Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Gardener Jumping in (1st post) - 06/09/09 01:24 AM
Bear with me, all. Discovered this website 6/01 hoping against hope there was something like this out there. Read everything, plus hundreds of posts that first night. Called for DB Telephone Coaching app't 6/2, Coaching session with Dottie 6/3 (thank you, Dottie!). Been reading DR and the posts of all you brave, compassionate people all week (feel like I know you, Coach!)

Long version: Great 2nd marriage for us both for 14 out of 17 years: good friends, companions, partners, lovers, everything. Built great blended family who all love each other, no one has ever used the term "step"-anything (her 2, my 2 all now in their 30's and settled into their lives and passions).

One rough patch:I began abusing alcohol '04, hiding my nightly, self-medicating buzz until I was called on it by wife in '06. I quit , we went into joint counseling, wife went to Al-Anon, I chose Rational Recovery over AA because it resonated more with me.

Last year, we seemingly inexplicably went through peaks and valleys of great-as-usual and quiet and distant. Wife was seeing EAP counselor (who doesn't support our staying married) and on Bomb Date (11/2/08) said "I got us an MC app't; I'm getting an apartment. And it's been mixed signals ever since. MC had her work on her, me work on me, we talked about communication styles but never really addressed issues. Talked about talking but never talked. After W asked for divorce last month, MC announced that our last session was our last session ("M was DOA when you walked in door 6 mos. ago, too much water over the dam, should have come to me 2 - 3 years ago.")

So, I certainly did my share of crying, pleading and all the other DB no-no's for first few months then started backing off a bit, DB Coach Dottie said I was starting to do a lot of correct things, then she (and you guys) gave me so much more to do. I'm on my way to a better me, my best friend (W) is confused and in a tremendous amount of pain and that's the way I'm approaching it.

I'll have more details and many more questions in due course, but need help with a few immediate questions right now:

1)After she asked for D, I removed my wedding band the next day (she hasn't). Not out of spite, but because it became a source of pain, not joy and by not wearing it I thought I was reminding myself that this is REALLY bad (and I didn't even know about the Stockdale Paradox then!), Should I leave it off/put it back on?
2) W's b'day is in couple of weeks, our anniversary shortly thereafter. What if anything should I do (gift, acknowledge, ignore)?

Thanks, all. And thanks in advance for all that I'm sure is to come.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/09/09 05:46 PM
There are threads about the wedding ring. It is your call. Some believe it is a symbol of the commitment the marriage. Some believe it is a symbol so their current state of mind. I left mine on. I was ready for hers to disappear at some point, and did not react to it going away. When I was served with D papers, I took mine off, respectfully handed it to her and said good luck.

As for the bday and anniversary, I would think a 180 would be in order. Think about what you normally did, and do the opposite.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/09/09 07:07 PM
Thanks, R2C. I'll look at those threads.

The b'day/ann'y 180s idea sounds real good. I hadn't thought of that (real new at this).

Gardener
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 04:20 PM
Hi, all

Help! Anyone have any add'l advice re: my sitch? Should I provide more info on my sitch? Should I go to TLR forum. Is there a TLR forum? (Gonna go look right now.)
Thanks.
Posted By: Coach Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 04:31 PM
What is the source of pain for taking your ring off?
Why keep it on?
It's your choice.


B-day/Anniv - don't go overboard, maybe just a simple card acknowledging the day.

What are your goals?

180s?

GAL - how are you taking care of yourself?

Just keep asking here for what you need, read and post on other's threads - you make friends and you will learn alot.
Whatchya growin in ya garden?

Cheers
Coach
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 06:36 PM
Thanks, Coach

Taking off the ring was a post-"I want a divorce", pre-DR/DBing move along the lines of "Face it, this is over, you tried everything these past six months while she just moved further and further away." And a bit of a 180 for me, in retrospect. Why keep it on? We're still technically/legally married and now I have some hope again. But off feels right so off it remains.

Yeah, a simple card/acknowledgement feels right, too, re: b'day/anniv. Although, I immediately wonder should I sign it "Love, Gardener"? (L word is like her kryptonite, now) "Always, Gardener"? (always=less scary than L) or just "Gardener"? Am I overthing all this? Is it possible to overthink this stuff? Also, I'm going away the weekend of our 2 annivs (day we met, day we married)

Two present goals: 1) She will begin to seem at ease/less awkward when she comes over (very briefly once a week right now for mail, etc.) 2) she will ask to spend some time together. Though I don't know how to reconcile these and showing her some of the changing me while making myself scarce when she's around, saying little, etc. and other Last Resort guidelines.

180s include being positive, upbeat, not calling/emailing her. No pleading. Agreeing with her. maintaining my heart's one basic approach to her that this is my dear, dear friend who is "very confused and in a tremendous amount of emotional pain" as the MC once told me privately.

GAL: got back into nutrition, started exercising again, meditating again, Saturday/Sunday hiking again, joined a local hiking club, volunteered w/local organization, reaching out to friends and just getting the heck out of the house in general.

The garden has many bulbs, perennials, sunflowers, spinach, peas, carrots, herbs, beans, tomatoesetc.

In the real garden, I'm nursing shoots of hope, perseverance, PMA, patience while forever weeding out the gloom, doom, self-pity and other insidious invaders.

Thanks, again
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 06:46 PM
Gardner
Is she still wearing her ring?
If it feels better off for you then keep it off. Purely your call as you are still technically married.
What steps has she taken toward divorce?
How much time do you spend with her now?
Did you kick the MC who was so incredibly crappy?
You are doing an awesome job with the GALing. Good stuff in there.
What is your first course of action here?
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 07:26 PM
As of two weeks ago, yes, she was wearing her ring. Last time she was here, she was inandout, holding some things in her left hand, so I couldn't tell without being real obvious. I see you're not a WAW, but as a woman and having read my sitch, would my not wearing the ring make you curious, pi**ed, or what? Or should I stop thinking about what she's thinking altogether?!

W mentioned getting a mediator once at last MC meeting (3 weeks ago). No mention, no movement at all (that I'm aware of) since. 2nd hand reports (fwiw) I've gotten from DIL is that W is very, very confused, doesn't know what to do.
Other 2nd hand report is that W's C, who used to push for divorce is now pushing for a decision (go for D or go for reconciliation). Right now, I think someone should tell her that status quo is a good, if not permanent, option, too.

Like I said, I see W once a week, very briefly. small pleasantries. She started emailing/calling a bit more for a while after I stopped initiating, but she's pulled back since then.

stilly, I sure wanted to kick the MC, but only in retrospect because he gave me the bum's rush out of his office! After his "DOA" announcement, "this is our last session", I said "But you said and your website says that you specialize 1) in reconciling and if necessary, in 2) the walking-away-amicably process, where's the that process? My w started to cry a bit and - I BS you not - the MC said "We're done now and I'd like to have a few words with W. I got up, dazed, went to the door, turned around (he was inches behind me) and he said, "Good-bye, Gardener, Best of luck to you." This all took 5 seconds and I was outside his door, flabbergasted. We had come in separate cars, so I just left. And get this, My C is in the same building and when I went to see him the next week (I switched our app't to the old MC slot since it was now free) I pulled into the parking lot and W was there and when asked, awkwardly said she's "still seeing MC". I just don't know. Sorry, stilly, I've crossed the line from answering you to venting. Back to answering:
Thanks for encouraging words on GALing. I'm trying.
First course of action is to keep up what I'm doing. There's more, so much more, but it's overwhelming right now (read, write goals, write action plans, write an answer to your own sitch post as if you were answering a stranger, schedule 2nd telephone coaching w/Dottie, somehow stay positive and focused, etc.

Whew!!! Thanks. I needed that
Posted By: Kimmie Lee Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 07:27 PM
I don't think I would bother with birthday and especially anniversary greetings.

She's sending mixed signals? Send one to her that is very clear: You are through simpering after her. She wants space, give it to her. Gradual weaning isn't dramatic enough.

And I would leave the ring off. I did because it was too painful for me too.
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 07:34 PM
See, I'm on the fence about going dark. I think each situation is very very unique despite the fact we all are fighting for our marriages....
You know her Gardner. Does she want space, or would it be better if you initiated some contact, to let her know you are still there and thinking about her?
I kept my rings on. My message was/is I am married. Until the ink is dry, you gave these to me and I love them so I will wear them as it's my right to....for now.
My H never wore a ring so that was nothing for me to be concerned or hurt about if he were to take his off.
I think the second hand information probably came from a reliable source. Maybe it's time to find a new MC. If she's confused capitalize on it. Show her you both can be happy.
Start DBing. But I dont' think you are in the Last Resort phase by any means.
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 07:34 PM
I think the cards would be nice. Keep it neutral.
Posted By: Kimmie Lee Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 08:12 PM
Their MC has the wife believing that the M has been dead for 3 yrs. And to top it off, the W is STILL SEEING THE MC??!! Something is very fishy here.

I think a few big 180's are in order.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 08:18 PM
stilly,
Yeah, the two neutral cards were my first instinct; gonna go with that.

What you said about wearing the ring because you're still married until the ink dries got to me. I'm a sappy romantic to be sure. I dunno...maybe if there's any good sign from her, I'll put it back on (sorry, all, I'm not usually wishy-washy like this).

What you said about me not being at TLR yet is interesting. Could you explain? Since I'm new at this when I read the TLR prereqs ("Already separated, been asked for a divorce," etc.,) I kinda ignored the rest of DR and concentrated on TLR chapter
almost exclusively.

Whadda ya think?
Posted By: Kimmie Lee Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 08:20 PM
G, your W is still seeing this MC because......?
Posted By: volleydog Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 08:21 PM
For me I've taken my ring off three different times and have always ended up putting it back on. I figure I'm married till I'm not. W took hers off last summer, my fault. I saw her right after she told me she wanted a D so I asked her why she kept her ring on if she didn't want to be married...It hasn't been on since.
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 08:25 PM
Remember this: Don't believe a word they say and only half of what they do.

I think your information that she is very distraught and unsure of what to do is from a great source. But do YOU trust this source? If so, then you are not in the LR stage.

180's are good and effective if done right. But if you are already not chasing her, not email, not calling, not contacting in general, that's good too.
However-----Maybe you need to get your handsome face into her head some more....? I'm not sure, you have to make that call. You know her better.
How do you think she would react if you asked her for a date? With the promise of no r or d discussions. Dinner and a movie or whatever.
Kind of start over.....?
As far as the ring goes, that's really how I feel.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 08:55 PM
Okay, here goes. After this reply I think I'm gonna set up my second TelCoach session.

stilly, I do trust the source (dil). Just don't know W's true state of mind. Pre-db, I asked dil "As a woman, do you think there's nothing left that I can do? That's it over?" DIL said no, not by a long shot, W doesn't know what to do. However, next day W asked for D, so I dunno.

Benign contact/date might be a good idea, but after a only a week of DBing I wonder if I should just stay the course and be patient.

When confronted at MC parking lot, W als said it was "one final session".

Didn't want to go here, but:
MC sees couples in office some days of week, in home office the other days.
I saw MC by myself only once alone, in office (week before the final "bum's rush" session).
W mentioned on two (three?) occasions having seen him individually.
At last session, W made comment about oriental rug on MC's office floor, "Every time I see the rug in your den I wonder is it the same as or just similar to this one."
I hate to think the thought. W is moral and upstanding, etc. She'd never...Well, she'd never leave me or ask for a divorce either...

But in my heart of hearts, that is one thing she'd never do.

Time to schedule that TelCoaching.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 09:19 PM
Well, TelCoach session won't be until next Monday.

And, stilly, two things I forgot:

1) I do know her and if there's one statement she's made more than any other in the last six months it's been "Just leave me alone." So I won't make any move on benign date until after TeleCoach.

2) Howdja know I was handsome? wink

Thanks, all! First DB, then TeleCoaching, now you guys. Great, just great....
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 11:39 PM
Then leave her alone for now. Talk to your coach, see what advice you get.
When you do see her be upbeat and concerned for her but not overwhelming.
And I think if you trust DIL that's good. Keep line of communication open but don't abuse it, don't put her in the middle of things.
And even though she said she wants a divorce, I believe that could be the thing furthest from the truth.
Keep in mind she's hurting too and in a lot of turmoil.
Take care of you and the rest will work out.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/11/09 11:53 PM
Originally Posted By: stillloveshim
Then leave her alone for now. Talk to your coach, see what advice you get.
When you do see her be upbeat and concerned for her but not overwhelming.
And I think if you trust DIL that's good. Keep line of communication open but don't abuse it, don't put her in the middle of things.
And even though she said she wants a divorce, I believe that could be the thing furthest from the truth.
Keep in mind she's hurting too and in a lot of turmoil.
Take care of you and the rest will work out.


OK.
I do, it is, she's a sweet person & is a gentle, concerned, occasional line of communication, never would put her in awful middle (a lose/lose sitch, for sure).
Y'know, stilly, I do believe that in my heart of hearts (the furthest thing from the truth comment). haven't dared say it to anyone except, now, you (and a couple hundred DBers).
I always keep her turmoil in mind
Doin' the best I can, still in the stage of this sitch occupying my thoughts every waking minute of the day (aaargghhh!!)

Thanks.
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/12/09 12:36 PM
In the beginning when my H left I was about 123 pounds give or take. I'm 103 pounds now. It can take it's toll on you, but you have to stay positive. I had days when I couldn't even think. I had to leave work and go home and just do God knows what.
BUT I am much better now and to be honest, I recognize the potential for us to divorce and it scares me, but I'm still taking care of me first and foremost. I figure taking care of me allows me to take better care of my S and my relationhips and my job.
I won't tell you to stop thinking about her and the situation, but I will say keep it all under control. If you feel antsy or anxious, don't call her. Calm down first. Only make decisions when you are calm and collected. You'll be grateful you did.
She is in a lot pain too. Maybe when the time is right, you let her know that in a very caring way.
I did for my H, when I was finally able to get past the angry "How dare he do this to us?" and it went a long way.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/13/09 02:43 AM
And still more wisdom from stilly.
Thank you.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/13/09 01:44 PM
Mornin', group,

I have a question/assumption I need an answer/some clarification on. From all my forum reading, I've reached a tentative conclusion about WASs.

It appears to me:

1) That the majority of WAHs WA either because of or shortly after there is an OW/PA (post hoc ergo prompter hoc on my part?) and,

2) When a WAW WsA, there is often an OM/PA shortly after she WsA.

Am I right about this?
Should I have made this a New Topic?
Thanks,
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/15/09 01:45 AM
I dunno....bad day.

Went for my newly-mandatory Sat/Sun a.m. hike (the woods are full of answers).
Some insights, cleared my head a bit, but I let the day go downhill from there. Didn't tackle any of the many things around here I've fallen behind on (bills, business, lawn, laundry, you name it). Vegged out. Didn't mope, didn't obsess, just...nothing.

W called once this past week. I answered, she asked a family finance question, I answered, cheerfully, she asked a couple of benign questions (each time right after I said "OK, I gotta get going right now, talk to ya soon"), so it felt like she might've been trying to keep me on the phone, so I guess that's good. She was here three times in the last week. I wasn't here first time (making myself scarce), Here for her arrival second and third times, hello, few short pleasantries then I left first. I was upbeat, friendly, different clothes style, some obvious changes around the house, but how do you db (make yourself scarce, leave first, end conversations first, not always be there and showcase one's changes at the same time? I keep struggling with that contradiction.
Well, gonna put together some notes for tomorrows TeleCoach 2 session but not before apologizing to all for lethargically venting a no-content bummer post.
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/15/09 04:10 PM
I think statistically speaking: a lot of men do leave when they have another person lined up. But this is not the hard fast rule. Also many men leave with the mentality that "if this doesn't work out, I'll just come home." And leaving is sometimes a relatively quick decision.

But for WAW's there is a lot of thought and anguish that goes into it and women are less prone to have someone else waiting for them, but again, not the hard rule.

I read How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It and that's where I learned a lot about that, per my DB Coach.
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/15/09 04:14 PM
It's a fine line between the two. For now you need to give her distance, let her contact you unless you really have a solid reason to reach out to her. Let the dust settle.
When she does see you or call you, then you let her see your PMA. You let her notice the changes in you. It will happen. The number one thing you need here, patience. You can do it.
Listen to your coach and take it all to heart. And put it all into practice and be diligent. It's hard, but gets easier as you turn these practices into habits.
Posted By: Coach Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/15/09 06:42 PM
Quote:
but how do you db (make yourself scarce, leave first, end conversations first, not always be there and showcase one's changes at the same time?


How much do you try to read into every word and action your wife makes? Your every move is being watched by your W. You won't get any feedback from her for a while. You are making the changes for yourself so enjoy learning and thriving under tough conditions. You can handle it.
Cheers
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/16/09 02:47 AM
[quote=But for WAW's there is a lot of thought and anguish that goes into it and women are less prone to have someone else waiting for them, but again, not the hard rule. [/quote]

I'm sure...this has really begun sinking in only recently. Another reason I feel for her anguish...and, frankly, admire her courage.

And, funny, I also picked up [u]How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It[u]yesterday when I bought the other two I mentioned earlier. Just skimmed it so far, but it seems to be yet another treasure trove, especially the sex section (we started to have HD/LD issues in the last year or so).

So many (R) books, so little time crazy
Thanks.

Hope I did the Quote/excerpt thing correctly (first time) laugh
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/16/09 03:01 AM
Coach, I don't know how to do the quote/excerpt thingy, yet,so re: your "How much do you try to read into every word and action your wife makes?", I really don't anymore. I observe, but I don't try to divine anymore. Is this good? confused
Also, I don't know exactly when I stopped doing it for the marriage/her and started to do it for me but a subtle and powerful shift sure accompanied it.

Thanks.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/16/09 03:35 AM
I'm all over it, stilly. All the distance she wants, really. And I'm slowly but surely becoming Mr. PMA laugh As-iffing lake all hell, and it's starting to take hold slowly (as in Plate-Tectonics-slowly,) but it's happening. wink

Great 2nd TeleCoach session (redundant) tonight w/Dottie. I'll skip all the details, but suffice it to say that after a recap of my two weeks since the last one she said I'm doing great! laugh Doin' it right on virtually every count.
She agrees with you that despite already leaving and asking for D 4 weeks ago (and never mentioning it again/moving towards it, yet), this is not a TLR sitch yet. Coach sees tons of ambivalence, confusion, mixed signals. (MC once told me W's mixed signals were less yes/no mixed signals and more like a short-circuited traffic light: red-yellow-yellow-red-green-yellow-red-red, etc.).So much more transpired telecoaching, all of it good and several really great ideas/actions for next few days, etc. Since S and DIL are living with me (and DIL talks frequently to W), I even went so far as dressing to the nines, driving off in my car to park and call coach, then going to dinner and a movie, coming home some 4+ hours later. Be a bit mysterious, right? wink

Uh oh. Just remembered that wife pays cell phone bill online (I pay land line), so she'll see telecoach session phone #s (Dottie's in Michigan). Oh, well, more mystery.

Thank you, all. As my own dust begins to settle and I become accepting and focused, I will spend more time (and two-centsing) on others' threads and become more of a contributor and less of a taker. But please know you have made the difference these past two weeks or so.

And, please forgive the jumping around writing style (I tried to write a paragraph once without parentheses; I passed out).
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/16/09 01:15 PM
Kimmie Lee,

Just glancing through my own thread and noticed I didn't respond. Sorry. I'm new. My biggest and most unlike me 180 was detaching/not initiating anything for 3 weeks. I'm with you on the ring, still off, I agree. I didn't respond to your "And W is still seeing MC because...?" because I thought it was rhetorical, like, "Hello??, twooo plus twooo equaaals....?"
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/16/09 01:43 PM
Chauncey: Smiley’s Person in the hizzie to pay off some debts.

After she asked for D, I removed my wedding band the next day (she hasn't).

Mine took hers off first. I figured, sauce for the goose, sauce of the gander. I’m actually glad I did. For me, the bare finger is a symbol of The Way Forward. It’s not that I don’t value the marital vows. The bare finger reminds me that I do, despite the loss of the marriage to which the vows were directed.

W's b'day is in couple of weeks, our anniversary shortly thereafter. What if anything should I do (gift, acknowledge, ignore)?

I Happy Birthday’d. The kids got cards and the “kids” (i.e., me in loco kidentis) bought her a gift. Same thing on Mother’s Day; same thing (in reverse) that I expect will happen on Father’s Day. Anniversary is in November. I suspect we’ll talk. But then November is a million miles away. I’ve got 50-meter targets that want attention.

W mentioned getting a mediator once at last MC meeting (3 weeks ago). No mention, no movement at all (that I'm aware of) since.

Done is done, so she’s not done. Medium-rare, maybe. Time is an ally. Let it work its mojo.

2nd hand reports... that W is very, very confused, doesn't know what to do.

‘Twas ever thus.

I let the day go downhill from there... Vegged out. Didn't mope, didn't obsess, just...nothing.

Good! You don’t owe the day anything.
-------
@KimmieLee is pressing hard on this MC character. You read in the DR book a number of objections to “real” marriage counselors, one of the principal ones being that a goodly number seem not all that interested in M.

Now if I wanted to mind-read @Kimmie a bit, I’d suggest she thinks MC is also WAW’s OM. (Love those abbreviations, Pigpen, this here’s the Rubber Duck, 10-4). Could be. Or it could also be that WAW likes going to this yardbird because he’s validating her own decision-process, perhaps even reinforcing it. "Ohhh, you’re right MC, I never thought about that."

But you can’t stop that from happening. You can do what you do. The answers to all your questions start and end with you. Everything else is just noise.
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/16/09 06:02 PM
You can do this Gardner. The bill....you are right, it will just look like more mystery. You don't have to worry about it. She'll wonder and she'll ask or she won't. You don't have to tell her exactly what it was, you can be truthful and say it was phone call related to doing something to help improve you and yourself for yourself. And that's very very true.
Hold tight, listen to your coach.
You are rocking this out!
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/17/09 12:32 AM
SP, I hear ya, on the same page, thanks. Thanks, especially for the "so what?" slant on the total vegging out day (I thought, "Yeah. What he said.").

Kimmie Lee got me thinkin' in a bad place re: MC as OM. I've since released it. Did bring it up to telecoach last night, though. She said "You still don't completely know what W's problem is. If there is/ever is an OM, that will not become the problem. It'll just be another symptom," (Dottie rocks).
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/17/09 12:37 AM
Have I told you (all of you) how good it is to be talking about all this, constructively, positively?!?

(To say nothing about having a little cheering section out there) laugh
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/17/09 01:08 AM
I knew W was coming over this morning to drop something off. Always comes in through garage, room off garage is small exercise room so I didn't straighten anything up after exercising this morning. Let her know I'm doing it, dammit. She had her new dog, I gave new dog a toy I bought last night (telecoach's idea), left out on counter this book I came across and bought: A Year By The Sea: Thoughts of an Unfinished Woman (a sort of MLC/WAW sabbatical journey-of-discovery tome) by Joan Anderson so she'll see that I'm tryin' to figure out where her head could be at, if not actually at. I was at the table eating breakfast w/DIL & GS and reading my fifth novel this month ("Why do you never read fiction, anymore?", W would often ask).
I didn't notice if she was ring/no ring. Didn't think of it. Didn't care. I was positive, cheerful, chatty. And she was at ease for a change, so I stayed around, doin' my morning things rather than make myself scarce.

I got home from work about 15 minutes before W was due back to pick up her dog, so I told DIL I was going to visit friend in hospital (true), and then going to a meeting of the hiking club I recently joined (not true) and I split. About a mile from house, I see her car stopped at red light at the same intersection, my light turns green, I know she can see me too, and I drove by, eyes front, smiling and belting one out along with the radio. cool

Some days it just all comes together (not many, but some. Okay...today)
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/17/09 12:26 PM
Quote:
Some days it just all comes together (not many, but some. Okay...today)


And that's why the obsessing and the planning and the pining and the scheming all stops at some point. It moves the way it moves.

The best thing about the future is that it only comes one day at a time. Abraham Lincoln said that.
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/17/09 02:34 PM
Yes, this board is a real life saver for sure. It's great to vent and to get advice and to learn. Learn from everyone else, what worked and esp. what didn't!
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/18/09 08:09 PM
How are you today?
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/18/09 09:38 PM
Y'know,,,I'm doing really good, today.

And your thoughtful, unexpected "How are you today?" just bumped the day up another notch.

How are you doing?
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/19/09 03:25 AM
Venting (whining?):
And then down a bunch of notches I go. Why? Because tonight S says "That's a great photo W emailed us, isn't it?" Told him I didn't get anything so he sends it to me, I look at email details and see I'm no longer on her Family email group/list whatever.
Great progress on me/my stuff last coupla weeks, great feedback from telecoach and IC. Noticed W tried to keep me from ending call last time she called me with $ question. Even noticed lately (last 2, 3 calls?) that she's dropped her last-couple-of-months habit of greeting/opening phone calls with our names:(Hi, Gardener? It's W...") versus the lazy/familiar shorthand we all adopt over time: ("Hi. It's me"). Then I realized that that $ question call was 8 days ago(!) She's going dark??
And, hey, last two email responses from W's sister (who I adore and with whom I've never disussed sitch) were curt, flat....and I spiral down to not appreciating smallstep progress to actually finding (inventing?) some negatives.

Aw, screw it. Just whining. Tired. Time for bed. W's stopping by in the morning so I gotta find my PMA, put it in its recharger and have it all fired up for the morning,

Thankyewverymuch.
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/19/09 02:01 PM
That is pretty small in the scheme of things....let it go. Concentrate on the bigger things and keep in mind, she probably took you off the list to be kind and there was no nasty motive behind it so let it go and relax. Keep working on you.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/19/09 02:30 PM
Aaarrgghh!
It all comes together in my head and my heart, when I read, post and plan. So why does it (sometimes? Usually?) not come together in real time?

W came over this morning w/dog. Chatted w/DIL (and me, kinda) in kitchen while I made my breakfast. She appears fine w/dil, but I sense uncomfortable, awkward, artficial-ness when she talks to me. She went out to garden to cut flowers while I ate. Then I joined her. A few words about state of garden after yesterday's downpour, then:
W: So how are you?
M: I'm good! How are you doing?
W: I'm fine.
M: What's new?
W: Nothing. Have you given any thought about the mediator?
M: Actually, I haven't thought about it at all. (I haven't except when I would realize she hasn't brought it up once since last MC 6 weeks ago).
W: Well, would you? I'd like to get started.
M: I'll give it some thought.

I should mention here that shortly after she moved out she said she never wants to live in our house again regardless of our outcome. Two months ago she said she would like to live in it one more time before we sell it (tentative selling=next spring) and I asked her what arrangement she foresaw living here? She said Alone (you move out), Together as housemates, or...Together.
I let it go. After last MC at which time I said "I'll move out only when it's sold", and she asked me to reconsider, I did just that (hey, I am a reasonable man) and informed her (via email) I changed my mind and she could move back in when her lease is up in December, I'll move. The next time I saw her, she was sincerely grateful and not in a "Yes! I won! sense," but a "Really? You sure? Thank you," sense. I meant it in a generous, no ulterior motive way. It wasn't until afterward I thought, "good, I bought what I needed: time, I forestalled the (pre-db) inevitable until December - Spring." I ended the email by asking her to consider not doing anything re:mediator/divorce for a while, explaining, "...not in the hopes that you'll change your mind, just in an exhausted, drained 'not now...just not now' sense."

I should also mention that I think I'm totally against the whole Mediator route since I've been told that in Connecticut, depite the term, Mediator, a mediator represents the party that contacts/contracts with them and the other party needs to get a lawyer to represent them in the process. Besides, we already agreed that there is probably nothing we will disagree on dividing.

Anyway...I feel like I struck out in real time. Goals (mine/DB/TLR/Telecoach):

Always agree: Didn't say "Mediator? Sure! Get it going!" How, how, how does one say/agree to something one would never agree to short of being at gunpoint?

Don't oppose/don't refute: Well, I managed that one, I guess.

Be expressive: Telecoach says I come across monotone, flat (I do). I'm sure I did post-mediator.

Act happy: I'm sure I looked stunned when she said it.

Act confident: Ditto

Show her something different. Make her pause and wonder... Feel like I showed her an uncharacteristic deer-in-the-headlights look. Different, but not good

Every interaction is a chance to demonstrate change and 180s. Not so good this morning

Validate/acknowledge: Did I say, "You're saying you're still thinking of contacting a mediator and want to know if I've considered it?" Nope.

Act like her friend: Not after the Mediator question. I reflexed into monotone matter-of-fact (which she has said she over-interprets as cold, withdrawn, controlling).

Mirror her feelings : She seemed uncomfortable. I didn't validate/explore.

And on and on.
I dunno, I give myself a B+ pre mediator interaction in house, a D post-mediator in garden. Emotions, abandonment, "Danger! Danger! DB isn't working! Abort! Abort!"

And why do I lately think she wants me to say something? Is that my old knee-jerk pleading trying to resurface. Wanting to say, "Let's work on this," "I need more time; don't you need more time?" "I love you" again (I love saying I love you to her). But, no, I won't say that again unless it's someday in response to her saying it again. And saying something, discussing R is not good right now. Still, lately, I think she wants me to say something, or am I just getting Hollywood-happy-endingish?

Wait, I just had a thought while previewing this post: Maybe I'm misinterpreting. Maybe she doesn't want me to say something, maybe she's trying to trigger the pleading/negative/me to show herself that "He'll never change"

You know how some of us early post-bomb plead, "Throw me a bone...give me some hope, here"?
Well, I only said that once. Then I decided to find it. Something. Each month, Though it went south after after a couple of months. Here's what I grasped at/lived on: *

December: "Come back to me, Gardener." Even though she had left, I knew what she meant. Felt good.

January: Holding my hands, looking deep in my eyes: "I love you, Gardener, you." Ditto above.

February: "Be my hero, Gardener" Didn't ask her exactly what she meant by that until 6 weeks later and all she offered was, "Oh, that. Be strong, be more positive."

March: "I still need us, Gardener"

April, she wanted one month of no contact. We agreed in MC office. Then, Bomb 2: What the Hell happened in April?( I suspect her Find-your-own-voice, make-your-own-life IC).

**End of April: "I may not be re-entering our marriage, you know."

**May 13: I want a D

* Ladies, please help me out, here. Need Women's POV/Take
** Triple Dog Dare Ditto on this sudden turnaround!

Her Birthday's tomorrow. Mailed a card: "W, Happy Birthday! Always, Gardener"
Every year for 18 years I woke her up on her birthday rocking her while singing the entire Beatles' Birthday. I bet/hope she's gonna miss that tomorrow morning. I will.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/19/09 04:23 PM
Thanks.
When you get a chance, could you check my last post and advise because:
a) I'm having a semi-freakout day
b) I need a woman's point of view of latest development and my December-May recap of where (I thought) W's head was at.

"Calling any and all women/WAWs for perspective!"
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/19/09 05:05 PM
First and foremost--no matter how dark it gets, never never lay down and die.
Second, don't believe anything they say and only half of what they do.
Make it clear to her that you are not interested in divorce or anything that will make that happen. If you are not interested in going to a mediator, tell her simply. No. I will not go to a mediator. I will continue to live my life but I will not help you in ending soemthing I think is wonderful and has the potential to be even more wonderful....the envy of the neighborhood.
Forget the past. Concentrate on you today so that maybe she'll be a part of your future.
You can have your freak out days. But I do PROMISE YOU, there will be more but then you manage, you get a hold of the situation and you'll be amazed at how you'll be handling all of this not that far from now.
Don't think that because she seems to be talking divorce that you have to help and be nice about it. You do have to be nice, but you don't have to help her with this crazy idea of D. Make it clear, you're not interested in that.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/19/09 05:31 PM
Well, I guess I'm just venting and going on and on (and up and down) today.

Pre-Db I got something from the most unlikely source that resonated with me and gave me hope (hope, but no real direction, alas).

On the TV show Boston Legal, no less: Attorney Alan Shore is doing an overnight courthouse jail cell stint for contempt. With him in his cell is a state senator busted for being with a prostitute. Senator's devastated wife arrives and confronts him through the bars and, although he turns his head to afford the couple some modicum of privacy, Alan hears and is witness to some wrenching exchanges between them.

Later, when the devastated state senator is being released, Alan approaches him and offers:

"You and she seem to love each other very much. I suspect the pain she feels can only come from love. Don't let her give up on you. I know you would never give up on her. Don't let her give up on you."

At some deep level this really resonated with me even though, at the time, I thought, "Yes! Exactly! But...how?

About six weeks later, I found the beginning of the "how" here.

On with roller coaster ride...
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/19/09 05:48 PM
Thank you, stilly. I knew you'd come through with exactly what I needed to hear and do.

Originally Posted By: stillloveshim
Make it clear to her that you are not interested in divorce or anything that will make that happen. If you are not interested in going to a mediator, tell her simply. No. I will not go to a mediator. I will continue to live my life but I will not help you in ending soemthing I think is wonderful and has the potential to be even more wonderful....the envy of the neighborhood.


Boy, did I miss the obvious on this: Post-pleading stage, I've just been going along.

No. I will not be an active participant in this.

And you worded it just perfectly.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/19/09 05:54 PM
Oh, and any guesses on the Dec-March signals vs. the sudden April/May collapse?

(Am I being a pest?) smile
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/19/09 06:06 PM
Sure, lots of theories....but ultimately, everyone of our WAS are sort of nutzo. And then we become sort of nutzo too. This board is about teaching and supporting each other through the nutzo.

Do you have any idea who she is confiding in right now? Is there some idiot out there who thinks divorce ends pain? Divorce is a viable solution? I think divorce works when someone is getting physically abused or someone has an addiction they refuse to fix, such as a substance addiction, porn, etc. But even then, there is potential to work and fix the issues.
Anyways, I'm babbling.....

I recently told my H, it's officially time for both of us to shut up. He asked what that meant and I said Until one of these stupid people in your ear tells you 'Hey, I'll help you raise your son, do your laundry, rub your feet when they hurt, help you with the bills, listen when you're upset, and basically all around be here for you in any circumstance' then they can go F themselves and it's time for them to stay out of MY personal life.

I do believe since then he has limited his conversations about us to only his parents who are the only people I can think of who would meet the qualifications of the above list, maybe not the feet rubbing, the rest of it. As do my parents, minus the feet rubbing. What's more, my friends, while pissed have told me to fight for this tooth and nail. I know some of his "friends" (two in particular, both female) have told him to get out....blah blah blah.

And since he's limited his conversation about our personal life, things have been much better between us. Decisions that have been made have been good ones and we're still very capable of getting a divorce, BUT he has agreed to continue with our marriage program....which he was against vehemently after agreeing to do it.

So IF you think there is a person or persons in her life telling her divorce is the answer, silence that person somehow. And no, don't hurt them, but maybe let her know you would find it very violating to find out she was discussing this issue with anyone, esp. not family who loves you both.

In terms of the changes from basically "I love you" to "I want to see a mediator", she's going through her own valleys, and crossing her own mountains. Just stay firm with what DR teaches you.....the majority of couples who survive this come out the other end even stronger. Let her know you've learned that and yo believe it. You will not quit on this marriage. You won't stop living, but you won't quit either.

It's odd, you are going to fight the person you love the most because they are the person you love the most.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/19/09 07:48 PM
Main culprit is IC (Find your own voice/get on with your life)
Former MC (don't know if she is still seeing him by herself - she was)
DIL and SIL don't get much detail. DIL said "everyone" (?) is telling her not to do this., that she doesn't know what to do. SIL says she's "very upset over breaking up/ending the great blended family you guys built," "she doesn't know what will become of her alone", and "She's in a lot of pain. I've never seen her like this."

The first sentence is the answer (and I have no control over/access to IC).
The rest are just...commentary.

Despite Sep and D request, maybe I shouldn't be TLRing this. She's insecure along with being confused and in pain and whenever she reads my mind, she goes way off the charts to fiction-land, so Lord knows how she's interpreting my LTRing.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/20/09 12:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Gardener
Every year for 18 years I woke her up on her birthday rocking her while singing the entire Beatles' Birthday. I bet/hope she's gonna miss that tomorrow morning.
I will.


I did... frown

Called her. She didn't pick up. LM.

Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/20/09 01:29 PM
Welcome to the club. But you can handle it. One thing to think about: To what extent are your respective experiences of the previous divorce influencing your evaluations of the current situation? You obviously can't know what's going on in WAW's head, but based on your observations now and (I assume) her characterization of D#1 in past conversations, is she re-enacting the past? Are you? How might that affect your DB'ing?
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/20/09 01:57 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
To what extent are your respective experiences of the previous divorce influencing your evaluations of the current situation? You obviously can't know what's going on in WAW's head, but based on your observations now and (I assume) her characterization of D#1 in past conversations, is she re-enacting the past?


SP, you raise a point that exploded in my head 2 days ago!

I know the exact moment that W decided to divorce D1. I know reasons she was unhappy with H1/M1. In retrospect they now seem (to me) to have been potentially repairable, or attempt-to-repair-able at the least. But I never knew why she decided D.

I know much of why W was unhappy with me/our M. And they are all repairable/attempt-to-repair-able, IMO. But I don't know why she decided D.

So, the obvious answer to your 1st Q is YES!
How does that affect my DBing? Well, I'll tell ya!...
I don't know. Yet.

Re: my D1. Totally different bizzarro sitch (except for my initial pleading. Did lots of pleading.) smirk

I'm also aware of pattern in her life of making a decision/last straw on people who have hurt her (H1, her father & mother, my mother, a friend/acquaintance or two, now me) to sever the R. Completely. Fini.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/20/09 06:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Gardener
Coach, re: your "How much do you try to read into every word and action your wife makes?", I really don't anymore. I observe, but I don't try to divine anymore.


Truth In Advertising Alert:
Apparently, I still do. grin
End of Truth In advertising Alert

Workin' on it, though.....
Posted By: Faith2010 Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/20/09 07:21 PM
Gee, Gardener...what does that sound so familiar? eek
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/21/09 04:36 PM
Happy Father's Day, guys.

Yeah, I know I said last week that Sundays were gonna be NotMe Day (WAW? Not me, S/Pending D? NotME. Posting? NotMe, etc.). Yet here I am.

W called yesterday 8 hrs. after I left her Birthday Message. I didn't pick up. Called her back just now(after getting back from breakfast w/S 31 and GS 4) smile
Chatted, I tried to get off, she kept keeping me on. She asked about getting on w/mediator or online D. I said I'd rather talk first next time we meet. She said, "well, when I come over, you're never home anymore or just on your way out or something." whistle Told her we'd talk Tues pm. at which point I'll tell her what stilloveshim wisely suggested to me on 6/19 (You wanna do this? Fine. Do it. I'll have no active part in bringing about this D").

Will have to also tell her that house sells when we D. Enough of this "sell it in the spring, I'd like to live there one more time first" crap.

The tendency is to walk away from exchanges like this saying, "Damnit! when is all this db stuff gonna start working?!?

Give me patience, Lord and give it to me right now! mad
Posted By: JoshuaRobert Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/21/09 11:02 PM
be patient Gardener. meditate, pray, get outside. do something to take your mind off of it and and then to think more about it when you've had a chance to cool down. you'll find your way
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 12:28 AM
Thanks JR. I know, I know (though sometimes I don't know until I'm reminded by one of you guys).
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 05:23 AM
Good morning, Gardener..

Our weather has been very soggy, cool with occasional outbursts of sunshine. This inclement weather can adversely effect the mood, too. I know I feel as motivated as a slug in mud at times.

I was married, divorced and still live in the Nutmeg State. With mediation, it's suggested each party have their own lawyer to review the settlement. Find out if there really is a bias with the mediator. Going for an online divorce sounds like a 'we've been through this wringer before, let's get out of this financially sound' type of thinking... a practical divorce.

You asked.. when does the work of DBing stuff kick in? It's when YOU see the difference in yourself. When you find yourself growing, letting go of the little stuff, having perspective, new awarenesses. It's all about you becoming the person you're meant to be in the best possible way.

Your wife knows you didn't want the divorce and moved out anyway. How you feel hasn't changed her mind. You can tell her that she can do all the work, that you don't agree with it (something she already knows). You can say, "I know you want this, I don't agree with it but I want you to be happy." Although its counterintuitive it frees up negative energy on both your parts. She may not know what to do when you drop the rope, stop resisting. You can only do what you feel is right.

Setting your own parameters is proactive. The provision of selling the house with the divorce is a good one.. on many different levels. It's a smack in the face about the consequences of actions. The cost of selling the house (preparation, realtor fees, taxes etc) will be carried by both which is no small thing.

Good luck.. and be as nurturing to your Self as you are to your garden.

*hugs*
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 05:59 AM
Hi, Gypsy,
Originally Posted By: Gypsy
Our weather has been very soggy, cool with occasional outbursts of sunshine. This inclement weather can adversely effect the mood, too. I know I feel as motivated as a slug in mud at times.


I heard today that we've had at least some rain for 30 of the last 32 days. No wonder I'm so bummed

Originally Posted By: Gypsy
You asked.. when does the work of DBing stuff kick in? It's when YOU see the difference in yourself. When you find yourself growing, letting go of the little stuff, having perspective, new awarenesses. It's all about you becoming the person you're meant to be in the best possible way.


I am seeing differences. Wish I could keep the PMA permanent, though (haven't yet). Just having the kind of day where I have to man up and admit to myself that despite all the positives since I found this site three weeks ago, I have been consumed by this for seven months now. I'm exhausted.

Originally Posted By: Gypsy
You can tell her that she can do all the work, that you don't agree with it (something she already knows). You can say, "I know you want this, I don't agree with it but I want you to be happy."


Gotcha. stillloveshim told me something similar, today. I appreciate her and your gentle/firm wording of it. I'll use that Tuesday.

Originally Posted By: Gypsy
The provision of selling the house with the divorce is a good one.. on many different levels. It's a smack in the face about the consequences of actions.


Thing is, first I told her no and then reconsidered when she asked and reversed myself for selfless reasons. Both decisions were pre-db. Just hate to reverse myself again, but it's the right thing to do so I will.

Thank you, Gypsy and hugs right back atcha.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 01:09 PM
Quote:
In retrospect they now seem (to me) to have been potentially repairable, or attempt-to-repair-able at the least.

That "in retrospect" is important, though -- how did WAW characterize them to you at the time and, more importantly, what was your response? Did you agree with her evaluation? That's important because now you aver that in your current sitch your challenges
Quote:
are all repairable/attempt-to-repair-able, IMO.

But WAW does not think so, does she? So to what extent are the issues in THIS marriage like/unlike the issues she related from her PREVIOUS marriage?

Why do I ask? Is it possible that this is a pattern for her? That she consistently avoids doing the work in challenging relationships? That it has been easier for her to run than fight? You yourself describe a
Quote:
pattern in her life of making a decision/last straw on people who have hurt her (H1, her father & mother, my mother, a friend/acquaintance or two, now me) to sever the R. Completely. Fini.

That's very important and could have a profound impact on your DB goals, because if running is her pattern then you have a much, much more challenging task -- you're not simply engaging a temporary (regardless of duration) dissatisfaction or unhappiness with "an" M, you're engaging a core personality trait.

Ironic, isn't it? You might actually have more in common with H1 than you thought! Poor old H1 might have been up here on the DB boards himself, dealing with this same challenge!

But the bigger issue (to me) is this:
Quote:
Re: my D1. Totally different bizzarro sitch (except for my initial pleading. Did lots of pleading.)

That, my friend, is what we call a "Weasel." Just how different was the sitch really -- and I don't mean the facts, because the facts are in a sense irrelevant. I mean in terms of your behavior? Your patterns as an H? (And indeed in terms of your coping behavior -- did you handle it better then than now? Why or why not?)

Give you an example from Le Monde du SmileysPerson. Foreign Female Friend is on her second M, possible second D. What she's finding is that, while she'd long thought of D1 as "no-harm/no-foul," she's reenacting a lot of the same behaviors this time 'round -- and, realizing it, is consciously changing them. (She's very, very good, is FFF, at The Work -- most admirable.)

Patterns. We're all about Patterns, we frail humans. This is an opportunity for you to uncover your patterns. The self-help maven Tony Robbins (divorced though he may be) speaks of patterns a lot. He characterizes Our Way of doing things like an old vinyl LP -- we move by tracks and grooves. So scratch the record, it doesn't play the same way again. One thing DB'ing allows us to do, IMO, is scratch our own records.

So what's your pattern?
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 01:23 PM
Hey Gardener..

Here's how I make decisions now:

If I feel it's the right thing, the answer is yes.
If I know it's the wrong thing, the answer is no.
If I can't decide or waffle, the answer is no.

Some things you know right away. Some things become clearer with time. Writing down your thoughts helps organize them. People rarely balk at organized thinking.

What to do with the house has evolved as time, logistics and reality have seeped in. It's a practical solution. Assets in divorce lose their warm fuzzies and become 'stuff'.

I'm off to be the momma..

*hugs*
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 01:31 PM
SP,

Whew!

You're not gonna make this easy, are ya?

Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
So what's your pattern?

(I highlighted only this one - for now - because it stopped me in my tracks)

Oh, boy. Where to start? And I have started. In IC.
Thanks for your thoughtful input. And the work assignment(s).
Lotta thinking to do. Lotta work to do.
I'll respond later (might take a while).

Thank you.
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 01:38 PM
Gardener,
You do what you have to do for YOU. If she comes back around in the process great.
This is my rule of thumb: I don't do ANYTHING I'm not willing to do for the rest of my life. For example, I like to do laundry. I do his too because that is something I am very content to do forever. I'm grateful I'm healthy enough to do that. I continue to clean the house, because I'll do that for the rest of my life. I play with our son, because I love it and will be more than happy if our son stopped growing and stayed three forever. (He won't.....and that makes me sad. LOL!)

I will not have sex with my husband three times a day every day becasue I'm not willing to do that for the rest of my life. I have things to do no matter how enjoyable that aspect of our relationship is, it's not realistic. I won't be sitting at home waiting for him to get there so I can rub his feet every night. Again, I have things to do and while it might entice him for a while I can't keep that up. I won't let him be disrespectful to me now because I can't ever let that be my way of life......etc.

Understand?

Do what you have to do to make you happy, completely outside of her and what she brings to your life. You have to be happy for you, then you can make a happy life with someone else. She has to make herself happy then she can make a happy life with you. While all of this sounds soooooo simple it's hard. Especially when the WAS is blaming the LBS for all of their unhappiness. Just like you can't make them happy, you can't make them unhappy exclusively either. But someone has to be blamed because surely, they aren't the source of their unhappiness.....

So forget her issues. Work on your own. Do not do things "in hopes it will turn her around". Because when it doesn't you'll be disappointed and backslide and be angry. Do what you need to do with no expectations. When it's you who is the gauge, you are much happier and more successful because you can control you.....nothing and no one else.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 02:20 PM
Thank you. You're right. SmileysPerson is right.

I happened to post a couple of people yesterday that I seem to DB my best when I adopt the stance of "Face it, this marriage is over".

I have to admit that everything I've been doing - pre-db [i]and[/i] since-db - has been almost exclusively to repair my marriage and reconcile with my friend. And the entire post-bomb seven-month history of my situation has been characterized as us (she) growing further and further apart.

Gotta change that. It's hard.

Wonder what would happen if I changed the name of my thread to "Jumping out"?

Think I'll go call IC and sched next telecoach...
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 02:33 PM
Well, don't give up on your friend.....but dont' put so much weight into saving the marriage. That's not your concentration. You should be concentrating on you, because face it, we can all improve and in that process if that saves the marriage great. But if not, you are still the best you you can be.
Very important.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 02:56 PM
Originally Posted By: stillloveshim
dont' put so much weight into saving the marriage. That's not your concentration. You should be concentrating on you


This is the root of my problem. Looking at my recent posts, frame of mind, and life (up, down, up, down, down, down, up, down, etc.) I have been resisting this and have been doing everything solely to save my marriage, dammit.

To borrow 12-step jargon, I think I "hit bottom."
Posted By: Greek Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 03:14 PM
Save YOURSELF. IOW ~~~ being the best Garden Gnome you can be is your job right now. Golly, I sound like Coach smile But seriously, he would say that and he'd be right. This is the only thing you can control right now.

As far as your beloved is concerned - what you can do for her is quietly study her. Listen to her. Recall what she has said in recent past and consider it. Fold these things into your new reality and see what new sense it may make.

Cheers ~
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 03:20 PM
Originally Posted By: Greek
Save YOURSELF. IOW ~~~ being the best Garden Gnome you can be is your job right now. Golly, I sound like Coach smile But seriously, he would say that and he'd be right. This is the only thing you can control right now.

As far as your beloved is concerned - what you can do for her is quietly study her. Listen to her. Recall what she has said in recent past and consider it. Fold these things into your new reality and see what new sense it may make.

Cheers ~


From God's lips through Greek's post (and everyone else's) to my ears.

Thank you.
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 06:34 PM
Not so much hit bottom....you just don't know. You are learning. Just do whatever you have to do to feel good about you. The rest will fall into place. I've seen more progress when I concentrate on me than any other time.
Do it, trust me.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 07:12 PM
Hey, Gypsy
Originally Posted By: Gypsy
If I feel it's the right thing, the answer is yes.
If I know it's the wrong thing, the answer is no.
If I can't decide or waffle, the answer is no.


This is good (esp. the last one)
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/22/09 07:14 PM
Originally Posted By: stillloveshim
Not so much hit bottom....you just don't know. You are learning. Just do whatever you have to do to feel good about you. The rest will fall into place. I've seen more progress when I concentrate on me than any other time.
Do it, trust me.

I will. I do. smile
Posted By: stillloveshim Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/23/09 12:24 PM
How are you?
Posted By: Faith2010 Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/23/09 04:31 PM
How are things today Gardener?
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 01:07 AM
Stilly & Ash,

Thanks for checkin'.
For now, I'm just kinda off the grid and regrouping a bit, but okay. Really.

Wait a minute. W just walked in front door and called out "Hello!" (how weird is this?).

Well, she came to give DIL something upstairs. Talked with DIL, S, and a bit with me.
If every interaction is a chance to show W the improved me, I'm afraid I blew it. Wasn't expecting her at all and I was not really in a mood for it. I was pleasant, though. Just detached. Apparently, she has removed her wedding band. Not that I care; I removed mine several weeks back. Just an observation.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 01:09 AM
Why do you think you blew it? Doesn't sound like it.
Posted By: MrBond Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 01:12 AM
Why were you the first to take off your wedding band?
Posted By: Faith2010 Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 01:32 AM
Hang in there Gardener. I second Giving's question, why do you think you blew it?
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 01:35 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Why do you think you blew it? Doesn't sound like it.


Not sure. Probably because I felt more withdrawn than detached during the ten minutes or so that she was here. Withdrawn had become my style the last year of M, so I think I showed her "More of the same" than "Brand new me".

But, hey, she did show up unannounced. At least to me. Turns out my DIL was expecting her.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 01:41 AM
You said you were polite to her though. Polite + withdrawn = detached. Not splitting hairs, but my definition of withdrawn is aloof or giving her the cold shoulder. If you spoke politely with her in response to her questions, I don't think that is withdrawn.

Remember, we do not want to pursue. It's ok to pull back so long as it is not in a rude or cold way.

I still don't see where you blew anything. Even if you did, which I don't think, it's ok. You're human.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 01:45 AM
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Why were you the first to take off your wedding band?

Stuck,

As I told Coach a few weeks back (don't know if I can quote from that post and paste it to my post to you, so let me type it in verbatim since it was fresher in my mind then).

"taking off the ring was a post-'I want a divorce,' pre-DR/DBing move along the lines of, 'Face it. This is over.You tried everything these past six months while she just moved further and further away,' and it was a bit of a 180 for me..."

I also posted someone that its absence was a constant reminder of my new reality and how bad a sitch this is.

I hadn't taken it off once in these past seventeen years. True.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 01:54 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
You said you were polite to her though. Polite + withdrawn = detached. Not splitting hairs, but my definition of withdrawn is aloof or giving her the cold shoulder. If you spoke politely with her in response to her questions, I don't think that is withdrawn.


You're right, Giving. I feel better. Thanks.

I'm just a bit bummed the past day or so since I admitted (was prompted to admit by the example of fellow DBers) that I've been doing the work not for me, to be the best me, but solely to save my marriage. And because of that:
7 mos since bomb
+6 mos separated
+6 mos double/joint IC (it really wasn't MC)
+1 mo intense, earnest DBing
= I'm really at square one
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 02:14 AM
Gardener,

Just learn from it at this point. I haven't read you thread, but you are recognizing that you have to do the work for no one but YOU. If you will do that, you will get your self confidence and dignity back. You will also find happiness and peace. There are still going to be dark times, but they will be fewer and less severe with time. Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts.

So, you have to take the focus off your W...NOW. It is not going to be easy, and you will slip up, but that's ok. The people here will slap you back into it - I know b/c it happens to me.

If you can make your focus you, you will be a better person, father, and maybe someone you W would be crazy to leave. Again, you cannot control what you W thinks/decides/says/feels. That is a tough thing to accept, but it is a truth. If you do not accept that, then you are only hurting yourself. Stop worrying about what she thinks b/c it does not matter.

As I continue to re-discover myself, I have begun to like me again. The more I like me, the more I realize that if my W does not want a R with me, that's her loss and I know someone will. I don't want my M to end, but I know someone out there will love me and I her if that happens.

Once you focus your changing and effort on the only person you can control - you - you will feel better about yourself. As part of that process, you will come to realize another truth - no matter what, you will be ok. And you will. I am at this point now. That doesn't mean I do not get sad or I am unaffected by what my W says/does. It just means that I do not show her my reaction and that no matter what comes down the pike, I know I will make it.

Last rambling: You have to realize that your old M is done. It's over. And you can never go back to that R - and why would you want to. Becoming the new and improved Gardener is so you can prepare for your next relationship. Like me, I would imagine you want that next R to be with your W. That will be her choice. But the point is, what you feel sad about (and me too) is the sense of loss of an old M that was flawed - all of ours were or we would not be here. That's ok. What we are doing here is to change so we can have a new R that we hope will be with our spouses. Same person, but definitely a new R. But you cannot get there without doing the work...for you.

Sorry so long.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 02:23 AM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Like me, I would imagine you want that next R to be with your W.


Giving,

What a great way to put it (can I steal that?) smile
Your entire post was excellent and I appreciate it greatly. Hang in there
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 02:27 AM
Absolutely. I stole it from several other posts I have read here.

You hang in there too. It's gonna be a long and bumpy ride. And I used to like rollercoasters.
Posted By: Looking_For_Help Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 12:34 PM
Hello Gardener,

Quote from GIMA:
"If you can make your focus you, you will be a better person, father, and maybe someone you W would be crazy to leave. Again, you cannot control what you W thinks/decides/says/feels. That is a tough thing to accept, but it is a truth. If you do not accept that, then you are only hurting yourself. Stop worrying about what she thinks b/c it does not matter."

GIMA could not have said it any better. I believe this quote is the true essence of DBing. This should be our daily mantra as we navigate through these difficult times.

Thanks,
LFH
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/24/09 05:49 PM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Gardener,

Just learn from it at this point. I haven't read you thread, but you are recognizing that you have to do the work for no one but YOU. If you will do that, you will get your self confidence and dignity back. You will also find happiness and peace. There are still going to be dark times, but they will be fewer and less severe with time. Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts.

So, you have to take the focus off your W...NOW. It is not going to be easy, and you will slip up, but that's ok. The people here will slap you back into it - I know b/c it happens to me.

If you can make your focus you, you will be a better person, father, and maybe someone you W would be crazy to leave. Again, you cannot control what you W thinks/decides/says/feels. That is a tough thing to accept, but it is a truth. If you do not accept that, then you are only hurting yourself. Stop worrying about what she thinks b/c it does not matter.

As I continue to re-discover myself, I have begun to like me again. The more I like me, the more I realize that if my W does not want a R with me, that's her loss and I know someone will. I don't want my M to end, but I know someone out there will love me and I her if that happens.

Once you focus your changing and effort on the only person you can control - you - you will feel better about yourself. As part of that process, you will come to realize another truth - no matter what, you will be ok. And you will. I am at this point now. That doesn't mean I do not get sad or I am unaffected by what my W says/does. It just means that I do not show her my reaction and that no matter what comes down the pike, I know I will make it.

Last rambling: You have to realize that your old M is done. It's over. And you can never go back to that R - and why would you want to. Becoming the new and improved Gardener is so you can prepare for your next relationship. Like me, I would imagine you want that next R to be with your W. That will be her choice. But the point is, what you feel sad about (and me too) is the sense of loss of an old M that was flawed - all of ours were or we would not be here. That's ok. What we are doing here is to change so we can have a new R that we hope will be with our spouses. Same person, but definitely a new R. But you cannot get there without doing the work...for you.

Sorry so long.



Ditto on the great post!
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/25/09 01:46 AM
Thank you, giving, looking, and Big John. Hi, Big John.

Just spent the longest amount of time w/W since beginning of March (not counting "MC" meetings) 1 whole hour. True.

W wanted to go to diner to discuss going to mediator. Last minute, I asked, "wanna do it here? (home)" She said , sure! I had three basic things I wanted to say, some mine, some telecoach Dottie's. Before she got here I was starting to practice my preplanned scripts then I thought, stop practicing, you know what you wanna say, you'll be fine, this is W/Friend, fer cryin' out loud. So I relaxed around the house 'til she showed and as-iffed it going very well in my mind a coupla times. And decided I'm only going with thought/plan # 1, tonight, saving #s 2 & 3 for future relaxed hanging out chats, which blessedly, is all this hour was.

She brought up mediator, had I given any thought. I said yes and gave looong answer so I could drop in some thoughts and seeds. I said I've gotten some well-intentioned, but lousy advice from some friends/family, as I'm sure you have. Most just wanna end your pain somehow and wind up giving cheesy, non-R-supporting advice. I don't ask anymore. I have several good resources aside from IC that I go to now (that's you guys) for support. But friends/family still offer the old unsolicited advice anyway and since D Bomb last month, it's all rather binary: "Have you tried everything?", on the one hand and the ever-popular cliche of "Just get on with you're life now," on the other. And I immediately think, "well, how about the status quo?" Why only one or the other? There's only two possible courses, here? I never say it, though, just think it. So, I'll say it to you now...why not just let it be for now? I've just recently come to fully accept that you want to end the that R & M that we had (emphasis on the That - that one - , avoiding D word entirely) cool So I ask you now, maybe it's time for another breather and just live without the whole issue at all for a while? All along you had said "One year, regardless of whatever the outcome, one year of S," so I ask you now, why not stick to the plan and do nothing until December? There's always room for jello, as they say, We can always start the process anytime. Just asking you to consider it, that's all (a phrase she uses often).

She paused and then said, "well where I'm coming from, I just wanna get it all behind me now and get it done". I said,"so you're saying you're just weary of it all, want it to end, I understand." Then she said,"if you could tell me why, give me a concrete reason..." I said, "you want to know more of my rationale for asking this? Well I'm not stalling, hoping you'll change your mind. I understand and accept you want to end that marriage. So do I. It's really ended already, isn't it? I'm working on so many things for me right now and it's exhausting, I don't need another distraction, another issue looming, no matter how amicably we would proceed. Can't articulate any more than that, hope that answered your question somewhat."
W says, "well I suppose we could let it ride at least a month but in the meantime, we could both find out more about mediator process, on-line filing on our own and talk about what we've found in a month. Besides, the whole process will take months anyway, I'm sure."

The old, DB-just-to-save-M me would've been thinking, "YESS!!!" after this.
The new let's-try-to-be-the-best-Gardener-I-can-be (sorry, O'Dog) me quietly thought, 'Well this is certainly going well."

She asked me to go to Radio Shack to begin process of splitting out joint cellphone account and I said, "You don't need me for that, y'know. It's in your name. You have to initiate it before I can do anything," She said" I'know, but c'mon anyway. I'll drive." I replied "Okay, but separate cars." Had a good time looking at RadioShack techy toys, I talked and kidded a lot with one of the salesguys (a big 180 for me) and when they said she had to do it at a Sprint Store we left and she said "Coming with me?" I said 'No, I'm gonna head out " (not home), but I gotta tell you how good it felt to just relax and talk in our living room, and screw around in Radio Shack, Thank you. Take care."

Sorry for the long verbatim post, but for my first attempt at letting go of the outcome, not caring what she thought of my position, trusting without obsessing that I'll DB fairly well (I'm sure I missed a few things), and just attempting a relaxed time w/W (God, do I miss that), it all went so well. And, based on her response to my proposal, I'm assuming (?) she at least has no pressing need to sprint (not a cell phone pun) to the D finish-line.

Feelin' good. I needed that.

Thanks, all. And I apologize that my square-one regrouping in the last few days has precluded my keeping up with and chiming in on your sitches.
I'll be back.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/25/09 01:53 AM
Great job. Sounds like you hadled it wonderfully.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/25/09 12:20 PM
laugh Mojo.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/25/09 03:40 PM
Good job Gardener. Keep heading in the direction you are going. The DBing will get easier with time.

Just a quick comment regarding the mediation talk. I don't know what the law is in Connecticut, but I'm over hear in California and I gotta tell you, if my sitch does go the distance to the big D, I'm not agreeable to mediation. Nor to temporary separation which to me is a mutual agreement to have an open marriage. (Heck, we can't afford it now anyways.) In my mind, both mediation and temporary separation are chicken $**t ways of letting the WAS off the hook to ease into a D. Both options sure look good to my potential WAW. I say no way Jose. If she wants a D so bad, we are going to go through the whole painful and eye opening process. It's not that I am trying to be spiteful so much as to open W's eyes to it all (Reality) and accept some accountability for it all (more Reality). D is nothing like what W is envisioning in her fantasy right now and if we have to spend some money to get this through her head- and reconsider what she is doing to be with OM-then so be it. Just a thought.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/25/09 04:33 PM
BigJohn,

i hear ya. Especially the REALITY part. From what I know, here in the Nutmeg State the Mediator represents whichever spouse contacted/contracted him/her which makes no sense to me (New Oxford American Dictionary:"From Late Latin, mediatus: 'placed in the middle'"). Besides, I simply refuse. She's gonna have to serve me with papers when it comes to that as my approach to final D step will be as Mahatma Gardener: "I wont resist, nor will I assist."

Very fortunately, my sitch has no OM, no animosity, no anger (I was initially a little pissed, though at the out-of-the-blue bomb smirk.)

Just sadness, futility and an apparent reluctance on her part to really discuss R in depth. Withered and died of (resentful) neglect. You'd think a gardener would know better...

Big John, where's you're sitch?
How's it going over at WAW Forum? I haven't spent much time there, lately...gotta check in.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/25/09 04:48 PM
FYI to @Big John and to you Gardener:

Mediation is not "easier" on WAS than litigation. You get a rep, s/he gets a rep. The difference between collaborative divorce and mediation is that in collaborative divorce you both make all the agreements and the lawyers simply do the mumbo-jumbo, but there's no advisory relationships; in mediation, THE mediator (who is the one in the middle), along with each person's legal representative, can advise you as to what the law is (mediators are often retired judges).

If a collaborative process collapses, especially in California, everyone who was a party to it has to resign by law, and nothing that was agreed-to or said in the meetings can be introduced into the subsequent litigation -- the whole thing goes back to Square 1. If a mediation collapses, it's usually only over one or two issues, and those can be litigated with the court accepting all of the outcomes of the mediation and rendering a judgment on whatever issues are "irreconcilable."

Mediation isn't "pro-Walkaway." The advantage is that it is less contentious and cheaper -- the more you and Spouse can agree to, the less the lawyers have to do, and the less time the mediator spends mediating, which = less money.

Go to litigation and every fax, e-mail, and phone call is a cost. Every meeting, filing, status conference is a cost. At my friend's law firm, they charge clients $1 per minute on the phone bill, along with the billing rate of the attorney. He had a 1/2-hour conversation with his lawyer the other day, which cost him $30 for the phone call and $175 for the lawyer. There have been about 50 phone calls so far. Do the math.

And remember -- if you litigate, YOU pay your own guy's fees except in very rare cases.

So take it for what it's worth, but I just had this conversation yesterday.
Posted By: Faith2010 Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/25/09 04:54 PM
Gardener -

Sounds like you did WONDERFUL last night.

Thanks for the encouragement on my post. I'm glad to hear you are getting away for the weekend too. For me, it's a much needed break!
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/25/09 05:39 PM
Sp,
thanks for the info. I don't think Mediation is easy or pro-walkaway S. Matter of fact, I don't know much about it at all (except what you just shared).
All I know is that my response when W brought it up bought me (W gave me) a gift of some time last night. And I still refuse to actively participate in initiating the big D, however and whenever the time comes.

Thanks again.
Posted By: BigJohn Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/25/09 08:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Gardener
BigJohn,

i hear ya. Especially the REALITY part. From what I know, here in the Nutmeg State the Mediator represents whichever spouse contacted/contracted him/her which makes no sense to me (New Oxford American Dictionary:"From Late Latin, mediatus: 'placed in the middle'"). Besides, I simply refuse. She's gonna have to serve me with papers when it comes to that as my approach to final D step will be as Mahatma Gardener: "I wont resist, nor will I assist."

Very fortunately, my sitch has no OM, no animosity, no anger (I was initially a little pissed, though at the out-of-the-blue bomb smirk.)

Just sadness, futility and an apparent reluctance on her part to really discuss R in depth. Withered and died of (resentful) neglect. You'd think a gardener would know better...

Big John, where's you're sitch?
How's it going over at WAW Forum? I haven't spent much time there, lately...gotta check in.


Gardener,

I'm with you, I have told my W very clearly that I will not aid and abet in any effort by her to D. Everybody in her life that matters is telling her to give her H and kids a chance and drop the OM. She acknowledges that in her head, it is the right thing to do, but she just doesn't want to. So if we wind up going down the path to D, it's gonna be ALL on her. I've accepted 100% accountability for my 50% of the relationship issues and I'm diligently working on improving myself in those and other areas. If we go to D, she will have to accept 100% accountability for it along with all of the repercussions.

I've got similar neglected her needs issues with my W as well and can understand how that can deaden her feelings for me aside from the current EA. But with patience, time, hard work along with some other things those feelings can come back. But she has to have the courage and willingness to work with me and she doesn't right now.

The WAW forum is great, Sandi2 is the best and has given me some really good feedback. I haven't figured out how to create a link to my original post as "My Sitch". My first post is still available and contains a summary of my sitch if your interested.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/25/09 09:19 PM
Thanks, John. Got caught up on you.
I've been doing a revamp after a coupla days of examining my detaching, working-on-me-for-me ( or lack thereof). An important step for me that I was play-acting at but not doing. Am working on it. As you no doubt know, it's not like a light switch.

BTW, I saw reference to depression in one or two of your posts. I was diagnosed last year. Went on meds. Then researched (I'm nutrition-oriented in most things). I found the book, The Ultra Mind Solution and recommend it very highly. Did wonders and I'm on my way off the meds now. Book explains neurotransmiters. Gives simple quizzes to identify which of yours may be sub-par and why. Answer is diet, but more importantly specific amino acid supplements to feed specific neurotransmitters. Can't recommend enough.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/25/09 10:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Gardener
Sp,
thanks for the info. I don't think Mediation is easy or pro-walkaway S. Matter of fact, I don't know much about it at all (except what you just shared).
All I know is that my response when W brought it up bought me (W gave me) a gift of some time last night. And I still refuse to actively participate in initiating the big D, however and whenever the time comes.

Thanks again.


Hi Gardener. I've taken a somewhat similar stance when it comes to D. I will do nothing to make it easy. I don't want S and I don't want D.

I love H, will do anything to work on M, but file legal papers of any kind and everything changes.

H wanted the S, which is a 1 year period in NY, then either party could file for a no-fault D. He claimed he wanted to try and rebuild a R. I told him he was taking an awful big risk if that was what he wanted, because after a year I might just be the one to file. (Deer in the headlights look.)

Also, S means you have to come up with a S agreement. I don't agree. I don't have to agree. I don't have to agree to anything. Said as sweet as pie with honey dripping off of it.

My advice, get out there and go fishing. You will be away and she will have no idea where. And catching a few lunkers will put you in the best mood, I promise.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/26/09 03:27 PM
Reading Thinker's thread about ann'y. Good ideas re: flowers, card wording, roadtrip package etc.

I used to always give flowers to my wife
1) Anniversary,
2) For no reason, and
3) Whenever I picked her up at the airport. It always seemed right, like one should be greeted with flowers upon returning from a trip: You're HOME!! laugh Plus, I felt as special and lucky being the only man at arrivals holding a bouquet as she felt being the only woman at the gate getting flowers.

Last time, though, was last month at the airport. I saw her roll her eyes when she saw them. Asked me to hold them on the way to the car and within an hour thereafter (I knew it, I felt it coming based on her reaction to the flowers) dropped the D bomb. eek
Yep, Gardener's done with flowers for now.

So, our Anniversaries are tomorrow (17th Wedding) and Sunday (18th of when we met). Since we had our longest, most comfortable, time together Thursday in a long time and I wasn't sure what, how, or if I should acknowledge, I opted for a small, simple Thank You card. Blank inside where I wrote,

"Wishing you warm memories this weekend. Always, Gardener"

Then...then...I did either a great DB or a Horrible DB:I slipped a separate sheet of note paper in the card on which I wrote:

W,
While I did not want this path, it has proven to be one
of reflection, hard work, and growth.
I realize I had become more of a boy than a man over time
I am a changing man, now
And I'm...grateful to you for this.

Always,
Gardener

Ouch! Ouch! Wrong thing to do! Wrooong thing to do! Mayday! Mayday! Wince. Wince. Aaack! Obsess. Obsess.

Breathe. Breathe. Just breathe.
The right thing to do.
The truth.

I remember thinking, saying throw me a bone here!, Give me some hope! in my pleading days. Since we rarely spend time together (her choice:"Just leave me alone.") and she probably doesn't see changes, thought I'd throw her a bone (lousy term, actually)...Gardener felt he should offer her a flower of truth and acknowledgement (sappy?)

Truth. Happy Anniversaries, Friend.

So, now as that envelope continues snailmailing to her apartment for delivery today, opening and reading tomorrow (she'll probably wait til the actual date to open it), with these wonderful once life-affirming, love-proclaiming two very special dates approaching, Gardener is going to do what any man would do.

Gonna hide out in the mountains for two days. wink

See ya Sunday, guys.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/26/09 03:48 PM
Thanks, wifey.

And I am outta here in about 30 minutes. The Adirondacks are a'callin (see my latest post on my sitch)...hope I did/wrote the right thing (I did the right thing for me, at least).Would love to know what you think.

Headin' to the mountains and I'm even leaving all my parentheses home, too. So there. smile
Posted By: Faith2010 Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/28/09 10:41 PM
How was your weekend Gardener?
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/28/09 11:51 PM
Ash,
My weekend was Great! Thank you.
Great hikes (the woods are full of answers), met some nice people. Found a small, cute family owned "motel" (12 small immaculate bungalows). On one long hike, I was in for almost six hours. On one I climbed a 2200 ft. mountain to the summit, thinking more than once "I might be a bit out of my league with this one". But I made it! Up and down: four grueling, exhilarating hours! Good for the soul.

Re: my last post on my sitch. My wife did wait until Saturday to open the anniversary/ies card and note. Left me a voicemail when I didn't pick up while hiking:
(Sobbing)"I wasn't gonna cry." Continuing to cry throughout: "I'm calling to say thank you for the note. It meant a lot to me to receive it, today of all days. Have a good weekend. Goodbye,"

Emotion. I haven't seen/heard her express emotion like that in several months.

So I called her back about 8 hrs later. "Got your message, didn't want to let this day pass without calling, "Happy Anniversary", etc. She was cool and detached as I expected she would. While her emotional vm wasn't a true connection {or was it?}, she sure enough pulled back after it like Michele says in the DR book.
All in all, I feel good about it: I did the right thing, for me, and only because it was the right thing (no agenda, no expectation) and, apparently, I touched her.

Seems to have been quite a lot happening on Newcomers the last two days or so. And some more newbies. I've only caught up with a couple. Will try to do more tomorrow. Early bed for me, tonight.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/29/09 01:37 PM
Okay, I am unashamedly bumping this up to get some feedback on my note to wife on Friday and her vm and subsequent response(s) Saturday (wedding anniversary). I plan to just pull back to DBbusiness-as-usual without reading into this.

Except I do have to email her today to inform her about the passing of a cousin of mine. If she wishes to go to service/funeral she can ask. I'll wing it from there.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/29/09 02:00 PM
Quote:
Great hikes (the woods are full of answers)

Funny you should say that. Foreign Female Friend from my sitch, who's 20+ months into MLC+WAH, says the same thing -- she walked for 3 hours t'other day.

As a City Guy, "wildlife" for me = pigeons and squirrels and "the woods" = that scrawny tree next to the fire hydrant. Taverns. They're full of answers, too. And you don't have to worry about grasshoppers. Or scorpions. Or snakes-in-the-grass. Well, not the "living" kinds anyway! laugh

I think your basic insight -- "DBbusiness-as-usual without reading into this" -- is absolutely where you need to be. You did your thing, sent your note, she returned not-discouraging responses. Cool. Let it ride and see what happens.
Posted By: Faith2010 Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/29/09 02:43 PM
Gardener-

The note you wrote, it was great. I don't think anything was wrong with writing it as long as you didn't have any expectations regarding her reaction. As far as her VM, I think she was genuine and probably feels remourse for the entire sitch. But, as we all know, they are not in their "right minds" thus her cool response when you had called back 8 hours later. I'd love to tell you that it's a positive sign but you know we should not read into these things. Encouraging, perhaps. I think you are on the right path with the DBing. Continue to do things for YOU. grin

I am sorry to hear about your cousin. I think the email notifying her is good but don't invite. Maybe she'll offer to come, maybe she won't.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/29/09 02:48 PM
Gardener,

You're much more succinct than I am; took me 23 paragraphs to say the same thing... It elicited the same two responses...

Don't read anything into it...

Especially if you feel it was right for YOU...

-AlexEN
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/29/09 03:01 PM
Ash, SP, Alex,

Thanks. I needed (all) that.

It has also been an on-going, two-day exercise in - and gauge of my detaching.

"Oh, boy, that was great! Response! Emotion! Progress!"

"You said what you wanted to say. You know that she responded - and how she responded - Saturday morning and Saturday afternoon. That's all. It indicates nothing. It just is."

Gardener talks to Gardener. A lot.

An M/R book w and I read once had a gem, a nugget, I always remember: "If you can't video/record it, you can't comment on it, it's just projecting/mind-reading, judgement." (paraphrase).
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/29/09 03:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Gardener
Thanks, wifey.

And I am outta here in about 30 minutes. The Adirondacks are a'callin (see my latest post on my sitch)...hope I did/wrote the right thing (I did the right thing for me, at least).Would love to know what you think.

Headin' to the mountains and I'm even leaving all my parentheses home, too. So there. smile



I think the note was sweet and effective. No 2x4's here.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/30/09 12:31 AM
Hello Gardener..

Finally.. we're having gorgeous weather!

"No expectations or intentions" is a very valuable catchphrase I learned from a friend here. It helps immensely when dealing with new (and old) situations.

I've slowly learned to listen to the voice within and my bullsh*t meter. It's trial and error with successes one baby step at a time.

*hugs*
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/30/09 01:57 AM
Hey, stilly!

Anyone hear from stillloveshim lately?
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/30/09 02:50 AM
Okay, oh wise ones,

Before going to bed I have to vent a few potentially damaging ideas that have been rattling around in my head all day. Advance, preventive 2x4s requested.

Keep in mind that my sitch has been a no-animosity, no anger sitch since the bomb.

Even though we had that record-setting good one-whole-hour-together talk last Thursday, and that my Ann'y Card And Note clearly touched her this past weekend and I am DBing fair-ta-middlin' lately, and, most importantly, I'm feeling good about myself...I want to talk to her! I mean really talk. Except for last Thursday it is now seven months with precious little dialog at all, including the you-stay-on-your-side-of-the-fence,-you-stay-on-yours MC debacle. Reliable source tells me she's confused, in a lot of pain, doesn't know what to do.

Early on, Stillloveshim told me she doesn't think ours is a Last Resort sitch and twice told me to get face-to-face with her, how about a benign date, etc.

Even last week when I asked her to hold off on filing for a while/take a breather, her first response was "Well, if you could give me something more concrete as to why you want to..."

God forgive my desperate corniness, I even thought of creating a new/different email account/name on GMail and humorously sending her an obviously-me Jimmy-Buffet-like-If-You-Like-Pina-Coladas email to start...something. some dialog.

She's hurt. She's insecure. She's good.
She's my friend.
And, yeah, I'm mind-reading here, but I know her. And I bet sure-as-s&%t, she's totally mis-interpreting my DBing to date.

Think I had another half-assed idea today but, thankfully, I've forgotten what that one was.

I'm going to bed soon. I will dutifully submit to the barrage of 2x4s in the morning.

Thank you.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/30/09 03:58 AM
Hey Gardener..

Here's a link for a guy, minkerman, who kept his focus and stayed real. If you're interested you can follow his trail from devastation to renewing his marriage with the love of his life.

His wife left, not for another man, but because the relationship was no longer right. He's a good person to learn from.

*hugs*

As far as the thoughts rattling in your brain.. I always go to my mantra..

If it seems right, the answer is yes.
If it feels wrong, the answer is no.
If I waffle or can't decide, the answer is no.

Additionally.. the 48 hour rule is helpful.. if it's a good idea now, it will still be a good one in 48 hours.

And.. I'm a great believer in listening to the inner voice.. not the hyper yikes defensive fearful one.. but the voice that brings calm.

It's all you.. what works, what doesn't.

*hugs*
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 06/30/09 05:09 AM
Gypsy,
Thank you, thank you.

Minkerman's story was great to read. Did me a lot of good. As I read the beginning, I was thinking, "this is going great, but he's calling too much, sharing too much, etc." and sure enough he later came to the same conclusions. DBing works.

My wife has gone completely dark since reacting so emotionally to my short, sincere ann'y note (not even responding to my email today telling her my cousin passed away). Just as Michele says to expect after a meaningful connection. That's what I've been reacting today and I now realize that while it may be a good sign, may be a bad sign, I don't know but it is evidence of DBing being "right" and I am on the right track, albeit temporarily painful again.

I will wait 48 hours. I am waffling, so, no to these ideas for now.

I may try one of my ideas or suggest a No-R-Discussion meeting, coffee, hike, whatever...but not until she comes back out again and contacts me.

Your post, Minkerman, and continued reading of Learned Optimism (an eye-opener) has made my (so far sleepless) night.

Hugs back to you, friend.
Thanks again
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/01/09 05:12 AM
So, 24 hours after I email my wife about my cousin's passing, she calls this morning. I didn't answer, so vm was "I'm sorry to hear about Cousin. Just wanted to tell you that."
Fine. Several hours later an email: How's CousinW? How old was Cousin, again? Are you going to wake today/tonight? Going to funeral tomorrow?
I email replies to each ques. Nothing more.

Two hours later, another VM: "Hi, Gardener? It's me, W. (why is the ol' "hi, it's me," no good anymore?) smirk I should see CousinW. Always liked her. She must be so upset. So if you want me to go with you*, please let me know)"
* This is her way of asking for anything ("Do you want to take the garbage out?", "Do you want to go buy eggs for me?"). It has been the source of humor, endearment, confusion, and frustration at different times over the years.

I call her back: "Hi, W, it's me. smile i got your message and if you want to go tonight and if you want to console CousinW, then I'd love to have your company". We make arrangements. I add, "One condition: no R, M, S, D, Us, or The Past talk. Let's just do this. Tonight. Together."
Fine. And so, for a new seven-month record-breaking 3 1/2 hours(breaking last week's all-time record of one whole hour), we were...together.
I was cheerful. Dressed to the nines/new - and different style - clothes. Glad to be with her. Small talk. I talked less. Idle chatter. Sons/daughter/grandchildren talk. No Us talk. Not really any Me talk or questions on either side, either, but that's okay. Gave her cheap, but lovable $1.09 cute gift she likes that I picked up in Adirondacks this weekend.

My first goal this past month was W will want to/ask to spend time together.
Last week she wanted to for an hour. This week , via her escalating/roundabout VM-email-VM (to which I didn't bite, didn't ask her to come), she asked to spend time with me.

Baby steps. Small movement. Right direction. Apparently sincere.

Happy Gardener. Happy, happy Gardener.

Next, I will ask her to come to Fireworks with me this weekend We-especially she- love fireworks (both kinds) wink

Good night.
Goodnight.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/02/09 10:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Gardener


Baby steps. Small movement. Right direction. Apparently sincere.

Happy Gardener. Happy, happy Gardener.



Keep things low key. Don't be the fool that rushes in. Little butterfly wing of progress, most notably with you laying down the no R talk boundaries.

Don't over-react. Cool as a cucumber.

And make the invite if you want to go, great, if you don't that is fine, going anyways.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/02/09 10:54 PM
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Keep things low key. Don't be the fool that rushes in. Little butterfly wing of progress, most notably with you laying down the no R talk boundaries.

Don't over-react. Cool as a cucumber.

And make the invite if you want to go, great, if you don't that is fine, going anyways.


Thanks, Wifey. I am. Real low key. Often resisting the urge to say "Let's talk." since we really haven't. In months. Y'see, sometimes I want to do things differently since I think our sitch is so different. No anger, bitterness, etc...just...just withered. But then I remember Gypsy reminding me of the 48 hour rule and I invoke it.

Am reading Walk Out Woman, by Steve Stephens and Alice Gray, recommended by Sandi2 a couple of days ago. It is great. It is sad. More scales falling from my eyes.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/02/09 11:20 PM
Hey Gardener,

Quote:
Am reading Walk Out Woman, by Steve Stephens and Alice Gray, recommended by Sandi2 a couple of days ago. It is great. It is sad. More scales falling from my eyes.


I am starting that book tonight too. I am concerned it will show me some things I may not want to find out.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/03/09 01:25 AM
Hi, gima,

Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Hey Gardener,

Quote:
Am reading Walk Out Woman, by Steve Stephens and Alice Gray, recommended by Sandi2 a couple of days ago. It is great. It is sad. More scales falling from my eyes.


I am starting that book tonight too. I am concerned it will show me some things I may not want to find out.


So far I have been shown much I didn't want to find out. But needed to.
And it is all strangely...uplifting. A saying I read in one of the many books I've read since my wife left is: "Speak to be known. Listen to know."
Unfortunately, my dear friend isn't speaking right now. So I read to know. And this book is helping me know her and what she may have been/is going through a little.

I'd be interested in sharing insights while/after reading it.

Thanks.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/03/09 01:34 AM
Quote:
I'd be interested in sharing insights while/after reading it.


That would be great. I will start it tonight. Pretty beat, and I am using that as an excuse for an early night to read. Beats waiting for W to bring up listing agreement for house...if she is going to.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/03/09 10:45 AM
So, today is one month since I had my first telephone coaching session after finding this site two days prior. An appropriate time for some random reflection on What I've Learned, What I've Done, Where I am.

What I've Learned
I can do 180s
I can (begin to) GAL
A lot about WASs
My wife didn't leave me. She left a bad situation.
My wife anguished over her decision more than I'll ever know and for longer than I could ever guess.
My wife's pain of staying came to outweigh her pain of leaving
My wife is confused, still in pain and doesn't know what to do.
The 48-Hour rule re: implementing (usually half-assed) ideas.
Indecision/waffling = "No." "Don't."
I "get" DBing. And I can Help and support others in same.
I can detach. And detach lovingly.
"As iffing" - true "As-iffing", per Michelle, works.
That my wife's total lack of any movement or follow-through since D Bomb 5/13 means...something.
I don't have to be understanding, sympathetic, or helpful in any effort to end this marriage (thank you, Greek).
I do not have to be an active participant in any of same (thank you, stillloveshim)
"I will not resist. But neither will I assist" (thank you, me).
And so much, much more.

What I Have Done
I don't pursue/answer all calls/return them right away/let my wife end interactions first, etc.
Read my wife's words her actions far, far less. Almost not at all.
Honestly don't care what my wife thinks of my (lovingly detached) words or actions.
Actually begun improving me for me alone.
Got my wife to ask to spend time with me. Twice.
Got my wife to agree to postpone for one month any and all talk of Mediator, D, process.
Let go of the outcome in all interaction with my wife.
Resumed old, lapsed hobbies, reached out to old, semi-lapsed friendships, joined a club, went away for a weekend by myself, climbed a mountain.
Sent my wife an appropriate anniversary card with a short, from-deep-in-my-heart note that touched her and evoked the first real emotion she's expressed to me in months.
Stopped inhabiting/perpetuating my Victim Mentality
Stopped discussing sitch with others ("So - how are you?" "Better and better, thanks."
Stopped referring to my wife on this board as W, WAW, She, Her (She and Her okay only after initial reference as my Wife). She is my Wife. She is my Friend.
Begun letting go of the past.
And so much, much more.

Where I Am
In a far better place than before.

Not bad for one month. I'll take it.

Thank you to all you good, kind, hurting, struggling, enduring, persevering, selfless, generous DBers out there.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/03/09 11:02 AM
Hey Gardener..

Feeling grateful and blessed for all you have is a beautiful thing.

*hugs*
Posted By: Faith2010 Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/03/09 02:14 PM
Gardener -

It sounds like you are doing great. Any news regarding taking your wife to the fireworks?
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/03/09 05:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Ashlee
Gardener -

It sounds like you are doing great. Any news regarding taking your wife to the fireworks?


Thanks. I am doing well. Great is a-lot-of-work-on-me down the road.

Tuesday night was a big step. Because of that and since I've been waffling on it, I've decided No on the fireworks. I lovingly believe this weekend should be her first Fourth Of July in 18 years with either No Fireworks or Fireworks With No Gardener.

I'm sure gonna pick a town and go see 'em, though. smile
Posted By: sgctxok Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/03/09 08:47 PM
Originally Posted By: stillloveshim
First and foremost--no matter how dark it gets, never never lay down and die.
Second, don't believe anything they say and only half of what they do.
Make it clear to her that you are not interested in divorce or anything that will make that happen. If you are not interested in going to a mediator, tell her simply. No. I will not go to a mediator. I will continue to live my life but I will not help you in ending soemthing I think is wonderful and has the potential to be even more wonderful....the envy of the neighborhood.
Forget the past. Concentrate on you today so that maybe she'll be a part of your future.
You can have your freak out days. But I do PROMISE YOU, there will be more but then you manage, you get a hold of the situation and you'll be amazed at how you'll be handling all of this not that far from now.
Don't think that because she seems to be talking divorce that you have to help and be nice about it. You do have to be nice, but you don't have to help her with this crazy idea of D. Make it clear, you're not interested in that.



I love this advice
Posted By: sgctxok Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/03/09 08:53 PM
Ok...I've just read then skimmed fairly fast...but I do not think you are in the LRT....AND I want to tell you Dottie is an amazing coach...so I'm glad you're with her. I've seen a lot of her advice (and Laurie's) and some of the others advice....and I don't think you can lose.


I think you really do 'get it' about DBing.

One thing I don't understand, is WHAT ARE YOUR WIFE's COMPLAINTS about you. I think your wife is ALMOST in a 'too little too late' position and really hopes you will turn it around for the both of you. This does not mean everything is your fault...but right now...to her...it is, so 'it's where you live' right now.


(I'm sure Dottie got that out of you and her advice is on target...but without us really knowing those complaints...most of our advice here is useless....so please take it as such...except the don't give up parts. ) I didn't see where youdid (probably because I was skimming some of the posts)...did you put your ring back on?
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/03/09 09:47 PM
Originally Posted By: sgctxok
I think you really do 'get it' about DBing.


Thanks. Am trying. But perhaps I'm concentrating a bit too much on LRT & not the rest of DR (?)

Originally Posted By: sgctxok
One thing I don't understand, is WHAT ARE YOUR WIFE's COMPLAINTS about you.


I'm too negative. I'm too helpful: Ineffective MC said I'm "helpful to death". Talk too much MC said I am guilty of "unbridled self expression"
I'm moody. Get angry too easily. Too clingy.
I believe problem started when my mother came to live with us in 2000 when my dad died. She moved out in 2004. Too late. That was a constant-stress disaster.
Problem compounded when I began to drink/self-medicate and buzz-out nightly for about 2 1/2 years. I stopped with the Rational Recovery program. Never missed it. No effort, no white knuckling, no nothing, Wife went to Al-Anon and then her IC started saying I was a Dry Drunk because I chose a path other than AA and IC did not support her staying with me. Maybe coincidence, maybe because I stopped self medicating in Feb '06 but around late '07 (hindsight/retrospect - not sure exactly) I became depressed. Most of '08 I was under what I called a slow, all-encompassing black glacier. Didn't know I was obviously suffering depression. neither did she. She dropped S ("a respite") Bomb in late November. I was diagnosed 1 week later by MC and family Doctor. She canceled S. Went to see her IC the next day and that night the S was back on. I think in the last few years, events, stresses, - and, most importantly I - wore her down.
Regarding her, the MC said she's affected by physically abusive mother and father (father died May last year). She's walled off, shut down. Said she's "in a tremendous amount of emotional pain. Like a person with Gout: touch them ever so slightly in the affected area and they experience excruciating pain. Only hers is emotional Gout."

i know I'm over-answering your question, but I'm almost done. We both have a style of keeping things in (disappointments), avoiding conflict like the plague and, therefore building up resentments.

Originally Posted By: sgctxok
I think your wife is ALMOST in a 'too little too late' position and really hopes you will turn it around for the both of you. This does not mean everything is your fault...but right now...to her...it is, so 'it's where you live' right now.


Yes. I've said it's like she finally gave me a wake up call and when I began to wake up, immediately shouted, "Too late!" I don't know what she wants or hopes. Everything was not my fault, but I've copped repeatedly to being the Major Offender and Major Source Of Stress


Originally Posted By: sgctxok
without us really knowing those complaints...most of our advice here is useless....so please take it as such...except the don't give up parts. I didn't see where you did (probably because I was skimming some of the posts)...did you put your ring back on?


I never gave up. Got pretty down a couple of times. I did not put my ring back on. About 3 weeks after I took it off, I noticed she took hers off.

Fo more reasons than I know, and possibly for reasons other than me, my wife just shut down late last year.

I only wish she would talk to me.

You're the fourth person to tell me that mine doesn't sound like a Last Resort Sitch. Even Dottie says it's probably not but has advised I use Last Resort Tecniques along with others.

There you go: open book.
Thanks.
Posted By: sgctxok Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/04/09 01:11 AM
This is WONDERFUL information. And it's all just information right now...I don't think it's over.


So you're half and half. Stop clingy, don't worry about talking. Just listen when she does.

Women want action, even though they also want to talk. We're complicated. That's ok...because YOU're SMART. And Motivated. And capable.

If you can stop drinking...you can stop the depression.


Alcoholism and depression have some nutritional things in common.... B12, Folate, Magnesium deficiencies.

Without medicines...(and you may need meds)....there are some things you can try immediately:


The vitamins listed above, probably also some D (or sunshine) and exercise. I think you said you were doing that or that you had lost weight. It's major to beating depression.

Initiate a little. I hope the fireworks thing works out.

You probably said...but I missed...what you did for her B.



We women WANT heroes, we want strong men...your W pointed that out....and you ARE that.....you just have had some glitches.


Put your ring on with the first positives you get from her. And don't take it off unless you divorce. Start doing MORE of the things you two love.


Now...about YOU again. When life was exciting to you...what were you doing, what were you saying?



*****

Chitchat:

I understand something some things about depression and alcoholism and grief...personally. I've lost both my parents, had 2 miscarriages, a divorce....have lost close friends to death. I'm only slightly younger than you.

As we get older, and you probably know....these things weigh heavier on us. We start thinking about what the rest of our life is going to look like....we want it to be as good as possible. I'm sure your wife is thinking about that too.

This can be such positive exciting thing that you two have a chance to turn this around. And I really believe you are going to.....And this NEXT HALF of your lives will be so amazing.

peace out,
sg
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/04/09 01:25 AM
Hey Gardener:

Quote:
Problem compounded when I began to drink/self-medicate and buzz-out nightly for about 2 1/2 years.


Our similarities continue. A big "me too" on this one. Was a contributor in my sitch.

FYI, I had to start a new thread b/c my other one locked. New one is called "Gotta Keep Trying."
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/04/09 03:17 AM
Originally Posted By: sgctxok
So you're half and half. Stop clingy, don't worry about talking. Just listen when she does.

Clingy long over, My wife doesn't want to talk about our sitch. At all.

Originally Posted By: sgctxok

If you can stop drinking...you can stop the depression.


Depression stopped. You're preaching to the (nutritionally fanatical) choir, here. My solution was B Complex, B5 (stress), Magnesium, specific amino acids for specific, test-proven depleted neurotransmitters. I initially went on meds immediately for urgent relief. Am now weaning off as per Dr. because of the positive effect of the supplements. With the depression lifted, at least now when I am sad...I know why. During depression only two things bothered me: !) Absolutely nothing, and 2) absolutely everything crazy

Originally Posted By: sgctxok
The vitamins listed above, probably also some D (or sunshine), exercise.

I get plenty of both (hey, you know your stuff, here, don't you?)

For my wife's birthday I called and lm: "Happy Birthday. Whatever you need for this to be a great birthday, is what I wish for you."

Originally Posted By: sgctxok
We women WANT heroes, we want strong men...your W pointed that out....and you ARE that.....you just have had some glitches.

I am and I sure have.

Originally Posted By: sgctxok
Put your ring on with the first positives you get from her. And don't take it off unless you divorce.


This may be a good idea: to put it back on in response to... I'll give that some thought.

Originally Posted By: sgctxok
Start doing MORE of the things you two love.


We don't do anything together. Her choice.
But I will think about Fireworks tomorrow or perhaps a hike soon. We both love that and a while back my wife did say she hasn't hiked since separation. She's afraid of going in alone.

Originally Posted By: sgctxok
Now...about YOU again. When life was exciting to you...what were you doing, what were you saying?


Okay, short answer. We lived in a condo and did things and went places. Simple stuff. We've owned an old farmhouse for the last eleven years. Realized/admitted a while before bomb that the house takes every spare minute and every spare dollar hence we weren't doing much anymore and had decided to sell it this year.

Originally Posted By: sgctxok
This can be such positive exciting thing that you two have a chance to turn this around. And I really believe you are going to.....And this NEXT HALF of your lives will be so amazing.


Thank you for that.

And thank you for your concern and effort.
Posted By: gucci loafer Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/04/09 02:33 PM
Hi Gardener.
I read through your situation and what has transpired since you started posting.


Let's start here....

I believe there is someone else she is interested in.
If I am correct (and I believe that I am) then you need to change your game plan up. She is showing many of the signs that a woman shows when they are interested in someone else or having an affair. The biggest hint is that she seems to be "pushing the divorce."

The reason women push a divorce is that they want to pursue someone else and they think that the divorce relieves them of guilt. OR. The person she is interested in is giving her the impression that if she gets divorced that the relationship will move forward.


That is my take. It is the thing that makes sense. If there was not someone else, then she would be more open about giving this time. She would be saying that she wanted to separate for now and see if her feelings changed and yada yada yada......

The only other reason I have seen when they rush the divorce is when there has been physical or verbal abuse. And even then, they don't rush it as fast as the woman who is interested in someone else. She is lying to you that she "just wants to get it over with" That is a smokescreen for something else.

I think you need to do some investigation to find out the truth here. AND that does not mean asking her. She will deny. They almost always do. The signs are there.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/04/09 06:04 PM
Gucci,

Hi. Thanks for taking the time to read up.

Originally Posted By: gucci loafer
I believe there is someone else she is interested in.


I'm going to disagree. I know her.
Could I be wrong? Yes.

Originally Posted By: gucci loafer
She is showing many of the signs that a woman shows when they are interested in someone else or having an affair. The biggest hint is that she seems to be "pushing the divorce."


But she's not pushing, Gucci.. The Bomb was 11/2/08. My wife referred to it as a one year "respite" at that point. She moved out 12/03/08, asked for a divorce 5/13/09, then said nothing about it for over a month and then agreed to shelve it for still another month. That'll be almost eight months at that point.

I think my wife thinks there's no hope...yet she hopes she's wrong. (did that make sense?)

Originally Posted By: gucci loafer
The signs are there.


What other signs do you see that I'm missing?

And, Gucci, I'm not trying to argue, here, by any means. In fact, the dialog, the back and forth helps, me to think and re-examine aspects of all this.

Thanks.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/04/09 07:16 PM
Originally Posted By: sgctxok
Initiate a little. I hope the fireworks thing works out.


sg,
I went to see fireworks alone last night. It was great despite being alone and it was terrible because I was alone. So, all in all, quite normal.

This afternoon I called my wife and said, "I'm going to the town fireworks tonight and I'm calling to invite you to come with me." Seems a bit stiff as I put into printed form here, but it went well. She said, "Yes." immediately (fact), enthusiastically (fact + mind-reading?), and sounded kind of...relieved (total mind-reading, here).
She chatted a lot on the phone. I didn't even bother trying the "hang up first deal". It was good. 12 minutes on the phone.

So, I plan to be with my wife, to be comfortable, no egg-shell-walking and to have a little fun together. Nothing more.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/04/09 07:21 PM
Gardener,

Thats good news. Again, our similarities persist - I am going to fireworks tonight with my W and D. I do not think my W is as interested as yours though. Anyway, we can both make the most of it.

Good luck.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/04/09 08:26 PM
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Gardener,

Thats good news. Again, our similarities persist - I am going to fireworks tonight with my W and D. I do not think my W is as interested as yours though. Anyway, we can both make the most of it.

Good luck.


Amen. Good luck. Enjoy.
Posted By: Faith2010 Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/04/09 09:24 PM
Gardener-

Good luck tonight. Have no expectations - just relax and have fun - like you said. Show her the man you have become. grin
Posted By: Orich Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/04/09 10:00 PM
My W is with her family tonight, and I am with mine. The boys are with me. She didn't want to come here I think because she doesn't want to be near my folks now that they know that w told me she was done. She still hasn't told her family there are any problems btw.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/05/09 03:38 AM
Originally Posted By: Gardener
So, I plan to be with my wife, to be comfortable, no egg-shell-walking and to have a little fun together. Nothing more.


Well, two out of three ain't bad: quite comfortable, not an eggshell underfoot. Fun? I had a blast. Not together, though.

Picked my wife up at her apartment. Pleasant enough ride to town field. I mention that S, DIL and Grandson are here somewhere. Walking two minutes from car to field she twice comments that "this isn't a date, you know". Okay. Uh-huh (on the ride home later, a better answer comes to me: Wish I had simply said, "I know; I didn't ask you on one." Ah, hindsight).

She asks if S and DIL know she's going to be there. I told her that they don't even know I'm coming, let alone both of us. To which my wife replies that she doesn't want them to think this is a date. DIL sees us, expresses surprise to see either of us and says, "it's so nice to see you guys together." My wife replies - what else? - "This isn't a date. We're just here for the fireworks." Methinks thou doth protest too much, I think, Bardly.

She's doing what I can only describe as a "polite acquaintance" approach toward me and is her usual warm, effervescent self to the rest of the family all evening.

Wife and I go to get food, acquaintance-like. After eating, I mention that I'm going down to check out the band and the crowd "if anyone wants to join me." So I go alone. Spent the next couple of hours enjoying S, DIL, GS, the crowd, games, atmosphere. And I had a great time.

I sat near her on the blanket as the fireworks show was on. We always both get so identically, over-the-top kiddy-giddy at fireworks and tonight was no different.

i drove my wife back to her new home and came home with three recurring thoughts during the drive:
- That is one serious, well-constructed wall she's built for herself.
- I feel pitifully sorry for her choosing to live behind it
- I don't want to be with the woman behind the wall

I think I'm better off returning to Last Resort Techniques. I was pondering dropping them for a while and trying the other DB stuff, but, no.

If I were to violate the rule of do not initiate any relationship discussions, I would ask her what she meant exactly in her crying voicemail response to the Anniversary Note last weekend: "I'm calling to say thank you for the note. It meant a lot to me to receive it. Today of all days."

But I'm not going to yet.
Posted By: sgctxok Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/05/09 04:28 AM
You did a GREAT JOB! Esp with the blanket thing.


Good feelings lead to more good feelings. Don't do the R talk. Those do NOT feel good. And they don't mean more than the actions. They are sooooo overrated.

You DO want to pull back a little now. Let these good times absorb....sink in for her.

GO Gardener!!!
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/05/09 04:43 AM
sg,

Well. you certainly have a much more positive take on what I thought was a rather walled-off, so-what experience.

Would like to know how you interpret the evening as I've described it.

Thanks.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/05/09 02:01 PM
Gardener and Sgt,

Gardener and I had a very similar evening with our W's (and our sitch's are pretty similar). So, I am watching this thread pretty closely.

Great advice sgt. Think I will pull back a bit today.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 05:30 AM
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Don't call her! Stop doing that. She has not had time to miss you and until you can show her that you don't care if you EVER talk to her again and you don't care that SHE IS LONELY/BORED, then you will get nowhere. I think you succeeded in turning her off when you "explained" how you were trying to respect her by giving her time and space. That was your way of telling her that she could still have you regardless of how ever much time it took for her, AND SHE HEARD IT LOUD AND CLEAR.

I think I'm going to stop beating around the bush with people from now on and just start telling them to drop the rope right then and there b/c as time goes by, I am more and more convinced that that is the one thing (and many times, the ONLY thing) that works with WAS. If my H would have done that in the beginning, it certainly would have gotten my undivided attention and I certainly would have respected him a heck of a lot more and I would not have done what I did practically under his nose.


Hah!!
I'm putting this here (from confusedinpa's thread):
1)Trying to figure out how to quote from one thread into another. I did it (well it's a bit of an accomplishment for me).
2)I need to have this for ready reference. It's great.

Thanks as always, sandi2
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 05:35 AM
Why is it so flippin' hard to drop the rope?????????
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 07:49 AM
"Why is it so hard to drop the rope?"

FEAR...

Face it. Handle it. Live freely, without fear running your life. That's freedom. You can have it if you choose it.

I like New Hampshire's license plate's motto: LIVE FREE OR DIE... (i.e., there are worse things than death....or divorce....)
But you have to choose freedom.

Face the FEAR and HANDLE IT. No more fear based choices...they are not choices...they are daily surrenders, and retreats.

Stand up for yourself, set healthy boundaries that you believe in and enforce them. Period.

((( j )))
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 12:10 PM
Quote:
"Why is it so hard to drop the rope?"

FEAR...

Amen. If there were a more sophisticated search capability on these threads, and you searched any of L'Histoire du Smiley's Person for the term "fear" or "afraid" -- you'd hit nearly post in the first 3 or 4 threads.

Fear. Yellow freaking fear.

Even in the discussion on "extra-separation sex" fear appears. I think, in fact, it was @Gardener who suggested that seeing LBS "do well" could make it "easier" on WAS -- which is really just another way of saying "I'm afraid to do well, lest it validate WAS's decision."

You were asking about MWD writing a book on DB'ing with kids in tow, @alive. Frankly I think an extended treatment on conquering fear while DB'ing might pay bigger dividends for the community. It's part of dropping the rope, but ever so much more so. It's all bound up in the shock of the bomb, the uncertainty of the future.... ah, ye gods, it's a killer. Fear is.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 01:54 PM
Cutting and pasting and adding to my must-remember sandi2's Greatest Hits (hit gardener - by proxy - over the head with WAW truisms, that is. smile
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hi Cabbr
I believe for a woman the worst thing a man can be is indifferent toward her. As long as you show anger or any emotion of being upset, then she know's she's still getting to you. I think that is one reason men like Puppy & Coach are successful in DBing b/c they remain calm but firm in their actions. Speaking in a soft, firm voice will do more to a female than a raised voice in anger.

Dropping the rope is the best thing a H can do with his WAW. It seems to be the very hardest thing for men here on the board to do b/c they allow their emotions to be in charge. Dropping the rope appears that you are completely disinterested in what she does or doesn't do. To her, you appear to not have any feelings about her one way or the other. That is what a woman can't stand! If anything will pull her out of her fog, I believe it is that.

However, there is one very important factor and if you don't have that factor....it won't work. That being.....you must do this for YOU and in order to have peace and be able to move forward with the idea that it could be without her in your life. Dropping the rope has to be for you.....not a ploy to get her back.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 05:00 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Quote:
"Why is it so hard to drop the rope?"

FEAR...

Amen. If there were a more sophisticated search capability on these threads, and you searched any of L'Histoire du Smiley's Person for the term "fear" or "afraid" -- you'd hit nearly post in the first 3 or 4 threads.

Fear. Yellow freaking fear.

Even in the discussion on "extra-separation sex" fear appears. I think, in fact, it was @Gardener who suggested that seeing LBS "do well" could make it "easier" on WAS -- which is really just another way of saying "I'm afraid to do well, lest it validate WAS's decision."

SORRY But I think This is such crap. IT paralyzes the LBSer and rationalizes their paralysis. IT enables them to stay stuck in their victimhood and not move forward or take responsibility for their happiness. That is all that matters as the LBSer must first for themselves, move on and second, MUST MODEL FOR THEIR CHILDREN what it meams to move forward in life with grace and dignity. All of our children will be hurt someday so they need to know what it looks like to overcome and recover. If the LBSer decides that it is more important to make their WAS wrong, than to GAL and be on their own, AND that the only way to make the WAS wrong is to stay miserable, the LBSer has missed the point and blown their only "Show" on earth. This is not a dress rehearsal.

The LBSer should show that the WAS made a mistake by overcoming the devestation of the loss of the WAS, and recovering their identities and their own happiness. THIS
more than anything else, makes the WAS 2nd guess their choice to leave, not pity for the pathetic spouse left behind. On the contrary, it is the opposite.

The more pathetic the LBSer acts, the more likely that the guilt (IF ANY, on the part of the WAS) will turn to pity and then contempt/resentment for the LBSer and it validates their choice to leave. This is so obviously the case in so many situations here. It becomes repulsive to the WAS to see the LBSer crying and clinging....in the eyes of the WAS, The lbser does not "deserve" to be married as they are too helpless and needy...so again, taking charge of your life is not only more
appropriate and healthy for the LBSer, it is also far far more likely to attract the WAS back or find another OP of interest. A WAS is usually in a selfish phase in order to leave anyhow, so if they are being asked to give more...it is highly unlikely to regain their interest. GAL is a win win. And it's a cop out to go the other way, and another form of letting fear take over and making you irrationally cling to misery as a way of keeping the WAS ---which NEVER ever works here!! show me one case where a WAS came back and stayed with an LBSer b/c of guilt and need and the LBSer not being able to function well without the WAS....if that were the case, the WAS would not leave in the first place....[[this is not to say you should not tell the WAS at least once, that you "GET" whatever issues you need to "GET" and own and change and that you are willing to do so, and that you care deeply, love them, etc. BUT in most of these cases the WAS knows the LBSer cares...and the LBSer knows that a WAS feeling unloved is not the real issue. IF it is, fix that. There is never a need to keep clinging and it always hurts your cause. I am Absolutely convinced of this.]]

I obviously feel strongly about it and have experienced and witnessed it time and time again here. GAL works for more than one purpose and is never a bad idea.
PLEASE for a moment, consider your life a novel and ask yourself this: Who is writing the novel of your life? Shouldn't it be YOU? Do you like how your novel is going? HOW will the next chapter go? How will your novel end? Will YOU write it or let someone else?
Be the author of your life. Take charge of it. Own it. It's the only one you get. Leave a legacy of recovery and responsibility for one's own happiness, for your children. IT teaches them to write their own novels too.






You were asking about MWD writing a book on DB'ing with kids in tow, @alive. Frankly I think an extended treatment on conquering fear while DB'ing might pay bigger dividends for the community. It's part of dropping the rope, but ever so much more so. It's all bound up in the shock of the bomb, the uncertainty of the future.... ah, ye gods, it's a killer. Fear is.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 06:14 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
[quote=SmileysPerson]
Quote:
I think, in fact, it was @Gardener who suggested that seeing LBS "do well" could make it "easier" on WAS -- which is really just another way of saying "I'm afraid to do well, lest it validate WAS's decision."


No, this wasn't me. And there also seems to be some "cross-threading" recently on my thread. No problem, mind you, just I'm unsure how it started.

I read it all, though. Always something to learn. smile
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 06:21 PM

Oh, and by the way, 25yearsmic,

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
SORRY But I think This is such crap. IT paralyzes the LBSer and rationalizes their paralysis. IT enables them to stay stuck in their victimhood and not move forward or take responsibility for their happiness. That is all that matters as the LBSer must first for themselves, move on and second, MUST MODEL FOR THEIR CHILDREN what it meams to move forward in life with grace and dignity. All of our children will be hurt someday so they need to know what it looks like to overcome and recover. If the LBSer decides that it is more important to make their WAS wrong, than to GAL and be on their own, AND that the only way to make the WAS wrong is to stay miserable, the LBSer has missed the point and blown their only "Show" on earth. This is not a dress rehearsal.

The LBSer should show that the WAS made a mistake by overcoming the devestation of the loss of the WAS, and recovering their identities and their own happiness. THIS
more than anything else, makes the WAS 2nd guess their choice to leave, not pity for the pathetic spouse left behind. On the contrary, it is the opposite.

The more pathetic the LBSer acts, the more likely that the guilt (IF ANY, on the part of the WAS) will turn to pity and then contempt/resentment for the LBSer and it validates their choice to leave. This is so obviously the case in so many situations here. It becomes repulsive to the WAS to see the LBSer crying and clinging....in the eyes of the WAS, The lbser does not "deserve" to be married as they are too helpless and needy...so again, taking charge of your life is not only more
appropriate and healthy for the LBSer, it is also far far more likely to attract the WAS back or find another OP of interest. A WAS is usually in a selfish phase in order to leave anyhow, so if they are being asked to give more...it is highly unlikely to regain their interest. GAL is a win win. And it's a cop out to go the other way, and another form of letting fear take over and making you irrationally cling to misery as a way of keeping the WAS ---which NEVER ever works here!! show me one case where a WAS came back and stayed with an LBSer b/c of guilt and need and the LBSer not being able to function well without the WAS....if that were the case, the WAS would not leave in the first place....[[this is not to say you should not tell the WAS at least once, that you "GET" whatever issues you need to "GET" and own and change and that you are willing to do so, and that you care deeply, love them, etc. BUT in most of these cases the WAS knows the LBSer cares...and the LBSer knows that a WAS feeling unloved is not the real issue. IF it is, fix that. There is never a need to keep clinging and it always hurts your cause. I am Absolutely convinced of this.]]

I obviously feel strongly about it and have experienced and witnessed it time and time again here. GAL works for more than one purpose and is never a bad idea.
PLEASE for a moment, consider your life a novel and ask yourself this: Who is writing the novel of your life? Shouldn't it be YOU? Do you like how your novel is going? HOW will the next chapter go? How will your novel end? Will YOU write it or let someone else?
Be the author of your life. Take charge of it. Own it. It's the only one you get. Leave a legacy of recovery and responsibility for one's own happiness, for your children. IT teaches them to write their own novels too.



This great. I agree (even if it is partially in reference to my being misquoted by SP - I know I can't keep all the threads and sitches I'm following straight in my mind sometimes).
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 06:26 PM
Great post!!!!
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 07:58 PM
Journaling. So as I reflect on the last couple of weeks, DBing - and especially Last Resort Techniques have produced:

Greater peace in my mind (key)
Apparent efforts by my wife to keep me on the phone, spend a little time with me, spend even more time with me, her agreement to hold off D talk for another month. Her connecting emotionally if only by VM to The Note. Overall, a number of small changes of her slightly Moving Toward instead of Moving Away. And, even so, I'm feeling a bit "Ok. No Big Deal." about it.
A stronger sense of control, self determination.
More time working on me for me.

And my one non-LRT, reaching out invitation(to fireworks) to my wife produced:
My not really wanting to be with her that night because she went back behind the wall big time.
Impromptu 180ing (mingling, chatting w/crowd, diving in instead of sitting and spectating), actually leaving her behind to do this and not caring at all that I did. ("OK. No Big Deal, here, either.")

I'm going back to LRT, backing off, going (mostly) dark, back to my self-talk of "Face it, Gardener, your marriage has been over for months now. Your wife has been gone in every way a wife or person can be gone for months now. You have no marriage; you have no wife. Now, heal. Work. Grow."
For several weeks I've been saying that I'm a better person all around when I tell myself that. Of course I am. Because saying that, living that, is the detachment that I thought was eluding me. That self-talk and the actions that follow it are my detachment.
It feels better. Gets some results from my wife, true, but that's just a by-product, not the intent, and either way: No Big Deal."

Got that, Gardener?
Yes, I do, Gardener.
Thank me very much.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 08:45 PM
Gardener,
Me likey! laugh

j-
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 09:52 PM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Gardener,
Me likey! laugh

j-

j,
Me thanky!
Hope you read back a bit re: my comment about a)cross-threading and b)misquoting leading to a whole flurry of stuff by you guys on my thread that left me in the dust...
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/06/09 11:56 PM
I've seen several references these past few weeks about a movie called Fire(something). Made a mental note to check it out. Now, I can't remember title and can't find thread references. Search didn't help. Can anyone help me out, here?

Thanks.
Posted By: Sara Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/07/09 12:03 AM
Fireproof.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/07/09 12:30 AM
Yes it's a Kirk Cameron film with a faith based company financing it. (For some people they'll be turned off by the religious nature of it). Others won't. Some will use a critic's eye toward it, but it really depends on your outlook.

Worth seeing. I rented it from Netflix as it's not in the theaters now.

J-
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/07/09 01:12 AM
Thank you, 25ym & Sara.

I appreciate it and have put it on the Netflix list.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/07/09 01:19 AM
fyi, I would not ask your w to watch it. Just b/c it's clearly going to come off as pressure and pursuit. I am just now reading your thread so it may not be an issue for you anyhow. frown

But in case you were thinking of suggesting it, not such a good idea...definitely could create conflict and a sense of you blaming her. (Which, Right or wrong, is sooo Not effective.)

Take care and I'll go finish reading your thread.
J-
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/07/09 01:29 AM
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
fyi, I would not ask your w to watch it.


Thanks. I won't. I wouldn't. I don't ask her to do anything.
She's asked me to just leave her alone (as you all know).
This I do.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Jumping in (1st post) - 07/07/09 10:34 AM
BigJohn,
We've hijacked PortlandDad's thread enough, so I came back "home" to reply.

I appreciate your advice, but my wife moved out 8 months ago, so the computer aspect of said advice is moot now.

And then again I realize that what we were/I was talking about really flies in the face of detaching, doesn't it?
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