I have been D'Bing for about 4 months now. W is a WAW, but hasn't left yet. 98% sure no A. W is in IC, seems to be getting better. I consistantly 180, do something different, and work more and more on GAL. It's hard to do a lot of this with 2 small D's in the house.
One of the issues in the past has been communication. Horrible at it. It seems that the more I learn about myself and sitch the better I am at communicating and building confidence in myself.
However, the more we talk the more R talk comes up. The other night she said she talked to a D lawyer and that we need to start talking about moving forward with a D. I told her that I do not want a D and that I would not fight her anymore about anything. She has brought it up two more times in the last few days and find myself saying the same things even though she wants to talk more and more about it. My biggest issue was running from problems and retreating and not talking about problems in the past.
What do I need to do? If I continue talking about it, I'm afraid it will escalate. But if I stop talking about it, she might see me as retreating as my old self.
Any thoughts please!!!
Let your W know you can't stop her. If she wants a D then she can move out. You will hire the biggest bulldog attorney you can find to protect yourself. I asked attorney friends who would they hire if they were getting a D. Let her know you want to work on the M. You won't stand in her way but you won't support her in this. Let your wife know you won't accept anything less than 50% custody of your children.
Open a bank account and put money in it for yourself and get your check deposited there. Let her know you are cancelling the credit cards. Find out about your car ins and health ins. seperate.
You have a problem to deal with. Meet it head on and let your W know you are handling it to protect yourself.
Coach. I majorly respect your opinion. I appreciate it. The way I've been playing it is that I can not stop you and will not fight you. She's talked to a lawyer and wants to go through mediation because we are so "amicable" right now. I have not gotten angry or upset through any of this. That is how I used to be. I would have exploded, pleaded, cried and yelled.
I guess their are two schools of thought. Should I keep playing it cool and if it happens, it happens and we retain friendship with the hopes of rekindling the marriage.
OR
I play the badass route like Coach suggests?
BTW
Not that it matters, but she is a stay at home mom. Is currently looking for a job. Basically has no money except mine. However, her parents are absolutely loaded and would probably come after me hard to protect her. I on the other hand do not have the resources to hire a badass lawyer. Our credit cards are through the roof as well.
Any other pros out there that can help with this?? SANDI???
If you use a mediator, I STRONGLY suggest you also use your own lawyer. She has one; you should have one.
In fact, I'd strongly suggest playing it exactly as Coach has recommended. He's been thru this, and not only has he been successful in reconciling with his wife (Greek), but SHE has even posted about how compelling it was when she saw that her husband was going to fight hard to protect himself legally.
She's already gone legal on this; "playing nice" only gets you killed at this point.
Puppy
Thanks puppy. Right now there is not a set time for mediation. She doesn't have a job, etc. etc.
That is where I am not sure if it is real or not. I just want to play this right. I think this is crucial.
She also is actually chasing me a little bit since she said that and I didn't blow up. Asking me to do a lot of recreational things that we have not done in months.
She's just manipulating you to get what she wants right now.
Please don't fall for it. WAW's will say and do absolutely anything to lull you into a false sense of security before they go for the jugular.
jdopp,
What are you goals...are you wanting divorce advice...or save your marriage advice?
Save your marriage advice:
Talk with your wife. Except let her talk. Don't get defensive. Tell her you want to listen to what she has to say. Don't commit to anything. Simply say no you don't want the divorce.
Then really listen. Ask a couple questions about her FEELINGS...so you understand really well. Then tell her you are going to take some time to think about what she has to say. Be vague. No commitments about the day you'll get back to her or divorce ideas. DO NOT SAY THE THINGS COACH TOLD YOU TO SAY ABOUT THE BIGGEST LAWYER...ETC.
Come back with what she had to say...we can help you 'DB' it.
Sandi will also have some good ideas.
DO NOT SAY THE THINGS COACH TOLD YOU TO SAY ABOUT THE BIGGEST LAWYER...ETC.
Oh, no, by all means, DON'T use the advice from the couple that actually WORKED, where BOTH the left-behind husband AND the running-away wife said that it worked. no siree -- just stick to the theory.
(yes, I'm being sarcastic).
Two very different approaches, J. Your call. But from where I sit, you've been "stuck" for four months, and after even all that time, she's now wanting to move FORWARD with legal stuff.
SG, I thought DBing was about doing what works, and tossing aside what isn't??
Puppy
SG, isn't he at a stage though where LRT would be implemented? What he's doing doesn't seem to be working. I do agree though you shouldn't tell her you're going to hire a bulldog attorney--just go out and do it. Karen
Thanks guys. SG I want to save my marriage.
I've been DBing for 4 months. I have seen suttle changes in her. 2 months ago she wouldn't even look or talk to me. Now she is talking to me. Pursuing in basic conversations: What are you doing? Where are you going? Can you help me with this? Do you want to watch a movie? Do you want to watch t.v.? Do you want to take the kids to the park?
Don't know if it is manipulation or if she is waking up (a little).
Also their was one specific reason she went to the D lawyer. I pushed her over the edge with a credit card purchase (ironically it was for DB coaching). Our finances is one of her bigger issues with me.
Also their was one specific reason she went to the D lawyer. I pushed her over the edge with a credit card purchase (ironically it was for DB coaching). Our finances is one of her bigger issues with me.
I was going by what you just said, jdopp:
The other night she said she talked to a D lawyer and that we need to start talking about moving forward with a D.
This certainly sounds like a threat of divorce to me. Are you saying that you used a credit card to pay for DB counseling for you, and because of THAT she hired an atty? Sorry, but I cry "bullchit" on that one -- she's deflecting.
Like I said, two very different approaches. If you're satisfied with the bones she throws you, and the fact that she just TALKS to you, then by all means go the "friends" route. If you think she's serious about the legal thing, and/or if you want to take a firmer stand and perhaps accelerate your progress -- even though it may get worse at first -- then I would listen to Coach.
Puppy
Thanks Puppy. The Coach route is a major balls move. Would be the ultimate 180 for me. I've been majorly passive in our relationship (and in life for that matter).
Need to think about this one. Would love some perspective from a WAW...
JD, A divorce is a lawsuit filed against you by your wife. So it's OK for her to threaten to sue you and you do nothing? I think backing down makes you look even more weak and your wife will have less respect for you. It was Puppy that told me about a year ago that there is a reason the divorce papers are called ________ vs __________. How come she can be upset about you working on your M (DB coach) yet she gets a pass on the attorney?
Do want you want. But being passive here is not going to lead to a good solution.
Thanks guys. SG I want to save my marriage.
I've been DBing for 4 months. I have seen suttle changes in her. 2 months ago she wouldn't even look or talk to me. Now she is talking to me. Pursuing in basic conversations: What are you doing? Where are you going? Can you help me with this? Do you want to watch a movie? Do you want to watch t.v.? Do you want to take the kids to the park?
Don't know if it is manipulation or if she is waking up (a little).
Also their was one specific reason she went to the D lawyer. I pushed her over the edge with a credit card purchase (ironically it was for DB coaching). Our finances is one of her bigger issues with me.
YOu DON"T know if she's being manipulativce or softening up, and neither does nanyone else here.
BuChange usually begins with baby steps that snowball into large change.
You are getting what we call....baby steps.
What are her specific issues with money with you....do you spend too much without talking to her? If so.... don't do it again. Even if it's DB coaching.
Yes that is what she said the other night in MC. She said that I spent a ton of money on some program to help me get better (she doesn't know what it is) and didn't consult with her and that is why she decided to go to the D attorney.
The other side of the story is she didn't consult me about going to IC and she probably has spent twice that much.
Not blaming her for anything. That's just reality.
That's right. It's total bs that's her reason for seeking D. And you know $100 or whatever you spent to avoid divorce, D is thousands and thousands of dollars so $100 is chump change. Karen
Hi,
I'm sorry that I am just now seeing your thread. I feel a little pressure here since you have specifically asked for my help....and I sure don't want to tell you anything to make matters worse. I can tell you from the POV as an almost WAW, and from my "study" and my experience in life. Oh...that made me sound pretty good, didn't it?
I hope you know that I never did "walk" but I sure had the mentality of a WAW and kept those feelings in my heart for quite some time. Even though your W hasn't walked away, she does have that mindset and that is how it needs to be handled.
I see every case as somewhat separate and individual and we each have to do what fits who we we are and according to our beliefs, etc. I will tell you up front that I feel that there is more here to your stitch that is being revealed. Either you are not aware of everything about your W, or you have not told everything, yet.
I remember how hard it was when I was staying at home with our babies. It seem almost everything was related to finances. I "get that". However, I have a gut feeling that this is not
ALL about finances to your W. Women don't decide to file for a D b/c her H ran the credit card up getting help for himself and/or the M.
Let's back up to when you said you had been DBing for about 4 months. You have mentioned her IC and you mentioned her saying something in the MC session. So when did the two of you start MC and what were the reasons? How long has she been see an IC and can you briefly tell us the reason? I understand you not wanting to reveal certain matters that you may not feel relate to the MR, but I think "everything" relates.
I see so much stress in families these days and I do believe it is a sign of the times in which we live, but there is still answers and solutions out there. The important thing to know right this minute is that it
matters that you do not give up on this R. Okay? You have stated that you have mostly been passive, so that is what I want to talk about in this post.
BTW, would you tell us the ages of you & your W and your children, please. As I said, these details help us to see the stitch better.
I can tell you this much for now, by reading what you have said....you sure remind me of how my H used to be. His
nature was very passive. People saw him as a good natured, easy-going guy who got along with everyone. I also saw that, but as the years went by.....I saw that one of the reasons he got along with everyone was simply b/c he would not verbally express his opinions/feelings. He sat back and never spoke up or confronted issues. Heck, he wouldn't even reply when I would ask him something....especially if it was related to our R. That would become my source of irration throughout the years.
It is strange that what seem to attract me when I first met him would end up being what I wanted him to change! Since I had come from close parents who talked about
everything....and especially their "feelings", I would turn myself inside-out to my H and let him see how I felt about issues...small or great. I was silly enough to think he would do the same in return. Wrong! It seem the more I tried to get him to open up his feelings and "express" them in words.....the more clamed up he became. Many times I would get so mad at him b/c he wouldn't just TALK to me.
My first thought for you would be to do a 180 and not be so shut-mouthed. If in fact, that is the way you are about most things. Perhaps I am not understanding what you've said.) A man can be "passive" and not be quiet, but it seems to go more hand in hand. Now, here's the thing about a lot of women......a
passive man
can be seen as not having much self-respect. It is vital that your W respect you as a man (first), then she will respect you as her H (second). She
"has" to respect you! It is of my opinion that a woman can have "pity", and maybe some other feelings toward a man.....but I don't think she can be truly be in-love with a man she does not respect. She has to "admire" him, which is respect in a different package. I respect a rattlesnake b/c I know about its dangerous nature.....but I do not "adore" them. Big difference, huh? You want your W to respect
and adore you. Along with that is a need for
sexual attraction. These are three incrediants that is a "must" for a woman in a MR. If there is
ONE area lacking, then the R will suffer. That is important to understand.
When my H
finallystopped being so passive, it made my respect for him zoom. He did not have to become obnoxious or even change his personality much in order to stop being passive. He only needed to make some changes. In my eyes, it was as if he stepped-up to the bat and showed me that he knew how to be in charge and wear the pants in the family and I couldn't bully him. If a woman can bully a man.....she has no respect for him. That is why you can't affor to continue in your passive ways. And, BTW, a woman will test her H (at some point in the M) to see if he will allow her to bully him. If he doesn't stop it right then.....he can expect a lot of misery.
Perhaps it is the "roles" in which society has grown up seeing the sexes. Men can love passive women b/c most females are natural "responders". However, most men think it is a lot more exciting if the woman is not so passive in the bedroom. Right? I think for him, there is a "place and a time" for the woman to be passive. Women are wired differently in their feelings for the man. He is thought of as the intiator. Society has placed the
male as being the one "in charge".....the "protector of his family"....and in the past he was the "breadwinner". Women were actually
taught to respect their H's. Don't hear a lot of that anymore. In today's world, men have to "earn" respect, and I think it's a lot harder than it use to be b/c of the role women have taken on. I actually feel sorry for the young generation of men coming up now, b/c some of them are very confused as to how to act around women in society and in their own homes. Tough place to be. So, if you have had an issue with this or thought a different way about the subject.....maybe you need to rethink.
First, be sure that you respect yourself b/c that will show through to your W.
Second, do NOT allow her to bully you or show
any form of that behavior in your presence. Make absolutely sure that she NEVER disrespects you in front of anyone else by saying negative things to you or "about" you, making you the butt of a joke, arguing, or picking a fight. Vital that she show respect for you in front of your children....at all times.
Third, do not talk about private issues in public, in front of friends/relatives, or in front of the children. Wait until you are alone with your W.
Fourth, be prepared in what you will say to your W when (b/c she "will") puts you down in her words, actions, or facial expressions. Her attitude shows....just as yours does.
Fifth, be respectful to your W while in front of others. You cannot expect her to treat you like a king if you can't treat her like a queen. Now, here comes the tricky part. When in the privacy of your home....THAT is the time to teach her not to disrespect you. I never know exactly how to say this without concern it will be taken the wrong way. H's have to talk to their W's about things that are not "right" and at times he has to step into that position of authority. I almost cringe in using that word b/c I do not want to paint a picture of a woman being less than a man. I certainly am not doing that! But, men must be in authority over his own home. The old timers use to talk about men who could not control their wife & kids and how they would have a life of hell on earth. I don't like that word "control" b/c it actually boils down to demanding respect and showing authority as the man of the house. How does one do that if he is passive?
I will add this on behalf of the women. A man can only wear the pants in the family, or be the "head" of the family, or whatever term you want to use.......he can only do that b/c the wife ALLOWS him to do that. Yes, that's right. She has a choice of allowing you that place of respect in the home....or she can fight you tooth and nail until the M is over or one of you dies. Some men chose to give up and let the woman rule the roost. I hate to see that when it happens! I want to shake that man and tell him to find his b@lls and man-up. There is an opinion on the board what that "man-up" actually means to some folks, but I hope you know how I mean it here. I always try to make sure that nobody ever thinks I am implying any abuse what-so-ever. You never have to be abusive to get respect!
Okay, so as usual my first post has been long, and the next one will probably be also. Thanks for listening and if I did misunderstand anything, please let me know. But, if this does not apply to your stitch.....maybe somebody else reading it will benefit.
Talk to you later,
Sandi
Thanks Sandi. I really, really respect and appreciate your POV. One of my 180's is self respect for myself. I have shown it a few times recently to her at the right moments.
My Info:
M: 34
W: 34
D: 5
D: 3
Married 10 years
Main issues:
Financial - We have sacrificed a lot for her to stay home with the kids. (Credit card bill is very high).
Grass is greener - She has always felt like she hasn't done enough with her life. She is not happy where she lives, wants to move to another place. This is why she is in IC. She does not feel whole. She feels out of place. Has major depression and anxiety.
Does not respect me - says that I am a good person, but not good strong man or provider, feels like she has 3 kids (me being one of them).
We sweep problems things under the rug. Don't talk them out. Come back later in big arguments and never get resolved.
After the kids were born we stopped being good recreational partners. Did not go out on dates much, excuse was we were always strapped for money. This was the basis of our friendship. Watching movies together (we were both film minors in college).
Sex life was hurt after the children were born as well.
Communication bad - during the last couple of years. I travel a lot, didn't check in with her as much. Real short on the phone, etc.
She now says we were always better friends and that we both deserve better. She just wants me to be a friend and father now. She says she sees a life with her as primary custody parent with the children
180's
Listening better
Communicating better - Not blowing up during conversations.
Working out, getting fit
Taking better care of myself (health wise)
Helping with housework
Backing her up when she corrects the children
Don't get on the computer much anymore
Don't watch tv much anymore (unless with her)
Self Respect for myself.
I think she is baiting me . She keeps saying she is waiting for me to blow up or go into some major depression because she doesn't think that I can sustain having a good outlook on life and take the pressure of a D.
Recently she has mentioned that she doesn't know who I am anymore. She says I seem robotic. (It's just me trying to learn better to communicate through word of mouth and listen to her and not crying at the drop of a hat). She also says that I scare her sometimes when I talk to her. I guess this is more of my confidence showing as well.
So much of what you have told me sure reminds me of Mr. & Mrs. Sandi years ago. I was reading Sg's thread on how some of us "support" and some of us give "solutions" to DBers here on the board. I'm not sure exactly where I fall, but I start talking and hope I say something that will help in some way.
I like your goals! I am impressed by what you have listed. Most newcomers are not quite as focused about goals......so that is great.
As I told you in the last post, I can certainly understand the stress of debt! Have you tried a company or agent that helps people in consolidating bills? Just getting professional advise might help some. It seems to be a world-wide problem with credit cards. It's scary, isn't it?
The "grass is greener".....oh man does that bring back memories. The first ten years of my M, I kept waiting for our "ship to come in" as they use to say. I was immature and believed in things I had seen in movies, I guess. Anyway, I was just like your W and kept trying to find happiness in ways like moving to another town, etc. My H would not agree to it, and that was probably good b/c I would have had us chasing rainbows forever! I mostly had to mature and learn a lot of life's hard lessons.
I also suffered from depression when my first child was born. I did not even know that it was something that I could have been given a prescription and gotten better. Nobody in my family had ever been given meds for a problem like that! I suppose it was some type of stigma attached. So, I really suffered for years before a doctor recognized it on another occassion and talked to me about meds. It took a long time before I finally found the right medication, and I was about to give up....but I am on the right kind now and it really is making a big difference. My heart goes out to people who live in the misery of depression.....but at the same time, I get impatient when they won't try to get help!!
I suspect your W has low self-esteem. That may be b/c she is staying at home raising the children. Some women would kill to get to do that.....then others really need to have a job outside the home to give them a sense of "fulfillment". Mothers have a lot of guilt to deal with when they work b/c they think they should be home....and those at home feel they should be working to help with the finances! With two preschool children, it would cost a fortune to pay for daycare. I don't know that it would help in that area of finances or not, however, if your W could feel better by a "position" in the workforce......it may be something to consider. What does she say about that? When my babies were little, I stayed home and it was very rough. I will have to admit that my self-esteem was low and when I was in the workforce.....I learned that the type of work I did really made a difference in how I felt about myself. I think it works for women like it does for a man. We find a certain amount of self-value in what we do. On the religious side of things, we shouldn't feel that way....but we do never-the-less. Men are "connected" with their work and I think it has become that way for women these days. Perhaps your W just does not feel that fulfilled and valued as a SAHM. Of course, I seem to be validating everything you have said! Sorry.
How is she coming in IC about her self-esteem? Does she ever talk about what is said in the session? Does she seem to respond to you talking to her? By that I mean, when you praise her for something she has accomplished well......does she seem to really be happy about it? You "do" praise her...right? You know, life gets to be so routine....and "especially" as a SAHM, so don't forget to say things about how well the house looks or what a great meal she cooked.....or how you appreciate that you always have clean clothes to wear and all the things that are involved with staying with those two little kids each day....wow!
A lot of men really do not know "how" to give a compliment. I have told some to not sound like a "husband" when saying something to his wife. Know what I mean? Like....when she gets dressed up....don't tell her she "looks nice". That is a husband compliment. Be specific. Tell her "how" or "why" she looks especially good. Point out something about the color she has on....or how hot it makes her look. Tell the way she walks turns you on.....things like that. Hey...I can give you all kinds of examples, if you need help in that area...LOL.
Also, couples need a lot of alone time. Is there anyone (relatives or friends) who could keep the kids over-night? How about a Saturday afternoon? I think your M is sexually starved and it would do good for you to read Michele's book about that. I think she has an article here on the board.
It is obvious to me that your W's sex hormones are extremely low and she does not feel attracted to you. Not b/c you are ugly or anything like that! When this happens to a woman....you could be Brad Pitt and she wouldn't be attracted. (Well....maybe not Brad.....but somebody else.) I'm not making fun of your stitch, but I try to show a "little" humor to keep surviving the sad stuff.
Your W needs help in a lot of areas that a good specialist could make a world of difference. If the sex went downhill after the babies were born...that is a sure sign of something physically deficient in her body. I am saying this b/c I was just like her. I kept blaming my "problems" on one thing and then another, but nothing was helping. I finally....(thank God) found a doctor who gave me a
thorough blood test, (not just the usual things that doctor normally do) and discovered I had all kinds of low deficiencies in hormones and vitamins. It took finding the right doctor who would do extensive lab tests before I started getting better. BTW, when he got the results back....he told me I was a tainwreck! No wonder I was in the mess I was! So, I hope you will encourage her to get "all" the lab work so they'll know what she needs. I'm not pushing drugs here, but I learned the hard way that people do not "have" to suffer and their M's do not have to end due to hormone deficiencies. I had not idea what a difference it would make!!
I have already talked to you about the lack of respect in the MR, so I won't get off into all of that again.
We sweep problems things under the rug. Don't talk them out. Come back later in big arguments and never get resolved.
So has none of the MC helped in knowing "how" to bring these issues to the surface and discuss them before they fester and turn into a giant argument? I have found that when I won't allow something to bug me....and confront it
right then....I do so much better and then it won't become that type of ordeal. My H and I use to do the same thing you are talking about. He would hurt my feelings or do something that made me mad.....and a lot of times I would suck it in and decide not to say anything. Well, it becomes a monster if you do that. It
will come out later.....but will appear to be something entirely different. Something small and insignificant. It will seem that the whole thing was blown up out of proportion.....but the
real problem was swept under the rug, right? If only something had been said at the time, then it would not have grown into that argument that made no sense. I have really learned from this....and at first, it was a little difficult b/c I have a lot of pride and it's hard to tell my H that he hurt my feelings or that I did not appreciate how he spoke down to me, etc. But, it is very "worth" it to do so!! I hope you will try this and will discuss it with your W. Perhaps the two of you can agree to do this with each other.
Do you still travel a lot? I can see where that hurt the R a lot.
Recently she has mentioned that she doesn't know who I am anymore. She says I seem robotic. (It's just me trying to learn better to communicate through word of mouth and listen to her and not crying at the drop of a hat). She also says that I scare her sometimes when I talk to her. I guess this is more of my confidence showing as well.
She is probably leary at you changing so much. She doesn't understand these changes or maybe "why" you've done them. You would "think" she would know, but can't read her mind, right? She may feel that the man she M has died and this new man is a stranger to her. She may have to get to know him and fall in love with him! I went through that with my H. I actually mourned for the "boy" I fell in love with and he vanished! I still miss that boy, but I have learned to respect this man I'm M to and love him. It does take time.
I never thought I would live to see my H trying to put as much effort into our R as he has. He actually talks to me, now. Maybe he will never know how to relate his emotions very well, but I don't nag him about it like I use to, and at least he is talking! That helps a lot.
She wants to be "only" friends b/c she feels emotionally divorced from the M. Plain as that. No sexual attraction....depressed.....probably not much energy......sad.....no money to have good times & fun.....giving up on this "life" and thinking that a "new" and different life will bring her happiness. Does that sound about right? Yes, I've been there.
I know you are trying to stay away from the computer as much, but I do hope you will continue to come to the DB board. You might want to delete your activity from the computer b/c some S's don't understand what this board is about and it causes more problems. However, that is strickly up to you and don't think I'm trying to promote deceitfulness.....just caution! You need support and help. There are a lot of people here that are very good at both.
Take care,
Sandi
Thanks Sandi. I knew from reading your posts that you would have some great insight. You have basically hit the nail on the head with everything. The grass is greener concept, W self esteem, W depression, W sex drive,
As far as my W in IC. I do see that she is getting better in some areas with her self esteem. She does talk to me more and more about what her and her C are talking about. Self esteem, feeling "whole", dealing with guilt, her parents, etc.
She has an appt. next week for medication.
As far as us and MC. We have only been twice together. I went twice without her (and I think that aggravated her). I'm not sure we are going again (at least to the same one). The first time we went, she blasted me and said that:
She felt like I was her 3rd child.
She thought that I was a "nice, docile man."
She didn't trust me with money.
She'd rather live a life alone with the kids.
The second time together (which was last week):
She told the MC that she went to talk to a D lawyer.
The MC asked me what I thought about that. I said I told her that I couldn't stop her or fight her from doing that but that I disagree with it and I would fight for our marriage.
She said she doesn't know who I am anymore.
She questioned me several times why I didn't change sooner in the R.
She says that I act like this is not real and we are not going to get a D and that I act like I don't live in reality right now.
She says that I act like she is going to come back to me.
Sandi,
Can you go over to my thread under emotional detachment in I need support for my marital problems and give me some ideas for compliments...I said the "You look nice" the other day and I would like to get some fresh ideas.. Also can you give me your take on my sit too if its not too much trouble..
Thanks
Here's another thing that is strange to me. This past weekend she was suppose to go on a trip all weekend to a girlfriends (I know it is just a girlfriend) Friday - Sunday. On Thursday W says that I don't think I'm going to leave until Saturday now and I might not even go. Friday night at dinner, "I ask the girls what they want to do tomorrow?" and almost immediately W goes for the phone to call her girlfriend and says, "hey I've decided to go tomorrow."
I know I shouldn't try to read minds, but I know some WAW's want their LBS to fight for them. Any insight into this exchange?
Well, it's hard to tell about the changing her mind when/if to go to the girlfriend's. A lot of WAW's have this very restless and unstable frame of mind and it's just plain hard to understand.
As far as her wanting you to fight for the M, I would think that she wants to see some type of action out of you if you have been passive.
She felt like I was her 3rd child.
She thought that I was a "nice, docile man."
She didn't trust me with money.
She'd rather live a life alone with the kids.
When I read this, it told me a lot. No W wants to feel these things about the man she's M to. Every woman wants her man to show some "spunk" and "life" about him. She wants him to make some decisions instead of her feeling as if she has to do it all. No woman wants a "dictator" but she does want a H to call the shots on some things. She wants him to show he's capable of handling money and taking care of the family. She wants to see him "take a firm stand" about things he believes in and not sit back and never have an opinion.
Perhaps I'm not chosing the right words to express very well. Don't mean to sound as if I'm putting you down. People can be passive to a certain degree (I think) before others misunderstand and take that passiveness to mean something negative. Just as an assertive person is easily to be misunderstood.
In what ways do you think you could show your W that you were fighting for the M? Don't you see that being a 180? Could you make some goals that would show steps in "fighting" for a great M? Sounds like you could be onto something here.
Let me know some of your ideas.
Sandi
Thanks Sandi. I think you are validating some of my feelings.
I also found a note a couple of weeks ago that was in the garbage: It was from a friend of hers that read: JDopp is "crazy" for not realizing what he is about to lose.
Also in MC, W made mention of how much attention I was paying towards my D's, it seemed to aggravate her.
Sandi some of these things just go completely against what seems to be the standard in DBing. Wouldn't some of these actions be considered pursuing????
180's to show I am fighting for M
Become more responsible with money. Get more involved. She is the one that handles the checking account. I could offer to do the bills every other week.
Ask her out to the movies (We quit doing this).
Ask her on a family outing (She asked me out on a weekend family outing last weekend after she said she went to a D attorney?).
Schedule a MC session on my own. Ask her to go. If she doesn't agree, explain to her that I am going this first session because I understand that one person can help save a marriage?
Take a stand against our credit card bill and take action against it.
Let me know what you think? Are they too agressive. Too much pursuing?
BTW...This morning I endorsed one of my checks from work for the first time ever and told her I was taking it to the bank myself to deposit it.
180's keep coming to me:
The other night she made mention that she wished we wouldn't of stopped praying together at night. Maybe I should say something like: I'm going to pray tonight, would you like to join me?
Still confused about whether these are pursuing behaviors?
180's
Schedule a meeting with a financial advisor to go over credit card bill and help me create an action plan.
Which brings up another thought: It seems like their would be an extremely fine line between "showing" that you fighting for your marriage and pursuing?
Especially if your WAW is potentially in this mode of "I want my H to show me he is fighting for the M." To me it could almost be subconscious that a WAW wants this. Maybe not.
My W is still very resentful that I did not make a lot of these changes sooner. She has expressed this several times. If it was so easy to do...why did you not do them sooner? How can you change so much in 3-4 months?
Thoughts? Insight?
jdopp,
Just read your thread, and our sitch's are very similar. First off, you have some of the best who have already chimed in (Coach, Sandi and Puppy).
I would recommend you read a book that helped me understand communication and how to "show" my W love -
The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. That was a real eye opener for me b/c my W and I have had communication issues. It helped me understand how my W was trying to show me love (which I did not get) and how I was incorrectly trying to show her love (which I also didn't get). Basically, b/c she and I "spoke" different "love languages," we couldn't show love to the other b/c we were trying to show it in our different respective love languages. I know, it sounds like a lot of self help esque language, but it really makes sense.
A couple of things about your sitch that are different from mine that I think are good signs. One, your W is seeing a C and has agreed to MC. Two, your W told you she missed praying with you - in response to your question, I think telling her you were going to pray and she could join you if she wanted is the way to put it. I do not see that as pursuit. Just make sure she knows you are going to pray whether or not she joins you - not by saying that, but by doing it if she says she does not want to.
Coach told me one time about how to act around my W - he said by DB'ing, we are trying to get a frightened animal to eat from our hand. That made a lot of sense to me.
And, yes, there is a fine line b/w being nice and pursuing behavior. This is just something you have to feel. I have not point blank asked my W to do anything since the bomb. Instead, I plan for things to do with the kids, and I let her know we will be doing these - if she wants to come along, she is welcome to. After a while, all you will have to do is tell her what you are doing. Again, she just needs to have the impression (from your consistent actions) that if she says she does not want to join in that it is no big deal, and you do them anyway.
While none of this is easy - no one said it would be - I have found that if you can work on detaching and focus on yourself, the effort and the "fight" so to speak, do become easier. Have you read this article:
Developing Detachment It is important for you not to confuse detaching with withdrawing. Detaching is not giving your W the cold shoulder. Treat her as a close friend and then see what happens. Oh, and don't try to read and analyze every little thing she does - you WILL go nuts. That's where the detachment helps (and in many other areas).
Hope that helps.
I appreciate it. Thanks GIMA. I'm reading the article. I have really been able to not be too concerned with her reactions lately. Sometimes it is hard for me to not read and analyze every little thing she does. Part of Dbing states to find what works and do more of it. How do you know what works if you don't go back and analyze situations? I need to work on this more I think...
Note what works by watching her actions - what she says and how she acts. You are looking for positive signs, not the reasons behind them. If you do X, and she does Y, and assuming Y was a good thing, then it might be that X was something you would want to try again. Why she does Y doesn't matter and may, or may not be, the result of X. You won't know if X was the reason until you try X again.
Where I got tripped up at first was in trying to read and analyze everything W said/did. That will do nothing but drive you batsh$# and cultivate fear (which I think is the worst enemy).
Look for objective results without concerning yourself with the subjective reasons "why."
GIMA. How would you script the whole, "I'm doing this or this with the kids and if you would like to come you are more than welcome." Don't want to come off sounding like an a*$. But don't want to come off as needy or pursuing...
I usually said something like "S and I are going for a hike. You are welcome to join us if you want." We have always watched the Britcoms on public TV on Saturday nights - I would just let her know they were going to be on (this is after some DB'ing and stepping back a bit) - she would reply "Oh, great." Then when it was time, I just turned them on, sat down and watched. Without saying it, I left it up to her to decide whether she wanted to join me or not. No pressure from me.
As long as you are using a sincere tone (again, nothing over the top), it should not come off as being an a$$. I think it was Puppy who gave me a good way of regulating my beavior around W - act lik God himself were standing there watching me. Right now, it's important to approach her as a friend until she indicates she wants something more.
Also in MC, W made mention of how much attention I was paying towards my D's, it seemed to aggravate her.
I don't get it. Why would a daddy paying attention to his D's aggravate her? That sounds like jealousy. If that's the case and she's jealous of her children.....she has problems. Maybe it was her way of saying she wished you would give up part of that attention.
The fragile thing at this stage is to know where to draw the line in giving her the attention she wants and purusing. Purusing is chasing after her like you probably did when you first started dating her.
Sandi some of these things just go completely against what seems to be the standard in DBing. Wouldn't some of these actions be considered pursuing????
I would not invite her to the movies or places that hint of an a cozy, dark, or intimate environment before you have a better R with her. Going on "dates" at this point--is puruing. Inviting her along on "family" outings is not so bad b/c it is not just the "two of you".
If you want to schedule a MC for yourself, that's fine but I would not try to get her to go b/c that is putting pressure on her. This is not seen as "fighting for the M" to a WAW.
You see, the problem is that she feels that most of these things are "too little, too late".
If she doesn't agree, explain to her that I am going this first session because I understand that one person can help save a marriage?
No. Don't tell her things like that. Don't talk about the R to her. It's pursuing and it's pressure.
Take a stand against our credit card bill and take action against it.
Yes, that is taking action as the head of the family! She will see power and strength in that move! That is what she wants. Now, she may not like it at first--if it means she has to discontinue her spending habits, but she'll respect you for it. She has been in charge of running the family all these years, and she may not give up that "power" so gracefully. But, I think it has a lot to do with not trusting you with the money. You can't expect her to think otherwise if you've never earned her right to trust you. Give her time to get use to the idea. But, yes....this is more the areas I was referring to.
You can be fun and friendly and be a man any woman would love to spend time around without pursuing or putting pressue on her. That is what you need to focus on. What can you do to show more strength as a man? What can you do to show more "energy" in the M? How can you appear to be more decisive and determined about matters? When tempted to lay back and not give your "voice" on issues......what can you do to show your opinion should matter?
Those are the type things I think she would want to see "first" before you start trying to drag her off to a MC or the movies.
Later,
Sandi
Note what works by watching her actions - what she says and how she acts. You are looking for positive signs, not the reasons behind them. If you do X, and she does Y, and assuming Y was a good thing, then it might be that X was something you would want to try again. Why she does Y doesn't matter and may, or may not be, the result of X. You won't know if X was the reason until you try X again.
Where I got tripped up at first was in trying to read and analyze everything W said/did. That will do nothing but drive you batsh$# and cultivate fear (which I think is the worst enemy).
Look for objective results without concerning yourself with the subjective reasons "why."
That was a VERY good explanation of a concept that's always been hard to figure out!!!
Yeah, can you imagine how long it would have taken ME to explain that? But, I never was very good at Algebra....
Hijack Alert
Sandi, Would appreciate your advice on my Script on my thread (Changing Man) today.Thanks.
End Highjack Alert
Thanks Sandi, Puppy and to Gardener (for hijacking my thread!, just kidding Gardener). Sandi is the bomb!
Hijack Alert
Sandi, Would appreciate your advice on my Script on my thread (Changing Man) today.Thanks.
End Highjack Alert
God, I LOVE that movie!
- Puppy, who's suddenly quoting old late 70s/early 80s movies today
Thanks Puppy and Sandi.
Always enjoyed algebra. At times, this stuff seems likequantum physics though.
Travolta at his finest.
Actually, what was the one where he played a cowboy - think Scott Glenn was in it too?
Oh Sandi, can't you see, I'm in misereeee ...
Oh, sing it Danny!
Actually, what was the one where he played a cowboy - think Scott Glenn was in it too?
Urban Cowboy.
Oh, and, he's great in Pelham 123
THANK YOU. That was bugging me.
Haven't seen the new.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled programming...sorry for the hijack jdopp.
O.k. sorry to break up the hijacking convention
Just kidding feel free!!!
Pre-planning conversation here.
So in reference to the credit card issues. If I brought to her an actionable solution to the credit card problem and she says: I thought I told you that you should get your own credit card and we would split the debt in half when we get a D. In your best DBing understanding what would the response be?
What's the issue and the actionable solution?
Also, when did you last discuss D?
I thought I told you that you should get your own credit card and we would split the debt in half when we get a D.
Did she already tell you this?
Credit Card debt issue. I am going to look into options on how to handle this side of things.
We last spoke of D on Sunday. She brought it up three times last week.
The first time July 3rd she asked if I wanted to go on a family trip to first for the weekend. I said yeah sure let's go. Then she told me later that night that she went to go see a D attorney and that she thinks that we should go through mediation because we are so amicable with each other and not fighting. I told her I was sorry to hear that and I that I don't believe in D and that I would and could not stop her if that is what she wanted to do.
She kept going with the talk and I just listened. I got a little upset (I was trying so hard) and she said that she should have full custody of the children. THIS IS WHERE I THINK I MESSED UP (maybe not though). I told her that from what I understand that custody is 50%. She then mentioned that I seem weird when I talk to her and that the things I say are strange. She said that your body position was strange when I was talking with her. (I was sitting in a chair leaning towards her actively listening).
I asked her about her feelings at this point and she said she felt she needed to do this to feel "whole." We didn't say anything else and she said, "I'm going to bed are you coming up with me?" I said, "No I'll be up in a little while."
The next morning she completely freaked and said that was the most awful night she's had. She said she was scared of the way I was acting???? She said can we still go on the trip. I said yeah let's go. Everything seemed weird that whole weekend. She wanted to go to the fireworks show, she wanted to go to the amusement park, etc. etc.
The next time she brought it up was in MC. Where at the end of the session we both dismissed the MC counselor as trying to bait both of us into saying things.
The last time she brought it up was Sunday at a kid's birthday party that our D's went to. where she talked about that the family their was really segmented. Divorced parents and grandparents and kids all living together in harmony. I took a firm stand and said. I told you how I feel about that and I don't believe in it. She backed off and said, "Oh I wasn't exactly talking about us." After that just joking around, etc. I would have thought she would have been pouting or dissapointed, but she didn't show it if she was.
I would just be prepared for whatever answer she gives you. If it more D talk, then just stick with your gameplan: I cannot make you stay, but I do not agree with YOUR decision. It is not what I want. Say it calmly, but firmly.
So, what is the status of any more MC? Is your W still willing to go? If not, then drop it for now.
One thing that caught my eye was your W's statement that she was scared of the way you were acting. How are you acting around her, and has she ever said anything like this before the D talk?
Also, unless she volunteers to talk about your R or her feelings, leave that alone for now.
180's keep coming to me:
The other night she made mention that she wished we wouldn't of stopped praying together at night. Maybe I should say something like: I'm going to pray tonight, would you like to join me?
Still confused about whether these are pursuing behaviors?
jdopp, JMHO, I don't think this is pursuing. Can you expand on this? Who is usually in charge of prayer? Daily, weekly, Do you wish it had continued, too? Some girls really like the H to take the lead, so I think you have nothing to lose. Also, check out Retrouvaille, if you have not already. Peace, Goldey
She is watching.
Goldey, How are you?
Coach
Yes she says that I look different, act different, and talk different. I've been working out and have a new wardrobe, new haircut, I have really been reading up on relationship skills books and learning to communicate better. She says that she sees confidence now. My chest out, my head up.
I think we dismissed the MC together. He basically said oh sorry I couldn't help you, but if you both wanted to come back or if I wanted to come back I could.
We had a discussion out in the parking lot and my wife said that she felt like he was baiting me to say things that I didn't want to say. The MC kept trying to get me to say I was angry with her and that I was frustrated that my life was over, etc. I didn't take the bait.
I told her that I felt he was unprofessional in telling me how to feel.
Another interesting thing that happened that night is in the session he kept baiting my wife and said you guys have to detach now if you are going through this (little does he know, I already detached) that I will be completely devastated. She mentioned, "I tried to tell him we should sleep in seperate beds." I then mentioned that when "we spoke the other night she had said that she asked if it was wierd if we were still sleeping in seperate beds."
We got home and watched a movie together. I then told her I understand her need for space if she would like for me to sleep in a seperate room. She smile and said "No, let's go to bed."
Thanks goldey. Yes I do now. I really have gotten into a good place with my spirituality. My wife and I discussed this the other night. Hers and mine. She started crying and said that you know, "I was talking to (name here) the other night and said that I wish we wouldn't have stopped praying together." We stopped years ago. We go to church regularly together with the D's and say prayer every night at the table. Not in bed at night though.
jdopp
She seems very confused (or maybe I am based on what you are describing). That is actually pretty normal from what I have learned about a WAS. But, if she is confused, that's a good thing.
Keep doing what you are doing. She is watching. She may continue to bring up D - you cannot control that. Just stick with I can't make you stay/I don't agree with that decision.
What are you doing to GAL? Are you making yourself too available to her? Some of the things I have done are going to dinner and a movie with a friend after work - never did that before. If we are having a conversation that is going well, I am the one to end it - "I'm beat, gonna hit it early tonight. Good night." She needs to miss you and to realize that what she has built up in her mind as a wonderful life after you is not what it will really be like.
Just be strong, pleasant and upbeat aound her, without over doing it.
Goldey, How are you?
Coach
Sorry for the hijack, I'll start a thread one of these days.
Coach, glad to see things are improved w/ Greek. My sitch is, well, complicated. But I'm back home.
I chimed in, because something in this sitch is calling me. To make a long story short, I was a WAW last fall. I have long-term depression, and recognize some of the things you report your W is saying. Untreated issues can result in some comments that just don't make sense. (And can even continue once treatment is underway!)
I don't know how much you know about the meds, how they work, etc., but if you are slightly interested, and if your W is headed toward using them, you may want to read up.
I'll check back later. Peace.
Thanks GIMA. Confusion...Welcome to my world:)
I haven't GAL enough. I go out of town every other week for a few days and yes I do call once a day to talk with my kids, but obviously I have to talk with her as well.
It's weird, I was not a good communicator with my W the last few years. So I question myself on communicating more or less in my sitch.
I don't go out with new friends enough no. I want to see my kids every chance I get. I know I need to do this.
I was thinking of taking the kids out of town to my parents this weekend but haven't decided that yet. Long, long drive especially after out of town.
So I question myself on communicating more or less in my sitch.
Quality, not quantity.
Pick up
The Five Love Languages book. It will really help.
I can understand wanting to spend time at home if you travel a lot for work.
I thought I told you that you should get your own credit card and we would split the debt in half when we get a D.
Did she already tell you this?
Yes Coach. She did. Thoughts?
I thought I told you that you should get your own credit card and we would split the debt in half when we get a D.
Did she already tell you this?
Yes Coach. She did. Thoughts?
Wait...I misunderstood your highlight. No she did not say I thought I told you that etc. etc.
When she brought up the D lawyer the other night she made mention of splitting the credit card in half, before I said I don't believe in D.
I was trying to preplan a potential conversation with the quote you highlighted.
Don't tell her what you are going to do about paying down the CC just do it. Maybe leave out some notes on your plan for her to see.
OK. This thing just got ugly fast. Need help.
Wife whipped out the Divorce Papers this morning. I told her I don't agree with Divorce. I don't want to talk about it or discuss it. I told her that I want to work on the marriage. If she wants to pursue this option then I will open up a second checking account, she can have the current one, I'll get my check deposited in there, if we go to mediation, I will have my own attorney and she needs to move out.
COACH NEED HELP!!!
BTW they were Mediation papers
Slow down and breathe. Did she tell you that you will be served with the D papers? What brought this on?
If she starts talking about divorce/money/custody let her know your attorney will handle that.
Take care of yourself, no drinking, try to eat and sleep right. Don't get into any R talks.
You can handle it. Get thru tonite without getting into any emotional discussions.
No she had them in her hand. She said that she didn't want to get them served to me.
I think from her response she might do something crazy, like file custody or something.
Ditto what Coach is telling you.
It is easy, too easy, to spend every waking moment dwelling on your sitch. Hit the pause button. Go for a walk, or head to the driving range.
I'd suggest making some plans this evening so that you are not available to get sucked into a R talk.
Fear will cause us to do stupid things. See if you can buy yourself 24 hours. Peace. Goldey
Did you hire a lawyer?
Don't try to think what she might do. You control yourself.
You need a plan to stay busy and productive.
This is real and it is manageable if you are prepared. What happens if you don't sign or go to mediation?
Any other insight as to what I should be doing now. Aside from GAL...
What if's
What if my W refuses to move out. She has no job.
How do I need to act right now around her?
Also my W just dropped this on me before I went out of town on a business trip. My kids are with her. I have no idea what is going on at the house right now.
Should I go back?
First of all, you have to calm down.
You can't control what she's doing. Going back is probably going to make the sitch worse.
Do you think she will take the kids? It's probably illegal if she does so.
Thanks stuck. I had to get control of myself there. Went and watched a movie with a couple of friends last night. Preparing myself today to take this head on.
Got control again. Went this morning to open a checking account in my name and applied for a credit card.
Watching a movie now to get my mind off of things.
Alive and kicking.
I am the architect of my own thoughts. I am in control. Thank you Coach for reminding me of the Stockdale Paradox: This is real and this is manageable. I will fall, I will get up and I will continue walking forward.
I wanted you to know that I had not been around the board in a couple of days due to illness. I have not quit "you". I will be back and talking soon. You have wonderful people coming here to support you.
Take care,
Sandi
Hey sandi.
I hope you feel better.
God knows we need you here.
Thank you Sandi. I hope you are feeling better.
Thanks for the well wishes. Been trying to catch up on this.
We got home and watched a movie together. I then told her I understand her need for space if she would like for me to sleep in a seperate room. She smile and said "No, let's go to bed."
I realize everyone is different, but it seems odd that a woman who is talking about getting a D, still wants to sleep in the same bed with her H. I'm just saying "most" WAW's don't want to do that.
I do think she's confused about your changes and doesn't understand why you are doing them "now". Maybe it is just that you seem "different"....not scary. There are several reasons that she could be in the state of mind she's in. I think most of it started out as health related.....like depression, hormonal, etc. That can easily lead to other problems. That MC certainly didn't help matters!
She needs some hope that her feelings toward you can change, but all you can do is to continue to show her how you've improved. Don't discuss it and don't talk about how good the M can be, etc. Stay away from R talks if at all possible. The more you are focused on the M problems, the more she is going to be seeing the worst in you. When you stop thinking about the MR all the time, then she will see the new & improved you. That is when she'll start to fall in love with you. Something to shoot for, wouldn't you say?
Thanks Sandi. That is my goal now. Got home from my business trip and W was gone with the kids. She is staying with a friend of ours for the immediate future about an hour away. Has the kids. She is having me served D papers on Monday. I don't know if I escalated the issue the other day or not. Apparently I did. You never know though. It could have been her plan all along. I can't think about mistakes if that is what I made. Have to keep my goal ahead of me. Have talked to her a couple of times. Kids are good. I am going to have them next weekend.
The past couple of times we've talked she's felt inclined to give me ideas on how to occupy my time (weird).
I have to GAL right now. Can't sit around and mope or feel sorry for myself. Staying positive. Going hiking.
You sound good and looking at GAL, staying busy, etc. That is what will help you a lot. Keep posting and let us know how things are going.
Thanks Sandi for checking on me.
Looks like my W is fast tracking the D now. I am still DBing, just have to look out for my kids now with the legal stuff. I am acting AS IF and concentrating on GAL...while my head spins with legal info at the same time.
Being away from her now...It makes me see the madness that our life had become in as little as 4 or 5 months. The constant tension. I am not angry with my W right now...I almost feel sad for her. I can see her sadness more and more as each day passes without her. The disconnect with reality. The constant idea that the grass is always greener in our marriage. It permeated throughout or 10 years together.
Right now I am mourning the apparent loss of our family as this D becomes fast tracked and I have to fight legally for time with my D's. The reality of the scenario felt even more real as I sat in a lawyers office today. I feel very saddened and hurt for our children right now and what they are going through and are about to go through.
I feel very wrong right now to feel some of these feelings...Am I completely detaching? Am I accepting the reality of the situation as I had not previously? No matter how dark this gets I do not want to give up on my goal: To reconcile with my W.
It just doesn't seem like it would be a reality right now. She seems so bent on moving forward. There is no way that we could reconcile right now unless she woke up?? This person who I talk to now, I just don't know who she is anymore.
It sounds as if it has really hit you in the face and you may feel a bit numb......or can't define your feelings at the moment. I haven't been in your shoes, so I can't truly say that I "know" how you are feeling. But, I do care and I am so sorry this is happening. I hope you will not give up posting b/c you need the support here, okay? We want to hear from you and see how things are going in your life. Things have a strange way of making big turns......so you never know what may be down the road. The important thing is to take good care of yourself and be there for your kids.
Sandi
Thanks Sandi. Thanks for checking on me. I really appreciate it. We are still cordial. Talk everyday as I call to talk with my little D's. I need to detach, detach, detach...
Keep working on it and at it. It will come, and it will bring peace.
jd,
You need to talk to your lawyer and get your kids back into your house. She is establishing sole custody at the moment, don't let it stand. File for temporary custody today. Do not leave your house unless you are forced to do so my the court.
Thanks Esox. Actually a parenting plan has been signed by a judge already.
Hi SG. Thanks for asking. Its been a while. I'm fine. I'm in protection mode for my D's right now. W moved out, has my D's (for the most part). I'm pretty sure about an A now. Just couldn't see it while I was around her. Never fully detached. For everyone DBing: Please, please, please detach. You will never fully understand the sitch unless you completely detach. Do not get into a false sense of detachment. If you have to ask yourself,"Am I detached?". You are not! Listen to your instincts!!! I can't really say that I am DBing anymore. The legal monster has gotten a hold of me and it is brutal.