Mojo. The life force. The essence. - 06/24/09 12:43 PM
Since my last thread locked at the last moment, I'm going to reproduce the last couple posts for continuity below.
The Most Recent of 'Em
The Most Recent of 'Em
Re: Mojo. The life force. The essence. - 06/24/09 12:51 PM
What you find here are some of the last few posts on the last SmileysPerson thread, but what I've done is re-arranged them a bit for continuity of discussion (rather than by time-posted order).
Waving my hands like a conductor, bro -- like a conductor! LOL!
But without the orchestra? Air Conducting.
Quote:
@fb2
SP, I "thought" you had a way with words but this has to be about the best thread I've read - and I haven't even read it all. I think Forrest can "think" about some of these "thoughts" and maybe even MWD. BTW see if you can find old thread by "GForce" it may be useful - there was some kind of "power shift" there. With the WAW its often about gains vs. losses.
SP, I "thought" you had a way with words but this has to be about the best thread I've read - and I haven't even read it all. I think Forrest can "think" about some of these "thoughts" and maybe even MWD. BTW see if you can find old thread by "GForce" it may be useful - there was some kind of "power shift" there. With the WAW its often about gains vs. losses.
Quote:
@SmileysPerson
@fb2: Thanks very much for that compliment, but the credit goes to the community -- @aliveandkicking, Forrest Gump, Coach, Greek, Puppy Dog Tails, Thinker, jaguilar, orangedog, mindblank, Gardener, Traveldane, AlexEN, Kalni, pollyanna, Gypsy, DanceQueen, Silver Fox, and anyone else I've overlooked -- whose comments/questions/challenges make the discussion move forward.
I'm just sitting here waving my hands.
Quote:
@fb2
SP, I "thought" you had a way with words but this has to be about the best thread I've read
SP, I "thought" you had a way with words but this has to be about the best thread I've read
@fb2: Thanks very much for that compliment, but the credit goes to the community -- @aliveandkicking, Forrest Gump, Coach, Greek, Puppy Dog Tails, Thinker, jaguilar, orangedog, mindblank, Gardener, Traveldane, AlexEN, Kalni, pollyanna, Gypsy, DanceQueen, Silver Fox, and anyone else I've overlooked -- whose comments/questions/challenges make the discussion move forward.
I'm just sitting here waving my hands.
Quote:
@Thinker
To quote your post on my thread this morning:
"I'm all for credit-where-credit-is-due. Cut yourself a break, dude."
Quote:
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I'm just sitting here waving my hands.
I'm just sitting here waving my hands.
To quote your post on my thread this morning:
"I'm all for credit-where-credit-is-due. Cut yourself a break, dude."
Quote:
Originally Posted by: Thinker
To quote your post on my thread this morning:
"I'm all for credit-where-credit-is-due. Cut yourself a break, dude."
Quote:
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I'm just sitting here waving my hands.
I'm just sitting here waving my hands.
To quote your post on my thread this morning:
"I'm all for credit-where-credit-is-due. Cut yourself a break, dude."
Waving my hands like a conductor, bro -- like a conductor! LOL!
But without the orchestra? Air Conducting.
Re: Mojo. The life force. The essence. - 06/24/09 12:53 PM
A couple more from the sudden end of the last thread:
Fact, Stone. Written in. One each. (Ex-military will get it.)
I had the privilege of meeting a great new friend (? - one hopes) from the DB community in person yesterday. Odd as it was initially -- it must be somewhat like computer dating -- it quickly became just a "normal thing" (for me anyway). Maybe that's how we meet people these days? I don't know. But whatever. I guess there aren't really bowling leagues anymore....
But the Meeting (and I mean that in the verb and not noun sense) was superb. A terrific person. Who knows who Him/Herself is.
Quote:
@Thinker: Part of GALing is meeting new friends. I feel like I have met some great new friends here - even if we never meet in person.
Fact, Stone. Written in. One each. (Ex-military will get it.)
I had the privilege of meeting a great new friend (? - one hopes) from the DB community in person yesterday. Odd as it was initially -- it must be somewhat like computer dating -- it quickly became just a "normal thing" (for me anyway). Maybe that's how we meet people these days? I don't know. But whatever. I guess there aren't really bowling leagues anymore....
But the Meeting (and I mean that in the verb and not noun sense) was superb. A terrific person. Who knows who Him/Herself is.
Re: Mojo. The life force. The essence. - 06/24/09 12:54 PM
And the most recent posting of mine from the last thread:
Dammit! Dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam.
I'm feeling sorry for her. Splart! Gaack!
All that stuff @Greek writes about WAW. It's right!
Poor WAW. She came home from work last night and, though I thought I'd seen her discombobulated, she was stone-cold-discombobulated. With 48 hours or so left in this house, her house, "our" house, the kids' house -- she doesn't know which way is up.
And it's creating serious tension, just as @Coach predicted. I'd grilled some lamb chops for the kids 'n' me, and I'd told her on the phone that there was food left. So I grill up the chop, grill up some asparagus and mushrooms, bake her crescent roll (Pillsbury, dudes -- I'm not that good a guy, LOL), and serve it. And the look on her face is somewhere between Despair and Loathing, as if to say, "Who the hell do you think you are feeding me this tasty food, buster?"
And it just went downhill from there. She's tired of me being supportive. She's tired of me "wanting" her to say things -- she's got nothing to say! She's irritated by me being available! IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THIS!
Yep. Gotta love that Divorce-Busting.
So I'm stepping back. She needs even more space, even more room. And, yes indeed @Greek, as hard as it is for LBS to acknowledge and accept, she too needs time to grieve.
It's very weird, I'll admit. But I've come to the realization that we LBS tend to create caricatures of WAS -- just as they create caricatures of us -- in order to facilitate the process, whatever the Way of the WAS is. We know ourselves to be greater than the sum of our parts; we know that we're better than what our marital failings indicate; we know we're capable of better and more and deeper and richer -- hell, it's why we're working so hard at this thing. So why doesn't WAS see that, s/he says in anguish?
Because they can't see that, at least not while they're in the fog. Who're they going to believe, the Way of the WAS or their lying eyes?
Think about it objectively (and this is something we've discussed in earlier threads of mine) -- decades of research in social-psychology teaches us that, as humans, we hate disconfirming information. We take stuff that doesn't "seem right" and mush and mash and smush and smash it around until it does "seem right" -- where "right" is defined as "matching what we already believe." Each of us knows this just in terms of our politics -- "our" guy is always right, even if he's wrong, because his wrongness is "right."
It seems to me that the tipping point for the lucky few like @Coach/Greek is when WAS acknowledges that the eyes don't lie. When WAS stops fighting the disconfirming information and says to him/herself, "Maybe I was wrong."
But that's a tough row to hoe, sports fans. And WAS needs time and space to hoe that row.
I saw that last night, almost for the first time.
Because I'm Divorce-Busting or Way of Warring (cf, @Gypsy) or whatever-it-is-I'm-doing. And it's messing up the Way of the WAS. So now it's time to sit back. Keep up my GAL (I've sort of plateau'd, so need to re-energize there). I've got to Keep Rolling My Way.
But.
Much as I hate to admit it.
So does WAW.
Dammit! Dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam.
I'm feeling sorry for her. Splart! Gaack!
All that stuff @Greek writes about WAW. It's right!
Poor WAW. She came home from work last night and, though I thought I'd seen her discombobulated, she was stone-cold-discombobulated. With 48 hours or so left in this house, her house, "our" house, the kids' house -- she doesn't know which way is up.
And it's creating serious tension, just as @Coach predicted. I'd grilled some lamb chops for the kids 'n' me, and I'd told her on the phone that there was food left. So I grill up the chop, grill up some asparagus and mushrooms, bake her crescent roll (Pillsbury, dudes -- I'm not that good a guy, LOL), and serve it. And the look on her face is somewhere between Despair and Loathing, as if to say, "Who the hell do you think you are feeding me this tasty food, buster?"
And it just went downhill from there. She's tired of me being supportive. She's tired of me "wanting" her to say things -- she's got nothing to say! She's irritated by me being available! IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THIS!
Yep. Gotta love that Divorce-Busting.
So I'm stepping back. She needs even more space, even more room. And, yes indeed @Greek, as hard as it is for LBS to acknowledge and accept, she too needs time to grieve.
It's very weird, I'll admit. But I've come to the realization that we LBS tend to create caricatures of WAS -- just as they create caricatures of us -- in order to facilitate the process, whatever the Way of the WAS is. We know ourselves to be greater than the sum of our parts; we know that we're better than what our marital failings indicate; we know we're capable of better and more and deeper and richer -- hell, it's why we're working so hard at this thing. So why doesn't WAS see that, s/he says in anguish?
Because they can't see that, at least not while they're in the fog. Who're they going to believe, the Way of the WAS or their lying eyes?
Think about it objectively (and this is something we've discussed in earlier threads of mine) -- decades of research in social-psychology teaches us that, as humans, we hate disconfirming information. We take stuff that doesn't "seem right" and mush and mash and smush and smash it around until it does "seem right" -- where "right" is defined as "matching what we already believe." Each of us knows this just in terms of our politics -- "our" guy is always right, even if he's wrong, because his wrongness is "right."
It seems to me that the tipping point for the lucky few like @Coach/Greek is when WAS acknowledges that the eyes don't lie. When WAS stops fighting the disconfirming information and says to him/herself, "Maybe I was wrong."
But that's a tough row to hoe, sports fans. And WAS needs time and space to hoe that row.
I saw that last night, almost for the first time.
Because I'm Divorce-Busting or Way of Warring (cf, @Gypsy) or whatever-it-is-I'm-doing. And it's messing up the Way of the WAS. So now it's time to sit back. Keep up my GAL (I've sort of plateau'd, so need to re-energize there). I've got to Keep Rolling My Way.
But.
Much as I hate to admit it.
So does WAW.
Re: Mojo. The life force. The essence. - 06/24/09 01:21 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
So why doesn't WAS see that, s/he says in anguish?
Because they can't see that, at least not while they're in the fog. Who're they going to believe, the Way of the WAS or their lying eyes?
Think about it objectively (and this is something we've discussed in earlier threads of mine) -- decades of research in social-psychology teaches us that, as humans, we hate disconfirming information. We take stuff that doesn't "seem right" and mush and mash and smush and smash it around until it does "seem right" -- where "right" is defined as "matching what we already believe." Each of us knows this just in terms of our politics -- "our" guy is always right, even if he's wrong, because his wrongness is "right."
Because they can't see that, at least not while they're in the fog. Who're they going to believe, the Way of the WAS or their lying eyes?
Think about it objectively (and this is something we've discussed in earlier threads of mine) -- decades of research in social-psychology teaches us that, as humans, we hate disconfirming information. We take stuff that doesn't "seem right" and mush and mash and smush and smash it around until it does "seem right" -- where "right" is defined as "matching what we already believe." Each of us knows this just in terms of our politics -- "our" guy is always right, even if he's wrong, because his wrongness is "right."
You think!!!
I had a MC session yesterday evening in which Mrs. Thinker vehemently blamed our deteriorating R directly on my self improvements and changes... ( My post last night on this session )
When I asked why things were getting more tense between us, my W replied:
"It's because of You! It's all of these changes you are making in yourself! They sicken me! I mean, what, here you have been clueless for 13 years (the amount of time we have known each other) and now all of the sudden you are super aware and superdad who always spends time with his kids and always helps out and... I don't know who this person is and I don't like him! He disgusts me!"
So ... because I am nicer, and do more, and am a better dad ... she is unhappier ... logically
I hear you SP! Give your W room to think. She has to see it for herself.
Re: Mojo. The life force. The essence. - 06/24/09 01:23 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
It's very weird, I'll admit. But I've come to the realization that we LBS tend to create caricatures of WAS -- just as they create caricatures of us -- in order to facilitate the process, whatever the Way of the WAS is. We know ourselves to be greater than the sum of our parts; we know that we're better than what our marital failings indicate; we know we're capable of better and more and deeper and richer -- hell, it's why we're working so hard at this thing. So why doesn't WAS see that, s/he says in anguish?
Because they can't see that, at least not while they're in the fog. Who're they going to believe, the Way of the WAS or their lying eyes?
Smiley, this is SO true, and a really insightful observation. I'm guilty of this myself, and -- like ANY prejudice -- while it may be HELPFUL 90% of the time, it can HOLD YOU BACK the other 10%. Waywards really do follow a basic "script," and studying that script can help you, but you need to be really careful that it doesn't turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy, too.
Puppy
And So It Comes - 06/24/09 02:37 PM
In 48 hours, give or take a couple of minutes, I need to take the children -- D6 and S9 -- out so that WAW's movers can come in the house and carry her away.
So what's my play? Do I have them say "goodbye" to her? How much of a scene do I permit to go on? Do I simply hustle them out the door, waving a "cheerie-bye!"? It seems disrespectful to them and their feelings not to let them confront it four-square, yet my instincts are to protect them at all costs.
For my part, in terms of the bilateral interaction, the challenge will simply be to control my emotional response -- sadly or madly -- and to hold my tongue.
But I'm less concerned -- much less -- about myself than I am with them.
So, to those who have been there: What's my play?
So what's my play? Do I have them say "goodbye" to her? How much of a scene do I permit to go on? Do I simply hustle them out the door, waving a "cheerie-bye!"? It seems disrespectful to them and their feelings not to let them confront it four-square, yet my instincts are to protect them at all costs.
For my part, in terms of the bilateral interaction, the challenge will simply be to control my emotional response -- sadly or madly -- and to hold my tongue.
But I'm less concerned -- much less -- about myself than I am with them.
So, to those who have been there: What's my play?
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 02:48 PM
Morning...
Being there. And it sucked big time cause H moved all his things in front of them, while they were literally on the floor crying. He moved in 2-3 hours, didnt take anything else but his clothes. It was a bad choice from both our parts but we were both so emotional... I was... crying FOR my kids not him leaving. I would suggest to do everything to keep them away from dramamatic "scenes". I wish we had done that. I wish I had been stronger and in control because they looked up to ME for strength and I let them down. Their reactions was 60% based on how I reacted and 40% on what was going on. At least that day (and later as I realised). Kids proccess things differently. Try to keep calm and focused because they will feel scraed if they see you "loosing it". I dont know how to forgive me and him for that horrible morning my son still remembers clearly.
Protect them from drama. It's not disrespect to take them away. Maybe use that time to talk to them about mom's move, dont ignore the facts or pretend all is well. But keep them out of the eye of the hurricane.
K
Being there. And it sucked big time cause H moved all his things in front of them, while they were literally on the floor crying. He moved in 2-3 hours, didnt take anything else but his clothes. It was a bad choice from both our parts but we were both so emotional... I was... crying FOR my kids not him leaving. I would suggest to do everything to keep them away from dramamatic "scenes". I wish we had done that. I wish I had been stronger and in control because they looked up to ME for strength and I let them down. Their reactions was 60% based on how I reacted and 40% on what was going on. At least that day (and later as I realised). Kids proccess things differently. Try to keep calm and focused because they will feel scraed if they see you "loosing it". I dont know how to forgive me and him for that horrible morning my son still remembers clearly.
Protect them from drama. It's not disrespect to take them away. Maybe use that time to talk to them about mom's move, dont ignore the facts or pretend all is well. But keep them out of the eye of the hurricane.
K
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 02:55 PM
#1 objective is GUARD THEIR HEARTS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. As much as this particular change is about Mr. and Mrs. SP...it is going to be a DEFINING moment in their LIVES. So... that's how I would frame my moves.
Suggestions:
*In kid-speak, as clearly as you can, explain what will physically happen (movers coming, stuff going out of the door, where it's going, WHERE THEIR THINGS WILL BE). Keep it simple, SP. Then let them ask what they want to know beyond what you present. Keep answers simple and only answer what they ask. If you don't know, say "I don't know." Keep eye contact with your babies. They'll be watching for signs in YOUR eyes.
*I know you wouldn't...but just in case the moments get the best of you, DO NOT SMEAR MRS. SP at all to her children. This matters to THEM. My parents are divorced - my father has NEVER said an unkind word about my mother. My mother never misses an opp. to slam him. Guess who I respect more.
*Take them away from the house while this whole operation is going on - start to finish. Do something fun, meaningful.
*Bring something home from the get-a-away so there is diversion/distraction when you walk in the door the first time. Something that needs to be eaten quickly, a puppy or kitten, a bird or turtle, something to plug in and do immediately ~~~ ease them into the space with a distraction.
Just suggestions. None of this will make it easier for you. But the goal is to help the little SPs - as you know.
Suggestions:
*In kid-speak, as clearly as you can, explain what will physically happen (movers coming, stuff going out of the door, where it's going, WHERE THEIR THINGS WILL BE). Keep it simple, SP. Then let them ask what they want to know beyond what you present. Keep answers simple and only answer what they ask. If you don't know, say "I don't know." Keep eye contact with your babies. They'll be watching for signs in YOUR eyes.
*I know you wouldn't...but just in case the moments get the best of you, DO NOT SMEAR MRS. SP at all to her children. This matters to THEM. My parents are divorced - my father has NEVER said an unkind word about my mother. My mother never misses an opp. to slam him. Guess who I respect more.
*Take them away from the house while this whole operation is going on - start to finish. Do something fun, meaningful.
*Bring something home from the get-a-away so there is diversion/distraction when you walk in the door the first time. Something that needs to be eaten quickly, a puppy or kitten, a bird or turtle, something to plug in and do immediately ~~~ ease them into the space with a distraction.
Just suggestions. None of this will make it easier for you. But the goal is to help the little SPs - as you know.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 02:58 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
In 48 hours, give or take a couple of minutes, I need to take the children -- D6 and S9 -- out so that WAW's movers can come in the house and carry her away.
So what's my play? Do I have them say "goodbye" to her? How much of a scene do I permit to go on? Do I simply hustle them out the door, waving a "cheerie-bye!"? It seems disrespectful to them and their feelings not to let them confront it four-square, yet my instincts are to protect them at all costs.
For my part, in terms of the bilateral interaction, the challenge will simply be to control my emotional response -- sadly or madly -- and to hold my tongue.
But I'm less concerned -- much less -- about myself than I am with them.
So, to those who have been there: What's my play?
So what's my play? Do I have them say "goodbye" to her? How much of a scene do I permit to go on? Do I simply hustle them out the door, waving a "cheerie-bye!"? It seems disrespectful to them and their feelings not to let them confront it four-square, yet my instincts are to protect them at all costs.
For my part, in terms of the bilateral interaction, the challenge will simply be to control my emotional response -- sadly or madly -- and to hold my tongue.
But I'm less concerned -- much less -- about myself than I am with them.
So, to those who have been there: What's my play?
SP,
Even though I'm normally "Mr. Consequences" around here, I would try to minimize this for them as much as possible. A very casual "we'll see you later at your new place!" and hustle them off.
Then just be extra open/sensitive to them if they want to talk about it later.
Puppy
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 02:59 PM
Hi SP,
I can't advise you as someone who has seen his spouse move out, but I can advise you as someone who moved himself many times as a child (military brat ) and as someone who has moved his own children. I know this move is going to be REALLY difficult for you, but for a minute, I am putting myself in your children's shoes.
My memories and coping techniques as a little Thinker who kept moving was not to focus on the loss of the old, but on the gain of the new.
Remember that, difficult as it is for you, they are also moving. As I understand it, they are going to be spending part of their time with Mrs. SP in her new house, so this is also their new house as well.
With this in mind, my recommendation would be not to focus their attention at all on her moving out, but to allow them to be focused on themselves moving in to their new house.
Unfortunately, you can't be the one to focus them on this. Your W has to do it.
Is it possible for you to step back for a day, acknowledge that it's moving day but take them out and entertain them while the movers take everything out of your house, and then hand them over to your W so that she can "Celebrate" their new home with them. For their sake, she really needs to do that.
Your focus should be on distracting them from the move out.
Also, one of the most distressing parts of a move out for a child is looking at the empty hole where all of the familiar stuff used to be. Have a plan for how you are going to fill those holes and make your house still a complete home (for your kids) once her stuff is gone.
Just my opinion.
I am sorry that you have to go through this. I really am.
I can't advise you as someone who has seen his spouse move out, but I can advise you as someone who moved himself many times as a child (military brat
) and as someone who has moved his own children. I know this move is going to be REALLY difficult for you, but for a minute, I am putting myself in your children's shoes.My memories and coping techniques as a little Thinker who kept moving was not to focus on the loss of the old, but on the gain of the new.
Remember that, difficult as it is for you, they are also moving. As I understand it, they are going to be spending part of their time with Mrs. SP in her new house, so this is also their new house as well.
With this in mind, my recommendation would be not to focus their attention at all on her moving out, but to allow them to be focused on themselves moving in to their new house.
Unfortunately, you can't be the one to focus them on this. Your W has to do it.
Is it possible for you to step back for a day, acknowledge that it's moving day but take them out and entertain them while the movers take everything out of your house, and then hand them over to your W so that she can "Celebrate" their new home with them. For their sake, she really needs to do that.
Your focus should be on distracting them from the move out.
Also, one of the most distressing parts of a move out for a child is looking at the empty hole where all of the familiar stuff used to be. Have a plan for how you are going to fill those holes and make your house still a complete home (for your kids) once her stuff is gone.
Just my opinion.
I am sorry that you have to go through this. I really am.
Re: Mojo. The life force. The essence. - 06/24/09 03:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
It's very weird, I'll admit. But I've come to the realization that we LBS tend to create caricatures of WAS -- just as they create caricatures of us -- in order to facilitate the process, whatever the Way of the WAS is. We know ourselves to be greater than the sum of our parts; we know that we're better than what our marital failings indicate; we know we're capable of better and more and deeper and richer -- hell, it's why we're working so hard at this thing. So why doesn't WAS see that, s/he says in anguish?
Because they can't see that, at least not while they're in the fog. Who're they going to believe, the Way of the WAS or their lying eyes?
Smiley, this is SO true, and a really insightful observation. I'm guilty of this myself, and -- like ANY prejudice -- while it may be HELPFUL 90% of the time, it can HOLD YOU BACK the other 10%. Waywards really do follow a basic "script," and studying that script can help you, but you need to be really careful that it doesn't turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy, too.
Puppy
Puppy are admitting there might be some grey area between the black and white?
It helps to remember your beloved isn't a WAS, MLCer, DAM, etc but a person with needs,wants, goals, dreams and fears just like you. I have made it a point to try and stop using those labels here. If it were your spouse posting on here the perspective would be a whole lot different.
Cheers
ps Lying Eyes- that would be a great song title.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 03:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Greek
#1 objective is GUARD THEIR HEARTS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. As much as this particular change is about Mr. and Mrs. SP...it is going to be a DEFINING moment in their LIVES. So... that's how I would frame my moves.
Suggestions:
*In kid-speak, as clearly as you can, explain what will physically happen (movers coming, stuff going out of the door, where it's going, WHERE THEIR THINGS WILL BE). Keep it simple, SP. Then let them ask what they want to know beyond what you present. Keep answers simple and only answer what they ask. If you don't know, say "I don't know." Keep eye contact with your babies. They'll be watching for signs in YOUR eyes.
*I know you wouldn't...but just in case the moments get the best of you, DO NOT SMEAR MRS. SP at all to her children. This matters to THEM. My parents are divorced - my father has NEVER said an unkind word about my mother. My mother never misses an opp. to slam him. Guess who I respect more.
*Take them away from the house while this whole operation is going on - start to finish. Do something fun, meaningful.
*Bring something home from the get-a-away so there is diversion/distraction when you walk in the door the first time. Something that needs to be eaten quickly, a puppy or kitten, a bird or turtle, something to plug in and do immediately ~~~ ease them into the space with a distraction.
Just suggestions. None of this will make it easier for you. But the goal is to help the little SPs - as you know.
Suggestions:
*In kid-speak, as clearly as you can, explain what will physically happen (movers coming, stuff going out of the door, where it's going, WHERE THEIR THINGS WILL BE). Keep it simple, SP. Then let them ask what they want to know beyond what you present. Keep answers simple and only answer what they ask. If you don't know, say "I don't know." Keep eye contact with your babies. They'll be watching for signs in YOUR eyes.
*I know you wouldn't...but just in case the moments get the best of you, DO NOT SMEAR MRS. SP at all to her children. This matters to THEM. My parents are divorced - my father has NEVER said an unkind word about my mother. My mother never misses an opp. to slam him. Guess who I respect more.
*Take them away from the house while this whole operation is going on - start to finish. Do something fun, meaningful.
*Bring something home from the get-a-away so there is diversion/distraction when you walk in the door the first time. Something that needs to be eaten quickly, a puppy or kitten, a bird or turtle, something to plug in and do immediately ~~~ ease them into the space with a distraction.
Just suggestions. None of this will make it easier for you. But the goal is to help the little SPs - as you know.
This is great stuff, Greek.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 03:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
*Bring something home from the get-a-away so there is diversion/distraction when you walk in the door the first time. Something that needs to be eaten quickly, a puppy or kitten, a bird or turtle, something to plug in and do immediately ~~~ ease them into the space with a distraction.
If you don't already have a pet in your home SP, and are open to the idea, I think a new puppy or kitten is a great idea.
A new animal really changes the dynamic in the home in a positive way, and would prevent all of you (Little SP's and You) from focusing on the sudden absence.
It will, however, probably also anger your W, because she will read it as an attempt to compete with her new life.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 03:32 PM
You also have to know that you want to care for a pet long term. I mean, it is a big commitment, not to be made impulsively.
Still, a nice idea.
Still, a nice idea.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 03:35 PM
Yeah, I'm with A&K on this, my kids can't even remember to feed the guinea pig... 
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 04:17 PM
Agreed completely. It would have to be something SP wanted to do anyway for himself (or had always wanted to do, etc).
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 04:43 PM
The "hole in the house" is a big problem. (There's already a dog.)
I'm going to ask Herself if she'll have her people move the sofa and lounge chair from my office into the front room to fill some of the hole, and I think the kids and I will "suddenly" decide to buy an air-hockey table and put it right-smack-dab in the middle of what once was the living room.
But I have a fair sense of how weird it'll be -- the closet in the master bed is mighty empty-looking.
I'm going to ask Herself if she'll have her people move the sofa and lounge chair from my office into the front room to fill some of the hole, and I think the kids and I will "suddenly" decide to buy an air-hockey table and put it right-smack-dab in the middle of what once was the living room.
But I have a fair sense of how weird it'll be -- the closet in the master bed is mighty empty-looking.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 04:47 PM
Hug the kids and love them. They need to lean into you now, more than ever, in order to get through this. You have to push your own grief over the situation to the side. It is not easy, I know. I try not to get emotional in front of the kids. IT is too damaging for them. I tell them, repeatedly if need be, that we will all be fine, that God's grace is sufficient for any trial in life. They know that God always loves them, is always faithful, and they are leaning into His strength, also.
As for all the empty space---SHOPPING TRIP!!
Living God's blessing with grace and dignity~
SMW
As for all the empty space---SHOPPING TRIP!!
Living God's blessing with grace and dignity~
SMW
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 05:36 PM
Hmmm. Seems to me as a child I would have been thrilled to trade one angry parent for an air hockey table!
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 05:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
*Bring something home from the get-a-away so there is diversion/distraction when you walk in the door the first time. Something that needs to be eaten quickly, a puppy or kitten, a bird or turtle, something to plug in and do immediately ~~~ ease them into the space with a distraction.
If you don't already have a pet in your home SP, and are open to the idea, I think a new puppy or kitten is a great idea.
A puppy is NEVER a bad idea.
Signed,
Puppy
Re: Mojo. The life force. The essence. - 06/24/09 05:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Puppy are admitting there might be some grey area between the black and white?
I'm tryin', Coach. I'm tryin'.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 05:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Sara
Hmmm. Seems to me as a child I would have been thrilled to trade one angry parent for an air hockey table!
Or a puppy!
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 06:12 PM
How'd it work for us? Most of you have read my sitch already this already but this is how it worked for us:
1. Kids were aware of changes. We showed them my house, their room, nearby park, and let them get used to idea. "It's your place too." W has work to do to get kids settled and Smiley has work to let them "fill the space". Let them paint a room, set up a skateboard ramp in the living room or whatever.
2. Kids were away for moving day - in our case for a few weeks. They didn't need to see furniture moving. It would have only added more drama. It gave W and I time to connect and sort out (both items and feelings).
3. Take some occasional down time or rest throughout the day. It's surprising how emotional things can feel when you're packing up stuff. Take a break when you need it.
4. Bring some friends over. Friends want to help and they will provide you support.
5. Be nice. She's suffering too. This is your chance to leave on a good note. What you do here will be remembered forever.
6. DB your butt off! Keep it upbeat.
7. Spend some friendly alone time with her. Pour a glass kick your feet up.
8. Tell her the "Door is always open".
--
Buying the kids a puppy? Just make sure you know what you're getting into. Pets shouldn't be an impulse purchase. I already had an eccentric older dog.
1. Kids were aware of changes. We showed them my house, their room, nearby park, and let them get used to idea. "It's your place too." W has work to do to get kids settled and Smiley has work to let them "fill the space". Let them paint a room, set up a skateboard ramp in the living room or whatever.
2. Kids were away for moving day - in our case for a few weeks. They didn't need to see furniture moving. It would have only added more drama. It gave W and I time to connect and sort out (both items and feelings).
3. Take some occasional down time or rest throughout the day. It's surprising how emotional things can feel when you're packing up stuff. Take a break when you need it.
4. Bring some friends over. Friends want to help and they will provide you support.
5. Be nice. She's suffering too. This is your chance to leave on a good note. What you do here will be remembered forever.
6. DB your butt off! Keep it upbeat.
7. Spend some friendly alone time with her. Pour a glass kick your feet up.
8. Tell her the "Door is always open".
--
Buying the kids a puppy? Just make sure you know what you're getting into. Pets shouldn't be an impulse purchase. I already had an eccentric older dog.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 06:39 PM
Sorry to hijack, but do others have experience with such ideas when the initial separation is going to be under the same roof?
W will be moving into guest bedroom... as precursor to moving out...
W will be moving into guest bedroom... as precursor to moving out...
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 07:45 PM
@AlexEN: I was separated "that way" from 13 Feb to, well, Friday.
It's all a management issue. If you can manage being in the same house, it's...well...manageable. But when things are tense it's a bear.
-----
I'm floating with the tide into dangerous waters. I'm not being Differentiated today I'm afraid. In other words, I'm not deciding to control my emotions. It's odd, the things you don't notice, and when you do -- pow!
I was dropping D6 off at day-camp this morning, and she was all hinky and uncertain -- not at all like her normal self. I watched S9 find a place for carpet time at his day-camp, and it was the same thing. And I thought -- and then the thought passed -- why are they acting so weird?
Then, 20 minutes ago, I'm eating a sandwich and DUH.
They're putting on brave little faces for WAW. But they're not so brave, and they're not so tough, and they're hurting.
And frankly, that pisses me off like m*thaf*cka. And my Non-Differentiated Self wants to make WAW pay for that. I know I shouldn't. I know that, in the moment, I can't.
But dam how I want to.
It's all a management issue. If you can manage being in the same house, it's...well...manageable. But when things are tense it's a bear.
-----
I'm floating with the tide into dangerous waters. I'm not being Differentiated today I'm afraid. In other words, I'm not deciding to control my emotions. It's odd, the things you don't notice, and when you do -- pow!
I was dropping D6 off at day-camp this morning, and she was all hinky and uncertain -- not at all like her normal self. I watched S9 find a place for carpet time at his day-camp, and it was the same thing. And I thought -- and then the thought passed -- why are they acting so weird?
Then, 20 minutes ago, I'm eating a sandwich and DUH.
They're putting on brave little faces for WAW. But they're not so brave, and they're not so tough, and they're hurting.
And frankly, that pisses me off like m*thaf*cka. And my Non-Differentiated Self wants to make WAW pay for that. I know I shouldn't. I know that, in the moment, I can't.
But dam how I want to.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 07:48 PM
I know.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 07:51 PM
They must be completely disillusioned. They are learning that they can't count on what they thought they could count on. Reading your post fills me with sadness and rage. I am so very sorry for them and for all of the babes. It is just not right.
Lucky
Lucky
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 08:10 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
@AlexEN: I was separated "that way" from 13 Feb to, well, Friday.
It's all a management issue. If you can manage being in the same house, it's...well...manageable. But when things are tense it's a bear.
-----
I'm floating with the tide into dangerous waters. I'm not being Differentiated today I'm afraid. In other words, I'm not deciding to control my emotions. It's odd, the things you don't notice, and when you do -- pow!
I was dropping D6 off at day-camp this morning, and she was all hinky and uncertain -- not at all like her normal self. I watched S9 find a place for carpet time at his day-camp, and it was the same thing. And I thought -- and then the thought passed -- why are they acting so weird?
Then, 20 minutes ago, I'm eating a sandwich and DUH.
They're putting on brave little faces for WAW. But they're not so brave, and they're not so tough, and they're hurting.
And frankly, that pisses me off like m*thaf*cka. And my Non-Differentiated Self wants to make WAW pay for that. I know I shouldn't. I know that, in the moment, I can't.
But dam how I want to.
It's all a management issue. If you can manage being in the same house, it's...well...manageable. But when things are tense it's a bear.
-----
I'm floating with the tide into dangerous waters. I'm not being Differentiated today I'm afraid. In other words, I'm not deciding to control my emotions. It's odd, the things you don't notice, and when you do -- pow!
I was dropping D6 off at day-camp this morning, and she was all hinky and uncertain -- not at all like her normal self. I watched S9 find a place for carpet time at his day-camp, and it was the same thing. And I thought -- and then the thought passed -- why are they acting so weird?
Then, 20 minutes ago, I'm eating a sandwich and DUH.
They're putting on brave little faces for WAW. But they're not so brave, and they're not so tough, and they're hurting.
And frankly, that pisses me off like m*thaf*cka. And my Non-Differentiated Self wants to make WAW pay for that. I know I shouldn't. I know that, in the moment, I can't.
But dam how I want to.
I hear you; even if she can't hurt you anymore, how dare she or anyone else f*ck with the kids' heads... It's hard not to be angry about that even if you accept that WAS believes what she believes.
This part is SO much harder coming to grips with than the M being over...
And a piece of it that pi$$es me off is that W has always overpromised to them (and this, I'm sorry if I'm being judgmental, is unlikely to be any different) and so, in our dance of life, I always had to reset their expectations back in the middle... and hence end up being the bad guy.
That's a dance that can't be danced in this, their biggest heartache of all. So, for me, the target will, unfortunately, have to include letting her over-promise and under-deliver without protecting her from the long-term consequences of letting her do so... because I will be there for them with what's Real as that's the Walk I choose...
SP, I have to remind myself that as painful as it is to think about and watch what these events will do to our kids, that, as my C once said to me, there will be a right side and a wrong side of history and your actions today will determine which one it will be.
-AlexEN
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 08:32 PM
Quote:
And frankly, that pisses me off like m*thaf*cka. And my Non-Differentiated Self wants to make WAW pay for that. I know I shouldn't. I know that, in the moment, I can't.
But dam how I want to.
But dam how I want to.
Let it out somewhere safe. You have a lot of stress right now, keep busy and take care of yourself.
The ROE say you can't take out WAS. Just handle it the best your can right now.
Cheers
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 08:57 PM
Quote:
Quote:
And frankly, that pisses me off like m*thaf*cka. And my Non-Differentiated Self wants to make WAW pay for that. I know I shouldn't. I know that, in the moment, I can't.
But dam how I want to.
Let it out somewhere safe. You have a lot of stress right now, keep busy and take care of yourself.
The ROE say you can't take out WAS. Just handle it the best your can right now.
Cheers
If SP feels anger and hurt why can he not express it to the one who causes it. I get very confused between when do you make WAS feel the consequenses of their actions and when do you go into the empty forest and scream .
Do we all really believe in our heart of hearts that these WAS will see the stupidity of their actions ? If no one tells them , what would make them see it. If Mrs SP really does not see the pain in her babies eye in next 24 hours - why should we expect her to see it in the future.
SP I am a whole day ahead of you. i can tell you that the sun will come up and that life goes on. To help you though the day think about what good things your future will hold for you. Remember WAS is completely out of your control.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/24/09 09:05 PM
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Sorry to hijack, but do others have experience with such ideas when the initial separation is going to be under the same roof?
W will be moving into guest bedroom... as precursor to moving out...
W will be moving into guest bedroom... as precursor to moving out...
Hi Alex,
I have always been a bit confused about this. What exactly does "Separated under the same roof" mean? As I understand it, where I live "Separation" has no legal status. You are either married or you are not.
So "Separated under the same roof" means you are still married, and still living in the same house, but (and still) not no longer intimate, and no longer sleeping in the same bedrooms. How is this any different from how most of us are living today?
Are you planning to start the split custody arrangements while you are still living together? If not, as far as the kids go, nothing really changes. You could explain the separate bedrooms to the kids in a number of ways.
Are one or both of you planning to date while "separated" but still living together? -- Now that would drive me completely crazy. I'd have to draw a boundary there.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 02:19 AM
I'm about to post a barn-burner, but let me try to be something vaguely resembling my normal self first and respond to @Thinker and @AlexEN.
Don't know the law in Their States, but there is a concept in many states, including Coastal State, that is at the heart of this distinction -- "separation" need not be physical. Often physical separation is impossible for financial reasons or -- awful as it sounds -- because abusive partners more-or-less imprison the erstwhile Walkaways (flee-aways is probably more accurate) (more common in rural areas where there's no support infrastructure, for example, for battered wives or anyplace to go in any event).
"Separation" generally begins when you say it begins. When you stop "holding yourselves out" (note the plural!) as a married couple. In other words, when you no longer enact Married-dom in the eyes of the knowing public. When you no longer have sex (and people "out there" know it). When you have sex with someone else. When you stop wearing a wedding ring. Etc. etc. etc. Like so much else there's a lot of wiggle room for interpretation, but the courts generally take the position that, IF you're not "acting" married, you're separated. When the filing comes there will be a place on the form for date-of-separation -- that's purely a legal formality for purposes of assigning back payment of support.
The tweak there is if you are doing ANYTHING (again, as a couple!) to forestall D. Counseling, Retro, church-league softball (joint GAL) -- any time you start any of that, the separation clock re-sets because it is taken as a presumption that differences are not necessarily irreconcilable.
So I started sleeping in the guestroom on Feb 13. But we went to a MC through March 5. Then we stopped. So the separation started March 6, despite the fact that we slept only 12 feet (vertically/horizontally) apart.
So that's that.
-----------------------------
Okay, now to be completely irrational and off the reservation.
What with the physical separation starting day-after-tomorrow, I finally hied myself to an attorney. This guy runs a collaborative law practice, which WAW and I had decided was preferable to litigation. As it happens it isn't, but not for the obvious reason -- the stakes are just too low in our D (shush! the court only cares about the kids and the money!) and the issue of spousal support is the only bone of contention for mediation/collaboration to pay off. We'd spend more time and money on mediators than we would simply agreeing to a support figure, getting one lawyer to draw up the papers and presenting it to a judge -- who will be more than happy to accept it as given and bang his gavel. But he's a Mojo Family Law guy out here and educated me.
So I get in the Urban Assault Vehicle (cleverly camouflaged as a Honda minivan) and text WAW: Done! Very interesting consultation - learned a lot. OK c u.
WAW phones instantly -- "Can you talk?" she asks guardedly.
Sure, just getting on the road here.
"So." [You know the one I mean. That "so."] "So it was interesting?"
Yes, I got a lot out of it. I feel much more comfortable talking about all this now. And then I basically described the upshot -- what I posted above about "litigation" (such as it would be) being more cost-effective; the difference between collaboration, mediation, and litigation; the low-probability that a court would order SP to see a vocational counselor (often done, especially in Coastal State, for SAHMs by the way).
"And?" [Here it comes. The money talk.]
And I'm not sure this is something we should talk about.
But WAW assures me it's no biggie, just curious, and so I lay it on her [and mind you, Mojo Lawyer would not be "my" lawyer in this situation if in fact we went to collaboration -- just "a" lawyer -- and he wasn't giving me legal advice, just expert info].
Sez I: You promise you're not going to attack me? ("Of course") You understand there was no advocacy, just information? ("Get on with it!") Okay. In his experience [40 years] he's never seen a court compel a lower-earning spouse who does what I do to get different work because we provide a societal benefit despite our low wages. So it would be lifetime support at roughly [Big, But Not Donald Trump Big, number], defined as until death or second marriage.
Ah-ooga! Ah-ooga! Go to DEFCON 2! Incoming FLASH priority message traffic! Surge the boomers! Scramble the bombers to their fail-safe points! "Well boys," said Major Kong, "I reckon this it -- nooklar combat toe-to-toe with the Russkies!"
And.She.Goes.Apesh*t.
Stone.Cold.Screaming.Hyperventilating.Weeping.Cursing.Apesh*t.
And we're off to the races. She offers me the house. No, really. The whole house. Clean. Or one of her other houses, and the rental income that goes with them. Or the cash equivalent. She says, and I sh*t you not, "I will give you anything! Anything! I can't be connected to you for life!"
And I tell her that I'm not going to discuss this (a) on the mobile phone and (b) with her in this condition and, by the way, I am not under any circumstances even going to listen to any so-called "offers" made with her being completely out of her mind like this, because I'm not going to take advantage of her like that -- these aren't real offers or even unreal offers, they're the random words of pure panic (and near-insanity, if you ask me).
Which she interprets as follows: "I reject your offer and demand support for life."
So she switches gears to the panoply of names she called me back on Thread #2 or #3. "Oh, I had an 'enlightening' consultation," she sneers, in that sneery sneer voice people use when they're making fun of you and sneering. "I knew it! I knew you would.... etc. etc."
And Smiley's Person can't get a word in edgewise. And he's trying, my friends -- oh how he's trying. Please calm down. Please. I didn't say -- now wait -- hold on -- it's not --
So I have to pull over into a parking lot. And she's going and going and going, and I'm saying "Look I'll call you back" and I'm getting "don't you dare hang up you worthless piece of sh*t! I should have dumped your a** 10 years ago! I knew you'd go for the jugular and try to f*** me in the a**! You either want to hurt me or hang onto me, why else would you want me writing checks to you when I'm 65?"
And finally she slows down and I ask, still -- I promise you, I know you don't want to believe me, but I promise you dear DB'ers -- still trying to validate, to "really 'hear,'" to not be the Wiseguy Smiley's Person I am held to be, I ask, "Can you tell me why this discussion always leads to this? Can you help me understand how you feel when you react like this? And for my own understanding, can you explain why you always seem to assume the worst about me? Do you not understand why these things hurt me so much? I understand that you're scared. That you're worried. That you're sad. You've said all that and I get it. But why does scared + worried + sad = [and here I have to 'fess up that I was a bit of a wiseguy, because I quoted her own words back to her] Smiley's Person is a worthless piece of sh*t whose a** you should have dumped 10 years ago because you knew he'd go for the jugular and f*** you in the a**? Why do you have to make me out to be such a bad person?"
"What do you mean? I never said that."
What? What? What? What? What? What? Is this Crazy Town?
So I try to redirect. Did you hear me say I wanted you writing checks when you're 65? Did you hear me say anything at all about jugulars or a**es? Did you even hear me say anything about the money?
"No."
No. And if I really was that bad, if I really wanted to hurt you, if I really didn't care about you or the quality of your life -- don't you think I would say something? Something on the order of 'F*** you, I'm taking all the money you heartless b*tch?'
"I suppose."
But I didn't say that, did I?
"No."
And I've never said that, have I?
"No."
And have you ever wondered why?
"No."
Well that hurts, too. That hurts almost as much as your assumption that I'm such a bad person. It's like you're not even the slightest bit curious about me. It's like I don't even really exist to you. I'm just this, this, this -- mannequin. "A**hole Smiley's Person." God knows what you tell your friends. You say you want to be friends, you say this, you say that, you say you want to get to know me again -- but every time, every f*cking time this subject comes up, your default position is that I'm a piece of sh*t. I'm not even sure I believe that you ever loved me.
"I can't believe you said that. I can't believe you're throwing that in my face. I don't throw your snooping in your face, poking your nose into my private thoughts."
Yeah, well I never said that was a right thing to do, have I? And I've never denied your feelings or your hurt, have I? But throwing that in my face, after what you called me --
"Once, when I was mad."
-- at least four times, throwing that in my face would be like sprinkling some sand on my face after chunking a brick at me. What's the point, really, when no matter what I do or say -- and let me remind you all I was doing was telling you what someone else said! -- you're going to react by painting me in the worst possible light. F*ck it. If this is as good as it gets, I think I'll be happier you're leaving than you are."
And then I lost her. God bless AT&T and their crappy connectivity.
--------------------------------
Pffffffffffffffw. Man, it was bad. And I don't even care. I'm glad I fought back. I'm glad I said what I said. I'm sort of tired of being noble and sh*t. I want to be an a**hole for a while.
And it's got nothing to do with Friendiness -- if she needs a helping hand, I'll offer one. Because that's how I Roll, dammit. I'll offer compassion even if it costs me emotionally -- especially if it costs me emotionally, because it's easy to be compassionate when it's easy to be compassionate.
And the ironic thing? The definition of "life" is "death or marriage." And the number is big, so to speak, but not live-on-it-in-lieu-of-a-job big, not Hamptons/Outer Banks/Aspen/Malibu big, not George-and-Weezie-movin'-on-up big. And it's certainly not big enough that I would forgo love and marriage for it. Which she would know. Because she knows I like marriage. And the whole thing would have blown over in the first 5 minutes. If she'd just given me a chance to finish my sentence. But instead, she did what WAS does. She went right to the mattresses. She assumed the worst. She redefined me.
And yes -- I know she's stressed and hurting and etc. I'm not denying the essential correctness of the post I wrote above, via @Greek. I'm not.
But her stress and hurt is not a blank check. It's not a license to ignore my reality, my Truth, just because it's inconvenient. Not to my face. If she wants to Make Believe in her mind, more power to her.
But I'm dammed if I'm going to sit idly by while I get disrespected like that. Not when I'm doing what I do for me and the kids. Not when I'm trying to Roll My Way and Walk My Path. And I'm not asking for "fairness" or "justice" or "payback." I'm not talking about Schnarch's "covert contract." I'm talking about simple respect. As a man. As a father. As the father of her children. So -- Just. F*ck. That.
I'll take my godd*m mojo and football and go home.
Don't know the law in Their States, but there is a concept in many states, including Coastal State, that is at the heart of this distinction -- "separation" need not be physical. Often physical separation is impossible for financial reasons or -- awful as it sounds -- because abusive partners more-or-less imprison the erstwhile Walkaways (flee-aways is probably more accurate) (more common in rural areas where there's no support infrastructure, for example, for battered wives or anyplace to go in any event).
"Separation" generally begins when you say it begins. When you stop "holding yourselves out" (note the plural!) as a married couple. In other words, when you no longer enact Married-dom in the eyes of the knowing public. When you no longer have sex (and people "out there" know it). When you have sex with someone else. When you stop wearing a wedding ring. Etc. etc. etc. Like so much else there's a lot of wiggle room for interpretation, but the courts generally take the position that, IF you're not "acting" married, you're separated. When the filing comes there will be a place on the form for date-of-separation -- that's purely a legal formality for purposes of assigning back payment of support.
The tweak there is if you are doing ANYTHING (again, as a couple!) to forestall D. Counseling, Retro, church-league softball (joint GAL) -- any time you start any of that, the separation clock re-sets because it is taken as a presumption that differences are not necessarily irreconcilable.
So I started sleeping in the guestroom on Feb 13. But we went to a MC through March 5. Then we stopped. So the separation started March 6, despite the fact that we slept only 12 feet (vertically/horizontally) apart.
So that's that.
-----------------------------
Okay, now to be completely irrational and off the reservation.
What with the physical separation starting day-after-tomorrow, I finally hied myself to an attorney. This guy runs a collaborative law practice, which WAW and I had decided was preferable to litigation. As it happens it isn't, but not for the obvious reason -- the stakes are just too low in our D (shush! the court only cares about the kids and the money!) and the issue of spousal support is the only bone of contention for mediation/collaboration to pay off. We'd spend more time and money on mediators than we would simply agreeing to a support figure, getting one lawyer to draw up the papers and presenting it to a judge -- who will be more than happy to accept it as given and bang his gavel. But he's a Mojo Family Law guy out here and educated me.
So I get in the Urban Assault Vehicle (cleverly camouflaged as a Honda minivan) and text WAW: Done! Very interesting consultation - learned a lot. OK c u.
WAW phones instantly -- "Can you talk?" she asks guardedly.
Sure, just getting on the road here.
"So." [You know the one I mean. That "so."] "So it was interesting?"
Yes, I got a lot out of it. I feel much more comfortable talking about all this now. And then I basically described the upshot -- what I posted above about "litigation" (such as it would be) being more cost-effective; the difference between collaboration, mediation, and litigation; the low-probability that a court would order SP to see a vocational counselor (often done, especially in Coastal State, for SAHMs by the way).
"And?" [Here it comes. The money talk.]
And I'm not sure this is something we should talk about.
But WAW assures me it's no biggie, just curious, and so I lay it on her [and mind you, Mojo Lawyer would not be "my" lawyer in this situation if in fact we went to collaboration -- just "a" lawyer -- and he wasn't giving me legal advice, just expert info].
Sez I: You promise you're not going to attack me? ("Of course") You understand there was no advocacy, just information? ("Get on with it!") Okay. In his experience [40 years] he's never seen a court compel a lower-earning spouse who does what I do to get different work because we provide a societal benefit despite our low wages. So it would be lifetime support at roughly [Big, But Not Donald Trump Big, number], defined as until death or second marriage.
Ah-ooga! Ah-ooga! Go to DEFCON 2! Incoming FLASH priority message traffic! Surge the boomers! Scramble the bombers to their fail-safe points! "Well boys," said Major Kong, "I reckon this it -- nooklar combat toe-to-toe with the Russkies!"
And.She.Goes.Apesh*t.
Stone.Cold.Screaming.Hyperventilating.Weeping.Cursing.Apesh*t.
And we're off to the races. She offers me the house. No, really. The whole house. Clean. Or one of her other houses, and the rental income that goes with them. Or the cash equivalent. She says, and I sh*t you not, "I will give you anything! Anything! I can't be connected to you for life!"
And I tell her that I'm not going to discuss this (a) on the mobile phone and (b) with her in this condition and, by the way, I am not under any circumstances even going to listen to any so-called "offers" made with her being completely out of her mind like this, because I'm not going to take advantage of her like that -- these aren't real offers or even unreal offers, they're the random words of pure panic (and near-insanity, if you ask me).
Which she interprets as follows: "I reject your offer and demand support for life."
So she switches gears to the panoply of names she called me back on Thread #2 or #3. "Oh, I had an 'enlightening' consultation," she sneers, in that sneery sneer voice people use when they're making fun of you and sneering. "I knew it! I knew you would.... etc. etc."
And Smiley's Person can't get a word in edgewise. And he's trying, my friends -- oh how he's trying. Please calm down. Please. I didn't say -- now wait -- hold on -- it's not --
So I have to pull over into a parking lot. And she's going and going and going, and I'm saying "Look I'll call you back" and I'm getting "don't you dare hang up you worthless piece of sh*t! I should have dumped your a** 10 years ago! I knew you'd go for the jugular and try to f*** me in the a**! You either want to hurt me or hang onto me, why else would you want me writing checks to you when I'm 65?"
And finally she slows down and I ask, still -- I promise you, I know you don't want to believe me, but I promise you dear DB'ers -- still trying to validate, to "really 'hear,'" to not be the Wiseguy Smiley's Person I am held to be, I ask, "Can you tell me why this discussion always leads to this? Can you help me understand how you feel when you react like this? And for my own understanding, can you explain why you always seem to assume the worst about me? Do you not understand why these things hurt me so much? I understand that you're scared. That you're worried. That you're sad. You've said all that and I get it. But why does scared + worried + sad = [and here I have to 'fess up that I was a bit of a wiseguy, because I quoted her own words back to her] Smiley's Person is a worthless piece of sh*t whose a** you should have dumped 10 years ago because you knew he'd go for the jugular and f*** you in the a**? Why do you have to make me out to be such a bad person?"
"What do you mean? I never said that."
What? What? What? What? What? What? Is this Crazy Town?
So I try to redirect. Did you hear me say I wanted you writing checks when you're 65? Did you hear me say anything at all about jugulars or a**es? Did you even hear me say anything about the money?
"No."
No. And if I really was that bad, if I really wanted to hurt you, if I really didn't care about you or the quality of your life -- don't you think I would say something? Something on the order of 'F*** you, I'm taking all the money you heartless b*tch?'
"I suppose."
But I didn't say that, did I?
"No."
And I've never said that, have I?
"No."
And have you ever wondered why?
"No."
Well that hurts, too. That hurts almost as much as your assumption that I'm such a bad person. It's like you're not even the slightest bit curious about me. It's like I don't even really exist to you. I'm just this, this, this -- mannequin. "A**hole Smiley's Person." God knows what you tell your friends. You say you want to be friends, you say this, you say that, you say you want to get to know me again -- but every time, every f*cking time this subject comes up, your default position is that I'm a piece of sh*t. I'm not even sure I believe that you ever loved me.
"I can't believe you said that. I can't believe you're throwing that in my face. I don't throw your snooping in your face, poking your nose into my private thoughts."
Yeah, well I never said that was a right thing to do, have I? And I've never denied your feelings or your hurt, have I? But throwing that in my face, after what you called me --
"Once, when I was mad."
-- at least four times, throwing that in my face would be like sprinkling some sand on my face after chunking a brick at me. What's the point, really, when no matter what I do or say -- and let me remind you all I was doing was telling you what someone else said! -- you're going to react by painting me in the worst possible light. F*ck it. If this is as good as it gets, I think I'll be happier you're leaving than you are."
And then I lost her. God bless AT&T and their crappy connectivity.
--------------------------------
Pffffffffffffffw. Man, it was bad. And I don't even care. I'm glad I fought back. I'm glad I said what I said. I'm sort of tired of being noble and sh*t. I want to be an a**hole for a while.
And it's got nothing to do with Friendiness -- if she needs a helping hand, I'll offer one. Because that's how I Roll, dammit. I'll offer compassion even if it costs me emotionally -- especially if it costs me emotionally, because it's easy to be compassionate when it's easy to be compassionate.
And the ironic thing? The definition of "life" is "death or marriage." And the number is big, so to speak, but not live-on-it-in-lieu-of-a-job big, not Hamptons/Outer Banks/Aspen/Malibu big, not George-and-Weezie-movin'-on-up big. And it's certainly not big enough that I would forgo love and marriage for it. Which she would know. Because she knows I like marriage. And the whole thing would have blown over in the first 5 minutes. If she'd just given me a chance to finish my sentence. But instead, she did what WAS does. She went right to the mattresses. She assumed the worst. She redefined me.
And yes -- I know she's stressed and hurting and etc. I'm not denying the essential correctness of the post I wrote above, via @Greek. I'm not.
But her stress and hurt is not a blank check. It's not a license to ignore my reality, my Truth, just because it's inconvenient. Not to my face. If she wants to Make Believe in her mind, more power to her.
But I'm dammed if I'm going to sit idly by while I get disrespected like that. Not when I'm doing what I do for me and the kids. Not when I'm trying to Roll My Way and Walk My Path. And I'm not asking for "fairness" or "justice" or "payback." I'm not talking about Schnarch's "covert contract." I'm talking about simple respect. As a man. As a father. As the father of her children. So -- Just. F*ck. That.
I'll take my godd*m mojo and football and go home.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 02:29 AM
Damn
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 02:36 AM
SP, I was a little down and got a chuckle reading your post.
I'm glad you said what you did. Sounds like you hadled it well. And, I love the Dr. Strangelove reference.
Good luck man.
I'm glad you said what you did. Sounds like you hadled it well. And, I love the Dr. Strangelove reference.
Good luck man.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 02:36 AM
Wow, you know the hot button issue don't you!
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 02:46 AM
SP,
Read your post.
Don't know what I could say or offer except I admire the way you keep yourself so level and so damned decent and caring in the face of such incoming...
And re: your penultimate paragraph.... proud to know ya.
You kids have one helluva father...
And amidst the all the s**t, you always crack me up.
Read your post.
Don't know what I could say or offer except I admire the way you keep yourself so level and so damned decent and caring in the face of such incoming...
And re: your penultimate paragraph.... proud to know ya.
You kids have one helluva father...
And amidst the all the s**t, you always crack me up.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:14 AM
You know, in each of our Sitch's, there seems to be one key thing that our S's want, one key assumption that they have made in their planning and fantasies, that is key to their whole concept.
SP, in your case, the assumption your W made seems to be that she could cut and run quickly without long term financial ties to you. You should, instead, offer to let her go without compensation for your years of supporting her career.
In my sitch, my W made the assumption that when she demanded it, I would leave the house and her life while otherwise enabling her to live her life (her ability to live her in this house in this neighborhood with her friends and her kids with her 100%) completely intact. I should, instead, suffer all of the dislocation, separation from the kids, and financial difficulties.
In O-Dog's case, it seems to be the assumption that the C13 split would remain unaffected so that his W could also continue to afford to live in the house she was living in. O-Dog should, instead, eat the impact to him.
In other cases, the assumption seems to be that the LBS would always be around as a friend, etc.
At any rate, these assumptions always seem to be there, buried somewhere in the leaving spouses plan. And when the LBS sees those assumptions and (knowingly or not) refuses to play along. When the LBS stands up for themselves on this one point, and stands up and says "wait, I'm a person too and that's not what my side of the story says" all h@ll breaks lose.
This would seem to be the pressure point that breaks open the discussion and brings people to the decision point - stay or go.
SP, your W is now faced with the reality that even if she runs she will never be "free".
My W is now faced with the reality that by running she will (also) have to make lifestyle changes and sacrifices and admit openly to the world what is happening.
It's our job to stand up for ourselves, hold on to our N.U.T.S. and not back down in the face of the storm. Good Job SP!!!
But we can't control our spouses decision now. We have to show them that there is a cliff, and not voluntarily jump off it ourselves. It's their decision now whether they back away as well, or jump.
Good Luck SP. I think you did a great job there.
Thinker
SP, in your case, the assumption your W made seems to be that she could cut and run quickly without long term financial ties to you. You should, instead, offer to let her go without compensation for your years of supporting her career.
In my sitch, my W made the assumption that when she demanded it, I would leave the house and her life while otherwise enabling her to live her life (her ability to live her in this house in this neighborhood with her friends and her kids with her 100%) completely intact. I should, instead, suffer all of the dislocation, separation from the kids, and financial difficulties.
In O-Dog's case, it seems to be the assumption that the C13 split would remain unaffected so that his W could also continue to afford to live in the house she was living in. O-Dog should, instead, eat the impact to him.
In other cases, the assumption seems to be that the LBS would always be around as a friend, etc.
At any rate, these assumptions always seem to be there, buried somewhere in the leaving spouses plan. And when the LBS sees those assumptions and (knowingly or not) refuses to play along. When the LBS stands up for themselves on this one point, and stands up and says "wait, I'm a person too and that's not what my side of the story says" all h@ll breaks lose.
This would seem to be the pressure point that breaks open the discussion and brings people to the decision point - stay or go.
SP, your W is now faced with the reality that even if she runs she will never be "free".
My W is now faced with the reality that by running she will (also) have to make lifestyle changes and sacrifices and admit openly to the world what is happening.
It's our job to stand up for ourselves, hold on to our N.U.T.S. and not back down in the face of the storm. Good Job SP!!!
But we can't control our spouses decision now. We have to show them that there is a cliff, and not voluntarily jump off it ourselves. It's their decision now whether they back away as well, or jump.
Good Luck SP. I think you did a great job there.
Thinker
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:17 AM
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<applauding SP! Good for you for standing up to her! Guess she should have considered ALL of the ramifications of leaving you, especially if she has wanted to do it for 10 years!
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:17 AM
Amen Thinker.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 04:35 AM
Wow! Does your mojo protect you from waterboarding too? Just amazing how you withstood that tantrum.
Yes, the WAS have a plan and a vision. Don't wreck it by getting a life or standing up for yourself or anything like that. No sirree!
Ok, enough sarcasm. But we've read (and lived with) the script. Our GAL has "artistic differences" with their writer.
Hold fast.
Yes, the WAS have a plan and a vision. Don't wreck it by getting a life or standing up for yourself or anything like that. No sirree!
Ok, enough sarcasm. But we've read (and lived with) the script. Our GAL has "artistic differences" with their writer.
Hold fast.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:26 AM
SP,
I am amazed at the ostrich mentality of your wife going into this. Did she not consult a lawyer herself before now? didn't she hear the same thing? Is this really news? And if it is news, then does it make her want to rethink her choice? Cuz it seems like she really just wants to unleash her very ugly anger on you. No, you have no incentive to protect her from what is considered fair in the world. You don't have to make her life perfect. And it seems that you are doing just fine.
I am amazed at the ostrich mentality of your wife going into this. Did she not consult a lawyer herself before now? didn't she hear the same thing? Is this really news? And if it is news, then does it make her want to rethink her choice? Cuz it seems like she really just wants to unleash her very ugly anger on you. No, you have no incentive to protect her from what is considered fair in the world. You don't have to make her life perfect. And it seems that you are doing just fine.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 11:41 AM
@Sara wrote, "I am amazed at the ostrich mentality of your wife going into this."
Man, that gets the DB pulitzer for best metaphor. That is it to a Tee. She recognizes it, too. I asked her about that once and she said "There's a lot I would have done differently since February if I'd known what it would be like."
Now mind you, her "plan" -- and the air quotes are deliberate -- was to keep the D secret in her mind while pursuing Signore Schmuckatelli, and I finished my (now 5 months behind schedule) book. [Person, you're mind-reading! No -- that's what she told me.]
Her friends -- including 2 who were in our wedding party (nice) -- would know. A couple co-workers -- both of whom regularly saw me (nice) -- would know. (About the D and Signore Schmuckatelli.) She would know.
Of course, I wouldn't know.
She doesn't get how that hurts, either, incidentally. How the idea that she'd let me be ignorant, thinking I was married, would be hurtful to a person -- let alone this Person.
So given that "plan" -- which really wasn't much of a plan, really -- she presumably would have figured out the nit-noid details. But that IS mind-reading, because who knows?
"Ostrich mentality." More common than not, I'd think.
So here's a tip from Smiley's Person for both LBS and WAS, with respect to the money. This might be unique to Coastal State, but it doesn't sound like it.
For a while now, WAW has been saying that, after she moves out, it will be okay for us to "not rush" the D. "What's the rush? Why hurry?"
[I'm not accusing WAW in what follows of nefarious intent -- as one can gather from the past 2 days, thorough planning is apparently not her strong suit -- it just came up in the convo with Mojo Lawyer.]
Now this notion, "let's not rush," can sound very appealing to DB'ing LBS. Great! I get time to DB! I get time to chase the snakes out of my brain!
But it's dangerous for LBS in legal terms, as I understand it. Here's why (and this is why it's a tip to both WAS and LBS, depending on who is the higher-earner):
Courts are actually reluctant to intervene in marriages and divorces, @fb2's experiences and anger to the contrary notwithstanding. As Mojo Family Law Guy said yesterday, "You think judges don't want to go home and have dinner with their families?" So courts like the Status Quo. Whatever the SQ is.
So if WAS says, "let's not rush," and then pays LBS some amount of money -- pays the bills, for example -- AND if that amount of money is less than LBS would get as alimony/spousal support and/or child support in a full, adjudicated divorce settlement (i.e., the state's defined minimum or "guideline"), the courts are likely to take that amount as the de facto agreed-upon alimony -- even though it's less than the "guideline" or state minimum -- once it's gone on for a certain (undefined) period of time.
In other words "let's not rush the D" can -- can -- be a strategic delaying tactic by the would-be alimony-payer. You think WAS (for example, though not always -- see @Thinker's thread, not that he'd do this) is being "cooperative" or "open," when in fact WAS (particularly if advised by counsel) is setting you up to get less than you are entitled to under the law.
-----
Again, I'm not saying WAW is doing this, and in fact I don't think she is -- that would presume knowledge she has demonstrably not had. Would she have done that, had she known the facts?
Blechh. Much as it pains me to say it..... I don't know. I'm not confident she wouldn't have done. And man how it hurts to say that.
Man, that gets the DB pulitzer for best metaphor. That is it to a Tee. She recognizes it, too. I asked her about that once and she said "There's a lot I would have done differently since February if I'd known what it would be like."
Now mind you, her "plan" -- and the air quotes are deliberate -- was to keep the D secret in her mind while pursuing Signore Schmuckatelli, and I finished my (now 5 months behind schedule) book. [Person, you're mind-reading! No -- that's what she told me.]
Her friends -- including 2 who were in our wedding party (nice) -- would know. A couple co-workers -- both of whom regularly saw me (nice) -- would know. (About the D and Signore Schmuckatelli.) She would know.
Of course, I wouldn't know.
She doesn't get how that hurts, either, incidentally. How the idea that she'd let me be ignorant, thinking I was married, would be hurtful to a person -- let alone this Person.
So given that "plan" -- which really wasn't much of a plan, really -- she presumably would have figured out the nit-noid details. But that IS mind-reading, because who knows?
"Ostrich mentality." More common than not, I'd think.
So here's a tip from Smiley's Person for both LBS and WAS, with respect to the money. This might be unique to Coastal State, but it doesn't sound like it.
For a while now, WAW has been saying that, after she moves out, it will be okay for us to "not rush" the D. "What's the rush? Why hurry?"
[I'm not accusing WAW in what follows of nefarious intent -- as one can gather from the past 2 days, thorough planning is apparently not her strong suit -- it just came up in the convo with Mojo Lawyer.]
Now this notion, "let's not rush," can sound very appealing to DB'ing LBS. Great! I get time to DB! I get time to chase the snakes out of my brain!
But it's dangerous for LBS in legal terms, as I understand it. Here's why (and this is why it's a tip to both WAS and LBS, depending on who is the higher-earner):
Courts are actually reluctant to intervene in marriages and divorces, @fb2's experiences and anger to the contrary notwithstanding. As Mojo Family Law Guy said yesterday, "You think judges don't want to go home and have dinner with their families?" So courts like the Status Quo. Whatever the SQ is.
So if WAS says, "let's not rush," and then pays LBS some amount of money -- pays the bills, for example -- AND if that amount of money is less than LBS would get as alimony/spousal support and/or child support in a full, adjudicated divorce settlement (i.e., the state's defined minimum or "guideline"), the courts are likely to take that amount as the de facto agreed-upon alimony -- even though it's less than the "guideline" or state minimum -- once it's gone on for a certain (undefined) period of time.
In other words "let's not rush the D" can -- can -- be a strategic delaying tactic by the would-be alimony-payer. You think WAS (for example, though not always -- see @Thinker's thread, not that he'd do this) is being "cooperative" or "open," when in fact WAS (particularly if advised by counsel) is setting you up to get less than you are entitled to under the law.
-----
Again, I'm not saying WAW is doing this, and in fact I don't think she is -- that would presume knowledge she has demonstrably not had. Would she have done that, had she known the facts?
Blechh. Much as it pains me to say it..... I don't know. I'm not confident she wouldn't have done. And man how it hurts to say that.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 11:46 AM
@Sara then wrote -- being a very smart @Sara indeed! -- "And if it is news, then does it make her want to rethink her choice?"
If it does, she's not indicated as such, in word or deed. (The moving boxes and suitcases piled high in the garage would tend to support that conclusion, IMO.)
If it does, she's not indicated as such, in word or deed. (The moving boxes and suitcases piled high in the garage would tend to support that conclusion, IMO.)
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 11:49 AM
@Coach wrote: "The ROE say you can't take out WAS. Just handle it the best you can right now."
That's right. I know that. And like I wrote, I might get plenty of revengy glee out of it -- when I write my divorce book, maybe I'll use my real name and not "Smiley's Person" as a pseud, LOL -- but it would do the girl-child and boy-child no good.
And what's good for the girl-child and the boy-child is my lighthouse these days -- it illuminates the Way I Must Roll.
That's right. I know that. And like I wrote, I might get plenty of revengy glee out of it -- when I write my divorce book, maybe I'll use my real name and not "Smiley's Person" as a pseud, LOL -- but it would do the girl-child and boy-child no good.
And what's good for the girl-child and the boy-child is my lighthouse these days -- it illuminates the Way I Must Roll.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 11:54 AM
S9 has started biting his nails. All of a sudden I'm constantly nagging him to get his fingers out of his mouth. It's a pacifier. A reaction to the stress he must be boiling over with inside.
Picked him up at day-camp yesterday, and he said, "Daddy, I don't know why, but I feel all teary."
D6 was sitting at the table, cutting out some pictures she'd drawn while I was cooking their dinner, and she said, "Lookit Daddy -- this is the doggie's new house." Pause. "But I don't like talking about that."
Fairness. Justice. Validate. Really hear. Chase the snakes out of the brain. Spew raincoat. What Would Jesus Do. Differentiated. Does this get me closer to my goal or farther away. Hold on to your N.U.T.S. Don't mind read. No control. Drop the rope. Judge not lest ye be judged.
Brain, meet Messrs. Smith & Wesson.....
Picked him up at day-camp yesterday, and he said, "Daddy, I don't know why, but I feel all teary."
D6 was sitting at the table, cutting out some pictures she'd drawn while I was cooking their dinner, and she said, "Lookit Daddy -- this is the doggie's new house." Pause. "But I don't like talking about that."
Fairness. Justice. Validate. Really hear. Chase the snakes out of the brain. Spew raincoat. What Would Jesus Do. Differentiated. Does this get me closer to my goal or farther away. Hold on to your N.U.T.S. Don't mind read. No control. Drop the rope. Judge not lest ye be judged.
Brain, meet Messrs. Smith & Wesson.....
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 12:01 PM
For some of us, for the Heathenic among us perhaps, this is why the idea of sex during separation isn't an unappealing idea.
To have that human connection, even for a half-hour (yeah, right, keep dreaming, old boy!
), sure sounds good right about now, fleeting, transitory, and even meaningless though it might be. To just be wanted, regardless of the reason why, by another adult, for one day, instead of constantly picking at the scab of our rejection by Who We Thought Was The One. 'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished, said the Dane.
To have that human connection, even for a half-hour (yeah, right, keep dreaming, old boy!
), sure sounds good right about now, fleeting, transitory, and even meaningless though it might be. To just be wanted, regardless of the reason why, by another adult, for one day, instead of constantly picking at the scab of our rejection by Who We Thought Was The One. 'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished, said the Dane.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 12:35 PM
SP,
Nothing to add, just that I'm thinking of and praying for you, your children, and your W.
Stacy
Nothing to add, just that I'm thinking of and praying for you, your children, and your W.
Stacy
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 01:36 PM
Smiley,
No words of wisdom, just wanted to say your descriptions of what you are going through with your kids have made me redouble my efforts not to have to tell our kids the same if I can possibly help it.
No words of wisdom, just wanted to say your descriptions of what you are going through with your kids have made me redouble my efforts not to have to tell our kids the same if I can possibly help it.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 01:50 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I'm about to post a barn-burner,
I'll take my godd*m mojo and football and go home.
I'll take my godd*m mojo and football and go home.
SP - I say this was all good. You would be surprised how many times I've had to do this FOR ME when I was in a discussion with my H. The WA gets so caught up in THEMSELVES, THEIR feelings, what THEY want, that they stop seeing us as living, breathing, feeling people.
My H recently told me how much he respected me at the times I did this. Because DB by nature is easy going, validating, non-confrontational, whatever you want - THEY forget US. Yoo - hoo, remember me? A person you once loved enough to marry?
And this is necessary for US sometimes, because you can only let the rain roll off you for so long.
Now I might be wrong - and I am sure someone will tell me that - but we all need to dig deep and find our brass ones once in a while.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 02:37 PM
SP, The times I lost my cool the most was talking about the legal side of this because it revolved around how to split time with the kids and money. Two very emotional issues. Nothing wrong with saying how you feel and what you see as the consequences of this for all parties.
I found out later it scared the Greek as well. At the time I didn't really pick up on that vibe but she admitted that it helped her think thru her choices. Your wife is scared and reacted, you handled it well by calling her on her mind reading.
Sometimes the fangs do come out. Not pretty but it sends a signal. Keep up the good fight.
Strength and Honor.
Coach
I found out later it scared the Greek as well. At the time I didn't really pick up on that vibe but she admitted that it helped her think thru her choices. Your wife is scared and reacted, you handled it well by calling her on her mind reading.
Sometimes the fangs do come out. Not pretty but it sends a signal. Keep up the good fight.
Strength and Honor.
Coach
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 02:57 PM
I am speaking from my own experience here but I feel that the WAS becomes filled with rage when the LBS shows a caring, compassionate and understanding side (as you have been doing) but still takes care of themselves on the legal side.
My H was floored (and angry as hell) that I counter sued him for his affair along with several other counts of cruel and inhumane treatment. But that is how it goes. It wasnt revenge, it wasnt anger it was the legal option that was available to me so I took advantage of it. I didnt do so in some big dramatic way. I quietly filed my paperwork and went about my business.
I feel the WAS thinks becuase you arent sobbing and begging and pleading and appear to be "ok" they feel the legal portion will be smooth. That is not to say it cant be smooth but smooth does not mean you will roll over and not use all legal avenues available to you based on the laws of your state and the situation at hand.
My H and I tried to do a collaborative law divorce and it got us nowhere fast. I refused to use one attny because in my state one attny can only represent one person in the divorce and my H wasnted the representation which would have required me to waive my rights to counsel. LOL! Um, no. The only way I would have agreed to that was if HE waived HIS rights to counsel and he said no, he would not do that. Well, I wont either.
The rush of a new house, new R, new freedom and so on for a WAS ends real quick when they see that yes, the LBS might be approaching the D with grace but they certainly wont be plowed down as far as a settlement goes.
I made it perfectly clear to my H I had no intentions of working w/him on a settlement if that meant him swearing, making excuses, using cliches and other WAS BS or being ugly. And that is the exact reason I have my attny working for me. I am all for productive discussion with a WAS when it comes settlement time but I will not be a punching bag for a series of very poor choices my H made in handling the D.
I am sorry you have had such a rough time.
My H was floored (and angry as hell) that I counter sued him for his affair along with several other counts of cruel and inhumane treatment. But that is how it goes. It wasnt revenge, it wasnt anger it was the legal option that was available to me so I took advantage of it. I didnt do so in some big dramatic way. I quietly filed my paperwork and went about my business.
I feel the WAS thinks becuase you arent sobbing and begging and pleading and appear to be "ok" they feel the legal portion will be smooth. That is not to say it cant be smooth but smooth does not mean you will roll over and not use all legal avenues available to you based on the laws of your state and the situation at hand.
My H and I tried to do a collaborative law divorce and it got us nowhere fast. I refused to use one attny because in my state one attny can only represent one person in the divorce and my H wasnted the representation which would have required me to waive my rights to counsel. LOL! Um, no. The only way I would have agreed to that was if HE waived HIS rights to counsel and he said no, he would not do that. Well, I wont either.
The rush of a new house, new R, new freedom and so on for a WAS ends real quick when they see that yes, the LBS might be approaching the D with grace but they certainly wont be plowed down as far as a settlement goes.
I made it perfectly clear to my H I had no intentions of working w/him on a settlement if that meant him swearing, making excuses, using cliches and other WAS BS or being ugly. And that is the exact reason I have my attny working for me. I am all for productive discussion with a WAS when it comes settlement time but I will not be a punching bag for a series of very poor choices my H made in handling the D.
I am sorry you have had such a rough time.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Storm Rider
Smiley,
No words of wisdom, just wanted to say your descriptions of what you are going through with your kids have made me redouble my efforts not to have to tell our kids the same if I can possibly help it.
No words of wisdom, just wanted to say your descriptions of what you are going through with your kids have made me redouble my efforts not to have to tell our kids the same if I can possibly help it.
This! Except that's why my H bailed now - because he'd rather do this when our kids are 1 and NOT EVEN BORN than ten years from now. Like it makes a damn difference in the end.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:10 PM
Originally Posted By: dmk127
Originally Posted By: Storm Rider
Smiley,
No words of wisdom, just wanted to say your descriptions of what you are going through with your kids have made me redouble my efforts not to have to tell our kids the same if I can possibly help it.
No words of wisdom, just wanted to say your descriptions of what you are going through with your kids have made me redouble my efforts not to have to tell our kids the same if I can possibly help it.
This! Except that's why my H bailed now - because he'd rather do this when our kids are 1 and NOT EVEN BORN than ten years from now. Like it makes a damn difference in the end.
DMK,
You still have time. You are so new to this. Don't lose hope. I mean that, really, despite what H might have said. Just my 2 cents.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:11 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
... her "plan" ... was to keep the D secret in her mind while pursuing Signore Schmuckatelli,...
Her friends ... would know. ... She would know.
Of course, I wouldn't know.
She doesn't get how that hurts, either, incidentally. How the idea that she'd let me be ignorant, thinking I was married, would be hurtful to a person -- let alone this Person.
Her friends ... would know. ... She would know.
Of course, I wouldn't know.
She doesn't get how that hurts, either, incidentally. How the idea that she'd let me be ignorant, thinking I was married, would be hurtful to a person -- let alone this Person.
I understand this and feel this myself - completely.
I was confused by it. I tried to understand why the fact that my W had been planning, and might still or again be secretly planning a D and an escape to an OM hurt more than the idea of D itself. It did not make sense to me, and I wrote about it on my thread saying "I am more afraid of betrayal than I am of D"
And then something in "Passionate Marriage" helped me to understand that my hurt was real and why it hurt so much. I am paraphrasing here, but Schnarch pointed out that when one spouse lies and keeps plans or actions (or an A) secret, then they are taking away the other spouses freedom and right to think, feel and act. In effect, they are saying "I am important and have the right to do things that are in my interest, but you are not important and do not have the same rights or even the right to react to what I am doing"
And this is why, when my W spews and says "I don't love you" and "I want to leave" and "I am not attracted to you" it doesn't really hurt. I even got over it when she expressed her feelings for OM. I have accepted that. I realize that she feels that way, and that it is her version of reality, and she has every right to feel it, but that it does not define me. But....
When my W lies to me, when I realized that she had been carrying on an EA with OM for some time without ever even telling me she was unhappy, when I found letters where she talked about her desire / plans to get D'd by the end of the year that were written before we had even started talking about any of this ---- NOW THAT HURT!! It hurt badly.
You are completely right SP. What hurts is the realization that your spouse has so little regard for you that they don't even see you as another person - just a resource to be used for a while during the planning phase, and then a barrier to be manipulated past.
We all have to pick ourselves up after the blow that this realization delivers to our ego's. I know I sure did. I also think this is a barrier that we all have to set - "I matter and you are not going to do that to me!"
I think you're doing great.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:18 PM
Originally Posted By: dmk127
Originally Posted By: Storm Rider
Smiley,
No words of wisdom, just wanted to say your descriptions of what you are going through with your kids have made me redouble my efforts not to have to tell our kids the same if I can possibly help it.
No words of wisdom, just wanted to say your descriptions of what you are going through with your kids have made me redouble my efforts not to have to tell our kids the same if I can possibly help it.
This! Except that's why my H bailed now - because he'd rather do this when our kids are 1 and NOT EVEN BORN than ten years from now. Like it makes a damn difference in the end.
Don't be too concerned about that DMK. I know it hurts, and it is frustrating. My W said the same thing - She doesn't wan't to hurt the kids when they are older and they are really used to having a family, so she thinks we should break it off now while they are still young.
Crazy I know, but it is all part of the script. Your H is looking for any rationalization he can hold onto to justify running now.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:24 PM
Hey SP ~~~
Yours was a FAIR exchange. Do NOT beat yourself up for any emotion you displayed or reaction or even what you said. Look here, the legal side s*cks and and this is one area where the WAS is completely responsible if they are the one who filed first - which Mrs. SP did.
So, she is completely responsible for introducing this fresh hell into the M.
You have no obligation to help her feel better about the sh!t that is now hitting the fan. It is the REALITY of a move SHE made. Do not protect her from it and it sounds like you get that.
Coach played hardball with me legally ~~~ it INFURIATED me, and scared me half to death. Did I think about it ahead of time ~~~ yes, sir. But reality bites.
I think you handled yourself WELL.
Can't wait to see how she processes this.
Cheers ~~~
Yours was a FAIR exchange. Do NOT beat yourself up for any emotion you displayed or reaction or even what you said. Look here, the legal side s*cks and and this is one area where the WAS is completely responsible if they are the one who filed first - which Mrs. SP did.
So, she is completely responsible for introducing this fresh hell into the M.
You have no obligation to help her feel better about the sh!t that is now hitting the fan. It is the REALITY of a move SHE made. Do not protect her from it and it sounds like you get that.
Coach played hardball with me legally ~~~ it INFURIATED me, and scared me half to death. Did I think about it ahead of time ~~~ yes, sir. But reality bites.
I think you handled yourself WELL.
Can't wait to see how she processes this.
Cheers ~~~
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:38 PM
Quote:
Coach played hardball with me legally ~~~ it INFURIATED me, and scared me half to death. Did I think about it ahead of time ~~~ yes, sir. But reality bites.
not to rewrite history or anything but INFURIATED is a little tame.
but hey if anger was good then INFURIATED was really good!
Cheers
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:46 PM
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
DMK,
You still have time. You are so new to this. Don't lose hope. I mean that, really, despite what H might have said. Just my 2 cents.
Wifey,
I know... H had a few things to say during MC yesterday that did give me hope... I just have to give him time...
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:48 PM
Thinker,
I hadn't seen this before, must have gotten a phone call when I was listening to that part of Passionate Marriage on CD while stuck in traffic... But, what you cite here is such a strong emotion the LBS feels... and it, too, is "script"...
I can so distinctly remember having this feeling that to her, I was merely background noise and an annoyance to put up with, until and while she carried out her secret plans...
I even got the line: "Why do you care if I do whatever I want to do, we're already psycholgically separated."
Your mantra is one that all LBS's have to remember when dealing with that feeling under similar circumstances...
-AlexEN
I hadn't seen this before, must have gotten a phone call when I was listening to that part of Passionate Marriage on CD while stuck in traffic... But, what you cite here is such a strong emotion the LBS feels... and it, too, is "script"...
Quote:
A...Schnarch pointed out that when one spouse lies and keeps plans or actions (or an A) secret, then they are taking away the other spouses freedom and right to think, feel and act. In effect, they are saying "I am important and have the right to do things that are in my interest, but you are not important and do not have the same rights or even the right to react to what I am doing"
...What hurts is the realization that your spouse has so little regard for you that they don't even see you as another person - just a resource to be used for a while during the planning phase, and then a barrier to be manipulated past.
...I also think this is a barrier that we all have to set - "I matter and you are not going to do that to me!"
...What hurts is the realization that your spouse has so little regard for you that they don't even see you as another person - just a resource to be used for a while during the planning phase, and then a barrier to be manipulated past.
...I also think this is a barrier that we all have to set - "I matter and you are not going to do that to me!"
I can so distinctly remember having this feeling that to her, I was merely background noise and an annoyance to put up with, until and while she carried out her secret plans...
I even got the line: "Why do you care if I do whatever I want to do, we're already psycholgically separated."
Your mantra is one that all LBS's have to remember when dealing with that feeling under similar circumstances...
-AlexEN
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:55 PM
Quote:
I even got the line: "Why do you care if I do whatever I want to do, we're already psycholgically separated."
And the honest answer is "If we are "psychologically separated" then I should't care, and you shouldn't care that I know what you are doing."
But you do care, because if I were to know what you were doing, then I would change my own actions accordingly, and you don't want that.
So by not being honest and open about what you are doing, you are trying to control me and taking away my freedom to act.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 03:58 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
But I'm dammed if I'm going to sit idly by while I get disrespected like that. Not when I'm doing what I do for me and the kids. Not when I'm trying to Roll My Way and Walk My Path. And I'm not asking for "fairness" or "justice" or "payback." I'm not talking about Schnarch's "covert contract." I'm talking about simple respect. As a man. As a father. As the father of her children. So -- Just. F*ck. That.
I'll take my godd*m mojo and football and go home.
OK, I'm 14 hours late to the stadium, and I see by the little red numbers in the upper corner of my screen that there's still two more PAGES of responses, but before more time slips away from me:
STANDING. F&CKING. OVATION.
That's five Puppy whistles. I don't think I've ever given more than three.
Damn, son.
Puppy
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 04:01 PM
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Thinker,
I hadn't seen this before, must have gotten a phone call when I was listening to that part of Passionate Marriage on CD while stuck in traffic... But, what you cite here is such a strong emotion the LBS feels... and it, too, is "script"...
I can so distinctly remember having this feeling that to her, I was merely background noise and an annoyance to put up with, until and while she carried out her secret plans...
I even got the line: "Why do you care if I do whatever I want to do, we're already psycholgically separated."
Your mantra is one that all LBS's have to remember when dealing with that feeling under similar circumstances...
-AlexEN
I hadn't seen this before, must have gotten a phone call when I was listening to that part of Passionate Marriage on CD while stuck in traffic... But, what you cite here is such a strong emotion the LBS feels... and it, too, is "script"...
Quote:
A...Schnarch pointed out that when one spouse lies and keeps plans or actions (or an A) secret, then they are taking away the other spouses freedom and right to think, feel and act. In effect, they are saying "I am important and have the right to do things that are in my interest, but you are not important and do not have the same rights or even the right to react to what I am doing"
...What hurts is the realization that your spouse has so little regard for you that they don't even see you as another person - just a resource to be used for a while during the planning phase, and then a barrier to be manipulated past.
...I also think this is a barrier that we all have to set - "I matter and you are not going to do that to me!"
...What hurts is the realization that your spouse has so little regard for you that they don't even see you as another person - just a resource to be used for a while during the planning phase, and then a barrier to be manipulated past.
...I also think this is a barrier that we all have to set - "I matter and you are not going to do that to me!"
I can so distinctly remember having this feeling that to her, I was merely background noise and an annoyance to put up with, until and while she carried out her secret plans...
I even got the line: "Why do you care if I do whatever I want to do, we're already psycholgically separated."
Your mantra is one that all LBS's have to remember when dealing with that feeling under similar circumstances...
-AlexEN
I think that's the essence of compassion is showing another person that they matter to you.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 04:09 PM
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Now I might be wrong - and I am sure someone will tell me that - but we all need to dig deep and find our brass ones once in a while.
Wifey,
You aren't wrong, but I'm having another one of those bad mental images... This time conflicting ones...
First, I see Captain Queeg with his brass balls... and, I guess, those are the ones we cannot let the LBS drive us toward in their Mutiny...
But, I also chuckle when women make reference to getting, finding or growing some brass ones... I can't remember who it was, but another LBS of the female persuasion made such a comment not too long ago... May have been @A&K?
Although, the more I think about it I like the brass balls reference, as long as the LBS is conscious of not letting the WAS's actions make us into Captain Queeg...
By standing up as @Thinker and others have said above, the LBS can turn the tables, by instead allowing the WAS to become battle-weary and paranoid. Because, if I remember the story correctly, he played with his brass balls when he was anxious and it was his instability and hypocrisy at the time of crisis that led to the Mutiny that saved the ship from disaster.
So, let's put the brass balls in the hands of the WAS... and find another metaphor for what the LBS needs to find, especially the women-folk...
-AlexEN
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 04:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
But....
When my W lies to me, when I realized that she had been carrying on an EA with OM for some time without ever even telling me she was unhappy, when I found letters where she talked about her desire / plans to get D'd by the end of the year that were written before we had even started talking about any of this ---- NOW THAT HURT!! It hurt badly.
You are completely right SP. What hurts is the realization that your spouse has so little regard for you that they don't even see you as another person - just a resource to be used for a while during the planning phase, and then a barrier to be manipulated past.
When my W lies to me, when I realized that she had been carrying on an EA with OM for some time without ever even telling me she was unhappy, when I found letters where she talked about her desire / plans to get D'd by the end of the year that were written before we had even started talking about any of this ---- NOW THAT HURT!! It hurt badly.
You are completely right SP. What hurts is the realization that your spouse has so little regard for you that they don't even see you as another person - just a resource to be used for a while during the planning phase, and then a barrier to be manipulated past.
GOD, this is a great thread. Epic. I hope the mods stickey this one for the archives. There's just way too much good, deep truth in these to digest them all!
Puppy
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 04:15 PM
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Thinker,
I hadn't seen this before, must have gotten a phone call when I was listening to that part of Passionate Marriage on CD while stuck in traffic... But, what you cite here is such a strong emotion the LBS feels... and it, too, is "script"...
I can so distinctly remember having this feeling that to her, I was merely background noise and an annoyance to put up with, until and while she carried out her secret plans...
I hadn't seen this before, must have gotten a phone call when I was listening to that part of Passionate Marriage on CD while stuck in traffic... But, what you cite here is such a strong emotion the LBS feels... and it, too, is "script"...
Quote:
A...Schnarch pointed out that when one spouse lies and keeps plans or actions (or an A) secret, then they are taking away the other spouses freedom and right to think, feel and act. In effect, they are saying "I am important and have the right to do things that are in my interest, but you are not important and do not have the same rights or even the right to react to what I am doing"
...What hurts is the realization that your spouse has so little regard for you that they don't even see you as another person - just a resource to be used for a while during the planning phase, and then a barrier to be manipulated past.
...I also think this is a barrier that we all have to set - "I matter and you are not going to do that to me!"
...What hurts is the realization that your spouse has so little regard for you that they don't even see you as another person - just a resource to be used for a while during the planning phase, and then a barrier to be manipulated past.
...I also think this is a barrier that we all have to set - "I matter and you are not going to do that to me!"
I can so distinctly remember having this feeling that to her, I was merely background noise and an annoyance to put up with, until and while she carried out her secret plans...
Me too! This SO describes how I felt! I had never really put a finger on it until now.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 04:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
So by not being honest and open about what you are doing, you are trying to control me and taking away my freedom to act.
Responding to my own post here (I know, bad form
, but this topic hit a hot button and got me worked up...)The line I get whenever I catch my W at a lie, or discover her doing something secretively, or when she doesn't want to tell me what she is thinking is "I didn't want to tell you because I knew you'd get angry. See, your angry, so I was right not to tell you"
And now I finally understand why this makes me so angry. It's not what she is doing - I normally get over that quickly. It's also not the lie itself - although it takes me longer to get over that. It's the infuriating fact that she wants to be able to do something that she "knows" will make me angry, without me having the right to decide whether or not to get angry about it.
It's all about control and respect.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 04:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Quote:
I even got the line: "Why do you care if I do whatever I want to do, we're already psycholgically separated."
And the honest answer is "If we are "psychologically separated" then I should't care, and you shouldn't care that I know what you are doing."
But you do care, because if I were to know what you were doing, then I would change my own actions accordingly, and you don't want that.
So by not being honest and open about what you are doing, you are trying to control me and taking away my freedom to act.
BINGO!
Man, this morning is an epiphany-a-minute!!!
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 04:29 PM
And the short form of the lesson is:
----
Wayward Spouse Says:
"I don't want to tell you, because you are trying to control me!"
when in reality...
Wayward Spouse Means:
"I don't want to tell you, because I am trying to control you"
-----
Stand up for yourself. You matter and you have a right to know and to act for yourself.
----
Wayward Spouse Says:
"I don't want to tell you, because you are trying to control me!"
when in reality...
Wayward Spouse Means:
"I don't want to tell you, because I am trying to control you"
-----
Stand up for yourself. You matter and you have a right to know and to act for yourself.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 04:29 PM
Quote:
But, I also chuckle when women make reference to getting, finding or growing some brass ones... I can't remember who it was, but another LBS of the female persuasion made such a comment not too long ago... May have been @A&K?
I might have said balls but probably not "brass balls."
Mojo, balls, fortitude...what have you. Someone has to be steady.
But, when the sh*t hits the fan, it is a frickin' D and people get angry and emotional.
Personally, it breaks my heart to read about, however, I know that you push through it and come out the other side.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:02 PM
@Coach / @Greek
Do you two like sit across a big desk from each other and just peck away at the keyboards? It's always so funny to see you replying to each other's posts.
Do you two like sit across a big desk from each other and just peck away at the keyboards?
It's always so funny to see you replying to each other's posts.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:09 PM
Nope. I'm at my office and he's at his - across town from each other. Neither one of us really have time for this ... but apparently we can't help ourselves! Haha! But like I wrote to AlexEN yesterday ~~~ there is no point in having gone through everything we did if we can't share what we learned and let it be a blessing going forward.
Cheers ~~~
Cheers ~~~
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:11 PM
@Greek wrote: "Can't wait to see how she processes this."
Easy answer. She called this a.m. to "talk about it" and I suggested e-mail with an agenda was more effective and safe. She asked why I was so hurt, and I explained it -- did she really think I would forgo possible love and happy marriage in the future for this rather small amount of money? Is that who she thinks I am?
She just e-mailed me. I'll quote:
There it is.
Easy answer. She called this a.m. to "talk about it" and I suggested e-mail with an agenda was more effective and safe. She asked why I was so hurt, and I explained it -- did she really think I would forgo possible love and happy marriage in the future for this rather small amount of money? Is that who she thinks I am?
She just e-mailed me. I'll quote:
Quote:
Also, regarding "who you are": Quite honestly, I never believed you would take spousal support from me, let alone for a "lifetime", however that is defined. I am not saying that to belittle you; that was just my honest belief about you. Did I think about the money before I made my decision? Absolutely. Again, not trying to be mean, but that is one reason I stayed as long as I did. ONE reason, not THE reason. (But sometimes honesty is NOT the best policy).
There it is.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:14 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
@Greek wrote: "Can't wait to see how she processes this."
Easy answer. She called this a.m. to "talk about it" and I suggested e-mail with an agenda was more effective and safe. She asked why I was so hurt, and I explained it -- did she really think I would forgo possible love and happy marriage in the future for this rather small amount of money? Is that who she thinks I am?
She just e-mailed me. I'll quote:
There it is.
Easy answer. She called this a.m. to "talk about it" and I suggested e-mail with an agenda was more effective and safe. She asked why I was so hurt, and I explained it -- did she really think I would forgo possible love and happy marriage in the future for this rather small amount of money? Is that who she thinks I am?
She just e-mailed me. I'll quote:
Quote:
Also, regarding "who you are": Quite honestly, I never believed you would take spousal support from me, let alone for a "lifetime", however that is defined. I am not saying that to belittle you; that was just my honest belief about you. Did I think about the money before I made my decision? Absolutely. Again, not trying to be mean, but that is one reason I stayed as long as I did. ONE reason, not THE reason. (But sometimes honesty is NOT the best policy).
There it is.
I've re-read this three times, and I still don't even UNDERSTAND it. WTF is she even SAYING here???
Puppy
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:27 PM
Smiley,.
She's got Queeg's brass balls spinning like a gyroscope! That is totally flipped out sideways...
Ugh.
-A
She's got Queeg's brass balls spinning like a gyroscope! That is totally flipped out sideways...
Ugh.
-A
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:34 PM
No, I think it's crystal clear. Yes, I thought about money. That's why I hung around as long as I did. But at the end of the day I bolted because I didn't think you were scummy enough to actually take it. Boy was I wrong!
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:34 PM
I don't know if this is DBing but I think it is time to refrain from asking her what she thinks of you or why...duh.
AND, I think you should stick to only kid talk and specifics for a while.
No one deserves to be subjected to that.
Maybe Greek or Coach can weigh in on that. I see boundary issues now.
Or, who knows, maybe something constructive can come out of this "dialogue"...aargh.
AND, I think you should stick to only kid talk and specifics for a while.
No one deserves to be subjected to that.
Maybe Greek or Coach can weigh in on that. I see boundary issues now.
Or, who knows, maybe something constructive can come out of this "dialogue"...aargh.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:35 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
No, I think it's crystal clear. Yes, I thought about money. That's why I hung around as long as I did. But at the end of the day I bolted because I didn't think you were scummy enough to actually take it. Boy was I wrong!
Oh. I apparently didn't have my online "Entitled Princess-to-English" translator handy . . .
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:36 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
I don't know if this is DBing but I think it is time to refrain from asking her what she thinks of you or why...duh.
AND, I think you should stick to only kid talk and specifics for a while.
AND, I think you should stick to only kid talk and specifics for a while.
I think this is a very good idea. I know you've handled it better than most, SP, but at some point, there's no sense in having her chip away at you and chip away at you . . .
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:44 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
@
Now mind you, her "plan" -- and the air quotes are deliberate -- was to keep the D secret in her mind while pursuing Signore Schmuckatelli, and I finished my (now 5 months behind schedule) book. [Person, you're mind-reading! No -- that's what she told me.]
Her friends -- including 2 who were in our wedding party (nice) -- would know. A couple co-workers -- both of whom regularly saw me (nice) -- would know. (About the D and Signore Schmuckatelli.) She would know.
Of course, I wouldn't know.
She doesn't get how that hurts, either, incidentally. How the idea that she'd let me be ignorant, thinking I was married, would be hurtful to a person -- let alone this Person.
Now mind you, her "plan" -- and the air quotes are deliberate -- was to keep the D secret in her mind while pursuing Signore Schmuckatelli, and I finished my (now 5 months behind schedule) book. [Person, you're mind-reading! No -- that's what she told me.]
Her friends -- including 2 who were in our wedding party (nice) -- would know. A couple co-workers -- both of whom regularly saw me (nice) -- would know. (About the D and Signore Schmuckatelli.) She would know.
Of course, I wouldn't know.
She doesn't get how that hurts, either, incidentally. How the idea that she'd let me be ignorant, thinking I was married, would be hurtful to a person -- let alone this Person.
Absolutely rotten behavior!
Unfortunately I know at sitch going on in real world where a WAS is in a fling and the LBS doesn't know yet. Presumably it's to protect the LBS. It makes me angry at this WAS and feeling bad for the LBS.
I sure don't want to be that guy but deep down I accept the possibility is always there that something like this could happen to me. I can't burn the thought energy to go there right now.
I feel it's really chicken sh of the WAS not to face up and be honest about what's going on in their own life. It's fear of disapproval, fear of defending themselves, fear of their own guilt.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:48 PM
My humble opinion is...that's what you hired lawyers for. Let them do that dirty work - money esp. It never ends well otherwise.
Whenever I brought up that kind of thing with Coach, he would tell me that he wouldn't discuss legal things with me. Period. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. But he was right.
Whenever I brought up that kind of thing with Coach, he would tell me that he wouldn't discuss legal things with me. Period. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. But he was right.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:58 PM
SP - Did I read it correctly that you have not spoken to an attorney before now? Why not?
You really need to go and hire one, and decide exactly what you ARE going to ask her for in a settlement, so that there will be no more cat-n-mouse "how could you do that to me" re: spousal support or a settlement. At 6 months into this, I hope you are ready and prepared to do this finally, it has gone on too long and is contributing to the problem. You seem to be too happy to stall, right along with her. So please stop that tendancy and decide - with an attorney - what you ARE going to ask for.
DQ
You really need to go and hire one, and decide exactly what you ARE going to ask her for in a settlement, so that there will be no more cat-n-mouse "how could you do that to me" re: spousal support or a settlement. At 6 months into this, I hope you are ready and prepared to do this finally, it has gone on too long and is contributing to the problem. You seem to be too happy to stall, right along with her. So please stop that tendancy and decide - with an attorney - what you ARE going to ask for.
DQ
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 05:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
I don't know if this is DBing but I think it is time to refrain from asking her what she thinks of you or why...duh.
AND, I think you should stick to only kid talk and specifics for a while.
AND, I think you should stick to only kid talk and specifics for a while.
I think this is a very good idea. I know you've handled it better than most, SP, but at some point, there's no sense in having her chip away at you and chip away at you . . .
Leave all the money talks from now on up to the lawyers. Until you go thru this you can't imagine the emotions the legal side triggers. It felt like someone going thru your closet, medicine cabinet, laundry, fridge, kitchen, bedroom, bank accounts, confessional and medical records. BTW did I mention you get to pay thru the nose for it?
SP, money talks will be a place that will be ripe for taking the bait. Boundaries will keep you from doing something you might wish you could get a mulligan on but can't.
You are going to be tested with this seperation and the legal stress. It will be draining on all your being. Use your help when you need it. You can handle it.
Strength and Honor
Coach
Cheers
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 06:12 PM
@DQ -- didn't go to a lawyer because we'd agreed up front to mediate and the only real bone of contention -- setting aside our moral positions on divorcing and whatnot -- is the support thing. There's no controversy over child support and custody and etc. It's just alimony.
And we both believed we could struggle through that and reach some agreement. I think what's going to happen now is that we'll draw up agreements on everything we agree on and just let the L's handle the Benjamins -- so we'll medi-liti-gate. Which was something the Mojo Family Law Guy said yesterday (a) isn't uncommon and (b) is pretty efficient -- you wind up like a half-hour in court because the judge accepts all the pre-existing agreements and just renders a verdict on the sticking point.
@Coach -- you're right. The odd thing is that in the other window we're actually having a productive dialog right now, though not about the $$.
And we both believed we could struggle through that and reach some agreement. I think what's going to happen now is that we'll draw up agreements on everything we agree on and just let the L's handle the Benjamins -- so we'll medi-liti-gate. Which was something the Mojo Family Law Guy said yesterday (a) isn't uncommon and (b) is pretty efficient -- you wind up like a half-hour in court because the judge accepts all the pre-existing agreements and just renders a verdict on the sticking point.
@Coach -- you're right. The odd thing is that in the other window we're actually having a productive dialog right now, though not about the $$.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 06:16 PM
Gotcha.
Is there mediation session set up? Have you chosen the liti-mediator? From my POV, she isn't going to stop being a whack case about that one thing until it is out there on the table and discussed. She is CLEARLY very agitated about the money issue and it would be best to stop shying around the issue for both of you.
I know you got other sad things on your plate, but trust me, the longer you don't sit down to discuss this, the worse her mind is going to be on it.
Sooner the better.
(and that still doesn't mean there isn't a possible 11th hour change of heart - as you know from Greek and Coach)
DQ
Is there mediation session set up? Have you chosen the liti-mediator? From my POV, she isn't going to stop being a whack case about that one thing until it is out there on the table and discussed. She is CLEARLY very agitated about the money issue and it would be best to stop shying around the issue for both of you.
I know you got other sad things on your plate, but trust me, the longer you don't sit down to discuss this, the worse her mind is going to be on it.
Sooner the better.
(and that still doesn't mean there isn't a possible 11th hour change of heart - as you know from Greek and Coach)
DQ
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 06:30 PM
No, the session hasn't been set up yet. Right now we're just trying to get her out of the house. DESPERATELY trying to get her out of the house. Just got to get through that right now.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 06:40 PM
We are sending lots, pounds, TONS of good thoughts and prayers your way, SP. Feel heavy for ya, friend.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 07:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Greek
My humble opinion is...that's what you hired lawyers for. Let them do that dirty work - money esp. It never ends well otherwise.
Whenever I brought up that kind of thing with Coach, he would tell me that he wouldn't discuss legal things with me. Period. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. But he was right.
Whenever I brought up that kind of thing with Coach, he would tell me that he wouldn't discuss legal things with me. Period. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. But he was right.
2nd that. Two of the best pieces of advice I got were:
1) Don't discuss the R as long as there's a third person involved; and
2) Don't discuss money/legal stuff -- let the atty's do that.
Which really left us NOTHING to talk about, which was fine by me back then! lol
Puppy
Re: Mojo. The life force. The essence. - 06/25/09 09:29 PM
Originally Posted By: thinker
... because I am nicer, and do more, and am a better dad ... she is unhappier ... logically
Because. You. Weren't. Supposed. To. Do. That.
Screws up the scenario.
Throw in a heaping dose of "Too little too late" and, well, there ya go.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 09:52 PM
The WAS doesn't think everything through. They just want out and hope for the best. And boy when we mess up their plans to make it all cut and dried- things start to fly.
I suggest a lot less contact for just a bit. It is sometimes interesting to let them stew.
I suggest a lot less contact for just a bit. It is sometimes interesting to let them stew.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 10:08 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
To have that human connection, even for a half-hour (yeah, right, keep dreaming, old boy! ), sure sounds good right about now, fleeting, transitory, and even meaningless though it might be. To just be wanted, regardless of the reason why, by another adult, for one day, instead of constantly picking at the scab of our rejection by Who We Thought Was The One. 'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished, said the Dane.
), sure sounds good right about now, fleeting, transitory, and even meaningless though it might be. To just be wanted, regardless of the reason why, by another adult, for one day, instead of constantly picking at the scab of our rejection by Who We Thought Was The One. 'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished, said the Dane. SP - I follow along quite closely, but don't have a ton of input... But, this really piqued my interest! LOL Guess it's back... to... the.... drawer....!!! UGH!
Re: And So It Comes - 06/25/09 10:59 PM
SP sez: "To just be wanted, regardless of the reason why, by another adult, for one day, instead of constantly picking at the scab of our rejection by Who We Thought Was The One."
I so get you. I felt exactly that way for years in my SSM. Perhaps your W felt that way too.
And the circle is formed.
Tragic. And unnecessary, really. She should have forced herself awake and aware, and screamed from the mountaintops before letting her subconscious do all that work on detaching from you.
I feel for all of you.
Lucky
I so get you. I felt exactly that way for years in my SSM. Perhaps your W felt that way too.
And the circle is formed.
Tragic. And unnecessary, really. She should have forced herself awake and aware, and screamed from the mountaintops before letting her subconscious do all that work on detaching from you.
I feel for all of you.
Lucky
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 01:52 AM
Orangedog feels the same way.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 02:05 AM
Although mrs orandgedog was there too in the early days when things weren't as good as they should have been and she could have tried harder too. Od is tired of taking all the blame for this one alone as mrs od has suggested.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 02:11 AM
Good observation Luckky. Isn't that the textbook WAS though. Just like my WAW. Just like almost every WAS I read about here.
Gave up trying to understand WAS' thought process. Either cannot make it make sense or there simply is no thought process, just emotion. Very dangerous when one makes life altering decisions based on emotion.
Gave up trying to understand WAS' thought process. Either cannot make it make sense or there simply is no thought process, just emotion. Very dangerous when one makes life altering decisions based on emotion.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 04:47 AM
Orangedog: I absolutely LOVE when you talk in third person. It makes me chuckle.
Lucky
Lucky
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 06:34 AM
Orangedog says thanks Lucky.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 07:29 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
No, I think it's crystal clear. Yes, I thought about money. That's why I hung around as long as I did. But at the end of the day I bolted because I didn't think you were scummy enough to actually take it. Boy was I wrong!
Quite common for the WAW to think in $ terms in planning their exit.
Originally Posted By: Coach
SP, The times I lost my cool the most was talking about the legal side of this because it revolved around how to split time with the kids and money. Two very emotional issues. Nothing wrong with saying how you feel and what you see as the consequences of this for all parties.
I found out later it scared the Greek as well. At the time I didn't really pick up on that vibe but she admitted that it helped her think thru her choices.
I found out later it scared the Greek as well. At the time I didn't really pick up on that vibe but she admitted that it helped her think thru her choices.
Originally Posted By: Greek
Coach played hardball with me legally ~~~ it INFURIATED me, and scared me half to death. Did I think about it ahead of time ~~~ yes, sir. But reality bites.
Curious if he played attack or defense (i.e., who was the bigger wage earner?).
Originally Posted By: Greek
You have no obligation to help her feel better about the sh!t that is now hitting the fan. It is the REALITY of a move SHE made. Do not protect her from it and it sounds like you get that.
Absolutely! In fact that's where I would loose my cool when the WAW has this air of "entitlememt" - there's no obligation to validate these feelings.
Originally Posted By: SP
Pffffffffffffffw. Man, it was bad. And I don't even care. I'm glad I fought back. I'm glad I said what I said. I'm sort of tired of being noble and sh*t. I want to be an a**hole for a while.
Yeah, be a Bad A&% MF once in a while!
That was some barn burner. At any rate you are sitting pretty on the legal front. The WAW is the one hurting more in your case. I think you got it right the court really does not want to get involved unless something is brought in front of them and when this happens in the 10 minutes or so the judges have they tend to draw a line down the middle regardless of who's walking away and why. You can ask for want's called "temporary relief" - spousal and child support at the going rate starting from the day she moves out of the house. Anything else can be negotiated later.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 12:10 PM
Originally Posted By: LuckyGirl
Orangedog: I absolutely LOVE when you talk in third person. It makes me chuckle.
Lucky
Lucky
Puppy likes this as well.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 02:43 PM
Smiley's Person isn't DB'ing anymore.
Not now, anyway. Maybe not ever again.
Yesterday was rough on me, really rough. I was in that nasty snotty weepy icky place and had to work hard to get it together before WAW returned from work. S had a session with a counselor, and the story the counselor told me after the seesion was pretty much what you'd expect. He doesn't want it, etc.
Now The Boy'd asked me why I was divorcing his mother earlier that day, and I did exactly what I told WAW I would do -- I told the truth. I said that only 1 person has to want to get a divorce, and his mother feels that she'll be happier being his mom but not my wife, etc. -- exactly the stuff I told WAW I would say. [Hold that one in high RAM, if you will.] Now -- and this is clearly My Bad -- I didn't tell WAW he and I had had this convo, but to be perfectly honest I was such a wreck yesterday that by the time I'd gotten myself together near the end of the afternoon I'd just plain forgot about it.
D was weepy all day. And I had to sort of pack up some of WAW's stuff from the "family" room (he said, sardonically). So it was rough.
And of course there were a half-dozen $$$$ emails and texts from WAW. Finally she agreed to just set the $$$$ question aside until the end of July -- she's got a vacation coming up, the kids and I do, this weekend sucks, etc. Fine. We'll set the $$$$ question aside. She'll just do the bills for July the way she's been, we'll start all the support crap in August -- is that okay with me? Yes, sure, it's fine; let's just get through tomorrow. [Now please keep that bit about August in mind, dear friends, for later.]
Okay, so I'm lying on the floor with my dog, breathing, repeating some mantras and affirmations, get up, and get back to business.
I bought the kids and me a new home theater system -- our first -- surround sound, flat panel, blueray thing, Wii, the whole 9 yards. So I'm installing. To do this, I have to move the old teevee and cabinet and TiVo and whatnot out to the front room, where WAW's movers can take them away. So in the process I'm unloading said cabinet and set WAW's DVDs aside (we have very different taste in the cinematic arts - she, for example, doesn't think "Caddyshack" is funny).
And I set those DVDs with the rest of "her" AV equipment. [Save that sentence for later as well, please.]
In the "family" room and adjacent kitchen there are 3 things that are very very very very important to WAW, as they were her (deceased) mother's. 2 wall-hangings and a teapot. So I gently take the wall-hangings off the wall -- I am, after, all, spackling and repainting this coming week -- and set them and the teapot in the front room where WAW has been staging all of her things. I put the hanging hardware in zip-lock bags, labeled, etc. [And please keep this one handy also.]
So the "day" part of the day ends. I take the boy-child to see the counselor. WAW texts -- can she join us for dinner? Sure, of course; so we meet at the local, and she has both kids insisting on sitting to either side of her, and they are pressed right up against her. Okay, you don't need a Ph.D., right?
She and I say almost nothing.
That evening, the boy-child and I run over to Worst Buy -- not my usual stopping-off point, but near to the local -- for some HDMI cables -- I hadn't realized I needed as many as I did. We return, WAW is in the midst of bath-and-story-time with D, then it's S's turn.
By this time I'd all done in. SP goes to bed really early because he gets up at 0300 to write -- or to "used-to" write, now to self-help (and someone please start with the 2x4s to get back to my book -- the one I was working on on D-Day. PLEASE.).
Comes The Night.
An hour later, there is a huge racket. Banging banging banging banging. WAW is acting out. I don't go check -- it's her thing, whatever.
Two hours later -- BAM! -- in she comes to the guest room, flipping on the lights, and we're off to the races. Again.
40 minutes of abuse. Who the f*ck do I think I am telling S that this is her idea? [Recall Item 1, please.]
I'm a mass of contradictions! How can I keep up this stupid f*cking game of being nice to her and offering to help her when really I'm just out for all of her money!?! I refuse to give her a figure! I'm going for the jugular! I'm going to soak her for life! She ought to quit her job tomorrow! Then let me figure it out! She's got other income! That'll show me! Let me explain to the children why they're starving!
[Remember that second thing I asked you to set aside for later? Take it out again and have a look, please.]
Why did I tell S this was all her fault? Didn't I think that was something she deserved to know? Yes, that's right. Though I didn't say it was WAW's "fault," it's clearly the case that I should have remembered to let her know about the convo. No argument from me.
And what am I trying to "tell her" by putting her DVDs by the door! What is that little stunt supposed to mean? I'm so f*cking petty I can't even stand to have her movies around? God almighty why did she wait so long to get rid of my a**? [And that's item 3, if you please.]
How dare I take her stuff off the wall and just throw it anywhere? [The last recall item, ladies and gentlemen.]
I'm a piece of sh*t! The last time she checked this was half her house! She'll put it on the market tomorrow! Kick my a** to the curb! I can explain to the kids why they're starving and homeless! Why don't I take that job I was offered in Afghanistan and get killed? She'll take 100% custody! I'm the biggest mistake she ever made in her life! I'm no class! I have no class! Like my white trash family! Just a mass of f*cking contradictions and inconsistencies!
Hey? Where are you in all this, SP? I'm lying on the guest bed, wearing naught but a thin pair of pyjama bottoms and a sheet, being very quiet. Looking her in the eyes.
Not yelling. Not reacting. Getting my dander up a couple times, getting close, but bringing it back down. Responding, when a response is needed, in a level, quiet tone of voice. Validating the thing she's saying for the umpteenth time -- I didn't support her, I abandoned her by sleeping in my office, etc. -- not criticizing her feelings. I understand she's under stress. I understand this is a tough thing to do, packing herself away.
(I get my bed linens at the same place @Coach gets his spew raincoat.)
And she sits on the floor. And is quiet. And starts asking me to explain (again) my seemingly contradictory feelings. How can I still purport to have feelings for her and the M while simultaneously saying I'm prepared for her to go and have accepted the divorce?
Okay, so I say the things we're all coached (pun intended) to say. I'm working on me. In a weird way this has been a good experience for me because it's forced me to chase the snakes out of my brain. Etc. Etc. All level. All quiet. All honest.
And the Working On Me helps me see where I went wrong, what I wasn't seeing, how I wasn't hearing, and also just so happens to lead me to believe that, given Work and Honesty and Will, this M doesn't have to be over.
How can I say such things with her the way she is, asks she? I hear you, I know you're stressed, I'm keeping an open mind.
How can I be compassionate to her at this time? Look at what she's done to me. Look at what she's done to the children. Because that's How I Roll now. This is the path I've chosen to walk for my remaining 40-odd years above ground. Compassion is easy when it's easy, when it doesn't cost you. It matters most when there's an emotional price to be paid. Which is why I'm trying so hard to Live My Way.
But then today [yesterday's "today"] I was so f*cked up, so sad, and I said I didn't have confidence in my ability to sustain compassion and friendship and whatnot. See? Mass of contradictions. Yes, I did say that. But there's no contradiction there. I'm struggling. Just because I've seemed "all good" for the past 6 or 8 weeks doesn't mean I don't care, doesn't mean I like this, doesn't mean I'm not hurting inside. And today that got the better of me. So I'm going to have to hunt those snakes down and chase them out of my brain. It's a process. It's a Path. I never said I was Perfect - just Trying.
And how can I say those flirting things? How can I say I'd be happy to have sex with her? How come she doesn't repulse me? Because it's the truth. Because I've been attracted to you for 22 years. Because I want you. Because you're looking hot these days, and I'd like to see what that looks like naked. {An actual, if brief, laugh is returned.} But more than that. In spite of everything -- hell, maybe because of everything -- I feel a physical craving for you. Right now, this moment, I'd like nothing more than to have you lying on this bed -- on top of the sheet, thank you very much, let's not get crazy {another actual, though brief, laugh} -- and just put my arms around you. And have you lie still and quiet until you felt better.
"I'll never feel better," says she.
So there we are, friends. A moment of light.
And -- BAM! -- she starts on the money again. Like that. Light switch.
So I tell her "Fine. What do you want to hear? That I don't want spousal support for life? Fine. I don't want spousal support for life. Now get the f*ck out."
And she gets this shocked look on her face -- no, honest to the gods, friends, no sh*t! -- this shocked look on her face and says -- oh, how I wish I was sh*tting you but I'm not -- "How dare you speak to me that way?"
Okay. Now I'm done. This has been her gift to me. Maybe it was her Strategic Master Plan all along, who knows?
Now. I. Am. Done.
"Fine, I'll get the f*ck out." And I climb out of the bed -- after a quick visual check, mind you, to make sure my Manly Assurance is not obviously on display there in my pyjama bottoms, because despite all this nonsense I'm sorta turned on by the whole thing
-- and I march upstairs and write a one-page, 3-sentence memorandum.
I am not going for the jugular. I do not expect you to support me for the rest of my natural life. I write this of my own free will under no duress or influence.
And I print, and sign, and go into the Master Bed (knocking on the door because, you know, I have no class and everything). "Here. You got what you wanted. As far as I can see, this resolves everything. Apart from issues concerning the kids, I don't see that we have a godd*m thing to talk about. Ever again. So goodbye. And good luck to you."
And I go back downstairs.
Now the dog -- and she is a Senior Citizen dog -- is pretty shaken up, because you remember all that banging I was telling you about earlier? It was over in the part of the "family" room where she has her bed.
So I pet her a bit and let her out for a refreshing pee, and when she comes back in I give her a couple treats and then, Curiosity Killing The Cat, I turn the light on to figure out what that banging was all about.
WAW had taken my nylon mallet -- the one that I used to use when I did leatherwork in high school and just keep for soft hammering jobs, but which she clearly just understood to be a "hammer" -- and smashed the cases on all her DVDs, on the floor of the "family" room, and tried to bang the hardware for her mother's wall-hangings back into place, knocking out about 12 square inches of drywall in several places.
Goodbye, stranger. It's been nice.
Hope you find your Paradise.
Tried to see your point of view.
Hope your dreams will all come true.
Goodbye, Mary; goodbye, Jane.
Will we ever meet again.
Feel now sorrow, feel no shame.
Come tomorrow, feel no pain.
Not now, anyway. Maybe not ever again.
Yesterday was rough on me, really rough. I was in that nasty snotty weepy icky place and had to work hard to get it together before WAW returned from work. S had a session with a counselor, and the story the counselor told me after the seesion was pretty much what you'd expect. He doesn't want it, etc.
Now The Boy'd asked me why I was divorcing his mother earlier that day, and I did exactly what I told WAW I would do -- I told the truth. I said that only 1 person has to want to get a divorce, and his mother feels that she'll be happier being his mom but not my wife, etc. -- exactly the stuff I told WAW I would say. [Hold that one in high RAM, if you will.] Now -- and this is clearly My Bad -- I didn't tell WAW he and I had had this convo, but to be perfectly honest I was such a wreck yesterday that by the time I'd gotten myself together near the end of the afternoon I'd just plain forgot about it.
D was weepy all day. And I had to sort of pack up some of WAW's stuff from the "family" room (he said, sardonically). So it was rough.
And of course there were a half-dozen $$$$ emails and texts from WAW. Finally she agreed to just set the $$$$ question aside until the end of July -- she's got a vacation coming up, the kids and I do, this weekend sucks, etc. Fine. We'll set the $$$$ question aside. She'll just do the bills for July the way she's been, we'll start all the support crap in August -- is that okay with me? Yes, sure, it's fine; let's just get through tomorrow. [Now please keep that bit about August in mind, dear friends, for later.]
Okay, so I'm lying on the floor with my dog, breathing, repeating some mantras and affirmations, get up, and get back to business.
I bought the kids and me a new home theater system -- our first -- surround sound, flat panel, blueray thing, Wii, the whole 9 yards. So I'm installing. To do this, I have to move the old teevee and cabinet and TiVo and whatnot out to the front room, where WAW's movers can take them away. So in the process I'm unloading said cabinet and set WAW's DVDs aside (we have very different taste in the cinematic arts - she, for example, doesn't think "Caddyshack" is funny).
And I set those DVDs with the rest of "her" AV equipment. [Save that sentence for later as well, please.]
In the "family" room and adjacent kitchen there are 3 things that are very very very very important to WAW, as they were her (deceased) mother's. 2 wall-hangings and a teapot. So I gently take the wall-hangings off the wall -- I am, after, all, spackling and repainting this coming week -- and set them and the teapot in the front room where WAW has been staging all of her things. I put the hanging hardware in zip-lock bags, labeled, etc. [And please keep this one handy also.]
So the "day" part of the day ends. I take the boy-child to see the counselor. WAW texts -- can she join us for dinner? Sure, of course; so we meet at the local, and she has both kids insisting on sitting to either side of her, and they are pressed right up against her. Okay, you don't need a Ph.D., right?
She and I say almost nothing.
That evening, the boy-child and I run over to Worst Buy -- not my usual stopping-off point, but near to the local -- for some HDMI cables -- I hadn't realized I needed as many as I did. We return, WAW is in the midst of bath-and-story-time with D, then it's S's turn.
By this time I'd all done in. SP goes to bed really early because he gets up at 0300 to write -- or to "used-to" write, now to self-help (and someone please start with the 2x4s to get back to my book -- the one I was working on on D-Day. PLEASE.).
Comes The Night.
An hour later, there is a huge racket. Banging banging banging banging. WAW is acting out. I don't go check -- it's her thing, whatever.
Two hours later -- BAM! -- in she comes to the guest room, flipping on the lights, and we're off to the races. Again.
40 minutes of abuse. Who the f*ck do I think I am telling S that this is her idea? [Recall Item 1, please.]
I'm a mass of contradictions! How can I keep up this stupid f*cking game of being nice to her and offering to help her when really I'm just out for all of her money!?! I refuse to give her a figure! I'm going for the jugular! I'm going to soak her for life! She ought to quit her job tomorrow! Then let me figure it out! She's got other income! That'll show me! Let me explain to the children why they're starving!
[Remember that second thing I asked you to set aside for later? Take it out again and have a look, please.]
Why did I tell S this was all her fault? Didn't I think that was something she deserved to know? Yes, that's right. Though I didn't say it was WAW's "fault," it's clearly the case that I should have remembered to let her know about the convo. No argument from me.
And what am I trying to "tell her" by putting her DVDs by the door! What is that little stunt supposed to mean? I'm so f*cking petty I can't even stand to have her movies around? God almighty why did she wait so long to get rid of my a**? [And that's item 3, if you please.]
How dare I take her stuff off the wall and just throw it anywhere? [The last recall item, ladies and gentlemen.]
I'm a piece of sh*t! The last time she checked this was half her house! She'll put it on the market tomorrow! Kick my a** to the curb! I can explain to the kids why they're starving and homeless! Why don't I take that job I was offered in Afghanistan and get killed? She'll take 100% custody! I'm the biggest mistake she ever made in her life! I'm no class! I have no class! Like my white trash family! Just a mass of f*cking contradictions and inconsistencies!
Hey? Where are you in all this, SP? I'm lying on the guest bed, wearing naught but a thin pair of pyjama bottoms and a sheet, being very quiet. Looking her in the eyes.
Not yelling. Not reacting. Getting my dander up a couple times, getting close, but bringing it back down. Responding, when a response is needed, in a level, quiet tone of voice. Validating the thing she's saying for the umpteenth time -- I didn't support her, I abandoned her by sleeping in my office, etc. -- not criticizing her feelings. I understand she's under stress. I understand this is a tough thing to do, packing herself away.
(I get my bed linens at the same place @Coach gets his spew raincoat.)
And she sits on the floor. And is quiet. And starts asking me to explain (again) my seemingly contradictory feelings. How can I still purport to have feelings for her and the M while simultaneously saying I'm prepared for her to go and have accepted the divorce?
Okay, so I say the things we're all coached (pun intended) to say. I'm working on me. In a weird way this has been a good experience for me because it's forced me to chase the snakes out of my brain. Etc. Etc. All level. All quiet. All honest.
And the Working On Me helps me see where I went wrong, what I wasn't seeing, how I wasn't hearing, and also just so happens to lead me to believe that, given Work and Honesty and Will, this M doesn't have to be over.
How can I say such things with her the way she is, asks she? I hear you, I know you're stressed, I'm keeping an open mind.
How can I be compassionate to her at this time? Look at what she's done to me. Look at what she's done to the children. Because that's How I Roll now. This is the path I've chosen to walk for my remaining 40-odd years above ground. Compassion is easy when it's easy, when it doesn't cost you. It matters most when there's an emotional price to be paid. Which is why I'm trying so hard to Live My Way.
But then today [yesterday's "today"] I was so f*cked up, so sad, and I said I didn't have confidence in my ability to sustain compassion and friendship and whatnot. See? Mass of contradictions. Yes, I did say that. But there's no contradiction there. I'm struggling. Just because I've seemed "all good" for the past 6 or 8 weeks doesn't mean I don't care, doesn't mean I like this, doesn't mean I'm not hurting inside. And today that got the better of me. So I'm going to have to hunt those snakes down and chase them out of my brain. It's a process. It's a Path. I never said I was Perfect - just Trying.
And how can I say those flirting things? How can I say I'd be happy to have sex with her? How come she doesn't repulse me? Because it's the truth. Because I've been attracted to you for 22 years. Because I want you. Because you're looking hot these days, and I'd like to see what that looks like naked. {An actual, if brief, laugh is returned.} But more than that. In spite of everything -- hell, maybe because of everything -- I feel a physical craving for you. Right now, this moment, I'd like nothing more than to have you lying on this bed -- on top of the sheet, thank you very much, let's not get crazy {another actual, though brief, laugh} -- and just put my arms around you. And have you lie still and quiet until you felt better.
"I'll never feel better," says she.
So there we are, friends. A moment of light.
And -- BAM! -- she starts on the money again. Like that. Light switch.
So I tell her "Fine. What do you want to hear? That I don't want spousal support for life? Fine. I don't want spousal support for life. Now get the f*ck out."
And she gets this shocked look on her face -- no, honest to the gods, friends, no sh*t! -- this shocked look on her face and says -- oh, how I wish I was sh*tting you but I'm not -- "How dare you speak to me that way?"
Okay. Now I'm done. This has been her gift to me. Maybe it was her Strategic Master Plan all along, who knows?
Now. I. Am. Done.
"Fine, I'll get the f*ck out." And I climb out of the bed -- after a quick visual check, mind you, to make sure my Manly Assurance is not obviously on display there in my pyjama bottoms, because despite all this nonsense I'm sorta turned on by the whole thing
-- and I march upstairs and write a one-page, 3-sentence memorandum.I am not going for the jugular. I do not expect you to support me for the rest of my natural life. I write this of my own free will under no duress or influence.
And I print, and sign, and go into the Master Bed (knocking on the door because, you know, I have no class and everything). "Here. You got what you wanted. As far as I can see, this resolves everything. Apart from issues concerning the kids, I don't see that we have a godd*m thing to talk about. Ever again. So goodbye. And good luck to you."
And I go back downstairs.
Now the dog -- and she is a Senior Citizen dog -- is pretty shaken up, because you remember all that banging I was telling you about earlier? It was over in the part of the "family" room where she has her bed.
So I pet her a bit and let her out for a refreshing pee, and when she comes back in I give her a couple treats and then, Curiosity Killing The Cat, I turn the light on to figure out what that banging was all about.
WAW had taken my nylon mallet -- the one that I used to use when I did leatherwork in high school and just keep for soft hammering jobs, but which she clearly just understood to be a "hammer" -- and smashed the cases on all her DVDs, on the floor of the "family" room, and tried to bang the hardware for her mother's wall-hangings back into place, knocking out about 12 square inches of drywall in several places.
Goodbye, stranger. It's been nice.
Hope you find your Paradise.
Tried to see your point of view.
Hope your dreams will all come true.
Goodbye, Mary; goodbye, Jane.
Will we ever meet again.
Feel now sorrow, feel no shame.
Come tomorrow, feel no pain.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 02:59 PM
Smileys, Just practice some self care today and don't beat yourself up. Limit contact unless it's about the kids. I am serious about taking care of yourself today you have a lot to deal with this weekend and you need some energy. Remember in survival school they taught to conserve sweat not water. You can handle it.
Strength and Honor
Coach
Strength and Honor
Coach
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 03:02 PM
Smiley - here's your 2x4...get your damn book out and start writing again NOW. Your mental health must get a break from her madness. I am misty reading your horrid story about your horrid evening and OMG, wow, its hell....why? From where? Who is she? I'm afraid for your safety and hers...please please get the movers over here early....
But anyway....nuff of that...get yer damn manuscript out NOW because its going to save your life by giving you something else to think about ... maybe you can divert your mind from your sadness enough to get through the next couple of weeks.
BOOK. NOW. WRITE.
No more DBing today....
xoxo,
DQ
But anyway....nuff of that...get yer damn manuscript out NOW because its going to save your life by giving you something else to think about ... maybe you can divert your mind from your sadness enough to get through the next couple of weeks.
BOOK. NOW. WRITE.
No more DBing today....
xoxo,
DQ
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 03:04 PM
SP - Wow.
Take care of yourself and your kids.
I'm sure you (and we all) saw some of this coming (drywall, huh?).
She is struggling with her decisions. She is struggling with her path. She is struggling with guilt. Sadly, she can't figure out how to make herself happy.
Wonder what will go on at her new house if this type of backlash happens in your family home, with kids present (but in bed), and you there with the possibility of intervening...?
It's her journey right now.
We're with ya, friend. DB'ing or not.
Take care of yourself and your kids.
I'm sure you (and we all) saw some of this coming (drywall, huh?).
She is struggling with her decisions. She is struggling with her path. She is struggling with guilt. Sadly, she can't figure out how to make herself happy.
Wonder what will go on at her new house if this type of backlash happens in your family home, with kids present (but in bed), and you there with the possibility of intervening...?
It's her journey right now.
We're with ya, friend. DB'ing or not.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 03:05 PM
She does not know what she wants.
She is scared sh!tless.
Take care of yourSELF. Take CARE of yourself.
Do not rescue her from a bit of this. Rescue the kids. Rescue yourself. Rescue the dog. But let Mrs. SP hit her wall.
Oh, I'm so sorry for you, truly. But I also have confidence in SP.
She is scared sh!tless.
Take care of yourSELF. Take CARE of yourself.
Do not rescue her from a bit of this. Rescue the kids. Rescue yourself. Rescue the dog. But let Mrs. SP hit her wall.
Oh, I'm so sorry for you, truly. But I also have confidence in SP.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 03:38 PM
I'm sorry, SP.
And I feel for you. Truly.
And I'm damn proud of you.
And of your...your mastery of all that DBing is.
And I feel for you. Truly.
And I'm damn proud of you.
And of your...your mastery of all that DBing is.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 04:05 PM
Write that book. Start now. Get her out of the house and out of your head. She is one of the snakes at this point.
Wish I could help more directly. I am so sorry you are going through this.
Wish I could help more directly. I am so sorry you are going through this.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 04:11 PM
Sorry this is so ugly. You are in the thick of it, survival mode. You will make it through.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 04:13 PM
So when does she actually move out?
No need to relieve her cogitive dissonance whether you're DB'ing or not. Try to tune her out for a while.
No need to relieve her cogitive dissonance whether you're DB'ing or not. Try to tune her out for a while.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 04:17 PM
Sorry for the yuck, SP.
Her torment is satisfying on some level. It would be abnormal if things didn't come to a big, messy head.
Ugh. Makes me want to go buy a pack of cigarettes.
Lucky
Her torment is satisfying on some level. It would be abnormal if things didn't come to a big, messy head.
Ugh. Makes me want to go buy a pack of cigarettes.
Lucky
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 05:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Greek
Do not rescue her from a bit of this. Rescue the kids. Rescue
I think maybe because a lot of LITTLE "rescues" happened along the way, maybe she bottled all this up inside until the end? Not that this weekend wouldn't have been hell anyway, but I do think a lot of that "steam" -- instead of being dissipated by some typical amounts of healthy fighting along the way, may have just all built up to a boil here at the end.
Or maybe she's just not a well woman. I mean, doesn't like Caddyshack??? C'mon . . .
Praying for you SP,
Puppy
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 05:04 PM
Lucky - sitting here finishing a meal w/ my kids before we go to the beach. Thought the same thing: I need a pack of smokes. And I haven't had a puffer since 88 or so!
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 05:06 PM
She's a train wreck right now as everything is coming undone in her life and nothing makes sense.
Take care of yourself and just get through it. More sleep. More time with the dog. More time with the kids.
I really feel bad for you right now.
Take care of yourself and just get through it. More sleep. More time with the dog. More time with the kids.
I really feel bad for you right now.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 05:08 PM
SP,
So sorry that you are going through this.
Neither you, nor the kids, deserve this reality.
It $ucks...
-AlexEN
So sorry that you are going through this.
Neither you, nor the kids, deserve this reality.
It $ucks...
-AlexEN
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 05:10 PM
SP,
She smashed HER DVDs?
-A
She smashed HER DVDs?
-A
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 05:35 PM
This is the kind of psychotic behavior that scares me when I think if my wife and I don't make it. Because I could EASILY see her "losing it" as well, because she just DOESN'T think things thru at all, until they're right upon her.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 05:39 PM
So.....she really thinks that if no one tells the kids anything, they will not figure out who the bad guy is here? Buy that woman a mirror.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 06:41 PM
Hey Smile Guy..
Lunch with your kids.. going to the beach.. the wind and the waves a natural salve for the soul.
One day at a time.
One step at a time.
One minute at a time.
And just because you can be a contrary man at times.. whatever you do.. DON'T work on the book.. nope nope nope. Nuh huhhhh.. mmmm.mmm.mmmm..
My heart, hugs and warm fuzzies as needed go out to you and your family.
*hugs*
Lunch with your kids.. going to the beach.. the wind and the waves a natural salve for the soul.
One day at a time.
One step at a time.
One minute at a time.
And just because you can be a contrary man at times.. whatever you do.. DON'T work on the book.. nope nope nope. Nuh huhhhh.. mmmm.mmm.mmmm..
My heart, hugs and warm fuzzies as needed go out to you and your family.
*hugs*
Re: And So It Comes - 06/26/09 06:45 PM
Smiley,
Been following. Lots of thoughtful posts from @coach, @greek, @lucky girl, etc., won't presume that what I have to offer is anything more than what has been so eloquently said.
Can tell you this. During this separation/pre D, whatever process, the worst times between H. and I have been when we actually got to the point of moving out of our house and the $ issues. It’s more difficult for them to compartmentalize when those things start happening for real. And it puts us in the position of having to set boundaries and preserve ourselves.
Which they take as an offensive move.
While I think its an unavoidable scenario, it did give me some comfort, dignity and some semblance of control to continue to navigate this part of the process in a way that I could feel good about,or to borrow your phraseology, “how I roll”. I couldn’t always do it. There were times when I felt so disrespected and mistreated that I wanted to not only defend myself but to push forward with some sort of offensive, if only to shut him down and put a stop to the madness. I would fight back, lash out, and remember being horrified at times, saying to myself and those around me “I am done, so done”.
I have participated in the lights thrown on wake up call, the middle of the night trading of F’-yous, the leave-get away from me right now or I wills, both of us showing our ugliest. It’s terrible, terrible to be pushed beyond reason, beyond decency, by the person you love. I am haunted by the reality of what we had inside us, that we could be that way to eachother. Elizabeth Gilbert has a good quote “ We had been fighting and crying; we were weary in only the way a couple whose marriage is collapsing can be weary. We had the eyes of refugees”.
It’s also mystifying, strange and so confusing to still want to hold them, to be intimate in every way, in the midst of that destruction. The love, the history, the hope, the hurt, the anger and disgust-the fine line between all of these, ever moving. Weird cocktail for sexual tension/desire. But palpable, thats for sure.
It hurts beyond measure the way they focus on the $ and the stuff and the logistics. The first time H. and I talked after the move out, I was crushed and insulted when he indicated some resentment over the way things had been divided. As if I was getting some pleasure or satisfaction out of “things”, or that I was somehow benefiting from this sitch. I think its pretty common the way the WAS needs to pigeonhole LBS as vengeful when they set boundaries and stand up for themselves in anyway, particularly related to “stuff”. My response to him at the time was a measured “All of the stuff is in storage. You know how it got there and why. I'm moving on X day. If you want anything, go get it. Otherwise I don’t expect to have this conversation again”.
Now that those things are somewhat settled for a while, we are getting the necessary space. Its only been just recently, 3 months after we really separated, that we have had any semblance of an authentic conversation. H. finally is feeling secure enough living on his own to not lash out and resent me for “ties” that remain. Getting those arrangements made has been a SLOW process because, as you’ve noted, it’s too emotionally charged to know how to think and act without just re-acting all over the place. I hear you about what the mojo lawyer says about the time frame, but if you can "afford" in all sense of the term to take it slow, I don't think you will have any regrets.
I only hope that you both can have some space now. Let her be responsible for her self, you take care of you, your kids, and let yourself heal a bit. Write your book when it feels good, don't pressure yourself to if you are still reeling and need to just be for a while.
You gave me great advice a while back, told me to keep on rollin my way and to create some light for myself. At first I struggled between how to detach and do nothing without calling that a done deal. Sometimes it feels very much like a done deal. Who cares what it is right now. The picking at the scab needs to stop for a while. In the medical world, we talk about 2 types of healing. Primary intention, when a gaping cut is sutured closed. Effective, but the stitching is trauma in itself. Secondary intention, when you leave the wound open, and leave it alone. Slowly it heals, from the innermost layer of tissue, out. You improve the surrounding conditions to give it the best chance to do its thing (apply a loose dressing, keep it clean, dry, protected, promote rest and good nutrion) but you basically just let it be. Let the body, time, and whatever other influential factors a person believes in, determine the outcome.
Wishing you all the strength in the world.
-Travel Dane
Been following. Lots of thoughtful posts from @coach, @greek, @lucky girl, etc., won't presume that what I have to offer is anything more than what has been so eloquently said.
Can tell you this. During this separation/pre D, whatever process, the worst times between H. and I have been when we actually got to the point of moving out of our house and the $ issues. It’s more difficult for them to compartmentalize when those things start happening for real. And it puts us in the position of having to set boundaries and preserve ourselves.
Which they take as an offensive move.
While I think its an unavoidable scenario, it did give me some comfort, dignity and some semblance of control to continue to navigate this part of the process in a way that I could feel good about,or to borrow your phraseology, “how I roll”. I couldn’t always do it. There were times when I felt so disrespected and mistreated that I wanted to not only defend myself but to push forward with some sort of offensive, if only to shut him down and put a stop to the madness. I would fight back, lash out, and remember being horrified at times, saying to myself and those around me “I am done, so done”.
I have participated in the lights thrown on wake up call, the middle of the night trading of F’-yous, the leave-get away from me right now or I wills, both of us showing our ugliest. It’s terrible, terrible to be pushed beyond reason, beyond decency, by the person you love. I am haunted by the reality of what we had inside us, that we could be that way to eachother. Elizabeth Gilbert has a good quote “ We had been fighting and crying; we were weary in only the way a couple whose marriage is collapsing can be weary. We had the eyes of refugees”.
It’s also mystifying, strange and so confusing to still want to hold them, to be intimate in every way, in the midst of that destruction. The love, the history, the hope, the hurt, the anger and disgust-the fine line between all of these, ever moving. Weird cocktail for sexual tension/desire. But palpable, thats for sure.
It hurts beyond measure the way they focus on the $ and the stuff and the logistics. The first time H. and I talked after the move out, I was crushed and insulted when he indicated some resentment over the way things had been divided. As if I was getting some pleasure or satisfaction out of “things”, or that I was somehow benefiting from this sitch. I think its pretty common the way the WAS needs to pigeonhole LBS as vengeful when they set boundaries and stand up for themselves in anyway, particularly related to “stuff”. My response to him at the time was a measured “All of the stuff is in storage. You know how it got there and why. I'm moving on X day. If you want anything, go get it. Otherwise I don’t expect to have this conversation again”.
Now that those things are somewhat settled for a while, we are getting the necessary space. Its only been just recently, 3 months after we really separated, that we have had any semblance of an authentic conversation. H. finally is feeling secure enough living on his own to not lash out and resent me for “ties” that remain. Getting those arrangements made has been a SLOW process because, as you’ve noted, it’s too emotionally charged to know how to think and act without just re-acting all over the place. I hear you about what the mojo lawyer says about the time frame, but if you can "afford" in all sense of the term to take it slow, I don't think you will have any regrets.
I only hope that you both can have some space now. Let her be responsible for her self, you take care of you, your kids, and let yourself heal a bit. Write your book when it feels good, don't pressure yourself to if you are still reeling and need to just be for a while.
You gave me great advice a while back, told me to keep on rollin my way and to create some light for myself. At first I struggled between how to detach and do nothing without calling that a done deal. Sometimes it feels very much like a done deal. Who cares what it is right now. The picking at the scab needs to stop for a while. In the medical world, we talk about 2 types of healing. Primary intention, when a gaping cut is sutured closed. Effective, but the stitching is trauma in itself. Secondary intention, when you leave the wound open, and leave it alone. Slowly it heals, from the innermost layer of tissue, out. You improve the surrounding conditions to give it the best chance to do its thing (apply a loose dressing, keep it clean, dry, protected, promote rest and good nutrion) but you basically just let it be. Let the body, time, and whatever other influential factors a person believes in, determine the outcome.
Wishing you all the strength in the world.
-Travel Dane
Re: And So It Comes - 06/27/09 12:16 AM
SP - You have a rough road ahead. You knew it was coming but I doubt there is any of us that could fully of prepared you for that sense of loss and abandonment.
Dbing to me is not all about getting your M back together, i think its main purpose is to help you. Still follow the principals of Dbing but make SP and the kids the main focus. Drop her from your thoughts for a while. ( If you can ). Plan plan plan your next hour, day and week. Dont stop moving forward.
You have more hellish times to come SP. I have sat back and read all your posts, been impressed with the mojo stories but knew deep down that reality was going to be a bitch.
You are strong, allow yourself to grieve and be angry. You will come through this . Just not today or possibly tommorrow. Still come here because heaps of people can help you with the continu ing emotional rollercoaster ride that you have not got off yet.
Dbing to me is not all about getting your M back together, i think its main purpose is to help you. Still follow the principals of Dbing but make SP and the kids the main focus. Drop her from your thoughts for a while. ( If you can ). Plan plan plan your next hour, day and week. Dont stop moving forward.
You have more hellish times to come SP. I have sat back and read all your posts, been impressed with the mojo stories but knew deep down that reality was going to be a bitch.
You are strong, allow yourself to grieve and be angry. You will come through this . Just not today or possibly tommorrow. Still come here because heaps of people can help you with the continu ing emotional rollercoaster ride that you have not got off yet.
Re: And So It Comes - 06/27/09 02:18 AM
I don't post much as I feel somewhat hypocritical as I am not trying to save my marriage. Mine is over and I am just awaiting the funeral (STBX filing). I do however read and learn from everyone on this board. Your situation and life story have me transfixed. I am able through your words to feel your emotions and am on this rollercoaster ride with you. I can't put into words, myself how very sorry I am that your life for the moment is so painful. It is so very cliché to say that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, but it has some truth in it. You are becoming. You are growing. None of these things are easy and you are embracing the pain that is necessary to fulfill your destiny and become the SP you are meant to be. Whether your wife ever appreciates it, please know that your children will always have it in their heart and for those of us that you have so kindly allowed to witness your transformation, we have grown and learned by your example. I have such warm thoughts for you and wish you so much peace in that wounded heart of yours. Breathe. In and Out. Life is good!
And There It Goes - 06/27/09 03:16 AM
Nice words, everyone, and thank you for them.
After last night's Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon, I had interest approaching Zero in engaging with WAW this morning.
She, on the other hand, clearly wanted to reach out. She was contrite, quiet, practically meek. No thanks.
She inquired, meekly, would it be okay if she called the kids?
Of course -- I will never interpose myself between the children and their mother (assuming there's no potential harm, abuse, etc.).
Could she see the kids? Not this weekend. We're just going to get ourselves straight, the kids and I.
And so off we went on a day at the beach. We stopped for breakfast -- pigs-in-blankets for the two younglings, ham-and-eggs for Himself. We picked up some sandwiches and drinks. And then off we went.
The kids had a great time. We saw jellies, sand crabs, pelicans. We made sand castles. Stopped for frozen yogurt. Did some shopping.
Prepped them for the sight that will greet them upon hitting the door -- empty living room, empty breakfast nook, etc.
They took it pretty well. We made a pizza and fired up the new big'un LCD teevee.
They spoke to WAW briefly, both rallying.
Went upstairs to get bath and bed underway. Sat down at my computer.
What I feared.
A note.
There it sits.
After last night's Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon, I had interest approaching Zero in engaging with WAW this morning.
She, on the other hand, clearly wanted to reach out. She was contrite, quiet, practically meek. No thanks.
She inquired, meekly, would it be okay if she called the kids?
Of course -- I will never interpose myself between the children and their mother (assuming there's no potential harm, abuse, etc.).
Could she see the kids? Not this weekend. We're just going to get ourselves straight, the kids and I.
And so off we went on a day at the beach. We stopped for breakfast -- pigs-in-blankets for the two younglings, ham-and-eggs for Himself. We picked up some sandwiches and drinks. And then off we went.
The kids had a great time. We saw jellies, sand crabs, pelicans. We made sand castles. Stopped for frozen yogurt. Did some shopping.
Prepped them for the sight that will greet them upon hitting the door -- empty living room, empty breakfast nook, etc.
They took it pretty well. We made a pizza and fired up the new big'un LCD teevee.
They spoke to WAW briefly, both rallying.
Went upstairs to get bath and bed underway. Sat down at my computer.
What I feared.
A note.
There it sits.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/27/09 03:29 AM
Through it all.....Breathe!
Re: And There It Goes - 06/27/09 03:52 AM
Usually I would wail about a cliffhanger. Remember how tough it was a kid reading those words "To Be Continued" on the screen not knowing if Fonzie landed the jump at Al's Diner? Oh, the agony!
But not this time. When you're ready.
I so wish I could I be there. For a beer, cigar, a man hug, or whatever it takes. You're in my thoughts.
But not this time. When you're ready.
I so wish I could I be there. For a beer, cigar, a man hug, or whatever it takes. You're in my thoughts.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/27/09 04:54 AM
Shoot, I don't drink beer, smoke cigars, and well I have two rather large mammary glands and the wrong plumbing to give a man hug, but I'd drink a beer, smoke a cigar, and give you the biggest hug I could if it would help. I realize we must have rainy days to appreciate the sun, but damn if life couldn't be easier to get through.
*hugs* and peaceful thoughts coming your way from me to you!
*hugs* and peaceful thoughts coming your way from me to you!
Re: And There It Goes - 06/27/09 06:56 AM
SP - Your W will at some point look back with regret. She has some reality checks coming her way.
Her future is much much bleaker than yours. Yours will not contain regret and it will have a couple of kids in it and who knows how many grandkids. Hers might have a splattering of that but lots of ' could I of done it differently '.
Its not our careers or ourselves that keep us warm and loved in our old years. Its our family. You have preserved your family and it might look a little odd at the moment but it will become the norm.
Chin up . I think all of us here feel what your feeling right now. It does get better.
Her future is much much bleaker than yours. Yours will not contain regret and it will have a couple of kids in it and who knows how many grandkids. Hers might have a splattering of that but lots of ' could I of done it differently '.
Its not our careers or ourselves that keep us warm and loved in our old years. Its our family. You have preserved your family and it might look a little odd at the moment but it will become the norm.
Chin up . I think all of us here feel what your feeling right now. It does get better.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/27/09 08:03 AM
Hey Smiley Guy..
The Note.
And there is no right or wrong. You're doing the best you can, every day.
A few things I try to keep in mind..
If the emotions are mixed, avoid the blender.
If everything starts boiling in the stew of life, don't stir it with your finger.
Nice deep breaths are wonderful.. getting all that oxygen rich blood to the brain.
I imagine the action of my spouse as a pretty big deep wound on my body.. usually my arm. What he did hurt... alot. How I treat the initial wound determines how it heals. If I keep picking on it, poking and probing it.. it doesn't get much better, sometimes even worse. For a while all I could do was look at that gaping wound. It took almost all my attention. Eventually it becomes an arm again, something damaged but usable. I find my laughter, my body as a whole, the 'boring' in life rather than the emotionally charged existence. It heals as much as I let it heal.
So.. big guy.. there are no answers.. just you.. the man, the dad with open arms and cuddliciousness for your kids. The stillness in time realizing this is just the tip of the iceberg. Choices. Triage.
You don't need this but here's permission to cry, to let go, to drop the well crafted entertaining and/or engaging posts. Do what helps heal.. you... emotionally, physically, spiritually..
One step at a time.
One day at a time.
You're loved, admired and appreciated.
*hugs*
The Note.
And there is no right or wrong. You're doing the best you can, every day.
A few things I try to keep in mind..
If the emotions are mixed, avoid the blender.
If everything starts boiling in the stew of life, don't stir it with your finger.
Nice deep breaths are wonderful.. getting all that oxygen rich blood to the brain.
I imagine the action of my spouse as a pretty big deep wound on my body.. usually my arm. What he did hurt... alot. How I treat the initial wound determines how it heals. If I keep picking on it, poking and probing it.. it doesn't get much better, sometimes even worse. For a while all I could do was look at that gaping wound. It took almost all my attention. Eventually it becomes an arm again, something damaged but usable. I find my laughter, my body as a whole, the 'boring' in life rather than the emotionally charged existence. It heals as much as I let it heal.
So.. big guy.. there are no answers.. just you.. the man, the dad with open arms and cuddliciousness for your kids. The stillness in time realizing this is just the tip of the iceberg. Choices. Triage.
You don't need this but here's permission to cry, to let go, to drop the well crafted entertaining and/or engaging posts. Do what helps heal.. you... emotionally, physically, spiritually..
One step at a time.
One day at a time.
You're loved, admired and appreciated.
*hugs*
Re: And There It Goes - 06/27/09 12:15 PM
SP,
Sorry you are going thru this, I can relate like most of us here. A short piece of advice:avoid the drama. In your head,your thoughts, your feelings. Distance yourself a little bit -I know it is nearly impossible- take it slow... The reality will be MUCH easier than what you anticipate. That is for sure.
xxxx
K
Sorry you are going thru this, I can relate like most of us here. A short piece of advice:avoid the drama. In your head,your thoughts, your feelings. Distance yourself a little bit -I know it is nearly impossible- take it slow... The reality will be MUCH easier than what you anticipate. That is for sure.
xxxx
K
Re: And There It Goes - 06/27/09 05:29 PM
There the note still sits.
But I recalled something from the Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon that I wanted to get down. During the pause between Wacko and Wakco II: The Return of Batsh*t-Crazy WAW Herself was sitting on the floor, listening to me -- "hearing"? dunno -- and she said the oddest thing:
"They make it impossible for people to reconcile. The state says it has an interest in marriage, but it makes it impossible to reconcile. And all the people involved? How could anyone ever reconcile? Your family? They hate me. We'd have to move, get new identities. It's impossible."
And she said that at least twice that I recall -- maybe three times. "They" make it "impossible" to reconcile.
I'm not sure I "heard" it as I should have, or perhaps I just ignored it because it was so discordant with the rest of the "conversation."
But who, exactly, are "they" supposed to be? And what's this insanity with "all the people" being made equivalent to "my family." Yes, my family is ultra-p*ssed -- but she's spent 4 months (as far as I can tell) having created this Parallel Herself, who "can't stop smiling" and is "living bliss" about the whole thing. If there's a "they" there, it's "them" -- how would she possibly confront the dozens of people she's laid this fairy tale on and "backslide" home?
I said as much to her once, you'll recall (from the previous or previous-to-that thread), and she said she'd never let her ego get in the way if something like reconciliation were possible.
But that little "and all the people" -- her own acknowledgment that, in fact, it would get in the way?
Oh, well -- gotta go for now.
The note still sits.
But I recalled something from the Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon that I wanted to get down. During the pause between Wacko and Wakco II: The Return of Batsh*t-Crazy WAW Herself was sitting on the floor, listening to me -- "hearing"? dunno -- and she said the oddest thing:
"They make it impossible for people to reconcile. The state says it has an interest in marriage, but it makes it impossible to reconcile. And all the people involved? How could anyone ever reconcile? Your family? They hate me. We'd have to move, get new identities. It's impossible."
And she said that at least twice that I recall -- maybe three times. "They" make it "impossible" to reconcile.
I'm not sure I "heard" it as I should have, or perhaps I just ignored it because it was so discordant with the rest of the "conversation."
But who, exactly, are "they" supposed to be? And what's this insanity with "all the people" being made equivalent to "my family." Yes, my family is ultra-p*ssed -- but she's spent 4 months (as far as I can tell) having created this Parallel Herself, who "can't stop smiling" and is "living bliss" about the whole thing. If there's a "they" there, it's "them" -- how would she possibly confront the dozens of people she's laid this fairy tale on and "backslide" home?
I said as much to her once, you'll recall (from the previous or previous-to-that thread), and she said she'd never let her ego get in the way if something like reconciliation were possible.
But that little "and all the people" -- her own acknowledgment that, in fact, it would get in the way?
Oh, well -- gotta go for now.
The note still sits.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/27/09 06:25 PM
Amazing how this "barrier" becomes part of the WAS's drive to push forward.
I was told "I can't go back" and "I'd never feel good about myself in our relationship again, I'd feel like I'd always owe you".
My response: "You'd owe me the same thing you've always owed me, the same thing I would owe you, your best. I wasn't talking about going back. I was talking about going forward".
I saw reconcilation between my cousin and his wife...after an A, exposure, separation initatiated by the unfaithful spouse,horrible fighting and bizarre details. They have 3 kids and it was bad bad times all around. They lived apart for about 18 months. They both said it was very very over. During their initial reconciliation, it was hard on the family who had witnessed it all, but once we all saw that both spouses were genunine and commited, everyone began to be tentatively supportive.
What the WAS doesn't realize is, we the LBS, in considering reconciliation, have to live with stigma too. We get to live with people's quiet (or not so quiet) judgements, their own assumptions about what they would or would not do or accept. The WAS thinks they are the only one that has their dirty laundry aired in the process.
I think that when and if it gets to that point for anyone, the emphasis needs to be on why reconciliation is what both people want, and not just how difficult it would be to make happen.
I was told "I can't go back" and "I'd never feel good about myself in our relationship again, I'd feel like I'd always owe you".
My response: "You'd owe me the same thing you've always owed me, the same thing I would owe you, your best. I wasn't talking about going back. I was talking about going forward".
I saw reconcilation between my cousin and his wife...after an A, exposure, separation initatiated by the unfaithful spouse,horrible fighting and bizarre details. They have 3 kids and it was bad bad times all around. They lived apart for about 18 months. They both said it was very very over. During their initial reconciliation, it was hard on the family who had witnessed it all, but once we all saw that both spouses were genunine and commited, everyone began to be tentatively supportive.
What the WAS doesn't realize is, we the LBS, in considering reconciliation, have to live with stigma too. We get to live with people's quiet (or not so quiet) judgements, their own assumptions about what they would or would not do or accept. The WAS thinks they are the only one that has their dirty laundry aired in the process.
I think that when and if it gets to that point for anyone, the emphasis needs to be on why reconciliation is what both people want, and not just how difficult it would be to make happen.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/27/09 06:33 PM
It must be so sad to be always right then get a second thought.
It's too bad "they" make it so tough to go back. Oh, but we know who "they" is don't we. "They" is not the family, the friends, or the neighborhood, who would see this so called backslide and think less of her for going back on her decision. No, "they" is the fragile ego of herself that doesn't like the taste of crow. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and (s)he is us."
So how do we make it easier for them?
It's too bad "they" make it so tough to go back. Oh, but we know who "they" is don't we. "They" is not the family, the friends, or the neighborhood, who would see this so called backslide and think less of her for going back on her decision. No, "they" is the fragile ego of herself that doesn't like the taste of crow. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and (s)he is us."
So how do we make it easier for them?
Re: And There It Goes - 06/28/09 01:52 AM
Quiet day. The kids and I did Saturday stuff. Sports. Groceries. Gas. We played over at the school. Rearranged the master bedroom -- I didn't sleep there last night. For one it felt weird; for two it smelled like WAW. Not "smelled" in a bad way. But was redolent of the Essence of WAW. Couldn't handle it. So I washed everything on "Super Wash" cycle. Rearranged. Clean sheets. New towels.
I'm going to try to sleep there tonight. But it's weird. I haven't slept regularly in that room since February 7, 2003. On the 8th I reported for deployment to Iraq. And somehow the sleeping-together never came back into focus after my return to the States in the early summer of 2004.
Note to Self and Fellow DB'ers. Co-sleeping, sleeping in same bed. Essential for intimacy. Probably the most-controllable aspect of my descent and fall into the world of D -- the most preventable. And possibly the one that would have paid biggest dividends had I addressed it. Not sure why -- I mean, you're asleep and all. But it's got something to do with Two-ness in the same space. I have to think on it some more.
Fitful sleep last night. Couldn't get up. Boy-child woke up at 5, distressed (by his account); came downstairs to check on me. "You were looking so comfortable, Daddy, I didn't want to bother you, so I went back to bed. Was that okay?"
Little man.
Ran into a couple we know at the House O' Really Big Stuff (6 pound jars of peanut butter, 12,000-packs of napkins). Didn't occur to me that I might run into WAW there, it being close to her new house and Saturday and all, until I was already committed -- membership card flashed, cart piled high with new towels (gotta love House O' Really Big Stuff).
Anyway, this couple is super and were very good friends of ours. I'm there with the younglings so, of course, "how's Mrs. SP" is the natural course of convo. So I break the news. Mrs. Couple was sweet -- she was trying so hard not to cry.
I gave them the Cliff's Notes version, said some brave things about one-day-at-a-time and seeing-what-we'll-see and the like, and then invited Mrs. Couple -- who is very fond of WAW -- to call Herself and check in on her.
Mindful of the Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon that ensued when I had the gall to remove Herself's Mother's painting from the wall -- from my wall -- to protect it from the movers, I texted WAW: FYI, ran into Couple @ House O' Really Big Stuff. Told re: D. Mrs. C cried. Asked her 2 call U 4 support if U need it.
WAW texted back immediately: Was there ystday saw Divorced Former Neighbor Lady. Same reaction. DFNL says worst mistake of our lives. Wants to talk to us both.
Well, now, that's a puzzler. Didn't want to have a "conversation" with WAW. Not today. And she's kind of tricking me into it, text-wise. But why mention the last piece unless it was on her mind? But she's only 24 hours into this -- I don't have faith in her decision-making processes, any more than I did when she offered me an entire house, all of her houses, anything!, if she didn't have to pay support. She's not thinking straight and, opening or not, I'm not dealing with a Not-Straight-Thinking WAW.
First, what if she got cold feet and "came home" -- what guarantee is there (okay, forget "guarantee" -- how much confidence could I have in the likelihood) that, once comfortable again, she couldn't be a Re-WAW? Because her decision to return wouldn't have been based on reflection and evaluation, but would have been based on fear.
Second, she hasn't had enough time. Her BFF came over last night; she's partying tonight; BFF will be there until tomorrow night. So she's been "alone" in her new house a total of about 3 hours. She hasn't started to feel what she's going to feel. This, I think, needs to be ridden out for a while.
(Plus the "our" in "worst mistake of our lives" really bugged me. "What do you mean, 'we,' white man?" asked Tonto.)
So I was cagey in my reply: Time/space 4 now. Kids ok. Njoy yr frenz [WAW is having a house-warming party tonight]. FYI got yr note. Havnt red. That was probably bad DB Kung-fu, but I couldn't get going down that road. Not today. Not trying to rebuild this house. And certainly not at a red light.
I'm going to try to sleep there tonight. But it's weird. I haven't slept regularly in that room since February 7, 2003. On the 8th I reported for deployment to Iraq. And somehow the sleeping-together never came back into focus after my return to the States in the early summer of 2004.
Note to Self and Fellow DB'ers. Co-sleeping, sleeping in same bed. Essential for intimacy. Probably the most-controllable aspect of my descent and fall into the world of D -- the most preventable. And possibly the one that would have paid biggest dividends had I addressed it. Not sure why -- I mean, you're asleep and all. But it's got something to do with Two-ness in the same space. I have to think on it some more.
Fitful sleep last night. Couldn't get up. Boy-child woke up at 5, distressed (by his account); came downstairs to check on me. "You were looking so comfortable, Daddy, I didn't want to bother you, so I went back to bed. Was that okay?"
Little man.
Ran into a couple we know at the House O' Really Big Stuff (6 pound jars of peanut butter, 12,000-packs of napkins). Didn't occur to me that I might run into WAW there, it being close to her new house and Saturday and all, until I was already committed -- membership card flashed, cart piled high with new towels (gotta love House O' Really Big Stuff).
Anyway, this couple is super and were very good friends of ours. I'm there with the younglings so, of course, "how's Mrs. SP" is the natural course of convo. So I break the news. Mrs. Couple was sweet -- she was trying so hard not to cry.
I gave them the Cliff's Notes version, said some brave things about one-day-at-a-time and seeing-what-we'll-see and the like, and then invited Mrs. Couple -- who is very fond of WAW -- to call Herself and check in on her.
Mindful of the Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon that ensued when I had the gall to remove Herself's Mother's painting from the wall -- from my wall -- to protect it from the movers, I texted WAW: FYI, ran into Couple @ House O' Really Big Stuff. Told re: D. Mrs. C cried. Asked her 2 call U 4 support if U need it.
WAW texted back immediately: Was there ystday saw Divorced Former Neighbor Lady. Same reaction. DFNL says worst mistake of our lives. Wants to talk to us both.
Well, now, that's a puzzler. Didn't want to have a "conversation" with WAW. Not today. And she's kind of tricking me into it, text-wise. But why mention the last piece unless it was on her mind? But she's only 24 hours into this -- I don't have faith in her decision-making processes, any more than I did when she offered me an entire house, all of her houses, anything!, if she didn't have to pay support. She's not thinking straight and, opening or not, I'm not dealing with a Not-Straight-Thinking WAW.
First, what if she got cold feet and "came home" -- what guarantee is there (okay, forget "guarantee" -- how much confidence could I have in the likelihood) that, once comfortable again, she couldn't be a Re-WAW? Because her decision to return wouldn't have been based on reflection and evaluation, but would have been based on fear.
Second, she hasn't had enough time. Her BFF came over last night; she's partying tonight; BFF will be there until tomorrow night. So she's been "alone" in her new house a total of about 3 hours. She hasn't started to feel what she's going to feel. This, I think, needs to be ridden out for a while.
(Plus the "our" in "worst mistake of our lives" really bugged me. "What do you mean, 'we,' white man?" asked Tonto.)
So I was cagey in my reply: Time/space 4 now. Kids ok. Njoy yr frenz [WAW is having a house-warming party tonight]. FYI got yr note. Havnt red. That was probably bad DB Kung-fu, but I couldn't get going down that road. Not today. Not trying to rebuild this house. And certainly not at a red light.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/28/09 03:22 AM
Maybe you could say, "You forgot your note here. It's in the mail."
Re: And There It Goes - 06/28/09 03:03 PM
Man, I must be mildly depressed or something. I cannot get out of bed at my normal abnormal time - wake at 730 feeling dead. Literally. Arm completely numb with giant pressure marks from my giant body. Kids tumble into the bedroom, and I can hardly pry an eye open. Slept in the master last night. Started out in the middle of the bed but seemed to have worked my way, inevitably I suppose, to "my" side of the marital real estate. Still smells of WAW in here. And now I do, too. Ffffffffff***************cccccckkkkkkkkkkk
Re: And There It Goes - 06/28/09 03:06 PM
Baby steps, SP. It sucks and will suck for a while. You are dealing with a lot of heavy stuff. Be as kind to yourself as you were and are to Mrs SP. Give yourself time.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/28/09 04:18 PM
Time. There is no substitute. Wish there was.
I liked Gypsy's broken arm analogy a lot. Of course, for some of us, it seems as though the arm needs to be broken again and re-set. Several times.
SP, i know exactly what you mean about the smells. They are so powerful and really work on your psyche. I loved how my ex smelled. It was just yummy. Pheromones and all that.
I know it's kind of foo-foo, but I like reed diffusers. I picked out some that are the antithesis of what my ex represents to me now. He went from what I would consider a fairly progressive, compassionate human being (while we were dating), to a very strict, must have control at all times (after we were married) Borderline Personality. Funny how they can keep their real selves under wraps when they absolutely need to....but, I digress....
So anyway, now my place smells like Sandalwood and Patchouli instead of hard-core disinfectants. I know it's a bit retro, but I find it comforting.
They have tons of different diffuser oils online. One, I swear, smelled a bit like gun oil. It was called "Ylang-Ylang" and I liked it too. I hate the sickening, sweet floral ones. The woodsy ones are good. Too bad I can't find one that smells like sawdust and chain saw oil.
I liked Gypsy's broken arm analogy a lot. Of course, for some of us, it seems as though the arm needs to be broken again and re-set. Several times.
SP, i know exactly what you mean about the smells. They are so powerful and really work on your psyche. I loved how my ex smelled. It was just yummy. Pheromones and all that.
I know it's kind of foo-foo, but I like reed diffusers. I picked out some that are the antithesis of what my ex represents to me now. He went from what I would consider a fairly progressive, compassionate human being (while we were dating), to a very strict, must have control at all times (after we were married) Borderline Personality. Funny how they can keep their real selves under wraps when they absolutely need to....but, I digress....
So anyway, now my place smells like Sandalwood and Patchouli instead of hard-core disinfectants. I know it's a bit retro, but I find it comforting.
They have tons of different diffuser oils online. One, I swear, smelled a bit like gun oil. It was called "Ylang-Ylang" and I liked it too. I hate the sickening, sweet floral ones. The woodsy ones are good. Too bad I can't find one that smells like sawdust and chain saw oil.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/28/09 08:13 PM
Only mildly depressed? You've been through a lot. Repair time.
When I'm going through my roughest times my sleep time really isn't sleep at all. I fall asleep early then wake up in the middle of the night after a dark, numb, dreamless state. It feels like morning but only a few hours have gone by. Other times I never reach deep sleep but end up cycling through problems in a barely a light haze of sleep.
--
I though I'd never say it but I miss tripping over W's girly shoes and clothes scattered all over the floor. Nothing like stepping on an upside down high heel at 6am for a quick jolt awake. I ended up with one or two of her casual shirts in my laundry and I don't want to give them back. Does this mean I miss her?
When I'm going through my roughest times my sleep time really isn't sleep at all. I fall asleep early then wake up in the middle of the night after a dark, numb, dreamless state. It feels like morning but only a few hours have gone by. Other times I never reach deep sleep but end up cycling through problems in a barely a light haze of sleep.
--
I though I'd never say it but I miss tripping over W's girly shoes and clothes scattered all over the floor. Nothing like stepping on an upside down high heel at 6am for a quick jolt awake. I ended up with one or two of her casual shirts in my laundry and I don't want to give them back. Does this mean I miss her?
Re: And There It Goes - 06/28/09 11:00 PM
Sp,
Sleep returns. Comes back slowly, but comes back. For a while I overslept terribly. Woke up late feeling drugged. Then I stopped setting the alarm clock. Went to bed as early as I thought I could with a halfway decent chance of falling asleep and allowed my body and mind all the sleep they needed, letting them decide when enough sleep had been had. Took about two weeks for me, fwiw.
And the smells. The smells.....
The olfactory sense evokes the memory more powerfully than any of the other senses.
Take care of yourself.
Sleep returns. Comes back slowly, but comes back. For a while I overslept terribly. Woke up late feeling drugged. Then I stopped setting the alarm clock. Went to bed as early as I thought I could with a halfway decent chance of falling asleep and allowed my body and mind all the sleep they needed, letting them decide when enough sleep had been had. Took about two weeks for me, fwiw.
And the smells. The smells.....
The olfactory sense evokes the memory more powerfully than any of the other senses.
Take care of yourself.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 12:09 AM
Hey SP- I was just wondering, do you believe in any higher power? Even if it is just that indefinable energy that compels us to wake up in the morning, trees to grow, an infant to survive under rubble after an earthquake...?
I mean, this is tough stuff. I know you're a practical guy but can you see that there may be some bigger picture, rhyme/reason path that you're on that makes sense in some realm? Maybe the Twilight Zone? But somewhere, somehow?
I am not a God person, however, I think that science and spirituality will perhaps one day prove to be one and the same...I mean there is an undeniable life-force and why would we be endowed with such capacities to feel so deeply and intensely if there was no reason (and I don't mean a reason within our comprehension)?
I think this would be a perfect time (when you're not WRITING YOUR BOOK) to explore your connection to a higher power or life force or energy or what have you...just occurred to me.
I hope you are alright today.
I mean, this is tough stuff. I know you're a practical guy but can you see that there may be some bigger picture, rhyme/reason path that you're on that makes sense in some realm? Maybe the Twilight Zone? But somewhere, somehow?
I am not a God person, however, I think that science and spirituality will perhaps one day prove to be one and the same...I mean there is an undeniable life-force and why would we be endowed with such capacities to feel so deeply and intensely if there was no reason (and I don't mean a reason within our comprehension)?
I think this would be a perfect time (when you're not WRITING YOUR BOOK) to explore your connection to a higher power or life force or energy or what have you...just occurred to me.
I hope you are alright today.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 01:01 AM
No wonder you are requiring more sleep. The ammount of energy this expience requires is astounding. To just get through the day and then get up and do it all over again, to be present for your kids...all the while your mind is battling and stress "fight and flight" hormones are surging through your body...
Once your self is able to grab a patch of restorative sleep it wants to hang on, for dear life.
let it.
Once your self is able to grab a patch of restorative sleep it wants to hang on, for dear life.
let it.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 01:39 AM
Hey SP...check out traveldane's signature line! It says..."when you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on"-FDR Isn't that good? Hey man...you're a 'stout' dude! You help lots of people here, and you've got a ton of support here. So...hang on...and hang in there!
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 02:04 AM
Thanks for the good words, everyone. At the moment. The moment. I need to eat something.
Had to borrow the mini-fridge in the garage to Herself, as she bought a new fridge w/o bothering to measure the space. "Well, we're on our own now."
Her text was sad. So I asked her if she wanted to take the kids to supper, which she jumped at. I've been using the time to get somewhat more situated. Putting the clothes back in the dresser.
Which means I had to confront the t-shirt drawer. With all the stupid t-shirts from the stupid places we stupidly went when we were stupidly a loving couple. New Orleans, Tahiti, the Police concert, Alexandria, Cambodia, on and on and on. Good thing we have a clothes-for-the-needy bin across the street.
I'll have to take the comforter to the dry cleaner. Washed the outer on Super, twice, it smells of Billy Mays now, may he rest in peace. But the comforter itself still WAWly.
Who'da thought. At the end of it all, it comes down to smell.
Blarg.
Had to borrow the mini-fridge in the garage to Herself, as she bought a new fridge w/o bothering to measure the space. "Well, we're on our own now."
Her text was sad. So I asked her if she wanted to take the kids to supper, which she jumped at. I've been using the time to get somewhat more situated. Putting the clothes back in the dresser.
Which means I had to confront the t-shirt drawer. With all the stupid t-shirts from the stupid places we stupidly went when we were stupidly a loving couple. New Orleans, Tahiti, the Police concert, Alexandria, Cambodia, on and on and on. Good thing we have a clothes-for-the-needy bin across the street.
I'll have to take the comforter to the dry cleaner. Washed the outer on Super, twice, it smells of Billy Mays now, may he rest in peace. But the comforter itself still WAWly.
Who'da thought. At the end of it all, it comes down to smell.
Blarg.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 03:38 AM
Hey Sweet Guy...
Sucks the big patookie. *hugs*
Pack up, give away, release your olfactory sense.
Redo the bed.. new comforter (duvet? down comforter?), pillows, mattress pad, sheets.. anything bed. Give your nose, your heart.. relief.
The twinges come in many forms.. those tee-shirts, knick knacks, etc. Get it out of your day-to-day life.
Although this goes contrary to your personality.. consider dropping the 'rescuing'.. "her text sounded sad so I asked her if she wanted to take the kids to supper"..
She's the one who has to learn to ask, to evolve. It's not your job (nor was it ever) to do her thinking for her. Letting her wobble on her own two feet, fall and stand up is all part of the process for her.. AND you.
It's easier to focus on someone else rather than yourself. Mojoloscity is a tremendous vehicle.. but it's time to focus on you.. healing, being healthy, getting on track.
Only after the divorce did I realize how insidious pursuing was. Let go... only then can she find her way.. one way or the other. Letting go helps you find your way forward. It's not giving up hope or belief.. it's allowing the next step.. a new relationship in one way, shape or form.
Five years out of the marital bed? Out of the marital room and its dresser? Something broke.. on both sides. Learn.. just learn about you. You can't 'fix' her... you can heal you.
Children model after their parents in good times and in bad. It's not about being perfect.. it's being human. I learned so much from my husband's departure.. that in some areas I hadn't matured at all. Oops.
Is it soldiering on? Is it surviving? Uhhhhhh.... maybe...
I like to think it's learning how to live... a devastating shock that allows tremendous growth.
Use the force for good.. and wisely.
You're worth it.
*hugs*
Sucks the big patookie. *hugs*
Pack up, give away, release your olfactory sense.
Redo the bed.. new comforter (duvet? down comforter?), pillows, mattress pad, sheets.. anything bed. Give your nose, your heart.. relief.
The twinges come in many forms.. those tee-shirts, knick knacks, etc. Get it out of your day-to-day life.
Although this goes contrary to your personality.. consider dropping the 'rescuing'.. "her text sounded sad so I asked her if she wanted to take the kids to supper"..
She's the one who has to learn to ask, to evolve. It's not your job (nor was it ever) to do her thinking for her. Letting her wobble on her own two feet, fall and stand up is all part of the process for her.. AND you.
It's easier to focus on someone else rather than yourself. Mojoloscity is a tremendous vehicle.. but it's time to focus on you.. healing, being healthy, getting on track.
Only after the divorce did I realize how insidious pursuing was. Let go... only then can she find her way.. one way or the other. Letting go helps you find your way forward. It's not giving up hope or belief.. it's allowing the next step.. a new relationship in one way, shape or form.
Five years out of the marital bed? Out of the marital room and its dresser? Something broke.. on both sides. Learn.. just learn about you. You can't 'fix' her... you can heal you.
Children model after their parents in good times and in bad. It's not about being perfect.. it's being human. I learned so much from my husband's departure.. that in some areas I hadn't matured at all. Oops.
Is it soldiering on? Is it surviving? Uhhhhhh.... maybe...
I like to think it's learning how to live... a devastating shock that allows tremendous growth.
Use the force for good.. and wisely.
You're worth it.
*hugs*
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 12:27 PM
Quote:
Although this goes contrary to your personality.. consider dropping the 'rescuing'.. "her text sounded sad so I asked her if she wanted to take the kids to supper". She's the one who has to learn to ask, to evolve. It's not your job.
You're right, you're right, I know you're right. I felt bad for the kids, though, too -- it was as much for them as for her. Maybe more (he said, knowing he'd like to believe that). Saturday night S cried, "I need hugs from Mommy now!" at bedtime.
Last night, after I put them to bed upon their return, D6 asked me to stay with the door closed. She hid under the blanket and told me she can't cry, she can't cry, she can't cry. Why?
Because it will be even more sadder if I do. My heart is in the dumps. It isn't even red or pink anymore, it's grey. Why can't you and Mommy ever stop arguing? Why can't you be married? That's how it's supposed to be for kids, don't you get that?
Tried to comfort her, to let her know it's okay to be sad, that Daddy's sad, that even Mommy is sad, too. And we don't argue; things happen in the lives of adults that don't make sense to kids, and it's okay they don't make sense. [Whoever would have thought that more-or-less amicable D could be worse for kids than the alternative???] What matters most is that she has two parents who love her very much -- they don't have to be married to each other to love her. And there's nothing wrong with crying. Told her she can always come to me, and that if she doesn't want to do that she can whisper her secrets and her sadness to her "Scooter" (a little stuffed animal she's attached to).
But she wasn't buying it. Just lay there, little hands balled up into fists pushing against her eyes, trying to keep the tears in.
Breathe. Blink. Step. Breathe. Blink. Step. And somehow find enough of the Mojo, the Right Stuff, the Life Essence to think, clearly, coldly, vigorously, systematically, about The Book; the Article; the 4-month Overdue Report; the deltas on next week's trip; doing the household budget and bills for the first time in...in ever; getting out on the road for my charity marathon [FYI, never let a concerned and well-meaning friend convince you that a great GAL activity would be running your first marathon, particularly when the kind of Scotch whisky that comes packed in its own little wooden box is involved.]; and Being Present for She Who Cannot Cry and He Who Needs Mommy's Hugs.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 12:38 PM
Sigh...
That's all right now.
Just continue to hang...
That's all right now.
Just continue to hang...
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 12:52 PM
Smile Guy..
I'm impressed.. you agree agree agree with me! Now why not embrace it?
This part sucks beyond words.. the pain it causes your children. You can't talk for their mommy, you shouldn't rescue her from her actions in their eyes. You can listen, you can be their rock. Sometimes it's time to silently sit beside them in their sorrow, other times distraction might work.. If your daughter can't cry, then have a bottle of bubbles and ask her if she can show you how she feels by blowing them.
Some kids (my daughter and yours truly) communicate better when occupied with something else... drawing, playing with baby ratties, blowing bubbles.
Stop rescuing mommy. Stop doing her thinking for her.
Work on you. The mask is unnecessary.. you're incredible without it. Get healthy... look in the mirror and be good to that guy looking back. You're worth it.
*hugs*
I'm impressed.. you agree agree agree with me! Now why not embrace it?
This part sucks beyond words.. the pain it causes your children. You can't talk for their mommy, you shouldn't rescue her from her actions in their eyes. You can listen, you can be their rock. Sometimes it's time to silently sit beside them in their sorrow, other times distraction might work.. If your daughter can't cry, then have a bottle of bubbles and ask her if she can show you how she feels by blowing them.
Some kids (my daughter and yours truly) communicate better when occupied with something else... drawing, playing with baby ratties, blowing bubbles.
Stop rescuing mommy. Stop doing her thinking for her.
Work on you. The mask is unnecessary.. you're incredible without it. Get healthy... look in the mirror and be good to that guy looking back. You're worth it.
*hugs*
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 01:34 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
[quote]
Saturday night S cried, "I need hugs from Mommy now!" at bedtime.
Last night, after I put them to bed upon their return, D6 asked me to stay with the door closed. She hid under the blanket and told me she can't cry, she can't cry, she can't cry. Why?
Because it will be even more sadder if I do. My heart is in the dumps. It isn't even red or pink anymore, it's grey. Why can't you and Mommy ever stop arguing? Why can't you be married? That's how it's supposed to be for kids, don't you get that?
But she wasn't buying it. Just lay there, little hands balled up into fists pushing against her eyes, trying to keep the tears in.
Saturday night S cried, "I need hugs from Mommy now!" at bedtime.
Last night, after I put them to bed upon their return, D6 asked me to stay with the door closed. She hid under the blanket and told me she can't cry, she can't cry, she can't cry. Why?
Because it will be even more sadder if I do. My heart is in the dumps. It isn't even red or pink anymore, it's grey. Why can't you and Mommy ever stop arguing? Why can't you be married? That's how it's supposed to be for kids, don't you get that?
But she wasn't buying it. Just lay there, little hands balled up into fists pushing against her eyes, trying to keep the tears in.
Smiley--
This all broke my heart an I am crying for you little girl who cannot cry for herself. The worst of it is the person you should be able to share it with is the last person who wants to hear it BECAUSE THEY ARE AT THE ROOT OF IT.
As DH pulls out of the driveway every night, S3 gets out of bed to watch him leave and then D17 and I fight for the next hour to get him back to bed. Even after we do, he often times ends up sleeping in with D6. Finally, last night, I decided "screw it, I am done protecting DH's feelings." When he asked (as he does EVERY night) what time the kids had to go to bed, I reiterated bedtime, and then told him that it really did not matter, as S3 was going to (see above) the minute he was gone. DH's solution was a bribe of an extra bedtime story. Well, S3 stayed in bed when DH left, but by 2am was in with his sister again. When I asked D6 of she minded, she told me "No, mommy. S3 and I miss Daddy and we hug each other to go back to sleep."
I so get the hurt and anger. I want to punch something--preferably DH--scream, rage at how unfair it is for my kids to be hurt so deeply by their own father. But, I bite my tongue, hug them, and let them know that I am always here for them, that they are special and loved. My reward?? D6's class did a special gift for the parents at the end of the year. It is a silhouette of our child with things that the child told their teacher about themselves. the last line on D6's says "I am special because my mommy says I am." Keep letting them know they are special.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 01:41 PM
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 01:45 PM
Ditto^
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 01:52 PM
Yeah, I hear you, Puppy.
Some of the guys and I -- @AlexEN, @Coach, @Thinker -- have been thinking about / planning for a line of greeting cards for people in our situations -- "awkward moments" greeting cards (recall the convos we had up and down the threads, we fellas, about what to do re: Mother's Day).
I have another project in mind, though I don't have the technical wherewithal or the chops to do it.
A 7-minute video. Uploaded to all the "how to get a great divorce" and "what to do if you're thinking about divorce" and "easy divorce 1-2-3" and assorted other bullsh*t websites.
Children. Ages 3 to 17. (18s are adults). Simple lighting. Simple backdrop. Close shot, full face. Interviewer (off-screen): Is there something you want people to know about what's it like when your parents get divorced?
And let it ride.
It could be called, "Out of the mouths of babes." Distribute it through church groups, counseling centers, state family clinics, etc. etc., for free or for a small donation to some worthy charity of (our) (the producer's) choosing -- battered women's shelters, Al-Anon, whatever.
Some of the guys and I -- @AlexEN, @Coach, @Thinker -- have been thinking about / planning for a line of greeting cards for people in our situations -- "awkward moments" greeting cards (recall the convos we had up and down the threads, we fellas, about what to do re: Mother's Day).
I have another project in mind, though I don't have the technical wherewithal or the chops to do it.
A 7-minute video. Uploaded to all the "how to get a great divorce" and "what to do if you're thinking about divorce" and "easy divorce 1-2-3" and assorted other bullsh*t websites.
Children. Ages 3 to 17. (18s are adults). Simple lighting. Simple backdrop. Close shot, full face. Interviewer (off-screen): Is there something you want people to know about what's it like when your parents get divorced?
And let it ride.
It could be called, "Out of the mouths of babes." Distribute it through church groups, counseling centers, state family clinics, etc. etc., for free or for a small donation to some worthy charity of (our) (the producer's) choosing -- battered women's shelters, Al-Anon, whatever.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 02:09 PM
Have you seen these?
http://www.postcardsfromsplitsville.com/
The video might have even more impact.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
http://www.postcardsfromsplitsville.com/
The video might have even more impact.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 02:14 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I have another project in mind, though I don't have the technical wherewithal or the chops to do it.
A 7-minute video. Uploaded to all the "how to get a great divorce" and "what to do if you're thinking about divorce" and "easy divorce 1-2-3" and assorted other bullsh*t websites.
Children. Ages 3 to 17. (18s are adults). Simple lighting. Simple backdrop. Close shot, full face. Interviewer (off-screen): Is there something you want people to know about what's it like when your parents get divorced?
And let it ride.
It could be called, "Out of the mouths of babes." Distribute it through church groups, counseling centers, state family clinics, etc. etc., for free or for a small donation to some worthy charity of (our) (the producer's) choosing -- battered women's shelters, Al-Anon, whatever.
This is a great idea... Like showing drunk drivers what really happens...
When I read your post above, I thought: "If only the WAS really knew what the children thought..."
I don't know that subjecting kids to having to express their thoughts on camera wouldn't be too hard to watch, but having a parent tell the story as a VO with pictures of the kids in question might be nearly as powerful... The emotion in the parent's voice recounting the child's words would speak volumes.
To your list of causes, how 'bout the psychological professionals who will have to work with those very children over the course of time?
The best thing about something like this is that it could be part of a larger "preventative medicine" program... DAMs like me might never have gotten where we are had we had "we only known"...
Because once we've reached the stage many of us are at, it is, unfortunately, still the longest of long shots... But, if we had seen a tape like the one you describe, read Chapman, read Gottman, etc., we may have been able to avoid the mistakes we made (which is not the same as taking the blame, but acknowledging our role in getting to this Place).
Preventative medicine early on in one's marriage (on another thread I told how I now give a package of those books anonymously at weddings for just that reason) or at the FIRST signs of trouble might keep thousands from ever having to come here...
And even if the numbers are far less than that, if just a few children can be prevented from ever having to endure this type of suffering, it would be a worthwhile program.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 02:15 PM
Originally Posted By: StrgMarvelousWmn
[quote=SmileysPerson]
Saturday night S cried, "I need hugs from Mommy now!" at bedtime.
Last night, after I put them to bed upon their return, D6 asked me to stay with the door closed. She hid under the blanket and told me she can't cry, she can't cry, she can't cry. Why?
Because it will be even more sadder if I do. My heart is in the dumps. It isn't even red or pink anymore, it's grey. Why can't you and Mommy ever stop arguing? Why can't you be married? That's how it's supposed to be for kids, don't you get that?
As DH pulls out of the driveway every night, S3 gets out of bed to watch him leave and then D17 and I fight for the next hour to get him back to bed.
When I asked D6 of she minded, she told me "No, mommy. S3 and I miss Daddy and we hug each other to go back to sleep."
Quote:
Saturday night S cried, "I need hugs from Mommy now!" at bedtime.
Last night, after I put them to bed upon their return, D6 asked me to stay with the door closed. She hid under the blanket and told me she can't cry, she can't cry, she can't cry. Why?
Because it will be even more sadder if I do. My heart is in the dumps. It isn't even red or pink anymore, it's grey. Why can't you and Mommy ever stop arguing? Why can't you be married? That's how it's supposed to be for kids, don't you get that?
As DH pulls out of the driveway every night, S3 gets out of bed to watch him leave and then D17 and I fight for the next hour to get him back to bed.
When I asked D6 of she minded, she told me "No, mommy. S3 and I miss Daddy and we hug each other to go back to sleep."
These stories absolutely kill me...
It's hard enough to watch how my 20-month-old clings to Daddy like he'll disappear if she lets go. My heart broke yesterday. Usually she's a mommy's girl, but when Daddy is around she won't let go.
I wonder if he gets an ego boost out of it or if he gets it. Someday he'll get it.
He rushes her off to bed before he goes home, so that he doesn't have to see her watching from the window.
It doesn't have to be this hard.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 02:18 PM
Originally Posted By: StrgMarvelousWmn
Have you seen these?
http://www.postcardsfromsplitsville.com/
The video might have even more impact.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
http://www.postcardsfromsplitsville.com/
The video might have even more impact.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
SMV,
What a site... Seems like it is trying to help children cope with a D that has already happened... If, per above, parents Only Knew enough before the pain was triggered, maybe it would be triggered less often...
-AlexEN
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 02:21 PM
Alex--
maybe family counselors should send parents to sites like that when they first walk in the office talking about divorce. It might make them think of the potential impact. But then again, the WAS is so fond of saying how THEIR kids will handle it better, so would it really matter? I am sure that is how all the parents of those kids justified it to themselves.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
maybe family counselors should send parents to sites like that when they first walk in the office talking about divorce. It might make them think of the potential impact. But then again, the WAS is so fond of saying how THEIR kids will handle it better, so would it really matter? I am sure that is how all the parents of those kids justified it to themselves.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 02:22 PM
Originally Posted By: StrgMarvelousWmn
How sad......
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 02:35 PM
SMV,
As others have pointed out, not all counselors are pro-marriage, although I understand more are becoming, so that might be a tough nut to crack. Many are "neutral" and don't want to be seen as taking sides, too; in many instances, that could polarize a couple from the beginning. And, as you point out, it may already be too late at that point...
How about we all send out an anonymous "care package" with the 2 or 3 books we most wish we'd read to a handful of young couples? May not prevent any of them from that "first walk", but if it prevents just one couple from taking that Walk, something good can come from our pain and one less child might ever have to bear the even greater pain they would otherwise endure...
-AlexEN
As others have pointed out, not all counselors are pro-marriage, although I understand more are becoming, so that might be a tough nut to crack. Many are "neutral" and don't want to be seen as taking sides, too; in many instances, that could polarize a couple from the beginning. And, as you point out, it may already be too late at that point...
How about we all send out an anonymous "care package" with the 2 or 3 books we most wish we'd read to a handful of young couples? May not prevent any of them from that "first walk", but if it prevents just one couple from taking that Walk, something good can come from our pain and one less child might ever have to bear the even greater pain they would otherwise endure...
-AlexEN
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 03:28 PM
I know what you mean about the books Alex. i have attended three weddings in the past two weeks. All three couples received copies of For Couples Only--a set of books to help them understand how the opposite sex thinks and reacts to situations. Two have already read them and have thanked me for giving them, as they feel it will give them a head start on a great marriage.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 03:37 PM
There are lots of books and websites that will help explain to anyone, WAS or LBS or extended family, whomever, exactly what devasation is caused by divorce to children.
And there are lots of books and websites that will help them move through this process, as best as can be expected.
Smiley - you are on mark in thinking of doing such a thing, but it has been done. Its just that no one knows about them until they need them. No one knows to look at them BEFORE things get to critical points. You yourself didn't look into how to prevent a divorce before the critical point either, correct?
This is why I still advocate that marriage classes should be required in college, and it should include this type of material, showing people that if they do choose to get married, have children, and then get divorced, here's what the sad faces of your kids will look like in the future. Want to avoid this? Learn what makes marriages last BEFORE you choose your mate.
Sorry you are going through all this crap, SP. I hope you have family and friends surrounding you and if you don't, please call them up. Ask your mom or sister to come have a slumber party for a week or two. You need support.
DQ
And there are lots of books and websites that will help them move through this process, as best as can be expected.
Smiley - you are on mark in thinking of doing such a thing, but it has been done. Its just that no one knows about them until they need them. No one knows to look at them BEFORE things get to critical points. You yourself didn't look into how to prevent a divorce before the critical point either, correct?
This is why I still advocate that marriage classes should be required in college, and it should include this type of material, showing people that if they do choose to get married, have children, and then get divorced, here's what the sad faces of your kids will look like in the future. Want to avoid this? Learn what makes marriages last BEFORE you choose your mate.
Sorry you are going through all this crap, SP. I hope you have family and friends surrounding you and if you don't, please call them up. Ask your mom or sister to come have a slumber party for a week or two. You need support.
DQ
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 03:45 PM
Ok. SMW. Those postcards. Crawling. Under. Rock. Now. Must. Fish.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 03:49 PM
Just brutally painful stuff. I don't even know what to say except that in my case, the tears and the talk have subsided a lot...the confusion and turmoil, I'm not sure when and if this will ever make sense to the kiddos.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 04:01 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Yeah, I hear you, Puppy.
Some of the guys and I -- @AlexEN, @Coach, @Thinker -- have been thinking about / planning for a line of greeting cards for people in our situations -- "awkward moments" greeting cards (recall the convos we had up and down the threads, we fellas, about what to do re: Mother's Day).
I have another project in mind, though I don't have the technical wherewithal or the chops to do it.
A 7-minute video. Uploaded to all the "how to get a great divorce" and "what to do if you're thinking about divorce" and "easy divorce 1-2-3" and assorted other bullsh*t websites.
Children. Ages 3 to 17. (18s are adults). Simple lighting. Simple backdrop. Close shot, full face. Interviewer (off-screen): Is there something you want people to know about what's it like when your parents get divorced?
And let it ride.
It could be called, "Out of the mouths of babes." Distribute it through church groups, counseling centers, state family clinics, etc. etc., for free or for a small donation to some worthy charity of (our) (the producer's) choosing -- battered women's shelters, Al-Anon, whatever.
Some of the guys and I -- @AlexEN, @Coach, @Thinker -- have been thinking about / planning for a line of greeting cards for people in our situations -- "awkward moments" greeting cards (recall the convos we had up and down the threads, we fellas, about what to do re: Mother's Day).
I have another project in mind, though I don't have the technical wherewithal or the chops to do it.
A 7-minute video. Uploaded to all the "how to get a great divorce" and "what to do if you're thinking about divorce" and "easy divorce 1-2-3" and assorted other bullsh*t websites.
Children. Ages 3 to 17. (18s are adults). Simple lighting. Simple backdrop. Close shot, full face. Interviewer (off-screen): Is there something you want people to know about what's it like when your parents get divorced?
And let it ride.
It could be called, "Out of the mouths of babes." Distribute it through church groups, counseling centers, state family clinics, etc. etc., for free or for a small donation to some worthy charity of (our) (the producer's) choosing -- battered women's shelters, Al-Anon, whatever.
As they say in those Guiness commercials, "BRILLIANT!"
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 04:14 PM
Funny you should suggest that Alex. About a year ago, NoCodeBlue, one of the posters on this site, gave a few marriage self-help books as a wedding present to a young couple. He was later ridiculed by his W and MIL and it was generally agreed upon by her family that this was a gross transgression. Very sad. It seems good intentions are always punished.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 04:36 PM
Ughh...brutal sad stuff.
Don't even talk to me about pro-divorce counselors. I thought our few visits to a MC were about recovery but they were nothing but an exit interview.
Marriage books as a wedding gift are a good idea. "Men are from Mars..." and "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch come to mind.
Don't even talk to me about pro-divorce counselors. I thought our few visits to a MC were about recovery but they were nothing but an exit interview.
Marriage books as a wedding gift are a good idea. "Men are from Mars..." and "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch come to mind.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 04:41 PM
O Dog, I just gave Marriage Fitness to my cousin for his wedding. They promised to read it together.
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 04:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Sara
Funny you should suggest that Alex. About a year ago, NoCodeBlue, one of the posters on this site, gave a few marriage self-help books as a wedding present to a young couple. He was later ridiculed by his W and MIL and it was generally agreed upon by her family that this was a gross transgression. Very sad. It seems good intentions are always punished.
That's why I do it anonymously -- with a note saying -- As in love as you are today, these are not books to read now, but as your marriage grows. Love evolves. These are books I wish I'd read during the first few years of my marriage as they would have made the following years even better. So, put these aside and read a chapter from each each time you argue... Here's to hoping they take a long time to read...
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 05:08 PM
Hey SP,
Just read through your thread and learned a lot about your sitch...I'm sorry it's such a tough situation. I came to this site when my second marriage started falling apart - have an S2 with STBX and an S12 from my first marriage.
My first D was amicable - civil - and mutual - and yet it still tore into me for many years. I had many heartbreaking moments and often worried that I would somehow have less of a connection with my son than if I had stayed with his mother (despite knowing, as she did, that we just were not right for one another). Slowly I started to see just how much of an opportunity I had been given to become a better father - a better man - and I embraced it as best I could - that started ten years ago...cut to a couple weeks ago, and my S12's mom hands me a copy of my thesis from college - inside is a short essay my S12 had to write in school last year - the topic - the person I admire most in my life...
I read the first line, "The person I admire most in my life is my father" - and my eyes watered more than they are right now...My S12's words reminded me that, despite all the pain and the confusion he might have gone through as a child - because I did the work, because I decided not to allow myself to become like my father (who was verbally and physically abusive) - I had managed to be a positive force in his life...while I might have accomplished that had I stayed with his mother, the fact is that I got there on my own...and that's precious to me - and it's also something I keep in mind when dealing with my STBX - and how different this demise is from my first marriage.
I've gotten into the habit of looking at these darkest moments of our lives for the seed of opportunity they might offer us...this time around...it seems like everything fell apart so that I might finally find myself and no longer try to expiate the shortcoming of my own father...and the (failed/unrealistic) expectations I was born into...
You're doing an amazing job with your children and for yourself.
-Carlos
Just read through your thread and learned a lot about your sitch...I'm sorry it's such a tough situation. I came to this site when my second marriage started falling apart - have an S2 with STBX and an S12 from my first marriage.
My first D was amicable - civil - and mutual - and yet it still tore into me for many years. I had many heartbreaking moments and often worried that I would somehow have less of a connection with my son than if I had stayed with his mother (despite knowing, as she did, that we just were not right for one another). Slowly I started to see just how much of an opportunity I had been given to become a better father - a better man - and I embraced it as best I could - that started ten years ago...cut to a couple weeks ago, and my S12's mom hands me a copy of my thesis from college - inside is a short essay my S12 had to write in school last year - the topic - the person I admire most in my life...
I read the first line, "The person I admire most in my life is my father" - and my eyes watered more than they are right now...My S12's words reminded me that, despite all the pain and the confusion he might have gone through as a child - because I did the work, because I decided not to allow myself to become like my father (who was verbally and physically abusive) - I had managed to be a positive force in his life...while I might have accomplished that had I stayed with his mother, the fact is that I got there on my own...and that's precious to me - and it's also something I keep in mind when dealing with my STBX - and how different this demise is from my first marriage.
I've gotten into the habit of looking at these darkest moments of our lives for the seed of opportunity they might offer us...this time around...it seems like everything fell apart so that I might finally find myself and no longer try to expiate the shortcoming of my own father...and the (failed/unrealistic) expectations I was born into...
You're doing an amazing job with your children and for yourself.
-Carlos
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 05:32 PM
Hey guys..
A cautionary tale should not focus on the effects on the children. Once a spouse has crossed the line in their mind to leave, their focus changes. "It will be tough, but the kids will be fine." No amount of statistics or heart wrenching video will change that. After all, it's biased and their reality. It's common knowledge that kids would rather have their parents together than apart... period.
It should be marketed to adult partners who pull inward emotionally, distance themselves, give in, take things for granted, act out. The most effective way to get folks to listen to quitting smoking is not listing all the bad things that will happen to them in the future, but how it impacts their present. Smokers will not have the energy to play with their children. They will not have the endurance. They won't be able to be the parents they want to be. Physical prowess is diminished puff by puff.
Goodness, in retrospect I wish I'd had the wherewithal to continue working on my marriage, even as he brushed me aside. We both tried in ways that were ineffective. We both gave up in different ways, opting for the passive route of it being more about the children, accepting separate roles and divisions.
We were required to go to marriage classes before the wedding, its emphasis on building better communication skills. All I remember is thinking the couple with us would never make it. Like teenagers, people in love feel like its immortal.
The sad thing is that marriages break because of the actions of two people. And they break, not because of the kids or affairs but because primary issues are not faced, dealt with. The continuing commitment and hard work is shirked.
So, we're in this quandry by our own making. We start hurting our children the minute our marriages are taken for granted, second fiddle. Where we no longer respect or show respect to the one we pledged our troth.
Tough stuff.
If you're lucky you find a place like this, with the focus on the positive, what you CAN do to improve yourself as a person rather than wallow in growing anger, bitterness and self entitlement. And guess what.. all the maturing that stopped in the jungle of self defensiveness, codependence, turning away starts again.. helping you grow, become the person you're meant to be.
As long as we blame our spouses for the loss of the marriage, we're trapped.
*hugs*
A cautionary tale should not focus on the effects on the children. Once a spouse has crossed the line in their mind to leave, their focus changes. "It will be tough, but the kids will be fine." No amount of statistics or heart wrenching video will change that. After all, it's biased and their reality. It's common knowledge that kids would rather have their parents together than apart... period.
It should be marketed to adult partners who pull inward emotionally, distance themselves, give in, take things for granted, act out. The most effective way to get folks to listen to quitting smoking is not listing all the bad things that will happen to them in the future, but how it impacts their present. Smokers will not have the energy to play with their children. They will not have the endurance. They won't be able to be the parents they want to be. Physical prowess is diminished puff by puff.
Goodness, in retrospect I wish I'd had the wherewithal to continue working on my marriage, even as he brushed me aside. We both tried in ways that were ineffective. We both gave up in different ways, opting for the passive route of it being more about the children, accepting separate roles and divisions.
We were required to go to marriage classes before the wedding, its emphasis on building better communication skills. All I remember is thinking the couple with us would never make it. Like teenagers, people in love feel like its immortal.
The sad thing is that marriages break because of the actions of two people. And they break, not because of the kids or affairs but because primary issues are not faced, dealt with. The continuing commitment and hard work is shirked.
So, we're in this quandry by our own making. We start hurting our children the minute our marriages are taken for granted, second fiddle. Where we no longer respect or show respect to the one we pledged our troth.
Tough stuff.
If you're lucky you find a place like this, with the focus on the positive, what you CAN do to improve yourself as a person rather than wallow in growing anger, bitterness and self entitlement. And guess what.. all the maturing that stopped in the jungle of self defensiveness, codependence, turning away starts again.. helping you grow, become the person you're meant to be.
As long as we blame our spouses for the loss of the marriage, we're trapped.
*hugs*
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 05:41 PM
Beautifully written, Gypsy. It is a difficult truth.
Lucky
Lucky
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 08:29 PM
Ok Gypsy, I'm confused on what it means to "try".
I was very clear about my role right up to the day I moved out. And it showed. We were getting closer. But I have no idea what the role is during separation. What is "to try" when sep'd?
I've got it that DB is about making a better me no matter what happens. I've changed a lot of things in myself, got more active, got a life, and W noticed it and mentioned it on several occasions. In fact before I moved out she even said "You've changed so much and we could call this off. But I'm afraid things would go back to the way they were."
But how or when do we work on the R when it's already been declared dead? When we don't make small talk anymore. When we've been told not to pursue. Not to ask questions. When we're supposed to work on our own life.
I show my "friendiness" when she's around. And I know I'm being watched as Coach says.
But what am I missing? How do we open it back up again to begin the work?
I was very clear about my role right up to the day I moved out. And it showed. We were getting closer. But I have no idea what the role is during separation. What is "to try" when sep'd?
I've got it that DB is about making a better me no matter what happens. I've changed a lot of things in myself, got more active, got a life, and W noticed it and mentioned it on several occasions. In fact before I moved out she even said "You've changed so much and we could call this off. But I'm afraid things would go back to the way they were."
But how or when do we work on the R when it's already been declared dead? When we don't make small talk anymore. When we've been told not to pursue. Not to ask questions. When we're supposed to work on our own life.
I show my "friendiness" when she's around. And I know I'm being watched as Coach says.
But what am I missing? How do we open it back up again to begin the work?
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 09:17 PM
O'dog,
Originally Posted By: orangedog
But I have no idea what the role is during separation. What is "to try" when sep'd?
Originally Posted By: orangedog
But how or when do we work on the R when it's already been declared dead? When we don't make small talk anymore. When we've been told not to pursue. Not to ask questions. When we're supposed to work on our own life.
Originally Posted By: orangedog
But what am I missing? How do we open it back up again to begin the work?
Sorry to be chiming in with no answer, just to say this is exactly what I struggle with now with a WAW who feels it all withered, doesn't want to work on it ("just leave me alone") and no arguing, no animosity, no nothing except a weary "fait accompli" attitude on her part (I think; I'm mind-reading, here).
Anyway, fwiw, my questions exactly...
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 10:32 PM
Hey orangedog and Gardener..
I know what a spouse abruptly leaving and immediately filing for divorce feels like. I know what it feels like to have a husband's total focus on eliminating any and all interactions with me. I know what it's like listening to a judge give a pep talk about being good parents as he legally ends the marriage. When my spouse left the house, he made a clean break for himself.
A separation with positive feedback is something I never experienced.
In my opinion, over time DBing becomes more about the individual. As personal growth increases, so does awareness and seeking out better, healthier ways of approaching things. DB becomes one of many tools in my interpersonal arsenal.
DBing is the saving grace, the life raft at the eleventh hour. It gives a positive path to follow during those painful evolving months, gives direction.
At some point relationship talks have to start again.. usually when you've learned positive boundaries, how to avoid the "push the buttons - get too emotional" loop, become grounded, accepted the good, the bad and imperfect in all people, yourself included.
Orangepooch.. I think it's great that your wife stated "You've changed so much and we could call this off. But I'm afraid things would go back to the way they were."
Well.. duh. It's great you've improved, but what about her growth? And it will go back to the way it was if both people aren't committed to investing in their relationship. With her it's still fear talking. Have you read "How to change your relationship without talking"? That seems like an interesting read.. along with all the other staples ("His Needs Her Needs", "The Five Love Languages" etc).
How do you work on the relationship when it's already declared dead?
Howzabout.. respecting yourself, respecting her decision.. and letting go. Okay, so it's incredibly difficult. The less you pressure, try to control another person, the more control you have. It's like my son who was adamant about not asking to use the car if he had to say he respected me, that he'd find another way to get to work, etc. I almost started to beg him ("How can you say no to what I'm offering?") Then I realized.. why was I thinking of pleading for him to use a privilege? Instead I validated what he said and supported his decision. Bingo.. it was all in his court... and I was free from my own insecurities. A day and a half later we resolved it in a positive manner.
A relationship doesn't move forward if you're always looking back, nor can you grow. With the growth comes renewed confidence, energy and awareness. You can listen but not fix, support but not take over. It's respect in its purest sense.
Or so it seems to me.
*hugs*
I know what a spouse abruptly leaving and immediately filing for divorce feels like. I know what it feels like to have a husband's total focus on eliminating any and all interactions with me. I know what it's like listening to a judge give a pep talk about being good parents as he legally ends the marriage. When my spouse left the house, he made a clean break for himself.
A separation with positive feedback is something I never experienced.
In my opinion, over time DBing becomes more about the individual. As personal growth increases, so does awareness and seeking out better, healthier ways of approaching things. DB becomes one of many tools in my interpersonal arsenal.
DBing is the saving grace, the life raft at the eleventh hour. It gives a positive path to follow during those painful evolving months, gives direction.
At some point relationship talks have to start again.. usually when you've learned positive boundaries, how to avoid the "push the buttons - get too emotional" loop, become grounded, accepted the good, the bad and imperfect in all people, yourself included.
Orangepooch.. I think it's great that your wife stated "You've changed so much and we could call this off. But I'm afraid things would go back to the way they were."
Well.. duh. It's great you've improved, but what about her growth? And it will go back to the way it was if both people aren't committed to investing in their relationship. With her it's still fear talking. Have you read "How to change your relationship without talking"? That seems like an interesting read.. along with all the other staples ("His Needs Her Needs", "The Five Love Languages" etc).
How do you work on the relationship when it's already declared dead?
Howzabout.. respecting yourself, respecting her decision.. and letting go. Okay, so it's incredibly difficult. The less you pressure, try to control another person, the more control you have. It's like my son who was adamant about not asking to use the car if he had to say he respected me, that he'd find another way to get to work, etc. I almost started to beg him ("How can you say no to what I'm offering?") Then I realized.. why was I thinking of pleading for him to use a privilege? Instead I validated what he said and supported his decision. Bingo.. it was all in his court... and I was free from my own insecurities. A day and a half later we resolved it in a positive manner.
A relationship doesn't move forward if you're always looking back, nor can you grow. With the growth comes renewed confidence, energy and awareness. You can listen but not fix, support but not take over. It's respect in its purest sense.
Or so it seems to me.
*hugs*
Re: And There It Goes - 06/29/09 10:45 PM
Thanks, Gypsy.
I am doing all (most?) of those things. All the space in the world. Respect. Zero pressure.The questions just rang true as stubborn things that rattle around in my head at times.
Re: "How do we open it back up again to begin the work?" I do know the answer: Be the kind of man to whom she may some day say, "Let's open it back up again and do the work."
Thanks, again.
I am doing all (most?) of those things. All the space in the world. Respect. Zero pressure.The questions just rang true as stubborn things that rattle around in my head at times.
Re: "How do we open it back up again to begin the work?" I do know the answer: Be the kind of man to whom she may some day say, "Let's open it back up again and do the work."
Thanks, again.
The Note - 06/30/09 01:04 PM
Give me a ticket for an aeroplane;
I ain't got time to take a fast train.
Oh, the lonely days are gone, I'm goin' home.
My baby just wrote me a letter.
Not. So. Much.
What is it about a letter, a note? Because you can hold it in your hands, because s/he held it in her/his hands, you struggle mightily not to vest it with magickal properties. But there you are. You struggle, and you fail.
It has been sitting there, The Note. Totem-like. Irradiated with mojo-sapping WAW-energy. Faintly glowing, humming, like the flying saucer in some 1950s aliens-from-outer-space epic.
I was vexed that she left it as she moved out, vexed to the point of Angry, Angry to the point of ENRAGED:
How Dare She?!!!
Getting in the Last Word like that! And after -- after! -- the Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon!
What nerve!
Ohhhhhhh, I see! I'm supposed to read this, but when it was her turn, her chance to read some words, she ignored them for daysweeksmonths and then they disappeared! But noooooo! Sheeeeeeee gets to leave a Note! Well Excuuuuuuuuuse Meeee! Pfaw!
You see, I'd written her a Letter on the business trip that ended with my Triumphal Return to the familial manse, the Kissing Of The Kids, the Distributing Of The "Whatchabringmedaddy?" Gifts, and....wha'? huh?...the Offering Of The Cheek? The Mandatory Return Peck? The "Good Trip?" inquiry-that-isn't-really-an-inquiry?
And, four hours later, with the lone B-Eleventeen, time-over-target, adjust for wind drift and velocity.
Bomb's Away.
I'd written her a Letter that ended up inside a Valentine's Day card, a Letter that asked her to MC, that told her I knew it wasn't working, that I wasn't working, but that I thought it could, that I was committed to Making It Work. You see, my therapy was beginning to pay off, and we'd Skyped, the kids and I, during that trip, me in the daylight and they in the night, and during those Skypes I could "see" that Something Was Off, that the Milk of Human Kindness was a day or so past its expiration date.
Well, well, well. If only I'd known. WAW'd decided, you see. She'd done her Harry S. Truman, just 2 weeks before. So when I was stupidly Skyping home with my stupid "I love you's" and "how are you's" and "you look great you's", she was Already Divorced.
So there we are, fellow humans:
Me with that sleepy travel funk wafting thither and yon, redolent of Major Airline Economy Class, JFK, and the Toddler Stank of Little Lord Fauntleroy from 12-E, He Whose Feet Never Stopped Kicking even while he was projectile-vomiting onto my head and neck.
And Herself, WAW, who has Lost That Loving Feeling and stands, legs akimbo and arms crossed, with That Look upon her.
And it is High Noon, or High Ten P-Em at any rate, mere hours remaining before St. Valentine's Day.
And what a day it will prove to be; me playing the role of Bugs Morans' boys at the CMC Cartage Co., WAW taking the part of Alfonse Hisself.
There I stand, in the kitchen, one side of the serving counter with WAW on t'other, and I say something -- something trivial, now long forgotten -- but Something in that something obviously contains the Go Code for WAW's mission. Purity of Essence. Plan R.
I excuse myself to the Gentleman's Chamber of Solitude (AKA, the bathroom, the WC, the loo) for a bit of reading. When I re-emerge, WAW is over the target. She drops The Bomb.
Know what's funny? I'm smiling at the time. Of course I am. I'm one of Smiley's persons. What is it Bogart says in "Casablanca?" Oh yeah -- "The wild finish. A guy standing on a station platform in the rain with a comical look on his face because his insides have been kicked out."
I float there, mid-air, Wile E. Coyote-like, knowing there's no there there below me but hoping that if I don't notice it then I won't fall, bweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh - Boom!
So there it is, sports fans. The Note.
What to do with it? I've thought about just tossing it in the trash and then, bwah-ha-ha!, telling her so should she ask ("Hmm? Oh, that. Yeah, I tossed it."). Burning it in a ritual sacrifice to the gods of change. Setting it adrift in the sea. Carefully placing it in an envelope, sealing it, time-capsule-like, to be opened in 10 years. Polishing my cordovans with it.
Ah, Smiley's Person, would that you were such a guy. But yer not, are ya? Nope -- I'm busted, you got my number, dead to rights.
So for a while there I just moved it around a bit, pushed it here and there on the desk, set it down over there, no, over here, wait, maybe on that shelf, no, how about in this drawer, oh, perhaps in that box....
Frightened, you see? Frightened that I would find within it something that would make me sympathize, empathize, compassionitize -- and why do I want that? I'm angry -- angry, dammit! -- because she moved out, because the kids are weeping, because of the Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon, because and because and because.
And frightened -- I mean let's face it, let's be honest, let's call it what it is -- frightened that there won't be a Ray Of Hope within it. That it won't say, "Come get me." That it won't say, "I'll be waiting." That it will say, "Goodbye and fare-thee-well."
(Oh I'm not that detached. I'm not that uncaring. I'm not that uninterested in a positive -- dreamy positive, not positive-for-me-because-I'm-a-better-person-for-having-DB'd positive -- outcome.)
For 72 hours I hemmed and hawed, hawed and hemmed, kreuz und quer, hin und her, ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank?
And, finally, a few hours ago, I read it. It didn't take long. WAW's handwriting is large and her words are few. I don't know how to take it, so I'm taking it as a paean. As a farewell. No mind-reading ("oh, but look where she says!"). Well, okay. Mind-reading. But pretending not to mind-read. Pretending to pretend it has no meaning.
----------------------------
Dear Smiley's Person --
I am not eloquent with language the way you are, and my computer is packed so I won't have an opportunity to edit this.
I don't know how this happened, and it really doesn't matter now. We are too far down this dark path to turn around now. I had thought that if we lived separately, we might be able to slowly rebuild our relationship. I understand that you don't want or need that, and I accept it.
If I had looked into the future and seen this ending for us, I wouldn't have believed it. I also would have fought like hell to prevent it. But it seemed to sneak up on us with little warning.
I know you will go on to have a great life and great love. But for me, you were and will always be the one great love of my life.
You may not believe it, but I wish you all the happiness you can handle. I will miss you forever.
/s/ Herself
----------------------------
The Note. A Note. A note.
But a note of what? Sadness? Remorse? Regret? Betrayal? Hope? Acceptance?
Of what, of what, of what?
And does it matter, of what? Of what does it matter, of what?
What does it matter?
She said, "Goodbye."
Goodbye, stranger; it's been nice.
Hope you find your paradise.
Tried to see your point-of-view,
Hope your dreams will all come true.
I ain't got time to take a fast train.
Oh, the lonely days are gone, I'm goin' home.
My baby just wrote me a letter.
Not. So. Much.
What is it about a letter, a note? Because you can hold it in your hands, because s/he held it in her/his hands, you struggle mightily not to vest it with magickal properties. But there you are. You struggle, and you fail.
It has been sitting there, The Note. Totem-like. Irradiated with mojo-sapping WAW-energy. Faintly glowing, humming, like the flying saucer in some 1950s aliens-from-outer-space epic.
I was vexed that she left it as she moved out, vexed to the point of Angry, Angry to the point of ENRAGED:
How Dare She?!!!
Getting in the Last Word like that! And after -- after! -- the Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon!
What nerve!
Ohhhhhhh, I see! I'm supposed to read this, but when it was her turn, her chance to read some words, she ignored them for daysweeksmonths and then they disappeared! But noooooo! Sheeeeeeee gets to leave a Note! Well Excuuuuuuuuuse Meeee! Pfaw!
You see, I'd written her a Letter on the business trip that ended with my Triumphal Return to the familial manse, the Kissing Of The Kids, the Distributing Of The "Whatchabringmedaddy?" Gifts, and....wha'? huh?...the Offering Of The Cheek? The Mandatory Return Peck? The "Good Trip?" inquiry-that-isn't-really-an-inquiry?
And, four hours later, with the lone B-Eleventeen, time-over-target, adjust for wind drift and velocity.
Bomb's Away.
I'd written her a Letter that ended up inside a Valentine's Day card, a Letter that asked her to MC, that told her I knew it wasn't working, that I wasn't working, but that I thought it could, that I was committed to Making It Work. You see, my therapy was beginning to pay off, and we'd Skyped, the kids and I, during that trip, me in the daylight and they in the night, and during those Skypes I could "see" that Something Was Off, that the Milk of Human Kindness was a day or so past its expiration date.
Well, well, well. If only I'd known. WAW'd decided, you see. She'd done her Harry S. Truman, just 2 weeks before. So when I was stupidly Skyping home with my stupid "I love you's" and "how are you's" and "you look great you's", she was Already Divorced.
So there we are, fellow humans:
Me with that sleepy travel funk wafting thither and yon, redolent of Major Airline Economy Class, JFK, and the Toddler Stank of Little Lord Fauntleroy from 12-E, He Whose Feet Never Stopped Kicking even while he was projectile-vomiting onto my head and neck.
And Herself, WAW, who has Lost That Loving Feeling and stands, legs akimbo and arms crossed, with That Look upon her.
And it is High Noon, or High Ten P-Em at any rate, mere hours remaining before St. Valentine's Day.
And what a day it will prove to be; me playing the role of Bugs Morans' boys at the CMC Cartage Co., WAW taking the part of Alfonse Hisself.
There I stand, in the kitchen, one side of the serving counter with WAW on t'other, and I say something -- something trivial, now long forgotten -- but Something in that something obviously contains the Go Code for WAW's mission. Purity of Essence. Plan R.
I excuse myself to the Gentleman's Chamber of Solitude (AKA, the bathroom, the WC, the loo) for a bit of reading. When I re-emerge, WAW is over the target. She drops The Bomb.
Know what's funny? I'm smiling at the time. Of course I am. I'm one of Smiley's persons. What is it Bogart says in "Casablanca?" Oh yeah -- "The wild finish. A guy standing on a station platform in the rain with a comical look on his face because his insides have been kicked out."
I float there, mid-air, Wile E. Coyote-like, knowing there's no there there below me but hoping that if I don't notice it then I won't fall, bweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh - Boom!
So there it is, sports fans. The Note.
What to do with it? I've thought about just tossing it in the trash and then, bwah-ha-ha!, telling her so should she ask ("Hmm? Oh, that. Yeah, I tossed it."). Burning it in a ritual sacrifice to the gods of change. Setting it adrift in the sea. Carefully placing it in an envelope, sealing it, time-capsule-like, to be opened in 10 years. Polishing my cordovans with it.
Ah, Smiley's Person, would that you were such a guy. But yer not, are ya? Nope -- I'm busted, you got my number, dead to rights.
So for a while there I just moved it around a bit, pushed it here and there on the desk, set it down over there, no, over here, wait, maybe on that shelf, no, how about in this drawer, oh, perhaps in that box....
Frightened, you see? Frightened that I would find within it something that would make me sympathize, empathize, compassionitize -- and why do I want that? I'm angry -- angry, dammit! -- because she moved out, because the kids are weeping, because of the Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon, because and because and because.
And frightened -- I mean let's face it, let's be honest, let's call it what it is -- frightened that there won't be a Ray Of Hope within it. That it won't say, "Come get me." That it won't say, "I'll be waiting." That it will say, "Goodbye and fare-thee-well."
(Oh I'm not that detached. I'm not that uncaring. I'm not that uninterested in a positive -- dreamy positive, not positive-for-me-because-I'm-a-better-person-for-having-DB'd positive -- outcome.)
For 72 hours I hemmed and hawed, hawed and hemmed, kreuz und quer, hin und her, ist das nicht ein Schnitzelbank?
And, finally, a few hours ago, I read it. It didn't take long. WAW's handwriting is large and her words are few. I don't know how to take it, so I'm taking it as a paean. As a farewell. No mind-reading ("oh, but look where she says!"). Well, okay. Mind-reading. But pretending not to mind-read. Pretending to pretend it has no meaning.
----------------------------
Dear Smiley's Person --
I am not eloquent with language the way you are, and my computer is packed so I won't have an opportunity to edit this.
I don't know how this happened, and it really doesn't matter now. We are too far down this dark path to turn around now. I had thought that if we lived separately, we might be able to slowly rebuild our relationship. I understand that you don't want or need that, and I accept it.
If I had looked into the future and seen this ending for us, I wouldn't have believed it. I also would have fought like hell to prevent it. But it seemed to sneak up on us with little warning.
I know you will go on to have a great life and great love. But for me, you were and will always be the one great love of my life.
You may not believe it, but I wish you all the happiness you can handle. I will miss you forever.
/s/ Herself
----------------------------
The Note. A Note. A note.
But a note of what? Sadness? Remorse? Regret? Betrayal? Hope? Acceptance?
Of what, of what, of what?
And does it matter, of what? Of what does it matter, of what?
What does it matter?
She said, "Goodbye."
Goodbye, stranger; it's been nice.
Hope you find your paradise.
Tried to see your point-of-view,
Hope your dreams will all come true.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 01:15 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
[i]Dear Smiley's Person --
. . .
I don't know how this happened, and it really doesn't matter now. We are too far down this dark path to turn around now. I had thought that if we lived separately, we might be able to slowly rebuild our relationship. I understand that you don't want or need that, and I accept it.
If I had looked into the future and seen this ending for us, I wouldn't have believed it. I also would have fought like hell to prevent it. But it seemed to sneak up on us with little warning.
Oh, bull$hit, lady. You didn't do a damned thing, except to run away from it all, hell-bent.
Puppy
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 01:27 PM
I feel for you SP...Tonight I get to have a "talk" with W about the splitting of our almost 20 years together. I fully expect her to say something like you got in you note...Right now no idea how I'll react...angry, like wtf who said I don't want to be M...sad, I know this is hard for me...or indifferent, it is what it is.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 01:32 PM
Hey Smile Guy..
My heart goes out to you.
One day at a time.
*hugs*
My heart goes out to you.
One day at a time.
*hugs*
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 02:43 PM
I posted this on my thread, but it's just as pertinent here, as The Note and The Letter... actually, the note and the letter... seem to have had related ghost-writers...
The Letter. Though much longer, not unlike The Note, in either tone or context.
The problem with these things is that they practically beg for mind-reading. Essence of cheese down otherwise cheeseless tunnels.
But your The Letter, like my The Note, reminds me again why everything I know about life I learned from "Joe Versus the Volcano:"
Nobody knows anything, Joe. We'll take this leap, and we'll see. We'll jump, and we'll see. That's life, right?
Funny, not ha-ha funny, but I read this before you wrote about The Note and wasn't quite sure what you were saying... As you or @Thinker pointed out once before, it's incredibly interesting how the various threads around here weave together.
But, now that I have read The Note, I see that the similarities are chilling... and I mean that in the worst sense of the word...
Yes, tone and context not at all dissimilar... and the Words... weren't we talking about that yesterday? I suppose they each took actions to write... but, I discern only the same words as do you: Good-bye Stranger.
Puppy's comments about the use of the passive voice leaped into mind as I read The Note... Deflecting any responsibility or the fact that We Make Choices. Not all of this Just Happened...
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
The Letter. Though much longer, not unlike The Note, in either tone or context.
The problem with these things is that they practically beg for mind-reading. Essence of cheese down otherwise cheeseless tunnels.
But your The Letter, like my The Note, reminds me again why everything I know about life I learned from "Joe Versus the Volcano:"
Nobody knows anything, Joe. We'll take this leap, and we'll see. We'll jump, and we'll see. That's life, right?
Funny, not ha-ha funny, but I read this before you wrote about The Note and wasn't quite sure what you were saying... As you or @Thinker pointed out once before, it's incredibly interesting how the various threads around here weave together.
But, now that I have read The Note, I see that the similarities are chilling... and I mean that in the worst sense of the word...
Yes, tone and context not at all dissimilar... and the Words... weren't we talking about that yesterday? I suppose they each took actions to write... but, I discern only the same words as do you: Good-bye Stranger.
Puppy's comments about the use of the passive voice leaped into mind as I read The Note... Deflecting any responsibility or the fact that We Make Choices. Not all of this Just Happened...
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 02:54 PM
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Puppy's comments about the use of the passive voice leaped into mind as I read The Note... Deflecting any responsibility or the fact that We Make Choices. Not all of this Just Happened...
Yep. It's the ol' "mistakes were made" defense, rather than "I made a mistake."
or,
Instead of saying "I'm truly sorry I did thus-and-such," you say "I regret if anyone was offended by my actions," almost always followed by some sort of "that certainly wasn't my intention" plea by the Offender to be judged by their intentions rather than their actual results -- a subtle difference that puts all the onus on YOU instead of on ME.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 03:36 PM
Actions and deeds, my friends; actions and deeds.
"The war was started."
"I started the war."
Which would you respect more, even if from the mouth of the most heinous of despots?
He asked. Rhetorically. Knowing full well the answer.
"The war was started."
"I started the war."
Which would you respect more, even if from the mouth of the most heinous of despots?
He asked. Rhetorically. Knowing full well the answer.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 03:43 PM
That f'ing note.
(To Alex) That f'ing letter.
We're here for you, boys, men, soldiers...
(To Alex) That f'ing letter.
We're here for you, boys, men, soldiers...
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 03:47 PM
Apart from the foregoing, what about The Note? I feel like some response -- or, if not "response," then acknowledgment or reflection, is in order.
I can think of the smart-a** version by myself. I'm wondering about more thoughtful reflections. Quite apart from the dodging of direct responsibility, what do we / can we learn from such missives? Gypsy? Greek?
I can think of the smart-a** version by myself. I'm wondering about more thoughtful reflections. Quite apart from the dodging of direct responsibility, what do we / can we learn from such missives? Gypsy? Greek?
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 03:53 PM
My suggestion is to bang out a note that spells it all out. Say what you have to say (anger or whatever else is bubbling inside of you) and then delete it and never send it. I have done this many times (and had I sent them I might have wound up in jail, lol!) but it does give you some sort of satisfaction just to say the words and see them in print. I cant say why exactly but for me, it was very theraputic.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 03:56 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I understand that you don't want or need that, and I accept it.
SP - This is the part that really bothers me. She would have to be blind, deaf, and probably, mute, to not see that you "WANTED" to rebuild something.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 04:02 PM
How about?:
I didn't start the war. The war was started by you...
For some reason, I'm interested in the non-Smart-A$$ answers to SP's question, too...
I didn't start the war. The war was started by you...
For some reason, I'm interested in the non-Smart-A$$ answers to SP's question, too...
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 04:03 PM
I personally would only respond with a terse text or e-mail:
"Just wanted you to know that I got your letter.
-SP"
"If you can't say something nice,
Don't say anything at all."
-- Thumper, circa 1942
"Just wanted you to know that I got your letter.
-SP"
"If you can't say something nice,
Don't say anything at all."
-- Thumper, circa 1942
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 04:13 PM
mindblank,
I understand that you don't want or need that, and I accept it.
SP - This is the part that really bothers me. She would have to be blind, deaf, and probably, mute, to not see that you "WANTED" to rebuild something.
I didn't want to do this, but I can't help myself... The comment you pulled out of The Note struck me as Mrs. SP's equivalent of Mrs. A's...
These are things I also feel, and I am thrilled that you are looking forward with optimism.
...from The Letter.
The mind-reading cuts both ways, I'm doing my best not to do so, but it certainly feels like there's a some mind-reading and projecting in the written thoughts of these two WAS...
Originally Posted By: mindblank
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I understand that you don't want or need that, and I accept it.
SP - This is the part that really bothers me. She would have to be blind, deaf, and probably, mute, to not see that you "WANTED" to rebuild something.
I didn't want to do this, but I can't help myself... The comment you pulled out of The Note struck me as Mrs. SP's equivalent of Mrs. A's...
These are things I also feel, and I am thrilled that you are looking forward with optimism.
...from The Letter.
The mind-reading cuts both ways, I'm doing my best not to do so, but it certainly feels like there's a some mind-reading and projecting in the written thoughts of these two WAS...
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 04:16 PM
I've got to admit, it is beyond belief. She is blaming you for the finality of the situation. You, who have expressed optimism to her pessimism time after time.
But it is the same as the letter. Look at me, I'm crying. I have feelings. You were my great love, I cry, therefore I am! "Je pleure, donc je suis!"
But it is the same as the letter. Look at me, I'm crying. I have feelings. You were my great love, I cry, therefore I am! "Je pleure, donc je suis!"
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 04:30 PM
Alex:
OMG. I was just looking for your thread to read your letter. Saw the same line.
Agreed on all levels.
We're with you.
OMG. I was just looking for your thread to read your letter. Saw the same line.
Agreed on all levels.
We're with you.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 05:42 PM
Odd, this.
WAW just sent me an e-mail. Forwarding me an email from her Oldest Childhood Friend.
OCF was there at "the moment" when WAW decided to arm the Bomb.
OCF was the first one WAW contacted after dropping said Bomb. The first one WAW informed that she was now free to pursue "other interests LOL" -- viz, the late and unlamented, the ghost of OM's past, Signore Schmuckatelli. So OCF is what you might call the Charter Member of Team WAW.
Now let me say at the outset I have mixed feelings -- moral reservations, he said, shockingly, Himself being a member in good standing of the Loyal Order of Heathen -- about the idea of forwarding other people's e-mail around.
It is only in the interest of exploration and self-improvement that I have here in these threads posted communications from WAW -- and then only because of the anonymity. But OCF "knows" me, and I her, and I wonder how she would feel if she knew I was reading her words -- though I expect they have been selectively edited by WAW, "sanitized for my protection."
OCF had, at WAW's apparent request (one must infer from context), informed Mutual High School Friend of WAW's departure from the familial manse and the looming D.
OCF had also, and here I must guess (mind-read, sorry Gypsy) also at WAW's apparent request, solicited feedback from MHSF on Retrouvaille, which MHSF attended in the wake of the outing of Mr. MHSF's long-term A. Which feedback, having been solicited, was then forwarded to WAW.
Who, in turn, forwarded it to me without comment save for an "FYI."
For my information? Had I requested such information? Boy-o-boy, that Ol' Doc Ambien is a tricky sum-bum indeed, because I have no such recollection. Indeed, it was I who had forwarded WAW the Retrouvaille URL after she mentioned, several weeks ago, "some Catholic thing" that MHSF and Wayward had attended.
Ah, that must be it. Perhaps WAW is just closing the correspondence loop. She is nothing if not business-correct.
So I replied in a Smiley's Person-like way -- that is, in a way guaranteed to irritate Gypsy and mindblank and some of our other colleagues.
Herself, however, did not take the bait. She replied to the reply, seriously, and seemingly intrigued by the fact that, in the midst of serious financial challenges, Mr. and Mrs. MHSF are "pulling together in the stress" which, WAW concludes, "is an endorsement" of the program.
Hmmmmmm.
This requires some thought. And some mojo. And some distance and calm and quiet.
WAW just sent me an e-mail. Forwarding me an email from her Oldest Childhood Friend.
OCF was there at "the moment" when WAW decided to arm the Bomb.
OCF was the first one WAW contacted after dropping said Bomb. The first one WAW informed that she was now free to pursue "other interests LOL" -- viz, the late and unlamented, the ghost of OM's past, Signore Schmuckatelli. So OCF is what you might call the Charter Member of Team WAW.
Now let me say at the outset I have mixed feelings -- moral reservations, he said, shockingly, Himself being a member in good standing of the Loyal Order of Heathen -- about the idea of forwarding other people's e-mail around.
It is only in the interest of exploration and self-improvement that I have here in these threads posted communications from WAW -- and then only because of the anonymity. But OCF "knows" me, and I her, and I wonder how she would feel if she knew I was reading her words -- though I expect they have been selectively edited by WAW, "sanitized for my protection."
OCF had, at WAW's apparent request (one must infer from context), informed Mutual High School Friend of WAW's departure from the familial manse and the looming D.
OCF had also, and here I must guess (mind-read, sorry Gypsy) also at WAW's apparent request, solicited feedback from MHSF on Retrouvaille, which MHSF attended in the wake of the outing of Mr. MHSF's long-term A. Which feedback, having been solicited, was then forwarded to WAW.
Who, in turn, forwarded it to me without comment save for an "FYI."
For my information? Had I requested such information? Boy-o-boy, that Ol' Doc Ambien is a tricky sum-bum indeed, because I have no such recollection. Indeed, it was I who had forwarded WAW the Retrouvaille URL after she mentioned, several weeks ago, "some Catholic thing" that MHSF and Wayward had attended.
Ah, that must be it. Perhaps WAW is just closing the correspondence loop. She is nothing if not business-correct.
So I replied in a Smiley's Person-like way -- that is, in a way guaranteed to irritate Gypsy and mindblank and some of our other colleagues.
Herself, however, did not take the bait. She replied to the reply, seriously, and seemingly intrigued by the fact that, in the midst of serious financial challenges, Mr. and Mrs. MHSF are "pulling together in the stress" which, WAW concludes, "is an endorsement" of the program.
Hmmmmmm.
This requires some thought. And some mojo. And some distance and calm and quiet.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 05:47 PM
Quote:
Dear Smiley's Person --
I am not eloquent with language the way you are, and my computer is packed so I won't have an opportunity to edit this.
I don't know how this happened, and it really doesn't matter now. We are too far down this dark path to turn around now. I had thought that if we lived separately, we might be able to slowly rebuild our relationship. I understand that you don't want or need that, and I accept it.
If I had looked into the future and seen this ending for us, I wouldn't have believed it. I also would have fought like hell to prevent it. But it seemed to sneak up on us with little warning.
I know you will go on to have a great life and great love. But for me, you were and will always be the one great love of my life.
You may not believe it, but I wish you all the happiness you can handle. I will miss you forever.
/s/ Herself
I am not eloquent with language the way you are, and my computer is packed so I won't have an opportunity to edit this.
I don't know how this happened, and it really doesn't matter now. We are too far down this dark path to turn around now. I had thought that if we lived separately, we might be able to slowly rebuild our relationship. I understand that you don't want or need that, and I accept it.
If I had looked into the future and seen this ending for us, I wouldn't have believed it. I also would have fought like hell to prevent it. But it seemed to sneak up on us with little warning.
I know you will go on to have a great life and great love. But for me, you were and will always be the one great love of my life.
You may not believe it, but I wish you all the happiness you can handle. I will miss you forever.
/s/ Herself
My .02 is that you should not respond to this note. It reads to me like a disingenuous pity party, SP. Or...what Puppy said.
"I don't know how this happened, and it really doesn't matter now." Like hell it doesn't matter. Seems to me, if you're going to bust up a family, it would matter to you how things came about.
"too far down this dark path" Woe is me. And by the way, she's wrong.
"If I had looked into the future and seen this ending for us" She did. She looked in the future and planned this exactly...without fighting like hell to "prevent" it.
As for the "one great love of my life"...Make up your mind, woman.
I am impatient when women do silly girl stuff...and this is silly girl stuff. It's a fluffy accounting of a grave matter. Does it really mean anything?
There is nothing to respond to here in my opinion. There is nothing of real substance that deserves a response. The (good?) news for you is that she really sounds UNSURE of herself. A woman with purpose and clarity would have written a purposeful and clear goodbye. She couldn't.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 05:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Greek
It's a fluffy accounting of a grave matter.
Precisely.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 06:07 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Herself, however, did not take the bait. She replied to the reply, seriously, and seemingly intrigued by the fact that, in the midst of serious financial challenges, Mr. and Mrs. MHSF are "pulling together in the stress" which, WAW concludes, "is an endorsement" of the program.
Hahaha Ummmm Myself I adore the words of SP, and truly appreciate the wit, humor, and style delivered. We'd have a heck of a banter in RL. I just can't do justice (writing) like you do...
I think a very SP like deliverance of something similar to...
"So, Mrs. SP, when are we going? Love SP PS: Don't forget to pack lingerie."
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 06:15 PM
Hey Smiley Guy..
I had written quite the flowing missive about the note. Waited. Looked at it. Tried to figure if I was doing too much of a Pollyanna spin. Then deleted it all and left hugs.
What do I think? Well.. first of all, sometimes I'm afraid I'm a cranky ole angry woman rattling off the same doom and gloom, twirling 2x4's where ever I go. That's on my bad days and I try to stay away from the boards.
It reminds me of a 'note' I recently received from a younger Brazilian man who was putting down additional wood flooring in my bedroom. I'm pretty sociable so I'm laughing and talking.. being friendly but not flirting. At one point he said I should go out, date.. "oh no no.. not me!" was my eeking reply. "Why.. you are so young and beautiful!" Huh? And just how old do you think I am? With those Latin eyes he perused me and pondered before making a judgment, "42"... I was stupefied.. since I'm just over a decade older. I enjoyed the compliment and let it go at that.
When his work was done, I stayed out of my room for a day or so to avoid the fumes. When I did go back in on the drop cloth over the sink was a note.. "I Love You".
What the...? It rattled me.. but at the same time was a little creepy. I figured maybe an "I love you" meant "you're a great person" since English is his second language (learned by ear). I kept the note around for a day or so, face down and eventually threw it away.
Your note, my note... just words on a piece of paper. Words that were left for you/me to find and decipher... then deal with the emotions.. the 'ball in my court'.
So.. though it has pretty words that may express hope or blame.. it's a piece of paper. I tossed mine not wanting to walk in that minefield.
She wrote it to feel better about herself. The fact she expressed something may indicate a teenie tiny seed is starting to take root. This is her chimichanga. The FYI email about Retrouvaille.. was your wife endorsing it? This is her learning to walk.. because you're not rescuing.
Let her come to you, take the initiative. She knows where to find you.
Tell me when to make a banner that says, "I'm going to Retrouvaille!"
*hugs*
I had written quite the flowing missive about the note. Waited. Looked at it. Tried to figure if I was doing too much of a Pollyanna spin. Then deleted it all and left hugs.
What do I think? Well.. first of all, sometimes I'm afraid I'm a cranky ole angry woman rattling off the same doom and gloom, twirling 2x4's where ever I go. That's on my bad days and I try to stay away from the boards.
It reminds me of a 'note' I recently received from a younger Brazilian man who was putting down additional wood flooring in my bedroom. I'm pretty sociable so I'm laughing and talking.. being friendly but not flirting. At one point he said I should go out, date.. "oh no no.. not me!" was my eeking reply. "Why.. you are so young and beautiful!" Huh? And just how old do you think I am? With those Latin eyes he perused me and pondered before making a judgment, "42"... I was stupefied.. since I'm just over a decade older. I enjoyed the compliment and let it go at that.
When his work was done, I stayed out of my room for a day or so to avoid the fumes. When I did go back in on the drop cloth over the sink was a note.. "I Love You".
What the...? It rattled me.. but at the same time was a little creepy. I figured maybe an "I love you" meant "you're a great person" since English is his second language (learned by ear). I kept the note around for a day or so, face down and eventually threw it away.
Your note, my note... just words on a piece of paper. Words that were left for you/me to find and decipher... then deal with the emotions.. the 'ball in my court'.
So.. though it has pretty words that may express hope or blame.. it's a piece of paper. I tossed mine not wanting to walk in that minefield.
She wrote it to feel better about herself. The fact she expressed something may indicate a teenie tiny seed is starting to take root. This is her chimichanga. The FYI email about Retrouvaille.. was your wife endorsing it? This is her learning to walk.. because you're not rescuing.
Let her come to you, take the initiative. She knows where to find you.
Tell me when to make a banner that says, "I'm going to Retrouvaille!"
*hugs*
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 06:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Gypsy
Well.. first of all, sometimes I'm afraid I'm a cranky ole angry woman rattling off the same doom and gloom, twirling 2x4's where ever I go. That's on my bad days and I try to stay away from the boards.
Oh, so that's what I should be doing.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 06:23 PM
@Greek:
Truth be told, I had actually thought of including these points -- though not quite so baldly, perhaps -- in my response. Especially the "too far down this dark path" business.
The thing about dark paths? They're dark. You don't know what's at the end of 'em.
Quote:
"I don't know how this happened, and it really doesn't matter now." Like hell it doesn't matter. Seems to me, if you're going to bust up a family, it would matter to you how things came about.
"too far down this dark path" Woe is me. And by the way, she's wrong.
"If I had looked into the future and seen this ending for us" She did. She looked in the future and planned this exactly...without fighting like hell to "prevent" it.
"too far down this dark path" Woe is me. And by the way, she's wrong.
"If I had looked into the future and seen this ending for us" She did. She looked in the future and planned this exactly...without fighting like hell to "prevent" it.
Truth be told, I had actually thought of including these points -- though not quite so baldly, perhaps -- in my response. Especially the "too far down this dark path" business.
The thing about dark paths? They're dark. You don't know what's at the end of 'em.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 06:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: Gypsy
Well.. first of all, sometimes I'm afraid I'm a cranky ole angry woman rattling off the same doom and gloom, twirling 2x4's where ever I go. That's on my bad days and I try to stay away from the boards.
Oh, so that's what I should be doing.
And, Gypsy, you do it so well...
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 06:23 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
She replied to the reply, seriously, and seemingly intrigued by the fact that, in the midst of serious financial challenges, Mr. and Mrs. MHSF are "pulling together in the stress" which, WAW concludes, "is an endorsement" of the program.
Hmmmmmm.
Hmmmmmm.
Hmmmmm indeed!
Her note and her interest Retrouvaille are polar opposites and my Orange brain would say the latter trumps. Why would she care at all about Retrouvaille if she were done?
How often do marriages fail because the relationship is bad vs because either side has given up on the hope to fix it?
Currently in my Orange sitch, it seems time to get something out there along the lines, "if you ever want to do the work to fix the R then there are tools and people who can help." She need to know there's hope.
During our lunch, W asked me "How is WomanFriend?" in somewhat sarcastic voice (she thinks we've got something). She knows WomanFriend was having marriage troubles and facing some of the same issues we were. I told her I gave WomanFriend a good db pep talk, some books, and told her don't give up. She spent a vacation having some tough talks with H but things were beginning to turn around. They said ILY's and left the vacation happy. Wife was impressed. The implied answer was, "They can do it and we can too."
I don't know how to respond to that note (I'll leave that to Coach, Gypsy, et al) but it seems there's something in that Retrou email that deserves attention. Hope.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 07:08 PM
SP,
I would suggest you put the note back on the desk, or just leave it in a drawer...or wherever it sits now...
Some of the best advice I ever received from my T regarding any notes/email/written communications from my STBX was couched in a simple test: Is she asking you any questions? If she's not then there's no need to respond.
Of course, there are times when even a note without questions merits a response - as in matters concerning the children - but this note, her words, were not for you to puzzle and solve...they were for her to put to word something that troubled her....and let it stop there.
Mind reading seldom works, and note reading hardly seems to offer more promise of understanding.
If Retrouvaille is a possibility...I think it would be best to leave that up to her...and to continue doing what you have to do for you and your kids. Keep the focus on you - doing so reduces the number of variables you have to contend with every day - and also lessens the impact of dealing with someone that is in a state of constant flux - and inevitable inconsistency.
While you may have to live with the contradictions and inconsistencies that have been forced upon you by your sitch...she has to make her own decisions about what comes next...That said, one thing that does come through the note is that she's not happy...and feels unsettled in herself...perhaps the trick then, is to love someone enough to give them the space to feel safe in that state of being unsettled - safe enough for them to make a journey of it - toward some kind of resolve (regardless of the outcome) - rather than have it become a permanent place of conflict (which is where my STBX seems to reside).
It's quite something, this labyrinth, isn't it?
-carlos.
I would suggest you put the note back on the desk, or just leave it in a drawer...or wherever it sits now...
Some of the best advice I ever received from my T regarding any notes/email/written communications from my STBX was couched in a simple test: Is she asking you any questions? If she's not then there's no need to respond.
Of course, there are times when even a note without questions merits a response - as in matters concerning the children - but this note, her words, were not for you to puzzle and solve...they were for her to put to word something that troubled her....and let it stop there.
Mind reading seldom works, and note reading hardly seems to offer more promise of understanding.
If Retrouvaille is a possibility...I think it would be best to leave that up to her...and to continue doing what you have to do for you and your kids. Keep the focus on you - doing so reduces the number of variables you have to contend with every day - and also lessens the impact of dealing with someone that is in a state of constant flux - and inevitable inconsistency.
While you may have to live with the contradictions and inconsistencies that have been forced upon you by your sitch...she has to make her own decisions about what comes next...That said, one thing that does come through the note is that she's not happy...and feels unsettled in herself...perhaps the trick then, is to love someone enough to give them the space to feel safe in that state of being unsettled - safe enough for them to make a journey of it - toward some kind of resolve (regardless of the outcome) - rather than have it become a permanent place of conflict (which is where my STBX seems to reside).
It's quite something, this labyrinth, isn't it?
-carlos.
Re: The Note - 06/30/09 10:50 PM
I've done nothing so far in terms of an "official" response. Wrote a long, @AlexEN-long, @Thinker-long ( ) set of "reflections" on her comments. And I tweak those from time-to-time. But it's all in the Draft folder of the e-mail account I use for Spam -- online newspaper registrations, etc. etc. -- so there's no danger of an inadvertent "send."
I have to say, after my initial resentment -- that's really what it was, not "anger" -- that she wrote me a note, presumably expecting me to read it, when she wouldn't extend the same courtesy to me, I was remarkably balanced about the whole thing. I called her out where I disagreed with her evaluations, expanded on areas of commonality and overlap where I did agree with her evaluations, and the like.
A good exercise for two reasons. One, it helped me clarify that it is ambiguity I am cultivating -- relishing, in fact -- in terms of "what's next" (ambiguity for me, mind you -- this isn't about her) and, two, it helped validate (for me) some of the new evaluations and ways-of-living that I've embarked upon. When I hear myself saying things, so to speak, and they come out without my thinking, "Hmm, what would Beattie/Schnarch/Davis/etc. say in this situation, what note do I recall taking?," then I'm pretty confident I'm internalizing and living and not just doing self-help-book monkey-see, monkey-do.
) set of "reflections" on her comments. And I tweak those from time-to-time. But it's all in the Draft folder of the e-mail account I use for Spam -- online newspaper registrations, etc. etc. -- so there's no danger of an inadvertent "send."I have to say, after my initial resentment -- that's really what it was, not "anger" -- that she wrote me a note, presumably expecting me to read it, when she wouldn't extend the same courtesy to me, I was remarkably balanced about the whole thing. I called her out where I disagreed with her evaluations, expanded on areas of commonality and overlap where I did agree with her evaluations, and the like.
A good exercise for two reasons. One, it helped me clarify that it is ambiguity I am cultivating -- relishing, in fact -- in terms of "what's next" (ambiguity for me, mind you -- this isn't about her) and, two, it helped validate (for me) some of the new evaluations and ways-of-living that I've embarked upon. When I hear myself saying things, so to speak, and they come out without my thinking, "Hmm, what would Beattie/Schnarch/Davis/etc. say in this situation, what note do I recall taking?," then I'm pretty confident I'm internalizing and living and not just doing self-help-book monkey-see, monkey-do.
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 04:38 AM
Originally Posted By: Greek
My .02 is that you should not respond to this note.
SP, as I'm scrolling down and catching up I'm thinking (and saying out loud), "Don't answer, SP. Don't reply. Don't do it."
So I ditto Greek (minus her point-by-point eloquence).
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 12:13 PM
Yeah don't reply.
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 12:26 PM
If in the event I should decide to send WAW these "reflections," it won't be for quite a while.
Right now we're doing the pretend-I-don't-see-you, full-communication-by-electrons thing.
I mean, it hasn't even been a week since Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon.
Right now we're doing the pretend-I-don't-see-you, full-communication-by-electrons thing.
I mean, it hasn't even been a week since Batsh*t-Crazy-a-Thon.
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 03:49 PM
For a person vacillating wildly with emotional extremes (your wife), a person who is centered and doesn't change no matter what she throws at him (you) can be a strong stable influence who helps them find center. I think that if you continue to plod along on your path, she will find that comforting.
A caveat though, for if and when she does start sniffing around. Had a discussion last night with my H. Asked him if he thought there was any chance that men and women could get along if they didn't have sex. Answer was "no, not at all". Got to agree. Without sex, men and women cannot co-exist in the same house.
A caveat though, for if and when she does start sniffing around. Had a discussion last night with my H. Asked him if he thought there was any chance that men and women could get along if they didn't have sex. Answer was "no, not at all". Got to agree. Without sex, men and women cannot co-exist in the same house.
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 04:46 PM
You might be right, Sara. In any event, all I can do is Roll My Way.
As far as co-habiting and sex goes, during one of our getting-along periods I made it quite clear to WAW that, in the event she required such services I'd be more than happy to volunteer -- purely an act of altruism, mind you.
As far as co-habiting and sex goes, during one of our getting-along periods I made it quite clear to WAW that, in the event she required such services I'd be more than happy to volunteer -- purely an act of altruism, mind you.
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 04:50 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
As far as co-habiting and sex goes, during one of our getting-along periods I made it quite clear to WAW that, in the event she required such services I'd be more than happy to volunteer -- purely an act of altruism, mind you.
Good grief. *rolling my eyes*
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 05:26 PM
Note the wink.
In fact what I said to her was, "The gods know I need it, and it certainly wouldn't do you any harm." She laughed. So it was cool.
Though she didn't take me up on my generous offer......
In fact what I said to her was, "The gods know I need it, and it certainly wouldn't do you any harm." She laughed. So it was cool.
Though she didn't take me up on my generous offer......
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 05:28 PM
I think the Greek is rolling her eyes because it sounds like something I would have said. And meant it! You know glady take one for the team. Just for medicinal purposes only.
And meant it! You know glady take one for the team. Just for medicinal purposes only.
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 05:30 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Note the wink.
In fact what I said to her was, "The gods know I need it, and it certainly wouldn't do you any harm." She laughed. So it was cool.
Though she didn't take me up on my generous offer......
In fact what I said to her was, "The gods know I need it, and it certainly wouldn't do you any harm." She laughed. So it was cool.
Though she didn't take me up on my generous offer......
I said pretty much the same thing during talk with my W last night...got the same response...
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 05:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
I think the Greek is rolling her eyes because it sounds like something I would have said. And meant it! You know glady take one for the team. Just for medicinal purposes only.
And meant it! You know glady take one for the team. Just for medicinal purposes only. Bingo.
Wink noted.
Cheers ~~~
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 08:06 PM
Hmmmm. "Medicinal purposes." Yes. Yes.
Hey! Know what's irritating?
The rewriting.
I get this longish e-mail from WAW today about the Loh article -- "ya see this?" -- and when I say that FROM MY POV it sure sounds awfully familiar, it launches this virtual back-and-forth where the upshot is: What the fark am I talking about? I don't really hear her at all do I? Am I a mental case? That woman is NOTHING like WAW. Why, I must be getting divorced from some OTHER woman! That woman had her affair first! Not like WAW! Hers was second! See? This is the problem in a nutshell! It's always been the problem! I don't listen at all!
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm -- do I NOT have, like, 200 e-mails? Do I NOT have, like, a fairly good memory, especially of the past 18 weeks? Was I NOT in the room when you told me I "p*ssed it all away" and "threw it all away" and "abandoned" you and that Signore Schmuckatelli was just a "symptom" and not a "cause" and that "marriage is outmoded" and "19th-Century" and "too much work" and and and and and?
Or maybe this has allllllll been a dream. Maybe the S.S. Minnow never even left the harbor on that three-hour tour.....
Hey! Know what's irritating?
The rewriting.
I get this longish e-mail from WAW today about the Loh article -- "ya see this?" -- and when I say that FROM MY POV it sure sounds awfully familiar, it launches this virtual back-and-forth where the upshot is: What the fark am I talking about? I don't really hear her at all do I? Am I a mental case? That woman is NOTHING like WAW. Why, I must be getting divorced from some OTHER woman! That woman had her affair first! Not like WAW! Hers was second! See? This is the problem in a nutshell! It's always been the problem! I don't listen at all!
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm -- do I NOT have, like, 200 e-mails? Do I NOT have, like, a fairly good memory, especially of the past 18 weeks? Was I NOT in the room when you told me I "p*ssed it all away" and "threw it all away" and "abandoned" you and that Signore Schmuckatelli was just a "symptom" and not a "cause" and that "marriage is outmoded" and "19th-Century" and "too much work" and and and and and?
Or maybe this has allllllll been a dream. Maybe the S.S. Minnow never even left the harbor on that three-hour tour.....
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 08:10 PM
I have a feeling you ain't seen nothin' yet, SP.
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 08:27 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
and when I say that FROM MY POV it sure sounds awfully familiar, it launches this virtual back-and-forth
What were you hoping to accomplish with that? Sounds provocative to me, SP.
I read the article and for the record, I don't want to be lumped into Loh's characterization of a WAS either. Not completely off the mark, she misses more than she hits.
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 09:41 PM
Quote:
What were you hoping to accomplish with that? Sounds provocative to me, SP.
Not anything necessarily. Certainly not "hoping" for anything. Just sitting here sipping coffee. She asks what on its face was a perfectly reasonable question, which one might ask of any adult person with whom one was having a "relationship" of some sort -- equals, whatever -- "What did you think about this given our situation?" You know, wow -- we're talking like normal people do.
And I said, basically, "Well, it sounds pretty familiar."
I don't know that that's an accomplishment task so much as a simple response.
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 09:49 PM
"Attention to detail" moment, I guess. I didn't get that she asked what you thought. Sorry.
That article is a mine field for husbands. The men mentioned in that article are not invited to input. The men reading that article could learn something about Girl World.
"Talking like normal people do"...not yet, Smiley. It takes a while and lot of growing.
What were Mrs. SP's impressions of the Loh article?
That article is a mine field for husbands. The men mentioned in that article are not invited to input. The men reading that article could learn something about Girl World.
"Talking like normal people do"...not yet, Smiley. It takes a while and lot of growing.
What were Mrs. SP's impressions of the Loh article?
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 09:51 PM
See, I think it's a good sign that she didn't identify with Loh, although, she may have until you accused her of it, and then...just the opposite. But my point is, if she didn't identify with Loh, who says "it's too much work to choose to love the man I married" (do you think it was an arranged marriage, and therefore not her free choice?), then it says that your wife's values are at least on the right side of the fence. Ah, but she does enjoy a good mental wrassle, too bad she won't do a physical one in the sack.
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 10:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
I think the Greek is rolling her eyes because it sounds like something I would have said. And meant it! You know glady take one for the team. Just for medicinal purposes only.
And meant it! You know glady take one for the team. Just for medicinal purposes only. I am tempted to leave a note in my WAW's purse tonight when she goes out to eat with the neighbor lady, offering this service when she gets home if needed!
Re: The Note - 07/01/09 10:43 PM
SP - You still REALLY need to detach and let go...please hon, give it all a rest. Let your brain rest. Let your heart detach from her. Please.
Get back to your book.
DQ
Get back to your book.
DQ
Re: The Note - 07/02/09 03:17 AM
Quote:
SP - You still REALLY need to detach and let go...please hon, give it all a rest.
No comprendo.
@Greek:
Quote:
What were Mrs. SP's impressions of the Loh article?
She basically concurs with the sentiment re: the obsolescence of marriage in modern life. She "understands" how the H in that article could be "too much work." She exonerates herself from too-direct a comparison because her "distraction" (as she put it) came rather close to being "officially" post-Bomb, while Loh's seems to have been (and be) on-going and, in any case, Signore Schmuckatelli -- who is again sniffing around -- is referred to in the past tense. She "relates" to the Rachel with the high-paying job and the Mom-Dad H whom she now wishes to D.
But it's not like her. No. Nope. Huh-uh. No way. Not.
@Sara:
Quote:
she didn't identify with Loh, although, she may have until you accused her of it, and then...just the opposite.
Nail. Hit. On head.
Re: The Note - 07/02/09 05:21 AM
No comprendo?
Ok how about I put it this way...if you don't stop worrying so much about every breath she takes, every move she makes, and every word she says or writes, you will never get to the point of moving along in your own healing. You will remain stuck in the past, stuck on her, and you will develop an obsession with her and with the topic of divorce. You are already headed that direction.
Several pages back on batchit crazy day, you beseeched one of us to 2x4 you into getting back into your book. I have now given 2x4's to you TWICE on that topic and you have replied to neither.
Comprendo?
Or commando?
Your choice.
DQ
Ok how about I put it this way...if you don't stop worrying so much about every breath she takes, every move she makes, and every word she says or writes, you will never get to the point of moving along in your own healing. You will remain stuck in the past, stuck on her, and you will develop an obsession with her and with the topic of divorce. You are already headed that direction.
Several pages back on batchit crazy day, you beseeched one of us to 2x4 you into getting back into your book. I have now given 2x4's to you TWICE on that topic and you have replied to neither.
Comprendo?
Or commando?
Your choice.
DQ
Re: The Note - 07/02/09 05:26 AM
Hey Smile Guy..
It's a hard thing to do, but consider no longer giving your wife top billing, the prime real estate in your mind. What makes you happy? What works for you? What gives you satisfaction? Let those bubble up to help bring balance.
When she p*sses you off.. send her blessings, good thoughts. It's a gift you give to yourself. I'd do that during the divorce with ex and I always felt calmer afterwards. It helps short circuit the anger.
These helped me.. find what keeps you in a good place to make good decisions.
*hugs*
It's a hard thing to do, but consider no longer giving your wife top billing, the prime real estate in your mind. What makes you happy? What works for you? What gives you satisfaction? Let those bubble up to help bring balance.
When she p*sses you off.. send her blessings, good thoughts. It's a gift you give to yourself. I'd do that during the divorce with ex and I always felt calmer afterwards. It helps short circuit the anger.
These helped me.. find what keeps you in a good place to make good decisions.
*hugs*
Re: The Note - 07/02/09 05:40 AM
Quote:
you beseeched one of us to 2x4 you into getting back into your book. I have now given 2x4's to you TWICE on that topic and you have replied to neither.
Sorry -- didn't think it was on-topic or relevant. 5,000 more words done. Photograph rights licensed and paid for. Check dispatched to Imperial War Museum, London, for artwork.
Quote:
if you don't stop worrying so much about every breath she takes, every move she makes, and every word she says or writes,
Right sentiment, wrong verb -- "worrying." She annoys me. She sends me annoying communications. Then gets annoyed when I'm annoyed. Or for no reason at all.
Quote:
You will remain stuck in the past, stuck on her, and you will develop an obsession with her and with the topic of divorce. You are already headed that direction.
Actually I'm headed in quite a different direction, in the U.S., Canada, and Europe, between now and Labor Day. The future's so bright I gotta wear shades.
Re: The Note - 07/02/09 05:46 AM
OK I'll change my verb from "worrying" to the more accurate "obsessing". Sorry, dude. I'm callin' it like it is.
You are doing great by all accounts. You have come through a very horrible personal trauma. But what you may not realize is that recovery and the pursuit of it can become an obsession, and end up just keeping you tied to the thing you were trying to detach from.
Have a great vacation, but please do your damndest to stop thinking about her/it/this/sitch/db-ing/etc.
I know its hard. I've been there.
But try. When she/her/it/this/sitch/db-ing/etc comes up in your mind, just turn it away and go somewhere else. Try to do this at least 50% of the time.
Try.
DQ
You are doing great by all accounts. You have come through a very horrible personal trauma. But what you may not realize is that recovery and the pursuit of it can become an obsession, and end up just keeping you tied to the thing you were trying to detach from.
Have a great vacation, but please do your damndest to stop thinking about her/it/this/sitch/db-ing/etc.
I know its hard. I've been there.
But try. When she/her/it/this/sitch/db-ing/etc comes up in your mind, just turn it away and go somewhere else. Try to do this at least 50% of the time.
Try.
DQ
Re: The Note - 07/02/09 03:20 PM
I know this board is a great resource, it has been for many and many others, but I also think there is a point when one needs to detach from the whole DB thing. Nearly 1000 posts in 3 months is a lot of activity here. A few weeks of just going with the flow might be a good idea.
Re: The Note - 07/02/09 05:40 PM
Originally Posted By: JKL2009
I know this board is a great resource, it has been for many and many others, but I also think there is a point when one needs to detach from the whole DB thing. Nearly 1000 posts in 3 months is a lot of activity here. A few weeks of just going with the flow might be a good idea.
I agree. I often recommend people take 5 days or so off, and go back and RE-READ what others have posted to them in the past, and they are often able to gain new insights since they are usually now in a different place.
Whether or not you go back and do that, I do think the break is a great idea. I've done it myself, several times.
Puppy
Re: The Note - 07/02/09 05:49 PM
Smiley,
If you or I take a break remember I'm still wishing you the best, whatever that might be. Hang in there man.
OrangeDog.
If you or I take a break remember I'm still wishing you the best, whatever that might be. Hang in there man.
OrangeDog.
Re: The Note - 07/02/09 06:32 PM
Me too! That is the greatest thing about this, I feel there are others out there thinking of me and I know I get strength from that, even if I am not reading and posting here for a few days.
Re: The Note - 07/02/09 07:21 PM
In reference to lots of posting..
I remember being concerned that my only social activity was posting on this board during the height of my emotional chaos. A knowledgeable long time poster assured me that I was here because I needed to be here. And so it went.
My life would surge forward. I'd check on my friends, and keep developing more outside interests, challenging myself. I think it's an ebb and flow thing. I got tired of moaning about things that didn't change. Many well placed and repetitive 2x4's from friends here and in person helped me see what my true reality was. Getting away is sometimes the best thing to do. People who care about the 'total' support your choices.
And there are times I have nothing to offer. I was too raw to give to others. Each phase happens for a reason and helps you develop as needed. The one question to ask is.. Is this helping me be healthy? And always keep in mind.. Do no harm.
And the best.. the absolutely best.. is when life returns to normal.. when the problems are mundane, almost boring. It's fun to bitch without heartbreak.
To the best in all of us..
*hugs*
I remember being concerned that my only social activity was posting on this board during the height of my emotional chaos. A knowledgeable long time poster assured me that I was here because I needed to be here. And so it went.
My life would surge forward. I'd check on my friends, and keep developing more outside interests, challenging myself. I think it's an ebb and flow thing. I got tired of moaning about things that didn't change. Many well placed and repetitive 2x4's from friends here and in person helped me see what my true reality was. Getting away is sometimes the best thing to do. People who care about the 'total' support your choices.
And there are times I have nothing to offer. I was too raw to give to others. Each phase happens for a reason and helps you develop as needed. The one question to ask is.. Is this helping me be healthy? And always keep in mind.. Do no harm.
And the best.. the absolutely best.. is when life returns to normal.. when the problems are mundane, almost boring. It's fun to bitch without heartbreak.
To the best in all of us..
*hugs*
Re: The Note - 07/02/09 10:32 PM
Quote:
You will remain stuck in the past, stuck on her, and you will develop an obsession with her and with the topic of divorce. You are already headed that direction.
Quote:
Actually I'm headed in quite a different direction, in the U.S., Canada, and Europe, between now and Labor Day. The future's so bright I gotta wear shades.
Well, let me clarify. Though I am indeed going to those places -- starting next week for a week, then a month later, then 2 weeks after that -- the "new directions" referred to the problem of developing an "obsession" with WAW and being "stuck on her" and "in the past."
These "New Directions" have breasts.
Quote:
go somewhere else. Try to do this at least 50% of the time.
3.5 hours of tennis, an hour of post-tennis lunch, an hour of Kaffeklatch, and an incredibly irritating, vastly annoying, epically frustrating 1.25-hour telco with.......
.......
........ WAIT FOR IT! .....
........
....... the cable company today.
WAWtime approacheth, though, as I have to prepare the transfer bags for the kids, who are spending the weekend in their new "other" home.
Quote:
there are times I have nothing to offer.
This is actually something I realized a couple days ago. I'm sort of pooped-out from my normal pep. Probably, I imagine, because I've entered this odd parallel dimension -- I am traveling through another dimension, a dimension of time and space.
Re: The Note - 07/03/09 01:26 AM
IMO SP you are very fixated on your wife. You hang off every email, NOTE. phone call or text you recieve. You try to work out what it all means, implies...........
If you have found 'new directions' ( with breasts) then you are kidding yourself. This is nothing but a rebound relationship designed to help soothe your pain. Your kids dont need you to have this distraction and neither does the poor woman. Your W would resent you for it.
Your W has left you, you are not in control, of a part of your life which seems paramount to who you are !
If Signore smuck even disappeared off your wifes radar for 1 minute I would eat my hat ..... I say 1000/ 1 he is your wifes reason for not wanting to be married. Everything else is lies. she is convincing herself by telling you all the other garbage.
SP I have been there. I lied , I manipulated and I was smart.....until I got caught. LOL
Whether you admit it or not, I think we all know here that you are in real pain. You have been abandoned,your frightened, your futures stolen and your responsibilities as a parent doubled. Gotta hurt boyo.
If you have found 'new directions' ( with breasts) then you are kidding yourself. This is nothing but a rebound relationship designed to help soothe your pain. Your kids dont need you to have this distraction and neither does the poor woman. Your W would resent you for it.
Your W has left you, you are not in control, of a part of your life which seems paramount to who you are !
If Signore smuck even disappeared off your wifes radar for 1 minute I would eat my hat ..... I say 1000/ 1 he is your wifes reason for not wanting to be married. Everything else is lies. she is convincing herself by telling you all the other garbage.
SP I have been there. I lied , I manipulated and I was smart.....until I got caught. LOL
Whether you admit it or not, I think we all know here that you are in real pain. You have been abandoned,your frightened, your futures stolen and your responsibilities as a parent doubled. Gotta hurt boyo.
Re: The Note - 07/03/09 04:48 AM
seems to be a lot of effort being made to convince SP that the transition to physical separation and all the rest = confusing emotional rollarcoaster, WAS's antics sometimes get the best of us, times are tough right now. IMHO-I think he knows that. Just because he's not howling and exposing his underbelly on the board, doesn't mean that coping and re-grouping is not in progress.
As for 'new directions', I know this is a particularly dicey subject. Kinda trying to sort that out for myself. I am sure there are threads addressing this subject...will go search for one. Finding this point in the process perplexing, to say the least.
Regardless, hope you are well Smiley, on and off the board.
As for 'new directions', I know this is a particularly dicey subject. Kinda trying to sort that out for myself. I am sure there are threads addressing this subject...will go search for one. Finding this point in the process perplexing, to say the least.
Regardless, hope you are well Smiley, on and off the board.
Re: The Note - 07/03/09 07:10 AM
@Polly:
Well, yeah -- when someone "done" who is walking out of my (our) house leaves a note on my computer where it cannot possibly be overlooked and then sends a 1,000 word e-mail that basically rewrites every moment of the past 18 weeks -- yeah, I find that to be curious. But perhaps I'm odd that way.
Duh! Of course it is! That's the point! And each and every one of these very fine and kind-hearted angels of mercy is 100% aware of that. And these aren't "relationships," friend -- these are events.
Let's get down to cases. If I had an egg for every time I've had sex in the past, say, 3 years -- I still wouldn't have enough eggs for a full carton.
WAW's gone, Jack! And as far as I can tell, she ain't coming back! And if, at some point, she starts thinking maybe sorta possibly she should consider brooding on the possibility of coming back, I'm not sure what my response will be. Whatever it is, it will be based on my needs, goals, desires, and beliefs at that time -- and not on (a) who WAW used to be or (b) my fear that WAW will resent that I had a couple nights' naked fun. This was the woman who was running off for a weekend with Signore Schmuckatelli not 4 days after dropping the Bomb, remember?
And look -- I've been disrespected, shouted at, slapped; I've had a car door slammed on me (physically "on" me); I've had a full bottle of water thrown at my head; I've had holes smashed in my walls; I've been cursed, called every name in the book -- and some I had to look up; I've been told I'm repulsive, disgusting, and the scion of a family of "pure trash;" I've been told I ought to have been dumped 10 years ago; I've been told my actions are tantamount to rape; I've literally been spat upon.
Now there are the saintly among us -- @Coach, for example -- and more power to them. I sincerely respect and admire those who believe themselves to be married until they are not, who believe they will offend their gods if they stray, and so forth. Who put their spew raincoats on and revel in the fact that their WAS's have gone batsh*t-crazy.
But I'm not one of them. Grand Poobah and Head Mo-Fo In Charge of the Loyal Order of Heathen, First Class, Earthly Pleasures Division.
So......yeah. Some female friends offer up some pure, elemental, foundational human connection, each of them knowing full well the situation and the 0% probability that anything "more" than a great night will materialize -- and that's cool with them?
You don't have to call me twice to supper.
Distraction from what? From them? That's why they're happening on the road. And as far as the "poor" wom(e)n -- not so poor. More or less, "Hey, Smiley's Person old friend, you seem like a guy who needs a rewarding, emotionally safe yet cost-free, friendly roll-in-the-hay -- I'd be happy to oblige."
These are like the Florence Nightingales of the Wild Thing.
Oh, gosh. Well....Okay! Why does WAW's possible future resentment matter a Tinker's damn to me? And how do you square that with the argument that
(A) I'm not supposed to be "obsessed" with her, "stuck on" her, or "hanging off" her every word -- right? and (B) Helloooo the House! You'll "eat your hat," right polly, "If Signore smuck even disappeared off your wifes radar for 1 minute"?
So sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. Why would I want to turn down such kind offers as against the seemingly foolish hope -- which, apparently, I'm not supposed to have -- that there's some "there" there with WAW? Eh?
And, by the way, I've been told I'm not married -- it's a mere legal fiction. "Just paperwork," spake the WAW. I mean -- she's got a date next week! And bully for her! Gotta make hay while the sun shines.
When have I not admitted that? Or were all those comments from various and sundry that said "gosh I sure feel your pain" referring to my bad knees and arthritic hands?
@traveldane: "hope you are well Smiley, on and off the board"
Thanks, td! Better, though, to hope that I'm "good." (Rather out of practice, you might say.)
Quote:
You hang off every email, NOTE. phone call or text you recieve. You try to work out what it all means, implies
Well, yeah -- when someone "done" who is walking out of my (our) house leaves a note on my computer where it cannot possibly be overlooked and then sends a 1,000 word e-mail that basically rewrites every moment of the past 18 weeks -- yeah, I find that to be curious. But perhaps I'm odd that way.
Quote:
If you have found 'new directions' ( with breasts) then you are kidding yourself. This is nothing but a rebound relationship designed to help soothe your pain.
Duh! Of course it is! That's the point! And each and every one of these very fine and kind-hearted angels of mercy is 100% aware of that. And these aren't "relationships," friend -- these are events.
Let's get down to cases. If I had an egg for every time I've had sex in the past, say, 3 years -- I still wouldn't have enough eggs for a full carton.
WAW's gone, Jack! And as far as I can tell, she ain't coming back! And if, at some point, she starts thinking maybe sorta possibly she should consider brooding on the possibility of coming back, I'm not sure what my response will be. Whatever it is, it will be based on my needs, goals, desires, and beliefs at that time -- and not on (a) who WAW used to be or (b) my fear that WAW will resent that I had a couple nights' naked fun. This was the woman who was running off for a weekend with Signore Schmuckatelli not 4 days after dropping the Bomb, remember?
And look -- I've been disrespected, shouted at, slapped; I've had a car door slammed on me (physically "on" me); I've had a full bottle of water thrown at my head; I've had holes smashed in my walls; I've been cursed, called every name in the book -- and some I had to look up; I've been told I'm repulsive, disgusting, and the scion of a family of "pure trash;" I've been told I ought to have been dumped 10 years ago; I've been told my actions are tantamount to rape; I've literally been spat upon.
Now there are the saintly among us -- @Coach, for example -- and more power to them. I sincerely respect and admire those who believe themselves to be married until they are not, who believe they will offend their gods if they stray, and so forth. Who put their spew raincoats on and revel in the fact that their WAS's have gone batsh*t-crazy.
But I'm not one of them. Grand Poobah and Head Mo-Fo In Charge of the Loyal Order of Heathen, First Class, Earthly Pleasures Division.
So......yeah. Some female friends offer up some pure, elemental, foundational human connection, each of them knowing full well the situation and the 0% probability that anything "more" than a great night will materialize -- and that's cool with them?
You don't have to call me twice to supper.
Quote:
Your kids dont need you to have this distraction and neither does the poor woman.
Distraction from what? From them? That's why they're happening on the road. And as far as the "poor" wom(e)n -- not so poor. More or less, "Hey, Smiley's Person old friend, you seem like a guy who needs a rewarding, emotionally safe yet cost-free, friendly roll-in-the-hay -- I'd be happy to oblige."
These are like the Florence Nightingales of the Wild Thing.
Quote:
Your W would resent you for it.
Oh, gosh. Well....Okay! Why does WAW's possible future resentment matter a Tinker's damn to me? And how do you square that with the argument that
(A) I'm not supposed to be "obsessed" with her, "stuck on" her, or "hanging off" her every word -- right? and (B) Helloooo the House! You'll "eat your hat," right polly, "If Signore smuck even disappeared off your wifes radar for 1 minute"?
So sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. Why would I want to turn down such kind offers as against the seemingly foolish hope -- which, apparently, I'm not supposed to have -- that there's some "there" there with WAW? Eh?
And, by the way, I've been told I'm not married -- it's a mere legal fiction. "Just paperwork," spake the WAW. I mean -- she's got a date next week! And bully for her! Gotta make hay while the sun shines.
Quote:
Whether you admit it or not, I think we all know here that you are in real pain.
When have I not admitted that? Or were all those comments from various and sundry that said "gosh I sure feel your pain" referring to my bad knees and arthritic hands?
@traveldane: "hope you are well Smiley, on and off the board"
Thanks, td! Better, though, to hope that I'm "good." (Rather out of practice, you might say.)
Re: The Note - 07/03/09 07:54 AM
Damn straight Smiley!
What are you doing up at this hour anyway?
Heard from a close source that my W listed her status on FB as "Single" yet the papers haven't even been filed. ...and I'm supposed to feel guilt for even thinking about the notion? F that!
Two wrongs aren't supposed to make a right but when the R has been thrown in the trash, the D papers are on the way, and she's already living outside the M, then what am I supposed to think? (Gee, it's only been like six months of 0 for me - I haven't done anything yet but...).
What are you doing up at this hour anyway?
Heard from a close source that my W listed her status on FB as "Single" yet the papers haven't even been filed. ...and I'm supposed to feel guilt for even thinking about the notion? F that!
Two wrongs aren't supposed to make a right but when the R has been thrown in the trash, the D papers are on the way, and she's already living outside the M, then what am I supposed to think? (Gee, it's only been like six months of 0 for me - I haven't done anything yet but...).
Re: The Note - 07/03/09 07:58 AM
Damn, SP, I could have said the same thing about what my STBX said, did, accused me of, etc...
I was hit, yelled at, insulted, kicked, had things thrown at me, insulted in front of my children, called repulsive, disgusting...and on and on...I kept a list for a while, because I thought some of the stuff was actually pretty original and impressive...and through it all, at least for me, I still kept trying to figure out a way to "win" her back - to convince her that I had changed enough for her to want to come home...only after we separated - after she was out of the home - and then I moved into an apartment - did I start to see what was going on...and how the fact that I loved this person said something profound about me...and stuff I needed to work on in a deep and urgent way.
I'm not saying this is the case for you - that's up to you to find out - but it does strike me, again and again on this board, that just as much as our relationships brought the WAS to a point of crisis - it also presented us with that same crisis by proxy...and there was something in that person/process/crisis (which we sometimes call marriage) that compelled us to give ourselves up to that person enough - to make ourselves vulnerable to that person enough - that we knew, deep down inside, on some visceral level, that if we entangled ourselves enough in this person, it would expose our unfinished business.
...which...is exactly what annoyed me most about the Sandra Tsing Loh article...it was entirely devoid of any introspection - of any awareness (or at least admission) of the fact that her actions had their own historicity. Her article made it sound like divorce happens in a happy little vacuum - in which the conflicts between a couple merely indicate that they're incompatible - and she seems unable to fathom the idea that when people fall in love they are lured by something that attracts them to one another - and that this attraction has a history - and so - when that love falters - that history merits some re-inspection - not just revision.
There's a reason we love and marry people that harm us...for me...it was a misdirected attempt to try to understand why I had been abused as a child - by finding an abusive partner who (I see now) is almost identical to my father in her forms of abuse. I think it's also why this was the hardest relationship of my life to leave - even though it was by far the most unhealthy and the only emotionally abusive one I have ever had to endure.
Everything about my marriage was familiar to me in some way - in particular the behavior that I quoted from your post - and that stuff didn't happen to me just after she dropped the bomb...it was part of our years together from the beginning...but I never understood her actions as abusive because I am bigger, stronger, have a deep voice, and people have described me as intense...and she took full advantage of that disposition in me to turn everything onto me and try to make me crumble under the burden of her own, perfectly transferred insecurities. Which is to say...nothing she says or does is about you at all...despite the fact that it affects you so deeply.
I hope you don't mind my going on like this...it happens sometimes...and your post just brought up a lot of stuff that I have been working through for the last 14 months...
And...in the interest of full disclosure...I am in a new relationship now...even though my STBX flat out refuses to discuss the divorce with me...for me, my marriage is over.
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And look -- I've been disrespected, shouted at, slapped; I've had a car door slammed on me (physically "on" me); I've had a full bottle of water thrown at my head; I've had holes smashed in my walls; I've been cursed, called every name in the book -- and some I had to look up; I've been told I'm repulsive, disgusting, and the scion of a family of "pure trash;" I've been told I ought to have been dumped 10 years ago; I've been told my actions are tantamount to rape; I've literally been spat upon.
I was hit, yelled at, insulted, kicked, had things thrown at me, insulted in front of my children, called repulsive, disgusting...and on and on...I kept a list for a while, because I thought some of the stuff was actually pretty original and impressive...and through it all, at least for me, I still kept trying to figure out a way to "win" her back - to convince her that I had changed enough for her to want to come home...only after we separated - after she was out of the home - and then I moved into an apartment - did I start to see what was going on...and how the fact that I loved this person said something profound about me...and stuff I needed to work on in a deep and urgent way.
I'm not saying this is the case for you - that's up to you to find out - but it does strike me, again and again on this board, that just as much as our relationships brought the WAS to a point of crisis - it also presented us with that same crisis by proxy...and there was something in that person/process/crisis (which we sometimes call marriage) that compelled us to give ourselves up to that person enough - to make ourselves vulnerable to that person enough - that we knew, deep down inside, on some visceral level, that if we entangled ourselves enough in this person, it would expose our unfinished business.
...which...is exactly what annoyed me most about the Sandra Tsing Loh article...it was entirely devoid of any introspection - of any awareness (or at least admission) of the fact that her actions had their own historicity. Her article made it sound like divorce happens in a happy little vacuum - in which the conflicts between a couple merely indicate that they're incompatible - and she seems unable to fathom the idea that when people fall in love they are lured by something that attracts them to one another - and that this attraction has a history - and so - when that love falters - that history merits some re-inspection - not just revision.
There's a reason we love and marry people that harm us...for me...it was a misdirected attempt to try to understand why I had been abused as a child - by finding an abusive partner who (I see now) is almost identical to my father in her forms of abuse. I think it's also why this was the hardest relationship of my life to leave - even though it was by far the most unhealthy and the only emotionally abusive one I have ever had to endure.
Everything about my marriage was familiar to me in some way - in particular the behavior that I quoted from your post - and that stuff didn't happen to me just after she dropped the bomb...it was part of our years together from the beginning...but I never understood her actions as abusive because I am bigger, stronger, have a deep voice, and people have described me as intense...and she took full advantage of that disposition in me to turn everything onto me and try to make me crumble under the burden of her own, perfectly transferred insecurities. Which is to say...nothing she says or does is about you at all...despite the fact that it affects you so deeply.
I hope you don't mind my going on like this...it happens sometimes...and your post just brought up a lot of stuff that I have been working through for the last 14 months...
And...in the interest of full disclosure...I am in a new relationship now...even though my STBX flat out refuses to discuss the divorce with me...for me, my marriage is over.
Re: The Note - 07/03/09 08:10 AM
@healthydad
My W is one of those people who was always right. I was always wrong and never good enough. I've spent the past three years trying to dig myself out of depression only to get hit with the bomb (she admitted she was waiting till I could handle it). I'm probably stronger now then I've been in the past years but I don't think she was healthy for me. I'm sorry I don';t have a point here but maybe I should'nt work on it. Maybe I should find someone who better works with me. Comments?
My W is one of those people who was always right. I was always wrong and never good enough. I've spent the past three years trying to dig myself out of depression only to get hit with the bomb (she admitted she was waiting till I could handle it). I'm probably stronger now then I've been in the past years but I don't think she was healthy for me. I'm sorry I don';t have a point here but maybe I should'nt work on it. Maybe I should find someone who better works with me. Comments?
Transition - 07/03/09 12:19 PM
Hey Smiley Guy..
This will have to substitute for "Roll in ze hay".
You can do whatever you want... that's the beautiful thing.
You see... anyone can get laid, have a one night stand, fire the big gun. And it's nice that you have so many friends who are willing to take one for the gipper. Is this a way of saying &%*&!!!%?
A respected poster's signature line is "What's best for my children is best for me." Your wife may have a date planned, been busy with a shmuck, living the life she wants. But guess what, Smile Guy.. you're the dad.. you're the emotional rock for your kids. You are home, you are there for your kids.
Consider exploring this with your therapist. After all, if having a dalliance is good idea today, it will still be next week.
*hugs*
This will have to substitute for "Roll in ze hay".
You can do whatever you want... that's the beautiful thing.
You see... anyone can get laid, have a one night stand, fire the big gun. And it's nice that you have so many friends who are willing to take one for the gipper. Is this a way of saying &%*&!!!%?
A respected poster's signature line is "What's best for my children is best for me." Your wife may have a date planned, been busy with a shmuck, living the life she wants. But guess what, Smile Guy.. you're the dad.. you're the emotional rock for your kids. You are home, you are there for your kids.
Consider exploring this with your therapist. After all, if having a dalliance is good idea today, it will still be next week.
*hugs*
Re: Transition - 07/03/09 12:38 PM
Hi Smiley,
I just read your last post here and it brought some feelings I have been trying to suppress to the surface. W and I haven't been intimate going on 3 months now. It is frustrating as hell. I see women at the gym now in tight workout clothes and think to myself, what would be the big deal right now if I hooked up with someone, just to relieve some of the pent up frustration. Admittedly, my sitch isn't the same as yours, however she has on several occasions told me the M is over and she doesn't want to try anymore. I honestly don't know what I would do if the opportunity presented itself. I would like to think that I could resist it. I actually do believe in vows made before God. But W has disregarded those vows, so why should I keep them? It is a struggle to be sure, and your post just made me think about it again.
I just wanted to post because I really understand where you are coming from, and hope to understand my own feelings on the matter.
I just read your last post here and it brought some feelings I have been trying to suppress to the surface. W and I haven't been intimate going on 3 months now. It is frustrating as hell. I see women at the gym now in tight workout clothes and think to myself, what would be the big deal right now if I hooked up with someone, just to relieve some of the pent up frustration. Admittedly, my sitch isn't the same as yours, however she has on several occasions told me the M is over and she doesn't want to try anymore. I honestly don't know what I would do if the opportunity presented itself. I would like to think that I could resist it. I actually do believe in vows made before God. But W has disregarded those vows, so why should I keep them? It is a struggle to be sure, and your post just made me think about it again.
I just wanted to post because I really understand where you are coming from, and hope to understand my own feelings on the matter.
Re: Transition - 07/03/09 12:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Orich
Hi Smiley,
I honestly don't know what I would do if the opportunity presented itself. I would like to think that I could resist it. I actually do believe in vows made before God. But W has disregarded those vows, so why should I keep them?
I honestly don't know what I would do if the opportunity presented itself. I would like to think that I could resist it. I actually do believe in vows made before God. But W has disregarded those vows, so why should I keep them?
If you "actually do believe in vows made before God" then stick to those values...even if your wife has disregarded those vows. Why should you keep them? Because you just stated that you actually do believe in vows made before God! Either you do, or you don't! Don't compromise your values just because your spouse has compromised the vows that she also made. Don't do something that's gonna make you feel worse afterwards. That's just my 2 cents on the matter.
Re: Transition - 07/03/09 12:57 PM
Antlers,
You are right, as I said, I would hope that I could resist. I have those beliefs, but I am in a weakened position. As much as I want to honor my vows, it's like any temptation, I could give in, I am a sinful man. I keep these things in my prayers and continually ask for strength. So far, He has given me much, I have not collapsed into a mass of jelly, I have been able to stand and do what is necessary. In reality, I am sure if that temptation did present itself, through grace I will be able to resist.
You are right, as I said, I would hope that I could resist. I have those beliefs, but I am in a weakened position. As much as I want to honor my vows, it's like any temptation, I could give in, I am a sinful man. I keep these things in my prayers and continually ask for strength. So far, He has given me much, I have not collapsed into a mass of jelly, I have been able to stand and do what is necessary. In reality, I am sure if that temptation did present itself, through grace I will be able to resist.
Re: Transition - 07/03/09 01:04 PM
Maybe it would help to not put yourself in situations where those type of possibilities might arise. Are you still married? If you are...then don't cheat! Even if your spouse is! You feel bad enough already...don't do something that you'll be sorry for! It might help your ego, but at the expense of 'using' another person, and also at the expense of compromising values that you stated that you have (vows made before God meaning something to you)! This is tough stuff, that's for sure. Do the right thing...always. It will be better for you, and you'll feel better in the long run.
Re: Transition - 07/03/09 01:11 PM
Actually, I haven't been in any situation where the possibility might present itself. I won't go hang out in bars, etc. I only mentioned what I see in the gym because it is a reality. If I am being perfectly honest here, if I was ever in that situation, if I gave in and the time came to actually "perform", I wouldn't be able to do it. Because it isn't her. I really don't think I could be with anyone else right now, even if i had signed D papers in my hand.
Re: Transition - 07/03/09 02:39 PM
Guys, I was a near WAW. H operates from a place of being victimized and denied in our M. However, his behavior was neglectful and hurtful to me and our M. Before you go and blame your WAS for your behavior, think again. Rewriting seems to be contagious.
Yes, some Rs are unhealthy. If both people can see that and work on their parts, there can be evolution in the R.
As for those who have been left behind and do not feel that the M is anything but a piece of paper...do what you please...IMO.
If you are living in your home with someone and are attempting to DB, I think you should keep it in your pants and work on yourselves.
Again, this is just IMO.
Yes, some Rs are unhealthy. If both people can see that and work on their parts, there can be evolution in the R.
As for those who have been left behind and do not feel that the M is anything but a piece of paper...do what you please...IMO.
If you are living in your home with someone and are attempting to DB, I think you should keep it in your pants and work on yourselves.
Again, this is just IMO.
Re: Transition - 07/03/09 02:43 PM
Amen, Alive
Re: Transition - 07/03/09 02:55 PM
OMG!!
I am stunned at the lengths of time that so many of these relatively young, virile, LBH's have gone without. In both of my marriages, the first lasted 15 yrs, the second, 13 yrs. In neither marriage did we not have sex less than once a week, and obviously a lot more often most of the time.
Uh, Guys? Go forth and do whatever. I'm serious. You are far too young to be at the mercy of a frigid W.
I am stunned at the lengths of time that so many of these relatively young, virile, LBH's have gone without. In both of my marriages, the first lasted 15 yrs, the second, 13 yrs. In neither marriage did we not have sex less than once a week, and obviously a lot more often most of the time.
Uh, Guys? Go forth and do whatever. I'm serious. You are far too young to be at the mercy of a frigid W.
Re: Transition - 07/03/09 03:10 PM
Personally, if you don't care about your marriage anymore, and it won't make you feel bad later on down the line for breaking your marriage vows...even if your spouse has...then knock yourself out, if that's what you want to do! If you still care about your marriage, then don't cheat...even if your spouse has! That's my opinion, and everybody has one! It's been nearly 7 months for me. I'm still married. I still care about my marriage, even if my wife says she doesn't! I'm not gonna do it. That's my choice. If she divorces me...then on down the line, when I'm ready, I'll start dating again.
Re: Transition - 07/03/09 03:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Kimmie Lee
OMG!!
I am stunned at the lengths of time that so many of these relatively young, virile, LBH's have gone without. In both of my marriages, the first lasted 15 yrs, the second, 13 yrs. In neither marriage did we not have sex less than once a week, and obviously a lot more often most of the time.
Uh, Guys? Go forth and do whatever. I'm serious. You are far too young to be at the mercy of a frigid W.
I am stunned at the lengths of time that so many of these relatively young, virile, LBH's have gone without. In both of my marriages, the first lasted 15 yrs, the second, 13 yrs. In neither marriage did we not have sex less than once a week, and obviously a lot more often most of the time.
Uh, Guys? Go forth and do whatever. I'm serious. You are far too young to be at the mercy of a frigid W.
Wow, frigid W?? I sure thought I was frigid in my M and I'm damn sure I'm not now.
My H had an awful lot to do with our intimacy problems which is what they were.
I think everyone is entitled to do what he/she wishes, obviously. But, what is the point of DB if we are going to blame and oversimplify?
Re: Transition - 07/03/09 03:56 PM
My perspective was that I didn't want to be the caricature of the middle aged divorced guy. Trying to fill a hole with booze, floozies, or any other "excitement." I also needed to be assured that I was comfortable with who I was. The time alone made me do some serious introspection. I learned to like then love myself for who I was, just me. I don't need another person to complete me or make me whole. I am fine the way am. Still growth and mountains to climb but I want to meet these challenges.
Yes, my vows mattered to me. I had to look myself in the mirror. I also had to look at my kids and be responsible for my actions. It was my journey to make alone and it mattered to me how I handled it. I did not want to look back and have any regrets about how I acted or reacted over the course of the sitch. Think then take action.
Cheers
Coach
ps Smiley I am hardly saintly but I do have some ministries here in this world. Caution for you, beware of booby traps. It's the things you don't see coming that get you.
Yes, my vows mattered to me. I had to look myself in the mirror. I also had to look at my kids and be responsible for my actions. It was my journey to make alone and it mattered to me how I handled it. I did not want to look back and have any regrets about how I acted or reacted over the course of the sitch. Think then take action.
Cheers
Coach
ps Smiley I am hardly saintly but I do have some ministries here in this world. Caution for you, beware of booby traps.
It's the things you don't see coming that get you.