes. But I decided I want a mutually fulfilling and respectful relationship, not one where I'm erased and he's larger than life. Funny, since I made this decision internally, he is showing me lots more respect and is trying to be kind. But he hasn't done any of the work he needs to do to have a grown up relationship, so if/when he does crash, I don't think I will want him.


Funny, since my W is a professional marriage and family therapist, she KNOWS a lot of the right things to do. She says a lot of the right things, but she's just as suceptible to her emotions getting in the way as anyone else is. Sounds like by finding and holding your own self worth, your H is noticing your worth too. I too am finally realizing I'm worth more than what my W is giving me.

Quote:

Don't know if that will help you, but seems like you've done everything you can for a really, really long time...I can't help but think that if you do go to a party on New Years, you should do it for YOU. And if you want to stay home and watch a movie by yourself, do it.


My plans for New Year's will definitely be for me. I might give the impression here that I do things as some sort of strategy to see how my W will react, but I rarely do. I do try to guage her reaction though. I'm doing fine living my life for me now. I miss my old family life, and I miss my kids when I don't see them, which is over half the time, and I miss my W too. We really were good friends and coparents. I wanted more, but she saw no hope, gave up, and chose to leave.
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/22/09 11:00 PM
Well, she's a fool. You deserve better. She only saw no hope because she choose not to and because she was in a fantasy relationship with someone else.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/23/09 07:55 PM
Quote:

Well, she's a fool. You deserve better. She only saw no hope because she choose not to and because she was in a fantasy relationship with someone else.


Thanks musclegal.

I just got an e-mail from a very good very old friend of mine. I've known him since 6th grade. He knows me and he knows my W. I've kept him up to date on my situation this whole year. Here's what he just sent me:


I’ll tell ya <my name>, and I mean no disrespect to anyone when I say this. I’m too far removed from the situation to truly understand ANY of it but here goes. You need to go. Or rather, she needs to go. I know it’s terrible to say but it’s a fact. I don’t think I’ve ever known anyone who’s put as much time and effort into saving a marriage than you have over the last year or so that I’ve know you’ve had issues. And that doesn’t include the time and effort you put in PRIOR to me knowing there were issues. You’ve essentially re-invented YOURSELF not to mention re-created your life. You’ve reached out and reached out and reached out, to no avail. Little gains seem to be erased quickly and completely only to creep back in some time later. You’ve been INCREDIBLY strong through all of this (at least from my vantage point) and incredibly open and honest. But at the end of the day, it just doesn’t seem like there is any effort in return, or at least none for any sustained period of time. And if through all of this, there is still confusion about what she wants to do, I’m pretty sure that confusion will never go away. At some point it becomes clear that she’s just using you, and sh*tting all over you in the process. I hate to see it. I hate to SAY it. You’re too good a man to put up with this. Too good a Dad. Too good a friend. Too good. And you deserve better. And you will find better.

Time to go my friend.


The verdicts are coming in, and they appear unanimous. One year is enough.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/23/09 08:08 PM
Future, that letter your friend wrote you could have been written for me.

The difference is I've been putting up with it for less time and I haven't been re-inventing myself, just returning to my true nature and improving on the shortfalls.

I've been trying to get you to show a simulated letting go of her and sending the signals that you are truly done. There is a 50/50 chance the WAS wakes up when that happens. If you can't simulate it __________ (fill in your own blank)

Ironic as this may sound, I've been praying that she wakes up before its too late as in my case. Good luck my friend. Whatever happens, strive to keep the new and improved Future.

EDIT: Forgot to add my disclaimer... so here it is... PUIAP: posting under the influence and pain. Take the good in the message and trash the rest.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/23/09 08:33 PM
On a much lighter note, Santa got me a new electified acoustic guitar for Christmas! I couldn't wait so I had it out last night after the kids were asleep, and every song I played had so much new life I couldn't put it down! My playing has improved so much since this whole thing started.

When I was at the music store trying out guitars, a woman who was also looking started listening to me, and turned her head. She smiled and asked what the song was. I told her and she said it was peaceful. I just smiled back and agreed. She stood and watched me play for a bit before moving on. She was a little young for me, but seemed very kind, and had no rings on her fingers. She said she's doing open mic nights around town, as am I, so maybe I'll see her again. Life definitely can be good again!
Posted By: luvless Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/23/09 11:22 PM
hey future - i just bought my S15 a gibson explorer for Christmas..he's gonna be excited.

Music is the best stress relief!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/24/09 04:46 PM
Hi luvless-

Awesome! What made you pick the Explorer?

Playing guitar, and music in general, as been vital to my health and survival through all this.

Merry Christmas!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/24/09 05:53 PM
Quote:

Future, that letter your friend wrote you could have been written for me.

The difference is I've been putting up with it for less time and I haven't been re-inventing myself, just returning to my true nature and improving on the shortfalls.

I've been trying to get you to show a simulated letting go of her and sending the signals that you are truly done. There is a 50/50 chance the WAS wakes up when that happens. If you can't simulate it __________ (fill in your own blank)

Ironic as this may sound, I've been praying that she wakes up before its too late as in my case. Good luck my friend. Whatever happens, strive to keep the new and improved Future.


I hope things work out for you Gnosis. I'm not sure if I care if my W snaps out of it any more. I guess I do, but I'm starting to care more about ME than her or our M. I think that's healthy. I wish I could have faith that the kids will be okay.

I just don't get it. My W and I, we had our problems no doubt, but we had a lot of good things too. It's those things I'm grieving, and I'm just shocked to realize how little those things apparently meant to her.

I did purposely want to put her in crisis over Christmas. I don't think I've posted here what happened last Christmas. It was only ten days after I found out about her A and only a week before she was to move out. I dedicated myself to setting that aside and making Christmas wonderful for the kids. Christmas Eve was really nice, and after we got the kids to bed my W and I wrapped up all the presents and got them under the tree. We were listening to Christmas music. We do really work well together in situations like that.

We were all done with the presents and had the living room looking beautiful. Only the Christmas Tree lights were on, and they were reflecting off all the presents. It was quite a sight. The music was still on and I asked my W if she wanted to dance. She said yes, and we held each other and danced for several songs. We wouldn't look each other in the eye, as we both knew what was going on. The music was over and we stood side by side holding hands for the longest time. Eventually she said she wanted to go to bed, and she said she wanted to sleep with me, the first time in over two months. We slept in the bed together, but didn't really touch. There was so much conflicted emotion in that situation. When I woke up in the morning she was already gone. That was the last time we slept together.

I'm sure she remembers that, and I think it'll probably be weighing on her as she wraps presents by herself and gets them laid under her small artificial tree. Sharing of those times is exactly what she's giving up by doing this.

I also think she'll be contrasting who I was then, weak, broken, and needy, to who I am now, and how it was ME who decided to spend Christmas apart. She laid out some kooky plan where we would do Christmas as a family, and I would sleep on her couch so I could be there when the kids get up. Sorry, but the cake factory is closed. She wants to be apart, then we're apart.
Posted By: v1olin Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/24/09 06:13 PM
You are doing the right thing Future, have a Merry Christmas!
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/24/09 07:29 PM
Great Future! I think that your future is not "unknown". I think that your future will be good. I loved your friend's letter, and he is a good friend for writing you--its hard to do that. Finally, after months of hearing about my heroic efforts and my pain, my aunt FINALLY asked me, "Have you had ENOUGH yet?" It took me awhile longer to get that sense in my heart, that YES, I'd had enough, but it was really liberating to get to that point and to move on.

Life is too short to let someone take that much of you for so long. Keep playing the guitar. Remain cordial with your W for the sake of the kids--that's important--but keep yourself whole. Things will come to you if you just let her go.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/25/09 12:21 AM
v1olin, musclegal, Gnosis, luvless, BeingMe, bluerain, Puppy, CityGirl, motherof3, SMQ, and everyone else who has put a bit of themselves into my situation-

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/25/09 12:38 AM
Merry Christmas to you too, Future. May the next Christmas be a lot more of a resolved situation. Hey! One can hope, 'eh!? grin
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/28/09 05:28 AM
I was surprised how well Christmas went. I got the kids around 2pm on Christmas Day, and I had everything ready for them. My oldest daughter had some emotional difficulty with the transition, but after I helped her for a little while, she was fine.

The big surprise for me was that I was fine. I was so busy getting everything ready I didn't have a chance to get sad, and when the kids showed up I was excited for them to open their presents. I felt very little loss over the fact that my W wasn't here. It just felt different from Christmas's past, not necessarily worse.

I did give a small gift to my W. It was a spur of the moment thing. I was doing some extremely last minute shopping, and I got a small bag of treats for her (formerly our) dog, and I thought "Pretty bad to have a gift for the dog, but not for her", so I bought her a small box of chocolates. When she arrived with the kids, I gave her the two gifts. She had a look of shock that one was for her. I just smiled and said "One of Santa's elves must not have gotten your change of address form." She gave a little smile, and got back in her car. She is no longer coming into my house, and I no longer go into hers, which is fine with me.

Usually she waits inside the door while the kids come in, but the next day when I brought the kids back to her, she came out on the porch, absolutely dressed to KILL! She looked HOT! I made no comment about it, just said goodbye to the kids. My poor daughter was again upset and wouldn't even look at me. My W thanked me for the chocolates, I said your welcome, and I got back in my car and left. Friendly, but no special attention at all.

Today she brought the kids back over, as we are now back on our regular schedule. I had just gone running on this beautiful day, and I was sitting on my front porch playing guitar when she showed up. She came up on the porch to pick up some school pictures, and while I was giving them to her, I noticed she was absolutely doused with the perfume I like so much. I made no mention of it, gave her the pics, and said goodbye.

Don't know if she's doing those things to get my attention, or to try to break my resolve, but I'm not really playing a game anymore. I'm legitimately not interested in talking with her or showing her any attention. I finally feel empowered and in control of my own life. Great stuff!
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/28/09 06:20 AM
Quote:
I finally feel empowered and in control of my own life. Great stuff!

Awesome! grin
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/28/09 12:30 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
she came out on the porch, absolutely dressed to KILL! She looked HOT!

She's read Sandi's list. LOL.

Happy to hear your xmas 'rocked'
Santa must be empowering mid-life-crises this year
Les Paul Wine Red Studio
Woo Hoo.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/28/09 01:35 PM
I am so glad you had a nice holiday.

The day I truly felt like I didn't care about the outcome with my H was honestly one of the best days of my life. Like you, I finally grew tired of the BS, the games, the lies, the manipulation and the cruelty.

There were many events leading up to "my day" but on that particular day nothing happened other than feeling "it".

Sometimes I wish I knew why the feelings of just not being concerned about it anymore came to me but they did. I finally felt in control of me and my own life as ME.

I almost felt as if I wanted nothing more than my H to be part of my past and I was finally ready to have MY future.

It took me a long time to get to that point but I wouldn't change that day for all the money in the world.

I am glad you reached that point. Happy New Year!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/28/09 04:19 PM
Quote:

Santa must be empowering mid-life-crises this year
Les Paul Wine Red Studio
Woo Hoo.


Sweet! I've never had a Les Paul. Was always a Fender guy, but I do love that Les Paul sound through a Marshall amp. That sound is the foundation for a whole generation of rock. Whenever I've tried out a Les Paul I've been amazed how heavy they are. I guess us Fender guys are wimps!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/28/09 04:28 PM
Quote:

I am so glad you had a nice holiday.

The day I truly felt like I didn't care about the outcome with my H was honestly one of the best days of my life. Like you, I finally grew tired of the BS, the games, the lies, the manipulation and the cruelty.

There were many events leading up to "my day" but on that particular day nothing happened other than feeling "it".

Sometimes I wish I knew why the feelings of just not being concerned about it anymore came to me but they did. I finally felt in control of me and my own life as ME.

I almost felt as if I wanted nothing more than my H to be part of my past and I was finally ready to have MY future.

It took me a long time to get to that point but I wouldn't change that day for all the money in the world.

I am glad you reached that point. Happy New Year!


Thanks CityGirl. It wasn't really a day or moment for me, but kind of a progression over the last month. I've been noticing more and more how good I feel when I realize I don't have to deal with my W to make decisions. My single life continues to progress and I've had many good times now that don't include her.

I still get sad when I think about our kids, but I've accepted that some things are out of my control. I have realized that the best thing I can do for them now is to be happy, because when I'm happy, I am at my best as a father. And, I no longer feel bad about someday bringing another woman into their life as a step mother. I even feel some optimism that perhaps my son will get a brother out of the deal.
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/29/09 07:16 PM
Excellent Future!! Hooray! I had a harder time because my H and I just separated physically in November and his parents came and stayed with ME and the kids--its a tradition and the kids have just had too much to deal with in the last few months (learning that there is no Santa Claus, their parents getting divorced, etc). He was over here every day, all day. It was very weird but I said that it would be alright as long as we did NOT TALK about my relationship with H or his relationship with OW, and it was alright with those rules. My in-laws just left and so did he, and now I can breath a sigh of relief.

It was a real exercise in being a grown up, especially since my H has treated me like sh*& for the past year...but its good practice for the kids. I think that we owe it to our kids to be strong and healthy and happy--and to get along, even though it might be difficult!!! Sounds like now you are doing EVERYTHING you can to be healthy and happy for YOU. And that means for THEM too (if you aren't happy, they think they have to take care of you, I think!). EXCELLENT JOB!!!!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/30/09 07:03 PM
musclegal-

Thanks for the encouragement. Very hard to deal with those traditions after a separation. I totally understand the situation you found yourself in. How do you see next Christmas being handled?

Quote:

I think that we owe it to our kids to be strong and healthy and happy--and to get along, even though it might be difficult!!!


Yes, we do. And, yes, it is very difficult, isn't it?!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/30/09 07:33 PM
W just came over to pick up the kids. After the kids ran out to the car I told my W our son said something to me that concerns me and that we need to talk about it. She asked what it was. I said I can't talk about it now. She insisted I tell her at least what it was about so she could prepare to talk. I told her that our son was worried that we were going to court.

She said "Here's what happened. <Son> listened in on the upstairs phone on a conversation I had with <her friend>. It was the same day as our mediation, and I was very angry with you. He heard everything I said. I did damage control the best I could. I reassured him we're not going to court. That's really all I have to say about it." Then she said with an angry defiant tone "I've made sure the kids know we don't love each other any more" and she walked away and got in her car.

A few minutes later I called her cell phone and said "You can tell the kids how you feel about things, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't speak for me." She actually sounded sorry and said "I realized after I left how that sounded. I didn't speak for you. I only told them my side of things. You absolutely should tell them your side if you want." She sounded so much softer, and there was a pause while she lingered on the phone. I got the impression she was waiting for me to say something else. I just said "Ok thanks, Goodbye." She said goodbye and we hung up.

I'd be lying if I said it didn't hurt a little when she said we didn't love each other anymore, but I guess that's why she said it.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/30/09 07:46 PM
I think I should call my W and insist she tell me everything our son overheard so I can help do damage control. I can just imagine the spew the poor boy heard. No wonder he's been off lately.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/30/09 07:50 PM
no. future she is messing with you.

you have a history of backing down and she knows that.

she has to do the backing down. go play your fender.

BTW. after 2 weeks i still love my reverend flatroc. dont think the les paul is going to win my heart.
Posted By: robx Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/30/09 07:56 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
W just came over to pick up the kids. After the kids ran out to the car I told my W our son said something to me that concerns me and that we need to talk about it. She asked what it was. I said I can't talk about it now. She insisted I tell her at least what it was about so she could prepare to talk. I told her that our son was worried that we were going to court.

She said "Here's what happened. <Son> listened in on the upstairs phone on a conversation I had with <her friend>. It was the same day as our mediation, and I was very angry with you. He heard everything I said. I did damage control the best I could. I reassured him we're not going to court. That's really all I have to say about it." Then she said with an angry defiant tone "I've made sure the kids know we don't love each other any more" and she walked away and got in her car.

A few minutes later I called her cell phone and said "You can tell the kids how you feel about things, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't speak for me." She actually sounded sorry and said "I realized after I left how that sounded. I didn't speak for you. I only told them my side of things. You absolutely should tell them your side if you want." She sounded so much softer, and there was a pause while she lingered on the phone. I got the impression she was waiting for me to say something else. I just said "Ok thanks, Goodbye." She said goodbye and we hung up.

I'd be lying if I said it didn't hurt a little when she said we didn't love each other anymore, but I guess that's why she said it.


"Then she said with an angry defiant tone "I've made sure the kids know we don't love each other any more" and she walked away and got in her car."

If she was indifferent I would be worried,
if she didn't care I would be worried,
but someone who says that in anger still cares,
love & hate aren't opposite emotions, they're actually polar extremes of the same feeling (I read that somewhere don't quote me), love/hate and indifference are opposites. Indifference meaning I don't care enough to feel love or hate about you.

You did right about telling her not to speak for you,
no one should speak for you except for you.
Posted By: Super Girl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/30/09 08:11 PM
Sounds like you've been reading T-Dub, Robx. LOL
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/30/09 08:38 PM
Quote:

no. future she is messing with you.

you have a history of backing down and she knows that.

she has to do the backing down. go play your fender.

BTW. after 2 weeks i still love my reverend flatroc. dont think the les paul is going to win my heart.


She definitely gave me the impression she wanted to hurt me by saying that. I got the distinct feeling of emotional manipulation.

My fender (strat) is sitting in its case. I'm now smitten with my new Takamine acoustic. It's awesome!

I a bit of a guitar buff, but I had never heard of a Reverend Flatroc. I just checked it out on the web. Very cool!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/30/09 08:52 PM
Quote:

If she was indifferent I would be worried,
if she didn't care I would be worried,
but someone who says that in anger still cares,
love & hate aren't opposite emotions, they're actually polar extremes of the same feeling (I read that somewhere don't quote me), love/hate and indifference are opposites. Indifference meaning I don't care enough to feel love or hate about you.


Hmmm... She did try to say it as plainly as possible, but like I said, it did have a bit of a "zing" to it, like she was trying to hurt me. There was no other reason to say it, and certainly not like that.

I agree 100% that love and hate are extremes of the same feeling.

And I have read T-Dub! LOL!
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/31/09 02:48 AM
You should check out Yamaki. Its the best guitar no ones ever heard of... if you can still find them! Seriously, even the little ones have a very rich sound.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/31/09 04:12 PM
I hadn't heard of Yamaki either, so I checked them out on the web too. Wow, two guitar brands I've never heard of in two days. I thought I was a guitar buff, I guess not!

Sounds like these Yamaki's have quite a following, due to their great sound. Not sure when they stopped being made, apparently quite a while ago, but people who have Yamaki's swear by them. Interesting.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 12/31/09 08:27 PM
Here's the situation. I have the kids over New Year's. We were all invited to a big overnight party, and were looking forward to going. Unfortunately my youngest daughter came down with something and can't go. My W offered to keep her tonight so I can take the other kids to the party. It was more selfish than generous, as she was sad about the thought of spending New Year's without any of her kids. She was planning on going to a friend's party, but she said she'd bag that and stay home with our daughter. As usual, it was slightly manipulative, as she wanted me to feel like she was the more giving parent, sacrificing for our daughter. I considered taking all three kids tonight, not going to the party, and having a fun night with just us at my house, but in the end I thought NO WAY! If my W wants to offer to take our sick daughter tonight, that's fine, I will go with our other two kids to the party and have a blast. If she wants to think that makes her the better parent, let her.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/01/10 12:55 AM
I picked up my two older kids a while ago, and in standard futureunknown nice guy fashion, I made a gesture of good will by giving my W a bottle of champagne and saying "Happy New Year!" I made nothing more of it, and immediately started getting the kids ready to go. She said "H, thank you!" Then she playfully said "This is my babysitting fee!"

Why do I do these things? Who knows, but it felt good to do. It has no bearing on my stance regarding our marriage, and I don't feel it in any way implied I was "backing down". She'll know that in a few days when I start sending more information to get our legal separation formalized.

The kids and I will be leaving for the party in a few minutes. Should be a great time.

Happy New Year!
Posted By: ClingingToHope Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/01/10 12:58 AM
I'm with you. I sent W a text at 5 p.m. telling her to say Happy New Year to the girls for me. No response. Deep down I was hoping for something similar to Christmas when she surprised me by inviting me over.
Posted By: bluerain Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/01/10 02:16 AM
Happy New Year Future! I hope that you have a great time with the kids! Who cares WHY she wanted to stay home with D, maybe it was manipulative. But, your right, you cant worry about exactly why when you have the chance to have a blast with the other kiddos!

I have heard that there was some kind of Yamaki Vs. Yamaha debacle, and obviously Yamaki lost, dont know if its true. They are really nice guitars though. And whats still nice about them, if you have a good luthier, even one thats a little beaten up can be fixed and will outplay most other guitars... I guess Im a fan smile
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 03:22 PM
Things haven't exactly worked out the way I wanted.

I spoke with my W a couple days ago, and she said my behavior has convinced her once and for all that she's done with me. She wants to get the separation done, and this morning she gave me a proposal which includes her taking more care of the kids, getting more money from me, and here's the kicker, she says she's going to be spending time abroad, and she's going to take the kids with her, for up to 3 weeks at a time. She is not bluffing. I think when I "dumped" her, she went running back to OM, and is now convinced he is where her future lies.

I don't know if my actions caused this, or merely exposed what she wanted all along, but I am a wreck.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 03:25 PM
Future,

This is all standard walkaway/wayward SCRIPT. The "NOW YOU'VE BLOWN ANY CHANCE WE HAD!!!!" is heard in probably 90-95% of everyone's sitches when they take a strong stand.

Your response should be a simple "I'm really sorry you feel that way. I will discuss this all with my attorney, and we'll have to let them work everything out."

Everything she says she wants -- more custody, more child support, longer (and distant) custody -- will have to be worked out legally. YOU HAVE RIGHTS. 3 weeks at a time, abroad, ain't gonna happen, unless you have Soupy Sales as your atty (and I'm pretty sure he's dead).

Puppy
Posted By: v1olin Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 03:28 PM
I agree with Puppy! It is time to play hardball with the legal side! If you dont think your lawyer is tough enough find one that is! You can do this!
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 03:33 PM
Prior to this was the plan mediation? I would calmly let your W know due to her new proposed plan you no longer will be participating in mediation and any future proposals should be handled between the attnys.

Her asking for more money to support her overseas jaunts WITH your children is unacceptable.

I can relate to being a wreck after receiving a proposal that is nothing short of ridiculous. While it is more costly at this juncture you need a very skilled attny to fight for your rights as reasoning with her will not be productive.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 03:35 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


I don't know if my actions caused this, or merely exposed what she wanted all along . . .


Future,

When you first came to us (at least your first post on THIS very long thread), you characterized your marriage as a "mess," and your wife was still carrying on what you described as "a torrid affair." She traveled at least 3 times to go see him, was openly flaunting her affair, and showed NO remorse for her actions.

She only became nicer toward you because you were dutifully following her exit plan. Once you stood up for yourself, and refused to share her with another man, the niceness disappeared . . . am I right?

This is a very common mistake that betrayed spouses make. They misdiagnose their wayward spouse's "niceness" as an indication that they are on the right path, rather than measuring it by things like:

- have they ended their contact with the OM/OW?

- are they doing The Right Things in their marriage and in their family?

- are they now agreeing to things like counseling (MC and/or IC), Retrouvaille, etc., whereas before they refused to?

- are they making demonstrable moves back toward the marriage and the family?

And then when we spot naivete, and advocate a stronger stance (including exposing the affair, getting legally and financially protected, not moving out of your own home/bedroom/bed, etc.), the wayward spouse gets angry, and spews "NOW YOU'VE BLOWN ANY CHANCE YOU HAD!"

. . . and the betrayed spouse things that "Well, now I've made a big mistake. My wife WAS being 'nice' to me, and now she's not, and so I must have really blown it."

I know her words sting, but she's never really agreed to your boundary ("I won't live in an open marriage") . . . has she?

Puppy
Posted By: v1olin Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 03:38 PM
She is hoping that you will beg her to stay so that she can have the chance to turn you down...yet again. Dont do it! Hold your ground!
Posted By: soleil Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 03:48 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown

I spoke with my W a couple days ago, and she said my behavior has convinced her once and for all that she's done with me.


You already know that's a cop out. Your behavior didn't push her in which way. She is responsible for the choices that she makes, just as you are.

If she wants the separation, tell her that's fine and make it as amicable as possible. It will seriously mess with her head. Trust me.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 04:14 PM
Future,

I agree with what the others have told you.

She's rattling her saber to punish you. Previously on FutureUnknown (channel 258)

WAW: I want to hold off mediation until Jan
FUN: No! Not this time! I won't bend!
In mediation... FUN sticks up for himself.

WAW thinks... SH!T That SOB won't toe the line anymore. That A$$HOLE!!! I'm gonna rip him a new one! I'm gonna kick him where it hurts. Where can I do that? What are his fear? YEAH!!

So my friend... this is called spew... you've gotten the hissy fit... just not the way you expected it.

i.e. You've been busy shredding apart her "wonderful fantasy" of being able to do whatever she wants. Now she wants to do the same to you.

It's called Emotional Blackmail!!! Get back in line or else... See?

Hold the line!
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 04:24 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Things haven't exactly worked out the way I wanted.

Um... haven't heard the fat lady farting yet...

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
she said my behavior has convinced her once and for all that she's done with me.

BS on the behavior. She's twisting this around to guilt you for her decisions. This is why she wanted to delay and have "a peaceful holiday" before. It's called blowing smoke up your a$$.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She wants to get the separation done, and this morning she gave me a proposal which includes her taking more care of the kids, getting more money from me,

Yeah, right... talk to my lawyer.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
and here's the kicker, she says she's going to be spending time abroad, and she's going to take the kids with her, for up to 3 weeks at a time.

Over your dead body! If I'm mistaken you can put in legal papers to prevent her from doing this. Your excuse: "You're afraid she won't come back"... i.e. if she does this she faces charges of kidnapping. Look this up. Speak to your L.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She is not bluffing.

Neither are you!

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I think when I "dumped" her, she went running back to OM, and is now convinced he is where her future lies.

BULLSHIRT!! The OM has always been there... he never left her thoughts. If I'm not mistaken, isn't this around the same "mating season" when she went over there the last time?

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I don't know if my actions caused this, or merely exposed what she wanted all along,

Probably what she was going for all along.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
but I am a wreck.

Words are usually empty, and I'm not belittling the anguish you feel, but pull yourself together. You can handle it.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 04:52 PM

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She wants to get the separation done, and this morning she gave me a proposal which includes her taking more care of the kids, getting more money from me,


. . .


[/quote]
BULLSHIRT!! The OM has always been there... he never left her thoughts. If I'm not mistaken, isn't this around the same "mating season" when she went over there the last time?[/quote]

He's always been there indeed. Her "proposal" seems pretty well-thought-out, doesn't it Future? I wonder how long she (and, no doubt, OM) have been working on it? Sure seemed like it was at-the-ready all of a sudden, hmmmm?? confused mad

Puppy
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 05:20 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Things haven't exactly worked out the way I wanted.

I spoke with my W a couple days ago, and she said my behavior has convinced her once and for all that she's done with me. She wants to get the separation done, and this morning she gave me a proposal which includes her taking more care of the kids, getting more money from me, and here's the kicker, she says she's going to be spending time abroad, and she's going to take the kids with her, for up to 3 weeks at a time. She is not bluffing. I think when I "dumped" her, she went running back to OM, and is now convinced he is where her future lies.

I don't know if my actions caused this, or merely exposed what she wanted all along, but I am a wreck.



this is refered to as deja-poo.

which leads me to re-iterate the obvious, you are flip-flopping.
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 06:39 PM
Your actions have done nothing but protect your interests. So, don't whimp out now --- this is just the first part of the negotiation, she's aiming high. Just decide that the kids leaving the country is non-negotiable. They don't go anywhere without the permission of both of you. Works both ways. Your money is not funding little soiree's to visit her OM. In fact, your offer should go lower than it was before. Only child support when they are with her, no spouse support. You have the children during the week, and every other weekend. If she is out of the country, the child support stops, since she will be living with someone else, one assumes.

I don't think your WAW ever 'left' OM. This has been one big game to get as much as she can from you so she can be with OM. Look how the OM acts --- he is in another country, and she is running after him. He will not come to her. She will even take her kids to him, if she can get away with it. There is your cue --- make her come to you. If you have any chance at all in getting your family back together, IMHO, it's going to be to be tougher than OM. Give her as little as you can possible, and get as much custody as you can. BTW, is the country where OM resides a 'safe' country, or one that has high crime, and unstable government? If so, these can all be pointed out to the mediator/legal counsel.

Did she make this statement in front of witnesses? Like the mediator? Anyway, now you know what her plan is, what her thoughts are. She has no idea what you are going to do. So, my advice would be to go to the extreme --- that is:
NC except with swopping children (and I would say get a third party for this, if possible),
all verbal (including this) and written negotiations by your WAW should be handed to your mediator and lawyer (although, she didn't really couch this in a negotiation tone, but more like a declaration),
note my idea above on what you should offer,
get legal separation and custody done as quickly as possible.

Your WAS has had this on her mind for a long, long time while you were flapping in the wind, trying to find a way to get her back. You have to understand, she is NOT coming back. She is gone. She has no intention of coming back (probably why she never comes into the house). Don't let her take everything you have worked for, your kids, and dignity, with her and hand it on a platter to OM. Time to suit up, and fight for your kids, if nothing else. In the meantime, continue with the GAL, stay calm, keep a positive attitude, be not submissive. I know how hard this must be for you, but think about your children now. You cannot be a wreck at a time like this. They need you more than ever now.

Sorry so long, but I feel you need to shake yourself out of your despondency and get to work. Take control, get tough, go dark and get a lawyer. Be done with her, so that you can move on.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 06:56 PM
Thanks for all the responses. I am doing better now, but wow, I guess I'm not as strong as I thought. This really hit me hard.


Quote:

She only became nicer toward you because you were dutifully following her exit plan. Once you stood up for yourself, and refused to share her with another man, the niceness disappeared . . . am I right?


Her niceness disappeared when I dumped her. I was never quite dutifully following her exit plan. I have been essentially dictating all along what I would and wouldn't agree to regarding our legal separation, but I've also been fairly obvious that I very much wanted her back. She was mostly cooperating with my terms in mediation, as she just wanted to get it over with. I seem to have pushed too far though, and now she's saying "F*CK IT, if he wants to be an a**hole, I can be one too". I don't think she in any way sees my being tough in mediation as a way of fighting for her or my M. She sees it as me being a bully and trying to punish her for betraying me.

Quote:

This is a very common mistake that betrayed spouses make. They misdiagnose their wayward spouse's "niceness" as an indication that they are on the right path, rather than measuring it by things like:

- have they ended their contact with the OM/OW?

- are they doing The Right Things in their marriage and in their family?

- are they now agreeing to things like counseling (MC and/or IC), Retrouvaille, etc., whereas before they refused to?

- are they making demonstrable moves back toward the marriage and the family?

And then when we spot naivete, and advocate a stronger stance (including exposing the affair, getting legally and financially protected, not moving out of your own home/bedroom/bed, etc.), the wayward spouse gets angry, and spews "NOW YOU'VE BLOWN ANY CHANCE YOU HAD!"

. . . and the betrayed spouse things that "Well, now I've made a big mistake. My wife WAS being 'nice' to me, and now she's not, and so I must have really blown it."


Yeah, I was mistaking her niceness as indication she wanted to reconcile with me, although it was more her continued reaching out to me that did it. Her texts and calls out of nowhere, her inviting me to do things with her and the kids, the times she seemed to genuinely enjoy being with me.

But no, she didn't do any of the things you listed, except I believe she did break off contact with OM, although she gave me no way to verify that. She did also want to read the book "Love Without Hurt" when I mentioned how much it meant to me. Her mother told me her A was over, although she said it was OM who ended it. When I talked with my W a few days ago, she said the reason she was avoiding me was that she is broken hearted, and she didn't think it was fair for her to lean on me when she was in that state. She said she had regained some feelings for me, but it wasn't very strong, and that I needed to be much more patient and let her go through her grieving without pushing her. She said once I bullied her again in mediation, she said that was it, her feelings for me are gone, and she's done. I agree, that's probably BS. She wouldn't be acting quite as vengeful as she is if her feelings were truly gone.

I am feeling like I was actually on the right track, but that I made a wrong move, and now I've just done more damage.

Quote:

I know her words sting, but she's never really agreed to your boundary ("I won't live in an open marriage") . . . has she?


Yes, her words do sting. I'm shocked at my reaction to her proposal. She never really did agree to my boundary. She said she was done with OM, and that she wasn't INTERESTED in dating anyone else. That's not nearly the same thing as saying she would remain faithful to our M, is it?

I do believe she was considering returning to our M, but only if she could do it on her terms, and without really being held accountable for her A. She said I haven't owned my part in all this, which is complete BS. I have poured my heart out to her owning my failures. She said I will never forgive her for what she's done, and I'll hold it over her forever. She said she aplogized (she did?), but that it wasn't enough for me, nothing ever will be.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 07:00 PM
Quote:

I agree with what the others have told you.

She's rattling her saber to punish you. Previously on FutureUnknown (channel 258)

WAW: I want to hold off mediation until Jan
FUN: No! Not this time! I won't bend!
In mediation... FUN sticks up for himself.

WAW thinks... SH!T That SOB won't toe the line anymore. That A$$HOLE!!! I'm gonna rip him a new one! I'm gonna kick him where it hurts. Where can I do that? What are his fear? YEAH!!

So my friend... this is called spew... you've gotten the hissy fit... just not the way you expected it.

i.e. You've been busy shredding apart her "wonderful fantasy" of being able to do whatever she wants. Now she wants to do the same to you.

It's called Emotional Blackmail!!! Get back in line or else... See?

Hold the line!


Gnosis, that sounds exactly right. She is trying to punish me. She knew what to say to hurt me, and it worked.

Her "proposal" also says she gets the kids every Christmas Eve and morning, so they have "stability". Wow.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 07:04 PM
Quote:

this is refered to as deja-poo.

which leads me to re-iterate the obvious, you are flip-flopping.


Interesting. I've said all along this is a LRT to try to get her to turn around, but I've also noticed lately how motivated and excited I'm getting to date other women. I've realized I'm free and can do what I want.

I also wonder if my W's "proposal" wasn't motivated by her hearing from the kids about this other woman in my life. During our talk she did ask me "Has your situation changed?" At this point I think she wanted to know that as legal ammunition to use against me.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 07:48 PM
Quote:

Your actions have done nothing but protect your interests. So, don't whimp out now --- this is just the first part of the negotiation, she's aiming high. Just decide that the kids leaving the country is non-negotiable. They don't go anywhere without the permission of both of you. Works both ways. Your money is not funding little soiree's to visit her OM. In fact, your offer should go lower than it was before. Only child support when they are with her, no spouse support. You have the children during the week, and every other weekend. If she is out of the country, the child support stops, since she will be living with someone else, one assumes.


The kids leaving the country is non-negotiable. I'll take that one to the highest court in the land. Her profession conveniently offers some training in the city that OM lives in. She is portraying that she is going there for that training, and to give the kids valuable exposure to other cultures. I guess the fact that OM lives there is just a fortunate coincidence.

Quote:

I don't think your WAW ever 'left' OM. This has been one big game to get as much as she can from you so she can be with OM. Look how the OM acts --- he is in another country, and she is running after him. He will not come to her. She will even take her kids to him, if she can get away with it. There is your cue --- make her come to you. If you have any chance at all in getting your family back together, IMHO, it's going to be to be tougher than OM. Give her as little as you can possible, and get as much custody as you can. BTW, is the country where OM resides a 'safe' country, or one that has high crime, and unstable government? If so, these can all be pointed out to the mediator/legal counsel.


I'm not sure exactly what happened with OM, but I agree. The fact that he's so inaccessible is making him all the more attractive to her. It just seems so bloody counter intuitive to cut off from her to make her want to come back. I've taken whatever chances I can get to bank up good times and good memories with her. That appears to be futile, although I'm perplexed as to why. The country OM lives in is a safe country, and is part of the Haig Convention, but that hardly helped in the Brazil situation, did it?

Quote:

Did she make this statement in front of witnesses? Like the mediator? Anyway, now you know what her plan is, what her thoughts are. She has no idea what you are going to do. So, my advice would be to go to the extreme --- that is:
NC except with swopping children (and I would say get a third party for this, if possible),
all verbal (including this) and written negotiations by your WAW should be handed to your mediator and lawyer (although, she didn't really couch this in a negotiation tone, but more like a declaration),
note my idea above on what you should offer,
get legal separation and custody done as quickly as possible.


Her statement about taking the kids abroad is in a proposal document she handed me this morning. She wants to meet Friday evening to discuss it. I said I would, but that was before I read it.

Quote:

Your WAS has had this on her mind for a long, long time while you were flapping in the wind, trying to find a way to get her back. You have to understand, she is NOT coming back. She is gone. She has no intention of coming back (probably why she never comes into the house). Don't let her take everything you have worked for, your kids, and dignity, with her and hand it on a platter to OM. Time to suit up, and fight for your kids, if nothing else. In the meantime, continue with the GAL, stay calm, keep a positive attitude, be not submissive. I know how hard this must be for you, but think about your children now. You cannot be a wreck at a time like this. They need you more than ever now.


She has had this on her mind for a long time. She mentioned it back last spring after one of her trips to see OM, and it resulted in a HUGE fight between us. I told her the kids were NEVER going to leave this country, and she said "That's only because your jealous! Why else would you deny them that wonderful experience?" I said "You don't want me telling them why, I promise you, you really don't."

I don't think she is coming back. I will fight for my kids as much as I have to. I will remain calm and strong.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/06/10 07:56 PM
You sound somehow calmer, and stronger, already.

Puppy
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 01:50 AM
Future, hang in there. Be strong. Tell yourself that W has gotten way too much of you already and she doesn't get ANY MORE. She just doesn't get any more of you. Stay calm, don't give her any more of your emotions, your brain OR your money than you have to. It's not a fight. It's just not giving any more. Period. You need YOU for yourself and for your kids.

It is so hard to process grief when the "dead" person is in your face, and messing with your mind as though you were the one who did the betraying. At a certain point, you've got to turn it over to the lawyers, have them fight for you, and focus on your own future. Besides, most of the legal stuff is already decided under the law. Your particular situation or your emotions don't change the outcome of what a judge will decide. Just ask the lawyer what the judge is likely to do, and you'll know what to fight and what not to fight. I'm finding there isn't a lot of wiggleroom, at least where I live.

Future, you've got a good future. You've had enough trauma already. Take some deep breaths and get through the divorce as fast as you can. That's what my very smart family is telling me, and I'm trying to follow their suggestions! Just get through it, and when you are out the other side, you are going to be fine. You've learned a lot. This isn't the last relationship for you. If you let her go, you will have happiness again and you can do things differently. If you keep hanging on, you are just spinning in a circle.

Oh, and for the discussions about what she wants. That's why you are paying a mediator. DON'T meet with her to talk about it on Friday. That will get you nowhere. All talks about settlements and custody need to go through the mediator. That's their job. To mediate so you don't have to fight in a restaurant or yell on the telephone or lose sleep. With the mediator, just calmly state your position, without escalating your emotions, and ask the mediator what the law says and how a judge would rule on it. They will know.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 03:04 PM
Future - I think you and I live in the same state IIRC.

My attny was also a certified mediator. Obviously he cannot rep a client and also mediate but I did learn SO much as his skill set crosses over even though he was *my* attny.

Anyhow, my attny will not mediate between a couple unless BOTH parties are repped by individual counsel. So, he would meet with the couple as a mediator and help the couple reach a settlement. Then both spouses would take the proposed settlement to their legal counsel for review. He will also not mediate with a couple if one spouse waives their rights to counsel and they use one attny. In this state it is suicide but I think you know that.

The second I read your W's proposal I thought about the Brazil case as well. If your W wants the children to be exposed to other cultures tell her to take them to a museum!

The "formula" my attny helped me establish was as follows:

1. What I am 110% unwilling under any circumstance to bend on

2. What I might possibly bend on if the counter offer is appropriate

3. Things I am willing to bend on (which essentially were not important to me and merely created leverage and a false sense of goodwill with my H)

I am so sorry you have to deal with all of this. I know it is so easy to say "do this" and "don't do that" but I wish I would have followed my attnys plan from the get go (NOT talking to H). Especially if opposing counsel does not practice law in a "clean" way. And sadly, in this state most WAS who are in an affair and have lots at stake (and I don't mean money) will retain the "snake" attny as they are in the wrong and unlike most states, our state *is* a "fault" state.

I am not sure how to give you my contact info but if you ever need any moral support as you navigate through this mess of a family court system find me on the boards. I can really relate to it being a very difficult journey.

Stay strong and keep in mind your W is *really* missing out!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 03:51 PM
Quote:

Future, hang in there. Be strong. Tell yourself that W has gotten way too much of you already and she doesn't get ANY MORE. She just doesn't get any more of you. Stay calm, don't give her any more of your emotions, your brain OR your money than you have to. It's not a fight. It's just not giving any more. Period. You need YOU for yourself and for your kids.


Hi musclegal-

That's the thing that is so hard for me. If you go back and read the first page of this thread, you'll see my big failing in my marriage was that I didn't give ENOUGH of myself. That's why I'm so torn about cutting her off now. She deserved more of me when we were married.

Quote:

It is so hard to process grief when the "dead" person is in your face, and messing with your mind as though you were the one who did the betraying. At a certain point, you've got to turn it over to the lawyers, have them fight for you, and focus on your own future. Besides, most of the legal stuff is already decided under the law. Your particular situation or your emotions don't change the outcome of what a judge will decide. Just ask the lawyer what the judge is likely to do, and you'll know what to fight and what not to fight. I'm finding there isn't a lot of wiggleroom, at least where I live.


You are so right. I would be practically healed by now if I could have just gone away from my W and not seen her at all for the past year. This constant contact is brutal. Right now we're doing mediation, so it's all on us, no lawyers. If I go the route of lawyers, my cost to do this would go up tenfold. I just have to detach my emotions, and treat this as a business transaction.

Quote:

Future, you've got a good future. You've had enough trauma already. Take some deep breaths and get through the divorce as fast as you can. That's what my very smart family is telling me, and I'm trying to follow their suggestions! Just get through it, and when you are out the other side, you are going to be fine. You've learned a lot. This isn't the last relationship for you. If you let her go, you will have happiness again and you can do things differently. If you keep hanging on, you are just spinning in a circle.


Thanks. I am very traumatized by all this, and I probably won't be healed enough for a new relationship for a while yet. I have definitely learned a lot. Even with my friends I am quite a different person, and I definitely am with my kids. We were playing a Wii dancing game a couple days ago, and it was a blast. Sadly, a couple years ago, you couldn't have dragged me off the sofa to do that. The kids are showing me so much affection and happiness. They've sadly begun to just accept their two lives, and appear to be making the best of it.

Quote:

Oh, and for the discussions about what she wants. That's why you are paying a mediator. DON'T meet with her to talk about it on Friday. That will get you nowhere. All talks about settlements and custody need to go through the mediator. That's their job. To mediate so you don't have to fight in a restaurant or yell on the telephone or lose sleep. With the mediator, just calmly state your position, without escalating your emotions, and ask the mediator what the law says and how a judge would rule on it. They will know.


I hear you, but I think I can get through our meeting Friday without getting emotionally triggered or trapped. Money is a consideration, and the mediator costs money. If the meeting gets destructive, I can just leave.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 07:48 PM
Quote:

The second I read your W's proposal I thought about the Brazil case as well. If your W wants the children to be exposed to other cultures tell her to take them to a museum!


Right! Also, this is a big country. She can give the kids plenty of exposure to different cultures right here in the USA. Once they leave this country, I have no power or control over what happens to them, and I can't accept that, given the circumstances. Intel I've gotten told me that OM sent my W an application for citizenship in his country.

Quote:

The "formula" my attny helped me establish was as follows:

1. What I am 110% unwilling under any circumstance to bend on

2. What I might possibly bend on if the counter offer is appropriate

3. Things I am willing to bend on (which essentially were not important to me and merely created leverage and a false sense of goodwill with my H)


Sounds like a good plan. I've already started to separate her proposal into those three groups.

Quote:

I am so sorry you have to deal with all of this. I know it is so easy to say "do this" and "don't do that" but I wish I would have followed my attnys plan from the get go (NOT talking to H). Especially if opposing counsel does not practice law in a "clean" way. And sadly, in this state most WAS who are in an affair and have lots at stake (and I don't mean money) will retain the "snake" attny as they are in the wrong and unlike most states, our state *is* a "fault" state.

I am not sure how to give you my contact info but if you ever need any moral support as you navigate through this mess of a family court system find me on the boards. I can really relate to it being a very difficult journey.


Thanks much CityGirl. I am learning how unfortunately terrible the laws are in this state around divorce. If I can't get the mediation to work, it's going to get very ugly, and very expensive.

Quote:

Stay strong and keep in mind your W is *really* missing out!


That's the thing I can't seem to let go of. We have a great time together. Why isn't that enough, at least for us to build on? Even in the face of all this, we built up many good memories over the last year. Taking the kids to baseball games, taking them to local festivals, movies, playing games, watching them do sports. Plus, just her and I have gone out several times and had a ball together. What is the problem???????? Why isn't it enough for her? If we hated each other and had a bad vibe when we were around each other, then I could understand just wanting to end this, but it just doesn't make sense.
Posted By: motherof3 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 08:00 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
[QUOTE]
If we hated each other and had a bad vibe when we were around each other, then I could understand just wanting to end this, but it just doesn't make sense.


If anything our WAS did/said made any sense, then none of us would be posting here.

You seemed to be handling this well. Stay strong.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 08:07 PM
The divorce laws in this fine state <insert sacrasm here> are nothing short of shameful. Do you know it has been in legislation for close to THIRTY years to have some "modern progress" made with divorce and our state. I was FIVE YEARS OLD and now I am close to 35 and not one damn thing has changed.

This won't help you and it didn't help me but it was interesting. Our state has a very vested interest in keeping marriages in tact and sadly it has nothing to do with the family structure or morality. My attny showed me this huge study that really examined how much our state rakes in by keeping marriages in tact as married people tend to buy property (and pay the insane property taxes which keeps the City pumping and leaves the rest of the state broke). It's all rather sick when you think about it. And it is terribly sad. Separation and divorce, especially when children of any age are involved, is so terribly difficult. Why the state chooses to make it so much harder with archaic laws is beyond me.

I can't say it won't get expensive because it will. And I know we don't have money trees in our yards or growing from our stoops (and if you do I am coming over, lol!) but honestly at some point you have to weigh you sanity against cost. And luckily for us it is commonplace for the spouse that cheats and walks aways to be responsible for ALL legal fees as we do live in a "fault" state.

I wish I could help you make sense of your W because you seem to love her so, so much and you seem like a lovely man and a terrific dad. I think for some people there simply isn't ever enough.

I nearly dropped over dead trying to understand things. And I am not being dramatic... my kidneys nearly shut down during the height of my situation due to my lupus and stress. From time to time I still sort of wish I could understand things fully. Not to reconcile but just because sometimes I have a deep urge to just "get it". I know I probably won't ever get it. Little by little you (general you I mean) will feel decent about not totally "getting it".

I think it is terribly difficult to follow certain DB's principles when you live in our state once the legal side of things begin as we are the only state in the union with such AWFUL divorce laws. I am not suggesting you become an ass but we simply do not have the same options as everybody else in the country.

My mom's divorce turned into a four year nightmare and eventually she had to move out of state, establish residency and start from scratch. And that is simply not right.

I am here for you - give me a shout if you need to!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 10:40 PM
Quote:

The divorce laws in this fine state <insert sacrasm here> are nothing short of shameful. Do you know it has been in legislation for close to THIRTY years to have some "modern progress" made with divorce and our state. I was FIVE YEARS OLD and now I am close to 35 and not one damn thing has changed.

This won't help you and it didn't help me but it was interesting. Our state has a very vested interest in keeping marriages in tact and sadly it has nothing to do with the family structure or morality. My attny showed me this huge study that really examined how much our state rakes in by keeping marriages in tact as married people tend to buy property (and pay the insane property taxes which keeps the City pumping and leaves the rest of the state broke). It's all rather sick when you think about it. And it is terribly sad. Separation and divorce, especially when children of any age are involved, is so terribly difficult. Why the state chooses to make it so much harder with archaic laws is beyond me.


It is very frustrating. I think reform of divorce law is doomed because it's so politically worthless. Who's going to vote for a politician because they are championing better divorce law?

Quote:

And luckily for us it is commonplace for the spouse that cheats and walks aways to be responsible for ALL legal fees as we do live in a "fault" state.


Is this true? Can I divorce my W and make her pay all the legal costs?

Quote:

I wish I could help you make sense of your W because you seem to love her so, so much and you seem like a lovely man and a terrific dad. I think for some people there simply isn't ever enough.


I do love her, but as time goes by, our M gets more and more distant. Thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I agree with them, other times I feel like I sealed my own fate with my failings in our M.

Quote:

I nearly dropped over dead trying to understand things. And I am not being dramatic... my kidneys nearly shut down during the height of my situation due to my lupus and stress. From time to time I still sort of wish I could understand things fully. Not to reconcile but just because sometimes I have a deep urge to just "get it". I know I probably won't ever get it. Little by little you (general you I mean) will feel decent about not totally "getting it".


Wow! I'm sorry you went through that. Stress is incredibly unhealthy. I think running saved me through these last couple years. My W and I were talking a few months ago, and she said how the nurse at her doctor was noting how her blood pressure had been quite elevated for a while. My W said she realized it was the stress of all this. She asked me how my blood pressure is, and I told her very low, because of the running. The nurse at my doctor did a double take when she read 106/70 off me. Not bad for a middle aged guy!

Quote:

I think it is terribly difficult to follow certain DB's principles when you live in our state once the legal side of things begin as we are the only state in the union with such AWFUL divorce laws. I am not suggesting you become an ass but we simply do not have the same options as everybody else in the country.


I totally agree with this! The legal defense I'm forced to make does nothing but increase the negativity between us.
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 10:45 PM
I think too that for some people there simply isn't ever enough. I've thought that about my H. He says that he had NO complaints about me. That I'm a great wife. But he had an affair anyway and got addicted to the high. I think that sometimes you've just got someone who expects YOU to make THEM happy, and you can never do that for someone else. Happiness is an internal state. Getting a good "fix" of romance or alcohol or something else works for awhile, but general happiness is internal. I think my H looks outside and not inside. Future, just look inside. Don't try to understand it anymore. It doesn't, and won't ever, make sense. You just got the rug pulled out from under you and have to pick yourself up.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 10:51 PM
Originally Posted By: musclegal
I think too that for some people there simply isn't ever enough. I've thought that about my H. He says that he had NO complaints about me. That I'm a great wife. But he had an affair anyway and got addicted to the high.


This was one of the "infidelity myths" that was shattered by Harley in his research, when he found that a good chunk (I think it might have been 20-25%?) of cases of affairs were by HAPPILY MARRIED spouses. No marital dysfunction; no significant prior marital complaints.

It's always good to do a real gut-check, obviously, but sometimes it's just plain ol' LUST that happens. (Not saying it did in mine; I definitely contributed to some of the marital dysfunction).

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 11:04 PM
Well, I definitely had marital dysfunction, but I worked dam* hard to get better, and I know I am, and I know I would be a much better husband now. I'm five times the father I was two years ago. I've demonstrated that to my W over and over, but she prefers to hang onto her old resentments, presumably as justification for her A.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 11:25 PM
Well, you can't make your W do anything legally of course but in your shoes I would have your attny file an immediate motion for immediate reimbursement of legal fees. Whatever you do, do NOT agree to ANYTHING between you and your W or via the mediator about legal fees. My attny told me that every day and my H refused mediation. While this sounds funny I basically told my attny that I would go to the electric chair or spend the rest of my life in jail before I paid a dime of legal fees. Not only was my H ordered to pay my legal fees, he also had to pay my mom a penalty as she let me borrow the retainer and had to open up a retirement account to get the funds. And, it is HIGHLY advisable not to take any legal fees from joint funds as it demonstrates need that you had to borrow the money as to not take away from your quality of life.

The one beauty about living in a "fault" state is how acceptable it is for the spouse who is NOT cheating to file for divorce. It is not what you desire however it *is* considered cruel and inhumane treatment to be expected to stay in a marriage when a third party is present. You W can easily be portrayed now as a "flight risk" and it would not be unreasonable to have your attny request her passport be surrendered. Chances are she will request the same and of course, the passports of any minor children. Especially since NY is very close proximity to Canada with entry points to the country peppered in several areas. This is very common procedure.

While I know people that have made it through mediation just fine (and most of them were 2 spouses that were "on board" with a divorce) mediation is not really conducive to the divorce laws of this state.

It is *very* hard and very scary but you must be very aggressive with your desires (legal fees, support, asset allocation, division of debt and property) as there is no set formula just general guidelines so you can create some leeway for yourself if you approach it with a very skilled attny.

I would gather your marriage is classed as "vintage" (has reached the 10 year mark as mine did). Sadly, it is harder to dissolve a vintage marriage in this state and to "win" what you desire expect things to be contested unless you have a magician of a mediator.

In your case, your W contesting the grounds would actually be good for you as she would need burden of proof, not you!

I wish I could put a positive spin on all this but it really is horrible. Everybody told me that and I was so sure my case would be different. It's not.

It is SICKENING to fork over such a massive check to an attny for this reason but honestly, it's just too much for any normal human to take on themselves. While the laws are stringent they also are filled with loopholes and once you get stuck in a loophole it is NOT easy to get out!

I studied the divorce laws of this state like it was my job. I was very selective in retaining counsel and while it was a ton of work I am so, so glad I put the effort in that I did.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/07/10 11:34 PM
Also, everything I am sharing is what happens once the divorce or separation reaches the family court level.

I assume you have not actually filed anything yet as your W would only have twenty days to retain counsel and accept your grounds and settlement or counter.

In our state you cannot file a divorce decree without having a settlement offer (that is not to say she will take it but it has to be made available to her). Also, if you do file for divorce her attny has the right to request a signed affidavit from you (your attny will prepare this) that explains in full and great detail the grounds in which you are filing under.

If she does not request this DON'T OFFER. You are legally required to comply should the request be made however if the request is NOT made you are under no legal obligation to provide said affidavit. My H's attny ignored our request for this affidavit which actually worked in my favor as it was very easy to tell the judge during the initial RJI Hearing we had no clue why we were there as no info had been provided after the formal request was made.

It's all BS. And it seems endless. It's not.
Posted By: hopingbeyondhope Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 03:28 AM
Originally Posted By: motherof3
[quote=futureunknown][QUOTE]
If we hated each other and had a bad vibe when we were around each other, then I could understand just wanting to end this, but it just doesn't make sense.


If anything our WAS did/said made any sense, then none of us would be posting here.

I don't think truer words have been spoken.
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 02:09 PM
I wish I lived in a "fault" state. It is VERY frustrating to live in a "no fault" state. Funny, I live in Kansas where they want to teach creationism in the schools but divorce is a piece of cake. No fault. Everything is divided 50%-50%. There is not a lot of wiggle room. They actually encourage joint custody. It is so funny how different states can have different 'takes' on this. I'd almost like to litigate the "no fault" position. It seems that if you have kids, you shouldn't walk away "without fault" when you decide to jump into bed with someone because you can't control your lust.

Who is the "Harley" who researched affairs in happily married couples? Do you have his first name? Sounds interesting...
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 02:50 PM
The difficulties with a "fault" state are the lack of definition and how difficult it is to prove fault.

If your spouse cheats on you (even if he/she admits it to you and you have evidence) in order for the ground to be recognized by the court you must have a third party witness willing to testify under oath they saw your spouse and OM/OW having sexual intercourse. Not kissing, not touching but full blown sex.

So, when one files for divorce using the grounds of adultery, the cheating spouse will always contest the grounds as they are nearly impossible to prove in court and they will get away with it.

The kicker is our state does not recognize the grounds of "irreconcilable differences". Most people file under "cruel and inhumane treatment" but again, all the cheating spouse has to do is contest the grounds and then burden of proof begins.

The GOOD thing about the laws here is a physical separation is not recognized by the courts. A married couple can live apart for years but in order for the court to recognize a separation they must have a legal separation document in place. Essentially that is the SAME procedure (aside from the grounds as the Separation Agreement serves as the grounds) as filing for a divorce.

Aside from the grounds that are filed the court ONLY takes the following into consideration... the age of both spouses, length of marriage, the health of both spouses and how many children you have. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no set formula for ANYTHING and all decisions are based on what the attnys can present and the above mentioned guidelines. It is sort of a free for all when you think about it.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 02:55 PM
Originally Posted By: musclegal


Who is the "Harley" who researched affairs in happily married couples? Do you have his first name? Sounds interesting...


Willard Harley.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 03:14 PM
Quote:

If your spouse cheats on you (even if he/she admits it to you and you have evidence) in order for the ground to be recognized by the court you must have a third party witness willing to testify under oath they saw your spouse and OM/OW having sexual intercourse. Not kissing, not touching but full blown sex.

So, when one files for divorce using the grounds of adultery, the cheating spouse will always contest the grounds as they are nearly impossible to prove in court and they will get away with it.


I've been wondering about this. Can you have them asked in court, under oath, whether they've had sex with someone else? Sure, they can lie, but they would be risking contempt of court. Judges don't much like being lied to.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 03:29 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I've been wondering about this. Can you have them asked in court, under oath, whether they've had sex with someone else? Sure, they can lie, but they would be risking contempt of court. Judges don't much like being lied to.

no disrespect but LMAO. We live in SCREW PORK STATE Future.

"I invoke my rights under the Fifth ammendment"

The fifth amendment protects witnesses from being forced to incriminate themselves. To "plead the Fifth" is to refuse to answer a question because the response could provide self-incriminating evidence of an illegal conduct punished by fines, penalties or forfeiture.

Adultery is a misdermeanor in NYS. Good Luck using that as a grounds for divorce. Your lawyer has probably recommended using cruel and inhumane treatment. As the evidence required to show that an affair was occuring is not as strict. kissing someone else is justification.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 03:42 PM
There are many, many steps that have to be taken before your case went to trial.

And who knows, if your W accepts the grounds and doesn't contest the grounds and accepts your settlement offer all of this will be a non issue for you. I simply shared all this with you as something like 82% of all divorces in NY are contested. While mentally it bites that is also why 90% of ALL divorces are initiated via a Separation Agreement rather than divorce filings.

Before you went to trial you would have a RJI Hearing (Request for Judicial Intervention). Then several Pre-Trial Conferences. All of these proceedings take place in a little room (not a courtroom) and they are overseen by an officer of the court and not a judge.

There are MANY steps before it would go to trial.

My H was hellbent on getting a divorce and rushed, rushed,rushed the process (he did this to avoid being sued by me before I found out about OW but little did he know I knew!). He also told his attny that he and I BOTH wanted a divorce and we planned to use one attny, this was before I even knew he planned to leave. Once he saw I was not fooling around and our divorce case went to all the steps (this took 1.5 years) just short of trial he backed down and asked for a Separation Agreement. He knew he was screwed.

Professionally your W might simply agree to the grounds and your settlement offer as all of this will be public record. It would not bode well for her career to be sued for adultery for all her current and potential clients (patients?) to see.

That was my H's biggest fear - the info that would be on public record. His family had NO clue about OW until recently and the label of cheater via the legal system will never go away.

You have a LONG way to go before court. If you play it smart you won't ever go to trial but chances are you will have several pre-trial (RJI's and so on) to attend before *something* happens.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 04:10 PM
I also wanted to add that I am not blind to how terribly hard this process is. I know I seem very cold about this process and it took me a long time to get to that point. For many months I was a crying heap every time I had to talk to my attny about this. I was terrified. The worst "trouble" I had ever been in was a parking ticket! All of a sudden motions were being filed against me and I (or my attny) was filing motions and I just felt like my head was spinning.

I can remember sitting on my living room floor sobbing thinking F*ck It - I just wanted this to be over. It wasn't that I wanted to reconcile or I was even *that* sad about the marriage ending anymore I simply could not handle the legal stress anymore.

I sometimes wonder if I have become desensitized to the legal process in our state because once you are in the thick of it you kind of have to be. It took me a LONG time to view it as policy and procedure.

I apologize if I come across like the emotional side of it is not a big deal because IT IS! It is the BIGGEST part but after close to two years of it I sort of had to refocus how I viewed it for my own sanity.

My own experience is one of the reasons I am going back to school to study law. I want to be able to help people like my attny and his staff did for me. Not "help" as in rake somebody over the coals but to really *be* there for a person in every way during such a difficult time. I WANT to be able to say to a shattered and terrified person I will fight for you but I will also give you tissues and hugs.

I had to become tough as nails for my own sanity. I realize it is easier for me as I am done with my process and you are not.

I sometimes wonder if I should just post my entire ordeal for all to read just so it is easier to understand why I *had* to take the stance I did. Then I think it is part of my past but maybe it would help somebody else.

Anyhow, I know this is horrible and I am so sorry you have to even deal with it.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 06:48 PM
Quote:

no disrespect but LMAO. We live in SCREW PORK STATE Future.

"I invoke my rights under the Fifth ammendment"

The fifth amendment protects witnesses from being forced to incriminate themselves. To "plead the Fifth" is to refuse to answer a question because the response could provide self-incriminating evidence of an illegal conduct punished by fines, penalties or forfeiture.

Adultery is a misdermeanor in NYS. Good Luck using that as a grounds for divorce. Your lawyer has probably recommended using cruel and inhumane treatment. As the evidence required to show that an affair was occuring is not as strict. kissing someone else is justification.


I didn't realize it was a crime. I was wondering if the fifth amendment would give protection against a question asked for the purposes of establishing fault in a divorce, but you're right, if it's also a crime, then the fifth amendment protections apply.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 06:54 PM
I think what maybe you are not understanding is it is not as cut and dry as "asking and telling" because the divorce laws of this state are not conducive to "yes or no". It sucks but it is what we have to work with.

That is why I am saying if you do want to get divorced then file under "cruel and inhumane" treatment as it won't be "yes or no - did you do this" with the same level of burden adultery would be.

But yes, in our state adultery is a crime.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 06:57 PM
Quote:

And who knows, if your W accepts the grounds and doesn't contest the grounds and accepts your settlement offer all of this will be a non issue for you. I simply shared all this with you as something like 82% of all divorces in NY are contested. While mentally it bites that is also why 90% of ALL divorces are initiated via a Separation Agreement rather than divorce filings.


I have no idea what my W would do if I sued for divorce. Would she contest? I don't know. If she did, I don't know why. She left, she's been involved with someone else. How can she contest my divorcing her? When she thought her and OM were going to live some blissful future together, she would have taken pretty much anything I offered to get her out of the marriage, but now her tone has very much changed. A friend of mine who went through a process very much similar to you CityGirl advised me to get my agreement done while my W was in that state, as he feared it would eventually turn ugly, and now it has started down that road. I should have listened to him.

My friend's W did exactly what your H did. Just short of going to trial, she backed down and accepted a separation agreement.

Quote:

Professionally your W might simply agree to the grounds and your settlement offer as all of this will be public record. It would not bode well for her career to be sued for adultery for all her current and potential clients (patients?) to see.

That was my H's biggest fear - the info that would be on public record. His family had NO clue about OW until recently and the label of cheater via the legal system will never go away.


That's why a year ago when I told my W I wanted to divorce her she reared back and yelled "If you divorce me I'll never forgive you!" Wow.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 07:00 PM
She would contest if you filed under adultery because she knows for a fact you do NOT have a third party willing to testify under oath on your behalf that he/she witnessed your W and her boyfriend having sexual intercourse.

Why WOULD she just accept adultery when her counsel will tell her the way the divorce laws in this state are designed it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE for you to prove it?

When you contest you can be contesting the D or contesting the GROUNDS. In this case your W will most probably NOT contest the D but *will* contest the grounds as she will know you don't have what it takes for you to "win" with adultery.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 07:02 PM
I have to run out and meet my sister for a late lunch and to pick up my mom's b-day gift.

I don't know if this would be helpful to you or not but I have a BINDER of info I collected over the past two years about divorce laws. While I would like to have it back you can borrow it for a while. It all either came from the court system or law libraries so it's not my opinion, just facts and procedures.

Not sure how I would get it to you or if you live near me but just thought I would offer.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 07:06 PM
And FTR - after 1.5 years of legal hell with the divorce my H demanded HE was the one that begged me to accept a Separation Agreement right before trial. It was totally in my legal right to decline his offer as he has already initiated the D.

Either way I was going to get what I wanted and actually his fear of trial once he saw I was not backing down gave me more leverage. I was fully prepared (both legally and emotionally) to go to trial, it was he that was not.

I never contested the D or the grounds - I just counter sued him under the same grounds which he was not expecting at all. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms!
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 07:10 PM
And the *only* honest thing my H will tell me to this day is he kicks himself 500 times a day for declining my offer of a legal separation shortly after the bomb.

He will be paying legal fees for a long time and his jaded thought process that I would just roll over and do as he said resulted in me getting most of what we built over the past decade. That and the really stupid attny he retained.

There is no "nice" divorce in this state. Go for the separation and wait your year and then file using the Agreement as grounds.
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 07:16 PM
I see now, why people who can afford it, use private detectives to get further proof of infidelity. Difficult though, when someone is outside the country. Although, a PI would be cheaper there with the rate of exchange (depending on the country). I enquired about using one for another matter in my country of origin and it would've cost me Cdn$7 = 1. So, around $100 for a 700 investigation. Not bad.

Can one use the infidelity in another country as a flight risk when it comes to custody, if not for the purposes of D?

OMG Future, I hope it doesn't come to this, but it seems your WAW is bent on going through with this. One would think she would hesitate after having gone through it before. Just know that you didn't do anything to deserve being betrayed like this. It's not your fault. Yes, you might've been a better H, but we are all imperfect. I bet she could've been a better W, but did you turn to someone else to get your jollies? No! It is just the way she is, it seems. If things aren't going her way, she finds someone else. But, now there are children involved, so she should've tried harder to find a way to improve the M, and one thing would've been to make you see how serious she was before she withdrew her affection.

But, I am in no better sitch, after 5 years trying to make my H see after our so-called reconciliation. I think in his case, he just never regained his love for me, just whiteknuckling for the sake of the children, and I don't want that, and nor would you. It's no way to live.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 07:33 PM
Quote:

Can one use the infidelity in another country as a flight risk when it comes to custody, if not for the purposes of D?


I am assuming that will be all I need to prevent her from ever taking our minor children out of the country.

Quote:

OMG Future, I hope it doesn't come to this, but it seems your WAW is bent on going through with this. One would think she would hesitate after having gone through it before. Just know that you didn't do anything to deserve being betrayed like this. It's not your fault. Yes, you might've been a better H, but we are all imperfect. I bet she could've been a better W, but did you turn to someone else to get your jollies? No! It is just the way she is, it seems. If things aren't going her way, she finds someone else. But, now there are children involved, so she should've tried harder to find a way to improve the M, and one thing would've been to make you see how serious she was before she withdrew her affection.


She did seem to be hesitating last fall. She was seriously wavering, and I was trying to be strong, but also offer her a path back. I thought for sure I was riding the line just right. I offered her my sympathy, as in "I can imagine what this must be like for you emotionally." I tried not to put on serious pressure, as in "Reconciliation is way too big of a word for what I want right now, but I'd like for us to spend some time together to see how it feels." She eventually said she would like us to spend time together, but when I laid down my boundary that there can't be a third party involved, that's when she got all strange on me, and things degraded. I really thought she was returning to normal, and that I could see in her the W I knew. I guess not.

I know we both could have been much better spouses to each other. I expressed to her my regret and sorrow for my failings in our M. She seemed to accept that from me. She in turn expressed to me her regret over her failings. I was floored, and that was what got me to lower my guard.

Quote:

But, I am in no better sitch, after 5 years trying to make my H see after our so-called reconciliation. I think in his case, he just never regained his love for me, just whiteknuckling for the sake of the children, and I don't want that, and nor would you. It's no way to live.


I'm sorry you are going through this. To my W's credit, last fall she did express to me her fear that that is exactly what would happen with us. I tried to just validate her fear, and give her a no pressure option to take.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 07:37 PM
I think "flight risk" in NY is very common when custody issues come up due to the close proximity to Canada. My mom and step dad live in NY but have three bridges within 2 miles of their home to enter into Canada. Actually there are four bridges but one of them is a "walking bridge" and vehicles are not allowed.

Last year a little boy who lived in Canada right next to the bridge to the US decided to take an adventure and ride his bike over the "big bridge" he saw every day. I think he was like 6yo. Somehow a small child zoomed past customs on his bike on the "walking bridge" to the US and NOBODY noticed.

Now that we have the Nexus card things might be different but it up until that became necessary to enter in to Canada it was *very* easy to gain entry to Canada by pulling up to customs, acknowledging the "arret" sign (:) ) and saying "citizenship US" without ANY documentation.
Posted By: TrentC Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 07:46 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
Now that we have the Nexus card things might be different but it up until that became necessary to enter in to Canada it was *very* easy to gain entry to Canada by pulling up to customs, acknowledging the "arret" sign (:) ) and saying "citizenship US" without ANY documentation.


Why do I have "Blame Canada" running through my head now? (Or better yet, the "Canadians: They Walk Among Us" spot from Canadian Bacon?)
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 08:14 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown


She did seem to be hesitating last fall. She was seriously wavering, and I was trying to be strong, but also offer her a path back. I thought for sure I was riding the line just right. I offered her my sympathy, as in "I can imagine what this must be like for you emotionally." I tried not to put on serious pressure, as in "Reconciliation is way too big of a word for what I want right now, but I'd like for us to spend some time together to see how it feels." She eventually said she would like us to spend time together, but when I laid down my boundary that there can't be a third party involved, that's when she got all strange on me, and things degraded. I really thought she was returning to normal, and that I could see in her the W I knew. I guess not.


Then you did all you could do, Future. Stop second-guessing yourself. Ultimately, this was HER decision, and you don't get to make it for her. You had every right to communicate to her your need for no-contact with OM -- you're married, for crissakes. That it went sour at this point means that she was either insincere, or just unwilling to give him up.

Just because there are a bunch of firemen standing around every time you see a fire, doesn't mean FIREMEN CAUSE FIRES. Just because a communicated boundary pushes a spouse away, doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do . . . it just means they weren't ready to be faithful.

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 08:23 PM
Quote:

Just because a communicated boundary pushes a spouse away, doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do . . . it just means they weren't ready to be faithful.


That is EXACTLY how it felt to me, like she just wasn't willing to offer faithfulness.

She HATES the obligations of our M. She felt trapped by them for years, so I understand her refusal to accept them again. What I don't know is whether she would have rebelled against them regardless of the state of our M, or simply because M requires sacrifice of certain freedoms, and compromise of life decisions.
Posted By: Steve McQueen Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 08:31 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
That is EXACTLY how it felt to me, like she just wasn't willing to offer faithfulness.


Some people just can't or won't. One can try and presuade them but in the end they are who they are and that is none of your fault.

just remember, life is way too short to live unhappily.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 08:38 PM
Quote:

just remember, life is way too short to live unhappily.


THAT is what I'm embracing moving forward in my life!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 09:07 PM
Quote:

I don't know if this would be helpful to you or not but I have a BINDER of info I collected over the past two years about divorce laws. While I would like to have it back you can borrow it for a while. It all either came from the court system or law libraries so it's not my opinion, just facts and procedures.

Not sure how I would get it to you or if you live near me but just thought I would offer.


I very much appreciate the offer. If I want to take you up on it, I'll get you my contact info outside of this forum.

Your story does concern me, and I can't believe I'm finding myself in this situation. I'm doing pretty well in my single life, and as a single parent with the kids now, which is great. The thought of going through a long drawn out legal battle before I can fully own my life again is discouraging, to say the least.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 09:10 PM
Future, with that wealth of information that CityGirl VERY GRACIOUSLY gave you gratis... can you understand why one of the FIRST things I ever did was lawyer-up?

IMHO CityGirl is one of the few unsung heroes on this board... and I've told her this many times. If I was you I'd get into the "alt", look her up and write her a $1000 check and very nicely ask her to be your legal advisor. I'm dead serious. CG is what you NEED right now, in addition to a father's rights attorney.

Wish I had more advice to give.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 09:17 PM
You posted this while I was writing up my previous post:

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I very much appreciate the offer. If I want to take you up on it, I'll get you my contact info outside of this forum.

DON'T TURN DOWN THAT OFFER.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Your story does concern me, and I can't believe I'm finding myself in this situation.

It should concern you bro.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
The thought of going through a long drawn out legal battle before I can fully own my life again is discouraging, to say the least.

Time to take off your blood-smeared, tinted glasses. D is a nasty business. It doesn't matter what is fair or not... what matters is how well you can manipulate the system - to get what you want - a.k.a the one with the better Legal-Gun wins.

We'd like that to be you.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/08/10 11:29 PM
I realize to the general population of this forum I probably sound rather unstable and perhaps nuts when I begin to discuss the legalities of divorce in NY.

I used to belong to another forum and stopped participating as I was the only member from NY going through a hellish divorce (in the legal sense I mean) and I would get berated on a daily basis for being cruel and not "divorce busting" properly because sometimes you just can't when all this legal BS starts. Everybody would say (the other forum members I mean) stop focusing on what your H and his attny are doing. WHAT? Sure, okay, I will just let a dirty/filthy attny file motion after motion against me just so I can try and be the "bigger person" and maybe my H will want to reconcile? Please pardon me but F*UCK OFF!

I might not very well equipped to converse about the emotional side of divorce as I just grew SICK OF IT ALL so all of a sudden I didn't care anymore but I do remember the pain. I am not an attny (yet, lol!) but I did dedicate nearly two years of my life educating myself (with the help of my AMAZING attny and his staff) on the policy and procedures of this mess of a family court system. Why did I do that? Well, I was not going to get screwed and I needed to be sure I understood 110% of the time what the hell my attny was talking about. And maybe I just needed to feel in control of something and knowledge was the only control I had. Also, when you are dealing with a snake as opposing counsel you either get rolled or get smart. Maybe I am not smart but I can assure you I didn't get rolled.

For a long time I listened to all the horror stories of divorce in this state and I thought.. "gee, our case won't be like that". LOL!

I understand not wanting a long and drawn out legal battle but once the momentum of the divorce case gets rolling it can't be stopped. Let's say you had a pre-trial conference and you or your attny could not attend. The court has SIX WEEKS to reschedule. That is almost two months. That is why all of this takes so darn long.

If you want I can post my case start to finish. To this day I honestly don't think my H had ANY clue what a snake he hired. That is why it is essential that you retain counsel that is not snake'ish (like my word? lol!) but is no wimp either. You need to retain counsel that will work WITH you AND FOR you.

I will butt out if I am making you upset. No hard feelings at all. I guess I should aim to be more gentle but divorce in this state is not a gentle thing.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/09/10 12:51 AM
One thing I did was to call the State Bar Association and ask how I could learn more. There are seminars/classes, whatever you want to call them, that are hosted all over the state for free. You won't get specific legal advice but you do get a very good overall view of divorce and legal proceedings. I went to three because each one was hosted by a different attny and I thought it was important to hear how one attny viewed things vs. another.

They will explain the grounds and procedure but not advise you personally. Each seminar/class is three hours and very informative. Or I should say I found them informative.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/09/10 02:21 AM
Just had my meeting with my W. Didn't go too well. I threw caution to the wind and threw a few honest feelers out, I thought I had nothing to lose, but it went nowhere, as expected.

She tried to seriously bully me. Her mother has been watching the kids for me after school on my days, but she is hurt how her mother has sided with me on this, so she is now insisting that she be allowed to watch the kids every day after school instead of her mother. She said her mother's age and health make it unsafe for her to watch the kids. I listened to her, then she said "So I can start watching the kids next week, what time will you be available to get them from me on those days?" I said "Well, I need to talk to your mother and see what I want to do." She got angry and said "I told you clearly that she is NOT going to watch the kids any more. I laid out my reasons why. Good reasons." I calmly said "I'm not going to make a decision about that now." She said "She is NOT going to watch the kids any more." I said "I am not going to be dictated to or bullied, and I am not going to be forced into making a decision right now sitting here in this booth." She backed off and said "Think about it over the weekend, and we'll talk Sunday."

We discussed a few other minor things, then it got to the big one. I said "The kids aren't getting passports." She said "Yes they are." I said "You're a flight risk." She said "How can you say that? Look at how I've acted all year. I have never tried to keep the kids from you. I can see how much they love you. I would never take them from you. Can't you see that?" She was convincing, I'll admit. I said "W, you already have." She said "That was different. Our M was dysfunctional, we had to separate, you said yourself it was good for us to separate." She got a little nasty and said "You are mentally unstable around this. I have given you no indication I would flee with the kids." I said "I have a witness that heard you say if you could take your kids with you, you would move to <OM's country> in a heartbeat." At least she didn't deny it. She said "The operative work there is IF. If I could take them I might. If you were dead, who knows." That wasn't a threat, in case anyone here takes it that way, she was just talking about the circumstances in which she would feel free to take the kids there. I could tell she did not like that I knew she said that and that I have a witness. She said "Don't make us spend $10,000 just you can hear a judge say the kids can get passports." When I said "Based on what I saw in you last year, I have no basis to trust you, I just can't allow it." She said "I will bankrupt us both before I'll give up on that. The world is my home. I will take the kids and show them the world. Don't take that from me." Again, she was convincing, and I did feel for her. I said "W, you had that, and you gave it up." She said "What do you mean?" I said "You could have taken them anywhere within the confines of our marriage." Then she got sarcastic and said "Oh yeah, great, us travelling all over with our dysfunctional marriage. That would have been great."

Realize, 90% of me believes she wouldn't take the kids from me, but 10% knows it is a possibility. Oh, and I know she wouldn't outright TAKE the kids from me. If I allowed her to take them to OM's country, she would go there, have a ball, her romance with OM would possibly start back up, she'd get an offer for an absolutely irresistable job, then I'd get the phone call. "H, I have something I want you to think about. I have <list of wonderful things> going on down here, and I want to be able to stay for a while longer, so here's what I propose. We'll do rotating 3 month custody, or I'll keep them here for school, and they can come stay with you on breaks and in the summer. Think about it ok?" Then I'd say "Ah, no. Just bring the kids home on the day we agreed. I'm happy with our current arrangement." Then she'd get angry and say "H, I am NOT giving up this opportunity, and I am NOT giving up my kids. You WILL consider what I'm offering." Then I'd repeat "No. I'm happy with our current arrangement. Bring the kids home on our agreed day." Then she'd say "H, I won't let you keep this from me. I won't let our failed M ruin the rest of my life. The kids are staying here until we resolve this." Then I'm off to the legal races, and I start spending tens of thousands of dollars trying to mount a legal defense to get my kids back. Knowing my W, that scenario is absolutely realistic.

We went through the rest, then recapped, and agreed to just sit on everything for a couple days, then talk again Sunday. She said "If we can't come to an agreement Sunday, then it's time to get lawyers involved."

I again said what the h*ll and just asked "So W, did your decision regarding OM have anything to do with how you felt about me or our M?" She was angry, and said "Yes. And now that there's absolutely no chance for us, I'm sure that stings, doesn't it?" Then she walked away.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/09/10 02:59 AM
Future -

I am sorry the talk didn't turn out how you had hoped.

I hope you don't get upset with me and I am sorry if you do but I really do think you are making a very grave mistake even using the words "flight risk" with your W.

She told you that either way she is about to get her attny involved. If the two of you can't agree together about the passport/taking the kids out of the country issue she will have to tell her attny that. She will also tell her attny that you told her the concerns you have about her being a flight risk.

In turn, her attny is going to start protecting HER so she can do what SHE wants when SHE has custody post divorce and don't think for a minute those wheels won't be in motion before you know about it.

I know it's so hard. I know you want to grab your W and shake her (I am not implying you are violent, I just get the frustration) but there are some things you are going to have to keep to yourself in the legal sense. If you don't it will be YOU that adds to the legal bills because your W knows ahead of time what is on your mind and don't think for a second she won't be telling her counsel all of it.

By telling her you feel she is a flight risk (and I agree that she is) you essentially spilled a potential legal strategy you could have used to your benefit to the "enemy".

I tried to make this post more gentle and I am sorry if makes you more sad but I made SO many mistakes trying to talk to my H and all it did was hurt me and my case more.
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/09/10 10:35 AM
Quote:
"Yes. And now that there's absolutely no chance for us, I'm sure that stings, doesn't it?" Then she walked away.

Your W is a pretty mean person. This is not the first time she has deliberately said something to hurt you, for no reason, other than you won't bow down to her wishes.

I would get going on that lawyer soon. She may've done so already.

And this "dysfunctional marriage" she keeps harping on --- she could've tried fixing it. I think there is something seriously wrong here --- an underlying feeling of selfishness and toughness. She would make a good salesperson. I think you are too close to the sitch, and from our perspective (if you are telling everything) she's not going to back down unless she is forced to do so by law. I rather feel sorry for the OM. I doubt he's getting the full truth just as you aren't either.

Protect yourself, and you protect your children too. She is their mother, but she will not hesitate to keep them from you, by the sounds of it. And, how can kids be travelling around the world, not going to school, etc. Sounds very unstable. And isn't it a little dramatic, with the world is her country (or whatever) and you won't deny her giving them that, yadda yadda.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/11/10 04:06 PM
Late Friday night after our meeting she called me and wanted to ask if the reason I was refusing to allow the kids to get passports was because I wanted to punish her or if I was really afraid she wouldn't bring them back. I told her there wasn't anything left in me that wants to punish her, then I told her the scenario I described, essentially word for word. She had to acknowledge that it did sound like her, but she reiterated she would not do that. She said she made her decision to live here, and that was one of the reasons she and OM ended things. I said "W, when you face a choice between your happiness or mine, you will go with yours." She said "I know. I made that choice and I stick by it, but I place the kids' happiness above mine." Not quite sure how she reconciles that with breaking up our family, but oh well. I said the best I could offer regarding the kids passports was to just not address it at all in our agreement, and leave it to settle later. The antagonism between us was much reduced, and we were back to our friendly demeanor toward each other. We chatted about a couple other things and said goodbye.

Then Saturday morning she was all warm and friendly. I went to watch my girls at gymnastics, and she walked up and said "Hi! If I knew you were coming I'd have gotten coffee and a donut for you too." Then she looked at me and asked "How are you?" I said "I'm fine. How are you doing?" She said "I'm ok. I really want us to be ok." I put my hand on ther shoulder for a moment. She said "I admit I do get dug in about things, but I wouldnt do that to you." She was referring to the scenario I described the night before.

After gymnastics she invited me to go shopping with them for a while before my son's basketball game. I walked through a couple stores with them. Then we left to go to the game, which I am coaching again. She was warm and friendly throughout the whole thing, then left with the kids.

This morning she dropped off the kids and was friendly again. She asked if I checked my e-mail yet, and I said no. She said she put together a counter proposal and e-mailed it to me, and she asked if I'd look it over and let her know if it was ok so she could relax and enjoy the rest of her Sunday. She said "Don't be scared, it's a good e-mail." I smiled and said "I'm not scared."

I checked my e-mail and read her proposal. She agreed to soften her stance on the child care with her mother. She agreed to my counteroffer on the child support, and she agreed to drop her request that the kids get passports. She said we could leave it for later. She said she didn't feel she needed to or wanted to tell me anything about her life, but just so I knew where she was coming from, she said she is getting certified with a particular kind of training that is needed worldwide, and that she wants to use that to take 4-5 international trips each year. She wants the option to take one of the kids with her on each trip to expose them to different cultures.

I replied and told her I thought we could come an agreement on child care, but I also told her I thought her resentment toward her mother is affecting her decision regarding whether her mother watches the kids for me. I thanked her for dropping the passport issue, and I thanked her for telling me why it was so important to her.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/11/10 04:18 PM
No real advice for you this morning, Future, but I just wanted to say that I LOVED this line:

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I said "W, when you face a choice between your happiness or mine, you will go with yours."



SO true!!!

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/11/10 08:54 PM
Thanks Puppy. Being able to say those types of things to her in a calm and matter of fact manner convinces me that I am making progress, which is good.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/11/10 09:00 PM
Quote:

Your W is a pretty mean person. This is not the first time she has deliberately said something to hurt you, for no reason, other than you won't bow down to her wishes.


She does lash out, for sure. Always has. I learned to just let it bounce off.

Quote:

I would get going on that lawyer soon. She may've done so already.


She has contacted a lawyer. She told me so. She said her lawyer assured her a judge would order me to allow the kids to travel overseas with her.

Quote:

And this "dysfunctional marriage" she keeps harping on --- she could've tried fixing it. I think there is something seriously wrong here --- an underlying feeling of selfishness and toughness. She would make a good salesperson. I think you are too close to the sitch, and from our perspective (if you are telling everything) she's not going to back down unless she is forced to do so by law. I rather feel sorry for the OM. I doubt he's getting the full truth just as you aren't either.


Yeah, she hangs onto this notion that our M was unfixable. Pretty funny for a MC to say that to her own H. My W is a brutal mix. She has many positive attributes. She's smart, and fun, and interesting. However, loyalty and committment are not very strong qualities in her, which is tough for me to accept. And yes, I agree, there is no way she was truthful with OM either.

Quote:

Protect yourself, and you protect your children too. She is their mother, but she will not hesitate to keep them from you, by the sounds of it. And, how can kids be travelling around the world, not going to school, etc. Sounds very unstable. And isn't it a little dramatic, with the world is her country (or whatever) and you won't deny her giving them that, yadda yadda.


My friends think she is unstable too. She is a dreamer, always has been. She'll make all these plans to make one dream happen, but then her whims change, and her plans wither and die.
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/13/10 12:48 PM
Future, from her perspective she is being so MATURE and CORDIAL when she's not being mean to you. The shopping and donuts aren't an attempt to reconcile. She's trying to have her grown up self dictate her actions when she does that, and she is trying to have a cordial post-divorce relationship with you.

I'm getting that from my husband, too. Its crazy. The niceness won't stay if you get emotional with her or if you critize her in any way. Just keep your distance and calmly look after your own interests.

Its really hard not to take it as a mixed message, but LET HER BE NICE TO YOU. You do need to have a cordial post-divorce relationship for the kids. Figure out how to "tap into" her grown up self in that regard and just stay there. But don't let it build up your hopes. You have to focus now on moving on emotionally for yourself and having a grown up way of dealing with your W for your kids.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 07:26 PM
I am such a mess. I keep going round and round, beating my myself up, making myself doubt that I did the right thing by taking a harder line. She was reaching out to me, she had our family pictures up in her living room, she ended it with OM, and she didn't want to proceed with the legal separation. What I was missing was her giving me any kind of declaration that she didn't want to lose me and/or our marriage, and an expression of remorse over the pain she caused me. She was angry and irritable over her loss of OM, and offered me nothing other than negativity about our marriage. Even if she wanted to reconcile, and she has now admitted to me that she was considering it, I knew our M could never be truly reconciled unless she gave me what I needed.

Now she is angry, she never contacts me, the pictures are gone from her living room, and she is pushing hard to get the legal separation done. She said to me "You will never forgive me. No matter what I do or say, you'll never let it go. You'll always hold it over me." She did also say "H, there is an easiness between us that's nice, but it doesn't make what's hard any less hard." When I said "W, you gave me nothing that made me believe your feelings for me or our M were any factor in your decisions." She replied "You didn't ask." I said "Why didn't you tell me?" Is that what this has all come to? It's insane!

I just got an e-mail from her saying that she's going out of town for ten days at the end of February, and is asking if I can watch the kids during that time. I assume she's going to see OM again, although I have no way of knowing, nor am I sure I want to know.

I so much want to let all this go and move on with my life! I've got nothing left to deal with this. Other areas of my life, and other people in my life are so great, so supportive, and make me feel good. Why can't I just let her go? All I get from her is misery.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 08:06 PM
Future, I feel for you man.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I am such a mess. I keep going round and round, beating my myself up, making myself doubt that I did the right thing by taking a harder line.

You did the right thing.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She was reaching out to me, she had our family pictures up in her living room, she ended it with OM,

Really? How do you KNOW she ended it with him? Do you have proof of this?

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
and she didn't want to proceed with the legal separation.

For her own selfish reasons. She wanted a relaxed holiday period and you hanging on the hook.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
What I was missing was her giving me any kind of declaration that she didn't want to lose me and/or our marriage, and an expression of remorse over the pain she caused me. She was angry and irritable over her loss of OM, and offered me nothing other than negativity about our marriage.

Those were her ACTIONS.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Even if she wanted to reconcile,

IF is the KEYWORD.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
and she has now admitted to me that she was considering it,

What she said and did are two VERY DIFFERENT things. Keep that in mind.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I knew our M could never be truly reconciled unless she gave me what I needed.

Rest with the knowledge that she didn't give you that.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Now she is angry, she never contacts me, the pictures are gone from her living room, and she is pushing hard to get the legal separation done.

She's reacting. She is intentionally going ALL OUT to hurt you with everything she's got.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She said to me "You will never forgive me. No matter what I do or say, you'll never let it go. You'll always hold it over me."

Weren't you the one that said to her, "W, you don't know what I'm thinking or how I'm going to react," or something along those lines?

She's saying those things to justify her actions.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She did also say "H, there is an easiness between us that's nice, but it doesn't make what's hard any less hard."

Stop being Mr Nice Guy.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
When I said "W, you gave me nothing that made me believe your feelings for me or our M were any factor in your decisions."

EXACTLY.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She replied "You didn't ask."

BULLSHIRT!

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I said "Why didn't you tell me?" Is that what this has all come to? It's insane!



Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I just got an e-mail from her saying that she's going out of town for ten days at the end of February, and is asking if I can watch the kids during that time. I assume she's going to see OM again, although I have no way of knowing, nor am I sure I want to know.

Uh huh. True colors are starting to show...

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I so much want to let all this go and move on with my life!

It's not easy FUN. It's not easy. It comes with time and keeping busy with other things.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I've got nothing left to deal with this.

Bullshirt again... at the very least you've got people like me willing to wield 2x4's in your direction and call you out.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Why can't I just let her go? All I get from her is misery.

Because you haven't done the essential exercise of undergoing a full on PURGE.

Can I ask you a favor? I don't know if it's possible... but could you put a spanner in the works of her plans? Those days in February... can you take leave? I mean... something always comes up urgent at work doesn't it? How about finding something that coincides with her days and say... "Sorry W, I can't. I have a course scheduled for that week and I can't cancel it." ... See where I'm going here? Shirt happens IRL. If you don't feel like going to the course, you can always cancel it at a later date.

Come on Future! You're NOT projecting an attractive option to her. Your words back to her were a little on the wimpy side. Become more assertive. Become demanding. PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN dammit! Don't back out of mediation!

Do you want to know what makes me FARKIN ANGRY about your W? She didn't have money to pay for the mediator right? So where the fark did she find this money now for an all expense paid funfest in Europe? If she's got money to burn... let the lawyers burn it. Your attitude should be, "Listen here you little hussy, don't come to a gunfight carrying a knife." From now on I get what I want, when I want it and if I want it. This is D. I'm putting ME first.

Sorry for the spew... I'm just trying to give you some pointers and hopefully stir you into action.
Posted By: BeingMe Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 09:41 PM
Look, she crossed the boundaries, and she knows it. Now, she wants you to be pleasant about it. What world is she living on? Forgiveness takes time. And it needs a person capable of being sorry for what they did. Note: your Subject Title. Why would you need to forgive something she doesn't regret.

She is manipulating you. I can only assume, so that she can get whatever she wants with just a smile and a little bit of pleasant interaction. She didn't tell you that she was thinking of getting back --- because she wasn't. She lied. Why didn't she say so before you had to set up your boundaries and start moving on?

You don't see this very clearly because you are too close to the sitch. But, we on this remote forum, who only go by what you say, can see it. If you are telling the truth, then she is not. She is playing the game of getting as much out of Future as she can before signing the divorce papers.

In my opinion, of course. Take care.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 10:37 PM
In mine too.

The true character of a person shows by how they treat you, when they are not in a position to GET anything from you.

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 10:38 PM
You folks are essentially right on. It's of course not quite black and white. If you go back and read over what my W and I said to each other this past fall you'll see she was definitely conflicted about everything. Her seeing our youngest daughter crying and pleading with her for us all to live together again, and her reaching out and wrapping her arms around me and not letting go. Her putting our family pictures up in her living room for the kids to see. I don't go in her house, so they weren't there for me to see. Her asking me if I could forgive her if I knew everything.

I agree that she didn't DO anything about it, and that's where I know I am right in my response. She needed to DO something. She needed to make sure I KNEW she didn't want to lose me, instead of vaguely flirting and giving mixed signals. It was intolerable for me.

Was I right in taking a hard stance? Well, I would have been right doing just about anything, since she left me. I was under no obligation to do anything one way or the other, and that's what she tries to manipulate. She wants ME to feel guilty for not accomodating her needs through all this. It's ridiculous. She tells me her heart was broken, that's why she was acting the way she was. What am I supposed to do with that? I have been trying to take care of her for so long that it's just automatic for me.

The conflict and misery of my situation was again illustrated this morning when I got a voice message on my cell phone from my W's phone. She let my youngest daughter call me and say "Daddy, I love you." I hate that I have to hear that over a cell phone message rather than in person, but I know many people have a much worse situation, both here on this forum, and in other aspects of life (parents deployed to war zones, etc), so I'm trying to stay positive and appreciate what I have, which is plenty.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 10:48 PM
I don't know if this will help you any but when our separation was almost complete I went through an awful stage of anger. It was almost as bad as when my H left the first time.

One would think we would be thrilled this BS is coming to an end (even if it didn't end how we had hoped or wanted it to) but for crying out loud it *does* have to end in some fashion or everybody involved will continue to destruct.

Your W sounds much like my H. Mad that we can't read minds. Mad that we did as they wanted (let them go) but didn't keep asking what was going on their heads. Why bother? All of it was a lie anyhow. The night before our separation was finalized my H gave me the most passionate speech I have ever heard come from his mouth. How he didn't care if it took the rest of his life but he would work until his dying day to earn my trust and respect back and make things right between us. He also said he knew I did everything in my power to turn this situation around and I deserved better. He said he understands and accepts I have no reason to trust him but he would work, work, work until I did.

And then I NEVER heard from him again other than a few e-mails about assets and another e-mail to tell me what a terrible person I was for not wishing him a happy T-day. He reminds me of OJ Simpson who spent years looking for his W's killer on golf courses (note to OJ: to find your W's killer look in the mirror).

I think this surge of anger is normal before things finalize. My attny said that but he could have been just trying to make me feel better... who knows.

I don't disagree this (our, yours, mine) situation is riddled with conflict and misery. That is not to say we don't appreciate what we do have because I know we both do. But the conflict and misery is very real.

One day we will get a beer (wine, cocktail.. whatever strikes your fancy) and find some small aspect of this horrid experience to laugh at (that is why we need booze, it helps smile
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 10:55 PM
Future,

I know you are hurting. This sucks, pure and simple.

The fact is, there are people on these forums (Hope4Us comes to mind) who took an INCREDIBLY patient, softer stance (altho even HE coupled it with aggressive exposure; it's really only the LENGTH of his patience that was remarkable), and it worked.

And there are DOZENS who have done that, and it hasn't.

And there are people who take the strong stance, and it works (Coach, me, for just two examples).

And yet there are plenty who tried that and ultimately, it hasn't, because at the end of the day it's still the walkaway spouse's choice as to what they want to do.

There is no ONE WAY. But I also believe, in my heart of hearts, that even if you make a HORRIBLE MISTAKE, and choose the wrong way? But you are basically loving and genuine, and still authentically "you" as you do so? And you treat your WAS with respect and courtesy?

I believe that it really doesn't make a difference, one way or another, and that if you two were MEANT TO BE, as a couple, and if she GENUINELY LOVED YOU, and would RESPECT YOUR BOUNDARIES . . . that you can't screw it up.

I believe that, I really do. I believe that had she really been sincere that she wanted to make this work, then NEITHER way -- the "tough love" or the "softer stance" -- would have blown your chances out of the water.

See, the dirty little secret here is, all we really do around here is play the percentages. Try to help people maximize their chances for success. And after studying literally THOUSANDS of affairs the past six years, my experience has been that "tough love" -- aggressive confrontation and exposure, maximum strength legal stance -- coupled with civility, truthfulness, character and loving detachment . . . is 10x more effective than the "Little Bo-Peep" method (you know, "leave them alone, and they'll come home, wagging their tails behind them"), and 20x more effective than the "try to be their best friend, and 'win them over' method."

You did your best. Hold your head up. And it ain't necessarily over, either.

Puppy
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 11:19 PM
Quote:

Look, she crossed the boundaries, and she knows it. Now, she wants you to be pleasant about it. What world is she living on? Forgiveness takes time. And it needs a person capable of being sorry for what they did. Note: your Subject Title. Why would you need to forgive something she doesn't regret.


Exactly. That has been my problem all along, hence the name of the thread. She doesn't regret what she did, she doesn't want to regret it, and she doesn't want to give me the satisfaction of an apology for something she feels no remorse over.

I am sick of feeling so unvalued. I am sick of feeling like I need to work so hard to get scraps of appreciation. I am sick of feeling like I need to watch everything I say for fear I make the situation worse. I am getting so much more from other parts of my life, and I think it's time I left all this crap behind and put my all into what makes me feel good about myself.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 11:26 PM
I think my H still feels very sad he hurt me so deeply. I honestly don't doubt that for a minute. The problem is, feeling sad you hurt somebody isn't enough in this type of situation because if you were THAT sad about it, you would stop the behavior that is causing all the hurt.

I have no less than 1700 e-mails from my H that say "I never meant to hurt a hair on your head and I am sorry you are hurt but gotta go, OW doesn't want me talking to you and we are about to go out then come home and screw". He didn't say that verbatim but it was the general theme. Sorry you are hurt but I don't plan to take any accountability for my actions or stop hurting you.. but sorry you are.

Wine. Beer. Cocktail.
Posted By: chatterbug Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 11:42 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Quote:

Look, she crossed the boundaries, and she knows it. Now, she wants you to be pleasant about it. What world is she living on? Forgiveness takes time. And it needs a person capable of being sorry for what they did. Note: your Subject Title. Why would you need to forgive something she doesn't regret.


Exactly. That has been my problem all along, hence the name of the thread. She doesn't regret what she did, she doesn't want to regret it, and she doesn't want to give me the satisfaction of an apology for something she feels no remorse over.

I am sick of feeling so unvalued. I am sick of feeling like I need to work so hard to get scraps of appreciation. I am sick of feeling like I need to watch everything I say for fear I make the situation worse. I am getting so much more from other parts of my life, and I think it's time I left all this crap behind and put my all into what makes me feel good about myself.



I agree with what this guy said
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 11:43 PM
Quote:

There is no ONE WAY. But I also believe, in my heart of hearts, that even if you make a HORRIBLE MISTAKE, and choose the wrong way? But you are basically loving and genuine, and still authentically "you" as you do so? And you treat your WAS with respect and courtesy?

I believe that it really doesn't make a difference, one way or another, and that if you two were MEANT TO BE, as a couple, and if she GENUINELY LOVED YOU, and would RESPECT YOUR BOUNDARIES . . . that you can't screw it up.

I believe that, I really do. I believe that had she really been sincere that she wanted to make this work, then NEITHER way -- the "tough love" or the "softer stance" -- would have blown your chances out of the water.


That's been my fear all along. That she doesn't really love me, and doesn't really respect me. She decided a long time ago that I didn't deserve her love any more. Did she have valid reasons? Yes, some, but there were many good things in our life too. She threw in the towel a long time ago, and I've been trying to get her to pick it back up ever since. Our kids, our marriage, our memories, and even the warm vibe we feel when we talk just doesn't mean that much to her. She wants to be free to be with whomever she wants, and free to do whatever she wants.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 11:49 PM
Quote:

The fact is, there are people on these forums (Hope4Us comes to mind) who took an INCREDIBLY patient, softer stance (altho even HE coupled it with aggressive exposure; it's really only the LENGTH of his patience that was remarkable), and it worked.


This is the kind of the path I was on, and I think it did actually have a chance of working, but that's just it. I'm not sure I wanted it to work. I didn't think I could ever truly hold my head up in our marriage and get the respect I deserve if I just maintained a soft stance and waited until she finally had her fill of the single life, then decided maybe I wasn't so bad after all. I needed to call her out, to MAKE her show her true colors. As you say Puppy, if she did truly love me, my hard stance wouldn't have been met the way it was, at first with venomous anger, then secret plotting to get a better divorce agreement. She would have shown me sadness, and reached out and expressed regret for what she did.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 11:53 PM
Quote:

Your W sounds much like my H. Mad that we can't read minds. Mad that we did as they wanted (let them go) but didn't keep asking what was going on their heads. Why bother? All of it was a lie anyhow. The night before our separation was finalized my H gave me the most passionate speech I have ever heard come from his mouth. How he didn't care if it took the rest of his life but he would work until his dying day to earn my trust and respect back and make things right between us. He also said he knew I did everything in my power to turn this situation around and I deserved better. He said he understands and accepts I have no reason to trust him but he would work, work, work until I did.

And then I NEVER heard from him again other than a few e-mails about assets and another e-mail to tell me what a terrible person I was for not wishing him a happy T-day. He reminds me of OJ Simpson who spent years looking for his W's killer on golf courses (note to OJ: to find your W's killer look in the mirror).


Wow. Weird. Love the OJ Simpson joke!

My W has periodically sent me messages indicating her great sorrow over all this. They were never backed up with anything real either.
Posted By: motherof3 Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/14/10 11:55 PM
I understand the fear/emotion all to well. Every day I have to ask myself.

"Do I really want to be in an R with someone who doesn't love me?" Don't I deserve better?

I know the right answers, but it is hard for me to keep this in perspective.

Unfortunately you will never 'get' her to to anything. She has to do this all on her own.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/15/10 12:11 AM
Quote:

You did your best. Hold your head up. And it ain't necessarily over, either.


Thanks. I will.

The thing is, I actually think I could have had her back had I been able to consistently employ the right strategy. In my case, I needed to do my light, funny, flirty thing, coupled with complete detachment. She was intrigued by me, no doubt. She sought me out, she wanted to spend time with me. I just needed to maintain the air of complete detachment, and let her do the pursuing. That's where I failed, because I was hurting so much, and I was so distraught over our kids, that I'd react each time she'd give me hope, which kept degrading her attraction. I needed to hold the line, as gucci preaches, and I failed. At least I know I failed because of how much I loved her and my family, and how much I wanted my family restored, and my kids' pain to end. I can't regret that.

And yes, it's not necessarily over, but my hope is essentially gone. I just want to move on and try to be happy.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/15/10 12:19 AM
Quote:

Can I ask you a favor? I don't know if it's possible... but could you put a spanner in the works of her plans? Those days in February... can you take leave? I mean... something always comes up urgent at work doesn't it? How about finding something that coincides with her days and say... "Sorry W, I can't. I have a course scheduled for that week and I can't cancel it." ... See where I'm going here? Shirt happens IRL. If you don't feel like going to the course, you can always cancel it at a later date.

Come on Future! You're NOT projecting an attractive option to her. Your words back to her were a little on the wimpy side. Become more assertive. Become demanding. PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN dammit! Don't back out of mediation!

Do you want to know what makes me FARKIN ANGRY about your W? She didn't have money to pay for the mediator right? So where the fark did she find this money now for an all expense paid funfest in Europe? If she's got money to burn... let the lawyers burn it. Your attitude should be, "Listen here you little hussy, don't come to a gunfight carrying a knife." From now on I get what I want, when I want it and if I want it. This is D. I'm putting ME first.

Sorry for the spew... I'm just trying to give you some pointers and hopefully stir you into action.


If I refuse to watch the kids while she goes, she'll just make other arrangements that will be harder on the kids. They'll stay with one of her friends or something.

I hear you though, and I am getting dam* fed up with her. Perhaps I should reply like this:


W, you realize you're not going to have any time with the kids for two and half weeks?! And this is after you BEGGED me not to take them anywhere after Christmas because you couldn't bear the thought of being away from them? And how are you paying for all this? You must have plenty of money, so I don't think you need the increase in support I was offering.

Also, know that if OM is in any way involved in this, you've just lost any chance of ever getting the kids passports, since you obviously lied right to my face when you said it was over and you weren't involved with him any more, and proved I can't trust you to be truthful with me."

Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/15/10 12:25 AM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
If I refuse to watch the kids while she goes, she'll just make other arrangements that will be harder on the kids.

And that's why you'll cancel your arrangements at the last minute.

Hmm... your email sounds a little weak and needy. NOT ASSERTIVE enough. I've got to get something to eat and watch a movie... I'll try pop back in a little later and re-word it for you.
Posted By: Deep Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/15/10 02:14 AM
Hi future, your sitch does suck and I'm sorry to read of it. Part of it reminds me a musing post I put up some time back on how the betrayed spouse often as this need for a sense of empathy and justice.

I totally get how you need your W to tell you she is remorseful and she wants you / the M. The truth is sadly, proably closer to that of her not wanting to lose you as an option, a standby, a fallback. The way she feels right now just isn't in line with what your ideal may be. It's your call whether you want to hang in there and work on things till the day comes when she is closer to where you wish her to be.

As Puppy puts it, there are variations of the hard / soft stance, even many variations of when and how you apply them, and if you apply diferent tactics at different points of the sitch. If you look at knittedscarf's threads, she can arguably be said to have (perhaps unconsciously) used tough love and got results that many LBS would kill for. However, it seems it was more tough period than tough love, she wasn't just acting "as if". Whether one chooses to use the tough approach to get a result, and ease up in the acceptance of remorse / forgiveness part is unpredictable.

And don't buy any of your W's bullcrap for a second. People don't have As because of a broken heart, perhaps more of a broken conscience.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/15/10 04:40 AM
Quote:

Hmm... your email sounds a little weak and needy. NOT ASSERTIVE enough. I've got to get something to eat and watch a movie... I'll try pop back in a little later and re-word it for you.


I wasn't going to send an e-mail response. I was planning on a verbal response, and was just throwing out ideas. Reading it back now, it doesn't sound right to me either. Perhaps I'll start by telling her I'm not sure if I can cover that whole period, and that I'll get back to her. And I won't say anything about where she's going. I may say something about how she obviously has plenty of money, and doesn't need an increase in support.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/15/10 04:50 AM
Quote:

Hi future, your sitch does suck and I'm sorry to read of it. Part of it reminds me a musing post I put up some time back on how the betrayed spouse often as this need for a sense of empathy and justice.


Exactly. I guess I feel like if I got empathy and justice, it would take away my pain, but that's probably an illusion.

Quote:

I totally get how you need your W to tell you she is remorseful and she wants you / the M. The truth is sadly, proably closer to that of her not wanting to lose you as an option, a standby, a fallback. The way she feels right now just isn't in line with what your ideal may be. It's your call whether you want to hang in there and work on things till the day comes when she is closer to where you wish her to be.


Again, exactly. The timing of her reaching out to me over the past year coincided exactly with the times when her A was on the rocks. I was clearly her backup. It's so cruel, I don't even know if she's concious of it. And yes, she definitely isn't in line with my ideal. Do I want to hang in? Right now? No. I want to surround myself with people who value me.

Quote:

As Puppy puts it, there are variations of the hard / soft stance, even many variations of when and how you apply them, and if you apply diferent tactics at different points of the sitch. If you look at knittedscarf's threads, she can arguably be said to have (perhaps unconsciously) used tough love and got results that many LBS would kill for. However, it seems it was more tough period than tough love, she wasn't just acting "as if". Whether one chooses to use the tough approach to get a result, and ease up in the acceptance of remorse / forgiveness part is unpredictable.


Like I said in my previous post, I have a pretty good idea what would have worked in my case, but I didn't have it in me to stick with it.

Quote:

And don't buy any of your W's bullcrap for a second. People don't have As because of a broken heart, perhaps more of a broken conscience.


She wasn't talking about a broken heart from me, she was talking about OM. She was saying that she was brokenhearted from the end of her A, and so she wasn't able to offer me anything, and she didn't want to lean on me emotionally. So she was staying away, which I perceived as rejection.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/15/10 05:08 AM
Breakdown of why your response is off...

W, you realize you're not going to have any time with the kids for two and half weeks?! And this is after you BEGGED me not to take them anywhere after Christmas because you couldn't bear the thought of being away from them?

Reworded: Our children are just about to face one of the most traumatic events of their lives. Do you think your leaving for 2 1/2 weeks is wise? What kind of message do you think you're giving them?

And how are you paying for all this? You must have plenty of money, so I don't think you need the increase in support I was offering.

You have no rights to demand explanations from her. The above sounds very "whining amd hurt" rephrase to:

First you tell me you cannot afford mediation and now you have the funds for a vacation? In light of these new developments, I'd like you to reimburse me for half the costs of the mediation and as of now am withdrawing my offer for increased support

Also, know that if OM is in any way involved in this, you've just lost any chance of ever getting the kids passports, since you obviously lied right to my face when you said it was over and you weren't involved with him any more, and proved I can't trust you to be truthful with me."[/quote]

TOO whiny again... rephrase:

If you persist with your vacation plans I will need a contact number for you 24/7 along with the address of all the places you are staying in case I need to contact you for emergencies. You have proven yourself to be a compulsive liar and a cheat, so my trust in you is BELOW zero. Should I find out you're still involved in any way, means or form with OM you can kiss the kids passports goodbye.

Hope this helps.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/15/10 07:55 PM
How you doing today Future?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/15/10 11:12 PM
I am sick today, so I don't have much energy to write.

My W is pushing hard to get our legal separation done. She is pestering the mediator, asking when they can get the papers done, asking how much money is required, etc. She has offered to pony up the money as soon as the mediator is ready.

I haven't replied to her request about the trip she wants to take. Also, she's not saying it's a vacation. She says she's signed up for a conference. That's my dilemma. She's intertwined her business with OM's country and city. That's part of the whole passport issue.
Posted By: Gnosis Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/15/10 11:19 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I am sick today, so I don't have much energy to write.

Sorry to hear that. Get well soon.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
My W is pushing hard to get our legal separation done. She is pestering the mediator, asking when they can get the papers done, asking how much money is required, etc. She has offered to pony up the money as soon as the mediator is ready.

Dunno if there's anything you can do to delay that. If there is... go for it.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I haven't replied to her request about the trip she wants to take.

No rush. You've got some time.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
She says she's signed up for a conference. That's my dilemma. She's intertwined her business with OM's country and city. That's part of the whole passport issue.

That's a tough one. I wouldn't bend on the passport issue.

Get well soon.
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/16/10 12:37 AM
Future, I'm pretty sure that my H is off with the OW this weekend. I don't know, and I'm not sure that I care. Somehow, I've kind of decided that she can have him. I don't know if that's right, but I've decided I want to be with people who shoot straight and who love me. And there are a lot of people in my life like that. I don't want to be with someone who makes my head spin around and acts like a 15 year old with a crush on someone else. Life goes on. If your kids stay with you maybe you can look at it as a way to have fun with them. Do something cool. Go somewhere. Don't worry about her. You need to cooperate. Maybe someday you will need to go somewhere and need her to watch the kids..

For the international travel, don't think she's going to take your kids and never return. International travel does open kids eyes to other ways of living, and it could be good for them to see that...at some point. My guess is that they aren't ready to see their mom with a new "guy" in her life, though. That would be my concern for my kids. Not that they would never come back, but that they would be very confused and brokenhearted to see their mom actng romantically with another man on a vacation--which is much more intense than just having someone drop by from time to time. I'd take that approach with her. My friend made the mistake of bringing new men into her children's lives after her divorce, and it was very confusing and not fair to them. With every break up, there was a new loss. But tell her that in the future, its fine for them to travel...either to a different country or AFTER the divorce is over and once she KNOWS that OM is the one she is going to be with. If she doesn't know that yet, then she shouldn't involve the kids. It isn't fair.

Jeez Future. I feel bad for you. She is pushing all your buttons. Its not about "playing" the cards right anymore, though. If she wanted to have a relationship with you, she would have done it or she would have told you her struggles. At least if she is a grown up, she should. I don't think that these games are good--that you should have "acted" a certain way. You "acted" yourself. You are a good person. She wants to be with someone else. Period. She could regret that someday..and she probably will, but do you want to waste your life waiting for 10 or 20 yars? For you, Future, no regrets. You did your best. She didn't bite. Move on...
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/17/10 04:07 PM
musclegal, I know the conflict and ambivalence you must feel over what your H is doing. You can see his flaws and how he treats you, and you know you should reject him, but your bond to him still tugs. Trust me, I know. Over time that tug will fade. And yes, we all deserve to be with people who value us and treat us with respect.

Regarding the international travel, I understand what you're saying, but you don't know my W. As in the scenario I described, I never said she would take them and never return. She would take them, get herself into a situation she refuses to give up, then use the kids as leverage to "negotiate" a new arrangement, which would necessarily involve me not seeing them for months at a time. I'm not willing to risk that. Once my kids leave this country, my power and control over what happens to them is gone, and I won't risk it. Maybe as the years go on, and I become convinced I can trust her, but definitely not now, or soon.

My W has been good about not bringing OM into the kids lives, she has kept it completely separate. If she brings the kids halfway around the word right to his doorstep, I doubt she would maintain that boundary.

You know, I don't feel my buttons being pushed that much any more. It's been too long. Her power over me just isn't that strong any more. I have a lot of good things and good people in my life now. She doesn't hold the keys to my happiness anymore.

Thank you, you're right, I've just "acted" myself, and she continues to reject me, so what else can I do? That's one thing I haven't done through this is try to be someone I'm not.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/17/10 04:35 PM
More bizarre behavior from my W, but I've given up trying to understand it.

Yesterday I go to my daughters' gymnastics, and my W essentially ignores me and doesn't acknowledge me, even as I walk right up and start talking to my son. So now I'm getting the silent treatment I guess. I take my son to his basketball game, which I'm coaching, and my W shows up there after the girls' gymnastics is over. Again, she barely acknowledges me. After the game, she comes over and gives our son a drink. Just to jab her a bit I smile and say "What, none for me?" She gives me a dirty look and says nothing. So ok, she's really pissed at me, I get it.

That was transition time for the kids, so I take them and we go out to lunch. My oldest daughter and son get into a fight, and I ask what's going on. My daughter has tears in her eyes and says "I miss mommy." I just give her a long hug and say "I know, this is hard. It's not really fair is it?" She nods yes, and I say "Some things in life aren't fair."

She seems to calm down after that and we start having a fun day. That evening, my W pulls an unprecedented act, and shows up at my house unannounced. I go to the door perplexed, she is holding a little bag and very meekly asks "I made some brownies for the kids, can you give them to them?" The kids knew she was at the door, so I respond "You want to come in and give them yourself?" She perks up and says "Sure!" She comes in and the kids are all spread out on the sectional sofa, we just finished playing Wii games, and were settling down to watch the football game. She gives the kids each a brownie, and says "H, if you weren't allergic to chocolate, I would have brought one for you too." She sits and visits for a couple minutes while the kids eat their brownies. Then she says goodbye to the kids and gets up to leave. She sees a picture from my marathon I had framed and says "H, that picture looks great. Wow." I replied "Yeah, they took a bunch, but that one really come out great." Then she sadly says "Well, goodbye. Thanks, H."

What's cool for me is, the whole thing didn't really affect me at all. I just rolled with it, and when she was gone, we just went back to what we were doing. It had no lingering emotional effects.
Posted By: antlers Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/17/10 05:04 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
What's cool for me is, the whole thing didn't really affect me at all. I just rolled with it, and when she was gone, we just went back to what we were doing. It had no lingering emotional effects.


That's great man! Maybe you're detatching, for real, from her. Keep doing what your doing...seems to be working for ya'.
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/18/10 05:40 PM
Great Future! My H hasn't called our boys for a week, so I'm sure he went to see OW. I feel like all three of us are moving on, even though that is hard for my kids. I'm just expecting roller coaster with them...they will see it, too...I want to be with you, no I don't, yes I do, no I don't...

I'm glad you are being a good dad through all of this. You are doing a really good job. You are behaving grown up and are there for your kids. That's what's important right now.

HOORAY FOR DETACHMENT!!!
Posted By: chatterbug Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/18/10 06:35 PM
Very good weekend Future. Keep with the as - if
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/27/10 10:15 PM
Been relatively quiet lately. I've had minimal interactions with W, other than Sunday evening, when her brother and his kids were visiting MIL. I brought the kids over to see their cousins, and W was there for several hours. We chatted almost the whole time, and were pleasant with each other. As usual, the longer we were together, the closer we got. When she first arrived, we kept our distance from each other, but by the end of the evening, we were sitting a couple feet from each other on the sofa having a continuous conversation. There was a palpable tension in the room though.

As usual, I'm struggling to resolve all this stuff in my head. I need to forgive myself for how I failed my marriage. I eventually need to forgive her for how she failed, for my own peace, if nothing else. She clings to this notion that our marriage was already dead before her A started. Hogwash in my opinion, but what's the point in arguing about it, or even thinking about it? When we opened back up to each other last fall, she seemed to be singing a different tune about it, but she couldn't say she regretted it, as indicated in the title of this thread. She did say it was wrong to do while we were still living together as man and wife. That was at least something, but the way she said it was meant as "I should have waited until I moved out", not "I shouldn't have done it at all." Not exactly a validation of the pain I endured, is it?

Was she really contemplating coming back when I dropped the bomb on her? She says she was. Some of the things she said over the few previous months made me think she was looking for a way back that preserved her dignity and didn't make her feel like a criminal in our marriage. I thought I gave that to her, but when I got so little back, I felt like I had to push her away to protect myself. The pain I've endured over the last year has left me so reluctant to put my heart at risk again. Still, I'm tormenting myself. Should I have just been more patient and waited for her heartbreak over OM to wane before I made any move or decision? She was offering me so little. I didn't think our M could ever be right again if all I did was wait for her to return to me, on her own schedule, and on her own terms. She needed to give me more. When I didn't get it, I needed to push her away, so I did, and now I struggle with doubt over it. I have to stop.

Her reaction since then does show me she wasn't in any way prepared to legitmately reconcile. She is going to OM's country for two weeks in a month, but she claims it's not to see OM, and she won't be staying with OM. She says she's going to get training for her work, and she's staying with a female friend of hers from her childhood who she has reconnected with. I can't believe her of course. She's travelling thousands of miles to the city OM lives in, and is saying it has nothing to do with him? Yeah, right.

This morning I dropped our youngest daughter off with her, and we were pleasant with each other, quickly discussing the kids' situations. I'm leaving on a business trip tomorrow morning, and she said "Have a nice trip", then made an awkward move like she was going to hug me, then pulled back. I said goodbye, and she again made the same awkward move. I kept my distance, and made my exit.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/27/10 10:39 PM
Hi Future,

I am sorry you are struggling so much.

FWIW last Jan. when my H was at one of his meanest points he also told me he was thinking of "coming back" after the fact. Much later he admitted to me he was never thinking of coming back but his guilt was so overwhelming he told himself (and me) that to ease his mind.

I struggle with the same thing. My H has NO CLUE what it feels like to know your spouse is having an ongoing affair and the absolute pain it causes.

Maybe getting out of town for a few days will do you some good.

Take care, my friend!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/27/10 10:59 PM
Thanks CityGirl. Yeah, I'm struggling some, but I'm living my life too. I can't seem to turn off the continuous loop in my head that goes over and over and over all this. It'll fade with time.

Yes, it'll definitely be good to get out of town, but I'm concerned about my kids. They are struggling with this too, and I'm worried leaving right now is just more for them to deal with. A few days ago my son said to me out of the blue "Daddy, if I had a genie my first wish would be for you and Mommy to not be separated or divorced." The poor guy is going to be holding onto that wish his whole childhood, and it breaks my heart.
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/29/10 12:38 PM
Future, a really good book for kids is called "Dinosaur Divorce". It's a kind of cartoon, but my kids read it with the school counsellor and both thought it was helpful. She loaned it to me to re-read with them. This does suck for the kids, and for you. Its so hard and embarassing, too.
I've been reading about John and Elizabeth Edwards. Its so interesting how the one who had the affair will do whatever they need to do to "save" themselves from their guilt. I agree with CityGirl. My H said he wanted to stay with me for months, and, like you, he gave me nothing...everything was about him. In the end, they just want you to make the D decision, I think, so they won't feel so bad. So on some level they can say to themselves that they tried.
Posted By: Onthemountaintop Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 01/29/10 03:33 PM

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
As usual, I'm struggling to resolve all this stuff in my head. I need to forgive myself for how I failed my marriage.


Hi Future. Why do you need forgiveness – she’s the one who had the affair and has yet to close that door completely with a slam! You may have been a ‘bad’ H, or Ok, or good, or excellent, but she made a choice that involved sex and much more.

Originally Posted By: futureunknown
I eventually need to forgive her for how she failed, for my own peace, if nothing else.


Do you? Maybe you need to decide if you are a person that can handle never knowing 100% that your wife would never break your trust in this way again. Forgive her for her anger, toying with the kids’ emotions, not giving you a drink while giving it to your kids – yes, makes sense to forgive or forget. But can you trust her as your wife. If not, move on unless/until you decide that you can. You made it clear you do not want to be her backup, so don’t be.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/04/10 09:48 AM
I think you've done remarkably well future. Did you do all things perfectly? No, so welcome to the club of humanity. This is a LONG post but I'm on a roll and didn't post to you for so long as you were getting great advice/still are. But as to a big issue I struggled with...FORGIVENESS and what it means...and does NOT mean....

As for forgiveness, as I understand it, yes, DO IT. For you. The anger at the injustices you've endured, the things done to you, still have to be let go of or the anger will consume you, not her.. The pain and deep hurt you feel at times are too much to carry, let alone if you truly want detachment and GAL to work. So you let go of it, for you. The WAS does not even need to know you forgave them. I found I had to turn over my pain and anger over to God, b/c I didn't know how to let it go in another way. (Marianne WIlliamson wrote about this in her book "Return to Love" --a tad new age for some folks but her exercises on forgiveness and letting go, are SO good. (OR at least they were good for me. I never saw forgivness growing up in my parent's home. I also felt my h didn't "deserve" forgiveness and at some level, I worried that if I forgave him, he would not "Get" how much pain he had caused and worse still, he might do it again IF I forgave him...little did I know then, that NOT forgiving him
made me look, well, "unforgiving" and plus, it doesn't give the WAS/ straying spouse any room to maneuver in, or anything to do to redeem themselves. I didn't know how to do it but I remembered wasting my junior yr of high school pining for a boy who cheated on me. HE didn't know I was pining, he was not "hurt" by MY PAIN...he was partying having a blast...I was a fool to not let go. So as an adult, I knew I needed some tools for actually doing this forgiving/letting go deal. So I did the exercises in the book, before my h would likely call, to cope with the conversations and to be fully present for our children, & I would CALM down, no obsessing and NO Losing it and turning it ino then, I would detach. Joined groups, GAL, etc....letting go is truly for you. At least primarily...now there's a second part to that comment and it is not mandatory like the first one is, imho...but stilllllll

This "2nd part" is what to do, if you actually would want a recon with your w - but simply think it's too little too late and even if you are ready to move on and end the M totally in your mind....as my DB coach told me, "Keep the Road Home Paved and Smooth..." Some LBSers make it too hard on purpose. They want to punish; they want to show them, they want to be the WAS that never comes back so they are never rejected again. Is it natural? Yes. Is it healthy? Well, No. If you cannot reconcile with your x, WE GET IT...I'm just saying don't drag it out pretending you can, or that your list of requirements is something they even what to hear early on. I think you'fe nere Be on your way and open to changes in you and her and see wh

As someone with 2 family members who div and remarried their exes, (years later- I must add), I can say I have witnessed it. It happens. Two couples divorced and they did indeed remarry. And Both couples were happier the 2nd time around! 13 years now my cousin and his wife have been remarried, (they have a son and daughter) and they both changed after the divorce. Eventually became friends again, over time, since they had a kid together. I know they dated others for awhile, but as I recall, there was anger at the start. Then pain....then some hopelessness then civility at kids' functions, then friendship, then banter, then flirting and then...dating and recommiting. Whole thing took 8 years to get back to the vows (they more or less reconciled earlier but it wasn't official until 8 full years passed...)

In contrast, My uncle and aunt divorced (I think SHE filed.) and he pursued her for awhile. She liked the attention but didn't think things would work out for them down the road, e.g., "too much water under the bridge", he wouldn't change or he'd never let her forget how much she hurt him, too many people know, etc.... But at least she felt safe around him at famiy events. No scenes, etc. One day after 5 years of being div, my uncle simply asked her if she was "happier now"? And she said "not really" and he said "what if we try again, and do things differently this time?" And she agreed....and it worked. And when my uncle died 3 years back, his wife and kids were at his bedside as they should have been but if they'd stayed divorced, their kids would never have seen a love renewed, forgiveness given, hurts let go of, and recommitment. It's a legacy that they carry with them, along with what divorce feels like... Sometimes you choose between being "happy" or being "right"...

I think one huge reason some couples don't get back together even when the WAS wants to, is b/c the WAS assumes the LBSer will make it too hard on them to return, (maybe b/c the LBSer told them never to come back, etc) or maybe b/c they think that they'll never live it down, or the LBSer will make them jump through hoops for so long only to still not find the WAS sufficiently repentant or trustworthy, etc, and the WAS will feel distrusted, still lacking and that creates a cycle...AND let's face it, no one's hands are completely clean in these things. How many of we women KNEW our M's and our H's were getting o still NOT trusting and still lacking. Sure, sometimes this reflects laziness on the part of the WAS who wants it to be easy ("hey I SAID I was sorry...") and that the WASer is NOT worth a retry. Certainly that can be true...still, there's another possibility. What about the WAS who wants back in but either b/c the LBSer is terrified so much that they make a frickin' mountain to climb that no one can climb, b/c really they are simply too afraid to trust again OR the LBser SAYS they want to try and trust again but the damn anger is still there and the desire to punish some more and "Teach a lesson" and prove this and that, and blah blah blah, holding the sword of Damacles over the WAS's head...well I think a lot of m's fail b/c in the end, the LBSer cannot or will not forgive. And so, the M fails and at least part of that is the LBSer's fault. Imagine a WAS who does NOT have an A, but leaves in part for good reasons--Ie. the LBSer was mistreating them, badly. So the WAS leaves and the LBSer takes on the role of victim b/c they say they want it to work...who really is the one ending the m then? The one who caused the spouse to leave, or what?

No hard and fast rules at times. WE try to be honest with ourselves and each other and come here for feedback...I think you've done well. I would not trust your w taking the kids overseas in a million years unless I knew the country she was taking them to had a treaty signed with us enforcing child custody agreements. She'll rationalize what she wants and say "kids are resilient" and "you'll be fine, move on" etc as that is the modern MC mantras....

But I don't know your wife. Did you see that Brazilian man in the news, who lost his son for 5 years after his ex w kidnapped the boy for "a vacation back home" and then she died, leaving their son with her new h...he spent a fortune and was a L himself..and I know my sil's first h took their d3 d's overseas and hid them in a refugee camp for 18 months...nice. She had to petition Congress and go on Larry King to lobby for a change in the law and pressure the family to reveal their whereabouts, to get her girls back. When she got them...they were not the same and now 8 years have passed and they're kind of...okay. It was a big deal...nightmare. So be careful...your w may or may not have been considering a comback to the m. What stopped her? Your stance?

I don't recall the details of your requests but I assume you wanted transparency and some MC, other than her own, and no contact with om? Sounds like The "basics" of an LBSer who's WAS had an A, right?

No excessive snooping or stalking, but she had to meet the basics of re-establishing trust and in return, you'd promise not to throw this in her face the rest of your m whenver you fought, and not to hold it against her or assume you should get your way in other unrelated matters b/c hell, she' "owes you"...?? That's pretty cool.

You nailed it on the head awhile back when you admitted being wrong to do something to punish her. "Teaching her life's lessons" and "punishing" or getting revenge, is SO NOT your job...life will do that, and God. But you know this now. I think standing consistently firmly but keeping the road home paved and smooth, is the path to take. Even to the finish line and beyond...

What does your wife need to know? That m to you in the future, would not be a repeat of the m you had. On your end, you'd do some things differenly if you had them to do over....and on HER end, she'd handle things a hell of a lot better and VERY differently than she did before. I personally think she KNOWS she's the common denominator is a couple R/M's now and that she did not handle the first 2 M's well. SHE KNOWS THIS and as much as she wants to blame you...she also knows you're a good guy. She has some crap to work out on her end. Should you wait? No! GAL!!

But should you assume she's always having great sex with OM's & they always amuse her, laughing hard at her wit and she's laughing hard b/c they are all so darn hilarious and great in bed, all the time, except when she does not want it, and her OM's make a ton of money they like spending on her and they have the same interests...(OR NOT...no, he's foreign and interesting and exotic and NO ONE can compete with that...for awhile. But when "Guido" doesn't get her jokes, or says some anti_American thing, or is smug or moody like those guys get...she'll have to wonder what it is about her that cannot sustain a long term intimate relationship...too bad for her. The depth of her love is limited b/c she can only last so long. If that remains true, you are indeed better off finding a woman who can love and be loved, for life....

But let go of the anger and forgive her for all her omissions and commissions, for her searching externally for that which she should have found inside, and forgive yourself for lashing out now and then, or for the honest mistakes you made in the M, vowing not to repeat them in your next R with whomever....

God Bless, you've handled yourself so well, articulately, honestly and with growth. That's all we can aim for, that we get better, not bitter. You know? Do your best to know His will and to follow it, with love in your heart. God takes care of the rest, so leave those results up to HIM...and GAL, letting the past go.

(Speaking of going, I'm rambling b/c I'm tired and started this post an hour ago... tired SO, on that note, )...

((( hugs)))

j-
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/07/10 01:59 PM
Wow 25yrs! That is a really good lesson/summary for all of us! Thanks for posting!
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/10/10 06:02 AM
Thanks 25yearsmlc! I've been away on work travel, and trying to GAL, so I haven't been watching the board quite as much. Finally getting back to it.

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As for forgiveness, as I understand it, yes, DO IT. For you. The anger at the injustices you've endured, the things done to you, still have to be let go of or the anger will consume you, not her.. The pain and deep hurt you feel at times are too much to carry, let alone if you truly want detachment and GAL to work. So you let go of it, for you. The WAS does not even need to know you forgave them.


You know, I thought I was doing so much better when she was mired in her A, and the thought of reconciliation was far away. I felt so understanding, so willing to forgive, and I thought it was sincere, but when she started making a move back toward me, I was shocked how my anger roared back. From what I've read, it's a normal reaction. That she was so unwilling to allow me my anger warned me that she wasn't truly wanting to reconcile, but rather just wanted a safe backup plan.

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I also felt my h didn't "deserve" forgiveness and at some level, I worried that if I forgave him, he would not "Get" how much pain he had caused and worse still, he might do it again IF I forgave him...little did I know then, that NOT forgiving him
made me look, well, "unforgiving" and plus, it doesn't give the WAS/ straying spouse any room to maneuver in, or anything to do to redeem themselves.


That exactly describes how I feel. I did try to treat my W with forgiveness earlier last year, and I kept running into this thing inside me that fought against it, saying "She doesn't deserve it! She has to know what she did! She has to feel how much she hurt me!" Whenever that part won out, my W's moves toward me stopped, and she went further away. She has commented how she sees me oscillating back and forth between kindness and understanding, and anger. I tried to give her plenty of room to maneuver in, and I gave her a year of time. As far as I can tell, she doesn't think she needs any redeeming, although I wonder if that's true deep down.

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As someone with 2 family members who div and remarried their exes, (years later- I must add), I can say I have witnessed it. It happens. Two couples divorced and they did indeed remarry. And Both couples were happier the 2nd time around! 13 years now my cousin and his wife have been remarried, (they have a son and daughter) and they both changed after the divorce. Eventually became friends again, over time, since they had a kid together. I know they dated others for awhile, but as I recall, there was anger at the start. Then pain....then some hopelessness then civility at kids' functions, then friendship, then banter, then flirting and then...dating and recommiting. Whole thing took 8 years to get back to the vows (they more or less reconciled earlier but it wasn't official until 8 full years passed...)


If you look past all my posts over the last year, you'll see the civility has never left, the friendship is still there, and we still banter, flirt, and even dated a little. But it was all overshadowed by her ongoing A. Maybe I had unrealistic expectations about how she would react to me after her A ended (current state unknown). Maybe it does mean our future is truly unknown, but I have to look at it in the long term, and live for now knowing our M is over.

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I think one huge reason some couples don't get back together even when the WAS wants to, is b/c the WAS assumes the LBSer will make it too hard on them to return, (maybe b/c the LBSer told them never to come back, etc) or maybe b/c they think that they'll never live it down, or the LBSer will make them jump through hoops for so long only to still not find the WAS sufficiently repentant or trustworthy, etc, and the WAS will feel distrusted, still lacking and that creates a cycle...AND let's face it, no one's hands are completely clean in these things. How many of we women KNEW our M's and our H's were getting o still NOT trusting and still lacking. Sure, sometimes this reflects laziness on the part of the WAS who wants it to be easy ("hey I SAID I was sorry...") and that the WASer is NOT worth a retry. Certainly that can be true...still, there's another possibility. What about the WAS who wants back in but either b/c the LBSer is terrified so much that they make a frickin' mountain to climb that no one can climb, b/c really they are simply too afraid to trust again OR the LBser SAYS they want to try and trust again but the damn anger is still there and the desire to punish some more and "Teach a lesson" and prove this and that, and blah blah blah, holding the sword of Damacles over the WAS's head...well I think a lot of m's fail b/c in the end, the LBSer cannot or will not forgive. And so, the M fails and at least part of that is the LBSer's fault. Imagine a WAS who does NOT have an A, but leaves in part for good reasons--Ie. the LBSer was mistreating them, badly. So the WAS leaves and the LBSer takes on the role of victim b/c they say they want it to work...who really is the one ending the m then? The one who caused the spouse to leave, or what?


This is a definite possiblity in my situation, and regardless of how truthful she is being, my W is already throwing out judgements that I will "never let it go" and "always hold it over her". Funny reading your post, as my W has already given me your exact line "Hey, I said I was sorry", followed by the standard "What more do you want?" And yes, my hands are nowhere near clean. I've owned my failings to my W, as honestly as I could. I poured my heart out to her, a risky move, but she accepted everything I said with compassion and even love. We were trying to navigate an impossible minefield, but I was doing 90% of the work, and I needed more from her if I was going to continue.

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No hard and fast rules at times. WE try to be honest with ourselves and each other and come here for feedback...I think you've done well. I would not trust your w taking the kids overseas in a million years unless I knew the country she was taking them to had a treaty signed with us enforcing child custody agreements. She'll rationalize what she wants and say "kids are resilient" and "you'll be fine, move on" etc as that is the modern MC mantras....

But I don't know your wife. Did you see that Brazilian man in the news, who lost his son for 5 years after his ex w kidnapped the boy for "a vacation back home" and then she died, leaving their son with her new h...he spent a fortune and was a L himself..and I know my sil's first h took their d3 d's overseas and hid them in a refugee camp for 18 months...nice. She had to petition Congress and go on Larry King to lobby for a change in the law and pressure the family to reveal their whereabouts, to get her girls back. When she got them...they were not the same and now 8 years have passed and they're kind of...okay. It was a big deal...nightmare. So be careful...your w may or may not have been considering a comback to the m. What stopped her? Your stance?


I hate that I have to be so distrustful, but I trusted her completely, and she shattered that trust. She lied to me, used me, and manipulated me in a very ugly way. No matter what she says, I KNOW if she gets in her head that her life happiness necessiates her moving to OM's country, she will try to make it happen, and she will not leave the kids behind. So I have to maintain my hard stance that the kids don't leave the country. Signed treaties don't impress me, as Brazil was part of the Haig Convention, and should have immediately honored the American father's rights, but yet it was clogged in the courts for five years. That will NEVER be me, and the way I guarantee that is to never let them leave the country.

My W contends that MY behavior prevented her from returning to the M, but I don't buy it for a minute. She liked the idea of returning, but only on her terms, and her timetable, if at all. No way. That's no foundation for reconciliation. Maybe I should have been more patient, but the fact that she's running right back to OM's country speaks volumes about her true desire to reconcile.

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I don't recall the details of your requests but I assume you wanted transparency and some MC, other than her own, and no contact with om? Sounds like The "basics" of an LBSer who's WAS had an A, right?

No excessive snooping or stalking, but she had to meet the basics of re-establishing trust and in return, you'd promise not to throw this in her face the rest of your m whenver you fought, and not to hold it against her or assume you should get your way in other unrelated matters b/c hell, she' "owes you"...?? That's pretty cool.


We never got to the point of requests from me. I had one request, that she end her A, and she finally, apparently did so, but with anger and resentment. She gave me no opening for re-establishing trust. She said "Don't think this means anything to our marriage. We're still living separate lives. You can date if you want." After hanging in for a year, that was so unsatisfying, and made me feel completely disrespected, and that she was just trying to delay the painful process of legal separation until after the holidays. Something inside me reared up and said "Screw that!"

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You nailed it on the head awhile back when you admitted being wrong to do something to punish her. "Teaching her life's lessons" and "punishing" or getting revenge, is SO NOT your job...life will do that, and God. But you know this now. I think standing consistently firmly but keeping the road home paved and smooth, is the path to take. Even to the finish line and beyond...


I am (and she is) also concerned about my anger and desire to punish. When we are tyring to negotiate our legal separation, and I'm being particularly tough on an issue, she asks "Are you just trying to punish me?"

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What does your wife need to know? That m to you in the future, would not be a repeat of the m you had. On your end, you'd do some things differenly if you had them to do over....and on HER end, she'd handle things a hell of a lot better and VERY differently than she did before. I personally think she KNOWS she's the common denominator is a couple R/M's now and that she did not handle the first 2 M's well. SHE KNOWS THIS and as much as she wants to blame you...she also knows you're a good guy. She has some crap to work out on her end. Should you wait? No! GAL!!

But should you assume she's always having great sex with OM's & they always amuse her, laughing hard at her wit and she's laughing hard b/c they are all so darn hilarious and great in bed, all the time, except when she does not want it, and her OM's make a ton of money they like spending on her and they have the same interests...(OR NOT...no, he's foreign and interesting and exotic and NO ONE can compete with that...for awhile. But when "Guido" doesn't get her jokes, or says some anti_American thing, or is smug or moody like those guys get...she'll have to wonder what it is about her that cannot sustain a long term intimate relationship...too bad for her. The depth of her love is limited b/c she can only last so long. If that remains true, you are indeed better off finding a woman who can love and be loved, for life....


I think my W does see me quite differently now. I have no doubt she knows I will be different in my next R. And yes, I think deep down she knows she has a problem with long term R's. She is troubled by guilt over how she left both her M's.

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But let go of the anger and forgive her for all her omissions and commissions, for her searching externally for that which she should have found inside, and forgive yourself for lashing out now and then, or for the honest mistakes you made in the M, vowing not to repeat them in your next R with whomever....


I am trying to let go of my anger. As I've said countless times here, if it was just her and me I'd be so much better. It's seeing my kids suffer that keeps my anger going. IMO, there is no reason those kids have to endure a childhood from a broken home. They see us joking and laughing, and every time immediately say "Hey! You're not fighting! You shouldn't be separated!"

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God Bless, you've handled yourself so well, articulately, honestly and with growth. That's all we can aim for, that we get better, not bitter. You know? Do your best to know His will and to follow it, with love in your heart. God takes care of the rest, so leave those results up to HIM...and GAL, letting the past go.


Thank you so much for your words and advice. I will take it to heart.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/10/10 09:44 PM
My W still does things to make me wonder. Not so much about whether she wants to "come back", as that's really off the table now, certainly in the near term. The question is, what is our future? Will we have one?

She had to drop off a couple things for the kids last weekend. She picks Sunday at 6pm, right before the Superbowl starts. I'm home with the kids, got the pre-game on the big screen. I've got food and snacks all laid out and the kids are excited about a fun evening. I usually have a Superbowl party, but I had just returned from a week away on business, and I didn't want to deal with a party.

So my W comes in and gives me the things for the kids. My son comes running out and gives her a hug, and of course asks "Can you stay to watch the Superbowl?!" She looks at me and says "If Daddy says it's ok." My son gives me his big hopeful look, and I say "You can hang out for a while if you want." She perks up, smiles, and asks "Got any beer?" I said "Sure."

We had a nice time eating and watching the game. The kids were thrilled to have us all together. After the initial awkwardness waned, she starts asking me about my life, like she always does, and I start joking around with her a little bit. My oldest daughter immediately notes our friendliness and says we shouldn't be separated. My W says "I know it's confusing, isn't it?"

All this is standard cake eating for her, but she said something odd that maybe gave me a little visibility into how she perceives things between us. The kids wanted to show her the Wii dancing game, so we put it on. After the kids danced a couple songs, I offered her a controller and asked if she wanted to give it a try. She said in a half joking, half sad manner "No way. I'm not going to do it the first time in front of you and give you even more evidence that I'm a fool." I didn't say anything in response, but it made me a little sad. I've picked up that vibe before, when she denegrates herself in front of me. I don't know what to do with it. If I gave her some standard "Oh, I don't think you're foolish", she'll immediately perceive that as insincere, as she knows I do think she is being selfish and foolish. This is where Coach excels here. What would he say in response?

In what is an enormous 180 for me, I kept the controller and danced with the kids. She didn't say anything, but after I did, laughing and joking with the kids, I offered the contoller again and said "Come on. Give it a try." She took the controller this time and danced with the kids, having a great time. She got top score in her first dance, and I said "See, you're a natural." She said "I have got to get this game!"

She stayed through the first half of the Superbowl, then told the kids she had to go. They objected, but she said "This is your time with Daddy, and I have work to do at home." She put on her coat, said her goodbyes to the kids. I made no move toward her, I just said "Goodbye, W" from across the room, and she left.

Another whirlwind visit into my home. Funny, it's the home she dramatically declared she would never go back into a couple months ago.
Posted By: Onthemountaintop Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/10/10 11:29 PM
Originally Posted By: futureunknown
Another whirlwind visit into my home. Funny, it's the home she dramatically declared she would never go back into a couple months ago.


Maybe she's seeing that you are a great catch for her~
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/12/10 01:36 PM
Quote:

Maybe she's seeing that you are a great catch for her~


I don't know about that, but I do see that she doesn't want to lose me entirely.
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/12/10 11:08 PM
Future, if you can have some of that "family" time and not have it mess too much with your head, its really great. Its great for the kids and really probably good for you both in the long run--but again, if you can do it without it messing with your head. A friendship could lead to something between you in the future, or, at the very least, a friendship is better than an "enemyship" where the mom of your kids is concerned.
Hope you can do it without it setting you back. If you find that it does set you back, its time to pull out those boundaries again!
Posted By: flowmom Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/12/10 11:41 PM
I agree with musclegal. For children, being with both of their parents at the same time makes the world right.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/13/10 02:11 AM
I know you're right musclegal, but I've been so trained to spot and disallow cake eating that it doesn't feel right when we're all together. It was her choice to break up this family, and now she wants family time. I don't want a friendship or enemyship with her. I want a "nothingship" with her. Seeing her isn't affecting me the way it used to, but I'm definitely happiest when I can go days without any exposure to her at all. And I'm a better father when I'm happy.

It's very sad for the kids, and frustating for me, especially since she and I get along so well.
Posted By: musclegal Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/13/10 11:52 PM
I understand completely. The whole cake eating thing is so frustrating. I hope that someday I can spend time with XH and have it feel like "nothingship" for me. Some days it does feel like that and some days it feels like a set back. The kids always love it, though...our mediator said IF you can do it, its great for the kids. But if it takes your focus off them and makes you unhappy, then don't do it.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/15/10 07:02 PM
musclegal, why do you hope you can spend time with XH at all? I don't know why I'd ever want to spend any time with XW. Sure, the kids love it, but it just perpetuates their hope for mom and dad getting back together. The pain of seeing the continued disappointment in their faces afterwards isn't worth the temporary joy they might feel at the time. I think I disagree with your mediator, especially for little kids, who can't understand that it doesn't mean the family is back together. It seems so fake and hollow, and just confuses them.
Posted By: Onthemountaintop Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/15/10 07:10 PM
I don't know if there's something wrong with hope. False hope is a problem.

An explanation before might suffice. Little kids don't understand why daddy's away anyhow - they don't understand intimate relationships, just love.

Spending time regularily seems odd. But for the first few years, it might soften the blow to the little kids.

All the assumptions we have in N.America about divorce have led us to find kids are almost always hurt in a divorce. Myself, I think D is an option for those who need it, allowed by God. As such, I think there must be a good way to D without hurting the kids forever...maybe we just haven't found it.

Now, I'm here, so obviously I think D is a last resort. In our faith, divorce is the "most hated thing made permissible by God"
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/15/10 07:26 PM
I think D is the option when abuse is present, but if it's just an issue of resentment, lack of communication, and "giving up", then I think the pain children suffer is tragic and unnecessary.
Posted By: Onthemountaintop Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/15/10 08:27 PM
At what level does emotional abuse start, and resentment end?
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/15/10 08:33 PM
Resentment is essentially silent, and is a form of protest over perceived lack of respect. Emotional abuse involves yelling, name calling, criticizing, and is a form of control.
Posted By: futureunknown Re: my W doesn't regret her affair - 02/16/10 03:46 AM
Starting a new thread, as this one is way too long.

New thread:

new chapter with strange WAW
Hi guys --

Please start a new thread. This thread is getting a bit too long, so I'm locking it. Shorter threads improve the speed and flow of this online community.

Thanks.
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