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Posted By: Butterfly1 I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/19/09 07:28 PM
I identify with many of the posters on this forum. I have read the books and tried the techniques. At this point I'm afraid that it all just leads to letting them walk out the door, instead of rebuilding marriage. 180's, GAL, Going Dark, these just seem to give up and I know that chasing, begging, R talks don't help, but does the opposite ever help?
Separated four months now - my husband left. We've gone back and forth. A couple of times I thought he was coming back, he even slept in the bed once. But now he is back to - things will never change, if you haven't changed in eight years, how will you ever change, etc. When he comes over he yells about every detail that isn't changing.
Last night I felt progress, we had a family dinner with our son, for the first time in many days he didn't yell at me, when I showed interest in his life, he seemed open to sharing it instead of the usual closing down and "you never cared about my life you dont care now", and when I said I loved him, he said he loved me too, "for what that's worth and it's not worth much."
He has said that he doesn't see how anything is going to change and if he had to decide today he'd divorce me. We went to three therapy sessions and he went on and on about he doesn't see how coming back will be any different than the last time we were in therapy. He is afraid to trust.
However, I'm still waiting to hear if he will return. I have hope but it's hard. Any encouragement or advice will be welcomed.
Posted By: pigskin Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/19/09 07:32 PM
Welcome to the board. Sorry you have to be here, but there are lots of people in the same boat as you and you'll get plenty of support.

The people here do care. Keep reading.
Welcome. You will find a lot of people here who can relate closely with your situation.

As I understand it, the information in the books is not all about giving up. It is about changing things that aren't working. If what we were doing in the past wasn't working, do something different. Maybe going dark isn't the option for you. Doing a 180 from what you have been doing may though. It appears from what you wrote that your husband wants to see change.

Do you see things in your life that you could/should/want to change? Do you see ways to improve yourself? (for yourself and for your marriage) Unless you try something new, H will continue to feel that nothing is changing. (even after things change it will likely take him a while to see it)

Some of the things depend on your situation too. For example, if he feels that he has been neglected you would want to treat it a lot differently than if he has been feeling smothered or nagged.

One thing I do know is that forcing relationship talks rarely goes well. Pursuing doesn't generally pan out for the better either.

Can you give any more information on your situation?

What would H like to see changed?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/19/09 08:20 PM
Thank you! Your support PIgskin and Giving really help lift my spirits.
He has recently opened up a list of things he needed "for years" but for a long time hid inside. Some changes are :

-taking better care of the house and yard - he is much neater than I am and I realize what I am comfortable with is not what he is comfortable with - cleaner desks, cleaner yard, no dishes in sink, etc.

- not interrupting him or walking away - this is hard when he is screaming at me, but I guess I have to do it. Also, my therapist told me I should walk away if he is being verbally abusive, so there's a conflict there in my mind.

- staying calm - oh this has been my hardest one because we are both volatile people and I get resentful that he only sees that I should stay calm while he admits he should be able to swear, vent, yell, whatever he feels. But he says I am the one who has been too volitile over the years all I can do is take responsibility fo rmy part in it. However, when I do express remorse, appologize, say I am working on it in therapy, etc, he just says he doesn't believe me so I don't know what to do.

-he doesn't want me to say "you do it to" although our therapist agrees we both have habits that lead to horrible fights, he does not in any way want to feel blamed. I understand this because I don't either. However, I am trying to be the one who changes. It just hurts to be blamed myself.

- doing what I say I will do - follow through. He is nitpicking every little thing I do or don't do but I need to be extra careful or else he explodes at the tiniest thing.

-admit our side of our sex issues - again, it's both of us, but I guess he's not willing to look at his side now. So I need to not ask him. I don't know how I can take more resp. here if he won't touch me!

That's all I can think of now - I've told him I'm joining coda and a sex abuse support group to work on myself and he still doesn't believe me...and I can't get to the housework until my son is back in school next month. Ugh. every night he is either gone or droppin in to yell about what I've done wrong. It's very depressing.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/19/09 08:23 PM
Oh, and he feels neglected, not pressured. In the past I have done things that made him feel neglected which I didn't realize before - like not sharing in his interests, not showing an interest in his work, being gone a lot at night. I have started being home every night, showing interest in his life, etc. hope it takes.
Well If he's felt neglected, "Going Dark" probably would be a bad idea. I wouldn't push R talks either.

I am no expert. I have learned a lot from the past 10 months of my own situation, but since I am still in process, I can only claim to be successful with changing myself, not my wife. It seems to me though that once a spouse is ready to walk away they aren't going to "snap out" of it quickly. You'll need to prepare yourself for this being a long period of growth for the two of you. (I assume that you have made a choice to love your husband and work through this)

It looks like you are well aware of the issues. Are these things that you are willing to work on? Are you prepared to be the one who initiates change and stop doing the same old things that don't work? Easy to say...tough to do. Especially when you're in the heat of an arguement.

I'm in the middle of the book "The Dance of Anger." It may be a good one for you. It addresses some of the very issues that you mentioned. (how to argue...I mean have "conversations" more effectively...trying something new etc.)

Staying calm, following through, not blaming, and not nit-picking are likely going to be hard habits to break, but not impossible. This may be a great opportunity to grow as a person.

Do you have kids, how long married etc?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/21/09 02:59 AM
Thank you, GivingMyAll,
Yes I am ready to do the changes myself. When we first separated, four months ago, I wanted him to change with me. I didn't want to feel blamed and I wanted us to work together. That's why it's four months later and my H says he doesn't see enough changes of what I said I'd do. I was making it contingent on his self responsiblity as well.

It wasn't until we went to a MC (three sessions now) that I heard the therapist say we are both arguing in damaging, hurful ways. I was at first devastated that he didn't back me up on how horrible my husband was being. Then I got it. i was blaming as much as he was. I was fighting as much as he was. i was justifying my behavior when it looked a lot like his.

Unfortunately, it may be too late. My husband says he told me he would give me four months to see changes and now he hasn't. When I say I'm seeing things in a new light, he doesn't believe me. He says what many people on this board say their spouses say - that the same problems have been going on for too many years and they don't believe anything can change.

My changes are very new. I can only hope he hangs on and acknowledges my changes eventually. It feels like the end but he hasn't filed papers so that's good. he's threatened to not go back to the therapist, but he hasn't actually missed an appointment yet.

So here I am in my new effort to not blame, argue, nitpick, while he is still throwing punches left and right. We have a four year old son, so when he comes over to take care of him, he is either cold and distant, or very nitpicky and angry. I see babysteps. He's been so enraged the last month that anytime he was even here he was exploding over the littlest thing. Now it's down to nitpicking which is tough to handle, but better than explosions. The CD player's power was still on. It's a few complaints each time, then back to coldness.

It's painful but I'm determined not to engage in arguments.

I saw him thaw out a bit when I made family dinner the other night. He even invited me to watch a show with him (our evening ritual before this all went down). I was so excited. Unfortunately, he worked for a few hours on his computer then came out angry and tired and not willing to watch a show. But the offer was a small change. It meant a lot to him that I had showed interest in his work and hobbies, something he needed for years that I never gave him.

We had a couple good days of calm conversation over the phone - mostly about household and childcare stuff but still it was calm and that was a small improvement.

Right now he is putting my son to sleep and I don't know what to do. I should just stay in the bedroom and let him have space (he sleeps on the couch). But of course since he offered to watch a show the other night, I want to go in there and offer to watch one with him. I don't want to push him away, but the coldness in the house is killing me.

I hope I can hang in there through all this time and space. I guess if I stay calm and show interest in his life and work on following through, I can only hope it will pay off - some day.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/21/09 03:53 AM
Well I compromised with myself. I went in and asked him to let me know if he wants to watch a show, then left the room. He is genuinely exhausted and laying on the couch. I'm trying not to take this as a rejection, as I normally would (hey, that's a 180!) and just quietly returned to my room to do things that make myself happy. It's hard but I guess that's how I should handle things!
(((((Hope)))))

It seems to me that the biggest thing you can work on R wise is trying to break the cycle of anger that you both seem to feed. In my opinion, the problem isn't really things like how the house is, it's more how you both react to it. Since you can't control his reaction, any change has to start though you. The, hopefully, he changes his actions as well.

I'd also say that listening to him does not mean listening to him yell at you. I would be mightily tempted to say, "H, I want to hear what you have to say, and to discuss it. But I will not be yelled at this way. IF you want to talk about xyz, I'll be in the next room." Of course, how can you say that while he is yelling? I've never heard of this, so it may be a whacky idea.... how about preparing a note in advance? When he starts yelling, hand him the note, and leave the room. If the two of you can communicate with respect, maybe there can be progress.

Also, for communication, you might want to consider Retrouvaille. http://www.retrouvaille.org/
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/21/09 07:37 AM
Thank you VH. You are right. I've been working very hard the last two weeks to stop the cycle of arguing. Like I said before, my usual stance was to want H to control his reactions and his anger, and to not want to change until he does. This has been my stance for years. I'm finally getting it that I no longer can wait for him to be nice, or calm, or fair, or whatever. I have a choice as to my words and actions only. I am working really hard on this and still slip sometimes but I feel good at the progress.

The walking away when he's yelling at me is so hard. My C tells me exactly what you said, that listening to him yell or vent is not helpful and isn't "hearing each other". But H thinks if I leave, I "don't care" and "don't want to hear him". I have said over and over again exactly what you suggested almost word for word! It enrages him more. So if I get him to keep coming to counselling, this is something I intend to bring up.

He says he feels raw like his hurts are just hanging out exposed to be set off at the tiniest thing. They are hurts from the past. I just have to remind myself of that and not take it in that it is about the nitpicky thing.

Ps After a nap, he invited me to the living room to watch a show. We laughed together. This used to be our evening ritual before the bomb and this is the first time we have shared this since. Baby steps! He's still threatening to be gone all weekend, however, so I should n't get my hopes up.

The MC says that if I can stay calm and do my changes for a month, it will give him more leverage to back me up in the counselling to ask H directly if he notices my changes and to then talk about him making changes too. But until then, the work is mine.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/21/09 07:46 AM
PS, I've never tried the note, but we have been known to email each other - from the other room of the same house!
(((((Hope)))))
I know it's hard to deal with anger like that. Dont' think too much about the long term. When things start to get hot, just concentrate on the moment, and see if you can keep your anger under control. Even a little bit might make a difference. If you don't escalate, it might cut him off at the pass!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/21/09 06:44 PM
THanks - I'm doing better at keeping my mouth shut, but it's the internal reactions that are hard to bear. I think they call this "fight or flight"? I get an enormous knot in my stomach and I get almost dizzy, like I can't think straight. Sitting still with those feelings is so painful. I'm working on self soothing. In the past, I just wanted him to stop - but asking, explaining, even walking away just escalated. That was during my better moments. During my worse, I would just start raising my voice to shout over him and there ya go, we're both being angry.

So, you are right. Concentrate on the moment , staying calm even if my internal emergency system is going off, and not allow the escalations of the past. Who knows, he might even notice! lol
Posted By: PainfulDusk Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/21/09 07:04 PM
hugs hope.

I completely agree with virtual on the "moment" thing. I have a "flash temper" myself so I can sympathize with the agony of keeping it tamped down.

Keep working on it, it does get easier.

Dusk
I think there were some suggestions in DB for this. Wasn't there something on "Controlled Fights?" Probably easier to write about than initiate, but it may be worth looking at.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/21/09 08:28 PM
I agree...stop the cycle of anger. It's crazy. No one is going to win. So stop.

Doing the 180’s, GALing, Going Dark, these are suggestions and that’s all. They do not always work and then work like a charm for others. You have to figure out your own situation and make the decision for you. (Going Dark did not work out well for me. 180’s GALing….made a HUGE difference in my life and situation.)

Stop saying I love you. It’s pressure. You have to remove pressure.

Yes, he is afraid to trust. Are you? Do you have trust issues with him too?

When it comes to his complaints….are you in agreement? Are these things you can work on and still be you? Still be proud of yourself and have self respect? If yes, go to work, if not, then don’t do it and explain to him why and if you need to ask him questions for clarification, do that too.

-taking better care of the house and yard - he is much neater than I am and I realize what I am comfortable with is not what he is comfortable with - cleaner desks, cleaner yard, no dishes in sink, etc.
Is this something you can do? Is this really a change you can make? I love a clean house, but not everyone is annoyed with a few dishes in the sink for a day. I sort of am. But I don’t tell anyone or complain about it, I just clean it. Because I’m willing to do that for as long as I’m healthy and able. I like cleaning. But do you?

- not interrupting him or walking away - this is hard when he is screaming at me, but I guess I have to do it. Also, my therapist told me I should walk away if he is being verbally abusive, so there's a conflict there in my mind.
Here’s one where I think you need to explain yourself. If someone is yelling and screaming at me, damn right, I’m walking away. If he’s talking to you and trying to communicate with you and you just don’t like what he’s saying so then you walk away, ok, he’s got a point. He needs to understand screaming at you get’s him left in the room alone. (Calm down and speak to each other. H and I are much better at this now and man, does it help with the blood pressure.)

- staying calm - oh this has been my hardest one because we are both volatile people and I get resentful that he only sees that I should stay calm while he admits he should be able to swear, vent, yell, whatever he feels. But he says I am the one who has been too volatile over the years all I can do is take responsibility for my part in it. However, when I do express remorse, apologize, say I am working on it in therapy, etc, he just says he doesn't believe me so I don't know what to do.
This one is simple. Just shut up and SHOW him. Do not engage him. I think a great 180 suggestion for you….speak calmly. He starts to interrupt you, you just stop talking. Wait until he’s done, start talking. He interrupts you again, stop talking. Eventually he’ll notice he’s the ass. Works like a charm for me.

-he doesn't want me to say "you do it to" although our therapist agrees we both have habits that lead to horrible fights, he does not in any way want to feel blamed. I understand this because I don't either. However, I am trying to be the one who changes. It just hurts to be blamed myself.
So stop it. But don’t let him do it to you either. “I have stopped blaming you….because I don’t want to be blamed either.”

- doing what I say I will do - follow through. He is nitpicking every little thing I do or don't do but I need to be extra careful or else he explodes at the tiniest thing.
I think these types of complaints are more tricky. Do you not follow through? If yes, would you like to change that about yourself? Or is he exaggerating….Yeah, I’ll pick up your dry cleaning? And then you forget?

Some really valuable advice I got here…you aren’t going to argue anything to him. You may be the dumbest person on earth right now and you can’t convince him of anything. Scream the truth and facts all you want….doesn’t hear you. So stop it. Show him your changes. Stop telling him you changed. He’ll have to see it. I’ve been at this for 9 months now and my H has flat out told me “Like the changes, not sure if it’s all BS….I’m waiting to see.” So they are watching. I’m lucky I got such great feedback.

If he’s really going to get on you about every little thing just to get on you, there’s nothing you can do but tell him “I’m sorry you think that, but I like me. If you have a suggestion as to how I can improve, I’ll take it under advisement…don’t’ expect me to incorporate the suggestion….like I said I do like me, but always open to possible improvements.”

Small improvements are good. Keep a journal of them. Be encouraged but keep working on you, for you.
If the yelling continues, you simply tell him, not yelling “I’m not going to be yelled at. When you are calmer and you have your thoughts in order, I’m ready to listen. I think that’s reasonable. Two adults talking out a disagreement.
Posted By: cbih Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/21/09 08:54 PM
That's a really good post, Stronger...it will be helpful to a lot of us. Thank you.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/22/09 02:40 AM
Stronger - this is amazing advice - of course what I know I should do, but I try to anazlyze why it becomes so hard in the moment. I'll post later in response after I put my son to bed. THank you all (((hugs)))
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/22/09 06:02 AM
@Giving - I got "Dance of Anger" today from library. Great book about changing the anger cycle. I also got DB again - will check "Controlled Fights" THX!

@Virtual, Painful, Stronger - working hard on changing my side of the fights. doing 180's - babystep progress every day.
It's not just stopping the yelling always. I agree with the walk out and talk later strategy, but lately it makes him more enraged, blaming, abusive. It's why I said earlier I try to sit still with all the panic and alarms running through my veins. Yes, ideally I should walk away and say we'll talk anything through when calmer, but his response is to escalate, raise his voice, and deny "I'm not yelling!" "I am calm!" "You're just trying to ......(fill in the blank accusations)" etc. My goal is to de-escalate, so I'm still in a quandry here - will discuss with MC if H returns Monday to our app.

Sometimes, I have to sense it coming before it escalates. That is trickier because it is less obvious, but I have to resist the temptation to explain my position, ask him to speak nicely, ask him to consider my point of view. Although this seems counterproductive to a "healthy" relationship, it actually escalates things somehow and eventually he gets angrier, then I get angry, then he blames me then I blame him for starting it in the first place then we're nowhere.

Tonight I proudly did some 180's with beneficial effects:
- He had earlier said he'd put our son to bed, but when the time came he was on his computer. This usually upsets me because I feel he is ignoring us, not keeping his word, not respecting how tired I am from being with our son all day, etc. When I asked if he still intended to put son to bed, he got upset. My 180 = I
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/22/09 06:23 AM
(oops...continue)
....I walked away, not angrily, just letting it go. When he sarcastically said, "Why don't you help me - oh I guess the answer is no" which in the past would have made me angry and feel he was being even more insensitive, I did a 180 = I said "How can I help you?". He needed help on a map, so remembering he's felt neglected, I helped him. He seemed to like that and so did our four year old who also chimed in to help (and hug) us.

When he left saying he didn't have time to put our son to bed I 180'ed - I said that's fine, go ahead, have a nice night. I honestly wasn't even resentful. I felt I'd rather have him gone than here and angry.

When leaving - and here's where the tiny button was pushed toward escalation that I had to catch - he said "See you Sunday - or maybe tomorrow, I don't know" as he was walking out the door! Even though my internal alarms started going off, (how rude, how unfair, how insensitive) I said, "I need to know the schedule (of visiting our son) farther in advance." He said something blaming - like I was the one who was sick all week and wanted things flexible - so I said well call me when you can to figure out the schedule.

THAT WAS A 180 = I would have usually felt indignant that he was flaking out on the schedule. This is a common trap - he flakes out on telling me when he will come over to be with our son, then I get upset, then he gets rude, then I raise my voice, then we are fighting and it goes nowhere. My 180 = I let it go. I decided if I didn't see him until Sunday, I would not show it bothered me, I would show GAL and I would just bring it up in therapy. I would not get into an argument.

The final part - he did call a half hour later, to my surprise. Even more surprising HE WAS CALM. He has been in full attack mode for months - this was a real change in his response. Instead of complaining, begging, explaining, etc, I 180'ed = told him calmly that "If I had said see you in two days when you had our son you would be livid." He calmly got my point. That's a change. He reassured me he "didn't mean to say see you in two days" and then started explaining his schedule and the things on his mind and that he had to juggle and why he didn't know if he could come over Saturday night (tomorrow) or not. This is new. He has been so angry and defensive, he's just exploded at any mention of what he is doing and why lately. He let me in people. He thawed. It was truly a miracle.

Then back to usual.

I said "ok, what time tomorrow (Saturday) should we talk to discuss the plan for the evening?" He suddenly explodes. "Oh get off it!" and "Why do you have to know every detail?" and other rude comments. This is how he's been for months. But my 180 = i told him to do what he needed to do and that it didn't matter to me. Not in a vindictive way, it really is not worth the anger. It mattered a lot more when he would talk to me like that when my son was four months old and I was exhausted from round the clock feedings and no sleep. But I didn't remind him of past hurts either. That doesn't help.

Sorry for the long posts - but man, I'm proud of how I handled it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/23/09 02:32 AM
Next day - he didn't call all day. Said he was "out of cell phone range". VEry unlike him and quite suspicious. I fear an OW. Instead of talking bout it, I simply asked him again to please tell me a specific plan for tomorrow. He keeps resisting this, I am not reacting, but I am being clear and firm about my desire even though he is blowing me off. I hope this is not engaging him too much, or "pursuing".
Meanwhile, trying to self soothe and not panic about imagining an OW. If he is off having a day to himself, I am trying to hold postitive thoughts that he is taking care of himself. That can only be good. However, I am resentful that he will not give me a time when he will show up or call, but I refuse to argue.
Part of me thinks the best 180 is to not talk to him at all when he disappears, but the other part of me says I need to be clear and firm in my needs. Or like I said, is this not being detached enough? Thoughts?
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/23/09 03:14 PM
good job!
But now you have to get off the schedule...understand you can't rely on him. Let him know and work it out between the two of you when he has S and let it go at that. He will eventually get better at letting you know what the plan will be....IF you let this go for now.

It's one of his controls over you. So take it away.

You can do this and OW is possible but don't fret about it yet. See what happens how his actions may indicate there's an OW. Lots of texts....walking away when his phone rings....etc.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 12:28 AM
Hey
Thinking about you....looking for clarification....what is the arraignment for his time with S? Does he take him the standard one day a week and every other weekend? Now, for your S there needs to be a schedule that he adheres to....you S should be as important now than he ever was. This is a tough time for him to and everyone needs to think about what's best for him.

If you and H schedule something, like family night....and he doesn't come through, you go anyways. And you make it clear that YOU invited HIM and even if he didn't show up, you are still going to go and enjoy yourself, with or without him. Let him know, he is NOT the end all be all and YOU do have a life outside of him that you will and can live.

Know what I'm saying?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 12:31 AM
Yeah, I hate the controls. He feels he really needs them now. He did eventually call to say when he was coming over but you're right, I do not need to let him have that power. I can just make my own plans and not assume I can count on him for anything.

He is constantly on the text/email/phone contraption - usually as a way to tune us out. I have no idea if it's work related or OW. I am choosing not to worry about it until I know something for sure. HOwever it drives me crazy when he's constantly on that thing instead of being present. Again, trying not to let this have any power over me, I expect no less.

He's still holding out power over our therapy sessions (MC). Our last ( and third session) he said he saw "no convincing evidence that anything will change so why should he waste his time." I bought the bait and got depressed for half a day. That was a week ago. Today he says he "wants to talk to me about the big picture" of going back to therapy. Basically, I'm going to get a litany of how things will be all his way or not. I feel like anyway is better than not so although I feel like a sucker, I'm going to let him have his control. Again, facing I can't rely on him, so he may never come back, he may walk away from the marriage, I can't control it. Cross your fingers for me.
Posted By: Eskimo Nell Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 12:33 AM
Hi Stronger
Sorry to hijack you like this but as a newbie, I didn't know how to get a message directly to you.

I noticed in one of your other posts that you asked someone to meet up with you on Facebook so that you could discuss some theories in blowing out the OW - I would love to learn about that myself. Please could you look me up and give me your best advice?

Thank you.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 12:39 AM
Hey stronger
We posted at the same time! The above is in response to your first post and I'll respond to the second one after dinner. THanks!
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 01:26 AM
Hope
Remember this....for now 100% of this is on you. NEVER feel like a sucker. For now, you have all of this weight to carry. You are doing this because you are a woman of great morals, deep love and integrity. You are making the choice to eat a lot of crap....but in the end, if you and your H create a new marriage, because the old one is dead, then there will come a day when he looks at you and says "Thank you...thank you for not quitting when I did."

That will be a huge day. And I think you are a big enough woman to get your whole family there.

Patience and strength like you never knew you had will get you there. Hold on tight and believe. You do have control over you. Maybe not him and probably never him, but you now and forever.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 01:46 AM
Well there are no custody arrangements. He left and we've been taking it one week at a time. Sometimes, I wanted to go out at night, sometimes he did, so we were flexible with each other. He felt I "controlled" the schedule for many months because I am an actress and I am given an evening schedule of rehearsals and shows two months in advance. I still don't know why this bothered him so much, because even when I got a babysitter to free him up to go out whenever he wanted, he still was angry.
So I'm letting him have control now, hoping that will stop some of his excuses for being angry at me. He can't say I have any control any more.

so tonight over dinner he has a habit of being too firm with our son who is four. If S fools around at all, he puts S in bed for the rest of the night. He doesn't want me "interfering with his parenting method" but I just think it's too stressful and hurtful for S. H feels undermined by me and when I said S had "one more chance to behave at table" b/c I feel the important thing is that he EAT not be PUNISHED, H gets furious at me, starts yelling and being rude, goes to a corner, pouts, and refuses to talk to any of us. It's painful but for once (180) he is not getting a rise out of me. H is Punishing me. I won't take it. I'm going out for a walk for a couple hours.
BUt ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 02:31 AM
Well, is that a ridiculous punishment? Can you see his side? If no, it's not ridiculous and yes you can see his side, let him do it. If you think it's crazy and no you can't see his side, then come to a different JOINT decision as a punishment.
Posted By: davidswife Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 02:41 AM
Have you ever tried putting your son in "time out" when a poor choice is made?

A carpet square, or little chair that is isolated, and he sits there for one minute for every year old he is - so four minutes. When the time is up, he needs to apologize for his poor behavior, you give him a kiss, it's over.

I teach pre-school and have raised four children. Just a suggestion.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 04:32 AM
ARe you kidding? I am an at home mom - I do time outs all the time. They usually work. I'm talking about putting him in his room for the entire night, lights off, the end. I think that is excessive. A time out works when he is given the chance to get up and behave better. If he continues to act out, that is a different story. But not for the first acting out.
My husband just has to be in control. I think it hurts my child.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 08:14 AM
Anyway, huge discussion tonight. He has gotten all this legal advice and that is keeping him from going to MC. He claims we need to be legally separated first otherwise MC looks like we are still married. He is afraid that the longer it takes to be separated, the more alimony he will have to pay, because the longer we have been technically married. So the catch twenty two he's offering is - get legally separated, then maybe H 'll go to MC. Otherwise, just living separately doesn't count as legally separated and going to MC looks like reconsiliation.
I"m so mad all he is thinking about is money. He's afraid he'll leave a divorce with nothing and I'll have the house and our S so he wants reassurance that this won't happen before he takes any risk to continue in MC. It's crazy. Help!
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 12:37 PM
Do you have any reason to believe there is an OW?
Because this “legal advice” sounds sketchy as hell to me. Him going into work on the computer and coming out angry…..yelling at you about a CD player still being on…..refusal to go to counseling until legally separated…..very very strange, unless he has to prove it to someone else…….I could be wrong, but the behavior sounds familiar and my H did have an EA going on…..

My humble advice and do what you want with it, won’t offend me000…. Don’t give him the separation. I did nothing to make this easier on my H. I did what I needed to do to make it easier on me and our S. I was fortunate that my H also did right by our S….only once did he ever try to weasel out of his responsibilities to S, and I slammed his ass….never happened again. Truth be told, I think he felt guilty about it anyways, so that took care of itself.

In a nutshell, I say let him back out of counseling for now. But don’t help him get closer to ending the marriage.

I think you said you’ve been married 8 years, right? What is the threshold in your state for alimony? In my state it’s 7 years and of course, child support, you can figure that out with many different calculators you can find on line.

Did he get a lawyer? Or is this “legal advice” from a friend or a lawyer he knows? I think it sounds weird and off base.

And maybe I misunderstood….did he say he would DEFINITELY keep going to counseling if you agreed to a legal separation? If so maybe consider it then, if you trust him to keep going AND you think MC is helping.

What are your rights if you get the separation? Does he owe you alimony then or child support? Is he being supportive of S right now financially and emotionally? How do he and S get along normally, outside of the “go to your room and sleep” interaction?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 04:52 PM
He says him main motivation is not ending up poor and in a little apartment supporting me in this big house. He is not saying he would definitely do anything if I sign anything. He says "Then maybe we'll see". I refuse to get a legal separation. I we've been married six years and I have no idea about the alimony calculations. I told him I wasn't ready to talk money because I wasn't giving up on our marriage.

He is great with our son - in fact he says he wants joint custody and part of the problem is that he's taking out son at our house and can't prove that he is taking half time responsibility. I told him I am not comfortable with my son sleeping somewhere else half the time for now since he is only 4. His lawyer said he needs a bigger place with another room for S to show that he is providing for him half time.
I don't know - it's a catch twenty two. It's like he claims maybe he'll work on the marriage if everything is lined up in his favor in case of divorce. He "doesn't think anything will change" so he has little hope of therapy helping reconciliation. In that case, he wants everything lined up in his favor.
I don't like it. I don't want any of these things. I think if he gives us a chance over time my DB changes will take hold. I'm so furious that he is doing this.
I called his bluff and said just get a D then. Serve me with papers. He won't. So that says something. I don't know why I hang on any nmore. I'm starting to think i should give up.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 04:58 PM
Like I said -- although he has been unusually harsh with S occasionally, this is out of character. He is great with S. He is there for him and involved and loving. THe problem is that since the separation, he isn't around quite as much. He's been going out more "with friends" and I mostly believe him but part of me thinks there could be an OW. He told me he "got together with someone" but knowing him there wasn't much to it. He's terribly shy with girls - typically tech geek.

He claims he got legal advice from a good Family Lawyer who knows our local laws. The alimony is calculated by how long we are married. If we get legally separated, then the marriage officially "stops" and the alimony calculations stop from that point, being lower.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/24/09 07:02 PM
What state are you in?
That sounds like serious BS to me.

You do what you are comfortable with. You want to fight this then fight it. Don’t agree to anything that gets you closer to D.

And be careful. My gut says there’s an OW. Probably not serious, probably more serious in his own head, but really, that’s all it takes.

What are you doing to GAL?
What days do you want him to take S?
One thing that worked for me….when H left, I didn’t give him a specific schedule with S. Then after this went on for a bit, I did. He has H two nights a week and every other weekend. H can’t take S overnight because he has to be at work very early and S is too young. So H stays at our place on his two nights and he stays at our place on his weekends too…not because I told him to, because that’s what we worked out. I refused to raise S alone. I told H “You can walk away from me, but not S.” I was fortunate. He agreed pretty easily because H is a great father. At first I told him on your nights you can take him to your place or you can stay here in the guest room. I think it would be more settling for S to be here, but I leave that completely up to you. Take some time to think about what’s best for you and your schedule and what days you want. H agreed to be at our place on his nights with S. And the other great thing about it was DB Coach and therapist both encouraged me to spend more time with H since I had some pretty big changes to make in me and I needed him to see them. Also, in hindsight, I needed to see them to and no one can push my buttons like H, the good ones and the bad ones! At first H would take S out to play and then put him to bed and leave around 9 or 9:30. I think that got old and things with he and OW took a horrible turn so one day I noticed he had an overnight bag. I said nothing. He stayed in the guest room that night and that’s when he started staying over. This was in early February, right before Valentine’s Day. Then before March he was back in bed with me.

Not sure if that would work for you, but it did for me. Take it with a grain of salt.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/25/09 02:25 AM
My husband is very good about being there for my S. I am adamant about my H seeing S at our house, as he is only four and I don't want him sleeping in another house. He has barely done a couple sleepovers WITH MOM and survived in the last year - I believe he is far too young to have his home base split up.
I agree with you also that although it is tempting to feel like, "Hey, if H wants a divorece, why should I be around?" and this could be a sort of 180. However, I like the point of making sure I am there to show my changes. It seems to have worked for you and I think there is a chance it could work for me.
Today I came to a weird inner peace. I decided it's ok if he divorces me. I'm still doing my DB, my changes, my 180s, my GAL. I ultimately want to rescue the marriage. But emotionally I have let it go for today. I have felt like I can't control if he leaves and in so many ways my life will be better without all this fighting. I am determined to make whatever contact we have positive and new, and if choses to not come back, I'll still have a positive new life. It's nothing I haven't read or heard a thouseand times, but today I am experiencing the peace of it.
STrangely, he is coming around now that I'm doing a 180 in terms of separation agreements. He has noticed how calm I am, how I am willing to hear his side and not fight. He is impressed. I figure if I can keep this up for some months or even a year, we may have a reconisiliation on our hands. I'm going to take his separation agreement to my lawyer, but I'm trying to reassure him that I do not plan to screw him out of money or time with his son and this is actually gaining trust. It's weird, the acceptance of letting him go and feeling like - ok, go ahead and divorce me - is actually helping him feel trusting and like - if we can work this out cordially, maybe we can work on the bigger issues. He even said that yes, if we can agree to a legal separation agreement, he will commit to couple's counselling for a certain time.
My therapist says to see him as a feral cat. He is terrified. He is scared to trust. If I make any sudden movements toward him or grasp at him, he will run away traumatized. If I can be still and sit firm and calm and quiet, while holding out some food ( a good metaphor for a better relationship) than he may little by little approach me. It fits with all the DB ideas of not pushing, begging, chasing, etc. It also helps me not feel rejected if he can't go farther in our marriage by saying, ok, that's his choice, I did everything I could.
God help me I am as clear tomorrow. But today I'm ok being alone. Crying a lot, scared for my S, but not desperate. Sitting calm and quiet and still, even through all his attacks. Perhaps all this legal stuff is bluster to see if I'll fight and attack back. I am not.
Also, he is working from a fear that he will end up the way his father did in his divorce, and this is something I am feeling not responsible for, for once. His parents went through a hideously long divorce where his mother fought tooth and nail to get every last penny. H feels his dad got the short end of the stick, by not standing up for himself. So H is overreacting, aggressively putting all his ducks in a row in case of the big D. He is doing this to emotionally protect himself from feeling like a wimp like his dad. If he needs to carry a big stick, I can't talk him out of it. I'll see what the lawyers say. In the mean time I keep repeating that I am not out to hurt or screw him in any way. That I want everyone happy no matter what the outcome. This seems to be buying me time at least, if not earning brownie points in the trust bank in terms of coming back to MC.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/25/09 02:29 AM
PS we live in California.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/25/09 04:37 AM
PSS GALing has not been an issue - I actually have needed to be home more. Until my son was 3, I gave it all up for my family. The last year I did a lot of theater which was for me. Now that H is gone, I need to spend more time with S. But H has always been a responsible dad. I'm lucky that way.I'm trying to be more available for H and S. Galing is going to have be something different now that I have given up theatre. I have started CODA support groups and I guess I'll take myself to movies or walks or something.
Tonight when H showed up, I packed up my computer and said I was going out and he actually got weirded out. I thought he would not even care since he's the one constantly pulling away, threatening divorce. But he said,"is this something I should be worried about?" I can't fathom how taking my computer to Starbucks would be something for him to worry about, but it seemed like a positive sign that he wasn't just running as fast as he could from me. He noticed my GAL! Really what I did was go to the library to research California Divorce law!
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/25/09 01:17 PM
The weird inner peace…it comes and goes. It’s wonderful, then it’s chaos. Par for the course. When you do have the weird inner peace days, try to capitalize on it and do fun stuff for you.
So you are going to give him the separation?
http://divorcesupport.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=divorcesupport&cdn=people&tm=3&gps=284_245_1259_758&f=20&tt=2&bt=0&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.alllaw.com/calculators/childsupport/california/
That link can help you figure out what child support would be. I know when my H checked it out, it scared him.
Something that helped me a lot mentally and emotionally, and I can’t really explain why, but knowing this marriage was dead helped. I want to create a new relationship and marriage with my H. One night he said it “This marriage is dead.” I agreed with him, “Dead as a doornail.” He just looked at me sort of shocked like. I followed up with “I still hope to create a new relationship with you…in what capacity that will be, I have no idea.” But I think it was good for both of us to understand the old relationship….neither of us wants to go back there, but hopefully we can come up with something new and wonderful where everyone is getting what they need.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/25/09 04:53 PM
I'm not agreeing to anything yet. I told him to write up what he wants and I'll hand it to my lawyer.
I felt the peace that it was dead. THat's exactly it. What happens next who knows.
I guess I'm panicking today. I'm scared if I give him anything he wants legally, I"m screwing myself later. If It don't, he wont work in therapy and I'm getting divorced anyhow. I'm really afraid today not knowing what to do. Where was that peace again? lol
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/25/09 05:20 PM
My understanding of legal separation is that it's just one step closer to divorce. That's why I would not opt to do it. But you are in your shoes and this is a choice for you and S.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/25/09 06:20 PM
THat's exactly how I feel. However, in California, he can divorce me without my permission. In a legal separation, I have to agree to it. Perhaps I can put things in there to protect me as well, such as making sure I have health insurance, access to our bank account and credit cards, etc. These things he is threatening to separate and take from me unless I agree to a legal separation.
I'm really scared tday. I don't want to give him these things too. But I'm afraid the consequences will b e worse if I don't. He will agree to therapy if I give him the separation, guaranteed. I don't know. Thank you so much for your great input - I really value it, Stronger and you have been like a lifeline to me! No decisions made yet -
(((((H4L)))))

I think a legal separation would be a way for you to protect yourself, and considering the way the threatens, I think it may well be a good idea. I would also say that if there is a reconcilliation in the cards, a legal separation, in your case, is probably not going to be an impediment.

I would talk to a lawyer, and mention his threats (which I think he cannot follow through on, but the cost to prevent it may be high). Act from a position of knowledge.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/26/09 03:17 AM
Thanks everybody. I have been going back and forth between "should I, shouldn't I?" all day...I can see both perspectives! I spoke with my lawyer today to relieve my mind and he said try not to worry until he can look at the document H's lawyer writes up. Then he will let me know what if anything I have to lose or gain financially.
Once this is settled, hopefully H won't feel so vulnerable and scared and might be willing to sit and talk to me. If not, I'm headed toward D anyhow. Ugh.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/26/09 04:55 AM
Another positive step - compared to two weeks ago when he couldn't be around me without venting anger and criticisms my way constantly!
He and I talked about taking S on a day trip together. I wanted to take S to an aquarium that is four hours drive away, and H, a pilot, offered a while back to fly S there. I asked how comfortable he would feel with me going - as I orginally was excited to take S there.
He had said he needed to think about it because for legal reasons, he did not want to appear like we weren't "separated" meaning not taking trips together, not going to therapy, etc. (This is part of the reason he wants a legal separation, so that he doesn't have to "prove" separation by ambiguous actions like spending time with the family.
He said that as long as "we agree that this is officially a trip for our son, not our marriage" (as far as the court is concerned) then it's fine if we all go together.
Considering one of his big complaints about me is that we have had more family trips with blow-out fights than calm ones, I see this as progress. I see this as him trusting me - to get along (prove my changes) and to hold up my verbal agreement as far as our legal situation.
Although he is not admitting this has anything to do with spending time with me, I know from his past actions that if he didn't want to spend time with me, he simply wouldn't. He would tell me to go by myself or that he wants to take S alone. When we have been in worse places, he has definitely done this.
I also see it as a test of him. I will keep consistent with my 180's - no R talks, no begging or convincing, an aloofness (no "I love yous" - and with my goal of staying calm no matter what he throws at me.
If he throws a bunch of criticisms and anger at me, this will be difficult. I will see he is not ready to change his side. But I am determined to use this daytrip to demonstrate my changes. Thursday is the day. Wish me luck. And I will try to keep my hopes from getting too high as well.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/26/09 08:26 PM
Doing better internally today. Feeling like loving myself and if he doesn't want to join me in marriage repair, if he doesn't have love for me, I can't make him and I'm not interested in trying to convince him to remember the love we once had. Still holding out hope of reconsiliation, but only if he comes to me. This is quite a 180 folks, praying I can keep it up!
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/26/09 08:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
My understanding of legal separation is that it's just one step closer to divorce. That's why I would not opt to do it. But you are in your shoes and this is a choice for you and S.

My W and I had an attorney draw up a legal document outlining a few things, most importantly finances. It's not legal separation but it offered her some level of protection and comfort.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/26/09 09:46 PM
Thank you RSF, that is what I asked for actually. I told him I did not want a legal separation but I was happy to negotiate a financial agreement that makes us both feel more secure. I'm trying to look at this as something positive that will also benefit me. I appreciate knowing another couple did this as well.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/27/09 06:26 AM
He was here tonight and stayed calm. He didn't stay overnight but he usually just sleeps on the couch anyhow. I was very impressed that the progress included some tricky topics where he was very calm and not criticizing me.
We had to talk money, and about health issues and we stayed calm. We have a big family outing planned for tomorrow. I'm determined to stay calm and not be clingy.
I am feeling panic again inside that this is going so slowly. Now that he and I are calm, I'm wishing there was more reassurance - a touch, a hug, a sleepover, etc. Keeping this in check and being positive with my actions. Not pressuring.
Still scary what with all the recent threats of paper signing and "moving to a bigger place" where he can have our son for sleepovers. Trying to keep my hope alive and the big picture in mind of a reconsiliation someday. Trying to see the babysteps over just a couple weeks. Cautiously optimistic. Wish me well.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/27/09 02:02 PM
I think you are doing great.
Just stay calm.
If he has a tantrum, treat him like you would your son. Very calmly and tactfully.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/28/09 05:03 AM
Cautiously optimisitic. Family day went well. How do I not get my hopes up? A couple weeks ago he couldn't even talk to me without yelling and criticizing. Today we spent a family day at the aquarium and it was very peaceful. I kept "as if"ing like crazy.

At the end of the night over dinner, I felt myself begin to react when he started R talks. I started getting defensive, that would have been a fight in the past. I told him instead that I was getting emotional and that I would prefer not to have the talk over dinner. I guess that was a 180.

How do I sit with the good days and not fear that tomorrow will be more "I'm moving on, nothing will change, I won't take the risk?" I fear he won't notice the progress! How do I GAL when things are going so well? I want more! I want him to run to my arms and say things are changing and he's hopeful. That of course won't happen for a long time, if ever. I'm afraid the changes will be too little too late and my hopes will be dashed after lovely days like today. I want to take him in my arms and make up and it hurts almost more when things feel nice and then he takes off to his place and still won't touch me or talk about the future.

Advice on hanging in there?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/28/09 05:19 AM
Stronger - thank you so much for the confidence. I really needed to hear it. He did have a couple tantrums - and I tried my darndest to stay calm and he later explained he was under stress and why - AND EVEN APOLOGIZED. It's a far cry from making mad passionate love to me under the stars, but it's a baby step in the right direction!~
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Family day went well.


Good for you smile

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
How do I not get my hopes up?


Just go day by day, minute by minute.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I told him instead that I was getting emotional and that I would prefer not to have the talk over dinner.


This is freaking awesome! I have only learned to do this recently and I have been at this A LOT longer than you. GOOD FOR YOU!


Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
How do I sit with the good days and not fear that tomorrow will be more "I'm moving on, nothing will change, I won't take the risk?"


Keep reading about loving detachment. It takes forever to get this.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I want him to run to my arms and say things are changing and he's hopeful. That of course won't happen for a long time


Keep this as your goal. Don't forget it. Use this as motivation to stay patient. Be sure not to "temperature take." Breathe.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I'm afraid the changes will be too little too late and my hopes will be dashed after lovely days like today. I want to take him in my arms and make up


I can feel your pain. Boy...I can relate. You're going to have to expect more ups and downs. You've made it through these, you'll be able to make it through more. You can do it!

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Advice on hanging in there?


You're already doing it. Be sure to watch the backsliding. Fight it! Be patient. Keep with the 180's. Be patient. Use the GAL as a tool. Temperature taking and backsliding is what has drug my sitch on for such a long time. You have all of the tools you need.
Posted By: Coach Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/28/09 02:09 PM
Quote:
Advice on hanging in there?


Make your mind up that you are going to thrive thru this and come out on the otherside a better woman regardless of the outcome. What you are doing is honorable, brave and takes a lot of strength. You have to take care of yourself - physically, mentally, spiritually and emotionally. "Love your neighbor as yourself." You can handle it.

Cheers
Coach
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/29/09 02:29 AM
Thank you so much Coach and EB. Your support is helping me get through all this and avoid total despair!
I haven't been on the DB site for long, it's true, but I've been working on keeping myself calm now since the bomb - last March. My therapist is really good at keeping me focused on this ,and it is my number one goal in the R.

Tonight he got pretty angry about the house - he has always had an irrational (IMO) anger problem about "the carpet". He constantly nitpicks it, yet it was HIS idea to have wall to wall (I told him years ago hardwood would be easier to clean with a small child). He continues to erupt about it and I stayed relatively calm. I actually was a bit more firm than I've been - saying "Stop it!" instead of nothing. I took a risk standing up for myself yet I was anxious that it would instead escalate things and we'd backslide. He actually did try to calm back down.

We had another issue around my son's eating behavior at dinner (see earlier post) and again, instead of him yelling and me just saying nothing to avoid the fight (180) he actually talked to me about his feelings and theory around what is expected of S at dinner and I listened and responded - calmly. That is progress! Talking! Listening! STaying calm! Standing up for myself!

Of course, now I am riddled with anxiety that this will push him away, escalate the tension, etc.

But evidence (actions, not words) is showing otherwise - for the second night in a row he offered to sleep here - still in separate rooms. He's been going off to his apartment any chance he can in the past, but we've spent two full days and nights together in this house and I'm scared to say it's starting to feel normalish. He went out tonight and usually when he does that he stays at his apt. - but he said he'd come back here and get up with S so I can sleep in. He usually stays away on weekends unless I ask for a particular time for him to take S. This weekend I don't know. He hasn't said one way or the other what he is doing == I'm holding out hope that will play in my favor and he might stick around for more family time like he has the past couple days.

Again, I'm scarecd though, I could be in for a big disappointment if he gets up tomorrow morning and says, "See you Sunday night" like he did last weekend. I'll take it a day at a time, EB, and if he hangs around like he has the last couple nights, I'll see this as vast improvement.

and Coach - loving myself. Trying to remember throughout the day that this is about loving me. Something I have yet to do my entire life, so you are right, this is about taking care of myself no matter what the outcome. That is a true 180 =- not to prove anything to him, but from the inside out, for myself.

Now - I'm pretty scared that things are going so well because it's so new - dare I say this is the best week since the bomb in March? I should be thrilled, but why am I terrified? I guess there's more to lose? More hopes that can be broken? More fear that the closer we get, the more we might slip back into old patterns of fighting.

I'm making 180's but is he? Is he ready to have a calm and attentive loving relationship instead of a resentful, antagonistic, distant one? How do I get through this panic attack?
breathe. take a walk. love on your son.

...watch SNL smile
I get what you mean aout being scarier with things going a little better.

There will be ups. There will be downs. I've found it best to try not to go to either extreme.
Easier said than done though huh?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/29/09 03:22 AM
I do love my son. He is so amazing.
SNL is a brilliant idea. I need to laugh. Thanks!

Ugh the ups and downs - do they ever end?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/29/09 03:37 AM
Also - where can I read more about "Loving Detachment?"
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/29/09 10:16 PM
Hey here to say one day at a time seems to be working although I am terrified to hope that things are going well.

Last weekend, I was so upset due to "See you in two days" from H. This weekend, as a contrast, he slept over (separate rooms) the last two nights, spent family time, and today woke up and said he needs to do some work and go to the gymn, and will be home for dinner. Spent all morning with S so I could sleep in. When I didn't pressure him to talk about "plans" for the weekend he seems to just be hanging out day by day.

Dare I say this feels normal? Like before separation? I'm scared to trust it. I'm feeling the fear - he must be too. But his actions are demonstrating coming closer.
Posted By: hhh Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/29/09 10:32 PM
google "loving detachment' from livestrong. I printed it out and now read it every day. Good luck to you! My H and I have been separated for 8 months now, living apart...so it seems like it's over. It's an inspiration to see others' where things seem to be getting better over time. Don't want to get false hope but I am happy for you. Stay strong!
Great!

Be sure to let thing go slowly though.

Don't get too many expectations. Just go with it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/29/09 10:45 PM
hhh - my H and I are also separated and living apart - he's been threatening legal separation and probably divorce before this better spell - so I feel your pain re: it feels like it's over. We've lived apart for 4 months. This is why I am so scared to believe it could be going so well, that he is spending so much time with the family. Even a couple weeks ago, we were doing nothing more than passing off our S.

EB - You're right. slow and steady. Things could go back down any minute and I know it. Thank you for your constant reminders - I need them!
Posted By: hhh Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/29/09 11:08 PM
H4L,

You're so strong and I admire you. I identify w your posts a lot too. Yes, slow and steady seems to be the name of the game. I've also been working on GAL and not reverting to old patterns whenever we talk. We don't have a child so it's less motivation for him to want to communicate/work on anything. If you have a chance to look through my thread 'just want my H back' I would value your input.

It sounded awhile back, in your sit, that your H would choose D if he had to decide that day...yet you were in therapy. How did you get him to go to therapy if he wanted D? So often it seems like a child is the motivating factor to try counseling. I am trying to glean anyy advice I can.

I like your attitude...you are a strong woman!
hugs,
hhh
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/30/09 01:27 AM
Hey hhh,
I will def. check out your thread. I want to respond to this post first.

First of all, H has since quit therapy - after only three sessions. He did it to placate me, and blame me and the therapist. He showed up, said, "Convince me why things will be different this time" and when the therapist said change can only happen with your willingness, he refused to go back. So I am DBing instead. I'm working on me, not him.

Then, he said he wanted a legal separation agreement to protect him financially if/when we will get divorced, and said he does not want to go to therapy until this happens. He wants the terms he wants NOW because he fears the longer this goes on, the more he;ll get screwed on alimony. I figure he also thinks I'll be fairer to him if I hope there's a reconsiliation possibility, but if he waits to debate settlement terms once a D is in progress, I may fight harder. I have decided to have his lawyer draw something up, I'll send it to my lawyer and then discuss how this will help or hurt me.

After I seemed agreeable to the legal stuff, he started being more responsive, spending more time with us and all. I originally thought it was because I let go and didn't fight him on money or on leaving that he may have had a second thought about it all.

Today I'm more scared. I got possessed by the fear today that perhaps he is just being nice to me and spending time with S to get me to agree with his legal terms, not because he is reconsidering.

I dont' know where H is coming from. I don't know what to expect. This is why I have to go slow and steady, because I am afraid of getting screwed too. I don't want to come from a place of fear, I'm trying to come from love lately. But he definitely tries to make it difficult sometimes!

Like today: H said he'd be out at work and the gymn for a few hours then home tonight. He hasn't called - it's been six hours. I'm getting despondent again. I don't know what to do. If I call him, I'm "chasing" and not "GALing". But he is going back on his word and this scares me. I don't want him to think he can just breeze in and out of here whenever he feels like it AND get what he wants in a settlement b/c he gave one week of good behavior!

Now to check your post....
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/30/09 05:13 AM
I knew it couldn't last forever. My husband came in tonight and blasted me with rage about some small thing. This has been a big problem for us in our marriage. Worse since he left, but has been better the last couple weeks. Literally, a small chord plugged into my computer knocked over a couple of things on his desk, none broken, and he went ballistic, in front of S.
At first I got defensive and raised my voice, and we started down our old pattern. He started blaming me and saying how "I failed" and "This is why he doesn't like to come home because he doesn't like to see how I mess things up>" It was really hurtful.

After a couple minutes of arguing, I did my 180 - I left the house for 15 minutes to calm down. I told him I would be back in 15 minutes and I was. He was still beligerent after putting S to bed, but I calmly defended myself and said divorced or not, we're going to have to deal with these things respectfully. If I make mistakes I don't want to feel persecuted. I made him see how he jumps to conclusions about how I am somehow a flake who doesn't pay attention to things. I stood my ground.

And miracle of miracles, he eventually calmed down, admitted he hadn't been respectful, and we worked out a solution with the chord and desk so it won't happen again.

It was not perfect, but it went pretty darn well. In the past, this could have escalated into a fight that lasted all night!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/30/09 08:19 AM
Well I wasn't calm at first, but I took steps to calm myself down. I guess that is a silver medal instead of a gold, but still a win.

The thing is after he left tonight, I just felt so awful inside. I wonder why sometimes I am hanging on to a man who yells and criticises me so much. It hurts enormously.

I guess I figure he's not perfect either and I married him so I'm going to try my best as long as I can. It's so hard to stay calm in the face of constant criticism and anger however. It just doesn't feel like love and I lose hope sometimes.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/30/09 05:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Hey robx - I like your attitude - I could use some of that. How about for a W dealing with a WAH who is very angry and critical any time he comes home? He lives in his apt. but first thing out of his mouth when he comes to take S or visit is yelling about something I f***ed up in his mind. Does a H respond to a strong woman too? Usually if I stand up to him saying come find me when you are calm, etc, he gets even more furious. It seems to backfire.

General advice? Or check out my thread to see my sitch? Thx! "I'm new and wondering if this works" is the name of my thread.


Hope,

You posted this to RobX's attention over on my new thread. Hope you don't mind if I offer my two cents. I haven't read your entire thread, but regardless of that you H shouldn't be treating you to the kind of verbal abuse you describe. It sounds like he has anger management issues in addition to not having respect for you.

One of the common issues the Left Behind Husbands (LBHs) have is not understanding the impact their words and actions are having on their wife (W) until it is too late. It boils down to communication issues between the two. In the case of you and your H, you are going to have to have a very frank discussion with him about what he is doing, how it makes you feel and what the consequences are going to be for him if it continues (i.e. divorce, separation, etc). You need to be firm and very specific when you communicate this to him. He needs to know that there is going to come a time when you are no longer going to wonder why you are staying with him and putting up with his crap- you are just going to leave. Is that what he really wants?

Have that crucial conversation with him. If you are concerned that he may react negatively, consider having it with him in the presence of a third party- one of your parents, a close sibling or friend.

Good luck and hang in there.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/30/09 09:45 PM
Thanks, BJ. Yes, his anger has been an issue long before the bomb. We have gone to MC before the bomb to deal with it with minimal and only temporary success. He is the WAS now so I fear standing up to him because he is already so far out the door and I'm trying to save the Marriage. I know that means I put myself in doormat position. I don't want a D so saying I'll leave him if it doesn't change is not something I can do now. I have had various levels of temporary success by standing up to him in different ways, but the anger always returns.

How do I stand up to a WAS who I don't want to threaten with D (since that is what he is doing to me), but still draw a line? How can I get him to shape up? Is threatening D the only way?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/31/09 03:25 AM
BJ, I thought a lot about what you said and I need to thank you. It really helped my interaction with H.

He spent dinner with me and S tonight. I prepared a big family dinner of lots of food, thinking there would be something for everyone that way. My husband started raising his voice and criticizing me about how I gave him "too much food" and "what a waste that is" and he's "told me so many times to ask him before I make a meal"...I was p.o.ed considering I cooked things I knew he liked and for the eight years we've been together his motto has been "I'll eat anything in front of me as long as it doesn't get away from me first". So his pickiness was a shock to me.

I stood up to him! I told him he could thank me instead for cooking such a nice meal and see things from my point of view - that I provided more food so that he would have choices as to what he wanted. I told him exactly what I tell S - that he gets what I cook and he can eat what he wants or politely say "no thank you".

He tried to convince me how right he was and I wouldn't have it. I asked him how he would prefer I handle dinner, since as long as I have known him he has been happy to eat what I put in front of him. I told him if he wants me to handle it differently, he can tell me how he would like it. (Then he can't criticize me if it's his way.)

Anyway, somehow by the grace of god I stopped him at the pass. I still don't know if I can do it again!
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/31/09 03:33 AM
Well done Hope!

Quote:
Anyway, somehow by the grace of god I stopped him at the pass. I still don't know if I can do it again!


You CAN, and you WILL.

I firmly believe there is nothing more important to an individual than self respect.

Great job!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/31/09 03:44 AM
Thank you GIMA. H stayed for dinner and put S to bed. then he said he was going to the gymn and coming back. Almost feels back to normal. Can't believe he keeps coming back after all the recent threats of D.

I couldn't do this without all of you. THank you again!
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Also - where can I read more about "Loving Detachment?"


I've been reading more about it on this board. It's been hard for me to separate withdrawl, giving up, detaching etc.

Coach and GIMA are better at this than I am, but I think it's the concept of letting go of the outcome, but not really letting go of the person. (ahh yes grasshopper...:)

Not pursuing, but not going all cold and withdrawn.

I think that's the just of it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 08/31/09 04:32 PM
Wow. That makes sense EB. Basically what I'm trying to do, day by day. It's tricky. It's like I'll be happy with or without H, but I'll keep my DB efforts on track because my goal is reconsiliation. Somedays I need to pull back from him, some I need to take steps closer. Somedays I need to face life without him, somedays I need to imagine being together again. Somedays I need a lot of distance, somedays I need to work on intimacy.

The biggest part of Loving Detachment for me is separating my emotions from his negative ones. When he goes into anger, criticism, negativity, threats, I need to detach big time! Keep myself calm. Keep my hopes alive. Not take the blame for his negativity and doubt, even when he is blaming me. Not going up and down with his emotions. Letting his emotions be his and my emotions be mine. That is a hard lesson that is very valuable. As you know he can be unreasonably critical and angry of me and occasionally S so that is when detachment is the hardest and most crucial. To say, "That is your opinion, but I know I am ok."

How do you guys/gals work on loving detachment in your R's?

I'll check out Coach and GIMA's posts too.....
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/01/09 01:29 AM
Hey Hope
You are making progress.
You asked something about how do you get H to straighten up....I'm under the impression that you "straighten up" H when you do first.
I'm not saying you need to "straighten up"....but you need to make changes in you that you want to see in him. If you want him to be kind, be kind. If you want him to yell and scream, yell and scream first. If you want him to be respectful to you, you first to him.
What sucks is this: you can get him to yell and scream soooo much faster and easier than you can get him to be kind and respectful. But with some persistence on your part, you can do it.
I do think though that it's difficult though when someone is yelling at you about something so small and "who cares?" that you just don't even know where they could be coming from. I hope it helps you to know, that your H is having a nutty with a lot fog around him.

The other great thing about being what you want other people to be is that I think we generally want to be kind and respectful, so making those changes in you first then maybe prompting your H to make the same changes is win win. You know?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/01/09 02:42 AM
You are totally right, Stronger. You articulated very well what I am doing. I'm being respectful because that's what I want. I am being calm because that is what I want.
The problem is that even when I am respectful first, he is still often hostile, yelling, critical. I am still devoted to being only in control of myself, not him (as you have said before) so I am focusing on staying calm and kind no matter what he does. I'm no saint, but when I felt myself losing it the other night, I took my walk and calmed down.

I guess what I am saying is that for the long run, over time, I am treating him the way I want to be treated, and over time I hope H catches on. This is my work right now, my focus, instead of changing him. He hasn't totally followed my lead yet but I do see progress. I also am developing the inner stregth to say no matter what our problems have been, if he can't join me on being kinder and calmer also, I won't take him back.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/01/09 03:26 AM
Hope,

You are welcome! From what you describe, you handled last night very well and you can do it again. In fact, it seems to me that you have just created your first boundary with your H in how he reacts at dinner time. Now how hard was that?

I have to say, you really sound like a sweet woman with a tender heart. I am sure that I speak for other men on here who read you post when I say it makes me sad to hear how your H treats you. The majority of the men on this forum don't even come close to how you describe your H's behavior. Most of us are just good men who got caught in a rut and unintentionally neglected some or most of our W's needs until it was too late. If there was only some way to travel back in time and do things differently!

If you ever get to the point where your H might benefit from hearing how other men perceive how he is treating you, just let us know. Sometimes getting that kind of feedback from another man (or men) is the only way to get through to some guys.

Take care.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/01/09 04:20 AM
BJ

Thank you! That is an amazing thing to hear. Gives me hope.

It's hard enough having the usual neglecting of each others needs in our marriage without the criticism and anger. It's almost too much sometimes. But I do see hope that he may be able to change - he seems to be responding to me putting my foot down. How hard was that? VEry hard, for me -= but with practice, hopefully it will get easier.

Well no way would H ever in a million years hear anything from other men - his ego is so fragile, he just couldn't handle it.

However, I always welcome hearing a male perspective that is not angry and critical - since frankly it's new to me. I appreciate any male on this board's perspective on how he might handle things differently. Then I can begin to see there is another way - to be treated, to be in a R, it gives me hope.

I'm working on my self esteem so that I can get to the place where I would stand up to H - even though he is the WAS - and know that unless he changes too, I won't want him back. I'm trying to remind myself that a R can be different = with him, or with somebody someday.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/01/09 06:10 AM
STronger - what exactly is a "nutty with a lot of fog around him?"
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/01/09 01:10 PM
(Smile)
It's our men going crazy with bouts of sanity....but the fog is always there and distorts their vision. The fog is what allows them to accuse of us of being crazy and irrational.

My H would do crazy crap....for example getting involved with the OW and then somehow, I was the one who made that happen....? Really?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/01/09 05:09 PM
Yeah, what is the deal with the craziness, the fog, the distortions. My H attributes all kinds of crazy stuff to me that just isn't true.Like the way whenver H comes over, he yells and criticizes about somthing - inevitably. The other day it was the computer chord knocking a picture off his desk - another time it was a spot on the carpet, another time it was that I didn't close our garden gate carefully enough. H attributes this to my "carelessness, lack of awareness," or that I just don't care, or that this indicates somehow that I'm an irresponsible parent. It's so far off base - all this blame.

Also, for the three sessions of MC he attended, he said all he wanted to talk about was MY VOLITILITY. But he is the one acting irrationally out of anger - EVERY TIME WE ARE TOGETHER - WITHOUT FAIL. And H said My issues with sex were the problem - BUT HE HASN'T TOUCHED ME FOR YEARS - NOT EVEN A KISS HELLO OR GOOD BYE. I mean really, how can he be so blind? How can H really walk into therapy and say MY two problems are the only problems? This makes me so insane - sometimes I wonder why I am the only one trying to get this M back on track. Why don't I just leave? The pain is unbearable sometimes.
Posted By: Bridgestone Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/01/09 05:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
How can H really walk into therapy and say MY two problems are the only problems?


Possibly, because he is a very scared man... afraid of looking at and admitting his faults.

Possibly because his self-esteem is poor and he equates having problems/issues/human frailties as 'bad' = he's bad & not lovable

Possibly in his mind no frailties = he's all good & lovable

His actions & words are horrible, I'm not excusing them..

finding some compassion for the 'why'.. might make your mental load lighter.

just a thought based on some of my experiences
Peace
Bridge
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/01/09 05:54 PM
Bridgestone~ Thank you! You are exactly right
. I get caught up in feeling angry at him for accusing me of crazy stuff - but you are reminding me of my new attitude in the M - that of love and compassion. You are right, there are two parts - setting boundaries with how I want to be treated, and trying to understand the feelings underneath his actions. I'm so glad you reminded me.

I was in PC (personal counselling) yesterday. My C said that when he is yelling and blaming and criticizing, to see him as feeling powerless - which is similar to what you say as fear, as not feeling lovable with imperfections - and to realize people yell when they fear nobody will listen. H has a very rejecting and narcissistic mother and it is no surprise to me that he fears that I would not take him seriously. He does have low self-esteem, he does have to feel "perfect" to feel ok. He is the oldest Jewish son and he "did everything right - ivy league school, good job, first to marry and have a child.

H told me last week ( I think this is underneath a lot of the nutty) that he is terrified of telling his mother about our marital problems. Somehow he can't show that his life isn't perfect I guess. H said that he's afraid she will blame him, gossip about him, make fun of him.

H has always said he thinks I"m "trying to screw him" or I'm "making fun of him" and I never understood why. I guess now I'm reading between the lines.

His reactions of blaming me are easy because I have admitted my faults, have no qualms about admitting my problems (maybe blaming self too much). But here's the rub - it's quite a challenge to hold love and compassion for a person who is yelling and criticizing and blaming. But the old me would have just focused on defending myself - only to escalate things. Now I'm trying to take a deep breath and help him feel heard - which means remembering he feels feel, powerlessness, insecurity. It's hard to hear through all the growling and snapping that inside is a scared dog who has been hurt in the past.

C says that once H begins to experience what it is like to feel heard, he may not feel the need to yell to be heard.

Love and compassion hopefully will free us from fear.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 03:49 AM
Feeling in Limboland = things are going better, but I am still not starting any R talks. Holding firm is tough. Want to say "things are going so well - where are we at" but no way. Still waiting to see if he actually files those Separation papers - they haven't shown up yet...even though he threatened a week ago.
Posted By: Bridgestone Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 04:23 AM
Try reading
any of J. Stosny's books
How to improve your marriage without talking about it

or
Love without hurt

the 2nd one would be good for your H if he can be reasoned with at all.

Try thinking of it as he's just yelling to be heard.. .kind of like a 3 year old having a temper tantrum. He just really, really, really wants your attention.. and he's been getting it by acting out like this for a while now. It will take some time to break this habit.

Set a boundary with him when he is calm & not yelling.

H, I REALLY want to hear what you are saying and to be on your side & understand you, however, When you are yelling and blaming, I feel disrepsected and a bit afraid so I'm going to just say,"___ ___ ___" and leave the room.

When you calm down and can share with me respectfully and quietly your thoughts & feelings, I'll listen.

It helped some with my H.. at least it gave me some control over the situation, let me take care of me by respeting myself & what I would tolerate when I was talked to..and when I would leave the room he knew why I was leaving. Sometimes I'd barely get back in & I'd be out again. It got better for a bit.

Good luck.
Bridge
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 04:37 AM
Bridge
Thank you. I have read "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" and "You Don't Have To Take It Any More". Both fabulous, I love Stosny. I will look for the other one you mentioned.

I have tried with varying degrees of success over the years to say exactly what you said. In the past, it would sometimes work, now it works less frequently. It actually angers him more, gets him to speak to me even meaner, and he resents me walking away from him. Even though numerous MC;s have suggested this exact technique, he is terribly resistent to it. I'll keep trying, though.

But you are dead on about the three year old tantrum. It's very hard for me to experience this strong, intimidating, adult male as a toddler having a temper tantrum, but in hindsight, this is exactly what it is. But it's also a scary kind of control and power thing that sends chills up my spine.

I'll keep trying not to let him put me in fear mode when he is screaming. I'll try to hear him as the child who needs to be heard instead of the scary growling wolf, I'll try to be cool in the heat of it.

You have had success with this statement? I applaud you!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 05:56 AM
Oh, I just realized why my H is MIA. He told me his L was going to write up a separation agreement this week. He's probably got issues around that coming up so he's distancing. Sigh. Can't pursue. Off to watch some tv and snuggle my teddy bear!
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 12:43 PM
There's not much you can do about the separation papers.
All I can tell you is if your H should be around when you get them, read them over, like it's the daily paper and do NOT freak out. That will freak him out.

I speak from experience.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 03:58 PM
Awesome, I'll just keep ironing and watching "Family Guy". I love that.

This morning he got son ready for school. He was not yelling, but I got a list of criticisms. At least he delivered them in a calmer tone!

Looks at gardeners whacking huge blackberry bushes "You could be doing that."

"What is this pink stain on the couch? IF you want to waste your time cleaning it, go ahead. I won't." (Kids make messes - it takes one minute to clean)

"It's a good idea to get S's pants cleaned. He is wearing these ones with a paint stain on them." (Kids make messes - he got the paint on them from having fun. The others are in the dryer.)

"You don't need to FOLD laundry - it wastes time" (I didn't ask for a manager, but thanks for the advice)

I swear he is convincing himself that all I do is waste time at home so that he can tell himself he doesn't need me. I'm so sick of being kicked around.

Advice?
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 04:37 PM
Sweet Pea,
My advice is laugh.
Are you kidding? When do men notice anything on the couch besides the remote?
Thanks for letting me know my kid's clothing should be washed....I was wondering if I should clean them or let him be called Pig Pen.
And hell, if I'm going to wash the laundry why stop there? Let's be crazy, let's actually FOLD it!

He sounds like the mean bitch on the cheerleading team who just couldn't be happy with herself so she picked on everyone!

It's time to laugh Hope. Not in his face just to yourself.

Seriously:

"What is this pink stain on the couch? IF you want to waste your time cleaning it, go ahead. I won't."
Answer:
You might be right because I have no idea what that is.

"It's a good idea to get S's pants cleaned. He is wearing these ones with a paint stain on them."
Answer:
I saw that....think I should just trash them? (Sincerely, not snotty)

"You don't need to FOLD laundry - it wastes time"
Answer:
(Laughing) While I see your point, unfortunately, I have to otherwise everyone will make fun of us and call us the Wrinkles. I can't let you walk around like that!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 04:42 PM
I don't know how you laugh. My H is not like most men - he is so anal is it scary. Have you watched the show "Monk?" or he's like Felix Unger - except instead of it being his own nerosis, it's blamed on me.

He's always complained about the stains, etc...but it's ramped up many notches since moving out. Like I said, I think the implication is what a [censored] up I am, how I waste my time, and how much better he'd be without me.

Laugh...God I'd have to fake it big time. I will try next time - lord knows tomorrow there will be five more criticisms waiting for me. Laugh? I'm crying right now. How can I laugh.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 04:44 PM
I guess I did the best I could, I just calmly agreed iwth him and walked away. Now I'm trying to find a way to laugh this knot right out of my stomach.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 07:28 PM
No, not in his face. To yourself.

You can not react to his crap. When it's true geniune crap....there should be no reaction, like it's a stranger who doesn't like your shoes. Who cares?

If he said "Honey, I don't like the way you talk to me sometimes, for example....." Listen to that and work with him.

"Honey, I see a water mark on this plate...I think you should throw it away" is ridiculous.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 08:25 PM
Thanks.

I'm feeling down this week - I'm starting to fear he's pulling back preparing to slam me with D papers.

I'm guessing what's really behind the nutty crap.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/02/09 10:28 PM
He never says anything that rational, Stronger. He says the irrational things. Why does it bother me more than if a stranger said it? I guess because the implication is that he is using it to justify to me and to himself why he should divorce me, why I haven't changed, etc.

Or maybe he just plain gets off on the power, I don't know.

I wish I could pretend it was just a stranger saying it. I've been feeling awful because of it all day. Wish I could not let it cut me to the core and feel so afraid.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/03/09 12:11 AM
It's all of the above possibly.
It is hurtful. How you really shut that out, I'm not sure.
My suggestion, don't believe a word he says. Don't engage him. What's the point? Eventually he'll tire of your ability to shut him out as he's being irrational.

Have you thought of doing this....agreeing with him?

What's this spot on the couch? You say "OMG!!! I have no idea! But you're right! How ugly!"

You don't need to fold laundry as it's a waste of time! You say "Good point, my time is valuable." And then don't fold it. When he bitches "My clothes are wrinkled" you say "Oh, sorry, I thought I would save some time and not fold it, but you're right, that looks shabby."

Go back and forth with him, not back and forth against him.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/03/09 12:28 AM
I'll try...who knows?

Part of his Felix Ungerness is that I've never done his laundry. So I won't get any effect from that. In the eight years we've been together, he doesn't want me touching his stuff. Lately he won't even eat the food I make him. It's weird.

I have tried agreeing with him - can't remember any big changes, but hey, why not? Working iwth him instead of against him can't hurt.

It's more my internal head trips that I need to work on. I've been alone, but spinning all day with the fear of being criticized for the next five things. I scubbed all day. I worked hard and it won't be noticed. It's crazy.
Well...you're appreciated on here smile
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/03/09 04:33 AM
Thank you EB. I really needed to feel appreciated.

I finally got to a place of peace tonight. I had to let go of my obssessive thoughts - Then I can truly be with myself and at peace.

Letting go is not just external - so much is internal.

I finally let go of this annoying thought train: "H criticizes me. H will use this to prove to himself I haven't changed. H will D me. How will S (4) and I survive? Will I be able to afford this house? Will I be able to afford food? Will I ever have a happy R?"

Now I let go - time for a book.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/03/09 06:24 AM
Hope,

Cheer up. You are a sweetheart. Your H is being a complete butt head right now. H better get his act together before you wind up done with him. Things will get better one way or the other. In the end, something good will come out of this for you.

BTW, Stronger is right. You do need to get to a point where you can laugh about some of this stuff. Even if you can't right now, try to find something to tickle your funny bone- there are lots of good comedies out on DVD, books, t.v. shows- there has to be something out there that cracks you up. Plus seeing you laugh will either drive your H nuts or spark his curiosity. Try it out.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/03/09 04:45 PM
Called H last night to talk about my mom - she's acting all weird too - I was worried about somethings she said last night to S when babysitting. H never called me back. I went into panic mode - H is avoiding me - he's getting D papers, he's with an OW - I don't know. H always calls me back. It means something, I just don't know what. More panic.

Try not to obssess today....grrr...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/03/09 05:20 PM
BJ, Thank you ! I need to get that perspective - I'm sweet and he's a butt! Thank you thank you I needed to hear that.

And the two of you are absolutely right - I have a box set of Arrested Development my dad gave me - I'm going to start watching it. I also have a box CD set of David Sedaris someone gave me - I'm going to start listening to that. Comedy!

It will drive him nuts if I'm laughing at him.

Thank you everyone - you give me strength!
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/03/09 05:44 PM
Hope,
You MUST get out of your own head. Maybe he dropped his phone in the toilet. I've done that. Not fun and everyone said "Oh I thought you were mad at me." All my friends and everyone else on the planet. I wasn't mad at anyone but me. I didn't call anyone, I just went to the store to get a new phone and it took me out of contact with everyone for about four hours, all told.

He may just be busy.

So really STOP. You can do this if you don't defeat yourself first.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I'm sweet and he's a butt!


Well you may not be able to laugh, but this gave me a laugh.

If you reread it, I bet you will too.

Too funny!

laugh
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/03/09 06:58 PM
LOL THanks EB - I didn't quite mean it that way but it did make me laugh.

STronger you are right about the head, but Felix Under NEVER drops his phone in the toilet, let alone lose it, let alone, not get his messages. There's a reason.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/03/09 07:28 PM
Ok, there's a reason. Why does it have to be negative?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/03/09 08:25 PM
OMG Stronger, as usual, you were right. I hope. He called like nothing was the matter at lunch break. I still don't know why he didn't call me back last night = he always does, so it's suspicious. BUt general business is the thing. Thank you for the vote for rationality.
But getting out of my head was the best advice -

And as for BJ and EB, you also were right - I put on some comedy, looked at the bright side, and put on my strongself suit. Talked myself into - if he wants a D, so be it. My life will be good - heck, probably better.

Then he called immediately - and boy was he polite.

They are psychic, aren't they?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/03/09 08:27 PM
Stronger -
exactly - why does he have to be so negative? Who knows? (I find myself saying that a lot lately, if you notice!)

The point is, I don't have to be. I don't have to get sucked down into his pit of negativity.

You're so right. His choice to be negative is just that - his choice. Today I'm back upbeat and clinging to the positive!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 01:19 AM
OK, I was right - he says he wants to talk legal stuff tonight. God help me...I'm so scared. I don't know if I can emotionally handle it.

Wish me well friends, and stay tuned. AFter S goes to bed in a couple hours, I'm expecting D papers.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 02:14 AM
People! Help! He's gonna lay the big D papers on me in about an hour = and I'm freaking out!!!! How do I handle it?

I guess I'll have to iron and watch family guy. LOL
well...?

what happened?

are you ok?

we're all still here with you.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 07:19 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
People! Help! He's gonna lay the big D papers on me in about an hour = and I'm freaking out!!!! How do I handle it?

I guess I'll have to iron and watch family guy. LOL


Hope,

First off, your H is not going to serve you with D papers himself, you are going to be served by a process server if H did in fact file for D. I understand feeling anxious about receiving D papers, that is perfectly normal under the circumstances, but don't worry yourself sick over the anticipation. If you do get served, handle it as calmly as you can. Do you have any friends or close relatives that you can either visit or who can come to your place if you do get served? Sometimes having someone there with you can help to take the edge off of the initial shock of something like receiving D papers. This is something you may want to consider.

Hang in there Hope. You are in my prayers.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 07:41 AM
THanks people
It went pretty bad. I'm pretty much wanting to give all this up.

It spun into a R talk and it went to the same place south it always goes.

I did it all wrong. I did everything DB says not to. I begged, I pleaded, I tried to convince and he dug in his heels even more.

so of course, he doesn't see any changes becuase I didn't act any different.

I should have stayed calm and cool. I should have just agreed to everything. I should have let go. Crap! I lost my 180's! Maybe it's time for some going dark. I have to show change somehow.

Thank you friends. I'm so gla dyou're here with me. I know you understand.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 07:47 AM
Ps It wasn't papers yet - he wants more financial info re: house, finances, etc. to give to his lawyer. I hit the roof and I just started panicking and saying I didn't want a D and I want reconisiliation, etc and suddenly we were talking R not money. It was all wrong. Oh well, I'm no saint yet.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 12:31 PM
Let me ask the tough question here: Hope, are you sure there's no OW?

Next, YOU NEED TO SLEEP. You need to take care of you physically and emotionally. Please please get some sleep. During this time, it's almost impossible to turn your brain off. See your doctor if you need to, but sleep is crucial.

Also, I was served papers. And H was there. He freaked out, not me.

You know what you did wrong. No worries. Get back on the horse and learn from this.

Hope, you really really need to take a step back and breathe, calm down. It's sort of strange, but I was able to handle being served because I imagined it. I put myself through the scenario mentally first. And I did it serveral different ways, and one of them was how I would handle it if H was there at the time....and guess what? I was able to take the papers, I even smiled at the kid deliveringg them. I looked at H, who looked horrified....he then went to play with S in S's room. I read them, was very calm. Pointed out some mistakes in the filing (great lawyer you got there honey) and then I IRONED HIS CLOTHES AND WATCHED FAMILY GUY. Never said anything to him, except when he was leaving...."What do you want me to do with these papers? How do you want me to respond?" He said "I don't know, ask me tomorrow." Know what? Why bother. I know what I'm going to do. He doesn't get a say.

And oddly enough, we're still "dating" according to him!

Admittedly, I want my new marriage with my H. But I'm ready for either outcome. I'm ready to work hard to create a new marriage or I'm ready to work hard at a new life without him.

I know you are very new to this and not as far along as me and we're both dealing with our H's very special kind of personalized BS made just for us, but you can do this. Hope, I promise you can do this.

You made a mistake. You learned. New day. New attitude, new way of thinking. Imagine all the scenarios and imagine, with your DB knowledge how you will handle yourself, what you will say and it will happen.
You OK this morning? Don't beat yourself up too badly.

It happens. It has happened to me recently too.

Regroup.

Catch your breath.

Think of how much you have done differently. Give yourself some credit. Feel confident about the changes that you have made.

Don't forget "I'm sweet, he's a butt!" OK, maybe not the best place for it, but I still think that could be your humorous mantra.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 03:33 PM
Thank you friends.

You are all so right. EB I will try not to beat myself up. It's hard when I know I did everything against the DB plan. I just lost it when he told me how much filing legal separation will cost.

STronger, you are right and I wish I could have been as strong as you. I wish I could have just said, ok when he went on the usual WAS tyrade - "I can't get over the past - 100% of our relationship was awful - it was all a delusion, there was never a real relationship - I'm not going to do this any more." He said if I don't sign Separation agreement he will file D papers and it will cost even more money. Obviously there are more rounds and I'll have more chances to sit calmly through this.

I know I can't change him, so why did I try? I know it won't work to convince him how much I'm changing so why did I get mad that he is ignoring the changes I'm making?

god I wish I had somehow I have to accept the separation without accepting it. It's so weird. I don't want it. But if I show that it gives him more power.

The more he asks for the legal separation and says he 99% sure nothing will change, the sadder I become remembering the good times. It's a real mind twist. I become this crazy person who can't remember the pain he put me through. I remember all our hopes and dreams and the birth of our child - and buying our house = and I have terrible nightmares of my child being permanently damaged by being raised in two households.

Ok, you're right. I have to stop thinking. I have to get through this shock and try to remember "Ignore 100% of what he says and 50% of what he does." I don't know how, but I have to let him walk away if that is what he wants. And with total calm! SIgh.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 03:37 PM
EB, I have to remember what I have done to change even if he won't see it. I realize even though I'm supposed to make the changes for me, I still want him to notice them. He's blamed me for everything - and here I am doing what he asked and he is blind to all of it. It is disheartening. I know you understand.

But I have to go back to = I'm making the changes for me. Right? That's what we are doing?
Posted By: Coach Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 03:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
OK, I was right - he says he wants to talk legal stuff tonight. God help me...I'm so scared. I don't know if I can emotionally handle it.

Wish me well friends, and stay tuned. AFter S goes to bed in a couple hours, I'm expecting D papers.


First rule of military survival school - "Is anything trying to kill me?" Yes - defend yourself No - take cover, figure out where you are

So H4L is anything trying to kill you?
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 04:26 PM
H4L
When we tell you to do things for you, we mean you have to do everything FOR YOU, including your changes.

Here's why....if you are making positive changes for him, you're going to be disappointed when he doesn't seem to care or notice. If you are making positive changes for you, and you like them, then alls good. You are putting way too much into his reactions to everything.

Here's the new attitude that's carried me a very long way, prepared me.....I am the prize. Truly I am. I have made great changes that STRONGER likes and if H will benefit from my changes good for him. If my coworkers and friends benefit from changes, good for them too. But the changes are for ME.

Back to the prize thing....I'm a good catch. I act like it. I've even told H as much. "You think you can do better than this....well, I doubt it, but that's really your call."

If you act like the prize, you become it. If you act like a confident woman, you become one. If you act like you're falling apart inside, you will.

You, like me, are the prize.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 04:27 PM
Coach = Well maybe emotionally and financially he is. Mostly emotionally. The fact that I engage and not detach allows him to kill my sense of self. How do I not do this?
Posted By: Coach Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 04:37 PM
Quote:
Coach = Well maybe emotionally and financially he is. Mostly emotionally. The fact that I engage and not detach allows him to kill my sense of self. How do I not do this?


So the answer is no. So figure out where you are. What resources do you have? What's the plan for moving forward?

Detaching is just letting go of the outcome. Stop being afraid of divorce (it won't kill you). You control your thoughts, actions, and feelings.
Think thru it - he is going to serve you with D papers. How are you going to handle it? You don't control whether he does or not. He expects you to be scared, hysterical, undone and crushed. That's how he controls you. Change the dynamic. Be strong, confident and wise. Then see who gets scared.


Cheers
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 04:40 PM
Stronger - ok, I'm working on the prize. Ugh. I have to pull away from all his blame. It just gets to me and destroys the prize. I have to find a way to feel like the prize even though he sees me as the problem to escape from. It's not true and I need to find a way to not buy into it.

Man I wish I was 'STRONGER' like you!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 04:40 PM
Right on Coach (and Stronger). You are so right. Thank you!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 04:42 PM
He's stomping around the house this morning, growling, getting his papers in order. Big show. I think I'm going to leave the house now! I feel myself feeling scared again. Towards life! He won't kill me!
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/04/09 05:44 PM
Hope...what would happen if you "backboned" him? Meaning, show him yours?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 01:01 AM
I am not quite sure what you mean by backbone him - can you please explain?

Actually, I just left the house this am, and after work took a walk and psyched myself up again. I pumped up my anger at his bad behavior, instead of cringing in pain. I worked myself up to feel my power, and everytime I felt scared of his anger, felt myself walking on eggshells to please him I told myself I was not going to do it. I talked myself into some self esteem and personal power.

Lo and behold the crazy wild bull that was chasing me around the ring this morning was a more rational human being when he arrived for dinner - like my old H again.

He's all over the map!

But like I said, they are psychic or something. They can sense the fear = like a wild animal.

God knows what I'll be faced with tomorrow, but I was proud that I took all your advice and decided to brush myself off again and focus on ME. FOR ME. NOT TO PLEASE HIM. That is truly good stuff.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 01:56 AM
Originally Posted By: Coach


So the answer is no. So figure out where you are. What resources do you have? What's the plan for moving forward?

Detaching is just letting go of the outcome. Stop being afraid of divorce (it won't kill you). You control your thoughts, actions, and feelings.
Think thru it - he is going to serve you with D papers. How are you going to handle it? You don't control whether he does or not. He expects you to be scared, hysterical, undone and crushed. That's how he controls you. Change the dynamic. Be strong, confident and wise. Then see who gets scared.


THanks Coach. This got me through the day and turning around my attitude to a PMA!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 02:22 AM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
H4L
When we tell you to do things for you, we mean you have to do everything FOR YOU, including your changes.

Here's why....if you are making positive changes for him, you're going to be disappointed when he doesn't seem to care or notice. If you are making positive changes for you, and you like them, then alls good. You are putting way too much into his reactions to everything.

Here's the new attitude that's carried me a very long way, prepared me.....I am the prize. Truly I am. I have made great changes that STRONGER likes and if H will benefit from my changes good for him. If my coworkers and friends benefit from changes, good for them too. But the changes are for ME.

Back to the prize thing....I'm a good catch. I act like it. I've even told H as much. "You think you can do better than this....well, I doubt it, but that's really your call."

If you act like the prize, you become it. If you act like a confident woman, you become one. If you act like you're falling apart inside, you will.

You, like me, are the prize.


Hope,

I like this post by Stronger- she really hit the nail on the head. This is where you need to get to with your thinking. Once you get there, you are the one with the power- just like Stronger.

Your H- like my W in my sitch- is playing with fire. They have a good thing going with us but right now they are too fogged out to realize it. Felix better get his marbles together before it's too late.

Take care.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 05:12 AM
Thanks, as always BJ. Perhaps we mess up by caring too much?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 06:44 AM
I'm in shock. I just can't wrap my head around the fact that he is actually writing up papers for a legal separation. I can't believe we're looking at financial division. I know I need to be as cool as Stronger, but I just don't know how to process this!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 08:46 AM
YEp. HE HAS AN OW.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 08:47 AM
YEp. HE HAS AN OW.
I'm so sorry Hope.

What happened?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 02:16 PM
I just put pieces together and asked him. He claims he will only go back to MC with me once I sign the legal separation AND he will not seeing OW. If I refuse, he'll file straight for D and not look back. I haven't slept a wink. Don't know where to begin.
I am SO sorry.

Your game has changed. Have your goals?

Pray for support and guidance.
Pray for your husband...as much as you may not want to.
Go be with family.
Sleep.
Don't forget to eat.
Evaluate your sitch. What are your goals at this point? Whay can you do to get there?


We're all still here with you.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 04:50 PM
I mean he will not stop seeing OW. I feel awful.Looking back, I had a chance to get him back in the past, he was saying if I did xyz he wouldn't necessarily get a D. I can't believe I didn't see it - he got tested for stds, he's been gone for mysterious outings he was defensive about saying who he was with... it's really bad. I'm obssessing and despondent I'll never get ht o provto him things can be differdnt so he WANTS to come back. Thaat's what db says too but how do i do it? Go dark?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 04:51 PM
i dont have goals ... i dont know how to do it now. i just want H back. to pick me.
breathe. one breath at a time.

I don't think going dark is always the answer. the more you fight him on the separation papers the more it seems to him like you haven't changed. have you talked to a lawyer?

my W has been asking for a sep for months. the more I resister the more she saw me as controlling her. I finally told her that I love her enough to do it for er. if it truly made er happy.

it didn't stop her. she's still planning to go through with it, but it may have showed the change bigger than anthing else I could have done.

talk to a lawyer. give him the sep.
he's telling you exactly what he wants. can you do it?

you're almost guaranteed not to get him back if you don't.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 05:44 PM
OK EB. WIll do. How are you doing today?

I rearranged the furniture in my bedroom = cleaned out his stuff. Can't stomach anything that reminds me of "us".

Going to do this for the whole house - it may even hit him that things are different. But for the first time, I am doing it for me.

Aren't you afraid that legal sep. means divorce? Like you are telling them you're ok with it?
My W has been cleaning her own stuff out of our house lately.

I don't want a separation. Not at all. I'm sick of being afraid though. I can also see that there's no way around it in my sitch though. The more I fight it, the more she wants it (remember the see saw from the Dance of Anger book?) I don't want it, but she feels she needs it.

The more I fight it, the more she wants it.

If this is something we need to go through to get to the other side (whatever that other side looks like) let's just get it started.

I don't know your H, but I'd bet the more you
fight it the more he wants it.
How am I? Up and down.

Cycling. I gave more details on my thread earlier.

I hope you're finding some peace for a few minutes at least.
How am I? Up and down.

Cycling. I gave more details on my thread earlier.

I hope you're finding some peace for a few minutes at least.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/05/09 07:20 PM
You're right. Let's not fight them. Gotta go - I'll check in with you later.

We're here for you1!!!
How are you doing this morning?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/07/09 01:41 AM
Sorry for the late reply - long weekend, I'll catch up soon. Thinking you, EB and Stronger, esp. How are your weekends going?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/07/09 01:43 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
YEp. HE HAS AN OW.


Hope,

I think that given how you described your H's nitpickiness and ungratefulness, many of us are not surprised to find out that he has a OW. I can speak from experience as this is what my W has done to me- criticize and denegrate me verbally and in her head to justify her involvement with her OM. I'm sure it's the same with you H and his OW.

Neither your H nor my W know in reality how good they really have it with us or what they are jeopardizing by fooling around with their affair partners. They are the type of people who don't know what the have until it is gone. I don't know if this is reassuring to hear or not right now Hope, but you are a far better woman than OW- a much better catch for sure.

I'm sure you are still reeling from the discovery of OW. Right now focus on getting plenty of sleep and reaching out to friends and family- along with the rest of us here on the forums- for support.

Hang in there Hope. You are in my prayers. Take care.
Posted By: MrBond Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/07/09 04:17 AM
I am sorry you find yourself in this sitch, but you have a small window to turn this around to your favor.

"He claims he will only go back to MC with me once I sign the legal separation AND he will not seeing OW. If I refuse, he'll file straight for D and not look back. I haven't slept a wink. Don't know where to begin."

DO NOT sign the paper. He is essentially blackmailing you. Do you really believe that he's not going to see the OW after you sign the paper? If you do, I have some property on the moon I'd like to sell you. He's huffing and puffing because he's been in the driver's seat this whole time.

Now is your chance to grab that control away from him. Tell him "you know, you are right, I'm not going to share my man with another woman, especially one who goes out with married men. I would like you out of the house in 48hours. I'm going out tonight. See you."

Then dress to kill in front of him and leave.

You have to do this quick before he collects his thoughts, but you are giving him what he wants after all. In fact, it's quite laughable. Act as if you don't have a care in the world and have something more important to do than think of him.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/07/09 06:11 AM
Well, he already moved out four months ago.

Tonight I'm feeling rage I didn't know I had. He told me he will not stop seeing the OW and it's up to me to prove in therapy that I'm better than her.

He's very hurt from some things I've done in the past. I've blamed myself since he left.

Tonight I'm furious that he blames me to justify his actions. I am furious that he won't admit his part in the disintegration of our marriage. I've done a lot of things wrong, and that is why he left. But I'm tired of that being the end of the story.

And then, yesterday we had the best day together as a family that we've had since he left. He spent every minute with us and it felt so solid. We stayed up talking until four in the morning - he opened up to me in ways that he hasn't since he left. I got the closeness feeling I've been wanting for months, yet I have all these bombs dropped too. I don't understand what's going on. It's so confusing.

I feel completely mind f***ed. It such a roller coaster ride, I don't know what to think or feel.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/07/09 08:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Well, he already moved out four months ago.

Tonight I'm feeling rage I didn't know I had. He told me he will not stop seeing the OW and it's up to me to prove in therapy that I'm better than her.


Hope,

I know the feelings your describing well. Just like Felix, my W refuses to put her crack pipe (OM) down too. To hell with the OW. You don't need to prove anything to anybody except yourself. Time to start assessing where things went wrong in your MR, what your contributions were to the problem(s) and how you intend to address them with yourself.

Quote:
He's very hurt from some things I've done in the past. I've blamed myself since he left.


He has been gone four months and before that, how long was Felix putting you through hell? Seems to me your done apologizing to dumba$$ and blaming yourself. Enough! I'm with Stuck- time to start playing hardball.

Quote:
Tonight I'm furious that he blames me to justify his actions. I am furious that he won't admit his part in the disintegration of our marriage. I've done a lot of things wrong, and that is why he left. But I'm tired of that being the end of the story.


Of course he won't accept accountability for his role in the MR- I don't think any of these WAS ever do- it's everybody else's fault.

Quote:
And then, yesterday we had the best day together as a family that we've had since he left. He spent every minute with us and it felt so solid. We stayed up talking until four in the morning - he opened up to me in ways that he hasn't since he left. I got the closeness feeling I've been wanting for months, yet I have all these bombs dropped too. I don't understand what's going on. It's so confusing.

I feel completely mind f***ed. It such a roller coaster ride, I don't know what to think or feel.


I hate to say this Hope, but it sounds like Felix (do you mind if I call him Felix?)is just trying to butter you up here in order to gain your cooperation. I had similar experiences with my W earlier in my sitch too. My W stopped the nonsense when it became apparent I wasn't buying it anymore.

For now, be selfish- think and feel only for yourself.

Hang in there, you will get through this.

Take care.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 01:33 AM
Stuck and BigJohn are right.

Here's what you need to find out, first and foremost....IF you agree to this separation, does that legally allow him to date other people?

I ask this because in my state, once someone files, they can date, screw around, do whatever they want because in the state's eyes, they are basically single and are no longer in the marriage officially since they filed. HOWEVER, if they are still married, no filing, and they have an OP, that's marital misconduct and should it go to divorce the spouse that was not involved with an OP or another relationship is going to be able to take the cheater to the cleaners.

Your H may already know this, hence he wants the legal separation, and if that's the case, do NOT agree to anything legal. Keep the ball in your court, which in case you don't realize, you do have.

Now, you maybe saying, I don't want him to stay in the marriage because he's afraid of going to divorce court against me. Fine, yes that's not a good reason, but you need to buy time.

It doesn't matter why he stays, just that he does. Then you have the time to create the best relationship you can....so that in the future when he has stayed in it, it will be for the right reason.....basically, the ends justifies the means. Understand?

Do NOT agree to this legal separation.

What's more, I'm not sure he's convinced he wants a divorce.

And yes, he's going to do everything he can to make you the crazy bad wife to justify to everyone why he's trying to do this. Stop fighting with him, NOW. Do NOT give him more fuel.

You can do this. You just need to calm down and I can't remember who wrote down what you needed to say, but I agreed with it. It was beautiful and perfect. No, you can't kick him out but you can send the very clear message you don't share.

More than once, I told my H, "You think you can do better than me? What are you waiting for?" I've said this in more recent days....not in the beginning when I was a scared idiot. Before I found DBing. I wish I had said it to him the first night, but neither here nor there now.

You can do this. You can turn this around. Your ability to stay calm and install the filter is going to be your greatest weapons. (The filter is installed between your brain and mouth. Don't say what you really want to say out of emotion, pretty much say the most unexpected, calm rational thing you think of....basically the opposite of what your emotions would say.)

No legal agreement....if you can help it. Find out why from a legal stand point of why he would want it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 04:05 AM
It's a no=fault divorce state. OP or whatever cannot be factored in. I am just telling him I'll go along with it to buy me some time. Meanwhile he's been spending 95% of his time at home and being angry way less often since we talked about this.

I'm still going to hardball it with my lawyer and if I don't accept it, I can blame it on my lawyer smile

The other idea is that - he claims this is to protect both of us financially - in case of divorce, so I'm going to look at other options like a post-nup, etc.

He claims his lawyer told him not to go to therapy until legal separation claims are filed so that it doesn't look like reconisiliation. I am also going to debate this with my lawyer.

I may call his bluff and tell him let's get a D after talking to my L. Then I'll say that is what I was recommended to do and he can't blame me - like he always does.

But I'm staying calm - always.

Meanwhile, I'm looking at myself and being the best wife I can be. He'll see what he's missing.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 04:08 AM
PS He is also putting in the legal agreement to go to MC for six months and not to file a D for a year. I intend to ask him to at least double this if I do agree to sign. I haven't yet. I'm just not giving him the pleasure of talking about this until my lawyer sees it.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 04:37 AM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
HOWEVER, if they are still married, no filing, and they have an OP, that's marital misconduct and should it go to divorce the spouse that was not involved with an OP or another relationship is going to be able to take the cheater to the cleaners.


Wow I like Florida law! Too bad I'm living in California right now (No fault D State).

Quote:
More than once, I told my H, "You think you can do better than me? What are you waiting for?" I've said this in more recent days....not in the beginning when I was a scared idiot. Before I found DBing. I wish I had said it to him the first night, but neither here nor there now.


This is a great attitude for an LBS to have. Very appealing. Hope, this is the message you need to get across to your H. Great advice from Stronger.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 05:11 AM
Quote:
He claims his lawyer told him not to go to therapy until legal separation claims are filed so that it doesn't look like reconisiliation. I am also going to debate this with my lawyer.


Sounds like you H's attorney has his best interest at heart.

Quote:
I may call his bluff and tell him let's get a D after talking to my L. Then I'll say that is what I was recommended to do and he can't blame me - like he always does.


Hope, wait until you are fully informed and you have a plan in place before you make any ultimatums to your H. Once you and your attorney have decided on a course of action, break things down for your H. Don't bother bluffing- decide in advance what your decision is going to be and stick to it regardless of what your H says or does as your H will likely think you ARE bluffing and will try to call your bluff.

Quote:
Meanwhile, I'm looking at myself and being the best wife I can be. He'll see what he's missing.


Exactly.
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 11:32 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
[quote=Stronger]
Quote:
More than once, I told my H, "You think you can do better than me? What are you waiting for?" I've said this in more recent days....not in the beginning when I was a scared idiot. Before I found DBing. I wish I had said it to him the first night, but neither here nor there now.


This is a great attitude for an LBS to have. Very appealing. Hope, this is the message you need to get across to your H. Great advice from Stronger.

Assuming the message is delivered with confidence and not anger.

I'm not in this exact situation but I can recall several times when W expressed to me her confidence in herself in different ways like she's a good person, good catch, good mother, forgiven herself and me, etc. Those things really struck me and pulled me in. If they had been delivered in any way other than gently with love and kindness, I would have gone the other direction.
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 11:39 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
PS He is also putting in the legal agreement to go to MC for six months and not to file a D for a year. I intend to ask him to at least double this if I do agree to sign. I haven't yet. I'm just not giving him the pleasure of talking about this until my lawyer sees it.

I'm not up to speed on this whole story but I'm wondering why anyone would create or sign a document with MC and do not file clauses? I wouldn't. Seems like you're trying to have this document do too much. W and I have a legal maintenance agreement that protects both parties interests, primarily financial. IMO it's better to let the DBing process take over from there...again, IMO!

I live in a no fault state...auto accidents and marriage accidents <-- BTW that's a joke ;-)
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 12:01 PM
One last thought on financial agreements.

In my view I like a simple legal document drawn up by attorney and legally notarized because even though its a binding legal document, it doesn't have the same psychological implications as formal legal separation.

I was in to see our CPA last week about taxes. He asked me to sign a waiver protecting himself because my wife and I were separated. I said, no we're not legally separated, we're living in separate places with a legal document (maintenance agreement). He said that it was just as strong as a judge ordered separation.

So for my money its a good approach.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 12:32 PM
Hope,
I live in a no fault state too. Please ask your lawyer what I recommended. I had no idea about any of this until I spoke with a lawyer. And I realized, had H had the balls to file in January, there would have been no marital misconduct according to the state because filing is enough proof he really wanted out of the marriage.

Please please really reconsider this legal separation. He hasn't gone straight for divorce and there's a reason...you need to find out what it is.

The people I've met who've gotten legal separations, two of them, it was a matter of religion for one man and for the other, it was financial....the spouse who wanted out had amazing health coverage but didn't want to leave his spouse high and dry, so they legall separated, so he could date and she couldn't hit him with marital misconduct in the future. They are still legally married and both living with OTHER people. Weird, but true.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 03:32 PM
Originally Posted By: RedSoxFan
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
[quote=Stronger]
Quote:
More than once, I told my H, "You think you can do better than me? What are you waiting for?" I've said this in more recent days....not in the beginning when I was a scared idiot. Before I found DBing. I wish I had said it to him the first night, but neither here nor there now.


This is a great attitude for an LBS to have. Very appealing. Hope, this is the message you need to get across to your H. Great advice from Stronger.

Assuming the message is delivered with confidence and not anger.

I'm not in this exact situation but I can recall several times when W expressed to me her confidence in herself in different ways like she's a good person, good catch, good mother, forgiven herself and me, etc. Those things really struck me and pulled me in. If they had been delivered in any way other than gently with love and kindness, I would have gone the other direction.


Agreed and good point RSF. Humility, not arrogance is what the LBS will respond to best. Speaking from experience, this is sometimes easier said than done when emotions are running high. smile
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 03:40 PM
For the record, I was lying in bed and he was in a mood to talk, which as you both may know, women have to capitalize in situations like that because they aren't common!

I was pretty calm but more than that, I was serious.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 09:06 PM
Great advice. I'm trying to convince myself too - the thing that keeps me up at night is the fear that he is comparing me - I need to feel enough self-esteem to know I am better, to know I am the prize, like STronger said. I did well this weekend despite his bomb.

We had a perfect family day on Saturday, and we even cuddled with the cat on the couch watching our favorite show. We have never doen that since he left.

When he was explosive a few times, I stayed very calm. I just said "ok" and walked away. He admitted what was underneath it. This is new too.

Yesterday when he came for dinner to be with S, instead of waiting around, hoping he would give me some attention, I psyched myself for a GAL - I asked him (gently and kindly - yes!) if he didn't mind giving S dinner alone so I could go out and exercise. I made sure I looked really good - and he knows when I'm depressed I don't exercise so this showed that I was more important than spending time with him.

The kindness, calmness, and gentleness are also such good advice. You all know how much I want to scream at him and argue about OW - and I'm not.

You get more flies with honey than with vinegar. But my actions and attitude are one that - if he doesn't chose me it is a huge loss to him. I'm taking control. I'm worthy. This is hard work for me. I came from an abusive childhood home where there were emormous problems. I am determined that no longer will I be the one to be hysterical and angry. I will protect myself if and when he is abusive. I will stop blaming his ass****ness for my anger and emotionality. These changes will either lure him back or I will find someone better. Or, I will be happy with myself knowing that just because he doesn't want me, I am still lovable and worthy. I will prove this to him and myself by being the best me I can be.

I'm trying anyway. I'm psyched up today to stay strong.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 09:17 PM
DAng, how to I use the "quotes" feature here people? YOu all are giving me such awesome advice I want to also repsond personally to each.

RSF, I want to know exactly what kind of legal fincancial agreement you and your wife got so I can ask my attourney how to do this.

Stronger and RSF - you are right = I actually have asked him without anger but conifidently = if you want a D, then why don't you file one?/

He had no answer. He admitted he wasn't a hundred percent sure.

Confidence + humility is a winning combo. It shows self respect. I have to know INSIDE MYSELF that if he doesn't want me it's his loss.

BJ - you are totally right - I have an app with my L to sort out my questions and then when I receive these stupid papers I will figure out the best plan. I'm having a hard time waiting this out but I'm not going to do or say anything in response to this dumb idea until I'm armed with the facts. Calling a bluff is a useless, emotionally reactive tactic.

Like STronger said, I "keep ironing and watching Family Guy"
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 09:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Stronger and RSF - you are right = I actually have asked him without anger but conifidently = if you want a D, then why don't you file one?/

I have to know INSIDE MYSELF that if he doesn't want me it's his loss.

Calling a bluff is a useless, emotionally reactive tactic.

Like STronger said, I "keep ironing and watching Family Guy"

I read your words and it makes me feeling stronger in what I'm doing. smile

As for the agreement, its a simple maintenance agreement. One page, it says W will stay in our house with kids and I will pay her $XXXX.XX dollars per month for support. That's it. It's notorized and maintained in W's attorney's office.
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 09:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
DAng, how to I use the "quotes" feature here people?

Just click on the quotes button at the bottom of the post. What browser are you using? Internet Explorer? Firefox?
Posted By: Sara Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/08/09 10:54 PM
first you have to click on reply. You can't just use the box at the bottom of the page.
I love Family Guy!

Perfect prescription.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 12:48 AM
Hope,
I so very proud of you. Right direction for sure.

BUT you need to work on the improvements FOR YOU. If he likes them, that's just a side effect.

For example, I exercise. I do it FOR ME. H yesterday, at a football tailgate, looked around and said to me, in front of people "You're 34 years old. Most of these chicks are 20 somethings...you had a 9 pound baby.....You're hotter than all of them." All I could do was smile. But I exercise for me. I like it and it's good for me and I have horrible heart problems on my father's side of the family. H just benefits. So good for him but really good for ME.

I clean my house. I love it. It's not normal, but when I'm sad or in a bad mood, I love especially. It's therapy for me. H and S both benefit from my OC house cleaning, but again, it's for me.

I play tennis. It gets me out of the house and that's all for me and I can't think of who else benefits, purely for me. It's not a burden on H, but he does have to watch S while I'm playing and truth be told.....I don't care. (And to be honest, he supports me in my tennis 110%, so kudos to him for that.)

I got a lawyer, after I found H had filed. I was scared at first and it was surreal, but my contact with the lawyer was very empowering. H took us to that place and when my lawyer informed H's lawyer I had representation, the change in H was more respectful. Can't explain it but he knew I meant business.

You have to mean business, and you have to mean it for you....not what you hope will be your H's reaction. Do things for you to make you happy....if your H reacts to it well, then good. If he doesn't, it wasn't for him anyways. If you put expectations in his reactions you might be disappointed. A lot. So stop it and think about you.

Besides, is your H thinking about you the way he should be?

Nope.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 03:44 AM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
For example, I exercise. I do it FOR ME. H yesterday, at a football tailgate, looked around and said to me, in front of people "You're 34 years old. Most of these chicks are 20 somethings...you had a 9 pound baby.....You're hotter than all of them."

Quote:
I clean my house. I love it. It's not normal, but when I'm sad or in a bad mood, I love especially. It's therapy for me. H and S both benefit from my OC house cleaning, but again, it's for me.


Hope,

I hope you are as impressed as I am with Stronger's PMA in her posts. I haven't read up on her entire sitch so I don't know what is going on with her dingbat H, but man I gotta tell you I'm getting intrigued here... and I'm trying to fight for my own M! You need to get some of that MOJO yourself and lay it on thick for your H.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 03:45 AM
How do you quote just part of the post? I mean I hit "Quote" and the whole message I was replying to came in the quote.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 04:59 AM
BJ - agreed. STronger rocks.
Posted By: Deep Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 05:00 AM
haha BigJohn (ughs I hate to say that :)) and Stronger has a point.

Back then, I got into serious gymming big time - for ME. It sure beat the drinking and sinking into depression and feeling sorry for yourself route. Even in WAW mode, W could not help but notice - even when she insisted that her A with OM and lack of connection with me had "nothing to do with physical attraction or looks". I liked the distraction, the goals of getting immensely strong and feeling good, the adrenaline rush. When her colleagues and friends did the usual mild flirting at social events, and commented how hot her H was, even asking if they could loan me for hen parties, I knew it unsettled her.

Didn't matter to me, I just liked working towards adding another 10 lbs to my bench press or shaving another minute off my times for distance running.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 05:09 AM
Originally Posted By: RedSoxFan
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
DAng, how to I use the "quotes" feature here people?

Just click on the quotes button at the bottom of the post. What browser are you using? Internet Explorer? Firefox?


I"m using firefox
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 06:54 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
How do you quote just part of the post? I mean I hit "Quote" and the whole message I was replying to came in the quote.



Hope,

I don't think it matters what browser you are using although I am also using Firefox.

Here is how you do it. Click on the "quote" button on the post you want to comment on. This will bring up the entire post which will be bracketed by [quote(and the poster's name)] at the beginning and [/quote] at the end. Simply erase the parts of the post you don't want to comment on and bracket that part of the post that you do want to comment on like this:

[*quote] This is an example of a quote from a post.[/quote]

Note that I had to add an *in front of the word quote at the beginning of the above sentence instead of [quote] so that you could see what I'm talking about- otherwise it would have posted as a quote box like the one you see above. As far as your comments regarding a specific quote, just add them below the quoted text.

To view what your post will look like once posted, hit the "preview post" button. If you are satisfied with your post, click on the "submit" button.

Make sense?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 07:00 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn

Make sense?


THanks!!! I got it!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 07:10 AM
Originally Posted By: Deep
Even in WAW mode, W could not help but notice - even when she insisted that her A with OM and lack of connection with me had "nothing to do with physical attraction or looks". I liked the distraction, the goals of getting immensely strong and feeling good, the adrenaline rush. When her colleagues and friends did the usual mild flirting at social events, and commented how hot her H was, even asking if they could loan me for hen parties, I knew it unsettled her.


Deep,

Got the same thing going in my sitch with the looks and comments from other women and am sensing the same reaction from my W. Despite her wacko behavior, I've been coming to the same conclusion regarding the physical attraction my W has for me. I don't think that is so easy for the WAWs to turn off. In my case, my W goes out of her way not to see me nude, partially nude or even when I'm nicely dressed.

Now that you are back with your W, has she confirmed that those feelings of attraction for you never went away?

P.S.- Sorry for the hijack Hope. Deep has me curious here.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 07:24 AM
IT's fine -= I'm curious too!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 07:28 AM
The bummer is - now that my WAS has left HE has lost weight and looks very hot. I had lost all attraction to him the last few years we were together, and now I am feeling attraction to him again. Damn why are they better looking when running out the door? Wish I had that power over my H.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 12:24 PM
Well BigJohn, I'm going to have to catch up on your thread.

Hope,
He probably does.
my H's OW looked NOTHING like me. We couldn't be more opposite.
Here's a funny story....one of the biggest fights they got into, his friend told me about. OW once asked H's friend and H "Who do you think is more attractive, me or Stronger?" Friend who never really liked her said "Stronger." H hesitated and said "You're both completely different and can't be compared." The safe answer I guess. Friend told me as the conversation progressed she kept pushing. So H seemed annoyed and said "Well, if you think about it, Stronger is more attractive." OW was pissed and wanted H to explain. So he said "Stronger is 10 years older than you, had a 9 pound baby and is still in better shape." Friend said she just stared at H. And then H seemed to get even more irritated. She told him "You're just saying that." He answered, "I said it because it's true. Stronger has worked her ass off, literally and I won't take that from her." Then OW starts in on faces. "Who has a prettier face?" Friend said without hesitation "You are two very different people with different racial backgrounds....I think you're both pretty." Apparently she didn't learn and pushed again, so H said "Stronger."

Friend said she didn't talk to him for more than a week and when she did, it was snide comments like "Go talk to your wife, if she's so hot."

And he did, that was in April. And that's when I noticed he seemed to be making more of an effort with us. Granted, we hit a huge bump in late may, early June, but worked through that too.

Also goes to show you, the OP's show their ugly sides....you just have to let them.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Damn why are they better looking when running out the door? Wish I had that power over my H.


My W has lost weight, changed her clothes, hair, make up etc. Funny thing is that I liked her more before. I have really associated this new look with this new version of her. When I see her all done up as "new her" I really don't like it. I really think that there's a lot of MLC tendancies in her case though.

Are you still feeling stong today? It looks like you and I are starting to get the same attitude of strength at about the same time.
Posted By: Deep Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 03:04 PM
BigJohn: in some ways I can't believe I am answering this smile

During her A, (but before I knew) we had massive, frequent, earth-shattering sex. Of course, later it hurt like hell thinking she was getting off while being hot for another guy. Heck, it's one of the hardest things to come to terms with. And W was brutal in the months after discovery. She told me about the connection with the other guy, how deep the feelings were, the whole WAW script. "Sure, I was ML with you, but it was time spent with him that put me in the mood". Ouch.

I keep in very good shape generally, although not at the intense level of workouts during the WAW days, and she had cited that as one of the things that pushed her away, that I could spend time working out instead of being with her; WAWs would say anything to justify their delusion.

Well, we had our 10th anniversary 2 months after discovery. For the first time, I said "damn the expense" and splurged on an unbelievably elaborate vacation with 2 private villas with a private pool overlooking a heartstopping beach front on the hillside of an exotic tropical island. I mean, it looked like the M was going to be over then, and I thought we might as well go out in style.

We had a bad start as we fought over OM the night before (she was still in WAW with OM mode). To cut a long story short, I could barely walk during those few days. We didn't bother with clothes, and made use of just about every inch of both villas, the pool, the outdoor jacuzzi, the deck beds, you name it. It was crazy. So much for our lost connection, and that special connection with OM.

A memory that did stand out was her watching me walk from the pool after a particlaurly intense episode to get her towel, and she said "hey Deep, remember what I said about you spending too much time working out?" "Yeah?", "Forget it, and don't stop". Months later into recovery, she told me she was being honest when she said she did not think of OM at all during that trip.
(that's not to say this was all peaches and cream, we came down hard from cloud nine when we went home).

So yeah, I think making yourself physically attractive won't hurt. My W always maintained that exteriors don't mean much to her, but I know that right now she likes what she sees and even playfully appreciates it when others comment on it. And yes, although we value the emotional connection a lot more, she's told me it was always easy to get things going due to the attraction part.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 03:35 PM
Stronger - BJ is awesome too. Sorry I keep saying awesome. I'm from California smile

Well I have deduced that she is in his D&D/role playing group. So I am learing about these games. He told me that I made him feel like he was stupid for being into it (in M pre-bomb) because I always dismissed it. I was the kind of person that had a lot of interests, art, acting, etc., and I just said "You do your thing and I'll do mine" I neglected his desire to share more things in our marriage. So here I am trying to show interest. WIth the added benefit that if I'm into these games I'm more competition with the OW.

Also, during M, he never showed any attraction to me physically either. I don't expect it now because I didn't receive that attention when M. It was a big problem. We both felt rejected by the other sexually but he never kissed me hello or goodbye, rarely if ever made moves on me. I shut down because I didn't feel he thought I was attractive. I realize now it has a lot to do with the way he is so nervous around girls and not comfortable with his own sexuality and I secretly hope that if he returns to me this OW has given him some more confidence in bed. I need to be ravished if he comes back. It's been like twice a year and neither of us were happy with it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 03:39 PM
PS It's also why I get scared he won't give her up.

I am grateful however, that he is accountable for his time 95% of the time, so there's not too much going on here. If it was a mad passionate affair, I don't think he'd be here most of the time.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Energizer Bunny


Are you still feeling stong today? It looks like you and I are starting to get the same attitude of strength at about the same time.


I'm so glad to hear that EB! I'm definitely better - I was literally paralyzed the last few days - complete panic attacks. That's mainly gone now, and I'm still keeping my chin up. That's progress. Do I feel like superbabe who can handle anything? No. Do I want to hide from all this crap? Yes. Am I totally confused - one minute feeling he wants me back, one minute feeling he is just being nice to get what he wants from me - one minute loving him, one minute hating him - yes.

But for once in a long while I am dealing with the feelings instead of running away. What is it about distance that makes you see your part in it (once it's too late) - I was so wrapped up in how H hurt me - blaming him, fighting with him for not being passionate with me, not being more emotionally available for me, being a workhorse and not a romantic - and I forgot to see and listen to how I was feeling, he was feeling, and deal with both openly.

I would run off and do theater every night - admittedly an important part of who I am, but I would fantasize about the emotionally open men in the performing arts who seemed more attractive - instead of working on this with my H, I stayed out of the house and in fantasy. I avoided him to avoid my feelings. And this hurt him. He felt rejected. I didn't realize it then, because all I thought about was how hurt I was. And now - god help me if it's not too late to try a relationship where I can be less selfish. That's why when I'm with him I try to be much more understanding of him, more attentive, more appreciative, more selfless. I am opening to him in ways I hadn't in years. Hoping he will open up in response, and if you read my thread, in so many ways he has opened up in new ways - even with all the bluster of OW and Legal Separation - he and I feel good together again, and he's around again - a month ago there was none of this.

So, yeah, there's Hope!

How are you????



It really boils down to a fear of intimacy and I'm still not sure why I had that or how to get out of it - but I need to face it with whomever I end up with.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 05:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Deep
BigJohn: in some ways I can't believe I am answering this smile


Oh, stop! smile You know, before her A, my W was calling me her Big Sexy. I tried breaking that special connection with OM a couple times immediately following discovery with hot sex, but she stopped me cold after the second session because she was thinking about OM not me. I couldn't believe it. W has always told me and everyone else that I'm the most handsome and sexy guy she has ever met then this pig-faced OM ex-BF blimp comes floating along who can do no wrong. I think the whole idea that men aren't nearly as concerned about an EA versus a PA is just wrong, it hurts like hell and is just as bad.

Quote:
A memory that did stand out was her watching me walk from the pool after a particlaurly intense episode to get her towel, and she said "hey Deep, remember what I said about you spending too much time working out?" "Yeah?", "Forget it, and don't stop". Months later into recovery, she told me she was being honest when she said she did not think of OM at all during that trip.


Makes sense. I'm just not buying into the idea that looks don't matter as much to women as they do to men, it's almost all about personality, feelings, etc. Not to say good looking guys should get a pass for being jerks- they shouldn't. But looks matter. And in my sitch, when it comes to me and the OM, the contrast in the looks dept. is major.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 05:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
my H's OW looked NOTHING like me. We couldn't be more opposite.

Quote:
So H seemed annoyed and said "Well, if you think about it, Stronger is more attractive."

Quote:
Then OW starts in on faces. "Who has a prettier face?" Apparently she didn't learn and pushed again, so H said "Stronger."


Stronger, I've got the same problem and I bet you do too Hope. That seems to be a common theme in As, where the wayward S "affairs down". Makes no sense to me since you'd think if you weren't happy with your current sitch you'd want to "upgrade" to another person- in every respect.

Quote:
Also goes to show you, the OP's show their ugly sides....you just have to let them.


Agreed, problem is our WASs are so fogged out that it takes A LOT of ugliness from the OP to make any kind of negative impression. Just considering my own sitch, OM is a complete a$$hole and flip flops on my W between being nice/not so nice, eggs on then threatens my BIL along with a lot of other B.S. and my W is just oblivious to it all- OM walks on water as far as she is concerned.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 06:09 PM
Nope. He doesn't and the best way for her to see it clearly is to keep your mouth shut. She will do the exact opposite and think the exact opposite of anything coming out of your mouth.

You say nothing, she'll see it on her own. Took me a long time to figure that crap out, but my H's OW was screwing with me, sending emails, and text messages but in secret. H was fed up with that crap and then she pulled much much more crap that I couldn't have written it was so bad! But eventually, he saw it for himself. And that's what it's going to have to be for you....W will see it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/09/09 06:32 PM
AGreed. Let's just not bring it up to them. OP gains so much more power when we act all threatened. Let it alone. It's temporary. It's a fantasy. It's fog. And, it's not the real issue between the married couple. It's a distraction, a symptom, and a panacea. The real issues are there lurking under the surface. They are new, that is their main advantage. No baggage. But that won't last. EVeryone has baggage that comes out eventually.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 12:02 AM
BTW I spoke with my lawyer for the first time today. I asked him some questions. He made a suggestion to ask my H for one comprimise. My H went OFF FOR AN HOUR yelling at me and accusing me of everything in the book including trying to screw him, threatening to stop trying to "be fair" and just go straight to filing for D, telling me I have no understanding of how hard he works to earn money, etc. Just went off on everything. I tried and tried to get him to stay calm, I stayed calm. It made no difference. He didn't want to be talking to me, didn't want me to hang up. Didn't want me to ask lawyers these questions, didn't want me to ask him.

I know I did my best - short of getting off the phone. I guess it's pretty clear to me that a D is in my own best interest. It's this kind of treatment that has made my M miserable for me for so long.

No appology. I want one. But all I got was "leave me alone" and "don't be at the house when I come over".

I feel like all the work I did the past month to calm him down, get him to come closer, soften up, and talk to me reasonably has gone out the window. I'm so sad.
We're all still here with you.

I'm sorry your evening went like this. Don't forget though he has been 'done' before. You're still in game. It sounds like you're controlling yourself a lot better now too.

You should be proud of your personal growth.

If you decide you're done it's your decision, but you should still be proud of your changes.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 01:17 AM
He is really stressed about money. I feel so bad because I don't work and he works so hard. Granted I take care of our child and I work part time but it's only about 20% of our income. He thinks I should get a higher paying job.

I can't help but think that all this lawyer stuff is costing extra money - so it's his choice to spend it, and for his other apt. But that's not the way he sees it. I don't know how he sees it. But he is really stressed from running his own business and not taking time off.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 01:21 AM
Quote:
I feel like all the work I did the past month to calm him down, get him to come closer, soften up, and talk to me reasonably has gone out the window. I'm so sad.


Hope, you can't control him.

Quote:
He thinks I should get a higher paying job.


What do YOU think?

This is a time that you have to be alittle selfish and protect yourself. That isn't wrong, it's just being smart.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 02:45 AM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
Nope. He doesn't and the best way for her to see it clearly is to keep your mouth shut. She will do the exact opposite and think the exact opposite of anything coming out of your mouth. You say nothing, she'll see it on her own. Took me a long time to figure that crap out, but my H's OW was screwing with me, sending emails, and text messages but in secret. H was fed up with that crap and then she pulled much much more crap that I couldn't have written it was so bad! But eventually, he saw it for himself. And that's what it's going to have to be for you....W will see it.



Thanks Stronger. You know, I know that instinctively- having 3 sisters of my own- it's just easier said than done! Although my patience has evolved considerably during my sitch it's still painfully hard to wait for my W to figure out the obvious!

Unfortunately, OM is too big of a wuss to even contact me electronically- he likes to hide behind my W's skirt and criticize me in his conversations with her- then I get to hear about it third hand from either my W or my BIL.

Here we go again hijacking Hope's thread. Sorry Hope. Hey Stronger, why don't you drop on by my thread sometime? Appreciate the feedback. smile
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 02:47 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
AGreed. Let's just not bring it up to them. OP gains so much more power when we act all threatened. Let it alone. It's temporary. It's a fantasy. It's fog. And, it's not the real issue between the married couple. It's a distraction, a symptom, and a panacea. The real issues are there lurking under the surface. They are new, that is their main advantage. No baggage. But that won't last. EVeryone has baggage that comes out eventually.


Great points Hope. Hang in there. Things will get better.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 04:12 AM
I'm ok with the hijack. I watch your posts anyhow. I always learn from others' sitches.

I have no idea what kind of higher paying job I could have - especially part time iwth a little one. I like my life but he thinks I could consult on all kinds of things - I just don't know.

I can't help but feel like - hey, H moved out, H wants the lawyers - now he comes home and yells at ME for all the extra money this costs? Where is the responsibility for his part in getting us here too. I've been doing well doing my changes, taking responsiblity for my part in our problems, he is the one frankly who is hiding out and continuing the same old pattern of blow ups and blame.

Sigh. I want him home. I don't want all these thousands of dollars taken out of our savings. But this is his choice - so why the hell is he yelling at me? The way things were before, we could afford our lifestyle. This is just crazy. Help!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 04:15 AM
GIMA, EB, thank you for your support. You're right - thinking of me is critical now. I'm so worried about him all the time.

And I should be proud of my personal growth. You are right. Thanks everyone.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 12:43 PM
He sounds like he's at the end of his rope.
Are you sure he even has a lawyer?

I think it's time to 180 your butt off here.
Posted By: hhh Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 04:00 PM
Hi Hope,
Just wanted to check in and say hello. Only thing you can do here is come out of this a better person either way. You sound a lot stronger than you think. Thanks for posting to me awhile back, I remember what you said about lying in bed and crying for a few days and then letting the reality of it hitting you and that you will be OK. My situation has gotten to that stage where H is really pushing for D/signing papers, and I do't think there's anything I can do to convince. I think my M is over. It's really hard, as you know, but all we can do is survive, carry on, and try to better ourselves in the process.

Take care of yourself, most of all.
-hhh
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 04:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
He sounds like he's at the end of his rope.
Are you sure he even has a lawyer?

I think it's time to 180 your butt off here.


Oh yeah, he has a lawyer.

What do you mean "End of his rope" and which 180s are you referring to.

I did all my 180s yesterday in terms of staying calm, not reacting, and having compassion for his stress. Usually I would have blown my lid right back and he could have blamed me for everything. He eventually did appologize last night.

After a brutal day of yelling at me and S.

Please, STronger remind me of what you think I should do here - your advice has been a lifeline to me. THanks!
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 06:14 PM
Hope,
Please take my advice with a grain of salt and understand, I am not there and your gut instinct is better than my advice. Ok?

But for what it's worth, yes, you need to back bone up too. It's hard, I get that. It took me a little bit to do it myself I was so shocked when this first started and went spinning when I found out about OW.

I did it in increments. The first time was by accident. That was in January when he was sooooo sure this little idiot 23 year old was going to be with him and they were going to ride off into the sunset. He says to me, "I wish you would find someone to take care of you so I don't have to worry about it anymore." I was so shocked and so pissed, I could only laugh. His perception of it was "Eff you" and that turned out to be a good thing. What I did really say was "Be careful what you wish for." His stupid comments really tappered off then, from about 10 a week to about 3 to 5, depending on the week. (Sort of funny to think about it now.)

That was small.

Then in February he pissed me off to no end and this was after his perfect OW went and found herself a younger, richer and taller new boyfriend. I told him, "I'm moving out." He tried to stop me, I held firm. I moved in with a friend, a wonderful friend who took me and S into her home for about 4 months. H was forced to move back into the house. That first weekend after I moved out, he opened up for the first time about specifics as to why he was unhappy, not just "I'm unhappy." I got examples and actual incidents that I remembered but didn't register as important in my eyes, but very important in his. It was a great insightful conversation.

You need to think of ways and places where you want to assert yourself. You cannot run scared. Who was the woman he fell in love with? How would she handle this situation?

I would start with contacting some friends who know the situation, friends you really trust who are not going to start in with the "leave him, why are you dealing with this?" and let them know, any time of day, you may just show up. I have about 4 friends here who I could have done that with and in couple of situations, I did. When he starts in with the yelling and screaming and you can't stop him by being calm, leave. I know you want to stay there. I know you still think you can "talk" to him, but you can't. Not now. But if you do this enough, if you walk out of the house, he'll catch on. "Ok, I yell, she leaves.....end game....stop yelling at her."

I know it's going to be hard for you to do this, but I think that is where you are. And this is what I mean by "end of his rope". He's gone off the deep end and has thrown all logical thinking out of the window. Guilt? Maybe. Guilt because he knows he's in the wrong here. Frustration, stress, etc? Probably mixed in there too. But for whatever the reason, it doesn't matter. Just go. Send a clear message: "I won't be spoken to this way. I am your partner in life and the mother of your child. You do have the power to take away the partner in life status, but you will never take away the fact I am the mother of your child and I will be damned if any man, especially you, speaks to me like this anymore. You've met your quota for yelling at me for a whole life time and then some. No more."

My H used to throw D out there, like it was a threat. "We just need to end this, simply and friendly like." He would email it. He would say it. I put my foot down, face to face. "The next time you say D or you email it, you better be prepared to follow through. I will not be threatened. I am not scared." I did not yell. I whispered. (Something I learned from my therapist) And the fact I was dead serious impacted him. I know this because he hasn't said or emailed it since. I will admit, later on when heads were more cool, I did tell him D is not my preference, but I am going to have a new life. You need to decide if you want to be in it or not. (I wish I could thank him for not saying D since that conversation but I don't know that that's possible without bad feelings brewing. So I leave it alone, but I'm appreciative.)

Any-hoo. Is that long enough for you?

Backbone up. Not all at once like a tidal wave, but in increments.

He will keep doing this to you. And why not? You're letting him. You are at a point where you need to do or die.

Your specific 180 is to stand up for you.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 08:20 PM
Ok the walk- away and the back up plan with a girl friend. Great advice. The wispering to show dead seriousness I've been doing that too.

We had our first open conversation about somthing that I did that hurt him too - not just "You hurt me and I won't take it any more" It was a huge milestone. Just last weekend. Perhaps this is backlash.

I've done my 180's in terms of not screaming back, not fighting, staying calm - those are huge steps for me and I hope he sees my changes. Now I see I will have to step it up a notch - for me, not to show him changes. I just will not be around him when he's in that mode. I will learn to protect myself. I will.

BTW I stayed calm last night and showed compassion for his stress instead of fighting. That's when he turned around and appologized. He also was very calm with me today. Baby steps.

If we can get to this place of talking about the actual hurts - the things he and I did that we didn't realize we were doing that hurt each other and got us to this point, I think we'll be getting somewhere. I need him to find that place and as long as I am letting him stay in rage/blame mode, we won't get there.

Love, compassion, and the walkout. These are my tools.

THX STronger as always.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/10/09 10:31 PM
PS OK, maybe I'm hallucinating here
I just found my wedding ring. It has been missing for over a year, and as you all know my husband has a huge temper so I was terrified to tell him. I ordered another one.

Needless to say, my H found out I bought a new ring and got furious anyhow.

But I just found the original one. I think this is a sign. I lost the ring back when I was the one crying to my friends every night that I was unhappy in my marriage and I was fantasizing about the emotional men in the theatre. It was when my S started school. I started realizing I was so upset about our M. And I lost my ring.

I was rearranging my bedroom for the new me - and lo and behold there it was.

Now I am too scared to tell my H that I found it lest I trigger his anger at lying about buying a new one. But, I am so glad I rediscovered my ring. I hope I can rediscover my M as well.

Today, trying to detach and handle the anxiety that being alone brings. Staying out of his way since he is in anger mode. Trying to love him from afar, and believe we can have a new and better M even with yesterday as such a horrible setback. God this is such a long haul.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/11/09 01:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I can't help but feel like - hey, H moved out, H wants the lawyers - now he comes home and yells at ME for all the extra money this costs? Where is the responsibility for his part in getting us here too. I've been doing well doing my changes, taking responsiblity for my part in our problems, he is the one frankly who is hiding out and continuing the same old pattern of blow ups and blame.

Sigh. I want him home. I don't want all these thousands of dollars taken out of our savings. But this is his choice - so why the hell is he yelling at me? The way things were before, we could afford our lifestyle. This is just crazy. Help!


Personal accountability seems to be an early casualty for these WASs. My W has never accepted ANY accountability for her part in the breakdown of our MR. But when you think about it, it really isn't that surprising, since accepting personal accountability would inevitably lead to feelings of guilt which in turn would take the fun and excitement out of the "fantasy" A.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/11/09 05:05 AM
This idea of lack of responsibility goes back before OW - H has a habit, as does his whole family I might add - of an attitude of "they are doing this to screw me" "it's everyone else's fault" etc.

Now I am finally taking responsibility for things I should have seen a year ago or more in my own behavior, thoughts, attitudes, emotions. But H not only has WAS syndrome, he has the added stubborness and poor-me-ness of his character.

He came back from therapy today and said that he wants to fire his therapist. I have a feeling his C must have confronted him on his behavior yesterday - H told me C said he has to be able to talk to me about the legal sep issues or else lawyers will do it at a high cost. I have a feeling H was being told keep your cool and that H didn't like that he couldn't blame me?

So I did my 180-- instead of freaking out like I wanted to about him quitting IC (like if he quits then there's never any hope H will see his side of things), I just said, "Yeah, a lot of therapists suck". What can I do. Can't control him.

Wanted to "show H I wasn't going to be treated badly" today by kinda blacking out - but when I came home tonight he was 1) here - and those nights are too few for me to take for granted and 2) he was nice again. Maybe I'm just a sucker. I drink in the pleasant times together. Gives me hope for the future. Maybe I should just close myself off in my room and be mysterious, protect myself in case he decides to go off again. If only I had the strength to make him miss me.

But I am just someone who wants to have good times with him to show him my changes, so H can experience things being different, etc.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/11/09 12:15 PM
You did nothing wrong....why do I get the sense you feel like you did?

There are many different ways to go about this and that stragety may change day to day.

If he's there and being nice, enjoy the interaction. Only a crazy person wouldn't want to enjoy a nice quiet time with loved ones....so no worries. And yes, that's an opportunity to show him life can be a partnership where things are nice and calm.

You have ZERO idea of what happened between him and the therapist so don't worry about it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/11/09 06:17 PM
Im panicking here. Went to IC yesterday and C reminded me I'm building up trust with H that things can and are different with me. I blew that big time today and now I'm off on "I'm going to lose him forever" mode.

Because he appologized and said how stressed out he is (and acknowledged that he has to hold it together better around me and S) I offered to get up with S today. I told him that is something I can do to lighten his load. H like this and seemed to open up to me more last night, softening more, getting closer. Then S got up early and went to H this morning. Because I forgot I had left S window open (it was very hot last night) and I forgot to set alarm to get up with S and keep him quiet.

H was good in that he didn't yell at me. H told me this is exactly his problem with me - I say things and don't follow through. This is his whole argument for having no MC (H can't believe it will be different this time just because I say so) and for the Sep agreement (things won't be different so H has to be prepared).

I have all these things hanging over my head. H said he feels stupid for trusging me again because I can't follow through on my word. It's not about getting up with S. It's th eimplication for whole marriage.

I'm so depressed today and feel like we are back to square one and that H won't trust me again. I feel just awful. I feel scared. I feel mad at myself because I know things will change but I have a small window to prove it and I blew it.

Help!

That said, I also know I should have stood up to H the other day way more. I know I should have hung up the phone once he started yelling. I also blew that one. But that is my own work and is for me, not to get him back.

I know I have to stand up to him more. What I don't know is how to get him to trust me again when the whole thing goes out the window over something. I think I'll go dark this weekend?
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/11/09 07:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv

But that is my own work and is for me, not to get him back.


You don't really believe this and you are not living it.

EVERYTHING you do right now is to please him. EVERYTHING.

You have not done one single thing to make you happy or to make the improvements you want to see in yourself for yourself. EVERYTHING you are doing, you are hoping will impact him, not you.

The more you do this, the more disappointed you will be, the more disappointed you are, the more it will show, the more it shows, the more he reacts in a negative manner to you, the more negative he is, the harder you work to please him, and then it all starts again. It's crazy.

He's going to do whatever he wants. He is not thinking about the impact any of his BS has on you.

RIGHT NOW Hope, please sit down, write down things you want to do for you. I don't care if it's skydiving or volunteering at the animal shelter to taking a cooking class to exercising to doing puzzles at home. Whatever you want. Make a list, RIGHT NOW.

Then, make a list of things you want to improve about yourself. For me, it was my temper. I got a HOT one. And I can be mean and vindictive. H pointed that out to me. And he's right. I've worked on it and I'm no where near where I would like to be with that but I'm working on it. I'm have no patience, not naturally but now I'm better. And I don't care what my H thinks on those fronts, STRONGER is the judge. What do you want to work on you internally? Make that list too and start working on it. Get therapy, get a book, whatever, work on it FOR YOU.

YOU CAN NOT LIVE FOR HIM. It will kill you if you try.

I recently told my H "I am not responsible for you happiness. So if you are around trying to see if Stronger can make you happy, you're going to be disappointed. I want you to know, I'm not even trying to do that." He looked at me sort of confused I guess, which in turn surprised me. I followed up with "Sports can't make you happy, work can't make you happy, S can't make you happy and neither can I. You can enjoy these things but ultimately, YOU make YOU happy. Nothing and no one else."
I further told him "I'm aware that I've done things that have mad you unhappy and I'm sorry about that and I'm working on somethings, but that's for me. If you benefit, great, but you aren't the target here, I am for me."

Then he understood where I was coming from.

Do you understand?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/11/09 07:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
You did nothing wrong....why do I get the sense you feel like you did?

I always feel like I do something wrong. If I hadn't I would not have lost him.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/11/09 07:33 PM
That doesn't answer my need to prove to him I am trustworthy. We have this cycle - he has a temper, I'm afraid so I lie or hide things to avoid his temper, he find out and blows up even more and blames me. I can't control his part in this cycle. But my lying is a coping mechanism from childhood that is wrong. He still needs to see that I am changing my part in it. He has to see the changes.

As for doing stuff for me, that also got m ein this mess. I was doing theatre for the past three years which meant being gone most evenings and weekend. My husband tried to tell me this wasn't working for him and I blew him off becuase I figured, hey, I'm home with a baby all day. I go out when you are off work, not abandoning my job as mother. I need to do this for me.

but I didn't hear his needs. I am taking this time to show him i can be selfless. I can care about his needs. He doesn't believe I do - from his childhood yes. But also from my behavior. Doing a bunch of stuff for me just shows being selfish. I don't know how that can help the marriage.

But I do overdo it on the need to please syndrome. I don't know how to not be hard on myself. That's one thing. I am also working on my temper. That's another. I've given up theatre and don't know what else right now I want to do. It's a void. I guess I love sewing. I love nature. i feel guilty enjoying these things when my H is so stressed out. But you are right I need to find a way not to constantly want to please him. God this is hard.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/11/09 07:43 PM
Hope,
You have to change your thinking.
When he said the theater wasn't working out for him, you should have cut back. You've done that now. If he doesn't see it or doesn't want to give you credit for it, nothing you can do.

You're too old to be a liar.

Yes, when you say you are going to do something, do it. Trust is built in very small increments, slowly but surely.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/11/09 08:35 PM
That's my only point here STronger - and yes you are right on all accounts here and I hear you. But my point was, I'm trying to do what I say I will do to build trust. I said I would get up with S and I failed to make sure that happened. I had the intentions of doing it, but I didn't follow through on all the "what ifs" to make sure I could keep my word.

And so the trust building took a back step. Adn I'm worried. You know what I mean. My question is more, what to do when the trust building takes a step back?
Posted By: ginab1966 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/11/09 08:59 PM
Hi:

I just read a few of your last posts and the lying thing is...WAS me to a tee. My husband didnt' like certain aspects of my life. I didn't want to change, so I hid those things from him and didn't tell him. When confonted, I'd lie every time, get caught and he would be so mad..ENRAGED. The lying, the changing yourself so that you are what everyone wants you to be so no one is unhappy with you, the self hatered? I found very good way to change those things about me. It's called CoDepencance anonymous. I realize that I am addicted to others. I am emmeshed in their lives and cannot detach enough to see who I am, who they are, what I want. Do you see how hard it is to even write what you want when Stronger asks you too? You quit something that you enjoyed because it made others upset. That isn't healthy by any stretch of the imagination. The bottom line is taht your H seems like a pretty unhappy fellow. Personally, I don't think much of that has anything to do with you but you've chosen to take it on as a task to make him happy. Listen to Stronger...you cannot make him happy. Only he can make him happy. Of course you can do things that celebrate him or help make the road you are both on smoother..but bending over backwards and inside out isn't going to help.

Please check out the CoDA website. Just look at what they say and see if what they say makes sense. Heck, what have you got to lose...right?

Take good care of yourself....of YOURself...of yourSELF. Get it???? Hugs to you..

Gina B
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/11/09 11:10 PM
THanks - I'm in a branch of that group "Love Addicts Annonymous" it's the same deal - how we throw ourselves away just to get love from someone else. I just started the group a month agao - have a long way to go.


and per your advice ladies, I'm going to pull out my guitar and start playing tonight. Learning guitar is something I want to do - for ME> nTHanks so much.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/12/09 04:26 AM
Quote:
This idea of lack of responsibility goes back before OW - H has a habit, as does his whole family I might add - of an attitude of "they are doing this to screw me" "it's everyone else's fault" etc.

Now I am finally taking responsibility for things I should have seen a year ago or more in my own behavior, thoughts, attitudes, emotions. But H not only has WAS syndrome, he has the added stubborness and poor-me-ness of his character.


Hope,

These are traits I see in my W- not a good combination. They certainly make our jobs as LBSs much more difficult.

You are getting some great advice as usual from Stronger. When you make the changes you need to make for you- and not for someone else- that's the catalyst that makes everything fall into place.

Keep your chin up!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/12/09 04:51 AM
Baby steps: He tells me his disappointment clearly and calmly without explosion this morning. although I go into my usual panic mode, THIS IS HUGE PEOPLE!!!

He comes home for dinner starts down a bad path – criticizing me for not disciplining S enough, for offering coffee when there was none (making him late) - He says”Why do I bother to come over here” I defend us saying “Because he’s your son and he’s been like this constantly. It’s not just that I don’t discipline him - I discipline him constantly” and he says “See I shouldh’t trust you - you said there was coffee and now I don’t have time to get any before I leave tonight” and I said, “I told you I made coffee earlier. IF the cleaners dumped the coffee how would I know. That doesn’t mean I’m untrustworthy.” Teeny-tiny backbone?

Basically , he saw I was on his side disciplining S and he calmed down and talked to me. I just don’t trust him to stay calm. That is the problem. Here I am doing all this listening and validating and staying calm and he’s so unpredictable and moody. I’m doing all the work and listening to his crap. I wish I could walk away and tune him out when he’s so mean. My IC says he’s terrified and needs to learn to trust. So I keep trying but I'm tired.

I called H (he had left) when S was still freaking out about wanting candy instead of dinner and it went on for 30 minutes. H stayed on the phone with me and helped me through it. H didn’t criticize my parenting, he just helped me. It felt really supportive. AndI”m so paranoid this mystery girl is at his game tonight – but he was so open about where the game is, and what was going on. He didn't seem secretive at all.

It’s been working that I show interest in his life – his sci-fi shows, his role playing games, his computer stuff. It matters a lot to him. It shows I’m not as selfish as I once was. I try to really be open where I was closed. I just wanted us to do our own things before, this hurt him. He wanted to share more things. I’m trying.

It’s just the mean thing. And he’s telling his family this week that we’re separated. If he thought we’d get back together he wouldn’t be doing that. It’s so up and down. He said it's because he's just not a good liar and doesnt want to hide it. I told him "do what you need to do for yourself. Just don't paint a one-sided picture that makes me look like the bad guy." I'm feeling really scared about what my inlaws think but why should I. They have always been extremely distant - rarely taking part in our S's life, let alone ours,- and they are incredibly self-centered. It doesn't really matter what they think.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/12/09 04:55 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn

Hope,

These are traits I see in my W- not a good combination. They certainly make our jobs as LBSs much more difficult.

You are getting some great advice as usual from Stronger. When you make the changes you need to make for you- and not for someone else- that's the catalyst that makes everything fall into place.

Keep your chin up!

THank you BJ. Yeah I have a realllllllly hard time with the stubborn, they're all out to get me, it's not my fault crap. It just doesn't register. I do the opposite. I always blame myself. I don't see short of dumping him what will make him see his immature attitude. But we can't make them see it. THey have to see it on their own.

Hang in there BJ.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/13/09 12:16 AM
Hope,
Yes, you screwed up with the not waking up thing. But you know what, Sister? I think someone should give you some effing credit here and an effing break. If your H won't, they you should give it to yourself. Want to know why? Do you want to know why you over slept? BECAUSE YOU ARE TIRED AND WORE OUT TOO!!

Your H is stressed at work? Really? You're not stressed at home?

Your S sounds like a handful. If your H has a better idea as to how to raise him then he needs to chime in and he needs to be there as much as possible. Otherwise, shut up. If he doesn't like the way things are going with S, then step up and he can try to tell a small child what to do. Small children are the most beautiful things in the world and they mean everything. HOWEVER, no one, not even my H can frustrate me faster than my 3 year old. No small child is easy. It takes sooooooo much to raise a person. I admire every stay at home mother and consider them to be the hardest working women I know. So if you won't do it, or you H won't do it, I will.

HOPE YOU ARE A DAMN GOOD WOMAN. YOU ARE A DAMN GOOD MOTHER.

At 34 I know this to be true because I've tested it time and time again: People aren't necessarily going to treat you the way you treat them. But people can will treat you the way you LET them.

Yeah, I guess you screwed up with the coffee, and the waking up. To the coffee, big deal. Get over it big boy.

Now, baby sets. Say what you're going to do and follow through.

Tell you what, my H ever asked me "Why do I come over here?" my response would be simple: "Because I'm here. And I'm worth the trip."
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/13/09 04:08 AM
thank you STronger. WHy is it so hard to believe this? Why do I put myself down so much? Why is it if I don't hear that I'm worth coming over for, I don't believe I'm worth coming over for?

Yeah< H has a lot of good ideas on "how" to discipline S but I'm the one doing it 90% of the time. Don't get me wrong, H is a very involved father. Just that since he decided to run off, I'm doing a lot.

Guess what -= a month ago, H would have told me "See you never change" and stormed out. The other morning, he calmly communicated that this is the issue and he didn't run off. He came back. He b***tched and moaned today while we had "family day" but you know what? When we got home, H talked to me calmly again. Not the constant nitpicking and screaming and storming out of a month ago. He admitted his part in why he was stressed out and even said it wasn't me. That is a miracle, people. It's always someone else in his mind - usually me.

Then I demonstrated my 180's - remember all the crap about him wanting me to be cleaner and do more stuff around the house? I worked on organizing the garage and did some heavy yardwork - while he was here playing with S so he could see me!!!! He's not running away as much - he's coming back after arguments and owning up - and I keep reminding him how much I've changed in the not-blowing-my-temper catagory and he admitted he noticed.

I'm so impatient - he's not fully back and god I want him - he still lives somewhere else and swears there's an OW - although I don't see her ! Remember the Brady Bunch - when Jan made up that she had a boyfriend so that people would think she was desirable enough to have a bf? I call H's OW "George Glass" b'c he is accountable for himself 99% of the time.

Anyhow. Remember I said the other night when we talked for four hours H actually opened up to one thing that I did that hurt him a long time ago? Well this thing happened at the Rennaisance Faire. So today he brings up he wants to go to the Rennaisance Faire - emphasizing that I'm not invited because I humiliated him in public last year there. He swears George Glass won't be going - and offers to be up front about who is going with him. But rubs my face in it that I"m not invited.

So all my changes - he hasn't noticed that much.

And, although he swears no OW is going - he boasts "now that we are separated I have every right to go with who I want and spend whatever money I want." Now why does he need to strut this independance at the very time he is back and acting more like my H than he has in six months?

I guess I have to "Keep ironing and watching family guy" - just seem to hardly notice that he's going to the RF without me. But it gets my goat - I guess that is why he's doing it? I have no idea. Advice people?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/13/09 04:13 AM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
Hope,
Yes, you screwed up with the not waking up thing. But you know what, Sister? I think someone should give you some effing credit here and an effing break. If your H won't, they you should give it to yourself. Want to know why? Do you want to know why you over slept? BECAUSE YOU ARE TIRED AND WORE OUT TOO!!

Your H is stressed at work? Really? You're not stressed at home?


THank you - being a stay-at-home-mom, I forget how this is work. I mean it is work for me, but I always feel so lucky to not be working (well I have a small pt job, but only while S is in preschool). I get time off when S is at preschool, so I forget that even though I am working around the house this is still work. And unpaid mind you.

Yeah, giving myself an effing break. Great idea. Now how do I do that again? lol

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for the positive feedback, I really needed to hear it today and especially from another mom. laugh
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/13/09 07:42 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I'm so impatient - he's not fully back and god I want him - he still lives somewhere else and swears there's an OW - although I don't see her ! Remember the Brady Bunch - when Jan made up that she had a boyfriend so that people would think she was desirable enough to have a bf? I call H's OW "George Glass" b'c he is accountable for himself 99% of the time.

Quote:
He swears George Glass won't be going - and offers to be up front about who is going with him. But rubs my face in it that I"m not invited.

Quote:
And, although he swears no OW is going - he boasts "now that we are separated I have every right to go with who I want and spend whatever money I want." Now why does he need to strut this independance at the very time he is back and acting more like my H than he has in six months?
I guess I have to "Keep ironing and watching family guy" - just seem to hardly notice that he's going to the RF without me. But it gets my goat - I guess that is why he's doing it? I have no idea. Advice people?


Hope,

I think you may be on to something. As a very confident man myself, I would never find the need to "announce" to anyone- including to my W whom I'm separated from (not me, him) -that I'm romantically involved with another W. Your H is motivated by a lack of confidence in himself and probably the sitch he finds himself in. There may or may not actually be OW- it's possible that your H is pulling your leg in order to gain some advantage over you and/or control (in his mind at least) over the sitch. Even if there is an OW, why wouldn't he want to take her to the RF? That part doesn't quite make sense.

I'm curious- what would happen if you went on a (friend) date with another guy to the RF yourself?
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/13/09 05:01 PM
Hope,
Legally speaking, your H is DEAD WRONG. He can NOT date other women. It's marital misconduct. Until he files he's still married. And if you can prove he's spending money on another woman....that's big trouble for him. Big trouble.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/13/09 06:55 PM
Well I slept with someone else in the past - didn't date, but he could bring the same thing up against me.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/14/09 01:39 AM
Had "family day" - H was super stressed but trying in his own way not to take it out on me - still brought me down, but no yelling. Just trying to get through and be glad he's here.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/14/09 06:50 AM
Had a big talk - he still maintains I've "said I'm changing before and I didn't" and that "he doesn't trust the changes will be for real" but for the first time ever when I asked "well how will you know I've changed if you are not even willing to trust the changes you see" he admitted that his IC told him he may know in his gut. He is a very intellectual nerd type guy so he looks at "odds" that I will change and says they don't look good. But he admitted his IC may be right - that he will know in his gut and will be able to trust it.

That is a change, people.

And, he and I talked a tad bit more openly about our sexual problems. Before he wouldn't even talk about them. He just said nothing will change and shut down. BUt he opened up and said that there have been problems from the beginning - again with the "if they haven't changed in eight years, they never will" but with an openness to question what it might look like were we to work through these problems - theoretically, of course.

It's not much. It's not hte big romantic running back to my arms and swearing undying love and committment to me but it's baby steps. It gives me a tiny little wee ray of hope after quite a dark day.
Posted By: Lost Rabbit Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/14/09 09:07 AM
Baby steps are good Hope! I expect my H is wondering if my changes are either "good changes" or "revenge" at the moment, I have spent twenty eight years telling him "I wont accept used goods back" and "I'd take him to the cleaners" only in jest mind you, but with serious under tones, and now hes left Im not doing it, although I always believed I would if that makes sense. Im doing NC at the moment, he phones about once a week, gets minimal info outta me and I dont want to know anything about him (my biggest 180). But bearing in mind he (and your H) has changed completely they cant say we cant/wont after all these years.. The good thing about a bomb is that it destroys every thing so its an opportune time to rebuild from scratch and of course CHANGE!
I'd say that sounds like positive movement. Keep us posted!
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/14/09 01:01 PM
Hope,

That could be a good sign. Just be careful that you are not the one bringing up the discussion about your changes. He won't believe them if you tell him what you have changed. He will only believe them if you show him you've changed by living the changes.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/14/09 03:16 PM
Hope,

I second what GIMA said, those little steps could be a good sign. Don't under any circumstances try to point out to your H the positive changes you have made. For that matter, don't do any thinking on his behalf (something I've had to learn the hard way in my own sitch). Let him come to his own conclusions about things.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/14/09 06:31 PM
Yes, folks, true. I haven't gotten too much into my changes but I did feel the need to say that I hope he sees them. I didn't itemizes them but my fear is that even though I am changing H doesn't trust it or want to see it. He justifies them away. Meanwhile, he's having legal papers written up and I'm losing time.

How can I make sure he trusts what changes he sees? He says he really doesn't trust himself - because he felt like he "believed me before when I said I'd change" and ultimately things did not change. He feels stupid for trusting me so the issue is he doesn't even want to trust what's in front of his face for fear of "being duped again".
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/14/09 06:54 PM
Quote:
How can I make sure he trusts what changes he sees? He says he really doesn't trust himself - because he felt like he "believed me before when I said I'd change" and ultimately things did not change. He feels stupid for trusting me so the issue is he doesn't even want to trust what's in front of his face for fear of "being duped again".


You can't make him do anything. All you can do is make the changes in you, and live them. This will take time.

One important thig is that you have to make the changes for YOU, and not because you want to influence him. He will see through it if you are only doing it for him.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/14/09 11:39 PM
I'm trying! I realize I have a major problem doing things just for me - esp. when I focus on many things I have done wrong in my M in the past. I guess I want to be able to show him a new way of relating to him, and that will take time. Meanwhile, I am struggling to forgive myself for my past wrongs and it's hard. I royally screwed things up and didn't really get it until I almost lost him. How do I ever forgive myself for that? How do I care for myself when I'm so mad at myself? I guess this is my big growth lesson.

And my IC today reminded me that no matter what H says, he IS showing up here a lot. He is talking more openly. He is spending family time. This is huge progress from a month ago when we rarely talked and when we did, we fought! He hasn't filed for D yet....etc.

And yet, I need to be ok no matter what. I know this. It's as hard for me as it is for any of us on this board.

I know you are all right though in telling me this weekend that I need to do these things for me - not checking over my shoulder constantly to see if H recognizes.

Figuring out what I want and need - drawing boundaries - doing things for myself no matter what H does. And the biggie - forgiving myself for the mistakes in my M.

Thanks everyone. I am making those changes and it feels good.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/15/09 03:38 AM
Crazy up for today = H got his car fender-hit by an old man AND STAYED CALM. I am so impressed that he came over tonight and wasn't screaming at the top of his lungs.

S and I had made pie - we all crashed out together on the couch with full and happy tummies. The way to a man's heart is through his stomach. The way to my H's stomach is through pie.

I'm leary of this high but dare I say I feel happy and content!
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/15/09 03:46 AM
Quote:
I royally screwed things up and didn't really get it until I almost lost him. How do I ever forgive myself for that? How do I care for myself when I'm so mad at myself? I guess this is my big growth lesson.


"Hope, I forgive Hope." You can't change the past.

One of my favorite quotes from here is about forgiveness. And it was that "Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past." Learn from your past, but let it go.

Quote:
And yet, I need to be ok no matter what. I know this. It's as hard for me as it is for any of us on this board.


This is a process and it takes time. You need patience in many areas of your life right now.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/15/09 04:19 AM
THanks GIMA.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/15/09 04:23 AM
High has been killed. I got "Don't bother me."
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/15/09 04:35 AM

Roller coaster...

Don't let him see that it bothers you, hold your head up.
The good parts of the night were still good, be patient.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/15/09 05:14 AM
THanks Bill. I kinda snapped back - shouldn't have - I guess It's back to "I forgive Hope".
He's in back room avoiding me. I need to go to sleep. Kills me to go to sleep after he's bit my head off. I'll hold it high, bitten and all. Thanks Bill.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/15/09 12:45 PM
Hope,

Have you seen this article:

Developing Detachment

I think it would help you get started with detaching.

One thing you should focus on is accepting this truth: You, alone, are responsible for your happiness. Not H, not kids, not dog, not cat. YOU.

If you can truly accept, and live by, this simple truth, your happiness is no longer dependant on your H's moods/comments/actions. Which makes it easier to let H's negative comments roll off your back. I would venture a guess that once he sees he is no longer getting to you with his negative comments, he will stop making them.

Give it a try.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/15/09 07:55 PM
THanks, GIMA. Looks like from your thread that this has been working for you. I definitely need to work on it. Will do.
Posted By: Coach Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/15/09 08:05 PM
Quote:
One thing you should focus on is accepting this truth: You, alone, are responsible for your happiness. Not H, not kids, not dog, not cat. YOU.


My dog would disagree. Phoebe the Wonder Lab was my secret weapon for PMA. smile
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/15/09 09:30 PM
my cats are unconditional lovers too smile
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/15/09 09:35 PM
Quote:
My dog would disagree. Phoebe the Wonder Lab was my secret weapon for PMA.


OK, I stand corrected. My yellow lab and "blassett" (black half lab, half bassett) hound would disagree as well.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/16/09 03:45 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Quote:
I royally screwed things up and didn't really get it until I almost lost him. How do I ever forgive myself for that? How do I care for myself when I'm so mad at myself? I guess this is my big growth lesson.


"Hope, I forgive Hope." You can't change the past.

One of my favorite quotes from here is about forgiveness. And it was that "Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past." Learn from your past, but let it go.

Quote:
And yet, I need to be ok no matter what. I know this. It's as hard for me as it is for any of us on this board.


This is a process and it takes time. You need patience in many areas of your life right now.


Hope,

Early on in my sitch I too struggled with these types of feelings. GIMA hit the nail on the head with the post above. You have to process the mistakes on your part, learn from them, resolve to not make the same mistake twice and then forgive yourself.

BTW, I'm glad to hear you had a good night last night with your H. You are right about the path to a man's heart being through his stomach. That is certainly the case with me! I'm a big pie lover myself too!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/16/09 04:58 AM
Yeah, BJ, then he retreated to his back room and ignored me all night. It was depressing - I kinda thought after the warm pie night we'd sit on the couch and watch a show...

Tonight is his "night off" from our S which means he is at his apt. not here. I never get calls from him on his off nights. He called and I got all excited - only for him to say he needed to come over to get some papers to give the lawyer.

I'm so depressed and sad today! Just like a slug. Don't enjoy most of the time with him,(it's up and down) don't enjoy time alone. I mean I do enjoy time alone, it's just I feel so sad and worried that it's all over and wish he was pursuing me! I've never ever been the one to be pursued. I always pursue until dumped. That's why I'm here. All this detachment stuff and doing for me - it's all new. Healthy, I suppose, but hard. I want my H to come running back and throw his arms around me!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/16/09 05:30 AM
Yeah, he came home and criticized like three things - but at least he did that calmly. And we hugged good bye. Ugh then he went back to his apt. I DO NOT LIKE THIS. I DO NOT LIKE HIM HAVING ANOTHER APT AND I DO NOT LIKE HIM COMING OVER HERE TO GET PAPERS TO FILE LEGAL SEPARATION.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/16/09 05:42 AM
At least I got a hug.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/16/09 05:58 PM
Over the depression. Got up and out early and working on garden. Like my M, feels like a huge overwhelming pile of weeds and thorns that I'll never get through. Must keep at it. *sigh*
I feel your pain, and I am so sorry that you're going through all of this.

I have really been trying to switch my mindset to more of a "it must be horrible to be in her(W's)shoes." It would be horrible to find yourself so unhappy with your life one day. You'd know what you're doing goes against your wedding vows, will break up your family, hurt your children, devistate the spouse that loves you, cost you your home and financial stability. Yet, something is making them feel that they need to go. They're fighting fear of being unhappy forever. They're fighting the feeling that they will never find happiness within their families. They feel that happiness is awaiting them somewhere "out there" and we are in the way.

Then once in a while, just once in a while, they start to miss us. They sniff back around for a few minutes. Maybe it feels good then scares them. Maybe they're so sensitive at this point that a certain tone of voice sets them off.

What a horrible place they are in. Can you imagine?

(With that said...I want to go file myself this week and just be done with her. Hopefully this will pass.)
interesting point bunny. maybe I should consider that.
hi hope4luv - consider the small things and take heart.
It really amazes me sometimes how our S can say ine one breath that I love you but still inflict so much pain.

I know how you feel when those days come. Had one yesterday myself.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/16/09 06:21 PM
EB, man are you a saint? You are right, I've been so self-centered, so angry that I have forgotten how to have empathy for him. I cannot even imagine filing for legal separation or divorce. I assume this makes him feel good, feel powerful, feel hopeful in the fantasy that being rid of me will make him happier. So then I feel resentful. I have a hard time imagining this brings H pain, suffering, loss. I have a hard time imagining my pennywise H would spend one cent on a lawyer if it didn't make him feel good.

That is why H blames me. H does not want to feel the pain of splitting up the family. H does not see himself as responsible for this. H has said to me "I have no choice" and I told him this was all his choice.

It used to be me that fantasized about leaving my H and that it would bring me more happiness. Until he left and I tried dating and I realized how miserable I was that way too. The reality was worse. So, as long as he is projecting the pain onto me, he has the fantasy that D is better.


Empathy - EB I just don't know how right now. Any tips?

I have had empathy for the pain I have caused him. The little boy inside him that has felt demeaned, embarassed, hurt. But when is H going to wake up and see he made me feel the same way? When is he going to take in my regret for my actions? It all seems so unfair. I'm really making changes here and he's not.

But that is where I can find the empathy = to realize that no matter what my perceived injustices were in the marriage, I was hurtful, selfish, immature, and I did promise changes I didn't consistently keep. I did make fun of him and yell at him and throw things. So did he, but that doesn't change my actions. I need to remember and have empathy. Hopefully, someday, I will receive the same empathy.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/16/09 06:22 PM
Originally Posted By: hopingbeyondhope
hi hope4luv - consider the small things and take heart.
It really amazes me sometimes how our S can say ine one breath that I love you but still inflict so much pain.

I know how you feel when those days come. Had one yesterday myself.


People on this board remind me to soak in the good times.

Let's just do that and try not to obsess on the bad. This whole thing is like a plant. We have to keep watering it even if we don't see any growth. One day, hopefully we shall look back and see a gorgeous huge sunflower radiating in our garden.
Tips? I would be a hipocrite to give any. I've having a bad week with that myself. That mindset is the only thing that has given me peace recently.

I think of how much I love/have loved her and how bad she must be feeling to be so unhappy with the life that we have put together that she wants to run away from it.

I know I feel bad, but at least I know I'm doing the right thing. I can look in the mirror, in my son's eyes, at my family, and pray to God without questioning my recent actions. I cannot imagine the inner conflict she must be going through. In the back of her (and his) mind they have a little tiny quiet voice that doesn't really want to do this. Otherwise it would be done. They just have an overshelming feeling...feeling of need to go, to change something. To "go find their happiness."

That must be such a dark place.

Sorry, I don't have any tips besides to just think about it from that perspective.

I even told my W that I can't imagine how she must feel. I told her that I love her enough to let her go if that is what would truly make her happy. I do love her and I want her to be happy.

I just don't think this is the way to get there. I have an image of her "waking up" one day asking herself, "What the hell happened? Why is my husband with someone else? Who is that other woman in my house tucking my S in at night?"

THAT would suck! Especially holding the knowledge that YOU were the one responsible for it. Some people will be able to convince themselves that it's not their fault, but not everyone. How do I know this? My mother did EXACTLY this to our family. 26 years later she still struggles with that guilt. She woke up...it was just too late in her case.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/16/09 06:55 PM
Eb. It is hard. But it's the right perspective. My H is miserable most of the time I see him. This separation is not making him anhy more happy. I can see it. He's angry, bitter, distrusting. He doesn't want to make up and risk trusting me again only to be hurt again. Being angry that he is scared and shut down doesn't encourage him to open up or feel better. Only love and compassion. Being his friend.

And there is always hope as long as there's that little voice in the back of their heads. They have to be the ones to listen to it. If we push, then we take over the voice of wanting to stay together. That strengthens the voice in them that wants to run away. They need to feel completely free to make a decision for themselves. Hopefully they do before it's too late, but they may not. We have to be prepared.
I agree.

The strange thing is watching my W go into her "overly happy" moods. It's really weird. She gets nearly giddy happy. Blasts music, sings, dances around the house, talks for hours on the phone.

As said before though, I think there's some MLC going on in my sitch.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/16/09 07:44 PM
Yeah, my intuition tells me it's less about you and more about her. Maybe you can get her to open up to you about her MLC feelings? It's hard for a woman, I went through it and wish I had shared it with my H because I acted out similarly and it pushed H away - made him feel I was rejecting him. Which I was. But it was really about my MLC.

Think about it that she's not overly happy to be away from you, she's overly happy to counterbalance the deep pain she is in. It's her issue.
I share some of the blame for our sitch. I don't deny that.

I have to wait for her to bring up her issues though. If I tried to initiate that conversation she would be very defensive and make it seem as if I am placing all of the blame on her.

The best times have been when I have just been understanding (better at this than I used to be) when she starts to talk. I just sit and listen with very little feedback.

Good point about her giddy moods. Thanks.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/16/09 08:25 PM
Yeah, I do the same thing. My H is so defensive. But my attitude of listening with compassion seems to help.

I also often start by sharing MY issues and sometimes it encourages him to open up to. AFter a long time. Oh well.

He's still critical of the house, etc, but being more instantly forgiving - I see besides it being about his Felix Unger nature, it's also about that he is not living at home so he feels out of control of "our" house. He's asking me about the household chores more calmly and directly and then gets over it quicker saying "it doesn't matter that much" I hope this is a good sign. My fear is that since he's writing up papers, he is saying to himself "It doesn't matter because I'll soon be outta here and what she does won't matter to me any more". I hope it's not that and it is more that he realizes that his problem with explosiveness and over-criticalness is actually A PROBLEM IN OUR M.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/17/09 12:59 AM
Originally Posted By: Energizer Bunny
I feel your pain, and I am so sorry that you're going through all of this.

I have really been trying to switch my mindset to more of a "it must be horrible to be in her(W's)shoes." It would be horrible to find yourself so unhappy with your life one day. You'd know what you're doing goes against your wedding vows, will break up your family, hurt your children, devistate the spouse that loves you, cost you your home and financial stability. Yet, something is making them feel that they need to go. They're fighting fear of being unhappy forever. They're fighting the feeling that they will never find happiness within their families. They feel that happiness is awaiting them somewhere "out there" and we are in the way.

Then once in a while, just once in a while, they start to miss us. They sniff back around for a few minutes. Maybe it feels good then scares them. Maybe they're so sensitive at this point that a certain tone of voice sets them off.

What a horrible place they are in. Can you imagine?

(With that said...I want to go file myself this week and just be done with her. Hopefully this will pass.)


EB,

You make a good point here. Despite the pain we are all going through, I think we all need to reflect from time to time what our spouses must be thinking and going through.

Good luck to you in your sitch.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/17/09 06:36 AM
Although my H tonight said he will see how MC goes (good sign), he also follwed with how he doesn't think anything can change because he's "traumatized from the past." He claims to have PTSD from me.

Oh please. He gives me PTSD every time he comes home and yells at me.

Which, by the way, he did again - tonight. I started to react and changed my tune. I went to my support group and when I came back he watched a show with me. I cuddled up to him for the first time since the bomb. He complained and said he had to go to bed but said "OK, for a minute". AFter my allotted minute, I tried to kiss him and he pulled away.

I don't deal well with rejection, can you tell? He says some stupid crap about me giving him PTSD and all I want to do is make new memories of love and coziness.

Good news- I got a one minute cuddle. Bad news - I shouldn't be pushing. I should be making him miss me.

Damn, I wanted to give up on DB tonight. After our fight and he just uses it to tell me to get lost and I worry he'll divorce me and then tells me what a traumatizing person I am - then I pursue? WTF is wrong with me? IF someone doesn't want to be with me, why can't I get a clue?

Nevertheless, like you said - if he feels "traumatized" I should have more empathy. I just don't like being blamed for his pain. I could have a lot more empathy if he was struggling with his own demons instead.

Because he had calmed down when I got home, spent time with me calmly talking and watching a show - it felt good. It felt like he wasn't going away. It felt like little by little he was coming back.

Today is the six month anniversary of the bomb. Bad memories for me. And all he can do is talk about HIS pain. And rub it in that he's glad it happened. Why do I put up with this. I wish I was strong enough to stop taking crumbs and being ever available. I do'nt know if I can do this DB stuff.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I do'nt know if I can do this DB stuff.


Maybe you're ready to detach.

I don't see how your hubby can miss you. It sounds like he's there all of the time.

It can take a LONG time for people to get past resentment that has taken years to build up.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
He claims to have PTSD from me.


Sorry, but I'm getting a little chuckle from the image of your hubby hunkered down in a fox hole with one of those protective army helmets, surrounded by sandbags in your living room in the midst of a big arguement with you.

You're hurling anger and insults like grenades. He's firing back with anger and intimidation.

You dodge his shots and fire right back.

This is too much for him. He can't take it anymore. He starts to pray and longs for the days back in his hometown. He misses his childhood dog and wonders how he ever got himself into this war. He tries to escape but fails.

By the time he musters up the courage to flee from the scene, he's frightened but and can see the carnage that surrounds him. Poof. Traumatized. He'll never be the same again.

The smell of perfume, the sight of a makeup bag, the sound of your favorite TV show's theme song. They all send him into a panic after that. They all bring him back to that fox hole in the living room.


OK, so I'm a little dramatic...sounds like he is too
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/17/09 03:38 PM
EB - you are too funny. THANK YOU!!!!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/17/09 05:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Energizer Bunny


Maybe you're ready to detach.

I don't see how your hubby can miss you. It sounds like he's there all of the time.

It can take a LONG time for people to get past resentment that has taken years to build up.





You are right. I've been trying to be around him to demonstrate my changes. Today I'm going to practice withdrawing and giving space. After dinner tonight, when he comes over I am going out. I'm going to exercise, go to the library and work - anything to do something for me.

I won't pressure him for hugs or cuddles or anything else. And I'm doing better at not having long R talks - I need to STOP R talks. No R talks tonight.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I am going out. I'm going to exercise, go to the library and work - anything to do something for me.

I won't pressure him for hugs or cuddles or anything else. And I'm doing better at not having long R talks - I need to STOP R talks. No R talks tonight.


Good for you.

Have fun!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/17/09 08:36 PM
Here's the fear I have with detaching - I'm still going to try it - but here's what happened before.

Over the summer I felt the way I feel now. H was moved out. I was trying to work on my M. My H was not interested. It was before DB, before I made some of the changes and 180's I've done like giving up theatre, showing more interest in his life, staying calm no matter what bait he throws at me, etc. But I felt I was trying the only way I knew how. I was much more on the fence myself. I was tired of his angry outbursts and his coldness. I felt hopeless. I kinda told him "work on this or I'm going to move on." I started dating, I spent time away from him, I lived my life without him. I even told him to start dating.

It didn't work to shock him. It didn't work to pull him back. That was a big mistake because that is when he started making moves to get the legal separation, to date that OW, and he told me he was preparing to move on without me. I realized eventually I didn't like dating or being a single parent any more than being M. We started MC (he left after three sessions) I found DB, made some changes and told him I was wrong and I do want to work on things.

I may or may not ended up exactly where i am today if I hadn't done these things. But I still blame myself for giving up to easily and acting on a separation I wasn't fully prepared for. He got used to being alone and thinking about a future without me and I actually encouraged it.

So I've been intentionally trying to be around when he is home so that I am making the effort to show him I care. He has felt neglected in the past so I'm trying to show him love, care, and interest. I'm trying to have a pleasant R without exploding. I'm trying to demonstrate my changes.

So now how to detach without the fear that this will just let him go again to be resolved to live without me? I have to invest in some time of solid R work to show I'm committed to the long haul.

I was reacting before to my own fantasies that I'd be happier with someone else. Also giving up because H didn't seem to want me and I was not fighting for what I want, I was just giving up.

So I get scared when he wants to be alone or with our S alone or doesn't want to touch me or talk to me. I never felt like this before the bomb. If anything, I was the more distant one. I was the one who was happy for us to just do our own thing - and I let our M suffer by not putting in the time. He felt rejected. He's hurt now.

How do I not give up on our M while also detaching?
Well...there's a story for ya!

I've got nothing. I'm all thought out for the day.

One thing that I know is that this isn't a one size fits all kind of thing. I think the crux (sp) of DBing is to stop doing what doesn't work. What doesn't work for me isn't the same as what doesn't work for you.

My W felt smothered. That didn't work for her/us. I need to do a 180 from that. That may not be the right way to go for you.

I think that making your changes and living them is still key though. Pressing R talk is probably a no no still too.

How to detach without giving up? Well...don't give up. Don't forget about yourself either though. Do your best. Know it's your best. Love your husband. Know you'll be ok no matter how it turns out. You'll know you did your best.

Remember that Stockdale Paradox that you put on my page earlier?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 01:13 AM
Quote:
How do I not give up on our M while also detaching?


Hope, I think you have made the same mistake many people make about detaching. It appears to me that you equate detaching with withdrawing. That's not what detaching is.

Detaching is actually accepting the possibility you will be D'd despite your efforts. And you know you will be ok. You aren't detaching from the other person so much as you are detaching from the eventual outcome.

Detaching is NOT giving a cold shoulder, being withdrawn, being rude, losing love, numbing yourself b/c you do not want to be hurt again, acting out of anger or ignoring another.

Detaching is loving someone enough to let them free to make a decision that may not include you. And being ok with it.

Now, for the hard part. While you are detaching, you are, at the same time changing yourself to make YOU happy. In that way, you become more attractive to your H. Maybe he comes back, maybe not.

So, to answer your question, you detach TO WORK ON the M. Detachment and working on the M are not opposing forces. You can detach (which is really about getting your mind right) and work on your M at the same time.
Hope I would add that there is an excellent book I am reading about codependency and detachment. The book is Co-Dependent no more by Melody Beattie. It may be helpful to read. I am dealing with learning how to detach as well and this has been very helpful to me.

Good luck!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 02:26 AM
Thanks everyone - this is fantastic advice and a lot to digest.

Now I'm off to the library like I said.
Posted By: NoLongerHere Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 04:22 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
So, to answer your question, you detach TO WORK ON the M. Detachment and working on the M are not opposing forces. You can detach (which is really about getting your mind right) and work on your M at the same time.


Hopefully I can articulate this well - but I'm developing the view that what I need to do is provide for my own emotional needs, instead of my marriage or my wife doing that. It's my goal to be OK, regardless, and if my M survives, I can bring that energy to it, instead of taking it from it. Seems that detachment is a response to building your own strength, vs. withdrawing.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 06:38 AM
Bill, That's terrific advice. EB and GIMA too. I'm starting to get the idea. It's living it that will take more time. Thank you so much all of you.

I think I did well with detachment today. I worked in the garden which is incredibly nourishing for me. I went to the library tonight and did my work, and took an evening stroll.

H and I hung out tonight, and he was joking around a lot. He did not yell at me or criticize me about anything> I think a lot had to do with the fact that I had taken care of myself and detached. I just wasn't shaking in my boots and aiming to please tonight. I was prepared to stick to my bottom lines - that I don't want to pursue someone who isn't sure if they want to be with me right now. It feels good.

Thank you all so much. I couldn't do this without you.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 06:47 AM
Hey guys -
DB term question what is "script"?
and guys, I see a lot of advice about how men should act toward WAW - be decisive, strong, etc.

But from a guys' perspective - how to lure back the man? I know what a woman likes from a man, but I have no idea what a man likes. If he wants space - if he is unsure anything will change, if he is hurt from a lot of years past - how to get a guy opening up and trusting and wanting to try again?

Big question, I know -and I know you guys are the LBS like me so maybe you can't answer - but any male perspective is welcome.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 05:36 PM
bump
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 06:12 PM
"Script" usually refers to the long list of things said (or done) by the typical WAS. They call it that because it seems like the WASes are all 'reading from the same script.'

Re: getting your man back vs. getting your wife back. I've struggled with the gender thing, too. Is any of this different when the LBS is female vs. male? I never got any answers!

I haven't ready your whole sitch, but the detaching and doing stuff for you, fulfilling your own emotional needs and not relying on your H or marriage to do so - that's huge. Keep it up.

In my sitch, what worked was to be light, upbeat and casual absolutely as much as possible. And also to make sure I was looking and smelling my best all the time. Act happy even if you're not.

I'll see if I can catch up on your sitch and give more details later!
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 06:30 PM
I think you are very clear in what you are doing and what you want.
You are in a different boat than many here in that your children are adults. I think it was a call for you to make to tell your son or not depending on the relationship you have with him. It sounds as if you are close to each other.
Do get a lawyer.
Oh, and her telling you she’d take you to the cleaners…..that’s a common misconception women have. I have a male co-worker. His wife cheated on him, walk into their divorce with that attitude and walk away with nada after he had very little problem proving he wanted to reconcile AND she cheated him.
Courts are also more prone toward equal time between parents, no matter what the parents want. It’s come to light, that is better for the kids. A lot has changed in terms of divorce and the once upon a time assumed outcome.
I can’t believe the gaul…..she cheats on you and wants to threaten you about telling the truth about her cheating ways?
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 06:39 PM
Uh oh... I think I just goofed on whether Hope is the H or the W.

Apologies for the gender bending!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 07:01 PM
Dia = thanks! So script might go something like this?...
"I've been hurt for so many years, I don't think anything will change, I can't trust you anymore"

I like your advice on staying light, upbeat, and casual - keeps the pressure off.

For H, also having the house clean, organized, etc is huge. It demonstrates that I have honored his feelings
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 07:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Dia
Uh oh... I think I just goofed on whether Hope is the H or the W.

Apologies for the gender bending!


I am the W - my H is the WAS...that's why I wanted your input Dia - from a woman's perspective. I have a lot of great male friends on here but Stronger is the only woman who posts regularly.

But I love all my friends on here! laugh

I think STronger meant that reply to another thread as she is writing to a male.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 07:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
I think you are very clear in what you are doing and what you want.
You are in a different boat than many here in that your children are adults. I think it was a call for you to make to tell your son or not depending on the relationship you have with him. It sounds as if you are close to each other.
Do get a lawyer.
Oh, and her telling you she’d take you to the cleaners…..that’s a common misconception women have. I have a male co-worker. His wife cheated on him, walk into their divorce with that attitude and walk away with nada after he had very little problem proving he wanted to reconcile AND she cheated him.
Courts are also more prone toward equal time between parents, no matter what the parents want. It’s come to light, that is better for the kids. A lot has changed in terms of divorce and the once upon a time assumed outcome.
I can’t believe the gaul…..she cheats on you and wants to threaten you about telling the truth about her cheating ways?

Stronger - who is this in response to? Doesn't quite fit my sitch smile
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 07:14 PM
Yes, that's script. BUT...

There's still an important message in it.

"I've been hurt"

"I don't trust you."

The thing about script is that to an extent, you have to blow it off and not take it personally. But don't discount it entirely because there are some nuggets in there.

Sometimes you need to listen and validate. Sometimes you need to blow it off. And *always* you need to not let it upset you.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 07:19 PM
So... that's what I'm dealing with ... his hurt and distrust. The plan for that is.. listen and validate? That is what I have been trying to do when we do have R talks that is. We are also going to start MC next month and I will practice a lot of that. Anything else I can do to help mend the hurt and distrust? That is definitely his main message = he's been hurt, can't get over past hurts, doesn't trust me that it will be different.

I'm feeling awful about how I've hurt him. I know that he's hurt me just as badly. But I also know the first and most important thing I can do is look at myself. Stop the blame. I have really worked hard on this. It's awful to know I've hurt him. I wish I could take back the past and so does he. He says he doesn't know if he can get past the past (lol that sounds funny but it's real). I guess giving him time, space, validation, compassion, and dealing with my own anxiety and fear of losing him so that I"m "ok no matter what" is the plan?

Any more advice?

Thanks Dia, I really see you as so strong ( and hilarious I love your thread!) and have come a long way with successful DB. THanks for the responses!
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 07:47 PM
Uh-Oh! I made a mistake too, I meant to post this somewhere else! Sorry that's why it makes no sense!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/18/09 11:42 PM
Panicking here - H always comes home for Friday night dinner (religious ritual) and I've emailed and texted today asking if he is coming and what time. H always calls or emails back with answer.

Nothing today. Dinner starts in half an hour.

My 180 - will not call or text. I'm steaming inside - furious - old me would have kept calling. I'm going to be upbeat and light whenever he calls -hether tonight or tomorro w- but I have to "keep going with my life". Right? Ugh. I can do this.
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 12:09 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I can do this.


You **CAN** do it smile
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 12:12 AM
THank you RSF I needed to hear that right now - I'm about to start dinner without him and I'm having a huge panic attack. Oh the fury in my veins.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 12:15 AM
He walked in claiming he didn't get my text, then stormed off. OUCH>
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 12:25 AM
Ok, just stay calm. Act as if that never happened. Whatever his crap is, it's not yours. Ignore it like a small child having a temper tantrum. And he did get the text.

It's hard to remember this, but sometimes, it's not about you. It's their crap. Leave it alone.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 02:50 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
But from a guys' perspective - how to lure back the man? I know what a woman likes from a man, but I have no idea what a man likes. If he wants space - if he is unsure anything will change, if he is hurt from a lot of years past - how to get a guy opening up and trusting and wanting to try again?


Hope,

A good place to start to get a better understanding on this topic would be to read the book "His Needs, Her Needs" by Willard Harley. I think that once you understand the basic needs of men as outlined in this book, you can look to fine tune your approach to your H based on his particular personality type. For example, I am more of an aggressive/confident personality type therefore one of the behaviors that I find attractive in a woman is assertiveness. If the shoe was on the other foot in my sitch and my W was like Stronger, she'd have me eating out of her hand in no time. Alternately, a Type B (passive) man would likely feel uncomfortable and maybe even intimidated by a woman who exhibited that type of behavior.

I think that when you are considering how your H may be feeling about being unsure, dealing with years of hurt, wanting to trust you and wanting to try again, you don't have to do a lot of heavy thinking. I think that if you gave some consideration about how you would feel under the same circumstances, you would likely be close to the mark. That is one of the advantages of being a woman- you are much more naturally in tune with your feelings whereas it usually takes some trauma for a man to come closer to the same sensitivity.

Another advantage you have with your H is that unlike a woman, your H will likely be responsive on some level to considerations beyond just his feelings. (No offense meant here!)

Hang in there!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 03:42 AM
You're right, as always, Stronger. It was his crap. The problem is, IT'S ALWAYS HIS CRAP LATELY!

I did stay calm. I'm proud of myself. 180. The old me would have fought with him. I did feel like I was sitting at dinner with two children having tantrums (S4 actually was). H yells at dinner how stressed out he is, how work is not going well, he didn't get to go to the gymn, how Friday night dinner is a "waste" b/c S4 has tantrums each time and so how can it be important. H has a standing Friday night game (he's a typical nerd - does role playing games) so he is always in a hurry. H threatened to call off Friday night dinners.

I did my 180 and said I'd be happy to talk about it sometime when we were calm and look at the options. With H gone, I feel more than ever these dinners are important for structure - even if S4 is fighting it for now. If we keep it up, S will come around. But H doesn't want to hear it.

I did my listening and validating - pretended I was a "friend" or "third party" by acknowledging that he's stressed on Fridays, it was a hard day, and coming for dinner is hard when it seems to not be "working" for S to provide structure. I did it, people. 180! By the end of dinner, everyone was a tad calmer.

The problem I have is him getting his way all the time. I know I have to validate, hear his needs, empathize, not fight, etc. But he's still just yelling and inconsiderate. I feel awful inside. This is exactly what caused me to be miserable in my marriage in the first place before the bomb. There's little acknowledgement of my needs and feelings and this is really trying my patience. I know I have to be patient, light, positive, go on with my life anyhow, but I'm miserable.

Tomorrow - Saturday. H was going to take S4 flying (he's a pilot) and I was not invited. Said he needed time to himself. He has been working late nights and his car is broken etc etc it's the same story every day. He's stressed out and I'm being empathetic, not asking for anything. I though H was going to return with S tomorrow afternoon and spend the day with us, but he said he wanted to go to the gymn. I asked if he would be here for dinner. He said he didn't know, may go out, may need time to himself.

At first I did a no-no, I said, "you're just going to take off?" out of surprise b/c I thought the plan was to return. He got upset (presumably b/c he feels I was controlling, and that I wasn't being empathetic at how stressed he is and how he needs a break. Under it all, he feels I used to go out 4-5 nights per week to rehearse or do plays, and H feels it's "his turn."

So I'm doing what I'm supposed to do - I backed off and said, "I understand, you should take some time to yourself. You need to relax." I tried this as a 180 - and to validate.

If I'm doing everything right, why does it feel so awful? Why do I feel so lonely? Why do I feel this is going nowhere?

I'm considering throwing in the towel, folks. This is so painful. H gets to come and go as he pleases, yell as he pleases, and I get to sit and validate and not be heard. Maybe I should just fight for a D and get the best I can and move on.

Needing some inspiration here people, I don't really want to give up, it just feels so hopeless tonight. Needing a little coaching.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 03:55 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Alternately, a Type B (passive) man would likely feel uncomfortable and maybe even intimidated by a woman who exhibited that type of behavior.



Another advantage you have with your H is that unlike a woman, your H will likely be responsive on some level to considerations beyond just his feelings. (No offense meant here!)

Hang in there!


Will check out the book! Thanks! I'm not sure which kind of guy my H is. On the one hand, he is your typical computer nerd - always at the computer, insecure with women, plays D&D, etc. On the other hand, you all know how he yells and bullies and can be quite aggressive. He gets things done in the work sphere that way, too.

As for me, I'm the opposite. I look really outgoing and confident on the outside - I'm an actress, I talk a lot, I have firm beliefs that I stick to. But inside, I'm so sensitive and insecure, that nobody would believe it. People always comment on how confindent I seem - but I never feel that way. H appears shy but is quite stubborn about who he is and how he would like things to be.

Please clarify "considerations beyond just his feelings?" I don't know what you are referring to.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 07:08 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Please clarify "considerations beyond just his feelings?" I don't know what you are referring to.


Hope,

What I meant here is that with men, it's not all 100% about "feelings" like is often the case with women. There is at least potential for reasoning and rational dialogue with your H. Understandably (given my own sitch), I think that this factor could be a real advantage for you in yours.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 07:19 AM
Yes, BJ, he is all rational and reason. And I mostly feelings. And tonight, I just feel done. I'm tired and want to give up.

Help me understand this re: your sitch, perhaps I'll get inspiration. Thanks buddy.
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 01:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I'm considering throwing in the towel, folks. This is so painful. H gets to come and go as he pleases, yell as he pleases, and I get to sit and validate and not be heard. Maybe I should just fight for a D and get the best I can and move on.

Needing some inspiration here people, I don't really want to give up, it just feels so hopeless tonight. Needing a little coaching.

Hope, there are a whole bunch of reasons why what you're doing now will pay huge dividends long-term and near-term. I can remember times being so stressed out with one of my toddlers having fits and tantrums. More and more stress builds as I try to control and console. I'm truly worried and I think I must do something. It keeps getting worse and my stress feeds hers.

I can remember the first time I finally just let the toddler go, have her fit right on the floor in front of me. I refused to participate. Once I was comfortable that she would be fine and that I wasn't a bad parent I found myself with some serious peace of mind. Eventually the toddlers find that their behavior doesn't work. They find themselves exposed or not the center of attention and they eventually get that their behavior is not making sense and they change it.

The challenge is you can't control their thoughts or make them see things. You can only set the stage and control the boundaries to insure safety. But what you get out of it is much bigger and independent from when or where they learn their lessons. You get real peace of mind.
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 01:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Yes, BJ, he is all rational and reason. And I mostly feelings. And tonight, I just feel done. I'm tired and want to give up.

With all due respect, I don't come away with a picture of a reasonable and rational person from your description of H's actions. I see you Hope, working to bring balance between feeling and reason. Keep doing it. You will prevail in the end.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 02:19 PM
Hope,
Yes. Give up. Let go. Move forward.
Don't give up for your marriage. But there's nothing wrong with letting him know you CAN live without him.
It sounds to me like you need to tell him "You're right. Friday, if you don't want to come over for dinner don't." If your interactions on Friday nights are so crappy, why do you want to do it?
For the record, you're stressed too. You can't keep juggling everyone's feelings. You have to work on yours first. When you're stable, being stable isn't so hard...get it?

Just calm down. This is a long hard process.

When something isn't working, stop it. Try something new.

Friday night dinners are not working. So stop it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 04:31 PM
Originally Posted By: RedSoxFan

Hope, there are a whole bunch of reasons why what you're doing now will pay huge dividends long-term and near-term. I can remember times being so stressed out with one of my toddlers having fits and tantrums. More and more stress builds as I try to control and console. I'm truly worried and I think I must do something. It keeps getting worse and my stress feeds hers.


The challenge is you can't control their thoughts or make them see things. You can only set the stage and control the boundaries to insure safety.


That's what i did this morning. It really helped to think of him like a toddler having a tantrum - like you and Stronger have said.

H came to pick up S4 to take him flying. When he started in about why isn't this ready and that ready to go - I just walked away. I wasn't going to stick around for the tantrum.

Same deal when he drops him off later. I'm going to be in the other room and just take S somewhere by myself and not talk about "plans" wih H. Not going to give him an excuse to have more tantrums with me.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 04:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
Hope,
Yes. Give up. Let go. Move forward.
Don't give up for your marriage. But there's nothing wrong with letting him know you CAN live without him.
It sounds to me like you need to tell him "You're right. Friday, if you don't want to come over for dinner don't." If your interactions on Friday nights are so crappy, why do you want to do it?
For the record, you're stressed too. You can't keep juggling everyone's feelings. You have to work on yours first. When you're stable, being stable isn't so hard...get it?

Just calm down. This is a long hard process.

When something isn't working, stop it. Try something new.

Friday night dinners are not working. So stop it.


It's true. I just feel like I'm giving in to H's tantrum. But if H doesn't want to be here, asking him to is only going to be more stress for me. And feeling like I can live without him is good for me - no matter how H takes it.

I'm calmer today but I still feel like giving up. Hard to see how giving up on trying to get along with H is not to not giving up on the marriag. Guess it's more like giving up on trying unless H is ready to try harder to get along with me. H has to take care of his own feelings of anger and resentment. It is hard to take care of everyone else's feelings. But I feel like dropping the ball on caring for H's feelings is giving up on listening and validating, giving up on spending positive time together, and therefor giving up on M altogether. Maybe this is just detachment. I don't know. The long haul isn't looking so good right now.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 06:35 PM
You have to stop trying so hard in hopes of making him react better to you.

Look at it this way....Let's say you have a co-worker. And it's one you work with weekly, not every day but three times a week minimum. This person doesn't like you. Not sure why, you have thought about it but can't put your finger on it. It's even more odd, because when you first started working together, you really hit off. You would go to lunch and happy hour and knew personal things about each other. While you don't but gifts for all your co-workers, you did for this one and they got you a gift too when the occasion warranted it. So, you actually confront this person nicely, "Do you have an issue with me?" And they say a few things about you, some of it legitimate some of it truly bogus. "I don't like how you put things off for me to do when you could easily do it yourself, plus it's your responsibility first. I feel taken advantage of. And I don't like your eye color."

Ok, it's true. You have put things off and they've had to pick up the slack but your eye color? And they are serious, they really don't like your eyes. Ok. Get real.

What would you do? A good person like you will make the concentrated effort to pull your weight. On occasion you are going to be slammed and they will have to pick up the slack, that's work, that's life. But you are not going to do anything about your eyes....because you can't and really, you just don't want to.

You now are doing your job to your best ability....no longer leaving it for this co-worker. You aren't conceding, you aren't being a wimp as you do more to pull your weight and meet your responsibilities. You are doing the right thing, you are acknowledging you were wrong and that you want to make it right.

With your eye color, well, co-worker will just have to deal and like you, realize they are wrong there. Your eyes are great and you wouldn't change that about you even if you could.

One of three things will happen: 1. The relationship between you and this co-worker will improve, back to like when you first started. Or 2. things get better but not like they were.
And 3. they continue to be an ass.
And if 1 happens, great. This too is a good person who was mad, and answered honestly their issues with you. The first issue was legit, the second stupid and they realized that when you first changed to make the effort to repair your bad work habit and therefore that relationship. But ultimately, you were the winner, not because the relationship improved but because you improved you and got rid of that bad work habit when brought to your attention. As a matter of fact, your co-worker had some bad habits too that were making you nutz, but those habits have been improved upon to in reciprocation to your efforts.

If two happens, that's ok. It's not like it was, but it's better and maybe down the road, things will just continue to improve. But the great things is you're a better person.

And finally with 3, if that's the outcome, you really don't need this co-worker. It's sad that they can't come to see what you've done in terms of your changes and if they can't forgive you for your bad habit that's now been corrected, if they can't see it for whatever reason, then you don't need to worry about it and you didn't waste your time because you improved you.

Does any of this help or make sense?

Improve you. If H notices, and in turn makes changes too, right on. If he doesn't, you are still the better you and no time has been wasted.

Get it?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 07:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Yes, BJ, he is all rational and reason. And I mostly feelings. And tonight, I just feel done. I'm tired and want to give up.

Help me understand this re: your sitch, perhaps I'll get inspiration. Thanks buddy.


Hope,

In my sitch, I want so much to be able to communicate with and understand my W on an intimate level, but because of our differences, it's very frustrating. And I want my W to understand my thinking and my feelings.

My W is very limited in her ability to think beyond her feelings and engage in some critical thinking. And, although I've come a long way in terms of understanding her feelings based thinking, there is a limit to my abilities in this regard.

When I look at my sitch, I feel as though it is my W who has a better chance of ultimately understanding me better than I can understand her. Unfortunately, it is my W, not me, who is in the midst of a personal crisis. When I look at your sitch, the reverse seems to be true: the better equipped spouse is NOT the one having the personal crisis.

My point here is that I think you have a lot more going for you than you might think.

I can certainly relate to your feelings of being exhausted and "done". I am certainly "done" in my sitch with the disrespect and emotional abuse inflicted on me by my W. But does that mean that I'm "done" with my M and/or my family- even in the midst of filing for D? I can't say that I am. That is why I'm dropping the rope completely with regards to my W. I need a vacation from her and her crap! Whether or not my vacation from her will be permanent or not is her choice!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 09:54 PM
I totally get what you are saying. You are right. Perfect for sitch today.

H says he'll be back with S between 1:30-2. When he calls at 1 and says he'll be home in 35 min. I call back to ask if I can come back at 2 because I wanted to wrap things up with my friend I was visiting.

H goes off.

When I get home I appologize and say it was a communication error about our meeting agreement. I have also been asking him for days if/when he will come back htis afternoon so I can go exercise. He has been avoiding answering. I'm guessing OW.

I ask again if/when he intends to come home this afternoon. H blasts me again and storms off. I asked him if this was about keeping agreements, and if so I would like an agreement about today too. I also said if this is about him needing to be somewhere tonight by a certain time, just tell me so, and the fact that he won't answer makes me think he's hiding something.

He storms out and says he hates it when I follow him outside and don't drop the subject. I should have dropped it, but I kept insisting, then please tell me your schedule.

I'm not telling him when to be here, I am asking for the same respect. He just gets more p.o.ed and drives off like a maniac mumbling something about maybe going to the East Bay (OW i figure).

It just doesn't seem fair and I decided not to be a doormat, jumping everytime he demands I be home, but not giving me the same respect. This may have backfired. Now he is more p.o.ed and blaming me than ever.

If this was a co-worker, I would have done the same thing - if we are going to have time agreements and stick to them, it needs to go both ways. I think that is fair.

Advice?

I'm also still agreeing to hold up my end - be where and when I said I would. But hoping for them to hold up their end too.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 09:59 PM
That is a boundary. You need to set it and make him stand firm to it. Yes, you do deserve the same respect.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 10:10 PM
Thank you. I'm sure he won't want to give it, since it may impede on his time with OW. RRRRRGGGG!
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 10:26 PM
I saw you posted that your H wants to you admit you've been separated since he moved out. Do you realize that will take away your ability to claim marital misconduct? Possibly?

And if you were to go forward with the legal separation then you need to put in there definite times he takes S. And he needs to take him over night one night a week and every other weekend. Let him see how hard it is you work and that this is a very different life when it's not two adults tag teaming to raise a child. Two is def. better (and easier frankly because kids are precious but so hard) than one.

He might be able to walk away from the marriage, but do does NOT get to walk away from being a father. Period.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 10:34 PM
;He's a very good father, he is always here for S,that's not a problem - its the fuzzy details I don't like. And, he def. wants legal sep to begin BEFORE he started seeing OW. THat's not the reason he gave, but it's obvious.

But a while ago, before the bomb, I also slept with someone else. H knows. He could just as well use this against me.

As for my boundary - are you sure it's not pursuing? Am I being too pushy?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 10:38 PM
H comes over here three to four nights per week so sleep on the couch, put S to bed, and take S to school in the morning. He wants to show 50% caretaking I'm sure, but he also does it so that S can stay in his own bed and home and to spend time with him.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 10:43 PM
Hope,
Keep your faith that this can be a new marriage. Always always. You know my situation, so you know that's what I'm doing.

With that, I have also protected myself. Despite having a great weekend....I have protected myself with my lawyer. While I've asked for an extension, I have also asked for lawyer's fees. In my eyes, that's the tripping point for H right now. I may pull it back because I can ask for it later if things really did progress that way but I put it in there for now to let H know, I'm not oblivious, I am aware of the reality that this could end.

If he wants to do the legal separation and you agree to it, do NOT agree that it started before OW. A one night stand or brief relationship is not the same as having an actual girlfriend while married in the courts eyes. He's protecting himself and blackmailing you to do it.

Maybe sit down with him and say "I love and appreciate how much time you are with S. But the fuzzy details are too hard on me and my schedule. To avoid fights in the future, let's create a schedule that's firm so you can make plans."
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/19/09 11:44 PM
I sent him an email saying just that (see above) but in way too many words. Same exact gist. I wish I hadn't been so emotional when I wrote it, and had kept it short like yours.

I already, at my L's advice, asked to have the legal sep. start the day we begin MC - and he blew his lid at me for HOUUUUURRRRRSSSS.I'm not going to get it.

He was mad because he thought I was digging in to his alone time. I was mad because I felt he was not being clear with me about the schedule for the rest of the day.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/20/09 01:11 AM
Do not do the legal separation....which as I understand it is just words from being a divorce anyways.

That's just my opinion, you have to make that choice for yourself. But it feels like a set up.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/20/09 01:38 AM
Well he'll file for D if I don't. The set up is - do it legal sep his way, and he'll be fair in the terms.

Fight him , and he'll take me to court and we'll spend thousands on lawyers fighting out the terms.

At this point I don't have the money, but I'm starting to think I need to fight in court rather than give him what he wants.

I'm just feeling bitter tonight because in every way, I feel he gets what he wants and I get nothing. If I give him the legal sep., I get five months of MC and a guarantee H won't file for D for one year. It buys me time.

I agree it feels like a set up. I just don't know what to do. It seems in every arena - from scheduling, to any conversation really - it's his way or the high way. I have been going along with it in my effort to DB, not fight, show I am validating, not pursuing, etc. But it's starting to hurt. Today was a symbol of that. I didn't want to jump when he called me to pick up S. I'm tired of feeling powerless. But he's fighting me no matter what. I either fight back, and get blamed for fighting, or I duck his punches best I can and wind up feeling beat up.
I'm sorry you're having a down spot.

Keep this in mind though. You're not powerless. You're never powerless. You ALWAYS have the power to say enough is enough. Or you have the power to continue DBing.

What you are doing is your choice. I'm making the same choice in my sitch. We're choosing the harder road because we see that in the long run it could be so worth it.

I hope tomorrow brings you a better day.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/20/09 06:11 AM
EB thanks for checking in as always. You're right, it's gotta be worth it - some day.

And thanks for the reminder I am not powerless. This has been my mantra tonight.

I fear he is with OW tonight because he was evasive. Holding my head high and doing small things for me.

Big day with MIL tomorrow. God help me.

I'm going to have no expectations of H (except that he be mean, scowly, blaming as usual - and of course skip out on the evening - lol). I'm going to play it cool, keep it light and positive, enjoy the day with my S.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/20/09 07:03 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
He just gets more p.o.ed and drives off like a maniac mumbling something about maybe going to the East Bay (OW i figure).


Hope,

Do you live in San Francisco? The reason I ask is because the courts there should be pretty favorable to you as a mother. Your H may not have it as easy as you or he thinks. In the event of a D, he is going to have to prove he deserves 50/50 joint physical custody. I know this because I'm going to mediation very soon up here in the North Bay (similar venue) and it's not going to be a cake walk for me even though I'm a dedicated father.

Regarding the legal separation proposal, I don't know why your H is making such a big deal out of this. The only obvious benefit to legal S over D is that you can maintain your family health insurance. Could this be some sort of power play on his part? A bluff of some sort?

Also, there is no marital misconduct issues since California is a no-fault D state. (How I wish you and I lived in Florida where Stronger lives right now.)

Hope this puts your mind a little at ease.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/20/09 04:34 PM
Guys, listen to me: Florida was the FIRST NO FAULT state. Being no fault doesn't mean anything in terms of marital misconduct....you still can't cheat on your spouse. And if they are spending money on OP, even worse for them.

Find out more about it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/20/09 05:04 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
He just gets more p.o.ed and drives off like a maniac mumbling something about maybe going to the East Bay (OW i figure).


Hope,

Do you live in San Francisco? The reason I ask is because the courts there should be pretty favorable to you as a mother. Your H may not have it as easy as you or he thinks. In the event of a D, he is going to have to prove he deserves 50/50 joint physical custody. I know this because I'm going to mediation very soon up here in the North Bay (similar venue) and it's not going to be a cake walk for me even though I'm a dedicated father.



I'm in the north bay too - Marin. My lawyer says the courts favor 50%-50% so I don't know how easy or hard it is...

As for legal sep. - health insurance is a big part of it.

As for the rest - I don't know. I'm really sad and tired today.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/20/09 05:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
Guys, listen to me: Florida was the FIRST NO FAULT state. Being no fault doesn't mean anything in terms of marital misconduct....you still can't cheat on your spouse. And if they are spending money on OP, even worse for them.

Find out more about it.



Stronger - will def ask my L about this when we meet. THX!!!!! I may just fight him on this.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/20/09 05:32 PM
PS - my task now is to back waaaaaaaay off. Detaching. I think I'm having too many expectations. LIke STronger suggested a while back, I'm going to lighten up expectations of "scheduling" and just go on with my life. I need to stay focussed on this letting go f - keep me on track people!

\Now off to the dreaded MIL visit - ugh!

Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 12:48 PM
How are things?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 02:39 PM
thx for checking in, STronger.

Day with MIL went surprisingly well. I did my best DB - stayed cool - kept light, positive, fun - imagining if H was coming back in 30 days - how would I act? I just was cool and focused on having fun with S and not focusing on H. H mostly talked with his brother, and MIL was surprisingly supportive. She looked at me and said I will always be her family, no matter what happens. It was nice.

H argued with me only about S's dinner - again. I'm tired of this. I took some space from H at S's bedtime and then called him to say we need to talk about the discipline thing around dinner times. We had a calm and productive conversation about it - productive. We also talked about some things we will get into when we go back to MC - I told him I feel we need to go deeper than we have the last time we were at MC - and he agreed - He seemed to warm up last night, and having that calm tal, and being open to MC was def. babysteps!

Then H wanted to go back to his apt. I did a DB no-no , I asked him to stay. He look really sad and so did I and he said,
'ok...but don't use this against me if we D." WTF?

This thing about "if we D" is governing his behavior so much. H feels if he's staying over here and it's not just for S, then I can argue that we weren't really separated. He claims this will feel better once we are legally sep. - same old argument. It really is driving his behavior, I told him he can't control the future, he can only act from his feeling now, but I don't think I got through.

I had ahuge panic attack about OW saturday night - H has been consistently defensive and elusive about his Sat. night whereabouts, which he hasn't been for a few weeks. I cried all Saturday night. I'm still in pain over it. I am trying not to bring it up, per DB, just focus on me, let it go, not make it worse, etc...sooooooooo
hard. I told him I don't think I can be ok with him having Fri and Sat off from being with S any more. It's really more for me. He's out Fri and SAt and I"m home with S - he has opportunity to be with OW and I"m at home crying? I don't want to be controlling, but why should I enable this? H said he was "open to negotiating that".

I need to work harder on my DB -- I'm a loser in that dept. I don't back off well. I think I"m not pulling back enough to make him miss me or whatever - I'm always available and he knows I want reconsiliation, and he keeps telling me he thinks the "odds are against us," so he's acting "in case". He is weird. I dno't understand who this person is that I thought I knew or what motivates his behavior. I guess he's telling me but I don't know if I believe it.

I had a dream I murdered the OW! lol

Sorry, you got way more info than you bargained for STronger!

Thoughts? Advice?
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 03:45 PM
Hey, Hope,

Hang in there. We all hit rough patches!

Re: Him staying over (and other stuff, too) - the more you can keep the pressure off of him, the easier time he will have making those baby steps. And while it sucks to high Heaven, the only way to do that is by detaching and backing off as you've already noted.

It might also help if you started agreeing with him when he makes statement like the one about how the odds are against you. This is very counter-intuitive, and it can be fear-provoking for you but it does work.

Example:

H: Just don't use this against me if we D.

Hope (light and casual): Oh, no worries. I know where you stand. (then physically walk away like you have something to do elsewhere in the house)

Example 2:

H: The odds are against us.

Hope (light and off-hand): Yes, I know. (and go back to reading your book or whatever you were doing)

When you do this, you need to give the impression that the issue matters so little that it's hardly worth taking your attention off something else to respond.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 04:16 PM
Dia!

THank you = I'm ready to do this. I have to be very smart about my responses and stop acting from my feelings. I will do this. I literally have to practice my words like an actress.

Per your advice, when he got up this morning, he was quick to run out - and everything inside me shrank with feeling rejected and afraid. Instead, I said, "OK, see ya" and kept working on my computer. Good job, right? Why is it so hard? Why does it hurt so much?

Although inside, I'm getting more terrified of this legal separation. I know that if I don't give it to him, he'll react like I'm controlling, he'll pull back even more, and file a D,. If I do, I show trust, calmness, and like I have a life no matter what happens - but I'm agreeing to not sharing a life with him at all, which IS totally against my intuition.

Note - he still hasn't gotten the paperwork together to file. Have to show that it's inconsequential to me and my life.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 05:34 PM
More of the same behaviors:
-saying ILY
-long "talks"
-being home whenever H comes over
-reacting to H's anger - button pushing
-sad when around H
-resisting H around legal sep
-feeling responsible for H's anger, frustration

Trying something new:
-No more ILY until I hear it
-no R talks, or very short succint ones - I will set and keep limit
-GAL or busy in house
-light, upbeat, laughter when around H
-agree and let go (not show it bothers me) when h talks about legal sep
-Let H deal with his own anger/frustration

-listen, validate, then walk away
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 05:45 PM
Re: legal sep

This is another hard one, and it's something I've not had to do in my own sitch so I'm not speaking from experience. The advice hre, however, is the following:

1) Let your H be entirely responsible for this. You will not assist in any way, remind him of deadlines, etc. If he never gets around to it, so much the better.

2) Accept that you cannot control this, so don't try.

3) The message to convey to your H is along the lines of: "If that's what you think you need to do, I understand." The Guccis of the world will even AGREE with the sep. "Yes, this is probably for the best." I've never had to do that, but it sure does seem to give the WAS pause.

4) If your H does present you with sep. paperwork, DO NOT PANIC. Sep paperwork doesn't mean it's over. Keep DBing. It's ok to say you will look over the papers and get back to him. You don't have to allow him to make you sign on the spot.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 05:48 PM
UGH! ok. What else can I do except accept it? H has opened up waaaay more since I've demonstrating this attitude, per GUcci. I have not given him any help, but not fought him. He is taking steps on paperwork, but slowly. If you read my sitch, H has put into LS agreement a commitment to 5 months MC or agreement is null. My only hope.

I do not understand!!!! But I will say it. Even with the inner cringe.
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 05:50 PM
5 months MC, hmmm?

DB Coaches are licensed and credentialed therapists.

I'm just sayin...
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 05:55 PM
Ok, really really think about this.
He says he wants out. He says he wants a legal separation first and if you give that to him, he will go to marriage counseling.
How sure are you about OW? Has he admitted this? Or are you just suspicious?
Lately, he’s been pretty mean to you and pretty horrible about S as it relates to discipline but good otherwise, right? He’s been sort of jerky about coverage for S too, but more that he’s around but isn’t very firm about when he’s going to be making it hard for you to get out and do stuff, correct?
Every now and then, there are good conversations, break throughs if you will, and you get to talk to the guy you married while the crazy guy who’s been around lately seems to take a break, right?
There are moments when it seems like he misses you and wants to be around, even spending the night the other night, right?
Is there still intimacy between you two? None of my business really….but it could be a good sign if you are.

At this point, I think you need to really back off, which you admit is hard, but you’ve got to do it. It’s for your sanity. There haven’t been enough good days. Think of backing off as cleaning off the slate to create more good in the marriage than there is bad.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 06:33 PM
Stronger
He does not say he wants out. He has admitted to not being 100% sure. What he says is, he "doesn't think the odds are in favor of us being able to work this out" and he wants "protection in case - like insurance." He has also said this is an option in place of D.

He's good otherwise. Some nights every week where we are talking, laughing, watching tv, opening up. He's not making it too hard to get in and out of stuff - he's agreed and thoroughly stuck to a 50%
time share of evening/morning care with S where H sleeps at our house.

The unaccounted for time (I suspect is OW) has only been once or twice in the last 6 wks. H told me in our last MC session, 6 wks ago that he "got together with someone else" and in a conversation a few weeks back said he's "not going to stop seeing her and it's up to me to show I"m the better choice to return to." Could be a bluff as he is quite insecure with women, or it's not a big affair at the least, as he's accountable for his time 98% of the time.

Yes, break throughs, good convos - I don't post them here as much as I do the angry outbursts, but in the last six weeks, they have been increasing slowly.

No intimacy. Not a surprise, there was no intimacy for years in our M - a reason we both had flings, an issue brought up in MC previously, but never really faced. Intend to face in upcoming MC - recently had some talks where I validated his hurt and took responsibility for my part in that - something I never could do before when I always blamed him. My blame is what pushed him toward OW, he says, because it "proved" to him that someone else would respond to him more positively than I would - he said he believed me before when I blamed him, feeling bad about his sexual performance, and now he feels it's not all his fault. (BTW this is the same reason I slept with someone else - to prove to myself that someone else would respond better to me so I didn't feel it was all my fault - I've looked at this and moved on, unwilling to act out like this ever again).

I've validated over and over and appologized admitting I was avoiding my part in it and if we ever get there again, I want to show him I take responsibility and that I was wrong.

Backing off is the hardest thing for me. Especially when I sense this female threat lurking in the wings. But what made me stop thinking about other men as "better options" was when my H moved on and found OW - I realized I was just reacting to H, but that I had to look at my part in why our sex life was zero. It seems too late now, but I want to work through this. Now he doesn't. Ugh.

I cant' seem to back off without depression. It feels like giving up.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 06:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Dia
5 months MC, hmmm?

DB Coaches are licensed and credentialed therapists.

I'm just sayin...


You mean go for DB coach instead of MC?
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 06:50 PM
It's a possibility. The coaches will work with one of you at a time, or both together. You can click over and read up on their credentials through the Telephone Coaching link at the top of the page. If you want to explore that option, I'd schedule a session with a DB Coach yourself first to talk over this whole idea of the Coach working with both of you, your H not being sure, etc. He will need to feel comfortable that they will be fair and objective, that they won't simply pressure him to stay in the M 'because that's what they do', and talking to the Coach may help you find ways to convey that message in a manner he'll be able to hear.

Another tactic is to schedule one session but let him go first, by himself. That way he won't feel you've contaminated the waters, so to speak. They have an 800 number with someone you can talk to if you want more info.

I absolutely do not mean to pressure you to do this - it's just that it did help me and the DB Coaches seem like they might be better than many other therapists at not deciding at the drop of a hat that the best thing they can do is help both of you 'move on', ya know?

I've only had two sessions, and they made a huge difference for me. My H has never talked to them, but I may suggest it here shortly.
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 06:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv


I cant' seem to back off without depression. It feels like giving up.


It's not giving up. It is:

1) Best for your mental health and stability. And,

2) A tactical flanking maneuver. wink

Have you ever seen in something like Judo where in order to throw an opponent, the person has to fall themselves? Removing the resistance leaves the other person with nothing to push against anymore.
Posted By: Coach Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 06:59 PM
Quote:
I cant' seem to back off without depression. It feels like giving up.


Why do you believe that?
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 07:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Stronger
He does not say he wants out. He has admitted to not being 100% sure. What he says is, he "doesn't think the odds are in favor of us being able to work this out" and he wants "protection in case - like insurance." He has also said this is an option in place of D.


Does that sound like he wants in?????
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 09:15 PM
Friends,

You are all helping me turn around today thank you so much!

Dia - You are right about the judo. And the taking care of myself. Stronger also reminds me of this constantly.

I am going to start a sewing project tonight - just for me.

Stronger - Yes, it sounds like part of him wants in, just like most WASs, he is unsure and needing time to have changes proven. I talked with IC who has also seen us as a couple few times - we agreed he is not saying he wants out. He wants protection in case of divorce to say the separation ended when he moved out - for financial reasons. All other ramifications I will stop speculating about until I speak with my L - when and if H ever completes the paperwork. IC thinks H is on the fence, or else he would file D papers immediately and not put in a bunch of protective measures in my benefit, as he has.

Coach - good question. I realized in IC I'm scared of letting go of M status and security - as I live in an affluent neithborhood with a lot of "perfect" looking Ms around that I compare myself to. IC reminded me both of us were unhappy with the previous M, not just H. I need to get away from the catastrophic thoughts that say I'm a loser if I'm sep or D, that no way will we be able to work it out (he's not gone yet, and is promising MC). I just seem to fall into panic mode way too easily - IC got me back in my game on feeling centered, focused, and calm.

I feel guilty for breaking up our M (or at least my part in it)

Reality is: H is not gone yet.
If H wants to D me, I cannot control that, but he hasn't yet and is stipulating in sep agr. he won't file for D for one year or it's null.
This fact, plus the agreement for 5 months of MC will demonstrate to me if H is really willing to work on it, or if he's resigned to going forward to a D - I have at least that much time.
H is being fair even though quite cautious and financially protective of himself.
I need to give my DB and self-changing efforts more time and patience, hanging in while H's on the fence.
H shows up 3-4 nights per week at our house and doesn't avoid me - he's watching me.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/21/09 10:53 PM
bump
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/22/09 04:08 AM
rebump
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/22/09 05:11 AM
Good night tonight -
S and I had dinner without H, so no yelling at the table. smile
H started in with his usualy irritation and walking away when talking around a schedule thing -but got him to talk it out calmly. Success.
Went to my new support group. Totally empowering. Came home feeling really calm and in touch with myself after days of being anxious and depressed. I didn't freak out that H was here. I just sat next to him on the couch and we looked at our computers and chatted. Pretty new. Felt good and normalish to be doing this again. A def baby step.
H threw out some rude comments and they just rolled off my back - for real. I just saw him as shooting his mouth off, didn't take him seriously. New, 180.
When H slipped in something about getting a bigger apt. I slipped and said "you could move back here" but didn't react when he said "no that won't happen". I just took his statements like blather and not like piercing barbs like I usually do. H was just not getting to me. FINALLY> AND I LET IT GO. Something I never do and irritates him to no end. 180.

He wanted "privacy" when talking to his brother on the phone - I would usually get paranoid he's talking about me but I don't even care. I am happy just doing my thing. First time in months.

Also, he got all uptight when I asked to see something on his computer he was talking to me about. Instead of this being an argument, like usual, I was aloof and light. Didn't matter to me what was on his computer, I was just following the conversation. He said it was "rude and invasive" I said "what are you hiding something?" and he said "nothing - I had already shut down." So I said, "exactly, so why are you freaking out" and he dsaid something about how I shouldn't say anything because of my past history of hiding things on my computer (long time issue - related to the fling I had once upon a time,etc). So I softened and lightly said, "oh, is that what it is? I'm sorry about that. I'm also sorry because I didn't mean to invade your space." He looked at me surprised and said, "Oh, thanks,"

Real 180 here. I'm proud. (Even with his stupid talk of getting bigger apts...grrrrr) He just didn't trigger me - I felt whole and strong inside myself. IT's been a long time since I felt this way. Really good. And different from even this morning. Dare I say I felt ... DETACHED?!?!?!?! I did it, people!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/22/09 06:53 AM
Hope,

Sounds like a lot of positive things happened with you tonight. Be careful though about thinking you are detached. Detachment is a process that takes a long time. It's like a skill, such as a martial art. BTW, As a former Judo student from way back, I appreciated Dia's analogy. I have likened my personal evolution in my sitch to the type of discipline similar to that gained through the martial arts.

Hang in there, I think you are doing great.
Posted By: Mongoose27 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/22/09 01:16 PM
I am brand new and this is my first reply or post. I really sympathize with you and believe me it being hard is an understatement. I know that life teaches us that it will get better but it doesn't feel that way. It feels like it will be different, of course, but not better. In my situation, I do not think my ex even cares about what happens to me or has any feelings for me anymore. I am just lost right now. I have a close friend who is going through things as well and I am going to try to get her on the site too. I hope this helps. I joined on the suggestion of a friend and he said it helped him a lot. He actually recommended it awhile back but it took awhile for me to get up the courage to join. For the first time in my life I feel empty and like I have no goals. Night time is the worst especially on the nights when I do not have my daughter. Hurts really bad.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Dare I say I felt ... DETACHED?!?!?!?! I did it, people!


GOOD FOR YOU!!!!

I hope you have a great day today
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/22/09 07:36 PM
Panicking again today - re: him telling me we now have separate credit cards. His L told him to do this for the legal sep. I have no idea what this means - when I spend money - can I afford it? H's night to be away. Also panicking.
Is he going to be paying support during separation?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/22/09 07:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Energizer Bunny
Is he going to be paying support during separation?

He has to. I'm at at-home mother
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/22/09 07:54 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Hope,

Sounds like a lot of positive things happened with you tonight. Be careful though about thinking you are detached. Detachment is a process that takes a long time. It's like a skill, such as a martial art. BTW, As a former Judo student from way back, I appreciated Dia's analogy. I have likened my personal evolution in my sitch to the type of discipline similar to that gained through the martial arts.

Hang in there, I think you are doing great.


THnks BJ

Yeah, I know you are right. Today already I'm feeling less calm. Gotta keep working it.

I looked up some martial (marital) arts info. Really helped. THey reminded me that my power is in being calm and centered in mind and body. that th opponent's force is their vulnerability and no let that force go on it's own rather than resist it.

Still not sure what this looks like for M. However, being centered and not thrown into panic by his attacks are a good starting place.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/22/09 07:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Mongoose27
I am brand new and this is my first reply or post. I really sympathize with you and believe me it being hard is an understatement. I know that life teaches us that it will get better but it doesn't feel that way. It feels like it will be different, of course, but not better. In my situation, I do not think my ex even cares about what happens to me or has any feelings for me anymore. I am just lost right now. I have a close friend who is going through things as well and I am going to try to get her on the site too. I hope this helps. I joined on the suggestion of a friend and he said it helped him a lot. He actually recommended it awhile back but it took awhile for me to get up the courage to join. For the first time in my life I feel empty and like I have no goals. Night time is the worst especially on the nights when I do not have my daughter. Hurts really bad.


Thanks Mongoose. I think this site will help you a lot. Keep coming back. When I feel that pain, I talk to friends, talk on here, exercise, and cry. I don't know what else to tell you. It does hurt. But remember a M's problems stem from two people, not just you. Check out posts on WAS (Walk Away Spouse) and you will find a lot of people dealing with the same emotions we are.

Adn when you are ready, goals really help. Things to do for you.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Panicking again today


I wish I had something comforting to say. It looks like we are both hit with a "down" at the same time.

We'll both get through this. I don't know what the other side looks like, but I know we'll get there.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/22/09 10:47 PM
THX EB - you are right.

I'm actually feeling way better today than I have all weekend. Weekend seems to be hard.

Helps that S's birthday is tomorrow - I have cake making and present wrapping to keep me sane. smile

Are you able to do anything for yourself this week EB?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/23/09 01:30 AM
It's my night to be home with S. H told me this morning he "may be home for dinner". I let it go.

An hour before dinner, I called to see if he was coming only because I needed something from the store. I kept it brief, light, and got off the phone first. He agreed. He showed up. Within 5 minutes he was yelling at me again. H angry he left a beer in his fridge "that might blow up so he can't stay that long". I was fine, kept going about my business.

Yelled at me for not being more careful with the sliding glass door - yells that he has not said anything for the two years we've had the new windows that they need to be cleaned more frequently - or else they are going to "break - and you'll have to pay for them."

Then yells about having to come home early tomorrow to be with our S so I can go to my support group - a support group for my issues with sexuality, that HE wants me to go to in order to own up to my own problems. I told him it would start early weeks ago - and asked him then if it would be a problem and he said it would be fine.

Now the day before it starts, he's complaining, raising his voice and saying "think about that and get back to me."

Why? That makes no sense.

So I told him he had a chance to work out the schedule with me weeks ago.

I'm tired of H coming home only to yell at me the whole time. Here's my email:


When you come home, please be more calm.

I totally want to hear your advice/concerns re: the house, discipline with S, etc. It's very important to me that we discuss all these things and your imput is valuable and helpful. But we need to have productive conversations and listen respectfully to each other.

When you are expressing yourself with anxiety, irritation, or whatever, I feel more upset and have a harder time hearing you. I ultimately want it to be postive - it doesn't get resolved well when it's communicated with stress and in passing. It's also not cool for S.

I will ask you again for what I have repeatedly ask = please sit down with me (or call or email), when S is asleep or not here, and when we are calm to discuss. I can hear you better then.

When you come over here, the mood needs to be light and relaxed around S- for him and me. Thank you.

What do you think, people? Trying to draw a boundary while being detached.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/23/09 02:21 AM
AFterward, I just called him and said the same thing. He calmed down/. I don't believe anything will be different tomorrow - I'm just going to avoid him.
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/23/09 02:42 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Here's my email:


When you come home, please be more calm.

I totally want to hear your advice/concerns re: the house, discipline with S, etc. It's very important to me that we discuss all these things and your imput is valuable and helpful. But we need to have productive conversations and listen respectfully to each other.

When you are expressing yourself with anxiety, irritation, or whatever, I feel more upset and have a harder time hearing you. I ultimately want it to be postive - it doesn't get resolved well when it's communicated with stress and in passing. It's also not cool for S.

I will ask you again for what I have repeatedly ask = please sit down with me (or call or email), when S is asleep or not here, and when we are calm to discuss. I can hear you better then.

When you come over here, the mood needs to be light and relaxed around S- for him and me. Thank you.

What do you think, people? Trying to draw a boundary while being detached.

I'm not in a position to offer advice on this so it should come from others. I think you're definitely on the right track. Only thing I notice is that you seem to be timidly pleading for what should be boldly demanded or at least clearly and authoritatively stated, as a required boundary.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/23/09 03:28 AM
Originally Posted By: RedSoxFan

I'm not in a position to offer advice on this so it should come from others. I think you're definitely on the right track. Only thing I notice is that you seem to be timidly pleading for what should be boldly demanded or at least clearly and authoritatively stated, as a required boundary.


I wish I could, RSF. My H gets even more enraged when I confront him strongly. He also tends to blame me. It just gets worse.

However, I think you and others on this forum are right. I need to develop more firmness and strength when laying boundaries for him. I know I'll be confronted with his yelling at me day after day, so I'll have plenty more chances to practice firmness.

I called him after that and told him yelling wasn't cool in front of Z. He literally said, "I didn't yell - and not in front of S." How am I supposed to confront someone who doesn't see what they are doing? He just does not see it people.
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/23/09 03:32 AM
Look at it this way - he'll yell if you're timid and he'll yell if you're firm - so you might as well be firm. The result is the same, no?

But at least if you're firm you're no longer buying in AT ALL to how he treats you.

I've faced this dilemma personally (though not with H) and I decided that if I was damned if I did and damned if I didn't that I'd rather be damned for doing. At least that way, I was no longer complicit in my own verbal abuse.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/23/09 04:29 AM
THX Dia,

Will try again. Lord knows it will happen again tomorrow. But that's S's birthday. Next day, I will say, "This is unacceptable." and walk out.

Back to panic mode - think this is all about him being with OW tonight. Just a suspicion.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/23/09 05:44 AM
I'm so down again.

My H disappears and yells at me for all the things HE IS DOING. H yells about the house - he does nothing, doesn't lift one finger even when he is here with S. H yells about how I slept with someone a long time ago - he is out doing that. H yells about my volitility, which I have completely eliminated, and he is the one blowing up every day. H yells about how he is not coming back because he doesn't trust my changes are real - he's not changing at all. H yells about how we never looked at "the real issues" yet refuses to go to therapy and deal with the real issues.

I'm not detached tonight. I'm really upset and panicking and thinking of giving this all up again.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/23/09 06:06 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Hope,

Sounds like a lot of positive things happened with you tonight. Be careful though about thinking you are detached. Detachment is a process that takes a long time. It's like a skill, such as a martial art. BTW, As a former Judo student from way back, I appreciated Dia's analogy. I have likened my personal evolution in my sitch to the type of discipline similar to that gained through the martial arts.

Hang in there, I think you are doing great.


THnks BJ

Yeah, I know you are right. Today already I'm feeling less calm. Gotta keep working it.

I looked up some martial (marital) arts info. Really helped. THey reminded me that my power is in being calm and centered in mind and body. that th opponent's force is their vulnerability and no let that force go on it's own rather than resist it.

Still not sure what this looks like for M. However, being centered and not thrown into panic by his attacks are a good starting place.


Hope,

Your on the right track with your thinking on this. Early in my sitch one of the things that kept me grounded was a saying from one of my boyhood idols, Bruce Lee, who said "Be like Water". Whenever your H comes at you with this garbage and/or starts his tirades just think "Be like Water".
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/23/09 08:11 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
[quote=BigJohn]Hope,

Sounds like a lot of positive things happened with you tonight. Be careful though about thinking you are detached. Detachment is a process that takes a long time. It's like a skill, such as a martial art. BTW, As a former Judo student from way back, I appreciated Dia's analogy. I have likened my personal evolution in my sitch to the type of discipline similar to that gained through the martial arts.

Hang in there, I think you are doing great.


THnks BJ

Yeah, I know you are right. Today already I'm feeling less calm. Gotta keep working it.

I looked up some martial (marital) arts info. Really helped. THey reminded me that my power is in being calm and centered in mind and body. that th opponent's force is their vulnerability and no let that force go on it's own rather than resist it.

Still not sure what this looks like for M. However, being centered and not thrown into panic by his attacks are a good starting place. [/quot]

Hope,

Your on the right track with your thinking on this. Early in my sitch one of the things that kept me grounded was a saying from one of my boyhood idols, Bruce Lee, who said "Be like Water". Whenever your H comes at you with this garbage and/or starts his tirades just think "Be like Water".


BJ,

I have no idea what that means. LOL
If you can share with me what it means to you, I would appreciate it.
I guess it means no resistance, pure acceptance and the ability to keep flowing.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/23/09 07:08 PM
Back in my game. Detached. Busy, happy, doing things for me.

Good talk w H last night re: his anger issues. He listened.

Good talk this morning w H re: some concerns I had re: S. I wondered if we should take him to a child psychologist or at least attend MC for talking about how best to keep S secure. H was calmer in tone, feeling, voice and words than he has in a long, long time. This shows he was trying re: last night's talk. He was also very supportive re: S and his issues. This is the man I fell in love with, not the beast who has emerged lately.

I was really pleased. Baby steps but the autumnal equinox seems to have shifted things a bit - if these things can mean anything.

S's birthday today - lots of parties, hope H remains as calm and sweet as he was this morning. Then all should go smoothly....
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/23/09 07:43 PM
...and if he doesn't I'm going to draw that boundary, people! Shaking in my boots and all....
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/24/09 02:53 AM
He was sweet and nice most of the night - like he used to be a long time ago, it was an incredible relief. It was like, if he could just be this gentle and positive always, I would have no problem with him.

Then it happened. Again. S started having post-birthday-party-tantrum at bedtime. No surprise there - he just turned five there was lots of cake and presnts.

S pulls at my long sweater hung on a hook - H gets very upset and starts yelling at me "You have to move this sweater! S is going to ruin it!"

Instead of my usual nice response, I said," JUst deal with S and stop telling me what to do."

He did, took S in his room, but came back out later and just sighed impatiently, pointing vigorously at the sweater yelling, "You need to do something about this!!" Even though the tantrum was over.

I could not for the life of me figure out why he was so demanding I DO IT RIGHT THEN. Also, by the time he stopped yelling at me, he could have politely moved the sweater for me.

Later, S was having a meltdown again because it was bedtime. I told H that we needed to stop playing with all the new toys and move S toward bed. To which H sarcastically replies, "Stop telling ME what to do. See?!?! I only said one thing, you are going on and on!!!!"

I thougt to myself he is just looking for ways to argue, instead of looking for ways to get along. I told him, "You are just trying to be antagonistic. What I asked you had to do with our son, what you asked me was about my clothing which is not your concern."

He kept arguing me and raising his voice. I just stopped.

I'm still upset.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/24/09 04:02 AM
Progress, people! WE sat and talked about the above sitch - and it went well! Wow, we are actually TALKING about issues here! This is baby steps.

Like EB says, ups and downs.
Posted By: Mongoose27 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/24/09 04:25 AM
Thanks I intend to come back. Been working out like crazy but had a set back on that yesterday. I am going to check out the WAS forum as well. I am at a point that I am willing to do anything that will help. It hard because it feels so much like you are not important. It is even harder when the person you loved so much looks like they are happier without you. I guess I had better get used to. I miss holding her at night and her paying attention to me. I miss being home period. I feel like it was like I never existed. Like I am forgotten.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/24/09 07:12 AM
Hope,

Yeah I was in my Zen Master mode the other day thinking about things about your sitch and mine. laugh But to answer your question, here is the full text of what Bruce Lee said:

"Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.

Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend."

Make any sense? grin
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/24/09 03:52 PM
BJ = I love it! Will do. Thanks, Zen Master.

MOngoose - you'll find every LBS on this forum feels or has felt the way you do. You'll just have to go through the feelings and start living life for you.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/24/09 04:10 PM
PS - I was worried that there was an OW - because H's car has been absent from his parking place on his off nights (H lives right near by, it's easy to see).

But he told me he just has been parking in a new parking place in the shade.

So relieved.
I was listening to a Christian radio program this morning. They were talking about "being like water" too.

Their point was similar but states something like "We may not be able to see God's plan, but need to comform to the opportunities that he presents to us. We can't change his plan, but adjust to it...like water conforms to the vessle it is poured in."
Another one I hear recently was "Be The Duck."

I had to ask what that meant.

It means let the water just roll right off of your back.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/24/09 06:47 PM
Quack quack = drip drip....
All of this Water/Duck talk makes me want to go boating...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/24/09 08:15 PM
ooh me too. what kind of boating do you do? I live where there is both a bay and river delta. I've done sailing, fishing boating, and kayaking. Time to get back on the water!
I live in the Great Lakes State. Where there's water, I've been on it.

We sold our boat (power boat..little runabout) and I bought a Jeep.

I love the water. Need a new boat.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/25/09 03:57 AM
Gosh the last two nights were fabulous. We were closer as a family than we've ever been since H left. Two birthday celebration nights for S (now 5) and H was very calm and sweet.

H DIDN'T YELL AT ALL TONIGHT - could be because my parents were around. Still felt nice.

H is looking at new apts. I'm confused. On the one hand, I know he won't consider moving back in for a while if at all due to the 5 months of therapy agreement -= and the apt he's looking at is right around the corner - very convenient! He says it's the same price as the studio he's now renting, but for a 1 bdr. makes sense.

But still sad, because it cements the idea that he's not even considering moving home. But I suppose moving closer is definitely improvement. Perhaps that is symbolic. Asked him to request month t0 month or a six month lease. He said "we'll see."

sigh. patience.
Posted By: Mongoose27 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/25/09 04:03 AM
Had a good day until I got home. I had dinner with my room mate and then started missing her. I truly do not think she cares what I am going through nor how I feel. I work out all the time. I don't drink to deal with it. I eat good. I go to work, I coach football at a junior college in my spare time and most importantly I spend time with my little girl. Yet I feel like it is all for nothing and it doesn't matter what I say or do. I spent the over the last 2 years for nothing.
Posted By: Mongoose27 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/25/09 04:10 AM
Thanks for the support on that. RIght now I feel like a nothing. No matter that I am doing nothing self indulgent to deal with it. I am working out, taking care of my little girl and I still feel like it doesn't matter. I am not even sure why i still love her. It doesn't make sense to why I do! Everyone says it will get better but I do not believe that. It may be different but I do not think it will be better. What do say on this site? Where do go to? What topic or forum should I participate in?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/25/09 07:45 AM
Originally Posted By: Energizer Bunny
Another one I hear recently was "Be The Duck."

I had to ask what that meant.

It means let the water just roll right off of your back.



I like it. laugh
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/25/09 07:49 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Gosh the last two nights were fabulous. We were closer as a family than we've ever been since H left. Two birthday celebration nights for S (now 5) and H was very calm and sweet.

H DIDN'T YELL AT ALL TONIGHT - could be because my parents were around. Still felt nice.

H is looking at new apts. I'm confused. On the one hand, I know he won't consider moving back in for a while if at all due to the 5 months of therapy agreement -= and the apt he's looking at is right around the corner - very convenient! He says it's the same price as the studio he's now renting, but for a 1 bdr. makes sense.

But still sad, because it cements the idea that he's not even considering moving home. But I suppose moving closer is definitely improvement. Perhaps that is symbolic. Asked him to request month t0 month or a six month lease. He said "we'll see."

sigh. patience.


Hope,

I'm glad you had a couple good nights with your H. You deserved the break! Cherish those moments but don't put a lot of weight on what happened because you will wind up disappointed if you do. Again, don't believe anything your H says and only 50% of what he does.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/25/09 04:23 PM
Oh, BJ you are bursting my bubble! I was logging on to brag again! Day #3 and he was mellow, sane, open. We hung out on the couch all night (last week at this time, he stayed in separate rooms all night) and was way less tense and more open to negotiating the Fri night dinner thing. H was just his old self again. The nutcase vanished for a few magic days.

I know you are right I don't want to be disappointed - but I'm feeling so good right now. I will do as you suggest = enjoy the feeling for now, but not expect anything for the future.


@Mongoose = The best way to get a lot of support and feedback here is to start your own thread. In the meantime, I will say that when you are ready, you will be doing those things FOR YOU. I know it's so painful right now when you feel the sting of the loss. Keep getting out and having those good days. When the pain hits, know that you are still somebody important and special with or without her. Keep working on loving yourself, doing what makes you happy, filling up yourself with positive activities. Eventually, you will start to turn around.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/25/09 10:32 PM
bump
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/26/09 04:02 AM
H showed up again - we comprimised and gave up our Friday night dinners - just for this week (comprimise is a 180 - usually we fight) and yet H swung by to see S5 and to do a few computer things. H had a stressful day but did not yell at us. Seems the old man who hit H's car is denying there was an accident at all and refusing to pay. Usually H would take out his stress on me but didn't.

I was distant and more aloof than usual - because H is looking for a "new apt" tomorrow and I"m just fed up with all this limbo - like why doesn't he just move back he is spending all our savings on that dumb apt - but I have done enough DB to know he has to choose on his own time if and or when he wants to come back.

My 180- instead of fighting with him about the sitch - or pressuring, I just kept aloof. H asked "what's wrong - should I keep my distance?" I just said I was tired and worried about money. Besides that, all I can say is he noticed my aloofness. Even came back into the house "because he forgot something" after leaving - something he never does.

He prefers to upset the apple cart and leave screaming and with me trying to resolve things as he's storming out. I'd say I did a good 180 - I cut him off this time. This time, H even came back. He must have been wondering why I just didn't give a darn any more.

I guess that's good right?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/26/09 10:10 PM
bump
Quote:
I guess that's good right?


Seems like it if you are getting a different response...
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/26/09 10:22 PM
Sounds like it's working.

But here's the acid test...

Do YOU feel better this way than the old way?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/27/09 04:39 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
My 180- instead of fighting with him about the sitch - or pressuring, I just kept aloof. H asked "what's wrong - should I keep my distance?" I just said I was tired and worried about money. Besides that, all I can say is he noticed my aloofness. Even came back into the house "because he forgot something" after leaving - something he never does.

He prefers to upset the apple cart and leave screaming and with me trying to resolve things as he's storming out. I'd say I did a good 180 - I cut him off this time. This time, H even came back. He must have been wondering why I just didn't give a darn any more.

I guess that's good right?


Hope,

You are not being predictable, you are not giving him what he wants- attention -and you have him wondering what's up. Sounds good to me!
Posted By: C-Bart Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/27/09 04:41 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
My 180- instead of fighting with him about the sitch - or pressuring, I just kept aloof. H asked "what's wrong - should I keep my distance?" I just said I was tired and worried about money. Besides that, all I can say is he noticed my aloofness. Even came back into the house "because he forgot something" after leaving - something he never does.

He prefers to upset the apple cart and leave screaming and with me trying to resolve things as he's storming out. I'd say I did a good 180 - I cut him off this time. This time, H even came back. He must have been wondering why I just didn't give a darn any more.

I guess that's good right?


Hope,

You are not being predictable, you are not giving him what he wants- attention -and you have him wondering what's up. Sounds good to me!


So how do you keep calm? I've seen this work a couple of times with my sitch. But I'm so stressed out after.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/27/09 06:14 PM
Originally Posted By: C-Bart
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
My 180- instead of fighting with him about the sitch - or pressuring, I just kept aloof. H asked "what's wrong - should I keep my distance?" I just said I was tired and worried about money. Besides that, all I can say is he noticed my aloofness. Even came back into the house "because he forgot something" after leaving - something he never does.

He prefers to upset the apple cart and leave screaming and with me trying to resolve things as he's storming out. I'd say I did a good 180 - I cut him off this time. This time, H even came back. He must have been wondering why I just didn't give a darn any more.

I guess that's good right?


Hope,

You are not being predictable, you are not giving him what he wants- attention -and you have him wondering what's up. Sounds good to me!


So how do you keep calm? I've seen this work a couple of times with my sitch. But I'm so stressed out after.



C-Bart,

The short answer is that you have to detach and stop caring so much about how the other person is reacting. It's their problem, not yours. Once you reach the point where you are detaching, you will find that you won't be so stressed out afterwards.

Believe me, getting to the point of "mostly" detached or even "totally" detached is not easy. Certainly that was my experience as a Type A personality who is very protective of my W and a "fixer" by nature. I am not familiar with your sitch but it appears that you have been in the trenches a lot longer than me. Consider detachment. It's not going to eliminate all of the stress you are feeling but it will make things more manageable.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/28/09 01:45 AM
Well the screaming is back - in full force. Non=stop. I think this whole thing is not working for me.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/28/09 01:49 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Well the screaming is back - in full force. Non=stop. I think this whole thing is not working for me.


Boundary issue. If he starts screaming, you leave the room. Conversation over.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/28/09 02:09 AM
I'm giving up people. He's threatening a huge fight over divorce.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/28/09 04:11 AM
Ok, momentary down.

I'll keep going. It's the only way. Huge explosions this weekend - H is upset that someone hit his car and lied to the insurance that he wasn't involved. H has been obsessing and has been taking out a huge amount of anger on me and S.

I lost my temper at him - part of my 180's I'm not supposed to do - I just snapped.

We kinda sorta talked it out. I keep wondering if I really want to keep this marriage - and the answer is still yes, even with all the heartache. So, back to the drawing board.

H went to his apt tonight after putting S to bed - but I felt good that he kept his commitment to put S to bed. I did my 180 - the old me would have tried to beg him to stay and "talk" about what happened this weekend between us.

I just let him go and said, just go do what you need to do for yourself. I appologized and so did he. That's the best I'm gonna get, and I'm glad I got it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/28/09 04:13 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Well the screaming is back - in full force. Non=stop. I think this whole thing is not working for me.


Boundary issue. If he starts screaming, you leave the room. Conversation over.


Will do. Again. For the thousandth time.

I snapped this weekend - just couldn't take it any more.

But I'm crazy for thinking talking to him when he's like that is going to get me anywhere except in a deeper pit of h*ll.

Thanks for the reminder - after reading your post, I did just that. He continued to scream from across the house, chased me into my room, but I held firm and walked the other way. He eventually left.

That's when he threatened a big ugly divorce too.

However, he has since come to his senses, so it may not have immediately worked, but it did work eventually.

THanks = man, why do I need these obvious reminders? I do = for whatever reason.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/28/09 04:16 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn



Hope,

You are not being predictable, you are not giving him what he wants- attention -and you have him wondering what's up. Sounds good to me!



Thanks BJ! I'm going to keep it up. This is a good goal for me. It's satisfying when the "counter-intuitive" choice works!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/28/09 06:06 AM
Originally Posted By: Dia
Sounds like it's working.

But here's the acid test...

Do YOU feel better this way than the old way?


You bet. smile
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/28/09 06:12 AM
Originally Posted By: C-Bart

So how do you keep calm? I've seen this work a couple of times with my sitch. But I'm so stressed out after.


I've been working on it for a long time. I literally bite my tongue! I stop trying to focus on changing him and focus on myself. I remind myself I WANT TO STAY CALM and mentally talk myself down. I remind myself H is not rational at that moment and that saying anything will just escalate things -

then I try to get space and self soothe.

It's most challenging when in front of S5. I want to stay in the room and protect my S. Sometimes I take S into the other room. But mostly I look into his little eyes and think that I want to role model something more mature than what H is possessed by.
Sorry you had some downs last night. They ARE going to happen though. The overall average over the past 4-5 days sounds like there has been a lot of progress though. Both for you and your H


Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
However, he has since come to his senses, so it may not have immediately worked, but it did work eventually.


Nice! Always good to see that things work. I keep saying that it's like "fuel" to keep you going.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
THanks = man, why do I need these obvious reminders? I do = for whatever reason.


We all do. That's why we're here. We need the support and help from people who can relate. It's hard to find people that 'get it' if they haven't been there. That's what this board is for. The venting, support, and reminders.

You're doing great. You may want to go look at some of your first posts and see how far you've come!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/28/09 06:41 PM
I did look back at the beginning of my thread per your suggestion - ack, have I changed at all? The same patterns/issues are on the table, I guess my handling of them are evolving. But H's anger, the stress over dinner with S5, the constant criticisms about the house are still in my face whenever H is around. The changes are
- me staying calm
- me doing things for me
-more talking between H and me
- some good times as a family
- I've gotten a few appologies.

This is like swimming in molasses, isn't it? I need some more radical 180s to get this moving - any ideas, folks?
You're staying calm, walking away, having multiple "good" days with H, and gotten apologies. This seems like a lot of change in the little over a month that you have been on this board.

You even sound stronger in your posts.

Give yourself some credit
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/28/09 08:54 PM
THanks EB! In all my venting, I forgot to mention the biggest improvement of all!

I got acknowledgement for my changes.

H has been obsessed with a minor car accident that occured last week. To make a long story short, an elderly man hit H in a parking lot, tried to escape, evaded the insurance co. calls and finally got his car fixed and said he had no idea what H was talking about.

H in his normal rage-filled way has been obsessed with vengence fantasies for this guy all weekend. H says it's not the money, it's that H wants to make a point to the guy that he can't escape the truth.

I asked if this is how he feels about me - (like he wants the legal sep. to "make a point" and get me to "face up to things").

He ACKNOWLEDGED that I'm different. I have apologized, owned up to my part in things, taken responsibility. That guy isn't.

Yeah!

Also - a small detail but I noticed - H showed up this afternoon unannounced presumably he "forgot something" but he has never done this. He is coming over tonight so why would he swing by in the afternoon? H is not conscious of it, but obviously more comfortable coming and going - like this is his home.

He also ate a quick lunch here - he often rejects food here.

Baby steps!
Sweet!

Celebrate the baby steps. Keep the expectations in check.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/29/09 12:55 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Well the screaming is back - in full force. Non=stop. I think this whole thing is not working for me.


Hope,

You know, thinking back to those days whenever my kids did that to me I just reached for the binky. You know, the big soft chewy kind. Shut 'em right up and before I knew it, it was nappy time for Junior. grin
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/29/09 03:17 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Well the screaming is back - in full force. Non=stop. I think this whole thing is not working for me.


Hope,

You know, thinking back to those days whenever my kids did that to me I just reached for the binky. You know, the big soft chewy kind. Shut 'em right up and before I knew it, it was nappy time for Junior. grin


So....do they come in mansize? If only I could shove something in that nasty mouth and put him to sleep!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/29/09 05:50 AM
smirk Oops, sorry, the above post sounded filthy. I didn't mean it "that way!"
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/29/09 05:46 PM
bump
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
smirk Oops, sorry, the above post sounded filthy. I didn't mean it "that way!"


I'm glad that I wasn't the only one who thought of an "alternative" meaning to your response.

I had to fight off some comments that I thought would have been really funny...although slightly off color. wink
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/30/09 12:01 AM
Originally Posted By: Energizer Bunny
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
smirk Oops, sorry, the above post sounded filthy. I didn't mean it "that way!"


I'm glad that I wasn't the only one who thought of an "alternative" meaning to your response.

I had to fight off some comments that I thought would have been really funny...although slightly off color. wink


Well, it wouldn't offend me. Sense of humor of all colors always welcome! LOL
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/30/09 12:49 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
smirk Oops, sorry, the above post sounded filthy. I didn't mean it "that way!"


Hope,

Yes I had some ideas of my own after that comment. grin It's all good... you are among friends here.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/30/09 04:14 AM
Wow, first day I have hardly thought about H. Far cry from the obsessive fears I've had the past month. After the awful weekend of him constantly criticizing me, I was just glad he was gone.

DB says it's good to detach, know your boundaries, know you can live without them. Scared if I get too used to this feeling, I may prefer it. GIMA, I know you know the feeling.

Do you ever wonder if D is for the best? At least the abuse stops. Or is this detachment and acceptance of separation a stem toward finding peace in oneself, which ultimately brings us closer together. Ugh.

It's an inner attitude I'm asking about - obviously a lot of the DB techniques are external - to affect S: 180's, being unpredictable, GAL, going dark, etc. ...
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/30/09 10:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
DB says it's good to detach, know your boundaries, know you can live without them. Scared if I get too used to this feeling, I may prefer it.

It's OK if you prefer it because you should never go back to anything that's bad for you. That doesn't mean there isn't hope for your marriage, just not for the old marriage, right?

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Do you ever wonder if D is for the best? At least the abuse stops. Or is this detachment and acceptance of separation a stem toward finding peace in oneself, which ultimately brings us closer together. Ugh.

Finding peace in oneself makes us whole. We can't successfully live with another if we can't live by ourselves. We can't successfully love another if we can't love ourselves. The point isn't whether D is right its that you'll be happy, healthy and strong no matter which path your marriage ultimately follows.
Posted By: dolphin_05 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/30/09 11:00 AM
Originally Posted By: RedSoxFan

Finding peace in oneself makes us whole. We can't successfully live with another if we can't live by ourselves. We can't successfully love another if we can't love ourselves. The point isn't whether D is right its that you'll be happy, healthy and strong no matter which path your marriage ultimately follows.


Well said RSF!

Cas
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/30/09 01:11 PM
Hope,

Thanks so much for stopping by my thread. I appreciate your support and am part way through reading your thread. I agree that our sitchs are very similar.

Thanks for the confidence boost!

Day by Day
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/30/09 04:37 PM
RSF - thank you! That is well said. I did find inner peace for the first time in a while, so that is a success no matter what! Thanks for reminding me about the new R vs. the old R. H is trying to suck me into the old R - or even a new one that is far more negative - to justify his leaving. I can choose to not engage in that R.

DBD - I also wanted to let you know my H is very defensive and angry like your H. I think they are defending against knowing that what they are doing is hurtful and want to blame us instead of looking at their own behavior. Hopefully, separation and detachment (GIMA is great on this one) can leave them only looking at themselves.

H is coming home tonight after two peaceful nights without him. Gotta work the GAL and the detachment. I will look good (dying my hair today) and I will go out as soon as he arrives. I'm going to a support group and after that I will retreat to my room instead of sticking around the same room as H. This will be a 180 from my usual available behavior and will also be to protect myself from his anger should it return with a vengance.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/30/09 06:46 PM
Not doing so great today - obsessing about H too much - have to get on with my day. Got all caught up scanning his twitter for the girls in his role playing groups.

Called H last night - no answer. Called again today and got a cold "you didn't ask for a callback last night - I'm busy with work right now can we talk later?"

Feeling crappy about contacting him. Feel crappy when I don't initiate contact, but crappier when I do and get no response. Guess I've gotta stop those calls!
I don't have any great advice, but I am with you today.

I am overanalyzing a snippy comment on my way out this morning. I want to call her. I want her to go away. I'm afraid she if off looking at houses to move to again today.

What can we do to take our minds off of this stuff?

Read any good books lately? I'd challenge you to an online game somewhere, but I don't even know where to start.
Quote:
Feeling crappy about contacting him. Feel crappy when I don't initiate contact, but crappier when I do and get no response.


Yes, don't call unless you absolutely have to. It will help your self esteem. All of the really bad calls I've had where I felt like I was in an emotional dump after were when I called my W hoping to initiate some great conversation.

The only good calls we've had was when she called me.

Plus, think of it this way, you are feeding his ego with these calls. If you stop them then he'll start wondering what's going on. You'll flip the script on him.
Posted By: dolphin_05 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/30/09 08:16 PM
Hope, leave him to call you. Then you know for sure it's a good time for him and you can't be annoying him.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 09/30/09 08:33 PM
Thanks, people. What would I do without you? Calls will stop. Will tolerate the anxiety of not connecting. And, you are right - the last two days when he did call in the afternoon he had a very nice tone of voice.

Hey EB - the online games I usually play are on facebook -= are you interested in doing that? Otherwise, I'll research a more annonymous website to play games on this evening.

What do you like to play? I usually play scrabble or backgammon, but I'm up for anything!

We could also agree to read the same book? Not a self-help one! What do you like to read?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/01/09 02:33 AM
Quote:
Finding peace in oneself makes us whole. We can't successfully live with another if we can't live by ourselves. We can't successfully love another if we can't love ourselves. The point isn't whether D is right its that you'll be happy, healthy and strong no matter which path your marriage ultimately follows.


Well said RSF!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/01/09 04:13 AM
Amazing baby steps here. H has been calm and polite for three days now. Granted two of them he wasn't here - smile but on the phone he was the "old" H I used to love. Today when he came over to be with S5, H has been calm and polite. Not at all the critical, angry bull-in-a-china-shop he's been since the bomb. That's two days last week, and three this week. Improvements! And bliss.

Probably realizes he was a major a**hole on Sunday when he erupted to new hellish heights, threatening the ungliest D the world has ever seen. If he has any sense (which I have doubted lately) he would feel a bit guilty about that terrible uproar and could be trying to make up for it. He doesn't usually feel the need to make up for anything, however, so who knows.

Or, perhaps he's actually gradually, slowly calming down.

Or, the legal sep. papers are on their way, and he's buttering me up.

Who knows. I'm just glad for the peace. Like I said, I;ve been feeling a lot more peaceful on my own as well.

BTW, a great book I found out about on these boards is "How To Improve Your Marriage Without Talking ABout IT."
It has given me some insight as to why my H may be so full of anger and blame - it's actually shame/inadequacy based. For feeling like a "failure" in our M. Also H would not understand my (natural female) fear of abandonment and isolation. Talks about how men deal with shame by "fight/flight" which triggers female's fear of isolation and round and round we go. It just makes sense to me why he would be a WAS (flight) and be so rageful (fight) and why my efforts to talk it out (go to the therapy, explain/defend myself in the face of his rage) would pressure him to feel like "something's wrong with him."

I don't know if I'm making any sense, but it seems to fit with our situation fairly well - most helpful is that this perspective helps me deal with my anxiety of him being gone, separated, and leaving S5 and I.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/01/09 05:47 AM
Before bed -
Got home from my support group - told H about what it brought up for me. H listened. Ended by telling him that I realize these things I"m working on affected our marriage negatively because i was in denial about them - I wanted him to notice that I AM working on these things - not just blaming him. H said "it affected a lot more than that." - with a bit of an outburst. When I asked "like what?" H shut down and said he "had a lot of things to do" but would talk to me another time about it. I left it alone and said, "ok." 180 - I would usually in the past not let it go - wanting the discussion then and there, since it obviously brought up feelings for him.

H was a bit snippy about this - however, not his usual rage so I was glad for that.

Now he's talking to his brother about a bunch of blather on the phone - and so why is this so important? More important than talking to me? Ugh. This is me trying to be too pushy. That will only backfire. So I retreated to bedroom to do some sewing - FOR ME.

Oh well, no pushing for R talks. Heck, I probably shouldn't have brought it up at all. But it's killing me that I'm doing all this work to change with no recognition from H. I guess the babysteps are the recognition.

Still glad he's here, still glad he's been calm. It's no my endgoal by any means - that would be some serious intimacy and working on our issues. But I am grateful for what I have tonight - H in the house, and peaceful. That is a positive step.

It's killing me that we aren't having "light, positive,fun time" together - watching tv or doing anything in the same room together - but that's just me having expectations. Trying to not pressure him so it's relaxing when H is here so that he feels comfortable returning. That's my immediate goal. I just wish there weren't so much distance and silence bettween us. Oh well. Sitting still.

I returned to the bedroom (H is in the living room) and told him to just find me if/when he's done and wants to talk. That's good, my 180.

Posted By: dolphin_05 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/01/09 07:00 AM
Good for you Hope, nicely done! More power to those 180s
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/01/09 12:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Before bed -
Got home from my support group - told H about what it brought up for me. H listened. Ended by telling him that I realize these things I"m working on affected our marriage negatively because i was in denial about them - I wanted him to notice that I AM working on these things - not just blaming him. H said "it affected a lot more than that." - with a bit of an outburst. When I asked "like what?" H shut down and said he "had a lot of things to do" but would talk to me another time about it. I left it alone and said, "ok." 180 - I would usually in the past not let it go - wanting the discussion then and there, since it obviously brought up feelings for him.

H was a bit snippy about this - however, not his usual rage so I was glad for that.

Now he's talking to his brother about a bunch of blather on the phone - and so why is this so important? More important than talking to me? Ugh. This is me trying to be too pushy. That will only backfire. So I retreated to bedroom to do some sewing - FOR ME.

Oh well, no pushing for R talks. Heck, I probably shouldn't have brought it up at all. But it's killing me that I'm doing all this work to change with no recognition from H. I guess the babysteps are the recognition.

Still glad he's here, still glad he's been calm. It's no my endgoal by any means - that would be some serious intimacy and working on our issues. But I am grateful for what I have tonight - H in the house, and peaceful. That is a positive step.

It's killing me that we aren't having "light, positive,fun time" together - watching tv or doing anything in the same room together - but that's just me having expectations. Trying to not pressure him so it's relaxing when H is here so that he feels comfortable returning. That's my immediate goal. I just wish there weren't so much distance and silence bettween us. Oh well. Sitting still.

I returned to the bedroom (H is in the living room) and told him to just find me if/when he's done and wants to talk. That's good, my 180.

Nice! Good for you!!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/01/09 05:11 PM
Yes, I've gotten hugs the last two nights as well smile

THanks for the kudos. Keeps me on track!
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Hey EB - the online games I usually play are on facebook -= are you interested in doing that? Otherwise, I'll research a more annonymous website to play games on this evening.

What do you like to play? I usually play scrabble or backgammon, but I'm up for anything!


I haven't played facebook games. I like scrabble. I'm up for most things, but I'd need to take a crash course in a lot of it.

Yahoo games has a bunch of online multiplayer stuff: http://games.yahoo.com/multiplayer-games
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
We could also agree to read the same book? Not a self-help one! What do you like to read?


Reading a book will be good. If we're going through the same one we'll keep eachother going. It will give us something to chat about too.

What do you think about Dan Brown's Lost Symbol? Or Mitch Albom's Have a Little Faith? Maybe something funny? I'm open.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/02/09 03:06 AM
I knew the nice H wouldn't last. Mr. Hyde is back. H yelled at S5 at dinner, I asked him not to raise his voice at S (as I've asked a thousand times) and H starts yelling at me. I tried all my boundary setting phrases ("you will not talk to me like that - please leave - we can talk about this later when we're calm - you are being mean, now stop it - " and many more. Only enraged H more.

DB lesson - what isn't working: setting boundaries. Need to say nothing or leave. That's my plan next time.

H got enraged, stormed out of dinner, called me every name in the book. Called me crazy. Told me I always have and will be crazy and the problem is me and that is why he's taking care of Ding me. Told me I live in my own warped universe and nobbdy will ever understand me. He refuses to listen to or talk to me about this issue because there's no point talking to a crazy person. Threatened to up the D stakes again - said I can talk to his L instead of him. Then said I was threatening him (by setting the boundary of stop yelling and insulting or leave). He just went off his rocker.

I took a time out - a drive in the neighborhood - and then we all went to the pumpkin patch because we promised S5, and things mellowed a little.

I'm at my wits end. Only thing to do is avoid him, not talk to him. I WILL NOT INITIATE AN APOLOGY OR TALK. Either he will or I will wait until he goes to MC if he ever gets there. I cannot talk to him wihtout him being abusive, so unless he approaches me, this will be my 180.

I'm hiding in my room as H puts S to bed, tremendously sad. H is whistling and laughing and joking around like nothing happened. I guess I need to face that D is the for the best if he's not willing to be mature and kind.
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/02/09 03:43 AM
Hi, Hope,

Verbal abuse can be very intractable. I would actually suggest IC for you and your son whether or not your H goes and whether or not he does IC himself.

Edit: Apologies if you're already in IC and I just missed it. Crazy long work week for me. TGIF tomorrow!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/02/09 03:46 AM
THX, Dia. I'm in IC. My H will not allow S to go. Once we are legally sep., however, I can choose where to spend my half of the money.


Every fiber in my being wants to go into the living room and "explain", "make up" etc - but that is one of the "cheeseless tunnels" I go down. He needs to come to me. I just know that he wont. He'll avoid me all night and then he's gone all weekend. Why I want to in there to a person who says such horrible things I do not know. Until then, I'm sitting still. It's very hard.
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/02/09 03:55 AM
Are you documenting his outbursts?

IMHO, you should. Dates, frequency, duration, specific things he says, whether or not he slams stuff, throws things, etc.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/02/09 05:59 AM
THank you Dia. Good idea. I will!

Doing my 180 helped - he actually apologized to me. That is a first!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/03/09 12:38 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
BTW, a great book I found out about on these boards is "How To Improve Your Marriage Without Talking ABout IT." It has given me some insight as to why my H may be so full of anger and blame - it's actually shame/inadequacy based. For feeling like a "failure" in our M. Also H would not understand my (natural female) fear of abandonment and isolation. Talks about how men deal with shame by "fight/flight" which triggers female's fear of isolation and round and round we go.


Hope,

I'm sorry to hear about your H's latest blow up. Good grief! In lieu of an adult sized binky perhaps some warm milk in a sippy cup might calm him down. Sounds like you are hanging in there though.

Regarding the above book- I'm not familiar with it- what does it say about WAWs like my W? Do the feelings of abandonment still apply (since they are self-inflicted to some degree) or are there other more prominent feelings? Would be curious to know.

I'll try to check up on you later. Have a great weekend.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/03/09 04:20 AM
Bj - good question. I believe the premise is that the female's biggest fear is of abandonment and isolation, and the male's is shame and inadequacy. I don't think one necessarily starts the process, but that the two play off of each other. "Her anxiety causes his shame and his shame causes her anxiety."

I guess the idea is that the woman eventually keeps exposing her vulnerability to her husband, which is what girlfriends do, and this triggers his feelings of failure as a husband, so he shuts down in "shame-avoidant behavior: inpatience, distractedness, defensiveness. resentment, anger, criticism, or advice that sounds like telling her what to do.
" AFter a wile, a woman will stop exposing velnerability to the man in her life and turn more to friends, allowing the emotional void in their relationship to fill with resentment. (She) doesn't know it, but she already has one foot out the door."
Sorry for the quotes = but I'm still reading the book so I thought this might help. I like the book - may be worth a read. I got it at the library.

I'll check up on your sitch too.

Tonight, enjoying detaching. Enjoying S5 blissfully jumping on the rocket-ship-jumpy-thingie at the local pumpkin patch. His reading is just blossoming so we spent all night reading together. We enjoyed ice cream and sunshine - I am feeling more and more at peace.

H has been exploding worse, but less frequently and with more calmness in between. I ultimately see this as progress, however hellish the blasts are. I couldn't stand the nightly barrage of criticisms. These seem to be fading (knock wood), with some new open talks, lingering hugs, and apologies (interspersed with the nightmarish hell of volcanic eruptions that exude from him when he feels triggered.) Small openings followed by huge lockdowns. It's better than constant lockdown I guess.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/03/09 05:40 AM
Hope,

Thanks for the information. Sounds like you had a good night.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/03/09 06:19 AM
Yes - more peaceful when Beauty is alone without the Beast! lol
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/03/09 11:16 PM
Update
H said he's been "burnt out" and knowing that this contributes to his screaming addiction, I told him last night that he could have whatever space he wanted this weekend, andI'll have S5 the rest of the time. What else can I do? I don't want to resist the sep. I want to show him that I'm fine without him and not pressure him. Also, I fear more outbursts, so I'm letting him make his own choices so he can't blame me. The problem is that he is trying so hard to avoid me. It hurts .He's constantly on the phone/web contraption, and says "I'll take S5 so you can go do other stuff. Well I don't want to do other stuff. I want my S to have "family time". But I am not going to pressure him to be with me if he isn't interested.

This is my 180 = from even a few weeks ago where I took every chance possible to be together as a "family." I am detaching more.

It's still hard, but I'm doing better. It hurts to have him always on the phone thing, not talking to me, or gone from the house. I know one reason he is "so stressed" is that he is a workaholic to avoid looking at the situation we're in!~!!

anyhow, trying to just not pressure him. It still hurts to see that when I pull back, he just doesn't notice or care. Maybe in months he will. Gosh I hope I can stand it.
Posted By: Mongoose27 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/03/09 11:41 PM
BUMP???? Curious!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/04/09 02:05 AM
Hi Mongoose - curious about what?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/04/09 08:39 PM
H told me he would be here at 1:15 - it's 1:40 now and no sign of him. It's really rude. I know if I bring it up, it will start a fight, but it's becoming a pattern. Anyone have advice?

I also know he is looking for new apts - why? When I wish so badly he was moving back here....
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/04/09 10:12 PM
H home. Me and my damn honesty - I told him I lost my phone - shoulodnt have. Ended up finding it under my bed.

In the mean time, got a whole lecture about this is why we need to have separate accounts because they are on his account and if anything happens it's on his shoulders, he's so responsible and I'm so irresponsible, etc.

I started to defend and explain myself. Instead I just said I'm willing to have a separate account if that makes it easier for him. Then more lectures on even setting up separate accounts is a pain for him and an invasion of his precious time. I said we all have to put up with things we'd rather not from others. And I SHUT UP AND WALKED AWAY.

Should have done that sooner, but hey at least I did it. And, I found my phone.

Hopefully next time I will just not say a word.

But progress - I didn't stand their and argue (too much).

I realize what comes out as criticisms from his mouth is him stressed out and worried about the house, the phones, the cars, etc that are financially more on his back than mine.

However, then he's spending money moving into a bigger apt., spending money on lawyers, etc...those are his choices. If he's so worried about his precious time and money - no, it's just anything that has to do with me that causes him time or money that he's against.

Calm...patience...silence...walking away....detaching....breathe

Just hating feeling like I'm not the person he wants to be with. If DB says to make yourself into that person, how do I do it?
Posted By: Mongoose27 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/04/09 11:39 PM
What does BUMP Mean when you put that in your responses??
Posted By: Mongoose27 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/04/09 11:46 PM
H4L I probably made my ex feel this way sometimes as well. Not the extent you are saying but I did make that mistake of bringing those things up to her and the reaction was that we were just not right for each other. Usually people that are so called very responsible use to give them order for themselves and in to a large degree validates their self worth. See I am responsible so I am good!! sort of thinking. I am not sure if you need to change but more of handle it differently so it does not become a recurring issue with you and your H. If it is an issue don't discuss it just do it and if he comments on that is not how he would have done it. Just tell him your right and I am working handling things for myself and it is helping doing it myself. Truth is I am not the best source for advice. I messed up a lost the best person I could have ever had. So take what I say with a grain of salt.
Posted By: Jman Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/05/09 12:47 AM
Hope,

Just remember your H is not rational right now..He is not making sense...Just like you said yourself you need to detach, detach, detach...Have you picked up that book Love must be tough? It really helps I have read the whole book and am reading it again.. Change and do things that you will be happy with yourself don't change in order for him or else you will resent him for it down the road..You should do the work to get your own cell phone acct, show yourself that you can do it..do things for yourself!!! I am not trying to come across mean or anything I know it can be difficult but it is necessary...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/05/09 01:37 AM
Hi MOngoose
"bump" means if you want people to read your thread and respond, it will bump your thread to the top of the list.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/05/09 03:20 AM
THanks, everyone. Yeah, there was today (as every day) a lot of "did you take care of this? Why didn't you take care of that? I know such and such wouldn't get done." It's absolutely demeaning. I'm way less organized than he is and he is an extremely anal retentive type a. I know I should be more on top of things, but it seems I'm always behind on something and he gets on my case.

Today was a more positive day, however, in that we TALKED about the things that needed to be done in a relatively calm way. Anyone who knows my sitch knows that H usually blasts me with anger and criticism, then blocks any talks. He actually stayed relatively calm and I kept validating and listening - "you're right", "thank you for the reminder" and eventually had to say what Mongoose suggested - "I'm working on these things and I appreciate the reminders and try to see that in the big picture, I am being more organized." H went off on a lecture as to why "the real world" works on deadlines with no slack - a constant criticism that I'm not in the "real world". Very hurtful. H said it would be a better role model for Z if I were more organized. I had to explain that for the one or two things he notices that slipped through the cracks, I'm organizing my son and my life every day. I get a lot of things done.

Well it was still hurtful that he is so unforgiving, but I did stand up for myself and then I just dropped it. Sure I need to work on being more organized. H needs to work on being more flexible and forgiving as well.
It sounds like he's still spending a lot time at your house.

I just got the Love Must Be Tough book. Only aout 100 pages in. I had to go to a Christian ookstore to get it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/05/09 05:25 AM
eb- you and I need a lot more of the Love Must Be Tough method. As a matter of fact sounds like your going out a lot the past few days is having a good effect in your M. Great job. I'm going to do the same.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/05/09 06:47 AM
OK, new start people. I need to up the ante. I need to do more looking good, being upbeat and postive, not letting him get to the negative relationship talks he tries to bait me into. I need to show I'm doing fine without him so he doesn't feel he can treat me like crap. Love Must Be Tough!

Monday -= he's coming over to have his night with S. I am going out for a couple hours, then I'm going to come home and look good and just keep it upbeat. I got about a c+ on that today, but could have done a lot better.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
eb- you and I need a lot more of the Love Must Be Tough method. As a matter of fact sounds like your going out a lot the past few days is having a good effect in your M. Great job. I'm going to do the same.


I haven't gotten too much from the Tough Love book so far. Honestly, I have seen the most significant changes in my sitch by being compassionate. I have told W that I can't imagine how difficult this is for her. I've told her that I am trying my best to understand. I've done more around the house and I've tried to stay out of the baited fights.

I don't know if it's tough love but I think that Coach really hit it head on with setting Boundaries. When I told my W the other day that I was preparing for her to be gone by developing a new life for myself (going out with friends etc.) I didn't do it in a mean manner at all. In fact, it was done with somewhat of a "Well, if you want to know the truth, I am trying to prepare myself for when you are gone. I had wanted my life to be our life together. With you leaving though, I realize that it's not turning out that way. I don't want to come home to an empty home and sit here by myself so I am developing a new life for myself." It was said with no anger or resentment at all. I set a boundary on going to her new place in a similar way too. Something along the lines of "I can't see myself having any interest in going to your place. This is a place that you will have chosen for your new life specifically to get away from me. It would be way to difficult for me to ever be comfortable spending time there."

It may not come across in typing, but it was said in a very gentle manner after months of being very compassionate and putting a lot of personal pride aside. I'm not saying that I disrespected myself, but I have made a point to evaluate my pride at times to see if it's rational.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/05/09 12:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
OK, new start people. I need to up the ante. I need to do more looking good, being upbeat and postive, not letting him get to the negative relationship talks he tries to bait me into. I need to show I'm doing fine without him so he doesn't feel he can treat me like crap. Love Must Be Tough!

Monday -= he's coming over to have his night with S. I am going out for a couple hours, then I'm going to come home and look good and just keep it upbeat. I got about a c+ on that today, but could have done a lot better.


Sounds like a great plan. I know it takes some effort, but just don't let him bait you into an argument. That's exactly what he wants b/c (a) that's how he communicates his unhappiness and (b) it helps him justify what he is feeling - "see, I am right to want to leave."
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/06/09 02:11 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
H went off on a lecture as to why "the real world" works on deadlines with no slack - a constant criticism that I'm not in the "real world". Very hurtful. H said it would be a better role model for Z if I were more organized. I had to explain that for the one or two things he notices that slipped through the cracks, I'm organizing my son and my life every day. I get a lot of things done.


Hope,

I may have missed this in your earlier posts- what does your H do for a living? Sounds like he is bringing his work home with him by making comments like that. What kind of role model is he referring to? The drill sergeant at boot camp role model? Good grief! I feel for you. BTW, I second what GIMA said above. Take care.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/06/09 06:08 AM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
\ what does your H do for a living? Sounds like he is bringing his work home with him by making comments like that. What kind of role model is he referring to? The drill sergeant at boot camp role model? Good grief! I feel for you. BTW, I second what GIMA said above. Take care.


Well that is an interesting point, BJ. He works for himself - he's a genius computer programmer. He works from home (wherever that is lately). Lately, he works until all hours of the night. Work never ends for him. I don't know if it's to pay for his new apt or just to keep busy.

I have wondered if it is a workaholic syndrome to avoid feelings or if he is truly that overburdened with work. I have a lot of empathy - he is a reliable provider and hard worker. However, he also admitted tonight that his stress levels have gotten so high he is thinking of going to a psychiatrist for a prescription to tranquilizers.

He has always had this anxiety problem - overly perfectionistic, over achiever - heck it's one of the reasons I fell in love with him early on - he accomplishes so much. However, lately I have come to feel so shut out by it all and he can't see the forest for the trees as he complains he never gets a second off. Is he just hiding from himself and his pain? I don't know.

On the other hand, he is the main breadwinner (I am the main homemaker and parent, and make about 15-20% of our income) so I understand the financial pressure is on his shoulders. I just wish he could relax sometimes and let his guard down. He can't just do it around me - he can't do it much at all.
Hope - I finally made it back to a computer. I'll finally be able to follow up on the links that you posted a couple of days back on my thread (games and article).
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/06/09 07:27 PM
EB Welcome back! How are you doing? Sounds good that you are getting out and GALing!

So - update. Things went pretty well last night with my new attitude. I was positive and upbeat when H came home. He was late and on the phone and the old me would have felt resentment - I just dealt with it, fed S, played with S until H was on the phone, said "no problem."

When I got home, I kept to myself and felt good. Then we had a big talk. H is getting a bigger apt with a lease. I stayed positive and told him I support him in doing what he needs to do to be happy. That was positive, esp. since the whole thing panics me to no end. I did voice that it scares me a little, but he was receptive.

Then more about the sep. papers. I did not handle that so well. I started to get emomtional and said why is he doing this is if he's nor ready for a D. etc. H was very calm and explained his thinking to me again, kind of a reminder of what he already had told me. It was positive that he was so calm and talked and listened. We stopped talking after a while.

Then back to Mr. Hyde. In a flash, he turns to me and yells about how I've taken up his time and he had hours of work to do and now it's bedtime and he shouldn't have to repeat himself to me and this is why he hates coming home. Then yelled about the carpet and why does he have to take care of everything and why can't I do anything.

Positive is that I stayed calm and just validated him. Offered to let him sleep in while I get up S in the morning.

The negative - what I need to work on - is that I told myself I would stay up beat and positive and I lost it. I should have just faked it and stopped myself and supporting his new apt and not getting into the talk of the legal sep. This opened the door to him making me feel worse after feeling better.

But I'll learn - be more positive next time. Keep these R talks to a minimum.

Also, I need to remember that when he has work to do, I just need to give him space. He won't be supportive when he's stressed about work.

The problem is, he is almost always working. Oh well. Space. Give him space.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/07/09 03:35 AM
Wow, space works.

After last night's talk about H getting a new and bigger apt with a lease, ( he has month to month now for a tiny studio I know he's not happy there, who would be?) I woke up depressed,but turned myself around and GAL! Got upbeat and positive!

Tonight is not H's usual night with S5, but came over anyhow to play! What a nice surprise. I had been upbeat with him on the phone earlier and whammo - he shows up at the door at 6pm. He was cheerful and fun and nice to both S and me. I gave them SPACE to play legos. H left at 7:30 - a good long visit. Wow, felt like old times.

Really hopeful again tonight smile. And it all started by me changin g to a PMA in the morning and just relaxing through the day - FOR ME. Yep, for me. I think I detached today! Woot~!
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/07/09 03:40 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Wow, space works.

Woke up depressed, turned myself around and GAL! Got upbeat and positive!

Tonight is not H's usual night with S5, but came over anyhow to play! What a nice surprise. I had been upbeat with him on the phone earlier and whammo - he shows up at the door at 6pm. He was cheerful and fun and nice to both S and me. I gave them SPACE to play legos. H left at 7:30 - a good long visit. Wow, felt like old times.

Really hopeful again tonight smile. And it all started by me changin g to a PMA in the morning and just relaxing through the day - FOR ME. Yep, for me. I think I detached today! Woot~!

Love it! Makes my night to hear it. Celebrate! Brace for his other behaviors to come back next time but keep doing what you're doing!!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/07/09 06:32 AM
RSF - yeah, I know about the pullback. It is imminent with my FIL coming to town next week. Grrrrr. However, yea, feeling good. Happy with myself and my life, and happy when H was here. I couldn't believe there was no yelling. Perhaps finally making progress with that!

H's night tomorrow night with S5 - I'll be hom at 7. I'll keep up the PMA and the happy light attitude. And if he's Mr. Hyde tomorrow - I"ll retreat to my room and do something to make my night a happy one.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/07/09 06:42 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
He works for himself - he's a genius computer programmer. He works from home (wherever that is lately). Lately, he works until all hours of the night. Work never ends for him.

Quote:
I have wondered if it is a workaholic syndrome to avoid feelings or if he is truly that overburdened with work.

Quote:
I have a lot of empathy - he is a reliable provider and hard worker. However, he also admitted tonight that his stress levels have gotten so high he is thinking of going to a psychiatrist for a prescription to tranquilizers.

Quote:
He has always had this anxiety problem - overly perfectionistic, over achiever

Quote:
Is he just hiding from himself and his pain? I don't know.


Hope,

I'm glad you shared the following observations. Speaking from personal experience, it is very possible that your H is dealing with very serious depression- which may or may not be work related. He may be trying to address his stress/depression by working more in an attempt to gain control over the situation. I can identify with your H now as there was a period in my life (which ended about 6 months before my W's EA began) in which I was operating in much the same way (I too am a Type A personality, hard working, perfectionist, overachiever, etc.)

Your H has forgotten that we work in order to live, not live to work. He has also forgotten the purpose behind why he works so hard- for his family! During the period in my life when I was in a similar situation as your H, I was only vaguely aware of the possibility that what I was dealing with was depression. It wasn't until I got out of the high pressure job I was in did I start to realize that I had been seriously depressed. I can also tell you that during that time I really was not sensitive to how I was reacting to my family. I was not always consciously aware of the tone I spoke in or how much I was hollering at my kids. I was really on edge. In my sitch, however, I didn't drink or engage in any inappropriate behavior to distract myself from my depression.

It sounds like the conversation he had with you about the tranquilizers would be a good place to start in discussing the likelihood of depression with your H. If your H would be willing to go, a family therapist might be the best place to start.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/07/09 07:50 AM
THanks so much BJ. Yes, I brought up depression and he immediately rejected the idea that this is depression. He is only aware of what he terms "anxiety." Even that he is aware of it is a step.

I agree it could be depression. He is quite isolated and with our separation he must be feeling awful.

I'm just finally getting atiny view into what's behind all the rage.

We start MC in a month or so, so it could be a time to bring it up.

you're exactly right when you say he has no idea of his tone or his yelling. Hard for me to believe, but he constently denies he is yelling. I think he honestly doesn't recognize it as he is cought up in whatever pressure he is under.

It's a vicious cycle - he is stressed b/c we have marital problems and he left - we are having marital problems and he's staying away because he's stressed. Ugh.

And yes, he works more to gain control. He is definitely trying to gain control in all areas. It def. signifies pain inside him - I just hope in MC he will finally open up a little to me and we can deal with what's inside.

Thanks for the perspective, it really helps. I'm opposite - I'm laid back, artistic, flexible - and I have no bones about talking about when I'm depressed. And I go and get help when I feel depressed. H holds it all in. I worry about him.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/07/09 07:01 PM
bump
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/07/09 07:28 PM
Hi Hope4Luv, I'm seeing another similiarity in our H's. Mine is also a workaholic and perfectionist.

I wanted to share some info I just got from my D13. She is concerned about H and she went to talk to the pastor. (She's probably going to grow up to be a counselor.) She came back with some very interesting info from him. The pastor said that the stonewalling is his way of dealing with his feelings by not dealing with them. The anger is easier to deal with than being sad and helps him feel in control. When D asks H about the situation, he just replies I love you and won't discuss it.

One thing he said she could do is mention to him that he seems sad or depressed. I also read this in one of the many books I'm reading... that you can be like a mirror and reflect what they are feeling, that "you look sad".

I do feel it is depression in my H's case too. Just wish he would recognize it instead of keeping himself so busy to numb himself.

Day by Day
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/07/09 09:24 PM
DBD thanks please keep me posted if this works for you. I may try it...
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/07/09 10:13 PM
Hope,

It is not easy for a man to admit to himself or to others that he may be dealing with depression. If he wants to term it "anxiety" then so be it. This is a serious issue and he needs to start addressing it right away through counseling along with perhaps some anti-depressants. He is likely not aware that everything that he is saying and doing is exponentially "more" than what he perceives, which in turn adds to his frustration when you react to him.

Feel free to tell him about me if you'd like- I'll correspond with him here if it would help your sitch. I will tell you that it might have made a difference in my current sitch if I had realized and addressed my spell of depression rather than it resolving itself after I left my old job. I'd hate to see him make the same mistake I did.

Speaking of work, break time is over. Catch you later.
Hope - so what's that book you have in mind?

I'm ready for some good comedy.
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/08/09 03:22 PM
Hope, how have things gone with communication between you?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/08/09 04:46 PM
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
Hope,

Feel free to tell him about me if you'd like- I'll correspond with him here if it would help your sitch. I will tell you that it might have made a difference in my current sitch if I had realized and addressed my spell of depression rather than it resolving itself after I left my old job.


BJ, that is so kind of you. H is a man that cannot admit a problem to his closest family or friends. He didn't even tell his family we were separated until recently - which is six months after he left. No way would he talk to an anonymous person. I wish to god he would! I appreciate your kind words they are helping to get me through this difficult time.

I know he has a horrible time admitting whatever he is going through - but he blames it on me and my presence. SEe below...any advice? I could use a male perspective here.

Last night he flipped out- burst into my room, blasted me, then stormed off and slammed the door "there will be no discussing this - you have to behave." My old cat had been in another home because he peed on the carpet years ago - but had to return recently. H started peeing on the carpet again. H threatened everything under the sun - I'm living the high life while he slaves away to pay for a house I am ruining. Meanwhile calling me crazy, a nutjob, dumb, etc.

I know he is panicked about the house, the separation, money, it's obvious why he's been so edgy. But he started saying he would have to sell the house and my son overheard - it was awful - how irresponsible I am and can't take care of "his only investment" so H wants to sell the house so he can buy his own condo while the markets are low - he's afraid that if he waits until a D is final, he won't be able to afford one.

I blew it. I'm supposed to stay calme. I did everything that makes things worse - I followed him into his office and wanted to talk things out. This enraged him more.

H said that if I want the arrangement where H comes to our place to stay with our son, I have to be gone the nights he's here - he said I should stay at his place "to see how it feels". He said he can't relax or feel like he has space in the house when I'm here, even if I'm just in my room with the door shut.

H is being completely unreasonable and enraged - as usual - and upping the stakes on me. I do not want my five year old staying someplace else until / if we finalize a D. He is too small and it would upset him way too much. But I don't want to be shoved out of my home because my H can't handle his feelings.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/08/09 05:45 PM
I'm giving up people. Going to NC.
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/08/09 08:26 PM
Good luck. I have since Monday and it's hard as hell. I'm worried about it since it's more of the same... neglect. But I'm tired of the hurt.

(((Hope4Luv)))
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/08/09 08:32 PM
I'm sorry, DBD. In your sitch it sounds like the best plan is to move on independantly if he is going to be so closed and rigid. My H has been waffling which makes my decision so hard.

I've avoided calling him today although I wanted to pick up the phone about five different times!
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/08/09 08:35 PM
Please smack me if I'm wrong... should I have let him know I wasn't going to show up at MC? It was probably rude.

Not that I can do anything about it now.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/08/09 09:05 PM
Hope
Hang in there. Sometimes the NC is just what they need to realize a life without you.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/08/09 10:34 PM
STronger - as if he cared...all I got was "Get the f*** away from me!"

DBD - I think in the state he is in now, why should you worry if YOU are rude? Isn't he being rude to you?
Posted By: RedSoxFan Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/09/09 01:27 AM
Hang in there Hope.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/09/09 03:02 AM
Hope,

Your H needs to get his a$$ to counseling now. He is not fully aware of the damage he is doing to himself and to his family. He may have an Old School mentality about this i.e. "real men learn to deal with their own problems" but it is B.S. I know because I have been there and I thought that same way for a long time!

There is nothing wrong about seeing a professional for a "second opinion" (the first opinion would be your H's) for his issues. This is NOT a sign of weakness... if anything it takes a bigger man to acknowledge that he needs help for something he can't deal with all by himself. If for nothing else, your H should do this for the sake of his 5 year old son!

He has demonstrated to you time and again that he is a talented man and fantastic provider for you and your son and for that you are very proud of him. Not addressing this problem runs contrary to his commitment to his family and high standards. This problem is impacting his productivity, his work product, his health and destroying his family. He can't reconcile this chaos with the man who he is and the standards he lives up to. HE CAN'T!

If he doesn't want to talk to an anonymous person- fine, I understand. So how about this: print this post out and stick it under his nose to read. Then, if he wants to argue with what I have written, have him scribble a reply back for you to post. And then I'll reply.

How do you like those bananas? grin
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/09/09 06:02 AM
I do like them bananas...and it makes a lot of sense to me. Fortunately, H has asked for some referrals to therapists, so I'm hopeful that he will get in there. He is too much of a perfectionist to admit he has problems, but that perfectionism is exactly the problem!

And, I appreciate your perspective that his problems are contrary to his high standards. Great perspective.

I'm very depressed and not feeling hope for love tonight. Perhaps some sleep will help me see the light.
I hope the sleep helped. I think you need to get out and do something fun. What kind of things are fun for you? What would be a good treat for Hope?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/09/09 04:18 PM
Well my friend invited me to the Renaisance Faire -= and since H banned me from attendance, could be a way for me to go and have fun...feeling really like I don't want to leave son to go and do that...it would be an all day thing...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/09/09 04:30 PM
This is not helping me stay calm - but I am trying so hard!
H went to a work conference last night then saw on his twitter he was at a bar! Then his car was gone this morning...
(he lives just down the street).

Fighting off the urge to freak out - it wouldn't hurt so much if he hadn't been so damn abusive the night before.

Sigh. If I want him back, I must not make a big deal about this AT ALL. So, on with my day...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/09/09 09:25 PM
Cleaned the refrigerator and shelves in the kitchen. Feeling productive. Helps with NC and self-esteem.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/10/09 02:05 AM
Again, amazing how space works.

Guess who came over tonight for a surprise drop in to visit S5, and was nice?

I showed him the deep cleaning I did for my FIL's visit this week, and he said the cat pee smell was almost gone. He could not argue with me about not taking care of the house tonight!

H started down a worry path about me moving the tv to get at the cat pee stain - freaking out about the wires, the tv's proximity to the window, etc, but he tried to keep himself under control. H was not yelling and angry about it, as I would normally expect.

The biggest relief was, no mention of how I'm not allowed in the house when he's here visiting with S and FIL - I didn't bring it up either. I have decided to give them lots of space, and even be prepared to walk away and leave if he gets upset about me being here - I have other gfs I can stay with. I'm hoping this was just something he was saying when he was angry -= and not something he's going to stick with. Either way, I'm prepared and not going to argue with him. I won't take that bait. If I had brought it up out of anxiousness, he would have definitely dug in his heels just to make a point! 180!

Weird scary thing - H, being a computer engineer, has a closet full of wires, plugs, etc. Unlike me, this Felix Unger type knows exactly where every nitpicky thing is. Yesterday, I had used a plug adapter on the carpet steamer that I used to clean cat pee - and accidentally returned it to Safeway with the steamer! Wouldn't you know that my H comes home TONIGHT and asks me where said adapter is! The very day it goes missing. He is scary psychic or something.

I kept quiet, but did not want an excuse for a fight. I'm going to safeway tomorrow to see if I an retrieve it - or just buy a new one. Whew - close one.

As things were calmer, I was dying to say ILU or hug him. He may have appeased me, but I don't want that kind of hug. I held back. Good for me!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/11/09 06:54 AM
sorry if it looks like I am just journalling lately - even if people are too busy for a response, I like to track my process. But I do miss you, friends~

Today -= the day my FIL arrived. The day I was supposed to "not be at home" because H is with family. So I GALed!

EB, do you hear that? I did something for me and I'm doing it again tomorrow~

Went out with friends all day, got invited over by another friend for dinner and girl's night. And not because I was "kicked out", but because I was having a life. So everybody wins - H got his space at home with S and FIL and I went out FOR ME.

And tomorrow - I'm going to the darn Rennaisance Faire. I kept waffling because FIL is here and I wanted to be with S and H, but I took your advice, EB, and said I'll go. My friend tonight lent me a great costume and that was my sign from the Universe to go out tomorrow and have fun for me.

Slowly slowly I"m trying to let go and detach.

Of course, no response from H. He's ignoring me. It hurts like anything. Trying to remember that this is for the long haul. Right?
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/11/09 05:20 PM
Sounds great Hope!! So glad to hear you had fun. Keep it up. smile
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/11/09 05:41 PM
What seems to be working iwth H is to listen and validate. I have to hold in my frustration that "it's all about him" right now. But H feels frustrated when I "don't understand him." So chatting lightly this morning went well as I listened and validated.
It sounds like you ad fun. Good for you!

You have to keep the long haul mentality. Good job recognizing that. It's hard to remember some times.

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

A really F-ing LONG marathon.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/12/09 05:33 AM
Last night, H just went to his room, no talk. Not even good night. This morning, I just cheerily went about my business, got dressed for the Ren. Faire. It's just body languange, but it's noted - he actually approached me and stood by me and chatted while I got ready in the bathroom. Baby steps.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/12/09 06:20 AM
Hope,

How was the Ren. Fair? Are they still holding it out in Novato? Hope you had a fun day today.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/12/09 06:24 AM
BJ - I hadn't been in years - since it was in Novato. They hold it in Gilroy now. Luckily, my friend drove smile. We had fun, wore costumes, drank cider, enjoyed the parades and shows....the whole bit. It was a good GAL day with a gal pal. Did I just say that?
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/12/09 03:59 PM
Yay! Happy for you Hope.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/13/09 05:49 AM
bump
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/13/09 06:05 AM
Hope,

Good to hear you had a good time this weekend- even if you had to suffer the drive down to Gilroy. As for me, I went out on the Bay this past Saturday with a couple of friends on a sailboat to watch the Blue Angels. They performed a little bit before they had to shut things down due to the fog. But it was a good male bonding experience nonetheless. And a good reason to get away from my W too.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/13/09 06:19 AM
That was my intention too, BJ. Female bonding and getting away from H. The Bay sounds fabulous. I absolutely adore boating. Hope you got to see the Blue Angels the first time around!

Things have been polite here - until tonight.

H says he's taking S to the submarine tomorrow with fil. I said I would like to tag along if that's ok. H says he doesn't know. I say why? H says "I don't want to drive so many people in my car." I say well we can talk about a real reason he doesn't want me there, or else I would like to go, I don't want to be home all day alone and it's my night with S.

H snaps, raises voice "Stop bugging me at 11 pm at night!" I have been prepared not to take his abusiveness any more. I got up and left the room.

I come back to get computer and say there is a nicer way to say that. H barks, "Maybe there is but stop bugging me at 11pm at night!" (again). He says it's "not his problem if I can't take a hint and I ask him five times."

So instead of buying it, I say, "well I haven't gotten a clear answer".

H says he doesn't know if he wants me to go or not. I decide inside that it's not all about what he wants. Then I let it go and left the room.

I should have been more upbeat and let it go. It's true asking five times doesn't get the clarity I'm looking for, it gets me abused. I guess what I was doing was pushing and pursuing - a litte. But I am trying to hold the balance between that and not letting myself be controlled by his abusive behavior.

But I did what I had to - I stayed calm, and I walked away. Now I'm in my room alone. And unless H can clearly explain his feelings to me, I am going to stick to what I want. I won't push it if it's a problem, but he needs to talk to me, not be verbally abusive.

How do you think I did people? Progress? smile
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/13/09 02:21 PM
Nope, not progress.
Now you should go back and tell him you don't want to go after all because you came up with something better to do.

Understand this: He does not want you there. He just decided to not completely crush your feelings by saying as much. Yes, they are monsters and aliens in their current MLC or WAS fogs, but parts of the "real and old" them exist. And it was the "real and old" H that didn't want to hurt your feelings and gave you the lame excuse of not wanting too many people in his car.

You may want to go to this event, but he obviously doesn't want you there. So screw that. You take advantage of the day off from S and go do something for you, even if it's just sitting at home relaxing. Clean some more cat pee, I don't know but do something for you, just for you and don't mope.

You see positive results from distance. You've learned this over and over with your H. Then, you get that positive response and go running to him and push for more. Instead this time, give distance again. Get your positive response but this time give MORE distance and maybe see if the next positive response isn't even bigger. That would be my next experiment.

You said you "won't push if it's a problem....". You did push and it was a problem. I would have asked him "Hey if you want I wouldn't mind coming with you to help out with S in case you and FIL want some male bonding time....if not, I have some things I could and need to get done, but it's not urgent."

You pushed and he shoved back. Let this one go and work on some distance which you've seen positive results afterward.
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/13/09 03:20 PM
Hope,
I feel Stronger's advice also applies to what I experienced last week. I asked probably three times about the concert tickets. The first two answers were ambivilent, but the third was angry. Guess I was pursuing. I also asked him to be upfront with me and let me know... then the angry answer. Pretty dumb on my part--what answer was I expecting to hear? I'm trying NC now and giving him space and trying not to care about anything that involves him.

I'm waiting to see what results I get from it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/13/09 07:36 PM
Ok Stronger. I hear you. Thanks for the 2x4.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/13/09 07:54 PM
Ok, here's what I'll do.

Tomorrow I was invited to go to the Space Museum with H and FIL also b/c "S wants me there". I'm going to say I have other things to do.
Posted By: undrdg Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/13/09 08:17 PM
Hope
Are you always available for him? If so then your plan is a good one.
However if you aren't you should go.
On the flip side, it is a family affair, so it might be in the family's best interest if you do go.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/13/09 08:58 PM
Undrdg - exactly. It's very confusing.

Originally, one of H's big complaints was that I was always gone - doing theatre at night and on weekends. H wanted me to stop and be home. I've done that. Last week he blew up at me saying he needed more space. I think I went from never being available to always being available. So I'm trying to find a balance. I also think that S needs to have family time, but of course without tension.

I was gone all weekend - literally - to give H space with FIL and S. Coming today is the first time I've spent time iwth family in a week or so.

I don't want to pressure H, but I also want to show I'm not abandoning the family, as H felt I did in the past. Sigh.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/13/09 09:37 PM
Ok, if you were invited, then go if you want to. What I'm saying is you can NOT invite yourself even if you think it is family time. If you don't want to go, then don't. But if you were invited, you want to go, go.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 12:08 AM
Yes, I didn't tell the whole boring story - we discussed doing some things as a family, and some things independently, and I have spent zero time as a family with FIL. Frankly, I don't enjoy spending time with FIL - he yells and doesn't listen - big surprise - but I am holding family time as sacred for S. It was just a discussion on which day was family day. I was not inviting myself per se.

My question about tonight also lay in that tonight is my night with S. (H has S yesterday and today) so it was clear that I wanted to be there with S.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 02:02 AM
Hope,

Was the sub S and H were going to go visit the S.S. Pampanito (sub anchored at Fisherman's Wharf?) If so, it is a fun tour. Done it several times with my sons. Definitely a guy thing.

Good feedback from Stronger and the others. Not justifying H's behavior towards you but given his current condition I can see why he was snapping at you- to him, you probably came across as badgering him. When you have conversations with him about anything, try to follow a rule of "once and done". In other words, limit him having to repeat himself or having the two of you rehashing things more than once in conversations. When you are where he is at, these are the types of things that you have a low tolerance for. (Speaking from experience and I know you probably recognize.)

Another thing to keep in mind is to follow the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) in your dealings with your H. Don't make anything overly complicated. If you come to your H with a problem, try to have a couple of proposed solutions for him to consider.

Just a couple of thoughts to consider. Gotta run. I'll catch up with you later.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 04:22 AM
BJ you are right! And I've been sizing my conversations waaaay down. I've got to get it to one sentence "once and done" is great.

I actually have been doing this alot - from one of the books I read, I learned that men prefer to not talk things to death, and women do because that is how we connect. I did really well today with keeping things KISS when we spoke. I actually feel good about today.

It rained a ton (BJ you must know this if you live in the Bay Area) so we never went to the sub. Yes, that one at fishermen's warf is the one. H gets annoyed if I propose any solutions, so I just let him decide what he wanted to do with S and FIL. H said come to the house. At first, I played with S so FIL and H could talk - and we all had dinner which went smoothly and then after a glass of wine we all were joking around and laughing at South Park jokes, etc. Stupid, but it was really good to be light and laughing. This makes being home a positive thing.

H and FIL went into SF to have dinner with BIL and H won't be here until tomorrow. The plans are up in the air depending on weather, but we agreed just to talk tomorrow. I'm keeping focused on my plans unless I"m invited.

I fail to see how asking about the plans is badgering him, however, I did see the futility in talking late at night if he wasn't in the mood or knowing what he wants. I did walk away and just go to bed and take care of myself - later he came in and invited me.

Sigh. Hard to see how we will ever get along again, let alone get back together. Still, doing way more detaching and GAL than previously.
Posted By: MrBond Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 08:26 AM
"I fail to see how asking about the plans is badgering him, however, I did see the futility in talking late at night if he wasn't in the mood or knowing what he wants."

It was just the timing and the number of times you asked. For the WAS, once is enough. Besides they don't really care about the LBS.

Think of it this way...he currently has the power in the R. Imagine it like a big crown on his head. The key is to get that power away from him. How do you do that? By leaving him alone. But not for the sake of sulking or "giving him space". It's for you to enrich your life.

The next time you are with him, go out. Dress up. Put on makeup and just tell him you're going out. Don't have to tell him with whom or where. Just tell him 'bye. A couple of weeks of that and he's going to start questioning things.

The power then gets transferred to you. Get that control back. In terms of what you've tried, DB says to try things out for at least 2 weeks. Have you journaled anything?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 03:32 PM
I love the crown image - H really does walk around with this sense of entitlement. I am not supposed to ask, propose, suggest anything.

So be it.

I am getting it about grabbing my power back. Like I said, I'm struggling with the fact that he left BECAUSE I was going out, getting dressed up, doing my own thing, etc. I don't want to do my old behaviors.

But there is still a way to just keep busy with my own plans and not ask anything of him. If he invtes me, that is a different story. Otherwise, he needs to see I"m ok with the separation.

I forgot the thing about the 2 weeks. I felt so proud of myself that I did my own thing this weekend - and that is obviously not enough time.

Has anyone else had success with the GAL for two+ weeks?
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 05:08 PM
Sure lots of people.

You need to figure out what times of the day are best to speak with H. For example, my H is best after activity, like the gym or golf. I don't bother trying to talk to him at work or while he's golfing or right before bed.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 07:41 PM
Good point stronger. My H is notoriously a bear when working. Also late at night.

H called today to ask about details for the museum he and FIL are taking S to (yes, I said I was busy and couldn't go!). I gave him said info - briefly and to the point. H still very growly and intense sounding - brought me down after having felt good and independent all morning. Went for some exercise immediately, felt better.

There I was doing everything I was supposed to do - and H was still angry at me. Ugh.

Oh well, I'll give this 2+ week thing a try.
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 07:51 PM
Aren't they supposed to get a bit angry because things aren't going their way and you are getting more control?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 09:03 PM
DBD - who knows. When H has control, he's angry. When he doesn't have control, he's angry. He's just angry.

It's hard to know which advice to take - I guess it's an intuitive thing as each of us knows our relationships best.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 09:22 PM
Yes it is. But really for you, wouldn't it be better for him to be the big cry baby and pissy because you didn't give him control? If he's going to be an a$$ no matter what, then you might as well let him be an out of control of you a$$.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 09:26 PM
Yes, letting him be his own out of control a$$ is a good idea. So, I'm laying low until we get into MC as he has promised within the next month. H is coming over tonight with FIL to be with S, I'm going out until bedtime. We'll take it one day at a time, but I guess I need to act as if we aren't in a R at all, because when I tried to show my availability (per his previous complaints that I was gone all the time), he has used this against me.

I don't know if not being around is giving me or him power. If it's really what he wants - for me to be out of his face - then it actually gives him power. But it gives me power over my own life. It may not give me power in his eyes, but it does give me my own life back.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 09:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I love the crown image - H really does walk around with this sense of entitlement. I am not supposed to ask, propose, suggest anything.

So be it.

I am getting it about grabbing my power back. Like I said, I'm struggling with the fact that he left BECAUSE I was going out, getting dressed up, doing my own thing, etc. I don't want to do my old behaviors.

But there is still a way to just keep busy with my own plans and not ask anything of him. If he invtes me, that is a different story. Otherwise, he needs to see I"m ok with the separation.

I forgot the thing about the 2 weeks. I felt so proud of myself that I did my own thing this weekend - and that is obviously not enough time.

Has anyone else had success with the GAL for two+ weeks?


Hope,

You are getting some good advice from some very knowledgeable people.

GAL'ing is critical and it works. Now what does it work for (i.e., accomplish)? A couple of things. First, it shows your WAS you aren't sitting around pining for them to grace you with their presence. It shows the WAS that you will be just fine on your own. And, YOU WILL.

Second, it gets you busy and interested in hte positive things in life. Do something you have always wanted to do but haven't. New experiences, knowledge and fun. This will boost your self confidence and, most importantly, it puts the right person in charge of your happiness...YOU. When you accept that only YOU are responsible for YOUR happiness, your H's moods/actions/words might have some affect upon you, but they do not dictate what your mood is.

So, does GAL'ing "work"? Absolutely.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/14/09 09:48 PM
I meant does it work in getting H's attention. I've never had a problem living life for me - that's what got me into this mess - among other things, H resented that I devoted most of my energy to our S, and then at night, out doing theatre and having a social life when he is a shy computer nerd. H and I lived separate lives for years and didn't know how to connect. Now that I'm trying to connect, he's p***ed off and not willing. Round and round.

Still, I get it about GAL. Will do.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/15/09 03:54 AM
Sorry, I misunderstood. Has your H asked to go along on any of your GAL'ing? Have you told him he could join you if he wanted?

If your H is constantly angry, as you described, then the issue isn't you - yes, you probably know this. Has he ever spoken to you about how he sees himself? Does he like himself? How's his self esteem?

Just trying to understand more about your sitch.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/15/09 05:45 AM
GIMA, these are great questions. Nope, h has not asked to go along. Of course he could join me and I've sometimes told him so - like to some parties, etc. The answer has been no lately.

I really needed to hear that the issue isn't me. Thank you. i'm starting to convince myself of that as I read more about ragaholics (yes, there is such a thing) and verbal abuse.

Once precious night over the summer he responded to a book I gave him and talked about how he has issues with power - H was teased a lot as a kid (nerd), and then he felt his mother somehow was unsympathetic. I can see how he's trying to have power over me with his anger.

I think his self esteem isn't the greatest. He has quite a superior attitude, and one of perfectionism, but I think that stems from his low self esteem. Who knows. I hope if we ever get to MC (the wonderful land of OZ) I hope hope hope we can delve into this stuff. H doesn't go there much, certainly not recently.

Well on top of receiving my sep papers soon, H getting a bigger apt., we just learned we were turned down for our house insurance. We are going in the hole fast financially.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/15/09 08:02 AM
Oh, and now it's my fault I have "lost" whatever letter the insurance company must have sent to tell us what to fix before they denied us coverage. I'm tired of being under the microscope.

Time to get away I think. H has S tomorrow night - I'm going to a friends' house.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/15/09 04:59 PM
For a while there, when H was trying to put every wall up and fight me about everything to make me a monster and justify his crap, his wanting to ride off into the sunset, I would take it.

Eventually one day when I was being yelled at about something completely stupid, I yelled at the very top of my lungs STOP!

I took a deep breath and calmly explained, "You will treat me the way I say you will. You will NOT treat me like this. I have a college degree, I'm a mother and a well respected woman in this community. You go do what you have to do. But I will not be the punching bag or the effing fall guy here." I walked away. The next time I saw H, later that day, it was all peaches and cream.

And the blaming me for everything ended. Put your foot down Sweet Pea.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/15/09 05:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
GIMA, these are great questions. Nope, h has not asked to go along. Of course he could join me and I've sometimes told him so - like to some parties, etc. The answer has been no lately.

I really needed to hear that the issue isn't me. Thank you. i'm starting to convince myself of that as I read more about ragaholics (yes, there is such a thing) and verbal abuse.

Once precious night over the summer he responded to a book I gave him and talked about how he has issues with power - H was teased a lot as a kid (nerd), and then he felt his mother somehow was unsympathetic. I can see how he's trying to have power over me with his anger.

I think his self esteem isn't the greatest. He has quite a superior attitude, and one of perfectionism, but I think that stems from his low self esteem. Who knows. I hope if we ever get to MC (the wonderful land of OZ) I hope hope hope we can delve into this stuff. H doesn't go there much, certainly not recently.

Well on top of receiving my sep papers soon, H getting a bigger apt., we just learned we were turned down for our house insurance. We are going in the hole fast financially.


OK. I understand a little better, I hope, Hope.

The anger and control issues could definitely be products of his low self esteem. He does not sound like he likes himself very much and probably perceives (real or not, his perception is all that's important for the moment) that he did not receive the love/support from his mother/father as a child. These are BIG deals.

What can you do to help pump up/massage his ego. Given where you are, I would start out real small. Compliments go a long way. Remember, we males are really just little boys in a man's body. There is a certain aspect of us that still craves approval, especially from female figures. And, I think you can do this in a way that is not desperate, insincere or comes across as you seeking something for yourself by complimenting him.

If his self esteem is in the crapper, then depression, in some amount/severity is also at work. Coach recommended a great book to me that helped me turn from a pessimist into an optimist - "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman. It might help you understand your H's thought process better and why he may be a pessimist.

Now, complimenting him does NOT include being a doormat. When he raises his voice with you or gets on a personal attack, call him on it. Do it calmly, but set that boundary. If he won't have a civil discussion like a grown up, then tell him conversation's over until we can have a civil discussion like adults.

As for his blaming you for everything, I suspect he's doing that, at least in part, to get you engaged in an argument. Let it roll off. A few times of that, and will probably stop doing it b/c it's not getting the result he was hoping for.

Obviously, C would help him a great deal, assuming he had the right C. But, he's a big boy, and you cannot make him go.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/15/09 06:34 PM
Thanks friends.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/15/09 08:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Stronger


I took a deep breath and calmly explained, "You will treat me the way I say you will. You will NOT treat me like this. I have a college degree, I'm a mother and a well respected woman in this community. You go do what you have to do. But I will not be the punching bag or the effing fall guy here." I walked away.


I'm memorizing this. This is good. It's true I make mistakes and those mistakes infuriate my H. But so does he. I'm working on my mindset that I'm not to blame for everything.

Thank you!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/15/09 08:24 PM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall

The anger and control issues could definitely be products of his low self esteem. He does not sound like he likes himself very much and probably perceives (real or not, his perception is all that's important for the moment) that he did not receive the love/support from his mother/father as a child. These are BIG deals.

What can you do to help pump up/massage his ego. Given where you are, I would start out real small. Compliments go a long way. Remember, we males are really just little boys in a man's body. There is a certain aspect of us that still craves approval, especially from female figures. And, I think you can do this in a way that is not desperate, insincere or comes across as you seeking something for yourself by complimenting him.

If his self esteem is in the crapper, then depression, in some amount/severity is also at work. Coach recommended a great book to me that helped me turn from a pessimist into an optimist - "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman. It might help you understand your H's thought process better and why he may be a pessimist.

Now, complimenting him does NOT include being a doormat. When he raises his voice with you or gets on a personal attack, call him on it. Do it calmly, but set that boundary. If he won't have a civil discussion like a grown up, then tell him conversation's over until we can have a civil discussion like adults.

As for his blaming you for everything, I suspect he's doing that, at least in part, to get you engaged in an argument. Let it roll off. A few times of that, and will probably stop doing it b/c it's not getting the result he was hoping for.

Obviously, C would help him a great deal, assuming he had the right C. But, he's a big boy, and you cannot make him go.


I love this. You are so right, GIMA. I think he needs to feel superior to me so that he can deny to himself what his own problems are = because in his mind, he has to be perfect or he's nothing. He projects this on me, I'm seen as the failure, he's perfect again and he can hide from his low self esteem once again. He's less interested in the arguments any more - he'd rather blast me and walk away. But he is interested in hiding his own faults.

According to his mom, his father was very hard on him growing up - telling him how hard he'd have to work or else he'll end up living in a cardboard box. Through high school he was expected to hold a job and get straight a's - which of course he did. He called him mom crying once in college because he got an A- and he thought it would end his career possibilities.

so I'm the artist, the mom. I am fluid and in the moment with my child. I sew and paint and play music and perform. I lose my phone or keys occaisionally, don't always get the library books back in time. He is precise, meets every deadline, and knows where all his stuff is at any moment. He sees it now that he is the most responsible person in our marriage. However, I see that I am the one who is responsible for taking care of the emotional world of our family - our marriage and our child. So he fails to see that we are each weak where the other is strong and that is what drew us together in the first place.

So I inconvenience him by losing things occaisionally, he inconveniences me by not having control over his emotions. Neither of us is perfect and I need to remember this because he won't.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/15/09 08:56 PM
Quote:
Neither of us is perfect and I need to remember this because he won't.


NO ONE is.
Posted By: Coach Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/15/09 09:02 PM
Quote:
so I'm the artist, the mom. I am fluid and in the moment with my child. I sew and paint and play music and perform. I lose my phone or keys occaisionally, don't always get the library books back in time. He is precise, meets every deadline, and knows where all his stuff is at any moment. He sees it now that he is the most responsible person in our marriage. However, I see that I am the one who is responsible for taking care of the emotional world of our family - our marriage and our child. So he fails to see that we are each weak where the other is strong and that is what drew us together in the first place.


There are your 180s. You get organised and responsible. Let him carry some of the emotional load and play a little. It's the see-saw analogy in the DB book - he can't be relaxed because he has to be responsible and on top of everything. The other dynamic this brings in is a parent child dynamic which kills romance. Be partners while keeping your identities.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/15/09 09:25 PM
Coach - great. I certainly will. Thank you.

H does control all the finances - says "I can't be trusted with them." So be it. Yes, I will work to be as responsible as I can with what I have - the house. The shopping. Dates and times. Etc.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/16/09 03:28 AM
Hope,

A few comments on the last few posts. Coach is on to something with his comments about parent-child dynamics in your MR, definitely something you will want to explore further in MC. I can elaborate further when you get to that point.

GIMA is right about the compliments, but you need to be very understated in how you approach this with your H or he may perceive your efforts as patronizing. In essence, how you want to approach your H is by incorporating a compliment in with a concern in order to get a desired result- with a dash of humility and understanding. Make sense? Look back at my prior post in which I mentioned how your H's behaviors and attitudes were not in synch with his high standards to get an idea of what I am talking about.

I would not put too much weight on the perception that your H has low self esteem right now- this man's main issue is depression. If self-esteem was his problem in the past, he has most likely mitigated it to a large extent by being outstanding in things that are important to him. I would bet that despite being off the rails emotionally at the present, in your H's heart of hearts that would include being an outstanding H and father. BTW, are your in-laws still M? Your H very likely will be very sensitive to any shortcomings of his parents- particularly his own father- and will be loath to repeat any mistakes his father may have made either as a parent or spouse.

You really ought to consider getting your H into either MC or IC as soon as possible- I wouldn't wait another month. Your H sounds very much a results-oriented person- as am I. Use that to your advantage to get his a$$ in gear and into counseling. Tie the need for counseling in with your H getting his head clear in order to pull you guys out of this emotional/financial spiral you are in. He needs to be at the top of his game right now and he is not. Any waffling on his end, print my prior post and shove it under his nose.

Got to run. I'll check in later.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/16/09 07:54 PM
BJ, great advice. I have given H numbers for therapists, and once the sep. papers are signed, we go to MC. I just can't push him now.

Trying really hard to GAL and not look desperate. H made it clear he will be busy and not around this weekend - and my gut reaction was sadness, he's pulling away, etc. But I just said, "no problem, I understand."

Going to keep going with the no calls tactic, and the making my plans without him. Doesn't seem to be having any effect, but I remember it must take two weeks or more. It stings that he has no desire to be around me at all, but I'm just going to let him have it. I need to not be sitting around waiting for him to return. Drop the rope.

My technique up to this point was to be around him a lot to show my changes - but he asked for more space so I'm giving it although I still fear this is just agreeing to D and not fighting for it.

I'm writing all this down to gather support on my new tactic of pulling way back - keep me focussed people!
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/16/09 08:05 PM
Giving you support Hope. Keep it up and keep posting. I'm with you.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/17/09 06:14 AM
Well the separation papers are finally drawn up. H wants to "go over them with me to translate the legalese". I'm downright terrified. I'm really afraid...I guess I'll have to stay calm and get them to my L as fast as possible to see what he says before I decide anything.

Any words of advice? I know I'm supposed to "keep ironing and watching family guy" not let him get my goat, stay calm, act as if I'm strong not needy, but man, I'm having panic attacks already. How am I going to get through it?

As for no calls, H called once to set up an app. with a plumber, that is all. Besides that I've laid low. My mom came over tonight for dinner and helped with S5 as I was really depressed. I'm tired of all the abuse. She and I talked and I feel better - she is totally onboard with the show him I'm moving on thing - reminded me of my tendency in past relationships to hang on way after a relationship is over. She says I need to keep H from having power over me. Time for LRT?
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/17/09 06:45 AM
I'm so sorry to hear that you're hurting, Hope. But yes, it is time for LRT. I have been leery of the verbal and emotional abuse your H dishes out to you and your S, and I think moving on is probably for the best.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/17/09 07:15 AM
Thanks Dia. I'm really tired of it. H has always had these tendencies, but only since the separation has he gone full force. This is what has kept me hanging on - the fact that H "isn't normally this bad." But I'm tired of hanging on. I'm scared to move on as well. But I think you are right.

Anyone - my H says he has his version of the separation agreement finished and wants to "talk it over with me to explain the legalese." My father says under no circumstances should I sit and listen to H's translation of the agreement because it might be argued later that I agreed to something I didn't mean to .... and that I should simply hand them to my L and have the L explain them to me.

Input?
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/17/09 04:03 PM
I agree with your father. I think your H should drop the papers off when you are not there. You can then read them at your leisure, get input from whoever you like, etc.

I don't think a sit-down with him is a good idea either. Too much chance for things to go hairy.
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/17/09 04:24 PM
(((HOPE)))

I also agree with your father and Dia. It's also another opportunity for him to test you and I think it would be very hard to be strong. Would be for me.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/17/09 04:51 PM
Anyone have any idea why his L would advise him to sit down with me over the papers? Seems fishy to me...like Dia said, could get hairy!
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/17/09 06:23 PM
Hope, my guess is so he could get your agreement in one fell swoop w/o you having the chance to get outside counsel.

I didn't realize he had a L. If he does, you need on, too. Do you have one?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/17/09 11:07 PM
Oh yes, I have one. I've posted my sitch earlier. H wants legal sep and will then only go to MC with me. "In case we get divorced" he wants the alimony to officially stop as of the day he moved out. If I don't agree to a legal sep, he'll file for D. If I agree to a legal sep, he agrees to go to MC for five months and this is writen into the legal sep agreement.

So, I've been waiting to get the agreement papers from him - he has them and was advised to go over them with me. I have no idea if I should do this first before showing them to my L, or just take them and only talk to my L. Obviously, I wouldn't sign anything without giving them to my L first.

My father suggested that even if I nod my head "in understanding" at anything H says about agreement, it could be argued as "agreeing" so I shouldn't talk to him at all. I just don't know.

So H called me this morning, earlier than usual. When I call him for the schedule, he often avoids me - but I have been sticking to my no call strategy, and he chomped at the bit this morning to plan time with S. I kept very detached, upbeat. I didn't try to negotiate with him (180). I simply told him what my plans were with S and told H he could meet us (pumpkin patch then bday party). H tagged along.

I kept aloof and doing my own thing. Didn't try to talk to him or avoid him. When H talked to me I was upbeat and light. H left after three hours. I did ask what the plan was for tomorrow and got "Stop bugging me" again.

I let him go.

I texted him only to say that this thing where he doesn't tell me ahead of time when he wants to visit S and then says I'm bugging him when I need to know so I can make my own schedule doesn't work for me. I did a KISS!

So he actually 1)apologized like four times for being snappy with me and for not having a schedule ahead of time 2) agreed to work out a communal schedule in writing to avoid vagueness, and 3) to talk about this in therapy.

This is first time he has mentioned talking about anything in therapy. This is a big sign. He seems to be actually sticking to his plan to attend MC with me to work things out.

I'm proud of myself for staying detached and standing up for myself in a brief, to the point way. I'm proud at the positive response I got from H. They are new babysteps.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/18/09 04:43 AM
Went to a pumpkin carving party that the whole family goes to each year. H did not come. Was totally depressed watching all the families with small kids - all of them with two parents by their sides. I felt like a total failure.

Ack - where's the PMA?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/18/09 02:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Went to a pumpkin carving party that the whole family goes to each year. H did not come. Was totally depressed watching all the families with small kids - all of them with two parents by their sides. I felt like a total failure.

Ack - where's the PMA?


YOU are not the failure. You were there for the kids and you are not walking out on your M. I don't say that to throw stones at your H, but to help underscore what you already know.

You have to make your own PMA. What's something fun you can do today with the kids? Do you cook? Bake cupcakes with them. Or, if it's warm where you are, go to a park and have a picnic lunch.

Resign yourself to have fun with or without H's participation.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/18/09 02:58 PM
THanks as always GIMA for the reminders. Will do. It's gorgeous weather here - I'll take S for a picnic.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/18/09 05:08 PM
Hope,

First, I agree with the others, don't discuss any agreements with your H- let the two Ls talk that kind of stuff over. The only exception would be the counseling. This nonsense tying the MC in with the legal separation agreement is BS. Your H needs to stop with the games already. A few sessions with a good C would be a very good investment in time/money right now for you both. Just my 2 cents. wink
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/18/09 05:39 PM
I agree with Big John. Make a list of all the things you are expecting to be in the agreement. Tell him you were advised to NOT speak to him about the agreement and your LAWYER is trained in Legalese. So no worries.

If I were you, the alimony needs to start from the point you two get DIVORCED not from the point when he left.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/18/09 06:10 PM
I'm so confused right now. I'm going to put a lot of thought into what you all have said.

It's just that in California, H can file for D uncontested. If all he is asking for is separation and not D I have felt like this is good news. But your advice is leading me to reconsider.

You all know he put in the agreement five months of MC or the whole thing is null and void. You also know that if I don't agree to this, he will file for D.

But perhaps I should reconsider that D is a better option ... if I can get more alimony and the likelyhood of him returning is small anyhow. I will talk with my L this week and keep you posted.

I haven't been this depressed and confused in many many years.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/18/09 07:17 PM
Just so you understand, every state D is uncontested. All that means is that eventually H will get a divorce if he wants one. No state is going to FORCE two people to stay married. But you would still have to agree to the aspects of the D, just like you have to agree to the separation agreement.

Don't let the term uncontested scare you. For example, your H would have to file for D. You get the filing and see you don't like the alimony or child support or child care set up. You give it to your lawyer and tell him what you want. You'll have X amount of days to respond. Then your H has to answer you. He'll have X amount of days and so it goes, back and forth until it's agreed upon. If you can't agree, you go to court and the judge decides the parts you can't figure out.

The other option and this I would only recommend for two people who both want out, you sit down, figure it out, give it to a mediator who takes it to the judge, after it's signed by a notary (which most mediators are) and that's it.

Uncontested just means the state won't force you to stay married. He can NOT just walk into a courtroom before a judge and say I want a divorce and the judge says OK! The judge would want to hear from you to make sure all the loose ends are covered.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 03:14 AM
OK, well I"m kinda at square one. I will have to see what he wrote in the agreement and see how it matches what I would want. If it's too far off, I may prepare to fight it. If it's close to what I want I may sign it.

Either way, I'm going to try to get him into MC or IC before that. That will be tricky.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 04:11 AM
Wow. 180 city. I told him under no circumstances will he insult me (calls me a"nut job" frequently) if there are to be any legal negotiations or otherwise. I also said I would take the papers to my lawyer and I told him it was in my own best interest. When he started criticizing me for going off the rails, I said he has the same problem and has no place to criticize.

I really laid down the law with him. I feel scared, but proud of myself.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 12:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Wow. 180 city. I told him under no circumstances will he insult me (calls me a"nut job" frequently) if there are to be any legal negotiations or otherwise. I also said I would take the papers to my lawyer and I told him it was in my own best interest. When he started criticizing me for going off the rails, I said he has the same problem and has no place to criticize.

I really laid down the law with him. I feel scared, but proud of myself.


Good job! Now, be consistent with this. This is part of taking back (a) control and (b) your self esteem. He will test you, so be prepared.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 02:40 PM
Aw crap. That's the hard part. Gathering the courage to keep it up. Ok, will do.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 03:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Aw crap. That's the hard part. Gathering the courage to keep it up. Ok, will do.


Yep. Just remember how proud it made you feel.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 04:50 PM
BTW GIMA, thanks for reminding me tp find some happiness with my son yesterday. I had a wonderful day with him. We did have a nice lunch. H came with me after that to my performance, sat through it attentively with grandma, and then came to dinner with me and some friends. I was able to GAL and bond with my son at the same time! I think that is why I felt so empowered when I came home.

EB, you were right as well. Thank you for reminding me last week to get out and have some fun. It made a world of difference to not be sitting around at home ruminating about my sitch.

You are all the best!
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 05:17 PM
Sounds so wonderful! You see?! Keep it up. I'm so happy for you that you had a great day and you are feeling empowered. Keep the focus on yourself and your son and being happy.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 07:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
BTW GIMA, thanks for reminding me tp find some happiness with my son yesterday. I had a wonderful day with him. We did have a nice lunch. H came with me after that to my performance, sat through it attentively with grandma, and then came to dinner with me and some friends. I was able to GAL and bond with my son at the same time! I think that is why I felt so empowered when I came home.

EB, you were right as well. Thank you for reminding me last week to get out and have some fun. It made a world of difference to not be sitting around at home ruminating about my sitch.

You are all the best!


Hope, you did the hard work. Just keep doing this. This should show you the importance of, and reason for, GAL'ing and taking the focus off your H.

Good job.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 08:24 PM
Well folks. It's all for nothing. H called me this morning and said he is going to pick up his mom from the hospital this morning meaning he has to work this afternoon and this evening. This means he is going to not pick up S from preschool as originally arranged, and wants to "let us know" if he has time to come tonight to see S. All this week he is playing this game of letting us know with very short notice if and when he's coming over. It's because he wants to take S to his new apt., not be here in the house with him where I feel S5 will feel most secure.

He refuses to stick to our prearranged visitation schedule, and he wants to drop in. Up until now I have been flexible because I want my S to be with dad as much as possible.

This unpredictability is upsetting to S.

On top of this, H says coming over here to be with S "doesn't work for him and I need to propose alternatives or he will just go with his alternative." Then when I try to talk to him about it, and albeit it is extrememly upsetting and emotional to me, he shuts me down, starts calling me crazy and a nut job again, says he refuses to listen and will only tell me how it will be. He says "this is not the time to talk about it" yet he continues to bring up upsetting talks when he immediately has to get off the phone and refuses to set up prearranged times to negotiate these issues.

He has also refused to arrange a time to "talk" about the legal sep agreement and/or hand them over.

Sorry, I'm venting, but my standing up for myself today only got me outshouted and hung up on.

I'm going to not answer his calls or talk to him until I have clear advice from my L if he can take S to his apt. before a legal agreement is settled on.


Advice?
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 08:44 PM
Like you have noticed before Hope, this is all about control.

With the schedule this week, could it be that H has no control over when he has to work and is taking his frustration out on you? Are you sure he wants to take your S to his new apt? Are you usually there when H is w your S?

I agree that the unpredicatability is upsetting to S. Same in my sitch. I wanted them to be with their dad as much as possible, but I was being a doormat by being so flexible and dropping things at the last minute for him. Just tell him no for the times that it doesn't work for you and it's not part of the schedule.

quote: On top of this, H says coming over here to be with S "doesn't work for him and I need to propose alternatives or he will just go with his alternative." Then when I try to talk to him about it, and albeit it is extrememly upsetting and emotional to me, he shuts me down, starts calling me crazy and a nut job again, says he refuses to listen and will only tell me how it will be. He says "this is not the time to talk about it" yet he continues to bring up upsetting talks when he immediately has to get off the phone and refuses to set up prearranged times to negotiate these issues.

This all sounds like you are talking too long with him. Remember KISS? Don't let him see you upset either. He's pushing your buttons. With the schedule for today, I would say pick your battles. Let him see your son like planned even though it's later. It's not like he cancelled. Oh well, might be too late by now.

I'm sure others on here will give you more advice.

Oh, and it sounds like a good thing that he is delaying showing you the legal sep papers or schedule a time to discuss. He's just trying to be controlling again.

(((hugs)))



Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 08:45 PM
Quote:
Sorry, I'm venting, but my standing up for myself today only got me outshouted and hung up on.


Hope, this is NOT why you are sticking up for yourself. You CANNOT control what your H does/says. You are not doing this to obtain a result from him.

You are doing this for YOU, and only YOU. Do what is right for YOU.

If you stick up for yourself, or take any other action for that matter, with an expectation it will make H act/say something, then you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Take a few deep breaths, then think about why you are reclaiming control and your self-esteem.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/19/09 10:06 PM
@ dbd - yes, if he wants to see his son, I won't stand in his way. In the future, however, I will send a KISS email that says S needs as much consistency as possible and this means letting him know when he will be here or not and what time. I want to pick my battles now and not argue.

I also know that if it comes to a custody battle, it will be better for me if H doesn't act consistent about his visitation.

Last week, H's dad was visiting from the east coast, and this week his mom is in the hospital. So, I've been flexible to accomodate these emergencies.

But this thing of threatening to take my S to his apt - I don't know until I hear from the lawyer if he can do this or not until there is a legal agreement. Anyone know?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/20/09 05:58 AM
Well that's it. He said no way is he ever going to give me a chance again. He's too hurt from the past and the only way that he can be sure I can never hurt him again is to cut me out of his life.
Posted By: Lotus Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/20/09 06:30 AM
so, that's 2 days after you sign the paper he wanted you to sign and now he is reneging on his promise, no MC? seems like he was lying to get you to do what he wanted.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/20/09 07:44 AM
No, I haven't signed anything. He has put in the agreement a commitment to five months of MC but says now he considers it "family therapy" and that he sees no way I will change and he should have never married me in the first place. But he's agreeing to the MC "because I asked for that to be in the agreement" WTF??? I'm not sure if I should take him at his word on this one or not. He may just be too proud and powerful to admit he has any hope, and he may be just willing to go through the motions to get what he wants and fast, without drawing out a D. I just don't know.
Posted By: Lotus Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/20/09 08:11 AM
Well, I realize I only hear one side of it, but it sounds to me like he's the one with a personality problem and is unlikely to ever change. He sounds like a bully to me.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/20/09 06:06 PM
Thank you, Lotus. I have been told this by - well, everybody. Time for me to believe it and stop being bullied.

I had a great talk with a woman today who is going through a similar sitch - and she put her foot down early on. She told her H that he has to do fifty percent of the changes or the marriage is over.

I have been under the impression that for DB to work, I have to do one hundred percent of the changes. But I see how I act like a silly doormat by basically taking all the blame for our issues and promising to do anything to save the marriage. I thought this was under the catagory of personal responsibility, but I have instead allowed him to continue his illusion that he has no emotional responsibility for the problems in our marriage.

Now I have to stick to it. I have to be ready to walk for good if he doesn't admit changes he needs to make.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/20/09 06:12 PM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall

Hope, this is NOT why you are sticking up for yourself. You CANNOT control what your H does/says. You are not doing this to obtain a result from him.

You are doing this for YOU, and only YOU. Do what is right for YOU.

If you stick up for yourself, or take any other action for that matter, with an expectation it will make H act/say something, then you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Take a few deep breaths, then think about why you are reclaiming control and your self-esteem.


Thank you GIMA, as always. I'm slowly but surely coming out of my shell to do this.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/20/09 09:39 PM
No. DBing is not about 100% of the changes to save the marriage. It's about understanding the changes you want to make FOR YOU. Then if those changes help save the marriage, awesome.

The part of the 100% being on you is that yes, if you want to save the marriage you may have to "deal" with some crap in the beginning while the WAS figures some things out. But it does not mean only you change....eventually the WAS changes too or you're right, it won't work.
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/20/09 09:47 PM
Hope - has your son ever seen a C?

Please forgive me for speaking plainly. When I read your sitch, I hear a description of a man who is verbally and emotionally abusive to you and your son. This is not a situation where I think 50/50 custody would be healthy for the child.

Limited visitation - maybe.

If you agree with my assessment, please start getting your ducks in a row from a documentation and legal advice standpoint.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/21/09 12:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I had a great talk with a woman today who is going through a similar sitch - and she put her foot down early on. She told her H that he has to do fifty percent of the changes or the marriage is over.


Hope,

You are responsible for your 50% of the MR and your H the other 50%. You need to give 100% to your efforts to effect change in yourself (i.e. your 50% of the MR)in order to hopefully sway your H to want to make positive changes of his own (i.e his 50% of the MR).

From your description of things your H is acting like a complete a$$. He needs to understand that when it comes to sharing your S5, he needs to be an adult and be fair and reasonable. Dia is right- this behavior of his could adversely affect the amount of custody he is awarded in regards to S5 in the future.

Is there anyone in your extended family that could have a frank conversation with your H about your sitch- preferably male- someone who might have a chance of setting him straight? What about your MIL?

You need to continue working on not putting up with your H's crap anymore. I still haven't finished "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson- I've been too busy with work and my own damn D- but I've liked what I've read thus far. I recommend you pick up a copy for yourself.

As far as the agreement to go to MC, this is shaping up to be just what it sounded like when you first mentioned it- a ploy by your H to get what he wants. I agree with what someone else above said about your H- he is acting like a bully. The only way you are going to impress upon your H that you are serious is by playing hardball of your own. In light of recent events, I'd consult with your L regarding your next step.

Hang in there.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/21/09 01:08 AM
I am meeting with my L this week. I have been documenting the verbal abuse and plan to use this in custody. Sadly, this looks like it's going to be a big fight rather than a simple agreement.

H has told me a hundred times that he has written the agreement to be as fair to me as possible so that it won't go back and forth endlessly in court. We'll see what my L says.

As for the abuse, I still heard from him last night the same old story - that he should have seen from the beginning how innapropriate I am and how I would never change no matter how much I promised to. The missing piece is that he never once admits to his role in things.

I am moving from wanting my H back to accepting that he never will because he refuses to look at himself. I am at an all time low, feeling a depression I haven't felt for many many years.

I know I'm supposed to be doing things for myself, but all I can do is cry. This is not DB. I'm supposed to be happy, upbeat, moving on. I just can't do it. If I could afford DB coaching I would but I don't see how I can spend one extra penny right now given the circumstances.

I know I need to play hardball. I'm trying. It's just not in my heart - I want to do all the pleading and begging but I haven't. Why do I feel so devasted by his leaving when he is the one that is so cruel? What is wrong with me? I need to move on. I just don't know how.
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/21/09 01:34 AM
Hope - DB is for run of the mill troubled marriages. DB will not fix an abuser. It is NOT your fault that your H behaves the way he does. Blaming the victim (you) is a classic ploy to deflect blame from himself.

When you find yourself in an abusive relationship, you protect yourself and your child, and if that means leaving and divorcing, so be it.

Remember - no matter what he says, this is not about you!
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/21/09 01:38 AM
Dia is right on point. I like BigJohn's post as well.

Hope, your H has a lot of growing up to do. A real man simply doesn't treat his W the way he's treating you. Maybe he wakes up at some point, but you have to look out for you and little one(s) now.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/21/09 02:45 AM
Thank you friends. I am just at my wits end. H yelled at me for moving something in the garage, which I cleaned out for him to put his car in when he's here - I'm never allowed to touch anything of his. He also yelled at me earlier for cleaning up an old envelope I saw on the ground saying don't I dare touch anything of his, like I was supposed to know an old envelope meant anything.
Then he yelled at S for dropping something accidentally on his toe.

I don't know what I'm going to do. First step is I'm finally coming out of denial about this. I want my son to have his father in his life, but this is so painful.
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/21/09 02:50 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv

I am moving from wanting my H back to accepting that he never will because he refuses to look at himself. I am at an all time low, feeling a depression I haven't felt for many many years.

I know I'm supposed to be doing things for myself, but all I can do is cry. This is not DB. I'm supposed to be happy, upbeat, moving on. I just can't do it. If I could afford DB coaching I would but I don't see how I can spend one extra penny right now given the circumstances.

I know I need to play hardball. I'm trying. It's just not in my heart - I want to do all the pleading and begging but I haven't. Why do I feel so devasted by his leaving when he is the one that is so cruel? What is wrong with me? I need to move on. I just don't know how.


I understand you Hope. I'm feeling the same in my sitch. We are on the low portion of our own roller coaster. I see DBing as personal growth for ourselves--that's it. It's keeping busy and improving ourselves while we wait for our spouses to open their eyes and decide to work on the relationship. You already know this, but I know it helps me to be reminded to keep focused on yourself and your child. You need to find peace and emotional stability for yourself.

Step by step you will get through this. Even if you have to break it up day by day, hour by hour, you will get through this.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/21/09 02:52 AM
I know its painful. We all do.

Take some time to think it through. Don't make a decision while you are upset. But, face what you have to face. It may be hard, but in the end, it is the best for you and S.

Yelling is not acceptable. Name calling is not acceptable. Becoming angry with you about an envelope on the floor is just plain ridiculous.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/21/09 05:35 AM
Thank you for all the constant reminders as I try to wrap my head around how horrible my marriage has become - it's so easy to want to stay in denial. Your support means more than you will ever know.

I can't thank you all enough for being there for me and reminding me of the reality of my situation. It's not something I tell people usually because it's so dang dysfunctional and I like how I usually show myself as a confident gal (believe it or not). But you guys have been witness to some of the hardest stuff of my life and not given up on me. I can't thank you enough and want to let you all know I am thinking long and hard about all of this.

I intend to grow and mature no matter what the outcome of my marriage. Somebody further back up my thread mentioned the child-parent dynamic of a relationship. I'd be interested in hearing more. I am working on being treated like an equal adult, not an abused child!

Isn't it strange how we can nearly reach midlife and still have so much to learn.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/21/09 12:32 PM
Quote:
Your support means more than you will ever know.


Nope, I, for one, can tell you I KNOW what it means. I suspect everyone else here would say the same. B/c, in one form or another, we've all been there. And I think that's why the people here really want to help.

Quote:
I am working on being treated like an equal adult, not an abused child!


Start by having enough self-respect to stand up for yourself - and you are doing this. He won't respect you if YOU don't respect you. If you perceive (and act like) you are not worthy of others' love and respect, then you won't receive it.

And, don't blame yourself for the problems in your M. You are 50% of the reason why you're here. No more, no less. Forgive yourself, make any needed changes and move forward.

What can you do to work on your self-esteem? Maybe a new outfit? Maybe new perfume? Something to make you feel nice and appreciated.

Be aware that he is probably going to keep testing you. Expect it so that when it happens, it doesn't rattle you. As long as he can get a reaction out of you, he will keep doing it. Once you stop allowing him to affect your mood, then he looses power over you. Take it back. Believe in yourself.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
H yelled at me for moving something in the garage,


H doesn't live there anymore right? Shouldn't he get his stuff out of your house? My thought: He is the one who walked out. Why does he still maintain the right to come and go to your house as he pleases? Is "his" place just a clubhouse or is it his new home?

It seems that your H has one foot in and one foot out?

I still think that moving on, getting a life, stopping trying to hard to please him is the only thing that will work.

"H, I love you and would untimately like to put our family back together. I picture a relationship where we are true partners and are dedicated to meeting eachothers needs as well as our own. I see mistakes that I have made in the past and would like to correct things for a better future. I can only control my own actions though and can't apologise for the past forever. If you would like to work on this future with me, you know where I will be."

I know that in your case, having too much of a life without him was one of the issues. At this point though, he is surely aware that you are trying and that you are sorry for the past.

Just my 3 1/2 cents...
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/22/09 11:17 AM
[quote=Energizer Bunny]"H, I love you and would untimately like to put our family back together. I picture a relationship where we are true partners and are dedicated to meeting eachothers needs as well as our own. I see mistakes that I have made in the past and would like to correct things for a better future. I can only control my own actions though and can't apologise for the past forever. If you would like to work on this future with me, you know where I will be."
[quote]

Have you tried saying this to H? This is something I'd like to say to my H, but feel it would be pursuing. But I also see that nothing is happening now in my sitch, so I'd be willing to give it a try.

How are things Hope?
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/22/09 05:01 PM
Hope,
As your H yells at you for stupid things.....if they are really stupid, then you continue to do what ever it is you were doing. And eventually he'll get the point, get over or die with it on his mind. You as a mother know you can't give into your child when he's whining and being ornery just to be whiny and ornery, it goes for adults too.

Remember this: You are going to survive this and one day your H will regret how he did this and how he treated you. When that day comes, you won't care.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/22/09 06:35 PM
Thanks people. Yes, the nitpicking continues. Under it all is the message "I am working so hard to pay for everything and you are lazing around." I got yelled at last night with that message and H threatened to write a letter to my L to destroy the sep agreement he offered - because it was "way too generous and he's getting f***ed in the a**". So now he threatens to make the papers much less favorable to me financially, insisting I make a certain amount of $ or we will sell the house.

this is a living hell people.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/22/09 06:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Stronger
Hope,
As your H yells at you for stupid things.....if they are really stupid, then you continue to do what ever it is you were doing. And eventually he'll get the point, get over or die with it on his mind. You as a mother know you can't give into your child when he's whining and being ornery just to be whiny and ornery, it goes for adults too.

Remember this: You are going to survive this and one day your H will regret how he did this and how he treated you. When that day comes, you won't care.

On the little things, this does work. H eventually calms down when it gets little reaction from me. But there's an intensity and rage to his voice that sends shivers down my spine.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/22/09 06:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Thanks people. Yes, the nitpicking continues. Under it all is the message "I am working so hard to pay for everything and you are lazing around." I got yelled at last night with that message and H threatened to write a letter to my L to destroy the sep agreement he offered - because it was "way too generous and he's getting f***ed in the a**". So now he threatens to make the papers much less favorable to me financially, insisting I make a certain amount of $ or we will sell the house.

this is a living hell people.


YOUR L probably has something to say about that. Call him/her.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/22/09 07:45 PM
Yeah, L is in trial and hasn't returned my phone calls.
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/22/09 08:59 PM
Then go dark. Stop talking to him. If that's the only way to stop the abuse, then stop it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/23/09 01:49 AM
Stronger, you are exactly right. Since the big threats, I left the house, shut off all communication, spent the night at a friends and refused to talk.

Guess who called me 24hrs. later CALMLY TALKING, WANTING TO RESOLVE THINGS BETWEEN THE TWO OF US, EVEN IN THERAPY, AND OWNING UP TO HOW PARANOID HE'S BEEN.

He has a long way to go, but I'm finally standing up to him this has shown results. THANK GOD. It's going to be a tough battle.

My first step is - stay away from him, and only talk about this stuff in therapy. He came up with the idea today, I didn't ask him. So I"m going to jump on it and stay away. No more clinging and waiting around. I have busy plans with my son and my friends this weekend.

Thank you friends.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/23/09 02:08 AM
Hope,

That is GREAT!! Good for you.

See what happens when you have enough self respect not to take his misbehavior any more.

Now, keep it up.
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/23/09 02:12 AM
Hi, Hope,

Keep an eye out for this dynamic:

Your H will set you up. He'll make it so he can yell at you no matter what you do.

Envelope on the floor = Yell at Hope b/c stuff is always a mess around here. Doesn't she ever DO anything around here?

Hope picks up envelope = Yell at Hope for touching my stuff.

Or...

Garage is too full = Yell at Hope b/c I can't get my car in. Doesn't she ever DO anything around here?

Garage is orderly = Yell at hope for touching my stuff.

Maybe he doesn't do this, but my red flags went up when you mentioned those two incidents.

When he does this to you, where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't - do what pleases you. If you want the garage orderly, do it. If you want the envelope off the floor, pick it up. For me, if I knew I was going to be yelled at either way, I'd much rather have been yelled at for doing something I wanted. That way I was at least in control and not knuckling under to an arsehole in the grip of his own demons. When I didn't do things specifically because I didn't want to trigger abuse, I felt like I had become complicit in the abuse.

Does that make any sort of sense?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/23/09 03:45 AM
Dia, you are right on the button. I have finally realized this. I'm set up for a no-win. This is why I'm prepared to leave anytime this yelling comes up again. I have nothing left to lose - and my self-respect to gain.

GIMA - thank you!!!
Posted By: Stronger Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/23/09 07:13 PM
Good for you. Stick with it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/24/09 01:20 AM
Jeez. Guess who came over for Friday night dinner, didn't yell at anyone, stayed off of his blackberry, and laughed and shared stories with tonight for like two hours?

Wow. going dark and detaching works. I was prepared to be yelled at and ignored, and to have to leave, as usual. But he was bubbly and chatty and upbeat - WITH ME. FOr the first time in a long, long time.

I don't know what to make of this. Still on guard. But - OMG! I'm in shock. Feeling strong.

Also, I decided I wasn't going to give up theatre forever since H hasn't noticed it helping our M. I auditioned for the first time in a while the other night, and nailed the part! Show starts in Feb. so that buys us time.

All good news, but optimistically cautious!
Posted By: Gardener Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/24/09 01:25 AM
Nice, welcome change, I'm sure.
Now be prepared for him to pull back and revert.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/24/09 02:14 AM
Right, Gardener. I'm ready. I'm going to up and leave anytime he blows his top.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/24/09 04:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Guess who called me 24hrs. later CALMLY TALKING, WANTING TO RESOLVE THINGS BETWEEN THE TWO OF US, EVEN IN THERAPY, AND OWNING UP TO HOW PARANOID HE'S BEEN.

He has a long way to go, but I'm finally standing up to him this has shown results. THANK GOD. It's going to be a tough battle.

My first step is - stay away from him, and only talk about this stuff in therapy. He came up with the idea today, I didn't ask him. So I"m going to jump on it and stay away. No more clinging and waiting around.


Hope,

I'm glad to hear of this new development. I hope your H is sincere and that this is not just another ploy to get what he wants. So I would recommend being cautiously optimistic and even suggest you consider operating under the assumption that his motives may be less than sincere. Not only will this help minimize any disappointment on your part if it is ploy, but maintaining some skepticism may in turn motivate your H to work harder towards resolving things between you two.

You are spot on about only discussing your issues in therapy- at least for now. That will help with getting your H's buy-in on attending counseling.

BTW, congrats on winning the part in the play. It wouldn't happen to be a Shakespeare play would it? smile

Have a great weekend.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/24/09 05:53 PM
Thanks, BJ. I completely agree. I will assume he's trying to butter me up until further notice. It's hard to fight the urge to get hopeful, but I've been burned too many times.

I also will not talk about this stuff alone any more. It just gets heated. If he will go to therapy, we can talk, otherwise, the lawyers can handle. I'm really going to be firm from now on.

I feel like I'm finally living life for me, not in terror of his constant criticism. Now I have to keep it up.

No, the play is not Shakespear - I do a lot of independent theatre in San Francisco. I got cast for the first time with a company that I've been interested in working with for a while now. A bunch of my friends have worked with them. I was invited by the director to audition, so I knew they were interested in me as well.

I almost cancelled my audition because this was the night my H threatened to fight a bigger divorce and I left and spent the night at my friend's. I was depressed. My mother said if the theatre company had invited and was expecting me, I should go and I'd feel better. I had no expectations of getting cast, but I did immediately. It did wonders for my self esteem. It was great to connect with friends I hadn't seen in a while. That boosted my sense of independence. It was a serious GAL move.

And it was the next day my H called offering to go to therapy and owning up to his part in things a bit.

I'm smart enough to know he's come around before only to end up more abusive later = so I'm still keeping distance and waiting and watching. Meanwhile, have a great day planned with my S and a friend today to work in the garden.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/25/09 03:30 AM
Just did my thing today. H didn't even call, just showed up. Weird. I have stopped the daily "what's the schedule" calls because I'm not contacting him at all. I knew he wanted to see S today, but had given me no details so I just ignored him. He came over, I had my neighbor and my parents here and H hid out in the back room. Also weird. He appeared for a little while and had played with S while neighbor and I went to the garden store. Then he slipped off with a vague "talk to you at somepoint." I'm just not going to bite. I'm going on with my life and he can contact me since he cant stick to a schedule.

I might also add he continued to be pleasant and chatty with me. Still supspicious, but hoping it's a positive reaction to my no-pursuing-taking-no-crap" stance. Time will tell.

He came up with the idea to go to a pumpkin patch tomorrow with S and me. Could be a set up for more testing. If he's nasty, I'll leave. If he behaves, will be a good family day for S. As for getting my hopes up, no way. Fighting the urge. Trying to face the fact that this just may be it - we'll never get back together - while hoping that if there's any chance we do, he now knows he has to change too.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/25/09 03:33 AM
Hang in there Hope. It sounds like you are on the right path.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/25/09 08:15 AM
Hope,

It really sounds like you are doing a lot better. Experiencing personal successes outside of the MR- like landing the role in the play- are great reminders that your M isn't the only thing that defines you as a person.

Have a great day tomorrow. Hope it turns out well at the pumpkin patch.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/26/09 02:11 AM
H showed up without calling again. Weird. He was very calm and pleasant. We went for family day at a pumpkin patch where we did a lot of laughing.
Day 4 of nice H. Agreed to go to MC this Thursday!
Also, loved "How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About IT" it gave me a lot of insight as to how I probably trigger my H without meaning to.

I don't know if this DB stuff works - anymore, I'm inclined to think we mainly get on here to support each other with moving on when we are left. However, dare I say things are starting to feel they may be turning around? If even temporarily, this feels good. I feel I have my power back - for now. I don't know if he'll ever come back, but I"m feeling strong anyhow.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
...I"m feeling strong anyhow.


Good for you!

I think that you're going about this the right way. Take the good, stay somewhat detached and be strong.

Hopefully the new part you got won't be all consuming. I know that the theater was something that H felt took priority over your M in the past so there will be a tendency for him to see you doing this and think “see, nothing has changed.” There’s no reason that there can’t be a better balance though.
It sounds like you’re in a good place right now.

He agreed to MC Thursday? This is great! There is of course the chance that he will go just to say he did and justify himself for leaving, but your H doesn’t seem like he’s the type that feels he needs to justify himself.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/26/09 04:42 PM
Venting here - H got all upset last WEd. when he had to be home, per our agreement, by 4:30 so I could go to my support group. But last night when S said he wanted to go flyinhg (H is a pilot), H makes plans to pick up S at 2:30 to go flying for the rest of the day.

I'm really p.o.ed that he's made a big deal out of not having any time to himself because of work, and then just takes off early today. He also did not ask me what my plans w S were.

And this weekend he did not let me know what time he would be here, he just showed up. H has also told me that the nights he's here to be with S, he does not want me "just coming and going" but want to know specifically my plans.

I'm feeling really jerked around. I know that if I call him and express these things, it will be more of an excuse to just slam me. But he's being so unfair. Advice?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/26/09 05:01 PM
WIth the above, the problem is, I told myself to stay away and not talk to him unless he calls me. But he's making plans with S without consulting me and it gets my goat. I'm so tempted to call him but this is probably a really bad idea.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/26/09 08:29 PM
More journalling - Well I was in IC today and put my H on speakerphone so I'd have support if the conversation went sour. H did not know I was in IC office.

Long story short, I asked if this was a good time to discuss the plan for tonight and H said "what plan?" and "What are your ideas?"
I was aghast that he hadn't put any thought into who would stay at the house tonight when he has made it clear he is not pleased with the current arrangement. So I calmly said what would work for me is that I come home after my support group and go to bed. H can either have the rest of the house for himself, like last night, or go to his place. He asked if I needed him to get up with S in the morning and I said no. Then he asked if I could pick up S after preschool today - work meeting would go a little late (H was originally going to pick up S to take him flying). He said what time he would pick up S and we agreed and got off the phone.

No arguing. Plan set.

Big success. We had a successful disscusion without negative emotions and I feel better knowing what the plan is for tonight.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/26/09 11:03 PM
Anyone had any success talking to a DB coach? I'm feeling just desperate enough...
Posted By: TrentC Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/26/09 11:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Anyone had any success talking to a DB coach? I'm feeling just desperate enough...


They go through the basics and help you set goals and recognize positive signs in your relationship.

I had my first call with one on Saturday. I'm looking forward to the followup call (I paid for 3 calls at once).
Posted By: Gardener Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/26/09 11:18 PM
Yes, I had 3 with Dottie and saw some small signs of "moving toward" from my wife. My sitch is different though as I found this site way too late after the bomb and used telecoach even later. Wife was way past checked-out at that point.

However, I say go for it. I've read overwhelmingly more positive feedback than negative (haven't read any negative, come to think of it.)

And I am going to schedule one more with Dottie to see if she has any last ditch effort rabbits she can pull out of her magic hat!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/27/09 04:27 AM
Wow, Day 5 of getting along. When I came home tonight, as we agreed, H did not give me any grief. We chatted for a moment, then I retreated to my room to do my thing. He came in a half hour later and asked - very politely - if I would mind if he went to the gymn and to his place tonight. I said no problem, and we chatted and laughed some more.

It was really good for our son to see us togther and getting along too. Well, I've given up the fantasy of him running back to my arms, but I'll settle for no abuse! Woot!

Def. small movements approaching me.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/28/09 08:43 PM
bump
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/28/09 08:49 PM
How are things going?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/28/09 08:54 PM
Well, H texted me back and forth three or four times last night, very perky and friendly. Sooooooo much of a change!

I may have blown it today by calling to "see what the plan is for tonight". It kills me that he refuses to make a plan with me. All I know is he is coming over to be with S. I have no idea if he's going to say or ask me to leave.

I asked is this a good time to talk about tonight's plan - he replied "I can't deal with that right now."

Then I felt a panic for bothering him at work.

If I let it go, he'll eventually call me I guess or I could just stay out and avoid him altogether. We're going to MC next monday.

So, overall, positive, but I'm still quite depressed that he left us. Don't know how I'm ever going to get him back. Just glad the anger has subsided for a week now.

How are you DBD?
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/28/09 09:52 PM
Hi Hope, I read somewhere that we have to think of our S like a squirrel. Think of how hard it is to try to feed one. How careful we have to make our movements and sometimes just be still for them to approach us.

Let it go, be patient. (Easy for me to say ;)) I know what you mean about feeling depressed that he left you. I struggle with that and today I realized it's bothering me because I haven't forgiven him like I thought I did. I'm working on trying to *truly* forgive him for the pain caused him leaving and all the mean things he's said/done. Could that be the same for you?

You still need to detach emotionally. See how anything he does/doesn't do "kills" you? And you pursued with your question about tonight's plans. You got lulled back to thinking he was his ol' self by the friendly TMs. (You made an "abrupt movement" and scared him.) And you have to be self-sufficient for your own happiness. Sorry if I'm being harsh.

Don't forget about your name, Hope4Luv. Keep the hope. Don't let discouraging thoughts get you down. I haven't been hopeful lately and it does NOT help with GAL and being attractive to H. Concentrate on the positive like you have and fight back thinking on the negative. That's what got me down yesterday.

Concentrate on being the best YOU. Have you read the thread "Quotes found on Divorcebusting (II)"? There are some pearls there.

Gosh, hope I didn't make this too long. Hang in there!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/29/09 03:20 AM
DBD thank you! That was very inspiring. I really appreciated the long post!

You are right, my IC also calls the H like a feral cat. Same as squirrel. No sudden movements. I shouldn't have called. He never called back. But I just did my thing - came home and we had an hour of nice family time with music, jack o lanterns, and dancing. Hoping it stays calm the rest of the night. I'm hoping to just go to bed , or leave if he gets angry.

How are you?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/29/09 05:25 AM
Wow - ONE WEEK of nice husband. Hasn't been like this for soooooo many months! After S went to bed, I went to my room to do my own thing. GUess who came in my room, tried on the halloween costume I made him, watched some stuff on the computer with me, right at the bed! He's been chatting and joking around all night! Dare I say - this is the man I fell in love with.

This from the guy who last week said he didn't want to be in the same house with me when he's here, and couldn't imagine ever having a R with me again.

Wow - I've been taking my power back, living life for me, and standing up to him. AND GETTING RESULTS!

AND he's coming to MC on Monday. Finally.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/29/09 04:34 PM
It was great last night and this morning. H stayed over and we had a fun morning with S.

Then I ruined it. I got hit on the side of my car last night WHILE I WAS PARKED. Go figure. H saw it this morning, I hadn't noticed it last night. H got very mad at me for not noticing and told me how scary it is that I don't notice things that big - I told him I had come out of my support group and was emotional and tired and didn't notice it. H just saw me as completely not paying attention and let in to me about it. H also doesn't believe me and thinks I hit something and was lying about it.

This has been a dynamic in our R - a) that I don't pay enough attention to things ( library books returned late, arriving places late, paying bills late, etc) and b) that i've lied before to avoid his anger.

So I'm staying more calm than usual - I walked away from the discussion. But I'm afraid now he feels justified again that I'm not worth coming back to because "I haven't changed."

Feeling so mad at myself.
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/30/09 03:01 AM
What about validating his comments? Yes, you didn't notice/pay attention and leave out the parts about defending yourself.
Posted By: Dia Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/30/09 04:36 AM
Hope, his behavior a) is not about you, and b) is not acceptable.

Please stop beating yourSELF up for HIS issues. One of the ways abusive men justify their attacks on women is by getting the woman to agree that their anger is her fault.

It isn't.

It's his own inner demon to deal with. And he can't deal with it on his own. He's not strong enough or skilled enough, so he puts it out there on you.
Posted By: Gardener Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/30/09 04:51 AM
Hope,
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Then I ruined it
How? I fail to see what you did.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
H also doesn't believe me and thinks I hit something and was lying about it.
That must hurt. A simple boundary statement on this kind of disbelief and assumptions on his part might be useful.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
So I'm staying more calm than usual - I walked away from the discussion.
Good. But did you tell him why you were walking away (boundary)?
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
But I'm afraid now he feels justified again that I'm not worth coming back to because "I haven't changed."
Haven't changed what, Hope? Not noticing that someone hit your car when you weren't even there? One could almost reword that sentence to read "But I'm afraid now he feels justified again that I'm not worth coming back to because 'I'm human.'"

Take a closer look at that sentence: "I'm afraid," "he feels justified" "I'm not worth coming back to," "I haven't changed." Such negative self talk. Don't do that to yourself. Are you in IC?

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Feeling so mad at myself.
Why, Hope? What did you do wrong?

Loving, gentle 2x4s,
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/30/09 05:23 AM
more of the same -= a great night with H - he offered me a beer, we walked to the store, hung out and laughed a lot.

And then I f***ed it up again. A month or two ago, I spilled a smoothie by the stereo - well, I didn't tell H - as you know, I'm terrified by his anger. This was still a bad idea.

The stereo shuts off tonight. H looks inside to find out why - the smoothie had gone into the electronics. Another classic move by me and exactly what drives him crazy about me. And that I didn't tell him about it. And that he's had that stereo for almost twenty years and he loves it. How do you make up for something like that?

He stayed calm, which was a miracle. DBD, I did just agree with him. I have also since not allowed any food in the living room. Because been known to constantly spill things.

Why did I not tell him about it right away so he could fix it? Why did I think if I closed my eyes, the problem would go away? I don't understand myself. All I know is I am trying to change.

H did also try. He expressed upset without being abusive and asked for space when he started feeling too angry. But I swear it's hard not to blame myself when I make so many dumb mistakes like this.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/30/09 05:40 AM
But I'll tell you the miracle. My H last week was so irrational, he was screaming at me for picking up a used envelope from the floor and throwing it away.

But tonight he did not scream, and this accident around his electronics (he's a computer engineer) is way more critical. He asked to go to his apt. and get some space and talked to me about why liquids and electronics are dangerous (I'm smart about a lot of things, electronics is not one of them). He has remained calm and is taking care of his own emotions and to calm them down.

I can't believe the change. It's truly a miracle. I'm so relieved in a way - not that we are having problems, but that we are talking about them calmly and maturely. Who knows. We may have hope yet.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/30/09 07:13 AM
Originally Posted By: Dia
Hope, his behavior a) is not about you, and b) is not acceptable.

Please stop beating yourSELF up for HIS issues. One of the ways abusive men justify their attacks on women is by getting the woman to agree that their anger is her fault.

It isn't.

It's his own inner demon to deal with. And he can't deal with it on his own. He's not strong enough or skilled enough, so he puts it out there on you.

Dia, Thank you for the firm reminder. I am changing my inner perspective to this - and it has had amazing effects. He has not yelled at me in over a week -= because I'm telling myself it's not about me, it's his issue.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/30/09 07:17 AM
Originally Posted By: Gardener
Hope,
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Then I ruined it
How? I fail to see what you did.
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
But I'm afraid now he feels justified again that I'm not worth coming back to because "I haven't changed."
Haven't changed what, Hope? Not noticing that someone hit your car when you weren't even there? One could almost reword that sentence to read "But I'm afraid now he feels justified again that I'm not worth coming back to because 'I'm human.'"

Take a closer look at that sentence: "I'm afraid," "he feels justified" "I'm not worth coming back to," "I haven't changed." Such negative self talk. Don't do that to yourself. Are you in IC?

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Feeling so mad at myself.
Why, Hope? What did you do wrong?

Loving, gentle 2x4s,


Thank you for the gentle bonk on the head.

No I'm not at fault for being hit - it's the "not noticing" that I was hit that freaks him out. I had been tired, it was night, and I was emotional having just come from a support group. I did not notice the scratches on the side of my car.

The fact that I did not notice (and again, see tonight's other mistake = spill on the stereo) demonstrate a pattern that he has defined me in - that I'm careless and don't pay attention and that will lead to some kind of disaster.

I'm working on my inner peace and positive self talk. Reminding myself that you are right = I'm human. I am a bit careless and forgetful. But so what. I have other gifts. My mantra today was "I may be a bit careless, but at least I'm not an A$$HOLE!"

and I am changing. I'm working to be more careful and responsible. I'm also working on not letting him put me in a space of shame and self doubt.He still tells himself that "I'm not changing" but hey neither is he. And until he can be a more forgiving, nice person, who is he to criticize?

Why am I mad at myself? I'm not changing fast enough smirk It's hard when you see yourself making the same stupid unconscious mistakes over and over. And I feel like every time I don't make a 180 is another day away from luring my H back by the new and improved me.

But maybe the real change here is to not take his crap anymore! Seems to be working. Thanks friends for the constant reminders.
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/30/09 11:33 AM
Hope, now look at who is DBing well. Thanks for your post on my thread. I believe all this great advice for you applies in my sitch too.

Keep up the good work and thanks for checking on me.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/30/09 05:31 PM
MC on Monday, meeting with lawyer Tuesday. Going over the marital separation agreement - looks like we can have the agreement, which defines finances and custody, WITHOUT FILING LEGAL SEPARATION! Things are looking up. And Halloween with S will be a blast.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/31/09 06:06 AM
Hey Hope,

Just checking in on your sitch. Looks like things appear to be moving in the right direction. When you go to MC on Monday, make a point to acknowledge to your C (while in the presence of your H) some of the positive things you have recently noticed with regards to your H. Aside from the backslides, it sounds like your H is making some effort to change so give credit where credit is due.

Well gotta go. Hope you have fun on Halloween.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 10/31/09 06:19 AM
Thanks as always BJ. I will.
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
When you go to MC on Monday, make a point to acknowledge to your C (while in the presence of your H) some of the positive things you have recently noticed with regards to your H.


That's a really good iddea. I second the motion! Stuff like that really seems to go a long way with people. It's also like positive reinforcement. I've heard that ignoring the negative behavors and rewarding the positive behaviors works really well for WAS's...and kids too ;p
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/01/09 12:35 AM
Geez...H just rolled in here unnanounced and sat silently as I got S ready for trick or treating - then tells me he was doing drugs at a party last night. I'm completely freaking out inside = but keeping cool on the outside. I'm furious!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/01/09 06:39 PM
H said there;s "some reason" he hasn't been calling before coming over. I'm nervous! Advice?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/01/09 06:42 PM
Yes. Act "as if.". Don't assume the worst.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/01/09 08:42 PM
THanks GIMA. That will be my goal this week. You are right.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/02/09 01:33 AM
Acting "as if" all day. Still disheartened. H is very tired, distant, and irritable. I get despondent when he's like this because my feelings of rejection are insurmountable at times. Having "that time of the month" always increases these insecurities...

Truly "acting" the "as if". On good days, I can actually convince myself, but today it's pure faking it. Mantra "as if, as if, as if" how in the heck are we supposed to act as if when our spouses hate us so much? He just seems to not care at best, hate me at worse. I'm so tired of hoping and waiting. I was ready to move on last week, then I got sucked in by his total 180 toward a nice H. Got hopes up, here I am again. When will I learn?

Guess I need to be more detached!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/02/09 02:55 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Geez...H just rolled in here unnanounced and sat silently as I got S ready for trick or treating - then tells me he was doing drugs at a party last night. I'm completely freaking out inside = but keeping cool on the outside. I'm furious!


Hope,

This needs to be addressed in MC. Has your H used drugs in the past or is this completely out of character for him? I can understand why you would be angry, but you are doing the right thing staying cool- someone has to keep a level head here.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/02/09 03:47 AM
It's out of character. He's a computer nerd, remember? However, most of his family is big on pharmaceuticals - prescribed or otherwise. I don't know what it was about. I dropped it. He'll tell me if he feels like it.

He was just super exhausted all weekend and I had to stop myself from being suspicious and paranoid. Given he hardly parties, I guess it's not a bad sign in general. In fact, it was so weird BECAUSE it was so out of character!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/02/09 05:37 PM
Well we aren't going to therapy. Back to darkness.

H freaked out about the "legal ramifications" of going to MC with me before a sep agreement is signed, and I didnt' want to deal with his craziness. I told him I wanted to cancel.

I took control of the situation. I realize now it's all a ploy anyhow to rearrange the situation with our son. H wants to have him at his apt. I think and he knows I won't go for it. It's going to be a tough discussion which is why I originally thought MC was a good place for it.

But if he's going to be nervous and controlling about it, I can't see how this will help. He may not even open up or feel safe listening to my side if he's so worried about what he says could be used in court against him down the line.

I feel good that I took control and told him I'd just go alone to the C session.

Now it's up to him to continue to make nice and have a civil conversation with me if he wants to negotiate with me.

What I'm wondering today is - all the niceness I saw the last week and a half - was this a result of my good DBing - my not calling him, getting off the phone first, having a back up plan to leave as soon as he gets angry - not pursuing etc.

Or, was it all a ploy on his part to butter me up so he could get something he wants from me?

This is such a hell.

I must not be doing DB right. I'm not seeing results as much as I thought. I read SP's great post and sure, I'm stopping a D, but I don't really see any point when there's no M? Any advice?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/02/09 05:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Well we aren't going to therapy. Back to darkness.

H freaked out about the "legal ramifications" of going to MC with me before a sep agreement is signed, and I didnt' want to deal with his craziness. I told him I wanted to cancel.

I took control of the situation. I realize now it's all a ploy anyhow to rearrange the situation with our son. H wants to have him at his apt. I think and he knows I won't go for it. It's going to be a tough discussion which is why I originally thought MC was a good place for it.

But if he's going to be nervous and controlling about it, I can't see how this will help. He may not even open up or feel safe listening to my side if he's so worried about what he says could be used in court against him down the line.

I feel good that I took control and told him I'd just go alone to the C session.

Now it's up to him to continue to make nice and have a civil conversation with me if he wants to negotiate with me.

What I'm wondering today is - all the niceness I saw the last week and a half - was this a result of my good DBing - my not calling him, getting off the phone first, having a back up plan to leave as soon as he gets angry - not pursuing etc.

Or, was it all a ploy on his part to butter me up so he could get something he wants from me?

This is such a hell.

I must not be doing DB right. I'm not seeing results as much as I thought. I read SP's great post and sure, I'm stopping a D, but I don't really see any point when there's no M? Any advice?


Hope,

First, you did the right thing, as long as you did what was right for YOU.

Second, if your H is using drugs, no way, no how should S be around that. PERIOD. You have to protect S from that.

Third, as far as why he did anything, it is a question we all want answered, but, in the end, it doesn't matter. B/c the point is not to understand why. The point is to get ourselves to a point where we can handle whatever comes our way. That's tough, but it is the truth. None of us controls where our M's will end up. We only control how we react to it.

So, re-group on what your plan is. Sounds like pulling back from H for a while may not be a bad idea. Not being rude, but being lovingly detached.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/02/09 07:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Well we aren't going to therapy. Back to darkness.

H freaked out about the "legal ramifications" of going to MC with me before a sep agreement is signed, and I didnt' want to deal with his craziness. I told him I wanted to cancel.

I took control of the situation. I realize now it's all a ploy anyhow to rearrange the situation with our son. H wants to have him at his apt. I think and he knows I won't go for it. It's going to be a tough discussion which is why I originally thought MC was a good place for it.


Hope,

While it is true that both the C and the C's notes can be subpoenaed, my understanding is that happens in only the most extreme cases. If your H is so concerned about "legal ramifications" then he simply needs to be careful about what he says in therapy. In fact, the whole "legal ramifications" argument is a bunch of baloney- it's a cop out. It seems to me that if anything, the SMART thing for your H to do would be to embrace MC at this point, especially after admitting to taking drugs at the party. Taking drugs at the party shows a lack of stability and poor judgment on his part- issues that can and will have a bearing on his shared custody of your S. If the MC is part of your H's ploy to gain some sort of "advantage" in gaining custody of your S, I'd say it isn't very well thought out to say the least. In fact, I think the whole drug use episode is really a cry for help.

I think the fact that you are asserting yourself to take control of the situation is great and is demonstrative of the personal growth you have experienced these past few months. But I think you are missing out on capitalizing on a potential pivotal moment by excusing your H from attending MC. It really does not matter what you think or know your H's agenda is going into MC. It is irrelevant. I suspect that you may be assuming that the conversation with the C is going to go in a certain direction based upon someone's agenda. It is not. Same thing applies with regards to how you think H is going to react while in MC (nervous and/or controlling)- these are going to be very short lived issues in the MC sessions. As far as your H not wanting to talk much- that is fine too since he will benefit from just listening to your interaction with the MC and the feedback the MC has to offer. I suspect that it won't take long for your H to "open up" in MC either.

Quote:
Now it's up to him to continue to make nice and have a civil conversation with me if he wants to negotiate with me.

What I'm wondering today is - all the niceness I saw the last week and a half - was this a result of my good DBing - my not calling him, getting off the phone first, having a back up plan to leave as soon as he gets angry - not pursuing etc.

Or, was it all a ploy on his part to butter me up so he could get something he wants from me?


From your description, it sounds like your H is making an honest effort. What he has demonstrated this past week and a half may be all your H is capable of right now. Be the bigger person, be charitable and give him the benefit of the doubt.

Quote:
I must not be doing DB right. I'm not seeing results as much as I thought. I read SP's great post and sure, I'm stopping a D, but I don't really see any point when there's no M? Any advice?


I think you are doing better than you think! As far as my advice goes, it remain the same: Get your H to MC no matter what. Let him continue to think he is the brainiac in control of the sitch, it's all part of his master plan. Whatever. Let him think he is going to control the conversation in MC and be able to say whatever he wants. (The C may very well indulge him for awhile too, but don't worry about that.) If he needs a push in the right direction, point out that the drug use at the party was a lapse in judgment and that by attending MC he'll be demonstrating that he is "on top of things" and addressing the issue.

Once in MC, you need to be patient. Let the C do their job and draw your H into the conversation- allow him to open up. This may come during the first session or it could be the third or fourth session. Just treat these first few sessions as your H's own personal C sessions disguised as MC sessions. Once in MC, I can give you more ideas/suggestions to consider.

I think that MC is the best thing you can do for yourself and especially your H right now. Good Luck!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/03/09 05:36 AM
thanks guys. We'll get to MC, but not now. After the papers are signed. Apparentely, I realized last night, H only agreed to go this one time and to discuss possibly taking S out of the house (we're not talking after a D, we're talking now while we're in limbo. I realized I'm more interested in postponing that discussion, because I'm happiest having H come here to be with S.

All the stuff BJ says about MC can only come when he's committed to MC for a while. If. I'm just laying low now because I don't know.

I will try to not be distrustful and give him the benefit of the doubt.

However, he is very poed at me right now. did I mentioned I spilled a smoothie in the living room and some got in his stereo receiver? He's cleaning it out and it may survive but he is furious at me and has been cold and distant ever since. It's another mistake that proves to him how unreliable, flakey, untrustworthy I am - in his mind. He even posted on twitter about how he's cleaning bluberries out of his receiver - and ended with "Don't ask..." which of course is an invitation to ask and he knows I will read that. I don't appreciate the public humiliation but I will say absolutely nothing. It's not worth losing my inner peace over.

However, I do get a sense of panic. This just instantly killed the goodwill between us. It's another instance of me feeling like "I f***ed it all up again."

On a more positive note, I texted H today saying I'd be happy to stay home tonight if H wanted to go to his apt after putting S to bed, or I'd be happy to stay elsewhere. H actually said he'd be home and didn't mind if I was too. I couldn't believe it.

so I'm in the back room, he's in the living room presumably cleaning his stereo and working and whatever. But he didn't ask me to leave. For what it's worth.
(((((Hope)))))

I have to say that it isn't clear to me that he has a very realistic picture of what a balanced relationship between two adults looks like. I mean, could you have handled the Smoothie thing differently? Sure. But you knew how he would react, and he didn't disappoint. That's not how things should be, really, is it?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/03/09 05:48 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall


Second, if your H is using drugs, no way, no how should S be around that. PERIOD. You have to protect S from that.

Third, as far as why he did anything, it is a question we all want answered, but, in the end, it doesn't matter. B/c the point is not to understand why. The point is to get ourselves to a point where we can handle whatever comes our way. That's tough, but it is the truth. None of us controls where our M's will end up. We only control how we react to it.

So, re-group on what your plan is. Sounds like pulling back from H for a while may not be a bad idea. Not being rude, but being lovingly detached.


About drugs, that's a good point, I should talk to my lawyer. Like I said, it's out of character, but he is also "self medicating" for anxiety and stress - it's a concern. Unfortunately, he does it all "off record" in other words, he absolutely makes sure his medical record is squeaky clean, then he diagnoses himself and gets the meds online without prescription. It's weird.

As for "why" - I guess my tendency is to ALWAYS blame myself. I guess I don't have to do this laugh

It's weird - even through all the anger, the abuse, moving out, blaming me - I still remember the man I fell in love with who I could share anything with and he totally "got" me. I could trust him with anything. I don't know where that man is anymore, but I keep feeling he's in there somewhere. When the anger cools, perhaps that sweet person will feel ready to trust again. I just have no idea. Maybe he's gone for good. Maybe he never existed. All I know is I'm ready for someone who can love me even if I mess up. Even if I hurt them. Even if I ruin their stereo, or say things I should not have in anger, or scream and fight, or any other mistakes I've made. That no matter how hurtful I've been I'm ready for someone who knows in my heart I'm a good person and I care and I'm ready to give and receive love. Someone who can forgive and have compassion. I thought I married such a man, but he seems gone now.

I really appreciate all of your support. I wish I could afford a DB coach but I really can't as my H is the breadwinner and I"m the at home mom and I'm about to have a small piece of the pie - so that I can stay in the house. And, he pays the credit card bill so if he saw the DB charge - oooh, there'd be questions. So keep me on the DB straight and narrow friends! You're all I've got for now!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/03/09 05:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Virtually_Handsome
(((((Hope)))))

I have to say that it isn't clear to me that he has a very realistic picture of what a balanced relationship between two adults looks like. I mean, could you have handled the Smoothie thing differently? Sure. But you knew how he would react, and he didn't disappoint. That's not how things should be, really, is it?


That's the mess we've been in for so long, VH. You got it. How can I fess up to a tyrant? But that doesn't excuse me not telling him. I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't but I should have told him instead of him finding crusted smoothie on his stereo. But what's a bigger price to pay when broken - a new stereo, or a person's heart? Thank you for reminding me that he doesn't understand a balanced relationship. No, we have an angry uptight man, and a woman who is constantly feeling like a screw up. Well I'm trying very hard to build my self esteem.

But then, of course we're all here because things aren't as they should be. But would he have been as uptight, angry, and cold about this situation before we separated? Most likely. I'm just so ashamed and mad at myself .It's like a curse. He walks in the door, I break or spill something. and just when things were starting to go better.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/03/09 01:34 PM
Quote:
As for "why" - I guess my tendency is to ALWAYS blame myself. I guess I don't have to do this


No, Hope, you don't. This HAS to change regardless of whether you stay M'd or not. Humility and self awareness are one thing (healthy to an extent). But, always blaming yourself indicates you do not perceive yourself as valuable and with a high worth. Really, just basic self esteem.

Now, it sounds like your H has fostered this kind of thnking. But, you don't get off free here - you let that happen. You can't change HIS thoughts/words, but you sure as he!! can change whether YOU let this kind of thinking happen. DON'T. It is not productive or healthy.

And, I get this too:

Quote:
It's weird - even through all the anger, the abuse, moving out, blaming me - I still remember the man I fell in love with who I could share anything with and he totally "got" me. I could trust him with anything. I don't know where that man is anymore, but I keep feeling he's in there somewhere. When the anger cools, perhaps that sweet person will feel ready to trust again. I just have no idea. Maybe he's gone for good. Maybe he never existed. All I know is I'm ready for someone who can love me even if I mess up. Even if I hurt them. Even if I ruin their stereo, or say things I should not have in anger, or scream and fight, or any other mistakes I've made. That no matter how hurtful I've been I'm ready for someone who knows in my heart I'm a good person and I care and I'm ready to give and receive love. Someone who can forgive and have compassion. I thought I married such a man, but he seems gone now.


I'm pretty sure just about everyone on these boards could say the person they M'd isn't there anymore. I know I can. So, I feel for you - I really do.

And the I want to be M'd to someone who loves me no matter what - well, in my book, that IS the definition of M. And it is EXACTLY what I crave. But before that can happen, we have to love ourselves and learn to be happy just being alone. Only then can we have the ability to have a truly happy, loving R with another person.

Finally, realize that you ARE worthy of such a R, and you deserve it. Your H is not acting like a loving H. And I agree with VH that your H doesn't seem to understand what a M is - a partnership, not a dictatorship.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/04/09 03:09 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
But before that can happen, we have to love ourselves and learn to be happy just being alone. Only then can we have the ability to have a truly happy, loving R with another person.

Finally, realize that you ARE worthy of such a R, and you deserve it. Your H is not acting like a loving H. And I agree with VH that your H doesn't seem to understand what a M is - a partnership, not a dictatorship.


Is it true? The ability to be alone is the key to finding a happy M? Talk about counter intuitive!

I'm trying not to call H. Keep up the space and distance that worked last week. But today all day I've had enormous panic attacks - like how can I make it through this. How can I act as if when I feel like I'm dying inside?

Sorry to be so down. It just seems so many on this forum don't bring their spouses back and I"m feeling hopeless. How to keep a PMA when I'm suffering from panic and depression?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/04/09 03:20 AM
Hope,

To answer your question, YES. If you don't value and love yourself, I don't see how you (or anyone else) can have a healthy R with anyone else.

Also, do you have a counselor. A counselor could really help you through many of these issues. If $ is an issue, you should check with your health insurer and see if you have coverage for counseling or seeing a psychologist.

Take a deep breath. This is a marathon, not a sprint. You simply have to calm down. Don't blame you for feeling like you do, but you have to control yourself.
Posted By: Deep Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/04/09 03:28 AM
Hope you won't mind me chiming in to say if it's not the key, it's an important facet of being happy, which may or may not include having a happy M.

Think about it, if you place the responsibility for your happiness on anyone else, how would that person feel? It's a huge, huge burden, and for a person in WAS mode, there's hardly a bigger turn-off. Not to mention that there's invariably going to be disappointment cropping up, on both sides.

And that's just "for him". Taking back responsibility and control of your life and happiness is going to be a very precious gift to yourself.

Shades of "Gucci/Robx" ... who the heck wants a clingy, needy, whining monkey on the back? People always take for granted what is there for them 24/7; they yearn for what they could lose or do not have. Your mental attitude could be speaking volumes to him now, and I don't think you'll like to hear what it is saying.

It's ok to have downtimes, we all have them, and it's so hard to stay positive or even not to be perpetually at rock bottom. But you have to do it. For you.

Whether others on this forum bring their spouses back or not is besides the point. They're clawing their way out of the abyss one way or another and they're going to be fine. Life is going to be happy, and sad, for a variety of reasons that happens in life.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/04/09 07:12 AM
Thanks GIMA and Deep. I do have a counsellor, although I am going to have to cut back to once or twice per month. But he's so great and we are working on the self esteem and being happy so it's worth it!

I love the Gucci/Robx-esque advice. I need that reminder. Yes, I have to be happy alone for me (and my S) primarily, but I do notice a shift in our R when I pull back and am focussing on me. I guess it helps to show I'm ok either way. That's a bonus.

I did resist all the needy behavior tonight. Wanted to call H but cought myself that I was making up excuses to do so and it was panic-based. Practiced DB's "stop sign" with my negative thoughts. It was a challenge. I was way down today, but I'm feeling more stable right now. Tomorrow will be a little better, I'm sure.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/04/09 07:22 AM
Deep, et al - but for the WAS - will they ever yearn for what they cant have? I mean, they walked away, so they assume they can have us. But if we walk away - maybe they just don't care because they have chosen not to have us anyhow.

It's just one of those DB principles I've always struggled with.
Posted By: Deep Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/04/09 02:01 PM
Hope, I hope this does not come across like a glib answer (and the more experienced posters may weigh in better) - but part of the point of doing this makes the question you asked immaterial, not unimportant, but immaterial. You don't decide for him, you certainly don't control his feelings. You're not going to let his sticky little fingers slide the happiness scale of your life depending on his whims and fancies.

If he walks and stays away, that's too bad. For him. Disappointment, yes, sadness yes, devastation? Nahs, got no time for that.

If I'm pushed for a "practical" answer, I'll say it depends on how deep they're in the fog (no pun intended!). They didn't really walk away from you - they thought they were walking away from hurt, pain, boredom, resentment ... into a world of freedom, new beginnings, potential new romance, excitement. You can try to jolt them into seeing exactly what they're giving up, and there is always a chance that the delusion will wear off all the faster.

But you're worth so much more than letting your lifewait on his waking up.
Posted By: TrentC Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/04/09 02:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Deep, et al - but for the WAS - will they ever yearn for what they cant have? I mean, they walked away, so they assume they can have us. But if we walk away - maybe they just don't care because they have chosen not to have us anyhow.


Deep has the right answer: It doesn't matter.

In theory, it should make a difference. They walked away and expected you to chase them. If you don't, it may cause them to wonder why not? But if you are ever to be the happy, confident person that has a chance of rekindling the R, you can't preoccupy yourself with their feelings.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
It's just one of those DB principles I've always struggled with.


Well, there isn't a really logical answer. And you're right; it may not work for everyone, which is why one of the DB principles is "do what works, and stop doing what doesn't work".

* Pursuing almost never works; so stop pursuing for a few days and see what happens.
* Pleading with them to stay almost never works; next time the R comes up, agree that the marriage is beyond hope and see how they react.
* Moping around the house wondering why your spouse doesn't love you doesn't work; so try being happy without them and see if they notice.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/04/09 06:59 PM
Thanks people! I will work on this and respond later. Gotta run now. I resisted the urge to pursue again this morning - I'm freaking out because our "Marital Separation AGreement" (with no filing, hopefully) is gettin to the finalization point. H and I are planning on talking tonight. I must stay calm, cool, collected - because he's going ot expect me to totally freak out and be emotional. Which I am. Which is why I resisted the urge to call him. Now off to live life for me...back soon.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/07/09 02:41 AM
Some ups and downs - good talks, and weirdness.

Please remind of me of the counter intuitive DB principle to help me cope with H's mysterious activities. He says "he's busy" but won't explain. I'm sure there's no OW, but dropping hints about doing drugs (which he later said was only smoking pot - big deal) has got me freaked out. It's like the only thing that seems fishy is that he's acting fishy.

Do I just pretend I don't care and don't mention it?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/07/09 02:48 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Some ups and downs - good talks, and weirdness.

Please remind of me of the counter intuitive DB principle to help me cope with H's mysterious activities. He says "he's busy" but won't explain. I'm sure there's no OW, but dropping hints about doing drugs (which he later said was only smoking pot - big deal) has got me freaked out. It's like the only thing that seems fishy is that he's acting fishy.

Do I just pretend I don't care and don't mention it?


Hope,

That's a tough call given the drug reference. If he's smoking and willing to admit it to you, he's probably doing more.

Since you have a little one, I think you need to keep a very close eye on your H's behavior. Not for you, but for the protection of your child.

Absent the drug issue, I think you are talking about a 180 (assuming your normal reaction would be to ask what he was up to).
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/07/09 05:01 AM
Agreed on both accounts. Luckily, he seems clean when when around S5, so what else can I do?

I've decided that his choices are his own and I can't make myself crazy wondering what he's doing with his free time. 180 it is! Frankly, I told him just to have fun this weekend. - despite my suspicions. Do I really want to know what he's doing? Not really!
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/07/09 07:26 PM
Hope,

This is the attitude you have to adopt in order to survive, otherwise you are right- you are going to drive yourself crazy wondering/worrying about what your H is doing.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/08/09 03:09 AM
Dealing with my panic attacks over him being gone by realizing my emotions and actions are about me, and probably more about my early family issues, and his emotions and actions are about him. It saves me from the anxiety of feeling rejected, not good enough, etc. If I imagine him leaving is about him and his issues, instead of the fact that I'm such a horrible person who ruined everything, I feel better. Who knows what the truth is, but I have to keep out of depression. I get pulled way down and I'm trying very hard to keep my head sane!

At least when S5 was crying because he missed daddy, H called right back when I asked him to talk to S on the phone. That's the minimum I can expect.

so, working on the 180s - just not freaking out over any of H's actions. Staying dark with the exception of coordinating over S.

The pain is sometimes unbearable, but I feel proud when I pull myself out of it.

"As if", although I know I'm fooling myself so it's difficult, also helps. I don't come at H in attack mode when I can think "as if".

Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/08/09 03:13 AM
Hope,

I am really sorry for your struggle. But, please understand NO ONE is perfect and that the breakdown in a M is never ONE person's fault.

What do YOU think of YOU? To he!! with what H says/thinks. You know he is not thinking well right now. Are you comfortable with you? If so, what does it matter what H thinks. If not, what's it going to take to get you comfortable with you?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/08/09 05:01 AM
Thank you GIMA

I guess you're right, I don't like much of me right now. I don't have a good idea how I'm going to support myself when the alminony runs out, I'm pretty depressed, and I know what my problems in my M were. Need to work on self esteem.

I know I'm a good mom - and have a good sense of humor, I"m smart, kind. BEsides that I feel like a loser and need to work on that. It is really hard to face rejection from the person who vowed to love me forever.

But ok, up to feeling better about me. THX.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/08/09 01:15 PM
Hope,

Have you heard of a book called "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman? I think it could help you.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/08/09 06:11 PM
I've seen that title on the threads - I will definitely check it out - great to deal with depression and anxiety, I'm sure.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/08/09 06:59 PM
Just a friendly suggestion I hope does not come across as preachy but from a place of concern and understanding. If you are feeling anxiety (which is normal in these type of life altering situations) that is beyond the expected anxiety one might feel, PLEASE see a dr and counselor.

I only gently urge you to do this because after 21 months of nonsense from my WAS my anxiety was so deep I could no longer function, leave my house or even operate as a normal human being. I *thought* I was doing a good job hiding it and I was coping with my anxiety I was just doing so in a very unhealthy way. Eventually it got so bad I was hospitalized and diagnosed with a situational panic disorder.

Meds are not "magic pills" but they do help remove the physical burdens of anxiety so YOU can do the emotional work without feeling like your heart is going to blow out of your chest from anxiety.

I was terrified after being in the hospital and going to the psych for the 1st time had me shaking in my boots. When I walked in the office the first thing I noticed was a HUGE sign that read "if you walked in this door for help you are strong".

It is not easy to take that first step and in my case I didn't. My mother had watched me decline to such a state she showed up at my house and gave me 2 options.... (A) she would take me to my dr. at once or (B) she would be taking me to the hospital. I did not fight her, I knew she was right.
Posted By: TrentC Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/08/09 07:39 PM
Originally Posted By: CityGirl
Meds are not "magic pills" but they do help remove the physical burdens of anxiety so YOU can do the emotional work without feeling like your heart is going to blow out of your chest from anxiety.

I was terrified after being in the hospital and going to the psych for the 1st time had me shaking in my boots. When I walked in the office the first thing I noticed was a HUGE sign that read "if you walked in this door for help you are strong".


I agree totally.

Do not be afraid to seek professional help, especially with strong feelings of depression of anxiety. I feel confident in saying that I, and my relationship, would not be where they are today if I haven't gotten on anti-anxiety medication.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/09/09 05:10 AM
Ok, people, I hear you. I need to do this. I had good success talking with a specialist in trauma on Friday -= so that takes care of the counselling part - i will continue to see her was able to care for myself much better after that. As for the meds, it's something I"ve put off doing, but I also put off talking to the counsellor and am sooooooo glad I did. I'll make a dr. app. this week. If I have help controlling the physical symptoms, that would be huge. I've got all those shaky and jumpy and dizzy feelings, and in addition, I can hardly eat. Having a healthier body will help my mind.

I must say that once I started taking care of me this weekend, H responded with much more openness. It really is the key, either way, no matter what the spouse does. It's like everyone has always told me, but I'm finally beginning to experience it.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/10/09 09:11 PM
I've been really focussing on my own life, on myself. Working on taking care of my own feelings and pulling back from H. I
'm seeing positive results. The calmer I am and the less I react with fear and anger to my H, the more calm and positive he has been as well.

Sunday morning i emailed him decided to put positive appreciation into the plan. I thanked him for being fair on our marital separation agreement, and for talking and comprimising about the weekend care schedule for our S. (H has been just showing up without making plans).

He responded by saying he noticed how reasonable I've been and even more so than he has been at times.This was a big step. Usually he is frustrated at "my freaking out" (even though as you may know from my thread H has anger problems). I demonstrated my calm and he noticed and responded well. Recently he has stopped insistence that I am out of the house when he is here.

Baby steps.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/10/09 09:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I've been really focussing on my own life, on myself. Working on taking care of my own feelings and pulling back from H. I
'm seeing positive results. The calmer I am and the less I react with fear and anger to my H, the more calm and positive he has been as well.

Sunday morning i emailed him decided to put positive appreciation into the plan. I thanked him for being fair on our marital separation agreement, and for talking and comprimising about the weekend care schedule for our S. (H has been just showing up without making plans).

He responded by saying he noticed how reasonable I've been and even more so than he has been at times.This was a big step. Usually he is frustrated at "my freaking out" (even though as you may know from my thread H has anger problems). I demonstrated my calm and he noticed and responded well. Recently he has stopped insistence that I am out of the house when he is here.

Baby steps.


Good. Keep modeling the behaviors for him.
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/12/09 02:57 AM
How're things Hope?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/12/09 07:09 AM
Better this week. We have our Marital Settlement agreement agreed upon - we just need to have it finalized by the lawyers. I got H to agree not to actually file for legal sep! And, to agree to five months of MC and not file for D for one year. Yeah!

I've been giving him lots more space - not calling, not pursuing, not pressuring - this too may be why things are calmer. Still some anger, but not nearly as bad as before. I've been working on staying calm and not letting him get to me when he's critical.

How are you DBD? I'll check up on your sitch now...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/13/09 07:18 AM
H brought up the marital settlement agreement again - he's still aching over the stipulation of therapy and of not filing legal sep. I got emotional and into R talks - not a good idea. He got frustrated at me for not "sticking to the subject" and "wasting his time".
Again, the script - I don't believe your changes will last, I think you will flip out at a moment's notice, I'm only going to MC because it was the only way to get you to sign the agreement, etc. I panicked and got depressed. I thought things were going well.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/13/09 08:35 AM
Hope,

Sounds like things are going as well as can be expected. Hopefully you guys will be getting into MC soon.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/13/09 10:02 AM
Thanks BJ. I"m just tired of being blamed for all the problems - especially in the face of such glaring emotional abuse. I'm stunned at his ability to blame me for everything.
Just checking in. Hi. My thoughts and prayers are still with you and your family.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/13/09 01:23 PM
Quote:
I got emotional and into R talks - not a good idea.


Yep.

Quote:
I thought things were going well.


Because you had an expectation. And that's the danger in having them. It sets you up for a fall.

Hope, you have got to work on detaching and focusing on you and your child. You simply cannot worry about what your H may or may not do.

You are allowing your H to dictate what you do, think and feel. Until you unhitch your happiness from him, you will continue to ride the roller coaster HE's driving.

It's your choice, but you can choose to continue on the roller coaster or you can step off and wave at H as he goes by for another lap. What YOU decide to do is within YOUR control.

What are you afraid of?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/13/09 06:38 PM
Thanks everyone.
GIMA - I don't know how to do that yet. Help?
I still find myself hoping every single day that he will come back, come around, feel the loss, etc. I begin to doubt the baby steps and feel frustrated. It's not like he's totally gone yet, so I know there's still hope, and I must keep up my DB efforts. However I get feeling down when he doesn't recognize that our M is worth saving. How do I not let this affect me?

I worry what he may or may not do because he can be so emotionally abusive. In california, this has no bearing on a divorce so he is in no way forced to look at himself. I guess I'll keep working on how I want to be treated and walk away when that doesn't happen. I guess I need to remember that if he's going to blame me for all the problems, there is nothing I can do to save the M on my own. I can only not blame myself.Any more suggestions, oh great detachment guru? You seem to really have this down.
Posted By: Coach Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/13/09 06:54 PM
Quote:
How do I not let this affect me?


Prepare for being divorced. One of my coaching maximx is: Confidence comes from being prepared. You get emotional because you are afraid of what the future might be without your husband.

Quote:
I worry what he may or may not do because he can be so emotionally abusive.


Learn how to set boundaries.

I feel __(emotion)____________.

When you do __(behavior)_________.

When you do __(behavior)_______, I will _(consequence)_________.


If you continue to (behavior)___________ then the ultimate result will be _(how it effects the relationship_________.



"H, I feel disrespected when you attack me personally. When you call me names or abuse me in any way, I will point it out to you and then leave the room. If you continue to treat me this way then I will have to consider whether or not I will remain in this relationship."
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/13/09 07:24 PM
Hope,

I am not a guru by any stretch of the imagination. I have learned a ew things, but only after paying attention to many others here who know much more than me.

Alright, first, read this article:

Developing Detachment

Many of us (myself included) were co-dependent upon our spouses. We relied on them to make us happy, fulfill us and make us "feel whole." The truth is, the only person responsible for my happiness, fulfilment, wholeness is....ME. A relationship built on the belief that my spouse is supposed to make me happy is destined to fail. And, it's just unhealthy.

So, we all have to embrace the fact that we, and we alone, determine if we will be happy. You have to like yourself and have respect for yourself in order for you to be happy. That means respecting yourself enough not to be treated badly (being insulted, yelled at, run down by another). If you are treated badly, you played a part in LETTING it happen. Either you put up with it, or you simply accepted it as normal (maybe you thought you deserved it). So, like yourself enough to be treated well.

Once you understand, and accept, that you alone are responsible for your happiness, you stop putting your moods, emotions and feelings in someone else's hands. That doesn't mean you don't open yourself up to a relationship. It means that if spouse is having a bad day or is in a bad mood, it does not make you have a bad day/mood. And that's b/c your happiness does not depend upon SPOUSE's mood.

Now, detachment, I believe, means you know you will be ok no matter what. I know you don't want to be D'd, he!!, none of us really want to be D'd. But those are the cards we were dealt (and, quite frankly, dealt ourselves). So, you have to deal with it.

One of two things is going to happen - divorce or reconciliation. Obviously, reconciliation, if done for the right reasons, is what we want. But, our spouses are in the fog. And, maybe for the first time we have had to come to grips with the reality that we DO NOT CONTROL them. So, let that go.

That leaves D. Something none/few of us thought we would be dealing with, right? Well consider being D'd for a moment. Do you believe you will be lonely the rest of your life on this Earth if you were D'd? Do you honestly believe you could never find another person to share your life with? Notice I didn't say a person to "make you happy" b/c that's YOUR job. And the answer to the question is NO. Of course you will be happy. And, yes, there are many other people out there with whom you could be happy - and, dare you consider it - HAPPIER than you have EVER been?

The point is to reach the realization that if you end up D'd, it is NOT the end of the world. It seems like it now, but, really, it's not. You still have your children. You still have a long, full life ahead of you (IF you choose to make it so).

So, accept that you are ALREADY D'd (you are). Now, set about improving yourself for your NEXT R. You want that to be with your H, but it may not be. In either case, make the decision to be happy. More importantly, realize you WILL be fine no matter what.

And realizing the truth that is you WILL be fine no matter what IS detachment. And it leads to a better frame of mind and a healthier place. When I alone am responsible for my happiness, then I have no excuse being unhappy. NO EXCUSES.

So work on getting to detachment. Then, there is more work to be done. But, you can't do it until you get there first.
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/15/09 01:39 AM
Checking in again on you Hope. You got some great advice on detaching. I agree that you must detach. I feel like I finally have. It's easier in my sitch since H is out of the house and I don't see him nearly as much as you see yours.

I see my H with different eyes now and the ugly behavior he has shown to me is not what I deserve. I imagine if I were to start dating him now as if he were a stranger, would I be interested? NO. My attitude towards him changed. So, would you be attracted to someone treating you the way your H is?

Thanks for checking in on my thread. I hadn't updated it in a while since nothing was happening. But this week H and I finally made it to counseling. I am still processing it and will update.

On Gardener's thread there was a post on Let It Go from Serenity. So good.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/17/09 02:34 AM
Hope,

Coach hit the nail on the head in the post above. Great post by GIMA too. Check out the hyperlink on GIMA's post to the article on detachment. It is one of the best articles I have seen thus far on the subject and I think that you will benefit from reading it.

You have got to detach Hope. It's the only way you are going to manage through your sitch.

I hope all is well with you. Take care.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/22/09 05:30 AM
My H has been away since Th. morning - I just found happiness inside myself tonight. I have not been able to do it, but today I did. Now H comes back tomorrow and I'm super afraid of what will go down.
Posted By: Gardener Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/22/09 06:39 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Hope,

I am not a guru by any stretch of the imagination. I have learned a ew things, but only after paying attention to many others here who know much more than me.

Alright, first, read this article:

Developing Detachment

Many of us (myself included) were co-dependent upon our spouses. We relied on them to make us happy, fulfill us and make us "feel whole." The truth is, the only person responsible for my happiness, fulfilment, wholeness is....ME. A relationship built on the belief that my spouse is supposed to make me happy is destined to fail. And, it's just unhealthy.

So, we all have to embrace the fact that we, and we alone, determine if we will be happy. You have to like yourself and have respect for yourself in order for you to be happy. That means respecting yourself enough not to be treated badly (being insulted, yelled at, run down by another). If you are treated badly, you played a part in LETTING it happen. Either you put up with it, or you simply accepted it as normal (maybe you thought you deserved it). So, like yourself enough to be treated well.

Once you understand, and accept, that you alone are responsible for your happiness, you stop putting your moods, emotions and feelings in someone else's hands. That doesn't mean you don't open yourself up to a relationship. It means that if spouse is having a bad day or is in a bad mood, it does not make you have a bad day/mood. And that's b/c your happiness does not depend upon SPOUSE's mood.

Now, detachment, I believe, means you know you will be ok no matter what. I know you don't want to be D'd, he!!, none of us really want to be D'd. But those are the cards we were dealt (and, quite frankly, dealt ourselves). So, you have to deal with it.

One of two things is going to happen - divorce or reconciliation. Obviously, reconciliation, if done for the right reasons, is what we want. But, our spouses are in the fog. And, maybe for the first time we have had to come to grips with the reality that we DO NOT CONTROL them. So, let that go.

That leaves D. Something none/few of us thought we would be dealing with, right? Well consider being D'd for a moment. Do you believe you will be lonely the rest of your life on this Earth if you were D'd? Do you honestly believe you could never find another person to share your life with? Notice I didn't say a person to "make you happy" b/c that's YOUR job. And the answer to the question is NO. Of course you will be happy. And, yes, there are many other people out there with whom you could be happy - and, dare you consider it - HAPPIER than you have EVER been?

The point is to reach the realization that if you end up D'd, it is NOT the end of the world. It seems like it now, but, really, it's not. You still have your children. You still have a long, full life ahead of you (IF you choose to make it so).

So, accept that you are ALREADY D'd (you are). Now, set about improving yourself for your NEXT R. You want that to be with your H, but it may not be. In either case, make the decision to be happy. More importantly, realize you WILL be fine no matter what.

And realizing the truth that is you WILL be fine no matter what IS detachment. And it leads to a better frame of mind and a healthier place. When I alone am responsible for my happiness, then I have no excuse being unhappy. NO EXCUSES.

So work on getting to detachment. Then, there is more work to be done. But, you can't do it until you get there first.
This is one the finest Gima posts ever (and there have been many). The next time you or anyone else give the link to that great livestrong.com detachment article, a link to this post should be included.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/22/09 02:59 PM
Hope,

You are fearing something that you do not control and that, at this point, has only occured in your mind. Stop worrying about something you can't control. What food does it do?

While you don't control what your H does, you DO control how you react to it.

What are you afraid of? At the core, what is it?

And what helped you find that inner happiness (a very good thing you now know)? Hope, YOU are the only person who can take THAT inner happiness away. Why would you give H the control and power to take THAT away from you?
Posted By: brknheart Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/22/09 04:29 PM
great post earlier about detachment and happiness Gima. I am going through something similar, where I relied on my WAS a great deal and when she left I was devastated. She was pretty much everything to me and I was left with nothing. Ive been working the past couple of months on myself and it feels great. I still have my bad moments, usually last a couple of hours, but its better than having bad full days.

Hope, I havent seen my WAS in over a month, then she came by last week to drop something off. I told her I didnt want to see her, but she didnt think I was home. The encounter only lasted about 2 minutes, I didnt say anything to her only listened. When she left though, all the emotions came streaming back. It was hard. The hardest part of my situation is the loneliness, which I relied on her to fill. I am still working on that part, and I know I am getting better. People around me see it and I feel it. Your best bet is to go NC, it makes it easier to detach.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/24/09 07:50 AM
Thanks, all, especially GIMA. I haven't been responding b/c I'm letting these fabulous posts sink in. Really working on the making myself happy thing. And the 'I can only control what I do/think/feel - not what H does' thing. It's so proufound and permeates so many aspects of life, I'm just integrating it daily = will get an update to you all soon.

What helped me find inner happiness? Well, I had four days away from H. About half way through, my panic attacks stopped, I began to just be able to focus on my life wihtout him in the picture. This is not usually the case becasue of the child custody thing - we're always in each other's lives because we have a little boy. I could see how much happier I was just being away from him to focus on me for a while - I guess I need to find a way to focus on me even iwth him around so much.

Also, I spent Saturday gardening with a dear female friend and my son. The combination of fresh air, nature, a good friend, being productive, making my house beautiful - all combined to a peaceful feeling. I awoke totally depressed and panicked, I ended the day feeling strong, happy, and at peace.

What am I afraid of? Well immediately, anyone who follows my sitch knows I am afraid of H's anger and emotional abuse. That is foremost something I spend way to much time shivering in my boots over and trying to avoid by "being good enough" and yes, I know this is unhealthy. Secondly, I'm afraid of not being able to support myself with a little one (I've always been an at home mom) and losing my house. Thirdly, I'm afraid of the damage growing up in two homes will do my son.

Do I fear being lonely forever? Sure. Not because I wont meet anyone, but becaUse I have a long history of meeting these angry cold abusive guys. Almost exclusively. I not only fear dying alone, I fear spending my remaining days with more of an abuisve [censored]!


Posted By: Bridgestone Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/24/09 01:18 PM
((((H4L))))

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv

What am I afraid of? Well immediately, anyone who follows my sitch knows I am afraid of H's anger and emotional abuse. That is foremost something I spend way to much time shivering in my boots over and trying to avoid by "being good enough" and yes, I know this is unhealthy.


I can understand this very much. That is a reasonable thing to feel & be wary of, but chose a different action rather than shivering in your boots & trying 'being good enough' to control his abuse is not healthy. And I know that is easy to say to others smile

Tell the little girl inside Hope4Luv that she is good enough to be loved by the adult Hope4Luv.


Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Secondly, I'm afraid of not being able to support myself with a little one (I've always been an at home mom) and losing my house.
Again, understandable.... what could you do if you believed you can handle it?

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Thirdly, I'm afraid of the damage growing up in two homes will do my son.


Have you read about the damage inflicted on children who grow up in an abusive home seeing their mother disrespected by their father through emotional & verbal abuse? Think of the role model your son would then carry into his adult life & marriage? Think of your grandchildren & the possibility of that future damage.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Do I fear being lonely forever? Sure. Not because I wont meet anyone, but becaUse I have a long history of meeting these angry cold abusive guys. Almost exclusively. I fear spending my remaining days with more of an abuisve a$$hole!


It's hard to be lonely if you love being with yourself.

Having left an abusive a$$hole... I'll take the lonliness anyday to the walking on eggshells & constant worry, control & manipulation of 'life"... making sure he was 'happy' so he didn't blow up.

It gets better, I promise.. It's ok to feel your fears.. they are reasonable. I hope you can make choices from hopes, not fears though.

Peace
Bridge
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/24/09 02:28 PM
Hope,

This...

Quote:
What helped me find inner happiness? Well, I had four days away from H. About half way through, my panic attacks stopped, I began to just be able to focus on my life wihtout him in the picture. This is not usually the case becasue of the child custody thing - we're always in each other's lives because we have a little boy. I could see how much happier I was just being away from him to focus on me for a while - I guess I need to find a way to focus on me even iwth him around so much.


...sounds like you are on the right track. It's great that you could find happiness when H is not around. But, as you realize, the hard part is being that happy when he is around. Keep working on that.


Quote:
What am I afraid of? Well immediately, anyone who follows my sitch knows I am afraid of H's anger and emotional abuse. That is foremost something I spend way to much time shivering in my boots over and trying to avoid by "being good enough" and yes, I know this is unhealthy.


Yep, you're right. It isn't healthy. And, I hope you realize this is something you are letting yourself experience. Don't give H that power over you. If he yells or is disrespectful, calmly remove yourself from the "conversation" and room where he is. Tell him you will happily have an adult conversation with him, and by "adult," you mean civil, like two human beings treating each other equally. And until he is capable of having a civil discussion, you will not participate. This is a boundary Hope.

Quote:
Secondly, I'm afraid of not being able to support myself with a little one (I've always been an at home mom) and losing my house.


So, what information do you need to gather and examine to set your mind at ease? What are some available jobs in your area. Make a plan. It may not be easy, but it's not impossible to make it. Remove the fear of the unknown by arming yourself with information.

Quote:
Thirdly, I'm afraid of the damage growing up in two homes will do my son.


Understandable. I have that same fear. Anyone with a child and an ounce of compassion/conscience has that same fear. But, like the other posters, I agree that if your S is in an abusive environment, that is doing more harm to him than would a D. I'm not saying S doesn't need both parents, but that he needs BOTH parents. So, if he's really only getting one "parent" right now based on H's behavior, maybe D is not worse for him. Only you can answer that question.

Quote:
Do I fear being lonely forever? Sure. Not because I wont meet anyone, but becaUse I have a long history of meeting these angry cold abusive guys. Almost exclusively. I not only fear dying alone, I fear spending my remaining days with more of an abuisve [censored]!


So, you are afraid of what YOU may allow to happen to YOU? I know what you are saying. When that time comes, re-assess what is truly important to you in a R. Identify the qualities and character traits you want.

As for the fear of being lonely, I had that same fear. That was the bedrock fear motivating most (all?) of my negative feelings. Then I read some information about cognitive dissonance and cognitive distortion and learned what Coach meant when he said "Change your thought, change your emotions."

Take a look at these:

Cognitive Dissonance

Cognitive Distortion

"Cognitive dissonance" is basically the conflict a WAS experiences. "Cognitive distortion" is the next step a person takes to rationalize a bad decision into an acceptable one. But these two concepts will allow you to see how YOU are allowing pessimistic thinking to create a lot of negative emotions.

The exercise goes something like this. I have a fear - being D'd. Identify the base/core of that fear - I fear ALWAYS being lonely after D. Is that a rational, logical, probable belief? No, it isn't. So, change your thought to a reasonable, probable one - I will NOT be lonely after a D. Then, watch what happens with your emotions.

If you are a reader (I am), pick up a copy of "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman. It has literally changed the way I look at my life, all for the better.

Hope, I suspect that your self-estemm has taken a battering (something we can all say here). I think if you can work on your sefl esteem, a lot of your issues will either be gone or you will be able to manage them.
Don't be a stranger Hope. You're not alone. We're all still here for you.

It sounds like you're making progress.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/25/09 02:48 AM
Friends,

I'm brought to tears by all your responses, your thoughts, hugs, and concerns. Thank you so much for being here for me during this confusing and sad time.

I'll have to incubate on these ideas and respond soon - I'll be back.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/25/09 05:19 AM
I'm lost on cognitive dissonance - GIMA help?
Posted By: K4D Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/25/09 05:44 AM
From Wikipedia

Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, the awareness of one's behavior, and facts. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors.[1] Cognitive dissonance theory is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.

Dissonance normally occurs when a person perceives a logical inconsistency among his or her cognitions. This happens when one idea implies the opposite of another. For example, a belief in animal rights could be interpreted as inconsistent with eating meat or wearing fur. Noticing the contradiction would lead to dissonance, which could be experienced as anxiety, guilt, shame, anger, embarrassment, stress, and other negative emotional states. When people's ideas are consistent with each other, they are in a state of harmony, or consonance. If cognitions are unrelated, they are categorized as irrelevant to each other and do not lead to dissonance.

A powerful cause of dissonance is an idea in conflict with a fundamental element of the self-concept, such as "I am a good person" or "I made the right decision." The anxiety that comes with the possibility of having made a bad decision can lead to rationalization, the tendency to create additional reasons or justifications to support one's choices. A person who just spent too much money on a new car might decide that the new vehicle is much less likely to break down than his or her old car. This belief may or may not be true, but it would likely reduce dissonance and make the person feel better. Dissonance can also lead to confirmation bias, the denial of disconfirming evidence, and other ego defense mechanisms.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/25/09 06:24 AM
So, are you saying that the WAS attempts to justify leaving to themselves even in the face of evidence to the contrary?

As for helping me, I guess it could be "My spouse left me. Therefor I am unlovable ("always" thinking). instead I could turn it to "My spouse left me. Their loss. I'm lovable."

Hard to do when I seek to justify his leaving too! lol. I guess I tend to see all the things I did wrong and say, "of course he will never love me again." And this is CD. The realistic statement would be, "We both made mistakes, not just me. I am lovable no matter what he thinks, even with my mistakes. I am learning from them and am a better person because of that."

Looks good on paper. Will take some time to convince myself. THanks everyone.

Any more thoughts?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/25/09 12:53 PM
Hope,

The points from reading up on cognitive dissonance are, first, to show you the conflict in yor H's mind might be playing out and, two, to show you how negative absolutes (always, never, etc.) Can produce megative thoughts and emotions.

Also, cognitive dissonance is going on within you (and us), based on your on thoughts/beliefs such as H is the ONLY person with whom I can be happy. If you can change your thought, your emotions will follow.

Cognitive distortion is what happens when a person uses a version of negative absolutes (or other mechanisms listed on the cog diss link I posted) to rationalize (even justify) an unreasonable belief.

In the end, when I read up on this stuff, I saw a lot of my W, and ME, in these concepts. And its helped me change my emotions from bad to good by properly adjusting my thoughts to reasonable ones.
It seems like the beat theory to understand what is going on with our WAS(s). It helps make some sense of mood swings, confusion, and conflict they are going through.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/26/09 10:01 AM
These are fabulous tools to help thanks friends.
EB I've given up trying to understand my spouse. His constant anger and negativity are hurting me too much and I can't fathom why it's going on. I feel it is abusive, but I still don't even know. I'm so confused.

GIMA, Yes, I think this is helpful re: me feeling like I'll "never" be happy again, with anyone else, etc. It's empowering to stop those kind of thoughts.

I'm too concerned with how a D will affect my S to worry about myself. All my holding on at this point is for him.

I realized something tonight. H will probably not change. He will not come back as the loving H I once knew. He will continue to be the same mean a$$hole he's been. I have to stop thinking that DB is going to turn him into a kinder, more loving, pursuing person. It's just not happening. Gal and NC just gives him license to isolate and not care even more. I can only really drop the rope when I expect the worse - that he continues down the abusive path. In a way it's liberating because I stop trying to analyze my every move to try to win some love back. It's pretty depressing but I don't have to feel responsible for his angry outbursts anymore. (Although I still do - I'm getting there anyhow)
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/26/09 10:14 AM
AND I'm p.o.ed. I'm mad at him for leaving us. I'm mad at him for breaking up the family. I'm mad at him for not talking to me. I'm mad at him for yelling at me and S. I feel I am doing so much here to try and figure out what will work to hold the family together and I AM MAD that he refuses to sort through any of our problems. I am mad that he continues to blame, criticize, and belittle me. And maybe I am mad at myself for hanging on so long.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/26/09 01:40 PM
All normal emotions. Let them run their course then let them go. All of this is a process.

And, Happy Thanksgiving to you too Hope. Make it a great day.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/29/09 05:04 AM
Thanksgiving was aaaawfulllll
But I've made a turnaround. I am working on taking back my power. I;m tired of my H bullying and abusing me. It started when I saw him doing the same thing to our S. Suddenly my Mamabear instincts kicked in and I was ready for D! I'm actually plotting my case now. I've calmed down since, as we are actually finally starting MC after eight months since bomb. But I"m planning my life secretly just in case. I'm keeping my distance big time and standing over my S and watching H like a hawk.

H must have sensed it. In true DB style, he touched me for the first time in eight months (without me asking). When he met us at a christmas parade, he touched my back when saying hello. Then he placed video camera around my neck. It was amazing. They do pick it up when you are ready to move on.

His nice guy attitude is making me mushy again, but I have to buck up. I have to keep plottin gmy D case and my life without him while still giving MC a chance. I'm finally certain, after seeing him with S, that HE MUST CHANGE TOO - I'm done grovelling. OR ELSE I'M NOT TAKING HIM BACK. And believe me, this is a far cry from the despair I've been in all these months.

Pray for me I stay on track.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 11/30/09 05:41 AM
I've continued to focus on me, being strong and independent, making myself happy, and not taking crap from my H. My new attitude is having an immediate effect. My H actually invited me to his role playing game tomorrow night. This is huge. For the eight months since the bomb, he has consistently made it clear that I am not invited to his activities. He often even gets defensive when I ask what he's doing so I've progressed from making myself not ask, to not even caring anymore. It is at this point that he has invited me.

It was more of "you're welcome to come and play if you like" than a "I'd looooove for you to be there I miss you so much oxoxoxox" which of course I dream of. But between that and touching me twice the other night, I notice a shift from the usual "Leave me alone" stance he's had.

THANK YOU DR AND DB!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, it's not that big of a deal. But I'm amazed. When I really am getting stronger and just not caring anymore not sitting around missing him and wanting to call and talk = when I walk away or reject him when he's rude mean or sarcastic instead of taking it in = when I focus on life with or without him, focus on making myself happy = like all of you constantly say.....well, let's just hope it continues.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/01/09 07:14 AM
Hope,

You are sounding better every time I check in on you. Great PMA! I am so glad to hear that you are going to MC with your H. I think that your plan- prepare for the worst and hope for the best- is a good one. Stick with it. Regarding change, people can and do change and your H can too- but only if he has the will and desire to do so.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/01/09 08:44 AM
Thanks BJ - I hope so, because I feel like this whole thing is soooooo sloooooooooooooow.

I went to H's game night tonight. We laughed so hard we had tears in our eyes. It was a really fun group. I am so relieved we had a good time laughing. We haven't done that since the bomb. If anything, there has been so much anger and tears.

MC appointment is finally made for next monday. AFter waiting eight months!

I stayed cool - at the breaks and stuff, I just walked around and did my own thing. He approached me and invited me to walk to get a snack with some friends. He may have just been being polite, but I was glad I wasn't clingy and I was glad he didn't ignore me - like he usually does when he's over at the house.

Then I wanted to hug him at the end and of course I didn't since he made no gesture - tryiing to DB. But it felt so weird for us to be in our old happy mode of long ago and then just walk away and say BYE and go to our own apt.s.


Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/01/09 01:38 PM
Hope,

Patience. It is something that I had to force myself to do - NOT one of my strong points. But, just be patient.

Good on hte laughter. That is a fantastic way to build back a connection. It's hard to dislkie someone who can make you laugh.

And good luck on MC - I'm about to set out on that as well.

As far as the retreating to seperate apartments after an evening like that, I understand. But, just be satisfied with the NOW. Don't worry about the future or you will miss the present.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/02/09 07:01 AM
GIMA = thank you. You are so right. And I'm going to be reminding you of patience too! laugh

I'm finally feeling hope after so many months of pain. H confirmed to me that having a separation agreement that outlines our financial and custodial issues in the case of a D, actually relieves his mind to be able to go into MC and really work on our R. He sounds ready to go in and start looking at the R. FINALLY.

We have a long road ahead. But he started opening up to me about what has hurt him and why he is "skeptical" about our R. I really tried the listen and validate thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm also finally ready to express my feelings about his verbal abuse and not let him get away from hearing it. However, if he can finally start telling me why he has left - instead of just shutting me out, and being angry and blaming, like he's been for so long, it's a sign of him softening. If he can feel heard and validated, perhaps he will feel safer to hear me too.

I'm really hopeful about the therapy. It's still going to be a long road and this is so painful. But the glimmer of hope I'm feeling is something I haven't felt in months. Piggy backed on my new backbone of not taking his abuse, planning to live a good life with or without him, focussing on making myself happy, I think we're making some valuable steps in the right direction.

Thank you to all my friends who keep up with me and have given me so much support and wisdom. I couldn't be doing this without you. I wish I could meet you all and give you big hugs.

PS - he hasn't committed to coming home, but does agreeing to work on the R in MC count as "piecing?" IF not, what does?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/03/09 07:33 AM
Question:
I was browsing facebook tonight, and noticed my H took "married" off his info status. I know you're probably all going to advise me to not say anthing - but I'm furious ... just when we are starting to reoonnect, and go to MC?
Should I say anything?
Well.....
You think it would help you reach your goals?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/03/09 07:53 AM
Nope. Good point. My goals have to do with NOT FIGHTING, GETTING INTO MC, HAVING POSITIVE INTERACTIONS. However, why the f*** do I have to deal with this?! Trying to calm down. I would def. be in for a fight at this point...
Maybe don't look at his FB page.
Posted By: Lotus Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/03/09 08:16 AM
I would do it in a playful way, when things are light between you. then I would casually say, "So, I hear you're not married...." And he'll say, "what do you mean?" And then you can say "well, it's on your FB page, it says you're not married." And then you see what he says.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/03/09 08:32 AM
lol another good point.
Sorry I don't have any good advice. It would really #$%& me off too.

Honesty I'd let it go for now and bring it up when the time is right in counseling. Well lookey there, I did squeak out a little suggestion. ; )
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/03/09 08:44 PM
THanks everyone. I had a realization after reading your great posts and resting - I don't have to get upset! Of course it shocked me at first, but I don't have to hold onto it! Woohoo Way to detach!

I'll combine all the advice - drop it for now, bring it up in counselling, and lightly with a sense of humor.

Now back to making me happy! Thanks friends.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/04/09 02:41 AM
Hope,

My W "un-friended" from FB a couple months ago. I was anything but crushed. I don't think she has changed her marital status- yet- I haven't checked- but I wouldn't sweat it. The whole FB thing is stupid anyway- I hate it. It's so juvenile and a waste of time. Not to mention it's role in giving rise to internet EAs and breaking up families. It would be nice to just see that stupid site go away.
Posted By: ALJ Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/04/09 05:03 AM
Hi Hope4Luv,

I know how you feel about seeing your H facebook status changed to "not married." You have every right to feel angry. My H and I are not "friends" on facebook but I had a chance to see my H facebook page through someone else because he is a friend of theirs. Well, for his status he had "Its complicated" and I saw things that I probably didn't want to see (H is using a "who wants to date me? application on his page.)

Now before I saw this, I used to go through his friends list every nite looking at all the girls he had as friends, torturing myself and obsessing. But after seeing his page, I have not been to his friends list since. I told myself that I am better than that and I let go of the anger. You are doing great with the detaching. Be encouraged.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/04/09 06:50 AM
Thank everyone. I actually did ask him - but lightly and calmly like not a big deal. He calmly told me he took off all his personal info because of the scare of fb applications hacking into personal info. I believe it because a)my H is a computer programmer familiar with security systems and fb is anything but and b) my H is paraonoid!

So, my lesson was just what all of you are saying - fb is stupid and non important, I don't need to be unnecessarily obsessing.

In the past I would have obsessed, instead I calmed myself, got support and let it go. I'm finally detaching some.

I also realized why I was panicked. It wasn't the fb status. It was something it unconsciously symbolized for me. My H have agreed to a legal settlement agreement and I have been fighting to keep it signed but not filed with the court. Basically, my H is insisting his lawyer says filing is the best route and my lawyer couldn't really give me a strong answer as to how to avoid it without more court time and legal fees so I'm just going to agree to the stupid thing. I've been trying to keep my cool - as our agreement is that we will go into MC after it is filed - we start MOnday.

My H has repeatedly insisted that he will feel safer going into MC with the legal sep. so that any issues between us won't blow up into a legal battle. Being paranoid, I actually believe this makes sense to him. I have chosen to do this in the hope that we will go into counselling. I have nothing to lose - he's already out of the house and I am banking on the fact that a lot of his abuse has stemmed from anxiety around the threat of a big D battle. Once the settlement is agreed on, if we eventually have a D, it cannot be contested - we've agreed to the terms if it comes to that. He has written in that he will go to five months of MC at least, and that he will not file for D for one year.

So I've been telling myself that rationally this is the best compromise for the long term hope of working on the M.

But all my emotions erupted over that stupid fb status. It was all the panic, sadness, fear, anger over being left in this position with a five year old son and no job, etc. It all bubbled up.

But I'm calmer now. I have my moments of panic that will surely come and go. But I am working on the detachment and making myself happy and I actually see H responding more positively as well.

My goal is to not fight and the other one is to get into MC, and they are both happening. Baby steps.

He files monday for the legal separation, but I don't have to answer for ninety days. H says I can wait as long as possible if I want... so at least he won't fight me when I do wait!
How are things?

I hope you had a nice weekend.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/07/09 06:32 AM
Having huge panic attacks tonight - starting MC tomorrow and I just don't know how much if any amount my H wants the relationship. Not knowing how to start, how to handle, how to have any hope. Fear that he's just there to dissolve things when I'm hoping to repair. How can we repair in MC if I'm the only one hoping?

Advice?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/07/09 11:42 AM
Hope,

I am about to start MC in a couple of weeks too. Take a deep breath and remind yourself you have no control over your H, whether it's in MC or otherwise. Don't worry about why H agreed to go or not. Just go to MC and do the best you can. Wherever it leads, who knows.

The difficulty at this point is to follow two paths - one of preparing yourself for a life without H and one of remaining open to reconciliation. Tough part is being able to do both at the same time.
The good news is that you are going to MC! There is movement and you're not just sitting still. That's a good thing.

Scary as hell, but a good thing nonetheless. Sorry you're having a hard time with it. I completely understand.
Posted By: luvless Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/07/09 03:25 PM
Ya know hope...I've been thinking. I may be down your road soon and I'm not sure I can try so hard to make things work out with someone who doesn't. Don't you think..even if you turn things around and the marriage starts working. There will be deep rooted resentment for what he has put you through? will you ever trust that he won't pull away again? Do you wanna live in fear? These are just my thoughts but I think when it gets to this point - you really have to think - do you want to try so hard or do you want to be with someone who is trying real hard for you?

just my thoughts...
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/07/09 03:38 PM
Originally Posted By: luvless
Ya know hope...I've been thinking. I may be down your road soon and I'm not sure I can try so hard to make things work out with someone who doesn't. Don't you think..even if you turn things around and the marriage starts working. There will be deep rooted resentment for what he has put you through? will you ever trust that he won't pull away again? Do you wanna live in fear? These are just my thoughts but I think when it gets to this point - you really have to think - do you want to try so hard or do you want to be with someone who is trying real hard for you?

just my thoughts...


And THAT is a VERY important factor. It took me a while finally to understand and accept that try as I might, I could not sustain a R if I was the only one trying - IT TAKES TWO. Without BOTH people working on the R, it cannot succeed.

Which leaves the LBS to consider whether any progress is being made. For me, as long as I believe we are making progress, I will continue to try. But, there may come a point where my W simply does not want to try. At that point, I see no choice left but to go our seperate ways.
Posted By: TrentC Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/07/09 04:30 PM
Originally Posted By: luvless
I may be down your road soon and I'm not sure I can try so hard to make things work out with someone who doesn't.


But that is the essence of divorce busting. Most of us are starting from the position of "my WAS says it's over", when means that they have given up hope of the relationship working out.

Originally Posted By: luvless
Don't you think..even if you turn things around and the marriage starts working. There will be deep rooted resentment for what he has put you through?


Only if you let there be. You can't control your emotions, but you can choose how to respond to them.

Originally Posted By: luvless
will you ever trust that he won't pull away again? Do you wanna live in fear?


That what boundaries and transparency are for -- to rebuild trust.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/07/09 06:56 PM
All great points. YOu guys are good!

-Do my best and remember I can't control H or the outcome. Prepare emotionally for either outcome.
-This is movement and movement is good. Coming out of limboland.
-H must try too.
-Remember DB begins with where I am now - I want to repair, H (claims) he doesn't or doesn't believe we can. I can still DB.
-I can choose how to respond to my resentment. I'm working on forgiveness while still holding him accountable.
-Boundaries are to rebuild trust.

Another abusive argument this morning. I am finally seeing how H tries to bait and attack me. I tried to set a boundary. That's where I'm starting MC today.

I heard S crying "ow" when I woke up so I went in to ocmfort him. H says sarcastically "thanks for nothing."

I felt put down, because I didn't mean to do anything wrong. I asked for clarification "What do you mean?" H stonewalls. I asked him to please not say a comment if he doesn't want to explain - we can talk about it later. H angrily: "We talked about this last night! I thought you would know what I meant!" We had talked about six topics in anticipation of MC, so i was unclear. H storms off, sulks and says he will not talk.

H returns anyhow: "S needs to eat now or will be late for school!." (I know this - I get him ready most days, I feel ordered around, like I'm being talked down to). I reply, "I know, I was just asking him what he wanted for breakfast." H says sarcastically, "I didn't ask you what you said to him!" I'm confused.

I bring S to table for breakfast. H threatens: "Since you seem to be doing everything, I'll just let you do it all and leave." I say calmly, "No, this is your morning - you said you would get him ready. I do not want to discuss discipline in front of S." H continues to raise his voice and threaten "NO! You will do it, I need to go!" So I stand up for myself, "No, our agreement was that you will take him. I will not discuss this now." (boundary)

I go into my room and close door. H follows me in shouting. I continue to say "Stop it, I do not want to talk about this now in front of S." H continues to raise voice. He accuses me of "taking 20 min. holding S when he only has 10 min to get to work."

I had held S for 5 or 10 min. because he said he wanted mommy, as far as I could tell there was still 30 min. to get S to school. I literally plugged my ears until he stopped. It was awful.

It breaks my heart that this in front of S. I don't know what to do to make it better for him.

I notice that H got S ready for school calmly and quietly after that.

If H felt I was interfering with his discipline or schedule, he could have simply said so calmly and respectfully. Like, "S is fine, he is just trying to get your attention. We need to move him along because my time is short. Can you please help me get breakfast for him?" And it would have all gone smoothly.

I am finally seeing the games H plays. The problem is I don't know how to make it better (for me, but especially for my S who is the vicitm here).

I expect if I bring this up in MC today, I will get blamed, stonewalled, and not heard. I feel if we both work on changing abusive communication patterns to healthy ones, we could get our marriage on track. But I don't know how to be heard. Even if we D, this is a critical component. It's also why I fantasized leaving H for a year before he left me.

I'm not perfect either I do some really stupid stuff when I get upset. But it has to stop! And I just don't know how to get through to H when he's so justified that I'm always to blame and he doesn't have to do anything.

Posted By: TrentC Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/07/09 07:23 PM
Quote:
I heard S crying "ow" when I woke up so I went in to ocmfort him. H says sarcastically "thanks for nothing."

I felt put down, because I didn't mean to do anything wrong. I asked for clarification "What do you mean?" H stonewalls. I asked him to please not say a comment if he doesn't want to explain - we can talk about it later. H angrily: "We talked about this last night! I thought you would know what I meant!" We had talked about six topics in anticipation of MC, so i was unclear. H storms off, sulks and says he will not talk.


If it's H's turn to get his son ready, why did you get involved at all? You should be willing to protect and defend your kid, but unless you have a reason to believe something is wrong, let your H handle it in his own way.

The best way to have responded to the initial barb was to smile and say "OK, you have everything under control" and leave.

You've got the pattern identified, now the trick is to not fall into it.

Quote:
I bring S to table for breakfast. H threatens: "Since you seem to be doing everything, I'll just let you do it all and leave." I say calmly, "No, this is your morning - you said you would get him ready. I do not want to discuss discipline in front of S." H continues to raise his voice and threaten "NO! You will do it, I need to go!" So I stand up for myself, "No, our agreement was that you will take him. I will not discuss this now." (boundary)


What is the boundary? What are the consequences if he chooses not to respect it? Because he violated it and nothing appears to have happened.

Quote:
I go into my room and close door. H follows me in shouting. I continue to say "Stop it, I do not want to talk about this now in front of S." H continues to raise voice. He accuses me of "taking 20 min. holding S when he only has 10 min to get to work."


You need to get a lock on your bedroom door; or, get dressed and leave. He should not be able to corner you like that.

Quote:
I had held S for 5 or 10 min. because he said he wanted mommy, as far as I could tell there was still 30 min. to get S to school. I literally plugged my ears until he stopped. It was awful.


So why do you want to save this relationship? He has zero respect for you, is verbally abusive, and is emotionally manipulative. It looks like he walked all over one of your boundaries with no repercussions.

You're right; your son should not see that. But you can't change your H, so the best you can do for the two of you is leave.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/07/09 09:56 PM
THx Trent!~- yes, I should have not gotten involved. The reason I did was I'm fearing physical abuse. It may not be so, but on two occasions, my H has hurt my son (by accident) yet denied that it happened. Last night, he was holding S firm to get jammies on, but when S's laughter turned to tears, H did not notice. This concerned me, and I was glad I was there to intervene. Last week, he picked up S to put him in his room for a time out, but he did it too strongly, by first slamming him down on the couch, and then when S said "owow" when H was grabbing him to put him in his room, H did not stop to see if S was really hurt or was trying to get attention.

My mama bear instinct has kicked in lately where I am watching H like a hawk. Under normal circumstances, I agree, I should have stayed out of it.

The consequence for the boundary was that I would leave the room. I did this. I do have a lock, but when I have locked it in the past, H gets more upset and has not only banged on door, he picks it open anyhow. Often I do leave the house as a boundary, but this morning I was in pajamas and awake for only ten minutes. I was in shock.

I am working on my self esteem and seeing the abuse for what it is. It is very confusing for me as I see many things I do wrong too. But through IC and the help of this forum, I have started becoming more aware of the eomtional abuse. I am still figuring out how to deal with it, if at all. I am also trying to protect S from it - which means I do most of the parenting. I simply step in because I do not want my child yelled at, grabbed to firmly, or unfairly disciplined. However, it's a fine line because I don't want to do things that will escalate the abuse and arguing - for S's sake.

We did start in MC today. I brought this up and H seemed to soften slightly and hear the MC where he usually won't hear me. I hope this can work.
Posted By: TrentC Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/07/09 10:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
The reason I did was I'm fearing physical abuse. It may not be so, but on two occasions, my H has hurt my son (by accident) yet denied that it happened. Last night, he was holding S firm to get jammies on, but when S's laughter turned to tears, H did not notice. This concerned me, and I was glad I was there to intervene. Last week, he picked up S to put him in his room for a time out, but he did it too strongly, by first slamming him down on the couch, and then when S said "owow" when H was grabbing him to put him in his room, H did not stop to see if S was really hurt or was trying to get attention.


If you're worried about abuse, then you need to get out now.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
My mama bear instinct has kicked in lately where I am watching H like a hawk. Under normal circumstances, I agree, I should have stayed out of it.


Your mama bear instinct isn't up to speed yet, if you think you're going to catch your H abusing your son.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
The consequence for the boundary was that I would leave the room. I did this.


So in other words, there was no real consequence, because he did exactly what I would expect he'd do; follow you. A real consequence would be:

"If you cannot speak to me in a decent, repsectful tone of voice, I will take our son and find someplace else to stay while I file for divorce."

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I do have a lock, but when I have locked it in the past, H gets more upset and has not only banged on door, he picks it open anyhow.


So your husband has so little respect for you that he won't give you the courtesy of temporary privacy?

Enough is enough. You need to leave.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I am working on my self esteem and seeing the abuse for what it is. It is very confusing for me as I see many things I do wrong too. But through IC and the help of this forum, I have started becoming more aware of the eomtional abuse. I am still figuring out how to deal with it, if at all.


Step one: LEAVE. It's a lot harder for him to be abusive towards you or your son if neither of you are there.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
We did start in MC today. I brought this up and H seemed to soften slightly and hear the MC where he usually won't hear me. I hope this can work.


Abusers are very good at hiding their true feelings and attitudes from others. He'll put up a good front for the MC then go back to his old tricks.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/08/09 06:04 AM
I cannot legally take my son away from H on "his" nights as far as I know. I'm trying not to let this teeter on D, and I have talked to a cop already about filing a restraining order -= but that is it - that will be the D, and it will be ugly - and what will that do to my S?

I just started MC today and I brought it up - you bet I did. I want to try to educate him on positive discipline methods. This physical stuff has only surfaced after our separation - it never happened when we lived together and weren't having problems - although there was always verbal abuse toward me, and ultimately I was guilty of being verbally abusive to him too when I let him upset me so much. That was horrible when my S overheard it. I feel guilty for not protecting my S more.

But him taking out his frustrations directly on my S is freaking me out to no end. He just considers it discipline. It would be a hard thing to prove in court. It's not so obvious or bad like bruises or something. It's just enough that I worry about my S's feelings.

I'm afraid that if I up the ante toward a D, the abuse will increase, AND I will not be there to see what happens to my S during visitation. This is why I am willing to put up with this s**t to keep him here until my S is older - so that I can monitor and protect my son. right now, I'd say I do almost all the parenting, even when H is around.

In our state, the courts support 50/50 custody, unless there are serious injuries that can be proven. H will lie and say I am the one who is abusive, then we have he said/she said and I may not get any more custody.

Sounds sick, I know. It tears me up inside because for years I have wanted to just take my son somewhere away from his father and raise him myself. But this is his father. I cannot up and leave and never have my S see his father again. So I'm struggling to diffuse the abuse by keeping a close watch and getting H into therapy. I know it's not ideal, may even be more harmful. I"m tormented by this. It's all taken such a horrifying turn.

As for me it's a different issue. I need to distance myself as much as possible because he has hurt me for so long and sees none of it. He's the victim. He works constantly and just tunes me out. I have NC these days except when I need to watch S. Even then, I'm cool and distant.

It's a good point that abusers hide their true colors in MC and go back to the same thing. It has happened before.
Posted By: TrentC Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/08/09 06:12 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
But him taking out his frustrations directly on my S is freaking me out to no end. I'm afraid that if I up the ante toward a D, the abuse will increase, AND I will not be there to see what happens to my S during visitation. This is why I am willing to put up with anything to keep him here until my S is older - so that I can monitor and protect my son.


No, the real solution is that you get out and get your husband out of your life as best you can. I don't see how you are doing your son any favors, letting a man that you admit is hurting your son to get to you have access to him.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
Sounds sick, I know. But I cannot up and leave and never have my S see his father again.


Want to bet? It happens all the time.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
So I'm struggling to diffuse the abuse by keeping a close watch and getting H into therapy.


That won't work. You can't fix your husband, and he'll resent your trying.

Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
As for me it's a different issue. I need to distance myself as much as possible because he has hurt me for so long and sees none of it. He's the victim.


Um, how do you figure that?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/08/09 07:44 AM
What I mean is, he THINKS he is the victim. Classic abuser mentality.

Trent you are giving me some very strong words to digest - I am going to have to really think this through.

The only way I know to keep H from S is to file a restraining order and fight for custody in court. Like I said previously, I don't know what my odds are in my state.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/09/09 05:45 PM
Well I'm trying to stay strong and look at the bright side in a cautiously optimistic way. Ever since the MC app. on Monday, H has been so much more calm and decent. Not abusive anyhow and more open. For what it's worth. I'm still cautious.

Tuesday morning went much better - we communicated well and got out the door without him yelling, blaming, making sarcastic remarks, and without me getting emotional. It felt - normal?

Yesterday was H's night off - my night with S. H called after work to "print something" and ended up staying until S's bedtime. Now, I would say that DR would call this a baby step to acknowledge - the calling out of the blue, the staying longer, the openess to talk, etc.

However happy I am about this, I am also guarded. I don't want him to take advantage of me and think he can just swoop by anytime he feels like it. It's my eternal dilemma- am I being "too nice" just to "get him to love me" when I should be setting boundaries, or am I being receptive to movement toward me? Time will tell, I guess.

H also invited me to a Hannukah party at his mom's - better than a few months ago when his mom invited us somewhere and H said "I don't know if you are invited". He has been more chatty and even asked me what I wanted for Christmas!

Well, I made a light joke - I said I don't need any "stuff" = I'd rather have something from the heart - even if it's a snake full of poisonous venom. We laughed.

These all seem positive a la DR and DB, but I'm still watching him like a hawk for the abuse. Staying guarded.
Posted By: TrentC Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/09/09 05:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
but I'm still watching him like a hawk for the abuse. Staying guarded.


Personally, I think this stance is foolish. You're taking chances with your well-being, and that of your kid.

Abusers don't stop abusing after one session with an MC; if anything, they're good at covering up and playing nice so others don't suspect.
Posted By: soleil Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/09/09 06:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv

However happy I am about this, I am also guarded. I don't want him to take advantage of me and think he can just swoop by anytime he feels like it. It's my eternal dilemma- am I being "too nice" just to "get him to love me" when I should be setting boundaries, or am I being receptive to movement toward me? Time will tell, I guess.

I'm still watching him like a hawk for the abuse. Staying guarded.


Ah, walking on eggshells. That is not a fun place to be at all. I wish I had better advice for you but I've been there and see my H acting nice to me at times now but I am constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's like I know it can only last for so long...
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/09/09 06:42 PM
Yes, folks, I know you are right and I appreciate your continued reminders although I am stubbornly trying MC as a last resort.

Spoke with the MC counselor this morning and was pleased to be validated in that the MC saw the hostility, blame, criticism coming from H. He wants to work with H and he is also wanting to work with me not getting triggered and walking away from verbal abuse.

Until then, I will continue to be as protective of myself and my child as possible. I am documenting all abuse so that when/if it oomes to D, I have a record that will protect S to give me more custody. Meanwhile, I am doing better at NC until I have to see H around visits with S.
Posted By: soleil Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/09/09 09:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I am stubbornly trying MC as a last resort.


Hey, do what yu have to do. I don't think it's a bad idea at all.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/09/09 09:20 PM
soleil - I'm not up on your sitch. Have you tried MC?
Hope - I'm glad you're doing something...anything other than just sitting in limbo.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/10/09 03:47 AM
H trying to bait me for what I can tell. Shows up an hour and a half late, S is waiting, then says to me."Are you going out" and I said I would have told him if I was and that I didn't like the implication that he's trying to get rid of me. He says,'it is always easier for me when you aren't here." I feel furious, trying to not catch the bait.

I say, "You can put S to bed and leave if you like." He says "just wondering if you are going out to bars or smoking cigarettes or something" which is inappropriate in front of a five year old.

Then he has the nerve to say "I"m waiting for the day when you stop bringing these things up in front of S."

I'm not supposed to take the bait - he's trying to get me upset and he's trying to make me so uncomfortable I leave.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/10/09 03:55 AM
Hope,

You did well not taking the bait. That's exactly what he wants.

But, the comment in front of your S about bar hopping and smoking is way out of line. You need to address that with him - not to be mentioned in front of S b/c in the end, it only hurts S.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/10/09 08:50 PM
Thanks GIMA, I did mention it to him. I have no idea if he will control his mouth in the future, but I did make it short, sweet and simple and he heard me. I also told him to call if he was going to be late = as he was 1 1/2 hrs late.

He seemed to calm down when I "listened and validated" his need for space after that -= he said he is "really busy and stressed"???? and wanted time in the house alone if I don't want him to take S to his apartment for the night. In a good faith effort, I went to my neighbor's and watched tv for a few hours.

I feel like well he moved out why is he complaining he has no time for himself. But I did a 180 on my usual fighting stance - I would have normally just said that to him and said I'm not leaving my house. I am hoping the listening and validating tactic works - seems to be in that he is TALKING more and YELLING less (something the MC advised me on). However, I'm scared I'm just letting him have his way with getting nothing in return. Oh well, that is part of DB isn't it? Trying to meet their needs so they feel safe and supported without expecting anything back? In that way, I was successful.

However it still feels like crap because I'm afraid I'm just letting him push me around - at least I'm insisting he be doing it more calmly smile. Anyone who has followed my sitch knows the kind of verbal abuse he's doled out for so long. At least I'm dealing iwth getting that under control.

As for him coming back eventually? As for a Busted Divorce? Still seems like a huge huge road. Trying to focus on the small changes and successes.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/10/09 08:57 PM
Keep yourself focused on the now.

And pick your battles on the things which are worth fighting over. On the ones that are truly non-negotiable, make those boundaries. Otherwise, giving a little is not a bad thing. Just don't become the only one giving or become a doormat.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/11/09 02:58 AM
That's where I'm confused - when am I being a doormat vs. when am I picking my battles?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/11/09 03:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
That's where I'm confused - when am I being a doormat vs. when am I picking my battles?


This is a tough question to answer. But I'll try.

It has to do with how you view yourself.

How do you feel after doing or not doing a particular thing? Pick an issue and the way you handle it - does the way you handled it make you feel strong or weak?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/11/09 03:49 AM
Well last night, I felt mixed. One the one hand, it was good because I didn't want to stay in the house knowing H didn't want me there - that makes me feel tense, like I'm getting psychic barbs. But I also felt weak because I was kind of letting him chase me out of my own home. I felt scared that if I didn't leave, he would continue his anger and blame and I didn't like that I was intimidated.

So, for the moment, it felt good because I protected myself from H's abuse and anger. Overall, however, I wish he would give more. I guess the strength came in facing the reality that H wouldn't compromise so I took care of myself and my own feelings.

Maybe it's like we don't want the WAS to cut us out of their lives, but in facing it and taking care of ourselves anyhow, we have personal power. It's not the power in "getting our way" - getting WAS to be with us because WE want them to - but it's the power in "letting go" and taking care of our selves and making good choices without expecting to control the external situation and outcome. That's DB, right?

It was kind of a GAL move - like "Ok, you don't want me around - I'm fine anyhow". And heck, I had fun at my neighbor's = we watched a good show and had some laughs. It was nice to feel welcomed and wanted.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/11/09 04:07 AM
This is good:

Quote:
Maybe it's like we don't want the WAS to cut us out of their lives, but in facing it and taking care of ourselves anyhow, we have personal power. It's not the power in "getting our way" - getting WAS to be with us because WE want them to - but it's the power in "letting go" and taking care of our selves and making good choices without expecting to control the external situation and outcome. That's DB, right?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 12:56 AM
I get panic attacks before my H comes over - anyone else ever feel that way? The other night, I literally threw up when he was here. I get nausea in my stomach when he's coming over or when he's here.

Any advice?

I don't know what it's from - from all the abuse over the past eight months, over the stress and ackwardness of "DB"ing correctly, fear of his anger, fear of him leaving, or just the pain of separation and detachment? Trying to fake being strong in the face of this pain.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 01:21 AM
Quote:
I don't know what it's from - from all the abuse over the past eight months, over the stress and ackwardness of "DB"ing correctly, fear of his anger, fear of him leaving, or just the pain of separation and detachment? Trying to fake being strong in the face of this pain.


All of that you have just mentioned. Stress can do strange things to us and our mind & body can endure just so much.

I don't know how you feel about taking medication for this, but I think you need to see a doctor who will give you something to help with the attacks. People can have heart attacks if enough of that stuff happens long enough.

I had heard of panic attacks before, but had never experience it until I had my WAW issues. Then.....not too long ago, I had some type of "melt-down" when my physical pain was so bad, but it was the emotions I was feeling that I didn't understand. When I explained it to another person, they said it sounded like a panic attack. It was awful and my heart sure goes out to anyone who has them. I don't know how you would handle very many.

Just wanted you to know somebody cared, sweetheart. Please take care of yourself.

Sandi
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 03:45 AM
THanks,Sandi! The support means more than you know. I survived. Somehow tonight went ok. No fights.

I have been thinking about seeing a dr. about panic attacks. I've never in my life had them like this. I must say it's bizarre. I had a melt down last month too - and ever since, I"ve just been feeling panic attacks - usually around H showing up, occasionally just thinking and worrying about the whole sitch.

Shakey, headaches, nausea, vomitting, and it's so weird. It must be emotional, but it feels like it's out of control - like some bug is making me freak out. So, as much as I hate meds, it may be all I can do at this point.

Sandi, I'm not familiar with your sitch. What instigated your panic attacks? What helped them go away?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 08:01 AM
I've found this great transcript of a radio show - this couple has been through hell and back and they are good at detailing many of their tips for success - guess what - they are so similar to DB!

Hope you like it...
http://www.globaltalkradio.com/shows/lovesafetynet/transcript11.php
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 01:45 PM
Quote:
I have been thinking about seeing a dr. about panic attacks. I've never in my life had them like this. I must say it's bizarre. I had a melt down last month too - and ever since, I"ve just been feeling panic attacks - usually around H showing up, occasionally just thinking and worrying about the whole sitch.

Shakey, headaches, nausea, vomitting, and it's so weird. It must be emotional, but it feels like it's out of control - like some bug is making me freak out. So, as much as I hate meds, it may be all I can do at this point.


Hope, please see someone about this. There is NO shame in getting help for a VERY difficult situation. You need to be at your best to attack this challenge.
Posted By: Day by Day Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 03:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I've found this great transcript of a radio show - this couple has been through hell and back and they are good at detailing many of their tips for success - guess what - they are so similar to DB!

Hope you like it...
http://www.globaltalkradio.com/shows/lovesafetynet/transcript11.php


Hope, thanks for sharing this! This was very insightful about dealing with a narcassist. I got a lot out of this transcript. It is similar to DBing, but I guess hearing it presented another way and from a couple helped me understand even more. It is all about not being needy and putting up boundaries.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 06:27 PM
Speaking of not being needy =- man do I miss H this morning. Could be the cold weather, with nobody to cuddle up with. How crazy am I that I'm traumatized one day by his presence, then the next day I miss him? Please support me to not call him and say I miss him. I must be losing my mind!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 06:32 PM
GIMA, thank you. I will.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 06:33 PM
Hope,

GET BUSY. What can you do around the house or town? Clean the house, vacuum, go exercise. Anything. Just occupy yourself.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 06:45 PM
I was an almost WAW who was in an EA. I had had years of a bad MR (no abuse, but no intimacy or conversation, etc.). We had had so much family problems down through the years and then I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia.

The years I spent trying to get help with different doctors would take too long to tell. The Fibro is very painful but and stems from over stressed nerve...something or another (too complicated to explain). Anyway, I had been on a lot of different AD's b/c of depression. My job stress was killing me! At one time, the doctors had me so over-dosed that I couldn't get out of bed! Then, they took me off of everything at one time instead of tapering it off. That is when I almost went bonkers. But, I refuse to use that for my "crutch" for having an EA. It would take too many pages to relate everything about why, how, etc. But, to make a long shorter, I never walked away and I stopped contact with OM and my H and I are together. That is the good news.

It was still some time before I found a doctor who would treat me for hormone replacement thereapy. That was another "gift" from mother nature that I forgot to add.....menopause! When I was a girl, I would hear stories from my grandmother about how "crazy" some women got when the change of life hit. Now, I know!

So, anyway, I finally got on AD's that actually worked for me and with the help of the hormones, I was doing a lot better. Still have the pain, fatigue, etc. But I think it was from my work related stress and feeling that nobody there appreciates me or even tries to be compassionate (or even believe me) regarding my illness. Some people can make you feel pretty low ....like you are experiencing with H.

I was very surprised when I had my melt-down at the doctor's office. I was in so much physical pain that was working on my nervous system.....and was waiting in the room for him to see me. It seemed as if the air was just sucked out of the room and I couldn't breathe. I left out heading for the outside. The nurse looked at me funny and I told her I had to get outside for air. Then the doctor came out to find me and I was embarrassed b/c people were coming by staring. By the time he got me back inside, I felt almost disoreinted. Then my emotions overtook me and I started crying. It was all "nerves". Had nothing to do with my M, but the fact that I feel so stressed out at work. You know how it is when a bunch of women work in a close space!

When I was in my WAW mode, the type of attacks I had then was more of a wanting to "flight" thing. I would get up out of a class or wherever I was....and leave!

So, I don't know if there is a one size answer to it, but I do believe it has to do with our nervous system and something that is out of our control.......and that is why it feels so scary! We feel everyting is out of our control. We don't understand what is happening at that precise moment and why our bodies seem to have a mind of its own.

There are meds designed for panic attacks and I think you you really need to get that. I heard of one lady who would have them ever so often at her job, and would just have to leave until it passed. I don't think it is something that will stay with you forever, but is a result of your body reacting to stress.

Sorry if I have repeated anything I had already told you. I feel for you, even if our stories may vary......I know what you experience is very scary. You can't opperate under that situation, so please go to your doctor about it, okay?

Let me know.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 11:15 PM
GIMA, thank you. The main thing that helps is gettin gout of the house. I am an at home mom and when S is in school, I tend to get depressed, obsessed, mulling about, even when I have home projects.

Today, when I was missing H, I just got me and S out of the house and visiting my aunt who I love dearly. We are having a lovely time. It helps distract from the pain.

I'm also trying to mentally stay strong like I was a couple weeks ago = instead of missing him (eweak). I am reminding myself (Can't believe I have to remind myself) of his abusive nature and that I"m probably better off without him.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 11:26 PM
Sandi = thank you! I"m so sorry you went through all that. How frightening. My situation doesn't nearly seem so bad! For me it's emotional stress, but you're right, I need to get over my shame in asking for help. I'm also very sensitive to medication, and I"m nervous abou getting that "drugged up" feeling. (On my wedding day, I took one atavan, and I don't remember a thing - after my cesarian with my S, I took no pain pills besides really strong advil -).
Posted By: sandi2 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/12/09 11:38 PM
You may be thinking of seditives, which do make some people feel drugged out. AD's are not suppose to make you feel that way. They are suppose to make you feel "normal", if you are taking the right kind, dosage, etc. Tell your doctor that your body is sensitive to mediation. Also....some people's body's respond in almost the opposite way to whatever it is the meds are suppose to do. In other words, my mother may try to take some OTC pm meds but it keeps her awake instead of helping her sleep. If you go to a new doctor, just be sure to discuss any concerns you have.

I'll always remember what a doctor told me one time......."Everybody needs help with something--sometime in there life. There is no shame in taking medication to get better, but it's a shame if we do not try to do anything about it". I will never forget that. He also went on to tell me, "Sandi, there is no disgrace in a Christian taking AD's". I appreciated him telling me that, b/c my church had went through this phase of teaching, "Smile, God love you" and if you believe then you shouldn't have any problems. Guess we all were raised with some things to overcome in our thinking. wink

Do you have a close friend who you can talk to? I don't know that it helps with panic attacks, but I feel that everyone needs somebody to talk to about personal things. I guess I would burst if I couldn't talk to somebody!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/13/09 01:06 AM
Thank you = what are "AD"'s? I am interested to know so that I can speak with my dr. next week. Thank you so much =- this is all new to me and I do need help.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/14/09 07:02 AM
Want to note the positive "baby steps" so I don't lose sight of them.

Went to MIL's for Hannukah with H and S. Mix up early on about the time we were supposed to leave. Would have usually been a fight, me feeling blown off by H when he was late, H feeling whatever - controlling? manipulated? whatever his negative reactions are. Instead, I stayed cool and non blaming and when I realized he and his mom had not clarified the time, I stayed out of it and remained flexible and non blaming. H got going as fast as he could and even apologized for the mix up!

I stayed upbeat and bubbly in the 45 min. car ride over - we had positive, fun, friendly talks. H even touched my knee at one point. I blew it and touched him on his back at another point - oh well. Big difference from the fights over the last holiday, Thanksgiving.

Had a good visit with MIL. On the way home, H got upset when I said I didn't know where some insurance papers were, but he verbalized that this worries him and causes him extra stress, instead of attacking. I said I understood, apologized, and remained reassuring instead of reactive like I normally would. I would normally feel attacked - he gets abusive when anxious. I didn't take the bait, just said I'd find it - and I did promptly as soon as we got home.

H started with "never mind" and shutting down when he was talking about what to do about a gas leak in "his" apt, and I gave some answers that were annoying to him. Obviously anything to do with his apt. is anxiety producing for me, and when he shuts down is my big button. But I just stopped talking, thought about it, gave him my answer and dropped it. No fight.

When we got home, H offered to read S stories then said he had to go. I said fine. H also offered to fix tv which had stopped working last night. He started getting aggressive and verbally abusive around - I couldn't tell what. He wanted me to do something about the tv? Not distract S when listening to stories? Usually, I would feel that he is demanding something of me and that I need to do something to fix it but I don't understand what he wants or why he's mad. I put my hands up as if to say "stop", and he got mad about that gesture....I just walked away.

I imagined an imaginary boundary - literally an imaginary wall between us. I proceeded to get on with my night behind the "wall" and ignore the tantrum going on on the other side of the "wall." This is counterintuitive, but it worked. when S was done with stories, I just continued to get him ready for bed and closed the bedroom door. H apologized again - twice in one day??? - for "being fiesty" because he was stressed out that it was late and he still had things to do. I just said I understood and he should go take care of his stuff and said a pleasant good bye.

We are meeting for the second MC tomorrow and I am scared of what to bring up. Don't want to push for "better behavior" or "what will it take to reconcile" but I don't want to let H steer the discussion either as he might go off on abusive tangents.

Anyhow, I think today was full of positive baby steps. Even thought I dream of him begging to return home, I need to remember that these baby steps will hopefully lead somewhere. And if they only lead to D, I have done the best I can.

Posted By: sandi2 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/14/09 12:04 PM
AD's anti-depressant medication. But, if I understand it, depending on what kind of depression one is having...helps the doctor to know which kind of medication to put you on. So, that is why you need to explain the panick feelings.

I need to catch up on your thread, but I would think your H and the M problems cause depression by itself. Feeling that he is going to go off on you in a fit of anger, or just being upset with you, may bring on panick attacks.

If you can reach the place that you show him his being upset or frustrated at you for losing papers (or whatever the next thing might be) does not affect you.....I think he'll learn that action doesn't work any more.

Him discussing anything that has to do with his appartment is disrespectfult to you and I think if it were me, I would tell him that I would not discuss those subjects that were disrespectufl to me or our family or M. If you aren't confined to a car the next time....you can say that and then walk away from him.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/14/09 06:50 PM
Sandi - I like your thinking re: not discussing his apt. For the seven months he's been gone, we've spoken very little about it, and he comes here to be with S5, but he is starting to push for more openness about it and wants to start taking S to his place. I'm against all of it. We just started MC last week - finally - and I want to work on how/if we can reconsile, not how to make this separation easier on him - which is of course what he wants to talk about in therapy - more openness about facing the separation.

ugh.

Yes, I am on an Ad, and it helps with general social anxiety. I'm going to make a DR. app. this week and talk about if this is right for me as it doesn't help at all with the panic attack.

And if you read any of my thread you will see that H's verbal abuse has been my main issue since H left - before that it was both of us, lots of issues, but the main one has become me being totally on edge when he is to be around b/c I fear being attacked and blown up at - which is usually the case. Lately, I feel H has started to also blow up at S in the guise of "discipline" so H does not want to face that. He thinks he's just parenting but I feel he does it in a way that is that is too intense and is venting his personal frustrations.

I don' tknow how to get H to see any of this. He does not admit it and of course in his mind, when I get upset at his attacks, or react, I am the one that is crazy or getting too irrational or angry - I'm to blame in his mind. So YOU ARE RIGHT = I'm working on not letting it upset me - a huge task, but yesterday I did it fairly well.

I've been working with an IC for the entire time since H left on how to stand up to him with little success. The main one is to walk away immediately.

So the panic attacks are definitely associated with that.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/14/09 09:57 PM
Went to second MC. H says he doesn't trust me when I say I'll change. Typical, right? He pulls out that I said a really hurtful joke last week and showed no sign of backpedelling or remorse. I told him I was up half the night feeling awful about it. H says he doesn't believe me b/c I didn't show it. I said I could show him my journal entries - he said he "doesn't care." UGH> So I make all these changes, and this one thing "proves" I'm not caring about changing? Yes, they are watching. (With a vengance!)

Also told me his friend saw my profile on a dating website. I did try to move on with my life this summer when H was not interested in MC, had moved out, refused to talk to me. At that point he wasn't talking D, so I shouldn't have given up. This was pre-DB. So I told him exactly that. The MC is my IC too and he confirmed that I told him about this over the summer - it was only for a couple of weeks. I also said that I took it for granted that my H hadn't completely given up and I should have respected that more and not tried to date. Again, H said he is confused at best and doesn't believe me basically. However, at the end of the session, he admitted he has seen some changes (and he just doesn't know if it's enough). He also admitted that when he says global statements like "it shows you don't care and aren't changing" it is hurtful to me and that it's part of his pessimism. WOW>

Rebuilding trust may take a lifetime. At least we are talking now! He never told me this - but it makes sense that it was the time my H started talking D.

He also saw my divorcebusting following on twitter. Somehow this is a bad thing??? Anyhow, all removed.

How to show H that changes will stick....advice people?

And, I brought up that he has also said insensitive "jokes" he has not apologized for. Jabs. I told him we were both guilty of it. Then I listened and validated and said I understand how he would feel I just didn't care at all if I didn't apologize at the time for my hurtful joke.

UGH>
Quick question.

What was he doing on a dating web site so come across your listing?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/14/09 10:12 PM
Quote:
How to show H that changes will stick....advice people?


TIME + consistent action on your part.

Words are cheap.

In the end, though, this is your H's decision to make, and, thus, something over which you have no control.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/15/09 07:01 AM
Originally Posted By: Energizer Bunny
Quick question.

What was he doing on a dating web site so come across your listing?


No he said "a friend" saw my profile. Still, mortifying, definitely didn't help my case as a trustworthy person.
Oh well, nothing came of that site and it was actually a horrible experience! I didn't try it for long - too weird. It was actually after that experience this summer that I decided to fight for my marriage. I wasn't sure either up until then. When H left, I thought, well heck I haven't been happy either maybe there's something/someone better out there. It was basically a defense mechanism over feeling hurt and dumped. I realized it was a fantasy and so I got serious about my changes and my marriage.

That is when I stopped doing theatre, signed up for support groups, started DBing. Sadly, that is when H started talking D. My life sucks. My timing sucks.

Maybe H got off the fence when he heard about it. All along I had been begging him to come back - but I did the dating thing as a back up because I was feeling so lonely and dumped. Still, if I had wanted him back, I should have showed my fidelity. I think he felt like a shmuck and like I was lying to him about wanting reconsiliation so he took matters in his own hands and threatened D. Now he is filing legal sep., but we are starting MC. It's been a crappy eight months!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/15/09 08:34 PM
Trying not to get my hopes up but just got an out of the blue call from H - never happens. Says he's going by costco/target and asked if I needed anything. WOW. Now on the one side, it's holiday time and he asked about presents for S. But he also offered to get anything for the house if I needed it.

That is huge.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/15/09 08:36 PM
Trying not to get my hopes up but just got an out of the blue call from H - never happens. Says he's going by costco/target and asked if I needed anything. WOW. Now on the one side, it's holiday time and he asked about presents for S. But he also offered to get anything for the house if I needed it.

That is huge.

Of course the bummer at the end - oh, and did i ever send you the court documents?

grrrr
Posted By: sandi2 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/15/09 11:41 PM
I don't think I do very well trying to offer suggestions to women who have a H like yours. Maybe it's my personality, IDK, but I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I was never subject to anything like that so I don't really know how to understand it. When I try to give advice, it just comes out sounding mean & cold hearted..... frown

My sister was M to a man who was a bully and I would get so angry at her b/c she allowed him to treat her the way she did. She would leave and then go back....back & forth and I just didn't understand why she wanted to go back to him.

Just please be careful and take care of yourself b/c I don't think anyone should have to "settle" for this kind of treatment. There are some good men out there, and you deserve better.



Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/16/09 02:30 AM
Sandi, thanks. I understand that many people can't relate and it is hard for them to hear because it is so painful. I would feel that way too if I were on the outside looking in.

I'm trying to learn how to stand up to him as I have just only recently - since being on this board actually - realized I was verbally abused.

My main issue is my child.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/17/09 08:54 AM
Another good day of babysteps. I asked H to call to discuss Sep. papers and although he did not call me back that night - which irks me - I stayed cool and let it go. H called me the next day and we talked successfully - no fights, I did not show any emotion, no begging or crying. It used to be everytime we talked re: separation, I would do the no-no - cry, plead, etc.

so I stayed cool like no biggie. this is big improvement for me. We talked about some other stuff too.

When H came home it was way better than it had been, although it wasn't fabulous or anything. But the abusiveness has mellowed again. He began tossing orders at me when I walked in the door, which I hate, but they weren't as anger filled as usual, so I let them slide. We had an ok dinner - H still is insisting on disciplining S through dinner but he stopped just short of being too harsh, as he often is. It just felt like he was trying to hold back his anger, and that means a lot.

H was still snappy at me a few times- he doesn't realize how he raises his voice and has this whiny, irritated tone. It's really horrible.

Now that he's not actively verbally abusive, and I'm starting to have hope that we are working on things due to the therapy and his more recent openness and attempts to control his temper, I can see the problems that drove me away in the first place coming out. He's still difficult to live with. It's still painful, even when he's at baseline. Like he starts shouting "Get the cat! Get the cat off me!" in this voice that sounds like panic and a demand - so I rush over and grab the cat, then he gets annoyed at me that the cat was clinging to his pants and pulled (a tiny) thread. He shouts at me, "He tore at my only pair of pants! Calm down!" Seriously? Me calm down? He was the one freaking out and shouting orders and I am supposed to calm down?

Well it's uncomfortable (but not torture) and I am now conscious of what I put up with for so many years that led me to start spending every evening and weekend out doing theatre. I just feel like I can never do anything right.

It's still a marked improvement from his months of extremely angry behavior.

I went out to GAL after S went to bed - watched a movie with GF. When I returned it just kills me that he gives me the silent treatment. Not even a hello or good night. Ugh. I keep praying for a better day. However, even before we were separated, he was so cold. Never a hug or kiss hello or good bye. So, is that so far off from how he used to be? Or is it still his way of communicating rejection and anger?
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/18/09 07:01 AM
ok, I'll just keep journalling...

So my new attitude of strength seems to be working. Working hard in therapy on not taking any verbal abuse and it goes along with DB in terms of GAL, 180s, focussing on self, detaching, dropping the rope, etc.

I told H point blank that I'm thinking of taking S to the snow. This has been a "family" winter tradition and instead of asking H to come I did my 180 and did not mention him at all. He says "Hey, I should be able to come" and starts throwing out ideas for dates and hotels. I couldn't believe it. If I had asked him to come he would have said no. Since he wasn't invited, he wanted in! If he changes his mind, I'm still going - working hard on regaining my power.

It's up in the air, and I still said we'd sleep in separate rooms because inside I'm getting stronger. I'm no longer the "LBS" who will do anything to get WAS back. I'm getting clearer each day that he has a lot of work to do before I accept him back. Everyday he calms down is a step -= and today he was calmer than yesterday.

S5 had a holiday singing concert at his preschool and we all got along great. I do not want to get my hopes up but things are starting to turn more stable around here.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/18/09 01:02 PM
Hope,

Even though I haven't posted to your thread a lot lately, I'm watching, and I'm sure others are too.

Everything looks good. Just don't get your hopes up. Remember NO EXPECTATIONS - and that is hard not to allow to happen. I know.

One other suggestion about this:

Quote:
I told H point blank that I'm thinking of taking S to the snow.


Next time, don't tell him you are "thinking" about taking S, tell him you "are" taking S. If he decides to join, then great. If not, go anyway.

Hang in there.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/18/09 07:14 PM
Thx GIMA, will do. I thought the same thing afterward, so I booked the room - for me and S. The rest is up to H.

Had a nice morning with H and S since S is now out of school.

When H started shouting orders and demands, I handled it will calm and cool. I said I get it, end of discussion.
Posted By: Lll54 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/18/09 08:57 PM
Sounds like you are doing much better. Once you recognize the difference in how you handle things you know that even if H isn't making the necessary changes, you are. And that's what matters right now. If H recognizes them too, it may give him that boost in the butt to follow in your footsteps. You're doing great!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/19/09 05:16 AM
Thanks, Britt, good to see you over here. H has been responding to my new strength in combo with the MC> I'm really hopeful - although as GIMA says, don't get overly so!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/20/09 09:19 AM
Well, more positive signs. Early evening was challenging as we talked out some parenting disagreements (but we did so trying to really hear each other instead of arguing and shutting down!).

Afterwards, I went out for a GAL - a good play some friends of mine are in. When I returned, H was here. Usually he ignores me, sucked into his computer, but we started chatting and opening up and relaxing - we actually started talking like old times. I don't remember feeling that comfortable with him since the bomb. No big things, we were just joshing back and forth, in a connected way, and it was great to feel him FINALLY dropping the defensive, angry, know-it-all front he's been putting up.

H softened, cracked, and I saw a peek of the more vulnerable H that I haven't seen in many long months. I feel really good.
Posted By: patpat Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/20/09 10:21 AM
H4L

Just read your stich... wanted to say "hi" and tell you that I think you are strong and doing the right thing.

I myself am a wishy washy type. Never been that way before but lately, being lost in my mess, it seems to be the order of the day.

I will Pray for you as I do all. I hope things go super great for you from here on out.

You give me hope as I read. I have popped in a few times but never know what to say to folks.

I will keep watching. God Bless!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/21/09 02:15 AM
PatPat! Thank you!

Yes, cross our fingers and thank God things are showing signs of turning around. I'll check in on your sitch later.

Another good day with H - the BEST yet.

The open, softer H was back - ALL DAY. This is unheard of, people. I have not experienced this since pre-bomb eight months ago. We even had a family hug with S. We all made Christmas crafts - gingerbread houses and ornaments and H was fully participating. Lots of chatting, talking, laughing - nothing heavy.

The miracle is that the verbal abuse is lessoning - perhaps because of the holidays, perhaps because H has a few days off, perhaps because our finances are settled, perhaps because we started MC, perhaps because I've been stronger and standing up to him, perhaps a little of all these things.

And the few times he was the least bit snappy -= and they were very few and light - he apologized immediately.

It really is like the old days. Well, except he doesn't live here smile But he is here half the time and we are talking again - both about parenting issues, and in just a real fun way we used to when we were married and things were good.

God help us in MC we'll be able to carry these good communications into the harder stuff of our marrraige - we did last week bring up that we want to learn how to have a stronger and more healthy marriage-= that perhaps we never really had it to begin with. Like so many of you have said - the old R is dead and we are here to build a new one (or be done). So the rebuilding stage begins....

Thank you all for your love and support and prayers.
Posted By: Lll54 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/22/09 01:20 AM
Wow. You are right. Who wants to continue their old marriage?? Nobody. I am very happy for you and the fact that H is slowly coming around. I wouldn't call it rebuilding I would call it building. As you are building a new marriage. A happy, secure, marriage. Your patience amazes me. Keep on the right track and you will succeed!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/22/09 07:04 AM
Britt - thank you. It's worth it if you want a better stronger marriage than before. I think it is worth it.

More amazingness in MC today - suffice it to say, H not only to admitted to something he was doing, it was something he always accuses me of doing! (A famous verbal abuse trick - projection). He said, "Wow, I'm doing exactly what I accused W of" and we actually all laughed in MC.

GIMA, I"m trying not to get my expectations up. But this feels as close to a Xmas miracle as I'm going to get!
Posted By: patpat Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/22/09 07:43 AM
H4L

Glad to here everything is improving so well for you,

I hope many here will follow with the same success.

And myself as well.

Keep up the good work!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/22/09 11:45 PM
Is this what people mean when they say piecing is the hardest part? Because now that there isn't as much focus on the "chase", now I'm faced with all the things in him that made me unhappy in the first place. He still has all the negative tendencies, but fortunately there is more good stuff in between. So, as much as I want my marriage to work there is still some verbal abuse - although it has been calming way down - and in MC yesterday he made it very clear that he not only "forgets" most of those episodes, he doesn't even see them as a problem. This piecing is going to take work!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/23/09 07:01 PM
Well H admitted he has "generalized anxiety disorder" and I looked it up and wouldn't you know "irritability,impatience, suspicion" and more that does fit with what I exper tience as verbal abuse. H always said that when I experience him as angry, he experiences himself as anxious.

Well that's that. A diagnosis. Still, I see him working on his behavior since MC at least apologizing and communicating. This is the biggest step. We haven't had this in months. I asked for xmas that he spend an evening just with me - walking around the city looking at lights - I know, pursuing. But I asked, and he said yes. We'll see if he follows through.
Posted By: soleil Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/23/09 07:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
in MC yesterday he made it very clear that he not only "forgets" most of those episodes, he doesn't even see them as a problem. This piecing is going to take work!!!!!!!!!


My H does this. The good thing is he is in MC with you and is working at these issues with you. Am wishing you lots of luck smile
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/24/09 04:05 AM
Thank you Soleil - it helps to know I'm not the only one, although sorry you have this issue too. What is that?! I find it astonishingly unbelievable.

Anyhow, marked improvement since starting MC. The C is really good and definitely encourages H not to blow these things off.

H and I had another good night tonight with S - best xmastime in years. Perhaps I'm not taking my family for granted this year, I appreciate more. I have always harbored negative associations @ xmas due to my childhood, but this year I am treasuring every moment. Ginderbread houses, playdough ornaments, music concerts, and even though my H doesn't live here, I am relieved that the arguing is diminishing, our relationship seems to be turning for the better, my strength is increasing, and that there is hope for a new future for us.

I'm truly grateful for my blessings this year.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/24/09 04:13 AM
You sound good Hope.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/24/09 08:33 AM
I am GIMA! BEtter than I've been since I started here.

How do you post a link to a new thread? LIke you did on yours, GIMA? I'm thinking of moving to PIecing if things keep up this way...
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/24/09 01:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv
I am GIMA! BEtter than I've been since I started here.

How do you post a link to a new thread? LIke you did on yours, GIMA? I'm thinking of moving to PIecing if things keep up this way...


Go to the thread you want to link to - your current thread in your case. copy the address to the thread.

On hte DB site, go to the "My Stuff" pull down and click on "Edit Profile."

Open another browser window so you can go to www.tinyurl.com. You will need to shorten the address to your thread, so you paste it in to www.tinyurl.com and allow tinyurl to shorten it for you. This should automatically place the tinyurl link on your computer's clipboard.

Now go back to your edit profile window in DB. In the signature block type the following code:

[url=PASTE THE TINY URL LINK HERE] TYPE THE NAME YOU WANT TO CALL YOUR LINK[/url]

It sounds complicated, but it really isn't. Good luck.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/24/09 07:49 PM
Thanks GIMA As always, you are such a support!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/24/09 08:11 PM
I blew it today - in the holiday mode and too excited over his recent steps toward me - a mutual friend apparently invited H to a xmas party and like a non-DBer said, "Can I come?"

Ugh.

In some ways, it was an understandable question considering this is the first xmas we are separated and this mutual friend would normally invite us as a couple. Heck, this is the guy who married us!

So H was defensive and basically said I put him in an uncomfortable situation asking that question. I told him he should just be honest and we can figure out what's most comfortable for everyone. H is not great at talking.

And very conscious of my DB mistake, I am now kicking myself.

I guess since my H asked to come along to our "ski vacation" I figured maybe we were at the point of negotiating what we do alone or together.

Guess I'm supposed to wait for him to invite me or not?
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/24/09 09:12 PM
Just act like it didn't happen.

And yes, if he wants to invite you he will.

It's hard, but you have to view yourself as not M'd right now.
Merry Christmas Hope!!

I wouldn't kick myself too much for asking. You wouldn't know his response unless you tried.

Shake it off and enjoy your holiday. smile
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/26/09 09:22 AM
Thanks, friends. We had a wonderful holiday. And I will just forget it. In fact, I don't think H is even going to go. Had a fabulous Christmas, and H and I had a night out alone in the city, first one since we broke up. I know we are supposed to not be M. So let's say we hung out as friends. I kept it light and happy, no R talks.

I hope you all had as good a holiday as you could considering everything. I have been thinking of you all and hoping for the best.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/27/09 09:15 AM
Another great day. H has been staying here all weekend, even though he is usually at his apt. on weekends. I know it's just for the holidays, but it feels so great. We spent time together as a family, just relaxing and having an at home vacation. I guess when H isn't working like a dog, he likes to be here. I told him that S is really happy when we're all together as a family. H replies, "Do you think so?" Seriously, is he that out of touch? I guess so. Fog. SO I explained.......but had no R talks about how much I miss him, etc. Kept it light and fun. And it was.

One slip today, when H was a complete jerk. Go figure. When I bring up what a jerk he's being he escalates. Of course. SO I just had to shut my mouth and move on. I hate it, but we're in MC now so he can't get away with abuse anymore.

And he never went to that party so this evening was even great. Laughing a lot and enjoying post-christmas treats and toys. Really enjoying family time. God I miss us being a family. I love having H home and parenting together. I worked so hard to not get my hopes up and just try to enjoy the moments.

I can't believe we are getting along so well. I never thought we'd have these days again.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/28/09 10:36 AM
H initiated R talk tonight. Amazing. Rare. Open. Changed from typical WAS script of "things will never change, we should have never been together" to a clear split of indecision. He wonders half the time if we should not be together, vs. the other half if he is avoiding. This is huge peeps.

And he has been mostly jovial, nice, and just plain normal. Not so angry and abusive. Things really shifted over this holiday week.

MC tomorrow, more deep R talks anticipated.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/28/09 12:44 PM
Just dropping in for your reminder. Keep those expectations reigned in. It's hard to do.

It sounds like things might be heading in the right direction. Just keep your guard up.
Posted By: soleil Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/28/09 03:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Hope4Luv

And he has been mostly jovial, nice, and just plain normal. Not so angry and abusive. Things really shifted over this holiday week.

MC tomorrow, more deep R talks anticipated.


Good. Am glad to hear that. Hopefully your MC will go well smile
Posted By: luvless Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/28/09 03:59 PM
so happy for you hope - he's been thinking - maybe that fog is lifting.

i really hope so for hope smile
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/28/09 10:54 PM
THanks friends, details later
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/29/09 05:46 AM
Well MC was interesting - I guess "normal" from what I read on these boards, but I'm depressed.

H goes into what "he should have done differently" in our R since early on. Apparently "it was clear" to him that "I" had particular issues he "should have never put up with" from the beginning. H claims he was going with convention, not his true feelings, when agreeing to move in with me, and I assume I will hear more along the same lines as to marrying me, having a child, etc.

The depressing part is all of his "regrets" at his "own choices" were in not drawing a stronger line with ME or keeping more distance FROM ME. No mention of his abusive tendencies. No openess to what I have suffered. I made the point that it went two ways and that there were things that "I should have drawn a line with him" about but I was trying to listen and validate. I did own up to my tendency to engage in fights with him and that I also should have drawn the line with myself. But still no mention of his part in those fights.

I did admit the things I have done wrong - and that I am working now to change them. MC says H has to "experience" the changes, not just hear promises, before he believes them.

So that goes with DB - keep making my changes.

But I still feel totally blamed for any and all problems in our relationship. I only heard H taking responsibility for not drawing a line with me sooner.

Guess that is the WAS script? Guess that is why piecing is so hard?

Says he still doesn't know if/how he should set boundaries in this R and look at his own shortcomings (gee wouldn't that be nice) or if he should walk away and say it just isn't right for him.

He also admitted that since H left, his attitude has been that he should sacrifice nothing at all for the R to work, if it will at all. H did admit that this "may" be an extreme way of dealing with the problems in our R. MC agreed that H making no sacrifices, and me (admittedly) being willing to sacrifice anything to save M are two extremes that aren't healthy. Hope H thinks about that.

The only crack in the wall I could detect was that he was pondering the possibility that his position is extreme. What I put together is that he felt he didn't listen to himself as to what was working for him, and instead did what he "thought was right". He didn't always express that, and I sometimes didn't hear him when he did. So his attitude since leaving has been an extreme polarization to the other side - instead of ignoring his feelings and needs, he has focussed solely on his own feelings and needs.

My pain is in that nowhere in there did i hear my needs or feelings. I did not bring that up but it's what I'm suffering with tonight.

Very sad after such a wonderful, close holiday break.

Could be a sort of MIL? He's only 35, but a very serious person and overacheiver since his youth. Could be that he never got in touch with his true self, while trying to win approval in being very successful and perfect. So his demanding, bullying, aggresive stance of late could be his immature way of asserting his "true self" - at least in his eyes.

None of this helps me feel loved, appreciated, heard, empathized with. But I guess this is where we start.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/29/09 08:59 PM
Ok, so things keep getting better. I spoke up last night, since we are now having R talks = and told him I felt upset like H was saying his ONLY regret was not distancing from me. He laughed and said, no that there are plenty of mistakes to go around and he knows it.

He invited me to watch a show with him and we laughed and had a nice night. More open talking. He's really coming around.
Posted By: soleil Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/29/09 09:03 PM
Am glad to hear you're spending time together, Hope.

As for all of his regrets, about how he shouldn't have "put up with it"... bollocks. Nobody stuck a gun to his head and made him.

Don't bring it up again though. Just validate what he says. Hopefully he is validating your feelings.
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/30/09 03:03 AM
Well I had to make it clear in MC that they were still his choices, even if he claims to have just "gone along with something". I don't totally buy it, and neither did the therapist. However, I think my H does get stuck in "I have no choice" mode quite frequently and that is an excuse to not take responsibility. But the tide seems to be turning a bit -

H has validated my feelings recently, although last session was about me listening and validating him. But as recently as the last couple of nights, he has admitted to making a lot of mistakes. Far cry from the constant blame I have received for the last eight months! H has also heard me in the last couple of weeks when I set a boundary with his verbal rudeness. I even have had some apologies. I think he is softening and becoming a wee bit able to be vulnerable and try to trust again.

I'm nervous that when work gets back into ft mode, he will get all stressed and more abusive and shut down. Hopefully not. I'm still going with the listen and validate thing, even when I have to vent on here like I did yesterday! lol
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/30/09 06:10 AM
I'll give my H credit though - he keeps saying he's ready to go over all the hard stuff of our M in MC -- including having to listen to my side of things. We shall see. We've only just begun...

Another good sign = since H left, we have a schedule for S5 (H stays over here at the house on his nights). Tuesday is not his night, it's mine. I usually don't hear from him since it's just our routine. Tonight I got a txt, "Wanted to let you and S know I'm going out tonight so won't be there but will see you tomorrow."

If you've followed my sitch, not only does H disappear on his nights off from S, I usually have to track him down for his nights to find out what time he'll be here, etc. This is so unusual! He spent the last week here (vacation time and all) nonstop, so I suppose it was an extension of the time we've all been spending together - but man, that unsolicited and unnecessary text felt wonderful and is a good sign!
Posted By: Butterfly1 Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 12/31/09 04:56 AM
Needing DB reminders!

Reacting inside, trying to say nothing until I know the right thing to do - pls. help!

last week we were so close, this week he is taking time off from work, which is good in that there hasn't been the usual verbal lashings. But he's been going out and not inviting us, or offering to take S at all. Feels like he's rubbing my face in the fact that he's going out with friends (I often wonder if there's a girl, but probably not), and going on hikes ALONE - (presumably) but no offers of taking S or definitely not me. Also refuses to join us to family friends' house when invited.

Don't want to pursue! Want to act like I'm too focussed on my life to care. But also wanting to take advantage of any free and relaxed time H has - he's here tonight, even though we've been spending every night together, I've gone back to retreating into my room to only come out if invited (otherwise, showing I'm too busy) = this is what I did before when he was behind the stone cold brick wall, but now that there's cracks in the wall - do I approach? Do I invite him for a show tonight? for some time this week? Or do I keep doing my own thing and only respond if pursued by him? HELP

So, there's hot and cold. Well luke warm and cold. Guess it goes in waves. Must be a pullback. Guess I just act "as if" - like if we had no problems, I would support him going out by himself. He never did this before he left, so it feels threatening. Advice as to how to respond when he dangles that stuff in front of me?

I know I'm supposed to do my own things, GAL, not pursue but I feel like he's "DBing" me! All this mystery and independence does get my goat. Advice?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: I'm new wondering if this works... - 01/14/10 08:09 AM
Hope,

Thank you for checking in on me. I posted an update on my sitch when you have the time. Sounds like things are going relatively well in your sitch including the MC. I think the alone time your H is pursuing right now is probably a good thing- he needs time to work some things out on his own outside of MC.

Continue to be patient regarding what is happening in MC right now. I know from experience that it can be discouraging, but you just have to take a very long view of things as it is going to take time to reach your objective. And undoubtedly there will be backslides, hopefully none too severe.

I think you are doing great. Take care and I'll check back in when I can.
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