I have the awful feeling in the pit of my stomach again.
I may be one of the success stories here, but now I am back. I of course, stopped dbing as I said I would after a period of time. And now, without even seeing it coming despite my past experience, my wife and I are once again in trouble.
After a brief argument last night, in which I pushed too much, she walked out and spent the night with a friend (platonic- female friend). We just spoke on the phone and she is not coming home tonight either.
All I can say is...here we go again. A warning to all - if you succeed, never stop dbing!!
I would add links to my previous posts from years ago, but don't remember how. Sorry folks.
I am so ruined by this, that I forgot to ask this question. Does anyone have any experience the second time around? I would think the rules are the same, but one never knows.
I just read my old post when I announced the divorce was over and I said I would stick around to helps others out. I didn't. If I did, I probably would not be typing this message now. So, even though I didn't keep my promise, I am once again here, looking for help.
Last time we were in crisis, I used this site as my journal and it helped, so why not do it again?
She took her turn in a new game of Scrabble I started on facebook today. That's not much, but it's something. The idea of sleeping alone (well...tossing and turning alone) again tonight, makes me so sad, I don't have words. But when she said "I'm not coming home tonight", I remembered not to argue or beg. I just said "maybe that's the right thing". I will remember not to pressure her. She hates that more than just about anything.
I'm not sure if our kids being 18 and 15 now makes this better or worse than last time when they were 4 years younger. Hmmmmm
Indy
I think you're freaking out for nothing.
She made contact via FB. That is a good sign.
Just completely back off.
You know how to do this.
You just REALLY got on her nerves and she left. She'll be back. Maybe not tonight, but when she is, what are you going to say?
Maybe she every intention of coming home but just needed this time to reboot....
Chill.
Maybe I oversimplified things.
There has been a gradual downturn over the last 2 years approx. I saw it, but did nothing. Sure, here and there I applied the stuff I learned last time, but never long term.
A while ago, I did something to her that really hurt her and completely turned her off sexually. Sex had been rare for a while and non existent recently. I only found out last night how much that one occurence had destroyed her.
It is possible that the conversation yesterday was the tipping point and that this may be short lived. But...either way, there is a real problem festering there.
Even if she does comes home in the next few days, I don't know what I will say. Promises shomises sure won't do.
It's killing me, but I am backing off today. Just trying to work as usual and then see what tomorrow brings.
Hey Indy -
I'm with you, I was here in 2003, save my M, and I'm back here again.
I'm agree with Stronger - back off and see what develops.
Bill
How does it happen? We manage to save it once, and then go right back to (at least) potential loss?
Do you ever think that it just isn't natural for 2 humans to pair bond for life? Or that maybe our spouses just don't like who we really are - when we are just being our natural selves and not dbing and working our butts off to keep something alive?
I've been thinking today. At least if this time it does end, I'm a stronger person than I was 4 years ago, my kids are older and will be less affected and we are financially more able to handle a split. Sure....I want things to work out, but gotta be prepared for the worst and see something positive, so there is still a life for me if it all ends.
Question folks:
Since no bomb dropped last night and since we texted after she left last night and spoke on the phone today...
Tonight do I text saying "good night" and nothing more or do I do nothing?
Feedback appreciated.
Indy, not sure I have a 1-size fits all answer. For me, I put all my effort into saving my M. My career for that year went down the tubes. The past couple of years, I've been more and more preoccupied with work, thinking we were good. That, and I think my W has a hole of discontent in her that just part of her, and she things that getting out the M will make things better. So - I think there is an underlying problem in my M as to the size of my wife's needs, and my ability to balance what I can do. I made a lot of changes the 1st time around that are still with me, and I'm a better person for it - but, as GIMA pointed out, there are larger issues that were only temporarilly resolved.
I have a buddy that has been through this too - W was unhappy, they reconsiled, and now he's worred that she's drifting to this discontent again, and he's going to end up in the same place.
I think you need to calm down right now - yes, start DBing, abolutely, but she hasn't dropped a bomb. Right? Get yourself together. You're not in last resort yet.
Anyone else, what do you think?
I think my wife may also have so much resentment and anger built up after 21 years, that dbing or anything, just puts a band-aid over the wounds. I often feel that she just gets through each day and never deals with what is at the core of her, until it just bursts out.
I think too often we don't really live. I'm not in MLC, but realize I am at mid life and don't want to waste days. I want to live fully completely. Of course, I would prefer to do that with my wife, but maybe that just can't be done with 21 years of "stuff".
At the same time, the thought of starting over on my own or with someone else isn't very appealing.
Still looking for feedback on what I should do at the end of the night - text or call her? or nothing?
Don't respond.
When you DB'd the first time, did you make changes to yourself and the R? They should have been lasting changes whether you wanted to get back to her or not.
Maybe she saw that you weren't sincere in terms of making the changes permanent.
Sorry, that last sentence should have been...
Maybe she THOUGHT that you weren't sincere in terms of making the changes permanent.
Ya, but it also takes two.
Update...
I went with doing nothing last night and then texted "good morning" today. Response was "morning". We usuall hug every morning before one of us leaves the house, so by text I offered to stop be her work for a hug (mistake?). Answer was "no". I made a quick call by cell after that and asked if she was coming home tonight or when. (mistake?) I got more of the don't push stuff ' "it's only been 2 days -I think we need some time apart". I got my db face on and just said "ok - just wanted to know".
So...I now know she isn't coming home until as least Sunday, if ever. I believe it's time to give her tons of space, don't push at all and look at the bright side: I am still in my house, my kids (d18 and s15) are there, and really life is normal other than the fact that my wife is not there. So, other than minimal contact by text (she seems to prefer) I think I will just live my life. Be postive and happy when I do speak with her and see what happens in a couple of days.
Thoughts???
A while ago, I did something to her that really hurt her and completely turned her off sexually. Sex had been rare for a while and non existent recently. I only found out last night how much that one occurence had destroyed her.
We kind of glossed over that little tidbit huh?
I think you should fess up to this "something."
Not because I need or want to know, but because it looks like a key here. I could fill in that "something" with any one of a number of things that could "hurt" a woman. (Matter of fact, you used the word "destroyed")(heavy term to use) Some of them to the point of no return for her...
Start there.....
Didn't mean to gloss over it. Too long a story for my typing skills to properly explain it.
I think it is 100% a key here. It obviously has been eating away at her for months. Since I can't take it back and have already aplogised and admitted that it was horribly wrong, there is little I can do regarding that issue. If it has hurt her to the point of no return, than it has.
If not, and she does come home at some point, hopefully over time the wound will heal. So..the focus now is what to do if she does come home and what do if she doesn't. I think I am in a holding pattern for a couple of days. Important days they are - they are going to lead to the bomb (or something like that) or to an opportunity to save our marriage a second time.
She gave me a horse on facebook's farmville. Not sure some of you will have any idea what that means. But I figure this action and playing scrabble on facebook means she's not hating me at the moment. She would shut down 100% if she was.
I texted "thanks for the horse" - got a reply - replied and then stopped the textversation when she did not respond.
I'm thinking tonight I will text "good night" at my usual bedtime, since I did not do anything last night. I feel like I am thinking out each move too much. But, I really think the next couple of days are crucial. I know she doesn't want me to "push" (her term), so I am doing my best not to.
What's the sweet spot between not pushing/pusuing and having your waw think you don't care?
What's the sweet spot between not pushing/pusuing and having your waw think you don't care?
Your attitude. Are you projecting a vibe that says you are confident, strong, decisive, solid, and fearless right now?
How would txting good night fit in with that currently? It's how you act not what you say. Are you taking care of yourself? Are you handling your business? You can handle it.
Cheers
I'm actually far more calm and collected than last time. Not sure if I am giving off the exact vibe I want to be. Last time I did a lot of acting "as if", since I was dying inside. I think I will turn up the positive attitude a little.
Thinking it over, probably better off not to text good night. Will likely come across as needy to my wife. I will have the best night I can at home in front of the kids (for their sake and mine)and see what tomorrow brings. I think I will even skip the good morning text tomorrow. In fact, I am now determined to make next contact be initiated by her.
Sometimes just having this place to type out your thoughts and read them helps. Mr. strong and fearless out.
Well, I managed not to contact my wife last night. Feeling very uneasy this morning. I have a feeling that bad news is coming today. I so badly want to send a good morning text in order to test the waters, but I will simply force myself not to. I hate the days that I wake up with the feeling in the pit of my stomach.
Oh well, this is only the start of day 3 since she walked out and away. Something tells me it's going to be a bad one.
So much for not contacting her. I had some good news here at work and wanted to share it with her. So, I called her cell.
She sounded quite depressed about her life overall. Still no plan on coming home - yes I asked, but very briefly. It was obvious that she didn't want to talk, so I just let her go and said I would call her later. I did say that I miss her - I think that's ok. Nothing wrong with being honest.
Honesty at times can also be damaging.right now she is angry depressed and confused.telling her you miss her after pushing her to leave can very well be hurtful to her.
This is just my opinion but give her space lots of space.wait for her to contact you and then choose you words carefully.try to get your mind off it enjoy your kids.take them out have fun.
If you keep projecting something bad will happen guess what it will(Murphy's Law).
Be positive make it a good day !
God Bless
Thanks for the reminder on the space thing. I know that's what she wants, but it's so hard do the opposite of what your heart and mind tell you to do. Just reading your comments out loud helps.
This patience while in total limbo sure does suck!!!!
I won't likely be able to access this site tomorrow from home, so my next post probably won't be until Monday. I don't expect much to happen today, but by tomorrow (our usual Sunday at home together as a family) something is most likely going to happen.
How in the world do I not go crazy between now and then? And what do you do to prepare yourself to hear the words no one wants to hear? What do I say the moment after she drops the bomb? That is if, she does drop one, and I suspect she will.
Your help appreciated here folks. I'll check in before I head home in a couple of hours.
How to not go crazy? Stay busy, distract yourself, read a book, go for a walk, shoot some hoops. Spend some time with friends.
What to say? Stay cool. Say, I understand what you're saying. Listen to her, figure out from what she says, where she is on it - it she willing to go to counciling, does she have a plan to seperate permantently, etc. Don't pressure or contradict her feelings. Don't tell her that YOU need her, that YOU love her. Listen.
Update...
My wife came home yesetrday in order to have our Sunday family dinner, even though d18 was at work. Prior to dinner, a short time after she came in home, she said "we need to talk about what we are going to do". I said "whenever you wish - now is fine with me".
We had a brief conversation, since she had lots to do. She said "we can't keep living like this". I agreed. We spoke a little longer, but I kept the conversation brief and let it end when she wanted it to.
Later in the day, before dinner, we played scrabble together. We usually do that on Sunday afternoons - it helps my wife de-stress from the week. While playing we discussed the previous few days and she told me she stayed at a hotel for 3 nights - only spent the first night away with her friend. We agreed she would spend the night at home and that we could sleep in the same bed. As she sais "we have been sleeping together for over 20 years". Since we will barely see each other this week due to work and personal commitments, we agreed there was no need for her to stay elsewhere this week. Tonight and tomorrow night I work until late, so we will basically just sleep together. The next 2 nights she will be out of town and Friday night she will have her usual girls night out and be home very late. So...even though things will appear "normal" we really won't have any contact until Satruday night or Sunday. Probably a good thing?
After dinner, I had a severe Irittable Bowel Syndrom attack and spent the rest of the night in the bathroom and then went to bed very early.
This morning my wife left for work before I was out of bed, as usual. She always hugs me and says bye before she leaves. That did not happen and last time we went thought this that disappeared for some time. I will make no mention of it.
So...things went better than expected. And for the next week, relax, remove all pressure and expectations and be prepared for next weekend.
So much for things looking a little brighter.
I came home from work last night and wife was not here. I called her to see what was up. She says she now won't be home until Saturday night after taking daughter shopping for the day. She seemed very cold on the phone and when I mentioned that we never finished our discussion, she said "we will talk this week to see if we should talk on Sunday". That sounds like she may be making her decision this week. I really can't do much without persuing, so I guess there is nothing I can do. We did agree that she should be home next week, when the kids go back to school. It looks like I may wind up out of the house for a while - and I have no idea where to go.
I could not sleep last night and today I am feeling hopeless. I am literally sick over this and don't know how I am going to get through the work week, or even just live, and somehow remain positive and give off good vibes etc.
Today it just simply hurts. My fellow db'ers, I need support.
I have just realized that I really need to de-tatch. I have a real issue with attachment. My wife always saw it as controlling and jealousy and so did I. I just became aware of what it all really stems from. What a moment that was. If nothing else, comes out of all of this, at least I found a golden nugget that will help me today, tomorrow and forever.
It looks like I may wind up out of the house for a while - and I have no idea where to go.
Why do you have to leave the house? It seems as though she has a place to stay if she wants a S why can't she just stay where she is?
Hang in there, Indy.
You know how to do this, and you can handle it.
1) Detach
2) PMA!!
3) Work on YOU.
4) Act as if.
5) GAL
You can do it.
Why do you have to leave the house? It seems as though she has a place to stay if she wants a S why can't she just stay where she is? [/quote] - looks like I didn't get the quote thing right - but I am sure you get the idea.
Good point. I do want her home next week for first week of school, but that doesn't mean I have to go anywhere. I can accommodate her need for space and still be in my house with my kids. Even if I sleep somewhere other than my own bed. If the kids are important enough to her, she will find a way to accept that she will have to share them and the house with me.
Nothing wrong with politely stating that I don't want to go anywhere - because I don't.
Really rode the roller coaster of emotions today. Just felt light crying my eyes out at times.
Texted wife about kids shopping for back to school and got no repsonse. I guess this time I really must leave next contact up to her.
Couldn't sleep last night and I know how important that is to staying strong, so tonight I will take one of the sleeping pills my wife has - I guess she doesn't need them when away from me. Yikes!
As each day passes with little or no contact (and cold when there is contact) I am starting to lose hope. I am working on being prepared to accept the end.
Slept well last night thanks to one tiny pill. That seems to have helped me have a better day today.
We texted a few times and even chatted briefly on phone. At one point I made a somewhat racy comment via text. I was admonished, with an "exucse me', but nothing terrible. When she texted "that's not a place we should be right now" I said "sorry - I get that".
I have myself so pumped up over our possible future that I just might not be prepared for the conversation we are to have Sunday. At least, it will keep me in a good mood until then.
What is the right approach when it's time for the R talk?
Folks, I could really use some an advice here.
It still appears that we will be having an R talk on Sunday when my wife is back from 10 days apart (other than a short time at home last Sunday - read this thread).
Since this R talk is going to happen, I really need some ideas on the proper way to phrase things. I truly am prepared to make some serious changes (yes - for me regardless of outcome), but this will be a critical conversation, if my wife has left the door open even just a little.
Your help please.
Brief phone conversation with wife after she did not respond to email I sent. No, not persuing - sometimes she has troubles getting emails via her blackberry.
She is still planning on coming home tomorrow night after spending day shopping with d18. I told her I would likely be sleeping before they get home and will sleep in another room, since she would likely enjoy sleeping in her own bed after sleeping elsewhere for 9 nights. She did say that she is sick of living out of her car.
Anyway...in the days since she walked out August 26, I have begun to come to terms with our marriage ending. Physically being apart makes detaching easier and more natural.
When we have the scheduled R talk on Sunday I plan on proposing the following: we live as a separated couple for the next 8-9 months for financial reasons and also to make the transition easier on the kids. Our house is large enough and our schedules differ enough for us to co-habitate with very little contact. I will even give up our incredibly comfortable bed.
That will allow me that period of time to detach further and work on me. We can then sell the house, and start our new lives fairly smoothly. I hope she agrees to this idea. It is quite reasonable, workable and economically smart.
If something changes drastically in that period, then so be it. But, if not, I am actually ready to move on with MY life.
Well,
I guess it was more serious than first thought. On your initial post I was prepared to write that this would all blow over.
It's funny, but once you are back together you forget why you fought so hard in the first place. Face it, marriage isn't all that wonderful. It's got its redeaming factors, but it also has bad things. I can see why you'd slip with DB efforts.
I think the proper way to go is not to suggest a solution at the moment. Your big opportunity is to hear her out, first and foremost, and actually consider what she has to say. If it's doom and gloom, so be it...be accepting that she feels that way. If it's a laundry list of your faults, own the ones that are true, and just acknowledge that you understand she feels that way about the rest. I don't think this is your opportunity to suggest a plan that clearly indicates that you want to keep her close to eventually change her mind.
But don't go all doom and gloom yet. She may fully intend to work on marriage with just a list of gripes. She hasn't said she wants out has she? Or has she?
Be strong Indy. You know you can survive this. Show her that you can. But also acknowledge that you know things have slipped and would like the chance to rectify the problems. But let her go first. You start by being the listener.
I knew it was serious from the start. Experience here remember?
I do plan on letting her talk first and really listening, but I am fairly certain it will end with her saying she wants out. I just want to have her agree to wait until it makes a lot more economic sense. Too much to explain, but 8 months or so, will net us $30,000 or more. I can furnish a nice apartment with my half! For that kind of money, I can sleep on a futon and live in one part of the house - I will have a half bathroon, big screen tv, XBox, etc.
I am not trying to keep her close to change her mind, so I hope it won't "clearly indicate" that. I am being 100% genuine when I say waiting is for logistical reasons - and to ease all of us into a new normal.
I am feeling much stronger than a week ago. I am prepared emotionally, factually and physically for the R talk. I almost can't wait to get it over and done with and then move on from there - regardless of the outcome of that conversation.
No contact last night or this morning.
Looks like wife is still coming home tonight after spending day shopping with d18. If I go to sleep before they get home, I still plan on not sleeping in our bed.
Then, finally, tomorrow we have the talk. My stomach is queasy today, but glad the wait is almost over. Tomorrow will literally be the first day of the rest of my life.
HELP!!!
Wife did come last night, but went to hospital right away to see grandmother who was rushed there. She has terminal cancer and it looks like these are the last days. Her grandmother is my favourite member of my wife's family, but she does not want to see me since she is aware of situation between my wife and I. It upsets me, but no time to be selfish. I will have to deal with the fact that someone I care about, wouldn't see me on their death bed. That will be tough.
Question is - how do I support my wife and "be there" for her without breaking dbing principles. I have often failed to be there at tough times in the past, and don't want to do that again.
The R talk was supposed to be today. I really think this would be a bad time. I will make sure I mention nothing until wife does and will just "play house" and act as if until then.
Help please - what do I do?
Go and "be" there. Be present and and supportive for your wife and her family. You don't have to go in to see Grandma. It would be a loving thing to do for all of them.
I can't physically be there. My wife has made it clear that I am not wanted at the hospital. I am public enemy number one. She just came back to get the kids to go to the hospital and didn't even come in the house - texted daughter ahead of time so they could meet her in the driveway. I am clearly not to be any part of this.
"Being there" for her isn't about a place. It's about comfort, compassion and emotional support.
Start cooking food. There is always a need for prepared meals when someone dies.
A while ago, I did something to her that really hurt her and completely turned her off sexually. Sex had been rare for a while and non existent recently. I only found out last night how much that one occurence had destroyed her.
We kind of glossed over that little tidbit huh?
I think you should fess up to this "something."
Not because I need or want to know, but because it looks like a key here. I could fill in that "something" with any one of a number of things that could "hurt" a woman. (Matter of fact, you used the word "destroyed")(heavy term to use) Some of them to the point of no return for her...
Start there.....
Spill the beans, the net and this forum is anonymous and you aren't going to get anywhere fast if you don't speak up about what you did otherwise you're just sitting on this forum typing up numerous posts and wasting time.
Didn't mean to gloss over it. Too long a story for my typing skills to properly explain it.
I think it is 100% a key here. It obviously has been eating away at her for months. Since I can't take it back and have already aplogised and admitted that it was horribly wrong, there is little I can do regarding that issue. If it has hurt her to the point of no return, than it has.
If not, and she does come home at some point, hopefully over time the wound will heal. So..the focus now is what to do if she does come home and what do if she doesn't. I think I am in a holding pattern for a couple of days. Important days they are - they are going to lead to the bomb (or something like that) or to an opportunity to save our marriage a second time.
You hope the wound will heal but if you put in the same effort into the apology for whatever you did (which would probably help us in assisting you here) as you do in these forum posts which really don't tell us anything, I think you're going in circles and getting nowhere.
I'm going to say it like it is and I expect a few users on this forum to get their feathers ruffled by the way I respond but so be it, someone has to say it.
You said you were here a few years ago and you successfully db'ed your marriage but you ended up here again. I don't think you db'ed successfully, if you have done any of what you've done & mentioned in your posts thus far, your wife just came back to you because she had no place to go at that point in time and if she comes back again it will be for the same reason, nothing more.
You post numerous times without really saying anything.
I think you contact her too much, no contact is a principle that works yet you're doing the opposite. Phone calls, emails, texts, facebook games (giving her an animal on farmville or some other such nonsense), asking her if you can go by her work to give her a hug, etc. You were a previous db'er and you forgot everything?!
What do you think all of the above communicates to her? I'll tell you what it communicates to me just from your posts as you write them: you're needy, insecure, not very masculine, not very attractive, selfish (you did something to her that "destroyed" her but don't want to go in details because of your typing skills which appear to be intact counting the number of posts you've made thus far on this thread).
Be a man, own up to what you did whatever you did because apparently it was enough for her to say in her mind, "I've had enough", you have to think about the thought process behind this. You've done something or things so badly that this person doesn't want to live with you or be with you anymore - read this part several times till you get it in your head & understand it. This person was either turned off or hurt so much by your actions that the thought of living with you isn't something they can stomach anymore. I have to wonder what other actions you do perform regularly which make this thought pop up into your wife's head.
Then the talk of moving out, and leaving your bed so that she can sleep there and be comfortable and you will sleep in another room, etc. None of that follows any db principles that I'm aware of.
First you screw up so then you think the way back to her heart is to show her you have little or no value and you would move out of your home or possibly your bedroom? How is any of that attractive? How does that atone for your actions that were hurtful against her? All you would do is "train" her to treat you badly because you've treated her badly in many ways. Is this really what you want?
Apparently she has told her family what you've done and by your own accounts you are now public enemy number 1. Seriously, what the heck did you do to sway all of their opinions uniformly against you that they wouldn't even want you at the hospital during this time?
Own up to what you did, I think it will help us in charting a course for what you can do if anything can be possibly done to get you on the road to fixing your relationship and your personal thought process.
If you're not willing to do any of this, I can't believe you're serious in db'ing and you're just hear to wallow in self-pity and hope people will feel sorry for you.
That's a "2x4", you've just been whacked, if you've been here before, you know you get those from time to time because you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing.
The ball is in your court now, please "don't gloss over" the required details, you want support & help, time for YOU to be HONEST about what you've done to hurt your wife so much. Time to be a man about all of this, that's where it starts.
just my 0.02 cents.
Wow RobX. Thanks for the smack in the brain. Seriously.
I have lots of time to type now, so time to admit what I did. My wife is a stunningly attractive woman with an incredible body. She has always felt that I usually want sex just because of how hot she is. For this reason (and others I am sure) our sex life has been very limited over the last few years. It has been non existent for the 4 months (approx)since the incident I am about to admit to. We had the R talk yesterday and I now know it was the final straw for her.
One night I came home from work and my wife was in bed. She was naked and looking great as usual. I crawled into bed and tried to initiate sex with her. I wasnt aware that she had taken sleeping pills after drinking a fair amount. She had a very bad day and often drinks to escape. She was rather out of it, but I still continued to touch her and even attempted oral. She never woke up wholly, but felt what I was doing. I stopped short of insertion, but she obviously felt used. Even more than usual. This has been eating away at her since and she now sees me as more of a sexual deviant than ever before. There is no sexual attraction at all. I don't think I am exaggerating when I say she feels it was close to rape - and in some way it was. I hate myself for it and think of it every day.
That was tough to admit. But maybe saying it here, is a start for me to deal with it.
Seems odd to just move on from there, with more posting, but I guess I have little choice.
Her grandmother was released from the hospital, but it is still only a matter of days. As for her family not wanting me there, they have never been fond of me, so this is really no surprise.
As I mentioned, we had the R talk as planned yesterday. It was brief, since my wife left when she started crying. She came home a short time later and we were able to speak and even hugged each other. I made the dbing error of suggesting the hug. I said "friends hug each other" and she said "you're my husband". weird.
The bottom line of the R talk was that my wife wants to divorce in approx one year. She says this is too important a year for our s15 to do anything now. I suppose that give me some time to db and as mentioned earlier if this all does end in divorce, financially we will be much better off in 8 months or so. One important comment she made during the talk - "the damage has been done".
I did not sleep in our bed last night, since wife said it makes her uncomfortable - and now I am sure you all understand why. I slept in the basement rec room and then went up to our bed for some real sleep when my wife got up. I actually went in before she was out of bed - she got up later than normal.
Question - what about sleeping arrangements for tonight?
She is working today while I am home for Labour Day. We are planning on a nice family dinner with the kids tonight. And then - I dunno.
Question #2 - Is it right to play house for the next year or ???? And does anyone think my wife is hoping somehow things will be different a year from now?? Or is she really just willing to put her future on hold for a year for the sake of our son (and daughter)? She is a great Mom and actually would do such a thing.
All thoughts, comments and suggestions welcome.
Robx - Thanks again. I needed that.
The roller coaster ride continues.
We had a nice dinner on the deck with the kids and to me at least, the night felt like old times. I knew it wasn't real, but enjoyed it for what it was worth. Then came the end of the night and I asked "where am I sleeping tonight?". The tension arrived with a bang. My wifes comment was something like "we need to figure out what we're doing. I think I'll just get an apartment". So much for her staying around for a year or so as mentioned in my last post. How the hell are we supposed to deal with their daily changes? I wrap my mind around something and prepare to work with that and then it changes.
I said nothing in response and initially went to sleep in our bed. But when my wife joined me I felt like a stranger in my own bed. She fell asleep peacefully, while I tossed and turned. I wound up going back down the futon in the rec room. Another sleepless night. I asked my wife to re-stock on the prescription sleeping pills she has. She said she would try today.
I am so lost, scared, confused, tired, angry and wracked with guilt that I don't know what to do. I just can't put my smile on and make today a good day. I must work later today and I am in sales. I have no idea how I am going to do it.
Folks...it's only been less than 2 weeks since I returned here, and I just want everything to be over.
Half an hour later and now I am more confused than before. We just had a brief phone conversation as per agreement we made last night when she said "we need to talk..."
Now it appears she is once again willing to stay in the house as previously agreed. I know that that is best for the kids and makes much more financial sense. I still have the question I asked before - is it right to play house?
The one thing my wife is adamant about is that we not sleep in the same bed. RobX said I should not give in to that. But..I think at this point I need to respect this one wish. If that is the one thing she needs to be somewhat comfortable, is it not "more of the same" by disregarding her feelings and putting my needs ahead of hers?
People..please chime in. After finally admitting what I did to my wife, I would really appreciate some comments especially from female members.
One more thing - although I know it takes two to ruin a marriage, being purely objective, I know in this case it is mostly by fault. The guilt I feel for what I am doing to my kids and the woman I love is eating me alive. Any ideas on how to deal with the guilt? Is it time for professional help?
If the main problem is that she felt you violated her in her own bed then I think you should honor her request to not have you in it. JMO. If you want to heal that particular hurt, then the bed thing becomes pertinent.
Wondering something...why, after all this, did you send her a "racy" text? What was the point? What did you expect to happen? I find that an odd thing for you to have done under the circumstances. Just curious.
My thoughts exactly on the bed thing. Healing that hurt is essenital to a positive outcome. I also need to deal with the guilt somehow and I would think at some point find a way to apologise - not that it will actually make anything better, but she needs to know I am truly sorry.
She has a real thing about invasion of her personal space. She literally needs space right now.
Why did I send the racy text? Somtimes I am plain old stupid. At least that is one mistake I know I will never make again.
My thoughts exactly on the bed thing. Healing that hurt is essenital to a positive outcome. I also need to deal with the guilt somehow and I would think at some point find a way to apologise - not that it will actually make anything better, but she needs to know I am truly sorry.
She has a real thing about invasion of her personal space. She literally needs space right now.
Why did I send the racy text? Somtimes I am plain old stupid. At least that is one mistake I know I will never make again.
Here is the deal on the apology.
You make a straight line between point A & point B, no detours, no scenic route, you just do it.
"I have something to tell you,
I am sorry for what I did on that day to you.
I took advantage of you when you were in that state and looking back at it, I know that it was a horrible & selfish thing to do to you. I am your husband and you need to feel secure with me to be with me & around me and you don't feel secure around me anymore, you can't trust me and I feel really bad about that. All I can do is apologize to you and hope that I can rebuild that trust by being trustworthy and hopefully we can be friends, if nothing else. I have to be honest with myself, currently we don't have the emotional connection that we need from each other, something is missing for me, it had to have to been for me to be so selfish and do what I did to you and something is obviously missing from you because I feel you've been withdrawing from me. I will for my part, continue to be civil & friendly towards you and I will stop bothering you with my emails, texts, phone calls, etc. If you need something, ask me and I'll do what I can."
And that's it.
You've made the apology and you won't have to apologize again.
You can stop contacting her incessantly, it's not attractive.
Create a bit of space between you, stop contacting her, if she needs to, she can contact you. You need to get a bit of a life, no more offering to go to her work to offer hugs, you don't need to contact her on facebook and play online games - that isn't going to win your wife back. Honest & trustworthy actions repeated on your part on a regular basis to rebuild trust is what will make her feel safe around you because she currently doesn't feel safe at all.
As for the bed, that is a personal call.
You can respect her and yourself and still sleep in your bed, you're a man, there is no rule that says you have to sleep on the couch or in the basement, if it's the 11th commandment from Moses, show me where it's written otherwise sleep in your bed.
You can't just show her you respect her and are trustworthy to her. For a woman, your wife, to feel safe around you, she has to see that you respect yourself not to treat yourself badly, to show her that you have value. Too many men get caught up in this doghouse treatment because they feel it's a requirement, it isn't, you would do yourself and your wife a favor if you didn't portray this behavior - all you do is train her & yourself that when things go bad, you exile yourself and that isn't necessary. People respect people who respect themselves - start there.
She can heal emotionally sleeping the same bed as you or she can choose to sleep elsewhere, let her control what she does, you control what you do.
Her emotional healing won't happen any faster if you're not in the same bed with her - it doesn't work that way, it never does.
- just my 0.02 cents
I am going to make the call and not sleep in our bed. I will watch to see how she reacts to this. I will make it no big deal though. In fact, likely best to be in the rec room just prior to bed time and simply go to bed (well...futon).
Great wording on the apology. Of course, I will use my own words. It needs to be genuine. Now is not the time, but again, I will watch for the right moment.
I originally thought playing scrabble on fb was acting "as if". I suppose not. I simply will not take my turn. And I now make the promise to creat space effective tonight when I get home from work.
I was thinking today....tomorrow will be only 2 weeks since she walked out. I have to stop expecting results quickly. Patience...........
a word about waiting for the right time...
now is always the right time,
don't wait until tomorrow if you have something that can be done today, we don't know how much time we have on this planet, time is extremely valuable, watching the tic tocs on the clock waiting for a "right time" is just wasting time.
- you will have alot of time to spend on db'ing, being trustworthy, building trust through consistent action will take alot of time, this apology will take a minute and you can probably do it today if you come into contact with her.
- you can do it,
owning up to your mistakes and apologizing takes alot of guts, shows strength, etc.
Rough night last night and this morning I just want it over.
My d18 texts me at work "why are you and mom getting a divorce, she won't tell me". I called daughter and she said mom was mad at her and wouldn't talk to her. So...I called wife to see what was up. She didn't pick up phone and I could feel something was up. So, I left work a little early and came home.
I checked on both kids and then checked on wife who was outside. We talked for a few minutes and I decided to take RobX advice and apologize then. I had a feeling it might be the last time we talk for a while.
I then realized wife was very drunk. As I mentioned once before she drinks when upset. She showed me that she had tried to cut her wrists. It was not a real attempt, but obviously a concern. There was a full bottle of sleeping pills in the house, so had she been serious she had a way.
Long story short, she left again to go to a friends house. This friend has been great for her. They work together and her friend had to send another co-worker to get my wife since she was unable to drive.
One important thing - my wife actually said "I hate you" to me. Odd - but it was good to hear her finally say it. For her sake, she needs to release some of her anger.
I talked to kids briefly, took a couple of sleeping pills and slept through the night. I am off work today and I am going to stay busy around the house.
Seeing my wife all messed up made me feel sorry for her, but it also made me not want to be around her and actually relieved when she left. There is a lesson in that - confident, calm, people are more attractive.
I think it's time for me to cut off all contact at this time. Under dbing principles is that right? I could use the break from all the drama.
At this moment, I am not sure I want to bust this divorce, but that could just be today. Advice on what to do now?????
How did your wife get to her friends house?
Sorry..thought my post explained.
Her friend sent another co-worker to pick her up here and then I suppose friend took her to her house. My wife did not drive.
Just got a text from wife saying "morning. you were trying to call me last night". I simply replied "that was before I came home". And then she texted asking how our d18 is. I responded with "only saw her for a few minutes - can't really tell regardless' and that ended the textversation.
Right now, I don't even want to deal with my wife at all. The "I hate you" makes me realize this is all futile. I want to wave a magic wand and have the divorce and all of this end and start my new life. Maybe I will feel differently tomorrow.
Either way, I think minimal contact - only when initiated by my wife - is the best idea now.
Just in case, I wake up tomorrow and still want to bust this thing - and ideas on what to do at this point? Time to go dark? Or????
I think you ought to quit thinking about what you do or don't want and start thinking about your kids.
Is anyone in your family in any kind of counseling? She's drunk and SUICIDAL, and the kids don't know WTF is going on around them, and you're thinking about yourself and if you're in the mood to bust your divorce?
what are you doing for the children?
I am very concerned about out kids. Neither one knows about her cutting her wrists. Let me clarify - she never broke the skin. I think it was more of a frustration thing than anything else. They both went to school today and seemed ok. I will spend time with them when they come home.
It's not that I am thinking of me (or us) before the kids, it's just that I consider this place to be mainly about divorce busting.
No, we are not in counseling. I plan on going myself. I will speak to the kids about them going today. As for wife, I doubt it, especially if I suggest it. She would automatically go against it. I may try to speak with her friend about getting her some help.
I will make sure I put tons of effort into the kids right now and will clearly tell my wife that if she is going to behave that way in front of the kids then I don't want her around them. Time to man up.
I am here just to vent....
I had to call my wife regarding an issue with the kids starting school. She was VERY cold and rude. She even said "I have to go - you're annoying me".
Again, I'm not sure I won't feel differently another day, but right now I just want this whole thing to end. I am done. Let's get the house ready for sale, sell it, split the money we have left 50/50 call the movers and start the 3rd stage of my life. This SUCKS!
I feel like a hypocrite knowing that I am listed in the success stories from 4 years ago. No success, just put things off until now.
I am very confused I read your whole thread! You apologized when she was drunk, I am thinking you should do it when she is sober. I don't know what to say except as hard as it is NO CONTACT unless it is an emergency that involves the KIDS.
Stop dwelling it is not healthy, been there done that! You aren't in a position with the roller coaster to do anything effectively right now, you react instead of act. Get control of yourself find out how your kids are doing, go to a therapist, check and see if the kids want one also.
Essentially you need to stop caring about the outcome in regards to your marriage. Make amends for your behavior and that is that, I don't know what else can be said, but if you go through this without caring for the outcome you can act nobelly and honestly. That gives you the best chance to salvage what you can for your children and yourself.
Regardless of what any of us do or say, there isn't a right answer but we all know smothering doesn't work and right now she doesn't want any attention from you. Give her what she wants walk right past her and don't pay her any mind, don't be rude but don't be interested either.
Please right now get a hold of yourself until you can start sleeping again, we don't think as clearly and we aren't as solid when we aren't sleeping especially on a regular basis.
God bless and good luck to you and your family.
I made the apology before I relaized she was drunk. She hides it well.
My soon to be ex wife (there I said it!) just came home to pack a few things since she is staying in a motel room for a few days. I think she needs to be away from everyone for a couple days. I had been crying just before she got here and have been having my worst day since this crisis began. I spoke to her very little, but I sure as heck didn't come across as strong and confident. I just can't get it together enough to apply db principles. I will get my act together before kids come home from school.
I am estranged from my family and really have no close friend, so I think I really do need to see a therapist/counselor to help get through this. When I calm down, I know that regardless of the outcome I will be ok and my kids will be too. The problem is getting from here to there.
Everyone keeps saying to give her space and pay no attention, and I know that's the right thing to do. I just have to do it.
I make this promise to myself and my fellow db'ers - I will not contact her, will not talk about relationship or future (unless she brings it up), and I will leave her alone.
This is getting weirder by the day.
My wife texted me this morning and asked me to call her. I did. She told me she wound up in the hospital last night. She was vomiting badly and had to call an ambulance. They did a serious of blood tests etc and said she needs to see our family doctor. They did let her leave last night and someone gave her a ride back to the motel she is staying in.
She has had numerous medical issues over the years, so this could be related to any of them or something new. Or it may have been a reaction to the stress she is under. I think her Grandmother being gravely ill is really getting to her. Add to that, the situation between her and I, and the usual work related stress and it may be simply too much for her body to handle.
After we discussed what happened, she said "we need to live together - somehow". I simply said "yes we do" and told her that I miss her when she's not there. Not sure if that was ok or not. But I felt it and said it. So, at the moment it looks like she will stay in the motel for another day that is already paid for and then come home Friday night. I will be out for the night for a company event and then I work all day Saturday. That should allow her some time to get comfortable at home.
It looks like I may have one final chance at saving this marriage. And I mean final.
So...advice please. How do I handle things at home? Do I go home and act "as if" everything is fine? My wife may take that the wrong way - as if I think it really is ok because she came back - and that I have never and will never learn. You may need to read this whole thread to answer the next question. Where do I sleep Friday night?
Unless things change again - and they could - I have a better chance with my wife in my house with our kids than I do with her away. I can't blow my family's future. Please help me get this right.
Figured I should clarify something.
My wife said "we need to live together". I am pretty sure that means she thinks we need to for financial reasons, lifestyle, and for the kids. That does not mean that she wants to live with me, or be my wife or anything close. Even when you are an alien, you don't go from "I hate you" to wanting to come home in a day.
So, possibly for the second time (read earlier comment on this thread) my wife feels she needs to do something she doesn't want to. I want her to be truly happy and want my family together, so hopefully over a matter of time, we can put it all back together.
I will certainly keep coming here to journal and get advice, but it's time for me to do more soul searching and educating myself on every aspect of relationships.
The first few days will be critical. Still looking for advice, especially on the sleeping issue.
Indy, I just read through your thread here and you are rolling around on the roller coaster. I watch your mood change with every passing change in your W's mood. You're flying all over the place. You go from - I've been crying my eyes out, to, I'm done, let's sell the house and let me move one with the next 1/3 of my life....
You have to get a grip. You have to isolate yourself from the sitch in your head. You already know this.
Nothing hinges on a sentence, or a look, or a mistake. Stop making every little thing a tipping point into a catastrophe.
I've seen a number of times in this thread where you have 'predicted' the future, (Negatively of course) and have been wrong. Get your head out of your @$$! Keep your head in right NOW. It has no business trying to get into the future...that is such a waste of energy. If you kept your mind where your feet are most of your questions would be non-existent. This future guessing is only your attempt at control...it's an illusion so let it go.
Now stop for a minute. Do you have a problem right now?? I'm talking right now as you read this sentence. I'm not asking about something from the past or the future, do you have a problem sitting right in front of you right now?
You need to take a very deep breath. And then another, and another...
Indy,
I doubt very much if your wife is any different than most people, we don't make good decisions when stress becomes strain. I do believe that you have to get a "grip" on yourself and deal with you and the kids and let your wife do the same for herself.
I understand how difficult it is to do the right thing when it seems contrarey to what you want. I am gonna share this with you; I went through many years of pain, most of which was self inflicted, my heart goes out to you and how difficult it is to see straight sometimes.
Remember this DB principles don't guarentee saving the marraige, but they do give the person applying them a great chance at saving themselves and protecting their children. By doing this you also stand as good a chance as any in saving the marriage.
Now is the time to dig deep, not to act as if everything is okay, but ignore the huge elephant in the room. You need to act as if it doesn't matter, what matters are the kids and your mental state of being. Change what you can change YOU! Everything else is out of your control.
I couldn't save my marriage, I am hear to tell you I gave everything I had for quite some time and even worked on it and stayed open for a while after the divorce. I am here to tell you it worked out for the best, I learned alot about myself and about my wife of ten years. My son is good considering all and we get along wonderfully in regards to him.
I am usually pretty happy in fact been nicknamed pleasantville, she is not as happy and usually all over the board. Why, don't know for sure but she wasn't ever able to look at herself and see what she needed to change. Everything was my fault in her eyes and she did nothing wrong. Sadly when we take that approach growth is stunted and we end up very unhappy with ourselves.
Do what you can do for yourself and the kids, force yourself to detache from the wife and focus on any changes you need to make. Go to counseling or a preacher and talk about it. You need to regain control over you! Hang in there and start doing!
Thanks Steady and Goodfight
I was driving in to work this morning and thinking that I really am all over the place. Last time we went through this, I know I was much more calm, postive and actually made changes in myself that last for some time. Over a period of time, I allowed some of my old poor habits etc to come back into my life.
And no..I don't have a problem right now. That's a great way to think of things. I have always been a planner and very black and white about things. I can see now that sometimes it's simply best not to be that way. I can stop making plans all the time, because things beyond my control can change on a daily basis.
I'm going to work as usual, go to the company event tonight and then realize that nothing that happens when I return home is the end of the world - or even my world.
I needed your comments and needed to read over my thread objectively. I just ripped up my ticket to ride the roller coaster.
Thank You.
Had a good night out with co-workers for a company event. A little odd without wife there, but good to GAL on my own.
I think it's time to set a few goals that involve my wife. I already have a long list of personal goals.
1) To have my wife simply touch me in a caring we as she walks by.
2) To have my wife ask me to go with her to run an errand, some basic mundane task. Specifically, being invited to go grocery shopping would be ideal. No need to explain why, but that one thing would be signifigant.
3) To be invited to sleep in our bed. I am getting used to sleeping downstairs now though. No need for sleeping pills the last few nights.
4) To have my wife give me a good morning hug before she leaves for work. Will most likely need to reach goal number 2 first, since when things are "normal" it's part of a routine.
This was a goal last time, and when we reached it, it was the start of a good thing.
Good for you Indy. Now keep the focus in you're space occupied by you. You know this stuff. Learn more. The goals are good. Now how about some goals for YOU?
Good exercise: It's simple but very hard to do. Throughout your day, feel your body. No matter what you're doing, have part of your focus on the feelings inside your body. Your feet touching the ground, a sensation, the feel of the air on your skin as you're walking, anything... just make sure it's you feeling you're body. Try it for a day. It helps keep you grounded in the present and keeps the wandering mind at bay. But be warned, at the end of the day you'll be surprised at how often you lost that connection.
Why don't you make that a goal for tomorrow? Trust me, if you work this it will help you tremendously in not projecting forward in your mind. You'll also start to notice things your mind usually just filters out. It's a cool thing.
Just prior to round two beginning I had already started working on some personal things. I started walking and exercising again. A few years ago I was in amazing shape. I would like to get back there.
Not sure, today is the day to focus on feeling my body...That leads to an update from this weekend and a little journalling...
Went home after work Saturday to find out that wife is sick. Most likely a flu, but with her medical history, you never know. That made it tough to read her this weekend. She seemed very down, but was it due to feeling ill or is she feeling trapped?
Saturday night I managed to kink my neck/back while sleeping. That made Sunday a tough one for me. It still hurts this morning, but not quite as bad.
I mentioned that one of my goals is to have my wife touch me in passing. Saturday night she touched my hand when asking if I wanted a cup of tea. It was nice, but not "the touch" I am meant. It feels different.
I also said I want to be invited to sleep in my own bed. Yesterday, my wife said "maybe you should sleep in bed tonight" - but that was only due to the fact that by back was a mess. I declined the invitation, but in the middle of the night had to sleep in a real bed in order to get any sleep. I hope that was not a mistake. Tonight, hopefully I will be able to sleep on the futon in rec room as I have been doing.
Should note: wife and I did have a hot tub together. She started the tub, but knew I was going to have one to help my back problem. She helped me stretch out the muscles, but it was very clinical.
I tried to give her space all weekend so she can ease into being back in our home. Unless things change again, I believe she plans on "living together" at least until the end of the year. That gives me some time to apply my dbing knowledge.
There has been no r talk at all since she came home. I know it's best if there isn't, but I am concerned that she will think I believe everything is fine and that will make her angry.
Question - Without actually brining up the r, how do I let her know what I am aware that things are not ok? With my wife, having her think that I think all is ok, will create resentment. I hope that makes sense. Your comments appreciated.
Do you always sleep on the futon when things are ok?
Went home after work Saturday to find out that wife is sick. Most likely a flu, but with her medical history, you never know. That made it tough to read her this weekend. She seemed very down, but was it due to feeling ill or is she feeling trapped?
Work on you and stop trying to read her every mood. Moods change, especially when someone doesn't feel well. Just let her "be." Keep up the exercise.
Just prior to round two beginning I had already started working on some personal things. I started walking and exercising again. A few years ago I was in amazing shape. I would like to get back there.
Not sure, today is the day to focus on feeling my body...That leads to an update from this weekend and a little journalling...
Went home after work Saturday to find out that wife is sick. Most likely a flu, but with her medical history, you never know. That made it tough to read her this weekend. She seemed very down, but was it due to feeling ill or is she feeling trapped?
Saturday night I managed to kink my neck/back while sleeping. That made Sunday a tough one for me. It still hurts this morning, but not quite as bad.
I mentioned that one of my goals is to have my wife touch me in passing. Saturday night she touched my hand when asking if I wanted a cup of tea. It was nice, but not "the touch" I am meant. It feels different.
I also said I want to be invited to sleep in my own bed. Yesterday, my wife said "maybe you should sleep in bed tonight" - but that was only due to the fact that by back was a mess. I declined the invitation, but in the middle of the night had to sleep in a real bed in order to get any sleep. I hope that was not a mistake. Tonight, hopefully I will be able to sleep on the futon in rec room as I have been doing.
Should note: wife and I did have a hot tub together. She started the tub, but knew I was going to have one to help my back problem. She helped me stretch out the muscles, but it was very clinical.
I tried to give her space all weekend so she can ease into being back in our home. Unless things change again, I believe she plans on "living together" at least until the end of the year. That gives me some time to apply my dbing knowledge.
There has been no r talk at all since she came home. I know it's best if there isn't, but I am concerned that she will think I believe everything is fine and that will make her angry.
Question - Without actually brining up the r, how do I let her know what I am aware that things are not ok? With my wife, having her think that I think all is ok, will create resentment. I hope that makes sense. Your comments appreciated.
Indy you know my opinion, sleep in your bed, sleeping on the futon or another room was a bad idea.
As far as the relationship, shelve any talks about it.
Seriously working on the relationship doesn't work, it never does. When you have to work on it, you are openly admitting that it isn't working, you already have the mindset that things are wrong. Let it be.
As tough as it is let it be.
Focus on being friends, ultimately, don't you want a spouse that is a friend, not just a $ex partner?
So focus on that.
Seriously, her offering to make you cup of tea - big step for her, just smile & say thank you when little things like this happen, those are big things. If she hated you, she wouldn't bother offering you anything.
Her offering for you to sleep in the bed because of your back, another big move on her part considering based on your own admission of what happened between you she doesn't feel secure in bed with you. For her to do that is another example of her not hating you, otherwise she would have just said suffer in your futon.
Another example, the hottub thing, regardless if the touch was "clinical" or not (what are you looking for, erotic massage? hand job?), she tried to help you with your back pain, that was nice of her. So you've quote 3 things she's done that were nice to you, regardless of the size of the deed or the feeling behind it, all 3 things I've mentioned are nice things she did for you because technically she didn't have to do any of them - can you at least see that much?
Name 3 things you did for her that were nice recently.
Small steps, baby steps.
You still have a sound of urgency, I need this now, I need this turned around, I need my wife to love me, she has to be this way with me otherwise I can't believe she loves me, etc.
Stop controlling her (or attempting to at any rate), just control yourself, be a good person for you first & foremost. If the opportunity arises for you to do something nice for her (without supplicating her or acting wimpy/wussy in the process) go ahead and do it and don't expect anything back for it, just do it because you love her and you want her to enjoy your gift.
How are you feeling today indy?
Robx - I always appreciate your blunt comments. Seriously.
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the futon/bed thing. I really think it's a matter of respect for my wife and that has been an issue in the past - her feeling disprespected by me.
Those 3 nice things she did for me. I think I did not appreciate them enough. And you are right. You don't do that for someone you hate. So...she may have said that a couple days ago and maybe even felt it then, but not over the weekend.
Gotta admit - can't name 3 nice things I did for her this weekend.
As for how I am today - I am still working on the urgency thing. I do have a better sense of overall calm. I am learning to take one day at a time (I am a planner!!) and appreciate the small things.
Tough couple of days.
My wife's was throwing up blood again Monday and having severe stomach pains. We have spent the last couple of days at the hospital getting no where. Lots of tests, but no results.
This puts everything into persepctive. Seeing her so ill makes me realize that there are much worse things in life than a possible divorce. Of course, I still want things to be better, but also know they could be much worse.
Right now nothing matters except her getting better.
We have an appt to see a specialist tomorrow. Hoping to get some answers.
As I mentioned earlier, right now dbing is not my major concern...but I did get an odd text today - "look at you turning into the caring, doting hubby'. And no, it wasn't sarcastic.
I hate to think that me simply doing what a husband should do in a time of crisis is a big deal to my wife. Although I must admit that there were times in the past with other medical issues (and there have been many for her) that I wasn't there for her at all.
Here's hoping for good news tomorrow....
I will add you and your W to my prayers, Indy. And yes, it *is* in times of crisis that we find out who we really are.
Thanks for the prayers Dia.
More nothing from the uroligist today. My wife is getting very frustrated and we have no idea what to do next.
She was in a very bad mood after the appt today. I said little, other than "we can"t give up". I think all her health issues may contribute to her wanting to divorce. It's all too much for her.
One note: I am back to sleeping in our bed. But...I wasn't really ivited back. It's been more out of necessity - first due to my back problem (which is better now) and now due to my wife's illness. So..by default I have reached one of my goals, but it doesn't count. I was thinking of going back to sleeping on the futon, but I think that was just create a situation that is not needed. It could even lead to an R talk and we don't need that.
I am trying to remain positive and be a bright spot in my wife's life, but I think she just wants out of everything.
So..by default I have reached one of my goals, but it doesn't count.
Yes it does. She certainly could have objected or gone to the futon herself, right?
Baby steps. And everything counts.
I suppose you are correct Dia. Either way, I am in our big comfy bed.
I over heard wife talking on the phone about the medical stuff the last few days. She used the term "we" as opposed to "me" when discussing how the last few days went. I think that's a good thing.
It's odd right now - if someone who knew nothing were to walk into our house and observe, they would think everything is fine.
I am still giving her space, (but helping her whenever needed), not saying ILY, and making a real effort not to do the little things that I know she dislikes.
There has been no R talk since she came home and as much as I would like to know what she's thinking, I will try to keep it that way.
Journalling...
Quiet, "mormal" weekend.
Seems to be no issue with wife and I sleeping in the same bed. There is no physical contact of any kind, but at least I have made that goal - somewhat by default, but still it's a goal made.
I also sorta achieved a goal yesterday. I went grocery shopign with my wife. I had to somewhat invite myself, but my wife did wait while I showered and we did go together. She really needed someone to go with her since she is still very ill, and our d18 was sick too, so I won't count this one as a real victory.
I kept to myself a fair amount all weekend, but also watch tv with wife and played scrabble with her. It's much like we are roomates, but better than were we were a couple weeks ago.
No R talk of any kind. Being very careful no to mention anything about the future - other than a brief comment about annual XMAS vacation. Looks like we will be going as usual.
Not sure where to go from here. Just keep living "as if" and keeping up the changes and wait for her to say/do something? Thoughts???
Looking for some advice here folks.........
Considering my wife's current illness and her grandmother being terminally ill, I have been trying to be caring, helpful, nice to my wife while at the same time being somewhat de-tached. I'm wondering if this is right though.
Since we will be living in the same house for at least a few months, I thought it best to live well together for everyone's sake. Also, really being there in troubling times has not been my strength in the past. So, "being there" is a 180 of sorts - at least in my wife's mind.
Am I doing the right thing by "turning into the caring, doting husband" (to quote my wife's text from last week), while at the same time being self reliant, positive, and in no way needy? I hope you understand what I am trying to ask.
Since there has been no R talk and daily life is smooth (but wife remains somewhat distant) my current approach seems to be working. I am as happy as can be considering the situation, so it does work for me - but am I sending confusing signals?
Your comments appreciated.
Am I doing the right thing by "turning into the caring, doting husband" (to quote my wife's text from last week), while at the same time being self reliant, positive, and in no way needy? I hope you understand what I am trying to ask.
Since there has been no R talk and daily life is smooth (but wife remains somewhat distant) my current approach seems to be working. I am as happy as can be considering the situation, so it does work for me - but am I sending confusing signals
You are taking care of yourself and at the same time loving your wife. What's confusing?
The caring husband is a self admitted 180 for you, and it seems to be working. Do the things that help your situation and do not do the things that hurt.
I myself moved back into our marital bed after 2 nights of being in the guest room at her request. It was my realization that this was her decision to try to break up our family and she could move out if she wanted. This was my first step into being the man of the family.
It sounds that you have issues of true giving which is wanting nothing in return for what you do for her. When you reach that state of mind of true giving, then the rewards are great. At least in my S it has been.
Burt
Coach - I know it seems obvious that it's the right thing - but my concern is that my wife will believe I think everything is fine, when in her mind it absolutely isn't. With my wife, I know that could create major problems. I mention this a lot, because it is fundamental in our situation.
but my concern is that my wife will believe I think everything is fine, when in her mind it absolutely isn't.
So you are mind reading what she thinks you believe and then you mind read for her??!!
Real simple fix. You want to know what she is thinking just ask. You think she doesn't understand your POV then very calmly state it.
What am I doing? Mindreading. No point in that. Thanks.
I would love to know what she is thinking, but right now is not the right time to ask, since that could lead to an R talk. At some point, I will remember to calmly, simply state my POV.
For now, I need to focus on the fact that things are better than they were 4 weeks ago when I returned here.
I made a mistake yesterday and need to note it here for future reference. I stopped by my wife's work to check on how she was feeling (read this thread - she is ill) since I was right across the street. While there I commented on how good she looked and also did so later during a brief textversation. Her response via text - "oh well". I realized it made her angry, since her body may have looked great, but that's it, since she her face shows her illness. As I mentioned before, she has an issue with me wanting her just for her body at the best of times. So..note to self - STOP MAKING COMMENTS THAT COULD BE TAKEN AS SEXUAL, NOT SIMPLY COMPLIMENTARY.
Today marks 4 weeks since I returned to this site. I don't think my dbing is going as well as it did 4 years ago, but it's still early and I have time on my side. Today, I am going to do some reading of other books mentioned here, re-read some of DB and DR and do a complete evaluation of how I am doing working on me.
If I look at the overall picture, things aren't too bad. We are being civil and living in the same house. I am sleeping in our bed and I am physically better than I have been in some time. I don't have that inner peace I managed to find last time, but will work on it.
Still looking to reach 3 goals in regards to relationship with wife;
1. A touch from her as she walks by - just a simply expression of feeling.
2. The good bye hug that is customary when she leaves home in the morning before I do.
3. Be invited to run an errand with her. Being part of a simple daily task would be a stepping stone. Being asked to go grocery shopping with her would be the ideal. There is an explanation, but not needed.
Time to educate myself and focus.
I stopped by my wife's work to check on how she was feeling (read this thread - she is ill)
So this was your goal, to check on her. Did you tell her that? "I was across the street and had a minute and I wanted to check on how you were feeling." Let her talk, then ask her, "Is there anything I can do to help you?" She will tell you if she wants or needs anything. This is a win-win question.
More questions to ask:
What did you learn today?
Who did you help?
What did you do for yourself?
Don't interrogate her but have a dialouge.
Actually Coach that is almost exactly what I said. In the middle of the night she was having stomach pains and I simply asked if there was anything I could do - being careful not to come across as desperate to help.
I have to remember to attempt dialogue and then shut up and see what happens - let her control the flow. That way we are only communicating when she will enjoy it more and not feel pressured.
A little thing happened yesterday that is interesting....
It was my day off and as noted I wanted to do some reading. I spent an hour or two at the local library. Apparently while I was out my wife came home from work for a short time - she is still quite sick.
Anyway...when she came home at the end of work day she said " I was here earlier - where were you". I just said "out and about". She mentioned/asked two more times last night. My only response - "nowhere I shouldn't be". Really, I just didn't want to go into detail about why I was at the library, but it appears I created a little mystery. It may not be a good thing, since she may expect the worst, but her reaction was odd.
Today, she was still in bed when I left for work. I thought it was time to see what she would do if I initiated our good bye hug. She didn't pull away or say anything - but she didn't participate either. She was the "hugee" and I was the "hugger". I don't think it did any harm though.
I have added a new goal or watershed I want to reach with wife. I want her to contact me during the day for no real reason. This could take some time to reach, but goals help me determine progress.
This is all sooooo much work.............
I have a feeling I am not going to like what I see (or don't see) when I get home from work in a little over an hour.
I texted wife today to see how she is feeling physically today and later forwarded an email to her blackberry. I did not get a response to either one. I have the feeling she has left the house again. I am saying this now to remind myself not to react when I get home if I am right. I tore up my ticket to the rollercoaster a while ago and don't want to get back on it.
If I am right, and she has left again, I could use some support and some pointers on what to do in the next few days. I may be jumping the gun here, but nothing wrong with being prepared.
So..anyone aware of my situation....what should I do?
False Alarm....But....
Wife was in bed and sleeping when I got home. She (and therefore I)had another restless night due to her current illness. At one point during the night I made a simple comment like "did you not get the text or email I sent? - phone problems?" I received a snippy "I was busy then and blah blah". She was very cold last night. Not sure if it was due to feeling ill or feeling trapped in our house.
This morning when she left for work, she didn't even say bye or anything. I think her resentment and anger are building again. Must prepare myself for what will come. My normal instinct would be to call or text her today asking if something is wrong. But thanks to my DB knowledge I know that is fruitless. She will feel however she wants and I don't need to worry about it.
In Ontario, where we live, you must be separated for a year in order to divorce as simply as possible. I have come up with a plan for the next time she decides she can't live in the same house anymore. I will keep it to myself and only bring it up when required.
I am actually feeling quite calm and good today. I really am managing to separate my feelings and moods from hers. Still watching and planning, but not reacting without thinking.
If you were really detaching from her moods why did you ask if she received the text or email? Be nice to your W as if nothing is wrong. When things were good did you always question her everytime she didn't answer an email or text?
Actually, yes I would question her if she didn't respond at all to two messages. Although if things were good she would respond I suppose.
I think it's rude to not respond at all and I deserve some respect.
Quit pursuing! No more texts for no reason, when you see her, ask her how she is, and listen. Then if there is anything you can do, if no, leave it alone.
You are pushing her out the door.
Burt
Since she is very ill right now, I didn't think texting to ask how she is feeling is pursuing or testing for no reason - just being caring. If I never checked on her wouldn't that come across as cold and uncaring? Who wants a cold spouse?
Re: Coach's response.
If you truly wanted to know how she felt, you would not get upset at her if she did not respond to ALL of your texts.
I believe you are texting her regarding her illness to have an excuse to text her in the first place. It is for you to get a thank you for caring text back from her. This is how it comes across to me, do you think it may come across to her like this?
Let her come to you, have her be the first one to text or call or speak, then you can her ask her how she is doing. Try this, unless you think your way is working.
Burt
I'm not sure how she took it, but I really was doing nothing other than seeing how she was feeling. I wasn't all that upset that she didn't respond. Anyway...I see how she could possibly see it as pursuing, so just in case I won't do it anymore and will ask her how she is feeling when I see her at home.
I reached one of my goals with wife yesterday. She asked me if I was going grocery shopping with her. May not seem like much, but it was one of my goals I noted a short time ago. So...I have made 2 of them - sleeping in our bed and that one. Still two left - having her simply touch me for no real reason, and get the good bye hug in the morning.
We had a good day yesterday - shopped together, played scrabble and had nice dinner with S15 while d18 was at work.
Odd note from yesterday - out of the blue, my wife said "we should have your mom here for Thanksgiving". I am estranged from the rest of my family, so just having my mom would be fine. My mom has no idea of the situation with my wife and I and I believe my wife knows that. Anyway..thought that was an odd comment - nice, but odd.
I would mark that higher in the category than the shopping invitation. She is actually thinking of the future with you in it, although not very much in the future. I think this is a nice step, along with the others you noted.
Keep it up,
Burt
Well....since we are still planning on going to Mexico for XMAS with the kids as usual, it's not really that much about thinking of the future with me in it - since XMAS is afte. Still it seems odd that she would offer and open up the possibility of having to discuss our situation with my mom..
Odd thing happened this morning.
Alarm went off and first thing wife said was "what time did you come home last night?" I said "the usual" which is true. She said she didn't hear me come home - I was very quiet since me waking her up is something that really annoys her. Anyway, just odd that she was curious where I might have been. But that's not the most important thing from this morning.
We were talking for a minute or two and then I said "want a five minute cuddle? She said no. I said "how about one minute?" She said ok. We wound up cuddling in bed for 5-10 minutes. Considering we both slept naked, this is no small thing. We have not cuddled or anything close to that in the month since I returned here.
When she said "I have to get up" I said nothing and then she got ready for work and left. Still no good bye hug - but the cuddle is more than I expected.
I know some of you will say asking for a cuddle was pursuing and needy, but it's not like I begged or pleaded. Just opening the door to physical affection is important - or at least I think so.
I will make sure I don't look or try for more of the same type of affection, so that my wife doesn't think I will try to take a mile when she gives an inch.
Feedback here folks -Was it pursuing? Good or bad move?
Was she there in the cuddle or did it feel like you were hugging a piece of driftwood?
In my opinion there's nothing wrong with asking as long as internally she has all the room in the world to say no. In other words, as long as you will accept a no in the same way you would accept a yes.
Yes, it did feel like she was there. Maybe not 100%, but that is understandable. I would have excepted a no in the same way. In fact, I expected a no. I think my making no big deal out of it, and now not trying to take it further is important. In hindsight, it would have been smart for me to end it, but sometimes it's just nice to be natural and not think out every move.
When I was going throughh it all I found that giving massages were very affective. A good 10 minute massage can give her the message that your touch can feel good to her and it is in a nonsexual way. Then after a few sessions over the next few weeks, try one that is a little more sexual in nature, and look for a response. Sexual tension is good for a R.
Burt
Wife and I did not see each other yesterday due to work schedules and I was sleeping when she left for work today. I believe she is out of town for the next couple of days, so it will be interesting to see what things are like after a few days apart.
Let's see if she contacts me at all, if I don't contact her.
Oops. Let's she if she contacts me at all, WHEN I don't contact her.
I was thinking that I should let her know if I get some good news in my search for a new family doctor (the holy grail her in Ontario), but that could wait until I see her Friday or Saturday.
Wife just came home to pack for her business trip. I was upbeat, friendly and spoke briefly with her. I got dressed for my morning walk, said an upbeat "bye" and left the house before she did. Every natural instinct was to stay in the house and try to spend a few minutes with her. But I didn't. I kept my DB principles in my head and acted the way I should, not the way I wanted. I take pride in those little things.
Wife has been gone for almost a full day and no contact from her. I am keeping my promise to myself not to contact while she is away on business. Just had to come here and type that out to make sure I live it.
Hang in there, Indy. Stay the course. You're doing fine.
Keep it up, I bet she is starting to wonder what the hell is going on.
Burt
Advice needed on what to say tonight....
...when my wife comes home from her business trip and says something like "you didn't call or text me while I was away"
How about "and neither did you" - and then walk away?
How about if she says that you just say "I figured you'd be busy with work".
How about "and neither did you" - and then walk away?
That sort of sounds childish to me.
Do not respond that way, I like volleydog's response. Deflect it by asking her about her trip, and listen, be interested and end the convo first.
Burt
She didn't even ask. She just called me for no real reason, since we have not spoke since she went out of town on business a couple days ago. I made a point of not being the first to contact. I also just reached one of my goals (kinda) - to have her call me for no specific reason. I keep kinda making my goals - but there is always a bit of a condition.
She then called back to see if I was ok with going to Thanksgving dinner at her father's house. We are somewhat estranged from him, but she thought I might be "uncomfortable cosnidering our situation". I simply said "we should go" since this will definitely be her ailing Grandmother's last Thanksgiving (if she can even make it). In reference to our situation, I said "life goes on".
A short time later I called wife back with great news. I finally found our family a new doctor - but my wife is the one who really needs one and the search was 99% for her. She gave me a real "Thank You".
Not a bad hour or so?????????
When we are home together tonight, I will be my usual upbeat, happy guy but still give her space.
I forgot to ask....
Anybody have a great greeting that I can use when I walk in the door tonight? Something that conveys I missed her, am glad to see her - but does not sound needy?
I forgot to ask....
Anybody have a great greeting that I can use when I walk in the door tonight? Something that conveys I missed her, am glad to see her - but does not sound needy?
Hi!
As in...a very friendly "hi!" and then say nothing? Watch for response?
Have some conversation starters ready;
What was the most interesting part of your trip?
who did you help?
What did you learn?
Did you meet your business objective? Why?
Have some plans for the weekend.
Coach - Got it!!
I will ask open questions that require real dialogue to answer. And when she answers I will really listen. I must admit I have rarely done that when it came to discussing her work.
Wife came home after I had already gone to bed. When she got in bed I gave her an enthusiastic "hi......nice to see you". "You can't see me" - since it was dark in the room and I didn't have my contacts in. "Well...nice to feel you" followed by a touch and then a minute or so of conversation.
I then offered a cuddle. She declined, but not vehemently, so I slid over and cuddled her for a while anyway. I know some of that goes against DB principles, but I also think it doesn't hurt to shake things up and test the waters once in a while.
Agree or disagree?
This morning she was sleeping when I left for work, so I simply kissed her and left.
Disagree!! Are you crazy? Isn't this the woman that you tried to have sex with when she was passed out and she didn't want you in the same bed after that. Isn't that why she LEFT?
What part of no don't you understand? Do you have any respect for her boundaries? Apparently not. Ignoring someone's boundaries, especially in your situation, is not "shaking things up" or "testing the waters." The only "test" that is is whether you can still have your way DESPITE what she says.
If anyone says, well maybe she didn't mean it, it doesn't matter. In a healthy relationship people say what they mean and respect what someone else says.
Hmmm.....I don't think it was as extreme as your take on it, but it does make sense that she could see it as not respecting boundaries. That's why I asked for opinions. Thanks!
Breakaway - I have been thinking more about your comment. Maybe my wife did take it as "extreme" as you put it. Damn - sometimes I really don't get it. I'm going to make sure I really back off on the physical stuff now to make sure she feels safe. Thanks again.
TOOO Much testing, not much giving her space that all WAW's need.
Remember we are trying to help, start looking at the overall message from all. Are you following it, or still going off on your own, how's that working for you?
Burt
I was extra careful with the space thing this weekend.
Wife seemed very iritated Saturday night and then went to move with a friend from work. She said she was "driving herself crazy" when they called and asked what she was doing. Later she said, "I was just sitting there alone - trying to watch tv", so she went out. I was purposely leaving her alone and content watching hockey (Canadian eh)downstairs.
Sunday was a good day. Grocery shopped together and then made dinner together. Watched tv together for a while and then both of us read in bed and then went to sleep.
My wife was very ill when I came home from work last night. Another episode of her most recent problem that still hasn't been diagnosed. She was still feeling awful this morning, but went to work.
As for our relationship, it seems like we are in limboland. I believe she still really wants out and our marriage would be over today if there was a simple exit strategy. No fighting or anything, just living like roommates.
you've only been posting for a few weeks and maybe only seriously db'ing for half of that, you are still making mistakes on a quasi-daily basis.
- is your wife allowed to resolve this in her head? Does it have to be resolved on your schedule or hers? Yes living in limbo sucks, no doubt about it.
- What have you done for her lately?
- Do you come off with the type of body language that shows you are needy and need stuff from her everyday? You might be communicating this physically if not verbally.
Let her be, you be you.
Getting a life, 180's, limiting contact, going out regularly, start buying yourself new clothes, new shoes, get a new hairstyle, get to a gym, start looking fresh - you still sound like the old you and I don't even know you but that's what is communicated here.
Another 2x4 for you.
Have you apologized to her?
Have you said sorry properly?
Saying sorry is one thing but when you apologized did you say it so that you felt her pain that was caused by your actions towards her? It's a good exercise to do personally and then when you're ready, sit her down.
When you say sorry to her, you have to touch her heart, you have to say it in a way that you get inside her heart, feel her pain, understand her and her resentment towards you, and after when you've done that, ask her for forgiveness, not today or tomorrow but when she is ready to forgive you and then tell her you require nothing from her and that you aren't telling her sorry to score brownie points, you're doing it because you're genuine because maybe she doesn't feel or know the genuine you anymore. Maybe you don't know that person either.
I get it, you enjoy cuddling, touching her physically and being with her physically and the times you have felt like that with her, you may have rec'd some short term benefit from it but were you fulfilled, did you get everything you needed out of that experience? I'm guessing probably not because something is missing. Her reciprocation, her returning that feeling and she can't do that now from the place she is in.
She's hurt, confused, lost, can't make a decision and doesn't know what to do but she feels like maybe she needs to get away from you.
Being a good husband means making her feel like a good wife and instead of focusing on what she doesn't do for you, have you focused on what she does do for you?
Seriously saying sorry in a manner that really touches her heart and tells her that you finally understand her struggle is one of the hardest things to do but it's also something that needs to be done but very rarely ever gets done.
Be what you want her to be because I guarantee you, you're not what you want her to be to you.
Another thing that is killing marriages/relationships: expectations. You expect her to be a certain way and you are communicating to her that you don't accept her as she is currently, verbally and through body language and she can't reciprocate to you what you aren't doing for her. You want her to accept you and take care of you and love you and be close to you but are you doing those things for her really? Be honest. Do you accept her as she is right now? Do you love her the way she is right now. She can't accept you because you don't accept her the way she is right now and I know that the distance between the 2 of you sucks and it hurts and you want her to love you again the way she used to but she isn't in a place in her life that allows for that. When you touch her, does she feel like it's a loving touch or a physical sexual touch, both are important but I would wager a guess that for you, you do the latter, you don't make her feel loved without wanting to grope her and get some sexual satisfaction from it.
Give her time, space and accept her as she is.
Be a great person for yourself, have low to no expectations of her, pull back a little, having high expectation of how things should be is alot of pressure on you & her. Pull back! I'm telling you, pull back! You're crowding her, she needs time & space to heal from whatever hurt she is feeling. You need to heal too, you need to spend some time with a counsellor for yourself personally and explain all of this and what you're feeling and you need to learn a way to cope with your feelings, cope with how you feel things "should be", cope with the neediness, cope with the insecurity, copy with the clinginess.
You need some space too, you need to re-evaluate your life and get what you want in life that doesn't require her.
Lovingly detach from her, be a great person in her life, imagine the way you want her to be with you and be that person for her, do it for a week, and then 2 weeks and then 4 weeks and so & so forth. I guarantee you it's harder than you think to pull this off and this is exactly what you want from her.
You want something from her, give it to her first.
I hope some of this got through to you, it's one of the most important things you'll ever need to learn here.
Today marks 6 weeks since I came back to this site in an attempt to bust our divorce for a second time. I think it would be good for me to try to do a state of the union as objectively as possible.
Goals Met And Other Good Things:
1. My wife is back in our house.
2. I am back in our bed.
3. There has been a couple of cuddles and hugs.
4. She has called me a few times while I am at work.
5. She has invited me to go grocery shopping etc with her.
6. We speak to each other fairly "normally" at times
7. There has been no R talk and she has made no comments about proceeding beyond where we are at this time.
Goals Not Met and Negative Things:
1. Still no good bye hug when she leaves before me in morning.
2. I have not received "a touch" for no reason as part of daily life.
3. No intimacy of any kind. We live like roommates.
4. Wife seems angry at times and very distant.
5. That "feeling" is still there - sometimes I swear I can feel her resentment, anger and frustration.
6. I believe she would be gone if there was an easy way out.
7. She is cold to me most of the time.
So...I suppose things are where they should be expected 6 weeks in. As for me personally, I am far more calm and focused than I was. I am prepared for any outcome and have even thought of the possible good things in a new life as a single man. I am taking better care of myself and doing things I enjoy.
We are still planning on going away for XMAS as usual, so I know nothing major will happen until after that. That means I have at least 3 months to continue my db efforts. Later today I am going to think over the last 6 weeks and re-focus and make sure my work is in the right direction.
Robx - I made my post above without seeing your post first. Not sure why I didn't see it.
I have been really trying to care for her. As noted, she is having several health issues and I have done literally everything I can do to help. I even managed to get a new family doctor - a feat that is virtually impossible here in Ontario. And yes, I have done all this expecting nothing in return. Really. I must say if actually feels good to do good with no expectations.
I agree that a genuine apology is needed. I just don't think she is ready to really hear it yet. I'm not afraid to do it, I just want to make sure it's done at the right time. It will be genuine, as I know I really am sorry for my past behaviour.
Things I said and did made a woman who adored me, no longer want to be near me. That's a tough thing to accept, but it's true.
I am having a tough time finding the right line between giving her space and trying to be there for her while she is ill, her grandmother is dying and she is very stressed at work.
I don't think I am seeming needy anymore. I don't even feel as needy as I did. I will pay more attention to my body language.
Thanks for stopping by. I always appreciate your blunt approach.
you've only been posting for a few weeks and maybe only seriously db'ing for half of that, you are still making mistakes on a quasi-daily basis.
- is your wife allowed to resolve this in her head? Does it have to be resolved on your schedule or hers? Yes living in limbo sucks, no doubt about it.
- What have you done for her lately?
- Do you come off with the type of body language that shows you are needy and need stuff from her everyday? You might be communicating this physically if not verbally.
Let her be, you be you.
Getting a life, 180's, limiting contact, going out regularly, start buying yourself new clothes, new shoes, get a new hairstyle, get to a gym, start looking fresh - you still sound like the old you and I don't even know you but that's what is communicated here.
Another 2x4 for you.
Have you apologized to her?
Have you said sorry properly?
Saying sorry is one thing but when you apologized did you say it so that you felt her pain that was caused by your actions towards her? It's a good exercise to do personally and then when you're ready, sit her down.
When you say sorry to her, you have to touch her heart, you have to say it in a way that you get inside her heart, feel her pain, understand her and her resentment towards you, and after when you've done that, ask her for forgiveness, not today or tomorrow but when she is ready to forgive you and then tell her you require nothing from her and that you aren't telling her sorry to score brownie points, you're doing it because you're genuine because maybe she doesn't feel or know the genuine you anymore. Maybe you don't know that person either.
I get it, you enjoy cuddling, touching her physically and being with her physically and the times you have felt like that with her, you may have rec'd some short term benefit from it but were you fulfilled, did you get everything you needed out of that experience? I'm guessing probably not because something is missing. Her reciprocation, her returning that feeling and she can't do that now from the place she is in.
She's hurt, confused, lost, can't make a decision and doesn't know what to do but she feels like maybe she needs to get away from you.
Being a good husband means making her feel like a good wife and instead of focusing on what she doesn't do for you, have you focused on what she does do for you?
Seriously saying sorry in a manner that really touches her heart and tells her that you finally understand her struggle is one of the hardest things to do but it's also something that needs to be done but very rarely ever gets done.
Be what you want her to be because I guarantee you, you're not what you want her to be to you.
Another thing that is killing marriages/relationships: expectations. You expect her to be a certain way and you are communicating to her that you don't accept her as she is currently, verbally and through body language and she can't reciprocate to you what you aren't doing for her. You want her to accept you and take care of you and love you and be close to you but are you doing those things for her really? Be honest. Do you accept her as she is right now? Do you love her the way she is right now. She can't accept you because you don't accept her the way she is right now and I know that the distance between the 2 of you sucks and it hurts and you want her to love you again the way she used to but she isn't in a place in her life that allows for that. When you touch her, does she feel like it's a loving touch or a physical sexual touch, both are important but I would wager a guess that for you, you do the latter, you don't make her feel loved without wanting to grope her and get some sexual satisfaction from it.
Give her time, space and accept her as she is.
Be a great person for yourself, have low to no expectations of her, pull back a little, having high expectation of how things should be is alot of pressure on you & her. Pull back! I'm telling you, pull back! You're crowding her, she needs time & space to heal from whatever hurt she is feeling. You need to heal too, you need to spend some time with a counsellor for yourself personally and explain all of this and what you're feeling and you need to learn a way to cope with your feelings, cope with how you feel things "should be", cope with the neediness, cope with the insecurity, copy with the clinginess.
You need some space too, you need to re-evaluate your life and get what you want in life that doesn't require her.
Lovingly detach from her, be a great person in her life, imagine the way you want her to be with you and be that person for her, do it for a week, and then 2 weeks and then 4 weeks and so & so forth. I guarantee you it's harder than you think to pull this off and this is exactly what you want from her.
You want something from her, give it to her first.
I hope some of this got through to you, it's one of the most important things you'll ever need to learn here.
PHENOMENAL post, Rob.
Puppy
And yes, I have done all this expecting nothing in return. Really. I must say if actually feels good to do good with no expectations.
Your posts
REEK of "expectation," and if we can feel it on here, than I GUARANTEE your wife can feel it . . . daily.
(was that blunt enough for you?
)
Puppy
PHENOMENAL post, Rob.
Puppy
Yeah, what's up? Is Rob start to get all warm and fuzzy on us?
And yes, I have done all this expecting nothing in return. Really. I must say if actually feels good to do good with no expectations.
Your posts
REEK of "expectation," and if we can feel it on here, than I GUARANTEE your wife can feel it . . . daily.
(was that blunt enough for you?
)
Puppy
Really? Please clarify. How/why do my posts reek of expectation? Sure, I have my wants, but am I kidding myself that I am not expecting???
Indy,
I don't have the time to go back and pull specifics. It was just my general impression; others may disagree. You just seem VERY disappointed when your wife doesn't respond to your words and actions, and it comes across as "clingy" to me (and I'm not the only one that has used that word on your thread).
If I get a chance, I'll try to go back and pull a couple of specifics; I'm not trying to be obtuse.
Puppy
Maybe general impression is actually more important than specifics. Those specifics wouldn't exist in my daily life, but the general impression may - and that is not a good thing.
I suppose I still have not really detached. And as long as I don't I will be looking for responses from my wife. Time for some real honest soul searching. The work continues.....
PHENOMENAL post, Rob.
Puppy
- you know I come here just to get your praise PDT ;-)
I don't know if I've told you this lately but you're pretty damn cool too!
I for one have been following and I have to agree with rob and Puppy.
It is OK by the way, I have been in that same needy state as well, then my wife, luckily came to me and said stop trying to fix me, I have to fix myself. This was after I wrote her a note that was a light hearted, funny note that just said that I was thinking about her. That is when it really hit that my note was not a message from me caring about her, it was a note for her to hurry up and change and she called me on it. It was then I finally got it, and I thank God she communicated it with me.
Burt
PHENOMENAL post, Rob.
Puppy
Yeah, what's up? Is Rob start to get all warm and fuzzy on us?
I'm starting to get the feeling that I'm regarded as the forum "prick" around here LOL!
Hopefully I don't come off as a total hardass, I get it, my life has changed more in the past 2 years than at any other point in my life. It's been hard, still is hard but I'm more self-aware (if that even came out properly) than ever before.
I make a ton of mistakes, seriously I do. More than most people I'm sure but I've learned so much from all of this. It's unfortunate to be separated from your spouse or to get divorced, to break up, etc. But there were gifts that this process provided as well, the kind of life education that you won't soon get at any university or high school.
In conclusion, i found my nuts, I hold on to them now, they're not sitting in my wife's purse anymore, although there is more shifting required now that they're in their original home again ;-), I wouldn't have it any other way.
I went from being weak to being uber strong, I'm trying to find my middle ground - my balance or harmony if that's a better description, regardless of my marriage and it's ultimate outcome.
So am I getting warm & fuzzy, maybe or maybe I was warm & fuzzy all along, you just didn't know it yet.
As far as the post above, i think it's pretty darn accurate for most relationships, super high expectations, low acceptance of the other person. It's hard, you start fighting, you start expecting more, you forget that when you first hooked up, you weren't working on a relationship, it just happened, you had no expectations, you accepted the other person, being fun & happy came easily, you got married and things changed - having fun & being loving & caring got mixed up along with work, responsibilities, kids, money issues, bills, mortgages, etc. Date night was a regular thing before all of this and then it became the exception rather than the rule, we got married, stopped trying to impress the other person, we could relax, we're married now, hitched for life, smooth sailing, don't have to dress up anymore, don't have to impress, don't have to put the right foot forward. It's not that those things don't matter but getting in a relationship, after a few years we all relax, don't try as hard, we get fat & lazy (metaphorically speaking & physically). The relationship than seems like work, work isn't fun, I work all god damn day, when I come home I want to relax, why do I have to try so hard, why do I have to put some much effort into this, this sucks, you've changed - no you've changed, this isn't fun anymore, you better change otherwise I'll leave you, what happened to better or worse, why can't you accept me as I am - why can't YOU accept me as I am, you're supposed to love me no matter what.
Unconditional love left, replaced with conditional love, the conditions keep being added to the list, I love you BUT... started appearing more regularly, you started disliking each other, you started being uncomfortable around each other, one person wants to fix this more than the other person, you start hating each other.
Then you're both eat a big ol' bowl of $hit soup and you wonder how you got where you are right now. It's easy, just trace ALL of your steps, you'll see how you got here.
Then new people get involved, at first it's nothing big, casual conversation and then it slowly becomes more. It's new, it's exciting, there is no work involved and work isn't fun and this new person is fun.
And so on and so forth, wash rinse repeat.
After the divorce, you find yourself in the same situation a few years down the road, the only difference is you're lying next to a different warm/cold body ;-)
Hopefully I don't sound too cynical.
One thing for sure, I am way too verbose, I'm surprised my lengthy posts haven't shutdown the web server for this site LOL!
Rob, I think you nailed it.
Burt
I think he nailed it too - now if only the spouses of everyone here could read it.
I sat in the hot tub last night (that's my best thinking place)and really considered my seeming needy/clingy etc. I believe it comes from not detaching properly. If I am 100% honest with myself, I can't say I have actually detached. I am trying to make it appear that I have, but not truly done so.
So...I will work on that and in combination creating more space between wife and I. While trying to be supportive and caring for my wife during her illness and other issues, my actions may come across as desparate actions to win her back. I need to find that fine line between "being there" and looking like a doormat who will do anything to win back his woman.
When I feel that I am doing all that properly, then that will be the correct time for a genuine apology - not just for the things I have done, but how they made my wife feel.
This is becoming my new full time job......
Journaling...
It was Thanksgiving weekend here in Canada. Wife, kids and I went to her father's for dinner. We have not done that in years due to strained relations - but it went fairly well.
Wife was a little warmer to me the last couple of days. Spoke to me more and didn't feel as cold. She is still feeling ill and very stressed out at work (as usual) so even if things were "normal" she could be expected to only be so nice. But, overall she did seem friendlier.
But...then last night she did something odd. She didn't sleep naked as she has forever. I have also noticed that she seems to make an effort to keep her body covered by blanket during the night. I may be making too much of this, but considering how she feels about me sexually, maybe not. I am doing well with the detachment, so this really isn't bothering me - just noting it.
In fact, the detachment seems to be coming more naturally now. My wife has a busy work and social week planned, and I don't care. We likely won't really see each other until Sunday, and that's fine with me. I'm at the point again, where any outcome is ok with me. I just want to live my life more fully - with or without her.
My wife started hiding herself from me after the bomb, I came back with covering myself up as well. As if we do not know what their bodies look like. This is a natural thing, she thinks that she is doing you a favor by not getting you going by being nude in front of you.
By covering youself up you will confuse her, and anything to confuse their crazy thought processes is a good thing.
Burt
Good idea dburt
I think I will mirror her - cover up when she does and don't when she doesn't.
Yeah, what's up? Is Rob start to get all warm and fuzzy on us?
Hey......In case you don't know, Rob is one of
Sandi's boys and I had to work on this "nice guy" to toughen him up! That's right, he was an origianl nice guy! But, look at him now!
(Just couldn't resist, Rob.)
So are you solidly in the "nice guys finish last" school of thought?
So are you solidly in the "nice guys finish last" school of thought?
There's nothing wrong with being a nice guy.
What you DON'T want to be, is a Nice Guy.
Puppy
When I came home from work last night, my wife was watching a movie with d18 and her friends. I got an enthusiastic "hello wave". This morning wife was friendly again and not nearly as cold as she has been either.
This afternoon, we may be home together. If so, I am thinking the timing might be right for a genuine, heartfelt apology - for the things I have done - but more exactly for how those things hurt her.
Is this the right time - just as she seems to be waming up a little?
Wife and I were home together yesterday all afternoon and evening - but at no point did the timing feel right for the apology, so I never made it. I think it's an important part of the healing process and I need to make it for my own sake. Somehow it will help me to forgive myself which is important regardless of outcome.
Wife continued to be friendly and more talkative last night. The though part is to not get too excited by that or let that allow me to step past any boundaries. She is feeling quite ill again, but despite that has been quite pleasant to me.
Other than making that apology, I think it's time to back off again and watch for reaction. She may think I am getting too comfortable - and I just may be too.
Some interesting things to note from last night. Feedback appreciated on any:
When I got home from work last night, I purposely kept myself busy away from wife. Nothing special - just reading in bed while she was watching tv downstairs. She came to bed a short time later to read as well. When I got up a few minutes later, she thought I was leaving room and said something like "you keep running away from me tonight". I said "actually I was just going to remove my contacts and go to the bathroom". No big deal - but worth noting.
About 5:00 am she woke me up because she thought she heard someone in the house. False alarm, but since we were lying there unable to go back to sleep, I figured it was a good time for the apology. I think I said it well, but there was no response at all and keeping dbing in mind, I said nothing else.
Later I asked how she wanted to recognize our 17th anniversary next month. We agreed that going to dinner would be fine, but as for going to an inn for the night, her response was "don't you think that's a little romantic?"
All that lead to a brief R talk - the first one in about 7 weeks.
Following are a few excerpts - somewhat out of context.
Wife - "I don't feel like having sex with you. That could change, and I don't mean to be hurtful, just honest".
Me - no response
Wife - "You can have sex with someone else if you want. You are my pseudo-husband and I am your pseudo wife".
Me- no reponse
To me sounds like the comment from someone having an affair of some type - but not sure.
Wife - regarding physical contact of any kind - "You will get the wrong impression"
Me - "How do you know that? - You have no idea how I think"
Me - I think lately things feel different - more relaxed
Wife - "yes, more free"
I think her using the word free is certainly of note.
Various comments I remember...
Me - I have the right to sleep in my own bed - if you don't like it, you can sleep elsewhere
Wife - we could be kinda married for 10 years
Me - yes we can afford for one of us to rent an apartment, but I am not leaving my house and kids
Me - there are laws here - we need to be separated one year before divorce
End result of conversation - we will continue to be "pseudo-spouses" in the same house until at least June - end of school year. So...it looks like I have 8 months to apply db skills before separation and in that time we have our anniversary, and annual XMAS vacation in Mexico which should be times to focus on the good.
Also, the conversation remained calm and neither of us went away angry - at least not showing it.
Wife and I may not see each other much until Sunday, but the next couple of days will be interesting. I will really try to "read" her.
Any thoughts or comments appreciated.
I am sure I left out other things....but just remembered this -
Wife agreed to go to my company Christmas party. As I mentioned before, I have kept my personal life just that - personal and no one at my workplace knows of our situation.
I would like some feedback from the pros: Coach, Dia, Greek, Gucci, and of course, RobX. Fire away.
Wife - "I don't feel like having sex with you. That could change, and I don't mean to be hurtful, just honest".
Me - no response
Wife - "You can have sex with someone else if you want. You are my pseudo-husband and I am your pseudo wife".
Me- no reponse
To me sounds like the comment from someone having an affair of some type - but not sure.
Wife - regarding physical contact of any kind - "You will get the wrong impression"
Me - "How do you know that? - You have no idea how I think"
Me - I think lately things feel different - more relaxed
Wife - "yes, more free"
I think her using the word free is certainly of note.
That comment from her of "you can have sex with someone else if you want", that's a little unsettling, if she is giving you a free pass here, it could mean she wants to give herself a free pass as well.... or.... it could mean nothing at all, just someone who is uninterested in sex.
This could also be a test, women test men constantly, they want to make sure the men they're with are strong & secure. If this would ever come up again, and she says something similar, my response would be, "are you serious?! you mean you wouldn't get angry? COOL!!!" and smile at her.
Gauge her response.
When she says things like that to you, don't ask her if she wants to sleep with other men, you don't care at this point. Plus it would show insecurity.
Keep doing what you're doing as far as limiting your contact away from her, she is noticing, she may not say it out loud but she is noticing and she is wondering what you're up to.
Sorry Dburt you should have been on the list of names I mentioned....
I have no idea what "btt" means!
When I got home from work last night, for some reason just being around wife put me in a bad mood. Normally, I would not let it show, but I this time I did. Nothing major - but wife immediately became cold and rude. She then went to a movie with a male friend from work (ea or pa?) and came home at 2:00am. They work in a restaruant bar and went there after the movie. Tonight she has plans to go out with work friends again.
Anyway...I think last night was a definite slip backwards. Nothing I can't recover from. Again, today though I have that "is this really worth it feeling?". I suppose you can't always be positive.
I'll get through the work day today and try to make sure I am better tomorrow when the family is home together.
When I got home from work last night, for some reason just being around wife put me in a bad mood. Normally, I would not let it show, but I this time I did. Nothing major - but wife immediately became cold and rude. She then went to a movie with a male friend from work (ea or pa?) and came home at 2:00am. They work in a restaruant bar and went there after the movie. Tonight she has plans to go out with work friends again.
Anyway...I think last night was a definite slip backwards. Nothing I can't recover from. Again, today though I have that "is this really worth it feeling?". I suppose you can't always be positive.
I'll get through the work day today and try to make sure I am better tomorrow when the family is home together.
That is crap.
She went out with a male friend to a movie and to a restaurant until 2am?
When is the last time she did that with you?
And you didn't bust her on it?
Boundaries? She is stepping all over them, she's pushing past boundaries and testing to see how much she can run you over.
And you're letting her.
Talk to her about it.
Tell her it's not cool.
You're married.
If she wants to go out with her girlfriends and have an evening that's great, but what she did with that guy is pretty much a date - are you cool with that? Is it ok with you that your wife is dating others right infront of you? Put your foot down, not in an a$$hole type way, but in a strong calm way that says "you want to date other guys, fine. Do it when the divorce is final and when you've moved out, you aren't living here with me and sleeping in MY bed and dating other men, I won't allow it, I would rather you leave first. Respect this request or leave, the choice is now yours."
You're establishing that she can't date other men while she's living in your home and sleeping in your bed. She can sleep on the couch if she wants to, at this point, you need to show her you respect yourself, without this, she won't & can't respect you, I promise you this to be true.
This trip you have planned, seriously bro, you are rewarding her crap behavior by giving her gifts, you are training her for lack of a better word: "it's ok, you can continue to treat me poorly and I will buy you gifts, take you on trips, and be super nice to you because I'm not as valuable as you are and I need to do these things to equal your existing value."
Not cool and not the way to keep your wife either, counter intuitive but everything that works in these situations is counter intuitive.
Stop doing what doesn't work, start doing what does work.
If you are still planning to go on that trip, maybe go by yourself, get her to watch the kids, and take a friend, she doesn't have to know who, it could be anyone.
No more rewarding her crap behavior.
You mentioned the other night she started talking about freedom and that you could pursue sex with another woman, a few flags should start appearing in your mind on this: why would someone give this permission to you if they haven't given themselves the same permission already. I think she used the word "pseudo" to describe your relationship, pseudo-husband/wife, to her it's just a title right now, nothing more.
Playing xbox isn't GAL, getting out of the house is.
She did it, she went out on a date apparently and you posted it here on the forum to get feedback, apparently it woke you up enough to think about it, that's GAL is. If you're staying at home all the time, that isn't GAL, she knows exactly where you are, where is the mystery in that?
RobX
Your post gave me the courage to call her right after reading and tell her the truth about why I was upset last night - heck, it made me tell myself the truth!
I was calm and basically said that in my mind we are still married and when she spends the night with another man it upsets me. She may not care if I did the same, but we are different people in different places in our hearts and minds. I wasn't needy or wimpy - but I was honest with her and to me.
This resulted in another brief covnersation that actually went rather well.
She states this man is just a friend (considering who he is - I believe it) and that she has no interest in pursuing anyone else at this time. To quote "while we are still (just) living together, I have no interest in doing anything after our 21 years together".
So..I made my thoughts and feelings clear, but without begging or pleading. Good for me.
As for the trip, it's more about spending XMAS away with the kids as we do every year. I'm not sure it's the right thing to do, but as long as we are still "playing house" I think there is nothing wrong with going. The trip is not something I am buying to reward her - it's something we are paying for out of family budget for the family. I want and need my XMAS vacation and want to spend it with my kids. For me.
She states this man is just a friend (considering who he is - I believe it)
I don't.
I know it's possible that my wife is having an affair of some sort with this man - or even another, but my gut just doesn't say so. And...my wife has always been the kind of person who believes two people can be friends regardless of their sexes. I believe she would be honest about it, since in her mind we are "only living together" and are only a "pseudo couple" - and she would feel no need to hide a new relationship.
Anyway...at this point, I think I have to go with my gut, but do a little snooping and keep the possibility in mind. At least I told her the truth about how I feel regarding either of us in relationships of any kind at this time.
Notes from the weekend. I made one of my goals - wife touched me for no reason. Nothing major - but still worth noting. She has a real issue with physical touch between us, and on 2 occasions yesterday, gently touched me in passing when not required.
I did some thinking and believe it's time to hit the reset button. I am going to really focus on a few of the db basics that I know worked last time - I think they are on Sandi's list: end the conversation, leave the room first, etc.
I really need to work on the positive body language. Going to do some self education on that today.
I also need to create some mystery. I am a creature of habit and a loner who likes to be at home. I need to force myself to not always be where she expects me to be. I need to GAL outside my home. I don't want to do things that aren't really me (changes for real - not just for show) but need to expand my horizons.
Busy work week coming up. Wife and I will barely see each other. I think that's a good thing. Being around her too much, makes me want more and I think she feels that. I come across as needy. Time to change that to needed.
btt means back to the top, what I do to make sure you get enough people to read you, and when I am unsure of advice.
Burt
I know it's possible that my wife is having an affair of some sort with this man - or even another, but my gut just doesn't say so. And...my wife has always been the kind of person who believes two people can be friends regardless of their sexes. I believe she would be honest about it, since in her mind we are "only living together" and are only a "pseudo couple" - and she would feel no need to hide a new relationship.
That's a pesky one.
Absolutely agree with you on the "getting back to DB basics" and "creating mystique," tho. If you do those things, it really doesn't matter if she's having an affair or not. I'd just rather see you operate from an assumption that she IS, than to build yourself up for possible disappointment that she ISN'T, when she still seems foggy to me.
Puppy
I agree Puppy.
Even though my gut tells me otherwise, I have mentally prepared myself for the possibility of another man. I think we should all prepare for the possibility of someone else.
At the same time, I don't want to assume that there is someone either. No need to add a factor that isn't there.
Bottom line is - right now it doesn't matter. Some day it could, but not right how.
Gotta share this....
My wife just called me at work because she thought she saw me drive by her while I should be here. Looks like some guy with a car like my unkowingly created mystery for me. I said "you could have just texted me". Of course, she called here to ensure I was actually here, instead of just claiming to be.
I know Puppy and RobX....maybe she thinks I'm not at work when I am supposed to be, because sometimes she isn't.
Gotta share this....
My wife just called me at work because she thought she saw me drive by her while I should be here. Looks like some guy with a car like my unkowingly created mystery for me. I said "you could have just texted me". Of course, she called here to ensure I was actually here, instead of just claiming to be.
I know Puppy and RobX....maybe she thinks I'm not at work when I am supposed to be, because sometimes she isn't.
That's a great story. When my wife was having her affair, she'd often call me at work, even though we were barely speaking at night when we both were home. When I'd pick up, she'd have some stupid excuse for calling me, and I quickly figured out that she was just checking to see if I was there, no doubt b/c she was planning a hook-up with Pimple (OM).
So I began to NOT ANSWER the calls, even though I was "safely" here at my desk, a 35-40 minute drive away from their hook-up house.
A little paranoia, and/or
affairus interruptus, never hurt anyone, ya know.
This morning I actually did drive past her while she was in her car. I texted "this time it really was me".
I know it was unecessary contact, but it made my day.
She states this man is just a friend (considering who he is - I believe it)
I don't.
Me neither.
I would never have believed my wife could have an EA, even when the signs were all in front of me. She is totally not his type, either. But the emails and text msgs I discovered are hard to refute.
You're better off accepting the worst-case scenario (and be willing to forgive when the time comes) than living in denial.
Bah, I meant to say "he is not her type".
This morning I actually did drive past her while she was in her car. I texted "this time it really was me".
I know it was unecessary contact, but it made my day.
BOOO! HISSS!!!
LOOKING FOR FEEDBACK REGARDING THE FOLLOWING:
As you may know if you have read this thread my wife has ongoing medical issues. The current most important involves severe stomach pains, vomiting blood etc. We have no dianosis at this time. Since nothing will ease the pain without causing side effects that will worsen other conditions, a while ago I suggested she try smoking marijuana - I even got some for her. Neither of us had used illegal drugs in almost 20 years.
She has smoked it the odd time in the last year or so. Tuesday night she was really troubled and decided to smoke some. I wound up smoking with her. While it did relieve her pain (and make her a little stoned) it really made me stoned. Bottom line - my wife and I had sex for the first time in approx. 4 months. I absolutely initiated it and at first she was not interested, but then became a willing participant. However, after she wound up crying. That could have been from the drugs or ????. I tried to talk to her about it, but since I was still feeling the affects, I didn't think it was a good time to press at all. And in my state, was able to remember at least on db principle - not to talk when she does not want to.
Yesterday I had to leave home very early and we texted a couple times during the day. One of her texts said "no drugs for you". I think it was meant in a somewhat humorous way. Last night she seemed fine and was not rude to me or angry with me. In fact, she brought dinner home for me from the restaraunt she works in. She never brought up the subject, so either did I.
Tonight she will be out of town for work and Fridays we usually don't see each other until very late. So..we probably won't really see each other until Saturday.
My question is - do I bring this situation up at all or just take it for granted that we both know it was a "mistake" of sorts fueled by drug use? Do I wait for her to say something?
If it were me, I wouldn't bring it up.
Puppy
Ok Puppy. Advice taken.
I will read how things go over the next few days and only discuss it if it seems necessary.
I think if it does come up, you should treat it as lightly as possible. You know, "Hey, no big deal -- it was fun, and I think it's good that we can still have fun together, despite everything that's happened. No expectations on my end."
Upbeat.
Perfect Puppy...well almost. Since her crying would mean that at some point she didn't think it was fun, I might want to change it a little. But...definitely, keep it light and focus on the fact that we certainly still can have fun. I did make the "no expectations" comment that night. I may have been under the influence, but still kept some of my db principles.
Ahhh, gotcha. Yeah, I missed that part.
Maybe something then like:
"Hey, no big deal -- it was fun, and I think it's good that we can still have fun together, despite everything that's happened. Certainly no expectations on my end. I do worry about you sometimes, when you get upset, but I figure you'll talk to me about that when you feel comfortable. At least I hope you will."
Yesterday I had to leave home very early and we texted a couple times during the day. One of her texts said "no drugs for you". I think it was meant in a somewhat humorous way. Last night she seemed fine and was not rude to me or angry with me. In fact, she brought dinner home for me from the restaraunt she works in. She never brought up the subject, so either did I.
Leave it as is,
I agree, she texted you about "no more drugs for you", it was her way of joking with you, adding some comedy to the event, she sees that it was funny and she sees how it happened, and I don't think she is angry with you. Don't focus on the words, focus on her actions, do you think she would be angry with you after something like that and bring dinner home to you? Since she never brought it up, leave it as, if she wants to talk about it, let her but only respond with answers, don't try to ask her about her feelings or anything like that, if she wants to open up to you, it's her choice to do so, don't force it out of her.
Enjoy it for what it was and leave it at that.
I'm no doctor, but it sounds like your wife could have a bleeding stomach ulcer.
She could have cried because sex is emotional for her. She could of cried because she doesn't want to feel a connection with you but she does. She could have cried because it was Wednesday. Who knows.
Not a bleeding ulcer. That and a ton of other things have been ruled out.
Little thing worth mentioning...
Yesterday I had a special event at work that required me to dress up more than my usual business casual. I bought a few new pieces and put together a great look. Wife was in bed while I was getting dressed, and watched me. Anyway, wife was out of town on business last night and was texting d18. She told her to tell me that I looked really good. At least I know she noticed.
I called wife this morning regarding a basic issue. She wound up venting to me regarding work issues for quite some time. She then told me she won't be staying late at work tonight as she does EVERY Frdiay night for her "girls night". Odd.
Very bad day today. I have lost all my confidence and belief that there is any possibility of saving my marriage.
A simple comment to wife this morning, led to an R talk in which I forgot every db basic. I cried in front of my wife, showed my neediness and dispair. I was weak, unattractive, and desparate.
To make things worse, D18 heard most of conversation. That led to a rare talk between us, but that was the only possible good thing in an awful day. My daughter and wife are very close, and daughter told me just how much my wife wants out NOW and how much she hates living with me - even as "pseudo spouses".
Later, my wife confirmed she really does feel that way, and is only here now, for financial and logistical reasons. I also found out she does not want to celebrate our anniversary on Nov, 7 as she previously agreed to. Basically she just agreed to appease me. She is also more sure than ever that she will move out in June.
Even more pain - I found out neither of our kids want to stay with me after wife moves out. I had planned on staying in our house for the year separation legally required for "simple" divorce here in Ontario. It goes against my core being and dbing, but the only reasonable option at that time, may be for me to move out. I will deal with that probelm then.
Right now, I have to find a way to just be ok. I got smacked by reality today and it hurts. There is a danger in dbing - thinking that you really can change things. You need to be positive and believe, but that can also set you up for gut wrenching disappointment.
I am lost today. I want to cry. I want it over. I am empty. I ache. Somehow, I need to get it all back together and still try to save my marriage, but be better prepared for the worst.
I need to make me better.
How do I re-focus? What do I do tonight when wife comes home?
I need some help today from the pros.
Very bad day today. I have lost all my confidence and belief that there is any possibility of saving my marriage.
A simple comment to wife this morning, led to an R talk in which I forgot every db basic. I cried in front of my wife, showed my neediness and dispair. I was weak, unattractive, and desparate.
To make things worse, D18 heard most of conversation. That led to a rare talk between us, but that was the only possible good thing in an awful day. My daughter and wife are very close, and daughter told me just how much my wife wants out NOW and how much she hates living with me - even as "pseudo spouses".
Later, my wife confirmed she really does feel that way, and is only here now, for financial and logistical reasons. I also found out she does not want to celebrate our anniversary on Nov, 7 as she previously agreed to. Basically she just agreed to appease me. She is also more sure than ever that she will move out in June.
Even more pain - I found out neither of our kids want to stay with me after wife moves out. I had planned on staying in our house for the year separation legally required for "simple" divorce here in Ontario. It goes against my core being and dbing, but the only reasonable option at that time, may be for me to move out. I will deal with that probelm then.
Right now, I have to find a way to just be ok. I got smacked by reality today and it hurts. There is a danger in dbing - thinking that you really can change things. You need to be positive and believe, but that can also set you up for gut wrenching disappointment.
I am lost today. I want to cry. I want it over. I am empty. I ache. Somehow, I need to get it all back together and still try to save my marriage, but be better prepared for the worst.
I need to make me better.
Is your love a real love or a selfish love,
is your love about loving your wife or is it about what you're getting out of all of this?
Read that last part you wrote.
"I need to make me better"
What you're purpose with this.
You want to do something but what's your goal?
Yeah you backpedalled something fierce and you pretty much destroyed any progress you had been making.
But so what.
Are you a quitter?
This is a test.
You are being tested.
Are you the kind of man your wife wants to be married to right now? NO
Can you be? Maybe - I think that part is up to you.
Do you love her because you're selfish and just want her to be there for you and do stuff for you.
Or do you love her because you love her and want to do things for you?
Someone made a pretty good analogy about this the other day,
if you view your marriage relationship as an investment, where whatever you invest, you want greater returns from, you are looking at it the wrong way and setting yourself up for failure & disappointment. Don't expect to get more out of her based on what you invest in her & the relationship - you're not investing in your relationship to get something out of her, you're investing in her & the relationship because you love her and want to do these things.
Pick yourself, dust yourself off, start back on DAY 1, back to basics.
RobX
I think my love is real. It sure feels that way - now, more than ever.
When I said I need to make me better, I meant now. I need to get through this day. I need to be a better man for myself, my kids, for our future. But right now, I just need to feel ok.
No I am not a quitter. Certainly not at this. But...it's more than just "so what". I blew it.
I am sure to my wife this was not some test from her. She wasn't testing me. That's the reality that hit me today, she couldn't bother to waste one second testing me. I have failed every "test" in the past. She has no more tests for me.
Of course I am not the kind of man she wants to be married to. I wouldn't even know this site exists if I was. Can I be? Yes!
Will she see it? believe it? be willing to risk being hurt again? I honestly don't think so. Sometimes one partner is truly done.
I love her because I do. I love her because it feels right. I don't love her because I want things from her. I can get things from other women. Yes, I want her to give me her world and give her mine back, but right now I don't actually expect anything in return for my love. I just want her to accept it.
As for your anology, today it feels like I am investing in Lehman Brothers the day before the poop hit the fan.
I have no choice other than starting all over again. The problem is finding a happy median between being realistic and being positive.
Can I really do my work so well, that I can actually bust our divorce for a second time? I refuse to give up, but it just feels so hopeless at the same time.
Very bad day today. I have lost all my confidence and belief that there is any possibility of saving my marriage.
We've all been there.
I forgot every db basic. I cried in front of my wife, showed my neediness and dispair. I was weak, unattractive, and desparate.
Been there, too and not only duringpost-bomb meltdown. We all backslide; this is
emotional hell.
You got smacked from all sides today, man. Go someplace, lick your wounds and come back and act out your life as if your marriage is truly over. It may very well be, based on things W & D said.
I will tell you, though, this certainly stood out:
There is a danger in dbing - thinking that you really can change things.
If you've been trying to change your sitch you
know you're setting yourself up to fall and fail. Change YOU. You have to. Besides, D18 is watching you. Watching to see what you do.
I need to make me better.
Yes you do. It's all you
can do right now.
And do it you can.
You must.
Prayers for you on an awful day.
I have managed to get myself together.
Went for a walk, made dinner for S15 (almost 16) and I, had a JD and coke and watched a little tv. I know I need to calm down for my sake and son's sake and to present a better me when my wife comes home tonight.
I think I really do need to truly accept that my marriage may be over. I thought I had done that, but honestly I have not.
I am preparing for another kick in the head....
Tomorrow night my wife is going to a "psychic party" with friends from work. I would bet anything the psychic will see a great future for my wife - without me. Sometimes, I swear the marriage Gods are against me.
Well Indy. Some times they are not looking at your marriage and looking at my marriage.
Go to bed tonight and get a good sleep.
Tomorrow when you swing your feet out of bed. Be happy. You made it another day. And that day will be a day with no R talks. If they start up at all just excuse yourself from the conversation. Lets see if you can make it one day with no R talk at all. And who cares about a psychic.
Too late Cutterbug. I got shot in the head with more reality when she came home last night.
She is now moving out in January. She still wants to take S16 and D18 away for Chistmas - one final family thing - and then move out only days aftr we return. I know going away will be best for the kids, but the next couple of months are going to be tough. Now that I know it's truly over, I just want it to be over in every way.
She has been playing a role, while dying inside and can no longer do it. She can never forgive me and can barely stand me.
I am going to go to work today, and tell the people I work with the truth. That one step may be the start of me living in my new reality.
I thank all of you for trying to help me save my marriage, and now I hope others can learn from my mistakes. I will still be here looking for support as I let my wife go.
I can do this. Bless all of you.
Even though I am convinced there is a less than 1% chance of success, considering where we are, is it time to go dark? Time for LRT? Or, is it really time to move on? Unless, things change again we will be in the same house for 2 months and then on the family vacation before she walks out. DB Pro's what's the right thing to do?
Indy,
I'm sorry to hear this. I can feel your pain in your posts.
Since you have nothing else to lose anyway, why not try the Robx/Gucci/McQueen approach?
Just a thought.
Puppy
I'm so sorry, Indy. The next couple months of "limbo" will be difficult. I know how tough it's been for me.
My W will be moved out by next weekend...and although I don't want her to go, I'll be relieved. The way we've been living hasn't been healthy.
Good luck, Indy. I wish I had some advice for you.
Even though I am convinced there is a less than 1% chance of success, considering where we are, is it time to go dark? Time for LRT? Or, is it really time to move on? Unless, things change again we will be in the same house for 2 months and then on the family vacation before she walks out. DB Pro's what's the right thing to do?
Still the same old indy, you haven't listened to alot of what we've posted, and you still sound scared, insecure, worried, grasping at any idea that might turn this thing around.
Do you really want direction?
Seems like we give it to you and then you post for 10-15 pages and then ask the same question, I sense this same type of repetitive nature may be what turned your wife off.
If you really want a laundry list of items that you will do to change everyone's mind that you're not some weak man who is losing his world, I'll give you stuff but if I start hearing "I can't do that, and I can't do this", I'm pretty much going to stop trying. There is no use in giving advice to someone who doesn't want to take it.
Item #1:
Cancel this family vacation.
You're doing it to make everyone like you, before you say no, yes you are, what else would be the reason for it? Your kids are in their late teens, they don't need a family vacation with you & your wife: most kids that age want a vacation from their parents and since they know that things between you & your wife are crap, you want to put them through a bunch of useless tension for what purpose? Your wife doesn't want to be with you anymore so you think you'll reward that behavior & attitude with a vacation: supplication at it's finest! I'm not enough on my own, I don't have enough value as is so I need to supplement who I am with gifts & vacations - maybe you'll like me more if I do these things and if you don't I'll be horribly devastated, why set yourself up for that type of misery?
These are things a weak & unattractive man would do.
You need to stop being weak & unattractive, you need to start taking control of your life regardless if your wife wants to leave you or not, in fact it's that attitude of not caring if she leaves or not which is probably going to make her stay more than if you do care - at least that's how it is right now.
It's not your insecurities, fears and doubts that take you down, it's you inability to recognize them and to become aware of them that hurts you the most. When you become aware of something it no longer has the ability to run your life. Take time to sit down and think about what your strengths, weaknesses, fears and doubts are.
A man knows who he is and what he wants. To know who you are you must have the courage to look WITHIN for the answers. Looking inward for the truth can be a scary thing to do. Most people avoid being honest with themselves for fear that they might find something they didn't want to.
Figure out what it is you want for yourself, NOT what someone else wants but what YOU desire - and I'm not talking about your wanting your wife. Don't you want to feel secure again? Don't you want to feel happy? Don't you want to feel confident & strong? You can't have any of these things if your self-value/self-worth is tied up into your wife and when she goes you'll be this broken worthless man. Her leaving you won't be the loss, not having those things I mentioned above in your life will be the real loss.
Indy I see some of you in the old me, and I really want to reach through this screen and shake the crap out of you and wake you up.
You get a handle on what it means to be a man and you won't have to worry about getting your wife back even after she leaves the home, once you turn your life around and she sees that the change is real, you will be the one deciding if she has enough value for you to accept back in your life - that's the scary thing about how this all works.
You get a handle on what it means to be a man and you won't have to worry about getting your wife back even after she leaves the home, once you turn your life around and she sees that the change is real, you will be the one deciding if she has enough value for you to accept back in your life - that's the scary thing about how this all works.
. Bingo, Amen and Hallelujah!
Puppy
RobX
I really do hear what you are saying. Really. And I have always appreciated you being so blunt with me. But, there are times when I just can't do the things I should. Yes, I am weak. But I can admit it and know I need to be stronger.
Like, E-train I am feeling some relief that soon this will all end. In some ways, I look forward to the day it really is over. Physical separation will change things - hopefully for the better.
I want this vacation for us. I know it may not be the right thing. But it's not entirley wrong either. Please believe me when I say, I am not doing it to make her or the kids like me. I know it isn't going to change the future. We have talked with our kids, and they understand everything and they still want that last "hurrah". We all know what will happen days later, but we all agree on going. Right or wrong thing to do, I will not change my mind on this.
I just told my close co-workers about the divorce and that was a step towards moving on. These are tough, tough days, but I will survive and one day be a better man for my tribulations.
RobX
I really do hear what you are saying. Really. And I have always appreciated you being so blunt with me. But, there are times when I just can't do the things I should. Yes, I am weak. But I can admit it and know I need to be stronger.
Like, E-train I am feeling some relief that soon this will all end. In some ways, I look forward to the day it really is over. Physical separation will change things - hopefully for the better.
I want this vacation for us. I know it may not be the right thing. But it's not entirley wrong either. Please believe me when I say, I am not doing it to make her or the kids like me. I know it isn't going to change the future. We have talked with our kids, and they understand everything and they still want that last "hurrah". We all know what will happen days later, but we all agree on going. Right or wrong thing to do, I will not change my mind on this.
I just told my close co-workers about the divorce and that was a step towards moving on. These are tough, tough days, but I will survive and one day be a better man for my tribulations.
Fine, do what makes you feel better, I tried indy, I really did, some people are just prone to seeking out failure because they're not really used to feeling what success is - they're afraid to do something different and you have to hit rock bottom until you really know what direction up is. IMHO, including your co-workers in your personal life probably wasn't the greatest thing to do either: work life & personal life, keep them separate.
Good luck.
RobX - I know you are frustrated with me. You advice is likely better to be given to someone who will actually use it properly. I have really tried, but it looks like I am one of the people who just can't db. It doesn't make me a failure, just a failure at this. Sure, it's a very important part of my life, but it's not my entire life.
As for telling some of my co-workers, since I am in Sales my performance can be affected by tough times. Also, I work at a compnay with approx 25 employees and word would get around eventually. I feel some people deserve to hear it directly from me.
If she's dead set on divorce, you take the kids somewhere. Why should she go?
I've had to be dragged, banging my head on the ground, steps, doors, along the way to the point where my W is. The M is over. Anything to commemorate it or celebrate it is just going to make everything worse.
The other thing is finances. Why waste money on a trip together that she really doesn't want.
A year ago we all went to Disney World. W hadn't dropped the bomb yet, but she was becoming more withdrawn and resentful every day as her depression deepened.
We'd saved for two years for the trip. My girls are 7 and 10. Disney World is a HUGE deal so I would never have canceled. But I felt deep down inside that this probably would be our last "family" trip. W and I had a huge fight the morning we left just because of the stress of having to spend five days together.
If you decide to go on the trip, you and the WAW need to clearly communicate on what your expectations are for the trip. Another example, at our 10 year anniversary, we went to Vegas alone, no kids.
It was her idea and a great one. I hoped it'd be a second honeymoon. She saw it as a chance to relax and get away from kid pressures.
We had S on the last night and it was fine, but I was really disappointed and I carried that around for three years until it came out in one of our fights.
She had no idea. To her, Vegas was a good memory and I ruined it.
So if you go, talk about what you want out of the trip and what she wants out of it.
two months is a hell of alot of time. hell you've posted 20 pages in the past 2 months and she has what, threathened to move out 3 times. more? personally, I think she is too sick to move out on her own. The doctors dont even know what is wrong with her. Or are you just sick of her after 21 years? you have mentioned 'I just want this over with" alot? What other issues does she have?
What I dont get is the recent series of events of, the anniversary response of go have sex with someone else >> going to a movie with some guy >> calling to check up on you >> getting stoned and screwing >> talking divorce. somethings fishy.
and what is with the taking advantage of your plastered wife. did she say 'no' and you continued?
If she's dead set on divorce, you take the kids somewhere. Why should she go?
I've had to be dragged, banging my head on the ground, steps, doors, along the way to the point where my W is. The M is over. Anything to commemorate it or celebrate it is just going to make everything worse.
The other thing is finances. Why waste money on a trip together that she really doesn't want.
A year ago we all went to Disney World. W hadn't dropped the bomb yet, but she was becoming more withdrawn and resentful every day as her depression deepened.
We'd saved for two years for the trip. My girls are 7 and 10. Disney World is a HUGE deal so I would never have canceled. But I felt deep down inside that this probably would be our last "family" trip. W and I had a huge fight the morning we left just because of the stress of having to spend five days together.
If you decide to go on the trip, you and the WAW need to clearly communicate on what your expectations are for the trip. Another example, at our 10 year anniversary, we went to Vegas alone, no kids.
It was her idea and a great one. I hoped it'd be a second honeymoon. She saw it as a chance to relax and get away from kid pressures.
We had S on the last night and it was fine, but I was really disappointed and I carried that around for three years until it came out in one of our fights.
She had no idea. To her, Vegas was a good memory and I ruined it.
So if you go, talk about what you want out of the trip and what she wants out of it.
I want the kids to have this vacation with their Mon and their Dad. I want that!
I'm not too concerned about the financial aspect of the trip. In the grand scheme of things it won't alter anyone's lifestyle.
We all do want to go and my wife and I have discussed the logistics of it. Since we both tend to drink when we are at an all inclusive, we won't share a room so nothing happens that shouldn't happen. We are just going to make the best out of a bad situation.
two months is a hell of alot of time. hell you've posted 20 pages in the past 2 months and she has what, threathened to move out 3 times. more? personally, I think she is too sick to move out on her own. The doctors dont even know what is wrong with her. Or are you just sick of her after 21 years? you have mentioned 'I just want this over with" alot? What other issues does she have?
What I dont get is the recent series of events of, the anniversary response of go have sex with someone else >> going to a movie with some guy >> calling to check up on you >> getting stoned and screwing >> talking divorce. somethings fishy.
and what is with the taking advantage of your plastered wife. did she say 'no' and you continued?
NO, I did not take advantage of her. She was a willing participant. The final straw was the time I did take advantage of her in a weak state. I would never do that again!
The whole thing is "fishy". It's a mess. That's why I sometimes say "I want it over". At least life without my wife will be simpler.
I think she believes she may physically feel better after the tension of being married is over.
You get a handle on what it means to be a man and you won't have to worry about getting your wife back even after she leaves the home, once you turn your life around and she sees that the change is real, you will be the one deciding if she has enough value for you to accept back in your life - that's the scary thing about how this all works.
. Bingo, Amen and Hallelujah!
Puppy
Whistles? The way to have value is to decide if other people have value? You can decide if you want them in your life, but deciding if another person has value? I'd have to say, who do you think you are?
Most of the problems on this board concern self-value and devaluing others, all the way back to childhood. Protect yourself Indy, you decide how to let other people treat you, but now how valuable other people are. Or that you don't want a relationship with someone because it's not best, not because they aren't valuable as a human being.
I think the mother of your children has some value.
RobX - I know you are frustrated with me. You advice is likely better to be given to someone who will actually use it properly. I have really tried,
You have "really tried" to feel sorry for yourself,
I'll be honest, reading your posts, where have you "really tried" to turn this around?
What did you really try?
Time to be honest with yourself, it's the only way you'll ever be honest with anyone else.
The whole thing is "fishy". It's a mess. That's why I sometimes say "I want it over". At least life without my wife will be simpler.
I think she believes she may physically feel better after the tension of being married is over.
The whole thing seems fishy because there are seriously dysfunctional things going on in your family. Alcohol abuse seems to be near the top of the list. Not saying that to offend, but geez, there is plenty of mention of who's drunk when. Even your vacation plans are about drinking.
No marriage advice is going to fix the problem when the problems are either caused or exacerbated by alcohol. I'd have to go back and check but wasn't your wife drunk and
suicidal at the beginning of this thread?
The whole thing seems fishy because there are seriously dysfunctional things going on in your family.
- wouldn't most of the situations on these forums be considered seriously dysfunctional? Some more than others but pretty much all of them, 256 different shades of the same grey, n'est pas?
I actually rarely drink and have no issues there at all.
There is no doubt that my wife has an alochol problem. That's another thing she thinks will get better after she moves out. She drinks to subdue the emotional pain. But...she also drinks due to the physical pain she is in due to severe arthritis. That won't go away. Stress does make it worse, but it will still be there.
Yes, she was drunk and "acting" suicidal early in this thread. This is weird - the more I read and type, the more I reliaze there are some things about my wife I will be thrilled to be away from. Wow...a silver lining.
Indy36
Stop.
If your going to step away from this marriage and your children. Do it with honour and respect. They will be in your life for all your days. You have a woman who is hurting and will need your support through out her life. As a husband or as a friend. Right now you cannot see that.
You have a daughter and son who need a father.
Stop.
Your hurting, your wife is hurting and your children are hurting.
You can continue to add to this. Or you can take some actions.
Stop adding to the hurt.
That is an action. Try it for one hour. No spiteful thoughts. No negative thoughts. One Hour.
Then find the thickest rubberband you have in the house. Every time you think negative thoughts pull that puppy as far as possible and let it go.
You will hurt yourself instead.
Continue to do this.
And think each time.
STOP. I WILL STOP. I WILL STOP. I WILL STOP.
ONCE YOU HAVE DONE THAT.
STOP.
Your 40 years old. Either you going to learn something here or you are going to have a ton of bitterness in your life. That is your choice. You have strangers here who are willing to take time out of their lifes to give you some support. BUT you do not listen. Nor do you understand to make a choice.
Cutterbug - thanks. I know I need to stop what I have been doing - it's only pushing my wife out the door faster. My major backpedalling pushed the move out date up 6 months.
I am trying to find something in me, to allow me to worthy of honor and respect. I am thinking I need professional help to do so. I really will try the rubber band idea.
If I am totally honest with myself, I still want to save this marriage. But, at the same time I think it's impossible and it's best for me to put my efforts into ending it well. I have never felt so "wishy-washy" and lost before. I know I need to man up and change that and stop feeling sorry for myself.
Knowing and doing are 2 different things!
The first thing you need to learn. Its a parallel path. You , everthing else.
But right now just stop. shut down.
The first thing you need to learn. Its a parallel path. You , everthing else.
But right now just stop. shut down.
I took a break from here for a little while. The support is great, but it can become all consuming and only make me focus more on my troubles.
What do you mean by "just stop. shut down"?
I know I need to stop what I have been doing - it's only pushing my wife out the door faster. My major backpedalling pushed the move out date up 6 months.
I am trying to find something in me, to allow me to worthy of honor and respect. I am thinking I need professional help to do so. I really will try the rubber band idea.
So stop. Take a break. Take a weekend off. Go away for 2 days. Ontario is rather nice this time of year. Or go on a road trip with a buddy and hit a hockey game in another city. AHL , OHL , NHL does not matter. CFL even...
Give your kids and wife some time off from you. And give yourself some time off.
2 days is not going to change anything. But it will allow to recharge.
Then when you come back. Go get this help that you mention. You really need to get some help. Go back to square one. If your going to detach and move on. Do it with love. Reread your entire thread and the advice that was given. And your actions and results.
But I truely believe you need to detach from yourself for awhile. Your just killing yourself right now with your confusion. So stop doing that. Recharge.
I really can't afford to take a weekend off. Really. And I don't have a friend that I could actually go away with for a few days. That's one of my problems. I was happy having my wife and kids and very few others in my life. Now, I don't have a true friend to turn to. I have to deal with most of this on my own.
I called a counselor today and am waiting for a call back. Hopefully I can see someone in 2 days. I have done some financial planning today, and that gives me some peace. We certainly won't have the lifestyles we are used to, but it's good to know that from that perspective things may not be terrible.
My wife won't be home tonight, so she will get a break from me and I will be sure to be positive with the kids.
Re-reading this thread is a good idea. I would like to read my thread from 4 years ago, but can't seem to do so. I found it and clicked on it, but it sends me back to the main forums page. All I have been able to read is the announcement that our divorce was busted - and I'm not sure that's a good thing for me to read right now.
I am going to go home - see my kids - watch some hockey - and likely take a sleeping pill to get a good night's sleep. Tomorrow is another day.
Well then just take a day off.
I am in Ontario as well. So under the same rules as you with the whole seperation and divorce laws.
and what is with the taking advantage of your plastered wife. did she say 'no' and you continued?
NO, I did not take advantage of her. She was a willing participant. The final straw was the time I did take advantage of her in a weak state. I would never do that again!
i quess i am confused by this, you "did not take advantage of her" but you "did take advantage of her in a weak state?"
What is it? I am assuming she still holds this against you.
Well then just take a day off.
I am in Ontario as well. So under the same rules as you with the whole seperation and divorce laws.
I think taking a day off would not help me. At least when I am at work my mind is somewhat occupied. All I think of otherwise, it what my life will be like in 2 months. I try to tell myself that the loving thing to do is give up my happiness, so my wife can have hers. That looks great typed in a forum, but what about actually living a life you don't want for 40 years or more??
I try to tell myself that the loving thing to do is give up my happiness, so my wife can have hers. That looks great typed in a forum . . .
Um, no, it doesn't actually.
Martyrdom is never attractive. I know, cuz I've done it too.
Puppy
and what is with the taking advantage of your plastered wife. did she say 'no' and you continued?
NO, I did not take advantage of her. She was a willing participant. The final straw was the time I did take advantage of her in a weak state. I would never do that again!
i quess i am confused by this, you "did not take advantage of her" but you "did
take advantage of her in a weak state?"
What is it? I am assuming she still holds this against you.
I think we are confusing 2 different occurences.
Yes, months ago there was a terrible incident that I explained earlier. And yes, that was the final act that made my wife decide to leave. She always felt that I "used" her and didn't respect her rights as a person. She is right.
But..I was referring to the time about a week ago, when we had sex while under the influence of marijuana. I certainly instigated it, but she did become an active participant. Still...this made her more angry when she could think clearly, the next day. She feels I waited until she was weak and used that moment to fill my needs.
I know it's my fault that our marriage is over. We had problems like anyone else, but all of those could have been dealt with. My wife is leaving because of my actions. The guilt is really tough to live with. It's also tough now that I clearly see what kind of person I was/am.
My only hope is that professional help with start me on the road to being a better man.
I try to tell myself that the loving thing to do is give up my happiness, so my wife can have hers. That looks great typed in a forum . . .
Um, no, it doesn't actually.
Martyrdom is never attractive. I know, cuz I've done it too.
Puppy
Wow Puppy. I really must not be thinking clearly. I suppose I am being a martyr - still wallowing in self pity - still worried only about me. I have said this before here, but I have never been so lost before. I appreciate all of you being so straight forward with me. It seems to be the only way I get even part of the message.
Puppy...Coach...Robx...Steve McQueen: Looking for your usual honest thoughts about the following. This is going to be a long one, but I just finally came to the realization that this marriage is over and I need to work with reality.
I spoke with wife this morning and we discussed her moving out again. She is looking at apartments today and plans on "slowly moving out" between now and end of the year. She thinks it will make it easier on everyone. I agree that it will make it easier on the kids, but maybe worse for me. I suppose either way, the end result is the same.
I have already agreed to a financial plan that will allow her to pay rent while I keep up all other bills and stay in the house with the kids. It will be tough for a while to live in our family home and sleep alone in our bed, but it's better than living in some apartment. I would like to stay until the summer of 2011 and then sell the house - pay off debts and split what is left. There won't be much, but enough for me to make a downpayment on a smaller house and still live a reasonable lifestyle, since I make good money at what I do.
We have no liquid cash, but good equity in our home and access to a line of credit that we owe a lot of money on, but still has plenty of room. I have done the math and allowed for paying that off when the house sells - and my wife and I can both still walk away with some decent money.
Wife is asking to buy furniture for her apartment on line of credit. I know dbing says you don't help your spouse leave. But...at this point I am thinking it's time to not worry about dbing, but making things as comfortable as possible. For the sake of a few thousand dollars, do I start any kind of money talks? I don't want to be a doormat, but also don't want to add fighting over money etc to this, when there has been none of it so far.
It's important to note that my wife is still being caring and concerned for me, and is being very realistic about financial stuff. Neither of us will drag things through courts or anything.
I will of course, make sure we have proper separation agreement in place - then be separated for legally required one year - then proceed with as simple divorce as possible.
I think I will always have the hope that my wife might come back to me, if I can really change myself. But...yes, I know I need to do it for me. I am aware that I have deep rooted problems that I never knew until recently. So..somewhere in my plan of not selling the house etc right now,is that it leaves the possibility of reunion there. But that is NOT my main goal. And over the next year or so, I may not even want that anymore.
Something hit me hard this morning, and I know I need to change everything. I need to accept the situation and start getting better and move on.
So..bottom line...at this point is it best to make her moving out easy, then focus on looking after myself and kids, focus on developing a life without my wife and once and for all, accept my future?
Am I being naive in thinking that we really can make this divorce a simple one in regards to finances if I don't rock the boat?
I rambled on here, but I hope you understand what I am asking. I also hope I have reached a turning point and can work from here. My thoughts and emotions are all over the place, so maybe I hope I don't slide back into thinking differently.
Am I doing the right thing by making her move out easy and just getting on with MY life?
You should neither MAKE her move out, nor HELP her move out. She is an adult, and if she wants to run away from her marriage and her family, she can do that and you can't control her, but nor should you help enable it by letting her run up add'l debt FOR YOUR FAMILY (yes, the LOC is a family debt) so she can enjoy her runaway lifestyle.
So, absolutely NOT.
It's important to note that my wife is still being caring and concerned for me, and is being very realistic about financial stuff. Neither of us will drag things through courts or anything.
I'm sorry to have to say this Indy, but I'm afraid she's only being that way to the extent that she's getting everything she wants from you right now. If you doubt me, say "no" to the line-of-credit thing above, do it nicely and as pleasantly as possible ("I understand you want your space right now, but that's your decision, not mine. I have to look out for the family, and I don't think it's a good idea for you to run up additional family debt to finance a second residence for you. You'll have to pay for that yourself.") . . .
. . . and then see how "nice" she continues to be, and let us know.
Puppy
P.S.
If you cave into her on this (and I suspect you will), then at a MIMIMUM those funds (the add'l debt put onto your line-of-credit) should come out of HER half of the proceeds when you sell your house.
Essentially, once a spouse is either wayward or runs away, the LBS needs to draw a financial line in the sand, and separate the finances. This is her fantasy, and her journey, and you shouldn't have to pay for it, past behavior notwithstanding. If you are STILL being abusive to her in any way, or if her presence in your home is a danger to herself, then my opinion would obviously be completely different.
The poop just hit the fan.
I called wife and asked how much she thought she needed for first and last months rent and furniture. She said $15,000!!!!
I said no way. We aren't going that in debt. Our lifestyles are going to change. We need to live the way we can afford.
It was great to stand up for myself, but now things just changed. You are right Puppy. She is nice as long as I give her what she wants.
I think I just started down a road, I didn't want.
I will of course, make sure we have proper separation agreement in place - then be separated for legally required one year - then proceed with as simple divorce as possible.
so you'll be essentially paying her alimony for one additional year.
Am I being naive in thinking that we really can make this divorce a simple one in regards to finances if I don't rock the boat?
depends on how badly she wants out. I have a SIL who walked away from a half a teacher's pension and a paid off home to live with another woman in 2 room apartment. they were in love. your wife might feel entitled to everything and find herself an excellent litigator and take you for a ride.
But immediately,
You seem confused and overwhelmed with all of this right now. Why dont you take a break from thinking about all of this for a short while, see a counselor,
consult an attorney, go out and try to enjoy life abit, your wife did give you a pass on getting "it" elsewhere (why dont you find out if she was bluffing, she got a pa pa pa poker face?)
and
follow puppies advice, Say NO. Let her do all the work; dont bring it up nor talk about it till you get your bearing straight. as puppy said
("I understand you want your space right now, but that's your decision, not mine. I have to look out for the family, and I don't think it's a good idea for you to run up additional family debt to finance a second residence for you. You'll have to pay for that yourself.") . . .
. . . and then see how "nice" she continues to be, and let us know.
I called wife and asked how much she thought she needed for first and last months rent and furniture. She said $15,000!!!!
man stop talking to a woman who wants to divorce you about money.
I have to discuss finances to some extent, since she is signing for an apartment in the next couple of days.
Because I violated her and that caused her to leave, I feel that in some ways I should be good to her at this point. She has been an amazing wife and put up with a lot over the years. At least part of me says I should be a caring, good guy at this time.
Purely from a legal point of view, I need to keep in mind that getting lawyers deeply involved right away could cost me tons. And...I also have to be aware that if I really make her angry or hurt her more, she could destroy me. She could have me criminally charged for the night I violated her. That is a horrible reality, but I need to accept just how awful a thing I did.
But at this point, it's not just about protecting myself, it's about doing the right thing for a woman I abused and at the same time finding a way to keep my own interests in mind.
I appreciate everything you folks tell me, but if you really think about my behaviour, I put myself where I am and need to realize I am lucky that my wife is not making things much worse.
I have to discuss finances to some extent, since she is signing for an apartment in the next couple of days.
Because I violated her and that caused her to leave, I feel that in some ways I should be good to her at this point. She has been an amazing wife and put up with a lot over the years. At least part of me says I should be a caring, good guy at this time.
Purely from a legal point of view, I need to keep in mind that getting lawyers deeply involved right away could cost me tons. And...I also have to be aware that if I really make her angry or hurt her more, she could destroy me. She could have me criminally charged for the night I violated her. That is a horrible reality, but I need to accept just how awful a thing I did.
But at this point, it's not just about protecting myself, it's about doing the right thing for a woman I abused and at the same time finding a way to keep my own interests in mind.
I appreciate everything you folks tell me, but if you really think about my behaviour, I put myself where I am and need to realize I am lucky that my wife is not making things much worse.
Has she forgiven you?
Have you forgiven yourself?
Have you made changes and created awareness not to repeat your mistakes?
Sounds like you still feel guilty and it is keeping you from thinking clearly. Guilt is when you feel bad about something you have done, shame is when you think something is wrong with you as a person. We all make mistakes and have done things which we are remorseful for, the key is how do you handle things the next time a similiar situation arises.
Don't be so quick to write a blank check.
Cheers
I agree with the effort. if she wants it let her earn it. I would lock down that line of credit right now today. It was the first thing I did. No more debt on anything you both jointly own. Cancel or place a hold on joint credit cards. Also get a new bank account to pay the morgage and bills out of that only you control. Then you have the choices of demanding her to pay half of the bills towards the house and half the mortgage and child support as well. Those are choices that you should seek some additional advice on. I know I will not talk finances with my was while she is having an affair. I also have her paying half the mortgage and half the common bills while I am still in the house. I also told her that she had 30 days to get her own car insurance and benifits. Which I removed after 30 days. We locked our joint accounts and kept one common accout to place money into to cover bills and mortgage which I control. But she has kept up her end of the bargin so far. The stick I have to swing there is exposure to work. Which she knows. So while I heal I am going to sit in my home and decide if I want to keep it or sell it. But she is not getting any of our marriages finaces while there is another man. Plus she needs to do the leg work to set up the rsrp transfers etc... I am not putting one stich of effort into it. She wants it she works for it.
Because I violated her and that caused her to leave, I feel that in some ways I should be good to her at this point. She has been an amazing wife and put up with a lot over the years. At least part of me says I should be a caring, good guy at this time.
Purely from a legal point of view, I need to keep in mind that getting lawyers deeply involved right away could cost me tons. And...I also have to be aware that if I really make her angry or hurt her more, she could destroy me. She could have me criminally charged for the night I violated her. That is a horrible reality, but I need to accept just how awful a thing I did.
But at this point, it's not just about protecting myself, it's about doing the right thing for a woman I abused and at the same time finding a way to keep my own interests in mind.
I appreciate everything you folks tell me, but if you really think about my behaviour, I put myself where I am and need to realize I am lucky that my wife is not making things much worse.
Then I'm afraid there's not much we can do to help you, Indy. You're letting your past sin -- since forgiven -- stand in the way of doing what's best for your family, and it's a HUGE MISTAKE.
But it's yours to make.
Puppy
GOOD FOR YOU, Cutterbug. I respect your strong stand, and looking out for your family's best interests!
Puppy
My sin has not been forgiven. Not by my wife or by me.
I would never make the same mistake again, but that's moot now.
I feel guilt and shame. I may continue to make more mistakes, but that seems to be what I do. At least, future ones may be out of best interests.
My sin has not been forgiven. Not by my wife or by me.
I would never make the same mistake again, but that's moot now.
I feel guilt and shame. I may continue to make more mistakes, but that seems to be what I do. At least, future ones may be out of best interests.
I know this is hard. You can't give away won't you don't have. If you don't love yourself you don't have any love to give away to someone else.
You need to learn to forgive. It's loving, real and part of being a human. You need to talk to a IC or priest/preacher to heal. You are not the only person who has ever been thru a experience like yours, there is a better future if you do the work.
Cheers
Coach
Indy I would work on forgiving that mistake. Forgive your self and learn from it. Remember forgiveness means taking responsibiltiy for your actions. And work to never allow it to happen again. Which would mean no more doing that stuff so you cannot get into a postition that it can happen. This would be an action. Actions speak louder than words. This would be a good 180. Clean up your system. And stay away from anything that hinders your judgement. Perhaps one day your wife will forgive you as well. Just not now. And by letting her go this way you may never get the chance at forgiveness. It cannot be bought. It must be earned. And to earn forgiveness requires hard work. Hard work by both of you. But only you can forgive yourself for your past actions. One day you may need to communicate this to your wife. It may be the openning for her to forgive you as well. It is called healing. Lead by example.
So it is not moot now. As it is defining your re-actions. Take ownership and have it become an action.
My sin has not been forgiven. Not by my wife or by me.
I would never make the same mistake again, but that's moot now.
I feel guilt and shame. I may continue to make more mistakes, but that seems to be what I do. At least, future ones may be out of best interests.
I know this is hard. You can't give away won't you don't have. If you don't love yourself you don't have any love to give away to someone else.
You need to learn to forgive. It's loving, real and part of being a human. You need to talk to a IC or priest/preacher to heal. You are not the only person who has ever been thru a experience like yours, there is a better future if you do the work.
Cheers
Coach
I am trying to see a counselor tomorrow and attempting to join a support group.
It's mandatory.
Indy I would work on forgiving that mistake. Forgive your self and learn from it. Remember forgiveness means taking responsibiltiy for your actions. And work to never allow it to happen again. Which would mean no more doing that stuff so you cannot get into a postition that it can happen. This would be an action. Actions speak louder than words. This would be a good 180. Clean up your system. And stay away from anything that hinders your judgement. Perhaps one day your wife will forgive you as well. Just not now. And by letting her go this way you may never get the chance at forgiveness. It cannot be bought. It must be earned. And to earn forgiveness requires hard work. Hard work by both of you. But only you can forgive yourself for your past actions. One day you may need to communicate this to your wife. It may be the openning for her to forgive you as well. It is called healing. Lead by example.
So it is not moot now. As it is defining your re-actions. Take ownership and have it become an action.
All I can say is Thank You.
Wife and I had a calm conversation last night. We slept in same bed - no big deal.
She is really very physically ill. Sad to see.
I know it goes against the advice of everyone here, but I have decided to give in somewhat on her request for financial aid in moving out. It won't be $15,000, and I am not just going to write a check. I will only do this for her if she follows some rules about how the money is put out. I won't go into the details, but I have come up with something more than fair to her, that I can accept. Everything will be in writing, with receipts and full disclosure.
I have my reasons for doing it this way, and while it may not be the smartest thing, it's the right thing for me at this time. It's only money, and I want to move on to more important things.
I am going to see a counselor, attempting to join a support group at a local church and also found an on-line group as well.
The bottom line is that I still deeply care for my wife, and am very concerned about her just making it through. I want my kids to have their mother and father as healthy people, and I'm going to do what it takes for that to happen.
I hope those of you who know your stuff (Coach, Puppy, RobX etc) won't give up on me. I will still heed your advice, but on this one issue, have chosen to do what works for me at this time.
I hope you understand and will still be there for me.
Indy,
I may strongly DISAGREE, but I will never GIVE UP on you. This is your family, and we're here to help support you with whatever you decide.
Puppy
is she wanting you "to be there for her" in her illness or is she requesting you respect her space and leave her alone?
Thanks Puppy. I really put a lot of calm, rational thought into the decision. Is is what feels right for me right now. I may be sorry later, but learning to live with my mistakes is part of this process.
I have been an emotional wreck for the last 2 months (as my posts make clear!) and I am ready to get past the point of feeling ill every day. I can't honestly say I will ever stop hoping for my wife to come back until the day it is 100% impossible, but I have to start living for me and still keep that hope somewhere in my heart.
During our talk last night, she alluded to the fact that her moving out isn't the absolute end in her mind. I think that right now, she simply needs to get away from the anger and bad memories and get healthier physically.
It's time to really give her space and work on me and then let her decide what is right for her. I don't want our old marriage anymore than she does. So, either way, we are moving towards something better.
is she wanting you "to be there for her" in her illness or is she requesting you respect her space and leave her alone?
Tough thing to answer Steve. Last night when I was being calm and we spoke she opened up to me about how bad she feels. She said "I feel like I am dying". It may all be stress related - or at least she feels it may be. Getting out of this toxic envioronment will help her feel better. Again, at least she thinks so.
She really just wants me to give her space and respect her boundaries. I forced her into leaving by not respecting her requests for that. If I had kept my hands off her, she would feel safe and would likely not feel the need to be away from me.
So..I suppose she would like me to be there for her, but at the same time let her feel safe and comfortable. The bottom line is that I didn't db properly when this started again 2 months ago. I am still doing some things against the db philosophy (the money thing), but at least now, they are with good intentions and not because I am putting my needs ahead of hers.
She wants me to care for her as a person and not expect things in return. I think I can do that.
She really just wants me to give her space and respect her boundaries. I forced her into leaving by not respecting her requests for that. If I had kept my hands off her, she would feel safe and would likely not feel the need to be away from me.
You have no way of knowing that, Indy. This forum (and others like it, all over the internet) are FILLED with stories of walkaways, and some of their spouses did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG. She may have been wayward anyway, you don't know.
All you can do is "The Right Thing," and that is to stop smothering her, stop expecting from her, and GIVE HER SPACE, which you're now doing.
And work on YOU.
Puppy
Puppy - In our case, I did do something wrong. Hell, it was legally and morally wrong. And that one night I admitted here, was only the most extreme example.
My wife has clearly stated that horrible night was the last straw. But other things like it (touching her while she slept etc) made her feel used and disrespected. So, yes, she was wayward before, but really mostly due to the same issues. Even in the last 2 months, when she would give a little, I would expect more and try to take it. Yes, we had other issues, but they could have been dealt with.
It may be too late for me to save our marriage by finally giving her what she needs. But I figure there is never truly a wrong time to do the right thing.
Hi Indy how are you doing today ? Did you have a better day than yesterday ?
I'm ok today Cutter. Thanks for checking in.
I saw a counsellor for the first time in my life last night. Good guy who is easy to talk to. He basically just let me rattle on for the hour,and I am seeing him next week. I also found a Divoce Support group at a local church and am going to go for the first time on Monday. I met the leader and he gave me a copy of the Love Dare.
When I got home from counselor, my wife and I had another nice calm conversation. She was scared to tell me that she has found and signed for an apartment. She gets it December 1st and will slowly move in over the month and then permanently after our XMAS vacation with kids.
She was open and honest with me and told me just how much doing this is hurting her. She feels like she is abondoning our kids, even though they are actually happy for her and proud of her. She will still be around for them. Unless, her new found freedom really changes her.
I don't want to get my hopes up, but last night she said a few things that made it sound like this may not be a 100% final end to our marriage. I suppose I will know after January 1st and the months following.
For the next year (length of my wife's lease) I am going to focus on me, deepening my relationship with my kids, getting house ready for sale, and work. Since I am in sales my income is affected greatly by my efforts - and this coming year will be tougher financially.
Wife and I slept in same bed again - as we plan to do until she is gone and even had a little cuddle. I think now that she sees her safety and comfort on the horizon, she is relaxing in some ways.
I admitted to the counselor, my wife and myself that I still want her back in a year (or sooner - or later), but that I also intend to make real changes for me and my future and for my kids.
I'm thinking from now on I am going to live true honesty and accept wherever that leads me.
Well I hope you do Indy. Concentrate on yourself and your kids. Your wife can do the same. Let her do what she is going to do. Its her choice. She knows your thoughts as do your kids. Your 40 years young. Time to make some new friends via circles. Between now and Jan 1st. No booze or other stuff. You got to be on your game. As the next month is going to be as tough as you make it. When in doubt go for a walk... No R talk. Space is your friend. Let her work on her new life. She needs to put the effort in to move. Do not help in any part of it. None of it. GAL. Lovingly detach. If she asks for help be busy doing stuff on the house or work. Smile and say your busy but may be able to help later or pick up some boxes on the way home from work.... I bought tote boxes and rubbermaid boxes I would go through a room and remove her stuff in that and garbage bags. Just left mystuff or stuff I claimed. I also decluttered. I now have one room in the house called the wayward room where there is just tote boxes and garabage bags of wayward stuff. And there is two rooms left to declutter and I am done. Wow do I sound harsh there...
I still cannot believe your doing the trip. The whole family is up for this??? I know I could not do that.
Yes, the whole family is up for the trip. I even feel better about it now. Yeseterday I felt rather calm and normal. That was nice for a change. I woke up feeling a little worse today, but not bad.
Other than the financial aspect, I am not going to help wife move. I don't think she even wants me to. She says she doesn't even want me to know where her apartment is, and that's fine with me. At this point, she says she still plans on being in the house quite often. She even said she will still do the Sunday cleaning and make Sunday dinners. I know that by allowing that I will be letting her have the best of both worlds and that goes against db philosophy. But I think dbing is only one philosophy and is not 100% right for all situations. In dbing, we try to make it tough for them to live their "fantasy". I have decided that if my wife chooses that fantasy life, then so be it. If on the other hand, she chooses to come back, then I know she came back only because our "second marriage" will truly be a better option than anything else. I only want to try a second time, if it's 100% genuine and real.
I know lots of you will disagree with that, but it is right for me.
Now a little update...
When I came home from work last night, wife and I watched a movie together in bed. Again, much like sleeping in the same bed it was no big deal.
I have started reading the Love Dare. It gives you things to do over a 41 day period to transfer your marriage. Again, it goes agianst dbing in some ways, but I think there is a way to combine both concepts. The following is what I would like feedback on.
Since wife and I will be "together" for the next month and somewhat in December, what if I temper the approach in Love Dare, while still GAL and not beeing needing or pursuing etc. It might just give my wife something to miss when she leaves. Worst case, it will make things easier between us later. I have no intention of ever hating her or anything like that.
Then...after she moves out, I put dbing principles into place more and go almost dark. Make a point of not being available to her, around the house when she's here to see kids, not be available when she calls etc. I even intend to purposely leave books like "Uncoupling" where she can see them when at the house.
While my ultimate goal is to have her return for the right reasons and start a new marriage based on new principles, I will genuinely start the new year with my 4 goals in mind: work on me, develop deeper relationship with my kids, prepare house for eventual sale, and do better at work to earn more money next year when it's needed. But...if I happen to leave hints out to show that I am doing that, then let's see how that affects my wife.
Whew...that was a long one. I hope it all makes sense. I have it right in my mind, but would still like to hear what others think.
In dbing, we try to make it tough for them to live their "fantasy".
Survey says......
[X]aeeinngghhh I will genuinely start the new year with my 4 goals in mind: work on me
Why wait till the new year?
The DBing principles are not unique ideas to MWD. Love Dare has a lot of pursuing in it not real effective in dealing with a WAS. Make yourself irressitable to your wife and let her come to you. Your list of goals is a great start.
Cheers
I should clarify: I am working on those 4 things right NOW. But meant, in the new year,in my new life they will be the only things - while between now and then I may also work on the love dare things - but tempered and only in non pursuing ways. For example the first 2 things are: don't say anything negative, and do soemthing nice. Those are simply good things to do in any relationship (even with my kids) and are not pursuing. And those kinds of things are irresistable to anyone.
In dbing, we try to make it tough for them to live their "fantasy".
Survey says......
[X]aeeinngghhh I will genuinely start the new year with my 4 goals in mind: work on me
Why wait till the new year?
The DBing principles are not unique ideas to MWD. Love Dare has a lot of pursuing in it not real effective in dealing with a WAS. Make yourself irressitable to your wife and let her come to you. Your list of goals is a great start.
Cheers
I agree
I forgot to ask. What does MWD stand for? As in Coach's comment "Dbing principles are not unique to MWD".
And again, let me clairfy, I am only going to use the ideas in Love Dare and alter them to fit our situation. If one seems needy or will feel like pursuing, I will simply skip that one, or alter it greatly.
I forgot to ask. What does MWD stand for? As in Coach's comment "Dbing principles are not unique to MWD".
Michele Weiner-Davis, our gracious host.
And again, let me clairfy, I am only going to use the ideas in Love Dare and alter them to fit our situation. If one seems needy or will feel like pursuing, I will simply skip that one, or alter it greatly.
The Love Dare might be a good tool when you are piecing your relationship back together. That's what I'm saving my copy for.
Oh..Duh for me on the MWD thing.
Very positive comment: "when you are piecing...." not "if".
I may never get that chance, so for now I will stay with my plan of learning from it and applying some of the ideas within the context of our current situation and then should I ever be granted the chance, I can do them even better the second time around at full force.
Oh..Duh for me on the MWD thing.
Very positive comment: "when you are piecing...." not "if".
Heh, I didn't even think of it that way, but yeah, it is.
I think I'm on the verge of that with my wife; she seems to be more comfortable around me and talks about plans in the future (holidays and stuff). She was worried about her paycheck being so small due to all of the time she missed due to her surgery and how we would cover our expenses for the next couple of weeks.
The big roadblock is the physical intimacy issue. When she's ready to deal with that, I will be there.
I may never get that chance, so for now I will stay with my plan of learning from it and applying some of the ideas within the context of our current situation and then should I ever be granted the chance, I can do them even better the second time around at full force.
This is true. When my wife told me that she didn't want to be in this situation again, a few years down the road, I told her that I had no intention of being in this situation again, with anyone.
If -- when -- she is ready to trust me again, I will be able to show her that. Until then, I have to keep on keepin' on...
Trent - Since you and I have the ill spouse in common, we should likely keep track of each other.
Although..I am further down the road than you and not in a good way. My waw is actually going to walk Dec 1st - well limp for that month and then walk (maybe even run) in January.
Although..I am further down the road than you and not in a good way. My waw is actually going to walk Dec 1st - well limp for that month and then walk (maybe even run) in January.
My wife is recovering nicely from surgery, and things seem to be at an impasse right now.
She's not talking about leaving per se, but there are definitely things we need to do (like joint MC!) if we're going to be able to rebuild this. The last time we had a R talk, she acknowledged this but wasn't sure when she'd be ready for MC.
She's still on the mend for another week or so, so I have plenty of time to work on myself while I wait...
Other than the financial aspect, I am not going to help wife move. I don't think she even wants me to. She says she doesn't even want me to know where her apartment is, and that's fine with me. At this point, she says she still plans on being in the house quite often. She even said she will still do the Sunday cleaning and make Sunday dinners. I know that by allowing that I will be letting her have the best of both worlds and that goes against db philosophy. But I think dbing is only one philosophy and is not 100% right for all situations. In dbing, we try to make it tough for them to live their "fantasy". I have decided that if my wife chooses that fantasy life, then so be it. If on the other hand, she chooses to come back, then I know she came back only because our "second marriage" will truly be a better option than anything else. I only want to try a second time, if it's 100% genuine and real.
Indy,
On the one hand, you appear to be taking a passive, almost fatalistic approach ("if my wife chooses" . . . "so be it" . . . ).
And you say you don't want to try anything if it's not "genuine and real," as a rationale for why you seem to be rejecting most (not all) of the DB playbook and most all of the advice you've received here.
And that's fine.
But then you advocate for "The Love Dare," and its principles (which are very "pursuing" and anti-DB).
It seems to me that you DO believe in trying to do something actively to save your marriage, but only if it fits your more passive, eager-to-please nature.
That's not a criticism -- just an observation. But I just don't understand why you keep asking everyone for advice, when you seem pretty hell-bent on following your own instincts, which -- let's be fair -- kinda helped play a role in getting you into this mess in the first place??
Puppy
Puppy - You are correct that my instincts (or my lack of level headedness) got me into this mess. And I did not db properly this time. I know that now.
I don't mean to take a fatalistic approach - more of a realistic approach. I simply don't want to set myself up for disappointment down the road. And..I need to keep reminding myself that the things I do can't be done just to win her back. I need that. That's the way I am.
I'm not sure I do advocate the Love Dare. I have only read the first 2 "days". Maybe after that I will drop it if it is pursuing. I don't know at this point what is in the whole book. I am thinking that maybe I can combine two schools of thought. That's all. It appears that those of you who have read it, feel otherwise - and that's why I asked. So I will heed the advice. Maybe read some more of it anyway, but not do the dares. Maybe drop it entirely.
Your point about my passive, eager to please nature is valid. That I will have to keep in mind.
I'm just trying to make sure that over the next 2 months, I make sure I give wife something to miss - and then after she has moved out, moved to a different phase of dbing. As I asked (or tried to) should I go virtually dark after the move out? I obviously have not got this right this time around, so I will listen.
Other than the financial aspect, I am not going to help wife move. I don't think she even wants me to. She says she doesn't even want me to know where her apartment is, and that's fine with me. At this point, she says she still plans on being in the house quite often. She even said she will still do the Sunday cleaning and make Sunday dinners. I know that by allowing that I will be letting her have the best of both worlds and that goes against db philosophy. But I think dbing is only one philosophy and is not 100% right for all situations. In dbing, we try to make it tough for them to live their "fantasy". I have decided that if my wife chooses that fantasy life, then so be it. If on the other hand, she chooses to come back, then I know she came back only because our "second marriage" will truly be a better option than anything else. I only want to try a second time, if it's 100% genuine and real.
Indy,
On the one hand, you appear to be taking a passive, almost fatalistic approach ("if my wife chooses" . . . "so be it" . . . ).
And you say you don't want to try anything if it's not "genuine and real," as a rationale for why you seem to be rejecting most (not all) of the DB playbook and most all of the advice you've received here.
And that's fine.
But then you advocate for "The Love Dare," and its principles (which are very "pursuing" and anti-DB).
It seems to me that you DO believe in trying to do something actively to save your marriage, but only if it fits your more passive, eager-to-please nature.
That's not a criticism -- just an observation. But I just don't understand why you keep asking everyone for advice, when you seem pretty hell-bent on following your own instincts, which -- let's be fair -- kinda helped play a role in getting you into this mess in the first place??
Puppy
hell yeah!!!
Puppy - You are correct that my instincts (or my lack of level headedness) got me into this mess. And I did not db properly this time. I know that now.
I don't mean to take a fatalistic approach - more of a realistic approach. I simply don't want to set myself up for disappointment down the road. And..I need to keep reminding myself that the things I do can't be done just to win her back. I need that. That's the way I am.
I'm not sure I do advocate the Love Dare. I have only read the first 2 "days". Maybe after that I will drop it if it is pursuing. I don't know at this point what is in the whole book. I am thinking that maybe I can combine two schools of thought. That's all. It appears that those of you who have read it, feel otherwise - and that's why I asked. So I will heed the advice. Maybe read some more of it anyway, but not do the dares. Maybe drop it entirely.
Your point about my passive, eager to please nature is valid. That I will have to keep in mind.
I'm just trying to make sure that over the next 2 months, I make sure I give wife something to miss - and then after she has moved out, moved to a different phase of dbing. As I asked (or tried to) should I go virtually dark after the move out? I obviously have not got this right this time around, so I will listen.
How can she miss you at all?
You're always there!
You never got a life, I think you mentioned XBOX as getting a life, so you were home "getting a life" - that's not how it works. Getting a life means getting out of the house, getting involved in something different, something that makes you do different things, change thought patterns, change behaviors, etc.
You have never given her the gift of missing you.
From my own obvervation indy,
you try a little of this, a little of that,
some of this, some of that, waited a few days, didn't work, back to square one, I'll be me again, repeat all the bad behavior and then ask myself why nothing is working.
That sounds pretty accurate to me.
You want a quick fix to a problem that took years in the making, you said it yourself, you've been here before a few years back.
No quick fixes.
Quick fixes are crap.
Real fixes require real effort,
a change in your mindset,
clarity,
opening your eyes,
changing your patterns of behavior,
changing you and then several months to a year from now, you'll look back at how you were now and shake your head and say to yourself, "I can't believe i was that guy, I wouldn't want to be with that guy if I was my wife".
Clarity.
Start praying for clarity.
Until your eyes are really open about all of this, you won't ever see what needs to be done.
- I know you've mentioned that you overstepped some sexual boundaries with your wife but I don't think your marital problems hinge on this issue alone.
- Otherwise she wouldn't sleep in the same bed as you.
Wouldn't "cuddle" with you as you've written a few times already.
- Heck you guys got high and had sex recently: getting drunk or high doesn't make you do things you would never do, they build up your confidence to stupid crazy levels and remove your inhibitions so that do the things you wanted to do. Regardless of what your wife says, she wanted to have sex with you that night: the weed or whatever else you were using was just the key that unlocked that door.
- She is still civil with you, from the sounds of how you describe it, she is even nice to you.
- didn't she bring you food from her work a week or so ago, why would someone do that for someone else if they didn't care for them?
Part of her likes you, possibly still loves you but another part of her is sick of crap behavior, your slacker attitude, your ability to quit something as soon as you start it: it sounds very boring, very lax, there is no excitement and she wants that sizzle to go with her steak if you know what I mean.
You've done some good work in some areas, you were there at the hospital for her and while she is recovering so you do have some redeeming qualities.
Time to be critical of yourself and look at you like someone else would look at you.
The trip idea, still a bad one.
Why not separate for a while and see if she still wants to go on a trip with you & the kids a few months from now.
Here's a 180, go on a trip without her & the kids.
Give her the gift of missing you.
Detach.
Let go of the outcome.
Assume you are separated & divorced already.
Limit your contact with her, keep your conversations quiet, respond to her when she talks but don't give her more than what she asks when she is talking to you.
You pursue to darn much and it's boring to her, she can have you whenever she wants to, she knows this, you aren't a challenge anymore, same old indy and she's evolving into someone different that wants her partner to evolve as well and you aren't.
As far as DB'ing,
don't complain about DB'ing not working if you don't actually put some heart into it. If you were a boxer I'd call you "glass jaw indy", one punch and you're down. You have this defeatist attitude which your wife has no doubt felt.
Are you going to start DB'ing or are you just going to apologize that you couldn't DB because it didn't "feel right" or "it didn't apply to me and my situation, it's unique".
Yeah, we're all unique and yet we're all human, and we all had relationship issues at one time. This is your time, you going to sit on these forums and feel sorry for yourself or are you finally going to start moving on & get a life and give her the gift of missing you?
The hardest part about having a choice in all of this is not being used to wielding that kind of power in your life when you've been used to someone else calling the shots all the time with your life.
Are you ready to take control of your life?
It's up to you.
WOW. I needed that. And huge.
Back to square one starting now.
Other than the XMAS trip (I want that for the kids and me)I promise to myself to get back to basics.
Seriously.
WOW.
she wants to separate from you,
allow her to,
separate from her,
take the kids on that trip,
no one says you have to take her.
You want to take her because you're afraid to tell her NO.
She knows this, we all know this from listening to what you post.
Rob I am finally back on track with you....except for the trip thing.
It is our family XMAS tradition with our kids. Would you honestly take your kids away from their mother at XMAS and at the same time remove their mother from their annual vacation?
You may, but I won't, knowing how much it means to them.
Let's just agree to disagree on this one and the money thing which is already done, and move on. Even if they are "wrong", 2 things are going to be the ultimate in final outcome.
I'm on board.
Rob I am finally back on track with you....except for the trip thing.
It is our family XMAS tradition with our kids. Would you honestly take your kids away from their mother at XMAS and at the same time remove their mother from their annual vacation?
Who is leaving who? Is she leaving you or are you leaving her? Are you going to take her on your family holiday outings when and if you split up for good? What about when you've found someone else (or she has)?
You may, but I won't, knowing how much it means to them.
Let's just agree to disagree on this one and the money thing which is already done, and move on. Even if they are "wrong", 2 things are going to be the ultimate in final outcome.
I'm on board.
Well, ya gotta do what you think is best for your relationship. And I'll support your right to try.
Just don't be surprised if you come back to tell us what a disaster the trip was and we say "we
tried to tell you..."
She is leaving me. We have met several families while on vacation that go away after a divorce. I can't predict the future, but it's possible we would do the same. What happens in the next year and how my wife and I handle it will decide that.
As for when one of has found someone else, that will change things, since that relationship will be a priority. And by then my kids will likely have their own lives and own plans for holidays.
I'm not doing what I think is best for my relationship with my wife. I am doing what I think is best for everyone right now.
The trip will be whatever we all make it.
That's my final comment on the trip!
I have reclaimed a few traditions... Thanksgiving. Still had it minus one person. That was commented on and got back to me. Local town festivals. Still went but with another woman. Posted pictures on that evil facebook. Do not know the outcome of that with her. Does it matter ? No. But with me it was a beautiful day where I knew that I can still do the stuff I like and well I just happened to share that joy with someone else. It was a choice I thought about for a few days and then said F that. I enjoy that day. So I am still going to enjoy that day. And guess what. I did.
I sent you an email but it bounced Indy.
Look I understand the trip thing is hard. But to me it looks like you want to attend your own funeral of your marriage because you think it is over and just maybe it will turn it around. That is a huge caculated risk that your taking. My guess is that your going to start to obsess about it. Build up a ton of stress. But its your choice. I do not think it will be your final comment on the trip
Either way. Have a good night. Have a good weekend. Enjoy your kids. No R talks. Get out and exercise. Get your teeth whiter... Do what ever. But go out and do something. Even go for a nice walk.
I got a house all to myself this weekend so I am going to stay in catch my breathe and watch some horror movies. Jog 10 to 20 km and start to figure out all the stuff I missed at work when I went AWOL the last few months from myself.
No comment.
Maybe I gave you the wrong email. It is: ontario_indy@hotmail.com
I really don't use that for anything, so no problem posting the addy here.
I just played foosball with S16 (well he will be 16 on Monday) for the first time in quite a while. I like that kid!
I read a little more of Love Dare. Definitely pursuing. Dropping it now!
she wants to separate from you,
allow her to,
separate from her,
take the kids on that trip,
no one says you have to take her.
You want to take her because you're afraid to tell her NO.
She knows this, we all know this from listening to what you post.
Yep.
Taking just your kids on this trip, Indy, would accomplish like FOUR birds with one stone.
Puppy
I used to love Sundays - the one day the whole family was home and we had our Sunday night family dinner together. Today, is Sunday and I am hating it. While we are existing in the house for another month, that's it - existing. It makes me so sad.
I went to church this morning, kepy myself busy with house chores and our best couple friends just stopped by. It all just made me more sad rather than feel better. It sucks that down time is no longer enjoyable. I know...I know...GAL. Easy to say, tough to get a life you don't want.
We are having birthday dinner for son and my father in law later today at restaraunt my wife manages. I know I need to go for my son's sake, but I will be acting the whole time.
Very bad day today. And to make it worse it seems like wife is in no way sad that a 21 year relationship is ending. Yes, she feels bad for kids, but is excited about leaving me. I HATE that.
I used to love Sundays - the one day the whole family was home and we had our Sunday night family dinner together. Today, is Sunday and I am hating it. While we are existing in the house for another month, that's it - existing. It makes me so sad.
I went to church this morning, kepy myself busy with house chores and our best couple friends just stopped by. It all just made me more sad rather than feel better. It sucks that down time is no longer enjoyable. I know...I know...GAL. Easy to say, tough to get a life you don't want.
We are having birthday dinner for son and my father in law later today at restaraunt my wife manages. I know I need to go for my son's sake, but I will be acting the whole time.
Very bad day today. And to make it worse it seems like wife is in no way sad that a 21 year relationship is ending. Yes, she feels bad for kids, but is excited about leaving me. I HATE that.
UGGG!!!
Talking to you is painful, you don't listen and you don't take advice and you apparently don't want to change.
Yes your wife probably isn't sad that a 21 year relationship is ending if this is how you're going to be always.
Tough getting a life you don't want - maybe.
Tough having a life you don't want - definitely!
And that's how your wife feels right now, are you able to see that? The life she currently has with you isn't what she wants. But because you still want it as is, she should want it too? Is that your logic? Why should she want it if you want it?
She wants someone different, someone exciting, someone who isn't boring, predictable, someone who isn't easy - easy isn't exciting.
As for the trip thing, of course she's going to go & enjoy a trip and it isn't because of the family. She's gotten past the point of feeling responsible & obligated to your family - if she still felt that way about your family, I'm sure she wouldn't make this decision. She's going on the trip with you & the kids because it's one last item at your expense and she figures "why not!" Seriously, her opinion of you is someone who is quasi pathetic, trying to buy her love with trips & money and by doing so you're demonstrating that you are low value to her and she is high value now, she's picked herself up from where she was and determined she deserves better. She has no problem using you for a trip or money or anything else like that because she doesn't respect you enough to take your feelings into account, if she took your feelings into consideration, she probably wouldn't go on the trip, she would have the thought of "I can't go on this trip with him, he's going to think it means something that I'm coming and I don't want to mislead him" but she is way past that, she is at the point where she's thinking "free trip, awesome! separate rooms, awesome! a vacation on his dime, awesome! I'm moving out after the trip, awesome! awesome! when is he going to get a clue LOL!"
You're sitting on these forums complaining about how bad life is and she's tired of that wussy unattractive behavior as well. You said it yourself:
"...And to make it worse it seems like wife is in no way sad that a 21 year relationship is ending. Yes, she feels bad for kids, but is excited about leaving me. I HATE that. "
This says a few things:
- she should feel different, she should feel the way I think she should feel (controlling)
- she is excited about leaving me, I hate that (I can't control her life and my life is spiraling out of control)
- a 21 year relationship apparently means something to you, what does it mean that your wife doesn't share that feeling, is it because she feels like she is escaping a life with you that she possibly considers is a prison of some sort? When a person is excited about leaving another person, what does that say about the relationship? What does it say about you that you are apparently clueless as to how bad the relationship is that you still want it but she doesn't? Have you looked at your relationship objectively and really identified all of the bad things that made it into what it is today?
I'm not asking you to take responsibility for her actions.
I am asking you to take responsibility for your actions.
I am asking you to start doing things differently in your life if you want different results.
I am asking you to stop making excuses as to why you can't do a certain thing or things to change the direction of your life and the relationship you're in.
I am asking you to be consistent in your actions and not give up after 3-4 hours, days, weeks, months, etc.
When are you going to get it Indy?
I am asking you to start doing things differently in your life if you want different results.
I am asking you to start doing things differently in your life if you want different results.
I am asking you to start doing things differently in your life if you want different results.
Me too.
It works.
Handle it.
Cheers
- I think there's an echo in here ;-)
OK, I'm going to give the guy a break. Sometimes it takes a kick in the gut to get moving. It's taken me several and I still backslide into the "it wasn't so bad" mentality.
So yes, I'll agree it's tough having to act happy when your life is crumbling. So take a deep breath and get through it.
I said I wouldn't make further comments about the trip, so let's consider this me correcting some errors made by RobX. The trip is being paid for our of our money, not mine. Wife is fine with us staying in same room, but I am not. She has clealry stated to me that I should not read anything into the trip.
As for her wanting someone exciting and better, of ocurse she does. And of course, I want to be that person. I'm just simply not there yet. And I know I give up after 3-4 hours, days or whatever.
Today, for the first time ever, son and I worked out together. It helps with 2 of my goals: work on me and develop better relationship with my kids. It was great while we were doing it, but as soon as it was over, I was right back to feeling like crap.
I know you "pros" are fed up with me and you have the right to be. Heck, I am fed up with me too.
I have no idea how I am going to find the strength within myself to be consistent in my actions to make my life something I am happy with. I have gone to a counselor, gone to church, found a divorce support group, and so far none of it has made a difference.
I gotta do more.
I am asking you to start doing things differently in your life if you want different results.
I am asking you to stop making excuses as to why you can't do a certain thing or things to change the direction of your life and the relationship you're in.
I am asking you to be consistent in your actions and not give up after 3-4 hours, days, weeks, months, etc.
If you are willing to "do anything" to try to save your relationship then it seems silly to discount GALing and 180s, not pursuing, etc. as being worth the effort.
If I told you that you could absolutely save your marriage if you dressed different, showed more interest in getting out and doing stuff, or took up a new hobby, and
kept it up, wouldn't that be worth it?
Well, I can't give you the 100% guarantee. But it's like the Powerball ad i heard on the radio:
"Odd are 1 in 3 million that you will win something if you play. They are much higher if you don't."
"Odd are 1 in 3 million that you will win something if you play. They are much higher if you don't."
Or as New York's Lottery commercials say, "Hey, Ya never know..."
I know how you feel about sundays. That was the day that WAS and I spent the whole day together. But you can reclaim that day. Still do the stuff that you two liked to do. But introduce something new to it. That way it has changed and becomes your day. Remember before it was your day. But you shared it with your wife. Enjoyed it with your wife. Now you gotta learn to enjoy it for yourself. Then down the road when you share that day out. Your enjoying it for yourself and you are enjoying that your sharing it out freely. Unconditional love. This is just a little piece to the that puzzle. Well thats what I think. If I am a little off on that thought, then I would like some advice there.
Remember that she is excited about leaving because its new and exciting. The self has taken over.
You need to be excited as well. Its a new life for you as well. Reguardless of the outcome. This is a new life for you. You can take the negatives of all this and have a horrorable second half. Or you can learn, adapt, become a better Indy. A better Indy will be a better person to himself, children, family and future partner. Positive things happen to positive people.
Indy no matter what. NO R TALK.
WHAT LIFE DO YOU WANT ?
Seriously
List each item with the starting words...
I would like....
Then take the top 5 and rewrite them to start with the words
I choose....
Then we can help you towards those goals.
Take a day or two to really think about this and write down what ever hits your mind. You should come up with a list of 50 items or so... No Item too small. O.K.
WHAT LIFE DO YOU WANT ?
Time to start swimming up stream for a change.
WHAT LIFE DO YOU WANT ?
Seriously
List each item with the starting words...
I would like....
Then take the top 5 and rewrite them to start with the words
I choose....
Then we can help you towards those goals.
Take a day or two to really think about this and write down what ever hits your mind. You should come up with a list of 50 items or so... No Item too small. O.K.
WHAT LIFE DO YOU WANT ?
Time to start swimming up stream for a change.
Gardener likes this
Oh boy, another item on the ol' To-Do List
Seriously, though, thanks, cutter
Good stuff, Cutter!
Puppy
I have no idea where to start today - but have so many things running though my head and since I am work, I don't have the jounral I have been writing in the last few days, and need to get some of this stuff out of my head.
Yesterday, we had Bday party for my son (he's 16 today!) and my father in law. I managed to get through it with a smile on my face most of the time for son's sake. At the end, my wife's terminally ill 89 year old grandmother said to me "I'm sorry for your loss - only you can put it back together". She literally may die any day now and that just might be the last thing she ever says to me. I know I should control my emotions, but that made me cry in front of everyone. I wasn't the only one though - lots of tears as everyone watched her being taken out in a wheelchair.
I have tried not to have R talks with wife, but they just come up, since everything seems to be tied to our R. She said this weekend, "I am not excited to leave you, but I am excited to feel safe and not threatened". Yes, we had problems for years, but that damn night when I violated her is the reason she finally decided to get out. I know we shouldn't believe everything we hear, but in this case, I think she's being honest. Sure, we still sleep in the same bed now, but she can do that because as she says "you don't feel you have the right to me now". She thinks that if she stayed, I would eventually go back to my old ways of treating her like a "piece of meat".
I think that's one of the reasons my dbing keeps falling apart - I believe she needs time away from me to heal and forgive. If in that time, she realizes she is happier away from me, or finds someone else, than letting her leave will have been the wrong thing for our marriage and for me. If on the other hand, I can finally apply db principles and she chooses to come back to me, I would be the happiest man on earth.
I tossed and turned all night last night trying to get it together. Today, I put on new clothes I bought recently and told myself I can do better. Until, I detach from my wife, I think I will continue to falter. Everything she does, still affects me. I think of her and us constantly. I try not to let her know these things. I only tell them here, because it's safe and if the Pros are ever going to help me, I need to be honest.
In my moments of clarity, I know my wife is already gone. The physical move may not be until December 1st, but she is gone. She is safe. The trick is to move on without her and not wait until later. I know that. Doing it is another thing - when I ache inside every day and just want us back. Again - please let me be honest here. I won't let my wife see or fail my pain.
I'll add more in a few minutes.
I know how you feel about sundays. That was the day that WAS and I spent the whole day together. But you can reclaim that day. Still do the stuff that you two liked to do. But introduce something new to it. That way it has changed and becomes your day. Remember before it was your day. But you shared it with your wife. Enjoyed it with your wife. Now you gotta learn to enjoy it for yourself. Then down the road when you share that day out. Your enjoying it for yourself and you are enjoying that your sharing it out freely. Unconditional love. This is just a little piece to the that puzzle. Well thats what I think. If I am a little off on that thought, then I would like some advice there.
Remember that she is excited about leaving because its new and exciting. The self has taken over.
You need to be excited as well. Its a new life for you as well. Reguardless of the outcome. This is a new life for you. You can take the negatives of all this and have a horrorable second half. Or you can learn, adapt, become a better Indy. A better Indy will be a better person to himself, children, family and future partner. Positive things happen to positive people.
Indy no matter what. NO R TALK.
WHAT LIFE DO YOU WANT ?
Seriously
List each item with the starting words...
I would like....
Then take the top 5 and rewrite them to start with the words
I choose....
Then we can help you towards those goals.
Take a day or two to really think about this and write down what ever hits your mind. You should come up with a list of 50 items or so... No Item too small. O.K.
WHAT LIFE DO YOU WANT ?
Time to start swimming up stream for a change.
Cutter - I would love to reclaim Sunday - or any down time for that matter. Right now, downtime means my mind thinks of all the bad stuff. I hate that. I try to keep busy, but unless it's something that takes 100% concentration, my mind still goes. I am hoping my counselor will help with that.
As I said earlier, I'm not so sure she is excited about leaving. More about feeling safe and not used. I know I should have made it more difficult to leave and start her new life, but I didn't. I relaize I am allowing her to cake eat, by going on the XMAS vacation, having full access to the kids and house after her move out, but I'm putting my kids needs first. They may be teenagers, but they love her deeply. So much so, that they are happy for her. Seriously.
I think it may be a little late for no R talk. We have had so many. But that's one db principal, even I can handle from here forward. Seems like it's the easy way out for her, but it's a fundamental of dbing, so I'm there.
As for what life, I want - I don't think any of the pros would like the answer that comes to mind first, so I better take a while to think of it.
Ok...got all that off my chest (but not my mind - dammit) time to concentrate on work. That is why they give me this desk........
I have tried not to have R talks with wife, but they just come up, since everything seems to be tied to our R. She said this weekend, "I am not excited to leave you, but I am excited to feel safe and not threatened". Yes, we had problems for years, but that damn night when I violated her is the reason she finally decided to get out. I know we shouldn't believe everything we hear, but in this case, I think she's being honest. Sure, we still sleep in the same bed now, but she can do that because as she says "you don't feel you have the right to me now". She thinks that if she stayed, I would eventually go back to my old ways of treating her like a "piece of meat".
Just so that I have it on record,
I think that's a big load o' bullshit.Puppy
What's bullshit PDT???
That I try not to get into R talks?
Or..her comments? Or just how much the violation makes her want out?
Puppy, we had lots of issues over the years and she always stayed with me and worked at our R when I didn't, but this time she made the decision to go.
Please clarify.
I have tried not to have R talks with wife, but they just come up, since everything seems to be tied to our R.
Just so that I have it on record,
I think that's a big load o' bullshit.Puppy
"...But they just come up because everything seems to be tied into our R...."
- wow... you must be the only one whoever felt like that....
Indy you have an excuse for everything, you have to learn to STOP doing that.
If your wife brings up relationship talk, here is what you will do, keep your responses to 1-3 words and offer no direction or answers, "Yes", "I agree", "Yes I agree", "You're right".
That's pretty much the way you will respond to any relationship talk she brings up. That should cover 99% of any topic she'll have for you regarding the relationship.
Don't start any other conversations either, you will start to become silent.
I guess we can only ask that you do this,
tomorrow you'll come up with an excuse that will start like "but she said this, .... and she did this...."
I think she's making excuses for her own decision to cut and run from her marriage.
I think if and when you guys reconcile -- or even if you don't, and someday she comes to grips with the truth of her decisions -- she will tell you that it was b.s., and that she was using this as an excuse.
I think she's re-writing your marital history to justify her waywardness.
I'm NOT excusing your behavior; I just think she's magnifying it, smelling your (justifiable) weakness on the issue, and using that as her excuse to flee the marriage.
Puppy
"I am not excited to leave you, but I am excited to feel safe and not threatened".
Your job as a husband is to make your wife feel secure, I don't care if that sounds sexist or not, that's your job. And you failed that job, your wife even gives you clues about this but you continue to keep walking around in your own fog not understanding how she can so easily give up the relationship she has with you.
She doesn't feel secure with you. All she knows is that when the $hit hits the fan, you're there to protect & take care of yourself first and her afterwards. That's what she is used to. You don't make her feel secure & protected, so much so that living apart from you will enable her to feel more safe.
Are you grasping this idea yet?
Your wife is actually giving you some answers on your problems.
And if you expand on the answers... Get up and leave. If she asks why. Just say. " I am going to think on that for awhile " Walk away.
NO R TALK.
As someone who wants to help you. I gave you a task for you to complete. Its your choice to complete this task. I really think you should. It will help you help yourself. This can be a start. It will also give you something else to think about.
Have not given up hope for you yet....
I think she's making excuses for her own decision to cut and run from her marriage.
I think if and when you guys reconcile -- or even if you don't, and someday she comes to grips with the truth of her decisions -- she will tell you that it was b.s., and that she was using this as an excuse.
I think she's re-writing your marital history to justify her waywardness.
I'm NOT excusing your behavior; I just think she's magnifying it, smelling your (justifiable) weakness on the issue, and using that as her excuse to flee the marriage.
Puppy
yup, yup, and more yup!
Indy you and I are around the same time frame since the bomb...
You need to get over this self pity bs and step up to the plate. Its very frustrating to you and everyone who is currently in your life. You are writing the escape plan for your WAS.... If you do not belive that. Start harping about something else for a few days to her... And you will see she will write that into her script as well. STOP.
She doesn't feel secure with you. All she knows is that when the $hit hits the fan, you're there to protect & take care of yourself first and her afterwards. That's what she is used to. You don't make her feel secure & protected, so much so that living apart from you will enable her to feel more safe.
I'm going to add that the 'violation' is NOT what makes her feel insecure. It's your reaction to all of HER issues that is making her insecure. I'll echo others who say that she uses that as emotional leverage because she knows inside that when she does, it will knock you off balance, thus proving you are not able to protect her.
As David Cunningham says "If you can't stand up TO me, how can you stand up FOR me". Well, how can you?
Read Deida's book also. "The way of the Superior Man".
You need to NO LONGER REACT to anything she says about the past EXCEPT to say "I can see how you might feel that way".
And yeah, YOU end conversations.
I'm working on the task. You said to take a couple of days. Otherwise (you know me) I am just going to say what I want in my life is........... my wife..........You know, Indy being Indy.
I will come up with real answers.
I know the R talks have to end. I say I won't take part, and then (me being me) I am so happy to have any kind of attention from wife I talk to her and hear her reasoning and I believe it.
So..the only solution for me, is absolute zero on R talks...or anything that could lead to one, before I know it. Best for ME to err on the side of caution.
Up until now, I have been feeling nothing but guilt, shame and sorrow. I have been trying so hard to be the nice guy and putting off my conflicting feelings of anger, distrust for my wife that I have been letting her play me.
I keep telling myself that such a nice woman, wouldn't be like that. I forget she's an alien. As you folks keep pounding it into my head, I am slowly starting to get it. I can't promise 100% turnaround immediately, but...
I can stop reacting to everything she says and does.
I can work on forgiving myself for past actions.
I can stop talking about R.
I can do more to GAL.
I can stop letting her see my pain and hurt.
I can create some mystery.
I can detach much more - and that I think is most important.
I can really listen when she says something - then walk away if it's about R - or continue to listen and vailidate if it isn't.
can is a weak word. This would be a good time to try the word WILL
Cutter - I'll save the re-typing, but consider the word "can" changed to "will" in the above post.
I just read the entire detaching thread. Some incredible stuff there. Suff I needed.
Indy, you got to let the guilt go. You are not looking at your own situation clearly.
You were a horny guy who tried to have sex with your plastered wife.
What puppy said! back a page. if you were truly the chester the molester you are making yourself out to be your wife would not be sleeping in the same bed as you and you would not have had stoned out sex.
her waywardness and your weakness are the issues, now. work on yours then start dealing with hers.
I'm getting there Steve. My wife did such a good job of convincing herself that she is justified in leaving with that night as the final straw, that she had me convinced.
Even if what I did was wrong, I have sincerely apologised. And that is not what is ending my marriage. My wife is making that choice. I do not and will not feel guilty for her choice.
PDT,
I think she's making excuses for her own decision to cut and run from her marriage.
I think if and when you guys reconcile -- or even if you don't, and someday she comes to grips with the truth of her decisions -- she will tell you that it was b.s., and that she was using this as an excuse.
I think she's re-writing your marital history to justify her waywardness.
Puppy
Just following along and I just had to hijack and thank you for this. This what my wife was doing!
At least back when she still communicated with me.
ok.. read the whole thing and just have to say a few things from a chick-a-dee
Your wife is full of sh*t and you must stop eating from that plate.... My H has played around with me when I was sleeping and maybe even intoxicated a time or two. One time early on in our marriage... I told him the next day that I had been really drunk and didn't like that... you know what he just thought I was into it, he didn't know (like you didn't know she was on drugs) that I was as intoxicated as I was. She feels perfectly safe with you or she wouldn't have been sleeping NAKED in the bed with you afterwards. These are her excuses to beat you up and beat you down.
Guess what sometimes I get in bed and play with my H while he is sleeping and sometimes he wakes up and sometimes he doesn't so I stop.
Oh, and good luck making a criminal issues out of it... kinda hard to prove your so frightend and scared when you move back and sleep in the same bed NAKED with your husband and she's gonna file a report months later ... good luck with that one.
Leave your wife alone for now.... your torturing yourself with all these self depreciating thoughts and it is coming thru.
BTW, most people that keep there new apartments hidden are having an affair.... we didn't know where H was living for a few months. They don't want you snooping.
As far as the vacation, I hear what you are saying but if you think day to day lives are tough...you just wait..this has disaster written all over it.
So from this chick-a-dee to you....
make some changes fast... get out more
ask you C about medication... you need some for anxiety or depression or maybe they can give you something to make you zip your lip. (That was a joke)
Frankly, my saved marriage is on the rocks right now, with the current revelation that he just doens't love me anymore after all the chit I have been thru with him it's exhausting and I make myself get up and workout, run or something everyday. There is no options om this.... do I miss out on time with my kids cause of this.... yes because all though I am home everyday and could go to the gym.... I wait till the evening 2-3 nights a week and go when H is home. Does he wonder if I am really at the gym ... probably not but it's not something i normally do so it's different.
DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT
Stop talking about doing it and do it
JUST DO IT
Go out to a coffee shop... buy a paper and read it real slow there...Give yourself some space.
Now, I am gonna say this and it won't sound nice coming from a nice girl like me but put your big boy underwear on and act like a man. Even if you don't feel like it, act like it
Your wife has been bullying you to make you feel like sh*t about yourself ... so you've done that for awhile ...NOW STOP IT.
i quess i missed this, your wife has an apartment and is keeping its location secret? you said she was still living at home and she is moving out around/after the holidays right? the location is secret?
Yes, Steve she has signed a lease for December 1st. And yes, she said she doesn't want me to know where it is. Our kids will visit there, so obviously they will know. I am fully aware that all of that reeks of her having an affair. Just because she doesn't want me to know where it is, it doesn't mean I won't. It also doesn't mean I won't have people watching who comes and goes from that apartment. I'm not an idiot.
But, I am also leaving open the possibility that she doesn't want me to know, because she thinks I will stalk her. That would be in line with things I have done in the past. I'm not buying into her bull**** here. None of you know what I have done before - and if you did, you would see that it's possible. She may simply want to feel like she truly is away from me and has time to heal. Or she could be setting up an amazing love nest. Right now, it's not the most important thing to me. As I have told her, if there is someone else, that changes everything. And it will.
I told you about the night, my wife refers to as "sexual assault", but that was only the final one in a series of such actions that would demean any woman - and because I didn't want to be too graphic here, I don't think I explained just how long it lasted, and how far I went. As for how she can still sleep naked beside me, I think it's because she knows I wouldn't do it again and lose any chance at saving our marriage, and her turning nasty etc. Also, as I have said before, in her mind, she is already gone. We are just two people lying there.
Or....she's setting up an amazing love nest for her and some OM. I am 100% aware and prepared for the possibility.
Right now, it's not my main focus. I am almost at the point of forgiving myself for all the nasty things. I am also starting to do a much better job of GAL. I attended a divorce support group for the first time last night. It went much better than I thought it would be. Other things, that are not related to my marriage will be part of my GAL. I have made plans with a friend from work for this Saturday - which is our anniversary. I am going to go out, have fun and not be at home having a pity party for me.
I am seriously working on de-taching and focusing on me. I have a new sense of calm for longer periods of the day than anytime since I returned to this site.
I finally feel real progress in the last couple of days and I am even feeling a little proud of me!
ok.. read the whole thing and just have to say a few things from a chick-a-dee
Your wife is full of sh*t and you must stop eating from that plate.... My H has played around with me when I was sleeping and maybe even intoxicated a time or two. One time early on in our marriage... I told him the next day that I had been really drunk and didn't like that... you know what he just thought I was into it, he didn't know (like you didn't know she was on drugs) that I was as intoxicated as I was. She feels perfectly safe with you or she wouldn't have been sleeping NAKED in the bed with you afterwards. These are her excuses to beat you up and beat you down.
My wife was virtually comatose. I went way beyond playing. It lasted for a long time and it was very graphic. It is her excuse to feel okay about leaving, and it has become very real to her.
Guess what sometimes I get in bed and play with my H while he is sleeping and sometimes he wakes up and sometimes he doesn't so I stop.
Oh, and good luck making a criminal issues out of it... kinda hard to prove your so frightend and scared when you move back and sleep in the same bed NAKED with your husband and she's gonna file a report months later ... good luck with that one.
I know legally it would be unlikely to stick - but technically it was rape. Believe me, it was.
Leave your wife alone for now.... your torturing yourself with all these self depreciating thoughts and it is coming thru.
I am finally doing that now.
BTW, most people that keep there new apartments hidden are having an affair.... we didn't know where H was living for a few months. They don't want you snooping.
She just may be.
As far as the vacation, I hear what you are saying but if you think day to day lives are tough...you just wait..this has disaster written all over it.
Oddly enough, daily life for the family is really not that bad when I am being calm and not all over the place. So, vacation won't be worse, unless I let it be.
So from this chick-a-dee to you....
make some changes fast... get out more
ask you C about medication... you need some for anxiety or depression or maybe they can give you something to make you zip your lip. (That was a joke)
I may get medication, but would rather deal with the root of my issues than mask them. I will discuss that with counselor tomorrow.
Frankly, my saved marriage is on the rocks right now, with the current revelation that he just doens't love me anymore after all the chit I have been thru with him it's exhausting and I make myself get up and workout, run or something everyday. There is no options om this.... do I miss out on time with my kids cause of this.... yes because all though I am home everyday and could go to the gym.... I wait till the evening 2-3 nights a week and go when H is home. Does he wonder if I am really at the gym ... probably not but it's not something i normally do so it's different.
DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT
Stop talking about doing it and do it
JUST DO IT
Go out to a coffee shop... buy a paper and read it real slow there...Give yourself some space.
Now, I am gonna say this and it won't sound nice coming from a nice girl like me but put your big boy underwear on and act like a man. Even if you don't feel like it, act like it
Your wife has been bullying you to make you feel like sh*t about yourself ... so you've done that for awhile ...NOW STOP IT.
I think she is bullying me to make herself feel like I am the bad man, so she feels justified in leaving her house, kids and husband. She is an alien.
Yes, Steve she has signed a lease for December 1st. And yes, she said she doesn't want me to know where it is. Our kids will visit there, so obviously they will know. I am fully aware that all of that reeks of her having an affair. Just because she doesn't want me to know where it is, it doesn't mean I won't. It also doesn't mean I won't have people watching who comes and goes from that apartment. I'm not an idiot.
But, I am also leaving open the possibility that she doesn't want me to know, because she thinks I will stalk her. That would be in line with things I have done in the past. I'm not buying into her bull**** here. None of you know what I have done before - and if you did, you would see that it's possible.
Honestly? This is just my uninformed opinion, but I think that's exactly what you're doing.
You've said you're going to have people keeping an eye on her (which may or may not meet the legal definition of stalking) even though she is making an effort to stay away from you -- to the point where she won't tell you where she's moving.
You are still trying to control her.There may be others that disagree, that say you have a right to know if she's having an affair. They're not wrong; but the way you are going about it is not healthy and is just further validating her feelings about you and the R.
You think she's having an affair? Fine, assume that possibility in your mind so you can be prepared for if and when she drops that bomb on you. Be prepared to forgive her -- or, as you say, if it "changes everything", get ready to file.
You need to let her live her life right now. Sure, she's destroying your marriage and likely to be cheating on you. But those are
her decisions, and she will have learn to live with the consequences.
One of the problems with a forum like this is the differing opinions.
And I differ on this myself. I could easily have people watch to find out if she is having an affair. But...if I really am detaching, than would I do that? And if I really am changing as a person, would I do it - just like I would in the past?
I have not assumed that she is having an affair (my gut says otherwise) but have prepared myself for the possibility. And then, decide how it changes everything if she ever drops that bomb.
Gotta admit I'm not sure if I will have people watch or not.
I suppose it depends how I feel after she is the apartment.
Really though - it can't be my main focus now. Let her live her life and I will go on with mine.
In the grand scheme of things Indy it does not matter. But it would in the intermediate. It would be another piece of the puzzle that is your marriage.
Then again. It could be a show stopper for you as well.
Either way Indy. Help is here for you. How is your list coming along ?
I agree Cutter. I'm going to remove all thoughts of that from my mind at this point. That can't take my focus off more important things.
I will post my list later today if I am not busy at work.
You do not need to post it, it's for you to work on.
You should take the time to figure this out, your worth it.
I have second meeting with counselor tonight and plan on discussing the following things with him. I am thinking these will be my points of direction for my life.
Some of this is really dbing principles said slightly differently. But...I finally am putting together my own thoughts in my own way.
Your comments appreciated...
1. The pending separation is not my idea. My idea of staying together and working though things may be honorable, but is not possible - not now. Therefore, I must accept that and move on. I have no control over my wife, only over me.
2. I am living my worst case scenario right now. The "I need out now" is still fresh, we are still living together in the same house, still legally and financially bound etc - all while my wife is already gone in her mind. I am already "alone" without the benefits of being alone. I am "ok" while living the worst case, so I will be better at any other time.
Some day my alone will include my own home (not filled with memories), my own space, financial individuality and the freedom to explore a new relationship.
3. My wife wants to be away from me so badly, that she is willing to leave her kids and home. With that in mind, why would I even think a reconciliation is possible without major changes? Would I think another woman would want to be married to me, spend the rest of her life with me, if I knew she felt the way my wife does? Time to accept that and realize that right now, I don't want someone here who doesn't want to be here.
4. I must forgive myself for my sins. Don't forget them, so that I can still learn from them. But ask God to forgive and forgive myself.
5. I can't base my opinion of me, in any way on what my wife says or does. That's basically detaching, but a little more than that. I have always needed her affirmation to feel good in any way. That's not healthy and I can't have that now anyway, so I need to develop true self respect and pride.
6. It's ok for me to think about me first right now. Yes, my kids matter, but I can't be of any value to them, until I feel better about me.
7. While my wife says she wants me "in her life" and to "be friends", I have the right to feel otherwise. If as time goes by, I feel differently, than I do. I still have no intention of being mean or nasty, but being friends with my former spouse isn't required. If I want to be apart from her completely, other than when it involves our children, that is my right.
8. Our marriage is over now. Not in one month when she moves out. Not in January after the family vacation. Now. There is a very slight chance that we could have a "second" marriage some day, but this one is over.
Just typing that out and reading it back was tough for me, but good for me to. I am almost there.......almost.
Indy,
This is good. I really like your #7 -- that was a real eye-opener for my wife, too.
Your intro to #2 concerns me. When someone is as wayward as your wife is, you should be as LITTLE entangled as possible, legally and financially, starting with financially. I'd strongly suggest getting a pretty detailed legal and financial separation in place.
Puppy
Wow PDT! I finally got a positive response from you. Maybe because I am finally making some progress. I'm sure I have driven you, Coach, Cutter and certainly RobX crazy!!!
I am also concerned about the legal stuff. But...I have really put some calm objective thought into this aspect. I won't go into details, but I am almost sure it's safe for me to lay off on that part right now. I still have some control. I will see if WAW actually behaves the way she says she will after her move out. If she does, it's fairly safe to assume she will stick with her other plans. I have made the decision to take the calculated risk of not going legal at this time. It's a big risk, but I really think it's ok. I can always start that process before any major harm is done.
Big question for you and the other pros:
Since my wife is still being very caring and supportive and is happy that I am seeing a counselor, should I let her know that these were the things I talked with him about? I am sure she will ask tonight. I feel no need to hide things from her - and maybe hearing some of this will be good dbing? It's not really making promises or anything like that if it's taken in context of a counseling session -or should I just let her see my actions?
NOPE. THAT'S R talk. Do not try to pull that fast one on your wife.
ACTIONS.
Ok Cutter. I know she will ask. My response will be something positive like "it was awesome" and let her wonder.
Cutter - you said no need to post, but this is good for me....
1. I choose to have a deeper, more meaningful relationship with my kids.
2. I choose to be more comfortable in my skin.
3. I choose to find joy in small things.
4. I choose to not live in fear.
5. I choose to accept that my life may not be what I thought it would be.
6. I choose to continue my efforts to gain back that intended life, but also refuse to consider myself a failure if I am not successful.
7. I choose to forgive myself.
8. I choose to be a Leaf fan - gotta have one purely for fun.
9. I choose to be strong today when everything looks the most bleak it ever has.
10. I choose to really live my life, rather than just go through the motions as I have.
11. I choose to be healthy: emotionally, physically, mentally and financially.
There...Much like Spinal Tap...we've got 11.
I am also concerned about the legal stuff. But...I have really put some calm objective thought into this aspect. I won't go into details, but I am almost sure it's safe for me to lay off on that part right now. I still have some control. I will see if WAW actually behaves the way she says she will after her move out. If she does, it's fairly safe to assume she will stick with her other plans. I have made the decision to take the calculated risk of not going legal at this time. It's a big risk, but I really think it's ok. I can always start that process before any major harm is done.
[b]
Just be sure you're not thinking about locking your barn doors after your horses have all gone missing.
Puppy
NOPE. THAT'S R talk. Do not try to pull that fast one on your wife.
ACTIONS.
What Cutter said. ^
Ok Cutter. I know she will ask. My response will be something positive like "it was awesome" and let her wonder.
I think I would be more along the lines of.
It was a good session. Thank you for asking.
Thats it.
I am also concerned about the legal stuff. But...I have really put some calm objective thought into this aspect. I won't go into details, but I am almost sure it's safe for me to lay off on that part right now. I still have some control. I will see if WAW actually behaves the way she says she will after her move out. If she does, it's fairly safe to assume she will stick with her other plans. I have made the decision to take the calculated risk of not going legal at this time. It's a big risk, but I really think it's ok. I can always start that process before any major harm is done.
[b]
Just be sure you're not thinking about locking your barn doors after your horses have all gone missing.
Puppy
I have a plan in place and will implement when needed - before even one horse gets his whole body out the door - maybe a head, but not the whole horse.
The moment WAW veers from what she says she will do, or even hints at legal stuff (which she has ZERO interest in now) I will start on my end.
Legal stuff on my end right now, might force her out of the fog that I think she's in, but there are other actions that can do that too.
Please know that while I'm almost always advocating ACTION on the financial front, pre-emptively (firewalling the family's finances so someone who is wayward can't access them, and then TELLING them why I felt the need to do so), when I say "legal" I really am referring to nothing other than having a good, comprehensive initial (either free or paid) consultation. NO ACTION. And you do NOT need to tell your wife about it -- it's just sensible protection, considering her recent decisions and actions.
For the record.
Puppy
Gotcha Puppy. And she has very little access to family finances.
Ok. When your done that list.
I want you to start on the next list.
2 pages.
Page one
Go.
Page two.
Stay.
Write what ever you think for one week.
Here are some examples from mine
Stay
2. The most beautiful eyes
8. A chance to fall inlove again
14. Sacrifice Immediate life for a truer love later in life
25. blueberry pancakes
30. Rebuild trust
I have 30 on the stay
Go
2. Trust ? Can I ever trust her again?
8. Fall in love and have a new life
14. She is most likely to never come back
25. Not selfish
38 Gave up 13 years for a few weeks
50. Would this repeat? Not the affair but one giving up
59. Her only purpose in life is to keep an 8 year old apart from her mother and father.
So I have 59 on the go list.
I stopped adding to them about 3 weeks ago. No new ideas for either. Spent 3 weeks writing them.
What ever you Think. Write them down. And keep on your I choose list. You are going to see how it changes over the next few weeks. These questions are really going to help.
You are not allowed to repeat ideas on the go stay list.
But you can repeat ideas on the choose list. As they will evolve.
Oh yea its not about the numbers but the concept of viewing both sides of what is going on in your mind. It is also a very good exercise on teaching yourself on how to be trueful to yourself. Once you have done this for the hardest thing in your life, try it out on something trivial. It is a very good learning exercise.
My top one for choose is
I choose to be honest to myself.
Journalling....
After session with counselor last night and brief talk with WAW, I have finally made the decision to completely remove focus from "active dbing".
Being realistic, there is very little hope of busting the second time around. Now, it's more about moving on with life as it is.
That does not mean I have entirely given up hope, but may have finally let go of any hope of saving things in the near future.
I will most likely be spending less time here now, and will move over to the "separated" forum on December 1, when that becomes the case. My efforts won't end completely, but it's time to focus on things other than just trying to keep my WAW.
Thanks to all of you who really tried. I know I didn't listen and I know I did a crap job of dbing. But...I think this time, nothing would have helped. As even MWD says, some marriages just can't be saved. My wife had reached a point where she was 100% determined to (at the very least) separate and she has remained steadfast to that decision.
Thanks to the pros: Coach, RobX, Puppy. What you do for people you have never met is inspiring. You are truly good people.
Good luck, Indy. You, and your family, will continue to be in my prayers.
Puppy
Hi Indy. We should keep with writing of the lists. let me know if you want to still continue to do that. It will help with your path.
PDT: I pray every day now just for the strength to go on - but I think I should also be praying for all of those here.
Cutter: I am at a crossroads of sort today. I'm not sure what the right thing for me to do is. I think it may be time for me to take a break from "working" at everything. My mind is tired.
I have somewhat given up the fight, although not all hope. If I continue to put so much into something, that is over there will be nothing left of me. I'll still be around a bit - so we will be in touch.
Take a break. That is good. Its what you need. Then come back and work on yourself. Perhaps you have finally broken down enough to actually start GAL , Plan A or Plan B....
This can be good for you if your up to it.
Checking in and I have a question for those of you who have followed my situation.
I am having a tough time just getting through each day, but have almost accepted that fact that she will be gone soon. I don't really hide my sadness when I see my WAW, but I also don't let her see me in a mess. Even though, I know it's all but over, even just seeing her for a few minutes calms me. I need to be prepared to not have that and am working on that. We are at a new phase and I am learning to live within in. It's the toughest thing I have ever done, but I am doing it.
Tomorrow is our 17th Anniversary. I have to work during the day and have made plans to spend the night out with co-workers/friends to help get through it.
The question is: should I recognize the day in any way? I was thinking a non-anniversary card with a simple comment in it.
Please let me know what you think - and any ideas of what to write that would let my WAW know I am thinking of her, but won't make her feel bad or seem in any way pusuing.
Write her a beautiful card. Spill your guts out. Release it all.
Then take that card and burn it.
When you go out. Dress up. Still celebrate your wedding. Enjoy the night. Maybe even do some dancing.
Also do not have any pints or anything else this weekend. Depression and booze do not mix.
And if you really need to. Have a second card. Just says happy ann and your full name. Leave it at that. But keep it tucked away in your briefcase or what ever you carry around for work.
That way if she gives you a card you can give her a card as well.
Nothing more. No R talk. Just be calm.
No need for the spill my guts card. I have a journal for that. I will write in it, what I would have written in a card if things were "normal".
Going out with some guys for work - so not likely to dress up too much and definitely no dancing!
I told the guys to get me drunk enough to relax and be able to go home and lie next to me WAW - although I suspect she won't spend the night at home. I will not get drunk enough to say or do things I will regret.
I alredy planned to only give her a card if she gives me one first. I still think anything with "Anniverary" on it, is a bad idea.
I have finally stopped all R talk. Some talk regarding logistics of her move out, but only what is required. I am almost at the point of accepting that actual separation is the next phase and will be here in a matter of days.
I had a very tough day yesterday, and just seeing my WAW last night calmed me down. Soon, I won't have that, and I will deal with that when it comes. I do all I can to not let her know the pain I am in.
Day by day.....
This is all natural and part of the grief process.
My 10th anniversary was this year. I never considered doing anything. A WAW doesn't deserve any recognition of it. They are throwing away the M, why celebrate or even acknowledge its anniversary?
I actually forgot all about it on the morning of my 10th and went to work. Mid-morning I got a text message from my W saying "In case you're wondering, I am aware of what day it is today." Took me moment to figure out what she was talking about, but when I did, it hit me pretty hard. I texted back "Maybe someday I'll tell you what I had planned for this day."
Her Mom told me later on that my W was a crying wreck that day. I realized that maybe she wasn't as gone as I thought.
My advice is to ignore the day and see if your W acknowledges it in any way. That'll give you a little insight as to whether your M means anything to her any more.
Mine was dropped off at hotel we were staying at by the OM on our tenth. They were coming back from a buisness trip. This is one week before the bomb.
All I can say to that is OUCH!
That is one of those things that I really struggled with. I think it was what completely broke me back then. Just felt like pure venom. We had an ok weekend. But it was awkward. And at the time I could not put my finger on it. But now I know. Shed a ton of tears over that thought.
Up early today - can't sleep.
Yesterday was our 17 Anniversary. I gave her the "non anniversary" card - no reaction either way really and no card from her. Actually had an ok day at work.
Saw wife when I came home. She was crying a lot. Her Grandmother is now done to days to live. I went out for the night with a friend from work and she did as well. Sure is nothing compated to what I had planned only a few months ago.
I am doing well with working out with son, counselor, church, support group, and writing a journal. Much more controlled than I was.
WAW and I will be discussing financial issues later today. I have determined it is going to be tougher than I thought to keep the house for a year and a half while she is in her apartment. Funny - yesterday she said that when she is out shopping for things for her apartment, she wants to show me the stuff! She is still being quite friendly most of the time.
Let's see what happens during the $$$$ talk today....
She moves out in 3 weeks......
They do that Indy.
When mine was out looking for condo's near OM. She would tell me about restraunts in the area. Saying Oh you will like this restraunt. I could see you going there over and over. I told her that I did not want to hear these statements as I would never step foot in any of them for any reason.
Be tough on the money talks. Be fair. If your staying in the house with the kids. She needs to pay up.
Good luck.
Sent you an email.
Yesterday was our 17 Anniversary. I gave her the "non anniversary" card - no reaction either way really and no card from her.
Why?
Ever hear the one about "nice" guys finishing last....
I agree, what was the point of the card? My anniversary was yesterday and I never mentioned it to him and I honestly didn't care that he didn't mention it.
i said I wouldn't be here much....well I am down to posting once to twice a day and I have stopped reading the boards all day looking for the answer.
I think the particular card I chosse was safe. No harm done.
Money discussions are done. No real issues there either. We are both being very decent about this. She is not "paying" me, but will be buying groceries as usual and all things kids need as usual. I will be covering monthly operating expenses as always. No difference than "normal".
A couple of times in the last few days WAW has alluded to the fact that the move out is not a finality for her. Seemed genuine and not intentional. Just maybe, my nice guy thing may not have been a complete DB failure this time. We'll see.
Today after S16 and I worked out together, WAW made us a nice dinner and on her way out to meet some friends, she kissed son as usual, but then kissed me. It's been a while. No big deal, but nice.
Looking at the good things: no legal stuff started by WAW, kids are confortable and safe, I am in my house with my kids, WAW still plans on being around house some (good in some ways), WAW still being caring and considerate, no sign of ant kind of OM.
I even think there may be some good in the separation. Had she stayed, things would have been over quickly.
Only time will tell. Let's see what happens after the move out and the family XMAS vacation.
Forgot to mention, that WAW has used terms like "one day at a time" several times recently.
I know...I'm looking for any silver lining. But a glimmer of hope is beter than none. Now..to find real patience......
Hey Indy. I guess you missed the Be Fair part in my post. I am glad your being decent. Good luck. And keep with your lists. They will help.
Crumbs???I have changed my name, for 2 reasons. I think WAW may have some idea that I am on here, and I don't feel comfortable with her reading my posts and my previous name would be too easy to find me. Also, that name was one I chose the first time around 4 years ago and this is now.
Last night WAW came home stumbling drunk. She has developed a real alcohol abuse problem. I am hoping she will deal with that after we are apart. If not, at least kids won't see it nearly as much. The more I think about how dysfunctional our home is getting, the more I relaize it is time for WAW and I to be apart - and should only be together again some day, if lots of things change. It doesn't make the impending separation any easier, but at least I am starting to feel like it's partly my choice.
PDT - still wondering what you meant by "crumbs"
Journaling....
Went to divorce support group for the second time last night. It calms me and even this morning I feel better.
Every day I get a little closer to accepting the separation and even understanding that it is the only option right now, considering how my WAW feels. I am also trying to see the separation as what it most likely is - a prelude to divorce. WAW continues to show hints that there is hope for reconciliation, but I am no longer clinging to that hope as much as before. Am I finallly starting to detach?
I have reclaimed an appetite of some kind and my calm moments are lasting longer. I am still working out with S16, dressing up more often, and making an effort to GAL. It's tough with money being tighter, but I am getting there.
I know it will be another phase after WAW "slowly moves out" December 1 and then yet another January after the family vacation and starting a new year with her move out complete. Those who have read this thread know that WAW is planning on being around the house a fair amount after her move in order to see the kids. I am thinking I will go with the flow in December to ensure the vacation goes smoothly, and transition is easier on kids, but in January tell WAW I want real separation. She can still see kids, but I don't want to see or talk to her for quite some time. This will allow me to truly move on and also let her see the reality of the situation. She will still be cake eating to some extent, but only in reference to the kids and I am ok with that for their sakes.
PDT - still wondering what you meant by "crumbs"
A couple of times in the last few days WAW has alluded to the fact that the move out is not a finality for her. Seemed genuine and not intentional. Just maybe, my nice guy thing may not have been a complete DB failure this time. We'll see.
Today after S16 and I worked out together, WAW made us a nice dinner and on her way out to meet some friends, she kissed son as usual, but then kissed me. It's been a while. No big deal, but nice.
Looking at the good things: no legal stuff started by WAW, kids are confortable and safe, I am in my house with my kids, WAW still plans on being around house some (good in some ways), WAW still being caring and considerate, no sign of ant kind of OM.
Those, and the "one day at a time" comment. You just seem to be content with her being "nice," and trying to measure your DB efforts by that. I would contend that if she is still running away from you and her family, but being "nice" in the process, that those are crumbs.
Puppy
Those who have read this thread know that WAW is planning on being around the house a fair amount after her move in order to see the kids. I am thinking I will go with the flow in December to ensure the vacation goes smoothly, and transition is easier on kids, but in January tell WAW I want real separation. She can still see kids, but I don't want to see or talk to her for quite some time. This will allow me to truly move on and also let her see the reality of the situation. She will still be cake eating to some extent, but only in reference to the kids and I am ok with that for their sakes.
Puppy (and all): Just now when I was telling WAW a few things about divorce group last night she said "I never said I was divorcing you". The more I look at things with a fishbowl mentality, the more I see that WAW is really in limboland of her own making. She wants to "have her space" - but not give up the possibility of future reconciliation.
The reality may be that I pushed her out the door by doing such a crap job of dbing in the last 2 months. Now, she thinks the only way she can have space is to physcially create it. So...now it would appear that basic dbing skills applied properly could still result in a bust of this divorce. As I have made some progress in moving forward the last few days, she is suddenly saying things that allow me to know it is not over in her mind. It looks like I db'd well without even knowing it!
I am just starting to realize that with my WAW it takes a combination of nice guy and dbing to make any progress. I know - RobX would say none of us are unique, but unqiue approaches just might be ok???
Puppy - you said my idea of real separation in January is excellent - but do you think I need to be very hard core about it - or can I do the combo thing - not clearly state it to her - but instead just live it? Not be predicatble in the times I will be home - be polite if she is here, but focus on everything other than her? Since actions speak louder than words, must I actually state it or can I just live it and if she says anything deal with it then?
Puppy - you said my idea of real separation in January is excellent - but do you think I need to be very hard core about it - or can I do the combo thing - not clearly state it to her - but instead just live it? Not be predicatble in the times I will be home - be polite if she is here, but focus on everything other than her? Since actions speak louder than words, must I actually state it or can I just live it and if she says anything deal with it then?
BTM,
That is an exceptional question. Here's my take on it:
I think when it comes to DBing
tactics stuff -- GALing, 180s, etc. -- yeah, it's best to not make any grand pronouncements, and just DO it.
However, this is something
major, involving how you two tend to co-parent and communicate with each other, and it also represents a change-of-mind (which is FINE, btw!) on your part. Plus, it shows STRENGTH (Gucci's "I have decided that -- " formulation would be a good way to phrase it, btw).
So yeah, I do think you have to let her know. Nothing too dramatic, and certainly not an angry outburst -- just calm, confident, and matter-of-fact. Then, having told her, just live it out, just as you describe in the quote above.
Puppy
Now that I have become aware that at this point my WAW has not ruled out future reconciliation, I am not as excited as I thought I would be. The last couple of days, I don't even like seeing her. Now I am almost looking forward to her being out. Am I going crazy, or is this "normal"?
Have others gone through this - one day feeling like you could be patient and do whatever it takes for however long it takes - and then a few days later, just want it over? Is it because, deep down I know that after a year of living single, it's not realistic that she will want to come back?
I am doing a better job of living day by day, and caring for me, and trying not to live with one outcome in mind. But....for a planner like me, that is just plain weird. I don't want to change the basics of who I am - especially aspects that I am fine with.
I hope my question is clear - because it's unclear in my own mind today.
Journaling...
Barely spoke with WAW today since she is out of town on business. But...during a brief phone conversation she again used the term "day by day". It seems the closer we get to ther move out date, the less she becomes sure of the future.
Looking at things as objectively/fishbbowl as possible, it seems there could be a future reconciliation if I can be patient. Of course, that is not my strong suit.
I continue to do well at work, working out with S16, and making an effort to spend time doing things I enjoy.
Still riding the rollercoaster and considering asking new family doctor to medicate me. I would prefer to have access when I need it, but try not to use it all the time.
Sleeping alone tonight since WAW is gone for the night. Soon I will be doing it all the time, so I have to get used to it. That is going to be one of the toughest parts for me.
I have a question for the veterans/pros that I may not like the answer to....
I know all situations are different, but does separation (definite physical, with WAW signing a one year lease on apartment - not legal) always lead to divorce? Has anyone ever been apart for an extended time, and then reconciled?
I realize knowing the answer could be harmful to me, but I really want to know what the odds are if I can db during that year.
I realize knowing the answer could be harmful to me, but I really want to know what the odds are if I can db during that year.
I can't come up with odds because every situation is unique. You're talking about human beings -- confused, hurting human beings at that.
I can say that my parents actually got
divorced and ended up reconciling and remarrying within a year. So anything is possible.
What will influence the likelihood of your staying together is how well you GAL and turn yourself around; staying positive when dealing with your spouse; detaching yourself once you've separated and letting her see what life without you (the new, happier, confident you) is like.
I think the detaching after the move out will be the toughest part for me. I don't think I will be concerned about the specifics of what she is doing, but more how much she is enjoying single life. Will she enjoy it so much, that regardless of what I do, she will have no interest in our second marriage?
I know from a DB point of view, I have made it all too easy for her to move out and cake eat. I hope that if I apply all other db principles properly, she will see the positive aspects of working at our marriage. The reality is there will still be work to do, and it would be much easier for her to continue on in her new world. All the hard work of that will be over.
If I think about this objectively, why would any "hurt, destoyed" WAW with grown kids even consider taking the risk, when they are already well past the toughest part of ending a marriage - making the decision, moving, setting up the apartment etc? I am trying to not be negative, but also being realistic.
I know we are not supposed to live for the outcome, but I think if we are all 100% honest, we will admit that's it always on our minds. We are humans, not aliens.
If I think about this objectively, why would any "hurt, destoyed" WAW with grown kids even consider taking the risk, when they are already well past the toughest part of ending a marriage - making the decision, moving, setting up the apartment etc? I am trying to not be negative, but also being realistic.
Because eventually the hurt subsides, you change, she changes and maybe the attraction comes back again.
However, as we all know, both people must change and heal for it to even be possible.
It's the healing part that makes me think our separation could be a good thing. I don't think my WAW could ever truly heal as long as she was in a place she felt she didn't want to be.
As for attraction, I wish my overwhelming physical attraction to her would go away! Hopefully, not seeing her regularly and certainly not seeing her naked will help. At this moment, we still sleep (naked sometimes) in the same bed and I still see her in the shower etc - it kills me! Living celibate for a year, or longer sure will be easier without the temptation of my beautiful WAW in front of me.
As for attraction, I wish my overwhelming physical attraction to her would go away! Hopefully, not seeing her regularly and certainly not seeing her naked will help. At this moment, we still sleep (naked sometimes) in the same bed and I still see her in the shower etc - it kills me! Living celibate for a year, or longer sure will be easier without the temptation of my beautiful WAW in front of me.
I realize this is kind of a moot point since she's moving out imminently .. but I'm going to give you the same advice I gave Thinker. If it's killing you to wander around in the candy store while you're forbidden to eat any candy, then stop. Stop sleeping with her. Ask that she cover up a bit around the house, or at least you avoid situations where you will see her naked to the best of your ability. Nobody else is going to take care of you in this area; you have to do it.
I would hazard a guess that either she doesn't know how much (and negatively) this affects you, or does know and gets off a little on the power. Either way, do you want to enable that?
Besides which, it's a good demonstration of the *reality* of the separation she is choosing. It's all fun and games to go out drinking and still come home to a warm body in your bed. Stop serving cake. IMHO.
While we're on the subject, I think you need to consider carefully what *she* would need to do to win *you* back, should it arise. Addressing her drinking would certainly appear on that list. Not trying to get you into the snatching-at-crumbs "hopeful" headspace; more like pointing out that being married, cherished, and forgiven is a privilege for *both* partners. Don't sell yourself short.
I realize this is kind of a moot point since she's moving out imminently .. but I'm going to give you the same advice I gave Thinker. If it's killing you to wander around in the candy store while you're forbidden to eat any candy, then stop. Stop sleeping with her. Ask that she cover up a bit around the house, or at least you avoid situations where you will see her naked to the best of your ability. Nobody else is going to take care of you in this area; you have to do it.
In other words, assert yourself and set boundaries. Stop being afraid you'll say/do things that might 'push her away'.
Believe me, she WANTS you to be assertive, confident and set boundaries with her. She wants to see a real man in her life.
I will keep sleeping with her for the next couple of weeks, simply because I refuse to give up my bed. I just have to try harder not to look when she becomes uncovered during the night.
I doubt she even thinks about how it affects me. As for her coming home to a warm body - my body is of no interest to her. The reality of that part of the separation is the best for her. She still says the final decision to leave now was due to the night I violated her in a drunken/drugged state. She uses the word "safe" a lot. I think she's being quite honest - but if that's the case, how can she stand sleeping the same bed now?? No need to go over that again - it's been discussed several times in this thread.
As for her winning me back, that's a long way from happening, but I have thought of that. Our second marriage would start differently than the first. There would be open discussion regarding expectations. She would need to have her drinking under control, really be looking after her physical illness issues, be far more open and responsible regarding finances and her on again / off again smoking would hopefully be done, or at the very least more off than on. While I am happy about making some changes in me, she would need to love me unconditionally too.
Over the years, WAW often said that I love her, but don't really like her. There's some truth there. The second time around she would need to like me too. I have so much guilt and shame right now, but I still know I am not a bad man and I deserve to be cherished too.
Over the years, WAW often said that I love her, but don't really like her. There's some truth there. The second time around she would need to like me too. I have so much guilt and shame right now, but I still know I am not a bad man and I deserve to be cherished too.
See, that's the thing here. Too often we think we need to 'win back' our WAS's. 3 years ago when I DB'd and 'won her back' that was a HUGE f'ing mistake on my part.
I had made a lot of changes, I was strong and together. I was STARTING to think that I didn't WANT her back. Then she came back.
What I didn't see was that I needed HER to win ME back. But I made it too easy. I adopted the attitude that I 'won' her back. So I did most of the work. She didn't have to do anything really. She didn't have to change.
Fast forward to 2 years ago and everything went back to the way it was. Bad. Here we are again only this time we ARE being divorced.
Same actions, new OM, want's to be happy, kids are devastated.
Because when she had her affair, I didn't grow enough in my self worth to feel that I WAS WORTH FIGHTING FOR. Not just my marriage, but ME.
I still know I am not a bad man and I deserve to be cherished too.
So, as my counselor said to me the other day:
When are you going to stop giving to someone who isn't going to give you what you want in return?
Sometimes, when you stop, they miss it and try to get it back. Especially if you feel GOOD about stopping.
I have been so focused on the fact that she's leaving me, I have missed the fact that she is leaving me. She is choosing to walk out rather than any other option. While I understand why she is doing it, I am only starting to become aware that I have the right to be angry - not just sad.
I have been so focused on the fact that she's leaving me, I have missed the fact that she is leaving me. She is choosing to walk out rather than any other option. While I understand why she is doing it, I am only starting to become aware that I have the right to be angry - not just sad.
Yep. It's only taken me almost 2 years of struggling with that - being angry is OK. WE are not required to always be the ones saving things. They need to do their part - and they won't.
Last night I went to bed rather early. WAW came home late from work and got in bed. I was half asleep, but realized she was crying. She was upset about impending death of her grandmother and how her family is handling end of life car, funeral arrangements, etc. There is very little money in the family, and if were not our current situation, I would offer up money to give the woman a respectful burial etc. I'm not sure WAW gets the point that we can't help out financially due to WAW needs.
I consoled WAW and she wound up lying on my chest and talking. That turned to spooning - which in "normal" times often leads to sex. Well....last night it almost did as well. We came very close, but WAW said something like "we shouldn't do this right now" and something about me being "black and white". She says that a lot lately. Likely because she is living in gray.
Anyway, I also decided it was not the right thing at the right time and turned away from WAW and went to sleep. This morning WAW was still very upset about her grandmother, but neither of us mentioned the physical stuff from last night.
Once again, though, it appears that the woman who said she needs to move out now because she doesn't feel safe, is acting differently than what she says.
The saga continues.....
Besides which, it's a good demonstration of the *reality* of the separation she is choosing. It's all fun and games to go out drinking and still come home to a warm body in your bed. Stop serving cake. IMHO.
While we're on the subject, I think you need to consider carefully what *she* would need to do to win *you* back, should it arise. Addressing her drinking would certainly appear on that list. Not trying to get you into the snatching-at-crumbs "hopeful" headspace; more like pointing out that being married, cherished, and forgiven is a privilege for *both* partners. Don't sell yourself short.
Just saw this. "Ditto" and "Amen!"
Puppy
Yesterday I posted that she has no interest in my warm body. But, read my post prior to this and well.....
I have really been thinking about what I would want from my WAW if we were to ever start over. Suddenly, I am aware of just how much about our marriage was not so great. I was simply so busy with day to day stuff, I never took the time to really think about my own happiness.
Maybe WAW is right. I love her, but do I truly like her?
BTM,
EVERY marriage has its problems. It's not so much about "love" and "like" as it is about healthy BOUNDARIES, and making sure YOU are looking out for your own happiness and interests in the marriage.
Because if you don't learn to do that now, in THIS relationship, you will only repeat the same mistakes in your NEXT one.
Puppy
BTM,
EVERY marriage has its problems. It's not so much about "love" and "like" as it is about healthy BOUNDARIES, and making sure YOU are looking out for your own happiness and interests in the marriage.
Because if you don't learn to do that now, in THIS relationship, you will only repeat the same mistakes in your NEXT one.
Puppy
Great Post Puppy.
Journaling....
Things between WAW and I have been very calm the last few days. If I didn't know better, even I would think everything is great.
WAW continues to show signs that her move out is nothing more than that in her mind. Right now in addition to her usual physical issues, she has a very bad flu. Last night she asked me to rub her back and wanted to lie with her head in my lap. I allowed that just long enough for her to enjoy it and then left the room to watch hockey elsewhere in house.
WAW said "after I move out, will you still look after me when I am sick?" I said "no, we will be separated - you can't have the best of both worlds". Later, I relented a bit when she asked again.
I think she is starting to question the validity of moving out, but will be too proud to change her mind since she is this far. This could be a big waste of money in order for she and I to both "feel whole" as she said last night.
I will keep being the nice guy and giving her something to really miss even into December as she "moves out slowly". But, i think she is in for a big surprise in January when I politely request real separation for a while.
I am starting to think my WAW is suffering somewhat from MLC.
This whole thing is becoming less sad for me and almost entertaining.
WAW said "after I move out, will you still look after me when I am sick?" I said "no, we will be separated - you can't have the best of both worlds". Later, I relented a bit when she asked again.
Fail. You needed to stand your ground. She was testing you to see if she could get you to change for her. Remember Cunningham" "If you can't stand up TO her how can you stand up FOR her".
I think she is starting to question the validity of moving out, but will be too proud to change her mind since she is this far. This could be a big waste of money in order for she and I to both "feel whole" as she said last night.
I agree. That's why YOU need to make sure that YOU don't offer her the ability to change her mind. Encourage the move. If you make it too easy she won't respect you. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.
I will keep being the nice guy and giving her something to really miss even into December as she "moves out slowly". But, i think she is in for a big surprise in January when I politely request real separation for a while.
Replace 'nice guy' with 'real man'. Otherwise I agree with this.
I made a lot of these mistakes and learned from them as my divorce progressed. Now it's filed and will be final in a few weeks. It's too late for me, and realistically, she hasn't changed so I would be foolish to put effort into anything except being the man I am meant to be.
Because if you don't learn to do that now, in THIS relationship, you will only repeat the same mistakes in your NEXT one.Puppy
^^ Yep, yep. Uh-huh, uh-huh.
I would really appreciate some feedback from the pros, expecially those who have followed my thread regarding the following:
This could be a long post, so patience please...
As many of you may already know, one thing that has always bothered my WAW is that I am so black and white and she is not. Even now, as we lead up to the day she moves out, she is still very gray about the future of our marriage, the type of realtionship we will have after she moves etc. So...being "gray" would be a 180 for me and would certainly be appreciated by my WAW. That leads me to a couple of questions.....
My company XMAS part is December 5, but I must give notice by November 23 if I will be attending and if I will be bringing a guest. WAW says she will attend if I want her too - even though that is only 4 days after she moves out. I know it would be good dbing to tell her that once she has the keys to her apartment she should be there. But...we have already agreed to her moving out slowly to keep things as comfortable as possible for the family vacation at XMAS time. I aslo know it would be great GAL and dbing in general to tell her I don't want her to go to my company party. But........
Would taking her to the party and letting the move out be slow (maybe even have her sleep in our bedroom) be a major 180 by being gray? WAW still doesn't seem to think that our separation must lead to divorce. She literally is living one day at a time and to quote her "if we wind up together, then we do - if we wind up divorced, then we do". At this point (and it could change) she hasn't ruled out us dating during the separation - or even sex.
Yes, she is cake eating to some extent, but she is also just being her genuine self. Something I often didn't let her do comfortably. Again, this would be a 180 for me. She would certainly see this as loving her unconditionally.
I believe, that if I keep being friendly, polite and remove pressure, but let things be fun when we are together, it will leave the door open to a possibility of rebuilding our relationship over the next year.
We both plan on real separation beginning in January. I need the time to deal with reality and she needs time to heal. But, between now and then I am not sure what to do. I also don't know how long that real separation will last, but will deal with that later.
Your comments and thoughts are appreciated. Do I "hardcore db" and make my WAW only live in her new world (but even that will allow time at house with kids) which will appear to be more of the same black and white to my WAW - or should I be gray and go with the flow and let WAW see that I can be different?
BTM,
You seem to be carefully building and phrasing your entire post to elicit the type of answer you already want to get, and that is "yes, you should be 'gray' (not even sure what that is, to be honest with you) -- go to the party together, be The Nice Guy," etc., etc.
This jumped out of your post at me:
Even now, as we lead up to the day she moves out, she is still very gray about the future of our marriage, the type of realtionship we will have after she moves etc.
and this:
WAW still doesn't seem to think that our separation must lead to divorce. She literally is living one day at a time and to quote her "if we wind up together, then we do - if we wind up divorced, then we do". At this point (and it could change) she hasn't ruled out us dating during the separation - or even sex.
Why is SHE calling all the shots here, about what will and will not be? These are the "crumbs" I was referring to earlier -- you seem content with whatever crumb she throws at you.
Yes, she is cake eating to some extent, but she is also just being her genuine self.
Food for thought:
Is "her genuine self" what BeTheMan needs in order to have a healthy, happy marital relationship? I see you supplicating, and I don't think that's healthy for your OWN self-esteem, and I also don't think it's going to give her what SHE needs, and that is -- as Kettricken posted to you above -- to own her own consequences.
Puppy
Puppy: let my try to explain the gray thing: I have always been the king of person that goes 100% one way - unless I switch to 100% the other way. It's not a great thing in general and has always bothered my wife. She clearlyy tells me now that she wishes I could just not have our relationship defined in any specific way. I suppose she is actually dbing me - she is GAL, living strong without needing me and making a major life change for her. She said yesterday "it's not about our marriage, it's about me instead of you or the kids".
She is absolutely calling the shots for the first time in our life. She is not saying that anything will or won't be a certain way - just that she has not made any final decision on the future, but is doing what she needs for her right now.
Yes, WAW being herself is what I want for us to have a healthy marriage. She has never felt that she could really be her - that I always stifled her and never really liked the real her. Do I like what that means for us right now? - no - but it's reality and I have to deal with it.
Puppy, to be perfectly honest I am afraid that if I don't keep some kind of relationship between us, and have her own her consequences, she just might love her life without me so much, she would completley decide against reconciliation. Again, it's like she's dbing me! The more comfortable she is her new life, the more I want her back. I am truly afraid that if I let her go fully, she will never come back.
But at the same time, I am being honest when I say that not being black and white would be a huge 180 for me and a change that WAW would love to see. She HATES when I am all or nothing.
It's an aspect of my personality that I would like to change no matter what.
So....are you saying that it would be improper dbing to take her to the party? She doesn't really care to go, but simply said she would if I wanted her to. Would it send a strong message about my ability to GAL and move forward by not taking her? I am not sure which I would prefer. At some point, I hope to "date" each other while we are separated and this would be a good start. The final decision in 100% mine, I'm just not sure what will be best for the future.
Puppy: let my try to explain the gray thing: I have always been the king of person that goes 100% one way - unless I switch to 100% the other way. It's not a great thing in general and has always bothered my wife. She clearlyy tells me now that she wishes I could just not have our relationship defined in any specific way.
. . .
So....are you saying that it would be improper dbing to take her to the party?
As for the first part, I think that's a REAL broad brush. Is "as a monogamous, committed husband-and-wife" too constraining a definition for her?
As for the party, she sounds like she's offering to go out of pity for you. I think your response should be "I'll be fine, but thanks. I'm actually looking forward to it."
Puppy
She clearlyy tells me now that she wishes I could just not have our relationship defined in any specific way. I suppose she is actually dbing me - she is GAL, living strong without needing me and making a major life change for her. . . .
She is absolutely calling the shots for the first time in our life. She is not saying that anything will or won't be a certain way - just that she has not made any final decision on the future, but is doing what she needs for her right now.
. . .
You damned right, she is. And it WORKS, too, doesn't it.
Puppy
Puppy, to be perfectly honest I am afraid that if I don't keep some kind of relationship between us, and have her own her consequences, she just might love her life without me so much, she would completley decide against reconciliation. Again, it's like she's dbing me! The more comfortable she is her new life, the more I want her back. I am truly afraid that if I let her go fully, she will never come back.
Ahhh, now we're getting somewhere . . .
BTM there is your problem.. you're afraid. She knows it and is using it to control you. You're still pulling the rope. By your own admission, she is DB'ing you, you know this and still cling to her every action. NOT ATTRACTIVE.
is doing what she needs for her right now
Correction: she's doing what she THINKS she needs to do.
If you want to be gray, here's a suggestion: Reply to the invitation for two attendees. Drop the subject and don't mention it again. If she asks be evasive. Find a female friend to take with you and GO ENJOY YOURSELF. Women are not attracted to men who are wimps. Your black and white is to either go with your wife or not go at all. Gray is to go without her.
Puppy..in responsee to your last 3 posts...
1. Any definition of our marriage is unacceptable to her right now. I like your suggested response. I will go with something like that. I really don't want to attend alone, but I will.
2. Sure does.
3. I never said I wasn't afraid. I live with the fear of us not reconciling every day....and some days I don't hide it well.
BTM there is your problem.. you're afraid. She knows it and is using it to control you. You're still pulling the rope. By your own admission, she is DB'ing you, you know this and still cling to her every action. NOT ATTRACTIVE.
is doing what she needs for her right now
Correction: she's doing what she THINKS she needs to do.
If you want to be gray, here's a suggestion: Reply to the invitation for two attendees. Drop the subject and don't mention it again. If she asks be evasive. Find a female friend to take with you and GO ENJOY YOURSELF. Women are not attracted to men who are wimps. Your black and white is to either go with your wife or not go at all. Gray is to go without her.
I know my fear is my problem. I am a little further than I was a couple months ago, but still not even close to not being scared.
Correction to your correction - she is doing what she feels she needs to do.
It would be gray for me to go without her. Good point. I work at a small business, so taking a female friend would not be a great idea and honestly I wouldn't like that anyway. I will not bring up the subject and when she aks will go with Puppy's response.
Thanks everyone! One issue down - 10 billion to go.
Correction to your correction - she is doing what she feels she needs to do
ROFL. Yeah, I forgot that! Us men
think and women
feel. A very important thing to remember.
Good that you decided to go! One small step in the right direction.
Please be mysterious though and DON'T tell her you're going alone. I don't see anything wrong with replying that two people will be going. Leave it out where she can see it and let her wonder. As for the party, when you get there, there's nothing wrong with saying that something came up and your date couldn't make it. If the invitation asks for the name of the person attending (for seating labels) just write "partner" in there.
There's nothing wrong with shifting some of her attention away from herself and onto you. When the time draws near and she asks you what to wear all you say is, "Um, I haven't decided if I want to go with you yet. If anything changes, I'll let you know."
This way you keep your options open. If she expresses EXTREME interest in going you can always decide to LET her join you. Don't pin your hopes on this and in your mind accept you are going by yourself.
Arrggh!!! The games we have to play to win our loved ones back!
3. I never said I wasn't afraid. I live with the fear of us not reconciling every day....and some days I don't hide it well.
It's entirely OK to be afraid. Terrified, even.
Just not OK to make your DECISIONS based on that fear.
Embrace the fear, lean into it, and call it what it is. And then STICK TO A PREDETERMINED PLAN -- one that is NOT determined with fear in mind, but rather with "What is The Right Thing to Do?" as its foundation.
Then, pray like crazy for COURAGE.
Puppy
I really do no want to go alone, but I will do it and even if I hate evey minute of it, I will tell her otherwise.
There is no actual invitation or reply card. I just have to sign up at work. I will sign up as single, and if I decide to let her go with me, I'm sure it won't be an issue for the company.
I have been doing a horrible job of being myseterious. Instead, I actually discussed the subject with her yesterday! Yes I actually discussed the merits of going alone vs going with her. Some days I really suck at this!
Oh well, let's see if I can do this one thing perfectly from here on. I will not bring it up at all. If she asks, I will say "thanks for offering to go, but I'll be fine and I'm looking forward to it now". I will actually memorize that sentence.
BTM. If you love her that much and she really truely is happy without you. Let her go find this out.
As for the xmas party. Why not just skip it this year. Unless you need it due to sales stuff.
I think the space apart will do both of you a world of good. Your both hurting. First 2 weeks are going to be bad. But after that it gets better and better.
Who knows you may actually begin to heal and truely GAL and improve yourself. Allow your wife the chance to do this as well. Loving detach and be positive about yourself and your life.
I have been doing a horrible job of being myseterious. Instead, I actually discussed the subject with her yesterday! Yes I actually discussed the merits of going alone vs going with her. Some days I really suck at this!
Sounds like you're confusing "being gray" with "being indecisive."
Puppy
Puppy - I have been letting my fear rule my decisions 100%. I have been trying so hard to keep things "nice" leading up to the vacation, that I have made many errors. I posted previously that she asked me if I was going to look after her when she's sick after the move out. At first I did things right from a DB perspective, but then relented a bit.
The whole black and white thing affects how well I DB. It may be that I simply take it too far when I try to keep cb principles in mind. It's so tough, when I know that she may view things as me being black and white and that pushes her away. Even yesterday, she actually said that I am "all over the place and can't stick with my decisions". I know....she is telling me that she wants me to be a confident man.
BTM. If you love her that much and she really truely is happy without you. Let her go find this out.
As for the xmas party. Why not just skip it this year. Unless you need it due to sales stuff.
I think the space apart will do both of you a world of good. Your both hurting. First 2 weeks are going to be bad. But after that it gets better and better.
Who knows you may actually begin to heal and truely GAL and improve yourself. Allow your wife the chance to do this as well. Loving detach and be positive about yourself and your life.
Cutter - I need to go to that party without my WAW. It will do me good. I have to be forced to GAL.
I am hoping that the time apart really will help us both. She has not drank in 4 days, but needs to get that under control. I honestly think she truly does need some time away from me if there is any hope of forgiveness for the times I disrespected her sexually - the worst of which I have told about here, but there were others.
She feels pressured by me when we are together. I did such a crap job of dbing over the last 2 months, that I literally pushed her out the door.
I may always have the fear that we will never put our life together again, but I have to stop allowing that to control my actions.
Puppy - I have been letting my fear rule my decisions 100%. I have been trying so hard to keep things "nice" leading up to the vacation, that I have made many errors. I posted previously that she asked me if I was going to look after her when she's sick after the move out. At first I did things right from a DB perspective, but then relented a bit.
The whole black and white thing affects how well I DB. It may be that I simply take it too far when I try to keep cb principles in mind. It's so tough, when I know that she may view things as me being black and white and that pushes her away. Even yesterday, she actually said that I am "all over the place and can't stick with my decisions". I know....she is telling me that she wants me to be a confident man.
If you haven't already done so, I'd recommend you right two books, right away:
"No More Mr. Nice Guy"
"Hold Onto Your "N.U.T.S."
I have heard those books mentioned here. But have not picked up either one...yet.
Start with NMMNG, and get crackin'!!
They also have a website with a forum, I believe.
I would hardly be described as a "nice guy" by most people or even my myself. But...I have been too nice a guy during these last few critical months and the result is crap, so I may as well read the book. It can't do any harm.
Just read the book. There's a difference between a "nice guy" and a "Nice Guy."
Just read the book. There's a difference between a "nice guy" and a "Nice Guy."
Ohhhhhh.
WAW and I are still sleeping naked in the same bed and will most likely do so right up until the day she moves out. This morning she did not get up as soon as her alarm went off. I said "would you like some?" - which she knows means a spooning cuddle. She said "sure" and we cuddled for a few minutes.
At this point, with the separation a definite thing, is that wrong from dbing point of view? Again, please consider the whole black and white thing. I know it's letting her cake eat, but since we have not ruled out dating etc during separation, I think it's good in some ways to act "normal".
Obviously, I am fully aware that WAW may simply be playing nice leading up to the family vacation at XMAS, and that she may change completely afterward, but I am not going to have a possibility affect my actions now. We both expect real separation in January, but for how long, I don't know.
So..please chime in on the cuddle thing....and on this....what about sex before the separation? We briefly discussed how it would be nice for the memory of our last sex to not be the last time when we were stoned and it wasn't a great idea. Is it ok to have one final "no strings" encounter just in case it is our last time ever?
BTM,
Once again, you seem to be carefully building and phrasing your entire post to elicit the type of answer you already want to get.
Have you even READ DivorceBusting or Divorce Remedy yet? If you had, you would know that this is INCREDIBLY "pursuing" (or what I would call "needy/grabby"), which only makes a WAS feel pressured and run away even faster.
And yes, you're letting her cake-eat, but then again you already knew that.
Puppy
Do you *really* think sex with a WAS that is about to move out would have "no strings" attached from an emotional standpoint?
As I see it you are giving her warmth and comfort and support and essentially validating her decision to move out in a few short weeks. Is that really the message you want to send?
If she is moving out in a few weeks then mentally (for you) you should act like she is already gone. Sleeping naked in the same bed w/the woman that is LEAVING YOU is sort of strange, no?
IMO all you are doing is letting her know it is okay. She will get fawned on and coddled until she goes. She feels good about that, do you?
PDT - I don't intentionally phrase or build my posts - at least not consciously
Yes, I have read both. Several times.
What I don't get is how at this point anything can make her run away faster - it's done. She's moving out December 1st and has signed a one year lease. It's all done, but the actual physical move. If you mean, it makes her more sure and makes her want to get out faster, than why does she happily accept the offer?
I might be all wrong here...but in the last 2 weeks while she is here, shouldn't I be giving her something to miss? I know...I know...a confident, decisive man. But in addition to that?
If I am all wrong, please tell me. I obviously really sucked at dbing this time around. Although, I honestly believe there was nothing I could do to prevent the separation this time. WAW was 100% convinced she needed it and that if she stayed it would only be a matter of time before our marriage was 100% done. At least, with time apart, she thinks there is a tiny possibility of reconciliation.
I am fully aware that I am letting her cake eat. I just think it is somewhat necessary to keep things as normal as possible leading to the vacation. Whether it's wrong or right to go at all is immaterial now - we are going and I want to make it as enjoyable as possible for everyone.
The cake eating will stop in January. I promise. I am trying to limit it now.
What about the sex thing? If she initiates? What about cuddling etc, if she initiates?
I really hate to tell you this but most WAS that move out will tell you its the only way to save the marriage. If they stay it will be over but if they move out there is still a chance. Its their way of leaving as the "good person". Hey, look at me, I want this to work out so *I* will leave, aren't I a hero?
Its their easy escape. The tell the LBS what they want to hear to get out. My H told me he knew he owed it to himself and to our marriage to move out so we could date and get some space. Yes, he wanted space - to screw his OW.
Almost a year later my H admitted to me he moved out under totally false pretenses. He said he felt that was the easiest way as he knew moving out would hurt me so he just said he wanted us to date and all that. LOL!
The WAS will say just about anything you want to hear when they move out so they look like the "good guy" that is trying *everything* to work on the marriage. Funny thing is, the things they *should* be trying (counseling, improving communication, setting healthy boundaries) aren't options. Nope, moving out is the *only* way to go.
OK BTM, let me ask you a question:
Why would you want to sleep naked and even contemplate sex with a person who has accused you of rape and sexual abuse?
Change your habits! If you're worried about her missing you... let her start missing you NOW. She's already out the door emotionally. Cut her off completely because you're not doing yourself or her any favors.
With respect to sleeping: Go and sleep somewhere else. Stay away from her. Give her the space she feels she needs. Right now you're clinging to her like a baby. Live up to your nickname and "Be The Man" not the needy boy.
Sleeping naked in the same bed w/the woman that is LEAVING YOU is sort of strange, no?
Glad it wasn't just me.
If I am all wrong, please tell me. . . .
I am fully aware that I am letting her cake eat. I just think it is somewhat necessary to keep things as normal as possible leading to the vacation. Whether it's wrong or right to go at all is immaterial now - we are going and I want to make it as enjoyable as possible for everyone.
The cake eating will stop in January. I promise. I am trying to limit it now.
So whether it's right or wrong is immaterial now, but you want us to take our valuable time to tell you if it's right or wrong, so you can just go ahead and do what you want to do anyway? Is that about right? You can do what you want to do (which you're obviously going to do anyway). But if it were me, I'd be spending my last days with my wife trying to display the strongest, most confident, most desirable man I could possibly put forward. Not a weak, "gee-I-need-a-cuddle" guy.
I know you're hurting, BTM, but going all "melty man" on her is NOT going to be effective. It may make YOU feel better, in the SHORT run, but it's NOT the way to conduct yourself moving forward.
Puppy
Puppy - I actually have been quite strong, confident when around WAW and overall feeling much better. I have seen a difference in how she reacts too. I have not been "melty man" in front of her - this morning's cuddle is the only time I have been that way at all recently - and that's why I came here and noted it.
I'll stop the cuddle stuff - but gotta be honest and say that if she initiates sex, I doubt I am going to be able to turn her down. She's hot!
I can only comment on how you come across in your posts.
I can only comment on how you come across in your posts.
Of course. And I bring my needy, questioning, scared, worried self here - in order to not show that to my WAW.
Something I forgot to mention - this morning I was talking with D18 about her plans for school etc in the next year or so. Since our separation and homes etc will affect that, all that was part of the conversation. She said WAW is going to give her a key to WAW's apartment, so she can be there when she wants. I never thought there was OM involved, but that makes it even less likely. At one point I said, you know I am staying in the house for at least the next year, so you can come and go between the 2 places as you please - she is an adult (almost) after all. Then I said, and after that year, we will see. She responded with "you and mom might be back together by then - mom says it's up to you".
Puppy - I know you call them crumbs, but the more things like this I hear, the more hope it gives me. I will do my best not to live the next year, only in the hope of reconciliation, but it's far better than no hope at all.
I do believe in hope; I just don't believe in being content with crumbs.
I'm more of a "Stockdale Paradox" guy -- that, to me, balances the two outlooks perfectly.
Puppy
[quote=Puppy Dog Tails]
Something I forgot to mention - this morning I was talking with D18 about her plans for school etc in the next year or so. Since our separation and homes etc will affect that, all that was part of the conversation. She said WAW is going to give her a key to WAW's apartment, so she can be there when she wants. I never thought there was OM involved, but that makes it even less likely.
Or, your wife figures she'll have everyone "normalized" to her new arrangement by then.
[quote=Puppy Dog Tails]
Something I forgot to mention - this morning I was talking with D18 about her plans for school etc in the next year or so. Since our separation and homes etc will affect that, all that was part of the conversation. She said WAW is going to give her a key to WAW's apartment, so she can be there when she wants. I never thought there was OM involved, but that makes it even less likely.
Or, your wife figures she'll have everyone "normalized" to her new arrangement by then.
???????????????????????????
I'm really missing the point on that one. Do you mean: WAW believes D will think it's "normal" for WAW to be with another man? or ????
"Normalization" refers to the process a wayward spouse will go thru in order to get their circle of family and friends to accept their affair partner. It is VERY important to them that everyone do so, and it's typically part of their fantasy that "everyone will be okay," and "will all get along."
Rarely does a wayward spouse envision any push-back, or at least they vastly underestimate it.
It's also VERY much typical "script" for a cheating spouse to deny the existence of an affair partner, until some time later, AFTER the marriage is either divorced or formally separated. Then, "all of a sudden," the wayward spouse will announce to their family that "I've just met someone."
I would be stunned if there is not OM in the picture here. But the immediate point I was making was, the offer to let your daughter have a key to her place at some point down the road (this would be next year, correct?) wouldn't be an indicator to you EITHER WAY. Because someone fogged out from an affair wouldn't be thinking that far down the road, or -- if they were -- they'd be thinking optimistically, as in "Oh, my daughter will have come to accept my boyfriend by then."
Your situation may be different, naturally.
Puppy
No Puppy - I believe WAW intends to give daughter a key soon after moving into her apartment. So...that's why I said it makes me more certain that there isn't OM involved now.
Today is my 41st birthday. I have to share what my WAW wrote in the birthday card she left for me. Please note: WAW believes I need help to deal with some issues, most important of which would be my sexual ones - remember it was a final violation of her that made her finally decide to leave. I know the things I have done are not "normal", but I don't believe I am truly sick, but still I am working on this aspect of my life with my counselor and on my own.
Anyway...The front of the card has a picture of a lion on it and just says "I love you" - inside it says "...and I'm not lion". That's no big deal, but here is what WAW wrote inside:
"I know times are rough. I don't have the answers you are looking for. I'm sorry. Only time will tell. Be better...not for me...for you. All my love. WAW"
That makes me angry. Who basically tells someone there is something wrong with them in a birthday card? And what's the point of the "only time will tell" crap?
And while the "not for me...but for you" is right out of dbing, for someone not aware isn't that like saying "your are defective - get better - but I won't be around to see it"?
Am I wrong here? Is the card mean in some ways? Feels like even in the card, she is trying to justify her walking away - because I need to be better.
I won't say anything about the card to WAW. Or should I - if she asks? I am purposely working all day and won't even see her until tonight. At least when she makes me angry this way, I feel like I will miss her less!
On a positive note: I did get a nice card from my kids!!
I tend to agree with you.
You should probably just blow it off, but knowing me, I probably wouldn't. I'd probably send her something snarky like "Thanks for recognizing my birthday. The "GET HELP!" card was a really nice touch."
But that's just me.
Puppy
Happy Birthday! I would focus on the card and love from your kids, and totally ignore her.
Oh, and "HAPPY BIRTHDAY!" by the way. Do something NICE for yourself today. Full-body massage. A nice lunch. Something.
I would also ignore the card. The WAS will think and say what they are going to think and say and there isn't a thing you can do about it.
I am unsure of your past problems with your W but if you are getting help now that is what you need to focus on. For you and your children and NOT her for the time being.
I tend to agree with you.
You should probably just blow it off, but knowing me, I probably wouldn't. I'd probably send her something snarky like "Thanks for recognizing my birthday. The "GET HELP!" card was a really nice touch."
But that's just me.
Puppy
I am just going to ignore it - or at least not dignify it with a response. I'm fairly sure she will say something. My response will be "thanks for recognizing the day - the card would have meant more without a comment about me having to get better" - and then walk away.
I find that if I plan my comments in advance (I have the XMAS psrty one memorized) I do much better.
If you feel you *must* say something about her comments I would turn it back on her. W: Thanks for recognizing my birthday and I appreciate the encouragement and support you offered as I continue to work on myself.
Since it seems she does not want to encourage or support you as you travel the road to self betterment she might refrain from making further comments that you ONLY have a POSITIVE reaction to.
"thanks for recognizing the day - the card would have meant more without a comment about me having to get better" - and then walk away.
She controls you with these comments, that's why you feel compelled to respond. She knows you are guilt ridden, you think something is wrong with you (otherwise why do you bring it up in
every post?) and therefore you think something is wrong with you. How about you just say thanks and ignore her comment. Or validate it (doesn't mean you agree) and it sounds a whole lot less snarky.
"thanks for the card. I read your note, I understand why you would feel that way."
Then turn and walk away. You acknowledged the card, you let her know you "see" her and no loss of self. Do you want to be right or do the right thing?
Happy 41st BTM,
I agree with Puppy. Take a time-out and SPOIL yourself rotten!
Do something NICE for yourself today. Full-body massage. A nice lunch.
And DON'T stop there! Call up some buddies and go out to celebrate. Switch off your phone so you won't be "interrupted."
And as a final "MY DAY" gift to yourself, check into a nice hotel and spend the night. NO CALLING HER. No explanations necessary. Just have a good time. It's YOUR day.
Oh... be mysterious, but... behave.
One more thing, lay off the booze. It just gets you down.
I know I have issues that caused me to do things that resulted in the separation. But...I still don't think I am sick, and I still don't think WAW should bring it up in a birthday card. I wouldn't give her a card that said "learn to be better with money - for you"
What I want to do is the right thing - but not be disrespected.
Maybe, saying anything is just giving her the power of knowing that she upset me and was able to toy with my emotions. I like to think PDT really knows his stuff, but maybe ignoring it completely shows more strentgh? Still, I think for me, I need to say something, but not in a weak way.
Happy Birthday- I hope you enjoy your day!
I know the things I have done are not "normal", but I don't believe I am truly sick, but still I am working on this aspect of my life with my counselor and on my own.
But what does your counselor think- Do you need something more than what you're doing now or are you on the right path? I love it when the spouse thinks they know what's good for you or what you need better than the trained professional does. Been there, have the t-shirt.
Take care-
Bunny
Nice ideas Gnosis - but none of that really possible since I am working 9am-8pm. And then, I would like to see my kids tonight, so will simply go home after work. Tomorrow I am going to go out and buy some new clothes - something to wear to my company XMAS party that I have chosen not to take WAW to.
Bunny - My counselor thinks I am certainly on the right path and more importantly, I know I am. I am still dealing with the guilt (obviously!!!), but I am dealing with that aspect of my growth very well otherwise.
[quote][/quote]Maybe, saying anything is just giving her the power of knowing that she upset me and was able to toy with my emotions. I like to think PDT really knows his stuff, but maybe ignoring it completely shows more strentgh?
I think so. Why confirm to her that she can upset you?
I still don't think WAW should bring it up in a birthday card.
because you are still trying to control her. she can think, say, act, feel, anyway she wants. You are not responsible for her, she is.
You might not know you are doing it but that is controlling. Kinda like how Puppy points out you try to phrase your posts to get the answer you want. it's OK for adults to not agree.
I know I have issues that caused me to do things that resulted in the separation. But...I still don't think I am sick, and I still don't think WAW should bring it up in a birthday card. I wouldn't give her a card that said "learn to be better with money - for you"
What I want to do is the right thing - but not be disrespected.
Maybe, saying anything is just giving her the power of knowing that she upset me and was able to toy with my emotions. I like to think PDT really knows his stuff, but maybe ignoring it completely shows more strentgh? Still, I think for me, I need to say something, but not in a weak way.
Remember, I was being snarky, and said it WOULD be best to ignore it. I just said that I probably couldn't let it pass -- that's a weakness of mine, and there's no need for YOU to repeat it!
I like Coach's response the best.
Puppy
Maybe I should get advice every time before I speak to WAW...
We have spoke a couple times today regarding a problem with her car - I work at a dealerhip. The card has not come up at all. But...if it does I will go with "Thanks for the cards" - and then only if she asks what I thought of her comments will I say "I can see why you would write that". I kinda like this planning my comments thing - I seem to need it!
I did text both kids to say thanks and that I love them and really, that's the important thing.
No Puppy - I believe WAW intends to give daughter a key soon after moving into her apartment. So...that's why I said it makes me more certain that there isn't OM involved now.
Because you've been so certain of yourself and everything you've done up to this point against our better judgment ;-)
Are you really certain?
- sorry, yes some sarcasm but it was a 2x4.
You don't know, and the move to be free of you in her own place will invite other freedoms if they don't already exist and in the same breath, other "freedoms" may have inspired this change on her part to move out.
You can keep assuming it's all about what you did to her to violate her but I could be wrong but it doesn't sound like you raped her plus the fact that you have slept in the same bed together and she sleeps naked on occasion or regularly doesn't suggest someone who is afraid of you sexually along with that little weed inspired frolick into the sexual woods doesn't suggest someone who is afraid of you sexually or is dealing with issues of you violating her.
Just my 0.02 cents
Pretty sure that was more like a dime, Rob.
But what a good ten cents it was!!
Puppy
Believe me Rob - all the sexual stuff is confusing to me too. She may just be using that night as her excuse to get out of a marriage that she has been very unhappy in for "four years". Legally, it was rape. You don't need insertion of penis for rape.
But the fact that we had sex since, and almost a couple of other times and that she sleeps naked and showers in front of me, sure makes me wonder just how scared she is.
Am I certain there is no OM? Not 100%. But my gut still doesn't say so. If there is, that would actually make all this easier to understand and after lying about it would be a deal breaker. Until I have proof otherwise, nothing I can do.
Today is my 41st birthday. I have to share what my WAW wrote in the birthday card she left for me. Please note: WAW believes I need help to deal with some issues, most important of which would be my sexual ones - remember it was a final violation of her that made her finally decide to leave. I know the things I have done are not "normal", but I don't believe I am truly sick, but still I am working on this aspect of my life with my counselor and on my own.
Anyway...The front of the card has a picture of a lion on it and just says "I love you" - inside it says "...and I'm not lion". That's no big deal, but here is what WAW wrote inside:
"I know times are rough. I don't have the answers you are looking for. I'm sorry. Only time will tell. Be better...not for me...for you. All my love. WAW"
That makes me angry. Who basically tells someone there is something wrong with them in a birthday card? And what's the point of the "only time will tell" crap?
And while the "not for me...but for you" is right out of dbing, for someone not aware isn't that like saying "your are defective - get better - but I won't be around to see it"?
Am I wrong here? Is the card mean in some ways? Feels like even in the card, she is trying to justify her walking away - because I need to be better.
I won't say anything about the card to WAW. Or should I - if she asks? I am purposely working all day and won't even see her until tonight. At least when she makes me angry this way, I feel like I will miss her less!
On a positive note: I did get a nice card from my kids!!
Well if you want my opinion on the card,
turf it.
And put it in a trashbin with no lid on it that is easily viewable.
IMHO, you don't write that kind of crap in a card, you say happy birthday, hope your day is great, wish you another XX number of years, you know the usual birthday routine.
You don't offer personalized therapy in a birthday card.
CRAP as in CRAP BEHAVIOR (I did that for you puppy )
"I know times are rough. I don't have the answers you are looking for. I'm sorry. Only time will tell. Be better...not for me...for you. All my love. WAW"Maybe i'm mind reading (forgive me, I'm employing the detached WAS mentality lately and it works so well), but that card basically says something entirely different, here is my interpretation:
"poor guy, I know you've been trying hard lately, being extra nice, smiling all the time, doing your best around the house, helping out, being supportive, you didn't even cancel the trip hoping that maybe it would show me how much you love me. I know that part already though, I'm sorry though, I don't feel that way about you anymore poor boy but I would like you to hold on because it kind of boosts my ego a bit with all this power & control you've handed over to me, I threw in the phrase only time will tell, just to continue stringing you along, my little puppy dog so that you can hope in vein that this will turn around some day, you're really a nice guy, I hope you get over this/us one day..."
How did that feel reading that?
Remember WAS mentality?
Hello?! Anyone home?
She's rewriting history to suit her new reality, resentment breeds entitlement and she resents you for the man you turned into and now she's getting ready for her new single life because she feels entitled to it and she will rewrite history alot more than this to accomplish that end goal.
Detach, let her go and let it be.
However if you want to do yourself a favor, don't live in limbo, if you are hurting now, you don't know the pain you will be feeling months from now holding on the way you are (ie. I'm sure there is no OM in the picture).
Have you guys talked legal separation/divorce yet?
Or does she plan on taking care of that when it suits her?
And if she does that, does it suit you to wait until she's ready?
You aren't my puppet, I don't pull your strings so I can't make you do or say anything but sometimes it is so frustrating to read what you post, I can tell you're in pain, you're angry, you miss your wife, you wish you could turn this around, you feel helpless, out of control, you have no control, everything is happening around you by itself as if you don't exist.
And in that last sentence lies the partial secret to your dilemna.
You do exist.
Act as if you do exist.
Detach, move on, date others.
You know on another thread in this forum, Kalni was giving SP some heck for not doing certain things, ie. detach. He has one of the more popular threads on this site but when I read what she said it really made me think about you and quite a few others. You want results, EXIST as an individual. Detach from this situation, hard as it may seem but just do it.
She recapped her situation in one of the more recent posts on SP's thread. They separated, I think possibly he moved out, he had admitted to an affair but told her it was over, she db'ed her ass off, no results, she detached, started dating, even fell in love with another man during this process and do you know what happened at that point..... husband all of a sudden is interested again and against her better judgment, she let get go of the new person she was seeing to reconcile with him but she referred to it as a fake reconciliation because it only lasted 10 months and WAH was cake eating the whole time because she discovered that he was still having an affair. She detached seriously this last time, really appeared to be moving on and you do this by ACTUALLY moving on with your life, what happens, WAH is back in the picture and apparently she can sense that he is into this process of wanting to be with her now but she won't give it to him easily, he has to build trust with her and to do that she needs to keep him at a distance and make him work for it, if it's too easy, he'll just slip into his old routine and F!@#$% up all over again.
Detach.
Let go of the outcome.
Move on with your life.
People only realize the value of something when it's gone.
Your conquered, you want her badly and she can smell it and it doesn't smell good. You are no challenge, you pursue even when you say you don't pursue.
Be civil but detach.
No more wanting to be friends, just continue with your life.
No more emails, no more phone calls, no more texts, no more notes, no more cards, no more trips, no more gifts, no more favors, no more anything.
If she really wants to live a life without you, let her and that means removing yourself from her life.
Respect yourself enough to let go of the people that don't value you or the relationship they have with you.
Believe me Rob - all the sexual stuff is confusing to me too. She may just be using that night as her excuse to get out of a marriage that she has been very unhappy in for "four years". Legally, it was rape. You don't need insertion of penis for rape.
But the fact that we had sex since, and almost a couple of other times and that she sleeps naked and showers in front of me, sure makes me wonder just how scared she is.
Am I certain there is no OM? Not 100%. But my gut still doesn't say so. If there is, that would actually make all this easier to understand and after lying about it would be a deal breaker. Until I have proof otherwise, nothing I can do.
bro I'm going to be honest with you.
Men will sometimes treat other women like a piece of meat.
Husbands will do that to their wives too.
It happens in a relationship and regularly, if you didn't ever grope your wife without first offering a hug every now & then you would be the exception not the rule (and yes i'm generalizing), men in general like to touch their wives, the sexual relationship is part of marriage.
What did you do that was so bad? Did you touch her inappropriately while she was sleeping? Seriously you have me confused. Did you service yourself while lying next to her sleeping body - maybe she's mad you didn't wake her and ask her to join in? Seriously I don't know.
She isn't scared.
You don't have to wonder.
I'm letting you know.
So you can remove this idea from your head.
You've had sex since then,
you sleep together in the same bed, sometimes naked,
she showers in front of you and all at the same time she is telling you she doesn't want to be with you anymore.
That is called teasing, some painful teasing at that.
She is giving you plain view of the fruit that she doesn't want to share with you anymore.
A person who is scared wouldn't do that.
These are the actions of someone in complete control of a relationship and having alot of fun with it.
The "weed" episode pretty much proves that,
drugs & alcohol don't make you do things you would never normally do, they give you confidence to do things and remove inhibitions to do things that you really wanted to do but were holding out for some reason.
As far as your gut, if you really listened to your gut instead of trying to mask the feelings that your gut is trying to communicate to you with your flawed logic, you might get somewhere eventually.
Pretty sure that was more like a dime, Rob.
But what a good ten cents it was!!
Puppy
LOL!
Puppy you are a good man, enjoy that 10cents, go to the video arcade, remember to bring back the change though ;-)
RobX - I appreciate your honesty. The bottom line is that I really don't know what all the sexual stuff means to her - if she's not being honest, I can't force her too. If she's simply using that as her justification to finally leave a marriage she is unhappy in, then she is. I can't beat the truth out of her!
There were several times in our relationship where I treated her like meat - and way beyond just groping. Her sexual abuse as a child made all this worse. She asked several times for me not to do it again, and I did repeatedly. I still don't want to be graphic, but during the final violation it lasted a long time and was brutal. It was legally and morally rape. Trust me. She was sore for days after.
My gut still tells me there is no OM. I almost hope there is. There is little snooping I can do now. She has her own cell and laptop paid for by her company. Both have been been locked for years- thanks to my previous snooping.
Really, at this point, until there is proof or she decides to come clean, I have lots of other things to focus on and can't waste time or energy on the unknown.
RobX - I am detaching. Really. Getting pissed at the card was a step for me. Think about it - a few weeks ago I would have focused on the "only time will tell" part and saw hope in that. I would have hoped for anything from her today - and now I don't.
A while ago I was dreading the move out day, now I am almost looking forward to it. To the tease being gone.
I have no interest in dating right now, but am moving on in other ways. I have not started legal stuff and I have my reasons why. I am not an idiot. I would say divorce is a 90% chance and I will come out of it fine.
Every day I get a little stronger and a little less worried and a little less concerned about busting my divorce. I am becoming whole as my wife says.
Betheman, I understand about the card from your waw. My MIL gave me a birthday card like that just 3 weeks after the bomb. A day after I mentioned my wifes EA friend to my MIL she sent me a birthday card that told me to find a therapist because she could not be my therapist. Nice huh? I trashed that card when I decided my MIL could not be objective about her own daughters infidelity. Happy birthday man!
I just tore the card into little pieces and threw it in the garbage can under my desk. That felt good.
Pretty sure that was more like a dime, Rob.
But what a good ten cents it was!!
Puppy
LOL!
Puppy you are a good man, enjoy that 10cents, go to the video arcade, remember to bring back the change though ;-)
"There IS no change!"
-- Bill Cosby
OK, I'm sorry, but I'm going to be blunt here.
What exactly did you do to your wife that was so bad that she was "sore for days"? Look- I've been there, and while it's uncomfortable and not fun, I've never been "sore for days". The only reason I can see her sticking around if she was so offended by what you did is if you were heaping emotional abuse on top of that, and that can lead to some powerful brainwashing. In my case, I was already conditioned to keep my mouth shut and just take it. (That is, unless he wanted it opened. Whole lot of other stuff going on too in our M) I am just now getting ready to leave my H and, believe me, sexual issues are a large part of my reasons for leaving. I put up with it for several years because it took me that long to figure out that what he was doing to me was crap. You need to forgive yourself and move on- You're getting yourself together which is a lot more than I can say for my H. You know, I owe you some thanks, because after reading your posts, I am finally starting to feel a little angry at H- I've been having a hard time finding it.
Bunny
OK, I'm sorry, but I'm going to be blunt here.
What exactly did you do to your wife that was so bad that she was "sore for days"? Look- I've been there, and while it's uncomfortable and not fun, I've never been "sore for days". The only reason I can see her sticking around if she was so offended by what you did is if you were heaping emotional abuse on top of that, and that can lead to some powerful brainwashing. In my case, I was already conditioned to keep my mouth shut and just take it. (That is, unless he wanted it opened. Whole lot of other stuff going on too in our M) I am just now getting ready to leave my H and, believe me, sexual issues are a large part of my reasons for leaving. I put up with it for several years because it took me that long to figure out that what he was doing to me was crap. You need to forgive yourself and move on- You're getting yourself together which is a lot more than I can say for my H. You know, I owe you some thanks, because after reading your posts, I am finally starting to feel a little angry at H- I've been having a hard time finding it.
Bunny
While I am working on forgiving myself and I am almost there, I think it's good for you to put your perspective on the way I treated my wife. She suffered sexual abuse as a child and anything that makes her feel used brings that up. On more than one occasion, I treated her like meat. The incident that keeps coming up occured while she was virtually comatose from sleeping pills and alcohol. Again - it was awful!!! I am ashamed of my actions and feel true guilt for it. But...at the same time, I need to move forward.
My actions should not be dismissed as something minor. If I was more graphic, I think it would clarify some things, but it just isn't required. I am not sure why she stuck around as long as she did. She is dealing with many issues right now (lots of physical illness issues, dying grandmother, crazy work stress) and is literally not herself.
The reality is that at this point our marriage is over. I am basically at the point of doing damage control and trying to have the best final outcome for me, our kids and my WAW. That's it at this point.
Some day there could be a reconciliation - but not until tons of issues would be dealt with. Right now, it's a matter of living one day at a time and not being as depressed, scared and worried as I was a few weeks ago.
She truly has my sympathies for being an abuse survivor, but it's up to her to get herself some help so that she can enjoy an adult, intimate relationship without making her H for like a rapist and forcing him to treat her like a china doll. I'm not downplaying what you did if it was so inappropriate, but I see you tried to make amends and get your act together and that's all you can do. I commend you for that so stop beating yourself up. If she wants to hold that against you, that's her choice, but she needs to get herself some help to deal with her past or she will these issues over and over again- you can't do that for her.
She truly has my sympathies for being an abuse survivor, but it's up to her to get herself some help so that she can enjoy an adult, intimate relationship without making her H for like a rapist and forcing him to treat her like a china doll. I'm not downplaying what you did if it was so inappropriate, but I see you tried to make amends and get your act together and that's all you can do. I commend you for that so stop beating yourself up. If she wants to hold that against you, that's her choice, but she needs to get herself some help to deal with her past or she will these issues over and over again- you can't do that for her.
Maybe I confused things. My WAW is actually quite well adjusted sexually and has dealt well with her past abuse. We often had great sex with lots of variety etc. She is a phenomenal lover and everyone considers her one of the sexiest people they know.
The only time(s) it reminded her was when I touched her or myself while she was sleeping. She was very clear that this one thing was not ok, and I did not listen.
The final time was the worst ever. I think she sees my actions as about more than just a sexual things - it makes her feel disrepsected and uncared for - that I put my basic needs ahead of her emotional needs.
I will say it again, while there are many reasons that led to the end of our marriage, this is a very important one. As for Rob X's question of why she is ok with some sexual things now - who knows? How can I understand what she really feels? She is an alien after all.
I am no longer beating myself up over it, but at the same time need to recognize it for what it is, to ensure I never treat anyone that way again.
The only time(s) it reminded her was when I touched her or myself while she was sleeping.
Do you understand why this is a huge memory trigger for your wife?
This is making more sense now, but I would be still be concerned about if she still has residual issues dealing with her abuse that need to be addressed. She is escaping into drugs and alcohol so frequently and heavily for some reason and that could very well be it.
The only time(s) it reminded her was when I touched her or myself while she was sleeping.
Do you understand why this is a huge memory trigger for your wife?
I do now. 100%.
This is making more sense now, but I would be still be concerned about if she still has residual issues dealing with her abuse that need to be addressed. She is escaping into drugs and alcohol so frequently and heavily for some reason and that could very well be it.
Yes, Bunny, she has real reasons to be hurt.
I think the alcohol and (rare) drug use are about escaping from right now, not the past. Note: other than one glass of wine she has not drank in 4-5 days.
WAW just texted me: "just had my review. guess what? another pay cut. HMFL".
I responded with "great timing".
I would have not done that. BTM. Tit for TAT does not work. Sometimes its better to just remain quiet.
I didn't mean it in a "tit for tat" kind of way. Just that timing sucks.
As for her hating her ****king life - it's her life and her choices. It's no longer my job to make everything better. I won't add to her problems, but that's it.
Well, don't you think she knows the timing sucks regarding her pay cut? "Great timing" sounds negative and almost like a blame. How could you have answered in a detached but positive way?
Gee W, sorry to hear that, I guess the economy is really hard on everybody right now.
And, had you answered in a more positive fashion it could have been the perfect segway to open up the money/budget talk again.
EX: Gee W, that is too bad. It's always difficult to take a pay cut but I guess the silver lining is it will motivate us to create a workable budget for the short term that we both are comfortable with.
Well, don't you think she knows the timing sucks regarding her pay cut? "Great timing" sounds negative and almost like a blame. How could you have answered in a detached but positive way?
Gee W, sorry to hear that, I guess the economy is really hard on everybody right now.
And, had you answered in a more positive fashion it could have been the perfect segway to open up the money/budget talk again.
EX: Gee W, that is too bad. It's always difficult to take a pay cut but I guess the silver lining is it will motivate us to create a workable budget for the short term that we both are comfortable with.
I am sure she does know. But, what do you think she was looking for when she texted me? What am I going to do for her to make it any better? She can't continue to shun me and say I need help etc, and then expect me to be there only when she needs me. I am a package deal. You can't just have the parts you like when you want them.
My WAW has no concept of budgeting and her choice to move out is costing us money and I am done thinking about it. I will continue to be the responsible one and keep paying our household bills and concerned about the future, while she will only worry about here and now. I am done talking about money and budgets.
I didnt take her text as asking for help - it was more informational IMO.
Her desire to move out should not be costing you money. If she wants to be on her own let her fund it.
I didnt take her text as asking for help - it was more informational IMO.
Her desire to move out should not be costing you money. If she wants to be on her own let her fund it.
She is funding it. But that's money not going to our usual household expenses. So...in the long run - it's costing me half.
Well, then its good you are seeking legal counsel so you can get all that sorted out on who will be responsible for what.
Just remember - in most cases a divorce costs both parties "half" and once your W sees the reality of it all with her pay cut then her rose colored glasses might begin to slip off.
Actually, I don't have legal counsel yet - but I have my reasons why.
All she can see right now, is that for the next year she can have her space and freedom and know that she still has access to our house and to her kids. She's eating a great big cake. It means my kids are as great as they could be, so I am kinda ok with it.
But in January, her rose colored glasses will start to slip.
Actually, I don't have legal counsel yet - but I have my reasons why.
All she can see right now, is that for the next year she can have her space and freedom and know that she still has access to our house and to her kids. She's eating a great big cake. It means my kids are as great as they could be, so I am kinda ok with it.
But in January, her rose colored glasses will start to slip.
My last post for the evening, just about to take off.
Maybe you just enjoy us giving you 2x4's and possibly that's an indication of a bigger problem, you don't listen or having problem listening.
She can have her space & freedom, but once she moves out, why would you allow her access to the house?
Is it because of the kids?
I'm assuming she'll have a space for them there, didn't you mention providing kids with the keys?
Is she providing you with the keys to her new place?
Do you get any of what we mention about setting boundaries with regards to respectful behavior?
Once she leaves, regardless of title on the property of not, she is moved out. You're not running a hotel, you are entitled to privacy as well and not assuming that right to privacy just leaves you open to other boundaries that she can push past and take advantage of.
Once she leaves, you should change the locks.
I wouldn't allow her free pass to come & go as she wants - what would that teach her? That you enjoy the status quo of living in limbo?
You will no doubt make another excuse as to why you can't do that and I will just shake my head and consider that maybe you just like to post on here and that you're really not looking for possible solutions to your problems.
Once she moves out, you are encouraged to reclaim your individuality which includes your living space.
Flip it around, she will enjoy her living space, individuality & privacy, you won't be coming & going as you please to her place (or will you?) - if you can't show the same thing at your end, what is left of you to promote interest, curiousity, mystery, etc. etc. etc.
Still sounding like the same ol' indy, regardless of the name change. Time to wake up a bit.
This is all counter-intuitive and that's the beauty of it, whenever you think of doing something, stop, take a minute and think of the opposite:
- call her frequently > stop calling her
- email/text her > stop emailing>texting
- gift buying/card buying > no more gift or card buying
- favors > no more favors
- being available for her whenever she needs you > making yourself scarce ie. GAL: getting a life
- give her the open book on your life so that she knows exactly everything you do at every moment and allow her to come & go as she pleases > be mysterious and tell her to "please respect my living space as my own now and call before you come and I will let you know if it's ok if you come over on that specific day"
Indy.... you're killing me, you're really, really killing me!
LOL! Have a good night.
BTM as long as she is on the title you cannot change the locks on her. So do not do that. You can ask for the keys in a polite way. But if she keeps them she keeps them.
Thats the law here.
But a good boundary to set in place is that she asks permission to come over and gives the reason why. If you say no. Then she cannot come over.
BTM as long as she is on the title you cannot change the locks on her. So do not do that. You can ask for the keys in a polite way. But if she keeps them she keeps them. Thats the law here.
Here,too.
But a good boundary to set in place is that she asks permission to come over and gives the reason why. If you say no. Then she cannot come over.
We did that too. And to give credit where credit is due, it was her idea/boundary and she sticks to it.
But in January, her rose colored glasses will start to slip.
BTM you got to stop thinking like this. She is your wife who is hurting as well. Its an easy trap to fall into. You thinking that life is better with you than without you.
Let her find out what is good for her life herself.
You gotta let go to change these negative thoughts.
BTM as long as she is on the title you cannot change the locks on her. So do not do that. You can ask for the keys in a polite way. But if she keeps them she keeps them.
Thats the law here.
But a good boundary to set in place is that she asks permission to come over and gives the reason why. If you say no. Then she cannot come over.
Never say never.
If he pursues a legal separation agreement (which might not be a bad idea, it can stop any debt she accumulates during waywardness from becoming his debt), he can easily provision that she will not access his home without his consent, regardless if the title is under both names, he can set it up so that she can't access his home without his permission. She may be entitled to half of the home's value but he is entitled to his privacy. He can also stipulate in the agreement that if the mortgage on the home is under both names, he can still legally require her to pay whatever is required - if she is listed as a co-borrower on the mortgage, the responsibility still exists regardless if she lives there or not. You know if he was to lose his job and couldn't make any payments on that mortgage, the bank would be looking for her to do what she can, she is employed.
As for the original inquiry, when spouses legally separate they can live separately without worrying that the other spouse is going to pop in unannounced.
We have made no specfic arrangements regarding how much access she will have to the house. Since I will have no access to her apartment, it is only reasonable and fair that she have limited access to the house. We will have that discussion and I will set boundaries that I am comfortable with.
Earlier I agreed that she would move out slowly through December It was probably a bad decision, but I will honor it, rather than my usual flip-flopping - a huge 180 for me. I have stated clearly that she will not be sleeping here effective Dec 1.
January 1 (yes...after the vacation) I will want real separation between WAW and I and our discussion regarding boundaries will look after that.
Robx - I am very slowly getting there. I know how much I frustrate you, but at least I am making a little progress and I appreciate that you and the other pros never completely give up on me.
I hope during all of this that you are getting out every now & then and taking your mind off all of this hoopla, if you just focus on this situation your head will spin right off your shoulders.
You're allowed to take a break, hang out with friends, do something fun, blow some steam off at the gym, buy yourself a gift (you're worth it and start getting into that mindset again of placing value on your life).
I bust on you because I want you to develop a thick skin, I won't you to become stronger & independant and more confident - you can do it.
I am trying to do more than work and just focus on this. So far, I am not doing so well at that. I am a homebody and quite a loner. It does feel like I am going to explode, but each day I get a little calmer. I can tell by reading over my journal.
I am working out with my S16 and that may be the only time I forget this for even a minute. I intended to go shopping for something to wear to my company XMAS party today, but likely will not have time. I will do it though. Friday I am meeting an old friend for a beer after work - we'll wind up talking about my situation, but it's better than being alone.
I just picked up "No more Mr. Nice Guy" and will read that.
Being 100% honest, the reason I can't get my dbing together consistently is because I believe my WAW when she makes it sound that if I can just let things be what they are, give her time and space, time for her to heal and forgive me,there is a hope of us being back together. She has incredible control over me - yet she always felt I was controlling - or at least tried to be.
Obviously my methods have failed miserably, but I still can't fully embrace the db philosophy. I keep trying to find a happy median that will work in our situation. Yet, when I read the thread about none of us being unique, it makes so much sense to me.
I know that if I could not be so black and white, and stop flip-flopping and just be consistent in my thoughts and actions, it would make a huge impact on my WAW. Some days I have the balls to stand up to her and then the next time I don't. Proper dbign requires what would appear to her as being black and white and that pushes her away. I have to find a way to just do it, and not worry about the outcome. I still don't have that - all I worry about is the outcome. Just being honest.
I always thought I was a confident man, and most people who know me would think so. But since so very few people really know me (maybe only my WAW) they don't see the real me. I am only now recognizing how much I have lost "me" over the years and just how much I am dependant on my WAW, while she is quite independant.
I have to admit that every day, I think about one year from now and so badly hope that my WAW and I will be together. I know that will never happen unless I become a strong, confident, attractive man.
I waiver on this daily, but I think her moving out may actually help me to get over her and stop thinking there will be a quick fix. That's why I need to limit contact between us after the separation - otherwise every time I see, touch or smell her, I will fall in love all over again and need her.
I have so far to go, it actually scares me.
BTM,
One thing I've learned to understand about women, is that they often (usually? always?) DON'T want what they CLAIM to want, when it comes to a man and how he acts.
A woman will claim to want you to subserve to all kinds of things, but once you do so, she'll think "Well THAT ain't very attractive! Why didn't you stand up to me more?!"
Seriously, study the female species (oh, and us males have a whole DIFFERENT set of hang-ups and quirks, don't get me wrong). They like to TEST, and they expect you to PASS those tests, and to -- sometimes (not always) -- "call them on their bullshit." It makes them feel safe, and secure, and loved, knowing that their man can stand up for himself.
I know that sounds like chauvinist bullchit, but it's true.
A strong man knows when to apologize when he's wrong, and he knows how to take a stand when he's right. Women respect BOTH of those traits, believe me.
Puppy
BTM you should read this thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...;gonew=1#UNREADIts a path you seem to want to head down. Repeat the same mistakes.
The day I really stand up to my WAW we should all check for pigs with wings....
S16 and I saw new family doctor today. WAW and D18 saw him last week. Amazing dcotor who actually cares, which is very rare around here.
He put me on medication to raise seratonin levels and also gave me perscription for sleeping pills. I suspect I will need them after the move out. I will of course, keep this to myself. WAW does not need to know how much pain I am in - or that my (hopefully) more positive attitude is due in part to medication.
Another thing I will keep to myself, but S16 may mention to WAW:
The receptionist figured a family would all have the same address and some documents for me showed my WAW new address. Rememeber - she didn't want me to know where it is - supposedly because she is afraid I will stalk and spy on her (and yes Robx - maybe because it's going to be her love nest). If WAW does find out and brings it up, does anyone have an idea for a response?
One that shows I don't care that I know - cuz why should it matter if I am moving forward in my life.
The receptionist figured a family would all have the same address and some documents for me showed my WAW new address. Rememeber - she didn't want me to know where it is - supposedly because she is afraid I will stalk and spy on her (and yes Robx - maybe because it's going to be her love nest). If WAW does find out and brings it up, does anyone have an idea for a response?
Response? Response to WHAT? I'm not seeing a question here. Response to "How did you find out?"
A: "The nurse told me."
What am I missing???
Puppy
BTM not everything is a dance. Honesty needs to come from one of ya. Why not you ? Just skip saying all the dance steps.
The receptionist figured a family would all have the same address and some documents for me showed my WAW new address. Rememeber - she didn't want me to know where it is - supposedly because she is afraid I will stalk and spy on her (and yes Robx - maybe because it's going to be her love nest). If WAW does find out and brings it up, does anyone have an idea for a response?
Response? Response to WHAT? I'm not seeing a question here. Response to "How did you find out?"
A: "The nurse told me."
What am I missing???
Puppy
Sorry, Puppy. I meant response as to what I am going to do with that information. I suppose the truth - nothing. I don't care to know where her non family home is. Let's forget I asked.
I started reading No More Mr. Nice Guy. If they ever want to make a poster, I will pose for it. I have literally never read anything that describes me so well. It may be too late to help me save my marriage, but it sure is going to help save me!
It's incredible!!!!A while ago, I mentioned that WAW grandmother is ill. She has now been given days to live. I suppose best way to support WAW during this time is the way I would with a good friend.
BTM.
Not suppose. Do whats right. You need to start gaining some confidence in your abilities as a human being. Validate. Unconditional love. Listen. Nothing more.
Do not use this in anyway to get at your wife or to forward you passive aggressive behaviour.
All your thoughts are of a passive aggressive negative nature.
If I was you I would talk about this at your support groups and here. This is one area that I think you should really work on.
BTM.
Not suppose. Do whats right. You need to start gaining some confidence in your abilities as a human being. Validate. Unconditional love. Listen. Nothing more.
Do not use this in anyway to get at your wife or to forward you passive aggressive behaviour.
All your thoughts are of a passive aggressive negative nature.
If I was you I would talk about this at your support groups and here. This is one area that I think you should really work on.
I hear the term "passive/agreesive" tossed about a lot. I don't know what it really means. Yet another thing to research....
Journalling....
Went out for a beer after work with an old friend. GAL is tough for me, but when I manage to make myself do something I enjoy it.
Must mention again just how much "No More Mr, Nice Guy" is the perfect book for me. I wish I had read it years ago. It's helping me to find me. I know that sounds corny, but I lost myself over the last 20 years. I became a husband, father, and employee and that's it.
Lately, I am not nearly as scared of the final outcome as I was. I am finally starting to feel "normal". I know things will be tough again after the move out and then again after the XMAS vacation, but I am getting better prepared every day.
As for busting my divorce, since there is no mention of that and no legal stuff, we are not about to get divorced. So, to some extent I have not failed.
My WAW has signed a one year lease, and in that time we will find out what will happen to our marriage. I would say the chance of reconciliation is low, but not impossible.
It's Sunday morning and WAW was just packing up some stuff for her move out on December 1st. I stayed in our bedroom doing other things while she cleaned out drawers etc. When I moved some of my stuff to a just emptied drawer, she said "you could wait until I move". I removed a few things that I never liked in the room to make it my own space. WAW didn't like that.
This morning I also clarified what I expect as far as house access after her move out. I was actually a lot more lenient that I could/should have been, but when I told WAW that I don't want her in the house anytime I am around, don't want her to come over and clean the house and make dinner on Sundays, she really got upset. Then I told her I was definitely not taking her to my company XMAS party and that I did not want to stay in the same room as her on vacation. She got even more angry. She even said "I want to hit you now".
When I said that I'm going to need a few months or so with no contact between she and I, in order to move forward and get over her, WAW looked like she was going to kill me.
For the first time, I clearly stated boundaries and WAW really didn't like it very much. It may make the upcoming week a little rough and vacation may not be what she dreamed of, but I think a dose of reality was good for her. It also made me fully comprehend the reality that she will be gone in one week.
She said something like "you are pushing us to divorce". Later I said, "if I thought you had any intention of some day reconciling, I may be a little different, but I don't want to g through all the hurt again", so I need to do this like removing a band aid and get it over and move on.
Now, I have to stay firm and not backpedal and actually live what I said. It will be tough when deep inside all I really want is to have her here with me. I am at the most critical stage for my sanity and well being and need to be stronger than I have at any point see I returned here 3 months ago.
Congratulations on setting up your boundaries. It's about time!
For the first time, I clearly stated boundaries and WAW really didn't like it very much. It may make the upcoming week a little rough and vacation may not be what she dreamed of, but I think a dose of reality was good for her.
Her anger is a GOOD sign. It means what you said to her is registering. She is starting to see someone who is finally standing up for his rights.
She said something like "you are pushing us to divorce".
WAW TEST: "Let's see how serious he is about this." Don't believe a word of it. She's trying to whip you back into her program.
Now, I have to stay firm and not backpedal and actually live what I said.
Write this down on a 3x5 card and repeat it to yourself every five minutes of the day. Memorize it and LIVE it. If you don't you may as well chain yourself to the railing of a sinking ship.
Expect a constant barrage of tests on your boundaries.
My comments on FutureUnkown's thread will give you an idea. Read my next reply after that too. Check them out. Spend some time reading the last few pages of his situation to see how similar your behavior has been to his.
So, how does it feel to finally BE THE MAN?
Honestly, it's a awesome and a little scary. I know it's supposed to be counter intuitive and I know it's supposed to work. But...putting everything on the line was tough.
A couple of times she mentioned what is good for the kids and said I was being selfish. I know the kids will be fine. They are 18 and 16 and she can still see them as much as she likes. We just won't be playing family.
Friday, I decided to tell her that I accidentally found out the location of her apartment, and yesterday she said something about how I would snoop and spy. I said "I want nothing to do with your non family home". That one really hit home and she said it was mean. I apologized and said I didn't intend to be mean (but I did intend to get her attention).
At one point today, when she questioned my comments I said "I have nothing to lose" and she responded with "you have have everything to lose". Nice threat. During that conversation this morning, she again alluded to the fact that to her moving out doesn't mean the marriage is over. I really wonder what she actually thinks. I know it doesn't matter, but still, I would love to know what's going on in that head of hers.
WAW will be spending most of the day with her dying grandmother, so when she comes home I will be comforting, but not clingy. Tonight we will be having our final Sunday dinner together as a family and I made sure to mention that it would be just that. Again, a puposeful shot of reality for her.
I would love a barrage of tests on my boundaries. That would mean she is the pursuer.
The hardest part for me between now and moving day will be to not bring up the R in any way. That is my major weak spot. I always want to temperature check. I finally made clear comments on all that really needs to be discussed, now I need to SHUT UP.
I hope Puppy reads this - reading No More Mr Nice Guy helped give me the balls to finally stand up to my WAW today. I also thought what would Puppy/Robx/Coach tell me to say right now?
Folks...support me like never before this coming week and do not let me backslide. It's too late to stop the move, but that doesn't mean this is over.
Honestly, it's a awesome and a little scary. I know it's supposed to be counter intuitive and I know it's supposed to work.
It IS counter intuitive and is DOES work.
A couple of times she mentioned what is good for the kids and said I was being selfish. I know the kids will be fine. They are 18 and 16 and she can still see them as much as she likes. We just won't be playing family.
Excellent! Keep this frame of mind.
I said "I want nothing to do with your non family home". That one really hit home and she said it was mean. I apologized and said I didn't intend to be mean (but I did intend to get her attention).
Good job (incl. apologizing)
At one point today, when she questioned my comments I said "I have nothing to lose" and she responded with "you have have everything to lose". Nice threat.
That's the attitude to have. Congratulations on seeing it for what it was.
During that conversation this morning, she again alluded to the fact that to her moving out doesn't mean the marriage is over. Maybe I should not have said the following, but I did. I said "if I knew that you wanted to work towards reconciliation, it would be different for me - but you won't be clear about it".
OK job. You're showing a bit of wavering there that you are still available. Strengthen this boundary. In Future's post I wrote the following:
W, I'd like to make myself very clear one point in this process. In my eyes separation is the equivalent of divorce. For me there is no difference. The minute these papers are signed we are DONE... FOR GOOD. I do not consider you a friend. There will be no friendship. You are the remnants of a distasteful business transaction to me. I will not be there for you and do not want to know you. For the kids sake and with their best interests in mind I will treat you with the same politeness and courtesy I reserve for a stranger. Good luck to you.
Take this and rework it to your situation.
I would love a barrage of tests on my boundaries. That would mean she is the pursuer.
Oh they're coming... The problem is most of the time we don't realize that they were tests until after they happened.
The hardest part for me between now and moving day will be to not bring up the R in any way. That is my major weak spot. I always want to temperature check.
You know your weaknesses. Take the appropriate measures. Avoid being alone with her. Go out. I don't remember how your GAL stuff is going, but it's time to turn it up a notch or fake it.
Leave the house dressed to the nine's. Get new outfits... ask the chick's at the clothing stores to help you pick them out. New haircut, clean shaven, smart clothing. Strut your stuff. Come home LATE... and don't call to say you're going to be late. If you don't have anyone to go out with go to a coffee shop and take a book with you... stay there and read it. Don't come home drunk, but by a quart of Jack Daniels. Before you walk into the door take a swig. Flop into bed... and make sure she gets the whiff of alcohol on your breath.
I finally made clear comments on all that really needs to be discussed, now I need to SHUT UP.
YES.
Folks...support me like never before this coming week and do not let me backslide.
I'm not Puppy/Robx/Coach but I'll be here
for as long as you carry on being a man. Prepare yourself for a few 2x4's.
So.... here's an idea for you... while you wait for the big guns to show up. Go through their posts and make notes on what they have said to others. Write them down and run through the scenarios in your head. This way when the situation arises you are better PREPARED.
Overall, good job.
You exhibited pass-agressive behavior by moving the stuff in the drawer while she was there. And again when you admit you doing things to get a reaction, instead of saying what is on your mind you do something childish and to punish her.
Your wife tells you what she is thinking and you wonder "I wish I knew what she is thinking." Has she ever told you she feels "invisible" or "unheard."
You did so-so on the boundaries, you basically told her what she was allowed to do. Not how to present bundaries.
I don't think you can handle a vacation together.
F!@#$% GNOSIS!!!
LOL!
It was like reading something I would post but someone else did it.
LOL! Too funny!!!
BTM I hope you seriously read everything GNOSIS has taken the time to post for you here about a dozen dozen times until you get it in your head.
...During that conversation this morning, she again alluded to the fact that to her moving out doesn't mean the marriage is over. Maybe I should not have said the following, but I did. I said "if I knew that you wanted to work towards reconciliation, it would be different for me - but you won't be clear about it".
Maybe the next time she brings this up, you can "ALLUDE" to her that her moving out means that the marriage is over to you. If she valued it, she wouldn't be moving out on you & the marriage - she is sending a clear message but it's wrapped up in her WAS script.
"No BTM, the marriage isn't over, I'm just moving to a new place without you because it's healthy for the marriage for me to have my own space that you weren't supposed to know about just in case I want to have over some male companions which will also help me realize my marriage to you isn't over..."
My response to her when she said that BS would have been, "why do you assume I'm going to wait for you while you get your act together?! Is my life less valuable than yours? While you have fun with whoever at your new singles pad I should wait home like a big dummy hoping you'll come back one day? Sorry to burst your bubble, I'm not that big dummy and I consider this marriage over when you've walked out that door, I'm not waiting for you, My life is TOO VALUABLE to waste."
And as for using up those empty drawers and her telling you to wait until she's moved out... UMMMM.... why? If they're empty and she has taken her stuff out of them, I'm assuming they're available? She's testing you, all of these things she does are tests, seriously at this point, you can consider every second of interaction with her to be a test to see if you're a weak boy or a STRONG MAN. Put stuff in those empty drawers, if she makes noise about it, just tell her, "Look you emptied them, I'm assuming empty drawers are then available to be used for something other than storing dust, why should I wait till you move out to use them?" Let her come up with reasons why you should wait to use those empty drawers, she can justify that excuse, you don't have to come up with excuses to use an empty drawer - do you see the logic in that? She made you question using an empty drawer and that doesn't make sense, you should question why the drawer should remain empty. "Why should it be empty - that doesn't make any sense?" and give her a weird look like she's clueless, shake your head as in she doesn't make any sense.
Well "indy" or should i say "BTM", it only took you 48 pages of your thread to finally start taking the advice we gave you, that book must have clinched it for you.
Thank GOD for small favors,
masculinity looks good on you bro,
I hope you wear it for the rest of your life,
The women in your life will appreciate it ;-)
You exhibited pass-agressive behavior by moving the stuff in the drawer while she was there. And again when you admit you doing things to get a reaction, instead of saying what is on your mind you do something childish and to punish her.
Your wife tells you what she is thinking and you wonder "I wish I knew what she is thinking." Has she ever told you she feels "invisible" or "unheard."
You did so-so on the boundaries, you basically told her what she was allowed to do. Not how to present bundaries.
I don't think you can handle a vacation together.
Coach it's a drawer, not a savings account.
She emptied it, if he had a legitimate use for it in his own home which she is leaving of her own free will, I'm assuming he's allowed to use it. Based on the entire thread I get the idea that indy/BTM is always questioning what to do around her, should i/shouldn't i, he needs to just start doing instead of worrying about her reaction and always second guessing himself - he'll never gain confidence in his actions if he always has to consider every ramification for whatever he does - when he's around her it seems he worries at every moment that if he does something it make the air move in that specific room. In fact that is part of all of this issue, he holds back fearing her reaction and she knows this, she knows it too well. She's been in control of this relationship for far too long and she doesn't respect him at all. She tells him no sex so the man is naturally starved for sex but she sleeps in the same bed with him naked, I'm sure after she showers she walks around naked in front of him because she knows she looks good and she knows he wants her, she enjoys that control/power and she continues to do it, "look what I have that you can't have anymore", she plans to leave him, she has a new place to live which she wanted to keep secret because she didn't want him there anymore but she still planned on coming to their current home whenever she wanted, her message: I want and will have my privacy so I can do what I want and have space from you and probably seek out male companionship in some form or another without you being around to bother me about it but you aren't entitled to your privacy Indy, I'll come & go whenever I want to check up on you to make sure my good little boy is in his place where I want him to be. She plans to separate from him but she wants to leave him with a little bit of hope to make sure the control is still in place, "just because I'm moving out doesn't mean the marriage is over", well pray tell what does separation mean if it's not a prelude to divorce? I want my space from you, I want my privacy from you, I want to get used to the single life without you and enjoy everything that it offers.
Throughout all of this, she's been sending messages to him, both verbal and non-verbal: I'm in control indy and you aren't, this is all my decision indy and you have no control of this.
When he stops playing by her game book and starts charting his own course, she then notices that he's veering off the allowed predetermined route that she has set up for him. Isn't this part of cognitive dissonance: she has one idea, one plan and she's been holding on to this for so long that it's second nature to her, he now veers off this course, starts showing some thought that doesn't take into account caring about her reaction and it throws her for a loop as in:
"This isn't how I pictured this would go, he was supposed to be home alone after I leave and wallow in self-pity and i'll use him in this state to heal emotionally while he's hurting and this will bump up my self-confidence even more and I'll continue to lose respect for him more & more each & every day because he's still attached to me while i'm detaching from him. Why is he acting like this, why is this working out for him now? He's not sad or angry, he seems content, like this is working out for him now and that's not how i planned any of this to work out - this isn't right?!"
Coach: I agree... all that I wrote is passive-aggressive. He's tried the soft, sensitive guy route and it's gotten him nowhere. P/A is a 180 for him and it's got her to pay attention. This is how it needs to be.
BTM:One thing should be noted. See my signature for how you should be when you're interacting with your wife. Of important note is that in all your communication with her you
REFRAIN FROM GUILTING her. Purposely trying to make her feel sorry, provoke regret or inflict pain on her is PURSUING.. and she will see it for what it is. Women are smarter and more intuitive than us simple men.
robx:LOL, I have the same reactions when I come across your posts too. We've got a similar background and I think we've probably traveled a similar path to get to where we are. If you're on FB look me up by the same name as here... I'm the one whose lost his hair
and is living life to the max.
Thanks for all the feedback folks. I read every one of the posts a couple of times to make sure I am prepared for the few days. Yes, reading the book helped, but also letting go of the fear of the final outcome also helped.
I realize it took me waaaayyy too long to get here, but I finally made it. We all know I have difficulty staying with things for more than a day or two, but now that I have finally come this far, I refuse to slide back.
As for the vacation, I have a new mindset. I am going to a great resort to enjoy the weather etc, with my kids and their mother. That's it.
It's Sunday morning and WAW was just packing up some stuff for her move out on December 1st. I stayed in our bedroom doing other things while she cleaned out drawers etc. When I moved some of my stuff to a just emptied drawer, she said "you could wait until I move". I removed a few things that I never liked in the room to make it my own space. WAW didn't like that.
Were you being efficient (empty drawer, been needing one) or punitive (fine, you empty the drawer, I'll put MY stuff in there. Hrumph!)?
but when I told WAW that I don't want her in the house anytime I am around, don't want her to come over and clean the house and make dinner on Sundays, she really got upset.
Maybe a better point to ponder aloud with her is WHY she would want to clean the house to begin with???? Just tell her you can handle it.
Then I told her I was definitely not taking her to my company XMAS party and that I did not want to stay in the same room as her on vacation. She got even more angry. She even said "I want to hit you now".
Did she ask to go to your xmas party? Or was this more of you punishing? Again, a point to ponder is why she would want to go to your party or your vacation. Are y'all divorcing or what???
She said something like "you are pushing us to divorce". Later I said, "if I thought you had any intention of some day reconciling, I may be a little different, but I don't want to go through all the hurt again", so I need to do this like removing a band aid and get it over and move on.
So she's right? You are pushing toward D? I just have trouble sorting out what you are doing and WHY? Your...boundaries...seem more like one-upmanship to me. You seem like a guy who is done fighting for your M but not done fighting with your W.
It will be tough when deep inside all I really want is to have her here with me. I am at the most critical stage for my sanity and well being and need to be stronger than I have at any point see I returned here 3 months ago.
Try smarter. Strong is for you. Smart is for your M.
Greek
Why does my WAW want to go on vacation, clean the house, make Sunday dinner, go to my XMAS party????
Because she wants the best of both worlds. She wants out, but wants to feel like she hasn't abondoned her kids. She wants to keep her old life waiting on the back burner, just in case her new one isn't what she thought it would be. Because she likes "gray" and not "black and white". Because she is fine living in limbo - because I made it too easy for her to get a nice single woman's apartment and fill it with single woman things. Because even though she rarely eats sweets, she suddenly loves eating cake. Because some day she might love the man I might become and that's a whole lot easier than loving me as I am.
I am not done fighting for my marriage, but I am done fighting for it from a position of total weakness.
BRAVO!!!
I think you qualified for quote of the month on this one!
Seriously this sounds damn impressive,
Now can you back it up.... time will tell ;-)
Because even though she rarely eats sweets, she suddenly loves eating cake. Because some day she might love the man I might become and that's a whole lot easier than loving me as I am.
I am not done fighting for my marriage, but I am done fighting for it from a position of total weakness.
Got no problem with you making her put on the Big Girl Panties. Just letting you know that you kind of come across as "tit for tat, take that."
Greek
Because even though she rarely eats sweets, she suddenly loves eating cake. Because some day she might love the man I might become and that's a whole lot easier than loving me as I am.
I am not done fighting for my marriage, but I am done fighting for it from a position of total weakness.
Got no problem with you making her put on the Big Girl Panties. Just letting you know that you kind of come across as "tit for tat, take that."
Greek
I tend to agree.
I'm all for making a stand. Not a snit.
Puppy
BTM you make it one week. One week. I will drive down and buy you a few beers. And yea read up on passive aggressive behaviours. A great 180 would be to stop doing them.
Guys I think this is the first time that BTM is actually taking a stand, it may sound like tit for tat but he hasn't done any "TAT" up until this point and maybe that's why it seems like that from our perspective.
We've been giving him advice for so long, he's starting to show signs of actually understanding why now, remember this is a learning process for everyone.
And as for the tit for tat discussion, some may be against it but just remember, there is no TAT without TIT - it may help to do this every now & then to show the WAS that there are consequences for certain actions, if they don't ever encounter a barrier when they do something disrespectfully what would cause them to stop?
Thanks Rob for that observation.
Guys I think this is the first time that BTM is actually taking a stand, it may sound like tit for tat but he hasn't done any "TAT" up until this point and maybe that's why it seems like that from our perspective.
We've been giving him advice for so long, he's starting to show signs of actually understanding why now, remember this is a learning process for everyone.
And as for the tit for tat discussion, some may be against it but just remember, there is no TAT without TIT - it may help to do this every now & then to show the WAS that there are consequences for certain actions, if they don't ever encounter a barrier when they do something disrespectfully what would cause them to stop?
Rob,
I would counter with just the opposite. I think the LESS a betrayed spouse has exhibited any strength in the past, the less they really need to do to get their spouse's attention. It is precisely BECAUSE he hasn't been strong, that he doesn't need to be piling on with behaviors that may come across as just plain petty or meanspirited.
But it's a quibble. Overall, I'm liking his strong stance.
Puppy
Sure Rob - you finally give me a postive comment......and then hit me with the last line. It's well deserved though....
This morning as we were getting ready for work, WAW seemed to purposely remain naked more than required. I purposely looked the other way.
Years ago my WAW got me a cell phone and the billing is in her name. This morning I suggested we have it switched into my name, and that I would start paying it. Paying all the cell phone bills was always her duty. I also said that I no longer wanted her to get my cell phone bill, since her knowing who I would be calling makes me feel controlled. The truth is, I really don't care now, but I might some day. And..nothing like creating a little mystery. She of course responded with "you must be calling someone you don't want me to know about". I said "no if it was someone I was already calling, you would have already seen the bill".
That started a brief conversation in which WAW again mentioned being mad and I stayed very calm and said "I can't control how you feel". Just before leaving for work she brought up how she thought we were going to show the kids we can still get along. By that she means my new boundaries of her only being in the house when I am not there, etc. She's sticking with the "best for the kids" thing.
I felt it was important to clarify things, so I called her at work and made sure I kept it very brief. I said "I agree that the kids should see us getting along, but to me getting along means respecting each others needs. While I don't think you leaving is right or good for the kids I am respecting it. Seeing us playing house or you cleaning the house, isn't going to make a difference. In fact, it may be bad for them to not see reality".
Now...RobX....really think before you trash me on the following: I did say that maybe we could have Sunday dinner together as a family, because that really would be good for the kids. Just actual eating of dinner, nothing more. I think that shows I am a little flexible and still care about the kids. And...once a week (and likely not every week) it will give WAW the opportunity to see that I am not dying without her and can see her without going back into puppy dog mode.
And...since S16 and I are still working out together my body is starting to look great. I am dressing better, wearing new cologne, etc. WAW seeing that once a week - and more importantly seeing that with my new positive attitute won't hurt either.
By the way...I feel pretty darn good today.
BTM you make it one week. One week. I will drive down and buy you a few beers. And yea read up on passive aggressive behaviours. A great 180 would be to stop doing them.
You are on. Thanks for the added incentive.
Regarding the paasive,agressive stuff and tit for tat - I may be guilty here and there now, but it's a whole lot better than where I was. There are moments I want to be all about tit for tat, but I hold back. I might get a little win by doing stuff like that, but I am here for a big win, not tiny meaningless ones. I am finally making clear concise comments and am determined to back them up. I am not being mean in any way.
In fact...as I mentioned earlier I work at a car dealership. WAW has a problem with her car and her warranty is gone in a week. I switched cars with her and brought her car in today. Some people say no favours, but I think something like this that really takes no effort (and could save me $$$ in the long run) is fine and it shows that at this moment while WAW is thinking that I am only concerned about me, that I can still be a gentleman.
Because even though she rarely eats sweets, she suddenly loves eating cake. Because some day she might love the man I might become and that's a whole lot easier than loving me as I am.
I am not done fighting for my marriage, but I am done fighting for it from a position of total weakness.
Got no problem with you making her put on the Big Girl Panties. Just letting you know that you kind of come across as "tit for tat, take that."
Greek - I get that, but please note: the things I say here, I would never say anywhere else. This is my safe place to deal with my thoughts and emotions. The more honest I am with you folks, the more you can help me.
Greek
I've got no problem with the Sunday dinner thing as long as you keep the mindset of NOT pursuing her. It's OK to show off what she's missing, but when the sole purpose of the dinner is to show off then that's pursuing.
As for the the car. Yeah, no problem there as long as the motivation is goodwill and not to win her back.
Remember: The changes you are doing are for YOU. To better yourself. They have nothing to do with her.
Yes, the bringing her car in was simply a matter of doing what is right. It takes no effort from me and makes her day easier considering her work load and stress of dying grandmother. Not brining it in would be "tit for tat".
You have my word, Sunday dinner will be dinner only. No pursuing or hanging out while she cooks etc. It will be me having dinner with my kid(s) and their mom.
Greek - I get that, but please note: the things I say here, I would never say anywhere else. This is my safe place to deal with my thoughts and emotions. The more honest I am with you folks, the more you can help me.
And I get that. And the more honest we are with you, the better. So...honestly...things like getting pissy with the drawer space and then INVITING HER FOR SUNDAY DINNER is probably not going to get you anywhere - with her or the R or YOURSELF.
You were so emphatic with me in one of your previous posts that your W now has a big sweet tooth for CAKE - that she's a cake eater. Well she sure is! And you, my brother, are her bakery window! Which cake do you want, wife of BTM? Car solutions? Sunday dinner? Then you call her to explain yourself. She KNOWS you will do that, btw. Is there no end to the cake she will eat? Up to you, pal.
The reason you seem 'tit for tat' to me (woman talking here so you might want to LISTEN for a unique perspective as yet unconsidered on this particular thread) is when she emptied her drawers, there you were making sure she knew that you were going to spread your stuff out and fill those drawers. I think you would have made a stronger impression if you would have just left the room altogether - maybe gone for a jog or started cooking a lunch for yourself - just left her to her walkingawayness. Then, when she is gone, if you need those drawers, fill 'em. B/C you want to. Not to SHOW HER. That's what a confident man would do. Be confident she will notice that you move on in these small ways. Parading them in front of her and THEN INVITING her for family meals is counterproductive.
It might have felt satisfyiing to you to jump right on filling her space right then and there, but I'm thinking she walked away from that episode with "yeah, that's what I expected from him. What a pr!ck."
When I left, Coach stayed out of the way altogether. Then one day I came to pick up D12 and noticed he had moved his drum set in the middle of our livingroom. No ceremony. No exposition. He just did it. He didn't dare me to say anything about it. It was there b/c he wanted it there - it was his deal. Think I noticed? Not just b/c there was a big drum set in the middle of the livingroom but b/c of his confidence to do such a thing for HIMSELF...yeah. I noticed. And I was mad at first b/c I thought "Well that is JUST like him to ruin our livingroom with that junk...but wait...not OUR livingroom...now his livingroom b/c I left." He never had to say a word. He never fired a shot. The point was not lost on me...and he still looked strong, confident and about his buisness as a man.
If he would have texted me and said something like "Oh and I moved the drum set in the livingroom b/c I always wanted it there and now that your sorry behind is out of the way, I did it." I would have rolled my eyes and showed it as evidence to my friends that I was married to a child and they would have agreed.
Just my .02, friend.
Greek
Why does my WAW want to go on vacation, clean the house, make Sunday dinner, go to my XMAS party????
Because she wants to stay married to you. She wants you to improve yourself, she wants to stop being contolled by you, she wants to trust you, she wants you to heal and grow up. She wants you to be the man she sees in you but it is being held back. She doesn't want to hurt you but doesn't know another way. She needs some space herself to grow.
Passive-aggressive behavior is controlling. Sexually abusing your wife after she was abused as a child is a huge hurdle for her. Keep up trying to get your little "wins" and it will reinforce her view of you. To use one of Puppy's fav lines, "Do you want to be right or do the right thing?"
You wife has not filed, has told you and your kids she wants you to change, you have no evidence or believe their is a A going on, and she wants to stay involved in your life. These are her actions. Your wife loves you enough to ask you to get healthy. She not telling you directly, this is a test. How are you going to handle it?
That being said, you need strong boundaries, you need to to prepare for either outcome and this journey is about you. Do the work on yourself for you.
Cheers
Coach and Greek, in all your wisdom, how do you explain this:
This morning as we were getting ready for work, WAW seemed to purposely remain naked more than required.
Why is she doing this?
What should us mere men do to counter it?
Counter what? That she's naked? Or that she "seemed to purposely remain naked more than required"? Who knows what she was doing and why she ran over the clock on birthday suit? Maybe she had to dig a moment longer in the underwear drawer to find the right color - and with BTM's stuff in all her drawers, this could take longer! Kidding!
Assume that her nakedness is not about you or for you. Ignore the naked woman who is walking away from you.
In all my wisdom
Greek
Efxaristo.
Maybe she had to dig a moment longer in the underwear drawer to find the right color - and with BTM's stuff in all her drawers, this could take longer!
ROFL. Let it be known that women have a sense of humor too.
Ignore the naked woman who is walking away from you.
Reminds me of a book I read. The title was based on an African proverb -
Beware the naked man who offers you his shirt.
WAW seemed to purposely remain naked more than required.
If you want to know something then ask. "Wife why do you walk around undressed?"
Otherwise we mind read - she did it on purpose. I will consult the rules on how long someone can remain unclothed to see if it was longer than required.
If it's bothering someone say something and set a boundary. The consequences could work out to be fun if she doesn't comply.
How to handle it:
- hand her a robe
- disregard it
- leave the room
- set the boundary
- join her
- compliment her
- enjoy the view
- turn the A/C down
- stop analyzing every move
- go about you business
If she has been doing this their whole marriage why stress over it?
Why does my WAW want to go on vacation, clean the house, make Sunday dinner, go to my XMAS party????
Because she wants to stay married to you. She wants you to improve yourself, she wants to stop being contolled by you, she wants to trust you, she wants you to heal and grow up. She wants you to be the man she sees in you but it is being held back. She doesn't want to hurt you but doesn't know another way. She needs some space herself to grow.
Passive-aggressive behavior is controlling. Sexually abusing your wife after she was abused as a child is a huge hurdle for her. Keep up trying to get your little "wins" and it will reinforce her view of you. To use one of Puppy's fav lines, "Do you want to be right or do the right thing?"
You wife has not filed, has told you and your kids she wants you to change, you have no evidence or believe their is a A going on, and she wants to stay involved in your life. These are her actions. Your wife loves you enough to ask you to get healthy. She not telling you directly, this is a test. How are you going to handle it?
That being said, you need strong boundaries, you need to to prepare for either outcome and this journey is about you. Do the work on yourself for you.
Cheers
Coach. I could not agree more. I have really listened to what she has said recently and I am almost sure that she does hope for reconcilation some day. That's why has hasn't filed, wants me to keep the house going, etc.
Right now with her medical issues, work stress, dying grandmother and our situation, I honestly don't know how she makes it. I think she sees the move out as one thing she can control.
The biggest thing for her is to trust me and she certainly doesn't now. She hates feeling controlled, and I am trying to stop any controlling behaviour - but I can't help how she feels. That's something she needs to handle.
I am finally becoming
a man. Whether my WAW chooses to be with the man I am or am about to me, is her choice.
WAW seemed to purposely remain naked more than required.
If you want to know something then ask. "Wife why do you walk around undressed?"
Otherwise we mind read - she did it on purpose. I will consult the rules on how long someone can remain unclothed to see if it was longer than required.
If it's bothering someone say something and set a boundary. The consequences could work out to be fun if she doesn't comply.
How to handle it:
- hand her a robe
- disregard it
- leave the room
- set the boundary
- join her
- compliment her
- enjoy the view
- turn the A/C down
- stop analyzing every move
- go about you business
If she has been doing this their whole marriage why stress over it?
Hardly stressing over it. Just thought it was worth mentioning here - and only here. I already said I purposely ignored it by looking the other way.
It may not even have been on purpose - but she knows she is smokin' hot and knows that after 21 years, I still love her body. She really isn't the cruel type, but she just might have been teasing a little.
Anyway...no biggie. Issue over.
Is that not a great thing to know. After 21 years you are still attracted to your wife.
Think about that for a moment.
At this moment in time I really don't want to think about that....
But yes, it is great that after 21 years, I still think she's hot. She is absolute cougar material and is sexier now than she was when I met her at 18 years old.
One week from today, my WAW will do the actual walking.
Feeling very down today and not nearly as strong as yesterday. This rollercoaster sure isn't much fun. Even though I am having a tough day, I will continue to hold my newly formed boundaries and won't show WAW how much I hurt today. I won't see her until after work tonight, and hopefully will be feeling better by then.
This is going to be one very tough week, but I refuse to backslide - Cutter you are buying me a beer!
I hear you. No one said it was going to be easy, but these feelings will pass. Keep busy to distract your thoughts. Keep it up, you're been doing great.
Yep we can meet half way or I am out for a road trip
I've purposely stayed away from the site for a few days. I decided I was thinking and planning too much and not just feeling and living.
Cutter - No need to buy me that beer. I haven't managed to keep up my end of the deal.
I have been too cuddly with WAW and talking too much about future and R. She is still 100% steadfast in her decision to move out, but also seems to think there is definite possibility of reconciliation. She said that up until I said our separation must be leading to divorce, she never thought that. I think she is being honest.
It's been a strange couple of days, as there is a closeness between us that has not been there for quite some time.
Not really sure how I will approach things from here forward, but am getting myself prepared for 4 days from now when my WAW leaves for her apartment.
We are still going on that family trip to Mexico at XMAS time, so I am going to just go with the flow (whatever that means) between now and then to ensure everyone has a good time. In the new year, I will re-examine things.
For now though, I need to try to just relax and stop constantly working on saving my marriage. I am emotionally drained and just need to try to give myself a break from thinking through every action and comment. I need to just be human for a while.
Disappointed my friend. I am getting thirsty. I could smell the hops....
My WAW moves out today.
I will be leaving for work soon, and when I come home she will be gone.
We slept in our/my bed last night and then this morning she got up early and left. We had a very brief cuddle before she got out of bed and few words were exchanged. While to me this is the biggest day of my life, she seems very cold and acts like it's not really the end of our marriage. She even referred to me as a "drama queen" when I said it would likely be the last time in our lives we wake up together, cuddle etc.
While it makes me sad that she cares so little, it also makes me realize it's time to move on with my life. It actually makes me a little angry and I can use that anger today.
The third stage of my life starts today. I am scared and lonely.
Let her go, my wife flat out told me, that she needed to figure herself out before she could do anything about the R, it really hit me, she just wants to be left alone, which I did. Quit being so grabby needy, be the man that knows a woman would be damn lucky to be with you, that is the attitude you need to project.
Burt
lonely with 2 teenagers.
Remember to enforce your boundaries with the house.
Let her go, my wife flat out told me, that she needed to figure herself out before she could do anything about the R, it really hit me, she just wants to be left alone, which I did. Quit being so grabby needy, be the man that knows a woman would be damn lucky to be with you, that is the attitude you need to project.
Burt
You'll survive, BTM. Maybe even thrive.
Embrace the suck.
Puppy
Let her go, my wife flat out told me, that she needed to figure herself out before she could do anything about the R, it really hit me, she just wants to be left alone, which I did. Quit being so grabby needy, be the man that knows a woman would be damn lucky to be with you, that is the attitude you need to project.
Burt
It will actually be easier to let her go now, since I don't have a choice. She doesn't want me anywhere near her apartment, so there won't be any pursuing. I have gotten used to not calling or texting, so no real problem with that etiher.
A one year lease and all new furniture are permanent steps, so she is oviously moving on despite what she says at times. Realizing that makes me know that I have to do the same.
As for projecting that attitude, that's some time away for me. Right now it's just about staying alive. I have lost over 25 pounds that I didn't have to lose. I am eagerly awaiting the Prozac to kick in, but after almost 2 weeks I feel nothing.
Actually glad to be at work today. I am off tomorrow, but have a busy day of errands and chores planned. This isn't going to be easy....
just said a prayer for you man..like burt said be the man you need to be.
it's all about You now....
BTM,
You sound like you may be off-the-charts "Physical Touch" as your LL (love language). No shame in that -- I am, too! I just love skin-on-skin contact, even non-sexually. Backscratches, headscratches, arm rubs -- love it all.
Well, when you're in a D, S or SSM, those opportunities can be few and far between. What I wanted to suggest to you is to look into getting either a full-body massage or a chair massage regularly -- as much as you can afford (1x/week, or 1x every-other week, etc.). Others have posted that it's really helped them.
When I was going thru my sitch, I almost broke down and cried in my car once after getting a frigging HAIRCUT, realizing just how good the shampoo felt, the touch of a woman's hands (yeah yeah, pathetic ain't it?).
Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there for you. Hang in there buddy.
Puppy
lonely with 2 teenagers.
Remember to enforce your boundaries with the house.
It's good I have the kids, but they have their own lives and I need to be careful not to lean on them. I can't use them to replace what I no longer get from my wife.
As for house boundaries, WAW will most likely be at the house on Sunday to bring groceries and maybe make dinner for S16 and she and I. D18 will be at work. I doubt WAW will even want to be around much at all and will also be too busy for this month. I am willing to just let things flow in order to keep things smooth prior to and during the family vacation at XMAS.
But, in January will have to set boundaries that will give me space and time to heal. Really not sure at this point how I will feel then, but will deal with it at that time.
BTM,
You sound like you may be off-the-charts "Physical Touch" as your LL (love language). No shame in that -- I am, too! I just love skin-on-skin contact, even non-sexually. Backscratches, headscratches, arm rubs -- love it all.
Well, when you're in a D, S or SSM, those opportunities can be few and far between. What I wanted to suggest to you is to look into getting either a full-body massage or a chair massage regularly -- as much as you can afford (1x/week, or 1x every-other week, etc.). Others have posted that it's really helped them.
When I was going thru my sitch, I almost broke down and cried in my car once after getting a frigging HAIRCUT, realizing just how good the shampoo felt, the touch of a woman's hands (yeah yeah, pathetic ain't it?).
Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there for you. Hang in there buddy.
Puppy
There is no doubt that my LL is physical touch!!! I have no idea how I am going to live without cuddling, sex etc. I think WAW will still give me hugs when we see each other, but that will likely be it.
Odd thing - this morning has we had a brief naked cuddle before she got out of bed, I said something about it being the last time in our life. She replied with "it's harldy going to be the last time in our life". She then mentioned that we are going on vacation together soon (she still thinks we might share a room)and that's about when she called me a drama queen.
I really can't read what WAW is actually thinking, but her comments really make me wonder. It's almost like she thinks we will still be kinda married and she will just live somewhere else that in her words "is only a few minutes away" and "it's not like I am dropping off the face of the earth".
It's all so confusing....
My WAW moves out today.
I will be leaving for work soon, and when I come home she will be gone.
We slept in our/my bed last night and then this morning she got up early and left. We had a very brief cuddle before she got out of bed and few words were exchanged. While to me this is the biggest day of my life, she seems very cold and acts like it's not really the end of our marriage. She even referred to me as a "drama queen" when I said it would likely be the last time in our lives we wake up together, cuddle etc.
While it makes me sad that she cares so little, it also makes me realize it's time to move on with my life. It actually makes me a little angry and I can use that anger today.
The third stage of my life starts today. I am scared and lonely.
Well change that.
You now have freedom.
You no longer have pressure to be any kind of husband to her, just like she is enjoying not having any pressure to be any kind of wife to you.
As for the comment about not being a "drama queen" from her,
she is enjoying her power in this relationship, do you think she doesn't know how much you want her and want your marriage to work? You've played into her hands so much and the only appeal left in all of this for her is that she still enjoys pulling your strings & controlling you.
Seriously, it was an insensitive thing for her to say but she said it anyways because she knows how you feel, you've been an open book up until this point.
Start living your life.
Start enjoying it.
As for your wife, I'm going to say this again because no doubt I've mentioned this somewhere in your thread or someone else's. Your wife is leaving and you need to be OK with that instead of broken. What I want you to do is grieve the end of this relationship and then MOVE ON. If she ever comes back, make her work for it, don't allow her to easily come back into your life. She is creating havoc in your life, turning your life upside down without any regard for the marriage that she helped create. If your wife is leaving your home to move into her own apartment, it isn't so that she can find herself again. Read between the lines. Would she need another apartment if she were going back to school to get a degree to obtain a new job or figure out a new career path? She only needs an apartment to sleep with another man, just because she doesn't come out & say it, doesn't mean that this isn't a plan that's in place. She is careless (ie. the comment she mentioned this morning) and reckless with what she is doing. She isn't used to having this much choice in her life: staying married, living at home with you and working on creating a great new relationship with you or moving out, experiencing the world and other men. She has alot of options and people who don't know what they want can create alot of pain for the people around them (ie. YOU).
Honestly, grieve for a week and then host a party at your place: guys & girls, have a blast.
Move on with your life.
You want a chance at getting her back, move on with your life as if it's over with her.
The sooner you detach, the sooner that any change that is possible will actually happen.
Chin up bro, you will get over this.
Good post, Rob!
She even referred to me as a "drama queen" when I said it would likely be the last time in our lives we wake up together, cuddle etc.
A one year lease and all new furniture are permanent steps
I am eagerly awaiting the Prozac to kick in, but after almost 2 weeks I feel nothing.
I know you are hurting today so you get a pass. So my early Christmas gift to you is "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman. I promise it will help you - marriage, work, family and life. Go buy it and send me the bill.
Cheers
Rob - I still don't believe there is another man in her life at this point. Although, that would be the one thing that would make her leave her kids. Regardless,there could be at any time. And if a man shows later, I will likely never know when he was first in the picture.
As for the living my life without her, you are correct. It's time to do so. I am not the kind of person to throw a party, but I get the idea. Really, I have no choice but to live without her and I can do that sadly or as happily as possible. Those are my choices.
My marriage ended today, but not my life.
I think you are missing rob's point, the sooner you accept this is over the better chance you have seeing her comeback and you making the choices for a change.
And damn it, why are you not a guy to throw a party, I do not know you, but your attitude makes me think that I do not want to be around you either. On the other hand if I were invited to your party, I would think you would be most rightous! Are you getting any of what these people are saying to you?
Burt
She Moved To Her Apartment - Dec 1 09
Party at BeTheMan's House! Worth the 45 minute wait to get over the Peace Bridge.
Seriously, brother, you can look at this as a blessing or a curse.
If you choose 'curse' then I can almost guarantee a year from now you will still be posting here. Your thread name will be something like: Depressed and Masterbating - 10, and you will be telling us what breakfast cereal you are eating and we'll be telling you the same things we are now. Curse no good for you or us.
Choose Blessing. You can wake up each morning and decide how you will IMPROVE yourself and YOUR LIFE without the stress of your wife, marriage, and those issues. You can wake up each morning and decide how you will IMPROVE yourself and YOUR LIFE with your first cup of coffee. Then go for it. The game has changed. Embrace it.
There is all this talk on this site about outshining the other man. Well in your case there may be no other man. So lucky you simply needs to outshine your wife's perception of the man she remembers you as. She put you in the mirror. Take a good look at yourself (and remember to smile!) and realize what you need to do to become not only the most attractive package available to your wife, but for any woman you so desire.
Remember, the process of Divorce Busting is counter-intutitive. It so happens that often when you set out to be attractive to someone else the end result is you attract interested in your walk away spouse.
She Moved To Her Apartment - Dec 1 09
Party at BeTheMan's House! Worth the 45 minute wait to get over the Peace Bridge.
Seriously, brother, you can look at this as a blessing or a curse.
If you choose 'curse' then I can almost guarantee a year from now you will still be posting here. Your thread name will be something like: Depressed and Masterbating - 10, and you will be telling us what breakfast cereal you are eating and we'll be telling you the same things we are now. Curse no good for you or us.
Choose Blessing. You can wake up each morning and decide how you will IMPROVE yourself and YOUR LIFE without the stress of your wife, marriage, and those issues. You can wake up each morning and decide how you will IMPROVE yourself and YOUR LIFE with your first cup of coffee. Then go for it. The game has changed. Embrace it.
There is all this talk on this site about outshining the other man. Well in your case there may be no other man. So lucky you simply needs to outshine your wife's perception of the man she remembers you as. She put you in the mirror. Take a good look at yourself (and remember to smile!) and realize what you need to do to become not only the most attractive package available to your wife, but for any woman you so desire.
Remember, the process of Divorce Busting is counter-intutitive. It so happens that often when you set out to be attractive to someone else the end result is you attract interested in your walk away spouse.
Rat OWN! Rat own, rat own, rat OWN!!
Journaling..
When I came home from work last night, D18 was crying. She and I had the longest most meaningful conversation we have had in quite some time. I am hoping to get closer to my kids during all this, and last night was a good start.
Both kids were at WAW apartment yesterday. Likely a good thing for them to see it right away. I slept surprisingly well last night (without taking sleeping pill) and woke up today feeling ok.
I have a busy day off planned and have promised myself that I will not make first contact with WAW. I doubt I will hear from her until she is here on Sunday. No real plans as to how to handle that day.
Attempting to "embrace the suck" starting today, and so far - not too bad.
I doubt I will hear from her until she is here on Sunday. No real plans as to how to handle that day.
I am sure you will have to clean after the party on Sat nite. Wake McQueen up off the sofa and get him to help pick up bottles.
get the book yet?
Journaling..
When I came home from work last night, D18 was crying. She and I had the longest most meaningful conversation we have had in quite some time. I am hoping to get closer to my kids during all this, and last night was a good start.
Both kids were at WAW apartment yesterday. Likely a good thing for them to see it right away. I slept surprisingly well last night (without taking sleeping pill) and woke up today feeling ok.
I have a busy day off planned and have promised myself that I will not make first contact with WAW. I doubt I will hear from her until she is here on Sunday. No real plans as to how to handle that day.
Attempting to "embrace the suck" starting today, and so far - not too bad.
You want to start learning how to be a man,
protect your offspring.
Be there for them just like you did,
offer the shoulder to cry on, the hugs that offer strength & security, tell them they can talk to you anytime they need to and let them know that you will always be there for them regardless of this situation and tell them that everything will be ok no matter what happens - give her your guarantee.
Be strong for them, get in the habit of being the best dad there is (and not by spoiling or gift giving), spend time with them, quality time, do things with them when their schedules allow for it(older kids do have lives of their own) and most importantly, you need to start living a great & happy life, kids learn from their parents. If you sit around being depressed about this situation, sad, lethargic, displaying no energy whatsoever, you will teach them to do the same in their own relationship.
You have life inside of you, never forget that.
It's a gift, make use of that gift, don't squander it doing nothing. Be a great person, a happy person, the kind of person that rolls with the punchs, that gives as good as they get and doesn't fold under pressure.
You can do it.
Have some friends over saturday night,
even if it's just some co-workers, spread the word, make it a guy thing, get a pay per view thing happening (mind you I don't think there is a UFC PPV event this saturday, maybe next sat), BYOB and just because others get hammered, enjoy yourself but don't go overboard but definitely have fun.
For years I was invited to these events and I never went and my friends kept skaking their head at me "Robbie, Robbie, Robbie, when are you going to learn?" and it was true. Now you can't keep me away from these events, either attending or hosting them. Booze, food, good times with good friends - that's the start and it will take off from their in other areas but you need to start getting used to living your life.
Your wife moved out, her loss, not yours.
Heh I started watching these in August as well...
Now I attend them all
I doubt I will hear from her until she is here on Sunday. No real plans as to how to handle that day.
I am sure you will have to clean after the party on Sat nite. Wake McQueen up off the sofa and get him to help pick up bottles.
I see McQueen being more passed out in the bathtub, no??
so remind me again what the sundays are for?
Rob and Puppy I could use some help with Wonderful. He's going to push back on the boundary issue.
Journaling..
When I came home from work last night, D18 was crying. She and I had the longest most meaningful conversation we have had in quite some time. I am hoping to get closer to my kids during all this, and last night was a good start.
Both kids were at WAW apartment yesterday. Likely a good thing for them to see it right away. I slept surprisingly well last night (without taking sleeping pill) and woke up today feeling ok.
I have a busy day off planned and have promised myself that I will not make first contact with WAW. I doubt I will hear from her until she is here on Sunday. No real plans as to how to handle that day.
Attempting to "embrace the suck" starting today, and so far - not too bad.
You want to start learning how to be a man,
protect your offspring.
Be there for them just like you did,
offer the shoulder to cry on, the hugs that offer strength & security, tell them they can talk to you anytime they need to and let them know that you will always be there for them regardless of this situation and tell them that everything will be ok no matter what happens - give her your guarantee.
Be strong for them, get in the habit of being the best dad there is (and not by spoiling or gift giving), spend time with them, quality time, do things with them when their schedules allow for it(older kids do have lives of their own) and most importantly, you need to start living a great & happy life, kids learn from their parents. If you sit around being depressed about this situation, sad, lethargic, displaying no energy whatsoever, you will teach them to do the same in their own relationship.
You have life inside of you, never forget that.
It's a gift, make use of that gift, don't squander it doing nothing. Be a great person, a happy person, the kind of person that rolls with the punchs, that gives as good as they get and doesn't fold under pressure.
You can do it.
Rob, you are in an absolute ZONE lately, buddy. Phenomenal, phenomenal post.
Yes, it's a rare sighting of the highly-coveted Puppy's Four Whistles Award.
Puppy
Rob and Puppy I could use some help with Wonderful. He's going to push back on the boundary issue.
To the Bat Cave . . .
(batman music playing the background) LOL!
Journaling..
When I came home from work last night, D18 was crying. She and I had the longest most meaningful conversation we have had in quite some time. I am hoping to get closer to my kids during all this, and last night was a good start.
Both kids were at WAW apartment yesterday. Likely a good thing for them to see it right away. I slept surprisingly well last night (without taking sleeping pill) and woke up today feeling ok.
I have a busy day off planned and have promised myself that I will not make first contact with WAW. I doubt I will hear from her until she is here on Sunday. No real plans as to how to handle that day.
Attempting to "embrace the suck" starting today, and so far - not too bad.
You want to start learning how to be a man,
protect your offspring.
Be there for them just like you did,
offer the shoulder to cry on, the hugs that offer strength & security, tell them they can talk to you anytime they need to and let them know that you will always be there for them regardless of this situation and tell them that everything will be ok no matter what happens - give her your guarantee.
Be strong for them, get in the habit of being the best dad there is (and not by spoiling or gift giving), spend time with them, quality time, do things with them when their schedules allow for it(older kids do have lives of their own) and most importantly, you need to start living a great & happy life, kids learn from their parents. If you sit around being depressed about this situation, sad, lethargic, displaying no energy whatsoever, you will teach them to do the same in their own relationship.
You have life inside of you, never forget that.
It's a gift, make use of that gift, don't squander it doing nothing. Be a great person, a happy person, the kind of person that rolls with the punchs, that gives as good as they get and doesn't fold under pressure.
You can do it.
Rob, you are in an absolute ZONE lately, buddy. Phenomenal, phenomenal post.
Yes, it's a rare sighting of the highly-coveted Puppy's Four Whistles Award.
Puppy
Puppy you're too good to me bro, don't think I don't notice or appreciate it, I do!
Actually doing very well today. I am feeling a sense of relief. The pressure is gone.
Re-arranged my bedroom a little to make it look less empty and will do the same thing with the closet when WAW gets her clothes out.
Will work out with S16 when he comes home from school. I have shown the kids no signs of weakness at all and will not do so in the future.
I have my company XMAS party Saturday night. As I mentioned before, WAW said she would attend with me, but I am going on my own. I'm not a very social person, but it will be a good thing for me to do on my own in the first week.
Actually doing very well today. I am feeling a sense of relief. The pressure is gone.
Re-arranged my bedroom a little to make it look less empty and will do the same thing with the closet when WAW gets her clothes out.
EXCELLENT!
I have my company XMAS party Saturday night. As I mentioned before, WAW said she would attend with me, but I am going on my own. I'm not a very social person, but it will be a good thing for me to do on my own in the first week.
EXCELLENT #2!
Will your wife know any of these people that would be at the party with you? If so, I'd make sure to have a dance (or four), including one slow one with someone else!
Puppy
Our financial agreement includes WAW doing what she has always done - buying groceries etc for the family. So on Sundays, she will be doing that and if things go ok, she will also be making dinner on Sundays as well.
I see no problem with any of that as long as I am not needy, clingy or persuing when she's around the house. There are some people here who would be thrilled to get to the point of there WAS having contact and keeping communication open. No point in making things worse by telling her I want nothing to do with her.
I will see how I feel regarding time with WAW over the next couple weeks and during our vacation and act accordingly.
She knows all of my co-workers, but it's highly unlikely she would come in contact with anyone. I am no where near the stage of dancing with someone else anyway - and don't want to do things just for the sake of dbing. Real changes for me - not just to get my WAW's attention.
She knows all of my co-workers, but it's highly unlikely she would come in contact with anyone. I am no where near the stage of dancing with someone else anyway - and don't want to do things just for the sake of dbing. Real changes for me - not just to get my WAW's attention.
I would think that becoming more outgoing WOULD be a real change for you, just based on what you've written.
Puppy
She knows all of my co-workers, but it's highly unlikely she would come in contact with anyone. I am no where near the stage of dancing with someone else anyway - and don't want to do things just for the sake of dbing. Real changes for me - not just to get my WAW's attention.
I would think that becoming more outgoing WOULD be a real change for you, just based on what you've written.
Puppy
I am outgoing in some ways - I am a Sales Rep ya know. But I am not very social outside work hours. I am making an effort to do more things outside my comfort zone and not just spend all my time at home alone - although I really enjoy being at home. Admittedly, not so much right now, but that will come back with time.
My point was that I want to use this time without my WAW as a time to make changes in me - but only things that I really want to change. Making those real changes is also what my WAW is looking for from me. I am sure that my WAW wants us to reconcile at some point and decided that we need to be apart to do it.
Today, I have become aware that she is right. I'm not sure I should share that with her, but had we stayed together in the same house, those real changes would not have happened - at least on my part. I may feel differently later, but right now it feels like our separation is something I actually needed, but refused to accept.
Again, I should probably keep that information from my WAW.
Our financial agreement includes WAW doing what she has always done - buying groceries etc for the family. So on Sundays, she will be doing that and if things go ok, she will also be making dinner on Sundays as well.
I see no problem with any of that as long as I am not needy, clingy or persuing when she's around the house. There are some people here who would be thrilled to get to the point of there WAS having contact and keeping communication open. No point in making things worse by telling her I want nothing to do with her.
I will see how I feel regarding time with WAW over the next couple weeks and during our vacation and act accordingly.
If I didn't know better, I would say her behavior is possibly coming from feelings of guilt.
BTM. When your out. Spend a night listening to people. Practice your skills.
Our financial agreement includes WAW doing what she has always done - buying groceries etc for the family. So on Sundays, she will be doing that and if things go ok, she will also be making dinner on Sundays as well.
I see no problem with any of that as long as I am not needy, clingy or persuing when she's around the house. There are some people here who would be thrilled to get to the point of there WAS having contact and keeping communication open. No point in making things worse by telling her I want nothing to do with her.
I will see how I feel regarding time with WAW over the next couple weeks and during our vacation and act accordingly.
If I didn't know better, I would say her behavior is possibly coming from feelings of guilt.
I agree. She wants to feel like she hasn't totally abondoned her kids - and she wants them to feel like we are still a family of sorts. Making her feel any more guilty than she already does, is not something I want to do.
Update....
WAW call me early this morning to tell me her grandmother finally lost her battle with cancer. I wish I could be with her to comfort her. This is going to very tough on my D18. My S16 will be less affected. My kids have never dealt with the death of someone that close to them, and having it happen the same week their parents separate is really tough.
I spoke with WAW briefly, talked to my kids about the death and then came in to work. I want to "be there" for my WAW, but I think it's best to let her decide how much she wants from me. I don't want to make her uncomfortable.
This has been a tough week so far, but I am surprised at how well I am handling the separation. The anticipation was worse than the reality so far. Not sure, if it's me or the Prozac kicking in.
Be the rock for your family. If your really worried on how to act around your wife. Tell her that you are there for her in her time of need. Leave it at that and take care of your kids.
Be the rock for your family. If your really worried on how to act around your wife. Tell her that you are there for her in her time of need. Leave it at that and take care of your kids.
Yep -- I agree.
I'm sorry about your kids' grandmother, BTM.
Puppy
Be the rock for your family. If your really worried on how to act around your wife. Tell her that you are there for her in her time of need. Leave it at that and take care of your kids.
Yep -- I agree.
I'm sorry about your kids' grandmother, BTM.
Puppy
Actually, the kids great grandmother and my WAW's grandmother.
I spoke with WAW today and told her that if she doesn't want to spend the night alone in her apartment, she can come back home for a night or two. I hope that's not a bad thing from a dbing point of view.
I think you should have let her in on the stark reality of not having you around at a time like this, there are going to be other times in life that she is going to need you, this is one of them. Sounds harsh, but you have to realize that this has been her decision.
Burt
Sorry for your loss, but I would definitely let her come to you, treat her as a friend by asking if there is anything that you could do for her and let her decide how much she needs you.
Be there for your kids, and yes Prozac helps
Burt
I think you should have let her in on the stark reality of not having you around at a time like this, there are going to be other times in life that she is going to need you, this is one of them. Sounds harsh, but you have to realize that this has been her decision.
Burt
Sorry for your loss, but I would definitely let her come to you, treat her as a friend by asking if there is anything that you could do for her and let her decide how much she needs you.
Be there for your kids, and yes Prozac helps
Burt
This would be a great time to "teach" her what life will be like without me, but I just can't do that to someone I care about. I know it's her choice, but the thought of her getting a call at 1:00am and then being alone until this morning, is just plain sad. I made the offer to have her spend the night(s) at our house and if she chooses to accept, she does. I suppose it's important that it not seem even remotely like I am using this an opportunity to earn brownie points.
As for the Prozac, I am feeling almost normal the last few days and I think it's likely due to it. I am concerned about becoming reliant on it, and getting off it, but that is an issue to deal with later.
I think you should have let her in on the stark reality of not having you around at a time like this, there are going to be other times in life that she is going to need you, this is one of them. Sounds harsh, but you have to realize that this has been her decision.
Burt
Sorry for your loss, but I would definitely let her come to you, treat her as a friend by asking if there is anything that you could do for her and let her decide how much she needs you.
Be there for your kids, and yes Prozac helps
Burt
This would be a great time to "teach" her what life will be like without me, but I just can't do that to someone I care about. I know it's her choice, but the thought of her getting a call at 1:00am and then being alone until this morning, is just plain sad.
Yes, it is, but it would be the path SHE is choosing.
You lost a very valuable opportunity to learn NOT to rescue her from one of the consequences of running away from her family. And for her to feel that, and own it.
Don't worry -- there will be others. But you're going to have to think long and hard about trying to do the "Mr. Nice Guy"/rescuing thing, because that's a fundamental philosophical point, and it's important.
Puppy
You taught her that you will always be there no matter how far aways she is from you. Pretty comforting for her don't you think?
Burt
WAW just called and is going to stay at her apartment tonight. Probably a good thing that she didn't accept the offer to spend the night at "home".
Puppy - It's tough to undo 21 years of being a husband, but you are right - I need to stop rescuing. I could/should have just said "if you need anything, let me know".
You taught her that you will always be there no matter how far aways she is from you. Pretty comforting for her don't you think?
Burt
Yep. Point made.
I doubt I will hear from her until she is here on Sunday. No real plans as to how to handle that day.
I am sure you will have to clean after the party on Sat nite. Wake McQueen up off the sofa and get him to help pick up bottles.
I see McQueen being more passed out in the bathtub, no??
NICE.
I doubt I will hear from her until she is here on Sunday. No real plans as to how to handle that day.
I am sure you will have to clean after the party on Sat nite. Wake McQueen up off the sofa and get him to help pick up bottles.
I see McQueen being more passed out in the bathtub, no??
NICE.
Just put some pants on before you come out though, OK?
Update....
WAW has been gone for almost a week. I am surprised at how well that week has gone. For the most part, I have been feeling much better than I was during the weeks leading up to her moving. I don't know if it's the Prozac or simply that the pressure is gone. Or maybe, the reality simply isn't as bad as I thought it would be.
WAW bought groceries for the kids and I yesterday as per our agreement. She also made dinner for S16 and she and I. My son and I were working out while she made dinner and she left right after eating, so I actually saw her very little. I was polite, but distant.
At one point she said "aren't you going to talk to me?" I had said a few things to her, but didn't feel like being all friendly with the woman who left me less than a week earlier. When she left she asked for a hug and I simply said "no". I have done a good job of moving on, and think hugging her would set me back. I did say thanks for dinner and good bye.
I am going to email her today to request that she removes the final few items from my closet and to get the mail key (she still has it!!).
We will see each other at her Grandmother's funeral on Wednesday, and then breifly next Sunday as well. No dinner together then though, since she has her company XMAS party that day.
It's odd that yesterday, she seemed like a guest at my house. Not my wife. I think that's a good thing...yes?
Its a good thing if you think it is.
Sounds like a pint may be back on the menu.
Just remove the stuff from the closet yourself. And put it in the guest room closet. Keep the good hangers though!
Good luck with week 2
Keep it up, remember this is a long race, just keep it up.
She asked for a hug? I wonder why?lol Be prepared the more you keep on, the more contact she will want,
Burt
BTM,
I just finished reading all of this thread and I must say it has given me inspiration. Our situations are really similar even down to a sick wife. I too have been through DB'ing a couple times and am back her once again. And most importantly I have been terrible about standing up to my wife and being a doormat.
This has given me inspiration to get the "NMMNG" book and start taking back my life.
Again I just want to say thanks. Keep it up.
Lynn
BTM got enough 2x4's to build a house.
BTM I am going to be very honest with you. Week two is going to be tough. If you really think your going to back pedal send me an email and we can talk via the phone if needed. I am here for ya.
It's been a week since WAW did her walking. I am still feeling very calm and collected.
WAW texted me once this week to say she's "shocked by my lack of compassion" since she is dealing with the death of her grandmother this week and I asked her to get her last few things out of my closet. I did not respond in any way.
Today, she called me at work to say that D18 is upset that I am referring to her as my ex-wife. She reminded me that we are still married. Well..in her mind anyway. I said I would be careful not to use that word in front of her. But, that's it.
Tomorrow I will be going to the funeral, but not to WAW father's place after the funeral. I don't consider it my job anymore. I will try to be caring towards my WAW, but have no intention of being the way I usually would - again not my job right now.
Cutter - I am thinking week two may even be easier than week one. But....if I think I am about to lose it, I will be in touch.
Sounds good, and I agree with her, she is not your xwife yet. But she certainly did not like the sound of it. You seem to be getting reaction from her, and that is a good thing.
She may be realizing that you were nice to have around at times like this.
Also, be nice to her, like you would a friend, but do not fall into that carring roll. She chose for you not to be there, not you. I like your plan for the funeral.
Burt
Tomorrow I will be going to the funeral, but not to WAW father's place after the funeral. I don't consider it my job anymore. I will try to be caring towards my WAW, but have no intention of being the way I usually would - again not my job right now.
Do you have "issues" with her family. esp. those that where close with grandma? Do they have "issues" with you?
I went to the funeral yesterday and to the burial site as well. I was surprised by how little I felt for my WAW. Again, it may be the Prozac numbing my feelings overall. WAW initiated hugs a couple of times and I hugged back, but she obviously could tell there was little feeling in it, since she said "can you give me a real hug".
This morning I called WAW to check on her. That's the first time since she left that I contacted her without a reason, other than to see how she is. I don't want her to feel like I have lost all compassion for her.
grandma died you cant act like an a'hole when people are upset over someone dying
I don't think I was acting like one....but called WAW today just in case she was thinking that way. Gotta keep things nice considering the vacation to Mexico is only 10 days away.
WAW called me today to ask a few questions about Christmas and the vacation at that time.
WAW: "Are we buying Christmas presents for each other"
BTM: "No - that doesn't make much sense"
WAW: "Are we going to stay in the same room on vacation?"
BTM: "No - we, well I have made great progress getting used to sleeping alone and that would be a step backwards"
I don't think you can pull off this vacation without harming your efforts. What's the goal of going on the vacation? Tradition, it was already planned, last family vacation don't count in my book.
I liked your responses above. I just don't think the vacation is in anyone's best interests right now.
Good job.
BTM: "No - we, well I have made great progress getting used to sleeping alone and that would be a step backwards"
OK response but Too Much Info. A better answer would have been:
"No. I wouldn't want you to get wrong idea."
Your the MAN remember?
- Men don't talk. We "DO."
- We keep our answers as short as possible.
- Our actions communicate.
On your vacation keep your eyes OFF your W and ON any piece of interesting fluff that passes by. Check them out. You're a MAN and you got needs. When you look at your W you have a critical or bored look on your face. Communicate indirectly that she doesn't "do it" for you anymore. Any outfits she wears you give her a bored look once over and look away.
EDIT: And then watch her start to jump through hoops to get your attention. Keep "running away" to draw her in.
I don't think you can pull off this vacation without harming your efforts. What's the goal of going on the vacation? Tradition, it was already planned, last family vacation don't count in my book.
I liked your responses above. I just don't think the vacation is in anyone's best interests right now.
I agree with Coach. On both counts.
Puppy
Good job.
BTM: "No - we, well I have made great progress getting used to sleeping alone and that would be a step backwards"
OK response but Too Much Info. A better answer would have been:
"No. I wouldn't want you to get wrong idea."
Your the MAN remember?
- Men don't talk. We "DO."
- We keep our answers as short as possible.
- Our actions communicate.
On your vacation keep your eyes OFF your W and ON any piece of interesting fluff that passes by. Check them out. You're a MAN and you got needs. When you look at your W you have a critical or bored look on your face. Communicate indirectly that she doesn't "do it" for you anymore. Any outfits she wears you give her a bored look once over and look away.
EDIT: And then watch her start to jump through hoops to get your attention. Keep "running away" to draw her in.
I do like your response better than mine, but I think mine was ok too.
I have mentioned before that my WAW is totally hot. She always dresses to show while we are on vacation. I will be sure to not let her catch me looking. I won't go so far as to look critical, but I will look uninterested. And yes, I will make sure she "catches" me looking at other women.
I don't think you can pull off this vacation without harming your efforts. What's the goal of going on the vacation? Tradition, it was already planned, last family vacation don't count in my book.
I liked your responses above. I just don't think the vacation is in anyone's best interests right now.
I agree with Coach. On both counts.
Puppy
I have the whole vacation thing all worked out in my mind. I am going to have a great week in the sun away from the snow here. I think this just might be the perfect opportunity to show my WAW just how much I have moved on.
OK then. Sounds like you have everything under control.
In a passive aggressive way.
BTM. Dude you need to make sure you go on vacation. If you get bitter once. Walk away. Play some beach volleyball or something. Actually play in as many activities as you can. Have a vacation. And drag your son into it. Swim. Laze about. Read your self help books.
Then when you get all R'd up. Instead of getting trashed. Why not go for a walk on the beach with your children and tell them how much you love them. How much you want to work on your relationship with them. Anything you want to say to your wife. Say it to your children. They will be watching. IF you are drinking. do 1 drink. 3 waters.
Do you have it in you....
I think I will be fine. I am looking at it as a "normal" vacation with my kids and their mother. I feel very little for my WAW right now, so it will be easier to spend a with with her around.
Cutter - no promises on the drinking thing. It is all inclusive after all! I will make sure to stop before I get to the point where I will say or do something I will regret later.
BTW, yesterday I said "Good job" before adding on my comments... I meant it. I simply pointed out an even better way to go about it in the future.
Indy/BTM
there is a reason why Coach said:
I don't think you can pull off this vacation without harming your effortsand why Puppy is backing him up. I also agree, but from your past performance, and mule-headedness to go through with it, it's pointless to arguing with you.
This:
I have mentioned before that my WAW is totally hot.
Along with this:
Cutter - no promises on the drinking thing. It is all inclusive after all!
You're setting yourself up for disaster. I can prepare you for what to expect and how to handle it, but I don't think you will read and apply. Why? Because you're feeling a little better this week and are starting to get too cocky. Anything I say will be a waste.
I am just curious as to why you W is going on this vacation with you? If it's a family vacation and she opted to leave the family why is she still included?
City Girl read pages 1 to 58...
BTM,
Your thread title caught my attention, just read the whole thing.
I must say, from the outside it's obvious that she's using that event as an excuse. And I disagree that she has worked through the past abuse. She wouldn't be acting this way if she had. The family death, illness, everything is coming back to the surface. The drinking and wrist-cutting is really scary.
She does seem to be making it fairly clear that she doesn't want a D. And I know that's a crumb, but it's a positive.
My heart hurts for you man. It's obvious how much you love her, and want to make this work. Stay in counseling! Keep working on your stuff!
The advice from the pro's here has helped me immensely. I've disagreed with Puppy on other threads, but that's just because I don't know what I'm talking about. If you or any other pros have advice, I'm desperate right now:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1896116&page=16
Checking in before we leave for Mexico early tomorrow morning.
I think WAW may be spending the night at my house since we fly out very early. She may even sleep in my bed. But I have no intention of making anything out of it. She will simply lie on the other side of my bed. No big deal.
We will not be sharing a room while at the resort, as per my suggestion and we are not buying XMAS presents for each other.
I am finally getting a little excited about the vacation.
I will report back on how things went when I return.
Merry Christmas to all!!!
Merry Christmas BTM! Excited to hear how it goes. I'm convinced she still loves you and it will show on this trip, just remember to give her space, and take a break if your emotions go crazy. Have fun!
I'm back from the family vacation in Mexico. I hope everyone had a great Christmas.
Things did not start out well on the vacation (WAW was crying first hour we were at resort) but by the end of the second day, it was almost like a "normal" family trip. We wound up having a good time - and most importantly the kids enjoyed their week.
We were back Sunday and had dinner together last night at my house and kids opened their presents.
Rather than go into full details - any questions?
welcome back. Its cold today eh BTM.
Did you bring us any gifts ?
Two questions for a start...
Did she get the hint that you were checking out the competition?
Did she catch you going all ga-ga-eyed at her?
Two questions for a start...
Did she get the hint that you were checking out the competition?
Did she catch you going all ga-ga-eyed at her?
A) I think she did. But, she has never been the jealous type, so very little reaction.
B) Nope - because I didn't. I will admit that we kissed a couple of times though. Just little kisses on the lips though. Nothing major.
I'll ask the question...
- did you guys break down and have sex at one point because it was your "last vacation" together and who knows what was going to happen.
Been there, done that, mind you in my situation we kept having sex for several months after that, I'll admit it, the sex is good, even after kicking her out and her having to move in with her parents, she still came back for the sex regularly, we would still be doing "it" if I hadn't put a stop to it at the end of oct/beginning of november (I forget specific dates)
I'll ask the question...
- did you guys break down and have sex at one point because it was your "last vacation" together and who knows what was going to happen.
Been there, done that, mind you in my situation we kept having sex for several months after that, I'll admit it, the sex is good, even after kicking her out and her having to move in with her parents, she still came back for the sex regularly, we would still be doing "it" if I hadn't put a stop to it at the end of oct/beginning of november (I forget specific dates)
Nope. Nothing beyond a couple of kisses.
As per my request, my son and I stayed in one room while WAW and my daughter stayed in another. That pretty much removed any risk.
Good update BTM! I'm not surprised she was emotional at first, but you handled it well.
Any interesting conversations or R talk?
Good update BTM! I'm not surprised she was emotional at first, but you handled it well.
Any interesting conversations or R talk?
She was crying because I was basically ignoring her. But then I decided I had to be more friendly for the week to go well and it worked.
I did everything I could to
not talk about R. It came up a few times, but I ever let it go anywhere. WAW made several comments about 'still being married" and "this isn't final" - that kind of thing. I basically ignored them and gave no response.
What are BTM's plans for the New Year?
I am a little confused and grant it I have only read the last few posts. I was on this site DBing my husband as he is the one that kept saying marriage wasn't for him and that he doesn't feel married, was in EA with another women. I finally left due to all of this and I couldn't take his lack of affection (yes we ML almost everyday but I am talking about hugs, kisses, little things), his coming and going when he felt like it, and his lack of commitment to the marriage. So I guess I am now a WAW. It seems as you (BeTheMan) ignoring your wife's response when she says "this is not final" is not what will bring her back which I am assuming is what you want. If my husband continues to not contact me, GAL, etc. I will assume that he really doesn't want the marriage since he is not pursuing me. Does this make sense?
What is the end goal? It seems like one person has to be willing to wave the flag to get on the road to reconciliation. What if both people are DBing...
I am a little confused and grant it I have only read the last few posts. I was on this site DBing my husband as he is the one that kept saying marriage wasn't for him and that he doesn't feel married, was in EA with another women. I finally left due to all of this and I couldn't take his lack of affection (yes we ML almost everyday but I am talking about hugs, kisses, little things), his coming and going when he felt like it, and his lack of commitment to the marriage. So I guess I am now a WAW. It seems as you (BeTheMan) ignoring your wife's response when she says "this is not final" is not what will bring her back which I am assuming is what you want. If my husband continues to not contact me, GAL, etc. I will assume that he really doesn't want the marriage since he is not pursuing me. Does this make sense?
What is the end goal? It seems like one person has to be willing to wave the flag to get on the road to reconciliation. What if both people are DBing...
BTM's wife has moved out and gotten herself an apartment.
She wouldn't need an apartment to live by herself if she was starting a new career, getting a new education, etc.
She wouldn't need an apartment to live by herself if she wanted to work on the marriage. She would need an apartment to pursue a "single" life.
I even remember reading that BTM wrote that she went out with a male friend just as friends to a movie or to a restaurant or something like that. Seriously this can not be construed as "working on the marriage".
Does BTM want to fix his marriage and reconcile?
Probably, but he won't fix his marriage by pursuing her and telling her that he wants her to come back. He'll get there by detaching, not starting relationship talking, limiting relationship talk and moving on with his life. If it was easy enough for her to move out and leave her family to pursue a bachelor's pad, she currently doesn't associate a whole lot of value with BTM and he's working on proving to himself (not her) that not only is he high value, that when the BTM train leaves the station, it will be her loss, not his. He's been pursuing her for so long trying to get her to change her mind about the marriage and the commitment to each other and that process didn't work.
Moving in the other direction works, detaching works, dropping the rope work, GAL'ing works, acting as if everything is awesome and moving on with your life works, pursuing DOESN'T WORK. He's doing ok. In fact, if I had to venture a guess, I'm sure his wife offered those kisses to him, I'm sure he didn't go up to her and pursue her for a kiss. She did this because he stopped pursuing and she naturally filled the void of space in between them.
See your point robx. I haven't read BTM entire stitch so I probably should have held back on my posts and in no way was I trying to imply that BTM wasn't doing a great job in DBing. I guess I was just confused looking at things from a female perspective who is now considered a WAW that my husband is also not pursuing, GAL, etc. I want my husband to pursue me even though I am the one that left. I moved out and will move forward with getting an apartment if my husband continues to act like life is grand and detached from me. I will read BTM entire stitch before posting but sometimes I am confused as a now WAW in that if my husband was up here following DB advice by not pursuing, GAL, etc. I would just assume that he wasn't interested in me or our marriage.
See your point robx. I haven't read BTM entire stitch so I probably should have held back on my posts and in no way was I trying to imply that BTM wasn't doing a great job in DBing. I guess I was just confused looking at things from a female perspective who is now considered a WAW that my husband is also not pursuing, GAL, etc. I want my husband to pursue me even though I am the one that left. I moved out and will move forward with getting an apartment if my husband continues to act like life is grand and detached from me. I will read BTM entire stitch before posting but sometimes I am confused as a now WAW in that if my husband was up here following DB advice by not pursuing, GAL, etc. I would just assume that he wasn't interested in me or our marriage.
You said you would assume that your husband isn't interested in you but you also mention above that YOU WANT YOUR HUSBAND TO PURSUE.... hmmmm..... if I didn't know better, I would think his tactics might be working. Do you see how it works, he doesn't do anything, ACT AS IF (db principle) life is great, and detaches from you, and what effect does it have on you? You want him to pursue you, YOU STILL WANT HIM.
I would say what your husband is doing appears to be working on you.
And if i'm not mistaken, what BTM is doing is starting to show on his wife as well, he didn't prompt her to say anything about the relationship, she volunteered that herself plus she offered him a few kisses as well voluntarily and why? ..... because he detached, stopped pursuing and she naturally closed the distance between them.
In the end, a good rule of thumb to follow is this,
if a person doesn't want to be with you by their own choice, let go of those people.
I guess I was just confused looking at things from a female perspective who is now considered a WAW that my husband is also not pursuing, GAL, etc.
UM, yup... you sure are confused girl! Newsflash for you... you're the LBS that was left the marital home. REPEAT: You are NOT the WAW here. Get that into your head.
Your H is a having an affair. As long as those "love chemicals" are in his bloodstream you can forget about him looking in your direction. Do whatever is in your power to bust that affair.
EDIT: Likewise with that change in mindset, whatever Rob has said does not really apply to you.
I hate to hijack my own thread here......
But I have to admit that I initiated the first kiss while on vacation. But...I did it with the intention of creating a different feeling between WAW and I and it was just a single kiss. My WAW initiated the next couple and tried to make them more romantic.
Since things started out poorly and I wanted the week to go well, I felt I had to do something different. But, since we have been back, I gone right back to not contacting her or anything.
What are BTM's plans for the New Year?
I actually have not made any major plans for next year. And for me...that is a big thing. I have always been a planner and right now am learning to enjoy living one day at a time.
No longer being scared of the final outcome of my marital situation makes it so much easier to just live.
WAW texted me at 12:06 am - "Happy New Year. I love you". I was sleeping with phone tuned off, but this morning sent back "HNY". No need to do more than that I think.
Yesterday, WAW came over with groceries and made dinner for she and I and S16. D18 was at work. We are nicely settling in to our routine. I may even go to a movie with WAW and the kids one night this week. It looks like the family vacation showed us that we can spend time together without it being too awkward. Many of you thougth it would be a really bad thing and it turned out well.
Yesterday, WAW came over with groceries and made dinner for she and I and S16. D18 was at work. We are nicely settling in to our routine. I may even go to a movie with WAW and the kids one night this week. It looks like the family vacation showed us that we can spend time together without it being too awkward. Many of you thougth it would be a really bad thing and it turned out well.
Before you went, you wrote:
I have the whole vacation thing all worked out in my mind. I am going to have a great week in the sun away from the snow here. I think this just might be the perfect opportunity to show my WAW just how much I have moved on.
How exactly does taking her on a nice vacation, and initiating affection with her, show her "how much you've moved on"??
Please don't misunderstand me. If your choice was to go the "win her over" route (which I don't necessarily agree with), then fine on the vacation. But if you were trying to show her that you were moving on, we tried to tell you that you'd probably go all "melty man" on the vacation, and that it wouldn't work.
You did, indeed, go all melty man. We'll see in time how that helps (or hurts) your efforts.
I am glad you had fun tho!
Puppy
I did not go all "melty melt" at all!! Seriously!!
I simply showed her a little affection, so she would feel better and the family would have a better week. I don't want her to think I have lost all feelings toward her and have become cold - and I know that's what she was thinking prior to me being a little affectionate towards her.
I also know she was hoping for much more than I gave her.
Wow! An L-Bomb? That's really big.
I got one of those a year ago, but things have cooled off since then.
You're doing great BTM! I think you were right to not make things completely cold. Just IMO. Keep us updated.
Update....
Last night I saw Avatar with WAW and our kids and daughter's boyfriend. They all had dinner at the restaraunt my WAW manages. I skipped that and told WAW that I don't feel comfortable there.
I met them at the theatre and even sat beside WAW. She said "are you sure you want to sit beside me?" I said "why - do you smell?"
The movie was good and when it was over I just left with my son and made no big deal out of it. I think WAW was looking for a hug or something, but I am not going to be the one to initiate it now.
I am getting used to life at home without WAW, and actually enjoying some aspects. Back in the groove at work. There are times when I am no longer sure that I actually want her back. No need to make a definite decision right now. I have lots of time.
They all had dinner at the restaraunt my WAW manages. I skipped that and told WAW that I don't feel comfortable there.
Why did you not feel comfortable? Sounds like you are trying to make her feel guilty and makes you look pretty unmanly.
They all had dinner at the restaraunt my WAW manages. I skipped that and told WAW that I don't feel comfortable there.
Why did you not feel comfortable? Sounds like you are trying to make her feel guilty and makes you look pretty unmanly.
I disagree. To me, t his shows me that he knows what he wants, what he DOESN'T want, and is willing to take the lead on making sure he has the former in his life and not the latter.
And you gotta admit, the "Why, do I smell bad?" thing was beautifully executed.
Puppy
They all had dinner at the restaraunt my WAW manages. I skipped that and told WAW that I don't feel comfortable there.
Why did you not feel comfortable? Sounds like you are trying to make her feel guilty and makes you look pretty unmanly.
I disagree. To me, t his shows me that he knows what he wants, what he DOESN'T want, and is willing to take the lead on making sure he has the former in his life and not the latter.
And you gotta admit, the "Why, do I smell bad?" thing was beautifully executed.
Puppy
Check my previous post Puppy. I said "why, do
you smell bad?"
Not going to the restaraunt didn't make me look week in any way Bison. I think it showed that I am fine with seeing a movie with the family, but not going to WAW workplace - where "her people" are. It's like her second (and sometimes first) home and if she can't be in our home and I am not even allowed to visit her apartment, than it makes sense that I wouldn't want to go to her workplace.
Puppy knows best.
The way I saw it was that you were telling her you were uncomfortable being around people she knew and you couldn't handle it because you were uncomfortable. But then go along with her to a movie like all is fine not "he knows what he wants, what he DOESN'T want, and is willing to take the lead on making sure he has the former in his life and not the latter."
But like I said PDT knows best.
Not really. I just offer a different perspective. Other than sniffing out affairs (which -- sadly -- I "bat" near 1.000 on), I'm sure I've been wrong TONS of times on here, considering how many times I throw advice out there.
Puppy
A little update...
Yesterday WAW came over with groceries and made dinner as usual on Sundays now. She also made another dish, so we would have leftovers for the week.
At one point I told WAW that I keep having dreams about her - or more specifically her being topless in my dreams. That wound up with be touching her breasts (through her bra) a little with her approval of course.
That might have been a mistake?????
At one point I told WAW that I keep having dreams about her - or more specifically her being topless in my dreams. That wound up with be touching her breasts (through her bra) a little with her approval of course.
That might have been a mistake?????
You think?
That might have been a little over-sharing at this stage of things, unless it was in the context of renewed feelings for each other.
Would you tell a women that you were only dating that story?
LOL, Well you over stepped but i am on your side. I feel you pain.
At one point I told WAW that I keep having dreams about her - or more specifically her being topless in my dreams. That wound up with be touching her breasts (through her bra) a little with her approval of course.
That might have been a mistake?????
I think it would be okay if you told her you had ONE dream like this; nothing more.
And touching her??? Big no-no; "pursuing" to the max, and pretty much the DEFINITION of "needy/grabby," don'tchathink??
Puppy
I dunno Puppy.
My original comment on the subject was a joke to some extent. I said "can you stay out of my dreams tonight - or at least keep your top on". From that...well...you know what happened.
I backed off immediately after though. Maybe..just maybe..it left her hoping for more???
Would I tell a woman I was dating that I dreamt of her body? Uh - yes!!!
I dunno Puppy.
My original comment on the subject was a joke to some extent. I said "can you stay out of my dreams tonight - or at least keep your top on". From that...well...you know what happened.
OK, I misunderstood the original comment.
I thought that the touching was part of the dream; I didn't realize it was a result of the conversation.
I dunno Puppy.
My original comment on the subject was a joke to some extent. I said "can you stay out of my dreams tonight - or at least keep your top on". From that...well...you know what happened.
OK, I misunderstood the original comment.
I thought that the touching was part of the dream; I didn't realize it was a result of the conversation.
So....now it's ok that I touched them? I gotta admit - I miss them!!!
So....now it's ok that I touched them? I gotta admit - I miss them!!!
It's not for me to say. If she didn't mind, then I guess it's OK.
And you meant "miss her", right?
So....now it's ok that I touched them? I gotta admit - I miss them!!!
It's not for me to say. If she didn't mind, then I guess it's OK.
And you meant "miss her", right?
Nope. I meant I miss them. Although, I do miss her too.
Hey no more talk of breasts...
Some of us here have not seen any since August....
Unless they're de-boned chicken fillets.
Hey no more talk of breasts...
Some of us here have not seen any since August....
- nothing like a nice pair of perfectly sized, beautifully shaped, round, succulent, mouth watering breasts to make a man point "north"
Cutter you sound like a man walking through the desert searching for a spring of cool water ;-)
Unless they're de-boned chicken fillets.
I haven't had supper yet, Thanks G ;-)
Drive by FLASH. ### o o ###
Sorry, BTM, didn't mean to cause a nightmare now!
Drive by FLASH. ### o o ###
Sorry, BTM, didn't mean to cause a nightmare now!
NICE!!!
My screen is fogged over...
Hey no more talk of breasts...
Some of us here have not seen any since August....
- nothing like a nice pair of perfectly sized, beautifully shaped, round, succulent, mouth watering breasts to make a man point "north"
Cutter you sound like a man walking through the desert searching for a spring of cool water ;-)
Nope, good here. I know I am going to see some again one day. Plus. This conversation means nothing without pictures
Hehe....
Time to put this thread back to a subject other than breasts....
Yesterday my D18 was going to be seeing my WAW and a friend of hers from out of province. When I was leaving for work yesterday I kissed D18 as usual and then said "and this one is for Nancy - and this one is for your mom".
Last night WAW texted me - "thanks for kiss via D18". We texted a few times back and forth and then I turned phone off. This morning, I replied to her last message that I missed and said I would call her later today to tell her about possible promotion for me here at work.
There - update done. No more talk about....
BTM, you're the MAN! This is sounding good.
I'm not sure the "don't pursue" completely applies to you, especially since you've been through all this before. I'm finding things have been much better with my W when I stopped worrying, starting acting freakin' confident, tried some crazy things and watched the results. Those are the biggest DB principles IMO depending on the sitch. You went out on a limb, told her about the dream, and went for the boobs. It worked! According to her, this was all caused by that sexual incident. So it's encouraging that she was comfortable.
Now just let yourself feel good instead of second-guessing. And try some other out-of-character things and watch her reaction. Have fun with it.
Jon - I hope you are right that "don't pursue" may not completely apply to me. Puppy is probably going to kick my butt for this, but...
WAW and I are going out for dinner this coming Saturday night - at my request. I suppose it's a date of sorts, but I really just wanted some time to talk to her (not about anything serious) in a neutral location without interruptions or worrying about the kids overhearing things if talk does turn to more serious matters.
I figure we are going to be in each others lives regardless of the outcome and it was time for one of us to extend an olive branch and start the process of healing. And I do know (100% sure) that WAW would some day like to put our marriage back together, so this can't hurt. But at the same time, I am not expecting anything from it.
Jon - I hope you are right that "don't pursue" may not completely apply to me. Puppy is probably going to kick my butt for this, but...
WAW and I are going out for dinner this coming Saturday night - at my request. I suppose it's a date of sorts, but I really just wanted some time to talk to her (not about anything serious) in a neutral location without interruptions or worrying about the kids overhearing things if talk does turn to more serious matters.
I have no problem with this. It's good that YOU initiated it ("leading"), and so long as you can keep your "NO EXPECTATIONS" mantra in check, and "NO R TALKS" you'll be fine. It's better than the boob-grabbing, LOL.
I DO think you will get a little pursuit from HER, either during this date or immediately following, and I'd advise you ahead of time to play it cool.
Glad to hear you were the first to end the text exchanges last nite.
Puppy
Had dinner with WAW last night as planned. Nothing romantic or anything. We actually went to a dive that has African food. Unique experience.
WAW looked great. Some R talk, but nothing too deep. She did cry a little a couple of times. She has some medical news that she was not willing to share last night - she didn't want to make it a sad night. Maybe she will share when she comes over with groceries and to make dinner today.
WAW had me pick her up at work. She does not feel comfortable with me picking her up at her apartment. Not even with having me just stop in front of the building. I dropped her off back at work (restaraunt/pub) after dinner. She gave me a kiss on the cheek and said bye.
Later she texted "thanks for dinner it was nice". I responded "you're wecome. it was nice to feel even a litle like us".
During dinner I admitted to missing her and missing cuddling. She said she does too.
Would it be a bad move to suggest a cuddle later today when she is here???
yes, it's a bad move, it's pursuing any way you look at it.
And I tell you if she is crying and she also doesn't feel comfortable having you drop her off in front of her apartment building, something is afoot - I've seen this too many time to think differently, call me cynical but she knows she is hurting the nice guy that BTM is and still having an affair behind his back.
No cuddling, if the WAW wants you, let her pursue you.
BTM,
I agree with rob. I think that will happen naturally, and if it does, cool. Why ask for it?
Also, I want to hear more about you. What are you doing for fun that has nothing to do with W?
Also, I want to hear more about you. What are you doing for fun that has nothing to do with W?
I am a definite home body, so have not really done the GAL thing, since I already have one that I like. So..not really doing anything different for fun than I would normally, but that works for me.
My son didn't want to go grocery shopping with WAW yesterday and she was not feeling well, so she asked me to go with her. I did. No bigggie.
No cuddle yesterday, but we did hug a couple of times. Again - no biggie. She asked if I wanted to join she and the kids at a movie one night this week, but I said no, simply because it's not a movie I want to see.
Tonight, I am going back to the Divorce Support group that has been off since before Christmas. I enjoy the people there and the support. It will be good to get back to it.
I'm finding things have been much better with my W when I stopped worrying, starting acting freakin' confident, tried some crazy things and watched the results.
It's truly amazing that when one stops stressing is when things seem to take a positive turn.
I am curious though, what "crazy things" did you try? Sounds interesting.
BTM, I think it's nice that you invited her out to dinner.
Checking In....
Nothing new really in regards to relationship status with WAW. She bought a puppy this week. We already have a small dog and a cat that are "hers" but are at home with me and kids. WAW says she is lonely and needed company. Yesterday, I asked what she is going to do with 2 dogs and a cat in an apartment after we sell the house. No real answer.
Yesterday, She made dinner for us as usual on Sundays and then left right after eating with S16 and I. She gave me a quick peck on the lips and was gone.
Other than that, life goes on.....
WAW left her new puppy with D18 at our house while she went to Dr appt yesterday. More bad medical news for WAW, but nothing official yet, so will deal with that later.
WAW called me and asked if she should bring something so we could all have dinner together last night. First time we all ate together since XMAS vacation, since D18 is always at work on Sundays when WAW and I have dinner with S16.
While cleaning up after dinner, WAW was trying to put something away in a cupboard while I was in the way. She rubbed her breasts against me and it certainly seemed intentional. I made a joke about it and nothing more. We shared a hug at one point and she kissed me on cheek when she left.
It seems to me that WAW really wants attention from me. We are even supposed to play Scrabble this Sunday like we used to. With all that in mind.....I have a question.
Where is the line between being too nice and making WAW feel that I don't care about her? Is the trick to only give her attention when she looks for it - when she comes to "my" house or when she calls or texts first
One thing I know she will need to even consider reconcilation is that she is important to me and that I truly care about her.
Your feedback appreciated.
No feedback from the pros?
I'm not one of the experts but a kiss on the cheek is very "friend"-like. Could it be that you're reading too much into it?
As for your bolded question...I cant answer that. If my SO shows the slightest interest I melt everywhere and end up sticking my foot in my mouth, consequently giving her cold feet.
As I mentioned here, about 2 weeks ago WAW and I went out for dinner together.
Last night she sent me the following text: "can we date again soon?"
My phone was off last night, so I got the message this morning. I replied with "sure" and nothing more. No response from her yet.
Any thoughts?
WAW and I had a brief textversation last night in which she said "I am sad tonight'. I asked why - part of the response: "I miss my kids. I miss you". She also texted that she is "excited about playing Scrabble tomorrow".
I wound up calling her, since I suck at texting. We has a brief talk - mostly about potential changes for me at work. She is coming over today for the usual Sunday dinner. We are also going to play Scrabble as we used to.
D18 told me last night that WAW asked her if she though I would want to do something for Valentines Day.
All this is odd from a woman who moved out 2 months ago.........
Hmmm. Anything pending legally?
Puppy
Nope. Still no lawyers involved. Many questioned my decision to keep lawyers out and trust her, but so far it seems like the right choice.
As I mentioned here, about 2 weeks ago WAW and I went out for dinner together.
Last night she sent me the following text: "can we date again soon?"
My phone was off last night, so I got the message this morning. I replied with "sure" and nothing more. No response from her yet.
Any thoughts?
"Well,
that was awfully easy, she thought to herself.
Puppy
I see your point Puppy, but I think with my WAW this is not the time to play too hard to get. I know that she needs to feel like I want to be near her and that I miss her. Not to the point that I am pleading for her or persuing or making any demands of her, but that I simply be honest and pay some attention to her when she makes the first move.
There are lots of people here who would be thrilled to be at this point with their WAW. I have made a lot of mistakes this time around, but sometimes I need to go with my gut based on what I know about my WAW.
Refresh my memory -- is there OM in the situation? I can't remember.
Puppy
[quote=BeTheMan]I see your point Puppy, but I think with my WAW this is not the time to play too hard to get. I know that she needs to feel like I want to be near her and that I miss her. Not to the point that I am pleading for her or persuing or making any demands of her, but that I simply be honest and pay some attention to her when she makes the first move.
[/quote
There are plenty of ways to do that, short of a "Sure" the very first time she pulls your string. "That sounds really nice, but I'm sure you can understand my reluctance, considering all that's happened. Let me give it some thought, and we can discuss it sometime soon" would be much more appropriate, in my opinion.
There's a huge gulf between "hard to get" and an immediate "Sure!"
Puppy
Refresh my memory -- is there OM in the situation? I can't remember.
Puppy
You can never say never, but I really don't think so.
[quote=BeTheMan]I see your point Puppy, but I think with my WAW this is not the time to play too hard to get. I know that she needs to feel like I want to be near her and that I miss her. Not to the point that I am pleading for her or persuing or making any demands of her, but that I simply be honest and pay some attention to her when she makes the first move.
[/quote
There are plenty of ways to do that, short of a "Sure" the very first time she pulls your string. "That sounds really nice, but I'm sure you can understand my reluctance, considering all that's happened. Let me give it some thought, and we can discuss it sometime soon" would be much more appropriate, in my opinion.
There's a huge gulf between "hard to get" and an immediate "Sure!"
Puppy
Got it. Too late now, but what I won't do is bring it up. I will ensure she makes the offer and then not respond immediately and still positively, but choose my words carefully.
Refresh my memory -- is there OM in the situation? I can't remember.
Puppy
You can never say never, but I really don't think so.
OK. Because it would change my advise greatly if there were, for obvious reasons.
Puppy
WAW just left after the usual Sunday dinner with S16, she and I.
While she was making dinner she caught me looking down her top. She said "I can show them to you" and that's what she did. That led to some fondling in the kitchen, including her touching me "there".
Thankfully (well...in some ways) I stopped it. Good thing too, since S16 came downstairs and into the kitchen moments later.
We then had dinner together and she left right after since she was tired. We never even played Scrabble she was so looking forward to. She said she would like us all to have dinner this Wed and asked for a kiss when she left.
What the heck do I make of this and where do I go from here????
MIXED signals BTM MIXED signals - it's just what they do!
Do not trust what she does or says - just keep working on YOU. Do not pursue her.
No problem with not persuing. I can play it cool. Even though I need a freezing cold shower now!!!
She is making all the moves now: asking if we can date again, suggesting dinner an extra night this week etc.
BTM...I really envy you. With the way my sitch has gone I dont think I could dream of being even close to where you are in terms of DB success.
Whatever you've done has apparently worked...and you should be congratulated for it.
I only wish we could all be as far along in success as you.
BTM...I really envy you. With the way my sitch has gone I dont think I could dream of being even close to where you are in terms of DB success.
Whatever you've done has apparently worked...and you should be congratulated for it.
I only wish we could all be as far along in success as you.
Thanks for that. I don't consider myself all that far along, considering my wife got her own apartment 2 months ago and we remain separated.
But...it's good to hear a simple positive comment. Many others here will focus on the negative aspects, so it's good to have both viewpoints.
I'm one of those with the negative comments... So BTM... it appears as if you have learned nothing... and this is the second time around.
She was dangling her bait to see if you were still hanging around while she's out there doing whatever the heck she is doing for as long as she feels like doing it. A phrase that seems ideal for you... "A deer caught in the headlights."
Stop being played for a fool. You are the same BTM whose W accused him of sexual abuse, right? I can just imagine the expression on your face when she accuses you of groping her inappropriately in the near future...
Honestly, I don't know what kind of game you're playing here BTM... because what you are doing does not seem in the least like DB'ing to me.
Would you care to enlighten us ignorant fools?
As I said, it's good to have both viewpoints.
Honestly, I don't know what kind of game you're playing here BTM... because what you are doing does not seem in the least like DB'ing to me.
Would you care to enlighten us ignorant fools?
What the heck do I make of this and where do I go from here????
She wants to know if you're still attracted to her.
Puppy
What the heck do I make of this and where do I go from here????
She wants to know if you're still attracted to her.
Puppy
I thinks that's part of it Puppy. During our entire relationship, she often thought I only wanted her for her physical assets. Then I completely shut that down for a few months and just maybe she misses that.....and maybe she just needed to touch and be touched.
ARE you the poster whose wife accused you of sexual abuse? I had forgotten about that. If that's true, then I would NOT advocate, under any circumstances, taking the bait she is dangling.
Puppy
I think you are thinking of Gardener. Is there some reason you would not have sex with your wife if you both want it? In my case, sex was what kept us from getting divorced. It was a foundation that we could rebuild the rest of the relationship on.
Yes, that's me. And in reality, I did violater her. Please go back and read the early pages of this thread for details.
I think it's possible that the time apart has allowed my WAW to heal from that experience that occured almost a year ago. Puppy - why would she be dangling this bait? What alterior motive could she have?
Is it attractive to a woman for her husband to behave as if he is not worthy of being sexual with her? How does being a non sexual/ sensual human being show any slef confidence? How is ignoring your wife's sexual desires acting "as if"?
It seems to me that there is some clashing of db principles here.
I thought I had it correctly.
I can't answer your questions just from a "philosophical" standpoint. If it were me, and my wife had accused me of that (and I do remember your sitch, and I happen to disagree with her sincerity about how "traumatized" she claims to be), I wouldn't come within ten feet of her until she had either recanted the charges, or we had had some SERIOUS joint counseling with a qualified counselor to help us come to some sort of resolution on the issue.
Your wife seems to use sex as a weapon, both defensively and offensively. I think there are deeper issues there than "to DB or not to DB."
Puppy
Well......Puppy.......I got closer than ten feet of her yesterday.......
I initiated first contact, but she definitely took it to the next level. After, we had Sunday dinner with S16 as usual and then she went home to her apartment. Before leaving she said "thanks for ________ me". I made a joke about it not being the greatest (what can you expect after 3 months) and she said "maybe next time".
I know it should not have happened, but it did. It's one thing to say you will not act on your desires, but another to actually stop in the heat of the moment after 3 months of nothing.
So...now what?
Document it.
If I were your attorney, I would advise you to e-mail her and say "I had a nice time yesterday; it's nice that you feel safe with me again."
Maybe you can get her to respond to it in writing, if you kwim.
Puppy
Great idea Puppy. I'm not very concerned about needing any documentation, but still it's a great idea.
I am also going to keep any texts between us that could be important.
It may not have been the smart thing to do, but I sure have a bounce in my step today!
Time for my weekly update......
I had been thinking that WAW was considering returning home and reconciliation at some point. But a couple of recent comments and actions on her part have me thinking otherwise.
First there was the acquisition of the puppy when we already have a dog, cat and parrot at the house that are supposedly hers. Then, on Sunday she commented that she might be moving to a larger apartment across from her current one. It would mean signing a one year lease all over again. Since adding 3 months to the possible date of reconciliation means nothing to her, it seems unlikely that she has any plans of coming home. I did make a comment about this and she just said something like "I have not made any decision yet, but am not going to put my life on hold".
Then....the very next day she says she's been looking at vacations for us to go in in spring.
Weird!!!
So now what???
Last night WAW texted me after work: "wanna come over,". This from the woman who up until now didn't want me anywhere near her apartment. Initially, with DB principles in mind, and beacause I was very tired, I politely declined the offer. After a few more texts, my willpower (or won'tpower) died and I was on my way.
Within less than 15 minutes, at her suggestion we were in her bedroom. It was much better than the quickie a couple weeks ago. We lied in bed and talked for a while later and then talked a while in her living room before I left.
She still plans on moving to a 2 bedroom apt next door, even though that means re-signing a one year lease and extending the time frame to possibly come home by 3 months - at least from that point of view.
She said many times that she misses me and I admitted same. I think it was time to be honest. I also said that while I now know we needed time apart, I am ready for her to come home anytime, but only if things will be better. I put no pressure on her, and said I understand if she's not there or even close.
I have to admit, that it was kind of exciting and if this continues I have the best of both worlds in some ways - except for the financial aspects of running two residences.
We are still considering a spring vacation together. I'm not sure what is best there.
My D18 and S16 know where I was last night and are aware that this was a big step for my wife. They are quite intuitive and likely know what occured.
This is getting stranger day by day!!! Now what???
All comments and feedback appreciated. Yes, Puppy, even yours - although driving home last night, I actually thought this would bring admonishment from you. At least I thought of you then, not during...................
Sounds a lot like my situation ( two apartments, "wanna come over?" txt msgs, going away together this weekend ).
Sounds a lot like my situation ( two apartments, "wanna come over?" txt msgs, going away together this weekend ).
I will have to visit your thread to see how you are handling it. It sure is confusing.
BTM,
I wouldn't have a problem with it, if YOU were initiating (you're not -- she is), you didn't have prior charges of ASSAULT from this woman (you do), and if you weren't responding to her at the drop of a hat (you are -- 15 minutes??? god, you're easy!!).
I hope you are DOCUMENTING all of these encounters. Get some, as they say, "contemporaneous" evidence, meaning TELL A THIRD PARTY each time it happens, so that they can later testify on your behalf, if need be.
And I don't want to hear ANY more nonsense from anyone that your wife still lives in fear of you. That's obviously b.s. now.
Puppy
BTM,
I wouldn't have a problem with it, if YOU were initiating (you're not -- she is), you didn't have prior charges of ASSAULT from this woman (you do), and if you weren't responding to her at the drop of a hat (you are -- 15 minutes??? god, you're easy!!).
I hope you are DOCUMENTING all of these encounters. Get some, as they say, "contemporaneous" evidence, meaning TELL A THIRD PARTY each time it happens, so that they can later testify on your behalf, if need be.
And I don't want to hear ANY more nonsense from anyone that your wife still lives in fear of you. That's obviously b.s. now.
Puppy
15 minutes...you're giving me more credit than I deserve. She's so hot that I just can't be anything other than easy. I try to think with the big head, but.....
I am documenting it all. keeping the texts and telling a friend everything.
There certainly is no fear of me now and no further mention of anything like that from WAW. Virtually nothing but compliments at this point. I really think it may just be a matter of time.
I know one thing - things are so much better than Dec 1st when she moved out. Now to be patient and keep trying to do the right thing.
Do you know this phrase: "Behind every great man is a great woman"
Gno's corollary: "Behind the downfall of great men is an untrustworthy woman."
Some historical examples: Adam, Samson, Julius Caesar, Emperor Justinian I
Look them up and see the destiny your little head is leading you to.
Last words of Gno for this sitch. Good luck little man.
WAW continues to send mixed messages and continues with actions that condradict each other.
Yesterday she came over for the usual Sunday shopping and dinenr with S18 - D18 was away for the day. WAW told me that she is going to mvoe to a 2 bedroom apt starting April 1st, which extends any possible reconciliation date by 4 months.
Yet...when she came over yesterday I was having a nap. She came into my bedroom (used to be ours)which is my only private space in the house. I guess she felt that was ok, since I was at her apartment last week. She lied down beside me when I invited and that led to a little play. No sex - but some play.
Again, yesterday she said she wants to go away together in spring. I'm not sure that is a smart idea financially or in other way. Things are certainly going well between us, but at some point I should force her to make a choice. But....she's the kind of person that when pushed will choose to the opposite of what she knows I want.
Yeesh!!!!!!
Why would anyone think about forcing someone to make a decision when things are going well (especially in your case, when you know that it will probably have an undesireable outcome)? Instead of contemplating actions that may push her away from you, try doing things that will draw her towards you. Analyze what's worked for you, and go down that path.
WAW continues to send mixed messages and continues with actions that condradict each other.
Yesterday she came over for the usual Sunday shopping and dinenr with S18 - D18 was away for the day. WAW told me that she is going to mvoe to a 2 bedroom apt starting April 1st, which extends any possible reconciliation date by 4 months.
Yet...when she came over yesterday I was having a nap. She came into my bedroom (used to be ours)which is my only private space in the house. I guess she felt that was ok, since I was at her apartment last week. She lied down beside me when I invited and that led to a little play. No sex - but some play.
Again, yesterday she said she wants to go away together in spring. I'm not sure that is a smart idea financially or in other way. Things are certainly going well between us, but at some point I should force her to make a choice.
But....she's the kind of person that when pushed will choose to the opposite of what she knows I want.
Yeesh!!!!!!
you say you want to force her to make a choice, you don't get it, this is your choice, not hers. When you're ready to move on, move on and if that means leaving her behind, so be it, that will be your choice, you are a man, you don't wait for someone else to act to make your move, you make your move when YOU want to do it.
You can't force someone to do anything and even if you could, they would resent you for it.
Plus you answered your own question, she would do the opposite of what you want her to do.
She wants to go on a trip with you, do it, if you can.
If you have a ton of cash burning a hole in your pocket, go for it especially if it's really just the two of you and she wants to spend time with you without the kids.
If you're strapped for cash, find out what the cost of the trip is and ask her if this is something she wants to chip in for or if this is something she wants you to pay for.
Mind you, is this trip a for sure thing?
Or is it just talk right now?
If it's just talk, don't read too much into it, when she brings up the discussion, tell her a few places you would like to go to (seriously, places you would like to go to) and then ask her where she would like to go.
Do you know why she needs a 2 bedroom apartment?
Why the extra bedroom? Is she planning on getting a roommate? Ask her, you have nothing to lose.
Rob - nice to hear from you. Please read and respond.
She absolutely wants to go on vacation together. While I hardly have cash burning a hole in my pocket, it won't do any real harm financially. I think we would likely split the cost with each of us paying our own way. Regardless of the outcome of our situation, it will cost each of us half in the long run anyway.
I am confused why you would say we should go. You were totally against us going with the kids at Christmas. Isn't going away with her, accepting her invite to her apartment, etc letting her "cake eat" big time? Isn't she getting all the good parts of me, without having to commit to out marriage? Please explain.
Her current apartment, while in a beautiful building is very small. She simply wants more space. She would also like a second bedroom, so the kids could stay overnight if they want. She said it was ok at first, but actually living in it is claustrophobic. By most people's standards her current place would be great, but she is used to living in our 2500 square foot home. She is so much better off than most people who are separated, but would never see it that way. She could have plans for a roommate that she does not want to tell me about, but i highly doubt it. She really loves her privacy and I can\t see her ever living with another person.
A friend of mine said I have the perfect arrangement right now - my own privacy, freedom, in my house with my kids and I have a "mistress" with a nice apartment who invites me over for sex and on Sundays comes to my house with groceries and makes me a great dinner.
Is that the case or do I have a cake eating WAW? Or is it really both???
All other feedback appreciated as well in addition to Rob.
Isn't she getting all the good parts of me, without having to commit to out marriage? Please explain.
You're separated,
do you want her back or not?
You don't have to be an a$$hole to be a real man.
You make it sound like getting all the good parts of you is something alien to your relationship.
In the end, marriage or divorce, it's just a piece of paper, a document, a certificate.
YOU are working on your relationship.
YOU are making you better, you can't control what she does, obviously (and maybe not so "obvious" to alot of people on these forums).
All you can do is work on you but the catch is, you can't work on you to get her back. You work on you because you want to be better, you realized that the life you were living wasn't great, you weren't do great things, integrity wasn't part of your package, etc.
Another thing that probably wasn't part of the package before was FUN.
How about having FUN?
Novel idea.
Go on the trip, you have nothing to lose.
Your wife wants to go on a vacation with just you without the kids, I'm sure sex will be part of the equation too, enjoy yourself without the pressures of relationship issues, commitment, marriage, divorce - act as if you starting to see her for the first time all over again - you guys didn't worry about relationship issues back then before you got married. You just went out and had fun, so many people lose sight of that, marriage can make people really boring.
Yes go on the trip, have fun, and do it for you, not because you're trying to impress her or win her back, just do it for you, have fun with her, be young again.
You don't have a guaranteed life span, we can all go at any time, make sure you spend your time wisely.
And never mind this business about "getting all the good parts of you", you have mentioned repeatedly that she still comes over to cook dinner for you and the kids, she's giving you what she can right now.
Let go of pressuring her to be something she can't be, people change, including you.
yet another great piece of advice by mr Rob ^
Isn't she getting all the good parts of me, without having to commit to out marriage? Please explain.
You're separated,
do you want her back or not?
You don't have to be an a$$hole to be a real man.
You make it sound like getting all the good parts of you is something alien to your relationship.
In the end, marriage or divorce, it's just a piece of paper, a document, a certificate.
YOU are working on your relationship.
YOU are making you better, you can't control what she does, obviously (and maybe not so "obvious" to alot of people on these forums).
All you can do is work on you but the catch is, you can't work on you to get her back. You work on you because you want to be better, you realized that the life you were living wasn't great, you weren't do great things, integrity wasn't part of your package, etc.
Another thing that probably wasn't part of the package before was FUN.
How about having FUN?
Novel idea.
Go on the trip, you have nothing to lose.
Your wife wants to go on a vacation with just you without the kids, I'm sure sex will be part of the equation too, enjoy yourself without the pressures of relationship issues, commitment, marriage, divorce - act as if you starting to see her for the first time all over again - you guys didn't worry about relationship issues back then before you got married. You just went out and had fun, so many people lose sight of that, marriage can make people really boring.
Yes go on the trip, have fun, and do it for you, not because you're trying to impress her or win her back, just do it for you, have fun with her, be young again.
You don't have a guaranteed life span, we can all go at any time, make sure you spend your time wisely.
And never mind this business about "getting all the good parts of you", you have mentioned repeatedly that she still comes over to cook dinner for you and the kids, she's giving you what she can right now.
Let go of pressuring her to be something she can't be, people change, including you.
Awesome Rob. In one word: Thanks!!!
I'm wondering....when do I take the initiative and invite myself to her apartment for round 2? Or do I at all?
Pursue or be pursued that is the question. Now what do you think?
Pursue or be pursued that is the question. Now what do you think?
Pursued, obviously. But...at some point I think it's time for me to take the lead, to "be a man", to call the shots somewhat. Does that make sense?
If I show confidence does that not make more attractive?
I have not checked in for a while.
Things are still pretty well the same. WAW still asking me to go on vacation together. I have been to her newest apartment a couple times. Some touching, but no sex since the first time at her initial apartment about a month ago.
Communication remains quite good - even the odd "I love you" via text or in person. WAW still comes over on Sundays to grcoery shop and make dinner.
So...other than the fact that there is no mention of coming home from her and that she has a lease for year, things look good.
Yesterday I booked a vacation to Mexico first week of April for WAW and I. Not sure it is the right thing to do, but figured it really can't do any harm either?
Any thoughts?
I'd be very careful if I were you.
Your w sounds like a drunk, a cutter, and extremely manipulative.
That crap about you "assaulting" her while she was asleep is pure B.S. too.
I'd be very careful if I were you.
Your w sounds like a drunk, a cutter, and extremely manipulative.
That crap about you "assaulting" her while she was asleep is pure B.S. too.
Oh My!!!
A "drunk" is someone who drinks every day and to the point of affecting their daily life. While my WAW has used alcohol as an escape in the past, she is not a drunk.
A "cutter" is someone who does so on a semi-regular basis. Not someone who did so once in a moment of desperation.
While we are on the topic of definitions, as per the legal definition of assault, I did assault her.
Thanks for the effort anyway.
Yesterday I booked a vacation to Mexico first week of April for WAW and I. Not sure it is the right thing to do, but figured it really can't do any harm either?
Any thoughts?
Yeah, if you booked & paid for vacations for me, I'd probably come with you too ;-)
Yesterday I booked a vacation to Mexico first week of April for WAW and I. Not sure it is the right thing to do, but figured it really can't do any harm either?
Any thoughts?
Yeah, if you booked & paid for vacations for me, I'd probably come with you too ;-)
Hey now...you are the one who told me it was a good idea. I gotta admit that suprosed me.
If you looked as good in a bikini as my WAW does, I just might take you.....
may take two of us then....
Take both of us....
LOL!
Have a good time, regardless of what happens, make sure YOU enjoy YOURself since you're listening to me now ;-)
I'd be very careful if I were you.
Your w sounds like a drunk, a cutter, and extremely manipulative.
That crap about you "assaulting" her while she was asleep is pure B.S. too.
Oh My!!!
A "drunk" is someone who drinks every day and to the point of affecting their daily life. While my WAW has used alcohol as an escape in the past, she is not a drunk.
A "cutter" is someone who does so on a semi-regular basis. Not someone who did so once in a moment of desperation.
While we are on the topic of definitions, as per the legal definition of assault, I did assault her.
Thanks for the effort anyway.
Oh, hey, no problem.
Yeah, it does sound kinda bad when I say it out loud like that, but the ridiculous histrionics and disingenuousness are there none the less.
Why sleep naked with a man who "assaulted" her? The "childhood issues" seem awfully convenient and coincidentally directed only at you.
And P. S. Lots of drunks don't drink "every day" and the booze is probably affecting her "daily" life more than you realize.
Great idea Puppy. I'm not very concerned about needing any documentation, but still it's a great idea.
I am also going to keep any texts between us that could be important.
Yes and Yes. I used my notes here for the 9 months before my W said she wanted a D. My lawyer at that point told me to document everything each day - out interactions, when I had the kids on my own, what my W and I did, etc..
The day came when she tried to get a restraining order on me because she caught me tape recording our conversation (based on my lawyers advice). She only got a refrain order and I kept documenting everything. Every Monday night after she got the order she would lay in my bed with me and watch the Monday night line-up. I documented these in detail. When the court date came I handed the paperwork to my lawyer...he smiled and said for this kind of order she has to afraid of you. Obviously that's not the case.
My W is fighting me on 50/50 custody and we did a forensic psychological analysis. I went through all my old posts here and pulled out anything that was relevant...like how often and how much she drank. All this information was turned over the Psychologist.
You never know when you're going to need documentation. Just do it, don't let her know about it.
BetheMan,
I've read through your sitch. Read the last few pages with a little more closeness than the others.
This is the feeling I get from your posts - you are seeing what you think is progress, it's given you a high, you're beginning to think about pushing more under the guise of being a man, you are jumping at every opportunity to be with her when she asks (almost gives me the feeling that you are behaving like a servant who jumps up at the snap of a finger)
You might not like this:
I hadn't had sex with my W in almost a year between Feb 2008 through Dec 2009.In Dec 09 she came with me to my office party, we stayed the night and had sex. Man was I thinking we were moving forward. 4 weeks later she told me she wanted to get a D.
This past Christmas Eve, when I came home with the kids from my brother's house she kissed me. Told me she was lonely, etc.. she was filled with some booze. She even said, "I know you probably hate me but I still love you." She started making out with me and started grinding. It stopped and I eventually went to bed.I was detached enough to laugh at the whole thing and see it as a one time event with no meaning.
Don't put any stock into anything you see or hear. Believe me, I know first hand. It's total script and it's their roller coaster. While you're on it, you'll go up and down with her and it will confuse the [censored] out of you. You'll start asking - what's the right thing to do?
Should I do A to get C, or do I do B to get C?
I say, screw that. You can't predict what will happen if you do A or C. No one can. You seem to be looking for a way to behave and talk in order to achieve your goal of reconciliation. This is the same as DBing only for getting back together.
I imagine you did that in your first trip here, and now you have returned. You NEED to do this for YOURSELF.
Who are you? Where is the genuine you? Where is the you that will look and see?
Is she playing you - having her cake and eating it too? Is she really interested in dating you? Is she setting you up somehow? Is she feeling guilty and that's driving her actions? Was there OM who has left the picture so she is now turning to you as a parachute? Is she under the influence of the alcohol mind?
These are a listing of only a few possible scenarios. I'm sure I can think of dozens more. So which one is correct? lol
You can't know. You can't guess. You have no freakin idea what is driving it all. But here you are trying to make decisions to create some sort of effect. This is backwards.
You are putting way too much focus on her and the sitch. It's like robx said...what do you want to do? You are still desperate to be with her and that's why you jump every time she whistles. Then you run around telling everyone about how nice it is that she whistled like a little kid who just got a piece of candy.
I know how easy it is to get inflated when you see 'apparent' progress and how easy to get deflated when you see 'apparent' backsliding. I say apparent because sometimes forward is backward and backward is forward.
Now I could be completely off with what I have written and it's just my gut feeling that came up when I read through. Take what you can use and leave the rest.
A "drunk" is someone who drinks every day and to the point of affecting their daily life. While my WAW has used alcohol as an escape in the past, she is not a drunk.
Actually you just defined an alcoholic/alcohol abuser. Anyone who has to self medicate with drugs or alcohol to 'escape' is the very definition of an addict. Social drinkers don't drink to escape, but every alcohol abuser uses it to escape or cope with life.
It's not how much you drink but rather the reason you are drinking that creates the line between a social drinker and an abuser.
Alcohol is a symptom of a deeper underlying problem. It is not the cause, although it does cause a lot of damage, it is only a symptom.
I have not checked in for a quite a while.
Nothing new to report really. WAW and I are off to Mexico the day after tomorrow. I'll stop by with a post vacation report in a little over a week.
Take care all.
Back from week long vacation in Mexico with WAW.
We had a fun week and really enjoyed being with each other. A couple of times WAW wanted to talk about our R. I didn't think it was the right place or time, so kept it to as minimum as possible without seeming uncaring.
When we returned a couple days ago, we went right back to "normal". We drove home from the airport in her car, she dropped me off at home, said a quick "hi" to the kids and went home to her apartment. Later that night she and kids went out to dinner and I went to my divorce/separation support group.
No contact since then other than when I called her last night about some big news at work from my first day back.
Not sure how to proceed from here. But I do know one thing - after the week together, I want her to come home more than ever.
Hi BTM,
Glad you had a great time on your trip -- you deserve it.
Did you and your wife ML on the vacation? Sorry to be so blunt and personal, but since that has been such a major part of her allegations towards you, it needed to be ask, so I guess I'm just the horse's ass to ask it.
Puppy
Yes Sir we did. First time initiated by me and second by her. Got a "that was great" comment the next day too. Lots of kissing, touching, etc as well.
I think I can say with 100% certainty there is no longer any sexual issues between us - at least not at a level to be of any concern.
Hadn't seen WAW all week since we got back from vacation until today when she came over for the usual Sunday dinner with kids.
She was very kissy and huggy. I reciprocated but did not initiate.
I think at some point in the near future, it's going to be time to have a talk. I am almost ready for her to come home and would love to know if she is almost ready to do so.
Hadn't seen WAW all week since we got back from vacation until today when she came over for the usual Sunday dinner with kids.
She was very kissy and huggy. I reciprocated but did not initiate.
I think at some point in the near future, it's going to be time to have a talk. I am almost ready for her to come home and would love to know if she is almost ready to do so.
No.
That would be pursuing.
She left.
She will know when its time to come home for her,
that is if she wants to come home.
But you raise an interesting point.
Do you continue doing this routine you have in place and if so how long do you do it?
The question is how long do you want to do it?
When it gets to the point where you are tired of this routine, you will tell her that since she has made the decision to move out and live away from you and hasn't shown that she wants to come back and hasn't asked to come back, it's time to legally separate and divorce and time for you to move on with you life whatever that includes.
When it gets to the point where you are tired of this routine, you will tell her that since she has made the decision to move out and live away from you and hasn't shown that she wants to come back and hasn't asked to come back, it's time to legally separate and divorce and time for you to move on with you life whatever that includes.
Lead. Lead your life, lead your marriage and lead your family. Let your wife off the hook from making a choice. You decide for yourself and take action. Call her hand - she's either in or out. She wants you to lead. If she has to choose guess what it will be?
Lead. Lead your life, lead your marriage and lead your family. Let your wife off the hook from making a choice. You decide for yourself and take action. Call her hand - she's either in or out. She wants you to lead. If she has to choose guess what it will be?
Coach, could you go into more detail about this?
Had to share this one:
Saturday after work I called WAW to see if I could pick up some wings on my home (She's the GM at a restaurant). She says yes, so I go there and have a beer at the bar while waiting, talk to her for a minute or two (she was busy) get my wings and go home.
That night at 11:00 I am in bed just about to fall asleep when she comes in the bedroom. She takes off all her clothes and gets in next to me. "I was too busy to see you before, so thought I would come say hi". We talked and cuddled for about half an hour, then she said she was very tired, after working a 14 hour day, got dressed and went home to her apartment. She said she got naked since I hate when she smells "like restaurant".
The next day she came over for usual Sunday dinner with kids and there was virtually no mention of the night before.
Weirder by the day. Any thoughts?
yeah I have a thought,
she wanted to have sex except you didn't close the deal and just "cuddled" so she got bored and then left, she probably would have had sex and slept over.
Don't be afraid to initiate sex, in fact you should initiate sex, if you get rejected and are told "NO", that's ok and respect her when she tells you NO, but you had your wife come home after a long day of work unexpectedly and take off all her clothes and climb into bed with you to be near you.
yeah I have a thought,
she wanted to have sex except you didn't close the deal and just "cuddled" so she got bored and then left, she probably would have had sex and slept over.
Don't be afraid to initiate sex, in fact you should initiate sex, if you get rejected and are told "NO", that's ok and respect her when she tells you NO, but you had your wife come home after a long day of work unexpectedly and take off all her clothes and climb into bed with you to be near you.
There's a running gag that I started on the forum that any man who uses the word "cuddle" in their posts, probably won't successfully DB their marriage, and any man who actually uses it with his WIFE, definitely won't.
It was meant more as an observation than a joke, but I think there's a lot of truth in it.
Puppy
She said she got naked since I hate when she smells "like restaurant".
Next time you see her tell her she smells "like restaurant."
Then handle it.
There's a running gag that I started on the forum that any man who uses the word "cuddle" in their posts, probably won't successfully DB their marriage, and any man who actually uses it with his WIFE, definitely won't.
Foot rubbers and cuddlers!!! AAAUUGGGHHHHH!!!
BeTheMan, listen to these gents on the boards. They know their stuff..
I wish you all the very best!
yeah I have a thought,
she wanted to have sex except you didn't close the deal and just "cuddled" so she got bored and then left, she probably would have had sex and slept over.
Don't be afraid to initiate sex, in fact you should initiate sex, if you get rejected and are told "NO", that's ok and respect her when she tells you NO, but you had your wife come home after a long day of work unexpectedly and take off all her clothes and climb into bed with you to be near you.
I suppose I should have mentioned that there was a little foreplay, but since she was very tired, she said something like "I'm just too tired".
A couple days earlier, she met me at work to get her car looked at (I am Sales Manager at a dealership) and then went with me to pick out new glasses. We went for lunch after and while we were there, she said something like "I bought me...well us...something" "Do you want to know what it is"? I said no, I will wait until you invite me over to find out.
Obviously she was referring to some kind of sex toy or something, and I was of course interested - but I felt like playing the game.
yeah I have a thought,
she wanted to have sex except you didn't close the deal and just "cuddled" so she got bored and then left, she probably would have had sex and slept over.
Don't be afraid to initiate sex, in fact you should initiate sex, if you get rejected and are told "NO", that's ok and respect her when she tells you NO, but you had your wife come home after a long day of work unexpectedly and take off all her clothes and climb into bed with you to be near you.
I suppose I should have mentioned that there was a little foreplay, but since she was very tired, she said something like "I'm just too tired".
That was a test.
WOMEN TEST MEN.I think she wanted you to press on, and persist, and take her.
I could be wrong; at least about everything other than the
bold part.
Puppy
That was a test.
WOMEN TEST MEN.
I think she wanted you to press on, and persist, and take her.
Agreed, I failed that test a couple of times in the past, when (x)W days later even said herself it was a test. They can be so brutal sometimes.
dday101798 out [getting ready to go home and cuddle (x)W, maybe rub her feet, and would tear her apart if she came home smelling like food, THEN got naked..yummy, lol]
Silly me, when something smells like food, I
eat it.
I haven't checked in for some time.
Nothing new really. WAW continues to live in her apartment. She still comes to the house on Sundays to brign groceries and make dinner. Once in a while I visit her at her apartment. Neither of us (as far as I know) is dating anyone.
I now refer to her as my "kindawife" when referring to her.
Life goes on...
how are you holding up btm?
how is this working for you?
has it been difficult?
are you getting tired of the wait?
how has GAL'ing been for you, what's new with that?
how often do you see each other during the week aside from the sunday dinner?
I'm good. Sometimes I forget all about the situation.
I can't say it's working for me, but it's also isn't working. Just vanilla.
Not difficult at all really.
Not really GAL, but not wanting to either. I am very comfortable with my life the way it is.
We maybe see each other once a week other than Sunday. Text or talk on phone a couple times a week. Chat on FB once in a while.
She continues to want me in her life in some ways, but stil not ready to commit 100%. I'm ok with that for now, but one day we need to make a decision.
Friday night, WAW texted me 'wanna date tonight".
I went to her apartment and then we went to a small party a friend of hers. we went back to her apartment and she initiated sex.
We were lying in her bed afterwards and talking. She said some things like 'we may never be back together". "you are further away than ever", "you just don't get it". None of it was said in a spiteful way, but it seemed like an odd time.
Then she told me it was time for me to go home, kissed and hugged me and off I went.
Today, she came over for the usual Sunday family dinner and never said a word.
It just keeps getting weirder.
Man, that IS weird. Are there any legal ramifications to you ML again?
Puppy
I would say it's spot on.
She has her own place,
she's getting comfortable and used to the single life,
she's may even be indulging thoughts of a relationship with someone new,
she called/texted you on a friday to ask if you wanted to go out on a date and you were free and available just as she expected, you didn't play hard to get, you were easy, no mystery, you have sex, she "tags" you and she tells you after sex that "you just don't get it" and that you guys may never get back together - those aren't things people usually say after having sex.
Am I 100% correct?
No.
But I don't think that I'm that far off.
I think she is bored with what she has,
she wants a challenge,
she wants to chase someone,
she wants someone new,
and I think... you make this to easy for her.
it's just advice but when you study human nature,
you do pick up on things that happen and why they happen,
just like when a WAS says "I love you but I'm not in love with you", is that person having an EA or PA or planning one every single time when this statement is made? NO, you can't say that this is true 100% of the time but the percentage is very high, high enough to consider that something might be up.
Same thing with other things that WAS's do,
nothing anyone does is new anymore,
if someone does something,
chances are quite a few others have done it before as well, there are no "pioneers" here,
you just have to learn to spot the trends.
it's just advice but when you study human nature,
you do pick up on things that happen and why they happen,
just like when a WAS says "I love you but I'm not in love with you", is that person having an EA or PA or planning one every single time when this statement is made? NO, you can't say that this is true 100% of the time but the percentage is very high, high enough to consider that something might be up.
Same thing with other things that WAS's do,
nothing anyone does is new anymore,
if someone does something,
chances are quite a few others have done it before as well, there are no "pioneers" here,
you just have to learn to spot the trends.
Puppy
Nope. Nothing legal in any part of our separation.
Time for an update...
WAW continues to live in her apartment, but also continues to come over on Sundays. We usually grocery shop together, play Scrabble and have dinner with the kids.
The last 2 Sundays she has stayed later than usual. This past Sunday we played Wii with the kids until 10:00 and then she went home. She seems to be much more comfortable when at our house.
Her 40th birthday is this month. She wants me to attend the party being thrown by a friend. We went on vacation together in March and now I am taking her away for her birthday as well. Likely a week at a resort in Mexico again.
We talk several times a week, play Scrabble on FB, text and I visit her apartment once a week or so. It's been 2 weeks since we had sex, but she continues to hug, kiss, say she misses me, etc. There is no sign of OM at all.
I'm thinking I will continue with the status quo until after our vacation together and then tell her it's time to decide. If she's not ready to make a real effort into coming home, then I will back off tons and no longer let her cake eat. I won't be rude or mean, but will start acting like a friend and not a husband.
It's been 6 months since she moved out, and will be 7 by the time the vacation is over. That's enough time to decide what she really wants.
Any thoughts?
Still with the plan of being the nice guy until our upcoming vacation is over. WAW stays later on Sunday nights than before and doesn't seem to want to leave. I say nothing.
We are in contact almost daily via phone or text or in person. But, usually with her making the initial contact. Last night she asked me to meet her for wings and beer at her work when she was done. I had a long day, but did anyway. She thanked me twice for coming, kissed and hugged me when I left.
She wants me to attend a 40th bday dinner for her at her father's house and I likely will. It may be somewhat uncomfortable, but not really an issue. I am also going to a party the next day thrown by a work friend. And then a day or two later, I am taking her away to a resort in Mexico (or somewhere) as she did for my 40th. This will be our 3rd vacation together (one of them with the kids at XMAS) in the 7 months we have been separated. How many people can say that?
Weird huh!!!
I could be taking the wrong approach here, but when I step back and look at things objectively, they are much better than they were 7 months ago. Now, what will happen when I tell her it's time to work in one direction or the other...well, we will see.
Update/Journalling
WAW and I continue to live apart, but are still involved in each others lives.
Tomorrow night we are taking D18, her boyfriend and S16 to a play with tickets I bought WAW for Mother's Day. Next week is WAW's 40th birthday. I am taking her out for dinner on her birthday, then likely attending a dinner for her at her Dad's house a couple days later and then going to party for the day after that. Then the very next day, we are off to a small, couples only resort in Mexico for a week. (We were also in Mexico together in March)
If the topic of reconciliation does not comes up during vacation, I intend to discuss it when we return. If WAW is not prepared to make a genuine commitment to reconciliation, then I will change tactics completely and start to live my life without her as much as possible.
I will still be friendly, but no more dates, booty calls, etc.
The next couple of weeks will determine our future. A little scary, but it's time to move forward in one way or the other.
Any thoughts or feedback?
bro, we're busy, life is busy LOL!
Look I just read your last few posts,
why rock the boat?
Are you enjoying yourself?
Sounds like she doesn't mind spending time with you and you get some alone time too and maybe this is what you both needed, I think you should continue doing what you're doing, it's working, she's spending more time with you, she wants to be around you, she's inviting you to places and her family's home, she feels more comfortable around you.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Let it be.
This is a good thing for you.
This has given you time to examine yourself and your life and to improve areas that required improvement without the pressure of having to do those things to win your wife, you did them because it's your life to live.
Dates are good, enjoy the sex and just enjoy the time you have.
If this really isn't enough for you,
continue living your current life just don't be available for her when she asks you out or wants to come over, be somewhere else.
Back from the vacation to Mexico with WAW to celebrate her 40th birthday.
I said to some friends that I thought this trip would determine what would happen between us. Unfortunately, I was right.
While we never fought or anything, we just didn't commect all week. WAW was frustrated with me quite often and I was not comfortable a lot of the time. When we were away in April, and even since then, things seemed to be getting better. But, the vacation was a real step backwards.
D18 told me that WAW told her that "we won't be getting back together" - "your Dad hasn't changed" "it's too late".
I called WAW today and admitted that I didn't think it went well between us and to ask her what her thoughts are. She's still not willing to say it's 100% over and that there is no hope, but it's close. She again told me I can "date other people".
Unless something dramatic happens (and I have no idea what that could be) we will stay with our current plan to sell the house next June and proceed with the divorce.
The optimist in me says that still gives me almost a year, but the realist tells me that I simply am not the man she wants me to be, and can't make genuine, lasting changes to be that man either.
Only a few days before the trip, when I took WAW out for her b'day dinner, things felt good between us. But I think one week of being together 24/7 brought reality crashing to our world.
Today, I am sad, but accepting. Back to one day at a time.....
BTM, my deepest sympathies.
You've taken a big blow to the ego.
Keep on posting... otherwise I won't be able to 2x4 you later.
Not really a blow to the ego - more like a dose of reality. There really wasn't much left to my ego in regards to my relationship with my WAW before this, so not much to hit.
I wasn't posting much recently, so kinda actually miss the 2x4.
Maybe that was part of the problem - not focusing on my dbing enough and slowly sliding into contentment.
Man, all she did was take your $$$ and have a nice vacation. B*tch!!
Sorry, but she PISSES ME OFF.
I knew this would happen. Still, I'm real sorry, BTM. This sukks.
I don't think you should wait a full year -- your self-esteem will be SHOT by then. Have you seen Gucci's "Let them Go" thread yet? I think it's time to go Gucci/Robx on her azz...
Puppy
Back from the vacation to Mexico with WAW to celebrate her 40th birthday.
I said to some friends that I thought this trip would determine what would happen between us. Unfortunately, I was right.
While we never fought or anything, we just didn't commect all week. WAW was frustrated with me quite often and I was not comfortable a lot of the time. When we were away in April, and even since then, things seemed to be getting better. But, the vacation was a real step backwards.
D18 told me that WAW told her that "we won't be getting back together" - "your Dad hasn't changed" "it's too late".
I called WAW today and admitted that I didn't think it went well between us and to ask her what her thoughts are. She's still not willing to say it's 100% over and that there is no hope, but it's close. She again told me I can "date other people".
Unless something dramatic happens (and I have no idea what that could be) we will stay with our current plan to sell the house next June and proceed with the divorce.
The optimist in me says that still gives me almost a year, but the realist tells me that I simply am not the man she wants me to be, and can't make genuine, lasting changes to be that man either.
Only a few days before the trip, when I took WAW out for her b'day dinner, things felt good between us. But I think one week of being together 24/7 brought reality crashing to our world.
Today, I am sad, but accepting. Back to one day at a time.....
Let's review this:
- kissing her ass and making every change she wants you to make
- making sure the air doesn't move in whichever room she happens to be standing in
- buying dinners, gifts, trips seem to be working awesome
- she still complains about you even though you bust your a$$ to "be the man" she wants you to be
- you keep pursuing her even though she keeps you at respectable distance, whatever she can tolerate on any given day
Do you notice any of this?
Hmmmm.....
I do.
I'm sure a few others do as well.
"Be the man" she wants you to be,
during all this time that you've been climbing Mount Everest trying to jump through every f!@#$king hoop she lights on fire and puts before you what have you done to make yourself happy?
Seriously, with all this focus on her, what have you been doing to make you happy? I mean really happy, not just on the surface happy.
The person doing the rejecting is the one being pursued.
Your wife rejects you, you pursue her even more, I'm sure it's good to feel all this attention, she enjoys the ego boost she gets from pulling your strings but that gets boring for a woman and women tend to get bored easily especially with men that don't have a clue.
Get a clue.
You need a break from her.
You really do.
No more of those weekend dinners, tell her you need a break from her. What's been happening between the two of you hasn't been good for you, you've been thinking about it a lot lately and you're not sure you want this anymore. Tell her that it was rude for her to tell you that you can "date other people", that smacks of a very controlling attitude on her part and that's what she's tired of, easily controlling you, she gets her way all the time with you without any effort or challenge, you're conquered, she can have you at any time and you know what, that's way too sexy.... NOT!
Tell her you will decide when you're ready to date, and that you don't need her permission and it's really rude for her to say that to you that you can "date other people" - thanks I appreciate the permission. You tried and tried and tried to be this "perfect man" but guess what, that guy doesn't exist, I'm not perfect, Gucci's not perfect, Puppy's not perfect and you are not perfect.
You want things in your situation to change?
Change what you're doing.
No more weekend dinners at your place,
no more going out with her,
no more gifts,
no more taking her out for dinner,
you save those privileges for someone who WANTS to be with you and you don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you.
You've had an awakening, this isn't working for you anymore and it bothers you that it's taken this long for you to figure this out. Tell her she's right, this isn't going to work out, you could fly to the moon and back but unless she was willing to invest herself 110% into this process it would never work. You tell her that she can date other people, you're fine with it. If you haven't already, you tell her that you will speak to the kids about your situation and tell them that it's over and that you will get divorced next year and then sell the home.
Don't be mean, punitive, angry, a prick or an a$$hole - it's not necessary, it's not what a real man would do anyways. She doesn't want you, that's fine, you don't want her anymore either, there's only so much rejection you were going to take before the idea finally got through that thick skull of yours.
I know you guys have that routine where she comes over on saturdays or sundays to cook dinner for the family, tell her that can stop, no use in putting on a charade for the kids and it's not necessary for you either, you can make dinner for the kids or take them out - no worries. She should also stop getting used to coming over whenever she wants, she's moved out, you guys are separated, you should act like it, not this fake inbetween dimension you've been existing in. Do you have free access to her apartment? Probably not. So her free access to the home will change too and she will come over only if she's invited over, she should respect where you live as much as where you respect where you live. Maybe this also involves the kids going back & forth between the 2 locations, I'm not sure what the dynamic is at this point, something you will have to work out but seriously you can stop trying so hard to win her back, it's precisely what hasn't been working.
Plus this statement about allowing you "to date other people" is the 2nd or 3rd one I've read this week from different users on this forum and guess what, one of them just found out that his WAW that could never have been seeing/been interested in someone else is now texting and talking to some mystery man out of the blue. Interesting how this "permission" to date other people usually comes after they've started something with someone else.
Time for you to turn this around,
I think you can handle it.
This is quite the debate over in Infidelity right now. When to fight like hell for the marriage, throwing truth dart after truth dart, and when to just let them go and go Robx/Gucci on them.
You way want to stop by.
Puppy
I agree that it's time for something different.
Over the last few months, things really did seem to be getting better. As I said, as recently as a couple days before the trip things were still going well, and the approach I had been taking seemed to be working.
We are going to talk within the next few days. I plan on saying little, but making it succint. Something like:
"I felt like we were making progress, but the fact that there was "nothing there" when we were at a romantic, couples resort in paradise, makes me realize it's not getting better. If we can't be good together there, than we certainly can't be at home. I don't think I will ever be the man you want me to be. I won't change in the ways you want, because you don't want the real me and any changes would not be real. In fact, it's only when I am with you that I don't feel adequate. It's not good for me as a person to let someone else make me feel bad about myself. So...I think it's best for us to actually be separate during our separation. As for dating other people, I will do that when I choose to, and you suggesting that I do, is disrespectful of our relationship and to me. I need to spend time making me feel better and not worrying how everything I do will affect you and your reaction. This is what I need for me now."
I will be polite and calm, but not mean or spiteful.
I agree that it's time for something different.
Over the last few months, things really did seem to be getting better. As I said, as recently as a couple days before the trip things were still going well, and the approach I had been taking seemed to be working.
It depends on how you define "working," and your perspective -- in the middle of it all, with a long-term, shared history with your wife -- is certainly much different than ours as dispassionate outsiders, looking in.
From my personal archives:
On “Doing What Works”:
One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
Good point Puppy. When I say it was working, I really mean that she was spending time with me, kissing, cuddling, sex etc...
But we really have not made any progress towards a "healthier, longer-tem gain".
I forgot to note: last night D18 and I took a car I am thinking about buying for her to WAW's apartment for WAW to see. WAW was friendly all over again, hugged and kissed me goodbye and said "love you and miss you".
Maybe she's just crazy.......
Good point Puppy. When I say it was working, I really mean that she was spending time with me, kissing, cuddling, sex etc...
But we really have not made any progress towards a "healthier, longer-tem gain".
I forgot to note: last night D18 and I took a car I am thinking about buying for her to WAW's apartment for WAW to see. WAW was friendly all over again, hugged and kissed me goodbye and said "love you and miss you".
Maybe she's just crazy.......
No she's testing you,
to see how easily she can control you,
are you easy?
Sounds like it to me plus she did it in front of your kid as well, that could have been more for daughter than for you, just for appearance sake.
Be a challenge.
I would have asked her "what was that for? that's so unlike you?!" and given her a puzzled WTF type look as I walked away.
WAW was friendly all over again, hugged and kissed me goodbye and said "love you and miss you".
Maybe she's just crazy.......
No she is just doing what works to keep you in line. She gives you some crumbs and you think the main course is coming next. You are crazy to keep doing what you are doing and expecting it to work. She is waiting on you to lead so she can be attracted to you again.
"We need to talk.... I tried very hard to be this better man for you but no matter how hard I tried and no matter what changes I made I just didn't feel good enough for you and I don't like that feeling of not being good enough. I know now that along with my efforts that dinners, gifts, fancy romantic trips just aren't going to work and I'm ok with that now. I've decided that I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me. While I've been working on me hoping you would accept me I never asked you to change or to improve because I just accepted you as you are but it doesn't appear that you can accept me for who I am and It's not good for me as a person to let someone else make me feel bad about myself. So...I think it's best for us to actually be separate during our separation and we should probably stop the sunday dinner thing as well, it's time for reality to set in with our situation, we'll talk to the kids, they will understand as they've been getting used to this separation, I know I have. As for you suggesting dating other people, I think that's a great idea, I've been thinking about it for some time now and you should probably do the same. I'm sure you'll find a nice guy who will treat you good and I know I'll find a good woman to treat me great as well. Hopefully after all of the dust settles on all of this we can be friends."
I will be polite and calm, but not mean or spiteful.
Agree with Robx and Coach ^ -- this is ABSOLUTELY what she is doing, and they took the words right outta my mouth!
Puppy
Agree with Robx and Coach ^ -- this is ABSOLUTELY what she is doing, and they took the words right outta my mouth!
Puppy
Pinheads UNITE!
do the secret handshake, then sing the club song. HAROMPFF! HAROMPFF! HAROMPFF!
LMAO!
Give Pinhead a call, he's the founding member of the group ;-)
Pinhead Unite, oh my goodness, that's just too funny!!!
p.s. I was used to being called a cat toy, Pinhead is a refreshing change!
Big day today.
WAW is coming over later today as usual on Sunday to bring groceries for kids and I and make dinner. I plan on having "the talk" with her today.
I have my script almost prepared and will do my best to stick to it. I am going to tell her that things seemed to be getting better before we went away, but now I realize not truly better. We were not building a better relationship built on mutual respect and admiration - she was just being nicer to me and that made me feel good.
But...whenever she isn't doing so, I feel bad about myself. While I am quite confident in other areas of my life, I lose my confidence around her. I feel like I am always trying to please her, and that is no way for me to live. So, I need us to be separate during our separation - no more dating, dinners, touching. I want to remain friends and if possible, still be able to do things with our kids at some point, but right now I need to let her go completely, I need space and I need to focus on my life without her.
I will admit that I still care for her, but since I will never be the man she wants me to be, we will never be truly happy together, so really being separate is the best solution.
I will do my best to say all of this in a polite, caring friendly manner and not be bitter or angry. Just accepting of the reality that became so clear to me during our trip to Mexico last week.
I am finally willing to let go.
I am a little nervous and want to make sure I say things the right way at the right time. Cross your fingers for me.
I have my script almost prepared and will do my best to stick to it. I am going to tell her that things seemed to be getting better before we went away, but now I realize not truly better. We were not building a better relationship built on mutual respect and admiration - she was just being nicer to me and that made me feel good.
But...whenever she isn't doing so, I feel bad about myself. While I am quite confident in other areas of my life, I lose my confidence around her. I feel like I am always trying to please her, and that is no way for me to live. So, I need us have decided to be separate during our separation - no more dating, dinners, touching. I want to remain friends civil and if possible, still be able to do things with our kids at some point, but right now I need to feel it's best to let her go completely, I need space and I need to focus on my life without her. make some decisions.
I will admit that I still care for her, but since I will never be the man she wants me to be, we will never be truly happy together, so really being separate is the best solution.
BTM,
Consider dropping the parts I've struck thru above. They sound needy. You want to convey a "I've been thinking, and I've decided that -- " mentality, not a "it hurts too much to be around you" one.
Decisive strength, not wounded guy.
Good luck.
Puppy
Puppy...thanks for the editing.
But...much ado about nothing. For the moment anyway.
WAW did come over yesterday, but was in great pain due to a severe arthritis flare. I just didn't think it was a good day for an R talk of any kind, unless she brought it up. When she's in so much pain she can barely walk, she is understandably not in a great mood to begin with.
Besides, I have been thinking that if I said something right after the vacation, she just might see it as a knee jerk reaction, not something I have really thought about. So, I am going to start with consistent DB actions and then when she comments, or soon regardless, I will let know what I have decided.
look at you, thinking before acting, not just REACTING emotionally, you have experienced some growth here, nice job BTM ;-)
And I thought you would call me a chicken!
Since recently, WAW and I were behaving like a dating couple, it's time for me to stop all that. I will remain friendly, upbeat and positive, but would I date another woman if she wanted me to be a different person and said there was no future?
Nope.
So..back to consistent dbing action and then have "the talk" when it comes up.
Well.....the talk came up.
Like a kick right to the stomach. WAW and I spoke briefly and she clearly stated she is never coming home. For some reason, the vacation made her 100% sure there was no hope. At least she's being honest.
After 5 years (off and on) of dbing, I still refuse to give up. I still want my marriage and family together and will continue to fight until I feel differently or die.
Still no lawyers involved, still no separation or divorce papers. I've heard "I'm done" etc before and we are still not divorced today. I certainly have a much bigger hill to climb than I thought I did a couple weeks ago, but as long as there is a 1% chance, I refuse to give up.
Time for something different. I have no idea what to do next, but quitting isn't it.
Have you considered the Robx/Gucci "letting her go" approach?
I have Puppy.
In fact, when we spoke via phone today I told her it's time for me to do just that. I somehow need to find a way to do that, while still being involved with each other somewhat. Even now, she still wants to spend some time together and remain "friends". The optimist in me says that as long as we remain somewhat involved in each others lives, there is a chance. I know many would say it's time to do otherwise, but my gut just doesn't agree. So many people would be thrilled to have any time with their WAS.
I am trying to let her go in my mind, but it's just not real. At the basis of every thought and action is my desire to have her here with me for the rest of our lives.
She is truly my favourite person in the world. I am honestly lost at this point and have no idea what to do next. I have NO interest in dating others or anything like that. I think it's possible to get back to where we were a few weeks ago with some minor tinkering. I think....but I really don't know.
If you go this route, I would STRONGLY suggest you NOT do the "remain good friends" route, nor continually let her know that you do NOT have any interest in dating.
Either one of those things make the task twice as hard; BOTH of those stances, simultaneously, will damned near kill your chances.
If you are ready to let her go, then you really let her go.
Puppy
A couple things I need to remember:
1. No legal stuff at all.
2. I am still in my house with my kids and plan to be here for 2 years - and WAW agrees.
3. I still don't believe there is OM.
4. WAW wants to remain a part of my life - "crumbs" - yes - but something
5. There is no time limit at this point.
And most importantly....I 100% refuse to give up.
If you go this route, I would STRONGLY suggest you NOT do the "remain good friends" route, nor continually let her know that you do NOT have any interest in dating.
Either one of those things make the task twice as hard; BOTH of those stances, simultaneously, will damned near kill your chances.
If you are ready to let her go, then you really let her go.
Puppy
Honestly - I am not truly ready. And doubt I ever will be. So...back to the former status quo???? I was somewhat happy....
As long as you are NEVER willing to give up, not matter WHAT she does . . .
And as long as you are happy with crumbs . . .
Then crumbs you shall get, and you will never get her back.
It's basic "push/pull" human dynamics, BTM. Be willing to take JUST ANYTHING, and JUST ANYTHING you will get. Let her go, and begin to move in the other direction, and you MIGHT just have a chance.
Puppy
As long as you are NEVER willing to give up, not matter WHAT she does . . .
And as long as you are happy with crumbs . . .
Then crumbs you shall get, and you will never get her back.
It's basic "push/pull" human dynamics, BTM. Be willing to take JUST ANYTHING, and JUST ANYTHING you will get. Let her go, and begin to move in the other direction, and you MIGHT just have a chance.
Puppy
Truth Puppy - At this point I am happy with HER crumbs. Seriously. And JUST ANYTHING feels good.
I still believe that with my WAW, I need to somehow balance being a friend etc with letting her go. Whenever I attempt to do otherwise, she sees it as me only wanting to be involved with her if it's on my terms - if there is sex involved etc. I somehow need to make her feel that I love, like and want her - all of her. But...magically at the same time let her feel like I have let her go as my wife. Only then will I have any hope of her wanting to be my wife.
I just read my previous post. Damn - that sounds impossible.
But again - I will never give up. My 5 years here is proof of that. And 5 years later, there is no divorce and there have been some great moments, weeks and months during that time.
And in another 5 years, you'll still be here, posting the same things.
It's your sitch -- you can do what you want, obviously. But it's not going to work.
Puppy
And in another 5 years, you'll still be here, posting the same things.
It's your sitch -- you can do what you want, obviously. But it's not going to work.
Puppy
Sadly, Puppy, five more years of the way things were just prior to the vacation would be (to me) better than losing her completely. Until I am truly ready to risk losing her, I may never be able to do what
will work.
Until I am truly no longer willing to accept her crumbs, I will never be able to make genuine changes. Right now, her crumbs satisfy me. Yes, I know it's ridiculous, but it's the truth.
Oh...to move past that......
BTM, if you're truly happy with the status quo, why are you here?
BTM, if you're truly happy with the status quo, why are you here?
I'm not truly happy with the status quo - but I was moderately happy with the way things were going up until our vacation, where no one particular thing happened - but my WAW simply decided she was done.
Today I am dying inside all over again. Even the day she moved out there was some hope for the future. Now I can just barely breathe.
I am going to see if my family doctor will put me back on Prozac (I was only on it for a short period around the time of her move out). I an also hoping he will give me sleeping pills again. I got very little sleep last night and tonight would be worse, if I don't take a pill. Thankfully I have a few. I have not had to take them in about 6 months. Also, trying to get in to see the counselor I saw months ago as well. I may be an absolute mess, but at least I know it.
I am trying to appear ok in front of my kids. They don't need to know their Dad is destroyed. I just don't know how I am going to get through it again - this time even worse with no hope.
I miss her so bad it aches inside.
I need some advice on this:
WAW bought a puppy a couple months ago, because she was lonely in her apt. After buying the puppy, WAW had to start working tons. It's going to be that way all summer. The pupy was upset at being home alone all the time, so I agreed the kids and I would look after her sometimes at our house. Well...now she is there ALL the time - along with the cat, dog, and bird we had before she walked away.
Since WAW told me yesterday that she is never coming home, I feel I should no longer be looking after the puppy. It is not trained at all and chews things and messes in the house. I don't wany MY house being ruined and I feel like I am being used.
Would this be a good time to stand up and tell WAW I want the dog out? I said we would remain friends, but I wouldn't let another friend's dog wreck my house. Is this an opportunity to show WAW a small hint of reality - or will I just come across as petty?
yup, set a boundary, you aren't the pet shop, the pet is her responsibility, have her take the puppy back.
you're allowed,
the fact that you're asking us just indicates that you're afraid to just say it like it is with her,
mind you, you don't seem to notice that your wife isn't afraid to say it like it is with you, ie. "not moving back home"
You don't have to be a prick or an a$$hole,
just say it like it is.
The puppy isn't your pet, it's time she brought him back to her place, you already have enough animals at your place that she left behind that she doesn't take care of, it's not fair to you for her to just drop off another animal at your place, time for her to take the puppy back asap.
don't get sucked into an argument,
this has nothing to do with her statement from the previous day about not coming back home, this is only about the puppy and her taking care of it since she bought, it's her responsibility, not yours, and your kids.
Got it Rob. You just never give up on me.
I will make the call. Explain why I want the dog gone and then end the conversation. No arguing, no other conversation
I called immediately after typing the last post.
Conversation lasted less than 2 minutes. She of course, said "Oh Great! - You won't admit it, but this is beause of our conversation yesterday". I calmly said, it's been bothering me for a while, but I just can't have her their anymore.
WAW said "fine! Give me a couple days. I need to put an ad in the paper". I said "ok" and "thank you" and ended the call.
Wow.....I have tiny little balls! I know it pissed her off, and might even upset my D18 a little. But, I really don't want the dog there, and it's no longer my responsibility - especially after yesterday.
Since WAW told me yesterday that she is never coming home, I feel I should no longer be looking after the puppy. It is not trained at all and chews things and messes in the house. I don't wany MY house being ruined and I feel like I am being used.
You want crumbs? Them the crumbs.
Out of curosity, why don't you take the time to train the dog yourself? or give Cesar a call?
I called immediately after typing the last post.
Conversation lasted less than 2 minutes. She of course, said "Oh Great! - You won't admit it, but this is beause of our conversation yesterday". I calmly said, it's been bothering me for a while, but I just can't have her their anymore.
WAW said "fine! Give me a couple days. I need to put an ad in the paper". I said "ok" and "thank you" and ended the call.
Wow.....I have tiny little balls! I know it pissed her off, and might even upset my D18 a little. But, I really don't want the dog there, and it's no longer my responsibility - especially after yesterday.
not a couple of days, NOW.
She bought the puppy originally and had it in her apartment. The reason she dropped it off at your place wasn't because the pet was lonely, it was because it was making a mess at her place, she can take the dog back today.
You're allowed to say this.
I would go so far as to say it's required that you say this.
Never mind her ad in the paper, that's her problem, not yours, tell her to pick up the dog today.
Give her some crumbs to chew on.
Since WAW told me yesterday that she is never coming home, I feel I should no longer be looking after the puppy. It is not trained at all and chews things and messes in the house. I don't wany MY house being ruined and I feel like I am being used.
You want crumbs? Them the crumbs.
Out of curosity, why don't you take the time to train the dog yourself? or give Cesar a call?
Huh!
You mean her dog wrecking my house is somehow crumbs?
Why would I train her dog? I hope you were being sarcastic. Maybe even hinting that I would normally do that for her.
I called immediately after typing the last post.
Conversation lasted less than 2 minutes. She of course, said "Oh Great! - You won't admit it, but this is beause of our conversation yesterday". I calmly said, it's been bothering me for a while, but I just can't have her their anymore.
WAW said "fine! Give me a couple days. I need to put an ad in the paper". I said "ok" and "thank you" and ended the call.
Wow.....I have tiny little balls! I know it pissed her off, and might even upset my D18 a little. But, I really don't want the dog there, and it's no longer my responsibility - especially after yesterday.
Yes YOU do have tiny balls,
so afraid to lose her you supplicate her with gifts, trips, dinners, and now dog watching.
You were told all of this in the beginning by several of us but didn't want to listen, you wanted to continue being "YOU" hoping she would love "YOU" again but the person "YOU" are isn't someone she can love again in the way that you want.
Now if YOU were to grow some bigger balls, well then maybe it might make a difference but at this point with so much time passed in your situation, who knows what can happen, there are no guarantees in any of the situations on these forums.
Methinks let her go, no more dinners on sunday, have a nice life, it wasn't working out, not really what I'm looking for anymore, you want someone who wants you and she isn't it so maybe it's time to start dating?
Up to you.
Either that or quit your job and run a professional dog watching/babysitting service. If it's profitable let us know ;-)
Yeah, I am in the camp with "Come get your danged dog now, woman. I am tired of cleaning up yours and his messes.".
You know why? Because it is true. You just won't say it.
Since WAW told me yesterday that she is never coming home, I feel I should no longer be looking after the puppy. It is not trained at all and chews things and messes in the house. I don't wany MY house being ruined and I feel like I am being used.
You want crumbs? Them the crumbs.
Out of curosity, why don't you take the time to train the dog yourself? or give Cesar a call?
Huh!
You mean her dog wrecking my house is somehow crumbs?
Why would I train her dog? I hope you were being sarcastic. Maybe even hinting that I would normally do that for her.
You mentioned the other day you were happy with crumbs,
well those are crumbs, as in "crumby".
Moral of the story: be care what you ask for, you just might get it.Is it so hard for you to fathom that these are crumbs?
Why?
Not sure if Steve was being sarcastic about the dog training comment, I thought it was funny ;-)
Nice guy syndrome:
Yes I will:
- buy you gifts
- take you out for dinner
- take you on trips
- settle for crap behavior
- let you come home when YOU want to on YOUR schedule, not really taking into account my own life
- watch your dog that YOU originally bought for yourself and keep it at MY home and let it $hit all over MY house
- settle for crumbs
.... because I'm a nice guy and won't stand up to you because I have tiny balls and I'm afraid to lose you... but at least I'm honest. Will you love me now?
Why would I train her dog?
less than 24 hours ago:
Even now, she still wants to spend some time together and remain "friends". The optimist in me says that as long as we remain somewhat involved in each others lives, there is a chance.
It would be impressive if you could achieve "pack leadership."
btw. i never "hint" at anything and I still feel bad I pissed off Mindblank as bad as I did. But I do like metaphors. I'll see if I could come up with a fish story on lunch for you
the "pack leadership" thing WAS a hint.
I called her again and said I don't want to wait days. She could damage soemthing in that time. I got "you're being an a$$hole" My response "I don't want to look after your dog and don't want people coming to look at her ar my house". "It's my house too". All I said was "I don't want to get into that now".
She said "I'll get her now then". My response: "thank you".
I can't see any of this helping to DB in any way, but at least I know I stood up for myself and she get a tiny dose of reality.
BTM as long as you maintain the attitude that she's the only woman in the world for you, you will never have her or anyone else.
You can try to subdue these feelings and hide them but to your wife, it's not attractive, she can see through you and pretty much knows your intentions and at this point in her life, isn't attracted to you because you still come off needy & clingy.
BeTheMan....
I can't see any of this helping to DB in any way, but at least I know I stood up for myself and she get a tiny dose of reality.
Dude, she dumped HER responsibility off on YOU. She got the danged dog, and then dumped it just like she dumped you, and I guess she figured you are such a chump, she'd treat you worse than a servant.
If you can't see why her taking responsibility for HER actions is good, then we cannot help you.
This is what grown ups do. They don't shirk their responsibilities and dump them off on others who they treat with no respect. That is what badly raised teenagers do.
BTM
No woman will really respect a man who lets HER dog crap all over his house. She knows that you will do anything for her. The untrained dog thing is just not an option. Take it from this woman. Let her know it isn't on.
It is all to do with your self respect. There is a metaphor in the dog messing all over your house. I really hope I don't sound cruel but I am a woman and know how we think some guys will put up with anything.!!!
The (dog) crap is really hitting the fan...
WAW just called me to say she is picking up the dog today...and that now she will not be coming over Sunday as usual to grocery shop and make dinner for family. She said she will give D18 (who now works with her) some money for groceries though. I said "I didn't say you couldn't come over Sunday, but that's your choice. Ok."
Not the end of the world, I can drive to the store and I cam cook something. At least she's still keeping up her end of our financial agreement.
WAW is 100% pissed off! This should be expected right? And some one is going to explain to me how it's a good thing?
[
Truth Puppy - At this point I am happy with HER crumbs. Seriously. And JUST ANYTHING feels good.
I still believe that with my WAW, I need to somehow balance being a friend etc with letting her go. Whenever I attempt to do otherwise, she sees it as me only wanting to be involved with her if it's on my terms - if there is sex involved etc. I somehow need to make her feel that I love, like and want her - all of her. But...magically at the same time let her feel like I have let her go as my wife. Only then will I have any hope of her wanting to be my wife.
I've mentioned before that I don't think every wife that wants to leave a marriage is a WAW and should be treated as such. I read as much of this thread as I could but not all, so please forgive me if I got something wrong here. If it's correct that she walked away from her children as well as you, (not once, but twice?) there could be something more wrong with her than with your R and until she gets that straightened out, it may be impossible to repair the relationship. Leaving the children suggests a detachment much more severe than just loosing a connection with her husband for the usual reasons that a WAW loses her connection with her H.
I hope you can work this out.
I said "I didn't say you couldn't come over Sunday, but that's your choice. Ok."
Where is your GAL?
Make plans for Sunday and every Sunday from now on. You're going to be busy.
WAW is 100% pissed off! This should be expected right? And some one is going to explain to me how it's a good thing?
Who cares? Let's say your kids get their own appartment. They adopt a dog, and then decide they don't want to take care of it, so they just want to dump it on you.
How is allowing that good? It isn't.
Who cares if they get mad if you say no? It wasn't your responsibility.
They will get over being mad at you for not bailing them out of their responsibilities. They won't get over thinking you are an idiot if you allow yourself to be treated badly.
How can your wife ever respect you if you live in fear of her? She's the one with the balls in this family.
I have real issues with the GAL aspect and always have. I'm just not into much. And now if she's not coming over on Sundays, it really doesn't matter. I can be at home - just the way I like.
The reason I said "I didn't say you couldn't come over" was to make it clear that it was her choice/reaction to my request to take the dog.
I'm sure she sees this as punishing me - since you won't look after my dog, you don't get to see me. I won't be your friend if you don't do what I want.
Rob - you said so much time has passed. I think too much has passed to ever save my marriage for real. I simply made too many mistakes. I would "man up" once in a while, but always slide back into being the nice guy as soon as she showed any affection for me. Or being even more honest - as soon as there was any sex or hint of it.
And now if she's not coming over on Sundays, it really doesn't matter. I can be at home - just the way I like.
Way to 180! (sarcasm intended).
Look, it's time to move out of your comfort zone a bit. Go to church, take the kids on a day trip, go shopping, landscape the yard, take the dogs for a trip to the dog park, do something you don't do all of the time.
I can see you are going to resist this. This is your opportunity to grow. You can let opportunity go by, but then don't complain about the bed you made.
[/quote]
Quote:
I said "I didn't say you couldn't come over Sunday, but that's your choice. Ok."
No, no, no. Where is your GAL?
Make plans for Sunday and every Sunday from now on. You're going to be busy.[quote]
You ARE going to have the best Sundays ever!!
You ARE going to make it so she is going to MISS those Sundays with you and her family!
When she talks to the kids, they will tell her you are doing fine.
There is something to be said for knowing who you are and what you like to do. You like to stay at home. Fine. But you are being totally predictable to your wife and staying in your little box. At home.
Apart from the message it sends to her, changing up your routine may just give you a new perspective on life. As TH says, its a time to explore new things and discover things about yourself that you don't know. Could be fun if you let it.
take the dogs for a trip to the dog park
Bad Example.
The (dog) crap is really hitting the fan...
WAW just called me to say she is picking up the dog today...and that now she will not be coming over Sunday as usual to grocery shop and make dinner for family. She said she will give D18 (who now works with her) some money for groceries though. I said "I didn't say you couldn't come over Sunday, but that's your choice. Ok."
PERFECT. Next!
Puppy
Resources: getting out of the house, having fun, day trips, anything new.
Odd USA attractions Trip Advisor
WAW is 100% pissed off! This should be expected right? And some one is going to explain to me how it's a good thing?
Yep -- 100% expected.
BTM, some of us have been "explaining" to you ever since you started posting here. You don't seem to want to listen. But just for grins, I'll take one more crack at it, and give you three references:
Women tie their feelings of LOVE very closely with their feelings of RESPECT. She can't respect you if you literally take CRAP from her, so by doing so, you are slowly killing any remaining LOVE she has for you.
(ref.: "Love and Respect," by Eggerichs)
Furthermore, the supplicating, "Nice Guy" behaviors also are NOT attractive, and slowly erode your own self-esteem.
(ref.: "No More Mr. Nice Guy," and "Hold Onto Your N.U.T.S."
Puppy
The (dog) crap is really hitting the fan...
WAW just called me to say she is picking up the dog today...and that now she will not be coming over Sunday as usual to grocery shop and make dinner for family. She said she will give D18 (who now works with her) some money for groceries though. I said "I didn't say you couldn't come over Sunday, but that's your choice. Ok."
PERFECT. Next!
Puppy
Perfect? Really?
I get the point of her respecting me etc. But..so many people here would be thrilled to be where she and and I were a few weeks ago: dating, talking, vacations, sex, etc. WAW had not ruled out comign home. And it really seemed like there was a possibility.
And now....we are the exact opposite.
perfect?
BTM,
I would not be "thrilled" to be where you were a couple of weeks ago. You have not even been living together with your W and as a family. It is not real the life you think you have had with W until she is actually back at home and you are truly working on the marriage. It seems to me more of a mirage than something real.
It is good that you are trying to move out of LIMBO some.
Perfect? Really?
I get the point of her respecting me etc. But..so many people here would be thrilled to be where she and and I were a few weeks ago: dating, talking, vacations, sex, etc. WAW had not ruled out comign home. And it really seemed like there was a possibility.
And now....we are the exact opposite.
perfect?
I meant your RESPONSE to the dog situation was handled perfectly.
BTM, you're making the same mistake a lot of others make in that you're judging what's "working" by your wife's MOOD. Often, a wayward spouse is nicest to you when they are having their way with you, keeping them safely spinning on their "stick," and they've got you RIGHT where they want you, resistance-free.
If you gauge your decisions by how "mad" it makes her, instead of by my standard of "What is THE RIGHT THING TO DO in this situation? What is the thing that God Himself would have me do, if He were standing right in front of me?" . . . then you're screwed.
Puppy
I get it Puppy. Somehow I have to remember that. Right now, I am sitting at my desk at work, scared beyond belief that it really is finally over.
I guess, all I can do is take it day by day, do my best to GAL, be upbeat in fromt of my kids and see what she does next. I have this feeling she is going to get nasty and start fighting something fierce.
I kinda liked that mirage we were living in. But...even I know it was not the way to live the rest of my life.
This is going to hurt really bad again, but I lived through it last time and I will this time too. I'm tired....
Would it help if I told you your SON is watching all of this, and is forming the basis of how he is going to deal with the really difficult challenges HE will face in his life?
Puppy
Would it help if I told you your SON is watching all of this, and is forming the basis of how he is going to deal with the really difficult challenges HE will face in his life?
Puppy
It may not help Puppy. But it sure does give me a great reason to handle things like a true gentlemen and with respect.
I get it Puppy. Somehow I have to remember that. Right now, I am sitting at my desk at work, scared beyond belief that it really is finally over.
You have to let go of the fear. Fear will not lead you to do the right thing, and doing the right thing is all that matters here. Feel it, then let it go, and do not let it determine your actions. Do the right thing.
If you play along with her agenda, she's already moved out, and she will eventually find somebody (if she hasn't already) to replace you. That's her agenda: to go on with her life without you eventually, and she isn't going to become a nun.
So... playing along with what makes her happy all of the time is leading you to divorce anyway. It's pointless.
That doesn't mean you have to be nasty. You can be polite and civil, but you should not let somebody take advantage of you and treat you poorly. On top of diminishing their respect for you, you lose self-respect when you do that.
Shake things up. Start making plans with your kids on the weekend that do not involve her. Make plans for yourself. Every little GAL effort helps.
Remember:
1. Sleep well.
2. Excercise daily
3. Try new things.
4. Make taking care of your kids and yourself your top priority for now.
Would it help if I told you your SON is watching all of this, and is forming the basis of how he is going to deal with the really difficult challenges HE will face in his life?
Puppy
and sadly repeat the same f!@#$king mistakes and then to get mad at you one day and say why couldn't you have taught me better, I'm your son, it was your responsibility!
And he will be right, it will be your fault.
He will become the same man you are right now with a wife that doesn't love him and doesn't want to be with him unless he's receiving positive influences from other sources.
Would it help if I told you your SON is watching all of this, and is forming the basis of how he is going to deal with the really difficult challenges HE will face in his life?
Puppy
and sadly repeat the same f!@#$king mistakes and then to get mad at you one day and say why couldn't you have taught me better, I'm your son, it was your responsibility!
And he will be right, it will be your fault.
He will become the same man you are right now with a wife that doesn't love him and doesn't want to be with him unless he's receiving positive influences from other sources.
Take this to heart! I have 2 daughters, and I've been a poor role model for them. I became a sedentary, lazy, controlling SOB. Now I try and act like a kind, confident man who they'll love AND respect. I don't want them dating and marrying someone like the man I used to be.
of course it's true,
children learn from their parents,
it's not so different from animals.
It's a survival mechanism,
watch your parents, record their actions in your brain, emulate those actions, become them so that they can grow to be adults, mate with another adult, pass on genes/have children
wash - rinse - repeat
Would it help if I told you your SON is watching all of this, and is forming the basis of how he is going to deal with the really difficult challenges HE will face in his life?
Puppy
It may not help Puppy. But it sure does give me a great reason to handle things like a true gentlemen and with respect.
Don't confuse gentlemanlyness with fear, nor respect with timidity.Yes, be a gentleman and be respectful. But teach your children to work thru difficult problems by FACING their fears, steeling themselves, and acting with true COURAGE and FORTITUDE, despite their fears.
Puppy
how many times has a parent heard from their young children,
"when I grow up I want to be just like mommy/daddy"
- there's a reason for it,
it's a built-in instinct,
we're programmed to record & emulate the behavior of our parents so that we learn to grow & adapt to our environments, so that we survive and flourish.
Ever notice how much fun it is for your little ones to play fight with each other or even more so with their parents, someone they can test their strength on, climb all over, pull & tug on, growl at, wrestle, etc.
Ever notice while working on a home reno project, and little ones are around, "hey mom/dad can I help paint?",
dad can I help you while you're working with your tools?
what tool is this?
what does it do?
Can I hold the hammer, can I swing it?
Can I hold the drill? I want to drill a hold, screw this in, etc.
I want to hold that wrench, I want to tighten this bolt?
I want to use this screwdriver.
I want to use the computer.
Children have a built-in need to learn,
it's a requirement, it's part of their growth process,
their brains at that stage are literally designed to soak up vast amounts of knowledge.
That's why having children learn multiple languages at an early age is a very good idea, their brains will learn much easier at a young age than they would if they had to perform the same learning task as an adult.
That's why I have mentioned in other threads,
during this process and in life in general,
be the best person you can be for you first & foremost and then be a great parent because you achieve the latter by doing the first.
If you lead and live a great life, and be a great parent, you will pretty much guarantee your children will learn the same from you.
of course it's true,
children learn from their parents,
it's not so different from animals.
It's a survival mechanism,
watch your parents, record their actions in your brain, emulate those actions, become them so that they can grow to be adults, mate with another adult, pass on genes/have children
wash - rinse - repeat
I grew up watching two parents who respected each other, who made joint decisions and who had lots of sex and fun together.
Of course I expected to have a wife who I'm enjoying life with and having tons of intimacy.
Don't confuse gentlemanlyness with fear, nor respect with timidity.
Yes, be a gentleman and be respectful. But teach your children to work thru difficult problems by FACING their fears, steeling themselves, and acting with true COURAGE and FORTITUDE, despite their fears.
Exactly. And yet... we see so many here cower into total submission when D and seperation are thrown at them... which is exactly what you don't want to do.
The weird thing about detatching is that divorce--if it comes to that--doesn't really scare you anymore. You want to divorce me? OK, that doesn't scare me, and I no longer ask myself how you could do that because I know I can do that too, and it really isn't hard (or the right way to treat somebody, IMO).
of course it's true,
children learn from their parents,
it's not so different from animals.
It's a survival mechanism,
watch your parents, record their actions in your brain, emulate those actions, become them so that they can grow to be adults, mate with another adult, pass on genes/have children
wash - rinse - repeat
I grew up watching two parents who respected each other, who made joint decisions and who had lots of sex and fun together.
Of course I expected to have a wife who I'm enjoying life with and having tons of intimacy.
it's possible your wife had other ideas ;-)
- there are no guarantees in life,
it's just a whole lot easier dealing with life if you have the tools ready at your side to do so ;-)
of course it's true,
children learn from their parents,
it's not so different from animals.
It's a survival mechanism,
watch your parents, record their actions in your brain, emulate those actions, become them so that they can grow to be adults, mate with another adult, pass on genes/have children
wash - rinse - repeat
I grew up watching two parents who respected each other, who made joint decisions and who had lots of sex and fun together.
Of course I expected to have a wife who I'm enjoying life with and having tons of intimacy.
it's possible your wife had other ideas ;-)
- there are no guarantees in life,
it's just a whole lot easier dealing with life if you have the tools ready at your side to do so ;-)
Pass by some of these potential "ideas" robx.
One is that she wanted to get those kids out of me and make me a "babys daddy". Once the kids where there, no reason to be my wife anymore.
One is that she wanted to get those kids out of me and make me a "babys daddy". Once the kids where there, no reason to be my wife anymore.
There are actual scientific discussions/investigations currently in place that tend to agree with this train of thought, sorry to say it but some of the science available tends to agree with this.
One is that she wanted to get those kids out of me and make me a "babys daddy". Once the kids where there, no reason to be my wife anymore.
DLS,
No offense, but you sound a bit bitter. I am in no position to judge you, but in the past I read comments from you where you absolutely recommended dating before the divorce was final, and I wondered how much of your bitterness (etc) is ego-driven?
Life throws things at you. Don't let it make you a bitter person. Let it make you a better person
One is that she wanted to get those kids out of me and make me a "babys daddy". Once the kids where there, no reason to be my wife anymore.
DLS,
No offense, but you sound a bit bitter. I am in no position to judge you, but in the past I read comments from you where you absolutely recommended dating before the divorce was final, and I wondered how much of your bitterness (etc) is ego-driven?
Life throws things at you. Don't let it make you a bitter person. Let it make you a better person
I'm not bitter. Perhaps some of my earlier posts were ego driven. Still I know while it may not sound nice, if you are left all alone in a situation and the spouse is doing their own thing, perhaps after a certain amount of time dating will help to maintain yourself. Dating is really going to help your confidence.
I'm not a fan of being forced to be celibate because of my spouses choices.
One is that she wanted to get those kids out of me and make me a "babys daddy". Once the kids where there, no reason to be my wife anymore.
There are actual scientific discussions/investigations currently in place that tend to agree with this train of thought, sorry to say it but some of the science available tends to agree with this.
What also is truth, is what is the particular person "used" to seeing. What is "normal" to them. Perhaps you got with someone where a stable relationship format is just not normal.
I'm not a fan of being forced to be celibate because of my spouses choices.
so you have extra-marital sex? or are you just a monday morning quarterback?
I'm not a fan of being forced to be celibate because of my spouses choices.
so you have extra-marital sex? or are you just a monday morning quarterback?
Not yet. Thinking having her sign a notarized document stating that she agrees with me taking care of myself since she does not want to.
DLS -
I hardly post anymore, but your thread caught my eye. I was, where you are, for 2 1/2 years. I served my H last Wednesday. Forced celibacy does nothing but force a separation of mind, spirit, and marriage. It also harbors horrible resentment.
Done w/that!
Good Luck in whatever you do...
D18 texted me "why are you making Mom get rid of dog?". I replied "I"m not - just don't want her wrecking the house anymore".
I then called D18 to explain since I suck at texting. She commented "now Mom is so pissed at you" "she's not coming over on Sundays" "she's not going to pay your cell phone bill anymore"
My cell was originally in WAW name and she has always paid the bill - even since we separated. Considering, I have been paying all the other bills for my house, that's no big deal. $65.00 per month on top of the thousands I currently spend per month doesn't scare me. I'm just hoping she will stay with our
agreememt of paying for grcoeries etc for the kids and I. I can't afford everything on my own, and don't want to lose all my money battling in court.
Up until now, I felt we didn't need a separation agreement, and still won't rock the boat if she doesn't give me any other reason to. The cell phone bill still comes to my house addressed to her, so no big deal. And besides, now I don't want her to have any idea who I am talking to anyway.
Up until now, I felt we didn't need a separation agreement
Mistake. Keep not rocking the boat, and tell us how that turns out. The boat is her living elsewhere, sticking you with most of the bills while she plays at being single, right?
Geez, why would you want to rock that boat?
And you should have told your daughter it's her mom's dog, she adopted it, she needs to take care of it.
A little lesson in being responsible.
Sounds to me like your daughter is learning to treat you like crap from her mom too.
"now Mom is so pissed at you"
Because she has to take care of her own dog? Hmm?
Seriously, if she's going to fight her battles through the kids and lie to them, you should get an attorney.
And if it were my daughter, I would say, "I will not listen to that kind of language anymore" (re: pissed).
PS. Why don't you get a book on how to establish healthy boundaries?
BeTheMan - Sorry, didn't realize this was your thread! HUG
Time Heals
I did tell my daughter that it's her mom's job to look after her dog - not mine and not her's or her brother. As for her saying "pissed" - she'll be 19 in about 2 weeks - she says worse!
I also called my WAW and told her to keep the kids out of things.
even the kids are afraid of her LOL!
She commented "now Mom is so pissed at you" "she's not coming over on Sundays" "she's not going to pay your cell phone bill anymore"
Mind you I wonder if they said tickety boo! when she left the home and moved away from them ;-)
They worry about her being angry and not coming over on sundays and not paying your cell phone bill.
Did they worry when she left the home and separated from you and broke up the family several months ago?
Time Heals
I did tell my daughter that it's her mom's job to look after her dog - not mine and not her's or her brother. As for her saying "pissed" - she'll be 19 in about 2 weeks - she says worse!
I also called my WAW and told her to keep the kids out of things.
Good man!
That's a boundary.
Hey BTM. As long as the W doesnt have to commit to anything, she's in control. By getting a separation agreement, the rules are set and she loses some control. Bravo!
Your W is getting pissed at you for asserting your boundries and this is the the typical response. At this stage, it's not a bad thing. It means you are behaving unexpectedly.
It's your turn to be selfish, brother. Go and enjoy your life, loosen up. Drop the rope. Be mysterious. Nothing can touch you.
My cell was originally in WAW name and she has always paid the bill - even since we separated. Considering, I have been paying all the other bills for my house, that's no big deal. $65.00 per month on top of the thousands I currently spend per month doesn't scare me. I'm just hoping she will stay with our
agreememt of paying for grcoeries etc for the kids and I. I can't afford everything on my own, and don't want to lose all my money battling in court.
I think you can find a way to handle it,
will it be tough, maybe, but you can find a way if you really want to, you've been taking care of 90% of things so far, I think the remaining 10% is something you can handle as well.
If that means tightening your belt, so be it.
If that means restricting the spending that occurs with the kids, you can do it.
You've taken 2 trips with the kids and the wife within the last several months, stop taking the wife on trips and I'm sure you've come up with grocery money.
Don't make excuses,
excuses don't explain and explanations don't excuse.
I did tell my daughter that it's her mom's job to look after her dog - not mine and not her's or her brother. As for her saying "pissed" - she'll be 19 in about 2 weeks - she says worse!
I also called my WAW and told her to keep the kids out of things.
Thank Goodness!
Setting boundaries and standing up for personal responsibility! Yeah.
Now work those 180s too: and this means... sometimes you have to get out of the house. I don't care if that's only going out for a walk when you are first starting.
I have been walking every morning. I started right after our last vacation - since I gained 10 pounds in a week.
I spent a lot of time here today - because I needed the support. It's the end of the work day and I am feeling ok. Time to go home to MY house and see MY kids.
Expect to see lots of me in the next little while. I've got lots of work to do and suspect the toughest part is still to come.
5 years after my first visit and almost a year since I came back, and I am still alive. Thanks again to Rob, Puppy and others. There are days when you folks keep me sane.
you've been doing this for a while,
you can give yourself some credit too ;-)
- no one said this stuff would be easy,
just that it would be worth it regardless if the divorce is busted or not.
you've been doing this for a while,
you can give yourself some credit too ;-)
- no one said this stuff would be easy,
just that it would be worth it regardless if the divorce is busted or not.
And I just might be at it for a while longer...
This morning I realized that I have 7 months before my WAW apartment lease comes up for renewal - and 2 years before our agreed upon date to sell the house and proceed with divorce.
I am working on de-taching and letting her go, but I will never give up until the day the papers are signed. And even, I may not. If I can do this for 5 years, I can do for 7 - or more.
I am working on de-taching and letting her go, but I will never give up until the day the papers are signed. And even, I may not. If I can do this for 5 years, I can do for 7 - or more.
BTM,
Martyrdom is NOT healthy for you, and NOT attractive to your wife.
Please re-consider your strategy.
Puppy
Wow 2 years? That sounds like a long time to be in limbo.
You need to have some pride, brother. Move on with your own life. If she wants you let her chase you.
Puppy is absolutely right, time for a new strategy. You need to listen closely as theres alot of wisdom here.
I am working on de-taching and letting her go, but I will never give up until the day the papers are signed. And even, I may not. If I can do this for 5 years, I can do for 7 - or more.
BTM,
Martyrdom is NOT healthy for you, and NOT attractive to your wife.
Please re-consider your strategy.
Puppy
Puppy - I can't afford any more mistakes. So, please clarify that for me. I was not intending to sound like or be a martyr. Just commenting here (and I wouldn't say to my WAW) that I refuse to give up. As for re-considering my strategy, I don't have a definitive one at this point - other than going back to the basics of dbing.
Hanging in there for the length of time that you're talking about is martyrdom, in my opinion. I'm trying to say that it will eat at your emotional and even your physical health, and will simultaneously not even look attractive to your wife (at some point, it starts to look pathetic).
Clearer?
Puppy
Hanging in there for the length of time that you're talking about is martyrdom, in my opinion. I'm trying to say that it will eat at your emotional and even your physical health, and will simultaneously not even look attractive to your wife (at some point, it starts to look pathetic).
Clearer?
Puppy
Well...then martyrdom it is. Unless I meet someone else and care for that person more than my WAW and feel that is a better relationship for me, I won't give up our marriage. It's just not in me to do so.
In order for it to not look pathetic to my WAW, I will not make that declaration anywhere but here, and will GAL, but live every day with the goal and intention of saving my marriage. Right up until the day I meet my goal or I sign those papers.
When I said my vows, of "til death do us part" I meant it. Obviously, at some point I may not have a choice, but until then, I choose to continue. I still try to prepare myself for the worst, and if that is the end result, I will be able to live the rest of my life knowing I truly did everything I could to honor my vows.
In order for it to not look pathetic to my WAW, I will not make that declaration anywhere but here
It doesn't matter, BTM --
you will have "declared" it from the rooftops by your very actions.Waywards learn the whole "believe none of what they say, and only half of what they do" too, you know.
In any event, I do wish you good luck, and I hope I'm wrong.
Puppy
Take a break from all of this.
You literally live to please your wife and get her back.
It sounds admirable but in reality, you have no life, that's why this is all you can do.
Join a team sport, play on a men's softball or soccer team and get used to "ME" time once or twice a week that doesn't involve thinking about the kids or your wife.
You need to get in the habit of really GAL'ing.
Not just saying you'll get get a life.
Reclaim that individuality, get out of your comfort zone (playing xbox 360 with a headset at home is not GAL), get out with friends for a few drinks once per week, join the guys for a UFC pay per view and eventually some social interaction with some other women.
Get this straight,
your wife is not afraid to lose you,
she can't be afraid to lose you, SHE HAS YOU, SHE CAN HAVE YOU ANY TIME SHE WANTS and she knows this.
Do you know this?
You are afraid to lose your wife.
YOU DON'T HAVE HER, YOU DON'T HAVE HER ANYTIME YOU WANT, you know this.
She can't chase you/pursue you if you're always there,
she doesn't have those feelings for you because you are always pursuing her, she knows this, you say you act differently around her but I'm pretty sure she's extremely intuitive when it comes to you and knows you're just bluffing and putting on a show.
How has martyrdom been working out for you so far?
It sounds like you're so afraid of what life would be like without your W, you've accepted your role as her doormat.
Did you have a life before you M? You were strong and confident once, and managed to make it on your own. You had friends, hobbies and a life that didn't completely revolve around your W.
THAT's what attracted your W to you in the first place. Being a martyr and a doormat? Not so much.
Look, you're going to do whatever you're going to do, but if your choice is to be her doormat until she finally D's you and M's someone else, there's not much we can do to help you.
Nothing to see here, people. Wipe your feet on BTM on your way out.
DLS -
I hardly post anymore, but your thread caught my eye. I was, where you are, for 2 1/2 years. I served my H last Wednesday. Forced celibacy does nothing but force a separation of mind, spirit, and marriage. It also harbors horrible resentment.
Done w/that!
Good Luck in whatever you do...
Forced celebacy should not be a choice. What about a pre-nup that describes and protects against this as well as makes sure that the partner does their part on bills, chores, relationship management, etc.
How has martyrdom been working out for you so far?
It sounds like you're so afraid of what life would be like without your W, you've accepted your role as her doormat.
Did you have a life before you M? You were strong and confident once, and managed to make it on your own. You had friends, hobbies and a life that didn't completely revolve around your W.
THAT's what attracted your W to you in the first place. Being a martyr and a doormat? Not so much.
Look, you're going to do whatever you're going to do, but if your choice is to be her doormat until she finally D's you and M's someone else, there's not much we can do to help you.
Nothing to see here, people. Wipe your feet on BTM on your way out.
I admit to being very afraid of life without my WAW. The best I can do is to try not to show that to her or say it to her or anyone who might tell her.
I really only had an "adult" life for a year before I met my WAW - but yes I was confident back then. I was really a cocky a$$hole, and yes, she was attracted to that it some ways. When we were away a month ago, she even made a comment to me that I don't have that anymore. And I know I don't - at least around her.
For 22 years, I made my life all about my WAW, our kids and our home. I have very few friends and I am completely apart from my family, other than the odd phone call or visit to my Mom. I know a huge part of my recovery is to GAL. I truly suck at it. Tonight after work, I am going for a beer with a friend, but even that is really of no interest to me. I am trying to force myself to do anything other than sit in my house.
If I was on a date with someone today and they said "what do you enjoy - what do you like to do in your spare time?" I would have really nothing to say. I can see how that would be unattractive to any woman - and even more so to my WAW.
All I can do is try.
BTM, you just proved our point.
Puppy
BTM, you just proved our point.
Puppy
I know I did Puppy. It's not that I don't know what some of my poblems are, it's that I still have not found a way to change them.
In order to get me though the next little while, I went to the DR yesterday and got sleeping pills and I am going back on Prozac. I was on both last Nov/Dec, but was able to go off them rather quickly. I hope to do the same again. I am also going back to the counselor I was seeing back then.
I'm not a fan of being forced to be celibate because of my spouses choices.
so you have extra-marital sex? or are you just a monday morning quarterback?
Not yet. Thinking having her sign a notarized document stating that she agrees with me taking care of myself since she does not want to.
you crack me up. could you imagine going before a judge with that, and he turns out to be the one with the penis pump.
"I'm going to need some time to read this 40 page affidavit on your sexual needs."
BTM, you just proved our point.
Puppy
I know I did Puppy. It's not that I don't know what some of my poblems are, it's that I still have not found a way to change them.
Sorry, BTM, but I call "bullchit" on that one. Go back and read your latest posts: you said
"I choose to," etc.
It's one thing to find DBing difficult. It's another thing to
fearfully and
willingly not try it.
Puppy
...I know a huge part of my recovery is to GAL. I truly suck at it. Tonight after work, I am going for a beer with a friend, but even that is really of no interest to me. I am trying to force myself to do anything other than sit in my house.
You see, that's a problem.
Going out with a friend for a beer is a good thing,
especially after work, you get to vent off some steam, drink a few pints, try some different beers, literally, taste some different stuff, get into it, when I travel to the States from the land of "Canadia" and hook up with my co-workers for meetings, they all look forward to going out with me at the end of the day, "Rob let's go out, you're only here for the week, let's go grab a few beers, something to eat". These guys all have their own lives and could easily make excuses like "have to go home, family night, etc." but they all jump at the opportunity to go out for a brew and just shoot the $hit. Is it because I'm the greatest co-worker and friend they have in the world? (possibly, but that's another story altogether LOL!), they enjoy going out, talking outside of work, the idea is "the world can wait, tonight we'll go out and enjoy a few brews and relax", it's a great mentality, it's very satisfying and enjoyable, you talk about crazy stuff, you laugh, you have a wicked time and they all say "tomorrow night, we do this again!".
Life is short.
Really it is.
We lead a largely linear life experience.
We're born, we grow up, we die.
Yes I know, very uplifting when you look at it like that.
So what are you doing between point A and point B.
Are you taking advantage of the time you have between those 2 points.
Being a martyr sucks, take it from me, 10 years ago I was that same guy, I won't ever go back to that again, life sucked, there was no enjoyment in it and that is the true secret to life, enjoying it because it is so short and it's so crucial that you enjoy this journey and currently bro, you are not enjoying it.
You dread going for a beer with a friend after work.
That really sucks.
That's really a metaphor for your life as it stands right now.
Sit back and soak that part in.
Tell us that this life so far feels super great for you.
You know it doesn't.
You also know that you are in charge of your life, so apparently you are holding yourself back.
Sucks to be handcuffed by yourself and to also hold the key in your hand to unlock those shackles. On top of that, you have several backup copies of the key available just in case you lose the one you're holding. You literally have every chance to unlock yourself from your current life to open the door to the exciting great life you so richly deserve.
No one is standing your way except for you.
Get thee some counseling and handle your depression, it sounds like you are in major dumpsville to be thinking like this.
No meds, you can cure this depression with a swift kick in the arse and splash of cold water on your face and telling yourself that a great life is yours for the taking you just have to say.... "YES, I want this now!"
Life is short.
Really it is.
and i think you are missing another important point.
Beer is good.
and compnay is better. Take notice of DanF. Notice how is attitude and disposition has changed. The ball is rolling. Then it speeds up. Then one day you wonder what the problem was in the first place, because the negetive dpressing aspects of life arent worth remembering.
Remember, beer is good. Beers with company is better.
and i think you are missing another important point.
Beer is good.
and compnay is better. Take notice of DanF. Notice how is attitude and disposition has changed. The ball is rolling. Then it speeds up. Then one day you wonder what the problem was in the first place, because the negetive dpressing aspects of life arent worth remembering.
Remember, beer is good. Beers with company is better.
bro if we ever get a chance to share a brew,
I will buy the first round,
and I will let you buy the 6 rounds following that ;-)
"Beer is good. Beers with company is better. "That's a Miller Chill commercial waiting to happen!
Beer was good last night and had a good talk with my friend. Yes, mostly about my sit. - but it was good to get some stuff out and get another perspective.
Since WAW has decided not to come over for usual Sunday dinner, I told my S16 that he and I would make dinner together on Sunday for just the two of us, since D18 is out of town for weekend.
WAW texted me today saying she asked S to go our for dinner with her on Sunday and he responded with "here's comes the nasty parents splitting up bs". She then texted that it was selfish of me, since I have him all week and she works almost all the time.
I am a crappy texter, so I called her and said that it was mean of her to consider me trying to make his Sunday enjoyable selfish. I was simply trying to be a good Dad. I said I have no problem with him going out for dinner with her - I want him to spend time with her. He loves her. I said I can make dinenr with him another night. No big deal.
I also said, there is no need to be nasty. A month ago we were out for dinner, holding hands and getting along great. Then we go on vacation and all of a sudden, we can't even be in the same place. That's ridiculous.
I was very calm the whole time, but I think I made it clear that I do not appreciate her sending me negative texts after days of no communication at all.
I think I did a good job of being friendly and flexible, but not being a doormat or appearing clingy or needy in any way.
I was just reading the journal I have kept since Oct 31 last year. Decided that I would create a chronological summary of events and have my counselor read it when I see him in August. It would be good to get a professional,objective view on my WAW's "come here - go away" behaviour.
Kinda looking forward to a Sunday with only my schedule in mind. Other than missing the incredible cooking of my WAW, no real loss with her not coming over on Sundays. And this is a good reason for me to work on my cooking skills. Since she is taking S16 out for dinner tomorrow night, and D18 is away, I will be home alone. But...rather than just micro something or eat crap, I will make myself something I like.
it's summertime,
maybe get in the habit of bbq'ing on sunday,
heck maybe get some friends involved,
outdoor patio,
brews, burgers, hotdogs, ribs, steak, etc.
it's summertime,
maybe get in the habit of bbq'ing on sunday,
heck maybe get some friends involved,
outdoor patio,
brews, burgers, hotdogs, ribs, steak, etc.
I do have a great barbecue...on a 20 x 20 deck....with hot tub...and it's a great summer here in Ontario.
RobX - what do you think of how I handled things in the post above (2044195)? Was I too nice?
I think you did good,
you stood your ground without being an a$$hole and i think you finally gave her the beginning of an impression that you're done dealing with her BS and you set the record straight pretty clearly.
Question is... can you maintain this?
The attitude you have to have is that you're done with her and moving on.
I think you did good,
you stood your ground without being an a$$hole and i think you finally gave her the beginning of an impression that you're done dealing with her BS and you set the record straight pretty clearly.
Question is... can you maintain this?
The attitude you have to have is that you're done with her and moving on.
Answer is....I must maintain this.
I literally have to work at the attitude of being done and moving on, since I obviously still want her back. But, it's been only 5 days since the latest bomb of "I'm not coming home", and I have made some progress.
My S went on my morning walk with me today. I told him that I have no problem at all with him having dinner with his mom tonight. We talked a little about things between his mom and I, but then talked about other stuff too. It was nice.
When WAW comes to pick up S for dinner, I doubt she will get out of her car, so we likely won't see each other. But..just in case she does or I happen to be outside, what's my best action? I was thinking of approaching and just saying "hi" and "have a nice dinner". Too nice???
My S went on my morning walk with me today. I told him that I have no problem at all with him having dinner with his mom tonight. We talked a little about things between his mom and I, but then talked about other stuff too. It was nice.
This is good.
As for what to do when she gets there, my favorite thing is for you to be BUSY. Be in the middle of home improvement project or something in the yard, or be dressed ready to go for a jog or something. Then say something very polite, like your "have a good time!" line, and then go do what you gotta do.
You could also be dressed in a snappy new shirt, smelling of new cologne, do the same "have a good time!" thing, and then say "Sorry to be so short, but I'm already late," and then -- booom! -- you're outta there.
Puppy
You could also be dressed in a snappy new shirt, smelling of new cologne, do the same "have a good time!" thing, and then say "Sorry to be so short, but I'm already late," and then -- booom! -- you're outta there.
Puppy
YES!!!
This exactly!!!!
You could also be dressed in a snappy new shirt, smelling of new cologne, do the same "have a good time!" thing, and then say "Sorry to be so short, but I'm already late," and then -- booom! -- you're outta there.
Puppy
YES!!!
This exactly!!!!
In the theme of I will try anything.....
I showered, got dressed and put on cologne. S16 had no idea when WAW was coming to pick him up for dinner. So I made sure S16 saw how I was dressed and told him I was going out for dinner with my boss and "some friends". My boss just recently ended his 25 year marriage and jumped headfirst in the GAL thing - more like GAW thing: get any woman. So I figured that was a good person to say I was out with.
I would have loved to be leaving just as WAW got there, but was afraid it would seem too planned. Besides, every time I see her, I get all weak kneed, and I don't need that right now.
Truth is, I had no plans and really no where to go. So, I am now at my office (business is closed) and will do the personal finances and other stuff I had planned on doing at home, here instead. It seems almost crazy, but I will try just about anything. There's a good chance WAW won't even ask about me and/or that S16 won't even remember. But..heck...it's a half hour drive and a couple bucks of gas and nothing more.
An old acquaintance of mine owns a local bar. I will stop by there on my way home and see if he is in. It gives me something to do, maybe catch up and gets me in public. If he's not there, I will just head home.
However this ends, I truly will be able to say I tried everything...
Truth is, I had no plans and really no where to go. So, I am now at my office (business is closed) and will do the personal finances and other stuff I had planned on doing at home, here instead. It seems almost crazy, but I will try just about anything.
Not crazy. Smart. So many people get the advice you've gotten but don't try because, "I didn't have anywhere to go". SO WHAT? Good for you for doing it!
Truth is, I had no plans and really no where to go. So, I am now at my office (business is closed) and will do the personal finances and other stuff I had planned on doing at home, here instead. It seems almost crazy, but I will try just about anything.
Not crazy. Smart. So many people get the advice you've gotten but don't try because, "I didn't have anywhere to go". SO WHAT? Good for you for doing it!
Thanks! My biggest mistake has been not taking advice here just because I am scared to do it, or it takes me out of my comfort zone. The "pros" here aren't going to be right all the time, but I can at least take their advice and alter it based on my situation and my knowledge of my WAW.
I'm still at the office and I've been here longer than I thought I would. Going to skip stopping by the bar, because I called and my buddy isn't there today. Still...I feel like I did "something different". It may not help, but there is no way it can hurt my cause either.
btm your thread is 88 pages long and still going strong,
you've been doing what you wanted to do most of this time and pretty much disregarding advice from a lot of the vets here, how about for the next 88 pages, you try some of the advice we give you ;-)
btm your thread is 88 pages long and still going strong,
you've been doing what you wanted to do most of this time and pretty much disregarding advice from a lot of the vets here, how about for the next 88 pages, you try some of the advice we give you ;-)
I'm trying for first place in most viewed......
I have tried before...
BUT...every time it felt like things were getting better, I would slide back. When your WAW is asking for dates, kissing, hugging, initiating sex, spending time with you, calling, texting, going on vacations etc. it sure
seems like we are on our way. Then BOOM! she drops the I'm not coming home bomb.
I am dying to know what it was that made her change her mind on vacation. Or..was she just playing with me for months or ???? Every day I have to stop myself from contacting her and asking. But this time, at least I am stopping myself.
you weren't a challenge, you made it easy for her,
you were conquered, you were easy to catch, you had nothing else going for you, you jumped at the chance to hug, kiss and date her.
As for what happened during the trip, who knows?
Maybe she got a text from her mystery man asking her how her vacation was and if she dropped the bomb on you yet?
Anything is possible.
am dying to know what it was that made her change her mind on vacation
I don't think it works that way. Somebody who leaves a M has usually been thinking about it for a while. There is no single trigger. They've been "feeling" like leaving for a while, and they finally just do it.
Maybe it wasn't what happened on vacation. Maybe it was what didn't happen (her feelings didn't suddenly change)?
Who knows? Maybe she just didn't want to miss out on the vacation?
I'm thinking that she was hoping I would be different and that her feelings would change because of that. I suppose at this point it really doesn't matter. But, someday I wanna know if I was just used for fun, dates, and a free vacation.
I just got home and neither of my kids are home yet. No matter what time the first one gets home, I will say "I just got home too". Just in case that gets back to WAW - let her think I was out for hours.
you weren't a challenge, you made it easy for her,
you were conquered, you were easy to catch, you had nothing else going for you, you jumped at the chance to hug, kiss and date her.
As for what happened during the trip, who knows?
Maybe she got a text from her mystery man asking her how her vacation was and if she dropped the bomb on you yet?
Anything is possible.
You are spot on Rob. And I knew then too. The fact that she is crazy hot, gives (well...gave) her all the power and she knows it.
She did have her ever present (and ever locked) Blackberry with her and did do a lot of texting. Much of it was to our daughter, but not all.
Recently she hired our daughter to work for her. Since WAW almost lives at work, that makes me feel a little better about prospects of OM. But....then she has told our daughter that I should be dating other women, so she could make it seem ok to daughter if there was a guy there.
Whatever............
But....then she has told our daughter that I should be dating other women, so she could make it seem ok to daughter if there was a guy there.
Whatever............
I wouldn't say "IF",
I've been thinking all along there has been someone else involved, you just keep mentioning that you have found no evidence of such.
Read through many of the posts and situations on here. Most say that they don't suspect another man or woman. Then the truth becomes known and everything changes. The clues are there, I know I've seen them in your sitch, BTM.
There are a lot of people out there that need someone there to make the break easier....thus the OM/OW.
Women, especially, almost always have a perceived "soft place to land," before they attempt to exit the marriage.
Puppy
I agree that there are signs of OM, but at this point it's virtually impossible for me to do any snooping. And even if she has one now, there is not much I can say, since we are separated and she has told me that I can "date other people". I know...I know...that's a big sign of OM right there.
Hey BeTheMan,
I'm new to your post and want to wish you the best of luck. I'm in a similar sisuation with my W. I was in total denial of her affair it was more EA than PA. I never thought W would have an affair based on her past, but I was wrong!!!
Now we are seperated as well and W says she has had no contact with OM since I confronted her back in Feb.
She has admitted she still has feelings for him. When will she snap out of that phase? and maybe say hey the M wasn't that bad.. Maybe she will or maybe she wont. (Well I still have hope)
It's tough to know if anything is going on now, but I have to take this time for me and also be the best dad I can.
The advice on here is great from everyone. Somedays are a lot harder than others, but have to try and keep going foward.
Well talk later Hope
My daughter's 19th birthday is on Monday. I usually work every Satruday, but actually have a 3 day weekend coming up due to a holiday here in Ontario.
Anyway...last night D told me that her brithday dinner is at the restaraunt my WAW manages on Sunday. There will be quite a few people there and my D clearly stated she wants me there. So..I will go and with a smile on my face and be courteous, friendly to my WAW's family, staff and her. It will be the first time in 2 weeks that WAW and I have seen each other.
Now..the question is...what about Monday? D told me that WAW took Monday off and wants to do something on the her actual birthday. Since it would most likely be just a "family" thing, what's the best course of action? Same thing? Smile, and be an awesome Dad?
Smile and be an awesome dad,
don't worry about what your wife will do or how she will act,
that part is up to her.
Smile and be an awesome dad,
don't worry about what your wife will do or how she will act,
that part is up to her.
I thought you might say this would be a good time to show WAW what it's really like to be a divorced famlily.
I read somewhere on here that a great way to smile, is to think of a time when you and your WAS did something naughty. I have this one encounter that makes me smile every time I think of it. So...that will be my smile point every time I look at my WAW or just need it. Of course, I will have to be careful not to look at her with desire. Since my WAW always thinks I only want her for her looks and sexualtiy that would be a big NO NO!
it's your kids birthday, attend the party, you don't have to stay till the very end, consume some food & drink, conversate, have fun, be merry (don't be Mary!) and then leave.
I don't think you have to worry about you wanting her only for her looks & sexuality, seriously that's all she's given you a chance to want her for lately, what else has there been? This is a non-issue right now, don't sweat it.
I'm with Rob. Go to both events, be positive and happy. Maybe on Monday, do the "Really Important Guest on Johnny Carson Who Always Had to Leave Early" thing.
(to your daughter): "Sorry to have to leave a little early, honey, but I've somewhere else to go. I hope you had a nice two days -- sure love you" (or whatever) -- and ((POOF!)) -- disappear, with new clothes and new cologne on.
Puppy
Yes! Show you with a new outfit/ haircut new cologne. Be vague, smile and laugh. Nothing can touch you! Relaxed and cool. Trust me, they notice whether they say it or not.
Yesterday I emailed WAW about D's birthday and a few financial issues. She called me later in day and commented on me sending an email rather than calling. I said nothing in response. At one point she referred to my house as "your house" when she usually says "the house". Again, I made no comment.
I have decided to email (and keep copies) whenever I feel the topic is important from a legal/financial aspect.
The house comment was a nice little example of her "dbing" me and showing that she has moved on and no longer considers the house hers. Sure, it bugged me, but I didn't let it show.
Sunday night, D wants to have a bunch of friends over to celebrate her 19th birthday. I texted WAW yesterday to ask if she could help me watch over them. I don't want to be solely responsible for a bunch of drinking kids. She agreed to help, but that means she will be at my house for the first time in a couple weeks. I will be friendly and conversational, but make sure I don't do even one thing that seems like I am persuing, needy or clingy.
Almost a year after returning and almost 5 years after my first time here....and something small finally made me realize it's to give in, try to move on and set my wife free.
The water heater at my house is broken and won't be fixed for a few days since it's a long weekend here in Ontario. Yesterday, I called my stbx and asked if the kids and I could come to her apartment to shower today. She was cold, and very reluctant and when I asked if it would be awkward she said "yes". A month ago, she and I were in Mexico together, and now it's awkward for me to use her shower??
For some reason, that was the final thing for me. I suddenly realized just how far she has moved on. It's time for me stop trying to make a life with the one woman in the world, who wants a life with me so little, she was willing to walk out on her kids and her home.
This is still not what I want my life to be, and I admit it. But, I am finally ready to work at letting her go.
I will still smile and be polite etc at my daughter's birthday dinner tonight. Stbx is no longer coming over to help me watch D and her friends.
I am sad today, but at least I have finally given in.
I just read my old post when I announced the divorce was over and I said I would stick around to helps others out. I didn't. If I did, I probably would not be typing this message now.
You wrote this last year, BTM. I am one of those who supposedly busted my divorce, and then continued on this board. Continuing to contribute here didn't helped my M. What would've help is if both of us were committed to building it up. My H wasn't, and so I have finally asked him for a S, to be followed by a D eventually.
You say your D was busted, but if your W was truly committed, she would not have left after a silly argument. She would've stayed. So, to me, it says a lot about what she has been thinking these last 5 years .... one more step out of line, and she was outta there. But, to just leave the kids, sounds utterly over the top. It must've been one doozy of an argument, but I don't believe it was just that. Something else has been brewing.
Try not to think about it as "giving in" or "she wins" ... yes, you may still love her, but that will end eventually and the lack of her company will become the norm. Think of this as an exciting new life, filled with endless possibilities. I finally, after 5 years of doing everything I could to save our M, realised that I no longer love my H. I have no hard feelings, just not into him anymore. He has rejected me so many times on so many levels, that I have finally been pushed over the edge where I doubt I will ever recover any semblance of romantic/marital love. I care about him, like him as a social partner, and we will always be attached as co-parents and grandparents. That's all. And, I feel like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders ... I feel free for the first time in years. Try and get to this way of thinking.
Now that you have "given in" ... perhaps you and the kids can start really living.
Update....
Last weekend was ok. WAW did let kids and I shower at her apartment since our water heater was broken. We had dinner for D 19th birthday at the restaraunt WAW manages and then we all went to the horse track the next day. I bought D her first legal beer.
I texted and called WAW on Friday morning just to check in. Conversation was very brief and she was less than warm. She is not coming over today as she used to on Sundays to make family dinner. D said it's partly due to the fact that I told her I needed some time apart after the vacation went so poorly.
I called WAW this morning and said "I know you have plans for today, but I am ok with you coming over on Sundays from here on, since I don't want you to never see S (daughter works for WAW), don't want the kids to not have their one really good home cooked meal, and you and I should see each other sometimes leading up to Xmas". Yes.....we still plan on doing the "family" vacation as we did last year and every other year.
I am doing better at moving on and letting go, but am trying to keep the lines of communication open as well. I still suck at GAL, but am slowly getting there. Daily life isn't bad at all and I have decided 100% to stay with current agreement of me staying in house with kids, WAW paying for groceries etc and then selling house and proceeding with divorce in 2 years when S is done high school, mortgage is due for renewal. We still do not have lawyers involved or a separation agreement of any kind. It works for me and I'm probably getting a better deal now than if we did have lawyers involved. And....admittedly....as long as papers are not signed, there is tiny glimmer of hope.
I am not living just for that hope now, but I remain open to some day living life happily with my WAW. But...right now I am learning to and focusing on being happy with my life as it is.
Still working on enjoying life without my WAW, but.....
Last night I decided it was time to do something different. Prior to our last vacation, when things seemed to be getting better, I would stop by WAW's apartment for tea on my way home from work. So..last night I texted "tea?". Her response was "sorry, not home". We exchanged a couple of texts, but I managed to resist the urge to text again when she did not respond to my last one. I also managed to not say that I had heard "our song" earlier in the day and that it made me miss her.
I have really been missing her the last few days, but have done everything I can not to show that to my kids or tell her.
I am really hoping she decides to start coming to my house again on Sundays to make dinner etc. I have told her that she is welcome to come again, but will make sure I don't do anymore than that. I have to let her do it on her own and be comfortable.
Tonight, I am going back to the counselor I was seeing last year.
I am hoping that will help me to clear my mind and make sense of some things.
...right now I am learning to and focusing on being happy with my life as it is.
This is a good plan. Stick to that. Keep doing things that are fun. Do you go to the gym? Anything, that gets you out of the house (other than work) and doing something active. A new hobby is a good thing ... it'll keep your mind off things.
Last night I decided it was time to do something different. Prior to our last vacation, when things seemed to be getting better, I would stop by WAW's apartment for tea on my way home from work.
Don't contact her unless it's for finances or about the children. The above could be construed as a pursuing action. Unfortunately, social contact has been broken, so you're going to have to wait for her to try and reconnect. You have to work on you, and seeing the counselor is a step in the right direction.
Take care.
Don't contact her unless it's for finances or about the children. The above could be construed as a pursuing action. Unfortunately, social contact has been broken, so you're going to have to wait for her to try and reconnect. You have to work on you, and seeing the counselor is a step in the right direction.
Ditto and AMEN!Puppy
Don't contact her unless it's for finances or about the children. The above could be construed as a pursuing action. Unfortunately, social contact has been broken, so you're going to have to wait for her to try and reconnect. You have to work on you, and seeing the counselor is a step in the right direction.
Ditto and AMEN!Puppy
My thinking on contacting her was this: someone has to make the first move in re-opening contact with each other. Something non demanding as simply having tea together should do the trick without seeming like persuing.
Since she did initiate a hug after D's birthday dinner last week, and then also called me to see if I still wanted her to come over (I missed the call) I don't think she's entirely against the thought of seeing each other.
And...I'm trying to find the fine line of allowing her to feel like I am interested in HER. I know a lot of us with WAS who felt they never got enough attention and car are in this predicament.
If I offer and then don't make a big deal out of her not being available, I don't think it does any harm.
Her decision whether to spend part of this coming Sunday here at the house with the kids and I will certainly give me some idea of her current thinking.
I forgot to mention here that we did talk one day about the vacation being so bad for us. She did say that prior to that she thought things were getting better between us, but then she realized I really hadn't changed as much as she had hoped.
There's a lesson in that.
It's still pursuing her. She's the one who's left, wanted out. She's the one who needs to make overtures to you. She knows how you feel. She's sees your changes when you're around your kids.
WAW texted me today regarding some cell phone billing issues.
I kept it only about that and managed to not do anything else at all. For me - that's a rarity.
Still wondering if she will show up at my house on Sunday.
Last night I decided it was time to do something different. Prior to our last vacation, when things seemed to be getting better, I would stop by WAW's apartment for tea on my way home from work. So..last night I texted "tea?". Her response was "sorry, not home". We exchanged a couple of texts, but I managed to resist the urge to text again when she did not respond to my last one. I also managed to not say that I had heard "our song" earlier in the day and that it made me miss her.
I have really been missing her the last few days, but have done everything I can not to show that to my kids or tell her.
I haven't been around much on the db forums but managed to find a few minutes today, preparing for some travelling, a work trip I have scheduled for next week, busy, busy, busy, no rest for the wicked as they say ;-)
BTM, saw your post bro and I just shook my head,
you just don't get it.
You have killed the attraction between the two of you,
calling her/texting her and "changing things up" isn't going to recreate that attraction.
"Last night I decided it was time to do something different."You seriously have yet to really try something different, you're still up to your same old schtick.
"so..last night I texted "tea?".Pursuing, pursuing, pursuing.....
Don't you have a life after work, why do you need to stop by her place for .... tea?!
Things may have seemed to have been getting better prior to your vacation together but that was your point of view, not her point of view, in my opinion, she just went along for the ride, enjoyed the vacation time for what it was, vacation time, not necessarily time spent with you.
I get it bro, you're still head of heels in love with her.
And she knows it.
She doesn't feel that way about you.
And she can't feel that way about you until she FEELS that way about you if you get what I mean and that's only when she experiences that you've finally understood the way she feels. When you finally get how attraction works, when you stop pursuing and allow her to pursue what she's attracted to (be it you or someone else), when you finally let go and move on with your life and stop darkening her doorstep with your omniscient presence (always being there).
Leave her alone, move on with your life, you can be civil, friendly, cordial but you can stop contacting her and let her contact you. If that happens everyday or once a month, that's just how it's going to go.
She has to FEEL you let go.
She has to FEEL you move on.
And she can't FEEL any of that when you are always there.
My thinking on contacting her was this: someone has to make the first move in re-opening contact with each other. Something non demanding as simply having tea together should do the trick without seeming like persuing.
Since she did initiate a hug after D's birthday dinner last week, and then also called me to see if I still wanted her to come over (I missed the call) I don't think she's entirely against the thought of seeing each other.
And...I'm trying to find the fine line of allowing her to feel like I am interested in HER. I know a lot of us with WAS who felt they never got enough attention and car are in this predicament.
Your thoughts on contacting her because someone has to make the first move in re-opening contact were actually just you feeling the need to contact her after a period of no contact.
If you look at how this works, it works on you.
She doesn't contact you so it makes you want to contact her. So why not do the same with her and give it a try?
Let her initiate hugs,
let her call you,
seriously those are things she wants to do when she FEELS the need to do them,
let her do them,
but you don't want to wait for her to do these things,
you need to force your way and speed up the process and that's where you fail.
As soon as she starts to show interest,
you jump out from behind the door and start chasing her again, is your technique working? Is she banging at your door asking to come back home and work on the relationship?
I forgot to mention here that we did talk one day about the vacation being so bad for us. She did say that prior to that she thought things were getting better between us, but then she realized I really hadn't changed as much as she had hoped. There's a lesson in that.
Yeah there are a few lessons in that:
- we told you to go on vacations, we didn't necessarily tell you to bring her along, you could have gone with someone else and allow her to feel the loss of you and what you provide her with
- she thought things were getting better between the two of you, maybe she did or maybe she did that to soften the blow of telling you that she just doesn't FEEL it for you anymore and doesn't know how to say it without hurting you anymore
- then she realized that you really hadn't changed but not in the way you think, you still jump through every hoop she puts in front of you because she knows you will do it for a chance to get back with her, it's not very attractive, it's a bit of an ego boost for her, it makes her feel good to know she has this effect on you and she enjoys that part but that won't attract her to you, she wants an attractive man, not a pet dog to jump through hoops, in fact she doesn't want an actual pet dog either if I remember your last few posts about the puppy she dropped off at your place that she was too lazy to take care of
Think about her actions.
She buys things and loses interest quickly,
she can be irresponsible, she is lazy sometimes,
she only thinks of herself, if she doesn't make the effort to come over on sunday to share a meal with you guys she won't even be bothered to visit her kids, didn't she get all hot & bothered because your water heater broke and she had to allow you guys to come over to shower for 1 or 2 days, wow that's a real attractive quality for a wife and a mom LOL!
- And yet you still cling to her, are you that horny for sex? Or are you just attracted to women who treat you poorly?
There are other women out there, women that would treat you better and know what they have when they're in a relationship with you but you seem to be attracted to a woman that would treat you badly and won't accept you for who you are and she can't love you if she can't respect you and she can't respect you because you allow her to act poorly towards you and your family.
BTM I like you because I saw a bit of myself in you,
the guy who worked so hard for his wife to love him and she knows that and she still keeps you hanging by your fingernails. You will only realize the truth in any of the words I have typed here today when you finally hit your personal threshold point, that point where that toggle switch on the back of your head gets turned on and you finally have this clarity in your life as to what you should do. Everyone is different, you can't force clarity of this nature on anyone, it happens when it happens and it will happen for you one day when you realize what you are truly worth and that you are being rejected by someone who isn't worth it - things will change in your situation when that day happens.
I hope you have a good day bro, and a good weekend,
fill it with stuff to do, people to hang out with and good times to enjoy.
I have a plane to catch, bloody work,
talk to you all later ;-)
Wow that was good stuff Rob!
I think this should be on ready2change's quotes board:
You will only realize the truth in any of the words I have typed here today when you finally hit your personal threshold point, that point where that toggle switch on the back of your head gets turned on and you finally have this clarity in your life as to what you should do. Everyone is different, you can't force clarity of this nature on anyone, it happens when it happens and it will happen for you one day when you realize what you are truly worth and that you are being rejected by someone who isn't worth it - things will change in your situation when that day happens
It truely is a light going off in your head.
YOu finally get to your threshold and say F!ck it, I am a good person and deserve someone who recognizes it.
I living my life for me now!
good post robx
You will only realize the truth in any of the words I have typed here today when you finally hit your personal threshold point, that point where that toggle switch on the back of your head gets turned on and you finally have this clarity in your life as to what you should do.
What helped me was challenging some of my dysfunctional beliefs (things I was taught, learned or a coping mechanism I had but wasn't working) and trying something new for myself. Woman and men don't think, act, talk or walk the same - understand the differences. Learn what women find attractive and what they need from their man. What I learned was it wasn't what I thought. We are both happy now.
Cheers
I think this should be on ready2change's quotes board:
You will only realize the truth in any of the words I have typed here today when you finally hit your personal threshold point, that point where that toggle switch on the back of your head gets turned on and you finally have this clarity in your life as to what you should do. Everyone is different, you can't force clarity of this nature on anyone, it happens when it happens and it will happen for you one day when you realize what you are truly worth and that you are being rejected by someone who isn't worth it - things will change in your situation when that day happens
It truely is a light going off in your head.
YOu finally get to your threshold and say F!ck it, I am a good person and deserve someone who recognizes it.
I living my life for me now!
good post robx
I heard a little "ding" too.
I get it bro, you're still head of heels in love with her.
And she knows it.
She doesn't feel that way about you.
And she can't feel that way about you until she FEELS that way about you if you get what I mean and that's only when she experiences that you've finally understood the way she feels. When you finally get how attraction works, when you stop pursuing and allow her to pursue what she's attracted to (be it you or someone else), when you finally let go and move on with your life and stop darkening her doorstep with your omniscient presence (always being there).
Leave her alone, move on with your life, you can be civil, friendly, cordial but you can stop contacting her and let her contact you. If that happens everyday or once a month, that's just how it's going to go.
She has to FEEL you let go.
She has to FEEL you move on.
And she can't FEEL any of that when you are always there.
This is priceless! PRICELESS! ROBX aka The Natural
Robx - you nailed it! Anyone that is "stuck" should read this post.....and read it again....and read it again......
Great post robx.
Sorry for the highjack...Coach could you elaborate a little more on what you meant by this:
What helped me was challenging some of my dysfunctional beliefs (things I was taught, learned or a coping mechanism I had but wasn't working) and trying something new for myself. Woman and men don't think, act, talk or walk the same - understand the differences. Learn what women find attractive and what they need from their man. What I learned was it wasn't what I thought. We are both happy now.
What was it you learned?
Thanks, ~gg.
Coach, stupid question but how did you go about this quest to learn what women find attractive?
I just realized myself that my W can't have a clingy all consuming man. That's what I had become because she was my everything. As I went through this proceess I became more independent.
As my W saw me not needing her and doing things that she normally did, it caused her to question why she was leaving me. It was my ability to move on and stand on my own two feet that brought her back.
I would challenge anyone in this situation to do this. It's hard as hell to move on and realize that all this counter productive advice is actually great advice. It's the only way to save ourselves first and foremost, but if our spouses are meant to come back, they will. However, if they don't we'll be better people regardless.
I know I never expected mt W to tell me she wanted to drop the D, but she did. It wasn't until I completely detached and moved on that she saw the possibility of being without me.
Robx - you nailed it! Anyone that is "stuck" should read this post.....and read it again....and read it again......
I read that book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" last night and it was an eye opener! I really now see the "attraction" issue and how important it is for your self respect to just let go.
At this time, this advice sounds horrible and against your nature, but it works!
Ask yourself what feels better...
Her coming to me because SHE WANTS too?
or
Me chasing her til she does what I WANT?
At the risk of Robx kicking my butt again....
Tonight when I got home from work, my D19 asked if I wanted to join her, her boyfriend and S16 for dinner at the restaraunt my WAW and D work at. I had no plans and figured a free meal is never a bad idea.
While we were there WAW gave me money for groceries and when I asked. said she is not coming over to make dinner tomorrow. When we left, she hugged and kissed both kids and then gave me a hug. Instinctively, I hugged her back and said "nice to see you" and "I love you". By the time I realized what I said, it was too late.
Between saying ILY and asking if she was coming over tomorrow, I really screwed up.
One minor positive note: earlier today WAW called me regarding financial issues with D starting university next month. During that conversation, I brought up that I am still paying both our life insurance premiums. WAW is now going to start paying her premiums. May not seem like much, but it saves me $85.00 a month and I made my point calmly and firmly.
I also corrected her when she said something like "you don't like me". I calmly said "I won't allow you to say that - I do like you just as much now as I ever have". I will not stand for her deciding what I think or feel.
At the risk of Robx kicking my butt again....
LOL. Don't worry I think he's gone :P
A Instinctively, I hugged her back and said "nice to see you" and "I love you". By the time I realized what I said, it was too late.
Between saying ILY and asking if she was coming over tomorrow, I really screwed up.
DOH! It was an accident, hope you didn't get some weak wimpy look on your face when she didn't say it back though.
You are aware why not to say it. I's tough man. Cut yourself some slack and move forward. Make her come to you.
[quote=BeTheMan]
You will only realize the truth in any of the words I have typed here today when you finally hit your personal threshold point, that point where that toggle switch on the back of your head gets turned on and you finally have this clarity in your life as to what you should do. Everyone is different, you can't force clarity of this nature on anyone, it happens when it happens and it will happen for you one day when you realize what you are truly worth and that you are being rejected by someone who isn't worth it - things will change in your situation when that day happens.
Damn priceless advice...
At the risk of Robx kicking my butt again....
LOL. Don't worry I think he's gone :P
A Instinctively, I hugged her back and said "nice to see you" and "I love you". By the time I realized what I said, it was too late.
Between saying ILY and asking if she was coming over tomorrow, I really screwed up.
DOH! It was an accident, hope you didn't get some weak wimpy look on your face when she didn't say it back though.
You are aware why not to say it. I's tough man. Cut yourself some slack and move forward. Make her come to you.
We walked out right after I said it, and I didn't react in any way when she did not respond. I also managed to not react when she said she wasn't coming over tomorrow. Even I get it a tiny bit right every now and then.
Had a very brief phone conversation with WAW today regarding a comment D19 made. One comment she made stood out - "you are on an emotional roller coaster, so I am keeping my distance, but I am not angry"
And I thought I was doing a good job not showing what I am feeling. Obviously my actions have been less than consistent.
I'm not sure this question belongs in the middle of this thread..but....
What have other LBS noticed about their WAS in regards to social media? My WAW status on FB still says "married" and she still has all her old photo albums up. If and old friend were to stop by her FB profile, they would have no idea we have been separated for 8 months and are on our way to divorce.
It seems odd to me. Any thoughts?
Hi BTM,
My Husband had me served a month ago, at my work, but that's another story, HE moved out that day, anyways, we are still FB friends Crazy I know, but yes, he still has us listed as married and still has my pic, and of us together in his albums.
I don't know why or what he is thinking. I think it is odd also.
I think that they do odd things and it doesn't make sense to try to analyze their actions. They are adults, they know how to talk, they know where to find you. If anything has changed or is changing in their minds they will open their mouths and say so.
Perhaps its just another thing to look and and say "curious", shake your head and walk on.
Shelby - I have never read your thread and should do so, but I hope you had some idea of what was coming. I hope he didn't serve you and move with no inkling.
My thinking is that maybe the WAS has moved on so far, that things like FB status, pics etc mean nothing to them. While we LBS look everywhere for anything, they are simply enjoying their new lives.
They are doing exactly what we should be doing.
I meant to say "to look at and say curious...."
I think that they do odd things and it doesn't make sense to try to analyze their actions. They are adults, they know how to talk, they know where to find you. If anything has changed or is changing in their minds they will open their mouths and say so.
Perhaps its just another thing to look and and say "curious", shake your head and walk on.
If I shook my head every time my WAW did a curious thing in the last year, I would have the worst case of whiplash ever seen!
BTM, I have moved over to surviving the Big D.
I was here 2 years ago and DB to save my marraige, 2 years later he came back with I am not happy, and the ILYBNILWY again, a week later he had me served, never told me he saw a lawyer, or filed. We were still living together, eating meals together and sleeping in the same bed.
Don't mean to highjack, just filling you in on where I am now.
I'll be moving to surviving the Big D one of these days. I really should be in separated, but I will wait until this thread is locked.
Right now, our agreement (no lawyers involved) is to make it legal in 2 years. I want to stay in the house with my kids until S is done high school. We will then sell the house, pay off the credit line, split what's left and sign an uncontested divorce.
I wonder how many others there are like Shelby and I - that were here years ago and wound up returning after they thought the D was busted.
Anyone else with thoughts on the WAS and Facebook etc?
Had a very brief phone conversation with WAW today regarding a comment D19 made. One comment she made stood out - "you are on an emotional roller coaster, so I am keeping my distance, but I am not angry"
And I thought I was doing a good job not showing what I am feeling. Obviously my actions have been less than consistent.
Hello BTM
If she said that to you...
1) You're not detaching correctly and your "emotions" are on your sleeve like a Neon sign
or
2) She's testing you to see how you react.
Go back and to Robx's posts and READ AGAIN!
Just want you to know I've only began on detaching from my W, this is the FIRST full week of not doing one damn thing to initiate contact. IT HURTS. I miss her a lot! However, my biggest gift I can give her is to leave her alone. The biggest gift I can give myself is to move on with my life and better it without constantly thinking about her(ez to say only)
Focus on these signs, focus on you, focus on what you did 2 years ago that made it better. Did you do the stuff for you or to get her back? If you did it for both, then this time do it for YOU so the changes can last.
Had a very brief phone conversation with WAW today regarding a comment D19 made. One comment she made stood out - "you are on an emotional roller coaster, so I am keeping my distance, but I am not angry"
And I thought I was doing a good job not showing what I am feeling. Obviously my actions have been less than consistent.
Hello BTM
If she said that to you...
1) You're not detaching correctly and your "emotions" are on your sleeve like a Neon sign
or
2) She's testing you to see how you react.
Go back and to Robx's posts and READ AGAIN!
Just want you to know I've only began on detaching from my W, this is the FIRST full week of not doing one damn thing to initiate contact. IT HURTS. I miss her a lot! However, my biggest gift I can give her is to leave her alone. The biggest gift I can give myself is to move on with my life and better it without constantly thinking about her(ez to say only)
Focus on these signs, focus on you, focus on what you did 2 years ago that made it better. Did you do the stuff for you or to get her back? If you did it for both, then this time do it for YOU so the changes can last.
I still have not even come close to detaching. I still think of WAW the moment I open my eyes and she's the last thing I think of before I close them at night.
I can't control my thoughts, but I can control my actions. I need to leave her alone and most importantly I need to GAL. It's the one aspect of dbing I know I suck at and yet, have made very little progress in.
I still have not even come close to detaching. I still think of WAW the moment I open my eyes and she's the last thing I think of before I close them at night.
I can't control my thoughts, but I can control my actions. I need to leave her alone and most importantly I need to GAL. It's the one aspect of dbing I know I suck at and yet, have made very little progress in.
You CAN control your thoughts, but it takes you to GAL and really, really coming to the reality that the more you do anything concerning her your just going to keep pushing her away.
It's ok to think about her, just force yourself to channel that energy into something else while you do it.
NOTHING will change your sitch more than letting go right now.
Why keep doing what doesn't work?
Have you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy"? I think it might help you.
I read No More Mr Nice Guy months ago. It was bang on. Time for me to read it again.
I made myself a promise this morning while I was out for my morning walk.
I will not contact my WAW anymore unless it concerns finances and/or the kids. Since D19 starts university in a couple weeks, there is some discussion to be had there, but I will do it via email.
So...folks....make me stick to my promise!
GOOD!
Go pick up the book "Ways of the Superior Man" and read it too. See how you feel after you read that piece of art.
It's unreal how it opened my eyes. You will truly SEE how your Wife views you and how you need to view yourself.
Between those 2 books you will have a much easier time detaching I think.
Hi!
Add me to the list of was here and thought it was all busted and I'm back again. The "fix" kept for 7 years.
Stay strong!
Dagny
BTM, you know you can do it.
Hi!
Add me to the list of was here and thought it was all busted and I'm back again. The "fix" kept for 7 years.
Stay strong!
Dagny
Well....at least your 7 years beat my 4 years. I have seen a few posters here who thought they saved it only to come back again. I wonder how many of us there are.
It is so sad to be back, I was just searching to see when I first joined the board and was very sad to see jamesjohn had all my threads listed in the successful women thread. I feel like even more of a failure.
It is different this time. Last time we languished about 8 months in what I called "limbo-land" where we were just co-existing and I was walking on eggshells. This time we are just skipping limbo land and will probably soon be separated. His decision, I'm not forcing it, don't want it, but won't do anything to stop it. I have stated what I want, his decisions are his to make.
But we know we CAN do it and if we go through all these steps and don't save our M, we will save ourselves.
My story was on the successful threads as well. Made me feel like a hypocrite and a failure as well when I came back.
We've been separated 9 months and I thought things were getting better between us until the last vacation together when it all fell apart. My WAW has decided she is not coming home now.
I made a promise that I would not make next contact other than by email regarding finances and kids, and it's only been 3 days, but it seems like forever. Some days I have moments where I feel almost normal, but I still think of her the moment I wake up and literally all day long. I miss her terribly, but somewhere in the back of my mind I know I will be ok.
I give myself pep talks - I am still at home with my kids, I have a safe, job that pays well and I am appreciated there, I am healthy and financially ok. Of course, I want so much more from my life, but right now that's so much better than it could be.
I know I can't wait for her forever, but I also remind myself every day that there is 6 months before her apartment lease comes up for renewal and 2 years before we are going to sell the house and proceed with the divorce. At least, I have some time on my side.
The only thing I can do right now is give her space again, be positive and happy in front of my kids and see if she once again comes to me. But this time, if she does, I will know not to make the mistakes I did a few months ago.
It's a battle every day. But yes, we can do it and we can make ourselves better for it.
Sent WAW an email today regarding a few $$$ and kid issues. No response from her yet, but I have kept my promise to not contact her unless it involved those 2 issues. Usually I would use this as en excuse to call her and "temperature check", so emailing and keeping it very business like is a 180 for me.
Good Job! It is so hard to resist those "temperature checks", such an easy concept, but very difficult as the days stretch on. However, it is making these 180 changes stick that is so important.
I almost broke my promise last night....
I was having a decent night at home. S16 made Kraft Dinner for he and I. I haven't had that in a long time. I had drank a couple glasses of wine - goes great with KD. I rarely drink wine, but figured my WAW will never be back to drink it and it may as well not go to waste.
Anyway, D19 gave me the grocery money WAW gave her to give to me. I said "I wish your Mom would still come over on Sundays to make you dinner". She responded with something like "she feels uncomfortable around you".
That (and some wine) made me want to call WAW and tell her there is no need to feel like that around me. That we need to be around each other in some way, or family vacation at XMAS is going to be rough.
I managed to stop myself from contacting and am still forcing myself not to today. Considering she hasn't even responded to the email I sent yesterday, I MUST wait for her to contact me.
That we need to be around each other in some way, or family vacation at XMAS is going to be rough.
Do you really think she wants to go on vacation with you?
Why do you want to go on vacation with her?
IS this really letting her go?
That we need to be around each other in some way, or family vacation at XMAS is going to be rough.
Do you really think she wants to go on vacation with you?
Why do you want to go on vacation with her?
IS this really letting her go?
I don't know how she feels about the vacation, other than the last time we spoke she still wanted to go as a family.
I still want to go as a family as well. We managed to do it last year only days after she moved out, so I think we can do it again this year. As for letting her go, by then I hope I have let her go completely and that it will show by my actions that week.
Hmm... I am confused too: how is making vacation plans together letting go?
Why can't that kind of stuff wait until after you two (if this happens) are actually reconcilling?
Sounds--the way I read it anyway--more like being 'stuck'.
Hmm... I am confused too: how is making vacation plans together letting go?
Why can't that kind of stuff wait until after you two (if this happens) are actually reconcilling?
Sounds--the way I read it anyway--more like being 'stuck'.
In regards to XMAS we are "stuck". We both want our kids to have their annual vacation at XMAS time and we both want to enjoy it with them. So..stuck we are.
At least this year, my WAW is paying half the cost.
It's much less than a perfect situation, but then that's our life right now.
It's much less than a perfect situation, but then that's our life right now.
Call me silly, but it doesn't sound like it's really working for you.
Well...I broke my promise and it only took a week. But...
WAW never responded to my email regarding $$$ and D19 starting university. So, I called her on Sunday to see why. Admittedly, I also called because the kids said they were going out for dinner with her.
What should have been a quick chat turned into a 45 minute conversation mostly about our R. Yes..I know! WAW once again clearly stated that "our marriage is over". I know she truly feels that way now, but I've heard that many times before, and we are still not divorced today. I shall choose to believe half of what I hear. I did a very poor job of validating during the conversation, because I let my feelings take over and forgot my db principles at a very important time.
Anyway, the end result was us going out for dinner with the kids as a "family". WAW picked us up and when she took us home, she came in the house. She played chinese checkers with D and her boyfriend and then sat with S16 and our dog for a few minutes.
When she left she initiated a hug with me and we had a quick peck on the lips. Not sure who initiated that. Maybe me. Kinda mutual.
It's not much (crumbs in fact), but at least we had time together for the first time in quite a while.
Now, I need to lay low and see if she feels comfortable enough to come over on Sunday as used to.
Now, I need to lay low and see if she feels comfortable enough to come over on Sunday as used to.
BTM, This is all wrong. You don't lay low to attract her to you. She doesn't want to be comfortable, it's boring. You keep pursuing and wonder why you are stuck. Rinse, lather, repeat.
It's not much (crumbs in fact), but at least we had time together for the first time in quite a while.
"A drowning man will grasp at straw." Learn to swim.
Coach...I'm confused.
I don't lay low??? I meant lay low - as in not persue her this week. Just leave her alone and see if she deicdes to come over on Sunday on her own. How then do I attract her, without persuing? I get the boring thing, but she needs to be comfortable around me to start being around me again. No?
I will grasp at anything. It keeps my hope alive. The reality is that my wife left me 8 months ago, is living happily on her own, and yesterday clealry stated she is never coming back and our marriage is over and I choose to focus on the fact that she came to house, hugged me and gave me a peck on the lips.
It would be romantic if it wasn't so fricken sad!
You're right, BTM. It is crumbs.
Time for "2b."
Puppy
P.S. Agree with Coach.
You're right, BTM. It is crumbs.
Time for "2b."
Puppy
P.S. Agree with Coach.
No one likes crumbs more than me. I take all the crumbs she leaves me and roll them into a little ball and have that for dinner.
2b?????
Oops, sorry. Shorthand for:
"Puppy's Short Version, All-Inclusive Advice" for Waylayed Spouses Who Just Got Bombed"1. Get proof (of whether or not there's OM/OW). Hint: There almost always is.
2. Do either:
2a. Aggressive affair-busting (see Allen A's posts over in Infidelity)
Allen A's Posts ; or
2b. "Set Them Free" (Robx/Gucci approach)
"Setting Them Free" Those are the only two things I've seen work. If #1 turns up nothing, then proceed to #2b. And in the meantime, GAL your ass off, and become the better option. Best case, you'll attract them back, and at a minimum you'll become a better person that will be more attractive to SOMEBODY in your next relationship.
Puppy
Puppy - I read the setting them free thread a while ago. It's time to read it all over again. The one thing I have not tried yet is truly setting her free. I'm not sure I can even honestly do it for real, but hopefully reading the thread again will help me.
I really don't have another choice other than licking up crumbs, which satisfies me in the moment, but even I know it doesn't help long term.
I really don't have another choice other than licking up crumbs, which satisfies me in the moment, but even I know it doesn't help long term.
You ALWAYS have choices. You may not WANT TO CHOOSE THEM, but you ALWAYS have choices.
C'mon, that's weak.
Puppy
I know I have choices Puppy. But at this point there really are only 2.
I can keep licking up crumbs and hope to get back to where we were 2 months ago and then hope to move forward from there - or
try setting her free.
Maybe you should think of it as setting yourself free, rather than her. You're in a self imposed prison. You deserve more than crumbs, everyone does.
"Hope" isn't much of a plan, BTM.
The Good Book says, "there is wisdom in many counselors." Yes, we are supposed to have faith, and hope, but we are also to be WISE, and seek COUNSEL, and then boldly act on that counsel, praying for strength if we need to.
What you are doing isn't good for you OR your wife, and it's really sad to me that this is what you're teaching your son.
Puppy
"Hope" isn't much of a plan, BTM.
The Good Book says, "there is wisdom in many counselors." Yes, we are supposed to have faith, and hope, but we are also to be WISE, and seek COUNSEL, and then boldly act on that counsel, praying for strength if we need to.
What you are doing isn't good for you OR your wife, and it's really sad to me that this is what you're teaching your son.
Puppy
That's my point Puppy. Hope really isn't a choice, so my only one is to somehow set her free. I can hope in one hand and s_it in the other and I know which will get full first.
What I am doing must not be good for me or after 8 months of separation I would be more than happy to set her free. But, I think I have done a good job of only letting my son see so much of my struggle. I think my kids believe I am doing much better than I really am.
ok, maybe I misunderstood you. If you're saying that the only hope you have is to finally set her free, then I agree with you. "Licking up crumbs" is no way to live -- even for a mongrel dog.
Puppy (who knows a thing or two about dogs)
I think "setting them free" is a choice we have to make over and over. We make the decision and are firm about it, but something happens and we might waiver, but we have to re-affirm to ourselves that we are setting them free. I think it is too much to expect that it will "take" on the first try, but it is something to keep striving for. Aren't we too good for crumbs at this stage of our lives?????
Dagny
Update...
No contact with WAW since last Sunday when we had dinner with the kids. Kids told me she is not coming over tomorrow (Sunday) since she is getting ready for a party at her place on Sunday. She certainly is much better at GAL than me. I doubt that's the only reason she isn't coming over.
I am sticking with my goal of not contacting her. A co-worker wants to set me up with her 26 yo friend. I saw pictures on FB. She is hot!!!! Today I finally said she could invite her to a company outing in September as my date. Considering I am 41 with a 19 yo daughter it seems kinda crazy for me to date a 26 yo, but I have to start somewhere and I could do worse!
I do plan on having the setting her free talk with WAW in the near future, but other than that, I hope I can resist the temptation to contact and have the guts to go through with my date.
BTM,
Why have the talk? Just do it...
The talk seems more targeted for when they're hedging/limbo'ing in your house, not when your separated.
BTM,
Why have the talk? Just do it...
The talk seems more targeted for when they're hedging/limbo'ing in your house, not when your separated.
I think it's time for me to let her know she's free - for her sake. And saying it out loud to her will also help me actually do it. I also want to apologize for some things I did in the past in order to move forward.
WAW called me last night regarding an issue with S16. Friends of ours happened to be visiting when she called. I was polite and friendly, but made sure I ended the call first and only discussed that matter she called about and didn't try to keep her on the phone.
I'm feeling a little more each day like I am finally starting to drop the rope. Life is more enjoyable when I am not constantly concerned about what WAW is thinking and doing.
Awesome, BTM. Didn't it feel good to not feel needy, and want to keep her on the phone. I bet you would've acted differently a short time ago. I used to do that, and then someone told me on this bb to always end the call.
Take care.
Awesome, BTM. Didn't it feel good to not feel needy, and want to keep her on the phone. I bet you would've acted differently a short time ago. I used to do that, and then someone told me on this bb to always end the call.
Take care.
It was a good thing friends were over visiting. It gave me a reason to get off the phone quick. The whole call lasted less than 2 minutes.
What part of Canada are you in BM?
I'm in BC. I lived in ON about 14 years ago. I like Toronto, although it is somewhat too big for me. I remember the horror of the 401. My H was on business there last week and was rear-ended on that same highway ... ugh!
One of my co-workers, who I am good friends with became a father for the first time last night. WAW and I were at his wedding a few years ago.
Anyway..when I found out about the birth of his daughter, I wanted to share that with my WAW. It was all I could do to not call her. I have been doing quite well at detaching recently, but moments like this make me realize that I still have a way to go.
Some days are tougher than others...
Update...
I made a dbing no-no and called WAW a couple days ago. I admitted that I called just to check in. We wound up talking longer than I thought we would. There was some R talk, but I told her I would prefer to discuss that face to face.
Yesterday, WAW showed up at my house unannounced. Kids and I were just about to have tacos for dinner. WAW made dinner for us, visited for a while and then went home. She was here to see S16, but it's been a while since she came to the house at all.
This morning, she called me regarding billing issues with my cell phone. Again, first time she contacted me in a while.
I can view these things as crumbs or baby steps, but at least it appears she is once again getting comfortable being around me and that bodes well for the future regardless of the final outcome.
I forgot to mention that when WAW and I talked on phone that day, she said she wants to make dinner at the house on Sundays again. She also told S16 she couldn't do so this coming Sunday since she is working.
One of my short term goals was to have her get back to coming over on Sundays on her own accord. It looks like that just might happen. It's not much, but it's better than moving the other way.
Today WAW texted me "you and S16 should come for dinner tonight". I ignored. A short time later my son texted about same thing. So, I took him to the restaurant my WAW manages that D19 also works at.
WAW hugged me when we left. It sure seems like she is initiating contact lately.
WAW called me twice today. The first time regarding some cell phone billing issues. The second time regarding her latest doctor appointment. I was friendly both times, but not clingy in any way. Both times she asked about Thanksgiving dinner. Again, I acted "as if" it was no big deal, and said "I'm sure the kids would like a home cooked meal". The last week or so, she seems to be initiating contact much more than any other time recently.
Today S16 and I were at a store beside the restaurant my WAW manages. I stopped by so he could go in and say hi to her. She asked him to come out and get me. We wound up having lunch with WAW. She thanked me for bringing him in and when we left she again initiated a hug and kissed me on the cheek. This can be so confusing!!
Journalling..
Yesterday WAW and I went out for dinner with S16, D19 and her D's boyfriend. Before that, WAW and I took S16 shopping for work clothes, since WAW just hired him to work very part time for her.
At dinner we were discussing the restaurant next door, where WAW and I had anniversary dinner a few years ago. WAW commented on how good I looked that evening. At end of night, WAW and I had a "real" hug before she went home.
Today I texted WAW "thanks for dinner (she paid). It was nice to have everyone together and to see you".
Her response: "Yes it was nice. I had fun. I miss that family time soo much".
has she felt you let go?
I mean has she felt that you are moving on with your life?
Or does she still feel that you would literally jump at the offer to get her back home?
I'm glad she paid for dinner, that was one positive out of all of this. I'm glad you had a good time at the dinner with her. I don't know if this helped in any way with your relationship with her.
has she felt you let go?
I mean has she felt that you are moving on with your life?
Or does she still feel that you would literally jump at the offer to get her back home?
I'm glad she paid for dinner, that was one positive out of all of this. I'm glad you had a good time at the dinner with her. I don't know if this helped in any way with your relationship with her.
I don't know what she feels. I am moving on with life more than ever, but still have not entirely let go. I hope she knows I am open to reconciliation, but would not jump at just any offer.
I think it's time for an "all cards on the table" talk and then move on from there in one definite direction or the other.
bro it is not time for an "all cards on the table talk",
she has seen your hand for quite some time, she knows your cards,
you on the other hand are the one hoping to get a glimpse of her cards.
You're still attached,
she hasn't felt you let go at all,
a talk like this will confirm it to her and you will just get more of the same.
Let go, I mean really let go.
The sooner you do, the sooner you may actually see any positive results in your situation.
Another talk will not work.
If you need a "talk" to move on in one definite direction or another, then you have not moved on. A decisive man would have made the decision without requiring a "talk" to confirm what he wants to do.
What would your talk accomplish?
What would you say?
"Look wife, I've had enough of this separation business, come home now so that we can be in love again otherwise I'm moving on, this time I mean it!"
That won't work.
"Yes it was nice. I had fun. I miss that family time soo much".
she hasn't felt you let go at all
Things are nice and fun, she doesn't miss you.
WAW started a game of Scrabble with me on FB. Without even thinking, I played my turn. Not a big thing I guess.
Today WAW called me at work to tell me about a bad dream she had about me last night. She is on Champix again to help her quite smoking. She used it (somewhat...obvioulsly) successfully in the past. It also caused her to have crazy dreams then as well.
Anyway...she said she called "just to hear my voice" to feel better about the dream and the stressful week she has had. I talked for a little while, discussed a couple issues with kids and ended the conversation.
If she knew I have a date with a 25 year old this weekend she might not be calling......
I have a question you probably should think about.
Why did you walk right past robx's last post as well as coach's last post?
robx is giving you gold. I know it's not what you want to hear, it wasn't when I read his posts earlier on in my sitch. The tendency is to reject it.
She's keeping you at a certain distance. You're the cushion. The backup. You see crumbs and baby steps, I see you moving away and her succesfully pulling you back to the distance she wants you at.
Did you ever decline any offer of a get together with her? Ever say no? Ever think of just letting the phone ring to voicemail when she calls? A person can't chase something that's not moving away.
If she knew I have a date with a 25 year old this weekend she might not be calling......
This one sentence tells me where you're at.
Go study, and I mean
study what robx wrote in his last post. Then post what you see on your thread here.
...I think it's time for an "all cards on the table" talk and then move on from there in one definite direction or the other.
...
If she knew I have a date with a 25 year old this weekend she might not be calling......
It's hard to be congruent and straight with someone else if you're not congruent with yourself. One moment you want a "all cards on the table" talk and move on from there in one "definite direction" and the next day you have a date with a 25 year old.
Which is it?
I suppose I should have mentioned that I ignored two calls to my cell and told her I was busy the first time she called me at work, before I actually took her call and talked with her.
...I think it's time for an "all cards on the table" talk and then move on from there in one definite direction or the other.
...
If she knew I have a date with a 25 year old this weekend she might not be calling......
It's hard to be congruent and straight with someone else if you're not congruent with yourself. One moment you want a "all cards on the table" talk and move on from there in one "definite direction" and the next day you have a date with a 25 year old.
Which is it?
Much like my WAW, I suppose, I am keeping her as my "cushion" while I taste the single world. MMMMM.......cake.
I think this is the beginning of you moving on, which I think is a good thing overall. She told you she's not coming home back in July, those were her "cards" that you were asking for previously, maybe you just didn't want to believe it. I'm still going to stick to my original thought that there is someone else or was someone else and she's just in transition right now, looking for the next one.
As for you, a little cake eating sometimes becomes part of the equation of moving on, but it's part of the overall transformation, - go with it, have fun, no worries.
She has communicated she doesn't want to be with you,
she's moved out, said she's not coming back, didn't want to work on a marriage with you, doesn't want a life with you, etc. those were all her decisions, time for you to decide what YOU want to do with your life.
...I'm going to tweak my advice above, just a little,
maybe you need a LOT of cake eating added to your diet.
My logic on this is...
a little for you will actually be very little,
you will be hesitant because you are so used to serving your wife, trying to win her back, trying to be super nice, kiss way too much a$$ (and not sexually either) trying to buy gifts, dinners, vacations, everything - you name it, trying to change everything to gain her approval and regain her affection (which hasn't worked at all, you have to admit that) that you haven't spent a lot of time focusing on you and being "selfish" for a while.
Yes I said be selfish.
You're looking for the happy medium in your life, where you are really comfortable with who you are that you don't care if your wife accepts you or not, you just care if you accept who you are and how your life is, you don't want to be a "nice guy" all your life but you don't want to be an a$$hole either but for you since you've held yourself back all this time literally hanging on to crumbs and feeling content just to get a whiff of a fart she passes in your general direction.
I think you need to go in the opposite direction for a little while, you've been at the extreme left side of this equation forever, now you need to swing over to the far right for a while and be all about you and stop worrying about your wife and winning her back and trying to come up with some way for her love you again. You will literally end up giving yourself a heart attack or some other life threatening medical issue if you keep doing what you're doing.
Some people may read this and get shocked or pissed off or angry or think I'm trying to turn you into some caveman a$$hole but I'm not, I think for you just based on the fact that you've been at this for what seems like forever (you were here several years ago doing the same thing remember), you need to spread those wings all the way and experience life on that bleeding edge.
Once you've experienced both ends of this spectrum, you will know what your happy medium resting place will be. A little counter intuitive but I think it fits for you. Go out with that woman tomorrow, have a great time and make sure you enjoy yourself and don't worry about impressing her, just go out and enjoy YOURSELF.
We expect a full report, ttyl bro!
you don't want to be a "nice guy" all your life but you don't want to be an a$$hole either but for you since you've held yourself back all this time literally hanging on to crumbs and feeling content just to get a whiff of a fart she passes in your general direction.
Yeah, don't settle for cropdusting!
...I'm going to tweak my advice above, just a little,
maybe you need a LOT of cake eating added to your diet.
Just for fun.25 minutes left in the week. what else can go wrong, betty crocker?
MARTHA STEWART + RACHEL RAY + PAULA DEEN = WAR!
Thursday September 23, 2010
DOMESTIC divas Martha Stewart , Rachel Ray and Paula Deen are embroiled in a bitter feud, it has been claimed.
Martha, Rachel and Paula
According to American tabloid the National Enquirer, the trio are fighting for TV ratings, sales of their magazines and cookbooks, as well as buyers for their vast array of products.
“Martha, Rachael and Paula are in a crowded market, and they’re competing for each other’s audience,” a source said.
“Each one of them wants desperately to be number one, and they’re in a dogfight that’s gotten down and dirty!
“While Martha was gracious to Rachael, she craftily proceeded to make mincemeat out of her by exploiting her weaknesses, especially getting Rachael to admit that she can’t bake.
“Martha delivered a near-steady barrage of subtle digs at Rachael, who looked really uncomfortable.
“When there were published reports that Rachael may have made racist comments about Oprah when she had too much to drink one night, Martha laughed, ‘Rachael is a drunk’.
“The nasty gossip Martha spreads has gotten back to Rachael – and Rachael dishes about Martha in return. It’s a vicious cycle between them,” said a source close to Rachael.
“Rachael has even cracked, ‘I’d love to slap Martha!
“Rachel thinks Paula s a ‘hillbilly’ who cooks with unhealthy ingredients and serves up fried, fatty foods.
“Martha can’t stand what Paula makes. She says it’s just fat-laden comfort food with no aspiration toward art in the kitchen.
“She says Paula is going to turn America into a nation of obese housewives! Martha has even laughed that Paula is a hillbilly.
“Paula harbors no personal resentment against Rachael or Martha, but she’s a competitor, and her popularity is growing.
“She definitely wants to be number one, and if that happens, it’ll crush Martha and Rachael in the process.”
I don't know who Paula Deen is, so forgive me but I'm familiar with Martha and Rachel, if any of these 3 make a good cake, send it over to BTM, he's ready to eat some ;-)
The logic is this,
BTM has been eating crumbs and tries to be happy with that but honestly he isn't (who would be crumbs suck),
I'm hoping he go through the experience of trying to eat an entire cake, hopefully he'll find out after both experiences that all he really ever wanted was a decent piece: not too much, not too little, but enough to satisfy him without feeling shortchanged.
Big Update.....
Had the blind date with the 25 year old on Saturday night as part of a group company outing. It went well, but obviously issues with the age difference. It was a big step for me (first date in over 20 years with someone other than WAW) and I now know I still "got game".
I told S16 and D19 about the date. Yes, even her age. I am very open with my kids about everything. D19 (of course) told WAW. So, WAW called me today. It actually went quite well. She was upset that I did not tell her before telling kids, but I had asked a few times recently to talk. She simply works too much to find time.
During our chat I told WAW that she was the one who told me to date - and most likely because she was already dating. She claims she has not dated anyone at all. I actually believe her. No reason at all to lie at this point.
I have other prospects for dates as well. The times they are a changing....
I will tell WAW one more time, that I would still like to share my life with her, but if she can't do that I have finally started to move on with my life. Today I actually thanked her for giving me my life back.
I've been feeling confident and happy the last few days more than at any time in the last year. It's about time!
NO!
Do not tell WAW that you would still like to share your life with her.
She needs to feel that you've moved on,
only when she feels this, will the possibility of her feelings returning for you ever happen.
If you bring up that you still want to be with her,
it will come off as you dating to make her jealous and that will blow up in your face.
Continue feeling confident and happy,
do not give your wife any details about the women you are dating, just do it. If she asks just tell her that you do not think it's a good idea for you to talk to her about the women you've been seeing. You've finally realized that waiting for your wife to make up her mind was never going to work. She told you to date, she told you she wasn't coming back, you finally got the message and there is no use in crying over spilled milk, what's done is done and you know it's over for good and you're finally ok with the marriage being over and you're just sorry it took so long for you to finally get the message and understand it.
And that's it.
You don't ever tell her one more time (which becomes several times after that because you will feel that you have to repeat it so that she hears you, NO! never tell her she has a chance, she has to feel that LOST her chance) that you want to be with her, she will only feel those "feelings" for you when she "feels" that you are moving on. She can't want something she has, she can only want something she doesn't have... which is YOU.
You're doing good, keep on going in this direction,
you finally caught the ball, don't fumble it, keep moving in that direction and things will get clearer for you as you progress, you will learn the "game" for lack of a better description and you will get better at playing this game and you will finally feel the momentum of the situation switch over to your side where it should have been for a long time now. We told you to do this a long time ago, I'm glad you finally took that leap of faith and did what you had to do.
OK Rob. I needed that. I think I am actually a little scared that I am truly ok with the end of the marriage and almost apprehensive about finding too much happiness elsewhere. I hope that makes sense.
Gotta tell this part - this morning I stopped by WAW's workplace to drop off clothes for S16 who started working there today. WAW asked if my pants were new. "Yes" I said. "They make your ___ look big" was her response. We talked for a few minutes about a work issue of mine. She asked for a hug when I left and I gave her one.
By the way...she cried during our phone conversation and made a comment about being "gipped" because I am now going to meet someone, fall in love and they are going to get the better me.
I thought that was a big thing. No?
OK Rob. I needed that. I think I am actually a little scared that I am truly ok with the end of the marriage and almost apprehensive about finding too much happiness elsewhere. I hope that makes sense.
Gotta tell this part - this morning I stopped by WAW's workplace to drop off clothes for S16 who started working there today. WAW asked if my pants were new. "Yes" I said. "They make your ___ look big" was her response. We talked for a few minutes about a work issue of mine. She asked for a hug when I left and I gave her one.
By the way...she cried during our phone conversation and made a comment about being "gipped" because I am now going to meet someone, fall in love and they are going to get the better me.
I thought that was a big thing. No?
..By the way...she cried during our phone conversation and made a comment about being "gipped" because I am now going to meet someone, fall in love and they are going to get the better me.
Don't get too impressed,
this is actually very common, more WAW script.
Think about it, they had access to you all this time,
they could have worked on the marriage when they had a chance but chose to handle things on their own timetable.
She was the one who was supposed to dump you and move on to a better life with a better man but when you move on before she does, when it appears that you find someone better than her, their value scheme gets messed up, it's not how the story was supposed to work out in their point of view, they imagined a very different story and now their reality is turned upside down.
Think about it, her response was that she was "gipped",
that statement isn't flattering to you, she feels shortchanged but didn't she leave you, isn't this what she wanted? She prefers you in your sad, defeated, clingy state because it validates her ideas about you. It's not attractive to her when you are in these states but she does enjoy the fact that she holds the power in the relationship. When she loses power, when the relationship dynamic shifts in your favor, it feels uncomfortable for her because she has had the power in this relationship for such a long time. That's ok, this is a good thing.
Her comment about your .... pants, is just a way to test you, to see if she still has a way of getting her claws in you and attempting to regain control. I wouldn't be surprised if she attempted to have sex with you, to tag you and keep you in control, she knows that to you, sex would mean an emotional connection, you would believe she loves you, but in reality she would be doing that to "mark her territory" (you) to reclaim what is hers, not to work on the marriage or the relationship.
When she wants to work on the relationship,
you will know it. She will make it known to you in a way that you will be able to tell that she is real and not fake or manipulative. She will work hard to regain your trust and prove her love to you.
Beware of the fake sex she will offer you,
it will be good sex but it won't have anything to do with your relationship, when it happens, you know I told you it would and let us know, we will guide you to making that opportunity work in your favor.
You are doing much better and I'm happy to finally see it happen. You apparently finally hit that "threshold" I mentioned months ago, good things will be happening for you now regardless of your wife and your current relationship status with her.
Again Rob - thanks.
I finally have hit a threshold of some sort and now I can do the things I should/could have done before, because now it's real, not just playing the game.
Thanks for never giving up on me.
I guess WAW doesn't like me taking her advice and dating.
Her FB status currently reads: "Really?!?! What a waste of time".
Funny.
her status update if it pertains to you is actually a good thing,
she actually feels that you're moving on and letting her go,
it really is the only time that a chance of her realizing what she is losing will occur.
You're doing good.
I guess WAW doesn't like me taking her advice and dating.
Her FB status currently reads: "Really?!?! What a waste of time".
Funny.
Don't comment on it. If she thinks you are going out to get a reaction out of you then you will lose. She really needs to feel you letting go. If you are really letting go you wouldn't care what she thinks.
She was the one who was supposed to dump you and move on to a better life with a better man but when you move on before she does, when it appears that you find someone better than her, their value scheme gets messed up, it's not how the story was supposed to work out in their point of view, they imagined a very different story and now their reality is turned upside down.
So true, I'm living proof of this^^^^^^
I'm about to go over 100 pages.... Is there a lifetime achievement award for that??
I did not comment at all on her FB status, and yes, it is a good thing.
At the risk of RobX getting angry....here's an update...
Last Thurs I texted WAW and asked if she wanted to have tea at her place after work. I know...I know...no persuing. But, trust me on this one, it wasn't that kind of thing at all and it was a tactical move.
Anyway...I went and we talked about some kids stuff, work etc. She initiated a cuddle of sorts, but I made sure to take things no further than how you would treat a friend having a bad day, which she was. She said several times that she misses me etc.
The most interesting things were what she texted when I left. I will quote directly from my phone:
"You just left. The pain I feel is physical. I miss you more than I can verbalize"
Seeing you is torture to me. I don't think you understand that"
"I love you. Completely. This is very difficult"
"That's ok. Used to being alone and in pain. Good to see you though".
The last one was in response to my only response which basically was "not sure what to say" kind of thing.
I have made no mention of the texts since then and have acted like nothing happened.
I am GAL more than ever and that one date with the 25 year old has opened my mind to dating more and all of a sudden there are women everywhere. As I said to WAW (yes on purpose) "I must be putting off single vibes now".
It seems that WAW is starting to feel that I am FINALLY moving on and since it's real now, she knows that too.
I am feeling the best I have in the last year and for the first time ever I am truly doubting if I actually want to save my marriage after all.
Robx - Coach - Puppy etc. It took me way to long to get here and all I can say once again, is thanks for not giving up on me, even when I deserved it!!!
Thought you might like to read a recent post from Gucci:
Fascinating to observe that you both want someone who doesn't want you back.
And yet you fail to get it through your head that the very thing that will give you your best chance to turn this around is to do what works. The FACT is that what the OM did WORKED..
He dumped HER.. She still pines for him deep inside her heart.
Her ego is bruised because he DUMPED her...
Women HATE to be dumped... (which is why the facts show that YOU should dump her too. She obviously responds better to men who can take or leave her.
Fascinating that you can't see or understand why what you keep doing doesn't work. Fascinating.
...I am GAL more than ever and that one date with the 25 year old has opened my mind to dating more and all of a sudden there are women everywhere. As I said to WAW (yes on purpose) "I must be putting off single vibes now".
It seems that WAW is starting to feel that I am FINALLY moving on and since it's real now, she knows that too.
I am feeling the best I have in the last year and for the first time ever I am truly doubting if I actually want to save my marriage after all.
Thought you might like to read a recent post from Gucci:
Fascinating to observe that you both want someone who doesn't want you back.
And yet you fail to get it through your head that the very thing that will give you your best chance to turn this around is to do what works. The FACT is that what the OM did WORKED..
He dumped HER.. She still pines for him deep inside her heart.
Her ego is bruised because he DUMPED her...
Women HATE to be dumped... (which is why the facts show that YOU should dump her too. She obviously responds better to men who can take or leave her.
Fascinating that you can't see or understand why what you keep doing doesn't work. Fascinating.
...I am GAL more than ever and that one date with the 25 year old has opened my mind to dating more and all of a sudden there are women everywhere. As I said to WAW (yes on purpose) "I must be putting off single vibes now".
It seems that WAW is starting to feel that I am FINALLY moving on and since it's real now, she knows that too.
I am feeling the best I have in the last year and for the first time ever I am truly doubting if I actually want to save my marriage after all.
It's not that you doubt if you actually want to save your marriage, it's no longer the center of your universe. You're ok if it had worked out, you're ok if it doesn't, life is still good regardless of the outcome, you're no longer attached to the outcome. You're no longer desperate, needy or clingy, you're confident. Huge difference in how you view life now. And you're realization that there are "women everywhere" and that you're putting out single vibes, that is is a confident attitude, it's an attitude of abundance and I'm very confident that your wife feels this now, feels that you are letting go of her because you finally realize that there are millions of women out there and you are confident enough to get any one of them, that you won't let one woman destroy your life because she was indecisive and didn't feel like being married anymore.
That is an attractive attitude, you finally DECIDED to move on.
Wife you don't want me, that's ok, I respect your decision, I'm finding out that I have a ton of choices and the possibilities are limitless. Think of the attitude, it's not cocky or arrogant, it's confident, it's relaxed, it's not limiting, it's happy, it's great, it's full of life, it shows ambition and leadership ability on your part, it's decisive, it's assertive, it's having a plan for your life - these are all things that make you very attractive.
You haven't shown your wife any of these qualities for who knows how long and now you are, and she's seeing them again for what seems like the first time and guess what, her reality is changing just like your reality is. She was making the decisions before, calling the shots, and you felt powerless, couldn't do anything to change her mind, couldn't do anything, to make her see things differently because you were trying to change her mind about you. That never works, how can you forcefully change someone else without them resenting you for it forever? You can't!
So what worked?
You let go.
You accepted her decision.
You moved on.
You finally woke up and realized that "hey this is not the end of my world! It's the beginning of new opportunities for me!"
You can see better now, more clearly.
You aren't limited,
You have MANY options,
you have an abundance attitude,
before you were like "I'll never find another woman, I only want my wife" and she didn't want you at all, she told you so.
Now you're like "There are so many women, they're everywhere, I'm single, there's 1000 of them, there is only ONE of ME!"
You "flipped the script",
she didn't want you,
it's her loss,
now she actually sees that,
you enabled her to feel this way because you accepted her decision and didn't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you.
Took you long enough to get to this point (seriously),
but I told you it would happen when you allowed yourself to make it happen.
Seriously bro, you made me happy reading your post today,
today is a good day indeed.
- my boy is finally growing up!
LOL!
Have a great day!
RobX - I really don't have words to respond properly.
Except for...yes...yes...yes...yes....and I am so proud that you are proud of me.
Life is pretty freakin' cool. As I said to WAW a few days ago "thanks for giving me my life back. I needed that".
Hi guys --
Please start a new thread. This thread is getting a bit too long, so I'm locking it. Shorter threads improve the speed and flow of this online community.
Thanks.