About a week ago, I had just returned from a job interview and apartment hunting in H's town. On the drive back home, I stopped at a fast food place and gave myself a horrendous case of food poisoning. It struck in the middle of the night, and by 10 am, I was weak in bed, groping for the phone between trips to the bathroom. I called H to tell him I was sick on the off chance that the offending food item had come from his fridge and not the fast food place. He didn't answer, so I left a message.
He called back within about 10 minutes, his voice full of concern. I asked if he and the kidlet (who is with him on visitation) were ok, and he said the two of them were fine. Then he chatted lightly about taking the kidlet and a friend to the beach the day before. Kidlet was exhausted and grumpy by the end of the day, but they had a great time and to dispel the grumpies, H introduced the kidlet to Monty Python's The Holy Grail. Kidlet loved it, rolling and kicking laughing on the couch at the scene with the Black Knight.
"Your arm's off!"
"No it isn't."
H and I quoted a few more lines together and shared a good laugh. I've been wanting to reconcile for awhile now, but the Monty Python moment was this wonderful epiphany for me about how compatible we are. I mean, there I was, weak and feverish from food poisoning and in the lull between vomit sessions and we're sharing this delightful moment of geeky humor. Yep, the man who can tell you Monty Python jokes while you're throwing up? That is SO the right man for me to be with.
So here's a quickie on the details. He's 38 and I'm 42, married for 15 years on our next anniversary and together for about 19 years. We met in college when he was barely 18 and were casual friends, then good friends, for about three years before we started dating. I'm not entirely sure, but I think I'm a walk-away wife. I didn't ever plan the walking away though. In fact, I never even said the D-word until I discovered he was having an affair with the wife half of the couple we thought of as our best friends - and the woman who was my confidant when he and I started having problems.
Looking back, I was over-hasty in my decision and acting out of hurt, shock and anger. Going to my mother's for a week or two to get my head straight would have been a good idea, maybe even a month or two - but leaving for good was over the top. To be fair, he and I had been having problems for over a year and both of us were hurting, needy, lonely and just aching to have someone, anyone, tell us were were wonderful, attractive and worthy of love. We were both vulnerable for an affair and I have to admit that I had an emotional one as well.
We've been separated for two years, and I've known that I wanted to reconcile for the last year and a half of it. I started the divorce proceedings, but after the initial anger-fuelled filing, I continued the process not because I wanted to, but because there was so much pressure from so many people (sometimes including him) to finalize it.
Continuing the paperwork process (there were no lawyers) against my will was soul-rending, and I thank the stars above that the papers got kicked back so many times that we're not actually divorced yet. I have told him that I can't proceed with it anymore, that it's not what I want and it's destroying me to do it. If he really wants to be divorced, then HE needs to be the one to divorce ME and we'll see if he can bring himself to do it.
I huge part of me wants to file a dismissal. In fact, I know that's the right thing to do for me. But I'm afraid he'll be angry about it and it will make things worse between us.
So back to this trip to where he lives... We live about 200 miles apart, but in the same state. I love his town, and even if we finish the split, it's where I'd like to be. I also hate my town. I landed a job interview up where he lives, and he said I could stay at the house for a few days to do the interview and apartment hunt. He said he wanted me to be closer and it would be good to have me back in town. He does not, however, want me to move back into the house, and at least verbally, he says he thinks we should finalize the divorce.
The weekend I was there was absolutely great. We laughed, we cooked together, we went out to dinner, watched movies on the couch, etc. Both of us admitted we still found the other attractive and that we were restraining urges to be physically affectionate. Him out of hurt, fear and anger (I think?) and me out of respect for where he's at and out of not wanting to push him away.
So I want my marriage back (the alcohol problems are over) and while he's ambivalent about it, I think he wants it back too - he's just not ready to admit it yet.
So there's the quick version. I've been reading this sitge and Michelle's blog and I just ordered two of her books - can't wait to get them.
Here's the issue immediately at hand - how do I handle contact between us? Right after I left, he was starting to email me to tell me little stories about the kidlet's day, etc and there was this huge blossoming of contact. We're both Harry Potter fans, so I asked him if I should go see the movie myself, or if we should wait and see it as a family. He told me to go by myself and that email felt... different, colder. So I must have hit a landmine somewhere and he's retreated back into defensiveness. So I stopped initiating contact unless it was necessary and things have ground to a halt again. So I wait... right?
I've already read a lot of things about working on me (been doing that for a year and a half!), being positive, 180s and not talking about the relationship unless he wants to.
So what else should I be doing?
Oh yeah - and Hi, everybody! I'm new here.
Cheers,
Dia
Ji Dai,
Welcome aboard. You have come to the right place I promise.
You seem to have been doing very well in handling your sitch. You seem to be a natural at it
Getting right to the nitty-gritty I can see one change that might have triggered the withdrawal you felt.
Up until that point you were both just being free and easy, no pressure of any kind. Just having fun together. Boy is that so important.
And then - pressure...
I asked him if I should go see the movie myself, or if we should wait and see it as a family.
I don't see the reason of going quiet. You just need to steer things back just one step. This may be hard depending on how big a land-mine your H thinks it was. Baby steps. Do what you were doing but not to much. Don't overdo things and check the results out.
Keep us up to date with progress.
Chin up.
Mac
Hi, Mac,
Thanks for the welcome, and yeah, I can see how the comment about the movie might have changed the dynamic for him. I have gone back to upbeat emails communicating positive details about my job search and preparations for the move, asking about the kidlet, etc. and he went right back to responding in a similar vein.
I'll add more stuff about our sitch later today. I've got packing to do today so I'll be out for a few hours.
Cheers,
Dia
and he went right back to responding in a similar vein
Yay!
Packing?
Mac
re: Packing - yes, to move back up to his town. I don't know exactly how, when or where yet, but I'm moving back there.
I'll be posting our sitch in bits and pieces as I don't ever have a long block of time to tell the whole thing at once.
Alcohol - The first hint of an alcohol problem came during the tech stock debacle in 2001. H was working for a dotcom, had a great salary, great benes and was allowed to telecommute. We'd just had a baby and we decided to move from the Bay Area where the company was located down to the Inland Empire, where both of our families live. I was a SAHM at the time because the baby was so little. We sold our condo with the three bridge view, made a killing on it and bought a 4 bed house with a pool that was about double the size of our condo. His job seemed safe at the time, so we also furnished the house.
Then, at about noon on April 15th (tax day for you non-US folks), he got a call from his work saying "You're laid off effective immediately. Please work out the day." He only got 2 weeks severance and his stock options weren't vested yet so we couldn't sell them. By June, things were financially dire, so I walked into the local school district and took whatever job they would give me - which happened to be teaching Special Ed at a high-poverty school.
At first, he tried to be a stay-at-home dad, but his depression got so bad that I put the baby in daycare instead. He also started drinking. I don't know exactly how much or how often but I remember him asking me to get another bottle of brandy as I was prepping for a Costco run. The bottles at Costco are huge - 2 liters or so - and I knew I'd stocked a new one last time I was there only a week or two before. I mentioned that was a lot to be drinking in such a short time, and he agreed and said he'd ease up.
The unemployment dragged on for more than a year, and I know that's so hard for men. At one point, he was so discouraged that he stopped even looking for work and was afraid to tell me. The depression got bad enough that when I had to be maid of honor in my sister's wedding, I wasn't sure that he'd be able to get himself and our son there in time for the ceremony and my son was supposed to be the ring bearer. I had just given him an ultimatum about seeking help for the depression (not the kind of ultimatum that involved me leaving) when he got a job offer back in his hometown. He moved up there and stayed with family friends to start the job while I stayed behind with the baby to prep the house for rental or sale.
After about 3 months, the three of us moved into a house owned by his family, the house where he lived as a child, in fact. Everything seemed amazing at first. He and I were closer than ever, we'd always wanted to be back in his hometown, we could walk to the beach, etc.
After two years in the hellhole school, I decided to go back to grad school to finish my doctorate, so I was a SAHM mom again while working on my studies. It worked *really* well.
The real estate market was booming, but I was having these gut feelings that the bottom was about to drop out and we should sell the house down south before it hit. He wouldn't agree to the sale because his family made their money in real estate. Things were starting to unravel at this point, but I wasn't aware of it. Several things were going on.
One, my thyroid went on a permanent vacation, taking my adrenals along for the ride and anyone who's been down that road knows what it's like. Trying to get diagnosed and then properly treated was a nightmare all it's own. I had been managing the finances, but a thyroid disorder affects your brain (better now, thank you Armour thyroid!) and I knew I was not competent to manage the money at that time. He took over the finances, but resentfully and unwillingly.
I begged him for months to put together a budget because I had this bad feeling that we were hemorrhaging money on the house down south even with it rented but he didn't for over a year. By the time he did, we'd burned through our investments and about 30k on a home equity loan. Finally, he agreed to put the house on the market. We bought it at 259k, listed for 550k and sold it for 485k. It was just at the start of the whole real estate collapse here, and we were early enough that we should have made a killing. But we didn't. We made all of 8k profit on the house and he turned that around and paid off a credit card with it.
While that may sound like a responsible thing to do, we had agreed that the first thing we would do with the house money was repay what we'd had to take from the kidlet's college fund. when the house sold and the checks came in, I was in the final prep for my doctoral exams, and then taking the exams themselves. I asked him to please wait just two weeks for me to get clear of my exams before he distributed the money so that I could be a part of the process but he wouldn't. He paid off the credit card and didn't put one dime back in the kidlet's college account. This was devastating for me. I never would have agreed to take the money in the first place if I'd known he wouldn't put it back. It wasn't even our money in there. It was all gifts from aunts and grandparents. I felt like he had stolen from our son.
For his part, he says he asked me a couple of times to sit down and deal with the house proceeds but I just kept putting him off - so he handled it as he saw fit. Yes, I was putting it off, but only til my exams were over.
As you can imagine, this year of severe money stress, coming right after the unemployment and me with a severe health problem took a toll on our marriage. I was tired all the time from being sick, and mentally foggy as well. I think his drinking started back up during this time, but I'm not really sure. I do know that he withdrew, spending hours upon hours playing video games on his computer. If I tried to talk to him, he would often scowl at me for interrupting what he was doing. I also had to try to keep our son away from him during these times because he was snappish with him and felt he deserved his downtime. He wasn't doing much housework, and since I was sick, I wasn't either. We started having fights about this.
I'm trying to keep this post mostly about alcohol, tho, so back to that. It got to the point where he was drinking most nights of the week, probably 5 of 7 on average, and he was having up to 6 shots worth per night. I'd expressed more concerns about the drinking and he said he'd cut back but that usually only lasted a few days. By this time, we were in marriage counseling but he was lying to the marriage counselor (or in denial) about how much and how often he was drinking. He said he drank maybe one or two nights a week and only one or two drinks. I knew it was a lot more than that, so I started marking the bottles and that's how I know it was almost every night and around 6 shots worth each night.
There were a couple of issues related to the drinking that were extremely hard for me. One, of course, was the lying. He didn't think he had a problem - other than me - with drinking. He went to two or three AA meetings but he said they weren't his kind of people, that they all had problems like DUIs, losing their jobs, losing their licenses, totalling cars, etc., that he just didn't have. Inwardly, I was thinking "Yes you do. You're about to lose your wife and son over it."
Another issue that was hard for me was that he would come home from work, ignore me completely, take the supper I'd made into his office and eat at his computer, then stay on the computer til 11 pm or midnight. By then, feeling lonely, worthless and rejected, I'd have gone to bed. When he was done with the computer, he'd come to bed and wake me up for sex with alcohol on his breath. I was sexually assaulted in college by a date who had been drinking, so that combo was bad from the get-go. But aside from that, the whole thing just cemented for me that I was worthless, not worth spending time with, talking to or being affection with - but still good enough for a drunken f*** after he was done with all the stuff he'd rather have been doing for the night.
The alcohol also led to one of the big nails in the "I'm leaving" coffin. Some friends of mine from down south were going to a club on a Saturday night. It had been more than a year since I'd seen them, and I wanted to go. I didn't get out much, so he said he'd watch the kidlet and I should go and have a great time. The three of us got a hotel room so we wouldn't have to drive at 3 am. There was no drinking at all - I just didn't want to worry about falling asleep at the wheel.
I got home around noon the next day. H was asleep in bed and our son, who was 5 at the time and in kindergarten, was hiding under the dining table with my big sewing scissors and half of his hair missing. The places where he'd cut it were cut so close to the scalp that there was no way to cut the rest and camouflage it. We had to shave his whole head right down to the skin. Those were big, sharp scissors, and I'm amazed that the child didn't manage to slice his scalp or take off part of an ear. H had been up drinking and playing computer games until 6 am when the kidlet woke up. H told him he was going to bed and to call him if he needed anything. The kidlet was still in his clothes from the day before, and he hadn't eaten anything. H says the kid should have told him if he was hungry.
This is one of the areas where the marriage counselor and I didn't see eye-to-eye. She said that was a just a permissive, laissez faire parenting style which, while different from my own style, was ok and I'd need to accept it. My take was "No, that's neglect and child endangerment."
After that, I never left H alone with the kidlet for more than a few hours during the day on weekends while I studied.
Even tho he said AA wasn't for him, H did stop drinking, and he promised that he would consume zero alcohol as long as we were together. That sounds fine in words, but there was this undercurrent to it about how it was mostly to shut me up about the alcohol and he was going back to the bottle the minute I left.
Oy, not confidence-builders for me, hmmm?
Ok, so there's the alcohol part. I don't see any alcohol problems now. He's not completely abstinent, but I don't think that every single person who's ever had a problem with alcohol has to be completely abstinent. I think moderation is fine for some people. We shared a bottle of wine while I visited that I brought as a bit of a 180 and a peace offering. I knew he'd gone back to light, social drinking, so it's not like I brought wine to a hardcore alcoholic to sabotage his recovery.
Thanks for reading everyone. I appreciate the eyes even if you don't leave comments.
BTW, I'm not trying to paint H as the big bad guy. I've done some doozies of my own that I'll get to as the story unfolds.
I could sure use some extra voices in here. I think if I'd had more support, more people I could talk to (ok, ANY people I could talk to) that it might not have progressed as far as me leaving.
If you're not sure what to say, it would be fine to just say "Hi, Dia. Welcome to the board."
Hi DIA.
Sorry you find yourself here, but it is a great resource.
What is the current situation with your H's drinking? Sorry if you put this in your post, but I have been driving most of today (picked up S9 from camp), and I'm a little tired.
Hi, GIMA,
Thanks for stopping in.
The drinking has subsided - at least as far as I have seen - to a point where it's a non-issue for me. I think it was situational both times, and I think he may have finally admitted there was a problem, not only with frequency and amounts, but with his reason for drinking also (to dull pain). It may be something that we both have to keep tabs on in case there's a resurgence if things get bad again, but I'm willing to give this a go and see where it leads.
OK.
You said you ordered a book(s) from Michele. Read them as soon as they come (I am sure you will).
From teh sound of it, you have already been doing some of what the book will recommend.
Stay positive and work on you. Then when you have interaction with your H, be interested, but don't pursue him.
Good luck. I will keep my eye out for you.
Whoah. I just did something major. I admitted my emotional affair to my mother. Casually, with regret about the affair but without guilt. Not because an EA doesn't deserve a whole crap-load of guilt, but because I've been down that long, miserable guilty road and I've finally forgiven myself for it. And somewhere along the line, I forgave H for his as well.
But re: my mother - it's not fair to H to let him take all the heat (at least in my parents' eyes) for a big, narsty PA with my best friend when I strayed myself.
Hi Dia!
Welcome on board. Boy, you`ve both been through the wars. Sometimes I feel when both spouses are wounded they just get to the point of dragging each other down until one spouse staggers to their feet to see what the heck it`s all about.
Looks like you`re a long way down the line in that process.
I`m going to stop short of advising you though. I`m too much in the throes of trying to figure out my own chaos to tell someone else what to do.I will tell you what`s helping me but this isn`t a one size fits all job, as you`ve probably figured.
Have to say I found lovingly detaching from my H hugely helpful(though its a struggle when we`re both living together). The Last Resort Technique as described in Michelle`s books(Divorce Remedy and Divorce Busting) has been a great tool for helping me detach.
After a long hunt, I`ve found a great therapist who`s not letting me off the hook for all I`ve done to cause the chaos(and there was me blaming H all along).I see her weekly.She keeps me sane.
Be careful who you confide in. You really don`t want this blown up out there to the point that its irretrievable. You can expect your family to take your side and want to KILL your H, so that`s not going to be too helpful, and its nice to be able to have a light hearted evening with GFs without your sitch being up for discussion. I have one very trusted GF who`s fully supportive of my fight through the chaos.
See this as a journey of discovery for you of you.I`ve learnt so much about friendship, relationships, marriage, me and what I want from life. At the very least I know this is making me a better person. Even if I lose H I hope at least to have improved me and to have brought my relationship skills to a more evolved level.
Stand tall and strong!
Hi Dia, I too was a WAW and I know how hard it is to come here where the majority of members are LBS. But, hopefully, you will get the encouragement that I received and it saved my M and actually kept me from leaving. I had the mentality of a WAW for a long time, but was so blessed by the help people gave me here. And, guess who helped the most? One was another WAW who had really had a bad experience and told me what I could look forward to if I continued down that road.....and the other was a LBW who had a WAH who was in MLC. Of course, many others were there but so many LBS came to me to help. I figured I would be the last person on earth they would even speak to....but I was wrong.
You will probably have some to ask your opinions b/c they seek the POV of the WAW, so don't hesitate to give that. We all help each other b/c if we didn't have problems, we wouldn't be here.
There are many people who saved their M's with the DB techniques. There is a forum here called Another Divorce Busted that would probably be encouraging. Most of the people who were successful have moved on after staying around to help for a while. So, don't do as some and try to gauge the "success" by how many are here on the board who's M are working. As you continue along, you will discover that this is not just about busting a D, but actually self-survival as a person.
We have all types of personalities here, as you would expect. Some are loving and soft spoken and try to cheer you up. Others get down to brass tacks and hit pretty strong. You may run into somebody who is really hurt and come across as being bitter toward all WAW's, but it isn't really directed toward "you". Everyone here is either in pain now.....or has suffered pain in the past. We are a community and you will be surprised at the new friends you will make. So, welcome.....and come to post as offten as you can. Go to other forums & read posts and reach out to them and you'll build your own support system up faster.
Take care,
Sandi
Dia,
I can tell you that first, Sandi is great. She has helped me and given me perspective I would not otherwise have had. Which leads me to my second point - as a potential LBH, I cannot emphasize how important it is for someone like me to hear the POV of a WAW. How else would we LBH's have any idea of what our WAW's might be thinking and what might be important to them. While you might run across the occasional bitter person (I have not seen that happen yet, but I've only been her a couple of months), the overwhelming majority of LBH's will welcome your (and other WAW's) perspectives. Oh, and I'm not sure you are a WAW, but your experience is certainly one that a WAW has.
Hi, everyone,
Fallgirl, Sandi and GIMA - thank you for your comments.
This post is just a quickie as I'm in the middle of a bunch of stuff, but I had a good chat with both the kidlet and the H this morning. Not relationship stuff, just upbeat day-to-day stuff with lots of affirmation and praise for H thrown in. I wasn't good enough about that at times, and he seems to really glow with it when I do it now.
Kidlet is a perceptive little monkey! He's 9 and going into 4th grade. He (kidlet) was telling me how he'd been playing this video game his dad made (H is a programmer). I drew him out on it, asking him about his characters and what kind of stuff you could do in the game. Kidlet told me to get paper and pencil and then wait a minute while he asked his dad a question. When he came back to the phone, kidlet gave me the url for the game!
I was surprised, so I asked the kidlet if giving me the address was his own idea or his Dad's. Kidlet said it was his own idea, that when I heard about it I sounded like I might want to play it. Smart kidlet!! And even better, the only people who are in that game right now are H, kidlet and a good mutual friend of ours. The question kidlet had asked his dad was to write down the url so he could give it to me, so H must have wanted me to have it.
After kidlet got off the phone, I praised H for making the game and told him how interesting it sounded, how I was looking forward to trying it, etc. Even better, once I HAVE tried it, I'll be able to give him more praise and affirmation for it.
We also talked about my impending move, and how I'm debating about a possible PT job offer with a really low salary. It wouldn't be enough for me to live on independently, even with child support. The advantage of taking it is that if I do, our son gets a free ride at the pricey, prestigious private school where the position is located. It would also give me first dibs at moving into something FT as soon as it opened up and there's some possibility of them tailoring a position especially for me if I can just get in and get a foothold.
One of the really obvious solutions to this is for H to invite me to come back to the house - but I have NOT asked directly. I'm worried that it would be too much, too soon and too much pressure on both of us. Either way, I think he needs to be the one to make the invitation.
Have a great day everyone!!
Hi Dia.
I have a son that is the same age and grade level as yours (and a wonderful daughter - 5 going on 25). They are great aren't they?
Only thing I would caution you on is not to be over the top with your praise to H. When you read the DB/DR books, you will see a big no no is taking action that your H could perceive as pursuing. You don't want to do this right now. Some praise, fine. Just don't get carried away with it.
Another book I would recommend is The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. It really helped me understand how my W was trying to show me love and how I was incorrectly showing her.
Thank you, GIMA.
Balance on the praise issue is hard. Giving it is a 180 for me, so I should do it. But pursuing is counter-productive, so I shouldn't do it. Easy to see why this DB stuff provokes hair-tearing.
But - thank you for the caution, and I will be careful with it.
Re: the LL book - It will most likely be my next used book purchase or library read.
Dia,
I have found a lot of the books I have read at the library. All about saving $$$$. Plus, Amazon.com has a lot of used copies as well.
Oh, and I don't know if anyone has told you, but DO NOT let your H know about the DB/DR books or its teachings. It is strictly for you. If your H knows about this stuff, he may think you are only changing to try to trick him to come back.
If praise is a 180, then a good idea. You know what is too much though. The idea is to create some interest in your H coming back, so you are working on you to make yourself more attractive - not just physically, but in all the other ways. You want confidence.
hope and expectations?
Example: Our 15th wedding anniversary is coming up in about 6 weeks. I would really love to be with H then in some capacity or other. Whether it's a movie on the couch, a date, a walk on the beach with the kidlet, a casual lunch - or even pleasepleaseplease, a super romantic dinner date for just the two of us.
(And yeah, I know that last one is pure fantasy-land, so like, while I'm at it, can I have a pony, too? I'd probably be moved to tears if I could even just hold his hand.)
How do you folks handle all of these hopes/dreams/desires in the context of your day-to-day sitch and DBing? I think I'm getting the massage that hope is ok but expectations aren't? So how does one actually DO that? And how do you act-as-if and not fall into the trap that everything will go just like you want it?
Dia,
I'd probably be moved to tears if I could even just hold his hand.
Yeah, I know. I haven't touched my W since the bomb, and it is very hard not to want to reach out and hug her. I'm the touchy-feely type and really need that from her and to be allowed to give her that. But, I have larger goals, and so the touchy-feely stuff just has to wait.
It is tough, but the prize is worth the wait. As you will learn from reading DB/DR, you need to GAL (get a life by doing things you have always wanted to do or that you enjoy doing). You also have to adopt a new mindset (the books cover this much more than I can in a post). Basically, you have to come to grips with the fact that you cannot control what your H does/says. All you can do is control you. So, with DB'ing, you set about on a path of changing you for the better. Otherwise, your chances of luring your H back are not very good.
A lot of this, and what the books say, seems counter-intuitive, but it is necessary.
Also, at least for me, I have re-connected my religion - that was something that has been missing. If you are so inclined, I suggest prayer. It has done wonders for me. Daily, I pray for patience, peace, patience, wisdom, patience, strength, and patience. You get the idea.
Example: Our 15th wedding anniversary is coming up in about 6 weeks. I would really love to be with H then in some capacity or other. Whether it's a movie on the couch, a date, a walk on the beach with the kidlet, a casual lunch - or even pleasepleaseplease, a super romantic dinner date for just the two of us.
My anniversary is in 2 weeks. W is going to get a card with a pic of my daughters and it will be about them and what that day gave to us. I expect nothing in return.
Hope for the future is what you keep. Expectations get thrown out the window so you don't disapoint yourself when something you do doesn't get the reaction you are looking for or hoping for. keep hope and patience. Expect nothing. Be happy when something occurs. If you expect nothing, it will be that much more pleasant when something happens and if nothing happens, you won't be disapointed.
Don't live your life for your S. Live your life for God and for you and your kids if you have any. I haven't read your whole stich.
Its a long road. Don't take temperature checks right now. Infact, don't take them until you see something that happily surprsises you. Even then, take it with a grain of salt until it becomes more common and more to it.
Kevin
Hi, K4D, and thank you for jumping in.
I have definitely reconnected with my spiritual side - I'm a UU with Catholic roots. I feel the Universe is leading me back to H's town and back to my marriage, but it's also making me work harder for it than anything I have ever worked for in my life. Then again, one of my mottoes is "The prize too easily won is easily cast away."
Not sure if anyone here does Myers-Briggs or not (MBTI), but even though I am not an ESFJ, I am identifying HARD with their 'prayer', which is:
"God, please give me the patience to deal with things more effectively, and I mean RIGHT NOW."
Dia,
I can certainly identify on the lack of patience thing. That has been one of my big changes.
I didn't address your expectations issue. Unfortunately, this is part of learning a new mindset for a while. You have to show unconditional love - meaning you do something without ANY expectation of receiving something in return. It is hard at first. You will, however, focus your efforts on improving yourself. In that process, you will see that the only person responsible for your happiness is...YOU. Not H or anyone else. So, if you only depend on yourself to make you happy, having no expectations from H becomes easier.
It doesn't mean you stop caring. It means you become much healthier in your outlook on your relationship.
Thanks, folks,
I walked some of this off, turned on HGTV for a bit and dozed in a chair. I'm sleep deprived today which always makes things worse and I'm stressy due to my unemployment sitch. There were some big smackdowns on that front today, which leaves me feeling very needy for some smidgen of good news from somewhere, anywhere but wanting it most of all from H.
The nap and head clearing was good, but them my folks immediately called me into the back of the house to put the thumbscrews to me about teaching. Subbing is a decent stop-gap option but I just can't see getting into (and paying for) a credential program right now when schools are RIFing 20% of staff, hitting really high up into seniority lists, ect. Like I'd have any chance at getting hired in that climate? Who the heck are they kidding.
LOL!!! Guess I have some more crap to walk off!
Hi there, good job on giving the H praises. I was not good in that area myself and I've read many, many times that that is almost the number one need for men....is admiration. I use to feel so phoney when I tried to compliment my H.....but, I give other people my praises, so why not him? Do be careful to start out gently with the compliments or it will appear to be pursuing.
I want to give you a list of Do's & Don'ts for the LBS....while you are waiting for your DR book. It is a short guideline and the principles are taken from the book. Don't feel overwhelmed by it, just b/c it may seem long. These techniques really work. This is not the entire list, but couldn't get my computer to copy & past out of my documents. Anyway, it's a start!
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls to him/her.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to him/her through conversation.....say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out the good things in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage
books, etc.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention. Don’t act as if you are going to gobble up their “crumbs”(Remember, you are
drawing him/her back with this technique.)
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. They can’t fix what is wrong.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.)
8. Do not buy gifts. (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together. (That is pursuing.)
10.Do not spy on spouse. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make him/her say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act as if you are moving on with your life as if you’ve had a “wake-up call”.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times!
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, go walking, etc.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be scarce or short on words but don’t act “hurt” or mad. If he/she asks what's wrong....just say "nothing". Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! Do not sit up late waiting for him/her to arrive home.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more importantly, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) Do not discuss your plans of self improvement.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around, somebody that is attractive and fun. You want them to think that they would be a fool to leave a person as great as you.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let him/her trap you into a fight. WAS are able to do that easily, so be on your guard and refuse to get into a R talk.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic in showing a PMA, b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how he/she feels (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.)
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give him/her space and time.
25.(This is MHO) Do not go out (date) with other people or flirt with others--in order to cause your spouse to feel jealous. It is best to stay away from places that would encourage temptation with the opposite sex. (Some people on the board have different opinions about this issue.)
Thanks, Sandi!!
If you (or anyone else) has a sec, how do you reconcile 20 with 21? So if H wants to talk, do I or don't I? Or do I only not talk if I sense he is spoiling for a fight or a gripe-fest?
Ok, I worked myself out of my tree in part by counting my blessings. Thanks go out to those of you who called the fire department and brought ladders.
1) I found about 4 new jobs to apply for in H's town and I will complete those apps tomorrow.
2) I made myself a GAL list, so when I'm struggling I can pick someting off the list and go do it.
3) I tried out H's new game not just so I could praise him for it but because I was truthfully interested.
4) Then I called H to offer some heartfelt praise about how tickled I was with it and how impressed I was with him.
Like other praise attempts from me, he just glowed. He was completely tickled by my response - he used that word. I used it first to describe my reaction to the game, but then he used it back - so I know he was listening!! The praise drew him out to talk about the project, describing some details and his inspiration for it. I noticed that the artwork was all his own, and made sure to mention that a noticed.
I kept the convo short, saying that I had to get back to my folks. Leave em on a high note and wanting more, right?
Woo hoo! I can DO this!
You sound good Dia. I'm glad.
I can tell you from a man's perspective, the adivce Sandi (she's great by the way) gave you about men needing to hear compliments, is dead on. I cannot tell you the last time my W gave me a positive comment about something other than a meal I cooked. It really means a lot to a man, whether we all admit it or not.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
I guess this one did need explaining a bit further. It means that as a W (who could be a LBW), you do not need to ask him questions about how he feels regarding the M or anything about the R. When W's are nervous and wondering if H may up and leave at any moment, they may tend to "dig" for answers, but that is a no-no. As tempting as it may be, just don't bring up any topics regarding the MR. If he says anything that implies "working" on the M....then let him do the talking and you try to do the listening and validate what you can.....what you can't agree with, then tell him it's too bad he feels that way about it. But, don't go into a lot of talk.....let him do it. (If this still seems "muddy" then let me know and I'll try to do better at explaining.)
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let him/her trap you into a fight. WAS are able to do that easily, so be on your guard and refuse to get into a R talk.
Potential WAH's are famous for putting the focus on the W. Making
you out to be the "bad guy". Everything is your fault, in their eyes. Your emotions are already raw, so it doesn't take much to get into a R argument. They can trap you so easily by making you upset and losing your cool. Don't fall for his trap! It's actually as if they are setting "traps" to hook you into a R argument.
Another word of caution.....ease up on the praise thing. I think you are doing an over-kill. You must be careful about over-killing anything & everything. He likes it right now b/c he's probably starved for it, but it
will seem like you are pursuing--if you don't back off a bit. Okay? You have told him more than once how great his new game is, and now you've called him about it, so I would not just keep on about how wonderful it is. Maybe find something else in a day or two to compliment him about. Does that makes sense? It's a fine line to walk.
Sometimes I may not communicate too well.
*giggling*
H came into the game and buffed me. For you non-gamers, this means the bestowing of beneficial and protective magics. *beaming*
Ok, I will give it a rest for a bit - tho this is the first time I praised him about the game. When I heard about it, I expressed interest more than praise.
Thanks for the input!!
Dia
How are your GAL goals going? Have your friends you can call on to so you can get out there and have fun?
So important to get the focus off DBing even when you are DBing if you know what I mean-like sometimes I reckon I spend too much time on this board instead of GALing!
I see you`re working on getting a job. Best of luck with that! Substitute teaching can be fun as you get to meet so many people, different school situations and get a taste for what you might like to do with teaching later on. Are there any course you could take in the fall to help you towards furthering your career in that area?(and get your mind of H!)
Hi, Fallgirl,
Re: subbing/taking classes - This is a bit of a messed up situation. All I have left to finish my doctorate is my dissertation. Subbing wold be a stop gap to earn money in this difficult economy. My parents raised us kids to believe 'that we could do anything we wanted' career-wise. What I didn't realize was that there was this unspoken part that said "As long as it's teaching." I'm the eldest. My younger bro and sis dutifully went into the family business - one is a science teacher and one teaches gym. Me, silly me - I wanted this doctorate and to work in non-profit development. It's amusing in a sort of twisted way that I *never* hear any encouragement to work on or finish my dissertation, but they've offered me money if I would go get a teaching credential.
They are both retired boomers who are in a bit of denial about the current job market. Their idea of the work world is that you get one good job with nice benes and a pension, stay in it 40 years, save your money and retire. The whole benes and a pension things doesn't exist much out there anymore and we live in a community where unemployment is almost double the nat'l average. Even worse, this place is a retirement resort - think golf courses and casinos - so the primary employers are healthcare, small business and tourism and the latter two barely pay minimum wage unless you're the owner.
Even worse, my folks are also completely deluded about the daycare situation. Here's a bit of math:
2 bedroom apt = $1000/month
daycare = $450/month
utilities, gas, groceries = $600/month
--------------------------------------
bare minimum = $2100/month after taxes
Sub pay = $95/day
There are 21 - 23 potential sub days in a given month, so best case scenario is that I will make about $2200/month subbing if I work *every single day* - and there's no guarantee of that. Take out taxes, health ins and union dues, and I'll be lucky if my check is $1700 - which won't pay for the daycare I'll need to do the job.
Now - that and 's just me venting, and mostly at my parents and the economy. Please don't think I'm being snarky at you or that I didn't appreciate the suggestion.
Certainly no offence taken, Dia!I`m glad to read that you`re strong minded enough to make your own decisions in the face of your folks` opposition.
I`m working through my own family of origin stuff to see why I`ve ended up like I am and I find is useful to look at the influence they`ve had on my life choices.
Follow your heart girl but keep up the math!
More on our sitch...
To put it bluntly, we've both had affairs. Emotional for sure, and physical - well, probably. How can one 'probably' have had a PA - it's a matter of timing, I guess. I'll get to that in a minute.
First of all, let me give you an analogy about why a supposedly 'good', committed spouse gets drawn into an affair.
Imagine that you're in a closed room and the oxygen is slowly being sucked out. At first, you carry on with your life and you don't even notice. Then something seems subtly off, but most likely, you think it's you - you haven't been getting enough sleep, you're stressed, you need a vacation, something like that. As the precious oxygen drops lower and lower, everything becomes a struggle and an act of will. You start tapping on the windows to get someone's attention, but no one listens. "Hey, I can't breathe. I think there's a problem in here."
Joy, happiness, hope, optimism -- they're all being sucked out of you just like the air. Every movement feels like pushing through molasses and you're breathing in deep, ragged gasps. You may even pound on the doors screaming and crying for more air, just a little more... please...
Eventually, you sink to the floor in utter defeat, weakly saying goodbye to your spouse, your life, your children, because you know you're dying and no one cares. No one will help you. You're too weak even to cry.
Then just before your eyes close, someone slips a hose under the door and there's this thin trickle of pure, sweet O2. You're in disbelief for the first few breaths. Am I hallucinating? Is this real?? Someone is finally giving me what I need to live? A few more breaths and maybe you can push up from the floor. Another few and maybe you can even stand. You walk around, touch the walls but there's still no air in the rest of the room - so you have to go back to the hose.
Sometimes, maybe not for everybody, the hose begins to whisper.
"Breathe deeper. It's here for you."
"HE put you in here (your spouse). He's the one starving you for air."
"I can get you out. I can take care of you."
"I'll give you all the air you want for the rest of your life. All you have to do is open the door..."
You look back at your spouse, but the windows are thick, soundproof glass. He didn't hear you begging and pleading for air. He didn't seem to notice when you slumped to the floor half-dead. Or maybe he did. Maybe he was on the other side of the window telling you everything was fine; that the lack of air was all in your head. And maybe he even got mad at you for needing to breathe in the first place.
So you listen to the hose some more.
If you stay in the room, you'll die without the hose.
If you leave the room, you have to give up your life and leave your spouse behind.
How long will you let yourself gasp for air in the vacuum box before you give in and take the only thing promising you life?
The oxygen, of course, is love, and that's what it's like to get sucked into an affair.
Hi Sandi,
Thanks for the list. I'm sure everyone is busy memorizing it.
Been trying to get the DB books here in South Africa for AGES.
Amazon doesn't send books (and other things) here anymore because of some light-fingered so-and-so's nicking them.
ARRRGGGGG.
Mac
Dear dia (is there an echo in here?)
Thanks go out to those of you who called the fire department and brought ladders.
And the BEST thing you can do for yourself you're already doing.
You have found your funny bone - YAY
Mac
Hiya, Mac,
Hope you find a cute new fishie!
I'm headed over to the other house to continue packing my stuff out. For those who missed it, I am NOT packing to leave my H. I am packing to move back to where he lives, though not back into our house.
I won't have internet there, so I'll check in with everyone later.
Cheers,
Dia
Hi Dia
Welcome to the boards. I saw your post on SDFoundGirl's thread and wanted to pop over to say hi. Our sitch's are nothing at all alike but I like your writing and what you have to say. Just saying that because I don't think I'll have a lot to offer in the way of advice but can offer support.
I think it's good that you want to take responsibility of your share of the R problems with your family. How did your mother react? I've been avoiding my mother for months while working through things because she does not approve of how I'm handling my R. Sigh. Sometimes family means well but aren't helpful because they just want your pain to end.
Okay, I just didn't you want to go hog wild on the praise kick.....
Try it again tomorrow, maybe? Just a little bit...LOL.
I didn't have a PA, but I did have an EA and could identify with your anology of being in a room without oxygen. I can't imagine what how I would have ended.....if it had went to a PA. The EA almost distroyed me.....not to mention my M. I didn't know "who" I was anymore. I think that was as much my goal as saving my M. Trying to find Sandi again.
Hi, all, and welcome to my place, Pearl,
I[m tired after packing/moving. Sigh. My books arrive tomorrow. Now I'm impatient for them to arrive instead of being impatient for my marriage to come back. LOL! I guess that's a better thing to be impatient about, right?
Hi Dia.
You sound well. Just checking in.
Hi, all,
New developments. I am going up to H's tomorrow to do more job hunting. I could have left tomorrow, but not w/o my books, and yes, I know I can't let him see them, not DB and DR at least. What about Love Languages, tho?
The duration of the trip is up in the air, dependent on how the hunt goes and whether we hit any landmines with me staying in the house. We didn't last time. In fact, we had a pretty darn good time. There were a few awkward moments, but overall, it was pretty good.
So - anyone got suggestions/advice for spending a few days at H's house?
hrm, edit time expired while I was typing, here's the rest of the post:
I'm a lil skeered, actually. See, when I visited last time, I hadn't been to that house in almost 2 years. I expected to walk into the same falling down, oughtta be condemned dive that I left. His folks own the house and had allowed to to fall into severe disrepair through a long series of rentals. We did a lot of work on it together, but there was still a lot more to do and at least when I was there, H wouldn't do it unless I was the motivating force.
It was night and day different, and it really cemented for me that he really *had* changed some of the behaviors that just weren't working for me. So the possibility of reconciling is a whole lot more real this time than last time, especially given the conversation I'm about to relate.
After a great weekend together, H brought up the divorce papers which had been kicked back a few months before and instead of sending them to me, they sent them all to him. So I hadn't heard thing one about them since I mailed them way back at the end of Jan. I knew I didn't want to be divorced then, but people were pushing me about it and I caved.
H said he wanted to finalize things. I said I didn't. Not in an argumentative way, just very matter of fact. I said I'd felt that way for a long time and that I'd been pursuing the divorce against my will. I said I wasn't willing to do that any longer. I didn't want the divorce, so if he did, he was going to have to file himself and be the one to divorce me.
Fast forward a bit and he was saying that I had all these expectations, namely that we would move in together instantly and just go straight back to being a married couple. I said no, that isn't what I expected or even what I wanted. His back was half turned, but I knew he was listening. He asked me what I did want.
I said that moving right back in together was probably too much too soon and might doom us to failure, that I thought even if things went well, we were going to need our own spacce to pull back and reflect from time to time and to feel safe since we'd both been so badly hurt. I said what I thought we should do was just hang out together, spend some time getting to know each other again without expectations either way and see what happened.
He said OK.
And then I dropped it fast and got back to something really light because I knew the conversation had pushed him about as far as he could go at that time. I also left later that same day to come back down here, so he had some nice time and space to think about it.
So - suggestions? I know I've got to keep my cuddly longings under tight zip unless he initiates, and I'm not to get suckered into talks/fights about the R - but what else? Kidlet will be there most of the time, btw.
Make sure your H doesn`t see DB, DR, and esp that you are not on this forum. Yes, I know you`re already aware of that but I speak as one who has on two occasions left on of those books out and I nearly died when H found them. Damn! Not good for kidlet to pick up either! So be careful.
Your H will find DB even more easily on PC since that`s what he`s into so delete temp files just as soon as your logged outta here. Just get the habit, cos one day he`ll pop onto your PC just to check email and wham! you`re done.
"I know I've got to keep my cuddly longings under tight zip unless he initiates, and I'm not to get suckered into talks/fights about the R" keeping it light, not initiating or pursuing is exactly right, from my reading of DB. Though I`m cagey about advising since you`re at a point I`ve never got to yet, and I`m pea green with envy actually.
I sometimes wonder if separation AND EA or PA can actully clarify for BOTH parties what they really want.You`ve done all that already and maybe that`s got you as far on as you are today.
Unemployment can suck the hope out of anyone so don`t use that time just to focus on reestablishing the M, go research some freebie GALing you can do. Stuff you`ve never tried before. I`m on 8 weeks hols from work so I know that`s a factor it getting me more focusses on our R and the more I`m focussed the crazier and more impatient I`m getting! So I make myself try new things all the time particularly those involving self care and having fun.
A few suggestions:
Change what you eat for breakfast
Change where you eat breakfast
Change your brand of toothpaste
Go hike in the hills
Visit a church you`ve never been to before
Try a new recipe
Contact a friend you haven`t been in touch with for years
Go pick up an old hobby
Paint your nails
Run a bubble bath with candles
Get the idea? A lot of DB IS about having fun and loving yourself first.
Better run off now and take some of my own advice!
Dia,
I think being a little jumpy is understandable, and manageable. Posting from my blackberry so I will be short.
Try to treat H like a good friend when you are around him. Keep it light and fun and don't get sucked into R talk. Plan activities around kidlet as well as for yourself - can be just going for a walk.
If D comes up, and you can't avoid talking @ it, tell H this is not what you want, but you cannot prevent him from seeking D. But, that will be his decision. Then leave it alone. And be calm.
Don"t have any expectations, just have (and be) fun and enjoy being with kidlet. This is going to take time.
GIMA and Fallgirl - thank you!!
Acting like a good friend will be easy, and I will do my best on the other stuff.
As far as the affair part, well, yeah - I'm dead sure I DON'T want the OM. (*Massive eye roll at self*) H has a long-distance relationship with someone atm, but it's not the OW who invaded our marriage. This is a relationship he started during the sep when both of us really, truly believed that there was nothing left. He's not serious about her - by his own admission - tho I think she is about him. She lives many states away and they hardly ever see each other. That's his to manage, tho. Apparently, his EA/PA with my former best friend crashed and burned really fast. I'm not upset, don't feel betrayed etc about the current OW. Technically, I don't even consider it an affair as it was started in good faith. Complication, yes; affair, no.
My sense of what's holding him back from full reconciliation is fear of being hurt again (understandable) and anger about me leaving (also understandable). For me, the caution points are that I do NOT want a return to certain behaviors of his - drinking, neglect of me or kidlet, no housework, etc. I saw so much improvement while I was there last time, that I'm good with 2 of the 3, and the withdrawal/neglect issue - well, after more than a year and a half of IC for me, I've got a whole new toolkit to deal with how some of MY behaviors contributed to that.
Ok, I have a bajillion things to do today, so I need to get crackin'!
Cheers!!
My books are here and I am happily reading.
Re: the upcoming visit - My expectation is actually that this visit will NOT be as good as the last one. He's jumpy too, I'll wager, and may be more defensive and hading behind his walls. That's ok - I have books to read. Jane Austen, not DB - at least in front of him.
Good for you.
My books are here and I am happily reading.
Re: the upcoming visit - My expectation is actually that this visit will NOT be as good as the last one. He's jumpy too, I'll wager, and may be more defensive and hading behind his walls. That's ok - I have books to read. Jane Austen, not DB - at least in front of him.
er -- "hiding" not hading
ok, read all of Love Languages and about 60% of DR.
Kidlet's love language is Quality Time.
Oddly enough, I am less sure about Hubby's and mine. Mine is either Quality Time or Physical Touch, leaning toward Quality Time. My biggest gripe about the M was the he would never spend time with me, and my biggest hurt was that he was spending it with someone else. It's the touch I'm craving at present, but I think overall, QT may be more important.
As for him... I think it's Words of Affirmation, but it might be Physical Touch, instead. At the moment, he's responding very well to verbal praise and appreciation and touches might be a bit risky. However, he has touched me on several occasions, so it's possible that's what he really wants. Things like complimenting my blouse, then fingering the material, complimenting my hair, then touching it, etc. I've also gotten some good hugs recently and even one really surprising kiss on the top of the head when I was upset about something.
Dia, when I considered H's love language I considered both the way he acted during the best times towards me and others and then thought of his criticism of me. I realised Acts of Service was his. He also said, "I can never make you happy" or something along those lines. I recognised that he needed words of affirmation. I guess I'm a lot more strategic now and I do text or email when I recognise his efforts and I am happy with him. I ask him to help me occasionally so he can feel good by doing Acts of service for me. I loved that book and feel it, along with DR have made a huge difference for my sitch.
Ok
Now I KNOW I`ve gotta get the Five Languages of Love! Thanks Dia!
Dia,
That is funny b/c my LL's are Words of Affirmation followed very closeley by Physical Touch. I suspect most men have those as their primary LL's.
That book was a quick read, but oh so helpful.
I would let your H initiate any affection/touching and respond accordingly - just don't go overboard with it. At the same time, you don't want him to feel "rejected.". I know its a fine line, but you can walk it.
Hi dia,
I echo givingitmyall - you're doing really well. Proud of you girl!
And thanks for asking about the new fishy. She made instant friends with Stick (short for LipStick). It's so cute!
Hope it's a premonition of things to come.
Have a great day - yours will just be starting - it's 13:30 here.
One more appointment to sort other people's problems out and then I can concentrate on my own
Have a wonderful one everybody. We deserve it.
Mac
Thanks for stopping in, everyone!! I'm out of here in an hour or two to make the 4-plus hour drive to where H lives. Since DBing has to stay covert, I might not be around much for the next several days. I will check in as I can but please forgive me if I am not making the rounds or commenting as much as I have been.
Oh, and another good thing - in the last 6 weeks, I have dropped about 15 lbs. I am overjoyed, especially because I am not 'doing' anything, not dieting. I've been reading The Gabriel Method, but that isn't a diet and I'm not controlling what I eat - just eating what and when I feel like. Whatever is happening, tho - I'll take it!!
I need to drop maybe 30 more before I get into 'smoking hot' territory, but for now I'm just happy with those first 15.
I could have left tomorrow, but not w/o my books, and yes, I know I can't let him see them, not DB and DR at least. What about Love Languages, tho?
Never let him see any material on the subject of M. He doesn't need to see you reading books, watching/listening to M programs.....nothing. It would be like a threat....or pressure to a WAS.
HI, all,
Quick check in.
I am at H's house. Things are light, happy and cordial, but not particularly warm. Not cold either, just not as warm as last time. No hug, for instance. I expected this, of course, but it's still a bit disappointing.
I did not bring the DB book as that way no accidents can happen. I have LL with me, but it's in my luggage so he won't find it unless he's snooping.
I brought kidlet a small present, a lego set he likes that I'd been saving for Christmas but I felt like giving it to him now. H heard, looked over and seemed to approve.
House has been tidied and vacuumed since I've been here and no dishes in the sink - very good things. I'm sleeping on the couch. *shrug* Also what I expected, but, well, you know where I'd rather be sleeping.
We watched a movie as a family, kidlet and I one the sofa and H on the loveseat. He kept looking over at me to see if I was laughing, and I was.
He and kidlet made smoothies for dessert and they were good. I said thank you and observed that he was right - they didn't need any sugar at all. Very light affirmation as before he felt I would never let him be right.
I also noticed that he had replaced some light switches in the house. Not just the face plate, but a whole new type of switch. After I confirmed that he did it - and he was proud to tell me he'd done it himself - I said fairly matter of factly, "wow, I'm impressed. I'd have been too afraid to mess with electricity that way."
I can't touch him, but I can offer words of affirmation.
Oh, and he did brush against me in a narrow place in the kitchen, so at least he's not avoiding me to the degree that he would come that close, ya know? This is maybe a good thing?
And things being light, happy and cordial, that's a good thing.
PMA
PMA
PMA
I gotta tell ya, reading LL is making a difference in my interactions with the kidlet. It's SO clear to me now what he's wanting/needing/asking for when he invites me to make a critter with him in Spore, or watch a movie with him or any of the myraid things he wants people to do with him. It's not about the activity - he's asking for love. And perhaps even more important, he's *expressing* love through an offer of quality time. I can't always say yes when he asks, but I am not extremely cognizant of the risks and the effect on him if I say no too often.
So this morning while H was in the shower, I made coffee. I drink coffee too, so making it was as much for me as it was for him. With regard to timing, however, I wanted it to be ready and smelling great when he got out of the shower.
He noticed and said "Who produced this awesomeness?!" I told him I had and he thanked me.
I had gathered a few dishes from the counters and things and put them in the sink, intending to wash them after he went to work. While I was sitting and looking at some funny pictures with kidlet, he washed them while chatting with his dad.
When I went into the kitchen, I noticed the missing dishes. "Hey, who washed the dishes? I was going to do that." H piped up, "Oh, I did." and I thanked him. Not a whole huge praise-fest, just a simple thank you.
So then kidlet joined the fray, adding his happy little voice...
"See what happens when you get back together? Each of you does the chores the other one was planning to do."
EEEK! I *love* that kidlet noticed and called a spade a spade, but I was wincing a bit thinking that H was going to knee-jerk over that comment. Neither one of us said anything about it, and it didn't noticeably tense up the environment or anything.
H said there would be hamburgers for dinner tonight, but that due to traffic, he was going to try coming home a little later than usual to see if it shortened his drive. That could be the pure and simple truth, because I know that the 10 mile drive can take a full hour in rush hour traffic but part of me wonders if it's so he can have a phone call or IM session with the OW. I saw him texting this morning while sitting on his bed. He didn't close the door, which means he was pretty comfortable about the whole thing but yeah, part of me wonders if he was texting her. *sigh*
Patience and PMA!!!
Hey Dia,
I just posted a response to you on my thread.
"See what happens when you get back together? Each of you does the chores the other one was planning to do."
They are perceptive little creatures, aren't they?
he was going to try coming home a little later than usual to see if it shortened his drive. That could be the pure and simple truth, because I know that the 10 mile drive can take a full hour in rush hour traffic but part of me wonders if it's so he can have a phone call or IM session with the OW. I saw him texting this morning while sitting on his bed. He didn't close the door, which means he was pretty comfortable about the whole thing but yeah, part of me wonders if he was texting her. *sigh*
Yeah, I know. Just play it cool. H has to get used to being around you too. Sounds like he is not making an effort to be secretive, s it may not be anything. Right now, I would not let this get to you. You want to project confidence (i.e., attractiveness) to him, not neediness (is that even a word?). The rest will follow.
Glad to see you are enjoying The Five LL's. I thought it was a great book as well.
Good luck. Keep it up.
Hope sucks!! *grinning* It's so much harder to be here at H's place now that I have hope because it just intensifies all of the *wanting*. I'm in a pretty good place with it, but needed a mini-vent.
I've been working on job stuff most of the day, took kidlet out for lunch and I have to go out in an hr or two because I told H I would pick up milk and lettuce. May also try to time it so I'm not here when he gets home. I'm wearing jeans and my favorite shirt, a lace and velvet number that he's complimented before. I'm debating changing into a dress before he gets home. My hair and make up are done and I've got my game face on.
Confident, attractive, upbeat - but not needy or pursuing.
Kidlet mentioned that they'd had a picnic with the OW in between my visits, so H is probably in somewhat of a quandary and better armed against my wiles than he was last visit. Poo! But hey, I know what I've got to offer and it's a darn good package.
Also - and I could use some input on this one - last time our D papers were kicked back (early Feb.), they mailed them here to H's house instead of to me. Really bad move on their part. Anyway, I took them and put them in my car. I doubt he would do this, but that little niggling voice said he could do something like forge my sig. and finalize the darn thing behind my back.
I want to file a dismissal, but if I do, doesn't it put me at a disadvantage if he then files himself? He also wants kidlet to live with him and got to school up here if I don't have a job here by the time school starts. I'm not so sure I want to agree to that, either, in part because if we do proceed to D, it weakens my position.
I *might* agree to it if he gave me his word that he would not proceed with divorce for one full year. Might... I do still have some concerns re: parenting. Kidlet regularly stays up til 10 pm, sometimes 11, H lets him sleep in his clothes and for supper last night (before I got here) the child apparently nuked himself 3 TV dinners. H was home, but working on a free lance project. I don't know how often that happens - box meals, that is. The rest of the food in the house is decently healthy, natural stuff.
Has anyone filed a dismissal? Does H have to sign it or just me? Anyone got input on how this might affect me if he files something himself?
For the record, his mother has said that if he ever gets back with me, she will write him out of the will. Can you believe that? He didn't tell me, my FIL did, though FIL also told me he's not sure she actually would plus he implied that if she tried, he wouldn't let it happen. My MIL is controlling and manipulative, so one of the other issues we face/d in the M was that he caved to her pretty often, including things like letting her exclude me from my own son's birthday dinner.
Has anybody noticed that this whole DBing thing can induce the world's biggest case of analysis-paralysis?? I'm sitting here wryly laughing at myself because I couldn't figure out if I should change out of my jeans and pretty blouse into a summer sundress I brought.
I didn't always look good for him, so putting on the dress is a 180.
But isn't that pursuing?? I'll wear the jeans...
But I'm supposed to look and feel like I'm on top of the world - attractive and confident - so I'll wear the dress.
But what if that makes him feel pressured???
AAARRRRGH!!! LOL!
I'm wearing the dang dress because I hear that no matter how much you males give lipservice to all this gender-equity hoopla, what you really like is for a woman to look like a woman.
Besides, I feel sexy in this dress, and as long as I'm not doing my Eartha Kitt impression while lounging in the doorway, I think it'll be ok.
If I'm over the line, somebody set me straight quick cuz he'll be home soon.
ok, so...
H came home and we made dinner together, very interactively. In fact, when he pulled in to the driveway, I was out on the deck looking at the ocean. He walked up behind me with the plate of hamburger patties I'd made to thank me for preparing them for him. Startled me so hard I jumped.
I get a gold star for not doing or saying the obvious when he asked me if I could please grab the buns. *grin*
I particularly noticed that he sought me out where I was in the house, and physically came to me to thank me for something. Good sign.
I was particularly bubbly and he remarked, "That means you're happy." I agreed.
He did not compliment me on my appearance, hug me, or touch me in anything but an accidental manner. Our fingertips touched when I offered him a strawberry out of the fruit salad I was making. Things still don't seem quite as warm as last trip (I got several hugs last trip), but I think they're warmer than yesterday. If there had been a hug, a kiss or an "I love you" sprinkled into our evening, I don't think anyone would have known there was anything wrong between us.
There aren't enough bar stools for everyone to eat at the bar, so he invited me to sit on the couch with him, which I did. I mirrored his body positions while we ate and talked. After we finished dinner, he said he was going to go work on his game and I told him to have fun. He said some other little thing about it and I started to ask a question, but stopped myself. He sat back down and asked me to go on. This resulted in about 45 mins of sitting and talking. It felt really great. It was.... *drumroll* QUALITY TIME!!
Eventually, he brought the convo to an end (that really should have been me, huh?) and went to his computer to work on his project. There was praise and appreciation expressed from both of us to the other for different things we'd done that day. Oh - and he proactively asked about my day, including questions drawing me out!
So, how do I feel about him going to his computer? Well, dagnabit, I want MORE of him. But I have to say, the 1.5 hrs or so including dinner was really great. If there had been a bit of physical affection or ILY sprinkled in, it would have been everything I've ever wanted from him (at least until kidlet goes to bed!).
I did knee-jerk about it a bit, just cuz he's ignored me for the computer a LOT in our M, but I'm working hard to put it all in the context of where we are NOW, not where were were in the bad times. And for where we are now, we had a pretty amazing evening.
In fact, it's taking a fair amount of self-control not to pin him to the wall and administer one of those 'scorched earth, take no prisoners' kisses Kettricken mentioned a bit ago.
Alas, I shall have to go outside, lay in the hammock and count shooting stars instead. It's COLD out there you see, and taking a shower now would be a tad out of character for me, plus it would ruin my hair.
Dia, I think you are going great! I admire your hard work.
About the dress.....I think it is a shame the female population has resorted to wearing mostly pants. (Which I am just as bad.
) My dad said something one time that I always remembered. He said that no matter how great a woman looked in a pair of slacks, it never would replace what a dress did for her. You said it…..men like to see us in skirts. I think we have to act more like ladies by the way we walk, sit, etc. It all seems to fall together. I am also of the opinion that when we “look” feminine that we will act feminine. When we “look” our best, we will act our best.
Telling your H “thanks” is a wonderful way to show appreciation. I did not realize how badly I had gotten away from doing that until my S & his W stayed with us for a while. My DIL is the sweetest girl you would ever meet! She is always telling my S “thanks” and it caused me to realize how I was not doing that with my own H. The young lady taught the old one in that case…..lol. It is a form of praise (I think)….at least it is appreciation and that ranks very high on men’s “needs” list.
Good job!
Dia,
If there had been a hug, a kiss or an "I love you" sprinkled into our evening, I don't think anyone would have known there was anything wrong between us.
I understand, b/c my sitch, and many other's here, is the same.
Sandi, as usual, is absolutely correct. You are doing great. You SOUND positive, and it sounds like you know what and what not to do. Keep it up.
Poor H. He's really conflicted. (And don't I know how that feels!)
Last night he was listening to music while he worked on his computer. I heard a bit of it from the bathroom and came closer to ask what it was because it was so pretty. I listened to a few more bars and he told me the name of the artist, then I went back to my own pursuits.
This morning, the kidlet wanted a particular breakfast that I make. He asked his dad for it, but H didn't know what he was talking about so I explained it was a Mom thing and offered to make it. H ate cereal, so I made the Mom breakfast for just kidlet and me and then made coffee. H ate his cereal in the sun on the front porch while he worked out some programming stuff on a notepad. I did get a nice hug this morning, but I asked for it.
Later in the morning he told me that a co-worker of his was having a 'shindig' and that he would be taking kidlet unless kidlet objected. It was clear that I was not invited, so I said, "Cool! I have plenty of job stuff to do so go and have a good time." Unfortunately, when he told kidlet about said event, kidlet assumed all three of us were going. I suppose I should have let H explain why but that occurred to me after I'd explained that only he and his dad would be going because Dad felt it would be awkward for me to go. Kidlet was disappointed, but H will have to deal with that. It's probably too early for social integration on that level anyways.
So, back to the music thing... He just walked over, rummaged through his CDs and handed one to me. It's the music I liked from last night. He also found the individual case and showed it to me so I'd know what it looked like in case I wanted to buy it. Not only was this proactive and very thoughtful of him, but the music itself... It's really pretty.
It's New Age-y, reminiscent of Enya, but with some hints of brazilian jazz and even some rythm and percussion you'd find in bellydance music. This is *precisely* the kind of music we make love to. In fact, when I first heard it, I felt a huge pang because I knew it was love-making music and I wondered if he was playing it because he was thinking of her.
But if it was special to *them*, he wouldn't have made an effort to give it to me to listen to... would he?
And here's the conflicted part - I thanked him after he handed to me and he turned away, unable to meet my eyes. He really needed a hug at that point but I wasn't sure I should have offered one. I didn't think the time was right to acknowledge the painful moment?
So he'll have some time away today, probably until after dinner and maybe as late as bedtime. Hopefully this will give him some time to get his game face on. Me, I'm pretty unflappable atm. I'm wearing a long, gauzy skirt and a black peasant blouse thanks to sandi's comments re men and skirts.
I also think I've sussed out the issue of whether or not I'm a WAW. I'm not. I almost was, but the walk-out button was triggered by his affair, not by WAW issues. I had actually made the decision to stay and try when the affair came to light, and I really feel it was that and not the other stuff, not even the alcohol, that made me leave.
Here's another conundrum re: WAW vs 180s. The old me was withdrawn, tense and actively avoidant. Doing a 180 from that means *seeking* his company and/or indicating a desire for it. But that's pursuing, and the potential WAS atm is him. I guess it's a balancing act, right? Still, makes it really hard to know what to do, how far to go, etc. I will continue winging it and playing by ear.
Yesterday while I was out, I stopped into a candyshop, the kind where they make chocolates, fudge, etc on the premesis. I bought a stick of rock candy for the kidlet and about 4 pc of choc. covered honeycomb for H. Honeycomb was a childhood favorite of his, and I got sugar free because he has reactive hypoglycemia. He marvelled a bit that it was honeycomb, but overall the gift fell a bit flat. I didn't give it to him in person; I left it on his bed. I thought giving it directly might be too much pressure. At any rate, whether it was pressure, or whether it was that he just doesn't relate that much to gifts, I won't be doing that again.
Here's a link to the album. Amazon has some short clips if anyone is interested.
http://www.amazon.com/Seven-Seas-Marcome/dp/B0000065GE
I did get a nice hug this morning, but I asked for it.
Would it do any good to tell you that is pursuing and it pushes him away from you? So is the gift buying. Not that that was much, but it is still pursing. You do so good and give excellent advice to other posters. I hope you can tighten your belt and try hard not to chase after H.....
Yes, it would. As I said, this is a balancing act and I'm struggling between the 180 part and the not pursuing part.
Thanks.
Ok, I'm buckling my seatbelt and pulling down the shoulder restraints for the roller-coaster ride. After spending a few hours on his computer, H is suddenly warmer to me, seeking contact and he brought up how that CD sounds so much like Enigma, Enya etc, naming off all of our LM music. He didn't mention the LM aspect but sheesh, it's got to be going through his mind. I didn't mention the connection either, but made agreeable noises, talked about how the Arabic rhythms reminded me of my bellydance music.
There are also large undercurrents of physical affection. We have cats, and whenever the cat is sitting by me, he reaches out to stroke the cat. In fact, we both found ourselves petting the cat at the same time, just different sides of the cat. Hilarious, really, if it wasn't a bit sad, too.
Meanwhile, I've scheduled an appt for a haircut today. I need to look professional for the job interviews, plus I needed to have 'stuff' scheduled to take me out of the house, GAL, etc.
Ok, so I've seen Retrouvaille mentioned in several posts and always in a positive light. H and I both have Catholic roots though we're not practicing Catholics anymore. Anyhow, I've looked at the Retro site before but today I decided to check if there were any dates in our area. What I saw darn near freaked me out.
The date for our town is directly on our 15th wedding anniversary. The Universe is speaking.
Unfortunately, there's no way in heck that we're at a point I could ask him to go.
If you don't ask, then the answer is 100% "no". Just tell him what a coincidence it is! Maybe you won't get a yes this time. But you will plant the seed of an idea. Besides, there is too much emphasis on the idea of going to Retrouvaille for reconciliation. That is not what they work on. They work on thinking about what you want out of your life and improving communication between spouses. The 50% reconciliation rate is a happy byproduct of the process.
Dia, thanks again for your "critter" post on my thread. Last night, I caught up on your situation (so many threads, so little time). sounds like you're doing very well. I understand the juggling between 180 and pursuing, but I do agree with Sandi that it seems weighted toward the pursuing side a bit.
But, hey, DBing is constant, minor, course-correcting...
I think it is a shame the female population has resorted to wearing mostly pants.
My other pet peeve is so many husbands, fathers,
men dressing like little boys!
Ok, I'm done. I feel better now
Another gem my dad said was, "If women knew how much better wearing high heels made their legs look....they would wear them all the time!"
I have struggled HARD today. Up. Down. Up. Down. UpDown.
Got a haircut and wonder of wonders - it's a good cut. Was nice to get fussed over/pampered by the stylist, too.
Good things - H gave me positive affirmation today, showed interest in me and my doings and took effort to bring me a CD of some music I said I liked.
I was easy-breezy about them leaving to go to the party w/o me - "Have a good time!" But it hurt and it hurt kinda hard. After they left I crumpled and wanted to have a good cry. And just to add to the whole roller-coaster feeling, I've also been experiencing strong desire for him today, too.
So I went out to look at another apt. 2 beds, 2 ba plus loft. Two small patios, washer/dryer in the unit. Ample closet space, fireplace and enough room in the living/dining area that one doesn't feel cramped. 2 car garage. 1500 sq. ft. Downsides are freeway noise you can hear even with the windows closed, the appliances are late 70s vintage (do they even make Tappan anymore?) and the rent is more than I'd like to spend at $1950/month.
It's main competitor is a much smaller place that also has 2 beds/2 ba. That one has coin laundry, a *tiny* living/dining area, a tiny balcony and a spiral staircase that will be absolute murder for trying to get beds and dressers upstairs. It's maybe 850 sq.ft. and there's no garage just a parking structure with one floor covered and one floor uncovered parking. No assigned spots either. This second one back to open space with hiking trails tho, and there's no freeway noise. Might be walkable to the beach, and I saw people walking dogs, kids on bikes, etc. That one is asking $1700.
After I toured the condo, I felt a lot better so I came home and made chili. H said the event included a BBQ so they likely wouldn't be home for dinner. I will have supper myself and really power down on some job hunting. I need to get ready with a list of employment agencies to visit Monday. H telecommutes on Monday so I need to be out and 'busy'.
It's a viable option but I can't move on it w/o having the job nailed down.
Looks like you have had a good day Dia.
I know how you feel about not being invited to the party/BBQ. A week or two after W dropped the bomb on me, she took the kids on a trip to Disney - without me. WOW, that hurt. She said me going would just "confuse things."
And, it came on the day after I took our D5 to the ER at our children's hospital for a heart issue she has. As if I wasn't down enough already, then D having problems. I wondered how much I could take. And I'm still here.
Anyway, I am glad you had a good day. I saw that you were considering bringing up Retrouville (sp?). Good idea, I just wonder about the timing. I don't know, but is it too soon where you and H are? Only you know the answer. I'm just giving you my concern. You don't want to do too much too soon.
Yeah, I think it's too soon. It's more than a month away so I'll sit on it for awhile.
I'm doing ok at present, working on my job stuff, eating chili (not cake
)and watching Henry V.
I think I was posting to your thread while you were posting to mine.
Watching Britcoms on PBS with W and kids - our Sat. night tradition. At least that part is normal.
So H and kidlet didn't get home til 10:30 ish. After the party, they went shopping and to a bookstore. Kidlet had lots of good loot, including new shoes, a boogie board, a swim shirt and several books. I was a little worried that I'd have to work hard not to be snarky because I was hurt about being excluded. But when I saw the, I was instantly so happy that it wasn't an issue at all.
Kidlet was cold and wanted hot chocolate and H seemed to *want* to talk, share stories of their afternoon, show me what he'd bought for the kidlet etc. At one point, he came around the bar and stood close enough to brush against me so he could show me pictures on his iPhone. Our hands touched when he put the device into my hands then showed me which button to push to see a short video clip from the party.
Then H declared it was bedtime, so he asked kidlet what book he wanted. Kidlet picked one of the new books and suggested that instead of reading in his bed (one or the other of us reads to him every night), that we sit on the couch so all three of us could be together. H and I readily agreed, sitting with kidlet cuddled in the middle. Kidlet pulled a blanket over us and remarked how good it felt for all three of us to be sitting close like that. (I did NOT coach him - I swear! ... but there may be a surprise hot fudge sundae in his future, you know - just because)
When it was decided that H should do the reading, kidlet suggested that Dad sit in the middle so that he and I could hear equally but H declined and said we were fine like we were.
As a former WAS, I don't think I would have talked so readily or put myself in a sitch for the accidental touches, so that stuff seems promising. But he didn't want to sit next to me onthe couch, so bleh.
H also noticed that I had done the dishes and thanked me.
Baby steps.
Appreciate the small stuff.
Patience.
(and I really do value the small stuff, I'm just struggling with wanting more, or at least a clear indicator of where we stand. I'm also reaping karma tho, so I guess I hafta take my lumps.)
Dia,
It sounds like you handled this very well. Just remember (and in the back of my head, a little voice says "pot, calling kettle") NO EXPECTATIONS. NONE.
(and I really do value the small stuff, I'm just struggling with wanting more, or at least a clear indicator of where we stand. I'm also reaping karma tho, so I guess I hafta take my lumps.)
Wanting more IS EXPECTATIONS, and it's something I, too, struggle with. And it will sap your strentgh and make you nuts. B/c this process is going to take a while. I am not saying it is wrong or unexpected to want more.
So, I'm not criticizing you. I'm just identifying something that can create problems for you that is something with which I also battle.
It was Puppy who said yesterday "Slow and steady wins the race."
You are doing great, just keep it slow. Think marathon, not sprint.
Thanks, for this, GIMA. I reinforced the message by writing it in my journal as well.
Morning updates:
H woke up looking bleary eyed and acting conflicted. I made coffee and gave him space. I heard him quietly telling the kidlet that "You and I are going to the D-'s house for Sunday breakfast." Kidlet asked if I would be coming and he said no. Initially, I was hurt again because the D-'s are/were good family friends to both of us and I really loved their regular Sunday breakfasts. I kept my game face on and didn't react. Sip coffee, read book.
So then H came over and sat on the couch with me. "There's a breakfast at the D-'s this morning and I wanted to talk to you about it. I was thinking it would be awkward if you went but I didn't want you to feel left out."
I said it would be fine if he and kidlet went by themselves. I'd love to see the D-'s but I'd be perfectly happy staying home if my being there would ruin the breakfast for him by making things things tense.
"So you want to go, then?" he asked. I said yes, I'd like to go, but I'd be happy either way. I wouldn't be angry or upset with him if they went alone, and if I went I'd just enjoy the morning and not take it as any sort of 'sign'.
He sort of tried to say it would be the D-'s who would feel awkward, but I said I'd seen Mrs. D on my last trip and things seemed perfectly comfortable. I reiterated that it was ok either way. Then he invited me to go! And after telling kidlet pretty directly that I wouldn't be going.
We had a great time with the D-'s, told stories, laughed and everything was perfectly comfortable. After breakfast, we sat on their back patio, chatted, read the paper while the kids played in the garden and hot tub. Toward the end, there was talk about the the D-'s taking their kids to the beach and kidlet wanted to go, too. H turned right to me and asked if I wanted to come.
I actually begged off because I have job apps and essays to write, but one of the D-'s said that a certain person would be at the beach who would be a great contact for me, lots of friends in my field, etc. D suggested that I go home to work on my job stuff and if that person was down at the beach, he'd call me so I could come down to network.
On the walk back to the house, kidlet ran ahead while H and I chatted lightly about various gardens we were passing, somebody's house for sale, etc. The only reference I made to the breakfast was to say "That was fun." He said "Yes, it was."
And then when we got back to the house, he looked at me sort of like it was the first time he'd seen me all day and remarked that he really liked my blouse. He's seen it and complimented it before, but this is the first compliment on how I look that he's given me this trip. There were several last trip, but just the one so far this time.
I'm completely amazed. I have to not get my hopes up, tho. I know he will contract again after this - I just don't know how soon or how hard.
BTW, I know I've cut way back on posting to other people's threads. It's not lack of interest - it's having to keep the DB site under wraps. I will get back to all of you when I leave here. Thank you for all of your support and kindness!!
Sounds like it went well and, most importantly, you handled it well - perfectly really, right down to not going to the beach.
Great job. He will contact again. Just let him drive the boat on that.
Dia,
I'm just about to nod off for the night (22:30 in Cape Town).
I'm so happy to have a good story (yours) to go to sleep with.
You did good.
Mac
Dia,
Just an observation: you seem to be really wrapped up in how your every action and reaction will affect your H. I understand that DBing is done with the thought of saving your R, but it won't work if you're just doing things to save the R.
I haven't heard anything about you doing fun GAL things for yourself. Are you spending time with friends in H's town while you're there? Or going to places that you enjoy?
First and foremost DBing is about making you a better person regardless of the outcome.
I'm happy that things seem to be going well for you, just want you to be sure of your motivations.
Hi, Pearl,
Yep, I'm doing my GAL stuff, too, including job hunting, looking for apartments, cooking, reading, seeing movies, visiting places I like (by myself), etc.
The reason for the play-by-play is as much for myself as for you guys because I have a tendency to read too much into the negative stuff and discount the good stuff. Writing it down forces me to process the good and helps me keep my PMA. It also helps me observe and keep track of what works and what doesn't.
Cheers!
Dia
oooooh! H just walked by eating the last piece of the chocolates I bought him. He came over and extended the chocolate (already with a small bite out of it) for me to taste. The gesture suggested that he wanted me to nibble it from his fingers, but on the off chance that isn't what he intended, I delicately took it from him, took a little bite and gave it back. I'd never tasted choc. covered honeycomb before and I was also worried that if it was hard to bite through or gooey-messy that I'd end up gnawing/slurping on his fingers in a totally un-sexy way.
Still tho - wow. *glowing*
And we're going out for pizza tonight to my favorite pizza place!
I'm on freaking cloud 9. Don't anybody dare pinch me. If this is a dream, I'm staying in it.
Sounds very positive Dia. You're doing a wonderful job.
Unfortunately, we all know that chances are H will pull back soon. I know you've mentioned that so it's good that you'll anticipate it although I don't think we're ever ready for it.
All the best,
Cas
Good morning all!
I'll be out doing job stuff most of the day so probably won't be posting. I'm in a great mood but yeah, expecting a pullback any minute now.
When it hits, I'll ride it out.
Cheers!
Dia
Ride 'em cowgirl.
With an attitude like that you can't fail
Mac
Rough day, lots of roadblocks though mostly related to jobs and apartments, not H. Reached out to a few friends, people I thought were 'both of our' friends but have found doors slammed in my face, metaphorically speaking. It's been enough to get me down to where I feel like the universe is against me, it will never work, etc.
Time to take a walk and fix my attitude.
Time to talk a walk and fix my attitude.
Great idea!
Keep your head up. The job issue is a WHOLE easier to fix than our M's. Dwell on the positives from the weekend. Use them as the motivation to achieve more.
Quick check in...
Lots more job stuff for me today - busy, busy. H is off to work and my FIL is here to watch the kidlet. Things between H and I are easy, comfortable and growing warmer. He touched me ever so lightly on the shoulder yesterday, and we had some very warm, companionable time both reading under a blanket on the couch together. We were listening to that CD I mentioned earlier, and when it stopped, he grabbed the remote to make it play through again - that's a bit unlike him, and it seemed to be a positive sign. I was writing in my journal and I tore a page out to write him a little love note. Nothing too heavy, just a hand-drawn image of a candle flame and the words 'warm - how I'm feeling about you.' I folded it origami style and he asked what I was doing. "Seat of my pants origami" was the reply. By the time I got it all folded, a few things had interrupted the moment so I put it in my pocket. I'm sure he was wondering what it was.
This morning, he came and tucked the blankets around me on the couch and tucked a stuffed bunny in with me - very sweet. I sleepily told him there was a note for him in the pocket of my jeans in the closet. He found it, then came back to sit on the arm of the couch with his feet tucked under the edge of my blanket. He likes the intricacy and mystery of complexly folded notes, and regular love-notes were part of our courtship. In college, even if we didn't see each other on campus, we always found the other one's car and left love notes under the wipers or slipped through the windows we left open a bit for ventilation.
When he got it open, he gave a very melty "Awwwwwwww!" Then he cooed a bit over the calligraphy, the drawing style, etc. There was the barest suggestion of a heart shape in the middle of the candle flame. I really wanted to tell him ILY, but the note was as far as I was willing to go.
ok, so what's between LRT and Piecing? I'm not sure we're precisely in LRT anymore but we're not in Piecing either. I have been walking a fine line between not pursuing and trying to fill his love tank. And yeah, the note was pure pursuing - but it *worked*. And some of the other small things I've done have been working, too.
So at the moment, filling the love tank drop by drop seems to be working. He's responding and warming to me. I can't push it too fast but I feel pretty strongly that some of the DB techniques will make him feel rejected and unwanted...
Don't mind me... just my usual flailing about.
I think I'm doing pretty well all things considered - but suggestions and knocks upside the head are always welcome!
Welcome to limboland. I am the nwly appointed mayor!
All kidding aside, sounds like we are at the same plave. My struggle now is not pushing too hard.
but I feel pretty strongly that some of the DB techniques will make him feel rejected and unwanted
I agree with you from the bottom of my heart.
It take a huge leap of faith. And then you realize that this "stuff" isn't just created for an audience. It's made up of wonderful people who have been there, done that.
I've just this morning started doing something that I just knew was against every fiber of my being. And made it through the day. And thought about it. And ruminated. And finally saw that it was the right thing to do.
That doesn't mean blindly following the "plan". Just give it a little time. Have patience. See if it works. Take that leap of faith.
Hugs to you and yours Dai.
I'm going off now to vote for GIMA.
You know Alaska is up for grabs mate?
A very patriotic Mac
I can't push it too fast but I feel pretty strongly that some of the DB techniques will make him feel rejected and unwanted...
Like what specifically? If you can understand and think thru the techniques it helps and you might be right in your feelings. So think thru it first, bounce ideas off here if you have reservations.
Cheers
Hi, Coach,
It has to do with initiating/not initiating, I think. Example: In the DB mindset, initiating, whether it's initiating (or asking for) a hug, walking over to sit on the couch with him, asking for something that sounds like a date, writing that love note - all of that has to do with initiating signs of interest/love/affection, which looks like pursuit. DB says "don't pursue - it drives them away". In my sitch, it appears that gentle, low-pressure 'pursuit' is drawing him in.
What works (in my sitch) from DB is all of the stuff about being upbeat, looking great, agreeing, GAL etc. But one of our problems was a complete breakdown of initiation on both sides. Both of us were so afraid to be hurt, that we stopped reaching out to each other - with the predictable effect that we both just felt more and more hurt, unwanted, unloved, etc.
So it seems to me, that I need to show him there's cheese in this tunnel. The conundrum is how to give him tantalizing whiffs of cheese without letting whole wheel roll over him and crush him.
Example: with the origami note, a straight out "I love you" might have been too much, and therefore scary to him. But simply saying I felt warm... He was touched, he glowed. So it's a dance of quantity and timing. I also made sure it was an 'I" statement, something he can't argue with, and something that didn't pressure for a response.
I don't have the DB book with me, so I can't cite chapter and verse. I didn't want to risk leaving it out and him finding it, so I left it back home.
Another example - There's a pizza place I really love up here and before I go home, I really wanted to have some of their pizza. Yes, I could go by myself or take the kidlet, but I also wanted all of us to go. So while we were discussing what to do for dinner, I said "You know, I'd like some Rusty's at some point while I'm here. I can't cover the whole thing, but I could cover half. Eat-in or delivery, either one would be fine."
Him: Rusty's delivers?
Me: Yep.
Him(very decisive and enthusiastic): Let's do it!
If you look at my wording very carefully, I never asked him what he wanted, nor did I ask if we could go out for pizza. Those are yes/no options where yes could seem like a capitulation, giving in, letting me control him, doing something just because *I* want it, etc. The very low-key phrasing seems to be taking the pressure out of it for him.
Am I making any sense?
More thoughts...
Here's what's been guiding my actions. In somebody's thread, I read that their DB coach asked them "If you knew, if you absolutely knew for certain, that in 30 days H would be home, loving you and wanting the marriage to work, how would that change things for you?"
I think the thing the coach is after is for the fear-based begging/pleading/demanding to stop. But for me, it goes a lot further than that.
If I knew...
I wouldn't be afraid, I wouldn't feel rejected or unwanted, I would be happy, hopeful, open, playful and loving.
Would I obsess about about the OW, snoop through his stuff or fret myself to death every time there was a call on his cell? Nope, because she'll be gone in 30 days. Ergo, she's no threat.
Would I go to a movie (by myself), get a hair cut, try new makeup, new recipes, go for a walk on the beach (alone) etc.? Yep, because even if he wants some space right now, there will be plenty of time for 'together stuff' in 30 days.
Would I wash the dishes for him, take his glasses to be fixed or bring him coffee in the morning? You betcha!
Would I relax and enjoy time without fretting/being disappointed/wanting more (in a bad or pouty way). Yep - because 'more' is just around the corner. Abundance mentality!
Would I flirt a bit. Yep!
Would I do sweet little things like leaving love notes, chocolates, etc. Yep.
Would I take the chance of offering affection, such as holding his hand or a touch on the shoulder? Yes, I would. If he rejects it, it's fine. It will all be ok in 30 days so I can be patient and take the small rejections if there are any.
Would I ML if he seemed interested? Yep!!
So this 30 day thing takes all the fear out of things for me. No fear = confidence! No fear = freedom to express love.
In the DR book, it says that when you're considering your actions, you should ask yourself if the thing you're considering will move your R ahead or set it back. Ok, well - sometimes I don't know! Will this love note move us ahead or set us back? I have no freakin' clue.
What's working better for me is to ask myself if I would do this if I *knew* he would be back in 30 days. If the answer's yes, then I ask if it's too much, too soon or it the timing is bad. If *that* answer is yes, I ask myself if I can tone it down or hold it for a better time. Would I write this love note if I knew he'd be back in 30 days? Hell yes! Is it too much, too soon? Hmm, yeah, probably. Can I tone it down? Yes, I can.
It may not be textbook DB, but it's working.
If it works keep it.
Detaching is letting go of the outcome. So if you knew....... that you will be fine no matter what the outcome, how would you act?
One little question got all that thinking in motion. Cool.
Cheers
See, knowing that I would be fine either way is no different for me than knowing he would be back in 30 days. That almost sounds ridiculous because the outcomes are so different, but they're effectively the same - I'll be fine.
Thanks, Coach!
Since my printer died, H is printing out several copies of my resume at his work today and bringing them home for me. I thanked him in email, but prepared and waiting for him when he gets home is an origami thank you note. The words are simple - "Thank you for printing my resumes" but there's a little pic of him in a Superhero pose holding a sheaf of resumes and the paper is folded into a Hawaiian shirt - which is what he wears to work.
I like writing the note, drawing the pic, then doing the folding because you never know where/how much of the message will show. It adds interest and gives a nice incentive to unfold the thing to get to the 'prize'.
If the vibe is off when he gets home, I will just keep the note. Then again, if the vibe is off b/c he had a bad day at work, this might turn it around for him.
Ok, really *wierd* interaction.
H, kidlet, FIL and I were all sitting on the floor cleaning up a Monopoly game after all playing together. H was chatting to his dad about the possibility of getting his eyes lasered, something H had chatted to me about earlier since his glasses broke earlier this week. FIL said that choosing a Dr. is pretty important, so H should ask around for recommendations from people who have had it done.
And H glibly responded with, "Oh, OW's mother knows a few of the doctors in town I can check with her." The conversation continued between the two of them after that, but I confess that I didn't hear a word they said. After the shock wore off - a minute or three, I excused myself to the deck and said I wanted to look at the stars before bed.
Just about every emotion imaginable hit me - hurt, humiliation, jealousy, rage, wanting to quit, wanting to pack up right then and there, take kidlet and drive 200 miles back to my Mom's, wanting to write to OW and tell her to back the F%&@#* away from my husband - you name it. So I laid there in the hammock for maybe 10, 15 minutes, got my game face back on and went back inside.
The game was put away, FIL was in the shower and kidlet wanted to be read to before bed. H was trying to make some eye contact but the vibe was sort of awkward - not sure if it was him or me, probably both. We sat on the couch and read to kidlet, then H tucked him in.
When H came out, I asked if I could speak to him for a moment. My tone was soft, compassionate (I thought) and fairly matter of fact. This is what I said.
"I feel hurt and humiliated when you talk about Robin in front of me. The old Dia would have kept it inside and let it fester. The new Dia will tell you about it. I'm not going to be pissy or b*^%$y about it - but I am going to let you know."
Ok, that alone is a huge 180 because I'm non-confrontational to the point where it's harmful to me. I was so afraid he'd get angry, tell me to leave, etc.
He didn't.
He apologized.
He said it was an accident, it just slipped out and there was nothing he could do about it right in the moment w/o calling more attention to it.
Then he hesitantly touched me on the shoulder... and pulled me into a hug.
I am stunned speechless.
Anybody care to tell me what the heck just happened? And was I right to say something, or did I just make a huge DB mistake?
P.S. Anybody want to put money on the contraction happening as soon as we wake up tomorrow? *eye roll*
And as far as taking the kidlet, getting in the car and leaving, that's what I did when the A with my best friend came to light and it was a mistake. So at least I appear to have learned something?
Rats. I accidentally typed her name instead of OW and I can't edit b/c the time window expired. If a mod sees it, could you kindly change it to OW instead? (Guess it's slipping out everywhere tonight, eh?)
K, I don't know if that was "good DBing" or not ... but from an authentic human standpoint, I think you handled it beautifully. I would just leave it lie now, but I think you done good.
(speaking as someone only-too-familiar with being non-confrontational to the point of outright dysfunction)
Dia,
If this is a boundary issue for you, then you handled it well.
How did you handle your conflicts before problems with M? Did you confront them or avoid them? Just asking to tell if whether your setting this boundary (and I think I would set the same one) is the same old, same old or a 180 - in your H's eyes.
I have to give you the same warning you guys have given me and I am sure will again. The weekend you had sounded great. And it was filled with progress. Just be very careful not to allow those wonderful strides to allow you to have expectations. Having those expectations will set you up fo disappointment (the down part of the roller coaster). They can also cause you to become impatient. You see good signs and you want more, NOW. (Of course, by "you" I mean us all).
Thanks, Kett and GIMA.
Conflicts before I handled with fear and timidity. I held the feelings in, stuffed them down and they festered, breeding anger and resentment. I have always been the peacemaker in my family, the quiet, gentle, diplomatic one. I'm tired of making peace by letting people walk on me, so yes, this is a 180 and a big one at that. No more 'gentle, gentle, gentle, ARMAGEDDON', which is what he wanted, right? LOL I was clear, calm and direct.
I didn't give him an order or tell him what to do (e.g. Don't mention her in front of me.) I told him how I feel when he does. Now he gets to make the choice about his own behavior, and in that choice, we learn something of his character.
I have two interviews today, my game face is on and I will be doing my best to act as if nothing happened.
I hear you re: expectations.
Dia,
Don't gt me wrong. You ARE doing great - you are sooooo much further along than I was at your point in your fight.
Keep it up and good luck on the interviews.
Oh, no - I didn't take anything you said amiss at all.
This morning went ok. We chatted pretty much as per usual this morning though I would say it was a bit less warm than the previous days. Natural and to be expected.
I have two interviews today, and I'm going to try to see an apartment. Depending on exactly how the day goes, I will leave either this evening or tomorrow morning. I may be back Monday or Tuesday though as several of the jobs I've been applying for will interview next week.
Here's my conundrum - should I attempt to leave before he gets home? I don't want it look look like I left in a huff, but after the great time we've had, it's probably productive to give him the opportunity to miss me, reflect on things, etc.
Most likely, I'm over-analyzing and I'll just let my schedule dictate and play it by ear.
When I leave, I plan to go dark a bit so that he has the opportunity to initiate contact.
First interview went well, but it was with a headhunter and not an interview for an actual job.
I could really use some reassurance that there will be some more good times with H, that this was a bump in the road, etc. Yes, I know that no one can guarantee that, but c'mon - LIE TO ME!!
Or maybe tell me some hopeful stories from your own experiences??
Thanks!
Dia
Help me out here, folks...
Why, after all of the very positive interactions this weekend, did the one wierd/negative one throw me for such a loop?
Has anyone else experienced this?
Off to my 2nd interview today.
Dia, you give such excellent advice to others. But when I go read your thread it almost sounds like a different person behind the computer. Maybe that old saying of how we are too close to our own problems to see the answer is true.
Don't fret over the firt job interveiw b/c you would not want to work for a boss like that! It will all work together. Just believe in yourself and know that you can do whatever you set your mind about.
Oh, and remember that men love confident women!
Dia,
Yes, your feelimgs are very common. Yes, I have experienced the same. I think they come about b/c we get on what we think is a roll of good things. So, when the stop (unexpectedly for us) the reality smacks us in the face. Its also a result of having expectations and not having patience. Oh, and it means you still care.
Those are the same things I have experienced. Don't dwell on the one or two negatives that came after a bunch of positives.
Thanks, Sandi and GIMA.
Ok, folks, on to another thorny issue. I have about two weeks before a decision has to be made about who the kidlet will live with and where he will go to school. Obviously, I would prefer that the kidlet lives with me even thought I'm open to very liberal visitation. The one area where H and I are still aways apart is parenting standards. While visiting, I have let H run the show and have not interfered even if I see something that bugs me, such as kidlet staying in/sleeping in the same set of clothes for 2-3 days at a time.
If kidlet is with me, there is much more structure and routine. Baths, brushing teeth, a regular bedtime, etc. I think it's ok to let him stay up late every now and then, and hey, I've spent the day in my jammies on occasion, too, but 3 days in the same clothes, staying up til 10 or 11 every night and no toothbrush is way beyond my tolerance.
H wants kidlet to live with him. Leaving aside the emotional suffering I'll go through not having my son with me, I think this is a bad idea because of the parenting stuff. The only way I would agree to it is if I was here in the house, too, because then I could ride herd on the hygiene issues myself.
Clearly, H and I need to discuss this, but I'm concerned about it because it will most likely turn into a relationship talk, and because I'm not so sure H is ready to hear that I'm not thrilled with his parenting.
Also, the papers that have already been filed give me full physical custody with joint legal. If I let kidlet live with H, I'm concerned that this undermines me legally and I have no clue what it does if H files. If I dismiss like I'd like to do and then H files, I may appear to be the abandoning spouse.
I could just insist that kidlet stays with me, and that if I don't have a job in time, then we don't move, end of discussion. Or I suppose we could move mid-year if a job comes in then.
Here are the alternatives as I see them - please give me your thoughts.
1) Kidlet and I stay down south. H gets the same ol visitation he's always had. Possibly, I cold come up for visitation weekends and we could maybe continue this DBing stuff. IMHO, this option will most likely lead to a completed divorce.
2) Kidlet moves in with H and I stay down south either permanently or until I find a job up here. Personally, I loathe this option, though maybe one of you can talk me into it.
3) Kidlet moves in with H and I get a tiny studio/1 bedroom apartment in H's town. I could do this on savings for maybe 6 months w/o a job.
4) Kidlet and I *both* move into a tiny 1 bed apartment up north. (Kid gets the bedroom, mom gets a futon.) Not sure I could afford 2 beds on savings w/o a guaranteed job.
5) Kidlet and I both move into H's house. H and I are roomates/in-house sep, limbo or... moving forward? This has the greatest chance of disrupting H's thing with the OW (eye roll) but may also present risks re: too much, too soon.
I *think* I'm leaning toward #4, but this is a huge risk given the job sitch.
Additionally, H wants to have the child support reduced. If we're married and working on it, maybe - especiallt if we're living in the same house. If we're proceeding toward divorce, so sorry, but that's cake-eating. Our papers say that in return for my not asking for spousal support, child support will never decrease.
What does anyone think?
Cheers,
Dia
Dia, you give such excellent advice to others. But when I go read your thread it almost sounds like a different person behind the computer. Maybe that old saying of how we are too close to our own problems to see the answer is true.
Don't fret over the firt job interveiw b/c you would not want to work for a boss like that! It will all work together. Just believe in yourself and know that you can do whatever you set your mind about.
Oh, and remember that men love confident women!
Ok.... I've been giving this some good thought and yes, I'm probably too close to my own sitch to see clearly. That's probably why I ask for help/advice even when it might seem obvious to others what I should or shouldn't do. Then again, being one of the Venus crowd, sometimes all I want is an ear and a kind word and asking here prevents me from going to H and being all needy.
If I'm in need of a 2x4, please apply it and I will try to listen better. Also, please remember that I've only read about half of the DR book and none of DB. I didn't bring them on the trip so as to prevent 'accidents' in H seeing them. Maybe the good advice on other threads is making me seem better/more knowledgable about this stuff than I really am?
Dia,
Sandi gets right to the point, and she always seems to be dead on.
I completely identify with having difficulty being objective when dealing with your own sitch. By definition, you are an outsider and, therefore, objective, when looking at someone else's sitch. Your own...well, that's different b/c, well, that's ME. You are only human, and this is to be expected.
For someone who has only read half the book, you seem to get it very well. Just realize that as much as you understand, you will have down days and stumble every now and then. Remember, we are mere mortals.
The strength in all this, as I see it, is not in being perfect. Rather, it's in being able to keep going when all looks bleak.
Hang in there and keep going.
Dia
I just finished reading your sitch. Wow !
You mentioned the IE is where you lived a while back. I'm wondering if we weren't neighbors at some point. SOCAL ?
I'm out in the desert, Brave. H is up on the coast north of LA - there was a soap opera named after it awhile back.
We used to live in Riverside.
Re: Love-making and what worked before...
A certain smoldering look en passant.
Playfulness - childlike palyfulness even, like peeking at him shyly (on purpose) from around a corner.
A direct invitation.
Certain suggestive touches. Nothing too graphic, but a certain way of tracing the fingertips along his arm or the curve of his neck.
Definitely certain outfits.
A certain perfume or two.
Certain music - which is why I was making such a big deal about that CD.
Dia
I'm in southwest riverside county. Not to faraway.
Sound like your DBing is working very well.
Have a good night.
Just popped in to catch up Brave,
I see what you mean.
Yow.
Stay strong together.
Mac
A certain smoldering look en passant.
Playfulness - childlike palyfulness even, like peeking at him shyly (on purpose) from around a corner.
A direct invitation.
Certain suggestive touches. Nothing too graphic, but a certain way of tracing the fingertips along his arm or the curve of his neck.
Definitely certain outfits.
A certain perfume or two.
Certain music - which is why I was making such a big deal about that CD.
Dia, you know what to do. Thise things would definitely work for me. One of our big problems was W hardly ever initiated. I have read on the sex starved marriage forum, and that was at work in our M.
I am going back down south today to attend to things there and give H his space back for several days. I have an interview back up here on Weds. and I'm hoping that by the time Weds rolls around, there will be more than one interview.
H gave me a surprisingly warm good-bye hug. It was full body, tight and not reserved at all. He didn't try to end it before I was ready and one of his hand reached up to cup the back of my head and press me to him. It was very much the sort of hug where I would have kissed him and if I'd thought we were ready, I would have. As it is, tho - I decided to play a little hard to get so I didn't.
He initiated the hug, so that means one of my goals for this trip was fully met. He initiated a hug in the sitch where he said OW's name, but that one felt guilt-motivated so I wasn't sure if that met my goal or not. Not trying to be difficult here, but if the goal was for him to initiate an affectionate touch - does a guilt hug count? If it does, then I got two.
I had four goals for this trip, and they were:
1) H indicates with words, actions or facial expressions that he's happy to see me. (Not met, but maybe I just need to look harder.)
2) H initiates interactions with me - talking, phone calls, emails. (Met - several times, several ways.)
3) H invites me to do something even if just a movie on the couch. (Met - he invited me to breakfast at the D-'s.)
4) H initiates affectionate touch. (Met - a touch on the shoulder and one awesome hug.)
Three outta four ain't bad. In fact, it's pretty darn good!
Next time, I think I need to set some goals for things *I* will do as well. This trip I concentrated on raising the level in his love buckets, and I think I did an excellent job. He even got all warm and gooey toward me at times. Note to self: those are NOT times to push. Just let him experience the gooeyness and marvel at it. Let it sink in. If I push then, he will feel pressured and decide I have ulterior motives.
Note to self for next time - it is a turn on for H when I am wearing longish, peasant-style skirts, my belled ankle bracelet and bare feet. Next time, I am going to give myself a pedicure and paint my toenails. I've never done that before - ever. With the bare feet, it will be really noticeable and H might really like it. Will probably paint my fingernails to match.
I'm headed out for the long drive home. I'd like to offer a hearty thank-you to everyone who's supported me while I was here. There were some bumps and struggles for me, but I guess that's normal and overall it was a great trip.
I am considering not contacting him except for absolutely necessary stuff in between now and my next visit. I would like to see if he initiates contact.
Any thoughts?
Dear Dia, you are doing great girl.
I'd be after you if I wasn't already spoken for
Hang on a little bit. Wait patiently. Do what you've been doing.
I'm jealous of your progress
Hugs, prayers and all good things to you and yours.
Mac
Hi, folks!
Made the drive safely, stopped off at the local casino for free food and free money, got groceries and am now remembering why I don't like the desert. It's 40 degrees hotter than where I was this morning!
Thanks for the hugs and prayers Mac. I'll take all of those that I can get.
Oh, and H emailed me at 3:17 this afternoon, though it was just a note about health insurance.
Dia,
Glad you made it back safely.
Keep in mind this is a long journey. You are making progress. Just be patient. If you knew me, you would laugh that I'm telling you to be patient. That's one of the things I have had to work on.
Gee, girl, I`m am so jealous of your progress! Esp with the whole playfulness business!
Sigh!(tis a bleak place in this playfulness wilderness!!)
Enjoy your few days with you and Best of Luck with those interviews!
Thanks, Fallgirl!
I'm back to the gritting-my-teeth-and-sinking-my-nails-into-my-palms grind today tho. After the insurance note from him, I mentioned that if I got the job with the school system, I'd have very good ins that could cover all of us. He wrote back saying thanks, but he wanted to be responsible for his own ins. and he wanted complete financial separation. My response was simply "Re: finances - I understand."
I am sitting on my hands to keep from pursuing. After the weekend, I am feeling incredibly *amorous* and dying to send him a sweetly naughty message in a thank you note for letting me visit.
But I can't.
Must.
Be.
Patient.
And among other setbacks, the Retro weekend on our anniv. is full. There's one 3 weeks after that, tho.
Thanks for the hugs and prayers Mac. I'll take all of those that I can get.
Oh, and H emailed me at 3:17 this afternoon, though it was just a note about health insurance.
Dia, you take these small things and you hold them close to your heart.
I wish I'd get SOMETHING back from the black hole. I have faith that it'll happen.
Don't be disparaged about this that SHOULD have happened. As you say - patience. It's the hardest thing to learn.
Look for the signs. They ARE there. Have faith.
HUGE hugs sweetheart.
You are in my prayers.
Mac
Thanks, Mac,
I suppose on the bright side - he has not mentioned moving forward with the D.
Sigh.
Am on hold with my bank re: my car loan. Have I mentioned how much I hate administrivia?
Ha! Pen pushers and bean counters.
We all know what they will inherit
You hold on there dia
Mac
After the weekend, I am feeling incredibly *amorous* and dying to send him a sweetly naughty message in a thank you note for letting me visit.
DON'T DO IT!!!!
Once I took my cell phone apart and hide the pieces around the house so I couldn't use it impulsively.
It worked.
Cheers
LOL!! I am holding steadfast. But I reserve the right to throw a private temper tantrum about it!
It's not a huge R email, just about health ins. stuff but the tone is so different from "Mr. I'm getting my own insurance and I want complete financial separation."
----------------
Hey Dia,
I'm thinking of going with the Lumenos HSA-compatible plan ($3,000 deductible) for you and me, and SmartSense ($1,500 deductible) for Nick. I have only skimmed the documents so far, and plan on looking into them more before making my decision.
I wanted to forward the documents to you, though, to see if you saw any glaring concerns. My perception is that, out of the three of us, you get the most use out of medical insurance.
Regarding dental: have you been getting checkups? I highly recommend it. If finding delta-takers in the desert has been tough, then maybe you could start when you get to the SB area.
--H
---------------------
I was thinking "I'll look these over, thank you."
FYI, I'm not the one who uses the medical ins. most and yes, I am having trouble finding someone who takes our dental down here.
So... why is he all of a sudden worried about my dental health? And keeping me on his ins. (for which I am grateful) doesn't jive with 'complete financial separation'?
???
I have errand to run, so I will be out for a few hours. I'm not responding to this email right away. He can wait a bit.
Down day. I miss him, and I miss my son.
I kept busy, filling my morning with job stuff and a little time here on the boards, then did more moving prep., banking, errands, house hunting, etc.
I was out last night, so tonight I plan to stay home, cook myself a nice meal, watch a dvd and read the DR and DB books.
Ugh. I am posting here instead of calling or emailing H. I miss him bad right now. I can only hope that he's missing me as well.
What I want to to is call him and talk until the wee hours like we did when we were courting. Email him and tell him I love, miss him, can't wait to see him again.
Alas, you folks will have to put up with my drivel instead.
HAs anyone seen Finding Nemo? Did anyone else laugh at the AA parody with the sharks? I sort of feel like that scene.
"Hi, my name is Dia and I'm a pursuer."
"Hi, Dia."
"It's been 24 hours since my last pursuit. Where's my friggen' chip?"
Maybe we could all meet at Denny's and call ourselves Friends of Michele?
Dinner, btw, was roasted pork chops and veggies, then a plum and a handful of trail mix for dessert. Then I tried to watch HGTV, one of my girly faves but the shows were all a bunch of newlyweds buying houses and I couldn't even look at them.
The strange weightloss continues. I have little appetite, and what appetite I have is all for supremely healthy things like yogurt, strawberries, chicken and salad. My jeans are falling off me - even H noticed and commented on it. I'm going to need new knickers as well.
Ok, pursuing crisis averted for now. I'm going back to my books.
Behave, you lot.
Hi Dia. I just finished catching up on your sitch. I lost about 30 lbs when H started his shennanigans. Wish I could have kept it off! It was one of the silver linings! If the life shortening stress wasnt the cause I would have been all for it!
It sounds like you are doing well. I was glad to see that your H included you in his health ins plan. I wonder if maybe the thought of you taking care of him as far as that goes was just too much. Maybe it wasnt ALL about him wanting to be independant.
I do understand his statement though. While I want to stay M, and work things out with H, its very important to me to be well positioned so Im not floundering if he pulls the rug out from under me, so becoming financially independant, having my own car ins, health ins, etc. are all goals for me.
I got the DVD "Coraline" today, Im going to watch that, as far as dinner goes, I have no idea, nothing sounds good! Weekends are hard for me, I dont have to work and I have too much time on my hands, its when I miss H the most. Hopefully I can go fishing tomorrow! I got the book "Hope for the Separated" recently, its a christian based book, and Im not that religious, but Im hoping that it will have some good info, Lord know I need all the hope I can get right now!
I hope that you enjoy the rest of your night!
Dia,
You're doing great.
Backing up through your posts now and I see .....
I'm with coach - but not being that drastic. Besides which, have you ever tried breaking up an iPhone
H wanting your support - asking if you see anything wrong with forms? Asking about your health? Everything seems positive for you in this "snapshot of a confused person" (don't mean you). He's dithering. Good
Dead right about not replying immediately. Gives you time to digest just what the heck he's on about as well
Drivel gladly accepted.
H missing you? Of course he is. He's just got his head stuck up his own a$$ at the moment. My W is still stuck up hers. We both have idiots on our hands
Dia - just go with what you're doing.
Catch up with you later.
Gotta do two loads of washing. Shop for the first time in 2 months! And figure out where I'm going to watch the rugby.
Ahhhh - decisions decisions
Chin up chuckie!
Mac
Dia,
The weight loss is a good thing...to a point. As long as your'e eating healthy, I wouldn't worry about that too much right now. One of the first signs for me that I was coming out of the depressed funk (not saying you are there now) was when my appetite returned. Even when it returned, though, I, like you, only wanted healthy stuff - lots of grilled chicken, turkey, fresh vegetables, and fruit. I really feel good eating this way. But, I do crave the occasional hamburger or steak.
Fight the very strong urge to call or otherwise pursue your H. I know its hard, but you have to do it. Now, every sitch is different, but you want your H to want you. This is the way to do it.
Stay busy to try to keep your mind off your H. You can do this, and I sense you are very strong. Just know by taking these actions, you are working towards a long term goal of restoring your M. And, isn't that worth some short term struggle?
Thanks, Mac and GIMA,
I'm in an easier place with it today. I went to bed early and slept til 9 am - that always helps. Yesterday was the first full day home, and being alone in the parent's place is just so... quiet... and lonely. It was so great to be back with my family, all three of us together, kidlet right nearby, etc.
I have stuff to do, which keeps me distracted, and I have goals, which give me purpose. I'll get through it (though I may not like it all the time).
I am thinking good thoughts for both of you.
I have a really good lead on an apartment up on the coast. It's a duplex with 2 bedrooms and room for an office / art studio (I draw and paint). The rent is reasonable, there's a yard for the kidlet and the interactions with the potential landlady have been very positive. Her God-daughter lives in the other side of the duplex and all of them are artists in one way or another. The vibe so far is one of really great creative/spiritual female energy. Dare I say it? ... I almost feel like there will be healing there.
The downsides are a slightly inconvenient location, no dishwasher and street parking. Re: the location, it's pretty convenient to where I would likely be working but if I send kidlet to his former school, there will be a 15 min drive to get there, then anywhere from 15 - 45 mins to get back to where I will most likely work.
Here's the conundrum. H pays $1700 in rent, and my rent will be $1500. That's $3200 a month in friggen' rent combined. If H and I lived together and shared expenses, we'd be a heckuva lot better off financially speaking, and the financial ease would probably make us happier, more open people, too.
Should I even bring this up??
I should add that we are both financially pinched at the moment - not sure if that matters.
Dia:
If I did anything, I would let him know what it will cost and not it would be cheaper if...He will make the connection.
Delurking here to say, no, I don't think you should bring it up. It can definitely be seen as pursuing.
If H and I lived together and shared expenses, we'd be a heckuva lot better off financially speaking, and the financial ease would probably make us happier, more open people, too.
This pre-supposes that you're talking to someone with sense and a clear head
I agree entirely. It makes perfect sense to me and to you and to gima.
If it were that simple - how come my W doesn't see that?
Hmmmmmm
Mac
Thorny question.. (and geez, wouldn't it be nice to have some EASY questions to deal with?? Where's that red button from Staples?)
So I'm moving back up north to be near H, make kidlet stuff easier, etc - and the move is at H's (indirect) request. ("It would be nice to have you closer.")
H's best friend is a guy I'll call Adam. Adam's wife Amy left him around 6-7 years ago after a series of internet affairs and one night stands with bar bouncers. When Amy finally left, she went 2000 miles away, taking their baby daughter, to convert one of her IAs to a PA with a 23 yr old, bisexual,Goth, cross-dressing unemployed artist. (Thought that might provide some levity and context for some of us who are in MUCH better positions by comparison.) As you might imagine, Amy left a swath of destruction in her wake, including a severely strained friendship with me as I was advising her not to go and she left owing me money.
Amy eventually returned, geographically speaking, but she and Adam remain separated. They have not divorced because neither can afford it and remaining legally married maintains vital health coverage for their special needs daughter. Amy and H had a short but torrid affair, and it was the discovery of said affair that provoked me to actually leave.
Adam is a great guy, and I considered him and Amy to be 'both of our' friends. Adam and H are still close, playing internet games together every week and getting together for 'guy weekends' a few times a year.
Here's the conundrum: I have no issues being friends with Adam, seeing/buying bday presents for his daughter, etc, but I want nothing to do with Amy whatsoever. I don't want to see her, speak to her or even be in the same zipcode with her. Putting it mildly, I doubt I could be nice.
I do not know if Adam knows about the affair.
How do I interact with Adam? And assuming Adam picks up on my iciness toward Amy, how do I let Adam know that it has nothing to do with him? Adam and Amy do not live together, but how do I handle something like an invitation to the daughter's bday party where both would be present?
Does anyone have advice for experience with how to handle things if you end up in a social situation where the (former) OW is present? Is a knock-down, hair-pulling, eye-clawing girl-fight completely out of the question? (ok, I'm kidding on that last one... sort of.
)
Dia,
Like Gardener said.
Mac
Foul, pissy mood this morning....
I thought I had an apartment lined up and the owner told me she wasn't going to show it on Sunday, so it would be available for me as soon as I got up to see it. We traded some great emails including pictures of our artwork. There was all this female bonding crap, stories about her god-daughter and grandaughter who live in the building, etc.
She emailed me about 6 am saying 'the perfect couple' had showed up yesterday and it was taken. So much for not showing it on Sunday.
*grumble, mutter, stomp, snort*
If the universe wants this to happen, it had better get its arse in gear!! I'm getting a cup of coffee and will work on channeling Dr. Pangloss...
...
... Because, after all, this is the best of all possible worlds!
The rotten two timing .....
Where the heck have I heard this before?
The roof probably leaked anyway.
Perfect match. Two drips and a leaky roof
Mac (is back - sort of)
All's fair in love and beach town rentals, I guess. I'll get over it, but this isn't the first rental smackdown I've received, either. I really loathe how when a place is represented by an agent, the agent is all sweetness and light and "Oh, this place would be so perfect for you!". So you look at the place, call back the next morning to put down a deposit and they treat you like offal on their shoe. "It's rented. *click*"
Just gives me one more name I *won't* be using if I ever have a house to rent or sell.
The Suck of Eternal Monday continues.
In the midst of some emails about apartments and health insurance, I got a huge dose of anger levelled at me from H talking about all of the bad memories from him trying to change 'to please me'.
I validated. I apologized. And I think I dropped the rope? I said I needed to rethink the move.
I did NOT do this out of hurt or spite, and I did NOT do it as a ploy to get him to cave. I have been job hunting all summer and the only thing that looks like a sure bet is temp work for $13 - 18/hour. That may sound like a lot to some of you, but I'm looking at $1600/month rent up there, and that's before utilities, gas, groceries, etc. To qualify for an apartment, you have to make at least double, sometimes triple the monthly rent. The hard reality is that I'll never qualify.
I'm going to go have a good cry, then try to get my head back in the game and GAL. I have moving crap to do today even if I'm not moving up north, someone is coming to pick up kidlet's fish tanks, I have banking to do, etc.
Dia, hopelessly
Here is what I wrote to him. I have a feeling I messed this up, too.
-------------------------------
I am sorry for the pain and the bad memories. I hear you, and I understand where you are. I know what that pain feels like and I wish neither one of us had to go through it.
Here's my thought - continuing the separation and finalizing the divorce doesn't make the pain go away. It sets it in stone and makes it permanent. We will never be able to change the fact that we got divorced and no matter what we do, it will *always* hurt. That pain is not good for you, for me, or for kidlet. This is not what I want. I want healing for both of us and I am 100% certain it's possible. I have let go of the pain I felt in the relationship. When I did, I found that I loved you just as deeply and completely as I had the day we married. I actually knew that before I left - the loving you part.
The changes you made were successful. When I left, it was not because I was looking for one more thing to blame you for. I had already decided that I wanted to recommit 100% to the relationship. It was in a moment of blinding pain and because I couldn't see any other solution based on things you had told me. I wish I had been stronger at that time.
I can't change the past. I can only admit my own mistakes, apologize for them and change the future. As I said, I may need to rethink the move.
-------------------------------
My mother told me two years ago that if H and I were to have any chance of fixing this, we would BOTH have to let go of the pain and let go of blame.
I have done that, and it's left me in a surprisingly good place.
He hasn't, and he twisted and dangling from it. I can't change him. I can only change me.
Honey,
I think you have every idea (as opposed to no idea - which doesn't make sence) of how very very badly I want to do the same thing.
I see that you actually wrote that for you. And you sent it. I'm in tears. If I had received that being a member of the team that's thinking straight, I'd be back like a shot.
I hope it does what in your heart it was meant to do.
Brave yes? Right in DB terms no.
Let's see what happens.
My prayers are with you dia.
((((((dia))))))
Mac
Thanks, Mac,
I have my head on straight (for the moment), and I've started up an apartment hunt here in the desert while I continue the search up north, too. I hate to split my efforts that way, but I need to do what's best for myself and my son. It's really a dilemma. There are way more jobs up north but rent is about double up there.
Down here I can get 2 beds, 900 sq ft and a carport for $900/month or 2 beds, den, 2 car garage and 1800 sf for $1250. Much as I don't like debt, I can do that on my student loan while I finish my dissertation.
Up there, $1250 gets you a studio with a mini-fridge and hotplate. Decent 2 bed apartments start at about $1800, and the 2 bed, den, garage set-up will run $2500 - $2800. If I tried to do that on temp wages, I'd have to take the student loan as well and I wouldn't have time to work on my dissertation.
Holy roller-coaster he%$, Batman,
All the work I did last week shotgunning resumes is paying off. I now have 3 interviews up north. Two are just temp stuff, but one is for a research/grant-writing job with the United Way. It's very part-time, but it's the United Way. Talk about room to grow.
I'm going to end up looking like Sinead O'Connor after all the hair pulling I'm doing, and if I have interviews on W, Th, Friday, how the heck am I going to do them w/o asking to stay with H?? One day by itself, I could drive in and out even tho it's 4 hrs one way. But three days? Aaaaarrrrrgh!!!
FWIW, I'm also expecting a call for an interview with the biggest local non-profit up north. The Universe will do what it will and I'll go along for the ride.
(Which is my way of saying it's all God's plan and I have to just go with it.)
Venting...
How in the name of Pete can he be blasting the hell out of me for things I did wrong, stuff I did that hurt him while denying everything he did that was friggen identical that was equally wrong and hurt me? If it was wrong for me to do it (EA), then it was wrong for him to do it, too.
/end of vent
Yeah, I know, it's the pain talking. Duck's back. And no, I am not firing back or pointing out the whole pot/kettle thing.
I have a phone session with a DB coach tomorrow. Can't hurt and what do I have to lose (besides money)?
Edit: Ok - I have had absolutely enough of this today. I'm headed out to do stuff aimed at getting my life in order.
Cheers,
Dia
Dia, For starters you have to be prepared for some pushback after you get a little close. You just came off a pretty enjoyable weekend. Now to keep the WAS/LBS equilibrium intact we wobble back to the angry, blaming and hurting side. Don't rush in to fill that space with I'm sorry's and divorce isn't the answer. What do you think he is pushing you away now?
Is the move to be nearer to your H better for you?
Cheers
Hi, Coach,
The move is better for me on every angle except immediate financial. I like the area (leaving H aside), there are good long-term job prospects, kidlet likes it there, it will make shared custody easier, etc. Downside is cost of housing, pure and simple. With no job in hand, it looks like short term financial suicide.
If I stay down south, the cost of living is half what it is up there, but the job prospects are abysmal.
He is pushing me away now (he says) because he was so hurt that I asked him to make changes and he did (again, so he says) but I left anyway.
Truth is, I didn't leave because I wasn't happy with the changes. I left because while I was defending him to other people that he'd never have an affair, he was inviting my best friend back to our house to have a wild weekend in our bed. I had decided to tell him that I was ready to recommit 100% when I discovered the affair. He said he'd been in an R with her for a few months and was going to contiue it. His parents own the house we lived in, so if there was leaving it had to be me.
Should I have stayed? Well, yeah, but that ship has already sailed.
Edit: ok - so this is the pushback?? Wow, it's a whole lot bigger than I thought it would be. I expected withdrawal, not an anger blow. So this is actually good? The intensity indicates the intensity of positive feelings, too?
Dia
You won't lose money with your phone coaching. It is expensive but really helpful for YOU first and formeost and then for your M.
And here's the scoop on the changes:
I asked for:
1) Stop drinking and deal with stuff underlying the alcohol issue.
2) More housework.
3) Spend more time with me and kidlet. We're feeling utterly neglected and unwanted.
I got:
1) He stopped drinking, but with poor grace and denial of an underlying problem. ("If I can stop drinking for a week, then I can't be an alcoholic.") I was and am currently satisfied with the state of the alcohol sitch. (Though if he'd read the Big Book, that line is in it word for word.)
2) He did more housework, though again, with poor grace. I was and am currently satisfied with the housework.
3) Not so much, but I was willing to work harder on this one given how hurt and scared we both were.
Ok, I'm headed out - for real this time, But how do I handle him in his hurt/anger phase?
Dia, I have seen you giving some great advice on other people's sitch's in your posts. I have not had time to fully read yours, so hope I don't speak out of turn..
But how do I handle him in his hurt/anger phase?
I believe this requires a lot of the DB techniques, though I am sure more experienced db'ers will offer some insights.
I don't think this is something you can handle for him, other than how you react to it. He has to work through that himself.
You can offer him the kindness of space. Keeping your PMA for yourself. Understanding that he'll say things that just are not true, or maybe hurtful to you, but also some things that maybe are true, while he is hurt and angry and to let those not affect you, nor be a reflection of the good person you know you are.
Also, take some time for yourself, to reflect on how you are feeling, and to acknowledge those feelings, not try and suppress them to yourself, and then be able to accept them for what they are, without judging yourself for how you feel, and move past them.
Wishing you the best!
He initiated a hug in the sitch where he said OW's name,
Huh???? What about this? He called the OW's name while he was giving you a hug? I kind of think that would void all those other "goals" that he was not so graciously doing!!
Dia, I really like you girl! I see you as being a real sweetheart here--and so many people on the board adore you. I see you as being bright, sharp, wise, and with much humor. Did I say smart? I have hesitated to say something to you b/c I like you so much and b/c I am going to sound like a very “bad guy” when I tell you this. I do not want to pull you down, but hope in telling you this it will give you a determination to guard against it and work to show your spunk in your R with your H. I probably did not say that in a very good way, but anyway here’s the thing…I am concerned that you may come across as being “needy” to your H. You seem so strong in everything else, but I think b/c your LL is physical affection that it may almost be your downfall in this respect. I have seen a common similarity in people whose LL is physical affection and it is rather amazing to me and I suppose that is b/c my LL is NOT physical affection. The people I know personally whose LL is physical affection all seem to have this same trait or quality, or something…..that I don’t know how to put into words. I wish I did. Nevertheless, I can see it in your writings. That is why I wonder if your H sees you as pursuing. I think a person whose LL is the same as yours can come across as almost smothering at times. Oh, this sounds awful and I do not mean to offend you at all, I hope you believe that. I just don’t know a good way to say this.
You truly seem to be such a loving person and I wished I was more like you. I really do! You see, I know myself well enough to know that if my H ever acted as if he did not want to be near me….that would probably be the last he ever saw or heard from me again! That is just the way I am….which is not to say it is a good way to be (not at all)! When I read some posts here from other women, I wonder if something is wrong with me. Do I not love as much as these other women? When I examine my heart I know that I do love as much as others, but we all have different traits about us. I say “traits” b/c I don’t know what word to use. I believe the reason I am the way I am is b/c of my mother’s influence in raising me….however, my sister is just like you….so go figure! (lol) I have watched my sister in amazement and wondered why on earth she put up with what she did in her H and why she did not kick him to the curb…but that is another story.
I will probably be sorry for sending this post b/c it is not sounding like I wished it would. But know that I meant is well. I hope in setting your goals that you will work toward not showing your H any more words of love or concern for him (at this time) b/c it truly does push a WAS further away. Your have told him how you feel and now you need to wait on him to make a move to discuss his feelings or to talk about the R. You do not need to do anything to try to “help” him in his pain. I see you as a person who wants to fix things (and that I can identify with) but you cannot fix him. The hardest thing for you will be to wait on him. Your temptation will be your great “need” for his closeness.
I will tell you this and hope it will be encouraging. There was a young man who was on the board here and his stitch looked very bad. However, he kept applying the DB techniques and his M was saved. (I suppose I felt blessed for investing some time with his stitch an d seeing a great outcome.) He left the board a happy H and a new daddy! His stitch proved that the DB principles will work in saving a M, but it does take a lot of patient and “time”. Don’t give up b/c I believe in time that your H will draw near to you. Every time he sees you (even just for a minute) he will see the girl he fell in love with and be reminded of how much he misses you. You can let him see that girl he fell in love with by working toward being “her” again. I think we lose that somewhere down the road and it’s rather hard to get it back….but not impossible. I can tell you that trying to remember how I was at 18 is a far cry from what I am today….(lol) and I doubt my H wants me to be totally like I was at 18, but the part he fell in love with is who he wants to see. Does that make sense? I hope so.
Anyway, that was what I wanted to tell you and I hope it doesn’t hurt too much. You are very intelligent and I feel that you know in your heart what you need to work on in this R. You can do it Dia….I know you can. You have so much to give and you are such a spirited person that it makes people feel good to be around you. I can tell that by reading what you have to say. I wish I had the qualities that you have! Your H knows he would be crazy to let somebody like you slip through his fingers! Just give him time to work this all out. You focus on you and your child and make a life for yourself, okay?
Take care,
Sandi
Hey, sandi - thank you, and no worries. Nothing you said landed funny. I appreciate the feedback and even if it looks like I'm a slow learner, I do take these things to heart and *try* to listen.
And re: saying her name - He hugged me as part of an apology for taking about her thoughtlessly in front of me. He didn't call me by her name or say it while he was hugging me.
Thank you for the kind words. I am going to read your post again and think on it.
Cheers,
Dia
And re: saying her name - He hugged me as part of an apology for taking about her thoughtlessly in front of me. He didn't call me by her name or say it while he was hugging me.
I am sure glad to hear that! And....you most certainly are NOT a slow learner....are you kidding? But, as we've said before, it is hard to see ourselves in our own stitch and often takes someone on the outside to point something out. Besides, that is just my POV. Others may not see that at all.
See, here's the problem for me:
If you're the one who's had the EA, you're supposed to be loving, caring, reassuring, fill your spouse's love buckets, apologize, show remorse, be affectionate, etc. (i.e. - pursue)
But if you're the LBS, you're supposed to detach, GAL, NOT pursue.
I'm both.
So what the heck do I do - those things are diametrically opposed? If it's Monday, I must be in Paris?
And to make it even harder, the LL stuff was working!! And it's next to impossible to know from moment to moment whether I'm supposed to be LLing or detaching and GALing? He kinda flips on a dime that way and I'm not always certain of the triggers.
How do you mean the LL was working? Do you mean recently?
Yes, over the weekend, when I gave him praise, compliments, smiles and two origami notes, he got all melty and positively glowed. One of the notes was even romantic and that's the one that got the biggest response.
???
The hardest thing for you will be to wait on him. Your temptation will be your great “need” for his closeness.
I will tell you this and hope it will be encouraging. There was a young man who was on the board here and his stitch looked very bad. However, he kept applying the DB techniques and his M was saved. (I suppose I felt blessed for investing some time with his stitch an d seeing a great outcome.) He left the board a happy H and a new daddy! His stitch proved that the DB principles will work in saving a M, but it does take a lot of patient and “time”. Don’t give up b/c I believe in time that your H will draw near to you. Every time he sees you (even just for a minute) he will see the girl he fell in love with and be reminded of how much he misses you. You can let him see that girl he fell in love with by working toward being “her” again.
Sandi - SO good to see you back and in the groove.
Dia, payback time - patience, faith. You're doing great.
Hugs to you both.
Mac
Yes, over the weekend, when I gave him praise, compliments, smiles and two origami notes, he got all melty and positively glowed. One of the notes was even romantic and that's the one that got the biggest response.
Oh, okay.....I see what you are saying now. But this seems to be more like words of affirmation for him rather than physical affection. I remember us talking about that in the beginning of your thread. So, is that his LL? And, the physical affection is "your" LL? I have thought about what you said last night and your feelings as the WAS and your H as the LBS. It is very difficult to always know the “right” way when people have opposite natures in how they handle situations. For me, I always say to stick with what works. If your H responds when you give him words of affirmation, then that is the road to take. As the LBS, his self-esteem has been crushed and his male ego has taken a beating. Your esteem hasn’t exactly been built up either! However, in reading your posts, I get the feeling that you are past that part and are ready to forgive and move forward…..hopefully with your H. I admire how you wrote about working through the pain and found that you still loved him.
It seems that as long as you can stay away from any words that hint at being a “family” again that you are doing the best thing in what you are practicing. To me, it would be something I would want to exercise caution in not coming on to him too strongly…..but again, that is my nature and you probably can be very natural and easy with how you talk to him. Wish I could be more that way! Perhaps you could teach me how to say things to your H without sounding too…”yuck”….(lol).
I thought of one more thing I meant to say. In response to what you said about being the WAS and showing your regret to your H, etc. I believe that you expressed everything in your letter to him and that you shouldn't have to continue to state your remorse and continue to apologize to him. To me, there comes a point of doing it too much and the LBS would begin to lose a certain amount of respect b/c they would see the WAS being pathetic. Even as a WAS, I feel that it is very important to maintain dignity and self-respect. Yes, we can feel great remorse for what we did, but I don't think that it requires us to continually assure the WAS how repentant we are. (Since you are not in the house with him, it would appear that you were doing that a lot.....IMHO.) So I don't think you should feel that you should have to coninue to do that. I am a firm believer in not placing ourselves (if a WAS or a LBS) as any sort of doormat position in the R b/c that loses respect from the other spouse.
I think what I was trying to say in my post last night was that I hope since the physical affection is your LL and you have expressed how much you miss and need him (which is fine to do that here), it may be your undoing if you show “neediness” to him. Perhaps you are just doing that here on the board and that’s fine b/c it’s what the board is for. Better to do that here, right? I was concerned in the beginning that you were being too eager in giving him praises, but you know this man better than anyone else, so you need to use your best judgment in these matters. And, for some reason, I thought the two of you were still under the dame roof in the beginning of your thread. My bad.
I agree with everyone else that you are doing great. I think I am kind of like a “mamma” to a lot of people here…wanting to warn my children to be careful. That last statement is meeant to be one of endearment and not a slap in the face.
BTW Mac, thanks for your encouragement. You are a sweetie! You are one of these rare people who seem to see the positive in each new day. I hope you never lose that!
Dear GOD, where's the coffee? I'm up an hour early b/c I have an appt. with a DB Coach this morning. When the going gets tough, the tough call in more firepower.
Thanks, Mac n Sandi. I'll post more when it's over.
Mac, thanks for your encouragement. You are a sweetie! You are one of these rare people who seem to see the positive in each new day. I hope you never lose that!
You have my promise on that Sandi. Remember - together we are stronger.
How the heck do I get that tattooed in reverse on my W's forehead?
And the quote just proves that you are busy elsewhere otherwise I think you would be paddling my butt
Dear DEAR dia - you really know your beans. Coffee and coaching at the same time.
Hugs to you both and anyone else in the queue
Mac
DB Coaching session went really well. I feel a lot more confident and a lot more comfortable with the sitch. She gave me some very specific pointers and suggestions, and in particular, she told me how to handle the fact that I need to go up north this week for more interviews after Mr. Pissy-Pants pitched such a fit.
And the answer was... Act As If. Treat it casually as if I'm sure he'll agree. *shrug* Ho'kay.
I will be buying a 3 or 6 pack of sessions when I have the funds to do so.
As per discussion with DBC, I called H to discuss the interviews this week. I was light, casual, happy and acted-as-if. He was groggy but equally casual and positive. The invitation is still open for me to stay there, and we joked and bantered about a few things before the end of the call.
It was a positive interaction, which is nice since the last one was a bit of a train wreck.
The reason for a call instead of an email is that a call leaves nothing up to interpretation regarding my tone. If H was still in a negative frame of mind, an email could have come across as sulky or passive aggressive even if that's not how it was written. Voice contact would avoid that, plus give the greatest opportunity for positive synergy.
And it worked.
The reason for a call instead of an email is that a call leaves nothing up to interpretation regarding my tone. If H was still in a negative frame of mind, an email could have come across as sulky or passive aggressive even if that's not how it was written. Voice contact would avoid that, plus give the greatest opportunity for positive synergy.
Smart Cookie!
H will have a house full of people during my next visit. My FIL will be there, as will my SIL with her baby, my 18-month-old niece that I haven't even seen yet!
Here's the scoop:
FIL is a decent guy. Compassionate, helpful, knows I want to reconcile with H.
SIL is a toss-up. She's made overtures to me before about being closer, and at the time of the sep she told me she hoped I wouldn't just fade away. I reached out to her a little while back and never heard thing one from her. Nobody would ever send me pics of the baby, so I sorta took that as not being welcome to see my niece and left it alone. Am planning to bring baby a small present. (I'm a sucker for babies.)
MIL - Once you get past the green nose and pointy hat.... (humor!!) she's manipulating and controlling bar none. Remember the D-'s, family friends who offered me a temporary place to stay if I needed it? Well, apparently MIL has said that if the D-'s take me in, they are choosing me over her and she will consider them disloyal. And now the D-'s have told me I can't stay at their place. She has also told FIL that if H reconciles with me, she will throw him out of the house and disinherit him by writing him out of the family trust. H's parents own the house that H and I were renting and H still lives in. FIL says he's not sure she actually would, but get this - he said he will probably go along if she does because if he doesn't it would probably mean a divorce for them. (Can you say 'dysfunctional'? I knew you could!)
MIL will not be there in person, but I am dead certain she will be there in spirit. SIL may or may not be her stooge.
Aside from setting up video cameras to capture these lovely family moments for my own personal reality show, does anyone have suggestions?
And just to cap it off, house is 3 beds, 1.5 baths, maybe 1200 sq ft and will be occupied by 4 adults, a 9 yr old, a toddler and 2 cats.
Um - Can I just stay with one of you lot instead??
does anyone have suggestions?
Boundaries for all your relationships.
Don't worry about what other people think. They change the unwritten rules once you start to get them figured out.
How is the healthier, wiser, stronger and more loving Dia going to handle it?
Cheers
Well, for one, Dia's gonna love on that baby no matter what!!
As for the rest of them, I am who I am. If SIL wants to be close and I don't get the sense that she's on a spying expedition for MIL, I'll be close. Might even be fun.
It's entirely possible that I'll be too busy this trip to have much time for H unless he goes out of his way to make time. *shrug* I'll leave that up to him.
Mostly my expectations for this visit are that everyone gets out alive.
If we can add 'unbloodied' to that, I'll call it a success.
Thanks, Coach!
Journaling - but feel free to comment.
Strange day. Up early, good session with DB coach. Good phone call with H.
Viewed a really amazing condo here in the desert. It's everything we (kidlet and I) need and more. Good location, reasonable price. If I knew for sure that I was staying here, I'd have put money on it today.
Since I've been losing weight hand over fist and cleaning out my closets in prep for the move, I found a dress I bought awhile ago but have never worn. It was too tight when I bought it but on sale enough that I grabbed it anyway (is that pure female or what? I've never heard of a guy doing that). It's just above the knee, clingy, and it's got stylized peonies in white and periwinkle blue on a black background. Anyhow, I saw it and wondered if it would fit now.
Oooh-la-la. Not only does it fit but it shows off my new shape quite nicely. It definitely showcases my best assets. It's also got these dangly ties on the sleeves and bodice that will drive H absolutely wild wanting to tug or play with them.
I am SO wearing this dress tomorrow.
Dia,
Make him notice you but keep those ties out of his little fingers. Act as if the family is close and warm, and overlook or bite your tongue when they tick you off. You know it quite possible could happen and you can prepare for it.
Good job on the weight loss! I am sure you are going to be smokin' hot in the dress.
Hmmm, I guess there are a few good things about being by myself. I *love* sweetcorn and it was 4 ears for a buck at the store today, so I got 4. And ate every single one! Just for once, it was nice not having to share.
Wow, full day already.
Was up early to do assessments for the employment agency I'm meeting with. That was an exercise in frustration because their program kept hanging, crashing and generally NOT acting like MS Word or whatever program it was supposed to emulate.
Then I went to haul more boxes prepping for the move. 2 hours hard labor in the heat. Fielded some calls and things for jobs, came home, took 15 mins nap and now need to hit the shower so I can primp and preen for the drive north.
On the way out of town (or before I leave) I have to print some things off, get gas, stop at the bank, maybe pick up snacks for the road, and grab a present for my niece that I've never seen.
Then I have a 4 hr drive to the family-under-the-microscope weekend.
Yay? Ugh? Whatever.
Oh, and funny convo with H, who called me to check on my ETA for this evening.
Dia (out of breath): Hello?
H: Hi, this is H. Am I interrupting an interview?
Dia: Yes, just a minute. (then, as if to interview panel) I'm sorry gentlemen. I need to pause this interview. The person on the phone right now is FAR more important than your piddly CEO job.
H: (major laughs!)
Dia: No, this is fine. I'm hauling boxes.
(short, upbeat conversation ensues)
Dia,
You could get a fabulous job as a scriptwriter
Good one.
Catch u later.
Mac
Oh, and funny convo with H, who called me to check on my ETA for this evening.
Dia (out of breath): Hello?
H: Hi, this is H. Am I interrupting an interview?
Dia: Yes, just a minute. (then, as if to interview panel) I'm sorry gentlemen. I need to pause this interview. The person on the phone right now is FAR more important than your piddly CEO job.
H: (major laughs!)
Dia: No, this is fine. I'm hauling boxes.
(short, upbeat conversation ensues)
Huge, huge thumbs way up. I think if there is any magic bullet for relationships, it's shared laughter and being able to use playfulness and lightheartedness to your (mutual) benefit. Really good job.
Dia, I have an extra room, sorry, its a little out of your way though! I hope that your drive went well!
Stay cool with the family, water off a ducks back! It sounds like H might even be looking forward to the visit, as good humored as he was during the phone call! I hope all goes well, enjoy loving on that baby!
Well, the drive was long. Didn't get here til just after 11 and everyone is asleep. That's ok, H can see my pretty new dress tomorrow and then he can think about it all day at work.
When I got here, there were lights left on for me, and there was a note from H on my pillow that reads:
--------------
D,
There's talk of going to Sambo's for breakfast tomorrow at 7:30. You're invited. You can come along or stay here to worship Goddess Andra.
-H.
---------------
Cool. Breakfast!
Andra is our little 8 lb all black kitty who has a good 50 lbs of Siamese diva'tude on her. The name is short for Andromeda. The other kitty is Percival, Percy for short. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, Percy. His nickname is Percimus, or Mr. Big-and-White-and-Not-Too-Bright.
Edit: My pillow, however, is on the couch - but I knew that coming in so no big deal.E
Hang in there Dia. Sounds like you are doing great. Slow and steady.
Breakfast was great, lots of talking and laughing. Again, if you didn't know, you nwouldn't be able to tell there was anything wrong between us. No touching except the accidental touch of knees and fingertips, no hug, no kiss before he left the table for work - but the rest of the interactions seemed perfectly light, warm and comfortable.
It's so confusing!!
SIL seems fine and interested in maintaining a relationship with me. She introduced me to the baby as 'Auntie Dia' with zero hesitation and that made me happy. Baby is darling and likes the toy I brought her. I also got socks and a little outfit which made SIL happy as she had forgotten to pack baby socks.
The baby is darling, with big brown eyes and a head of blonde curls. She has the cutest laugh.
She's about 16 mos old, so she walks and climbs all over but doesn't have that many words yet.
Again, if you didn't know, you nwouldn't be able to tell there was anything wrong between us.
Yep. Me too.
We are both just going to have to see where all this goes.
And, yes, it is confusing. But, let's let THEM be confused, not US. It's only confusing if WE try to interpret what THEY are thinking/doing.
Spent the day with SIL and baby niece. Had some really good talks with SIL, even got some insight on the MIL issue.
Job interview went well, thought the position is only a PT contract thing.
Got home, changed from interview clothes to pretty new dress, freshened hair and makeup, brushed teeth, new spritz of scent and was out on the deck looking at the ocean when H came home. On the down side, he informed me that he and kidlet were going to a friend's house to watch movies and I would be on my own tonight. He said they were leaving right away, but instead of actually leaving he drew out the convo for a good 10 minutes until kidlet came out and reminded him that they were supposed to be there already. (Hey kidlet, whose side are you on?!? LOL) He remarked on the dress and the lipgloss, so he was looking enough to notice.
I told them to have a good time and I'd be fine on my own. He gave me a good, warm hug that I really enjoyed.
'Morning, all,
Interactions with H continue to show approach-avoidance on his part - normal for the sitch, of course. When he and kidlet came home from watching movies, he sat on the couch with me talking and laughing for a good 45 mins - and he initiated it. There was a slightly tense convo this morning over the insurance issue which I handled with a casual, coffee-sipping, "Oh, whatever you choose will be fine. Thank you for including me on the plan."
That's a 180 on my part. Before, I would have been the one to analyze the health plans, compare scenarios and point out things like putting the two of us on one plan and kidlet on a separate one actually *increases* the total deductible we'd be responsible for by 50%. Under the current arrangement, that's not my problem; it's his. DB Coach said that sometimes people (H in particular) just need to learn stuff the hard way... so let 'em. If H's choices get him into a sitch where he has to shell out an extra $1500, well - he just might learn something from it.
I also got another H-initiated hug today. He pulled kidlet, me and his sis all into a big group hug, but he was looking straight at me when he initiated it and I was snugged right up next to him. That's two so far and I haven't asked for any.
Here's something I'd like confirmed from you male-types. Last night H remarked on my dress and my lip gloss. The words were not direct compliments (Hi there, blue-dress woman. Oooh, you have shiny girly lip-stuff on!) but from him, those are compliments. Then this morning while I was still in my blinking and rumpled state, he gazed at me for awhile and complimented my skin. Gents... these are really good things, right? They're pre-flirtation stuff that mean he's actually *looking*, as in, with interest?
I've accepted the compliments well and thrown a few his way though much less intense and overt than last visit. I still miss and want him terribly, but I feel much less needy about the whole thing. I think the DB session really helped. It also helps that I have an apartment pretty much lined up back home if I need it, so I feel some security about my living situation. I may still end up up here, but I have a fallback position in place. That helps.
Here's a chuckler for you, and yes, you can say I told you so...
I'm pursuing much less this visit yet things are much better.
I feel stronger and more confident both in general and because not pursuing lessens my chances for rejection. He's initiating more and that makes *me* feel good and there's less tension on the situation overall.
Ok, consider me a convert.
Yes, there are still avoidant behaviors on his part, such as scurrying to a separate bedroom at night, avoiding purposeful touch and excluding me from the movie session, but at least for this weekend the positive signs are outweighing the negative. I'm not sure if it's the sitch that's changed or just my perception of it - probably both.
I have another interview today so I'll be out for much of the day.
Chin up and hang in there, everyone.
oh, and here's another puzzler...
One of my interviews got moved from Friday to Monday. My original plan was to do all of the interviews on Thurs/Fri and go home Fri night or Sat morning. The Monday interview raises the question of whether I should drive home as planned and come back for the Monday appt., or if I should stay the weekend.
H is making noises about me staying. (???) They're ambivalent noises, but noises nonetheless. Initially I said I was going to go home between them, but 2 or 3 times now H has told me I can stay, brought up me staying or otherwise mentioned me staying.
There are some risks to staying, of course, the biggest of which is me overstaying my welcome despite his aparrent invitation. If I get calls on Monday for more interviews later in the week, I will have spent a full week or more here. The longer I stay, the more chance there is of tripping up my great DBing or him getting funny about my being here. I also didn't pack for a week; I packed for two days.
Anybody got insights, suggestions, etc?
Dia
Sounds like it is going well. Keep doing what you are doing.
In response to your question about your H's comments, I do think it is both good and flirtation (not pre-flirtation). I did the same with my wife, usually b/c I was testing the waters for ML.
Keep it up.
Dia
Sounds like it is going well. Keep doing what you are doing.
In response to your question about your H's comments, I do think it is both good and flirtation (not pre-flirtation). I did the same with my wife, usually b/c I was testing the waters for ML.
Keep it up.
*laughing* Thanks, GIMA
If
that's what he's angling for, maybe he should arrange to make those comments in the
bedroom. *grin*
I will warm up my response to the compliments a little and see what happens. I have given him a few 'looks' this trip. Nothing so direct as to be smoldering, more... speculative.
Full moon last night and today the Universe is throwing non-stop curveballs!
Totally rotten night, sleep wise - didn't get to sleep til around 3 am for a variety of reasons. Then today, FIL and SIL said they were taking niece out and would be back by 11:30 or 11:45 to get kidlet and would I mind watching him for the morning hours. I didn't mind, told 'em to have a great time.
At 11:35 FIL called asking if I could drop kidlet off at H's office instead them coming to get him. I had a 1 pm interview with a 30 - 45 min drive, so I needed to leave by 12: 15. Add in dropping off kidlet - who was still in jammies - and I'd have to leave by 12 at the lastest, a mere 25 minutes in the future. And a glance out the window at the freeway told me that there was no way they'd make it back to the house to get kidlet before I had to leave for my interview. Cr@p!!
BUT - dropping kidlet off would give me a chance to waltz into H's work looking confident and fabulous and maybe have co-workers ask him who that hot woman was... Since I didn't really have a choice, I said yes. Threw the kidlet into some clothes, finished getting me ready and made it to the car 5 mins early. This meant no lunch for either of us, and I had to seriously rush my hair and makeup. I was a bit grumpy with FIL, SIL and H for springing this on me but dealing with it was going to be more efficient than pitching a fit.
In the car, two phone calls came in. One was to move my first interview from 1 pm to 1:30. Good, that means I have time for lunch again! The second was moving my second interview from Friday to "Monday or Tuesday". Cr@p! Now I have two interviews on Monday.
So, arrived at H's work with kidlet in tow. I walked in all big smiles and "Hellos". He turned around from his computer with an annoyed look on his face and offered a perplexed greeting. Suddenly it dawned on me - he had no idea why we were there!
Dia: Oh, no! Your dad didn't tell you? He called me and said to drop off kidlet here with you. Gosh, and here I thought it might have been your idea.
He seemed fairly uncomfortable, and I thought it was about me being in his office in front of all of his work buddies. So I smiled and suggested he work it out with his dad, wished him a good day and left.
Then I went stopped into the McD's that's about half a block from his office, glad that I had time to grab some food to prevent a blood sugar crash during the interview. I was at the counter waiting for my order when H and kidlet walked in.
We all laughed and said things like "Fancy meeting you here," and "Come here often?" With my biggest, dirt-eatingest grin, I said "Shall I get us a table or do you want to sit on opposite sides of the restaurant?" That may sound harsh and nasty in type, but it was pure, good-humored banter and that's how he took it. He said for me to get a table and they would join me there.
So we had our lunch, talking and laughing about coincidence. As he was talking about his day, he mentioned that he'd been dealing with a frustrating problem all morning and was trying to finish it before he let himself eat, so he'd been both highly frustrated and starving when I arrived. (So the annoyed look wasn't about me - good lesson for me there about making assumptions.) Once he had the kidlet, he figured the better part of valor was to bail on the project for half an hour (system re-install) and make sure both of them were fed.
He also said that he heard the bells from my ankle bracelet on the way in and had been wondering "who had ankle bells that sounded just like Dia's?"
Now here's the big finale... Kidlet finished his burger while H and I were still talking and told H he wanted to go. H looked at kidlet and told him, "I'm not ready to leave yet. I'm going to sit here and talk to Mom for a few more minutes."
We laughed that my new interview turned out to be with one of his biggest clients and we shared some gripes about the parking situation there. He complimented my outfit, then I checked my cellphone clock and told him I had to leave for the interview (I had 10 more mins, really, but I wanted to leave first). He said he'd see me when he got home tonight.
Veddy interesting. Now I just have to figure out if I'm staying here or going home for the weekend.
Dia,
Sounds like it is going well. Keep going.
Veddy interesting. Now I just have to figure out if I'm staying here or going home for the weekend.
Doesn't the mysterious Dia have some very interesting weekend plans she needs to get back for?
Yes, Dia does - but the drive is 4-5 hrs each way plus gas and Dia lives on $800/month. *wince*
I may still pull out tonight once rush hour subsides, however.
Pull out, even if you have to find a cheap motel and not go all the way home. I know its hard on the 800, but this way you aren't right there. Or, stay and be nearly invisible. You can always find a good book to read at the library.
Hmmm, my plan was to leave after dinner. We just got into the most lovely round of sexual banter, however. Wow.
If he asks me directly to stay, I will stay. If not, I'll go. As for why, if I leave - and thereby reject him - when he asks directly for the first time, he may well not ask again and that's not fear talking, that's experience. Otherwise, I'll make him miss me.
And we're all waiting holding our breath and turning blue
He didn't ask - but he acted hurt when I left. (??) Men - go figure.
Leaving was the right thing to do?
Dia,
I think this is a good sign. He didn't act hurt b/c he wanted you to go. Think about it. We men still have that little boy inside us that pouts/gets feelings hurt when we don't get what we WANT.
You did the right thing by leaving. Make him miss you. Sounds like he will. Again, time is on your side.
I also think you did the right thing. Hopefully he'll miss you but either way, you did good girl!
Thanks folks - quick post tonight. I have only just made it home from H's place. While I was on the road, my mother called me saying my grandfather was ill and wanted to be taken to the hospital. Since I was already enroute, a small detour put me on their doorstep w/in 45 mins of her call.
Grampa is 86 and has become increasingly frail over the last several years. We (my gramma and I) took him to urgent care and they had him transported to the hospital by ambulance. I'll spare you the gory details, but this may be it for him.
For those of you with military backgrounds, Gramp was a Navy pilot in WWII, flying escort missions from Alameda to Manila and playing in the jazz band. His wings are pinned to his Navy ballcap which he wore into the ambulance.
Prayers, candles and good thoughts are most welcome.
Dia,
Good on you girl. You are so strong to have this lumped on you.
Getting out the personal bible now for Grampa, for your family and for you. And for H (and my W!)
Mac
I am on my way to church shortly, Dia. I will add your Grampa to my prayers.
Gramp is doing guardedly better today so we're in 'wait and see' mode. If he continues to improve, he could possibly be released Mon or Tues. If there are continued issues, there will be more aggressive intervention, likely including surgery.
Thank you for the prayers and good wishes. They are much appreciated.
Ok - back to the sexual banter from the last visit. I record these things here because it helps me to see clearly when I want to look at what's working and what isn't, or if I need examples to tell the DB coach.
So, Friday evening H decided we should have hamburgers for dinner. With 4 adults and two kids, this was a bit of an undertaking. He sliced up onions, tomatoes and squash while I made pudding and made the patties. He was appreciative of my help and the mood in the kitchen was warm, light and upbeat. He mentioned that he had used my Kitchen Aid mixer (at his house on loan) to make cookies with kidlet while I'd been gone, and that kidlet liked the dough hook attachment. Apparently, it's much easier to lick than the other ones.
H: It's not ergonomic; it's tongue-o-nomic.
Dia: Tongue-o-nomic? Oh my, I'm FAR too polite to swing at that lovely pitch.
H: (laughter)
Dia: (shows H the platter of hamburger patties)
H: Ooooh, thank you. Your round patties please me. Would you kindly take them to the deck with me?
Dia: (follows H to deck and sets platter on table) What else needs doing?
H: I'm not going to swing at that lovely pitch.
Dia: (laughing) ZING!!
H: Could you grab the buns?
Dia: Oooooohhhh! (slight leer in voice) I'm not going to swing at that lovely pitch, darling - and now we've probably worn that one to death, hmm??
H: (brandishing a grill spatula) Never! We've only just begun to pitch!
Now, this whole scene was accompanied by him grilling and me sashaying on and off the deck to bring various plates, ingredients, etc. It was the exact kind of vibe where I would have kissed him en passant or given his buns a squeeze. And we most certainly would have ended up in bed later that evening.
As it was, I withdrew a little bit from the banter because, well, those arse-grabbing urges were getting pretty darn hard to control!
He was still upbeat and cordial, but he seemed to pull back as well - but only just a little. We cleaned up together after dinner with him putting everything away and me washing dishes. He served me pudding and brought it to me, sitting with me on the couch talking while we ate.
When we were done cleaning up, I said I should be going. He told me I should "Do whatever is right for me" but his tone of voice was stung, hurt but hiding it, and he then retreated to his computer while I packed. There was no hug when I left.
Also, there's this movie that's extremely foundational to our relationship, The Princess Bride. Quotes from that movie are a private love language for us. He quoted a line from the movie at me when we woke up Friday morning. I have this feeling it was a an unintentional slip, though a good one, into our former patterns of interaction.
Another interesting tidbit - I just took all the messages off my phone from the last few days. What with being in interviews and the ER, I let a fair number of calls go to voicemail. There was one from H saying a) they were stopping at the store and did I want anything? and b) He and kidlet were going to a friend's house to watch movies that night.
Can anyone else see him twisting in the wind?
Oh - 180s...
One of the things the DB coach and I talked about was letting H learn stuff the hard way as long as it wasn't going to cause a threat to life and limb.
H had sliced up a squash to put on the grill, along with some onion rounds. I suggested brushing them with a little olive oil and maybe some herbs if he felt like it. He didn't, not sure if he forgot or just ... didn't... but the veggies didn't cook that well. The onions were ok but the squash somehow managed to have burned grill marks on it and yet still be mostly raw.
The old Dia would have 'reminded' him several times about the olive oil, and he would have felt like I thought he was incompetent at grilling. The new Dia suggested it once and then completely let go of the issue. So the veggies could have been cooked better. The earth will not end because of undercooked squash. I heard how it crunched when he bit into it, so I discreetly didn't have any. And you know what? *I* felt better at the end of the meal because if I'd gotten emotionally invested in the whole olive oil thing, I'd have been annoyed that he didn't use any ("he never listens to me!" etc.). Instead of nagging about the olive oil, I complimented him for the great burgers. Better outcome for both parties = Win - Win!
Hmm, do WAS really notice stuff that you *don't* do? I mean, it's real easy to notice that your spouse is washing dishes when they never used to, but isn't it a whole lot easier to miss the absence of a negative behavior than the presence of a positive one?
Also - note to self - if an anniv. present is appropriate, get H the kind of grill tray designed for fish and/or veggies.
Geez, I'm a blabbermouth today. I accidentally left my wedding rings at H's house and I'm a little freaked about it. I have this little round, embossed leather box that's about the size of a golf ball. It holds several of my rings, including my wedding rings and H's wedding ring too. I took my rings off and put them in the box when I was making the hamburgers and I put the box high on a kitchen shelf because the baby had gotten it earlier and flung the rings all over.
When I left, I forgot the box, so it's presumably still on the shelf. I have no idea what he'll think if he finds the box and opens it. Nostalgia, longing, rejection, anger - as in maybe I left them on purpose - no clue. It's out of my control, so I'll just have to get the box back when I get back up there.
Well, my subconscious decided I needed a leg kicked out from under me.
I took a nap today in the big recliner chair in the LR and I had a series of those dreams that are so real that you think they *are* real sometimes even after you wake up.
I dreamed that H came over to the chair while I was napping, kissed me lightly and told me that he was here now and everything would be ok. I half woke up, smiled and said ILY. He put his arms around me and I held him so tight. I could actually feel him in my arms. I was nearly crying. We kissed softly but deeply. Still barely awake, I asked him how he had gotten here. He said my father had called him and told him to come. His hair was long like it was when we were dating.
There was a whole lot more but it went on in that vein. Complete sucker punch to the gut. Woke up (for real this time) looking around to see if he was really here and feeling like I'd been hit by a Mack truck.
And now I either have to pack up and go up there tonight, or get up at 4 am and go tomorrow morning. Sigh.
I'll get my head back in the game but day-um, that was hard.
Headed back up north this am for job interviews. Bleah - not ready to face the hour, the drive or stuff in general
Damn - I wrote to you on this thread hours ago - and now it's gone - poof!
Good luck with the interviews. Not that you'll need it - you'll breeze through.
Will have to get my head in the right state again and see If I can remember what came to freely at 7:30
Dia - enjoy the drive.
Bollox to the "stuff in general"
Hugs
Mac
Hiya, Mac,
I knew I could count on you to post.
I don't know about everyone else, but for me, seeing a post or two in my thread really helps me keep my PMA. I feel less alone, more supported and more hopeful.
Good luck on the interview Dia.
And keep up the good work.
Dia,
I know all about those dreams. Use them to motivate yourself.
Cute banter. Keep it light. Keep shining.
Best of luck on interviews!
And the dance begins...
As I was getting ready for the interview - I had to change into interview clothes and do make-up/hair here - H complimented my outfit. Then he indirectly tried to sound me out about my plans for the evening, saying he didn't have any and was 'open'. I was diffident, saying that it depended on what happened in the interview, plus there was a movie I wanted to see.
Am I seeing that movie?? (Julie & Julia)
I'm concerned about rejecting him so much that he gives up, esp. since the handling of rejection was such an issue for both of us before the split.
What would YOU like to do dia?
Good movie? Can I come to?
Mac
As I was getting ready for the interview - I had to change into interview clothes and do make-up/hair here - H complimented my outfit. Then he indirectly tried to sound me out about my plans for the evening, saying he didn't have any and was 'open'. I was diffident, saying that it depended on what happened in the interview, plus there was a movie I wanted to see.
My take is he's asking you out without haveing to ask you out. I think you are wise to be concerned about the rejection. Play it cool until you get back from your interview, then, just as a passing thought, maybe we should go to a movie....
Thanks, Mac & GIMA - that's my take, too. Hard to know when I'm supposed to GAL and when I'm supposed to stick around. But, you have a good point. I will come home after the interview and maybe there will even be something to celebrate.
Mac - It's Julie & Julia, a chick-flick involving Julia Child.
Reviews are good, plus I like the two lead actresses.
Mac - It's Julie & Julia, a chick-flick involving Julia Child. Reviews are good, plus I like the two lead actresses.
My W read the book and said she wants to see the movie. Sorry, but I am not going to make that one. She's going to see it with one of her gf's with whom she will be taking a cake decorating class soon.
Hi dai, I have to agree with gima's take on the asking but not asking.
That doesn't stop you on making your decision. Wanna go? Sounds good?
I thought this one was an oldie with Julie Somebody from the sound of muzak?
Hehehehe
Mac
LOL, that's Julie ANDREWS. Geez, get your chick flicks straight.
Well, the interview went well and I'm pretty sure I will be hired. If so, I start tomorrow. I'm conflicted about it. It's only $13/hr for 30 hrs/week and that's SO not enough to live on around here. In fact, it won't even cover rent. But it's a job, and in the current economy, I don't see how I can turn it down. Bird in the hand and all. It's through a temp agency, so at least I can quit right away if I get something better.
I think I just goofed. H picked up that I don't seem too excited about this very low paying, can't live on it job. And it's not just I can't live on it w/ kidlet. I can't live on it by myself either. Rent for a studio around here is a grand a month. Taking a room in someone's house runs $700 - 900.
No clue how I'm going to make this work - but as God is my witness, I will.
Here's what I need help with. This is going to trigger a talk about custody at a minimum, and a full-blown R talk at worst. Any suggestions for how to handle it? He is going to suggest having kidlet live with him so I can get a cheap 1-bed or studio (which also gets him out of child support). Unless I am given a totally believable, 100% strong commitment that he will not initiate D proceedings against me and/or will work on the R, I am not willing to let kidlet live with him w/o me here in the house too.
<Dia commences hair-pulling>
How? By showing some emotion that is not directed at him?
By not being all "happy joy-joy, my life is so wonderful"?
By not being all "happy joy-joy, my life is so wonderful"?
Nah. We LBS's are still entitled (not my favorite word) to be human and have feelings.
Maybe he was disappointed that a job close to him may not pan out for you. You just never know.
So to get out of the house (and feed myself as hunger was contributing to poor mental attitude) I took the kidlet to lunch at the quaint cafe at the bottom of the hill. We had to share an entree due to finances, but that just made the experience more special. I talked to kidlet about the impending move, the school change, the likely living arrangements, etc.
Then I drove him over to see the place we'll most likely be renting. It's minimally adequate (ok, it's kind of a dive), but it's close by and offers a month-to-month lease which would accommodate moving back in together if things should go that way. When kidlet and I got back, H was tending to the outdoor plants in his container garden. Kidlet chattered excitedly at H about the rental we just saw.
I was a minute or two behind him as I'd had to gather things from the car. When I got there, H turned to me, indicated the lovely nest of spiders in the rosemary bush near the door and said, "Since you're staying, I should probably clean these out, hmm?" I'm arachnophobic, so spider-abatement is something of a running joke with us.
Excuse me - I'm staying?? WTF!?!
I just laughed and let him continue talking about how the spiders seem to have eliminated whatever little pest was eating the basil leaves planted right next to the rosemary.
I have no clue what he meant by saying I'm staying. He could mean for the week as my new job starts tomorrow. Or maybe... since the comment followed so closely on kidlet chattering about our possible apartment... maybe he means something more long-term??
I guess I'll find out soon enough.
Dia, Remember, no expectations and just be in the moment.
Yeah, until I'm told explicitly otherwise, I'm going with just the week.
Well, crapola. Now I have BOTH grandparents in the ER. Waiting for news on Gramma.
H came in to commiserate with me over the grandparent sitch. I feel helpless being here in SB while they're in the hospital.
We walked back into the office and kidlet was playing a video game involving a sandworm. The graphics were 80's vintage, so the first jokes were scatological as the worm looked, well, scatological. Then the worm breached and dove back into the ground, promting a cry of "Shai Hulud!!" from yours truly. (A Dune reference for you non sci-fi geeks)
So I remarked to H, "Wow, I could totally watch that movie." And H came back with, "Good. Let's watch it tonight." I only steal from the best, so I responded with , "Deal!"
Then the phone rang - so see next post.
For all intents and purposes, my grandmother is gone. My grandfather was discharged today and a friend drove Gramma to pick him up. She was getting the wheelchair out of the trunk of the car when she just collapsed. We don't know yet if it was a heart attack, stroke, she hit her head or what but when the paramedics arrived, there was no pulse. By the time she reached the hospital, they had gotten her heart restarted but they are still unsure about brain function. She has a Do Not Resuscitate order in place which my grandfather temporarily halted until we know a little more.
H is being wonderful - hugs, emotional support, etc.
And you can probably guess where I am. I should have been there. I should have stayed with her and gotten him myself but my mother told me to go north to pursue the jobs. That wheelchair was too heavy for her to manage. I didn't want to drive up today. I wanted to stay down south to make sure they were ok. $13/hour is not worth the last days or hours of my grandparents' lives.
Can I get off this ride, please?
Dia,
I'm very sorry for you.
And you can probably guess where I am. I should have been there. I should have stayed with her and gotten him myself but my mother told me to go north to pursue the jobs. That wheelchair was too heavy for her to manage. I didn't want to drive up today. I wanted to stay down south to make sure they were ok. $13/hour is not worth the last days or hours of my grandparents' lives.
Give yourself a break. You have a lot on your plate, and you did not know this was going to happen.
Don't beat yourself up.
Thanks, GIMA.
Yeah, it was a freak thing but I was raised Catholic. Guilt R Us.
On the up-side, my last words to her were, "I love you," and she told me that I've always been her favorite grand-daughter (not like I'll repeat that to my sibs).
At least I got to say good-bye?
Thanks, GIMA.
Yeah, it was a freak thing but I was raised Catholic. Guilt R Us.
On the up-side, my last words to her were, "I love you," and she told me that I've always been her favorite grand-daughter (not like I'll repeat that to my sibs).
At least I got to say good-bye?
I am so sorry. I can completely relate with the Catholic guilt but you shouldn't have any right now. The fact that you had this closure is huge. And yes, I would say it was a goodbye. You got to tell her that you loved her which is the HUGEST! Take care of yourself and do not beat yourself up any longer.
Thank you, LuLu.
Interestingly enough, my last conversation with my Grandmother was about her marriage. She said she'd had 62 years of mostly good marriage and she hoped they both lived long enough to see 63.
May we all have that same blessing.
Dia,
My thoughts and prayers are with you and yours.
"May we all have that same blessing"
Amen
Mac
Thanks, folks.
Despondent. That's a good word for me at the moment. H has been awesome. Lots of hugs, stroked my hair, stroked my arm - there was even a moment when I thought he was going to lean in and kiss me. Kidlet sort of put the kibosh on the movie date - not kidlet's fault. It sort of just didn't happen the way I think we thought it would.
So here I am on the frikken couch. H has been wonderful and the hugs have had more and more tenderness in them but God it would have been nice to sleep in the Master bed. Not just to be close to H - and hell yes I'd have been hoping he'd hold me - but also because the Master bed is such this safe and sacred place. Just being in the room was soothing for me. Was it too much to ask to sleep there?? (venting)
Yeah, it was and I didn't ask but sodditall, I wish he'd offered. He did offer me the futon in the guest room but that's where I slept when things got really bad and no way in heck am I going back into that room with those feelings in it.
Grump!!
Gramma - we'll never know exactly what happened, but she has a fractured skull, a collapsed lung from the CPR and 1st and 2nd degree burns on her back from laying so long on the hot pavement. (And boy does that last one just break my heart.) She is on life support, but because of the DNR order, it will be withdrawn once the family has had time to gather. She is not expected to regain consciousness.
I will go for the funeral, but the good-bye I had with her is a far better way for me to remember her than in the hospital. The family are all in shock. Her health was so much better than his that we expected her to outlive him by several years. When he went into the hospital this week, we were worried that *he* might not come out. Nobody ever thought we'd lose Gramma instead.
Her birthday was Aug. 23rd.
Her ICU nurse is my sister's high school sweetheart. He recognized Gramma when she came in and has been at her bedside almost non-stop. My sister's cell phone was dead today, and Charlie drove to her house to tell her because none of us could get her on the phone.
He's divorced; so is she. Would be interesting to see if they rekindle something after this.
Oh Dia, Im so sorry. I know that right now it might be hard to see, but I am so thankful that you get to remember her as healthy, vibrant and loving, and that you got that goodbye, thats pretty special. I hope that your H can look past recent difficulties and be there for you.
Dont beat yourself up over what you could have done, when its your time, its your time, and it sounds like she had a wonderful life.
I agree, hopefully we will all have the same blessing!
(((Dia)))
Looks like I'll be walking on the beach today (see relevant post in Smiley's thread.)
Venting
I'm angry today. It does help that I know anger is just a different flavor of pain, but I'm angry that on top of everything else, I have to be getting a flipping apartment right now in the middle of all of this. And I'm angry that I can't even sleep in the master bed with my flipping husband. And most of all, I'm angry at him for not being able or willing to step out of his own hurt/anger shell.
Now go back and replace 'angry' with 'hurt'. Same diff.
I am not being angry at or around H, but the feelings are there.
And for what it's worth, I'm also extremely grateful that H has been so loving and supportive, and this makes me love/want him more than ever.
I'll take Emotional Messes for 500, Alex.
I'll take Emotional Messes for 500, Alex.
Alex - "Oh, that sound means it's the Daily Double. Here's the clue: My Happiness."
Dia - "What I am responsible for?"
DING DING DING
Hi Dia.
Praying for you.
Recognize the down side of the rollercoaster for what it is: the down side of the rollercoaster. Let it run it's couse, knowing it will end. Leave it at the beach today.
Those dam$ expectations will bite you every time. Completely understandable. Shake it off and get back with the plan.
You can do it.
Thank you, Gentlemen.
Ok, I am firmly grasping my own bootstraps and getting on with the day and my life in general. Mundania - laundry, banking, have to go to training for the new job, etc but it has to be done and I'm the only one who can make it happen.
Time to hit the shower and get my game face on.
At issue today:
1) Kidlet is not yet registered for the school here and there is the possibility that the school may be full. This was H's responsibility to take care of and he has not done so. This is not my issue to fix, right? Normally, when this stuff happens, I save him. Does it matter that a child-related issue is at stake?
2) Pursuant to this, kidlet's school starts two weeks from yesterday and H is still allowing kidlet to stay up until sometime between 10 and 11:30 ish. There will be a very rude awakening (for kidlet) if this is still going on when school starts. I have been hands-off about this. H's house, H's rules, not my place to interfere. Advice?
Thanks,
Back-to-business Dia
Dia,
1. I think a decision @ kidlet is a joint decision. He comes 1st. So, my $0.02 worth is just as H if kidlet has been registered. Don't blame H - just ask then see what he says.
2. See # 1.
When you were not in the area, it made sense for H to sign him up for school. Now that you are there, it's 50/50 who should do it. If you want it done right, do it yourself.
I'm not sure if it's the Southern in me, the Irish or the X chromosome but I am doing what any good Irish/Southern girl would do under these circumstances - strap on the kitchen apron and bake.
Berry cobbler, hot and sweet and made for a scoop of vanilla ice cream.
Did my job training and wowed my coach.
Dropped off apartment application.
Checked out registration schedule and procedures for kidlet's school.
Saw an article on the Perseid meteor shower which peaks tonight and sent H a link with a two-word email:
"Wanna watch?"
You can break out the 2x4s for pursuing if you want to, but this is on the advice of my DB coach.
Dia, sounds like you had a better day. No 2x4 from me. Plan sounds just fine.
Oh, and the cobbler sounds great! I love the vanilla ice cream right next to it once the ice cream has just started to soften and a little mixes with the berry.
My W loves to bake, and she is very good at it.
Anyway, have fun tonight no matter what.
Thanks, GIMA.
I am made up, coiffed, smelling good, attractively dressed and standing in a kitchen smelling of cobbler. If the man doesn't want me, he's a dam$ fool.
Cobbler went over really well - H was awestruck. He'd never seen one made that wasn't in a dutch oven in a hole in the ground with a bunch of boy scouts - and mine tasted better!
Funny convo - he called me around 5 pm but I had run out to get real butter as all he had was this olive oil margarine stuff.
H: Hey! I'm at Vons. Would you like anything?
Dia: How funny! I'm at Von's, too. Which one are you at?
H: Oh, no! I'm at the one in LC.
Dia: Ahh, I'm at the one on L Ave.
So we laughed and discussed who was picking up what.
Around 8 pm, kidlet wanted to play Monopoly but I was toast - too many late and/or rotten nights.
H: Before we take over your bedroom, Mom (the LR), when do you want to go to bed?
Dia: Yesterday!
(laughter)
I suggested that I go and sleep in his room. That would get me out of the way of the LR traffic and he could wake me when he wanted to go to bed. He said it sounded like a plan.
OMG - the Master bed is comfy. The linens and down comforter are amazing.
So then I slept like the dead until just after midnight. It was foggy here, so no Perseids last night. Some sound woke me about 12:15. I ventured out still half asleep to find H bedding down on the futon.
Dia (sleepily): H, what are you doing?
H: Going to bed. Enjoy your night in the big bed.
Dia: No, go sleep in your bed. I'll move.
H: No, no. I'm being selfless. Go back to sleep, love. I'll wake you in the morning.
Dia: So come be selfless in the bed then.
He made a noise like he was really considering it but in the end, he demurred. I muzzily reached down and gave his arm three squeezes - family code for "I love you."
Than I got an amazing night's sleep in the MBR.
Another small sign - when he walked in the door, he called out, "Hi, people!" It used to be 'Hi, family!' but the inflection was the same.
He called me love!!! <Dia does the happy dance>
There are tiny baby steps all over the place but I'm trying not to get too excited.
I
knew he still loved me!
Dia,
Good signs. Just reign in those expectations.
Not trying to be the downer here. Just want you to keep your guard up.
Cobbler went over really well - H was awestruck. He'd never seen one made that wasn't in a dutch oven in a hole in the ground with a bunch of boy scouts - and mine tasted better!
Funny convo - he called me around 5 pm but I had run out to get real butter as all he had was this olive oil margarine stuff.
H: Hey! I'm at Vons. Would you like anything?
Dia: How funny! I'm at Von's, too. Which one are you at?
H: Oh, no! I'm at the one in LC.
Dia: Ahh, I'm at the one on L Ave.
So we laughed and discussed who was picking up what.
Around 8 pm, kidlet wanted to play Monopoly but I was toast - too many late and/or rotten nights.
H: Before we take over your bedroom, Mom (the LR), when do you want to go to bed?
Dia: Yesterday!
(laughter)
I suggested that I go and sleep in his room. That would get me out of the way of the LR traffic and he could wake me when he wanted to go to bed. He said it sounded like a plan.
OMG - the Master bed is comfy. The linens and down comforter are amazing.
So then I slept like the dead until just after midnight. It was foggy here, so no Perseids last night. Some sound woke me about 12:15. I ventured out still half asleep to find H bedding down on the futon.
Dia (sleepily): H, what are you doing?
H: Going to bed. Enjoy your night in the big bed.
Dia: No, go sleep in your bed. I'll move.
H: No, no. I'm being selfless. Go back to sleep, love. I'll wake you in the morning.
Dia: So come be selfless in the bed then.
He made a noise like he was really considering it but in the end, he demurred. I muzzily reached down and gave his arm three squeezes - family code for "I love you."
Than I got an amazing night's sleep in the MBR.
Another small sign - when he walked in the door, he called out, "Hi, people!" It used to be 'Hi, family!' but the inflection was the same.
He called me love!!! <Dia does the happy dance>
There are tiny baby steps all over the place but I'm trying not to get too excited.
I
knew he still loved me!
Great, now dial back a little and give him the space to move forward. Be patient, keep the PMA up and no expectations.
Cheers
Dia,
You doin' good girl
LOVE IT
I'm more than a little jealous. But my time will come
Mac
Like what? How far? I'm not going to inveigle to get into the master bed again - unless he shows some interest in that. I plan on acting like I'm back on the couch, yes?
Can I get some more examples, please? I already made dinner, so too late for that.
No expectations... No Expectations.... Isn't that a book by Dickens?
Mac, COach and GIMA - thank you so much for stopping by. I rally appreciate the support.
I don't have a computer at work for the moment, so I'm off to make the rounds as fast as I can before H gets home.
Hmmm, H came home all happy and sniffing eagerly at the dish in the oven. He complimented me twice in about 6 minutes but did not initiate a hug or kiss - I didn't either. One compliment - on the weightloss/looseness of my jeans - was accompanied by a playfully lewd tickling/grabbing sort of gesture (ooh la la) and the other compliment was on my perfume.
Here, kitty, kitty.
Re: expectations - ya know, I'm so darn happy atm that I'm just having fun seeing what happens next.
What a good night Dia! I agree on the no expectations, and yes, act like you fully expect to be sent back to the couch, in fact, if you do expect to be out on the couch, you wont be disappointed if he doesnt invite you to bed.
Baby steps! Let him initiate EVERYTHING! And when he does, take that slow.
I hope that the roll your on continues, but if it doesnt, dont forget that this being called a rollercoaster, isnt by mistake!
my wife put her cheek out so that i could kiss it no more than 1 hour ago.
I don't know what that means, but its a whole lot better than tears and anger.
I am responding to the playful banter in-kind, so when he made the tickle gesture, I waggled my hips and tugged out my waistband to show how loose they were. This was followed by a waggle of his eyebrows as he surveyed the relevant real estate.
He also whipped out a bottle of wine to go with supper and clinked glasses in a wordless toast.
He does occasional contract work, so there's a project he needs to work on tonight. He excused himself to go do it and I responded with a light and happy. "Ok, cool. Have fun!"
And ya know what? My love tank must be uncharacteristically full because I don't feel abandoned at all. I'm perfectly content, in fact. How odd.
Well slap me thrice and hand me to me mother! The H cat just got in my lap!
Kidlet has been excited about the meteor shower since he found out about it yesterday. We've been fogged in though, can't even see the sky much less the meteors. Undeterred, kidlet wanted to give stargazing a try. So kidlet dragged a sleeping bag and I dragged a blanket out to the big rope hammock on the back deck. Kidlet and I had been there about 15 minutes chatting and fog-gazing when H wandered out.
Every other time H has joined kidlet and me in a seating arrangement like this (such as a couch) he's been careful to put kidlet in between us.
We were laying the short way on the hammock, with our legs hanging over the edge - easier to rock it that way. H looked at us for a moment then sidled in next to ME. I lifted a corner of my blanket and he snuggled himself under it. Think 3 people in a hammock now - arms and legs all jumbled together and gravity pretty much ensuring that H and I were cuddled up together. My head was on his shoulder, his arm interlinked with mine, full on total body length cuddle - and he didn't pull away - not one bit. He didn't reach to hold or caress me either but holy cow!! He stayed for maybe 10 minutes but with both of us in shorts and him with only part of a blanket it got cold for him out there. (Well, one side was warm anyway. ;))
When he went back inside, he went straight to the MBR closet and got a jacket, hence my thought that he was cold. However... said jacket rides low on the nether regions and I suspect he may be hiding a very positive reaction to the cuddle.
I am tickled pink and LMAO.
Edit: OMG - it's not a jacket; it's a bathrobe ... that goes to his knees. LMAO even more!!!
And no, I'm not snooping or stalking him. There are french doors from the MBR to the deck so I saw him get the robe but it was just a silhouette. He just walked by and he's got a bathrobe over his clothes.
My love tank must be uncharacteristically full because I don't feel abandoned at all. I'm perfectly content, in fact. How odd.
This and the follow up post - fabulous.
Dia - holly cow indeed
Enjoy your evening (morning?).
Mac
He's pacing the kitchen in distraction now, tho - poor kitty.
Dia - stop banging the keyboard and enjoy!
Mac
Well, am expecting a pullback. Last night was just too good. After the hammock, he paced around the house, couldn't settle anywhere, went to his computer, got a book, got a different book, nearly dropped his cobbler and finally settled on the opposite end of the couch as me with his toes tucked under my blanket while we both read. Think 'wet cat'.
I slept on the couch which is exactly what I expected, so no problem there. I sort of wonder if he just expected me to get into the master bed or expected me to ask?
I am content this morning, though there is much administrivia to take care of.
The pot has been stirred and not by me.
Yesterday before work I mentioned to FIL that with all the universities in the area and school starting up so soon, landlords were holding tight to their rent amounts and the competition for apartments was pretty fierce. Rental agents had told me that if I could wait until mid-Sept, that rents would probably drop.
FIL spoke to H about me waiting until October to find a place and H agreed. So apparently, I am staying until at least the end of Sept.
This sheds new light on the hammock incident last night since the convo between H and FIL happened prior to the jumble on the hammock.
Guess I have 30 days to DB my arse off, huh?
Any input?
dia - Get on with it
Great stuff dia - and what did you do to steer event's in this direction?
Honest question. Honest reply would be......
Mac
Well, I tihnk the hardcore DBing while I've been here in small doses helped immensely. I think H has less of a knee-jerk reaction against me now.
I have been pretty open with FIL about 'things', my desire to reconcile, etc. I also knew that me asking H directly would probably get a negative result. I did not ask FIL to talk to H - FIL agreed, but I confess that I was hoping he would.
Simple truth is, I won't qualify for an apartment at present just on pure math. Rent for a 2 bed place is $1600. $13/hour for 30 hrs a week is.. about $1600. I needed to wait for sheer financial reasons if nothing else and since I can't stay with the D-'s, staying here is the next logical step.
Not sure if that answers your question or not.
I'm ambivalent about it to tell the truth. It raises the stakes considerably. I'm a bit shaken and some fear is creeping in, truth be told.
H was out of sorts this morning, not snarky but a bit withdrawn and preoccupied. He recently re-injured a rotator cuff, though so there's every chance it's not related to me.
I'm driving down south tomorrow to be with the family for the weekend, so that will take some of the pressure off. Also need to get a storage unit so I can ferry some of my stuff into it for the interim.
Oh - an apparently H has planned a sleepover for kidlet and a friend tonight. Here. This means I cannot sleep in the LR.
Gonna be interesting.
though so there's every chance it's not related to me.
Dia, I'd take that stance on everything related to your H. That's the stance I am trying to take with everything my W does.
It helps with the detachment part. I still have feelings like this, but instead of reacting to them I know do a little mental excersize something like so.
-Hmm. I am felling {Insert felling here) because my W said/did/did not say or do, etc..
-Ok, I understand that feeling, and it's because I am thinking X,Y,Z about this.
-Ok, that's my thinking of this, but I CAN't know what my W is thinking, etc. So I can now let that go!
Thanks, IW.
That's pretty much what I am doing. Before, I would take every bad mood of his personally - surely it meant that he was upset or unhappy with ME. Well, BS to that. It's not all about me. (Imagine that!) Before, I would then pester him with "Are you ok? What's wrong? You're mad at me, aren't you?" etc. Not helpful.
So this is one of my larger 180s.
If it's about me, it's his job to tell me. Unless I am told; I am free to assume it's not about me. And if it's not about me, it probably also falls under the heading of 'not my problem to solve.'
Kinda freeing, eh?
Wow, I just re-read my note to you, and my spelling is atrocious..
But yes, it's kind of freeing! However, I need to practice this everyday, all day, and all the time, so I don't fall back into the same pattern you describe above about being all about us!
Tough day - Gramma was taken off life support this afternoon.
I had another job interview, this time for a permanent position. It went well though there are some hoops to jump before it's officially mine.
H is out with friends tonight.
Wow, that I forgot to post this says a lot about where my head is at atm.
Called H around 1 pm today to get FIL's cell number. He was laughing on the phone with me because of the way I had phrased the request and in the background, a co-worker asked him who he was talking to.
H (off to the side): It's my wife.
Hmmm, cool. Even tho we're not divorced, he's been calling me his ex-wife as far as I know, including to my face. Even in a dark day, it felt good to hear the W word.
GRUMP!!!
Venting...
Great. Just friggen' great. My grandmother got taken off life support today so the rational human being might - just might - think that possibly tonight I would need some of that milk of human kindness stuff.
FIL went to the town next door to do FIL stuff.
Kidlet is on a sleepover at the other kid's house.
H is having movie night with friends at their place.
And I am left alone all by my godd@mn self.
I'm headed down the hill to find some food that I don't have to cook myself.
Dia, Im sorry about your tough day! Use the time to take a bath, or do something really great for yourself.
It sounds like things are really going well with your H though, besides him abandoning you tonight. I guess try to not let it get you down? I dont know, its pretty lame that he isnt there for you right now...
Good Morning Dia,
By now you should have eaten. Something with lots and LOTS of garlic I hope
Dia, when you want some of that milk - you'll find yourself drowning in the stuff.
Hope you enjoyed some quality time for yourself.
Chin up
HUGS
Mac
Gramma was removed from life support around 4:30 and she passed shortly after 6 pm. My mother and sister were there with her, and she's in a better place. When I look up at the sky at night and see the shooting stars, I know she it there.
H got back around 9 pm last night. I was absolutely emotionally exhausted. I probably shouldn't have asked, but I said I would like to sleep in the master bed that night just to not be alone. I did not please or beg, there was strength in stating what I wanted.
He stared at the floor a long time then told me yes, but only f we didn't touch. Rejection time!! If I hadn't goofed by asking, I'm pretty sure I did goof when I backed off saying that if he was uncomfortable, I would just sleep on the couch.
I went to the couch, cried and regrouped for 10 mins or so then dusted myself off and went back to the side of the bed.
"Can I get a do-over? Is the offer for no touching still good?"
He said it was, so I climbed in and we both went to sleep. It's a Cal king bed, so there were at least three feet between us, but being in there at all was extremely soothing, it felt 'right' and it *was* just what I needed at the time.
And there was no touching - until morning. When we woke up, he reached out and held my hand, pulled it to his lips and kissed my fingertips. I gave him three squeezes and he returned them. He said my leg looked awful pretty in the moonlight. I pointed out that he couldn't see my legs at present.
"No, last night when I got up. Your nightgown took a walk and you were just beautiful."
I thanked him and was rewarded with another three squeezes. Then we laid there holding hands until the cats came in and demanded to be fed.
@ blue - thank you, blue. In general though, he's been wonderful and supportive for me, so I can't really fault him in the overall.
@ Mac - Thanks, Mac. I went to the mom and pop surf shack and burger joint (does that translate?) at the bottom of the hill and got myself a double sourdough bacon cheeseburger and an order of sweet potato fries. I could only eat half, so I shared with FIL after he got home. It was just what the Dr. ordered.
dia - my sincere condolences to you and your family.
(((((((((((dia)))))))))))))
I glad the H gave you a little of what you wanted. That really would have been the pits if he'd snubbed you.
Good on you dia.
Catch you later.
Mac
Oh, and note to self...
Twice now, when I've gotten a bigtime smackdown from him, I have felt that overwhelming, blinding pain, urge to run. To just get in the car, drive away and never come back. Anything to get away from the pain. It's the exact same feeling I was in the grips of when I left 2 years ago. Leaving then was understandable, but it was the coward's way out and I've since decided it was a mistake.
So twice now, I've experienced the feeling, gritted my teeth, dug in my heels and NOT run away. It's a 180 of major proportions, and it's Good for Me. In not running, I am standing up for myself and not giving him or a situation the power to make me miserable or drive me away.
It is not easy. I have to struggle and fight it every time it happens. But I'm doing it.
(((((Dia)))))
My condolences to you and your family at this time.
Hi, Serenity,
Thank you for stopping by with hugs and good thoughts.
I'm ok with it at the moment. I'm sure I'll break down in tears again when I get with the family, but Gramma is pain free and happy now, so I'm happy for her.
----------------------
Back to the sitch...
H initiated his first 'leaving for work' hug in all the visits I've been up here for. It was a really great hug, too. Kidlet saw us and joined in, calling himself the peanut butter in the hug sandwich. I dropped a kiss on the side of H's neck. Not planned, not agonized over - happened so fast and naturally that it probably surprised both of us - pleasantly, I hope.
H initiated his first 'leaving for work' hug in all the visits I've been up here for. It was a really great hug, too. Kidlet saw us and joined in, calling himself the peanut butter in the hug sandwich. I dropped a kiss on the side of H's neck. Not planned, not agonized over - happened so fast and naturally that it probably surprised both of us - pleasantly, I hope.
These rituals and history are good signs. Let him come to you seems to be working.
We do the same things in our family. Depending on the mood the kids could be the "baloney" in the sandwhich. We do the three squeezes for ILY as well, then we add the two squeezes back for "How much?" then you get a BIG squeeze. You can squeese down the line if all of you are holding hands.
Hi, Coach,
Thank you for stopping in. I worried I'd really put my foot in my mouth when I asked about the master bed, but it seemed to work out ok in the end.
We do 4 squeezes back for "I love you back", then we do a flutter of squeezes for "I love you a hundred million seventy-eight thousand and then some."
Kidlet started the the hundred million part. It used to be verbal.
Dia: I love you, punkin.
Kidlet:I love you back.
Dia: I love you a hundred! (several squeezes)
Kidlet; I love you a million! (lots more squeezes)
Dia: I love you <biggest made up number we can think of>!
Kidlet: I love you infinity!!! (this person 'wins' and everyone laughs)
Dia,
Really sorry to hear about your loss.
Thank you, Gima,
We're in the same boat, you and I. But a) there are doughnuts, and b) at least it's not sinking.
Dia, so sorry about your grandmother.
I just wanted, too, to pop in and say how very impressed I am with how you've been handling yourself. The payoffs aren't, of course, entirely under your control ... but they ain't accidents, either.
I was wondering if you've read "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch. You are already practicing some of his precepts, and for some reason you just "sound" like a person this book would really resonate with. I highly recommend it.
The apartment where I put in the app just called. I can have it.
It's about 2 blocks from H's place, month-to-month lease, enough space. It's not fabulous but it's minimally adequate. It's also too expensive at $1650/month. I might be able to negotiate the rent down but given the progress in the sitch, maybe I should let it go?
In my convo with H this morning, I told him I was getting a storage unit, and that we could spend some time going through the house (which is way crammed with stuff from a previous downsizing move), get rid of things, put stuff in storage, etc. He said this was a good thing and it's a plan.
I put the apartment people off til Monday so I could 'go over my finances and make sure I'm making the right decision.'
I'm clear to stay here with H until around the beginning of October, and if done right, I think I might be here for good.
Do I take the apt or let it go?? Do I talk to H and let him know it's there, or do I tell him it was too expensive, what?
Thanks!!
Dia,
My thoughts and condolences are with your family. Hope your doing well today, even though it's been a bit of a roller coaster week for you. Keep your hopes up!
Hi, Kettricken!!
Thank you for the kind words and the book recommendation. I have not read it, but maybe I will stop by a bookstore on my drive today. I could use a bit of retail therapy at present.
Btw, do you have an ongoing, current thread? I see you pop in to other people's places, but having trouble finding yours.
Cheers!
Dia
Hi Dia, Im so sorry for your loss. But your right, she is in a better place. Sounds like you had a good morning.
I would let the apt go. Is it likely that you will be able to find another place between now and Oct, if thats what it comes to? It didnt sound like a very good place for you and your son from your discription as minimally adequate. So I would just let it go and move on, its not what you really want anyway!
I used to hang in Sex Starved Marriage, but (a) my marriage is no long sex-starved (wink) and (b) there was a bit of friction (mass bannings, etc) awhile back and a lot of us upped stakes and regrouped on a private board. The moderation on this board is not what one could call consistent, fluctuating wildly between draconian and seemingly-nonexistent. Anyhow, I do more drive-bys here these days.
Ok, as it stands, taking the apartment is wrong for me at this time. On pure pragmatics, it's too expensive and I do not have a job in hand that will pay for it. As regarding my sitch, we're in a very good progress/wait-and-see mode. While this next bit might be fear-based, it's also probably accurate.
H is just beginning to connect, to open up a little, to re-forge bonds with me. If I leave now, I think he will shut down, shut off and retrench with OW.
To recap on the OW, she lives about 2k miles away and they only see each other in person a few times a year. I do not consider this relationship a betrayal (though it does hurt) because it was started in good faith pretty deep into our separation with papers filed, etc. Yes, she needs to go away for us to fully proceed, but I am acting as if she doesn't exist for the most part and my DB Coach agrees.
Ain't no way in heck that an LDR can compete with a sassy, happy, DBing WIFE who is right at his fingertips.
As things continue to improve with us, she will drop away. And if she doesn't, I will issue an ultimatum - but that's down the road and may not be needed.
In fact, the longer I live here, the more it will complicate their relationship and, well - GOOD! I don't know if she knows I'm here, but it will become very hard for him to hide it and any decisions about how/what/if to tell her are his to wrestle with, not mine.
I have not yet notified the apartment people that I will not be taking it, so you guys have a day or so to administer 2x4s if you think I need them.
I'm heading down to the desert for the weekend to be with family. I left my stuffed kitty-cat on H's side of the bed with an origami love note between its paws. The written message is simple - "Thank you for being so wonderful. Please take care of my kitty until I get back. (hand drawn heart)- Dia"
The medium is the message?
As an added bonus, since I sleep with the kitty, my perfume is all over it, as well as on one of H's bathrobes that he loaned me.
We did have a telephone good-bye, but it was businesslike - kidlet's with your Dad, there's defrosted chicken in the crisper, etc. There was also this awkward pause (maybe only awkward for him) where he seemed to struggle over saying ILY at the end, but he needed to say it first, so I didn't.
Behave, you lot!
Dia,
Thanks for sending me here. I just read most of your sich. As you know if you read mine, I was struggling for work a long time. I have a job now that I won't loose but it does not have enough hours. I have family support where I live. Wife lives in New Orleans. There is probably no reason for me to go there but it seems to me that the distance between us has made so many things impossible. I wish I could go to NO and work from there but there is no reason to if she still resents me.
Hi Dia,
I've been following along......
Sending you affirmation for your patience and for your dedication. You're getting there!
All the best
Cas
Thanks Dia for your reply to my sitch. There are similarities for sure in our sitch's. Im glad to hear your H has the alcohol under control. I don't know if that is possible for mine. It sounds like you are doing all the right things and you are getting some response. So glad for you! Keep at it! The veterans here know their stuff. Though I'm not new here, I haven't posted in a while. I will be checking in on you!
Good morning dai,
Hope the weekend went well for you.
Gotta tell us all about it.
I really hope H loved hugging kitty
And I think we behaved like any normal adult would over the weekend
(((((dia)))))
Mac
Hi, all,
I am back at H's. The weekend with the family held the expected amounts of laughter and tears given the situation. We are worried that this will dramatically hasten my grandfather's decline. Nothing to do for that except support him then wait and see.
The dance has already begun with H. He is complimentary, warm, and flirtatious, He was glad to see me, hugged me and cupped my cheek in his hand and told me I was pretty. But I am still sleeping on the couch, which I expected so no big deal.
When he put his hand to my cheek, I turned slightly and kissed the inside of his palm. I meant it as a sweet gesture but he almost immediately dropped his hands to cover his crotch and scurried out of the room. Apparently I still have a dramatic effect on him physically.
He comes to me to initiate conversation and he draws it out. He proactively sits next to me on the couch now. If I cook or clean, he is very appreciative.
Things are very, very good - all things considered. My guess on him not wanting me is the big bed with him is two-fold, ok, maybe three-fold:
1) He thinks he is being loyal and faithful to OW. (I got news for him - OW would already be having seven kinds of hissy fit if she could see how he interacts with me.
)
2) He isn't ready for the emotional entanglement sleeping with me would entail.
3) He knows that if I'm there next to him, he eventually won't be able to resist the temptation, so he's heading it off at the pass.
I am handling this with patience and good humor, all of which is greatly helped by the rest of our interactions being so good.
I will see if I can make the rounds today.
Have a great day, everyone.
Melancholy day today. Grieving sucks. It's not the sobbing puddle of goo grieving, but the long, slow ache grieving.
Dia,
I know exactly what you mean. I had a 4 hour drive last night alone. Gave me a lot of time to think about things. Beautiful sky as I drove north. I couldn't help but imagine how long and full a life my grandfather had. And that made me smile.
Journalling - the night's recap:
Got kidlet registered for school.
Got hired for a new, better paying position.
Secured a storage unit and unloaded my car into it.
Things with H today were very low-key and relaxed but also very companionable. It was a quiet day for me, and I let him know that it was about Gramma, not him. He took me to lunch when he heard I'd gotten the new job. There were jokes, hugs and compliments - he looked straight into my face and told me I looked good.
At one point we were talking with kidlet about making some changes to his room, and kidlet countered with, "I thought Mom and I were getting an apartment?" I didn't know how to answer that, so I just looked at H and let him do it.
H: Maybe. (and the silence dragged out)
H: It depends on what Mom finds.
Interesting. I'm not sure what to make of the maybe, especially since the second part seemed like a scrambling afterthought to fill the silence. Time is my friend right now.
This evening after kidlet went to bed, he went to his computer to work on his game and I took a book to sit in the window seat near him and read. There was occasional conversation - a sentence or three here or there - but no pressure to interact and I wasn't being actively engaging or vivacious. The result, far from being distant, was a companionable, shared silence. Togetherness even though we were doing different things.
There was a particular moment where I was looking at him and smiling - he looked very good to me at that point and I was reflecting on how good it felt just being quiet together - he looked over, saw me and said, "You're smiling. You must be happy."
I kept the smile and responded with, "Yes, I am."
At bedtime, he initiated a goodnight hug and told me I smelled good.
Note to self: There was a lesson for me here. When he goes to the computer I used to feel excluded and rejected, but by taking my book and reading near him, I converted abandonment into *drumroll* Quality Time. Another big 180 from me.
He has standing plans for Thursday night, so I am going out that night, too. FIL will be here to watch kidlet and I want to make sure I don't create an unspoken assumption that I will automatically be available to watch kidlet whenever he has plans. Would I mind watching kidlet? No. But he does need to consult with me, and I get to have plans, too.
Oh yeah - bought myself a present today. Passionate Marriage. Splurged on a new copy and overnight delivery. $14. Arrives tomorrow.
Hi Dia,
I like where this is going. I couldn't read your whole story but I can imagine the fear and turmoil you must have gone through to get to this point.
I am happy for you.
Dia,
All sounds good. Keep it up, nice and steady.
Hi, Gima and X2,
Well, had our first mini-snit this morning. FIL was supposed to arrive last night. Every other time that I've been here, he gets in between 11 and midnight. We go to bed, leave the door unlocked and he just comes in when he arrives.
Middle of the night potty run - no FIL.
6:45 alarm - no FIL.
Passing H in the hallway, I told him that his father hadn't arrived. I was definitely concerned. FIL is mid-70s and it's a long drive alone at night.
H actually upbraided me! He didn't yell, but he was very clearly angry/annoyed.
"I don't worry about Dad when he's late. Sometimes he gets delayed. He gets here when he gets here. So stop it with your worried voice and looks of concern because you're making ME worry."
<Dia blinks in surprise>
<Dia puts on the DB mask real quick-like>
<smiling cheerfully> "You're right. You know his pattern far better than I do. I apologize and I shouldn't have worried."
Then I told him coffee was ready and hit the shower.
X2 - I'm really slammed at present. I'd love to offer you some support beyond you just reading my sitch but for the interim if there's something you'd like my opinion on, feel free to ask me or bring it up here. I've lurked in your thread and I do agree with the suggestions to go a bit dark for awhile. The anger and resentment she's feeling may not be entirely logical, but feelings often aren't. Validate if you can and let her process them on her own.
Oh yeah - tidbit from yesterday...
We were discussing kidlet's room and whether to move him to a diff room in the house. H expressed his views and I said, "I agree 100% with everything you've said. Sounds great." I wasn't even DBing - I really did agree.
He did a double take, struck a Superman pose and said, "I like hearing you say that." I laughed and asked him if he wanted to hear it again.
Question (because I can't remember) .... were there past problems in your r. because of you being (and/or him perceiving that you were being) nitpicky/nagging/controlling/always the one with fourteen good reasons why any path was problematic?
Hope that didn't come across snarky ... it wasn't meant to .... I just wanted to make a point but there's no point in going there if the above *wasn't* a problem for you guys, so I asked first.
Hi, Kett,
Your input is always welcome and you didn't sound snarky.
I'm not sure if H would have used the word controlling, but I know he felt like he was never allowed to be 'right'. So maybe that's in the ballpark of the point you were going to make?
I have backed way off on those kinds of things unless life or limb are at risk.
Example (the new Dia): H is cooking veggies on the grill. I suggest he brush them with olive oil. I suggest it once and once only and I completely detach from whether or not he does AND from whether or not there are negative consequences if he doesn't. And then I praise him for something else associated with the meal. The old Dia would have brought up the oilive oil again - and probably again - and then gotten upset if he didn't use it and the veggies were inedible (e.g. "You never listen to me!")
The world will not end because of veggies that are half burned, half raw. Not a battle worth fighting. If H detects that the veggies were unpalatable, maybe next time he will try the olive oil, or maybe not. No biggie. H is happy with the praise and the meal didn't get spoiled by me obsessing about the ding-blasted olive oil.
Example 2: I drive H's car and the breaks are bad. I tell H I think the brakes are bad but he says they're fine. I calmly restate my position on the brakes and I draw a boundary that neither kidlet or I will ride in that car until the brakes are examined by a mechanic. The interesting part is that in the old marriage, H would be more angry if the mechanic DID find a prob. with the brakes than if he didn't. I sorta don't get that one unless it just means that H is a bit insecure when faced with a sitch where I do happen to be correct about something?
Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing I meant. I have to fight a tendency to do that too. My h. is brilliant and awesome but really the "absent-minded professor" type. Day-to-day practical details thus tend to fall largely inside my sphere. Which is all fine. But the temptation if you're not *actively fighting it* is to start vibing "maternal/mommy knows best" which is a kick in the nuts of any male ego and antithetical to attraction even if you *are* right about how best to cook veggies, maintain the car, etc, etc. Ya really gotta pick your battles, and even if you *have* to throw down (as with the brakes), try to soften the blow if poss.
(I totally get what you're saying about him being more pissy if the mechanic DID find something wrong with the brakes. Take-away message: my wife was right about something that is "supposed to be a guy thing" and I was wrong. I feel bad/guilty/less-than about that, so I'm going to take it out on she who pointed out my failings in the first place. That's childish, but grokkable.)
Anyhow, it sounds like you're really aware of that dynamic now.
As far as the "worried about his dad" interaction, it's good that you didn't engage, but I don't think you needed to pendulum all the way back to invalidating your own feelings. He has the adult choice to resist becoming infected by your emotions (Have you gotten ahold of "Passionate Marriage" yet?)
This:
We were discussing kidlet's room and whether to move him to a diff room in the house. H expressed his views and I said, "I agree 100% with everything you've said. Sounds great." I wasn't even DBing - I really did agree.
He did a double take, struck a Superman pose and said, "I like hearing you say that." I laughed and asked him if he wanted to hear it again.
... may be a huge piece of the puzzle. Unless he is a bottomless pit for affirmation, the fact that he did a double take at hearing genuine unreserved praise/agreement may indicate that he hasn't heard enough of it.
It's so easy (if you're a recovering perfectionist like me, anyhow) to nitpick the flawed and questionable while rewarding the accurate and competent with ... silence. And it's so easy to change that with a little internal reprogramming. Who doesn't like to hear their loved ones tell them they're right/smart/good at what they do???
Of course, feel free to ignore or correct me if none of that applies.
Nope, Kett - you're dead on. And the feedback is VERY appreciated.
Re: passionate marriage - my copy arrived today.
BTW - you may have missed my Shai Hulud posting. I thought you might get a kick out of it.
Yay!!! Let the differentiation commence!!!
I did miss your ShaiHulud post, which I just found. I knew I liked you for a reason!
We prefer the SciFi version ... I just can't handle the David Lynch ending. Although I think C.O.D. was even better. Actually, no one has really gotten Herbert's universe quite right yet (including his son but don't even get me started), but I live in hope.
Awww, f%$@. I'm on p. 59 of Passionate Marriage, having skipped some of the introductory scene setting, and yeah, this book is about us (me and H).
I'll settle in and do some good, hard reading.
I'll be quite curious to hear what you glean from your reading.
well, for one thing, it's painfully clear that we're still hugely connected. I knew that, really, but this book confirms it in an unequivocal way.
Quote from book, p. 60,
" ...if you get your identity from your feelings -- then you can afford to have them change. You'll feel like you won't know who you are..."
ooooooh! Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!
I think this is part of where H is right now.
Hi Dia,
I've seen a lot about this book on other's threads. I told myself I would buy it if H came back. Well, he's not, and we're headed for a D.
I think I'll read it anyway now.
Hi, Silver Fox,
It's a good read so far.
And I need to correct my quote above.
That should read that you CAN'T afford to have them change...
Big difference.
Right,
And my H has talked about his "feelings" more than he's talked about anything else in these 2 years.
So I guess MLC=identity from feelings=don't know who you are
One thing I will say ... don't be surprised if you get to a point where you think, "what sick sadistic b*tch recommended this book with *all this talk about sex* to a separated person???" I apologize in advance for that, but if you soldier through, there is so much wisdom that is just *basic* to any relationship, even if the sex portion of the program is non-field-testable at the moment. Even in the more specifically sex-oriented passages, there is much that can extrapolate usefully, IMHO.
ROFL - yes, I have already hit a few 'cold shower' passages but frankly, I've been relaxing and enjoying them. My H is an amazing lover, so even though there's no current action, I have a very (*ahem*) large file of memories to enjoy.
Awww, f%$@. I'm on p. 59 of Passionate Marriage, having skipped some of the introductory scene setting, and yeah, this book is about us (me and H).
I'll settle in and do some good, hard reading.
That book is so hard to read! But a really good book.
It didn't help me with W, but I hope it helps in the future!
"what sick sadistic b*tch recommended this book with *all this talk about sex* to a separated person???"
Yeah, I've heard a little about Ch. 10 I believe it is. Maybe that's one reason I've avoided the book so far!
Irony of all ironies, my H is a professor and an intellectual and this is exactly the kind of book he would respond too.
But alas, that H is "gone" now.
Journalling...
7:23 PM. The workday is over, dinner is made and eaten and it's winding down time. When I'm busy, I'm fine. When I start to wind down/ quiet down grief hits and it just makes everything look more bleak.
I really miss cuddling with H. I miss the security of having him there in the bed even if he's sound asleep. I miss being snuggled on the couch and watching a movie or both reading under the same blanket.
There are still emails coming in from my new job, but it's after hours and for what I'm being paid, I need to start training them right now that unless it's an emergency, I am not available after hours. That's MY time.
In all the chaos, I ran out of my thyroid med so I have to call the doc tomorrow because I'm out of refills, too.
I'm cold; I'm sad; I want my warm jammies (which I didn't pack) and I want to be under the down comforter in the *^#$*@ big bed with my husband beside me. GRUMP!!
And yes, PMS has hit. I don't tend to get bit$^%, I get vulnerable and weepy instead. Sigh.
Ok, big girl panties will return momentarily.
Note to self: didn't eat til 3 pm today aside from coffee. Probably not the wisest of ideas.
Upside: Made shrimp scampi with sauteed veggies and pasta for supper. It was *really* good. H loved it and the veggies were from his garden. I gave him some sincere WoA over the garden and he glowed for a bit.
For Kettricken: I guess I'll have to settle for the delightfully Freudian metaphor of strolling through H's garden to pluck an obscenely large zucchini.
It's harder, much harder, when they're "there" but not "there for you", I know. That can feel worse than being, for lack of a better term, genuinely alone.
Kudos on the cooking and WOA and *also* on training your new job in what to expect.
And yeah, eating properly at regular intervals is something you *can* control, and the results repay the effort. There's enough going on in your system already without adding low blood sugar brain into the mix....
... not to mention no thyroid med. Yikes!
(I now have this mental picture of you caressing an obscenely large zucchini in the twilight .... lol.)
Well, the evening ended on a better note.
I initiated a parenting discussion with H and it went well. I came from a place that was strong, but open, and wonder of wonders, H did not get defensive. In particular, I said that out of respect for 'his house, his rules' I had been standing back as a parent and not interfering. I asked him how he would like me to handle things going forward such as noticing that kidlet had been in the same clothes since Sunday.
He responded really well. Before, he would have taken this as an attack on his parenting skills. Now he said that if I saw something that I thought needed intervention, I should just do it and if it caused a conflict between the two of us at any point, we'd work it out.
Hmmmm, hokay.
I wanted clarification on that because it was so new and different.
Dia: So if I just jump in and tell kidlet to change his clothes, you won't take that as a comment on your parenting ability?
H (somewhat ruefully): No. You know, I hate to say it, - but if he hasn't changed his clothes for two days, it's an oversight on my part so yes, just jump in.
Dia: Ok.
It's strange to me that he can literally not notice that kidlet has been in the same clothes since I got here Sunday evening but if that's what he's saying, I think I have to take it at face value. Before, I thought he knew but just didn't care (i.e. was slovenly).
He, for his part, seems to realize that the not noticing is indeed a problem. I don't mind being the primary caretaker for the grooming and hygiene stuff at all. I do mind when H gets defensive and angry at me for it, but he says that's not going to happen anymore. We shall see.
It was an interesting discussion. I wasn't looking to blame at all. I just wanted to solve the problem.
Another positive note - him initiating a hug at bedtime seems to standard operating procedure now. I like that.
Dia,
Just wanted to say I enjoyed your posts on Tristan's thread. You seem to have a strong confident attitude toward what you are dealing with, and it has helped me with my thinking as well.
Keep on keepin' on, and best of luck.
pigskin
Kudos to both of you.
To you, especially, for letting it lie where it was and not going into "HOW could you not NOTICE etc etc". I presume he's asking himself that question now, and even if not, rubbing his nose in it = bad mojo.
Hi, Kett,
Thank you for the affirmation. I guess I compared it to certain oversights of my own, so while the issue is different I can identify with the whole 'process failure' idea. For me, I can blithely go on with my life never noticing that the 15th was several days ago and it completely slipped my mind to pay my BofA bill.
I'm certain that many people would ask the same of me - "How the heck could you not know that bill was due??! It's been due on the same %$@# day for the last TWO YEARS!"
BTW, Kett - are you available on FB or any other such realm?
For some kind of convoluted Luddite reasoning known only to my subconscious, I have avoided the facebook realm, although that's beginning to feel like a losing battle. Probably a last-ditch effort of my better self to save me wasting yet more of my time on the interwebs, lol.
There is a secret clubhouse ... but I don't know how to direct you there without getting myself banned here (for realz). I'll give it some thought; watch out for breadcrumbs in future (wink).
Kett - have you ever heard of an organization called "NASARF"? It's a research institute. You might be interested.
(((((Dia)))))
I must say, I can see how your H didn't notice the clothes, really. Not proud to be able to say that, but there it is!
If you want to look for the secret clubhouse, seach out kalni sunshine, and her friends. There's quite a network.
Here are two recent emails to H. The first is giving praise and recognition where they are due, and the second is shaking things up a bit.
Re: email 2 - our parenting discussion last night also touched on housework, namely that he was dissatisfied with the state of the kitchen and wanted to clear the buffet that has become an overflowing repository of loose greeting cards, photos, drawings from kidlet, etc. I said that doing some cleaning and organizing projects around the house would help me process the grief over Gramma and would he mind if I did that? He gave me the green light.
<insert maniacal, evil villain laugh here>
The cards on the buffet spanned a good 2.5 years, dust and cat fur included. There were Christmas cards, Bday cards, loose snapshots of nieces, nephews, my father, etc. And there was at least one Valentine from OW which I very considerately did not burn in a pentagram inscribed on the front lawn. (Couldn't help seeing that one, but I honestly did not snoop through the rest)
The buffet has now been wiped down, the velvet runner restored and the only things on it are an attractive bowl of fruit, the coffee maker and two framed photos, one of SIL's baby and one of kidlet with my sister's two boys. Note: those photos were there originally, just buried. Stacking the cards on his bed will encourage him to sort them (maybe) or at the very least shove them in a bag or a drawer which gets them out of view. MY view in particular since I knew there was stuff from OW there and it niggled at me every time I walked by.
And that, btw, is an example of how I can put negative pressure on the A by just being here - and I even got his buy-in to do it.
<reprise maniacal laughter>
Emails to follow:
-----------------------
Hi, there,
You know, last night's parenting discussion went so well that I wanted to take a moment to thank you for it, especially since it was late and I knew your shoulder was bothering you. Thank you for being open to the communication and for responding well. I also wanted to clarify something - I do NOT think you are a bad parent even if it's true that sometimes you don't notice that kidlet has worn the same clothes for a few days. It's just an oversight. I make oversights, too. My intent last night was not to blame you or demean you in any way; my intent was only to clarify parenting roles and solve the issue at hand.
I do hope that came through because I admire and respect you as a person and a parent.
Thanks!!
(no response so far)
----------------------------
Hey, there,
I got an impromptu call from one of the sales guys and he is dropping by the house to leave some materials with me. To this end, I tidied the bar and the buffet in the kitchen. The bar is only 'better', not pristine, as I didn't know what to do with a lot of the stuff. The buffet is pristine, polished with Pledge, the runner shaken out, etc. I did not look through the cards and I did not throw any away. They are stacked neatly on your bed.
Cheers!
Dia
------------------------
(his response below)
Thanks!
I was thinking it'd be nice to clear the console anyway. (Edit: I normally do not email him twice in a day, and normally only email him with business-related stuff.)
Journalling....
I've fallen into a certain little ritual at 5 pm. H gets out of work @ 5 and gets home between 5 and 6. My work day technically goes til 6, but it's flexible based on when I started, if I took lunch, etc.
So at 5 pm, I have been doing the following.
I put work down for a few moments.
If there is any spot tidying to do in the house - 3-5 mins worth - I do it.
I brush my teeth and freshen my hair, make up, perfume and clothing if I've been doing something messy.
I may put music on.
I may start supper so he can smell it from the driveway.
On the surface of it, these things are for him. But here's the impact on ME.
I have a few moments to think of H and positively anticipate his arrival.
Fussing with hair and make up makes me feel feminine and attractive.
Even though I've been here all day, the house feels warmer, happier and more welcoming.
This does does wonders for my PMA!
Clarifying - I am not expecting any certain reaction from him, not even just to notice.
Another hurdle cleared...
Phew! This one was a real nail-biter for me. I asked H if I could bring my cat here. Dean is a 1 year old sweetheart ginger kitty. He's super affectionate and sleeps on my head at night like a hat. That cat was pretty much my sole source of cuddling and affection for all of the past year (aside from kidlet, of course). Pitiful, eh?
Anyhow, H and I already have two cats at H's house. I was almost certain that H would not want the disruption of an extra feline, esp. given that there will be a week or two of hissing and hiding while they all adjust to each other. I was extremely tense about asking, and I felt timid and stressed.
I knew if I approached him that way, that my feelings would contaminate him so I dialed up my best Act-As-If and brought it up with a breezy casualness as if I expected it to be a complete non-issue, a mere courtesy and formality. And he acted like it was already a foregone conclusion that I would bring my cat.
Huge relief!!
And I get to have my baby Dean!! I was terrified I'd have to rehome him.
Yes, my M is more important than my cat so I'd have made the sacrifice if I had to but goshdarnit, pets are family and you don't leave family behind!
Good Dia, having your kitty there will be good for you! Do you work from home?
I bet that this mini-victory was good for your attitude!
And I agree, pets arent used cars, and shouldnt be treated as such!
Hi, blue,
Dean is a shelter baby. My sister has his twin brother. I worked together with a rescue org to get him out of the shelter because he was only a few weeks old, couldn't (or wouldn't) eat the shelter food and had an eye infection. He would have died or been put down.
In my most miserable days, I used to drive over to the shelter on my lunch and take every single kitty out of the cage to pet, hold and love. I also dropped off cans of premium food because sometimes it's the only thing the littlest kittens would eat. It was salve for the soul. After a few months of this, they brought in baby Dean and his sib - and, well, after holding those two, I couldn't let go.
Hey Dia,
Sounds like you are doing well.
FYI, we got a cat last Saturday - well, my W and kids did while I was at my grandfather's funeral.
I'm a dog person and have never had a cat before. She is warming up to me though. She's pretty cute, although she does not like one of our two dogs (golden lab). Both our dogs are super laid back and would never hurt anything, even a cat. But, apparently our cat either doesn't know that or isn't buying it.
I work with a marine mammal rescue group here in Ak, and I agree, it is great for your PMA! Unfortunately with my job, I deal with almost always the dead ones, but when I do get to take part in a rescue, not just a recovery, I walk on sunshine for a little while!
Its one of the things that I highly recommend to people to GAL.
My cat is from a shelter too, he was an adult, not sure just how old, and I was trying to resist, but the guy pegged me for a sucker, Im sure, and told me that his euthanasia was going to be the next day... So I got a cat, his name is Steve.
So H was out on his weekly movie night with friends. We chatted a bit before he left (the cat story) and I happily told him to have a good time. In his absence, I watched a movie, read part of Passionate Marriage and watched for shooting stars on the back deck with the kidlet.
I was feeling especially warm toward H when he got home - gratitude for letting me have my kitty. We started talking in the kitchen when his phone buzzed and he said he had to get to someone on the computer. Well, you know what I thought, right? I immediately thought it was OW despite the fact that it was pushing 1 am her time.
While he was on the computer, I made us a pot of tea. In the process, I had to walk past the door of the office and there was no furtive behavior whatsoever on his part - no hunched shoulders, no closing of windows, shielding the screen, etc. So I put my PMA back on and finished making the tea.
About the time the tea was done, he came back to the kitchen - barely 10 mins - and seemed both surprised and touched that I'd poured tea for both of us including making his how he liked it. He accepted his cup and clinked mugs with me. Then he said the phone/computer thing was a tech contact of his in England who was asking for details on an unusual problem that H needed the answer to by morning.
So then I stepped squarely out of my comfort zone and did the following:
Dia: I'd like to ask a favor, and you can say no if you want. I'd like to kiss you on the cheek.
He blinked in surprise (it even seemed like pleased surprise), then eagerly leaned forward to present his cheek. So I gave him a nice, soft, tender kiss.
I told him how nice it was of him to let me have my cat, then I told him the story of how I got Dean. In the middle of the story, he led me over to the couch so we could sit.
The story touched him, and we talked for a bit longer, discussed the fact that kidlet has an invitation to an amusement park 40 miles away - Eeek! - and then H decided it was time for bed.
I got my goodnight hug and his hand came up to cup the back of my head again. Then we each went to our respective sleeping places.
Here's the only strange part for me - his reaction to the kiss was so very positive that I wonder if he's waiting for me to initiate? And if that's the case, why is he still holding the line about me sleeping on the couch? Anybody?
And, total afterthought - Day-um. If I'da known it would be that easy to kiss his cheek, I'da asked for a real one!!
And, total afterthought - Day-um. If I'da known it would be that easy to kiss his cheek, I'da asked for a real one!!
Your so funny! Thanks for the laugh. Good to hear things are going well for you.
Sounds like a very positive interaction.
Hi, C-Bart and JKL - thanks for the drive-bys!
I'm running H's bedding through the wash today (with his approval). The layer of cat fur in certain places was beginning to obscure the color of the fabric.
For me, it's about more than cat fur, though. It's about purifying that bed psychically so it won't bug me if I should get the chance to do more than sleep in it.
These cleaning projects will eventually leave a pretty indelible mark on the house - indicators of my presence. I've wrestled a little over whether a) this is manipulative, or b) if I care. I've decided that since I've notified him in advance and gotten his explicit permission that it renders any possible manipulation moot. And given that context, I don't care! LOL!
His visible response to these things has been very positive so far. Guess I'll go from there.
Another interesting change. On one of my visits a few weeks ago, H stated emphatically that he wanted complete financial separation and I didn't resist that. With Gramma's passing, however, that makes my grandparents' car available since Gramp can't drive. H's car is on its last dying gasps, so I broached the possibility that if my dad knew we were interested, we might end up with Grampa's car. H said that would be great.
Also, with his rotator cuff re-injury, he's facing some potential medical expenses for physical therapy. I told him that as soon as I had paychecks coming in, I would contribute financially and it didn't matter what it was for. He thanked me and said he hoped he wouldn't need it. Note the difference from 'complete financial separation'. Then I laughed and said that once I had a paycheck, I was going to start buying groceries and there was nothing he could do to stop me - and we both laughed over that.
My sense is that we're navigating some of the logistics of possible reconciliation. We're slowly becoming more intertwined. I like this and want it, but the communication and successful negotiation will serve us well if we don't stay together, so it's win-win either way.
Had to wash H's sheets twice to get all the cat fur off, and there's *still* fur on his sheets. I put the fresh sheets and bedpad back on the bed, then decided to wash the rest of the bedding, too. I love a crisp, fresh bed and I hope he does, too.
I wish I had chocolates to put on the pillow.
Don't scare the deer .....
LOL, thanks, Kett.
I will not be calling attention to this particular AoS. He knew I was going to do it. Let him notice on his own, and yeah, chocolates are probably over the top.
Guess I'll take that black lace thong and garters out from under his pillow, too.
(j/k)
Seriously, D, I think you -- both of you -- are making amazing strides toward quietly twining your lives back together.
The cat thing, in particular, seemed huge. As you pointed out, it's a lot of upheaval to import a new animal into an already-menageried home. The fact that he didn't cavil at all is encouraging, IMHO.
My gut feeling (I'm full of them today; wink) is that it's best to just let it happen without feeling the need to discuss/call attention to it too much.
I don't mean asking his permission as you have been doing; I think that's a positive. I mean the suicidal impulse you *may* be feeling to *point out* how well everything is going ....
Ooooh, cavil - good word!
And yes, you are correct - pointing too broadly at the good stuff is counter-productive.
As for asking, at this point in where we are, surprises for him are probably not a good thing.
Reflections... journalling...
This week has been the most relaxed and natural of all the times I've been up here. My casual cheeriness has not been forced or a facade as it has been other times. For the most part, I have not agonized over every little thing, every little nuance. I have taken a lot of things at face value. I almost feel like I am not actively DBing. I feel like I am just... living and being me.
The projects around the house have been as much or more to channel grief than for H's (or my) benefit (though I am not denying said benefits).
I've had WAY fewer insecurities, and even sleeping on the couch is no big deal.
Here's the thing - I don't think I'm very detached. My love tank is fuller than it's been in about 3-4 years, so I think the ease and happiness are coming from that, and from just liking being in my own skin rather than from detaching and GALing. Or maybe I *am* detached and this is what it feels like? Can you be detached AND have a full love tank?
Caveat: Don't get me wrong - I am not advocating that people don't detach. I'm just saying I'm not sure where I am detachment-wise.
H was out last night and tonight, but I didn't feel abandoned. He chatted with me before he left, seemed to *want* to sit and reconnect with me when he got back, and has hugged me before work and before bed every day this week.
I'm content. (And yes, it feels a little strange.)
In many ways, it does not feel like two years have passed since I left. Yes, the changes in both of us are there, but I don't feel any diminishment of love or caring for him, and even though he's not saying ILY, I don't feel any diminishment of his for me, either. In fact, I feel MORE love for him and from him than in all of the last year before I left.
On the reality side, yeah, I know I could get kicked to the curb in about 30 days, and yes, that will suck if it happens. But on the other side, I'm not even worried about our upcoming anniversary. I know what I'm getting him - and what (or if) he gets me doesn't really matter.
Dia, contentedly
LOL, thanks, Kett.
Guess I'll take that black lace thong and garters out from under his pillow, too.
(j/k)
Your right. Probably good to leave his stuff alone :-) Sorry couldn't resist.
ROFLMAO!!!
In a job training recently, a supervisor was explaining the dress code - no spaghetti straps, no bare midriffs, etc. The burliest of the guys ups and says, "Dang, there goes MY wardrobe."
Dia, I've enjoyed reading your reflections. You write very well. You're making great progress, too.
Cas
Hey Dia,
I haven't been posting to your thread much the last few days, but I just wanted you to know I have been watching. And things seem to be going in the right direction for you. Keep it up.
Odd day.
First it was the Day of Defunct Devices. Woke up to no internet (horrors!) courtesy of a defunct router. Paced around until tech came. H was smarter and worked in his garden. Left for 11 am meeting when the check engine light came on in my car. Then, despite topping a three-quarter charge, my cell phone drained its battery dry during my 3 hr meeting, beeped pitifully and turned itself off.
Got home in a serious frazzle as I do not have the funds to fix any of these devices and their antics made me behind in my work, incommunicado with both my boss and my dad who is trying to coordinate a truck tomorrow to deliver my earthly goods into a storage unit up here.
H not only listened to me vent, but invited me to vent. He listened sympathetically. He validated me. He said anybody would be stressed under those conditions. He called me reasonable. (During the Bad Time, his pet names for me were 'demanding' and 'unreasonable'.)
Somebody call Area 51 because the Pod People stole my husband.
He upgraded our DSL to a more expensive plan - more on this later.
The hugs are getting more and more personal. A hand in my hair one time, fingers wrapping round my ribs another. And he's offering them w/o me asking.
He asked if he could join me sitting on the couch. And we talked - not about anything in particular, just talked.
I asked what his plans were for the evening, and he asked if I wanted to watch a movie. I said yes.
He invited me to go to the beach after work with him and kidlet and then sat hip to hip, elbow to elbow with me on the sand while kidlet played in the water. And we talked some more.
I made dinner and he raved about my 'flair' for cooking and he did so in this 'really thinking about it' way - you know, when they stop and look at you sort of like they've never actually seen you before?
Then we had the world's strangest psuedo-R talk. It started about money - I don't remember exactly how. Oh yeah - groceries. The cupboards are a little bare, which prompted the comment about my cooking. Using produce from the garden, I made a whole meal with only two purchased items - 1 can of refried beans and some tortillas. I added onions, red pepper, lettuce and tomatoes. Oh, yeah - and cheese, so three purchased items.
So, I mentioned that I would help with groceries. He demurred, saying feeding me was the least he could do, I ate so little, etc. I said that while kidlet and I were staying with him, I couldn't see a reason for him to continue paying child support. Again, he demurred, but I insisted. So he said that if he wasn't going to be paying child support, then he'd be able to keep the internet upgrade he'd just ordered. (Note that he ordered it before I said the thing about no child support and helping with expenses, and weight all of this against 'complete financial separation' a few weeks ago. Here kitty, kitty.)
Then he went into the strange part. I can't quote all of it, but it was all about how I'm building a foundation, and helping me do that and being there for me is something he really wants to do. That he just couldn't see me moving into this new phase of my life in debt or anything like that, and if it took awhile before I could help with expenses, that would be ok. And afterall, we don't have a written agreement about it anymore. (It, what?? Child support? The divorce? It sounded more like child support...)
So.. I have no clue what that all meant. I don't think it amounted to "I'd really like it if you'd stay for good."
Possible Translation #1: "You still have to move out, but maybe not so soon... like, it would be ok if it took more than 30 days...you know, because I want to be there for you."
Possible Translation #2: "I'm conflicted as hell and I have no clue what I'm babbling about."
So we ate dinner, we watched Meet the Robinsons under the same blanket on the couch, about half of it with kidlet under the blankie, too. Then he went and read to kidlet before bed, and I covertly listened to them from my spot in the LR (very sweet!) while I watched the stars through the window.
Last night was the first clear night here in a long time, so I decided to take a second step out of my comfort zone.
I asked him to come look at the stars with me. This is a big deal because it happens snuggled together in the hammock and usually involves making out at a minimum and LM at best. And there was no kidlet in the hammock like last time.
He.
Said.
Yes.
I expected him to bring his own blanket (so we wouldn't have to touch) but he didn't so we both got under mine. And he snuggled against me and nestled his head against my shoulder. When the shock wore off, we both turned our eyes to the heavens and... there were no stars! In the scant 8 minutes it took us to go from tucking kidlet in to the hammock, the sky had clouded over. DOH!!!
We laughed about it, and even with no stars, he nestled back against me. Alas, without the surface reason for being out there, namely the stars, he decided he was tired and should go to bed. But he promised me 'there would be other nights.'
You know what?
Whatever you are doing? DON'T STOP!
((((((Dia))))))
Thanks, Jeff! I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing. I think maybe I'm leading? I also think this is more DR than DB, esp. the part about asking. My DB Coach said that it seemed my H responded well to me asking.
DB is doing what works. It sure as heck looks like what you are doing is working.
By the way, I vote for translation #2. He hasn't a clue right now!
The hammock sounded wonderful. Really.
*Totally* what Jeff said. Don't stop.
If "demanding" was the epithet-du-jour before ... all the more reason why asking politely is probably getting good results, no?
Yay Dia - whatever I have seems to be contagious
Gloriuos feeling eh?
I'm with the handsome guy
Number 2 on the hit parade! Without a shadow of a doubt.
You plod on girl. It's working. I know it, you know it and he doesn't know whats going to hit him
And I'm going to get me a hammock as well!
(((((Dia)))))
Mac
Hi, all,
Thanks for dropping in.
Re: demanding and unreasonable... <grinning>
Yeah, apparently I 'demanded' that he deal with the drinking issues and help out more around the house, and apparently those 'demands' were 'unreasonable'. He also threw 'mid-life crisis' at me, and 'hormonal'.
(and yes, I know that was his subjective experience and therefore valid, and yes, I'm sure he felt very put upon and yes, I probably *did* come across as nagging, angry, strident, etc. on at least *cough* one occasion.
)
Oh Dia, that sounds great! Im so glad that things are going well for you! I agree: Keep doing exactly what you are doing!
Enjoy whats happening now, and please dont get discouraged if he scares himself and backs off a little. Its part of the roller coaster! It seems like you have turned the corner! I hope that your road stays straight and you keep making progress!
Shake up day for H.
My father arrived with a truck, but there were a few things that had to go into H's house. One of them ought to help take the shock out of the rest. I bought a really amazing MAN grill last year because I can't stand doing steaks or burgers under the broiler. The company (Vermont Castings) was going out of business, so I got a grill normally selling for upwards of $800 for about $250. He will love the heck out of that grill.
The shake up is that even though only a small amount of my stuff came into the house (most of which was actually kidlet's stuff), psychologically I bet this will feel like I'm moving back in and may create a freak out.
Additionally he hates chaos in his environment and he got a bunch today as I had to stack kidlet's boxes in the guest room b/c kidlet's room is not ready to take them. My exercise bike is in two peices in the dining room, etc.
And tomorrow, my cat will arrive.
This morning was interesting, too. H got up very early for a Saturday - about 6:15 am. And he went to his computer. I've had other times where I wondered if he was contacting OW and for the bulk of those (of not all) I decided he wasn't. This time felt a lil different. The activity woke me up, and when I went to the bathroom, I saw him closing his email window. I then went to the master bed and slept til 8 am, but by the time I went kidlet was up and I don't know if H would get into a complicated email or chat session w/her with kidlet in the room. Kidlet's desk is less than 3 feet from H and kidlet reads at the 9th grade level and FAST too.
Later during the morning, he began measuring various spaces in the office. He said it was making him uncomfortable to have people walking around and such behind him. Now, it's possible this is totally legit. He's been living in that house pretty much alone for two years except for short visitations. But for the last two months, he's had kidlet, me and FIL to deal with so that's been a pretty big change for him. And while it's true that he's never liked people looking over his shoulder, part of me wonders if he's feeling some heat about reduced computer contact with OW.
If he is, GOOD!!
See, even not knowing her, I would guess that she's felt the pullback and might be pressuring him for more contact. Much as I don't like distressing another human being (her), there needs to be MORE discomfort in that particular relationship. In fact, I hope I stay in the house long enough that she ends it with him. The tone for this is not snarky, btw - it's straight up and rational.
She took a risk getting involved with a man who was still married and the risk may not pay off. For the record, she's going through a contested divorce herself. All I know about it is that her H suffered a head injury in an accident and somehow 'it changed him'. So she's divorcing him, and he's fighting it. The cynical part of me is looking at that and saying, "Wow. So much for that whole 'in sickness and in health' thing, huh?" I suppose it's possible that it made him violent or unable to care for himself or something but it's really none of my affair (literally!).
Here's the benefit of all of this for me. The old me would have moved that stuff in and then let it sit. And sit. And sit sit sit. I have a golden opportunity to demonstrate a 180 by processing those boxes quickly and not letting the clutter annoy H. It won't be an overnight thing because kidlet's room needs to be excavated first (with a frigggen backhoe!), but even if he just sees me working on it, it will be good.
Re: the truck - I don't know how we did it, but we got everything from a 14 foot Uhaul into a 5x10 storage unit. I am sure we contravened at least one law of nature...
Oh, yeah - and further evidence of Pod People.
Today H said he was going to take kidlet to the mall for some back to school shopping. He wanted to make sure kidlet had clothes he liked, had a haircut before school started, got a new backpack, etc. Um... if I hadn't told him, H wouldn't even have known what DAY school started. It starts Monday and H thought it was about 3 weeks from now.
H has NEVER even mentioned back-to-school shopping before, much less offered to do it. It's such a huge 180 that it almost makes me suspicious - like, is he trying to look good so he can go for full custody??
Hrmmm.... <Dia looks around shiftily>
Ok. Come clean.
Which one of you slipped my H a copy of DB???
Im sure that he is very confused, going back to your earlier post, especially if he is still in contact with OW! And I hope that your presence is putting pressure on their relationship!
Maybe he was breaking it off with her and wanted privacy?
Im glad that you are trying to get your things taken care of quickly, if it really bothers him to have disorder then you are hopefully, not making him tremendously uncomfortable, and possibly resentful of your presence!
I also think that its good that you are being somewhat realistic, maybe pessimistic, thinking about the what-ifs. I think that we have to be just a little bit like that when we are going through these things.
I hope that you can get H back under your spell this evening!
'nother thought...
Was sitting next to H's computer today talking to him about the DSL upgrade. He had seen a page the tech used for the ping check and he wanted to know if it was a proprietary page or if anyone could use it. So while he was checking his browser history, I noticed several facebook links (he had invited me to help scan for the link). I got out a slip of paper, wrote down OM's name and email (it's a common enough name so you have to differentiate by email) and asked H to please block him on his FB. He is already blocked on mine.
I explained that OM did not know where I was and for the peace of all concerned, I wanted to keep it that way. H said he would.
No clue how this may have affected H.
Is OW on his facebook? Maybe you are setting him up to eventually ask him to block her too!
OW is linked to him on Twitter and is on his sister's FB friends, but not his. And yeah, eventually, I'd like him to block her. He doesn't Tweet, tho. He signed up, tweeted twice and decided it was silly.
Back at H's. The hissing and hiding have begun.
Very low key night - both of us are exhausted and went to bed right after we got kidlet down.
Only one little tidbit of interestingness. My kitty is hiding in a corner sheltered by the edge of the couch and an antique oval pedestal table. I have boxes stacked on the end of the futon in the guest room, and H had me take a small rolltop desk off the wall where it was mounted and put it on the futon, too. So, just to be overly clear... it is not possible for anyone (other than a cat) to sleep on the futon tonight.
So while we're watching the cats to see how they tolerate each other, H says, "Well, if you're sleeping out here tonight, you'll be near him if Andra (our alpha female) makes any trouble for him."
If??! Um, where else would I be sleeping??
And, and 2nd bit of interestingness...
There was a gift cert laying on the sofa table when I got here. $50 to a nice restaurant, one I'd been wanting to try and *may* have mentioned to H - not certain. I think I did, but not sure.
Not knowing that I'd already seen it, he took it and hid it. The behavior suggested one of two things:
1) He hid it because he wants to surprise me for our anniv. coming up.
2) He hid it because he's planning to take OW sometime.
Soooo, I was going to suggest that restaurant as a celebration when I got my first paycheck - but now I'll wait it out and see what happens.
*laughing* If he does take me, at least I can honestly say it will still be a surprise.
H and I walked kidlet to school for his first day back. Kids there remembered him and he got lots of hugs on the playground! That's a huge relief because kidlet has been the target of some pretty severe bullying, once at that school and once at a different school.
H and I chatted there and back, very relaxed and friendly. The parents and teachers remembered us, too, and let us know how good it was to see us 'back'. The implication was 'back together' of course and for whatever reason, H chose not to correct anybody. Kidlet's teacher is a teacher he's had before, and is the mother of one of H's childhood friends, so we chatted in particular with her. As we turned to leave the classroom, H put his hand on the small of my back to guide me. That felt nice.
The rotator cuff injury has really been bothering H. Last night while we watched a movie, he was limited to laying on the couch in pain. I made supper and brought it to him and generally took care of him. He was very appreciative. I've also been helping rearrange the office. We laugh because he 'supervises' and I do whatever he tells me.
Packing books, moving shelves, etc.
Edit: Hi, Blue - Thank you for stopping by. I need to swing by your place and see how you're doing. New job tho, so I'm trying to be 'good' about my internet activities!
Hey Dia!
Don't know that I ever posted to you, but I read along. You are a joy. Thank you for making me smile so many times. If you are half as enjoyable in person as here, that H is a MORON!
Thought I'd finally chime in, since I can actually add something...
Rotator Cuff Injury - I played D1 tennis, bad serving technique left me w/rotator cuff issues, which finally came to a head about five years ago. When they went in to do surgery, it was not only that, but a torn bicep, and my shoulder was so loose that they had to tighten it three times. It was a hell of a recovery, but my shoulder is STELLAR now!
Encourage him to get it handled, and not prolong the inevitable w/cortizone shots, physical therapy, etc... I'm thrilled with the outcome, but still have bad serving technique!
So, I switched to playing soccer (on the mom's team)! Can't serve bad there!
Keep up your fabulous efforts. You're doing great!
MB
PS - Oh, also, my H fell asleep on our hammock Sat night. If he wasn't asleep, I would have pulled a DIA!
Hi, MB!
Good to know about the rotator cuff. Thank you! I'll see if I can work it in w/o seeming like I'm telling him what to do.
Note to all: anxiety spike!! This next will either be very good... or not. H and I were talking about kidlet and what makes him tick. I mentioned that I'd read something awhile back that gave me really good insights in to how to handle kidlet, what makes him feel safe and loved, etc. and that it had changed how I interact with him. H wanted to know my resource. DOH!!!
The book in question is 5LL. I told H I had a copy and he was welcome to read it but that it was ostensibly a relationship book for grownups. I mentioned that it has also given me good insights into his mother and father.
He asked me for it and said, "I want to read it." He was emphatic on the 'want' part.
I left the book on his bed.
Dia, nail-bitingly
he was welcome to read it but that it was ostensibly a relationship book for grownups.
You devil
Nice to see you keeping your sense of humor Dia
See- I'm still knocking round in the background so watch yourself
Stop biting nails. Go with the flow.
Hugs
Mac
Hiya, Mac,
Nice to hear what's cookin' (metaphorically speaking) over in your thread.
I'm on lunch, so I've only got time for a quick kitty update.
My kitty is still in his hidey-hole spot, but he's eaten and had a drink of water and he's not freaked out so that's progress. The alpha female cat still hisses at him, but that could take 2 weeks to resolve so it's expected. Our other cat is a big grey and white neutered sweetheart of a kitty and he's gotten along find with the new kid so far. No hissing, just looking at each other w/o any signs of aggression.
H has made a point of getting to know the new kitty, talking softly to him, petting him, actively making sure the alpha female doesn't hassle him too much, etc. H even talked about how soft and beautiful he is. And he is, really - he's a long haired cream tabby. Lighter color than your classic red tabby, more peaches n' cream with gold/copper eyes.
H got a good chuckle out of the color. See, the other two cats are 1) all black, and 2) grey/white. So they had the whole 'highly visible cat fur on clothing' thing mostly covered. White blouse? Black cat sits on it. Black trousers? Grey and white cat sits on it.
But what about GREY clothes? Black fur doesn't show up well. White fur doesn't show up well and grey fur doesn't show up at all. Solution? ORANGE cat.
Ahhhhh, Dia, I love cats. Every update you give brings a smile to my face.
Here's a smile back at you....
One of the people that found out about the good news asked when I said the "friend" was history, "So where did you bury the body?"
My reply - "didn't have to - we're having a barbecue this weekend - bring rolls" - work it out
What goes around comes around. And without any help.
HA!
Mac (with devilish grin)
Dia,
I am sooooo praying for him to "get" the 5 Love languages. And man, just getting caught up here makes me want to go buy a hammock! You go, girl!!!!
Mac - LOL. I'll bring the pickle relish and some exra BBQ sauce.
Hi, Wifey! Thanks for stopping by, and I'll take all the prayers I can get!
I'm cooking a ham tonight. Long story, but my parents wanted more space in their freezer so they sent a ham up with me. So picture me in the middle of a convo with H when he asks if I have a spare box in all of my moving stuff.
Dia: Sure I do. It's out in my car right next to the ... OMG!! I left the ham in the car!!! <Dia bolts for the car>
Fortunately, it was only an hr or so and the ham was still frozen.
<Dia returns to house, places ham on counter to defrost>
H (quizzically): Did you say.... ham?
Dia: (nods)
H: Do you need any help eating that ham, by chance? Because I happen to have this ham-shaped space that needs filling. (H pantomimes an area over his abdomen about the shape of his stomach)
Dia (laughing): Why yes, I *do* need you to eat my ham. <grinning at him> It needs to defrost, but I'll cook it tomorrow.
FYI on hammocks...
Splurge and get yourself an Xtra large, high quality, Hatteras style hammock that will support 400 - 500 lbs (I think ours came from LL Bean or Land's End). The right kind will have *ahem* spreader bars and a tubular metal stand. Ours has lasted a good 10 years w/no maintenance with some of those years in harsh desert sun, and several more in coastal salt air.
Thanks Dia, maybe it will be in the cards when I am employed.
Your ham made me think of a story I heard once about a woman that always cut off part of the ham and cooked it separate from the rest of the ham. Her daughter did the same thing because she followed her mother's example.
And her daughter did the same after her. Finally the Daughter's husband asked her grandmother why all the women did that. It turns out, the first woman always did that simply because her pan wasn't large enough and she had to do that in order to get it all cooked. The daughter and granddaughter just followed suit.
Ham was good. Roasted veggies were good. A friend of kidlet's came over after school and they build a fort out of blankets and lawn chairs. Then they got a camping lantern and a deck of cards and played Go Fish! Ahhhh, childhood.
H continued rearranging the office with me assisting whenever his shoulder needed it. One such event involved him laying on his back to adjust the pins under a a wall-mounted while I stood straddling him securing the desk from above. Lots of cooperative work.
Also, clearing those shelves meant that he pulled down a lot of things related to OW including letters, books and a calendar from her and a photo of her framed in white garden-gate popsicle sticks with craft-y flowers and an ILY message pasted on it in black foam letters. (BARF!!)
It will be interesting to see where these items end up now that they've been taken down.
So, the gooey cards from her - gone.
ILY pic in the office - gone.
That leaves some toys that belong to her daughter and a few other photos.
I have to wonder - how much of rearranging the office was an excuse to move her stuff, not necessarily for my sake - but for his own. For my sake, he could have just taken the pics and put them away, but I wonder if for his own sake he needed a 'reason'? Sort of like, taking them down because he was rearranging the shelves was somehow psychologically more comfortable than taking them down because (maybe) he wants to move forward with me?
FYI - I haven't fallen off the face of the earth - just swamped at work trying to meet a printer deadline. (And kitty, of course, is very 'helpfully' sitting on the document I am trying to proof! If I move him off the document, he helpfully sits on my kb instead.
)
Question: What do you get when a live, 8-inch long lizard gets into a house with three nervous cats?
Answer: Pandemonium!
(Lizard has taken refuge under the dryer. Lizard needs to STAY THERE!)
Question: What do you get when a live, 8-inch long lizard gets into a house with three nervous cats?
Answer: Pandemonium!
(Lizard has taken refuge under the dryer. Lizard needs to STAY THERE!)
Ahhh. Darwinism on display. Lets see who is the fittest.
Hmm, I must have been especially irresistible today when H got home. My workday was blotto-crazy so my 5 pm ritual was delayed. I got to most of the bits but my hair was still up in a twist.
H found me in the kitchen nibbling on one of my fave snacks - a piece of cheese with strawberry jam on it (think cheesecake for taste). He had an Armenian cucumber from his garden which he (lewdly) proffered for me to smell, and I reciprocated by offering him a bite of my cheese. We chatted for a few mins about our respective days, including the lizard and Dean trying to play pounce-and-chase with a grumpy Percy.
Somehow, we'd meandered from the kitchen to the dining room. He stopped and gave my one of his quizzical "Who are you again?" looks, then he hugged me. Out of the blue. A coming home from work hug. That's a new one. I've been getting the goodnight hug and the off-to-work hug, but a coming home hug is new.
Hey, I'm up to 3 a day now, so I ain't knockin' it.
About goals....
I need some new goals.
My previous ones were:
1) Demonstrates in word or deed that he is happy to see me.
2) Initiates conversation with me via phone, email and/or in person.
3) Invites me to do something with him, even if just a movie at home.
4) Initiates affectionate touches - e.g. hugs.
All of these have been met in spades. What can you folks think of for new ones? I'm having trouble with magnitude. I'm thinking of:
1) Extended cuddle in the hammock (elsewhere is ok).
2) Initiates a kiss, even if on the cheek.
3) Invites or allows me to sleep in the Master bed.
4) Asks me on a 'date' - no kidlet.
I'm wondering if those are too big of a jump? If so, what are some good in-between ones?
So, H is in the office on his computer for his weekly game night. It's cool, because it usually ends by 9 pm and all the other times he's gamed he's seemed hungry for my company afterward.
I rummaged through our CD cabinet and pulled several of our more intimately-associated selections:
Norah Jones
Sarah MacLachlan
Lots of Enya
Enigma
Norah is playing warm-up atm. Sarah will round out the middle of the line-up, with Enya coming in for a strong finish. Enigma... Can't do Enigma just yet, methinks. Norah is a warning shot across the bow but Enigma is Heavy Artillery. It's the difference between slow dancing with a glass of wine in your hand vs. wall-climbing, "hold me down and do me" passion.
Hmmm, I may go open a bottle of wine, too.
Alas, nada.
Nadissima.He seemed withdrawn and avoidant after the game. He claimed fatigue. He did take a few moments to pet the new kitty and speak to me a little. And he thanked me for minding kidlet, bringing him the wine, etc. but he went to bed w/o giving me my customary before bed hug. In all fairness, we both had a very interrupted night last night as we were up and down refereeing cat squabbles.
Fine - if he doesn't want to be the prey, then he will have to be the
hunter. I can play that.
Maybe it *was* fatigue, and maybe I spooked the deer. I'll give it a few days before I decide because if it was fatigue, he should be warmer tomorrow. If not, well, cross that one off my list at least temporarily. Doesn't change the fact that *I* had a fabulous night, tho.
well, I found out why last night fell so flat. I was using the wrong tool for the job.
I didn't need a warning shot across the bow.
I didn't need Heavy Artillery.
I needed a sniper rifle.
More later.
So here's the scoop and what tanked my musical mojo last night.
H had scheduled a 5 am computer assignation with OW. Remember back last Saturday when H got up at 6 am, with me and kidlet waking up shortly thereafter? I'm thinking the Saturday session left something to be desired and they must have rescheduled for 5 am this morning. She's in a diff time zone, so this would be 7 or 8 her time.
Knowing that he had to be up at 5 would explain the sudden onset of 'fatigue' at about 9:30 last night. I was asleep on the couch when H walked by - which woke me up. This would also explain the alacrity behind the speed of his new computer set-up. He was on a short deadline. I can see into the office through the LR window, so while I couldn't read what was being said, I do know that he had his Gmail and a chat window up.
In keeping with putting pressure on this R w/o a direct confrontation, I stumbled bleary eyed to the bathroom then asked if I could finish sleeping in his bed. He said yes. No excuses about waking up early and not being able to sleep. He also closed windows and looked guilty even tho I was not standing in a position to see his screen.
Re: guilt - yes, he is feeling (and acting) guilty. That's fine. He needs to feel guilty. And I would guess that she is feeling sidelined - which also needs to happen. Hopefully, I upset his equilibrium enough that she could detect something was off. This is good because:
She will be the one to get needy.
She will be the one to get clingy.
She will become ever more strident in her demands for attention.
SHE will then become "unreasonable and demanding" while I'm standing there happy, sassy, DBing, GALing and singing in the shower.
And HE will hate all of that from her.
Fast forward to the rest of the morning. H was grumpy. Apparently the session with his honey did not go well. (Too bad. So sad. NOT!) All of us started our morning routines late. Kidlet mentioned the packet of forms he'd brought home on Monday and H immediately turned on me and blamed ME for not bringing those to his attention. He proceeded to fill them out (they were optional; I looked) while muttering things like "J*sus Christ!" under his breath.
I breezily mentioned that kidlet had told both of us that WE had homework Monday evening. H snapped at me that he never heard that and I should have reminded him. I ignored this.
Meanwhile, I was making a shopping list - already planned, not gonna change my morning because H has his jerk on. I asked H to name one luxury item, something he usually couldn't afford, for my list. He couldn't think of one, but kidlet chimed in quickly with "Pop Tarts!" I confirmed a few other things we needed, hugged kidlet and told him to have a great day at school. Then I went to the store, leaving H to clean up his own mess - the one he created by spending too much of the morning on the computer, thus making himself and kidlet run late.
As I was driving down our street, I saw H walking back from the school. He waved happily at me, then began to prance and caper in front of my oncoming vehicle. (DUDE! Seriously. Do NOT Tempt Me!) I pulled to the side, rolled down my window and reached out toward him all friendly-like.
"Hey, there. Look - I'll try to be more communicative about the school stuff, ok? But..."
He interrupted me with an apology.
"But I was nasty to you. That wasn't right and I'm sorry. It wasn't just about you. You were getting fallout from a bunch of other frustrations and that wasn't fair to you. I should have asked (about the school stuff)."
Dia: "Thank you. We all forget stuff sometimes; it's ok. We'll get the communication piece ironed out. Now have you thought of a luxury item yet?"
H: No...
Dia: I'll surprise you. Have a good day. <Dia drives off>
"Other frustrations." I have a feeling these 'other frustrations' will be working in my favor. <innocent whistle>
Here's the thing - H has been remarking on how happy I seem lately. And I am dead certain he caught the vibe last night. I am also dead certain it wasn't lost on him that he by-passed the yumminess I was offering to go to bed so he could wake up at 5 am and then had to deal with 'frustrations' from OW. And yeah, he'll be doing a cost-benefit analysis on that one.
And just to put the icing on the cake, I sang in the shower this morning. Not terribly unusual for me, but the tune today was one of the Enya songs from the mojo music last night. So he's a frustrated, grumpy mess and 4 feet away, I'm singing love songs alone in the shower.
Personal revelations:
1) I didn't allow his piss-poor mood or his piss-poor displacement to disrupt my plans or my mood.
2) Unlike previous times, I did not feel even a whiff of that shame-based urge to run. Instead, I felt a rip-roaring urge to FIGHT. Different; yes. Good? I think so.
And, final note from Dia this morning. Gents and ladies, ladies and gents. If you've been doing the extra-marital mambo with someone else's dance partner, do not, I repeat - DO NOT - dance and caper in front of your spouse's oncoming vehicle. Your insurance company will thank you for it.
ROFLMAO!
He just called me. Seems HE is at the grocery store. He wants to know if I'd like him to get hamburgers so we can break in the new grill tonight.
Do. Not. Change. A. Thing.
Still no guarantees, I know .... but damn girl, ur doin it rite.
Thanks, Kett.
Oh, and his 'luxury item'? I got him a nice bar of dark chocolate (we used to lay in bed and feed each other chocolate) and a packet of beef JERKY. The loves the stuff, so the play on words will probably be lost on him.
They are laying on his bed.
Mostly I stifle my passive-aggressive urges, but that one got the best of me.
Bought H's anniv. present from Amazon today. As planned, it will arrive on the doorstep Friday with me not here to claim it. Let him wonder about the box...
It's grill basket for fish/veggies. 20 bucks, useful, manly, not excessively romantic for the state of the sitch, etc. I will heat things up a lil with the card, tho. I haven't found the right card yet, but I'm the type to get a card along the lines of "You make my crayons melt" or some such.
You know, maybe I *am* detached afterall? The aniv. isn't bugging me at all. I'm not expecting anything. If there's a romantic dinner or a cuddle in the hammock, cool! If there's a card, cool. If there's nothing - well, not a big deal.
Dia,
You sound GREAT. And you are doing even better.
And this:
As I was driving down our street, I saw H walking back from the school. He waved happily at me, then began to prance and caper in front of my oncoming vehicle. (DUDE! Seriously. Do NOT Tempt Me!)
...made me laugh.
Keep it up. I think you are correct that OW will be the one to crack.
FWIW, OW has been described to me as meek, mild, and quiet. My intuition is suggesting that her self-esteem is not so great. I hate to sound like a witch, but yes, I think she'll crack.
There are some toys here that belong to her daughter. If there's a sudden push to get those back to her, I'll know something is up. There's also a note listing the toys and a phone number on H's dresser - plain view, not snooping. I don't know if it's new or not as there's a lot of stuff (receipts, tags, groc. lists) on that dresser. At any rate, it will bear watching.
Dia:
You make me smile everytime I read your sitch! LOL
I respectfully request you to orchestrate my "moves" with my H!
LOL Keep it up! Is she's meek, mild and quiet, she can't be any fun!!
Keep dancin' Keep drinkin' Keep bein' You!
Just rec'd my THIRD call from H today. Completely unheard of from him, though there have been occasional 'Do you want anything from the store?' calls on other visits. One of the calls can be discounted as he needed specific data for a health ins. app., but the other two - totally flimsy, groping-for-a-reason reasons.
And yes, he's bringing ground sirloin and wants to grill. I will be catnip tonight, but I won't drive. We'll see where he takes it.
Here, kitty, kitty.
Dia I have just been reading through your posts. You have made me smile and laugh, I love your attitude.
Oz
Nice job Dia. How often do you think that he and the OW communicate? Do they pass emails? Is the note on the dresser his or her writing?
And I agree with MB, I am open to suggestions!
Dia, Just wanted to let you know you are being a leader in your family right now. Keep handling it. My Greek FIL uses a expression - "The camels nose is in the tent." Meaning just a matter of time before the whole camel will be in the tent. In your case "the camels nose is in the tent."
Cheers
Hi, Oz & Blue.
How often do he and OW communicate - I have no freakin clue. He doesn't text, so they don't text. If he's calling her, he has to be doing it from work/on his lunch as he doesn't have a private office. She's a teacher, so it's unlikely that their lunches line up. Only twice in all the time I've been here have I strongly felt that he was emailing or chatting with her, and I don't have proof for those times. All in all, it would seem that contact initiated by him is sparse. I suppose they could be having email blasts while he's at work, but again - she's a teacher and I would guess that her access to personal email at work is limited.
She sends him cards in the mail every so often - "Miss you/thinking of you" sort of things, often with a photo. One of those came in the mail yesterday, I think. H had the mail in his hands and was nervous when he came home (and after all the great energy about grilling too - shucks!). He distracted me by handing me two catalogs and then he hid the rest of the mail. I only saw the back of a card shaped envelope, so I have no confirmation of what it was (or who it was from) - but he usually puts the mail on the bar. He doesn't know I saw the card.
He sucks at subterfuge, so that a good thing, LOL!! We don't get mail to the house. We have to go down to the Post Office to get it. So he could very easily have opened the card in the PO or in the car and I never would have known. *shrug* I'm carrying on as if I'm completely oblivious to the card and the email activity.
Last night was ok but not great. H was conflicted by the time he got home - b/c of the card, I assume. He's got a world with her and a world with me and when they collide, it would be very understandable for him to get anxious. We grilled and had good burgers. Things were light, upbeat and casual - but lacking some of the customary warmth.
There was a point where all three of us were reading under a blanket on the couch. H got up for something and was struck by how 'cute' we looked both reading these big, thick tomes. He took a picture. I found that significant, and he still talks about my kitty as if he's staying permanently.
*shrug* It is what it is. My first paycheck will be here soon, and I'll be getting some more DB Coaching sessions. The first one helped immensely, so we'll see what the rest do.
Dia, Just wanted to let you know you are being a leader in your family right now. Keep handling it. My Greek FIL uses a expression - "The camels nose is in the tent." Meaning just a matter of time before the whole camel will be in the tent. In your case "the camels nose is in the tent."
Cheers
Thank you for stopping in, Coach. I needed a pick-me-up this morning. With the increased heat on the R with OW, H is whipsawing more than usual and it's requiring greater effort and strength from me. I can handle it (on top of a move, a new job, school starting and a death in the family, no less. Oy!), but every bit of encouragement helps.
BTW - note on dresser - I haven't seen enough of her writing to be certain. There's a name on the note that I might recognize - friend of a family friend sort of thing. I *think* the note is along the lines of "Call X and she'll come by to pick up the toys."
OW lives far away, so H would have to drop the toys off at OW father's house, or someone would have to come get them.
Since my cleaning projects include mucking out and organizing kidlet's room and the guest room, eventually I will have the opportunity to 'organize' those toys. ATM, however, I am "not noticing them", so to speak. The duplos (big legos for babies) could concievably be kidlet's (they're not), but the big wheel and little pink shoes... those get under my skin a bit.
Edit: we had a miscarriage not too long before the split. Seeing the pink shoes especially hurts because I wanted a girl and she'd be about that old right now.
Journalling...
The miscarriage. We had been 'trying' for about 6 months before I got pregnant but when I did, I was really worried that it was a bad thing. I didn't think H was up to having another child even though he was elated about the pregnancy. There were already problems in the marriage. H was withdrawing and acted like kidlet and I were a burden, acted like he felt trapped, etc. If he was feeling trapped and overwhelmed with just me and kidlet, how the heck was he going to handle another baby?
I learned I would miscarry on my sister's birthday. With a sexual assualt in my past, I knew that having a 'procedure' to handle the miscarriage was going to be too traumatic for me to handle so I went home to wait it out. H was alternately wonderful and not there for me. Intellectually, I know he had to work and couldn't take the whole week off, but for the worst of it - the time when I was doubled over in pain bleeding on the bathroom floor - he wasn't there. I felt so alone. He did take at least a day or two off, and he took good care of me when he was home.
I felt like the miscarriage was a blessing in disguise, maybe the best thing that could have happened under the circumstances - and I felt horrible for feeling that. Was I post-partum-y? Dunno. Maybe. I was depressed for at least a month afterward, and my contact with OM started during that time.
He was someone from my past and I looked him up on a whim. I was absolutely NOT intending to have an affair when I looked him up. At first it was just emails, catching up, etc. H was becoming ever more avoidant and hard to talk to. OM seemed to listen. His marriage was on the rocks, too, so we commiserated with each other.
I'm sure you guys all know how that goes. I am not proud of it. I am not defending it.
H and I live in a very small town where the main families have been here for generations. Names of H's ancestors are on the street signs. I felt like I couldn't open up to anyone because I didn't want to create problems for H, hurt his reputation in the community, didn't want people to talk. The only people I talked to were OW1 (the snake!), OM and a few people on a women's health and fitness board.
Eventually, OM started trashing my H, esp. the alcohol problems, and talking up how bad my marriage was, how much I deserved better. Unbeknownst to me, OW1 was running me down in her convos with H.
I asked for marriage counseling and H agreed to go. It sucked. the MC seemed to take his side on everything. H was lying about the alcohol consumption (lying, denial, whatever)and that just seemed to buttress for the MC that I was exaggerating, hypercritical, and emotionally volatile - who, of course, reinforced these perceptions with H. I called off the MC and declared us separated. And yes, OM had been pressuring me to do that. And no, I am not proud of it. (I told you in the beginning I'd be honest about my own failings, so there it is.)
Over the next 3-4 months, H stopped drinking, went to a few AA meetings, did more around the house. I was still in contact with OM (email/phone only) but H was making a dent in things. I got to the point where I wanted to work it out. I backed way off on communication with OM and started resisting his machinations. I also started looking for opportunities to tell H that I wanted to work it out. That's how I found out about OW1.
H was spending almost all of his spare time on the computer. I'd go in to see what he was doing - I didn't want to have the conversation with him looking back and forth at a computer screen. Since he often games with a group of our friends (including OW1's husband) I was trying to pick a night when I could ask him to turn off the computer and come talk to me.
Eventually, I'd give up waiting and go to bed. He was coming to bed at 2 am and sometimes I'd hear him laughing in the office. Finally I walked up to him and asked if something was going on.
He turned around in his chair and said, "Yes. I've been in a relationship with OW1 for a few months now." Then he turned back to the screen and typed to her that I'd asked him what was going on and he'd told me. She typed something back like, "Ew. Do you need to go?" I didn't see his response because I'd already walked away.
He was chatting with her the next morning when I woke up, too. It must have been a weekend day. Until this point, I had told him I was unhappy and that I considered us separated but I had never said the D word. Again, I walked over to him on the computer.
Dia: So this has been going on for a few months now, right?
He looked at me and said yes.
Dia: And this is what you want? You're going to continue it?
H: Yes.
Dia (nodding): Ok. Then I think we should move to closure as quickly as possible.
H: Ok. (and he went back to the computer)
I went to the master bedroom and shut the door, sobbing in a corner against the wall saying "I want a divorce" over and over again. It was the first time I'd ever spoken the word.
What made it worse was that all this time over the past few months, people had been asking me if I thought he was having an affair, and I'd been defending him. "No. No, he would never do that." Earlier in the summer, he'd driven 8 hours each way to go to her daughter's bday party. Looking back at that, well - it wasn't just for the bday party, now was it?
Up until this point, I had no plans to actually leave. None. I took kidlet to visit my folks at their timeshare in Lake Tahoe - a real kick in the pants because that's where we met OW and her H. I told my dad that I needed out, and asked if kidlet and I could come live with them for awhile. They said yes.
I went back home, told H that kidlet and I would be going to my parents. I went to my folks' place alone to get the space ready for us. When I got back to pick up kidlet and a carload of stuff, I asked H on a hunch when OW was coming. His answer: "Tomorrow." It was Thursday, and they were planning a - well, let's just say a weekend together.
So I packed up kidlet and my car and drove away. That was the middle of August. I got kidlet settled, started him in his new school and filed for divorce. We were married on Labor Day, so I think of Labor Day as our anniversary but the date is Sept. 4, so often Labor Day and the 4th are not the same. Even greater than the shame of leaving, my bigger shame is this: It was not Labor Day when I filed the papers. Labor Day was a holiday, so I filed on a Tuesday or Weds. after the holiday. I didn't do it on purpose, but the date I signed the papers was Sept. 4th, our 13th wedding anniversary.
When I realized that, I thought about waiting a few days - but then I remembered him scheduling that weekend with her before I was even out of the house and I licked the envelope and stuffed the thing int he mail. So much hurt. So much anger. So much devasastation.
Looking back, it was completely the wrong decision. I should have stayed, slapped down an ultimatum then met the bit@$ at the door and sent her packing.
And yes, the whole thing did end up driving me straight into OM's arms.
Well, so there's your marriage clusterf*^k story for the day.
Upbeat Dia will return momentarily.
Ok, this time I did snoop. (Bad Dia!!)
H did hide the mail.
The card is not from OW. It's to kidlet from one of the D-'s grandchildren and is most likely a birthday invitation. It was not open and I did not open it. (Wouldn't have opened it if it was from OW, either.)
So, commence speculation and mind-reading (More bad Dia!!)
There was absolutely no reason for him to hide the mail if he knew that card was to kidlet. Ok, maybe the D-'s told him that I'm not invited to the party, but H has been pretty comfortable excluding me if he thinks the situation warrants. A 'she's not invited' is the only reason I can think of for him hiding the mail if he knew what the card was.
High likelihood then that HE thought the card was from OW, too. And since he's now had ample opportunity to open it privately, it's kinda interesting that he hasn't. I'm not reading too much into that, though.
And yeah, I'm having a hard day, today. Lot on my plate. I leave tomorrow morning to go back down south for Gramma's service.
The bone from the ham is currently being made into split pea soup. Split pea soup was the last meal I ate before kidlet was born. Didn't plan it that way - that's just what one does with a ham bone, ya know?
I'm feeling wistful and sad.
What has triggered all of this?
All of what? Me struggling today?
Lots of things. H is more withdrawn this week, less warm and I am feeling the presence of OW more keenly. I've done real well handling my grief over my grandmother's passing, but knowing that I have to drive 4 hours tomorrow for her memorial service is weighing on me. I'm sleep deprived, thanks in part to sleeping on the couch, my own anxieties, working late last night and H waking me up on his way to his 5 am computer assignation.
Also, yesterday I read a part of someone else's thread that really hit me hard. She was talking about being in the same bed with her H and how badly she wanted to touch him - and as good as things are going with us, I don't even get to sleep beside him. Most of the time, I'm ok with it. But last night - truth be told I stood in the hallway outside his door at midnight on the cusp of asking if I could sleep with him. Twice.
Then I went and slept on the couch and snuggled my cat instead.
Then I mentioned the miscarriage in one of my posts - and it's about that time of year - for the miscarriage, for when I left, for our anniversary, for when I filed, etc, etc, etc.
Big damn snowball picking up debris and speed as it rolls down the hill.
So yes, I'm having a weak spell. When that happens, if I'm alone, I allow myself to feel the feelings. Stuffing them is counter-productive. But I set a time limit on it. Today, my time limit is 2 pm. I have to get my work done, but I can be sad until 2 pm. Then I have to get my head back in the game.
Hang in there. I often feel that way as well these days. I will have you in my prayers.
Know thyself was my point. Just be aware and find ways for you to cope.
So yes, I'm having a weak spell. When that happens, if I'm alone, I allow myself to feel the feelings. Stuffing them is counter-productive. But I set a time limit on it. Today, my time limit is 2 pm. I have to get my work done, but I can be sad until 2 pm. Then I have to get my head back in the game.
that is a good plan.
Thank you, Coach and Tristan.
There's all kinds of regret and sadness in there, but some of it is just a pity party. And for pity parties you just tell yourself to go get the Big Girl panties.
Example of head back in game...
Email to H, who is headed to a friend's house for movie night after work:
--------------------
Just had a thought...
You know, there's totally enough food here for people to come here tonight. I made the soup (and damn it's good!), plus there's ham, salad and whatever munchies or beverages you typically bring. Having it here would also make it easier for kidlet to go but still be home in time for bed.
It's cool either way, but if you want to invite them here let me know so I can pick up the LR a little more than usual.
Cheers,
Dia
---------------------
H's reply:
Thanks for the offer!
I'm going to stick with going to their place. It's a comfortable routine.
H.
---------------
Hmmm, interesting. It doesn't bug me that he said no, but there was some learning in the 'Thanks for the offer" part. I was prepared for a uniformly negative, flat out no, knee-jerk reaction possibly along the lines of telling me to stop trying to weasel into his life.
Dia,
Just expect some down along the way. Like Coach said, find a coping mechanism and keep moving forward. You are really doing great.
Hi Dia,
You have made so much progress and as you already know, down times have to be expected. The progress is all relative...you envy someone who is in the same bed with her H, others envy the progress you are making (and in the same house).... and on it goes. Perhaps you should go back and read over your threads just to remind you of the great progress you have made(and continue to make!)
Cas
You are absolutely right, Cas and GIMA. If I look back to something like June there is no way I could ever have anticipated being where I am now, sitting on a love seat I picked out myself, working from home in a brand new job and knowing that my H will be home in less than 2 hours.
I have made tremendous strides since I got here, and before that as well.
Life is good.
Mostly I need more sleep.
H stopped in at the house on his way to movie night. He didn't have to, but he did. I was all dolled up - gauzy skirt, black tank top, dangly silver jewelery. I polished up the silver jewelery as part of my 5 pm ritual today so it was especially shiny. We bought it as a present for me on a cruise to Cozumel. It's not expensive, but I love it.
There's a bracelet with dangly heart charms and then a puffed silver heart pendant with a bell inside. Every baby I've ever held has been fascinated by the jingly heart.
Anyhow, the dangly hearts on the bracelet caught H's eye and then he checked out the rest of me. In particular, I noticed that his eyes lingered on my lips. I asked if he remembered where we got the jewelery and we shared a few laughs and memories about various babies grabbing the necklace.
He had a cup of the soup which was nice of him and complimented the flavor. Then he gallantly asked what it would take to forgive him for abandoning me tonight.
Dia: Oh ho! So I get to set conditions?
H (laughing and bantering): Ohhh, I see what you're after. Now you're going to negotiate terms.
Dia: Maybe I am. What am I offered? (and I checked *him* out)
Then kidlet came in.
Kidlet, dude, light of my life. We have GOT to work on your timing.
I will make an attempt to claim my spoils later.
Sounds good Dia. Just remember, no expectations.
Yep - expectation is that I will get nada. Possibly some time sitting together and some nice conversation. I might ask for a kiss tho and let him choose the location. We'll see.
Re: my promised booty. I requested and received a piece of his chocolate.
I'm about to start the drive down south and while driving, I will be meditating on the topic of patience. I got impatient this week, wanting a similar amount of progress this week as I've had in past weeks. That's not going to happen, and if I push things or get pissy about it, I will UNDO my previous progress. NOT a good thing.
I get my first paycheck middle of next week and I will put some of it toward some GAL activities.
I will finally see Julie and Julia.
I will visit the local casino for their chocolate extravaganza buffet.
I will garden!
I will take up painting again.
I will go on walks.
I will do some projects around the house.
I will find some Quality Time things to do together with kidlet.
I will buy my fave perfume and some new cosmetics.
etc.
I will be meditating on the topic of patience.
"Patience is the companion of wisdom." St Augustine
*laughing and grinning*
Aye, but it sounds sort of funny when paired with another quote of his.
"God, give me chastity - but not yet."
Just joshing with you, Coach.
So, the drive was incredibly thoughtful and therapeutic. I have overlooked something rather large.
On another thread here this morning, I found myself discussing the WAW/LBS dynamic. I believe I said something to the effect of, "If you want the WAS to come back, then eliminate any valid issues they had for leaving."
...
eliminate the issues...?!?
We had issues?? Oh - like communication, finances and parenting? Those issues?
Crap.
I've been so focused on restoring the
romance that I've been completely overlooking and neglecting the issues. And yes, that thing by which I am hoist does feel a bit like my own petard.
Pie Jesu Domine <WHACK> Yes, a number of my 180s - and his - are related to the issues, but I've been pleased with myself for 'doing the work' when really I've been chasing the fun part of things, namely the affection and the flirting.
...
dona eis requiem. <WHACK> Mea culpa, mea culpa, mae maxima culpa.(Toldja I had Catholic roots.)
Great observation. That was a therapeutic drive.
And the email exchange below is what brought the 'issues' back to mind in the first place...
From Dia
-------------------------------
Hey there,
A few thoughts to share before I head down south.
Groceries - eat 'em.
And don't worry about using the last of something, opening something that's not open or cooking it when I'm not around (the ribs). Anything I buy is for everybody, and contributing makes me feel good.
Housework and clutter - I've been pretty good about keeping my stuff contained and out of your way, but if something bugs you, please tell me. I'll fix it and I wont get upset. I'd much rather know than let something fester and build resentment.
Mornings - if you wake up early and want to be on your computer, please go ahead. If it wakes me up, I'll just go sleep in the big bed. There's no need for you to feel trapped in your own house.
Communication and joint parenting - I've really noticed efforts on your part to communicate with me and share the decision-making on parenting issues. I've also noticed you being an active and involved parent. It works very well when we share the responsibilities of getting kidlet out the door in the morning, with me getting him dressed and fed and you making his lunch. I also appreciate you taking such an active role in things like bedtime, holding to curfew, having them check in at the house, etc. Thank you! I love seeing this!! I will continue my efforts to do the same.
Ok, gotta hit the road. I'll be back Saturday evening.
Cheers,
Dia
-------------H's reply-----------
Thanks, Dia.
You've been doing a great job on the clutter. I appreciate that. There is the matter of there being more furniture-type stuff in the house now, but we can integrate it.
--------------------
Dia:
GMTA!! I had that same thought this afternoon.
One of my 180's was really learning to share the responsibility of handling the finances. My first project was to handle a bunch of medical bills/insurance forms, etc... Did it! I also offered to do some of the banking for H, since he's in town, really just a few days a week, and then I opened a checking account on my own, and offered to write checks out of it for some of our bills, since my H likes to pay as much as possible online, and he has to do his business checking/bills, in addition to ours. Well, I've slacked a bit lately, and I need to refocus on that.
Also, the controlling/pushing thing. I caught myself last night, doing it. I need to ZIP IT.
Thanks for the reminder.
As per the usual, you are doing FAB!!! Wish I could go to the movie and chocolate event with you!!! And, I walk every am for 3 miles now w/ankle weights. Want to come with? LOL
Hi, GIMA, MF, lurkers all and sundry,
Back at H's. Memorial service was good. 9 hrs driving out of 30 hrs total kinda sucks.
I'm very tired so night night everyone
Dia,
I hope the memorial service was good and had some positive aspects. It isn't all about doom and gloom. There was a lot of living in your grandmother's (and my grandfather's) life. Focus on the good parts. I know my grandfather would.
Get some rest - that's a lot of driving. And do something fun for yourself.
I got in a pretty good zinger with W yesterday - not a mean comment. It just sort of happened. It's in my thread.
Take care.
mini-vent
H invited me to go to the D-'s for pancake breakfast again - had a great time. The D-'s, however, in making conversation twice brought up the issue of me getting my own place - asking how the apartment hunt was going, etc. Grrrr. It is a virtual certainty that I am over-reacting to this, but it felt like being beaten over the head that I have to move out, that H doesn't want me, etc.
H, for his part, said not a word during either exchange. Me, I simply said that what I had been told by some rental agents was correct, that until all of the returning university students were settled, asking rents in the area were actually going UP. The D-'s SIL chimed in to commiserate, saying that his mother had been looking for a place and all she'd been able to find was a single bedroom in a house full of university students and even that was costing her $600/month.
Again, I am probably reading into things, but it seemed as if someone had taken pains to tell them that I was only staying with H temporarily, and implicit in that is the idea that reconciliation is completely off the table. Grump! Then again, I suppose it might be a good thing for H to think through the idea that a room costs $600/month and does he really want me living in a room in a house with college students?
On a brighter note, H keeps saying things that indicate I am staying here for good. Example: We were discussing a certain rug in the LR and H says that if the cats damage it, 'we can replace it in a few years.' Note the use of "we" and "years." Last night, he mentioned some books my mother had loaned him and he said he wasn't ready to return them yet since he might read them. "Then again, if I want them later, I can always ask her if I can have them back."
If we're divorced, I hardly think he'll be asking my mother to lend him books.
Yeah, yeah - rollercoaster, script, let it go, etc.
So then we came home and H and I worked very closely together setting up and installing new RAM in the desktop computer I brought from down south.
He seems relaxed and comfy with me, initiating conversation, making jokes, etc.
Taking a quick break in the middle of cleaning/reorganizing the kitchen. (fix the *issues*, right?) I am by no means a neat freak, but some things need to be clean and organized to be functional, and a kitchen is one of them. Went through the pantry cupboard, threw away a bunch of (badly) expired stuff, wiped down the shelves, arranged and organized what was left. Did the same to the open shelving in the kitchen. At last I can see what we have and what we don't with a quick, visual inspection. Frequently used items are at my fingertips and an amazing amount of useless clutter has been thrown away.
H has already thanked me about 17 times, AND given me a hug for my efforts, but I did it as much for me as for him. For me, I'll be doing most of the cooking for as long as I'm here, so I need the kitchen to *work*. For him, clutter and disorganization really weigh on him psychologically, and the absence of those make him feel happy, light and free. Let's just say it wouldn't be such a bad thing for him to associate the happy, light and free feelings with me.
Additionally, at least in the past, he tended to blame much of the clutter on me. If I'm actively cleaning, de-cluttering and organizing, perhaps I can eradicate that particular identification.
He and I both have tendencies toward clutter, but in different areas. I used to allow papers, mail, books etc. to pile up on end tables, around beds and couches. His tendency is more toward never throwing stuff away which means cupboards and closets become unusable. And each of these drive the other one batchit crazy in a hurry. We're like that about cleaning, too - interlocking mess. I can't stand a moldy shower stall or a grimy sink but those don't faze him at all. I can overlook crowded surfaces or clothes on the floor, but he can't. In an ideal world, this would work perfectly. I'd clean the stuff that bugs me and he'd clean the stuff that bugs him - but somehow it never worked out that way.
Here's to better times!!
Oh, and another small sign. My kitty has to eat special food, so I've taken over buying the catfood. While cleaning the kitchen, I asked H what I should do with the approx. 20 lbs of kibble that my kitty can't eat. He said he'd give it to friends who have cats.
Hmmm, so if my cat and I are allegedly leaving in 2-4 weeks... wouldn't you want to keep those 20 lbs of cat food??
One day at a time.
And fortunately for me, they're good days, so it's pretty easy.
Ok, back to kitchen cleaning...
Dia~ I am brand new here and haven't yet received my DR book yet, but I have read your entire thread. Seems like you have GAL and DBing down pat. I always look forward to seeing what has happened since your last post.
Hope that I can be as smart about all this as you are in the future, usually let my emotions get to me too much.
Dia,
That sounds great. I gotta be the voice of reason - just remember no expectations.
But it really does sound like you are doing great.
Hi Dia, I thought that H was planning on you staying at least a little while a few days ago when he made the comment in the email about integrating your and his furniture.
It does sound like theyve been good days! You know, it doesnt really matter what other people say, especially about how your apt hunting is going, you arent trying to reconcile a marriage with them, are you?
I worry about what people are going to think if H and I manage to have another chance, but it really doesnt matter... maybe if I say it often enough, I can actually beleive it!
Thanks, GIMA - and yes, please keep saying that.
There was an OW sighting today, too. H was showing me his cellphone and how it stores voicemail locally. He played me a funny message kidlet had left today. And 2 messages back, showing right there on the screen, was a call from her.
One day, one hour, one minute at a time if need be.
On the bright side, he and I just had dinner, we're listening to Norah Jones, he poured me a glass of wine, toasted "to a welcoming kitchen" and we're both patching LotRO, a video game we plan to play together. So maybe possession is 9/10ths of DBing? I'm getting enough Quality Time to keep me in the game.
And Hiya, Brown-eyed. Welcome to my place. I'm in a pretty good space, all things considered. I could always do more on the GAL front. Soon's I get sum muneez....!
Hi, blue,
The original agreement about me staying was "just for a month" until I'm not competing with scads of students for the available rentals. But yes, he's said plenty of things that sure sound like I'm staying for quite a bit longer. It leaves me in limbo, but it's a pretty comfortable limbo and I'm not at a point where I want to pin him down about exactly how long I can be here. I expect that answer changes from minute to minute.
I'll tell you this much, tho - it's gonna be dang hard for him to get me out of here!!
I think *positive* "possession" probably is. And you seem to be doing great keeping it positive. It's clear that you're working pretty hard at not asking for guarantees, verbal status reports, etc .....
.... if it ain't broke, don't fix it. (wink)
Ok, the whipsawing is getting to me. One minute it's wine, toasts and "we can do that in a few years", and the next minute there are comments that indicate this is all very temporary. I know this is normal (so to speak) and I know it indicates turmoil, conflict and that all of that is actually *good* - but it's getting to me.
My gut instinct is to move closer to LRT, and to do some GAL activities that take me out of the house. However, there is certainly a theme in some of the GAL stuff where one is supposed to imply or otherwise invoke the threat that I am dolling up to be attractive to/to find/to see 'someone else'.
How do I handle that in our sitch? As someone who has been unfaithful, I really don't want to put that image back in his head. And with him having a current OW, I suspect it would drive him toward her - "fine, Dia's out looking but I'm ok because I've got OW" - she will feel 'safe' compared to me?
I also know I need to be rock solid through the whipsawing and I'm doing it.
I narrowly avoided an R talk this morning when we were talking about decluttering the guest room. The guest room has a large dining table in it (disassembled) that is supposed to be mine. He mentioned how hard it was going to be to put that room to rights as long as the dining table pieces were there as they take up significant room. Then he mentioned my paintings and artwork which are also in there. He took the paintings down when I left because they reminded him too much of me. I suggested that rehanging some of the paintings would be one way to reduce the volume of stuff in the guest room, but he said no, then talked about the kind of artwork he'd like to have in the house.
Then he mentioned the dining table. We originally traded his aunt a used car of mine for that table, which is why the table is considered mine. I asked if he'd checked to see if his aunt wanted it back, and he asked if I'd be willing to give the table up. I said I'd have to think about it.
Here's the thing - if I'm staying in this house, then yes, I'd be happy to give the table up, esp. if his aunt wants it back. It's a gorgeous piece with an inlaid top, several leaves, ornate chairs, etc. But if I'm moving, I'd like to keep it. Ergo, if I was fully open about the dining table, there would have been an R talk. And I'm not sure there's a way to let his aunt have it 'temporarily' w/o messing up the necessary limbo balance?
Any suggestions on any of that?
Got Aunt's cell # from H and called her re: table. It's my table, so I need to 'handle it'.
Also, Aunt is a very long-time mentor/sponsor in the whole Friend of Bill W. arena. I may invoke that identity (very cautiously) and see if there are any productive conversations to be had.
Another land mine avoided.
About a month ago, H learned that the cost of his company health plan was going up about $100/month. I offered to cover the $100, but he declined. He wanted to get private ins. to save $$$. The quotes he got from the agent raised some red flags for me, so I bit the bullet and told him I was uncomfortable with it. After initially being hardline that individual was the way to go, he asked me to give my reasons, and I did.
He then said that he'd bring home all of the relevant documentation and we could go over it together.
End result - I will be paying him the difference between 'employee plus child' and 'family', or $200/month. Once you factor in his employer contribution and my employer contribution, I'm out of pocket about $30 bucks more than he is, but I'm not going to fight over $30.
For him, the net change in monthly expenses is about $100 to the good and while I don't want to 'buy' him, so to speak, I do want the financial realities of re-separation to be readily apparent.
The interaction was quick and drama-free, which is always good, and even a little funny. I handed him the sheaf of papers and said I wanted to stay on the company plan and would pay the $100 difference. He handed them back to me and said wouldn't it be more fair if I paid the diff. between the individual plan and the company plan? I handed them back to him and said, 'Ok, you tell ME how much you want from me to stay on the company plan."
He blinked in suprise, presumably from me putting him in the driver's seat, and named the $200 figure. I immediately agreed.
He actually looked a little confused and off balance, but then he brightened and said this was easier all around.
I know for his part, he feels like I should have been paying for my own health insurance since the beginning of the sep. For my part, I had him deducting the cost of having me on his plan from the child support, so I feel like I *was* paying for my own health ins.
Either way, tho, it's handled now and everyone is happy.
'nother interesting note - we both got tense over this conversation, not with each other, but anxious because health insurance is a big, expensive deal and a big change means lots of risk - I think we both expected a disagreement and possibly a fight. When it ended so easily, we both fell all over each other saying thank you and how good it was that we worked it out calmly and cooperatively.
Rollercoaster...
Good news: We will be having a family dinner on our anniversary.
Bad news: I am paying for it.
Good news: Got my 1st paycheck, offered to take family to dinner on H's choice of nights.
Bad news: H picked Friday, our anniversary, with no apparent recognition/realization that it is our anniversary.
Good news: Since I'm paying, I will pick the restaurant.
Neutral news: H may well be oblivious about the anniv. esp. since we think of it as "Labor Day" and not "the 4th".
Bad news: means that gift cert. for the nice restaurant *isn't* being held in reserve for me.
Good news: well, this is about what I expected, and at least now I know.
You know what I'm gonna say...so I won't.
Slow and steady.
Yes. Sometimes it's easy. And sometimes you grit your teeth and do it anyways.
I need to go throw rocks.
... where the double entendres are thicker than flies on watermelon and twice as juicy.
So while I was finishing up my final hour of work, H came in to 'check on me'. Twice. Then, from the kitchen,
"DeeEEEee-aaaaa, where are my nuuuuts?" Think somehwere between Brady Bunch and Leave it to Beaver for inflection. And he was referring to a can of cashews I'd discovered and alerted him to during my kitchen excavation.
Dia (channeling Florence Henderson): They're on the bar, dear. I put them there so you could get them whenever you wanted.
H: But I can't fiiiii-iiind them.
Dia: Here - I will come and take hold of your nuts so I can give them to you.
<Dia walks to kitchen and hands H can of cashews which was in plain sight on the bar>
And a little later, we'll be grilling ribs.
Dia: Here - I will come and take hold of your nuts so I can give them to you.
Too funny...did he even catch that?
<grinning>
Well, kinda like Shakespeare - not like I'm having delusions of granduer or anything - there are a good three or four levels to that one.
Yes, I am sure he caught the bit about me fondling his nuts.
As for me handing them to him? Not so sure.
Well, for good or ill, H now knows our anniv. is coming up, and no I did not tell him on purpose.
He spent some time working on his game this evening, then talked about how there wasn't all that much to do, if he could just have a weekend where he could be a hermit and really focus, he could launch it.
Dia: Tell you what, we both have a three day weekend coming up, so one of the days I'll take kidlet to a movie or somesuch and you can take some quiet time for your game. How's that?
(And NO, I wasn't angling. It was an honest, good-hearted offer.)
H: We have a three day weekend??
Dia: (nods)
H: Are you sure?
Dia: Pretty sure. I know I do, at least.
H: What weekend is it? Wait - what month is is this?
Dia: September starts tomorrow.
H: Oh, *that* weekend. (But smiling. Slightly deer-in-the-headlights, but smiling.)
No clue where this will lead, but we'll see.
Wow - strange. I just got the most intimate, almost.. passionate ... hug I've gotten since being back here. In fact, I almost thought I was going to get kissed, and that's the 2nd time tonight I've thought that.
And it was en passant, too - not a good-bye hug, not a good night hugs - a pure 'because the moment moved me' hug.
Cool. I'll take it.
Hi Dia
You never know, wild monkey sex in the foyer might be around the corner.
Oz
ROFL! One can hope.
Now if I only had a foyer...
Well really who needs a foyer, choose any room in the house that takes your fancy.
Slept amazingly well last night snuggled up with my kitty.
H is affectionate this morning, too - verbally more than physically, but it's sweet to see.
Dia - could you please go check out the email I want to send to my H. I tried to keep it strictly business, but I need opinions, please.
And the nuts story had me in stitches.
H's mother took a fall yesterday. To my knowledge, she is only bruised/sore and not seriously injured. FIL, who just got here late last night, is heading back down to take care of her. I am coordinating sending flowers in H's name.
Her bday and their anniversary are the same day as ours, so I will be sending her something to commemorate those occasions as well.
H just called to shower me with surprised thanks and praise for handling the flowers. Hmm, cool. I was a bit concerned he'd not want me meddling.
Re: his mother. Gifts are difficult and touchy for her. First of all, forgetting or not acknowledging one of her milestones is a cardinal offense, and one that H commits all too frequently. If the gift is well chosen, but poorly wrapped, then you simply didn't care enough about her to wrap it well. Joke cards are mean, disrespectful and right out.
Wow. You are moving closer to Saint Dia:-)
Keep up the good work.
<laughing>
Hiya, C-Bart,
I can tell you one thing - 'Saint' Dia wouldn't have been spitting nails like I was when I went to the bank today and discovered that the bank is on the same street OW family lives on. Even worse, what I thought was the driveway to said bank is Exit Only so I had to drive past her house before I could turn around. Grrrrrr! (At least I know which driveway to dump the *&^%$@# toys and bigwheel in now!!)
<Dia rummages in backseat for Molotov Cocktail fixin's>
Dam%, no rag and no matches! Knew I shoulda started smoking.
(kidding!!)
So instead I eyed a man walking into the bank about the same time as I did and had this lovely little fantasy that he was OW father and how I would tell him that it would be best if his daughter ended her affair with DH - because I was his wife and I wasn't giving him up without a fight.
So there's the down-and-dirty side of Dia.
Sounds like you are doing great. Keep it up.
Hmm, I think I just accrued some 'saint' points with H tonight, too.
I cooked a big meal last night, and really didn't feel like it tonight. We have a school potluck tomorrow, so I'll be gearing up for that, too. So tonight, I made a verbal note of the leftovers but then told H that I wanted some fish tacos from the surf shack. H demurred, saying it was his game night and he didn't want to run out on his buddies.
Dia: No, I didn't mean having dinner out. I'm going to go get food and bring it back. What do you want?
H (incredulously): You're offering to bring me a fish taco? (Yes, immediately after the the 'nuts' thing... but I digress.
Although, we *did* make a quick reference to Sandra Bernhard.)
Dia: Yup. Is that what you want?
H: Oh, but I couldn't. That wouldn't be fair since I'd be taking the food and hiding in my office gaming.
Dia <grinning>: I know it's your game night: it's cool. And you'll be hiding in your office with or without food, so it might as well be with.
H (tentative, and staring at me in disbelief): Ok, I want a Summerville Special?
Dia: Sure. Be back in a few.
A few mins later, I said it seemed like he felt conflicted about the gaming and was that correct. He answered that yes, he did have some guilt about it, but that it wasn't coming from me. To clarify, he meant he was feeling guilty entirely internally, and not as a reaction to anything I was saying or doing.
That's very good to hear coming from him, because blaming me for his own emotional states, esp. for him feeling bad about something, used to be one of our issues.
So I brought him his burger and onion rings to his computer, then went about my business. H is hanging with his buddies, so he's happy. Kidlet is eating fish and chips and watching H game, so he's happy, and I'm watching the sunset over the water and marvelling that God could have created so MANY shades of purple - so I'm happy, too!
Dia:
Dumb Q...
So, game night is in H's office at home w/buddies? I'm picturing eight grown men crowded around a screen sharing the Summerville Special! LOL
Whatever it is, I'm sure you rocked it!
<giggle!>
No, it's World of Warcraft with 2 RL-but-geographically-distant friends of ours and one or two virtual aquaintences.
Ha! I knew it! WOW is a game my H used to while away hours and hours on! I cant hold still for long enough to play one of those games!
Yeah, I've played WoW myself and while I enjoyed it, I'm more of a role-player than a raider or powergamer so I prefer Lord of the Rings Online. I haven't played in many months due to some technical problems but I'm hoping to get back to it soon. Even better, H has offered to play with me so maybe we can get a regular thing going.
Nothing momentous to report - just the usual (atm) comfortable, companionable stuff. We walk the kidlet to school together in the morning, then we chit-chat on the walk back. Then there's half an hour to 45 mins before H leaves for work, and we tend to talk then as well. He gamed late last night, so we didn't talk when he got off the computer like we usually do, but it didn't bother me. I initiated a hug before work. Typical limbo?
There was another piece of conversation this morning that's more future-looking than the alleged 2-3 weeks I'm supposed to be here, but I'm not making a big deal of those. He's also not said word one (directly at least) about me moving out or about him filing for D.
<shrug> So I keep doin' what I'm doin'.
My paycheck has cleared, so I'll be scheduling some more DB sessions soonish. I'm looking forward to that as the last one went so well.
Potluck supper at the school tonight, a PTA social thingie. I'll be making a big ol' salad for H and myself, and then something kid friendly for kidlet.
What are you doing in the visual "here kitty kitty" department?
Oops - too late to edit - HE initiated a hug before work. I was going to say "I got" a hug, but changed my mind and forgot to change the pronoun.
What are you doing in the visual "here kitty kitty" department?
Before he comes home each night, I refresh my hair and makeup, fresh perfume, lipgloss, change clothes to something pretty, do a bit of spot-tidying around the house and about half the time, there's something savory-smelling in the oven for supper.
He *does* notice. I get comments/compliments all the time that my hair is pretty, I smell good, he likes my shoes, he likes my dress, "oooh, what's for supper?", etc.
Hi Dia, just passsing by. You're sitruation sound like it is moving along rather well. I'm so happy that your family is still intact and it seems apparent that you and H have learned from your past indifferences, keep it up!
Hi, Dday,
My family is *newly* intact. We were separated for 2 years. And possibly I should be putting quotes around 'intact', but, yeah, we're acting-as-if in the intact department right now. <grin>
Lots of things are different on his side, and on mine. The thing that remains to be seen is whether or not he can take the risk of being vulnerable enough to love me openly and with committment again.
Me, I've already taken the risk, am taking it and will continue to take it for the foreseeable future.
Depending on (a) contraindications from your history that I know nothing about and (b) what level of hoochie you're already doing .... it might be time to graaaaaadddddddually start upping the ante. Unbutton another button. What do you know about his "weak spots" re: female clothing/body parts? Use it. For instance .... I get uniformly good "Here Wolf Wolf" results across the board when I wear overtly feminine clothing, ie little flirty skirts, sundresses, etc. YMMV. What do you know?
He really likes the 'bohemian hippie chick' look. Gauzy skirts, bracelets, bare feet, loose hair, perfume and in particular, it turns him on when I wear little bells - belled ankle bracelets, a jingly belly-dancer style hip chain, etc.
Here's the rub - he is actively fighting *against* acting on his very obvious physical reaction to me because he is trying to be loyal to OW (hence my Molotov cocktail feelings yesterday).
This is also why he is being hardline about not letting me sleep in the master bed. He was all soft and gooey when we woke up together, including non-verbal "I love yous", and during the night he apparently had a very hard time when my nightgown rode up and exposed a long length of leg and hip to the moonlight.
Edit: Maybe I will do some shopping in the near future.
Keep the *subtle*, non-verbal, lusciously-available-but-not-overtly-demanding-or-pursuing, lighthearted pressure on. Let him fight himself. A bird in the hand .....
... although I would give him SOME space to miss your presence, too. Maybe an isolated evening of coming home to a (metaphorically) cold, quiet house when you have plausible business elsewhere? if you're not doing that already.
Part of me hates this advice as being manipulative ....
Yes, now that I have a bit of money to play with, I am going to go out on his game/movie nights. Part of the reason is exactly as you have said, and part is that I don't want it to be taken for granted that he can go out whenever he pleases and I will just automatically be the babysitter. I get to have a life, too.
And the point of doing it when I know he has stuff scheduled is so he can't use the no-Dia time to chat up OW.
Kett and Dia:
Just so you know... I'm learning something here! LOL
Manipulative? Nahhhh Strategic? Yep!
Bells, huh? Dia take me shopping! I think the H may just dig that!
Hiya, MF!!
Hie thee unto the kind of store that caters to Ren Faire types. Therein you will find Celtic music, oils of sandalwood and patchouli, exotic bracelets where a slender chain attaches to rings on your fingers and bells a-plenty. I am sure google will help as well.
I can post links if you like.
Dia! There's a store like that 2 blocks from me!!! No kiddin'! We live in a historic neighborhood, and at the closest major intersection there's a store, "The Kilt and Clover"! I'm on it! Immediately! Hell, I'm even on it BEFORE I shower and get ready for him to get home today... BBIAB!
This catalog has the 'look' H likes. Look at the romantic, girly styles, not the chic, urban ones or the "Michael Jackson called. He wants his epaulets back." ones.
http://www.bostonproper.com/This, for example, is squarely up his alley.
http://www.bostonproper.com/product/Crochet-ruffle-dress/830008/pc/53/sc/98/c/98.utsSo it this, but without the silly hat.
http://www.bostonproper.com/product/Puckered-peasant-dress/823885/pc/44/sc/164/c/164.uts
Dia... No kiddin'! I just ordered this last Thursday (animal print tunit on the left!). I think I'm onto something!!!
http://www.cabionline.com/Fall2009/index.html
So here's the problem with dolling up, hair, make-up, perfume, putting the girls on display, etc.
It leaves me so flipping turned on that I can't even concentrate on work!!
And no, I don't think I can take a sick day for that.
/marilynmonroe
"Hi, Boss. No, I can't come in today. I'm feeling a little.. under the covers."
H just got home. He's home early due to the kidlet's PTA potluck tonight. He arrived to find primped and pretty wifey barefoot in the kitchen preparing a truly amazing salad for said potluck.
Then he told me that MIL's flowers had arrived about 15 mins ago and she was touched and dumbfounded. She showered H with thanks and appreciation, especially remarking on the sweet and heartfelt message (which I wrote). I smiled and told H I was glad she liked them, and not to worry, I didn't need for my role to be known at all. I simply thought they would brighten her day.
I am guessing that what happened next was motivated by a sincere desire on H's part to praise me. He told me that my gesture, in particular the part about not wanting or needing any recognition for it, would rank especially high among Jewish folk. He must have seen the 'look' that flitted across my face, because he immediately began scrambling.
See, H does not know that I know OW and family are Jewish. But Dia, being nearly Ph.Deed in Comparative Religion, knows what it means when several "Judaism for Goyim" books show up on a Catholic boy's shelf along with a pretty Jewish calendar.
H: Oh, I guess I should provide some context for that, huh? I was talking with some Jewish people today.
Dia (brightly): Oh really? Someone at your work is Jewish? (Put pressue on A w/o him knowing I'm doing it.)
H (suddenly looking at the ceiling): Uhhhh, wow, who *was* I talking to? I can't remember if it was Mom or Dad, but they know some Jewish people. What's that white stuff you're putting in the salad dressing?
Dia: Arsen- er, stevia, dear. It's a sweetener.
(Ok, so I didn't really say the part about arsenic...out loud.)
Anger anger anger....
I can't wait for the friggen' potluck where I will be the most charming wife and hostess you have ever seen. An H needs to look the F out because if he dares to introduce me as his ex-wife, I swear to God I will shake hands, smile and say, "Yes, his mistress couldn't be here tonight. Salad?"
Would I really? Maybe not, but it isn't a good night to push me. <sweetly brittle smile>
I (for a couple days now) have been waiting for a post that says you guys have a big bust-up. Not fatal, but substantial. Gut feeling only.
Be that as it may ... you are going to have to decide what to do with that anger before it does something with you. (Note that I don't mean to say it isn't warranted. At all. I'd be ready to spit glass shards. But .... it was complicated how you guys got here. Which is why you're exercising patience. Yes?)
Well, the anger dissipated w/in the first few minutes of the potluck. I was simply having too good a time to be angry. H stayed by my side and introduced me by my name, which was fine. The town extrovert and good-hearted gossip maven told me privately that I have it made in the shade, so that's interesting. She's the kind who knows if it's a boy or a girl before you've even read the pregnancy test, so perhaps I will take some hope in that.
Re: anger... You know, it's amazing how quickly negative feelings dissipate when you're willing to actually feel them. Thanks to FOO issues, I grew up thinking that it wasn't OK to have, much less express, negative feelings. There were some strange IC sessions for me where I couldn't even put a name to certain feelings because I'd never been 'allowed' to feel them.
So now, yes, I feel anger - and I allow myself to feel it, to express it - but then it sort of just goes away. I'm not stuffing it, so it feels a little unusual.
Yeah, the situation will eventually be fatal for the M if it doesn't change, but that's a-ways down the road and I'll deal with it when and if it comes. (Afterall, tomorrow *is* another day. /scarlett)
As for the current OW, that's complicated. He took up with her about 4 months after I left. I had already filed. On the one hand, yeah, it was kinda quick to get involved with someone (pot, kettle - I know) so she's a rebound for sure. By the time I plucked up enough courage to bring up reconciliation, he was already seeing her - and he told me no. On the other hand, I sorta can't blame him for dating. The whole dating while divorcing thing is so grey.
So, it hurts that he's seeing her. It makes me angry that he's seeing her. But I don't feel betrayed like I did with OW1. And that's why I'm being patient. For now.
I'm open to suggestions for what to do about the anger, though - as well as input on how to handle the OW sitch it anything thinks there's a better/ different way to go about it.
Hi Dia
I have just checked out the links to the dresses. They are absolutely beautiful. You can't get anything like that here where I live. All the good stuff is where you are.
Oz
Hi OZ!
Aren't they gorgeous!?!?! I like that red peasant dress.. Can't they ship to Oz?
I may order it, but not if you are, because we wouldn't want to show up in the same dress here, ya know? LOL
Hi mindful
They ship to Oz but you have to place your order by mail or fax not through the website, really odd.
I love the peasant dress but as I am on the shorter side may be too long so go for it, but the white one would be a perfect length, going to have a browse and see what else there is. I have taken to trying to buy a new stunning outfit each week and then enjoying H's reaction, definitely not manipulative.
Dia:
Now about you...
Doesn't OW live far away? When does he actually see her (other than web chatting)?
What does she think of you spending so much time there? You know you're not a little bit of a threat, don't you? I would hope you don't discount your presence!
And, your son... don't forget the glue that binds you.
I can't tell ya what to do with that anger. But, help me understand... I read back to Page 1, and come up with... So, H cheated on you w/one of your best friends. You walk-away, and end up filing for D. In the meantime, you find yourself an OM, and eventually break it off w/him. You have then decided you want to reconcile w/H, but not H has a new OW#2 (current), and he's not willing to break it off w/her. However, you are increasingly ever present at H's and kidlets home, until you, you know, get your own pad (coughcough).
Wow. OW doesn't know the power of DIA! Or, she'd be a constant visual and emotional presence!
She, my dear, is what I call, a dumbas$!
Get rid of the anger... you're making remarkable progress. He'll get it, as he's beginning to already!
PS - Maybe you should adorn yourself in only bells the next time he walks through the door for dinner!
Oz... Haha Me, too! It does wonders for the cc bill! Hey, it's not (all) my fault he's driven me to this!
Oh, gosh, MF - order away. If we show up in the same dress, we'll just put our arms around each other's waists and say we're DB sisters.
Sorry - show tunes flashback time! Sing it, ladies!!
I slipped out this afternoon
And bought some love insurance:
A most exclusive dress from gay Paree.
It's sleek and chic and magnifique
With sex beyond endurance.
It's me, it's me, it's absolutely me;
And why? One guy.
This irresistible Paris original
I'm wearing tonight,
I'm wearing tonight
'Specially for him.
This irresistible Paris original's
All paid for and mine;
I must look divine
'Specially for him.
Suddenly he will see me
And suddenly he'll go dreamy
And blame it all on his own
Masculine whim,
Never knowing that
This irresistible Paris original,
So temptingly tight
I'm wearing tonight
'Specially for him, for him.
This irresistible Paris original,
I'm wearing tonight,
She's wearing tonight
And I could spit.
Some irresponsible dress manufacturer
Just didn't play fair.
I'm one of a pair,
And I could---oh no!
This irresistible Paris original,
All slinky with sin;
Already slunk in
And I could die.
And I could kill her.
This irresistible Paris original,
Tres sexy, n'est-ce pas?
Goddammit, voila
And I could spit.
Oh!
Thirty-nine bucks I hand out
For something to make me stand out
And suddenly I've gone into mimeograph.
Some laugh!
This irresistible Paris original,
This mass-produced crime,
I'm wearing tonight
For the very last time!
Hi Dia
I think mindful is spot on, you are in H's home, not OW. Obviously OW is not so great but DIA certainly is. I am sure your H is noticing it is obvious.
I would also just let go of the anger, it won't serve any great purpose as he appears to be waking up.
Definitely just wear bells next time, watch his jaw hit the floor.
That would be so cool, walking down the street in the same dresses, saying you are DB sisters. Worthy of a video clip complete with song.
Not my fault either that the CC bill is high, new big boys toys will kill it more than my one little outfit each week.
Dia:
Now about you...
Doesn't OW live far away? When does he actually see her (other than web chatting)?
What does she think of you spending so much time there? You know you're not a little bit of a threat, don't you? I would hope you don't discount your presence!
Actually, I'm dead sure that I'm one huge mofo of a threat as far as she's concerned. I can't imagine that she doesn't know I'm here - why else would the contact pattern suddenly have changed?
I read back to Page 1, and come up with... So, H cheated on you w/one of your best friends. You walk-away, and end up filing for D. In the meantime, you find yourself an OM, and eventually break it off w/him. You have then decided you want to reconcile w/H, but not H has a new OW#2 (current), and he's not willing to break it off w/her. However, you are increasingly ever present at H's and kidlets home, until you, you know, get your own pad (coughcough).
Yep, that's the short version, except OM was present as an EA before I left. I was going to break it off with OM when I found out about OW - so then I didn't.
PS - Maybe you should adorn yourself in only bells the next time he walks through the door for dinner!
Oooh! Now this I like.
All I have to say is...
Hahahahha Hahahahah Haha
I'm open to suggestions for what to do about the anger, though - as well as input on how to handle the OW sitch it anything thinks there's a better/ different way to go about it.
It IS ok to feel the anger. Just make sure you control it and not the other way around. I have it from time to time. If I suppress it, that just leads to more anger and resentment. But, if I allow it to run its course, away from W, I have the same experience as you - the anger goes away. Maybe I have a really tough work out or run when I am angry, and then it's all better.
As for what you could do differently, I think GFO and MF have this covered. You are doing fine and YOU, NOT OW, is in your H's house with your S. Who's winning there?
You (and I) just have to keep working at what we have learned and be, repeat after me, patient. Oh, feel free to dole out this same advice to me tomorrow when I have forgotten it.
Your doing great.
Dia,
I used to enjoy reading your post but you've turned into such a, such a....such a girl. :-)
Evening recap...
So right as I was typing the bit about learning to be ok with my feelings, H pipes up with some ruminations about the potluck. He said that while he didn't experience any social anxiety at the function, he was feeling a surge of rebound anxiety now that he was home. He said he thinks he *was* anxious at the function, but was stuffing it as long as he was there. I listened, I asked leading questions and the anxiety seemed to be related to the usual am I good enough, witty enough, will people like me, etc. and had nothing to do with 'what are people thinking of me showing up here with my alleged ex-wife?' (Note to self: Big holy deal here!! He revealed inner feelings/experiences. This is a huge first!)
So I told him what I told you folks about working so hard in IC on allowing myself to name and feel my feelings, and how that made life so much easier, made the negative feelings so much less of a burden, etc. When I first started talking, he rolled his eyes as if I was going to lecture him or something, but I was careful with my language and made sure I only talked about me. Midway through, he was listening with interest and said there was wisdom there, stuff he would have to think on and take to heart.
Then we ended up on the same couch with H's toes tucked under my butt for warmth. And I got a very vivid lesson on why the man won't allow me to come anywhere near his bed.
When he falls asleep, all the walls come down and he's besotted in love with me. He shifted a bit while reading and I looked up from my book and into his eyes. He made kiss motions at me and gave me three sleepy squeezes, which I returned. Then he fell fast asleep with his nose still in the book.
About 10 min later, I softly asked him if he was sleeping (it was bedtime for kidlet). He blinked, and said yes, his feet were warm.
Dang rollercoaster! But the good outweighs the bad and hey - I got an 'I love you' tonight and that's progress even if it was non-verbal and half-asleep.
@ C-Bart - LOL! Terribly sorry, but yes, I am distressingly female. So what did it for you - the girl-girl bonding, the talk of bells and dresses or me turning into a green-eyed monster? <grinning>
I'm gonna keep hanging out on this thread. Nobody here thinks I'm a guy.
LOL, Kett. C'mon, if you wanted people to think you're a girl, you should have picked a name that ends with a vowel.
Besides, I know my Queens and sorceresses.
Have you ever taken the MBTI, though, Kett? If you're a TJ female, that might be why, aside from the screen name, people mistake you for male here.
I always knew you were female but kind of like one of the guys. Then you go all soft and start talking about dresses and bells.
Hopefully you know I'm kidding you. It was actually a nice refrain from some of the crazy stuff we are all going through.
Yep, we find little pockets of joy where we may, and kidding is part and parcel. It keeps us all sane.
LOL, Kett. C'mon, if you wanted people to think you're a girl, you should have picked a name that ends with a vowel.
LOL...I couldn't even name the coach of the Red Sox. I was going for anonymity. I may change to DBer formerly known as RedSoxFan
...or maybe just a symbol...huh?
RedSoxFan - Ha! Kind of like Prince...
I need to go read your thread. I think I've followed you around enough, harassing and doing LOL's in your wake.
PS - Hi Dia!!! The Kilt was closed! Sh!t!
INFJ, actually. No, I think it's because (a) I grew up around guys and prefer their company in many ways and (b) shift into a logic-is-king POV as armor for dealing with life's less-pleasant vicissitudes, which we're loaded with here. Like you, I wasn't really encouraged to display or succumb to those nonsensical female emotions, growing up.
Glad you know your queens. She's my favorite.
INFP, here. My sis and my dad are INFJs.
As for screennames, mine is short for Diotima, namely Diotima of Mantinea. Thing is, if I use 'Diotima', then people call me Dio which is odd for me on several levels.
Interesting morning. Disrupted night - cat squabbles, kidlet dreamed there were scorpions in his bed so little sleep for me. After I comforted the freaked out kidlet, I sent him to sleep in the master bed with his dad - no scorpions there. Our alpha female kitty still objects to the new kitty's presence, though that is slowly getting better. The two male cats are buddies now, eating from the same dish and playing chase with each other.
So this morning, I was *not* ready to face the day. I asked H if he would handle getting the kidlet to school so I could claim an extra hour of sleep. There was a point during that hour where he came in, stood by the bed and just looked at me. I was too asleep to speak or respond, but I could feel him there.
After I got up, he and I curled up on the couch just talking about stuff. Not touching, but there was this very intimate feel to it, and his gaze at me was more openly tender than I've seen it so far.
Ch-ch-ch-changes.
Kidlet scored a sleepover with a boy from his class tomorrow night, so I will be suggesting an anniversary date w/o calling it a date. There are some jazz clubs here, and a Argentine place with Tango music. I've never been to either one.
Oh, and H is not doing his movie night tonight. He said he felt he had too many evening activities scheduled and he wanted to be home. Hmmmm... Not reading too much into that as I also know he wants to work on his game, but he was conflicted when he told me he'd be home tonight, so he's wrestling with something.
He also mentioned seeing Laurel when he was dropping off kidlet, the woman I mentioned last night who told me I had it made. Gossip is the wrong word for her as she doesn't maliciously tell tales, but I swear the woman knows *everything* that goes on in this town. There may have been a convo there.
I have a dress all picked out for Friday dinner if it happens. It's chocolate brown with a wrap style top - so low cut - then shirred at the waist with a nice flouncy skirt. I'll have to check my shoes, but I think I have some gold, strappy wedges that will do the trick nicely. Then again, H seems to like the dress with the dangly ties, so that one's possible too.
Ok, off to work with me.
Have a great day, everyone!
MF - I'm not so sure The Kilt will have your bells. It looked more like pricey Irish than Ren Fair - good woolens, shortbread molds, claddaghs galore?
Maybe, tho - you know it better than I do.
Sent the following email to H re: diner tomorrow night to which he's supposedly already agreed.
----------------------
Hey, there,
Are we still on for dinner tomorrow night? If we are, I thought it might be nice to go to a more grown-up place since kidlet will be on a sleepover.
Here are some places that interest me:
* Ca Dario - nice italian, maybe like that place near the old Richmond condo?
* SOHO - jazz and supper club, bands playing will be The English Beat and Rice Rockit. (???)
I'm also up for anything you suggest.
Cheers,
DiaTactic: Make it easy. Give him choices and the final say so he feels like he's in control.
Dai, I can't believe three things:
1. The W is back
2. You are doing so well.
3. You can't see that your journey is over!
You've got everything going for you. I can see other people giving you such positive feedback. EXACTLY what I was being told.
You keep going girl - your problem is going to be when YOU decide that the "problem" is finally over.
And your dress sense is superb
Enjoy, enjoy, ENJOY
Hugs
Mac (And the Mrs)
Hey, Mac - good to see you! I was lurking in your old thread just last night wondering if you were ever coming back.
Good on you about you and the Mrs.!
And EVERYONE should be happy.
W just said "it's nice to be home and nice to hold you".
And I agree wholeheartedly.
Goals guys - set goals and GO FOR THEM.
Hugs from me and my much better half
Whoop Whoop!
Mac
OMG - I have a dinner date at a romantic Italian restaurant with my husband!!!
Somebody hit me with a 2x4 quick - how do you have no expectations on a date?? And do I give him his card and present at the restaurant, before, after - what? (Present is bulky...)
Hi, Dia,
Let's try Ca Dario. I don't think I've been there. SoHo is good if you're there for the show, but it seemed more clubby than restauranty when I was there.
H.
<Dia floats off, humming "When the moon hits your eye..."
You really can't carry a tune Dia :-)
.... like a big pizza pie - that's amore
YEHAAAAA - bollox to the expectations. You're WAY past expectations and you know it.
Breath girl - keep breathing - go with the flow
Mac
This is really awesome. Almost all of our romantic dinners have been at this kind of Italian restaurant. Northern Italian rather than the standard pizza/pasta. There was one by our old condo in the Bay area, and one near our house in the IE. We haven't found one here yet, but maybe Ca Dario is it.
And - when given a choice between a place where we could listen to music and maintain a polite distance (the jazz club) or the romantic place with a something of a personal history to it, he picked the place with the history.
Now I have to figure out what to wear. Let the girliness begin!
This sounds wonderful.
Scare deer = bad.
Make deer's eyeballs pop out and melt deer's heart with your lighthearted, flirtatious, meaningful-glance-darting, sensual toothsomeness = gooooooooooooooooooood.
This sounds wonderful.
Scare deer = bad.
Make deer's eyeballs pop out and melt deer's heart with your lighthearted, flirtatious, meaningful-glance-darting, sensual toothsomeness = gooooooooooooooooooood.
Agreed!
I'm still leaning toward the brown dress - just not sure I have the shoes to go with, and I *know* i have no time to shop. All of my CFMPs might be in storage.... drat!
Expectations: Am not expecting a card or a gift. Am not expecting to be kissed (tho I'd be delighted if it happened). Am expecting good food, maybe a glass of wine and pleasant conversation. That seems reasonable, yes?
Yes.
(If your h. is anything like my h., make all possible effort with shoes. But if his preference is bohemian, it might not matter so much. Definitely *walk* like you're wearing heels even if you aren't, though .... IYKWIM.)
Kett - I have a medium heeled chunky, huarache-styled sandal that may do the trick... I'll try to find a pic but I have to run errands for work at present.
Re: expectations - this *did* just cross my mind - if he's really up and out for revenge, he'll pop me with D papers because I filed on our anniv. 2 years ago. But I'm *really* not getting that vibe at all.
Ooooooo, don't go there. It will mess with your "act as if".
I hear you, Kett - but I think in this case it was *good* for my act as if. See, once the thought occurred to me, I decided that if it happened I'd just laugh, put them aside and say I'd look at them tomorrow. Tonight, I was going to enjoy my dinner and his company.
You have an auspicious B-day, Coach. It's our anniversary, his mother's birthday and his parents' anniversary as well.
May it be a day filled with blessings for you!
</cue "Skyrockets in flight, afternoon delight...">
Dia:
Way to go!!! I'm so happy for you!
Get those crazy thoughts right out of your head!
Hi, Cas and MF,
Cas - I lurked over in your sitch today. Glad your boss was smart enough to give you the day at home.
H-kitty has been following me. I made my default 'easy' supper tonight - spaghetti, and when it was ready, I took mine out on the deck to eat. H not only followed me, but pulled up a chair, sat with me while we ate, chatted about this and that, showed me a game on his i-phone, etc.
We talked about wanting to sit higher on the deck so we could see the water better. We paced out an area where a platform could be built, then I said that really, it would be easier to just get a pub table and chairs. He really liked that idea. Maybe once I have a few paychecks under my belt, I'll surprise him by having a set 'appear' on the deck.
Hmmm, and I just got an en passant caress down the back, too.
"Curiouser and curiouser," said Alice.
Last night was quiet. I started my primping early with a mani/pedi and Adventures in Depilation. Last time I had my toenails painted, I think I was 7 and my mother did it.
The only nail polish I had on hand was a demure shell pink, so low on the hoochie scale but the dress will fix that.
I did get a present this morning, and it's a really wonderful one, too. H had a hardcover book made at Shutterfly.com. It has 20 pages and is chock full of pictures of kidlet that H has taken.
I also gave him his present but not his card. He liked the present (a grill basket for veggies) and we'll probably break it in over the weekend.
H was stressy and preoccupied this morning but none of it to do with me - or nothing he voiced, at least.
Dia!
Ha! I just bought a grill basket! Seems dumb to say out loud, so I'll type it... "Don't touch it! It gets hot!" DUH!
The blonde in me came out, and left me w/a nice burn!
MF - LOL! I would *totally* do that, and yes, I'm a natural blonde as well. Sounds like Bill Engvall joke too - "Here's your sign."
Spent my lunch hour doing another large cleaning and de-cluttering project. Ugh! I tackled the bar in the kitchen and half of the LR. Slowly but surely this place will be clean, organized and homey.
The good side is that de-cluttering is a huge stress reducer for both H and me. Looking back, in the days when we had a once-a-week housecleaning service, we virtually *always* had awesome sex that night.
It's amazing how much it increases desire when you can walk in your front door and not see squalor and/or a bunch of cleaning projects that chip away at your PMA or niggle for your attention.
The downside is now I'm so dusty and sticky that I'll need another shower before we go out. Bleah!
It's good that you're pinpointing some of the issues that seems like such little penny ante things, but can make the difference between perceiving your home (and by natural extension, your spouse) as a delightful, peaceful haven or just one more thing to stress out about.
I think you received a *great*, thought-out, personal anniversary gift. HUGE.
I do believe I will sweep my h. off to a romantic Italian dinner tonight, in solidarity. Can't hurt; grin.
Nibble a breadstick... or something... in my honor, Kett. <brazen grin>
Have fun Dia. Congrats on getting this far.
Well done Dia, what a lovely present he gave you, a lot of thought went into that.
I will toast your success when I sit on my balcony tomorrow for a day of me time.
Oz
Love the gift he chose for you, Dia.
H is due home somewhere in the next half hour to 90 mins, depending on errands, traffic and whether or not he left work early. Our reservation is for 7:45 to allow enough time for showers, kidlet management and a bit of relaxing before we head out. H mentioned that he would want a snack when he got home for blood sugar reasons, but he was looking forward to the meal.
1) I am less primped than usual. Reason: to provide greater contrast once I don The Dress, The Shoes, The Jewelry, etc.
2) On the newly pristine and gleaming bar there is a plate containing fresh grapes and a fresh tomato and mozzarella dish drizzled with olive oil, balsamic vinegar and a chiffonade of fresh basil. The tomatoes and basil are from his garden.
3) There is music on - the CD he gave me. I opted not to play our love-making music as I didn't want to scare the deer. I'd like this all to feel like any intimacy/affection is HIS idea - if that makes sense.
4) His anniv. card is propped between the cheese plate and the grapes. It's a low key card with a cute cartoon of a furry animal hugging himself. It reads... "Just a hug... Just for you... <open card> ... Just because. I wrote in "Happy Anniversary - Love, Dia"
And I am holding tight to - NO EXPECTATIONS!
Oh, and about the photo book - While I was marveling over it, I asked him how long it had taken him to make and he said a few hours, but to be fair, he'd actually created an identical(?) one for his mother. But when our anniversary came up, he thought it would be a good gift for me. Personally, this doesn't take anything away for me as even so I know he had to have ordered it at least two weeks ago.
We're all here, Dia, reading every post and wishing you every success tonight!
Thank you SO much Tristan, MF, Cas, Oz, Kett, GIMA, Mac, C-Bart, Coach and all you lurkers out there. The support on this site has done SO much to help me stay positive, and I'm certain that my PMA has contributed to the progress so far.
Ok Dia, its 709 Ak time, so you have been on your dinner date for 24 minutes... I hope that things are going well!!! Good luck! Update us, if you arent busy...
So we went for a final summer patio evening at one of our fav places instead of Italian. We sat under the overhang so we stayed put when it started to rain .... very romantic. That's gotta count.
Thinking of you .....
It was a good evening. There was lots of salacious banter - one might even call it flirtation. I was attentive, I was charming, I hung on his every word, drew him out and told a few amusing stories. There was lots of cleavage. The restaurant was a bit loud, so I had to lean forward. I toyed with my hair. We passed bites of our dishes back and forth on our forks. Later, I ate an ice cream cone, and yes, he watched.
A few of the highlights:
On the deck while H is eating the tomatoes and mozzarella. I'm smiling at him as we talk about our day.
H: You look happy. In fact, you're glowing.
-------------------------------
In the car, him trying to get his i-phone out of his pocket.
H: Hang on, I want to play with my toy.
Dia: Oooh, and you're pulling over to play to play with your toy in the car. Kinky.
H (mock surprise): Oh no! We've run out of gas. I guess we'll have to (H lifts his hips) .... play video games. (...and whips i-phone out of pocket)
(H attempts to call up GPS feature on i-phone - and waits... and waits...)
Dia (innocently): Would you like me to hold it for you so you can drive?
H: (nearly chokes, then laughs - note: he bought the innocent act. I play a pretty good straight man.)
H: Yes, I want you to take it in your hand and hold on to it.
(And for those of you who don't know about the i-phone interface, there's stroking involved.)
------------------------------
Walking back to the car from the restaurant:
H: Wow, a grown-up night out. We didn't plan it that way; it just sort of happened. Kidlet at a sleepover and all. And it's the best thing that could have happened, too.
------------------------------
During my goodnight hug:
One of H's hands drifts a little low on the small of my back.
H (next to my ear, but not quite a whisper): I like your choice of underwear. (I'll let you folks speculate on that one.)
---------------------------------------
In the hall outside his bedroom as he's turning in:
Dia: I want to kiss something of yours. Choose a spot and present it.
H: (presents his cheek - Dia kisses low near the jawline and close to the ear.)
---------------------------
So, a good time was had by all. There were no declarations of undying love and no hot monkey sex, but I wasn't expecting that.
Oh, and my anniversary card is standing alone in a place of honor on the buffet I cleaned off a few weeks ago. And he really marveled over the cleaning I did today. Specifically, he said I fixed the areas that were causing him the most discomfort.
Ooooooo ..... !!!!! Shall be watching this one pan out ... !!
Good luck ... welll played!
Wow. Extraordinarily well done to you Dia. Your patience is paying dividends!
Speculation: conspicuous by absence?
Please take it as a compliment when I say: Well played, sir.
Kett: Ding Ding Ding!!
And I got another, similar hug this morning - I wonder if he was 'checking'? <grin?>
I wager he won't be able to see me in a dress after this w/o wondering.
Nell, Blue and Cas - thanks for the props.
It was a good night. I woke up very happy, and H noted that I was smiling in my sleep this morning.
Our guest room has become a repository of boxes and detritus, so I set myself the task of mucking it out an making it functional. So far, I've sorted through a good 15 file boxes of books, old mail and other types of things that get thrown in boxes when you don't know what else to do with them.
Coupla interactions:
Dia to H about the sorting piles in the dining room: Don't worry - I won't let this mess stay like this.
H: Oh, it's fine. I know you won't. You've got a great track record on that stuff.
Excellent! The 180s on clutter and mess have worked perfectly.
Also, In sorting through notebooks, I found several pages of notes for a new character class I'd created for one of the games we play. I showed them to H and asked what we should do with them and he said, "Let's keep them." It's hard to explain exactly why that's significant but it sure felt that way.
I don't know about the significance of the notes but "Let's keep them" implies both a shared decision and a need for them in the future which is bound to feel good
I think you hit it squarely on the head, Cas.
Wow, another HUGE interaction.
As I was sorting through boxes, I found a pic of our son when he was about 2 years old. He's holding a little plant that was a gift for something like Mother's Day or Father's Day. I showed the pic to H, who gazed at it for a long moment and remarked how tiny kidlet was.
I turned around to a newly organized bookshelf and found a place for the photo. As I turned to leave, H called my name - I wasn't sure I heard him.
Dia: Yes? Did you call me?
H: When I look at that picture, I feel guilt.
He went on to express doubts and vulnerabilities about himself as a father. He asked me outright if he was a bad father. I stroked his shoulder and listened. Then I said that I felt the same way - that there were times when I felt I was a bad mother, that I had doubts and insecurities, too. I told him I didn't think he was a bad father, and I gave a list of the really great stuff he's been doing with and for kidlet lately. I told him how impressed I was.
Then I said that when I had those guilts and insecurities of my own, I used them to power change, to make me a *better* mother.
He listened. He nodded.
H: Thank you, Dia. Thank you for comforting me. I needed to hear those things from you because that's not what I thought.
(i.e. He thought I thought he was a bad father.)
This makes twice in 2 or three days that he's felt comfortable sharing a troubling inner reality with me, a vulnerability, an insecurity.
My interpretation: He's beginning to open up to me. He's beginning to trust me, and more specifically, to trust that I won't hurt him when he's vulnerable. He's beginning to let me in.
This is very, very good.
He's beginning to open up to me. He's beginning to trust me, and more specifically, to trust that I won't hurt him when he's vulnerable. He's beginning to let me in.
This is great progress Dia and a lesson for us all that this 'letting in' takes a long, long time. May patience continue to be with you.
It's certainly making me rethink my position......
Hi Dia
It sounds like your evening was a magnificent success. You should be really proud of what you have achieved and where you are at in your R now. Well done!!
Hi Dia, I just read thru your situation. You really are inspiring. Coming so far , I wish I had your strength.
Dusk
Dia, a question for you, if I may?
I've read back through your earlier threads and I can see the enormous progress you have made over the months. I am hoping some clarification about early days may help the rest of us.
I read of you and H having email contact in the days before you moved to H's home town. Were you always in contact and the quality and quantity of contact has ramped up over time or was there a period when the two of you had no contact? I understand there was a certain time when you thought you wanted to reconcile and wonder how you got to the stage that you would be able to stay over at H's place.
Hope this makes sense to you
With thanks,
Cas
Hi, Cas,
I left, taking kidlet with me, in August of '07. For the first several months, there was almost no contact at all between me and H. He didn't even call to talk to the kidlet between once-a-month visitation, and if I didn't take the initiative to schedule the visitations, they didn't happen. I'm pretty sure it wasn't that he didn't want to see the kidlet - I think it was trauma and depression. For my part, I was still blindly angry at him and was flinging myself fairly headlong into a PA with OM.
During that time, we were scheduling calls maybe once a month to try to come to terms on the divorce settlement. We weren't very regular about that, looking back, it was obvious that I didn't want to pursue the divorce because I was so lackadaisical about getting the papers done.
Also during this time, if I had weak moments where I missed him or my resolve faltered about the divorce, I took out the IM transcripts of his chat sessions with OW and I read them. And wouldn't you know that by the time I finished doing that, I was mad as hell - and wounded to the core - all over again. I know people say to get proof if you think there's an OP, but in retrospect, I think that my reading and re-reading of those chat logs was harmful, not helpful. If I hadn't done that, I think we'd have been back together withing 2-3 months, before he'd had time to meet OW2.
When we hit the holidays, the first Thanksgiving and Christmas apart, I backed off on the papers. Didn't want to ruin people's holidays with it. It was also during the holidays that I *really* missed him and started thinking seriously about reconciliation. I don't know if I asked him first about it during the holidays or around Valentine's Day, but I had actually put my wedding rings back on before I asked.
Whenever it was that I asked, he told me no, that he was seeing someone and not the original OW who had been my best friend. I was crushed. OM had felt my pullback and had really given me hell for not pushing to get the papers done over the holidays. And when I say he gave me hell, I mean that OM was verbally and emotionally abusive, not just then, but all throughout my R with him. So broken-hearted and hesitant, I said to H that if he was seeing a new woman, that I guessed there wasn't any reason for me to continue to hold back in my R with OM. H said he was surprised to hear that I had been holding back at all, but no, there wasn't any reason for me to do so.
So for the next several months, I tried to make it work with OM. HA! That R was DOA from the getgo. But then things got really complicated. OM had moved about 3000 miles to be near me. And he was pushing for use to move in together. I consented. I was fine renting a place, but OM was adamant that we buy something instead. So by the end of April, OM and I were in escrow on a house.
There was still only minimal contact between me and H. Visitation stuff and D settlement only. Kidlet and I moved in with OM in mid-June. To be honest, I knew it was doomed before we even moved in. One of OM's forms of abuse was to break it off with me a good 2 to 3 times a month, complete with screaming obscenities. He never did it in front of kidlet, and within 3 dys or so, he'd say he was sorry, he never meant it, etc. But see, by then we had this *&%@# house and I couldn't afford to move out.
I was in the house with OM for pretty much a full year but I slept in the guest room for most of it. I don't remember exactly when it happened, but eventually, when OM would break up with me, I just told him "Ok." Later he'd say we were back together, and I'd just look at him. He'd refused to put my name on the papers for the house so in addition to breaking up with me, he was also threatening to throw kidlet and me into the street a few times a month, too. When I'd finally had enough, I just walked out and went to my parents with only an overnight bag. (Kidlet was away on visitation.) OM and I tried to live in the house as roommates only, but that didn't change anything. The abuse continued. He only ever laid hands on me once, but he threw things (including at me), kicked things or punched things (walls, doors, the bed) that were right beside me, usually w/in inches of my head. And yes, I called 911, and yes, I was an idiot for staying as long as I did (and for moving in in the first place, and for the whole EA/PA period).
But back to contact with H...
So somewhere in all of this, after the first year of separation, kidlet told me that H was standing in his bedroom and kidlet heard him say out loud, really sadly, "I miss Dia." He didn't say it *to* kidlet. In fact, H didn't know kidlet heard it. This was my first indication that he even still had feelings for me.
Actually, I suppose that's not true. Sometimes I'd call H from my office (couldn't let OM catch me), and despite the immense pain, we'd said "I love you" once or twice. About every 3 months or so, not planned and not regular, I'd be up in the middle of the night unable to sleep and I'd write long emails to H. In them, I started taking responsibility for my role in things, apologizing for stuff, sharing reflections. H never really wrote back to these, so to this day I don't know what effect they had. I asked him more than once to consider reconciling, and he kept saying no. He had too many negative feelings, he didn't want to be hurt again.
Backtracking, I made a secret email address so I could talk to H w/o OM knowing. There definitely started to be more contact after I did that. Little stuff. A link to an article or a funny picture - stuff like that. And those long 'dark night of the soul' emails I mentioned above. This was about a year in, maybe.
H knew the R with OM had gone sour. He was worried about me, though he still doesn't know the extent of OM's abuse - and again, OM never did it in front of kidlet, not until once or twice at the very end as I was walking out.
As we came into spring this year (approx. 1.5 years post-sep), there was a lot more casual contact between me and H. Calls that started as stuff about kidlet, but lengthened into half an hour or 45 mins of pleasant chatting. Sometimes I'd call him just to talk. The manner between us became ... friendly.
Toward the summer, I started seriously job hunting and H knew I was (secretly) planning to move out of the house with OM, but to do that, I had to have a decent job. There was nothing available near me, so I mentioned the possibility of widening my search and maybe including H town. That's when he said it - "It would be nice to have you back up here."
From that point, I stopped looking anywhere but H's town. He told me that if I got any interviews, it would be ok to 'crash' at his place to do the interview. So I started going up for interviews at first, then I went up w/o any interviews scheduled just so I could job hunt on the ground, so to speak, from up there.
There was a blow up in the middle of all of this - the job hunting days. It was getting close to school starting and I didn't have a job lined up. I needed to make the decision about where to enroll kidlet for school. I asked H if we could move in temporarily while I continued my job search. He said no. He said I should just let him have kidlet and me live down south. I said no. I told him that I needed to reconsider the move then because I wasn't going to put that much distance between me and kidlet.
I had an apartment down south all lined up when I went up for what was to be my last week job hunting in H's town. If there was no job by the end of that week, I was moving into the apartment down south and enrolling kidlet down there. I had told H several weeks earlier that I wasn't going to be pursuing the divorce anymore, so that if he wanted it to happen, he'd have to divorce me. Initially, he was annoyed about that but he hasn't said word one about it for many weeks.
I had been apartment hunting up north, too, but with no job in hand, it's not like I could actually have rented anything. I talked to my FIL about the apartment sitch, the fact that I was competing with students because of the time of year and FIL offered to talk to H to see if I could stay here 'temporarily'. Keep in mind that H had already told me no a few weeks earlier. Well, when FIL talked to him, he said it would be ok.
So in the final week of job hunting, I landed a temp thing and my grandmother died suddenly. In all of the resulting chaos, I didn't follow up on the apartment down south. I packed my car (again) and here I am only now I have a permanent job.
H and I have never had a direct conversation about how long I'm staying. In fact, H never told me directly that I could stay - it was all third hand through FIL. As a matter of fact, I don't even know what FIL said to H. All I know is that I'm allowed to stay but it's allegedly short-term.
The reality is that my current salary won't allow me to move out by myself much less with kidlet. That's a blessing in disguise, really.
So to summarize, there was very minimal contact for the first 6-9 months. After a year, we could talk more easily to each other, and by a year and a half, things felt friendly.
As far as the divorce, we did get all the way to filing the final judgement, but we did the papers ourselves and they kept getting kicked back on technicalities. The last time I filed them was mid-January, and I told H then that if they got kicked back that time, I wasn't going to file them again because it meant that the Universe didn't want us to get divorced. And it doesn't!
Not sure if that's what you wanted to know, and it's dam& long-winded, but there you go! Hope it helps.
Wow Dia - what a story! Certainly gives me hope - you are inspirational.
Good luck - you are doing a grand job. Keep posting ... I will be lurking!
I looked back through the secret email acct. I created it on 8/25/08, almost exactly 1 year post-separation.
2008
Sept - 40 emails
Oct - 26 emails
Nov - 14 emails
Dec - 18 emails
2009
Jan - 13 emails
Feb - 3 emails
March - 23 emails
April - 44 emails
May - 74 emails
June - 63 emails
July - 119 emails
August - almost none - because I'm here.
Maybe it's different for every WAW, but for me, it looked like this.
Note that I'm only talking about me. In large part, that's because he wasn't talking. During our settlement talks, he talked about wanting to work on our communication, to work on our relationship, not as married partners but as... whatever we were to each other at the time. I was willing, but whenever I'd try to talk about it, he wouldn't. Go figure.
Anyhow, this email is dated 10/02/08, about 14 months post-sep. I'm clearly out of the fog and had been for some time, really.
----------------------
10/02/08
Subj: On rejection...
This may be difficult to read, so please read it at a time when it's not going to interfere with work or otherwise spoil whatever you have going on . I'd also like to clarify the tone of the message. Please try not to interpret anything I'm going to say as an attack, or a laundry list of complaints. I am not writing this to berate or insult you, or to express bitterness, anger, etc. I'm writing this in an attempt to communicate openly and honestly about some thoughts and reflections I've had about our marriage. I'm hoping you will be able to read this with an open mind and an open heart. I'm hoping you will truly *listen*, and in listening, that you will try to see things through my eyes - not because I think I'm right (and I'll be admitting places where I've been quite wrong) - but because it may bring understanding and empathy.
I think our number one problem was feelings of rejection - on both sides. I felt utterly rejected, unloved and devalued, and I know you did, too. I know you were telling me that you loved me, but from your actions, it was hard to read anything but avoidance, disinterest and dislike. It seemed you'd rather be anywhere or doing anything than spending time with me. I felt like your computer, alcohol, your friends, your games, your various activities all came first, and I got the leftovers, if anything. I felt abandoned and worthless.
When I think back on our date nights, I think that we made a good effort, we tried. But as I ponder it, I think maybe in a marriage, in a family, instead of one or two nights a week set aside for spouse and/or family, maybe it should be the other way around. Maybe MOST nights should be for spouse and family, and one or two nights get set aside for friends or outside activities.
One of the ways I tried to cope was by using my own computer as a shield. If I could convince myself (and you, too) that I was happily gaming or surfing, then I didn't feel the rejection so keenly when it seemed that you'd rather be on your computer than be with me. Sometimes it was even kind of petty, and I mean ME being petty. On the one hand, it was very logical and practical for me to schedule online gaming sessions on the same nights you did. But I remember one time in particular when your game got cancelled on short notice and you came to me to spend time together. To do so, I'd have had to cancel what I was doing, too. It felt unfair. I felt like I was second best, like the friend you only call when everybody else is busy. I felt like there was an assumption on your part that nothing I was doing carried the same importance or value as what you were doing. So I told you no, and I was kinda snarky about it. I'm sorry.
In reality, I'd have loved for you to lavish attention on me, and me lavish attention on you. I'd have loved to cuddle and read to each other, to touch, laugh, talk and make love. But not as an afterthought, not as second best.
I know you felt rejected over my computer use as well, and for that I apologize. In the months we've been apart, I've re-evaluated my thoughts on cybersex. It was harmful to our relationship. It allowed me, even encouraged me, to seek affection and emotional attention from someone other than you. Though I never meant it to be a threat to our relationship, it was. It was like a crack that allowed rot to seep in. What I got from them, I wanted from you - and I should have been seeking from you and only you. This was entirely my error and my fault. I apologize deeply and profusely for hurting you and for hurting our marriage.
I still game, but there is no cyber and there hasn't been since I left the Shelby house. In fact, there pretty much wasn't for several months before I left either. I think I was beginning to see that it was hurting us, and that it wasn't what I really wanted anyway. Maybe if I'm completely single, I might try it again sometime but I doubt it. And in a relationship, I will never do it again. I've decided that at least for me, it's dangerous and wrong - not because I form too strong an attachment to the other person, but because it allows my relationship with my partner to languish and starve.
Looking back on our mutual computer use, I think we often used the computer as a shield, as a way of avoiding rejection. "If I'm busy with this, then I don't have to risk him/her wanting to do something else besides spend time with me." Unfortunately, this only created that which we feared and sough to avoid - which was rejection.
Unless you tell me you don't want to hear them, you may get more emails like this - expressing thoughts and feelings about us. Is this ok?
Dia
----------
*note re: cybersex - I never hid this. He knew and said he didn't care. It was part of online gaming where one role-plays characters, and sometimes relationships. I say this by way of explanation, not by way of defense. My (re)assessment of it above stands.
And note re: date nights - we virtually always watched movies at home on date nights. Sounds great and sometimes it was, but H gets really annoyed if people talk during date nights, so much of the time we watched the movie in complete silence. Not great for someone whose LL is QT (me). And by the time the movie was done, it was 11 pm and we were too tired to talk or ML. And trying to ML before the movie, well, I needed him to actually TALK TO ME first, and at the time, he was resenting that.
Hello Dia,
I just finished reading your post (lurking)…what a remarkable story. I truly hope you guys find it possible to be back into each other’s hearts once again. Your one statement about “looking back, it was obvious that I didn't want to pursue the divorce because I was so lackadaisical about getting the papers done” really stood out for me. Did you know you were stalling at the time or was it subconscious? My W threatened to file for divorce back in May, but did not. Just two weeks ago, my W again threatened to file for divorce. I’m yet to be served with papers.
I keep telling myself to follow her actions and not her words. Her words definitely suggest she wants out of this marriage. Her actions suggest something different. I’m just curious for your opinion from the female perspective. We do have plans for Retrovaille...I hoping we can make it through the next six weeks.
Kind Regards,
LFH
A lot of it was subconscious. OM was on my case all the freaking time to get the papers done. My therapist was pointing out that not doing them was sending a certain message to OM and did I really want to send that message. Even H, when I asked him if this is really what he wanted, would dodge the question and say he thought it was 'for the best'.
But I didn't want to file those godforsaken papers. I didn't want to be divorced. I caved to the pressure from OM, from my therapist, from H - and I hate that I did that.
So ride it out, folks, even if your WAS *does* initiate a filing. Don't help them meet deadlines, don't be too hasty to get things all negotiated out. Leave it entirely on the WAS.
Later, I knew I was stalling and I stalled on purpose. But in the beginning, it was subconscious.
Sounds great and sometimes it was, but H gets really annoyed if people talk during date nights, so much of the time we watched the movie in complete silence.
This should read - 'H gets really annoyed if people talk during *movies*'.
Wow, Dia, that was an amazing response. I was expecting a line or two..........
I thank you sincerely for giving so much time to give the explanation. I can see many parallels in how we have handled things but I think that the main difference is you had a period of virtually nil contact which we haven't had.
We've also had lots of positive interactions including family time but that's what is construed as 'cake eating' and a no-no.
There's been lots of opportunity for H to say no to events and activities but he has come along and this gives me the impression that he has not closed the door. However, I try to control it by being impatient and asking him to step closer which he cannot handle. Invariably when I pressure him there's a blow up; his way of reducing the pressure and moving things back to square 1 a position he is really comfortable with.
I have analysed ow quite a bit in all this and can see she is a friend, a diversion perhaps but can't see her as the permanent long term partner...could be wrong of course.
Definitely lots of food for thought and I am so grateful for your frank and honest sharing of information.
You are a talented and entertaining writer, Dia. I have enjoyed reading your posts and will continue to have my daily updates, all the time sending you wishes for your ongoing patience and the speediest of reconciliations.
Cas
Here's another email to H, dated Jan 17, 09. We had just gotten off the phone from a really good chat. We laughed, we joked - it was like old times. Over the phone, I could hear one of our cats meowing, so he snapped a pic of her and sent it to me via email.
--------------------------------
1/17/09
A thought or two...
I'm single. It's a little strange, and I guess at the moment, it's only in my head. I haven't officially broken it off with OM, though that will probably come any day now. He hasn't been here for me to have the opportunity really, and I'm not going to send an email.
So being single, there this weird freedom. I can call you if I feel like it without worrying what OM or anyone will think. I'm my own person. I'm not sure what sort of arrangement you have with OW about it being exclusive or not, but that's yours to handle. If I feel like emailing you or calling you, I'm going to. If I feel like taking N to Disneyland some weekend and I feel like inviting you, I'm going to. Hell, if I have my own place and I feel like inviting you down for a weekend, I'm going to. And I'll leave you to manage whatever boundaries need to be managed on your side.
If the divorce gets kicked back for technical reasons, I will most likely not file it again. I will most likely decide that the universe just doesn't want us to get divorced and I will turn the papers over to you to file. If you file them, no harm, no foul. If you don't - well, we figure it out from there. No pressure, no expectations - but... I like you. I like talking to you, I like spending time with you. You 'get' me on a level I haven't found elsewhere and really like.
If I move out, I'm putting my wedding ring back on regardless of the legal situation. This isn't to make you feel any sort of guilt or obligation, it's just a statement of my own inner reality. I'm sooooo not interested in looking for anyone else.
Cheers,
Dia
Thank you, Cas. I lurk all the time in your sitch, but I'm frequently at a loss for anything to say other than "Hang in there" and that just seems so lame sometimes.
Know that I'm there in spirit even if I'm not there in text.
You really just wrote it as you felt it, Dia. It has a no pressure feel but I guess if you had been in DB mode in those early days people on here would have said, "No, no, don't go there, don't say you're not interested in anyone else"
Holy Moses Dia, I think that the guys we dated were related! I also have started to wear a ring again(I lost my wedding ring), but regardless of what happens in my M, I dont have it in me to devote myself to a new relationship, too much baggage, and Im simply not interested right now.
I have been thinking about writing a similar email to my H, I do think that its important for him to know that I accept responsibility for my part in things. Im not sure how it would go over, if it would be productive or not.
I think that I could use some hints from you over at my place... Ive got alot on my mind lately.
Hi Dia
I've not posted to you before but have just read your thread. Amazing you're doing brilliantly. I feel that I'm in a similar sitch I had an EA a few years ago. We struggled on for a couple of years after my H found out. Now he's left and is having an A with my best friend which he says started after he left - I don't believe that though.
I'd still hope for reconciliation but am currently considering D
What do you think turned it round for your H?
Hi, Bonny,
Here's the thing - It's not turned round yet for my H. We are not reconciled, and he is still 'with' OW.
I wish I had advice for you, but alas - I don't. My DBing, and the work I've done on myself certainly help, tho.
Hi, blue - I'll give your sitch a look here in a few. I woke up very wonky this morning - nightmare - and I'm still trying to shake it.
Continued rehabilitation of the guest room today. And it got down to the point where the friggen' Big Wheel and two boxes of OW daughter's toys were just in my way, literally as well as metaphorically. They're sitting in a neat pile by the front door.
They need to leave. Under the house, in H's trunk to be dropped off, launched off the back deck with a catapault - I don't care.
I will handle it casually. "SIL had mentioned getting them back to her, so maybe he could put them in his car or under the house. There just isn't room in the guest room if we want to keep decluttering..."
Yes there's a touch of anger, resentment, jealousy, etc - but mostly I feel empowered. My house, my husband, my mental space - and OW is slowly getting shoved into a smaller and smaller corner of it until she's gone.
I haven't forgotten you, blue! I'll swing by before the end of the day. I'm waiting until my head is 100% on straight before I risk giving insight or advice.
Quick, put it under the house yourself and don't mention it. He will probably not even ask where it went. Why encourage him to visit her?
Quick, put it under the house yourself and don't mention it. He will probably not even ask where it went. Why encourage him to visit her?
Hmm, good idea - let me think about that. She doesn't live here, so he wouldn't be visiting her - just dropping the stuff at her parents which is bound to be awkward for him. (Note: I *want* him to feel awkward. There are consequences for his behavior and he needs to feel them.) Rationale: I think he needs to be the one to remove her stuff from the house, not me. Kinda like it's the alcoholic who needs to pour out the bottles, not the alcoholic's wife.
BUT - I will think about what you said. Here's the risk - if *I* put them down there, more anger could fall on me for meddling vs. him doing it. I suppose I could ask...
Ok, F it. They're going under the house!
He liked when you cleaned the dining room. You're just extending the orderliness to the rest of the house, one room at a time. Can't wait til you redo the master bedroom!
Done!!
Whooo-Eeeee - that felt good!
He liked when you cleaned the dining room. You're just extending the orderliness to the rest of the house, one room at a time. Can't wait til you redo the master bedroom!
Or when I start doing his laundry - because then I'll be putting his folded things into the drawers. That's a-ways down the road yet, tho because, well, I'm doing enough housework as it is. He can be responsible for his own laundry for awhile.
Thanks for the push, Sara!
Psychology is such a funny thing. I've been working in that guest room all day. I'm hot, sticky, sweaty and dusty. I had been waiting til I finished to shower but now, having moved OW's stuff I feel so dirty I can't wait any longer!
Shower time!!
Coupla things...
Love and lacy underhtings
Since I know the topic of my underwear has caught H's attention, I have added them as a weapon in my arsenal. Several of my jeans are quite baggy due to weight loss, so when I wear them I make sure I have something lacy or naughty showing. In addition, the guest room I've been cleaning out has our laundry machines in it. I did my delicates today and I made sure some lacy camis and other frilly bits were hanging in front of the window.
The Anatomy of a Hug
There's been a change in H's hugs of late. I've gotten two recently where he comes up behind me and wraps one arm across my clavicle and shoulders and pulls me against him. There's a very different feel to it vs. your standard facing each other hug. It's a stronger grab, for one thing, and it has a very dominant, assertive male, sexual feel to it. Not sure if I've described it well, but boy do I like it when I get that kind.
The Power of Pronouns
H has been saying 'we' more lately, and in the context of the future. In the beginning, I was saying we but he was careful to say I. Today he noticed that I'd thrown away some old pillows. They were discolored and didn't smell good. He noted that "When you're done sorting and throwing away everything, if we lack for pillows we can always buy new ones."
The concept of 'us' as a unit seems to be filtering through to the aquifer of his subconscious. Now if we can just get it back to the top as a conscious choice, things will be good.
The concept of 'us' as a unit seems to be filtering through to the aquifer of his subconscious.
Man, I love a good geologic metaphor! Has Lodo seen that?
He's another poster who is a geographer and naturalist. If he stops by, we'll know it.
Coupla things...
Love and lacy underhtings
Since I know the topic of my underwear has caught H's attention, I have added them as a weapon in my arsenal. Several of my jeans are quite baggy due to weight loss, so when I wear them I make sure I have something lacy or naughty showing. In addition, the guest room I've been cleaning out has our laundry machines in it. I did my delicates today and I made sure some lacy camis and other frilly bits were hanging in front of the window.
Your not playing fair! I like it. What kind of reaction would you want, short of wild monkey relations, from your H as a result?
The reaction I'm hoping for goes something like this:
1) Oooh, I'd like to see her in that!
or,
2) She wears *that*?!? <sha-wiiinnnngg!>
Alas, though - I am angry and resentful tonight. He is cake-eating. Here I am doing *major* cleaning, cooking, minding kidlet, working full time, buying groceries and giving him money toward household expenses and he gets to have OW on top of that. And just to add the whip to the raspberry resentment trifle, cake-eating has been part of my plan all along. I want and need him to cake-eat for this to work. I just don't have to like it!!
So I had a me night tonight. I left the house and went to a movie. I saw Julie and Julia, finally. It was good. I ate popcorn. I came home and made a salad for just me. I did my own laundry and no one else's. For dessert, I made myself a banana boat. From the looks of it, H ate microwave popcorn for supper and kidlet nuked Hot Pockets. But tonight, at least, none of that is my problem
You are entitled to and deserve a me night Dia. You have worked wonders and have been putting in a great effort and for that you should be rewarded.
Dia, Im glad that you went and saw your movie, I remember you talking about wanting to see that one.
I dont think that its unusual, or necessarily unhealthy right now for you to having some ups and downs. So I am really happy that you took the initiative to do something nice for yourself instead of just wallowing in your anger and trying to fake a good mood for your H's benefit. And you are entitled to some resentment! Look at how hard you are working, you really would be a saint if you managed to not get at least a little salty about it!
Hey Dia, Yes H is cake-eating but he is still making steps towards you bit by bit. I think your journalling here helps us all see the progress you have made and in turn to keep you on course. Look forward now and disregard the cake-eating and focus on those wondeful steps out of the dark. I think it was when I lost sight of the steps forward that our sitch took a backward step. Anger and impatience are our worst enemies.
Hope your 'me' night helped.
So glad you opted for a ME night instead.. Yes he is cake eating but try and remember that when the house is all spick and span and you know where everything is, it will be you that will have the sense of satisfaction, and you will have plenty of time to do what you want, and also you will have shown kidlet that in the face of adversity sitting down and falling apart is not an option but to get up and fight for what you want, a lesson which is very important to learn early in life.
Another new hug last night. Since much of my day involved shifting heavy boxes and furniture, I was exhausted by the time kidlet went to bed. H was on his computer and the light from the office shines directly onto the couch where I sleep.
So I stumbled into the office and told H that I was tired, I was going to sleep in the big bed and when he came to be to wake me and I would move. He went to bed around midnight, but he slept on the couch to let me have a night in the big bed. Nice, but nothing doing. I sleep in that bed with him or not at all.
So I stumbled over to the couch and told H to go to bed. H politely argued saying that when one tries to do something nice for someone, the other person should accept graciously.
Dia: Yes - so go get in the other bed.
H: Oh, ok. Wait a minute - did I win or lose?
So he stood up and hugged me. Now maybe it was because it was dark, but his hands found me just under my arms, then glided down my sides and slid around my hips to pull me to him. If I had been more awake, I might have upped the ante a bit, but as it was, I just hugged him and went to bed.
Ok, the heavy lifting is done as far as the guest room is concerned. And it's a guest room again, not a junk room. It's not pristine and won't be until the larger M issue is settled one way or the other, but it's functional. There's still work to be done in there today, but I've made immense progress and the room is light, bright and cheery despite the remaining boxes.
H hugged me as part of thanking me during a break. We fumbled the hug a bit, each turning the wrong way.
H <superman voice>: Turn your boobies toward me, woman. I want to hug you.
Dia <soft and sultry>: Come with me to the back of the house and you can appreciate them in private.
And he *did* follow me down the hall, but bailed and went into the bathroom instead.
Ruminations for the day: I was pondering what would marriage be like with him now - real marriage, not this limboland stuff. It wouldn't be that different, I think. A lot like this but with sex and affection. With future planning, shared goals and all that. But the day to day wouldn't be that different.
On the house and garden - I've been thinking on this for awhile now. The changes H had made to the house, the garden, the curtains, etc. are all plans I had before I left. Additionally, he sleeps on my side of the bed curled up with the body pillow I used when I was expecting. He confessed once that doing that makes him feel less lonely. Perhaps it's only coincidence, but for someone who was allegedly trying to get me out of his head, out of his space and out of his life, he sure managed to keep himself surrounded with my presence. Viewed a certain way, the house and garden are almost a shrine to my dreams for it.
On the other side, of course, he took down every photo of me and every piece of my artwork save one. He said it hurt him to see them.
Also, his things have swelled to fill the master closet but the drawers on my side of the dresser have remained empty. One of them holds all the photos and things that he took down, but the other two are empty, empty empty. In excavating the guest room, I've found clothes for all of us stuffed in various bags and laundry baskets. These have been sorted, washed and alternately put away or marked for donation. I've found a lot of my own things that were left behind. I don't mind having the extra clothes as I've been living out of a suitcase since I got here, but it does pose a logistical problem. There's nowhere to put them.
The guest room has no closet and all of my things now are in about 18 inches of hanging space in the hall closet and on two small shelves in the same. So I put stuff in my old drawers in the master bedroom. He has no reason to open them, so he probably won't even know. I'd really like to have my half of the closet space back, but I'm afraid to ask for that just yet, and I think just doing it might be a bit much.
Not angry today. Sleep and hard work have beaten it out of me, at least temporarily.
I was pondering what would marriage be like with him now - real marriage, not this limboland stuff. It wouldn't be that different, I think. A lot like this but with sex and affection. With future planning, shared goals and all that. But the day to day wouldn't be that different.
That's funny Dia. B/c I could say the same thing about my sitch. Sort of a twist on the if you were a fly on the wall at my house, you would have no idea anything was amiss, until we retreat to seperate bedrooms.
Sounds like you've had a great weekend. And I can assure you, if my W had asked me to the back of the house, I would NOT have made a wrong turn.
I must be feeling *really* feisty because I took one of the photos of me and kidlet that H shoved face down in a drawer and put it back up on the bookshelf in the guest room.
Take it down again, H - I dare ya!!
ROFLMAO!!
The local wildlife has taken an interest in my underthings. Yesterday's frilly bits were all dry, so I folded them and put them away. Today's frilly bits were, shall we say, much less utilitarian than yesterday's. I found them in the boxes H shoved things into when he cleared out my drawers.
So hanging in the window today are a black lace teddy and a g-string teddy where the color is somewhere between fuschia and hot pink. And just outside the window, less than an inch away was a hummingbird all but thrumming against the glass trying to figure out if my fuschia teddy was edible.
Also, amongst the laundry detritus I found a woman's black t-shirt that I don't remember being mine. I'm not 100% certain, but I think it's OW's as it's too big for SIL. I put it in the donate pile and if H doesn't look through said donate pile before it goes, then it's not my problem. He's been given a Friday deadline for the donate pile as that's when my car leaves for the charity dropoff.
Anybody disagree with how to handle that shirt? (setting it on fire would be my preferred method)
Hmmm, a new development...
I went and told H the hummingbird story, omitting that it was a teddy and letting him think it was just some random piece of hot pink laundry. He laughed about the hummingbird thinking it had found the biggest flower in the world.
H (as hummingbird): I'll eat for days!
Then he talked about the coding project he's been working on all weekend and made mention of the double bind he faces when trying to balance human interaction with his interest in personal projects.
Dia: You're an introvert. It's cool; I get it.
Then he glowed at me. It's this look we give each other, that's intimate and full of love. It's not quite a smoldering sexual look, but one can lead to the other fairly quickly. I let him glow for a bit, looking back into his eyes with a smile.
Dia: Let's watch a movie tonight. (Sounds non-sequitur when I write it, but he implied a desire for company in the human interaction stuff above.)
H: Good, let's do it. I'm in the mood for Labyrinth. Is that good for you?
Dia: Sure, sounds great.
As I moved to get up, he accidentally bumped my foot with his.
H (dismayed): Oh! I poked you; I'm sorry.
Dia (playfully): Do it again! Do it again!
H: Grab the chair.
Believe me, the head snap on the double take for that one darn near gave me whiplash. Did he just tell me to grab the chair?!??!
I would say things are heating up a bit. Is that how you folks are reading it?
Interesting as I've backed way off this week on seeking his attention or affection. I've been focusing on working on the issues instead.
Hmmmm......
Hi Dia
I really am enjoying reading your thread, gives me hope that things can get better and always brings a smile to my face.
I would say things are certainly heating up for you and your H, keep doing whatever you are doing as it is obviously working very well.
I would say things are certainly heating up for you and your H, keep doing whatever you are doing as it is obviously working very well.
Yep.
Respect...
I know I lost it for H before I left, and I'm sure he lost it for me as well. He earned my respect back by never being a day late or a dollar short with the child support. I wonder if I'm earning his back by putting this house to rights from stem to stern? Seducing him won't gain his respect. But maybe working on the issues will?
Why is seduction off the table? Does he have to be faithful to the OW while he is married to you? Is there a parallel universe in which that makes sense?
It's not off the table as far as I'm concerned, Sara, but I was focusing on restoring the affectionate and sexual aspects of the relationship to the exclusion of working on the issues. The man is my husband, so I have no moral or ethical qualms about seducing him at all. For his part, he is trying to be 'loyal' to OW - at least as far as I've been told (back in January). However, those boundaries are his to manage, not mine. And no, I have no compunctions about moving in on another woman's turf when that 'turf' is mine to begin with.
My point is that any slut in Sicily can seduce a man. Being someone he can respect as a wife and life partner takes much, much more. And in particular with him, I think I gain as much or more ground by working on the issues as I do by luring him with sex.
Don't get me wrong - there is luring going on.
Perhaps he would be interested in doing a Retrouvaille weekend with you to improve the communication. (Not that there is a problem now, but there is so much baggage, and it's amazing how you can jettison baggage at a Retrouvaille weekend.) Usually the presence of a third party is a no-starter for Retrouvaille, but it sounds like that has lost its sizzle for him. He would just have to say there's no 3rd party involved when they call to confirm.
Also, as far as luring goes....would it be possible for kidlet to have a sleepover at a friend's house? And you could be home dusting and vacuuming in that really cute little french maid's costume from Victoria's Secret when he comes home from work...or, my favorite, a few steps from the show "Shimmy" wearing a belly dance scarf around your hips (and nothing else) while he watches. You don't need a long dance, about 30 seconds seems very effective.
The Retro weekend on our anniversary was booked, but I am looking for an opening to bring up the one on the 25th - it's the same one I mentioned to SP.
Do they call to confirm with both parties individually?
And btw, as many times as he has been in the guest room since I moved those toys, no, he has not noticed.
As for OW, I believe they have phone contact at least 2x/week, and who knows how often with email.
Yes, they call to talk to both parties. We happened to both be home, so they talked to us both in one phone call. But I have heard of spouses having to call them back because they weren't home when the call came in. This is just like real estate, location, location, location. You presence has to be driving her crazy. Hopefully, she is getting overbearing and demanding or whiny and crying. The longer you hold the prime real estate, the better it is for you.
Re: OW - Yes, this is my hope, too. That she will render herself supremely unattractive or that she will dump his arse. It's strange to think that not only can I have an effect on my H just by changing ME, but I can have an effect on someone who is thousands of miles away that I've never met, seen or spoken to.
I am sure Dia that it won't be too long before H dumps her or OW dumps him, but it will definitely happen and I think you are in a much stronger position than the OW.
Re: Real estate - yes, I am the one bringing him a glass of Chardonnay while Diana Krall croons her heart out.
Cry me a river, OW.
Oh yeah - here's another tidbit.
One morning this weekend, H wandered out while I was still mostly asleep. New kitty was sprawled over top of me, holding me down.
H: Awwwwwwww!
And he hopped in the shower.
By the time he was out, kidlet had woken up and crawled under the blanket to snuggle with me. When H came out of the bathroom, kidlet and I were snuggled together, both of us half-asleep, kidlet's arm thrown over me.
H: AWWWWWWWWW!
Guess it can't hurt for H to see tender family moments.
Possession is 9/10ths of the law.
Houston, we have achieved cuddling. Full story in the morning.
Then what's the benefit of me staying up late?
Antici-pation.
/rockyhorror
Evil. Pure evil.
On the other hand, WHOO HOO!
Not fair, want to know about it now.
Me too thought I was just getting to the good bit!
Wow Dia, just popping in, and what a development!
Seems like things are going swimmingly well.
So, were were supposed to watch Labyrinth last night, right? Well, H made supper while I took a shower - I was overly fragrant from cleaning all day. Once clean, I put on a flirty little black skirt and a pink eyelet top.
While we were eating, a hummingbird was going nutso chirping outside. H looked over at me and deadpanned, "He must have seen your teddy." I laughed!
Diana Krall was crooning, I was singing along doing my torch-song rendition of 'Besa Me Mucho' at him from across the LR. He was bemused.
Around 7, kidlet said he wanted to watch a movie and H brought up Labyrinth. Kidlet didn't want to watch it; he wanted to watch a Laurel and Hardy dvd. H turned it over to me - what did Mama want to watch. Well, I wanted Labyrinth and kidlet had been watching Laurel and Hardy all day, so I suggested that kidlet pick a third choice. Kidlet said no movie at all then.
Ever the peacemaker, I suggested that kidlet could watch what he wanted now, and H and I could watch Labyrinth after bedtime. H said no, he only had one movie in him so (I thought) it had to be now. I was disappointed but put my PMA face on.
Turns out what H meant was that he DID want to watch Labyrinth, and after bedtime (meaning alone with me), he just wanted to be free to work on his projects in the meantime. Once we got that figured out (woo hoo!), I entertained kidlet until bedtime and H went to his computer.
In the meantime, a client had emailed H upset about something or other that wasn't working right on a website H had made for him. H was supremely frustrated and scowled heartily as I walked in to let him know it was almost bedtime.
H finally did bedtime with kidlet, but then told me he had to finish fixing the problem for the client before we could watch the movie. I handled it lightly, "Oh, sure. I'll be here when you're ready."
He was back within 15 - 20 mins and he wanted to vent about the client. I listened. I did not try to fix his mood. I validated. "Wow, that *does* sound frustrating." Nod, wave, listen some more. "I can see why you feel that way. I'd be upset, too." He put the movie in and thanked me for being so understanding.
Then we sat down on opposite corners of the couch. A few scenes in, I adjusted posture to put my feet up on the arm of the couch, letting the flirty little skirt slip dangerously high on my thighs. He immediately stretched a leg out alongside me, touching me along the length of my side. (Hmmmm!) So I draped an arm over his leg. We stayed that way for nearly half an hour. The elbow I was leaning on was killing me, so I groped around for a pillow, intending to rest my head on his thigh. But just as I started, he paused the movie to go get a snack. Damn!!
2nd installment to come. (Gotta get kidlet to school)
He brought his snack back to the couch and had to sit upright to eat it, so we both retreated to our couch corners. I kept the pillow, hugging it in front of me as I watched the movie. He set his dish aside and shifted a little closer to me. I gave it a minute or three then stretched a bit, letting the pillow rest on my thighs. (Here, kitty, kitty. Nice pillow for you.)
And
He
Laid
his Head
on the Pillow!
And wrapped an arm around my hips! I let my arm rest lightly over his shoulder. We stayed that way for awhile half an hour maybe til H pushed himself up saying he was too comfortable and was falling asleep. He sat upright and stretched out his legs, giving me a chance to lay my head in his lap. It was right during the dance scene too, with Sarah in the lovely white dress and David Bowie singing
As the World Falls Down Le sigh!
So we snuggled until the end of the movie. I was in utter heaven. We hugged when we got up, long and tender, with fingers trailing down each other's arms to clasp hands as we parted. We separated to get jammies on and I met him in the hallway going to get my pillow which was on his bed. He grabbed me tight for another long, hard hug before he backed into his room and closed the door.
Me, I went to the couch and savored every minute of it.
I saw his eyes, though, and that was one scared little deer, so it wasn't the time to push to sleep in the Master bed with him. That will come, and likely not too far off either.
I am sure there will be a pullback, alas, but I'll deal.
H was a scared li'l bunny this morning, barely making eye contact and dashing off to work with a wide-eyed "See ya. Gotta run!" (no hug)
Of course, maybe it's just the stress and chaos of returning to work and getting out the door late, but it smelled like a pullback to me.
That's ok. Lots of nice stuff in my pick-i-nick basket. Plenty of soft grass, shady trees and a nice checkered blanket to sit on.
Pate', anyone? Try the grapes; they're lovely.
.... fish on ......
I love your attitude.
Dia!
You seem to be on the right path...
You knew there was going to be a pullback, so it didn't catch you off guard, of change your attitude. Keep things comfortable for him, the next time he may move a little closer. Your patience is going to be truly tested.
Thanks, Kett and Jeff. I am peachy, today - just peachy.
I googled the lyrics for As the World Falls Down, and they are appropos.
"As The World Falls Down"
There's such a sad love
Deep in your eyes.
A kind of pale jewel
Open and closed
Within your eyes.
I'll place the sky
Within your eyes.
There's such a fooled heart
Beatin' so fast
In search of new dreams.
A love that will last
Within your heart.
I'll place the moon
Within your heart.
As the pain sweeps through,
Makes no sense for you.
Every thrill is gone.
Wasn't too much fun at all,
But I'll be there for you-ou-ou
As the world falls down.
Falling.
Falling down.
Falling in love.
I'll paint you mornings of gold.
I'll spin you Valentine evenings.
Though we're strangers 'til now,
We're choosing the path
Between the stars.
I'll leave my love
Between the stars.
As the pain sweeps through,
Makes no sense for you.
Every thrill is gone.
Wasn't too much fun at all,
But I'll be there for you-ou-ou
As the world falls down.
Falling
As the world falls down.
Falling
As the world falls down.
Falling.
Falling.
Falling.
Falling in love
As the world falls down.
Falling.
Falling.
Falling.
Falling.
Falling in love
As the world falls down.
Makes no sense at all.
Makes no sense to fall.
Falling
As the world falls down.
Falling.
Falling in love
As the world falls down.
Falling.
Falling
Falling in love
As the world falls down.
I love the picnic analogy, I am so up for a picnic, although it would feel better if H's castle wasnt three counties away, he need blooming binoculars to see me lol! My only hope is that word gets back to him via my S(21). But I have got my blanket and a glass of wine and can sit here all the time.. I cant wear my wedding ring it upsets me too much so I wear my eternity ring on that finger, it reminds me that I have eternity on my side..
H's castle - or was it my castle..?
Um.. OUR castles were 200 miles apart at one point. Geographical distance is far easier to overcome, IMHO, than emotional distance.
Glass of wine, a nice chewy baguette, some brie - delightful day for a picnic.
And yes, I love the picnic analogy, esp. the part about the LBS handing the WAS the bricks to build the castle with.
"Falling" in love never sounded right to me. When I am in love, I dont fall, I fly. But I guess it's the language barrier...
Hi Dia!
Looking good
K
Hi, Kalni,
Welcome to my picnic.
re: the language barrier - remind me please. Is your native language Greek or Italian?
I wonder if English is the only language where 'falling' is part of the whole love verb-ery? As I think through the others I know, I can't find anything similar.
Hi Dia
Your picnic sounds absolutely fantastic. It's like reading a novel that you can't put down cause you have to find out what happens next.
Emailed H mid-day today. Light and short and 'just business'.
----------------------
Subj: Quick check in
Just making sure I have the plan straight...
You will be coming home at the regular time today - 5 - 6 pm, right? Is an easy supper ok - spaghetti, again? If you're planning to visit a store, I would make garlic bread, or maybe even bruschetta, if I had the right kind of bread to do it with and maybe a head of garlic. No need to make a special trip, though. Just if.
I will pick up kidlet at school today.
Cheers!
Dia
----------------------
He called about an hour and a half later. His voice was bright and cheery - he'd forgotten I was to pick up kidlet today. Spaghetti was fine, but no, he wasn't planning on stopping at the store. Was that ok?
Sure it was. We'll just go with what we have.
Then this note of hesitancy crept into his voice. He was planning to game with his buddies tonight. Was that ok?
Translation (and yes, I'm mind reading): Does this whole cuddle business mean I suddenly forfeit my autonomy to a whining shrew who assumes that Doing H Stuff means I don't love her?
Dia (happy and breezy): Sounds great! See you tonight.
DB three-pointer, nuthin' but net!
Hi Dia
They just don't stop testing do they.
Hi Dia
They just don't stop testing do they.
No, they don't - but to be fair, neither do we. In fact, the test last week was that after his buddies logged off, he continued to poke around in the game environment til nearly midnight. All the other weeks, he's logged off when they did and then come to me to chat. I think he wanted to see if I'd pout.
I didn't. I read, then went to sleep when I was tired.
Can it get more drama-free than that?
And Hiya, MF!!
About goals....
I need some new goals.
My previous ones were:
1) Demonstrates in word or deed that he is happy to see me.
2) Initiates conversation with me via phone, email and/or in person.
3) Invites me to do something with him, even if just a movie at home.
4) Initiates affectionate touches - e.g. hugs.
All of these have been met in spades. What can you folks think of for new ones? I'm having trouble with magnitude. I'm thinking of:
1) Extended cuddle in the hammock (elsewhere is ok).
2) Initiates a kiss, even if on the cheek.
3) Invites or allows me to sleep in the Master bed.
4) Asks me on a 'date' - no kidlet.
I'm wondering if those are too big of a jump? If so, what are some good in-between ones?
First off, I mis-spoke in the post above. DR does not call these goals as one cannot set goals for another person. They are 'signs' that things are getting better. At any rate...
1) Extended cuddle - CHECK
4) Date - I initiated it, but because it was our anniversary I think it counts. - CHECK
So that leaves me with the following (renumbered):
1) Initiates a kiss, even if on the cheek.
2) Invites or allows me to sleep in the Master bed with him.
and I'll add two more..
3) Offers me space in the Master closet.
4) Says "I love you" to me.
I don't think there are any problems with your new set of goals there aren't any in between ones that I could think of, to me they follow on very nicely from your existing goals.
I have been a bit slack and haven't had time to write down my goals, something that I should do today if I have some time at work maybe at lunch.
H came home looking tired, restless and conflicted. He greeted me nicely and hugged me, though a more lukewarm hug than usual (this is ok).
We chatted a teensy bit about our days and then H flopped on the couch looking pensive.
H: Dia, am I different from two years ago?
Dia: (Crap! Where is this going??) Yes you are, but what do you mean?
H: Do I perseverate more?
Dia: (WTF??!?) Hmmm, well, let me tell you the differences I see, and then I'll address that one. You do more housework. You're a much more active and engaged parent. You have friends, projects and outside interests. As for perseverating, it's hard to tell. You've lived alone for a long time, so you've had the luxury of being able to focus your attention on whatever you want, for however long you want. So I can't really tell if you do it *more*, or if I just get in your way less.
H: <listening>
Dia: I don't think you perseverate beyond the norm, though. I don't see anything out of line with it.
H: Well, that's good. It's what I *want* to do. (being able to focus on his projects)
So here's where I screwed up...
Dia: Has it been hard for you to have kidlet full time and then me back in the house, too?
I only wanted to draw out the conversation and show empathy, but *that* road is not one I should have have traveled.
H <somewhat guardedly>: It's felt crowded, but there have been good things, too.
So then I started supper and H went to play his game. He seemed more relaxed, and thanked me sincerely when I brought him a beverage and supper to his desk.
Wow - I expected withdrawal out of him, not introspection and questioning. Also of note, there's more me, me, me on his mind (meaning him, him, him), which feels kind of WAS-y. On the other hand, differentiation is all about trying to figure out how to be *me* AND be in a relationship, too, so I guess the me-introspection is likely productive?
Reactions? Interpretations?
Edit: And I wonder if he stayed awake thinking last night or slept poorly. He had that 'I can't keep my eyes open' look to him.
Oh heavens, this is way out of my league. What does perseverate mean - sorry to sound silly.
".........but there have been good things, too."
Give yourself a pass woman. Just don't make a habit of it.
perseverate - to focus intently, even obsessively, on something - usually to the exclusion of all else. Comes from the word 'persevere'.
Not silly, it's an unusual word and I'm surprised he used it. You only typically hear it in one of two contexts: about autistics or in a clinical/counseling setting related to something like OCD.
To be clear, I think he does perseverate, just not abnormally so.
Doesn't it include the sense of borderline obsession or a sense of incompleteness, almost akin to OCD? Not being able to or feeling safe to let things go mentally, even if (the logical) part of you wants to? (oh, you said some of that)
My h. has some symptoms of being mildly on the spectrum, so it's a concept we've dealt with, along with what he refers to as "hyperfocus" (not a good thing if it persists too long).
It is an unusual word. The fact that he used it might seem to indicate that he's wondering if he should be worried about it or not.
Don't soft-pedal your true observations. Now we're getting into some me-projecting, so be forewarned: Was he mentally and/or emotionally overleveraged before in your marriage, to the detriment of you and/or kidlet? Or temporally ditto? If it was a problem, and you both know it was a problem ... give him an honest answer to his feelers.
You've been giving him a lot of positive responses in the shape of not flipping out about gaming time, etc. He may be trying to suss out how far he can or should indulge in his personal pursuits going forward.
I don't think it serves you well, long term, to give an overly-accomodating response in pursuit of being the good little 180 soldier, tempting as it probably is.
Hey Dia!
Don't try to over analyze it. I think the big thing is that he thought to ask you, he wanted your opinion. That strikes me as significant.
You probably should have not said what you did, but I don't think you really hurt anything.
He knows the word because of some research we both did on Aspergers. See, kidlet has had trouble fitting in at school and has twice been the victim of severe bullying, the kind that draws blood and causes suicidal ideation. He's also got a very adult vocabulary and a high school reading level, so we were told to investigate Asperger Syndrome.
To make a long story short, I don't think kidlet is on the spectrum. I think the social probs are more due to the fact that his Wechsler came back with a notation that he couldn't be adequately assessed due to low ceilings.
H and I both had similar peer-group issues as kids. Being female, I didn't face getting beaten up (just wicked teasing), and H decked the aggressor the first time someone tried and never had to deal with it again.
In today's school climate, though, decking the aggressor is not an option, and while H was a very solidly built kid, kidlet is more lanky/willowy and looks like more of a target.
But back to perseverating. Yes, he does it. It's fairly common among programmers and engineers, no? But I don't think he does to an abnormal degree. Perhaps I'm mincing words and being over-kind, though, so I'll think on it some.
Oh, and re: over-leveraged:
One of our perennial issues is me being able to get enough time and attention from him, esp. in competition with the time he spends on the computer. At present, the balance is working. I suspect it's the sort of thing that will require continual, periodic monitoring and adjustment with us.
Of greater concern to me is that when someone or something tries to pull him out of a project he's perseverating on, he's snappish and scowling about it. Tolerable when it's me b/c I know it's not about me. Less tolerable when it's kidlet.
Example not related to computer: the 'no talking during movies' rule because it breaks his concentration.
My antennae say that OW accused him of ignoring her and being obsessed with his personal life. I think there is trouble in OW Paradise.
That's a interesting question your husband asked. He risked being vulnerable. What we want from our women is to be respected (accepted) the way we are. That's why a dog is man's best friend. Let him know you see that trait as a strength and that you would let him know when it might be a detriment to him. Let him know you are proud of him. We all want to be appreciated and that we matter. You can handle it.
Cheers
Heh - I did wonder if there had been a fight with OW over the weekend. There were some occasions where he felt sort of off-kilter, plus I am virtually certain they had a phone call the night of our anniv. dinner. (her name was on his i-phone screen for a brief moment before he handed it to me)
I can just imagine how that played...
H: Sorry OW. Can't talk now. Wife and I are going out to dinner.
Very common among engineers and programmers; almost definitive (wink).
For us it's been a balancing act. I've come to recognize "work mode" and not expect much unless the house is literally on fire during that phase and not get my panties in a bunch when I'm ignored. He's become much more self-aware of how much is too much and the negative effects on both our relationship and his mental/emotional balance. And recognizing the point of diminishing returns with regard to the perseverating.
Sounds like you're pretty aware of the necessary monitoring and possible pitfalls.
That's a interesting question your husband asked. He risked being vulnerable. What we want from our women is to be respected (accepted) the way we are. That's why a dog is man's best friend. Let him know you see that trait as a strength and that you would let him know when it might be a detriment to him. Let him know you are proud of him. We all want to be appreciated and that we matter. You can handle it.
Cheers
Interesting take, Coach. My answer was probably sufficient then, though not wonderful.
Maybe....
But.... don't use too much energy trying to analyze it!
You are doing the things you need to be doing, no matter what the case. Don't let his actions throw you right now. I think he's in that confused place... he has to find his way out on his own, all you can do is make it safe for him.
Well, here's a story from my own childhood.
My mother was working in the basement one winter afternoon and asked me to put the kettle on for hot chocolate, which I did. I think I was 12, maybe. Then I went into the LR to read.
The kettle boiled, whistled until it boiled dry, then commenced melting itself onto the electric coil of the burner. I never heard a thing. What finally tore my attention away from the book was the 'something's burning' smell.
Maybe....
But.... don't use too much energy trying to analyze it!
You are doing the things you need to be doing, no matter what the case. Don't let his actions throw you right now. I think he's in that confused place... he has to find his way out on his own, all you can do is make it safe for him.
Thanks, Jeff! And safe is really what I'm working on for him.
He feels safe in an ordered house. He feels safe in an environment of praise and acceptance. He feels safe when there is little or no pressure on the R.
As for angst over his R with OW - well, knowing him as I do, he crossed a line with me last night. Yes, he can rationalize it by minimizing - "We just watched a movie on the couch." But for someone who is allegedly being exclusive with/loyal to OW, he crossed the line and he knows it. So I'm guessing (mind reading) that some of his anxiety, conflictedness and sleeplessness might be due to guilt over 'cheating' on OW. And his use of perseverating might even be related to what we might call an obsessively stubborn position regarding fidelity to a married (but divorcing) woman who lives 3000 miles away and he only sees 4-5x/year?
Understandable if so, but - Not my problem!!
Still in pullback mode. Nuthin' to see here, folks.
Tomorrow is his movie night with friends. I may go see a movie myself. Two movies in 7 days, you say? How long can this wild and crazy lifestyle go on?? <grin>
H has been incredibly morose over the past 48 hours. Flat affect, low eye gaze, hunched shoulders, depressed voice, sleeplessness, listlessness - the whole 9 yards.
Yesterday, when Sara mentioned the possibility of a spat with OW, I thought it possible but fairly wild on the speculation scale. Seeing him today, I am seriously wondering if OW dumped him and he's moping about it, or perhaps vice-versa and he's drowning in guilt for hurting her.
I have no proof, of course, but here's the question.
I have immense compassion for his grief. I know how it feels to be left or to feel bereft of one's partner. Regardless of my hurt and anger over OW, I am sensitive to how he is feeling/will feel in the event of a split with OW. So how does one act under those circumstances?
It's not like I can say "there, there" and pat him on the shoulder, nor would it be appropriate to say, "Good, now that *that's* over, get your a$$ back in this marriage."
I'm thinking that it calls for a combination of respectful distance (so he can process the feelings w/o pressure), supportive gestures (a nice hot meal, but no comment as to why) and more-of-the-same in the general PMA department?
I do understand that he needs to grieve, and I'm not at all angry that he's busted up over it. It's a very natural, normal reaction. I'm just flailing a bit at how to act around him while he's being Mopey Martin. And - perish the thought - do I need to worry about being a rebound??
Has anyone gone through this - nursing their spouse through the breakup with OP?
Dia:
I found this link a while ago and it has a lot of info on infidelity, including the unfaithful spouses withdrawal when the affair ends. Look around, you might find something useful.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html
Yeah, I guess I have. My advice is to back off, but still be the sexy you that you are. Pretend you are dating and don't see him during the week. If you only saw him on Saturday night, you wouldn't even know this exists.
When he comes home from work, you look good, you're cooking dinner in a sexy, little outfit, his favorite beer is in the fridge, and you set out a little hors d'oeuvres, nothing too much, maybe just chips and salsa, or hummus and pita, but something. This encourages him to sit in the kitchen and talk to you while you cook. Maybe you have a glass of wine or beer while you fix dinner. Keep the conversation happy, about kidlet, ways to further organize the house, your work, whatever. He may be losing her, but he won't even notice because life at home is good. You distract him from sad thoughts by being the happy, pretty one flitting by around him.
Agree with Sara.
Caveat: whooooooooooooooooole lotta assumptions being made here. Not saying you're wrong, but you don't know.
Thanks, folks, and agreed - I do NOT know this for sure. Oddly enough, I don't even feel hopeful about it, very likely due to the not knowing part. I'm not sure what I feel.
Ok, here's what I feel - numb and guarded. Unconsciously, I think I'm preparing myself for anger and blame on his part. The breakup is MY fault. If I hadn't come back here and INSISTED on moving in, this wouldn't have happened. In fact, if I hadn't LEFT HIM 2 years ago, NONE OF THIS would have happened.
Yes, this is borrowing trouble.
I will make all efforts to cease and desist.
Pigskin - I checked out that link and read some of it. I will read more later. It looks great; thanks!
H is home from a 2-hour work detail in the garden at kidlet's school. He seems much more himself, though still distant.
I'm fine and continuing my picnic.
So I went in to ask H a really simple question - Ribs or chicken for supper? - and I got the "You Have Interrupted Me!" scowl. Not a big deal, that scowl isn't about me. But he's got the Pandora music thing going and he has this channel that plays a lot of 70's music. Disco stuff. Rubberband Man. And playing right when I walked in was this song:
"Fly OW, Fly... up, up to the sky"
Then I checked on kidlet who came home sick today and he was looking at superhero cards, you know, Batman and OW?
It's a dark humor, yes, but I do find it funny.
I am waiting for a bona fide Little OW Redbreast to come and perch on the windowsill where I am working.
Yeah, that's what he said.
And I have this great marinade from my grandfather, simple, really, olive oil, soy sauce and brown sugar.
Dia,
If he's in his office working, and not on a plane to fly out there and soothe her ruffled feathers, then he's dealing with it. So bake him his favorite dessert, and put on some of that frilly underwear, and hum a little tune to yourself while you cook.
Dia, Sara has a point he is at home with YOU! He might be a bear with a sore head but hes choosing to do it with you.. Get that hot pink number out and give him a flash, but no more! Remember he has to come to you. Keep going girl, keep your picnic laid out and looking good.
Yup, yup, yup. I will make a grocery run on my lunch hour - no dessert fixin's in the cupboard.
Keep in mind that I am NOT certain there has been a dust-up with OW at all. I could be wildly off. But either way, dessert won't hurt.
Sounds like he's rattled could be something completely else.
Nows the time to 'act as if' there's nothing wrong. Don't rise to his bad mood, it's out of your control
Yup, I'm cheery as ever, but backed off a little so as not to annoy. Ribs for dinner, brownies for dessert. I offered peach cobbler as a choice but he picked brownies. Actually he picked "BOTH!!" - but I made him tell me which one first.
Brownies are in the oven and almost ready to come out. As I was unloading groceries, a thought struck me...
I bought strawberries and peaches. (Instead of whatever was on sale.)
I bought Kerry Gold real butter instead of the store brand. (wanted Plugra but it's hard to find here.)
I bought Yukon Gold new potatoes. (instead of the much cheaper russets)
I bought crusty, artisan loaf of roasted garlic sourdough bread to dip in olive oil and balsamic vinegar. (instead of nothing)
None of that would have been possible for me - or H - while we were separated. We didn't have the money. Both of us had developed 'rules' about what we could buy.
Produce - had to be less than a buck a pound.
Meat - had to be less than $1.50 or $2 a pound.
Generic Mac n Cheese. Very few luxuries, if any. But as long as we're together, we can afford nicer stuff.
I'm still a bargain shopper, but darn it - russets don't roast or boil well. You need Yukons for that. And apples, apples only ever apples gets boring after awhile. Strawberries and peaches? Pure heaven!
It all sounds delicious. The way to a man's heart is still through his stomach.
Hi Dia
I agree with everyone here, I do think the OW may no longer be in the picture, so now you can really really shine my girl. You are doing brilliantly.
I wonder if I should also start to take a bit more interest in what I am preparing for dinner of a night, perhaps I too should reintroduce the desserts H loves if as Sara says the way to aman's heart is still through his stomach.
Hi, Oz,
I can tell you one thing for sure - that pan of brownies may not last the night, so I'll be making the cobbler tomorrow.
Hmmmmm, maybe tonight being the night before he goes away, I'll do a pre dinner platter, have a good meal ready and one his most favourite desserts waiting. And a sexy little number on as well.
Something for him to think about as he packs for his weekend away.
Is there any ground rule for how long a pullback typically lasts? Just curious.
I'm away for the weekend - have to head south to check in on my grandfather while my parents are out of town. My hunch is that this will ease a lot of the pull back if it hasn't eased before then.
Also, I am considering writing a letter to OW1 - not a vengeful, hateful letter but a serious, reflective letter. Any thoughts on that?
Hi Dia
My H's first pullback lasted one week, the second one two weeks and this one well who knows. There probably is no ground rule would depend how far they pullback.
Why would you write a letter to OW1? out of curiosity.
Sure, go ahead and write a letter to OW1, and then burn it.
Sure, go ahead and write a letter to OW1, and then burn it.
ROFL!!!
What are you looking for this woman to say? "Oh, yeah, I'm sorry I stole your husband all those years ago. I didn't really need him. Glad you got him back."
Hi Dia,
I'm off to get dinner organised now....nothing like yours though. Your meals have been sounding delicious! Thought I might pop in for a visit(at dinner time)!
Like the idea of giving him a little space but keeping 'the home fires burning'
Cas
Expect being away for the weekend he wont feel so pressured, and also it will give him time to miss you! Agree with Cas your cooking sounds delicious, I seriously miss cooking a meal, although I make sure I cook for myself I do miss cooking for more, will have to get some friends round for dinner next weekend!
Dia,
Sorry this is late but I just read your post about "falling in love" and other languages. In French, one says, "tomber amoureux" which means "to fall loving" so the verb "to fall" is used in reference to love in a language other than English.
I have been following along on your thread and think you are a bright, capable and very strong woman. You have a great sense of humor...never lose that, no matter what.
Veronica.
Thank you, Veronica! I read French, but I've never encountered 'to fall in love' - cool! (yes, language geek, here)
@Sara - <dripping absurdity> Why yes, I think that's exactly what she'll say, and then she'll write my H a heartfelt email begging him to reconcile with me. <massive eyeroll at self> Ok, *that* idea's off the table.
@Jeff - OMG yes, this is trying my patience mightily. It's only been a couple of days but he took away all my hugs and all my QT which was keeping my love tank full and giving me the strength to carry on. When we had that cuddle, I allowed myself to think that everything would be ok and we were going to make it. First time I've ever thought that. I shoved the thought away real quick because it's probably poison, but there you go. Now, of course, I've had those insidious, niggling whispers along the lines of "This will never work! He's going to throw me out at any moment now." And I've got to shove those away, too.
BUT!
He has been peeking from the tower window. The laughing banter has been restored. Not innuendo yet, but the joking back and forth and the witty repartee. No hugs yet either, but I'm hanging in there.
And there there was this one little interaction:
I was working in the new office I set up for myself in the guest room and he called my name from across the house. So I went to his office,
Dia: Did you need me?
H: Perpetually.
So I will make the peach-blackberry cobbler Friday night and leave for down south early Saturday morn. Leave him with something sweet on the tongue while I'm gone.
Convo this morning:
H to kidlet: It's movie night tonight with T and O. Do you want to come?
Dia <interjecting>: Actually, I need you to take him tonight. I'm going out.
H: Oh? Cool! Movie again?
Dia: I haven't decided yet. I'm sure I can find some trouble to get into.
H: Ok.
Patience is a virtue. And when I finally meet her, I'ma smack dat Bi%$h!
Edit to add: When he left for work just now, he walked all the way to the back of the house to find me and hug me.
The "perpetually" remark was *very* pleasing.
Not that I'm knocking the hug, you unnerstand.....
Shall we dance? sigh......
Man, Dia. You might think you had some kind of playbook to go by. Way to go.
I do.
It's called "This Board."
Plus a healthy dose of seat-of-my-pants flying.
@ Sara - just making sure... I was mocking *myself* in the post above, not you.
Limerick - critique please!
I am planning to write this on a little card and leave it next to the cobbler. Limericks, of course, are the lowest form of poetry, but therefore the least intimidating.
In light of my visit down south,
I made something sweet for your mouth.
Something to savor,
All peachy in flavor,
Until I get back to the house.It's the last line I'm not quite pleased with, though I like the implication that *I* am the proper sweet, peachy thing for his mouth and the cobbler is merely a substitute.
I am leaving in such a haste
I made something sweet for you to taste
Something to savor
All peachy in flavor
Nary a crumb shall we waste.
Dia, How about "peachy in flavor" the end and just cut the last line?
Ok, found my GAL for tonight. There's an Irish music jam session at a cafe. That's a go!
Dia Im just ROFL at the cobbler limerick, you hun have a fantastic sense of humour! I dont know about GAL more like having/making a life and shouting "catch up with me if you can" You go girl you deserve every minute of fun!
Ok, So I'm going to an Irish music jam, tonight. Please help me perfect the game plan.
H gets home between 5:15 and 6, depending on traffic. He usually stops in for 10 mins or so, then leaves for his dinner/movie night at T & O's place. With kidlet in tow, he will come home around 9pm-ish, as that's kidlet's bedtime.
1) Doll up to the nines. Hair, makeup, perfume, flirty little skirt - the works. Be this way when H gets home.
2) No dinner ready. Cold house, cold kitchen.
3) Breeze out w/o telling him where I'm going or when I'll be back. (?)
4) Hug and kiss kidlet, but not H unless he initiates. (?)
5) Come home... when?
6) Try the 'talking animatedly on the cellphone' trick - yes or no?
Is trying to provoke jealousy *really* a good idea given the details of our sitch?
Any other details, ideas, suggestions, 2x4s, etc.? If he asks, do I tell him where I was? Or do I say something like, "Oh, I poked around at some clubs until I found music I liked."
I think invoking a certain level of mystery is good; by all means go out looking fabu.
I think little jealousy-tease tricks like the phone thing are puerile and unecessary. And, given the hx of affairs on both sides, somewhat disrespectful.
Does he go out without telling you in a general way where he's going and when he's going to be back?
I don't see any reason not to excitedly discuss your plans ... knowing you're going out dressed to kill with the intention of drinking beer with irishmen should do your work for you, really.....
JMHO; YMMV
1-4, sounds right.
5. When it's time for you. 9:30-10?
6. I don't like tricks. I'd say no.
I don't think trying to "provoke" jealousy is ever a good idea. You are trying to GAL for yourself. In doing so you may raise his curiosity. I'd say if he asks, you can tell him. It's an interesting activity on it's own. The truth rarely hurts a person that is in the right.
Cool, and I agree w/you re: the cell thing.
And so far, he *does* tell me where he's going and when he'll be back. Assuming he's told the truth, of course. (No evidence that he hasn't.)
Left to my own devices, I'd come home by 10 at the latest. With a caveat for having a really fabulous time and maybe staying out as late as midnight.
Wow.... cross post city!
Just to add....
I think too many people see GAL as a tool for manipulation. That's all backwards. In my opinion, manipulation puts us down to the same level as "them". GAL is for you.
Thanks, Jeff. I'd been wondering about that because you're right. The 'make them jealous' tricks DO contradict 'GAL is for YOU'.
(Kinda like "Trust, but verify" contradicts 'No snooping' but that's a different post.)
Not implying that the tricks don't *work*, mind you, but I agree that they're prob not a good idea in my sitch.
My opinion is that generally "tricks" might seem to give short term gains, but dishonesty, in the long run, isn't a great foundation to be building on.
You can be mysterious without making stuff up. You can leave things unsaid that you might otherwise say. But imagainary friends and such, well, I just don't think so.
I'm sure some people have wonderful imaginary friends, who have been quite helpful. But it's not the way I would go.
In the end you don't "make them jealous", they make themselves jealous!
As far as snooping goes, there are various "schools of thought". No snooping is the safer path, at least until you are sure you are ready to know, and you have a plan for exactly how you will react to what you find. Letting your emotions drive in that case is a recipe for disaster.
I'm sure some on the board will disagree, but I don't believe in evoking jealousy, period.
When you come right down to it ... do you want your spouse to want you because they REALLY want you .... or want you because they don't want anyone ELSE to "have" you?
I know my answer, and I'm worth more than the latter.
Caveat: I can see it as a very temporary useful tool in some extreme situations when used as a mega-reality-check for a WAS ... "Wow, someone else DOES want them; I can't screw around here forever and have them be waiting .......maybe I AM losing something good here .....". Although even so, I'm not sure ....
And lets face it Dia - things are progressing along a positive path without games. You just being wonderful you has his interest and curiosity. A little mystery is good, but games not so much.
...things are progressing along a positive path without games.
Thank you, Wifey!
I just wish I felt more certain of that part right now.
Anxiety is biting me today.
I don't want to be divorced. I want my husband back. I want OW out of the &^%$@#* picture. I want to make love to him again. I can't afford a place of my own on what I make. He really can't afford child support. Kidlet needs us together not just geographically, but as an intact, loving, committed family. I'm feeling *very* insecure about getting thrown out (this may be holdover from OM). etc. etc. etc.
And I can't let H get even a whiff of all that.
Oh, and I just found out that I can't file a dismissal on my own. We both have to sign it, and apparently CA doesn't have rules about dismissing for failure to progress. So my D paperwork is somewhere in the desert after being rejected back in late Jan., and I'm terrified that a judge will just finalize the whole thing and I'll be divorced against my will.
<looks back at that>
Oy! Gee, looks like I need to get a life, huh??
Hey Dia.
Just dropping in to say even though I haven't posted on your thread in a while, I have been reading, and it sounds like you are doing great.
I think I will soon be asking you for tips on getting my W to climb over the "wall" she has erected.
Thanks, GIMA. The verbal vomit in my prev. post aside, I'm having difficulty seeing the 'doing great' part today - though all of you are probably right and I'm doing fine.
And I'm *really* looking forward to the Irish music tonight. Excited, even.
Things over in your sitch look quite good, too.
Hi Dia
As I have said before you are an inspiration in your handling of your situation and where you are now. I ready my thread all over again today and when you do that you realise just how far you have come, I think we sometimes just forget that part.
The Irish music sounds great. I hope you had a great time.
Let's know.
Minor work meltdown.
I have workflows coming in from three different people, each with their own idea of what 'top priority' is and how quickly they need X,Y or Z. And they tend not to know what the other parties have given me. In fact, just yesterday, I saved the company about 4 grand because I discovered that T had me pursuing a hotel contract while M and D had already given instructions to our clients to make their own reservations.
At any rate, with the CEO's backing (small company), I just sent a polite email to all three (the CEO is one) listing my entire workload and suggesting that they confer jointly and get back to me with ONE set of priorities.
And - back to my sitch - Thank you, everyone! I need to remember just how good I have it compared to many out there.
Doing what Oz suggests...
My post from 7/20/09
hope and expectations?
Example: Our 15th wedding anniversary is coming up in about 6 weeks. I would really love to be with H then in some capacity or other. Whether it's a movie on the couch, a date, a walk on the beach with the kidlet, a casual lunch - or even pleasepleaseplease, a super romantic dinner date for just the two of us.
(And yeah, I know that last one is pure fantasy-land, so like, while I'm at it, can I have a pony, too? I'd probably be moved to tears if I could even just hold his hand.)
Reminder to self: I
GOT that. And ice cream, too.
DIA - Chin up! You're an inspiration!!!
This is minor pullback stuff. Space and time to process.
Go get 'em tonight!!!
I am all dolled up and decked out.
Black flirty skirt just above the knee
Black opaque tights
Kitten-heel black Mary Janes (not patent leather)
Silver ankle bells
Short sleeve top, V-neck with ring, black with multi-color polka dots
My hair is getting long on my shoulders - though I'm not doing it for him, he likes it that way. My usual style is tousled layers, kinda Meg Ryan-ish from a few years ago. But with the most recent cut, it's doing more this 1930's glamour wave thing. A little sleeker, a little stronger, more worldly, and a little more Va-va-voom than my old style.
The blouse is a touch business-y. I wish I had something more 'out on the town' but living out of a suitcase limits my choices.
Y'all behave now!
Dia out!
Girly Girl in the house!!!
Ya look great, Dia! LOL
We must have twin hair!
The night was an adventure. We'll start with the homecoming. I had simple hors d'ouvres waiting on the bar - the crusty roasted garlic bread with balsamic and olive oil for dipping. I was only set up for one, but I offered some to H as soon as he walked in the door.
H: Well look at you! All ready for a night on the town, Miss Ankle Bells?
Dia: <pirouettes>
I chattered animatedly about where I was going, Irish music night, etc. We discussed that he'd been there once; he thought it was a bar. No, sez I, it's an artsy coffee house like the The Green Dragon used to be! They do serve beer and wine, though. In fact, they have this drink that's a stout with a shot of espresso - and I just might try it.
His eyes kept roving up and down, checking me out w/o saying anything. He told me to have a great time, and he'd want to hear all about it when I got back. I said I'd be back probably between 9 and 10, but did he want a call if I'd be out later than that? Yes, he wanted a call if I'd be out past midnight.
H <teasing>: And I'll expect text messages with pictures every 5 minutes to make sure you're doing something respectable.
Dia <archly>: Oh, I'm supposed to be doing something respectable, am I?
H <smug>: Yes.
I hugged kidlet and left before they did. H was seated on the couch and didn't appear to be hug-imminent, so I left w/o giving him one.
The rest of the adventure to follow...
So walking up to the place, I heard the beat of a drum. Ahh, thunk I, the bodhran! Imagine my surprise when, upon entering, there wasn't a bodhran in sight. In fact, the place was empty except for an Asian saxophonist and a drum set with chimes and a cowbell. The Asian saxophonist looked a bit out of place for Irish music night, but I am nothing if not ecumenical so I didn't think much of it.
"Oh my. I must be early," quoth Dia as she crossed the threshold. Mind you, I'd read that Irish music night started at 6, and here it was 6:45, but knowing sessiuns as I do, there's no way they'd done and gone in 45 mins.
So I ordered myself one o'them espresso stouts and took my pick of seats right next to the house cat who was sleeping on an empty chair. There was a bookshelf, so I grabbed a copy of Pride and Prejudice and settled in to wait.
Then I heard the brass section warming up in the back, bringing back many fond memories of listening to orchestra tunings during my theatre days.
Wait a minnit. Brass section? On Irish music night??
Then the sax player came over to ask me if I 'was here to see Vinny.' Uh oh. I've stumbled into a Sopranos rerun! Vinny turned out to be Vinny Golia and the sax player was from the oddly named band, Crepuscle Trio. And no, no Danny Boy, no Whiskey in the Jar and definitely no Song for Ireland.
The flavor of the evening was experimental jazz. Experimental jazz is a music of 'isn't'. There isn't a melody. There isn't a beat or a rhythm. And it definitely isn't comfortable. It's about dissonance, cacophany and a-rhythmia. It' about exploring sound outside the bounds of tradition.
The cat was brazen in her displeasure, making flat-eared, slalom dashes through the forest of ankles and music stands. And me, I turned a few heads, which felt good. And I even got hit on - by a slender, elegant, silver-haired woman in her 60s! And while I don't particularly object to any of those descriptors, I am married. So while the lady was cordially invited to share my table, that's all we shared.
The whole thing took me completely out of myself - an unexpected adventure. Just the shake-up I needed.
Now for the homecoming.
Since the music started at 8, not 6, Vinny and ensemble were just getting started at 9, and still mid-set at 10. I left at 10 anyway for a variety of reasons but mostly because I wanted to. I was home before 10:15.
H was on his computer with headphones on, freshly showered but looking wan and exhausted. He asked me how it went but wasn't interested in listening past "Great!" I took my cue and disappeared into the bathroom to change into jammies. On my way back out, H again stated that he'd 'hear about it later. His brain was full right now and he didn't want to talk." He seemed whiny/grumpy and like he was using the computer as a palliative.
Now, I hadn't pushed at all to tell him about my night - not the first time, and I hadn't said a single word coming out of the bathroom. After "Great!", I asked if he wanted to hear about it now or later. He said 'Later' and I cheerfully said "Ok!" and wandered off to find jammies. I'm not at all sure what's up with him but unless it's straight sleep deprivation, something has him tied in knots.
<shrug>
Not gonna mindread tonight.
H woke up in a much better mood. He sorted through the boxes of giveaways with many thanks for my efforts in doing the first cull. If the black shirt belonged to OW, he didn't seem to realize it and he didn't pull it out of the pile. There was also a book of Judaica that I was letting of of that he didn't keep. He did, however, rescue a Bob the Builder CD, and I had to wonder if it was for OW's daughter. <shrug> Whatever.
There were also lots of comments along the lines of
"Wow, you bought me this when we lived in....."
"I remember this! <insert nostalgia here>"
And there was one of those future-looking comments that included me. There was small a pile of good-condition, mate-less socks. I said I'd found them in a box, so perhaps they had mates if we integrated them with the laundry - or perhaps not.
H: Let's keep them. If they still don't have mates we can do this again in a year.
And then he hugged me before he left.
About last night - esp. given his 'respectable' comments, I wonder if he did feel jealous and/or threatened even though I didn't pull any of the aforementioned tricks? And I wonder if his grumpiness when I got back had to do w/me being gone? Rejection, maybe? No way to know of course, and yes - it's not always about me, but there you go.
For the last week H has seemed morose and conflicted. I have been leaving him alone about it and giving him space while still being generally cheerful/PMA when around him. I have not offered to listen or tried to get him to talk. In the old R, he sometimes found such attempts invasive because I could read him too well.
However, I'm also concerned about appearing uncaring and unsupportive. Should I make any overture at all along the lines of "I'm here to listen if something is on your mind."
That could well trigger an R talk, so I'm not sure I want to go there.
[quoteHowever, I'm also concerned about appearing uncaring and unsupportive. Should I make any overture at all along the lines of "I'm here to listen if something is on your mind."
] [/quote]
"You look like there is ___________ __________ ________ _______. How can I help?"
You make the offer. He will respond with what he wants.
Win-Win.
Hi Dia.
I would say you are probably spot on with your assessment. The comments he made about future activities sounded like a need for reassurance that things were still heading towards you two being together. You kind of rattled his cage last night.
Thanks, Coach!
And if it's an R talk, I just... handle it?
Whit if it's...
Dia: How can I help?
H: By getting the F out of my house!
Hi Dia.
I would say you are probably spot on with your assessment. The comments he made about future activities sounded like a need for reassurance that things were still heading towards you two being together. You kind of rattled his cage last night.
Hmm, you really think so? Even tho he goes out twice a week and I've only done it twice period, you think I rattled him that hard?
I'll keep that in mind. Not gonna do what Coach suggested via email; will wait and do it in person tonight. Will make more hors d'ouvres to have ready when he gets home - he liked that.
Also, forgot to mention this - H said kidlet wanted to have a sleepover *here* tonight. I said I was fine with that, but where would I sleep as sleepovers happen in the LR.
H: Hmm, you're right. I can set the kids up in kidlet's room somehow. Or you could sleep in the big bed.
Dia: You're right. We'll work it out somehow.
Just FYI, both of them sleeping in kidlet's room won't work. This is a funky old house that has been added onto stupidly. Kidlet's room is oddly L-shaped and never more than 4-5 feet wide. There very literally is not room for a second child to sleep in there.
I handled his mention of me sleeping in the MBR very lightly. I was afraid that if I said Yes immediately to that, he'd rethink it negatively during the day.
I think so. Him going out twice a week is business as usual. You going from Ms. Seductress to out on the town is a 180. He's getting comfortable with the cake eating. You may have just reminded him that he has to make a choice.
Good luck with the talk. I really understand being afraid of R talk. We hear all the time avoid it but, is that reasonable? Don't we eventually have to put on our big kid pants and face the issues?
Hmmm, so I go out looking hot, he's Mr. Grumpy-Puss when I get back (a bit late) and the next morning he's all nostalgia and 'maybe you could sleep in the big bed'.
Ok. For whatever reason, I wasn't drawing a straight line through all of those points.
No straight line because you threw him for a loop, Dia!
Ha!
Well, good. I will pile some extra boxes on the futon and make darn sure that sleepover happens tonight.
Dia: Gosh, H, I guess the best place for me to sleep *is* the big bed.
Dia I think hes got his underpants in a serious twist, hes not ready to commit yet (its scares him) but is testing by talking about the future to see if you bite! Its a hard one, saying "im here if you need a chat" is a bit too much laying the doormat out, but ignoring them isnt caring enough.. I totally understand Im concerned that some of my 180's could be construed as the non-caring, revengeful stuff he has accused me off instead of it just being GAL!
(((((Dia)))))
I think he knows you are there, if he wants to talk to you. I'd keep letting your actions doing the talking, and keeping your mouth closed.
For whatever reason, I wasn't drawing a straight line through all of those points.
That's because it's not a straight line! Those all play together, with probably 100 other things, in his confused mind. It's not a normal, logical progression you are working through. It's more of an unscripted, illogical dance, where there might be a thousand ways of getting from the beginning to the end, and there isn't even one end. All you can do is try to infuence the direction the dance goes, but it you push too hard, you get to do a spin, and end up at the other end of the room!
2 cents: I wouldn't necessarily attempt the quadruple salchow of possible r-talk PLUS bed question in the same night. See how the bed thing shakes out. IMHO.
Oh dear ... I didn't even see that pun until it was too late. I refuse to recant, however .....
I agree, Kett. If bed yes, then no R talk. He'll be on shaky enough ground (*wink*) as it is.
If no bed, then maybe an overture to listen a la Coach.
Work vent
So yesterday, I got my three workflow people together and told them to iron their varied priorities into ONE master list because each one was shifting me from this project to that and very little was getting completed.
Lo and behold, the CEO gave me The Master List.
Do this. Then this. And if anyone bothers you, tell them I said so!
So today I have had two, count 'em, t-w-o, "OMG, OMG, this is ON FIRE. Drop EVERYTHING and do it NOW NOW NOW."
And one of them is the CEO.
Color my eye jaundiced.
Hi Dia
You certainly did shake him up a bit I would say. No harm in that.
Keep up the sensational work.
I am going to be going out a couple of times during the week next week, so will hopefully shake mine up a bit again as well.
Sleepover HERE arranged and confirmed with other parent - CHECK
Plethora of boxes piled on futon. Gosh, no one can sleep there - CHECK
Kidlet's bed - too much cat fur. My athsma, you know - CHECK
Hors d'ouevres ready to be placed on bar - CHECK
Supper for two planned involving H's garden (kids arrive fed from other house) - CHECK
Wine chilled - CHECK
So, the only way out of letting me sleep in the MBR with H is for H to sleep in kidlet's bed himself. And just so you know, the sleepover magically materialized while I was at jazz night. It was only an afterschool playdate at the other kid's house when I left. Did H set it up, thus triggering the whole bed quandary which he could then solve by inviting me into the master bed? Enquiring minds want to know.
Well, mmmm, all very interesting Dia. Plenty of intrigue in your posts!!
H came home seeming happy, warm and almost - dare I say it? - tender. I got a nice, warm hug, some bowled-over appreciation for the waiting insalata caprese and eager drooling over the
chicken dish I was preparing for supper. Then this:
H: Oooh, and you're even smelly! (my perfume)
Dia <mock indignation>: I beg your pardon?
(convo ended by nice warm hug)
If there had been a kiss or a tushie squeeze, it would have been just like old times.
I still had work to do, so he took his snack to the couch while I sat on the loveseat and finished up. He made a few, short conversational salvos while I was working, and I responded in kind.
So far so good. Kids arrive in 20 - 25 mins.
Edit: I added the juice of half a lime to the chicken rub. We have a mandarin lime tree, so lime goes in a lot of stuff around here.
And yes, I *do* get to sleep in the master bed tonight, and yes, *with* him.
<Dia beams>
He was falling asleep in his book though, so he's gone to bed already. I'm staying up a bit later to keep an eye on the boys, but gosh darnit, I'm attempting a snuggle when I get in there!
So when he said he was going to bed, he was looking into my eyes. He looked and sounded vulnerable. He said I was welcome to join him when the boys were settled. I asked him if he wanted a hug. He said yes. It was another *good* hug.
And this weekend, while I'm down south, I am buying some more... alluring... pjs.
OOOOhhhh Dia
This all sounds very promising, can't wait for the next instalment.
I think I need to come and have some cooking lessons, I always like to read what tasty treats you have made when you journal here. You have inspired me.
PS. Don't stay up too late....
Hey Dia, thought I would stop by and catch up a little before i head out. As usual , your posts give me some hope. Have a great weekend.
Dusk
We had a wonderful night. I did not need to angle for a cuddle as he pulled me into one as soon as I got in the bed. We did not ML. Instead there were hours of unhurried, exploratory caresses. We slept tight in each other's arms, stirring every so often to snuggle some more.
I'm still processing all of it, plus I need to get on the road to visit my grandfather. But as far as I can tell, what happened was very, very good.
Indeed.
Good stuff! Have a safe trip. Thanks for reminding us what patience means.
Great job Dia! You deserve it.
Congratulations Dia that one step closer.
You go girl!
yay Dia!! I hope that things keep looking up for you! Just wanted to stop by quickly to say hello!
Hi, all,
Thank you for the props and good wishes. I have a cold I caught from kidlet, felt it come on round supper last night. Bleah. Good visit with my grandfather, though. Not looking forward to the 4 hr drive back home.
Here are a few snippets of conversation from cuddle-night.
-------------------
Right when I got into bed, H pulling me close.
H: I haven't let myself hold you.
Dia: I didn't want to push.
H: Thank you for giving me my space.
----------------------
On not ML that night
H: That should wait... after some wakeful exchanges.
1) So we *will* be making love.
2) There's an R talk coming.
3) He's confident and in control. Good.
-----------------------
H: Don't worry about leaving me with bad feelings. I know you worry about doing the right thing. You did the right thing.
(No clue, actually. Leaving him?? Maybe he's telling me not to worry about him feeling bad for dumping OW? Not sure she's been dumped, btw. Maybe he means don't feel bad about taking him away from her? Will have to find out what this meant.)
---------------------
There were no "I love yous" and no kissing on the mouth. Plenty of little kisses on the shoulder, cheek, forehead, eyes, etc. I am hoping this means he wants to take it slow, open up slowly, etc. However, I need to make very certain it isn't a "Pretty Woman"-style 'no kissing because this is just sex' thing. I am nobody's f-toy (ok, a little f-toy action is just fine IF the marriage is close and intact
). I am not interested in a booty call, a sympathy F or 'divorce sex'. It's gotta be all or nothing.
I am actually looking forward to the R talk. It will be nice to know exactly where things stand, wherever that may be.
Also, one of the things I have been processing is the very high degree of differentiation (a la Schnarch) he showed during the whole thing. Don't get me wrong. This is not bad; just... new and unusual. If he's where I think he is, we will be negotiating a whole new, very grown-up marriage that is very different from 'two kids in love' - which is what we were.
I have been finding this thought very sobering. I'm not afraid of it. It's just - the Universe appears to be on the cusp of giving me the thing I have wanted for at least the last 5 years or so, maybe more (like maybe most of my marriage?). It isn't going to be easy, and there's a certain weightiness to it. (i.e. Don't screw it up!) That's sobering!!
And, one last little tidbit...
During the night, new kitty horked copiously all over the rug. H cleaned it up, and I apologized profusely.
H: Oh, it's ok. I don't mind taking care of them.
Besides, now he's my kitty, too.(italics added)
Ok, that one gave me goosebumps.
That's wonderful, Dia!! *sigh*
I don't think you have anything to worry about in that exchange. "Leaving him with bad feelings" might simply mean your visit to your grandfather, or it might be a general "I don't have bad feelings about this."
Dia every time I read your post it gives me hope that one day, my H might come home again! Im so pleased for you, you certainly deserve it to all come right now! (()) for the cold.
Hi Dia
That all sounds great, I am really happy for you with how things are moving along. I seriously think OW is ancient history now.
Fantastic news Dia. It makes me wonder what I might achieve if I took a slowly, slowly approach....more later as I'd like your feedback
Ok Dia, so I'm back. A brief summary..... H has ow who is an employee. H occasionally works in the business although was f/time at the commencement of the A. He doesn't live with ow and what I can establish is that he visits/stays over once or twice a week, usually coinciding with his visits to work.
H appears to be very much in selfish mode.
H has always maintained that he wants to be friends. We have maintained open communication with regards to the kids. He has shown lots of positive actions towards me-fixed things around the house, did my tax, drop in visits, family dinners, dinner with me after S's formal, visits to me in hospital, drive us to the airport etc etc. Unfortunately, these acts of service also come with major pull backs and large doses of cake eating along the way.
My problem is that I am impatient and I can keep at it for so long and then I pressure him and he retreats monumentally. Slow learner!
The advice of many has been to have nc and I can see the merit in this and have had nc for 3 weeks. That's fine and I feel better for the space. However, I'm not feeling I am making any progress. Perhaps I am; however, H is particularly stubborn and in reality I cannot see him initiating contact.
So, in reading your progress while I applaud each time there's a step forward in your relationship I also recognise it's been from your thoughtful and considered approach. Your H has simply responded along the way (and great responses, too!!)
So I wonder about your opinion given your recent experiences; do I reinitiate contact, this time being much more patient and give it one last shot or do I maintain the nc? I know that if I reinitiate contact I am going against the Gucci type advice and not forcing him to make a choice but I am also aware that if I take your tact eventually he's going to have to make a choice anyway.
Confused?? I am!
Thanks,
Cas
Cas,
I will let Dia advise you how she will, but I will caution you very strongly not to base your next action on the action/progress is another sitch. I know it is so hard to be patient, but what works in one sitch could be poison in another.
At this point you aren't asking him to make a choice. You are giving yourself and he space to think and feel.
Let him initiate the contact. With the kids in the picture, he will, even if you are sure he won't. In the meantime, journal all of your thoughts, what you would like to say or do.
Dia,
I am so very thrilled for you. Baby steps are the hardest steps to take, but as you've shown, each baby step adds to the next.
Hiya, Cas,
I just got back from my drive, and between that and the cold, I'm brain dead. I will respond at greater length tomorrow. For now, tho, I'd stay with the NC. H and I were NC for vast stretches of time and I think, leaving our adventures with OPs aside, that the time away was GOOD for us. It allowed us to solidify as separate, independent, well-adjusted people.
Here's another of my 'patience' mantra, in case it helps. I told myself that if these days in the house with H were the last ones I was ever going to spend with him, then gosh darnit, I was going to enjoy them just as they were and not do anything to spoil them (meaning pushing, being angsty, angry, sad, resentful, etc.) I wasn't perfect for sure - my rants and vents here show that - but I do think the overall attitude helped.
Not meant as a 2x4, but from a place of caring - use the time away to work on the stuff that makes you get impatient and push. The times when H gave the most ground or came the closest were the times when I completely let go of whatever it was I was wanting or pushing for.
As far as OW, the only time I ever even mentioned her or their R was the time I told him it hurt me when he talked about her in front of me. Other than that, I pretended she didn't exist. We've also not had a single R talk in the time I've been here.
Ok - more later! Hang in there.
I'm back on the couch. Sigh.
It's not a pullback so much as it is an abundance of caution on his part. He was on his computer and I wanted to go to bed. I'm sick and I'm tired from a grueling weekend. So I asked him casually and politely if he wanted me back on the couch. He said yes, that would be best for him.
And yes, I did have a few minutes of dumbfounded panic. But after those minutes, I was ok. I mentally reset all of my expectation meters back to ZERO. It helped that we met in the hall while I was getting my blankets and he strongly implied that it was temporary.
H: I'm sorry about the couch. I just don't want my body making decisions for me until we've had a chance to talk some things out.
Dia <reassuringly>: It's ok. It's absolutely ok. I understand, and I'm not upset.
H <relieved>: Good. I was afraid you'd be hurt.
Dia: Nope. Slow is good. Slow is smart.
H: <initiates really nice hug complete with stroking my hair and the fingers trailing, hand holding thing>
All in all, it's probably for the best. If he doesn't already have this cold, maybe he won't get it.
Hi Dia
I can understand your panic and am glad you were able to keep a cool head.
At least he indicated it was temporary which is a really good sign.
You are certainly a master in the art of DBing.
Thanks Dia and wifey. Appreciate your feedback. I never mention ow at all to H. I was interested in your perspective, Dia given the fact that you have had periods of nc prior to you moving back to H's house. I am just trying to consider all perspectives before I do anything or do nothing! I am certainly not trying to replicate your success as I am astutue enough to know all situations are different and certainly I do not have the same skills you have and nor do I have the opportunity as a housemate.
As for the couch...you've been patient for so long and I think your H speaks sense here. Go with it. Let it all unfold as it should.
Thanks,
Cas
Morning Dia, from my POV I would take it as a compliment from H that he is not willing to "cake eat" at this time, slow & smart perfect words in reply!
And on another note, he isn't willing to let his body think for him. That at least lets you know his body is in the game. I for one think that is a good thing. And, it is extremely respectful of you and your new relationship that he made that distinction.
Slow is good (can't believe I just wrote that). I have a new found respect for your H, sounds like you do as well.
Yep - re: slow
Yes, there *is* new respect there. He is acting with integrity. It may seem counter-intuitive but in ending his R with OW (which I am virtually certain he has done) before officially re-committing to marriage with me, he is displaying honor. And in particular, he is being cleaner about transitioning between relationships when he hasn't in the past. In about the only talk we ever had about OW1 lo these 2 years ago, he wondered to me if maybe there was something wrong with him that he couldn't end a relationship with one woman unless he was already involved in another relationship. Granted, there's not a lot of history there. I was only ever his 2nd girlfriend.
At any rate, I respect his position.
Edit: I'm onl quiet because I'm sick.
Dia,
I have been following along. I agree that your H is taking the honorable approach. And I think that is a good thing. Maybe he wants to be sure he does not hurt you or himself again.
Just keep doing what you are doing.
Quick check in...
Cold seems to be abating but kidlet is home sick today. H still has phone contact with OW, so back to hardcore DBing for me. I was low key yesterday, swamped at work, worked late and didn't do much for my 5 pm ritual b/c I was sick. I did some, just not all. Kinda hard to gussy up and look fab whilst contending with snot.
Back on the pony.
Quick check in...
Cold seems to be abating but kidlet is home sick today. H still has phone contact with OW, so back to hardcore DBing for me. I was low key yesterday, swamped at work, worked late and didn't do much for my 5 pm ritual b/c I was sick. I did some, just not all. Kinda hard to gussy up and look fab whilst contending with snot.
Back on the pony.
Did you overhear him on the phone? Just a couple posts back you were certain he had ended the R with her. He might still think he needs to be her friend until things are clear with the two of you.
In any case he is definitely moving closer to you. My money would bet that with his new maturity/honor he displayed to you he may just well feel he needs to be honorable to let her know the same.
Keep shining. Stay off the pony while you're sick. Sniff and snuffle all you want. He doesn't always need to see you at the top of your game.
On his i-phone, the call history is really big and easy to read. So if he does something like hand me the phone to look at a picture or if he whips it out to make a note on his grocery list, it usually shows a flash of the call history before it switches screens. <shrug> So I know she's there.
Cold may be teaming up with the oncoming PMS train. I think I've said it before but I don't get &!tchy/cranky when PMS strikes. I get sad, vulnerable, sleepy and weepy instead.
Edit: None of that changes the fact that we're doing amazingly well, all things considered. I'm just feeling very flat today and a touch blue. I need a nap and a snuggle.
Dia that stinks. Its just sort of a kick to you when you find something like that out. But she has to sense that hes pulling away from her, and Ill bet that she didnt study dbing, and will be very quickly making herself quite unattractive! Who knows, maybe the phone call was him telling her that it had to end.
I have to say that I am getting a little tired of playing the devils advocate in these situations.
Hi Dia
Hope you get better soon, nothing worse than being sick and feeling flat at the same time.
It could be as bluerain says that she may be trying to hang on when she knows she is losing him fast. Hang in there, you have come such a long way with such great improvement.
DB Coaching sesion tomorrow - looking forward to it immensely. Also, a thought occurred to me - H wants to 'talk things out'. Ok, cool. How about we talk them out in the context of Retro? The big problem with Retro is childcare, though. We'd need to have someone take kidlet for the entire weekend.
His dad is 150 miles away taking care of his mom with an ankle in a cast and my folks live 200 miles away. Additionally, I bet if his mother knew *why* we needed someone to take care of kidlet, she'd refuse.
Made a throw-together chicken stew for supper and it smells amazing. Chicken thighs, white beans, carrots and onions seasoned with garlic, sage and thyme. MmMMMmmmmmmmm! Brownies, too.
I'm wearing a skirt and a velvet tank-top, my hair and makeup are done and I'm wearing perfume. I may not be all the way back on the pony, but I've got a foot in the stirrup.
You, my dear, are a trooper.
Don't hesitate to say "ouch". You're sick and PMSing, after all. He's lucky all his bits are still attached; wink.
So when did this "We need to talk (it out)" occur, and in what context?
Oh Dia
You and your cooking, I wish I could just throw something together like that, I am cooking challenged and seem to always need a recipe.
I wish I had half your courage to go along as you do, you always manage to pick yourself up and keep on going, I need lessons.
Thanks, Oz. It was a very 'comfort-foody' supper. I needed that, tho.
Kett - It's in a good context (I hope!). When I got back from being gone for the weekend, I asked him if he wanted me back on the couch. He said yes, but a few mins later he hugged me and said it was just until we could talk some things out because he didn't want his body making decisions for him.
Translating: If I sleep beside him, he's not going to be able to stop himself from F-ing my brains out.
(those words were used)
Dude, so hurry up and talk then!! I want my cuddles back. <impatient foot tapping>
Hey,
You're doing great. Sniffles and all.
Thanks, Gima.
Pseudephedrine is my friend.
Pseudephedrine is my friend
I LIVE on that stuff - actually the "PE" stuff that doesn't have the ephedine that makes your heart race. Bad weather here, and my sinuses always react to the changing pressure systems when they come through. NOT FUN.
Not sure why I'm always hungry after I read your posts Dia.
I think that gods gift to human kind is Alka-seltzer plus, night time. I think that no matter your complaint that stuff will help!
Dia, dont you have a SIL that has been fairly supportive? Maybe an aunt or uncle could watch him. Im glad that you are feeling better!
Good to hear your on the mend, I feel your inpatience at needing a cuddle from H too..
H was very sweet to me last night. I got a *long* hug when he got home, then he complimented and stroked my hair. Afterwards, he joked about it.
H (teasing): Um, my fingers were just wet and I wanted to dry them.
Dia: Oh? And if *my* fingers are wet, where do *I* get to dry them?
(H has a brush cut, so the only hair available isn't on his head.)
H: <blushes and stammers> (Ha! Got him!)
He was also very appreciative and complimentary of the brownies and the chicken stew, which I thought would last two nights, was gone in one. Kidlet tucked right in to it, eating three bowls worth.
I mentioned mucking out kidlet's room over the weekend, and H said he would help. Then kidlet chimed in to say that he'd decided he wanted to switch rooms after all, which makes for a much bigger task. Overall, this is a good thing. Kidlet will be much happier in the guest room/laundry room as the square shape is much more usable. IT also means he'll be able to have sleepovers in his own room as we'll be able to pull out his trundle bed now. His current room is too narrow for that.
One of H's work buddies is at loose ends for the next two nights as his wife and baby are away on a visit. So the guys from work are having two nights of male debauchery at the no-wife house.
Kidlet and I have planned some 'no Daddy' debauchery of our own, complete with pizza and movies.
Love the hair comment, bit stumped on that one even though its very fine he still has too much present on his head for me to use that one lol!
Hi Dia
Slow and steady wins the race and it seems that is all working for you. I love that you can have little flirty moments all the time, I think that's great.
Call with DB Coach JoAnn was great. She listened to all that's gone on and was blown away. She validated me over and over and told me what a wonderful job I've been doing. We did talk about some specifics, about the importance of listening and validating, but in general, her advice was to keep doing what I'm doing and to not be afraid of the impending R talk.
So basically, same as what you folks have been saying!
So basically, same as what you folks have been saying!
Where do I send my bill?
ROFL!! Yeah, I was thinking I needed to upload some virtual cash for all of you.
(Commence lolspeak)
Here, hav sum muneez...
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@<---------------quarters, or Oreos. Take your pick.
Like I tell people who ask me for free legal advice, "the advice is worth what you paid for it."
That's great Dia to know have it all confirmed for you that you are doing all the right things.
Call with DB Coach JoAnn was great. She listened to all that's gone on and was blown away. She validated me over and over and told me what a wonderful job I've been doing. We did talk about some specifics, about the importance of listening and validating, but in general, her advice was to keep doing what I'm doing and to not be afraid of the impending R talk.
So basically, same as what you folks have been saying!
Really? Seems like everything your doing is wrong. Just kidding. You could write DB2.
Dia, good job! Too bad your son is moving to a bigger room! It seems like that was working in your favor!
I dont think that I would be worried about your R talk, it seems like things are coming along nicely for you!
For the R talk, she said the most important things were:
1) to listen and validate first and foremost
2) to be ok with stepping away or taking a break if something upset me
3) to be clear and calm about any of my own needs and boundaries
For anyone who wonders, yes, DB Coaches will work with both spouses, either separately or in the same session on a conference call. And yes, the confidentiality expectation is the same as regular therapy, meaning that the Coach will not reveal what one person says in session w/o that person's permission. If the Coach is working with both spouses, s/he might *ask* if they can share something with the other spouse, but unless you say yes, they won't reveal it.
Really good to hear that your DB coach says your doing fine, it also gives us some confidence that we are reading the book right and moving on ok in our sitch's. Im rather tempted to see if H will agree to me having some councelling, he owes me that at least but its not going to be the sort of councelling he is expecting lol.
A few more tidbits from the Coaching session.
When I told JoAnn about the cuddle night in the Master bed, esp. about the extent of the roving hands on both sides, she laughed.
DB Coach: I love it when they have affairs with their wives! (referring to the fact that he may have been 'cheating' on OW with me)
She also liked that we had a direct conversation about not making love that night. She said his desire to wait sounded very mature, that it seemed like he'd grown during the separation - which I think he has.
Then we had the 1-10 conversation. I gave the marriage a '3 or 4', up from 1 (What marriage?)last time. I said that maybe the score wasn't even fair. That if we could just get rid of the limbo to where I know we were actually working on things, it would be more like a 6 or 7. Making love and ditching OW would then take it to 8 or 9.
Then we talked about intimacy, not the physical kind, and she told me to take heart about the verbal/emotional intimacy we've been building.
DB Coach: That's the *real* intimacy in a relationship; not the sex. It's the sharing of your innermost thoughts and feelings, trusting your partner with vulnerabilities, insecurities, warts and all. If you can listen, validate and make him safe sharing those things with you, *thats* intimacy.
So last night was night one of H's male bonding nights.
He came home much earlier than I expected - 10 pm. I thought he'd be out til midnight-ish based on what he'd told me about being out 'late'. Then, when he saw the clock, he was surprised it was even that late as he'd meant to leave earlier. This is especially interesting as their boss, who was there, gave H's whole department the day off today for more hanging out time.
I was curled into a corner of the couch reading and he plopped himself down and threw a leg over mine. I stroked his calf while we talked for awhile and shared the 'how was your day' kind of stuff. I told a few funny stories about the kidlet and the cats. That lasted half an hour to 45 mins, then he went to check email and such. I went and read in the master bed mostly cuz it's more comfy-cozy than reading on the couch sometimes (I get awful tired of that couch!).
My kitty came and curled around the top of my head like he does when we sleep in a real bed. He can't do it on the couch as there's not enough room. He ootches his paws into my hair and purrs in my ear.
H had never seen that before, though I'd described it for him. When he was ready to come to bed (I told him I'd move) The whole kitty-in-my hair thing red-lined his cute-meter.
H: Awwwwww! Now *that's* cute!
Yes, I sleep, or try to, with a cat on my head too. He won't let me clip his claws though, so he is a painful friend.
Hi, Sara!
Journalling.
Coupla things...
Last Saturday before I went down south, H asked if it would be ok to use my laptop while I was gone. I said yes, but I'd need to give him the password. He must have seen a look of sadness flit over my face, so he assured me that he just wanted to be able to check his own email or work on his projects from the deck and that he wouldn't snoop. I said that even if he did, I had nothing to hide and I showed him how to log in to the machine.
When I came back, the laptop appeared undisturbed and there's no evidence of use in my browsing history or download history.
Was this a test? And if it was - did I pass? The sadness when he asked was... I'm not entirely sure but I think it's that I *don't* have anything to hide. He can read my email. He can check my chat logs. He can look here. I think the sadness was that he either wouldn't give me the same access if I asked, or that I know he *does* have stuff to hide. Or at least - he hasn't assured me that he doesn't.
Other note for the day - I am doing H's laundry today and I am conflicted over it. He was down to re-wearing socks and wearing strange shirts and I know he'll be out late tonight, so when he mentioned how behind he was on laundry I asked if he'd like me to do it. He said would I please? Thank you, that would be so great. Only if you have time... you don't have to...
So I am doing his laundry. And for some reason, I feel vulnerable about it. All of the other chores I've done, even the cooking, aren't anything different than I'd be doing in a place where it was just me and kidlet. I'd still cook. I'd still clean. I'd still do laundry - for me and kidlet. But doing his laundry is so... wifely. It's pure, 100% AoS, too because I don't want to do it, really. I'm doing it as an act of love for him. So I'm stepping out of my comfort zone again.
I'm matching his socks, folding his underwear, hanging his shirts and putting everything neatly folded on his bed. Normally, I'd put stuff neatly into his drawers but I'm staying out of his drawers (pun intended) for the time being.
I guess if I'm his wife - in the full sense of the word and not a mere legal technicality - I'm fine with doing his laundry. But if I'm not, it's a dam% friggen big piece of cake I've just handed him. See, if we don't stay together, I'm not going to resent the cooking or the cleaning. But darn it, I'm going to resent doing his laundry. I wonder why laundry seems so much more personal and intimate somehow than cooking? Is it the whole underwear thing?
Anyway, and the fact that I know I would resent having done his laundry if we split up means... I need to work on that, or I need to not do his laundry? I'm still pondering which.
I guess if I'm his wife - in the full sense of the word and not a mere legal technicality - I'm fine with doing his laundry. But if I'm not, it's a dam% friggen big piece of cake I've just handed him. See, if we don't stay together, I'm not going to resent the cooking or the cleaning. But darn it, I'm going to resent doing his laundry. I wonder why laundry seems so much more personal and intimate somehow than cooking? Is it the whole underwear thing?
No, it's not the underwear thing. Your fear kicked in. You were adding up all the things you are doing and not minding. Once the thought that you wouldn't be his wife crept in you got scared and sunk. You need that faith to walk across the water. Give with both hands and your whole heart. No regrets.
You
are handling it.
Cheers
Yes, Coach, you're right. I'm afraid of being hurt.
Thank you.
Hold on a minute. I am a bit concerned about this resentment over doing his laundry. Not the actual resentment but the fact that you did it despite the fact you didn’t want to. This is a dangerous precedent to set. If this is something you resent or will in future don’t do it. Are you rebuilding or falling back into old roles? Is this something you would like to do long term?
I hear you, C-Bart. I thought about that long and hard while folding his things. The decision I came to before I read what Coach said is that I need to not do his laundry again w/o saying something about it. There's a boundary there.
Coach, however, has an accurate and valid point. Let me unpack a few things...
In the past I felt resentful about the laundry because it is a never-ending task that I did 90% of. Maybe 95%
And H griped that either HE did most of the housework or that I never did enough.
The resentment was not so much about the laundry as it was about the lack of recognition and appreciation for what I was doing. I felt taken for granted for starters, and then on top of that I was getting busted on for not doing enough.
BUT - that is the old reality. Not the new reality. The new reality is that H has different ideas about housework in general, and he seems to A) recognize, and B) appreciate greatly the things I do. So the situation is different and my response to it is based on old triggers.
I'm going to watch and wait, see how H responds. I will give this with both hands and a whole heart today. It's no different than acting as if. I can't tell you if I will do it again in the future because I don't know what the future holds yet. It doesn't hold the past, though, because even if H *isn't* different; I am. It's not the old marriage anymore, so I will be patient and see how this plays in the new marriage.
Edit: As for long term - I think I would like him to do his own laundry, but I won't mind doing it as an occasional favor.
Well, I just had another one of my little epiphanies. I've been waiting around in Limboland wondering if I'd get a chance at a new marriage and when it would start. Then it hit me.
I'm already in it.
It's got an OW, and I'm sleeping on the couch but even so it's actually pretty good. And it's WAY better than the last year or so of the old marriage.
Am I nuts to think that doing someone's laundry while they are with OW and living under the same roof with you is a reasonable thing to take issue with?
I have to admit, this thread confuses me.
Am I nuts to think that doing someone's laundry while they are with OW and living under the same roof with you is a reasonable thing to take issue with?
I have to admit, this thread confuses me.
If it's working (which it still seems to be, things are moving in the right direction), don't stop. Keep the goal in mind.
You're right, I should let Dia define that.
Am I nuts to think that doing someone's laundry while they are with OW and living under the same roof with you is a reasonable thing to take issue with?
I have to admit, this thread confuses me.
Believe me, I hear you. And that's WHY I had an issue with it.
But I'm supposed to experiment and see what works, right? So I'm experimenting. We'll see if it works.
<cue Folger's commercial>
We've secretly replaced H's WAW with a hardcore DBer instead. Let's see if he notices!
<cue Folger's commercial>
We've secretly replaced H's WAW with a hardcore DBer instead. Let's see if he notices!
Funny.
The goal is to re-entwine our lives and foster partnership. He needed help. I offered. I delievered. Now we'll see what he does.
Keep in mind that there is an impending R talk which I think will happen this weekend, and I have been pretty much told that this talk will deliver the keys to a renewed sex life and a ticket off the couch. And yes, on my end that does mean no more OW for him - else Dia stays on the couch and fixes him crow instead of chicken for supper.
Ok. I'm rooting for you. I just relate to your apprehension. You give it your best shot...see what it avails.
It's an act of trust and choosing to love. Without trust and love, the house that is your marriage cannot stand. But that doesn't mean you have to do it silently. It's OK to let him know that you are doing it as such.
Things that would raise my hackles in other sitches don't in Dia's sitch, because the past seems pretty murky,meaning, plenty of faults and infidelities to go around. And if it takes one person a little bit longer to pull his head out of the rabbit hole, well, that's not entirely unreasonable. Plus, the movement in their general relationship dynamic seems so very very positive and not like standard cake-eating somehow.
Dia, I would do what the spirit moves you to do, erring on the side of love, compassion, and generosity *at least* until after The Talk. Then, when at least you have some mutual agreement on what the level of committment to the marriage is, you can worry about division of labor and other boundaries then.
Stay the course, girlie. If anything were to go pear-shaped now, you'd be hurt badly. That's a fact; accept it. Don't let your nerves cause *you* to pull away against your overall intention.
If anything were to go pear-shaped now, you'd be hurt badly. That's a fact; accept it.
Yep, in for a penny, in for a pound. Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, and all those other platitudes. I knew the risks, so if I get hurt - well, I knew the risks.
There's a saying in Portuguese - I may have already quoted it here? - that goes like this:
Ha quem nao ama por medo de sofrer e passa a vida toda sofrendo por medo de amar.
or
Those who will not love for fear of suffering spend their entire lives suffering in fear of love.
Beautiful Dia. Go for it. You seem wise enough to recognize if and when a change in course is necessary. I admire your fortitude.
FYI - apologies for not making the rounds more. These people I allegedly work for seem to think that I should actually WORK in return for my paycheck. The noive!!
Hi, Dia,
Even though we didn't post each other's threads a lot, your is one I followed closely. I'm back and have a lot of catching up to do, but I'm so glad to see that you seem to be making some steady progress, girl.
Hi Dia
I am sure you know very well how to handle what you are now attempting to do and I am sure it will work in your favour. It is all slow and steady and you aren't making any sudden movements which could send him running.
((((Dia))))
Oh, and by the way, anyone who uses Pshaw!! in one post (GIMA's) and The noive! in another a few minutes earlier definitely has my kind of humor.
Very funny.
Gardener - thank you for the kind words. I'm glad to see you back!
Updates...
In keeping with the idea that I'm already in my new marriage, I decided to greet my husband like a wife last night instead of like a DBer who's letting him come to me. (Yes, I suppose wife and DBer are one and the same, but stick with me here.) So before he got home, I prettied up a bit, not the whole 9 yards but I refreshed my hair and perfume and some minimal lipstick.
When H got home a bit after 10, I got up from my reading, walked directly to him with a warm smile and greeted him with a warm, close hug, pressing my cheek against the side of his throat. He chattered very briefly about his evening, then displayed the milk I'd asked him to pick up and a package of mint Oreos left over from the nights of male debauch.
I put these to good use.
He ooohed and ahhhed over the laundry and I got a second hug in the space of about 5 minutes. He followed me back out to the LR, but instead of sitting down with me, he said he was tired and wanted to go to sleep. I stood back up and got my third nice hug of the evening. For two of these hugs, I attempted to end the hug before he did to see what he would do. Since I've been letting him initiate the hugs, I've also been staying in them until he pulls away and I've wondered what he would do if I pulled away first. Both times, he tightened his grip to hold onto me longer, so I gave him a squeeze and re-entered the hugs.
For this one, at the end of the hug he held onto my shoulders then angled me into the light so he could look at me.
H: Did you go out tonight?
Dia: Nope, I was right here.
H: You're dressed up, and you have lip stuff on. (note: same blouse and skirt I had on this morning)
Dia: I just felt like looking nice.
H: Your hair is pretty. <he fingers my hair>
H: And I like the music. (It was Enya, some of our love-making music.)
Then I settled back onto the couch and he headed for bed.
-------------------
Next morning...
First off, he noticed the large stack of boxes in the DR that I'd put there in preparation for moving kidlet's room over the weekend. Then, when he wandered into the guest room where I have my office, he gave me an unprovoked hug in my office chair.
As we moved about the general morning business of getting everyone up and out, there were two significant conversations.
One was about my car, an 05 Prius. His is a 98 Contour that's on its last legs, and his dream car is to have a Prius like mine. So I said that my Prius needed brakes, an oil change, the tires rotated, and its 60k service, but as soon as those things were done, I thought he should start driving it to work and leave the Contour at the house for me since I almost never need a car. In addition to being more pleasant for him this would save on gas.
He said he sure wouldn't fight me on on the switch, then he said this:
H: What's wrong with the brakes?
Dia: They're original, and it's well past the mileage for the first brake service.
H: Oh, you mean <H-name> brakes! Yes, we should have those replaced.
Dia: (laughs in shock and surprise) Yes, we should. I don't want you driving the car unless I know it's safe.
H: Here's what we should do. We should take it to the shop near my work and have them look at it. Then we can make the repairs as we can afford them. (note his use of pronouns and the implied time span, cooperation, etc.)
Ok, so him joking about the brakes is f-HUGE. We had a major dust-up about the brakes on his car three years ago and he's been a complete bear about it ever since. If I ever even alluded to it, or when I brought it up in MC as an example of a pattern that bothered me, he became defensive and would berate me soundly.
Here's the other convo of note:
He brought up being gone or busy three nights this week, asking what I wanted for supper and saying he had no idea where we were on groceries, etc. I suggested hamburgers, he agreed and I didn't rise to the issue of him being gone.
H: I've been gone so many nights that I feel all disconnected and out of touch with you. (possible implied plural you, meaning me and kidlet)
Dia: It's ok. We're right here waiting for you. It was a special occasion, and I support your social life.
H <looking at me>: Well, I don't like being gone that much.
Dia <nonchalant, agreeable nod>: Ok.
Then, even though H and I already had two hugs that morning and I'd already hugged kidlet goodbye for school, he pulled both of us into a family hug.
Total hug count last night: 3
Total hug count this morning: 4
Hi Dia
I'm a lurker who read up on your sitch last night. I'm a fan of GIMA - any how I want to say what an inspiration you are to me - looks like a real DB success story.
Anytime you'd like to check out my thread, I'd appreciate your input
"I'm new and wondering if this works" thanks!
Congratulations!!!
Glad to hear that he noticed the laundry and complimented. Sounds like you both have changed a lot in the past 3 years. Hope the talk goes well. I have trouble waiting this long for sex.
I have trouble waiting this long for sex.
If there was OW?
Yes, I made him make love to me the night he got home from being with OW. But that's me. I knew I could win the battle of the bedroom.
Hi Dia
It is great that he is now using the terms "we" and indicating that he doesn't like being away so much. They are fantastic positive signs, eagerly awaiting the next instalment.
FYI re: Battle of the Bedroom
This is precisely why he is making me sleep on the couch until we talk. I have this one already won hands down and tied behind my back (wink, wink). He knows that keeping a certain amount of physical distance is the only thing that will keep us from ravishing each other, and if I'm laying next to him scantily clad and ever so temptingly close, he knows he's toast.
Signed,
La Belle Dame sans Merci
<wicked female grin>
I so love your humour Dia.
I laughed out loud when I saw the new name for your thread! Love a girl with confidence! That's how I am too. My H was dating both OW and me before we decided to get married. So I knew she was no match. Besides, a little scantily clad bellydancing never goes unrewarded.
Dia,
You are doing so well and I am so proud of you. Patience now, the R talk may take a while for him to work up his nerve. The family hug gave me chills.
I know he knows what can be - and it was right there in his arms.
Patience, patience - because I know things are moving in a very positive direction.
So last night we decided to watch Legend. H got it off Netflix not realizing it's the version w/o the Tangerine Dream soundtrack. Hmmm, very different movie. Think I like it better the other way.
Anyhow, H set himself up on the couch intending to have me snuggled against him and kidlet snuggled against me. That worked for all of 10 mins until each of us had to get up for something. When we got back, kidlet changed the configuration - he wanted to be in the middle. H seemed a bit disappointed but didn't fight it so we spent the rest of the movie that way. Kidlet was unsettled by the movie and wanted to sleep in the big bed, and again, H seemed a bit put out but didn't fight it. Then he went to his computer (pooh!), and I fell asleep on the couch(sans bedding) looking at a catalog.
I have no idea how late it was when H finally went to bed but he woke me up saying that I needed some blankets. Barely awake, I slipped an arm around his waist, leaned my cheek against his hip and promptly fell back asleep. So he dragged me into the big bed where kidlet was already sleeping. He offered me the choice of sleeping in the middle next to him or on the edge with kidlet between us. I was too asleep to comprehend, so he dragged me into the middle.
We slept all cuddled up again, though with much less roving of the hands as kidlet was asleep in the same bed. Glad it's a king!! I even got a Sleeping Beauty style kiss half-way on the lips. More than one, I think, as we were waking up.
Today, I'm switching kidlet into the guest room and everything is at the worst point of the uproar. There are disassembled pieces of furniture in just about every room in the house. This kind of disarray will drive H batchit crazy in a hurry, so my goal is to get most of it put to rights - or at least out of the way, today.
Some of these pieces of furniture H is talking about giving away, such as the futon and dining table. He knows I want these if I have to move out, so I'm wondering if this is a tacit admission that I'm *not*. And if I'm not moving out, yes, we can let them go.
H is out procuring a vacuum cleaner from some friends. Ours died during one of my other cleaning fits and due to the strange configuration, kidlet's old room has not been vacuumed for a good 5 years. Ewwwwww! And I am NOT putting anything back in there until the Halloween-style dust films and cobwebs are 100% gone. I even washed the walls. H has never heard of anyone washing walls before but my mother did that once a year or so, esp. in the kitchen and esp. with kids around.
Anyhow - back to it.
Edit: Oh yeah! And last night while we were both out on the deck, he actually snuggled against me standing up while we looked at the sunset!!
Give away the furniture. Don't mention any if's. He is moving steadily in the direction you want him to go, but he is in stealth mode. If you question it, he may balk. Just keep feathering the nest, little bird.
Wow, go dia! Sounds like a great night! I agree with sara, I would just get rid of the furniture. If you dont have any place to store it then you really cant keep it around anyway, right?
Nesting. Yup, that is absitively posolutely what I am doing.
Thanks, Sara, Oz, Blue and Wifey.
I am one dirty girl at present, though possibly a redneck's dream. I oiled all of the nuts and bolts for kidlet's bed before I put it back together, so I smell of sweat, perfume and WD-40.
I need a hot tub and a massage!
It's great to read about some positive movement.
Good for you!
Hmmm...
H is in his office listening to our love-making music on his computer. And not sweet, fluffy Enya, either. He's listening to the 'ride me hard' stuff.
Might be a nice night ahead...
oh goodness.
Dia,
Sounds like things may be heating up a bit.
ok but no expectations right?!
I almost edited my post to include that, and I should have.
lol GIMA, I would have alot of trouble not having expectations... big ones!
I'm waiting for details!
No fireworks last night - but I'm not disappointed. We watched the 2nd Pirates movie cuddled on the couch then I got invited for a 2nd night in a row in the Master bed. No fireworks but plenty of handsy-handsy under the covers and lots of sleeping cuddled tight against each other.
I'm working hard on excavating kidlet's old room today. Lots of stuff to give away, and every single item made of cloth that comes out of that room has to be laundered as I've encountered two black widows so far. <massive shudder> Snakes, rodents and insects don't bother me but spiders give me bigtime heebie-jeebies, esp. the widows.
We've decided that we can't use that room as a bedroom anymore. The narrow space makes it too hard to clean, allowing for things like spider infestations. I have to forcibly keep myself from thinking about my child sleeping there b/c the widows were around where his bed was. I'll be doing a thorough spray-down of the exterior with bug spray, and after that we'll use that room for storage and/or office space where we can see under things, move things easily for cleaning, etc.
Well, it happened. We had our first R talk. It went well. Very well, I think though my hands and the rest of me are shaking like a leaf.
He called me out to talk on the hammock and wouldn't you know that the hammock picked right then to have two ropes break, spilling us onto the deck. So we took the talk inside.
H said that the primary source of his discomfort with me and hence his reluctance to let me all the way in was due to times in the past when I had been very unhappy and blamed my unhappiness on him. He felt that was grossly unfair, and so why should he let me in again? At some point in the future, I'd get unhappy and just blame him for it.
Dia: You are right. I blamed you excessively and unfairly. Your feelings are completely valid.
He touched on a few specifics, and I listened and validated. Then he said that I was different. He listed several specifics and said for the last few months, I had been an amazing partner. That if he broke up with OW to be with me, it was going to cause immense pain and chaos in multiple areas. It would break her heart. She loves him, he loves her and she's never done anything bad to him to deserve this. Additionally, it would make things very difficult with his family and he would feel embarrassed around town as the grapevine version of our divorce is that he was some sort of grand victim in this whole thing.
This time, I had to almost bite my lips to keep from 'fixing' things. Again, I said I understood. That I respected how he'd been handling this. That I admired his strength and his honor.
Then he said that was all, at least for today. But he'd needed to say those things to me. That he'd been experiencing conflict coming home because I was the symbol of the conflict he was feeling. That especially since we'd climbed into bed, he needed to get some things out in the open. He reiterated that I was a different person, and that the humble way I'd approached this conversation was case in point.
There were no hugs. I thanked him for talking and we both went back to our respective projects.
He probably said about 10 words to my one in the convo, and that's probably how it should have been. I did not try to air any of my own hurts, my own perceptions, etc. save one. There will be time for that later. Today, he needed to be heard alone and exclusively.
The one perception I shared was related to alcohol. He said that I had called him an alcoholic (I did), and that that was wrong - he isn't and wasn't an alcoholic. I agreed. I said I didn't think he was an alcoholic then or now. I said that over a certain period, I thought he had been drinking too much and for the wrong reasons, but that not everyone who does that is an alcoholic. He agreed.
He mentioned my offering him wine near when I first arrived, and I said it had been a peace offering, a demonstration that I thought the alcohol issues had been resolved. He thanked me.
We've both retreated to our corners for some self-soothing, which I think is wise. We both need to process what just happened even tho the convo lasted way less than half an hour. I'm calming down slowly. Even tho I was calm and fine during the talk, afterward I felt exactly like you do after a car accident, the post-adrenaline dump comedown.
Oops, forgot this.
He thanked me for being patient about his pictures of OW. He said that I could have done something catty with them, but I hadn't and he appreciated that. I shrugged and nodded. I started to say that I wasn't that way, but he said it for me.
H: You're not that way. I know you're not. Thank you anyways, tho.
Awwwwwwwww--sweetie, that was so hard to hear! You did great. You responded perfectly--and he noticed.
Just a thought--even though you symbolize the conflict he's feeling, he still keeps coming home to you, and not staying away. And certainly seems to enjoy the time you spend together!
Hang in there. He knows you've changed. Now it's his turn.
Hey, the mere fact he brought up the R talk is a milestoen in itself. View it as a possible positive step, and keep doing what you are doing. Based on his comments, it's obviously working.
Oh, and on the issue of breaking OW's heart, H has a child with YOU. H has a family with YOU. I don't think it's a close race b/w you and OW, but even if it were a tie, YOU should get the tie breaker.
I was also thinking about why he brought up OW and how it would be bad to break her heart. The fact he brought this up as a possibility means he's giving it thought. Give him the room to make the right decision and keep being the new Dia.
Hi Dia
I haven't checked in for a bit due my H finding the site on Saturday, panic stations.
I think it is all going really well for you Dia, it's like chipping away at stone to reveal something precious that is hidden but you are well on your way to discovering what you have been working towards.
FWIW, I think he brought up breaking up w/ OW because he knows he's going to do it/ is at the point of doing it and he wants me to realize how serious this all is.
Now that a bit of time has passed, I'm ok with the convo. It went fabulously.
FWIW, I think he brought up breaking up w/ OW because he knows he's going to do it/ is at the point of doing it and he wants me to realize how serious this all is.
I agree. I just didn't want to buttress an expectation. Nothing wrong with having a goal, just dont allow that expectation to creep in.
I wonder if hes just going over his next steps out loud, you know?
I agree that it went well. I wonder what kind of fallout there will be when he does break it off. Im sure that emotionally, it will be a difficult time for him. But its just part of something that needs to happen on your path!
GIMA and Blue - yep, agree wholeheartedly. The break-up will suck for all of us but esp. for the two of them.
In his initial salvo for the R talk, he said that if any of his friends had gone through what he'd gone through and was considering getting back together with his wife, H would advise them against it. Then he told me that he'd been done with me.
I just nodded quietly and kept listening. There were a few stings for me in that convo, but nothing I didn't already know, ya know? And at least so far, he's been easier on me than I have been on myself. Having come through the things *I've* said to me over all of this, what he's got to say seems mild by comparison.
Third night in the master bed.
Looks like I am off the couch. He stayed up very late trying to get his game ready to launch today so there was very minimal cuddling when he came to bed.
It's possible I may end up back there for a night or three as he processes the breakup with OW (whenever that happens). Either way, I gotta tell you how much nicer it is sleeping in a real bed and having my H warm next to me.
H is off to work, having given me access to the new game before he left. He was up til 3, so either he's blotto tired or he's in a bit of a pullback, or both. They'd all be understandable given the sitch.
I'll handle it lightly - be there if he wants/needs emotional support but genreally giving him space and letting him come to me.
Since the mini R-talk, he has been much freer with small signs of affection and future statements. It's very reassuring.
I did, however, have a whiff of WAWness as I settled into the master bed to read before I went to sleep. Since we didn't talk about any of my concerns in the R talk, they remain unacknowledged and unresolved. I am very willing to wait and be patient, but in the moment, they niggled a bit. In part, the niggle was due to being alone in the bed while H was on his computer and not knowing how soon he'd come to bed, how I would be treated when he did, etc. - very much a replay of the old tapes. There was a hint of feeling trapped in an R where everything has been labeled as "My Fault".
I acknowledged the feelings and let go of them. They're normal and they will pass. Patience. We'll get to my stuff eventually.
Wow, this is hard but you have come so far. Keep focusing on the positive. He is at least considering breaking up with the OW, if not planning out loud how to do it. He acknowledged your changes. He thanked you. He felt heard.
I hear the EXACT SAME THING from my H - that I've hurt him through blame and I want to say well he's hurt me through blame too but I don't. If we want them to continue to take baby steps, they need to feel safe. That means feeling heard and validated. That means no pressure, letting them make their decisions on their own. They have to know inside themselves they want to be with us, not that they are coming back out of any pressure or input from us. You handled this beautifully. Yes, it feels like a post-car-crash trauma afterward. You took care of yourself and did everything you could do. He's moving toward you and you are letting him do it on his own time frame.
I think the pullback he's exhibiting is natural. He is pulling back to process his own feelings. You need him to do this so he is sure he wants the R with you. You need him to come to you. Great job!
these are all positives. You are farther down the road than a lot of us, and than you ever were before. Keep that in mind!
Oh yeah, more ponderings from the big bed...
As I settled in, I had the feeling of being back where I belonged, of taking my rightful place. It wasn't an altogether positive feeling because I was so very cognizant of the several years of pain - for H, too - that led up to it. I mean, I wouldn't have needed to get 'back' there if I hadn't left in the first place. Regret, remorse, a tinge of guilt. Yes, I know it wasn't all my fault but I can't process his guilt or remorse, only my own.
Interesting that in victory, I did not feel particularly triumphant.
Dia (hugs) having had a very surprising weekend for me, I want to thank you, your journal has been a bit of an inspiration for me, not only because your sassy, bewitching little self has/is over time getting your H to see you as a considerable asset, but the fact that the whole way through it you are so willing to accept his feelings/thoughts/attitude about OW are valid, and not just because the books tell us too. I know at some point I am going to be hearing things about me which I am going to find extremely hard, but have to accept with a hearing heart not a "but it was you who caused all this mess" no matter who has done what it takes two to make a mess of it, and two to make it whole! Im not sure I have really said what I mean so really hope you are not offended!
[quote=Dia]
So that leaves me with the following (renumbered):
1) Initiates a kiss, even if on the cheek.
2) Invites or allows me to sleep in the Master bed with him.
and I'll add two more..
3) Offers me space in the Master closet.
4) Says "I love you" to me.
Time for a review of the signs.
1) Initiates a kiss, any location - CHECK (lots of them, but fairly chaste ones on the cheek, shoulder, etc)
2) Master Bed - CHECK (When I set this one, I meant 'at all', and now I'm there pretty much permanently.)
----------------------------
So here's the new list, in no particular order.
1) Breaks up with OW.
2) Romantic kiss on the mouth.
3) Says, "I love you."
4) Space in Master closet.
5) Puts his wedding ring back on.
Hi, LR,
I'll have to cruise by your place and read up a bit! Thanks for the thanks.
If it had been OW1, I'd have had to throw down and give ultimatums about her. But OW2 is a bit different. H started that R at a point in the sep where we both thought this was all done. I think we knew that 'done' wasn't what we wanted, but we were both trying to play the hand we'd been dealt. In that light, it made it much easier to be tolerant, respectful and compassionate about his R with her. Doesn't mean I liked it! And it doesn't mean that it didn't/doesn't hurt. It was both easier and harder to deal with that if it had been OW1.
Back to the "blame" issue = who is "at fault" for hurting whom...
check out MWD on this subject - may help you?
http://www.facebook.com/DivorceBusting#/DivorceBusting?v=app_23798139265
Dia,
I just found your thread yesterday and I don't have a thread of my own yet..........please forgive my interruption of the current discussion......but I noted something in the background you gave on your initial post that mirrors what my H did when he left (1 year ago) and I am hoping that you can give me some insight into his thought process. My H left in anger, was very single-minded (never open to working on marriage, no OM or OW involved) and filed for D within 3 months. He said I worked too much (I did), he felt abandoned and it reminded him of his childhood with alcoholic mother and absentee father. Around the same time that H filed a miracle happened: I was offered a job with 20 hr/wk less work and more income, so I took it. After I switched jobs H began to talk to me (2/09) and since then we have moved into friendship stage, almost a stone's throw from romance (we've shared some nice informal visits/drinks on the patio at my house, friendly lip kisses and a little flirtation), but I can't crack his wall to get to the next stage. D will be final in 6 weeks if H doesn't request a delay. No sign of that happening. I've worked with a fabulous DB coach for the past year and it is only because of Jody and advice from this board that I've gotten this far with H.
You stated in your background that after the "initial anger-fueled filing" you "continued the process not because (you) wanted to but because there was so much pressure from so many people....to finalize it". What motivated you to get past that peer pressure to change your mind about the D? Did you actually delay finalizing your D? or did the paperwork just get so bogged down that the process was forced to slow down? Do you have any ideas for how H could "save face" if he was open to slowing things down? You may have some thoughts on this from your own experience with your H too.
Again, sorry to highjack but any thoughts you or someone else might have would be appreciated.
Thanks
GAG
Hi Dia
If you have a moment at all today, could you possible hop over to me and have a look at my last post as I had a DB session this morning. I would like your input on changing some dynamics at home and how to make my H feel more needed and as though he has a place at home. It will make sense when you read my last post.
Thanks heaps Dia
Hi Dia,
I haven't posted to you before, but I have been following your thread. It is going to be hard to get past all the hurt that he has built up. But I agree with the others that the fact that he is talking about it means he is thinking about letting it go. It is all a trust issue. To have trust you have to earn trust. So keep doing what you are doing, because it is definately working. But there is one thing missing from your list of goals....
Dia,
I'm going through your entire thread again cause I caught it about half the way through the first time. Not sure what your dissertation is about but if it is about relationships you have a good start:-)
I just read the room devoid of o2 analogy and have to say it is brilliant and should be mandatory reading for all LBS. I'd add that the hose doesn't have to be another person it could be hope of a new (fill in the blank). I have never read anything so insightful. After reading I was filled with empathy towards my spouse like I've have't felt in years.
Good luck over the next couple of days. I have a feeling its going to be a rough weekend once your H breaks it off with OW. I can imagine he is going through a huge array of emotions.
Hi, folks,
Just a drive by tonight. I'm working late and may not get back to the forum until tomorrow morning. I will check in on everyone's sitches then!
Cheers,
Dia
Looking forward to it - thanks so much for your support today!!!
Hi, GAG,
Thanks for stopping in. H and I did our own paperwork - no lawyers. So it was all on me to get things filed and sent back. Our papers got kicked back several times for various reasons, so I had ample opportunity to stall by simply not fixing the problems with the papers when they would come back.
During this time, I had started asking H if he wanted to reconcile, and he kept saying No, the D was 'for the best', etc. On the last round with the papers, I told him I would submit them again even tho I didn't want to, but if they got kicked back again, I wasn't going to re-file because it meant the universe didn't want us to get divorced. And that's where we are now - they got kicked back again.
Saving face - if you have lawyers involved, I think the only thing you can do as ask for a stay to do MC, or you can ask for a hearing and when the judge asks if you think the M is irretrievably broken, you say No, you'd like to do MC or Retro. Then the judge might order it.
Are things too dicey in your sitch for you to straight out ask your H for a little more time?
Hi Dia,
I haven't posted to you before, but I have been following your thread. It is going to be hard to get past all the hurt that he has built up. But I agree with the others that the fact that he is talking about it means he is thinking about letting it go. It is all a trust issue. To have trust you have to earn trust. So keep doing what you are doing, because it is definately working. But there is one thing missing from your list of goals....
Hmmm, what's missing? If you mean LM, I left it off on purpose because kissing comes first.
Call from H just now...
FIL, SIL and baby are arriving today and staying thru Friday. This is going to turn several things all caddy-wumpus.
1) H may not be comfortable sleeping in the same bed with me in front of FIL and SIL. Acid test for H.
2) Got no clue how we're going to accommodate everyone since we have no functional guest room at present.
3) Expect major pullback from H as he's not going to want his cake-eating to be seen by his family.
4) No clue how I'm going to be able to work either since I work out of a home office.
A warning, Gentle Reader - I'm about to wander into some intimate territory. Not sure what the board tolerance on this is like, so I'll be direct, but reasonably delicate. If that's TMI for you, best to move along and these are not the droids you're looking for.
H and I continue to take tiny baby steps forward in bed. H is holding the line at not kissing me on the mouth and not having intercourse, but we are petting a bit more each night. I am holding the line at keeping control of my own climaxes. I'm just not comfortable giving that to him under current state. (I would get too vulnerable, plus I'm not sure I like the comfort level HE might have if he thinks that reasonably satisfying me sexually is a fair compromise for not breaking it off with OW.) Last night, however, I let him watch after I backed him off and took matters into my own hands. I was a tad worried he'd see that as rejection (i.e. him doing it 'wrong'), but he enjoyed the show regardless.
Why am I telling you this, you wonder? Well, other people's threads have been immensely helpful to me in getting through various dynamics, especially those involving the ol' relationship push-pull dance. My intent here is to help others by showing them what to expect when things get to this area. But if folks object to the level of detail, let me know and I'll draw the curtain over it.
So afterwards, I got very cuddly-clingy, which he *loved* and encouraged. There were some lovely, soft words of welcome and come hither. I had to bite my tongue to keep the ILYs from flowing. He also responded very well to the line of nips and kisses on his throat and earlobe - so well that he stopped me.
I am not finding this at all frustrating on a physical level. I don't mind the start-stop stuff physically, and yes, we are making progress. Emotionally, though, I'm tired of the walls and limitations. It's the love and commitment I want. The sexual aspect is just icing on the proverbial cake.
Patience.
Patience.
Patience.
Hi Dia
I have been following your thread. That last post you made is spot on.
While I do not have your control over your own desires, i have found myself in the same situation as you even though i am a male.
The first time my wife and I ML, it was bitter sweet. She started crying in the middle of it, saying that she was weak and just gave in. I was patient with her and let her know that i was there and hurting just as much as she was. It was intense for me, but in my mind I thought the more intimate we were the closer we would get. My words helped and we continued to ML. But over the course of the next few weeks she started retreating emotionally.
However this morning it came to fruition again and we ended up making love, for a brief while before the kid walked in.
The strange part is that before the kid walked in i whispered in her ear, "what are you thinking about" and she told me that we shouldn't be doing this but it felt too good to stop. I told her several times i would be more than happy to stop and attempted to only to have her pull me back.
It is strange the things, we allow ourselves to do and then regret it after. Before I left for work, I made sure that I kissed her as gently and passionatley as possible and she reciprocated. This to me doesn't seem like regret.
Its the love and commitment i want too, but dont you think that love making is also part of the cake and not just the icing on it?
Well, yes, I *do* want a marriage with plenty of love-making in it, so I suppose it is part of the cake. But I'm not willing to have the sex part without the love part. It's the ol' male/female thing, maybe?
Making love makes a man feel close, but a woman needs to feel close before she can make love?
Part of me wanted to give in to him last night thinking it would make him feel closer to me, but I'm not willing to be that tactical with things involving my own boundaries. Not at present, anyway.
That is a keen observation. I wonder if that is why she started crying the first time.
She said something that almost stung me but after a second it made me realize what she was saying.
She said, she caves to me too easily. Then she said its a funny thing how she caves to her own husband and continued to hug me.
I want her to want me too, but I am not sure if i should go you route Dia.
Hmmm, spell it out for me - what is 'my route'?
Though in your sitch, what you are doing seems to be working - so keep doing it. Also, remember that there is an OW in my sitch. I might be a lot less self-protective if there weren't. I am a sexual abuse/assault survivor, and while all of that is ancient history I have to be careful of a few triggers or I suffer for it.
Not letting someone have unbridled access to my heart and body unless I'm 100% safe is a big-deal boundary thing for me. And with OW in the picture, I am not 100% safe.
YMMV
And just FYI - sometimes crying during love-making is just catharsis. It may not always have to do with the situation immediately at hand. Sex for many is about bringing down walls and barriers. Sometimes when those come down, it's hard to predict what will slip out.
When it's really intensely good, sometimes I cry. And when I do, H has been very, very good about holding me, comforting me and not taking it personally. On the upside, there are other times when its intensely good that I am overcome with deep laughter/giggles. He tends to prefer that response, at least after he established long ago that I was not laughing at *him.*
Since I'm in a self-revelatory mood today, I'll tell you that the reason I didn't let him finish things last night is that I knew I would cry. Neither one of us was ready for that.
Dia you have to deal with the ML aspect in which ever way you see fit hun! Having been there and got the tshirt so to speak at the weekend, I can only say that is was alright because it was what both of us wanted, it all started off with lots of kissing, probably more than would have been the norm! It was muted that was this the right direction to go in and my only objection was that it wasnt a "mans needs" the most hurtful thing H has ever said to me on our last ML moment before he left, his reply was "not mans needs but ML" only then was it acceptable. I used to say I'd never accept used goods, one thing dear to me is the fact that we have only ever been each others partners, but then it occurred to me that if that was the case it would be highly unlikely I'd even know! I totally understand you having boundaries and that H cant cross them until you feel happy about it, I cant say I wouldnt do what happened again last weekend but there is definitely not going to be any cake eating!
Hmmm. Well, I did stumble across the right thread. And ML was what I was referring to. so you have answered my question. And I admire your answer to underdog; I agree about the cathartic laughing and crying. Building intimacy, both emotional and sexual is good. I didn't know about the abuse thing. Whatever works for the two of you. There's something wonderful about "old home week" sex, if you know what I mean. It's as they say, like riding a bicycle.
Thanks for the answer Dia. I had no idea about your past. I am so sorry that happened to you.
I don't have any problems with good sex or even making love, but when my wife is into it one day, and then the next day says she only did it cuz she was lonely, scared, remorseful, comforted, then it gets really confusing and sticky.
l
Yep, I hear you on the sticky part.
Maybe next time you can stroke her chin, look into her eyes and ask her if it's really love-making she wants, or does she just need to be held and comforted? If she picks the latter, do that for her (if you can).
In addition to making you look like a great guy, this puts it on her to communicate her needs clearly. If she doesn't, she can't hold it over you later. I'm not sayin' she won't try, mind you, but if she does it won't hold water.
Hmmm, spell it out for me - what is 'my route'?
Though in your sitch, what you are doing seems to be working - so keep doing it. Also, remember that there is an OW in my sitch. I might be a lot less self-protective if there weren't. I am a sexual abuse/assault survivor, and while all of that is ancient history I have to be careful of a few triggers or I suffer for it.
Not letting someone have unbridled access to my heart and body unless I'm 100% safe is a big-deal boundary thing for me. And with OW in the picture, I am not 100% safe.
YMMV
I'm a similar survivor. I've been tempted to give him sex in an attempt for love (past pattern). Best to hold firm on our own safety boundaries. you're doing great.
I don't have any problems with good sex or even making love, but when my wife is into it one day, and then the next day says she only did it cuz she was lonely, scared, remorseful, comforted, then it gets really confusing and sticky.
Don't take what she says too seriously. the point is she wants sex, and she wants it with you. Sex with you calms whatever is bothering her. Isn't that a good thing? I could say I only ate the cheesecake because I was bored and depressed. But truthfully, I ate the cheesecake because it was sinfully delicious!
I don't have any problems with good sex or even making love, but when my wife is into it one day, and then the next day says she only did it cuz she was lonely, scared, remorseful, comforted, then it gets really confusing and sticky.
Don't take what she says too seriously. the point is she wants sex, and she wants it with you. Sex with you calms whatever is bothering her. Isn't that a good thing? I could say I only ate the cheesecake because I was bored and depressed. But truthfully, I ate the cheesecake because it was sinfully delicious!
I stopped having sex with H because he was consistently remorseful and weird after. It is an awful feeling and not worth it IMO.
And cheesecake tastes good but is not good when you're on a diet. Makes you feel bad and makes your a** bigger.
I don't think it helps the R. If the WAS wants distance and feels they can't get it, it just reinforces those negative feelings. Plus, how YOU feel about it is important too. I hated feeling like his drug or his guilty indulgence.
Just got a text from H about the launch of his game. A split second later, a 2nd text came in labelling the first a 'mistell!.'
You know right where my head went - he was texting HER. 'Cept in all likelihood, he wasn't. She doesn't game, and unless he was poking buttons in his call history instead of his alpha listing, we're nowhere near each other in the list.
Now, mistells tend to strike fear into the hearts of those romantically involved where they shouldn't be, so even if he wasn't texting her, I'd guess he got a good adrenaline jolt out of the it - a That Would Be Bad harbinger.
Hmmm.
We'll see how he is when he comes home tonight with that added to family incoming added to our activities last night.
Wow Dia, I am not at that level yet, there has been experimenting with different things of late between H and I but I haven't done that yet.
But for me for now that is all over with until H decides if he is going to return or not.
Got a huge rib-cracker of a hug when H got home. Gee, guess I did something right??
<grin>
lucky lucky Dia.
Hope tonight is hot and steamy too!
Hi Dia! You are great, I love that your thread has become such a magnet for people!
Let us know how its going with the extra bodies in the house, dont get pissed at the house guests! Do you think that you will sort of follow your H's lead as far as the behavior around his family goes? I hope that he can hold his head high and be honest with his family about whats happening with his family (you and kidlet). But its so hard to tell!
So, we managed to find beds for everyone including giving SIL and baby our bed. H and I slept on the pullout bed in the LR, together and with no qualms from H. He was exhausted, having been up until 3 am and then 1 am the previous two nights. There was no 'hot and steamy' but lots of nice spooning and falling asleep in each other's arms (at least until he stole all the blankets!)
H was also extremely complimentary of the fish tacos I'd made, which were a hit with the rest of the family as well. Tonight is a spicy/sweet pork roast with rosemary potatoes.
It's going quite well so far.
Oh, a few other notes:
1) It was entirely obvious looking at pillows and such that H and I had been sharing the big bed.
2) My anniversary ccard is prominently displayed in the clean, organized kitchen.
3) My artwork is back up on the walls.
4) H hugs me and is affectionate with me.
5) There's a picture of me up in kidlet's new room and some pics of OW are conspicuously missing.
It's pretty impossible for the in-laws to miss what's going on.
this is so perfect! Now he doesn't have to worry about what to tell them. Man, you are just plowing down the obstacles!
Dia:
If there's ever a time to say this to someone, it's now.
Keep doing exactly what you're doing!!!!
PS - Last night as I was preparing one of H's favorite dinners, and was all done up for his return home from work, had the home organized, etc... I felt a little DiaISH! LOL H comes in smiling, hugging and kissing hello, and I noticed he used a tone of voice reserved for me, thanking me for the dinner, fixing his computer, etc...
Pork roast recipe, for anyone who's interested:
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sunny...cipe/index.htmlI'll be toning down the red pepper flakes since there are kids on the guest list, but I can't wait to taste this.
Dia
REally good news for you. Whatever you are doing keep it up.
The only thing i am concerned with is that you stated your needs aren't getting met now and that there will be time for that later. Not sure what that means to you, but to me it means that you are repressing your own needs in exchange for this. Be careful with that as it is antigaling.
Other than that good good job.
As for me, i have spent the last 3 days at the wife's house. SHe has been happy with me all those days. Today however i am sleeping at my sister's house as well as tomorrow.
I really hope i am strong enough to avoid thinking paranoid thoughts.
Dia good luck to you.
Great to read that things are still progressing in the right direction, Dia. H is passing the tests!
Cas
Hi Dia
I am so happy for the results that you are getting, it is so heartening to see a R coming back together with such obvious love.
Maybe not the best meal I've ever had, but by far the best meal I've ever made. Wow. That recipe is a keeper. I posted a link to it a few posts back if anybody wants it.
I subbed cayenne for the red pepper flakes and cut the amount in half. I also subbed balsamic for the red wine vinegar and used the juice from fresh oranges. The sauce was good enough to go on ice cream if you like complex flavors.
And don't wimp out on the cast iron skillet. I increased the recipe by 50% to feed 6 (and there's none left!) so I had to brown the meat in the skillet, then transfer half into a glass baking dish and distribute the veggies. The skillet half tasted better than the baking dish half, though both were good. And don't omit the sauce, either - it's good enough to eat on a spoon!
I downloaded the recipe Dia and have printed it off.
Well Dia
It is so good to see a story going in the right direction! I hope it continues for you and everything ends up better for the both of you.
Oh, a few other notes:
1) It was entirely obvious looking at pillows and such that H and I had been sharing the big bed.
2) My anniversary ccard is prominently displayed in the clean, organized kitchen.
3) My artwork is back up on the walls.
4) H hugs me and is affectionate with me.
5) There's a picture of me up in kidlet's new room and some pics of OW are conspicuously missing.
It's pretty impossible for the in-laws to miss what's going on.
All looks very good. Oh, and I love fish tacos. We have a great mexican place near our house that has the best ones I have had. Getting hungry just thinking about them.
Hi Dia.
I have to say, that the very best way not to have to explain anything to the relatives is just how you are doing it. No words. Just obvious changes. And I am so glad it is going smoothly with your H's comfort level also.
I may run away from home this weekend. Its my sister's b-day tomorrow and I'm thinking about going down to NC.
Patience, patience.
And that "show" was hot. You never need worry about offending me with details like that. While ML will come along when you are 100% safe, just knowing it is there and possible is definitely weighing on the man's mind.
Frankly, I don't think he stands a chance against our Dia!
is definitely weighing on the man's mind.
Frankly, I don't think he stands a chance against our Dia!
Hell, it's weighing on
my mind after reading it and I've never even seen Dia! Ha Ha.
Us men are easy!
Hell, it's weighing on
my mind after reading it and I've never even seen Dia! Ha Ha.
Us men are easy!
ROFL!!
Thanks Wifey and EB!
And <drumroll> I got my first kiss on the lips this morning. Two of them. Sweet, soft and experimental, but there they were.
As for the show, afterwards H remarked that if this dissertation thing didn't work out, I should consider taking that on the road.
I told him he'd get tired lugging around all those quarters.
Still in the "big bed" last night? Is it official or is it "guest status"?
Nope, I'm in the big bed, apparently for good.
is definitely weighing on the man's mind.
Frankly, I don't think he stands a chance against our Dia!
Hell, it's weighing on
my mind after reading it and I've never even seen Dia! Ha Ha.
Us men are easy!
hey--it's weighing on my mind, and I'm not even a man!! yikes!!
Now I've got that to add to my mental picture? You guys are killing me!
Well, I didn't mean it quite like that ! Just that the image Dia described was, ummm, something I could relate to!
Well, I didn't mean it quite like that ! Just that the image Dia described was, ummm, something I could relate to!
I can imagine it however I want
Ha Ha
ROFLOL!! Ok, now you guys are killing ME!!
I work from home, and I made the mistake of checking my thread while I was feeling bored on a conference call...
At least I didn't ask you guys what you're wearing!
I love making someone laugh on a conference call
Hahahahaha Hey, gives new meaning to Energizer Bunny's name!
Shall we just start calling him "Boom-Boom'?
I picked that because I have been going through this for what seems like forever and I'm "still going."
I'm just bored today and having a little fun.
Lol thanks for making me smile after a bit of a grotty day! Well done for getting permanant "big bed" status! and sweet kisses to boot a definite bonus I'd say.. Keep going Dia reckon his nearly yours!
Hi Dia
You are definitely nearly there, not many more steps now before ..... well you know and this time you won't be the only performer in the show.
Back to the signs...
Kiss on the mouth - CHECK!
Replaced by - Make out like teenagers!
H came home tired an vulnerable, very different from how he left the house today. In fact, looking at his eyes, he almost looked like he'd been crying. He only copped to being 'tired' though, and I didn't press.
And yes, I made the obvious speculation (internally), but my position on that is that until it is explicitly stated that she's gone, she's still around.
The issue of the missing toys came up yesterday, tho. SIL's baby wanted to play with them and H asked if I knew where the 'boxes of blocks had gone'.
Dia: There's one in your room. (those are kidlet's) And there were some others I put under the house.
Dia,
Been trying to catch up after a while off the boards. Sounds like things are progressing well. Good for you girl!
What did I miss? Was there some kind of "show?" Details, people! I want details!
Maybe its a good thing that you have family visiting, I think that it will help you both keep busy while he processes his grief over his R with the OW ending, if thats even what happened! Good for you Dia!
This board kind of reminds me of high school.
"Do you think he/she likes me?"
"Did you kiss him/her yet?"
"Did you sleep in his/her bed?"
"When are you going to go 'all the way'?"
And even better, now in your sitch you're on the fold out couch with his family in the house.
"Do you think his Mom knows?"
...love those high school memories
LOL!!
And let's not forget the "Is he going to ask me out?" dance.
Dia: Are you doing anything fun this weekend?
H: I don't know yet. How about you?
Dia: Oh, I don't have any plans yet. I'm rather at loose ends. <expectant look>
H: Oh, me either.
Dia: Have you seen that new movie?
H: No, I haven't.
Dia: My friends said it was really good. It's playing this weekend. <even bigger expectant look>
H(oblivious): Yeah, my friends said it was good, too.
Dia: <stares at him> You know, I just remembered. I'm busy ALL weekend. <flounces off>
H (completely flummoxed): Huh?? What was that about?
(completely fictional, of course)
And then there's the ever-popular laying your hand ever so temptingly in the middle of the car seat whilst looking the other way hoping he'll take it.
And then there's the ever-popular laying your hand ever so temptingly in the middle of the car seat whilst looking the other way hoping he'll take it.
WOW. I didn't realize how much of the same script all of us really are following. I have done EXACTLY this (her in place of him). There were a couple of times that she's picked it up.
Yesterday I saw her commenting all over my Facebook page. That really seemed like a high school thing to get excited about.
After my W moves out next month I need to send her a note "Do you like me? Check Y or N."
Here's another.
We had a good night a couple of days ago.
High school like follow up:
Me: Do I call her? How long do I wait? What would I say? If I don't call, will she think I don't like her still? If I do call, will I seem over anxious? Should I ask her friend if she talks about me?
Ha Ha.
LOL! But you know - some of that high school flirting stuff makes us feel young, vibrant and attractive/attracted again, so more power to it.
H and I have a 'date' on Saturday. <beaming grin>
Weds or Thurs I asked SIL and FIL if they would mind watching kidlet for a few hours in the event that H and I wanted to go out. They said sure, that would be fine.
Yesterday morning, I sent H an email saying that with so many babysitters in the house, would he like to go out Friday or Saturday? The whole ^%$#@ day went by with no response. And he didn't mention it during the evening, either. Agonizing!
Then this morning, he said he'd checked with FIL and SIL and they would watch kidlet for us. He suggested poking around downtown during the day, maybe going to a museum instead of dinner to keep costs down. I said sure, that sounded great.
H: Good. It's a date. (emphasis on 'date')
<return to HS mentality>
"OMG, OMG he asked me out. What am I going to wear??!"
And speaking of HS, how bout this one.
"Well, I like HIM and he was totally talking to me yesterday, but today he was talking to HER. So let's all walk by her and not even look at her!"
I literally laughed loud enough just now that my assistant (who sits outside my office) has to wonder what's going on.
I agree, the playful highschool stuff is nice sometimes. That's why a few days ago I went up to my W in "her" room, started kissing her, threw her o nthe bed, and made out with her like we were teenagers.
Got up, walked away, and haven't mentioned it since. I sure have thought about it though
Hmmm, I just got invited to a big, extended family breakfast tomorrow morning. It will be the three of us, FIL, SIL and baby, two of MIL's sisters and their spouses/families.
1) This is going to piss off MIL like crazy.
2) There is going to be so much momentum behind my re-integration into the family that MIL's not going to be able to do anything about it without looking like a complete witch/idiot
in front of her family.
3) Even better, MIL's fave sister is apparently 'dating' her ex-H and bringing him to the breakfast. Dating with sleepovers, that is.
I'm so happy for you!
Orich, you, Tristan. There's a lot of positive stuff floating around here lately.
LMFAO> you people are cracking me up. Because it's so true. I often think of our sitches like "Summer Nights" from GREASE. (Yes, I'm an actress).
[Pink Ladies]
Tell me more, tell me more
[Frenchy]
Was it love at first sight?
[Thunderbirds]
Tell me more, tell me more
[Kenickie]
Did she put up a fight?
[Everyone]
Uh-huh-uh-huh-uh-huh-uh-huh
[Danny]
Took her bowling in the arcade
[Sandy]
We went strolling, drank lemonade
[Danny]
We made out under the dock
[Sandy]
We stayed out 'till ten o'clock
[Both]
Summer fling, don't mean a thing, but uh-oh those summer nights
There...we have a team song!
We should all become writers for Soap Operas.
Wow, and I was *totally* Sandra Dee in HS. Very good-girl, very goody-two-shoes, hated by many for aceing too many tests and breaking the curve, etc.
The popular girls loathed me, so I hung with the drama geeks, debate team and band/choir crowd. I found out later that several guys had crushes on me but were too intimidated by the intellect to make any moves.
Their loss.
Hmmm...I'd have to say I was more of a Michael from Grease 2 (unkown biker guy).
I really was cool...just nobody knew it
Last night was H's movie night at some friends' house. He took them back their vaccuum cleaner with my thanks. I've never been invited to this do, but it hasn't bothered me. H was very apologetic about going, and thankful for my 'indulgence.' I shooed him out the door saying that friends and a social life were both good things that I wanted him to have. (True!)
Given how tired he seemed before he left, I expected him to be at the end of his rope by the time he got home, which was pretty much true. I had the bed all pulled out and made up. He gave me a pumpkin empanada that the female half of the couple had made, then went to read to kidlet.
There was very brief chit chat before we snuggled down into the pull-out bed and went to sleep. W/o going into details, another little milestone fell by the wayside bedroom-wise, though it had the feel of simple comfort-seeking rather than passion - and that's just fine. There were also reciprocal tushie squeezes this week, with sort of a playful 'Don't let the guests see!' air to them.
The banter continues, though there hasn't been much opportunity for it with as full of a house as we have.
@ Tristan
Hey, there,
Apologies for addressing you here instead of in your own thread, but I know you lurk so here goes.
Have you noticed that your thread seems to have a general lack of female voices in it? Watching your thread for awhile, it seems that when the women contribute, they often (not always) get the rough side of someone else's tongue. After a few go-rounds of that, they stop posting, though I'd bet they still read. Please don't take it personally because you're not the one doing it.
Here's my point: If your thread dwindles down to only two or three voices, you may be getting unintentional tunnel vision in terms of advice, insights, POVs, etc. If everything is working for you, that's absolutely fine and dandy. But in particular, if you want a female's POV, you'll probably need to go out of your way to get one as your thread (not *you*, your thread) doesn't seem to be a friendly place for a woman to express herself.
Tuck that in the back of your head somewhere and feel free to ask here if you ever need me.
Cheers,
Dia
Call from H just now...
FIL, SIL and baby are arriving today and staying thru Friday. This is going to turn several things all caddy-wumpus.
1) H may not be comfortable sleeping in the same bed with me in front of FIL and SIL. Acid test for H.
2) Got no clue how we're going to accommodate everyone since we have no functional guest room at present.
3) Expect major pullback from H as he's not going to want his cake-eating to be seen by his family.
4) No clue how I'm going to be able to work either since I work out of a home office.
A warning, Gentle Reader - I'm about to wander into some intimate territory. Not sure what the board tolerance on this is like, so I'll be direct, but reasonably delicate. If that's TMI for you, best to move along and these are not the droids you're looking for.
H and I continue to take tiny baby steps forward in bed. H is holding the line at not kissing me on the mouth and not having intercourse, but we are petting a bit more each night. I am holding the line at keeping control of my own climaxes. I'm just not comfortable giving that to him under current state. (I would get too vulnerable, plus I'm not sure I like the comfort level HE might have if he thinks that reasonably satisfying me sexually is a fair compromise for not breaking it off with OW.) Last night, however, I let him watch after I backed him off and took matters into my own hands. I was a tad worried he'd see that as rejection (i.e. him doing it 'wrong'), but he enjoyed the show regardless.
Why am I telling you this, you wonder? Well, other people's threads have been immensely helpful to me in getting through various dynamics, especially those involving the ol' relationship push-pull dance. My intent here is to help others by showing them what to expect when things get to this area. But if folks object to the level of detail, let me know and I'll draw the curtain over it.
So afterwards, I got very cuddly-clingy, which he *loved* and encouraged. There were some lovely, soft words of welcome and come hither. I had to bite my tongue to keep the ILYs from flowing. He also responded very well to the line of nips and kisses on his throat and earlobe - so well that he stopped me.
I am not finding this at all frustrating on a physical level. I don't mind the start-stop stuff physically, and yes, we are making progress. Emotionally, though, I'm tired of the walls and limitations. It's the love and commitment I want. The sexual aspect is just icing on the proverbial cake.
Patience.
Patience.
Patience.
A couple of people have asked me about this, so I'm re-posting.
<blush>
You're starting this again?
I am not reading this again.
Meany!
Hey, Hope and Fallgirl asked for it!!
I'm just payin' it forward.
hey dia.
Did your hubby ever tell you that in order to start over you need to get a divorce?
If so what is that about?
Nope, H has never said that. Tho from what I gather, some people want a firm ending before beginning anew. For me, 2 yrs separation was enough of an ending, though I can certainly identify and agree with the folks who say that we never got closure.
I just happened to realize that I didn't *want* that particular type of closure while there was still time enough to do something about it.
BTW - underdog? If that's what your W is saying, maybe you could offer to do a legal sep instead?
Dia, I have to say I like your style, your...mojo..if you will.
I dedicate this happy hour song to you...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5UkJOahbr4&feature=related
Dia, I have to say I like your style, your...mojo..if you will.
Me too!
Bunny
@ Tristan
Hey, there,
Apologies for addressing you here instead of in your own thread, but I know you lurk so here goes.
Have you noticed that your thread seems to have a general lack of female voices in it? Watching your thread for awhile, it seems that when the women contribute, they often (not always) get the rough side of someone else's tongue. After a few go-rounds of that, they stop posting, though I'd bet they still read. Please don't take it personally because you're not the one doing it.
Here's my point: If your thread dwindles down to only two or three voices, you may be getting unintentional tunnel vision in terms of advice, insights, POVs, etc. If everything is working for you, that's absolutely fine and dandy. But in particular, if you want a female's POV, you'll probably need to go out of your way to get one as your thread (not *you*, your thread) doesn't seem to be a friendly place for a woman to express herself.
Tuck that in the back of your head somewhere and feel free to ask here if you ever need me.
Cheers,
Dia
So what's wrong with my thread Dia? I feel like a leper.
Dia:
ALRIGHT NOW! Enough of that visual! LOLOLOL
So, since that post, I've got the mirror off of the dresser... practicing, ya know? I've purchased some new "How to...." books, etc... Workin' on the angles and such...
If I have to read it one more time, God Knows what the hell is going to go on here!
LOL
----
Seriously, you rock. Congrats on the date! I'm making the pork roast on Sunday!
Maybe someday I can be your back-up act. She cooks, she organizes, she wears bells, she "acts"...!! LOL
I'll stick to my own career, though. I happen to be good at that!
C-Bart - I'll come check out your sitch!
Tristan - I agree w/Tristan. Your thread smells like someone spilled their Axe body wash all over! We're here for ya!
Ha! Collective family foot in mouth moment.
SIL's toddler is running around like she's had a late nap and a sugar high. FIL slipped and called the baby by OW's name right in front of all of us. Poor SIL stepped in and tried to make it better, saying that 'everyone says the baby just looks like an "OW-name." I just laughed and nodded. (Cuz frankly, Scarlett, my dear, as long as I've got my man, I don't give a ____.)
Stuff like that is gonna happen; no big deal.
Harder will be when/if H ever slips and calls me by OW's name. He did that once several months ago on the phone and I hung straight up on him.
Ouch! Oh, well, your right, they are going to happen. You handled it well! At least they didnt call you her name!
Change of plans...
SIL's hubby called last night. He is at a month-long out of state job training. One of the fellow trainees had H1N1 and may have passed it to pretty much the whole training group. Her H is sick.
So SIL, FIL and baby packed up and headed home last night. SIL was already tired from being a temporary single mother of a toddler, and hearing that her H was sick was too much for her to take.
No big family breakfast either.
So H and I went back to the big bed last night, and let's just say that pent up desire from sleeping in the LR came out in spades. Everybody got to play, nobody had to watch.
No, not your standard LM, but a good time was had by all.
We're having a slow, quiet day today as 6 people in this small house can be terribly taxing for us introverts.
H seems quiet and withdrawn today - pensive, even. Perhaps the two events are unrelated, but I certainly hit a pensive streak after my little show. Now that the glove is on the other hand, so to speak, it seems that he may be having a similar, introspective reaction.
I am giving him space to work it out.
Way to go Dia.
Really happy for you and hope to be joining that phase in the near future.
Is BIL going to go home sick, or is he staying in the hotel til he recovers? Must admit your thread is educational. I never knew there were so many steps to a complete "standard LM". Waiting with bated breath!
Hi, Lotus and GIMA,
BIL is going to ride it out in the hotel, at least for the time being. SIL is distraught b/c she wants to go take care of him or have him come home but that would expose her and baby plus it would mean he'd have to re-do the whole month-long training next month, prolonging their time apart.
As for the step-by-step approach, again, it reminds me of high school, inching toward it bit-by-bit and being comfortable staying at each new plateau for awhile. It may sound strange that I'm not chomping at the bit to 'go all the way' but I feel so loved and cared for that I am content and happy. The journey is so pleasant that I'm just not fussed about the goal.
And, as many here have said, it took a long time to tank our M as badly as we did, so not rushing things is the way to go. I'd rather slow and done right than fast and stuff bites us in the arse later.
Or maybe I just like a man with
Slow Hands.
H seems quiet and withdrawn today - pensive, even. Perhaps the two events are unrelated, but I certainly hit a pensive streak after my little show. Now that the glove is on the other hand, so to speak, it seems that he may be having a similar, introspective reaction.
I am giving him space to work it out.
I have a sense it's about vulnerability, how you both probably promised yourselves at some level that you'd never be vulnerable to the other ever again--at some point in the past--and there's not much more vulnerable than "the little death." So it needs reflection regarding how it feels being vulnerable with each other again.
Space. Definitely.
I think you hit it dead on, Hoosier. That's what I struggled with even though I thought I'd be fine with it, so w/o resorting too badly to mind reading here, it wouldn't be unusual for him to be having some of the same thoughts.
And it's just one more reason why the go-slow approach is good. The snap-back from a no-holds-barred, take no prisoners, roll in the hay might be more than either of us bargained for. This way gives ample time for reflection, trust-building, etc.
you have far more self-discipline than I'd have under the circumstances. well, in all you've been doing, actually, not just the part between the sheets. you're my hero(ine)!
And it's just one more reason why the go-slow approach is good.
Trust me, you are right on the money!
Dia is the only person I know of who has a cheering section for when she goes to bed each night. Nice. But just a little odd!
Dia is the only person I know of who has a cheering section for when she goes to bed each night. Nice. But just a little odd!
I'm living vicariously through Dia.
Dia is the only person I know of who has a cheering section for when she goes to bed each night. Nice. But just a little odd!
I'm living vicariously through Dia.
I think we all are!!!!
many of us are living vicariously thru Dia!!
LOL - you guys are a hoot!!
Lots of snuggles, caresses and soft words last night. The general flirting continues.
Example: I managed to get my hair caught in the zipper for my dress such that I needed help getting free. I called H in to help me, trying to angle toward the light so he could see how I was caught.
Dia: How do you want me?
H: Lean over the bed on your elbows. Now writhe and groan a little... <as his hands are very gently releasing my hair, ending with a playful hip thrust against my rear>
Still no verbal ILYs and no repeat of the kiss on the lips, but I can be patient. Everything about his manner and interaction with me tells me he loves me and wants to be a family again, so I'm believing that and not the lack of certain words.
It's funny, but he is most open when one or both of us are on the edge of sleep. If it's me who's half asleep, I must somehow seem less intimidating that way. And if it's him who's half asleep, the barriers must come down and he becomes very tender toward me.
I am making up a crockpot of chili today. I planned it early in the week, but the weather cooperated fabulously today. It's not cold by anyone's standards except for those of us here in SoCal where we break out the mittens and parkas if it drops below 55 degrees. The weather up until yesterday was sunny and quite warm, very Indian summer. Today, however, we are fogged in hard with mist so thick you can feel the individual droplets on your skin. H calls this "Dia weather".
The colder nights have triggered the autumn cycle in the garden, with many of our plants beginning to die back even though there's still fruit on the vine. We'll get a few more tomatoes, a few more squash and peppers, but soon we'll need to turn things under and plant winter crops - lettuces, onions, carrots, snow peas, etc.
We don't have a fireplace but I wish we did. Weather like today calls for a nice fire. I may invest in a chimnea/firepit for the deck, but if we ever do a significant remodel on this house a fireplace will be in my list of must-haves.
H really loves that I cook. When the onions hit the pan today he wandered in all sniffing and curious. We debated the finer points of css while we talked about de-glazing pans and the relative merits of stainless steel vs. cast iron. It was very... homey. Very settled in and cozy-feeling if that makes any sense.
I have to go out today for an errand or three, so hopefully I'll do it soon enough to pick up the fixins for corn bread. A good chili deserves corn bread with real butter. My culinary roots are a geographical melange. My mother's family is very Southern on her mother's side, with a dash of Pennsylvania and New Orleans on her father's side. My father's people are mid-western Scots-Irish to the core. And me, I waited tables in a Tex-Mex restaurant all through college and have welcomed California influences such as tri-tip, Asian fusion and Napa Valley wines. So despite the fact that is would turn my Southern relatives in their graves, I make a sweet cornbread when I make chili. For me, the sweet balances out the hot in the chili.
Mmmmmmmmmm I love chili. At breakfast this morning, I mentioned making a big pot of it this week since the weather has cooled off. I make several different kinds and my fellas also like sweet corn bread with it, Dia.
Working on my grocery list as soon as I finish up here. Also think I might try that pork roast recipe substituted with a turkey tenderloin.
Funny how your posts have us all waiting to here what happens next, including what's for dinner. Bet you never knew you'd have so many people rooting for you, huh?
Hi Dia
Since my H has decided to come back home and return to the land of the living I have been trying to follow some of your examples such as the conversations you have with your H with a hint of a sexual undertone to them, my H has responded really well to those conversations and I find the more I do it the easier it becomes and it adds a new dimension and some fun into our day. I think I am finding the minx that has been hidden deep within me. Thanks Dia
Love the chilli, could do with some now, it is freezing here at the moment, nothing like what Spring should be.
Cooking! mmm...It would take a strong man to resist the Dia.
We debated the finer points of css...
O'dog likes this.
Nice to wander into another thread on healing!
Very happy to hear all the positive stuff and good tips-hope I can use them myself one day!!
@ Tristan
Hey, there,
Apologies for addressing you here instead of in your own thread, but I know you lurk so here goes.
Have you noticed that your thread seems to have a general lack of female voices in it? Watching your thread for awhile, it seems that when the women contribute, they often (not always) get the rough side of someone else's tongue. After a few go-rounds of that, they stop posting, though I'd bet they still read. Please don't take it personally because you're not the one doing it.
Here's my point: If your thread dwindles down to only two or three voices, you may be getting unintentional tunnel vision in terms of advice, insights, POVs, etc. If everything is working for you, that's absolutely fine and dandy. But in particular, if you want a female's POV, you'll probably need to go out of your way to get one as your thread (not *you*, your thread) doesn't seem to be a friendly place for a woman to express herself.
Tuck that in the back of your head somewhere and feel free to ask here if you ever need me.
Cheers,
Dia
Thank you Dia. I just got this. It was a busy weekend and I didn't have a chance to get on computer without W and girls around (that is a good thing
). And yes, I have recognized that I have received a somewhat slanted point of view. And it is something that has been tucked in the back of my mind. I may write more after I catch up with the other threads.
Thank you.
Hi, everyone,
Thank you for stopping in.
I woke up on a blue funk this morning, not really sure why. Does anyone else ever just wake up ooky for little-to-no apparent reason? Anyway, went through the whole Monday-get-everyone-out-the-door stuff and was chatting with H when we got back from dropping off kidlet.
He commented that he liked me walking with him every morning. That was nice. Over breakfast, I remarked that I'd woken up 'off' - sad and vulnerable. He put his plate down immediately, walked around the bar and hugged me long and tight from behind.
<blink, blink>
Wow.
Last night he was super-appreciative of the chili, the cornbread and the little box I brought from the amazing bakery next to the grocery store. Napoleans and other treats from that store were courtship staples for us. For kidlet, I brought a huge ghost cookie with BOO! written on it in icing.
We didn't get our date on Saturday, though, and Sunday evening once kidlet was in bed, he went back to his computer. (/cue replay of old tapes) I read a book, and within 45 mins, he came to snuggle on the couch with me while reading a book of his own. And we snuggled close in bed, too.
Not sure if it was any of that stuff or just the ol' Limboland shuffle that set me off this morning - or possibly I just woke up funny.
<Shrug> I have a plate full of work today, so I'd best get to it. I need a GAL hit, tho, so I'll try to plan something this week.
Does anyone else ever just wake up ooky for little-to-no apparent reason?
Yep. We've all been through so much that sometimes an under-lying "ooky" pops up Even when things are going well. It happens to me sometimes like that. Sometimes it can hit me just walking through a store. No trigger. Things may even be OK at home (for that minute) but...well...you waid it best with "ooky."
But it sounds like things are going really well and H's response its positive. Remember that while you get through the funk.
We all have mixed feelings here - it is so normal to feel up and down ourselves in the midst of wondering what the heck is going on in our R.
Ooky? Makes me think of the Adam's Family.
*Mysterious and spooky, they're all together ooky...The Adam's Family*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFD7KGBUtKI
Thank you! Shows at 7 and 9. Cd's available in the lobby.
Dont' forget to try the veal...
...of the bells.
My new boss is getting married mid-December, and while updating H on some work-related dates (business dinner Weds. I'll be out til 7 or 8), I gave him the date of her wedding, said we all were invited and there would be other kids kidlet's age there.
His response: Kewl. I've got it calendared.
All brilliant stuff Dia. I think everyone wakes up sometimes just not feeling right, I know I do occasionally, thankfully thought it only last a day and then you are right again.
Glad to hear it's still going smoothly. Congratulations on your ongoing patience and commitment, and of course, your cooking and your sense of fun!
We are so both in the slowly but surely category, I'd love to cook more trouble is I'd eat it lol!
Short version:
Last night: Stealing a line from Puppy, I rocked his floral world.
This morning: Pullback with fear in his eyes, poor thing!
Long version's gonna have to wait. Work is crazy.
This morning: Pullback with fear in his eyes, poor thing!
Typical. Be strong, you're an awesome lady.
Kett's Law 143:
People don't willingly attend weddings with people they wish to detach from romantically.
boral, coral, doral, foral, goral, horal,loral....I'm not getting it!
It was another step forward in the bedroom department, Lotus.
Glad to hear it. Tonight I served Greek food and H asked if I would bellydance later. Never call my bluff!
boral, coral, doral, foral, goral, horal,loral....I'm not getting it!
Well....
I'm not getting it... but I understand!
It was another step forward in the bedroom department, Lotus.
NICE going Dia. you made his head spin. Eeeeww ..did I really just say that. haha
T
Hi, everyone,
Thank you for stopping in.
I woke up on a blue funk this morning, not really sure why. Does anyone else ever just wake up ooky for little-to-no apparent reason?
As the hormonal, peri-menopausal person one week a month, this is pretty much standard fare. : )
Short version:
Last night: Stealing a line from Puppy, I rocked his floral world.
This morning: Pullback with fear in his eyes, poor thing!
Long version's gonna have to wait. Work is crazy.
The last thing I knew you were chilling over chili and corn bread. Ummmm - update, please!
ok, I can steal a few mins for a post....
Last night was awesome!!
Rewind to yesterday afternoon. H got home @ 5:30-ish, but I work til 6. He came into my office and chit-chatted with me. How was your day, etc. He seemed to really *want* to be talking to me. I told a funny story about kidlet coming home from school and objecting strenuously to finding a pair of my pink panties on the bathroom floor. I'd just gotten out of the shower and hadn't had a chance to clean up after myself. I told kidlet to toss my stuff in the hamper if it bugged him. Kidlet came out with many a gagging noise, "No Way!" etc - joking tho. I remarked that I'd been picking HIS underwear up off the floor for a good 7 years, so he could do it at least once for me.
This led to a discussion of showering times and that if I hit the snooze button, I end up taking my shower on my lunch instead of in the morning to accomodate the rest of the family who need the bathroom.
H: Oh, hey, if I'm headed that way and you want to get in instead, just let me know 'cause I can always wait.
Dia (raising a brow): Instead? How about 'with'? <naughty grin>
H: <stammers something about that not actually saving any time
>
The evening
Our date for Saturday got scotched. Then I asked H if he wanted to watch a movie and something happened to that, too. So Monday night, H came up to me and said that I'd mentioned wanting to watch a movie, but there wasn't anything he really wanted to see.
Dia: That's ok. 'Watching a movie' is just code. You know what for, right?
H: For "I want to spend time with you"?
Dia: Yep.
H: Good. Let's do it. I'll shut down my computer right now.
And he joined me on the couch for about 45 mins of talking with no TV, no computer, no distractions save kidlet who was having a rough night getting to sleep.
When we finally got kidlet settled, I slipped into bed and snuggled up to H who had gone to bed dressed in a heavy sweatshirt and sweatpants. After some preliminary, fairly chaste cuddling, I remarked...
Dia: When you wear such heavy clothes to bed, I take it as a 'Don't touch me' message, so I've been respecting that.
The man stood up on the bed, stripped himself absolutely buck nekkid, then snuggled back in. Well, there's only one way to respond to that kind of behavior - you reward it! He got stroked and caressed all over for a very long time. He revelled in it and I enjoyed giving it. After a snugglier interlude, he returned the favor.
Then he finally gave me the unmistakable green light to proceed with the floral arrangement. Gentlemen, in the right mood, we *like* for you knot a fist in our hair and give us directions.
@ Tomato - turned his head?! ROFL!!! Naughty thing!
@ Jeff - Sorry, man. I'd say "I feel ya" but you might take it wrong.
Shall we all sing "Go Down Moses"?
Even better, I leave you with the Juicy Fruit jingle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFr3oapzGc8&feature=PlayList&p=69221E1D995C8020
Ahh, left out a part...
On the couch, I thanked him and told him how good it felt for him to seek me out like that at the end of the day. I said it made me feel like he *wanted* to spend time with me.
H <very softly, tenderly even>: I do.
Hi Dia
I am with you on the "knot of fist in our hair and give us directions". Been doing lots of that lately.
boral, coral, doral, foral, goral, horal,loral....I'm not getting it!
Oh I get it now! I was on my way to the local florist for an explanation. Thanks Lotus. That would have been embarrassing.
boral, coral, doral, foral, goral, horal,loral....I'm not getting it!
Oh I get it now! I was on my way to the local florist for an explanation. Thanks Lotus. That would have been embarrassing.
I dunno - is your florist hot??
Hi Dia
I am with you on the "knot of fist in our hair and give us directions". Been doing lots of that lately.
Woo hoo! Good for you (and H)!
High-fives all around.
Oh and also giving directions, lots of that as well. Definitely high-fives all around.
boral, coral, doral, foral, goral, horal,loral....I'm not getting it!
Oh I get it now! I was on my way to the local florist for an explanation. Thanks Lotus. That would have been embarrassing.
I dunno - is your florist hot??
Doesn't matter anymore. He!! the mail man is looking better every day. :-)
boral, coral, doral, foral, goral, horal,loral....I'm not getting it!
Oh I get it now! I was on my way to the local florist for an explanation. Thanks Lotus. That would have been embarrassing.
Good Lord, it took me a long time to get it too...sheesh.
Congrats Dia. Sounds like fun!
Hey Dia (and girls),
A new poster, goodattitudegirl, just posted her 1st thread. She has a hot date coming up with her H with a looming D date.
Can you guys drop by her thread and see if you could give her some advice on flirting. This thread would seem to be the place to learn that.
Thanks.
Congratulations ladies!!! You two are my heroines.
I'm wondering if you "flirty girls" would have time to give me some advice when you're done smelling the flowers.
I have a "date" with my H in 2 nights and need inspiration for flirting with him. My first/new thread is at:
www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1847255&gonew=1#UNREAD. It's a bit of a novella (sorry) but the part I'm asking for advice with is the last paragraph.
Dia, I just saw that you posted to my thread. Thank you much! I look forward to hearing your ideas.
GAG
Hey Dia
My H has asked for me to put on a "show" for him tonight so he can watch. This will be interesting, never done that before, well not with anyone watching! Any pointers gratefully accepted.
Oh dear. "My" kind of show?
<Dia sets out the smelling salts for the gents>
Assuming it's ok to give this sort of advice here, this is what my H likes about it, in no particular order.
Arch your back
Let your head roll and toss
Don't be shy about letting him see what your fingers are doing. In fact, make a point of it.
Go slow, let it build, be playful, tease yourself
It's ok to close your eyes if it helps you get away from the strangeness of being watched, but lock eyes with him at least once
Let him *hear* how good it feels.
Don't be surprised if your H can't resist joining in at some point.
If this is really that new for you, also don't be surprised or disappointed if either one of you calls a halt because it's a little too much. If so, try again in a few days/weeks/whatever.
Don't be afraid to do things just how you like them. He will be covertly looking for pointers on how to touch you.
Be prepared for a possible pullback afterwards. Pushing the envelope does that sometimes even in a strong and stable R. If it happens, most likely he's processing - esp. the idea of 'is he really comfortable with just how much he liked that?' Also possible that it might happen to you as well, so just be aware.
Above all, if he does pull back, DO NOT take it as any sort of negative on you.
Dam%it, now I need a cold shower.
Thanks Dia
A lot of new and exciting experimentation has gone on in the past week, more than in our entire lives together. We have done a lot of discussing with each other as to wants, likes and fantasies.
Show almost got of the ground the other day but H couldn't take it anymore and had to "join in", got to hot and steamy for him to just watch.
I think the locking eyes is important, we do that when I tend the "floral garden".
I am confident that there won't be a pullback, he has been waiting for me to do this (has asked a couple of times) and so tonight will be the night. He did ask what he could do to assist without actually "joining in" whilst watching, if you know what I mean.
Thanks for your help I will remember to incorporate all of that, will let you know how it goes, well not indepth but as to reaction of H.
GIMA if you hang around a bit longer, tomorrow you might need a cold shower again.
Oh Dia I mean't to say my H also loves to "hear" that all is going well, in fact the louder the better. Could be an interesting night!
If he wants to 'help', introduce him to BOB. Be warned tho that 'helping' tends to turn into 'taking over'.
Yeah I think that is what happened the other day, he started helping but then he needed to be helped and so that animal instinct "took over" not that I complained.
Since we are on the topic, men are also turned on by sexy negligees and costumes. This is a great time of year to buy them because Halloween is coming up. Victoria's secret has some very nice things, and I bought a little black lace teddy online at Fredericks of Hollywood that has some cut-outs in the front that my H found very erotic. A sexy little bra and panties and a 2 yard silk scarf to begin your little dance with work very well.
I agree with Lotus; never ever underestimate the power of giftwrapping the package.
And with Dia. The less self-consciousness you can manage, the better. Ruthlessly own and display your sexuality; he will lap it up.
(bad Kett no doughnut)
So sorry Dia I didn't mean to hijack your thread but I knew you were the one to come to for advice.
Lotus - I need to get some new little sexy negligees, ones that H hasn't bought so hasn't seen, might do that this weekend whilst he is away. I did get new underwear, very sexy stuff in fact. Had been thinking of a costume, just not sure which one.
Will do Kettricken, will be ruthless in owning and displaying.
oh yes, if he's bought them for you, you know he likes it! Some costumes work better than others. My little santa's elf bikini is never going to do the trick. i should sell that one on ebay!
Dam%it, now I need a cold shower.
Yes.
It's gonna be another crazy 12 hour day for me work-wise.
GAG - I have not forgotten you. I will post to you before the end of the day, tho it may be late-ish CA time.
Musings on the concept of "Already Dead"
Not with H but in work situations.
I am watching my company batter itself to pieces against the brick wall of a deadline that we already missed about 3 hours ago. Understand that the deadline is not until sometime between 4 and 9 pm tonight, depending on which Fed Ex facility we are trying to make, but we missed it a few hours ago. And despite being the least senior and newest hire on the team, I know precisely when we lost all hope of meeting this deadline. It was when my VP bailed out of a call with me to take a call from a customer.
See, here I am at several minutes past 2 sitting at my computer while the VP counts inventory in his garage. We can't tell the printer how many thingummies we need printed until after said inventory process, and I have to stop at someone's house before the printer to pick up the masters. Then to the printer to stand there while they run our stuff, and not even then to Fed Ex. Nay, then to the VPs house to collect the garage inventory, and I've even left out one or two intermediate stops.
Me, I am sane (being already dead). I will go where I'm told and do what I'm told but since nothing in my power can change the fact that we've abused the proverbial pooch, I'm pretty well stress-free save for a touch of irk-ed-ness over the fact that this will be a 12 hour day when it doesn't have to be.
I am the only calm person in the company at present. The rest of the folks have not accepted their dead-ness yet.
And forgive me the vent - but what is it with accountants? The VP and I are looking at an inventory list trying to decide how much of it to ship. The list says things like:
201 X flyer
400 Y brochure
32 Z flyer
We sent it back with annotations saying either ALL or HALF next to each item. To us, this is a time saver because we knew if we told her '100 X flyer' that she would count out 100 individual flyers before boxing them when really all we need is for her to stuff about half in a box.
You know what she did, right?
She called me to gripe that I needed to tell her "100" instead of 'half'.
Gotta run!
Dia,
Thanks for remembering my 'hot date'. You must be exhausted....but good that you can see the situation for what it is. Reminds me of many, many, too many years trying to meet research grant application deadlines when I was at the university. Drove H batty....me too. On occasion we would take our grant applications to the airport to be delivered by air and local courier within 4 hours. That was a bit pricey.
Don't forget to reward yourself tonight.
GAG
Hi Dia
Just wanted to thank you for your advice yesterday, all went very very well, I won't post here but will do in my thread.
oooohhhh did I miss Lingerie talk? I love lingerie talk! I might not be unseparated yet but am finding lots of help in GAL with shopping at FOH lately for me....wish I would have discovered the power of Lingerie ages ago!
Buttercup, you should check out the power of sexy shoes!
Hi Dia, sounds like you are doing great! Keep it up! Is H feeling a little less like a scared deer tonight?
Quick update - with me working horrendous hours this week, H has stepped up to the plate to pick up the slack. Go H!!
I've been too wiped out to do much in the hanky-panky department, but we go to sleep in each other's arms each night. Very nice!
Flirting continues, and this morning I got about 5 nice, intimate kisses as we woke up.
All of the above contributed to one of those little 'slips' that tend to happen...
Kidlet forgot a book he needed for school and H rushed in, grabbed the book and said he was headed straight to work after dropping it off. He gave me a quick squeeze for a hug and bolted out the door.
"Love you!" I called after him.
I think he was shocked. Not nec. in a bad way. He didn't say it back, but he was already half way down the drive by then.
I can relate. Almost said the same thing to my W this afternoon on the phone.
Hope work calms down soon for you. Sounds like my job; feast or famine.
Really enjoying all the great info in this thread. Can see I need to find time to read the older posts in this thread too!
Hi, Tristan,
The board hiccupped and your post seems to have been lost in the aether, but here's the answer...
--------------------------
No, not really. Remember that with me, what motivated me to actually leave and file was discovering his affair with my best friend.
Not like I was innocent, mind you - but it's a bit different than your standard WAW. I was ready to move forward *with him*, and it was in trying to go to him to talk about it that I discovered the A.
Hi Dia.
The "Love you"s are kind of strange for W and I too. They seem to come and go in flurries. They come out for a while then get boxed up again. Its kind of like the weather here.
<popping up for air while grumbling about her 60-hour week>
So H came home earlier than expected from his game night with the work buddies.
He was *very* cuddly and affectionate. I was pretty well wiped after the week I've had but even so, I was up for the cuddling. It was an odd night. Good - but odd. We very literally spent the whole night alternately snuggling, going right up to the edge of LM then backing off, lightly dozing and having a very intimate R talk all the while.
Highlights from the R talk:
We talked about LL - conceptually as he has not read it. He agrees his primary is probably Physical Touch. Told him mine was QT.
He APOLOGIZED for ignoring me, both past and present.
We discussed the whole 'what are we going to do about STDs?' thing.
I mentioned the "Love you" comment this morning to see if it made him uncomfortable. He said it does add a bit of pressure, but he *loves* hearing it.
He said outright that he has not made up his mind 'where this all is going' yet. I told him that was ok, I already knew that and am fine with it. I won't pressure him or pitch fits.
Pursuant to the above, I explained that when I came up here, I decided that if these were the last days I was ever going to spend with him, I was going to savor and enjoy them. He said that was very brave of me.
He marvelled over and thanked me for how affectionate I've been and my emotional generosity. He apologized that he hasn't reciprocated to the same degree. I said it was ok; I understood why.
He continues to rave over the floral arrangement a few nights ago, with hints that he'd like more.
He said that he was sure I hadn't come up here with a goal of inveigling my way back into his life but I was doing a d@mn good job of it regardless. I didn't correct him.
We hit my goal of making out like teenagers. Next goal is full-on LM as we've exhausted all of the preliminaries and their variations.
There were about bajillion of the three-squeeze ILYs flying around, but no actual words.
He was MUCH more affectionate in the morning than he usually is, including lots of loving gazes into my eyes,. He may not be saying the words, but ever fiber of his being is saying them for him.
He may not be saying the words, but ever fiber of his being is saying them for him.
That is better than the words anyway.
Then to rephrase Matthew:
"...the flesh is willing but the mind is weak."
heh heh
Then to rephrase Matthew:
"...the flesh is willing but the mind is weak."
heh heh
LOL! The Gospel of Matthew is near and dear to my heart since I played the role of Peggy in Godspell lo these many years ago in my hometown community theatre.
Dia
How are things?
Looks like you are headed in the right direction. Congratulations on that.
ILY are always tricky. I do not understand why its so hard to say those but so easy to be intimate.
Sometimes i just want to proclaim my love for my wife and i don't care that she doesn't return it. Of course, i don't. Yesterday, she said I love you as i was leaving, and i didn't say anything back.
But its always back and forth back and forth. One minute she is lovey dovey and the next she is saying i have both feet out the door but i am standing at the doorway.
Confusing. sigh...
good luck
Hi, Gents,
Thank you for stopping in.
I think things are going quite well.
H came home all huggy this evening. He picked me up in a bear-hug and kissed me on the cheek, too. That's a new one. He's also all afire all of a sudden to talk about this whole 5LL thing. He mulled over various people, trying to guess what theirs were, asked me more about mine and kidlet's and said he'd take the test.
Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice.
My goodness, no update for a whole day?! DIA!!! Pay attention to me!!! Whats going on?! You have a following, you cant just leave us hanging!
Hi Dia
Sounds like it is all still progressing along nicely. All this past weekend I have been thinking of you and what you have done and it certainly inspired me as far as really injecting a bit more spark again in my R over the weekend. Hope work quietens down a bit for you soon though.
LOL!
Hello, Ladies
After the work week from heck, I took the weekend off.
H and I have a movie date for later this evening - his instigation and it was couched in terms of, "I'd like to spend some time with you Sunday evening. Are you free for a movie?"
We've been having little bits and pieces of R talks throughout the weekend, but they don't feel heavy or serious. Not at all 'We Need To Talk.' Sometimes they feel a bit cautious and timid, but in a good way.
Today we went to the Avocado Festival, ate pizza in the local pizza parlor, strolled the local downtown, listened to music, turned kidlet loose in a candy shop, browsed a used bookstore and bought some lovely, imported French and Portuguese hand-made soaps.
H did the 5 LL test and he comes out almost even on everything but AoS, which is quite low. He was 8 on PT, tied for 7 on AoS and QT, 6 on gifts, and almost nada on AoS. We talked some more about 5LL in general, and I even think I see some understanding and some changes in him.
He's been much more pro-actively affectionate, too, not just responsively affectionate. Its interesting in that it provokes some of *my* fears about being open and vulnerable, but I'm handling those just fine.
Regarding gifts, there's a question where you have to pick between something like, "I always love to hear my W say she loves me," and "I still get excited when I open a gift from my W." H picked the gifts option, which I found really surprising.
Dia: Can I ask you about this? You know I'm only not saying it because I don't want to pressure you, right? Is this really how it is (preferring gifts), or is it that you just haven't heard it much from me lately?
H: That one was really hard because they're so close. I can't say which it is, really. And yes, I do love to hear it.
Then I told him that last time we'd been snuggling under the covers, the words would have been rolling off my tongue over and over if I hadn't been holding them back.
The next morning, he got out of bed first while I was still drowsing. He leaned over, kissed my hair and whispered, "I *do* love you."
We've also had interesting talks about assertiveness, communication, chores and future planning.
Assertiveness - I was trying to plan a trip to Disney w/kidlet. H didn't want to go, said it seemed like too much expense and hassle. If the goal was family time, perhaps we could go to the aquarium in Long Beach which costs less and wouldn't require an overnight in a hotel. I said that sounded great. It would be an adventure since I'd never been there.
H was immensely relieved. He said he was terrified of disappointing me or causing conflict, but that he'd gotten a lot more assertive in the past few years. I said that communication and assertiveness were good things, and we needed both. If I was dissappointed, I'd let him know - but really, not going to D-land wasn't going to crumble my world, ya know? Besides, if I wanted to go that badly, I could always take kidlet and go w/o him - would that bother him?
He said no, it wouldn't. Then more talk about assertiveness, communication and avoiding resentment. It was a *really* good talk.
And at the end of it, we'd agreed on a) the trip to the Long Beach AQ, b) a trip in early Nov. for just me and kidlet to see my grandfather and some extended family with a possible Disney visit on the tail end, and c) that I would have the afternoon free to visit the not-so-local casino before our movie date.
I ended up bailing on the casino as it's an hour drive each way. That's when we hatched the plan to hit the Avocado Festival instead. And re: 5LL - kidlet was asking to do something as a family, and in particular, he said he wanted to do something 'interactive', something 'we can talk about afterward.' QT anyone?
Ok, so there's the weekend in a nutshell. I lurked in most of your sitches before I posted, and I hope to be able to make some comments therein tomorrow!
Gotta run - I have a date!
Sounds like it's going very well! And, I'm happy for you.
Keep it up.
DIA, quick question, is the LL test in the book? I downloaded the electronic version and have not come to it it yet. I would love to try and figure out what my WAW's LL is. Although I thihgh it is PT, I am not sure. Is it even possible for us to do the test on behalf of our WAS to figure that out?
Thanks!
Hey Shellshocked, I can answer that one for you since I just saw your question come up here. Hope that's ok, Dia. Saves you waiting a few hours, SS!
The test is in the book right at the back. I did the test on behalf of my WAS to determine his LL. I used the test, together with the things he did for me in the good times and the things I heard him criticise me for not doing (cos I knew those things were obviously important to him.) I think I got a pretty accurate idea of his LL's.
It gave me some quite powerful insights, too!
Cas
Yep, what Cas said. And sure, you can do it for your WAS. It's always possible that it won't be entirely accurate, but if your WAS won't take it, what're you gonna do?
Thanks Dia for keeping us updated! Great to hear about how you guys are fitting in all these important discussions during the day without making it a big deal. The assertiveness thing is interesting. H has become much more assertive now. I'm sure he'd assume I'd be upset about that but honestly I like this new quality - him not being that way was an issue for us for years! I'm a strong woman and I need a man who can be strong but kind (not a jerk of course.) We also had a vacation discussion shortly after the bomb that sounds very similar to yours and resolved in a similar calm way.
I'm really grateful that I am having all these opportunities to "try a different way" with so many small conflicts because he hasn't moved out yet....but not letting it get me over hopeful....I just don't know what is going on in his mind!
Hi, all,
Something Very Good happened last night - and you can probably guess what it is. I'm processing a whole melange of feelings about tho, and I want to sift through all of those before I talk about it.
[Thunderbirds]
Tell me more, tell me more
[Doody]
Did you get very far?
[Pink Ladies]
Tell me more, tell me more
[Marty]
Like does he have a car?
[Everyone]
Uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh
ROFL!!
Sandy:
Look at me, there has to be
Something more than what they see.
Wholesome and pure, Oh, so scared and unsure
A poor man's Sandra Dee.
Sandy, you must start anew.
Don't you know what you must do?
Hold your head high, take a deep breath and sigh
"Goodbye to Sandra Dee."
We made love last night.
I feel like we are cementing this new R bit by bit, tiny step by tiny step. This feels very, very good.
Now the downside. Fear. Uncertainty.
We were both tired when we started, so add a dose of fear on both sides and it wasn't the best either of us have ever had. (I was fine; he was unable to finish.) I don't mean to discount the moment or the meaning, nor am I complaining. But for this particular step, one hopes it would have been an unabashed positive, you know? Like, nothing for anyone to regret or wonder about? For his part, he was tired and had a headache before we had any idea this was even on the menu. Add in any moral/ethical complications (cheating on OW?), fear of being hurt and, well, you get a bit of a mess.
As for me, well, I am questioning if I should have done this without making d@mn sure that OW was history. H has changed so much toward me in the past week or so, though - so much more open, so much more affectionate and there was even more of it this morning.
It doesn't help that I spent much of the night dreaming that OM was hunting me down to kill me, complete with dark suit, dark shades and a really big gun. We had just watched the Wolverine installment of X-Men movies and completely enjoyed it. I was surprised how much story there was amidst the fighting. I'm pretty sure this is where the 'being hunted' images came from.
At any rate, I am looking forward to a reprise with fewere emotional impediments/landmines.
Take-away messages:
1) Don't expect the world when you and your WAS ML for the first time again.
2) This will get better in time, with baby steps, just like everything else.
3) Overall, it's a positive, not a negative.
4) This whole reconciliation thing needs a whole lotta thinkin'. Give yourself (and your spouse) the time and space to do it!
My 2 cents:
The first time you have sex if it's been awhile and there is any emotional weirdness on either side .... it's an unexpected bonus if it isn't a little hinky/mixed feeling. What you got is, IMHO, par for the course. This sounds horribly unromantic, but it's like that first plane ride after the one with all the scary turbulence. Good, that's over, now let's move on.
Actually, I think it's a net positive if neither party has either (a) freaked out and pulled back completely, OR (b) started going on and on and on about how awesome, best ever, etc. Sounds like you are both in an authentic place.
Hi, Kett,
Hinky is a good word for it.
And there was all sort of potential wierdness.
Example: He had condoms on hand. I am certain they were not bought for me, so in the midst of all of this was a very clear reminder to me that he's been sleeping with someone else. <shrug>
But yes, I think we're in an authentic place and HE is the one who initiated and finally crossed the LM boundary. I purposefully did not seduce him into it.
It's good, and no, no pullbacks and no unwarranted raving.
Me, I'm going out on my lunch to get the ingredients for chicken-corn chowder.
Hi Dia
My input here is that as you go along it gets better and better from there. If you haven't had sex in a while it can be a bit strange at first given all that has gone on in your lives.
Don't put any pressure on yourself over the first time, just look forward to the next time which I am sure you will find a much different experience as we have.
Le Menu
Medley of sprig greens with balsamic vinegar and olive oil
Chicken Corn Chowder
Asiago cheese bread
Here's the link to the chowder. I've never tried it before. I'll let you know how it turns out.
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/foodn...cipe/index.html
Dia~
I can understand how you might be disappointed because all didn't go as you hoped it might, but your H has told you, "I *do* love you" and has now initiated LM. You always do a great job at allowing both of you to sort out your fears, feelings, thoughts so you can move on from a productive place. That's why we all love reading your posts. We are all living vicariously through your diary. Anyhoo, I'm sure you'll do it this time as well.
And, looking hot and having dinner ready when he gets home certainly can help in all that!
BIM
Might give the chowder a go, sounds good and even though we are in Spring here, the nights are still cool.
Can you tell me Dia what is Asiago cheese bread?
Oh, and no, I did not poach my own chicken. I used about 6 boneless, skinless frozen chicken thighs and canned broth.
I did, however, poach the thighs in with the corn and potatoes then removed them to dice and return to the pot with the broth. I'll bring it back to temperature and add the cream when H gets home. So far, it smells and tastes amazing.
Here's a link to a recipe for the bread, chosen mostly for the pic.
http://www.ehow.com/how_2159328_asiago-cheese-bread.htmlThe loaf is crusty, dense and chewy. Here's a link to the cheese.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiago_cheeseI thought it would go well with the smoky/sweet notes in the chowder.
BTW, Browni - I had to bite my lips and sit on my hands (
) to keep from 'fixing' things for him last night or to keep from making a great big anxiety fest. As it was, I made one suggestion then just snuggled him when he opted out.
I kept my own processing to myself, though I would tell him if he asked. I feel much better about it now than I did this morning, and part of the is the ookiness of the dream wearing off.
I'm sure that was the right thing to do, Dia. It is best to leave them to their own devices in the middle of something as big as that moment. It doesn't pay to overthink things. AND it never ceases to amaze me how a M and a W can see or experience the same thing so differently.
About 10 years ago when I had to go away for 2 weeks for job training, my H came to visit over the weekend. Had a great weekend, hot sex a number of times. When he left to go home on Sunday night, my love tank was full! H called me from the lobby to ask me if I wanted a copy of his parking receipt or something and I told him no. Come to find out, H was looking for a reason to come back for one last hug or kiss or roll in the hay and my saying no to the receipt seemed like a rejection to him, like I wanted him to go. No way, I was tired and pulled out the ironing board to get ready for the next day and wait on him to call me that he was safely home.
Sorry to hijack, Dia. THose things still stir up such confusion for me. If I wanted to go back, I would just have gone back!
BIM
It looks like things are progressing nicely for you. Him initiating the ILY?
NICE!!
Another quickie - pun intended.
We tried again last night with much better results.
I'll be out for most of the workday today (bleah!), so I will be uncharacteristically quiet for yet another day.
Be good everyone!
So this job thing can quiet down any minute now. Really. I won't mind.
Oy!
Glad to hear that you had better results last night Dia and it will get better and better each time.
Hope your crazy work schedule quietens down a bit for you soon.
We had an R talk over dishes today. We're starting to get into the muck of who hurt whom over what. I have been listening, validating and reassuring. While these talks don't have the glorious, snuggly feeling that some of the others have had, the fact that we're having them - and having them productively - is a good thing. It's like an abcess. Yes, things might heal over, but unless we cleanse the hidden infection, there will always be fever and pain.
We've been focusing mostly on his hurts and his issues, but some of mine have been brought up, too.
Word to the wise: It can be difficult and disorienting to deal with a spouse who is 'different', even if the differences are good. It destabilizes the relationship, and things will be a little uncomfy until the R settles into a new balance point.
What sparked this latest R talk was a comment I made this morning - "I could snuggle you forever." H mulled that one over for a whole hour before he brought it up. He said for much of the R, he felt like he loved me more than I loved him, wanted and offered more affection than I did. The imbalance made him feel rejected and unwanted. 'I could snuggle you forever' was how he used to feel about me, but it was clear to him that's not how I felt about him.
I apologized. He asked what had changed. I said that for one, I used to pull away if we snuggled and I got too hot. I'm not talking 'a little warm' here, I'm talking slick with sweat and he wanted full blankets on us. Now, my position is F being hot - I want to snuggle him. I also brought up time. That just like he felt he'd never gotten enough snuggling and how that made him feel, I'd struggled the whole marriage with wanting more time, and especially feeling like I had to compete with his computer. When I felt second best or like I was living on scraps, I didn't feel particularly affectionate toward him.
I said I felt we'd hit a feedback loop. He felt rejected so he'd withdraw. I felt rejected so I'd withdraw. Which just made both of us feel more rejected so we'd withdraw more.
He asked what was different now, and I said my perception was that I was getting more time than before. Even if it was just 15 mins of talking on the couch, it made me feel loved and wanted. He needed to think about that. He wasn't sure if the reality was different or if my perception was different. I said I wasn't entirely sure either. But I *was* sure of how I'm feeling now.
The talk ended quietly. We both have some stuff to think about.
So if fusion (a la Schnarch) is bad, what's love like without it? Or is there an 'acceptable' amount of fusion? When you feel all of those gooey, 'never want to let you go' feelings... is that fusion or something else?
Please discuss.
Dia thank you so much for your post, its a real insight, my H has only just started to go into R talk, he wants to date again and see how we go! quite frankly Im more scared than when I was sixteen first time around.
It is so good to hear what is ahead of me/us I do really appreciate it, and sorry if this is a little wobbly one glass of wine really makes me squiffy!
Hmmm...have to go back a read so just guesses.
1. Probably a little bit of fusion is OK and perhaps unavoidable but not sure where the line is. Differentiation is the optimum but not so separate from the other as to be a lack of caring, aloof, or self-centered.
2. "Never want to let you go" as in cuddly things = not a problem. As in "No, don't ever leave me or I will be helpless" = problem.
There's been discussion on the boards about the Hollywood, "You complete me" or "I'm nothing without you" BS that does a big disservice towards relationships. You need to be something to yourself before you can be something to anyone else.
T Nhat Hahn said in one of his talks, "To love is to be there." He later explained that it not only meant be there for someone else but to be present for yourself. To be awake, aware, and complete.
I have heard of Hysterical Bonding that goes on when things start to mend in these situations.
I also dont think that fusion to a certain point is a bad thing, as long as people maintain their individuality, and respect their spouses individuality as well.
I think that your in that honeymoon phase again, lucky you!
With as far as youve come, dont forget that patience is what got you here!
Interesting and good R talk. Sounds like you are both letting each other know your LL. Someone has been reading :-)
You know, I think he *has* been reading. After you posted this, I checked the location of the 5LL book. It's on the headboard of the bed instead of on the bookshelf. T'warn't me what put it there.
One of the things I tried to explain was the idea that if your tank is full, just about any of the languages will continue to fill it. But if your tank is empty, a gesture in one of your non-primary LLs is likely to backfire.
Example 1, PT: W/o spending any time with me, H attempted to ML. Boy oh boy did he get the cold shoulder. What, I'm your blow-up doll? You ignore me for months and then expect me to service your needs at your whim??! F-that!
Example 2, Gifts: Right near the end, H bought me a pretty little ring with sapphires in it. It actually made me angry, as if I could be bought. And he knows full well my favorite stone is amethyst. He couldn't even take the time to pick a stone he knows I would like?
Now, I'm not excusing myself for reacting with poor grace, there. But - when your love tank is so empty it's rusted clear through, it seems like only your primary LL will work to start filling it again. Anyone else have that experience?
Here's another thought I've been mulling over. The depth of my hurt over his A with my ex-BFF isn't about the sex. It's that after all of my pleading for more time, after starving for it for so long, he was giving that very thing, the thing I craved from him more than any other - to HER. So all that bullshit about being too busy, too tired, too sick was just... BULLSHIT. He was giving MY primary LL to someone else.
And unfortunately, we're even because I gave his to someone else, too.
Hard lessons all around.
Hi Dia
I would say now you are at the point I was a couple of weeks ago with our R talk that brought up everything he felt was wrong and I brought up what I felt was wrong and how we had wronged each other.
I know what you mean by your primary LL is the one that will start to refill the love tank, been there, done that.
Honesty and truth hurt sometimes, but it all has to be got out in the open for you both to truly move forward with each other, otherwise you both will continue to harbour anger or resentment over issues. So in a nutshell the hurt has to come to the surface for the healing and birth of your new M & R to begin.
At least that is what we found. We have now closed the doors on the past, we discussed it, dealt with it, apolgised to each other for it and then shut the door and locked it.
I think him ready the LL book is a wonderful thing. The book gives great connecting and conversation points. Also shows he is interested in the new you and how you got there.
Like the theory about wrong LL causing more harm than good.
Dia, Hi. I've been reading along, very interested in your posts, not saying too much but applauding your progress. Agree with what you've said about LL. That book said such a lot to me and I'm an advocate of it in all relationships, not just with our partners.
The examples that come to mind from the past
When we had guests, H was the perfect host, getting drinks and organising things and then cleaning up afterwards. I would get really annoyed about the cleaning up because I just wanted him to leave the dishes and come and enjoy the company of our guests.
H worked really hard and I craved time with him. I didn't get the need to work like that. He didn't get my need for his company.
On the empty tank and non-primary LL;
I felt much the same emotions as you when just after separation H gave me very expensive perfume but it wasn't one that I ever wore.
Here's another thought I've been mulling over. The depth of my hurt over his A with my ex-BFF isn't about the sex. It's that after all of my pleading for more time, after starving for it for so long, he was giving that very thing, the thing I craved from him more than any other - to HER. So all that bullshit about being too busy, too tired, too sick was just... BULLSHIT. He was giving MY primary LL to someone else.
Yes, yes, yes that certainly resonates with me!
So glad you are getting the opportunity to share these thoughts with H and so wonderful that he is reading!
Cas
Thanks, everyone. Hell-time at work will continue thru the end of this week. After that my superiors are all at a week-long conference on the other coast.
In other news:
* H is making noises about getting a family photo done
* We have combined our Netflix accounts and eliminated my separate one. (Ahh, modern love - he let me share his Netflix queue!)
Family portrait is a great idea! I now MIL will love one for Xmas! Just kidding. Family portrait is a great idea. It makes a statement to the world, and to the 3 of you every time you see it.
Dia,
To add to your LL conversation, there also comes a point in a R were someone talking your LL can become toxic. For example I'm a QT kind of guy and spending time with my W is just exhausting. Not sure if this is because I'm trying to get something she can't give or what. Its like putting diesel in an unleaded car.
* H is making noises about getting a family photo done
* We have combined our Netflix accounts and eliminated my separate one. (Ahh, modern love - he let me share his Netflix queue!)
That's what Pooh Bear calls "welcoming noises."
Hi, all,
I'm still in my hellish work schedule until the end of the day today, but I wanted to take a moment to let you know that our D is officially Busted.
We had another one of those R talks while doing the dishes this morning. H had been asked to join a game hosted by friends of the Thursday-Dinner-and-Movie people. He asked if I minded him being gone for a few hours on Saturday about once a month. For me, this was a complex question, and he saw that fact on my face.
I told him the short answer was No, I didn't mind, and did he want to hear the more complex stuff?
H: You feel excluded?
Dia: Yes, but it's more than that.
I explained that the people he's talking about sound like people I would like, and the game itself is something I would enjoy. So yes, I felt excluded but there was a larger issue. Logistically, it's been difficult for me to make friends. I work from home, so I don't have a host of office mates where I might meet friends. He doesn't include me in his social circle, so I don't have the opportunity to make friendships there, either.
He said that he *was* planning to integrate me into the social circle of the Dinner-and-a-Movie people. He said he thought we'd get on well. "
H: Every single one of them is eccentric, it's kind of like the Meet the Robinson's family. We'll fit right in.
I thanked him, and he went on to say that OW was having a rough time right now, that he still talked to her a lot and it would be an incredibly bad time to dump her. (and yes, big red flags went up.) But that he also knew he couldn't continue to be in relationships with both of us.
Dia: I understand where you are. I understand that his situation is complicated, and that there is pain for everyone involved. I hear you. If you and I proceed to full reconciliation, I want complete and absolute fidelity from you, and I would expect to give you that as well. I'm not going to throw down about it today, but I won't let this drag on forever, either. At some point, a line has to be drawn and I don't know how long I can wait.
H: That's entirely reasonable.
As you might imagine, the conversation unsettled me, so I walked away from him and busied myself elsewhere in the house. He came and found me to hug me.
Dia: I have never dealt well with insecurity. I think I've done a fabulous job of it these last few months, but I'm upset because I'm feeling insecure right now.
H: Because I'm excluding you from parts of my life?
Dia: No, because I don't know if you're going to choose me or OW.
He didn't say anything. He retreated back to surface subjects, stories from the news, etc. We each made ourselves breakfast but the idle chatter in the narrow galley kitchen was making me feel trapped, so I suggested we eat outside. More idle chatter. I think he was trying to lighten the mood.
Then he went to change for work and I started to put away the breakfast things. Once he'd changed, he came back to me, hugged me close and stroked my hair and my cheek.
H: I think we should give it another go. I choose you. (and yes, I did feel like a Pokemon.) I will break up with OW. It won't be today, and I might still be friends with her, but I will do it.
I hugged him and said thank you.
And yeah, the whole being friends with OW ain't gonna work, not for any of us. I will fight that battle when the time comes.
For the moment, tho - Divorce Busted!
Congratulations, Dia. I hope things go well for you and H from here on out.
Bunny
Congratulations, Dia!
This is so good to hear.
Awesome! Can't talk now. Pulling out for Disney.
So happy for you. I was sweating bullets while you described waiting for the answer! Now start working on getting registered for the next Retrouvaille session. It will complete the reconciliation process in a really short time.
Congrats Dia. I would suggest sitting down and really figuring out what your boundaries should be with OW. You should probably make sure he realizes you will not tolerate a friendship before the break-up. It would be unfair to him otherwise; because he did tell you he will remain friends.
Good luck.
I just shed a tear of Joy for you! Your sitch is an inspiration to everyone that wants their marriage to work. thanks for sharing.
JJ
Yay! I'm so happy for you.
DIA, I have goosebumps reading about your success. I hope that we can all, at some point, get there. Imagining my WAW coming back and saying she picked me over (OM or just friends that are NOT just friends) would be good news.
Tonight, I will say a prayer for your marriage and its continued healing.
Thank you for the prayers and good wishes, everyone. I get happier as the day progresses.
We've hit a major milestone, but we're not completely out of the woods. The real work has just begun. I've DBed like heck, and it's paid off. But now I have to continue to let him in - and that's scary. DBing is very self-protective. Reconciling is about openness and re-forging bonds. I have no illusions that it will always be easy or enjoyable.
Looking back at the convo, I guess I did throw down today and I'm proud of myself for stating my boundaries so clearly. I'm also proud of myself for communicating the feelings of insecurity. Heck, just being able to name what I was feeling is an improvement over 2 years ago.
@ Lotus and Tristan - good points, both. I have Retro and pre-paid DB Coaching up my sleeve. And yes, I agree that I need to be clear about not tolerating a friendship with OW. It will siphon off emotional attention/bonding from me, and it would always be a crack in the M. I am pretty certain he is using the idea to soften the blow to her, as much for his own comfort (See, I'm not an a$$hole. I said I would be her friend.) as for any possible comfort of hers.
I'm in a strong place, all things considered, so I'm not feeling too chuffed about having to state boundaries in that area. It's gotta be done.
Agree. I don't think it's too firm of a boundary to tell H to break friendship off with GF.
Dia, you are in a strong place. Thats why I suggested you make him aware of those boundaries sooner rather than later. If he breaks up with her telling her that they can "still be friends", and you later say no. He will feel a little manipulated. Since he made a clear statement that he wants to remain friends, I think it is best you let him know you can't live with that and explain your very valid reasons why. Otherwise, he will say "Well why didn't you let me know earlier?"
You are doing a great job and an inspiration to everyone here.
Well, well. Things are continuing to improve. I'm a little leery just because of the "stay friends" thing. But ..... "I choose you" is pretty big stuff, Maynard.
My opinion is that a clean break is better for *everyone*, even OW. But it seems like the best thing is to have him just as convinced of the truth of that as you. There must be some resources out there that might resonate along those lines.
So happy for you. I was sweating bullets while you described waiting for the answer! Now start working on getting registered for the next Retrouvaille session. It will complete the reconciliation process in a really short time.
Gosh Lotus you sound a lot like another poster who used to be here!
Family portrait is a great idea! I now MIL will love one for Xmas!
FYI to Lotus - this is abso-flipping-lutely hilarious.
Makes me wonder if I can arrange my fingers for easy Photoshopping so I can send her a little message in the pic.
Ahhh, revenge fantasies.
On the upside, I have FIL and SIL solidly cemented on my side. I heartily doubt they would cooperate with MIL to give the required signatures for what she threatened to do. (For those who missed it, MIL threatened to disinherit H and throw us out of the house if we reconciled.)
SIL has been very anxious about her status as a mother. I guess her mommy circle has been giving her a hard time about 'not doing things right.' Just before she left, I took her aside and said she needed to tell her Mommy circle where to shove it. From what I'd seen, she was an excellent mother and not to change a thing. She cried. I was being completely sincere, too. It irked me that those people were being so mean to her.
As for FIL, he said in the beginning that he'd support H whichever way he decided, but he's been covertly pleading my case. Then after the big pork roast dinner - well, the man says you don't let go of a woman who can cook like that. His LL is AoS and he has a wife who doesn't cook.
MIL's LL is gifts, so I'll be making some peace offerings in that direction, but yeah, a family portrait at this point is probably over the top for her.
Dia
I am new here but following your sitch for weeks while I was lurking. Congrats, you are definitely an inspiration!
HBH
Hi Dia, delurking to say congrats on busting your divorce. Been following your story for a week or two and hoping that my situation can go the same way.
WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Congrats, Dia. Yes, the new path begins. But you have done a hell of a job on your previous phase. Bravo!
So pleased for you Dia, you have finally got your man! Think I need to reread your thread as Im sorta stuck at the moment, reeled mine in then he then got panicky and Im not sure how to handle it, so if you get a minute some advice over on my thread would be much appreciated. Just enjoy this bit now even though I agree its where the hard work starts!
Hey Dia, congratulations!!!
I wonder if the issue of the being friends with the OW wont resolve itself... shes probably going to hate him for choosing you!
Let me add my congrats and well wishes, Dia. Very happy to see the vast progress you've made.
You're right. Reconciling is not going to be a bed of roses. But you've come so far, and I hope you'll continue to share your experiences.
Ditto what everyone before me has said.
Read the other day that on the list of top 10 stresses in life reconciliation was around eight.
Keep up the good work and check in on us every now and again!
Hi, all,
Many, many thanks for the continued stream of good wishes. Today we have a mix of the good, the bad and the ugly.
The Good - Friday night we went to a fundraiser dinner for kidlet's school. The dinner was at the home of a classmate and we had a great time. We got to sit and chat with the hosts an other parents, and the kids had an awesom time running all over the property, swinging on a big tree swing, waving glowsticks around in the dark and generally being kids.
Saturday was spent at a fall festival in the local downtown. We met up with the D's, walked all over, sampled treats at many of the locations, did wine tasting, let the kids have ice cream and jump in bounce houses, etc. After the festival, H and his best pal from childhood wanted to go to a local brew pub. I said fine, have a great time but it ended up with all four of us going. And we had a great time there, too. The pal came back to the house, and H, pal, and kidlet all played video games together.
Now for the stickier stuff - H broke up with OW today. I suppose that falls under 'Good.' He said she was taking it well, so he'd see how the next week or two progressed. With all of the activities Fri. Night and Sat., I haven't had a chance to discuss my feeling on contact between them yet. I'm going to give it a little time, 2-3 weeks or so, out of respect for the fact that this was pretty much a 'real' relationship started when everyone thought D was a certainty and lasted a good year and a half.
H is bearing up well, though I can see the strain (especially in light of what I'll get to under "Ugly"). Not knowing this was all going down today, I made a bacon and apple corn pudding for breakfast, then turned around and used the drippings in the skillet to start a pork and sweet potato stew from Emeril. Once I found out what was going on, I told H I would be there in whatever way he needed me, whether it was hugs and comfort, or just to give him space. Initially, he asked for space but he was coming to me to hug me half an hour later.
Now for the ugly...
Apparently this all started when MIL called. She wanted to come up here to visit and until now, I guess folks had just kept quiet that I was still here. So H had to tell her, and he told her that we are 'going to spend the next several months together and see how things go.' H thought this approach was a better way to break the news than to say, "We've reconciled. Deal with it."
MIL is not pleased, to say the least. She wants nothing to do with me, will not speak to me, will not acknowledge me as family and told H that she may ask us to move out of the house. H also expects from earlier conversations (albeit more than a year ago) that he will be disinherited, with everything going to his sister.
So, H is having to deal with a whole lot of suckage right now. On the bright side, that he chose me while knowing all of that says a fair piece about his committment to me.
I will take care of him as best I can. The bit about possibly having to move is a blow to him as he is very attached to this house. Additionally, this house is the inheritance he may be losing.
I am expecting that FIL and SIL will work on MIL, but MIL has a long and glorious history of holding grudges.
So... I'm pretty good on taking care of H while all of this is going on, but anybody got suggestions on how to handle the MIL?
H says to wait it out, to do nothing at present. I've indicated my willingness to attempt to repair the relationship with her, but he says to do nothing for now. Anything I did would be seen as manipulative. Of course, he also admits that doing nothing could easily be thrown at me later, but for the moment, he says it's the best course.
I hope he understands that, given her ability to apparently hold a personal grudge in the face of the fact that her son is reconciling with the mother of his child .... if it wasn't you, sooner or later OW would do something to piss her off and get exactly the same treatment. This kind of reaction -- eviction, disinheriting -- is something I *might* expect if you were a full-blown abusive psycho bitch from hell. For it to happen under any other circumstances smacks of serious dysfunction and control issues on *her* end.
There is a lot getting thrown at him at once. But ultimately, if he can't deliver the message, "We're reconciled. Deal with it", you have great big problems remaining. However, there's nothing that says you have to insist he handle it any certain way at this exact moment.
Do you feel comfortable letting him call the tune on how you interface with his mother right now?
Well, that is tough. But she had to be told at some point. And she probably will get used to the idea. Christmas is coming, so you will have an opportunity to give a gift. Since she didn't say, "move out now!" she most likely won't say it. I would think the time of her most passionate anger would be now.
Here's the recipe for the stew. Leave the cayenne out of the essence if you don't like hot. Also, I use reg. sweet potatoes, chicken or beef stock instead of veal, and I omit the brunoise pepper.
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeri...cipe/index.htmlSo after all of that today, I find myself needing reassurance. That maybe H will decide I'm not worth all this trouble. I don't want to add a needy wife on top of his already sucky day tho, so I'm telling myself over and over to look at his ACTIONS today and let them speak for him.
1) He told his mother we were working things out. And even despite her controlling tantrum,...
2) He broke up with OW.
3) He then called the rest of his family and a few friends to tell *them* we were working things out as well. (Small town, rumor management.)
At any point in that, he could have turned to me and said, "Actually, this isn't going to work for me. Go find yourself a place." But he didn't.
Hey you...
my 2 cents is to stay comletely out of the MIL thing. That's a person who isn't going to be reasonable. As Kettricken wisely said, (and I'm paraphrasing), it ain't about you. So anything you do will be used against you, and that will probably include doing nothing, but doing nothing is the best route when dealing with a controlling toxic parent.
That's a big ole "damned if you do/damned if you don't"...so why put yourself through it and have any drama. Let H handle it. It's probably an empty threat about the house anyway. Staying cool will just make her look like more of an hysterical idiot anyway.
Hi Dia
Absolutely fantastic news, I am sooooooo happy for you. Yes, you have a lot of hard work ahead of you, same as me, but it is so much easier when you both are working for the same goal.
Re: letting him call the shots re: his mother. Well, I have a few things to be grumpy about myself where she's concerned (on top of the whole WTF does she think she's doing to my H and her own ^$@#* grandson?!!), so no contact may well be a good thing for awhile. And he didn't just come out with a 'don't talk to my mother' rule. I said that his sister was advocating making peace-offerings toward her, but his father was telling me not to, so what was his take?
I agree that she has issues, and for whatever reason, I'm triggering them. It's also easier to demonize me than to admit that maybe her baby boy did something to merit my leaving.
I am capable of making peace with her, but I'm not going to throw myself under a bus to do it. There are some things I need to say (even if she doesn't hear them) , and some boundaries that need to be set. But I think, all in all, that I probably agree with no contact for now.
Ahhhh, Crappity.
SIL just called H in a tizzy. It's their 2nd talk today, so most likely this means that MIL has just cornered SIL to go apesh&t about me.
Oy!
Poor H.
Poor SIL.
'nother thought, though the humor is fairly dark...
Hey, at least there is now someone who is CLEARLY more 'demanding and unreasonable' than I am!!
Dia,
My mother sounds somewhat like your MIL. My $0.02 worth is to stay out of it. This is H's problem to deal with. Just support your H.
Dia,
Hey, at least there is now someone who is CLEARLY more 'demanding and unreasonable' than I am!!
Very funny! And a great PMA!
Stay away from Mama. You can't win, there. Don't get sucked into the drama she orchestrates.
Stay cool, baby, stay cool. Stay the beautiful wife and partner who has his back.
(I have no doubt you have things to say, but you'll get the chance to say them later.)
I think it's really positive that he took the initiative to call around and verify that you were back together. He gets points from me for that.
Yeah, thanks, everyone.
That's one Crazy Train I'm not getting on.
/cue Johnny Cash
I hear the train a' comin'
It's rollin' round the bend.
She may be serious, but she is underestimating the power of reverse psychology.
Reverse psychology is a persuasion technique involving the false advocacy of a belief or behavior contrary to the belief or behavior which is actually being advocated. This technique relies on the psychological phenomenon of reactance, in which a person has a negative emotional response in reaction to being persuaded, and thus chooses the option which is being advocated against.
It is often used on children due to their lack of psychological understanding and higher rate of reactance.
Or, in this instance:
Whoever looks, sounds, and acts more bat-sh*t-crazy, demanding, and needy is probably going to come out of this the loser.
Or, in this instance:
Whoever looks, sounds, and acts more bat-sh*t-crazy, demanding, and needy is probably going to come out of this the loser.
Yup.
Just put brownies in the oven. Both of my men are happy, esp. the little one.
BTW, Lotus - Are you saying that the more she agitates to have me put in the street or H disinherited, the more people will resist her? I can see that...
Yup. It's a real possibility. Likely everyone feels bullied by her. So each time she says the sky is blue, they say, "No, it's not."
Hmmm, they do feel bullied, but from what I've seen, they usually say, "Look, just tell her it's blue so she'll shut up."
I will watch from a distance. How can I fiddle while Rome burns? Easy. I don't live in Rome.
I think MIL's issues with me go back to before the wedding. During the discovery phase of the D, we pulled a copy of the trust they hold their property in. A few days before the wedding, H was taken off the trust. He is still a recipient - at least so far - but he is no longer a trustee, meaning that he has no signatory or decision-making power. I think she may have had suspicions at the time that I was out for his money. <shrug> Who knows.
Wow. Well, clearly your husband is aware of her *long-standing* prejudice, and will hopefully treat her views with the respect they have merited.
Brownies ..... drool .......
Hi Dia
My little piece of input for what it is worth, my H's family hated me from day one, I was considered a snob, they were all feral except for H who always secretely thought he was adopted because he was so different. They ruined the night before our wedding, the wedding day and have never said one kind word to me apart from one SIL. My H, bless him, pretty much disowned them because of the constant attacking and how dysfunctional they were.
So what I am trying to say is the more she pushes, whinges, complains and all the rest, the more your H will fight against her. She can't win, not now, not ever.
Always though remain the perfectly gorgeous, well mannered lady that you are and they can never have valid ammunition to fire off about you.
My mother was and still is not happy with my H, she never liked him, even blamed him for my father's death, said my H worried my father into an early grave (this was the most horrible thing she could have said, my H loved my father), her attitude has driven a very large wedge between her and I over the years and she had a lot to do with our past situation. Families have a lot to answer for, thank heavens we can choose our friends.
All will be well and perfect in your world soon Dia, you are 3/4 of the way there, once you get over this hurdle you won't look back.
(((((Dia)))))
I've been out of touch for a bit and just now doing some catch up.
Congrats to you. I am so happy for you!!!
OMG - I was clearing out the stuff in what used to be my underwear drawer and I set something on the corner of the dresser while I continued to make space in the drawer. It dawned on me very slowly. There used to be a pic of OW on that corner of the dresser! Dumbfounded, I looked around on the floor in case one of the cats had knocked it off. Nope.
Then I looked on the wall where a collage of her and her D3 used to hang. Nada.
I was so relieved. They're in his sock drawer, which is fine by me. I didn't expect him to just throw them in the trash or anything. I'm not sure when he took them down - must have been during the long session of calls with her, his parents and assorted friends.
Earlier on, he thanked me for not doing anything catty to those pictures, and he's right when he said that no matter how much it hurt me to see them, I wasn't the type to have broken them, thrown them across the room or anything like that. Now, I'll confess that in my worst moments I've flipped her off when I walk by, and I've had a few to-the-point conversations with her about getting the heck out of my life and backing off my man but that's as far as it ever went.
When I saw that the pics were gone, I was relieved. And only relieved. I prodded at the relief for a moment, surprised that there didn't seem to be any vindictiveness in it. Then I gave myself a pat on the back for that. It would have been nice if this could have been done without hurting her, but that wasn't my issue to worry about.
At any rate, I'm moving back into the dresser in the MBR and cleaning off the top. Right now, it's a melange of dust, old receipts, books and who knows what.
Question for all of you: I'd like to do something really nice for H, a gift of sorts to say thank you for choosing me, for re-joining the M. Any suggestions? I don't think Hallmark makes a "Thank you for dumping your Mistress" card.
Dia,
Question for all of you: I'd like to do something really nice for H, a gift of sorts to say thank you for choosing me, for re-joining the M. Any suggestions? I don't think Hallmark makes a "Thank you for dumping your Mistress" card.
Nor does Hallmark make a "Congratulations, you made the right choice" card.
How about ane of those blank-inside cards and saying something like, oh, I don't know, like, "Thank you for choosing me and re-joining our marriage,"?
I don't know if I'd go for a gift, though.
My $.02.
@ Lotus - Now *there's* an idea!! I like how you think!
@Gardner - Blank card - also a good idea. Or the standard, romantic, maybe slightly humorous I Love You card would probably work, too.
Maybe both plus roses and/or candles on the newly cleaned dresser? Or is that overkill?
Going out on a limb here but having had my H come back to me once 7 years ago, I want to remind you that he chose you because you are the better woman and hopefully it is as much for him as it is for you.
Take it slow but really you'll need to have gratitude while still honoring how valuable you are. He isn't doing you a favor.
So, talk is cheap. Make the marriage work. ML and tell him in your own genuine way what it means to you to have him completely.
Never take the M for granted but also, never believe that you are the lucky one out of the two of you. I hope I'm making sense. I fed into my H's belief that I was lucky to have him and I think that diminished the value of what he was getting out of it too (always looming though subtly was the possibility that he could "choose" someone else again). Make sense?
Makes sense. Thanks AK.
Dia
I'd say just be you, cherish the time together and maybe give him the gift of yourself tied up with a bow
Candles and sexy music always win in my book. Whipped cream, edible body dust, nice lingerie, no lingerie. Not all at once however!
A bedroom picnic is also fun at the end of a long week. You can even print invitations and a menu.
However, I don't think you need any single grand gesture. You are a great gift. Be good to him and let him be good to you.
Go easy here, Dai. He's got lots of things pushing back, if he feels you starting to pull, he will question himself. I'd think really carefully about the present, or even card.
You night be able to sneak a new nighty in on him, though.
Oh, and the picnic basket doesn't only have to include food. Maybe something to put on and take off?
What Jeff said. Not all gangbusters but over time. You have patience and you are in it for the long haul.
You're so good with cooking. Start in the kitchen...and finish in the bedroom.
For tonight, I kept it simple. I cleaned an area in the bedroom that I know will please him. There is nice music playing and incense burning. No card. No gift. Just me. And I let him in on the secret of my 5pm ritual, so now he knows to look for it and he knows what it means. He was touched and pleased when I told him.
I guess your 5PM ritual is different than mine. I go to the grocery at 5 PM and pick out something for dinner.
Personally, I think you sound like a treasure. Give him yourself, but don't hesitate with the gratitude. He chose you. It doesn't make you weak, or devalue you, to be vocal in your appreciation. Relative worth has nothing to do with it; we're all so unique. But choosing someone, eyes open, is about the greatest gift anyone can give. I know he won't be sorry.
I guess your 5PM ritual is different than mine. I go to the grocery at 5 PM and pick out something for dinner.
My 5 pm ritual:
1) Look around and do 5 mins of spot tidying. Did I leave a dish on an end table? A dirty knife on the cutting board? etc.
2) Refresh hair, makeup and perfume.
3) Change clothes into something 'nice' if I'm in jammie pants and a t-shirt.
4) Have dinner started and smelling good.
These are optional, depending on time:
5) Have music on.
6) Have an appetizer prepared. (H has blood sugar issues and forgets to eat.)
He was appreciative of the cleaned dresser top tonight, and for the supper I'd made. Nothing fancy tonight - just pasta with sauce from a jar. He stopped for a few groceries, so he got home later than usual. He said he's feeling down and depressed with everything that's been thrown at him emotionally. I listened, but he kept it short. He asked how I was holding up, and I said I was fine. I said I was there for whatever he needed, even if what he needed was space (in which case I wouldn't actually be there - which made him laugh, which was my goal).
Three weeks to get over the worst of breaking off an A... So by the middle of November, he should be past most of it? I'll continue to be witty, respectful and supportive and it won't even be hard.
For the moment, tho - Divorce Busted!
Dia I am sooooooooooooooooooo happy for you! Still rough patches to be dealt with and I understand the MIL thing. In my case, though, my MIL is one of my best friends. It will be my H that will face the "I will never forgive him or be around him" MIL.
I had chills when he said he chose you. Tonight my prayers will be full of thanks!
Hey Dia,
Just checking in to say again how happy I am things are heading in the right direction for you. I have been watching as we walked around Disney the last few days. We are down here for the EPCOT Food and Wine Festival, so I couldn't help but think of you.
I will continue to pray for you and your family.
Hi, Wifey and GIMA,
Thank you for popping in.
Kidlet goes back to Cub Scouts tomorrow and all of us are excited about it. I did Girl Scouts through most of high school and H was an Eagle Scout. He and his age-mates built the Scout House the troop now meets in. (Ok, he and his age-mates also accidentally set it on fire, too, but that's another story.) The troop leader is one of the boys from H's original troop and the son of the Scout Master who ran the troop when H was there.
Kidlet belonged as a Tiger Cub, so going back to that troop is one of the benefits of being back here and back together. As H and I were discussing it Friday night, I asked H if he wanted me to come, too, or if he wanted it to be a father-son thing. Kidlet immediately chimed in to say it was a 'man' thing and no Moms allowed. H laughed, then gently corrected him to say that Moms and other women were welcome, and sometimes the leaders were women, too.
This will change the pace of our week somewhat as it disrupts the Tues - Thurs pattern for H to have his game night and his dinner-and-a-movie night.
So, add to the things Dia is grateful for:
1) Going back to Cub Scouts is one more mossy little brick in the whole return-to-normalcy path.
2) From my earlier post, H is processing his feelings about the breakup with OW very well. Not only that, but he's sharing them with me and not blaming me for them. Woo Hoo!
3) I was able to tell kidlet today that he and I would be staying in this house and we wouldn't have to move. Even better, Dad and I were going to be married again and see how it worked. It might have been better to do that together, but kidlet does not express his "I hope you and Mom get back together" or "Are we staying here or do we have to move?" fears to H; only to me. Kidlet is pleased.
Hey, Wifey? How do the two of you handle holidays? Is your H welcome at extended-family get-togethers on your mother's side?
I'm guessing that since I'm 'not part of the family' that I will not be welcome for Christmas or Thanksgiving at H's FOO compound. H is welcome at my family's place, but for reasons having nothing to do with our M, I've already decided that we'll get a hotel for any time we spend with my family over the hols.
I'm ok with being persona-non-grata, actually, and it's a bit odd to me that I am. I've learned some hard, strong lessons in detachment over the past two years. MIL is entitled to her feelings and opinions just as much as I'm entitled to think she's batchit crazy for having them.
In fact, I can even understand why she feels that way. And being detached and not pursing her is DBing my MIL.
Wow. Am I an optimist or what? I dreamed about MIL last night and instead of the nasty dream one might expect, she smiled at me and spoke nicely to me.
From my brain to God's ears.
ROFLMAO!!!
H has finally figured out that the half hour - 45 mins between when kidlet goes to school and he leaves for work is the perfect time for a quickie.
I'm very happy that things are doing so well for you. I thought I was pretty detached, almost numb, but when I read "divorce busted," I caught a little hope.
Congrats!
H has finally figured out that the half hour - 45 mins between when kidlet goes to school and he leaves for work is the perfect time for a quickie.
Now there's some incentive to have those lunches packed and coats ready the night before. "Hurry up kids! Your dad and I don't want you to be late for school."
LOL! Dia your an animal!
Sounds like things are moving right along. It seems to me that maybe your MIL wont ever be your best friend, she will have to eventually see that you and H are happy, and what more could a mother ask for than her son to be a happy and fulfilled H and father? I would say just keep on keeping on and hope for the best, besides, if she cant get over it, thats her problem, you arent M to her!
I would expect a long haul regaining her trust, and your probably already ahead by just acknowledging that her feelings are valid and she has the right to have them. Your right, DB her! It works in all kinds of relationships!
Hey, Wifey? How do the two of you handle holidays? Is your H welcome at extended-family get-togethers on your mother's side?
My H is absolutely welcome by everyone, but my parents. So, no, he isn't able to come with me to visit, not that he wants to.
The thing is that we still do holidays as a "family" at my in-laws house. Coupled with the fact that my parents are snowbirds and already in Florida for the winter, its just us up North.
When it comes to the MIL, I have to tell you it is something your H will have to address. I already had a convo with my Mom where she told me I should just get a D and move on with my life. She said she will never ever forgive or accept my H or have him around.
I calmly told her that she was entitled to her feelings and that we all have choices to make. But, God willing, my marriage will be restored and he will be coming home. I told her that I love my family, I love my H, and I am just glad to know how she feels.
I relayed this to my in-laws, that have been amazing to me actually, and they were sad. At the same time they were amazed that I was so calm and strong while I told them. They think their son has lost his mind and hope he will figure out what he wants sooner rather than later.
I think if you focus on the two of you, and acknowledge that she is definitely not approving of the reconciliation, that it will be addressed. Ignoring it or not talking about it would make it an "issue" but just agreeing that it is what it is and growing beyond it makes it the two of you dealing with the MIL. With my cold I have no idea if that makes sense.
Thanks, Wifey. That's helpful.
In honor of our first winter storm, I am posting my recipe for hot chocolate.
Heat whole milk in a sauce pan or the microwave, then add the following to each cup:
* a pinch of salt
* a few drops vanilla extract
* 2-4 teaspoons unsweetened chocolate powder (e.g. Ghirardelli or Hershey's in the brown can)
* a dash of cinnamon
* sweetener of your choice
If you're feeling exotic, try one of these additions:
* coconut milk
* a few drops orange or raspberry extract
* a pinch of chili powder
Or, my other favorite hot toddy - piping hot apple cider spiked with
Hot Damn.
Hi Dia
It all sounds really good and moving along very nicely indeed. Even though we are in spring here, it is freezing like the middle of winter again, so might give your hot chocolate a go tonight.
Good recipes.
Be careful. That stuff will make you do things that don't make sense. New Year's Eve midnight a few years ago we decided to get a head start against another team in a mileage competition by riding bike trainers outside at 15F next to a bonfire on a frozen lake. Then somebody starts passing the bottle around and it really got weird. "Hot Damn!"
What is Hot Damn? Don't know if we have that here.
The only thing I have had that was a bit deadly was a few weeks ago at a party and that was Grappa, had never had it before.
Hot Dam is spicy hot cinnamon Schnapps, a liquer. Do you have Schnapps there? Or the little red candies called
Red Hots?
Probably do, I haven't really had many liquers. Will have to find out.
I'll trade you for some Bundaberg or Four-X (and I'll go off the wagon for a day).
(O'dog's been to Bundaberg)
No problems O'Dog. Bundaberg and Four-X I know.
Popped an email to H letting him know that I had some pre-paid counseling sessions he could use, either by himself or together. We'll see what he says.
Work vent -
I was reviewing some marketing materials for a training my company is doing a week from next Monday. The marketing materials say that breakfast and lunch are included. Hmmm. *I'm* the one who makes those kind of arrangements and this is the first I've heard!!
*grumble*
Future conversation.
Boss: Oh yeah, Dia. That training we have coming up...why don't you go ahead and set up breakfast and lunch for everyone?
Dia: No problem. Cereal and fast food work for you?
ROFL!!!
Breakfast Menu: Froot Loops, Sunny D, Instant coffee, Powdered milk (works for the cereal AND the coffee!).
Lunch: Mickey D's or Taco Bell - hey, you get to pick!!
I don't mind doing catering. It's the "what if I hadn't looked at the materials before I sent them?" that gets me. Oh, yeah - mind reading is part of my job description.
And I'm waiting for a confirmation from the boss on this one. We only have 6 bodies registered for that training. I ain't bookin' no airfare or hiring a caterer until I know if we're going forward with only 6 people.
A gratitude post...
* I can buy groceries without fear. I am still frugal, but I can shop based on health, taste and nutrition, not just by cost.
* I can buy clothing for the kidlet to keep him warm, dry and looking well cared for.
* I can splurge on a latte or lunch out every now and then.
* I can afford haircuts and makeup.
* I don't have to choose between groceries or medications, or agonize over a doctor visit.
* I don't worry about running out of gas before the next child support payment arrives.
* With a little saving, I can think about things like a vacation or maybe buying a used tent trailer for camping.
* Together, H and I can afford to replace his 98 Ford, or to have it fixed.
* I have a roof over my head, a warm bed for myself and my child, and a husband who works hard to make it so.
Mark it on the calendar, boys - gratitude from a former almost WAW.
Yes be thankful.
O'dog is just learning the reality of your statements as he ponders giving up his cute house downtown for something cheaper. (just a few more hours till payday...please..)
Hi, O'dog,
It really ground me gears that your X was griping about her pittance of child support.
One of the things that won my respect back for H was that he was never a day late or a dollar short with the support money. We still have separate finances. I pitch in $200/month toward insurance and I buy the majority of the groceries. All in all, I'd say his monthly expenses have dropped by at least a grand a month since I came back. We cost him a bit more in utilities, but not a huge amount. I hope he does something fun with the extra money - really enjoys it. He deserves it.
A gratitude post...
Mark it on the calendar, boys - gratitude from a former almost WAW.
Thanks for sharing. I don't think that my W has thought about this stuff at all. It gives me hope that she may one day.
EB's W: What? No more $180 haircuts and I can't drop $300 at Target on a whim? $15 lunches, no problem...oh wait...
Mind you I don't want her to stay for financial reasons, but it would be nice to feel appreciated for providing. It's nice that some people get it.
Hope for us all. I second the thing on the money part. I make sure it gets to her as soon as possible so the kids don't suffer and I work a second job for myself and them as well.
Dia - what a great read to come back to.
You've confirmed my suspicions that everything is possible if you shove enough effort at it
Good on ya girl!
Will do some more catchup over the weekend.
YeeeeHaaaaaaa!
Mac
So as not to clutter up Thinker's thread further ....
Oh, girl .... it's NEVER too cold for Pool Boyz!
So let me get this right. I don't need eharmony or match. I just hang out near the pool with a big stack of fluffy towels?
"Can I refresh your drink? Was that a pina colada you were enjoying?"
So let me get this right. I don't need eharmony or match. I just hang out near the pool with a big stack of fluffy towels?
"Can I refresh your drink? Was that a pina colada you were enjoying?"
And don't forget - no matter how old we look, call us MISS or CARD US for that drink. Alternatively, if you can pull off "Madame" with a proper exotic accent (i.e. so it doesn't sound like you think we run a brothel), that works, too.
Thus endeth week 3 of the impossible work schedule, though this week it was probably only 43-45 hrs instead of 60. Silly me, I thought that once I packed the CEO and VP off to the trade show, my life would get easier. NOT!! They left me with all the fires they didn't have time to put out before they left, and with the task of arranging a catered dinner for 20, by phone, on the opposite coast, by last night.
Next week, however, next week looks promising in the sanity department. My accountant is on stress leave for a week. She's disconnecting her computer and her phone, and believe me, this will save her life (cuz I was gonna keel her!). See, while I was putting out said fires mentioned above, not to mention consulting on wine list, pasta selections, projection screens and whether or not the Vietnamese Spring Rolls were vegetarian, she emailed me with this little "I NEED THIS ASAP!!!" message. You know, the kind with the red exclamation point to mark it 'urgent' and in case you missed that, three regular text exclamation points in the subject heading. The time stamp was 1:18.
Our email program refreshes every five minutes. That's the fastest you can make it go without manually clicking the Check Email button. Five mins seems pretty reasonable to me. Anyhoo, so there I was, debating the merits of Spring Rolls vs. Stuffed Mushrooms with a caterer who does NOT return calls, so when you get him, you talk to him right then. She buzzed in during the call and I let it go to voice-mail.
When I got off the phone at about 1:25, there were TWO of those ASAP emails from her. One time stamped 1:18 and the other time-stamped 1:23. It took me 5 minutes to locate the piece of info she needed, so estimated time from when she sent the ASAP email to when she got her answer was maybe 15 minutes.
And the witch was pissed at me for taking too long!! "I shouldn't have to send you TWO emails AND call you to get something done!"
Her stress leave is a good thing. Not only will it get us out of each other's hair, but it will give me a chance to have a talk with the CEO about using her doctor's recommendations re; stress reduction to change a few difficult work behaviors. She complains a LOT about how she works 60, 70, 80 hour weeks, but she's a control freak who actually takes work away from other people and insists on doing it herself. Example: She sent me an 8 page itinerary document for this trade show. My job was to update all of the info to make it current for this year. Complicated document, actually, containing travel arrangements for two people, every contact and vendor for the trade show, a detailed shipping log of all of our products, copies of all the order forms for the booth set-up, etc.
So, being the 'new girl', I gave it my best shot and sent it to her to check. She sent it back after 4 hours, griping that she'd had to CALL the travel company to get the time zone for all of the flight connections, WAIT on hold, FIX the document, then explain to me ad nauseum why it was SO vital to have that info. (5:38 pm wasn't enough. It had to say 5:38 MST.)
Then there was the FONT issue. Did I KNOW how long it took her to make sure all of the fonts were the same? She had to highlight every piece....
Ok, so - the work this woman does is abso-flipping-lutely amazing. Star quality stuff. She is an invaluable asset to the company.
BUT...
1) How hard is it to Google "Denver Time Zone"? Takes 1.5 seconds and no waiting on hold!
2) Even better, send the document back to ME, saying, "Please put in the time zones for the flight information and make sure the font is consistent." No problem! That's my job. Would have taken her maybe 15 mins total, including the time to review the doc. Would have made me responsible for my own mistakes, and would have been the best way of teaching me to do it right in the future, as well.
15 mins vs. 4 hours. So immediately I wonder how many of those 80 hours she worked were unnecessary and how much of her 'stress' is self-inflicted.
It's a very sticky wicket. I am actually in training to run the whole darn company and I'm not sure if the accountant knows that. She treats me like a witling two-bit temp, and I'm not sure if that's because she thinks that's what I am, or if it's because she's thinks belittling me will ease her insecurities about me eventually being placed over her.
When I interact with her, I am consummately professional. I maintain boundaries, though. Example: "I'm sorry, Accountant. I was on the phone with the caterer and couldn't take your call. The info you need is XYZ."
Getting back to the stress leave thing, CEO and I have already had a convo about her professional development, in a word, helping her learn to let things go and not obsess over minutia. The docs orders re: stress may give us just the tool we need to make the message stick.
Doing stellar work - Great!
Making life heck for yourself and your co-workers in the process - Gotta change.
Part of me has to wonder if she thought SHE was going to be taking over the company, and that's fuelling the "Office Girl" treatment.
Back to the beginning...
Next week, the CEO and VP are taking 3-4 days comp time AND the accountant is on stress leave. So nobody to make fires for me to put out! I can attack my undone To-Dos in an orderly, maybe even leisurely fashion.
The downside - I've been left 'in charge'. This idea that things will be slow and easy is a pipe-dream, isn't it?
Hrm... and this just hit me. Accountant's stress leave coincided with Dia being put - ever so temporarily - in charge.
Methinks I see a power struggle in full bloom.
Upside: Not my problem. CEO's problem. My job is to be professional and do what I was hired to do. CEO's job is to handle temper tantrums about succession.
I've been handling the accountant with a combo of boundaries, praise and appreciation. I know it's not marriage stuff, but I'd happily listen to suggestions on anything I should do differently with her.
Ok, next post will be about M stuff. And food!
Ok, next post will be about M stuff. And food!
Bring on the food!
My culinary achievement for the week was perfecting heary cream of chicken stew. When I made that chicken corn chowder a week or so ago, my one gripe was that it wasn't thick. It was thin like skim milk. When our winder storm hit, I wanted something hot and creamy, thick and hearty (hush you!).
So basing off the chowder recipe, I went more in the direction of a chicken stew. Sweated a mirepoix with garlic and 8 oz of bacon, added water to cover and poached the chicken in situ. Removed the chicken to dice, added white beans and potatoes, added spices. 2 hrs in, it smelled and tasted wonderful. Here's the step I've never tried before. It's easy but somehow I'd always found it intimidating. I whisked 4T cornstarch into a cup of half and half than stirred that in. OMG!!! Instant thick, rich stew. The texture was like a good, New England clam chowder.
I thought I'd made enough for two nights, but it was gone in 1 with about half a bowl left for my lunch the next day.
Dinner on Mom and Kidlet Movie Night (H's off-site game night) was pizza, and tonight was ribs.
Given the cool weather, I've been hankering for apple pie. My 'easy' baking staples are fruit cobbler and brownies but there's something so deliciously 'fall' about hot, deep dish apple pie. The recipe I want to try is in my storage unit, but I have to go there anyway because I need my cold weather clothes, too.
On to marriage stuff...
H has pulled back a bit, not alarmingly so. Between his mother and the breakup with OW, he's got a lot to deal with emotionally. Things in the bedroom are good. In addition to that, he seeks me out for cuddling and physical comfort, which I am happy to provide. We watch movies together about twice a week. He still seeks me out after work or after kidlet goes to bed for 15-20 mins of talking, so that's keeping my love tank full even though he's pulled back some in the QT department.
This morning, I dragged myself out of bed early to grab a shower. Most of this week, we've cuddled too long in the mornings, then had to rush to get out the door. He showered after me and caught me eyeing him as he passed by all squeaky clean.
Dia: Are you clean?
H: I'm cleeen! (a riff on "Are You Being Served")
Dia (following after H down the hall): I want to experience this 'clean' you speak of.
H: Uh oh! <walks faster>
Dia: <chases>
I chased him into the closet and we made out like teenagers for about 60 seconds.
He still does not offer verbal ILY's, though I get it in squeezes. He is opening up more and more about stuff in general, though he's keeping his reactions about OW and his mom somewhat bottled. Not entirely, mind you - but somewhat.
He had coffee with a female friend Wednesday, someone I know and am comfortable with, but even so he reassured me that there wouldn't be any kissy-face, just catch-up over coffee. I thanked him for letting me know and told him he was welcome to invite her for dinner that night after coffee.
Both of us are still doing really well with thanking and appreciating each other for the stuff we each do. I am making a conscious effort, and I think he is as well. I am also still complimenting and praising him here and there, letting him know he is valued and desired. I still get the feeling that we're tiptoeing around land mines sometimes, but I guess that natural.
dia
I could sure use your insight. My wife is pulling further away from me.
My situation is getting more and more hopeless. I am not sure what to do at this point.
I fear that after our BK date she is going to serve me with papers.
more...
Housework.
I'm doing most of it. That's ok. H ADMITS IT!!! That's astounding. We've fallen behind with the dishes over the last week or two (no dishwasher), esp. with my crazy work schedule. Tonight on the deck H said,
H: You've been doing all of the housework lately. Thank you. I haven't done a thing this week and that needs to change.
Folks, this is huge. I'm not doing any more housework than I was before I left. In fact, I'm doing less. But before I left, H was telling me HE was doing it all, and I wasn't doing enough.
/cue David Bowie
Ch-ch-ch-changes!
Maturity. So why not put in a dishwasher since he stands to inherit the house someday? (although you guys could be in your 70's before that happens).
We've discussed a kitchen remodel but there are issues that go beyond his mother potentially disinheriting him, such as:
1) The house dates to the 1800s, and not in a good way. There is no real foundation under most of the house. We're on post and piers.
2) The current kitchen couldn't fit a dishwasher w/o losing cabinet space which there already isn't enough of.
3) Neither the plumbing nor the electrical would be suitable for a dw.
Best case scenario - we are given control of the house either de facto or legal ownership. We do a one-wall remodel, adding a bit of space (not too much), making the space we have work better and adding an in-law unit for FIL. The house is built into a hillside, so an in-law unit could easily go under the current deck and connect to the half-basement.
I understand completely. The silverware drawer in my kitchen fell apart soon after we bought the house. That necessitated a $20,000. redo of the kitchen. Of course, it was ugly then and it's beautiful now.
Dia takes on the Master closet!!
With H's permission, I am dragging everything out of his closet. It's stuffed to bursting with stuff he never wears, doesn't fit, is garishly ugly, etc. His mom is a thrift store shopper, so every so often piles of stuff will show up. It's perfectly good stuff, really, expect that it's wayyy too big or isn't his style. It's not the thrift store part I mind, either, it's the accumulation of stuff that just sits in a pile taking up room.
So now there are nice, neat piles on the big bed: collared golf shirts, t-shirts, turtlenecks and sweaters, outerwear jackets, button-up cloth shirts. I only counted 2 piles. 30 t-shirts. 17 golf shirts. And that's not counting anything that's folded in drawers or in the laundry. How many t-shirts does a person need, anyway?
He's agreed to whittle each pile down to about 5 items, and if he does it, it will eliminate more than half the bulk in that closet. Woo Hoo!
Then Dia can have closet space again. Yayyy!
A small house and this cussed recession have gone a long way toward helping us realize the 'less is more' philosophy.
(and having moved 4x in two years, I have already pared my own wardrobe down to similar standards.)
Hey, Dia,
Just a quick note to tell you how helpful, enlightening and outright hilarious your posts have been for me. Just commented over at O'Dog's about your recent give and take with Antlers about self worth.
You are one smart, insightful and fun lady who has a very lucky husband.
Thanks for everything.
Thank you, Gardener.
I was afraid I'd come off sounding patronizing over there, so glad to hear it went over well. I hope H agrees with you on the 'lucky' part.
It's kind of funny - in the 1.5 years of counseling, we talked precious little about my M but I've learned so much with all the other stuff we covered that it's made my skills for being in a M so much stronger. It's improved my work skills as well, and it's all about having and stating boundaries, and dealing with conflict.
In the whole issue with our accountant, she griped to the CEO that 'it wasn't fair' that she's working 80-100 hours and I'm only working 50-60 when things get hairy. Well, that's because I told the CEO point blank that while I would pitch in and work extra when there was a need, I would also set limits and push back when I needed to. And I diplomatically let the CEO know that if pushing back was a problem, this wasn't going to be a good fit employment-wise. I will also tell the CEO things like "I can't do X *and* Y by that deadline, so which one do you want?"
So as far as I'm concerned, if the accountant doesn't want to work 80 hours, all she has to do is... not do it! Fair doesn't come into it. I will not sacrifice my physical, emotional or familial health for a job. If accountant chooses to do so, that's her choice.
Hi Dia
All still sounding wonderful. I have taken on board your cooking prowess and Friday night prepared a lovely slow cooked mediterannean lamb shank and vegetable dish with a nice wine, ran him a bath and gave him a back rub. I am keeping up with the making H feel needed and respected for what he does for the family putting in the 70+ hour weeks for us.
Serious girlfomoz. That's the way to do it.
Dia,
I've had to work with 80 hour a week types from time to time. Just do your own work well and don't get into comparisons. Life is a balance; a wheel if you like. Work, home, self, marriage (sigh), family. Keep the wheel round.
Dia,
Just wanted to stop by and say hello. I liked the post you had regarding self worth.
Sounds like everything continues to move in the right direction with you and your M.
Dia, I have dropped by your thread to ask for help. I have had the opportunity to read through all of your posts (it has taken sometime) and now find myself in a sitch where my wife is having an EA and probably a PA. Could you stop by and take a look and provide some fo your great advice. I believe we are closing in on the end of the marriage as she says divorce papers are ready .
Thanks! SSGA
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1838839#Post1838839
FYI - work is still intense. No (maybe minimal) OT, but my days will be chock full this week just getting everything done. Continued apologies for my infrequent posting.
And yeah, that idea that I had that this would be a nice quiet week of uninterrupted work time? NOT!! Last two days the printer in FL has called me as soon as their doors open in the morning despite my reminders that I am on PST. Sigh!
Can I refill your coffee? How about something from the deli?
More than one actual conversation:
"So what time is it up there in AK?"
"4:00am"
OMG! Venti Latte Breve, half-caff and a chocolate croissant! No, wait - if they have the gingerbread latte, get that. And maybe a chicken salad sammich....
I don't know about all women, but when I'm stressed and overwhelmed, if someone offers to take care of me like that it's a godsend. I'm ok stress-wise this week, though my morale is a bit down after 4 weeks of crunch time.
Dia's guilty secret - When I had to prep for my field exams or work on my dissertation, I did it at a local coffee shop where the staff knew me and fussed over me. Alternatively, if I need to write for something like 8 hrs a day for several days, I hop on a Holland America cruise ship going up or down the coast. Sooooo productive, and so relaxing at the same time.
Dia, I am with you on that one, feeling the stress at work at present setting up a new department, overwhelmed is an understatement. I too like to be looked after when in those situations. But alas, I am not.
My CEO and VP just got back from a week and a half of combined trade show and vacation travel. 5 mins after they walked in the door, we had the following convo:
VP: Did you ship the materials to the training location?
Dia: No. When I called the client to confirm the address, they told me to ship to their office instead.
VP: But their office isn't the training location.
Dia: Yes, I know. They told me not to ship them to the training location. They wanted them in their office.
VP: But we always ship to the training location!!
Dia (sycophantically): Ok, we always ship to the training location.
So we hang up.
10 mins later he calls back.
VP: OMG OMG - There's a voicemail from the training coordinator. The training address in the printed materials is WRONG! There's a different building/room number but she didn't give it to me. Get her on the phone first thing tomorrow.
Dia: Gee, I'm glad I didn't ship the materials to the training location...
*HEADDESK*
H and I are currently ignoring the kidlet who is in full-blown tantrum mode. His previous school had not yet taught cursive handwriting. His new school taught it two years ago and now expects everyone to write in cursive. So we've been working on cursive at home. This morning was the first where he was supposed to do a particular assignment in cursive, and he is having a meltdown over it.
Now that the meltdown is in progress, H feels that we can't back down and need to ignore the tantrum. My position is that a stressful and unpleasant task which is already known to provoke balky behavior should not be saved for the morning when everyone is getting ready to go out the door.
Sigh.
I absolutely do not approve of the tantrum, but this was so preventable.
Temper tantrums at work, too. Double sigh. The work ones are harder to ignore.
So let me get this right. I don't need eharmony or match. I just hang out near the pool with a big stack of fluffy towels?
"Can I refresh your drink? Was that a pina colada you were enjoying?"
Odog, I've been short on time to read or post. But regardless of not knowing the back story ------ H*ll yes this would work for me! And make mine a Strawberry Pina Colado if you would.
This weekend is going to be interesting. My in-laws are coming. They're not staying with us. They're staying at the D's house while the D's are travelling.
I anticipate that they will want to see H and kidlet.
I anticipate that I will not be included an anything the 4 of them do together.
I anticipate that if MIL has decided to evict us (and if FIL has decided to knuckle under to her), we will be given notice this weekend.
Anybody got advice for this? Should I allow H to allow his mother to exclude me from family functions? For myself, I'm content to let it slide this weekend and this holiday season. Give MIL time to cool down. I also think that even nutjobs have the right to decide with whom they will or will not associate, so if I'm persona non grata, that's ok and I'll go do my thing elsewhere.
My father thinks this is completely inappropriate and that H and FIL should draw a line together and insist that I be included and treated like family, with civility if not with warmth. My father also thinks that H should be the one to explain to kidlet if I am not welcome at the HFOO compound for the holidays. If I do it, no matter how fair and accurate I am, I will be seen as badmouthing/ poisoning kidlet against Gramma H.
What does anybody think?
And for the record, I already told kidlet that Gramma H was angry with me and didn't want to see me or talk to me. As for why, I said Gramma H thought the divorce was my fault and she was angry that I hurt Daddy's feelings.
Should I allow H to allow his mother to exclude me from family functions?
No. Nor should your man even entertain such a possibility.
Give MIL time to cool down.
From what you've written in the past, this passive-aggressive, controlling 'nutjob' will never cool down.
I also think that even nutjobs have the right to decide with whom they will or will not associate, so if I'm persona non grata, that's ok and I'll go do my thing elsewhere.
And if my woman were persona non grata, I would consider my parents to be the same and end the visit or I'd leave them and go be personas non grata with my wife and do our thing together.
I know, it's easy to say when it's not your own dysfunctional FOO that's at issue. Still, that's my take from this distance, Dia.
My father thinks this is completely inappropriate and that H and FIL should draw a line together and insist that I be included and treated like family, with civility if not with warmth.
Your dad's right and saying this might also be his way of wondering out loud if H and FIL have any giblets.
My father also thinks that H should be the one to explain to kidlet if I am not welcome at the HFOO compound for the holidays.
H should explain to kidlet that if Dia is not welcome at the HFOO compound for the holidays, the three of us are going to stick together as a family and consider none of us welcome at the compound. You three are the family.
And for the record, I already told kidlet that Gramma H was angry with me and didn't want to see me or talk to me. As for why, I said
Gramma is a mean, rotten, controlling old hag! 
(how's
that?).
Good night, kiddo.
OMG, Gardener - I laughed, nay, cackled!, right out loud at that!!
Nighters!
Hope you only laughed at the two funny parts (giblets and the hag).
I was dead serious on the rest.
ok, I think I've untangled this for the moment - again.
There are three people in this sitch, hence three decisions.
I have stated to H and FIL that I am willing to repair the relationship. That's a decision I get to make.
MIL is entitled to invite or not invite who she pleases to her home for the holidays. That's a decision she gets to make.
And then H gets to decide how he will deal with the whole mess. That's his decision.
If H want sto discuss this with me, I will discuss it, but I need to be careful to to be or seem controlling along the lines of 'making him not let her exclude me.'
They're his giblets so he needs to wear them.
Yep. Keep an eye on them giblets and you may find out which woman/which family is more important to him (or at least if he's outgrown his FOO's twisted drama dynamic.
Gardener. Must. Sleep.
Tomorrow, sweetie.
For myself, I'm content to let it slide this weekend and this holiday season. Give MIL time to cool down.
I this is a good idea. You've got enough to contend with given the very-fresh reconciliation/departure of OW without throwing gasoline on FOO flames at this exact moment.
My father also thinks that H should be the one to explain to kidlet if I am not welcome at the HFOO compound for the holidays.
On this, I agree with your dad.
Regarding people's decisions ... that's very noble of you. Don't forget that among those available decisions is your freedom (in my opinion, responsiblity) to let your husband know if it makes you feel sad, hurt, or second-tier if he continues to be all fine (overtly or covertly) with you being excluded in the future.
I agree with Kett here, and Gardener. They both had great things to say.
Personally I have a little complex from my M about being on the back burner and valued less than the career/blood-family, etc... So my opinion is probably a little tainted, but I think that he needs to decide if he will allow his mother to decide with whom his loyalties lie. Maybe not this season, but at some point he should stand up for his wife.
OK...everyone hum some Paul Stookey with me...
A man shall leave his MOTHER__and a woman_leave her home___
They shall travel on to where__the two shall be as one___
(sorry, couldn't resist!)
Silverado
I don't know the whole dynamic here, but I agree with Kett here. I think it is good to trust your H to handle this. He has been doing many things right and this is a sticky situation for him. He needs to try to smooth things over with MIL. He may think that engaging her on her terms is the best way to do it (note: I didn't say he is right, I don't know). But, I am guessing he is doing it with the best intentions. Let him try it his way, it is his mother.
For myself, I'm content to let it slide this weekend and this holiday season. Give MIL time to cool down.
I this is a good idea. You've got enough to contend with given the very-fresh reconciliation/departure of OW without throwing gasoline on FOO flames at this exact moment.
Good point, Kett.
(((((Dia)))))
I think you have it figured out pretty well. Eventually, it is a battle that has to be fought, but this year might not be the time. In the end, I think he needs to stand up for you, and stand up to his mom. But he might not be able to do that yet. I think it would be a step forward if he was able to just tell you that he doesn't agree with what she is doing, but doesn't feel that he can fight it right now. It's not ideal, but it's a step in the right direction.
Thanks, everyone.
Here's how the sitch is playing down so far.
H and I were working on house reorganization projects together today, and he called his aunt to see if she wanted a particular dining table. It became immediately apparent that Aunt was out for breakfast with MIL, FIL, SIL and baby. We knew MIL and FIL were going to be in town this week, but we'd not been told they had arrived, and, obviously, none of us were invited to breakfast.
We let it lie and went back to our projects.
Later in the day, H got a call from his sister. The phone got passed around, eventually to MIL who wanted just H and kidlet to come spend the day at the fairgounds with them. (There's a Halloween festival going on.)
H asked kidlet and kidlet wanted to go.
Dia: Go and have a good time with your family. I'm not angry with your mother. I understand how she feels. I think the intensity of it is way over the top, but I get it. And she has the right to choose with whom she associates.
H: Thank you for being so generous. If kidlet didn't want to go, I wouldn't be going. Hopefully we won't have to put up with the bullsh*t for very long.
Dia: Hmm, thank you. It's good to know that's what you think it is.
H: Yes, it's bull----. I love my mother, but I also love Andra. Both of these creatures hurt people. (Andra is our pissy, alpha female, Siamese divatude cat.)
Dia: <nods> Thank you. If kidlet asks why I'm not going, you need to be the one to tell him. If I do it, I'll be accused of poisoning him against Gramma H.
H: I doubt he'll ask, but that's reasonable.
Dia: One more thing please. Don't lie. No "Mom wanted to stay home." (I am not the one misbehaving, and I'm not going to let myself be used as a cover story for her BS.)
He looked surprised, but like he hadn't thought it through that far, not like he'd been planning to lie and was caught.
H: That's a reasonable concern. I will tell him that Gramma H only wanted him and me.
H thinks that I
will be invited (if not precisely welcome) for the holidays, but if not, he'll deal with it then.
His mother said she wanted the table, and I packed up some of kidlet's old blocks to be given to SIL's baby, including a note to SIL. Kidlet will have a good time at the festival, and he's been missing Gramma H, so he'll enjoy some time with her, too.
And H confirmed that yes, his giblets are intact and still in his possession.
afterthought
It's strange and unusual - and just a little uncomfortable - to have a husband who's got my back. It's weird, like suddenly waking up and having a tail - you don't see it most of the time but there's just this 'feeling' that it's there.
I'm sure I'll get used to it, and I most defiinitely like it - but it's all just a little weird atm.
Wise conversation re MIL Dia. I think you handled that delicate conversation carefully and ensured H's sensitivity to the Dia/MIL relationship. This will be helpful as the situation with MIL plays out.
Dia,
Great, great, great. Your mature response, H's performance, giblets, tail, and all.
Bravos and bravas all around!
((()))
Dia, Don't think I've posted to you before, but wanted to say that I'm following along and your sitch makes me
Hi, all,
And welcome, Hope.
Ok, question for the board...
Both of us have gifts from the OPs in our possession. I'm not talking about expensive watches, lingerie or major jewelry, I'm talking books and non-sexy pajamas.
OM never bought me major gifts, but most of them have found their way to thrift stores. What's remaining are two cookbooks and two pairs of mundane pajamas.
H and I were sorting through cookbooks as we rearranged the kitchen shelves, and when I put the OM cookbooks on the shelf H remarked that he'd never seen those before. This was actually unconscious on my part. I don't have a huge attachment to them, and it had even slipped my mind that that's where they'd come from until he mentioned never seeing them before.
I immediately looked at him and said...
Dia: You know, OM gave those to me for Christmas. I'll put them in the giveaway box.
H (taking my hands): They can stay. I accept you. He is a part of your past, and in accepting you, I accept him and them, too.
His response is a little mind-boggling for me. While sorting through the cookbooks, I found one I'm virtually certain OW gave him. I was nowhere nears as magnanimous in my thoughts as he was with me. I put the book in the giveaway box and he didn't retrieve it.
I think the cookbooks and the jammies need to go, regardless of his generous statement. I'm not going to comb through the house looking for possible gifts of hers to make him get rid of, but these items will remind *me* of OM every time I touch them.
What do you folks think?
I think your H could not have given a more perfect answer or handled the deal with the cookbooks any better than what he did. However, I don't think any PJ's would be worth the risk of appearing to be insensitive to your H's feelings. He may wonder why you were hanging on to some PJ's another man gave you. And, seeing you wear them might not set as well as knowing you have cookbooks setting on a shelf. Can't look at PJ's with the same eyes as you do cookbooks....know what I mean? Even though your H sounds fantastic, it just seems inappropriate....even if they aren't sexy. JMHO.
Dia,
That was rather magnanimous and accepting on H's part.
Dump them.
Hi Dia
My humble opinion for what it is worth is to give the gifts away. If it were me, I would want a reminder of the past in the house, you are moving forward into a new relationship with your H and I personally feel it is better to remove these things that represent an OM or OW. Others may disagree but that is just my opinion.
Thats very thoughtful.
Reminds me of a quote from the book fightclub
"You buy furniture. You tell yourself, this is the last sofa I will ever need in my life. Buy the sofa, then for a couple years you're satisfied that no matter what goes wrong, at least you've got your sofa issue handled. Then the right set of dishes. Then the perfect bed. The drapes. The rug. Then you're trapped in your lovely nest, and the things you used to own, now they own you."
From Gima's Thread;
Board hiccup - nothing to see here, duplicate post. Move along
Dia, I had to drag this over here from Gima's. You are one funny lady!
Thanks, folks. I concur - they need to go. While I was sorting cookbooks, I found a hand copied recipe for "OW's Meatloaf" in H's handwriting. Grrrr!
I folded it in half and tucked it into his socks/underwear drawer where he put the photos of her when he took them off the wall. Eventually, I will ask him to get rid of them. Not just yet, tho. They're fine out of sight in the drawer.
I might be jumping the gun in my sitch, but I know my W has received various gifts from OM, and I find myself pondering how I'll broach that subject should we eventually get to the point where it's relevant. I agree with Coach, they have to go, but I sympathise with you. It's a conversation I'm not looking forward to.
Get rid of them. Don't need those reminders hanging around.
My W still has 2 things from OM, a glass he bought her while on vacation with his family and directions he sent her to his new place after he left the area.
W has agreed to get rid of the glass, has it in a bag at work to bring home so I can DESTROY it. I don't think she even remembers the directions are in her purse so if I said anything to her about them, she'd not like it that I was in her purse (and I haven't been for about 6 months), so that one is touchy.
She still has her favorite pair of A undies that NEED to go. W recognizes what they do to me just seeing them and hasn't warn them in probably 9 months, but they're still in her undies drawer.
The nice thing is that she DOES finally recognize that those are things that really affect me and has agreed to get rid of them.
Ok, that was an awful long way to say get rid of them.
H (taking my hands): They can stay. I accept you. He is a part of your past, and in accepting you, I accept him and them, too.
I would first acknowlege the spirit of this appreciatively and as being true and workable for him, and then go on to say something that expresses this --
I think the cookbooks and the jammies need to go, regardless of his generous statement. I'm not going to comb through the house looking for possible gifts of hers to make him get rid of, but these items will remind *me* of OM every time I touch them.
-- as being *your* truth, then act accordingly.
So nobody can, in the absence of open communication, get the impression that anyone is feeling pressured or P/A guilted into anything.
Dia,
How you doin' today, kiddo?
Hi, Gardener, and thanks for stopping in, everyone.
How am I today? Grrrr. Job stress. I've put in 4 weeks of overtime and got hit from two side today with, "Why isn't thins thing done??! I gave it to you 3 weeks ago!!"
I keep thinking that 'crunch time' is over - and then today I did another 8:45 - 6:30 no lunch, no breaks day.
I'm tired, frustrated, mildly blue and I need a shower.
Dia,
Tough day, Take that shower and get thee to bed, girl!
H is being good to me. He was on his computer and I wandered in and out a few times for this and that. He made supper (usu. my job) and I thanked him for it.
Then I realized that the wandering in and out was me being fatigued and on autopilot for when I want time with him. Ooops.
Dia: <walks up to H at computer> I want *you*.
H: <looks at me, looks at computer, then back to me> I will come and sit with you.
So we laid on the hammock and brain dumped while looking at the stars. 15 - 20 mins later, I felt much better. Not back to 100%, but better.
I'm going to check out for the night - read a book in bed, go to sleep early. I also need to change my cell phone ring. It's burned into my thoughts and I keep thinking/dreaming I hear it. And true to form, my phone rang while I was typing that! (It was my mother.)
Glad to hear things are going nicely for you Dia, you are being very open to letting H deal with things his own way, a good example for all of us who have spent too long saying "you dont wanna do it like that" Im a very guilty culprit on that front!
Hi Dia
Feel for you on the work front. Hope it all eases for you soon. Take care of yourself.
Today was more sane. Hopefully the rest of the week will be as well. <Dia touches wood>
Got my first ever apology from H for the hurtful stuff he did when we were in our death spiral. It was tentative and uncertain, but he said the words. Not for the A, but for the stuff leading up to it. (e.g. "When you didn't spend any time with me but still wanted sex, even to the point of waking me up in the middle of the night for it, I felt like you didn't care about *me* and all you wanted was a f^&#$. I felt like all that other stuff you were doing was more important - and much more enjoyable - than me.")
We also had a *good* R talk this morning and last night about the following:
1) Our respective uncomfortable feelings with the other person's respective family over the holidays.
2) Preliminary plans for how to deal with the aforementioned people and ensuing travel arrangements
3) The need for and logisitics of how to balance self-time vs. together time w/o anyone feeling a) smothered, or b) neglected.
There were lots of potential resentments and insecurities flying about, but I think we did well. h even contacted me midday today to say he'd been thinking about stuff I said this morning - always a good sign from him (means he actually listened
).
<thumbs up>
It sounds like you are addressing this stuff *as a team* now, rather than a collision of clashing agendas. Kudos.
Morning Dia!
Seems like the pair of you are doing very well.
Number three on your list is a big one (personal view) - balancing potential insecurities. You'll manage because you and H have your heads screwed on straight
YAY!!!!! Life's good
Mac
It's so nice to see that families can get through this.
Thank you for sharing. I think that so many people stop coming here and sharing their story when things start to work out.
It's nice to see how things can go if you work through it. It gives incentive not to give up for the rest of us.
Thanks for inspiring...
Dia, sounds like you two are doing real well. That's great.
There were lots of potential resentments and insecurities flying about, but I think we did well.
The word resentment caught my eye, here and I thought I'd pass along two thoughts: one general and one personal.
1)I read recently (I forget where), "Being resentful is like taking poison every day hoping your enemy will die."
2) During much ruminating about my death-spiraling marriage these past couple of days, I thought of a number of resentments I had begun harboring towards wife during (what
I thought was) the relatively short, somewhat-disconnected period between us pre-bomb. Somehow it hit me that while some, if not all, of the "stuff" I resented her for was real, I was actually deflecting and redirecting
resentments I felt toward myself: resenting my not speaking out about the "stuff", resenting my own aversion to conflict by keeping the "stuff" inside, etc. Resenting my own inaction, head-in-the-sand passivity and lack of taking the lead.
Don't know if that makes any sense; it seems difficult to articulate adequately, but to me it was like the scales falling from Saul's eyes.
And deserves more reflection and examination. When we resent someone's actions could it be that it's
always a disguised resentment of our
own inaction and
non-response to it?
Even though my reading your resentment reference brought it to the fore, I probably should have posted this ramble on my own thread...
But, As long as I'm here, young lady...my place is a mess! What's this I heard about a
party after I left Tuesday night....?
Quick hide Gardener is back!
Hi Dia,
When you have a minute please would you mind catching up with my sitch and adding your 2c in light of what Gucci has posted?
Thanks,
Cas
Lot's of little updates...
Finances - we have been tippy-toeing into financial discussions. We still have separate bank accounts, but we are slowly divvying up financial responsibilities. He funds his own IRA.
He pays for the hardcore living expenses - rent, utilities, various insurance products.
I pay for about 95% of the groceries, most of the meals out and most of the family outings. I handle contributions to kidlet's college fund, my own IRA and that alleged 6-months liquid savings that everyone is supposed to have.
Before we officially reconciled, I was paying $200/month toward health insurance, but in light of my other contributions, we've decided that's not necessary.
Essentially, he pays living expenses and I handle investments and play money. I buy groceries because I'm the cook. This arrangement is working for a couple of reasons. 1) We're still feeling, and therefore being, somewhat cautious about blending our lives and hence our finances back together. 2) The division reflects our temperaments. H likes to feel like the breadwinner, the guy who keeps the roof over our heads, keeps us warm and safe, etc. Me, I'm the adventurous one. I like exploring food and travel. I like like researching investments, watching the market and feeling the rewards of watching the numbers (hopefully) climb. To H, this sort of research, whether travel or financial, is tedious, unrewarding work.
Holidays - we're spending Thanksgiving night down by my folks, then heading home sometime on Friday. His family hasn't made their plans yet, so H said we needed to make ours and not wait on them. His family wants to have a big to-do up in Ojai, so we'll do what we can to get H and kidlet there (and me, too, if I'm invited - which I doubt) once we find out when and where it's happening.
We've pretty much acknowledged that everybody is feeling uncomfortable about the holidays in varying degrees. We're handling it well, my family is handling it well, and people on H's side - except his mom - seem to be handling it well, too.
My family has a recent death to remind them that it's unwise to let resentments continue to simmer, and that family conflicts are best dealt with up-front.
QT, PT and getting our needs met - we're having some productive growing pains in this area. H has a need for uninterrupted headspace, for being able to work on or focus on things w/o a kid bouncing around, a wife chatting at him, etc. When he doesn't get that during the early evening, it leaves him feeling stressed and over-stimulated. The result is that he seeks it during the late evening, after kidlet goes to bed, getting on his computer, putting on his heavy-duty, noise-blocking headphones and satisfying his inner introvert.
I get this because I'm an introvert, too. For him, it would be absolutely fine for us each to pursue our own ends most evenings, and then to fall into bed when we're done, make passionate love and fall asleep. His LL is PT, so this works for him. My LL, however, is QT, so over a long period of time, this does NOT work for me.
Today, for instance, H wanted to work on his programming projects. The office juts off our dining room, and there is a double-wide doorway with no door. If I'm rattling about in the kitchen, it sometimes bothers him. Kidlet chattering, asking him random questions, me walking by enroute to the bathroom then blowing my nose - all of these break his concentration and frustrate the beejeezus out of him.
We had a good talk about it today. For his part, he readily admits that the answer is NOT to make us tippy-toe around him. We have as much right to do our normal activities as he does to have quiet, un-interrupted headspace. I'd suggested it before, but today H finally agreed that what he needs simply isn't going to happen in the current office location. It's too public, and it's in one of the major traffic paths of the house. H isn't happy about giving up the nice windows with the ocean view, but the inability to concentrate has finally trumped the view. H will be moving his office into kidlet's old room and I will take the office off the dining room. Interruptions bother me less, so this should result that utilitarian ideal of the most good for the most people.
Circling back around to QT for Dia, H can't give me adequate QT until he recharges his introvert batteries. This isn't diva behavior; it's just how he's wired. Hence, improving the quality of his introvert space enables the conditions *he* needs in order to give me what *I* need.
We've been struggling with this for a good two weeks. We've not had a movie night in that long, and mostly what I've been getting are 15-20 min chat sessions during dinner, or in-between when he gets home and when he heads to his office. Those 15 min sessions are great as maintenance. They provide just enough to stem the outright draining of my tank. But they're not enough in the big-picture sense. I need 1-2 hours of time on a weekly basis, and something like an afternoon outing together once a month.
Both of us are intuitive, idea-people, so getting down to concrete, nuts-and-bolts statements of what we need is both different and good for us. "I need more time" isn't all that helpful. I need to understand and then communicate the specifics in order to get what I need from him.
Also, while it might be different if we weren't so freshly reconciled, the two weeks of maintenance-only QT has had a predictable effect on my sex drive. When I don't get my QT, I'm not as interested in sex and I'm less willing to respond to advances. If he games til 2 am and wants to fool around when he comes to bed, nuthin' doing. It makes me feel like I'm 2nd best after his computer. It's not at all a conscious tit-for-tat thing, though, it's very much and under the radar withdrawing.
Here's another way we handle the various situations above. Next weekend, I'm taking kidlet to see some extended family who are visiting my folks from out-of-state. This satisfies everybody. Kidlet gets to see my parents, his great-grandfather and a host of great-aunts and cousins. This pleases me, my mother and the afore-mentioned extended family. Filial obligations are met which keeps me in my mother's good graces. Sunday and Monday, kidlet are going to Disneyland, which is pure fun for both of us. We're both QT people, and we really like our Mom-and-Kidlet adventures, something we discovered big-time during the separation. And H - what does he get? Almost 4 entire days of an empty house - pure heaven.
As a personality researcher, overlaying the LL thing onto my general understanding of introversion has been extremely insightful. I'm an introvert, too, so why has it been such a big deal to get quality time out of H? The difference is in the LLs and how we get our primary emotional needs met. Great stuff, Maynard!
ok, enough rambling for now.
Cheers,
Dia
Recharging the introvert batteries. Ah yes. Those of you wired differently must understand this about us.
Hi Dia
One thing I need to work out is my H's LL. I really should get a hold of that book it might go a long way to sorting some other issues out.
Dia. I hope you have a blast at Disneyland. I love anything Disney. I am so happy for your continued discussions and understanding that the old wasn't so hot and the new needs to be different to avoid the old crud. (And keep the new hot by extension.)
Alas, still baby steps here but good and steady progress. My biggest problems are hormonal, peri-menopausal hell actually, and impatience.
Dia,
When you get a chance, can you check your inbox in the alt? I have had some developments, and I need your help with a question.
Thanks.
Hi Dia, I hope that you have a great time at Disney, Ive never been, but I think that it would be a blast, even more fun with a kiddo!
Hi, folks,
Sorry for dropping off the face of the planet.
1) My laptop gave up the ghost. It is pining for the fjords. It is an ex-laptop. etc. No data loss, and I am functional on a desktop system now but the migration isn't complete and chaos still reigns.
2) I am still working 50 - 60 hour weeks and it isn't going to stop until the end of the year. Sigh. It is wearing on me, kidlet and hubby, too. We're coping, well, but it's getting very old.
The trip to Disney with kidlet was fantabulous. I left a few hours early on a Friday (after a 55 hr week), visited family, spent Sun and Mon at Disney, then came back and worked 60 hours in 4 days. Arrrggggh!
We are fine in the reconciliation department - continuing to work through the assortment of issues as we can given my ugly work schedule.
I have a few mins, so I'm going to do some drive-by reading up on your various sitches.
Thanks to those of you who checked in on me in the alt. It's appreciated!
I'm so delighted to hear everything is good; now I can stop stalking you! (Hope it wasn't too annoying.)
Have you started job hunting yet? (Only partly joking. 60 hour weeks are inimical to healthy relationships, IMHO.)
Good to hear from you Dia, and that things are going well. Don't disappear like that
.
Oh, and about the laptop, you know the drill. Detach. It'll come out of its fog, and at least you kept your (data) integrity. Worst case, you just need to GAL (get another laptop).
Dia!
Great to hear from you.
Great to hear about you ('ceptin' of course, the horrendous work hours).
Keep going, Girl!
The work sitch is being adversely impacted by the CEO's wedding, which is spilling over into *everything*. We're a small company, and most of us work from home, so when the CEO is blotto crazy, we'ALL blotto crazy.
The Weddding (it has caps now) is Dec 13. I will give this until the first of the year to calm down, then stronger and stronger measures will be taken up to and including me looking elsewhere for employment.
On the upside, I like the CEO, I love the company's raison d'etre and the company values are pretty sound. Execution - um, not so much. But execution can be fixed, and that's part of why I was hired. I'ma s'posed to be takin' ovah, iff'n ya know what I meen.
There is already talk of getting me an assistant, but we don't even have time for a search until after The Wedding. And yes, I have ended up doing stuff for The Wedding.
Hey, it pays the bills.
Good to hear from you Dia, and that things are going well. Don't disappear like that
.
Oh, and about the laptop, you know the drill. Detach. It'll come out of its fog, and at least you kept your (data) integrity. Worst case, you just need to GAL (get another laptop).
ROFLMAO!!!!
I'm on a verra nice desktop at present. See, I was never meant to be faithful to just one system. And besides, the laptop was a brick. Huge, heavy, and with its capabilities choked off by an underpowered processor. What can I say? It was cheap, and at the time I didn't need Laptop Right. I needed Laptop Right Now.
I was subsequently seduced by a netbook with a for-real graphics card. Yes, for you tech-wonks, I have an ASUS N10J which I got from NewEgg as an open box special for u nder $500. It will play Lord of the Rings Online. It is the size of a large paperback novel and it weighs 2lbs including the adapter. It overclocks to about 2 gHz and it fits in my purse.
At my old work (where I was the boss and hence owned my desktop system), I had a nice desktop with a 22 inch screen, a big hard drive and a rockin' processor and graphics card. (I game. So sue me
)
Problem was, when the laptop unexpectedly succumbed to its hissy fit, the netbook and desktop were in boxes in storage units scattered over a 200 mile radius. (Hence the suddenness of my departure.) Sigh.
Laptop was an Everex StepNote. I hated it. I will never buy Everex again. I'm glad it's (mostly) dead. It wasn't a real crash. The screen stopped working - probably a loose wire but just as fatal as a crash for all intents and purposes. If you can't SEE your data, you can't manipulate your data.
Desktop is a Systemax refurb from Tiger Direct. I got a great deal and it works like a charm. I adore it. I will order Systemax again.
Netbook has been affectionately named 'Baby Precious', a Tolkein reference after a friend of mine began referring to her super-honker laptop as 'my Precious'.
Gardenerman understood every word of this right up to and including ROFLMAO!!!! (After that...not so much.)
Good to hear from you Dia, and that things are going well. Don't disappear like that
.
Oh, and about the laptop, you know the drill. Detach. It'll come out of its fog, and at least you kept your (data) integrity. Worst case, you just need to GAL (get another laptop).
ROFLMAO!!!!
I'm on a verra nice desktop at present. See, I was never meant to be faithful to just one system. And besides, the laptop was a brick. Huge, heavy, and with its capabilities choked off by an underpowered processor. What can I say? It was cheap, and at the time I didn't need Laptop Right. I needed Laptop Right Now.
I was subsequently seduced by a netbook with a for-real graphics card. Yes, for you tech-wonks, I have an ASUS N-10. It will play Lord of the Rings Online. It is the size of a large paperback novel and it weighs 2lbs including the adapter. It overclocks to about 2 gHz and it fits in my purse.
At my old work (where I was the boss and hence owned my desktop system), I had a nice desktop with a 22 inch screen, a big hard drive and a rockin' processor and graphics card. (I game. So sue me
)
Problem was, when the laptop unexpectedly succumbed to its hissy fit, the netbook and desktop were in boxes in storage units scattered over a 200 mile radius. (Hence the suddenness of my departure.) Sigh.
Laptop was an Everex StepNote. I hated it. I'm glad it's (mostly) dead. It wasn't a real crash. The screen stopped working - probably a loose wire but just as fatal as a crash for all intents and purposes. If you can't SEE your data, you can't manipulate your data.
Desktop is a Systemax refurb from Tiger Direct. I got a great deal and it works like a charm. I adore it. I will order Systemax again.
Netbook has been affectionately named 'Baby Precious', a Tolkein reference after a friend of mine began referring to her super-honker laptop as 'my Precious'.
Hi stranger!!
Glad to hear from you. And gald everything is going well for you.
Diiiiiiaaaa!!!!
Oh it's so nice to hear from you. Overworked IT people unite.
I'm posting on Surviving the Big D. Stop by sometime.
I am making a pork roast tonight. It's a variation of the one I made when FIL, SIL and baby visited. The change is in the sweet and sour sauce. Instead of red wine vinegar, orange juice and white sugar, I am using balsamic vinegar, fresh squeezed mandarin lime juice and half Splenda-half brown sugar.
This is not a polite little sauce. If you want a polite little sauce, go do something with apricot jam, a bit of brandy and some nutmeg.
This is an acidic, intensely-flavored sauce with overtones of raisin, dried fig and mincemeat.
Here's a link to the rest of the recipe with the standard sauce. The only other change I make is to use 1/4 of the red pepper flakes and add paprika instead. Kidlet ain't too fond of red pepper flakes.
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sunny...cipe/index.html
So here's how Thanksgiving shook out...
Thurs morning before 8 am, we hit the road for the 200 mile drive to my folks place in the desert. Kidlet and I were upbeat, H was tense, both about the impending visit and a bit about the weather. I was driving and heavy winds were blowing the car around.
Once at my folks' place, however, things seemed fine. Not amazingly wonderful, but ok - ya know? My folks were welcoming, H was accomodating and helpful and I didn't feel any uncomfortable moments. He may have, but if he did, he didn't say so.
We stayed in a hotel instead of in the overcrowded condo, so that helped, too. It's nice to have a way out of the pressure cooker - makes everything a bit more bearable. With three young boys (Kidlet plus cousins ages 4 and 6), the television going and people trying to talk over it, my family can get quite loud. It's hard on us introverts who are susceptible to overstimulation. The hotel allowed us to retreat to some peace and quiet and then not go back over until we were braced for the sonic onslaught.
The 2nd day was my youngest nephew's birthday. That went well, too. We went to Chuck E. Cheese, which was less hellish than it could have been as it was Black Friday and most people were out shopping. We left at about 5:30 that night for a weekend to ourselves at home. H is napping while I cook supper, and kidlet is playing on his computer. H and I have a 'date' scheduled for tonight. We'll be watching The Libertine, with Johnny Depp. (We don't do that 'list' thing, but if we did, he'd be on it.)
H and I are very, VERY close and affectionate. This is very nice. My Mom and I are still guarded around one another but things seem fine with the rest of my family.
H's family made noise about having an extended family Thanksgiving dinner up in Ojai but plans never materialized. His sis and bro-in-law went to the husband's parernts' for dinner, which was a good thing as they experienced a major plumbing disaster, a turkey explosion and the FIL fell and broke an arm.
MIL and FIL went to Santa Monica, and as far as I know, didn't do anything at all Thanksgiving-ish. A small, niggling part of me wonders if I'm being blamed for their not having a proper Thanksgiving, but I told that part to go play in traffic.
Dia,
All - all - so wonderful to hear. I am so happy for you!
Wow! Are all 3 of these things related?
"His sis and bro-in-law went to the husband's parernts' for dinner, which was a good thing as they experienced a major plumbing disaster, a turkey explosion and the FIL fell and broke an arm." Sounds like a Thanksgiving to remember!
Well, apparently the turkey explosion happened while BIL was laying prone under the kitchen sink trying to fix said plumbing issue. The fall was related to the turkey explosion (just how does one get a Thanksgiving turkey to explode in the oven, anyway?), whether out of startlement or slippery floor, I'm not certain. I'm just glad SIL and BIL were there to help!
Hi, folks,
H and I just came out of a 2-hr long R-talk and I could use your thoughts on resources for helping H learn how to validate my feelings. He feels the talk, while horrid and uncomfortable as to the topics, was very successful. While I said what I needed to say, I didn't feel heard.
The talk started when H very perceptively asked me if I feel like I get enough time or attention from my mother. Then it did the thing where it ranges all over creation. Eventually, we got on the topic of his mother and the possibility that we might have to move out. To make a long story short, I suggested that if he were able to honestly say some variation of the following to his mother, that it might lead to a softening of her position against me/the reconciliation:
"Mom, there were valid reasons why Dia left. I had an alcohol problem, and I had an inappropriate relationship with her best friend."
Of course, the 'honestly' part would mean that he would have to *agree* with the statement above, so the R talk focused on those two issues, namely the alcohol and the R with XBFF.
There were a number of places of concern for me in the convo. I still see minimizing of the alcohol-related behaviors. I do not see an alcohol problem at present at all, but I still see some defensive sweeping-under-the-rug. I still see a lot of blame of me for things. For example, at one point I was marking bottles so as to get a facts-based version of how much/how often he was drinking. For my part, I really did want the facts. He was telling the MC that he drank far less and far less often than I believed he was, and when I said I thought it was more, I was accused of exaggerating - hence my marking of the bottles. It wasn't so I could be 'right'. It was to find out if maybe I *was* exaggerating. Well, to him, the only reason I marked the bottles was that I was out to get him and I was case-building so I could build up enough pretext to leave.
These beliefs on his part only fuel the perception on the part of many people, including his mother, that the break-up was all Dia's fault. By leaving that perception unchallenged, he is tacitly reinforcing it. If we're going to make headway with his mother, he needs to own his [censored] and let his mother know he contributed to the downfall.
Re: the XBFF - I was talking very openly about the degree of pain I felt about that relationship regarding *her* betrayal, not just his, and he made a remark about "So this is why you've made her into such a demon?" Yeah, I corrected that one. /deadpan
Dia: Hmmm, when you say I've made her into a demon, I hear that you think I am demonizing her unfairly. Is that correct?
H: You're certainly up in arms against her.
Dia: Given the circumstances, I think my feelings about XBFF are reasonable and valid. I mean, where's the little voice that says, "You know, my two best friends are really having a hard time in their marriage, so seducing the guy would really be a bad idea right about now. Not to mention it would be a crappy thing to do to my best friend."
H: I don't think she thought things through that far. She was hurting over (her X-husband).
Dia: I'm sure she *was* hurting. So were you. But hurting doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean it wasn't a betrayal of me. I was hurting, too. Does that mean it was ok for me to get involved with OM? So "I was hurting" justifies just about anything? It may make it *understandable*, but it doesn't change whether or not it was right, and it doesn't change how much it hurt people.
So anyways, he needs time to process a lot of this. It was a long convo, and his M.O. is to mull things over slowly and then come back to me with them a day or three later. We'll see.
At one point in the convo I asked him if he knew what it meant to validate someone's feelings, and he said no. So I explained. Then I explained that for several years, I'd sensed tension between me and his mother, and when I had brought it up to him, mostly he'd told me I was wrong and just playing into the MIL stereotype. Now, with things in the open, it seemed pretty clear to me that there really *was* tension between me and his mother, so could he see how I would feel after years of having my feelings minimized and disregarded?
And he launched into an explanation of why his mother feels like she does.
/headdesk
Dia: Yes. I can see why she would feel that way. Can *you* understand how *I* feel?
H: <silence, long look, then very hesitant and unconvincing> ... yes...?
So, bottom line - H could do with some upgrading in the feelings validation department. What resources - books, websites, etc. do all of you recommend?
After the talk, I asked him if we could do some work on feelings-validation so that I could come away from talks like this feeling heard and validated, and he agreed.
And FYI for those who were following the cognitive dissonance/cognitive distortion stuff, that's precisely what we're grappling with right now.
Example - The Drinker: Gosh, my W is upset about my drinking. If she's right, I might have a drinking problem. If I have a drinking problem, I would have to do something about that because a drinking problem is a really bad thing. Wow, and I'm pretty attached to my alcohol. I don't want to change my drinking behavior at all.
Cognitive dissonance: I want to drink vs. my wife is upset and drinking problems are bad mojo.
Defensive solution: If my W is wrong, then I don't have to change my behavior and I'm not a bad person for having a drinking problem!
Cognitive distortion (in this case, denial): I don't drink nearly that much or that often. You're just exaggerating, so quit nagging me.
I'm inclined to call in some outside help a la DB coach or IC/MC, but that's a discussion for a bit later in the game.
Note: the example above *is* exaggerated, and it's not meant as a representation of my H, accurate or otherwise. It's a made-up example to show the cognitive dissonance/cognitive distortion progression.
The valadation piece see to be the million dollar question. I myself, have pushed to feel heard by my W and in turn she felt "unheard" by me.
I don't know the exact dynamic of you and your hubby, but do you think asking him more about his views, how he thinks you could handle the mom/house situation would open him up a little more. I don't have much for resources, but it seems that people are less likely to validate when they feel invalidated themselves.
Welcome back Dia, good to see things are still on track and you are still working through things! Its good to see someone back who is still going through early piecing so few folks seem to come back after their H/W comes home and it does live a hole on the forum so thank you for doing so!
While I said what I needed to say, I didn't feel heard.
When he "comes back in a day or three", you must tell him this.
"Mom, there were valid reasons why Dia left. I had an alcohol problem, and I had an inappropriate relationship with her best friend."
This a man would, should do. Tell him you expect
your man to do this.(although the "inappropriate relationship," certainly minimizes this
betrayal in a Clintonesque sort of way)
There were a number of places of concern for me in the convo. I still see minimizing of the alcohol-related behaviors. Not good. Red Flag. I do not see an alcohol problem at present at all, but I still see some defensive sweeping-under-the-rug. Minimizing, Not accountable. Call him on this. I still see a lot of blame of me for things. What?!For example, at one point I was marking bottles so as to get a facts-based version of how much/how often he was drinking. Smart.For my part, I really did want the facts. He was telling the MC that he drank far less and far less often than I believed he was, and when I said I thought it was more, I was accused of exaggerating - hence my marking of the bottles. It wasn't so I could be 'right'. It was to find out if maybe I *was* exaggerating. Well, to him, the only reason I marked the bottles was that I was out to get him and I was case-building so I could build up enough pretext to leave. Nonsense! And the MC didn't call him on this? Sounds like he never owns his own behaviors. Very defensive about anything alcohol related = Big Red Flag.
These beliefs on his part only fuel the perception on the part of many people, including his mother, that the break-up was all Dia's fault. By leaving that perception unchallenged, he is tacitly reinforcing it. And "siding" with Mom. Over his wife! Is he a mama's boy.? If we're going to make headway with his mother, he needs to own his [censored] and let his mother know he contributed to the downfall. Tell him this . Word-for-word (although "contributed sound a bit weak, considering).
Re: the XBFF - I was talking very openly about the degree of pain I felt about that relationship regarding *her* betrayal, not just his, and he made a remark about "So this is why you've made her into such a demon?" Yeah, I corrected that one. /deadpan
Dia: Hmmm, when you say I've made her into a demon, I hear that you think I am demonizing her unfairly. Is that correct?
H: You're certainly up in arms against her.
Dia: Given the circumstances, I think my feelings about XBFF are reasonable and valid. I mean, where's the little voice that says, "You know, my two best friends are really having a hard time in their marriage, so seducing the guy would really be a bad idea right about now. Not to mention it would be a crappy thing to do to my best friend."
H: I don't think she thought things through that far. She was hurting over (her X-husband).
Dia: I'm sure she *was* hurting. So were you. But hurting doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean it wasn't a betrayal of me. I was hurting, too. Does that mean it was ok for me to get involved with OM? So "I was hurting" justifies just about anything? It may make it *understandable*, but it doesn't change whether or not it was right, and it doesn't change how much it hurt people. He's not getting it, Dia.
So anyways, he needs time to process a lot of this. It was a long convo, and his M.O. is to mull things over slowly and then come back to me with them a day or three later. We'll see.
At one point in the convo I asked him if he knew what it meant to validate someone's feelings, and he said no. So I explained. Then I explained that for several years, I'd sensed tension between me and his mother, and when I had brought it up to him, mostly he'd told me I was wrong and just playing into the MIL stereotype. Now, with things in the open, it seemed pretty clear to me that there really *was* tension between me and his mother, so could he see how I would feel after years of having my feelings minimized and disregarded?
And he launched into an explanation of why his mother feels like she does. Siding with Mama over his wife.
/headdesk
Dia: Yes. I can see why she would feel that way. Can *you* understand how *I* feel?
H: <silence, long look, then very hesitant and unconvincing> ... yes...?
So, bottom line - H could do with some upgrading in the feelings validation department. What resources - books, websites, etc. do all of you recommend?
Dia, I don't know of any books that deal with just validating feelings, but I do strongly suggest
The New Rules Of Marriage by Terry Real. Great book. Includes a lot of this. We even went to one of his 3-day
seminar once. Of course, given the state of my sitch, I could understand your having some skepticism on my recommendation, here. Trust me on this. Plenty of things re validation, conflict resolution, just plain speaking up. Excellent book!
And given how well-versed in this you are, I would suggest validating his feelings, and a few seconds later rewind the conversation and ask him, "how did you feel just then when I said X?" H answer. "Do you know what I did just then? I validated
your feelings, H. Acknowledged them. Really understood what it must be like to be you and feel the way you do on X"
Lead.
Then suggest some practice sessions for him. Teach him.
My verbose far-more-than-you-bargained-for, far more than 2 cents.
Thanks, everyone.
Gardener - one of the reasons I positively adore this site is that when there's something we have a problem with and our spouse gives us some line of you-know-what about why we're wrong or why that should be a problem, I think we all begin to doubt ourselves. "Gosh, maybe *I'm* the nutjob? Maybe s/he's right and I'm just over-reacting, etc. and so forth ad nauseam."
Then we come here and we get the most amazing, kick-arse validation ever.
Thank you. All of you.
I've been feeling deflated for most of the day, and of course I feel deflated. I was invalidated during much of that conversation! He defended his mother, he defended XBFF, he defended himself. There wasn't a single apology, a single "I'm sorry for the pain", and the only "I know how that must have felt" had to be pulled out of him at great length.
Sigh.
Word to the wise - the battle is NOT over once you hit the reconciliation milestone! There is still work to be done. It will be hard, and it won't be pleasant. You can't muck out a stall w/o getting sh&t on you. Don't let that put you off - but be ready for it with open eyes and realistic expectations.
edit: oh - and FWIW, the MC took his side on the alcohol, meaning that she accepted his version of how much/how often he was drinking. Ergo, I was the nutjob.
Dia you are a nutjob but that's ok, who isn't around here?
LOL!
Dia you are a nutjob but that's ok, who isn't around here?
LOL!
There's a memory jogger. I know that song all to well; )
Hee Haw flashback in progress...
"Hey, Dia! What's for Supper?"
Chinese hot and sour soup with brown rice.
It was a good use of the leftover pork roast from last night where there wasn't enough to do a full leftover meal.
Wonderful food!
Your husband had better realize how fortunate he is.
Dia,
I love ya, Dia, but sometimes I wonder if I should be a tad
worried...?
Dia:
I was so glad to see your name today. You make me smile.
If you get your validation issue answered, send the solution my ways!!!
Love ya, girlfriend!!!
Hi Dia
Glad to hear all is going well, I know as well just how hard the piecing part of reconciling is, we have had a few issues come up mainly with H's insecurity/jealousy issues, but we will get there.
Good luck with your continued piecing and sorting validation issues out. As always your recipes are just brilliant and if I lived in your part of the world I would over your house as quick as for cooking lessons.
Dia,
You are treading on thin ice here, and you know it. You can't teach this to him. He has to take it from a 3rd party. Can you get him to a Retrouvaille weekend? This is the type of stuff they are great at dealing with. You take the garbage there, you deal with it for a day, and you leave it behind. When you go home, it's no longer with you. And they will teach both of you to dialogue with validation. Cuz until you feel validated, the dialogue is not over!
Hi, Lotus,
The issue isn't really whether I can teach it as it is will he learn it, and will he learn it *from me.*
Either way, tho, I am leaning toward a third party. I have 2 pre-paid DB sessions in my hip pocket for starters. The next Retro isn't until April here, so while that's an option (though we still have the thorny childcare issue), it's a long way off.
My DB coach, Joann, is supposed to have lots of good experience with alcohol issues, so hopefully she'll see straight through some of this hoo-ha.
He is doing great in many areas but he is still defensive and in denial about some stuff, too, in particular anything that would make it look like he did something 'bad' or 'wrong' in any sort of big sense.
As an example, he 'does not remember' that we had an agreement, discussed *multiple* times that a) while we didn't mind some flirting/banter online we were to let the other person know it was happening, and b) that even when we discussed the possibility of dating during the sep, we agreed to tell each other first. He reminded me that me discovering his EA with XBFF came a day or so after he 'caved' and agreed that we should separate. Sorry, I call BS there. He agreed that we should sep b/c he was having an EA and OW! was filling his head withthe usual crap!! Additionally, what, you say we should sep and that means you can tup whoever you want including inviting them to our house?? No freaking way. Alien-speech.
There's a distressing pattern that if he remembers a significant event or conversation and I don't, then I'm just wrong. If he's the one who doesn't remember, then the thing never happened and I'm making it up.
I am thinking DB session alone to talk about how to handle validation when you're also dealing with cognitive distortion (how to validate the *feelings* without validating/reinforcing/agreeing with the *distortion*, and to discuss the need for help with validation in general, then a joint session.
On the upside, he went through the house and took a bunch of stuff that belongs to OW and OW little girl over to OW's mother - stroller, toys, little girl shoes, OW's special pillow, etc. Good riddance!!
He's also doing well with appreciation, affection, and housework. On my side, there happens to be a national shortage of a medication I take (natural thyroid) and I've been on a half dose for a month and have been completely out for the last few days. More should arrive3 next week, but the net effect is that I am tired, cloudy-headed and tending toward depression.
Hey Dia. Just wanted to let you know that while I haven't posted on your thread in a while, I am watching. Hang in there, you're doing great.
There's a distressing pattern that if he remembers a significant event or conversation and I don't, then I'm just wrong. If he's the one who doesn't remember, then the thing never happened and I'm making it up.
Ugh...Not acceptable. I've dealt with this occasionally in family and work.
On the upside, he went through the house and took a bunch of stuff that belongs to OW and OW little girl over to OW's mother - stroller, toys, little girl shoes, OW's special pillow, etc. Good riddance!!
Yay!
On my side, there happens to be a national shortage of a medication I take (natural thyroid) and I've been on a half dose for a month and have been completely out for the last few days. More should arrive3 next week, but the net effect is that I am tired, cloudy-headed and tending toward depression.
Terrible!
Hi Dia,
Hope you are travelling along ok and that you are back on track medication wise.
Cas
I"m on a thyroid medicine too, and I know the sluggish depressed feeling that happens when I'm out. Can you take the synthetic version? I do and it really helps.
Hi, all,
Bunch of updates...
1) My boss's wedding was Sunday, and I am slowly recovering. Under 'other duties as assigned' she asked me if I would mind taking on the wedding planning and I said yes. That'll teach me!! The event was a smashing success, including on the professional networking level as I'm having a sit-down with a city council member soon to lobby for local support in taking our company non-profit, part of the real reason I was hired in this position.
2) I am finally back on an appropriate dose of thyroid, and I will be thanking all the little piggies out there at my next major acceptance speech. Low thyroid sucks donkey balls!
3) H and I continue to be warm, cuddly, appreciative, affectionate and all that good stuff. Yayyyyyyy!
4) We're also continuing to confront some thorny issues including the MIL thing, the validation thing, the 'guess what, Dia DID have valid reasons for leaving' thing, etc. Yuuuuuuuck! Necessary, but no fun.
5) I have a DB Coaching appt. Monday to call in some advice on some of the stuff in #4.
6) I got a substantial raise, with the promise of another one at my 6 month review.
7) I have no clue how I did it, but the accountant who was my arch nemesis who treated me like a two-bit temp who didn't have two brain cells to rub together has become a willing subordinate and my biggest supporter. I'm pretty sure this happened when I stepped in as a de facto art director in between our creative people and the accountant - who is also our graphic designer. Somehow, someway, I made the work flow actually work and now she worships me. Cool!
Letter to my H
I put this in writing because I know how he thinks. He reads, he processes, he mulls over. This takes awhile. With the holidays in full swing, it's hard to get time (eye roll) to talk about this, but I want it out and I want it explicit as we continue to move forward. I also want it in writing to combat the he said/she said stuff I alluded to a few posts up. Ain't no way he can say I never said when it's in writing.
Comments welcome!
-------------------------
Hey, there!
In the most recent discussion we had, I really heard and understood how frustrating it was for you when I wasn't able to articulate clearly what I wanted or why I was unhappy. To that end, I'd like to lay out as clearly as I can what I want and need in terms of time with you.
1) On a pretty much daily basis, I'd like to spend 10 - 30 mins in light, casual conversation. "How was your day? Let me tell you this funny story, etc." You've been really REALLY good about this, doing it around the time you get home or right around Nick's bedtime before you go off to do other things. For me, this is maintenance level. I need the ongoing connection with you. Missing a day won't throw me into a tailspin, and when we're both extremely busy, I'll understand if it gets a bit spotty. It also doesn't have to be particularly romantic - I just want to feel connected.
2) Once or twice a week - an in-house date night, such as a movie, playing a computer game together, etc. What we do isn't all that important. What's important is that it's just the two of us and we're interacting. When things are good between us, a movie is absolutely great. If we're having trouble or we've been too busy to have time for each other, sometimes watching a movie leaves me a little cold because it doesn't leave much room for talking. Talking during movies bothers you, so if we're having trouble with each other and we watch a movie in silence, it leaves me feeling unconnected. I need the verbal intimacy - the talking. On these nights, I want some romance and cuddling, too.
We do pretty good with this, though recent busy-ness has made it difficult. I do miss our movie nights!
3) Once or twice a month - a date night out of the house, just you and me. Dinner, a movie, walking around State Street, maybe going to a party at someone's house, going to the theatre, a long walk on the beach if it's warm, wine tasting, etc. Definitely romantic. Doesn't have to be expensive. Again, what we do is far less important to me than spending romantic time focused on each other and interacting with each other. Conversation is very important. If we did this twice a month, I'd be happy to alternate who pays.
4) A couple of times a year - If we can swing it, an overnight or weekend get-away. Hopefully just the two of us, but the three of us is ok sometimes, too. Camping, Montana de Oro, Disneyland, a short cruise, etc. If it's just the two of us, lots and lots of romantic time and lovemaking!
5) Once a year - if we can. Either a family or a just-us special vacation. A cruise. Several days at a hotel or resort. A week-long camping trip. For me, it's important to get away from the time and attention sinks inherent in being at home. Computers, chores, work - all of these take time and attention away from each other.
When you spend time with me, I feel important to you. When you spend time with me, it tells me you love me and want to be around me. On the flip side, when you spend time on a lot of other projects but very little with me, I feel like all of those things are more important, more interesting and more attractive to you than I am. I feel like that thing you do because you have to, not because you want to, or I feel like I'm only good enough for leftover scraps, not the good, solid awake hours. I want you to have friends, hobbies and to do fun things you enjoy. That's healthy and important for you. But I also want to feel like *I'm* important, too.
I'm not going to be checking these things off on a calendar or anything silly like that. Mostly, I wanted to communicate this as clearly as possible because spending time with me is probably the number one thing you can do to ensure that I feel loved, cherished, valued and desired in this relationship. Also, please hear this, too - I love you, and I want to spend as much time with you as I can.
Please let me know what you think. This isn't a gripey, 'you're neglecting me' email. This is a 'this is what would really make me happy' email so that it's clear, out in the open and actionable.
*hugs!*
Dia
Overall it's good, Dia. Perhaps my comments are just stylistic, and immaterial. But I would put the conclusions first, and then the list. As I read down the list, I started ticking off the requirements, and thinking, .....there's more? Perhaps if you start with how important time together is, and then list the kinds of time together, maybe not being so fixed on the quantity (2x per week; 1 week/year, etc.), it wouldn't sound so demanding. After all, things come up and life gets hectic, if you are getting the love tank filled regularly, do you really have to stop at every gas station?
Lots of good stuff. Nice that you're being proactive and taking steps for future success: )
Hi, Lotus and EB,
Re: demanding... There's a rock and hard place issue here. Referring back to our most recent R talk - which I think I journalled about a few posts back, one of the take-home messages for me was that regardless of how clear I thought I was being, H never did hear a strong, clear message about what I wanted or needed. In fact, he heard anything but. So on the one hand, now I've been very clear and explicit.
On the other hand, yeah, he's called me demanding before and yeah, it will tick the heck out of me if he goes there with this. Darned if you do and darned if you don't.
Also, maybe it's just me as the author, but I see a ton of wiggle room in what I've written. It's not "2x per or I walk". It's "Once or twice..." I guess I don't see once or twice a week or once or twice a month as a big deal? Am I not seeing the forest for the trees?
Well, it's sent, so will see which way the wind blows soon enough. We had our Boy Scout Christmas dinner tonight so we've been out all evening.
Dia, do you think that just you mentioning them is good enough? Do you really need to even mention a specific amount?
Well, I think I do need to mention amounts based on a lot of stuff from past history together. Specificity is a lot of what he was talking about when he said I was never clear about what I wanted.
"Help more with housework" is vague.
"I want you to take full responsibility for the dishes," is specific. In fact, unless I'm missing more than I think even the DB stuff says to get as concrete, quantifiable and specific as possible.
??
Well, you know him better than any of us do! And I dont think that it will be received poorly by him based on where the two of you are right now. And if he wants more specificity, then certainly, give it to him.
Personally I wouldn't want to be told exactly what to do. I like the approach of asking to have your needs met with little "lets figure out the details together" thrown in. That way I would feel more included in developing the program as opposed to being told exactly what to do.
I like your approach Dia.
Dia!
Merry Christmas to you.
Thanks for everything.
(Inner) Peace,
gardener
Hi, all!
I'm here to wish the very best that 2010 has to offer to you and yours. 2009 was sure was a stinker, wasn't it? Thank God and Greyhound it's gone!
I have a whole bunch of stuff to post, but I'm going to have to do it in bites.
Short version - things are great! I did a DB session on my own, then the day after Christmas, H and I slipped in to see my most excellent IC in the desert for a 2 hr session focused on *drumroll* ... validating feelings.
So I've got stuff to share from both of those sessions, plus some of my own personal musings.
Here's the first of the latter as it applies to reconciliation...
The end of detachment, re-attachment if you will, is hard. And since it happens both quickly (for me) and under the radar, it's a perfect set-up for having it come out of nowhere and bite you in the arse!
Stuff that didn't used to matter all of a sudden does. Stuff you used to blow off gets under your skin again. And most of all, your self image very quickly becomes vulnerable to your partner's moods, feelings and perceptions of you. YIKES!!
It's an insidious slippery slope. Some of it is necessary for re-bonding, and some of it is a gold-plated opportunity to change old boundary patterns before they can become entrenched again.
In my case, when I was struggling so hard with H being invalidating, it really threw me. It felt as if he wasn't just invalidating my feelings or my perception of events and reality in general. It felt like he was invalidating ME. The message seemed to be, "Your feelings are worthless drivel, so *you're* worthless drivel, too."
And after two years of not letting him put that on me, all of a sudden I let him. And I didn't even realize I was doing it. All the crap that I was feeling, all of the labels I'd been expected to wear came out in spades. Unreasonable. Demanding. Hormonal. Over-emotional. Malicious. etc.
There are two - ok, three - parts to fixing all of that.
1) Realize it's happening.
2) Stop accepting the negative self-talk. Your partner might think or say that stuff, but as with vampire, it can't come in unless you invite it.
3) Work with the partner on the negative messaging.
We are currently doing all of the above. Or rather, I'm doing 1 and 2. *We* are doing 3.
Dia,
I am thrilled you guys are doing so well. Keep it up and, as always, I will be reading along and learning.
Hi Dia,
I definitely second what GIMA said. I love the learning I have had from your posts. May continued success be yours.
Cas
Dia!
Ditto the above.
And how great it is to see you here again. And with such progress. Congratulations and continued success, progress, and love.
I miss you here, kiddo.
Hi Dia-
I'm so glad you're doing well. I know you have a lot of people to catch up on, but can you take a look at my new thread when you get a chance, please? It would mean a lot to me.
Thanks, Bunny
Hi, all!
Things here continue to be wonderful. This is the best this marriage has ever been.
I'm trying to sneak around as I can and do drive-bys on my peeps.
Cheers!
Dia
Hey glad to hear things are good for you both, you are often in my thoughts, your thread always used to make me smile and gave me an awful lot of good ideas too! (())
Thank you, Rabbit. My job has gone gang-busters, with plenty of weekends and 70 hr weeks. In a way, it's a good thing, but it sure kept me off of here for a good while!
So good to get an update from you...have really missed reading your posts, but SO glad they are no longer needed...good for you!
I'm happy for you Dia. Careful on that work, though. Too much work means too much time away from home.
Good to hear from you Dia. I am glad you are doing well.
Dear Dia - I didn't know you were a fellow IT (me being a ACTC - I'll let you work out what that is)!!!
You have no idea how happy I am catching up on your sitch! BRILLIANT!
Mac is back so I'm sure we'll be bumping into each other again (in the nicest possible way) :-)
And after reading this lot - I'm also going to change my sig with a bit of yours "My sitch - Divorce Busted! "
Still means that life is "interesting" eh ?
((Dia))
Mac
Dia,
How wonderful to hear!
God Bless!
Hi Dia, wonderful to hear things are still going well. Great to hear from you! You have so much to teach others!
Cas
HI, all,
Short update - I am somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 yr from onset of DB. We are together and building our future. Kidlet is doing well. We still have our struggles sometimes, mostly in the area of love languages. When I don't get QT my LL), the ensuing emotional distance means I don't feel much like initiating PT (his). It's not a deliberate tit-for-tat thing. It's more an unconscious defense mechanism.
The difference is, when stuff like this comes up, I have lots and lots of skills to throw at it, namely GAL.
DH has trouble saying no to social engagements. He's afraid of hurting people's feelings by not going to whatever they invite him to do. The end result is that he feels over-committed, over-stimulated and grumpy because he doesn't have enough time for his own headspace and/or personal pursuits. And, of course, kidlet and I start feeling neglected and unimportant.
Here's a tip - GAL works VERY well. The minute I up and schedule something that takes me out of the house and makes me not immediately available to him, he's suddenly more interested in being around me.
So, the bumps we're working through are not by any means marriage-ending. They are, however, remnants of the same issues that *were* marriage ending before. What's different is how we handle them.
Ok - off to surf sitches and catch up with folks!
Cheers,
Dia
Dia,
Great to hear an update from you and that things are continuing to progress for you and H.
How is the MIL sitch...has she lightened up any?
--silverado
Your reflections are insightful as always, Dia.
Dia - very inspiring. Thanks!
So... the MIL is in town.
My FIL and SIL (who are happy about the reconciliation) have been here for a few days staying at the D's house while the D's are travelling. There's really not enough room in our house for the three of them (incl toddler niece) to stay here with us. We've had a great time. Went out for breakfast and dinner, talked, watched the kids play in a huge sandbox, etc.
Then MIL decided to come up and join the others. MIL is about 5 kinds of wacky - primarily the narcissistic flavor of wacky. She wouldn't tell anyone her travel plans, so no one was able to take her into consideration when they planned their respective days. She said she didn't want to be on a schedule, wanted to visit Ojai and would just call when she was in town. Now, that wouldn't necessarily be a problem if we didn't all know that if people were otherwise engaged when she happened to make town that it could only be because we were inconsiderate louts who don't care about her. (yes, I'm venting)
My SIL is expecting a daughter end of next month, so for the foreseeable future, that's put a stop to the thought of evicting us. MIL wants to stay near SIL and the new baby.
So around 5:15, I'm starting to feel hungry, and every pot and pan we have is dirty. It's DH's job to wash dishes, so I ask him if he would do a dish blitz so I can cook supper. Kidlet goes back to school tomorrow, so I'd planned ribs, green beans and cornbread, some of kidlet's favorites.
At 5:23, MIL called to say she was at the D's and wanted to invite people to dinner. "People", of course, meant DH and kidlet, and specifically excluded me. So you might think it would be easy to just tell MIL to go fly a kite as we already had dinner plans, but it's not. Here's why.
Kidlet has been missing his Gramma, and really wanted to see her. I suspect that kidlet has been partially ostracized along with me, but I have no confirmation and could be wrong. Of course, she 'forgot' his birthday last year, but who's counting. DH and I had talked it out earlier, and this is what we'd come to.
I don't want to inhibit kidlet's relationship with his grandmother. That's not fair to kidlet, so I won't stand in the way of kidlet-gramma time. Kidlet does, however, know about and understand the situation. He was sad that I wasn't invited, but happy to be seeing has Gramma. Tough place for a kid to be.
It's also not my job to dictate what kind of relationship DH has with his mother, so he gets to make those calls with no interference from me. The caveat is that if we DO have family plans, such as a beach trip earlier in the day, we would not cancel events already in motion. (Dinner wasn't started yet.)
DH is in an unenviable position. No matter what he does in this situation, someone gets hurt. He's pissed as hell at his mom, and aggravated by the pure stupidity that some members of his family aren't allowed to attend 'family' events.
On top of all of this, Sep. 4 is his mother's birthday, MIL and FIL's wedding anniversary, and OUR wedding anniversary. (Holy trifecta, Batman. And we're just waiting for the new baby to arrive early and make it a quad-fecta.) We had been planning to ask FIL and SIL to watch kidlet so we could go out for an early anniversary dinner one night this week. With MIL in the mix, I doubt it will happen.
So this dinner tonight is pretty much MIL's birthday dinner. So it ups the stakes even more if DH were to tell her to go fly a kite.
Me, I'm hurt and pissed (at MIL), but DH and I are on the same page. There will be a showdown of sorts between DH and MIL, and it will happen before Christmas, but DH gets to pick the time and battleground. Even better, it was me who reminded DH that this would be her defacto b-day dinner. (If she doesn't mention it to anyone, then she can pitch a fit if people forget.)
I. Sent. A. PRESENT.
I'm not sure if this makes me a saint or the biggest passive-aggressive bit@h on the planet. There were several reasons for doing so, as follows:
1) Her LL is gifts, and they must be festively wrapped. If DH forgot her Bday, there would be hell to pay. As in, even more hell than we're in already from her.
2) I actually acquired the item for her over a year ago because it suited her so perfectly. It's a spa set with a neck roll, and eye mask and that sort of thing. If she can set aside her prejudices, she'll love it.
3) Commemorating birthdays is what families do. I will not stoop to her level of pettiness. Regardless of the ambivalent feelings I have toward her, the gift was well and thoughtfully chosen.
4) I told DH that he didn't need to mention that I was involved, but he said NO. If she wants to reject the gift that his
family, ALL of them, got for her, then she can do it to his face.
5) Kidlet loves giving presents, and it (hopefully) will be a nice bonding moment for them.
6) And if MIL does *anything* that hurts kidlet's feelings, DH will set her straight fast. You can play your narcissistic little games, but if you hurt kidlet, you get to deal with father bear.
7) Even if DH didn't say anything about the gift being from 'all' of us, she would know. Between the gift and the way it's wrapped, it's clear a woman was involved. And since we're all being honest with each other here, yes, there's some passive-aggressive going on. See, I'm well capable of being the bigger person, but I'm entitled to a little hissy fit in private!
So while DH was doing the dishes before they got in the car, I was wrapping her present.
It was... bizarre... in an "epitome of dysfunctional" way.
