On being the best O'Dog I can be #2

Continued from:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...545#Post1793545

I've copied this post over from my previous thread to make reading and responding a little easier.

___

Hi OrangeDog:
I saw your post on SmileysPerson's thread and thought I would come over to your thread and learn more about what you've been going through and sharing...

I'm glad you've got Coach here already - he's got the kind of calm perspective a lot of us need when we're hit with the worst of our own emotions...

I hope you don't mind, but I thought I would copy and past what you wrote on SP's thread:

Quote:
My W is one of those people who was always right. I was always wrong and never good enough. I've spent the past three years trying to dig myself out of depression only to get hit with the bomb (she admitted she was waiting till I could handle it). I'm probably stronger now then I've been in the past years but I don't think she was healthy for me. I'm sorry I don';t have a point here but maybe I should'nt work on it. Maybe I should find someone who better works with me. Comments?

So...reading what you wrote above and taking it with what you wrote in your post about her making you feel like you were always wrong and never good enough...my inclination would be to look for what, in your/your past/your family of origin, conditioned you for this type of relationship. It's not that I think there's much use to digging into the past - I'm much too sold on solution-based therapy for that - but I do think that something about our past contributes to the patterns we repeat into the present - particularly if we find ourselves with a partner that seems to use our most sensitive vulnerabilities against us...

BUT....here's a big thing that jumped out at me...you wrote..."maybe I should find someone who works better with me" - and that sent me spinning...primarily because I have come to agree whole-heartedly with the idea that we can never be in a happy relationship - and cannot make another person happy - until we are complete in ourselves. In other words, and I know this is bordering on truisms, we can't expect to have a fulfilling relationship if we feel incomplete - it just doesn't happen. I once said it here before...that line, "you complete me" must be one of the worst things ever said in film...it's such a horrible fiction - and such a wrong way to think about love (and marriage).

I never would have said this just a year ago, but I am now convinced that we can never be happy with another person until we are able to be wholly at ease with ourselves...not that we don't need other people - the very design of our bodies suggests a predisposition for more than a casual interaction - and a need for physical contact - but we have to be able to enjoy the moments we have to ourselves when on our own, so that when we find another person, we do not burden them with our expectations - or with any of the responsibility for making us happy. It just does not work to put our happiness into the hands of another person - but when we are fulfilled on our own, we get to enjoy the tremendous kind of happiness that comes from giving - true giving - without wanting/needing anything in return. It's astonishing how powerful that form of love feels...but for some of us...like me...it took annihilating what had brought me to my point of crisis...and that was the strange opportunity presented to me by my STBX's dropping of that bomb...

-Carlos...

___

Carlos - excellent post. I will begin thinking more about these items more and get some responses.

I do realize that M is not meant to complete our happiness. I think near the end of the R, I was relying to heavily on her. Despite my rant on Smiley's thread last night and my feelings of loneliness, I would like to be alone for a while and fix O'Dog. I'd like to really find what works in me.

I asked the question "Maybe I should find someone who works better with me" but maybe what I should have said is "Why am I fighting so hard for this?" There was something unhealthy in the R. It brought me down and made her angry.

I'm not going to concern myself with R whatsoever (as I shouldn't have done in the first place). As seen in the previous posts, she's still full-speed ahead on the D and I still have work to do. My purpose for DB just to work on O'Dog.

I need help working through my anger.

I have a bunch of activities planned this weekend, Tour de France starts this weekend, I have Zen on Sunday, and an appt with Psy on Monday.

What else? Suggestions?

My T recommended a great book to me when I first went to see him - and we still thought we were going to work on my anger issues...Freeing the Angry Mind by C. Peter Bankart...excellent book....

-c.

Originally Posted By: orangedog

I need help working through my anger.

I have a bunch of activities planned this weekend, Tour de France starts this weekend, I have Zen on Sunday, and an appt with Psy on Monday.

What else? Suggestions?

The antidote for anger is compassion...sustained compassion. Not self-sacrificing compassion...but simple, everyday, basic compassion for yourself and others. Be compassionate towards yourself and others. Realize that when you're angry, you're really hurt anxious, or uncomfortable...and so are others'. Care when you, or others, are hurt, anxious, or uncomfortable. Try hard to heal your hurt, regulate your anxiety, and improve your discomfort...and support others' efforts to do the same. Treat yourself, and others', with value and respect...even when you disagree with them or their behavior. Always appreciate the assets and qualities that you and others' bring to your relationships. Don't criticize or ignore yourself or others'. Don't talk over other people. Don't try to control, manipulate, coerce, threaten or intimidate others'...or try to make them feel bad. Work hard to discover and correct flaws in your behavior. Try to understand others' perspectives and sympathasize with their feelings...even if you disagree with them. Be true to your deepest values, and be the best person you can be. Keep your committment to be compassionate.

I was one who had real problems with anger, resentment, and verbal abuse...and I've learned that compassion is the antidote for these. I don't believe that I would have been able to stop these behaviors had I not made a successful committment to become more compassionate. It works.

Thanks HealthyDad and Antlers.

I feel bad right now.

I feel like my previous Friendiness was partially based on hope. I know I wasn't supposed to have it but it was there. The baby steps lead me to think something in the R was changing but in the end it was still the same - she's still full speed ahead on D but wants me to still be in her life as her friend.

Now I feel like the best thing for me is just to get away from her. I don't want to be friends right now and I don't want her influence in my life. Maybe sometime but not right now. I need to work on me.

I feel a little two-faced in the fact that I could be friends then but now it's difficult. That I was partially doing it just in my best interest?...ouch.

I'm sorry if it doesn't make sense. It's a difficult emotional mix and hard to explain. I'm just saying with the realization and affirmation comes another difficult side.

I've got a lot of strong emotions right now. This week has been probably the third hardest (bomb, move out, then this).

Let's just say my faith/belief system is being tested and I don't like it.

Odog--

Hope is fine--we should all have something to hope for in life. In reality, though, you had expectations that your frendiness would effect change and when it did not work the way you expected it to, you were disappointed. Have hope, not expectations. There is a difference and it falls under Coach's infamous Stockdale Paradox quote.

Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW

Dude, we're all with you. The only faith you need to have in these moments is knowing that you will feel better.

I'm being a dumba** and watching a frickin' movie where the parents are divorcing and the kid is right in the middle...sob sob...total gluttony but at least I'm exercising while I do it.

Sometimes you've just got to relish in the suckiness of it and then get back on track.

Just found this on the DB Quotes thread (good stuff there)-

Quote:

� 90 yrs young � a columnist in Ohio.

"To celebrate growing older, I once wrote the 45 lessons life taught me... It is the most-requested column I've ever written. My odometer rolled over to 90 in August, so here is the column once more:

1. Life isn't fair, but it's still good.
2. When in doubt, just take the next small step.
3. Life is too short to waste time hating anyone...
4. Your job won't take care of you when you are sick. Your friends and parents will. Stay in touch.
5. Pay off your credit cards every month.
6. You don't have to win every argument. Agree to disagree.
7. Cry with someone. It's more healing than crying alone.
8. It's OK to get angry with God. He can take it.
9. Save for retirement starting with your first pay check.
10. When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.
11. Make peace with your past so it won't screw up the present.
12. It's OK to let your children see you cry.
13. Don't compare your life to others. You have no idea what their journey is all about.
14. If a relationship has to be a secret, you shouldn't be in it.
15. Everything can change in the blink of an eye. But don't worry; God never blinks.
16. Take a deep breath. It calms the mind.
17. Get rid of anything that isn't useful, beautiful or joyful.
18. Whatever doesn't kill you really does make you stronger.
19. It's never too late to have a happy childhood. But the second one is up to you and no one else.
20. When it comes to going after what you love in life, don't take no for an answer.
21. Burn the candles, use the nice sheets, wear the fancy lingerie. Don't save it for a special occasion. Today is special.
22. Over prepare, then go with the flow.
23. Be eccentric now. Don't wait for old age to wear purple.
24. The most important sex organ is the brain.
25. No one is in charge of your happiness but you.
26. Frame every so-called disaster with these words �In five years, will this matter?'
27. Always choose life.
28. Forgive everyone everything.
29. What other people think of you is none of your business.
30. Time heals almost everything. Give time time.
31. However good or bad a situation is, it will change.
32. Don't take yourself so seriously. No one else does.
33. Believe in miracles.
34. God loves you because of who God is, not because of anything you did or didn't do.
35. Don't audit life. Show up and make the most of it now.
36. Growing old beats the alternative -- dying young.
37. Your children get only one childhood.
38. All that truly matters in the end is that you loved.
39. Get outside every day. Miracles are waiting everywhere.
40. If we all threw our problems in a pile and saw everyone else�s, we�d grab ours back.
41. Envy is a waste of time. You already have all you need.
42. The best is yet to come.
43. No matter how you feel, get up, dress up and show up.
44. Yield.
45. Life isn't tied with a bow, but it's still a gift.

It makes perfect sense. I think everybody starts DB because they really want to bring their spouse back to the relationship.

StrongMaahhvalousWoman,

It seems I don't learn (get, internalize, or whatever the word) these concepts all at once but in levels.

I've been working on the Stockdale Paradox and Smiley's Spier's Doctrine for a while but once again there was a deeper layer that I hadn't got to yet. I supposedly knew all along and wasn't supposed to be carrying expectations but. And if this is any indication then there are still layers upon layers.

There is a Zen koan, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him". At this moment I understand this to mean to me, "If you think you've finally 'made it', then you are just fooling yourself. The real work has just begun."

Thank you for the kind words. ExtremeGAL weekend needs to get back into progress. The house is clean, the dog is clean (the real dog too, not just the Orange one). There's a party to go to.

More talk later. Right now mind needs rest.

O' dog, one of my biggest challenges has been to not have expectations. I have to remind myself often that I am taking things one day at a time. I still get ahead of myself, but I am staying busy enough right now that I dont have time to focus my worry on it.

bluerain,

I've probably had expectations since bomb day. I expect to get papers in the next few weeks and right now I don't look forward to seeing or talking with her so for the first time I don't have expectations...I think.

This time of year it's easy enough to stay busy so I don't have to think about it so much.

Extreme GAL weekend is getting near the end. Roundup:

Mt bike ride through singletrack hell and tailgate

Outdoor Reggae Concert sponsored by local brewpub. From what I remember it was pretty good - Jah Love!

Mt bike ride - got charged by mama moose guarding her baby.

Downtown hang out.

Downtown 4th stuff.

4th party in sun

Beer on the deck of brewpub late at night

morning Zen - met the local master who'd been on retreat in Japan for several weeks.

Open water swim.

Rollerblading with fast running dog - crashed in weeds - fun.

Met a few cuties (just talked)

Damn good GALing, od. Bravo.

Odd how things align sometimes with the DB/RL mix...I was just talking with a dear friend of mine about how I used to confuse hope/expectations/faith - and that when things started going well in my life (talking work-wise here), that I would fall into these traps of expecting things to keep going that route...similar thing then happened when I picked up the DB mantle - and thought, hey, this magic formula will save my marriage and make everything right...well...it made things better, just not in a way I ever would have anticipated - and the big lesson was in learning to let go of expectations...not just with regards to relationships - but in larger terms as well...

Sounds like you're doing well, OD...though I' sorry to see that you find yourself in limboland. Not the most pleasant place to be, I know - as I was there for many months - until I was finally the one that asked my STBX to move out rather than have her continue to use it as a threat/way to control me.

...which is to say...one of the wonders of getting detached, of working toward detachment, is that it frees one so nicely from another person's ambiguity. It allows for the acknowledgment of that ambiguity without attachment/interest...just in the same way one deals with a thought while sitting zazen...acknowledged, and let go...

I haven't done singletrack in ages...miss it...what part of the world are you in, OD?

-carlos.

Yes, I discovered the expectations were as I saw written earlier, "premeditated disappointment".

Indeed the entire future could be one big expectation. I am learning to wake up and appreciate and enjoy what I have at the moment.

She stated the limbo won't last long. She would like to file papers as soon as some financial matters are taken care of. That brought disappointment, then anger, then the intolerability of living with those emotions, then a move to "I don't need this anymore". Detachment. As I stated in earlier posts I'm sure there's more to go.

I talked with her briefly today when she called about some kid matters. While it was pleasant, and I need to be careful I don't melt when I hear that voice, I kept it in a business frame and didn't feel as much.

I live in "Far North Big State" as Smiley might say. I do Tris so I'm mostly a time-trial roadie but I enjoy the intensity and concentration of singletrack.

Quote:

Indeed the entire future could be one big expectation. I am learning to wake up and appreciate and enjoy what I have at the moment.

Nahhhhhhhhhh -- you know as well as I do that the "premeditated disappointment" will wax and wane and very quickly (I believe -- in fact, much more quickly than we would (I think) like to believe "now") wane much more than it waxes.

Quote:

I need to be careful I don't melt when I hear that voice

I think we all struggle with this bit. @aliveandkicking talks about it a lot and so do @Gardener and @ShockedOne. To me I find it's difficult not to fall into the Ways of the Husband. Even now -- or at least up to (and, as I think about it, somewhat shockingly, during) Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon -- I find myself having to choke-off the "hons" and "sugars" and "sweetnesses" and what-not-like-terms of affection.

Quote:

Mt bike ride - got charged by mama moose guarding her baby.

Wow. That'll motivate ya! Feets don't fail me now!

Understandable, though, mama moose charging you. I mean, Mrs. Palin does have a lot of emotional stuff on her plate now....

Kids will be staying with extended family an extra week. I'll just continue playing this week.

Hi O'dog,
BTW, I hate moose! Have you ever done the Mt Marathon race?

Got charged again today when we came around a blind corner too fast. We had a big group of riders but it made no difference. She came at us three times. People were diving behind trees and holding their bikes up for cover. Moose: big as horses and dumb as rocks.

I haven't done Mt Marathon but it's the kind of punishment I enjoy. I do a lot of the local tris and endurance events. Finished an Ironman in 06.

Visit with Psy today. Mostly about accepting D and moving on. Talked some about disappointment, anger, and detachment. He asked what I thought my life would be like in this new time. I really hadn't got there yet - like it is now I guess but new things may evolve.

Once again he noted I'm in a much better shape than a few years ago when I was struggling with a lot of life direction issues.

Sounds like you're on the right path, OD.

I got charged by a moose once...when I got between her and her calf...I didn't know I could climb a tree that fast.

BTW...do you ever just stop and read the metaphors in(to) things that just happen over the course of a day? Like coming around a blind corner too fast?

Just after my STBX moved out I went running in the rain - dark sky in the middle of the afternoon - near the end of my run, one of those runs that brings up a swell of emotions (and tears), I looked up and saw the sun shining through a small hole in the clouds...and just the day before a friend of mine had spent a good hour telling me that the darkness isn't permanent, that there's always the possibility of that light - and that if I opened my mind, I would see it...and there it was...and then the tears rushed out, but they felt wonderful.

-Carlos.

Beautiful.

I've had moments like this.

Huge hike yesterday with lots of vert. This morning I way overslept. Coworkers thought maybe I took an Ambien Adventure (as in "Hi, this is Orangedog. I'm calling from a faraway airport and have no idea how I got here"). No, I just needed an overtraining break.

Very short convo with W. She called because, "We hadn't talked in a long time." Just a few short questions about ch13/7 (waiting for attys) and some kid pickup things. She's going out of town this weekend. whatever. No cause to interupt my own GAL.

Ok, what's the deal? It seems like I can't go anywhere without scanning the crowd for pretties.

*waving* You saw me, huh?

LOL

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Ok, what's the deal? It seems like I can't go anywhere without scanning the crowd for pretties.

OK, So you're a man!

Join the club...

Originally Posted By: goingtofixME

*waving* You saw me, huh?

LOL

gtfME.

Thank you for my first laugh of the new day.
lol and I mean ol!

Looking at the merchandise is not the same as trying on! Window shop all you want!

Have you ever considered the Eco Challenge? I used to want to do that so badly...still think about it...but would have to do a lot of training, and I don't think its around anymore...

Getting outdoors seems like some of the best GALing one can do...

Oh, yeah, and scanning crowds...seems mighty healthy to me.

Goingtofixme: What was that little number you had on yesterday? Mmmmm...Hmmm...

healthydad: I have strange attractions to ultras. EcoChallenge is gone but there's an adventure racing group up here that does stuff late fall.

I'm mostly built for endurance but for the past two years my training has mostly been short-intense stuff. Long rides/runs on the weekends were leaving me with terrible Blue Mondays. I'm still not sure what it was all about; depression/anxiety, overtraining, metabolic, or RX's. Labs and Dr always said everything was fine.

I'm now at a point where I can lengthen out the rides/runs and not suffer on subsequent days. Just in time.

I loaned a set of pedals to cute woman for a big race. She came over to my house and I even put them on her bike...I hope that's not too big of a step.

(OrangeDog is not being serious here).

I spent day with kids. First time in a week and a half. They went down for the vacation then kids spent an extra week there. A little bit of adjustment was required to the roughhouse and noise but nice to see them.

Spent day mt biking then swimming in lake.

We had to stop by W's house briefly to pick up the kids bikes. She wasn't there (out of town) and I sent the kids in alone to get their stuff but still the visit had an downward effect. Ughhh...

Another day of wearing out the kids - pedal faster!

W stopped by early evening to pick up youngest. She visited for a short while mostly w/ daughter. Mentioned a little about the trip but was mostly sick and tired (literally - allergies or something). Kind of a non-event.

Hmmm...there hasn't been a lot to report in the OrangeDog soap opera lately.

Anniversary in two days. Currently dark and don't care. How do I respond to event?

Consider a simple card, with a note saying despite the current situation you did not want to let the day go by with recongination. Perhaps point out being grateful for the past, the kids, something?

You know, I can't say I'm having a miserable time lately. Playing hard. Meeting new people. Doing new things.

Last year, I said nothing...it was just another day...a sad one at the time, but just another day. This year, I don't know if I'll even think about it...I think you're doing great.

Anniversary - I don't think I'm going to say or do anything about it. Other side is likely not to say or do anything either.

--

Yesterday she wrote a pissy text because I didn't sit with her and BFF at soccer. I didn't respond.

Got a nastygram from w about soccer game. I'm not going to respond to it although I'm very tempted to write a one-liner; "Don't tell me how to think.

I would like you to think about the position you put D in last night by sitting on the opposite end of the field from her. She wants to protect you and make sure you aren't lonely, which is why part way through the night she picked up her chair to move next to you. You could have sat in a chair right next to her the whole game instead of isolating yourself. I can't imagine that a counselor would tell you that's a good thing.
�
I realize you don't like BFF's role, but you don't have to be anything more than civil with her or me. BFF is a good influence on them, they consider her an aunt. Acting the way you did last night... which I assume is because of BFF... adversely affects your kids. Also, you almost did not say goodbye to S, which I noticed is another thing you have done on "My nights" ... just walked off without even saying anything to me or the kids. I realize you are "processing" and not feeling like interacting, but you need to remember that the kids take it all in.�

She just called me up and said I've "been a jerk lately". "What's your problem?"

I said I didn't have a problem and really didn't carry on with the conversation.

Wow! To her, even when I do nothing, apparently I can't even do that right.

two more emails about kid details. leave me alone.

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Anniversary - I don't think I'm going to say or do anything about it. Other side is likely not to say or do anything either.

--

So what if the other side does nothing! Act...don't react!

I saw this recently on this board...

"Regardless of our current struggles, I didn't think the day should go by without being recognized...after all, a lot of good has come from this day, like (your kids). And no matter what the future holds, I'll always be grateful for that."

Don't write it in a romantic card...write it in a generic card, and leave it in her car, or have the kids give it to her. "Lead", as Coach would say.

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Got a nastygram from w about soccer game. I'm not going to respond to it although I'm very tempted to write a one-liner; "Don't tell me how to think.

I would like you to think about the position you put D in last night by sitting on the opposite end of the field from her. She wants to protect you and make sure you aren't lonely, which is why part way through the night she picked up her chair to move next to you. You could have sat in a chair right next to her the whole game instead of isolating yourself. I can't imagine that a counselor would tell you that's a good thing.
�
I realize you don't like BFF's role, but you don't have to be anything more than civil with her or me. BFF is a good influence on them, they consider her an aunt. Acting the way you did last night... which I assume is because of BFF... adversely affects your kids. Also, you almost did not say goodbye to S, which I noticed is another thing you have done on "My nights" ... just walked off without even saying anything to me or the kids. I realize you are "processing" and not feeling like interacting, but you need to remember that the kids take it all in.�

Don't respond to it. Shed it like water off a duck's back!

Originally Posted By: orangedog

She just called me up and said I've "been a jerk lately". "What's your problem?"

I said I didn't have a problem and really didn't carry on with the conversation.

Wow! To her, even when I do nothing, apparently I can't even do that right.

Remember OD, 'doing nothing IS doing something'! Do a lot of that! Keep being the best dad, and the best OD you possibly can.

Had a good discussion with Woman Friend. She reminded me of a few things and gave me that unique insight that only she can provide.

Grrr...Just an angry day.

Hey OD...my STBX wrote/writes emails to me like that all the time...once, a while ago, when I shared one such note with my T his comment was that she was acting as though we were still in a relationship - and that she seemed to want to draw me into her drama...as I write this now it seems so damn obvious I can't believe I needed my T to point it out to me...it was also the session in which he said, "it doesn't seem to me like she's asking you any questions, so there's no need to respond." That's kind of my guideline now whenever I get an email from STBX - if there's a legitimate question I answer it - but if she's trying to tell me how to parent - I let it go...since she has nothing to do with how I am with my kids.

-Carlos.

Is there any information of value in the email (s). I mean, ego, DB, all that aside, do you need to be more conscious of any of the things she pointed out?

BFF dropped off kids last night. She brought by an extra DVD player. I had been playing movies off the laptop plugged into the TV. Not unlike a plate of fresh-baked cookies. It's hard to be angry with one bearing gifts.

--

@A&K - W, BFF, & I have very little interaction. Short of that soccer game, it's only pickups and dropoffs. I'm fine with them.

Maybe I should have sat with them at the soccer game but I couldn't do it at the time. It was just damn difficult to want to walk over and sit down next to W (who's angry) and BFF (now new soccer mom) and fake it. I was talking with some other parents and made myself at home elsewhere. So I failed the act "As-If" thing that night. She could have walked over and talked to me too.

--

This whole thing assumes I want to. And right now I don't.

Argh....What a man f up I made. TODAY is our anniversary not yesterday. I got this from her via email:

"...its on my mind so I thought it might be on yours that today is our anniversary. I know it is a tough time, but we have been in each other's lives for a long time. I know you don't understand how I could not want to be married and still think its possible to be family, but you are the father of my children and a great dad and I will always respect that. I'm sorry I could not make it work for me."

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Argh....What a man f up I made. TODAY is our anniversary not yesterday. I got this from her via email:

"...its on my mind so I thought it might be on yours that today is our anniversary. I know it is a tough time, but we have been in each other's lives for a long time. I know you don't understand how I could not want to be married and still think its possible to be family, but you are the father of my children and a great dad and I will always respect that. I'm sorry I could not make it work for me."

No sweat OD this is still about her.

Quote:

I'm sorry I could not make it work for me."

Gosh, I am sorry, the kids are sorry and both of our families are sorry you couldn't work it out either.

That just rubbed me the wrong way. I don't recommend you respond that way. Just a attempt at humor by me.

Cheers

Here was my response. I wasn't sure what to write but if I deserve a 2x4 then swing away.

My phone reminder pinged me this morning but I didn't need it; I was already thinking about it. It's all different now but you're right, we've been part of each others lives and have a lot of history. Tough times but I guess we'll figure it out.

Not feeling all that great today. Too hard to think - mind is swimming through mud.

My BK atty turned out to be very unresponsive. There is an important deadline today so W and I will modify existing plan for lower payments with existing atty. A cheap and easy fix but not as comprehensive as other possibility. I might change my case later but not with Mr. Unresponsive Esq.

---

Random thoughts on dark clouds.

I'm not supposed to care right now but I do. Why? I've been trying to distance myself and detach - and I feel so much better when I do. Why do I currently have this notion that BFF and W get everything they want? I should not allow myself to feel defeated, angered, jealous, or rejected.

These emotions come but I worry they linger too long. That they plant a seed of future unhappiness. I feel I'm not doing as well as I could at managing these (maybe you've read some of my late-night rants). I've got the tools but I'm having trouble using them right now.

Hey OD,
Of course you're feeling the way you do - how could you not...my anniversary last year - despite my telling myself it was just another day - was just depressing as hell...

When I read her note to you - my immediate thought was similar to Coach's - it's still about her - and now she's just saying what she needs to say to make herself feel better - perhaps to assuage some guilt - who knows - but, in the end, I suppose it doesn't matter since what you're saying in your last post that you've still got emotions to work through - still have stuff about your own feelings that you need to understand - and I think that's where your attention should go.

Do you know what your tells are for you - when your actions, words, thoughts sort of let you know that something about a situation is troubling you - and that there may be unresolved issues that need to be addressed? For me it's fear - as soon as I feel any fear - I try to take it in (doesn't always happen quickly) and I try to process it - feel it, let it wallop me if necessary - and then once I've stepped into it and faced it - I see what's there and in that calm afterward I take action...Perhaps part of how you're feeling is a way for you to tell yourself that there are some underlying issues that have to surface for you to heal?

It seems the more we try to push emotions away the more force they take on - and then the greater their power to grow into a future unhappiness...sometimes I think we have to set aside the tools and just feel what we have to feel - and then pick up the tools once the feelings have passed through us...

And I still think you sound like you're on the right path...

-Carlos.

Thanks Carlos,

I shared W's note with Woman Friend and she said the same thing too; it's still all about her. She even said it reminded her of fishing comments women make such as, "This outfit makes me look fat"

Do I know what my tells are? No, maybe I should play more cards. Probably sudden mood change from happy to sour, crankiness, or inability to focus. I will begin watching more.

Tired. Off-road Tri today.

Not feelin' too bad after the xterra series Tri yesterday. Not my usual event but fun.

Rode kids around on a Harley yesterday (not mine but I wish it was...I sold my bike this spring to pay finance messes) then saw a dumb movie. Fun.

Dropped off kids today. I saw the hood of the car open and W was trying to change bulb in headlight. She was trying, printed out instructions from internet, but clueless. I helped...yeah, I know, hit me with them 2x4s. Both of us seemed to be aware of the potential cake-eating here and she said at least twice that she had tried to do this herself. Had some small talk about her neighbors complaining about lawn maintenance and medical insurance woes. Decent. Not too emotional one way or the other.

Hey,
So when is your next event? Tri sounds like it must have been fun and rewarding.

I don't see much wrong in helping change a bulb...it's what you would do for any friend that needed help, right? I did the same thing for my STBX just after she left...though I got to hear comments about how I was doing it wrong - and how I was going to mess up the wiring of the car (a Prius). But I was still in friend mode then...these days...I'm not so much in friend mode...so I just stay clear - but if things are friendly, and you are doing what it right by you - then I see nothing wrong in helping out...

-c.

Next Tri Aug 2nd. It will be an Olympic distance.

I'm not as strong or fast as in years past. Part of it's training specific - I've been playing a lot and doing other things like hikes, hill climbs, and Rollerblading. And part of it is kind of a reintroduction. I feel like my body is back now. In '06 I did an IM but in '07 and '08 I didn't do much. I got fatigued very easily and couldn't do long workouts without suffering Blue Mondays (physical effects of depression?)

The mt biking thing was so much fun. I've been a dyed-in-the-wool-jersey roadie for so long but I enjoy the challenge of single track.

There's a kids mt bike team here and D says she's on for it next season. S is a little mixed but he would be excellent. His bike handling skills and dexterity at 7 are amazing. I don't have many skills to pass on to my offspring in sports such as baseball or football but I can help em out with bikes, running, chasing moose...

---

Yesterday I took a friend's Harley out. Oh so much fun...four wheels move the body. Two wheels move the soul.

---

It's so hard for me to define that border of friend or dark. On Sunday I was just not thinking about it and trying to do what seemed natural. I seemed to have hit it right in the middle because I didn't seem to be emotionally drawn either way.

From Hallowell's Crazy Busy Tip of the Week:

"Managing Choices

Our last tip addressed managing data; the same principles can be applied to managing choices. Today's world offers so many choices and opportunities that it can be overwhelming.
In order to make this crazy world work for you and not against you, you must decide what matters to you most and focus your attention on that. Once you have identified what really matters to you, you'll find making decisions to be much easier."

--

What matters to me most...hmmm...having fun?

Random dark cloud:

I suddenly felt "used". Like I was my W's "starter husband".

Don't know where the thought came from. Ouch!

Got it,

Starter husband...

the feeling I get periodically is that I was the husband she had to have kids with and who's job is not to provide her and kids with financial security (into perpetuity), while she has a fun and playful rest of life with someone else.

It sucks, I know.

Time to kill those thoughts. They are not real. They are just feeling sorry for ourselves.

Gone.

No More.

Enough.

You can do it.

Thanks Think

Angry right now. Don't know why.

...and the horse she and bff rode in on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMBZDwf9dok

cuz the fireweeds blooming and its all down hill from here, first it gets dark at night and then here comes -18. Thats why Im angry at least. Winters just around the corner.

Ive had a tough last few days too. Im not sure why. Sorry O'dog. I just wanted to stop by and check up on you, hope that tomorrows better!

Yeah, and maybe the rainy stuff over the last few days remind me of last year's ripoff summer that never happened. I can't think about winter right now either.

I'll be better tomorrow. A little rest might do the trick.

--

I talked a little with WomanFriend about anger (she would know) and got some good encouragement.

OD, Nothing wrong with feeling angry, it's a normal feeling for what you are experiencing. It's how you decompress that matters. I heard something interesting the other day - depression is anger turned inwards. So it is healthy and neccessary to let it out. There's a reason it's called venting.
Cheers
Coach

Thanks Coach. I have a tendency to turn inward. Working on it.

So what do I do with this thought?

What if I AM better off without her? I trying to figure out right now if I miss her or I just don't like the idea of that I was "rejected" or that I "failed".

Quote:

What if I AM better off without her?

It is your job to better off without her...that doesn't mean you can't be better off with her. You are choosing now to do things that make you better.

Does that makes sense?

I had that feeling a lot too. I was told to acknowledge it and let it go. You should get a punching bag, I highly recommend it.

I had that exact thought in fact, that I had failed. But you know what? She failed you. She was the one who couldnt keep it together. You have fought hard and long for this, so no matter what happens, you have made changes for yourself and learned a lot about yourself, all positive things, how could that ever be a failure?

True. She said she never wanted to work on it (and still doesn't). My changes are good for me.

Lunch with ReligiousFriend today. Not much to say about the sitch.

I think that sometimes its nice, especially in the beginning to have interactions that dont have anything to do with your sitch! Its sort of refreshing!

Good play weekend. Spent some time with kids. Interactions with W were pleasant. She even pet the dog (and she never did that).

Set kid weekend schedule for next two months. Ch13 redo in progress. We're doing lunch Friday.

I got a sudden icy chill that maybe she's going to have D paperwork there at lunch. Eeeek! If so then oh well, it was going to happen sometime.

Quote:

I got a sudden icy chill that maybe she's going to have D paperwork there at lunch. Eeeek! If so then oh well, it was going to happen sometime.

Just have a plan for dealing with it. Maybe just take the envelope and place it next to you and say I'll look this over later. Don't get baited. Then have a exit plan and a support network waiting to go have fun.
Do remember this old cartoon called "Batfink" ? He was a bat superhero and his battle cry was "Your bullets cannot harm me, my wings are like a shield of steel!" You can handle it.

Cheers

ps Hugo a Go-Go was Batfinks nemesis with Karate as his sidekick. Don't know how that memory came to the surface.

Thanks Coach,

I'm glad I had this thought before the lunch visit so I'm ready if it happens.

"I'll look at this later" is the right thing to do. Engaging a red-headed L who works in negotiations is asking for a thumping. I'll let my L take care of the business.

I don't remember BatFink but I'll use my wings of steel.

Thinking of you, O'Dog.

Stacy

How did it go today?

Lunch isn't till Friday.

Today was smooth and peaceful. I'm trying not to think about the whole D topic as much.

Just spent two hours at dentist w/ youngest. More $ scheduled next month. I was hoping to have a little extra this month after ch13 redo but it's all been swallowed up by dentists. Damn!

Lunch.

Got papers. I was glad I thought of the possibility that she would bring papers earlier this week so I was prepared. I stayed fairly neutral through the convo. We talked some about the agreement but I didn't want to get too much into details.

The paperwork is a 1st draft of a settlement agreement. She got help from outside atty to write it but it is mostly the same as our email back in April. The plan to keep legal expenses minimal is for me to get advice on her settlement agreement. Let her know changes and she will rewrite and submit with the idea to minimize atty to atty talk at $hundreds per hour. She'll file complaint, agreement, etc. all at once.

Some notable comments:

"I'm sorry you didn't want this but I just don't know what else to do."

"I know you talked about reconciliation but I'm not ready to do a whole bunch of psychotherapy." My response, "If you're not willing to then you're not willing to."

"Doesn't mean that we couldn't get remarried again. Couples do that all the time. But I'm afraid I've done too much damage already and I'm not sure why you'd want to take me back." (I didn't respond)

Other convo was kid details, Ch13, and her money woes. She said kids like spending time with me and that I come across as "the fun dad".

Maybe I was too neutral throughout convo but I don't know. I'm not sure what my position is on this whole thing anymore. I've done my work. I'm tired of fighting. I'm tired of getting my emotions yanked around. She would have to do work to come back.

--

When I was a kid I lived in a big US city and there was a CAN city 100 miles north nearly the same size. Both cities were active and thriving but I was always so surprised that we heard so little about that city. We heard so much more about smaller towns to the south. That border separated the two lives of those places so throughly.

And that's how I feel. We both have thriving lives but there's a big border between us and we both hear very little about each other anymore.

Hi, O,

I'm glad you were prepared for this, but even so, my heart goes out to you. Do something nice for yourself and don't give this too much power over you.

Dia

Hi O'dog,

She's making the right noises. Why don't you ask her to just go to the Retrouvaille weekend first before you go through with all of this? It's 2 days, and it's not psychoanalysis, not at all. It's a meditation on your marriage and your lives, your hopes and your dreams. After that you can make a more informed decision about what you want to do.

Hmmm...I'll think about how I might bring it up so it wouldn't sound like psych talk. There is not one offered close by at least this year so it would involve a trip out of state.

WomanFriend had kind words. I told her I wasn't too troubled by what happened because I knew it was on the way.

She told me not to feel guilty - I had done my work. I taken a hard look at the sitch and myself, improved many things, but through it all kept the good things. She hadn't.

She joked that she knows a lot of people and could hook me up with a sweet setup. heh heh... (maybe a little later)

--

I'd like to hear more about how a LBS can sometimes become a WA. Feels better when I don't care.

(Sounds like I'm working on getting myself banned around here).

Hey Dawg -- that convo has taken place on my thread and (memory weak) I think on @traveldane's as well. Can LBS become WAS?

My recollection is that the consensus answer is, "No." Walking Away is the start, if you will, of the DB process. What LBS does to cope, GAL, 180, move on, grow, improve, change -- none of that is Walking-Away. I prefer to think of it as Walking Towards.

You were willing to step up.

You were willing to take the hits and keep on taking them.

You were willing to take the responsibility and the burden.

You were willing to Do The Work.

The Other Walked-Away.

Now that you're Rolling Your Way, there's no "away" for you to walk to. The M is gone (at least as it was). So there's nothing for you to leave but the past.

Perhaps you're becoming a Walking-Towards. No way you're a Walking-Away.

Just my $0.02.

Finished my longest Tri of the season. Not my fastest ever, and man I'm sore right now, but fun and and least I finished.

Youngest was very sick yesterday. W texted me today to say they were at Dr. and she wasn't feeling great either. Dr said he's probably got the piggy but not sure about W. I wished them both well and called later to make sure things are OK. (Gee I forgot we we're sep'd there for a while).

Thanks SP.

Her comment, "...I just don't know what else to do." stuck with me.

1. Part of me is thinking, "What do you mean you don't know what else to do?" Oh so helpless. This whole thing has just been forced on you.

2. Another part of me is thinking, let it go. It doesn't make sense. WAW talk justifying nothing.

Anybody?

Yep, I hear that stuff too. I think 1 and 2 are valid, but focus on #2!

Met with L. Just a few issues but nothing too big. Looks like I can keep it simple and cheap on my side.

argghh...Short term money issue.

ugh...I feel horrible today. The Black Dog is snarling at me. I think it's a combination of physical activity (I need a rest day), working on a response to the Settlement Agreement, and money (will be better in about two weeks).

I just need rest.

___

I was thinking during the Tri that I've had a hellava past three years. A two-year bout of depression (now it's just dysthymia), followed by a bankruptcy, followed by a divorce. I did no athletic events last year. My race time was pokey slow but I was glad to just be finishing in spite of all of this.

W is grumbling about house equity value and how to pay out. I have a call into my L.

Teleconference with B atty. Talk with W about legal issues. Talk with L about house valuation. I'm fried. Enough for today.

B payment has been significantly reduced, modified plan refiled. It was bad enough with one household, but with two it was cutting down to the bone.

W seems cooperative on issue.

I saved us each hundreds per month and tens of thousands over the course of the repayment. Huge financial move. (Too bad we had to be separated to get it). Takin' care of business.

Had to fly all day then teach a class then fly back. Ughhh wiped out.

W stopped by yesterday right before I arrived home to kids and stayed about 30 min. She didn't say very much - kind of melancholy. I think she just missed the kids and the dog.

I think we're just about there on agreement. W sent:

"...I just got my atty's bill and so far $xxx for just the settlement agreement this far. I'm sorry, I just don't think we should leave it hanging."

Second or third time she's apologized and said we just can't leave things up in the air. Whatever. In the back of my mind I'm thinking just remember I tried and you didn't.

Didn't sleep well last night. Lots of stuff about the paperwork and the end of this sitch going round and round. Interesting because I didn't spend many of my awake weekend hours thinking about this stuff. I guess the thoughts had to come out somehow.

Random thoughts:

If I had to boil it down to one fatal event it would have been the argument mid-summer. Youngest asked "Dad, are you ever going to move back with mom?" I answered "Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?" Wife just lost it after this and accused me of giving the kids false hopes. W uninvited me to go with family on long-weekend vacation (in hindsight I'm glad I didn't go) and said she'd proceed with divorce paperwork.

When I mentioned this to P-doc at recent med check his attitude seemed to hint that comment was the worst possible thing I could have said.

I think her response after this argument really ended it for me. If I was holding on to any rope I dropped it after that.
__

Separation utterly killed any progress. I felt like I was doing well towards getting us to spend time together and talk but after the move-out, we spent one weekend together with kids, part of an afternoon at a movie, and that was it.

I feel the separation helped me in some ways. I am a lot calmer. I do a lot of fun things. I feel the time I spend with my kids is richer. But it's lonely at times and not what I wanted.
__

She's so intent to fast-track this thing to provide "clarity". She apologizes often. Like she has to justify this or something.

__

There are some indications that she is struggling (billable hours low, moody, and a few other stats).

__

Initially I thought we could continue to be friends or almost family-like after all I knew her for 18 years. However I can't do it right now (or ever?). I had incorrect attachments to that possibility and the best way I can handle it is to detach completely. A H/W relationship is not the same as a family-like relation. All that negative stuff (sep and D) seems to overshadow the other connections.

___

I let go of the rope shortly after move-out. Any relationship after that was up to her. I think she expected me to do something but I felt I'd done what I'd done and if she wanted anything else then it was up to her. If you want to be friends then be one. Otherwise I'm content to let you go on your happy way.

__

Reconcile? Well never say never but I feel I'm past that and I feel her comment when she delivered the paperwork ("You never know, couples get divorced then ending up remarrying each other all the time.") was just trying to deliver a nicety in the midst of bad news. Kinda like the cop saying, "Have a nice day" after he's written you a ticket. There's too much negative inertia. BFF is settled in for good. Paperwork in progress (maybe even signed this week?). Separate lives. Extended families seem to have bought into sitch. And she's pretty stubborn.

__

Whatever!

Email convo with WomanFriend. Told her I tried but W didn't buy. I'm taking my toys and going home. She replied:

"You put your heart into trying and you can't look back w/regret. This only gives you the chance for something better in your life! Damn exciting if you ask me!

"

---

When this is over (next week, next month, whenever) I'm going to do something crazy like get a tattoo or go bungee jumping. Just for me.

Hey OD,

Bungee jumping sounds like a great idea...I've been thinking along those same lines lately...that sometime in the near future I'm going to have to do something to mark the end of this phase - at least until the next transition take hold.

Reading your post before this most recent one, I felt like I was reading a summary of my own situation...our separation also just put an end to it...mostly because of me I think - since she doesn't talk about anything openly enough to make it clear what she wants - even the divorce.

Keeping taking care of yourself, my friend.

-Carlos.

Supposed to have documents ready by Monday. Haven't spoke much in the last week or two. W has been very bitchy about the whole thing.

W pointed out how good of a deal I was getting on the settlement. While she was getting the house, I was getting a big contribution to retirement funds. Whatever. It's supposed to be an even split. I don't want to get into it.

BFF is starting to become a go-between on kid matters and seems to be more of a mother than wife is (or was). I talk to her much more than W.

Like I said. Whatever.

I hate to say I told you so but I did.
You should never have moved out, you should have stayed and let her deal with finding a new place. You should have stood your ground, being nice to an obstinate spouse who wants to separate and live the "single" life never works.

The attitude has to be fine, live a single life, I don't mind if I do the same thing but since you're so hell bent on separating, you leave, find yourself another place, I like it here and I'm not going anywhere.

The bitchy attitude is part of the WAS personality. Getting everything they want gets boring after a while, regardless if people admit it or not, people want a challenge. Boredom sucks and I knew her best friend moving in wasn't going to be temporary, I think I mentioned that before too.

You need to start doing what's best for you.

And if you haven't heard from Gucci or Puppy on this (and you may have heard it from me), you need to start dating other women - no one is telling you to sleep with anyone or fall in love, all we're asking you to do is show that you respect yourself enough to not let someone disrespect you as much as your wife currently does.

You currently have no value in her eyes, if you did, she wouldn't have let you go, she knew she could have you at any time and that made you less desirable from her point of view.

It's time for O'Dog to start dating and showing the wife that he will "move on" faster than she will, when it becomes your decision instead of hers, the dynamic in your relationship will change and you will see a change in her perception of you.

Please don't tell me that you're against doing this on the grounds of your marriage - do what works otherwise expect more of the same in your situation.

Sometimes we don't see what is so clearly laid out in front of us because we're too close to the situation to fully grasp everything that is going on. I hope this 2x4 helped.

Yeah, I knew I would get an "I told you so". Have no problem with the dating thing. Currently not sure if even want to bust the divorce. In any event O'Dog won't isn't going to lift a finger to do anything about it.

Originally Posted By: robx

I hope this 2x4 helped.

You know I think it helped. I know I don't want to waste my time on this stuff anymore. I knew the risks, took 'em, and you were right. Thanks for making your point well after it needed to be made. Like I said earlier, whatever.

Orangedog is moving on.

It's not wasting time if you start charting a direction in your life that brings you to the place where you want to be.

It sucks when you think you're doing all these things so that your spouse will notice, shake their head a bit (or pull it out of their a$$) and rethink what they're ultimately doing to their marriage and you finally realize that they're stubborn and set in their ways and you aren't going to pull the rabbit out of your hat this way.

Detach, move on, start dating, reclaim even more confidence, discover yourself.

This is when you will gain value not just in her eyes but in your own which ultimately more important.

When you start to move on and on your own terms, she will see this and that's when she will be changing her mind and asking you to give it another shot.

The only pitfall with this that i've experienced is this,
when you detach so much that you actually move on with your life and the WAS notices this, it's often too late because by the time they get it, that it's now your decision to move on when all along it's been them that controlled the shots, you're not interested enough to consider them as worthy of you as a spouse.

Who knows what happens at this point, whatever does happen though, it will be on your terms and you will be calling the shots, and life will be much more enjoyable because of it.

Hey Orangedog, Im sorry that things have gotten to this point. But you seem like your coping well...?

I think that regardless of what happens with my H, or the D, I am in a better place because of DBing, the positive changes that I was encouraged to make have been good for me. I hope that you have come away with a similar feeling.

Did you see my blip in the ADN on the 13th? Its called please dont kiss the wildlife. Really, thats the title.

1. Still no paperwork. Everything's been approved but no word on the signing party I got a gift basket when I closed on the house. I expect at least as much from this event, dammit! It's a drag on me to mentally prepare for this then have to wait.

2. BFF has been supermom. Lately seen at the elementary school chumming around like she's one of the parents. W called me yesterday out of the blue and said that even she felt upstaged. While it's nice to have the help, I'm not sure about having a third parent.

3. Got torn up bad this week by "The Black Dog". Hard to work. Hard to concentrate. Hope those bites don't become infected. Was fine until this week - not thinking about sitch much. I just want this sh over so I can get back to my own show.

4. Been leaning hard on WomanFriend this week. Her best words this week were, "Keep being true to yourself."

5. Working on zen. Letting go. Living right now. Trying not to make sense out of things that don't make sense.

ReligiousFriend keeps asking me to go to his conservative church. I enjoy his insight and reflections but it's not something I want to do. In life outside this forum few know my practices and beliefs except maybe my kids (not sure W even knew). Sooner or later I need to come out...or not.

6. Latest distraction. Old classic motorcycle. Cheap but fun. Ride it this summer. Restore it this winter. This was my one 'pull money out of savings - do something crazy' thing allowed. My kids love mc s too and enjoy riding along down the quiet city streets.

7. Yes, I realize it's a perfect opportunity to read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

8. Bluerain. I looked up your article by title and I promise not to pick up cute cuddly otters. The kids and I got to meet Chance the fox at the AK Zoo so I can understand now how people think these animals could even be pets. Let me know if you're ever up here in A town.

I have a copy of Zen and the Art of MM with me by my desk right now...got it as a gift from a dear friend - and she knew just how timely it was. I hadn't read it since high school...long, long time ago - and I swear it's a completely different book now...read it as a child, now reading it as a father..."the child the father of the man."

Keep sitting.

-carlos.

Sign papers Monday afternoon.

Going to $ out ring. Don't want it around in any form.

OD, Make sure you have someone to hang out with afterward. Don't need the Black Dog to come pay you a visit. Have a plan for Monday, use your support network. You can handle it.
Strength and Honor
Coach

Got plans with people after work that day.

Lunch today with friend. "Dude, you tried." He just about choked on his food when I told him that after W gave me papers a few weeks ago she said maybe one day we could get married again. "...and you know what would have to change for that to happen?" "Everything." I said.

He thought the BFF sitch was too much. Asked if they were more than roommates (W insists no). Nonetheless she's way too involved. Helping OK. Mothering too much.

The Black Dog has been around all week - not going away. Had some ok times with kids and riding around on my 'new' bike this weekend. Can't concentrate. Not getting anything done at work or home. No energy.

Signed and notarized papers about half an hour ago. I'm not sure exactly when it's "official"; at time of signing, at filing (sometime this afternoon), or hearing date (probably October). Whatever. Call it. Time - 14:05:00 08.21.09

I'm gonna have some good thoughts for ya', brother. I'm sorry that things are this way for ya' right now.

Please, stay here on this board.

No regrets. You did your best. Just deal with it and stay busy. You have no reason to hang your head. Sorry buddy.

Cheers Mate

Quote:

is done.

O Dog, you're finally done. That is going to mean something very positive to you. Not today, but some day. That is a promise.

Please be with people you care about today...and know who you are.

Thanks all.

I am sending you positive vibes. You did your best, you *know* you did your best and it will be you that can sleep at night knowing all this.

Be strong, feel what you need to feel and most of all, despite the twinges of hurt, go live your life just as you want to!

I don't know what the rules are about posting links to items for sale so I'll just give you the text of the ad I posted on CL today.

"M's nugget wedding band - Must be destroyed

M's nugget wedding band. 14K of pure evil embossed with 23 natural gold nuggets and 3 small diamonds. Measures 7mm x 3mm thick at widest point. Makers mark on the inside says "NOC 14K". I don't know what that stands for but I'm sure it's something scary.

This ring must be destroyed in the fires of Mt. Doom lest the entire world will fall into everlasting darkness. The ring will give the bearer invisibility ("Did you say something honey?") but will take away all control including, "mastery over their powers and domination of the wills of the users" ("Who wears the pants around here now, Mister Man!" ).

Unfortunately I can't get the time off work to make the trek to the fiery volcano otherwise I would do it myself. But you can buy it from me for $--- and decide what to do with it. I just want it gone. Maybe you think it would make a great man's wedding ring ... but don't say I didn't warn you.

Ask for Smeagol"

My impression of BFF fell farther yesterday when W reported that her stbx H is near-suicidal.

After job loss and market collapse, BFF & H went from being double-income-no-kids with a huge house, timeshares, cars, toys, and trappings to bankruptcy, foreclosure, and repos. And she left him right in the middle of it to move up here and start over. Throw in her MLC and a fling and it makes for a pretty bad break.

I shouldn't concern myself with it, after all it's not my relationship or life, however BFF now lives with xW and has virtually taken over as mom. And her H is a good friend of mine.

What bugs me the most is the selfishness of it. She can bake all the cookies she wants but it doesn't change the fact that she has made a wreck of her former life, has my good friend thinking about taking a .45 caliber pill, she's running my xW's house, and she's being more of a parent than xW is. Even the kids joke that it's not mommy's house anymore; it's BFF's.

xW is always trying to defend BFF and talks about how great she is. She gets kids to brush teeth, she gets kids to do this, she gets kids to do that. LuckyG and a few others including myself predicted that after a while this sitch would end - there can only be one queen of the castle. However xW has sort of just stepped back and let her run the show.

I'm not saying she caused all the problems in our life or that she caused the divorce. There were plenty of other factors; many of them beginning with O'dog himself. But she's not a positive influence. She's a damn invasive weed.

Yes, O'dog is angry right now. And he's talking poorly of others. (Bad karma dude!) Looking for the correct response. I've been ignoring the sitch and concentrating on my own game (which has been hard enough) but I don't think that's the right thing to do. What's best for my kids?

What's best for your kids is for you to be the absolute best father that you can possibly be to them. No matter what. Some things are beyond our control and some things aren't. Focus on your kids right now. We need to focus our energy on things that we can control, and let go of trying to control other things that we can't. You're a triathelete, I believe. Swim, ride, and pound those stressors into the singularity whenever you're out there. You are, and will continue to be, a better father, a better O-dog, and a better partner as time goes by.

Thank you Antlers.

BFF sounds very invasive indeed - like she's trying to fill some kind of gap by proxy - or else prove something to someone...who knows...just an observation - though in the end, those observations just don't mean much I suppose...what matters most is what we do with the reality of our lives - not our perceptions of our lives...though I don't know if it's always possible to get through the perceptions enough to find the real kernel of reality. Perhaps that's just the beauty of living in the moment - of seizing each moment in its totality - so that when we smile with our children, living in the moment, we smile forever.

-Carlos.

Originally Posted By: healthydad

so that when we smile with our children, living in the moment, we smile forever.

And those are indeed my best times.

"What matters most is what we do with the reality of our lives." - healthydad

Thanks, man! That's good stuff.

So this weekend I had one of those kind of half-sleep half awake lucid things. It's called "Trying to make sense out of things that don't make sense."

I've used this line before but it really seems to be arriving again in the midst of these heavy discussions on SP's thread. As stated earlier O'dog is done and the paperwork is filed. But I continue to participate in these discussions for a few reasons.

- I want to understand what and why this happened. I still have feelings of hurt, anger, rejection, (happiness?). What's going on inside that grey matter of mine?

- It ain't over yet and never will be. Because we have kids it's not really the end of a relationship, just a troubled relationship forever bound by strings that cannot be cut. Yeah, she thought she'd get rid of me and all would be good. And I thought with less contact with her would feel better. But we can only go so far without abandoning little ones.

- Emotional support.

So something brought up in Zen discussion made absolutely no sense. I'm pondering this thing while doing housework moving the words back and forth and suddenly, Eureka!, the whole thing came unhinged. It wasn't supposed to make sense, only to be seen for the beauty of the words themselves. There were bits of understanding here and there but they were not knitted together in any particular string of meaning.

And that's when I let go of trying to understand the meaning or string of logic of W and D. I'm trying to make sense of something that has no sense to begin with. There are bits of understanding here and there but they are not knitted together in any particular string of meaning.

So while I struggle to understand why, who, how, what caused all this I have to let some of it go and realize not all of it will be understandable. I wish I had a 100% solid answer about what happened and why. But none exists. It's random. Not confused but not made in any particular order. It is a freedom to let go simply see what is in front of me.

Easier said than done.

I think -- and I fall into this trap but *regularly*, too -- that there is a delusion that says, If you understand HOW and WHY it happened, you have exerted some control over it. You have harmonized the past to the present by act of accurate intellectual and/or emotional insight, which can almost feel like expiation.

(Not that there's any percentage in going your merry way oblivious only to repeat the same pattern multiple times, either.)

But ultimately, any order we impose on the past is a story we're telling. Maybe pretty accurate, maybe less so. It's educational to reflect on how the meaning we impose on our own histories tends to grow and shift through time as we do.

Recognizing that is the first step toward letting go, maybe.

"You can't see what you can't see. Until you do."

One of the other things that really gets me is the unfairness of the situation. Yes, I know "life ain't fair" and "First noble truth: There is suffering". But I didn't do anything inherrently wrong or harmful.

Obviously I didn't do something well enough. But I didn't cheat, fight, abuse, abandon, overwork, and there were no drug or alcohol problems, etc.. The simple explanation; I got depressed and she got bored.

And when I look around I seeing it happen to so many others. Why is this so common? What is going on?

What is the message my children will learn? "One day she will get bored of you and move on. There's nothing you can do about it."

whatever.

Hell, yes, it's unfair. Noble truths don't really help when your sense of justice is screaming I DIDN'T DESERVE THIS!!!

But.

Under the circs, I can't think of anything better for you to teach/model for your kids than, "You can't control anyone else. But you CAN, ultimately, choose to thrive."

Quote:

Under the circs, I can't think of anything better for you to teach/model for your kids than, "You can't control anyone else. But you CAN, ultimately, choose to thrive."

Well said Kett.

Originally Posted By: Kettricken

there is a delusion that says, If you understand HOW and WHY it happened, you have exerted some control over it.

How true. It's a big trap for me too.

Originally Posted By: Kettricken

Under the circs, I can't think of anything better for you to teach/model for your kids than, "You can't control anyone else. But you CAN, ultimately, choose to thrive."

Thanks Kett.

Really bothered by so much stuff today and need to vent. Dammit I don't want to be a "co-parent". I don't want to read about "normalization". F' that - it's broken.

Odog,
After spending a week with my kids alone because we were off and W wasn't, I can say I agree so much with what you wrote. I don't want to see them half the time. I want all four of us to be together all the time. A few times during the week I looked at my boys at the aquarium and thought that this could be our future. Me and them together alone doing something fun. knowing that soon they would have to go home, a different home than the one I am going to. How the hell can I not tuck them in every night? How can I not have dinner with them every night? I grew up in a happy home with an intact loving family. How can I give them anything less? I also don't care about kids adjusting and all that crap. We are supposed to be a family. Period.

I really feel what you guys are saying here. This weekend I was with my girls at a museum and D2 had to have her diaper changed. I took her to the changing room and a man and his baby came in. I said, "sorry we will be just a minute." When we came out he said, "so did you draw the short straw with your wife like I did?" I said, "no-I am always on my own with them." THEN I felt really like a single parent. Why do I have to be? Because my wife wants to be with another man? My wife did not die in a car crash but I wished I could have told the guy that.

O'dog is really depressed. I don't understand - it was a fun weekend. I want to talk to Womanfriend but I feel like I've already leaned on her a little too heavily.

Maybe you just need time to grieve.

Hang in there, O'dog. You'll make it through this.

37,000 lurkers can't be wrong.

Felt really bad when I got home. Quick note to WomanFriend. Then I literally forced myself out the door on a run/walk with the woofy. Got the eye from a pretty along the way.

WomanFriend joked, "...it's been way too long. You need to pick up a hot chick at a bar - don't even ask her name." (She might be right about that).

Went for short motorcycle ride later on in evening.

---

Some of this moodiness is response to what's happening in life. Although I don't understand why it's happening now in particular. I kinda slacked off on the mood tracking but I'll pick it up where I left off.

I have to be careful visiting this board. While I need the support, I need to be careful not to rehash and ruminate.

I'm tired of the depression coming back again and again. I'm not sure why the BP II dx never stuck but every time this happens, there's a greater chance that's indeed what it is.

Originally Posted By: Kettricken

Under the circumstances, I can't think of anything better for you to teach/model for your kids than, "You can't control anyone else. But you CAN, ultimately, choose to thrive."

Wow! Good stuff!

Originally Posted By: orangedog

I have to be careful visiting this board. While I need the support, I need to be careful not to rehash and ruminate.

I hope you'll continue to be here O-dog. The support will do you good, and you'll be able to help others...which will also do you good. You DB'd like a mutha!

BTW - Coach had the mentality that 'it' wasn't over until the judge signed off on the divorce, and until then...he had a chance, but he remained very aware of the alternative!

Thanks Antlers.

I know 'it' isn't over till the judge signs off (hearing date requested but not scheduled yet - expect late Sept or early Oct) however, I've been doing nothing actively to bust it I don't expect anything to change. I don't talk to her about anything but kid arrangements. I live my life, she lives hers. At this point I'm not sure if I even would want to bust it. I did my work then dropped the rope. I've got to concentrate on me for a while.

Go away Black Dog!

Seriously, I don't know why I'm at work right now.

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Go away Black Dog!

Seriously, I don't know why I'm at work right now.

Because work is something that you NEED to focus on right now, along with your kids. Your job helps you to take better care of your kids, too!

Hey OD...
I feel like I'm much the same path as you lately...loads of sadness just hit me in bursts sometimes - and I spend a lot of time trying to find a way through it all.

This past Saturday - while I had S2 home with me, I was playing with him, holding him above me like a little plane...and he was loving it - laughing, giggling, so happy - and right then, while on the floor holding him up, I just started to weep...it was terrible...And I think it had a lot to do with some of the same feelings that trouble you - some of that same impulse to understand something that can't be understood - some of that same bitterness over having (for me, another) broken family.

I think you were on the right track, though, when you mentioned that you were just supposed to appreciate the beauty of the Zen words -not dig into the message...sometimes that's the hardest part of living in the present - just being there enough to appreciate the beauty - when I was holding my son, and he was laughing - I was happy in the present - it was when my mind slipped to not having S12 here, to having to split time with S2, that's when the flood of sadness came - and I think a lot of it had to do with a feeling of being helpless - and maybe a bit of fear...whatever the case, all of it pulled me out of that moment, when what I should have been hearing was the giggle of my baby boy, not the sorrows I anticipate.

You'll be okay.

-Carlos.

Carlos,
I had a similar experience last week. I was with my 2 boys at an aquarium. I had the week off with them, W didn't have off. I was watching them run around and call out to me "Daddy, daddy, look at this fish.. no no wait look at that one! Isn't it cool daddy?" And I kept thinking that this might be my future, only seeing my kids part time and then without their mother with us. I came close to crying about it, but I was in a public place. I held it in and just tried to enjoy the time we were having, and did.
Sometimes I want to call my W and beg her not to split us up if not for us then for the boys. I can't imagine not tucking them in every night.

Quote:

BTW - Coach had the mentality that 'it' wasn't over until the judge signed off on the divorce, and until then...he had a chance, but he remained very aware of the alternative!

Guys, it often isn't over even after it is signed.

One day at a time (trite as that sounds).

Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking

Quote:

BTW - Coach had the mentality that 'it' wasn't over until the judge signed off on the divorce, and until then...he had a chance, but he remained very aware of the alternative!

Guys, it often isn't over even after it is signed.

One day at a time (trite as that sounds).

That's what I hear!

I, too, have these waves of sadness that pour over me. Often, they seem to come out of nowhere... (for those of you who do not know me, I have been separated for over a year and am almost divorced).

Carlos, I agree that it is important to stay in the present...that is our ultimate salvation in all of this, to be sure.

I have realized something, though, about these waves sadness and anger...they are part of a bigger process. I am still grieving the loss of my marriage. Does not matter that I do not want to reconcile, there is still a loss and it is like a death. I have experienced the death of a very close loved one so it is funny to me that it has taken me so long to realize that this loss is so similar. In addition to the loss of the person (spouse), there is the loss of the plans made, the goals and dreams, the expectations (dangerous though they are, I think we as humans all manage to have them sometimes). We are left, often in what feels like a pile of rubble, trying to dig our way back out to some sunlight...and it takes time...and it hurts, like hell, along the way. That said...there is joy to be had, I think, even during the grieving process. It is okay to feel all the feelings, the good and the bad. I am learning that grieving does not require one to feel miserable to the exclusion of any good feelings.

Do not mean to hijack...just want to share my perspective. What I am doing about this grief is letting myself feel the feelings as they come...sitting with them, experiencing them...and then getting myself back to finding my way...finding the joy in a moment. The joy of laughter with a good friend, the pleasure I get in my hobbies...whatever it may be - Carlos, I guess it is finding joy in the present, right?

Veronica.

Saw xW at psy office joint visit for youngest. went Ok.

Email convo later about kid switcharoo this weekend and an invite to do something "family" together but she said she'd understand if I didn't want to. I said maybe.

Some continued convo about music instrument for oldest.

--

xW called and talked for a long time. There's trouble in paradise and things are strained with BFF. Among other things, xW seems to have some of the same concerns as I do.

It was good to talk.

Originally Posted By: orangedog

xW called and talked for a long time. There's trouble in paradise and things are strained with BFF. Among other things, xW seems to have some of the same concerns as I do.

It was good to talk.

and you thought it was paradise for your wife & bff ;-)

Confiding in you about problems she may be having with the bff can't be a bad thing, there is some trust there.

Yes, I'm surprised she shared so much. Anyway, I need to be a little cautious not to be pulled into the middle of something. I will listen and be supportive but I need to be remember to keep my focus on myself and my children and let this thing play through to whatever conclusion.

Had a few wild dreams last night and then The Black Dog was gone by morning. I remember waking up thinking I felt better than yesterday. Strange how this stuff works.

Originally Posted By: orangedog

I will listen and be supportive but I need to be remember to keep my focus on myself and my children and let this thing play through to whatever conclusion.

You da' man!

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Had a few wild dreams last night and then The Black Dog was gone by morning. I remember waking up thinking I felt better than yesterday. Strange how this stuff works.

It's time, my man! Time...it does wonders. So does persistence and determination. I'll say it again...You da' man, orangedog!

Decent evening. Picked up stringed instrument for oldest (love those CL deals). While she was at dance, youngest and I went for MC ride. First to McD, then to coast place to throw rocks. Perfect day. Ship wake threw waves on quiet beach. Large mt rarely visible showed today. Picked up oldest and we played around with stringed instrument - none of us know anything about it so we just made noises and laughed; dad pulled off a very sour-milk version of twinkle twinkle little star and while we joked about how daughter needs to climb upon the roof to complete the image.

W called again today to discuss kid plans and to say that she and BFF are in no-speaking land.

--
WomanFriend was near angry about it. "Don't you come to her rescue. She got herself into this... and if you're not careful this will all get turned around and blamed on you." I assured her I was staying out of the middle.

Fun time with kids but I was a little worn out by the time they left.

Zen master from Japan visited our sangha. Full Moon ceremony last night. Zazen and teisho this morning. Amazing.

Notes.

1. The alch consumption has crept up lately. I've felt stupid about it. Time to knock it off. Maybe entirely.

2. O'dog thinks about meeting others...but bars, eharmony, CL personals? O'dog thinketh not. O'dog might be by himself for a long time but would prefer to hit it off in a more genuine way.

I think you are right about bars, but if you are ready, I wouldn't be so hesitant about Match.com, etc. Think about it - in a normal day, how many NEW people do you meet? Now of those new people, how many are eligible women?

If you are ready, then the goal is to MEET new women. Your chances of meeting people who are compatible is higher on one of the match-up services than it is at the supermarket produce aisle.

And at a minimum, it can't hurt.

BFF is moving out at the end of this month. Reasons: struggle with xW, money troubles, and those noisy kids.

Thinker, you might be right. Besides, my supermarket produce pickup lines still need some work. (There's that one about melons but...uh...never mind). I think I really just want friendship. Nothin' heavy. Dating can seem so fakey and overcommitted. I just want to hang out and do casual things.

Originally Posted By: orangedog

I think I really just want friendship. Nothin' heavy. Dating can seem so fakey and overcommitted. I just want to hang out and do casual things.

Nothin' wrong with that attitude orangedog. Friends are a gift from God, and you can never have too many. You're right about it being "fakey and overcommitted". Hanging out and doing casual things is a good thing. Stay going strong and consistent...for you.

ps - did 75 miles on my bicycle this morning. Rode with a group of pretty fast riders...what a workout! I did 800mg of Motrin and a Michelob Ultra afterwards to initiate healing.

Mixed moods past few days. Whatever was working mid-summer isn't working now.

I'm too tired to write everything. Maybe tomorrow.

Apparently I'm getting drawn into xW's and BFF money issues. I thought I sold a motorcycle this spring to pay off a tax bill. And I thought that BFF was living at xW's house in exchange for watching kids. WTF!

I don't owe anybody anything.

Keep a weather eye on that black dog, my friend. Might not be a bad idea to journal so you can see where your mental state is trending. *Definitely* keep an eye on the sauce.

You can do it, skipper!!!

(Sorry, couldn't resist ... the board version of my favorite greeting card ever: a blue sky displays yellow balloons complete with smiley faces. Card opens to reveal message, "Feel better or I'll send you something even more disgusting than this".)

You ok, dawg?

Thanks Kett.

Doing fine this morning.

I was mood tracking earlier this year but I fell out of it this summer probably because I felt I didn't need it. Need to get back on it.

Those who know something about bipolar please kick in.

O'dog has been concerned lately that his Black Dog might be BPII or Cyclothymia because it comes back so often and has been around for so long (first episode age 15). It's something I've discussed with p-doc.

It would be natural right now to be suffering situational depression and I'll give myself that. And I fully agree with my Dysthymia dx. However for the last 5 to 10 years it seems I've been battling depression that comes and goes mostly without reason. Since age 30 I've been I've had times of just gut-churning anxiety (although less of that since spring). But then I get over it, feel good, wonder why I even thought I had a problem, then months or weeks later it comes back.

There are a few bulletproof BP dx signs I don't have. I can't point to any time in my life and say I was manic or hypomanic; feeling on top of the world, spending money, and doing things impulsively. My moods seem to range from slightly above baseline to moderately depressed. Nor do I know of family members dx'd with bipolar although now I recognize a long history of depression down one side of the family.

However recurrent depression is on the bipolar spectrum. Indeed it's right in the title of the grandaddy book on the subject; "Manic Depressive Illness: Bipolar Disorder and Recurrent Depression" Goodwin/Jameson. I just don't know where the lines are.

Anyone have a similar sitch? Recurrent depression? BPII? Cyclothymia? What can you tell me?

Could it also be?

- Cognition: O'dog just has bad management of his upstairs utilities and allows thoughts and emotions to get the best of him. More cognitive behavior therapy, mindfulness, and Zen would address this.

- Existential: O'dog is too concerned about what he's doing in his life and how he's measured up. Never feels good enough. Needs to get over it.

- Seasonal: O'dog is sensitive to seasonal changes in light/temps. And he's living in absolutely the worst place for it; far north latitude.

- Hypochondria

O'dog found this old link yesterday to Gottman Institute:

Marital researchers now can predict not only which couples will divorce but when they will split
9/11/2000

"Researchers studying the state of American marriages now can predict not only which couples will divorce but also when they will divorce..."

http://www.washington.edu/newsroom/news/2000archive/09-00archive/k091100a.html

O'dog's D was like the second type listed:

"...A typical midlife divorcing couple was portrayed by Kevin Spacey and Annette Bening in this year's Academy Award-winning film "American Beauty."

"These couples are alienated and avoidant. They are the people you see in a restaurant who are not talking to each other," he said. "They raise kids together, but there is not much going on with each other and they realize their marriage is empty. These couples stifle things and do not raise issues with their partner. Their marriages are a suppression of negative emotions and a lack of positive emotions. It is a very passive and distant relationship with no laughing, love or interest in each other. This style of suppression can cause intense loneliness that's almost like dying."

The end of this type of marriage often coincides with a midlife crisis when one partner realizes his or her marriage, life and/or job are empty and begins looking for something better..."

Has O'dog had his Vit. D levels checked ever?

Has O'dog noticed that regular exercise makes a difference?

Yes. Tested very low last year. Been taking 8000iu D3 per day Carlson D Drops.

Yes. Exercise helps. But if I overdo it, I'll feel worse the next day or two.

Brief convo w xW about kid details ended, "...oh, and when you get a chance tonihjt I would like to talk about that money stuff I emailed about."

Thinking to myself, 'I'm not excited about getting dragged into your probs.'

This thing has turned into quite the fireworks show. xW called me yesterday and was furious over an email she got from bff asking for her money now.�She had quite choice words for what bff could do with her request delivered with all the energy and enthusiasm of Dr. Rick Marshall telling Matt Lauer what he could do...(1:24)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DrQHARhJCY

Here's an excerpt from the email:

"... i know its a lot of cash (number) but at this point i have to have the money back now.��i don't know if you can ask your parents for�a loan and�have (O'dog) pay some�of it or pull it out of your retirement or his.�... i'm losing sleep worrying about�my money situation�and my parents are adamant they get paid back and (BFF's xH) wants the rest of the money to go to the irs now.� my blood pressure is through the roof and this is making me an emotional wreck.��and honestly, until i get my money back i'm going to resent every single penny of discretionary income you spend (like going to (city) or buying (daughter) clothes) when i'm living by the skin of my teeth right now and borrowing from my parents.� I'm not going to be able to move past all of this if i feel like that all the time and have my parents and (BFF's xH) hassling me every day about paying them back and getting the money from you.� i'm sorry but that is the truth..."

O'dog pull $ out of his retirement?!? Why don't you...

"i'm going to resent every single penny of discretionary income you spend (like going to (city) or buying (daughter) clothes)." Or spending money on food and water.

Seriously, BFF went too far with this incoherent babble. xW admitted she got herself into this. She's not sure yet what she's going to do (evict; have friends come over and move her stuff out while bff is gone for the weekend; or nothing). She didn't seem to be looking for a rescue and I offered nothing more than a listening ear. I'm just glad I'm not in the middle of it. I've got my house, car, dog, mc, and I'll just keep puttin' along. As Dorie says, "Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming..."

Quote:

I'm just glad I'm not in the middle of it.

Yep, not your problem.

Odog...

Just wanted you to know I am starting from the beginning so I will get back to the question you posted to me as soon as I can get a grasp on your sitch

Thanks.

Invite from xw to go to w kids to traveling broadway show next week

Last night had intense dreams in which I was very sad about xW dating someone. Oh that unconcicous mind is a animal of it's own.

Just had kid switchoff. Very mellow and friendly. Seems like making arrangements for entire next weekend as family. Motocross event and a broadway show.

Maybe orangedog isn't done!

Maybe. O'dog is trying to keep an empty mind.

Got a package in the mail today. Yay!

Got a letter from the court. Divorce hearing on the 25th. Boo!

Quote:

Last night had intense dreams in which I was very sad about xW dating someone. Oh that unconcicous mind is a animal of it's own.

Yep, no matter what happens by day, by night, my mind indulges in the worst...

You're doing great. You keep going straight through...

More intense dreams and more of the same subject matter. I wake up exhausted. I guess it doesn't help that I forgot meds two days in a row and I feel like a space cadet.

Reading Phelps (psycheducation.org) "Why Am I Still Depressed? Recognizing and Managing the Ups and Downs of Bipolar II and Soft Bipolar Disorder" trying to figure out if it fits me.

Former neighbor was by my place on kid matters. While kids were bouncing around she talked about visit w/ xW last night. It was the first she'd heard about the meltdown with BFF and she was surprised and a little shocked how sour things had turned. She said xW was very emotional about everything going on (BFF, Div, O'Dog, $) and she'd never seen her like that.

Youngest outside playing with the woofie fall down go boom. Oldest thinks it would be a great idea to call mama with her new cellaphone and make him feel better.

Later, O'dog then gets an earful from xW about how he's not giving the kids enough affection otherwise they wouldn't ask for her.

just....go away or something. I don't want to hear it.

Quote:

Later, O'dog then gets an earful from xW about how he's not giving the kids enough affection otherwise they wouldn't ask for her.

Want to stop hearing it? Then set a boundary. She is mind reading for the kids. Call her on it.

Set a border indeed! It bugged me to hear her talk about what I was doing wrong as a dad and what I should be doing. Meanwhile she was the one who started the sep and D so she would have to deal with me. Can't have it both ways.

I need a plan for dealing with the Big Questions otherwise they will continue to bother me.

1. Work: Is this the right place? Am I doing the right thing?

2. Location: I enjoy this place in most respects. It's easy. Pays well. No big city problems. Great summers. But I HATE THE WINTERS. I just can't hack the darkness and cold anymore. But what am I supposed to do? Move to Kona and leave my kids behind?

I don't have to do anything yet. In fact I would prefer not to do anything for 6 months or so. But I need a way to think through it. Ideas?

band-aid fix: get a few of those SAD lights and take St. John's Wort and/or 5-HTP and Vit D2 (not D3) through the winter.

Thanks.

Thanks Dia,

1. Got a small SAD light but maybe I need something bigger - like a streetlight turned on it's side.

2. Haven't tried St.Johns Wort yet because not sure how it will interact with AD Rx (Cymbalta). Might try 5-HTP.

3. Tested last year for Vitamin D and I was low (as is most everyone up here). Since then taken 8000iu Vitamin D2 daily (Carlson D-Drops).

4. Planning for vacation on Big Island in March. That will provide some sun and some fun.

O'dog, do you get outside in the winter? I have found that playing in the snow helps me not hate it as much! And I started tanning in the winter, I know, I know, but you can even wear sunscreen! Its just nice to be warm and have those lights glowing on you for a few minutes.

People with snow machines (I refuse to call them sleds) seem like they cant wait for it to snow!

I get out and train some in the snow but need to do more. xc skiing, downhill moguls, running.

Yeah, I'm going to try the tanning thing this winter. There's a place just a block away.

I've done a little snowmachining but don't have my own. I've already seen a sledhead or two driving around with machine in the back of the truck. There's not even dust on the hills yet. Now that's looking forward to winter!

Early day. Took kids on a family meetup.com thing - hike up small hill then visit to a farm. Lotsa fun and few squabbles.

Later. Supercross w/ xW and kids in the local sports place (kinda small as arena was built for hockey & basketball but it worked). Lotsa fun and few squabbles. Youngest was just aaaampped. Mood seemed fine w/ xW with an occasional inside joke here and there. Not bad for first "family" event in a long time.

Tomorrow. zen, then something dangerous and/or exhausting (mt bike? motorcycle?), then broadway show with w xW and kids.

Sounds like a good day! Haven't read all your old posts but you say you suspect vitamin deficiency is affecting you? Have you already been checked for soy, corn, wheat/gluten, milk, egg sensitivities?
For what it's worth: I found that I was highly sensitive to one of those and cutting it out of my diet eliminated my years of depression. (This was a surprise side-effect because depression runs in my family and I used to think there was nothing I could do about it.) However even after years on the new diet, I still wasn't getting my energy back - not depressed but tired all the time. Store Vitamins were not helping until I finally broke down a few weeks ago and bought some expensive special vitamins (had to mail-order them) that I used to take when I was younger. I am starting to finally get my energy back... I really must have been so deficient in vitamins for ages! No wonder H got frustrated with me.

O'Dog, you sound like you're doing good right now. Keep it up. Stay consistent in your words and actions, and demonstrate change. Strive to be strong, powerful, confident, secure, and compassionate.

buttercup - Haven't been checked for food sensitivities but I should look into it.

Antlers - thanks. just keepin on.

You're gettin' it done. Keep on "keepin on".

Just got back. Kind of a long time.

She called asked if we should get din before show. Picked up Girlfren'. Went to italian place. Table for five in the noisy with kids section please.

Walked around a bit.

Show was good. We talked a little before the start out of earshot of youngers. School choice will be an issue next year for oldest D. BFF thing sounds like it will soon be over.

Felt kinda neutral during the whole thing. Pleasant but not lampshade-wearing off-the-wall.

O'dog would write more but tired.

I need to be watchful that she isn't trying to keep tabs on me or somehow call the shots in Act II. Just a slight O'dog suspicion but one I need to keep in mind.

O'dog is going to start posting in "Surviving the Big D". More appropriate to my sitch.

O'dog...

Didn't want you to think I forgot about you

It took me about 1/2 way through all your posts to realize you were the one being treated and not her...

I do see signs of depression and I see that you suffer the same fate as me - It comes and goes...

I also see you do the same thing I do and forget your meds - Not a good thing however I am not here to reprimand you...

You are a grown man and you know in order to keep yourself stable, you have to pop that pill everyday...

I abhor taking the meds but I know what happens if I don't take them.

Walking/running/getting fresh air will help tremendously as well...

Not stressing on what she may be doing/seeing/thinking etc...Will also help you...

My Dr. tells me the mind can only take so much before it will shut down on its own - A defense mechanism if you will...

In order to prevent that from happening, you have to step in and take over...

It isn't easy, I have been dealing with this for 21 years and some days are better then others...

Bi-polar isn't fun to live with, depression isn't fun to live with, however we can live life to the fullest as long as we don't let our lives be defined by that.

For the longest time I allowed it to define me and now I don't...

It may be a part of me however it isn't all me...

I am not sure how long you have been treated or if this is something new for you however you can make it through...

Don't let it rule your life, don't let it define who you are, don't allow it to take over...

Take your meds and if they aren't working the way you feel they should, see your Dr. - It took me 8 different kinds of meds before we found a "cocktail" that worked for me...

Get some fresh air every day, get good sleep - at least 8 hours if possible, avoid alcohol/drugs...

Talk/journal - Don't keep it all in...
I post here as well as a blog I have/I counsel with my Pastor as well as my shrink...

I try to walk every night after work and I know when I am getting pushed to that point so if I feel it coming, I remove myself from the situation...

You know your body/your mind and you know when you have had enough...

When you are at that point, turn around and walk...

Don't allow anyone to push you past the point of no return...

I don't want to have to visit you in a nuthouse

Please let me know if you have any questions at all and I apologize this is so long.

(((Hugs)))

Thanks Serenity.

I've always underestimated how much self care is involved - sleep, vitamins, exercise, no alcohol. It doesn't seem to take much to upset that unsteady equilibrium.

"My Dr. tells me the mind can only take so much before it will shut down on its own - A defense mechanism if you will..." This makes a lot of sense. I've been to the point where things get so compounded and worried that I really can't function anymore and my mood crashes. I never thought of what's happening in this light but now it will be enormously helpful to know what's going on.

Distancing myself from She helps. Sometimes it seems O'dog doesn't care but that's not the case. O'dog is just taking care of himself.

I'm going to keep working with dr. This depression just comes and goes and I'm just not 100%.

O'dog...

You hit the nail on the head with one sentence - "It doesn't seem to take much to upset that unsteady equilibrium."

Good you recognize that...

Sometimes it takes people many years to see it and then accept it...

"I've been to the point where things get so compounded and worried that I really can't function anymore and my mood crashes. I never thought of what's happening in this light but now it will be enormously helpful to know what's going on."

This I could have written myself...

I had to face the one thing I had been running from my whole life and no-one could force me to face it...
NO amount of pointing it out to me would have helped...
Just like our WAS, it is something they have to come to on their own but do know this -
No matter what, you will be just fine...

Keep seeing your Dr.
Keep taking your meds.
Find something to help you refocus when you feel the pressure building up.
Let O'dog define the depression - Don't let the depression define O'dog.

You know where I am if you want to talk

Run yesterday (took lots of effort) followed by a motorcycle ride helped chase The Black Dog away for awhile. Zen this morning. Partially cloudy with a chance of dog bite.

Haven't heard from WomanFriend in a while.

Saw Friend at kid drop-off this morning. Talked for a while.

There's been this kinda open invite to join his biz. He likes and needs my dog tricks and I like his style. We are going to talk more about getting in because there's nowhere left to move in current organization. They are nice people otherwise wouldn't have stayed for so long but O'dog is a tired dog and getting burned out.

O'dog credit rating is about zippo after the ch13 so I don't know where the $ would come from to buy in or how that would work. There's always retirement money but that's very risky...hmmm...Will find a good accountant before I do anything.

No, O'dog! Not the moms at the elementary school. Waaaay to complicated.

Text from the She said "Great pics of (d). Friend me on FB so you can see them or we can connect later (smiley face)."

Hmmmm...I hope it's not a dog trap.

A bunch of texts and a phone call or two from the She.

Hmmm...

Quote:

Friend me on FB so you can see them or we can connect later (smiley face)."

"Looking forward to seeing them. Hey -- can you just e-mail them to me?"

Quote:

A bunch of texts and a phone call or two from the She.

Hmmmm. It's quiet. Too quiet. What's that Dawg up to? Better check in for his daily f*ckaround....

More texts. More friendiness from the She.

Wondering if she isn't really lonely. She used to text with BFF dozens of times an hour. Now they aren't speaking.

O'dog spent evening talking with the neighbors and a few others while kids ran wild.

O'dog is doing good, especially under the circumstances.

The She and D were out of town for a few days and just got back today. BFF moved out stuff while they were gone so it was the first time any of them had seen house after the big out.

I had to drop a kid off over there and bring some other stuff over so I got to view the scene. The kids were amused at the empty spaces. "Listen Duhddy. It echoes." The She seemed somewhat overwhelmed - taking stock of what was left and think through the "what do I do next". A bunch of furniture gone. No tv or audio stuff (it's all in the O'doghouse). Even snacking was difficult as She realized that there were some holes in the kitchen equipe.

Interesting times. Div hearing in two days.

In his doghouse.
Warm dogbed.
Dreaming.

What?
One watchful eye.
No need to stir.
Asleep again.

Specific advice for the O'dog at the div hearing tomorrow?

Planning to just stay quiet and cool.

That's it. Maintain your coolness. But also be strong, powerful, secure, confident, and compassionate.

You're "already divorced", so there is no way this can possibly hurt.

Just got a call from the She. "My dad will be in town and wants to take family to an early dinner. So if you want to join us ...but we've got the hearing tomorrow so that's ok if you don't. D will at least want to go."

I just said something like send an email about it tomorrow . I'm on Rollerblades right now and can't do calendar things. (Really, I was).

How am I supposed to respond to that?!? I don't get her.

Aw c'mon now!

Someone in the gallery has to find this just a little unbelievable.

How to respond:

"Considering the situation. I have decided to ________________."

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Aw c'mon now!

Someone in the gallery has to find this just a little unbelievable.

it is unbelievable, it sucks bro, it really does but I will give you this, you're handling it like a champ

Originally Posted By: Coach

How to respond:

"Considering the situation. I have decided to ________________."

come for a free dinner and enjoy it.

How about:

"I'm sorry, but unfortunately I already have other plans. Can I take a raincheck?"

Thanks for the words. Polite decline (although I'm tempted by free food).

Well that is that.

Short hearing. Nothing major brought up. Business-like mood. Judge signed papers and O'dog walked out with a certified copy of the divorce decree.

RIP
06/14/94 to 09/30/09

--

The She said she'd pick up kids for din. I invited too, or "You can use it for your <airquotes> Self time </airquotes>. It's a sunny day. The woofy and I will go for a long run.

I'm Sorry OD

I'm sorry man. You are a good man. Bad things happen to good people. A friend at work gave me a card that said 'when God closes a door, he also opens a window.' I hope your long run does you some good...lots of fresh endorphins to flush and bathe your gray matter.

(((O'dog)))

Can't have been an easy day.

Thanks Thinker and Antlers.

Thank God for dogs and trails. You dealt with the adversity like a warrior, no regrets.

Strength and Honor

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Well that is that.

RIP
06/14/94 to 09/30/09

--

10.1.9 ~~~ New life begins.

Cheers.
Greek

Thanks Coach, Greek, Kett, Robx, and anyone else not specifically mentioned.

Spent a little time yesterday with some friends then MC ride with daughter. Received a book as a gift from an understanding coworker (Zen author).

O'dog was cool as a cucumber yesterday but is feeling some tinges of "not-doneness" and sadness today.

There's going to be some processing.

The Black Dog is here again.

Black Dog comes; Black Dog goes.

Hang in there, my friend.

Doing a little better today.

Good. I hope the good days are more and more.

Hey odog, just wanted to pop in to offer support, as I have been following your sitch.

I hope you are doing well today, and will continue to do better and better!

Thanks all.

I was thinking this morning this Black Dog has a good reason for hanging around with recent Div paperwork finalized and some bigger questions I've been facing. Nonetheless I need to be careful he doesn't stay too long.

Dia,

In response to your post on A&K's thread here is my current self-care regimen:

- 8,000iu/day D3 in the form of Carlson D-Drops
- 4000mg Fish Oil
- MultVit
- Exercise 3-4 days a week (will bump it up in Dec.)
- SAD light 30min/day (just started for Fall)
- Sleep
- No alcohol (O'dog is working on becoming a permanent non-drinker. So far so good. Some social challenges but I don't really miss it).

I'll try the B vits you mentioned. Probably shouldn't try the St John's Wort or 5-HTP because I take Cymbalta (fourth AD I've tried. Kinda' works.)

Have a routine visit to Pdoc scheduled in early Nov. I'll let him take a look at my mood charts and discuss events.

Looks good!

Re: SAD - I get it sometimes and I live in freakin' Cali.

My sis tried just about everything in the AD department and Welbutrin was the only one that really worked for her.

For the B-12, the sublingual ones dissolve under your tongue. Trader Joe's will have them, if they're near you.

Hang in there.

SAD in Cali? I lived in the Pacfic NW and it was tough enough there. At my current location 61' north it's reeeeaaally bad. On the flip side, in June I'm out doing runs and rides until way late (10, 11, 12p...)

Wellbutrin made me too anxious. A brief time at a higher dosage caused all sorts of probs. Different strokes for different folks.

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Thanks all.

I was thinking this morning this Black Dog has a good reason for hanging around with recent Div paperwork finalized and some bigger questions I've been facing. Nonetheless I need to be careful he doesn't stay too long.

Man, I wanna thank you for that quote that you sent me. That, and Coach's Stockdale Principle are sorta my mantra right now. The divorce is gonna be costly...especially financially, but also big time emotionally and mentally.

You are a good man. So am I, now, but I messed up badly over the years and now I'm suffering because of it. Take care of yourself...always.

Thanks.

You will do OK.

The She is poking at the dog. Concerned the kids are bored at his house.

You can read the post at Surviving the D.

Just dropped the kids off. The She was nice. Traded me a set of silverware to help deal with plugs on her new TV. Didn't bring up the 'kids are bored' issue but I was ready to deal with it.

A few things rattling through the dog brain:

1. Budget: I'm not saving enough (outside of retirement). I'm running close to the line each month and wondering if I need to consider a cheaper place...hmmm. That and groceries are my only big areas to cut back (no cable, no landline, used-paid-off car, no major purchases lately except used motorcycle, etc.) I've always hated dealing with money. I'm going to watch the next few months carefully.

(more later)

2. Relocation: Why do I dream about being somewhere else when I could never leave my pups? How do I work out this internal struggle?

3. Why am I here (on the board that is)? : This whole thing is like recovering from a major injury and now the O'dog has to learn how to run again. I'm trying to see what happened in the past (not necessarily to make sense of it because it won't make sense). The work I'm doing now is a little like physical therapy; strengthen, relearn, recover. And like PT, sometimes it's hard and it hurts. There will be some permanent scars and maybe loss of mobility.

O'dog says sorry to Prof. Smiley for dozing off during one or two of his lectures on "Marital Theory and Development in the Post...something or another...Era". Full recognition is given here that Smiley has his own work to do and this is part of it.

O'dog doesn't want to spend too much time mulling his own past but needs to recognize that unless he wants to repeat it then some reflection is necessary.

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Why am I here (on the board that is)? : This whole thing is like recovering from a major injury and now the O'dog has to learn how to run again. I'm trying to see what happened in the past (not necessarily to make sense of it because it won't make sense). The work I'm doing now is a little like physical therapy; strengthen, relearn, recover. And like PT, sometimes it's hard and it hurts. There will be some permanent scars and maybe loss of mobility.

I think it does you good to be here O'dog...even now. Lots of understanding and support here. I think it does others good for you to be here too...I know it does me good for you to be here. Your analogy is spot on BTW.

4. No more beer O'dog? Why not?: Trying to figure this one out myself. There really wasn't a problem. I'm guess I'm just done with it. Besides it's not a good mix with my depression, sports, or my practices.

The O'dog is trying to working on reconciling this into his social life. I don't want to be the wet blanket so I haven't shared with anyone outside here - if I go out I just order Cokes. This article kinda sums it up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2006/dec/12/healthandwellbeing.health

Thanks Antlers.

Grrr...here comes that Black Dog again.

Get out of my yard you mangy mutt!

O'D,
I've been lurking and following along both here and on Detachment. I feel your anguish. I'm just about done myself.
Stay strong.

Thanks Gardner.

---

A bonus fall day with good weather made for a decent 45 mile therapy session on the motorcycle.

The O'dog doesn't feel good today.

--

I'm tired of coasting in on fumes at the end of each pay period. Either need to find a cheaper place to live or a different job. While this place doesn't inspire me much and there's no opportunity to buy-in, I hate to say at least I'm here. I feel like I'm limping along and not making good hours. As soon as I start feeling better I need to get out.

I feel like Truman Burbank in "The Truman Show". Just wish I could get out of "here". Whatever "here" is.

Who (or what) is Christof in my story and why is he tormenting me?

Pdoc isn't available till nov 2nd. F!!!!

Hang in there O'dog. Everyone says it gets better and we gotta believe it. Persistence and determination...and time.

Couldn't handle work any more so went home early and curled up with the woofie. Now with kids so I have to be awake.

I'll do some budgeting this week and figure out what's going on. Dia's post on thankfulness and examples such as "No more running out of gas before the child support check arrives" really hit home.

- I've never had to budget for myself in one house with two kids three days a week. I got close but failed to account for doctors, dentists, winter coats, etc.

- Cake Money this quarter I was planning on didn't happen. One freelance project fell thru after I insisted on cash instead of trade (imagine that!). Company lost money this half so no sharing paid out to anyone - first time for that. F!!!

- Big Island trip in March to do a triathlon with local club? Uh..not sure anymore. Money and upcoming foot surgery are two strikes against that one. I find out about surgery (if, when, what) this Friday.

Today was better.

Had a brief but nice email exchange with the she.

Later, saw the she for a kid thing. It was a happy thing but when it was done I felt very sad.

The O'dog is going to get his toe fixed (surgery) end of this month.

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Today was better.

Had a brief but nice email exchange with the she.

Later, saw the she for a kid thing. It was a happy thing but when it was done I felt very sad.

Why sad?
C'mon bro, details, it's ok.

This might sound cheesy but the email exchange was about the was about the kid in the balloon. I for the most part don't email unless it's about a business matter but for some reason I sent one off, "Have you seen this?" She was watching cnn at a lunch place in another city on biz. So we exchanged a few back and forth and really felt sad and frightened for the small child (who wasn't) in the balloon. We have a child the same age.

Later that evening the youngest had a play date with the neighbors in the former neighborhood. The She was still in the other city. I visited with them for a half hour or so and on the way out the youngest said, "I want to see mama." "I don't think she's there" I replied, but there was a light on so he rang the bell anyway.

She had just got in. He bounced around on the front porch for a while. We made some small talk. She was wearing a favorite dress...

I think it was just sadness about old times. The house, the kid, the wife. etc.

Hey O'dog,

I know what you mean about old times, but I think the only purpose the past serves is to help us learn and make the present and the future more fruitful. Other than that, leave it alone.

I hope you're doin' OK. You've gone through all the proceedings that I'm just getting started on...gonna take months.

Hey, there, O'dog,

Let me know if you need any tips for saving money/budgeting. They're kinda boring, but they work.

Oh, and it was a margarita on the rocks, but a Pina Colada works in a pinch.

Thanks Dia.

I'm drinking Manhattans. You know, for your file. Extra cherries.

My 2 cents ... Naturally, one doesn't wish to *wallow*, but neither do I think you need beat yourself up at all or feel "less than" for simple regret. You had some visuals and an interaction that put you in mind of times that were good, in your estimation. Y'know, welcome to humanity .... (wry grin). I see no rational percentage in trying to convince yourself out of such feelings. Let them be clouds, KWIM?

Antlers,

Your proceedings sound a little more involved than what we went thru. Our D ended up being more like a mediation with two attys on the side for guidance and document prep.

You'll do fine.

Clouds. Makes sense.

Extra cherries in the Manhattan for the lady.

--

I let the She know about the schedule and I got this in return:

"If you need any help, let me know....esp day of surgery, etc.
We'll have to juggle around kid schedule.

I'm here for you!"

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Antlers,

Your proceedings sound a little more involved than what we went thru. Our D ended up being more like a mediation with two attys on the side for guidance and document prep.

You'll do fine.

I know I'll survive, just dealing with a lot of pain and disappointment, in addition to all the legal proceedings that are in motion. I know you can relate to it.

Originally Posted By: antlers

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Antlers,

Your proceedings sound a little more involved than what we went thru. Our D ended up being more like a mediation with two attys on the side for guidance and document prep.

You'll do fine.

I know I'll survive, just dealing with a lot of pain and disappointment, in addition to all the legal proceedings that are in motion. I know you can relate to it.

I'm exactly there right now, myself a la mediator meetings. We can all relate.

And we will all do fine.
We will all be fine, again, too.

Hang in there. Sometimes all you can do, all you can summon up from your over-depleted reserves is: endure.

Thanks Gardener.

I wish I knew what the cure for rejection is?

Originally Posted By: antlers

I wish I knew what the cure for rejection is?

Me too.
Bottom line of how I ultimately feel about all this: rejected and discarded.

And after months of (and still) cycling through the whole spectrum of emotions on this, I now more and more find myself - disappointed. Just deeply disappointed in her.

The cure for rejection is an unshakeable *interior* belief in your own self-worth.

Originally Posted By: Gardener

Originally Posted By: antlers

I wish I knew what the cure for rejection is?

Me too.
Bottom line of how I ultimately feel about all this: rejected and discarded.

And after months of (and still) cycling through the whole spectrum of emotions on this, I now more and more find myself - disappointed. Just deeply disappointed in her.

I feel the same way Gardener! It's like a death of my hopes and dreams and what I thought my future was going to be.

Originally Posted By: Dia

The cure for rejection is an unshakeable *interior* belief in your own self-worth.

I believe that Dia, I really do! But how do you get that?

Self-worth takes a big hit in situations like these, especially if you're a LBS!

Getting it *is* a little difficult, and I've been in the LBS position.

1) Disconnect yourself from your W's alleged evaluation of you. You feel rejected because SHE rejected you. You feel discarded because you think SHE discarded you. Stop that!

2) If you have C, ask your C very directly to help you with this. I spent a year and a half in weekly therapy. Do the work.

3) Mind your health and appearance, and GAL. These things really help.

4) Seek out the good in yourself and revel in it. Examine it. Appreciate it. Claim it and own it.

Originally Posted By: Dia

Getting it *is* a little difficult, and I've been in the LBS position.

1) Disconnect yourself from your W's alleged evaluation of you. You feel rejected because SHE rejected you. You feel discarded because you think SHE discarded you. Stop that!

2) If you have C, ask your C very directly to help you with this. I spent a year and a half in weekly therapy. Do the work.

3) Mind your health and appearance, and GAL. These things really help.

4) Seek out the good in yourself and revel in it. Examine it. Appreciate it. Claim it and own it.

1) Well, she 'did' reject me and she 'did' discard me! I'm trying to get my head around what you're saying here...but she 'did', in fact, reject and discard me. How do I disconnect myself from that?

2) I have gone to counseling and started after she made the decision to leave. It helped me in many ways. And I've done good for months by getting stronger mentally and physically, and learning to think about things differently...but her decision to divorce me pummeled me, and the finality of this situation is really hitting me hard.

3) I do. I'm in nearly the best shape of my life because of the things I've done since she left. I've become an endurance cyclist...lots of miles! I've lost a bunch of weight. I wear nicer clothes and always look more presentable nowadays. I spend more time with friends, and have met many people through cycling too. I always have the kids on my days off though.

4) I believe I have a lot of good in me. And I believe that I'm worthy of value, love, and respect. I just wanted it to continue to be from her...she was a support system that I came to believe in...in a good way. And I miss it. And I'm sad that it's gone.

1) So? What if it wasn't about you? What if it was about *her*? What I mean by this one is that you're allowing HER valuation of you to be the yardstick for YOUR evaluation of you. F that! Your self worth is completely independent and unrelated to her or what she thinks!

2) I hear in this that you're ot going now. Is that correct?

3) GOOD!

4) Missing it and being sad are fine. Very understandable. Look at these two statements:

a) I believe I have a lot of good in me.

b) I am a good person.

Which one is stronger?

Here are some statements about myself.

I'm a great cook.

I'm awesome in bed.

I'm kind, compassionate and caring.

I'm smart.

I'm a good mother.

I have pretty eyes, nice lips and what you fellas refer to as 'a nice rack.'

Knowing those things and being able to state them firmly isn't pride or arrogance; it's self esteem. So many times we belittle our own accomplishments. We pass off a great job we did as "Oh, I had help. It wasn't that that great. I just did what I had to." and so on.

One of the things my C did was to slow me down and pretty much *make* me examine my own strengths and accomplishments. Then we looked at FOO and childhood stuff. For instance, in elementary school, I quickly learned to turn my papers face down on my desk to hide my near-perfect grades so as to avoid torment at the hands of my peers. Teachers even encouraged me to do it 'so other people wouldn't feel bad.' Sounds reasonable, right?

My C: So you learned to be ashamed of your own success, and to suborn your own needs for the weaknesses of others?

Crap! She's right! When I'm successful, I do (used to) feel embarrassed, like hiding or deflecting attention. And yeah, it's not my fault if other people feel bad, and it's not my job to make them feel better. It's not like I was waving the paper around and bragging.

<shrug>

It's what worked for me. I resisted at first but wow, it felt so much BETTER to follow her advice. And hate to say it, but look at me now. People tell me all the time that I sound strong and confident. Good! Good for me. I earned it. And there's a success I'm not ashamed of.

1) I definately am allowing 'her' valuation of me to be the yardstick for 'my' valuation of myself. It is F'd up! My self-worth should be completely unrelated to her in any way whatsoever. Isn't self-worth what one is 'worth' to oneSELF?

2) I'm not going anymore. I got so strong, mentally and physically, over the months, that I felt OK about not going anymore. And I continued to do very good in the months since then...then, she told me on Oct. 1 that she was divorcing me.

3) Agreed...good!

4) 'I am a good person' is a stronger statement.

Incidentally, I'm a good cook too; I'm good in bed too; now, after doing 'the work' I'm also kind, compassionate, and caring; I'm smart; and I'm a good father; I have pretty eyes too, and nice teeth, and now I have a good build.

We do sometimes tend to focus more on our weaknesses/negative things about us than we do on our strengths/positive things about us.

Seems like the main thing I need to work on right now is not allowing HER valuation of me to be the yardstick for MY valuation of myself. How I feel about myself should be completely unrelated to her in any way whatsoever. I gotta get the right mindset. I want to be so detatched!

Dia & Antlers, I benefited greatly from following along on this recent back & forth of yours.Thanks.

Originally Posted By: Gardener

Dia & Antlers, I benefited greatly from following along on this recent back & forth of yours.Thanks.

I'm glad...it helped me too.

We need to thank O'dog for letting us use his thread some, and also apologize to him for some hijacking. Sorry O'dog.

How are you O'dog?

Doing OK. Kinda tired.

I had a busy day yesterday with work and kids so I didn't have much chance to read or answer anything.

I propose taking the analogy one step further and not allowing anyone, not just the She, to be your yardstick. You alone decide what you're worth.

---

No prob with the thread. Stay as long as you want. There's stuff to eat in the fridge.

How's the running and training going? Are you getting any miles in?

My kiddos are coming back over tomorrow afternoon after school.

I believe what you say about self-worth, but you know how the self-talk sometimes goes.

---

Thanks.

I'm getting in a modest amount of running and cycling. There's not a lot to train for right now until the tri vacation in March (big question mark here). Our tri club participates in a mileage competition in dec, jan, feb so that's good for some daily stuff.

I can still run and ride on my foot but it pinches during exercise and feels sore afterward. Surgery scheduled on the 29th to fix it will knock me out for a while but I should be able to start doing small things in mid-late dec. and mostly recovered by end of Jan.

It might be a good chance to work on stretching and core strength. Maybe I'll start waking OK instead of feeling like I got run over by a truck (even after rest days!).

---

Oh yes. The self-talk. I've got a long way to go on the self-valuation.

BTW - YES YES YES. YOU decide your self worth, and only you. That's precisely what I mean by an *interior* belief in your own self worth.

I've been using the following...

"I am worthy of value, respect, and compassion, whether or not I get them from others. If I don't get them from others, it is necessary to feel MORE worthy, not less. It is necessary to affirm my own deep value as a unique person (a child of God). I respect and value myself. I have compassion for my hurt. I have compassion for the hurt of loved ones. I trust myself to act in my best interests and in the best interests of my children."

I say it out loud with all the conviction that I can muster. I think it's good to do this daily.

Another weekend day of good weather. Time for a little two wheel therapy.

Originally Posted By: orangedog

Another weekend day of good weather. Time for a little two wheel therapy.

Human powered, or motorized?

It was a tough decision to figure out which one to take out. Octane won out only because my body was feeling stiff and sore (don't know why).

It's surprising to still be riding this late but there were plenty of other bikes out too. Nice scenic drive out the inlet. Then on the way home I took one of the hillside twisty roads. I had it buried in the red (it's an old bike but it can still move) and saw a brief flash of frost on the road. Aeeee!!! Just about as scary as seeing an car in the wrong lane.

I ride my road bike the rollers all winter and my mt bike outdoors packed snow and sand/gravel.

I plan to still ride my roadbike when I can during the winter, but I'm gonna get a mountain bike so I can keep peddling during the winter when it's too bad for my roadbike. Gimme some advice O'dog...

should I go hardtail or fullsquish?

Well I ride a hardtail mostly because the road bike gets first dibs on the $. That will have to change soon as I got just too pounded this season - maybe a better fork would do the trick.

A lot of the people I know who ride snow ride hardtails in the winter and some go as to swap a rigid fork claiming the fluid is troublesome. If you're really into biking snow and loose stuff then check out the super-fat tire bikes built on a Surly Pugsley or Fatback frame. No contest the best ride for the terrain.

For packed trails knobby tires do fine but on ice studded tires are better. There are guys who make their own monster tires using sheet metal screws but they weigh a bunch and are overkill for everything but traversing glaciers!

As far as clothing, windproof everything! You know that already from regular biking but when it's cold it so much worse. Those handlebar hand-overwrap things are also really helpful.

Thanks. We're here in the midwest. I'm leaning towards a hardtail...my roadbike get the $$ spent on it too. I like Giant, and I've been looking at the XTC 29'er 2. Full suspension I looked at was the Giant Trance X2. Big price difference between the two. I like the hardtail that I mentioned, and I think I could probably get it done on the trails here with it.

Nice rides - either one of them. As far as budget that's how it is with me too. The full-suspension bikes I like that are lightweight and tuneable are spendy.

I can go a lot of places on my hardtail, even very technical stuff. I like the low weight too. However on fast downhills I can't go as fast as the rest of the crowd.

I really like 29ers. Next bike will probably be one.

Thanks, man.

How are ya' today O'dog? Doin' OK?

Yes, doing ok. Tired - slept a bunch yesterday.

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The O'dog family traditionally held a large Halloween party. This year in light of recent events neither the She nor the Dog wanted to continue however the Pups insisted so it will be at the She's house.

The O'dog hadn't said anything to anyone but inside was a little indifferent about going. It's at the She's house and somewhat awkward. However lately the She has placed a lot of importance on this - the Dog must show up.

"Did you schedule your surgery two days before to get out of going to the party?" - No, it was first available date and I want to get it done.

"You're not going to be in great shape. If you can't go then YOU need to break it to the kids" - The O'dog can probably go but just can't/won't make a whole evening out of it - maybe an hour or two.

hmmm....why is She making a big deal out of this? Is it really about the Pups or is something else going on.

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In other news, O'dog joined the fb group for his Zendo (in real life I don't share matters of faith like I do around here). If family and friends wondered, then now they know. I really don't care but I suspect a few others will make a matter of it.

O'D
A zendo.
Gardener likes this.

Hang in there, buddy.

I'm answering my own question here but tell me if you think this is what's up.

The She is probably thinking something along the lines, "I don't want your opinions of me to somehow lead to disappointing the Pups."

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Gassho Gardner.

The She had to leave early AM on short biz trip so the Dog picked up the kids at the former house and took then to school.

D asked if I would be there for the party. I said "Yes, but I probably won't be 100%." S replied, "That's OK we'll get you a big chair and bring you food." (Yeahh!! Coincidentally I was thinking about dressing up as a king.)

D said the She is worried nobody will show up. hmmm...

Originally Posted By: orangedog

.....I was thinking about dressing up as a king.

Oh, so THIS. Put up your bad foot on a gout stool and wave your sceptre around regally while you are waited on hand and (wait for it ...)

Originally Posted By: Kettricken

Originally Posted By: orangedog

.....I was thinking about dressing up as a king.

Oh, so THIS. Put up your bad foot on a gout stool and wave your sceptre around regally while you are waited on hand and (wait for it ...)

It's good to be the King.