Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: tristan W can't break EA - not sure how to handle it - 08/11/09 10:19 PM
I have read DR and have been monitoring these forums for a while and they have been a great help. However, I am not exactly sure how to handle my specific situation.

Here it is:
My wife has developed an EA over the past 2 years. I had suspicions of it before, but really became fully aware of it in January. The affair began shortly after we had our second child and we were having some real difficulties in our marriage. We both have demanding jobs, 2 children, and general stress were getting to both of us. During those difficult times we tried a marriage counselor; but after a handful of sessions I cut it off because it seemed to be making matters worse (in retrospect, this was a huge mistake).

Fast forward to last December (a month before I really knew of the affair), my wife was diagnosed with major depression and started taking anti-depressents. This ended up being a misdiagnosis and the meds really caused havoc with her moods over the next 6 months. During this time, the OM divorced his wife and really started pressuring W to do the same so they could be together. During this time, she gave me the ILYBNILWY speech several times and talked of seperation etc. Things blew up several times from January through June, but we never did seperate.

We started marriage counseling again sometime in April (I think) and I think it helps some. In fact it was this counselor that suggested W go back to Psychologist and get another diagnosis. She did and was diagnosed with Bipolar 2. The anti-depressants were causing her to rapid cycle (which means her moods were aleways in flux and it was difficult for her to think rationally). She started taking a new regimine of meds in mid-June. This seemed to help our marriage and things really seemed to be on the mend through early July. But then she had a severe allergic reation to the new med and she had to be taken off it immediately; this wreaked havoc in her moods again. She began talking of seperation again and I began reacting badly which didn't help. She was immediately started on a new med, but it takes a while to be titrated up to a theraputic dose.

Anyway, I think the new med hit a theraputic dose a couple of weeks ago. Her moods have been much more stable recently. During this time, she has renewed her interest on working on our marriage. I have read DR and have taken the advice of not pursuing her or talking about the relationship. Things have been moving in the right direction for us.

So my problem is this: I know she still talks to the OM daily (often 2 or 3 times). I am suspicious (but can not confirm) that she has seen him a couple of times over the past 2 weeks as well. After she crashed because of the allergic reaction, I was giving her a pass on the OM (she was essentually a mental mess). However, I know this EA has to end before we can fully heal. Since I have stopped talking about the OM, things have been getting better.

I think DR said to not change something if it is working, so I am not sure I want to discuss the OM. However, at some point I need to make it an issue, right? Now that she is stable, how much time should I give her before making it an issue? I would really appreciate some advice.
Have you ever confronted the OM?
No. I met him a couple of times before any of this occurred. The last time we were together I remember being uncomfortable with the way he was interacting with W.
You aren't suggesting that I confront the OM; are you? I have no idea what I would say. I think he is a sad existence of a human being. He was my wife's boss when he told her that "loved her". He is telling her that our children are not benefiting by living in a "loveless marriage". He has given her information on how to deal with the children in a divorce. The whole time telling her that he will just back away if she thinks that we have a chance. And that is just the tip of the iceburg.

If I did meet this guy now, I am not sure I would be able to keep my cool. He is making it very difficult for us to work on our marriage. Because of their current job positions it is hard for her to completely seperate herself from him. However, he is no longer her boss.
Quote:
I have no idea what I would say. I think he is a sad existence of a human being. He was my wife's boss when he told her that "loved her". He is telling her that our children are not benefiting by living in a "loveless marriage". He has given her information on how to deal with the children in a divorce. The whole time telling her that he will just back away if she thinks that we have a chance. And that is just the tip of the iceburg.



This guy is a threat to your marriage don't stand by and watch. You confront your wife and tell her that you will not share her with another man. She will stop contact with him and there will be transparency. If she says that she talks to him because of work then help her find a new job. This is a very serious issue and inaction is not the answer. Handle it.
I have tried this. She stops for a short time, but can't follow through saying it is too hard. Do I need to be prepared to walk out if she can't do it? The MC told me not to make any decisions until the psychiatrist can get her emotions stabilized. She seems to be much better now, but her appointment with the psychiatrist is not until next week. I know that I need to push this hard at some point, I am just wondering about the timing. She doesn't want to be "controlled" or "manipulated".
Do the MC and the psych know about the EA and the ongoing contact? Specifically what the OM has told your wife? This guy is a snake.

Boundaries are not controlling or manipulating.
The MC does know much of it. He has said that I will (at some point) need to put my foot down. But he has also said to wait and see how she is after she is stabilized in a private session with me. I know that she has told the psych that we are having marriage problems, but I am not sure if she has told him about the OM. In our group sessions, the marriage counselor says that I can't be concerned with the OM - that I need to work on my issues (which are my insecurities/anxiety about the OM). He says he OM is her concern, she needs to figure that out on her own. However, shouldn't I be feeling insecure/anxious about this? Like you said, this is a serious issue.

I know he is a snake. Why can't she see that??? She says that I don't understand, that he "really is a good man." It's nice to hear someone else say he is a snake.

So if simply putting my foot down does not work; what's next?

Thank you for your help. This site is a blessing.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 11:40 AM
So I brought up the issue last night. W admitted to a PA (claims just kissing) and said she needed to seperate to find out what she wanted. I am devastated and confused. I have no idea what to do? I first tried to sleep on the couch after the conversation, but gave in and went back to the bed. I know that is not what I should have done, but I was so distraught.

I woke up early and came to work. I woke her up. She said I just "saved her from falling into some murky/dirty water" in her dream. I asked her how she was doing; she said "Having a hard time". She asked how I was; my reply was "Not sure". I left for work without giving her a kiss. First time in a long while.

We have a MC session tonight. She wants to talk about seperating there. I have no idea how to respond. Do I simply accept it? Is it OK if I say I am not ready to talk about how to deal with the children right now? I am ashamed to say this, but I don't really feel like being with them right now. I don't feel like being with anyone; I just want to crawl into a hole in the ground.
Let her go.

Don't beg, plead, argue, etc. Give her space to figure it out.

Then work on YOU. Go dark -- have you read up on LRT?

Read Puppy's and Gucci's posts - they're the big guns on WAW's.
Originally Posted By: tristan
So if simply putting my foot down does not work; what's next?


Then you learn to put your foot down harder!

Originally Posted By: tristan
I just want to crawl into a hole in the ground.


Your feet need to be on the ground, sir! Stand up. SM.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 12:23 PM
How do I go dark while living in the same home. There will be a time before she actually moves out. Do I move out of the room tonight? Do I spend more time out taking care of me and less with the children?
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 02:03 PM
You just got another bomb dropped on you so regroup your thoughts and let your feelings out. First thing to do to get out of a hole is stop digging. This won't last forever and you can handle it. Don't reply to any communication from her today it can wait a day.

She wants to seperate then let it be all on her. She can move, tell the kids, and you don't have to agree but you will not stand in her way.

Take care of yourself and your kids.

Coach
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 02:27 PM
Thank you. We have a MC session tonight, I will do just that: not agree but not stand in her way either.

However, should I be completely honest about my feelings (that I am extemely hurt, angry, distraught, and anxious) in the session or try to be upbeat and say that "I don't agree but it is ok with me"? Neither one seems right to me.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 02:32 PM
Never wrong to be honest with your feelings. Can you articulate why you feel the way you do? Why are you angry, hurt, distraught and anxious?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 02:49 PM
Angry: I am angry because she has not been completely honest/deceptive with me.

Hurt/Distraught: When the one you love wants to walk away, it hurts (there is no way around it - is there?)

Confused: She tells me that I am her best friend. I am a great father. A great husband. Very good lover (she told me this last night). There is nothing more that I can do to make our relationship better. Yet she still wants to walk away. What gives?

Anxious: My life has been turned upside down. I am anxious that I can't make it through this with my sanity and still be a person I can be proud of. I am afraid that I won't be able to be the father I want to be. And won't be able to build the loving family that I have dreamt of my entire life.
Tristan, I think you need to get professional advice.

Bipolar is not a small thing. With all due respect to the people on the board, you are dealing with mental illness here, and while DR, etc may be helpful, you're talking about your wife being "stabilized" for only a couple of weeks. I wouldn't be taking people's strong opinions about strong actions to be taken without consulting professionals.

Your MC told you to wait until she saw her psych again...I guess the question I have is what are YOU doing, and what is YOUR support here? What is your role with the psych, etc? It sounds like you are involved with the medical process? Yes? Are you receiving any kind of counseling/education/support on dealing with a bipolar spouse?

I'm not saying people here are wrong...I'm just saying I would be careful about following advice intended for ordinary situations.

Lastly...I'll say that you cannot underestimate the deception and mind control a person like this OM is capable of, ESPECIALLY if your wife is having emotional problems to begin with. "Snake" doesn't begin to cover it, but there is no point in telling her that right now.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 03:35 PM
Thank you breakaway. It sounds like you have some experience with bi-polar. I have not talked to the psych, I have not been invited to the sessions nor have I asked to join. But I listen to what W has told me about them. She admits to being vague about the OM in the psych sessions. I think she is embarrassed as she knew and respected the psych from work before seeing him as a patient.

The MC originally thought that she might have borderline tendencies, but the psyche disagreed and said she was bi-polar 2. The psyche said he would have recognized borderline tendencies when she worked with him. The MC now agrees with the bi-polar diagnosis, but I think he still believes she has borderline tendencies. She has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from a violent family incident when she was 9 and her sexual-assault at 17 which contributes to the mental problems. She has not had an easy life to say the least.

I know that the "Snake" has great persuassion on her. I know that she has repeated things he has said verbatim. For example, "I know where I need to go (meaning seperation), I am just afraid to get there." She said that in a MC session once. Later, I found an e-mail of him saying almost the exact same thing to her.

Where do I go to get professional help? May I ask to join her at her psych appointment next week? Do I call another psych and set up an appointment for myself? I am at a loss here.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Thank you breakaway. It sounds like you have some experience with bi-polar. I have not talked to the psych, I have not been invited to the sessions nor have I asked to join. But I listen to what W has told me about them. She admits to being vague about the OM in the psych sessions. I think she is embarrassed as she knew and respected the psych from work before seeing him as a patient.


This psych is at her work?? That's a bit sticky, isn't it? I mean if she's involved with someone who was her boss? Sexual harassment could be an issue here. Not to muddy it up anymore!! sorry...really that's not that important right now as long as she's seeing a psych (thank God).

Quote:
The MC originally thought that she might have borderline tendencies, but the psyche disagreed and said she was bi-polar 2. The psyche said he would have recognized borderline tendencies when she worked with him. The MC now agrees with the bi-polar diagnosis, but I think he still believes she has borderline tendencies. She has Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from a violent family incident when she was 9 and her sexual-assault at 17 which contributes to the mental problems. She has not had an easy life to say the least.
I would read what you can online about both bipolar 2 and borderline tendencies, for your own info. The thing is a person can have "tendencies" and not meet the criteria for an actual diagnosis of borderline. But "tendencies" can certainly screw up your life. It's often a confusing overlap between bipolar and borderline, but if medicine improves her condition, then I'd say the doc is right. Personality disorders can't be helped by medication. I am NOT a doctor, so I am only speaking from miserable personal experiences...that's why I say you need to learn more.

Quote:
I know that the "Snake" has great persuassion on her. I know that she has repeated things he has said verbatim. For example, "I know where I need to go (meaning seperation), I am just afraid to get there." She said that in a MC session once. Later, I found an e-mail of him saying almost the exact same thing to her.
This guy is a predator, plain and simple. He's brainwashing her. That can be dealt with, but first I'd say to look at that as a side issue right now, because though it's the biggest visible "problem" right now, it's really symptomatic of what else is going on. I had an EA, and it's been difficult to extract myself emotionally even after it ended, so I will help you understand that how I can.

Quote:
Where do I go to get professional help? May I ask to join her at her psych appointment next week? Do I call another psych and set up an appointment for myself? I am at a loss here.
Honestly, I don't know about those questions. I would call her psych's office and ask them about it. There are also online websites/support groups for loved ones of bipolar and personality disordered people.

This one is very good, I would start there.
http://www.outofthefogsite.com/
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 04:05 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
This psych is at her work?? That's a bit sticky, isn't it?

The psych is from a job prior to the one with the snake, so there is no relation between the psyche and the snake.
Originally Posted By: breakaway
I would read what you can online about both bipolar 2 and borderline tendencies, for your own info. The thing is a person can have "tendencies" and not meet the criteria for an actual diagnosis of borderline. But "tendencies" can certainly screw up your life. It's often a confusing overlap between bipolar and borderline, but if medicine improves her condition, then I'd say the doc is right. Personality disorders can't be helped by medication.

Believe me, I have done as much reading as I can to understand this. Unfortunately, I don't find a lot of answers on "How to fix things". I just find out why things are happening the way they are. It helps me understand what's going on, but I have no clue how to fix it.
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Honestly, I don't know about those questions. I would call her psych's office and ask them about it. There are also online websites/support groups for loved ones of bipolar and personality disordered people.

This one is very good, I would start there.
http://www.outofthefogsite.com/


Thank you for the advice. I will see what I can do.
Originally Posted By: tristan

Believe me, I have done as much reading as I can to understand this. Unfortunately, I don't find a lot of answers on "How to fix things". I just find out why things are happening the way they are. It helps me understand what's going on, but I have no clue how to fix it.


Oh, sugar, this is why you need some help. You can't "fix it." But you can learn what to expect and how to cope...and what is realistic. I think you do have some hope that with meds she can sort out the rest of her crap, and you can learn how to respond and how to take care of you.

That link is good, there are support sections for people who are working on staying with the person. And some for separating from a disordered person. You might have noticed that it can be a very Alice In Wonderland experience.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 04:35 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
You might have noticed that it can be a very Alice In Wonderland experience.

You got that right. Sometimes I have no idea what way is up. What is right or wrong. It didn't use to be this way though. We had at least 8 great years.

The snake is telling her that he believes her disorder is "situational" and it would likely get better if she left me. Sometimes, I find myself wondering if it is true. Then am ashamed that I could even think that my W and kids would be better off with this guy than me. It is so hard to not get caught up in her world and conflicted way of thinking.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 04:49 PM
I agree with Breakaway about coordinating with her prof help. They do need to be made aware of what this snake is doing.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 04:56 PM
It is not unusual for a psych to speak to or meet with the spouse of a client. You can call, tell the psych you have some important info to share and see if s/he wants to talk to you further. They psych cannot tell you anything your W has said in session, and by the same token, the psych cannot tell your W anything you have said w/o your permission. Psych may ask you if a certain issue can be brought up with W in one of her sessions, and psych may also have advice on who/when/how to tell W that you spoke to him/her.

If psych does not know about W's trauma/abuse history, this is important info to share.

Give the psych a call and go from there.
You can "read", you can "understand", you can be paralyzed with fear, you can "stand", but you will cooling your heels forever.

Look for Fightingfit's threads and take her advice to heart. It is the best I've ever read here. Your wife needs good shaking-up from a BIG 180 from you.

Also, anytime I read "EA" on this forum, I just automatically think, "BULLSH!T!!" Because I know that the infidel is f*cking her "friend." And I just love how these liars say the most ridiculous things to insult the betrayed spouse. "Nothing really happened", "We just kissed", "We only did it ONCE." I think the old "we only did it once" is my favorite.

After reading here for quite awhile, I see how many of us being jerked around. We allow it because we're "scared." Well, enough of that crap.

I think it would be a good idea for you to tell her that if she doesn't END THIS IMMEDIATELY, you are more than willing to kick her to the curb and go for custody of the kids. They certainly don't need a lying, cheating, bi-polar mother for a role model.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 06:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Dia
It is not unusual for a psych to speak to or meet with the spouse of a client. You can call, tell the psych you have some important info to share and see if s/he wants to talk to you further. They psych cannot tell you anything your W has said in session, and by the same token, the psych cannot tell your W anything you have said w/o your permission. Psych may ask you if a certain issue can be brought up with W in one of her sessions, and psych may also have advice on who/when/how to tell W that you spoke to him/her.

If psych does not know about W's trauma/abuse history, this is important info to share.

Give the psych a call and go from there.


Thank you Dia. I gave the office a call and they said the Dr will give me a call back. I feel uncomfortable doing this. Does anyone think this is a bad idea? Being that I am the spouse (that has a stake in her decision), I wonder how much weight he will give to the information I divulge. At least I can get some suggestions on where I can get help.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/13/09 07:09 PM
I just talked to the psyche. He was very pleasent. He listened to me and seemed to take note of the things I said. After I had my say, he told me in "generalities" that bi-polar patients often see things through "different lenses" (while in depressed or manic states) and make decisions that they would not have otherwise. He went on to say that he has often seen the devastating effects of those decisions when the perverbial s*** hits the fan. He said I needed to find an individual counselor to help cope with W. He then said I hope everything works out for the best - for you, W, and the kids sake. I really did feel that he was on the side of our marriage. Thank God. She sees him next week.

MC session in less than 3 hours. I am extremely anxious.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/14/09 01:40 PM
Journaling:

Waiting for the counseling session, W tells me she told MIL about affair and desire for seperation. She said that the MIL was very upset and seemed somewhat surprised that the MIL "took my side" as strongly as she did. She also told me that she bought the book "Contemplating Divorce". She made note that it was a "Workbook" not a "How To".

She brought up the desire to seperate in the MC session. The counselor, asked her her reasons and how far along in the planning she was. Then said, essentially that there was no reason for us to be in marriage counseling if we were not going to be working on our marriage. He is going to see me as an IC, she already has an IC.

I arrive home from session, greet the children and receive an big hug from a very emotional MIL, who is staying with us for 3 weeks. It was hard not to get choked up, so I went up to lie down. On my way up I hear the girls ask mommy "Why is everyone crying?" MIL came into the room a few minutes later to express how sorry she was and that she was going to pray for me.

Got my composure and shaved my goatee. I had one because my wife had mentioned that she liked them and liked the way it looked on me. I guess I looked at it as a way of taking control of my own life. Then went for a long walk as the counselor suggested.

When I got home, W noticed that I had shaved the goatee and made a comment that it made me look younger. I helped putting the 2 girls to bed and went to our room to continue reading "We: Understanding the Psychology of Romantic Love". It is not somethng I would normally read (I am an engineer that enjoys the more concrete), but I am finding it intersting and it does help me understand the dynamics in our behavior.

W comes in a few minutes later, she has tears in her eyes and says "You must hate me?" I simply say "I don't hate you." She lies down to start her workbook. I can tell she wants to talk, but doesn't say anything. I give her my attention, but do not say anything either. After a moment, she asks how am I doing. I think I just shrugged my shoulders and asked how she was. She said "Sad. I am having a hard time." I think my reply was "Sorry." She puts her book down, she couldn't have read more than a paragragh, grabs my hand, kisses it, and says goodnight. I can tell she is having a hard time; I ask if she feels if she is at the bottom of a canyon with every cliff to steep to climb. She replies "Yes. I feel trapped in a hole." The adds " or between a wall and a sword".

She woke up early this morning and went down to work in the workbook. I stayed in bed for about 45 more minutes, then went down with our eldest daughter. I sat down on the couch to continue some reading. W moved to be next to me. We didn't say anything, we just read.

After taking my shower, I was in a towel putting cream on myself for my eczema. My wife asks if I want her to put some on my back. I reply "Does it need it?" She says "It is red". I hand her the tube. She doesn't rush through putting it on. When she finishes, she gives a little giggle. I give her a puzzling look; she goes on to say "It's strange. How in some ways we can be so connected and in others so distant". I reply "I understand how we are connected; I don't understand how we are so distant". She said "It is hard to explain." I turn around. She looks at me and says "You look great." One benefit to all this anxiety is that I have lost 25 lbs.

I was about to leave for work. She says "Wait. I will walk out with you." I oblige. As we reach her car, she turns and asks for a hug. We hug and she kisses me on the cheek. As we pull away, I look at her and say "This is hard." She says "It is hard. Hopefully, this workbook will help." I ask "How?" Her reply "Hopefully it will help me figure out what I want to do. One way or the other."

I feel much better today than I did 24 hours ago.
Hi Tristan. Sounds like you're wife is definitely confused, and that's a good thing in the scheme of things because she isn't adamant about leaving.

Can you tell us what are the reasons she's given you for feeling like she should divorce? What have been her complaints specifically?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/14/09 02:36 PM
The short answer is:
ILYBNILY. - That is what she tells me anyway. But then she adds the caveat "... But sometimes I do feel like I am in love with you". She has resentment for the way I treated her a couple of years ago. I was not always the greatest husband and did not help out nearly enough when the children were younger. I was not supportive of her career at that time either. She has good reasons to be upset for those things. However, she agrees that I have changed now. But she says those feelings for me have not come back.
Okay, more specific than that please.

I love it when guys say, "I wasn't the greatest husband." What does that MEAN? HOW weren't you supportive of her career? What did you say? What did you do?

Just trying to help you out here, so you can be more specifically different moving forward, so I can maybe give you a bit of a glance in her heart. I smiled when you said you were an engineer...it seems there are more than their share of them here...all that "feelings" stuff. wink
Posted By: Stronger Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/14/09 02:55 PM
Hi T
I think it's great that your W is very confused.
I hate OPs. They are just such pieces of crap. My H's OW finally showed her a$$ and boy did it do a number on H. He felt pretty stupid. And all I could do was smile. I hate to say it, but I did. I couldn't help him. I warned him, along with many other friends. He didn't listen and in the end he said "I wish I could go back and in time and relive this past year." Right, me too buddy. Get the Dolorean and the Professor and some plutonium.

Anyways. How old are the girls?

And yes, what did you do to push her away?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/14/09 06:06 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Okay, more specific than that please.

I love it when guys say, "I wasn't the greatest husband." What does that MEAN? HOW weren't you supportive of her career? What did you say? What did you do?


Alright, here is my public confessional:

I guess I had some sort of mid-life crisis after our first daughter was born. I tried to cram down a lot of things that I always wanted to do, but hadn't up to that point. I trained for and ran a marathon. I started a small company on the side of my career. Between these 2 things, I had very little time to help out. W was doing laundry, cooking, taking care of the baby, while mantaining a career of her own. Now that I look back on it, I was amazingly selfish. I remember I would ask if she needed help, and she would reply "No. Do what you need to do." This was an obvious cry for help, but I was completely oblivious to it.

Our second child was born. I think I became more helpful, but not nearly as helpful as I should have been. Shortly after the birth of our second child, my W took a new position at a new company as a manager. It was her first real promotion. This is also the time that she started working under the OM (but that is a sidepoint). I was supportive of the move, but I believe there was some envy in me at the time as well. I helped out more, but it was always on my terms. And for some reason, I had some sort of anxiety over the babies myself. So to help out, I would go grocery shopping while W stayed at home and took care of the girls. W rarely got out of the house unless it was as a family or to go to work.

The new career definitely added more stress on her. She had an anxiety attack a few months after beginning it. I remember being in the emergency room at 2 AM praying that the screening for MS came back negative (the way the attack presented itself was the same as some of the MS symptoms). Fortunately, they said it was "just" anxiety.

At this point, we were having major disagreements on how we spend our free time (which given our careers we had very little of). She wanted some of her free time to go out with our own individual friends. I thought that we needed to spend more time alone together by getting a baby-sitter. But she was already feeling guilty about how little the girls were seeing of us and couldn't have a good time even when we did go out alone.

Less than a year after becoming manager, she was promoted to Assistant Director. This time I know I was envious of her promotion and it showed. I was also afraid of how much time the new position would take. It would mean more travel, late meetings, etc. I remember (and she does too) a statement I made when we were talking about a week that she needed to travel and I was going to need to take care of the children: "You always seem to be trying to fill your life with something. First it was me. When I wasn't enough you needed to get cats, so we got cats. Then when the cats weren't enough you wanted children, so we had children. And now that the children aren't enough, you are trying to fill it with your career." This statement made her extremely angry and for good reason. Her reply: "Don't you dare bring the kids into this." I think this was the most visibly angry I have ever seen her. At this point, I think our marriage was in free-fall.

However, that was not the end of it. After a bad week with a single female manager at work; I made a statement paraphrased: "All the male managers at work seem to be easy-going, but the women all seem to be such b****s". What makes it worse is that I do not swear, so the fact that I did in that statement put that much more emphasis on it. I am not proud of this statement, but it was said and can not be taken back. My W took it personally and still has not let it go.

Somewhere in this time, my W invited me to MC to see if we could get things turned around between us. I agreed and we went. From the very beginning I was feeling ganged up on; and of course I was too arrogant to believe that it could be because I was in the wrong. We were fighting mainly about who should being taking care of the children and when. I would say that we needed to get more help via a nanny or babby-sitter. She would say that it needed to be done by the parents; we were away too much as it is. The marriage counselor frustrated me because we would argue, she would look at us, sigh and say "This is hard. This is really hard." And I felt we were getting little advice on how to solve our disagreements. So in one of the sessions, I got upset and said "These sessions are doing us no good. We just go home more upset at each other than when we came." My wife didn't contend the statement and neither really did the MC. That ended a short stint of marriage counselling a couple of years ago.

However, I believe that I did take some of the sessions to heart and started helping out more around the house. I was doing laundry, washing dishes, changing diapers more than I had before. But I had this problem of always needing her to be on a schedule. If she would go out and said she would be back by 6. I expected her to be back by 6. If it didn't happen that way, I would get upset and be trying to call her at 6:01. She still reminds me of a time when she spent a month trying to get time to go out with a girlfriend and when she finally was able to schedule a breakfast date on a Saturday and she returned 2 hours late - it ruined our whole weekend because I was so upset.

Anyway, I believe that I have been gradually changing over the last 2 years to be the man she says I am today. However, she contends that I changed overnight 8 months ago when she first told me that she was having an EA and wanted to seperate.

I know there are many more times of when I have failed her. But I tried to hit the high points. I hope that is enough detail.
Posted By: Stronger Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/14/09 07:36 PM
Yup. It sure does.

You sound like the male version of me in many ways.

I would start with this, if you haven't done it already....it went a long long with my H when I said it, and I was as serious as a heart attack: (Not exact verbage, but you'll get the point) "H, for a while I've been wanting to say this to you because you deserve to hear it and you deserve me to say it sincerely. I have been thinking about my part that got us to where we are today. (And that would be separated at the time, with him deep in an EA that at the time I didn't realize was a PA for a short time) I want you to know that I'm sorry for the short fuse. I am sorry for the blow ups that really were exaggerated. I'm sorry for the many days, weeks and months you felt you were living on eggshells. I am sorry for putting so much before you and taking you for granted, assuming you would always be there. I'm sorry I over estimated my worth. Basically I'm sorry for my part in getting us here."

It was much longer than that....but I think you understand. I made a list of everything I had done to be a crappy wife and spouse. I had our S and changed careers about the same time. I had a friend getting divorced (ironic huh?). I started to exercise more and took up tennis, sort of half a$$ed, but I did. H was definitely put behind all of that, maybe not the exercise and tennis, but he was not the priority in my life for way too long. I changed our sex life....meaning, I slowed it down a LOT and I made it pretty boring. I stopped going out almost 100% and when I did, I went out for about an hour or two and wanted to go home to the baby. I developed a hair trigger temper. If he said he'd be home at 6:00, so help him if he wasn't. Then he tried to not tell me what time he'd be home from whatever....so help him again. It just got worse and worse.

I could really go on.

And in my defense, he wasn't perfect either, but I can say that as we pushed ourselves toward separation, I was 51% of the problem, he was 49%.

And during our separation, there was the EA/PA...with co-worker OW. I'm working on getting my feelings around all of that now. And H is really starting to help me with that in his own way and also some ways I've told him I need.

Basically, like my H told me....he is scared my changes are all BS. He is waiting to see. He was completely honest about it. He hopes they are real and sincere and will last because he does like them, but he's leary.

On my end, I've told him I will NEVER do this again. No more EAs, and really really, no more PAs.

Hang in there.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/14/09 08:08 PM
Thank you stronger. I hope things work out for you as well. When I get time I will see if I can find your thread.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/14/09 08:15 PM
Journaling:

Wife just called:
M: "Hola"
W: pause ... "Hi"
<awkward silence>
W: "I was just here with my mom and told her that I was thinking of you. And if I was doing that, I should call and let you know it. And she said that yes I should."
M: "Thank you. I have thought of you today too."
W: "So would you like to go out tonight?"
M: "You mean us... alone?"
W: "Yes."
M: "Sure. I guess. What did you have in mind?"

...

This is my "Alice in Wonderland" world.
Posted By: Stronger Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/14/09 08:23 PM
Hi my first name was Almostdonebut...
then things turned around
and then I changed it to stronger
I'm in MLC but probably should not be there...it wasn't really MLC though he had some traits
Posted By: Stronger Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/14/09 08:27 PM
I think you need to kiss your mother in law and say, "I love you for worrying about us....do you think she felt pressured to call me? I don't want either one of us to pressure her....help me be careful of that ok?" And try to get MIL to back off a bit. Who likes to be pressured?

But the most important thing you can do tonight is be LIGHT AND RELAXED. If she even tries to bring up R talk, stop her and say, let's do that another time...OK, let's have fun tonight. Unless you really have something you need to get off your chest, let's just play tonight.....

Be fun, smell good.
I can tell you that I have had every emotion possible toward my H...clearly she still has some feelings for you, and I think wants to do what the best thing is, she just doesn't know what the best thing is.

I am sorry that I won't be able to give much more input as my plate is really really full today and this weekend but I'll try.

Kudos that you could admit all the marriage problems. I have to say the first thing that stood out is that marriage counselor you guys went to the first time sucked!! Probably wasn't bad to leave that one, but it's too bad you didn't try someone else. Ah well, water under the bridge.

Try to make tonight fun, like stronger said.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/15/09 02:59 PM
Journaling:

Came home from work yesterday. Greeted children, wife came to give a kiss on the lips, I turned to make it on the cheek. Small talk continued, I went up to get ready and smell good ;-) W was excited to wear a new dress she bought after asking me out. It was very nice, somewhat revealing.

We went to eat at a restaurant that we both had been wanting to go to for a while. It was good food and the talk was light. It was fun. We followed it up with an hour of free salsa lessons and some salsa and merengue dancing. Neither of us can really salsa, but we do a decent merengue. That was fun too. It felt like old times.

On the way home, she pops in a CD that I had put together for Valentine's Day. We don't talk a lot, she just closes her eyes. We get home and get ready for bed. She lays pretty much in the middle; I feel like lying with her but take my corner instead. Some time during the night I moved closer, she took my hand and wrapped it around her.

The girls woke us up this morning. She was not in a hurry to get out of bed, staying in my arms. After the girls finally pulled her out of bed, she turns to me and says "Thank you." My reply "For what?". "Being you." she says.

She is taking her mom to church this morning (MIL is Seventh Day Adventist, sabath is Saturday). I will be taking D3 down to my grandfather's birthday. 4 hour trip - wish me well. Before leaving, my wife gives me a big hug and a kiss on the lips (this time I don't turn).

Gotta go, I have a party to get too.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/16/09 10:59 PM
are you & your wife still physically intimate with each other?

Woman don't always like to initiate the physical part (truth be told I bet you it's the majority of women that want their men to take the initiative/lead instead of asking if it's ok, some women want to be "taken", it shows how secure you are with yourself.)

Regardless of rejection, even if she had said no possibly if you had made your advances to her, in the end, not making the attempt at all guaranteed that you rejected yourself first before she even had a chance. If this isn't clear let me know and I'll explain further.

Next time you get in this situation and you want to be sexual with your wife, don't let the fear of her rejection stop you from trying altogether - when you do that, you guarantee 100% that nothing will happen.

Rejection may suck but sometimes I think guys shoot ourselves in the foot but assuming that rejection is a given, it's not always the case and you end up missing out on an opportunity to be close to your wife.

Show her your masculine side, it's attractive.
Originally Posted By: robx
some women want to be "taken", it shows how secure you are with yourself.


I cannot think of worse advice.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 03:26 PM
breakaway, you take the word "taken" in the wrong context, I'm not saying anything like force her to do something against her will and if you understood that, give your head a shake, no one would ever condone that.

All I said was that maybe his wife wanted him to initiate the physical connection between them, she doesn't want to have to paint the picture for him to let him know when it's ok, she wants him to be secure & brave enough to at least try.

My advice is not the worst advice, trust me, I'm sure it's closer to the truth than you yourself would admit.

And if we don't want to admit that physical affairs are happening and that women & men are cheating on their respective spouses with other people and having sex, the kind of sex that is initiated without the fear of rejection, the kind of sex which is lustful & passionate & physical vs. the "same old boring routine", than you're not admitting what is actually happening in real life.

What is actually "worse advice" is lying to yourself.

I have chosen to be honest, direct and say what's on my mind and it's been working for me.
Posted By: Orich Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 03:28 PM
Along these lines, I wonder if it is a good or bad thing to initiate in my sitch. It has been several months. We have no physical contact and no signs even subtle from W that she wants to. There is no OM. My IC says I should bring up the sex issue with her. Co-workers say just jump in and initiate.
Would initiation be considered pursuing? I thought it might.
Originally Posted By: robx
breakaway, you take the word "taken" in the wrong context, I'm not saying anything like force her to do something against her will and if you understood that, give your head a shake, no one would ever condone that.
uh, yeah, some people do...anyway it's an attitude...that I've noticed in other posts of yours and I've only read a few. If you were giving my husband advice, we'd already be divorced. It is precisely him softening towards me and not acting out this ridiculous version of "masculinity" you're talking about that's keeping me around.

Quote:
All I said was that maybe his wife wanted him to initiate the physical connection between them, she doesn't want to have to paint the picture for him to let him know when it's ok, she wants him to be secure & brave enough to at least try.

You have no idea what she thinks. You don't possibly have enough information to know if that's true. And again, how does it show a man's "security" to initiate sex? Do you know how many insecure men thinks that's what makes them a man?

Quote:
My advice is not the worst advice, trust me, I'm sure it's closer to the truth than you yourself would admit.


LOL. Oh, thank you, big masculine man for telling addled little me what the truth is about what women "really want." I can't admit I want a man to take me. Is that it? Thanks.

Quote:
And if we don't want to admit that physical affairs are happening and that women & men are cheating on their respective spouses with other people and having sex, the kind of sex that is initiated without the fear of rejection, the kind of sex which is lustful & passionate & physical vs. the "same old boring routine", than you're not admitting what is actually happening in real life.


Hmmm....well, been there, done that, got a scarlet letter t-shirt in real life. I'd say you have tunnel vision about what is going on in affairs.

Quote:
What is actually "worse advice" is lying to yourself.
Nothing about the previous conversations anyone is having with tristan has to do with people lying to themselves. You just seem bent on spreading some kind of uber-male philosophy of yours.

Quote:
I have chosen to be honest, direct and say what's on my mind and it's been working for me.


Being honest and direct doesn't make you correct.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 03:59 PM
What is your current situation Orich, don't point me to a link to your thread because I can't read 20 pages to find out the current story. Where are you at right now? What is her real excuse for not loving you ever again? When I say "real excuse", I mean tell me what she says is the reason and what you believe to be the real reason because I'm sure the 2 of them are probably different.

In the end,
the quickest way between point A to point B is a straight line.

Tell her you would like to have sex with her.

Tell her you think about it 90 seconds of every minute... literally.

Do you miss touching her, kissing her, looking at her, being physically intimate with her?

Tell her you miss those things and you would like to do those things with her. Tell her you know how she currently feels. If she isn't ready for physical intimacy/sex, offer her something else. Tell you would enjoy giving her a back massage or a full body massage with some massage oil, you enjoy touching her skin and she would probably enjoy a nice massage, it would relieve some of her stress and you would get alot of satisfaction from being able to touch her.

If she says something about her thinking that she may never love you like that again, tell her you understand but you would still enjoy giving her a massage and you won't expect her to fall in love with you if you give her a massage.

Thinking about this and everything else won't get you there.

You have to turn that thought into action.

You have to speak up.

Don't be an a$$, don't argue, don't get mad.

Here is something that will give you a leg up on all of this.

Expect to be rejected.
Expect it.

Don't quit after the first time.

Ask her again, not within 5min. but try again the next day.

Tell you understand that it would only be physical and you can live with that.

Start with offering the foot rubs & back massages, ask her what she likes when she eventually gives in and says that she'll let you do it one time. When it does happen that she finally gives and says yes to the back massage or foot rub or full body massage, ask her what she likes? Is there a specific area in her upper back that is sore and needs some attention? How about her hips, or just above the small of her back? How about her calve muscles and her heals, all of these areas receive alot of stress and benefit from rubbing & massage, offer it to her. Don't expect sex in return, if she asks what you will get out of doing this for her, tell her you're doing it because you enjoy touching her skin.

Point A to Point B, straight line, don't lie, don't waver, be honest and direct to the point.

Pursuing is one thing, but when you're massaging her, giving her a backrub/footrub or having sex with her, you are receiving something out of this as well, you are receiving personal satisfaction as well, it's ok to be honest about this, you're a human being, lying about this is just lying and there is already enough of that in this world.

Don't whine if she rejects your offer, offer it to her again, the next day, a few days after that, the next week, each time you are rejected, just smile because you knew you were expecting the rejection and since you were expecting it, you can't take it personally.

Expect rejection and plan for how you will react accordingly, this will communicate that you are different from the previous person she knew. Just smile and say "OK, maybe another time".

When the rejection finally stops and you get a response like "I could use a foot rub or a back rub", be prepared, smile, get your skin lotion or massage oil and enjoy yourself.

Work on getting your foot in the door so to speak, don't succumb after the first rejection - don't pout and don't get angry - you're a man, a strong masculine man and you are prepared to handle this type of response without turning into a little kid because of it, expect the rejection at first and many more until she finally accepts your act of good service and enjoy it while she enjoys it.

And offer it again after she accepts the first time, make it something to look forward to, don't talk alot either during these times.

I find dimming the lights and lighting some candles while making sure the ambient room temperature during massages makes them more enjoyable.

just my 0.02 cents.
This would NEVER have worked for me. When I felt that the R was suffering, that everything was falling apart, the LAST thing I wanted was sex and physical contact. It felt crass and oblivious and self-centered on H's part given the reality of where we were at.

Women (if we are going to generalize here) want to feel emotionally secure and connected and then physically connected...

Unless you have full confidence in yourself (which no one posting their sitches on here has) I would not touch that one. Maybe that is what you miss Robx, you can't just tell a guy who is flailing to do this stuff. You are taking a valid position but applying it to a context that it just usually does not fit into.

Keep pushing the physical and the W feels more like an object, less understood and de-valued.

Oh, and women know what a foot rub offer means...

That is just my opinion, don't want to argue about it.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 04:09 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway

You have no idea what she thinks. You don't possibly have enough information to know if that's true. And again, how does it show a man's "security" to initiate sex? Do you know how many insecure men thinks that's what makes them a man?


And since you're not her, you actually don't know what she thinks either. Neither of us do, I can admit to that and since I know you're not a mind reader, I can confidently say that you don't know what she thinks either.

As for initiating sex, being afraid to initiate sex is being insecure with yourself, being afraid to initiate sex because you're afraid your wife will reject you is being insecure.

I also know that being insecure around a woman usually isn't going to win you any points with her. Secure men are confident men and that's attractive. Insecure men are clingy men that seek approval and don't take alot of initiative in their lives and I know that isn't attractive.

So how am I doing so far? Not that your opinion matters but I'm just curious as to how you're going to blow up over this response. ;-)
Yes, don't lie about it...make sure she knows that you're secretly planning to manipulate her into giving in with techniques you learned from real men on the internet.
Posted By: Orich Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 04:12 PM
I think I am sorry I asked...
Quote:
Insecure men are clingy men that seek approval and don't take alot of initiative in their lives and I know that isn't attractive.


I think the point robx is that you can't make an insecure man secure by telling them initiating sex will make them appear more secure.

They have to get to a place where they feel secure and that requires detachment and at this point I agree that dating might help too. You just can't fake it and that is basically what you are proposing because it just isn't real.
Originally Posted By: robx
[
So how am I doing so far? Not that your opinion matters but I'm just curious as to how you're going to blow up over this response. ;-)


Of course my opinion doesn't matter...I'm just a woman. An emotional woman who "blows up" instead of a real man who is honest and direct and speaks his mind. Which wouldn't be a double standard or anything.

I couldn't possibly know what a woman is thinking better than you, of course...you, who don't even have to read people's threads to give them love advice. You don't have to bother to read a guy's sitch to know what would be appropriate in dealing with his woman. You know how to train pets. ;-)

Since none of this has anything to do with tristan's complicated situation between two human beings, I will let that be enough.

Apologies, tristan, for hijacking your thread. I don't think you sound insecure or are acting insecure...what was insecure was when you were jealous of your wife's promotion and took it out on her in a passive aggressive way. But you know that now and are moving forward.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 04:23 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
This would NEVER have worked for me. When I felt that the R was suffering, that everything was falling apart, the LAST thing I wanted was sex and physical contact. It felt crass and oblivious and self-centered on H's part given the reality of where we were at.

Women (if we are going to generalize here) want to feel emotionally secure and connected and then physically connected...

Unless you have full confidence in yourself (which no one posting their sitches on here has) I would not touch that one. Maybe that is what you miss Robx, you can't just tell a guy who is flailing to do this stuff. You are taking a valid position but applying it to a context that it just usually does not fit into.

Keep pushing the physical and the W feels more like an object, less understood and de-valued.

Oh, and women know what a foot rub offer means...

That is just my opinion, don't want to argue about it.


So am I reading any of this correctly,
men aren't allowed to ask for sex just for sex itself?

So when the WAW's are having physical affairs with OM that don't happen to include their actual husbands it's because these OM have connected to them on an emotional level and it isn't just about new & exciting sex?

So men should stop pursuing sex from their wives when their wives show disinterest in them?

Here's another question I'll throw out there:
If a man asks his wife for sex, purely for sex - is that a bad thing?

And another question:
How long should a spouse (man or woman) remain in a sexless marriage and lie say that sex isn't important to them?

Alot of married men associate love from their wives with the physical act of sex - so when their wives withhold sex, couldn't it be viewed as those wives not being emotionally supportive of their husbands? And since women tend to be more emotionally intuitive than men, this fact is known to them so when they withhold sex from their husbands they know that they are also withholding to some extent love as well and they know this hurts their men but continue to do so.

This whole emotional security issue is a vicious circle and we need to admit it. Women want to feel emotional security and connected and then physically connected while men require the physical connection to feel emotionally connected.

AAK, men require confidence in themselves and that is what I'm preaching here, nothing more, nothing less. The confidence to ask for what they want, the confidence to speak up when they're being disrespected, the confidence to stop doing things that don't yield productive results, the confidence to let go of the people that don't value them and the relationships they're in with them.

Some women will take a footrub as a footrub,
some will take it as something more,
if she accepts your offer of a footrub, don't complain and just enjoy the footrub for what it is - that is all I said.

That is MY opinion and I'm not arguing with anyone.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 04:29 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Originally Posted By: robx
[
So how am I doing so far? Not that your opinion matters but I'm just curious as to how you're going to blow up over this response. ;-)


Of course my opinion doesn't matter...I'm just a woman. An emotional woman who "blows up" instead of a real man who is honest and direct and speaks his mind. Which wouldn't be a double standard or anything.

I couldn't possibly know what a woman is thinking better than you, of course...you, who don't even have to read people's threads to give them love advice. You don't have to bother to read a guy's sitch to know what would be appropriate in dealing with his woman. You know how to train pets. ;-)

Since none of this has anything to do with tristan's complicated situation between two human beings, I will let that be enough.

Apologies, tristan, for hijacking your thread. I don't think you sound insecure or are acting insecure...what was insecure was when you were jealous of your wife's promotion and took it out on her in a passive aggressive way. But you know that now and are moving forward.



Since I never used the term "training pets",
it might be safe to assume you have experience in this ;-)

The success I have achieved in my own life has been from being deprogrammed from this "trained pet" mentality.

Breakaway if you happen to "blow up" as you put it, instead of communicating honestly & directly, then that is what you do and I'll leave you to your ways.

As for knowing what/how a woman thinks, you probably have more than a clue but... (and you knew there was going to be a but), you don't know what any specific man or woman is ACTUALLY thinking. If you can admit to just that much, it's quite possible that in this situation, you could be right and possibly I could be right - I can entertain both possibilities but it sounds like you can't.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 04:35 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Quote:
Insecure men are clingy men that seek approval and don't take alot of initiative in their lives and I know that isn't attractive.


I think the point robx is that you can't make an insecure man secure by telling them initiating sex will make them appear more secure.

They have to get to a place where they feel secure and that requires detachment and at this point I agree that dating might help too. You just can't fake it and that is basically what you are proposing because it just isn't real.



I agree you can't make anyone more secure by telling him to be more secure but you can get some measure of success by breaking free of the insecure mentality by actually doing something different from what you've currently been doing.

If sleeping next to his wife for several months in the same bed and not initiating sex has kept him "sex free", possibly taking initiative and speaking to his wife about it might get him somewhere different.

Doing the same thing over & over again but expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

I'm just saying do things differently if you want different results.

Apparently it's a novel idea around here LOL!
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 04:38 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
[quote=robx]
Quote:
I have chosen to be honest, direct and say what's on my mind and it's been working for me.


Being honest and direct doesn't make you correct.




First off I was replying to Orich since he popped into this thread.

No one said being honest & direct makes me correct, it does make me honest & direct though.

Since being honest & direct isn't your cup of tea breakaway, would it be more emotionally supportive of you & your feelings if I was indirect & lied to you - not sure what kind of point you were trying to make about the "honest & direct" point I made.

Do you want someone who is indirect & dishonest?

If so... WOW!
In short, robx, I think asking for sex just for sex is great...caveat- when a marriage is in tact.

This is about reality, not what should be.

Yes, having an affair and/or withholding sex are emotionally abusive behaviors. However, there is always something happening within the dynamic that is perpetuating it (and those two are VERY different things, affair or withholding).

We are not talking about what should be but what is. When a woman leaves the R emotionally, sex is usually not the way back in.

The confidence the men here need (the women too) is confidence that needs to be generated separate and apart from a spouse who has essentially demeaned and disrespected them. I joked with my H that he would want to have sex with me even if we were signing D papers and I was right. Sex is sex. It means almost nothing once the relationship is on the ropes. And women are particularly sensitive to this. Seeing as DB is about trying to salvage a M in which one person is actively leaving...unfortunately, fair or not, it is important to pay attention to what that spouse needs to feel secure or at least open to the possibility of a satisfying R.

I agree that optimally, sex should be without strings and yes, I want to be "taken" but not by someone who is failing to deliver in every other area.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 04:44 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
[quote=robx]
LOL. Oh, thank you, big masculine man for telling addled little me what the truth is about what women "really want." I can't admit I want a man to take me. Is that it? Thanks.

Quote:
And if we don't want to admit that physical affairs are happening and that women & men are cheating on their respective spouses with other people and having sex, the kind of sex that is initiated without the fear of rejection, the kind of sex which is lustful & passionate & physical vs. the "same old boring routine", than you're not admitting what is actually happening in real life.


Hmmm....well, been there, done that, got a scarlet letter t-shirt in real life. I'd say you have tunnel vision about what is going on in affairs.


Your response shows your insecurity if you know it or not.
Which is unfortunate for you, I'm not affected either way.

As far as "been there done that",
were you the one that initiated the affair or was it your spouse? Would being honest & direct have helped in that situation if one you weren't getting your needs met or was it more satisfying to experience the dishonesty & lying which accompanied the physical affair?



Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: breakaway
[quote=robx]
LOL. Oh, thank you, big masculine man for telling addled little me what the truth is about what women "really want." I can't admit I want a man to take me. Is that it? Thanks.

Quote:
And if we don't want to admit that physical affairs are happening and that women & men are cheating on their respective spouses with other people and having sex, the kind of sex that is initiated without the fear of rejection, the kind of sex which is lustful & passionate & physical vs. the "same old boring routine", than you're not admitting what is actually happening in real life.


Hmmm....well, been there, done that, got a scarlet letter t-shirt in real life. I'd say you have tunnel vision about what is going on in affairs.


Your response shows your insecurity if you know it or not.
Which is unfortunate for you, I'm not affected either way.

As far as "been there done that",
were you the one that initiated the affair or was it your spouse? Would being honest & direct have helped in that situation if one you weren't getting your needs met or was it more satisfying to experience the dishonesty & lying which accompanied the physical affair?





lmao....the entire last page is an example of your gaslighting, circular reasoning, word twisting, etc etc. (ex. saying I'm the one who says I blow up, when I was responding to you saying it first...nice try)

You want to know about me, you can read my threads. My life has been a living hell for the last several years as anyone who has followed my sitch knows. I made a bad situation worse, and I've said so. My point was that I have personal experience in what WAW's think and do and what verbally and emotionally abusive husbands think and do and what psychopathic online predators think and do. (One thing they do is read stupid websites like the Art Of Seduction to come up with ideas like how to massage your way into sex with someone who is resistant.)

+100 to everything aliveandkicking said...especially that we're talking about broken marriages here, not intact ones.

And Orich and whomeever else is reading, check for my updates later (I don't have time right now) because I can tell you guys about the hot sex my H HAS been getting since he started treating me like a human being instead of his personal possession.
Posted By: peace2u Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 05:02 PM
Tristan,

I'm here, if you need another ear. I am also dealing with a spouse with an undiagnosed mental issue. He's only being treated for anxiety/depression and has been all over the board with meds....so on that note - I feel for you. It's tough to watch and super tough to deal with.

As far as dealing with someone with this issue....there is no quick fix and that alone, throws a whole other twist into the ordeal.

Breakaway knows her stuff, aliveandkicking I agree with too.

We're here for you...
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: breakaway
[quote=robx]
LOL. Oh, thank you, big masculine man for telling addled little me what the truth is about what women "really want." I can't admit I want a man to take me. Is that it? Thanks.

Quote:
And if we don't want to admit that physical affairs are happening and that women & men are cheating on their respective spouses with other people and having sex, the kind of sex that is initiated without the fear of rejection, the kind of sex which is lustful & passionate & physical vs. the "same old boring routine", than you're not admitting what is actually happening in real life.


Hmmm....well, been there, done that, got a scarlet letter t-shirt in real life. I'd say you have tunnel vision about what is going on in affairs.


Your response shows your insecurity if you know it or not.
Which is unfortunate for you, I'm not affected either way.

As far as "been there done that",
were you the one that initiated the affair or was it your spouse? Would being honest & direct have helped in that situation if one you weren't getting your needs met or was it more satisfying to experience the dishonesty & lying which accompanied the physical affair?





lmao....the entire last page is an example of your gaslighting, circular reasoning, word twisting, etc etc. (ex. saying I'm the one who says I blow up, when I was responding to you saying it first...nice try)

You want to know about me, you can read my threads. My life has been a living hell for the last several years as anyone who has followed my sitch knows. I made a bad situation worse, and I've said so. My point was that I have personal experience in what WAW's think and do and what verbally and emotionally abusive husbands think and do and what psychopathic online predators think and do. (One thing they do is read stupid websites like the Art Of Seduction to come up with ideas like how to massage your way into sex with someone who is resistant.)

+100 to everything aliveandkicking said...especially that we're talking about broken marriages here, not intact ones.

And Orich and whomeever else is reading, check for my updates later (I don't have time right now) because I can tell you guys about the hot sex my H HAS been getting since he started treating me like a human being instead of his personal possession.



My goodness, you certainly have a bit of anger & steam to vent off today, LOL! I won't take it personally though because I really don't know you personally.

I may know a bit about emotionally & verbally abusive spouses, I won't say "husbands" as I believe that this description can be applied to both husbands & wives. As for the online predator label, I don't know who you would be referring to so I don't know why you even included that reference along with that website of which i have no knowledge or affiliation - since you have knowledge of these things, I'll leave it up to everyone else to make their own conclusions.

You certainly sound angry and if you aren't then you certainly have me confused.

As far as being a walk away wife, if that is your experience, I can't judge you for those actions or what you did to make your own situation worse - you aren't my wife, it isn't my life that was affected by your actions and it isn't my place to judge either way.

The main point I made regardless if you can see it or not was telling Orich that sleeping in the same bed as his wife for several months without having any physical contact with her for fear of "showing that he is pursuing" has yielded him.... NADA!!! That's right, he has several months of nothing to show for it because he is afraid that it shows pursuing. Heaven forbid that he shows interest in his wife of ALL PEOPLE! Heaven forbid that he shows sexual interest in his wife, that he is still attracted to her. You are right breakaway, he shouldn't offer her any type of indication that he is interested in his WIFE. He should continue sleeping in the same bed next to her for the next several months and possibly through divine intervention, his wife will just jump his bones and they'll be perfect & happy all over again.

Is he dating another woman? Is he sleeping with other women? Is he picking up women at clubs? Why you brought up that website is beyond me? I told Orich because he dropped by tristan's thread and asked a question and I told him to show his wife that he is physically attracted to her and to not take rejection personally and to offer her things like a backrub or footrub if she didn't want to have sex. But I guess that would be a bad thing, to show his wife he is interested in her because after several months of doing nothing and not pursuing, he has certainly bridged the emotional connection with his wife and they're doing great.

Yes heaven help us all that we can't be honest with the people we love and tell them we're physically attracted to them and want to be physically intimate with them.

Yes being honest & direct is a bad thing - you're right... it doesn't show confidence.

We should all be dishonest & lie to get what we want because look how well it's worked thus far, I mean the affairs were great while they lasted and we didn't mind lying to our spouses and sneaking around their backs to get our physical needs met because heaven forbid we communicated directly what we wanted from our spouses instead of assuming they're mind readers.

Well I won't play that game: I will be honest & direct along with being emotionally sensitive but I won't lie to get what I want because I know I can get what I want by being honest.

Breakaway, I'll be honest with you, you sound very bitter with your responses directed towards me, it's like I've touched a sensitive nerve, I don't know what your situation is and what happened in it to make you feel this way specifically to anonymous people on the internet but in my opinion, I don't think it's good and you have alot of personal issues to resolve. I still stand behind my ideas and posts to Orich, several months of doing nothing have yielded nothing in his situation and it's time to change it up to get different results and it's quite possible she wants him to show interest in her but she doesn't want to tell him that, maybe she wants him to discover that, maybe she wants to be wanted and currently isn't getting anything like that from orich.

FYI - I actually tried to read some of your posts but the links in your signature seem to be broken, I can't get to the original post you originally submitted which has your original situation and what happened.

Tristan my apologies for hijacking your thread here, this seems to have turned into a playground for a few of us and I'm sure you didn't get anything productive out of our posts.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 05:41 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
In short, robx, I think asking for sex just for sex is great...caveat- when a marriage is in tact.

This is about reality, not what should be.

Yes, having an affair and/or withholding sex are emotionally abusive behaviors. However, there is always something happening within the dynamic that is perpetuating it (and those two are VERY different things, affair or withholding).

We are not talking about what should be but what is. When a woman leaves the R emotionally, sex is usually not the way back in.

The confidence the men here need (the women too) is confidence that needs to be generated separate and apart from a spouse who has essentially demeaned and disrespected them. I joked with my H that he would want to have sex with me even if we were signing D papers and I was right. Sex is sex. It means almost nothing once the relationship is on the ropes. And women are particularly sensitive to this. Seeing as DB is about trying to salvage a M in which one person is actively leaving...unfortunately, fair or not, it is important to pay attention to what that spouse needs to feel secure or at least open to the possibility of a satisfying R.

I agree that optimally, sex should be without strings and yes, I want to be "taken" but not by someone who is failing to deliver in every other area.




Thank you for your response, you hit the nail right on the head - I couldn't agree more.
Quote:
Thank you for your response, you hit the nail right on the head - I couldn't agree more.


Cool, I love that this conversation got somewhere. If we (men & women) don't recognize we speak different languages and stretch ourselves to understand each other, we're just wasting words here.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 06:26 PM
Journaling:

Saturday:
Made the 4 hour trip with D3 to my grandfather's birthday party. D3 was amazingly good, although she did vomit in the car one the way down). W is right when she says "They (the girls) are much easier to handle when they are apart." Accidently left cell phone in W's purse from date night before. I guess she didn't realize that and tried calling several times and ended up calling my dad to try to talk to me, we had already left the party and were on the way when she called. When we got home (11PM), I saw that the light in our bedroom light was on. By the time I had gotten up to the room, the light was off and she was asleep (or at least acting) on her far side of the bed. She woke up when I got to bed and asked how the party was. She seemed distant. She said that she called a few times to see how we were doing. I told her that I had left the phone in her purse and thought she would have figured it out. I guess not. Anyway she seemed to warm up a little after she realized what happened.

Going to sleep left an awkward moment:
Me: "This is wierd"
W: "It is awkward"
M: "I'm not sure what you want me to be."
W: "How about a friend"
M: "OK... Do you want me to kiss you goodnight?"
W: "What about on the cheek."

I kiss her on the cheek and we hug.

W: "May I have your back?"

We cuddle and go to sleep.

Sunday:
As always, it is the children that wake us up on the weekend. My wife gets out of bed first because it is she that the girls are pulling on. However, I force myself up shortly there after. We spend the morning making pancakes for her mom and the girls; it is somewhat of a ritual to do this on the weekend. Chocolate Chip for the girls; Honey-wheat for us and MIL. We then got ready and went to church. We came home, W & MIL put some lunch together as I mowed the lawn. W & MIL put together quite a lunch: Hamburgers, Pasta salad, Fruit salad, Creamed Rice, Bread and Rolls. Lunch was relaxing and W told me to play with girls while she cleaned up. I painted with D5 while D3 did her own thing.

After dishes, W asked if I wanted to go out and get some items to do some gardening. We run to get some mulch and new flowers and spend much of the rest of the day gardening. Afterward, we were both pretty hot so she suggest jumping in the baby-pool with the girls. A water fight pursues which was a ton of fun for the entire family. Afterward, we are drying off and cleaning up in our room. She walks by and I kiss her on the head. "Sorry, I couldn't help it", I say as I touch her cheek to look at me. We have a gentle kiss until D3 says "Mommy, daddy. Stop kissing." As we pull away, she says "I love you so much." "I love you a lot too." my reply.

She suggests that we have movie night. So I take D5 to rent a movie for the night (Coraline). Ended up that W made us turn it off before it ended because she thought it was too disturbing for the girls. We put the girls to bed and went to our room to settle down. She sees me pulling out the foot lotion.

Knowing that it is for she says "Oh, thank you".
"No problem", I reply

While lotioning her feet, she mentions that her hamstrings are sore from all the gardening she did this weekend.
M: "Would you like me to massage them too?"
W: "No, that's alright."
M: "You can leave you pajama bottoms on."
W: "No, I didn't mean it like that. I just figured you were tired."
M: "No, I'm fine."
W: "Sure, OK then."

I get the body lotion and she helps me with the pajama bottoms and lies down on her stomach. I spend probably 20 minutes on her calves and quads. OK, I am a guy and ready to go on at this point. I ask if she would like me to take the rest off. She says "No, thats OK".

I lie down next to her and continue rubbing her back. I think she fell asleep. When I stop, she opens her eyes and says "I know I love you." She puts on her pajama bottoms and gets under the covers.
W: "Thank you. I had a wonderful day."
M: "I did too."
W: "I had a wonderful weekend"
M: "They always are."
W: "I know. That is why I think if I just disappeared and did nothing, I could be happy."

I think that she meant if she stopped working and never saw OM again, she would be happy. But I did not ask for clarification because I didn't want any R talk.

w: "Good night"
M: "Good night"

We kiss gently on the lips again.

Monday:
We wake up. She pours my coffee and we go sit outside for a while. She tells me that her MIL told her that she was sexually assaulted by a doctor during an examination when she was 21 (MIL knows nothing of W's rape). I say something that it is crazy that there are that many creeps out there that can do such things. Among other things, she says "It is men in power who think they can use it to do anything. That women are there to serve them. They use it to control women". She said that she thinks she is going to tell the girls her own story when they go to HS just so they can know what can happen. She says "that incident ruined my life". I try to say that her that her life was not "ruined" only "impacted". She says "No it has ruined my relationship with you, everything."

Later, we are standing in front of the window looking at the gardening we had completed the day before. I am behind her with my arms wrapped around her.
W: "It looks so nice. Thank you for your help."
M: "No problem."
W: "I feel so close to you right now."

Standing in front of the car before she is about to leave for work she asks for a hug. I give her a hug. She kisses me on the cheek, I kiss her on the lips and she responds in kind. She hugs me tighter, I can feel her heart pounding. She is headed back to work where she will interact OM ("snake") for another week. She grabs my hand and holds it tightly before sliding in her car to go. Nothing was said, we both knew what it was all about.
Posted By: Orich Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 06:29 PM
I am jealous.
Posted By: Orich Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 06:30 PM
What I mean is, good for you. I hope you have many more weekends like this, it sounds like you are on your way to a good result.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 06:59 PM
Wow. I had just caught up on everything. Obviously, if you read my whole thread; my wife does not need to be "taken". And although, I believe this can be done in a respectful way. Way too many men take this mentallity to the extreme. I know way too many women's lives have been devastated by men's behavior that believe this perverted ideal that "Women want it."

And now something that happened 20 years ago is not only impacting my W's life; but it is impacting mine and our 2 lovely daughter's lives. One man's desire for a few seconds of pleasure has far reaching effects. However, I am sure a beast like that would not care.

Now robx. I am not comparing you to my wife's rapist. But had you know her entire life's story, I think you would agree with me that "being taken" is definitely not what she needs.

By the way, although sometimes my massages do become sexual; I never assume it. I give W foot massages for a couple of reasons:
1. because she will often put on the foot lotion herself anyway.
2. It is a good time to have a conversation.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 07:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Orich
What I mean is, good for you. I hope you have many more weekends like this, it sounds like you are on your way to a good result.


Hi Orich.

My marriage is a roller-coaster. It was just last Thursday she said that we needed to seperate and I am sure she will see OM this week. This is no picnic.
Posted By: Orich Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 07:06 PM
Tristan,
I would add about the foot massage, I would often brush my w's hair in bed before we went to sleep. Sometimes it would lead to sex, but not always. I was fine with the times it didn't. For one thing, it felt good for her, and I love her, so why not do something unselfish for her? Also, it was time we were alone together completely apart from anything else. We would either have conversations or even just watch TV. We were together. Finally, for me it was gratifying because even if we didn't have sex afterwards, it was a half hour or so of time I had just touching her hair and her body. Two things which I miss very much now.
The times it led to sex were fantastic, of course. But the times it didn't were still great because it was just time for us.
Tristan, is she in therapy? With an issue like this, you are dealing with a perpetual minefield..,

I think we women do want to be taken and it has no correlation to rape, it is a way of ineracting sexually with consent.

Until your wife gets help, you and OM are just players in some kind of perverse reinactment...

I think Imago therapy would be awesome for you two since you are obviously willing to do the work. Maybe you guys will get there.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 07:16 PM
I am sorry Orich. All I can say is do your best to do what you can for her. At some point she has to see that you are trying really hard. My W says this is the only reason that she didn't leave earlier this year.
Posted By: Orich Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 07:28 PM
I think my W sees this, even when we were at our lowest point when she declared our M over, said she contacted a lawyer, told her family, even argued about the house and custody, she never pulled the trigger. Now she is going to Retrouvaille with me (after earlier saying no way) so, I have some hope.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 07:28 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Tristan, is she in therapy? With an issue like this, you are dealing with a perpetual minefield..,

I think Imago therapy would be awesome for you two since you are obviously willing to do the work. Maybe you guys will get there.



Hi aliveandkicking,

She has an IC and a psych. The psych is still trying to get the right set of meds together for her bi-polar disorder. She sees him again this week.

I had not heard of Imago therapy; but just looked it up. It looks like it may fit. I will see if there is someone around here that practices it.

Thank you.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 07:32 PM
Hi, Tristan,

As an assault survivor myself, I would like to thank you for the depth of sensitivity in your interactions with your wife.

Cheers,

Dia
The beauty of imago is that your partner really helps you heal and you see how you are perfectly suited to do this life together...she is very lucky to have you.

My H and I went to a long imago session and a path was laud out for us and he even admitted it helped but subsequently he said it is not fir him (doesn't want to do the work).

It is powerful stuff. You can get "Getting the love you want" by Harville Hendrix to get a better understanding.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 09:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Dia
Hi, Tristan,

As an assault survivor myself


Thank you Dia,

As I said, I know way too many women that have had to deal with this. And all have been from men they trusted.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 09:56 PM
OK. It is time for me to make some goals. The ones I had originally made for R are outdated:

1. I think I need to convince W to go to MC again.

I am up in the air on other goals. I would like to make a goal with her lessening her reliance on OM. However, I have no idea what kind of goal I could state that would be measurable.

I checked the phone records and noticed she called OM and talked for 18 minutes shortly after asking for a hug leaving the driveway this morning. Is this normal behavior for someone having an affair? It is baffling to me how one can maintain this sort of lifestyle. This cycle does need to stop, I know. But I am not sure a 180 is the right way to deal. Is it?
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 10:04 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
OK. It is time for me to make some goals. The ones I had originally made for R are outdated:

1. I think I need to convince W to go to MC again.

I am up in the air on other goals. I would like to make a goal with her lessening her reliance on OM. However, I have no idea what kind of goal I could state that would be measurable.

I checked the phone records and noticed she called OM and talked for 18 minutes shortly after asking for a hug leaving the driveway this morning. Is this normal behavior for someone having an affair? It is baffling to me how one can maintain this sort of lifestyle. This cycle does need to stop, I know. But I am not sure a 180 is the right way to deal. Is it?


I'm assuming she trusts you Tristan, it sounds that way the update you recently posted.

Has she ever explained to you how she rationalizes seeing another man, someone she doesn't know as well and couldn't possibly trust as much as she trust you, someone who up until recently she would have considered a stranger and definitely not someone she could trust as much as you.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 10:05 PM
Hi, Tristan,

Devil's advocate here - are you sure that you setting goals for her is the best approach? Setting goals only for yourself is more controllable, no?

I know that many here are advocating a hardcore ultimatum regarding contact with OM, but here's a different approach. If you've decided not to press that issue at present, perhaps you should set a goal for yourself to not ask her, not check phone records etc. for a certain time period - 30 days, two weeks, etc. This may well be good for *you*, and if she's been feeling pressure to stop the contact, it might be driving her to pursue said contact.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 10:09 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
OK. It is time for me to make some goals. The ones I had originally made for R are outdated:

1. I think I need to convince W to go to MC again.

I am up in the air on other goals. I would like to make a goal with her lessening her reliance on OM. However, I have no idea what kind of goal I could state that would be measurable.

I checked the phone records and noticed she called OM and talked for 18 minutes shortly after asking for a hug leaving the driveway this morning. Is this normal behavior for someone having an affair? It is baffling to me how one can maintain this sort of lifestyle. This cycle does need to stop, I know. But I am not sure a 180 is the right way to deal. Is it?


Boundaries, they need to be set up in place to protect you as much they protect her.

This sounds very much like an open relationship and in the end that has to be the question you ask yourself, do you tolerate an open relationship, can you share her with someone else.

Regardless of her past history and the sexual assault she suffered at the hands of someone I'm assuming she trusted, She can't use that as a crutch for her actions and tell everyone including you that she is confused and doesn't know who to pick and continue to live life like this with you by her side. Currently it sounds very much that she uses this as a crutch and I could be wrong but it sounds like she is being enabled to do so.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 10:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Dia
Hi, Tristan,

If you've decided not to press that issue at present, perhaps you should set a goal for yourself to not ask her, not check phone records etc. for a certain time period - 30 days, two weeks, etc.


Hi Dia,

I like it. Thank you. I now have 2 goals:

1. I think I need to convince W to go to MC again.
2. Not to check phone records for 2 weeks.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/17/09 10:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Robx
Boundaries, they need to be set up in place to protect you as much they protect her.

This sounds very much like an open relationship and in the end that has to be the question you ask yourself, do you tolerate an open relationship, can you share her with someone else.

Regardless of her past history and the sexual assault she suffered at the hands of someone I'm assuming she trusted, She can't use that as a crutch for her actions and tell everyone including you that she is confused and doesn't know who to pick and continue to live life like this with you by her side. Currently it sounds very much that she uses this as a crutch and I could be wrong but it sounds like she is being enabled to do so.




Hi Robx,

I agree with you. This is why I struggle with this issue. I think I am waiting to see if the psych determines she is stable later this week and leaves her meds where they are. If so, I think I will seriously consider this.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 01:12 AM
Hi Tristan,
one thing to remember,
if setting boundaries with how people can treat you is wrong then expect people to walk all over you.

Would you let people mistreat your children and talk poorly to them and walk all over them, bully them and make them feel bad?

Of course not.

If the situation was reversed, do you really believe your wife would tolerate you seeing another woman and then coming home to have a friendly loving relationship with her? I'm sure she would give you a size 8 up the old address and let you know that if you can't decide which woman to be with, that she would make the decision for you and kindly kick your a$$ out on to the street because if you acted like that to her, it would be grossly disrespectful.

If you aren't looking out for what's in your best interests and your wife doesn't appear to be taking care of that either, who is currently do this job?

I'm not rushing you into making a decision, in the end it's your life that you're living and the consequences of your actions are experienced by you not me or anyone else on this forum.

I can sympathize with you, it doesn't feel right that we should set boundaries with the people we love, you would think it would be understood that they should treat you with love, care & respect and vice versa. But what should be and what actually is tend to be 2 different things.

I guess you have to find your own threshold of tolerance, how long you tolerate her seeing the OM and you continue to be loving towards her, hoping she'll pick you instead of him. Personally speaking, I would step out of the equation altogether, instead of proving to her that you are better than him (which in the end kind of assumes that you don't really know or feel confident that you are better than the OM and have to do things to prove it to yourself and her), I wouldn't compete at all. I would just say "Choose, you've had enough time to indulge yourself in this process and I've had enough, you either choose or I'll make the choice for you."

And if she can't make the choice, as unfortunate as it sounds, you know what the decision is at that point either that or continue being number 2 in her life (if you even rank that high).

Never compete with the other man, ever.
When you choose not to compete you communicate that you don't need to and that she is free to live life elsewhere... immediately. When you remove yourself from the equation, another thing happens, the excitement of the affair tends to drop down quite a few notches, the thrill of cheating on a spouse, the inexplicable excitement that is derived from doing something wrong is no longer as high as it once was. How could it be? You're no longer the LBS waiting for his wife to return, you're now the WAS, you've taken back control of the relationship because you now choose not to be part of it and this is key because all along this has been her decision, she has controlled this and not many people tend to understand the dynamic of power in this type of relationship where one spouse is actively cheating on another.

Think about it, you both made a decision to date, see each other, eventually get married, buy a home, car(s), possessions, have children, etc. These were all decisions you were making jointly together. You shared these decisions, you shared this control. When she chose to have an affair and see the OM, she made this decision without you & your consent, she took control of the relationship and has maintained control of this relationship ever since - proof of this? She isn't the one on this forum asking for advice on how to win back her spouse. She isn't going the extra mile to be the perfect spouse, she isn't 100% devoted to your marriage. She has 2 "toys" to play with, the old familiar one (you), the new exciting one (OM). If she isn't forced to make a decision, what would cause her to stop playing with either of her toys? The longer this situation goes on, the harder it will be to make a decision.

I don't know how long you & your wife have been playing out this story of yours but if several months have passed already, that is far too long in my opinion. Separations are not wine, they don't get better with age and if a spouse is permitted the luxury of having a lover outside the marriage without any interference from your end, what would cause them to stop? They are getting different needs met by different partners and it becomes a very ideal situation: exciting, new & different at one end of the spectrum and safe, secure and backup plan at the other end if the first one doesn't work out.

Ask her to make a decision, if you need to, give her a few days at most, after that, make the decision for her knowing that you love & respect yourself enough to not be disrespected by your spouse and you love her enough to let her be happy with someone else since she can't feel that way with you.

Simple & difficult at the same time, I don't envy your position but I also know it's an opportunity for incredible growth on your part and the example you will set and the life you will live afterwards for respecting yourself in such a way will set a standard for your children to emulate - children learn more from the actions of their parents than from any words that are spoken to them, what would you tell them if they were in this situation and it wasn't you?

I previously hijacked your thread momentarily when breakaway and I had opposing views with what Orich should do in his situation and I didn't want comment on your thread without participating in your discussion.

Good luck bro, I'm rooting for you either way!
Originally Posted By: robx
As for the online predator label, I don't know who you would be referring to so I don't know why you even included that reference along with that website of which i have no knowledge or affiliation - since you have knowledge of these things, I'll leave it up to everyone else to make their own conclusions.



To be clear..that wasn't directed at you. It didn't occur to me til later that you must have thought that, since we are online here.

Again, my point was that I DO have insight into what tristan's wife might be feeling, and further, what tristan might be feeling as my spouse can be very unstable. So I have elements of both sides. The OM in my situation was the online predator. So I have experience with predators. I think tristan's wife is being manipulated because she was very vulnerable at the time she met him. That's what they look for. I do not think she was looking for a toy, or someone new and exciting, or is playing games. I think she is genuinely confused, and has serious trauma issues to contend with while trying to figure out what to do about her marriage.

I rarely comment on anyone's sitches anymore as the whole tenor of this board changed in the last six months, and I have had to do a lot of healing away from here.

Anything else can be said can be on my thread, not his.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 04:16 AM
I would call someone an "online predator" if they're an adult trying to talk to little kids in chat rooms for the purpose of abusing them in some form or another - that is probably the accepted definition of "online predator" by most law enforcement agencies that police this kind of thing.

Guys who practice skills they learn on line on women may not have the best intentions but I have to believe they are only successful with women that want this type of thing to happen consciously or subconsciously - and I'll leave it at that. I don't think that these guys would be successful on women that are in happy loving relationships and aren't looking to cheat on their spouses. Blaming them for whatever they're successful at doing is just taking the responsibility away from the women they're "successful" with. We all have free will and we all make decisions to exercise that free will - no one can force you to do anything you don't really want to do.

Example: Left behind husband at home calls walk away wife on the phone and tells her to come home now and end this nonsense, we're married and you're supposed to love me. Result: walk away wife would never come home because of this, she doesn't want to.

Example: Guy who learns special pick up skills on line meets up with walk away wife at a club, talks to her, she likes the attention of this other man, he tells her to come home with him for an evening of no strings attached sex. Result: if walk away wife goes home with this guy she met at the club, it's because she wanted to, not because she was hypnotized into doing so, believing anything else is ridiculous.

If those pickup skills were really that powerful, every left behind spouse on this site should learn them and then convince their walk away spouses to come back home & love them and be happily married again.

If only it were that simple!
Walk away wives aren't IN happy loving relationships. That's the point isn't it? Did you read DB or DR? The point is that they've talked and cried and screamed and talked some more and their H's don't listen. When they say, well I don't love you anymore and I want a divorce, then they listen. Well big deal.

WAW's feel rejected, devalued, and uncared for. I have yet to know any woman personally that got involved with another man that was looking for new and exciting sex. You seem to think EVERYTHING is about sex. They were looking for someone to care about them. I wasn't even LOOKING for it...I was friends with this person, online, and it eventually became more than friends as we got deeply emotionally involved. I was naive enough to think it was "safe" since it was anonymous at the beginning, and I had someone safe to talk to. So I let my guard down and then it snowballed from there. It was only later that I found out all this was calculated on his part. I take responsibility for my part, but I was also carefully made to feel emotionally dependent on this guy. I met him in person a grand total of one time, and by then I'd decided to divorce.

All of our situations have common themes, but they are not all the same. BTW, I am the one doing all the work to save my marriage.
Originally Posted By: robx


Example: Left behind husband at home calls walk away wife on the phone and tells her to come home now and end this nonsense, we're married and you're supposed to love me. Result: walk away wife would never come home because of this, she doesn't want to.


No, she's not your mommy. She's not "supposed to" love you like your mommy does, no matter what you do. Love for an equal partner can die when it's neglected or pissed on. She's also not your child that you can order to end this "nonsense" and come home.

Quote:
Example: Guy who learns special pick up skills on line meets up with walk away wife at a club, talks to her, she likes the attention of this other man, he tells her to come home with him for an evening of no strings attached sex. Result: if walk away wife goes home with this guy she met at the club, it's because she wanted to, not because she was hypnotized into doing so, believing anything else is ridiculous.
You're taking things out of context. I'm talking about an attitude of MANIPULATION. I'm not talking about hypnotizing drunk girls in clubs.

Quote:
If those pickup skills were really that powerful, every left behind spouse on this site should learn them and then convince their walk away spouses to come back home & love them and be happily married again.
I'm not talking about "pickup skills," I'm talking about pretending to be loving, caring and compassionate to lure a woman. You know what, though, you're on to something, if LBH's talked to their wives the way OM's do, they would be happily married. You're a hypocrite, anyway, as you were giving lengthy details on how to gradually coax a woman into sex while pretending you're not.

Quote:
If only it were that simple!

If only it were.
Posted By: Deep Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 10:41 AM
I just have to butt in with my 2 cents worth smile.

Whatever leads to the breakdown in a M, it's hard not to feel hard done by the sinking to the level of allowing an OP in. WASs may feel unloved, but there would be some cases where they are equally unloving. It's pointless trying to measure or argue who was in more pain, but (almost) no amount of pain justifies cheating.

Yeah, I could have been a better husband too. I went into a bit of a funk when I lost a (senior and relatively high paying) job years ago. I could not bring myself to take up "lesser" jobs with lower titles or that paid me less. I tried my hand at business, and my W was right in that I could not really focus on doing it properly. Needless to say, our savings started to shrink. But I felt almost no guilt since I had 2 severance payouts that would have far surpassed the average wage for the 2+ years I spent feeling sorry for myself. I did not appreciate how much it mattered to W for too long, and in the end her patience broke.

Balanced against that was my own resentment over our sex life. We went through 3 periods of no sex for at least 12-18 months, and I just tried to respect her lack of drive for it. I did blow up once, and she broke down and pleaded for understanding. And I left it at that. Could I have twisted this into some warped justification for an A at some point - even if only for the sex? Well, probably a lot more logically than my W could have justified what happened.

OPs are almost always manipulative, and snakes indeed. I saw threads recently on the script for WAWs. Maybe we should do one for OPs too, Tristan certainly noted a gem earlier in this thread. I just can't resist adding this one from W's OM when they started off: "No matter what happens, we must never hurt the children."

What a classic. What a smart prepared back door if the going gets too hot. I'm sure the kids would never have been in remote possibiity of being hurt by two married people choosing to have an A with each other.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 02:17 PM
Journaling:

Monday:
W and I had no contact during work hours. I arove home at 7 a little later than normal. W was not there; MIL was watching children. I asked MIL if she knew where W was (she is normally home by 6); she said that she called and would be out shopping. In my gut, things did not feel right and the anxiety began to build up. I played with the children for about a half hour. And then left to walk over and see a mutual friend of ours who knows almost our story.

Friend X is very spiritual and a great person. The fact that both my W and I trust her makes her a great person for support. She had told me to stop by to talk a couple of weeks back. Tonight was a good night to do that. It was good to pass the time. W stopped in at 8:15 and seemed upset. X asked her to sit down, she did. X finished a disturbing story from her childhood. At this point, it felt awkward and I said "I just came over to talk. I hope you don't mind".

W replied, "No I don't mind. She knows everything. I need to go, I am worried about mom." She left rather abruptly.

Feeling the tension in the air. X and I finished the conversation and I left to go back home. When I arrived, 2 girls were upstairs crying. I went up to see them both clinging to W. They were upset that both of us were gone for much longer than normal without letting them know. W was about to explode. I did my best to try to settle them down, but was not all that successful in the beginning. Finally, we got them calmed down and to bed. The one statement I remember W pleading with D5 "D5 please don't do this. You are really hurting me. Please don't do this. You are hurting mommy."

After the ordeal with children. I could tell that W was extremely irritated.
M: "Are you OK"
W: "I am fine, just tired. I am running a training tomorrow and need to be at work by 8:30. I need to run by Dunkin Donuts and store to get supplies for training. This whole training is just me."
M: "You feel overwhelmed?"
W: "Yes. That is probably it, I am overwhelmed. Would you like some icecream?"
She is distant, not touching. Exact opposite from the weekend. We sit down with the dessert, she seems to be warming up and getting in a better mood as we eat. I mention that I read that it can sometimes be good for spouses to go to the psych appointment and ask if she would

like me to join her?"
W: "Why do you not think that I am telling him everything?"
M: "No, I just read that it may help me get a better understanding of what you are going though."
W: "Oh, OK. No I think I am OK. But thank you for taking interest. Want to see the new outfit I got?"
M: "Sure."

Upstairs, she models her new outfit which is very nice (sexy). She asks "You think I can wear this when we go dancing again?"

M: "It's perfect."

After her modelling routine. We get ready for and into bed rather quickly. It was obvious she did not want to talk much. She gives me a quick kiss and nestles her head on my chest to go to sleep. Before we go to sleep, I ask her if she has ever heard of Imago therapy. She is a social worker, so there was a decent chance that she would have; but she hadn't. I tried to explain the little I knew about it. She said it sounded interesting.

Tuesday:
I wake W up at 6:30. She wraps her arms around me and stays in bed for several more minutes. After getting up, she hurries to get ready and out the door for work. She comes into the bathroom to give me a kiss. I ask for a hug, I know I shouldn't have (moment of weakness), she gives me a tight and rather long one. Off to work she runs.

I made a mistake this morning and mentione OM to MIL. W told me that MIL already knew, I guess not. MIL was a little taken back by it. She said she knew of him last year, but W told him that it was done. She told me that she was sorry.
These are the last comments I'm going to make about this subject, because I've done too much work to detach and move on and get emotionally healthy to keep rehashing this.
Originally Posted By: Deep
I just have to butt in with my 2 cents worth smile.
Hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Quote:
Whatever leads to the breakdown in a M, it's hard not to feel hard done by the sinking to the level of allowing an OP in. WASs may feel unloved, but there would be some cases where they are equally unloving. It's pointless trying to measure or argue who was in more pain, but (almost) no amount of pain justifies cheating.

I want to make the point that WAS's cannot all be painted with one brush. I have 6 full threads detailing the verbal and emotional abuse I've been through with my spouse...I didn't just feel unappreciated, I'd been systematically torn down day by day by day. I turned myself inside out trying to please a man who couldn't be pleased. I have no desire to explain it all again, or "justify" my actions. I don't have to justify myself.

I'll tell you I was a sitting duck for someone to come into my life and tell me I was a beautiful person, that I was special, that I mattered, that I deserved to be treated well. Little did I know that this a lovely game he likes to play, getting high off getting hurt women to eat out of his hand and tell him how wonderful HE is. Til he finds the next one.

I would be willing to bet the MAJORITY opinion here is that I deserved it. Well, I didn't deserve it. I didn't deserve to be so mistreated by one person, that vowed to cherish and honor and love me as Christ loved the church, (but those wedding vows are just the minor ones, those can be broken 68 million times without any consequences), that I fell prey to some vulture who took advantage of my pain for his own profit.

All of this experience has brought me to seek deep spiritual healing, and I've been blessed to find it. I made mistakes when I was broken. I make better decisions as I heal.

But WAW's are usually characterized as cartoonish figures that are evil, selfish, cake-eating whores looking for fun and excitement, all while being in control of their H's, with his "nuts in their pocket." Some probably are. In my case that's a crock of sh!t. I know it's easier to just say that then look at the intricacies of the situation.

And really, this morning, I was thinking I don't really care what anyone else thinks about it anyway. I just know other people are out there reading, some probably too ashamed to tell their stories or seek any kind of help, because they'll be told they deserve what they got. An abuser's favorite comment, btw.

Good luck with your situation, tristan. I hope the link I gave you helped out. A good counselor will help you a lot, and help you with your children, whatever happens next in your life. You sound like the type of person who will be able to find your way.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 02:50 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Good luck with your situation, tristan. I hope the link I gave you helped out. A good counselor will help you a lot, and help you with your children, whatever happens next in your life. You sound like the type of person who will be able to find your way.


Hi breakaway,

I am sorry to hear that you will be leaving this thread, but understand. I have really appreciated your advice. I feel my wife feels much the way you did. Which is why I am having a hard time figuring out how to deal with our situation. The simple formula does not seem to fit here. The solution may need to be the same, but it is much harder to kick someone out that you already see as a victim of so much.

Thank you for your advice. I greatly appreciate and respect it.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 03:08 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
...I'm not talking about "pickup skills," I'm talking about pretending to be loving, caring and compassionate to lure a woman. You know what, though, you're on to something, if LBH's talked to their wives the way OM's do, they would be happily married. You're a hypocrite, anyway, as you were giving lengthy details on how to gradually coax a woman into sex while pretending you're not.


The only hypocrite here is you.
If you communicated, really communicated to your husband instead of just assuming he read minds, you could have told him "Look husband, I am feeling unloved because you don't show me that you are loving, caring and compassionate to me. I need these things to feel loved and to maintain a loving attitude towards you. Without these things, I will become angry & distant towards you and will contemplate leaving and finding someone else who can provide those things for me."

But let me guess breakaway, you shouldn't have to communicate those things to your husband because he should already know. Who is setting the double standard now? As for your husband or any husband, he's not your daddy, he's not "supposed to" love you like your daddy does, no matter what you do and it's quite possible the distance created between the two of you withered & died because you also neglected and/or pissed on it because you didn't want to communicate your needs, you wanted him to just know just like that "pick up" guy and his manipulative ways knew and it brings us back full circle to the point that you wanted to be "taken", you wanted specific words spoken to you in such a way so that you could feel the emotion of love and then this "pick up" guy had his way with you and once he did he had no further use for you.

So instead of communicating your needs which would be the mature thing to do, instead of assuming your husband is a mind reader and should know those things, you gave up on him and his uncaring ways and found someone with an "attitude of manipulation" who saw that you were waiting for someone to do those things for you without you having to tell them to do those things which then allowed him to take advantage of you in a moment of weakness.

The true hypocrite is the person who says that such things happened in their lives and it was out of their control, they were "manipulated" by someone who said & did the right things and in doing so you release yourself from the responsibility of your life.

As for my telling Orich to offer massages. Providing footrubs, handrubs, backrubs, they're all considered "touch charges" and done in a loving manner go a long way to recreating a bonding process between spouses who don't engage in regular touching during a period of time when they're separating, not talking regularly to each other. I still stand by it, touching in either a sexual or non-sexual way does bond the people involved, doing it regularly improves that bonding experience. If wanting to touch our spouses because we derive pleasure from it is a manipulative thing then we're all guilty of it.

Breakaway you're angry and that's unfortunate but using me as a punching bag won't work. Plus the connotation of your responses all tend to have a hidden "me, me, me" flavor to them. If you want attention like I mentioned before, communicate with your husband and let him know exactly what you want. I think I've been rewarding your crap behavior with my replies & attention long enough so this will stop now from my end because I say it will. You continue to do what you like. You don't like my advice or my methods, good for you. I tend to be results oriented and I like what works but you can continue focusing on things that don't work because that is your choice.

Thank you & Good Day.
Posted By: pigskin Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 03:28 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Good luck with your situation, tristan. I hope the link I gave you helped out. A good counselor will help you a lot, and help you with your children, whatever happens next in your life. You sound like the type of person who will be able to find your way.


Hi breakaway,

I am sorry to hear that you will be leaving this thread, but understand. I have really appreciated your advice. I feel my wife feels much the way you did. Which is why I am having a hard time figuring out how to deal with our situation. The simple formula does not seem to fit here. The solution may need to be the same, but it is much harder to kick someone out that you already see as a victim of so much.

Thank you for your advice. I greatly appreciate and respect it.


Tristan, I am in a pretty similar situation as you, and have commented before on other threads about how such a fine line needs to be walked with regard to EAs. There is no one size fits all solution in my opinion because although scripts appear similar, each person involved is unique and brings different past experiences into the present.

You may see what appears to be conflicting advice sometimes between this site and the DR book. Detachment is advised a lot, but in my situation, loving detachment was what I had done my entire marriage. My family was loving but not demonstrative, and I was the same way. So detachment appeared to my wife as "more of the same" and had a negative affect. I'm NOT saying detachment doesn't work, just that you have to weigh your own situation and make sure it is appropriate.

I would love for there to be some action I could take to force the end of my wife's EA. But kicking her to the curb to make up her mind for her does not seem to be a good option for me right now. She has depression and we have 3 kids who love her.

It's hard as hell, especially when she engages in email conversations with the OM on our family vacation, and even on our anniversary. But she knows I've changed, and it is up to me to keep up the changes to ensure she can have faith they are permanent.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 03:30 PM
HI, Tristan,

I know you have a whole array of professionals helping you with your sitch, but FWIW I am not pressing the issue of H's OW and my DB Coach approves of the strategy. Granted, our sitches are different. H's is not a hot affair with frequent calls, texts or IMs. She lives about 2k miles away and they see each other maybe 4x/year. My take was to act like she doesn't exist and here's my current rationale:

1) If things between H and I continue to strengthen, she will very naturally drop away (meaning H will break up with her).

2) If H goes through with the D (nothing is filed yet), well - it won't matter.

Additionally, H and I did not have a strong connection at all when I started this work, so if I had pushed an ultimatum, I'd have lost, hands down. When the connection is stronger, I will take action if it is needed at that time.

Here's my bigggest concern with your sitch - if OM is really the creepy sexual predator he sounds like, there *is* something of an unholy attraction your W may be under. It will be hard for her to see and even harder to break. She would most likely defend OM if anyone said this to her directly. People always say that abused women stay with abusive men because they secretly think they deserve no better - but this is not often the subjective experience of the woman at the time. You can be under someone's control and not realize your strings are being pulled. Emotional blackmail is insidious because it flies under one's own radar much of the time.

I'm rambling here - so before I say more, I'll try to get my thoughts in order.
Posted By: pigskin Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 03:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Dia


1) If things between H and I continue to strengthen, she will very naturally drop away (meaning H will break up with her).

Additionally, H and I did not have a strong connection at all when I started this work, so if I had pushed an ultimatum, I'd have lost, hands down. When the connection is stronger, I will take action if it is needed at that time.


Those are great points, things I had not considered. Delivering an ultimatum when your spouse has emotionally detached from you does seem like a futile gesture and gift wrapping them for the OP...
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 04:54 PM
Originally Posted By: pigskin
Those are great points, things I had not considered. Delivering an ultimatum when your spouse has emotionally detached from you does seem like a futile gesture and gift wrapping them for the OP...


How do you communicate that you respect & love yourself when you continue to allow someone to disrespect you.

Grow a spine and start to stand up for yourself. It’s impossible to truly love yourself & draw self esteem from within if you are letting people walk all over you. Every time you let someone treat you badly your self esteem drops just a little bit and you communicate to them that will continue to put up with poor treatment because you don't believe you deserve any better.

Gift wrapping your spouse to the OP... no wrapping required, they are already with the OP, it's not a gift that you have to give.

Tolerating poor treatment of yourself by others will always communicate that you love them more than you love yourself and that it's ok to treat you badly. You also communicate that you can be controlled.

"..I love you very much, you are on a pedestal where I put you so that you are way above my level and I will always be looking up at you, worshipping you. I will continue to love you while you hurt me by being with the OP."

Sounds to me like that would work.... NOT!

You will never get respect from others when you allow them to continually treat you poorly. Setting boundaries is essential to any loving relationship, without boundaries people will continue to push there way over you to see how far they can push you, too see how much they can treat you poorly - I fail to see what good can be accomplished by allowing this to happen. If you have children, is this what you will communicate to them when they are in similar situations?

You can not get love from your spouse without respect from your spouse. Both are required for either to exist.

It's not my rule, that's just how it is.

If you are truly willing to do anything to get your marriages back on track, do what works. Your spouses need to trust you, part of rebuilding that trust means respecting yourself enough to let go of the people that hurt you and don't value you or the relationship they're in with you. If they respect you, they can trust you and it would allow them to love you.

It's not attractive to your spouse that you don't respect or love yourself, the OP's that they're with command more love & respect from your spouses than you do - once you can see that, you can see why they're with them and not with you.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 05:03 PM
don't believe me, listen to Gucci, he has more info on this process than anyone else on this forum:

Originally Posted By: gucci loafer
Nothing new to report with SIL. We heard they are in counseling and that they went on a date last week. Haven't heard feedback on how the date went...


Also...

For all those who still question how well "social interaction" (aka seeing someone else when you have a WS)

Read Redsoxfan's new post....


As I have told many of you time and time again...

REALITY... Redsoxfan didn't want her back UNTIL she was seeing someone else... Notice how quickly he turned around and how serious he is about reconciling.. (no surprise to me..)

REALITY.. Listen to reality...

They come back faster when you let go.. when you start dating...

This is ANOTHER example of it.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 05:07 PM
and yet another from Gucci, read it, learn it, live it...

Quote:
When a woman has an affair on a man, deep down she feels guilty because she knows it is wrong. However, the woman usually builds a wall around her guilt by blaming the BS (betrayed spouse) and telling him that a big part of the reason is because he didn't this or didn't that or did this to her or did that to her…

The Betrayed Spouse usually buys right into her reasons for justifying her affair and starts begging, pleading and telling her he will change... This is almost always met with... "too little, too late" ILYBINILWY and a thousand other reasons or excuses. He keeps trying harder and harder to show her how he has changed and learned the error of his ways…

All the while, she is THINKING about how great the OM is. Daydreaming about him, talking to him, and probably sleeping with him and lying to the BS about what is really happening....

She does NOT respect you. Why?

Because you have not shown her and told her that you are not going to share her with another man. AND if she wants to be with other men, that she CANNOT have you too.

End of conversation with her... Leave her alone. Do not chase her, do not call her. This woman NEEDS to see and feel that you RESPECT YOURSELF enough that you can (and WILL) do better than being with a woman who can't or isn't faithful. It isn't up for negotiation and you will not compete for her and that HE can have her....

When you learn to respect yourself like that, then she WILL notice. She may or may not come back, but she WILL respect you and I would bet money that you would be secretly surprised about not only your growth as a male, but surprised how she may see you in a much more respectful light, which may even bring her back.... On YOUR terms...


And a sample from another one:

Quote:
Women have proven over and over and over and over again throughout the history of man.... They are ATTRACTED to confident, strong, funny, men who have a BACKBONE and are decisive... And YET.... Are sensitive to HER needs... (Notice I didn't say is a "sensitive man")...


...When it comes to women, "he (gucci) get's it." I've seen that when people follow his and Puppy Dog Tails advice they start getting results. From my understanding of their posts DB / DR is a little weak on the affair side of things.

[/quote]
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 05:16 PM
Hi Robx or anyone,

So lets say I do decide to ask her to leave. What is the best way to do that in a manner that is respectful to myself and her? How do I handle the children? I am not going to leave the house and children for her. What are the logistics?

Thanks
Posted By: pigskin Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 05:59 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
don't believe me, listen to Gucci, he has more info on this process than anyone else on this forum:

Originally Posted By: gucci loafer
Nothing new to report with SIL. We heard they are in counseling and that they went on a date last week. Haven't heard feedback on how the date went...


Also...

For all those who still question how well "social interaction" (aka seeing someone else when you have a WS)

Read Redsoxfan's new post....


As I have told many of you time and time again...

REALITY... Redsoxfan didn't want her back UNTIL she was seeing someone else... Notice how quickly he turned around and how serious he is about reconciling.. (no surprise to me..)

REALITY.. Listen to reality...

They come back faster when you let go.. when you start dating...

This is ANOTHER example of it.


I don't disagree that it is possible for this approach to work. I do disagree that it will work for everyone. And for some people dating others is not an option, as they won't battle infidelity with infidelity of their own, be it for moral or religious reasons.

There is no one size fits all.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 06:21 PM
Question: How do I respect myself and allow the A to continue?

Answer:

1) I am not in a position to terminate the A. Only H is. "Allowing" the A to continue is not the proper verb if we are talking about me.

2) I will not proceed to full reconciliation if the A continues. Exactly when and how that line is drawn is up to me. While we are still in limbo and both figuring out whether we are going to work on things or proceed to D, I am not going to put pressure on the A. It's fine for people to disagree. Afterall, not every sitch is the same and what works for one person may not work for another. If we get to the point where we are both officially working on the M, then the OW needs to go, end of story. But afterall, the whole point of DBing is that only one person can do it - and for the moment, that person is me.

3) Even though I am not actively or overtly affair-busting, my simple presence in the house, together with H and our son is putting a helluva lot of pressure on the R with OW without my having to do anything overt at all. I have laid my boundaries that he is not to mention her around me and he respects those. He is not emailing her, calling her or texting her in my presence either, so the chilling effect is sure to be felt on her end.

For now, this is sufficient.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 06:22 PM
Good question,
Aren't you going to ask her to choose first and then gauge your actions based on that?

Formulate a plan, always have a plan and make sure you have thought out what's going to happen in either scenario.

If she chooses you, you continue going to marriage counselling, she continues to go to her personal counselling, she agrees to cut off all contact with OM and she agrees to be transparent with all of her actions so that you can both build up trust & respect in this relationship.

What is her current strategy for dealing with her sexual abuse issues, it definitely requires therapy but successful therapy is not long & drawn out, in fact it's quite the opposite, anything that is more than a year in it's scope won't do any good speaking from personal experience.

If she chooses the other man or can't make a decision, you have to determine what you have to do. No one can make that decision for you: do you continue to tolerate this open relationship because you love her and want to keep her close or do you finally put your foot down and say enough is enough. Either way I wouldn't leave the home - I would personally ask her to leave if that would be your plan, in fact it's what I did at my end. I packed my wife's things for her and put them all in the minivan and told her to go live with her parents because I didn't want to share a home with her anymore. In my case things didn't work out for her, the grass wasn't greener, the affair ended abruptly soon afterwards and she was left without him & me, she had a bit of a wakeup call. We have joint custody of the children but I tend to have the kids 80-90% of the time now, it's been like this for quite some time. She was living with her parents but she ended up fighting with them as well, it was funny, they actually grew tired of her childish, immature ways because she started treating them poorly and they kicked her out as well - she ended up burning alot of bridges with family & friends.

Sometimes they need to experience hard times & maybe hit rock bottom before they see that what they've done with their lives - it's a bit of a wakeup call. They've been pursuing a fantasy life all this time and sooner or later, most find out that fantasies are just that, fantasies and they don't last. The affair can't continue to remain new & exciting, it becomes old, it loses it's lustre. Losing the security of their home & previous life makes them fend for themselves, they don't have the luxury & security of their old life while maintaining their affairs. Having children means they have make time to continue being a responsible parent, until a separation/divorce goes through, they have to rely on their financial resources to live and that means their current lifestyle is impacted and you don't have to make that easier on them. There are consequences for our actions, we're adults and we have to learn that. When they realize that the new grand life they had been planning is a bust, they start to see the errors of their ways and start to reconsider reconciliation. Another example, check out smileyperson's thread, that's where he's at right now, he has realized his value, he is separated from his wife, her affair ended, SP moved on with his life, he's having a good life now, not just surviving, THRIVING!

That's where I'm at currently, my wife is asking to go out for coffee, taking me out to restaurants, going on dates and I'm not making it easy for her, I'm not just going to say ok, that's good enough for me, come home, let's be happily married again. Trust has to be earned, because it's been totally eroded, the changes I'm seeing in her have to be real, not temporary for short term goals & rewards. If our marriage is important to her, she'll put the effort into showing it and do the work that's required as there is alot of damage that has to be recovered from.

I also don't want the marriage I had because it's what led to this state we're currently in, I'm working on myself and I definitely want a better life for myself and my children and my goal is to continue pressing forward, realizing more of my untapped potential, continuing to grow & evolve and be the best me I can possibly be and that's the goal for everyone, especially the DBer's on this site.

Your goal ultimately is to have a great life and to set an example for your children so that they can emulate this behavior and have great lives of their own - that's your legacy as a successful parent and human being.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 06:38 PM
Thank you Robx. The problem is that we don't have a place she can go easily. She has a friend that would take her for a while, but she would quickly need to find a place of her own. You are right, I need a plan.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 06:47 PM
Thank you Dia. Do you know what happens when your H sees OW? How do you handle those times?
Quote:
Another example, check out smileyperson's thread, that's where he's at right now, he has realized his value, he is separated from his wife, her affair ended, SP moved on with his life, he's having a good life now, not just surviving, THRIVING!


Ok, Smiley is my pal here and IRL...it is important to be very real about this. SP is in Europe, away from his sitch and living it up. The reality of the separation has been brutal and the financial aspect has been precarious. I don't doubt that he and we all will end up thriving but you can't tie it up with a pretty bow.

Per Coach and SP-

“This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end — which you can never afford to lose — with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”

Regardless, I still agree with you robx.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 07:03 PM
Tristan - that's a good question. My sitch is a bit unusual because H and I lived 200 miles apart until just recently. OW lives 2000 miles away, but her family lives here in town. OW sees H when she visits her family. She is a teacher, so that means mostly Christmas and a visit or two in the summer.

I am pretty certain they have slept together. They sure as heck aren't doing it with me under this roof even if I am just an allegedly temporary guest!

In between one of my visits, H, OW and kidlet went on a picnic. I believe FIL kept kidlet afterward and H may have stayed out with her or spent the night with her - I am not entirely certain.

How do I handle it? I don't like it. I want it over, pronto. I ignore it for the most part and distract myself HARD if it really bugs me. However - there's this line in either the DB or DR book that says something like, "if you knew - if you absolutely knew for certain that your spouse would be 100% back with you and committed to the marriage in 30 days, how would you act?"

Well, if I knew it would all be history in 30 days, sheesh - I wouldn't worry about it.

I think I said this in my own thread, but a long distance relationship with OW will never be able to stand up to a happy, sassy DBing WIFE who is right here at H's fingertips.

I'm here in the house. I have hugs, warm smiles and compliments from H every single day. Let *her* be the one to stress about where I'm sleeping or what we're doing together. Me, I'm working on me, getting my own life in order and giving H a chance to see how awesome his wife is, and yes, it is shaking him to the core.

H has explicitly stated to me that he does not want to marry OW. He has never claimed to be in love with her. He has also stated to me that he probably doesn't want to marry again maybe ever. So for me, the task is not to break him up with OW; it's to get him to commit to being vibrantly married to ME. If I achieve the second, I will have already achieved the first in the process.

He's confused, conflicted and very clearly still in love with me, still attracted to me and can't even be near me w/o trying to hide a very physical response to me. Time is on my side.

Will I tolerate this forever? Absolutely not.

Will I tolerate it for now? Yes.

Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 07:04 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Quote:
Another example, check out smileyperson's thread, that's where he's at right now, he has realized his value, he is separated from his wife, her affair ended, SP moved on with his life, he's having a good life now, not just surviving, THRIVING!


Ok, Smiley is my pal here and IRL...it is important to be very real about this. SP is in Europe, away from his sitch and living it up. The reality of the separation has been brutal and the financial aspect has been precarious. I don't doubt that he and we all will end up thriving but you can't tie it up with a pretty bow.

Per Coach and SP-

“This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end — which you can never afford to lose — with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”

Regardless, I still agree with you robx.


I agree, there is no pretty bow to put on any of this.

None of this would ever be something considered a present, if it was, I would have asked for the original receipt and returned it to get my money back!

This is all very tough, the decisions are all personal, no one is being pushed to make any decisions as these decisions impact only the lives affected by the people involved.

I would consider this to be the toughest times in our lives.

Don't forget, we're human beings with the ability to adapt to various environments & situations - we will survive. The goal is not just to survive, the goal is always a great life in whatever form that may be.

As always I wish everyone the best of luck in all their respective situations and I hope you all find the peace in life you all deserve.
Quote:
None of this would ever be something considered a present, if it was, I would have asked for the original receipt and returned it to get my money back!


LOL!

robx- I didn't know just how much you "get it" until reading about your sitch just now.


Quote:
As always I wish everyone the best of luck in all their respective situations and I hope you all find the peace in life you all deserve.


Likewise!!!
I am finding a lot in common with you all on this thread. My wife was heavily into an EA that I busted up in March. Since then we have been in limbo - she doesn't want to work on the M but is doing some IC, but states that eventually we will D but isn't moving in that direction aggressively yet.

Pigskin - I am like you in that our R was lacking 'connection' for a while so I also struggled with whether detatchment was the right thing or not since that was part of the problems we had.

I did what robx is advocating - I told her I wanted NC with OM and I also talked to OM as well (not sure it helped). She put in an effort to do this but continued to state she was just here for the kids. However, I found that the EA had returned to a lesser extent (instead of daily contact it was a few times a week and less intense) at one point a couple of months later (May/June) and gave her the ultimatum of no contact or leave. She chose to move out of our bedroom and be 'separated' in the same house, but at the same time she has once again cut back on the OM (seems like a text msg or two a week at most).


What did I learn from all this regarding ultimatums when you have little connection with W? The good thing was that I firmly established boundaries regarding OM I think to some extent and have continually pressed this point, but at times have obsessed a little too much over it. The bad thing is that my ultimatum didn't go the way I planned and she chose to half-leave.

Now I realize that in the end I can't control her and OM but I can at least stay firm on boundaries in order to try to gain some respect.

Looking at the big picture the good news is that she isn't moving towards D, and OM contact is way reduced, so I must have done something right. If I had done nothing she would have been in a full-blown EA+PA for a long time by now.

However, I am still in limbo, but 'attaching' doesn't help in my situation since it is what I did early on and it drove her further away (she called it 'smothering' her and also complained when I would question her whereabouts, etc). Detatching/dropping-the-rope is the only option I think, while continuing to maintain boundaries about OM.

Lately I have been feeling more indifferent about her - this feeling is more prominent all the time. I am getting tired of being disrespected and treated badly, especially in front of my kids, so I am starting to avoid her when I can and calling her out no her bad behavior in front of kids when I need to. I am willing to stick it out for the sake of my family and suffer through but in the end she will be the one filing for D and explaining it to our kids, not me. Right now, hope of R is slowly fading away unless she miraculously turns her attitude around, but I know that 'attaching' is not the answer.

She knows I still lover her and it is almost a problem I think, so I don't need to demonstrate that much any more - it is respect that is lacking.

Pigskin - you might want to pick up "Love Must be Tough" by Dobson.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/18/09 08:53 PM
Hi Robx.

I have started reading your thread and it makes sense. I really hope it works out for you.

Thank you for your advice.
Posted By: Deep Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/19/09 03:30 AM
Hi,

breakaway: I hope I didn't come across negatively. I was not referring to your exchange with Robx specifically - just making some points from my own perspective. We all have our own limits on what to endure in a M, and it looks like you were put through hell.

I guess with WASs, it's impossible to draw the line sometimes. What qualifies as unacceptable violations of the the give-and-take needed in every M? What goes through the minds of people when they enter WAS mode and twist and turn reality into a format that suits their mindset? When is it a genuine case of simply one spouse driving another into desperation?

One of the issues (and points I raised) I struggled with was that if things really bad, then put in the effort to try and work things out, or in the WORST scenario, walk. Having an A is not helping is it?

Pigskin, robx, trying, tristan: Shortly after I started posting here, I realised Gucci actually referred to my sitch as another "example". And I got a bit of a earful from Sandi about it too. Now, I definitely agree that there is no one thing that will work in all sitchs, nor do I necessarily agree with gucci's views 100%. What I _can_ say is that W underwent quite a change when she felt threatened herself. (No, I did not plan it that way).

Background again: W had agreed to end A but was in contact with OM (her client) still. I had had about 7 months of the usual script: "OM is a really good, kind, and decent man", "we are best friends who found a connection and never meant this to happen", "we can still be friends", " I love you but am in love with him, but will try to work things out for the kids" ad nauseum. The NC boundary was obviously not adhered to.

Like Trying, I detached more and more with time. I had a very good friend (what Sandi called my OW), who had been there for me in the first 2 months especially and helped keep me sane. It was only later I found out she caught her H cheating too 1 week after I confided in her about my M issues. So yeah, she was in a lot of pain too, and we got very close and shared a lot. Kind of like a personalised version of this forum in some ways I guess. To be clear about this, I kept the lines clean. W knew I was talking to her and went through my phone one day when I was in the bathroom. She completely freaked out and demanded access to emails, online chats, phone records everything (she got it). And yeah, W then demanded NC with friend! She felt she could not deal with me being so close and confiding with another woman in any way - period.

When I pointed out the obvious - that while we were close, we were truly friends only and to compare W's reaction with what she did herself - W went into a flux of denial and having to face reality for a few weeks. Having what she felt was the shoe on the other foot DID seem to help wake her up.

There were (are) a million other things happening that impacted our M, mainly for the good. But the probability that people will continue to take things for granted as long as they CAN take them for granted is I think pretty valid. How you snap them out of that mode is another thing entirely.
Dear Tristan,

I woke up tonight and your situation was really on my mind.Something Stronger had said to someone else was percolating in the back of my mind...she'd asked someone else if he could be her W's white knight. I thought OM was the white knight, that he was going to rescue me from my suffering...but he was a wolf in sheep's clothing.

I know it is a lot to ask someone to endure the OM situation..but the wolf is at the door, tristan. She's a fragile person right now.. please think long and hard about pushing her out, towards him. He is telling her you don't really love her, that you never loved her, that you don't know how. Proving this wrong doesn't make you weak, or spineless. There is a difference between self-respect and "pride" the kind of pride that cuts off its nose to spite its face.

Time is on your side.Only you know how much you can take, but I would plead with you to take the longer view, bide your time, to get support for yourself, and at least for the moment, try to protect her from herself. That is NOT a long term solution, and I don't mean it as such...but divorce is permanent. One thing that stuck out in my memory from Michele's book is...you can always get divorced later. You can always make an ultimatum, you can always ask her to leave, but you don't have much to lose by continuing to show her the real person you can be now, when she's in your home. You bailed on her the first time when you quit marriage counseling. Somewhere inside she expects you to bail on her again...OM is using that against you, I promise.

Some here would say, hey that's the consequences...but she's the mother of your children. What happens to her, happens to them too. You don't strike me as someone who would take any pleasure watching her fall on her face.

I would not give this advice to everyone...but I feel compelled to say this. I feel it in my bones that this woman needs your mercy right now, not tough love. Time will tell if it will work. Her problems may be too great for your marriage to bear, and I don't advocate sacrificing yourself for a lifetime for someone who can't get straightened out. But for now, try not to look at her as someone to fix, but as someone who needs your protection right now.

The wolf is at the door, tristan.

~breakaway

p.s. tristan is a knight's name wink
Well put, breakaway. Pretty much how I feel with my wife right now. She is confused and fragile, but she's not getting anything but a fabulous husband out of me right now.

I won't put up with this forever. But like Dia says, I'm not empowered to end my wife's EA. Only she is. I will control what I can control. I am strong and confident and don't take any crap from her. Time is on my side, and I know the OM is a quivering mass of clingy goo due to his own sad marriage. He is a snake, but he's definitely no match for me.
Quote:
He is a snake, but he's definitely no match for me.


oooohh, excellent! you get the attitude award for today!
Originally Posted By: breakaway

Time is on your side.Only you know how much you can take, but I would plead with you to take the longer view, bide your time, to get support for yourself, and at least for the moment, try to protect her from herself. That is NOT a long term solution, and I don't mean it as such...but divorce is permanent. One thing that stuck out in my memory from Michele's book is...you can always get divorced later. You can always make an ultimatum, you can always ask her to leave, but you don't have much to lose by continuing to show her the real person you can be now, when she's in your home. You bailed on her the first time when you quit marriage counseling. Somewhere inside she expects you to bail on her again...OM is using that against you, I promise.

Some here would say, hey that's the consequences...but she's the mother of your children. What happens to her, happens to them too. You don't strike me as someone who would take any pleasure watching her fall on her face.

I would not give this advice to everyone...but I feel compelled to say this. I feel it in my bones that this woman needs your mercy right now, not tough love. Time will tell if it will work. Her problems may be too great for your marriage to bear, and I don't advocate sacrificing yourself for a lifetime for someone who can't get straightened out. But for now, try not to look at her as someone to fix, but as someone who needs your protection right now.

The wolf is at the door, tristan.


I won't agree with much of what breakaway has to say but part of your plan can include letting this situation ride for some time. Give yourself a time frame that you're comfortable waiting before proceeding with action. The idea is to have a plan, write it out if necessary and follow it through. "...We've been at this for x number of months, I will give her another x number of months, if there is still no improvement on her part and she isn't showing any real signs of improvement, after x amount of months I proceed with asking her to make a decision to choose me and stop all contact with the OM and to commit 100% to our marriage and the required work to rebuild it or I will make the decision for her because I choose not to live in limbo - my life is just as important as hers and I choose not to waste anymore time after this."

Time is precious, time is finite, time is linear and it's something we never get to reclaim, once today is gone, it's gone. We don't know what our lives hold and placing our lives on hold or more accurately, allowing others to place our lives on hold is disrespectful. Give her more time, determine what you're comfortable with Tristan, base it on how much time you've spent in "limbo" and how much more time you can do this but always respect yourself. If you give her x number of months to get this resolved and she is still doing the same thing at one point you're going to have to realize that some people would rather live in limbo & uncertainty than be responsible with the lives they live & affect. People who have open relationships (spouse and the other person on the side) tend to want to maintain these relationships as long as they can when they're enabled to do so because they get something different from each partner, different needs are met by both partners and that is a hard thing to let go of.

Be the best husband you can be right now, give her your mercy, love her, be there for her, respect her, take care of her, give her the security of being your wife.

But... don't tolerate the open relationship, give her some more time to make the decision and I know this is something you're wrestling with inside your head because lately it's bothering you and it's something I understand. You are giving 100% right now and you aren't getting back from your wife what you feel you should be getting, your needs aren't being met and you're placing them on standby while you figure this situation out with your wife. You're a great guy and you're handling this all as best as you can. However at one point, if it hasn't started already, you will ask yourself what am I doing all of this for? A relationship, a successful one is mutually beneficial and it currently isn't for you, if it was, we would never have heard from you on these forums. I'm going to validate you as well, it's ok for you to want your wife to love you properly which means wanting her to turf the OM and start focusing her energies on you, there is nothing wrong with that, it definitely isn't selfish and even being selfish isn't all that bad either: if you want something and you're honest about it, you're not hiding it, you're not manipulating something or somebody to get it. The longer you put your needs on standby you will notice that you start to become a little bitter, a little angry, unloved and you will start questioning yourself, "why me? what's wrong with me? why can't you get what you need from me? why can't you communicate your needs to me and ask me to fulfill them?", you'll become bitter, needy, start to develop insecure habits, possibly some anger.

Before the naysayers jump in, this is all human nature and me admitting it is honest. Everyone wants to be loved, everyone deserves to have their faith & effort rewarded and when this doesn't happen, we tend to become unhappy, confused, disoriented and we question our self-worth.

Tristan give yourself a reasonable amount of time you can continue to be in your current situation without hurting yourself too much but don't give her forever because if you do, she'll take forever in this current situation if she can.

One last thing before i drop off,
We always want what we don't have and what we have we usually take for granted.

Diamonds are valuable because they are rare, if you could step in your front yard and scoop up a handful of perfect diamonds out of your flowerbed along with all your neighbors being able to do the same thing, they wouldn't be as valuable would they?

You want your wife to stop seeing the OM, you currently don't have that but you want it. This is something you attach value to.

You want your wife to give you the same energy that she's been investing in this OM and you currently don't have that either, this is something you attach value to.

You want a great marriage free of issues & infidelity and you don't have that, it is something that you attach value to.

Your wife has you, this great husband while she still sees & contacts this OM intermittently. You have some value to her but she has you so the value attached to you isn't as high, coupled with the fact that she still has this OM, who has some value in her point of view as well. She has both of you and although you both possess some value, one doesn't appear to be more important to the other, how could it be, she's risking losing you while maintaining a relationship with the OM and if she can risk losing you that translates into you not being as valuable to her at the current moment. If you were to move on at one point, it will be your decision, not hers and at that point you would have alot of value because you've taken the choice from her - she no longer gets the luxury of spending time with both of you, she no longer gets the luxury of choosing who to be with, she no longer has the luxury of the life & security you offer her.

Always remember your value, you are high value.

Give her some more time, set up a period of time that you can continue to tolerate this current situation, set up a plan and follow it through. You must have a plan for either scenario: her choosing you or her choosing the OM - failing to plan is actually planning to fail.

Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - not sure how to handle it - 08/19/09 03:38 PM
I agree with the whole have a plan and a timeframe idea. The time frame can always be adjusted up or down depending on changes in the sitch, including changes in your own tolerance, but yes, you can't let this go on forever.

I am NOT trying to tell you what to do as you know your own sitch and your wife's mental state far better than we do. I think maybe you've done this already, but perhaps it would be wise to discuss an ultimatum with your IC prior to implementation?

Hang in there. It's a long row to hoe and we've all been down it.
Journaling:

Tuesday:
W called and asked if I could meet them atthe park after work and asked if I could get some food for a picnic. Of course I agreed. She seemed to be in a better mood today. The picnic was good. I am noticing that D3 is really getting attached to me. She is one that requires a lot of affection. It feels good. While I was out playing with the girls; I noticed that MIL and W were having a serious and emotional discussion. I get to the bench; there are tears in W's eyes.
W: "Mom wants me to come back home with her."
M: "Why?"
W: "To get my life back together."
M: "What do you think?"
<silence>
W: "D5 could go to the little kindergarten in the mountains."
<silence>
W: "She thinks I just need time away from OM. She thinks that I should give you another chance."
MIL: "I am very sorry for your situation."
W: "I am giving you another chance. I'm still here. Aren't I?"
...
M: "I love you. Right now I am just trying to figure out how."
W: "Are you thinking of seperation?"
M: "No. Not at all. It's just that some days you need me close; others you need me to let go. I never know what you want from me"
...
M: "Did you see OM yesterday?"
W: "Yes."
M: "After Work?"
W: "No. For lunch."
...

The conversation continues as with the children in the car.
W <crying>: "I hate this; this is all my fault."
M: "No. We are both to blame. I am the one that drove you away."
W: "But I am the one that opened my heart to another person. You should be leaving me. I shouldn't be leaving you. I don't deserve to be with you."
M: "Don't think that. I didn't deserve you for the longest time. You need to think better of yourself."

Conversation ends as we drive home seperately. I put the girls in the bath while W takes MIL to store to grab a couple of items. W gets back before girls are done with bath. We put them to bed. D5, W, and I end up in D5's room listening to Lisa Loeb children's music (a very tolerable in fact enjoyable children's CD; I have actually listened to it with no kids in the car). W put's her head on my chest as a stroke her hair. D5 spends the time getting her doll ready for bed. D5 goes to bed and we move to our room.

W: "You should be happy that you stole my mothers heart."
M: "I am. She is a good person."
W: "She is doing this because she loves you. She loves me. She loves us."

...

W: "I am horrible. I don't deserve anything."
M: "Don't think that way. You... we need to keep our heads high. We are worthy human beings. We are human - we make mistakes. It does not mean that we are not worthy."
W: "Thank you, you are right." - kisses me on the head

...

M: "You know we need a plan? We are living in limbo. This is not good for you. It is not good for me. And it is not good for the girls."
W: "I know. Are you going to kick me out?"
M: "No. I will never to tell you to leave. But I do need to figure out my boundaries, what I can accept. And then the hard part is figuring out what to do when they are broken."
W: "What are you thinking?"
M: "I really don't know."
W: "You are getting advice, what does IC say?"
M: "Its all conflicting."
W: "IC says you need to leave?"
M: "He says it is something I need to think about. I'm not there."
M: "Do you desire to work on our marriage?"
W: "Yes."
M: "Would you be willing to go to couples therapy?"
W: "Not now. It is too soon."
M: "OK. Do you have a plan?"
W: "Well. I am going to seperate."
M: "Do you have a plan for that."
W: "I need to find a place."
M: "Is that it?"
W: "Then I will need to set up a seperate checking account. I guess I need to look into what needs to be done."
M: "Hasn't OM been helping out with that."
W: "Yes. He has an open apartment on the other side of town. He's offered it to me. But I am not going to move there. I want to be close to here; near daycare and D5's school."
...
M: "Did you kiss him (OM) yesterday?"
W: "No. I didn't."
M: "Thank you. Thank you for respecting our marriage, respecting me to some extent. And respecting yourself. I don't believe you want to be that type of person."
W: "I don't."

Logistics, finances, of a theoretical seperation are discussed.

W: "All I need from here is the couch in the basement and one of our tables."
M: "I guess that would be the one in the dining room. Wait, that is grandma's."
W: "You are right, they are both family heir looms. I guess I will have to get my own table."
<pause>
W: "As I think about it. There is nothing here that is mine. Everything is yours."
M: "There is a lot that we bought jointly."
...
M: "Do you know what you want?"
W: "Yes. I just don't know how to get there."
M: "What is it."
W: "I want my own place. I want to move out."
M: "OK."
W: <obviously surprised at my response> "What was that shrug for. Don't you care?"
M: "No. It's not that. I am comfortable that I have done everything I can to make this marriage work. There is nothing more I can do now. It doesn't mean I will stop trying to make us work."
W: "You know you will be able to visit."
M: "You will be welcome here too."
...
M: "Is my picture still up at your work?"
W: "No."
M: "When did you take it down?"
W: "Yesterday... Then I took it out this morning... put it back... took it out again... and put it back. I am so screwed up." (smiles)
M (smiling): "You say you still want to be friends."
W: "Yes. It's not the picture, it's the frame. All that love stuff."
M (still smiling): Well you say you still love me."
W (smiling): "I will probably take it out again tomorrow."
...
W: "OK sweetheart. I'm tired. Let's go to sleep."
M: "Well. You know. We are still in this room and it was only last week that you put up that sign." pointing to the "Always Kiss me Goodnight" sign above the bed.
W: "I don't think it was last week."
M: "OK. Maybe 2 weeks ago."
w: "Come here."

I spend most of the night on my side of the bed. But couldn't sleep. Surprisingly, I was not anxious. I think I was more exhilerated. For the first time in a while, I felt I was in control. Even if it was a bad situation, I was in control. Finally, I rolled over to put my arm around W. Touching her always helps me sleep. By morning, she was on my side of the bed.

Wednesday:

Spent most of the morning seperate, doing our own things. I went up to say I was leaving. She was inside the closet.
M: "I'm on my way out."
W: "OK. Have a nice day."
M: "Do I get a kiss?"
W: "How about a hug? You don't seem in the mood for a kiss."
M: "OK."
W: "I noticed that you were up last night."
M: "Yeah, I couldn't sleep. So I read a couple chapters. Don't worry. I am fine. I am actually impressed with how well I am doing."
W: "I'm impressed too. You need to keep taking care of yourself."
M: "I prefer work on myself."
W: "Same thing."
M: "Work implies that it isn't easy."

I gently kiss her; not long but good. She comes back for many more. I want more, but stop. I don't want to be too easy.
M: "That was good."
W: "Yes."
M: "Have a nice day."
W: "You too."
I walk towards the door
W: "Love you." as I am nearly out the door
M: "Love you too."

That felt good.
Hi breakaway, Robx, et. al.

I agree with all of you that I should give this time; but also have a plan. As you see from above, I am trying to figure this out and being somewhat transparent with W about it. She is not enjoying the situation she is in at all.

Thank you all for your help. It is amazing how much clearer my mind has become in the last few days.

Breakaway - Funny that you bring up Tristan. Last night as you wrote your last post, I believe I was up reading the story of Tristan. The unfortunate thing is that I don't believe it is going to end well for him. But I am amazed that you would log on and post advice to me at 4 in the morning. It touches me that people care that much here.

Again. Thank you all.
Tristan,

That doesn't sound terrible, but what doesn't sound good is this "are you going to give me a kiss?" stuff, and the goodnight kiss stuff. In time you may realize that your wife is capable of being lovey-dovey with you so as not to hurt you. But look at the bottom-line. She wants to separate. She isn't ready for counseling. She hasn't stopped seeing OM. Those actions are the most telling.

I'm not suggesting you play hardball, but I am suggesting that you need to tone down this "can I have a kiss" stuff. You could stand to be a little less clingy, or whatever this is. I think to a woman (that is cheating) that it's desperate, needy, and unattractive. From what she's said, I think she could stand to have some doubts about where you stand with this. I think you could tone down the reassurances. I also think you could quit taking full responsibility for this ala, "I pushed you into his arms". There is a point where being Mr. Kind and Understanding just looks like Mr. Wimpy and Desperate.
Originally Posted By: Phoenixdeux
I also think you could quit taking full responsibility for this ala, "I pushed you into his arms".


Agree with this. Ghosts from her past notwithstanding, she is an adult and *deserves* ... in the positive sense of that word ... to be allowed to own her own decisions and their consequences.

Some of us(including myself) are always in danger of soft-pedaling or overnicing a response to a spouse because *we* cannot bear to see the evidences of *their* pain play out in front of us. That's understandable, but does nobody any lasting good.

I LOVED how you expressed yourself here:

Originally Posted By: Tristan

W:.... You need to keep taking care of yourself."
M: "I prefer work on myself."
W: "Same thing."
M: "Work implies that it isn't easy."
Originally Posted By: tristan

...
M: "Did you see OM yesterday?"
W: "Yes."
M: "After Work?"
W: "No. For lunch."
...


Do you notice that she flaunts her contact with the OM but in an innocent, don't be mad at me, I don't know what i'm doing type of way?

In your conversation with her, she even asked you if you are going to kick her out. She mentions separating, she mentions details about an open apartment that the other man has - why did that detail come up, why would the OM mention the open apartment to her, has she been there, have they been physically intimate, it seems to convenient to know about an apartment that she isn't going to be using when she moves out. Did she kiss him, she told you know but it's very possible that she was lying. She hasn't broken contact with him, she's very much attracted to him, infatuated is probably a more accurate term.

My take on this based on what I've read in the countless volumes of information available on this. WAS's will stop hiding their affairs with the OM after a while, when they feel they control their situation so much without any recourse or action on their spouse's part to defend against, they begin to openly flaunt what they're doing. Reason being... they feel guilty. They know what they're doing is wrong. They are waiting for you to do something, they are waiting for you to say something or give them a kick in the pants that says YOU MUST STOP THIS! You aren't doing any of this, you are treating her too nicely and she continues to treat you poorly and reward your kind actions & understand with more infidelity.

Einstein said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over & over again and expecting different results. You continue to think that being super nice to her, being perfect will magically lure her away from the OM and back to your loving arms but it isn't working is it. On top of that based on your description she feels horrible because regardless of the great husband you're being and all the great stuff you're doing, she still wants to be with the OM.

They (WAS's) have so much power at this point and literally can't stop themselves from doing anything, I believe that a WAS specifically the one you describe as your wife, is looking for direction, she's looking for you to tell her that this has gone on long enough.

"... I love you very much but I can't in good conscience continue to permit what you are doing to me, our marriage & our family. You must choose between him or me, no more waiting, no more testing the waters, trying to determine what the better choice is. You make a choice and live with it. We're adults and we're responsible for our actions, our decisions, that's how we live life but holding on to me & him is disrespectful of me. If the OM is that important to you and you can't decide to choose him or me I will make the decision for you and let you go and move on with my life. I won't compete with the OM for your love. If you can't see that I was always and will always be the better choice, it is your loss not mine and I respect myself enough to let go of the people in my life that don't value me or the relationship they have with me. You are practically dating another man while still being married to me and even if you can rationalize that behavior as being ok and label it as trying to discover yourself I won't do the same because I respect myself to much to allow you to continue hurting me." .... and then walk away.

Seriously, it's ballsy to openly admit to you that she had lunch with the other man during a family picnic with you.

She's looking to you for direction, leadership, a plan but she isn't getting it. You sit back, being the best loving husband you can be " Please continue to see the OM, it's ok with me, I'll be here waiting with supper ready when you get home."

Yes this isn't what you're going to do and you'll defend your actions with "because I love her...". I personally would have told her to leave, I would have told her that while she was out having lunch with the OM she should have stopped at the mall and picked up luggage to pack up her things and move out of the home.

She has lunch with the OM but then asks you to go to a picnic and pick up food for you, her and the family. She had no problem picking up food with the other man.

Respect yourself, please if you don't pick up anything else from all I've posted, please respect yourself.
I also guarantee that she will have a place of her own even though her mother has offered for her to move in with her to break her contact with the OM. Having a place of her own will allow her to continue seeing the OM.

And that "open apartment" she mentioned, she may not live there but the two of them will be using that apartment for other specific purposes. Good planning on his part that he already has a "lair" specifically suited for this purpose, open, no occupants, other end of the city, far away from prying eyes, discreet - perfectly suited for this purpose.

She brought up the separation as well, again.
She's been thinking about it more & more.
Those acts of affection: kissing & hugging, she probably does that more now than she ever did in the past, she feels guilty for what she's doing to you and is over-compensating with affection towards you to make you feel better.

Those kisses I'm sure taste bittersweet when you know she spends time with the OM.

My descriptions are graphic and are done so on purpose.
Time to open the eyes a bit Tristan.

And please stop allowing her to use her sexual abuse issue as a crutch for her actions... "this happened to me so I'm going to do this and blame it on these past events and how they traumatized me". Someone posted earlier, she's an adult, allow her to claim responsibility for her actions & decisions and allow her to know the consequences of said actions.

When you finally do ask her to choose between you and the other man and she can't make a decision, throw this monkey wrench into the loop... "I guess it's ok for me to start dating and meeting OTHER WOMEN and maybe I'll find out first hand why it's such a hard decision for you to make."

When confronted with that possibility, her attitude may change, if it doesn't, it's just made your decision even easier.
I agree. Time to man up! Women are attracted to men that demand respect.

You should be telling her that you are not sure what you want either. You are not sure that you want her. It's dead on about wanting what you can't have. Let her think she doesnt have you anymore.

How do you think the OM acted? Did he chase her or did he play hard to get.

Regardless of the guilt you feel you need to keep telling yourself "I DONT DESERVE THIS... I DESERVE TO BE TREATED WITH LOVE AND RESPECT.... I AM A PERSON OF VALUE.... I DONT DESERVE TO BE CHEATED ON..."

Nice guys dont always have to finish last.

Take her cake away. If you dont you will be RESENTFUL and BITTER. It's just a matter of time.

Stay strong. PMA
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
I agree. Time to man up! Women are attracted to men that demand respect.

You should be telling her that you are not sure what you want either. You are not sure that you want her. It's dead on about wanting what you can't have. Let her think she doesnt have you anymore.

How do you think the OM acted? Did he chase her or did he play hard to get.

Regardless of the guilt you feel you need to keep telling yourself "I DONT DESERVE THIS... I DESERVE TO BE TREATED WITH LOVE AND RESPECT.... I AM A PERSON OF VALUE.... I DONT DESERVE TO BE CHEATED ON..."

Nice guys dont always have to finish last.

Take her cake away. If you dont you will be RESENTFUL and BITTER. It's just a matter of time.

Stay strong. PMA


Thank you PMA, I was beginning to think that my ideas had never been heard of before. Man Up is right!
Dead on Rob!

Women not only want to be rescued but they also want a knight that will first slay the dragon.

She is begging you to stand up and fight for her and your family.

If she doesnt wake up then she wasnt worth it anyway.

Have you read DB/DR. "Stop doing what doesn't work..."

Try taking other people's advice that have dealt with this before.

If she is done then she is done. You are just putting off the inevitable. I know you dont want to face it, but it just continue to eat away at your soul. You can always take her back if that's what you want. FOr now kick her azz to the curb and demand respect. Would you let your child walk all over like this. Would you let a 17 yr old teenage daughter say that "im staying over at my boyfriends house???" HELL NO!!! Well that's how your W is acting. DEMAND RESPECT!!!!
Quote:
"... I love you very much but I can't in good conscience continue to permit what you are doing to me, our marriage & our family. You must choose between him or me, no more waiting, no more testing the waters, trying to determine what the better choice is. You make a choice and live with it. We're adults and we're responsible for our actions, our decisions, that's how we live life but holding on to me & him is disrespectful of me. If the OM is that important to you and you can't decide to choose him or me I will make the decision for you and let you go and move on with my life. I won't compete with the OM for your love. If you can't see that I was always and will always be the better choice, it is your loss not mine and I respect myself enough to let go of the people in my life that don't value me or the relationship they have with me. You are practically dating another man while still being married to me and even if you can rationalize that behavior as being ok and label it as trying to discover yourself I won't do the same because I respect myself to much to allow you to continue hurting me."


I like this so much that I'll put it in quotes so that you could consider memorizing it. You can't ask her for respect if you are unwilling to show that you respect yourself.
I will agree with the whole concept of respecting yourself. But something needs to be kept in mind - is her mental diagnosis.

I deal with a spouse with the same issues...and it becomes a whole new ballgame. Tristan is dealing with someone that may very possibly not react the same way most WAWs would.

Tristan, I think you're handling yourself and your wife very respectfully now. It's trying....and it seems you're not letting it really get you down.

Hat's off to you....keep journaling
- from what I gather she is a social worker (correct me if I'm wrong), to be able to perform those duties responsibly means that she is in command of her mental faculties. She is also training others in this area: so she is able to provide guidance and also provide training/education. I don't sense and again I could be wrong that she is mentally deficient in this or any other area.

She is attracted to another man, infatuated enough to not want to let go of him. She is seeing this OM, sharing meals with him, discussing "open apartments", she feels guilty for her actions & feelings yet continues to do them because she can't help feeling attracted to him - that's how attraction works, we don't get to choose who we're attracted to. She is talking about separation yet still enjoys the security of her home and the relationship with her husband who currently acts as the backup plan should this relationship with the OM not work out. This is typical of affairs where the WAS is actively having an EA/PA while maintaining some semblance of married life to her spouse.

Tristan is dealing with a spouse who by the account of his own words & descriptions has asked him if he is angry with her, if he wants to kick her out of the home, how long is he going to wait for her, if he still loves her, etc. She is testing him and continuing her actions based on those test results. She knows that Tristan doesn't like the fact she is seeing another man but since Tristan doesn't want to stand up to her and tell her to cease these actions immediately or risk losing him she will continue doing what she is doing. She doesn't risk losing anything so she continues doing what she does and feels guilty because of it and on top of that openly flaunts the fact that she sees the OM, talks to him daily, goes out with him, has lunch with him, etc.

She will continue to do so until Tristan puts his foot down and forces her to make a choice. Why would she change her actions otherwise? What would be the impetus of this change?

For her, "it ain't broke so I won't fix it", she's getting certain needs met by the OM and she still has the security of backup option #2: Tristan.

If Tristan removes himself as backup option#2, he forces her to make a decision. Remaining as option #2 doesn't require her to make a decision, the only time she will make a decision is when the OM gets tired of her and then at that point, she has the security of her backup plan to fall back on.

Currently she's with OM right now, she isn't forced to make a decision between him & her husband so she won't and in reality, since she won't let go of the OM, she is choosing him over Tristan - I hope we all can see this and Tristan allows this/enables this by not requiring her to make a decision to choose OM or himself.

If & when he finally requires her to make a decision and by chance she chooses the OM. Tristan hasn't lost anything, in fact he currently doesn't have his wife, the OM does.

However in this scenario Tristan regains his life, he regains his self-respect because he doesn't compete with the other man (you should never compete with the other person, you don't have to prove you're better, competing communicates that you don't believe you're better already). He gets to live a more honest life, he doesn't have to guess where his wife is and what she is doing or if she really loves him or just provides affection to him because she feels guilty about hurting him.

The fact that she feels guilty is another example that shows that she knows what she is doing. She isn't oblivious to the effects it has on Tristan or her family, she has mentioned as much to him, yet she continues to disrespect him by seeing the OM and regardless of what she says to him, she doesn't respect him. You can't say you respect someone but continue to hurt them and do things to them that are hurtful.

We teach children at an early age that we say sorry when we do things that are considered wrong but we also teach them that saying sorry and repeating those same actions isn't the right thing to do, sometimes saying sorry isn't enough, we have to learn to do better.

When he shows that he truly respects himself, she will respect him and it won't happen before then. Respect & love are tied closely together and without respect, there can be no love - this much I'm certain of.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - not sure how to handle it - 08/19/09 08:12 PM
Hmm, actually, it is entirely possible for someone who qualifies for a clinical diagnosis (major depression, bi-polar, anxiety, whatever) to still be functional in a work environment. In fact, it is common.

I would be hesitant about using her alleged competence at work as a gauge of her overall mental state. That assessment is probably best left to her husband (who sees her in the home environment every day) and to the appropriate mental health professionals.
As usual, Robx nails it beautifully.

Puppy
Originally Posted By: tristan
Wow. I had just caught up on everything. Obviously, if you read my whole thread; my wife does not need to be "taken". And although, I believe this can be done in a respectful way. Way too many men take this mentallity to the extreme. I know way too many women's lives have been devastated by men's behavior that believe this perverted ideal that "Women want it."

And now something that happened 20 years ago is not only impacting my W's life; but it is impacting mine and our 2 lovely daughter's lives. One man's desire for a few seconds of pleasure has far reaching effects. However, I am sure a beast like that would not care.

Now robx. I am not comparing you to my wife's rapist. But had you know her entire life's story, I think you would agree with me that "being taken" is definitely not what she needs.

By the way, although sometimes my massages do become sexual; I never assume it. I give W foot massages for a couple of reasons:
1. because she will often put on the foot lotion herself anyway.
2. It is a good time to have a conversation.




God Bless you Tristan. Can't tell you how much THIS post touched me. As I said on Orich's thread once, half jokingly, "Can a guy just give me a back rub without it leading to ML?" The guys pretty much said "NO WE CAN"T! We are men..." smile

I had a back surgery in 2001 and the physical therapist said to get massages for 20-30 min PER DAY and yet "No ML" for the month post surgery and I recall thinking, "well THAT Phys Therapy won't happen" b/c h was literally not capable of a massage for more than 5 min without it going elsewhere... AND truthfully, 20 min USUALLY WOULD put me in the mood, but sometimes, I just want to feel healing and not think of "are the doors locked, the kids asleep? Laundry, dogs? Will he take enough time so we BOTH enjoy it since he could only massage me for 5 min?" and lastly, I used to feel a little hurt and thought "Can h just show me physical affection without something in it for himself?"

But when I see it as something NOT necessarily leading to ML, IT IS, ironically, a turn on. That's b/c it's NOT manipulation YET it IS affection and healing...make sense?

And the point about "women wanting to be taken" is something I heard on a "how to" tape written by a man, from 25 years ago about sex and it turned me off big time. I have not been raped but came pretty close to it, and had to climb out a window to avoid it and was told "relax" about 5 times before the idiot went to get me a drink so I could run home 3 miles in the dark, thank you very much....but aside from that, it has a possessiveness abnd objectivisation about it that Hollywood perpetuates. Kind of like how sometimes Indiana Jones slaps the girl and THEN kisses her and she lets him?
That always irritates me. Or slaps the woman TO CALM HER DOWN!! laugh

Um, that is NOT what would put ME in the moood....yeah, slap me around and I'll get super romantic...

Having said that, there IS a certain level of passion and lust that MAYBE is what was intended by that comment. Don't know. But I DO know people should read your whole thread to comment.

I have read yours. Your wife has big issues tristan and God bless you for seeing them. Listen to the shrink. Your w has NOT been "stable" for very long and you want to have this big confrontation? I mean at some point you will have to. But yeah, timing IS everything....and OM IS a jerk of course. If you do confront him, you can say among other things that YES THERE IS A CHANCE FOR YOUR M and he's trying to take that away b/c he blew his own m....what type of man does this to a woman switching meds with kids and a h who loves her at home? A cad....that's what type. Shame on him.

Kudos to you for owning your insecurities about the job promotion your w got. I'm sorry you were weak in that area and selfish but you seem to get that now. BTW MOST m's report their least happy times after the birth of the 2nd child, so you have that factor NOT in your favor but it IS normal, AND she was working full time, like I was. And that was a tough time to like being m for me too, as h was very busy at work and NOT as helpful at home as he should have been AND I had a stressful job as a full time trial L and was a mom with 2 little ones. VERY HARD LIFE and it seemed all h did was go to work, work hard as heck THERE and come home...and study or sleep b/c of sleep deprivation. He did this for years and years. We lived "married singles' lives" for years. I worked hard as heck 24/7...never got "off my shift and was always on call"...

As you can tell by the signature though, we are a success story. No not all our problems are solved, but we will remain married and committed to making and keeping it a happy one.

I only claimed the Div "Busted" a few weeks ago b/c I was not totally sure until then. We were reconciled, and in piecing for over 18 months but forgiveness was a bigger struggle than I expected (on both ends ironically) and etc etc. NO hijack intended....(also did Retrovaille and found it VERY helpful, fyi.)

You will get conflicting advice here. But it IS supposed to be in line with the DB principles and if not, imo, posters should go elsewhere to post. I mean only that if someone is arguing against DB, I don't know why they are here on this site. But it happens.

You are on track but a bit impatient about the medical issues. I mean those meds take time. At least she's working on getting THAT better. ANy chance she'd switch jobs? I mean SOON, rather than later?

It wouldn't totally = confronting IF that is not something the shrink thinks is a good idea but it WOULD lower HER stress level. What about her staying at home with the kids awhile? A vacation too? She needs to reconnect with YOU and disconnect from the stressers..../snakes, etc.

just a thought...
j-
Originally Posted By: Dia
Hmm, actually, it is entirely possible for someone who qualifies for a clinical diagnosis (major depression, bi-polar, anxiety, whatever) to still be functional in a work environment. In fact, it is common.

I would be hesitant about using her alleged competence at work as a gauge of her overall mental state. That assessment is probably best left to her husband (who sees her in the home environment every day) and to the appropriate mental health professionals.


Dia you're correct, the possibility exists that she has mental problems, I think I even wrote in my post, "correct me if I'm wrong". But when I read blurbs about depression, bi-polar, anxiety, etc. I notice that no one ever questions that how in some social settings, people afflicted with these issues seem to be able to switch off their problems: they can function easily, happily, without any problems. As a social worker, she would know that these issues if they are serious require attention by the correct professionals and may even involve medication. However if they use these same issues as crutches and get out of jail cards so that they can do what they want and have excuses for their behaviors, it's not acceptable.

If you have the ability to function and be normal & happy with certain people, that means you are able to control these issues enough that it doesn't bother you. If you can pursue an intimate/romantic relationship with another person while you have a spouse at home, you are able to switch off your issues long enough to enjoy yourself and then conveniently flick back the switch when you get home so that you can get some sympathy & understanding for your poor behavior & actions, it would appear that you can control it.

Depression, bi-polar, anxiety - these are usually things you can't control and require therapy and sometimes medication.

If I see someone flipping a switch and becoming affected/unaffected by these issues when it's convenient to them, it would seem to me that something else is at play here: specifically lying & untrustworthy actions & behavior.

I don't think it's totally unreasonable that guilt could be motivating any & all of her actions. Something else to consider.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/19/09 10:16 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
As I said on Orich's thread once, half jokingly, "Can a guy just give me a back rub without it leading to ML?" The guys pretty much said "NO WE CAN"T! We are men..." smile


Touching between spouses tends to lead to that.

Can a guy (I'm assuming your husband) give you a backrub without it leading to ML?

Yes.

Can your husband just have sex with you without having to give you a backrub?

Maybe he's been trained to believe that you won't give him sex any other way unless he does something for you. Maybe he feels thats the only way he can get some from you? Maybe/maybe not?

Is that possible to?
All:

Let me add a little more history. At age 8, W was forced to take care of demented grandmother after school while her mom and dad worked. This means cooking, feeding, and cleaning up after her. One afternoon her grandmother has a fit, as often demented people will and throws a full bedpan across the bedroom. W calls for her father to help get control of the situation. She then watches her father beat her grandmother to near unconciousness and then be arrested for the assault. A 9 year old girl believes that this is all her fault.

Her mother leaves her dad and moves a couple thousand miles away with W. W enjoys the summer in new area and eagerly awaits starting in new school. A few days before school starts, mom and dad reconcile, mom moves back to live with dad. To this day, my W has no recolection of that next year. She does not remember a teacher, a school room, a birthday. Nothing.

I bring this up, because she has now had to men whom she trusts (her dad and boyfriend) really betray her. No it is not an excuse for her behavior. But it gives me pause to offer a lot more mercy.

Now on to her bipolar. Bipolar is simply having extemes on both ends of the mood spectrum. The person goes through periods of exteme happiness or irritability followed by periods of severe depression. The psych believes that she was in a long period of normalcy or hypo-mania when we were dating and first married. Everything was great for her. The psych then believes she went through the depressive stage during the times I was acting selfishly. You could see how all this would cause a severe doubting of the marriage. Throw in my behavior and the fact that her subconcious is telling her that men will always let her down. I can understand why she would begin to psychologically detach and protect herself.

This is when OM swoops in to take him under his wing. Remember, he is her manager. He applaudes her extra efforts at work. Praises her for a great job. He was doing everything I was not. I am not excusing her attraction to him, but I can certainly understand it. She is getting promotions and moving up in the workplace; she enters a new state of hypomania (hypomaniacs make very productive employees).

However, hypomania also brings impulsivity. This was great when W and I were dating. It makes life interesting and fun. Yet, it is not so good when W is secretly trying to keep the caps on a burgening EA; especially when the snake is promoting the feelings and H is absent.

Now, W finds herself in the midst of a full blown EA and the depression sets in. This time it is bad. She gets scared and runs herself to the ER because she is afraid she is going to harm herself. They diagnose her with major depression and prescribe antidepressants. This is this past December.

Now antidepressants alone have a detrimental affect on bipolars. It causes them to rapid-cycle; this is when their moods swing from one extreme to another in very short periods of time (hours to days; and I swear I somtimes saw it change 3 or 4 times in one conversation). I was ignorant, I had no idea what was going on for 4 months. I think both her and I thought she might be schizophrenic at one time. She was seeing illusions and at times quite paranoid.

Finally, the psych saw what was going on and changed her meds in early June. This seemed to get her stable for a short period of time in July, before she had a severe allergic reaction to the meds and had to be immediately taken off them. Psych meds are usually titrated up and down in dosage for a reason. When W was taken off these, it started a whole new round of instability. Of which she seems to be subsiding now. During this time, she has quit her job, planned to move (primarilly to get away from other man), got scared, asked for her job back, and decided to stay.

We have not had a really long stable period of time to work on things. I think what Robx is suggesting is considered the LRT. I think I owe her and myself more time on the other techniques before moving onto the Last Resort. Truthfully, I will feel better if she comes back under my gentle touch than my ultimatum. Don't get me wrong, either way I will be happy.

As for my self-respect. I think I determine that. I can respect myself even while my wife struggles with this. I am proud of the way I am handling the situation right now; that is what counts.

As for being clingy. You may be right. But I have heard that 90% of communication is body-language. The times I have asked for affection, I genuinely believed she was hoping I would show it. When I was clingy (and I very much was), she would always ask: "Are you doing this for yourself or are you doing it for me?" Then I was doing it for me. However, I believe last night and this morning I was doing it because I thought she wanted it. And I think her reactions showed that she did.

I have more to say on this. But not much time. I will continue tomorrow.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/19/09 10:45 PM
Tristan,

None of us here, regardless of whatever qualifications we have offline, are able to diagnose, assess or undiagnose your W's mental stability. If you do some research on various meds, it can take 1-4 months for the levels to become optimal depending on the person and the med, and that's assuming you get the correct mix and the proper dosage right off the bat. Additionally, all of us, with mental issues or without, function better in certain environments and worse in others. As an example, consider that many of us welcome the workday because it's a place where we feel competent and it's such a good distraction from our marriage issues.

There's a lot of good advice on these boards regarding how to handle various aspect of a troubled marriage, but we are all amatuers here, amateurs and peers. On the issue of whether or not your W is in a strong enough place to handle an ultimatum, please do not rely on any of us (including me! - though I will say straight out that I don't know if she is or not). Please rely on your own knowledge of your W and on licensed mental health professionals with direct, personal knowledge of her, you and your sitch.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - not sure how to handle it - 08/19/09 10:49 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan


As for my self-respect. I think I determine that.


Yes. YOU. Do.

Hear, hear!

Edit: BTW, I see you already know the stuff about getting the meds right, titrating the dosage, etc. Hope I didn't sound pedantic. smile If so, I didn't mean to.
Journaling:

Wednesday:
Conversation after work.

...
M: "So how was the appnt with the psych"
W: "It was good. I guess. He raised the dosage on my meds. He is trying to get me back to where I was in July."
M: "You felt better then?"
W: "Yes. I guess. A little bit. It should also help with the restlessness."
M: "It's good that he thinks you can still get a little better."
W: "Yes. That's Good."
M: "Did he have anything else to say?"
W: "He is really trying. He says that I should not make a big decission without finding the source of my ambivalence towards it."
<pause>
W: "I opened a checking account today."
<I was a little taken back, but kept composure>
M: "OK"
W: "I thought we had more money in savings" <with a tint of mistrust>
M: "That account is not with our bank. It is with an online brokerage. We can look at it tonight if you like."
W: "Oh. OK."
...


In our room. After girls went to bed. Wife brings up a pen and paper to ask about where our financials are. I let her know everything, it is very awkward.

...
W: "This is so surreal" - not sure if she said surreal or unreal
M: "What?"
W: "A part of me can't believe this is happening. Another says I need to do it."
M: "What part can't believe it?"
W: "I don't know."
M: "Why do you feel you need to do it?"
W: "To be happy."
M: "And how will this obtain that?"
<pause>
W: "I think it may help us."
M: "How?"
W: "I want to miss you. I want to want you. I want to feel."
M: "Did you feel this morning?"
W: "Yes, but I didn't feel like I was in love with you."
...
M: "Are you in love with yourself?"
W: "No. You know that. I can't stand myself."
M: "Then you are not going to be happy. No matter where you live."
...
W: "Let's go to sleep."
W kisses me.
W: "You are a good kisser. I will miss that."

I stay up and read for a little bit. She falls asleep on her side, I on mine. We wake up on my side of the bed together.

Thursday morning:
M: "I was thinking. If we are going to do this. Can we do it without leasing another house. It will be financially difficult and stressful on our marriage. DO You think you could ask to see if you can live with a friend for a few months?"
W: "No. I will not abandon the girls."

We discuss the possibility of her living in the guestroom and taking turns of being in charge of the girls, but live our seperate lives.

W: "I am doing this to find the source of my ambivalence. I did a decision matrix and it tilted heavily in favor of seperation."
M: "May I see it?"
W: "Yes. I will bring it home tonight."
...
< the converstation had gone in a direction where I was frustrated >
M: "Did you talk to OM yesterday?" - I know this was a stupid mistake.
W: "Yes. I talk to him everyday."
...
W: "I would like an opportunity to explore a relationship with him."
M: "Then you need to go. You are blatantly breaking our vows. You need to go." - at this point I was angry
W: "You are right I need to go."
M: "You might as well start looking for places. You can do it tomorrow instead of coming to my work picnic."
W: "Are you going to take the girls."
M: "Yes. I can take your mom too."
W: "OK"

Very little was said after that. This was the first time we left without saying much of anything to each other in a long while. I called her on the way to work and left a voicemail:
"I am angry and I am guessing you have some negative feelings right now as well. But I ask that we not do anything rash. Please don't contact a lawyer or sign a lease before we have a chance to cool off and able to talk about it rationally. Thank you. See you tonight."

I feel pretty bad right now. I am dissappointed in myself for losing my cool.

Any advice on how to handle these next couple of days is appreciated.

Thanks.
You have the right to get angry, I don't think you should feel bad. She's so absorbed in her own confusion, she needs to know that she's affecting you. There's nothing wrong with that.

I don't have any advice...but I think something that seems to be happening with her is that she thinks she needs to be "alone" as in living apart from you and OM to figure out "the source of her ambivalence." She's made comments that her mother thinks she needs to get away from OM (so that's good, her mom seems to see the situation for what it really is, that he is influencing her).

So... she feels constant confusion depending on who she's talking to...there's you, OM, mom, psych. at a minimum. She probably changes her mind 10 times a day. I remember times I wished I could just separate from my H just to be alone and have the pressure off of me so I could think. You don't sound like him though, but she could still maybe be feeling that way.

Her doctor is trying to get her to get to the bottom of her feelings, and maybe she thinks she can't do that when she is reacting to everything around her. She said it herself, she hates herself, and you're right. She won't be happy with you or with him or by herself until she solves that. Even if she dumps him, turns back to you...you still have a big foundational problem if she remains like that. As I said, this current situation with the OM is a symptom of her problems not the cause.

Also realize there's an element of her thinking it's probably too late considering what SHE'S done.

anyway, I have to get to work...have a good day and don't be so hard on yourself. I bet you are usually too hard on yourself! Have you found an IC yet?
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - not sure how to handle it - 08/20/09 02:52 PM
Ok, well now that the cat is out of the bag, you need to stick to it and not back down w/o a major concession from her re: OM. The only caveat there is the possibility of allowing input from her psych to take precedence.

Here's advice from my own sitch - even if the two of you separate, do *not* file right away. Yes, a divorce takes time but having lawyers in the mix accelerates things both in terms of timeline and in terms of acrimony. Filing should not be done out of hurt and/or anger, which is what I did. A trial sep may give both of you what you need.

Here's something else I have been trying to wrap words around: When a woman has been sexually abused, she develops a very good radar for other sexual abusers, and abusers develop a good radar for malleable, potential victims. You would think the victims would use this radar to stay away from the abusers, but sometimes there is an unholy attraction. Yes, at some level we know precisely what X person is. But it's like rubbernecking on at an accident on the freeway. We can't not look. The subjective experience is a sick feeling deep in the pit of the stomach and a deep down knowledge that this will go badly. But intellectually, we allow ourselves to be convinced by the abuser's words, flattery, etc.

Things get especially muddy when a woman finds herself responding to an abuser's overtures with sexual arousal. That sends her on a real fast e-ticket ride to involuntary surrendering of control to the abuser. It happens quickly and insidiously. She may feel a very odd 'watching from outside her body' kind of thing. Her life with you and the children may feel unreal, as if she's watching it on TV more than living it.

A lot of people say that abused women must *want* to be abused, must think they don't deserve any better otherwise they would just leave (speaking entirely of OM here, not you)- but its NOT that clear cut. The subjective experience is not one of "Oh, I'm just worthless so I deserve this."

I'm treading on thin ice here - you may already know this or have no wish to hear it. If you want me to continue, I htink I'll leave it to you to let me know.

Here's one last thought - if you strongly believe that W is falling under the sway of a sexual predator, say this very directly to her psych - not just an OM, but a sexual predator. Perhaps the three of you (you, her, psych) should discuss the idea of in-patient treatment until her meds are fully optimized.
Going way back:


"You aren't suggesting that I confront the OM; are you? I have no idea what I would say."

If it were me, how about "What are your intentions with my wife? You are interfering with my family and I will do everything in my power to project my family."

Then I would call his wife or girlfriend or whatever and tell her what is going on.

Then I would write a letter, send it certified, to the human relations department of her work and inform them of what is going on between these two. Remind them about the possible sexual harassment issues that this relationship might cause. Ask them what they intend to do about the situation.

Yes your wife has issues, but the major issue for your marriage is this stain that she works with. You need to stop this.

But this is just me.
Originally Posted By: tristan

M: "Did you talk to OM yesterday?" - I know this was a stupid mistake.
W: "Yes. I talk to him everyday."
...
W: "I would like an opportunity to explore a relationship with him."
M: "Then you need to go. You are blatantly breaking our vows. You need to go." - at this point I was angry
W: "You are right I need to go."
M: "You might as well start looking for places. You can do it tomorrow instead of coming to my work picnic."

I feel pretty bad right now. I am dissappointed in myself for losing my cool.



I can't say I didn't see this coming.
I'm not sure how you're able to document your conversations in such a detailed way (do you record via voice recorder?) but if they're as accurate as you lay them out here, I really did telegraph this a while back, especially with the mention of the open apartment the other day and other such nonsense and doing all of this, ie. having an affair, to "make our relationship better"?!

Don't feel bad, your reaction wasn't bad, it was called for, you were probably calmer than I was if your description was accurate. Putting your foot down and setting boundaries is the requirement.

Couple things, the financial stress you mentioned: please don't fall into the trap of thinking that you have to finance her new place - you don't, part of leaving you and exploring a relationship with the OM is going to involve her having to take care of those finances. If she currently earns more than you do, another part of that reality may involve her paying you for child support. If you checked out SP's thread, his wife tried to make him fall into the trap of not requesting child support because she made more money than him and because he was a man and it's just not a manly thing to do to have your wife "support" you, that was her consequence for her action, he didn't fall for it, it affects her now more than she anticipated, her affair ended and I believe she is now pursuing SP for marriage counselling and possibly dating and he's detached so much now that he's feeling like a WAS now that she is starting to pursue him.

I'm going to say it again, you didn't do anything wrong.

Since you have had this much conversation with your wife and you are finally putting boundaries in place, maybe you can fit in something else. Maybe mention to her that you are now confused about your relationship with her, how easy it is for her leave the marriage to pursue a relationship with the OM. What are her thoughts on you starting to date other women, if anything to examine the feelings she's experiencing with the OM from a first-hand perspective. Ask her what her feelings are about that? Will her response be: "that's a good idea" or "you are just trying to hurt me the way I'm hurting you".

If it's no big deal to her if you start to date other women while she pursues a relationship with the OM, that may be indicative of her overall feelings towards you, maybe she checked out of this marriage a long time ago and she's just been going through the motions to see if it was possible to rekindle her feelings for you and it hasn't happened.

And don't get me started on that crap script line of her, the "... Love you but I'm not IN LOVE WITH YOU...". I swear that must be the first line in the WAS script book, first page in said book commands you to learn that line, rehearse and say it often because it has so much meaning. NOT!

Anyone ever ask what that line means.
"I love you, but I'm not IN LOVE with you", I'll tell you it isn't about love at all, it's the difference between 2 specific states neither of which are love.
It says I care about you but I'm not excited about you and I'm looking for this excitement that is so elusive. Caring is a good thing, it means you show concern but I wouldn't call concern the same thing as love. You can be concerned about the person in the news who was in some wicked car accident and you hope they'll recover ok but you don't love that person.

Being excited about someone is a good thing but it's not love either. It would be exciting for me to meet Bill Gates or Brad Pitt or Anjolina Jolie (very exciting to meet Anjolina), president of United States, etc. but I wouldn't call it love.

When the WAS uses that script, they seem to think that they know about two different loves but I would say they don't know much about love and are really very confused about what love means and it's probably why they're having an affair, thinking they'll find exciting "love". Say the WAS leaves the present spouse, divorces, hooks up with the new spouse, in most cases I guarantee that this person will wake up a few years later feeling the same feelings except they'll be lying next to a different body in their bed and wondering how they ended up in this mess all over again.

ILYBINILWY.... the infamous WAS script.
It's a cop out. It really means that this person has no clue how to make their marriage last, so they're leaving their marriage, pursuing an affair with another person to experience the short-term high of excitement which inevitably always wears off. Nothing is new forever, eventually they'll be saying the same thing to the other person if that person doesn't tell it to them first.

The unfortunate thing Tristan is that you are too close to her to make her understand any of this, she can't believe you even if you tell her the sky is blue, if the OM tells her it's orange, she'll believe him over you. That's the state she's in.

She (your wife) needs a wake up call, ask her what she thinks about you dating other women now that you are separated to try and experience what she is going through right now and your excuse is that you are seeing if that experience will make your marriage better or if it will open your eyes to the fact that maybe this separation and eventual divorce is really a good idea after all.

Whatever you do, you will hopefully not compete with the OM anymore.
Originally Posted By: Esox
Going way back:


"You aren't suggesting that I confront the OM; are you? I have no idea what I would say."

If it were me, how about "What are your intentions with my wife? You are interfering with my family and I will do everything in my power to project my family."

Then I would call his wife or girlfriend or whatever and tell her what is going on.

Then I would write a letter, send it certified, to the human relations department of her work and inform them of what is going on between these two. Remind them about the possible sexual harassment issues that this relationship might cause. Ask them what they intend to do about the situation.

Yes your wife has issues, but the major issue for your marriage is this stain that she works with. You need to stop this.

But this is just me.


I never even thought of that,
considering her recent promotions which were no doubt given to her by the OM (I think he's her manager) or he helped influence the decisions leading to her promotions coupled with the fact that they're having an affair - there seems to be a conflict of interest. If that happened where I work and people found about it, I'm sure there would be enough of a stink to cause a few people to get fired and with the economy being what it is, not having a job is definitely a thing to worry about.

Be careful though, getting someone fired may not necessarily make you look that great. Control those actions and the anger you must be feeling because of all this, anger tends to have a way of clouding a person's judgement into performing knee jerk reactions.
This man would be doing nothing to get anyone fired. Tristan would be informing a company that one of their managers and his direct report (who happens to be married) are having an affair. This is verboten in most companies because of the possibility of a sexual harassment suit. The employer can take any action that they deem necessary to protect themselves. And if the Company decided it was in their interest to terminate one or both of these people, well there are consequences for behavior. The truth of the affair isn't the problem. The problem is the affair itself.

I would fight this with my last breath.
Yes, inform the company if they work together with your wife as subordinate.

Your reaction was normal, and really what should have happened, rather than falling back later on the "let's not do anything hasty here". You must be a sucker for punishment the way you have R talks almost every day. Is that the new DB, cuz the one I'm aware of says NOT to have R talks. Your wife basically said she wants to explore the relationship with OM....if next time she'll more blatantly say, "I'd like to have sex with him", are you going to keep doing the "nice guys finish first" thing?
Originally Posted By: Phoenixdeux
Yes, inform the company if they work together with your wife as subordinate.

Your reaction was normal, and really what should have happened, rather than falling back later on the "let's not do anything hasty here". You must be a sucker for punishment the way you have R talks almost every day. Is that the new DB, cuz the one I'm aware of says NOT to have R talks. Your wife basically said she wants to explore the relationship with OM....if next time she'll more blatantly say, "I'd like to have sex with him", are you going to keep doing the "nice guys finish first" thing?


I know everyone is saying "be kind & sensitive to her because of her past sexual abuse trauma". Listen I'm not going to downplay the traumatic event for what it was, I also have alot of personal experience with this myself and if I heard correctly she is a social worker so she herself may have more than just a clue on the treatment & therapy required by people dealing with these issues. Successful treatment in this area is not long term covering several years, it's shorter 6months to maybe 2years, anything longer reinforces the role of the victim and makes it harder to shake loose those ideas & "programming".

Anywho.... using those events and that history as a crutch for specific behaviors that are being played out now is wrong. When you use a crutch for your behavior you saying that you're not responsible for your actions, I was abused as a child, this happened to me so I do this now, etc. etc.

If she is depressed, she is on meds and they appear to helping her from what I've read.

The depression didn't stop her from seeking out the OM, it isn't stopping her from wanting to pursue a relationship with him and everything else associated with it.

Tristan is playing the overly nice guy/supportive husband role and to be honest it doesn't work that well especially in this particular situation when you're at odds with your spouse.

Can we all be honest here about this. If Tristan's representations of their conversations are accurate and we can assume he's been working this super sweet, nice, supportive spouse role as well as any of us could ever have done in his shoes - it's safe to assume that it isn't working, she's pulling away even further.

During their conversations, she continues to admit openly that she continues to see the OM, have meals with, wants to pursue a relationship with him, if she feels guilty, she looks towards Tristan for a reaction and gets "it's ok, I'll still love you and support you even if you walk all over my heart".

Is anyone else reading that much so far or is it really just me that sees this.

He is communicating (or was up until recently) that i'll be here while you get to have your fantasy life with the OM, while you get to pursue a romantic, intimate, possibly sexual relationship with the OM, I'll be here with all the love in my heart waiting for you when you return and in the end, somehow all of this will make us a stronger couple.

How does this make them a stronger couple?
How does tolerating your wife's affair make you a stronger couple?

Anyone chime in and explain that to me because I must be too dumb to understand how any of this will benefit their marriage?

Tristan telling her it was time to look for a place of her own was the right thing to do, no matter how much it broke your heart, it wouldn't have felt any better to have conversations with your wife that went like: "Did you see the OM today? Yes, I went to that apartment he mentioned and we made love. You must hate me for what I'm doing to you. I'm trying to get those 'in love' feelings for you and maybe by being with the OM in this affair I can generate those feelings - I don't know how I will do this but I'm thinking it might work."

It can't possibly work and by Tristan continuing to take what I would call abuse at this point after reading their conversations, all he has illustrated clearly to her is that he is a doormat, I can walk all over you and wipe my feet on you, break your heart but you'll still love me anyways.

How can she possibly respect him as her husband and as a man when she can treat him like this and he doesn't set boundaries that stop her from doing so?

And if she can't respect him, how can she love him?
Women don't love men that they can control easily, they usually end up hurting & disrespecting men that they can control easily.

If she knows he'll be there waiting for her, she'll take her sweet time "finding herself", if he tells her he is questioning his commitment to the marriage because of how she let go of him so easily and is considering seeing other women to experience the same feelings she is experiencing, it will throw the situation in reverse. Up until now this has been her decision, this has been under her control, she has done anything she wanted to do up until this point without any restriction & boundaries to deal with.

Tristan when you called her later to tell her not to make hasty decisions, you flinched. You setup a boundary and then you were quick to pull it back down for fear of losing her and in doing so you communicate your fear of loss to her, something she doesn't currently feel for you.

You can continue giving her as much time in the world and be the nicest guy in the world, kind & understand & sensitive but time isn't going to fix this anytime soon and those other qualities aren't going to help as much either.

This is a very interesting thread, Tristan I still think you have what it takes to pull this thing around. She is attracted to this OM because he exhibits very attractive qualities, and while you may possess some attractive qualities of your own, you also have some very unattractive qualities.

The OM wouldn't be afraid to lose your wife - he is secure in everything he is doing, you don't communicate that as much and insecurity is a huge attraction killer. You communicate your insecurity by not setting up boundaries which determine how people including your wife can treat you. You started today to do this, I applaud you (about !@#$Z%* time!) but then you were quick to call her to not be hasty in her actions, don't worry about her actions, she has free will, she can do whatever she wants and you wouldn't be able to stop her either way. Detach, move on, GAL, and yes... the dreaded "D" word... DATE. Let her contact you, don't contact her, start limiting your communication with her, focus on being a great parent and a great person for yourself, first & foremost and start doing things that work.
Originally Posted By: robx
During their conversations, she continues to admit openly that she continues to see the OM, have meals with, wants to pursue a relationship with him, if she feels guilty, she looks towards Tristan for a reaction and gets "it's ok, I'll still love you and support you even if you walk all over my heart".

Is anyone else reading that much so far or is it really just me that sees this.


This part, I see too.


Even before robx posted this, I couldn't shake the niggling gut feeling (based on your conversations as reported) that she's looking for you to set a boundary for her, "make her" stop seeing OM.

Obviously, my gut feeling is worth what you paid for it. But it's something to consider. Might she be feeling so torn and not wanting to "hurt" either you or the OM that she just wants someone to make the decision for her?

All that notwithsatnding, if her IC is worth his/her salt, she will be advised to put off making ANY of these life-altering decisions until she is fully stabilized on her meds for a time. By the same token, while I am sensible to some of robx's points, pushing her into a decision when her brain chemistry is in flux is unlikely to be in anyone's best interest.
Originally Posted By: robx


Is anyone else reading that much so far or is it really just me that sees this.




It's not just you.

Puppy
Robx.

You are right. I am weak right now. I became clingy last night and this morning. Last night we slept apart, I felt I was becoming nearly suicidal; it hurt that bad. I know that I need to move on. I need to let go and let her find her own way.

Yesterday was a horrible day for me. I called OM W (she is still W, they can't agree on child custody). I asked if he was abusive, she said no. Not physically, sexually, or emotionally. Of course, she was emotionally hurt by him; but was not abused. So that puts that to rest. However, in the conversation I let it slip that W was bipolar (I can't believe how I let that out). Long story short, W found out and was angry.

She has called a lawyer and asked for a dissolution, not a seperation. A couple of things on her mental state: she said she was extrememly depressed when she talked to the psych. This was 2 days after what she still admits to be a very happy weekend. She said her IC discovered yesterday that her mood is very flat. That a dissolution should bring out a rather intense emotion and she says she feels very little emotion right now. She says she just feels numb. She says she thinks it stared with the change of med dosage on Tuesday; but that seems awfully quick.

I talked a little more to her this morning and said do you notice that you are almost always happy on the weekends and irritable and distant during the week. She looked at me puzzled and said no, but I think you are right. That is something to look into. As she left she says, "You are smart and so darn handsome."

This morning we were exchanging for the shower. I noticed she checked me out. I went over and kissed her; I think she tried to resist but couldn't. "Why do you do that?" she said afterward.

On the way out we hugged and I asked for a kiss again (I really need to stop). She did but with no passion. Then said "I am just as confused as you are."
M: "Confussion is no reason to make these decissions."
W: "Please don't."

This is so hard. I know I really screwed up. How does one stop obsessing about this?
Originally Posted By: tristan
... This morning we were exchanging for the shower. I noticed she checked me out. I went over and kissed her; I think she tried to resist but couldn't. "Why do you do that?" she said afterward.

On the way out we hugged and I asked for a kiss again (I really need to stop). She did but with no passion. Then said "I am just as confused as you are."
M: "Confussion is no reason to make these decissions."
W: "Please don't."

This is so hard. I know I really screwed up. How does one stop obsessing about this?


Well admitting that this is hard is the first step.
It is hard, very hard, probably one of the most difficult things you'll ever have to go through.

You are screwing up: no more kissing, no more hugging, no more reaching out to her for affection, you mentioned it yourself, there is no passion or feeling in her kisses & hugs. She is now resisting your kisses, do you see she knows the power & hold she has over you, never mind the spoken word, body language is much more powerful & revealing. She is also toying with you, looking at you to get a rise from you, saying words like "handsome" to give you a false sense of security and then she pulls the floor out from underneath you. Plus when you reach out for her to get her affection you are communicating your insecurity of losing her....

STOP DOING THIS!!!

BTW - you don't have to agree to dissolution, you can agree to separation if she wants it.

Stop pursuing her.

If you do end up talking later, refuse the urge to cling to her, clingy men are the most unattractive men. If she starts talking about the separation again, tell her that maybe she is right - yes throw the monkey wrench into this, agree with her. Tell her you don't like how any of this has made you feel, that you've been wrestling with this inside your head and maybe you need to discover what you want from a partner because currently your needs aren't being met and be honest about this, your needs currently aren't being met - how could they be while she is having an affair with the OM. You wouldn't be clingy if your needs were being met, you wouldn't be insecure if you had everything you needed. Tell her that for you to understand what she is going through, you need to detach emotionally from her and go through the same discovery process and date other women and see what it's like to have feelings for someone else. Tell her all this and gauge her response and don't focus on the spoken word, focus on her body language: look at her eyes when you tell her this, does she maintain eye contact and look away first? Look at her body when you are telling her these things, does she fidget and move alot, are her arms crossed, is she standing straight & square with you or is she positioned with her side facing you? Body language is so much more important than any words she might be speaking - remember the WAS scripts, also remember that part of the affair process requires them to do a lot of lying & deceiving, don't call her on her lies, just know that it's part of her language right now to protect herself based on the things she is doing that make her feel guilty.

STOP BEING INSECURE!!!

No more hugs, no more kisses.

Yes I know it's hard, it will get alot harder... before it gets easier and it will get easier.

Those nearly suicidal feelings, I think it's normal to hurt so bad when someone you love so much is hurting you in this way. I'm not going to sweet talk you and tell you that these feelings will dissipate in a day, you may feel like this for several days & weeks. Regardless put your game face on and start considering all of this a game (yes a game you didn't choose to play but you are choosing to WIN) - don't display your hurt feelings to her, and don't you dare cry in front of her, pleading & begging to come back (seriously don't repeat this mistake that so many others end up doing, it pretty much solidifies the WAS's ideas that you aren't worth it to them, how can someone who has such low value be worthwhile to the WAS?)

Remember, you have to do things that are counter-intuitive.
No gifts, no presents, no clinging, no initiatings kisses, hugs, affection, no initiating conversations, emails, txts, no more of you being an open book.

The quicker you are able to implement these things, the better position you will be in to heal from these things, improve as a person and work on turning this thing around.

Tristan I believe you're smart enough and have the tools to get this thing turned around, I wouldn't have bothered posting "volumes" of posts on your thread if I didn't believe otherwise. But it's not enough for me to believe or anyone else on this forum to believe it, you have to believe this, really believe it and then get ready for the work that lies ahead.
Originally Posted By: tristan


This morning we were exchanging for the shower. I noticed she checked me out. I went over and kissed her; I think she tried to resist but couldn't. "Why do you do that?" she said afterward.


I'm wondering the same thing, Tristan. You KNOW the pursuing, needy/grabby behavior is the wrong move, and yet you continue to do it anyway??

Look, I know this is hard, but SELF-DISCIPLINE IS ESSENTIAL TO DBing! Without it, you're screwed.

You need to get some resolve. As Coach would say, "You can handle it."

Puppy
Originally Posted By: robx
She is now resisting your kisses, do you see she knows the power & hold she has over you, never mind the spoken word, body language is much more powerful & revealing. She is also toying with you, looking at you to get a rise from you, saying words like "handsome" to give you a false sense of security and then she pulls the floor out from underneath you.


Robx, I cannot tell you how deeply disturbing I find it that you would chip in like an all-wise deity with assessments like this about someone who is *diagnosed and being medicated for mental illness, and not mild depression either*. No, it doesn't "excuse" infidelity. But do ya think there just might be a chance that her responses might NOT fit neatly into a WAS script?

Tristan. Dude. This is a situation beyond the facile advice of anonymous people on the internet. You never deserved this -- nobody does -- and I feel deeply for you. For the sake of yourself and your whole family, I would urge you to seek the advice of a mental health professional. Both to gain (further) insight into your wife's condition and capabilities, the effects of her medications, etc, and to get some support to help keep *you* on an even keel during this horrible time. No, it's not fair, but you gotta be the adult here. Getting overly clingy, involving the OP's spouse, falling apart yourself ... frankly, you just can't afford to. Your kids need at least one parent to be stable. Get whatever help you need to get there. My prayers are with you.
I have an IC. It doesn't make things any easier.
What has/does your IC advise? (not that ICs are omniscient, either, but at least you know they have some formal education on the issues involved)
He still thinks she has some borderline tendencies and that I should consider removing myself from the relationship for my own health. After hearing how I felt about it, he said "You are not there yet."

He knows she is confused (he was our MC before she broke it off), but says she has to deal with her own issues. When I asked if she is thinking rationally, he said "It is rational to her.".
That borderline/bipolar diagnosis boundary can be a *bitch*; you don't know how much I feel for you based on some experiences of my own.

Given that her meds previously seemed to stabilize her until she had the allergic reaction ... my total nonprofessional advice would tend toward giving her as much time to stabilize on this med as you can stand. (I don't mean acting a-ok with OM or anything; she absolutely will have to deal with that herself at some point. Just not actively pushing her toward any major decision *at the moment*.) You're the only one who knows how much you can take.

Are you doing everything you can in the direction of self-care? Good nutrition/sleep/exercise? Like you said, taking care of yourself IS work. Don't underestimate the benefits of good physical maintenance on your mental/emotional state.

((((Tristan))))
Thank you Kettricken. I need all the support I can get.
Here is another resource, tristan. It might be helpful for you in trying to sort out your own feelings. I have this book, and it has helped ME a lot, (for one thing even though I go to Al Anon and love it, there is a portion of it that doesn't sit right with me, and he really gets into that as well, on the issue of detachment and what that means. And detachment is talked about a lot here but can be confusing to many)

http://tearsandhealing.com/

This guy was married to a borderline...although she didn't meet the criteria for a full diagnosis, she "just" had tendencies. But that can be enough.

One reason so many of us are continually saying that you want to make sure her meds are as stabilized as possible..is that it WILL give you a better picture of things. BPD CANNOT be treated with medication. Bipolar can. Of course, a person can also be both. crazy

I agree with Kettricken...all this stuff about exposure at work, etc etc..is getting off the real track of what's happening here. Why get dragged into or start a bunch of drama with unknown consequences when there is already enough drama to go around? One thing at a time. IMO. wink
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Originally Posted By: robx
She is now resisting your kisses, do you see she knows the power & hold she has over you, never mind the spoken word, body language is much more powerful & revealing. She is also toying with you, looking at you to get a rise from you, saying words like "handsome" to give you a false sense of security and then she pulls the floor out from underneath you.


Robx, I cannot tell you how deeply disturbing I find it that you would chip in like an all-wise deity with assessments like this about someone who is *diagnosed and being medicated for mental illness, and not mild depression either*. No, it doesn't "excuse" infidelity. But do ya think there just might be a chance that her responses might NOT fit neatly into a WAS script?

Tristan. Dude. This is a situation beyond the facile advice of anonymous people on the internet. You never deserved this -- nobody does -- and I feel deeply for you. For the sake of yourself and your whole family, I would urge you to seek the advice of a mental health professional. Both to gain (further) insight into your wife's condition and capabilities, the effects of her medications, etc, and to get some support to help keep *you* on an even keel during this horrible time. No, it's not fair, but you gotta be the adult here. Getting overly clingy, involving the OP's spouse, falling apart yourself ... frankly, you just can't afford to. Your kids need at least one parent to be stable. Get whatever help you need to get there. My prayers are with you.



Deeply disturbing, why?
You want to be deeply sympathetic towards his wife while she finds herself, has an affair with OM, asks for dissolution of marriage and uses her depression as a crutch for her behaviors.

I think she is doing most of the things that fit "neatly" into the WAS script. She feels guilty for what she's doing but still does it. The infamous "I love you but I'm not in love with you but I feel like I'm in love with the OM". The OM is exciting to me and you aren't. The need to separate & move out, flaunting & discussing her meetings with the OM, mention of a convenient "open apartment" that the OM has.

I guess I'm wrong, none of the above fits "neatly" into the WAS script, all of this stuff is pretty unique, I don't think we've heard any of this before.

Yes his wife has depression, possibly bi-polar, possibly anxiety. She's on medication. She is functional, she is still a parent, still an employee who apparently is excelling at work. She still sees the OM, she's even been juggling attempting to show affection for Tristan out of guilt while still admitting spending time with the OM and looking at Tristan for some sort of reaction from him, some type of leadership or boundary that says "enough is enough!". Since she is able to maintain all of these higher-level functions and on top of that willingly see a psychiatrist and discuss her feelings and her actions and it doesn't appear that she is suffering from memory loss at all during all of this, can we not grant her responsibility of her actions or is she really so incapacitated that we must take away all of her responsibility in this.

Am I allowed to still call her an adult even though her actions are immature and hurtful towards Tristan and their family? I think so but then again maybe that's me.

I'm not an all wise deity.
Am I an expert, nope.
I have spent the last 2 years of my life heavily investing in a personal education of human nature and psychology. I don't have my degree... yet ;-)

My opinions are just that, opinions.

Tristan appears to be asking for help.
Telling him to sympathize with his wife's conditions & actions while neglecting his own personal value & self-respect in all of this in MY opinion isn't helping him much.

I could say "Hang in there Tristan, in the end you'll still be the better person!"

Or I can give him some tough love (and it hasn't been that tough yet), a kick in the pants, help him up when he falls and show him how to help himself up when he falls again the next time. I can tell him when he's acting insecure and it's affects on himself and his wife and why he should stop it. I can offer him some insight on the education I wish I had 10 years ago. He can choose to use the information and he can choose to disregard it, he has free will, much like his wife.

Kettricken, reading the last few parts of your post, not sure what I said that was so different from what you posted.
Originally Posted By: tristan
He still thinks she has some borderline tendencies and that I should consider removing myself from the relationship for my own health. After hearing how I felt about it, he said "You are not there yet."

He knows she is confused (he was our MC before she broke it off), but says she has to deal with her own issues. When I asked if she is thinking rationally, he said "It is rational to her.".


It is rational to her.
She still knows right from wrong.
Her mental issues/state aside, she still knows what she is doing on some level is wrong but she continues to do it. It is very rational to her to pursue what she feels is love with this OM.

She is a WAW.
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Here is another resource, tristan. It might be helpful for you in trying to sort out your own feelings. I have this book, and it has helped ME a lot, (for one thing even though I go to Al Anon and love it, there is a portion of it that doesn't sit right with me, and he really gets into that as well, on the issue of detachment and what that means. And detachment is talked about a lot here but can be confusing to many)

http://tearsandhealing.com/

This guy was married to a borderline...although she didn't meet the criteria for a full diagnosis, she "just" had tendencies. But that can be enough.

One reason so many of us are continually saying that you want to make sure her meds are as stabilized as possible..is that it WILL give you a better picture of things. BPD CANNOT be treated with medication. Bipolar can. Of course, a person can also be both. crazy

I agree with Kettricken...all this stuff about exposure at work, etc etc..is getting off the real track of what's happening here. Why get dragged into or start a bunch of drama with unknown consequences when there is already enough drama to go around? One thing at a time. IMO. wink


What control does Tristan have over his wife's meds and making sure they are as stabilized as possible. I'm sure he has as much influence on that as he does on his wife's other actions. I've even known some women who will stop taking their "meds" (anti-depressants) because quite a few of those drugs tend to promote weight gain - WAW's with depression dealing with distorted body images would rather keep their weight gain to a minimum than take their required med's.

Unless you plan to have her hospitalized where she is force fed her med's, you have no control over her meds and her stabilization. Tristan you are also to close to her, don't bother mentioning anything that the IC told you, the doctor told you about her condition, etc. She will just consider it in some form or fashion a way of you trying to control her and get her back and this will drive her away even further.

She is in love with her feelings right now - this much I am sure of, she is in love with them so much that she will follow them to their ultimate conclusion whatever that is.

Tristan what you want and what you communicate to her are a polar opposite of her feelings and she will side with them over you any day of the week, at least that is how she currently feels.
Robx, probably part of what we have here is a failure to communicate in the same way. I get very twitchy when I hear statements framed as "she is doing x because of y/she will/she feels" or "You should/need to" etc instead of "she may be...." , "you might consider" etc.

Declarative statements of that nature, especially regarding a complex and indeed possibly dangerous situation we only hear one half of seem to me to betray a lamentable lack of humility and caution and can also be easily perceived as bullying a person who is understandably *desperate* for some, any, answer.

Although of course you are right to point out that Tristan is a grown man and can weigh all of our advice rationally while always remembering what he paid for it.

Regarding the meds, I don't think anyone is expecting Tristan to monitor her compliance. By his account, her physicians are still experimenting with correct dosage. These are psychoactive drugs, not get-out-of-infidelity-free sugar pills we're talking about here. This seems like a good time for watchful waiting, if he's able to endure and still maintain his own mental balance. IMHO.

We should probably bow out of the debate portion of the program now, as I think Tristan probably has enough drama in his home without worrying about it on his thread.
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
... We should probably bow out of the debate portion of the program now, as I think Tristan probably has enough drama in his home without worrying about it on his thread.


I agree!

I also believe we can agree on the fact that we all want the best for Tristan during this very trying time in his life.
Originally Posted By: robx


Tristan appears to be asking for help.
Telling him to sympathize with his wife's conditions & actions while neglecting his own personal value & self-respect in all of this in MY opinion isn't helping him much.

I could say "Hang in there Tristan, in the end you'll still be the better person!"

Or I can give him some tough love (and it hasn't been that tough yet), a kick in the pants, help him up when he falls and show him how to help himself up when he falls again the next time. I can tell him when he's acting insecure and it's affects on himself and his wife and why he should stop it. I can offer him some insight on the education I wish I had 10 years ago. He can choose to use the information and he can choose to disregard it, he has free will, much like his wife.


Rob, I was struck just now by just how closely the above describes my own general approach to helping others (or at least trying to) on these forums. I am often similarly called out as trying to be a "know-it-all." And I probably don't, as Kett suggests, take the time to couch my language with the softening "perhaps"s, "maybe"s and "have you considered"s that maybe I should.

We're all incredibly busy. We come here with some shred of free time that we have in our day to try to see if we can "pay it forward" and help someone else, and we all take different approaches and use different styles. I personally don't feel the need to do the "((((hugs!))))" thing, for the most part (I do sometimes), as there are so many others who do it better than I do, and it is perhaps even their ministry. I feel called more to "exhort," and call people -- especially men -- up to a stronger stand and a stronger standard, and encourage them to stop being a victim and try to get their power back in the relationship.

I think we all offer a good mix.

Puppy
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
... We should probably bow out of the debate portion of the program now, as I think Tristan probably has enough drama in his home without worrying about it on his thread.


I agree!

I also believe we can agree on the fact that we all want the best for Tristan during this very trying time in his life.


"Kum-ba-ya my Lorrrddd . . . kum-ba-yaaaaa . . . "
grin
Oh, *come on*! Where's a tongue-sticky-out smilie when you need one? You'll just have to imagine it, Choc (wink).

Robx, I agree. No bad motives here, just differing styles.
we need LOTS more smileys around here! I got spoiled over on FITO, what with all the little smileys swordfighting, puking, rolling their eyes, munching popcorn, etc.
Quote:
we need LOTS more smileys around here! I got spoiled over on FITO, what with all the little smileys swordfighting, puking, rolling their eyes, munching popcorn, etc.


Wait a minute! Puppy, you post somewhere else as well? When do you have time for that?
Reminds me of a scene on Cheers when they had a bowling league with all the taverns having a team. The Cheers team was bowling and Norm walked in the bowling alley and went straight into the bar. When he opened the door the crowd inside cheered "Norm!" To which Cliffy replied, "he's got a life of his own you know."

Cheers
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: robx


Tristan appears to be asking for help.
Telling him to sympathize with his wife's conditions & actions while neglecting his own personal value & self-respect in all of this in MY opinion isn't helping him much.

I could say "Hang in there Tristan, in the end you'll still be the better person!"

Or I can give him some tough love (and it hasn't been that tough yet), a kick in the pants, help him up when he falls and show him how to help himself up when he falls again the next time. I can tell him when he's acting insecure and it's affects on himself and his wife and why he should stop it. I can offer him some insight on the education I wish I had 10 years ago. He can choose to use the information and he can choose to disregard it, he has free will, much like his wife.


Rob, I was struck just now by just how closely the above describes my own general approach to helping others (or at least trying to) on these forums. I am often similarly called out as trying to be a "know-it-all." And I probably don't, as Kett suggests, take the time to couch my language with the softening "perhaps"s, "maybe"s and "have you considered"s that maybe I should.

We're all incredibly busy. We come here with some shred of free time that we have in our day to try to see if we can "pay it forward" and help someone else, and we all take different approaches and use different styles. I personally don't feel the need to do the "((((hugs!))))" thing, for the most part (I do sometimes), as there are so many others who do it better than I do, and it is perhaps even their ministry. I feel called more to "exhort," and call people -- especially men -- up to a stronger stand and a stronger standard, and encourage them to stop being a victim and try to get their power back in the relationship.

I think we all offer a good mix.

Puppy


Preach it to the choir my brother from another mother ;-)

Mine is a much more direct approach that some people may not feel comfortable with. I don't mind the hugs and sometimes they're definitely called for, going through this process and helping alot of my friends who have gone through similar situations with their wives has made me realize that for the most part, this is an education that most men would benefit a great deal from.

Some men are born with the natural intuition in how to respond, some are born more assertive & more confident, depending on our individual life stories, alot of things came along the way which affected our development.

There are no courses in school that teach us this.

We have Math, English, Biology, Phys Ed, Chemistry, Physics, Calculus, physics, history, etc.

But no courses on how to be a strong masculine man, not a prick who beats up on women and is physically & verbally abusive to everyone around them but how to be strong, confident, masculine and the positive benefits attributed to realizing these attributes as a male.

No courses on what to expect with relationships, how to develop meaningful & fulfilling relationships, the value of being honest, communicating needs, the importance of self-respect, self-value, self-esteem, self-love, etc.

Sure sex ed covers insert slot A into slot B and use a raincoat to prevent getting black spots on your john thomas, hair will grow here, here and here, these areas of the body will develop, this is what happens when you get aroused, this part grows bigger, points up towards the north star, pregnancy occurs when millions of these little guys find this one egg and 9 months later you have the responsibility of a lifetime, etc. Which is all good & understandable when you're in grades 4,5 and 6 depending on the school system you're in.

No courses that I knew of growing up in my neck of the woods, and for the most part, alot of fathers don't do a great job of providing this education to their sons because they probably lack the required knowledge & skillset also. We're all just bumbling around hoping just to make it to the next level (ie. grow up, get married, have kids, so they can repeat the cycle) yet while we're on this level we aren't taught the necessary skills to grow & develop even more instead of remaining complacent - we plateau and get used to being comfortable with life as is and alot of us don't realize that there is more to life than just work, bills, mortgages, etc. (wash, rinse, repeat) or we're trapped into thinking that's what life is, why should you expect more, that's how it was when we were young, our parents did it, their parents also, and so on & so forth.

Reading any or all of this, hopefully you will see that I'm not that much of a hard a$$ (only when I want to be) ;-)
Quote:
I think we all offer a good mix.


True that.
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
we need LOTS more smileys around here! I got spoiled over on FITO, what with all the little smileys swordfighting, puking, rolling their eyes, munching popcorn, etc.


Wait a minute! Puppy, you post somewhere else as well? When do you have time for that?
Reminds me of a scene on Cheers when they had a bowling league with all the taverns having a team. The Cheers team was bowling and Norm walked in the bowling alley and went straight into the bar. When he opened the door the crowd inside cheered "Norm!" To which Cliffy replied, "he's got a life of his own you know."

Cheers


LMAO!!!!!!
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
As I said on Orich's thread once, half jokingly, "Can a guy just give me a back rub without it leading to ML?" The guys pretty much said "NO WE CAN"T! We are men..." smile


Touching between spouses tends to lead to that.

Can a guy (I'm assuming your husband) give you a backrub without it leading to ML?

Yes.

Can your husband just have sex with you without having to give you a backrub?

Maybe he's been trained to believe that you won't give him sex any other way unless he does something for you. Maybe he feels thats the only way he can get some from you? Maybe/maybe not?

Is that possible to?



No, in this M that is not possible. And you are way out of bounds here b/c you post without knowing someone's sitch. If we only ML when he gave me back rubs we would rarely have sex.

My h is a really good man, and I mean that. But he's not able to give me therapeutic back rubs (or at least not very often) and so, when I need a massage for more than 5 min b/c of an old back surgery, I don't choose to torture him by asking something of him that he's not really able to do. (And he has not been "trained" by me as he is a man, not a dog. Jesus, what is in your past that makes you think so badly of women?? I mean your post had about 3 comments in it that put us down like we're all emasculating shrews...)

Did you mean your post to sound insulting? It was. I don't use sex as a weapon. Neither does my h. Maybe that's why I've been faithful to my h for 28 years and believe he has also been to me, and maybe it's ONE reason we are still married, and our div never happened...

When I posted my back rub question (on another's thread) it was mostly in jest & and I loved the feedback b/c it was hilarious, which I posted some of here. But you chose to respond in a way that really insulted me and since you don't know me, it insults women in general and that wasn't called for. I do not know your sitch, so I won't go there. Regarding your comments---

I am sure that some women must use sex as a weapon, or so many men would not complain of it. But I don't personally know many who do, or at least who admit it.

FYI, if it matters, I DO know women who say they don't feel like ML when their h's have been curt, or cold or critical to them all day, but then suddenly at bed time their h's decide they NOW "feel romantic" which means they want sex, and if the wife doesn't get on board fast enough, or wants some conflict resolution first (and no, I don't mean "grovelling", & I'm using my words carefully here), she's accused of "withholding" sex, or using sex as a weapon, or God knows what else...

Is that what you mean? My h doesn't do that either, by the way. He wants to make love when it feels loving to US. We both do.

That has not ever been an issue for us in our m, even in our darkest days. You couldn't know this b/c you don't know my sitch and this is not my thread. But You need to read much more about someone's sitch, before hurling out a smug put down like that, really.

To those women who make their kind hearted h's beg or plead for sex, I'd say "get help. It's not loving and it's weird." To those men who are truly clueless, I'd say that a few loving comments, or whatever your w's love language is, should start a few hours before you want to ML so she knows it's not a "2 minute tactic", and she'll be "in the mood" a lot more if she feels good about herself, which means no criticism from her h, and the M in general.

Sorry for the hijack Tristan, and as I said before, your sensitivity in this area is admirable. You know your w intimately and far far better than anyone here obviously. Trust what you know. I hope she gets the help she needs, for both of your sakes.

j-
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/22/09 01:43 PM
Journaling:

Friday afternoon, I took children to work picnic as W looked at appartments with MIL (UUGH). Went to a mutual friends after the picnic. Hung around the house for a while in the evening, things were very icy between W and I. She was going to go meet a frined after putting girls to bed and suggested that I go see her at a bar while she was putting the girls to bed. Strange, I know, but I went.

Her friend is very nice. But she also thinks that we should seperate for W sake. She is not one that is very religious and does not really believe in committed relationships (saying they are bound to fail because it is not human nature). This is not the type of advice that I like my W to be taking, but it is what it is. We talked a little about what was going on. It seems W is only telling friend half the story, which I guess isn't all that surprising. W called friend and asked if they could meet at her place. Friend finished drink and left. I decided to GAL a little and went out. This morning W told me that friend thought it was the best conversation we had had ever. That I really opened up. I am not sure if that is good or bad.

Anyway, my wife told me this morning that she has found a place and would like to sign a lease. She says she needs some support for the children and money for security deposit and first months rent. We have money in savings. How do I handle this. I make about 160% of what she does. In conversing this morning, I said I have already given so much. Mentioning that she would not of had her school loans paid off if it weren't for my income, etc. She took it as insult crying and saying "See, there you go again. Not treating me as an equal partner. It's the same old you. Nothing has changed."

She also said she would like about $2000 dollars to furnish it. We have it in savings, but this whole ordeal is going to be very expensive. It scares me that she has this bipolar diagnosis and seems to be somewhat manic right now. I am afraid she may spend quite a bit to get her new place as nice as the old. The place she wants to rent is more expensive than our current mortgage. How do I handle this? I have no idea.

Thanks for the advice.
Tristan,

There's nothing that says you have to finance her waywardness, nor SHOULD you. Let her use her own income, and become best friends with your town's CraigsList.

To help pay for her to leave you would be horribly enabling.

Puppy
You know, I've had conversation with my W about how expensive all this is going to be. We're in agreement. We need to conserve. We're buying less expensive food, etc. and a main component of this "renting a place" is the expense. In fact, I think it's a stumbling block for W in pulling the trigger.

Can you just tell her "we can't afford this." If she wants you to work with her, she's got to work with you. If she wants this, she needs to be realistic. Renting a place that is more than your mortgage is NOT REALISTIC. Seperation is going to mean sacrafice.

How much CAN you guys afford? Set a boundary.
Originally Posted By: BillM
If she wants you to work with her, she's got to work with you. If she wants this, she needs to be realistic. Renting a place that is more than your mortgage is NOT REALISTIC. Seperation is going to mean sacrafice.

How much CAN you guys afford? Set a boundary.


This.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/22/09 05:31 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

No, in this M that is not possible. And you are way out of bounds here b/c you post without knowing someone's sitch. If we only ML when he gave me back rubs we would rarely have sex.

My h is a really good man, and I mean that. But he's not able to give me therapeutic back rubs (or at least not very often) and so, when I need a massage for more than 5 min b/c of an old back surgery, I don't choose to torture him by asking something of him that he's not really able to do. (And he has not been "trained" by me as he is a man, not a dog. Jesus, what is in your past that makes you think so badly of women?? I mean your post had about 3 comments in it that put us down like we're all emasculating shrews...)

Did you mean your post to sound insulting? It was. I don't use sex as a weapon. Neither does my h. Maybe that's why I've been faithful to my h for 28 years and believe he has also been to me, and maybe it's ONE reason we are still married, and our div never happened...

When I posted my back rub question (on another's thread) it was mostly in jest & and I loved the feedback b/c it was hilarious, which I posted some of here. But you chose to respond in a way that really insulted me and since you don't know me, it insults women in general and that wasn't called for. I do not know your sitch, so I won't go there. Regarding your comments---

I am sure that some women must use sex as a weapon, or so many men would not complain of it. But I don't personally know many who do, or at least who admit it.

FYI, if it matters, I DO know women who say they don't feel like ML when their h's have been curt, or cold or critical to them all day, but then suddenly at bed time their h's decide they NOW "feel romantic" which means they want sex, and if the wife doesn't get on board fast enough, or wants some conflict resolution first (and no, I don't mean "grovelling", & I'm using my words carefully here), she's accused of "withholding" sex, or using sex as a weapon, or God knows what else...

Is that what you mean? My h doesn't do that either, by the way. He wants to make love when it feels loving to US. We both do.

That has not ever been an issue for us in our m, even in our darkest days. You couldn't know this b/c you don't know my sitch and this is not my thread. But You need to read much more about someone's sitch, before hurling out a smug put down like that, really.

To those women who make their kind hearted h's beg or plead for sex, I'd say "get help. It's not loving and it's weird." To those men who are truly clueless, I'd say that a few loving comments, or whatever your w's love language is, should start a few hours before you want to ML so she knows it's not a "2 minute tactic", and she'll be "in the mood" a lot more if she feels good about herself, which means no criticism from her h, and the M in general.

Sorry for the hijack Tristan, and as I said before, your sensitivity in this area is admirable. You know your w intimately and far far better than anyone here obviously. Trust what you know. I hope she gets the help she needs, for both of your sakes.
j-


25yearsmlc, it seems with you and breakaway, and again this is just an observation, I make a statement and apparently touch a sensitive nerve.

Let's be clear on this, I don't know you or breakaway, so when I post something like this, taking something like this and revealing so much personal detail on your part isn't necessary as is defending yourself which for the most part it sounds like what you're doing. Your husband is great guy, awesome, you have a good marriage, awesome too! That is good news. My post wasn't insulting, it actually was a question that appears to be honest & direct. Is it that unheard of, is it so outlandish that this sort of thing could only be possible in an alternate universe/reality? I think not. There was no need for you take any of my questions or statements personally and there was no need to defend against it. The most direct answer would have been "NO, IT'S NOT", the rest of your post was unnecessary.

When marriages hit stumbling blocks, sex is used as a tool to gain an advantage or a method of demonstrating control and it's unfortunate that it happens and apparently it happens often to many couples.

25yearsmlc, if that's not the case in your sitch, I am happy to hear that.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/22/09 05:37 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:

Friday afternoon, I took children to work picnic as W looked at appartments with MIL (UUGH). Went to a mutual friends after the picnic. Hung around the house for a while in the evening, things were very icy between W and I. She was going to go meet a frined after putting girls to bed and suggested that I go see her at a bar while she was putting the girls to bed. Strange, I know, but I went.

Her friend is very nice. But she also thinks that we should seperate for W sake. She is not one that is very religious and does not really believe in committed relationships (saying they are bound to fail because it is not human nature). This is not the type of advice that I like my W to be taking, but it is what it is. We talked a little about what was going on. It seems W is only telling friend half the story, which I guess isn't all that surprising. W called friend and asked if they could meet at her place. Friend finished drink and left. I decided to GAL a little and went out. This morning W told me that friend thought it was the best conversation we had had ever. That I really opened up. I am not sure if that is good or bad.

Anyway, my wife told me this morning that she has found a place and would like to sign a lease. She says she needs some support for the children and money for security deposit and first months rent. We have money in savings. How do I handle this. I make about 160% of what she does. In conversing this morning, I said I have already given so much. Mentioning that she would not of had her school loans paid off if it weren't for my income, etc. She took it as insult crying and saying "See, there you go again. Not treating me as an equal partner. It's the same old you. Nothing has changed."

She also said she would like about $2000 dollars to furnish it. We have it in savings, but this whole ordeal is going to be very expensive. It scares me that she has this bipolar diagnosis and seems to be somewhat manic right now. I am afraid she may spend quite a bit to get her new place as nice as the old. The place she wants to rent is more expensive than our current mortgage. How do I handle this? I have no idea.

Thanks for the advice.


The thing is you are no longer equal partners.
She has the OM who she is having an affair with and you don't have an OW who you're having an affair with. You aren't equal.
She wants to separate and you don't, equal partners wouldn't separate.

She wants to separate, she needs to know that doing so involves consequences, you can't be and shouldn't be expect to finance her affair & separation.

The quickest route between point A and point B here would be "NO I can't pay for your apartment".

You will support your children and seek joint custody of them but you can't pay for her apartment. The joint savings are meant for both of you to use together on something, You're not getting anything out of spending that money on her apartment so why should you agree to letting her use your joint savings for that?

Tell her she's a big girl and since she's adult enough to make the decision of leaving you to be with the OM, she's big enough to pay for her own rent. You never signed for anything more than marriage. If she wants something outside the marriage, she can take care of that herself.

You have a pair, own them.

Did you mention (remember you're not asking for her approval) that you are considering seeing other women to experience first hand what she is going through so you can understand this better?
Posted By: BigJohn Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/22/09 05:47 PM
RobX,

I read a number of your posts in this and other threads and would be interested in some feedback on my sitch. Sorry for the hijack Tristan and good luck!
Robx,

There you go again. I won my bet. You bully women on this site until they leave here, or surrender.... After posting something that clearly was inappropriate on YOUR end, I called you on it. I knew an apology was impossible but I wanted to make my point. (And It is not the offended party that is "wrong yet again, " but you the maker of the comment).

Tristan would do well to learn what NOT to do or say to women by modeling your behavior.

Instead of simply saying "sorry" b/c by your own admission, you know nothing of my m or another's situation and then you plow ahead and hurl out a bold assertion that offends, and you are dismissive of those who find it inaccurate or offensive. IF it's a woman, God help her, b/c your attacks are only starting, "she's over sensitive" or has some "odd nerve" you touched..why not call her "hysterical" or "PMSing"? Your unrelenting in your aggression.

You don't have well formed opinions b/c you don't know someone's story, but you will insult them, and then when called on it, you keep going! You keep on bullying women here. In real life? Oh I wouldn't hazard a guess, (and I know you won't either...)

It's sad for Tristan, b/c Women who stopped posting here b/c of YOU, could have been very useful to Tristan and you are not, except for showing him how not to act.

You won't even take the time to learn anyone's sitch b/c you are just too busy, yet you'll launch a missile based on no info, and then pretend it was innocent, and anyone who takes offense is somehow wrong again...never you. You have issues with women, period. And those issues of control and contempt were revealed here again.

Put your ego aside, and try to help Tristan without condescendingly disrespecting women at every turn..... Is it that a lot of women are just plain wrong/crazy/hysterical about your comments, or is it possible that YOU offend us? Is that too, a possibility? Just a thought.

j-
Tristan,

If she wants to be equal partners, why should you pay her way? She wants equality, let her get it. She can't have it both ways where you take care of her needs and finances, so she can "feel like an adult" and faces no real responsiblitlies for being single...

It's not about control okay? You can tell her, you are glad she wants equal RESPONSIBILITY, which is what it takes to get equal rights, so sit down like two adults and work out a budget where she gets to pay her share and that's all she pays but that's all she gets too. yes her standard of living may suffer but as long as the kids are fine, so be it.

THE kids are your concern, as she "finds herself"....not her. Make sense?
Try not to sound punitive but just calm and clear about what you'll do and what you won't. If possible, and it won't be easy, be "supportive" in the sense that you are "letting her go, " but NOT a doormat who subsidizes her singleness. It's a tough line to follow,
good luck,
J-
Tristan, I'm here because a friend ask me to look into your thread. My wife went through a similar period and has definite bipolar/BPD tendencies. I'm in agreement with everyone that it is NOT your responsibility to pay for her to leave. I didn't pay for my wife to leave; she financed it herself. Plus the kids stayed with me.

I'm not at the end of my sitch yet; but her moving out helped me heal the quickest. We get along great at the moment; but I'm not financing her life. That's my wife's responsibility.

Be friendly to your wife; but you don't have to be BFFs right now. She's breaking up the family. Look into yourself and get healthy for your kids sake. And DO NOT start dating other women!! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

You are not ready for that AND you are still married. Take the high road!
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/22/09 09:07 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Robx,

There you go again. I won my bet. You bully women on this site until they leave here, or surrender.... After posting something that clearly was inappropriate on YOUR end, I called you on it. I knew an apology was impossible but I wanted to make my point. (And It is not the offended party that is "wrong yet again, " but you the maker of the comment).



Glad you won the bet, not sure I even knew one was in place but congrats on winning it anyways.

How what I said was inappropriate is beyond me, I think it was an honest statement & question I posed, not sure why I have to feel bad & apologize for that. That's how I communicate, direct and to the point.

Not sure what point you are making... still?! What did I say that was CLEARLY inappropriate. We're here to be honest and discuss openly problems that affect or have affected all of us and i'll continue to do that.

As for my advice to Tristan, it was to treat his wife like an adult and an equal. That means being responsible for your actions and knowing that actions have consequences. Being overly nice & sensitive towards his wife only rewarded him with continued discussions of how she continued to see the OM, wanted to separate, pursue a relationship, etc. That was disrespectful of her towards him and I'll stand by that any day of the week and twice on friday's!

25yearsMLC, You aren't being bullied into anything, you can continue to post here as much as you want, we're all online and we're all anonymous at this point - how can what I do affect you & your ability to post on this or any other forum?!

We offer Tristan advice, it's his choice to act in the end, it's his life. Please stop turning this into an argument session, we're here for Tristan, not your personal agenda and I have to say it, you sound a little controlling although some of what you say has some merit "Tristan would do well to learn what NOT to do or say to women....".

I'll take it one step further, We would ALL do well to learn what NOT to do or say to our spouses & vice versa.

Communication is important.
Sorry, but I'm not seeing any bullying here. Just strong advice, from both sides of the spectrum.

Puppy
I think the irony here on these threads is that we forget that men and women communicate differently.

What you, Puppy, experience as bullying may be different than how others might.

I hate to generalize (especially because I think plenty of guys feel bullied here too), but really we (men and women) often experience the same words very differently especially when the topic specifically deals with gender related distinctions and assertions.

To be more succinct, it is a subjective experience and there's nothing wrong with just apologizing when someone feels bullied by you...I know what the answer is going to be so fine, forget it.

BTW- 25 is too wise and too brilliant to be that invested in getting an apology from a virtual poster anyway.

Probably time to move on...and back to Tristan...
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/22/09 11:23 PM
I did a child support calculation and it looks like if I used that for 50/50 split; I would owe her $600/month. I know she will ask for this. Is it reasonable that I pay it now; since I think I would be legally obligated to pay it if it were a true divorce?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/22/09 11:38 PM
Journaling:

Saturday Morning:
Woke up, almost no communication with wife. It was very uncomfortable. Told her that I was going to go play soccer. She said OK and she took the girls. Soccer was good, it was a good relief. But it was still hard to keep my mind from wandering even as I was on the field. It's been a while since I played; so the guys were asking "Where have you been all year?". My reply was just "Busy."

I called dad and gave him the whole rundown on my situation. My family suspects something was going on but had no clue what. It felt good to get it off my chest; but my dad now has to keep the secrets too.

After lunch, W asked me to come up to the bedroom. "How are doing?", she asks.

"Truthfully, I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed at this whole situation. I reply. But it is what it is, to use your expression. I will just love the girls the best I can given the situation.", I reply. The girls then interrupt. I walk out of the room to take care of them. I walk back in the room. She is lying down, so I let her be.

She asks if I can take the girls to the park and I do. She originally planned on us all going, but I don't think she felt like it. Had a good time at the park. My legs were sore from the soccer match; so it was a little painful chasing the girls around.

I just got home and MIL told me W is out shopping for a book. I believe it is a childrens book on divorce. This will really suck for them.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/22/09 11:41 PM
Originally Posted By: marriedCrazy
Tristan, I'm here because a friend ask me to look into your thread. My wife went through a similar period and has definite bipolar/BPD tendencies. I'm in agreement with everyone that it is NOT your responsibility to pay for her to leave. I didn't pay for my wife to leave; she financed it herself. Plus the kids stayed with me.

I'm not at the end of my sitch yet; but her moving out helped me heal the quickest. We get along great at the moment; but I'm not financing her life. That's my wife's responsibility.

Be friendly to your wife; but you don't have to be BFFs right now. She's breaking up the family. Look into yourself and get healthy for your kids sake. And DO NOT start dating other women!! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

You are not ready for that AND you are still married. Take the high road!


Thank you marriedCrazy. Do you still have any desire to remain married to your wife?
Puppy, it was the suggestion about my sex life with my h that I felt was out of line and not appropriate. When I called him on it, he did his usual "you're so touchy" thing that annoys the crap out of most women, (yeah, I know, it's a generalization but I'll stick by it anyhow). And it's not the first time robx talked that way to women here, who's situations he knows nothing of.....so a few don't post here anymore and yeah, I think tristan loses b/c of that.

I do think if you have not read someone's thread you ought to use a bit of restraint with the suggestions or commentary b/c the chance of you getting it way off, are a lot higher. There, that's my point.

back to you, Tristan, how willing is your w's family to help her get help? do they "get it"? What's with the "MIL" comment? I'm assuming she makes things way worse but does SHE admit your w had a few "issues"? Does mil feel guilty or ashamed and therefore act more in denial?

Have you given some serious thought to not simply handing over the kids if she's acting unstable? Custody --can you take them on full time IF needed? Here's the caveat....if you have left her with the kids in the past on her own for extended time, like when you were on business trips, then it's hard to suddenly say "You're too crazy to care for them now" as it will look vindictive.

This does NOT apply if you have noticed new, odd behavior that has nothing to do with OM...cuz if it's all about OM, then you may look punitive. (Not saying that the OM stuff is normal or healthy, but I am saying the court will want "evidence" that you see odd behavior that does not relate to her apparent rejection of you. Make sense? I think you have some of this with the emotional outbursts, and swings, but that's what they'll look to, fyi).

Good luck,
j-
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/22/09 11:59 PM
She has only had a handful of days over the past 3 yrs where she would not have been able to handle the kids. And she knows who to call if she can't take care of it herself.

MIL only knew that she was out shopping for a book (she didn't know what kind). MIL is sorry for me. She says she does not know what happened. She knows W has issues. W says MIL is on my side. However, in the end, MIL will always support W no matter what happens (as it should be).
mil may "side" with her grandchildren, not her d or you. Don't assume too much, but make it clear that YOUR priorities are your children's happiness, and that you love your w very much, which we all can see.

I too love my kids. I have a s23 and a d20 (and a much younger one too) But if one of them pulled this stunt on "my" grandkids and or their own spouse, don't think I would not come down hard on MY kid,

and I'd get them help if that was what was called for, but if it were an MLC or some other sane but selfish thing, I'd openly advocate for the M....I have seen this work with my own family when my oldest brother got an ego "virus" and wanted OW and a div from a great w, and we all just clamped down and said "WTH are you doing?" and he eventually got it. Finally, 5 months later he stopped acting like a fool. And the OW was embarrassed to learn we ALL were not "okay" with her, and she wanted out then, so I have seen family pressure work well.

Don't bad mouth your w to MIL, that is a bad idea. But that's a lot diff than asking for help with keeping the family together. See the diff?

j-
Originally Posted By: tristan


Thank you marriedCrazy. Do you still have any desire to remain married to your wife?


I have minimal desire to keep my family together but really no desire to remain married to her. The only reason that we are not divorced yet is that she is pregnant with OM's child and the state normally will not allow a D to go through the court when the wife is pregnant. My L says that I could do it; but it might be costlier for me in the end. So we are waiting until her "love child" is born and paternity established. It isn't mine; I'm "neutered" and we haven't been together for over a year now.

We are getting divorced but we remain on friendly terms. Partly because I decided to "let go and let God" handle this affair. I've taken charge of my life and the things that I can control. I make sure that our kids are taken care of; all of that gives me peace. I've also established a social life outside of the house and have realized my own self-worth that was decimated by three years of dealing with her crap.

Don't let yourself feel guilty or responsible for her well-being mentally. Ultimately, your W will do what she wants to do. She may start counseling with one person; only to quit when it gets to personal or it hurts too much. Then she'll switch to another counselor until the same thing happens. Take care of you and your kids. You cannot control your W nor can you "fix" her. She has to do these things on her own.

Only you can decide when you've had enough. It took me three years and a LOT OF MONEY before I finally threw in the towel. It's been the best thing for me. I've have regained my identity and am happier than I've been in a long time. The weirdest byproduct of all this is that the W and I are getting along great now. But I cannot go back to a M with her; she hasn't healed from all of her past hurt and still shows selfish tendencies.

Be wary of your wife's actions. As they say, believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see. Especially with people with mental disorders; they are master manipulators. I'm not saying your W is that; but if you believe in odds, beware.

I'll be reading your thread for a while. I'm not here often; but I do have a thread over in Infidelity. Find me if you need me.

mC
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/23/09 02:54 AM
Journaling:

Saturday evening:
W comes home about 9:30. I hadn't put the kids to bed yet, so she helped. She bought a children's book, but not one for divorce (Runaway Bunny). She read that to them. She was much more amicable tonight. She never brought up anything about the lease. She just gave me a hug before going to bed and said "Thank you."

M: "Thank you for what?"
W: "Thank you for helping."

She then headed down to go to bed. She is currently sleeping with MIL downstairs.
Originally Posted By: tristan
I did a child support calculation and it looks like if I used that for 50/50 split; I would owe her $600/month. I know she will ask for this. Is it reasonable that I pay it now; since I think I would be legally obligated to pay it if it were a true divorce?


Yes, if you're confident you calculated it correctly. But I would ONLY pay it either:

a) Directly (such as guy something yourself for the child(en);

or

b) Reimburse her if/when she provides you with RECEIPTS. I wouldn't give her unconditional cash payments.

Puppy
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/23/09 02:35 PM
- no need to rush into any child support payments.
You know you're a good dad, you know you'll provide for them, you don't have to start paying her that child support now, let her move out and let her pay for her apartment and furnishings, etc. by herself.

- get a separation agreement in place before she moves out, you can agree to separation but don't agree to dissolution anytime soon.

I'm not sure about your specific location but where I live, once a separation agreement is in place, any debt that she accumulated after the separation agreement is in place is something that she will be responsible for, not you. Don't let her run up credit cards and burn away your savings until the separation agreement is in place - this is to protect you.

I guess your first step now is to see a lawyer determine what your options are and make sure you find a lawyer that isn't just there to help you sign papers, get one that's there for your best interests and won't fold and give her everything she wants.

How have you been holding up Tristan?
I know you were stressed out something fierce the other day when you finally put your foot down.
Originally Posted By: robx
- no need to rush into any child support payments.
You know you're a good dad, you know you'll provide for them, you don't have to start paying her that child support now, let her move out and let her pay for her apartment and furnishings, etc. by herself.



There's a method to my madness. She'll never agree to the "pay directly/receipts" thing anyway, and Tristan will be off the hook for anything other than continuing to meet his kids' needs the way he always has. The CS is non-negotiable anyway, and this WILL be the amount he will eventually have to pay if they don't work things out.

Puppy
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/23/09 02:59 PM
Puppy you are good! ;-)
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/23/09 10:04 PM
What about our joint savings. Does anyone out there believe me unreasonable to ask that it not be touched for her move. She obviously says that 50% of it should be her's (which would be about $10,000 outside of our retirememt money) and is quite upset about it.

I used the argument that every big purchase that we have made with savings thus far has been agreed to by both of us and I don't agree to this one. We only have 1 joint checking account which we pretty much use month to month. So she would be starting from 0 and would need to go into debt to get started. I am fine with that, be she says that I am being unreasonable. Does anyone out there agree with her?

As for me, I am doing OK. Better than a few nights ago; it is still extremely hard. I have slipped a couple times in the pursuing part a couple times the past couple of days; but nothing like asking for a kiss. I have touched her on the shoulder a couple of times. She has done the same. As long as we are in the same house, it is tough to be completely dark.

W went out with a mutual friend that knows the sitch and is very pro-marriage. She has been gone for a long time now. Not sure if anything is coming of it; but I am glad that they are talking right now. Our girls deserve better than this.

Speaking of the girls. I have spent much of the weekend with them. Its been a good distraction from everything. At one point, I often wondered if I could really handle them alone; now I have no doubt.
I would not split the savings w/her at this point. If you do end up getting D, the savings will probably be split, but you are not D'd yet -- and you're right about the decision on the joint savings being mutual.

Her moving out is NOT a mutual decision.

I'd move that money out of the joint account, and into your name only, otherwise she'll go take what she wants.

Stacy
I wouldn't use any of the savings for her exit from the family.

If you end up with a written separation agreement that includes splitting up the money; then do it then. But not until then and if you eventually divorce; I would account for that split that asset as previously settled. However, I would prefer that you leave your savings alone.
Talk to a L. You will look weird in the court's eyes if you empty the account. At one point, my L suggested I take half the joint account money and put it somewhere that h could not touch (in his MLC he would have "invested" wherever his heroes told him to b/c of the gazillion dollars "we" would make, etc and he was totally alien and I thank God I filed for a sep b/c it saved our home...but I did take enough money out, IN CASE he went overboard...) but you are legally entitled to half of it "unencumbered" and she could use the same argument....it is a tough call b/c no one HERE wants her to get the money b/c no one here wants her to leave.

But I think you'll have a tough time saying no and "enforcing it' without doing something that risks looking really controlling and odd in the court's eyes. Do you understand what I'm saying?

IF and I repeat, IF, you do allow her the half she is legally entitled to (in most states at least) then I would definitely document that so IF the time comes to divide assets more, her half of THIS is counted against the total.

But honestly I don't know what your legal argument is that prevents her from accessing money to which she has the legal right.

It's a very tough balancing act-- ie, Not enabling her, not wanting to support this type of destructive action, balanced against looking bad in the court's eyes OR in her eyes at this point...and knowing she does have the legal right AND knowing that if you put the money somewhere she cannot reach it, and you take more than half, you'll be doing something that smells really bad to a court notwithstanding your pro-M views....I mean, I get where you are coming from, but I'm detaching as objectively as possible and giving you some legal thoughts, (not to be construed as legal advice. YES I'm a L, but no I am not giving interstate advice or formal counsel to anyone here....yes that IS a disclaimer...)

(SIGH)
sorry this isn't making you feel very good, I'm sure.
j-
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/24/09 01:21 PM
Thank you 25,

I have received similiar advice from a couple friends that I trust. I talked to W this morning and said that I would like a legal seperation document in place before moving money around. She agreed and said she would hold off moving until we had something in place.

I do not like getting lawyers involved, but I don't know how else to handle this.

Last night I talked to MIL. She told me that she is sorry and thinks that I should just move on. W doesn't love me and I should just go on with my life. That was a hard pill to swallow. I know MIL is trying hard to get W to reconsider, but W seems to have a one track mind right now.

The last couple of days things between W and I have been very business like. Almost no emotion from either of us. For me it is just a shell, inside I am numb. Sometimes I wonder if I even want to be married to this woman anymore. She has changed so much from the woman I married. I know I am responsible for part of that, and her illness is another part. But there is a part that she herself is playing in this too. She is not the same. And I am wondering if the original W will ever be back. I realized last night that W was planning to move the same week that D5 starts kindergarten. I mentioned cynically that it will be a great first week for D5. Her reply, "She is a kid. She doesn't know any better." This is the same woman that would not let the same child cry for more than a minute without picking her up to comfort her after she was born.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/24/09 03:51 PM
Hang in there, Tristan.

FYI, there are Do-It-Yourself books for divorces and sep agreements. H and I took ours all the way to filing for the final judgement with nary a lawyer involved.

Also, re: telling the kids - H and I told kidlet (who was 6) together, calmly but that didn't stop kidlet from breaking down crying, then bolting from the house and running blindly down the street. Took us about half an hour to find him. He'd managed to get back into the house and was curled in a ball in the back of one of the closets.

Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/24/09 03:55 PM
Thank you Dia. I will check it out.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/24/09 04:15 PM
the clock hasn't stopped ticking during all of this,
Tristan what are you doing to turn this thing around?

You are exhibiting all of the classic responses & behaviors most men go through when their wives are leaving them to pursue relationships with their affair partners.

You are solidifying the decision in her head with your actions & behaviors: hurt, shocked, sad, depressed, numb, unloved, needy, clingy, etc.

Why not throw a monkey wrench into all of this and do the opposite, it's counter-intuitive, it goes against exactly how you feel and it throws your spouse for a loop because she expects this sad behavior from you.

Gucci wrote a few words in another thread recently and it really hit home because it wasn't until I implemented real change on my part in my own situation that I started to see real results.

Gucci wrote "....REALITY.. Follow reality... not what you "wish for" .... "

You want to see specific results, perform specific actions.

If you want different results, do different things.

You are currently your wife's emotional healing stone, she is sucking the life energy out of you indirectly, while you are hurt and wanting all of things that are currently in motion to stop and go in reverse, she sees this and it allows her to rationalize all of her current actions & behavior... "... I should leave him, this is the right thing to do, there is a reason why I don't love him, too many bad things have happened, I need something new & exciting in my life, not the same old situation, plus I don't feel secure around him, he can't even take care of himself let alone take care of my needs & our family, look how he's breaking down, look how he clings to me like he's losing his whole world, now he'll try to make me feel guilty by mentioning the effects on the kids and I expect him to continue doing this because he has nothing left to try".

Confidence, it's extremely attractive.
We're not talking arrogance, we're talking confidence, there is a huge difference between the two.

You are hers and if she chose to, she could have you back now at any time and she knows it and you know it - admit it. You are conquered, that isn't attractive, it's not exciting, it's not challenging and it's hard to respect something that is conquered and that is human nature, I didn't make that rule, that's just how it seems to be.

Yes I'll say it again (and I'll hold up my shield for the arrows that are shot my way), start dating. Gucci has promoted this advice on the site to countless others, and I did it in my own situation with extremely powerful results. Your wife sees you and attaches very low value to you. When you start to date other women, your value will increase, other women are going out with you, you must have value for them, so your wife will question it. Plus if you start to move on faster than her previous ideas about you allowed for, it throws her rationalizations for a loop. You are no longer conquered at this point, you are moving on. She will see this and she will react accordingly. Up until this point, all of this has been her decision, do you notice how she is calling all the shots? She's going to move out, it doesn't matter to her the effects on your kids, she's going to take half the savings, she will want more money on top of that when she needs it to begin her new life (furnishings and everything else that goes into setting up a new life in a new home) and you if you continue on this path will be there to say "OK, here you go, is there anything else I can do to help you out let me know, did you want some help moving? I can help move all your possessions into your new place while you and the OM are having dinner together so that you guys aren't bothered and I can show you how much of a nice guy I am" (please don't be this super nice guy, it never works). I read in another thread one of the LBS offering his wife to help her move into her new apartment, the same woman who was cheating on him and leaving him for another man - it made me sick to my stomach and I guarantee you his wife probably had similar feelings for him: "... he's such a nice guy, I don't understand how I can continue doing this and continue to hurt, maybe it's true, maybe I never did really love him." She can't tell you why she isn't attracted to her husband anymore although I'm sure there are alot of excuses, in the end, he exhibited behaviors that were extremely unattractive and he continued to kill the attraction between him & his wife until finally there was nothing left to hold her there. Attraction isn't a choice, you don't get to decide who you are attracted to, it just happens. You "flick" certain switches by exhibiting crap behaviors and you will kill attraction, you "flick" other switches by exhibiting attractive behaviors that are different from what she is used to with you and you will create attraction. Don't question it, that's attraction and how it works. We can all hope for unconditional love but in the end, if you don't meet your spouses needs, they will get their needs taken care of from someone else and that is a stone cold fact and you can preach "what about love, you're supposed to love me no matter what" but we all know that it doesn't work like that although it would be great if it did but I guess we would all turn into lazy sloth's if we had nothing to work for & maintain.

It's ok to love someone but you must love yourself and that means respecting yourself and not allowing others to treat you poorly or take advantage of you - that is a very unattractive behavior.

So what attractive behaviors are you going to start exhibiting today?



Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/24/09 04:49 PM
I think I have stopped being clingy. I really am not enjoying being around her anymore. I think I am moving on. However, I think I can still be sad for the children. It would be obviously insincere to be anything else. I am not crying. I am not asking for hugs. I am not touching anymore. Neither is she.

I guess the one attractive behavior I can show right now is my concern for the girls. And I can go about going on with my life. In my opinion, dating at this point would be unattractive. It would show that I need someone to fulfill me. I want to be bigger than that.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/24/09 06:02 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
I think I have stopped being clingy. I really am not enjoying being around her anymore. I think I am moving on. However, I think I can still be sad for the children. It would be obviously insincere to be anything else. I am not crying. I am not asking for hugs. I am not touching anymore. Neither is she.

I guess the one attractive behavior I can show right now is my concern for the girls. And I can go about going on with my life. In my opinion, dating at this point would be unattractive. It would show that I need someone to fulfill me. I want to be bigger than that.


That's definitely one opinion but it also shows that you are moving on. No one is talking about finding your next true love, having sex and getting married to someone else. It shows that you have confidence to pick yourself up and try again, I personally don't think it would show that you need someone to fulfill you.

You currently are bigger, you don't have to prove it by showing your fidelity especially when that means nothing to your wife as is and believe me it makes her position much stronger if you're sitting at home waiting which is the mental image she has of you, it is also certain to be one of the things that pop up in the many conversations she has with the other man..."... poor dear, he is sitting at home, waiting for me to come to my senses, hopefully one day he'll pick himself up again".
Tristan, I'm glad that you don't consider dating to be an option at this point. I will have to respectfully disagree with robx on dating being an option at this point. If you were to date; then you show the same disrespect for your vows that your wife is showing right now. There a million other ways to GAL than dating another woman. Good thinking tristan.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/25/09 01:02 AM
Just my personal opinion, but I agree with Crazy. smile What's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.
Living in the same house = no dating IMO. After separation...different variables require different actions.

Flirting and getting attention can help with confidence. I fought all of this for a loooong time but it is true. BUT, I am way further along in my sitch and I was dealing with cake-eating.
I'll agree that some attention from the fairer sex doesn't hurt the self-esteem; but dating should be a no-no.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/25/09 01:32 PM
Journaling

Monday:
W became extremely upset with me yesterday when she found out that our savings account was in only my name and not both of ours. She called me on the phone insinuated that I was trying to cheat her. I tried to explain that the account was set up several years ago before I ever had any notion that we could end up like this.

Went home and asked her to go for a walk so we could calm down. This seemed to work. By the end we were rather friendly. I showed her all the accounts last night. She gave a check (from her new checking account) to a landlord for a security deposit to hold an apartment.

Last night after the conversation we ended up ML. I am not sure how it happened, but I am a guy that has needs. Afterward, she left the bed to go sleep with MIL. She said she didn't need to be any more confused than she already was.

I talked to a lawyer this morning. She told me to let the money go. She said that it would be counted against her assets in the end anyway.

So would binviting single moms over for playdates (for the children I mean) be considered dating? I on't think so.
Quote:
So would binviting single moms over for playdates (for the children I mean) be considered dating? I on't think so.


Why single moms? Huh? Why don't you plan playdates with whoever your kids are friends with...

I kind of can't believe you asked that question but ok. No, it isn't dating if you are there to have your kids play together but seeing as you are a guy and all and you have needs, you might not want those single moms alone with you... crazy
Sorry if this is obtrusive, but I can't figure out how to PM.
Alive and Kicking - I have read a lot of your stuff. Would you mind stopping by my thread and giving me your thoughts? I have some questions that your experience would be really valued.
Originally Posted By: tristan


Last night after the conversation we ended up ML. I am not sure how it happened, but I am a guy that has needs.



I certainly understand, Tristan. I do also very much hope that you are using protection, for obvious reasons.

Puppy
I'm a bit busy right now and sort of breezing through here but I will take some time to really focus on your thread as soon as I can...
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/25/09 06:01 PM
OK. Just got back from IC. He made it perfectly clear to me what Robx and puppy have been trying to pound in my head for quite some time. He said absolutely no hugging, touching, kissing, etc. It is bad for my self-esteem and her mental health. Sorry Robx, I owe you an apology for not following your recomendations more closely. Thank you for your time.

He did disagree you on the dating though. He said as long as I am married there should be no dating.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/25/09 08:25 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Why single moms? Huh? Why don't you plan playdates with whoever your kids are friends with...


Hello alive,

I just thought about this and I'm not sure I feel comfortable around couples anymore. Did anyone have trouble with this initially? Why moms? Because I don't know any single dads yet.

And sorry about the guy with needs comment, it's just hard to ward off the advances when they occur. My IC made me realize that it is because I don't want to let her go, but that is exactly what I need to do. Its the exact thing that everyone here has been telling me. It is really just very hard to be disciplined and stick to it when W turns on and off like a light switch.
Yikes, wires crossing. Of course you have needs, we all do (I slept with H many times after he left)!!! I was kind of playing and while I think I may be a little too hard on you, I think you're also a tad traumatized...

You don't need to apologize for communicating honestly here.

I think you do need to boost your confidence and feel more self-assured. You don't want to be like that with wife..."Oops, oops, sorry I said that" kind of thing.

I am not teasing you. You seem like a really thoughtful and nice guy (good things!!!!) but you really need to get your nuts back too (as some of the boys here like to say). It is a fine line but you can do it.
Quote:
I just thought about this and I'm not sure I feel comfortable around couples anymore. Did anyone have trouble with this initially? Why moms? Because I don't know any single dads yet.


My point was that you should make playdates with moms (single or not), dads or caregivers of your child's friends. I'm not saying to hang out with couples (most couples don't do "playdates" together anyway).
Originally Posted By: tristan
Last night after the conversation we ended up ML. I am not sure how it happened, but I am a guy that has needs. Afterward, she left the bed to go sleep with MIL. She said she didn't need to be any more confused than she already was.


Are you more or less confused after this?

SMcQ
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/26/09 10:30 AM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling

Monday:
W became extremely upset with me yesterday when she found out that our savings account was in only my name and not both of ours. She called me on the phone insinuated that I was trying to cheat her. I tried to explain that the account was set up several years ago before I ever had any notion that we could end up like this.

Went home and asked her to go for a walk so we could calm down. This seemed to work. By the end we were rather friendly. I showed her all the accounts last night. She gave a check (from her new checking account) to a landlord for a security deposit to hold an apartment.

Last night after the conversation we ended up ML. I am not sure how it happened, but I am a guy that has needs. Afterward, she left the bed to go sleep with MIL. She said she didn't need to be any more confused than she already was.

I talked to a lawyer this morning. She told me to let the money go. She said that it would be counted against her assets in the end anyway.

So would binviting single moms over for playdates (for the children I mean) be considered dating? I on't think so.


Your error in this situation was trying to explain anything.
She accused you of trying to cheat her? Are you serious? And then on top of that you tried to defend yourself for something you didn't have to defend? Do you see the problem here? She insinuated/accused you of cheating and you ended up looking like the bad guy .... isn't your wife cheating on you currently? Do you make her look like the bad guy? What right does she have to talk to you like this?

STOP!

I'll repeat this part again & again if I have to until you burn it into your brain and it becomes part of boot up process in the morning:

Grow a spine and start to stand up for yourself. It’s impossible to truly love yourself & draw self esteem from within if you are letting people walk all over you. Every time you let someone treat you badly your self esteem drops just a little bit.

Learn it, know it, live it - everything else in your life will improve when you believe in these words.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/26/09 10:34 AM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Quote:
So would binviting single moms over for playdates (for the children I mean) be considered dating? I on't think so.


Why single moms? Huh? Why don't you plan playdates with whoever your kids are friends with...

I kind of can't believe you asked that question but ok. No, it isn't dating if you are there to have your kids play together but seeing as you are a guy and all and you have needs, you might not want those single moms alone with you... crazy


I'm assuming once you invite these single moms over, you all aren't going to put the kids in one room and strip down to your birthday suits in another room and do the horizontal mambo.

Yes it's perfectly fine, do it, you don't need our approval and you need to start learning that - when you do things you don't need to ask permission if it's something you want to do, seeking approval isn't attractive - is this something you did with your wife regularly?

Just do it.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 10:47 AM
Originally Posted By: tristan

Went home and asked her to go for a walk so we could calm down. This seemed to work. By the end we were rather friendly. I showed her all the accounts last night. She gave a check (from her new checking account) to a landlord for a security deposit to hold an apartment.

Last night after the conversation we ended up ML. I am not sure how it happened, but I am a guy that has needs. Afterward, she left the bed to go sleep with MIL. She said she didn't need to be any more confused than she already was.


The process is called "tagging".
I've read quite a bit about it, specifically about women who leave their husbands to pursue affairs with other men. To get what they need from their husbands while these women are actively pursuing affairs & relationships with other men, they will sleep with their husbands to lull them into a fake sense of security. You called it making love because you (and men in general) associate sex with love when you are with wife. It made you feel more secure momentarily but it actually probably did more harm than good.

When she wants something from you, she will give you sex. She is exercising her control over you and it's working quite well apparently. Don't believe me? Good I welcome a challenge. Document this instance and the past several instances when you ML with your wife recently if she ended up getting something she needed from you. Document also when she says that she is confused after having sex with you, document if she sleeps in the bed with you to stay close with you after ML or if she leaves the bed for you to be alone afterwards. Document when she wants something from you, gets angry at you, turns things around and makes it your fault and somehow you end up apologizing.

Seems very analytical but humor me & yourself.

Also, try this if you're up for a challenge.
The next time she wants to "ML" with you (have sex), refuse.
Tell her you are confused and don't think you can have sex with her anymore. Document her reaction - maybe the first time she won't make a big deal of it but when you start holding back a few times after that, I'm betting she will get angry - she will use sex as a means to control you, or "tag" you. Refusing sex with her will make you more attractive to her - you will be communicating that you aren't conquered, you aren't waiting for the morsels & scraps of "love" she throws at you. Playing hard to get is very attractive - don't believe me? Your wife is playing that game right now and you want her back sooner than yesterday.

Just because she wiggles her ass in front of you doesn't mean you have to bite it. You're smarter than a fish, don't just bite that hook everytime you see it.

Yes you're a man and you have needs. I'm a man too, don't tell me about needs, I think about sex 90 seconds of every minute, exercise some control, you'll survive LOL!

You've been warned about this "tagging" process now, look for the signs. You have nothing to lose at this point and pretty much everything to gain, start doing some homework, you have a long road ahead of you, stop doing what doesn't work and start doing what does work.

Actions speak louder than words.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/26/09 10:58 AM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Quote:
So would binviting single moms over for playdates (for the children I mean) be considered dating? I on't think so.


Why single moms? Huh? Why don't you plan playdates with whoever your kids are friends with...

I kind of can't believe you asked that question but ok. No, it isn't dating if you are there to have your kids play together but seeing as you are a guy and all and you have needs, you might not want those single moms alone with you... crazy


AAK realize that Tristan needs confidence above all else right now especially since his world is upside down & inside out. From what he's posted he's in love with his wife and he isn't going to be doing anything foolish like have an affair seek extramarital sex with another partner - he leaves his wife to pursue that avenue.

Since he requires confidence we need to pump him up.
Yes it's ok to have playdates with single moms, at this point regardless of the legal title, he's a single dad, his wife is leaving him for another man. So have playdates with other single parents is ok to do and Tristan if you are reading this, you don't need to ask our permission! Approval seeking is unattractive, you're an adult, you know what you can or can't do.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/26/09 11:01 AM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: tristan


Last night after the conversation we ended up ML. I am not sure how it happened, but I am a guy that has needs.



I certainly understand, Tristan. I do also very much hope that you are using protection, for obvious reasons.

Puppy


Seriously!

Even better, refuse sex with your wife, if she is with the OM then you are currently sharing a sex partner, IMHO, major turn off and it really shows how insecure you are that you jump at the chance to have sex with your wife if she's currently being intimate with another man.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/26/09 11:09 AM
Originally Posted By: tristan
OK. Just got back from IC. He made it perfectly clear to me what Robx and puppy have been trying to pound in my head for quite some time. He said absolutely no hugging, touching, kissing, etc. It is bad for my self-esteem and her mental health. Sorry Robx, I owe you an apology for not following your recomendations more closely. Thank you for your time.

He did disagree you on the dating though. He said as long as I am married there should be no dating.


Her mental health is a crutch she's using to allow her to rationalize her behavior so you need to stop concerning yourself with this. The OM in question I'm sure has been discussing these things with your wife and he has no problems with her "mental health" issues because I'm sure he sees that although she may be suffering from depression, it isn't impeding her motor skills and her ability to know from right/wrong, left/right, up/down, etc.

She is making a choice, she is making a decision with all of her actions. Blaming this all on her mental health takes away her responsibility in all of this, treat her like an adult and let her assume responsibility for her actions!

WOW...I'm glad your counsellor agreed with what I had to say.

The dating is your choice, you'll pursue it when you're ready to. Let's be clear about all of this, dating other women is for you to pump up your confidence and also to create a fear of loss with your wife, let's be totally clear about this. You aren't being asked to kiss any women, have sex with them, etc. Go out, have dinner, do an activity together, make a new friend, etc. While you're doing this, be clear on what you're doing for yourself. Be clear with the women you date if you end up doing this, tell them you're just dating and not looking for an intimate relationship - you can be honest, it's allowed.

Will generating fear of loss work with your wife?

Why don't you answer that question yourself with what she's doing to you and how you feel?


Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/26/09 11:14 AM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Yikes, wires crossing. Of course you have needs, we all do (I slept with H many times after he left)!!! I was kind of playing and while I think I may be a little too hard on you, I think you're also a tad traumatized...

You don't need to apologize for communicating honestly here.

I think you do need to boost your confidence and feel more self-assured. You don't want to be like that with wife..."Oops, oops, sorry I said that" kind of thing.

I am not teasing you. You seem like a really thoughtful and nice guy (good things!!!!) but you really need to get your nuts back too (as some of the boys here like to say). It is a fine line but you can do it.


Not sure about the "fine line" but his nuts are in his wife's purse, Tristan if you get a chance, ask your wife to open her purse, put your hand in there, fish around for a bit, you'll find your "pair" in there, take them out, put them back where they belong ;-)

Obviously a bit of joke to throw off the doom & gloom of this current situation. Reclaim your identity, your individuality and what it means for Tristan to feel masculine again.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/26/09 01:07 PM
Journaling:
Tuesday Afternoon:
Went to D5's graduation from Preschool. W was there, but I spent very litle time talking with her. She asked if I would like to walk to the store to get a little more icecream. I said I was fine either way, she said OK and went and took her mom.

After party, went home and spent much of the rest of the evening with D3 and reading up in my room. W touched me a couple of times through the evening.

Wednesday Morning:
Woke up and got ready without going downstairs. On my way out W hugged me saying "I just wanted to smell you." I smiled and said "Have a good day."
Originally Posted By: tristan
On my way out W hugged me saying "I just wanted to smell you."

Funny.

Originally Posted By: tristan
So would binviting single moms over for playdates (for the children I mean) be considered dating?

whats your ultimate goal here tristan?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/26/09 02:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: tristan
So would binviting single moms over for playdates (for the children I mean) be considered dating?

whats your ultimate goal here tristan?


I started thinking about what I am going to do with my time alone with the girls. How I am going to handle it, etc. I think I would like company during some of those times. As I mentioned before, I am not sure I feel comfortable asking couples to get together. But I do feel comfortable asking some single parents; people that I can relate to at this point in my life. So I guess the "goal" would be to have some company when I have the girls. When I don't have the girls, I will have more flexibility in connecting with people (so that is not a concern).
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: tristan

Went home and asked her to go for a walk so we could calm down. This seemed to work. By the end we were rather friendly. I showed her all the accounts last night. She gave a check (from her new checking account) to a landlord for a security deposit to hold an apartment.

Last night after the conversation we ended up ML. I am not sure how it happened, but I am a guy that has needs. Afterward, she left the bed to go sleep with MIL. She said she didn't need to be any more confused than she already was.


The process is called "tagging".
I've read quite a bit about it, specifically about women who leave their husbands to pursue affairs with other men. To get what they need from their husbands while these women are actively pursuing affairs & relationships with other men, they will sleep with their husbands to lull them into a fake sense of security. You called it making love because you (and men in general) associate sex with love when you are with wife. It made you feel more secure momentarily but it actually probably did more harm than good.

When she wants something from you, she will give you sex. She is exercising her control over you and it's working quite well apparently. Don't believe me? Good I welcome a challenge. Document this instance and the past several instances when you ML with your wife recently if she ended up getting something she needed from you. Document also when she says that she is confused after having sex with you, document if she sleeps in the bed with you to stay close with you after ML or if she leaves the bed for you to be alone afterwards. Document when she wants something from you, gets angry at you, turns things around and makes it your fault and somehow you end up apologizing.

Seems very analytical but humor me & yourself.

Also, try this if you're up for a challenge.
The next time she wants to "ML" with you (have sex), refuse.
Tell her you are confused and don't think you can have sex with her anymore. Document her reaction - maybe the first time she won't make a big deal of it but when you start holding back a few times after that, I'm betting she will get angry - she will use sex as a means to control you, or "tag" you. Refusing sex with her will make you more attractive to her - you will be communicating that you aren't conquered, you aren't waiting for the morsels & scraps of "love" she throws at you. Playing hard to get is very attractive - don't believe me? Your wife is playing that game right now and you want her back sooner than yesterday.

Just because she wiggles her ass in front of you doesn't mean you have to bite it. You're smarter than a fish, don't just bite that hook everytime you see it.

Yes you're a man and you have needs. I'm a man too, don't tell me about needs, I think about sex 90 seconds of every minute, exercise some control, you'll survive LOL!

You've been warned about this "tagging" process now, look for the signs. You have nothing to lose at this point and pretty much everything to gain, start doing some homework, you have a long road ahead of you, stop doing what doesn't work and start doing what does work.

Actions speak louder than words.


Brilliant post, Rob. For the record, I find the whole dynamic kind of sad, but I also have found it to be 100% true.

Funny creatures, ain't we?? smirk

Puppy
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Tuesday Afternoon:
Went to D5's graduation from Preschool. W was there, but I spent very litle time talking with her. She asked if I would like to walk to the store to get a little more icecream. I said I was fine either way, she said OK and went and took her mom.


WRONG ANSWER. Wishy-washy and weak.

Better: "Sounds fun; maybe a rain-check? I have to go ________ (either fill in GAL activity, or leave intentionally vague, like "have other plans I really don't want to change.")

Her touches and hugs are her way of checking to see if you're still on the other end of her string. They will INCREASE if you reject her sexually the next time, trust me.

Puppy
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 02:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: tristan

Went home and asked her to go for a walk so we could calm down. This seemed to work. By the end we were rather friendly. I showed her all the accounts last night. She gave a check (from her new checking account) to a landlord for a security deposit to hold an apartment.

Last night after the conversation we ended up ML. I am not sure how it happened, but I am a guy that has needs. Afterward, she left the bed to go sleep with MIL. She said she didn't need to be any more confused than she already was.


The process is called "tagging".
I've read quite a bit about it, specifically about women who leave their husbands to pursue affairs with other men. To get what they need from their husbands while these women are actively pursuing affairs & relationships with other men, they will sleep with their husbands to lull them into a fake sense of security. You called it making love because you (and men in general) associate sex with love when you are with wife. It made you feel more secure momentarily but it actually probably did more harm than good.

When she wants something from you, she will give you sex. She is exercising her control over you and it's working quite well apparently. Don't believe me? Good I welcome a challenge. Document this instance and the past several instances when you ML with your wife recently if she ended up getting something she needed from you. Document also when she says that she is confused after having sex with you, document if she sleeps in the bed with you to stay close with you after ML or if she leaves the bed for you to be alone afterwards. Document when she wants something from you, gets angry at you, turns things around and makes it your fault and somehow you end up apologizing.

Seems very analytical but humor me & yourself.

Also, try this if you're up for a challenge.
The next time she wants to "ML" with you (have sex), refuse.
Tell her you are confused and don't think you can have sex with her anymore. Document her reaction - maybe the first time she won't make a big deal of it but when you start holding back a few times after that, I'm betting she will get angry - she will use sex as a means to control you, or "tag" you. Refusing sex with her will make you more attractive to her - you will be communicating that you aren't conquered, you aren't waiting for the morsels & scraps of "love" she throws at you. Playing hard to get is very attractive - don't believe me? Your wife is playing that game right now and you want her back sooner than yesterday.

Just because she wiggles her ass in front of you doesn't mean you have to bite it. You're smarter than a fish, don't just bite that hook everytime you see it.

Yes you're a man and you have needs. I'm a man too, don't tell me about needs, I think about sex 90 seconds of every minute, exercise some control, you'll survive LOL!

You've been warned about this "tagging" process now, look for the signs. You have nothing to lose at this point and pretty much everything to gain, start doing some homework, you have a long road ahead of you, stop doing what doesn't work and start doing what does work.

Actions speak louder than words.


Brilliant post, Rob. For the record, I find the whole dynamic kind of sad, but I also have found it to be 100% true.

Funny creatures, ain't we?? smirk

Puppy


It is sad puppy, what it basically translates down to is the female partner looking for security that she can't get out of her existing partner. The moment she can control him and dominate is the moment she knows that she can't feel secure with him anymore, that is when she loses respect & "love" for her partner and seeks security somewhere else in another partner. You would think we are a whole lot more civilized than our mammalian ancestors but looks are deceiving.

Tristan when you get a chance, can you give me some history on your situation. What prompted your wife to seek out the OM in the first place?
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/26/09 03:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Tuesday Afternoon:
Went to D5's graduation from Preschool. W was there, but I spent very litle time talking with her. She asked if I would like to walk to the store to get a little more icecream. I said I was fine either way, she said OK and went and took her mom.


WRONG ANSWER. Wishy-washy and weak.

Better: "Sounds fun; maybe a rain-check? I have to go ________ (either fill in GAL activity, or leave intentionally vague, like "have other plans I really don't want to change.")

Her touches and hugs are her way of checking to see if you're still on the other end of her string. They will INCREASE if you reject her sexually the next time, trust me.

Puppy


Puppy you are right, her touches, hugs, kisses are her way of gauging her control of him - it's subconscious at this point but it will continue and Tristan has to know this and plan accordingly.

Tristan, am I reading this right, she asked you if you wanted to go down to the store to buy some more icecream. Did she want you to go with her & her mom, or did she want you take her mom to the store to buy some icecream while she stayed behind?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 03:04 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
Tristan when you get a chance, can you give me some history on your situation. What prompted your wife to seek out the OM in the first place?


Here is a repost from earlier in this thread:

Alright, here is my public confessional:

I guess I had some sort of mid-life crisis after our first daughter was born. I tried to cram down a lot of things that I always wanted to do, but hadn't up to that point. I trained for and ran a marathon. I started a small company on the side of my career. Between these 2 things, I had very little time to help out. W was doing laundry, cooking, taking care of the baby, while mantaining a career of her own. Now that I look back on it, I was amazingly selfish. I remember I would ask if she needed help, and she would reply "No. Do what you need to do." This was an obvious cry for help, but I was completely oblivious to it.

Our second child was born. I think I became more helpful, but not nearly as helpful as I should have been. Shortly after the birth of our second child, my W took a new position at a new company as a manager. It was her first real promotion. This is also the time that she started working under the OM (but that is a sidepoint). I was supportive of the move, but I believe there was some envy in me at the time as well. I helped out more, but it was always on my terms. And for some reason, I had some sort of anxiety over the babies myself. So to help out, I would go grocery shopping while W stayed at home and took care of the girls. W rarely got out of the house unless it was as a family or to go to work.

The new career definitely added more stress on her. She had an anxiety attack a few months after beginning it. I remember being in the emergency room at 2 AM praying that the screening for MS came back negative (the way the attack presented itself was the same as some of the MS symptoms). Fortunately, they said it was "just" anxiety.

At this point, we were having major disagreements on how we spend our free time (which given our careers we had very little of). She wanted some of her free time to go out with our own individual friends. I thought that we needed to spend more time alone together by getting a baby-sitter. But she was already feeling guilty about how little the girls were seeing of us and couldn't have a good time even when we did go out alone.

Less than a year after becoming manager, she was promoted to Assistant Director. This time I know I was envious of her promotion and it showed. I was also afraid of how much time the new position would take. It would mean more travel, late meetings, etc. I remember (and she does too) a statement I made when we were talking about a week that she needed to travel and I was going to need to take care of the children: "You always seem to be trying to fill your life with something. First it was me. When I wasn't enough you needed to get cats, so we got cats. Then when the cats weren't enough you wanted children, so we had children. And now that the children aren't enough, you are trying to fill it with your career." This statement made her extremely angry and for good reason. Her reply: "Don't you dare bring the kids into this." I think this was the most visibly angry I have ever seen her. At this point, I think our marriage was in free-fall.

However, that was not the end of it. After a bad week with a single female manager at work; I made a statement paraphrased: "All the male managers at work seem to be easy-going, but the women all seem to be such b****s". What makes it worse is that I do not swear, so the fact that I did in that statement put that much more emphasis on it. I am not proud of this statement, but it was said and can not be taken back. My W took it personally and still has not let it go.

Somewhere in this time, my W invited me to MC to see if we could get things turned around between us. I agreed and we went. From the very beginning I was feeling ganged up on; and of course I was too arrogant to believe that it could be because I was in the wrong. We were fighting mainly about who should being taking care of the children and when. I would say that we needed to get more help via a nanny or babby-sitter. She would say that it needed to be done by the parents; we were away too much as it is. The marriage counselor frustrated me because we would argue, she would look at us, sigh and say "This is hard. This is really hard." And I felt we were getting little advice on how to solve our disagreements. So in one of the sessions, I got upset and said "These sessions are doing us no good. We just go home more upset at each other than when we came." My wife didn't contend the statement and neither really did the MC. That ended a short stint of marriage counselling a couple of years ago.

However, I believe that I did take some of the sessions to heart and started helping out more around the house. I was doing laundry, washing dishes, changing diapers more than I had before. But I had this problem of always needing her to be on a schedule. If she would go out and said she would be back by 6. I expected her to be back by 6. If it didn't happen that way, I would get upset and be trying to call her at 6:01. She still reminds me of a time when she spent a month trying to get time to go out with a girlfriend and when she finally was able to schedule a breakfast date on a Saturday and she returned 2 hours late - it ruined our whole weekend because I was so upset.

Anyway, I believe that I have been gradually changing over the last 2 years to be the man she says I am today. However, she contends that I changed overnight 8 months ago when she first told me that she was having an EA and wanted to seperate.

I know there are many more times of when I have failed her. But I tried to hit the high points. I hope that is enough detail.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 03:14 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan

I guess I had some sort of mid-life crisis after our first daughter was born. I tried to cram down a lot of things that I always wanted to do, but hadn't up to that point. I trained for and ran a marathon. I started a small company on the side of my career. Between these 2 things, I had very little time to help out. W was doing laundry, cooking, taking care of the baby, while mantaining a career of her own. Now that I look back on it, I was amazingly selfish. I remember I would ask if she needed help, and she would reply "No. Do what you need to do." This was an obvious cry for help, but I was completely oblivious to it.


If you did have a MLC, you wouldn't have bothered asking her if she needed help. Her asking for help and being neglected is the security issue I have mentioned before. The theme seems to show itself in several instances.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 03:18 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan

Our second child was born. I think I became more helpful, but not nearly as helpful as I should have been. Shortly after the birth of our second child, my W took a new position at a new company as a manager. It was her first real promotion. This is also the time that she started working under the OM (but that is a sidepoint). I was supportive of the move, but I believe there was some envy in me at the time as well. I helped out more, but it was always on my terms. And for some reason, I had some sort of anxiety over the babies myself. So to help out, I would go grocery shopping while W stayed at home and took care of the girls. W rarely got out of the house unless it was as a family or to go to work.

The new career definitely added more stress on her. She had an anxiety attack a few months after beginning it. I remember being in the emergency room at 2 AM praying that the screening for MS came back negative (the way the attack presented itself was the same as some of the MS symptoms). Fortunately, they said it was "just" anxiety.


Even though you didn't communicate this envy verbally, your body language probably did in subtle ways. You showed some insecurity on your part and this affected your wife who was really feeling insecure at the time and dealing with lots of anxiety which may be related to not feeling secure around you. She may be very sensitive to this one point and it seems you kept reinforcing that you couldn't or wouldn't provide her with the security she needed at the time.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 03:26 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
[quote=robx]
At this point, we were having major disagreements on how we spend our free time (which given our careers we had very little of). She wanted some of her free time to go out with our own individual friends. I thought that we needed to spend more time alone together by getting a baby-sitter. But she was already feeling guilty about how little the girls were seeing of us and couldn't have a good time even when we did go out alone.

Less than a year after becoming manager, she was promoted to Assistant Director. This time I know I was envious of her promotion and it showed. I was also afraid of how much time the new position would take. It would mean more travel, late meetings, etc. I remember (and she does too) a statement I made when we were talking about a week that she needed to travel and I was going to need to take care of the children: "You always seem to be trying to fill your life with something. First it was me. When I wasn't enough you needed to get cats, so we got cats. Then when the cats weren't enough you wanted children, so we had children. And now that the children aren't enough, you are trying to fill it with your career." This statement made her extremely angry and for good reason. Her reply: "Don't you dare bring the kids into this." I think this was the most visibly angry I have ever seen her. At this point, I think our marriage was in free-fall.

However, that was not the end of it. After a bad week with a single female manager at work; I made a statement paraphrased: "All the male managers at work seem to be easy-going, but the women all seem to be such b****s". What makes it worse is that I do not swear, so the fact that I did in that statement put that much more emphasis on it. I am not proud of this statement, but it was said and can not be taken back. My W took it personally and still has not let it go.

Somewhere in this time, my W invited me to MC to see if we could get things turned around between us. I agreed and we went. From the very beginning I was feeling ganged up on; and of course I was too arrogant to believe that it could be because I was in the wrong. We were fighting mainly about who should being taking care of the children and when. I would say that we needed to get more help via a nanny or babby-sitter. She would say that it needed to be done by the parents; we were away too much as it is. The marriage counselor frustrated me because we would argue, she would look at us, sigh and say "This is hard. This is really hard." And I felt we were getting little advice on how to solve our disagreements. So in one of the sessions, I got upset and said "These sessions are doing us no good. We just go home more upset at each other than when we came." My wife didn't contend the statement and neither really did the MC. That ended a short stint of marriage counselling a couple of years ago.

However, I believe that I did take some of the sessions to heart and started helping out more around the house. I was doing laundry, washing dishes, changing diapers more than I had before. But I had this problem of always needing her to be on a schedule. If she would go out and said she would be back by 6. I expected her to be back by 6. If it didn't happen that way, I would get upset and be trying to call her at 6:01. She still reminds me of a time when she spent a month trying to get time to go out with a girlfriend and when she finally was able to schedule a breakfast date on a Saturday and she returned 2 hours late - it ruined our whole weekend because I was so upset.

Anyway, I believe that I have been gradually changing over the last 2 years to be the man she says I am today. However, she contends that I changed overnight 8 months ago when she first told me that she was having an EA and wanted to seperate.

I know there are many more times of when I have failed her. But I tried to hit the high points. I hope that is enough detail.


Go through the points that are in bold, all of those areas show your insecurity and you communicated that quite clearly to your wife. She lost her ability to trust you for her security. It sounds like you became jealous, insecure and clingy (wasn't home at 6pm so you called her at 6:01?)

Again this is the cliffnotes version of your situation so you're getting quick feedback on it from me but IMO, this is an issue where she didn't feel secure around you, you became more insecure & clingy, she came in contact with OM who seemed to have all of his ducks in a row, very confident, strong & secure in his place in the world which was very intoxicating for a woman who was looking for security. He apparently was in the right place at the right time.
Holy cr*p robx, there was no OM in my sitch but I don't think I have ever seen it so well articulated how destabilizing it is for a woman to lose that sense of security with her H.

I have been trying to find the words and articulate it and just couldn't beyond recognizing the "dynamic"...
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 03:43 PM
I'm glad that I could be a case study in what not to do ;-)
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 03:50 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Holy cr*p robx, there was no OM in my sitch but I don't think I have ever seen it so well articulated how destabilizing it is for a woman to lose that sense of security with her H.

I have been trying to find the words and articulate it and just couldn't beyond recognizing the "dynamic"...




And you thought all I had going for me was good looks and a great attitude ;-)

WOW! - this guy has smarts too! LOL!

Well I'm glad you can see that my education in this area isn't just stuff that I've read on the cover of a matchbook.

When it comes down to it, there is a science behind all of this, security is crucial for women, when a man shows jealousy, envy, clingy-ness (not a word but you know what I mean), anger at his wife's actions, inability to handle things without his wife having to be there, not letting his wife go out with her friends every now & then to have some individual time (not to be mistaken with wife going with OM to have individual time), this all shows insecurity and women want to feel secure with the men they're with. Without security it all goes downhill after that.

You may not agree on the dating part of my advice either but there is a science behind that as well. When I get some time I'll post the ideas behind the "dating", not to be confused with user TRROSE on another thread who is asking if she should sleep with another woman while him & his wife are apart (and I offered my 2 cents on his thread... "NO!"). No sex, dating yes, but definitely no sex, kissing, touchy feeling, sexy time explosions, no sex!!!
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 03:55 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
I'm glad that I could be a case study in what not to do ;-)


That's ok Tristan, knowing what not to do will be part of your education in knowing what to do to get her back ;-)

I can't guarantee that following my advice or anyone else's advice on this forum will get your wife back.

But I can guarantee that sitting at home playing susie q homemaker while holding down a great job and doing everything you can plus wearing a big bright smile and saying "it's ok dear, you go out there and find yourself and I'll be home waiting with this heart of mine that will love you forever" - that tells her she can definitely have no security with you whatsoever and security in your specific situation is what killed her attraction for you because this is all about attraction and being insecure & needy killed that attraction.
Quote:
sexy time explosions


LOL!

robx, I get the science but I think you underestimate a) a horny man's susceptibility to extra-marital sex when "dating" b) the devastating effects that a husband dating can have on a woman's self esteem (you all often assume OM, but what if there isn't as in my case?) c) the way the proposed dater's possibly juvenile behavior played into the dynamic and how that might be addressed prior to throwing in dating (which can be a bit juvenile when one is married)...

And I agree with the dating part in SOME sitches. I am dating now. I have an infantile husband so it fits. Plus he's been gone for 9 months.
Quote:
But I can guarantee that sitting at home playing susie q homemaker while holding down a great job and doing everything you can plus wearing a big bright smile and saying "it's ok dear, you go out there and find yourself and I'll be home waiting with this heart of mine that will love you forever" - that tells her she can definitely have no security with you whatsoever and security in your specific situation is what killed her attraction for you because this is all about attraction and being insecure & needy killed that attraction.


true!
Originally Posted By: robx
[quote=tristan]

But I can guarantee that sitting at home playing susie q homemaker while holding down a great job and doing everything you can plus wearing a big bright smile and saying "it's ok dear, you go out there and find yourself and I'll be home waiting with this heart of mine that will love you forever" - that tells her she can definitely have no security with you whatsoever and security in your specific situation is what killed her attraction for you because this is all about attraction and being insecure & needy killed that attraction.


Truer words have never been written on these forums!
whistle whistle whistle

THE COVETED "3 WHISTLES AWARD" from the Pupster!! cool
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 04:32 PM
Four whistles would have included:

But I can guarantee that sitting at home playing susie q homemaker while holding down a great job and doing everything you can plus wearing a big bright smile and saying "it's ok dear, you go out there and find yourself and I'll be home waiting with this heart of mine that will love you forever and give you foot rubs when you come home."

laugh
Coach,

While that's "LMFAO" funny, know that no one has EVER earned a "4 Whistles" award. No one. It's like an unassisted triple play in baseball, and we all know that those NEVER happen! wink
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 04:46 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Quote:
sexy time explosions


LOL!

robx, I get the science but I think you underestimate a) a horny man's susceptibility to extra-marital sex when "dating" b) the devastating effects that a husband dating can have on a woman's self esteem (you all often assume OM, but what if there isn't as in my case?) c) the way the proposed dater's possibly juvenile behavior played into the dynamic and how that might be addressed prior to throwing in dating (which can be a bit juvenile when one is married)...

And I agree with the dating part in SOME sitches. I am dating now. I have an infantile husband so it fits. Plus he's been gone for 9 months.




I was that "horny man" and I exercised an EXTRAORDINARY amount of self-control and I can't believe I'm unique in this ability plus in this situation we're not assuming there is an OM, we know it for a fact. But yes I agree sometimes we assume there is an OM in every situation and that just isn't the case.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 04:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Four whistles would have included:

But I can guarantee that sitting at home playing susie q homemaker while holding down a great job and doing everything you can plus wearing a big bright smile and saying "it's ok dear, you go out there and find yourself and I'll be home waiting with this heart of mine that will love you forever and give you foot rubs when you come home."

laugh



I have no authority to hand out puppy's coveted award but if it makes anyone feel better, I whistled 4 times.

At least we all agree that being the broken, needy, insecure man waiting for his wayward wife to return home from her affair isn't going to get the results we're intending.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 05:18 PM
W asked for Tax Returns from last 2 years so she could confirm income to landlord. I sent her pdf formats of them. She just left a message asking if there is a summary someplace that she could use, saying "These tax forms are huge!"

What is the correct response here? Can I just let it go?
Originally Posted By: tristan
W asked for Tax Returns from last 2 years so she could confirm income to landlord. I sent her pdf formats of them. She just left a message asking if there is a summary someplace that she could use, saying "These tax forms are huge!"

What is the correct response here? Can I just let it go?


OMG, regardless of her mental health status, she's a functional adult and a successful career woman. She can figure out all by her ownself the details of how to go about leaving you. DO NOT hold her hand on this. IMHO.
Also. RE: what everyone else is saying about security, etc. None of it resonates with me, but there seems to be a groundswell of support for that POV, so maybe there's something in it and I'm just a freak.

Be that as it may ... for the sake of holding a balanced view of your culpability in all this ... and this is general, not just as it applies to Tristan:

If you ASK someone if they need help and they say NO .... that is ON THEM. Take all the subtexts and "You should have knowns" out of the equation unless they were literally ON FIRE and you asked if they needed water. Some people really would rather manage for themselves; some can't swallow their pride enough to ask for help; either way, you shouldn't feel compelled to guess correctly. I strongly believe that no one has any business bailing on their marriage either in fact or in spirit until that one has articulated their dissatisfactions, disappointments, and core needs and desires repeatedly, in words of one syllable. Neither you nor your wife was put on this earth to read the others' mind. Maybe you were an ignorant, selfish, jealous putz and didn't meet her standards as a partner, husband, or father ..... but if you weren't getting feedback to that effect from her that you could clearly understand, the current state of your marriage is a *joint* responsiblity. Not hints, not this kind of passive-aggressive "no, no, I'm okay ...." which you were apparently supposed to translate as "I'm NOT ok and you should KNOW THAT" to save her from having to stand up for her preferences. I don't care how much rationalizing anyone wants to trot out about how society makes women feel like they can't/shouldn't speak up regarding their own needs/health. If a woman feels compelled to martyr herself to her family, fine, but it is fighting exceedingly dirty to try to turn that back on her partner. IMHO.

So own your own failings, absolutely, gain awareness of her needs, by all means ..... but it's not healthy for anyone if you try to take on *all* the responsibility for the broken state of your relationship or castigate yourself for missing 'clues'.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 06:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Originally Posted By: tristan
W asked for Tax Returns from last 2 years so she could confirm income to landlord. I sent her pdf formats of them. She just left a message asking if there is a summary someplace that she could use, saying "These tax forms are huge!"

What is the correct response here? Can I just let it go?


OMG, regardless of her mental health status, she's a functional adult and a successful career woman. She can figure out all by her ownself the details of how to go about leaving you. DO NOT hold her hand on this. IMHO.



Tristan you are lost here, can you not see that she has to do this herself. OMG!
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 06:37 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
W asked for Tax Returns from last 2 years so she could confirm income to landlord. I sent her pdf formats of them. She just left a message asking if there is a summary someplace that she could use, saying "These tax forms are huge!"

What is the correct response here? Can I just let it go?


She asked for the tax returns for the last 2 years,
and you did what? Please don't tell me you scanned them, converted them to pdf and then emailed them to her.

Yes you should let this go.
Tell her the forms are at home in this envelope/folder/drawer, etc. You can use them and then return them when you're done.

Tristan you are not her secretary - yes please let this go, she is a big girl, she can take care of this herself.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 07:01 PM
No. I have done the tax forms online the last 2 years via computer. There was never a paper copy. She needed them and I didn't want her looking for them on my computer; so the easiest thing was to save them as PDF and e-mail them. Was that a mistake?
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/26/09 07:16 PM
nope, it's fine, it's done, make sure that when you are going take care of something like this for her that it's on your timeline, you don't want to jump at every request and take care of it within the hour, you do have a life, you can take care of when YOU have time.
Quote:
So own your own failings, absolutely, gain awareness of her needs, by all means ..... but it's not healthy for anyone if you try to take on *all* the responsibility for the broken state of your relationship or castigate yourself for missing 'clues'.


Yes!!!

Besides, hindsight...blah blah blah...what matters is what is happening now.
Originally Posted By: tristan
W asked for Tax Returns from last 2 years so she could confirm income to landlord. I sent her pdf formats of them. She just left a message asking if there is a summary someplace that she could use, saying "These tax forms are huge!"

What is the correct response here?


A: "They are what they are."

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 01:23 PM
Journaling:
Wednesday Night:
Stop by Video store to pick up videos for girls and MIL on the way home from work. Not a lot said when I get home. MIL thank and girls thank me for the movies. W and I sit down at the table while I eat.

M: "How was your day."
W: Shruggs shoulders "You know."
M: "Anything exciting?"
W: "I got my keys."
M: "Thats good."
W: "How was yours?"
M: "OK. I was thinking of taking the girls home for Labor Day."
W: "Did you talk to your dad?"
M: "A little. He knows enough. He knows you plan on moving out."
<pause>
M: "What?"
<pause>
M: "What?"
Wife walks out looking as if she is about to cry.

I start watching the Hannah Montana movie with the girls (they are still in the half watch the movie; half play around stage). W reappears about a half hour later in a better looking mood. She watches the movie for a while and then starts removing her braids which she has had in since the beginning of July. I was truly able to enjoy the time with the girls. However, at one point in the movie, D5 started asking W and I about whether she could have a horse after we move (we had been thinking of moving to a larger place in the country at one time). It tore my heart to know how devastated she will be when she finds out the truth.

I help put the girls to sleep and get ready for bed. Not a lot said between W and I.
M: "Have a goodnight."
W: "You too. Have a goodnight sweetheart."

Finished the story of Tristan before falling asleep. FYI: In the end, he dies of a broken heart.

Wednesday morning:
I had planned on going for a little jog this morning, but W was up when I walked down about to read her divorce book. She poured me a cup of coffee, sat down, and we didn't say much at first. I don't know if it is my misperception, but she does not look like she is having an easy time with this. After a pause,
W: "So how are you doing?"
M: "I'm OK. This whole thing sucks, I'm not going to sugar coat it. But I'm doing OK." - relatively upbeat
W: "Yes. It is hard."
...
We talk a little about when and how she will move. She says she will move her things labor day weekend while I have the girls at grandparent's home. But asks if she can stay in the house for that next week because it is D5's first week of school. I agree saying, "I don't want to ruin D5's first week of school."

I tell her that I am going to start taking girls back to our old church for Sunday School. We have tried the Unity church for a little while, but I don't like it much and D5 misses old church. W agrees to taking them to the old church on the weekends that she has them. I walk out to start getting ready for work.

I walk down after getting ready, MIL had made me some oatmeal (she is very kind). Then on my way out I say bye to everyone:
M: "Have a good day."
W: "Have a good day sweetheart."
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 01:50 PM
[quoteM: "How was your day."] [/quote]

Poor question to ask anyone. Better options:
- What did you learn today?
- Who did you help today?
- What made you laugh?
- What did you do for yourself today?

Try them out and come up with your own.

Cheers
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 04:54 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
...I help put the girls to sleep and get ready for bed. Not a lot said between W and I.
M: "Have a goodnight."
W: "You too. Have a goodnight sweetheart."

Finished the story of Tristan before falling asleep. FYI: In the end, he dies of a broken heart.


I don't know if it is my misperception, but she does not look like she is having an easy time with this. After a pause,

W: "So how are you doing?"
M: "I'm OK. This whole thing sucks, I'm not going to sugar coat it. But I'm doing OK." - relatively upbeat
W: "Yes. It is hard."
...

I walk down after getting ready, MIL had made me some oatmeal (she is very kind). Then on my way out I say bye to everyone:
M: "Have a good day."
W: "Have a good day sweetheart."


I don't know about you but the "sweetheart" thing is a little too sticky sweet for my taste especially considering the fact that she is pursuing a relationship with the OM, does she call him "sweetheart" too?

Ask her to stop calling you "sweetheart", it shows you're detaching, if she asks why, tell her you're not comfortable with it anymore given the existing circumstances, tell her talking like that adds confusions to this situation and you have a clear head on all of this and want to be confusion free with your actions going forward.

No details on any of this, just leave it like that, even if she asks, tell her you prefer not to talk about it.

It shows you're detaching, it adds mystery to the situation, "what are his plans?" It shows that you are now in control - very important, up to this point, this has all been her decision, she's been calling the shot, she's been in control, now you're taking back control, showing you have some direction in all of this, you're leading your own way, it's very attractive to show control, confidence, leadership (charting your way), etc. Making the decision about the church where your kids would go was a good move, it was YOUR decision. Telling her you're taking the kids to see your dad and telling her you told him about the current situation means you're also in control, the shame/guilt of this situation isn't on you, it's on her, let her deal with that guilt.

As for her not having an easy time with this, I would say GOOD, glad to hear it, it's not your job to make any of this easy on her. Be a great person, be upbeat, be happy, positive mental attitude, throw a monkey wrench into the works, appear super upbeat & happy.

Here's another monkey wrench, on a day that you know she will be home and she expects you home at a certain time, call and tell her or your MIL you will be late, you have some plans after work and to tell the kids goodnight for you if you don't make it back before bedtime. Find something to do, stay out very late - some time of night that would be very out of character for you. Seriously I don't care what you do with your time just make sure you come home late, after midnight if possible. When you're asked where you were, tell her you're an adult and given the current situation it's none of her business anymore and leave it at that, don't be rude just be assertive, you need to appear as if you're moving on - more mystery.

As for that story of Tristan, you won't be dying of a broken heart and if you start db'ing your ass off, you may turn this thing around. And if you don't, you'll be in a better position in your own life to move forward successfully with no regrets - you will get there!
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 05:03 PM
Hmmm, I'm not so sure I would ask her to stop calling you sweetheart. If you do so, you will be training her to keep expressions of interest/affection to herself which may well be counter-productive. If she feels like she's not allowed to express those kinds of feelings toward you, it will certainly put a damper on the possibility of reconciliation.

I think it is possible for you to detach without inhibiting her positive expressions. If it's coming across as needy or manipulative on her part, then manage *yourself* and your own reaction to it.

If she's being nasty, condescending or exhibiting other poor behavior toward you then yes, set your boundaries and let her know it won't be tolerated. But I'd be more careful about positive behaviors.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 05:07 PM
I tend to agree with Dia on this one. She can do what she wants, I will control my responses to them.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 07:19 PM
So I am sitting thinking "What should my role be in telling the girls that W is moving out?". I know W expects us to tell them together. I think that is what my IC told me needs to be done for the children's sake. But seriously, what will I say? Do I need to say anything? How can I answer the questions when I don't fully comprehend why W is doing this myself?
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 07:31 PM
Quote:
So I am sitting thinking "What should my role be in telling the girls that W is moving out?". I know W expects us to tell them together. I think that is what my IC told me needs to be done for the children's sake. But seriously, what will I say? Do I need to say anything? How can I answer the questions when I don't fully comprehend why W is doing this myself?
.

let her explain it to the kids with you there. make sure you have a dialouge prior with your wife on what will be said. think thru it. you need to be confident and strong - your kids and wife will all be watching how you handle it.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 07:53 PM
Journaling:

W just left a message on the phone about a parent's event tonight. But finished it "... if you have questions or ahhhh want to talk about anything, give me a call. Bye."

Strange way to finish a message.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 09:08 PM
She's conflicted, and this is normal and understandable. Have you read (or re-read) the DB section on Last Resort?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 09:14 PM
I read it and probably need to re-read it. I think this means that it is working. But I am still bummed.

I had planned on going to play a little soccer tonight. But, daycare provider called and said that she really needs me to go to a first-aid class tonight or they will cancel it on her. She is a good friend and I don't want to let her down; so I am skipping soccer to go to first-aid class (bummer).

W is going shopping tonight to furnish her new apartment. I can't help but imagine her out with OM picking out her new decor. I need to stop doing this to myself.
Originally Posted By: tristan
So I am sitting thinking "What should my role be in telling the girls that W is moving out?". I know W expects us to tell them together. I think that is what my IC told me needs to be done for the children's sake. But seriously, what will I say? Do I need to say anything? How can I answer the questions when I don't fully comprehend why W is doing this myself?


She tells them. You are there.

Most of their questions can be anticipated. Make a list and decide what your answers will be.

Most important they need to know you both love them and that you will no matter what.

I have been through this and it was bloody hard. Others here have too. You get through it...I'm sorry.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 09:27 PM
regardless of what happens, you tell your children that "daddy & mommy" won't stop loving them and will always be there for them.

- the rest you leave for your wife to answer,
remember consequences for their actions, don't make it easy on her, don't make any of this easier on her, let her realize the weight of her decisions.
Yes, but they will ask questions most likely of the silent party. So, it is good to be prepared.

The questions trickled out over time with me...and they continue. It is the tough part but you can handle it. (If I could, anyone can).
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 09:47 PM
AAK.
Can you give me some examples of the questions they ask?

Gracias.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/27/09 09:55 PM
Re: Questions...

Was I bad?

Does Mommy/Daddy still love me/us?

Why do we have to live with Mommy/Daddy? Why can't we all live together.

Will I still have my friends/my school/my cat or dog/my toys/<whatever>?

Why don't you love Mommy anymore? (or the reverse, Why doesn't Mommy love you?)

Will Daddy (or Mommy) go away?

There will be a lot of 'whys'.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/28/09 11:02 AM
yes and I would still let her answer all of these, he can be there and offer more info but she can field all of these
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/28/09 01:30 PM
Journaling:

Thursday Evening:
Went to the First Aid class. On the way home stopped by the Art Meuseum and walked around the park area outside. There are a lot of sculptures and fountains that surround it, so it is a nice walk. Plus, it is where I went to college; this time of year brings back a lot of good memories.

Got home around 8:30. MIL was at home watching "Polly" with girls. W was not home. I let girls finish the movie and took them up to put them to bed around 9:00. Got them both to bed, but stayed in D5s bed for a while so she could talk to me about what 5 year old girls talk about. She is very excited about starting kindergarten. She is also very smart.

W must have got home around 10:00 and walked into D5s room where we were still chatting. D5 starts crying "Why do you always go away without telling me? You are never around." She is very good with the guilt-trip. She continued like that for quite some time. I didn't say anything, I just sat there. I could tell that it stressed W.

After W got D5 to calm down, I told her that her outfit and new hair (braids were out) looked nice and she asked me to follow her into our room. We sat down on the bed.
W: "I just got back from friend X's house and she wants to know how you are doing."
M: <with puzzed look> "I'm fine given the circumstances. Why was friend X asking?"
W: "It isn't just her, I wanted to know too."
M: "I'm fine."
W: "You are very strong."
M: "I find stength where I can." - I was thinking of all you here in DB-land and my new found faith in god. Thank you AAK, Robx, Breakaway, Dia, Puppy, Coach et al. You've been a great help.
...
M: "Did you find anything tonight?"
W: "I found a table and 4 chairs for $300 dollars at a second-hand store"
M: "Were they nice."
W: "Yes. I think so. Friend Y would like to sell me her couch for $200. What do you think?"
M: "I don't know. I can't remember the couch. You can do what you want. It is your money."
W: <quick deep breath> "Well I want to be careful with the money. You taught me to be careful with money."
...

D5 pulls W away and I run to drugstore to get MIL some cold medicine. Get home from drugstore, read a chapter and go to sleep.

Friday Morning:
Wake up, W is down reading "Contemplating Divorce" again. However, she has made very little headway in it. We say good morning. She thanks me for getting the medicine for MIL; saying that it was very kind. She then offers to make pancakes and asks if I would like some. I thank her and head up to get ready.

While eating I tell her that I am planning on cutting her cell phone and transfering our joint account into one that is only in my name.
W: "This feels wierd."
M: "Yes. It brings a sense of completeness."
We both stand there awkwardly. Both wanting to say more; but not.

...
M: "So what did Friend X have to say?"
W: "Not a lot. She mostly just listened."
...
M: "Have a good day."
W: "Yes you too. Have a good one."

I had to pull her car to get mine out and noticed that she had been listening to the CD I made for her this past Valentine's day.

This is hard. I really would like to tell exactly how I feel, but know that it is not time for that. I need to keep discipline.
is your wife taking her mother with her when she moves out?

SMcQ
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/28/09 01:38 PM
MIL is heading home in the middle of September. I am guessing W will move out shortly there after.
Originally Posted By: tristan
AAK.
Can you give me some examples of the questions they ask?

Gracias.


Again- these have come at various times since he left and still come 9 months later.

Why doesn't daddy want to live here?
How long is this going to last?
Do you think daddy will ever come back?


I get different versions of those questions and comments about wanting us all together.

Overall though, it has settled down and it doesn't come up as much.
Quote:
While eating I tell her that I am planning on cutting her cell phone and transfering our joint account into one that is only in my name.
W: "This feels wierd."
M: "Yes. It brings a sense of completeness."
We both stand there awkwardly. Both wanting to say more; but not.


Good move.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/28/09 02:44 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Quote:
While eating I tell her that I am planning on cutting her cell phone and transfering our joint account into one that is only in my name.
W: "This feels wierd."
M: "Yes. It brings a sense of completeness."
We both stand there awkwardly. Both wanting to say more; but not.


Good move.


You think so? I feel that we are moving in opposite directions so fast now. Sometimes I wonder if I am approaching this right.

Another thing that scares me is how fast I seem to be accepting it. Is she detaching as quickly as I am? I know I will have my down days, but sometimes I think "This won't be as hard as I originally thought." But then I think of all the implications financially and especially the impact on the children and think this isn't just about emotions; there is a lot of other things at stake here.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/28/09 02:55 PM
Quote:
While eating I tell her that I am planning on cutting her cell phone and transfering our joint account into one that is only in my name.
W: "This feels wierd."
M: "Yes. It brings a sense of completeness."
We both stand there awkwardly. Both wanting to say more; but not.



Be bold, strong and confident. So then turn and leave the room. Nothing else needs to be said.

Yes, there a lot of things at stake. How much of this do you control? Do you have a choice in the seperation? The key is in how you handle it. You have to prepare for either outcome and the sooner your wife sees that you are handling it then the quicker she sees life without you.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Quote:
While eating I tell her that I am planning on cutting her cell phone and transfering our joint account into one that is only in my name.
W: "This feels wierd."
M: "Yes. It brings a sense of completeness."
We both stand there awkwardly. Both wanting to say more; but not.


Good move.


You think so? I feel that we are moving in opposite directions so fast now. Sometimes I wonder if I am approaching this right.

Another thing that scares me is how fast I seem to be accepting it. Is she detaching as quickly as I am? I know I will have my down days, but sometimes I think "This won't be as hard as I originally thought." But then I think of all the implications financially and especially the impact on the children and think this isn't just about emotions; there is a lot of other things at stake here.


We all go through this. You could do what I did and martyr yourself, torture yourself thinking about the nightmare that divorce will be and how it will destroy your lives...at least for me, it just led to my H having all of the control and messing with me more, my kids suffering and me ending up near suicidal.

I suggest you get your sh*t together sooner than later. You can love someone and want a different outcome without devolving into depression and agonizing over it. It is part of growing up and leading.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/28/09 03:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
How much of this do you control? Do you have a choice in the seperation?


Not sure if these were rhetorical, but the answers are very little and no.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/28/09 05:16 PM
Would it be wrong to try to get the W, girls, MIL & I out together as a family this weekend? Does it go against what I am trying to obtain?
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/28/09 10:22 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Would it be wrong to try to get the W, girls, MIL & I out together as a family this weekend? Does it go against what I am trying to obtain?


What do you get out of this?

I'm not saying you can't do any of it but are you trying to get something out of this by doing any of this?

If you want to get the entire family out for the weekend for some fun or because you want to, by all means do it.

If you're doing it to advance your DB'ing goals, not sure how that will be accomplished by this.

By having a great weekend with your kids, MIL, W, will this make your W think twice about leaving for the OM? I don't think that is what will happen - I could be wrong.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/29/09 01:11 PM
Journaling:

Friday Evening:
Went to video store with the girls and picked out some movies. Girls, W & I watched "Anastasia" together. It was relaxing. We put the girls to bed. W said she wanted to watch one of the movies I had rented for MIL. I asked if she minded if I watched it with her. She said "Of course not." This in retrospect was a bad move.

We watched "Nights in Rodanthe", not a good plot for our situation. We talked a little after the movie; W mentioned how strong I have been again. But also alluded to how our lives could be better if we were apart. She gave me a hug and this time I held onto it too long. We said good night and went to bed.

Saturday Morning:
W is going to get the table delivered to apartment. I am going to play some soccer. I am having a very difficult time this morning. W and I have been pleasant, but I feel distance growing between us. I need to get some discipline and stop obsessing about this. Hopefully soccer will help me get my mind off this.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/30/09 06:07 PM
Journaling:

Saturday Afternoon:
W stops by soccer and asks to switch vehicles. She needs to go get beds for the apartment and figures I may need the carseats in case I want to take the girls somewhere.
W: "You still sprint very well."

Felt a little better after soccer. Went home and played with the girls for a while. Mousetrap was the game they chose. Around 5, W wasn't home and I started to get restless. I told MIL that I was going to go out for a bit. Ran to the mall to get some jeans that fit me. I have lost a decent amount weight since this whole thing started. So I got a new outfit and headed home. W called and asked if I wanted to help set stuff up at the new apartment. I said no thankyou, I thought I might go out with some of the guys tonight. Although, I had no place to go at the time. I stopped at home said goodnight to the girls and showed W new outfit. I just went to a sports bar watched a little football and ate dinner. Then hopped over to another less crowded bar and ordered a beer. Sad I know, but I didn't want to help W decorate her new place. Plus, I found that you can get free drinks if you tell the bartender that your W just left you after 10 yrs. I stayed out till 1:30. The bartenders and some of their friends kept me company.

When I got home W was asleep in our bed. She didn't want to leave girls upstairs alone. I slipped in on my side and went to sleep.

Sunday Morning:
Went to IHOP with girls, W and MIL this morning. Then I went to church while the rest went to get school clothes. W and I did have a moment of looking into each others eyes this morning. She said: "Sometimes I feel like goind and others I fell like staying. I look at that as a good thing." Other than that, we have been pretty much simply cordial.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/30/09 06:43 PM
Tristan you going out to a couple of bars and having a few drinks & dinner by yourself isn't sad, I'm actually pretty damn proud of you for doing that.

And you did the right thing not going to the apartment and helping decorate it, seriously bro, you are doing it, as hard as it is, you are doing the right things. Sometimes you just need some reinforcement & encouragement so here it is, you're doing great and handling this like a champ.

The new outfit thing is a good idea, you need to start doing more of that, losing weight, going to a gym, playing sports, it's all good, all part of that GAL idea, keep it going!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/30/09 07:23 PM
W just went with MIL over to new place to meet a friend and set some things up. She says she won't be long, but I have no idea what that means anymore. It could mean several hours. I am very disappointed in her. I know deep down she knows we could make this marriage work. She just doesn't have the heart to try.

I know that detaching from her is good for my mental health; but I am not so sure it is good for our marriage. But at this point there may not be much of a marriage to save.

Sometimes, I think she just wants to see if she can live without me. If she can, then screw commitment. If she can't, then that proves that we were meant to be together. Does she realize the damage that she is doing to this marriage? How will I ever be able to fully trust her commitment to me again?
Originally Posted By: robx
Tristan you going out to a couple of bars and having a few drinks & dinner by yourself isn't sad, I'm actually pretty damn proud of you for doing that.

And you did the right thing not going to the apartment and helping decorate it, seriously bro, you are doing it, as hard as it is, you are doing the right things. Sometimes you just need some reinforcement & encouragement so here it is, you're doing great and handling this like a champ.

The new outfit thing is a good idea, you need to start doing more of that, losing weight, going to a gym, playing sports, it's all good, all part of that GAL idea, keep it going!


Agreed.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/30/09 09:32 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
W just went with MIL over to new place to meet a friend and set some things up. She says she won't be long, but I have no idea what that means anymore. It could mean several hours. I am very disappointed in her. I know deep down she knows we could make this marriage work. She just doesn't have the heart to try.

I know that detaching from her is good for my mental health; but I am not so sure it is good for our marriage. But at this point there may not be much of a marriage to save.

Sometimes, I think she just wants to see if she can live without me. If she can, then screw commitment. If she can't, then that proves that we were meant to be together. Does she realize the damage that she is doing to this marriage? How will I ever be able to fully trust her commitment to me again?


Can she live without you? Yeah, probably.
You can probably live without her.
Seriously, we're all adults, individuals, we can survive on our own, it is our preference however to share our lives with someone, to be in a relationship with someone.

Commitment is a $20 word these days which doesn't get looked at alot when you have everyone shopping for bargains, more for less.

As sciences & stats go, commitment seems to be something men want more of than women which surprises me quite a bit but then when you think about it, it probably makes sense.

Does she realize the damage she is doing? I think the answer is yes and something inside her still tells her to continue on this path because she needs to be proven wrong by something/someone other than you. The affair is too exciting, these feelings she's having (everyone refers to them as "fake" love brain chemicals, they're not fake BTW, they're the same chemicals that were present when she first started being attracted to you) are too strong and she is in love with her emotions right now, logic plays no role in any of these decisions. The sooner you come to grips with this fact, the sooner you can let go of the issue of whether or not she knows the problems she's causing.

If you guys get this thing turned around, trust is something she will have to rebuild with you when you're in the driver's seat again. It can be done, through consistency of action but that isn't where you are at right now so no need to focus on that at this point.

Tristan, keep on what you're doing, you're doing good.
Expect the high's & low's, we've all gone through them. Keep on journaling, keep on documenting her actions, moods, emotions, see her reaction to changes you make in your life, see what works, what doesn't. Doesn't feel like it but this is a game you're playing and you're trying to find out what actions provide winning results.

How are you feeling today?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/30/09 10:01 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
How are you feeling today?


Right now, Angry.

But earlier, I really wanted her back and she sensed it. My emotions are swinging; sometimes I can't think of a life without her; the next I can't imagine letting her come back. I guess it goes with this territory. By the way, I just bought "No More Mr Nice Guy.", " Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men", and "Being the Strong Man a Woman Wants: Timeless Wisdom on Being a Man". Which one would you suggest I read first?

Thanks Robx.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/30/09 10:28 PM
they're all good, Hold on to your nuts and No More Mr.Nice Guy stand out as the ones that helped me the most, but you'll get something different from each one of those and collectively you'll learn alot, some of them will be an eye opener - alot of what you will learn will be counter-intuitive to what you've known all your life and you won't believe some of it but trust me, it's an education you've been missing out on for quite some time.
Tristan,

Has your W ever lived on her own; and I mean ALONE? No roommate..no BF..no parents? I noticed in my W an unquenchable desire to prove to the world that she could live on her own; not that she has proven that to be true. But it was her desire.

Now she'll get a chance to prove it!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/31/09 02:19 AM
Tonight we watched "The Borrowers" with the girls. W did role over a couple of times so that we touched. I moved away both times. I was and still am angry with her. Now I am angry because I know how this is going to affect the girls and she is being so non-chalant about it. She says she believes it will be good for us. She did not want to talk much tonight making a dash for the basement saying "Good night sweetie."

It is hard for me to show I care and put up strict boundaries at the same time. I think I am doing OK, but it feels so ackward. I did alright tonight, I believe.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/31/09 02:22 AM
Originally Posted By: marriedCrazy
Tristan,

Has your W ever lived on her own; and I mean ALONE? No roommate..no BF..no parents? I noticed in my W an unquenchable desire to prove to the world that she could live on her own; not that she has proven that to be true. But it was her desire.

Now she'll get a chance to prove it!


As far as I know, I do not believe that she was ever seriously alone. The year we were engaged, she had her own place; but you know how that goes. But now that I think about it, neither did I; I always had a roomate too. This will be a whole new experience for me as well.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/31/09 12:24 PM
Journaling:

Monday morning:
Woke up before rest of family. Was ready for work and nearly out the door when W walked up. She looked a little surprised that I was ready already.

M: "Good morning."
W: "Good morning."

I finish getting ready.

M: "Can you give me a list of the things you plan on taking with you when you move."
W: "Yes. I can do that. When do you plan on going to your parents?"
M: "Probably on Friday. When do you plan on moving?"
W: "I asked Friend X and Friend Y if they can help on Saturday."
M: "What did friend Y say about this?" - Friend Y is an ex-nun that seemed to push her lightly to stay in the marriage just a few months ago.
W: <pause> "She said that I need to do what I think is right. I really don't know what is going to come of this. I need to do it as part of my life journey."
M: "OK. Have a good day."
W: "Have a good day."
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/31/09 01:10 PM
Back to children. I just read something Gucci wrote, saying that RedSoxFan should push W to watch children as much as possible to put a wedge in her affair.

1. Practically, I think it may help save the marriage.
2. Morally, I believe it to be horrible to use children like that. However, if it saves the marriage in the end (which is ultimately the best end for the children), does the end justify the means.

I believe that I will be facing similiar delimmas in the future. For example, do I take the children as much as possible to be a good father and give my children the best possible life given the horrible situation, which will give her an easier path to be with OM. Or do I seek more quality time with girls (less quantity) and let her feel the pressures of what life as a single mom will be. I feel horrible for it, but I must admit this thought has crossed my mind.

I want to be the best person and father I can be. Can you guys help me out here.
Quote:
do I take the children as much as possible to be a good father and give my children the best possible life given the horrible situation, which will give her an easier path to be with OM.


Who cares about the path to OM? Of course you get your kids as much as possible, 90% of the time if you can get away with it. You are still too busy factoring in your decision based on how it will impact her. Let her walk her own walk and you do what you feel is best for you.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/31/09 06:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Phoenixdeux
Of course you get your kids as much as possible, 90% of the time if you can get away with it.


Thank you for your post Phoenix, I feel guilty for even posting the question. But wouldn't 90% me/10% her be just as bad as 10% me/90% her? The girls still need contact with their mother.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/31/09 09:50 PM
Journaling:

Today I started getting prepared for seperation. Opened a new checking account for myself. Cancelled cleaning service because I won't be able to afford it anymore. These are really hard things for me to do, but I need to do them to move forward. I am holding off on stopping W cell phone service. MIL still uses her phone and I do not want to turn it off on her.

Its been hard today. But in a different way. It isn't: "oh my god how am I ever going to live without her" anymore. It is more: "How can she do this to the girls. And life as a single parent is going to suck. And am I going to have to stay in this town till D3 turns 18?" That is where I am today.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/31/09 10:13 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:

Today I started getting prepared for seperation. Opened a new checking account for myself. Cancelled cleaning service because I won't be able to afford it anymore. These are really hard things for me to do, but I need to do them to move forward. I am holding off on stopping W cell phone service. MIL still uses her phone and I do not want to turn it off on her.

Its been hard today. But in a different way. It isn't: "oh my god how am I ever going to live without her" anymore. It is more: "How can she do this to the girls. And life as a single parent is going to suck. And am I going to have to stay in this town till D3 turns 18?" That is where I am today.


Regardless of the outcome, you'll be able to handle all of this.

And when your wife mentions that what she's doing is going to benefit both of you and possibly make your relationship stronger if you ever reconcile, I would tell her not to count on you waiting for her should her affair not work out, you have more respect for yourself than to be someone's 2nd option/backup plan.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants separation - 08/31/09 10:16 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan

- Opened a new checking account for myself.
- Cancelled cleaning service because I won't be able to afford it anymore.

These are really hard things for me to do, but I need to do them to move forward.

- I am holding off on stopping W cell phone service. MIL still uses her phone and I do not want to turn it off on her.


Ask your wife to pick up a new cell phone today, seriously it will take maybe an hour if that. Cell phone service providers are everywhere, if she has time to have lunch with the OM, go shopping for things for her new place, she has time to take care of business in other areas which means you won't have to be providing those things for her. Seriously Tristan, she's been using a phone that you pay for to call & conversate with the OM. When you take the cell phone back from her and/or cancel the service, you aren't taking anything away from your mother in law, you can shift that responsibility on to your wife and stop feeling guilty because of it, have some self-respect for yourself, do this today!
I agree with robx on the cell phone. Cancel hers; why should you pay for means to contact an OM?

I cut my wife's phone off and boy did it empower me!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/01/09 02:38 AM
Journaling:

Following Coach's advice, I asked "Did you learn anything new today?" of my W.

W: "I learned I miss my old job. That I don't really enjoy my new job as much as I should. I was reading 'Standing at the Crossroads' and found that I am right on track.
M: "Of successful women?"
W: "No. Of the stages. It says that 29 to 33 is when women focus on their careers to the detriment of other parts of their life. Family, relationships, etc. ... This is the stage when most seperations and divorces occur."
W: "... the next stage is more hopeful."
M: "If it isn't too late."
W: "It is when women begin to work on wholeness. Start to work on important relationships and connections. ..."

OM is the one that helped her get current job. She took it as him helping her to move her along in her career. I look at it as a way to get her out from under his management so he could pursue her without the threat of sexual harassment looming.
Posted By: june72 Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/01/09 04:03 AM
Oh my lord, that OM is just vile! It ticks me off to read about it.
I think the same way as you, as posted earlier
"How can you do this to the children?"
I squirm whenever I read these interactions..they sound so kissa$$. It sounds like you are just waiting for a reason to save her. I don't sense a strength in you...primarily because I never saw anything about boundaries and you make excuses why you can't turn off your wife's phone. It's okay to say, "I'm afraid she'll be mad at me." We'll say don't worry about whether she's mad, you just tell her that it's nothing personal, you are just getting YOUR life in order.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/01/09 01:10 PM
Journaling:

Tuesday morning:
Went for a short walk this morning. My knee is still swollen from Saturday's soccer match, so running would be a little too painful. The air has been crisp these last few days; it is feeling like fall. The walk was relaxing. Everyone was still asleep when I got back, so went up to get ready.

W walked in the bathroom as I was getting out of the shower, she stands there briefly.
W: "May I have a hug."
M: <Deep Breath>
W: "That's OK, I understand."
M: "No. You should hear this. It's something I have been discussing with IC."
W: "You don't want to send me mixed messages?"
M: "No. I shouldn't feel like I need to compete with OM."
W: "You're right. You shouldn't."
M: "It is demeaning to me and I am a better man than that."
W: "You are."
M: "It doesn't mean that I am not willing to work on the marriage. It's just all part of working on myself."
W: "That's fine."

She then turns to start getting ready. It didn't seem to have much impact on her, but it did feel good to say it.

Also, I forgot to mention that in part of the discussion yesterday W mentioned that she "doesn't feel grounded" and that she feels "like I am floating". I am not sure how to interpret that; I guess it is similiar to discussions where she has said that she is a "lost soul".
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/01/09 01:28 PM
Originally Posted By: june72
Oh my lord, that OM is just vile! It ticks me off to read about it.
I think the same way as you, as posted earlier
"How can you do this to the children?"


Thank you for reading June. I really enjoyed your poem; you have talent. I have not gotten a chance to read your sitch, but hopefully I will get a chance sometime soon.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/01/09 07:42 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:

Tuesday morning:
Went for a short walk this morning. My knee is still swollen from Saturday's soccer match, so running would be a little too painful. The air has been crisp these last few days; it is feeling like fall. The walk was relaxing. Everyone was still asleep when I got back, so went up to get ready.

W walked in the bathroom as I was getting out of the shower, she stands there briefly.
W: "May I have a hug."
M: <Deep Breath>
W: "That's OK, I understand."
M: "No. You should hear this. It's something I have been discussing with IC."
W: "You don't want to send me mixed messages?"
M: "No. I shouldn't feel like I need to compete with OM."
W: "You're right. You shouldn't."
M: "It is demeaning to me and I am a better man than that."
W: "You are."
M: "It doesn't mean that I am not willing to work on the marriage. It's just all part of working on myself."
W: "That's fine."

She then turns to start getting ready. It didn't seem to have much impact on her, but it did feel good to say it.

Also, I forgot to mention that in part of the discussion yesterday W mentioned that she "doesn't feel grounded" and that she feels "like I am floating". I am not sure how to interpret that; I guess it is similiar to discussions where she has said that she is a "lost soul".


You can't read her mind so you don't know how much of an impact it had on her.

If you had asked her for a hug and she replied in the same way you did, how would you feel? You may act strong on the outside but inside you might feel hurt, rejected, etc. It's not out of this world to consider the possibility that she might feel the same. No one said she did feel the same, it may not have affected her at all but it might have.

No one likes to be rejected (usually).
You also showed control and decisiveness, you decided not to hug her, you showed her you're detaching, there's a bit of power in those actions.

So your wife comes into the bathroom just when you finish taking a shower, she catches a glimpse of you without clothes on, she wants to touch you, hug you, etc. Maybe I'm reading too much but I think some attraction still exists and you pushing her away (even just a bit as in this example) was excellent because there is a lot of push/pull going on here. For the longest time during this, you were pulling her towards you and she was pushing you away and now you're slowly turning this around, you're pushing her away and trust me you will start to see her pull you towards her more. There is no mistaking this, this happened here and it will happen again.

Take it a step further, the next time you're showering and you step out of the shower and she "happens" to come into the bathroom, tell her "I would like some privacy, can you please leave the bathroom while I get ready" and put a towel around your waste and follow her to the door and lock it behind her.

What will follow afterwards be it within the same few minutes, hours or same day, she will ask you why you mind so much if she looks at you when you come out of the shower. It will happen, I can't guarantee the specific time line but it will happen. More of you pushing her away and more of her trying to pull you back in.

How are you feeling today Tristan?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/01/09 08:15 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
How are you feeling today Tristan?


I am feeling OK. It's hard, but I am handling myself. I just cancelled the phone service. The service runs through pay period anyway, so MIL will be able to use phone till she leaves.

I am really hoping that she starts to pull (as you say). We don't talk much anymore; we don't touch at all (this is of my doing). It feels like we are running in opposite directions as fast as we can. It is definitely counter-intuitive. I don't feel like I am working on saving this marriage at all.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/01/09 09:16 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan

W: "You don't want to send me mixed messages?"
M: "No. I shouldn't feel like I need to compete with OM."
W: "You're right. You shouldn't."
M: "It is demeaning to me and I am a better man than that."
W: "You are."
M: "It doesn't mean that I am not willing to work on the marriage. It's just all part of working on myself."
W: "That's fine."

She then turns to start getting ready. It didn't seem to have much impact on her, but it did feel good to say it.

Also, I forgot to mention that in part of the discussion yesterday W mentioned that she "doesn't feel grounded" and that she feels "like I am floating". I am not sure how to interpret that; I guess it is similiar to discussions where she has said that she is a "lost soul".


Instead of saying "I shouldn't feel like I need to compete with the OM", you should be saying:
"I won't compete with the OM anymore, it's not worth it"

Instead of saying "It is demeaning to me and I am a better man than that", you should be saying:
"It's not worth it to me anymore when I know I'm the better man"

Do you see how the twist of a few words adds more meaning to what you're saying?

When you said "I shouldn't feel like I need to compete", you communicated that you feel the need to compete with the OM for your wife. She hears this and knows this and probably knew it already. That's why you pushing her away is important, it communicates that you're done playing that game because you know you don't have to anymore - it's very important to have that frame of mind, you will view things properly without feeling insecure & needy anymore.

When you said "It is demeaning to me and I am a better man than that", you are communicating how this is affecting you, you don't need to tell her that you feel that this is demeaning you, you need to communicate now that you could care less, the sooner she leaves the better, because you're ready to move on with your life.

Push/Pull, it's very subtle but I can feel it in your posts when you describe the dialog & interaction between the two of you, it's there, you're slowing turning it around, you're slowing creating space between the two of you and it's space that you are choosing to create and she is trying to fill it.

You mentioned when will she start pulling you in, she is already, when she comes into the bathroom after you finish showering to view you, she's trying to pull you to her, when she asks for a hug, she is trying to pull you toward her because I think she is feeling that you are pushing her away.

Human beings want what they can't have, when you start communicating to her (indirectly & directly) that she can't have you anymore and if she thinks she can find herself and then decide to come back to your loving arms, she is mistaken. When she has the choice between you and the OM, it's a safe place to be for her. If it doesn't work out she knows she can come back to you until the next OM comes into the picture after this guy and she'll pull this stuff again. When you communicate that you won't be there, the situation is no longer safe, it's dangerous, there are consequences for those actions, no more backup plan, no more second option, you communicate that you respect yourself enough to let go of her because she doesn't value you or care about your feelings. You detach, show less emotion to her, stop talking to her as much, let her initiation conversations otherwise you'll say nothing(and at the same time, maintain a strong PMA and remain upbeat). Trust me it all has an effect on her, you will notice it more & more.

It's time to be assertive, you are better, you deserve better, what is happening now is wrong and you know it. Time to turn things around and make it work for you.

Do you have a date for this friday?
Even if it's a fake one where you are not going to be home friday evening, where you will be getting ready at home and if you are lucky, she will be there as well and get a glimpse of you showering and spending extra time in the bathroom looking good, fixing the hair, putting on the special cologne, dressing up with the attractive clothing, etc. And when you are asked where you are going, you only say "I'm going out with a friend" and smile but don't maintain eye contact, look away when you say it... as if to feel a little guilty for possibly going out on a date with another woman.

Fear of loss, jealousy, all these things do wonders to wake up a WAS who is having an affair because the mental picture they set up when they started all of this never included you doing the same thing back to them.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 02:28 AM
Originally Posted By: robx
Do you have a date for this friday?


This weekend I am taking the girls to my parents place. W is planning on moving her stuff out. Kind of sucks, but I am not going to let the girls see W moving out.

The next weekend I am going out of town for Saturday. Not sure what I will do Friday night yet. I do not feel comfortable dating, but going out without W knowing where I am going is fine.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 02:48 AM
Journaling:

Tuesday Evening
Stopped by video store to swap movies on the way home from work. D6 was all excited to tell me that she road a bicycle without training wheels today. I was impressed and was going to go out with her so she could show me. W came home before we were out the door, so we all decided to make a trip to the local elementary school where she would have plenty of room to ride. It was a nice trip. When we got home W asked if I wanted to join them in walking to the corner store to get icecream. I did, we shared a container of Häagen-Dazs Banana Split.

W seemed more talkative this evening. We didn't talk about anything in particular, mainly just about work. She did ask the "How are you doing?" question. I simply said "Fine." Which sometimes I really think I am. I did cut the conversation, saying "Have a good night." and walking upstairs.

Checked the phone messages, one was from lawyer W contacted when she decided to seperate: "We have been trying to contact you for a couple of weeks now, please call." I saved it, but did not mention it to W yet. Suggestions?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 11:56 AM
Journaling:

Wednesday Morning:
I didn't sleep that well last night. Was having dreams with W in them, but that is about all I remember. W asked me to wake her up early this morning, so I knocked on her door a 6 AM. There wasn't much of a conversation this morning.

I found that she marked a page in the 'Standing at the Crossroads' book that she discussed on Monday. Right in the middle of the page was a paragragh on how women can grow from divorce. One senetence stated that women can find their authentic selves by breaking away from their marriage. She talked about how she is in the stage of finding her authentic self in our conversation on Monday. Another sentence stated that it made it possible to begin a new intimate relationship. Uugh. This discovery has put a damper on my day. I need to work more on the detachment.
(((((HURL!))))) sick sick laugh
I hate these books.

New age crap. Where have family values gone?
Posted By: Orich Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 01:33 PM
Don't get me started on the loss of family values. My 75 year old FIL said to me the other day about his own daughter, "I don't understand her, why won't she put more effort into this. It is way too easy for people to just divorce nowadays, I think that it has become too much of an easy, lazy way out."
Smart man.
Originally Posted By: tristan
I found that she marked a page in the 'Standing at the Crossroads' book that she discussed on Monday. Right in the middle of the page was a paragragh on how women can grow from divorce. One senetence stated that women can find their authentic selves by breaking away from their marriage. She talked about how she is in the stage of finding her authentic self in our conversation on Monday.

Where in the book does it cite the statistics showing the large number of divorced people who carry regret with them for the rest of their lives? Both of my divorced parents, on several separate occasions, have begged and pleaded with me to do everything possible to save my marriage and family. They have both happily remarried but obviously carry a regret with them that will never go away.

We can do better!!!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 02:43 PM
OK. I am actually going to go back and defend the book and its authors a little. There was only 1 paragragh on "Growth from Divorce" in a book that is about 300 pages long. The first couple sentences did state that many women analyse and learn how they contributed to the failure of the marriage.

My W received this book while attending a leadership program. She came back saying that she learned that she was focusing too much on her job and neglecting other parts of her life. At that point she really wanted to focus more on the family. She said the leadership program made her realize that. Now obviously she has backtracked a little, but I wouldn't blame it on this book. From what I have read, it is relatively balanced.
Let's back up a little bit. Why was it necessary for you to wake her up at 6AM?
This book may be a little more realistic, but there are so many others that just seem to promote the "joys or divorce" and how empowered women need to do this and live their dreams.

Blech!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 03:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Let's back up a little bit. Why was it necessary for you to wake her up at 6AM?


She asked to either have the alarm clock or to be woken up early. I am already up at that time so it is easier for me to knock on the door.

I am trying to remain friendly. I am not sure if I see a point in cutting off all communication. I have definitely put up boundaries; no more touching, hugging, etc. Is there a good reason to be hostile?
No one said to be hostile. Friendly is fine. Wrapped around her little finger...not so fine. Agree with turning down the hug, but I agree with the stronger wording suggested.
Dunno. This really is "just my opinion", not advice per se. But that kind of thing .... still seems a bit lapdoggy, rescuing to me. Do you *really* only have one alarm clock in the whole house? No travel alarm, not an alarm on anyone's phone or laptop? If her alarm clock got dropped in the toilet, how would she get herself out of bed, if there was no "you"?

It's not that this is a big thing, in isolation. It's one of many courtesies she is going to lose by not having you live as her husband. All this stuff about detaching, not being too conveniently there, etc .... it's not meant to be hostile. It's meant to be realistic. By her actions, she may well be cutting herself off from your supportive helpfulness forever. I don't think she really understands that.

I think she has this vision of you there, waiting, to pick her up if she falls. That sounds nice on the surface, but isn't really healthy for her. Plus, it demonstrates exactly zero respect for you. If there wasn't another man involved, if she was just taking some time to "find herself" ... that *might* be different. But those are not the facts of your current reality.

She needs to FEEL what she may well be losing. You can say, "Well, as soon as she moves out, she'll feel it." Possibly true. But if her final days and hours with you are filled with even this kind of low-level caretaking ... it's only human to take for granted that she'll be able to pick right back up where she's left off. She sat up and took notice when you stopped the touching, didn't she? So give her some more losses to take notice of.

It's not really rational to expect a person to make the difficult decision when she gets almost as many benefits plus a bunch more outside the marriage when she makes the selfish decision......IMHO.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 03:58 PM
Yes. I have taken the view that she will see this when she does move out. And I don't find it productive to make her last week in the house one of petty arguments. I have already told her that I am not sure when I will be able to go to her new place, saying I needed to show my disapproval in some way. She argued the point a little, but let it go after I said would talk it over with IC on next visit to see if it was a reasonable stance. I don't see why it wouldn't be considered reasonable. Part of my reasoning on this is exactly that, I want her to see all the small things I do around the house.
What's all this with her new place? Why does she want you there?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 04:31 PM
She says that she will still have me over to hang out. Her thinking is really confusing. She says that she would like to go out on dates after she moves out. I take this as "Believe nothing that you hear", but that is what she says.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 04:41 PM
FYI, I've not seen a cell phone yet that didn't have an alarm. Mine even has a M-F setting, so the alarm automatically stops for Sat/Sun.
Good God these people are confusing!

I think that I would explode from spending 10 minutes in one of their heads.

I haven't seen many sitches where people have reconsiled where they haven't gotten the time apart. Maybe this is a good thing.
Shouldn't that function work even if the service is discontinued? Or not?

Tristan .... she told you (because I went back and checked) that she wants to move out to explore a relationship with OM. And yet she wants to have you over to "hang out". And when you demur, she gets upset and wants you to justify your position? And you actually defer to your ICs input on the reasonableness of your objections??????

I can't think of better proof that she does NOT get it. That she envisions being able to eat lots of yummy cake. You do *both of you* a favor by standing your ground and disabusing her of that illusion in no uncertain terms.

Stating "I'm not sure when I'll be able to come over" in a way that makes it sounds like you're being petty and "punishing her" for now but might change your mind when you get over your sulk is not standing your ground. As a woman, I would have very little respect for a man who would EVER "hang out with" a wife who moved out to pursue other men. That is NOT a position to justify. It is a position to STATE while looking at her like she has two heads for expecting otherwise. IMHO.

It is NEVER mean, hostile, or unloving to deliver a much-needed reality check in a calm and serious manner.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 05:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Shouldn't that function work even if the service is discontinued? Or not?

Tristan .... she told you (because I went back and checked) that she wants to move out to explore a relationship with OM. And yet she wants to have you over to "hang out". And when you demur, she gets upset and wants you to justify your position? And you actually defer to your ICs input on the reasonableness of your objections??????

I can't think of better proof that she does NOT get it. That she envisions being able to eat lots of yummy cake. You do *both of you* a favor by standing your ground and disabusing her of that illusion in no uncertain terms.

Stating "I'm not sure when I'll be able to come over" in a way that makes it sounds like you're being petty and "punishing her" for now but might change your mind when you get over your sulk is not standing your ground. As a woman, I would have very little respect for a man who would EVER "hang out with" a wife who moved out to pursue other men. That is NOT a position to justify. It is a position to STATE while looking at her like she has two heads for expecting otherwise. IMHO.

It is NEVER mean, hostile, or unloving to deliver a much-needed reality check in a calm and serious manner.


You are absolutly correct. Thank you.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 05:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Energizer Bunny
Good God these people are confusing!

I think that I would explode from spending 10 minutes in one of their heads.

I haven't seen many sitches where people have reconsiled where they haven't gotten the time apart. Maybe this is a good thing.


Considering the crazy number of divorces that currently take place and another startling stat that as many as 70-75% of divorces are instigated by women, I think it's safe to say space isn't necessarily a good thing. Separation is a prelude to divorce plain & simple, don't kid yourself.

Separatedness (if that's a word) is good in a relationship, where you're not hanging off each other 24/7. Being individuals and spending some time apart and still spending time together is a good thing.

But separation, living apart is not a good thing.
Seriously EB, I'd love to hear the rational thinking behind that statement that says physically separating and living separate lives is a good thing for a marriage: quite the opposite, people get used to living separately and without the other person and it can be very hard to reverse that once a person gets used to this.

I'll say it again, separation is a prelude to divorce: separate living equals separate thinking.

Of all the situations you mentioned where people reconciled where they were living apart, how many of those are on this particular forum? The numbers don't substantiate that type of logic.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 05:17 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
I'd love to hear the rational thinking behind that statement that says physically separating and living separate lives is a good thing for a marriage: quite the opposite, people get used to living separately and without the other person and it can be very hard to reverse that once a person gets used to this.

I'll say it again, separation is a prelude to divorce: separate living equals separate thinking.


Why then are you so quick to suggest kicking out spouses having affairs as a way to save the marriage? I know you will have a good answer for this, but would like to read the rational.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 05:19 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Let's back up a little bit. Why was it necessary for you to wake her up at 6AM?


She asked to either have the alarm clock or to be woken up early. I am already up at that time so it is easier for me to knock on the door.

I am trying to remain friendly. I am not sure if I see a point in cutting off all communication. I have definitely put up boundaries; no more touching, hugging, etc. Is there a good reason to be hostile?


You don't have to remain anything.
I told you that if you create a small amount of space between you, she will fill that space, I guarantee it. But when you're friendly and doing things for her, you still communicate that while she is hurting you & disrespecting you (ie. OM) that you will still be there to take care of her and she has to know and you have to know that this isn't reality - how could it be.

When she lives on her own, are you going to call her at 6am to wake her up.

It's got nothing to do with being nice, you are nice, you don't have to do things to prove it and you continually show to her that you do have to prove it, deep down you don't believe that you are nice guy so you have to do things to prove it. How about being confident that you are a great guy and that means not having to prove it.

No more wake up calls, she's an adult, if you can get up at a certain time, I'm sure she can also and how she does this is no longer your responsibility. She has made alot of choices, decisions, taken alot of actions that didn't require your assistance & input, time to let her do everything for herself and realize what life without Tristan really is like.

No one is saying be hostile or argue, in fact don't argue at all - you don't need to, you respect yourself to much to argue with her.

Just let her take care of her.

Plus these ideas of dating you while she is living on her own while what... dating the OM? Great, you need to compete with the OM for her, she is trying to pull you into that type of mindset & thinking - do you see it, didn't you tell her the other day that you don't have to compete with the OM? Her mentioning dating is trying to pull you in, continue to push her away, not in a violent, both hands in front of you type way but in a "you can chase me for a bit now because I'm done chasing you".

When she mentions dating again and she may very well do that, you tell her that you will be dating, you just don't think it will be with her ;-)

You're allowed to ruffle the feathers a bit, lord knows she's been doing a good job with you and look how it's affected your moods, emotions, thinking, etc.

Are you starting to see any of this? Hopefully you are.

How are you feeling today?
I was just recalling the stories that I read about in the "Another Divorce Busted" section as well as stories that I am aware of in my own family. I have a cousin, my sister, and Aunt & Uncle that all got back together after a separation. My Mom left my Dad after dragging it on for what seemed like forever. They didn't get back together, but three months after she left she decided she wanted him back. He had had enough.

Sometimes I think the phrase you don't know what you've got til it's gone is applicable.

I know I never appreciated my W as much as I have since she told me she wanted to go.
Another brazen hijack here..robx, I went to town answering your questions the other day and would love your input. It is a few pages back on my thread cuz it's been a few days.

Thanks!!!

Sorry tristan...
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 05:29 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: robx
I'd love to hear the rational thinking behind that statement that says physically separating and living separate lives is a good thing for a marriage: quite the opposite, people get used to living separately and without the other person and it can be very hard to reverse that once a person gets used to this.

I'll say it again, separation is a prelude to divorce: separate living equals separate thinking.


Why then are you so quick to suggest kicking out spouses having affairs as a way to save the marriage? I know you will have a good answer for this, but would like to read the rational.


The separation wasn't your idea was it Tristan?
Whose idea was it?
Who's running the show?
Who's pulling whose strings?

Currently she is.

Turning this around and telling her to move out because she can't make a decision about you or the OM just shows that you respect yourself too much to be anyone's second choice. And in reality, everyone: you, me and the milkman all have to be willing, ready & able to let go of the people that openly hurt us, disrespect us, don't value the relationship they're in with us or care about our feelings.

It shows that you are taking control of the situation where for the longest amount of time you haven't had any control whatsoever. This will generate respect, the amount still remains to be seen but the observation will be that Tristan isn't anyone's fool or second option and that he controls his life, no one makes decisions about your life except for you - you demonstrate this with your actions, with your confidence, with your body language, with your ability to let go of people who would hurt you in a horrible way.

When you turn this around and make it look like it's now your idea to separate, not theirs, it throws their thought process out of whack: "wait a minute, I thought this was my decision?! He wants it more than I do? I don't have him anymore? Something is messed up here, I didn't picture it happening this way...." Once you start to throw in doubts here & there, it starts them questioning their own ideas about everything.

There is so much to be said on this topic and I could go on & on.

Attraction may not be a choice but Love is a choice.
Love can't exist without respect.
Currently she doesn't respect you because you communicate indirectly that you don't respect yourself. She also controls this situation and to a large degree, she controls you: how you feel, how you react to what she says, what's happening to your family, etc. Women don't respect men that they control easily. Taking back control of your life shows that you respect yourself and that you won't allow other people to dictate the events of your life.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 05:33 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
When she mentions dating again and she may very well do that, you tell her that you will be dating, you just don't think it will be with her ;-)


I like that. But I doubt she will ask again after I said I didn't want to compete. She said this a couple of weeks ago.

Originally Posted By: robx
How are you feeling today?


OK. I find myself joking around a bit here and there. I haven't been able to do that for months. Its still hard, but getting a little easier. However, I am guessing that my mood will take another nosedive next week when she actually moves out.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 05:56 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: robx
When she mentions dating again and she may very well do that, you tell her that you will be dating, you just don't think it will be with her ;-)


I like that. But I doubt she will ask again after I said I didn't want to compete. She said this a couple of weeks ago.

Originally Posted By: robx
How are you feeling today?


OK. I find myself joking around a bit here and there. I haven't been able to do that for months. Its still hard, but getting a little easier. However, I am guessing that my mood will take another nosedive next week when she actually moves out.


You told her you didn't want to compete the other day and then recently she told you she wants to maybe date you when she moves in to her new place - you telling her you don't want to compete doesn't register yet fully with her, trust me she asked and she will mention it again - watch for it, it will happen.

As for your mood, PMA - positive mental attitude.
Whatever happens, Tristan will survive, Tristan will thrive, Tristan will be great.

Do what works, stop doing what doesn't work.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/02/09 06:05 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
You told her you didn't want to compete the other day and then recently she told you she wants to maybe date you when she moves in to her new place - you telling her you don't want to compete doesn't register yet fully with her, trust me she asked and she will mention it again - watch for it, it will happen.


Actually, she brought the dating thing before I told her I wouldn't compete. She has touched me in a playful way a couple of tims since I didn't hug her. But for the most part she has been distancing herself as well.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/03/09 02:19 AM
Journaling:

Wednesday Evening:
W called on trip home from out of town meeting and left the following message:
"Hey its me umm I'm on my way from X and ummm just wanted to talk. umm <pause> I will call you later or I will see you at home. umm my phone is about to die so um I don't know if it will be able stay on for too much longer. But anyways, I was listening to your CD and I was thinking of you. um take care, talk to you later, bye bye."

It did lift my spirits, it sounded like she was really missing me. When I got home, I went for a walk with the girls and stopped by the store. W arrived while we were out. There was a non-chalant greeting when I arrived. I ate some dinner with W. I mentioned that I was sorry I missed her call, but I was on a conference call (which was true). She said it was no big deal. We didn't say much more.

After dinner, I started watching movie with girls. W went up stairs and fell asleep in our, which is now my, bed for about an hour. When she came down, I asked if she was tired. She said that she had been getting vertigo.

We put the girls to bed and she made a dash for bed saying "Have a good night."

Strange. Anyway, I got my books today. I am going to start reading one tonight.
Quote:
I have already told her that I am not sure when I will be able to go to her new place, saying I needed to show my disapproval in some way.


Why would you say this? Do you tell her everything that you get for advice here also? "The guys/gals on the message board think I need to be more distant". There was this comment and the one about the hug yesterday that make it seem like you aren't actually upset, you are just following some script. Actually develop the backbone, don't just parrot what your IC says you should be doing. This seems really really wimpy, and that's unattractive.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/03/09 03:40 PM
Journaling:
Thursday morning:
D6 started kindergarten this morning. She woke up early, I woke up with her and helped get her lunch ready. W came up after lunch was made and said thank you. We were watching Talia pick out her clothes and my wife looks at me and says: "I know you can't give me a hug, but I am going to give you one and wraps her arms around me." She then follows D6 out of the room.

I sat there thinking that sounded very demeaning. After about a minute, I walked into the bathroom.
M: "It's not that I can't"
W: "I understand."
M: "It's that I won't."
W: "OK. I understand."
M: "What you are doing is very destructive to our family."
W: "Do we need to talk about this now. You are bursting my bubble. Lets just focus on the girls right now." - She was now agitated

I walk out and go downstairs for a while. When she came down, I acted as nothing happened. We both escort D6 to kindergarten (they asked parents to join children on first day). W didn't talk much during the event. We walked back and conversed a little, nothing big.

In general, I am feeling pretty good. I know this confidence stuff is coming slowly, but I think I am moving in the right direction. Thank you all for the criticism. I need it. It makes me a better man.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/03/09 04:03 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Thursday morning:
D6 started kindergarten this morning. She woke up early, I woke up with her and helped get her lunch ready. W came up after lunch was made and said thank you. We were watching Talia pick out her clothes and my wife looks at me and says: "I know you can't give me a hug, but I am going to give you one and wraps her arms around me." She then follows D6 out of the room.

I sat there thinking that sounded very demeaning. After about a minute, I walked into the bathroom.
M: "It's not that I can't"
W: "I understand."
M: "It's that I won't."
W: "OK. I understand."
M: "What you are doing is very destructive to our family."
W: "Do we need to talk about this now. You are bursting my bubble. Lets just focus on the girls right now." - She was now agitated

I walk out and go downstairs for a while. When she came down, I acted as nothing happened. We both escort D6 to kindergarten (they asked parents to join children on first day). W didn't talk much during the event. We walked back and conversed a little, nothing big.

In general, I am feeling pretty good. I know this confidence stuff is coming slowly, but I think I am moving in the right direction. Thank you all for the criticism. I need it. It makes me a better man.


Love that, you are "bursting her bubble",
it's a good thing it's just her,
things would really be a mess if your "bubble" was bursting ;-)

You communicated honestly without being hurtful or derogatory, what she is doing is hurtful & destructive to you & your family and you don't have to reward her with your attention and with acts of affection like hugs because that would be rewarding her for her bad behavior. Bust her on her bad behavior - what you're doing is wrong and it's destructive to our family.

You did good Tristan, thank you for sharing.

How do you feel today after what just happened?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/03/09 05:45 PM
Robx.
I can't believe you are thanking me for sharing. I can't begin to give you my appreciation for all your help.

Now onto "the bursting my bubble" comment. She says that I always burst her bubble when she is dreaming of how things could be. For example, when we would look at homes to buy, she would imagine how she would like to furnish it. If I would say something like "How would we pay for all that?"; she would reply with "Why are you always bursting my bubble!"

I am not exactly sure how she meant it in this context. I initially took it that she was simply upset. But maybe she was subconciously saying that I was bursting her "Dream World" with a little reality. Who knows, she has been a little odd lately. Saying that she is thinking of me one hour and then nearly pretending I don't exist a couple hours later.

After the incident, I felt good. Maybe a little perturbed, but not much. I was a little dissappointed of myself for not pushing her away and saying it when she actually hugged me, but I guess I am not that fast on my feet. I am coming to peace with the fact that this is all out of my control and she just needs to figure herself out.

Originally Posted By: tristan
Now onto "the bursting my bubble" comment. She says that I always burst her bubble when she is dreaming of how things could be. For example, when we would look at homes to buy, she would imagine how she would like to furnish it. If I would say something like "How would we pay for all that?"; she would reply with "Why are you always bursting my bubble!"

I am not exactly sure how she meant it in this context. I initially took it that she was simply upset. But maybe she was subconciously saying that I was bursting her "Dream World" with a little reality.


I think you did great, too. There's a phrase for it, you know: esprit d'escalier. Means, "staircase wit". All the wonderful perfect things you should have said that don't occur to you until the other person has left the building. Happens to us all.

Two different things going on here. My h. can be (engineer-like) a bit of a bubble burster, too. Confronted with a new idea, his natural instinct, honed from years of hard work, is to find the fail points. This is VERY IRRITATING to a person who is just dream-spinning or fantasizing idly, as in, "Wouldn't it be fun if????" If you do this a lot, you might wanna consider thinking before you speak. Best-case-scenario dreaming can be really enjoyable with your partner. Who doesn't like to dream with their loved one, even if they know the reality is unlikely?

In your case, I can understand if you have had to deal much with manic-phase grandiose dreaming where she actually tried to *execute*, as in by ludicrous spending, etc. But still.

That was your first "bubble burst" example. The *second*, what just happened, is entirely different. In this case, it sounds like she's "dreaming" of a family where nothing really changes except she has her own place and gets to do whatever she wants while you are still there with full husbandly support, friendliness, affection, etc ... One Big Happy Family. Well, that is a very unhealthy dream, 'cause it ain't gonna happen. Whatever life, whatever choices she's building on that are all truly false, because she assumes cooperation from you that will *not* be forthcoming. So the sooner you burst that kind of bubble, the better for everyone. Keep on doing what you're doing.
Quote:
In this case, it sounds like she's "dreaming" of a family where nothing really changes except she has her own place and gets to do whatever she wants while you are still there with full husbandly support, friendliness, affection, etc ... One Big Happy Family. Well, that is a very unhealthy dream, 'cause it ain't gonna happen. Whatever life, whatever choices she's building on that are all truly false, because she assumes cooperation from you that will *not* be forthcoming. So the sooner you burst that kind of bubble, the better for everyone. Keep on doing what you're doing.


Excellent point.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/03/09 06:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken

My h. can be (engineer-like) a bit of a bubble burster, too. Confronted with a new idea, his natural instinct, honed from years of hard work, is to find the fail points. This is VERY IRRITATING to a person who is just dream-spinning or fantasizing idly, as in, "Wouldn't it be fun if????" If you do this a lot, you might wanna consider thinking before you speak. Best-case-scenario dreaming can be really enjoyable with your partner. Who doesn't like to dream with their loved one, even if they know the reality is unlikely?


OK. I am an engineer and did the bubble-bursting way too much before. But I think I have piped it down quite a bit in the last year or so.
Good for you! Speaking for engineers' wives everywhere, thank you!

Of course, it's a give-and-take. It's helped me to understand where it's coming from: work-related habituation as opposed to deliberate desire to be a buzz-kill. Now, when he does it, I feel free to call him on it: "Quit bein' an engineer!!!!" wink A mutual sense of humor never hurts.
Quote:
When she mentions dating again and she may very well do that, you tell her that you will be dating, you just don't think it will be with her ;-)



I like this...I hope it happens again so you can say it. Actually, I'd probably add, "I will be dating, but I don't think it will be you. I'm looking for someone who is interested in more of a long-term commitment". :P

I'm glad you clarified that it wasn't that you couldn't hug, that you wouldn't hug. Keep working towards being stronger and getting out of the Mr Nice Guy mold.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/04/09 12:04 AM
Wife is at new place. I need to get girls stuff packed to go away this weekend. Now starts the hard part.

Whatever happens, I will survive, I will thrive, I will be great. God has a plan for me...
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/04/09 02:32 AM
Journaling:
Thursday night:
Alright, tonight has been emotionally draining. I am going down to parents tomorrow with girls. Girls know they are going down, but don't know mommy isn't going yet. I guess we are surprising them with that tomorrow. I told W that she needs to tell them. My mom doesn't know about the seperation yet, so I will tell her probably tomorrow as well.

W did not seem interested in conversing much at all. I did ask her if she learned anything today.
W: <after some thought> "I learned that I am weak."
M: "What do you mean?"
W: "I am very anxious."
M: "I read recently that anxiety comes from not understanding the underlying feeling."
W: <thinks for a bit, but doesn't say anything>

I wish I could say I feel good tonight, but I don't. But whatever happens, I will survive, I will thrive, I will be great...

God bless.
Posted By: bluerain Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/04/09 05:52 AM
Hey puppy, your fans are demanding an update on your thread! People are worried about you!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/04/09 02:20 PM
Journaling:
Friday Morning:

Last night was tough. Emotions were getting to me. I read some of "Hold on to Your N.U.T.s" and went to sleep.

This morning I was talking to W:
M: "Sleep well?"
W: "Not really. I woke up really early."
M: "Having dreams?"
W: "Yes. I was in this huge mansion with doors all over. I kept opening doors. One of those anxiety dreams. It was filled with antiques from 944. 944 was all over in the mansion. Then I was a mermaid that was tied up. Do you know how to play the numbers? I should play 944."
...
W: "How are you doing?"
M: <shrug shoulders> "OK"
W: "That's good."
...
M: "How do you feel about the move?"
W: "I'm scared. Its a big change. I will miss you. I know that. But I have gone this far... I need to do it. I want some time and space to think. I want some time to be with friends. Do some meditation. Get back to Yoga. I hope you will do the same. I don't look at this as the end. I look at it as a new phase, a new stage in my life."
...

I know I was not showing confidence this morning. I felt like jello on the inside. I know she sensed it.

On my way to work, I called a L that my dad had found through the grapevine. I wanted to know what my obligations were for child-support. Taking care of it, as Coach would say. I found that because I will have the children 50% of the time, it is very vague. But I also found that I have probably agreed to too much. I will need to renegotiate this with W. Although, I guess I really don't need to negotiate. I will just tell her what I believe is fair and pay it. The lawyer actually suggested I attempt to get her back into MC. He is a divorce lawyer that believes that divorce is a horrible solution to marriage problems (imagine that).
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/04/09 03:59 PM
Just got this e-mail:

Hi,

This is my itinerary for X. My next trip is in October. I
was wondering if you could help and then I will have the girls
for more time the following weeks.

Please let me know.
W

I would essentially get them 2 more nights than normal. What are the suggestions on handling this. My initial thought is to just take them, but is that being too "nice"?
Posted By: Orich Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/04/09 04:11 PM
Tough one. I would want my kids as much as possible, but I wouldn't want to look like I was going out of my way for her either. Personally, I would take them. Of course, if she adheres strictly to the amount of time agreed to, and wants to make up for it later, I guess what's the difference then.
Tough one.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/04/09 05:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Orich
Tough one. I would want my kids as much as possible, but I wouldn't want to look like I was going out of my way for her either. Personally, I would take them. Of course, if she adheres strictly to the amount of time agreed to, and wants to make up for it later, I guess what's the difference then.
Tough one.


Easy one... take them.
You're a dad and you're going to show to your kids that you're a great dad and that will never stop regardless if you're married, separated, divorced or whatever with your wife.

With all the change that your wife is introducing to "find her way", you will be the rock for your kids, the protector, provider of security, greatest dad on the planet, etc. Taking them only makes you look good, especially to your kids.

You aren't doing anything for your wife, this is about your kids, you'll always be there for them.

Now when she wants to go out on a date with the OM and asks if you want to watch the kids, that's when you put up the boundary and say that's your busy and you'll watch them when you have them.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/04/09 05:18 PM
Thanks Robx. I had already sent the e-mail saying no problem. I may get the hang of this yet.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Just got this e-mail:

Hi,

This is my itinerary for X. My next trip is in October. I
was wondering if you could help and then I will have the girls
for more time the following weeks.

Please let me know.
W

I would essentially get them 2 more nights than normal. What are the suggestions on handling this. My initial thought is to just take them, but is that being too "nice"?

This is one of the toughest ones I've come up against. Absolutely hate the idea of enabling. In the long run though, I, my kids and W will look back on this situation and know who was there for them.

Well, as I read above you already figured it out. Next time I'll read before responding smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/04/09 05:37 PM
Originally Posted By: RedSoxFan

Well, as I read above you already figured it out. Next time I'll read before responding smile


No problem. I like hearing what every has to say, even if I have already made the decission.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/04/09 09:18 PM
Journaling:
Friday afternoon:
Not feeling great. I will be telling mom that we are seperating tonight. W has now seemed to completely disconnect. We will be telling girls on Tuesday evening. W stays first night in other place on Wednesday.

I will do my best to have a good weekend. I think it will be a good time to build a better relationship with my dad. We currently have that typical father-son relationship. We will go to the normal guy events together and talk about superficial stuff. I don't blame him for that relationship, I always kept him at arms length. I was the loner. However, I may ask for a little more support this weekend. It will be interesting to see how he responds.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/05/09 04:04 PM
Journaling:
Saturday Morning:
I need to make a quick post. I am actually keeping myself busy. Before leaving for parents last night, I told W that I was dissappointed in what was happening.
W: "What are my options? Remain depressed for the rest of my life. Is that what you want?"
M: <shrug shoulders> "Just telling you how I feel about this."
W: <starts to cry but stops when D5 walks in>

Some background: W knows that I have been on a forum about our marriage, but doesn't know where it is. Early on, in one of our conversations when she was questioning my motives, I said you can read everything that I wrote if you want. She then said she didn't need to do that.

So anyway, W calls me when I am almost to my parents home last night. She says she is having a "hard time" and couldn't finish packing. She wonders if she can read what I wrote. I nearly say yes, but then say "I would rather not, I need the confidentiality". She then gets very short, saying she was being impulsive, and then quickly gets off the phone.

My parents now know of the seperation. I have been keeping myself busy and feeling OK.
Well, you had told her she could read it. She wants to know what you are thinking. Any chance you could offer to answer any questions she has of you? Or ask her what specifically she would like to know?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/06/09 12:04 AM
I have started reading "No more Mr Nice Guy." Robx, I have nominated you to be one of my "Safe Male Friends" I am assuming you are male. If not, you put on one hell of a show. So, I am suppose to say what from my childhood helped in giving me the "Nice Guy Syndrome", which I am not yet convinced I have.

Really, my childhood was pretty normal. I actually had a pretty good childhood. But my parents did live a lot of their lives through us children. They were always bragging about our accomplishments to family or friends. It was something I really hated. Not sure what that would have to do with my current sitch, but the book said to share it with you.
Posted By: GoBison Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/06/09 12:14 AM
Tristan go back and read Robx's post when he first came on the board. He explained himself really well and gives a good description of a nice guy. The way he described himself explains me a lot. And it is totally a different Robx
Originally Posted By: tristan
I have started reading "No more Mr Nice Guy." Robx, I have nominated you to be one of my "Safe Male Friends" I am assuming you are male. If not, you put on one hell of a show. So, I am suppose to say what from my childhood helped in giving me the "Nice Guy Syndrome", which I am not yet convinced I have.

Really, my childhood was pretty normal. I actually had a pretty good childhood. But my parents did live a lot of their lives through us children. They were always bragging about our accomplishments to family or friends. It was something I really hated. Not sure what that would have to do with my current sitch, but the book said to share it with you.


Just thinking out loud here. Could it be that you got used to getting praise for performing well and for someone else's pleasure, vicarious ego boost and amusement? That you learned to stuff it and do what made you look like a great kid worth bragging about rather than what you perhaps genuinely wanted to do or be?

I see a correlation.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/06/09 02:04 AM
Journaling:
Saturday Night:
W left a message wanting me to say goodnight to the girls for her and tell them that she loves them. She also let me know that she moved most of her stuff "because she already had people coming over." The message was very cold.

This message hit me hard. I went out and had to take a few moments.

Is it normal for WAS to be so back and forth from one night to the next? Some nights (like tonight) I wonder if there is any hope for us. But last night she told me that she misses me next to her in bed. What is going on?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/07/09 12:49 AM
Journaling:
Sunday evening:
Spent the day keeping myself busy. We (D6, D3, & I) started the day off by going to church. We left from there to meet parents at the fair. My grandfather owns some horses, so we went to go see a few of them run. Plus, the girls really enjoy the other stuff that goes on at a fair. We came home and had a little cookout with the parents; hot dogs and smores.

I tried talking with dad a little bit about what I am going through. He was OK talking about legal stuff, but he shut down when I traversed into conversation about the relationship. Doesn't look like I will be able to go there in the future with him. So I will continue to spill my guts on this forum if you all don't mind ;-)

W hasn't called today. I am not contacting her either. This sucks, but I think I am getting a little better at it.
That sounds like a fantastic day, Tristan.

As far as her being all over the place .... you could assume she's trying to mess with you, or you could assume SHE has no clue what will make her happy, none at all, and is just giving voice to her emotions from moment to moment. Doesn't really make any difference, since you can't know for sure either way.

Focus on your plans for yourself and your beautiful daughters. You are learning and growing a lot.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/07/09 01:09 PM
Thank you Ketricken,

I am feeling better, but I can't help but think that this silence is killing our M. I know, there wasn't much of one before I put up these boundaries. However, our communication has dissipated to almost nothing. I know there is nothing more that I can do than to stay disciplined and follow the course of working on me. So I am reading books, staying busy, and trying to keep a PMA. One day at a time, another one starts now.

By the way @Kettricken, I looked for your thread and didn't find one. Do you have one on these boards? Thanks. T.
I don't, at the moment. I started out in SSM when my marriage hit a real rough patch, but things are immeasurably better now. I read some books and got interested in some marriage/relationship theory, so I still hang around and comment where I have something to say.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/07/09 05:33 PM
Well thank you all for spending your time to help others. I do not know what I would do without this site. I hope to be good enough at this sometime in the future to be able to give advice myself.
Originally Posted By: Orich
Don't get me started on the loss of family values. My 75 year old FIL said to me the other day about his own daughter, "I don't understand her, why won't she put more effort into this. It is way too easy for people to just divorce nowadays, I think that it has become too much of an easy, lazy way out."
Smart man.


ORICH, (Sorry for the slight hijack Tristan), aren't you guys going to Retrovaille soon? I'm crossing my fingers that you still are and that your wife's head and heart will be open to it. Let THE COUPLES there tell their stories, you don't have to say a thing to pressure her to want to work on the M. Please don't do that.
\
The stories and program will take care of that. No BS about how great divorce is... She'll need a whole lot of resistance in her to shut it ALL out...but that means that YOU let them do their thing and just get what you can out of it. See what happens.
j-
And Tristan, your plan on detaching has backslides for one of 3 reasons: 1) fear/weakness at setting boundaries and enforcing them, 2) worry that your strategy is wrong, or 3) a combination of the first 2...

As for #1, no matter what happens, getting past the fear/weakness is ALL up to you and no matter what happens, YOU have to do it...

As for #2, check results, A lot of what Puppy and Robx said seems to be helping you and maybe her...all you know is that what you did in the past was not "manning up with the balls, etc" and did not work, AND you have no control over your w anyhow....all you control is you.

Give the strategy a real test. As for when she discovers her "authentic" self....
tired um, she may just come to decide she's a MOTHER and wants to do what's best for her kids AND that she still is attracted to YOU and that she has a motive for working on the m.....or not.

But if her so called authentic self, turns out to be a selfish, irresponsible
B%$#& who puts her "Needs du jour" ahead of all others, including her own flesh and blood, then I say "SEE YA!!"

TODAY you sound like a great guy. Your past with your w was different though and you made some crappy choices that hurt the M, so in the future, avoid those errors and don't put all the blame on the past issues on HER. Today, it's on her. Yesterday...you learned from, right?

Enough said,
Good luck,
J
Posted By: Orich Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/07/09 11:23 PM
25, yeah that's me. Next weekend, sept. 11. I haven't been doing a good job detaching, ask almost anyone here, and I an probably putting too much hope into the weekend. But in reality, I just want her to begin to open a little bit and give us a chance to reconnect because lately it has been very quiet around here and I believe w is slowly distancing herself. She has removed me from her facebook lost and stopped wearing her rings. But as I said, I am not expecting a miracle, but I am hoping for the beginning of communication between us.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/08/09 08:52 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
I have started reading "No more Mr Nice Guy." Robx, I have nominated you to be one of my "Safe Male Friends" I am assuming you are male. If not, you put on one hell of a show. So, I am suppose to say what from my childhood helped in giving me the "Nice Guy Syndrome", which I am not yet convinced I have.

Really, my childhood was pretty normal. I actually had a pretty good childhood. But my parents did live a lot of their lives through us children. They were always bragging about our accomplishments to family or friends. It was something I really hated. Not sure what that would have to do with my current sitch, but the book said to share it with you.


LOL!
Yes I am male,
No I won't be taking pictures of the undercarriage and emailing them to you for your personal verification process - just take my word for it LOL!

As for being a safe male friend,
safe is very subjective ;-)

No more Mr.Nice Guy is a good book, read it.

One more piece of advice,
every interaction you have with her, you seem to expect that your current situation should just 180 and you should have solved this by now and unfortunately that isn't the case. It took alot of time to get you into this situation, it's going to take you some time to turn it around if that is your eventual destiny in all of this.

Remember you can't control her or her actions or her responses or her reactions. When she says something and she appears cold, distance, sad, angry - that's all her and you can't do anything to change that or control that.

I remember reading your response about her leaving a voicemail about people coming over and it being "cold", that may suck but it is what it is, let it be.

Control how you are, that's all you can do, be a great father, you definitely have control over that.

Remember what we have mentioned about "dating" or "social interactions", seriously the sooner the better if you want to get her thought process changing in a way that shows any of this as her loss.

You will be ok, regardless of how any of this pans out, that much I'm sure of.

How are you feeling today Tristan?
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/08/09 09:10 PM
in my own situation, I can't describe to you how mean & cruel my wife behaved towards me, it was a heartbreaker and I had no one to tell me a few years ago that it would eventually get better.

We're not reconciled yet, mainly because of the fact that I want to see more changes from her before I trust her to have a relationship with her. I don't want what we had and I used to be the one that begged to have things "just like we used to have" and that is wrong.

There will come a time, when your education in this whole situation has come to a point where you will just get it. All of the arguments and points I made on my wife, all the time I spent begging & pleading and reasoning,etc. I look back on that guy I was that was walking around sad, depressed, hanging off every word my wife said towards, took the abusive treatment, the crazy rationalizations for her behavior, etc. and now I'm not that guy anymore and I never will be. Now I'm the one hearing the arguments from her like "... but I love you" (hmmm.. never heard that before), "how about how this is affecting the children" (didn't you tell me that was just me using a guilt trip on you when I said this?), "what can I do to show you I love you?" (stop pressuring me, I'm not sure I feel the same way anymore),"is it ok if I call you today?" (wow before you never wanted to hear from me ever, do you remember how mean you were to me?), "I was just wondering if we could talk about us?" (hmmm... I remember there was no "us" and you were glad to be free).

At one point you will become the WAS in all of this and she will be the LBS, the dynamic will switch over at one point provided you db and grow personally and learn more about yourself than you previously thought was possible.

I have rec'd 3 emails and 6 phone calls from my wife today (so far...), all of them asking me what i'm doing, how I am, that she's thinking of me, looking at some old photos of me & the kids when we were "all together and having fun" and "what are your plans this weekend, maybe we could do something?", "do you want to go out for some coffee tonight, I could get my parents to watch the kids..."

If you had asked me almost 2 years when she beat my sorry ass to a pulp and made me feel lower than the dirt on the ground and left me to have a great single life if any of this was possible, I would have said no and only a miracle could produce these results.

The only miracle was me finally standing up for myself, believing in my own personal value, respecting myself, setting boundaries with how people can treat me and learning that life is truly a gift and that you should live your life and enjoy every day of it - it's what you need to do to live an authentic life and what you need to do to show your kids how to enjoy life, you can't just tell them, you have to do it for real in your own life, that's how they learn and that's how you know you've been successful as a parent.

2 years ago I would never have considered dating either but I now know that it improved my confidence, along with everything else I was doing (personal counselling, going to the gym, losing weight, building muscle, eating right, getting enough sleep, shopping for myself, new clothes, new shoes, new style, hanging out with friends, making new friends, new me!)

It will be a personal choice for you in the end to actually go through with this, no one is asking you to sleep with another woman or get a new girlfriend or get married.

Take into account how you feel that your wife is having a relationship with another man, you still want her, if anything you may have even felt that you want her even more - we all want what we can't have and we also take for granted what we have and only realize it's true value when we lose it. How will your wife feel that way about you if you communicate you will always be there waiting for her till she gets her head screwed on right?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/08/09 09:19 PM
Journaling:
Monday:
Helped dad build a roof for his labradors' pen in the morning. Girl's spent the time playing with the dogs. It was something to keep my mind off my situation. After lunch, we took the girls over to the local farm so D5 could ride a horse. This is what she looks forward to everytime she goes to grandpa's house. This was the first time she got the horse up to a trot though. It scared her at first, but she got the hang of it pretty quickly. Went home and had some cake and icecream before leaving.

Noticed a text from w: "when r u going to be home. how r the girls."

I texted back "Leaving now. We had a good weekend. Thank you."

As you can imagine, it was an emotional departure for my parents. Girls were good for the 4 hour drive home. W was happy to see girls when we arrived, but distant to me. After we had been home for about 15 minutes:
W: "Why didn't you call back?"
M: "You mean on Saturday?"
W: "Yes."
M: "You didn't ask me too."
W: "I said I was calling to ask how the girls were. That means I want you to call back."
M: "Sorry. I misunderstood."

After putting the girls to bed, I asked W to talk in our room. I needed to talk to her about what she was going to say to the girls. We went over it, it felt so horrible to be going over this stuff. After this conversation, I began to backslide:

M: "What has happened? We don't communicate."
W: "You have changed."
M: "Its difficult. I need to put up these boundaries, but I don't want us to block each other out completely. We need to communicate."
...
M: "Right now, I need to focus on the girls. They need a strong father."
W: "I am glad to hear that, because I plan on being the best mother I can be."
M: "You have a wierd way of showing it."
W: "What is that suppose to mean? You don't think I am a good mother?"
M: "I didn't say that."
W: "For me to be a good mother, I need to be strong."
...
M: "You make moving out look so easy."
W: "Just because I don't cry doesn't mean I am not hurting. This is very hard for me."

The rest of the conversation is blurry, but at some point I held out my hand. She grabbed it, squeezed, and started sobbing.
W: "I remember one night when D5 was crying in her crib and you told me to let her go for another 15 minutes. I understood fifty minutes and called you a horrible horrible person. That made you very upset. I cried all the way too work that next morning, I felt so bad. I told OM (this is before the A) how bad I felt and he took your side. He said that you sometimes have to let babies cry. You were my life. When people would ask why I was in this country, I would say it was because I met you. Now when ever I start to feel that way, I think of something else and get angry. I have so much resentment. I don't blame you for that, I blame myself. I should have told you sooner."
...
W: "I want to feel again."
...
W: "I texted X (someone that was going to help her move Saturday) at 1 AM on Saturday and told her that I was not going to move. I ended up moving anyway, I had already paid the kids to help move me."
...
M: "Thank you for sharing."
W: "Thank you for listening."

She was still crying, I had tears in my eyes. I gave her a hug. I know it crossed the boundary. As I said, I was backsliding.

Tuesday:
The backsliding continued. I kissed W this morning. Not extremely passionate, but not a peck either.
M: <dissappointed with self> "I shouldn't have done that."
W: "No. Thank you. I havn't felt like that in so long."
<pause>
W: "I hope you didn't do that out of pitty."
M: "No. I feel for you. I know you are hurting and am concerned, but it isn't pity."
W: <sobbing> "I don't know why I am doing this, I love you so much."
...
M: "You are a good woman."
W: "No. I am a piece of sh--. I can't stand myself."
M: "Don't think that. If you think it, you will become it."

D3 comes in. I finish getting girls ready and take them to daycare.

Before leaving for work, we touch.
W: "You are so deep in my heart."
M: "Why do expend so much energy supressing it?"
<silence>

So I talked to IC today. Obviously, he said that I had crossed way too many personal boundaries in the last 24 hours. He asked: "What if you are still doing the same thing 1 year from now? How good will that be for you? For her? For the girls?" I know I fell apart. And I have no excuses.

However, the IC was curious about the "I don't know why I am doing this, I love you so much." comment. He says that is an unusual comment in situations like this. He said that she is likely "emotionally confused". I am not sure if I understand exactly what that is. He said that emotions are likely flooding her to the point that she is unable to make sense of them.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/08/09 09:27 PM
Robx, Puppy, Ketricken - About the previous post, I am sorry. I don't only feel like I let myself down. I let you all down as well. I know you have spent a lot of time on me and today I feel like I wasted your advice. Its not wasted, I know I just need to turn myself around (again).

Robx - I told the IC that I was reading "No More Mr. Niceguy." and he said that it was a reasonable book for me.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/08/09 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
How are you feeling today Tristan?


Right now, I am at a strange calm. I am going home to accompany W in telling girls about seperation. I should be anxious, but am not. I am sure I will be there when I sit down with them.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/08/09 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan

... W was happy to see girls when we arrived, but distant to me. After we had been home for about 15 minutes:
W: "Why didn't you call back?"
M: "You mean on Saturday?"
W: "Yes."
M: "You didn't ask me too."
W: "I said I was calling to ask how the girls were. That means I want you to call back."
M: "Sorry. I misunderstood."



Hand slapping time.

She said she was calling to ask how the girls were and that means she wanted you to call her back?

Didn't you just tell her that she didn't ask you too?

And then you apologized to her for not understanding?!

Why?!

What did you do wrong?!

If she wants you to call her back, she will communicate that to you, she will be clear about this and any other communication in the future because you are not a mind reader concerning her or anyone else.

Make that clear to her the next time you speak to her.
You tell her "... I was thinking about our conversation where you didn't ask me to call you back but I was somehow supposed to read between the lines that it was something you wanted me to do - I don't read minds, next time if YOU need something from me, just say it in plain english, I won't apologize for not reading your mind and knowing what your exact intentions were."

Don't be angry, you act calm, assertive and make eye contact with her the whole time.

You apologize way too much, she's having an affair, I don't see her apologizing about it every time she sees you!

Read the books!
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/08/09 09:37 PM
you say she's acting cold, distant and removed,
her behavior in this area isn't going to improve, it will likely get worse as she progresses with this affair and that's part of the WAS mentality, get used to it, expect it and respond calmly & assertively each time - remember, boundaries, they're in place, enforce them, don't let her walk all over you - these are all tests see how much she can push you, she's learning she can push you quite a bit and then make you apologize on top of that.

I'm not liking that, I hope you understand where I'm coming from how you communicate wimpy, wussy behavior like that.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 03:31 AM
Journaling:
Tuesday Evening:
Arrive home from work in a strange calm. My W plans to tell the girls that we are seperating that night. I greet D6 and MIL as I walk in, D3 & W are upstairs. I walk up and greet them as well, D6 follows me up. The 4 of us play on the bed in what is now my bedroom. From the looks of it, we are as happy as a family can be.

A few hours later, W comes to me and asks if we can talk. We go over what is going to be said. I tell her that I will say as little as possible, but not be combative. She is OK with that. I then ask her to enumerate the reasons that she is leaving, it is somewhat confusing to me. I think it is confusing to her as well. She admits that EA has something to do with it, but it is not the only reason. She says she has a need to break free and be independent, to prove it to herself. She says that our relationship is not the same as it was.
M: "When we kissed this morning. You said you loved me. How long did that feeling last?"
W: "Through the afternoon."
M: "Is that when you called OM?"
W: "No. He called me. He asked if he could stop by and see me. I told him I couldn't, I had a lot of work to do. Later, he stopped by with salads anyway. We ate in silence, I was not good company. He asked what I was thinking. I told him I was thinking about you and the girls. He told me he understood, fixed something on my computer and left."

During the conversation, she promises that she will not date. She says that if she decides to date, she will seek a divorce first.

W took MIL to her new place while I got the girls ready for bed. She was going to tell them when she got back. We read a few stories. When D6 said she was tired and ready to go to bed. W began.
W: "D6 come here, I have something to tell you."
D6: "Yes."
W: "You know how your friends X and Ys' parents live in different houses."
D6: "Yes."
W: "Well mommy and daddy are going to be living in different houses. I am going to take you tomorrow to mommy's new house."
D6: "You mean I am going to have 2 rooms? Like friend X."
W: "Yes."
D6: "Yeah!" - D3 starts cheering with D6

Shock comes across both our faces. D6 starts talking about what stuff she is going to take to the new place. I am in complete disbelief on how this turned out.

D6: "Daddy, are you mad?"
M: "No. I'm not mad. Let's say our prayers"
...

W takes D3 to bed while I finish with D6. After putting D6 to bed, I go to lie down and process things. I am upset at myself for being initially dissappointed that the girls were not upset about the seperation. I think I should be happy that the girls took it so well; am I a bad person for being dissappointed? Even D6 saw it on my face.

W walks in the room. I motion to welcome her next to me on the bed. She lies down next to me.
W: "What are you thinking."
M: "I am processing why I was initially dissappointed in D6's reaction. Am I selfish for thinking that way?"
W: "No. A selfish person would have told her not to be excited that she should be upset. You did not do that. I was shocked by her reaction. But they are just kids, they don't understand."
...
M: "I have been struggling with where to put my boundaries. I argued a little with Bill (IC) today. I told him that I feel I am pushing you right into OM arms by being so distant. He told me that maybe I am. But since I am his primary client, he needs to tell me how to protect myself. And to do that, I need those strict boundaries."
W: "I have not liked the person you've become the past couple of weeks."
...

I sit up, turn to face her, straddling her waist with my arm and look into her eyes.
W: "Would you like me to go. I don't want to confuse those boundaries."
M: "I'm fine. Go if you like."

We sit in silence for several seconds, staring into each others eyes. I kiss her, she returns the kiss. I will spare the details, but this continues into the early morning. It was one of those nights to remember. If it was the last night of us being together, it was a wonderful one.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 04:26 AM
After last night, I went and reread Robx's entire thread. I know what I did went against everything I am suppose to do. However, I do not regret it. It was not cheap and it wasn't without feeling. Like I said, if I had to pick the way our last night together would be; it would be very close to the way it went last night.

My W struggles with her emotions. She is on mood stabilizers for a reason. I truly do believe this confuses her. It is what all the counselers and psychs say. They all believe this confusion has very little to do with me or OM. They say these are her issues of hers that only she can sort out. What if they are right? Would removing all emotional support help her heal?

Robx, she is different from your W. No, she is not treating me well. But she does not throw temper-tantrums. She does not yell. She does not insult. I look at her and see someone that is addicted to an EA complicated with bipolar tendencies. I am not excusing her behavior, I am just trying to understand what it would be like to walk a mile in her shoes.

Robx, I admire you for the way you turned your life around; it is an inspiration to me. I hope to get to where you are. I need to repect myself more. I need to be more centered on myself and more confident. I need to detach and not try to control things over which I have no power.

Last night, I breached boundaries to love my W. Last night, my W loved only me. Yes, that probably changed today. But for the moment we were connected. It is a moment that she told me she will cherish. Is that bad for DB'ing? Probably, but what is done is done.

I am rambling. It is late. And I still need to journal today.
Posted By: Sara Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 04:49 AM
Tristan, you are loving your wife in the only way you know how. What more can any woman ask of her husband? Don't worry about what other people think. It is your life and you have to live it.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 04:51 AM
Journaling:
Wednesday (Day 1 of Seperation):
Neither W or I felt like getting out of bed. It may very well be the last time we spend in bed together. But D6 is in kindergarten now and we must stick to a schedule. We get the kids up ready and out the door.

We had a short conversation after kids were out the door.
W: "So are you wondering what to do with last night?"
M: "It was a great night."
W: "It was wonderful. I am going to cherish it."
M: "After that, it is hard for me to believe you have feelings for someone else."
W: "Right now, I don't. I think it is very possible that we will be together again."
...

When we left it was a simple "Have a nice day." W started to cry when she left. I had to hold back tears myself. That was the last I saw or heard from her today. I noticed she finished taking the rest of her stuff which included a framed wedding photo that was sitting on our dresser.

This evening, I entered an empty house, went for an 8 mile run, ate some dinner and journaled my last 2 days. Ironically, I feel pretty good.
Posted By: Deep Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 05:23 AM
That's great to hear Tristan.

You know, a lot of the guys here give great advice, but each sitch is unique. I've felt that the DB approach is such a tenuous and difficult line to walk.

For myself, although I did not know of the books or the techniques back then, I realised that I did use some of the techniques. A lot of the GAL, and 180-ing did induce changes in my W, good changes. But I also broke a lot of the rules, and sometimes I think if I didn't or strictly went by the book, we might not have progressed in the same way.

As my W told me later, if she had felt I had completely cut her off, cut off support for her, and not loved her, she would have walked, with or without OM. Of course, one has to take these things with a pinch of salt, the swings in WAW to undecided WAW, to W again involves wield swings in logic, thinking, emotions, perspectives etc.

Hope you go on feeling good.
Originally Posted By: tristan
After last night, I went and reread Robx's entire thread. I know what I did went against everything I am suppose to do. However, I do not regret it. It was not cheap and it wasn't without feeling. Like I said, if I had to pick the way our last night together would be; it would be very close to the way it went last night.


Tristan,

I think that's perfectly fine, if that -- your last nite together -- was the only time you tried this tack. The problem I think Robx (or me, or Gucci, or others) have with this supplicating style is that, over the long haul, IT DOESN'T WORK in re-attracting a wayward spouse.

It's good for generating short-term sympathy, and for soothing yourself, but it's not going to re-ignite the marital flames of passion and respect.

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 02:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Deep
Hope you go on feeling good.


Thanks Deep. In times like these, feeling good is a relative term. I just know I am in a better space than I was a couple of weeks ago.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 02:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: tristan
After last night, I went and reread Robx's entire thread. I know what I did went against everything I am suppose to do. However, I do not regret it. It was not cheap and it wasn't without feeling. Like I said, if I had to pick the way our last night together would be; it would be very close to the way it went last night.


Tristan,

I think that's perfectly fine, if that -- your last nite together -- was the only time you tried this tack. The problem I think Robx (or me, or Gucci, or others) have with this supplicating style is that, over the long haul, IT DOESN'T WORK in re-attracting a wayward spouse.

It's good for generating short-term sympathy, and for soothing yourself, but it's not going to re-ignite the marital flames of passion and respect.

Puppy


Agreed. I am just trying to find a balance. I need to understand and support her in trying times while at the same time demonstrate that I am a man with value and deserves respect. It seems that these 2 things are in conflict and it is hard to work on both simultaneously. Is it possible?
Yes.

However, if you focus on the former, it's near impossible to get the latter. However, if you focus on the latter, paradoxically, you'll likely get the former.

Women. Go figure!! crazy

Puppy
I would also urge you to make the following distinctions:

1. Focus on "compassion" toward her, and not "support". She does not deserve your support when she is acting wayward.

2. Focus, not on "How will she react if I do or say thus-and-such? Will she be angry? How will her reaction make ME feel?", and instead strive for "What is THE RIGHT THING TO DO in this situation? What is the thing that God Himself would have me do, if He were standing right in front of me?"

It's a VERY small step between "support" and "enabling" when the behavior you're supporting isn't appropriate for a married woman.

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 02:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
I would also urge you to make the following distinctions:

1. Focus on "compassion" toward her, and not "support". She does not deserve your support when she is acting wayward.

2. Focus, not on "How will she react if I do or say thus-and-such? Will she be angry? How will her reaction make ME feel?", and instead strive for "What is THE RIGHT THING TO DO in this situation? What is the thing that God Himself would have me do, if He were standing right in front of me?"

It's a VERY small step between "support" and "enabling" when the behavior you're supporting isn't appropriate for a married woman.

Puppy


Thank you. That helps me put it in perspective. I like your idea on focusing on compassion instead of support.
Tris, I can only imagine how it must have made you feel .... but isn't it better that your girls didn't freak out? It doesn't mean they want to be with you less ... they just don't understand all the implications at their ages. I'm sure there are tears in the future, but I'm sure you'll handle those when you get there; better to not have to deal with their pain right now when you're still trying to balance your own emotions, yes?

Anyhow, there is no "one size fits all" with this stuff, as others have said. I would like to heartily second what Puppy recommends above, especially as respects compassion vs. support/enabling.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 03:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Tris, I can only imagine how it must have made you feel .... but isn't it better that your girls didn't freak out? It doesn't mean they want to be with you less ... they just don't understand all the implications at their ages. I'm sure there are tears in the future, but I'm sure you'll handle those when you get there; better to not have to deal with their pain right now when you're still trying to balance your own emotions, yes?


I completely agree. It upset me that I felt the way I did. But they are just emotions; I can't control them. I can only control how I react to them.
Aw, shucks, Dad, you wouldn't be human if you hadn't felt the knife going in at that moment, given the circumstances. You're doing fine.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 06:35 PM
I think I hit a nerve. I didn't mean too. Can someone help me figure this out. I think I am going to just let this one go.

E-mail 1
-------------------------------------------
Hi,

I just wanted to give you an update… The girls are doing well. Went to Target and got some groceries and a new toy for each girl. It was kind of hard to put them to bed since I don’t have a radio for D5 and it was warm. They liked their room but I could see that D5 was a little different. Tried talking to her but she was playing with her new doll and stated that she just wanted to try her new bed. D3 had an episode last night, was crying and finished her night with me. This morning was calling for you… didn’t want to go to school and stayed with my Mom. Took D5 to school and she was happy like nothing had changed. I am still in shock about how she is taking this…

I hope you are ok.

I hope it is ok for me to give you updates once in a while. I want you to know how the girls are doing. I hope you could do the same when they are with you.

Take care,
W

------------------------------------------------------

My reply: (includes 2 pictures of girls)
------------------------------------------------------
Hola,

I just wanted to give you an update… The girls are doing well.
Thank you. I did miss them last night. I am sure they loved their rooms, you have a knack for decorating.

Tried talking to her but she was playing with her new doll and stated that she just wanted to try her new bed.
You thought you could compete for D5’s attention with a new doll, new room, new bed? I know you know better ;-)

D3 had an episode last night, was crying and finished her night with me. … didn’t want to go to school and stayed with my Mom.
Good to hear that she hasn’t changed ;-)

This morning was calling for you
Touches my heart. Daddy’s little girl.

I hope it is ok for me to give you updates once in a while. I want you to know how the girls are doing. I hope you could do the same when they are with you.
Please do send updates. I enjoy them very much. I will send them as well. But please just ask when you want to know and be assertive about it. I can’t read your mind on when you want things. I am learning that part of what got us here is that neither of us was assertive enough in explaining what we wanted when we wanted it.

I hope you are ok.
I am fine. Thank you. Finding ways to keep myself busy. I would like to take D5 to soccer on Saturday Morning if possible. I would need to pick her up around 8:30. I can take D3 too, she has as much fun as D5 (probably more). I will have them back before 11:00. Hope all is well for you as well.

Gracias,
Tristan

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Reply from W:
--------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the pictures… we have two beautiful pumpkins…

Ok, “be assertive”??? What does that really mean? I am just asking for you to tell me how they are doing. Do you mean that I should call you or e-mail if I want to know how they are doing??? You will not do it unless I asked? In addition, “reading my mind”???? You don’t need to “read my mind”…we just needed to be connected to each other to know what we were feeling, that brings honesty and open communication, something that we were having problems doing …. I know I was not “assertive”
( hate the word and prefer to use open or clear) with you before because I was holding my feelings with the hope that things get better… and you were just not getting it. You were too focus on yourself….I don’t know what you are reading or who you are talking to but this message does not sound like you.

Please be you. Don’t try to change that much.

Regarding Saturday, it is ok. I know they will have fun. You are a great Dad!
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 07:26 PM
You puked all over your shoes.

"Wife, got the update. I always want to be kept in the loop about my girls. I will monitor their emotional well-being. I appreciate your help regarding them in this matter."
"I will pick the girls up on Saturday morning for soccer at 8:30 and will bring them back at 11:00."

no winking, no fixing, no trying to be funny, no pics, no gracias
This will not help. Looks like you are kissing her butt right after she moved out of your home and took your girls.

Do you have a plan for who pays for what?
A visitation schedule?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 07:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
You puked all over your shoes.

"Wife, got the update. I always want to be kept in the loop about my girls. I will monitor their emotional well-being. I appreciate your help regarding them in this matter."
"I will pick the girls up on Saturday morning for soccer at 8:30 and will bring them back at 11:00."

no winking, no fixing, no trying to be funny, no pics, no gracias
This will not help. Looks like you are kissing her butt right after she moved out of your home and took your girls.

Do you have a plan for who pays for what?
A visitation schedule?


Ouch. Thanks coach, I always appreciate your advice. Yes, we do have a plan for who pays for what and a schedule for the girls. I talked briefly to a lawyer and it seems that I am paying for about what I would if it were legal child-support. We are sharing the girl's time 50/50 for the time being (which complicates the child-support issue).
Originally Posted By: Coach
You puked all over your shoes.

"Wife, got the update. I always want to be kept in the loop about my girls. I will monitor their emotional well-being. I appreciate your help regarding them in this matter."
"I will pick the girls up on Saturday morning for soccer at 8:30 and will bring them back at 11:00."

no winking, no fixing, no trying to be funny, no pics, no gracias
This will not help. Looks like you are kissing her butt right after she moved out of your home and took your girls.

Do you have a plan for who pays for what?
A visitation schedule?




Apologize for the scatological piling-on, but I agree with Coach. sick sick laugh

It's not your job to diffuse HER tension, and make her more comfortable with her bad choices. To be even MORE blunt, what if that is God-placed "conscience" making her uncomfortable?? Who are you to soften it???

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/10/09 08:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Apologize for the scatological piling-on, but I agree with Coach. sick sick laugh



Please pile on. I am here to learn.
Originally Posted By: Sara
Tristan, you are loving your wife in the only way you know how. What more can any woman ask of her husband? Don't worry about what other people think. It is your life and you have to live it.


Wow, well said. And you know, while there is some great advice here, your wife DOES have mental health issues. Depite that, she's not actually mean to you. It IS confusing to me too. Hard to advise. But this just occurred to me to ask you, Hypothetically....what would you do if a doctor said, "we found a pituitary tumor here on the CAT Scan and it affects her mood and judgment..."?? What would you do if your wife said "I don't want treatment"??

It's a tough call. What on earth must your mil feel about all this? I do feel sorry for her. If this were my daughter....I'd stick around as long as possible. I think...
j-

PS I agree with Coach and Puppy about the email & updates...keep it short!!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/11/09 02:03 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Wow, well said. And you know, while there is some great advice here, your wife DOES have mental health issues. Depite that, she's not actually mean to you. It IS confusing to me too. Hard to advise.

It's a tough call. What on earth must your mil feel about all this? I do feel sorry for her. If this were my daughter....I'd stick around as long as possible. I think...
j-

PS I agree with Coach and Puppy about the email & updates...keep it short!!


Thank you 25. MIL told her she was making a big mistake, but W has her mind made up. MIL is leaving on Monday. I would normally agree with you about MIL. But these last 2 times her MIL has been here, she has distanced herself from me. So I am not so sure her MIL being here is all that good. She once made a comment to me about her mom's seperation from her father to the affect "I may have been better off had she made that seperation permanent." She still has quite a bit of resentment toward her father.

As far as the way she is acting, I am very confused. It doesn't seem to fit into any of the simple categories.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

But this just occurred to me to ask you, Hypothetically....what would you do if a doctor said, "we found a pituitary tumor here on the CAT Scan and it affects her mood and judgment..."?? What would you do if your wife said "I don't want treatment"??


Wait for the day when her mood and judgement changed such that her answer was "OK I will take that treatment now" :-) Seriously, I don't know; but I think patience may be the key no matter what the end result of this may be. I will use the time to improve myself. What else can I do?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/11/09 02:29 AM
Journaling:
Thursday Evening:

After the 3 e-mails from above. W sent me another informing me that it was D5's curriculum night for kindergarten. I went. W and D5 were there. I didn't say much to W. She asked me a few pleasent questions like "How are you" etc. I was very short with my responses, i.e. "Fine. Thank you."

It didn't feel right. I wanted to ask "How was your day?", but didn't. I felt I was being very rude. She complimented me to D5's teacher: "She is very good at math. Tristan has spent a lot of time teaching her." I simply smiled. The whole night was very awkward. We spent much of it next to each other in silence.

I do care about her and want to know how she is doing, but I shouldn't ask her because that would be persuing and bad for the marriage. This whole thing is so very confusing to me. I don't think I am doing it right. Like she says, I am not being myself.

I did a little housekeeping when I got home and have spent some time reading "No more Mr. Niceguy." I do enjoy the time alone. It's peaceful. However, that doesn't mean I don't miss my family.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/11/09 03:41 PM
@Coach, @Puppy - was this exchange better. Could it be improved?

W------------------------

Hi ,

Could you please forward my moms itinerary? She is leaving soon and has to give my brother the info. In addition, could you please let me know if I have mail from bank? I am still waiting for my card.

Thanks,
W

PS

For your calendar:
PTA is on the 16th at 6:30 and the conference with D5’s teacher is November 24th at 6:45.

FYI D5 scored a 29 out of 29 on her initial assessment. She is exited about school and her new friends.

M------------------------

Hola,

You will probably need to call for your mom’s itinerary. I didn’t book it, so I don’t have anything. I can bring your mail tomorrow morning when I pick up the girls.

Thanks for the dates,
T

W------------------------

They told me that they were to send an e-mail to the e-mail on file and you had mentioned that you received it…

M------------------------

Found it.
<itenerary attached>

W------------------------

Thanks!


Hi Tristan...

I haven't finished reading your thread however I will...I did want to point out a couple of things from what I read...Now remember I am the one with bi-polar so I will basing this on me and my emotions & this may be a bit long...

First thing that jumped out at me was on page 3 - "The snake is telling her that he believes her disorder is "situational" and it would likely get better if she left me. Sometimes, I find myself wondering if it is true."

Darling this is the biggest lie there is...Bi-polar isn't situational...It is scary and it sucks big time however YOU have no control over it and no it won't get better just by leaving you...

The chemical imbalance isn't caused by you...She may try to blame you however this isn't about you...There were times that I was off my meds (because I hated taking them) and no matter what, my H couldn't do anything right...I hated him for the way I felt even though he had no control over it.

I had the shortest fuse ever and nothing would make me happy...This went off and on for years...I would take my meds, feel better, go off them and then somewhere down the line, it would kick back in...It is a horrible cycle to be in so I can imagine how it is to see someone you love suffer that way...When I was medicated, I was almost normal - Unmedicated, I was a mess complete with self mutilation, suicidal tendencies and so much rage I could kill a person without blinking an eye.

The emotions that you feel as a "normal" person are magnified in her by about a thousand...I liken it to feeling like a candle in a hurricane...The emotions come flooding in, wave after wave after wave and I can't control them...There is happy, mad, sad, rage, hate etc...All in a very short time.

The thought process gets screwy for me...I have so many thoughts swirling around my head however I can't grasp even one of them and of course anyone in my line of sight is at fault...Your wife has bipolar II and I have bipolar I - Only difference is I have manic episodes and she would have hypomanic episodes (just less severe form of manic)...

Now a symptom for either form of bipolar is a tendency to engage in behavior that could have serious consequences, such as spending recklessly or inappropriate sexual encounters...It doesn't excuse her however it is something wired in there that causes her to act this way...

I was diagnosed when I was 17 and I will admit I took the sexual encounters portion to the extreme (before I was married)...After I was married it was the spending and the grandiose thoughts that I could do no wrong...

When all this started, it sent me into a full manic episode complete with paranoia and hallucinations - My worst manic episode ever, however with meds, it can be controlled...I was put on 5 different meds and when my H bailed, all my meds were doubled...That really pissed me off...I felt like I could control myself, control my emotions, keep everything in check...I failed and it was just an awful feeling for me...

My H blamed my bipolar for his A and ultimatly his leaving and that my friend was a very bitter pill to swallow...It still is - Even though I "don't own his crazy", the words were put there and the blade of the sword was felt by me and honestly it takes everything I have on some days to just make it to the end of the day.

I will continue reading and please let me know if you have any questions - I am sorry this is so long smile

Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/11/09 04:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Serenity13

I will continue reading and please let me know if you have any questions - I am sorry this is so long smile



Thank you Serenity,

I guess my first question is "Is she bipolar?" I don't think anyone is sure. The MC thought she had borderline tendencies, the psych said that she didn't. Howerver, all counselors IC, MC, and psych concluded she needed mood stabilizers after the rapid cycling occurred when she was on the anti-depressants. I think the psych may have just diagnosed bipolar to get her on the mood stabilizer. Would that make sense? I can't pinpoint to definitive times when she was hypomanic in our marriage. From what you have read; what do you think? I am not sure if it is important, like you alluded neither she or I can blame the disease for the breakup of our M. But I think I could be more compassionate if I knew there was a real chemical imbalance in her. Statements like "I don't know why I am leaving you. I love you so much." don't sound like they are coming from someone simply caught up in an A.

I will ask more questions later, but do her words and actions suggest bipolar to you? Can you identify with them? No problem with being long winded, I find this whole thing very complicated and confusing. So the more info, the better.
Much.
Quote:
Could it be improved?

Tristan. I think you over analyzing each and every interaction with your wife. They are what they are. Reviewing them in retrospect is futile. You cannot go out to the garage, have a smoke, then come back in and say this is what I meant to say. It doesnt work that way.

q: whats my mom's itinerary?
a: here it is.

That is going to be the same conversation whether you are dating, married, separated or divorced. Unless it is delivered with a punch to the mouth, what does it matter. Your wife is too busy getting on with her life to sit around figuring out what Tristan meant by "found it."

Just be confident and decisive in what you say. If she doesn't like it. So what. Gotta go goodbye sweet cheeks. 'click.'

Your words alone are not going to get your wife back home. Your actions might. Take her actions for example. The night before she moves out shes screws you then hits you with the "I think it is very possible that we will be together again" line. Man, that sounds positive, still she packed up and left. But it did have a profound effect on you; leaving you concerned about her every word or silence, worrying about compassion and support and trying to diagnosis psychological problems with third party conversations through an Internet bulletin board.

This would be a much more interesting thread if we were analyzing what Tristan is doing to prove to his wife she made the wrong choice; finding out about how she is scrambling and concerned about his every word or silence because of Tristan's new interactions and how her conversations change after she starts to think Tristan moved on and how that destroyed her fantasy of having her cake and eating it too; reading how after two years of living with a wife having an affair, Tristan realizes his wife wasn't all that and a bag of chips, the "loveless" marriage his wife's boyfriend pointed out was not his fault, and how certain actions Tristan might make that are 180 to his current supplicating style will have a more positive affect on the outcome of his relationship.

She moved out, she has a boyfriend, act as if you are single. It is going to hit her like a ton of bricks when she realizes you are no longer there giving her permission to carry on a love affair. It is then she will start to question what is going wrong. That is how this could be improved.
SMcQ
Very well said, McQ. whistle whistle


Puppy
Tristan...

Couple of things...I agree w/what Steve said above as to what you may be doing to improve things however you asked me here for a specific point of view...
Reading what I have read, there is no doubt in my mind your wife has some form of bipolar (I am leaning with II or possibly Unipolar) however that isn't an excuse to drop the bombs she has...

I threw Unipolar in there based on the age at which she was diagnosed (generally later then with Bipolar)...

A person with any of these "polars", myself included is very selfish in their thinking...It is all about them...

"Statements like "I don't know why I am leaving you. I love you so much." don't sound like they are coming from someone simply caught up in an A."

Perfect example...Not only is she caught up in the A, she is also caught up in her own mind...Again that isn't an excuse simply because no matter how imbalanced her mind is, it is treatable - Hence the mood stabilizers...

Now mood stabilizers w/anti-depressants may be the best thing for her - That is what I take now...For a long time I only took a mood stabilizer - Lithium (because I wasn't ever prone to much of the depression side of things)...

I have gotten about 1/2 through your posts and will say I applaud you for the way you have treated your wife with respect concerning her sexual assault...I had the same thing happen to me at 16 and only recently started dealing with it.

Is your wife on meds at this time? (it may say however I started reading at the beginning so I could grasp the whole situation)...I will continue reading/posting as well. I do hope this is helping. smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/12/09 03:35 AM
Originally Posted By: Serenity13
Is your wife on meds at this time?

Yes. She started Celexa in December for the depression, which she always battled. They added Lamictal in June that really seemed to help. But after a month she had an allergic reaction that could be fatal, so she immediately stopped it. That really affected her mood. It took over a week to get Abilify prescribed (her psych was on vacation). That seemed to stabilize her mood, but she still decided to move out. She has continued to take Celexa the whole time.

This all very much helps. I hadn't read anything about selfish thinking in bipolars. That is new to me. Does this come only in the manic or depressive stages or is it all the time? Do the meds help or do you just learn to control it?

I am sorry to hear about your assault. I hope you are able to find peace, I know my W still struggles with it.

Thank you so much.
Thank you for your kind words...I search for peace every day and I am ok with where I am at this stage, some days are better then others...

Lamictal - Wasn't a fan...

Never had Celexa and I have taken Abilify as well...

Right now I take Geodon (antipsychotic used for bipolar as well as schizophrenia), Buspar for depression and Niravam (Xanax) for panic attacks...

Yes the meds help however it is in combination with sleep/therapy/stress relief etc...

Selfish thinking - Not a symptom of it however it goes along with it...

If it isn't under control and stable/then you are thinking all about you and how this is affecting you and how you feel...

If it isn't treated/it can consume you...

Your thoughts/actions/emotions get the better of you, that is when paranoia sets in and you begin to think everyone/everything is out to get you including your own mind and that will then possibly lead to suicidal thoughts...

I have tried for over 20 years to control it however each time it ends up controlling me...

Until I accepted the fact that I would be this way for life, that I would be medicated for life, I let it consume me...

Now I don't...I take my meds...Make sure I get enough sleep...I don't drink or use drugs and I see a psych Dr. every 6 weeks...My faith has been what has sustained me throughout this...Without that, there isn't enough medication in the world to get me through this...

There is no "magic pill" she can take, get all better, then go back to the person she used to be and come home...

I don't want to be a downer however the choices ultimately are hers with or without the bipolar, she is still choosing her course of actions...

Her emotions being amplified aren't helping matters but in the end don't let her use that to justify her actions because no matter how it is spun, there is no justification for her behavior (I don't mean to be so blunt)...

This I learned the hard way...

Ok back to reading smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/12/09 05:03 AM
Originally Posted By: Serenity13
If it isn't under control and stable/then you are thinking all about you and how this is affecting you and how you feel...


This I can identify with. Her feelings often play a major role in her thought process.

Originally Posted By: Serenity13
Your thoughts/actions/emotions get the better of you, that is when paranoia sets in and you begin to think everyone/everything is out to get you including your own mind


This has been especially true lately. She has even told me a couple times in the past month that she was being paranoid. A few months ago she was seeing illusions (ghosts or demons); I really began to think that she may be schizophrenic. She knew they were not real, but she really saw them.

Originally Posted By: Serenity13
Niravam (Xanax) for panic attacks...


My W was prescribed this after her panic attack as well. Do panic attacks tend to be a part of bipolar?

Originally Posted By: Serenity13
I don't want to be a downer however the choices ultimately are hers with or without the bipolar, she is still choosing her course of actions...

Her emotions being amplified aren't helping matters but in the end don't let her use that to justify her actions because no matter how it is spun, there is no justification for her behavior (I don't mean to be so blunt)...


I understand this. But you said that it took you 20 years to get it all sorted out. Doesn't she deserve a little extra time to get some of this stuff sorted out in her head? In the meantime I can GAL and detach. If she is bipolar, I understand that it is better for the spouse to be somewhat detached anyway. Then they are more emotionally prepared to deal with the depressive or manic episodes when they occur.
Hi Tristan...

Panic attacks are new to me so I can't say yes or no...

I only recently started getting them (in the last year) but I have never heard of them being a symptom of bipolar...

Has her Dr. mentioned anything about schizophrenia?

There were times that I thought I was as well (in the beginning of this mess)...I literally thought I was losing my mind...

20 years to accept what I should have accepted years ago - Not sort it out, true acceptance...

My H was never detached so I would assume to play it by ear on detaching from that aspect...

There is nothing to prepare you for the manic episode and I pray you never have to live through one smile
There's a reason it's not good to come off many (most) psychoative drugs cold turkey; bad stuff ensues. Obviously, in her case, she had no choice. But it's not to be wondered at that her emotions are still all over the place.

Selfish thinking seems to be a pretty constant feature in anyone suffering depression (speaking as someone who has done several rounds with "regular" depression, not bipolar.) It's not so much that the depressed person doesn't *care* about their family, friends, responsibilities, FITB ... it's just that the "background noise" of their own pain is so loud that it tends to drown everyone else's out. As an adult, don't look for too much care-taking from a depressed person; you'll be unlikely to get it and if you expect it, the pressure of expectation can seem like an intolerable burden to them. That's why self-care for you in your situation is so important.

There's not really a whole lot beyond good self-care that you can do about any of this, except what you're already doing. Be a good man and father, a stable individual, the better choice ... hopefully she will be able to get her own head together enough to recognize you as such.
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/12/09 08:37 AM
"But I had this problem of always needing her to be on a schedule. If she would go out and said she would be back by 6. I expected her to be back by 6. If it didn't happen that way, I would get upset and be trying to call her at 6:01. She still reminds me of a time when she spent a month trying to get time to go out with a girlfriend and when she finally was able to schedule a breakfast date on a Saturday and she returned 2 hours late - it ruined our whole weekend because I was so upset."

Tristan--just started reading your thread and i found this. this has happened over and over again with us. she'll say to me, you don't let me go out with your friends, you get so angry and controlling about it. i say, i'm angry cause you didn't call to say you'd be late. . . and we had plans for afterwards.

just wanted to throw that in there. i've read in a couple places bipolar people feel like their partners are controlling because they themselves are inconsistent, and it exacerbates the situation. my response to her depressive episodes has been to tighten up, try to make more rules. . . it's really backfired.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/12/09 03:51 PM
Journaling:

Friday:
No contact with W other than e-mail above. Went for a 4 mile run after work. Did some laundry and went out for a quick drink.

Saturday:
Took girls to soccer this morning. D5 says she would rather do gymnastics instead. She says soccer has too much running, bummer. Oh well, there is still hope for D3.

When I dropped them off:
D5: "Do you want to come up and see my new room."
M: "Sorry, D5 I can't."
D5: "Please."
M: "Sorry."
W: "You are welcome to come in."
M: "You know I won't."
W: nods head
D3: "Where are you going daddy?"
M: "I need to go home"
...

Going out of town to an old friend's place. He is having a party. Should be some old classmates there.
Tristan,

Have you tried DB coaching? I found them greatly helpful and specific in their advice. As much as I loved my pro-M T, and give him a lot of credit, I have to say the single best thing for my sitch was the DB coaching.... it costs about the same at T does around here. Besides, divorce costs way more.

I'd strongly suggest you try them b/c they'll even assign you someone with more insight into your type of issue. The whole mental health stuff in your sitch throws me a bit so I feel like you need some prof help here. I mean, this is not the typical WAS at all. And she has a documented past history of problems....so.

Good luck,
j-
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/13/09 05:33 PM
Journaling:

In July, my W and I took a trip. During that trip she decided that she would quit her job and we would move several thousand miles away, my company was offering me the relocation, as a last ditch effort to get away from OM. It was a wonderful trip. The first day back from the trip, she resigned and told OM that she was done. We started preparing the house for sale and everything seemed to progressing well.

About a week after our return, she had the allergic reaction to her meds. Her friend told her that the move was a terrible idea and that she should explore her feelings instead. The MC also said the move was an impulsive decission and probably not a good idea. She went back to her job and started talking to OM again.

Anyway, on that trip, she bought me a little nordic medallion symbolizing inspiration & transformation. I have worn it around my neck everyday since. That is until this morning, the strap must have broke and the medallion is gone. I feel horrible about it. I know it is just a thing, but it meant so much to me... and her.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/13/09 05:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Serenity13

Has her Dr. mentioned anything about schizophrenia?


She told the Dr about the illusions and he never mentioned schizophrenia. He made a differentiation because she knew they were not real. The way she described these things to me is that they would come out of patterns in the grain of wood or tiled floors, etc.

Originally Posted By: Serenity13

There were times that I thought I was as well (in the beginning of this mess)...I literally thought I was losing my mind...


She has often told me that she thought she "was going crazy"

Thank you Serenity.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/13/09 05:55 PM
Originally Posted By: ryepatch

Tristan--just started reading your thread and i found this. this has happened over and over again with us. she'll say to me, you don't let me go out with your friends, you get so angry and controlling about it. i say, i'm angry cause you didn't call to say you'd be late. . . and we had plans for afterwards.

just wanted to throw that in there. i've read in a couple places bipolar people feel like their partners are controlling because they themselves are inconsistent, and it exacerbates the situation. my response to her depressive episodes has been to tighten up, try to make more rules. . . it's really backfired.


Yes. She has called me a "control freak". I used to very bad at this and am still trying to improve. But yes, I think being married to someone with bipolar tendencies really tests the limits on this.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/13/09 05:57 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Tristan,

Have you tried DB coaching? I found them greatly helpful and specific in their advice. As much as I loved my pro-M T, and give him a lot of credit, I have to say the single best thing for my sitch was the DB coaching.... it costs about the same at T does around here. Besides, divorce costs way more.

I'd strongly suggest you try them b/c they'll even assign you someone with more insight into your type of issue. The whole mental health stuff in your sitch throws me a bit so I feel like you need some prof help here. I mean, this is not the typical WAS at all. And she has a documented past history of problems....so.

Good luck,
j-



Hi 25. I have been thinking of trying one, but was afraid they wouldn't have someone that would understand the mental health side of this. But if you think they would have a specialist for this, I definitely would think of trying it.

Thanks again 25.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/14/09 03:08 AM
Journaling:

Just arrived from my weekend out of town. It was good. Saw some friends on Saturday at a party. Questions about W are difficult to answer, I have not told anyone outside of the family that we have seperated yet.

At the party, a woman was getting uncomfortably friendly with me. I still wear my wedding ring and she had one on as well. I wouldn't call it flirting, it was just wierd. I think her husband noticed it too. He never left her side the rest of the night; always having his arm wrapped around her. I really felt like going up to him and saying: "Dude, you are going about this all wrong."

Attended a professional soccer match with my 13 yr younger brother today. It was good to talk to him. I told him about the seperation. Everyone in the family is pretty surprised with this whole thing, he was probably the least surprised though. He said he started noticing differences in W back in April.

W sent a picture of D5's art (I think it was a chalk drawing) to my phone today. I sent a text backing saying that is was very good and asking where it was at. I didn't receive a reply. That was the only contact with W this weekend.

I get the girls starting tomorrow for a few days :-)
Originally Posted By: tristan
At the party, a woman was getting uncomfortably friendly with me. I still wear my wedding ring and she had one on as well. I wouldn't call it flirting, it was just wierd. I think her husband noticed it too. He never left her side the rest of the night; always having his arm wrapped around her. I really felt like going up to him and saying: "Dude, you are going about this all wrong."


in what way?

sounds like he might have got some later
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/14/09 04:19 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: ryepatch

Tristan--just started reading your thread and i found this. this has happened over and over again with us. she'll say to me, you don't let me go out with your friends, you get so angry and controlling about it. i say, i'm angry cause you didn't call to say you'd be late. . . and we had plans for afterwards.

just wanted to throw that in there. i've read in a couple places bipolar people feel like their partners are controlling because they themselves are inconsistent, and it exacerbates the situation. my response to her depressive episodes has been to tighten up, try to make more rules. . . it's really backfired.


Yes. She has called me a "control freak". I used to very bad at this and am still trying to improve. But yes, I think being married to someone with bipolar tendencies really tests the limits on this.


Tristan you aren't a control freak, so don't worry about the label. If you were really in control of everything, your wife would be at home and you would have the greatest relationship you could possibly have with her - currently she's not at home, I would say that settles any arguments about the control issue.

Time off is good, enjoy it.

What you felt at that party is a woman flirting with you.
You said it felt weird and although there was no overt verbal communication that said to you this woman is interested in you, the body language sang a different tune entirely. You felt it, you said it yourself, it felt uncomfortable, the woman's husband noticed it too, that's why he wouldn't leave her side after he observed this, I would encourage you to go out more and spend some time making observations like this - body language is so important. How was your mood at the party, were you sad, blank or withdrawn or did you appear happy, funny, engaging,etc. I'm assuming the latter, you exhibited qualities and body language that was attractive and a woman responded accordingly. It really is a science, flick these switches and receive these responses.

And guess what? You maintained control while you knew what was happening and you didn't have an affair & get laid and all that other stuff that accompanies having an affair.

I'm sure you could exhibit this kind of control if you started dating.

Your wife is living in an apartment and although she may have mentioned that she won't date, truth be told, I don't believe she is going to stop seeing the OM. I would consider this dating. However I think she doesn't want you to date, she likes having you as a the safe 2nd backup option as i've mentioned several times already - just in case things don't work out.

I've read you mention her mental condition, the medications she's on, her erratic feelings & behaviors,etc. Her condition doesn't make her an invalid. She is fully conscious of the choices she's making and the feelings she is acting on, and she feels guilty for some of her actions, you witness it everytime she cries in front of you, etc. She knows she should be at home with her husband, she knows she shouldn't be doing these things to her family and yet she still does it, although she has these feelings and she knows what would be the right thing to do, right now it's all background noise and she is choosing to filter it out so that she can follow her hormones and the excitement of the affair. I'll be honest, I'm tired of hearing that her mental condition is causing all of this: depression, MLC, bipolar, those things are all affecting her moods and her feelings and her emotions but in the end she still chooses to consciously act the way she does and block out what she knows to be true in her head - it's her "get of our jail, pass go and collect $200" card, she know the difference between up & down, right & left, good & bad and still chooses to do what she wants to do to pursue the excitement in her life which has been missing for quite some time. If she really wasn't in control of her actions, would you really trust her with your children? Wouldn't you be worried that she ignore right & wrong right now and do something harmful with the children and then she could blame it on her mental condition. Why is it only with you that she gets the free pass with her questionable actions? Because you enabled her to do so.

You haven't been a source of excitement in her life for quite some time, you have been a stable provider, a good partner and a good father and those are all excellent things but they aren't exciting and it's the one piece of the puzzle she hasn't had in such a long time.

You want to add some excitement to her life and your own, start dating. Watch what happens when she finds out that she is in jeopardy of losing you to another woman, watch as she will try to get back what she gave up, it will happen.

As far as the communications thus far, continue to keep them brief, do you see how it affects you, after a while when the dynamic in your relationship changes, she will be the one questioning why you aren't communicating as much.

As much as our situations are different, they are very similar.

BTW - My wife was also on celexa (which after reading all the horror stories on the net with it's side effects, I wonder why it was ever approved), my wife also has bi-polar tendencies, depression, moods flipping back & forth between anger, sadness, happiness (wash, rinse & repeat) and she also had friends which encouraged her to pursue the single life which was exciting. The problem is after a while those friends faded away (they ultimately found other people to influence, got into their own relationships or got bored with the friends they had) and after a while I smartened up, I was labeled a control freak originally but in the end after alot of heavy duty analysis on my part, the real control freak was my wife, not me. After I put my foot down, said enough was enough, wouldn't put up with her ways, I started dating, seeing other women, enjoying life, going to the gym, looking better, feeling better, shopping, taking care of myself, spending time with friends, getting a life and really enjoying life and realizing that I had been holding back a part of my life which should have always been a priority, things changed. My wife changed, and she was the one who started pursuing me.

Our situations aren't that different Tristan,
when people say the situations are different, it's just excuses we're using to make our own lives a little better and easier to digest.

Nothing much in this world is new anymore, we may all be different people but we're all going through the same experiences with a few twists here & there: your situation isn't new and neither is mine or anyone else's on this forum regardless of the much heralded excuse "But my spouse is different..."

How are you feeling today Tristan?
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/14/09 04:23 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Tristan,

Have you tried DB coaching? I found them greatly helpful and specific in their advice. As much as I loved my pro-M T, and give him a lot of credit, I have to say the single best thing for my sitch was the DB coaching.... it costs about the same at T does around here. Besides, divorce costs way more.

I'd strongly suggest you try them b/c they'll even assign you someone with more insight into your type of issue. The whole mental health stuff in your sitch throws me a bit so I feel like you need some prof help here. I mean, this is not the typical WAS at all. And she has a documented past history of problems....so.

Good luck,
j-



Hi 25. I have been thinking of trying one, but was afraid they wouldn't have someone that would understand the mental health side of this. But if you think they would have a specialist for this, I definitely would think of trying it.

Thanks again 25.


Can someone explain to me what part of Tristan's wife's behavior isn't typical WAS behavior?

From what Tristan has posted thus far, it sounds to me like TEXTBOOK WAS BEHAVIOR.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/14/09 04:29 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Serenity13

Has her Dr. mentioned anything about schizophrenia?


She told the Dr about the illusions and he never mentioned schizophrenia. He made a differentiation because she knew they were not real. The way she described these things to me is that they would come out of patterns in the grain of wood or tiled floors, etc.

Originally Posted By: Serenity13

There were times that I thought I was as well (in the beginning of this mess)...I literally thought I was losing my mind...


She has often told me that she thought she "was going crazy"

Thank you Serenity.


Yes she thinks she's going crazy, could it be she is just having a hard time trying to understand why she feels attracted to another man so much that she wants to leave her loving husband to have a relationship with this OM?

Your wife is in her early to mid 30's, she's experiencing an increased production of testosterone in her body (and a decrease in the amount of estrogen), while at the same time you are experiencing a decrease in testosterone and an actual increase in estrogen, she is looking for some "strange" for lack of a better description and yes it's not something she understands, although she can have sex with her husband, she wants something new, different, exciting with another man... I wonder why.

She used to be the parent that worried about every little thing that may impact her children and now she is making choices that she knows will impact her kids but still chooses to do so for her own interests while at the same time, your interests in taking care of your family & children have increased where it becomes a major focus in your life and you think about it daily. She is becoming cold, distant, and decreasing her communication to you all at the same time you want to increase these things. Sexual polarity seems to be an issue in this relationship.

There is a science to this Tristan, I keep mentioning this, you need to start doing some research on this, knowledge is power.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/14/09 05:09 PM
Originally Posted By: robx

How are you feeling today Tristan?


Thanks Robx. Your posts always seem to make me feel a little better. I am sad. Not so much because I miss my W although that is part of it. But I think of the 12 years that we had, the 2 children we share, the plans we had for our lives; and I see them all dissolving in front of my eyes. Its just sad, no other way to put it.

I am hanging in there though. Trying to stay healthy (physically, mentally & spiritually).
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/14/09 05:27 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
There is a science to this Tristan, I keep mentioning this, you need to start doing some research on this, knowledge is power.


What would you suggest that I read? Is there much I can do about it?

Dating? I can't do it. I would be a horrible date right now anyway. However, I have looked into some single parent groups. They take the kids to different events together. It would be a good way to meet new people and take care of the girls at the same time. Seems like a reasonable way to GAL to me.
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Tristan,

Have you tried DB coaching? I found them greatly helpful and specific in their advice. As much as I loved my pro-M T, and give him a lot of credit, I have to say the single best thing for my sitch was the DB coaching.... it costs about the same at T does around here. Besides, divorce costs way more.

I'd strongly suggest you try them b/c they'll even assign you someone with more insight into your type of issue. The whole mental health stuff in your sitch throws me a bit so I feel like you need some prof help here. I mean, this is not the typical WAS at all. And she has a documented past history of problems....so.

Good luck,
j-



Hi 25. I have been thinking of trying one, but was afraid they wouldn't have someone that would understand the mental health side of this. But if you think they would have a specialist for this, I definitely would think of trying it.

Thanks again 25.


Can someone explain to me what part of Tristan's wife's behavior isn't typical WAS behavior?

From what Tristan has posted thus far, it sounds to me like TEXTBOOK WAS BEHAVIOR.


I agree.

Puppy
Originally Posted By: tristan
What would you suggest that I read?


Muscle & Fitness Magazine. Get to the Gym. Develop a new exercise routine. Get your mind off your wife. Enjoy the Hardness.

Rob asked "what part of Tristan's wife's behavior isn't typical WAS behavior?" I think you might also want to be asking yourself, what is atypical of her boyfiend's behavior and the story as you think you know it.

What divorced man pursues a married subordinant coworker for two years for just a little "kissing?" I think he would have become bored with your wife if that was all she was putting out. Is your wife that great on the phone that he would try and convince to leave her marriage for more phone conversation. Think about it.

I think there is alot to this story you do not know about and refuse to see. That said, your wife's behavior is very typical of someone entrenched in a long term affair; the aneixty, the depressive episodes, wavering back and forth, holding info back from the MC, needing space and wanting to move out after she sees the OM, making love to you so you don't become too suspicious. I bet her boyfriend doesnt question if she is bipolar.

Quote:
Is there much I can do about it?


I say dump her and do it quick. Right now she is enjoying alot of freedom and space. She probably has few worries and knows you are her back up plan. She probably lays in bed at night talking with her boyfriend; And knows if she needs cash or a car you will be there for her, hoping that will win her back. What if she was faced with the dilemma that Tristan no longer cared and no longer wanted to wait around for seconds. She would have alot of concerns and worries and probably would be thinking about you alot more than she is now.

Quote:
Dating? I can't do it. I would be a horrible date right now anyway.


Why not, I'm not going to tell your wife. And if she did find out it would probably bust up her affair alot quicker than what you have been doing thus far. Find someone else who is a "horrible date right now" also and you can practice on eachother.

SMcQ
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/15/09 02:27 AM
Tristan you aren't a control freak, so don't worry about the label. If you were really in control of everything, your wife would be at home and you would have the greatest relationship you could possibly have with her - currently she's not at home, I would say that settles any arguments about the control issue.

[/quote]

i love this!
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/15/09 02:31 AM
Originally Posted By: robx
[quote=tristan][quote=ryepatch]watch as she will try to get back what she gave up, it will happen.
my wife also has bi-polar tendencies, depression, moods flipping back & forth between anger, sadness, happiness (wash, rinse & repeat) and she also had friends which encouraged her to pursue the single life which was exciting. The problem is after a while those friends faded away (they ultimately found other people to influence, got into their own relationships or got bored with the friends they had) and after a while I smartened up, I was labeled a control freak originally but in the end after alot of heavy duty analysis on my part, the real control freak was my wife, not me. After I put my foot down, said enough was enough, wouldn't put up with her ways, I started dating, seeing other women, enjoying life, going to the gym, looking better, feeling better, shopping, taking care of myself, spending time with friends, getting a life and really enjoying life and realizing that I had been holding back a part of my life which should have always been a priority, things changed. My wife changed, and she was the one who started pursuing me.


rob,

i don't know if you've looked at my thread, my wife isn't having an affair (everyone's pretty sure about that), but otherwise it's kind of similar. her single, divorced friends she's living with and hanging out with are definitely pushing her.

wondering if what you said above applies to my sitch.


tristan,

hang in there. someday we'll be vindicated! there's a difference between control and nurturing love, they just don't see it.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/15/09 02:44 AM
Journaling:

Started my day out with a 4 mile run. Robx must be right about my testosterone levels, because my runs aren't close to what they use to be.

Got to work rather early so I could be at home in time to pick up girls. I did find a replacement for the pendant I lost on Saturday and put in an order. W stopped by daycare to drop of carseat. Girls saw her car and wanted to go see her. We stop by.

M: "What did you do to your hair?"
W: "I ruined it."
M: "It looks fine."
W: "I'm going to change it back."

She has dyed her hair to a much lighter brown. It doesn't look bad. In fact I think it was close to that color when I met her, it is just quite a bit different. That was about the extent of our conversation today.

When W left, D3 had a meltdown. She wanted to go with mommy. She got over it after a while. The girls and I watched Witch Mountain this evening and then went to bed. Not too bad for their first night alone with me.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/15/09 08:22 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:

Started my day out with a 4 mile run. Robx must be right about my testosterone levels, because my runs aren't close to what they use to be.

Got to work rather early so I could be at home in time to pick up girls. I did find a replacement for the pendant I lost on Saturday and put in an order. W stopped by daycare to drop of carseat. Girls saw her car and wanted to go see her. We stop by.

M: "What did you do to your hair?"
W: "I ruined it."
M: "It looks fine."
W: "I'm going to change it back."

She has dyed her hair to a much lighter brown. It doesn't look bad. In fact I think it was close to that color when I met her, it is just quite a bit different. That was about the extent of our conversation today.

When W left, D3 had a meltdown. She wanted to go with mommy. She got over it after a while. The girls and I watched Witch Mountain this evening and then went to bed. Not too bad for their first night alone with me.


Rob, right?!
It can't be.

LOL!

Tristan, from now on call me "Rob", no need to add the x anymore, my name isn't Malcolm ;-)

As for me being right, it happens,
I'm not 100% all the time but I pride myself on the education I've afforded myself in the past 2 years on this whole topics of WAW's, affairs, the changes in men & women in their 30s, why affairs happen, the things to do to turn things around, the things not to do, being masculine, being a man, not being an a$$hole or a prick, body language, lies, deception, etc.

I would really love it if you would take some of our advice and try it - you have nothing to lose at this point. By your own admission, you would be a "poor date", great, all the better reason to do it, time to pump up your confidence and get it going in the right direction.

I'm not asking you to sleep with another woman.
I'm not asking you to get romantically involved.
I'm asking you to turn your situation around, I'm asking you not to spend 1-2 years learning this and to learn from our experiences: a smart man learns from his experiences, a smarter man learns from the experiences of others so that he doesn't have to repeat the same mistakes to achieve the same results.

Im asking you to date other women.

I'm asking you to review Steve McQueen's post several times because I couldn't have put it in better words myself (puppy, I think that post deserves your 4 whistles award).

Think about it, review it, examine it, think about it.

People who have affairs will lie to their spouses, admitting the gory details of the affair and how far it's actually progressed is something most WAW's would never admit to unless they are forced to.

She's on many meds, I hear you, I've been through that with my own wife, your thread is the one that interests me the most out of all of these because it mirrored my own situation more closely than any of the others.

I can't force you to do anything.
In fact I don't want to either.
I am only excited to be able to offer you the insight and advantage of my own experience because our situations are so similar so you don't have to drag your sorry behind for several months until you get it in your head to actually try this.

Stop supplicating your wife and enabling her behaviors because she has "mental health issues".

You want to lift your wife out of the fog she's in,
give her a dose of the medicine she's been feeding you but remain in control during the entire time. View her responses, watch as your own behaviors and confidence improve, watch as your self-respect & self-value grow by leaps & bounds because you start to realize how valuable a person you really are - you currently let your wife determine your value which is why you are stuck in limbo, trying to decide what you should do with yourself while your wife enjoys the "company" of another man.

Whatever you do, realize that action is required in some form or another, good intentions will get you no where.

How are you feeling today Tristan?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/15/09 09:06 PM
Rob,

I feel fine, thank you. I talked to IC today and told him that I had signed up for a "Single Parents Group" online. I then mentioned that I felt a little uncomfortable about it after receiving several responses (all from women) saying things similiar to "Can't wait to meet you!" He thought it was a good idea to go to the events; saying I can't isolate myself while also mentioning that I will be vulnerable and to be careful.

So it may not be dating, but it is socializing with the opposite sex. For now, I would say it is a happy medium.

Gotta go pick up the girls.
Quote:
Gotta go pick up the girls.



grin
Originally Posted By: ryepatch
Tristan you aren't a control freak, so don't worry about the label. If you were really in control of everything, your wife would be at home and you would have the greatest relationship you could possibly have with her - currently she's not at home, I would say that settles any arguments about the control issue.



i love this!
[/quote]

A control freak isn't someone who accomplishes control of others, it's someone who desires to control others, needs to control others, feels justified in controlling others. How much they achieve has nothing to do with it. There are small tyrants everywhere, ever been to a PTA meeting? lol.

BTW, I don't think you're a control freak either, tristan, I just thought that was an odd way to define it.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 01:56 AM
Journaling:

Was able to get the girls out the door by 7:30 this morning. Had a decent day at work. Talked to the IC about my first week seperated. Told him that I was doing better than I had expected and about going from being intimate to essentially NC overnight.

He wanted to know my plan. Hmmmm, don't I get a little more time than a week to come up with a plan for my life after my wife walks out on me? I guess not. That's when I told him about my plans for Gal'ing. Beyond that I am just going to settle into my new life.

He seemed to be pretty pessimistic about the prospects for our marriage. I am guessing he knows a little more than I about our relationship because he can share info with my wife's IC (they are part of the same clinic).

I took had the girls again tonight. We watched another movie tonight. This time I put a sheet out over the floor with a bunch of pillows. I ended up being the pillow for the girls. It was nice, but still not the family it used to be. I will need to do something more than movies for entertainment pretty soon. I am just trying to get into a flow right now.

I sent W an e-mail this morning:
---
Hi.
Girls did fine last night. We all watched “Witch Mountain”. D3 ended up in my bed.
-T

She replied:
---
Thanks! Glad to hear it

That was it for our communication today. Strange how things change in a week.
Posted By: C-Bart Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 02:01 AM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Rob,

I feel fine, thank you. I talked to IC today and told him that I had signed up for a "Single Parents Group" online. I then mentioned that I felt a little uncomfortable about it after receiving several responses (all from women) saying things similiar to "Can't wait to meet you!" He thought it was a good idea to go to the events; saying I can't isolate myself while also mentioning that I will be vulnerable and to be careful.

So it may not be dating, but it is socializing with the opposite sex. For now, I would say it is a happy medium.

Gotta go pick up the girls.


Tristen,
Let me know how the single parents group works out. I've started to sign up for a group like this but, just can't pull the triger.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 02:02 AM
Originally Posted By: robx

Tristan, from now on call me "Rob", no need to add the x anymore, my name isn't Malcolm ;-)


But there are so many Robs and only one Robx.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 02:11 AM
Originally Posted By: breakaway

BTW, I don't think you're a control freak either, tristan.


Thank you. But do you really think you know me well enough to say that ;-)

Originally Posted By: breakaway

There are small tyrants everywhere, ever been to a PTA meeting? lol.


Nope, but I am going to my first tomorrow.

BTW I've missed you here breakaway. Thanks for stopping by.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Hmmmm, don't I get a little more time than a week to come up with a plan for my life after my wife walks out on me?


nope. the longer you wait the lower your chances of success.

Originally Posted By: tristan
That was it for our communication today. Strange how things change in a week.


things had changed along time ago you just didnt notice. DAM.

Originally Posted By: tristan
So it may not be dating, but it is socializing with the opposite sex. For now, I would say it is a happy medium.


realize you will need to start dating your wife again to reconcile. you cannot just walk back into your old marriage and why the hell would you. you are going to need to court her again. and you don't remember how to. Social Interaction. LOL.

Hitting the "jealousy button" would be a winning option in your situation. Imagine this scenerio:

daughter: Mommy we got new friends.
wife: oh really?
daughter: yeah, Daddy's friend Jolene has 2 girls too, we go to the park, and for ice cream, they come over and watch movies and we went out to red robins for dinner friday night and we stayed up past midnight playing.
wife: oh! $hit. this isnt what i planned for. it didnt take him little over a week to come up with a plan to move on with his life after I walked out on him. and this other guy his feet smell.

Quote:
Dolly Parton:

And I can easily understand
How you could easily take my man
But you dont know what he means to me, jolene

Jolene, jolene, jolene, jolene
Im begging of you please dont take my man
Jolene, jolene, jolene, jolene
Please dont take him just because you can
just a quick note to remind y'all that the Jolenes of the world have feelings too. So while you guys want to press your wives' jealousy buttons by using single moms and their kids, well...keep that in mind. I personally don't think you should date someone unless you are actually interested in that person, not as a tool to make your wife jealous.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 01:34 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
just a quick note to remind y'all that the Jolenes of the world have feelings too. So while you guys want to press your wives' jealousy buttons by using single moms and their kids, well...keep that in mind. I personally don't think you should date someone unless you are actually interested in that person, not as a tool to make your wife jealous.


It isn't fair to the kids either. They get 2 new friends this week and then lose them when it inevitably doesn't work out. I am not ready to date.

I am going to get decked up, look good, act confident, be attractive, converse and hope women notice. That is all I need to boost my ego. I have enough drama in my life, I don't need anymore.

I don't want my wife to come back because of jealousy. When I am ready to date, I will file.

By the way, I know a lot of you are telling me that my W is lying to me and maybe she is. But right now, I don't see what good it does to not trust her.
Tristan, whatever is wrong with your wife, she is not emotionally healthy. That means it's doubly important for YOU to be emotionally healthy, for your kids' sake. They already are going to have to deal with whatever chaos is going to come from your wife, especially if she does continue in a R with the OM and they have that to deal with.

So, I have to disagree with SmQ..I mean do your kids really need to have an OW to go with an OM? That's disgusting. Are you going to teach them to respect marriage or not? Until you are divorced, they should not see you dating. This is all very confusing to children. Getting together with a group for social interaction is one thing, but what's being suggested is some kind of juvenile "fight fire with fire" attitude that is not the mark of a mature man. Last time I checked, none of us were in high school.

It's nice to be flattered to raise our self-esteem, but trying to raise your testosterone by getting involved with other women is JUVENILE. Self-worth has to come from within, not from flirting. That's only as good as the last encounter. Also, you could end up, in the state you are in now, falling for someone, and wouldn't THAT be a fine kettle of fish for you to be in. You have enough problems with your family.

Work on you, go to your IC, build yourself. Don't play games. Games are for emotionally UNhealthy people. Get healthy. Look at why you were attracted to someone like your wife in the first place. Not just everyone is attracted to borderline type women. Find out why you are, ESPECIALLY before you spend significant time with other women. What is it about YOU that is drawn to someone like that.

Your children need you to be rock-solid right now. I know it's hard, and it sucks, but it's the truth. If you want to be a "real man" then be a great dad.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: breakaway
just a quick note to remind y'all that the Jolenes of the world have feelings too. So while you guys want to press your wives' jealousy buttons by using single moms and their kids, well...keep that in mind. I personally don't think you should date someone unless you are actually interested in that person, not as a tool to make your wife jealous.


It isn't fair to the kids either. They get 2 new friends this week and then lose them when it inevitably doesn't work out. I am not ready to date.

I am going to get decked up, look good, act confident, be attractive, converse and hope women notice. That is all I need to boost my ego. I have enough drama in my life, I don't need anymore.

I don't want my wife to come back because of jealousy. When I am ready to date, I will file.

By the way, I know a lot of you are telling me that my W is lying to me and maybe she is. But right now, I don't see what good it does to not trust her.


oops! cross post! I see you already get what I'm saying. But at least others can read that and maybe think about it.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 01:50 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway


oops! cross post! I see you already get what I'm saying. But at least others can read that and maybe think about it.


You say it much better than I anyway. Thanks.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 02:32 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Look at why you were attracted to someone like your wife in the first place. Not just everyone is attracted to borderline type women.


Hi breakaway.

Is there a reason you used borderline here instead of bipolar? Have you been following this thread?

Just wondering
- T
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 02:59 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
just a quick note to remind y'all that the Jolenes of the world have feelings too. So while you guys want to press your wives' jealousy buttons by using single moms and their kids, well...keep that in mind. I personally don't think you should date someone unless you are actually interested in that person, not as a tool to make your wife jealous.


we aren't saying (at least I haven't been) to date one woman and get into a relationship with her and then break their heart when your wife comes back - date several women, how hard could it be?

I disagree on the "game" idea, once you view this as a game, you realize that you have to do certain things to get your spouse's attention back: get a life, 180s, personal development & improvement, going "dark", no contact/limited contact, dating others, etc. If none of these things worked at all why are they promoted at all on this site?

Or the flipside is this, and it's valid alternative as well:
let go of your spouse, stop wanting them back, stop loving them, let them go, if they're with someone else, give up, they left you so the marriage is worthless, no need to prove to anyone: yourself, the kids, or the world for that matter that the marriage has worth, no need to wait for reconciliation or the hope that the spouse would maybe come back when they're tired of the other person. Just give up.

Train yourself to give up when this happens, every relationship you have, when similar things occur again (and they will), just give up, don't bother trying, don't bother working hard to improve yourself, don't bother fighting for the relationship at all, don't wallow in self-pity, just give up, move on.

After all, it's only love and you can love someone else, regardless if it's for forever or just a couple of days.

Plus this talk about introducing the people you date to your children, what kind of wacko nut burger would ever do that?! Why would you do that? What would be the requirement for doing that? Unless you've been dating a person several times, long enough to consider an actual relationship with them, why would you ever introduce the people you are dating to your young children? Why is this even an option - why would you?

Tristan do you want your wife back? I'm not sure I've even asked you this yet in all of our posts.

I guess you have to decide this - if you don't want your wife back, move on gracefully and be a good person for yourself and a good parent to your kids and embrace your new single life and prepare yourself for the eventual process of pursuing dating & relationships with other women. Get some counselling for the emotions you feel, the pain & withdrawal, getting over the past, and moving forward.

If you do want your wife back, it won't happen by sitting at home and attending single parent meetings. There is a process to this and it works but it only works if you put the work into it. This isn't just about jealousy, seriously, it's about painting the picture for your wife that you aren't waiting for her anymore, she takes for granted your existence in her life, when you move on and the fear of loss is generated, only then will your wife realize what she is losing and only then will she make the decision to leave the OM - until then she has you exactly where she wants you to be: at home, suffering, thinking about how many times she has communicated to you, thinking about your relationship with her, feeling the fear of loss of her not being your life anymore and her being with an OM - and at the same time know that she isn't feeling 10% of what you feel right now.

As for the "Jolene's" in this world, they have feelings, we all have feelings, no one is asking Tristan to go "steady" with the first "Jolene" he comes in contact with, go out meet Jolene, share a meal or go for coffee, find out about them, maybe make a friend or a new acquaintance and continue meeting other "Jolene's" without making any committments or getting into any serious relationships with any of them - if a first date translates to wedding cake, then the "Jolene's" in this world have problems that aren't necessarily yours to deal with.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 03:04 PM
breakaway I would love to hear what you think Tristan should do to get his wife back. I'm not attacking you, it's an honest question I'm asking here. You've mentioned tristan's wife's emotional state and mental health issues so we know you're a little concerned about her and that's cool, Tristan loves her and being concerned & compassionate towards her isn't a bad thing, it's definitely a good thing. My question is, what divorce busting techniques should Tristan be using right now with the goal of getting his wife back?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 03:16 PM
Actually robx (I like robx), I read your entire thread and I don't think I ever saw that you did date anyone else. I know you contemplated it. Did you date others? When? What happened?
Originally Posted By: tristan
So would binviting single moms over for playdates (for the children I mean) be considered dating?


tristan was the first one to suggest this!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 03:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: tristan
So would binviting single moms over for playdates (for the children I mean) be considered dating?


tristan was the first one to suggest this!


And have decided against it for the reasons stated above.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 04:40 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Actually robx (I like robx), I read your entire thread and I don't think I ever saw that you did date anyone else. I know you contemplated it. Did you date others? When? What happened?


I haven't updated that thing forever, after a while I just got so invested in monitoring all the other threads that I rarely had time to update my own.

Yes I dated, I dated several women, it was the most terrifying and exhilarating process all at the same time LOL! It has been many years since I had "dated" anyone, the first one was difficult and they became progressively easier as time passed on until I became a "pro" at it (for lack of a better word). I used online services, I dated old friends of my wife that apparently had been interested in me and popped out of the woodwork when news of our separation became "public" information. I was never intimate with any of them but a few of them were quite "hungry" and vocal about it (especially one of my wife's friends who was going through a divorce at the time). I can't say the boost to the ego wasn't appreciated, it was. I had done a 180 in my life, picked myself up, started going to the gym, pushing some heavy iron (I had done this years ago when I first started seeing my wife) and my muscles responded well, having a bit of memory to this process, I lost a ton of weight, I felt great, I ate healthy, shopped for new clothes, cropped the 'do, seriously I walked around feeling like I was a million bucks, I still feel that way - it's awesome. The dates were usually one time things but a few of them progressed to 2nd & 3rd dates but I knew enough to stop it at the point and I made it clear to the other person after the first or second date that the "chemistry wasn't there" but it was a good experience, most if not all of them told me to look them up again if I ever changed my mind. I really opened my eyes to the whole single scene, there are LOTS of women out there and based on the feedback I rec'd and personal observation, I wasn't just OK, I was a really decent catch - I actually got pooped after a while, the single life is busy when you're dating, working full time, parenting and having joint custody (and actually I pretty much have near full custody at this point, I'd say I have them 80% of the time now if not more). Women were impressed that I was a single dad, working full time, being successful, looking good and keeping busy. It was my vibe, it was my attitude, even when I told them that the chemistry wasn't there, I didn't turn them off, if anything and this is the weird part, they continued calling & emailing afterwards when I said that, I had never been in the position to be pursued, it was awkward & funny to say the least, sometimes I would just smile to myself. I don't look for external validation but I can see why some people get off on it, if feels really good - however I made sure to realize internally that external validation/attention from others wouldn't be the source for my great self-esteem, I was responsible for that and in taking that power, I pretty much removed anyone's ability to make me feel bad. Control is an illusion for the most part, you can't control people, if you try, they rebel. You can't control the weather, etc. You can control your actions through conscious choices and there is alot of power in that.

Anyways back to the story of dating, I was dating alot, and one of my wife's friends who doesn't live locally anymore (she wasn't even in the city at the time either) heard from a friend of hers through the grapevine that I was dating other women. WOW! All I can say is news like that spreads faster than wildfire! My wife found out and she flipped and I thought it was funny. All along she had been doing "her thing", enjoying the single life, going to clubs/bars/parties, hanging out with men, a couple in particular she was having fun with all along treating me with so much disrespect and I just put my foot down and I wouldn't be the lovestruck sucker waiting for my wife to snap out of it. I actually thank my wife's friend, I know those girls love to gossip, it was always one of my pet peeves about her group of friends, they get together and talk about everyone, so when news of me dating got out, IT GOT OUT! LOL!

She was angry, angrier than you could (or I could) imagine and then after the anger came this huge reversal of roles, I stopped pursuing her, enjoying my life, dating other women, having a great time (and no, there were no sexy time explosions, this was all done according to a plan that I finally had the balls to implement), she started pursuing me, rationalizing with me, calling me, asking for another chance, talking about marriage counselling, playing the guilt card:
"I thought you loved me"
"I thought you said you would wait forever"
"I'm sorry for treating you so badly"
"those guys never meant anything"
"but I love you"
"I don't know what I was doing, I was crazy"
"What about our kids?"
"We're married, we should try harder"
"I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I mean it, I'm really sorry"
- cry, weep, weep, wash, rinse, repeat

I saw myself in her at that point,
trying to rationalize, trying to argue, scared, in a crisis, the fear of loss generated when the person you love doesn't want to be with you anymore, the pleading, begging, etc. It was unattractive, honestly when this was happening, it was repulsive, I took a step back and thought to myself, "was I like this?"

Where am I now?
She comes over regularly, sleeps over regularly, she asks to go out all the time, coffee, dinner, movies, the beach, walks in the park, we should go on a trip, etc. etc.

Where was this person before all of this? Why couldn't she just love me as I was? I don't know. Maybe on some level she realized that I didn't feel that great about myself and she mirrored that. As much as we think love conquers all, it doesn't. You have to make that relationship into what you want it to be, you can't will it to be that way. It requires work, it requires personal development and when one of you strays, it requires double duty on your part to improve and then show them what they're going to lose because just as the possibility exists to lose your spouse, the flipside is they can lose you: the fear of loss, the crisis, this is what moves people to action. Otherwise what would be the impetus for anyone to change in this specific situation? Buying them roses every other day won't work. Buying them gifts isn't going to work. Giving them everything they want doesn't work. It communicates that you by yourself aren't good enough to be with them so you have to supplement you with gifts & goodies just to be on the same level and that's just bull$hit (pardon my french) because you communicate that to them and train them & yourself to believe it.

When she had lost all respect for me because I let her push past all of my boundaries and treat me horribly, she couldn't love me anymore. When she did something wrong, I kept my mouth shut without saying "hey when you did this, it was wrong, it hurt me/bothered me, smarten up, it's disrespectful". Without respect, there is no love - I know this to be 100% true. My wife respects me now, and I don't make it easy on her either because we're not back yet and when we are back i know it will be because of the work I put into myself and the actions I took to get us here: I paved & led the way because that's where I wanted to be and i knew that no one else would bring me there except for me. I bust her on pretty much every crap behavior she exhibits when it's called for, if she has attitude and starts to push me (and I look for these tests now, I can see them now where as before I never saw them), I call her on it, call her a brat, tell her that her temper tantrums may work on other people but i'm not impressed, I tell her she's unattractive when she gets angry, I don't argue with her and tell her that arguing immaturely with me is very disrespectful. When she is moody and quiet, I tell her to speak up because as much as I can be understanding & compassionate, I also know that if you let them brew in their silence, they fester and get angry. Spill the beans, you don't like something say so, if it's within my power to do something about this, I would rather change & improve something instead of wondering what I should do. Speak up and I'll respect you more for your honesty and I will not respect you if you are silent and not communicative about any issue you have problems with! She pays for marriage counselling that we go to, I told her that if it's worth it to her, she'll show it. I am respectful of her, she is the mother of my children and I do love her but I won't go back to being that person that supplicated her and enabled all those crap behaviors to begin with because I realize that I have to take responsibility for my role in all of this. I also don't want the relationship I had with her, I want something new & better otherwise what's the point? I care for her, I want to be excited about her, after this type of process and the time that goes with it, it's a struggle and I have to remember the work & effort that was put into all of this.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 04:45 PM
another eye opener through this whole process,
everything is counter intuitive.

I had to do the opposite of what I thought was the right thing to do to get the response from my wife that I wanted.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: tristan
So would binviting single moms over for playdates (for the children I mean) be considered dating?


tristan was the first one to suggest this!


And have decided against it for the reasons stated above.


You can date without involving your kids and without, as Rob so eloquently put it, "sexy time explosions"...

Playdates with single moms are fine IMO if the kids are friends and you are doing it without an agenda...But, given your sitch, it could get iffy.
Posted By: v1olin Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 05:01 PM
Wow! Rob, what a great post!
I second that - great post robx.

I am learning that all this is so true. My W lost respect for me somewhere along the way while she built up a bunch of anger and resentment at the same time. I started to realize how I looked in her eyes as compared to the OM and I didn't measure up even though he is a low-life POS predator, etc etc. In her eyes he was her savior, while I groveled for her love and affection begging her to re-commit to the marriage.

I see every 'newcomer' coming to this site doing the same thing for the most part and I hope that they can gather up the strength ASAP to reverse this behavior. The longer it goes on, the more damage it does I think but it may be recoverable.
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: tristan
Actually robx (I like robx), I read your entire thread and I don't think I ever saw that you did date anyone else. I know you contemplated it. Did you date others? When? What happened?


I haven't updated that thing forever, after a while I just got so invested in monitoring all the other threads that I rarely had time to update my own.

Yes I dated, I dated several women, it was the most terrifying and exhilarating process all at the same time LOL! It has been many years since I had "dated" anyone, the first one was difficult and they became progressively easier as time passed on until I became a "pro" at it (for lack of a better word). I used online services, I dated old friends of my wife that apparently had been interested in me and popped out of the woodwork when news of our separation became "public" information. I was never intimate with any of them but a few of them were quite "hungry" and vocal about it (especially one of my wife's friends who was going through a divorce at the time). I can't say the boost to the ego wasn't appreciated, it was. I had done a 180 in my life, picked myself up, started going to the gym, pushing some heavy iron (I had done this years ago when I first started seeing my wife) and my muscles responded well, having a bit of memory to this process, I lost a ton of weight, I felt great, I ate healthy, shopped for new clothes, cropped the 'do, seriously I walked around feeling like I was a million bucks, I still feel that way - it's awesome. The dates were usually one time things but a few of them progressed to 2nd & 3rd dates but I knew enough to stop it at the point and I made it clear to the other person after the first or second date that the "chemistry wasn't there" but it was a good experience, most if not all of them told me to look them up again if I ever changed my mind. I really opened my eyes to the whole single scene, there are LOTS of women out there and based on the feedback I rec'd and personal observation, I wasn't just OK, I was a really decent catch - I actually got pooped after a while, the single life is busy when you're dating, working full time, parenting and having joint custody (and actually I pretty much have near full custody at this point, I'd say I have them 80% of the time now if not more). Women were impressed that I was a single dad, working full time, being successful, looking good and keeping busy. It was my vibe, it was my attitude, even when I told them that the chemistry wasn't there, I didn't turn them off, if anything and this is the weird part, they continued calling & emailing afterwards when I said that, I had never been in the position to be pursued, it was awkward & funny to say the least, sometimes I would just smile to myself. I don't look for external validation but I can see why some people get off on it, if feels really good - however I made sure to realize internally that external validation/attention from others wouldn't be the source for my great self-esteem, I was responsible for that and in taking that power, I pretty much removed anyone's ability to make me feel bad. Control is an illusion for the most part, you can't control people, if you try, they rebel. You can't control the weather, etc. You can control your actions through conscious choices and there is alot of power in that.

Anyways back to the story of dating, I was dating alot, and one of my wife's friends who doesn't live locally anymore (she wasn't even in the city at the time either) heard from a friend of hers through the grapevine that I was dating other women. WOW! All I can say is news like that spreads faster than wildfire! My wife found out and she flipped and I thought it was funny. All along she had been doing "her thing", enjoying the single life, going to clubs/bars/parties, hanging out with men, a couple in particular she was having fun with all along treating me with so much disrespect and I just put my foot down and I wouldn't be the lovestruck sucker waiting for my wife to snap out of it. I actually thank my wife's friend, I know those girls love to gossip, it was always one of my pet peeves about her group of friends, they get together and talk about everyone, so when news of me dating got out, IT GOT OUT! LOL!

She was angry, angrier than you could (or I could) imagine and then after the anger came this huge reversal of roles, I stopped pursuing her, enjoying my life, dating other women, having a great time (and no, there were no sexy time explosions, this was all done according to a plan that I finally had the balls to implement), she started pursuing me, rationalizing with me, calling me, asking for another chance, talking about marriage counselling, playing the guilt card:
"I thought you loved me"
"I thought you said you would wait forever"
"I'm sorry for treating you so badly"
"those guys never meant anything"
"but I love you"
"I don't know what I was doing, I was crazy"
"What about our kids?"
"We're married, we should try harder"
"I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I mean it, I'm really sorry"
- cry, weep, weep, wash, rinse, repeat

I saw myself in her at that point,
trying to rationalize, trying to argue, scared, in a crisis, the fear of loss generated when the person you love doesn't want to be with you anymore, the pleading, begging, etc. It was unattractive, honestly when this was happening, it was repulsive, I took a step back and thought to myself, "was I like this?"

Where am I now?
She comes over regularly, sleeps over regularly, she asks to go out all the time, coffee, dinner, movies, the beach, walks in the park, we should go on a trip, etc. etc.

Where was this person before all of this? Why couldn't she just love me as I was? I don't know. Maybe on some level she realized that I didn't feel that great about myself and she mirrored that. As much as we think love conquers all, it doesn't. You have to make that relationship into what you want it to be, you can't will it to be that way. It requires work, it requires personal development and when one of you strays, it requires double duty on your part to improve and then show them what they're going to lose because just as the possibility exists to lose your spouse, the flipside is they can lose you: the fear of loss, the crisis, this is what moves people to action. Otherwise what would be the impetus for anyone to change in this specific situation? Buying them roses every other day won't work. Buying them gifts isn't going to work. Giving them everything they want doesn't work. It communicates that you by yourself aren't good enough to be with them so you have to supplement you with gifts & goodies just to be on the same level and that's just bull$hit (pardon my french) because you communicate that to them and train them & yourself to believe it.

When she had lost all respect for me because I let her push past all of my boundaries and treat me horribly, she couldn't love me anymore. When she did something wrong, I kept my mouth shut without saying "hey when you did this, it was wrong, it hurt me/bothered me, smarten up, it's disrespectful". Without respect, there is no love - I know this to be 100% true. My wife respects me now, and I don't make it easy on her either because we're not back yet and when we are back i know it will be because of the work I put into myself and the actions I took to get us here: I paved & led the way because that's where I wanted to be and i knew that no one else would bring me there except for me. I bust her on pretty much every crap behavior she exhibits when it's called for, if she has attitude and starts to push me (and I look for these tests now, I can see them now where as before I never saw them), I call her on it, call her a brat, tell her that her temper tantrums may work on other people but i'm not impressed, I tell her she's unattractive when she gets angry, I don't argue with her and tell her that arguing immaturely with me is very disrespectful. When she is moody and quiet, I tell her to speak up because as much as I can be understanding & compassionate, I also know that if you let them brew in their silence, they fester and get angry. Spill the beans, you don't like something say so, if it's within my power to do something about this, I would rather change & improve something instead of wondering what I should do. Speak up and I'll respect you more for your honesty and I will not respect you if you are silent and not communicative about any issue you have problems with! She pays for marriage counselling that we go to, I told her that if it's worth it to her, she'll show it. I am respectful of her, she is the mother of my children and I do love her but I won't go back to being that person that supplicated her and enabled all those crap behaviors to begin with because I realize that I have to take responsibility for my role in all of this. I also don't want the relationship I had with her, I want something new & better otherwise what's the point? I care for her, I want to be excited about her, after this type of process and the time that goes with it, it's a struggle and I have to remember the work & effort that was put into all of this.



whistle whistle whistle whistle
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: tristan
So would binviting single moms over for playdates (for the children I mean) be considered dating?


tristan was the first one to suggest this!


And have decided against it for the reasons stated above.


What? that it might be the most successful technique to bust your separation?

If my extreme example offends you, well, this thread needs an extreme example. Everytime I read this situation, I am reminded of your first post and this comment:
Quote:
So my problem is this: I know she still talks to the OM daily (often 2 or 3 times). I am suspicious (but can not confirm) that she has seen him a couple of times over the past 2 weeks as well. After she crashed because of the allergic reaction, I was giving her a pass on the OM (she was essentually a mental mess). However, I know this EA has to end before we can fully heal. Since I have stopped talking about the OM, things have been getting better.

Giving your wife a "pass" to carry on an affair because of an allergic reaction? That to me seems EXTREME! That doesn't work. What did it get you? She moved out a month later. Its pretty naive to think your kids wont be introduced to this OM in the near future. At least she will have a few "dates" under her belt beforehand. 'wacko nut burger. ' jeez.

I dont remember suggesting you get romantically involved with someone and introduce her to your kids as their new step-mother. And I fail to see how one or a few social interactions means "it" inevitably has to work out. "It" usually doesn't. I didn't think that was the goal here. Rather your wife needs a wake up call. 2 years is an awfully long time to carry on a Emotional/'kissing' affair with someone all the while stringing you along. I taught your play date idea was a very good one. One that would work in your situation. Maybe I shouldnt have said Red Robin. That ruined it I quess. It must convey that you are having sex without protection and trying for children. It doesnt matter it was an extreme example to convey an important point. What matters is that you have the tools in front of you; you need to use them effectively to save your marriage. You can do alot of damage to destroy her fantasy early in this transition, marriage >> separation >> divorce. This new romance and the emotions associated with it need to be conquered even at the expense of seeming immature, juvenile and high schoolish. There are storys of women who travel half-way across the country to cheat on their husbands with Internet chat room partners on this bulletin board. That alone should tell you the power of these emotions and chemicals. By no means would I sit back and watch that happen in my marriage. If someone is to consider me a wacko nut job or immature man for going to extremes to save my marriage. So be it. As long as they are not telling me to sit back patiently while my wife drifts through the 'fog' and wait it out till her lover becomes sexually bored with her. (put nicely).

I am trying to emphasize to you not to!

Steve McQueen.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 07:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: tristan
Actually robx (I like robx), I read your entire thread and I don't think I ever saw that you did date anyone else. I know you contemplated it. Did you date others? When? What happened?


I haven't updated that thing forever, after a while I just got so invested in monitoring all the other threads that I rarely had time to update my own.

Yes I dated, I dated several women, it was the most terrifying and exhilarating process all at the same time LOL! It has been many years since I had "dated" anyone, the first one was difficult and they became progressively easier as time passed on until I became a "pro" at it (for lack of a better word). I used online services, I dated old friends of my wife that apparently had been interested in me and popped out of the woodwork when news of our separation became "public" information. I was never intimate with any of them but a few of them were quite "hungry" and vocal about it (especially one of my wife's friends who was going through a divorce at the time). I can't say the boost to the ego wasn't appreciated, it was. I had done a 180 in my life, picked myself up, started going to the gym, pushing some heavy iron (I had done this years ago when I first started seeing my wife) and my muscles responded well, having a bit of memory to this process, I lost a ton of weight, I felt great, I ate healthy, shopped for new clothes, cropped the 'do, seriously I walked around feeling like I was a million bucks, I still feel that way - it's awesome. The dates were usually one time things but a few of them progressed to 2nd & 3rd dates but I knew enough to stop it at the point and I made it clear to the other person after the first or second date that the "chemistry wasn't there" but it was a good experience, most if not all of them told me to look them up again if I ever changed my mind. I really opened my eyes to the whole single scene, there are LOTS of women out there and based on the feedback I rec'd and personal observation, I wasn't just OK, I was a really decent catch - I actually got pooped after a while, the single life is busy when you're dating, working full time, parenting and having joint custody (and actually I pretty much have near full custody at this point, I'd say I have them 80% of the time now if not more). Women were impressed that I was a single dad, working full time, being successful, looking good and keeping busy. It was my vibe, it was my attitude, even when I told them that the chemistry wasn't there, I didn't turn them off, if anything and this is the weird part, they continued calling & emailing afterwards when I said that, I had never been in the position to be pursued, it was awkward & funny to say the least, sometimes I would just smile to myself. I don't look for external validation but I can see why some people get off on it, if feels really good - however I made sure to realize internally that external validation/attention from others wouldn't be the source for my great self-esteem, I was responsible for that and in taking that power, I pretty much removed anyone's ability to make me feel bad. Control is an illusion for the most part, you can't control people, if you try, they rebel. You can't control the weather, etc. You can control your actions through conscious choices and there is alot of power in that.

Anyways back to the story of dating, I was dating alot, and one of my wife's friends who doesn't live locally anymore (she wasn't even in the city at the time either) heard from a friend of hers through the grapevine that I was dating other women. WOW! All I can say is news like that spreads faster than wildfire! My wife found out and she flipped and I thought it was funny. All along she had been doing "her thing", enjoying the single life, going to clubs/bars/parties, hanging out with men, a couple in particular she was having fun with all along treating me with so much disrespect and I just put my foot down and I wouldn't be the lovestruck sucker waiting for my wife to snap out of it. I actually thank my wife's friend, I know those girls love to gossip, it was always one of my pet peeves about her group of friends, they get together and talk about everyone, so when news of me dating got out, IT GOT OUT! LOL!

She was angry, angrier than you could (or I could) imagine and then after the anger came this huge reversal of roles, I stopped pursuing her, enjoying my life, dating other women, having a great time (and no, there were no sexy time explosions, this was all done according to a plan that I finally had the balls to implement), she started pursuing me, rationalizing with me, calling me, asking for another chance, talking about marriage counselling, playing the guilt card:
"I thought you loved me"
"I thought you said you would wait forever"
"I'm sorry for treating you so badly"
"those guys never meant anything"
"but I love you"
"I don't know what I was doing, I was crazy"
"What about our kids?"
"We're married, we should try harder"
"I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I mean it, I'm really sorry"
- cry, weep, weep, wash, rinse, repeat

I saw myself in her at that point,
trying to rationalize, trying to argue, scared, in a crisis, the fear of loss generated when the person you love doesn't want to be with you anymore, the pleading, begging, etc. It was unattractive, honestly when this was happening, it was repulsive, I took a step back and thought to myself, "was I like this?"

Where am I now?
She comes over regularly, sleeps over regularly, she asks to go out all the time, coffee, dinner, movies, the beach, walks in the park, we should go on a trip, etc. etc.

Where was this person before all of this? Why couldn't she just love me as I was? I don't know. Maybe on some level she realized that I didn't feel that great about myself and she mirrored that. As much as we think love conquers all, it doesn't. You have to make that relationship into what you want it to be, you can't will it to be that way. It requires work, it requires personal development and when one of you strays, it requires double duty on your part to improve and then show them what they're going to lose because just as the possibility exists to lose your spouse, the flipside is they can lose you: the fear of loss, the crisis, this is what moves people to action. Otherwise what would be the impetus for anyone to change in this specific situation? Buying them roses every other day won't work. Buying them gifts isn't going to work. Giving them everything they want doesn't work. It communicates that you by yourself aren't good enough to be with them so you have to supplement you with gifts & goodies just to be on the same level and that's just bull$hit (pardon my french) because you communicate that to them and train them & yourself to believe it.

When she had lost all respect for me because I let her push past all of my boundaries and treat me horribly, she couldn't love me anymore. When she did something wrong, I kept my mouth shut without saying "hey when you did this, it was wrong, it hurt me/bothered me, smarten up, it's disrespectful". Without respect, there is no love - I know this to be 100% true. My wife respects me now, and I don't make it easy on her either because we're not back yet and when we are back i know it will be because of the work I put into myself and the actions I took to get us here: I paved & led the way because that's where I wanted to be and i knew that no one else would bring me there except for me. I bust her on pretty much every crap behavior she exhibits when it's called for, if she has attitude and starts to push me (and I look for these tests now, I can see them now where as before I never saw them), I call her on it, call her a brat, tell her that her temper tantrums may work on other people but i'm not impressed, I tell her she's unattractive when she gets angry, I don't argue with her and tell her that arguing immaturely with me is very disrespectful. When she is moody and quiet, I tell her to speak up because as much as I can be understanding & compassionate, I also know that if you let them brew in their silence, they fester and get angry. Spill the beans, you don't like something say so, if it's within my power to do something about this, I would rather change & improve something instead of wondering what I should do. Speak up and I'll respect you more for your honesty and I will not respect you if you are silent and not communicative about any issue you have problems with! She pays for marriage counselling that we go to, I told her that if it's worth it to her, she'll show it. I am respectful of her, she is the mother of my children and I do love her but I won't go back to being that person that supplicated her and enabled all those crap behaviors to begin with because I realize that I have to take responsibility for my role in all of this. I also don't want the relationship I had with her, I want something new & better otherwise what's the point? I care for her, I want to be excited about her, after this type of process and the time that goes with it, it's a struggle and I have to remember the work & effort that was put into all of this.



whistle whistle whistle whistle


Nice! The much coveted Puppy Four Whistle Award.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 08:05 PM
Does anyone know what Coach's view of dating in this situation is? Does he think that it is the only way to save the marriage?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 08:06 PM
Perhaps that cross-post just answered my question.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/16/09 08:27 PM
No, I don't agree with dating while you are married. I think the swagger/mojo/confidence/groove/vibe/attitude that you give off is paramount and you can't get there with detaching. You can create lot's of mystery that is healthy, moral and ethical. You have to get to place in your mind that you don't need your WAS to go forward, you want them but you will thrive regardless. So it is a mindset. I understand what RobX is saying, I see the value in it. You would have to decide what dating is vs just hanging out. You would need boundaries that were transparent to be comfortable to do it if you wanted.

The Puppy Four Whistles is like seeing a unicorn or BigFoot or the Loch Ness Monster. I thought it was just a myth but it's for real. cool
Posted By: C-Bart Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 01:22 AM
Thanks Coach! I'm glad to hear a different opinion. I've always thought that dating when you were M was wrong but I think my opinion is in the minority. I think there is allot of bad that can come out of adding a third or forth dimension to an already strained R. Not arguing if it is effective in the short term as jealousy can be very powerful. What troubles me is it is very manipulative among other things.
Posted By: jstv Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 01:23 AM
I'm new here and not sure how to post my story...sorry if wrong thread
Posted By: C-Bart Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 01:29 AM
Go back to the main newcomers section then hit "new post",
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 03:24 AM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
'wacko nut burger. ' jeez.

I dont remember suggesting you get romantically involved with someone and introduce her to your kids as their new step-mother. And I fail to see how one or a few social interactions means "it" inevitably has to work out. "It" usually doesn't. I didn't think that was the goal here. Rather your wife needs a wake up call.


Hey Steve, I hope you didn't think I was calling you a wacko nutburger LOL! I'm in total agreement with your posts and dating other women to create fear of loss with his wife.

My post was aimed at anyone thinking that dating would mean bring a woman home and introducing them to the kids, I would never do that personally and I don't think anyone should bring their dates home to meet the kids - I don't see any purpose in it.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 03:33 AM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

whistle whistle whistle whistle


Thanks bro, that means alot coming from you!
Who knew my long winded verbose posts would end up winning me the coveted 4 whistle award from Puppy?
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 03:38 AM
Originally Posted By: C-Bart
Thanks Coach! I'm glad to hear a different opinion. I've always thought that dating when you were M was wrong but I think my opinion is in the minority. I think there is allot of bad that can come out of adding a third or forth dimension to an already strained R. Not arguing if it is effective in the short term as jealousy can be very powerful. What troubles me is it is very manipulative among other things.


it's also counter intuitive along with so many things that need to be done to get your spouse to rethink what they're doing. Buying them gifts won't get them to change their mind, being nice to them won't do it either. What's the message you communicate to the WAS when they're having an affair with another person and while they're doing this, you're super nice to them. Personally I think it communicates "Hi I'm a pea brain, I'll be nice to you even though you walk all over me like a door mat and are actively cheating on me and not even hiding it anymore"

Counter intuitive.

Do something that is the opposite of what you were thinking of doing.

Buying gifts > don't buy anything for them.
Call them regularly > don't call them at all, in fact go silent for 3-4 weeks if possible, I mean really dark.
Sit at home & wait for them > go out and date other people

The list goes on & on.

Counter intuitive - do the opposite.
They expect you to try & win them back by using wimpy, wussy behavior and supplicating them/enabling them and their crap behaviors - that isn't attractive and it certainly doesn't command respect.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 04:29 AM
Journaling:

Today W and I had our normal dispatch of e-mails:

-------------------------------------------------
Hi,

How are you? Hope you are ok. Just wanted to remind you of PTA today at 6:30.

Could you please tell me how are the girls??

I will pick them up today and go straight to PTA. Hope to see you there.

W

--------------------------------------------

Sorry, I was getting to that. The girls were good. D5 drew an amazing self-portrait in art class. She says it is “perfect” and the best one in class. I put it up on the refrigerator. We called grandma last night to say happy birthday. D3 ended up in my bed again last night, I didn’t realize she was there until this morning. I was hoping to take them tonight to make up for Friday. But if you want to take them, it is your night. I am planning on going to the PTA meeting. Thank you for the reminder and switching nights with me, I appreciate it.

Tristan

----------------------------------------------

I had already told D5 I was going to pick her up today and want to be consistent… I am glad to hear you guys had a nice evening.

PS
Could you please bring me my beads and stuff??

Thanks,
W

--------------------------------------------------------
I still have the carseat in the Jeep. I will be back around 6. Will that work for you?
--------------------------------------------------------
Ok. I will be at daycare.
--------------------------------------------------------


I arrive at daycare to greet girls. W is there and we say hi, not much more. She has straightened her hair; it looks good; but I don't say anything. Daycare provider talks to us about what she will be doing with D3 this year (orchestra, dance & playhouse); it's a lot of culture for a 3 yr old.

W: "Would you like to walk to the PTA meeting?"
M: "Sure."

We walk somewhat together, but not normally next to each other and neither of us says much. We talked a little about how quickly the summer went after D3 starts picking up leaves that have already started to change color.

Once at the school, I take the girls to the room with the kids while W goes straight to the meeting. D3 doesn't want me to go immediately so I stay with her for approximately 5 minutes before heading back to the meeting. W has saved me a seat next to her. Towards the end of the meeting they have us go around the table and introduce ourselves. Most were saying their names and where they live; which I do. W instead says that she is my wife and leaves out the fact that she lives in a different house.

As we are walking back, W mentions she would like to see D5's self portrait. We get back to her car, she unlocks it and starts opening the door.
M: "You're welcome to come in and look at the picture if you like.
W: "Really."
M: "Yes."
W: "OK."

It is the first time W has been in house since she left a week ago. She sits down on the couch and D5 runs to get the picture. W is amazed by the picture as well. She looks at me with this very proud look and congratulates D5. She hangs around a little longer. I walk them out to the car.

D5: "Daddy, I wish we all lived together again."
M: "Mmmm"
D5: "I wish mommy moved back here."
<silence>
We start strapping the girls in the car.
D3: "Mommy, why are you crying. Are you sad?"
W: "Just a little bit."
M: "OK girls. Buenes noches. Te amo."
D3: "Daddy you sit here." - pointing to the passenger seat
D5: "Are you coming daddy?"
M: "No, I'm sorry girls."
As I start walking away
M: "Have a good night."
W: "Can we talk?"
M: "Hmmm"
W: "Can we talk tonight?"
M: "You can call. You can always call."
W: "OK"

After they left I went for a quick (or not so quick anymore) 4 mile run.

W called later.
M: "Hello"
W: "Hi"
<silence>
M: "Sooo how are you?"
W: "I'm having a hard time."
<silence>
M: "I'm sorry."
<silence>
W: "So how are you doing?"
M: "It's hard to say."

From there I don't remember much, but we talked for over a half hour. Below are the snippets I remember.

W: "I have been meditating a lot. I have been praying a lot. And I just felt the need to talk to you."
M: "Well I can listen. I can always listen. I'm not sure I can be much of a conversationalist tonight."
...

<silence> - there were many moments of silence in the call
M: "So did you learn anything new today."
<silence>
W: "It hit me like a ton of bricks that I really miss my family. You know D5 is a very smart girl."
M: "Yes she is."
W: "Tonight she told me she was missing you. I told her that I could get you on the phone. She said that won't help, that she wanted you here. Then she told me that it was the worst day ever. D3 fell down and she was crying for daddy."
...
W: "I am a piece of sh__, everything I touch gets ruined."
M: "You need to take care of yourself."
W: "I am. Are you saying that because you want to get off the phone?"
M: "No. I'm listening."
W: "Thank you for listening. You were always a good listener."

We talked about other lighter things as well. How her job was going. Whether my brother is gay. etc. It was nice to talk to her. We both said we missed that.

It is getting late. I need to sleep on all of this.
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 07:05 AM
wow. your wife sounds like she might come around. and you're doing a great job playing it cool. expect a backlash; she's likely to step away from the way she was tonight.

let it all be on her.

i love your journaling, by the way. you have a great ear for dialogue. good narrative structure too. are you a writer or have you considered writing anything?
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
'wacko nut burger. ' jeez.

I dont remember suggesting you get romantically involved with someone and introduce her to your kids as their new step-mother. And I fail to see how one or a few social interactions means "it" inevitably has to work out. "It" usually doesn't. I didn't think that was the goal here. Rather your wife needs a wake up call.


Hey Steve, I hope you didn't think I was calling you a wacko nutburger LOL! I'm in total agreement with your posts and dating other women to create fear of loss with his wife.

My post was aimed at anyone thinking that dating would mean bring a woman home and introducing them to the kids, I would never do that personally and I don't think anyone should bring their dates home to meet the kids - I don't see any purpose in it.



Well this is what he SAID.

Hitting the "jealousy button" would be a winning option in your situation. Imagine this scenerio:

daughter: Mommy we got new friends.
wife: oh really?
daughter: yeah, Daddy's friend Jolene has 2 girls too, we go to the park, and for ice cream, they come over and watch movies and we went out to red robins for dinner friday night and we stayed up past midnight playing.
wife: oh! $hit. this isnt what i planned for. it didnt take him little over a week to come up with a plan to move on with his life after I walked out on him. and this other guy his feet smell.


Which translates to me as "Guess what, Mommy, Daddy is using us as pawns to tell you about his new girlfriend and kids so you'll get jealous and come home!!! I can't wait to tell my therapist when I grow up!!!"
Originally Posted By: robx
breakaway I would love to hear what you think Tristan should do to get his wife back. I'm not attacking you, it's an honest question I'm asking here. You've mentioned tristan's wife's emotional state and mental health issues so we know you're a little concerned about her and that's cool, Tristan loves her and being concerned & compassionate towards her isn't a bad thing, it's definitely a good thing. My question is, what divorce busting techniques should Tristan be using right now with the goal of getting his wife back?


I think he should listen to Coach. Because he managed to apply DB principles and still maintain integrity and class, imo. And he DID get his wife back and currently has a successful marriage, and he knows how to be both humble AND self-confident.

My earlier comments at the beginning of this thread were, and remain, that whatever advice is given on this forum, tristan also needs a copious amount of professional advice in dealing with a mentally disturbed spouse.

I don't have time to follow every twist and turn or to comment, I don't even have time to comment on my own sitch.
Originally Posted By: robx
[quote=C-Bart]
Do something that is the opposite of what you were thinking of doing.

Buying gifts > don't buy anything for them.
Call them regularly > don't call them at all, in fact go silent for 3-4 weeks if possible, I mean really dark.
Sit at home & wait for them > go out and date other people



I think we all agree that sitting at home and waiting for them is not what to do, but this site is filled with examples of people GAL and piquing their spouse's interest without going as far as dating other people. It's a continuum, not "either or"

People who don't advocate dating are NOT saying stay home and wait for them. People who don't advocate everything you say are not saying just give up. There seems to be a propensity in your comments to take any disagreement and extrapolate it into the most extreme opposite of what you said, when that was neither said or implied.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 01:03 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: tristan
Actually robx (I like robx), I read your entire thread and I don't think I ever saw that you did date anyone else. I know you contemplated it. Did you date others? When? What happened?


I haven't updated that thing forever, after a while I just got so invested in monitoring all the other threads that I rarely had time to update my own.


Thank you Rob. I was thinking about all this last night. And we may be talking about semantics now, but I think I can make W see that I am willing to move on with my life without dating. I have always shyed away from women (especially attractive ones) since I have been with her. I've done it mainly because I wanted to show her that she filled my needs. Since we have been seperated, I have loosened the reigns on those boundaries. Last night at the PTA meeting, I made it a point to talk more people and I think she noticed.

I am an engineer, so I work with almost all men. Except for the secretary, my office is all men (not being sexist, its the truth). My hobbies were running (alone) and playing soccer (all men). She has had absolutely nothing to worry about with me.

So I don't have to go all the way to dating to make some pretty big changes in my life. I think she will notice my GAL'ing. And I think it can have a similiar effect on her as dating would. Plus, I can do it without feeling guilty.

I appreciate your responses and take them to heart. It was a great post.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Look at why you were attracted to someone like your wife in the first place. Not just everyone is attracted to borderline type women.


Hi breakaway.

Is there a reason you used borderline here instead of bipolar? Have you been following this thread?

Just wondering
- T


You said back at the beginning that your counselor thought she had BPD tendencies, but the psych didn't. bipolar can get better with meds, borderline won't, because it's a personality disorder. So time will tell you a lot. She could be both.

The last thing I'm going to say about this is, is that there is such a thing as winning the battle and losing the war. I think it's a colossal waste of time and energy to engage in dating as a way to get your wife to come home, as a manipulative tactic. Because that's all it would be.

If she's borderline...then, yes, jealousy would probably work like a charm, because if you've been studying that, that it is a hot button for them, they can be irrationally jealous and terrified of abandonment regardless of their own abandoning types of behavior. So you could probably activate that fear and bring her home. So f**king what? That's all it would be.

Then I guess you could be like some guys and lord it over her and keep that fear going all the time that you are a great catch, she's not really worthy of, and she always stands to lose you and she'd better know her place in the relationship. You could probably even make her pay for the marriage counseling if you worked it just right. wink That sounds great, doesn't it?

A borderline comes home from jealousy?? That's like getting a dog to come home because it's hungry. Whoopteedoo. You've solved nothing. That's just a kneejerk reaction to her deepseated insecurity. Then it's just a matter of time until it happens again.

I believe a comment was made somewhere that this technique worked "to get my wife to do what I wanted." Well...if that's the kind of person you are.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 01:12 PM
Originally Posted By: ryepatch
i love your journaling, by the way. you have a great ear for dialogue. good narrative structure too. are you a writer or have you considered writing anything?


Ryepatch. Thank you much for the compliment. I am an engineer; math was my subject. I never enjoyed nor did well in writing. However, I have found it soothing to do it here.

I believe my lack of writing skills is the reason I try to recollect the dialogue. Its easier to just write down the phrases that were said than trying to describe the jist of the conversation.

Anyway, thank you. You have made my day.
Posted By: pigskin Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 01:29 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway


The last thing I'm going to say about this is, is that there is such a thing as winning the battle and losing the war.

So you could probably activate that fear and bring her home. So f**king what? That's all it would be.


Then it's just a matter of time until it happens again.





Nice post, breakaway. I follow tristan's thread because my wife has depression that she is taking meds for, and she also has an OM, so our situations are similar excepting that my W still lives with me and sleeps in the same bed.

I agree that anything that brings a spouse back for any reason other than they want to be with you is probably kicking the problem further down the road. I think of things all the time to tell my wife in order to "force" her back with me. Most of them I keep to myself but occasionally I slip.

My take is that I don't want my wife to stay with me for any other reason than the fact that she wants to be here. Not the kids, not the hideous logistics of divorce, not friends and family telling her she's insane. Otherwise, I will be dealing with this situation again in the future.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 02:48 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Originally Posted By: robx
[quote=C-Bart]
Do something that is the opposite of what you were thinking of doing.

Buying gifts > don't buy anything for them.
Call them regularly > don't call them at all, in fact go silent for 3-4 weeks if possible, I mean really dark.
Sit at home & wait for them > go out and date other people



I think we all agree that sitting at home and waiting for them is not what to do, but this site is filled with examples of people GAL and piquing their spouse's interest without going as far as dating other people. It's a continuum, not "either or"

People who don't advocate dating are NOT saying stay home and wait for them. People who don't advocate everything you say are not saying just give up. There seems to be a propensity in your comments to take any disagreement and extrapolate it into the most extreme opposite of what you said, when that was neither said or implied.


I'm sorry but you lost me completely.

?!

All I'm saying in the end is to do things that work and to stop doing things that don't work.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 02:52 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway


Hitting the "jealousy button" would be a winning option in your situation. Imagine this scenerio:

daughter: Mommy we got new friends.
wife: oh really?
daughter: yeah, Daddy's friend Jolene has 2 girls too, we go to the park, and for ice cream, they come over and watch movies and we went out to red robins for dinner friday night and we stayed up past midnight playing.
wife: oh! $hit. this isnt what i planned for. it didnt take him little over a week to come up with a plan to move on with his life after I walked out on him. and this other guy his feet smell.


Which translates to me as "Guess what, Mommy, Daddy is using us as pawns to tell you about his new girlfriend and kids so you'll get jealous and come home!!! I can't wait to tell my therapist when I grow up!!!"




If we have to go back to my wacko nut burger term,
I'm using that with anyone who would actually date someone else and bring them home and introduce them to their children.
I'm reading your example above and i'm trying to figure out in my head why anyone would ever do anything like that.

Why does dating translate to bringing dates home and introducing them to the children? The dating would be for tristan, not his children?! Am I missing something here?

The example that's quoted above and the fairy tale dialogue shown should never happen IMHO. I can't see any logic behind this whatsoever.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 02:54 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Originally Posted By: robx
breakaway I would love to hear what you think Tristan should do to get his wife back. I'm not attacking you, it's an honest question I'm asking here. You've mentioned tristan's wife's emotional state and mental health issues so we know you're a little concerned about her and that's cool, Tristan loves her and being concerned & compassionate towards her isn't a bad thing, it's definitely a good thing. My question is, what divorce busting techniques should Tristan be using right now with the goal of getting his wife back?


I think he should listen to Coach. Because he managed to apply DB principles and still maintain integrity and class, imo. And he DID get his wife back and currently has a successful marriage, and he knows how to be both humble AND self-confident.

My earlier comments at the beginning of this thread were, and remain, that whatever advice is given on this forum, tristan also needs a copious amount of professional advice in dealing with a mentally disturbed spouse.

I don't have time to follow every twist and turn or to comment, I don't even have time to comment on my own sitch.


Coach's situation is a good example but I will add that I don't think in his situation either of them had infidelity issues (physical or emotional affairs with other people).

Tristan's wife is in a relationship with another man.

Apples & Oranges, just my opinion at any rate.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 03:30 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway

You said back at the beginning that your counselor thought she had BPD tendencies, but the psych didn't. bipolar can get better with meds, borderline won't, because it's a personality disorder. So time will tell you a lot. She could be both.

The last thing I'm going to say about this is, is that there is such a thing as winning the battle and losing the war. I think it's a colossal waste of time and energy to engage in dating as a way to get your wife to come home, as a manipulative tactic. Because that's all it would be.

If she's borderline...then, yes, jealousy would probably work like a charm, because if you've been studying that, that it is a hot button for them, they can be irrationally jealous and terrified of abandonment regardless of their own abandoning types of behavior. So you could probably activate that fear and bring her home. So f**king what? That's all it would be.

Then I guess you could be like some guys and lord it over her and keep that fear going all the time that you are a great catch, she's not really worthy of, and she always stands to lose you and she'd better know her place in the relationship. You could probably even make her pay for the marriage counseling if you worked it just right. wink That sounds great, doesn't it?

A borderline comes home from jealousy?? That's like getting a dog to come home because it's hungry. Whoopteedoo. You've solved nothing. That's just a kneejerk reaction to her deepseated insecurity. Then it's just a matter of time until it happens again.

I believe a comment was made somewhere that this technique worked "to get my wife to do what I wanted." Well...if that's the kind of person you are.



I think Tristan has mentioned in his thread that several people all have similar and at the same time differing opinions of what his wife is dealing with in terms of these mental health issues - they haven't just dealt with one person.

It's the symptom of the society we live in, pop this pill, let me know if it works, speak to someone else, get a different pill, same advice, so on & so forth.

As for the comment about what you do when your spouse comes back home... that's when the work starts. If you just plop yourself on the couch, feet up on the ottoman and hands behind the head thinking the job is done, you are mistaken - anyone thinking this is mistaken.

Once the fear of loss is generated and this person starts to question all of their actions and possibly see the damage they've done and want to come back, you just don't let them back that easily. What would be the point of that? They will have to put the effort into resolving their part of this problem as you will. It involves counselling, personal therapy, it involves taking responsibility for your actions and how you contributed to this problem and what you are personally going to do to change things to make this the kind of relationship that is worth holding on to.

If you're not prepared to put the work into this, I would agree, making a wayward spouse jealous to come home only to do nothing after that is a waste of time & effort. Don't even bother if that's what your game plan is.

For my own situation, I realize the mistakes I made and I take responsibility for what I've done and work to improve those things and realize that my journey in life is all about pressing forward, continuing to develop, continuing to realize my untapped potential and there is alot to tap into. As for my wife, that is her journey as well and she is doing more now than I ever would have imagined she would ever put the effort into it. It requires re-establishing trust, setting boundaries, respecting yourself and each other. We have young children and during one discussion/quasi-argument I told her that I didn't want her back just so that our children would have both parents again, if it wasn't real I definitely didn't want it. I also told her that when our children get married and I used my 6 year old son as an example, I said it bluntly, "do you want <son's name> wife cheating on him and disrespecting him and treating him as poorly as you have to me? Do you want her to yell, curse and abuse him the same way? How will he feel when this happens to him? How would you want him to respond if this happens to him? Do you want him to curl up into a little ball and crouch in a corner some where and feel this type of emotional pain, are his feelings worth anything? What are you teaching him when he observes the way you act towards me? " My wife has an answer for everything, she argues better than anyone and always has a way of turning things around, I've joked with her that she could convince someone that the sky isn't blue. She had no response to any of my questions because even if at one point she couldn't care how this was affecting me, she still had that link to how her children can feel pain. She cried for the longest amount of time after this and then apologized to me, it was the first time something like this had ever happened, that was the turning point. I told her that I would teach both of our children to never allow someone to disrespect them, use & abuse them because I don't want my children to have to experience any of this and if unfortunately they ever have to go through this experience, they will have some sort of an education in this area so that they aren't totally unprepared & wiped out as so many people are during this process.

Dating isn't the end all/be all answer to this problem.
It was however one of the many things I've done to turn my situation around from something ugly & hopeless to something positive. Getting respect for yourself from others only happens when you respect yourself and that means you will have to put your foot down, establish boundaries and not only tell people who don't value the relationship they have with you that you will pursue others who would value you, you have to show them. Action will always be more powerful than words. Words without action are just that, just words.

I can't only live a great life for my children, I have to live a great life for myself, my children will learn not only by what I tell them but by my actions. And they will learn to respect themselves, they will learn to let go of people that don't respect them and would hurt them and they will learn to have healthy self-esteems & self-value/self-love and they will be happy by themselves and not require others to make them happy and they will live a happy life, because that's my goal in life.

I have my kids the majority of the time, I would say 80% if not more. I live in our home, I moved my wife out of our home, I bring them to school, pick them up, manage the household: for the most part I'm Mr.Mom and Mr.Dad LOL!

Update on my situation: the other day my wife called me at work, told me she would pick up the kids from school because she was getting off work early and had the time to do it and and asked if she could join us for supper, I said that was fine and I appreciated her help. I came home and was surprised to open the door to the smell of an incredible home cooked meal and I will tell you that hasn't happened in our home for a very long time. I had the children say grace and to include "thanking mommy" for this wonderful supper. I thanked her as well for the great supper. I was especially hungry and smelling that food was incredible and she mentioned a few times she made things a special way because she knew I liked such & such, etc. We had a great evening & night together with great conversation without any relationship talk, just enjoying our time together. We went out for some icecream later and a walk, september is just beautiful, it's like a second summer, I couldn't have pictured a better day with the way it turned out.

I wish every other db'er out there, the same results.
They are obtainable through hard work, determination and knowing how to set goals without focusing on the obstacles along the way.
'wacko nut burger' Actually, I like that term and if I ever massage my wife's feet after she comes home from a date, I am going to change my account name to that.

Redsoxfan is dealing with the above scenerio currently. I think his situation amounts to a bit more than a couple of "play dates" for the children. But his wife is teaching him a pretty good lesson about his Infidelity.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 04:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
'wacko nut burger' Actually, I like that term and if I ever massage my wife's feet after she comes home from a date, I am going to change my account name to that.

Redsoxfan is dealing with the above scenerio currently. I think his situation amounts to a bit more than a couple of "play dates" for the children. But his wife is teaching him a pretty good lesson about his Infidelity.


LOL!
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: breakaway


Hitting the "jealousy button" would be a winning option in your situation. Imagine this scenerio:

daughter: Mommy we got new friends.
wife: oh really?
daughter: yeah, Daddy's friend Jolene has 2 girls too, we go to the park, and for ice cream, they come over and watch movies and we went out to red robins for dinner friday night and we stayed up past midnight playing.
wife: oh! $hit. this isnt what i planned for. it didnt take him little over a week to come up with a plan to move on with his life after I walked out on him. and this other guy his feet smell.


Which translates to me as "Guess what, Mommy, Daddy is using us as pawns to tell you about his new girlfriend and kids so you'll get jealous and come home!!! I can't wait to tell my therapist when I grow up!!!"




If we have to go back to my wacko nut burger term,
I'm using that with anyone who would actually date someone else and bring them home and introduce them to their children.
I'm reading your example above and i'm trying to figure out in my head why anyone would ever do anything like that.

Why does dating translate to bringing dates home and introducing them to the children? The dating would be for tristan, not his children?! Am I missing something here?

The example that's quoted above and the fairy tale dialogue shown should never happen IMHO. I can't see any logic behind this whatsoever.


Yes, you're missing that the example and dialogue quoted above is quoted from Steve McQueen's post. Obviously I don't see any logic in it either.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/17/09 09:20 PM
Originally Posted By: robx

I think Tristan has mentioned in his thread that several people all have similar and at the same time differing opinions of what his wife is dealing with in terms of these mental health issues - they haven't just dealt with one person.

It's the symptom of the society we live in, pop this pill, let me know if it works, speak to someone else, get a different pill, same advice, so on & so forth.


Its not that she has moved from one psych to another. Its that the MC thought one diagnosis and the psych concluded another. But both agree on the same treatment, so I guess its not a big deal. But I am interested in what others that have been close to these disorders believe, because neither one seem to fit her exactly. My IC (who was our MC) said that he has often seen people in her situation confused and then adds ", but she takes it to a whole new level."

She told me last night that she is reading "True Love: A Practice for Awakening the Heart" by Thich Nhat Hanh and that I should read it as well. I will probably pick up a copy when I get a chance. Has anyone read it?

So was I wrong to talk to her last night for a half hour? She was hurting in the beginning and seemed to be in a better mood by the time we finished. It was nice to connect with her. Am I handing her too much cake or just showing compassion?
Quote:
My take is that I don't want my wife to stay with me for any other reason than the fact that she wants to be here. Not the kids, not the hideous logistics of divorce, not friends and family telling her she's insane. Otherwise, I will be dealing with this situation again in the future.


I totally agree with this, but sometimes it is the reality of losing someone or logistical issues that force the removal of the rose colored glasses and get the WAS to look at you again as a prospect...it is a fine line.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/18/09 01:55 AM
Journaling:

Not a whole lot to talk about today. I went for a 4 mile run after work. Grilled some hotdogs. Did some laundry. And thats about it. Nada contact with W.

I feel good. A bit lonely, but not the depressive lonely, just the "it would be nice to share this wonderful night with someone" lonely.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/18/09 02:24 AM
Hang in there, Tristan. Those early sep days suck.

It *does* get better.
I wanted to chime in on the dating issue. I don't know what's right for you. But do you imagine that with your wife having a boyfriend that she isn't still in contact with him. Yes, she misses her family, she doesn't like that the girls are being impacted by this, and she probably does have moments of second thoughts. The hardest thing about all of this is that she's still connected to you and you seem so close.

My relationship was that way also. We saw each other a lot. We went out to eat. We bought presents for each other on b-days. We went to movies together. I heard the same indecisiveness from my wife (including some of the more wacky things and my wife DOES NOT have a psychiatric disorder). There are oddities in many of these situations. And guess what? She had someone else in her life and while I was sitting there thinking she was considering a repeat relationship with me, she was going strong with someone else (fortunately just a long distance EA). I couldn't know what she was thinking, but I sure perseverated about what my actions meant to her. She maybe cared less...who knows.

We divorced despite the seeming positivity to by situation. So I let go. I dated. I enjoyed the feeling that I was worth something in someone else's eyes. I was a reasonable catch. Maybe you aren't ready to date and I think that's fine, but you sure as sh$t better let go of the rope and let her live her life while you live yours without any expectation that she'll ever return. You have to live as though she isn't coming back. You have to let go of the rope. She needs to at least sense that you a strong and confident enough to date. Enjoy women flirting with you rather than let it make you feel uncomfortable. For too long you've made it abundantly clear that you are waiting at home for her to return to it.

And yes, I'm back together with my wife and re-married. It came under her own time Of course I dated whether I wanted her back or not. You can't hold your breath that your wife will come back. Live your life. As I said before, it doesn't have to include dating but it should include putting yourself out there and enjoying your life.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/18/09 04:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Phoenixdeux
I wanted to chime in on the dating issue. I don't know what's right for you. But do you imagine that with your wife having a boyfriend that she isn't still in contact with him. Yes, she misses her family, she doesn't like that the girls are being impacted by this, and she probably does have moments of second thoughts. The hardest thing about all of this is that she's still connected to you and you seem so close.

My relationship was that way also. We saw each other a lot. We went out to eat. We bought presents for each other on b-days. We went to movies together. I heard the same indecisiveness from my wife (including some of the more wacky things and my wife DOES NOT have a psychiatric disorder). There are oddities in many of these situations. And guess what? She had someone else in her life and while I was sitting there thinking she was considering a repeat relationship with me, she was going strong with someone else (fortunately just a long distance EA). I couldn't know what she was thinking, but I sure perseverated about what my actions meant to her. She maybe cared less...who knows.

We divorced despite the seeming positivity to by situation. So I let go. I dated. I enjoyed the feeling that I was worth something in someone else's eyes. I was a reasonable catch. Maybe you aren't ready to date and I think that's fine, but you sure as sh$t better let go of the rope and let her live her life while you live yours without any expectation that she'll ever return. You have to live as though she isn't coming back. You have to let go of the rope. She needs to at least sense that you a strong and confident enough to date. Enjoy women flirting with you rather than let it make you feel uncomfortable. For too long you've made it abundantly clear that you are waiting at home for her to return to it.

And yes, I'm back together with my wife and re-married. It came under her own time Of course I dated whether I wanted her back or not. You can't hold your breath that your wife will come back. Live your life. As I said before, it doesn't have to include dating but it should include putting yourself out there and enjoying your life.


Thank you PD. I agree with this whole-heartedly. I am trying very hard to drop the rope. I am going out tonight to a get-together with other single parents. I am very nervous and conflicted about it, but it seems like a reasonable first step to moving on with my life. It is great that you remarried! How long did it take before your W realized you weren't so bad after all. What happened?

Thanks again.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/18/09 05:51 PM
PD. Have you been following along? Have I been handling myself OK since the seperation? Should have I talked to her on the phone the other night after it was obvious that she just wanted to talk?
Tristan,

Since the separation you haven't been too bad. Before that I felt you weren't being confident and strong enough.

Things I would change:
1) She can express that she is having a hard time, but from now on you aren't "surviving", "hanging in there", or other versions of weak. You are good or great.

2) Try a little more being unavailable, even if it's just going to the gym or a walk.

As for the talk...I would DEFINITELY say that you did fine letting her talk. Women connect (fairly frequently) through expressing their feelings and being HEARD. Keep being understanding and a good listener. DON'T be in the habit of bailing her out though. Listen, understand, and symphatize. Don't suggest how she can fix her problems. Let her get off the phone feeling a "high" from having venting to you.
P.S. Good luck.

If it's any consolation, even when your spouse wants to be in the marriage there are plenty of bad times....don't just remember it fondly or think that it will all be rosy now that you are so smart about relationships.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/18/09 07:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Phoenixdeux
P.S. Good luck.

If it's any consolation, even when your spouse wants to be in the marriage there are plenty of bad times....don't just remember it fondly or think that it will all be rosy now that you are so smart about relationships.


Thank you Phoenixdeux. It is good to get feedback. I find myself second guessing myself a lot. And I really don't think I am that smart about relationships yet. But I am learning a lot; everyone here is great.
Tristan,

If you live your life for your own reason as well as you can, without worrying about how it affects your wife, you won't have any reason to second guess yourself. You are still playing the game of "if I do this, what will she do". I think you are past that point and to the point of just doing your own thing for your own reasons. She wanted out...why should it matter what she thinks about you?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/18/09 07:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Phoenixdeux
I think you are past that point and to the point of just doing your own thing for your own reasons.


I am getting there.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/18/09 09:29 PM
Journaling:

2 e-mails today:

-W--------------------------------------------------
Hi there,

The girls did better last evening. We danced for a while to Hanna Montana’s dance along… it was fun to see D3 and D5 trying to follow the video. D3 is so flexible and coordinated; at times I am amazed because neither of us is like that. This morning I made a full breakfast and they ate a lot:-) They are looking forward to seeing you tomorrow. D5 was asking when was Saturday.

Hope all is well with you.
W

-M-------------------------------------------------

Doing well thank you. A little upset I won’t see them tonight. I’m missing them very much too.

Take care,
- Tristan

---------------------------------------------------


Well I am off to a single parents get together. I wanted to go by myself to meet some of them before throwing the girls into the mix. They are getting together to play board games. I have not played a board in a long time, but I always enjoyed the strategy ones. I am very nervous about this.
Posted By: vickyd Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/19/09 01:10 AM
Hi tristan,

I just wanted to tell you and all those who have posted to youm (Robx, Coach, Breakaway, Puppy) thank you so much. I know what you're going through with the sep right now is hard as ever. I've been there and know too well that the beginning is the worst feeling ever. But it does get better, absolutely!! Puppy pointed me to your post so that I can follow some of the advic given to you. I'm on the infedility thread. My H and I have been sep for a yr now. Like your W he is trying to cake eat. Says he loves and I do feel his love but at the same time I know how he has grown to disrespect me and has taken me for granted.

I'm somewhat in the same mental place as you... always second guessing my actions and questioning whether I did the right thing or not. BTW it sounds like you're doing a great job. I like the fact that you seem consistent in your axctions. My problem is that I'm not consistent enough. Keep up the good work. I think if you do your wife will most likely come through. You're doing great and feel free to check my thread. Good luck and I'll keep checking on you too.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/19/09 04:54 AM
Journaling:

Just got back from the game night. I had a lot of fun. I had not played spoons since HS. I met a lot good people. A couple stuck around and talked to me about my sitch at the end of the night. You guys are great, but there is nothing like talking to pepole face to face. And I haven't been able to speak bluntly about the seperation to anyone. The only ones that really know about it are my parents and siblings.

I texted W that I would pick the girls up tomorrow at 9:00 am. Never received a confirmation. I guess I will show up and see what happens.
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/19/09 06:21 AM
glad to see you're getting out. i've been doing my best, but it can be hard. . . it's great that you and W are civil.
Posted By: GoBison Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/19/09 06:43 AM
I wouldn't call it civil. We have very differing opinions on one major topic. I have just learned too keep my cool and not let whatever she is or isn't doing bother me. You will get there and the sooner it will be better for you and possibly your marriage. If you get the papers just deal with them. Don't let fear guide you.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/20/09 02:48 AM
Journaling:

Saturday:
It was a litle difficult for me to wake up this morning. I was out a little late and drank alcohol. Only had 2 beers, but that is enough to irritate the eczema and I was up itching all night. It sucks having an allergy to something you enjoy.

So I guess W left me a message this morning at 8:45 wondering when I was going to pick up the girls, saying she had them ready. It must have been when I was in the shower. I get to the door and D3 is already there jumping "Daddy! Daddy! Daddy!". That felt good. W opens door and she jumps out to give me a big hug. Its unfortunate that it takes something as tragic as divorce to make you understand just how much your children mean to you.

W: "How are you?"
M: "I'm good. How are you?"
W: <shrugs shoulders> "I'm doing OK."

I step in to help D3 put her shoes on. D5 pulls my hand, "Daddy, now can you please come look at my room?"

M: "Yes. I can do that."

This is the first time I have walkked through the house since it has been furnished. It was well furnished. The first thing I noticed was the tin turtle at the bottom of the steps. The "turtle" has always symbolized our relationship. I made a comment about the turtle on her key chain when we first met. I do not believe that I have seen her without a turtle pendant around her neck since the day she told me she was moving out.

D5 pulls me up the steps and into her room. "Look I have a Hanna Montana room!" She is very proud of their new room. It is well decorated. I notice there is a picture of me, but the picture that catches my eye is the one of W and I. It is the one that has "Love" written all over the frame, the one that she had up in her office for a while.

W asks would you like to see my room. I was curious and entered. It was furnished nicely. But again the pictures caught my eye. There were 3 on the nightsatnd. One of her, the other 2 of us: the wedding picture she took from our room and one where we were obviously a couple.

We walk out into the hall.
D5: "Daddy, did you sign me up for gymnastics?"
M: "I looked into it. But I haven't been called back yet."
D5: "Awww, does that mean we are going home?"
M: "Yes, but we will do something fun today. I promise."
D3 "I want to stay here. Mommy, I want to stay here."
W: "No sweetheart, I will see you tomorrow?"

W looks up at me. I had left an open invitation for her to join us for "family night" as we called it. It was always on Sunday that we would rent a movie and watch it together as a family.

W: "Is it OK if I come over tomorrow for a little bit?"
M: "Yes. That is fine."

Her phone rings. She ignores it. The phone rings a second time, this time she goes over looks at the caller ID in a perplexed manner and turns the phone off. I can only imagine who it was, but it reminded me that she has a boyfriend and changed my mood.

M: "OK. lets go girls."

We walk down the steps and to the door.

W: "What time would you like me to be there."
M: "I'm not sure, we are probably going to be out. Is it OK if I call you?"
W: "Yes. That is fine."
M: "Are you going to want to have dinner?" - I have a contemplative look on my face of how am I going to swing this?
W: "I can come over and put together something from whatever you have."
M: "That will probably work. Thank you."
D3: "Mommy. I want to stay here with you." - in her whining voice
W: "Don't worry. She is always wanting to do the opposite. She always wants to be at the other place."

I just give her a look, thinking it shouldn't be me you are worrying about.

M: "Have a good day.
W: "You too."

We did some grocery shopping. Went to a fall festival and spent about an hour winding ourselves through a corn maze. We then came back and I cleaned the house a little and cooked pasta as girls watched a few episodes of "Wizards of Waverly Place".

I'm feeling pretty accomplished today and know that tomorrow will be another busy one.
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/20/09 11:02 AM
wow. careful not to backslide, your wife obviously isn't over you! you guys'll be alright, just don't make any sudden moves.

good luck tomorrow. . .
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/21/09 05:13 AM
Too late to write a long post tonight, but W agreed to go back to marriage counseling tonight. She also professed that a day didn't go by for the last 2 weeks that she didn't think about me. I will give full details tomorrow.

It was a good night though.
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/21/09 05:43 AM
awesome! can't wait to hear about it!!!

do you guys have a good, marriage-positive counselor yet?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/21/09 08:13 PM
Journaling:
Sunday evening:
Girls and I went to church in the morning. D5 enjoys Sunday school. I had planned on going to a festival with the girls after church, but D5 said she would rather just stay home. Strange for her to want to do that, but I was fine with it. That gave me a chance to really clean up the house. I really wanted to make it nice to show W that I can maintain myself without her. Girls played outside with some neighbor friends while I did the cleaning.

I was anxious for much of the day as I did not know how the dinner and movie would go with W, but I was looking forward to it. When she arrived, it was a little awkward, but friendly. She came over to help cook, so we got right to it. I had little individual wines in the refrigerator, she helped herself to one and it quickly felt like old times. I started chopping peppers and she started on the onions:
M: “So did you learn anything new this weekend?”
W: <laughs>
M: “Why are you laughing?”
W: “You are always asking that now and I am learning so much.”
M: “OK.”
W: “I had a great meditation session this morning.”
M: “That’s good. At church?”
W: “No. Just on my own.”
The conversation drifts into how she has been getting a lot of time to meditate and getting better at it.
W: “So did you learn anything new this weekend?”
M: Jokingly - “Wait, I don’t think you ever answered my question. Did you learn anything new this weekend? We got off on a tangent”
W: “Well, at first I wondered why I invited myself over here today. But I am glad I did. I was looking forward to coming.”
M: “You didn’t invite yourself. You had an open invitation. And I was looking forward to it too.”
W: <smiles>
W: “So what did you learn this weekend?”
M: <think a little> “I learned that I still have fun playing spoons.”
I then explain what Spoons is and how it is played.

Dinner was good. It was the first time we spent dinner as a family since the separation. It was kind of quiet and a little awkward. Much of the conversation included the girls.

After dinner we all laid down on the floor to watch “Marley & Me”. This was the common Sunday night tradition when we were together as a family. It was a good movie and really relevant to some of the problems we had as parents when the girls were younger. I could tell my W was getting emotional. Truthfully, I was too. It is a very good “benefits of family” movie. I didn’t get it because of that (I thought it was more of a comedy), but it was definitely a good movie for us. The movie was long, so it ended well past the girl’s bedtime.
M: “OK. Girls time for bed.”
D3: “Is mommy sleeping here?”
M: “No.”
W: “But I can help put you to bed.”
D3: “I want mommy to sleep here.”
D5: “That was not a good movie. It had a sad ending. Good movies don’t have sad endings.”
M: “Sometimes they do.”

W puts D3 to sleep as I help D5 into bed. W comes in and starts helping with D5 as well.

D5: “Mommy, I want you to sleep here. I want you to move back.” – starts crying

I walk out of room, W is whispering to D5 while D5 continues to plead with W to stay. I felt uncomfortable upstairs, so I walk back down. W comes down, I assume to leave, so I get up.

W: “D5 wanted a glass of water.”
W pours a glass of water, I walk back upstairs with W. We both walk into D5s room again. D5 continues pleading, we both say goodnight. I walk out first, W continues to comfort D5. When W exits room, she is visibly upset. I offer her a hug and she immediately begins sobbing on my shoulder. This goes on for what seems like a couple of minutes.

M: “Let’s sit down.”
I walk her back to my bed.

D5: “Daddy, will please come lie down with me. I can’t sleep.”
M: “I’ll be right back, let me go talk to D5.”

I go back to D5’s room and lie down next to her. She starts off a conversation.
D5: “Daddy.”
M: “Yes”
D5: “Why do you and mommy talk like friends”
M: “What do you mean?”
D5: “I wish you were more normal, like friend Y’s parents”
M: “How are friend Y parents different?”
D5: “I wish you were more like the way you used to be. You know more like parents; not friends”
M: “OK”
D5: “Mommy said that she will move back someday.”
M: “She did?”
D5: “Yes”


A short time later, D5 is calmed down and nearly asleep. I walk back to my room where W is lying down on the bed. I lie down next to her; she looks at me and begins to cry again.
W: “I am so sorry.”
I don’t remember this conversation very well at all. I know there was a lot of crying, we hugged, and held hands.
W: “You know I love you. I love you so much. There isn’t a day that goes by that I am not thinking of you. I miss you. I miss our family.”
M: “I love you too.”
W: “I am so sorry. Can you ever forgive me?”
M: “Yes.”
W: “Do you think we can ever be together again?”
M: “Yes. Marriage counseling would be the first step. Would you be willing to do that?”
W: “Yes.”
I lean over to kiss her. She grabs the back of my head and it quickly becomes much more passionate. At first I go along with it, but then stop and pull away.
M: “No. Not now. It’s not time.”
W: “You’re right.”
M: “Not that I wouldn’t”
W stops me by zipping her lips.
W: “You’re right.”

The conversation continues till about 12:30. I walk her out to the car where we say goodnight with a kiss.

Looking back, I backslid here. But she did make a very large step in agreeing to MC. As of now she has turned from trying to find a way out of the marriage to recommitting to save it.
Wow. Actually I think you played it fairly cool. You resisted ML, which a lot of people wouldn't do, which makes you look strong and also respectful of the process that needs to happen to repair the marriage.

I think the main thing she needed to hear is that you could forgive her. Obviously more has to happen to move forward (transparency, OM, etc), but the fact that you are willing to forgive her so you can at least move in that direction is amazing.

I hope this means she is becoming more stable and seeing things more clearly, and seeing her own actions in a realistic light. That being said...tread carefully.
Posted By: JayMan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/21/09 08:58 PM
I will second this - your W has shared immensely here, but her emotions will change. She was caught up because she loves her daughter, and can't stand seeing them sad.

My W did the same thing - came to me sobbing, holding me, etc. I only asked her for marriage counseling - refused intimacy except for a hug, and made it clear to her that it wasn't because I didn't love her, but because I wanted to do things right, starting with me.

A week later, the old bitterness had crept back in, and she was off again. I did everything absolutely right, and it still didn't work.

I'm not trying to poop the party, but I would call a counselor now - don't wait on her - get it scheduled (unless she is the type that really wants to be involved). Pick someone neutral, but make sure you ask them if they believe in marriage and commitment. Many counselors counsel that you should basically do whatever you "feel" like in the moment!

I haven't read all of your situation, but I'm happy for where things can go!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/21/09 09:09 PM
Actually, I sent her a list of pro-marriage counselors in the area that accept our insurance. I thought it would be better for her to put some of the work into it. If I do all the legwork; isn't that a little pursuing in nature? I want her heart to be in this. Correct?
I think it's good because it shows you trust her in this and this is a joint thing and you aren't trying "to set her straight" like you're the adult and she's a child. It's acting like a partner.

I'd just say that you also look at the person she chooses and it's a joint decision of who you think will fit you best as a couple. Make it a "we" thing.

JMO, I've never gone to marriage counseling so what do I know? ;P
Posted By: JayMan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/21/09 10:07 PM
Tristan - as long as it doesn't just sit there in her email or whatever... I do like the thought of giving her some control on it.
I'm sorry, but I think you're completely "rescuing" her. Letting her know you're able to forgive is one thing; catering to her while she is still having her affair, and the language you're using, doesn't force her into her own crucible, in my opinion.

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 03:27 AM
My only communication with W today was 3 short e-mails:
---------------------------------------

I hope everything turned out well at your board meeting. Obviously I don’t have much new to tell you about the girls, but D3 did ask for you when she climbed into bed last night. Thank you for stopping by yesterday, it was a very enjoyable time.

Take care,
Tristan

---------------------------------------

Thank you. I had a very nice time too. It was hard but good.

The board meeting went well. They wanted an update on XXX and our financial standing. We are not doing well at all and CEO asked the board to step to the plate to raise money. It was a tense meeting but I am glad I was invited. Meetings like this help my professional development greatly and help me understand how decisions are made.

Thanks,
W

------------------------------------

As mentioned last night; if you would like to work on our relationship, I would like to start with initiating counseling. I have included a link that has what are considered “Pro-marriage” counselors. The last 3 in the list take our insurance; the first would be out-of-network (so he would be more expensive). If you are ready, you can give one of them a call and set up an appointment. If you would like to do your own search, that is fine with me as well. Please just check that they take our insurance.

Thanks,
- Tristan

------------------------------------

W stopped by daycare early to see girls but left before I arrived to pick them up. I am guessing that last night has scared her a little bit. It moved relatively fast. Back to giving her space and GAL'ing.

Had some fun with girls tonight. We went for a walk and went to bed early, everyone was still a little tired from the night before.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 03:35 AM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
I'm sorry, but I think you're completely "rescuing" her. Letting her know you're able to forgive is one thing; catering to her while she is still having her affair, and the language you're using, doesn't force her into her own crucible, in my opinion.

Puppy


Puppy,

I have been thinking of this today and am beginning to agree with you. When I look back on it, I can easily see where you are coming from. I just need to not get caught up in the moment and keep my mind on the bigger picture (what she is doing to me and this family).

Thanks.
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 04:39 AM
hey tristan,

do you know for a fact she's still seeing the OM? i read through your whole thread but i forget if you're sure it's still happening.

about scheduling counseling, i'd say don't let it be totally her responsibility, give it several days or a week and then ask if she's picked anybody yet, maybe give her two or three options, but don't force her to make the phonecall. it would be best if she did, but she could just put it off, even if she wants to work on the R, it's also going to be really difficult for her.

don't rush it, but i'd say seize the opportunity. once she's back in the process, she's less likely to change her mind.

stick with "i will be able to forgive you," but not "i have already forgiven you." you know what i mean? eventually you'll be able to say that forgiveness will be dependent on real change on her part, and you won't scare her off right off the bat.

i wouldn't bother demanding yet that she stop seeing the OM. . .

good luck!
Originally Posted By: ryepatch
i wouldn't bother demanding yet that she stop seeing the OM. . .


I WOULD! This has been going on for 2 years. I fail to see how continuing to have a third party in this relationship is acceptable.
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: ryepatch
i wouldn't bother demanding yet that she stop seeing the OM. . .


I WOULD! This has been going on for 2 years. I fail to see how continuing to have a third party in this relationship is acceptable.


I agree completely.

No, you cannot demand, ANYTHING -- that's controlling. But you CAN -- and SHOULD -- set boundaries. Boundaries are about YOU:

"I cannot continue to live in a marriage where my wife is having an affair," or

"I cannot continue to be your best friend while you are betraying our wedding vows; it violates my personal integrity,"

etc.

It seems to me, Tristan, from your depictions of your interactions with her (and they are very thorough and help us to understand all the dynamics -- you write so well!), that at this point, anyway, she probably values your FRIENDSHIP, COMPANIONSHIP and SUPPORT more than she does any sense of husband-wife intimacy with you. Pulling back on the friendship may yield some strong fruit for you, I suspect.

Puppy

Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 01:35 PM
Thanks Puppy.

I believe this to be true too. However, it is difficult for me to put into practice (it is very unnatural for me). I will keep trying.

As for OM, I do not know what is going on. I have not brought him up since the separation and neither has she. I assume there is something otherwise she would have told me it was over.
I'm thinking that what people mean is that the moment someone agrees to at least go see a MC is not the time to lay out all your boundaries. That maybe that's what the MC is for.

It would seem we all agree that she should not have a relationship with OM but I don't know why he would have to say that in that very conversation. You men always seem to want to SETTLE everything instantaneously and on your terms. I agree that those should BE Tristan's terms, but I'm not sure I understand the point of laying out requirements BEFORE going to a MC. ???

Maybe she'll suprise you and set up this appt. She has time to think about some of these things herself before the appt. Tristan has time to think as well, and decide what he wants and how he wants to say it. Because, as a woman, I'm telling you, HOW you say it means EVERYTHING. Also discussing this within MC also makes her accountable to someone besides Tristan. Sometimes it's easier to have the accountability with someone you aren't emotionally connected to.

OTOH she may balk at really following through on this, and then you have your answer anyway.

Just some thoughts...
Maybe I'm just different, but there's no way in h-e-double-hockysticks I would ever NOT know if my wife was still having an affair. Everyone says "DON'T SNOOP!", but what good does it do to NOT know?

The core of DBing IS unnatural, Tristan -- it may be the most counterintuitive thing you ever do.

I think you have a decision to make. There are those who are very strongly in the camp of doing what you're doing now. And then there is Robx's and Gucci's advice, which is very different. Reasonable people can disagree about which way to go, and which is true "DBing." But what you CAN'T do is keep waffling back and forth between the two approaches.

Let me ask you two questions:

1. What is your wife's biggest marital complaint?

2. What would you say was your prior* marital interpersonal style: accommodating/pleasing/rescuing/NiceGuy, or controlling/assertive/distant?

Puppy
Originally Posted By: breakaway
I agree that those should BE Tristan's terms, but I'm not sure I understand the point of laying out requirements BEFORE going to a MC. ???


Simple: because almost any good MC will tell you that the MCing won't be effective as long as one of the marital partners is still in an active affair.

Puppy
And why can't a good MC tell her that?
Originally Posted By: breakaway
And why can't a good MC tell her that?


If you know ahead of time that that will be the MC's position, then I wouldn't be opposed to that. But I'd be damned sure of it going in.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 01:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails


Let me ask you two questions:

1. What is your wife's biggest marital complaint?

2. What would you say was your prior* marital interpersonal style: accommodating/pleasing/rescuing/NiceGuy, or controlling/assertive/distant?


Currently, she has very little to complain about. She says I do everything pretty well. But she is bitter and resentful of the past. In our conversation the other night she said something to the affect "Sometimes I get so angry. But I miss you. I miss being angry at you, if that makes any sense."

In the past I was more the "controlling/assertive/distant" type.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 01:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: breakaway
And why can't a good MC tell her that?


If you know ahead of time that that will be the MC's position, then I wouldn't be opposed to that. But I'd be damned sure of it going in.


What else would a pro-marriage marriage counselor say?
I think I'd like to know a MC's opinion of that as well going in, since that will be a major issue. To be clear, one of the reasons I lean this way is because it makes it less about Tristan and more about his W. SHE needs to make this decision. Does that make sense? It's not him saying well I won't go to MC unless you agree to XYZ ahead of time. I pray they can find a VERY good MC that has experience working with someone like his W. I just think it could work. Maybe I'm wrong. But that's where I'm coming from.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: breakaway
And why can't a good MC tell her that?


If you know ahead of time that that will be the MC's position, then I wouldn't be opposed to that. But I'd be damned sure of it going in.


What else would a pro-marriage marriage counselor say?


You'd be surprised. Many supposedly "pro-marriage" counselors do more to help the wayward spouse "self-actualize" or "find themselves" than they do to actually try to support the marriage.

Good ones are few and far between.

Puppy
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails


Let me ask you two questions:

1. What is your wife's biggest marital complaint?

2. What would you say was your prior* marital interpersonal style: accommodating/pleasing/rescuing/NiceGuy, or controlling/assertive/distant?


Currently, she has very little to complain about. She says I do everything pretty well. But she is bitter and resentful of the past. In our conversation the other night she said something to the affect "Sometimes I get so angry. But I miss you. I miss being angry at you, if that makes any sense."

In the past I was more the "controlling/assertive/distant" type.


1. What, specifically about your past role in the marriage is she resentful of?

2. Can you give us an idea of what this ("controlling/assertive/distant") looked like? Some examples of it? That REALLY surprises me, but we only have what you come across like on this board to go by, so I'll take your word for it.

thanks,

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 02:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Many supposedly "pro-marriage" counselors do more to help the wayward spouse "self-actualize" or "find themselves" than they do to actually try to support the marriage.

Good ones are few and far between.

Puppy


Know of any good resources to find good ones?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 02:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails


1. What, specifically about your past role in the marriage is she resentful of?

2. Can you give us an idea of what this ("controlling/assertive/distant") looked like? Some examples of it? That REALLY surprises me, but we only have what you come across like on this board to go by, so I'll take your word for it.

thanks,

Puppy


Did you read this post:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1819191#Post1819191
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails


1. What, specifically about your past role in the marriage is she resentful of?

2. Can you give us an idea of what this ("controlling/assertive/distant") looked like? Some examples of it? That REALLY surprises me, but we only have what you come across like on this board to go by, so I'll take your word for it.

thanks,

Puppy


Did you read this post:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1819191#Post1819191


Yes, I did.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 02:34 PM
You know Puppy. This will be a good exercise for me: to list out all the ways I remember being controlling. Unfortunately, I need to work now. But I will do it tonight; it may be enlightening.

Thanks.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 04:00 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
I'm thinking that what people mean is that the moment someone agrees to at least go see a MC is not the time to lay out all your boundaries. That maybe that's what the MC is for.

It would seem we all agree that she should not have a relationship with OM but I don't know why he would have to say that in that very conversation. You men always seem to want to SETTLE everything instantaneously and on your terms. I agree that those should BE Tristan's terms, but I'm not sure I understand the point of laying out requirements BEFORE going to a MC. ???

Maybe she'll suprise you and set up this appt. She has time to think about some of these things herself before the appt. Tristan has time to think as well, and decide what he wants and how he wants to say it. Because, as a woman, I'm telling you, HOW you say it means EVERYTHING. Also discussing this within MC also makes her accountable to someone besides Tristan. Sometimes it's easier to have the accountability with someone you aren't emotionally connected to.

OTOH she may balk at really following through on this, and then you have your answer anyway.

Just some thoughts...


Love it!
"You MEN..."

Well at least she has identified some of us as the male species,
thanks for the stereotype breakaway, we always enjoy having the finger pointed at us. You still have issues apparently of your own to deal with, I don't think you know us "MEN" well enough to say what we "ALWAYS want", sounds like mind reading to me and while you're at it can you pick some winning lottery numbers for me, if you have the time ;-) Perhaps you're dealing with a man who wants things done now instead of waiting?

Setting boundaries is a good idea regardless of marriage counselling. You may consider the marriage counselling a small victory but take into account one thing, one paper I recently read stated that women who were having affairs that agreed to marriage counselling did so only to better handle the guilt they experienced due to their actions of having an affair and breaking the marriage up, they didn't have any real intentions of reconciling, going through the motions of marriage counselling allowed them to better handle their guilt because they could at least reason with themselves on some level "... at least I tried, I can't say I didn't try".

Tristan don't get me wrong, the marriage counselling sounds like a good idea but don't expect results overnight but I don't think you're stepping on anyone's toes by saying that you won't pursue marriage counselling if she continues to see the OM. If you're going to invest time & effort & resources into marriage counselling, you should expect the same for her, if you make it to easy for her to come back, she'll know you were a pushover and she can easily repeat this behavior again in the future because there are no consequences for her behavior and their is no real required investment on her part to show she's being genuine.

Again it's up to you.

As for breakaway's original statement, if us "MEN" want to settle everything instantaneously, maybe it would be more fair to say that we're not willing to live in limbo for several months to several years while our wives figure out what they really want because maybe our time is valuable also?

Why postpone the inevitable?
You want the marriage to work then be proactive and work on it, we're all adults (men & women alike), I'm assuming we can make mature responsible decisions within fairly reasonable amounts of time that don't require dragging out a process for alot longer than necessary. Maybe it's also fair to say that if you can't make a decision about wanting to settle issues and wanting your marriage, it's really just a way of saying I don't want my marriage but I feel guilty for admitting that so I would rather enlongate this process for an extraordinary amount of time and maybe time will change my mind & allow me to think something differently than what I think right now.

Time is finite, our lives are largely a linear experience: from point A to point B.... we're born, we grow up, we get old, we die. Time isn't guaranteed, no one says you have exactly 120 years so enjoy that guaranteed amount of time. No one can forecast what happens tomorrow, if someone gets hit by a bus, gets a disease. We can all go at any time so we must respect time and how we spend it, it's something we can't get back. Wasting time especially in this example by not making decisions that need to be made is being disrespectful to the time we have, to yourself, and to the people whose lives you affect.

Get busy living or get busy dying, I heard that the other day, I think it's a quote from a movie, sounds pretty appropriate with regards to settling issues and moving on with life and we should always live life largely on our own terms otherwise you'll be largely unsatisfied with your life when you look back at all the time you wasted living your life on someone else's terms. We can only live our life, no one else's.

- just my 0.02 cents.

BTW "....Because, as a woman, I'm telling you, HOW you say it means EVERYTHING." You are right, it certainly does, from our male point of view as well.
Quote:

You'd be surprised. Many supposedly "pro-marriage" counselors do more to help the wayward spouse "self-actualize" or "find themselves" than they do to actually try to support the marriage.

Good ones are few and far between.


I have a particularly inside view of this, and it's not good. A small fact I've not relayed in any of my posts is that my W IS A MC! Somehow when we got M, I thought that was a good thing, but all it did was make my W chronically unsatisfied with the imperfection of our M. When we needed MC, she took the lead and set us up with one of her colleagues (big mistake). Although this MC was fairly good at having us deal with our own issues, she was not very appropriate as a MARRIAGE counselor. The room was skewed with those two MC who have a professional and personal association on one side, and me on the other.

On top of all that, while we were struggling to keep our M together, I find out that our MC has split from her husband. How did I come to know this? Because her new business cards had a new name. When I noted that to my W, she said, "Oh yeah, MC is getting divorced." I said "That's awful!" My W replied "Why? She says they're both much happier now." Clearly my W and our MC were having personal discussions outside the confines of our MC sessions. At that moment I knew I was bailing a sinking ship.

Even though my W is a MC, she still started a secret EA, and when I eventually found out about it, after it had progressed to unalterable levels, she claimed it had no bearing on why she needed to leave me. We were in MC for months while it was going on, but she made no mention of it during our MC sessions. Somehow she thought it was not relevant to our M! I have learned the brutally hard way, the WAW's brain, especially in the throws of an A, is truly capable of justifying anything, and being absolutely indifferent to how it affects their H, even if that WAW happens to be a MC.
Originally Posted By: robx
[
thanks for the stereotype breakaway, we always enjoy having the finger pointed at us.


you always make me laugh, rob...I think I need to go get ready to have my husband take me now...
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 05:37 PM
Journaling:

We had this e-mail exchange this morning.

----------------------
Hi,

Girls did well last night. We went for a short walk. D5 colored you a picture and put it in the mailbox. I didn’t know your address, so I took it out and have it at the house. D3 is counting everything, they must have worked on that at preschool yesterday. They both enjoyed the books you got them.

Take care,
Tristan

------------------------

Thanks for the update. It was nice to see them yesterday. I miss them and can’t wait to see them again.

Thanks for the links for counseling. I will look at them.

Tristan, thanks for being you again. I don’t take you for granted. I know this is really hard on you, the girls and our family. I am asking God for guidance …I have done so much wrong and the first step is to forgive myself and heal.

W

PS

I will be training for the B_________ Ride and will need my bike. Could I stop by the house to get it tomorrow when I pick up the girls? I am not going in the house; I just need the bike from the garage… in a lighter note…I can’t wait to see my leg muscles again smile
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Originally Posted By: robx
[
thanks for the stereotype breakaway, we always enjoy having the finger pointed at us.


you always make me laugh, rob...I think I need to go get ready to have my husband take me now...


Breakaway.... you complete me! LOL!
Even when you're being a smart a$$ you have a bit of a sense of humor (I stress a "bit"), not bad ;-)

I hope you & your husband have a good time, put on the barry white cd, get jiggy with it and all that good stuff, love is a beautiful thing!
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 07:33 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Originally Posted By: robx
[
thanks for the stereotype breakaway, we always enjoy having the finger pointed at us.


you always make me laugh, rob...I think I need to go get ready to have my husband take me now...


Breakaway.... you complete me! LOL!
Even when you're being a smart a$$ you have a bit of a sense of humor (I stress a "bit"), not bad ;-)

I hope you & your husband have a good time, put on the barry white cd, get jiggy with it and all that good stuff, love is a beautiful thing!


yeah that was good. Snarky yet still funny.
thanks, folks, I'm here every night... cool

;P
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/22/09 09:54 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: ryepatch
i wouldn't bother demanding yet that she stop seeing the OM. . .


I WOULD! This has been going on for 2 years. I fail to see how continuing to have a third party in this relationship is acceptable.


it's not acceptable. all i'm saying is it shouldn't be a precondition for MC. you want to get her into the process first, and have the focus on your marriage aand relationship and family. it will be obvious to her, if she thinks about it for a second, that she can't come back to her family and hang on to the OM. make this clear at some point, but not up front. remember, she's still somewhat in a fog, and could interpret this as controlling.

wait til she says what she wants in MC, then tell her what the conditions are. not the other way around.

just my opinion.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/23/09 02:34 AM
Journaling:
Tuesday evening:
Had a wonderful night with the girls. D3 fell asleep in my arms after reading the "Grinch who Stole Christmas" (Dr. Seuss is grand). I really don't feel like thinking about W tonight.
Originally Posted By: tristan
I really don't feel like thinking about W tonight.


good answer.

Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
because almost any good MC will tell you that the MCing won't be effective as long as one of the marital partners is still in an active affair.

Puppy


Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: tristan
What else would a pro-marriage marriage counselor say?


You'd be surprised. Many supposedly "pro-marriage" counselors do more to help the wayward spouse "self-actualize" or "find themselves" than they do to actually try to support the marriage.

Good ones are few and far between.

Puppy

heed this advice.


and how comes you didnt take the sex when she was apparently making herself available to you? that pre-connection will make for a much better marriage counselling experience for y'all.

The other man has got to go you do realize that?
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Originally Posted By: robx
[
thanks for the stereotype breakaway, we always enjoy having the finger pointed at us.


you always make me laugh, rob...I think I need to go get ready to have my husband take me now...


breakaway,
I hope it was neither instantaneously or on his terms. *wink*
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/23/09 12:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: tristan
I really don't feel like thinking about W tonight.


good answer.


Thank you.


Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
The other man has got to go you do realize that?


Yes. But I don't think it should be mandatory for firt MC session.
please explain why
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/23/09 02:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
please explain why


I figure that any positive movement in working on the marriage should be accepted. Plus, I have already said it is a good first step; wouldn't want to go back on my word. OM does need to be addressed, but agree it can be done within the confines of MC.
So, some more of the woman's point of view here, since Tristan is actually married to...a woman. Caution, some may view this as a stereotype, gasp!

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and how comes you didnt take the sex when she was apparently making herself available to you? that pre-connection will make for a much better marriage counselling experience for y'all.

See, that's GENERALLY a man's point of view. Sex fixes everything and makes you so connected. That's how MEN feel.

You're dealing with a very confused person. To give in to the feelings of the moment could have just left her more confused and freaked out. For all you know she could have started crying in the middle of it saying I don't know what I'm doing!!! Personally, I think it's great, she wanted it, he said not yet...he didn't satisfy it, so now he's the one she "can't have" in a manner of speaking. I thought everyone was so big on the unavailability thing.

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The other man has got to go you do realize that?


EVERYONE realizes that. This is a matter of finesse. Look that one up in the dictionary. There seems to be a strong viewpoint here of "taking charge" and being a man and blah blah blah blah. Treat "your woman" like she's your teenage daughter. All I can tell you is that wouldn't work for me. It also didn't work when I was a teenage daughter.

I guarantee you that when she first said she'd go to MC, and the next thing Tristan said was well you have to get rid of OM this minute she'd either get defensive and freak out OR cry and agree in the moment to do something she hasn't thought through or was actually prepared to do. And then swing back and forth some more.

He's letting her think about it. He's approaching MC as her equal not her father. They may even HAVE the opportunity to broach this topic before MC starts. She already feels guilty. If OM is pressuring her, Tristan looks like a dream right now. He's being patient and giving her some room to make the right decision. Because it's the right decision.

Let me make something clear...I think Tristan has EVERY RIGHT TO and should set boundaries, and say, I can't work on this marriage if you're still involved with someone else. Then she actually gets to say what she needs from him.

Now, if she's still in lala land and reacts in such a way that she seems surprised she should have to do this, or she can't bring herself to do it or whatever, then he can calmly "walk away from the table." That's too bad, W, maybe we can talk again when you're ready. Or maybe it will be too late then.

What has he wasted? A week? Two? To save a marriage years in the making?

You can think her feelings are wrong or crazy or stupid, but she still has them and you can't just order them away. Giving her this SMALL AMOUNT of time will SAVE TIME in the end. Forcing a decision a week or two too soon could lead to a bunch of bullsh!t and backsliding later that could be avoided.

All I can tell you, is that when my husband applies the Taking Charge approach or getting his nuts back or whatever the HELL you want to call it, I can't get away from him fast enough. It's repulsive. And when he's like that, I hate it, but I it makes me miss OM and crave talking to him because he was always gentle and understanding. That's because he was faking of course, but (ROB ARE YOU LISTENING) that was like a drug that was way better than "new and exciting sex" y'all are so obsessed about.

She might have made "the ultimate" mistake but he still has to treat her like an equal if he wants it to work out in the long run.

That's my 2 bucks. (screw the 2 cents)
Posted By: JayMan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/23/09 02:51 PM
I agree with the sex part, but I disagree with the OM part.

My W made a promise to me to "forsake all others". Perhaps your word doesn't mean anything to you, but it does to me. I've heard all the excuses, but an affair is an affair no matter which way you try to justify it - even if OM was "gentle and understanding". If your husband is a butt-hole, then divorce him, but do it right.

That being said, if my W agreed to MC, I would not say a word about the OM. In my opinion, if she agrees to MC, then the OM is not all that and is fading fast, otherwise, he'd be her world, and MC wouldn't be an option. On that point, we completely agree. It would absolutely be worth getting with an objective person, and letting W spill her guts, talk about her feelings. Perception is reality, and sometimes you have to recognize that, no matter if you think W's feelings are crazy, they are WHAT SHE FEELS!

However, going forward, for the R to have any possible chance of moving toward reconciliation, even friendship, the OM would have to go. And I don't mean just go - I mean never see again, not a single text, not a single phone call, not any f2f, NOTHING.

If that's the "Taking Charge approach or getting his nuts back", then that's what it is, but it's right. If she didn't like it, she could go back to Mr. Gentle and Understanding, and see how long that lasted.

Sometimes, doing the right thing is more important than anything else. I can live with myself doing that.
I forgot to add that there is also an element of "saving face" here.

One thing smart women learn about finesse with a man is to always let them save face.
Originally Posted By: JonF
I agree with the sex part, but I disagree with the OM part.

My W made a promise to me to "forsake all others". Perhaps your word doesn't mean anything to you, but it does to me. I've heard all the excuses, but an affair is an affair no matter which way you try to justify it - even if OM was "gentle and understanding". If your husband is a butt-hole, then divorce him, but do it right.


You know what, I don't like talking about the A but I do because I do it for the purpose of sharing information. Explaining. Explaining is not justifying. I did not say I did the right thing, I'm explaining how it felt.

But I will tell you this, you don't know the FIRST f**king thing about being married to an abuser. Okay, I'm sorry that after being treated like a no-good dog for 15 years that I didn't take the high road and become superhuman, Mother friggin Teresa, somehow emotionally healthy and always appropriate and "do it right." He took vows to love honor and cherish and beat me down instead. I did the WRONG THING, I SAID it was the wrong thing, but I don't have to justify myself to anybody standing on this earth. Got that?

I also don't have to expose myself in this way to try to help THE GUY get his wife back. Got that? But I do because I hope it will help someone. So save your sanctimony for someone else.

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That being said, if my W agreed to MC, I would not say a word about the OM. In my opinion, if she agrees to MC, then the OM is not all that and is fading fast, otherwise, he'd be her world, and MC wouldn't be an option. On that point, we completely agree. It would absolutely be worth getting with an objective person, and letting W spill her guts, talk about her feelings. Perception is reality, and sometimes you have to recognize that, no matter if you think W's feelings are crazy, they are WHAT SHE FEELS!
Which was my point.

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However, going forward, for the R to have any possible chance of moving toward reconciliation, even friendship, the OM would have to go. And I don't mean just go - I mean never see again, not a single text, not a single phone call, not any f2f, NOTHING.
Of course.

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If that's the "Taking Charge approach or getting his nuts back", then that's what it is, but it's right. If she didn't like it, she could go back to Mr. Gentle and Understanding, and see how long that lasted.

Sometimes, doing the right thing is more important than anything else. I can live with myself doing that.


THE POINT is that when she said she was willing to go to MC, he was gentle and understanding. He has every right to have TOUGH BOUNDARIES. HOW MANY TIMES CAN I SAY IT??? NO WONDER YOU CAN'T HEAR YOUR WIVES!!
help me to understand.

women (feel free to stereotype, i dont care), married women, are going to be more attracted, in the long run, to a man that gives them space and time to go back and forth between 2 men. and that pressure and the unwillingness to share will/may intensify the emotional aspect of the affair, which is what women crave?

go one, please. Steve.
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I don't have to justify myself to anybody standing on this earth.


but i do appreciate you sharing your life and information. SMcQ
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/23/09 03:16 PM
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Treat "your woman" like she's your teenage daughter.


Treat her immature behavior with boundaries. She's confused because she lacks direction, focus and goals. Boundaries are in place to define a direction (behavior) that is unacceptable. Each person has define that boundary.
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
help me to understand.

women (feel free to stereotype, i dont care), married women, are going to be more attracted, in the long run, to a man that gives them space and time to go back and forth between 2 men. and that pressure and the unwillingness to share will/may intensify the emotional aspect of the affair, which is what women crave?

go one, please. Steve.


I didn't say that.

I'm saying that Tristan is saying to her look I love you, I want this to work out if it can, let's talk to someone about it.

OM COULD be saying, don't listen to him, he's a jerk, he always tells you what to do, he doesn't care about you.

Hmmm...but he's not acting like that. Maybe OM is wrong about Tristan. Maybe I've been wrong about Tristan. I was just SO MAD....Maybe OM just cares about himself. Maybe I'VE BEEN WRONG. OMG. And I really do love Tristan....what should I do. I'll eat chocolate ice cream and cry all night, maybe I'll know tomorrow.

My mother says to listen to Tristan. Maybe she's right too. I've screwed everything up. I don't know what to do. Maybe it's too late. Maybe not. I'm confused.

This OM thing is crazy. I'm not happy. Maybe I can let go now. Maybe it will be okay. I just want someone to love me. This is crazy.


Okay....times 500 million....and that's without even being bipolar. ;P
Posted By: JayMan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/23/09 03:22 PM
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But I will tell you this, you don't know the FIRST f**king thing about being married to an abuser.


For your information, my wife verbally and emotionally abused me for a very very long time - if that makes me sound like a weenie, then it's probably true. I never raised my voice to her - she cussed me out. I never raised a hand to her EVER, she has punched me, thrown stuff at me, etc. I never have said a single derogatory word to her - I've received countless insults and tear downs. She had everything I could have possible given her, and it wasn't enough. I am not sanctimonious in the slightest - I also certainly was the furthest thing from a saint.

I never responded to her because I'd been raised to believe that you don't put down your wife, you don't EVER hit a woman, you stand up for your wife no matter what, etc. I didn't realize that you don't have to let your W be a jerk.

I had every "right" to seek solace in the arms of a kind and gentle woman, I didn't, I simply started establishing boundaries. Am I special? Nope. Am I perfect? Absolutely not!

However, I sleep well at night because I did the right thing.

How about that? I hope that will help someone too!


Back to the issue at hand - I always answer my W gently and kindly, even when she throws crap at me, and I don't ever suggest that anyone act otherwise. That's how human beings should operate in general. I just see so many LBS compromising and allowing things slide - both men and women. I know it full well because I did it myself... How about we agree that kind and gentle works wonders for conversations, while respect and boundaries guides living? smile
Originally Posted By: breakaway
I didn't say that.


thats why i asked to help us understand. i will use your word finesse. there is a finesse to being a "don juan" correct.

now i or tristan can say 'bam' you screwed up it is now my way, take it or leave it. or we can say / do / realize 'she' is obviously passionate and searching for something (and maybe confused); how am i going to affect her in the most loving and heart-felt way in this complex situation. i hope i explained that question to you correctly.
Originally Posted By: JonF

I had every "right" to seek solace in the arms of a kind and gentle woman, I didn't, I simply started establishing boundaries. Am I special? Nope. Am I perfect? Absolutely not!

However, I sleep well at night because I did the right thing.



I'm sorry you suffered from her behavior. It's a lot easier for a man to set boundaries, however. My husband is a foot taller and has a hundred pounds on me so he doesn't always care if I have any "boundaries" or not. He pretty much thought I could stick my boundaries up my ass. I can stick a sign in my yard that says Don't Walk On The Grass, but I can't physically stop someone from doing it.

Again, I didn't say I had "the right" to do it.
I'm saying I was emotionally desperate and someone took advantage of that. I am so sick of my words being twisted around. I'm saying that as an emotionally battered and physically intimidated wife I didn't handle my situation in an emotionally appropriate way. But I did what a lot of people have done. Which was am mistake.

The last thing I'm saying about this is that I didn't sleep well. I went through a lot of torment. I wasn't "having a blast." I have lifetime scars. It's not a big party. My word does mean something to me. I suffered from that. It was mostly painful. I considered suicide.

My H doesn't even know it happened.

Even all this talking about it the last two days has been extremely emotionally painful for me and has reopened things that I need to keep closed.

So see ya.

Good luck Tristan I'll check back another time...
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/23/09 03:39 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
I don't have to justify myself to anybody standing on this earth. Got that?


Breakway,

I have not read your entire thread but enough of it to know that you were in a horrible place. And you are showing great faith and courage in trying to make it work. There is no judgement from me and I appreciate your insight.
Originally Posted By: breakaway


I'm saying that Tristan is saying to her look I love you, I want this to work out if it can, let's talk to someone about it.

OM COULD be saying, don't listen to him, he's a jerk, he always tells you what to do, he doesn't care about you.

Hmmm...but he's not acting like that. Maybe OM is wrong about Tristan. Maybe I've been wrong about Tristan. I was just SO MAD....Maybe OM just cares about himself. Maybe I'VE BEEN WRONG. OMG. And I really do love Tristan....what should I do. I'll eat chocolate ice cream and cry all night, maybe I'll know tomorrow.

My mother says to listen to Tristan. Maybe she's right too. I've screwed everything up. I don't know what to do. Maybe it's too late. Maybe not. I'm confused.

This OM thing is crazy. I'm not happy. Maybe I can let go now. Maybe it will be okay. I just want someone to love me. This is crazy.


Okay....times 500 million....and that's without even being bipolar. ;P



Thank you for sharing some insight into the confused , conflucted mind of what some of our W's are probably going through. You're right. There is a "guy mindset" to stand up and take charge. Get your balls back as you say. From what I've seen though, that only seems to chase my W further away. That's exactly what you confirmed.

Thanks for your perepective!
Originally Posted By: breakaway


He's letting her think about it. He's approaching MC as her equal not her father. They may even HAVE the opportunity to broach this topic before MC starts. She already feels guilty. If OM is pressuring her, Tristan looks like a dream right now. He's being patient and giving her some room to make the right decision. Because it's the right decision.

Let me make something clear...I think Tristan has EVERY RIGHT TO and should set boundaries, and say, I can't work on this marriage if you're still involved with someone else. Then she actually gets to say what she needs from him.

Now, if she's still in lala land and reacts in such a way that she seems surprised she should have to do this, or she can't bring herself to do it or whatever, then he can calmly "walk away from the table." That's too bad, W, maybe we can talk again when you're ready. Or maybe it will be too late then.


I think the above is PERFECT. It sets the right tone, and the right BALANCE, between being her husband, and being her FATHER. You can do the latter, but you'll have more work to do on the "attraction" front afterwards, trust me.

And yeah, I've changed a little on this. From experience. smirk

Puppy
Originally Posted By: JonF

That being said, if my W agreed to MC, I would not say a word about the OM. In my opinion, if she agrees to MC, then the OM is not all that and is fading fast, otherwise, he'd be her world, and MC wouldn't be an option.


Jon,

I think you're discounting the SIGNIFICANT number of wayward spouses who use MC as a false pretense to pretend that they tried. It happens. I actually overheard my wife, during her affair, talking to her brother on the phone, saying "I'll go to the counseling, just to show Mom and Dad and the kids that I tried, but there's no way I'm getting back together with Puppy."
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/23/09 04:04 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
"...And when he's like that, I hate it, but I it makes me miss OM and crave talking to him because he was always gentle and understanding. That's because he was faking of course, but (ROB ARE YOU LISTENING) that was like a drug that was way better than "new and exciting sex" y'all are so obsessed about."


zzzzzzzzzzzzz..... hmmmm... wHAT?!

Sorry breakaway I wasn't paying attention, what were talking about?

LOL!

breakaway I don't always agree with you (actually it's very rare when it happens) but alot of what you posted is actually very valid with regards to Tristan.

But the point about you (and maybe you're referring to women in general) about easily falling for the OM who was gentle & understanding (and now you realize he was faking it the whole time to achieve his $ex goals with you) only enlightens us to the fact that we need to be on our toes 24/7 with our wives because if some sweet talking stranger plays this routine that you mentioned with our wives who we assumed would be faithful, we're in trouble.

The double standard always exists and that's the problem I'm having to wrap my head around. We take for granted the husband that works to provide for his family, pays the bills, helps out around the home, is a good parent and has an active role in our children's lives. We take it for granted because they're always there. It's like everything else in life that we have regularly, we take it for granted. We don't appreciate what we have, we only realize it's value when it's gone. Women who aren't getting this type of "gentle & understanding" attention from their husbands, maybe it's there but it's from your spouses and you expect them to give it to you so it's not as exciting as it would be if it comes from a stranger who doesn't know you or your background, it's intoxicating to receive this from a stranger who from their first appearance wouldn't seem to gain anything from providing you with this type of attention - he's a stranger and if he's giving me this type of attention, it must be real, he doesn't know me at all.

What I'm trying to say is that it's quite possible that your husband was giving you some of this attention in some form or another all along and at the same time fulfilling all of his other obligations: working his full time job, providing for his family, taking care of his kids, his home, his wife, paying the bills, doing housework, etc. etc.

Your example of the stranger is exciting but that stranger wasn't doing any of these things your husband was doing? Can we admit that much at least? Your stranger that gave you this great attention and I'll admit it, it sounds great to have your ego boosted by a stranger but let's admit it, he also wasnt at home taking care of the kids, the home, the bills and every other family responsibility & obligation was he? Nope he wasn't. Because in the blink of an eye, all those things that i just mentioned to you, you took for granted all for the simple pleasure of having your ego stroked by a stranger: someone who viewed you as something other than a spouse and a mother and an employee and someone who takes care of a home. You took all those things for granted just like we all take for granted like the beat of our hearts (without it we would be dead), food in the fridge, hot water in the shower, and a bazillion other things that are commonplace but don't get your attention because you have them and if they don't have your attention, they don't get your appreciation.

When is the last time you really said thank you (and meant it) for your heart beating, thank you for the milk & food in the fridge, for the hot water in the shower, for the car you drive, for the home you live in, for the children you may have, for the spouse you married, etc. If you had a bowl of cereal this morning and your spouse recently bought milk and brought it home, did you thank them as you filled your tummy? Not bloody likely and it's because we don't appreciate things that don't catch our attention but all of these things most people would consider essential - you would be miserable without them (imagine living in poverty in a 3rd world nation). The sad thing is that as long you have those things, you won't notice them - you would only notice those things if they were absent in your life and you needed them. If you don't notice them, they don't have your attention and they won't have your appreciation.

So while you had all these things breakaway, you didn't notice them, they didn't have your attention and they didn't have your appreciation. A stranger noticed you, provided you with some sweet talk, everything else in your life vanished temporarily into the sweet ether while you listened to the sweet dulcet tones of a stranger's voice as she showed you gentleness, understanding, appreciation, etc. all of the purpose of having his way with you. I remember you called him a predator, and you are right but you have to take responsibility for your actions: you placed yourself in that situation where you didn't appreciate anything you had in your life because you had it and it made you ripe for the picking from this stranger.

When is the last time you expressed gratitude to the spouse that you have for all the things he is responsible for in your life?

Human nature is such that the relationship between what we have and how much we appreciate it is reversed. The more you have, the less likely you are to appreciate it. It's not that you can't appreciate it, it's just that you probably won't (and it's not just you, it's pretty much everyone). Husbands & wives do more for each other than anyone else in their lives but a spouse will feel more special if they get the attention of a stranger. We're more appreciative when someone does something for us infrequently. What we have frequently & regularly become less wonderful in our eyes because we don't have to work for those things. If you didn't have these regular & frequent things in your life, you would want them more and be more proactive about what you need to do to get it.

For what it's worth, I agree with you about Tristan not treating his wife like his daughter. That is the wrong thing to do. I know I spout alot of stuff about human nature & psychology & human nature but I'll throw just a bit more out there: human nature dictates that we rebel against those that try to control us. Think about that and every situation it applies to, when you were growing up, you rebelled against your parents for telling you what to do, in your current situations, some of you will rebel against a controlling spouse who is telling you what to do and how you should feel, etc.

Tristan if you want my advice (and I'll just put it out there), don't tell her she can't see the OM before going to the MC session. During your session however, I would state that as a requirement in good faith, your wife will need to stop seeing the OM for you to continue going to marriage counselling and that she should invest in the marriage counselling, ie. pay for the sessions.

The rationale is this: she left the marriage, she chose to separate and she chose to see the OM and have a relationship with him. She made all these choices and she did it without your input and she did regardless of the consequences towards you and the family in general.

Now you have to make the choices, you have to show that the choice in all of this is yours. You love your wife but you won't be the backup option, the 2nd choice, in fact this is all your choice and you are exercising the power of that choice. She is free to continue seeing the OM and make that clear to her that this is her choice to continue doing that but the choice that is yours is that you won't waste time in marriage counselling while he still exists in a relationship with him and doing this is respectful to both of you. Also since she chose to break apart the marriage, if she is really invested in the reconciliation process she has to show it so that you both know you're not wasting time & money and to show this, you will ask her to pay for the marriage counselling, you won't share the costs because currently you don't trust her and you can make that clear to her, it's you being honest, part of rebuilding trust is doing so with consistent trustworthy actions and if she really wants to rebuild this marriage into something you both want to be part of, she will be responsible for the marriage counselling expense - I don't think it's unreasonable, it's very fair considering all that's happened thus far.

You don't have to be a prick or an a$$hole when setting boundaries, you can do it by being calm & respectful. If you have to show anger when setting boundaries it means you have to supplement your words with emotion but if you do it calmly, your body language communicates that you are strong & in control, it's a powerful way to communicate a message and I think it shows how much of a man you really are and there's nothing wrong with being a strong man, in fact, it's a very attractive quality.

Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/23/09 04:05 PM
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And yeah, I've changed a little on this. From experience.


Who says you can't teach a old dog new tricks. Feels good getting your belly rubbed doesn't it old fella?
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

I think you're discounting the SIGNIFICANT number of wayward spouses who use MC as a false pretense to pretend that they tried. It happens. I actually overheard my wife, during her affair, talking to her brother on the phone, saying "I'll go to the counseling, just to show Mom and Dad and the kids that I tried, but there's no way I'm getting back together with Puppy."



Second. My W was trying the same thing. She wanted to be able to tell people she tried, but had no intention of working on it at that time. She just sat in the corner and watched the clock.
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
And yeah, I've changed a little on this. From experience.


Who says you can't teach a old dog new tricks. Feels good getting your belly rubbed doesn't it old fella?


Yeah baby. cool
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: breakaway
I don't have to justify myself to anybody standing on this earth. Got that?


Breakway,

I have not read your entire thread but enough of it to know that you were in a horrible place. And you are showing great faith and courage in trying to make it work. There is no judgement from me and I appreciate your insight.


Thanks.
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breakaway I don't always agree with you (actually it's very rare when it happens) but alot of what you posted is actually very valid with regards to Tristan.


My point of view is valid whether someone agrees with it or not, as it's based on my own experience. wink

A disclaimer about me: One thing that I find annoying about this forum is the tendency to treat all situations and all WAW's as the same. They have commonality of course, but every situation has differences. I don't get involved in every thread. I chose this one because I felt some very strong similarities to my own experience, although there are certainly differences too. I also don't always give the same advice. So when my advice is XYZ it's because I think it might work in THAT situation. I'm the one who asked marriedcrazy to comment here even though he's moved on from the forums because I thought he might have insight. Yet my advice to him has always been...she's a liar, she's playing you, she'll never change. So it's not like I just take the side of a WAW because I was one. And tristan's wife could go either way, I just think he should try softer before tougher.

This leads me to your comments about me. I don't know why you are assuming so many things about me. You are incorrect about most of them.

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But the point about you (and maybe you're referring to women in general) about easily falling for the OM who was gentle & understanding (and now you realize he was faking it the whole time to achieve his $ex goals with you) only enlightens us to the fact that we need to be on our toes 24/7 with our wives because if some sweet talking stranger plays this routine that you mentioned with our wives who we assumed would be faithful, we're in trouble.


Yes. I always assumed I would be faithful myself. I was AT LEAST as judgmental as all of you. Ha. I'll tell ya something though, his sex goals were certainly ancillary. I lived 2000 miles away from him for one thing. He could, and I'm sure did, get sex easier than that. His goal was to be worshiped. Knight in Shining Armor. Savior. God. And I did worship him. Sickening. Oh, and the immediate goal was to get back at his wife, in spades. I figured that part out first.

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The double standard always exists and that's the problem I'm having to wrap my head around. We take for granted the husband that works to provide for his family, pays the bills, helps out around the home, is a good parent and has an active role in our children's lives. We take it for granted because they're always there. It's like everything else in life that we have regularly, we take it for granted. We don't appreciate what we have, we only realize it's value when it's gone.


You're assuming I take those things for granted. I do not. Those are the things I told myself over and over and over. But he works hard, but he's good with the kids (sort of), but but but...Don't take it for granted. A lot of men don't do those things...he's not all bad.... Sadly in his family, and it is the motto of the functional alcoholic, working hard means you aren't responsible for anything else you do. His uncle KILLED SOMEONE drunk driving but, boy, he sure does work hard. BTW, I don't work hard enough. That gets told to me ad infinitum...really, the guy who killed someone is really a much better person than I am because he takes really good care of his property.

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Women who aren't getting this type of "gentle & understanding" attention from their husbands, maybe it's there but it's from your spouses and you expect them to give it to you so it's not as exciting as it would be if it comes from a stranger who doesn't know you or your background, it's intoxicating to receive this from a stranger who from their first appearance wouldn't seem to gain anything from providing you with this type of attention - he's a stranger and if he's giving me this type of attention, it must be real, he doesn't know me at all.

What I'm trying to say is that it's quite possible that your husband was giving you some of this attention in some form or another all along and at the same time fulfilling all of his other obligations: working his full time job, providing for his family, taking care of his kids, his home, his wife, paying the bills, doing housework, etc. etc.


No. He was not doing that all along. I'm sorry, rob, but my husband is not gentle and understanding. He is the OPPOSITE of understanding. He lacks empathy. That's what makes a person an abuser in the first place. I dont' expect to be told I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread every day. In fact I've tried to expect very little, because after all he's a hard worker and puts food on the table and coaches his son's team. I expect that when my life is falling down around me that he might be willing to hold me and help me. My family lost their entire town in Katrina...I lost a family member. A big part of my world unravelled. I went through that alone. He asks me not to speak of it. He says he doesn't want to hear about my problems. I have asked him for comfort and he has walked out of the room like I didn't say anything. I have had medical problems that he has ignored, denied and YELLED at me for needing medication that cost him money. He took me for outpatient surgery and was upset that he couldn't just drop me off at home and go back to work...He has beaten me over the head about simple mistakes like forgetting a water bottle. I could write a novel about it. I did not have a "boring" marriage I had a dysfunctional marriage. When things were getting more serious with OM I went to him and tried again...I as compassionately and as clearly as I could tried to explain my feelings, for the last time, and what he was doing to me. When I said I needed him to talk to me, he said nobody would want to talk to you... okay, anything I said, that's the kind of response I got. And he told me nothing was going to change. I told him it was definitely going to change.

All this talk of then you should have divorced him? I decided I would. OM or no OM. The things he said to me at this stage made me realize I wanted out no matter what. One thing I'll tell you, he rolled out a red carpet for "the stranger" at that point. Not very smart.

Quote:
Your example of the stranger is exciting but that stranger wasn't doing any of these things your husband was doing? Can we admit that much at least? Your stranger that gave you this great attention and I'll admit it, it sounds great to have your ego boosted by a stranger but let's admit it, he also wasnt at home taking care of the kids, the home, the bills and every other family responsibility & obligation was he? Nope he wasn't. Because in the blink of an eye, all those things that i just mentioned to you, you took for granted all for the simple pleasure of having your ego stroked by a stranger: someone who viewed you as something other than a spouse and a mother and an employee and someone who takes care of a home. You took all those things for granted just like we all take for granted like the beat of our hearts (without it we would be dead), food in the fridge, hot water in the shower, and a bazillion other things that are commonplace but don't get your attention because you have them and if they don't have your attention, they don't get your appreciation.


It wasn't in the blink of an eye. It wasn't without questions or resistance or an internal struggle. You weren't there, you have no idea what I did or didn't do. And you dont' know what he did or didn't do for his family. We were friends. It was on the internet initially, a forum for a common interest, like this (not R based). It was easy to talk about things because it felt safe. It was more than stroking my ego...it was listening to my deepest hurts and taking me seriously. The dam broke and suddenly I was telling him everything, things I've never told another soul. I'm not stupid. I knew this wasn't exactly a real situation. I thought it would never go any further, I had a false sense of security about that. His listening to me and telling me it was okay, that I was okay...OMG. The sweet talk was great, yeah, but I'm not a fool. I've resisted plenty of sweet talk in my life. I'm an attractive woman, I could get attention any time I wanted it if that's what I was going for. I have avoided that quite successfully. But to have someone care about me (or so I thought) and someone who seemed to need the same kind of caring...I thought this is it. This is who I belong with. I do not belong with this person telling me how bad I am every day. Plus, my H told me so much about how I did everything wrong and was crazy, I thought, I don't make him happy anyway!!! And OM and I are perfect for each other and fate brought us together!!! Except it was more like he targeted me, studied me, approached me with friendship and weaseled his way into my heart....we were so perfect for each other because he pretended to be interested in what I was interested in. He's a very clever person. And, really, he took in a whole GROUP of people and seemed like the center of the group of friends. He ditched all them too. He fooled a lot of people. It's his MO.

Quote:
When is the last time you really said thank you (and meant it) for your heart beating, thank you for the milk & food in the fridge, for the hot water in the shower, for the car you drive, for the home you live in, for the children you may have, for the spouse you married, etc. If you had a bowl of cereal this morning and your spouse recently bought milk and brought it home, did you thank them as you filled your tummy? Not bloody likely and it's because we don't appreciate things that don't catch our attention but all of these things most people would consider essential - you would be miserable without them (imagine living in poverty in a 3rd world nation). The sad thing is that as long you have those things, you won't notice them - you would only notice those things if they were absent in your life and you needed them. If you don't notice them, they don't have your attention and they won't have your appreciation.


Again, you really don't know very much about me. My gratitude for simple things in life is one of the things that has kept me sane. I've always been amazed by people who get terminal illnesses and say now I notice the sunset or the sound of children laughing or whatever. I've always noticed those things. I have a love for life. I have prayed many thanks to God that at least I had a home and an education and enough food to eat and feed my children. For health care, for living in a free nation, for a million things. I am a grateful, thankful, loving, forgiving person. This is why I attract a$$holes.

Quote:
So while you had all these things breakaway, you didn't notice them


I did notice them...
Quote:
they didn't have your attention and they didn't have your appreciation.
they did have my attention and appreciation...

Quote:
A stranger noticed you, provided you with some sweet talk, everything else in your life vanished temporarily into the sweet ether while you listened to the sweet dulcet tones of a stranger's voice as she showed you gentleness, understanding, appreciation, etc. all of the purpose of having his way with you. I remember you called him a predator, and you are right but you have to take responsibility for your actions: you placed yourself in that situation where you didn't appreciate anything you had in your life because you had it and it made you ripe for the picking from this stranger.


My tendency to OVER appreciate things that are called "parenting" and "paying bills" led me to tolerate a lot of mistreatment. Again, it wasn't sweet talk, which is nice, it was listening to me. Of course when he got bored he didn't want to listen to me...I thought he really understood me when he was mirroring me. I thought he was my soulmate and the long years of trauma were over and I was finally going to have love and happiness. And I also sometimes cried my eyes out because I didn't see how I could break up my family for another man and then I'd feel like dying because either option seemed impossible. Staying or leaving. OM made that decision for me in the end. Thank you, God.

Quote:
When is the last time you expressed gratitude to the spouse that you have for all the things he is responsible for in your life?
I do that plenty of times.

Quote:
Human nature is such that the relationship between what we have and how much we appreciate it is reversed. The more you have, the less likely you are to appreciate it. It's not that you can't appreciate it, it's just that you probably won't (and it's not just you, it's pretty much everyone). Husbands & wives do more for each other than anyone else in their lives but a spouse will feel more special if they get the attention of a stranger. We're more appreciative when someone does something for us infrequently. What we have frequently & regularly become less wonderful in our eyes because we don't have to work for those things. If you didn't have these regular & frequent things in your life, you would want them more and be more proactive about what you need to do to get it.


Again, why are you assuming I wasn't proactive. I had tried everything. I worked very hard on my marriage. I still do. He's lucky, if you ask me.

In any event, God brings all things together for good...OM's uncanny ability to read me led to me rediscovering good things about myself. Some messed up things about myself too. Spending a lot of time in IC talking about this issue has also brought me a lot of long needed healing in other areas. For example, why did I need to hear these things from a man? A certain type of man, just a slight bit older, some other details that don't matter for this discussion...what was that need all about? Why did that click? Why did I martyr myself to the point that I finally went the COMPLETE other way and do something "unthinkable" in desperation? Lots of questions. Al Anon has helped a lot too. Why do I think it's selfish to take care of myself? And let people exploit that feeling?

These things are complicated. Nobody wants them to be complicated. They want them to be cut and dried...Say this or do that or read this book and make this speech and make the spouse "snap out of it." Well, dream on. Life isn't like that.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/23/09 11:45 PM
So I'm wrong on nearly every count.

So riddle me this batman (breakaway),
seriously, you sound as perfect as it gets,
why is it that husband does not like you because that is the picture you paint for all of us.

By your own account, you are attractive (physically) and that's a primary attraction factor for men - you got that one taken care of.

You seem to value life and all the little bits that make it up, you are appreciative & attentive, you sound educated & intelligent, you appear to have more than just a clue about things.

You seem to have so much going for you yet.... your husband doesn't seem to be that great towards you (and again that's by your account, I can only gauge the situation based on what info you provide us).

Why doesn't your husband appreciate you?
Why isn't he more caring & loving towards you?
What is it that you do that does not turn his crank so to speak? Why would your husband say that you do everything wrong & you are crazy?

I know I'm hijacking your thread Tristan but some of this may prove relevant to your own situation.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 12:17 AM
Sometimes the reasons for those things have very little to do with the partner and quite a bit to do with events in the H's family of origin.

When I read Breakaway's sitch, I see a verbally/emotionally abusive man with alcohol and porn addictions. Break could be a standout mate and with that set of issues, her H would still treat her like crapola.

His anger is not about Break for the most part - it is merely triggered by Break.

His alcohol issues are not about her.

His porn issues are not about her.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 03:51 AM
Journaling:
Wednesday:
Today started off with the normal exchange of e-mails:
--------------------------
Hi,

Girls did well again last night. Road bikes down to the school and played for a while. Then they ate, took a bath, and went to bed. Nothing too special.

Take care,
- Tristan
----------------------------

Thanks for the update. I miss them so so much…. can’t wait to see them today.

----------------------------

By the way, feel free to pick up the bike. Thank you for letting me know.

----------------------------

Around 2 this afternoon, I receive a call on my cell from her. I am on the phone with manager, so I let it go. She then calls the office phone; so I call her back.

M: "Hi. Did you call?"
W: "Yeah... I was just driving around and wondered if you had time for a cup of coffee" (She drives when something is bothering her)
M: "Yes. I can get away for a little bit. Where would you like to meet." (We work over an hour apart from each other)
W: "I can come pick you up. I will give you a call when I get there."
M: "OK. No Problem. See you in a bit."
W: "Bye"

OK. I must admit the anxiety began to set in here. I really had no idea what she wanted to talk about, but I could tell by her tone it was serious.

She calls up and I walk down to the car as nervous as could be, but was able to muster up a smile for her. She smiles back. When I get in the car, I hear the music of one of our CDs which relaxes me a bit. I can tell she is nervous as well.

M: "So how are you?"
W: "Good and you?"
M: "Fine. Thank you."
M: "So where would you like to go?"
W: <shrugs>
M: "How about a little walk. There is a nice park near here."
W: "That is fine."

We talk a little about the girls on the way to the park. Today was a very nice autumn day, leaves are beginning to change and the sound of locusts fill the air. We begin to walk in silence. I had no idea what to say.

W: "It's wierd isn't it."
M: "What you mean us?"
W: "No. Me coming out here to see you. Do you think we are wierd?"
M: "Well we are not what we used to be, it's different now."
W: "Yes. I see what you mean."
...
W: "You know when I left, I thought I would be like a butterfly. I would be able to flutter away and be free. But what I have found is that I miss us. I miss the girls. I miss our family."
M: "I miss our family too."
W: "I miss our crazy life. You know I went out with J last night and she had to leave because she wanted to go see H and kid. And I just felt..."

We walk some more in silence.

W: "So do you think we have a chance?"
M: <I pause> "Ah Yes. As long as you do. Do you?"
W: "Why do you think I am here?"

I give her the "Well it could be for a couple of different reasons" look.

W: "What? You thought I was going to serve you with papaers or something?"
M: "Well, I was prepared for it."

W shakes her head and laughs. We walk more in silence.

M: "So are you saying that you would like to try to get back together?"
W: "Yes."
M: "I'm willing. But we can't go back to what we had before."
W: "I know."
M: "We both need to make changes. I am willing to work on my part."
W: "I know I have a lot of work to do."

We walk more in silence.

W: "I looked into the counselors and read up on the website and what "Pro-marriage" counselors are. I will give one of them a call."
M: "You know some things are obviously going to need to change. I need to feel secure in a marriage."
W: "Are you talking about OM."
M: "Yes."
W: "I know he needs to be out of the picture. I know that."

Walk more in silence.

W: "Did I tell you I am looking for another job."
M: "Yes. The one at the -----"
W: "Yes. I am also updating my resume and doing searches. What time is it, I am concerned about the girls."
M: "4:00, do you want to turn back?"
W: "Yes."

We talk about lighter things on the way back to the car. When we get back to the car we stand there looking at each other.

M: "This feels wierd."
W: "How."
M: "I don't know. I feel anxious, like I am on a first date. But there is a whole lot more at stake."
W: Nods her head.
M: "So you really thought I had given up."
W: "Yes."
M: "Why?"
W: "You were so short. I thought you were so angry at me."
M: "Its not anger its..." <I pause trying to come up with the feeling I've had over the past couple of weeks, and can't figure it out> "defensive, I guess."
W: "May I have a hug."

I hug her lightly.

M: "Give me time."
W: "I just asked for a hug." and starts to cry

I hug her again.

W gives me a puzzled look and I realize I really have no idea how I feel anymore. I have been in cognitave override mode for so long now that I think I have been completely ignoring them to some extent; especially the feelings toward her.

We drive back. She tells me to have a good run and I tell her to give me a call. She said she would.

I went home after work and went for a quick run. W calls around 10:00. We talk about some small stuff. She mentions that she was thinking of skipping work tomorrow and going for a long bike ride and asked if I would like to come along. I told her that I couldn't with only 1 day notice. So she decided she is going to do it alone.

So a lot happened today. I need to sleep on it. I have been working so hard to detach. Now it seems that I need to change a little on my direction and I am a little perplexed on how to go about it.
Quote:
Now it seems that I need to change a little on my direction and I am a little perplexed on how to go about it.


Ask her out on a date then. Despite what you have been told, sex does fix everything.
Good for you.

How to go about it? I suggest taking her up on that bike ride. Just a different day. Maybe bring a backpack of food and have a picnic.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 01:57 PM
So as I have been working so hard to save the marriage; I really haven't taken time to reflect on its state. Yesterday, with W seriously discussing the possibility of getting back together, I took time to do that. I look around at the mess that use to be our marriage and wonder "Where the he!! do we start? We have done so much damage."

I am not discouraged. I know I want us to work. But currently am not sure how to get from where we are now to where we say we want to be emotionally, spiritually, logistically, etc. This is going to take time.
Originally Posted By: tristan
I am not discouraged. I know I want us to work. But currently am not sure how to get from where we are now to where we say we want to be emotionally, spiritually, logistically, etc. This is going to take time.

Lots and lots of time but a really awesome problem to have. smile
A few pieces of advice:

1) Try to get out of serious mode. This is serious business, but it gets old and is no fun if you only talk about the relationship. Go for it a bit. You initiate some hugs (or even more)when you see her. This is your wife. It isn't a stranger or the first date. Put yourself out there a bit. Get natural with her. I know this part is awkward, but it helps if you try to move things to a more natural phase. My wife stayed at the house ONE night, and it was amazing how quickly the awkwardness left. She never left after that point. If you have to keep seeing her for all these awkward little talk sessions I doubt it will be all that exciting for her. Just give things a go. Have her over....and soon while she's still looking positively at things.

Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 02:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Quote:
Now it seems that I need to change a little on my direction and I am a little perplexed on how to go about it.


Ask her out on a date then. Despite what you have been told, sex does fix everything.


LOL! Too funny! Steve you are a bugger!
(Don't let breakaway hear what you just said, she might get her husband to "take" her again)
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 02:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Phoenixdeux
A few pieces of advice:

1) Try to get out of serious mode. This is serious business, but it gets old and is no fun if you only talk about the relationship. Go for it a bit. You initiate some hugs (or even more)when you see her. This is your wife. It isn't a stranger or the first date. Put yourself out there a bit. Get natural with her. I know this part is awkward, but it helps if you try to move things to a more natural phase. My wife stayed at the house ONE night, and it was amazing how quickly the awkwardness left. She never left after that point. If you have to keep seeing her for all these awkward little talk sessions I doubt it will be all that exciting for her. Just give things a go. Have her over....and soon while she's still looking positively at things.



What about OM? She said that she knows he needs to go, but hasn't said he is gone. Do I keep strict boundaries or let them slide? It's hard to be natural with your W when you have unatural boundaries in place.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 02:48 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
So as I have been working so hard to save the marriage; I really haven't taken time to reflect on its state. Yesterday, with W seriously discussing the possibility of getting back together, I took time to do that. I look around at the mess that use to be our marriage and wonder "Where the he!! do we start? We have done so much damage."

I am not discouraged. I know I want us to work. But currently am not sure how to get from where we are now to where we say we want to be emotionally, spiritually, logistically, etc. This is going to take time.


I think the dialogue went in the right direction,
you led, she asked questions, you provided input, you weren't pursuing her, it seemed more or less based on your description of the dialogue that she is starting to pursue you again. Even when you told her to give you time after she asked for a hug and she started to cry, it's that push/pull dynamic that's in effect, you hugging her lightly, telling her to give you more time, so you slightly pushing her away as she is pulling you towards you and her crying showing that she thinks it's possible that you're moving in the opposite direction away from the marriage. It's going the right way, you can't make any of this too easy on her, I know you want to, I know we want to fix everything right now and just move forward but the process takes time plus the time itself helps to rebuild that trust, and she has trust to rebuild with you, with consistent actions, she has to show that she wants this.

You're doing good Tristan, really good. I'm not forecasting the future and giving you any false sense of hope but things do seem to be moving in the right direction, regardless of any setbacks that may occur along the way, you need to maintain this attitude that you currently have, your wife reads it, feels it, it's what is prompting her actions. Despite her previous comments about not liking what you had become (I think she mentioned mad or colder or something to that effect) and acting differently, let's be honest, it was those differences that prompted her to see that Tristan probably wasn't going to hang out and live in limbo forever. You started respecting yourself and demanding respect for yourself (directly & indirectly) and it's that verbal & body language that makes people stand up & take notice. You are doing great so far and I know it hasn't been easy: discussing this on a forum with strangers, getting conflicting views & opinions on what you should & shouldn't be doing but through it all, you took the best points of what felt comfortable with you & what you were able to do and you are seeing positive results because of this. You will probably notice, just as I have during this process that db'ing isn't just a one time thing, it's going to be part of your life now, a continuous process of personal development. I'm not saying you can't be comfortable and relax but I know you can't be lazy, you will have to monitor your relationship, your role in it, your wife's role in it, until it becomes habitual and you don't have to think about it to do it. Being lazy and thinking everything is ok as is and that every other marriage has problems so we're ok isn't going to cut it anymore. It sounds like work but it isn't, I would call it investing in your marriage as opposed to work, when you see it as an investment, you see that it has value, that's the right mindset to have, you know you have value now, you know what to expect from your spouse and when you set that bar high, they will expect just as much from you, and if you love each other, you'll keep that "mutual admiration society" going and continue to do things that make each other feel great and when your partner slacks a bit, you know you can be honest enough to say it and what you want because you respect yourself enough to ask for what you want and to be honest about it instead of being silent and just assuming things are ok.

Man I tell ya, it's a process, LOL!

So Tristan, how are you feeling today?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 03:04 PM
Robx, I feel great. Thank you. You (and everyone else on this board) have been a great help.

And I know this is a process. I gave my W an unprompted phone call this morning to ask if she decided to go for the bike ride. She had not, but I told her to have a good day anyway. She thanked me. And left with "Have a good day sweetheart". It has been a while since I heard something like that.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 03:05 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Phoenixdeux
A few pieces of advice:

1) Try to get out of serious mode. This is serious business, but it gets old and is no fun if you only talk about the relationship. Go for it a bit. You initiate some hugs (or even more)when you see her. This is your wife. It isn't a stranger or the first date. Put yourself out there a bit. Get natural with her. I know this part is awkward, but it helps if you try to move things to a more natural phase. My wife stayed at the house ONE night, and it was amazing how quickly the awkwardness left. She never left after that point. If you have to keep seeing her for all these awkward little talk sessions I doubt it will be all that exciting for her. Just give things a go. Have her over....and soon while she's still looking positively at things.



What about OM? She said that she knows he needs to go, but hasn't said he is gone. Do I keep strict boundaries or let them slide? It's hard to be natural with your W when you have unatural boundaries in place.


Don't mention the OM and setting that boundary until the marriage counselling session, I would set it there and tell her that for you to go forward with any of this, she will need to end it, you can set your boundary there, until then, leave as is. After that first session and the response you get, you will know whether there will be additional sessions after that worth going to and remember, have her invest in the marriage counselling sessions, it is more that OK to ask her to pay for them. The idea is for her to invest in them, we value things more if we invest in them. We invest in our children: time, energy, money, etc and we love & value them above everything else. How about the next door neighbor and his passion for restoring some old vintage car to something that is worthy of car show status: he invests time, energy, money, etc. He loves & values that car, you know he does.

Human nature dictates that we love & value things that we invest alot of time, energy & resources into.

Allow her to invest in the marriage counselling, if it's important to her, it won't be an issue for her to pay for them and it shows you that she is going to invest in this process. At the mc session, set the boundary of cutting off ties with the OM, if it's important to her, that too will be part of her investing in the process of reconciliation.

Until then, no need to set boundaries about the OM, you aren't living with her, you really can't enforce anything.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 03:06 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Robx, I feel great. Thank you. You (and everyone else on this board) have been a great help.

And I know this is a process. I gave my W an unprompted phone call this morning to ask if she decided to go for the bike ride. She had not, but I told her to have a good day anyway. She thanked me. And left with "Have a good day sweetheart". It has been a while since I heard something like that.


Awesome, make sure you enjoy the day!!!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 03:12 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
Allow her to invest in the marriage counselling, if it's important to her, it won't be an issue for her to pay for them and it shows you that she is going to invest in this process.


This is mute. Our health insurance pays 100% of the MC and she knows it.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 04:04 PM
Quote:
Our health insurance pays 100% of the MC


You must be a member of Congress. laugh
Quote:
What about OM? She said that she knows he needs to go, but hasn't said he is gone. Do I keep strict boundaries or let them slide? It's hard to be natural with your W when you have unatural boundaries in place.


Personally, if it were me in this situation, I'd have her come by for dinner or something and try to get things to feel more natural. I'd put OM on the back burner for a bit. Just enjoy the night. Don't be all stiff and serious. If you have done what you were supposed to do, and get strong on your own, then OM isn't even a factor, because if my wife still had OM in the picture when she was talking reconciliation with me, as soon as I found out I'd kick her to the curb. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. You need to get to a position of power and confidence. I don't feel that yet. I feel like you are still wrapped around her finger, rather than working to wrap her around yours.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/24/09 04:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
Our health insurance pays 100% of the MC


You must be a member of Congress. laugh


No. But I would like them to stay out of my Health Insurance smile My company has been very creative in putting together a comprehensive policy.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: robx
Allow her to invest in the marriage counselling, if it's important to her, it won't be an issue for her to pay for them and it shows you that she is going to invest in this process.


This is mute. Our health insurance pays 100% of the MC and she knows it.


drop the marriage counselling talk. in fact how hard would it be to put the bad history aside, and just enjoy being together for awhile? as breakaway said, that pressure is a big turn off. you obviously can turn her on (plus now you have 2 places to have sex).
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen

. . .(plus now you have 2 places to have sex).



Take it from me, this is a GOOD thing . . . laugh
Any new movement?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/25/09 06:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Energizer Bunny
Any new movement?

Yes. BIL is in town so we were all over at her place last night. I opened up and became a lot more relaxed around her. It was good to see that she could be comfortable around BIL. When BIL and I were about to go back to my place, W asked if I would like to stay. I gave BIL keys to the house and said "See ya tomorrow." It was a good night and we have been e-mailing back and forth all day today.

--W--------------------------

D3 was asking me why I was kissing you and D5 had a huge smile when I got in the car.

--M--------------------------

What did you say…

--W--------------------------

Because I love you…….

--M--------------------------

smile Love you too.

-----------------------------

It is strange how fast things have moved. I am ignoring OM right now. She said she knew he had to go. I will give her some time to handle it and bring it up in the MC session.
Originally Posted By: tristan

It is strange how fast things have moved. I am ignoring OM right now. She said she knew he had to go. I will give her some time to handle it and bring it up in the MC session.


I think that's a wise move. Give HER a chance to make the decision and take action on her own. I have all my fingers crossed for you!

and Phoenix..why does anyone have to be wrapped around a finger? Why does he have to be in the "position of power," which assumes that one person has to be in power over the other. That's the "one up/one down" paradigm. That in order for one partner not to be down they have to be up. Instead of equality. A successful marriage in my opinion is one where the power is shared.
Quote:
Phoenix..why does anyone have to be wrapped around a finger? Why does he have to be in the "position of power," which assumes that one person has to be in power over the other.


Breakaway, you just like to argue with everyone. You like to pick apart wording instead of looking at any intent. So for your benefit:

Tristan up to this point has not even had "power" over himself. I have power..my wife has power. We each have the power to be fine on our own. We each have the power to kick the other to the curb if we cheat. Tristan has been cheated on. He needs to be in a position of "power" where his wife knows he doesn't tolerate being cheated on. A relationship isn't one person master and the other servant...but it isn't one person cuckold and the other person cuckolder either. While power can be "shared", wives (and husbands) shouldn't be shared (with other people). In order to break the hold of OM, the cheated on spouse has to be prepared to not accept anything less than all of their spouse.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/25/09 08:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Phoenixdeux
Quote:
Phoenix..why does anyone have to be wrapped around a finger? Why does he have to be in the "position of power," which assumes that one person has to be in power over the other.


Breakaway, you just like to argue with everyone. You like to pick apart wording instead of looking at any intent. So for your benefit:

Tristan up to this point has not even had "power" over himself. I have power..my wife has power. We each have the power to be fine on our own. We each have the power to kick the other to the curb if we cheat. Tristan has been cheated on. He needs to be in a position of "power" where his wife knows he doesn't tolerate being cheated on. A relationship isn't one person master and the other servant...but it isn't one person cuckold and the other person cuckolder either. While power can be "shared", wives (and husbands) shouldn't be shared (with other people). In order to break the hold of OM, the cheated on spouse has to be prepared to not accept anything less than all of their spouse.


AMEN!
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/25/09 08:16 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Originally Posted By: tristan

It is strange how fast things have moved. I am ignoring OM right now. She said she knew he had to go. I will give her some time to handle it and bring it up in the MC session.


I think that's a wise move. Give HER a chance to make the decision and take action on her own. I have all my fingers crossed for you!

and Phoenix..why does anyone have to be wrapped around a finger? Why does he have to be in the "position of power," which assumes that one person has to be in power over the other. That's the "one up/one down" paradigm. That in order for one partner not to be down they have to be up. Instead of equality. A successful marriage in my opinion is one where the power is shared.


When you word it like that breakaway, it sounds like someone needs to be controlling someone but that's not it at all.

- When tristan and his wife first started seeing each other, it was a joint decision.
- when the started dating exclusively, it was a joint decision.
- when they got engaged, married, had children, it was a joint decision.

Up until this point,they are sharing the power in the relationship.

- when is wife had an affair with the OM, she made that decision. She took control of their relationship, it wasn't a joint decision she made with tristan, she chose to see the OM, have an affair, develop a new relationship, etc. These were all her decisions. I'm sure tristan said no, he didn't like it but that didn't influence her decisions, she had taken control of the relationship and all the power.

Tristan doesn't have to be the one with all the power, in fact when viewed like that, his wife would certainly not exist in that situation long. They do need to share the power, equality needs to be brought back to their relationship but right now, that can't happen until trust is reestablished and that won't happen until the OM is out of the picture completely and his wife builds trust back through consistent action.
There seem to be the usual reading comprehension issues here...

I didn't word it that way, Phoenix worded it that way, and I commented on it. Which offended him that I was "picking apart" HIS wording instead of intent, when IMO, wording reveals intent.

And it's funny, but I know lots of people I don't argue with. Hmm. Maybe some people are just easily threatened when a woman disagrees with them on an open message board and thinks every discussion has to be "won" since they do have a one up/one down paternalistic world view.

But here I go, arguing again. Using that edumacation.

It's Friday and I'm going to have a margarita.
I'm going to go a different direction here...

GOOD FOR YOU AND YOUR WIFE. I AM HAPPY FOR YOU.

This must be scary and great at the same time. Keep it going.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/26/09 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
There seem to be the usual reading comprehension issues here...

I didn't word it that way, Phoenix worded it that way, and I commented on it. Which offended him that I was "picking apart" HIS wording instead of intent, when IMO, wording reveals intent.

And it's funny, but I know lots of people I don't argue with. Hmm. Maybe some people are just easily threatened when a woman disagrees with them on an open message board and thinks every discussion has to be "won" since they do have a one up/one down paternalistic world view.

But here I go, arguing again. Using that edumacation.

It's Friday and I'm going to have a margarita.


- didn't you say in a previous post that your husband thinks your crazy sometimes, maybe you unknowingly have an effect on people by the way you communicate with them, it's not totally impossible.
Posted By: Purple Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/27/09 12:19 AM
Quoting Robx

" didn't you say in a previous post that your husband thinks your crazy sometimes, maybe you unknowingly have an effect on people by the way you communicate with them, it's not totally impossible."

Robx, Now you're getting personal about Breakaway's sitch. I don't think that's very nice or fair and I think you should concentrate on Tristan's sitch seeing as how it's his thread. The good thing about DB is it gives a person a chance to take everyone's (very different) opinions as an opportunity to see how differently different people react in the same situation.

But then again, maybe I'm crazy too.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/27/09 04:06 AM
Purple... are you serious?!
Personal?!

This is all personal, this entire forum discussing our lives, our spouses, WAS's, emotional affairs, physical affairs, how to bring back a walk away spouse, dealing with fighting, personal turmoil, how inprove yourself in all aspects of your life.... IT'S ALL PERSONAL.

Breakaway posted something earlier stating that her husband had made an observation about her, those were her own words. It has nothing to do with being nice or fair, I stated something she had stated previously.

I have nothing against Breakaway personally, I mentioned that it's possible she has this effect on her spouse, I made an observation based on posts she makes concerning other people's comments and based on her own words, maybe it's a stretch but she seems to be a little antagonistic to some of the men posting on this forum with regards to the ideas & methods used to bring back a WAW - I have felt that at any rate. To each his own, there is no be all end all method to any of this, what works for some may not work for others. There is nothing wrong with her ideas, opinions & mindset - what is right or wrong with regards to any of this? Plus her emotions, attitudes, opinions, etc. now may be as a result of the growth & development process she went through after her EA and also in trying to deal with a spouse that isn't emotional supportive the way he should be towards her.

Plus the changes we are trying to put into effect in our own lives are not only meant to improve our lives but also improve our involvement & effect on the people in our lives.

Let it be known, I have nothing against anyone in any of these forums but just as my posts in any of these threads can read & scrutinized, breakaway and everyone can expect the same.

Hopefully this settles this, if more clarication or discussion is required on this, so be it, I'll be here to offer my 2 cents, breakaway may up the ante to $2 ;-)

(fyi - breakaway does have a sense of humor, I've seen in it on a few rare occasions)
Originally Posted By: robx
maybe it's a stretch but she seems to be a little antagonistic to some of the men posting on this forum with regards to the ideas & methods used to bring back a WAW - I have felt that at any rate.


Pot. Kettle. Black.

Look, I am not interested in engaging with you about my situation. This is Tristan's thread and I only offer what I can as it relates TO his situation. You've already offered many paragraphs of what you surmise about me, and so far you've been pretty far off the mark. (Just like you mischaracterized 25mlc in the most negative light and were also dead wrong) Instead of an apology for such gross mischaracterization, I got "if you're so great, then why doesn't your husband like you?" As if I present myself as something great. I'm not answering that or any more of your questions. Frankly...it's just getting boring.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/28/09 03:37 PM
Journaling:
Monday:

Things have changed quite drastically over this past weekend. On Friday I went out to a concert with BIL (an MD) who was in town. He did not know W's diagnosis, but asked if she had become manic after taking anti-depressants. He said that he noticed things this year that made him think that may have been the case. After the concert, BIL dropped me off at W's house. He was appreciative of this since it allowed him to have the king bed at my house.

On Saturday, I took some time to play soccer in the morning, but we spent the rest of the day together as a family. We went to the downtown mall, watched "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs", spent time walking around, a little shopping, etc. W made some great Chicken Chilli at my place on Saturday night and spent the night there. Sunday, was much of the same. We spent much of the day at my place. Just hanging out and doing normal chores. She made a wonderful chicken dish last night and stayed at my place again last night.

I tried to stay away from R talks over the weekend, but it came up a couple of times:

M: "So how has the job search been going."
W: "Its hard, people keep walking into my office when I am looking. I will probably just have to use your computer and apply to some of the online ones."
M: "Anything look interesting?"
W: "Well, the _____ has an opening for _____, but I can't apply for that for obvious reasons. You know I am thinking about just applying to Pier One. I saw they have openings for managers and I think I might like it."

My W is a Director at a fairly large Social Service agency and OM is COO at another. So it is difficult for her to find anything in her expertise without it requiring at least some contact with OM. I find her answer to this to be very reassuring.

While talking about wich MC we would like to use:

W: "So you know, I have got rid of OM from here and here." She pointed to her mind and heart respectively.
M: "Does he know that?"
W: "No."
M: "I am assumming he has an idea."
W: "Yes. I think so. I haven't been talking to him."

Before leaving this morning:
M: "Have a good day. Are you going to be by tonight?"
W: "I don't know."
M: "OK" - I nod and start to walk to the door.
W: "I love you."
M: "I love you too."

This is all happening so fast that sometimes I wonder if it is real. But things have been great. W mentioned to me that things "Feel like old times". I am just enjoying where we are at right now.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/28/09 04:29 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Originally Posted By: robx
maybe it's a stretch but she seems to be a little antagonistic to some of the men posting on this forum with regards to the ideas & methods used to bring back a WAW - I have felt that at any rate.


Pot. Kettle. Black.

Look, I am not interested in engaging with you about my situation. This is Tristan's thread and I only offer what I can as it relates TO his situation. You've already offered many paragraphs of what you surmise about me, and so far you've been pretty far off the mark. (Just like you mischaracterized 25mlc in the most negative light and were also dead wrong) Instead of an apology for such gross mischaracterization, I got "if you're so great, then why doesn't your husband like you?" As if I present myself as something great. I'm not answering that or any more of your questions. Frankly...it's just getting boring.


Thank you, I agree, it is getting boring, let's all move on instead of re-hashing the past which really doesn't get us anywhere. I agree we tend to mis-characterize (if that's even a word?) alot of people on this site including each other, I don't feel the need to get angry over this so it's time to let it go.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/28/09 04:35 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Monday:

Things have changed quite drastically over this past weekend. On Friday I went out to a concert with BIL (an MD) who was in town. He did not know W's diagnosis, but asked if she had become manic after taking anti-depressants. He said that he noticed things this year that made him think that may have been the case. After the concert, BIL dropped me off at W's house. He was appreciative of this since it allowed him to have the king bed at my house.

On Saturday, I took some time to play soccer in the morning, but we spent the rest of the day together as a family. We went to the downtown mall, watched "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs", spent time walking around, a little shopping, etc. W made some great Chicken Chilli at my place on Saturday night and spent the night there. Sunday, was much of the same. We spent much of the day at my place. Just hanging out and doing normal chores. She made a wonderful chicken dish last night and stayed at my place again last night.

I tried to stay away from R talks over the weekend, but it came up a couple of times:

M: "So how has the job search been going."
W: "Its hard, people keep walking into my office when I am looking. I will probably just have to use your computer and apply to some of the online ones."
M: "Anything look interesting?"
W: "Well, the _____ has an opening for _____, but I can't apply for that for obvious reasons. You know I am thinking about just applying to Pier One. I saw they have openings for managers and I think I might like it."

My W is a Director at a fairly large Social Service agency and OM is COO at another. So it is difficult for her to find anything in her expertise without it requiring at least some contact with OM. I find her answer to this to be very reassuring.

While talking about wich MC we would like to use:

W: "So you know, I have got rid of OM from here and here." She pointed to her mind and heart respectively.
M: "Does he know that?"
W: "No."
M: "I am assumming he has an idea."
W: "Yes. I think so. I haven't been talking to him."

Before leaving this morning:
M: "Have a good day. Are you going to be by tonight?"
W: "I don't know."
M: "OK" - I nod and start to walk to the door.
W: "I love you."
M: "I love you too."

This is all happening so fast that sometimes I wonder if it is real. But things have been great. W mentioned to me that things "Feel like old times". I am just enjoying where we are at right now.


So far so good, sounds like you're playing it cool, keep up the good work, no pressure, no R talk, just enjoy each other's time & company and have fun! I think sometimes we spend so much time working on all of this that we forget to step back and just have fun. You are definitely more pleasant to be around when you are more fun, more relaxed, she feels more secure around you, more comfortable around you and she shows that to you, you don't engage in any R talks and when you do, you do more listening and less talking, which means less pursuing, you let her fill the gaps, you let her come closer and she does this because she feels comfortable enough around you to be closer.

You're doing great!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/29/09 01:34 AM
Journaling:
Monday Evening:

After the "I love you"s this morning there was no contact between W and I till this afternoon. W sent the following e-mail:

--W------------------

Hola,

How are you??? I am doing well. I wanted to let you know that I will be staying at my place tonight. I feel like being by myself and, I am looking forward to doing some meditation and doing some thinking about our weekend. I want you to know that I truly enjoyed my time with you and our time together as a family. Thank you!!!

Love,
W

--M-----------------------------------

No problem. I understand your need to be by yourself.

I am doing well. I have a ton of work to do, but that is a good thing. I truly enjoyed the weekend as well. You were right when you mentioned it was like “old times”. There is no need to thank me, it was my pleasure. I hope you know that you are welcome over anytime.

Have a good night and I will let you know how the girls did in the morning,
- Tristan

-----------------------------------

D5 was very upset when she found out that mommy was not coming tonight; so I called to see if she wanted to talk to her. She did not answer, so I left a message. Hope it was OK I called.

I must admit I am a little dissappointed that she decided to stay at her place tonight. Although, I do understand her need to pull back a bit. I was also wondering if things were moving too fast. We will see how things go the rest of the week.
Good job anticipating the pullback. Just ride it out. Sounds like you had a great weekend.
Originally Posted By: tristan


--M-----------------------------------

No problem. I understand your need to be by yourself.

I am doing well. I have a ton of work to do, but that is a good thing. I truly enjoyed the weekend as well. You were right when you mentioned it was like “old times”. There is no need to thank me, it was my pleasure. I hope you know that you are welcome over anytime.

Have a good night and I will let you know how the girls did in the morning,
- Tristan

-----------------------------------



Perfect response. Upbeat; loving; confident. Not "needy/grabby."

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/29/09 02:50 AM
Thank you GITMA, Puppy:

The confidence may be building in me. I think I am becoming the man that writes those e-mails rather than writing those e-mails to be that man.

Make sense?
Yep!
Thank you, Frank Herbert:

"Long pretense creates reality."

That's working for you. smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/29/09 08:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Thank you, Frank Herbert:
"Long pretense creates reality."


I had to think about it. But I get it. Thanks.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Thank you, Frank Herbert:
"Long pretense creates reality."


I had to think about it. But I get it. Thanks.


I think it's another way of saying Fake It Til Ya Make It.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/29/09 08:59 PM
Journaling:
Tuesday afternoon:

Only communication today via e-mail:

--W---------------------------------------

Gracias… I called D5 this morning and talked to her. I was almost at work and realized that I had the backpacks… I am sorry about that. Hearing her little voice makes my heart melt… I told her I was going to stop by to see her today if that is ok. I hope you have a nice day.

Take care.

Love,
W

--M-------------------------------------------

Sorry about calling you last night, but D5 was asked me and I couldn’t say no. After I left a message, she got over it pretty quickly.

We didn’t do a whole lot last night. It seems once I get dinner and dishes done, there isn’t a lot of time left. I did try to “invent” a dessert for them, chocolate pudding, ice-cream, chocolate syrup, sprinkles and cookie crumbs over a warm brownie.

We will look forward to seeing you this evening, the girls will be thrilled. Hope your day goes well too.

Tristan

--W----------------------------------

No worries. I have had my phone on silence mode for a while… I am sorry about that. I did mention to her that I was staying at my place in the morning but I know it is hard, I missed them tremendously. However, I am glad to hear that she did well after you left the vm.

Your dessert invention sounds great… can I have one tonight smile???

I am also looking forward to spending time with you guys. Dinner is on me. I will buy the ingredients to make some meatloaf and mash potatoes… what about that? It is fall after all, we need fall food…

--M----------------------------------

Sounds great! I’ll take care of the dishes and dessert. Since you are stopping by the store, could you buy the pudding (and possibly eggs) please?

Gracias

-------------------------------------

I am looking forward to an enjoyable evening.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/29/09 09:04 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Thank you, Frank Herbert:
"Long pretense creates reality."


I had to think about it. But I get it. Thanks.


I think it's another way of saying Fake It Til Ya Make It.


Exactly what I thought.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
I did try to “invent” a dessert for them, chocolate pudding, ice-cream, chocolate syrup, sprinkles and cookie crumbs over a warm brownie.



Your dessert invention sounds great… can I have one tonight smile???




Tristan...you sly, sly dog... wink grin
Tristan,

Any chance your wife would be willing to do Retrovaille? It can break you loose of some old patterns, show you new ones, and really get things going in the right direction, like a much needed boost. You seem to need guidance in relating to each other which is totally reasonable. But MC is a slower process (still valuable) and in some ways it is not very "efficient" when you want to get things moving but aren't sure how to, and you're concerned about rushing too fast as well.

Frankly, we all need some tools when it comes to reconciling and for us, we were piecing for several months. It was Retrovaille that enabled me to feel comfortable saying "div busted" even though I felt close and committed before. I now feel a lot "safer" if that makes sense.

And the weekend does not have to cost you anything - though they will ask for an anonymous donation. (I know this for certain.) The weekend will open your eyes and give you hope, if it's like it was for us and the many couples we attended with. Then you'll have follow up work to do and more sessions are included and all of that is a really valuable thing to do.

Just a suggestion, but one that I cannot stress enough. It's one thing to see changes in your WAS...it's quite another to be happily married to them again.

J-
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/30/09 03:31 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Tristan,

Any chance your wife would be willing to do Retrovaille? It can break you loose of some old patterns, show you new ones, and really get things going in the right direction, like a much needed boost. You seem to need guidance in relating to each other which is totally reasonable. But MC is a slower process (still valuable) and in some ways it is not very "efficient" when you want to get things moving but aren't sure how to, and you're concerned about rushing too fast as well.

Frankly, we all need some tools when it comes to reconciling and for us, we were piecing for several months. It was Retrovaille that enabled me to feel comfortable saying "div busted" even though I felt close and committed before. I now feel a lot "safer" if that makes sense.

And the weekend does not have to cost you anything - though they will ask for an anonymous donation. (I know this for certain.) The weekend will open your eyes and give you hope, if it's like it was for us and the many couples we attended with. Then you'll have follow up work to do and more sessions are included and all of that is a really valuable thing to do.

Just a suggestion, but one that I cannot stress enough. It's one thing to see changes in your WAS...it's quite another to be happily married to them again.

J-




Hi 25,

We did A New Beginning retreat ( http://www.familydynamics.net/anbexp.htm )back in July. It was very powerful and both my W and I thought we were good after that. Obviously, it did not work out that way. Do you know if Retrovaille is much different?

Thanks.
Tristan,

I can only speak for two types of workshops. The ones we went to when we were first married, which were tune ups for happy couples. We loved them! They were like mini-honeymoons.

Then Retrovaille - which was for a very diff situation. I am not familiar with the program you attended but glanced at the site. Seems to me, if you went and found it helpful or powerful but did not follow thru, well....you do have to follow thru or NO program will change your M for long. The "honeymoon" effect only lasts so long and then the work starts so you need the tools they provide, and you need to use them and use them until they're 2nd nature.

For us, it was Retrovaille. But whichever you attend, or both, follow thru with it.

We missed a follow up session when mil was visiting (she has terminal cancer and she required 24/7 focussed attention) and it was very stressful for me and h and our kids, but obviously the time with her was valuable and necessary. Don't mean to complain but combining her visit with missing a session right after, was bad for us. It showed. But we saw that, and we learned. We really DO have to keep at it and follow thru but my God, the rewards are pretty impressive.

That's all I can say for it. You seem understandably hesitant to jump right back into your m, but we all know you love her and it seems she's trying to stay out of the fog.

So, why not go to something like Retrovaille or what you attended before if you think this time you guys will keep at it? I don't see how it can hurt. Good luck, you deserve this.
J-
Posted By: Lotus Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/30/09 06:14 AM
Tristan,

You and your wife sound like you get along so well. I agree with 25 years MLC, Retrouvaille would be a good choice for you. And it is not the same as what you did before. It is working on honest, open, and safe communication. building understanding. It's a wonderful experience.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/30/09 01:34 PM
25, Lotus:

I looked into it. Doesn't look like we could really attend one until early next year due to the availability in our city. However, it will probably be a good time. That will have given us almost 6 months since the prior retreat.

You 2 are correct that we get along very well. Its strange to be in this situation, but we are.

Thank you.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/30/09 01:45 PM
Journaling:
Wednesday morning:
Last evening was relaxing and fun. We made dinner, talked, put the girls to bed, and then she started looking at old photos. Ones from when we were dating through our first daughter being born. We then started looking through things that she had stored in her "Memory Box". They included cards, ticket stubs, trinkets, etc. from different holidays and special occassions. I could tell that she was somewhat emotional and asked how she was feeling. "A little sad, but it is good for me to see this stuff." was her reply.

She also said that she has been a little depressed the last couple days. She thinks it may be that it was due to her being a little erratic with her meds the past several days. Hopefully that is it.

She went to her place last night to sleep. But said she would bring some stuff to stay at our place tonight.

Things seem to be progressing in the right direction. But for some reason I am a little down this morning; perhaps it is the weather or the fact that W says she has been a little depressed lately. Oh well, can't let that stop me from getting my work done.
It makes sense that she's a litle sad. You guys have been through a lot. She's probably feeling a little guilty and a little duped that the grass isn't greener.

She's staying with you tonight? SWEET!!!!
I hope tonight goes well. You are on the right path, it is just going to be bumpy. As much as I would like to get where you are, I think it is still a long, long road to get back to where you want to be.

Stay upbeat...you've had great success so far.
A long time is right. The "bomb" came for me nearly a year ago. Looking back I can see there were some issues as long as two years before that.

Tristan, didn't your stuff start nearly three years ago as well with your "bomb" coming in January?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/30/09 06:49 PM
The best I can gather, the EA began about 3 years ago. That would be shortly after our relationship hit a real rough spot (much of which was my fault). OM left his W 2 years ago and is still in mediation on the dissolution. I started getting signs about that time. And, yes, the first bomb hit in January. I think W realized she hit the point of no return about a year ago now.
so you know Tristan, I'm sure my h felt guilt and pain many times I'm not aware of, or so I think. Can't let that into our hearts, except from the point of view of compassion for them. Don't get dark b/c she is, but be aware.

At Retrovaille, rather unexpectedly, my h began to cry really hard and was so ashamed and remorseful about who he had hurt (ie. me and our children and his R's with our d's need some serious repair work). I ached for him as well but when I look back, I had told him at the time that this damage would happen. No matter, I'm not saying "look, I was right!" I'm saying there's some amnesia and you have to stay in the now, and sometimes all you can do is cry with them, and help them heal their damaged R's without taking responsibility for it. Your w will have to get well and do what she can to not inflict pain on others every time she has some of her own.

Oh, I told an LBSer W friend of mine about H's "moment of truth" and she asked me if I then "reminded him of how long he had been hurting us" and all the damage he had done and crap he put us through. WTH? THEN?? I was shocked that she thought I should rub salt in his wounds. He was already crying (2nd time in 3 decades) and not asking me for anything. My gf wanted to punish, and guess what? That gf is still an LBSer and I think she always will be.

Forgiving the WAS and letting go of our pain is something we all have to do -but I never saw it growing up. It's a learned skill, believe me. The real work is only starting my friend. But the work is not sheer drudgery either. But that thing about forgiving and letting go...every successful marriage includes forgiveness somewhere along the way.

It will be essential. For now though, you have enough on your plate. Good luck, and see what you can attend or learn in the meantime so you don't reconcile without any new tools. Wherever you get the tools, get them...in fact, maybe try at least one session with a DB coach about Piecing? Just a thought. Again, good luck
J-
Great post, 25.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/30/09 09:29 PM
Thank you J (25),

For some reason (I can not explain it now) I have not had too much trouble with the forgiveness up to now. My IC asked in my last session "Where do you put all of your anger? Any other man sitting in your position would be hopping mad." I thought about it for a while and said "I really don't know."

I am afraid that at some point I will need to deal with this. This morning I was a little angry, not about the affair, but about how much of our savings she spen on getting and furnishing this new place. I know I will have to deal with it at some point. But, as you said, I have enough on my plate right now. Why worry about it if I am not there yet.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/30/09 09:38 PM
Journaling:
Wednesday afternoon:
Things are continuing to get better. W is planning on staying over tonight. I am stopping by the video store for all of us to watch this evening. I am happy about all of this, but I also feel like something isn't quite right. Is it real this time? Have we really hit bottom? What does commitment mean to her?

I guess only time will tell and I must keep faith.
Best of luck tristan. Make sure to let us know how tonight goes. My advice would be go with the flow and don't let too much nervousness creep in....take it for what it is and enjoy!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 09/30/09 09:57 PM
Originally Posted By: wanttobebetter
Best of luck tristan. Make sure to let us know how tonight goes. My advice would be go with the flow and don't let too much nervousness creep in....take it for what it is and enjoy!


Thank you WTBB. I am not nervous anymore. By the way, she stayed over Thur-Sun of last week and we wer intimate each of those nights. It was great; we were both very into it. I think we are very comfortable with each other. But what I am concerned about is slipping into a funk where we are neither together nor apart. Sometimes we stay together, sometimes we don't. I want to see that she is committed to making this work.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/01/09 01:30 AM
Tonight did not go as planned. And I am now wondering if I have been handling myself correctly. W and girls were at our place when I got home. I greeted everyone. W and I gave each other a quick kiss.

Things were going well until D5 asks:
D5: "Mommy, can we stay at the pink house tonight?"
D3: "Yeah, I want to stay at the pink house."
W: "Don't you want to stay here with daddy tonight."
D5: "No. I want to stay at the pink house."

I could tell W was conflicted and was not replying.

M: "So what do you want to do."
W: "Isn't it important to give them consistency. It is their night to be at my place."
M: "We can talk about it later."

So a little while later we get a moment to talk.
M: "So you are going back to your place tonight?"
W: "I think it is for the best. You are welcome to join us."
M: "No. I don't think so."
W: "Why not?"
M: "I don't want to get comfortable in this limbo. Neither be together nor seperated."
W: "You mean me."
M: "Either of us. We should be woking toward one or the other. What is the goal here?"
W: "I want to be together. But I am not ready to move in yet. Are you?"
M: "Well I don't want you to move in if you are not ready."
<silence>
W: "I think we need to get that counselor to work throuh are issues."
M: "OK. Are you ready for that."
W: <thinks for a while and looks to get a little emotional> "Yes. I guess."
M: "OK. Lets do that."
W: "Why aren't you willing to come over?"
M: "Can you call me later so we can talk about it."
W: "Yes."

So I read a book to D5 and W gets stuff ready to go. I help get them packed in the car. Before getting in herself, W gives me a long hug which I recipricate.

W: "I wish there was a book for this. I don't know what to do."
M: "Are you committed to me?"
W: "Yes"
M: "That is my biggest question right now. Are you committed?"
W: <looks me in the eye> "Tristan. I am committed. I just need time. I have all this stuff swirling around in my head."
M: "You're going to call tonight?"
W: "Yes." - gives me a kiss on the cheek

So here I am still alone and it sucks. I want to be a family again 2 parents committed under 1 roof, is that too much to ask for? Am I doing the right thing?

6 weeks ago W and I were sleeping in the same bed and she told me "She wanted to explore a relationship with OM". Today we are living in seperate houses and she says "She is committed to me." Is that progress?

@Coach: Am I handling this OK or am I still puking all over my shoes?
She said she was committed. She asked you to go. You are making huge strides.

Screw it! Go to the pink house and be with your family. Sleep with your wife.
as to your earlier question about anger...

It still pops up for me when I see photos of another event H missed out on, or he doesnt' know d20's friends b/c was gone when she met the girl and now he's way behind on who's who in her life. That matters a lot to teens b/c their friends are their world. When I see what we WERE earning before he went nuts and took a 90% pay cut for a year, and so far has not matched his earlier income and screwed my career plans up for awhile....yes, I get angry and have to let it go again. For a long time, I let go of something on a daily basis. Literally.

Recently I saw equipment in our garage that we will NOT need here. He bought it for himself to hunt/fish/ski with the guys up there, his "heroes" as I referred to them, & it still irks me. So yes, anger and regret about their unilateral choices, will come. The main thing was that I was usually able to enjoy the "now" (as in "Be here NOW") and be in the moment and if it weren't for that, nothing else could have happened. I think you get this.

If you prepare some ahead of time it'll help keep you from blurting out something that really is not appropriate at the time. Believe me, it can happen at the worst moments. E.G., Some weird reminder of your pain will flare up at a time when you are actually happy, and snatch that happy moment right out of your hands.

And when you are making choices about finances and geography or things with the girl's future, or Yours, and your activities you enjoy- there might be a tendency to feel entitled to have your way on more things...as in, "hey, 'would be WAS' you owe me big time..." and in way you'd be "right" ... but the question will always need to be whether you are doing something good for the M or not. Don't expect to be able to mete out justice and be happily married.

As to the present sitch, it's odd and interesting. Why didn't you go over there? I'm just curious that you drew a line in the sand on that, when she was inviting you and the d's surprised you both with their request. Why not help her move out, when the time comes? And perhaps you need a timeline internally at least, perhaps not shared with her YET, but a timeline so YOU know you won't be in limbo forever. At some point she'll need a warning too. As in the deadline approaches. FWIW I think any pro-m workshop or seminar that gives you tools for now would be really good. You could damage your chances ultimately if you blow this time period and she's asking by saying she wishes there was a book on this. THERE ARE and there are tools for this.

Avail yourself of them. Good luck, there IS hope obviously.
J-
Originally Posted By: tristan
For some reason (I can not explain it now) I have not had too much trouble with the forgiveness up to now. My IC asked in my last session "Where do you put all of your anger? Any other man sitting in your position would be hopping mad." I thought about it for a while and said "I really don't know."

I am afraid that at some point I will need to deal with this. This morning I was a little angry, not about the affair, but about how much of our savings she spen on getting and furnishing this new place. I know I will have to deal with it at some point. But, as you said, I have enough on my plate right now. Why worry about it if I am not there yet.


I've read a lot about this since I've noticed myself being more concerned and less angry than I would thought that I should be. (I've gone back and forth but I'm not angry and resentful like most would think.

It seems that when we are in "Crisis Mode" we can set that stuff aside and focus on how to get through the situation. Once we feel that we've safely made it through the crisis though, the anger and resentment can come rushing in. I'm surprised at how I can read so much stuff that my (and apparently your) IC doesn't seem to be aware of. (I really question the 3 IC's that I have gone to).

From what I gather one thing that can help is trying to get how it happened, what the WAS went through, and make a decision to forgive. You won't really be able to do that until they ask though.

So...once you feel that she truly wants to be with you for good...watch out. It's likely that you'll find the anger.
I would agree. It is amazing what you can push aside and become numb too. It is almost like I am in triage mode...stay alive for now..but as EB said, the rest will have to be dealt with at some time. How you both deal with that anger will likely be very important to patching things up.
Tristan: I don't think your night went all that bad. You may not have gotten exactly what you wanted out of it but you communicated well and your W was receptive to you.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/01/09 01:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Energizer Bunny
I'm surprised at how I can read so much stuff that my (and apparently your) IC doesn't seem to be aware of. (I really question the 3 IC's that I have gone to).



I actually like my IC. And I think he realizes what is going on, I think he asks these questions because they are things that I should be thinking about and not simply ignoring. I think he is trying to save me from being a doormat and, much like Robx, is making me realize that my needs are important too. He wants to make sure that I do not sacrifice these needs in order to save the relationship.

He also advises me to be very careful about having this relationship in limbo. Each of us going over to each others place to spend the night, but not being really committed to each other. He says it can be difficult on the children. If they are exposed to it for a long period of time it becomes engrained in them that it is a "normal" relationship and may have a difficult time with their own relationships later in life. However, he said this in the context of there being an OM in the picture. So his views may be slightly different now.

This is what I was struggling with last night. She says that she is committed to getting us back together. My gut is telling me that things really are changing. She is no longer apprehensive about intimacy. In fact, she is now seeking it and really enjoying it again. This is something that became absent for a period of time. I do believe OM has been pushed aside. So I took this into account and figured it that we are moving in the right direction. I called her and asked if the invitation was still open. She said she was hoping I would change my mind. I headed over to her place and we had an enjoyable evening. Thanks 25 and EB, your posts made me reconsider my decission.

Back to my IC, he was the one that recognized W should be on mood stabilizers (as our MC) before her IC or psyche did. And although he had problems gaining my W's trust, I do find him to be a pretty good counselor. My W (one who is trained in counseling) also said that he is good, but she never really could feel comfortable with him. I think a big part of that was because he told my W that he found relationships like hers with OM tended to be "plastic", "not real", and simply "brain chemistry" when she was not ready to hear it. Anyway, I see him today. I am interested to hear his perspective on where he thinks we are now.
I wish I could get my W to an IC. For her own good most of all...not even to put us back together.

Glad your night went well....good work.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/01/09 03:13 PM
I received this e-mail this morning. I am at a loss right now. I don't want to live my life in a relationship like this.

--W---------------------------------

Thanks for coming last evening. I really enjoy spending time with you. Making love under the covers while half dressed was fun…:)

Tristan, I am thinking about tonight. I am having the feeling that you want us to be back in the same house soon and I am not sure I am ready for that. I want our family to be a family again but I want to be done right. I have a feeling that we are moving this too fast. I don’t want to find myself in the same state I was before I moved out. I am thinking that sleeping together every day and having each other over all the time is not what I want at this time. I want contact but I also want my space, if that makes sense. I know this may be confusing, but I want to date you again, I don’t want us to move in together yet. You are welcome to come over and visit but we should slow down the staying over each others place.


Please let me know your thoughts.

Love,
W

--M1----------------------

Hi,

Thank you, I enjoyed last night too.

I understand and respect your concerns about moving too fast. I will take some time and digest the rest if that is OK. It is a lot to contemplate and I need to get some work done.

Take care,
-Tristan

--M2----------------------

Are you still planning on setting up an appointment for a marriage counselor today? I think it would be good forum where we could discuss these things. I want to be respectful to your need for space and time to heal. I think a good counselor could help us find the right path to follow to give you the time and space you need while also healing our marriage.

Thank you,
-Tristan
Well I know you didn't expect that. I know it is not what you want to hear but there wasn't a whole lot of negative in her email. She has some points and she is communicating with you. I really see a lot of hope in your sitch.
Tristan,

I know that has to hurt, but she's actually making a lot of sense. The worst thing you could do would be to have a "false start" and be right back to Square One again. My wife originally said something very similar, adding that she didn't want to "give people false hope," which she then clarified as meaning our kids and her parents. She's being cautious, which is also sensible.

I also think you handled your response VERY well. The MC can help you navigate these sensitive waters.

Just THANK her for being honest with you, and see if you can address these things in the next MC session.

Puppy
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/01/09 03:43 PM
I agree with both posters above. She is SCARED, and keeping her space/slowing things down a bit helps to keep the pressure off her. A return to pressure will mean a return to *Walking*.

You handled it very well. Don't push or pressure, be satisfied with baby steps. In my sitch, there were definitely times when one or both of us needed some 'away time' to process, to deal with feelings, etc., as we moved closer together. We were lucky, in a way, that I was gone so many weekends dealing with the death of my grandmother as it gave us that space and never let the pressure build too high.

Don't let this throw you - it's a GOOD thing.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/01/09 03:45 PM
I agree that her thoughts have some maturity and wisdom. She wants to date you, that is golden. She wants a new and improved marriage. You have been given a great opportunity to have a "mulligan."

Quote:
I also think you handled your response VERY well.


yep, good job not puking on your shoes. laugh


Validate her thoughts and feelings, date her and go to MC. it's all goodness.

Cheers
Posted By: mindfull Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/01/09 03:51 PM
Tristan:

You are such a man of integrity and grace.

Be proud. You're doing just fine, and your W WILL appreciate all of this someday soon. Patience.

Great job!
Amen to what they said. You're not really in limbo, you're in "Piecing" and in a way I found that stage very hopeful but "not done"...

We are never "done" with working on our marriages (unless we end them) as they are all works in progress like we are as people. But as long as you are caring for yourself and not just her, seems like this was a mature thing for her to say.

In a way, she's simply articulating what you feel but maybe it was hard to hear b/c it came from her(?) and not you. Just wondering.
ANyhow, I'm crossing my fingers for you b/c things are truly encouraging, on the whole. Realistically this is the best case scenario. In our ideal worlds, the WAS would "wake up and get it" overnight. But that's not realistic. She's taking this the way it's most likely to succeed I think. But you certainly do need a good 3rd party to help. Must it be one and the same? I'm only asking b/c you say she was previously uncomfortable with the one you have, although he does sound good for both of you. I generally think it's good b/c you'll know that the mc is pro-M, but if you could find another one would she feel safer?

j-
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/01/09 07:01 PM
Thank you all. I will admit that it hurt when I first received it. But when I went back and read it again, it does make a lot of sense. IC said that I also need to take it slow in order to process the hurt that I have been through. He believes it will help with handling the anger on the other side of this. He also said that I need it to gain confidence It is strange that he is focused on my anger and resentment when it currently isn't a problem for me.

I am reassured by my W response as well.

--W----------------------

Yes, I will let you know.

Let’s talk when I come back.

Thanks for understanding and caring. Caring is everything….

PS
I was thinking about our conversation last evening about love and found this Shakespeare note in a little book at work. Like you said love may be hard to define but we know it when we see it. Shakespeare called it “the glorious intangible”. “Love is the will do and the soul to dare. Its two parts caring, and three parts passion. It’s people who give more than they take. Love accept no boundaries, offers no excuses, overcomes all odds, and comes through smiling”.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/01/09 07:14 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Must it be one and the same? I'm only asking b/c you say she was previously uncomfortable with the one you have, although he does sound good for both of you. I generally think it's good b/c you'll know that the mc is pro-M, but if you could find another one would she feel safer?


No. The old one would not take us back as a MC even if we asked. He is now my IC and said he can't be both. I think W and I agreed on one that was recomended by a pro-M website; so I think we may have that part taken care of.

And you are right; I think she did articulate what I was thinking. But I didn't act on it because it is just too comfortable when I am with her.

Thank you j.
Tristan, I know this is all a struggle, but I agree with the others who've said this is a good thing, the way your W is reacting. Frankly, due to the mental health issues involved, I would be a LOT more worried if she had broken down and said, oh, I was so bad, just let me come home....and just came flying back in the door thinking all is well.

I think her behavior shows how seriously she is taking this, and that she DOESN'T want to simply "react" to her feelings. I think it shows a lot of growth and hope. Don't forget Tristan, while you're dealing with the fallout of her bipolar sitch, etc, she is the one living it. That's a heavy burden I would imagine. I have to look back at my own sitch and it's a sickening feeling to see how out of control parts of it were.

This is in no way meant to discount your feelings and your suffering through what she's done..and I think the reason your IC keeps mentioning anger that haven't felt yet, is because he knows you will at some point. This I also relate to...when my H finally started to come around and the tension level decreased at home, and it began to feel "safe" then my anger bloomed up big time. It's tough. Because he's trying, and he has issues, and, and, and....and well, what about me?? Does this mean he gets a free pass? That's how it feels. So at least you have someone to help you get through those feelings so you don't torpedo the ship later.

Anyway, one step at a time. I just wrote this so you could take courage and hope from what's happening. Hang in there.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/02/09 01:08 PM
Journaling:
W is headed to Phoenix for the weekend to visit cousin and see Grand Canyon for first time. I have the girls and trying to figure out what our plans should be for the weekend. I have some work to do around the house, but would also like to do something unique with them. Went over to W place to swap cars for the weekend last night.

She cooked me some dinner. I played with the girls for a little bit and then helped put them to bed. W and I sat down with a glass of wine and talked for a bit afterward. She said she is starting to understand her mood cycles, but can't control them. Before she said she had no idea where her mood was going. I told her that understanding them is good and she should see the psych and describe them to him.

We talked more about MC and agreed on one to try. I am going to make the appointment today, she is busy getting ready to go on her trip. Things are going well between us. The kiss when I left last night was passionate.

W: "It does feel like we are dating."
M: "That's a good thing, right?"
W: "Yes it is. Have a goodnight sweetheart."
M: "Goodnight."

Although, I did not want to get here. I should be thankful for what I have. I have the opportunity to date my W all over again. Her birthday is next weekend, what should I do? I am thinking the theatre.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/02/09 01:14 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Anyway, one step at a time. I just wrote this so you could take courage and hope from what's happening. Hang in there.


Thank you breakaway. I am much better with her e-mail today. It just felt a little rejected at first. After it sunk in, I realize that it was not that at all.
May I suggest a comedy? Otherwise you may both read into a drama if it relates to M or R's.....laughter is a wonderful bonding experience.

Or a drama that just doesn't go near where you two are. Make sense? And also, if one of her love languages is "gifts" get something tangible too. Doesn't have to be a biggie but one b-day H got me tickets to a show but I recall, (hey, I was younger then!) thinking "what about a GIFT?" Silly now but a lot of women like a "thing" to wear or know they got even though the dang shows cost more. Just a thought. Do you know your w's love languages? If you have no idea what I'm referring to, I highly suggest you read "The Five Love Languages" by Chapman.

A real eye opener for me.

Take care, we're all rooting for you and I agree with what Breakway & Puppy said. It'd be a lot scarier if she were rushing this. But of course it makes you wonder about her commitment. In reality, it probably reflects MORE commitment on her end, to take it slowly. She's not brushing off what the heck happened here, you know?

J-
I think you are on a good path Tristan. Have a good weekend with your girls.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/02/09 08:19 PM
J-

Thank you for the advice. Not much in town for theatre, so I went with the orchestra. It has been quite some time since we have been there and we have a really good orchestra in town.

As for the gift, I think I did well. My W just got her ears pierced a couple of months ago. I believe a few posts back I spoke of the significance of turtles. She has a silver turtle pendant that I rarely see her go without. I found a pair of earrings that I believe match it very well. Hope she likes them.

We have a MC session set up for the 15th. He is very experienced. A clinical professor at one of the local med schools and is trained in Gestalt. My IC says that may be good for us; has anyone tried it?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/03/09 03:55 PM
I think I need to detach more, but can we it be done while "dating"? W is in Arizona this weekend and I miss her.

I plan taking the girls to a pumpkin festival tonight with a group of single parents. However, since my W and I have started getting back together, I haven't done a whole lot for myself with my time away the girls. In fact I have often found myself with them and W during that time, which I enjoy, but I also think it is sliding me back to the same emotional spot where I was before the seperation, which was not healthy.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/03/09 04:25 PM
Tristan so far things are going good with you so the only additional advice I will give you is this, now that you've paved the way to a situation where you two are seeing each other again and spending time together, time apart is a good thing. Give her the gift of missing you, you don't have to see each other everyday, it's actually a good thing, time apart does make the heart grow fonder. If you start complaining verbally or more importantly through body language that you want to spend more time together and you don't spend enough time together and you don't like that she spends time at her place when you want her to stay over, it will appear clingy & needy, it will flick switches inside of her that kill attraction between the two of you and that would kill the progress you've made thus far.

Give her the gift of missing you, continue with getting a life and spending time on yourself for yourself, it's healthy, gives you space that you need as you can tell it might feel like you're spending too much time together and your expectations are increasing when this is a time a of no pressure & no expectations.

Start enjoying your life, you deserve it, trust me, give her some space, get a life, spend time on yourself, show her & yourself that you have a life other than trying to fix this marriage, it's attractive to her and it's important for your self-esteem.

Other than that, keep up the good work!
What rob said.

This woman's opinion: a guy that knows stuff I don't know, who's interested and passionate about things that resonate with HIM, not just things that might impress ME ... THAT man is very attractive to me. You don't have to go overboard with the time spent, IMHO, because obviously that can be a problem too when you have committed to a family. But spend what time you do have wisely, and tap into some passion (I don't mean sexual, just life passion) that doesn't depend on your wife and kids.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/04/09 02:05 AM
So we didn't go to the pumpkin festival because D5 wanted to go for a bike ride instead. The trees are starting to turn and there is a nice trail down through the river valley here, so I thought good idea. Well, I should have thought about it a little more. D5 just started to ride a two-wheeler about a month ago. D3 has a bike with training wheels. The trail is an old canal tow path that has been paved. Keeping track of those 2 with water and big drops on either side of the trail with some hills became quite nerve racking. However, they handled it just fine. It was a good day.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/04/09 06:46 PM
Journaling:
Sunday:
I don't know if it is the recent sessions with the IC where he asks me about my anger or what. But this weekend, I have found myself having angry thoughts toward W. We spent 3 years saving for a down payment for a home in a good school district for girls. In the past 8 months we have depleted most of it. Me trying to save our marriage; her trying to escape from it. I think about where we will be starting from even if we do get back together and it really angers me. Then I think "Do I want to take the chance of all of this happening again?" For some reason my answer is still "Yes." But I wonder "Why?"
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/05/09 02:32 AM
Journaling:
Sunday Evening:
With W in Arizona tonight, it was just girls and I for our Sunday night movie "Indian in the Cupboard". Girls were very attentive. A little surprising, D3 still has some problems sitting through an entire movie. The movie was OK, but it had a couple quotes at the end that caught my attention.

Little Bear (the Indian) is explaining the path to manhood as an Iroqois Indian. "The boy is taken to the wilderness and left there alone for an entire year. After the seasons change, he returns back to the tribe as a man." How many of us fell we are doing the same thing. We have been left in the wilderness alone (some for years) by are spouses. However, when we walk out, we will have grown into something more than what we were before.

Before returning back to his life, Little Bear asks the boy "What about the Iroquois? Are we always a great people?". The boy thinks about it for a while and responds "Yes. The Iroquois remain a great people. However, the times are not always good." The fact that I am not in good times doesn't mean that I can't be a great person. I sometimes forget that.
Good analogy.

This is our year in the woods. I imagine that we will all be changed by our experience forever. I know I will be.

It's good that you are ablo feel your anger and yet still make a conscious decision that your family is still worth taking the chance for. Good for you. I think that's very healthy.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/06/09 02:54 AM
Journaling:
Monday Evening:
My W has been in Arizona since Friday. I haven't heard from her since she left. I miss her.

These past few nights, I have been reading Coach's story from the beginning. I have made it through 2nd quarter's timeout. What an inspiring story. Thanks Coach, you help me stay strong. Thanks to Puppy, P2 and the many other experienced lurkers out there as well. You are helping many more with each post than you may believe.

Cheers!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/06/09 03:12 AM
Originally Posted By: Energizer Bunny
It's good that you are ablo feel your anger and yet still make a conscious decision that your family is still worth taking the chance for. Good for you. I think that's very healthy.


Thanks EB. Although I don't know if I am conciously saying yes to reconciling. Its my feelings, other than anger, that are compelling me to reconcile. My conscious mind is the one wondering "Why would you do this?" However, after considering it, I am sure it would come to confirm the decission smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/06/09 12:53 PM
I need advice. My gut is wrenching. Last night W, who is still in Arizona, called daycare provider, also a mutual friend of ours, to ask how the girls were doing. She told her that she called her to not upset the girls. If that was her concern, why wouldn't she just call me at work or after the girls go to bed? WTH is going on? A week ago she is telling me she wants to be a family again, we are ML, and things were great. Today she can't even call me to find out how the kids are doing? I don't get it.

The last time we talked was good. I said goodbye with a passionate kiss. I said have a safe trip. After that, I set up a MC session and left a VM to tell her when it was. There has been no communication since.

I want to text her something. Maybe just something simple: "Hope all is well. Have a safe trip." (she is flying back today). I would really like to invite her over to see the girls when she arrives, but I don't know how late her flight arrives. Plus I know that it would be taken as pursuing. However, is the text a bad idea?

Can someone give me a reasonable explanation of what is going through her head. My mind is wandering to bad places right now.
Hi Tristan,

My immediate hunch would be "OM contact," but it could be simple Martian rubber-band pullback. Although that's normally more associated with men, some women do it too; does she often pull back emotionally after getting close to you?

If you text her, I wouldn't do a "how are you"; I would do more of a "Tristan's Getting-A-Life" one, such as "Hope all is well with you; just wanted to let you know you may not be able to reach me for a few hours this afternoon, as I need to do something, but I hope you have a safe trip" -- or something similar. Be mysterious.

I know you're anxious, but don't assume the worst. Several months ago, two phone #s kept showing up on my wife's cellphone bill, and I thought "only ONE Of them can be her new divorced GF," but it turned out that one was the woman's home phone, and one was her cellphone.

Don't assume.

Puppy
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/06/09 01:10 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
I need advice. My gut is wrenching. Last night W, who is still in Arizona, called daycare provider, also a mutual friend of ours, to ask how the girls were doing. She told her that she called her to not upset the girls. If that was her concern, why wouldn't she just call me at work or after the girls go to bed? WTH is going on? A week ago she is telling me she wants to be a family again, we are ML, and things were great. Today she can't even call me to find out how the kids are doing? I don't get it.

The last time we talked was good. I said goodbye with a passionate kiss. I said have a safe trip. After that, I set up a MC session and left a VM to tell her when it was. There has been no communication since.

I want to text her something. Maybe just something simple: "Hope all is well. Have a safe trip." (she is flying back today). I would really like to invite her over to see the girls when she arrives, but I don't know how late her flight arrives. Plus I know that it would be taken as pursuing. However, is the text a bad idea?

Can someone give me a reasonable explanation of what is going through her head. My mind is wandering to bad places right now.


Needy, clingy, pursuing, ring a bell?
All unattractive, insecure traits, all will make her run away from you.

Do these things and drive her away.

You can't control her, let her do what she wants to do.
You can only control you.

If she is contacting OM, what can you do about it anyways?

Remember, you weren't going to set boundaries about the OM until marriage counselling and you were still waffling on that one too.

No contact, let her contact you.

I hope you will listen to this one, it will make a difference.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/06/09 01:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Hi Tristan,

My immediate hunch would be "OM contact," ...

Don't assume.

Puppy


Thanks Puppy crazy
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/06/09 01:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Hi Tristan,

My immediate hunch would be "OM contact," but it could be simple Martian rubber-band pullback. Although that's normally more associated with men, some women do it too; does she often pull back emotionally after getting close to you?

If you text her, I wouldn't do a "how are you"; I would do more of a "Tristan's Getting-A-Life" one, such as "Hope all is well with you; just wanted to let you know you may not be able to reach me for a few hours this afternoon, as I need to do something, but I hope you have a safe trip" -- or something similar. Be mysterious.

I know you're anxious, but don't assume the worst. Several months ago, two phone #s kept showing up on my wife's cellphone bill, and I thought "only ONE Of them can be her new divorced GF," but it turned out that one was the woman's home phone, and one was her cellphone.

Don't assume.

Puppy


I would say still no contact with her.

Tristan, you have alot of expectations and nothing has really changed other than you're seeing her more regularly now.

No expectations, no expectations, no expectations.

If she does feel safe around you, she won't be around you.

If she senses you are insecure, angry, hostile, etc.
She won't want to be around you.

No contact.

You are dark till she returns and when she does return, let her initiate contact and you can gauge her form by her communication with you.
I'm suggesting that he be mysteriously unavailable when she does (return). That was my point in the "contact." If there's a way for him to communicate that other than via a text message, I'd be all for it; is there a place to leave her a physical note, and have her come back to no-Tristan??
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/06/09 01:46 PM
Thanks Rob, Puppy:

And I too am assuming OM contact. It sucks. I know that I shouldn't assume, but what other reasonable reason could be for this erratic behavior? I wish I could explain it some other way, but I can't. I will go with the NC. Thanks again for the 2x4's.

Now what should I do with these to orchestra tickets I have for her birthday (Saturday). I asked if she wanted to go out that night and she did say yes. I guess I will play it by ear, but I need to line up a babysitter for that night soon.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/06/09 02:19 PM
Quote:
Last night W, who is still in Arizona, called daycare provider, also a mutual friend of ours, to ask how the girls were doing. She told her that she called her to not upset the girls. If that was her concern, why wouldn't she just call me at work or after the girls go to bed? WTH is going on?


Maybe she wanted a third party perspective or a woman's perspective on how the kids are doing. Maybe she didn't want to bother you with a mundane call about the kids.

If you really want to know then ask. If not let it go. Does it really matter? One quote here that helped me was this, "The people here who have success are the ones who see the good in the situation."

It does come across as needy and controlling. Don't make decisions based on emotions. A few facts ruin a lot of arguments.
Originally Posted By: Coach
"The people here who have success are the ones who see the good in the situation."



I can tell you from a woman's perspective anyway, that when my StBX starting running his negative script of how he viewd me words & actions... it pushed me so far away.

When it was clear he was giving me the benefit of the doubt & at least attempting to see my actions & words in a 'good' light, it was like a magnet drawing me to him.

People want to be judged on their intentions, sadly we judge on actions. But just as people view words to have different interpretations, different people do the same action with very different intentions.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/06/09 02:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach

Maybe she wanted a third party perspective or a woman's perspective on how the kids are doing. Maybe she didn't want to bother you with a mundane call about the kids.


Maybe she just wanted to get away from everything and take time to think on her own. Working on my PMA.

Originally Posted By: Coach
One quote here that helped me was this, "The people here who have success are the ones who see the good in the situation."


Easy to remember quaotes are always good. And I do have a lot of good going on in my sitch smile

Originally Posted By: Coach
It does come across as needy and controlling. Don't make decisions based on emotions. A few facts ruin a lot of arguments.


Thanks Coach. I now know not to make decissions based on emotions. That is why I came here first smile
I taught you two were taking it slow?

You are too needy. and you are allowing her to get you all worked upped.
Act mysterious, dont contact, take it slow, GAL; everything you are being told to do she is doing to you. Analyze the effect it has on you.

you are questioning things you will never know about. and why?
she is at the grand canyon. you know how much walking around that is. she might be tired. ever been there? its a very 'spiritual' place. she might be having an awakening about herself. maybe about you. you will never know.

if you really curious about this OM. call his office. bet you he is still in town. say you are steve mcqueen and you are calling about the car he has in the paper, i dont care.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/06/09 05:26 PM
Thank you Steve, Bridgestone.

I know she is not there with him. She went to visit her cousin. I think I am doing better, I did not contact and feel good about it. I know I am still needy on the inside; but I really am trying to show a strong exterior. The ol fake it till I make it, or for you sophisticated folks: Long pretense makes reality. (Was that you Puppy?)
Nope -- 't'wasn't me!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/06/09 08:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Thank you, Frank Herbert:

"Long pretense creates reality."

That's working for you. smile


It was Kettricken.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/07/09 02:33 AM
Journaling:
Tuesday Evening:
I regained my composure this afternoon and was ablt to work. Its times like these that I wish I worked a physical job and did not need to concentrate. It is so hard when your mind naturally wanders into the world of obsesive thoughts. You know this talent is called "focus" when it is targeted at things we can control. However, I have now found the dark side of this God given gift. Sometimes, I wish I could just give it back.

Anyway, the girls helped distract my mind tonight. The I took a little of Greek's advice and hung an oil painting that my W replaced shortly after we got married. It is of two soccer players colliding during a match. A very masculine picture. I had it over the mantle before we married. I did not put it back above the mantle, because I do like the picture we replaced it with. However, I did find another prominent spot in the living room above the sofa for it.

W flies in sometime this evening. I do hope she enjoyed her trip. I will probably send her our normal "how the girls did" e-mail tomorrow morning. It is something that she asked that I send her. So it will be nothing out of the ordinary.
I think you SHOULD do something out of the ordinary. Wouldn't that be a "180" that MWD teaches? confused

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/07/09 03:52 AM
Your saying to not send the e-mail?
Correct. If that's what you've always done, then when she gets back from this "space" trip, I would do something dramatically different.

But that's just me. smirk

Puppy
Originally Posted By: tristan
Your saying to not send the e-mail?
Wait a minute.

I am failing to see any significant changes in you, Tristan. Your wife left, she has had some time to think, she came over for a couple of date nights, talked a little bit, agreed to marriage conselling (which I still think is a bad idea in your situation) but you are still allowing her to control your thoughts. You are still obsessing over her. Why?

She gained some freedom to make changes for herself but you appear to be remaining stagnant. This is not going to make for a successful recovery of your marital issues. She is going to continue to see you as the same needy Tristan if you continue to base your happiness on whether she comes home or not. Remember this OM has been waiting in the wings for over 2 years he is not going to disappear. Chances are he will ramp up his persausion when he notices her spending more time with you. As they say around here, you need to outshine this other man. Will talking about marriage conselling and the good ol' times be enough?

Maybe you need more time away from her to work on yourself. To realize you cannot base your happiness on being with someone else. Have you been going to the gym? Have you done something as masculine as colliding with another soccer player during a match. As Puppy suggests, "do something dramatically different." What caused your wife to lose attraction for you? Do what you need to do to get that back and maintain it. Honey, I love you and I miss you; will not be enough.

Hopefully, your goal is not just to get your wife back. Because, she can leave again at anytime. She has already proven she has no hestitation doing so. Right?
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/07/09 12:51 PM
totally agree Steve,
tristan it seems that every action & every thought process seems to be in reaction to what your wife is doing - seriously aren't you exhausted by that yet? Take a break from having to do things in reaction to whatever she is doing.

You are allowed a life at this point, enjoy it, if she always knows you're waiting around for her, she will feel secure (and lazy) to take her time when it comes to you, why are you giving her that gift? I can't see how she's earned it.

Yes she has come around, you've had a few dates, you've been physically intimate but you do notice she holds herself back every now & then. She is testing you, and you need to view most of whatever she is doing right now as a test.

Is this the same old tristan she is used to and if so, this is nice now but I'm going to get bored again real soon.

You aren't the same old tristan, you're version 2.0
- better, smarter, stronger

She just went away on a weekend trip without you and the kids,
when is the last time you went away by yourself to visit a friend or family for the weekend?

You're allowed you know ;-)

As for the posts above regarding that email,
she went away, let her come back and say hi to you,
let her be curious about you & the kids.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/07/09 01:20 PM
Thanks guys,

Consensus is no e-mail. I think I have been changing. I know it doesn't sound like on here, but this is where I come to get relief from my thoughts. I find it easy to spew here rather than keeping it bottled up inside. Thanks for listening. The fact is, I haven't contacted W since she started pulling back. I don't believe I have pursued. I will take the advice and wait for her to come back to me (if she does). I did go away alone for a weekend shortly after the seperation. I have played soccer a couple of times. I run, I prefer the outdoors to the gym. I can tell that I am slowly getting a better handle on my feelings; but they don't just go away overnight.

Have you guys ever taken the Meyers-Briggs test? I am an INTJ, which means I naturally have laser-like focus on ONE thing. In some situations, like my profession as a software developer, this is a quite a talent. I have found that in this one, however, it has caused nothing but heart-ache.

Speaking of INTJs, I went to Wikipedia and found this: "Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel ... This happens in part because many INTJs do not readily grasp the social rituals ... Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense."

No wonder I am confused. LOL

Thank you all. Regrouping and moving on.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/07/09 02:29 PM
Need advice.

We have an MC session set up for the 15th. The MC just called and said there is a cancelation for tomorrow, would we like to reschedule? Do I call W and ask? I am guessing no, but just checking.

Thanks
If it moved it up substantially sooner (several weeks), then I'd say yeah -- no problem, as it's really just "business/logistics" type of household issue. But considering the new tack we're trying to get you to take here, and since it would only move it up a week, I'd say no, personally.

Puppy
or, better yet (and just so she doesn't learn about the offer later, and say "Why didn't you tell me MC could meet us sooner?"), shoot her a text that says "FYI, MC just called and wanted to know if we could move up to tomorrow aft. Tom. doesn't work for me, as I have another appt., but I'm looking forward to our session next week. - Tristan"
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/08/09 05:02 AM
Journaling:
Wednesday:

So communication started again with e-mails:

--M-----------------------------------------------

Hola,

Hope you enjoyed the trip. Just wanted to let you know the marriage counselor called and said he had an opening tomorrow. I can’t make it then, so I told him to keep it on the 15th. The girls did well this past weekend.

-Tristan

--W---------------------------------------------

Hi there,

I am back… The trip was very nice. Arizona is so beautiful and the Grand Canyon was just that GRAND and magnificent. It was a really great experience; it is such great place for meditation. I think I had my best meditation ever… I feel so close to God, strange for me to say since I haven’t felt him/her in so long. I am glad that you and the girls did well this weekend. Thanks for taking care of them. I really needed to get away…

Regarding the counseling, the 15th works for me. Tomorrow is too soon to get the time off.

Once again, thanks!!
W

--M-------------------------------------

I am very happy for you! I need to ask you about your birthday. Are you still up to going out for a bit that evening? And what about the carseat?

Thanks,
-Tristan


--W-------------------------------

Thanks!

Re my birthday, it would be nice to go out if you are still up to doing that…

Do you have the car seat?

--M-------------------------------

I guess you didn’t check your text messages.

Yes, I forgot the car seat in the Rendezvous. It’s up to you on what you would like me to do? I can get it back home by 6:00 today.

I am up for going out on Saturday. I have a place we can go.

--W---------------------------

I don’t have text messaging in my work phone, remember??? smile

Yes, I need the car seat however; I could ask daycare friend if you are not able to get there on time. Just let me know.

Great! I am looking forward to it.

--------------------------------

So at this point I called to figure out what to do with the carseat. We decided at that point we could go out to eat. We met at my place where we greeted each other with hugs and kisses. So take the 2x4 to my head, it seems I was obsessing over nothing this past weekend.

During the dinner we were talking about W's trip. And she asks "Is Texas like Arizona?" This is relevant because we have an option to move to Texas for my work. We seriously considered it earlier this summer partly because she wanted to get away from OM.
D5: "When are we going to move to Texas?"

W's eyes tear up.

M:"You OK?"
W: <Shaking her head yes> "Its just we would be there right now if it weren't for me."
M: "Do you want to talk about it?"
W: "Later."

We go back to her place and I help put them to bed. W gave me a present from the trip; an Indian ceramic plate with a turtle etched in it. I have hung it up in my bedroom. After putting the girls to bed we sit on the sofa. I wait for her tosay something.
W: "Do you believe in God?"
M: "Yes. I sort of need too."
W: "I'm beginning to believe again too. Do you pray?"
M: "Yes."
W: "What do you pray about?"
M: "I pray for you. Me. The Girls. Us."
W: "Do you want to pray?" - she holds her hands out for mine
M: <Stumbling> "Sure. I um.."
W: "You have never prayed out loud?"
M: "Not really."
W: "I'll start."

She thanks God for everything she has; life, me, the girls, a wonderful famiily. The asks for the strength to be a good mom, a good wife, and to keep the family together. She says "I really want to keep this family together. Please, please heal my mind." Her hands clinching mine, her voice trembling, tears were rolling down both our faces. I prayed for God to give me strength to be a better man, for him to help W find happiness, and for the girls. I really hope there is someone out there listening; because we could really use the help.

We hug. Then
M: "Are you OK, you seem different since the end of last week."
W: "You noticed?"
M: "Just a bit."
W: "I am really depressed." <pauses with scared look> "I am having thoughts of killing myself. Don't worry, I won't do it. I wouldn't do that to the girls."
M: "You know you can always call me. It doesn't need to be me. Call anyone."
W: "I know. Don't worry. I won't do it."
M: "Have you talked to IC?"
W: "No, not in a while. I think I need a new one. I am in no better place now than when I started with her."
M: "What about psych?"
W: "No, but I will make an appointment."
M: "Is this the deepest one in a while?"
W: "Yes. It's been a long time."
...
W: "I was walking in the airport and saw a guy that looked like you. He was with a lady with long dark curly hair" (W has long dark curly hair) "and he was caressing her back the same way you caress mine. I had to run to the bathroom for a while because I couldn't stop crying. I thought 'I would die if I ever saw you like that with another woman.' Anyway, I went through all of this to say I love you."

I am worried. She has had thoughts of killing herself on and off throughout our marriage, but I have always been in the same house. It is completely different when I know she is alone.

The night ended nicely. We talked about some lighter things. Kissed each other good night.

M: "Have a good night."
W: "You too. Try to stay warm."
M: <pause and look back with smile> "You know it would be easier if there were someone in my bed."
W: <smiles and shoos me away and closes the door>
W: <opens the door> "pssst."
M: "Hmm"
W: "Maybe on Saturday."
Posted By: Lotus Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/08/09 05:12 AM
Tristan, You are right to be concerned. It sounds like your concern came through, in a supportive way. I really think one weekend at Retrouvaille would do the two of you enormous good. She sounds so ready for that type of experience to wash the past away and set out on a new and better course together.
What a night.

I can see how your mind had been going while she was out of contact with you. It looks like you guys are still on track though.

Your W sounds like she is in a pretty dark place. She's lucky to have a H like you that is willing to help her through this instead of focusing completely on himself and telling her to hit the bricks. It's a hard mindset to maintain.

I'm happy for you that your evening went as it did. I mean, I am sorry your W is in such a dark place, but happy for you that she is still interested in working on things.

You must feel so relieved.
Tristan, just a quick note...one thing I've gone through, that I'm still going through, is realizing that I can't always trust myself and my own judgment. I'm a fairly smart person, I am usually quite good at reading other people, and I'm normally fairly skeptical...and I almost ruined my life by making some enormous errors in judgment. It's frightening. Not only do I feel that I can't trust anyone else, I can't even trust me.

Something I'm working on with therapy.

Anyway...your wife has the added burden of knowing she has moods that she can't always control. How difficult. It's scary to look at the future when you feel less sure of yourself like that. I am so glad she is beginning to seek solace and comfort with God. That has been my stronghold and my rock. God doesn't change...God can be trusted. And God always wants what is truly best for us.

You are doing an amazing job with all this...don't forget to keep seeking support for yourself. I know this isn't easy for you.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/08/09 12:47 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Tristan, just a quick note...one thing I've gone through, that I'm still going through, is realizing that I can't always trust myself and my own judgment. I'm a fairly smart person, I am usually quite good at reading other people, and I'm normally fairly skeptical...and I almost ruined my life by making some enormous errors in judgment. It's frightening. Not only do I feel that I can't trust anyone else, I can't even trust me.

Something I'm working on with therapy.

Anyway...your wife has the added burden of knowing she has moods that she can't always control. How difficult. It's scary to look at the future when you feel less sure of yourself like that. I am so glad she is beginning to seek solace and comfort with God. That has been my stronghold and my rock. God doesn't change...God can be trusted. And God always wants what is truly best for us.

You are doing an amazing job with all this...don't forget to keep seeking support for yourself. I know this isn't easy for you.


- breakaway please stop posting what I was going to write ;-)

Yeah I agree totally with all of this,
Tristan you are doing a great job, keep it up.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/08/09 01:42 PM
Thank you all for your support. She is struggling; but is really trying. I think of how hard things are for me with a mind that is chemically well regulated; I can't imagine what it is like for her.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/08/09 01:59 PM
Tristan, Your wife praying with you is a good sign. It's intimate to pray together. I would turn it up and lead the prayer next time.

Cheers
Tristan,

All very good stuff (well, obviously other than her thoughts of hurting herself), and all very good signs.

Yeah, me, Puppy the Pessimist -- all good. grin

Praying for the two of you,

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/09/09 04:12 AM
Journaling:
Thursday:

No communication with W through most of the day. Had one exchange of e-mails in the afternoon.

--W------------------------
Hi,

Not much to update but wanted to share a funny story…

D3 woke up asking for her “caterpillar” … she was so upset and made me get up to help her find it. I knew she had to be dreaming but wanted to support her, we looked in her bed and no signs… I asked her to go to sleep but she wanted to sleep with me because she was upset about missing her caterpillar. She started crying saying that her fairy must have taken it…. After a little while she calmed down and said, mommy, I think that the Dublin fairy will bring me one…. It was so sweet… it touched my heart. She then asked to play with my hair to make her feel better… after this of course it took me a while to go to sleep and then over-slept…

We are so lucky, we have the most beautiful pumpkins in the entire world smile (mom talking… smile )…

I hope you day is going well.
W

PS
Thanks for last night. You always have a way of making me feel better when I am depressed.

--M----------------------------

Hola,

I have been thinking of you and hoping you were feeling better. It sounds like you are in a better place. That is good.

The “Dublin” fairy? Do you know what that means? It must have been one heck of a dream. Did she fully wake up or was she doing this in a daze? Thank you for the story, I am smiling while imagining you helping her look under the bed for the caterpillar.

By the way, it isn’t just mom talking… dad agrees smile

I have been doing well, getting some work done. I hope things are going well for you as well. And no need to thank me for last night. I so enjoy the time I spend with you; always have. Your prayer was especially touching. You are such a strong woman. I hope we can do more praying together in the future.

Love,
-Tristan

PS. Have you helped anyone today? (other than D3 and her caterpillar smile )

-------------------------------

Never received a reply to the e-mail. But it was sent late enough in the day that she may not have received it.

I stopped by a friends place on the way home from work and then went for a short run/walk. I don't know what it is, but I just can't get into a good run like I used to. Its not that I get tired, I just don't have the mental focus to do it. I slow down to a walk and think about W, girls, God, prayer, life, family, you guys, etc. Working the muscles to the brink just doesn't seem as important anymore. Perhaps it will again someday. W always said she wanted to run a marathon with me. Hope I get the chance.
Originally Posted By: tristan

Have you guys ever taken the Meyers-Briggs test? I am an INTJ, which means I naturally have laser-like focus on ONE thing. In some situations, like my profession as a software developer, this is a quite a talent. I have found that in this one, however, it has caused nothing but heart-ache.


Hey I did that today. I'm an ENFP...Idealist Champion...results very interesting!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/12/09 01:20 PM
Journaling:
This weekend was good. The best I have had in a while. On Friday, W sent an e-mail asking if I wanted to stop by for some soup. I wrote bck saying I could stop by for a short bit. When I got there , there was much more than just soup. We had a good meal and then I helped put the girls to bed. We went down to finish our glasses of wine. After conversing for a while, the question came out "Do you really have to go?" I really had no place to be, so I told her "No". She asked if I would stay the night. I was happy too.

While in bed:
W: "I talked to my mom today."
M: "Oh yeah."
W: "She was talking to dad and told me what we should do. Do you want to hear it?"
M: "Sure."
W: "She thinks you should move in here with me and sell the house. It is easier to sell, if we aren't living in it. You know, we don't have to clean it or anything. Then we can live here while we find a place in Texas. So we can take our time and do the move right."
M: "I have actually thought about that too. If we ever got to that point."
W: "Really?"
...

Saturday, my W's birthday, girls woke us up around 8:00. I asked W if it would be OK for me to take the girls for a little bit in the afternoon so we could put together little party for her that evening before the concert. She was fine with that and then asked if I would like to join them for breakfast that morning. I did, but told her that I wanted to join a soccer match at 11:00 and needed to do some cleaning at home. She asked if she could stay at my place while I played. While at soccer, she really cleaned up the place (not that it all that bad) and decorated it for fall. The house did look great when I got back and I thanked her for it. She then spent the entire day at teh house and just stayed upstairs getting ready as girls and I prepared the party for her. The party was small, but it was nice to have the 4 of us together for her birthday. By the way 25, she absolutely loved the turtle earrings (she wore them to the concert that night).

After the orchestra, we stopped off at a jazz bar on the way home. We had a couple of cocktails and just talked for a couple of hours.

W: "So would you move in with me?"
M: "Is that a proposition?"
W: "Yes."
M: "I think I would want to stay in our house through the holidays. But I want to be together."
...

W stays with me that night.

Sunday:
W suggests we all go to church (the one I had been going to for a several weeks now). Again, this is something that has not happened for a long time and it felt great to be together again as a family at church. This almost seemed to be fate. Remember, my W asked earlier in the week "Do you believe in God?" to which my response was "Yes. I sort of need too." Well, the sermon was based on a peanuts comic strip where Linus is writing to the Great Pumpkin. In it he writes the PS "PS. I f you really are fake, please don't tell me. I don't want to know." The pastor said that he needs to believe in God to give his life meaning. After this past week, it really hit home.

The rest of Sunday was pretty much just the 4 of us relaxing around the house. We are beginning to feel like a family again. W stayed over again that night. I think last night was the first time that one of us stayed over at the others place without having sex.

M: "Were you serious last night?"
W: "About what? Selling the house and moving to Texas?"
M: "Yes."
W: "Yes I am. I need to get away from here. There is nothing here for me any more."

Monday:
This morning as I was walking out the door, I noticed my W was reading the book "Fall in Love, Stay in Love".

M: "Are you going to sop by tonight?"
W: "Yes."
M: "Are you going to stay?"
W: "Yes. I need to pick up some clothes on the way home."

I am feeling like we are a family again.
smile
I'm happy for you and your family. smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/13/09 01:21 PM
Journaling:
It seems that W may be moving back in. All signs point that way. She stayed last night and plans to stay again tonight. She says long term goal is to make this permanent.

However, last night we had this conversation in bed:
W: "Want to hear a secret?"
M: "Sure"
W: "I've stopped taking my meds!"
<Yes, that is mild panic running through my veins>
W: "It's been about a week."
M: "My opinion. It's a bad idea."
W: "It's just a test. I want to be skinny again. I think I am strong enough to handle it."
M: "I agree that you are strong enough, but I think you should do it under the watch of Dr. D."
W: "OK. I will call him tomorrow."
...

So she is going off her meds. I feel like I have been cranked up to the top of another rollercoaster and just about to go for another ride. Better hold on tight.

I will admit that I would have never noticed had she not told me. She seems very stable right now. Hopefully, she will call the psych today, I do believe that she can go without the meds (she went 30 years without them). However, I believe she needs to titrate down from her current dosage and be under the close watch of a psych.

Hold on, this could get bumpy frown
uggghhhhh....

well, props to you for not letting the panic show. Prayers going up.

otherwise, things sound good. smile
Just reading up on your story. Glad to hear things are looking up for you.
I am by no means a doctor. But from what I've read, going cold-turkey off psychoactive meds is one of the stupidest things in the world you can do. Hopefully, her psych will set her straight. There's not much you can do, I guess, but keep your eyes wide open.

Sorry, man ....
Oh boy....since my wife has been to the Dr the advice that I hear over and over is DO NOT let them go off their meds. I would make sure she talks to the Dr. about this.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/14/09 02:14 AM
Journaling:
The good news is my W made an appointment with the psych today. The not so good news is that it isn't till Nov 2. She hasn't taken her meds since before she left for Arizona. Truthfully, I wouldn't have noticed had she not told me. She currently seems to be in a very good state of mind. She says that she is in a better place now.

She just ran over to her place to get some clothes for tomorrow, but wants to "talk" when she gets back. I am not too sure what she wants to talk about, but it seemed to be R related.
BE PREPARED.
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/14/09 02:39 AM
I second the Be Prepared!

My understanding that is bi-polars tend to go off their meds when a manic phase hits. Is that a possibility atm?
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/14/09 06:16 AM
wow. has she ever signed the HIPAA form so you can talk to her dr? now might not be the time to push it. . . try to encourage her to merely go on a lower dose, maybe. is she just on a mood stabilizer, or something else?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/14/09 12:50 PM
I don't think W is manic right now. I don't believe she is depressed. She really does seem to be in a good place. The girls were enough to drive Mother Theresa crazy this morning, but W handled it well. She has put on 20 lbs since going on the meds. She still looks great and I tell her so, but she says she feels disgusted with herself.

As for being prepared. I thought about it and realized that I am confused as to what I should be doing now. I do not know what to be prepared for. Last night, she came back with a weeks worth of clothes and the "talk" never came up. I am confused with the way I feel. I don't feel secure in this marriage even though my W is saying and doing all the right things. I can't relax. I'm on edge. I keep waiting for the next shoe to drop.

I see the IC today, hopefully he can help me figure out where I need to go from here. We have our first MC session since the seperation tomorrow, I am hoping that will shine some light for me as well.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/14/09 12:57 PM
Originally Posted By: ryepatch
wow. has she ever signed the HIPAA form so you can talk to her dr? now might not be the time to push it. . . try to encourage her to merely go on a lower dose, maybe. is she just on a mood stabilizer, or something else?


She was on Celexa (Anti-Depressant) and Abilify (Mood Stabilizer). I suggested that she do it that way, but she doesn't seem too interested. The only reason she was diagnosed bi-polar was because she started rapid-cycling after being put on the AD. I am concerned about her going off her meds, but beyond informing the psych (which I may do), I am not sure there is anything productive I can do about it.
I know EXACTLY how you feel. It's scary isn't it? Things are going the way you would hope they are (for the most part) but you have this instinct telling you to stay alert and that things could change in an instant. I think positive results over a long period of time is the only cure for this.
I guess you can't really be detached anymore since you are reconsiling.

It must be pretty unnerving. I wouldn't stop GALing though. It may give you something else to focus on as well as make you more interesting to your W.
I agree. The GAL was probably a part of what got you guys to talking again so don't give it up...for the R sake and yours.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/15/09 02:58 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: ryepatch
wow. has she ever signed the HIPAA form so you can talk to her dr? now might not be the time to push it. . . try to encourage her to merely go on a lower dose, maybe. is she just on a mood stabilizer, or something else?


She was on Celexa (Anti-Depressant) and Abilify (Mood Stabilizer). I suggested that she do it that way, but she doesn't seem too interested. The only reason she was diagnosed bi-polar was because she started rapid-cycling after being put on the AD. I am concerned about her going off her meds, but beyond informing the psych (which I may do), I am not sure there is anything productive I can do about it.


My wife was on celexa (for depression) & well-butrin (I think that sounds right, for bp), she went off them a couple years ago to get "skinny" and thats when all the problems started - getting skinny, working out, tanning, buying new clothes, new hairstyle, new friends, staying out late, clubbing, etc.

Going off the meds without supervision is not smart, watch out for the withdrawal symptoms, it's not if they will happen, it's when they will happen and then she will start having ideas to make really radical changes, let's drop this and do this right now, no need to wait let's do it and then it will be, why did we do this, I can't believe we did this.

Tristan be careful.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/15/09 03:29 PM
Originally Posted By: robx


My wife was on celexa (for depression) & well-butrin (I think that sounds right, for bp), she went off them a couple years ago to get "skinny" and thats when all the problems started - getting skinny, working out, tanning, buying new clothes, new hairstyle, new friends, staying out late, clubbing, etc.

Going off the meds without supervision is not smart, watch out for the withdrawal symptoms, it's not if they will happen, it's when they will happen and then she will start having ideas to make really radical changes, let's drop this and do this right now, no need to wait let's do it and then it will be, why did we do this, I can't believe we did this.

Tristan be careful.


She is seeing the psych. So she won't do it without his supervision, which is good. Her point is that she went 33 years without needing meds and the original prescription of ADs is what caused the "manic" behavior in the first place. If she can handle the depressed side of her bp without meds; then she might not need to worry about the manic side as it was never a problem before she was on meds.

I know it is not a smart thing, but she does make a convincing argument on why it is worth a try. I just want her to be seeing a psych while doing it. And yes, I will be watching her mood and behavior more closely and from a different perspective from now on. She has also asked me to do the same in not so many words.

Robx- did your W ever go back on her meds?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/15/09 03:50 PM
Journaling:
We had our first MC session today. It was a lot of the counselor gathering history. My W did say she was 90% sure she wants us to work. She said she realized that she has done a lot of damage to our relationship and wants to regain my trust.

When asked what caused my reprioritizing of my life. I said I had taken my family for granted. When I was faced with the real chance that I could lose it, I realized what was really important.

We both left in a good mood, so I would call it a successful session. We have a long ways to go. My "homework" is to determine what W could do to show me that she is committed to our relationship. For those of you that have gone through this, what did your S do that really helped in rebuilding trust in the relationship?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/15/09 03:59 PM
EB & WTTB,

Yes. I think W and I both need to continue to GAL. I now realize that we were very enmeshed before all of this happened. We need to be able to be individuals and accept each other as such. GALing is part of this.

Thank you.
Tris, *please* don't take this the wrong way; I'm *thrilled* that your session went so well and hope for only the best for both of you. Don't mean to harsh your buzz.

But. If I am correct in understanding that she has *already* stopped her meds cold turkey, instead of stepping them down gradually as per medical instruction, being 'under the supervision' of a psych is about as much good as having an EMT *stand there* while she dances around in a thunderstorm in a chainmail bikini, holding a lightning rod.

I'm not trying to freak you out. But, IMHO, DO NOT minimalize this, even to yourself.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/15/09 08:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Tris, *please* don't take this the wrong way; I'm *thrilled* that your session went so well and hope for only the best for both of you. Don't mean to harsh your buzz.

But. If I am correct in understanding that she has *already* stopped her meds cold turkey, instead of stepping them down gradually as per medical instruction, being 'under the supervision' of a psych is about as much good as having an EMT *stand there* while she dances around in a thunderstorm in a chainmail bikini, holding a lightning rod.

I'm not trying to freak you out. But, IMHO, DO NOT minimalize this, even to yourself.


Beyond saying I think it is a bad idea, what should I do? I thought about calling the psych and letting him know, but he can't do anything before he sees her either. I will probably ask her if she minds if I go with her to see the psych.

By the way, I talked about this with my IC yesterday and he didn't have a whole lot of good ideas either. If anyone has any suggestions on what I can do about it, please let me know.

Thanks.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/15/09 08:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Tris, *please* don't take this the wrong way; .


Kett. I do not take any advice people offer here the *wrong* way. I appreciate it all. I especially appreciate the experienced advice that you bring.

But I am not sure how to handle this one. I do not want to banter her with it day in and day out. As of now, I can't even point to any negative behaviors, moods, etc. Mentally, she seems to be in as good of a place as she has been in quite some time. I know 2 weeks is long enough to see the full effect of going cold-turkey; but I would have thought I would have noticed something by now. She was very depressed coming back from Arizona, but she has bounced back from that rather quickly.
There's not a lot you can do about it, beyond letting her psych know, which I don't think is out of line under the circs.

I guess I was responding to a certain tone of justification/rationalization on your part ... "she did fine up 'till now .... it doesn't really sound like that bad of an idea ...." (I paraphrase). This IS a bad idea. Going off cold turkey is a TERRIBLE idea, regardless of her status before.

All you can do, really, is be watchful. Not paranoid, but *objectively* watchful. Educate yourself about the possible ramifications of her choice, don't rely on what we say. In order to pull that off, you can't allow *yourself* to slip into enabler mode. IMHO.
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/15/09 08:51 PM
tristan,

there's a form you can get her to sign which would allow you to discuss her with her psychiatrist. it's called a HIPAA release form. if she won't sign it, you can still give him information, but he can't talk to you. if he won't get on the phone with you, you can send him a certified letter with your concerns. he needs to be informed she's gone off her meds.

what meds is she on? ADs don't usually cause weight gain. it's the mood stabilizers prescribed for BP that do (lithium, depakote/valproate, etc.). anti psychotics do this too, but she's probably not taking one of those.

you have some leverage here. you could make it a condition of reconciliation that she sign the HIPAA form and allow you to participate in her mental health decisions.

good luck.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/15/09 08:58 PM
She has not signed the HIPAA agreement, but I have talked to the psych without her knowledge in the past. I did not feel good about that last time and now I really want to make sure their is trust between us, so I would like to be very forthright with what I do.

She is on Celexa and Abilify; both cite weight gain as potential side-effects.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/16/09 04:35 PM
Journaling:

I normally don't remember my dreams, but I remembered one I had last night:

I am in my childhood home as a grown man. I open my parent's bedroom closet door. Standing their is OM, but he does not see me. I close the door and calmly walk down to the basement where I grab an antique rifle out of the my father's gun cabinet. I continue to walk around the empty house with the rifle. After some time, I go back to the closet and open the door; this time pointing the rifle. OM is still there, this time he sees me. I point the rifle at him. He walks toward me, growing larger with each step. He is a couple of feet taller than I by the time he reaches the tip of the barrel. I drop the gun and we stand there staring into each others eyes. I point to the door and he leaves.

Just as OM exits the door W pulls up in an old rusty hatchback that I don't recognize. She runs in the house and back out with the girls. Throws them into the back of the car and takes off. driving crazily down the road with girls unbuckled in the back. I chase them to the edge of the lawn, but stop at the street. I just stand in the lawn watching them go.
Fascinating! Obviously, you lusted inappropriately for your father as a child, and the guns are phallic symbols.

I keed! I'm a keeder! I have no clue what it means. grin

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/16/09 05:25 PM
Journaling:

So my W brought up OM for first time (other than MC session) since she told me he was out of her life. I guess he sent her a long e-mail today with the subject line "I hate you". She said she deleted her e-mail and also the 3 voicemails he has left her today before listening to them. She has told her agency that she does not want to see him and gave the department that would have contact with him to one of her staff.

She says that he is stalking her and she wants nothing to do with him. I am sorry that she has to put up with this, but also happy she feels comfortable in opening up and sharing it with me. I really feel like confronting this guy; but still probably not a good idea.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/16/09 05:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Fascinating! Obviously, you lusted inappropriately for your father as a child, and the guns are phallic symbols.


How did you know!?!?

Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

I keed! I'm a keeder! I have no clue what it means. grin


Oh, ah, never mind.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:

So my W brought up OM for first time (other than MC session) since she told me he was out of her life. I guess he sent her a long e-mail today with the subject line "I hate you". She said she deleted her e-mail and also the 3 voicemails he has left her today before listening to them. She has told her agency that she does not want to see him and gave the department that would have contact with him to one of her staff.

She says that he is stalking her and she wants nothing to do with him. I am sorry that she has to put up with this, but also happy she feels comfortable in opening up and sharing it with me. I really feel like confronting this guy; but still probably not a good idea.


interesting, an obsessive pyscho to boot. tristan you got handed a crappy hand of cards. im impressed how you dealt with them.

at this time, yeah, i would confront the guy and say, "Stay the F away from MY wife."
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/16/09 05:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen


interesting, an obsessive pyscho to boot. tristan you got handed a crappy hand of cards. im impressed how you dealt with them.


Yeah, its hard to figure how this guy became the COO of an agency.

Thank you Steve.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen


interesting, an obsessive pyscho to boot. tristan you got handed a crappy hand of cards. im impressed how you dealt with them.


Yeah, its hard to figure how this guy became the COO of an agency.

Thank you Steve.


I blame a mistake in the printing of business cards. Cuckoo becomes Coo with a the wrong key stroke pretty easily.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/16/09 07:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Fascinating! Obviously, you lusted inappropriately for your father as a child, and the guns are phallic symbols.

I keed! I'm a keeder! I have no clue what it means. grin

Puppy


LOL! puppy you bastard, that was funny but inappropriate LOL!

Tristan, I'm not an expert on dreams but the OM being in there, your wife taking the kids away from you, all fears, all things you have no trust in anymore, it's just symbolic of your fears, we all have dreams, alot of them strange and leaving us wondering what's behind the scenes.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/16/09 07:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:

So my W brought up OM for first time (other than MC session) since she told me he was out of her life. I guess he sent her a long e-mail today with the subject line "I hate you". She said she deleted her e-mail and also the 3 voicemails he has left her today before listening to them. She has told her agency that she does not want to see him and gave the department that would have contact with him to one of her staff.

She says that he is stalking her and she wants nothing to do with him. I am sorry that she has to put up with this, but also happy she feels comfortable in opening up and sharing it with me. I really feel like confronting this guy; but still probably not a good idea.


interesting, an obsessive pyscho to boot. tristan you got handed a crappy hand of cards. im impressed how you dealt with them.

at this time, yeah, i would confront the guy and say, "Stay the F away from MY wife."


- just curious, did she show you the email?
Originally Posted By: robx


- just curious, did she show you the email?


Wondering the exact same thing, Rob.
... me three ....
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/16/09 08:42 PM
well aren't we all a bunch of curious george's,
maybe tristan is the man with the yellow hat ;-)
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/16/09 09:23 PM
Sorry to dissappoint. She called me from the car. She said she deleted it without reading. Said she hasn't been reading or listening to any of his attempts to contact her.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/16/09 09:32 PM
well I like hearing that tristan,
she is being proactive about getting rid of the OM, that is definitely a good sign!
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/16/09 09:36 PM
Doesn't she work with/for the OM? IMHO, she needs to start documenting and keeping a file. The tenor of the continued contact is crossing the line into harassment, and perhaps OM's HR department needs to know that.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:

So my W brought up OM for first time (other than MC session) since she told me he was out of her life. I guess he sent her a long e-mail today with the subject line "I hate you". She said she deleted her e-mail and also the 3 voicemails he has left her today before listening to them. She has told her agency that she does not want to see him and gave the department that would have contact with him to one of her staff.

She says that he is stalking her and she wants nothing to do with him. I am sorry that she has to put up with this, but also happy she feels comfortable in opening up and sharing it with me. I really feel like confronting this guy; but still probably not a good idea.


This does not surprise me. I knew he was that kind, I just knew it, can't say why.

This is the voice of bitter experience.

Do not confront. Confronting is attention and that's what he wants. Do not feed it.

She is already doing exactly the right thing with No Contact, meaning not even reading his texts, etc. This is appropriate and healthy for her. However, I think documentation is a good thing. Do you have someone else (I don't recommend it be you) that she can fwd voicemails to or that can listen to them for her? I would say her lawyer. Can she discuss this with her lawyer and have this info sent to him?

The Gift of Fear is a good book that deals with stalker stuff.

Would you like some more resources for helping your wife handle this? Would she open to anything like that coming from you? Articles even?
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/16/09 10:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Dia
Doesn't she work with/for the OM? IMHO, she needs to start documenting and keeping a file. The tenor of the continued contact is crossing the line into harassment, and perhaps OM's HR department needs to know that.


bad move, they were involved inappropriately at work, she's partly responsible for this scenario, no matter what he gets, she'll get some heat on this too.
He was in a superior position. That makes it a sexual harassment case no matter what she did. I know two people who walked away with a shitload of money from their Fortune 100 companies under the exact same scenario.

Still it varies by state. I wouldn't do anything without talking to lawyers. But ALWAYS document. Whether you end up needing it or not.
Originally Posted By: breakaway

She is already doing exactly the right thing with No Contact, meaning not even reading his texts, etc. This is appropriate and healthy for her. However, I think documentation is a good thing. Do you have someone else (I don't recommend it be you) that she can fwd voicemails to or that can listen to them for her? I would say her lawyer. Can she discuss this with her lawyer and have this info sent to him?


This is a GREAT idea!

Puppy
Originally Posted By: breakaway
He was in a superior position. That makes it a sexual harassment case no matter what she did. I know two people who walked away with a shitload of money from their Fortune 100 companies under the exact same scenario.

No. if she accepted his advancements, responded to them positively, or went out in a social situations that did not involve other co-workers a sexual harassment case would be null.

Sexual harassment is unwelcomed, inappropriate and continued. If she sent him a cease and desist letter, made her employers aware and he continued that would be one thing; if she flirted with him for two years and went out on dates with him behind her husbands back that is completely different.
Wrong.
I tried to edit that and it wouldn't let me...


I said I knew of two cases, both were consensual affairs, one of these people got a very high promotion that she didn't deserve as well. Relationship went south, guy got ugly about it, woman sued, woman got money. Gloria Allred, one of the foremost sexual harassment attorneys in this country was talking about it on television, if the man is in a superior position he will still be held at fault because it's not an equal power situation. You may be right about the points you made, as far as looking some definition up, but I am telling you that in those two specific cases, and these were high profile companies, the guy and the company were blamed.


I also worked WITH someone that was making out like a bandit and getting company cars, promotions, and all kinds of sh!t because of what she had going with our boss, but when she didn't want to play anymore she sued and got money. These cases didn't go to trial. Thank God because I was going to be deposed in the last example and didn't want to have anything to do with it.

I don't think tristan's wife should sue or anything! I'm just saying the fact that she was in a subordinate position DOES matter, especially because he is now harassing her for not wanting to continue the relationship. He's in deep sh!t if he keeps it up.

Documentation is important because people like her OM will smear the other person and lie their asses off. Plus it's just a matter of safety. You have to build a record of it in case it gets worse.

If she ignores him completely he will likely give up if he can't squeeze any attention out of it. But she needs to err on the side of caution.
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Wrong.


I love your posts!

edited: laws do vary from state to state. i should realize that.

Quote:
These cases didn't go to trial.


LOL. rare they ever do.

but, as Tristan steps to the forefront as confident, respected and loved husband, the loser will get the picture and disappear.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/18/09 11:38 PM
Although I would love to get this guy in legal trouble, I do not believe W wants to get him any trouble. In our short conversation about it, she said she hates hurting people. It sounded like she deleted the e-mails and voicemails because she didn't want to know how much she is hurting him and she knew any communication harms our R.

She currently looks at the "stalking" (as her friend called it, she actually didn't call it stalking herself) as more of an annoyance than invasion of privacy. I like the idea of saving the e-mails for possible future legal action. But I am concerned more about our marriage and since she is currently doing the right thing for that, I think I will let this go for now.

By the way, he is no longer her manager. She changed jobs about a year ago.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/19/09 11:15 AM
Journaling:

We had a very nice weekend. It was D5's (now to be known as D6) birthday, so we took her to a nearby waterpark. My parents and siblings met us for a little party afterward. It was the first time W saw them since the separation. She was very insecure about meeting them, as I am from a relatively conservative family and she is afraid of what they may think of her. Anyway, it meant a lot to me that she was overcame her fears and went anyway. She said she felt "awkward" but that she did have a good time.

She asked last night if we could come up with a plan on how to move her stuff back into our home. She has already started thinking of how we can fit all the new furniture in. These are all good signs that show a commitment to our marriage. I find it all reassuring.

This site has been wondreful. However, I do not know if "Divorce Busting" is the correct name. Divorces are rarely busted in a defining moment. Rather, they fizzle slowly away until there is nothing left. I can't point to a moment where this marriage turned. However, I do feel good about our direction now.
Originally Posted By: tristan
But I am concerned more about our marriage and since she is currently doing the right thing for that, I think I will let this go for now.


good for you.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/19/09 02:01 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
He was in a superior position. That makes it a sexual harassment case no matter what she did. I know two people who walked away with a shitload of money from their Fortune 100 companies under the exact same scenario.

Still it varies by state. I wouldn't do anything without talking to lawyers. But ALWAYS document. Whether you end up needing it or not.


Breakaway the law is never black & white and it's never absolute, do you read what you even write ".... no matter what she did". Is that so?

So not everyone is held accountable for their actions that contributed to a specific situation?

She would be held accountable, you are mistaken if you think she would walk away scott free and on top of that, none of this would be private, news of this always leaks out, the scandal that is created by something like this causes poor work relations, I'm sure her employer would always have a different view of her along with her co-workers and she would have that stress to deal with too along with the fact that during this entire thread, her mental state has been at the forefront as one of the main issues.

".... no matter what she did"

Everyone has responsibility for their own actions,
attempting to profit from these actions with the person you were involved in an affair with is just an extension of your questionable character should you choose to do something like this.

The assumption is he is stalking her, when in reality, the OM is the man she was involved with for an undetermined period of time and he has feelings to (arguably) and maybe he still wants her. Would we call the LBS a stalker because they continue to pursue their WAS with calls, texts, emails, etc.

What of Tristan? Would he want his world publicly revealed, everyone to know that his wife had an affair with someone she used to work with, enough damage has been caused already, I don't think it would be a good move to pursue something like this legally, would a couple hundred thousand dollars cover the cost of their pain? Would this help them on the path of reconciliation, continuing to focus on what happened during that affair and all the problems it created?

Nothing is ever cut & dried & absolute as the picture you tried to paint Breakaway, I think you know that from your own situation, no matter how small a role we played in an affair regardless if it was an EA or PA, we still played a role, we are responsible for that role.

Most of what you post Breakaway is usually good stuff, but every now & then I can't help but feel some angry part of you that crosses a few virtual lines - I think I get it (I could be wrong), you're still angry with the man you spent some time talking to (the quasi-emotional affair), but sometimes you project a little bit of that on to other situations and I'm not sure it's applicable in this case.

We can't blame the other person for getting emotionally involved with our spouses when they have an affair, we really can't. Our spouses put themselves in situations where an emotional connection was possible when they themselves were feeling weak but the responsibility is still there's alone.

Tristan, I would say just have your wife continue cutting off communications with the OM, no more phone calls, texts or emails and he will get the drift eventually - she's doing a good job of it thus far and it will eventually end.
rob, as usual, this has nothing to do with tristan, and, as usual, you are projecting your issues and assumptions on to me. When I said "no matter what she did" that was not implying that I felt any of the "she"s were not accountable. I was talking about the outcome. As usual, you are wrong about me. In every example I gave, I thought those women got away with murder. The last case I was to be deposed on, I was dreading, because I quit that company to get away from that situation, and the woman was going to depose me, when frankly, I would have testified against her. She was a total manipulator. But she walked away with fifty grand. I never did get deposed. I thought the other two cases were ridiculous as well, but the woman won. I didn't say she should win, I said she did win. So who is morally accountable is not the point.

As for the rest of your lecture about me, I didn't bother reading the rest of it. I don't care what you think about me. For some reason, you seem to have some need to "correct" me personally, as if you want some kind of groveling by proxy to make up for whatever your wife did. If you disagree with my opinions, fine, but stop writing posts about me and my "issues."

I will politely tell you one time that if you continue making personal comments about me I will consider it harassment.
Originally Posted By: robx


We can't blame the other person for getting emotionally involved with our spouses when they have an affair, we really can't.


Yes, we can.

We can -- and should -- blame them BOTH. "It takes two to tango."

Puppy
Robx and Breakaway, It has been decided by management that we are going to relocate your desks to opposite sides of the building. We request that you avoid any contact with eachother in public areas and if it is neccessary that you need to communicate with each other for business purposes please direct those communications to your immediate supervisor until futher notice.

In retrospect, maybe we should have discussed,

If Mary Smith came to you with the complaint that John Doe's personal hygiene was affecting her ability to do her job what would you do?
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/19/09 04:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Robx and Breakaway, It has been decided by management that we are going to relocate your desks to opposite sides of the building. We request that you avoid any contact with eachother in public areas and if it is neccessary that you need to communicate with each other for business purposes please direct those communications to your immediate supervisor until futher notice.

In retrospect, maybe we should have discussed,

If Mary Smith came to you with the complaint that John Doe's personal hygiene was affecting her ability to do her job what would you do?


LOL!
What happens if I point my finger at her and say "SHE STARTED IT!" LOL!

Too funny!
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/19/09 04:48 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
rob, as usual, this has nothing to do with tristan, and, as usual, you are projecting your issues and assumptions on to me. When I said "no matter what she did" that was not implying that I felt any of the "she"s were not accountable. I was talking about the outcome. As usual, you are wrong about me. In every example I gave, I thought those women got away with murder. The last case I was to be deposed on, I was dreading, because I quit that company to get away from that situation, and the woman was going to depose me, when frankly, I would have testified against her. She was a total manipulator. But she walked away with fifty grand. I never did get deposed. I thought the other two cases were ridiculous as well, but the woman won. I didn't say she should win, I said she did win. So who is morally accountable is not the point.

As for the rest of your lecture about me, I didn't bother reading the rest of it. I don't care what you think about me. For some reason, you seem to have some need to "correct" me personally, as if you want some kind of groveling by proxy to make up for whatever your wife did. If you disagree with my opinions, fine, but stop writing posts about me and my "issues."

I will politely tell you one time that if you continue making personal comments about me I will consider it harassment.



ZZZZZZZZZZZZ....... what the... sorry breakaway were you saying something? I wasn't paying attention ;-)

You sure get touchy when I quote you.
Is it ok only when you get to make statements that are questionable or are we afforded that particular right?

".... no matter what she did..."

Yes I get it, you were talking about the outcome which you concluded prematurely would happen a certain way, and I disagreed with you because like I said, it's never that easy. You made an "assumption" based on your limited exposure to a few certain cases which we all don't know the details about. I just called you on your assumption.

And trust me, I have no "need" to correct you, I just like to bust people on their crap, I'm sure it's happened to me a few times, but don't view it as a necessity - I don't attribute that much importance to it. ;-)
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/19/09 04:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: robx


We can't blame the other person for getting emotionally involved with our spouses when they have an affair, we really can't.


Yes, we can.

We can -- and should -- blame them BOTH. "It takes two to tango."

Puppy


Fine we can blame both but the OM didn't know every detail, I'm sure she didn't explain everything to him. That would rarely happen when someone is in this situation.

Yes it takes two to tango, the only person I would be concerned with is the spouse in this situation.

And remember those feelings of lust/infatuation, those are chemicals generated in response to certain stimuli in a specific environment - we all went through very similar feelings when we began seeing our respective spouses, attraction is not a choice, love might be, but attraction isn't.
Originally Posted By: robx


And remember those feelings of lust/infatuation, those are chemicals generated in response to certain stimuli in a specific environment - we all went through very similar feelings when we began seeing our respective spouses, attraction is not a choice, love might be, but attraction isn't.


No, but acting on that attraction, most certainly is.

Puppy
Tristan,

Am so glad your sitch continues to improve. This is great news and I'm glad you are both taking the care and time to do this as well as you can.

RE: the OM sitch at work...having been exposed (professionally speaking), to clients with this problems let me say that although states vary, there are also federal laws on this that the EEOC usually handles. In NO state does Having a consensual R in the past give the Om the right to harass her now. That's analogous to a man/woman claiming a continued right to intercourse, based on a past R. Past consent is not consent today. Everyone has the right to change their mind as your w clearly has. Thank GOD! I see why you don't want to make a bigger deal than necessary about it for now. I do. But please, do Keep a record of the calls and emails. HR is a place to start before launching a full scale "attack" if the time comes. But the phrase "I Hate You" is disturbing to me. I did practice criminal law some years ago and had a lot of violent offenders. This statement and his willingness to put it in writing is very surprising and not in a good way. Be wary and careful please.

Robx, I cringed when I read your response to breakaway some time ago when she discussed her abusive h. You challenged her so forcefully it made me wonder if you thought she was lying or deserved it as you implied both...and without any need, in my opinion. Then when she painstakingly answered you in almost a point by point rebuttal, which basically proved your error but instead of apologizing like anyone else would have, you persisted! Tell me that's not personal...on the contrary, there is an intentionally personal angle to this that's odd, and pretty bullying of you. You have showed that to me & other women who dare to disagree with you. Then you pretend "it's all good" when a man calls you on it, but it is not. It's offensive and seems...punitive. I do hope your own sitch improves so that you will be reconciled with your w, but in the meantime I sense a tremendous amount of projection going on here. I know this will trigger a nasty personal attack but someone has to stand up to you other than breakaway and tell you to stop making this all about punishing, (especially punishing women). We are not all shrews who need discipline or idiots who need manipulation.

This thread really needs to be about Tristan and how things are going well for him, with care towards the sitch at work so nothing bad happens there. Everything breakaway said is true from a legal standpoint, (Yes, I'm qualified to say that) so I can't believe you went off on her about it.

Tristan, the semi-legal issue of concern about bringing this all up for your w is that the OM will either deny all of it, or he'll bring up their past as his defense, but it is not a legal defense. (It's an explanation. He can say he was confused if she hasn't been clear, but that's not the case from what you are saying. And his explanation is not a legal defense to harrassment).
I totally understand your reluctance to stir things up more.
My concern is her safety. I think it's very strange for the OM to have written that email, so tell us if we're off base here. I mention her safety b/c it is like what some of my former clients wrote to their 'soon to be beaten or killed' gf's or wives. Rejection's a b&^%$ when it comes to some of these guys. If his w is gone and your w is gone, and he's alone...for some men, that's a nightmare and he sounds like a very unstable man. What's your take on him? I'd trust that more than out of context emails but still, it's weird. Does your w trust her HR dept? Some places have great HR's and some don't.

Good luck and keep up the great work.
J-
PS Tristan

I hope down the road in the not too distant future, you two can get to Retrovaille. It's a very good thing and a surprisingly helpful experience. I cannot recommend it highly enough, and we've done other wonderful workshops in the past but they were based on a happier m at the time. Retrovaille was just what we needed. Wish we had gone earlier. But truly, better late than never. smile

((( j )))
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/20/09 01:06 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
...Robx, I cringed when I read your response to breakaway some time ago when she discussed her abusive h. You challenged her so forcefully it made me wonder if you thought she was lying or deserved it as you implied both...and without any need, in my opinion. Then when she painstakingly answered you in almost a point by point rebuttal, which basically proved your error but instead of apologizing like anyone else would have, you persisted! Tell me that's not personal...on the contrary, there is an intentionally personal angle to this that's odd, and pretty bullying of you. You have showed that to me & other women who dare to disagree with you. Then you pretend "it's all good" when a man calls you on it, but it is not. It's offensive and seems...punitive. I do hope your own sitch improves so that you will be reconciled with your w, but in the meantime I sense a tremendous amount of projection going on here. I know this will trigger a nasty personal attack but someone has to stand up to you other than breakaway and tell you to stop making this all about punishing, (especially punishing women). We are not all shrews who need discipline or idiots who need manipulation.


25 I agree with you, Tristan's thread isn't for this.

As for breakaway, if her husband was truly abusive, her answer should be clear as to what she should do, she should leave him. There is no personal attack on her or you, I think you both are "projecting". If having an opinion is considered a personal attack well I'm sorry if I don't agree with that. I have re-read those original posts and maybe I'm just not seeing the fuss you're making, point it out to me if you have to, I'm not a mind reader, never will be. Apologizing for something that I don't think I did wrong just for the sake of apologizing just isn't right. Breakaway doesn't have to explain herself to me, and I don't have to explain to her, I don't know why you continue to bring this up 25yearsmlc. I would rather be honest than tell a lie and be deceitful. We also know that on this site, alot of WAS's rewrite history and I've even read posts by breakaway herself where she says her husband thinks she is crazy and blowing things out of proportion. 25 you are over generalizing, quote me on something that I said in regards to something breakaway said and call me on my hurtful words, explain to me what I've said wrong, I don't see it and if you can show it to me and explain it to me so that I can see my errors, I'll gladly apologize if I've truly been wrong about what I said.

As for what I said to breakaway about the legal issue,
she said and I'll quote that "no matter what she did", you can't make a blanket statement and say that a person will get off without any issues no matter what she did? It's not true. To further complicate things, say they go to court, what if the OM knows about her mental issues and brings that up, wouldn't it be possible for him to turn this around and on top of that seek punitive damages from her - see the word I used "possible". We don't live in a perfect world, if we did, we wouldn't need sites like divorcebusting.com among others, there would no affairs, marriages would be perfect, everyone would be honest, loving & caring but we all know that this isn't how things play out in the real world - I could tell you I'm a lawyer (I'm not) but how could you verify that, how can I verify what you know? I can't either, making grandiose statements about what would happen in a court of law is really just text on a website page.

Let's allow this thread to focus on tristan and his issues, stop making this about me, it's not necessary. Please & thank you.
Tristan, I am sorry to hijack, but am in desperate need of help and would like Robx to take a look at my thread. After 4 months I am now 100% sure that my wife is ahving an EA and possbily a PA. I have left a thread outlining what happened today and ROBX, I need some of your great advice on what to do. Anyone else who woud like to chime in please do. after confronting, she said she had the divorce papers ready to be signed. Of course i am hear because I dont want a divorce. Please, take a look and let me know what you think

Tristan, sorry again, but i know you understand the need for help.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1838839#Post1838839
Quote:
Everything breakaway said is true from a legal standpoint
you really think so?

as a lawyer, i would think the first thing you would have asked is what is the company's sexual harrassment policy, and how did they fail to act on that in an immediate and protective way?

so we have some girl, she like to dress in mini skirts without panties and talk in the cafeteria about her sexual escapades and oral fixations. she has been known to date men within the company, at least one of those ended in a not so pleasant breakup, and there are witnesses that she took part in a gangbang at a bachelor party. now she dates her boss. goes out on more than one date. initiates consensual sexual relations. oh yeah, dont forget about the company car and nice office space that she did not decline during this affair. then she goes stating she was sexually harrassed in the workplace.

good luck finding a jury that would hold that company liable for that supervisor's actions in that scenerio.
good luck finding a qualified labor law attorney willing to take that case scenerio on on a contingency fee basis.

and whats with the she "walked off with 50 grand?" I have never seen a settlement for a situation like this that did not have a very well defined confidentiality agreement, and here we have some woman blabbing about it on the Internet. In fact, I dont believe I have ever saw one that did not have a clause that if the confidentially agreement is broken the contract is null except for the clause that it is agreed upon that no sexual harrassment has taken place. hmmmmm... arbitration over this broken contract?

and 50 grand? that severance package is not even a years salary with continued benefits for a very low paying position. somebody really didnt have a case here and took whatever they could get.

To say, Sexual harassment is unwelcomed, inappropriate and continued is wrong IS WRONG. Breakaway might want to check with her Human Resource dept. for her company's Sexual Harrassment Policy; if anything it is interesting to find out how well defined these laws are to protect the company above the individual in these situations.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/20/09 01:31 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
PS Tristan

I hope down the road in the not too distant future, you two can get to Retrovaille. It's a very good thing and a surprisingly helpful experience. I cannot recommend it highly enough, and we've done other wonderful workshops in the past but they were based on a happier m at the time. Retrovaille was just what we needed. Wish we had gone earlier. But truly, better late than never. smile

((( j )))


J,

Thank you for your posts, I very much appreciate them. I did look into Retrovaille, the next one that would be available to us is in January. A little wrinkle in going to Retrovaille is that my W grew up in a Seventh Day Adventist church that didn't speak highly of the Catholic Church (you can Google it if you need to know more). I don't know how much it would bother her now, but it is in the back of my mind. So given that the next opportunity isn't until January anyway, I figured I can wait a little on this.

As for OM, I talked to his W a couple of months ago. She said that he was not abusive (physically or mentally). My W did not say that she was afraid for her safety at all; she mentioned it as more of an annoyance than anything. But given all of your concerns, I will bring it up again with her tonight to see if it is still a problem.

I don't know if HR can do much. They are in 2 different agencies now. She moved to another agency about a year ago. They still had contact though because these to Social Service agencies work closely together (he is COO of one, she is a Director at the other). As I stated before, she has already handed over all of the projects that would have contact with OM to one of her staff. So their should be no need for my W to communicate with OM now.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/20/09 01:42 PM
Journaling:
Tuesday Morning:
More good news! W called landlord yesterday to find out how she could get out of the lease on the apartment. The "For Rent" sign goes up today.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Tuesday Morning:
More good news! W called landlord yesterday to find out how she could get out of the lease on the apartment. The "For Rent" sign goes up today.


smile smile
Steve...I get it. The cases of which I do have knowledge, and the other two were more serious..were all brought into being when the relationship was over and the man resisted her ending it. The one I was supposed to be deposed over, you're exactly right, she was trying to see what she could get. It was extortion all around in a company run by narcissistic psychopaths who finally got bitten by one of their own kind. Of course she signed a confidentiality agreement. Of course she talked about it anyway. She took her newfound money and bought herself new boobs. She was real proud of those boobs. I've long since lost contact with any of these people. That company's long since been bought out. So yeah, I'm "blabbing about it on the internet" anonymously years later.

I know companies have those policies to protect themselves, but you and I both know there are situations where settlements ARE MADE to avoid trial and exposure of this kind of stuff. And whatever the HR policy is, some companies (and government agencies) still operate like glorified frat houses, and they still have to cover up for their "bad boys" sometimes.

The worst thing of all is, the people whose careers are actually HARMED are the normal people who don't participate in this crap when it's going on. I was the one who didn't go on certain trips to see important clients because it would get in the way of certain trysts. I was the one slandered and sabotaged because I "knew too much." I sure as hell didn't get a company car. It was all good though, because it gave me a reason to leave and get a better job I liked more somewhere else, with normal people.

Anyway, it's all a side conversation at this point.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/20/09 02:12 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Tuesday Morning:
More good news! W called landlord yesterday to find out how she could get out of the lease on the apartment. The "For Rent" sign goes up today.


You really turned it around Tristan,
seems like the finish line is up ahead, all I can offer at this point is not to get lazy and return to old ways when you start feeling comfortable again - this isn't a one time process, this is a continuous process on both of your parts but the rewards are worth the effort.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Tuesday Morning:
More good news! W called landlord yesterday to find out how she could get out of the lease on the apartment. The "For Rent" sign goes up today.


Awesome!
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Tuesday Morning:
More good news! W called landlord yesterday to find out how she could get out of the lease on the apartment. The "For Rent" sign goes up today.


..... this pleases me ......

smile
Posted By: 12bar Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/20/09 03:06 PM
Hi Tristan

Really glad to see that things are heading in a good direction for you! Keep up the good work!

-HBH
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Tuesday Morning:
More good news! W called landlord yesterday to find out how she could get out of the lease on the apartment. The "For Rent" sign goes up today.


NICE!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/21/09 01:59 PM
Thank you all for the nice messages. I am thanking God daily for this good fortune. For so long, it seemed nothing went right. I feel very fortunate.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/21/09 02:07 PM
I did ask W about OM last night.

M: "I need to ask. Is OM respecting your wishes?"
W: "No. Not really. He had K contact me and ask for a book back I had borrowed. He said he wanted to meet for 'closure'. At first I agreed, but then realized it was a bad idea and e-mailed him that it was best if we did not see each other."
M: "Is it harasment?"
W: "No. He is just hurting. Why do you ask?"
M: "I was thinking and its just that the 'I hate you statement' is concerning."
W: "I think he was just angry."
M: "Well. I know you know what is best."
...

I found this conversation uncomfortable. I think it was more uncomfortable for me than her. Anyway, I think she has a good guage on it and trust she will let me know if she thinks it is getting out of hand.
Originally Posted By: tristan
I did ask W about OM last night.

M: "I need to ask. Is OM respecting your wishes?"
W: "No. Not really. He had K contact me and ask for a book back I had borrowed. He said he wanted to meet for 'closure'. At first I agreed, but then realized it was a bad idea and e-mailed him that it was best if we did not see each other."
M: "Is it harasment?"
W: "No. He is just hurting. Why do you ask?"
M: "I was thinking and its just that the 'I hate you statement' is concerning."
W: "I think he was just angry."
M: "Well. I know you know what is best."
...

I found this conversation uncomfortable. I think it was more uncomfortable for me than her. Anyway, I think she has a good guage on it and trust she will let me know if she thinks it is getting out of hand.



Tristan,

It's VERY good that she was honest with you, and you need to get in the habit of saying "Thank you for being honest with me." You handled it with grace, and so did she. The "closure" line is classic wayward fogbabble, as you know, and it's VERY good that she caught herself on that. The only thing she should have done better/differently was to have a THIRD PARTY convey that "Mrs. Tristan is working on her marriage, and wants no contact with you. She asks that you respect her wishes. She did want to return your book, however, and wishes you well."

Is there a trusted person she can use as just such a third party?

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/21/09 03:17 PM
Thanks Puppy,

Yes there is a mutual friend that she could use as a third party. However, she seems to be handling it relatively well and I don't want to nit-pick. Things are going well between us; so I really don't feel like bringing OM up anymore unless there is a real need. Do you think it is worth bringing up with W?
Yes, I do, as ANY contact -- even negative contact -- resets her withdrawal "clock" back to 0:00:00.

But I would be very delicate, and positive, in how I handled it. Something like "You know, I was thinking about our conversation yesterday, and it occurred to me that I never said 'thank you' for being so honest with me when I asked if OM was respecting your wishes. That's huge, and I really appreciate you being so honest and transparent with me. I also think it's huge that you saw thru his 'closure' bullchit, and instead just did the e-mail. (pause) You know, you're probably the best catch he ever had, and speaking as a guy, he's probably NOT going to just go away quietly. Do you think that maybe ______ (the third party you have in mind), or someone else, could return his book, and handle any future contact for you? It would probably help you put all this behind you."

What do you think?

Puppy
My two cents is, whatever you decide to do on this particular matter, beware of getting into/back into a pattern where you're afraid to bring up possibly-contentious subjects because "things are going so well". Tiptoeing around each other isn't intimacy (and for my money, isn't a marriage either).

Is suppressing your own desires and/or concerns a price you wish to pay for continuing to be with your wife?

Whatever her health/emotional issues, she's the one who brought a third party into your marriage. Does her comfort trump your comfort on this matter?

Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
"You know, I was thinking about our conversation yesterday, and it occurred to me that I never said 'thank you' for being so honest with me when I asked if OM was respecting your wishes. That's huge, and I really appreciate you being so honest and transparent with me. I also think it's huge that you saw thru his 'closure' bullchit, and instead just did the e-mail. (pause) You know, you're probably the best catch he ever had, and speaking as a guy, he's probably NOT going to just go away quietly. Do you think that maybe ______ (the third party you have in mind), or someone else, could return his book, and handle any future contact for you? It would probably help you put all this behind you."

What do you think?

Puppy


i think it will probably get tristan laid.
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
My two cents is, whatever you decide to do on this particular matter, beware of getting into/back into a pattern where you're afraid to bring up possibly-contentious subjects because "things are going so well". Tiptoeing around each other isn't intimacy (and for my money, isn't a marriage either).


SO TRUE!!! Especially for us enmeshed, co-dependent, "Mr. Nice Guy" non-confrontational types! smirk
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/21/09 03:37 PM
I think maybe you guys misunderstood. She is not seeing him to return the book. She gave it to a third party. I thought you were talking about the e-mail that she sent directly to him that it was best if they didn't see each other.

And Kett. She actually said she was fine talking more about it if that is what I wanted. Right now, I am not sure if I need to talk more about though. I want to spend more time with IC & MC to find out how much I "need" to know before getting into it.
Heh. I wasn't pointing the finger at her, big guy. See puppy's post. Just be sure that you ask or don't ask based on what you *really* need/want, not fear of making waves.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/21/09 09:44 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Heh. I wasn't pointing the finger at her, big guy. See puppy's post. Just be sure that you ask or don't ask based on what you *really* need/want, not fear of making waves.


Yes. I know this is something I still need work on. It is true that at times I am afraid that I could upset her to the point that she would walk out again. I know this should not concern me, but it is very difficult attitude for me to take when I really do want things to work out between us.
Until you learn to let go of that fear, Tristan, you're never going to truly get anywhere.

You have to steel yourself against the fear, and push THRU it. Otherwise, you are a prisoner to it.

You can do this.

Puppy
Tristan I know exactly how you feel. PDT is right, we both know it...but doing it is another story.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 12:50 PM
Journaling:
Friday morning:

So we had an MC session yesterday and I had homework to come up with goals that would demonstrate that our marriage had improved. This is the 1 that I came up with:

"I want to be able converse openly and honestly on any subject with W without fear that it may damage relationship."

She was a little taken back by my goal and became a little defensive about it. Something to the point of "Do you really think that I am that bad?"

I pointed out that this was not her issue, it was mine. It was something that I needed to work on. This response calmed her down. She then said that it is good that our goals line up well. Hers is for us to be more open and honest with each other.

We plan on moving some of the smaller things from her apartment back to our place this weekend. My W says she can't wait to work on our home this weekend. Things are good.
Originally Posted By: tristan


She was a little taken back by my goal and became a little defensive about it. Something to the point of "Do you really think that I am that bad?"

I pointed out that this was not her issue, it was mine. It was something that I needed to work on.



Deftly handled, T. cool

Puppy
This is me taking notes. Nice work! I hope the move back goes well.
There's a definite "dance" aspect to this, that I think I failed to recognize (and act on), despite other people telling me to. There was simply too much resentment built up in me, both for my wife's near-20 years of sexual and affection distance, and for her affair two years ago. I knew I HAD to dance, but I was pissy and pouty and resentful and had a "oh, just F it" attitude.

The separation helped me to enjoy the dance again, and to learn how to pursue CORRECTLY. And it took (and I fear STILL takes) my wife fearing losing me to get HER to warm up and drop the veneer.

There's a lot more to it than that, but I just wanted to put that out there. We had lost being "Puppy" and "(Wife's first name)", and had become just "Mr. and Mrs. Puppy." The separate residence isn't a panacea, but it DOES help change the ROLES.

Puppy
I hope so too.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 07:17 PM

Just got a call from W. She had just hung up the phone with OM, who had sandbagged her with the call. She said she needed to talk to someone and I was the only one she could talk to. She said it started like this:

W: "Hello"
OM: "Hi."
W: "Uh hi." (didn't know who it was)
OM: "Hi. It's me."
W: "Ooohhh"
OM: "Don't hang up."
...

Talking to me:
W: "I wasn't going to hang up on him."
M: "Well. You need to stop contact."
W: "I didn't call him. He called me. I have not been returning his calls."
M: "I understand. But this needs to stop for your benefit. Its upsetting you. What did he say."
W: "He's upset. He's sad. This is so unncomfortable. I shouldn't be talking to you about this. But I don't have anyone else."
M: "No. Thats OK. Its part of being open and honest with each other."
W: "He had a life planned with me. Now its gone." (OK. I could have gone off on this one, but I didn't.) " He is devestated. He told me that he loves me and that he hopes I find peace. He said you are a lucky guy."
M: "I know that."
W: "I'm just sad. I don't know why I am crying."
M: "I understand."
W: "He just needs to find someone else. He will be OK."
M: "Yes he will."
<silence>
M: "Mmmmm"
W: "Its OK. You don't need to say anything. I just needed to vent."
M: "Thank you. I'm listening."
...

Ouch. It is painful to hear how W hurts for OM. But I need to be the guy that is there for her. She is sad. Is there anything I can do for this? I know I need to coach her on what to do if it happens again, but now is not the time for that.

Any suggestions on what to do tonight? I am thinking of stopping by and getting a good comedy to watch together after the girls go to bed.
Ugh, I dunno. I'd always read where they're supposed to be able to talk to you about anything OTHER than "I miss OM!"

I think it's ok (necessary, in fact) for her to tell you about the CONTACT. And you handled it well. I just think she shouldn't be telling you she MISSES him, which this comes damned close to approaching.

One way I've seen it handled (Hope4Us has been really good with this) is to use it as an opportunity to talk about the consequences/dynamics/etc. of infidelity; validating, without enabling. So maybe something like:

"I hate to see you hurting, and I understand you feel partially responsible for his pain. This (notice I didn't say "but") is a consequence of him deciding to have an affair with a married woman, and he's just going to have to work thru it with his family" (or whatever)

Puppy
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 07:33 PM
Quote:
I hate to see you hurting, and I understand you feel partially responsible for his pain. This (notice I didn't say "but") is a consequence of him deciding to have an affair with a married woman, and he's just going to have to work thru it with his family" (or whatever)


Stick that in your quiver.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 07:36 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
"I hate to see you hurting, and I understand you feel partially responsible for his pain. This (notice I didn't say "but") is a consequence of him deciding to have an affair with a married woman, and he's just going to have to work thru it with his family" (or whatever)


I said something to the affect that when he engaged in this that people were going to be hurt. That he knew what he was getting himself into. I also told her to not let him make her feel guilty for her choices to stay with her family.
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
"I hate to see you hurting, and I understand you feel partially responsible for his pain. This (notice I didn't say "but") is a consequence of him deciding to have an affair with a married woman, and he's just going to have to work thru it with his family" (or whatever)

Puppy


whistle whistle whistle
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
"I hate to see you hurting, and I understand you feel partially responsible for his pain. This (notice I didn't say "but") is a consequence of him deciding to have an affair with a married woman, and he's just going to have to work thru it with his family" (or whatever)


I said something to the affect that when he engaged in this that people were going to be hurt. That he knew what he was getting himself into. I also told her to not let him make her feel guilty for her choices to stay with her family.


Excellent.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 07:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
I hate to see you hurting, and I understand you feel partially responsible for his pain. This (notice I didn't say "but") is a consequence of him deciding to have an affair with a married woman, and he's just going to have to work thru it with his family" (or whatever)


Stick that in your quiver.


All you guys have already filled my quiver. Need to find another place for it.
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
"I hate to see you hurting, and I understand you feel partially responsible for his pain. This (notice I didn't say "but") is a consequence of him deciding to have an affair with a married woman, and he's just going to have to work thru it with his family" (or whatever)

Puppy


whistle whistle whistle


grin
Well, she can feel a little guilty for her choices. Yes, OM absolutely brought it on himself. But she was a player in that emotional game too. The only way to avoid feeling the kind of guilt she's feeling right now (which IS a consequence of her past actions) is not to get emotionally involved with Man Two when she's married to Man One. There is just no way *someone* doesn't get hurt there, and it's a good lesson for her to learn and remember.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 07:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Well, she can feel a little guilty for her choices. Yes, OM absolutely brought it on himself. But she was a player in that emotional game too. The only way to avoid feeling the kind of guilt she's feeling right now (which IS a consequence of her past actions) is not to get emotionally involved with Man Two when she's married to Man One. There is just no way *someone* doesn't get hurt there, and it's a good lesson for her to learn and remember.


Yes. But I think she knows that without me telling her.
Time to contact this A'hole and tell him to get lost!
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Well, she can feel a little guilty for her choices. Yes, OM absolutely brought it on himself. But she was a player in that emotional game too. The only way to avoid feeling the kind of guilt she's feeling right now (which IS a consequence of her past actions) is not to get emotionally involved with Man Two when she's married to Man One. There is just no way *someone* doesn't get hurt there, and it's a good lesson for her to learn and remember.


Yes. But I think she knows that without me telling her.


Then why are you telling her, "Don't feel guilty?" If it was clearly "Don't feel guilty about sticking to your decision to break it off with him", that's one thing. Otherwise ....

Edit: sorry, read more carefully, sounds like that was the context. Never mind.
Originally Posted By: tristan
I know I need to coach her on what to do if it happens again, but now is not the time for that.




when the time is right, say to her:

"I just wanted to thank you for being so open and honest with me the other day when you told me about OM contacting you. Not only do I appreciate you keeping your promise of transparency, I know it wasn't easy for you to be able to tell me that it pains you to see him hurting. I gotta be honest, that's VERY hard for me to hear, and as we talked about it is a consequence to the choices and decisions he made, but I really just wanted to thank you."

(then let her talk)

then, "You know, every time you have contact with him -- even if he initiates it, and even if it's negative -- it's just going to make it that much more difficult for you to move on, emotionally. He needs to respect your request that 'no contact means no contact.' More importantly, I need to be able to feel safe in the marriage, considering all that's happened. Although I appreciate you telling me, I'm not going to be able to build trust with you if he keeps contacting you."

(notice, NO MR. FIX-IT, MARTIAN SOLUTIONS YET) -- (let her talk)

Maybe she'll have a solution.

If she doesn't, let it lie for now. There will be another day (and she may even approach you) to suggest another plank in your transparency shield.

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 07:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Time to contact this A'hole and tell him to get lost!


Who else agrees with this? I am tempted.
Posted By: TrentC Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 07:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
I hate to see you hurting, and I understand you feel partially responsible for his pain. This (notice I didn't say "but") is a consequence of him deciding to have an affair with a married woman, and he's just going to have to work thru it with his family" (or whatever)


Stick that in your quiver.


I'm remembering this one for sure.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Time to contact this A'hole and tell him to get lost!


Who else agrees with this? I am tempted.


I am generally against direct confrontation with OM -- it only elevates them in importance, it draws them together, you may not be able to control your emotions, yadda, yadda, yadda.

but I'll be honest, it's always been in the context of a CURRENT affair. If it's over? And the couple are trying to reconcile, and OM isn't honoring the FWAW's request of no-contact?

Hmmm . . .
Mmmmm. I'm torn. Listen to the guys of experience on this one, I think.

Although I will say .... she said, "I couldn't hang up on him." Ok, if that's where she is, she's got a ways to go and some work to do. It's very very important (IMHO) for her to be ABLE to hang up on him. She wasn't coerced or threatened back into her marriage. It was her choice. She needs to fully own that. Part of the consequences of that choice is being able to tell outside parties, "NO!" and mean it.

If you run him off, seems to me you're rescuing......

ETA: If she gets to the point where she IS hanging up and he's still calling .... go get him.
He has no importance to elevate anymore. he is an obsessive leech that is resetting the no contact clock.

he must disappear from your lives, now.
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen

he must disappear from your lives, now.


Hmmm, sounds like McQueen "knows a guy" . . . wink
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 07:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
Mmmmm. I'm torn. Listen to the guys of experience on this one, I think.

Although I will say .... she said, "I couldn't hang up on him." Ok, if that's where she is, she's got a ways to go and some work to do. It's very very important (IMHO) for her to be ABLE to hang up on him. She wasn't coerced or threatened back into her marriage. It was her choice. She needs to fully own that. Part of the consequences of that choice is being able to tell outside parties, "NO!" and mean it.

If you run him off, seems to me you're rescuing......

ETA: If she gets to the point where she IS hanging up and he's still calling .... go get him.


Good point. She is a big girl. She can hang up. I should not need to fight this battle.
remember your very first post where you said, i basically gave her a pass with other man. you are not that man anymore!

(no more hall passes for those who smoke in the bathroom)

unable to control your emotions? Hell Yeah.

I would fight for my wife!
Scare him off. Your wife will always remember how you were willing to fight for her. that you under no circumstances were willing to have another man try to steal her from you.

TESTOSTERONE!
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 08:10 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Time to contact this A'hole and tell him to get lost!


Who else agrees with this? I am tempted.


Not me, I'm too much of a ufc fan,
and I don't have enough discipline yet to keep my MMA skills in check, something in me might want to punch him so hard that he spits his teeth out like watermelon seeds.

With all the personal satisfaction that could be derived from that type of action, I'm not sure I could hold myself back - that's just me being honest.

I don't think i'm unique like that too, that's healthy testosterone speaking.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 08:12 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Steve McQueen
Time to contact this A'hole and tell him to get lost!


Who else agrees with this? I am tempted.


Not me, I'm too much of a ufc fan,
and I don't have enough discipline yet to keep my MMA skills in check, something in me might want to punch him so hard that he spits his teeth out like watermelon seeds.

With all the personal satisfaction that could be derived from that type of action, I'm not sure I could hold myself back - that's just me being honest.

I don't think i'm unique like that too, that's healthy testosterone speaking.


No you are not unique. Good to know I am healthy.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 08:18 PM
LOL!

Yes very healthy!

But what is the motivation behind that action, I'm asking myself that right now. If it was me and I was thinking about doing that, why would I be like that?

Am I jealous?

Am I protective?

Over protective?

Angry?

Someone stepped over boundaries and had intimate contact with my wife and now I feel like I have to step over his boundaries and rearrange his molecular structure? (metaphorically speaking)
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 08:24 PM
Originally Posted By: robx


Am I jealous?

Am I protective?

Over protective?

Angry?



I am just frickin tired of him injecting himself into my W life. And to be honest, probably all of the above.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/23/09 08:40 PM
NO... you're tired of him being part of your life.
He's trying to take back your wife, he had her for a bit, he was successful once, he's not going to give up easily because he thinks he can do it again. Notice how he told your wife that you are a 'lucky guy' because she went back to you, and she felt sorry for him when he said that, the feelings still exist in her for him, I doubt you could just extinguish that flame they had so easily.

Being jealous though is insecure - and you AREN'T insecure.

You're a strong man, never forget it!
Originally Posted By: robx
But what is the motivation behind that action,


my motivation would have been this statement:

Quote:

W: "He had a life planned with me. Now its gone." (OK. I could have gone off on this one, but I didn't.) " He is devestated. He told me that he loves me and that he hopes I find peace. He said you are a lucky guy."


obvious now that it wasnt just an emotional affair.
sorry but i would have destroyed him if i heard that from my wife. you have more self control then me.
Posted By: Gardener Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/25/09 04:40 AM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
ETA: If she gets to the point where she IS hanging up and he's still calling .... go get him.

Definitely. All bets off.
Posted By: ryepatch Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/26/09 08:37 AM
i agree with the above. eventually she's going to have to stop taking his calls. she's a married woman, he should understand that.

at some point, she might need to take legal action against him to stop him from trying to contact her.

i wouldn't make any ultimatums right now, though.

you are doing great, tristan. stay cool.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/26/09 01:23 PM
Journaling:
Monday morning:
So W was relatively quiet Friday evening. We all stayed at her place that night so that we could get an early start on packing things Saturday morning. I could tell she was a little blue, she said that she really liked the apartment but knew that we could find a better place together.

On Saturday W perked up and we got a ton done for being 2 people who also had to take care of 2 girls. We worked from about 8:00 in the morning till about 1:00 AM moving and rearranging the house. And she still had the energy to ML afterward.

We made it up on Sunday in time to go to church at 9:00. Then took the girls out to buy their Halloween costumes. In the afternoon, we continued our work from Saturday. Had a short family night. Put the girls to bed. W then worked on a presentation for a business trip this week. She finished sometime after midnight. We found time to ML again. We woke up at 5:00 this morning so she could pack. She was out the door for her trip by 7:00. She will be away till Thursday.

I don't know if this is considered hypo-mania or if it just plain working hard. But whatever it is, I can live with it smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/26/09 01:30 PM
Originally Posted By: robx

Being jealous though is insecure - and you AREN'T insecure.


Rob,

I am 10x more confident than I was just a few months ago. But we are all human, we all have insecurities. I'm not sure simply ignoring them is handling it. I like to think I can acknowledge them and overcome.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/26/09 01:59 PM
Good!

Just don't show your wife that you are jealous,
being jealous is being insecure and that is an attraction killer,
in fact, I think the 180 is this,
"... wife you can talk to the OM, I can't stop you either way, but I think we both know you have to let go of him, and I know that I'm not going to live my life worrying if you're 2nd guessing us and wanting to be with the OM, I love you and I'm confident you will make the decision that's right for you."

How's that?

Not controlling, you're acknowledging the OM that is continuing to contact your wife, you show that you're not insecure and you aren't ignoring this situation but you're letting your wife take responsibility for this issue because this is her issue to deal with.

Either that or continue doing nothing.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/26/09 02:21 PM
Originally Posted By: robx
Good!

Either that or continue doing nothing.



I am currently going with the ignore him approach. I went with a short discussion on Friday thanking her for letting me know about the phone call. I also mentioned that it was good to talk about it even though it was difficult on both of us.

We haven't talked about him since. I got the feeling that she knew what was right and what needed to happen. At one point she got a little defensive:

...
W: "I didn't call him." (a little frustrated)
M: "I'm not blaming you. I'm just stating it is hard on both of us."
W: "Yes. I know. I think he got the message this time that I don't want to talk to him anymore."
...

This statement makes me think that she believes this has concluded. I will wait and see how his next attempt of contact plays out.
Originally Posted By: tristan

W: "Yes. I know. I think he got the message this time that I don't want to talk to him anymore."
...

This statement makes me think that she believes this has concluded. I will wait and see how his next attempt of contact plays out.


That's the problem. Because it doesn't matter if SHE believes it, if it doesn't happen.

And predators rarely "get the message."

That's why transparency plans are needed. Whether you, strong-armed, set one up or whether you set it up as per above with a "you know what you need to do," the fact is that one WILL need to be put in place, because the pursue-ee can have the best intentions in the world, but if the pursue-ER ignores them, there's GOING to be contact, and that contact (even if it's negative) WILL set your wife back.

Puppy
Tristan, as in all things in life, you will not be able to control every single that happens, nor should you. I think you already know that.

Let's keep things in perspective. She has resisted his attempts to see her again (like returning the book). He called, she answered. She regrets it I am sure. All it did was make her feel bad, all the way around. She doesn't WANT contact with him. It happened that time. She was open and honest with you about it, I don't know how that isn't "transparent." Or how that is second guessing your marriage. All her actions indicate moving forward with you, so I don't think saying or implying she's second guessing because of one miserable phone call is necessary. Take it one day at a time. I don't see where her attitude in this is that she MISSES him so much and is undecided and waffling. It was one call and it wasn't pleasant.

He may continue to try. It makes him look pathetic, miserable, and selfish. It will not draw her closer to him. He is ignoring her feelings.

It is counter-intuitive to ignore a harasser but that is the best tactic. That doesn't mean you are ignoring the situation, just HIM. I recommend NOT confronting him, why? Because people like that don't think the way we do. A normal person would be intimidated, a weirdo will feel justified.

Ignore/bore him into oblivion, he will find someone else to get his drama. It's hard, but effective.

Last thing, your wife doesn't need any strong arm approaches. She's shown that she will now act in good faith towards the marriage, if not perfectly. She is probably being a bit naive right now, but don't panic, and give her some space. Giving her space has only brought her closer and closer. She is also confiding in her friends right now, apparently, and they clearly think the guy is bad news. They will also continue to influence her. You have NO IDEA how persistent girlfriends will be in this arena. wink

Stay cool... cool
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/26/09 03:44 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Tristan, as in all things in life, you will not be able to control every single that happens, nor should you. I think you already know that.

Let's keep things in perspective. She has resisted his attempts to see her again (like returning the book). He called, she answered. She regrets it I am sure. All it did was make her feel bad, all the way around. She doesn't WANT contact with him. It happened that time. She was open and honest with you about it, I don't know how that isn't "transparent." Or how that is second guessing your marriage. All her actions indicate moving forward with you, so I don't think saying or implying she's second guessing because of one miserable phone call is necessary. Take it one day at a time. I don't see where her attitude in this is that she MISSES him so much and is undecided and waffling. It was one call and it wasn't pleasant.

He may continue to try. It makes him look pathetic, miserable, and selfish. It will not draw her closer to him. He is ignoring her feelings.

It is counter-intuitive to ignore a harasser but that is the best tactic. That doesn't mean you are ignoring the situation, just HIM. I recommend NOT confronting him, why? Because people like that don't think the way we do. A normal person would be intimidated, a weirdo will feel justified.

Ignore/bore him into oblivion, he will find someone else to get his drama. It's hard, but effective.

Last thing, your wife doesn't need any strong arm approaches. She's shown that she will now act in good faith towards the marriage, if not perfectly. She is probably being a bit naive right now, but don't panic, and give her some space. Giving her space has only brought her closer and closer. She is also confiding in her friends right now, apparently, and they clearly think the guy is bad news. They will also continue to influence her. You have NO IDEA how persistent girlfriends will be in this arena. wink

Stay cool... cool


99% of this post is spot on (yes even I can admit that), that last part about the girlfriends, I'm sure they were in on the affair as well, encouraging it, that's the part that you can't control as well - some of them probably encouraged her moving on with her life. leave you and telling her to do better, etc. And unfortunately some of them will still have that mindset.

The only thing you can really do is give her space, ignore the OM, talk to her when she wants to talk but don't attempt to try & fix anything, be her sounding post, allow her to talk to you & open up to you and be secure with you, continue getting a life, maintain your personal life, give her the gift of missing you every now & then and make sure that those times you guys are together are really good times. Don't bad mouth the OM, all you do is give him attention and there is no such thing as bad publicity. Ignore him, you can't confront him, if you did, you & I both know your self-control would be out the window and he would need to look up a good dentist afterwards for extensive dental repairs. No jealousy, no insecurity, just keep on doing what you did to get you here because it worked. Continue being a great dad, continue being a great spouse and continue being a great YOU.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/26/09 05:38 PM
Originally Posted By: breakaway
Tristan, as in all things in life, you will not be able to control every single that happens, nor should you. I think you already know that.

Let's keep things in perspective. She has resisted his attempts to see her again (like returning the book). He called, she answered. She regrets it I am sure. All it did was make her feel bad, all the way around. She doesn't WANT contact with him. It happened that time. She was open and honest with you about it, I don't know how that isn't "transparent." Or how that is second guessing your marriage. All her actions indicate moving forward with you, so I don't think saying or implying she's second guessing because of one miserable phone call is necessary. Take it one day at a time. I don't see where her attitude in this is that she MISSES him so much and is undecided and waffling. It was one call and it wasn't pleasant.

He may continue to try. It makes him look pathetic, miserable, and selfish. It will not draw her closer to him. He is ignoring her feelings.

It is counter-intuitive to ignore a harasser but that is the best tactic. That doesn't mean you are ignoring the situation, just HIM. I recommend NOT confronting him, why? Because people like that don't think the way we do. A normal person would be intimidated, a weirdo will feel justified.

Ignore/bore him into oblivion, he will find someone else to get his drama. It's hard, but effective.

Last thing, your wife doesn't need any strong arm approaches. She's shown that she will now act in good faith towards the marriage, if not perfectly. She is probably being a bit naive right now, but don't panic, and give her some space. Giving her space has only brought her closer and closer. She is also confiding in her friends right now, apparently, and they clearly think the guy is bad news. They will also continue to influence her. You have NO IDEA how persistent girlfriends will be in this arena. wink

Stay cool... cool


I agree whole-heatedly Breakaway. I think on his next attempt, she will just hang up. Puppy, you mentioned that she should propose a solution. Does she really need to explain her "plan" or can she just carry it out?
Tristan -

I am so happy to read how your sitch is playing out...You are doing wonderfully...I will say I agree with Puppy 100% about transparency...When I first read DB, the first thing I did was make a list of what would be acceptable if H does in fact want to come home and the number one is Transperancy/NC...This is about what you and her need to move forward together smile
Originally Posted By: tristan
Puppy, you mentioned that she should propose a solution. Does she really need to explain her "plan" or can she just carry it out?


That would depend entirely on how safe YOU would feel in not having an explanation of what it is she's put in place. The whole point of a transparency plan is for the betrayed spouse to feel safe again in the relationship. It's the old "trust, but verify" thing. Unless it's something that you can verify from time to time, I can see where all of your old doubts and fears would start creeping up again, no??

Puppy
Originally Posted By: breakaway
. . .

. . .It was one call and it wasn't pleasant.

He may continue to try. It makes him look pathetic, miserable, and selfish. It will not draw her closer to him. He is ignoring her feelings.


Breakaway, I know you and I have debated this before, but this simply isn't supported by the facts and known research. LOGICALLY, it makes perfect sense, but the fact is that PHYSIOLOGICALLY, even negative contact triggers the same endorphines that make affairs so highly addictive, and reset the withdrawal "clock" to 0:00:00.

I agree with you if it comes across as "strong-arming," he's not doing it right, and it won't be effective. It should come across as necessary, reluctant, and temporary.

Necessary to end all contact, until such time she can fully withdrawal from him; he should convey that he's reluctant to have to do this; and that it won't have to be forever -- it's only temporary. Maybe 6-12 months.

Puppy
Posted By: Gardener Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/26/09 09:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
It's the old "trust, but verify" thing. Puppy
I've always loved that phrase since Reagan first started using it with Gorbachev.

Because:
It's sounds good
It even rhymes in Russian
And it's an oxymoron. It means, "Don't trust." whistle

It was Reagan's version of the old definition of Irish diplomacy: "The ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a manner that he looks forward to the trip." laugh
Okay, I'm done now ...
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/27/09 12:45 AM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

That would depend entirely on how safe YOU would feel in not having an explanation of what it is she's put in place. The whole point of a transparency plan is for the betrayed spouse to feel safe again in the relationship. It's the old "trust, but verify" thing. Unless it's something that you can verify from time to time, I can see where all of your old doubts and fears would start creeping up again, no??

Puppy


The thing is that she has been completely transparent as far as I know. Yes, she has had a little trouble with NC. But it has been him trying to contact her, not the other way around. She is giving a good faith effort to completely break all contact. I think I can give her a little time to perfect it.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/27/09 01:57 AM
Journaling:
Monday Evening:
I admit it. I danced goofey to Miley Cyrus with the girls tonight and liked it. I used to be so serious. I have really changed over this past year.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/27/09 02:05 AM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Monday Evening:
I admit it. I danced goofey to Miley Cyrus with the girls tonight and liked it. I used to be so serious. I have really changed over this past year.


Don't get me started on this one,
I have 2 children: a boy & a girl and they have a karaoke machine and my little girl is the ultimate hannah montana fan, UGGG!!! I'm either backup guitar when they're "jammin'" or I'm the video crew videotaping their next "video", LOL! It is fun, lots of fun!
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Monday Evening:
I admit it. I danced goofey to Miley Cyrus with the girls tonight and liked it. I used to be so serious. I have really changed over this past year.


Don't get me started on this one,
I have 2 children: a boy & a girl and they have a karaoke machine and my little girl is the ultimate hannah montana fan, UGGG!!! I'm either backup guitar when they're "jammin'" or I'm the video crew videotaping their next "video", LOL! It is fun, lots of fun!


Yeah. But do you (a) have the Hannah Montana wig and (b) have you worn it?
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/27/09 02:48 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Monday Evening:
I admit it. I danced goofey to Miley Cyrus with the girls tonight and liked it. I used to be so serious. I have really changed over this past year.


Don't get me started on this one,
I have 2 children: a boy & a girl and they have a karaoke machine and my little girl is the ultimate hannah montana fan, UGGG!!! I'm either backup guitar when they're "jammin'" or I'm the video crew videotaping their next "video", LOL! It is fun, lots of fun!


Yeah. But do you (a) have the Hannah Montana wig and (b) have you worn it?


My daughter has the blonde wig, the headset with mic, the guitar with custom hannah montana sound byte buttons & sound effects - the wig is not a good look for me ;-)
We can't take your word for that, Rob. You must post documentary evidence in the alt. (grin)

Tristan, I love to hear that you're doing silly, wonderful things with your girls. Good show, old bean!
Posted By: Dia Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/27/09 03:24 AM
Originally Posted By: Kettricken
We can't take your word for that, Rob. You must post documentary evidence in the alt. (grin)

Tristan, I love to hear that you're doing silly, wonderful things with your girls. Good show, old bean!


I'm with Kett.

Pic or it didn't happen!!
smile These posts mean nothing without pictures.... smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/27/09 10:54 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Originally Posted By: robx
Originally Posted By: tristan
Journaling:
Monday Evening:
I admit it. I danced goofey to Miley Cyrus with the girls tonight and liked it. I used to be so serious. I have really changed over this past year.


Don't get me started on this one,
I have 2 children: a boy & a girl and they have a karaoke machine and my little girl is the ultimate hannah montana fan, UGGG!!! I'm either backup guitar when they're "jammin'" or I'm the video crew videotaping their next "video", LOL! It is fun, lots of fun!


Yeah. But do you (a) have the Hannah Montana wig and (b) have you worn it?


We have the wig. Haven't had the chance to wear it yet. I think I am with Rob on that one, not sure it would be a good look for me.
Tristan - You sound so much better lately - Prayers and hugs to you my friend!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/28/09 03:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Serenity13
Tristan - You sound so much better lately - Prayers and hugs to you my friend!


Hi Serenity and all others that have been so kind to follow and post on this thread. Yes, I have been doing much better lately. Much of this is due to the improvements in my sitch. I know I have worked hard to get here, but I can't help but think I am just fortunate.

All of us work so hard here. We all deserve better. I pray that you all find that which you seek and wish you nothing but the best.

Thank you Serenity. By the way, I mentioned your "candle in a huricane" comment to my W. She could relate. She says she often feels like a "feather in the wind".
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/28/09 03:29 PM
Journaling:
Wednesday:
I hardly got a wink of sleep last night. No reason for it other than maybe some annoying itching from my eczema. I am extremely tired this morning.

It was "Fathers walk children to school" day this morning. It was a little sad, I doubt 20% of the fathers showed up. D6's class had 2 fathers there out of 15.
Good Morning Tristan ~

Sorry to hear you are tired today but I commend you for still getting up and doing the fatherly thing with your D smile

I like the comment your wife made and I can see exactly how she is feeling when she says that - It sucks however I know where my anchor lies, I just have to keep reminding myself wink

(((Hugs))) and prayers to you smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/29/09 09:05 PM
Journaling:
Thursday Afternoon:
W called me yesterday around noon in tears ready to quit her job. I guess her manager (the COO) insulted her over the phone with a few of her staff around. I guess she told my W that "you can do nothing right" in a little more colorful language. No need to get into it, but it was unwarranted. I told my W to sit on the decission to quit for a while until she calmed down. Which she agreed to do.

She called again in the evening (she is still on the business trip) saying that she was in a better mood and would wait till Friday to make the decission. But also said that she does not need to put up with that kind of disrespect. I told her that I completely understood. She comes home tonight.

Went to the IC this afternoon. He believes that I am diong well and we agreed that I only need to see him monthly now. We talked about this past year and what may have happened with my W's diagnosis, the meds, the affair, etc. He suggested I read up on atypical bi-polar and ask if I can join in my W's appointment with the psychiatrist next week. Any suggestions on how I should bring it up?

All in all, things are well with me.
Posted By: 12bar Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 10/29/09 09:39 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan


All in all, things are well with me.


So glad to hear it! You definitely seem like you guys are getting to a better place smile

My W went to her therapist last week and they discussed my depression. She came home and just mentioned to me that her therapist had suggested that she attend one of my therapy sessions to get a better understanding of my depression. You could just relay it as your IC's suggestion and see if she responds positively, negatively or neutrally and go from there.

-HBH
(((Tristan)))

You are doing wonderfully ~ Keep it up smile
I'd just tell her what your IC said and ask her what she thinks about it. Be open to her thoughts and feedback.

If you're there though you may hear some things that would be tough to hear.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/02/09 02:56 PM
Journaling:
Monday morning:
Another busy weekend, but we have everything out of her apartment and back in our home. Now I am looking for a way to get out of the lease. I have asked the landlord for a copy of the contract, he has yet to produce it. W is upset with herself over how much it will cost to get out of this. She says it is "eating at her inside".

She has her psych appointment. I asked if she would like to join her. She was pretty resistant. Asking "Why do I want to go?", "What are you going to say?" and "It seems wierd to take my husband." I told her that my IC thought it would be a good idea. She told me she would ask him if he thought it would be good for me to join her.

Anyway, the house looks very nice. My W does a great job of decorating. Things are going well.
Originally Posted By: tristan


She has her psych appointment. I asked if she would like to join her. She was pretty resistant. Asking "Why do I want to go?", "What are you going to say?" and "It seems wierd to take my husband." I told her that my IC thought it would be a good idea. She told me she would ask him if he thought it would be good for me to join her.

Anyway, the house looks very nice. My W does a great job of decorating. Things are going well.


Enhh, I don't like this idea. There is a role for an IC and a role for an MC. Last time I checked, the "I" in IC stood for "Individual Counselor."

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/02/09 03:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: tristan


She has her psych appointment. I asked if she would like to join her. She was pretty resistant. Asking "Why do I want to go?", "What are you going to say?" and "It seems wierd to take my husband." I told her that my IC thought it would be a good idea. She told me she would ask him if he thought it would be good for me to join her.

Anyway, the house looks very nice. My W does a great job of decorating. Things are going well.


Enhh, I don't like this idea. There is a role for an IC and a role for an MC. Last time I checked, the "I" in IC stood for "Individual Counselor."

Puppy


Hi Puppy. Not her appointment with her IC. This is her appointment with the psychiatrist.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: tristan


She has her psych appointment. I asked if she would like to join her. She was pretty resistant. Asking "Why do I want to go?", "What are you going to say?" and "It seems wierd to take my husband." I told her that my IC thought it would be a good idea. She told me she would ask him if he thought it would be good for me to join her.

Anyway, the house looks very nice. My W does a great job of decorating. Things are going well.


Enhh, I don't like this idea. There is a role for an IC and a role for an MC. Last time I checked, the "I" in IC stood for "Individual Counselor."

Puppy


Hi Puppy. Not her appointment with her IC. This is her appointment with the psychiatrist.


OK, so YOUR individual counselor thinks it would be a good idea for you to go with her to HER psychiatrist.

My point remains. Why?? Seems paternalistic, controlling, almost condescending to me.

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/02/09 03:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: tristan


She has her psych appointment. I asked if she would like to join her. She was pretty resistant. Asking "Why do I want to go?", "What are you going to say?" and "It seems wierd to take my husband." I told her that my IC thought it would be a good idea. She told me she would ask him if he thought it would be good for me to join her.

Anyway, the house looks very nice. My W does a great job of decorating. Things are going well.


Enhh, I don't like this idea. There is a role for an IC and a role for an MC. Last time I checked, the "I" in IC stood for "Individual Counselor."

Puppy


Hi Puppy. Not her appointment with her IC. This is her appointment with the psychiatrist.


OK, so YOUR individual counselor thinks it would be a good idea for you to go with her to HER psychiatrist.

My point remains. Why?? Seems paternalistic, controlling, almost condescending to me.

Puppy


A couple of things I have been told.
1. Many psychiatrist like information from different perspectives. "Collaboritive information" is what my IC called it.

2. My W's diagnosis is bipolar. I am told there are things that spouses can do to help find "triggers" that initiate mood swings etc.

Truthfully, I do not know a lot other than a book I read on bipolar and my IC both say it is a good thing. In any case, I did not push it. She is going to the appointment today alone and will ask the psychiatrist if he thinks it would be a good idea for the next appointment.
Gotcha.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/05/09 08:25 PM
Journaling:
Thursday Afternoon:
So W cancelled appointment with psych. She did it because she did not let her manager know about it ahead of time. And since things had blown up between them, she did not want to give her manager any more reason to lay into her. She says she is going to reschedule, but hasn't yet.

She called Tuesday morning crying because of how bad her manager was treating her. It is bad, one of her staff told her she should quit. She asked if we could cancel the MC session for that day, but I convinced her to go saying that it sounded like she really needed to talk to the counselor. She agreed to go.

The MC session essentially became an IC for her. We first described the stress associated with us attempting to come to an agreement with the landlord for an early termination of the lease. This will cost us a decent amount and my W is feeling guilty over it. Which leads to the problem with her manager; she would really like to quit but feels the need to keep working because of the money she has spent on apartment. The MC told W that she really doesn't need to deal with the disrespect she is receiving. W said that MC makes a lot of sense and that she needs to think about what she really wants to do.

Today we gave a written offer and check for early termination of lease to the landlord. It is equivalent to rent for Nov, Dec, and Jan; don't know what we will do if he does not accept it. Neither W nor I want to be straddled with this monthly reminder of what happened.

So even though our lives are currently stressful; our M seems to be holding up quite well.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/05/09 08:28 PM
Quote:
The MC told W that she really doesn't need to deal with the disrespect she is receiving. W said that MC makes a lot of sense and that she needs to think about what she really wants to do.


Teach your wife how to set a boundary. There is also a good book on this for the workplace called "Crucial Conversations."
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/05/09 10:08 PM
Thanks Coach. By the way, I told her a little bit about Greek and your story. She requested I ask Greek how she got over the money spent by the two of you during the seperation. This is something that she says is "Eating at her inside". I told her that she will get over it with time, but does Greek have any wise words for her?

Thank you.
-T
Posted By: 12bar Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/05/09 10:21 PM
Hi Tristan, just checking in the see how things are going. Glad to see things are progressing in a positive direction as far as the M is concerned. I hope that your early termination proposal works out. Does your lease allow you to sublet the apartment in the event that your landlord doesn't accept it?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/05/09 10:28 PM
Hi HBH. We are not allowed to sublet it ourselves. However, state law requires the landlord to accept a new renter if they are qualified. So we could find someone ourselves and then have the landlord switch the lease. So anybody out there need a wonderful 3BR colonial? laugh

Seriously though, both of us really do just want to get this whole thing behind us.
Tristan - Strangely enough, again we are in the same boat. She stayed one month in the apt and this last weekend we moved everything out. The landlord (large corporation) does not seem to really be wanting to do any type of early termination. They said they would try to rent it out and then we would be released.

My W is feeling that same type of guilt and everything that goes along with it. I would love to get it behind us. $1k per month for nothing sucks bad.

Let me know how your offer turns out. I may try something similar.
Tristan ~

Just making my rounds and checking in to see you...

Seems you are doing wonderfully though I never doubted it. smile

On a previous page, you mentioned your IC wanted you to maybe go to psych appt. with wife?

Being bipolar, here is my 2 cents - Don't force that...

You asked and she stated how it made her feel...

Give it time...

I have been going to these appts. for 21 years and not once have I been comfortable enough to have anyone accompany me, hell I don't want to accompany me half the time lol...

The disease in my opinion is very personnal and not all of it is easily shared...

There are thoughts/actions/feelings going on that are humiliating and she may not be ready for you to see that side of her. wink

(((Hugs)))
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/06/09 02:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Serenity13
Tristan ~

Just making my rounds and checking in to see you...

Seems you are doing wonderfully though I never doubted it. smile

On a previous page, you mentioned your IC wanted you to maybe go to psych appt. with wife?

Being bipolar, here is my 2 cents - Don't force that...

You asked and she stated how it made her feel...

Give it time...

I have been going to these appts. for 21 years and not once have I been comfortable enough to have anyone accompany me, hell I don't want to accompany me half the time lol...

The disease in my opinion is very personnal and not all of it is easily shared...

There are thoughts/actions/feelings going on that are humiliating and she may not be ready for you to see that side of her. wink

(((Hugs)))


Thanks Serenity. I will not push it. She cancelled her last appointment her psych. Should I ask her to reschedule? She has not seen him since going off the meds. But, I do think she is doing as well now as she ever did on the meds. She believes that she is doing better now off than she ever did on. She describes it as "more grounded".

There is an unofficial (not in DSM IV) diagnosis of bipolar III. This is essentially bipolar where the mania or hypomania is induced by anti-depressants. I am beginning to wonder if this is not what my W is dealing with. I guess only time will tell.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/06/09 03:15 PM
We never really talked about the money spent. We did discuss the price of DB tuition. There is a difference between cost and value. I believe we both saw the experience as valuable, as painful as it was. You can make more money. You can't replace your history, experiences, love, family, dreams, inside jokes, the knowing looks, and the intimacy of knowing someone else on this earth understands how much you matter.

Cheers
Posted By: K4D Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/06/09 08:56 PM
Are yall still looking to move to Texas? If so, where in Texas?

K4D
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/06/09 09:05 PM
Yes. We are still thinking about Texas. However, we wouldn't move till school is out for D6. If we move, it will be to the home of the Longhorns. I hear Austin is a wonderful place to live. Plus, it is more similiar to the tropical climate my W is accustomed than the one we have now. We had a "chance" of snow last night frown My wife has a tough time with the winters up here and I hope the move would help a little with her seasonal depression.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/09/09 07:19 PM
Journaling:
It's my birthday and feeling good. The landlord accepted our proposal, we are out of the lease. We have been having great weather the past few days. W took me out on Saturday for my birthday and we took the family to the zoo yesterday. W and I were up till 1AM last night just relaxing together. She sent me a wonderful birthday wish via e-mail this morning. I feel very fortunate.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/09/09 07:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
We never really talked about the money spent. We did discuss the price of DB tuition. There is a difference between cost and value. I believe we both saw the experience as valuable, as painful as it was. You can make more money. You can't replace your history, experiences, love, family, dreams, inside jokes, the knowing looks, and the intimacy of knowing someone else on this earth understands how much you matter.

Cheers


Thank you Coach. I sent this verbatim to W. She greatly appreciated it.
Tristan, happy birthday!

I have traveled to Austin a bunch for work and it is a pretty cool town. Nice downtown scene that is young and vibrant. And, it sure beats Cold and Snowy!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, TRISTAN OL' BOY!! grin

As my mom would say, "Be good to yourself."

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/09/09 10:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, TRISTAN OL' BOY!! grin

As my mom would say, "Be good to yourself."

Puppy


I am 259 in Puppy years laugh
HBD, Tristan.

Austin is a great place to live. wink
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, TRISTAN OL' BOY!! grin

As my mom would say, "Be good to yourself."

Puppy


I am 259 in Puppy years laugh


Oh what the hell, go ahead and lick yourself tonite . . . you deserve it. laugh

Puppy
Posted By: Gardener Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/10/09 04:07 AM
Happy birthday, Tristan
And by the way, Puppy
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: tristan
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, TRISTAN OL' BOY!! grin

As my mom would say, "Be good to yourself."

Puppy


I am 259 in Puppy years laugh


Oh what the hell, go ahead and lick yourself tonite . . . you deserve it. laugh

Puppy
You are just too friggin' funny sometimes! laugh
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/11/09 03:37 PM
I figured I would share the card my W gave me for my birthday. We have made such a turn around.

For my husband
when I think back
to our early days,
I think of the way
our lives were then,
the way they are now,
and all the things
that have happened
since we first started out
I think of the laughter
and the conversations
we've shared.
I think of family stuff,
tough times,
and everyday frustrations
we've somehow gotten through,
and of the good news,
happy moments,
and milestone days
we've celebrated
along the way.
And even though
it's hard for me to believe
how far we've come...
It's even harder
for me to put into words
just how much it's meant
to have you by my side
through it all.

Mi Amor,
Gracias por tu amor y por brindarme tanta alegria -
Te amo con toda mi alma.
W


---

I thank you all for being with me through the very tough times.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/11/09 03:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails


Oh what the hell, go ahead and lick yourself tonite . . . you deserve it. laugh

Puppy


I tried, but this ol' dog ain't that flexible anymore laugh
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/16/09 04:14 PM
Journaling:
It now seems that W and I are settling into a "normal" routine. We spent yesterday going to church, getting caught up on financials, doing some house-cleaning, laundry, and finished last night with a great dinner prepared by W (grilled salmon, cous-cous, butternut squash, candied walnuts on brie). W has started asking all of us to start saying prayers before each meal. This is something that we did not do before, but I like it.

Our last MC session was also productive. We spent much of it on how I handled a situation with D3. D3 had been getting up every couple of hours crying for "mommy". After the second time, my W was furious. She did nothing, but let me know how she felt and it took her sometime to get back to sleep. So when it happened for the 3rd time at about 5:30 AM, I went in and told her "Mommy is sleeping and that her crying was waking D6 up (who sleeps in the same room.) I told her that she needed to stop crying or I would take her downstairs to sleep. She didn't stop crying and I did take her, a pillow, and a blanket down to the playroom and put her on the sofa where she continued to cry for "Mommy". I stayed with her for about 10 minutes telling her that she could go back upstairs when she stopped crying. This never happened, so I finally left her there and went back upstairs. W never woke up this third time. When she woke up the next morning and found what I had done, she was very upset. Saying that we "abandoned" her in the basement and it was akin to locking her in a closet. This made me feel pretty bad. But MC made a point to tell W that it was not an abusive and probably sent the correct message to D3. But he also made a point to tell us that we needed to work better together in planning "corrective actions" together.

Things continue to move in a good direction.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/23/09 04:57 PM
Journaling:

My W started this weekend with some difficulty. She was struggling with a bout of depression. She had difficulty enjoying much of anything. She also had difficulty getting out of bed, but forced herself to do it. It prompted this discussion on Friday before falling asleep:

M: How are you doing?
W: OK, I guess. It's just hard. It's hard to enjoy anything; sometimes I am just tired. Tired with life.
...
W: What's wrong.
M: I know it's wrong for me to think this way; but I can't help but think I should be able to do something. It's hard for me to see you like this.
W: It's not your fault. It's just my mind is messed up. It will get better, it always does. You are a wonderful husband.

She still doesn't want the meds. She wants to battle this herself. She forced herself to go on a hike with us yesterday afternoon and by last night she seemed to be back to her normal self. I think we both understand these bouts with depression better now.
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/23/09 05:21 PM
sounds like you're doing ok but one thing I wanted to ask is getting back into the pace of normal everyday life is a good routine but part of what lured her away was something really exciting & unknown - when is the last time you did something really exciting & unknown with her.

Something totally not you, a total 180 for you.

What would that be?
Spitball it here if you have to, make this marriage something new by re-inventing something.

- maybe a his & hers day at the spa, you know massages and all those special treatments
- maybe signing up for some ballroom or salsa dancing, something you both haven't done before
- have the grandparents take the kids for the weekend and tell your wife to pack a bag for the weekend: go to a hotel, include taking her shopping for a new outfit and some shoes, include a makeover, reservations at a nice restaurant, pack some candles & some massage oil, make the night something special & hot

Plan the whole thing, make it something you want to do, not just something you're doing for her, something you think would be hot & spicy

Something that is a diversion from the everyday doldrums, something that associates you and her memory of you with something exciting & new
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/25/09 08:52 PM
Thank you Robx. We are planning a trip to PR in January and a move to TX sometime next summer. The weekend away would be nice. I will see what I can do.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/25/09 08:53 PM
Wanted to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving. I know I will be giving thanks for this website over the weekend. It has done so much for me over this past year. Thank you all.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 11/30/09 09:24 PM
Journaling:

The Thanksgiving weekend was very nice. I will admit I had and still have some concern over how we will handle the Holidays. The Holidays has been difficult on my W in the past; she is away from her family and the weather up north is a constant reminder that she is nowhere near the tropical climate of her childhood.

[Wednesday]
W picked up girls early from daycare and they cooked a traditional Thanksgiving dinner that was ready when I arrived from work. We had a very nice dinner. And after putting girls to bed, the W and I watched "A Roman Holiday". It is one of my favorite classics that my W had not seen yet.

[Thursday]
Started off rocky. I do not remember what triggered it, but W had a small bout with depression in the morning. We were finishing some chores before heading to my parents for the weekend and my W just headed up to the room and layed down. She slept for about an hour while D6 and I racked leaves. D3 stayed inside to watch TV. She was much better when she woke up.

We drove to my parents in the afternoon and all enjoyed a traditional Thanksgiving dinner at their place. My parents and W both acted as if nothing had ever happened between us.

[Friday]
Girls, W and I drove a couple of hours to see my grandfather who has recently moved to a nursing home. It felt good to give him some company over the weekend.

That night W and I left girls with parents and went out for dinner and a movie. We saw "The Blind Side"; which I would recomend.

[Saturday]
Was spent relaxing at my parents place. We put together a gingerbread train, took the girls to the Santa parade and horseback riding (one of the girl favorite things to do when at grandpas).

[Sunday]
Sunday started off rocky. We were rushed getting ready for church, which is always a stressor for my W. However, what really "freaked" (my W's word) my W out was when the pastor that married us walked into the sanctuary. This was unexpected as he is no longer the church's pastor. He is one of the few that I consulted with during the separation and knows "everything". She said that at that point she started thinking of killing herself and that angered her. After church, in her hurry to leave, she got angry at D6; and that only frustrated her more. When we go back to my parents place; she went into the our room and locked the door. About an hour later, she came back out and it was as if nothing happened.

The girls were especially trying on the drive back home. The 2 were tired and tantrumy for the entire 4 hour trip. I was driving and W was the one that was attempting to keep them calm (an impossible task). Finally, about 2 1/2 hours into the trip, W screamed "Ya! Yaaaaa!" (for thoe of you that are not fluent in Spanish it can be loosley translated into "Enough already") This not only startled the girls, it also made me jump. This caused D3 to start crying "Mommy, you scared me". My W went quiet and her eyes teared up. Not knowing exactly what to say or do, I just drove for probably 5 minutes in silence. D3's cries went from a cry to a wimper during that time. Finally, trying to help I said "You are only human. I think you are too hard on yourself." She did not say anything.

After about another 5 minutes, she spoke:
W: "I just lost it. She (D3) knows how to push every button I have."
M: "I would have been close to losing it too, if I hadn't already. You have the more difficult job of the two of us. You are welcome to drive if you would rather."
W: "I can't drive in this weather. I can't see."
M: "I really appreciate you handling them the way you are."
...

The drive improved some from there, but after another 45 minutes I made an attempt to get the girls to sleep some:
M: "Hey girls. It's bedtime, would you like to say your prayers and take a nap?"
D3: "I will say the prayer."

Now I was expecting her to say the normal nighttime prayer that we always say together, but she surprised both W and I by making up her own:

D3:
"Dear God,
Thank you for our trip to grandpa's
Thank you for horseback riding
Thank you for us watching TV
Thank you for grandma
Thank you for going to church
Thank you for Jesus
And thank you for going back home
Amen
Thank you God"

It was our tantrumy 3 yr old that reminded us what the weekend was about. The rest of the evening was enjoyable for all.

Hope everyone had an enjoyable Thanksgiving.
smile smile smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 12/10/09 06:17 PM
[Journaling]
Things have been going pretty well between us these past couple of weeks. We are both busy at work, but we have also got the house in the best shape it has been in a couple of years. We are working in synch with common goals, it is nice.

We have spent our MC sessions discussing how to best handle our challenging 3 yr old.

I think I will stop and get some flowers on my way home tonight. She has had a disappointing day at work.

Hoping everyone here is finding ways to enjoy this season.
You too, Tristan ol' boy!

I'm glad things are going well for you. Merry Christmas!

Puppy
Nice to hear from you Tristan.

I am glad to see that things are still going well. You're an inspiration.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 01/05/10 08:30 PM
Wow. It's been nearly a month since I have posted anything here. The holidays flew by. I am sorry for not coming back here more often and will be trying to catch up with you all over the next few days.

My W asked me about you all last night after we watched "An Emotional Life" last night. It is a very good mini-series on PBS if anyone is interested. Anyway, it led to a little bit of a relationship talk and me confessing that I am not healing from our ordeal as quickly as I had hoped. I assurred her that I was fine, but it was difficult for me to get back to where we were before. She said that she understood and that she was sorry.

The holidays were very enjoyable and we are continuing to move forward. Now that we are through them, we are making plans for a trip to PR and a move to Texas. AI continue to pray for all of you and wishing you the best. I will try to get up here more now that the holidays are over.

God bless.
-T
God bless you too, Tristan! I've been wondering how you've been doing.

It's going to be a long road. I think maybe you (and me too) might benefit from posting over in the Piecing forum, y'know?

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 01/05/10 09:22 PM
Yes, I know. I often wonder how you are dealing with your ordeal and if it is similiar to mine. Last night, I confessed her that I have been holding some things back because I am afraid to bring up anything negative that may drive a wedge between us. I know it isn't right, but I also don't think there is too much harm in digesting all that has happened. I think we can let it come out slowly in the MC sessions where a third party can help guide us through some of the sensitive areas. Please let me know if you start a piecing thread; it will be a daily read for me.

Take care.
I just brought up in our most recent MC session (on New Year's Eve day), that I want to start to get into some of the things surrounding my wife's affair two years ago. My wife cringed, but said she understood, and agreed, and the MC said she would help us.

It's not "dwelling" so much as it is wanting to have some greater level of understanding and insight, as I don't EVER want our marriage to get to such a painful place again!

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 01/05/10 09:40 PM
Exactly. My question to her last night was "How do we know this won't happen again?" Her answer was "We know more now". Which is true, but do we know enough?

One thing with which I am struggling is do I need to know more about the affair? Questions on details of how? when? what? why? Part of me thinks I should be able to just let these things go. A bigger part tells me that I don't even want to know. But will they be questions that continue to haunt me or will they fade? I don't know. I guess only time will tell.
I don't know either. I do know that those are some of the kinds of things that people deal with over in Piecing, which is why I think I'm going to start a thread there.

My wife has always been the type to say "I don't want to dwell on the past, or over-think this. Let's just move on," but I'm of the "Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it," kwim?

Puppy
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 01/05/10 09:53 PM
Happy New Yr T!

I think awareness, understanding and being able to talk about things that would have been issues in the past is key. One thing that has served us well is "If it is bothering you then it is your responsibility to bring it up." Helps to have a partner that will empathetically listen, validate and support solutions. So communcating in healthy ways is productive and bonding. Makes you love in different ways. I know you guys can handle it.

Cheers
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 01/05/10 10:06 PM
Thank you Puppy. Coach.

I believe that we are on the right path. And you two along with many others have helped put us there. Your advice is always appreciated.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 01/12/10 03:07 AM
Journaling:

Things continue to roll on. I have occassions where I find myself anxious about the future, but there is no reason for me to be worried. My W has been great since we have been back together. I think it is just repercussions of what happened this past year.

We started exploring what happened over this past year in our last MC session. The C spent a lot of time asking me what it took for me to forgive. I said that it started with understanding what happened and how; then I accepted that none of us are perfect and we both made mistakes that led to the problems. Finally, I just needed to let it go.

The C then stated that that part of forgiveness had to include appreciation for the other. We need to appreciate all that the other brings to the relationship in order to forgive. He then asked my W if she could forgive herself? She said she wasn't sure.

This last session was very uncomfortable for both of us. But I am going to let the C lead us here. This is one place where I think I just need to trust the professional and the process.

Saving our M is exhausting; physically, mentally, & emotionally. But I would not trade this for anything; the reward is well worth it.
Hi tristan,

After reading some good advice from you on my thread, I read yours and noticed you found your wife was bipolar.

I met a friend who developed bipolar disorder when I was in university through a youth program - he was 17 at the time. Later, I moved and as did he, both of us eventually coming back to the same city. Having gone through a few cycles with him, I noticed a few things that I thought might be helpful to you as you live with your W:

1. When manic, they are going to do things that they will later regret. It can send them into 'personality shock' as all the behaviour limits in thought and action are lifted and they do and think things that can't be just erased. Mutual
forgiveness and 'repentance' are needed (in other words, bad choices when manic don't make bad ones when normal OK).

2. Meds are a must if others around want a normal life - maybe a lower dose. By the time your W is manic/depressed, it might be too late to convince them to voluntarily take the meds, but it also takes longer to come back to normal. Almost every time he was manic, he was off meds.

3. Don't leave things hidden. He didn't want to talk about his condition with his W and they had a lot of problems because of it. His W and her family didn't know enough to understand how to get him talking. You mentioned that your W wasn't spilling everything to her psych., which only leaves more for her during a depression cycle.

I really hope your W's condition is better than my friend's was. You want to know more about her affair and personally, I think this is your right. I also think that the more that she doesn't disclose might leave her with more baggage than she can always handle - and you.

When I was reading some of your posts, I began feeling that you felt that some of your M problems had to do with your choices earlier in your M. Then, I reimagined the situation with the Bipolar D. which may have been present but undiagnosed, and then I thought that depressive and manic episodes exaggerate emotions, which could lead to the EA and PA.

Going through this with your MC is good, but maybe having her answer just one question at a time is enough.

If I've misread/misunderstood - sorry! If not, I hope this post helps...
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 01/28/10 10:44 PM
Journaling:

It has been a while since I have checked in. This past week has been the most comfortable/natural I have spent with my W in over a year. We had a good session with the MC this morning after a rough one a week before. The MC really pushed us to talk about the OM and seperation last week; it took its toll on both of us. But I have been able to relax more since that session, so I really think it did me some good.

Hope all is going well for everyone out there. I wish I could get on here more, but my life has been extremely busy lately.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/18/10 09:22 PM
I know it has been a long tim I have been here. But I was thinking of you all and just wnated to say hi and give you a little update.

Things are still going well between W and I and continue to improve each week. We just returned from a wonderful trip to Puerto Rico where we stayed with her family. We have finished remodeling the kitchen in preperation to sell the house and plan on moving to Texas sometime in the summer. As time goes by, the difficult times we had seem to be fading from my mind.

From time to time, she still has bouts with depression but is working hard to deal with the episodes off meds (personally, as I look back, I think the meds did more harm than good). I still tend to get a little anxious when these episodes occur; but my anxiety is subsiding with each reoccurrence.

We continue to go to MC every other week which helps. I feel bad that I have been neglecting this site; it has given me my life back. And I continue to think that eventually I will get a chance to come back and give you all the attention you deserve. I hope all is well with you all and will try to catch up with each of you individually. I think of you often.

Take care,
- T
Good to hear from you, Tristan! I've been wondering what's been going on with you. Glad things are going well -- you deserve it!

Are you guys doing the Retrou follow-ups?

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/18/10 09:42 PM
Thank you Puppy.

We never went to Retrou. I thought about bringing it up, but never did. All we have been doing is working with the MC.

How have you been? How are things with your W. I hope things are moving well for the 2 of you as well.

-T
We're doing good -- we're GRANDPARENTS now! Ha!

D21 had a baby a month ago tomorrow. I'm really enjoying the "grandpa" thing!

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/18/10 09:56 PM
That's great! Congratulations.
Posted By: pigskin Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/20/10 04:18 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Thank you Puppy.

We never went to Retrou. I thought about bringing it up, but never did. All we have been doing is working with the MC.

How have you been? How are things with your W. I hope things are moving well for the 2 of you as well.

-T


Thanks for the update, tristan, and I wish you continued success in getting things back together.

I think Retro would be ideal for you, especially if you both are committed to working together to restore your marriage. It might even save you quite a bit of money on MC. I highly recommend it.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/22/10 10:50 AM
Thank you pigskin. I just requested info. When reading the website, it looks like it is for couples thinking of divorce or in crisis. Although, we have been there; we no longer are. Do you think it would still be beneficial for us?

Thanks again,
-Eric
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/23/10 07:11 PM
So my W and I have been piecing for a while now. I have started a new thread over in piecing. It is not without difficult discussions. I wanted to share this quote here:

W: "I know you are curious. But when will we be done? I feel like I am being grilled. I cheated and I lied. What else do you want? That is the nature of things; cheaters lie. That is what they do. I am sorry."

Puppy. You, as always, were and are correct. It felt good to hear my W say those words, she is doing her part in this process and it helps. But, I had to chuckle to myself as it was almost verbatim to what you say.
Posted By: pigskin Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/24/10 12:52 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Thank you pigskin. I just requested info. When reading the website, it looks like it is for couples thinking of divorce or in crisis. Although, we have been there; we no longer are. Do you think it would still be beneficial for us?

Thanks again,
-Eric


Yep. Absolutely. The lessons you learn there and the tools you are given for dealing with emotions and conflict will last a lifetime. And can even help you with relationships other than just your marital one.

It would definitely help with "piecing".
From the weekend I went to, at RV, no one is ever told about anyone's situation. Most of the presenters were either post crisis ready to divorce, just ready to divorce, or just starting to peice things together but having problems.

For me, it helped me develop love for my wife. I wouldn't say she was helped that much, but I've heard/read of others that had great moments for both. I think your best benefit should you go is that they focus in on the idea of rebuilding the marriage, not repairing it. After an EA or other issue, you may benefit to re-examine things from that light.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/29/10 09:07 PM
Thank you OTMT. I asked W about whether she would like to attend. Her response was "I will do whatever you think we need to get back to normal."

Little update:
We are going full throttle in getting our house sold to clear the way for a move to TX. We hope to have it sold by the end of April. We are in a pretty tough market right now so I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Anyway, we are keeping ourselves extremely busy. "Decluttering the basement" is our task for this eveing - to be followed by a nice dinner out (the girls are at the grandparents for the week).
You've done the hardest part, Tristan. You opened up yourself to the point your wife is ready to trust you.

RV's main advantage, I think, is that it helps both spouses truly empathize/understand the other. There's a bit of religious dogma, but it isn't overwhelming (I'm not Christian, so if we are OK with it I'm sure others could, too). See http://www.retrouvaille.org for the times in your state.

I didn't just get back to normal. I got better than normal. We still have some major obsticles, like you have with the EA, but connecting with my W in the way RV teaches has made possibilities where there were none or a few.

There was a thread by TBL where he and I were going through some pre-retrou thoughts. It may help. http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1968135&page=1

I really want to stress, I am not out of the woods. Today, we went to a divorce mediation meeting that became marriage counseling! Retrou will not solve past problems, but it gives a set of tools and so much more that can lead to it.
Oh - if you get any basement or house selling ideas I'd love to have them! W and I agreed today to sell our house - too many memories of fighting!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/30/10 03:00 PM
OMTB,

I don't know about where you are, but the market here stinks! We have had our home for over a decade and I think we can get more for it than we bought it for, but I am not even sure of that.

As for the W and me, it has been a tough couple of days. We were talking yesterday about maybe going out for lunch today.

W: "I know, I can take you to the SC!"

I knew this was a place that she went with OM often when they were together, so I had this negative reaction. It must have shown on my face.

W: "What?"
M: <silence: I was trying to collect my thoughts>
W: "What? Just tell me."
M: <shaking head> "Don't you have memories? I can't help but think 'What conversations did the two of you have here'."
W: <obviously upset> "Do we need to talk about this? It seems that we are talking about it every other day."
M: "Don't you understand how those thoughts could come into my mind?"
W: "I don't know. Do we have to talk about this."
<conversation came to a halt>

<later that night>
W: "Do you ever think of retaliating against me?"
M: "I sometimes wish you could fell how I do. But so you could understand me; not to retaliate. What do you mean?"
W: "You're not going to leave me are you? Leave me stranded all alone in Texas?"
M: "Of course not. I am not going to leave you."
M: <pause, then smile and laugh to myself>
W: "What?"
M: "Funny. You worried about me leaving you."

...

Finally, we talked this morning and she really needs to send an e-mail to OM for work puposes. It is kind of crucial, 100K is riding on the line. So we discussed it.

M: "I am very conflicted here. On one hand, I want you to succeed and understand the need to do this; but on the other, I want you to stay as distanced from him as possible."
W: "I understand."
M: "What I would ask is that you forward his response to me."

<This request made her extremely upset, I could tell it in her face>

M: "Do you think I am being unreasonable?"
W: <silence, shaking head>
W: "No, its just that this is hard."
M: "What is hard? ...You miss him?"
W: "No. Not at all. It's this dynamic. It's us. It's just hard. It reminds me of just how bad I screwed up."
...

She quickly got ready and got out of the house this morning after that without saying much. I feel anxious now. Hopefully, it will get better as the day goes on.

Hope all is well for you out there.
-T
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/30/10 03:15 PM
tristan I would suggest that you table those talks that concern your feellings, it's easy to get into that trap but based on everything I've read, women just don't dig it.

You sound a little insecure when you give her those responses,
as for her suggesting going to that place that she used to go with the OM too, I would just tell her "I think you can take me somewhere better than that dump, I know I'm worth it ;-)", you know tongue in cheek, smiling, having fun, etc.

It's easy to get drawn into those conversations and try to get her to feel what you feel but she can't, who can really feel what we ourselves feel, no one, just us. We would like them to feel our pain, our anxiety, our embarrassment so that they can take away some of that and smarten up so that they know not to go there and do that again but truth be told you can't.

As for the work thing, I would be conflicted as well.
Why does she have to work with him?
Can't she get someone else to handle the OM and his account with her company? Surely it doesn't have to be her. If you've read puppy's comments, you know what he says about renewed contact with the OM, it resets that clock and attraction again or at least it has the potential to and she needs to quit him cold turkey.

Take into account when she feels "it is hard and how much she screwed up" she associates bad & negative feelings with you and the relationship she has with you, sending an email to that dickwad OM regardless of what she says, those feelings & thoughts of fun times she had with him will creep into her head, how could it not, those memories can't be erased.
Tristan,

From what I learned in RV, fogiveness has to be complete. This is hard to do, and the weekend may help you both get there.

The restaurant incident tells her that she may have to live in that shadow of guilt for her whole life. Would you want to if the roles had been reversed? Yes, you wouldn't do the affair. But it did happen. For now, at least until RV if you are going through with it (I think you should), then call a truce.

She saw it on your face. Avoiding wouldn't solve things, but you can say that the restaurant gives you gas. Is she going to try to remember smelling...?!! I hope not!

You will get a chance to talk through those feelings. They'll intro you to a process at RV to deal with emotions safely.

The incident about her fears sounded very real. DB reminds us not to hit on issues that can be avoided and will cause pain. She seems to have come to you with a genuine fear about whether you really want her. You might want to consider going to her today and apologizing for not being clear that you would not leave her alone. You are in this with your love and hat in hand. There's nothing wrong (I think) with acknowledging issues that will need time to deal with. The specifics and jabs can be left behind.

"How bad I screwed up"...her job with the OM, and her slowly rekindling love for you. They're all delicate areas, aren't they? Don't step on things to provoke her fear of being abandoned. In a book I read, "Improve your marriage without talking about it", there was a good chunk that opened my eyes to why anything that made my wife feel like left over stew caused reactions and a bad dynamic.

Can you text her and thank her for giving your M a fighting chance?

Remember, she chose to come back to you on hope and your promise for eventual forgiveness.

Please consider RV or a similar program. I really think you'd benefit even more than I did.
YES, he needs to be empathetic to her feelings (about HER "god, I really screwed up" triggers), and YES, he needs to not sound so NEEDY in how he handles these exchanges (I like Rob's humorous suggestion).

But work contact with OM is a problem. I'd try to concentrate your efforts on THAT PART of the equation, and try to give grace as much as possible in the other areas.

As betrayed spouses, we always want the formerly-wayward spouse to "feel our pain," but in almost every case, it's just not productive.

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/30/10 04:17 PM
Puppy,

Did you ever feel the need to know when and how the affair started, etc. Did your W ever tell you. Did the desire to have your questions answered ever dissipate?

Thanks for the advice guys. Feeling better already.
Yes, I did. I tried to limit the questions, and only asked them very early on in our reconciliation. It wasn't a complicated story -- my wife and I had grown distant, stopped ML (I stopped initiating, after years of a SSM), and stopped complimenting her (her primary LL is WOAs). OM made her feel like she "mattered."

We will occasionally talk about OM, or those times, but only IN CONTEXT to something going on with us -- I don't just bring it up out of the blue.

I do wish, however, that we had talked about it MORE -- with an MC -- as we reconciled. I do still feel like there are some unresolved issues there.

Puppy
Tristan,

If you end off going to RV, you'll hear some stories of people who've been through different and similar things (PAs, "regular" separations, etc.). They'll give you a feel for how to approach your W over time to get all the info you need.

Maybe not all that you want right away, but I'd guess that as Puppy said, it comes up for him from time to time in a context, but not as a jab or reminder. Forgiveness is powerful~
I am so glad you guys stay on the board. Tristan, if divorce busting after an affair is the goal, your sitch is about as close to optimal as one could want, yet you are showing all of us how truly difficult reconciliation after an affair is, even in the best case. If I were in your shoes I would be feeling just like you, and would have exactly the same difficulties.

I agree with robx, as long as you're convinced your W sincerely wants your M to work now, humor and lightness are the keys to success. Your W knows what she did, she hasn't forgotten about it. Her seeing it in your face just makes her feel guilty, and doesn't help your M.

Maybe the compromise could be to have some scheduled time for you to express your feelings, and she will hear them without reaction, in exchange for your agreement to not bring them up at other times. Of course you'd have to be prepared for an "ambush", like the restaurant thing, and be strong enough to push it away. No matter what, you will have bad moments, so try not to dwell on them, just keep moving forward.

Don't know if Puppy agrees, but it seems there is a moment when the reconciling WAW really flips the switch back to committment and attraction to their H, and at that point, exposure to OM doesn't "reset the clock" anymore. At that point, I don't think exposure to the OM is dangerous not because of risk of "resetting the clock" but rather just dragging up the emotional garbage again and again, emotional reaction by the betrayed H, etc.
In retrou, one of the keys is that each day you're asked to spend 20 minutes on a written activity you share. It has really helped me understand my W better, which makes us connect better in speech (and bed!)

Again, we aren't out of the woods - we began pretty rough. You wouldn't be either. But Future's point is right on - spending time is important. You might not want to overdue it yet.

It's clear from your success - bringing her back and wanting to work with you, that you can and will have a happy M. Keep that in mind...
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/30/10 08:24 PM
Thank you all,

I don't want to give the wrong impression. My W and I are doing very well. And the friction is well worth the good times we are having of which I don't write about. One thing I have learned about the reconciliation process is that it is definitely not a one side fits all.

I read all of your responses before heading to meet her for lunch. I was ready to put it all behind me and go out for a light enjoyable time. I pick her up at her office and what do I see mixed in with all her pictures of our girls... a framed picture of OM's D3?! I was livid inside, but I thought to myself 'keep your cool'.

It didn't work - she saw it all over my face.
W: "What's the matter?"
M: <silent, thinking is there anything productive to say?>
W: "C'mon, tell me."
M: "That picture upsets me."
W: "It's cute. And she had nothing to do with it. I don't understand your reaction."
M: "It's the meaning I am sure he put to it when he gave it to you. He gave it to you after we were seperated, didn't he?"
W: "Yes."
M: "In his mind, this was some way of trying to put together some sort of fantastical family."

W puts the picture in a drawer.

W: "OK. She's gone."

<silence>

W: "Talk to me."

I really had nothing productive to say, so I sat silent for a while.

M: "Let's go." - I stand up.

W sits there silent.

M: "I understand if you don't feel like coming."
W: "No. Let's go."

...

The lunch started off very strained but we were able to get to joking and laughing by the end. So I am glad we got together. But it isn't easy to not talk about this stuff when my W can read me like a book. I don't know if I had a right to be upset at the picture or not, but I did. Something had to be said.
I agree. To be honest with you, I'm a little stunned that she thought it was okay.

Puppy
Wow, amazing. She needs to realize that ANYTHING that reminds you of OM is toxic. ANYTHING!

This does support my perception in my own sitch, as well as others here, that the WAW really has no clue how the LBH feels. No clue.
To the extent that there's an inordinately large number of narcissists and outright NPDs among the ranks of the cheating, I think this is true.

They lack normal capacities for basic empathy.

Puppy
Good thing my W is a MC!!! LOL! No empathy needed there!
Originally Posted By: tristan
I don't know if I had a right to be upset at the picture or not, but I did. Something had to be said.


Your feelings can't be wrong. Try to validate hers though. She has a point, the girl was innocent and probably did not have a clue what her dad was doing to you.

It's good to tell her what you want - try to thank her for her consideration even when it is late. That tells her you'll both get by this and be happy in Texas together with a fresh start.
Tristan ~

Always good to see you back on the boards my friend...

I am sorry your W didn't take in account your feelings with regards to the pic.

IMHO ~ Regardless of if the child is innocent, the picture has zero place in your wifes' life.

((((((Hugs))))) smile
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/31/10 02:25 AM
it's that attitude that says "everything's ok, why does it bother you?", as in "I didn't do anything wrong, we were separated, it doesn't matter what I did", and to continue to flaunt it openly, as in "I don't care", is it possible she's totally oblivious to the effects that the OM has had on you, I guess anything is possible. To keep a pic of the OM's daughter, not only reminds her of his daughter, but reminds her of HIM, you can't make the association with one without making the association with the other.

Her continuing to work with the OM even on a limited basis, I wouldn't be comfortable with that either, they had an affair which they carried on secretly for a portion of time. She's had to rebuild your trust, she isn't oblivious to that but she needs to be cognizant of the fact that she can't repair what she did in several weeks to several months and then slip up here & there again, it's going to throw up red flags that are impossible not to pick up on.
T ~

I am going to go out on a limb here and put it in black and white... I agree with Robx...

I am sorry but "validating" only goes so far and quite frankly I am about sick of the way people here are encouraged to stick their head in the sand and "validate" our WAS feelings...

Save the marriage by making sure you kiss your spouses a$$ and making sure they are ok and their feelings are ok and do this and do that and don't do this, don't do that, say this...No you said it wrong say it this way instead because GOD forbid our spouses understand the absolute destruction their choices have caused anyone else....

GOD forbid we actually tell them what WE feel because that would make them run...

I sit here and watch the newbies come in and day by day the advice is so far off from what I was taught a year ago...

Unless it is the veterans posting advice...

Your spouse CHEATED on you...WTF do you want to sit back and act like it never happened to save your marriage? Why do you want to be turned into some spineless robot just to save something that apparently wasn't sacred enough to begin with?

This isn't just for Tristan - This is for all the people who want to believe there isn't a big fat elephant standing in your living room.

All of you are so much better then that...To think that some of you have been here for YEARS and not much has changed is so sad to me...To think you aren't worthy enough of a greater love from someone else because you are so stuck in your rut is even sadder...

There should be a set timeline for waiting around for your spouse to pull their head out of their a$$...

In my honest opinion.

(((Hugs)))

To you all and I say this out of respect and love. smile
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/31/10 02:57 AM
holy $hit, speaking of pro's, look out, here comes....

SERENITY!!!

You have some serious skills girlfriend!
C'mon, Serenity, tell us how you REALLY feel!!

Puppy
Posted By: v1olin Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/31/10 03:05 AM
Serenity now! lol
Friends ~

It has been building for quite some time now - Trust me...I finally think I am getting the hang of this DBing wink

Rob ~ Told you I wanted to be just like you...Slowly I am getting the hang of "you". smile

Puppy ~ You have helped me find my voice from day one... smile

V ~ I am sorry to say I don't know you however glad I provided some smiles for you smile

It took me over a year to realize that my form of DBing was to say KMA and see ya! wink

I am better then this and if my H doesn't want to stick around to meet the new me well so be it because I know He has better things in store for me. smile

(((Hugs)))
T~

I apologize for high-jacking your thread my friend. smile

((((Hugs))))
I would tell her to put it in the trash together and then put it out on the street. And then I would have a talk about any and everything from then. And toss it all. Spring cleansing. And if she does not understand I would explain it in detail.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/31/10 05:38 PM
No worries Serenity. It is nice to hear from you. And good to hear you are doing well.

By the way, my W did appologize when she got home last night. She said she thought about it and could understand why I was upset. She questioned me about what my 'triggers' were in order for her to avoid them in the future. Of course, these are very hard to define, but I tried.

It seems that reconciliation is a slightly different animal than DB'ing. DB'ing is all about working on one's self. There is no relationship to work on because the partner does not share the same goal of salvaging the relationship. So the only thing to do is to make ourselves the best self we can be.

However, if our partner does sincerely change their mind on their goal for the relationship, it seems that we must shift focus slightly. Working on ourselves is still of upmost importance. However, we must also focus on what is good for the marriage.

For me, it is a balancing act. Keeping myself strong, independent and not needing anything from my W. But at the same time opening up, enjoying her presence, and leaning on her for support (financial, emotional, and physical). If I don't do those things, then the M brings me nothing. And if it continues, wouldn't I end up resenting the relationship for always taking and not giving. We don't just want to save our marriage, we want to save one we can both enjoy.

So far, so good. Yes, it is touchy. But I think our ability to recover from lapses is just as important (if not more) as avoiding the lapses all together.

On another note: we should complete cleaning out the final two closets tonight. House is being painted today. It should be on the market next week - keeping our fingers crossed.
Originally Posted By: tristan


It seems that reconciliation is a slightly different animal than DB'ing. DB'ing is all about working on one's self. There is no relationship to work on because the partner does not share the same goal of salvaging the relationship. So the only thing to do is to make ourselves the best self we can be.

However, if our partner does sincerely change their mind on their goal for the relationship, it seems that we must shift focus slightly. Working on ourselves is still of upmost importance. However, we must also focus on what is good for the marriage.


I think it was Bworl, over in Piecing, that has written some really good posts on this very subject. In fact, he contends that the things you have to do in Newcomers (esp. when there is Infidelity involved), and then in Piecing, are practically OPPOSITES, which is why it's so damned difficult to make the transition!

It's like standing down from battle mode!

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 03/31/10 06:27 PM
True Puppy.

And the funny thing is instincts would have us do it exactly backwards. I rarely felt like doing battle during my DB'ing, but have to resist the urge fairly often now.
Heh, I find it all the same since day one, matter of fact I said this yesterday:

Originally Posted By: dday101798
And here we are today, communicating with respect, and that key word - validation when a concern does in fact arise. My god, it gets hard at times to try and bear that in mind, and then all the sudden, it just pops and all that time we spent training ourselves to stop, listen, and validate. That I tell you is the single most biggest change you NEED to keep going.
Originally Posted By: tristan
She questioned me about what my 'triggers' were in order for her to avoid them in the future. Of course, these are very hard to define, but I tried.


That's great to hear - if she asked, she cares about trying to get peace between you so love can regrow deeply.

Retrou is one among many methods to take you past DB into M rebuilding. I hope you can find a method to descend back into each others' hearts.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/13/10 09:09 PM
Just keeping those up to speed. W and I are doing very well. As time passes I am able to relax more, which is good. There is a lot of reassuring on both sides (i.e. W asked this morning when she saw me browsing this site "We are good, aren't we?").

She did not contact OM last week when it seemed she may need to for work and I thanked her for it. She is skipping another meeting this week where he will be in attendence. So she is doing her best to keep NC.

We are still trying to sell the house. We have had quite a few showings (about 8 in the last week), but no offers.

Our MC suggested that we start seeing him less frequently (every 3 weeks). I will take that as a sign that he believes we are doing pretty well.

Hope all of you are doing well.
-T
Great to hear the positive update, Tristan! And good luck with your house!

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/13/10 09:17 PM
Thanks Puppy. By the way, I have been mentioning to W some of the things that you propose on this site. I think she is afraid of you. LOL

She also tells me that she would have divorced me on the spot had I tried to subpoena her IC files smile
Hey, a little fear never killed anyone (altho I'm really just a harmless, lovable puppy).

When did I say anything about subpoening my wife's IC files? You must have me confused with someone else; the fetching Mrs. Puppy never even went to IC, until this past year??

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/13/10 09:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy
When did I say anything about subpoening my wife's IC files?


That was a reference to Coach.
Oh. Well, better to be feared than to be walked upon, I always say! grin
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/21/10 04:19 PM
So W just sent a heartfelt saying that she was hitting a 'rough spot' (entering a depressive state). It felt good that within the e-mail she expressed how much she loved and appreciated me. However, these are always trying times for me as well (very anxiety provoking). In the past, she would have blamed this on our marriage. She does not do that anymore, but the anxiety still comes just the same. I want to fix it; but their is very little I can do other than just listen. Any advice on what spouses can do to make depression easier to deal with would be greatly appreciated. It is hard to see my W deal with this alone.

On another note, we are getting a lot of showings for the house (about 1 a day). No offer yet, but our realator seems pretty confident.
Posted By: pigskin Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/21/10 04:58 PM
I'd like to know how to make W depression easier to deal with as well.

All I do is try to keep telling myself that it is something out of her control, and to roll with it as well as I can. At the same time you can't let them treat you in an abusive manner; you have to call them out on it if it occurs, then walk away without engaging in arguments.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/21/10 05:26 PM
No. W does not get angry or argumentative when depressed. She is withdrawn, does not want to engage anyone, cries and sleeps a lot. It is hard to just watch her in that state. I try to let her sleep, take the girls out, etc. And eventually it gets better; but it is still hard to see her that way.
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/21/10 06:17 PM
Tristan, Have you read "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman?
He talks about "learned helplessness" and how to overcome it.

Cheers
Tristan,

Just a thought - have you asked her what makes her feel more in control and more able to think when she's depressed? She may not know it now, and may need an IC, but if you can identify her triggers with her help you'd probably feel more sure that you are helping.

GREAT to hear that she recognizes that the M isn't the reason~
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/21/10 11:13 PM
Thx Coach, OMTB:

I have seen you tout 'Learned Optimism' before. Had not read it though. Helpless is very much the feeling I get when she is like this. I will order the book tonight. Nice to see you stop by.

I am not sure anything triggers it. However, I can usually predict when it is coming. It's strange, the physical symptoms usually precede the emotional. For a couple of days she can be jovial, but have cold like symptoms without the cold. She will be tired with head and body aches. The sadness does not come untill a couple of days later. Truthfully, I think it is pretty much all brain chemistry for her.
Has she seen a doc for it?
Posted By: Greek Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/21/10 11:29 PM
Originally Posted By: tristan
Thanks Puppy. By the way, I have been mentioning to W some of the things that you propose on this site. I think she is afraid of you. LOL

She also tells me that she would have divorced me on the spot had I tried to subpoena her IC files smile


That was Coach who did that. And I do NOT recommend it. While it got my attention and yes, did scare me...had I truly needed the help of an IC to sort myself out at that time (or any time in the future until I DIE), I would not have gone. And can say absolutely, will never go again. Hope we never need it, is all I can say, b/c I wouldn't budge on that. It was an extreme invasion of privacy.

Greek
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/21/10 11:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Greek
Originally Posted By: tristan
Thanks Puppy. By the way, I have been mentioning to W some of the things that you propose on this site. I think she is afraid of you. LOL

She also tells me that she would have divorced me on the spot had I tried to subpoena her IC files smile


That was Coach who did that. And I do NOT recommend it. While it got my attention and yes, did scare me...had I truly needed the help of an IC to sort myself out at that time (or any time in the future until I DIE), I would not have gone. And can say absolutely, will never go again. Hope we never need it, is all I can say, b/c I wouldn't budge on that. It was an extreme invasion of privacy.

Greek


That is pretty much what Mrs. T said. I am sorry that it has scared you from seeing one anytime in the future. I found mine very helpful during our whole ordeal.

It is always good to see you and Coach on this board. You two are a great example of how beautiful M can be even after hard times.

Take care.
-T
I don't know what state you are in, but in Canada, privacy laws protect IC files and they can not be used in any court or ever be disclosed.

If this is true in your state, she might need to know that she'd be safe saying anything to an IC.

I'd wonder if her IC was any good. Maybe you can get some referrals for good ICs in your city.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/21/10 11:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Onthemountaintop
Has she seen a doc for it?


Yes she has OTMT. She was on meds for about a year and stopped taking them this past October. We have discussed whether the meds were helpful at all and I think we have both agreed that they were not. I tend to think that the ADs pushed her into a pseudo-manic state (see rapid cycling). She disagrees; but does not believe the ADs helped either.

In any case, she has been battling the bouts of depression without the help of meds since then.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/22/10 12:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Onthemountaintop
I don't know what state you are in, but in Canada, privacy laws protect IC files and they can not be used in any court or ever be disclosed.

If this is true in your state, she might need to know that she'd be safe saying anything to an IC.

I'd wonder if her IC was any good. Maybe you can get some referrals for good ICs in your city.


I don't think she is afraid of seeing an IC. I was refering to the belief that it was a huge invasion of privacy. That is where she agrees with Greek.

We are seeing a MC that we both like right now. That is enough for us.

And no, she does not believe her IC helped her much.
Is she dealing with bi-polar depression?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/22/10 08:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Onthemountaintop
Is she dealing with bi-polar depression?


That is debatable. She was diagnosed as 'in the spectrum'. However, her hypo-manic symptoms (rapid cycling, agitation, impulsivity) were slight and really only surfaced when she was on ADs.

-T
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/22/10 08:19 PM
We have accepted an offer on the house! If all goes as expected, we will be homeless on June 1. These will be interesting times.
Congrats! I'm sure the feeling of moving forward - in any direction, probably feels awesome!

Did you make any money on the sale?
Posted By: james217 Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/23/10 02:28 AM
congrats tristan. I have a few questions.

whenever your W is off the meds then she begans to get depressed and want to talk seperation right?

my WAW is not bipolar but she has epilepsy and her meds to prevent seizures can cause her to act bipolar.

She was recommended to take antidepressants.

before the meds did your waw just impulsively do things? no logic? panic attacks? paranoia? temper and emotions high and low and up and down?

i'm glad things are working out for you. congrats on the selling thehouse
Congrats on the house!!!!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 04/27/10 07:05 PM
Originally Posted By: james217
congrats tristan. I have a few questions.

whenever your W is off the meds then she begans to get depressed and want to talk seperation right?

my WAW is not bipolar but she has epilepsy and her meds to prevent seizures can cause her to act bipolar.

She was recommended to take antidepressants.

before the meds did your waw just impulsively do things? no logic? panic attacks? paranoia? temper and emotions high and low and up and down?

i'm glad things are working out for you. congrats on the selling thehouse


Hi James,

My W has always battled depression. She had one bad panic attack shortly after our second daughter was born. However, impulsivity, paranoia, agitation, and rapid cycling did not really occur until after she was on the anti-depressants. There is an unofficial diagnosis of Bipolar III that is defined by the patient only experiencing the manic symptoms after taking anti-depressants. My diagnosis would be that, but I am not a doctor by any means. She has been off the meds since October and still has bouts with depression, but she manages it. She is still a little impulsive at times, but that is one of the things I love about her smile
Originally Posted By: tristan
She has been off the meds since October and still has bouts with depression, but she manages it. She is still a little impulsive at times, but that is one of the things I love about her smile


Awesome attitude, Tristan~ No doubt one of the things your W loves about you - even if she doesn't say it or show it at times.

Are you planning to investigate this further as well as getting strategies to cope with her depression once in Texas?
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 05/07/10 07:58 PM
W brought up politics in our last session.

But before I talk about that I will go back to the discussion that brought this to the forefront. It was over the recent Arizona immigration law. She was passionately offended by the law. I don't remember if she asked for my opinion or I just gave it. I was much less passionate about it, but said that "it really depended on how the law was enforced". She imagined the Arizonan police stopping every Latino on the street and asking for ID; which I agreed would be wrong. However, I mentioned that I could see the law used in a reasonable manner as well. This "aggravated" her.

Anyway, she brought up the conversation with MC and how she wished we could agree "at least sometimes" on philosophical issues. She wishes we could "connect at that level". To me, this was not that big of a deal. But to her, she wants to "connect" at this level. Truthfully, I want to be able to connect at every level. I do understand where she is coming from and do respect her opinion. I just have a different perspective on it.

The disagreement doesn't bother me. However, her saying that we can not "connect" at that level does. MC said that she wasn't asking my opinion but was rather just wanting to be understood. I would like to be able to discuss politics with her, but not if it causes this much strife in our R.
Maybe she should actually read the law. It says that the police can only ask for ID if they've already stopped someone for another legitimate offense ("lawful contact") -- like running a red light, or speeding, etc. They can't just stop you for "reasonable suspicion."

That rather CRUCIAL piece has been left out of nearly every news story on the matter.

Then again, I think that's not really the point she's trying to make. wink

Puppy
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 05/07/10 08:12 PM
How men and woman communicate.

Statements are questions from women, she's looking for validation from you.
Quote:
She wishes we could "connect at that level".


"Can't we connect on that level?"

Quote:
MC said that she wasn't asking my opinion but was rather just wanting to be understood.


Bingo. So hard for us men to get this. This had nothing to do with your position in the discussion. She just wanted to be heard, listened to and understood by her man. No fixing, applying logic, or debating required just listen and soak her up.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 05/07/10 08:14 PM
Yeah, if I tried to bring that up it would only aggravate her more. I tend to enjoy the argument; her, not so much frown
Originally Posted By: tristan
Yeah, if I tried to bring that up it would only aggravate her more. I tend to enjoy the argument; her, not so much frown


You mean, it's NOT good to leave them wimpering in a fetal position underneath your kitchen table, crying "Uncle" while you taunt them with "Whoseyerdaddy! Whoseyerdaddy?!" confused smirk

Go figure.

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 05/07/10 08:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
How men and woman communicate.

Statements are questions from women, she's looking for validation from you.
Quote:
She wishes we could "connect at that level".


"Can't we connect on that level?"

Quote:
MC said that she wasn't asking my opinion but was rather just wanting to be understood.


Bingo. So hard for us men to get this. This had nothing to do with your position in the discussion. She just wanted to be heard, listened to and understood by her man. No fixing, applying logic, or debating required just listen and soak her up.


With 20/20 hindsight, I can see that now. But sometimes I don't catch on soon enough. However, she is getting better at saying "I am not looking for a reply, I just need to vent..." before continuing on. That is a real help to us dolts smile
tristan-

Are there ways you feel you do connect at the level she's talking about? The way she said it sounds like she feels you never connect in that way, leading to her feeling alone.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 05/07/10 08:39 PM
I do feel we connect. And she says we connect in many other ways, just not "that way". What does "connect in that way" mean? Sometimes I think she means that I agree with her 100% on such issues. However, if I listen to my MC and Coach, it simply means that I should hear her out without saying anything at all.

Since I can't simply agree with her 100% of the time without lying about who I am, I should probably try Coach's method and see how it goes.
Absolutely should not agree with her 100% of the time. Should be true to yourself. I think she wasn't talking about the immigration thing specifically, but she was using it to make a point about an unmet need she has. We have to take advantage of these "clues" when women give them to us!
Posted By: Coach Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 05/07/10 08:49 PM
Quote:
However, if I listen to my MC and Coach, it simply means that I should hear her out without saying anything at all.


No you need to validate her feelings. "I can see that you are very passionate about this." "Wow, you really are upset about this."


Here is a great way to offer help without fixing.

"How can I help you with that?"

"How can I support you in your effort?"

Make sure you are holding eye contact - this creates emotional connection. Make it sensual - sound of your voice, the look in your eyes, you touching her. Find a way to add smell and taste and your golden. cool

Make it a goal this weekend to emotionally connect with her. Great for both of you.

Cheers
Kett's Guidelines for less conflict in this area:

Not EVERY discussion of ideas (be they political, religious, scientific, whathaveyou) needs to be a knock-down-drag-out-take-no-prisoners debate. Not saying that's what you did. But you can answer that yourself. Y'all know how much I hate genderalizations, but I have observed that men *can* be more aggressive/overtly competitive when discussin', which can come across as unnecessarily adversarial, which can lead to that feeling of losing connection.

Whether you agree or disagree, sometimes the main thing is for the other to feel *heard*, respected. Which may take the form of restating their position thoughtfully and giving some form of "I can see your point" validation BEFORE jumping in with your counterpoint. From this woman's opinion, in conversations about ideas (not human relationships), I could give a rat's ass if my *feelings* are validated. But it goes a long way to converse in such a way that I feel like my thoughts and opinions are valued on a par with yours and you don't think I'm a complete idiot, whether you agree with me or not. You can disagree with someone without minimizing their concerns; it's a matter of tone, mostly. IMHO. Are you trying to exchange meaningful ideas, or are you trying to "win"?

I would say that in my marriage, I had to learn to do this as much as my husband. And we BOTH had to accept that being in disagreement on certain issues was not a referendum on our individual worth *or* the health of our relationship.

ETA: It's very helpful for her to let you know when she's just venting and doesn't want a debate. However, I would opine that if she's *never* interested in your opinion on these issues and just wants to use you as a sounding board, that is a relationship inequity that might be appropriately addressed in counseling.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 05/08/10 12:09 PM
Hi Kett,

My W says you nailed it. She says I play to win (but isn't that the way we are suppose to play Coach?). However, in this argument/conversation, I really did think I tried to keep it more a conversation than an argument. She says she "perceived" it differently. Something I need to work on.

I have been inviting her read things I write here. I enjoy being here and if not giving advice, at least encouraging people that are going through difficult times. Sometimes I think she is a little insecure about me being on here. Last night, she asked "Are people talking about me again?" I understand why she would feel that way, so I let her read what write and many of your responses. I think that is the best way to go. Hiding that I come here doesn't seem right nor does not coming here at all. So I think inviting her to be a part is the best way to go.

Coach, she likes you. She says your funny smile

Puppy, she says it's obvious you agree with the law and I don't think she gets your humor. However, keep it coming, I enjoyed it.
Originally Posted By: tristan


Puppy, she says it's obvious you agree with the law and I don't think she gets your humor. However, keep it coming, I enjoyed it.


I do. It's nothing more than enforcing what's already SUPPOSED to be the federal law.

Tell Mrs. T I say "hiya!"

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 05/13/10 06:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Tristan, Have you read "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman?
He talks about "learned helplessness" and how to overcome it.

Cheers


Hi Coach,

Wanted to thank you for this. I haven't made it too far through yet; but did make it through the "Learned Helplessness" chapter. So now I understand why I feel helpless when she is depressed. Now I am interested in finding out how the book suggests I overcome it. It has been difficult to find time to read with preparing for the move and all. But it is the book I reach for when I do find the time.

-T
(((((Tristan))))

Just coming by and showing some love...Always good to see you my friend smile smile

Prayers and hugs to you both!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 05/13/10 07:39 PM
Serenity,

I saw what you did over on James thread. You are doing God's work. This world is a better place because of you.

Prayers to you too,
-T
Posted By: robx Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 05/13/10 08:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Serenity13
(((((Tristan))))

Just coming by and showing some love...Always good to see you my friend smile smile

Prayers and hugs to you both!


If no one has told you lately,
you're a beautiful lady inside and out,
don't let anyone tell you different.
Originally Posted By: tristan
Serenity,

I saw what you did over on James thread. You are doing God's work. This world is a better place because of you.

Prayers to you too,
-T


T ~

Very humbling my friend...That sentence is very powerful and makes me proud of every decision I have made thus far...Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 05/25/10 12:59 AM
Figured I would catch people up on me. The move is moving along at seemingly blazing speed. W resigned this past Friday. It is the first that she has been without a job since she started college. Her an I are both curious to see how much she enjoys it. She plans to not enter back into the workforce until D6 starts 1st grade next fall.

We must be out of the house by Monday. This is stressing me out as there is a ton of things that need to be done before then. Today, I asked W "How she was doing?"

W: "Why does everybody keep asking me that? Are they afraid that I won't be able to handle myself?"
M: "No. It was just a question to help myself calm down."
W: "Why? Are you anxious?"
M: "Yes. A little."
W: "Why, what from?"
M: "Oh, I don't know. That's the thing about anxiety, you don't exactly know from where it is coming, right?"
W: "Well you should have some idea."
M: "I don't know. When I think of us, my job, the girls; it is all good. But when I think of where we were a year ago and think about this move to TX. I mean this is a huge commitment between us."
W: "Yes. So what are your fears?"
M: "I guess that one would be that you aren't doing this because you love me, but rather for the girls and the family."
W: "You don't think I love you?"
M: "You didn't ask me what I thought. You asked me what are my fears. I do think you love me. There is a difference."
W: "Have I done anything to make you feel that way."
M: "No, you have been great since we have been back together. It just takes time."
W: "Listen, I love you. When the girls are grown up, all we will have is each other. I know that. Are you doing all this for the girls?"
M: "No. I am doing it because I love you. I wouldn't be making this move if it was only for the girls. I am making this move because I think it will be best for us."
W: "I feel safe with you. You are like my security blanket. I only wish you felt safe with me. I know I pulled the blanket and rug out from under you and understand why you feel this way. But I hope you can feel safe with me sometime again."

At this point she is holding my hand.

M: "I am feeling good now."


-T
Wow. Fast forward from page number one on this thread to pg 13.

Great work from you and your wife, Tristan.

Thanks for showing us the positives of hard work, time, patience, and two well meaning people.
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 06/12/10 04:15 AM
We spent the day in the city that we will call home today. It will be very different from what I am used too. But it was a very pleasant day. I am really starting to look forward to this new life. And am so grateful to be sharing it with my W.
Tristan~

I am always thrilled to see you update and tonight is no exception.

May He bless and watch over you both as you move through this next phase of your lives, together.

(((((Hugs)))))

smile smile
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 06/12/10 04:35 AM
Serenity,
He has blessed us. My W says he has been watching over us as things have just seemed to fall into place. Just when we have no idea what to do, someone or something shows up to help us move on.

I often wonder why he has been so good to us; we certainly don't deserve it anymore than the next guy; but he has.

i would write more, but it is too difficult on this phone. i don't know how rob does it.

-T
T~

He is pretty awesome that way, I am living proof of that. It may not have ended the way I was hoping, however my ending has just begun and I couldn't be more grateful for where I am right now in my life.

Originally Posted By: tristan
i don't know how rob does it.

He has superhuman skills. wink

(((((Hugs to you both )))))
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 07/02/10 04:38 AM
hi all.

so w, girls and i have made the move down here (a couple thousand miles from where we used to be). we are both getting used to our new lives. with time, life is beginning to feel more normal. i am comfortable in my m, but also aware that nothing is for sure.

hope you are all doing well.
-t
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 07/19/10 10:44 PM
Hi again,

Just wanted to stop in and say hi to all my friends here. I know I have not been around much, but just wanted to let everyone that we are doing well. We have found a house and getting settled in. I also think my W and I have found a church that we both feel very comfortable in for the first time since being married over a decade ago. I think we are going to really like it down here.

Also felt the need to say thank you again to the ones out there that really saw me through some of the roughest days... Coach, Rob, Puppy, Greek, Serenity, Sandi and countless others. I wish I could come on here more often and help with the sage advice that you all offer here; but I am still reflecting and trying to decipher everything that went on between my W and I. Maybe, with time, I will have it figured out; exactly what went wrong in getting us to the place we were... and what we did right to get the ship turned around; but I really doubt it. So until then, I will just trust that God meant it to be.

I have been healing. I think a lot of it just comes with time. I feel my self-confidence coming back, but at the same time cognisant of how fragile things are in life. I am getting back to the guy I was a couple of years ago, but one that is more loving, caring, and understanding not just to my W; but to everyone around me. And that goes for everyone here; there isn't a day that I don't think of all of you struggling here. I know it hurts; I am sorry. But if you use this time in your lives wisely; you will learn more about yourselves than you ever thought possible. I did and still am.

A few things to take care of:
Puppy - HAPPY BIRTHDAY! I hope it was great, you deserve it. Sorry, I know it is a little late.

Serenity - Ironically, you will be entering seminary the same year as my brother. He has been accepted and be entering this fall too. I don't think I will ever be able to see him in a robe without thinking of you.

Wishing all of you the best and take care!
-Tristan
T~

It is always a wonderful day when I see you here with good news!

I am honored to know you, humbled to call you friend.

I am so proud of you T. You and your wife are forever in my prayers.

Please pass on to your brother, Good Luck and God Bless Him.

(((((Hugs))))) Don't go to far. smile

God Bless You.
Tristan,

So happy to hear you two are doing well. YOU DESERVE IT!!

And thanks for the birthday wishes. 50, geesh . . . can you believe it? And I'm SLEEPIN' WITH A GRANDMA now, too! laugh

Puppy
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 07/20/10 10:19 PM
Yes, I did know you were a grandpuppy. Congrats on that too!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/10/10 11:06 PM
Noticed my 1 yr anniversary of DBing tomorrow. Wow, it is amazing how much can happen in a year!
Hiya, Tristan!!! Hope you are doing well!!

Puppy
Posted By: ltaylor Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/11/10 01:33 AM
Puppy..had to look thru all of my pages to find one of your posts so I could locate you. Can you jump over to punkin's thread "Half Way There". She needs a fresh perspective. I'm worried about her. Just read back a couple of pages.
Tristan,

I'm so glad for you and your family. It's always good to know another marriage and family will stay together!

God bless!
Posted By: tristan Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/11/10 10:13 PM
Puppy,

I am doing very well. After living a nomadic life since May; overnightnig in 2 apartments, my parents, a cabin, several hotels, and even an airport terminal; we are finally closing on a house on Monday.

My W is interviewing for a great job on Tuesday and girls start in a great school system in a couple of weeks.

As for my W and I; we are doing as good, if not better, as you could ever expect. When I think of where we were a year ago and look at us now; it is incomprehensible that we are the same couple or individuals. We both feel so blessed; it is as if God himself has guided us through the turmoil.

I hope you are doing well too (as I do with everyone here).

Take care, you are doing God's work here.
- T
Posted By: Greek Re: W can't break EA - now wants seperation - 08/11/10 10:17 PM
Tristan,

I am happy for you and your family! Thank you for sharing a happy update ~ it's encouraging for others!

Cheers \o/ \o/ \o/
Greek
I'm happy for you!!
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