Ok. I'm ready to start over...again. Made a call to see a counselor for myself next week. Sent two emails regarding possible work leads. Going to get off the computer and be with my kids.
Going back to my list of things I need to do for me.
Thanks guys. Please help me stay on track and get back on track if and when I falter.
Going to a counselor is a good thing. Tracking down work leads is a good thing. Being with your kids is a good thing. Getting back to your list of things you need to do is a good thing. You are doing better than you think aliveandkicking. Give yourself credit. This is hard stuff...for sure. You are handling it...even though the rough spots are 'really rough'! You've got a lot of support here.
Really struggling to control my thoughts. Very interesting how I still want to make it all make sense in my mind.
H alluded yesterday to maybe going to see a MC. It is very hard for me to just let it go unless and until he brings it up again...I am going to stay out of it because every time I think someone can step in and fix this, I am wrong.
I think if and when the time is right, it will be when he is ready...
It seemed to be less in the context of saving the marriage and more about finding peace and sanity between us...honestly, that is what I want more than the M, peace and sanity.
AAK:
Really struggling to control my thoughts. Very interesting how I still want to make it all make sense in my mind.
One of my brother's (he, too, has dealt with M issues) favorite sayings is "you can't make sense out of nonsense." Don't try. You will just drive yourself batty.
Well, I am actively trying to stop trying to make it make sense.
25 says that feelings are the results of thoughts...and that we DO have control of our thoughts...we just have to exercise that control! I know...that's easier said than done...but so are lots of things that we are doing!
You can do it. Have you read the article from livestrong.com about detaching?
Yes, and of course, it scared me. If I detach completely and he does too...well...
But, I know it is right.
AAK,
Detaching is not giving up. It is accepting any outcome. Really accepting. I am working on this and feel I am pretty close.
Just because I am dropping the rope does not mean I cannot pick it up again to take up the slack if W comes walking back. I am just working to be ok with not picking the rope back up if she does not come back.
I think it is the only way to go, really, just takes work.
H has tried to say that I seem to be doing so well and the fact that I am not more upset when he tells me about other women just proves that my desire to R is not about him but just the kids...I had already explained to him that I was devastated early on but I have had to accept his decision and take care of myself. It is a major mindf*ck. And, honestly, the last time he said it, I said I am sorry it is so hard for him to believe that he was loved...and I believe that, he feels unloveable so he projects it.
Anyway, more mental gymnastics. I have to take care of me no matter what. It is hard to be even close to ok after only 6 months but it is the only option.
Anyway, more mental gymnastics. I have to take care of me no matter what. It is hard to be even close to ok after only 6 months but it is the only option.
It is the biggest jedi mind trick sh$@ I have ever experienced. Some think being M'd is hard work. I think trying to stay M'd in our sitch's is MUCH harder.
I agree 6 months is still too soon to get past it. I am even earlier in the process than you. We will still hurt, but with the right mindset, we will make it through and be much stronger when we do.
I am sometimes offended by his ability to GAL, is he offended too?
This is one thing that trips me up. Probably because he and I both have unhealthy ideas about what "love" is...it really is one thing that confuses me.
This is one thing that trips me up. Probably because he and I both have unhealthy ideas about what "love" is...it really is one thing that confuses me.
In what way? I have not read your whole thread.
I"m hanging with my kiddos, will try to summarize a little later. Mostly, I think we had a very co-dependent R...I want to think about how to explain concisely.
If someone truly loves you, can they get over it that quickly and just move on?
I think I am just exhibiting my lack of discipline here and finding ways to put the focus back on the R.
I have such a hard time accepting that the right thing to do is to let go...that I can love him and give up trying to control the sitch...
But, the only thing that will keep me sane is to start focusing on myself.
I am going out tonight and I feel guilty...something to look at (I didn't go out enough with him etc)...
I am looking forward to counseling. I have to work on my issues and accept that it will be a healthy R or no R for me...that sanity comes first.
AK--
I can relate to the guilty feelings for going out. The counseling will help you gain clarity and see where you want or need to head in your life.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
I'm actually afraid of becoming too self-centered...aargh.
I just wanted to say I totally understand where you are coming from. I feel like my H has that same issue. He cannot accept that I have and continue to love him unconditionally. But, I am not stupid either and I have done well and am trying to live my life in the best way I can....cuz at the end of the day, I will have to live it, with or without him! I can only try and prep myself for the worst possible circumstance.
But, point was that my H projects his insecurities onto me as well. I think the last time he said that I just calmly reiterated that it is his decision to leave and I am trying my best to respect him. And I think I have repeated that statement several times now. Someone told me to repeat the exact sentence and one day, he may get it.
It is such a mental game....and just exhausting on a daily basis. Its been 2 months for me and I just find this whole thing...exhausting! But, as you said no other options and I refuse to quit on myself!
As sick as it sounds, I am envious that you don't have kids in the middle of this...I love my kids more than anything but honestly, it is just prolonged agony having them on this ride with us.
I have said similar things to H. But, really, I don't think it sinks in. He will use anything as evidence that we can't work. When we have a good time together, it is habit/bad, after that he feels bad, when I am doing well and GAL that is proof that I don't really love him, when I am sad and vulnerable it is too much pressure, when I tell him to give me space because he has stated clearly that he wants this separation, that is me being weird, when I handle him talking about women without weeping it is proof I don't care, when I describe how tormented I was in the beginning he winces and tells me that makes him sad and to stop...
So that is what I meant earlier about "unhealthy." If I wont die without him, I must not have really loved him.
Is this separation just another test? Another trap? I mean throughout our M in the last few years I felt I was being tested. To pass his test, I would have to be independent and self-sufficient but available when and if he needs me and know when to do what. F*ck it. I'm wearing myself out again.
All I really have is me. And, more and more I think Gucci is right. The only thing that has gotten H's attention has been looking good, feeling good and being evasive and GAL...how that will parlay into a new M is a mystery and highly unlikely to happen IMO.
A&K,
Girl! Have you read Codependency No More? If not, go get it and read it. You and I are so similar it isn't even funny. GO out! Have FUN! Enjoy yourself as that is what living is supposed to be about. Stop letting him have prime real estate in your brain. DETACH! This isn't letting him go. This is letting go of your attempts to control him and the situation. Detaching is realizing that life happens. Whatever bad situation you are in will change. Life does not remain stagnant if you live it. Wallowing in wondering and attempts to control are like a pig wallowing in crap. It only makes you smell bad. Get a life girl. You deserve happiness. Your children deserve to have a mother who knows that she is in control of that happiness and she is in control of her feelings. You are the one who gives your husband the power to affect your feelings. STOP IT!
*said in the most loving of voices*
I know. Thanks for the reminder. Isn't it ridiculous how we do it even when we know we are doing it???
I'm almost too tired to go out. Waiting for late babysitter...
Had a fun night. Still, I missed H. I felt so single and it freaked me out. It is a strange new world. Definitely not ready for romance.
Have you read Codependency No More?
My therapist gave a copy to my W while she was still going to therapy with me. My W got through a couple chapters before throwing the book up against the wall. I guess she didn't like reading about herself. Anyways I read a couple chapters already, it has some good stuff in it.
AAk,
I can understand the spin that H puts you in....it can and will drive you insane! I don't have that much hope for a new M these days....so I get that feeling as well. Remember, the reality has not changed much. Its the same. I do agree that it makes things more difficult and complicated to have kids in the pic. Of course you love them to death....but how to take care of you in the midst of your kids and husband constantly being there.
When I started this process, I was envious of all of you with kids. At least you have a connection and you are not alone all the time. I knew it was messed up when I was thinking it, but its the truth. I still wish I had kids, but I am being given so many challenges right now, that I just am trying to hold on. I think its the "grass is greener" thing and you want to have another place to psychologically place the burden.....even if for just a second. I think you are doing amazing. I don't even have my H around anywhere near me and I am still having days where I really just struggle.
I think this is the most difficult part for most of us. And I don't think there is anything you can say to him about the M or your R that will make any difference. I have just stopped talking to my H about the R - at all. Of course he's 6 states North of me- so it makes it easier! But, if he starts to talk...just listen. NO Talking. Listen. Validate. Listen.
Don't tell him it was hard for you. Tell him nothing. If he says that you are showing that you don't care (my H has said that), I'd stay calm...don't react....and say, "I do care for you." If he says you are being selfish or this is proof that you don't care, say "Yes, I can see how it seem that way". Don't try to make it better. Don't try to make it better.
He has done this....let him deal. Someone on this board once told me to say or text or email half the words he does. It works!
You've got the idea though. Take care of you...look hot! feel sexy! Be evasive and mysterious! GAL! in short, BE YOU! and ENJOY IT!
Have a great day AAK!
I have the weirdest of situations. I have kids. They are not my STBXH's. He left telling them he didn't want to be responsible or a dad. He hasn't contacted them since he left. Hard to understand someone walking out on three children who everyone and I do mean everyone talks so highly of. They have no respect for him anymore. This in a way makes it easier for me. They no longer want him to be a part of their lives because of his choices. They believe he is a hypocrite, liar, and a cheat. I do not believe that there is anything he could possibly do to regain their trust and him not contacting them just further cements that in their minds. He has truly lost something he said he has wanted his entire life, a family.
So, just saw a text on my phone from 4:30am saying we should talk today about plans for the kids.
So he texts to say lets talk basically a few hours from then.
I know it sounds paranoid but I know he does that to provoke me, show me that he is out partying til the wee hours...
And me, just becoming more aware that he wants to get to me and give up on the why. I have to see it as giving me some advantage regardless of how juvenile it is.
Guys, help me understand. Assuming he doesn't have an actual personality disorder, what's the deal with trying to "show me" how fab he is and how great he is without me?
Do any of you relate to that?
I'm still gonna go about having a great day!!
AAK:
Guys, help me understand. Assuming he doesn't have an actual personality disorder, what's the deal with trying to "show me" how fab he is and how great he is without me?
OK, first, you are making a conclusion as to his motivation for texting you. Again, this is still under the heading of wondering "why." If you are wrong, then he called to set up a time to talk about the kids.
Second, assuming you are correct, IMHO, it could mean he still feels some pull towards you. Again, that assumes you are correct. Even if you are correct, it doesn't mean he will come back.
Point is, put the focus where it belongs - on YOU, not on him or his motivation in doing X or Y.
Guys, help me understand. Assuming he doesn't have an actual personality disorder, what's the deal with trying to "show me" how fab he is and how great he is without me?
Do any of you relate to that?
I'm still gonna go about having a great day!!
Maybe he has some insecurities (feeling inadequate and unlovable) and he is overcompensating for them by behaving this way?
Happy 4th aliveandkicking...hope you have a really good day!
Maybe he has some insecurities (feeling inadequate and unlovable) and he is overcompensating for them by behaving this way?
Well that is for darn sure. Just wish I knew what to do with it...but that is beyond my scope.
I think I make his behavior way too much about me. I'm not going to be able to fix this for him...
Back to me.
Happy 4th to you too.
It is funny thought that in a way he is DBing...I mean it is a little over the top but if his goal was to get me back, it worked.
Hey friend. It's Independence Day.
Independence. Day.
Independence.
(Did I mention "independence"?)
Yes, I am not ready to fully embrace my independence. Kids will be with H this weekend. I have plans but honestly, the whole thing kind of makes me want to crawl in bed with some ice cream and a case of beer.
But, I will get a PMA and have good time.
Happy 4th to you too!
"Independence" not = solitude, not = aloneness, not = "without kids."
"Independence" = thinking about and for you.
Deciding for you.
Choosing you.
Remaining alive and kicking. For YOU.
And I want to choose bed, ice cream and beer but I'm not going to.
F*ck!!! Dropped the kids off to H. Sucks.
H was checking me out. Nice soft hug. We're so close but so far away. He's a bozo but I still love him.
Time to consume something...
Had a hard day today and yeah.......I can totally relate to wanting to choose bed, ice cream and any other junk I can get my hands on. Hope you ended up having a better evening and enjoyed some time to yourself to just be You!
Had a nice night up until the fireworks. And then the pain, first time in 9 years not being with my kid (s) on the 4th...so many memories of H and me on the 4th even before kids...
texts from h...more tomorrow.
sad, too much alcohol (for me that's two beers but I'm wiped out).
hard. so hard. just the beginning of all of the moments lost as a family.
cr*p.
AK--
I know your pain. I had no kids with me for fireworks, either. The little girls were with my sister, oldest with her friends, and S3 in a car traveling home with DH. I am choosing to consider it a stepping stone across a large river, laying a path to a restoration where these separations will not happen in the future. Naive? Maybe. But God is mighty and I do not know his plan, only that right now, his will is that I stand strong and believe. So I do.
While I was sad about being alone, I remembered all the past years, the joy in my children's eyes as they watched the colorful explosions and the love that filled DH and I watching them enjoy the fireworks. And I thanked God as I watched the fireworks. I thanked Him for being blessed enough to live in a free country where I have liberties and freedoms that others can only dream of. I thanked Him every small blessing in my life that I take for granted, only because they have always been there. And in the thanking, I found peace.
Find your peace, AK.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Had a nice night up until the fireworks. And then the pain, first time in 9 years not being with my kid (s) on the 4th...so many memories of H and me on the 4th even before kids...
texts from h...more tomorrow.
sad, too much alcohol (for me that's two beers but I'm wiped out).
hard. so hard. just the beginning of all of the moments lost as a family.
cr*p.
This is the part I'm most worried about. Why should *I* have to sacrifice holidays and special moments with my little girls because H wanted out?
So far the only thing I've missed is DD's first (and second) time swimming. H has missed much more than that over her 20-month life because of his work schedule. He's worked for the past two 4th of July holidays. He's worked both T-Days, Christmases, New Years Eves, Easter...
That's the b*tch dmk, in my case my H is used to missing so much, he is actually gaining from the separation. He will never experience the pain of being a mother who up until now was there for every momentous moment. Of course we anticipate eventually being separated from our babes but not when they're so little.
And, the worst part, I think my H derives a sense of power and revenge by being able to take such selfish actions that ultimately cause me so much grief. Yes, I'm mind reading but since he used the words "pay back" with me, I feel sick with the implication that he is out to hurt me.
I know I'll get chided for making assumptions but H has serious mommy issues, I dare say he hates her deep down but he can't get rid of her so that leaves me to work it out on. Just disgusting.
Damn this roller coaster. I really feel like a nut...
doing better. but jeezus first had to go through feeling like I was going to drive off a cliff.
I want peace...
I'm confident you're gonna find it...we all are...it's just gonna take some time.
thanks. I went from wanting to drive away forever to wanting to file for D to wanting to get H to go into counseling with me to wanting to insist that he get counseling for himself or I wont speak with him to showing up at the ridiculously fantastically surreal place he's staying, hanging out (other people there that I met for the first time), having a bite, being personable and leaving on a positive note...I really feel nuts but it felt better to just go with the flow. I looked good, my energy was good...don't know how I did it.
I don't want to judge but I also don't want to condone.
I looked good, my energy was good...don't know how I did it.
Smiley's Person doesn't believe that for a minute.
The not-knowing-how-you-did-it part, that is.
H texted that he wants to meet me for lunch with kids and of course I sort of want to but I also sort of want him to get run over by a truck...
thoughts?
I looked good, my energy was good...don't know how I did it.
Smiley's Person doesn't believe that for a minute.
The not-knowing-how-you-did-it part, that is.
Thanks Smiley. I mean that I don't know how I go from being a raving miserable lunatic to pulling it together and appearing "normal"...
I say this in a gentle fashion but IMO you make yourself far to available at the last minute with your H. It seems when he has a spare moment that is when he wants to make plans and because you mostly agree, you enable this and allow him to continue to think you will be there when he feels so inclined to see you.
I would text back (and this is JMO) and let him know that he is welcome to come get the kids for lunch but you have plans so you will just have to take a rain check on the lunch. I might even say... "hey H, I may have a few available days next week for lunch so let me know your schedule, I will let you know mine and we can see what day would be good for both of us".
This serves several purposes (A) you are allowing him to see his kids (B) you are not dropping everything to be with him and meet his last minute requests for plans as they suit his schedule (C) you are requesting some consideration for your schedule (D) you are making yourself less available as your time is of no less value than his and (E) you are letting him know that getting together for lunch is cool but your schedule is busy too so some advance planning is the route you would prefer.
JMO!
CG- Thanks. He had the kids all weekend so I'm not sending them with him. He'll get them on Wednesday and I wont be invited to hang out. I think I would like to just be too busy but my kids just want to hang at home today (which they usually want to do after exhausting weekend with him) so, since they tell him everything, I can't really pull of how busy we are...
I'm going to try to make other plans.
I know I'll get chided for making assumptions but H has serious mommy issues, I dare say he hates her deep down but he can't get rid of her so that leaves me to work it out on. Just disgusting.
What is it with the WAHs and their MOMMY ISSUES?!
I could have written that paragraph.
A/K,
You wacky girl you. All I can say is you are SO not on the right thread if you are seriously thinking your h's problem with you or your m, is a sexual one. Unless you are the worst liar here, It is not. It is HIM...all him...and the way he gets away with mistreating you (which is you).
Since all you control is you, why not focus on that? You search and search for the answer to your riddle of why he treats you this badly. In his case, as in many narcissists and even many ordinary people, it is b/c they CAN. And when you lower your standards there are many who will sink to meet them.
I suggest you read a book (or 5 or 6), on "Boundaries" (one has that exact name and though it begins with some religious quotes that may make you uncomfortable, it does cover some good techniques). Set some and Then enforce them. It's not easy but it's also not complicated.
I can't think of a single consequence your h has suffered for more than what, 2-3 days? And what is this stuff about you getting "Scared" when he threatens to be an [censored]. Honey, what is HE BEING NOW??...come on.
I guess I have to ask you, what is it that you will have to see or hear from him to let him go? What will it take? Does he need to hit you? More than once - if he is really sorry for the first time? Does he have to confess to cheating on you AGAIN and without any remorse?
Does he have to promise that he WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO? Hasn't that more or less already happened? Hasn't he pretty much has given himself permission to sleep around by virtue of telling you, and by leaving the home. B/C he comes and goes as he pleases, and b/c you allow this, still, He has truly freed himself without the hassle of obliging you to behave the same way. After all, there are the children for YOU to consider...
In HIS mind, he has the ultimate; a wife and kids at home who understand his special and unusual needs...to be with other "people"
and not abide by ordinary rules or constraints or responsibilities that other plebes follow. NOT YOUR H!! He's far too gifted and different and really, genius when you contemplate Him in all his glory....
And you, A/K, seem to agree with him and to this. But for the life of me, I don't get why.
I am not a shrink and have no inside info. But when I post, well...I pointed out sometime ago, the obvious. That what you are doing is not working, which you know. I have told you what I did that succeeded in my case and what I've seen here on these boards. From that info, I can tell you that I see your behavior as being kind of a "head in the sand -I can take this crap and more" and It has never worked. And it is hell on you and your well being.
I'd like to help you and I know we're not far geographically speaking. But I don't know what type of support you really need. I'm tempted to give you 2 x 4's b/c I don't see the progress at all.
I see withering self esteem & childhood issues and I recall your background & fears that paralyze you only to bring about the very thing you most fear; a divorced family.
As for OW, Does it matter that much to you if she's only a fling, one of more to come, or if she's the great love of his life? How much will you let him do before you say "enough!"?? You really need to KNOW that at least SOMETHING(S) definitely would get you off the fence. For instance, I KNOW A punch in the face would end my M and honestly there were times I wished for that type of clarity. But I never (knowingly ) dealt with a wandering spouse, let alone one who would "share" that info with me...thank God.
Jesus, what kind of disrespect is that? IS he that pathetic and self centered that your needs and feelings are soooo far behind his, that he'll tell YOU - of all people - about his exploits or whether they worked out or felt good or who else he met and blah blah blah blah BLEH!
Or is he just cruel? Or all of the above?
What about Moving his "office" somewhere else ASAP? ((please...PLEASE....office?? Come on, tell him to use his cell phone and a notepad...come on)). MAKE A PLAN TO GET HIM OUT OF YOUR FACE AND GET SOME SPACE....see how it feels to HIM to be separated b/c honey he is NOT...he has the cake and he's eating it too and I see no end to this situation. Honestly- if there is going to be an end to this it won't be you ending it. It'll be him meeting enough of an OW or being sure enough of the single life that he's ready to fully cut all ties and you will have wasted so much time "with"//without" Him, and not moving on and probably ruining the slim chance you have of turning this around. You think by letting him do this stuff and facing no consequences, and seeing you just take it and take it, that he'll wake up and say "OMG, I am not being kind to my w! WTH is wrong with me??? I will change my ways and go home now!!" Do you think that is likely? I don't think it is at all likely. If it were, it would have happened by now. He has had his chance to realize, apologize and return to do the right thing. That time has passed imho. Sorry.
But I think if there's a chance of waking him up (there may be as he is not indifferent, but his immaturity is so extreme, seriously--that I can't tell if he is the type of guy who doesn't have to love his W to want her to wait and wait in case he comes home. It could be that he likes having you there, even if he isn't that crazy about you. I can't tell....BUT as I was saying, if he loves you somewhere in there and his insatiable ego can be handled BY HIM, than maybe there's a chance you can enable him to wake up but it would ONLY be by
doing something VERY DIFFERENT than what you have been doing, including actions for more than a week. PLEASE...make a month your minimum for testing results. Since when are you in a hurry? You have put with this crap for how long now?
Okay, end of speech. Tell me how I can help you b/c I'm not clear on that. It IS frustrating b/c you don't seem clear and when you sort of are, you come up with reasons why you cannot set a boundary AND then you cower and cave in again.
Set boundaries. If they're reasonable, you won't have a "reason" to doubt yourself and cave in. IT will all be about whether you can be strong enough to enforce one. No more explanations about why his behavior is somehow not the behavior of a cad - who should be taken behind the woodshed and have things "splained" to him...
Just what do you need most from me and us here?
(( j ))
Hi 25, I know you are exasperated but trust me, if you knew me IRL, you would see that I have changed and I am growing. Unfortunately, it can take time to really build up the strength to change the dynamic and follow through.
Just last night S9 was talking about wishing H would come home. It is difficult and I want to do the right thing.
That said, I woke up this morning feeling so clearly that there really is no hope for a sane life with H.
I think what we are devising is hopefully some kind of sane separation...
As for the sex, I did withhold sex in the M. Our sex life sucked and I was also very controlling and neurotic and stressed out. Of course he was provocative but I'd be shortchanging myself if I didn't acknowledge my shortcomings.
The sexual issue is/was HUGE for him. He felt totally rejected and unloveable and that is why he throws it in my face now that he is "wanted". That doesn't by any means make it healthy for me to endure. But, I do understand and I find it sad.
I'm sure his "in" with me is who he has been in the past and his expressions and exhibitions of concern just when I'm about to totally give up on him.
He is not the mastermind that I convince myself he is. Rather, he is a big insecure baby who knows that my achilles heel is my desire to have my family together (thus, the invitation to have lunch today) and since I said we might not be around, he mentioned coming by the house. This is going to be a huge drama because I really don't want him coming here.
I need to run for now because I want to leave. But please don't disappear. I want to have this conversation with you.
I'll be around AK, but have family coming tonight so may only check in briefly.
Also, don't get sucked into how all this is your fault. You withheld sex...okay, own that. It sucks but then somehow I feel as if two other things may be possible. He may not have been terribly lovable at that time, so guess what? You didn't feel loving...and 2nd even if you were a cold fish, okay, you are no longer that. NEXT..."a problem being worked on, is a problem solved". So you can say that you "get it" and won't do that in your NEXT R, but you cannot tolerate this crap right now anyhow. I mean do you need to take this BS for what, a decade? 15 years? How long does he get to use that "blame assignment", without any responsibility on his end and while ignoring that you are different now? Your approach is not working. And it's not healthy for anyone. End of story.
Sorry. That's not to say there won't be other "chapters" possible later BUT your desire to "have a family together" cannot be at the expense of having a healthy R with yourself, or a man, or your kids, and how can you have any of those if you tolerate this insanity? Besides, your family is not together anyway....and you cannot have this craziness - as you are really starting to recognize. YOU ARE GETTING IT and I can see that. SO - in a way it IS simple, but not easy.
((( j- )))
Thanks 25. I am also seeing a counselor on Wednesday.
Oh good. Now get out of that house! It's a pretty day and tomorrow will suck if the police are right about the MJ memorial turning crazy later on....wacky.
(And sad.)
ANYHOW never mind that. You need to go BE FUN!
j-
So, no internet access all day!!!
I had a nice day in just about the nicest part of town today.
Back to earlier. H wanted to have lunch with us and I said we probably had plans. H said he needed to come by to get some things.
Despite the fact that I really wanted to just stay home and chill, gathered up the kids and booked it out of here.
H called again to see if we could meet for lunch. Was surprised that we were out, he was "convinced we'd be home" (wtf??). I Made the mistake of letting him know what area we were going to as I wanted him to know we'd be far. Wow, H told me by coincidence he would be in that area later, maybe we could meet up. I said no, that we had plans. He said "I don't know why I'm pushing it." Tried one more time and then said "fine I guess I'll just see them on Wednesday!"
Then he texted an apology for having an attitude. Left a message about having come by the house and someone he knows says hi. Then texted later to see if kids wanted to talk to him...which I did not answer until much too late.
Now, this was all a huge challenge for me. Left the house on a dime. Didn't accept lunch invitation. Didn't accept dinner invitation. Didn't respond to texts or message.
Why is it sooooo hard????
25- I thought a lot today about what the heck I am doing. I am a smart woman, why am I dragging this out?
a) obviously there is much more to H than the nincompoop he is being now AND, there are still moments that are thoughtful, touching, reminiscent of better times (yes in the midst of mostly juvenile absurdity)...point being, you know I wouldn't be wrestling with this if I didn't have some awareness of what H is capable of. Not saying that is valid or working, just explaining. And, I love him...don't barf.
b) as of now, he gives me LOTS of information regarding work, money coming in, deals he is making (some of which will be oversees and I would have no way of knowing of without his disclosure). While we are friendly, I not only get this info but I also will benefit if the deals happen prior to D or big falling out. I know this sounds crass and it just occurred to me today when he mentioned something about an upcoming deal.
c) In my heart of hearts, I think I need counseling to deal with the repercussions of shutting off H. Despite the fact that he is the WAS, he is so erratic and completely oblivious to the reality of what is coming with a legitimate separation (which I am trying to enforce) and I do have fear regarding how he will respond when the sh*t hits the fan. I am way too reactive emotionally to his perception and/or characterization of what is happening. I am also very concerned about my kids' emotional well being and them not being used in any way here. All I can say is that I am trying to get assistance and I doubt very much that we should proceed with anything legally until we have someone helping to deal with the emotional issues as clearly neither of us are emotionally detached. If H is actually a clinical narcissist, then, from what I've read, I will need to get the upper hand and work his behavior to my advantage or he will run me over and charm the pants off of everyone else while he's doing it (lawyers, judges etc)...I have seen him put on the oh so together and conscientious dad routine when we dealt with a third party and I almost vomited (was like a different person).
Anyway, today required a lot of strength and I think most days will for a long time to come.
Oh, and as for what I want from you all here. Like everyone else, I want support, I want a place to vent and sort it out and live my ups and downs out of the purview of those who are so close to me. And, I want advice that I can chew on and digest and even if I don't totally get it or implement it, it goes in and I ponder it over time. I have actually gone back more than a couple of times to your posts from months ago and they hit me very differently today than they did back then.
Change can be slow and it is hard to witness, I know. But, I am the only one living my circumstance and facing my future alone. I can't possibly give you a full enough picture to expect you to walk me through this step by step but I sure do appreciate all of the wise words and passionate input I receive here.
It will work out.
You're "dragging this out" because you love him and are honoring your commitment to the M. Period.
Many of our WASs accuse us of "holding them back" or telling us to "let them go". What they are instead saying is "hey, I need your approval to show that you approve of me treating you like sh*t so this stupid conscience of mine stops bothering me."
Like I told my W when she got angry at me last week, I told her that she was getting everything she wanted yet was still getting mad. I told her if she was so unhappy, to just leave. And I really didn't care one way or the other.
Plus I think you're showing your kids a great example of doing the right thing.
I think it's a crock when people say they are divorcing and they are doing it for the kids so they don't see them unhappy. And how they would do anything for their kids.
What a pile of sh*t. If they really cared for their kids, they wouldn't be sleeping around with someone else. If they really cared for their kids, they would stop complaining about how THEY are unhappy and get some frickin' help to work the M out. And if they REALLY cared for their kids, they would stop treating the LBS like crap everytime they saw them.
Your H is doing the same. He's teaching your kids that it's okay to treat mommy like dirt because after all, daddy was unhappy.
Your H is doing the same. He's teaching your kids that it's okay to treat mommy like dirt because after all, daddy was unhappy.
I think the issue on the table right now is whether it is healthy for anyone for me to be treated "like dirt" and what I'm going to do about it.
I think the issue on the table right now is whether it is healthy for anyone for me to be treated "like dirt" and what I'm going to do about it.
I am working on that Coach. I am seeking help.
Things are going to get hairy.
Yeah, that is the issue. Not what your h will do or say or think or characterize this as...and who the hell cares how HE sees it? Again I ask you, do you really think he'll gain insight into this after all this time? He hasn't thus far and if there is a way for him to "get it", it's ONLY going to be by you taking the upper hand and stopping the nonsense. (Remember that book, "Stop the Insanity!"? Your sitch reminds me of that...only not a diet).
Anyhow, I do see progress in you, but not in him or the sitch. So, I guess I leave you with that. For now I mean. You feel differently but you are not following thru UNTIL yesterday so that's good. Too bad it's still so tough but it does get easier. Practice. And look at how he stopped being an ass when you acted like an adult not a puppy with him.
As for your comments, yes I do sense some excuse making in your views. But I concur that you need to get a good c for you and for the kids as you move forward. Don't count on your h getting any and why on earth would you even mention him getting help (I think you did). My fear is that you are, in reality, still waiting for him. And or, letting your fears paralyze you. And you cannot do that. But you can move forward and protect your kids. At some point they'll know things are weird if they don't already - and God knows they must see some of your pain. Imagine being single and not miserable...can you visualize your life not sucking? I can.
Try hard to focus on that imagery and not the fears. And get a good c asap. What are you waiting for as far as a c? I mean, what's the hold up?
Keep posting. There will be movement. (I hope.)
((( j- )))
My appointment with the C is tomorrow.
H texted me in the pre-dawn hours that he is so stressed about money and why aren't my parents helping more etc.
I really let him have it, not bitch, just straightforward and when is he going to look at himself???
Texted me back that he was up all night looking at himself.
I said we should discuss these matters in person as grown ups.
We have absolutely HUGE financial issues and they are the a huge part of why he ran away. Now, it is hitting him and he thinks my dad will bail us out???
I really wish I could find someone to help us wade through this. We need a really adept MC and I am not saying to fix the marriage but to help us tackle the multitude of issues from finances, to emotional, to the kids.
I will see if the C tomorrow is capable of dealing with this kid of situation.
Hey AK,
I would have just texted back, "My hero." What a turn-off.
Now your dad is supposed to support his dreams too? He must be so proud.
Your H should be sent away on one of those survival bootcamps in the desert.
I know you love him. Are you able to be turned on by him? Is he what you want?
Lucky
He just told me his "amazing" rich friend will pay for a place for him for the next few months. That's it. I told him that is amazing that he will be enabled and never have to grow up. Cool for him but not too cool for his kids.
Unf*cking believable.
No, I'm not turned on.
Ok, I lost it. I can't deal. I feel like I'm going to get so f*cked here.
In what way? He doesn't really give you anything.
And now, I'm making it easier for him to let me go. and he saw this coming and blah blah blah...
Yes he has paying all of the bills just late and not dealing with the debt.
And now, I'm making it easier for him to let me go. and he saw this coming and blah blah blah...
Hi AAK.
How are you making it easier for him to let you go?
He said that because I went off on him.
He said that because I went off on him.
Well, like Coach says...'put your spew raincoat on'! Don't believe anything he says right now! Shed it like water off a duck's back!
I'm really having a hard time.
I know you are, and I'm sorry. What can we do to help you right now?
Hello, friend. I'm certainly no paragon of virtue or wisdom or even much common sense, and I'll likely be way off the reservation here, but....
But.It strikes me that, purely as an objective matter, if you could divorce yourself from the emotional roller-coaster (pun intended), things might look different.
If this latest stunt is at all indicative of Monsoor's "normal" way of looking at things, in many respects you're catching a break here with the dissolution of the marriage. This is not the kind of behavior that one wants/needs/expects where two small children -- and their futures -- are at stake. I mean, "my rich bud is loaning me the guest house on his estate" is hardly a college savings plan, is it?
Surely you're familiar with
the book by Dan Kiley,
The Peter Pan Syndrome: Men Who Have Never Grown Up. Et pour Le Shmedlap, ici l'article du Wikipedia en Francais:
Le Syndrome de Peter Pan.
Have you read Kiley's
companion book,
The Wendy Dilemma: When Women Stop Mothering Their Men?
I would also recommend
Albert Bernstein's book,
Emotional Vampires: Dealing With People Who Drain You Dry.
The main thing, though, is this: Let's assume you want your marriage to survive and thrive. You have several hills that need climbing, in much the same way that those married to addicts do. Because the day Monsoor calls a halt to his wandering ways, and agrees to work at the marriage, you'll have ascended to a peak only to see a much larger mountain behind it -- all of these issues of employment, star-gazing, "hanging out," and the marriage-killing topic of money. That's an awful lot of The Work.
I don't envy you. And I certainly am inclined to give you a pass on a lot of your frustrations, back-sliding temptations, worries about mind-f*cks, and the rest.
I wish
you were so inclined, too, friend.
Thanks SP. I'm a little too cloudy to read between the lines but I get your drift.
I get it and then I hurt and then I don't get it and then I get it again.
Really, just being here is cool. Thanks.
Can't Coach just tell me what to do?
Im sorry that you're hurting, AK.
He's going to have to pay some bills no matter what happens in your marriage. Try not to feel left behind. There is a more meaningful path for you and the kids to take. Let him have the empty razzle dazzle.
I'm the Louise to your Thelma.
Lucky
If this latest stunt is at all indicative of Monsoor's "normal" way of looking at things, in many respects you're catching a break here with the dissolution of the marriage. This is not the kind of behavior that one wants/needs/expects where two small children -- and their futures -- are at stake. I mean, "my rich bud is loaning me the guest house on his estate" is hardly a college savings plan, is it?
And???
I am inclined to find my own place with the kids and ask for a certain amount of money (that I know he can afford) and he can do what he wishes with his money.
Or what? Wait until his gravy train stops...he may float forever.
I'm beyond pissed that I have to make the next move.
And??? And quite apart from the emotional component of this whole situation -- the hurt, the fear, etc. -- there's something to be said for considering yourself to be getting out while the getting's good. This guy's approach to life seems to be a ticking time-bomb for you and the kids under the best of circumstances.
Apparently he's taken to heart the nostrum that it
never rains in southern California.
AK,
He already LEFT. The next move isn't really a move... It's just paperwork.
(((((AK)))))
Lucky
Can't Coach just tell me what to do?
He wrote this to another poster..."you are the leader in your relationship right now, thinking thru possible solutions, your issues to be resolved, re-thinking priorities/beliefs and getting stronger and healthier." - Coach
AAK -
I feel your pain. I understand debt. I understand a H not dealing w/it. We are nowhere near your level, but my H has ignored the filing of taxes, and now we're "fixing" it.
One thing to remember...
If you remain married, eventually you will BOTH have to deal with the debt, together.
If you separate/divorce, eventually you will BOTH have to deal with the debt, separately.
He's going to have to deal with this debt sooner or later. Or "things" he owns, has loans on, etc..., will start to go away.
How can you deal with this in a way you are comfortable with?
His inability to man up and handle this unfortunately puts it on your shoulders. I guess you just need to figure out how you can handle it in a way that's best for you and the kids.
Good luck, friend.
PS - I think the rest of R/M stuff is unable to be dealt with until the financial stress is either handled, or on a path.
And??? And quite apart from the emotional component of this whole situation -- the hurt, the fear, etc. -- there's something to be said for considering yourself to be getting out while the getting's good. This guy's approach to life seems to be a ticking time-bomb for you and the kids under the best of circumstances.
Apparently he's taken to heart the nostrum that it
never rains in southern California.
Well, thanks for the laugh. I mean it.
AK,
He already LEFT. The next move isn't really a move... It's just paperwork.
(((((AK)))))
Lucky
No. A physical move must happen. And I am wondering if I shouldn't get on that before school starts.
AAK -
I feel your pain. I understand debt. I understand a H not dealing w/it. We are nowhere near your level, but my H has ignored the filing of taxes, and now we're "fixing" it.
One thing to remember...
If you remain married, eventually you will BOTH have to deal with the debt, together.
If you separate/divorce, eventually you will BOTH have to deal with the debt, separately.
He's going to have to deal with this debt sooner or later. Or "things" he owns, has loans on, etc..., will start to go away.
How can you deal with this in a way you are comfortable with?
His inability to man up and handle this unfortunately puts it on your shoulders. I guess you just need to figure out how you can handle it in a way that's best for you and the kids.
Good luck, friend.
PS - I think the rest of R/M stuff is unable to be dealt with until the financial stress is either handled, or on a path.
I am debating whether we should file for bankruptcy together or legally separate/D and take our own debt. I could manage my debt especially if I ask for a little more alimony in exchange for keeping my paws off of his valuables...
The money issue SHOULD have been dealt with before he left as it is the elephant in the room. He has more of a start fresh approach and throw the baby out with the bath water. Meaning, it was our R that led to his overspending and debting. I have to give up on trying to evolve his thinking.
I've heard it's always best to do everything you can to avoid filing for bankruptcy.
Yep. That means, filing for a D I didn't want and moving.
GOD! I feel your pain!!!
I do own my part of this, and have, but that f'd up thinking is the WORST!
Does your H know that these are the options you see? What does he think about this?
AAK,
Try not to let your H's accusations get to you. He just needs someone to blame for his own inability to deal.
Most of the WAWs do that. They transfer their frustrations, fear, guilt, shame, embarrasment, etc. onto the LBS so they don't seem like the bad guy.
When he texts you just don't respond back. If he calls you and says they are about the kids, call him back and once the kid part is over, say that you were in the middle of something and gotta go.
Just like that.
Try not to let your H's accusations get to you.
Well, some of them are true because I am human. But enough is enough. And I let him know that.
Now of course we are back to friendly.
Does your H know that these are the options you see? What does he think about this?
He says let's do the bankruptcy, let's file for legal sep, but doesn't take any action. I have offered resources including a bankruptcy attorney, he could see my relative who is a D attorney who would lay out how this works, he could see his own D attorney (obviously), I have a financial advisor, we have an accountant, we have a referral for a debt counselor...
I have to make the appointments and pick the path (and that is what he has always ultimately resented me for cuz I'm controlling)...yada yada..
I could lay out the options one more time and see what he says. He's too chicken sh*t to own this one. Dammit.
And why are we now texting about bullsh*t? Just to make nice?? Why can't I just do this without softening the blow?????
You've been working hard to focus on yourself and to take the higher road. You are angry and you have every right to be. Perhaps you are in a gray area between DBing and faking it. At some point, perhaps when you've made your decision about what to do, authenticity will have to come into play. In other words, when you're mad as hell, you will be direct about it (not hysterical, just direct) rather than hiding behind nice texts.
I know I said I lost it but in reality, that means I was authentic and direct. I guess optimally, I would have the guts to just state my bottom line (s) without judging/analyzing him. I would take the information he gives me and make a determination as to if and how it effects me and the kids. No more trying to break through. That means, no emotional investment in what he thinks about me or says to me and others including my kids.
The nice texts are genuine. This is f'ing stupid. We love eachother and like eachother (our real selves) and are both trying to stay afloat. But, the reality is that he is choosing to deal with this separate and apart from me so he should be on his own.
Well then, it is a blessing that you are able to be nice to each other and face the tough stuff directly. You will be forever connected because of the boys, so why not be true yet mature and kind.
Yuck. Sorry AK.
Lucky
I'm aware of my dysfunction. I'm seeing a C tomorrow. I need to stop seeing us as a team (25 told me this a million years ago). If explaing it conveys that I think it is working for me then I'm guilty of grave miscommunication.
For now, I really want to work on NOT reacting so emotionally to him. Beyond how I communicate with him but what happens internally. Thus the C.
I just feel like I'm digging myself into a hole here. I know this is not liveable.
Oh, and my bottle top today says, "every dog has his day."
You just need to detach and focus on a future that you're excited about. You'll do that when you're ready and no sooner.
Every dog DOES have his day. Karma, baby.
I am glad you are seeing a C'ing tomorrow. It really can be a very freeing experience.
My H recently told me (as in told me last week) that he was so filled with guilt for the way he handled things, the way he left me, his failure to communicate what he was plotting for months and months and his affair that he simply had to lash out at me every chance he got. And he did this for over a year. Then I just cut him out of my life because I was tired of being his verbal punching bag because he could not own his own issues.
He also tried to talk to me about his new R (well, not so new as it has been going on for 1.5 yrs although he claims it is not serious but I dont believe him) but I wont listen to a word about it. He did manage to sneak in how guilty he felt when the R started and I nipped that conversation in the bud. But, starting an R while you are still married and loaded w/guilt, well, OW must be a real gem.
My H has given me the line that he has tried to "work with me" on a settlement for over a year. I finally had to explain to him when you bomb drop, have an affair, walk away and behave how you have for the past year you have bypassed any opportunity to "work with me". We are no longer a team and that was clearly established when you walked away and engaged with another woman while still married to me, while still LIVING with me. Of course he didnt like that one bit but who cares.
He can moan and cry about money and unhappiness and how things arent his fault and how I should have read his hints until he keels over. I *will* do legally what I have to do for me to be sure I have what I need for the present and the future. I will do so in a civil fashion but I wont bend and I certainly wont "team up" with somebody that chose to leave and have an affair.
My H and I are civil and when he tries to get more friendly I just end the e-mail. He actually said he is mad because he doesnt get the respones he wants from me and I dont tell him everything like I used to. Again, walk away, have affair = no team.
You need to do what you need to do for you and your kids. Being friendly is great, especially because you do have children with this man, but it seems you have some expectations that he will change. IMO a WAS that has been away for 6 months or a year or two that has done ZERO to change or even attempt to heal the situation in some way has no intentions to. Its my opinion, some may feel differently.
I might considering requesting a meeting with him and keeping it very professional and business like. Make a debt plan that would show several scenarios (A) working together (B) separating (C) divorce or whatever other options you have available to you. Let him know that you need some stability and direction and give him some time to think it over. If he is unwilling to participate in *something* then take matters in your own hands so you and your kids can have the life you deserve.
Sorry if this is harsh but my H jerked me around with money for over a year despite a temp. agreement we had in place and blew through close to 20K of our savings acct. in one summer on partying, golf, vacations, shopping, the casino and his GF. We lived for 13 yrs debt free other than a car note and now we are in debt. So, a solution must be made and I will find the solution most comfortable for me. It sounds cruel but its how these things go when WAS think there wont be consequences (financial, emotional, long term damage to any sort of R).
Now, I did not get to this point overnight but eventually you will reach your point of utter saturation and when you do, you will take action even if its really hard to do. Eventually though enough is enough.
Too bad if he thinks you are controlling. I find it awfully controlling on his part that he can call you when he is bored enough or available for a bit and think you will drop everything to run out and be with him. I find it awfully controlling that he still thinks he can have sex with you when he is around then leave, go to his other life and continue to do so. But you can control that as well.
Not responding in an emotional way is *very* tough. But he expects you to respond that way so dont do it around him - it will change the dynamic. The person that cares least about the R controls it and all WAS know that.
Thanks CG- I get what you're saying.
Today, my housekeeper came (yes she still comes occasionally, he would blow the money some other way if she didn't though I am prepared to live without it soon).
Anyway, this lovely woman took it on herself to take most of H's clothes and shoes and move them out of my closet or tucked away so that I don't have to see his things every time I go in there. Also, my things are nice and organized and neat and it felt so good I cried. Not because I'm that into my clothes but because it was a tiny step toward me having my own space and my own life. Bittersweet but good.
And CG, I am taking in your post and will read it again.
Good to take in CG's post b/c it largely applies. Your h, blaming you and trying to suck in your dad so your h can drown him too (in addition to you and the kids) is scary.
He has not grown or improved A/K. He hasn't! Don't go down the drain with him, save yourself and the kids while you still can AND DON'T settle for less alimony than you are worth. And remember that IF he does make more money down the road, the kids are entitled to increased child support. So don't worry that you are jumping off the gravy train right before he makes real money. ON the contrary, if he were to make real money and get some more security, I have no doubt he'd divorce you for someone else. I am sorry to say that but I cannot imagine someone with his ego feeling CLOSER to you when he feels all puffed up. He calls you now when he needs his spirits lifted. If he didn't need that, he'd be calling OW all the time. I know that hurts and I could be wrong. I really could be. But for some reason, I feel pretty sure about someone I don't really know. Just mho.
Hope the meeting with the c goes well and we are all rooting for you to be happy. Soon, and at peace.
Good luck
j-
25- the thing with my dad really got to me and I let H know that tonight, my dad has his own reputation and is a stand up guy, really. He has done the right thing by NOT enabling us and giving us money he knows would be pissed away on BS. Perhaps not the right thing to do to get into it but it sure illuminated why I wanted out of this marriage before and how we differ philosophically. It was also more about what other people think and it makes me sick.
This was an argument that we had throughout the years. That if we lived within our means and had a budget and then needed help, I would ask for it. Otherwise, our finances are our responsibility.
Also today, he wanted to come by. I told him only after a certain time (so we would not be here). He guilted and acted like I was keeping him from his kids. I told him we were busy and getting out of the house would be too hard with him stopping by in the middle. I explained that if he wants more time he can schedule it. Hard stuff but I stuck to my guns...yes, separating is hard...duh.
Maybe the interaction helps me remember what his faults were. I have been in such a fog, feeling so responsible, so guilty because of course there were things I did or didn't do that I regret...but, it actually helps to have a rehash of an old spat to refresh my memory.
Tomorrow...hopefully more clarity. Sigh...
AAK,
Hang in there. Sounds like you are doing the right thing.
I have been following your thread. You deserve better.
AAK,
Hang in there. Sounds like you are doing the right thing.
I have been following your thread. You deserve better.
Thank you. I am so into personal responsibility and self-examination that it is hard for me to get into I "deserve better"...
Somehow I imagine people are saying the same thing to him. I hope that I am not villainizing him to assuage my only feelings of culpability...you know? I want to learn and grow from this and head out on a different path, not fall into some victim mode. I think that is part of why I have been so gun-shy, I don't want to take action while in the muck but maybe taking action will get me out of the muck and then I can make sense of it.
I am so appreciative that I have this place.
I'm not suggesting you rush into anything. You will know when you are ready for that.
Own up to your half of the reason for the situation (we are all half the reason), but there is another half out there that is NOT your fault.
I see you taking a lot (too much?) of the blame for this. I also sense you are having a hard time being nice to yourself (b/c of that?). It's easy to become the victim - and I would not blame you for it in your situation. That said, being teh victim doesn't hold anything good for you.
You can rise above this. It won't be easy, but you can do it. Just go easy on yourself.
A&K,
I think you are doing much better than you think you are doing... My guess is a lot of us see it that way; it's hard not to be hard on yourself when the WAS is taking on no responsibility at all. I wrote letters to my kids from the future quite some time ago and shared them with my brother and sister. Independently, they each said to me: "Why are you carrying all of the guilt?". And it occurred to me that there is guilt to be felt because our failures to each other meant we had failed our kids (@Smiley said something similar one time, only much better) BUT W carried NO guilt; as a result, I think I carried that much more although from the outside looking in, as in your situation, any objective third party would say if anything, I/you should bear at MOST 50% of the blame given the trangressions of our WAS. So, I like what @GIMA is saying, own up to your half of the situation, but don't accept even that much of the blame. And I'm starting to see in your H what I finally just realized about W... They each have NO clue and can't see beyond their own shadows...
It will become much easier on you as you shed some of the blame you feel; realize it ISN'T you... I also think that will start to pave the path to detachment...
-A
Thanks. I also see that it is malarky when we have shown that we can get along, we are still sexually attracted and we have these beautiful kids. It is possible.
I do however relate to his feeling of this being broken and unfixable and wanting to throw it all away and start over. I have had those feelings. I just don't have the bun buttering he has or the buffers. I know what we are in for and in particular, our little ones.
I do want to add that asserting that the WAS has no guilt or has no clue is a big dose of mind-reading. Much of their crazy behavior can be attributed to the guilt they are feeling. I am not saying that we know one way or the other, just saying that just because they spout out blame and vitriol doesn't mean they don't know somewhere that they are f*cked.
Oh and also, it would help if he would refrain from texting me this cr*p. The one thing I deserve to get out of being separated is not having to be subjected to his opinion or those of his "friends." Believe me, I spare him my drama and pain and the opinion of those around me UNLESS he opens up that dialog. Regardless it is unhealthy and mildly abusive for both of us.
I can ignore them, but preferably I will find a way to communicate that he needs to stop. Perhaps if we make it into counseling or even as a stipulation.
Okay, then let me refine... Carrying no guilt might be better described as appearing to do the best they can to shed all guilt and project it upon someone else...
Does that move it from mind-reading to a more descriptive place?
Okay, then let me refine... Carrying no guilt might be better described as appearing to do the best they can to shed all guilt and project it upon someone else...
Does that move it from mind-reading to a more descriptive place?
Absolutely and I agree.
I do want to add that asserting that the WAS has no guilt or has no clue is a big dose of mind-reading. Much of their crazy behavior can be attributed to the guilt they are feeling. I am not saying that we know one way or the other, just saying that just because they spout out blame and vitriol doesn't mean they don't know somewhere that they are f*cked.
Yes, but, per prior, is knowing somewhere that they are f*cked necessarily a function of guilt, or self-preservation so that they won't feel guilty later? After all, if they can be so lucky as to have someone else accept that blame, they can absolve themselves of it. I know all the while W was carrying on her affair, she may have felt "guilty" about it, but she certainly didn't do anything to dissuade me from thinking the ILYBINILWY was ALL my fault(if anything she would remind me of all of my foibles) ... Yes, it's a rhetorical question, I know... but, at least in my sitch, there appeared to be an overt attempt to shed/fight off any pangs of guilt...
there appeared to be an overt attempt to shed/fight off any pangs of guilt...
Well, I wish all the cheaters luck with that...they'll need it.
...preferably I will find a way to communicate that he needs to stop. Perhaps if we make it into counseling or even as a stipulation.
IMO, you're better off coming up with a stipulated plan that works for you outside of counseling so that you can, as Puppy and Coach like to say, OWN it... It's easy for me to say now, because I made that mistake; I don't think you can rely upon a "negotiated" communication plan worked on with a counselor. At this point, and it's much easier said than done, figure out some ground rules for this now and set it as a boundary.
there appeared to be an overt attempt to shed/fight off any pangs of guilt...
Well, I wish all the cheaters luck with that...they'll need it.
The cheating aside, as my IC likes to say, there will be a right side and a wrong side of history. Sooner or later others, and one's children, will figure it out and that's when the cheater is f*cked.
The only thing I can do is stop giving a sh*t what he says.
It helps just thinking about the mind games (per your last post about your W). My H left once before, blamed it all on me, promised there was no one else...then it came out that there was someone else who he had met prior to leaving (so he left to cheat basically). He tried "but we were separated" and eventually came the mea culpas and the apologies and the "what was I thinking?" and the "I was such an a**hole" and blah blah blah. And now, here we are 6 years later. Mind you our R was hellish in many ways but the behavior that has emerged this time is exactly the same as last time (and me, the brain surgeon falls for it AGAIN).
I don't know why I am listening to any of this sh*t. I suppose I want to gain some insight about myself but by now, he should have little to do with that. He isn't teaching me anything constructive. And, the one thing I want to change most about myself is my reactivity so here's the ultimate opportunity. Maybe I couldn't do it within the M because it was too challenging but I could possibly grow exponentially by doing it now.
Anyhoo, what were we talking about?
Anyhoo, what were we talking about?
LOL... I was just wondering the same thing... It's already tomorrow here and I gotta get me some sleep...
Hey, if you have a chance, check out H
ow Can I Get Through to You, by Terrence Real...
In it he talks about:
• Listening “Relationally” - moving past right and wrong toward repair
• Negotiating: learning to stand firm and mean it
• Developing “Relational Integrity” – making a commitment to stay moderate and smart even when your partner behaves like a jerk.
Awesome, thanks!! Sounds perfect.
Sweet dreams.
H called last night to express that he thinks we should stop the texting which I enthusiastically agreed to. We talked a bit and then I got off the phone. It felt healthy but sad because we are both finally realizing that this is not working.
The healthy and sad feeling is one I can relate to. BUT there is a positive in your post... the both of you realized what you were doing was not working and when you continue to do something that does not work nothing can change. Now, maybe with some space you both can find something that *does* work. It wont happen overnight but when you take away what doesnt work, you leave lots of room open to find things that *do* work because you arent so consumed with feeling bad about what is not working. (sorry, that was wordy and hopefully made sense)
My H and I, after a 1.5 yr separation, are still trying to see what doesnt work with our communication and what does work. Its not a quick thing to identify. Its really in the past few weeks that I have been noticing that he has been using "I" statements rather than just starting off w/blaming me for HIS feelings. So, the other day I simply said I appreciated how much effort he was putting into using "I" statements and it helped us a great deal to communicate better. I was STUNNED when he said that he noticed I used "I" statements and had mentioned it to him before so he thought he would give it a try. So, he *is* trying and for that I felt I had to show my appreciation because it is working and eliminated something that was not working.
In my head this post makes perfect sense, I hope it doesnt read all garbled and confusing. And hey, I am proud of you!
Oh, I totally get it. It is sad to me that we will have to work on this R so diligently to NOT be together but I cannot control that.
Well, yes, you will have to work hard but it doesnt mean you wont be together. You just havent yet defined *how* you will be together (as co-parents, friends, a married couple).
I know it might not feel this way now but defining what is not working and both of you agreeing to change it is huge.
Some things we can control and some things we cannot. And there is nothing wrong with being sad but dont let it control you. Feel it in all the ways you need to then take another step.
Lately I have been thinking about all the ways I can empower myself. I actually made a list (us Type A's like lists, lol!). Just a suggestion but I came up with some ideas that made me feel powerful as a woman just for thinking of them!
The other day I had to carry four HUGE bags of stuff to my car (I dont have a driveway and had to park 3 blocks away). The bags were so heavy. I cursed my H up and down because he was not there to haul the stuff. But I did it - because I am a strong woman and I can survive just fine (even while hauling bags but I am considering purchasing a mule, lol). We are not shrinking flowers - we are strong. I know you are, I can just feel it!
Well, C session was interesting. I think he will be helpful. He met with H a few times early on after the bomb. I was surprised that he said he had my H pegged in about 5 minutes. H hasn't seen him in a few months.
It was validating in one way to hear that he saw H's narcissism and saw him as a "dangerous" person emotionally. Kind of feeds my fear a little but at least I know I'm not crazy.
He wants to help me become un-enmeshed so I can see more clearly. And he also thinks that H needs enablers so he finds them.
I see my role in this. I also see that I need to be gentle with myself and not beat myself up for struggling to find a path out of this dynamic.
I don't feel validated to the extent that I will rest on my laurels, I guess I just feel relieved to have someone who sees the complexity of the situation and the anxiety I have with the kids in the middle.
I think the answers will have to come from me but I really need support to keep my perspective and follow through.
Well, C session was interesting. I think he will be helpful. He met with H a few times early on after the bomb. I was surprised that he said he had my H pegged in about 5 minutes. H hasn't seen him in a few months.
It was validating in one way to hear that he saw H's narcissism and saw him as a "dangerous" person emotionally. Kind of feeds my fear a little but at least I know I'm not crazy.
He wants to help me become un-enmeshed so I can see more clearly. And he also thinks that H needs enablers so he finds them.
I see my role in this. I also see that I need to be gentle with myself and not beat myself up for struggling to find a path out of this dynamic.
I don't feel validated to the extent that I will rest on my laurels, I guess I just feel relieved to have someone who sees the complexity of the situation and the anxiety I have with the kids in the middle.
I think the answers will have to come from me but I really need support to keep my perspective and follow through.
Good job. You are worth it.
Cheers
Coach
Amen to coach and your c's comments.
A lot of earlier posts from yesterday dealt WAY too much, imho, with what the hell is going on with your h, or someone' else's, and whether he'll feel guilt later or does now and is projecting it. BLAH BLAH BLAH!
For the 456th time, this is now, ALL about you and your kids. Your h is the cause of some pain and strife in your life. Yes. But we already know that AND we know we have no control over what he feels or says or thinks or projects and soooo much energy keeps getting diverted back into a totally fruitless discussion.
EVEN if you could read his mind, you could not change it.
Also, we are not always "half" the reason. Though we play a role in the problems of our marriage, and though it takes two people to make a m work, sometimes it really does just take ONE to end it. Besides, you already owned and apologized for your role in the problems and problems being worked on, are no longer problems. If anything, your h has gotten more self absorbed and certainly has not come home. He has had the time to "make this right" and he chose not to. Instead, his course has persisted and he is still not home. And he isn't "getting it" and NOW that he can live for free somewhere else and doesn't have to "
borrow" money from YOUR father... he feels even better about himself (I don't care AT ALL if that is "real", or a sham for his deep insecurities, b/c what he does is all that counts now...actions...the way he treats you...is all that matters...no more time for mind reading or guessing or wondering-
blah blah blah x 70987!!)
But he says all is well now, b/c now he can mooch off some semi-celeb's home and stay there instead of living with you and the children HE is the father of.
"Gee, Wow, Great job H!! I sense SO MUCH GROWTH THERE! THANKS for HELPING OUT!!"
A/K, I'm glad you are seeing a good c and I know you are ripe for using the tools he'll give you. Thank GOD! He may be just what you need now. As for not texting anymore...hope it works for a whole week. (Sorry but yes, I am smirking, but at him!)
You do of course have the option of simply
not reading the texts if he doesn't have the kids. Tell him to type out "911" if it's an emergency and
if it is not an emergency, don't read it. If he misuses the "911" line, don't ever answer again
unless he has the kids with him. What message does he have to get thru to you right then and there that he cannot pick up a phone for? And if he's goofy on the phone, tell him to call when he's ready for an adult conversation and hang up. If he tells you that you lack a sense of humor, tell him he doesn't know the difference between humor and cruelty, that he lacks the insight that usually comes by age 12. And if he tells you that you are a purple lesbian who is color blind or that HE is the leader of the free world and a musical genius....do you see that you spend too much giving a s*** what he says? Who cares? Laugh off his weird commentary and tell him THAT IS FUNNY! (to PROVE how much of a sense of humor you have) and hang up! No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to listen to the crazy narcissist you married who lives somewhere else,
again...
I think the texting will be a boundary
you will have to set and enforce or the mind f*** will continue.
You can stop them. I have a feeling he won't stop them. Not on his own.
Good luck, and btw,
any thoughts about GAL for you? And have you tried to visualize the positive possibilities of being single, or truly free of him, yet? One would be a lessening of the mind f*** AND maybe even the cessation of them. I think you'll find OM someday. And you'll have the tools for spotting someone with a smart heart and mind, and guess what?
THEN You might even get and keep that family dream you have. Ever wonder about the possibility that this whole crazy time, if it ends the M, might be a gift in the long run?
A blessing well disguised, but a blessing nonetheless? God knows my older sister is so much happier now than she would have been if her h had come home, again. Like your h, he cheated at least twice on her and claimed "it didn't really count b/c blah blah blah" and whatever. So now she is remarried, and in a pretty normal M with a guy who thinks she's beautiful and great, not "aging or getting plump". He Does things for her without her asking, and NEVER rolls his eyes at her requests, or acts as if she has made a huge demand on him when the car has a flat tire. He just rushes to help and changes the tire, and asks if she's okay, etc. Her first h would have cursed the whole way about the inconvenience, or wondered why HIS work was interrupted....
maybe not to her face, but you'd KNOW HE had been inconvenienced....and she'd be nervous calling for help. There was always the question of what mood her h would have when he came home and THAT decided the happiness level in the family of 5 people. That's so unfair and unhealthy.
Yes He broke her heart leaving her with 3 kids, but he also freed her. Two years later she met OM and now OM is her 2nd h.
And she's happier. In her case, her exh DID wake up but that does NOT matter. What matters is ONLY that SHE is happier.
Spend NO time on whether your h will get it, wake up and change or come back or if he does, whether his changes are real or will last. That is a waste of time. If any of that happens you can address it then but for the forseeable future I would make ALL of my energy and focus be on making me and my kids happier and more secure. That cannot be done constantly looking over your shoulders and wondering what it will take to get thru to him. NO BOOK has that answer. I'm sorry.
Your h will listen to you IF AND WHEN HE FEELS LIKE IT...and he doesn't and he hasn't and this is not the first time he has broken his vows or your heart. SO, the question ONLY YOU can answer is, will it be the last time?
Be strong. You can do this. You have to.xoxo
j-
Well, I'm just going to let out how f*cking angry I am right now and it is something I will have to work on.
H called very excited about having worked out a settlement with a law firm (regarding one of his credit cards)...he wanted to know if I would ask around (my parents) for help paying it!!!!!!!!! The health insurance hasn't been paid, nor my car payment and I have credit card companies calling me incessantly and he wants me to ask my parents to pay off his debt???????????????? I f*cking lost it on all fronts. Yes, everyone, I lost it. Sorry, I suck.
He wanted me to give him props for shmoozing a settlement out of them (sure he used his heart-wrenching impending D)...
What am I most angry about? Aside from the part about my parents; that for how many frickin years have I been trying to get him on board with handling this??? I told him that I believe my parents would have preferred that he thought about handling this BEFORE leaving their daughter and grandchildren!!! He said he couldn't have done it without leaving (you know, because it was me that was making him overspend on himself!!!)....I hate it. I hate that I loved him so much and tried so frickin hard for so long and that he makes EVERYTHING negative about me and our M. It pains me in a way I can't describe.
I did things I so regret in our M. I was neurotic and controlling, reactive and moody in many ways. Toward the end, I was so much like some of the Ws in Thinker's and Stuck's sitches. I read their threads and I think what the hell was wrong with ME???
But, I guess I didn't have an H who was willing to step up like they are. Man what I would give...anyway...
As for my GAL, I have wonderful opportunities presenting themselves. Unfortunately none will likely generate much income right away but they are writing opportunities and I am so excited. I also have some new friends and some older ones reconnecting and I feel enthusiastic about that. I am still exercising and am waiting for assignment on some volunteer work and have been thinking about checking out a Buddhist temple in the area.
My mind however just swirls with this and all of the variables, money, kids, emotions etc.
There are peaceful moments, there are moments I see the beauty of being D from H. And still, I can't really envision ever being rid of him unless he dies unexpectedly (not wishing, just saying that is really how I feel).
How is it that I can feel responsible for turning him into this beast?
Aaaaargh. Can someone please give me permission to go on facebook and comment on Hs page??? Anyone????
25- I'm here. I'm reading. I'm paying attention. I must tell you. People have to grow and feel it under their own skin to "get it."
Just as the WAS are so hard to get through to, some of us have to wiggle our way out of some nasty foggy insidious mindf*ckery to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
For what it is worth, it helps to have you back on my thread.
AAK - No advice, just friendly support!
Thanks MB. I appreciate it.
A/K,
(Sigh)
Be grateful for the clarity you feel now. It's a gift. Seriously.
His request for money from your parents, again, is um...ahem, "remarkable"...(how's that for a euphemism?)
He sure isn't "getting it" is he? No I guess he's not getting it. So you have to.
For the recrod, let's discuss the GAL. Can any of it lead to moolah$$ down the road? Go after the jobs that are most likely to lead to something like that, first. It's not "selling out" it's being grown up and not giving up your dream at all. Just arrange the order of pursuing which dream first, etc. And you would feel so much better I think, if you knew you could
support yourself. I KNOW YOU WOULD. We both know that financial insecurity is a HUGE part of your m's problems AND your fear of getting a div. Interesting bind you find yourself in but I'm telling you there are ways out.
What does your cousin the div L say about how you'll do financially? Compare how "fine" you feel now...not.
And don't forget the "ticking time bomb" analogy to your h's approach to money, which was earlier posted. It's a good analogy. Your h might be clueless about how it feels to you OR more likely, he just doesn't care much about it. I am ALMOST amused at how proud he was of his "success" in decreasing the payment amount AND tells you this as if you should praise him and then asks you for money from your parents!! Yikes!
And your h will not become financially savvy, he doesn't fit that profile.
Financially speaking, he acts selfish and sloppy and this is not new behavior, is it? You have never approached money the same way and perhaps some of your controlling attitude was b/c he lacked any control. I mean if we're into the blame game, you can give him some of that too.
I'm big on staying in the moment A/K. You made mistakes in the past and you won't make the same ones again, correct? Okay let's assume so, and move on...so when your h brings up past stuff, tell him to stay on track and solve AN issue or ONE problem like whatever you are then discussing. He hurls out old stuff b/c he knows that as of today, he's the problem. NOT YOU. So keep that in mind when you go down the "blame myself for his crap" mode and shut off that inner critic. It's not helping.
You may need to file for div, and later on see how the bills go and whether you need to file for bkrutcy, OR if your parents can help you then? I mean if you are going to ever borrow from them, I'd say don't do it til he's out of the picture. Geez,
why should HE benefit? If you div, you will need to list the debts and assets and that means all of them. Maybe your cousin knows more and he surely knows your h and I don't. But ask him about what to do financially speaking, with the assumption you do NOT STAY married. I say that so you can visualize some financial stability.
As for the anger...yi yi yi. I recall our electricity almost getting cut off when the fires were near and we were packing the car for evacuation...and I called h "up the road" by 300 miles, and he asked if that would hurt his credit rating and I asked him if he was kidding. Silence...but in our case, I know for a fact that people in his family and our circles did tell him he was being selfish. And He was embarrassed as this was a first time thing. I'll give my h credit for always taking care of our money--I think he's too cheap/thrifty and I am the one who manages investments, but he has not ever wasted money on himself. Usually takes his shoes in for repair, rather than buying a new pair, literally. (I didn't even know you could get shoes fixed til I met my h). So when the bill wasn't paid I knew something was really weird with h. But I took over paying the bills and thanked him for paying them all these years. That was a big 180' for me. We do struggle with different approaches & money can stress us too. A lot of couples are like that.
Thing is, you are not making it now. You are getting behind and your h isn't dealing with it - b/c you are. (I'd want to switch phone numbers if I were you.) Can you get some work, without hurting yourself vis a vis the div? I know you are not sure yet but let's hypothesize for just a minute...let's say you know you are getting ready for the possibility of a div. If you were to suddenly get a great paying job, even though you were still on "newbie probation", that could hurt you financially -in the div, b/c if your h says "Oh she makes almost as much so I'll only have to pay 'x' now"...that could hurt you.
So balance it all out and get the jobs you can writing, and hope they lead to paying work down the road when he's out of the picture. You'll meet new people and that leads to good things. Imagine how it would be to get a set amount due from him with a divorce decree and if he has some wages garnished to pay off the debts-it's NOT your problem and you won't be getting calls from creditors anymore. How nice would that be?
Try hard to imagine the good things that you know would come out of being free from him; the constant financial concerns, dealing with the idiotic requests for parental loans, the texts that trigger, the "stop by whenever" moments, the sexual "jokes", the bragging, the whining, the sudden needy calls for you to lift up his ego, the grandiose nature of his "plans", the OW, the blame game he plays - no matter how obvious it is that it an issue is clearly on him, and and and and...
Blaming you for spending too much...so, does this mean he isn't doing that anymore? How would you know? If he is still spending too much, how's that your responsibility? NEVER MIND we don't want to know!! This is an example of engaging in his blame game and we have to remember NOT to care about his delusions and the whole 'you are a purple lesbian' claims he can make if he wants. His data isn't real so it doesn't matter.
You are at the point of awakening. You see the negatives of the M to him all over and around you, and you are starting to think there might be a positive just by removing the negatives and that's true. If nothing else, some peace. And down deep, you know there is more out there for you. Good things await.
Your anger is totally reasonable but it can consume you. You'll need to learn ways of not letting it. Have you tried the book "Return to Love" by Marianne Williamson? There is also a new book called "Advancing Your Spirit" by her and Wayne Dyer which I found very interesting, particularly her sections. Helpful and relevant to this time in your life and how productive it can be now that you won't care so much about what someone thinks of you or your course of action.
You will need to find ways of letting go of the anger. But a lot will improve if you get free of him. Sorry to say this but I just don't see a choice here. Gotta end on that note for now. Sorry. But most of the advice you are getting deals with either you doing this, moving on, OR you somehow trying a new technique for "reaching" him. I don't understand wasting more time trying to "reach" a man who left you and the kids months ago and contacts you whenever HE feels like it and OR wants money
from your family or (see things that will improve, in my list above) says one of those things that drive us all crazy to read.
So I am trying to prepare you for another route, a route to peace and growth for YOU and the kids...
((( j )))
PS Sorry this is so long!
PS Sorry this is so long!
What??? Don't you know for an LBS, the longer the better???
Honestly 25, I am absolutely open and ready to take a good paying job. I'd do it in a heart beat. I would love to be self-sufficient. The only precedent I don't want to set is "you're a
waitress, alright, seems to be working for you." IYKWIM.
I think H is tightening up his spending (I have his bank statements) and he is starting to sell things (OW must be very attractive, he's so motivated)...H is just really awesome at mooching and he is getting by nicely thus far.
Of course, H says he sees other perspectives, he sees all sides. The "people" around him are just asking, you know?
Anyway, I'm getting you. I hate to have to cast such a negative light on the M in order to work up the gumption to follow through. It is and may always be malarky to me. There was so much good and a lot of bad too. If we wanted to make it the priority and grow ourselves, we would. I don't know why I always feel the need to qualify but I just can't delude myself.
I want to soften as a person in general. But for now, I have to be so strong.
Maybe my new mantra should be "Speak softly but carry a big stick."
Oh, and as for Marianne Williamson, I'm still working on "The Gift of Change." But if you and I ever meet IRL one day, I've got a funny tidbit for you.
One more thing. I will absolutely ask my parents for help if and when we have divorced and/or done everything in our power to manage our own problems. That has always been my stance, that it is a last resort.
AAK,
So much going on for you right now. Been following. I can hear you getting stronger.
Hang in,
TD
Thanks! I hope you're doing alright.
It's not that you are are casting the M in a negative light. Some "facts is facts"...For instance, he's gone, he doesn't live at home, his financial plans suck, or don't exist except borrowing from YOUR folks, he lives well himself, and oh, he is with OW.
And he blames you for bringing any "unpleasantness" up b/c evidently this living sitch should be...what?? "Fine" -with you? Does he know that there are NO women in this nation who think this sitch is just "fine"? Does he know that slavish women in the Middle East would not find this arrangement "fine"? (FYI that's literally true come to think of it.) He's being what used to be called a "scoundrel" or a "Cad" and brothers or fathers used to have them beat up for this. Or worse. Publications and ruination...etc.
So, no, you are not "casting" him or the sitch in a bad light. I didn't mention his other behaviors, just said some facts. And they are the ugly truth.
It really sucks to see it in writing some times and I know this from experience but it is what clicked for me, and then I changed. And so did "it" and so far that has been a good thing. It's the truth - so it has to be faced at some point. Why not now? LIfe is so short.
((( j )))
I want to point something out. I could be way off base, but it is something I see. Why in the world are you expecting your husband to change and be responsible? You are expecting him to care about something he has never had to deal with (your finances). Then you talk about your parents possibly bailing you out. From a soon to be single mom of 3 who put herself through nursing school while working fulltime at Wal-Mart, get a job and take control of the finances that you are giving your irresponsible spouse control over. You can't control anyone but yourself, your actions, and your reactions. BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE! Stop complaining about what he isn't doing and you DO something!!
One of my fave expressions, Put on your big girl panties and deal with it!!! You can do this! You just have to believe in yourself and want it bad enough.
A/K,
what she said...amen. Oh, And...you CAN do this.
((( j )))
I want to point something out. I could be way off base, but it is something I see. Why in the world are you expecting your husband to change and be responsible? You are expecting him to care about something he has never had to deal with (your finances). Then you talk about your parents possibly bailing you out. From a soon to be single mom of 3 who put herself through nursing school while working fulltime at Wal-Mart, get a job and take control of the finances that you are giving your irresponsible spouse control over. You can't control anyone but yourself, your actions, and your reactions. BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE! Stop complaining about what he isn't doing and you DO something!!
One of my fave expressions, Put on your big girl panties and deal with it!!! You can do this! You just have to believe in yourself and want it bad enough.
I hear you and believe me I have had moments of wanting to just move into a tiny place and do ANYTHING to make my own money.
But, IF I can get out of this with some money and IF my parents can help just to get over the hump (if necessary) of moving etc so that we can have some degree of comfort and a smoother transition for the boys, I will take it. I have a dear friend who D'd her H, her parents did help her with the transition and she has since become self-sufficient and works her butt off. I do not need to make this worse than it is.
And, I have to assume you were a bit younger when you forayed into single motherhood, my point being that at 37, IF I can cultivate something a little more fulfilling, seeing as I spent 14 years helping H and being about him, I would like to. I waited tables for years in my youth and I will do what I have to but IF I can get on more stable ground I would like to.
Putting on my big girl panties has to happen for sure. I don't think I have to go get a job at Walmart to qualify as doing that.
BTW- I admire you for your perseverance and, of course, when it comes to my kids, I will do whatever I have to do.
Sometimes something stable happens when you do start at the bottom so dont rule out possibilities.
My moms friend went through a divorce that was so foul, disgusting, horrific and every other awful word you can think of. It was one of the most horrifying divorces I have ever heard of.
She was left broke and took a job as a housekeeper at a national hotel chain. Hardly an ideal position but she did what she had to do. A few months later she was promoted to head housekeeper. A year later she was made head of the entire housekeeping department and all of a sudden had an office and was the boss. A few years later she was promoted to a regional position of housekeeping managing several hotels. Not bad for somebody who started off a few years earlier cleaning rooms.
There might be some golden opportunity that sounds less than ideal but you can make it *very* ideal. Just my 2 cents.
A/K,
You are again projecting the worst case scenario and not imagining other possibilities. That is fear based choice making and so far, it has paralyzed you. Try something new and make your imaging a reality. I'm not saying "Read 'THE SECRET' and all will be well" but there is some truth to it. You know, project a positive image of what you would like to have in your life that you can create that with a good goal in mind. Work toward that and not away from the fears.
((( j )))
25, I must have miscommunicated. If anything, I think I set the bar too high. I am hoping that the projects I am putting my energy into will garner enough income to keep me from having to go the "anything" route. I am very excited about them. It is a bit of a game of chicken as to whether I can make something happen in time to be on my own.
And, I did watch The Secret and within reason I see the possibilities. Truth be told, the clearer I get as to what I am capable of and interested in, the more opportunities are trickling in. Nothing too stable yet but I am putting it out there and hoping that a PMA and focusing on what I want will pay off.
I also understand that sometimes you've got to do what you gotta do.
25, I must have miscommunicated. If anything, I think I set the bar too high. I am hoping that the projects I am putting my energy into will garner enough income to keep me from having to go the "anything" route. I am very excited about them. It is a bit of a game of chicken as to whether I can make something happen in time to be on my own.
And, I did watch The Secret and within reason I see the possibilities.
BTW I'm not exactly convinced that all it takes is positive imaging of course. (I thought the book and concept were not very novel and could not believe that it was received as if some profound concept had just been discovered...anyhow....)
Truth be told, the clearer I get as to what I am capable of and interested in, the more opportunities are trickling in. Nothing too stable yet but I am putting it out there and hoping that a PMA and focusing on what I want will pay off.
I also understand that sometimes you've got to do what you gotta do.
Amen to that. Been there, done that. Worst job I ever had was right after finishing college, so that was a super nice 'reward'...not...And some of my friends in law school had very dreary jobs but as you say, "you do what you gotta do". My best friend in law school who made the most money was a waiter, btw. Whatever. I know that if my kids need food, there's no legal job I would not take. I'm not too proud for that if it's my kids mouths that need food.
But you are nowhere near that spot are you? Aren't we just discussing some serious downsizing but not lowering of a safety standard? (I'm not minimizing the emotional part, but for a minute just focusing on the logistics).
You need to live in a place that has good enough schools, which usually goes along with relatively safe places and neighborhoods. It has to be affordable, and the one thing good about this recession is that prices are lower now. Keep it simple A/K. You don't have to have your whole life planned out by tuesday at 4 pm, in order to move forward. KWIM? I think you are ripe for growth and movement and you are really getting there.
Try hard not to give in to the periodic panic attacks we all have. I had a woman doctor client who told me she was afraid of being on her own despite a terrible M with violence. She said she feared being on her own b/c maybe she'd "end up on welfare" and I was baffled. She had a part time job with a low 6 figure income...(She stayed at home with the kids half time, but stayed current in her field, obviously). It just reminded me of how much fear can play in our lives. She had the means for more than mere survival, but was literally terrified. Child care and the logistics, being alone, etc. really were paralyzing her. IT happens to all of us. You just have to move forward despite the fears. Keep it real and face what is
realistically the worst case scenario and you may find that it is actually not so terrible. I figured at one point if I ended up living with a sister in her basement, I could survive that too. You can too. You have parents who are available if necessary. And we're here for you.
As others have said elsewhere, you really will be alright no matter what.
((( j )))
BTW I'm not exactly convinced that all it takes is positive imaging of course. (I thought the book and concept were not very novel and could not believe that it was received as if some profound concept had just been discovered...anyhow....)
Ya, I'm with you. That is why I try to find a realistic balance and if I have to supplement my income I will. But you are right that I am lucky enough to think bigger and give it a little time.
Ultimately, there may be more freedom in cutting ties even if I have to work a dreary job for a while. I'm just sorting it out.
The Secret is funny because it sort of added to rich people's entitlement and giving them more of a superiority complex about how they had manifested all of that wealth and impeded their abilities to empathize with others (as if that wasn't already a problem). Plus, for those of us struggling on any financial level, it can really create inferiority complexes...I mean, "why can't I just believe harder and manifest more???"
To me you set your intentions and you work your a** of to make it a reality, not just sit around visualizing.
Everything in perspective right?
I can't remember that quote that I think Coach used about facing the facts of your circumstances while still having hope...aargh, what was it???
In a business book by James C. Collins called Good to Great, Collins writes about a conversation he had with Stockdale regarding his coping strategy during his period in the Vietnamese POW camp.[3]
"I never lost faith in the end of the story, I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade."[4]
When Collins asked who didn't make it out, Stockdale replied:
"Oh, that’s easy, the optimists. Oh, they were the ones who said, 'We're going to be out by Christmas.' And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they'd say, 'We're going to be out by Easter.' And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart."[4]
Stockdale then added:
"This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”[4]
Witnessing this philosophy of duality, Collins went on to describe it as the Stockdale Paradox.
I LOVE THAT QUOTE AND PRINCIPLE.
Coach- I knew you'd come through!!
"Good to Great" is a truly good book with profound implications for business and guess what else? Life...yeah, I read that for my last job and did find it insightful and valuable and good for a whole lot of things...
Carry on A/K, I know you are getting somewhere. I can feel it.
j-
I know you are getting somewhere. I can feel it.
That is just awesome.
This is moving along. H will be moving into his own place.
I must confess we had a long conversation last night and I mean loooong. And, so much was said, I can't even summarize accept to say that he is going. At the same time, he kept bringing up how it would be so embarrassing if he came back and I would never forgive him or would I be able to and my family and his friends etc. I addressed it pretty swiftly; basically anyone and everyone I know would like to see us get back together IF we could have a happy healthy marriage. There were too many questions and too much explored for me to think he is not wavering. But, he is still going.
My focus in the conversation was our current R and not us getting back together and I realize now that when we talk about what kind of R we want here on DB.com (as the LBS) it feels so absurd in the beginning. Me? Have demands? When I've been left behind? What's the point? But, I see in dealing with him all of these months apart that whether friendship or M or NC, I have needs. I was ashamed to post on here that I had that convo with H. But, you know what? It was good and the only reason I stayed on was because he was lucid and he was responsive and he was honest (relatively of course). His own depiction of himself was someone capable of self-delusion and his portrayal of himself was possibly sociopathic. Of course much of it also sounded like WAS admitting to the ways of WASness so I was not diagnosing.
What's the point of a convo like that? It helps so much. This is not an acute situation. His mentality, priorities and erratic, evasive and behavior have been issues for years. His blaming me has been unbearable for years. Recognizing this helps me to breathe and know that I am coping, that I am not responsible for all of this. And, that I want/need something different and I articulated that. Of course, I am going to have to create it for myself (can't rely on him) but it was still good to get him on board at least as a starting point.
Today, he was supercool, superdad...weird. He really has a wonderful side.
And, he is sobering about where he has been staying (he says it was something I said that made him think about it) and he does not want to take any money from his friend without working for it. He is still trying to impress me. Not sure if that is a good thing. I realize it may be helpful in getting through D but I don't know how healthy it is.
Anyway, the little things are tearing my heart a little. H going through boxes and preparing for his new place. It is tough stuff but no one said this wouldn't hurt.
Geez A/K,
(First off-you said the longer the better...so here it comes...)
Ouch...yeah it does hurt deeply, to have a talk like that and see him packing...
What can I say? The only way to get through the pain is to get
through it. You are.It's sinking in for both of you. I would imagine you'll see some gestures towards you on his end, b/c he'll get scared and want to know you are still there for him. He'll make a few non commital comments or moves to insure
you are not really moving on without him...???
Do what you will, but I'd urge you to think long and hard before just... being there for him. It's one thing to be his friend/co-parent, and quite another to be "there for him". He won't come back if he knows you are still there waiting--why should he?-- and as I said before and was said elsewhere, he's not likely to "just wake up & come back" anyhow. Sorry honey. I'm not clairvoyant, but he has been gone awhile now and shoot, he's still gone, so....what's there to say?
Glad you had the talk and made the focus on making a
decent co-parenting R now, not how to reconcile. Oh Yeah it's funny about being the LBSer and having "demands"..."MOI??" how'd that come up and get expressed anyway? Curious. But it IS a matter of what it would take on YOUR end which means what you would expect/require from HIS END...and whether the two will ever match up.
For some time now there has been a huge disconnect between what he will give, and what you deserve and need. Someday you will be like other "post" DBers who go on to have better Ms later on. G- says a lot of things that I disagree with but the main point I want to make is that there are far worse things than ending up divorced. That may be something he means. I post here not to just tell anyone to wait things out. I always talk about GAL b/c no matter the sitch, how can that ever be bad advice?
Don't know why he doesn't see that if he really has read my posts. The fact that I don't tell you or Kevin to date, even if I think it's a good idea, is out of respect for MWD AND the fact that people posting here tend not to want that type of advice. They want to know if they can save their M's and if not, what to do. Most are healthy enough to know they are not ready to date in any meaningful way. Sure it would probably get your h's attention. I don't see
why it wouldn't. Do you want to? Could you keep your kids from finding out? Why did you get scared that time it began to freak him out and he came running back? Why didn't you keep on with that action plan? (This actually would have pleased Gucci, b/c it's in his 'plan' but you flipped out for some reason I never fully understood...do you remember?)
Anyhow, The WAS's usually fit a few patterns, or seem to. Either they met their (new) soul mate, or just want to be "free" meaning have no responsibilities, or there is some serious problem on the end of the LBSer -in the WAS eyes= that isn't getting fixed and usually it's a combination of some or all of these.
IN my sitch yes h wanted freedom, first and foremost. G was wrong again in that although h said he "would prefer NOT getting a divorce, if that was what it took for him to get to Alaska, that was a chance he was willing to take..."
To me that's saying "I want what i want at all costs but won't take responsibility for ending it..." That's how it sounded to the 5 MC's we saw too. LIterally saw 5 and h liked the last one...
H Wanted to move 5 times in 6 years for his career, AGAIN,(with a son starting high school and a promise we'd keep them in one place for 3 years for HS, which we both made to the kids) after 12 moves in 17 years almost exclusively for his career, but he also felt that since I was a sahm for 7 years somehow I should no longer have a vote, and he was getting ripped off (my words, not his but not that far from his words, imho). Seems in hindsight, The more he worked, the more I felt the need to be home and
perhaps, the more he felt the need to work b/c I was not earning the 6 figures he expected to always have from me. Crazy cycle.
But like you, I had to own some things, such as his Love language and mine not matching well= so I have made adjustments on that end and know what you mean about the physical thing being a withholding. We had a great SL, but my problem was that when he'd work late or take extra call, I'd see it as an example of him putting career first. Sometimes it WAS just that. For a minute, Let's say I was "right", and that it
always reflected a lousy priority order for him. Okay. So, then was my "crossed- arms- when- he- walked- in- the- door" an effective tool for waking him up? NO! But I continued it For years!! Brilliantly! Why?
B/C I was "right!!" After all AND HE was wrong! Why should I act affectionate and happy and warm when he walks in late? WHat if He thinks his choices are fine and that I'm validating them, and he'll get even more selfish??...and FEARS and blah blah blah. Maybe that is ALL true. Maybe that would have happened and somehow he'd find MORE Call.....
But all we
know is that my approach did not make him want to come home more. Maybe, just maybe, if I had made the home a warm and happy place to return to, then maybe the adulation of the patients and staff would not have been such a tempting lure compared to the happy eyes of his wife and 3 kids. I don't know. Yes I made mistakes A/K but they did not justify his leaving me and the kids for a
JOB...foreign to us, isn't it? But it really is what your h is doing. (Job = ego...) Except my h did still put money on the table in sufficient quantities for us to live. Bye bye to a whole lot of savings, but his work pays well so I won't complain at this point, b/c it is over now anyway. (Let go of that awhile back.)
But today that is something I do handle differently. So that's one lesson learned, and he says things that are unusual for him. Today was a slow, "cheap" day for him wherein the cases were too few and not well paying. Okay, he would have complained about that for several minutes a few years ago. Instead he said he was glad that he got home in time to see d12's basketball game. And washed the car and helped with the dogs. And only 30 seconds talking negatively about the job, which he just started, btw.
That's a change I want to encourage. If any or none of this applies or helps you, chuck it or keep it.
Just saying that at least I know I am not doing the same old same old. You won't either. That's why you seek to learn from all this and that is what will make your future much brighter. Also the reality of his moving out and into his own place cannot and will not ever sink in to him, with his stuff still in YOUR place...SO thank GOD he's going...b/c you know A/K,
he has already been gone for some time anyway and now it's out in the open and no more denial can keep him from facing this and what he has caused to happen.
Never forget that he is the one who left the home. I'm not saying that makes you a victim; I'm saying he and he alone, is responsible for his actions. No one put a gun to his head and said "If you aren't happy with your life or your self or your wife, you can leave the family home and your children, and dump 90% of childcare and finances and hassles, onto
her...AND be seen as a nice guy anyhow..."
He will try to. Your response, in a calm DB way will do wonders
for you, at least. Who knows what will sink into him or if it'll matter and result in some action on his end...someday...or not....?? Don't wait for it though!
I always roll my eyes when the WAS discusses how
difficult the LBSer might make it for them to come home and likes to double check their "not a bad guy" status...he'll try to put it on you as to whether there is any hope for a future. As if it's your responsibility if there is no reconciliation - and that is rarely true.
If there comes a time when he wants back in but it's too late, how on earth is that your responsibility? If it is, so be it. You have the right to want a trustworthy spouse. So obvious when it's written out, isn't it?
He'll say "I know you won't ever let me forget this..." (and he'll stare at you for confirmation but you have to constantly treat it as a hypothetical rhetorical question that doesn't generate a direct answer b/c IT IS a hypo and rhetorical question!! Isn't it? And if you must respond, you could ask him, "Are you asking me a question H, or just talking...?" and move on unless he gets really direct and goes for it, and or says something like, "I"m asking what it would take for you to let me come home" and that's when you could again ask HIM the questions, "Are you asking to reconcile or just hang out here a few days in a try out M?" Or "what are you willing to do and are you sure you want to come home and if so, why? For how long?"
I could be wrong, but I'd put as many questions onto him as possible and you be in the 'data' gathering mode,
not him. What if he has a blow up at the celebs place or feels insecure for a week, and wants to go home and get his ego stroked, but doesn't actually want to COME home? What if he shows up with only an overnight bag? As in, "want to hang out a few days here...."?? What then?
When he asks about how hard you'd make it, or your family, it's almost as if he imagines this all as if he had a weird weekend binge, or a bad crazy one night stand...but this is full on "HE LEFT HIS FAMILY!" stuff...period. So what if he left some of his things there, (makes it worse to me) or comes around to see his offspring? How excited and grateful must an LBSer get for that scrap?
He's checking you out and you need to be ready b/c as he sees the changes, he'll waver and double check and flirt and say some "I'm being manly now, I get it" things...but the proof is in the pudding. If he takes his stuff and goes, he's truly gone.
IF he merely visits, nothing has changed.
When i told you about my two relatives who divorced and remarried 5 and more years later, I hope I mentioned
they both got lives when they divorced. THey both moved on and one switched careers, and they moved forward and from what I can tell, neither of them were miserable single people.
Their kids kept them in some contact with the EX S. But my Cousin K, a young man then, drank too much and lacked some important tools for coping with becoming a dad at an early age. The divorce was good b/c he stopped drinking, got a better job, took some classes and saw his son on a regular basis. He became a better dad. He also dated at least one OW for a long time. I think they even lived together for over a year. That R ended and at some point his ex w, who had also stopped the partying, became less angry and they bonded some as friends and co=parents. Somehow I know he wanted her back but I can't recall what exactly transpired except suddenly they were dating again. THen he moved back in and there was a wedding. That was now about 14 years for the 2nd M. They are happy.
My aunt, on the other hand, div for reasons unknown to me. I know she and my uncle fought a lot. They divorced, and kept in touch b/c of the 3 kids. I don't think there was a big amount of hatred but more of a "good riddance" attitude. But at some function several years later, he asked my aunt if she was happier now. She said, "Not really, and you?" And they had coffee that day after the kid's event. THey dated, fought less and with better results, and remarried. He got cancer 6 years later and she and the kids were at his side on his deathbed. I wish I knew more details but I do know this remarriage happens. In all the cases of M's that reconcile and stay together, my gut tells me it's b/c one or both knows they can GAL and did. ANd one of both realize they had a pretty good thing. I know a couple who reconciled b/c the "outside" world wasn't what they hoped for and so they "settled" for what was at home. OR were just too afraid their spouses would date others. Don't know if that is bad or good but it's hopelessly repetitive if there was no growth.
So, what's your next step? ANd what would you do, professionally, and where, if you could do whatever you wanted to do and live where ever you wanted to live? And what would a cool man for you be like? What would you be like with this new, cool guy? How would you be the same and how would you be different? And btw, are you feeling good lately about your appearance? I don't recall if you said you needed to exercise for your mental well being or needed to lose weight or whatever. Right or wrong, women care about our appearances soooo much. My mother is pretty tough like that. She was and is a beautiful woman and now, even at 87, she cares way too much about her weight. She weighs maybe 120 and is 5'4". She asked me if I think she should get a facelift!! Somehow I find her vanity almost endearing at this age. Who is she hoping to meet? (My father died in '93.) My point is that we women vest a lot of our self esteem on how we think we look and we are pretty hard on ourselves in that department. I can count on one hand how many women I have EVER known, who were truly happy with their present weights...*geez, I think that's literally true*...
Don't be hard on yourself A/K. I really have a good feeling about your sitch. NOT that he'll come back,
but that you will be truly alright. Sometime soon we should "do lunch" and I'll show you some posts from several happy former DBers who got thru their situations with or without their M"s and are indeed happy.
I don't know anyone who isn't now happier than before.
(That's what I should post to G- actually, if he cared to discuss and not endlessly compute his "wins and scoring"...lol)
Meaning, DBing isn't just about saving M's. It is so much more than that. And b/c of what we learn HERE, we are better partners regardless of who those partners are or become.
This is about us being happier with ourselves. Make sense? That counts! And with the 2nd marriages terrible divorce rate (2/3 of 2nd m's end in div BUT
80% of 2nd M's end in div IF the reason for the DIV was OP and that OP marries the WAS.)..so someone who leaves a spouse for OP, and marries that OP, has a 1 in 5 chance of making it long term with their new "Soulmate"....geez, so much pain for that, and with those odds?)
You are right to care about what you learn from all this. Jesus, who'd want to endure this a 2nd time? Are you on the db fb group? If so, let me know. I have a way to connect.
Take care,
((( j )))
Don't be hard on yourself A/K. I really have a good feeling about your sitch. NOT that he'll come back, but that you will be truly alright. Sometime soon we should "do lunch" and I'll show you some posts from several happy former DBers who got thru their situations with or without their M"s and are indeed happy. I don't know anyone who isn't now happier than before.
(That's what I should post to G- actually, if he cared to discuss and not endlessly compute his "wins and scoring"...lol)
Would you care to discuss the things you are doing wrong when you are giving advice? Let us start with your methods. Hint (On and on and on comes to mind).......
I wonder if you like to hear yourself talk. Helping people sometimes requires being a good listener and less talking. (Hope that doesn't offend you)
You seem to have a critical spirit.( evidence gathered from the way you sometimes criticize your husband) (I am sure you justify it as "venting") You don't see me talking (venting) about my wife the way you sometimes do your husband. Especially on a public forum. I would think someone as in the know as you would know that. Me thinks you should look in the mirror first, then come and we can discuss. Let's start with YOU. Me thinks you should worry less about me and more about some growth that you seem to need.
Don't be hard on yourself A/K. I really have a good feeling about your sitch. NOT that he'll come back, but that you will be truly alright. Sometime soon we should "do lunch" and I'll show you some posts from several happy former DBers who got thru their situations with or without their M"s and are indeed happy. I don't know anyone who isn't now happier than before.
(That's what I should post to G- actually, if he cared to discuss and not endlessly compute his "wins and scoring"...lol)
Would you care to discuss the things you are doing wrong when you are giving advice? Let us start with your methods. Hint (On and on and on comes to mind).......
I wonder if you like to hear yourself talk. Helping people sometimes requires being a good listener and less talking. (Hope that doesn't offend you)
You seem to have a critical spirit.( evidence gathered from the way you sometimes criticize your husband) (I am sure you justify it as "venting") You don't see me talking (venting) about my wife the way you sometimes do your husband. Especially on a public forum. I would think someone as in the know as you would know that. Me thinks you should look in the mirror first, then come and we can discuss. Let's start with YOU. Me thinks you should worry less about me and more about some growth that you seem to need.
Can you two start a new thread if you want to go at it. I am so appreciative of the varying points of view but I'm really in the thick of it and looking for support.
Sometimes less is more and sometimes more is more. Seriously, sometimes I need to read more, relate to more, see myself more to stay on a certain mental track.
And still there is value in the cut and dry advice you give Gucci. It is a bit like getting cold water poured over my head and it works and then there are the complexities of DOING and LIVING.
Gucci, if it resonated as deeply for others as it does for you, if it was as intrinsic for others as it is for you or if it felt as clear as it does for you, it would just flow. But, you're a tough nut with a but of a mean streak and a hard line seems to come easy for you.
I don't want to be coddled and I don't mind getting slapped with a pov that is a bit more acerbic but, you don't have to live AND in some sitches, you don't know what the LBS spouse is dealing with. In some cases there is potential for abuse, financial ruin etc.
Some sitches are unsalvageable and it becomes about mindfully and logically getting out with what you can and with the least damage done. I have a C to make sure I set boundaries and am aware of who I am dealing with.
Anyway, if you want to chime in on my sitch, I'll take it. Always open to it.
A&K, sorry to hijack, but I know yours is a heavily trafficked thread...
Does anyone know Serenity in the alt?
Her H moved out this morning without so much as a word or note...
Puppy and I are urging her to try to spend some time with a close friend or relative while she is dealing with the initial shock...
Geez A/K,
(First off-you said the longer the better...so here it comes...)
Ouch...yeah it does hurt deeply, to have a talk like that and see him packing...
What can I say? The only way to get through the pain is to get
through it. You are.It's sinking in for both of you. I would imagine you'll see some gestures towards you on his end, b/c he'll get scared and want to know you are still there for him. He'll make a few non commital comments or moves to insure
you are not really moving on without him...???
Do what you will, but I'd urge you to think long and hard before just... being there for him. It's one thing to be his friend/co-parent, and quite another to be "there for him". He won't come back if he knows you are still there waiting--why should he?-- and as I said before and was said elsewhere, he's not likely to "just wake up & come back" anyhow. Sorry honey. I'm not clairvoyant, but he has been gone awhile now and shoot, he's still gone, so....what's there to say?
I do not believe he is coming back. And I agree on being "there for him".Glad you had the talk and made the focus on making a
decent co-parenting R now, not how to reconcile. Oh Yeah it's funny about being the LBSer and having "demands"..."MOI??" how'd that come up and get expressed anyway? Curious. But it IS a matter of what it would take on YOUR end which means what you would expect/require from HIS END...and whether the two will ever match up.
I didn't so much make overt demands just highlighted what precisely about the current dynamic does not work for me and particularly that in essence I need to be treated with respect (it was clarified what that really is) and we discussed some of his blame and his expectations and honestly some of it was too much and some of it was really constructive. And this conversation wasn't about us being M, it was about ANY relationship I am willing to be in.For some time now there has been a huge disconnect between what he will give, and what you deserve and need. Someday you will be like other "post" DBers who go on to have better Ms later on. G- says a lot of things that I disagree with but the main point I want to make is that there are far worse things than ending up divorced. That may be something he means. I post here not to just tell anyone to wait things out. I always talk about GAL b/c no matter the sitch, how can that ever be bad advice?
Don't know why he doesn't see that if he really has read my posts. The fact that I don't tell you or Kevin to date, even if I think it's a good idea, is out of respect for MWD AND the fact that people posting here tend not to want that type of advice. They want to know if they can save their M's and if not, what to do. Most are healthy enough to know they are not ready to date in any meaningful way. Sure it would probably get your h's attention. I don't see
why it wouldn't. Do you want to? Could you keep your kids from finding out? Why did you get scared that time it began to freak him out and he came running back? Why didn't you keep on with that action plan? (This actually would have pleased Gucci, b/c it's in his 'plan' but you flipped out for some reason I never fully understood...do you remember?)
Honest truth? I finally realize that it is because he got very physically assertive and I could have told him to get the "f" off of me or go with it. I am just getting right now that I felt so conflicted when I got the attention I wanted and I gave in. And sometimes I was firm about no sex but I still didn't get him out of here or off of me quick enough which I think would have required me really letting him have it and shaming him. I think he got the power back in the sitch by sort of winning the physical battle and he saw it tied me up in knots, it messed with him too.Anyhow, The WAS's usually fit a few patterns, or seem to. Either they met their (new) soul mate, or just want to be "free" meaning have no responsibilities, or there is some serious problem on the end of the LBSer -in the WAS eyes= that isn't getting fixed and usually it's a combination of some or all of these.
IN my sitch yes h wanted freedom, first and foremost. G was wrong again in that although h said he "would prefer NOT getting a divorce, if that was what it took for him to get to Alaska, that was a chance he was willing to take..."
To me that's saying "I want what i want at all costs but won't take responsibility for ending it..." That's how it sounded to the 5 MC's we saw too. LIterally saw 5 and h liked the last one...
H Wanted to move 5 times in 6 years for his career, AGAIN,(with a son starting high school and a promise we'd keep them in one place for 3 years for HS, which we both made to the kids) after 12 moves in 17 years almost exclusively for his career, but he also felt that since I was a sahm for 7 years somehow I should no longer have a vote, and he was getting ripped off (my words, not his but not that far from his words, imho). Seems in hindsight, The more he worked, the more I felt the need to be home and
perhaps, the more he felt the need to work b/c I was not earning the 6 figures he expected to always have from me. Crazy cycle.
Yes!But like you, I had to own some things, such as his Love language and mine not matching well= so I have made adjustments on that end and know what you mean about the physical thing being a withholding. We had a great SL, but my problem was that when he'd work late or take extra call, I'd see it as an example of him putting career first. Sometimes it WAS just that. For a minute, Let's say I was "right", and that it
always reflected a lousy priority order for him. Okay. So, then was my "crossed- arms- when- he- walked- in- the- door" an effective tool for waking him up? NO! But I continued it For years!! Brilliantly! Why?
B/C I was "right!!" After all AND HE was wrong! Why should I act affectionate and happy and warm when he walks in late? WHat if He thinks his choices are fine and that I'm validating them, and he'll get even more selfish??...and FEARS and blah blah blah. Maybe that is ALL true. Maybe that would have happened and somehow he'd find MORE Call.....
Yes! But all we
know is that my approach did not make him want to come home more. Maybe, just maybe, if I had made the home a warm and happy place to return to, then maybe the adulation of the patients and staff would not have been such a tempting lure compared to the happy eyes of his wife and 3 kids. I don't know. Yes I made mistakes A/K but they did not justify his leaving me and the kids for a
JOB...foreign to us, isn't it? But it really is what your h is doing. (Job = ego...) Except my h did still put money on the table in sufficient quantities for us to live. Bye bye to a whole lot of savings, but his work pays well so I won't complain at this point, b/c it is over now anyway. (Let go of that awhile back.)
But today that is something I do handle differently. So that's one lesson learned, and he says things that are unusual for him. Today was a slow, "cheap" day for him wherein the cases were too few and not well paying. Okay, he would have complained about that for several minutes a few years ago. Instead he said he was glad that he got home in time to see d12's basketball game. And washed the car and helped with the dogs. And only 30 seconds talking negatively about the job, which he just started, btw.
That's a change I want to encourage. If any or none of this applies or helps you, chuck it or keep it.
Just saying that at least I know I am not doing the same old same old. You won't either. That's why you seek to learn from all this and that is what will make your future much brighter. Also the reality of his moving out and into his own place cannot and will not ever sink in to him, with his stuff still in YOUR place...SO thank GOD he's going...b/c you know A/K,
he has already been gone for some time anyway and now it's out in the open and no more denial can keep him from facing this and what he has caused to happen.
Never forget that he is the one who left the home. I'm not saying that makes you a victim; I'm saying he and he alone, is responsible for his actions. No one put a gun to his head and said "If you aren't happy with your life or your self or your wife, you can leave the family home and your children, and dump 90% of childcare and finances and hassles, onto
her...AND be seen as a nice guy anyhow..."
He will try to. Your response, in a calm DB way will do wonders
for you, at least. Who knows what will sink into him or if it'll matter and result in some action on his end...someday...or not....?? Don't wait for it though!
I always roll my eyes when the WAS discusses how
difficult the LBSer might make it for them to come home and likes to double check their "not a bad guy" status...he'll try to put it on you as to whether there is any hope for a future. As if it's your responsibility if there is no reconciliation - and that is rarely true.
If there comes a time when he wants back in but it's too late, how on earth is that your responsibility? If it is, so be it. You have the right to want a trustworthy spouse. So obvious when it's written out, isn't it?
He'll say "I know you won't ever let me forget this..." (and he'll stare at you for confirmation but you have to constantly treat it as a hypothetical rhetorical question that doesn't generate a direct answer b/c IT IS a hypo and rhetorical question!! Isn't it? And if you must respond, you could ask him, "Are you asking me a question H, or just talking...?" and move on unless he gets really direct and goes for it, and or says something like, "I"m asking what it would take for you to let me come home" and that's when you could again ask HIM the questions, "Are you asking to reconcile or just hang out here a few days in a try out M?" Or "what are you willing to do and are you sure you want to come home and if so, why? For how long?"
I could be wrong, but I'd put as many questions onto him as possible and you be in the 'data' gathering mode,
not him. What if he has a blow up at the celebs place or feels insecure for a week, and wants to go home and get his ego stroked, but doesn't actually want to COME home? What if he shows up with only an overnight bag? As in, "want to hang out a few days here...."?? What then?
When he asks about how hard you'd make it, or your family, it's almost as if he imagines this all as if he had a weird weekend binge, or a bad crazy one night stand...but this is full on "HE LEFT HIS FAMILY!" stuff...period. So what if he left some of his things there, (makes it worse to me) or comes around to see his offspring? How excited and grateful must an LBSer get for that scrap?
He's checking you out and you need to be ready b/c as he sees the changes, he'll waver and double check and flirt and say some "I'm being manly now, I get it" things...but the proof is in the pudding. If he takes his stuff and goes, he's truly gone.
IF he merely visits, nothing has changed.
Thanks for reminding me because I see that happening already. He is showing me what a great guy he is and wants more time with the kids and is pointing out the nice things he's doing.When i told you about my two relatives who divorced and remarried 5 and more years later, I hope I mentioned
they both got lives when they divorced. THey both moved on and one switched careers, and they moved forward and from what I can tell, neither of them were miserable single people.
Their kids kept them in some contact with the EX S. But my Cousin K, a young man then, drank too much and lacked some important tools for coping with becoming a dad at an early age. The divorce was good b/c he stopped drinking, got a better job, took some classes and saw his son on a regular basis. He became a better dad. He also dated at least one OW for a long time. I think they even lived together for over a year. That R ended and at some point his ex w, who had also stopped the partying, became less angry and they bonded some as friends and co=parents. Somehow I know he wanted her back but I can't recall what exactly transpired except suddenly they were dating again. THen he moved back in and there was a wedding. That was now about 14 years for the 2nd M. They are happy.
My aunt, on the other hand, div for reasons unknown to me. I know she and my uncle fought a lot. They divorced, and kept in touch b/c of the 3 kids. I don't think there was a big amount of hatred but more of a "good riddance" attitude. But at some function several years later, he asked my aunt if she was happier now. She said, "Not really, and you?" And they had coffee that day after the kid's event. THey dated, fought less and with better results, and remarried. He got cancer 6 years later and she and the kids were at his side on his deathbed. I wish I knew more details but I do know this remarriage happens. In all the cases of M's that reconcile and stay together, my gut tells me it's b/c one or both knows they can GAL and did. ANd one of both realize they had a pretty good thing. I know a couple who reconciled b/c the "outside" world wasn't what they hoped for and so they "settled" for what was at home. OR were just too afraid their spouses would date others. Don't know if that is bad or good but it's hopelessly repetitive if there was no growth.
So, what's your next step? ANd what would you do, professionally, and where, if you could do whatever you wanted to do and live where ever you wanted to live? [color:#FF0000]Trying to sort out where to live based on many factors and boy is that overwhelming, move schools? move to an area I always dreamed of moving to but is further from family etc. Doing what I want to do...that is getting clearer, woohoo! I have a meeting this morning to discuss a project and I am so excited!!! And what would a cool man for you be like? What would you be like with this new, cool guy? How would you be the same and how would you be different? Really, I am not in a place to start constructing my new guy. Some things come to mind and I notice but I have to be about me right now. [/color]And btw, are you feeling good lately about your appearance? I don't recall if you said you needed to exercise for your mental well being or needed to lose weight or whatever. Right or wrong, women care about our appearances soooo much. My mother is pretty tough like that. She was and is a beautiful woman and now, even at 87, she cares way too much about her weight. She weighs maybe 120 and is 5'4". She asked me if I think she should get a facelift!! Somehow I find her vanity almost endearing at this age. Who is she hoping to meet? (My father died in '93.) My point is that we women vest a lot of our self esteem on how we think we look and we are pretty hard on ourselves in that department. I can count on one hand how many women I have EVER known, who were truly happy with their present weights...*geez, I think that's literally true*...
I am, if anything, too skinny at this point. I put energy into how I look but there is no way I can compete (if we're just talking about looks) with the women H is exposed to right now. Of course, it hits my insecurities but I know that is not where I want to put too much of my energy. Don't be hard on yourself A/K. I really have a good feeling about your sitch. NOT that he'll come back,
but that you will be truly alright. Sometime soon we should "do lunch" and I'll show you some posts from several happy former DBers who got thru their situations with or without their M"s and are indeed happy.
I don't know anyone who isn't now happier than before.
(That's what I should post to G- actually, if he cared to discuss and not endlessly compute his "wins and scoring"...lol)
Meaning, DBing isn't just about saving M's. It is so much more than that. And b/c of what we learn HERE, we are better partners regardless of who those partners are or become.
This is about us being happier with ourselves. Make sense? That counts! And with the 2nd marriages terrible divorce rate (2/3 of 2nd m's end in div BUT
80% of 2nd M's end in div IF the reason for the DIV was OP and that OP marries the WAS.)..so someone who leaves a spouse for OP, and marries that OP, has a 1 in 5 chance of making it long term with their new "Soulmate"....geez, so much pain for that, and with those odds?)
You are right to care about what you learn from all this. Jesus, who'd want to endure this a 2nd time? Are you on the db fb group? If so, let me know. I have a way to connect.
Take care,
((( j )))
Holy cow 25!!!! I related to soooo much in there!!! I have to figure out the fb thing. I got off of there because of H drama (still have the page, just inactive). Maybe I will make a new alias for the DB connections. It would be lovely to meet IRL.
Thank you 25. I am off to my meeting. Yay!!!
My biggest fault is not knowing that I could be on my own. I latched on to H before my own egg had hatched and now I have to do it. When I wake up with so much fear (trembling), I know that it is MY insecurity that has held me back and that contributed to my disgruntlement in my M. Needing someone is just not healthy, especially if it is someone with their own giant bag of issues.
Yikes, my color scheme is way off...
Amen...love the "Before my egg hatched" analogy too. You have hatched! You are walking!!
You will make it.
Keep us posted...
j-
So, H will move out next week. We have to figure out how to tell the kids and handle the move. I need all the input I can get.
H suggested he could turn it into a positive and I lost it again (oh well), they need to be able to show us how they feel about it, not have us project onto them. Both kids have expressed hope that he will come home...this will be a real heartbreaker.
H was offended that I wasn't appreciative that he scraped up money to pay ONE of our bills. We are drowning and he is adding more expenses...
My meeting this morning was great. Things are progressing well on my website.
Dealing with H is like getting my eyebrows waxed only in slomo.
Good luck with the talk.
Agree to what is being said and have him say it so that the kids understand that it is HIS decision and not yours.
The next time he gets offended about the bill thing, just say 'thanks! here's the rest of them. since these affect your kids I'm glad you're taking initiative to take care of them." Then walk away.
See what he says about that!
So, H will move out next week. We have to figure out how to tell the kids and handle the move. I need all the input I can get.
H suggested he could turn it into a positive and I lost it again (oh well), they need to be able to show us how they feel about it, not have us project onto them. Both kids have expressed hope that he will come home...this will be a real heartbreaker.
H was offended that I wasn't appreciative that he scraped up money to pay ONE of our bills. We are drowning and he is adding more expenses...
My meeting this morning was great. Things are progressing well on my website.
Dealing with H is like getting my eyebrows waxed only in slomo.
This "turning it into a positive" is, as you know, something that rankled me. It deflects from their feelings. To me, having just lived through it, do whatever you can to let them know it isn't their fault and make sure they have room to express their feelings. I forget how old your children are, but even my 9 year-old could tell what was really going on. You can't keep H from doing what he'll do or saying what he will, but if I had a do over, I would have reminded W before the "talk" that "This is about their feelings, not ours." She may not have taken it to heart, but it can serve as a reminder to you, too, to not let anything he says suck you in to a place where you lose your focus.
I am acutely aware of how unhealthy and selfish it is for H to try to make it fun when we know they are going to be so disappointed.
He wants them to help him pack and it will be fun for them to have a room in the new place...with what money will he furnish this room????
He wanted to come by and give the kids a kiss, wanted to know if I wanted him to come give me a hug..."No, I don't, I really do not want to see you."
Aaaargh.
Should the kids be there when he moves his stuff out? I don't think so.
Can you ask a child c? Definitely reassure them he will see them again and often and that he is not leaving their lives so much as moving his stuff to where he spends most of his time. It can be called a "trial sep" if you must.
I just know that my kids needed to hear what was going to remain the same in their lives such as if they'd stay in the school or neighborhood, and when they'd see him. My d, then 9, felt reassured when I told her we'd only move "a long time from now" and when we did, it would not be far away so she'd see her peeps...and I said, "I will make whatever choice I make that I think will make YOU happiest" and she remembered that comment a long time and felt a lot better. (A child C told me that one).
IF h isn't reliable about when he'll see them...cross that bridge when you get to it but be ready to do a little "covering" for him in the sense that you can't tell them it's b/c he doesn't care. You'll need to take steps to protect them later though so he can't keep disappointing them. Some will disagree but a book called "What About the Kids?" Says to reassure them that both parents love them (even if there is OW...)
Might try to get that book...good luck, ouch...
j-
Hi 25 and others. I would like to address the issue of the kids being there when H moves out. I think they should not be there but I have only a couple of days to express this and I might like to have something he can read too.
I know they will need a few days to digest it so I would like to talk to them soon.
25- Unfortunately, I don't know when and where we will be moving and if they will stay in the same school...trying to sort it out.
Ouch is right.
I am on fb and am a member of DB there. Would love to meet you both A&K and 25.
Shawna F
GTFM,
I'm on there too - GivingIt MyAll.
I'm trying to get a little more guidance on the moving out part of this deal.
I do not think the kids should be here for the move. Agreed?
No, they absolutely should not be there for it. Take them out of the house. Go to the park, go to the beach, go on a picnic--anything to distract them.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
No kids during the move. It will be hard enough.
If you're in the alt you'll see me.
--
FB hint: You can share different postings, pictures, and features with different Friends Groups. Should your boss or distant family member (or H) ask you to be a Friend you can selectively share some items but not all (like those New Year's Eve photos in the chicken suit...) .
I don't have the energy for FB right now.
I am so bummed out.
H is only going to take a few things. His new place is temporary so the kids will be going through this for how much longer?
I am working on my plan...
Spoke to H and made arrangements for him to give me a list of what he intends to take and then come when they are not here to get it.
He has a friend that is giving him a bunch of furniture (a testament to his "good karma")...I am getting bitter.
How do I not get bitter or do I let myself be pissed for a while and know it will get better?
Others may have different views but let the anger come and go. Feel it, watch it, process thru it, then let it leave when it's ready. Just know it's there (and don't make important decisions).
Talk to your friends.
Just know it's there (and don't make important decisions).
You mean like file for D on Monday?
Anger is a very good thing. You have had way too little of it.
Because he has had me convinced that I am responsible for this and as much as I complain on here about him, I have bought his sh*t deep down inside.
Now, I am at my breaking point. I probably should have filed in the very beginning (Gucci, 25, there you go) because he had no where to live and I could have gotten custody more easily.
I am disgusted, heart broken, mortified. Feeling punched in the gut all over.
My conversation tonight was so good. We started to get into it and I told him very calmly I have given too much of my energy to him and I'm not doing that anymore so let's just stick to the facts.
I have been giving him my input and even my judgements have served to make him rethink himself and who he is and the choices he's making, and for what? So he can be a better man for his new GF?????? I want to puke.
I wish I could tell everyone on here to not give these cretans another ounce of their precious energy.
I wish being angry didn't hurt so much.
Yes, but the anger is self-preserving. You will protect yourself if you are angry. You have not protected yourself before.
I feel like he is winning by me stewing like this. Now I am ready to walk away and I hate him for how hostile I feel. Does that make sense??? I didn't want to give up. I didn't want to see the worst in him. 14 f*cking years.
I feel like he is winning by me stewing like this. Now I am ready to walk away and I hate him for how hostile I feel. Does that make sense??? I didn't want to give up. I didn't want to see the worst in him. 14 f*cking years.
AAK, I've been following and I'm sorry. Be angry. Be damn angry. Hate him. Be hostile. Makes perfect sense, right now.
He's
not winning, no matter
how much you are stewing. He is losing in so many ways. You didn't want to give up and you
didn't. You will be proud of that, soon, and for the rest of your life. How many of us start on this board and eventually say "I DB so that no matter what the outcome, I will hold my head up, know that I did everything I possibly could...etc."
Oh, and by the way,
Because he has had me convinced that I am responsible for this and as much as I complain on here about him, I have bought his sh*t deep down inside.
I'm betting you won't believe this for long.
You are definitely my prayer of the day throughout today.
Thanks Gardner. This really blows. Now what?
Okay hold on now A/K, you don't have to know all the answers this minute.
One at a time. No kids around for the move BUT They will be warned ahead of time so they don't think that you got robbed while they were playing. Do not let h make you out to be the bad guy in front of them but KNOW That (my child c said this so I'm passing it on to you) the kids MAY now and then lash out at you rather than h b/c they don't want to alienate him and make him come around less. So on one hand the good news is that you will have them most often but the bad news is that you won't get all their best behavior. He won't get their worst either, you will. But he will miss so much.
The anger is fine under one condition,
that it NOT Consume you. I think that is what you fear, so when you say "he wins, b/c of the anger", you mean b/c you are giving him too much power over how you feel about yourself and your life.
So don't give him so much of that power.
These are choices he made, never forget that. NO one, NO WOMAN would allow a man to come and go as he has for months, and think it's alright. Isn't that essentially what he has "asked" of you? Regardless of why he wanted out originally, even if you were the worst wife in the world which you were NOT,
the deal NOW, as of today, is that he expects you to put up with an insane type of arrangement and you won't. Good for you.
You will come out of this alright. He has behaved like a scoundrel, or in today's venacular, a "p-o-s-" and deserves your contempt. But it only goes so far b/c when those feelings spread too much in YOU, you have to remember that you are a good person who will survive and transcend and overcome and thrive, soon. I think you will. And he is SO Not worth much energy anymore.
Why not spend your energy on what you want to create for your new life, rather than what a crappy one you put up with for too long?
So talk to the kids, prepare them. Then get them out of the house when he leaves. And stay calm in front of him if you can but if you lose it for a minute, or he tries to fob this off on you, you can say, "H, no woman in her right mind would find your behavior acceptable. So count your blessings that I speak to you and don't bad mouth you to the kids...bye now!" And do make sure you both agree Not to engage in "parental alienation" and if he does, he'll lose big time.
I do ache for you, "OUCH" and I'm sending prayers your way even if you are not a believer b/c I think God has an extra phone line just for you.
Have faith that you will see the light at the end of this. You will.
((( )))
j-
One at a time. No kids around for the move BUT They will be warned ahead of time so they don't think that you got robbed while they were playing. Do not let h make you out to be the bad guy in front of them but KNOW That (my child c said this so I'm passing it on to you) the kids MAY now and then lash out at you rather than h b/c they don't want to alienate him and make him come around less. So on one hand the good news is that you will have them most often but the bad news is that you won't get all their best behavior. He won't get their worst either, you will. But he will miss so much.
Yes, I've got this down. I spoke to H last night. Lucky for me, due to his mommy issues and guilt, he will pretty much do what I want so we arranged a pretty good plan. I am already dealing with the issues that come with separation; they pine for him and give him their best. I get it, they share the hardest moments with me.
The anger is fine under one condition, that it NOT Consume you. I think that is what you fear, so when you say "he wins, b/c of the anger", you mean b/c you are giving him too much power over how you feel about yourself and your life. So don't give him so much of that power.
Yes and I realize that I desperately need space from him. So, today when he called I texted him do you "need" to talk to the boys? He answered yes. So I called and he wanted to ask some inane question and I was in the middle of a very nice time with the boys and it was BS that he needed to interrupt.
So, I just told him, I don't bother them when they are with him unless it is critical and he said I can call anytime and I said that I refrain even when it is hard because I want to respect their time with him and I do not want to be enmeshed and I have let them know they can call me whenever THEY want to. That is healthy to me even though it is very difficult as I have been used to being with them nearly every day of their lives.
I let him know that I need to not have to deal with him. I am hurt and disgusted and I have listened to him tear into me for months now and I'm done. I need him to leave me alone. He said "Ok, if that's how you want this, I can get ugly too." I said look, if every time I set a boundary to take care of myself and the kids, you threaten me this will be a nightmare for all of us. And he made some comment about my "negativity". That is the mindf*ck right there and I caught it. No, I intend to have a wonderful day, I just need you to leave me alone. I can guarantee he doesn't get it and probably never will.
I have spent all morning really focused on the kids and they relish in it because I have been so sort of gone emotionally these months.
And, I am excited to focus on myself and my work.
Thanks for your support.
Oh, last thing, he is only moving a few things out and it is irking me because it still puts us in a bit of limbo.
how does it put you into a sort of limbo? How about YOU take charge of that and get some storage space or pack the rest of it up and find a place for his stuff to GO....??
Just a thought. OTherwise you are doing so well. Glad to hear you say you are "done" with the mindf--- AND you handled the convo with him fine.
So he can get "ugly too"?? WTH? B/C You set a boundary...oh no!! You have no right to do that?? Geez, and he was being so nice and all...
All things considering, I'd say "Well done!". Have a great weekend!
J-
Setting boundaries is for YOU and YOU only. Of course the WAS doesnt like it because it lessens (or eliminates if you hold strong to your boundary) their ability to walk all over you, call all the shots and remain in control of the R. Its not uncommon for the WAS to lash you at you and say you are being negative, mean, unfair or some other BS.
The key to boundaries is enforcing them. They are for you and your stability, growth and forward movement. And they are not easy to set and stick to (trust me, I know). You can set your boundary in a calm, polite and firm fashion. Just be sure not to react in a negative way when the WAS expresses their displeasure with the boundary. Remain cool and calm. Eventually it will become second nature to you and its an excellent way to help you move forward for YOU and your children.
If having the remains of your H's things in your home make you feel like you are still in limbo then pack them up and tell him to rent a storage unit or move them elsewhere. I packed up all my H's things he left behind (I did that for ME though, not as a favor for him) and put them in our storage unit. It was kind of sad and empowering at the same time. I was tired of looking at them and I wanted OUR place to become MINE. As I told my H you are welcome to come home and live but if your choice is not to do that then MY home will not be your free storage unit until you are done drifting from place to place like some sort of frat boy nomad. In 1.5 years he has lived with his grandparents, friends and on and off w/his girlfriend. It must be a terrible feeling for a 34yo professional man to have no home, no roots and no stuff.
Honestly, I still do worry about my H from time to time and how he is living and how little he will be left with but that is because I am human and not a robot. But, choices have consequences. Nobody told him to leave and not come back, that was his choice so he could carry on with his GF, so, it is what it is.
You are going to be fine. Yeah, it will hurt and be sad and you will feel rage and anger like you never knew you could. But one day the dust will start to settle (but may get stirred up from time to time and that is ok too). Stay on the path you are on for you and your children - nobody said your H cant join you if he so chooses but right now he just isnt "path material".
Hugs!
PS - I am sad today too - this is the weekend of an annual charity event for my H's family. For the past 10 yrs. I was a huge part of it and this is the 2nd yr in a row I havent been there. I need to practice my emotional thought stopping because I keep thinking my H's GF has "taken my spot". Doest help that I am as hormonal as hell today. So, we all have ups and downs. I am thinking a martini might do the trick
Amen to what CG just posted. It is just fine, although sucky, to feel crappy at times and is NOT an indication you made the wrong choice. Geez, what choice is going to make you "happy" right now? You got a lousy hand and you are folding that one and going on to the next...so you'll do better soon.
(CG, I doubt the gf is "taking" your place. I have a feeling that she either is not attending at all, b/c somehow I think you are a hard act to follow, OR she is attending, cluelessly, and your h's family is acutely, and sorely aware of your absence...None of which is your problem.)
For both of you a sense of loss at your end is reasonable b/c it IS a loss for God's sake. And it does suck. But you may be able to retain something later on with the family. My bil left my older sister several years back and among the many regrets he had was that he lost us as well. But what is noteworthy is that although we DID drop him, it's b/c he broke our sister's heart without a good reason. She was the giver and he was the taker. (She has remarried and is happier now than she ever would have been with her first h, but it still hurt her and the kids deeply that he left. I have not seen him since he left though I hear about him thru my niece and nephews and he is not a very happy man...too BAD...)
In contrast, my oldest brother left a wonderful woman and their d, and we all told him he was a fool. Seriously we had so many discussions and he wanted to be right and for her to be "wrong"... He would not listen. He has remarried and now I can see why he left his first w. She had expectations of him. Normal, reasonable, healthy ones. But he didn't want to be married to someone who expected anything from him other than maybe fidelity. My brother has lots of good qualities but he's a lousy h. You could ask all of my silbings and my mother and you'd get a unanimous response. He's a lousy H. Not abusive, just very neglectful. AWOL....
Now my "new sil" is nice and very low maintenance with very low expectations of my brother. He meets those low expectations as he chooses to work abroad, in the War, away from her, 9-10 months of every year thus far. He's civilian so it is a choice, not a duty and this is now his 4th or 5th tour as he is addicted to the adrenaline but for the life of me, why'd he marry her at all? Don't know.
But his first W would have been miserable and he barely knows his only child though in his mind, he's a good dad b/c he calls her often and sends money...the point is, I am still in touch with my first SIL and we have vacationed together several times. She'll always be like a sister to me.
There were a few awkward moments with my brother at first, but he mainly understands that this is a good thing for his daughter or she wouldn't know US, HIS family b/c God knows he's gone enough....
CG, A/K, can you maintain some R's with your H's family? I'm proof that it can be done even when your own sibling is the idiot.
Surely it can be done when you aren't. IOW, I could understand if my sil found it too painful to maintain our R, but she is comforted by it and so am I. We remain very close. If it were MY h's family, I'd likely not have much contact with my MIL who never ever will tell her sons anything but how great they are. She never called when h was not here. Not a single time did she call to ask how the kids were....not much of a grandmother in my mind....And never disciplined her sons. Some moms are that way but CG, and A&K, I'm a mom of a son - and if he ever pulled something like your h's have, I'd reach out to my dil and tell her she's welcome in my home AND I would most definitely have a "lil' Chat" with my son. (A&K, it's mainly women who are raising boys to be men, so remember this 20 years from now)...
I'm just telling you that you might be able to keep some R's in the family. MIght take some time, but you can reach out maybe later when it doesn't feel weird or look like pursuit. But promise yourself you will NOT bring up the M with your poor inlaw. They'll be nervous that it's going to turn into a "why don't you fix your sibling" convo and it can't. Believe me, I tried and I tried with my brother -- and the first stunt he had pulled in the 80's happened at a time when we were able to reach him and yank him back...but years passed and he was still not into it and she was still hurting, so maybe his leaving was for the best. (I know it was now). Though my brother doesn't really see his own role in the issues or that he was mainly responsible for them, in the back of his mind I think he wonders why his ex w seems so much happier in her M now...(karma??)
Take care ladies, sorry this is a hard day but martinis' can make it ALL so much nicer...what do you put in yours CG?
((( j )))
how does it put you into a sort of limbo? How about YOU take charge of that and get some storage space or pack the rest of it up and find a place for his stuff to GO....??
Well, not quite ready to acquiesce to it being "his" stuff because a lot of it is very valuable and will be leverage in getting him to settle with me. Once out of my possession that would be harder. Putting it in a storage space he doesn't know about...hmmm...I've thought of that. Would be a bloody battle but may be worth it. I don't want his things (he spent all of OUR money on), I just want decent support and not to have to take his debt.
So he can get "ugly too"?? WTH? B/C You set a boundary...oh no!! You have no right to do that?? Geez, and he was being so nice and all...
Good Lord, he actually said "but I left you such a nice message wishing you a beautiful day..." He just doesn't get it.
I had a great day with the kids. They are struggling so much in their own ways. I want to really be here for them.
CG, A/K, can you maintain some R's with your H's family? I'm proof that it can be done even when your own sibling is the idiot.
My H's family has so far been decent. SIL struggles with communicating because she feels bad but has indicated that she loves me.
MIL has been a love. She totally coddles and enables her son but still tells him that she wishes he would try to work it out. There's is a jacked up R...really the elephant in the room that has contributed greatly to the demise of our M. I used to feel hostile toward her, now we are actually closer as she feels she can commiserate with me (her H left her with my H and sister so many years ago). She has been wonderful with me. When the sh*t hits the fan, that could change but I think we will come out ok as long as my expectations of her are realistic (she will not stop enabling him).
H's father can go f*ck himself as far as I'm concerned, he set the stage for this and has only encouraged and supported H in leaving me. No loss there.
So, I'm doing pretty well with the relatives.
CG- thanks for the post. As I've said before, the good news for you is that you don't have kids with him so you can cut all ties eventually.
Honestly, I still do worry about my H from time to time and how he is living and how little he will be left with but that is because I am human and not a robot. But, choices have consequences. Nobody told him to leave and not come back, that was his choice so he could carry on with his GF, so, it is what it is.
I am at a point where I am not willing to put my energy into helping H become a better person so he can go be that person with someone else. Major emotion and energy suckage.
I am going to go see a child behaviorist by myself as soon as I get some money.
S9 repeated a very inappropriate joke tonight at dinner basically about how miserable marriage is (he got it from daddy). I did ok in my response but I want to tear daddy a new a**hole. This kind of provocative stuff makes me want to get in some counseling with him though if history is any indication, he will not get it enough to really do things differently. I am not sure.
H had mentioned something in our convo earlier today about being "even" when I mentioned how hurtful he has been. On the one hand, I would like to see a professional to deal with his vindictiveness and try to move through and past it. On the other hand, I realize it is his crutch and he will not let it go unless and until he is ready.
When he says things like "Getting even" you may need to toss him a reality ball. "Getting even h? How can I possibly compete with the damage you've inflicted? OH WAIT! I don't want to. I want the pain infliction to STOP especially with our children...how could you possibly think hurting them wins points for anyone? Let alone you, h? Is that a loving fatherly thing to want? What is this REALLY about? Your guilt? Fine, you go cope with that without lashing out at me thru the kids b/c they become the 'collateral damage' you don't want to think about..." "Lose the score card, and maybe we'll get thru this without totally screwing them up..."
Sorry A/K but THAT comment pushed a button in me. It is one thing to be supremely self absorbed, but his comment borders on evil and shows us all how dangerous rationalizing can be. We have to watch ourselves in that arena too. It's like a warning shot. If your h, not normally a bad guy, can become this shitty, well, it's scary. Should give us all pause about how we behave too.
Good night A/K. Hope we can have lunch sometime IRL and connect and just laugh it off SOMEDAY...oh, let me post something to you that was posted to a friend of mine and see if it helps you. From Was2Sad, a great guy btw.
To a woman upset by the idiot thing her MLC h had done, or not done...
Look at me and listen now. Do not use his name or his alias in the same sentence with the word happy. Not because you think he may or not be, but because the two are of no consequence to you.
Any time you spend wondering if he is having fun is time you should be spending thinking about the blessings you have. Time you could be using to make plans for enjoying your life with your kids. The fact that he will not be doing that has nothing to do with your priorities.
When you are thinking too much about him, stop and seek solitude. Concentrate and focus on you. Think what makes you special. Think what makes your kids wonderful. Put your goggles on and look in the mirror. I just threw that one in to see if you could with a straight face.
Really, we all have moments on the roller coaster we would just like to puke and get it all out. You know at the same time that this ride will not kill us, and when it is over we will wonder what all the fuss was about. Hard to see it that way right now. In time, it will come. Allow yourself to think of something else. Allow yourself to imagine the world is still round and the sun will come up tomorrow.
Imagine yourself very very happy. Don't focus on the details of how or when right now. Just see yourself being happy. What do you like to do by yourself when you are happy? What do you like to do with just the kids when you are happy? Why aren't you doing those things right now? What plans do you have for doing all that this week? These are the things you should fill your mind with. Anything else is meaningless in life. Anything else in life is a distraction, an illusion. Focus on the important stuff and smile.
Hope it helps you as much as it did her, and me.
We'll talk soon
xoxo
J-
25,
Great post...
I like this (as well as letter) you re-posted:
When he says things like "Getting even" you may need to toss him a reality ball. "Getting even h? How can I possibly compete with the damage you've inflicted? OH WAIT! I don't want to. I want the pain infliction to STOP especially with our children...how could you possibly think hurting them wins points for anyone? Let alone you, h? Is that a loving fatherly thing to want? What is this REALLY about? Your guilt? Fine, you go cope with that without lashing out at me thru the kids b/c they become the 'collateral damage' you don't want to think about..." "Lose the score card, and maybe we'll get thru this without totally screwing them up..."
I think it works better still without the reference to guilt (which could be construed as mind-reading); it can be generic by just saying "you go cope with whatever it is"... Let them figure out what their own demons are, but don't play whatever it is out using the kids...
-AlexEN
I just received a remarkably concise email from H. This means he a) "got it" and b) is grumpy about it.
I wrote the following which I will NOT send because the truth is, I have the upper hand even if it doesn't feel like it and I want to stop making things so verbose and complicated. But here is what I would have sent if I felt it was worth the effort. If he is a jerk when I drop off the kids, I might revisit it.
It seems you are aggravated and annoyed that I want some space and need time to heal. Your behavior has been hurtful and devastating to me our children, and much of our extended family. You've gone so far as to numerous times compare me to your knew love interest and belittle me. And then you blame me for your emotionally abusive behavior which by the way is pretty consistent with how you've treated me for a long time. I realize that I hurt you too but this all reminds me of what the dynamic has been for so long.
When you mentioned being "even" yesterday, I realized how heartless you have become and how dangerous this situation is and sad that the kids are in the middle. 50/50 responsibility would have meant that we were "even" when you left. The fact that you are still looking for payback is a testament to your guilt and how difficult it is to rationalize your behavior (even with all of the swell of support you seem to have found)...you have to go back to the well to find a way to blame me and I suspect you may do that forever.
But, the victims of that are not just us and our emotional well beings but our kids as well. They've been living in that paradigm of blame for so long. Now that you have what you want and you are loved in the "right" way, there should be no reason to blame me or seek revenge.
You have expressed that in your heart you know this is right and you are fulfilling your destiny so there should be nothing but clarity and a newfound ability to empathize and treat me with gratitude and respect. Giving me space and time to heal and respecting boundaries would be part and parcel to exhibiting your goodwill. That would also preclude you from making veiled threats and having a nasty attitude.
Dropping the kids off sucked! Interaction was casual with H (he was busy laying by the pool with some of the women who live there, he's like part of the family now).
I am in a good mood after reading the following-
The better Coach got with communication, empathy, listening and setting boundaries, the more mad I got.
I can still work on my shortcomings and set boundaries. And H being angry does not mean I am doing anything wrong.
A/K, just a few ideas I'm tossing around. I am not sure it is a bad idea to get things off your chest and if and when he ever re-reads it, you'll have given him a reality ball. BUT he'll only read so much. Two or three paragraphs AT MOST....if you can keep it to one, the chance he'll read it all, greatly increases...so pick and choose...
j-
I just received a remarkably concise email from H. This means he a) "got it" and b) is grumpy about it.
I wrote the following which I will NOT send because the truth is, I have the upper hand even if it doesn't feel like it and I want to stop making things so verbose and complicated. But here is what I would have sent if I felt it was worth the effort. If he is a jerk when I drop off the kids, I might revisit it.
It seems you are aggravated and annoyed that I want some space and need time to heal. (Or maybe, "Though I'm not a mind reader, you actually seemed angry at me yesterday just for trying to get space from you, which I need to heal.) (I -note the "I" statements--have been hurt and devastated by your leaving as have our children, and moreover, some things you have said, are unecessarily cruel. On numerous occasions, you compared me to the new women in your life, to my face and you belittle me. ANd then you blame me for your present conduct as well. This is not all new behavior of yours, but it shocks me that you would still play the blame game when we have not lived together now for months... Your behavior has been hurtful and devastating to me our children, and much of our extended family. You've gone so far as to numerous times compare me to your knew love interest and belittle me. And then you blame me for your emotionally abusive behavior which by the way is pretty consistent with how you've treated me for a long time. I realize that I hurt you too but this all reminds me of what the dynamic has been for so long.
[i]Though this upper part is fully justified, the rest of the letter (below) might need to be sent. Just wondering..
When you mentioned being "even" yesterday, I realized how heartless you have become and how dangerous this situation is and sad that the kids are in the middle. 50/50 responsibility would have meant that we were "even" when you left. The fact that you are still looking for payback is a testament to your guilt (OR something internal in you b/c he may not ever admit feeling guilt which equals responsibility) and how difficult it is to rationalize your behavior (even with all of the swell of support you seem (CLAIM) to have found)...you have to go back to the well to find a way to blame me and I suspect you may do that forever. WHILE SURPRISING AT THIS POINT IN THE SITUATION, THIS BLAME GAME OF YOURS NO LONGER CONCERNS ME AS I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER YOUR ACTIONS, & AND I NEVER CAUSED ANY OF THEM EITHER...
But, the victims of that are not just us and our emotional well beings but our kids as well. They've been living in that paradigm of blame for so long. Now that you have what you want and you are loved in the "right" way, there should be no reason to blame me or seek revenge.
PERFECT A/K
You have expressed that in your heart you know this is right and you are fulfilling your destiny so there should be nothing but clarity and a newfound ability to empathize and treat me with gratitude and respect. Giving me space and time to heal and respecting boundaries would be part and parcel to exhibiting your goodwill. That would also preclude you from making veiled threats and having a nasty attitude.[/i]
[i
]LOVE IT[/i]
after all, if he is so convinced that he has FINALLY done the "right" thing, what's with the anger" What's with the threats? [color:#FF0000]When will he think the kids have been damaged enough for HIM to feel better about himself, since this is all about THAT????
Why are YOU so at peace (Interally you will be...'fake it til you make it honey' and use those acting skills in front of him to display utter indifference...in time, that is what you will feel. Where the head goes, the heart WILL follow, if you let it). Why are you so kind to the kids? Oh wait, I know, you love them and don't use them to hurt him!! ANd b/c you are finally free to live a life without a succubus in it.[/color]
The "happiness drain" is finally, thank GOD, moving on to some other place where I'm sure his "contributions" will be more fully appreciated....Well good for him! We're all so happy for his new found sense of peace and harmony...I'm sure it will last and last and be so productive. And hey, if it is, that's great news for you and the kids cuz maybe some bills will be paid. take note of his life style b/c the court will....and they DO count "OW"s" incomes by the way, IF you get a divorce decree, and he lives with rich OW, THAT counts and helps YOU....but you gotta get it in writing. Wait, you have that cousin DIV L....time for a call to the family business guy perhaps. Just get info....lots and lots of info and have a good beautiful day.(((( HUGS ))))
j-
I really like what you wrote...I may use some of it! Thanks.
Dropping the kids off sucked! Interaction was casual with H (he was busy laying by the pool with some of the women who live there, he's like part of the family now).
I am in a good mood after reading the following-
The better Coach got with communication, empathy, listening and setting boundaries, the more mad I got.
I can still work on my shortcomings and set boundaries. And H being angry does not mean I am doing anything wrong.
I like what Greek wrote too! I think it's about compassion...we have to have it for ourselves as well as others. Remember, the Golden Rule is based on the premise that we LOVE ourselves! We have to have empathy for our own hurts, and the will to do something about it...to truly have compassion for others too!
I really like what you wrote...I may use some of it! Thanks.
IMO...you should try to deal with the kid logistics first (I may need to take my own advice)...
But, as a premise for
us to remember (which is more important than what they think at this point), we are not responsible for their behavior or feelings.
A/K, just a few ideas I'm tossing around. I am not sure it is a bad idea to get things off your chest and if and when he ever re-reads it, you'll have given him a reality ball. BUT he'll only read so much. Two or three paragraphs AT MOST....if you can keep it to one, the chance he'll read it all, greatly increases...so pick and choose...
j-
I just received a remarkably concise email from H. This means he a) "got it" and b) is grumpy about it.
I wrote the following which I will NOT send because the truth is, I have the upper hand even if it doesn't feel like it and I want to stop making things so verbose and complicated. But here is what I would have sent if I felt it was worth the effort. If he is a jerk when I drop off the kids, I might revisit it.
It seems you are aggravated and annoyed that I want some space and need time to heal. (Or maybe, "Though I'm not a mind reader, you actually seemed angry at me yesterday just for trying to get space from you, which I need to heal.) (I -note the "I" statements--have been hurt and devastated by your leaving as have our children, and moreover, some things you have said, are unecessarily cruel. On numerous occasions, you compared me to the new women in your life, to my face and you belittle me. ANd then you blame me for your present conduct as well. This is not all new behavior of yours, but it shocks me that you would still play the blame game when we have not lived together now for months... Your behavior has been hurtful and devastating to me our children, and much of our extended family. You've gone so far as to numerous times compare me to your knew love interest and belittle me. And then you blame me for your emotionally abusive behavior which by the way is pretty consistent with how you've treated me for a long time. I realize that I hurt you too but this all reminds me of what the dynamic has been for so long.
[i]Though this upper part is fully justified, the rest of the letter (below) might need to be sent. Just wondering..
When you mentioned being "even" yesterday, I realized how heartless you have become and how dangerous this situation is and sad that the kids are in the middle. 50/50 responsibility would have meant that we were "even" when you left. The fact that you are still looking for payback is a testament to your guilt (OR something internal in you b/c he may not ever admit feeling guilt which equals responsibility) and how difficult it is to rationalize your behavior (even with all of the swell of support you seem (CLAIM) to have found)...you have to go back to the well to find a way to blame me and I suspect you may do that forever. WHILE SURPRISING AT THIS POINT IN THE SITUATION, THIS BLAME GAME OF YOURS NO LONGER CONCERNS ME AS I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER YOUR ACTIONS, & AND I NEVER CAUSED ANY OF THEM EITHER...
But, the victims of that are not just us and our emotional well beings but our kids as well. They've been living in that paradigm of blame for so long. Now that you have what you want and you are loved in the "right" way, there should be no reason to blame me or seek revenge.
PERFECT A/K
You have expressed that in your heart you know this is right and you are fulfilling your destiny so there should be nothing but clarity and a newfound ability to empathize and treat me with gratitude and respect. Giving me space and time to heal and respecting boundaries would be part and parcel to exhibiting your goodwill. That would also preclude you from making veiled threats and having a nasty attitude.[/i]
[i
]LOVE IT[/i]
after all, if he is so convinced that he has FINALLY done the "right" thing, what's with the anger" What's with the threats? [color:#FF0000]When will he think the kids have been damaged enough for HIM to feel better about himself, since this is all about THAT????
Why are YOU so at peace (Interally you will be...'fake it til you make it honey' and use those acting skills in front of him to display utter indifference...in time, that is what you will feel. Where the head goes, the heart WILL follow, if you let it). Why are you so kind to the kids? Oh wait, I know, you love them and don't use them to hurt him!! ANd b/c you are finally free to live a life without a succubus in it.[/color]
The "happiness drain" is finally, thank GOD, moving on to some other place where I'm sure his "contributions" will be more fully appreciated....Well good for him! We're all so happy for his new found sense of peace and harmony...I'm sure it will last and last and be so productive. And hey, if it is, that's great news for you and the kids cuz maybe some bills will be paid. take note of his life style b/c the court will....and they DO count "OW"s" incomes by the way, IF you get a divorce decree, and he lives with rich OW, THAT counts and helps YOU....but you gotta get it in writing. Wait, you have that cousin DIV L....time for a call to the family business guy perhaps. Just get info....lots and lots of info and have a good beautiful day.(((( HUGS ))))
j-
I need to get clear on what my intention would be in sending it other than to be "right" one more time. If I have it in writing and he responds, that could be helpful. I'm not sure if it is worth it. I set a boundary and I might like to just let it go for now. Don't want to do the old calling to tell someone not to call you anymore deal, ykwim? I asked him to back off and it seems that he is.
Oh, and really, I think I have already articulated most of this, even as far back as when he left asking him if this finally meant he would stop blaming me for everything and take responsibility for himself.
That has been so destructive for our R and our children...I don't think he will give it up just because I point it out AGAIN, it is part of his pathology.
Trying to get straight on what and where my energy should be going.
The manifestations of his thought processes are what I think are worthy of addressing.
I really like what you wrote...I may use some of it! Thanks.
IMO...you should try to deal with the kid logistics first (I may need to take my own advice)...
But, as a premise for
us to remember (which is more important than what they think at this point), we are not responsible for their behavior or feelings.
We have been physically separated since February, and the kid logistics have for the most part, under the circumstances, been pretty good. School, activities, and such, have gone pretty well...with each of us taking care of these things when it was our turns to have the kids. Vacations, as I've mentioned, have been a sticking point.
We can control our thoughts, feelings, and actions...but we can't control theirs. So we have to do what we think is right...and let them think what they will!
We can control our thoughts, feelings, and actions...but we can't control theirs. So we have to do what we think is right...and let them think what they will!
I think you and I are on the same page.
If you have already said all these things then I take your point. My main thing is that we keep clobbering these idiots with the "I have no control over what you do" WHICH THEY LIKE HEARING...but follow it with "And I never did. So you can't blame me for it..." which is the 'other side' of that issue. If they are "free to be free" then they have to shut up about the collateral damage their exercise of their beloved freedom causes...
Anyhow, all well said. Do as you will!
(( ))
J-
If they are "free to be free" then they have to shut up about the collateral damage their exercise of their beloved freedom causes...
Amen to that!
Anyhow, all well said. Do as you will!
Not sure yet, just want to be mindful and have no investment in his interpretation. If you think I write a lot, you should hear me talk.
I'm sure I've covered everything numerous times in fact. Maybe if I'm quiet for a while then I can say something succinct and it will have more of an impact.
brevity has a lot of value. For juries, I never make more than 5 points in all (and try very hard to keep it to three.) Usually I can keep it to three points even if there's a ton of stuff they "have" to think about...organize it for them into 3 "main" points, and bring it to the logical conclusion (which is that my guy is right, and the opponent is wrong...so obvious!!)
Economy of words. Men definitely prefer it and I do think they tune out easily. Also there is value in silence. last year I got a job offer and when it came to money I listened to the first number and said nothing. The guy went on some more and then, I swear, lifted the number by 20k annually and threw in a bonus...WTH? Just for listening and waiting which was partly a negotiation tactic on my end and partly b/c I wasn't sure how to respond yet.
Believe it or not, I do keep it short in the court room. Too bad we don't get paid for writing here, by the word!
Hope you are having a good day. Just don't let HIS interpretation get into your little internal world. As long as you master that, as you are starting to, you really will be alright. I can just tell. (That's convincing, isn't it?)
HUGS!!
(( J ))
Thanks 25. I had a good day. Had to send H an email regarding the upcoming move. I had written like 6 paragraphs with all of the aforementioned issues and I just deleted them and stuck to the issue at hand.
I wouldn't mind having him acknowledge that certain events occurred as it could be helpful. But for now, my instinct and challenge is less words and more action.
Too bad EVERY little f*cking thing reminds me of him, us, our family that is no more, etc. It is brutal out there...even saw a movie with someone in the wedding scene that was actually at our wedding...aargh.
But, overall a good day.
I want to buy a book I read about called "Get out of your mind and into your life"...written especially for me.
I hope you had a nice day too.
Rough night. When will I sleep normally again? Sheesh.
Tylenol PM. Just don't get carried away with it.
Ya, I'm not really a drug person...I always end up with some side effect.
I just wonder when I'll regain some sense of normalcy and be rid of this sort of "what's coming next" feeling . I mean, I feel so defensive, like I have to be ready for anything and I want to just be me and breathe. I want to feel stable.
I take some melatonin supplements at times before bed. Helps, plus gives me some cool dreams!
AAK,
I know how you feel. What have you done to work on detaching?
Rough night. When will I sleep normally again? Sheesh.
Hi AAK.
I don't have to use them anymore, but when I did, I used an antihistamine you can buy OTC called doxylamine. It works great. It works much better than Benadryl. Doxylamine is in Unisom, but you can buy generic also.
Thanks 25. I had a good day. Had to send H an email regarding the upcoming move. I had written like 6 paragraphs with all of the aforementioned issues and I just deleted them and stuck to the issue at hand.
I wouldn't mind having him acknowledge that certain events occurred as it could be helpful. But for now, my instinct and challenge is less words and more action.
Good luck getting him to drop his revisions and see things for real....yeah, let's spend LOTS of energy on that....
Too bad EVERY little f*cking thing reminds me of him, us, our family that is no more, etc. It is brutal out there...even saw a movie with someone in the wedding scene that was actually at our wedding...aargh.
The semi-good news is, HE is reminded of more things than you know. [i]When the other people's kids are laughing and playing and wrestling, even with HIM, he'll know 2 kids who aren't with him doing the same. Eventually as you GAL, he'll know they are not in bed waiting for HIM to show up and play, but that they ARE playing and laughing and having fun...but he's the one missing out...ANd when he hears a song, or sees a wedding or film piece --his amnesia isn't total. Especially when you are not around and he can get some space...and he can feel and he can remember and feelings will re-surface. No parental voice from you will shut out his inner voice. If he doesn't have one anymore or shuts it down better, then thank God you know now...
[/i]
But, overall a good day.
I want to buy a book I read about called "Get out of your mind and into your life"...written especially for me.
I hope you had a nice day too.
((( j )))
I wouldn't mind having him acknowledge that certain events occurred as it could be helpful. But for now, my instinct and challenge is less words and more action.
I meant for legal purposes (his response would probably validate the content of my email as he usually apologizes or defends, wither way, it would be acknowledged in writing. LOL. Good Lord, I've given up on believing he can change by now. I'm not completely insane.
When is the big talk with the kids happening?
Well, the big talk wasn't so big. Someone apparently already was commenting about H's new place with the kids around.
Anyway, he told them where he will be going and it will be for a couple months.
S9's face looked sad and sort of befuddled. But then they were back to their "new" normal selves.
H was flirty, antagonistic, confusing, moronic, cute and here for too long. Commented on how good I look. Didn't make the list he said he would of what he wants to take. Had a friend meet him here to take him to go sell some things. Mentioned he may need to come back later to get some things for work, I said I will need a head's up.
Dammit, I am still attached. Aaargh. But, I'm better because I am getting clearer about what I need to do and how to do it. He just doesn't make it easy.
AAK
Dammit, I am still attached. Aaargh. But, I'm better because I am getting clearer about what I need to do and how to do it. He just doesn't make it easy.
It takes time. Detaching does not mean you do not still have feelings for H. It means you can control them.
I know how you feel. What have you done to work on detaching?
Well, it has helped to see him more objectively. Focusing on my projects and my kids helps too. Getting clobbered here helps too. Having H tell me about OW sure helped (I am almost certain she is in other country).
What gets in the way? Don't barf but our chemistry on top of all of the obvious reasons to try to avoid divorce. We still have that chemistry when we are around each other. It is so unnerving. Having his attention and his flirtatiousness and his persistent preoccupation with what I think puts the burden on me.
What would help? Clearly enforced agreements. Going to work on that with C.
Dammit, I think I'm done and then I spin..."well, his new place is only temporary"...blah blah blah.
Today, I am going to go through ALL of the bills and let him know how much I need. I need to make lists and knock things off one at a time. Be productive.
Having his attention and his flirtatiousness and his persistent preoccupation with what I think puts the burden on me.
Exactly why he does it. To control you. Chemistry or dysfunction?
Getting clobbered here helps too.
Glad to help.
Handle it.
Cheers
Exactly why he does it. To control you. Chemistry or dysfunction?
UUUUUhhhh...I'll take dysfunction for $300...
Maybe a tiny bit of chemistry...just an itty bitty bit???
On the topic of dysfunction, aren't most of the Rs here dysfunctional? Has no bearing on what I need to do, just wondering. I mean reading about despondent Ss, depression, LBSs living with Ss who are in the midst of affairs for years on end...etc.
I suspect most of these sitches just lead to more heartache even with reconciliation unless the dynamic and underlying issues are really addressed.
I suspect most of these sitches just lead to more heartache even with reconciliation unless the dynamic and underlying issues are really addressed.
I suspect you are absolutley correct.
On the topic of dysfunction, aren't most of the Rs here dysfunctional? Has no bearing on what I need to do, just wondering. I mean reading about despondent Ss, depression, LBSs living with Ss who are in the midst of affairs for years on end...etc.
I suspect most of these sitches just lead to more heartache even with reconciliation unless the dynamic and underlying issues are really addressed.
Hence the "Focus on yourself" part that we all get told. It's so true.
It also seems to be why we often see the LBS becoming the WAS. In the case where the LBS really really focuses and changes and grows, they then start to really see the problems in the R and become more wary of the changes that the WAS is NOT making.
When (if) the WAS then comes back, does the LBS still want them?
I know I am asking myself this question. Even though my W is not coming back, I am seriously asking my self, if she does, do I want it? Under what conditions? I know others here who are asking themselves the same things.
Yes, my H left once before, came back and despite the many changes I made, he honestly made almost none and here we are again. Without some accountability on his part, there is no hope.
Hence the "Focus on yourself" part that we all get told. It's so true.
It also seems to be why we often see the LBS becoming the WAS. In the case where the LBS really really focuses and changes and grows, they then start to really see the problems in the R and become more wary of the changes that the WAS is NOT making.
When (if) the WAS then comes back, does the LBS still want them?
I know I am asking myself this question. Even though my W is not coming back, I am seriously asking my self, if she does, do I want it? Under what conditions? I know others here who are asking themselves the same things.
I didn't believe it at the time but I was modeling to my wife and showing her how to change. (read leading) We think we are the ones with all the issues when we first roll in here. ON key to piecing is supporting and loving them thru their "snake killing." My marraige is in a much more mature and solid place. DB tuition is high I was not about to let my education go to waste.
Cheers
I just got off the phone with a therapist who specializes in dealing with narcissists and relationships.
I surrender. I just have too many buttons being pushed with the kids and all of this willy nilly stuff.
The other guy I saw was a life-coach and though I liked him, I am at the point where I want someone who really gets this from a clinical perspective.
So I will see her on Thursday and we will set out a plan and I can know that I am doing everything in the interest of protecting my kids.
I think what is getting me is seeing my kids having to navigate their R with H (and me for that matter) and I really want to try to break this cycle now.
Hey A&K,
I agree with your approach... someone who gets this from a clinical perspective would be great.
BTW, there is a book called "
SPLITTING: Protecting yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or a Narcissist" which deals with this very issue.
Link to:
Splitting It's described this way:
"SPLITTING is designed for anyone facing a high conflict divorce, whether or not your spouse meets the criteria for a Borderline or Narcissistic Personality. Its explanations of WHAT TO EXPECT in Family Court and WHAT TO DO to protect yourself and your children, can be used by anyone, including your attorney, your therapist, your family and others involved in your case.
...Since I had been a therapist for the previous decade, I recognized these personality problems -- but I did not realize at first how successful they can be at manipulating and confusing legal professionals.
Rather than being rational and protective, the Family Court process can be very unpredictable and inadvertently encourages false allegations, aggressive and sometimes violent behavior, and intense blaming of the Non-BP or Non-NP spouse... Because the courts are often more persuaded by the intense emotions and blaming behavior of a Borderline or Narcissist, than by your honest presentation of the facts. I call them "Persuasive Blamers."
This book ... summarizes the lessons I have learned, including: the importance of careful preparations before announcing the divorce, using therapists and experts, avoiding short hearings on important issues, fighting hard at the beginning rather than trying to fix bad decisions later, and how to work most effectively with your attorney. I do not blame Borderlines and Narcissists, as they are also caught up in this adversarial process which often enables them to remain stuck rather than getting the help they need."Which reminds me, it's about time to re-read it myself...
-AlexEN
Hence the "Focus on yourself" part that we all get told. It's so true.
It also seems to be why we often see the LBS becoming the WAS. In the case where the LBS really really focuses and changes and grows, they then start to really see the problems in the R and become more wary of the changes that the WAS is NOT making.
When (if) the WAS then comes back, does the LBS still want them?
I know I am asking myself this question. Even though my W is not coming back, I am seriously asking my self, if she does, do I want it? Under what conditions? I know others here who are asking themselves the same things.
I didn't believe it at the time but I was modeling to my wife and showing her how to change. (read leading) We think we are the ones with all the issues when we first roll in here. ON key to piecing is supporting and loving them thru their "snake killing." My marraige is in a much more mature and solid place. DB tuition is high I was not about to let my education go to waste.
Cheers
Coach,
If only we were all so lucky as to have a Greek on the other side of the equation...
If we're all being realistic, we also have to acknowledge that even if one were able to mimic your leading to the nth degree, not all WAS will follow the lead and have the wherewithall themselves to kill the snakes...
It certainly increases the likelihood of an outcome like yours, but at the end of the day, both parties have to make changes, if party A can't lead it won't work and if party B doesn't/can't/won't "follow" it may not work either, but in either instance the leader will be the better for it...
Yes? No?
-AlexEN
Hey A&K,
I agree with your approach... someone who gets this from a clinical perspective would be great.
BTW, there is a book called "
SPLITTING: Protecting yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or a Narcissist" which deals with this very issue.
Link to:
Splitting It's described this way:
"SPLITTING is designed for anyone facing a high conflict divorce, whether or not your spouse meets the criteria for a Borderline or Narcissistic Personality. Its explanations of WHAT TO EXPECT in Family Court and WHAT TO DO to protect yourself and your children, can be used by anyone, including your attorney, your therapist, your family and others involved in your case.
...Since I had been a therapist for the previous decade, I recognized these personality problems -- but I did not realize at first how successful they can be at manipulating and confusing legal professionals.
Rather than being rational and protective, the Family Court process can be very unpredictable and inadvertently encourages false allegations, aggressive and sometimes violent behavior, and intense blaming of the Non-BP or Non-NP spouse... Because the courts are often more persuaded by the intense emotions and blaming behavior of a Borderline or Narcissist, than by your honest presentation of the facts. I call them "Persuasive Blamers."
This book ... summarizes the lessons I have learned, including: the importance of careful preparations before announcing the divorce, using therapists and experts, avoiding short hearings on important issues, fighting hard at the beginning rather than trying to fix bad decisions later, and how to work most effectively with your attorney. I do not blame Borderlines and Narcissists, as they are also caught up in this adversarial process which often enables them to remain stuck rather than getting the help they need."Which reminds me, it's about time to re-read it myself...
-AlexEN
And I wonder why I have felt intimidated and fearful of initiating D
...I just need help. I'm so twisted up, don't know if I'm the crazy one or more likely, we both are.
I was reading today how withholding sex is a form of emotional abuse. So, narcissistic or not, it makes sense that H is happy to discover he is desirable.
Unlike some, I was not intentionally withholding to alter his behavior or get something from him. I was literally so turned off and insecure in the M and at times he disgusted me. I want to talk to C about this too. Why would I get to a place where I was so contemptuous of someone I love? And if it was just our dynamic (I suspect living with a narcissist can have some side effects), why did I engage in and stay in that R for so long? Of course, more important, what do I do about it now??
I really want to lead regardless of whether H ever follows. For our childrens' sakes I hope and pray that H might get some help too. I can say that I think if he does just have narcissistic tendencies that have blown up in an acute outburst, it would make sense that lack of sex and feeling undesirable would help push him over that edge. It does seem he is overcompensating a bit...just a wee bit.
I don't think it is my fault, I think I felt as stuck and screwed over as he did.
Just sort of letting some of this out here.
A&K,
Might be worth getting the book. Even if he isn't NP and is just BP, a lot of the same things apply...
And, oversimplifying, since the dynamics of your dance with H has many layers, this language hit home for me: "and intense blaming of the Non-BP or Non-NP spouse..."
It's hard not to accept that blame when it comes at you relentlessly; the NP/BP so firmly believes what they are saying that it is VERY convincing [that isn't to say that we on the other hand are blameless, but our $hit is magnified under this microscope] and thus more "credible" especially if the non-BP or non-NP spouse has issues with self-confidence, co-dependence or enmeshment.
You've been following Serenity's thread, from the outside looking in, and this probably isn't totally fair, it seems that you are being as unduly harsh on yourself as is she. Acknowledge your reasonable portion of the responsibility for your sitch being what it is, but don't accept all of the "blame"...
Why do I end up on your thread when it's late and I know what I'm trying to say, but can't quite get the words the way I want them...
-AlexEN
You have to change the expectation that you are dependent on him for your emotional well-being. You need to heal and grow, regardless of him. Even when your senses and intuition tell you that he ought to be the one to make changes, you need to become the fully alive person you are meant to be. This means you have to remove the focus from him, and put it squarely on you. That is also the best thing you can do to help him and your relationship.
Why do I end up on your thread when it's late and I know what I'm trying to say, but can't quite get the words the way I want them...
Because you're awesome, that's why. And the words make lots of sense.
I don't really blame myself anymore. I am all about my own mental health though so I want to be fearless and honest in my self-assessment.
I'm so trying not to be hostile right now. The kids have so little clothes and other stuff and H suggested today that I bring some of their things over to his new place. I know this is necessary but a) it means we are going to spend money we don't have for more stuff (or he will) and b) this begins one of the hardest parts for kids, having their things in two places and having resources spread thinner than they already are.
When H talks about selling stuff, I want that money to go to pay bills, not pots and pans...but, really, even with a settlement, he would be able to spend his money as he wishes and buy things for his place. It is more a matter of why isn't it worth it to sell stuff and be proactive for us?? But, realistically, this separation is good in so many ways. I just know that a lot of people want to separate and don't because they can't afford it. How's that for incoherent articulation?
Anyway, perhaps he will get a taste of reality, he sounded pretty down when I spoke to him tonight, kind of like a normal person under the circumstances actually (irrelevant, I know, him, him, him)...
You have to change the expectation that you are dependent on him for your emotional well-being. You need to heal and grow, regardless of him. Even when your senses and intuition tell you that he ought to be the one to make changes, you need to become the fully alive person you are meant to be. This means you have to remove the focus from him, and put it squarely on you. That is also the best thing you can do to help him and your relationship.
Yep. I'm hoping the therapist will help with this. When I spoke with her, she said I am no where near ready to divorce. That felt good, not because I want to save the marriage but because it is the truth. I do not have my bearings enough to put on the big girl panties and keep them on through the divorce process. I have tried to navigate this on my own and I crumble way to easily. I am going to need to be very clear and very decisive and very together to get through this. I mean, if I fall apart this easily, I will look like the nut in our deliberations.
Ok guys. Don't give up on me. I think H's move and the dwindling funds, added expense and accompanying inconveniences of two places has really gotten to me.
I read some great posts here this morning and I suppose if I view all of my own actions through the eyes of my children, I will know better what the "right" thing is to do. I mean, someone else mentioned strength and honor...I like that.
I want them to see their male role models deliver on that but I can only control me so back on the horse, aaaagain.
There you go. Strength and honor - that sounds like Coach.
Work on you and the rest will come.
Coach,
If only we were all so lucky as to have a Greek on the other side of the equation...
If we're all being realistic, we also have to acknowledge that even if one were able to mimic your leading to the nth degree, not all WAS will follow the lead and have the wherewithall themselves to kill the snakes...
It certainly increases the likelihood of an outcome like yours, but at the end of the day, both parties have to make changes, if party A can't lead it won't work and if party B doesn't/can't/won't "follow" it may not work either, but in either instance the leader will be the better for it...
Yes? No?
-AlexEN
I agree. I know what worked for me. I believe both parties have to stop feeling and start thinking to get some traction going again in the marriage. I am truly blessed to be married to Greek.
The mindset I see "successful" people make here is "I will thrive thru this regardless of the outcome." Because that is all about you. It's a command to yourself to grow. It's the clarity to detach because your marriage might not survive. It's the will to work on what you need to for your next "marriage."
Here's to better days!
Cheers
The mindset I see "successful" people make here is "I will thrive thru this regardless of the outcome." Because that is all about you. It's a command to yourself to grow. It's the clarity to detach because your marriage might not survive. It's the will to work on what you need to for your next "marriage."
Perfect!
Ya, I get a little hung up on the logistics and coping with the unforeseen variables. It is like a train wreck in slow motion. Once the train crashes and the damage is assessed, we can heal. In the mean time, I want to "handle it" with as much grace, clarity and mindfulness as possible.
Ak--
I think this is where my faith comes into play. I have been reading, over nd over, a book by Joyce Meyers called Seven things to keep the Devil Under Your Feet. The enemy has no more authority in your life than you and God allow and in the name of Jesus we have the power to force him out. However, hot to push a theology, but to give you perspective, the first thing you can do is to walk in peace. You have to not only be a peacemaker but a peace maintainer. If you keep peace in your heart, realizing that the only authority you have is over yourself, you will find the peace you so crave. You have to surrender everything you cannot control to the Universe (or in my case, the Sovereign Lord) and focus on finding your own peace.
By working toward your own peace, you will bring peace into your life.
Living God's blessing with grace and dignity~
SMW
You know, I am not a real religious person but that post helped so much. I am so emotional and angry right now. I keep fighting with H because I haven't accepted his choice. I keep lashing out because I have massive bills to pay and he is adding more.
And then, when we get into it, he falls back on blaming (which makes sense given his motivation)...
I want to stop. Today, he called and "needed" to come by and I just feel so invaded all the time...one way or the other.
I feel so out of control. I feel everything is happening...I don't want to grasp for control from this place. That is why I am seeking help.
I should go back to my relative L to determine the best way to protect myself and my credit and future stability.
You will continue to feel out of control until you start taking action for yourself. Put your needs first, yes ahead of your H's and the kids. You can't do good for your kids if you are a heap on the floor.
Make a list, prioritise and get busy. Work is a verb (action word.) Love is a verb. Help is a verb.
The pressure will alleviate when you start getting busy. Now GO! I tell my players to "FLY!" when I want them to bust it.
AliveandKicking, FLY!
Yes! The enormity of the debt and bills and having the kids is overwhelming me.
There is no way I can make enough money to handle any of this at the moment, I keep working away at the projects I have (one of which should, God willing bring in money soon), but I know this is my achilles heel. I have $20 in my account and H can't tell me for sure when more will come in. And then the knowledge that he is adding more expenses just kills me. And here we are right where we've been all along.
So, yes, a plan, a real plan needs to be implemented.
I know that I have been so controlling in the past and look at how things end up so I don't trust myself anymore.
I am so hostile that he can just breeze out of here and tell me to "hang in there." I almost bust a gasket on that one. And there I was, for his viewing pleasure, the judgmental, negative, naysaying critic who is just looking at the cup half empty cuz I should just know it is all going to work out just fine...
So, yes, I need a very practical plan for climbing my way out of this.
Today (not always), I am so jealous of him...why? He is broke, has only other people's opinions of him to draw self-esteem from ("so and so says I'm the best dad she's ever seen"), a fracture because he has an injury that wasn't dealt with for months so will now have him limping and cost more money...and I'm jealous of him? Why? Maybe because he can brush it all off and say it will all work out.
Anyway, ya, this is tough with the move happening so I am extra emotional.
I am, I will. Don't give up on me.
You will continue to feel out of control until you start taking action for yourself. Put your needs first, yes ahead of your H's and the kids. You can't do good for your kids if you are a heap on the floor.
Make a list, prioritise and get busy. Work is a verb (action word.) Love is a verb. Help is a verb.
The pressure will alleviate when you start getting busy. Now GO! I tell my players to "FLY!" when I want them to bust it.
AliveandKicking, FLY!
Or get back on that horse you were talking about a few posts up... Use that image, a flying horse, (I keep picturing the red one on the Mobil signs) as a thought-stopping image when you start feeling out-of-control and as a trigger to do just as
@Coach says!
...I can only control me so back on the horse, aaaagain.
I am, I will. Don't give up on me.
Last summer when I was wallowing, alone, afraid and woreout. I came up with my mantra, "I can handle it." No matter what it was I can handle it. How would I handle it? By thinking, planning, getting input, simplifying, exercising, praying, mojo and staying busy. The "snakes" invaded when I got tired, hungry, and bored. I knew what triggered them and worked around them.
You didn't ask to be here. You do have to deal with it though. I promise the fear of what you are facing is not as bad as the reality. Take action, get some facts and start working your plan. Don't you give up on yourself. Dust yourself off and take a stand for yourself (it feels really good to do something loving for yourself).
You can handle it. Nobody is giving up on you. 2x4s mean you are loved here.
Cheers
I don't even feel 2x4'd at all. I feel understood and encouraged. Thank you.
I will try some different mantras...
And, I will start making lists again and knocking things off one at a time.
You are getting such great advice. Let it enter AND REMAIN in your heart.
The logistics, SMISTICS...of course that will overwhelm you and is such a great way to stay stuck. Remember that female doc I had as a client who really worried about ending up penniless on the streets? Okay so you won't earn 6 figures right away but your worst fears won't come true either. GET A GRIP A/K, you can do this.
At one point, I too had some pretty real and pretty crazy fears...all the "stuff I helped us "EARN" would now all be gone and some OW would jump in my pool and I'd be poor and blah blah blah. IN your h's sitch - lots of that stuff may NEVER be earned, or "owned" but a lot is already owed b/c you both thought you "should" have more. You bought into his choices or allowed the delusions/ratonalization that you have to "look" successful to get clients so of course you have to wear the right clothes, drive the right car, and eat in Spagos...or at least, HE does...
For me I finally said, "it wouldn't be the end of the world if I had to live in my sister's basement, b/c I won't put up with THIS anymore"...
There are many lessons here for your kids and they are not all about "standing"....when your h disses you too much, or they are financially threatened, which for Pete's sake, YOU ARE...you will have to put them first. I don't know what exactly the t meant when she said you are not ready to divorce him. What does she think it'll take? Glad you are seeing the Clinical person but do they mean YOU need more help or what? (I don't think you are crazy, for the record...hate having to say that too....)
SMW's advice about finding peace--take it in. Get your "mantra". I'll share a "contract" I made with myself 20 years ago at a great workshop, that I keep about 75% of the time...and when it refers to "inner authority" it means boundaries and not owning or taking on someone else's 'poop'...and not letting THEM into your heart or your "jurisdiction".
(Since I'm a L, I love analogies. And it helps me to think of myself as a state. Like Iowa cannot tell Ohio, "Oh hey, WE in Iowa are really pissed about the tornado that came thru our capital, and want YOUR citizens to pay up...so pay up!" Don't let your h's 'state of affairs' get into your peace of mind. Or heart.
"By affirming my own inner goodness and authority, I invite joy and love into my life"...
Come up with your own and find one that feels authentic. There is nothing negative or "don't do this" about it. It's all what you CAN do to be happy. You may borrow mine if it helps you, until you find your own inner truth. Like SMW, I find mine in God, "Higher Power", the Universe...whatever. He/It is there for YOU.
((( j )))
You are getting such great advice. Let it enter AND REMAIN in your heart.
The logistics, SMISTICS...of course that will overwhelm you and is such a great way to stay stuck. Remember that female doc I had as a client who really worried about ending up penniless on the streets? Okay so you won't earn 6 figures right away but your worst fears won't come true either. GET A GRIP A/K, you can do this.
I am not at all about 6 figures. In fact I doubt H could find a lower maintenance wife if he tried...no shopping, primping etc. I am just not able to come up with enough to pay these bills or move. It is so much. H is expecting a big check this week and I expect to pay many of the bills. After that I intend to go into L (either my relative or another) and Hs income will be reflected a little more accurately. I am not afraid to work. I AM afraid to be in a position where the work I take opens up H to be able to claim more time/custody with the kids. He is spiteful and I wouldn't put it past him. I believe they are better off with me. AND, of course, both his mother and my mother ended up unavailable to their kids because they had to work so much. And the lesson H and his sister got was that mom is worn out and miserable and dad gets to cakewalk. I believe that my work as a mother has value and I am hoping that we can transition rather than a huge shift in my schedule and availability to my kids. That hope translates to working on things that will afford me flexibility (my biz) and other projects. If it is spoiled to say that going from full time mom (with biz on side) to struggling and working long hours, I am spoiled. I do not think that there is anything more valuable than time and attention. However, I am more than willing to work and find a balance. And, if it comes down to it, I'll be applying at Walmart if my kids' needs are not being met. I just don't want to get screwed. I have a huge list to cover and my credit is plummeting. Maybe turn in my car, make agreements with CCs...sell some of H's sh*t...I'm sure seeing L again is necessary.
At one point, I too had some pretty real and pretty crazy fears...all the "stuff I helped us "EARN" would now all be gone and some OW would jump in my pool and I'd be poor and blah blah blah. IN your h's sitch - lots of that stuff may NEVER be earned, or "owned" but a lot is already owed b/c you both thought you "should" have more. You bought into his choices or allowed the delusions/ratonalization that you have to "look" successful to get clients so of course you have to wear the right clothes, drive the right car, and eat in Spagos...or at least, HE does...
This was one of our biggest battles. I'd eat cereal for dinner while he ate at fancy restaurants. I enabled it by staying and by not cultivating something for myself. I made concessions so I could be with my kids...I don't know if that is something I will regret. They are older and I have had a great deal of time with them and for that I am grateful.
For me I finally said, "it wouldn't be the end of the world if I had to live in my sister's basement, b/c I won't put up with THIS anymore"...
True that. I just know that if I move into a basement, he can get the kids from me (he has a room for them in his place)...maybe I'm wrong but that was a big issue for my friend, whether she had a room for her daughter. Anyway, it seems that my a** should be back in with L sooner than later to cover all of this. The time I have given to DB (if you can call it that) may work to my detriment. I don't know.
There are many lessons here for your kids and they are not all about "standing"....when your h disses you too much, or they are financially threatened, which for Pete's sake, YOU ARE...you will have to put them first. I don't know what exactly the t meant when she said you are not ready to divorce him. What does she think it'll take? Glad you are seeing the Clinical person but do they mean YOU need more help or what? (I don't think you are crazy, for the record...hate having to say that too....)
She meant (I believe) that I am not emotionally ready. That I need to learn how to set boundaries and deal with the consequences. For my part, I need to be less reactive and not fall apart so easily. Divorcing a narcissist is tricky and I am afraid. I need to feel more empowered so that I don't create the very outcome I am afraid of (my two cents on that). AND, I need to do this very quickly so I'm hoping the support IRL helps.
SMW's advice about finding peace--take it in. Get your "mantra". I'll share a "contract" I made with myself 20 years ago at a great workshop, that I keep about 75% of the time...and when it refers to "inner authority" it means boundaries and not owning or taking on someone else's 'poop'...and not letting THEM into your heart or your "jurisdiction".
(Since I'm a L, I love analogies. And it helps me to think of myself as a state. Like Iowa cannot tell Ohio, "Oh hey, WE in Iowa are really pissed about the tornado that came thru our capital, and want YOUR citizens to pay up...so pay up!" Don't let your h's 'state of affairs' get into your peace of mind. Or heart.
"By affirming my own inner goodness and authority, I invite joy and love into my life"...
Come up with your own and find one that feels authentic. There is nothing negative or "don't do this" about it. It's all what you CAN do to be happy. You may borrow mine if it helps you, until you find your own inner truth. Like SMW, I find mine in God, "Higher Power", the Universe...whatever. He/It is there for YOU.
((( j )))
I am making a list and going to take one action at a time. The whole of it is too overwhelming.
And I do need to connect with my higher power. One thing on my list is to visit a Buddhist Temple in my area...I am excited about that.
Calling creditors and making a list for H...aargh, painful but necessary.
And I do need to connect with my higher power. One thing on my list is to visit a Buddhist Temple in my area...I am excited about that.
OrangeDog likes this!
And I do need to connect with my higher power. One thing on my list is to visit a Buddhist Temple in my area...I am excited about that.
OrangeDog likes this!
Me too. Can't think of a better time than now to get on it.
So for all of H's assertions that he was so happy that his parents split up and never wanted them to get back together, I just found a journal we both wrote in describing ourselves in which H describes the saddest event of his childhood as being when his mom told him through tears that his parents were splitting. And he also wrote about his nice childhood except for the separation of his parents which he never really got over.
In case anyone wonders if the WAS revise history...wow, sad.
I am only posting because it moved me. I was looking for stuff to sell on e-bay (and found some)...
AAK -
That is trippy. Highlight it. Gift wrap it. Give it to him for your f'ing anniversary!
It is quite sad. I am just going to leave it for him and put a post-it that he might want to read what he wrote in it (there was other more amusing stuff)...
Good call. I tend to be too "SNARKY"!!!
Let us know how it goes w/that specialist C... I'm interested to hear some of their input on your situation.
Stay strong, friend!
Thanks. I will let you know.
Aaargh, S6 just screamed at me that he wants to "live with daddy"...guess he's more "fun" and doesn't have too many rules.
Aaargh, S6 just screamed at me that he wants to "live with daddy"...guess he's more "fun" and doesn't have too many rules.
Hey, A&K, time for my late night ramble... Hope I can make it make some sense...
This is when you need to remember, as my counselor pointed out to me many months ago, EVENTUALLY there will be a right side of history and a wrong side of history. Those of us watching your sitch from the outside can see which of the two of you will be on which side. Your kids will see it, too.
Kids are perceptive. Yeah, maybe they can be "bought" in the short term with candy and promises (but, the role of a parent isn't to be a best friend to one's children), but they will figure it out... I'd be willing to bet you will have a deeper long-term relationship with them than will he (not that it's a competition, but because what you will impart on them will serve them better than "no rules" will) AND you are poised for more growth... They'll see it... Look at
@healthydad's recent posts, he's been put through the wringer, but his kids "trust" him...
-AlexEN
Well, S6 went on to "you made him leave" over and over and S9 (Confucius) says "you can't make someone leave, people make their own choices" and S6 says "you made him leave because you were upset all the time"...ouch, true in many ways and yet I'm not so sure that H didn't have something to do with his coming up with that.
And then...of course..."Daddy doesn't like us anymore and that's why he doesn't want to be here. He doesn't like us." And S9 asking "do you think eventually he'll come home?"
And, why do I find it so hard to let this happen??? F*ck Sh*t F*ck...too much.
I'm ok. I handled it very well and I made it very clear that we both love them and hugged them and told them I am here for them if they need to talk or get these feelings out. At one point S6 said it makes him too upset to talk about and he is trying to make those feelings go away...
They just told H today that he's "the best dad in the world."
I'm ok. Just trying to "handle it" but sheesh.
That's because it is a "sheesher"...
Your S9 sounds like mine... My new theory is that we guys peak in maturity at age 9 and it's all downhill after that...
And, S6 heard you so when he is ready to talk about those feelings he'll know where to go...
So in an act of sheer idiocy I chose to let H know that we had a really rough night. He was sorry and suggested they are also playing too many video games.
Why didn't I think of that?
If I don't laugh at it, I'll croak.
"OUCH,, just fu$@*&* ouch!!"
G-- D--- him!...wth else can I say?.... Oh, okay. Two main things. First-The part about you working and worrying about income levels and not wanting to suddenly look as if you are the big earner b/c maybe you'll land a job for 6 months that pays flukishly well, I
S A WELL FOUNDED CONCERN and you are smart to take in. (That's why meeting up with Uncle L is a great idea) My child c also said "Don't start working NOW when their dad has left
or they'll lose both parents" and
then my L said, "The last thing you need to do after being a sahm 7 years, is suddenly earn money for the first time. THAT TIME WILL COME LATER....don't rush it." Made THAT choice simple.
So for legal reasons AND reasons that were good for the kids, I did keep it down some - but honestly can say, it was primarily FOR the kids.B/C I felt then that IF SOMEHOW I landed a great well paying job, the benefits
to me mentally would outweight the down side risk, esp since H's income is likely to always be much better than mine at it's best. But that choice did not present itself, as the jobs were not tempting enough to justify messing with the kids so for those two years, I was still mainly a sahm, with a few part time gigs that made me feel less terrified of my eeventual re-entry into the real world later on. THEN I got a job in Alaska (Long story) but the pay, and I was WITH H, was better than I ever earned before
and we were together. GO figure.
But your reasoning does make sense. I get it. However I was focusing on your general "Fear Factor" and keeping it at bay.
OTHER POINT--good for you finding your higher power however you do that. I was in a 12 step program years ago and til then, my beliefs were generalized, without a lot of thought about an "active R" with HP. More like "If I'm a good person, I'll end up okay". But for me, I have since found that there is a lot more to Him than I realized. Not to get all preachy, but for me, truly turning it over to Him, set me free for the first time in my life. Like I now have an "active R" with HP although it's nothing like some of these folks have. I wish. Sure sure, I sometimes take a problem back or have a New problem that I hold onto far too long. But now, When I finally rationally figure out, "J, this is Not something you can handle, really. You have to turn it over"...then I find that I really can do it for the most part,
and it really DOES make my life better, happier and more loving.I pray you'll find this to be the case in your life. And no matter how reasonable your planning and the logistics all get, know that you will be alright. You can stay here before you end up in a shelter okay? (You are basically hygenic, right? Ooops, there I go again with my judgmentalism....as if bathing means anything...okay, sorry, but I guess I am picky)
Seriously, you are soo on track. Keep it up.
And as for the journal entry of his...oh my my my. That is a good one...just when you thought YOU were crazy....you found "something a tad familiar...something that sounded as if you had heard it before, long ago in another galaxy....what was it?....what was that??? (Raising my hand higher than all the other kids....STOMPING MY FEET NOW)
"I KNOW THE ANSWER, PICK ME!! PICK ME!! I REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS!!...
...IT WAS THE TRUTH!!!
Your h's family had a horrible divorce in it that screwed up a bunch of people ALL b/c of your h's dad....gee, at least there isn't a pattern. Thank GOD (or HP or Buddha or Satan...) that your H sure knows how to Recognize AND break a cycle...hooray for h!
I will find a GOOD response for this discovery and revision of history. I don't have the time yet to give it a just response...really though, how SWEET.
Sheesh!! (It's a good word and sometimes it keeps me a tad less profane)
Well, I feel better. Hope you got a chuckle and know that in a few ways, the hard part is over. Sure, enough hard stuff ahead but the child c will help with that.
As for the "now" problems with the kids comments and the arrows into the heart----When my then d9 said "dad left b/c
YOU blah blah blah (mostly she said "he left b/c he didn't love "us"" enough, meaning HER, enough so usually I had to reassure her of her dad's love, rather than defend myself. But on occasion that did happen too sooo) on those occasions, my best recall is a variety of comments along the lines of "you know that's not true" or "Your dad and I made some choices.
You are not responsible for the choices he and I made, just like I'm not responsible for HIS choices..."
You can always go with the "I know this hurts and I'm sorry you are in pain. I love you very much..." AND then get off the topic without going detail by detail.
I believe They are really wanting to know that they are not to blame and that he will be in their lives in some way. REASSURANCES are key. It'd be nice if HE did some of that....Another thing our child T said was to let them have a twinge of hope, especially at first so they can have time to adapt. It is NOT a death (may feel like it but still) so in theory there is always a chance of a recon and we know that there really is a chance. If you say there isn't, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy that they WILL TELL YOUR H so you have to balance it out knowing you don't want to sound like you are pursuiing....it IS a balancing act A/K. It really is. NOthing wrong with saying, "just b/c we can't be m anymore doesn't mean we didn't/don't love each other" but be careful so they don't t hink you love THEM and will leave the home...kwim?
On one hand, Somehow project (and then make real) the GAL so your kids see
it, for their sake, for h's sake so he sees that you really are a woman only a fool would leave, and for YOUR Sake...AND on the other hand, you have to acknowledge that they are in pain and this isn't a picnic for anyone.
I pray you find some of this balance inside, and outside you. And I'm sending those prayers/positive energy beams of light (not mocking! Just using "inclusive yet alternative lingo, and I think i sound tres chic and very 'au currant', don't you?)
take care and keep us posted. I'll find a way to get in touch irl if you are up for it. Gee, maybe you have a nice stuff I can buy...? e.g., a desk...and some office furniture!
(( ))
j
Well, in H's defense he just texted offering to call me so I could explain what was happening with them. I texted him back but told him I am not going to tell him this stuff anymore because I want them to trust me and it is very important to them that they enjoy their time with him and they will bring this up when they are ready. And, that I know that regardless of what he says, he knows what they are going through. I did appreciate his concern and acknowledged it but not ready for a conversation.
On the income thing, Hun, I actually think I would take a six figure job if I could get one...depending on the hours
...I don't remember what I was saying in that post but it wasn't so much about me not wanting to make six figures more about me not wanting to disappear (as you related to) and me not laboring the way his and my mom did. I DO want a career though and I would and will work normal work hours in a heart beat. My kids need me sane more than anything.
One other ironic thing in that journal entry was regarding financial status in childhood (the book asks numerous questions), H said in there that his dad was always broke but took them on fancy vacations and his mom always worked multiple jobs to take care of them!!!
Oopsy, one of my entries said that my first thoughts about marriage were "what's the point? I'd be better off single and successful" and what I hoped for in a spouse "Me but as a man"...yikes, I guess my expectations were a bit skewed. Interestingly, one entry states something about my belief that we are all responsible for our own choices and feelings and my description of my spirituality was very similar to what it is now...
Anyway, yes I bathe...every day too. My kids, they stink.
I have family. I don't fear being homeless, I am just going to have to have faith that we can have a joyous time even if it is tough for a while. I wanted my kids' childhoods to be carefree and in nature and peaceful...I will still try to create that.
Thanks for the advice on the kids. I think I did a swell job and I'm glad they have me.
And, their dad does relish his time with them, whether it is out of guilt or for show, doesn't matter, they are really craving that from him. Of course, I have to be the disciplinarian which is challenging but I keep reminding myself that is my job.
The higher power connection comes and goes. My intellectual belief trails behind my heart belief (IYKWIM), I think meditation helps with that because it gets all of the monkey mind out of the way and I can connect on a deeper level rather than talking myself in and out of believing.
I will probably set up a FB alias soon. So wiped out. It would be great to meet you. No 2x4s in person okay?
Your S9 sounds like mine... My new theory is that we guys peak in maturity at age 9 and it's all downhill after that...
LOL...I would have believed that if not for you guys on the DB...
No 2 x 4's in person. What if you hit back?
(( j ))
Moi? Never.
I'll let you know when I'm signed up...
S6 came in my room with a big beautiful smile on his face, cuddled up next to me and whispered "I wish our family was back together." I just cuddled him and said "I understand." Now he seems to be in a good mood.
I have to remember that as hard as it is, I can be here for them.
H is moving some of his stuff out today.
We're going to go have fun.
Kids ARE cool.
When we're strong for them they make us stronger.
Seems like a good cycle...
I am so dreading that I might have to tell my boys that we are separating. I hope and pray it doesn't come to that. In the meantime, they are such a great source of happiness for me right now, and a good distraction.
For now, try to put your energy into what you want as much as possible.
Crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just lost it on S6 because he was screaming and throwing things at me and threatened to kill me.
F*ck.
So? Apologize to him and tell him you made a mistake.Tell him what he did was wrong, but that you overreacted to it. Your still his mother and he shouldn't treat you that way. Think about how you want to handle it next time because there will be a next time.
It is so sad, he is out of control. Such a sweet and cuddly little guy but if anything is not the way he wants it, he screams and cries and cusses and threatens. It is so extreme right now. I will address it with the T tomorrow...just so much to handle at once.
I get it and I'm not freaking out, I just feel so bad for him. He feels so out of control.
Called a little family meeting and we discussed some other ways we can communicate. Went ok. The most effective thing was later when I asked the kids for their expert advice as to how someone might get a kid to calm down and communicate even when they're upset. S6 wanted to go first and said "feed him"...he said he needs to be fed every 80 minutes...LOL, I will take heed. We also discussed a kid at his school who was out of control who learned how to calm down and how he might have done it. It was great because it exhibited that it is possible...and S6 was so intrigued all year with that kid so it was a good example.
Anyway, figuring it out.
Very cool move. Very, very cool Mom move.
S6 wanted to go first and said "feed him"...he said he needs to be fed every 80 minutes...LOL
That's great.
Funny enough, maybe that is what he needs...maybe a blood sugar thing or whatever. It came from the horse mouth so I'll go with it. Of course I'm sure he envisions me tossing him chocolate chip cookies every hour and a half...In the market today he played on the theme by trying to explain that cherry cream soda helps kids calm down and communicate. Older S pointed out the 46 grams of sugar and we both gave each other a no frickin way look.
Good stuff. The chaos is unnerving. Little guy knows how to garner negative attention on a dime...I want peace. S6 is like a little minnie H right now.
Don't you mean H is like a big S6?
Hmmm...yes except that S6 used to be the more mature one so I see him sort of modeling after H...kind of serious about that. I think it will be a phase. They want H to come home. When the reality sets in, we will get our own rhythm. Did I mention how f'ing sad this is???
Ok. Breathe. Back to work.
Yep. That's kind of like my D: "I'm not hungry....Can I have dessert?"
Hmmm...yes except that S6 used to be the more mature one so I see him sort of modeling after H...kind of serious about that...
Doesn't that further substantiate my theory from the other night? We peak in maturity at age 9...
Breathe...
Are you putting yourself in the same category of H? FYI- I don't see H here trying to determine how to save his marriage, put his kids first, do the right thing...no, maybe he peaked at 6 or something but if I thought he represented all men, I'd be even more depressed.
Ok, until I get to L, I have a quick question, if H takes things to his new place, is it a possession is 9/10 of the law kind of thing or is it still up for negotiation? I think it is the latter.
OUch ouch, it hurts...ripping apart...ouch. Cr*p F*ck Cr*p...so much loss...ouch...
Ok, keep going.
OrangeDog ain't a lawyer so make sure you call yours pronto.
But for piece of mind, in most states, stuff acquired during the M up to the point of separation, is to be divided equally. Includes house and property, retirement, savings, vehicles, furnishings, etc. There are exceptions for heirlooms, gifts, tools.
Just keep track of your things. H is not allowed to take off with a bunch of stuff, spend like crazy, hide stuff, or give stuff away.
I'm just feeling sick inside.
Take some video if you can.
Sorry you are feeling sick. Peace, Goldey
Take some video if you can.
Sorry you are feeling sick. Peace, Goldey
Good idea.
Can some one please tell me why everything is just coming for H...friends giving him furniture and money and paying for lunches and helping the poor guy out.
What am I missing????????????????
F*ckity f*ck f*ck...sh*t sh*t f*ck f*ck...can't he just get run over by a truck? Just saying...
A/K,
what are
you missing? (A normal h?). Honey
it's what HE is missing, which is pride and shame. He has no sense of shame and his pride is misplaced by a long shot...The property--anything inherited or gifted to an individual specifically (like inheritance really) is separate and anything you brought TO the M, IF it was kept separate which is why you should keep any and all inheritances, (you wish, right? Don't we all) but let's Say we have some rich uncle die and leave us a ton of money...keep that in a separate account you never commingle with family funds. This protects you AND btw, is usually good for tax purposes and can be protected from creditors if placed in a trust so there are lots of reasons to keep it separate so talk to a CPA if the time ever arises....and it cannot be split in half as marital assets. You could at least argue that the dining room set your parents gave you, hypothetically, is YOURS and not the "family's", so maybe keep track of that stuff. And don't let him pull what my bil did wiht the house furniture.
My bil div my older sister and He wanted the dining room stuff, the living room stuff AND the den, b/c he
"gave my sister all the kid's rooms"....can you believe it? The kids stuff is THEIRS!! No it didn't work with my bil, but I had to "explain" to him 4 times why his self serving approach would hurt him in court b/c he was literally unable to see another way. His selfishness blinded him...basic fairness eluded him for quite some time. Took a lot of discussion. Finally we "counter offered HIM the kids furniture for ALL the rest" and then he thought maybe we had a point...
Kids stuff is kids stuff for wherever they are...
and you split the "adult" stuff that doesn't have an obvious owner. Some heirloom given to you both, but really from one side of the family--set of dishes inherited at death but not specifcially naming you or h, should probably remain his or yours. BUT let me add something.
My h's grandmother died recently and left "me" some jewelry. 4 main pieces and our 3 kids are her only lineal descendants (God knows cousins from the woodwork are appearing, but that'a another story).
Anyhow, I wear one piece sometimes, and put the other three away for when my d's get older, and or when our s22 asks someone to marry him. Then the DIL can have it (IF she stays M to my son!!) Each child will get one of the pieces and I'll pass the 4th piece to whomever h wants. Don't know yet.
Point is I feel as if I'm "holding" it for them. I KNOW I won't sell it or give it away b/c I'm just not that type of person. The kids would have to be starving or need an organ transplant, you KWIM?
Anyhow, we who post and read here, all ache for you and in some small way I hope that lessens your suffering. We do feel your pain and wish we could make it go away. Each of us shoulders a bit of it, a part we can "handle" so that your burden is lighter.
Let yourself feel that, okay? Take care, you'll get thru this...you ARE getting thru it.
((( )))
]j-
Thanks 25, I hope he doesn't see a L because most things of value that were gifted were given to him. I sold anything that I could consider "mine" to throw him an elaborate birthday party last year (yep, I'm such a "bitch")...
I think I am just bitter and angry. I don't want him getting ANY furniture or anything else for that matter. How can someone do this and make off with goodies. I doubt he'll take any furniture anyway because it isn't awesome enough and he is so hooked up now, he'll get free sh*t from his fan club.
I am going to lose more than him because I CARE.
I thank you for taking some of the burden. Reading your words somehow did lift some of it off of me.
I know this is the HARD HARD HARD part.
I need to tap into some of my righteous indignation and somehow, despite the feeling I am being f*cked, know I am doing the right thing.
Peace.
Take a break A&K. It's OK.
Thanks 25, I hope he doesn't see a L because most things of value that were gifted were given to him. I sold anything that I could consider "mine" to throw him an elaborate birthday party last year (yep, I'm such a "bitch")...
Gee, it really shows...
I think I am just bitter and angry.
Don't worry too much about that as long as you are not bitter "INSIDE" but better... I don't want him getting ANY furniture or anything else for that matter. How can someone do this and make off with goodies. I doubt he'll take any furniture anyway because it isn't awesome enough and he is so hooked up now, he'll get free sh*t from his fan club.
I am going to lose more than him because I CARE.
Boy you are so wrong on that one. In the long run. You will gain, he will lose. You may not see it yet, but it's already happening...
I thank you for taking some of the burden. Reading your words somehow did lift some of it off of me.
That's why we are here... 
I know this is the HARD HARD HARD part.
I need to tap into some of my righteous indignation and somehow, despite the feeling I am being f*cked, know I am doing the right thing.
YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING...think about it. What healthy option do you have? If there were one, someone around here would have mentioned it...you are doing what you gotta do and if that were easy, we wouldn't need a place like this.
Peace.
YOU TOO!
It will get better and this too, shall pass. Trust that.
j-
F*ckity f*ck f*ck...sh*t sh*t f*ck f*ck...
I completely share this sentiment this evening... Aaargh!
Kids are sleeping at my parents. My sister came by. Alone in this house. I am pondering where we will move...seeing T tomorrow...then most likely to L.
I have this fist in my chest that restricts my breathing just a bit. I am in it. This slow tearing apart has been so agonizing.
This man who practically delivered our first son is now worse than a stranger to me...
On the upside, once I have lived through this, the experience I have been dreading so, I can hopefully find a new normal.
25, I haven't signed up on the FB but I will soon. I would like to get together IRL. I would love your input as I make a decision regarding where we will live.
You will find a new normal...
But, this is what I wanted to comment on before my eyes shut completely...
This man who practically delivered our first son is now worse than a stranger to me...
This is such an apt choice of words... I know I've seen it expressed my many on these boards at one time or another, but it just strikes me that so many of us now see the person we "
knew" so well as a complete stranger...
And all of a sudden I started to hear Billy Joel in my brain...
Well we all have a face
That we hide away forever
And we take them out and
Show ourselves
When everyone has gone
Some are satin some are steel
Some are silk and some are leather
They're the faces of the stranger
But we love to try them on
Well we all fall in love
But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets
There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised
That you never saw the stranger
Did you ever let your lover see
The stranger in yourself?
Don't be afraid to try again
Everyone goes south
Every now and then
You've done it, why can't
Someone else?
You should know by now
You've been there yourself
Once I used to believe
I was such a great romancer
Then I came home to a woman
That I could not recognize
When I pressed her for a reason
She refused to even answer
It was then I felt the stranger
Kick me right between the eyes
Well we all fall in love
But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets
There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised
That you never saw the stranger
Did you ever let your lover see
The stranger in yourself?
Don't be afraid to try again
Everyone goes south
Every now and then
You've done it why can't
Someone else?
You should know by now
You've been there yourself
You may never understand
How the stranger is inspired
But he isn't always evil
And he is not always wrong
Though you drown in good intentions
You will never quench the fire
You'll give in to your desire
When the stranger comes along.
You will find a new normal...
But, this is what I wanted to comment on before my eyes shut completely...
This man who practically delivered our first son is now worse than a stranger to me...
This is such an apt choice of words... I know I've seen it expressed my many on these boards at one time or another, but it just strikes me that so many of us now see the person we "
knew" so well as a complete stranger...
And all of a sudden I started to hear Billy Joel in my brain...
Well we all have a face
That we hide away forever
And we take them out and
Show ourselves
When everyone has gone
Some are satin some are steel
Some are silk and some are leather
They're the faces of the stranger
But we love to try them on
Well we all fall in love
But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets
There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised
That you never saw the stranger
Did you ever let your lover see
The stranger in yourself?
Don't be afraid to try again
Everyone goes south
Every now and then
You've done it, why can't
Someone else?
You should know by now
You've been there yourself
Once I used to believe
I was such a great romancer
Then I came home to a woman
That I could not recognize
When I pressed her for a reason
She refused to even answer
It was then I felt the stranger
Kick me right between the eyes
Well we all fall in love
But we disregard the danger
Though we share so many secrets
There are some we never tell
Why were you so surprised
That you never saw the stranger
Did you ever let your lover see
The stranger in yourself?
Don't be afraid to try again
Everyone goes south
Every now and then
You've done it why can't
Someone else?
You should know by now
You've been there yourself
You may never understand
How the stranger is inspired
But he isn't always evil
And he is not always wrong
Though you drown in good intentions
You will never quench the fire
You'll give in to your desire
When the stranger comes along. well written. But....OUCH! Sorry you are here.
j-
F*ckity f*ck f*ck...sh*t sh*t f*ck f*ck...
I'm not making light of the situation AAK...I just found this to be incredibly funny at the moment! I've got Diet Mountain Dew coming out of my nostrils right now!
F*ckity f*ck f*ck...sh*t sh*t f*ck f*ck...
I'm not making light of the situation AAK...I just found this to be incredibly funny at the moment! I've got Diet Mountain Dew coming out of my nostrils right now!
I would like to buy a vowel please. Are there any "U"s?
You're welcome.
I imbibed nothing last night, yet I feel hungover as if I had downed a bottle of Jack Daniel's before going to bed.
Today was another milestone. Took kids to H's new apartment. Sad, weird, I did ok, no tears, no drama, I "had to get going" but I did alright.
More later. Off to the new T.
not much worse than a hangover that didn't even get you "off" the night before...geez, guess what you really NEED to do, is drink.
I mean if you're gonna feel lousy anyhow?
Hey, hope your day is going better....know that the good days will come. A few now and then, and then more, and then more often than not. And then one day you'll say to yourself, "Hey, what's this? I'm HAPPY!" and you will be.
((( j )))
Hey 25, I guess we cross posted. Nice timing.
Uhhh...kind of confused. Saw T today. She was an interesting lady. We covered a lot. Her impression of H was that he is a malignant narcissist (woohoo) based on what I told her of course.
Some of her advice threw me off like...tell the kids H is coming back*!? I told her I can't do that because I don't think he is and I don't know that I could take him back.
She suggested that we should spend family time together for the kids sake. I told her right now I just can't because his treatment of me is too much and I get too emotional. That I have been trying for months to do that and I have reached my limit. But, I am going to think about what I am capable of.
She told me that I need to stroke his ego and when I said I've been doing that for months. She asked, "well if you've done all of this, why are you coming to therapy?" I liked the challenge. I said "because I need to be able to take care of myself and my children and stop being all about him." So we went down that road a little.
I liked that she understood the dynamic and his behavior.
She seems to think he is still acting out and from a narcissistic injury (which I suspect was me withholding sex and him feeling rejected)...she does not see him as done and feels I need to be prepared for more acting out.
She said if it were her, she would not allow him to have the kids at all until he seeks help...I have to probe that a little more with her. Not sure if that is within my control.
I liked that she was a little aggressive with me. I can be a bit of a know it all and I need the challenge. She was also very impressed with my ability to separate his sh*t from mine and my awareness of what was happening...
I'm kind of baffled, but we did resolve that my focus is on maintaining my own mental health and vision of myself and I need to take whatever actions support that.
There was more but, I think that's enough for now. I am going back on Monday because I am just confused about so much of what we covered and what actions I am to take. She did not support me filing for D. She thinks that other steps should be taken first and that H should get help too.
Oh, even scarier, when I told her that the only way our R works is if I keep my mouth shut and boost H's ego, she said that is how Rs with narcissists work. Ummm....I don't think I can do that in a M...As you know, I have an opinion and like to talk...
Just dealing with so much money stress and having to communicate with H is hard. I think if I can accept that even under the worst case scenario, I will be ok, I can get through this.
She said D would get very ugly with H.
Oh, and she said if I start working and doing well, he will act out more...fun stuff.
like...tell the kids H is coming back*!?
Hunh?
Did she 'splain herself?
I think she thought at that point that (given her expertise) that H will be coming back but it was waaaaay off the mark. I have to revisit that with her.
Everything is spiraling. He will not leave me alone and he thinks I am messing with him by not rolling with whatever he wants...basically I asked him to please leave me alone.
He even told me I better change MY attitude or things are going to get ugly.
Then apologized and said he appreciates me "Love (yes), Mr. [AK])" The yes is verbatim...
I'm losing my mind.
I think she thought at that point that (given her expertise) that H will be coming back but it was waaaaay off the mark. I have to revisit that with her.
Everything is spiraling. He will not leave me alone and he thinks I am messing with him by not rolling with whatever he wants...basically I asked him to please leave me alone.
He even told me I better change MY attitude or things are going to get ugly.
Then apologized and said he appreciates me "Love (yes), Mr. [AK])" The yes is verbatim...
I'm losing my mind.
Okay, but now I'm kind of confused, too; I thought he was living with his cool friends... How is it that there is so much contact between the two of you?
We're under one roof (two stories apart, so I guess it's more like living in separate apartments in the same building), but we don't seem to have nearly the number of interactions you have... How can you limit them so you can do what you need to do?
He signed something using "Mr."?
I remember getting the cold shoulder for weeks once when I signed a card to W on Mother's Day from "The Kids and Daddy-O"...
Maybe that was the beginning of the end...
He even told me I better change MY attitude or things are going to get ugly.
"Going to"????
F*ck that. F*ck him and f*ck the f*cking horse he f*cking rode in on, friggin f*ckin Frog F*ck!
That is TOTAL DISRESPECT. HE is going to tell YOU what YOU have to do to make HIS bullsh*t easier on HIM? F*CK THAT!
You know what we used to say in the Army? Raise your right hand if you like the French; raise both hands if you ARE the French.
Putz.
He even told me I better change MY attitude or things are going to get ugly.
"Going to"????
F*ck that. F*ck him and f*ck the f*cking horse he f*cking rode in on, friggin f*ckin Frog F*ck!
That is TOTAL DISRESPECT. HE is going to tell YOU what YOU have to do to make HIS bullsh*t easier on HIM? F*CK THAT!
You know what we used to say in the Army? Raise your right hand if you like the French; raise both hands if you ARE the French.
Putz.
Hey, Smiley got his Mojo back!
Two things.
RE: the T, I'm confused and think maybe she thought you were trying to make things work with h and her advice shifted when she realized that YOU are on your own now and want THAT to be a bit easier....we'll see I guess.
Second thing...is your h...F#@$ HIM and the horse he rode in on! Gee, he was being SO GREAT AN ALL...unbelievable gall. Unmitigated arrogance and he is a narcissist AND a bastard too...okay, I should shut up now. Sorry...
moreover-
English is my mother's second language so some of her idioms are interesting but in the words of my mother, your husband "is a real jerk from jerk town"...
He sure is showing his colors. You should thank him for giving you such clarity about making the right choice to dump him after all this poop...
@#$%^&!!!
On that note, good night...(now where is my ambien?) Your h has made ME so mad I cannot sleep, and that's sooo NOT cool. Great, guess an anti-histamine will do... Gee, can't wait to meet him! I'll be super nice...or will I?
((( j- )))
I think she thought at that point that (given her expertise) that H will be coming back but it was waaaaay off the mark. I have to revisit that with her.
Everything is spiraling. He will not leave me alone and he thinks I am messing with him by not rolling with whatever he wants...basically I asked him to please leave me alone.
He even told me I better change MY attitude or things are going to get ugly.
Then apologized and said he appreciates me "Love (yes), Mr. [AK])" The yes is verbatim...
I'm losing my mind.
Okay, but now I'm kind of confused, too; I thought he was living with his cool friends... How is it that there is so much contact between the two of you?
We're under one roof (two stories apart, so I guess it's more like living in separate apartments in the same building), but we don't seem to have nearly the number of interactions you have... How can you limit them so you can do what you need to do?
He signed something using "Mr."?
I remember getting the cold shoulder for weeks once when I signed a card to W on Mother's Day from "The Kids and Daddy-O"...
Maybe that was the beginning of the end...
No on the "Mr." Sorry I wrote it that way I meant to include the mister in the [] thingys. He signed his initials. What I meant was that it actually said "Love (yes)" which was weird.
On the contact, well, that has been a problem from the beginning. When he left, I almost immediately went into privacy mode and stopped contacting him and he has barely given me a day without contact (except when he was away more recently where I suspect he may have/had OW.
He finds reasons. Today it was that the kids wanted to come get some things and when I took a few minutes to respond (I really thought he should just do something with them and leave me alone but checked in with a friend to see if I was being reasonable)...after 4 minutes he told me it was too late.
Then he needed to tell me something S6 told him my dad said which H found offensive (Pot meet kettle) and I told him basically to leave my dad alone and me for that matter.
Then he needed to let me know I couldn't pick up the kids at our agreed time (early tomorrow because I will be in his area) because he was taking them out and they'd be out late. Way to piss mommy off.
Then he said the kids want to stay with him tomorrow night to which I said no, we have plans. PLUS, and I didn't even get into this, with a visitation schedule, he needs to just tell them tomorrow night they are with mommy and he will see them Saturday. But, the point was and this is my interpretation, "I'm awesome daddy guy with the fun place and no rules and they like me better...neener neener neener."
Then he sent the email commenting on how he was trying to be nice but I sh*t all over him (he texted this with little icons mind you so it was hard to read at first)...and then that I better accept that our marriage (wedding ring icon) was in the toilet (icon) and change my attitude or this is going to get (icon of burning flame)...
Yes, this is the grown man who has moved on.
Dammit, how am I going to do this??????
Two things.
RE: the T, I'm confused and think maybe she thought you were trying to make things work with h and her advice shifted when she realized that YOU are on your own now and want THAT to be a bit easier....we'll see I guess.
Second thing...is your h...F#@$ HIM and the horse he rode in on! Gee, he was being SO GREAT AN ALL...unbelievable gall. Unmitigated arrogance and he is a narcissist AND a bastard too...okay, I should shut up now. Sorry...
moreover-
English is my mother's second language so some of her idioms are interesting but in the words of my mother, your husband "is a real jerk from jerk town"...
He sure is showing his colors. You should thank him for giving you such clarity about making the right choice to dump him after all this poop...
@#$%^&!!!
On that note, good night...(now where is my ambien?) Your h has made ME so mad I cannot sleep, and that's sooo NOT cool. Great, guess an anti-histamine will do... Gee, can't wait to meet him! I'll be super nice...or will I?
((( j- )))
Well, H is a sick puppy and I'm part of a very sick dynamic. And, there really does need to be a method to my approach because my kids are in the middle.
Not sure about the T. I really need to understand why she would advise me to tell the kids H is coming home. Otherwise, I think she was pretty good. She was a bit weird. How the hell do I know I've got the right one? Narcissism is a very specific disorder and I need someone who gets it.
Anyway, it pains me that I stressed anyone out with this. He's not worth it, right?
Oh, and I made pretty clear that I would like to avoid D IF there was a way for us to have a healthy R. But otherwise, I am about me and my kids.
She was kind of all over so we'll see. I'm going back on Monday.
Smiley - you really are the best proponent of the English language in these situations I have come across in a very long time.
A breath of fresh air?
And so very insightful and pertinent ;-)
CT
Well,
@mac-ct, things might look different there in Suthafrika. I'm looking at my globe right now, and I mean, wow, how do you handle always being upside-down like that?
@AlexEN:
Hey, Smiley got his Mojo back!
Nahhh. It's just that you see someone like
@aliveandkicking, the struggle she goes through, the progress she's making, and then Monsoor Le Shmedlap busts out something like that? Makes me want to puke.
Oh, and I made pretty clear that I would like to avoid D IF there was a way for us to have a healthy R. But otherwise, I am about me and my kids.
I admire your dedication AAK! I think you're getting stronger and seeing things with more clarity...good for you! You are a lot stronger than you think. You realize, as Michelle does, that divorce is not the answer to marital problems. Sometimes it can't be avoided, but...you continue to DB and remain committed, and I'm in your corner. I hope you have a great day.
ps - keep fightin' for it!
Not a minute of sleep. I'm down. And I mean DOWN.
I don't see a way out of this. I have knives in my stomach. I don't think anyone in my family understands what is happening. I feel like the crazy one. I don't know if that woman can help, she almost instilled more fear in me (how hard it will be to D him). What am I going to do, go on to therapist #6...I feel like no one can help me. My kids' little hearts are right in the middle of this...
And, what is wrong with me that I'm not in a better mood? H seems to be jovial most of the time.
I'm rambling, no sleep and I mean none and leaves me in what shape for my kids? And to work?
I am going to a meeting this morning for an organization I am volunteering for just to channel some of my energy and meet some people.
I will try to pull it together. I feel physically ill.
Oh, and I made pretty clear that I would like to avoid D IF there was a way for us to have a healthy R. But otherwise, I am about me and my kids.
I admire your dedication AAK! I think you're getting stronger and seeing things with more clarity...good for you! You are a lot stronger than you think. You realize, as Michelle does, that divorce is not the answer to marital problems. Sometimes it can't be avoided, but...you continue to DB and remain committed, and I'm in your corner. I hope you have a great day.
ps - keep fightin' for it!
Dude, I am fighting for my sanity at this point. But thanks.
I'm down. And I mean DOWN.
Coming at you in the alt.
Not a minute of sleep. I'm down. And I mean DOWN.
...
I will try to pull it together. I feel physically ill.
I know what it feels like not to have slept, to struggle to pull it together to be able to work, to be so stressed you feel sick.
It does get better. It does go away. I promise.
One day at a time.
You're OK. You'll succeed.
Not a minute of sleep. I'm down. And I mean DOWN.
...
I will try to pull it together. I feel physically ill.
I know what it feels like not to have slept, to struggle to pull it together to be able to work, to be so stressed you feel sick.
It does get better. It does go away. I promise.
One day at a time.
You're OK. You'll succeed.
Yep, I thought I had made some progress from that place but I am so jacked up right now.
I don't see a way out of this. I have knives in my stomach. I don't think anyone in my family understands what is happening. I feel like the crazy one. I don't know if that woman can help, she almost instilled more fear in me (how hard it will be to D him). What am I going to do, go on to therapist #6...I feel like no one can help me. My kids' little hearts are right in the middle of this...
First step, slow down, friend. This is a pattern in your sitch -- you make progress, you move forward, then Monsoor does or says, or doesn't do or say, something, and you slide baaaaaaccccckkk, all the way back, all the way back to looking at this thing, la cosa nostra, this thing of ours, in its leviathan-like nakedness, in its full monstrosity -- and you try to fight it, David versus an ever-expanding Goliath.
But "this" -- this is a Big Problem. It's Too Much Problem.
Around middle school, when we start learning (being forced to learn) algebra and the dreaded "word problems," one of the first lessons that is drummed into the brain-pan is that we have to break the problem into smaller chunks. That's what those stupid parentheses are for.
There's a similar dynamic in interpersonal conflicts. It's called "Incrementalism" in the theory of negotiating strategies. It doesn't always work, but it often does. And it doesn't require a lot of knowledge or training or anything other than common sense.
Because it's exactly the way instructions are written, exactly the way recipes are written. You can't have a peach melba, for example, until you first get a peach.
No great thing is created suddenly, any more than a bunch of grapes or a fig. If you tell me that you desire a fig, I answer you that there must be time. Let it first blossom, then bear fruit, then ripen.
(Epictetus, Discourses, Book I, Chapter 15)
Break what you're facing into more manageable chunks. Break those chunks into even-more manageable chunks. Solve a problem. One problem. One teeny-tiny, itty-bitty problem. Reward yourself. Move forward.
I understand your frustration, believe me. I was every bit where you are as you are. And the thing that saved me wasn't mojo or the Spiers Doctrine -- but keep that under your hat, okay, I have a reputation around here
-- but was simply recognizing that this thing was too much to take in that way. It was like trying to sip water from a fire hydrant.
And I understand the temptation, the desire, the drive, the internally generated demand, the
need to understand why. Why? Why why why?
But you have to let it go. And it sucks, but yeah -- you're the only one who can do that and who can make the decision to do it. The why just doesn't matter at the end of the day. In a sense, it's like the difference between "organic" acting and the Adler approach. The back-story is irrelevant. What happened, happened. You have to confront the here and now.
One problem at a time. One day at a time. Or if that's too big a bite to chew, one meal-time at a time. One hour at a time. One minute at a time. One
now at a time. Now. And now. And now. And now....
Robert Louis Stevenson, author of
Treasure Island (among other things), once wrote, "Life is not a matter of having good cards but of playing a poor hand well." Life dealt you a hand -- dealt us all a hand -- and the task, the challenge, the obligation, the need is to play it.
As @Coach says, you can handle it. But you don't have to handle it alone. That's what we're all here for. So your family doesn't get it. I had to put my foot down to stop the smack-talk about WAW in my family -- dig it? I'm DEFENDING the woman who is LEAVING me to my OWN family? Because I can't have loose talk like that around my (her) children. So the family....
You have us. All of us here, and we all have each other. And it's not a perfect substitute for real connection like in a family, but by the same token it has none of the baggage associated with family.
I'll close with another quote, this time from the Nobel Prize laureate Albert Schweitzer:
Those who have learned by experience what physical and emotional pain and anguish mean are a community all over the world. They are united by a secret bond.
I'm one of Smiley's people. I live in the secret world -- the world of that secret bond. You are, too. And so are Thinker and AlexEN and SMW and Sara and Coach and Greek and Gypsy and and and.....
You're not alone. You don't have to face it alone. You don't have to struggle alone.
One second, one minute, one hour, one day. One
challenge. At a time.
Thanks, that helps. Going to this meeting despite the urge to get back into bed. I'll read this again a couple times.
As a noted scribe once marveled,
"I love how these threads seem to intertwine"... well, it was something to that effect...
I just meandered over to
@Gardener's thread after catching up on this and
@Smiley's and others' threads when I happened upon this post... which ties very closely to what appears to be the current theme running through several threads at once:
TRUST...
[So, as an aside in response to @Smiley's question on his thread, I think a thread on TRUST is very topical. Trust, both extrinsically (trusting others) and intrinsically (trusting oneself), is hammered by the range of emotions felt at times like this... There is even a body of academic research on this... I found this Abstract:
We find that incidental emotions significantly influence trust in unrelated settings. Happiness and gratitude, emotions with positive valence, increase trust, and anger, an emotion with negative valence, decreases trust. Specifically, we find that emotions characterized by other-person control (anger and gratitude) and weak control appraisals (happiness) influence trust significantly more than emotions characterized by personal control (pride and guilt) or situational control (sadness). These findings suggest that emotions may be more likely to be misattributed when the appraisals of the emotion are consistent with the judgment task than when the appraisals of the emotion are inconsistent with the judgment task..]
But, the post on
@Gardener's thread said this:
My two cents. You are very hard on yourself (I can relate). You may be attempting to pursue this like a marathon at the end of which you win the trophy (W)...at a certain point I don't believe there is a chance the WAS will forgive or believe your changes if you are still grasping for how to break through to them. One who is strong and secure and more desirable judges him/herself by his/her own standards (now that you are on such a positive track you can probably trust yourself more).
...Very basically, you know that pain and suffering are parts of life and parts of you and you refrain from resisting or trying to avoid those feelings. You live and know they are there and they don't own you.
I keep thinking that if I was evolved enough, I could get through this without so much pain, but my best days are one's in which I let it be. I am human...
So, you, all of you, including a rough night, or sad feelings, or questions on here, or humility, confusion, whatever are all ok. You are a good and sincere guy it seems. Again, I think you can trust yourself more and accept that you are human.
, I know you know who wrote that... It was very wise advice...
@Smiley is right, you don't have to handle it alone, but even when you ARE alone, trust your own counsel to others...
TRUST YOURSELF MORE...
-AlexEN
Lots of good stuff here a/k....but I thought of something I wanted to pass on before work today. Remember Alec Baldwin's meltdown on the voice mail he left his daughter? his career was NOT helped and he barely recovered. He is a talented actor with a lot of friends but it took its' toll and his tone has changed big time.
Soooo I was just wondering about you and these voicemails your "soon to be famous" h leaves you, or his notes, or his actions OR his inactions, sins of commission and omission, so to speak...I was just wondering what a wonderful Public Relations bonanza he'd be in People magazine (I MEAN WHEN HE GETS FAMOUS OF COURSE....OF COURSE!!!)
And if your h gets to the point where he believes he could be famous, you may have a weapon up your sleeve you forgot about. NOT saying you have to use it, but I sure would ask him what "his public" or "his clients" would think/feel about him, OR THEIR FANS ABOUT THEM-- IF IT got out that their manager/hero/agent/ assistant-or whatever he calls himself now--is a jerk from jerktown, leaving his wife and kids w/o money, while mooching off rich people and forgetting to pay his bills AND forgetting to actually file for div --BUT going ahead and dating and whatever....but wait, "sources say he LOVES HIS KIDS" and by saying it, that makes him a good father of course... Look, celebs can and often are stupid, but not as much as you or he may think. When it comes to leaving kids and guys leaving "starter wives" as your h has done, many in the industry see right through it. THey don't trust contracts with people like that. Trust matters.
Keep track of these "not soloving HATE messages" and or journal about them, with dates. That will help you a lot with the kids in court, it's NOT DIRTY,or below the belt; it's honest unlike him, and besides, aren't you tired of feeling impotent? Finally, you may have a weapon and it's HIS MOUTH and there is sweet irony in that.
On that happy note....gotta get some sleep. No, I'm not blaming your h for my insomnia (the start of it yes, but not the constant waking up. I did get some writing done and now have to go "sell" it.
Talk to you soon. Hope my idea is as smart as it sounds to me now, as I'm sleep deprived. Last night I thought it was "damn smart!"...
(( j ))
Thanks Alex, that was a
jerker...
Yes 25, I have thought of that. I could embarrass him and some of his high profile friends. But, you know...I'm keeping that ace in my pocket. I'm not used to this.
Kids were out late with H, exhausted, at a dinner party. S6 sobbed and clung to H when I got him today...doesn't want to go with a friend tomorrow (which has been scheduled for weeks) because he wants to be with daddy tomorrow instead.
After I peeled S6 off of Daddy and left, H texted about coming here and I said I think it is best to do it another day because the kids are exhausted and don't want to go anywhere. He asked if he could please just get a couple of things for work and I said to give me an hours notice. Then he said "hard to see you like this." I didn't respond.
Countless texts before that from him letting me know his checks did not arrive and he has no money, to changing the pick up location for kids, to professing his desire to "PLEASE get along,"...
I am working for a friend tomorrow for $60...that help with the 10K
.
Kids are now assessing what they want to take from their room here to take to daddy's.
I guess I am just "embracing the suck" right now.
Sorry for the fans of PMA...
In addition, I got to listen to a whole car ride of the kids recalling all of the funny stories Daddy told at the party last night.
And H's mom was there when I picked up kids and was telling me to just try (because I guess I looked stressed out when S6 was sobbing) and she said that "he is really hurting" and "he is trying to come up with money to give you." I couldn't deal, I told her "you have no idea how he has treated me. I can't take anymore, I'm done." And I told her I am going to work tomorrow.
Waste of flippin' energy. Too tired to keep it together.
Sorry you are feeling this way right now. It does suck.
We're only human. Go out with the kids for a bit and just turn off your phone. go out and breathe the air, close your eyes and listen to the world. Let all of the feelings just flow out of you.
You can do it. Prayin' for ya.
Playing with water balloons, good clean cheap fun!
Oh, and f*ck the bills. Carless in LA isn't that bad...
Playing with water balloons, good clean cheap fun!
Big thumbs up. You *really* need stuff like that, as wet and messy and silly as possible, to take you outta your head right now, IMHO. Good for you.
Oh, and f*ck the bills. Carless in LA isn't that bad...
That's the spirit... Sorry about the tear-jerker...
Oh no. Not in a bad way. Just didn't even relate to my own words...it is always easier to give advice than to follow it. It was good advice though.
...it is always easier to give advice than to follow it. It was good advice though.
Probably true for each and everyone of us, except
@Coach but that's because he's made of Kryptonite.
[@Smiley,
won't there be a chapter on that in the companion book called Portfolio Risk: Why It's Easier to Give Advice Than to Act On It .]
S9 just told me that he likes his dad's new place and that daddy said " mommy thought you wouldn't like having two places."
Gee, I guess that means this was a good idea and better for everyone...you know mommy? Always thinking those crazy thoughts about having two places being tough on kids. Oh, and why does our 9 year old need to be told that I thought that????
Forget it. Yes, I sent H a friendly email. Shoot me.
Well, he apologized and said he felt stupid for saying it.
I said "thanks, I don't always say the "right" thing either."
Okay, that was better....
Ok. Just got a completely sane and lucid phone call from H saying that he couldn't stand to see me looking sad today and he knows he blows it when he communicates with me and he would like me to let him know what I don't want him to do. And he said something about just having me tell him for now what I want (communication-wise, not R) and therapy doesn't work (most recent therapy actually improved communication substantially by his assessment, but ok...I had alluded in my email to the fact that we are going to need to get help, he clearly wants to avoid that especially after his recent behavior)...
So I emailed and told him I appreciated the message and I need some time to think about it (yay me)...
So now he is pretty close to perfect in communication and this is because I pushed him away, said leave me alone and looked like an emotional wreck this morning. Per therapist, when he sees me doing well, he acts out in one way, when he sees me down, the guilt kicks in and he goes the other way.
I will be responsive to his good behavior and keep the boundaries and see how that goes...running back to the therapist on Monday.
And finally, my dear friends, just for your pleasure sock me with a giant 2x4 for that tiny little thought..."man, if he could be this guy, I could perhaps be with him..."
Oh right AK, you have to be a frickin' sleepless, miserable, angry mess for him to be decent...right, sounds like our M.
I'll tell you what has kinda-sorta been working for me (us) recently.
WAW and I have the same problem -- constant misinterpretation of meaning, even in written comms (particularly in written comms) -- because (in my POV) we're both intensely suspicious of each other.
So I have taken to writing in what is an admittedly irritating, but not at all misinterpretable, form of dull-as-dishwater writing.
I do only facts. I take out all modifiers (-ly forms, etc.). Every thought / response / question gets its own line -- no paragraphs. And I start every single one with "I state that..."
According to her it bugs the crap out of her -- hell, it bugs the crap outta me -- but I've noticed that her responses have become infinitely more moderate, focused, specific, and (if one can mind-read for a skosh) "balanced."
When she replies (if a reply is needed), she has taken to cutting-and-pasting the (my) original text and then following it with her reply to that specific point.
I have followed her example and done the same.
At the end of it you get these incredibly convoluted looking e-mail chains, but also direct and to the point responses.
And by taking all the modifiers out ("totally," "absolutely," "unbelievably"), all the emotion gets washed out, too.
Aaaah...someday, "anewnormal"...for now "aliveandkicking"...
SLAP!!
Okay? Good. Now then, tell him communication will be vastly improved when he refrains from threats every time he doesn't get his way, or you don't respond within, what was it, 4 MINUTES?
That his threats to "get ugly" ARE in themselves ugly. That they are stressful not b/c
you fear losing the kids b/c you know you are a great mom but you fear the collateral damage to them, which he sooo wants to pretend is minimal, but which is NOT a priority to him in reality for it is EXACTLY why he told the kids that you bad mouthed the idea of having two places. He uses them to make himself the hero/victim and you the bad guy and he does NOT CARE about doing that, or that it's bad for them, except for the seconds it takes for him to wonder
if he doesn't quite look as heroic as he thought everyone saw him as...
I actually read in a child's book that (ALMOST) sounded pro-divorce, ( I think that it was written with the idea of "okay it does suck but it's a done deal so now let's ONLY focus on the good stuff,
like having extra toys!"...approach.
In that book it said something about being "lucky to have TWO ROOMS b/c some kids have to share only one"...blah blah blah puke!
I think you are grossly misreading something, or I am.
[/b]...but Don't you dare look sad again in front of him. I don't care if you think that brings out the "best" in him, (WTH?????) YOU MEAN PITY?? and BTW, THAT DID NOT bring him HOME...remember?
You want to be miserable the rest of your life so he won't be a total bastard to you? Gee that's some trade off. IIs that some sort of "win" and if so, for whom? And what's that supposed to teach the kids? [b]Remember, you are the adult here. Don't worry A/K. THe kids will get it. Good lord, I know this based on so much experience with countless diovorce cases between me and a dozen or so attorneys and a hundred friends who've been thru this.
THe kids figure it out and you don't even have to tell them. In fact, it's best you don't. Though Puppy will argue that point, at this age it's a moot point b/c they're so young. But in your h's case, I don't even care. He's a "jerk from jerktown" (and I promise I won't say that again if it hurts your ego or feelings. I'm sure he can be very charming...whateves...so was Ted Bundy and Charles Manson...seriously.)
Look, this stage of all the stages, possibly sucks the most...so This SUCKS...it is what it is. 
BUT
good for you telling your MIL she has no idea what he says or does to you or has put you through. Thank GOD you gave her a teaspoon of reality. SOMEONE HAS TO.... If you had gone on and on negatively spiraling about him, then that might have backfired. But you said it just right
so that she knows, she doesn't know...and you didn't fill her in with all the gory details...perfect, all things considering...and if she asks him and he glosses over, he'll look even worse. She knows you are not the crazy one and she knows HE MOVED OUT OF HIS HOME AND LEFT HIS WIFE AND KIDS....come on, what's there to say?? IF you are secretly a murderous lunatic, why didn't he take the kids? Oh, oops, that blows that theory...OH geez, A/K, I feel bad for you. So here..
.SIGH SIGH SIGH and STOMP STOMP STOMP, and let me add that I am sending prayers and positives to you A/K....just wish I could do more. HEY, try a little of that thought stopping stuff CG posted to Kevin if you haven't already. It helped me when my dad died, and when h was gone and i was obsessing about what/who/when etc. In truth, his fellowship was literally about an 18 hour day, plus his commute to a room he rented from a 77 y/o woman I MET....so in reality, I'm thinking he didn't get a lot of attention in that area that I feared, and he came home every other weekend.
So much wasted negative spiraling, and I had NO CONTROL anyhow.. oh yeah!! we keep forgetting that...Serenity prayer time....I'm sending it to you...
(( j ))
Just a slap?
My email regarding communication is going to be super straight forward.
I'll probably run it by here or by T before sending. It is too important.
This was our R. It is good to see it so clearly. I would be a cup half full, solution oriented person seeking rhythm and grown up interaction. H would act out until I lost my sh*t, fell apart, acted like a maniac, then he'd feel guilty and try to appease me, tell me what I wanted to hear...etc.
No, it is not ok. And, I intend to get help for me And stipulate in our agreement (that I am formulating in my mind to be discussed with L next week) that we both are in counseling individually with a pro who specializes in narcissism/personality disorders. He can fight me on that but well, you know where that'll end up.
I am getting much clearer and for now, biding time, for my sanity and the kids, I will ride the calm wave while it lasts, knowing that things change quickly over here in AK land.
H's mom is a drama queen, narcissist, enabler...God love her, she busted her a** to provide for her kids (note here on the "they'll figure it out"), H sure hasn't figured it out.
I will do everything in my power to stop this cycle and that does not mean staying married. It means healthy parents for my kids. If it has to be just me, so be it but I think I have a lot of leverage to get H on board and an expert might be able to get somewhere with him. I would rather give up on the M (cuz I do think he'll come back, just relatively unchanged without help). If we completely split and each get help,
that is worth it...
Oh, who decides what emoticon goes by my name?
Just a slap?
My email regarding communication is going to be super straight forward.
I'll probably run it by here or by T before sending. It is too important.
This was our R. It is good to see it so clearly. I would be a cup half full, solution oriented person seeking rhythm and grown up interaction. H would act out until I lost my sh*t, fell apart, acted like a maniac, then he'd feel guilty and try to appease me, tell me what I wanted to hear...etc.
No, it is not ok. And, I intend to get help for me And stipulate in our agreement (that I am formulating in my mind to be discussed with L next week) that we both are in counseling individually with a pro who specializes in narcissism/personality disorders. He can fight me on that but well, you know where that'll end up.
I am getting much clearer and for now, biding time, for my sanity and the kids, I will ride the calm wave while it lasts, knowing that things change quickly over here in AK land.
H's mom is a drama queen, narcissist, enabler...God love her, she busted her a** to provide for her kids (note here on the "they'll figure it out"), H sure hasn't figured it out.
Or has he? Isn't it possible he is exactly like his dad and that terrifies him? b/c in times of crisis, we all revert to what we know, even when we know it's bad? (And he IS close to his mother despite/b/c of what??)
But back up, that statement about reverting to what we know, only gets the cycle broken when we replace the old bad unhealthy ways with Positive healthy ones...so you'll find OR CREATE that in your life and your kids will see it. So there won't be a "drama queen busting her ass" FOR THEM....but a woman raising her children to be kind, loving, smart ADULTS....and if one of them pulls something like THIS to their spouse, gee A/K, will you just sit there and tell their spouse to "TRY"?????? wth? No, you'll 'splain behind the woodshed...
I will do everything in my power to stop this cycle and that does not mean staying married. It means healthy parents for my kids. If it has to be just me, so be it but I think I have a lot of leverage to get H on board and an expert might be able to get somewhere with him. I would rather give up on the M (cuz I do think he'll come back, just relatively unchanged without help). If we completely split and each get help,
that is worth it...
F
orget the "leverage" you think you have, and prepare to raise them on your own. It may take awhile but there's a good chance he's going to disappear for long periods of time. Maybe you'll find OM to hang out with and maybe you'll introduce him to your kids someday and maybe they'll see HIM as a constant, like my ex sil has with her new h, b/c my idiot brother HAD to leave her to go find a war....no, he's not in the military....and he's a good son and a good brother. But he sucks as a h, and is a pleasant absentee father... My x sil is much happier now. NOT Saying you'll be ready for that soon or ever, but if you stay married to this non husband, you never will.... Sorry!!
don't know how the emoticons get there, I just know how they get inside the boxes, not outside....see, OMG I can't see outside the box!!
j-
Lock and Load 25!!!!
So there won't be a "drama queen busting her ass" FOR THEM....but a woman raising her children to be kind, loving, smart ADULTS....and if one of them pulls something like THIS to their spouse, gee A/K, will you just sit there and tell their spouse to "TRY"?????? wth? No, you'll 'splain behind the woodshed...
Sing it loud, sista...nail hit precisely on head!
Wouldn't it be nice if H's disorder was addressed? That is what it is, a disorder. Just saying, if it can't happen than ok, but one can dream.
Having an awesome stepdad is great (I have the best in the world) but the loose canon bio-dad does damage...Exhibit A, right here.
Anyway, I'm on the FB...:)
Went to a family dinner...nice. Got a phone call from a T who was recommended (yes I know I'm a freak) and she was awesome...she would only say that she doesn't refer people to the T I saw a few days ago. She knew who she was and with my misgivings about her, I am taking heed. The conversation was extremely enlightening.
Dinner was so great and somehow I forget how just getting out and being social can be so cathartic. Had a really cute family friend giving me lots of attention and it was nice. I like to flirt, it's enough for me right now.
I've had a lot of emails with H tonight about money. He seems taken back by how much I need...that is what happens when you ignore the bills. The communication isn't really comfy for me when he gets into telling me what to do or helping me find a job...does that make sense? I want to do it on my own and I want my privacy. He also sent me a horoscope and used a playful name with me...no response.
I think a legal sep will help and I will get my own place with the kids and he can give me my part and do what he wants with his...
moving along here.
So if you are FB, are you in the group? If not, then ask Kalni Sunshine to be your friend and help you join.
The kids are excitedly grabbing things to take to daddy's. S6 told me this morning that Daddy is the most important thing in the world to him and that is why he will not go with his friend today.
Honestly, it feels like he's winning right now. Maybe someday they'll get it but right now this blows. He left for months and I had to deal and now he's their most coveted treasure...
I'll deal with it, it just sucks.
P.S. They're grabbing all the movies I wont let them see to take to his place...
Had a really cute family friend giving me lots of attention and it was nice. I like to flirt, it's enough for me right now.
Makes you feel good eh? Cherish it!
Money (or lack of it) is a pain! I
thought that was the main thin g in my life.I'm sure you'll agree that it wasn't/isn't. Maybe H will wake up to that fact. And wake up to what is really important. You know what that is! Getting a job is more than paying the bills. It's a way of being told how much you are "worth" and "needed". And you are!
So happy you enjoyed yourself over dinner. What were the "enlightening" things? Not snooping I promise.
And in our situation there is no such thing as "winning". Unless it's winning!
I wouldn't read to much into the kids taking the movies - they are just kids - willing to have as much as they can in any situation
Keep your chin up
Mac
(a) He left for months and I had to deal and (b) now he's their most coveted treasure...
Alphabet soup, mine.
You're a very smart woman and I'm sure you see the cause-and-effect connections between (a) and (b). Yeah, you'd think they'd know better ..... but .... they're kids.