Just wanted to know if anyone else feels this way. I feel like I am swinging on a pendulum on a day to day basis. Today I hate him. I hate the man he is today.
Does H love me? He doesn’t seem to. Is he affectionate? No. Does he desire intimacy? No. Is he accepting of my faults? No. Is he aware of his own shortcomings? No. Does he communicate his wants, needs, feelings (both good and bad)? No. What am I fighting for?
Sometimes I feel like I am just holding onto a memory. A memory that's slowly fading away. Why?
Why should I, a good person, yes I have faults, but nonetheless, a good hearted person, have to put up with this heartache? WHY ME?!!! Why am I being put thru this? What lesson am I possibly learning in all of this? To have my family ripped apart & have to start over at square one financially??? Why did I marry someone who turned out to be a frickin pyschopath?
I just look at my H & think - why can't you just let go of whatever issues you have with me, wipe the slate clean & I'll do the same for you and let's move forward???? I also look at him and think I'd like to punch him right in the face...just once to make him feel a SHRED OF THE PAIN IN ME - that I live with day in & day out. And to top it all off - I get to walk around and PRETEND THAT I DON'T HATE HIM - I HAVE TO PRETEND LIKE EVERYTHING IS OKAY.
Then there are other days, I am completely positive & upbeat. Nobody's going to steal my joy. Then I get in this mode. Or sad & depressed. I've always been such a grounded person.
And let me just tell you this, I am 34 years old. Young enough that starting over in life wouldn't be too terrible. People have always told me I should be a model. In fact, people were always shocked that my H got me! I own a successful business, have lots of close friends, make new friends easily, I'm a good mom, good cook, decent housekeeper. I could go out & find someone else, but I want my family together. I, unlike H, have values, I made a vow, a promise that I intended to keep.
H & I were the couple that this wasn't supposed to happen to. We had always been BEST FRIENDS. We were the couple in our group of friends from college that people were envious of! Even now, when I tell our mutual friends what is going on they are in SHOCK. These are people who know both of us very well. They will tell me - I always saw him look at you with such love in his eyes.
Thanks for letting me rant - I really needed that. Sorry to be a downer today!
Hopeful, I feel EXACTLY the same, right down to the we were the couple no one thought this would happen to.
I would never (and never have) cross the line of physical violence towards W, but I can understand how it could happen. Certainly never would condone it.
I was in a "hate" mood last night and this morning. For the same reasons you mention - I made a vow to God to love this woman no matter what, I have a conscience, and I do not want my family ripped apart. Part of the frustration is that W gets to choose whether or not to tear apart our family. She's actually convinced herself the kids will be alright because we are "going to be great friends." Maybe..one day. Not any time soon.
I may one day be able to forgive W for what I think she will do, but I do not know that I will ever be able to forgive THE WAY she will do it - I know I did not tell you I was unhappy, I know I did not tell you I was in counseling for myself for 6 months before I dropped the bomb, and will not even discuss reconciliation, much less counseling (even though W admits she does not understand all the reasons for her feelings). All of this screams for counseling, but she is as confident and sure of her decision as I have ever seen.
Me too!
Hopefull VA I am also at this moment welling up with tears of anger and hurt at the man my H is today. Like you, my relationship and then M was the one that people around us looked to, not becacuse it was perfect but because we were best friends and had a great love that people admired. Our friends constantly tell me how shocked they are, that he had always adored me, respected me, valued me beyond meausure.
We had a really tough last year together with some really bad life events (terrible lost pregnancy, etc.) but I still can't believe that he has turned into to this stranger...self indulgent, entitled, self pitying, focued on himself, and only himself. Unwilling to repair our marriage, only interested in bailing out "to find what I need to make me happy".
I am trying so hard to go about my own life, to really become "as if", to understand where he is coming from and validate when appropriate. But on days like this, when I am tired, so tired of feeling abandoned, cast aside, shut out...when I miss my best friend, miss that we used to be on the same team, I just don't understand and I think its the meanest thing in the world, what he is doing.
And yet, when I am able to keep a PMA, move along with what's best for me, I think to myself, I can do this. I can take care of me and its really up to him to sort himself out. Then, and only then, could we ever really get to a place were rebuilding would even be possible.
Its just so hard sometimes. I struggle with the idea..is this who he really is now and will always be? Is the person I loved and felt so good with gone forever? Being heart broken is so demoralizing. I start to think that I am detaching, but on days like this I wonder if I am even capable of really doing this...I don't feel like I am making any progress.
Sorry, would like to be encouraging to you but all I can offer right now is my empathy...I am right there with you.
I feel the exact same as the three of you - today is one of those days I am hating my H and what he is putting us through with his crazy MLC and trying to figure out how this happened. There was not much wrong with our marriage before all this crap started - it was good. Maybe not great but not much to complain about.
Still, I also know I made vows before God and I intend to keep them and will NOT lift a finger to undo them myself. For whatever reason God has allowed this in my life I have to trust that He has great plans for my future, whatever that may be.
I also have days where I feel great, confident, etc. but then there are the bad days. And today is one of those.
We will get through it! One day at a time.
I like to think we (LBS's) were chosen for that role precisely because we are the stronger ones in the M. Unofortunately, we are going to bear the lions share of the grief.
I almost chukle (or grumble) when I recall my W telling me it hurt her to know how much she was hurting me. Sorry, but whatever I did could not possibly have warranted the pain I am receiving. I am not hoping this pain on W, but maybe their share of this comes when they finally realize what they are searching for, they already had. I fear that in my case it will be too late when W realizes that, if she ever does.
AND, W has shown nothing but happiness or anger (mostly happiness) since dropping the bomb.
We are all in this together, so let's help each other.
They do say that they hate that they are hurting you. Sigh. Imagine that this bad movie is playing in so many homes. Is there a script that they are reading?
As my grandma used to say, What doesn't kill you will make you stronger.
Funny thing is that DB'ing has the affect of letting them free from that pain because they do not see you hurting. Still a fan though.
That's what I wonder about the DB-ing. In some ways he seems a bit maybe relieved that I am no longer falling apart? But yes I have heard the so sorry for hurting you thing, too. And I never knew I could be this strong. But it sure isn't fun.
yes-strong, commited, fantastic spouses, let's hang in there together!
Right there with you. I told my brother the other day the only thing I can imagine that could be more painful than what we are all going through is, God forbid, something happened to one of my kids.
I think it throws them off their game a bit to see that you are not falling apart. They feel that they are the ones walking away and we can't make it without them. Sometimes we have told them that, so they must wonder why we are doing well.
Yes, it would be good if they could see the extent of the pain they are causing but I also think that in their honest,alone moments they feel pain. They immerse themselves in distractions so that they do not have to focus on the pain.This is why they get a new, busy, non- stop life.
Kara, very wise statements. My W is readinf 3 different books at the same time - all about moving on and how great her life will be after the D.
Wow, I came to the right place today. I am feeling the same and I can honestly say that I had the same thoughts on my R. Not always great, but we were a GREAT couple. The envy of all around us. Maybe that is the curse as it seems to be a common thread here. I don't know...
What I do know is that I agree with the demoralizing part of being left behind. I feel like he will always have one up on me because I was not good enough to fight for. I look around at people and every pretty girl I see I wonder if she could be his next R. Is that crazy or what? Like..."oh, he would probably be happier with ANYONE else but me!" And I wonder if I will ever get over H and wanting to be with him.
I keep telling myself that I will never know the way he is probably hurting. It has to be worse than me, in a way because he cannot even pinpoint the reason. But heartbreak FEELS bad. I mean, it HURTS in a literal sense. I can see that it is stages of hurt. I can see that I have passed through some of the stages already, but one of the hardest parts of DBing is that pendulum. That ever swinging door. I have figured out that I am 2days up and 2days down. Today is day 2 of up for me...that means that tomorrow should be a bad one. Maybe I can ward it off by recognizing my pattern.
It does give me comfort knowing that I have integrity, and loyalty figured out. I cannot imagine not having that... and that is what DBing gives us.
My H also seems relieved that I am doing OK. (or so it might seem to him). I just have to continue to pray that he is really wondering if doing this is going to make him happy. When does the remorse and regret kick in? When does the "oh crap, I might really lose her and my family" kick in?? Hopefully soon cause I don't know how much more of this I can be strong for.
In any case, I wish we could all meet up and have one big PITY party! It would be so much more helpful than logging off of here and still feeling alone
Not to say this doesn't help...it does. I am so thankful for everyone here!
Praying for us all.....
Nicoles, our WAS's will eventually realize what they have done. No telling when. I can see my W being so proud she would never admit she had made a mistake.
My counselor told me that it often comes crashing down on a WAS at some point. I had one of these days as well where I was emoting about being left behind. I didn't think it was fair that I was cast out of my WAW and her twin sister's place while they have each other for support. I have to sit hear wondering why they don't want to deal with anything right now. My W with her marriage to me and both of them for not properly dealing with the death of my BIL. Why won't they go see his headstone? Why won't their parents or brother talk to them about what happened? I feel like I have been let go because I am the strong one. My W admitted to me the day the BIL took his own life that we would have to take my SIL in and I would have to help the W be strong because she wasn't a particularly strong person. Of course, the solution is to factor one person out of the equation. That is me. I can't help but wonder when it will all come crashing down for my WAW? How does one hold off dealing with the death of a family member, consoling a grieving twin, and shunning a spouse? I am now ready to talk seriously with my W about what happened and now we are barely on speaking terms.
Drew
---
me-36
WAW-32
separation - 5/22/09
WAW twin sister-32 (lives with WAW)
SIL H death - 11/02/08
ILYBIANILWYAM - 5/07/09
bomb - 5/07/09
I look around at people and every pretty girl I see I wonder if she could be his next R.
Aaaargh...up until only very recently I was experiencing this to the point that I felt like kicking every beautiful woman I saw in the knee caps!
It is just that feeling of being so replaceable.
I only just realized in reading your post that the feeling has diminished...that's good.
Yes, a big DB pity party would be great. I bet we would have a great time!!!! A bunch of nuts, right?
I look around at people and every pretty girl I see I wonder if she could be his next R.
Aaaargh...up until only very recently I was experiencing this to the point that I felt like kicking every beautiful woman I saw in the knee caps!
It is just that feeling of being so replaceable.
GOD, I thought I was the only one!!! I have no evidence of an A, however, if we're out and some young girl gives him attention, or I see someone that I thought he might find attractive, my head just spins.
Makes me want to vomit!
OMG, HopefulinVA, your post is right on the money! It is exactly what I am going through, too. He is out having a great time, where I am just feeling hurt and sad, but trying to have a good time. It is not easy.
Right now I just want to say to my H, "F you, F you, F you, F you, F you"! One big "F you!!!" Sorry if I offended anyone, but after reading this thread, I just want to let it all out!!
Thanks for all the responses...I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy, but am thankful for your support.
Giving it - that is the same conclusion that I have come to with my H. If this ends in tragedy, I believe he will never look back. He will always see me as the problem. I think even if we have a happy ending, H may always think it was because I made changes. Nothing to do with him!
I know DBing is solutions based, but does anyone know a WAH/W that has been able to tell us what is going on in their heads during this time. It almost seems like a quasi-MLC or some sort of identity crisis. I just can't fathom how a normal, healthy person does something like this! Is it depression? I feel like there should be some sort of diagnosis...Or is this just what resentment can do to a person???? In which case, I must then rationalize that IT WAS ME. I was that terrible of a wife.
It's just that the things they say are so BIZARRE. And my H functions just fine in every other area of his life. He has said he feels "lost". His answer to everything in the beginning (1/09) was "I don't know". He can, at times, seem SO ANGRY. Yet most of the time he just appears to not care at all. I heard something interesting lately. In scripture Jesus says "Love your neighbor as yourself". You can only love your neighbor as much as you love yourself. Another way of saying it would be to add the words "You will" before the word love. Meaning you can never love anyone more than you love yourself. So if you feel like crap, you will project your crap onto others. Who would that other be? The closest person to you - your spouse.
Nicole: I keep wondering - were we just the envy of all because we got along so well? Did we just get along so well bc H always kept feelings inside? It always just SEEMED like we agreed on everything & were great friends? While meanwhile his resentment was eating him alive! Meanwhile it doesn't help that he has erased all good memories from his mind. If this was the case, not only am I being put thru all this, but I WAS ROBBED OF MY REALITY! Will I ever trust again? Will I ever be able to know what is true & what is not? Did H take that capability from me?
When you say you look around you at pretty girls & think your H will be w/them next...I do something similar, but I will look at (sorry to sound rude) fat, nasty couples at the pool & think - even people like that can find someone to love them. WHAT WAS SO WRONG WITH ME????????? WHY WASN'T I GOOD ENOUGH ANYMORE?
Tomorrow will be better...
Spot on. I can think of some other words I could add to that as well, but I want to be allowed to keep posting here.
Boy, I am so glad that there are so many people who can empathize (though I am certainly NOT glad that that there are so many of us feeling this way!).
I KNOW my H feels remorse at times, I have seen him very upset, but then he goes on with his merry own life (or so it seems). I do see him running, runnning, running to not have to face his feelings/realities. He spends money like we have it and is out A LOT. He seems to have a very active social life when he has never had one before (though who really knows - he could be sitting somewhere alone). He watches movies until all hours at night - can't sleep well (wonder why?).
I SOOOOOOO wish I could get in his face and tell him how unfair it is that he can have his crisis and dump all over us and treat me so very badly when I have been his best friend for getting close to 20 years now! I want to tell him he is acting like a spoiled, petulant, selfish TEENAGER! I pray that God finds him again and he "snaps out of it" but who knows.
I miss the days when I thought a MLC was just about buying a sports car . . .
I have moments like that every day... just knowing we were once soooo close to each other, but he couldn't tell me what was going on in his head, that he would just stop being affectionate and loving in the middle of a pregnancy - and then tell me he didn't feel the same way about me before the pregnancy, and before we bought our house...
I see some hope in our relationship, where we're actually talking to each other more than we had been (especially with me not contacting him), where we still talk about our future plans and so on... And I think he's encouraged by the fact that I'm so enthusiastic about GAL.
Still no affection, but I have this newfound respect for myself too... I only want it from him if he wants to give it - I'm not going to beg him for anything anymore.
My little brother died almost a year ago, and that was the most heartbreaking thing I've ever had to go through. This I can live with.
I do something similar, but I will look at (sorry to sound rude) fat, nasty couples at the pool & think - even people like that can find someone to love them. WHAT WAS SO WRONG WITH ME????????? WHY WASN'T I GOOD ENOUGH ANYMORE?
LOL!!!! I have both! I see boring miserable women nagging and moaning and I think, "Oh, ok, she's lovable but I'm not!!! WTF?"
Hey Nicole. Here's your pity party.
Boy, I am so glad that there are so many people who can empathize (though I am certainly NOT glad that that there are so many of us feeling this way!).
I KNOW my H feels remorse at times, I have seen him very upset, but then he goes on with his merry own life (or so it seems). I do see him running, runnning, running to not have to face his feelings/realities. He spends money like we have it and is out A LOT. He seems to have a very active social life when he has never had one before (though who really knows - he could be sitting somewhere alone). He watches movies until all hours at night - can't sleep well (wonder why?).
I SOOOOOOO wish I could get in his face and tell him how unfair it is that he can have his crisis and dump all over us and treat me so very badly when I have been his best friend for getting close to 20 years now! I want to tell him he is acting like a spoiled, petulant, selfish TEENAGER! I pray that God finds him again and he "snaps out of it" but who knows.
I miss the days when I thought a MLC was just about buying a sports car . . .
My H is also having a LOT of trouble sleeping... I am giving him exactly what he wants - the space and freedom while we work this through or decide whether it's over. And he never seems all that happy. He goes out all the time too, but mostly with the same guy (who went through a breakup with a longtime gf, has a DD a little older than ours). I'm sure he's really conflicted about things, since whether or not our family stays together is all up to him. And he's basing it all on "feelings".
Yeah, I heard the everything based on feelings. I thought love was a decision, not a feeling. If they think love is a "feeling," they don't know what love is.
I guess in their messed up minds it is easier to think of it as a feeling because an action or a decision would mean they actually would have to take responsibility.
I've tried to tell him that... that if he wanted to get the feeling back, he just needed to decide to be loving.
When I've told him that, I wasn't telling him that in the most selfless way possible though.
On the same track, I haven't been "feeling" happy for a long time either. But for me, I needed to decide to actually be happy, and to do things for myself - I was turning into a typical martyr wife where everything I did was for my H and DD and I was miserable because nobody did the same for me. How can anyone be happy being married to someone like that and feel loving towards them?
Hello dmk..
Many times the only way a spouse can consider divorce is by laying all the blame on the other partner, in this case, you. Yet what is forgotten is that each individual is responsible for their own happiness, the person they see in the mirror. That goes for you, too.
A marriage is made up of equal partners. Each of you is responsible for 50% of the issues. Growth starts when you take 100% responsibility for your share of the problems. That is where change comes in.
DB coaches have positive ways of addressing issues. Take away the negatives that your spouse carps about. I started creating safe havens of tranquility one room at time for my spouse.. cleaning them up, removing clutter, making them peaceful. The clutter and mess in the house always bugged him. The more you remove what he gripes about the more he is forced to look at the true issues.
It's also said that the way to reach your spouse is through their complaints. Take care of those and things may ease up. At the very least, he knows he's being heard.
When my spouse said he was leaving, to 'live his own life, the life he always wanted' all my resentments ripped away. What had been big deals in the past, vanished. He commented on it. My reply was that I'd gotten a kick in the butt and a huge wake up call.
Divorce Remedy has a lot of good direction on what to do, Care and Feeding of a Husband is highly recommended, too as well as the Love Dare.
Enjoy the 'you' who is emerging. Stop giving him prime real estate in your mind.. trying to figure him out only saps your energy and takes away from positive growth on your part. And learn to listen to your inner voice within.
*hugs*
PS.. I just saw your post. "Co-Dependent No More" was a great book showing how you can unwittingly become a martyr. It was one of the best books I read through all this.
*hugs*
Gypsy - I like your idea of de-cluttering. I have been trying to make the home a calm, clean place to be also but have been slipping. Can't keep up with everything (because he is taking basically no responsibility at home for anything anymore) but it is one of my goals. He also has always liked a clean home (and used to HELP with it). One of these days . . . little by little.
I was doing Love Dare when he dropped the bomb - I was about 2/3 way through. At first I was so upset I had "wasted" the time but I now know that the timing was perfect - God knew I needed to put the time into "showing" the love to my husband so I knew I still had it/could feel it. That is one of the reasons I am sticking this out.
Nicole: I keep wondering - were we just the envy of all because we got along so well? Did we just get along so well bc H always kept feelings inside? It always just SEEMED like we agreed on everything & were great friends? While meanwhile his resentment was eating him alive! Meanwhile it doesn't help that he has erased all good memories from his mind. If this was the case, not only am I being put thru all this, but I WAS ROBBED OF MY REALITY! Will I ever trust again? Will I ever be able to know what is true & what is not? Did H take that capability from me?
When you say you look around you at pretty girls & think your H will be w/them next...I do something similar, but I will look at (sorry to sound rude) fat, nasty couples at the pool & think - even people like that can find someone to love them. WHAT WAS SO WRONG WITH ME????????? WHY WASN'T I GOOD ENOUGH ANYMORE?
Tomorrow will be better...
I think that they envied us and/or looked up to us because we SEEMED so stable. Which is ironic in every way now. I have heard so many times from our shocked family and friends..."wow, he really had it all..." And he did. I am sure that there is no way anyone who comes out of their fog could look at this situation logically and say that they made the right decision. I think so much of the pain cames from being out of control. We do not want this to be our lives...we want our family in tact. We can't control another person. It makes me realize more than ever how serious marriage really is. You are entrusting your sanity as well as your heart and everything else you hold prescious and dear to another person of whom you have NO CONTROL. So, unless you did something to warrant this treatment...which would be easier for me if I REALLY thought that I did or if H said I did (he is not blaming me for anything which confuses me more)...it is extremely damaging to the psyche.
As for the fat, ugly person comment....I too have thought this many times. Ugly being in behavior mostly...but yes, I wonder what more I will have to do to keep a man. This must all be human nature, these thoughts! It is hard to handle as there is never a good answer! Unbelieveable!!!!!
I also would not wish this on my worst enemy...but I am SOOOOOO glad you guys are here!
Hello dmk..
Many times the only way a spouse can consider divorce is by laying all the blame on the other partner, in this case, you. Yet what is forgotten is that each individual is responsible for their own happiness, the person they see in the mirror. That goes for you, too.
A marriage is made up of equal partners. Each of you is responsible for 50% of the issues. Growth starts when you take 100% responsibility for your share of the problems. That is where change comes in.
Hi! Hope you don't mind if I jump in on this thread! I could have started it myself. My H fits this bill.
Gypsy---Extremely well put words! My H is very angry at himself. But instead of changing himself, he blames me for everything bad that has ever happened to him. My H blames me for "making him a worse person" instead of a better person. Our marriage should have made him better.
I'd also add unrealistic expectations of marriage to your list. In MC, my husband more or less said that he was disappointed when he looks back on our marriage. It shouldn't have been SO MUCH WORK, SO MUCH CONFLICT. Truth is, marriage is work. All relationships are. All human interactions will experience some conflict. The rub is figuring out how to effectively manage it and work on conflict resolutions, learning to communicate effectively, learning how to meet each other's needs to reduce the conflict. None are simple or easy, don't require any effort. Oh, wait a minute---affairs are easy and don't require much effort! (My H had an EA with his therapist.) When I asked him why he was attracted to OW, he said b/c it was easy to talk to her, no conflict, no effort. DELUSIONS!
Sorry for my rant. I can't seem to take the focus off of him and put it back on me. I think I know why...he always complained that I put everything else before him. So I feel like I need to spend time with him, attend to him, b/c that is doing a 180. But it is so very draining b/c he's depressed, moody, self-centered, and emotionally unavailable to me.
I think my W feels that way too - "When is my time?" Only problem is, I was attentive, I did help with household chores, I was there for the kids. I am better now than I was before. Wasn't perfect before, but who is - oh yeah, she will be the one to find the perfect person out there who no one else has ever managed to.
Sorry, that was petty. But it felt good to get it out.
Hi Gypsy!
Actually, his big complaints about me, especially as of late-
-Always being on his back about everything - checking phone records, bank accounts, etc. Grilling him about things - he has not given any indication that he would ever cheat on me, but I am so suspicious about everything anyway.
-That I have no life of my own - he's been trying to get me (for the past couple of years) to go out with my friends more and do things I like to do. Always is more than willing to stay at home with DD while I go out.
Both of these things, I'm fixing, and having lots of fun doing it!
"Enjoy the 'you' who is emerging. Stop giving him prime real estate in your mind.. trying to figure him out only saps your energy and takes away from positive growth on your part. And learn to listen to your inner voice within."
This is so true, and great advice.
I also would not wish this on my worst enemy...but I am SOOOOOO glad you guys are here!
I agree with this! The message board I usually go to the women just say - call it your "practice" marriage and move on... So it's helpful to "chat" with people who are going through situations that are very similar.
I'll jump in here too, I seem to have a one good day, one crappy day. That extreme hate feels so bad, but it sure is good to know so many others are going through it too. I think it just stems from the total lack of control.
Someone else is deciding the fate of our lives and our childrens, and there is piss all we can do about it.
I know in my marriage I was always the one to make all the decisions, my W was always so indecisive about so many things, I guess it was the strategist in her, always wanting to reason everything out for two hours before making a call on something so unimportant.
We too were one of the couples that when telling others about our situation they are speechless, and blown away. Sure seems like alot of us in the same boat tonight.
_________________________
Me 42
W 34
D 5
S 3
S 2
M 3 yrs
T 8 yrs
ILYBINILWY 2/23/09
ILYBNILWY 4/20/09
Still in same house, separate rooms
LG - I think you are absolutely right about it stemming from the lack of control. My H gets to decide this without me? I mean, it came out of the blue!
Just like mine. No warning. W even admits she did not tell me she was unhappy and had been in counseling for 6 months before telling me.
Then, when she tells me she wants D, says she is "done," that she will not go to counseling, will not talk about reconciliation and that she is "resolute" in her decision.
I may be able to forgive her one day for the D, but I do not know that I can forgive the WAY she is doing it.
I've tried to tell him that... that if he wanted to get the feeling back, he just needed to decide to be loving.
When I've told him that, I wasn't telling him that in the most selfless way possible though.
On the same track, I haven't been "feeling" happy for a long time either. But for me, I needed to decide to actually be happy, and to do things for myself - I was turning into a typical martyr wife where everything I did was for my H and DD and I was miserable because nobody did the same for me. How can anyone be happy being married to someone like that and feel loving towards them?
Wow. Lightbulb!! I have been feeling this was my problem in R too, I just haven't really know how to verbalize/articulate it. I did everything re: household stuff and kids. He did the bills. I always thought he should help me more and he did as well. I have known for awhile that we were fighting the same battle against each other. I would also really resent his freedom with his job. And the fact that I have put aside everything for his career...but all of this seems so trivial and stupid and were all erased when he left. I want another chance to flip that switch and appreciate him for the things I resented before...and BE more loving. This is not to say that I am to blame here. But like it was said in another post. It's 50/50...and I am ready to accept 100% of that.
Someone else is deciding the fate of our lives and our childrens, and there is piss all we can do about it.
Absolutely the toughest pill to swallow especially when you subscribe to the belief that we are each responsible for our own happiness and our own lives. I mean how do I get control, darnit???
But, I suppose, we master the little things one at a time and eventual, we get into a new normal. Like if we have a parent that is ill or a neighbor that acts like an a**hole...we have an ex who we need to deal with. It is lonely and scary and bizarre to fathom these people who were so central to our lives becoming peripheral and needing to just be managed but it happens all the time. It is truly the most difficult part of this for me and others I'm sure. Detaching. But, it can be done. And, we will have a modicum of peace when we are ready for it.
Faith: I wish I could say the same, not entirely out of the blue for me.
My W is actually was the type of girl who would internalize things constantly, never saying her true feelings for months and months, until it would come to a head and she'd blow up, telling me she couldn't live this way any longer.
She should have been releasing it a little at a time instead of harboring, and resenting so much.
So I guess I had ample warning, every 4-5 months. I would always "own it", and try to correct the issues I had, But the true change did not happen until I was backed into a corner with something to lose...Pretty selfish I know, not willing to truly change until faced with losing everything, my largest act of selfishness thus far.
_________________________
Me 42
W 34
D 5
S 3
S 2
M 3 yrs
T 8 yrs
ILYBINILWY 2/23/09
same house, same bed no intimacy
Faith: I wish I could say the same, not entirely out of the blue for me.
My W is actually was the type of girl who would internalize things constantly, never saying her true feelings for months and months, until it would come to a head and she'd blow up, telling me she couldn't live this way any longer.
She should have been releasing it a little at a time instead of harboring, and resenting so much.
So I guess I had ample warning, every 4-5 months. I would always "own it", and try to correct the issues I had, But the true change did not happen until I was backed into a corner with something to lose...Pretty selfish I know, not willing to truly change until faced with losing everything, my largest act of selfishness thus far.
_________________________
Me 42
W 34
D 5
S 3
S 2
M 3 yrs
T 8 yrs
ILYBINILWY 2/23/09
same house, same bed no intimacy
Faith: I wish I could say the same, not entirely out of the blue for me.
My W is actually was the type of girl who would internalize things constantly, never saying her true feelings for months and months, until it would come to a head and she'd blow up, telling me she couldn't live this way any longer.
She should have been releasing it a little at a time instead of harboring, and resenting so much.
So I guess I had ample warning, every 4-5 months. I would always "own it", and try to correct the issues I had, But the true change did not happen until I was backed into a corner with something to lose...Pretty selfish I know, not willing to truly change until faced with losing everything, my largest act of selfishness thus far.
_________________________
Me 42
W 34
D 5
S 3
S 2
M 3 yrs
T 8 yrs
ILYBINILWY 2/23/09
same house, same bed no intimacy
Sorry not sure what the heck happened there,dang computer.
"Just wanted to know if anyone else feels this way. I feel like I am swinging on a pendulum on a day to day basis. Today I hate him. I hate the man he is today."
This is a big part of DB'ing. It usually signals the start of a life changing event. You could label it "flip-flopping" or "on the fence". To me it just shows that you are very likely focused on the wrong things in life. I will also tell you that he is most likely doing the exact same thing as you.. but there are way different "reasons" for him.
"Does H love me? He doesn’t seem to."
I question the thought of whether you think he does not love you.
"Sometimes I feel like I am just holding onto a memory. A memory that's slowly fading away. Why?"
Lets just say for "the devils" sake. He is not holding onto the "memory". You can't discount what he feels... or where he is. He has every reason just like you to feel the way he does. Ask yourself.. why does this feel "surprising". Why does this catch you off guard?
"I just look at my H & think - why can't you just let go of whatever issues you have with me, wipe the slate clean & I'll do the same for you and let's move forward????"
The simple answer to this is that he has tried. In his mind.. he has "done it all" with no response from you.
There is a lot that goes into that simple answer from me.
"And let me just tell you this, I am 34 years old. Young enough that starting over in life wouldn't be too terrible."
So why have you not done "it" yet?
__________________________________________________
Changing posts.
"Here is H's problems with me:
He thinks I am too controlling
He thinks I talk down to him & criticize him
He thinks I give him guilt trips
He thinks I am cold & mean
He feels his opinions never mattered"
I would suspect he finds you "over the top". How are you addressing these things? Explain to me your early "Life" when things were good.
"My biggest questions are the GAL I addressed previously & questions about physical touch."
GAL can be very subjective. The idea behind GAL is to pull your mind out of the "stitch". It (GAL) gives you downtime of not thinking about all that is going on around you.
Don't expect PT right now.
"Thanks for your suggestions. I have read that book & mine is actually quality time. I think that is part of the reason I have been viewed as controlling & giving him guilt trips - because I wanted to be together. I just want physical touch now because he always was so affectionate before...much more than me...I just think it would be my way of gauging that he was making a big step. And if I got a big step, I could be more certain about our future which I feel is completely in limbo right now.
I have a hard time figuring out what H's love language is...as affectionate as he was, he always did acts of service for me (even though that wasn't mine)...so sometimes I think you do for others what you would like them to do for you. The other one it may be is words of affirmation."
This proves the point of we don't know what we think we know.
LL (Love Languages) can be hard to figure out even for one's self.
I want you to really think hard and list one for him.. and one for you. I want you to think about just 1 for each of you right now to center the conversation.
Now I skimmed thru most of your posts.. and I likely missed something. If you could can you give me a "overview" of where and what is going on right now?
No matter what is going on right now the best thing I can tell you is to GAL (Find a distraction) and pick your battles.
I will read thru the rest of the posts...
Forrest - I appreciate your time reading thru my scenario:
I question the thought of whether you think he does not love you.
I don't understand what you mean by this quote above.
"I just look at my H & think - why can't you just let go of whatever issues you have with me, wipe the slate clean & I'll do the same for you and let's move forward????"
The simple answer to this is that he has tried. In his mind.. he has "done it all" with no response from you.
"
If he did this it would have been nice to have been told!
So why have you not done "it" yet?
Because I made a vow that I take seriously. Because we have children that I don't want to see go thru a divorce.
Overview of sitch:
H says I was too controlling - examples were me being resentful that he had a job w/lot of travel & entertaining clients. I was working full time & taking care of the kids 1 & 2 at the time. We would talk on the phone at night & I would say - what are you doing right now? He would say - getting ready to take clients to a steakhouse. I would say - Must be nice! (sarcastically). There was a reorg at his job & his new boss was a micro manager which he hated so I encouraged him to quit & work at my company. I always referred to him as my partner, but about 3 months ago we were at a friend's house & he said - no she's my boss (very resentfully). So I know it must have bothered him. When he was withdrawing from me, I encouraged him to go back to corporate america, which he started a new job 2 months ago.
He loved playing baseball & this was another major source of contention. My job requires me to work weekends & he would be off at double headers that would take 8 hours out of a weekend day (not to mention if the team wanted to go out for beers afterwards), while I was watching the kids once again, after he had traveled all week. I resented this. Plus I worked weekends so if someone called me & needed something, I was the one left scrambling with a 1 & 2 year old. When he came to work w/me, he quit baseball. He resents me for this. When we have rehashed the situation, he says he wished I would have just said - we'll find a way to make this work. Bottom line in my interpretation is wishing I would have been supportive. I told him to play again this season & I will never complain once. He is & I haven't.
I have bent on things for him in the past too, though. Unlike him, I never kept score. I only went back & thought of these things since he dropped the bomb bc I was trying to analyze if things were always just about me.
He thinks I always have to have my way - that's another thing he has said.
Right now: I have stopped complaining about him wanting to do things on his own. Giving him space. No R talk. I am watching my tone - he always says it's not what I say but how I say it.
The positives:
1. Still in same bed
2. At home
3. Goes to MC
4. Says he is noticing me making changes & it is nice
5. Does homework from MC
6. Has said he appreciates me "trying"
7. Communicates w/me about where he is going & calls/emails me throughout the day - for instance on Fri said he might go out for some beers w/a friend after work. Calls later on to tell me who he is going with & where. Texts me later to saying they are leaving X establishment to go to Y establishment.
8. At MC 2 weeks ago said he takes 50% of the blame. MC says what are you doing to own your 50%? H says - coming here & trying to take more of an interest in what she is doing. He never said he was willing to "try" to do anything until this point.
The negatives:
1. No talk of future - limboland
2. No physical touch
3. No spending time together (outside of watching tv in the evenings)
I guess when things were better, we were more carefree. We didn't have so many responsibilities. If he wanted to do something, he did it. I wanted to do something, I did it.
LL - for him words of affirmation will be my focus. For me quality time. What do you mean by centering the conversation? Please give me suggestions!
H says I was too controlling -
He thinks I always have to have my way - that's another thing he has said.
Right now: I have stopped complaining about him wanting to do things on his own. Giving him space. No R talk. I am watching my tone - he always says it's not what I say but how I say it.
The positives:
1. Still in same bed
2. At home
3. Goes to MC
4. Says he is noticing me making changes & it is nice
5. Does homework from MC
6. Has said he appreciates me "trying"
7. Communicates w/me about where he is going & calls/emails me throughout the day - for instance on Fri said he might go out for some beers w/a friend after work. Calls later on to tell me who he is going with & where. Texts me later to saying they are leaving X establishment to go to Y establishment.
8. At MC 2 weeks ago said he takes 50% of the blame. MC says what are you doing to own your 50%? H says - coming here & trying to take more of an interest in what she is doing. He never said he was willing to "try" to do anything until this point.
The negatives:
1. No talk of future - limboland
2. No physical touch
3. No spending time together (outside of watching tv in the evenings)
I guess when things were better, we were more carefree. We didn't have so many responsibilities. If he wanted to do something, he did it. I wanted to do something, I did it.
LL - for him words of affirmation will be my focus. For me quality time. What do you mean by centering the conversation? Please give me suggestions!
Hopeful......you know, us Virginians need to stick together....LOL
So what are you doing about those things? It has been said to NOT believe anything you hear, but one does have to put some creedence in the complaints. Although they are not entirely true, they are contributors to the breakdown of things.
I did not think I was controlling until I read about controlling behaviours. I was shocked at how controlling I really was...More from being critical than anything.
Control can come from anything that makes the other person"s sense of themselves feel threatened.
I.E. Walking by something that they are cooking. taste it and adding salt without asking.... That is criticism . Whather we think that at the time is irrelevant. It is what they sense as being the problem.
It's good to list your positives and negatives....but keep them in check for yourself. Expectations can kill YOU, and I mean both positive and negative ones...
I'm going to put up something that I posted last week over in MLC. It is a compiled list of things that helped me get through the early stages of this.....
Maybe some of this can help explain to you, and hopefully others can get something from it too....
I had actually found a few different articles that got me through the toughest part of this.....understanding.
A few things pasted together .....
Now there are two kinds of divorce that happen, sort of at the same time. One is the legal divorce, and the other one is the emotional divorce.
We get the two confused.
We think we're going to stop the emotional divorce by stopping the legal divorce. The more you try to stop the legal side of divorce, the more rebellious he or she feels.
The more you use pressure, the less they see your inner beauty and your charm.
Everybody thinks, professionals and non-professionals alike, they say to have a happy marriage or a happy relationship, you have to work at it.
But it's the working that makes it not work right now.
When you criticize, you're working at improving your mate.
When you complain to your lover, you're working at improving them.
When you argue, you're working at improving them.
When you try to reason with them.
When you tell them how much you love them.
Both when you're reasoning and when you're telling them how much you love them, you are trying to change them. You are working at changing them. And it's that working at changing them, that is the only problem.
Proof? You want proof?
Stop all of that, and watch the relationship get better.
Stop all of that working. Allow and accept, one hundred percent, whatever your mate thinks, feels, or does is perfectly okay.
It's perfectly okay.
And watch them improve themselves.
Their negative feelings towards you will weaken rapidly, because their negative feeling needs something in you to fight with. And when you sincerely see what's on their side, when you sincerely agree with them, and when you lovingly and sincerely go one hundred percent totally, instantly, and happily your mate's way, when you do that there's nothing for their negative feeling to build on.
You have put the white flag up.
You've thrown your gun down.
That forces them to do the same thing. They cannot shoot you when you have no gun. When you're not defending yourself, THEY want to defend you.
It's not normal to not defend yourself, but it is healthy.
Agree with them.
Do not disagree at all.
It's not to your advantage.
....Her negative or his negative attitudes towards you are being supported by you communicating what you want.
Every time you say to them, "But, I love you," you are saying, "but I want something different than what you want. You want to pull away, but I want you to come closer. I don't really care what you want. It's what I want that's important."
Lots of times men tell their wives, "I've changed. I've changed. Let's get back together. I've changed."
I tell the husbands that "Every time you say, 'I've changed,' you're communicating to her that you have not changed."
"Really? Why is that? How is that? I don't understand that."
"Of course, you don't understand. But what's your motivation? Why are you telling him or her how you've changed? What's your purpose? Isn't it to get your way?"
"Yeah, I want her back."
"That's your way. It's not her way, right now. She said she may consider it later, maybe, but not right now. And every time you say, 'I've changed,' you're saying, 'Give me my way! Give me my way! Give me my way! What I want is more important than what you want. I don't give a hoot what you want."
And subconsciously, she says, "He hasn't changed. He's still the neurotic, selfish, pressuring guy he always was. There's no way I'm going to go back to him, or feel positive to him as long as he is this way."
I really appreciate your post & yes, Virginians do need to stick together!
I agree with everything. Actions speak louder than words so I don't need to point out my changes. He will eventually see the 180s. Like I said above, he has acknowledged in MC some changes & said they were nice. We also have homework for MC where we name something we appreciate about our spouse every night. Last week when he had to work late, he said he appreciated the fact that I didn't get upset that he had to work late. That tells me that HE THOUGHT I WOULD be upset. Yes! A 180 that was not only acknowledged, but appreciated
I really appreciate your post & yes, Virginians do need to stick together!
I agree with everything. Actions speak louder than words so I don't need to point out my changes. He will eventually see the 180s. Like I said above, he has acknowledged in MC some changes & said they were nice. We also have homework for MC where we name something we appreciate about our spouse every night. Last week when he had to work late, he said he appreciated the fact that I didn't get upset that he had to work late. That tells me that HE THOUGHT I WOULD be upset. Yes! A 180 that was not only acknowledged, but appreciated
Good for you.....180's are great huh ?
Now.....When you can get to the point where you do them because they are a part of you instead of expecting a reaction from him.....Then you are on your way....
Changes and 180's have to be about you becoming you, and NOT used as a ploy or for reaction from you spouse...
Baby steps will heal you too......
H says I was too controlling -
He thinks I always have to have my way - that's another thing he has said.
Right now: I have stopped complaining about him wanting to do things on his own. Giving him space. No R talk. I am watching my tone - he always says it's not what I say but how I say it.
The positives:
1. Still in same bed
2. At home
3. Goes to MC
4. Says he is noticing me making changes & it is nice
5. Does homework from MC
6. Has said he appreciates me "trying"
7. Communicates w/me about where he is going & calls/emails me throughout the day - for instance on Fri said he might go out for some beers w/a friend after work. Calls later on to tell me who he is going with & where. Texts me later to saying they are leaving X establishment to go to Y establishment.
8. At MC 2 weeks ago said he takes 50% of the blame. MC says what are you doing to own your 50%? H says - coming here & trying to take more of an interest in what she is doing. He never said he was willing to "try" to do anything until this point.
The negatives:
1. No talk of future - limboland
2. No physical touch
3. No spending time together (outside of watching tv in the evenings)
I guess when things were better, we were more carefree. We didn't have so many responsibilities. If he wanted to do something, he did it. I wanted to do something, I did it.
LL - for him words of affirmation will be my focus. For me quality time. What do you mean by centering the conversation? Please give me suggestions!
Hopeful......you know, us Virginians need to stick together....LOL
So what are you doing about those things? It has been said to NOT believe anything you hear, but one does have to put some creedence in the complaints. Although they are not entirely true, they are contributors to the breakdown of things.
I did not think I was controlling until I read about controlling behaviours. I was shocked at how controlling I really was...More from being critical than anything.
Control can come from anything that makes the other person"s sense of themselves feel threatened.
I.E. Walking by something that they are cooking. taste it and adding salt without asking.... That is criticism . Whather we think that at the time is irrelevant. It is what they sense as being the problem.
It's good to list your positives and negatives....but keep them in check for yourself. Expectations can kill YOU, and I mean both positive and negative ones...
I'm going to put up something that I posted last week over in MLC. It is a compiled list of things that helped me get through the early stages of this.....
Maybe some of this can help explain to you, and hopefully others can get something from it too....
I had actually found a few different articles that got me through the toughest part of this.....understanding.
A few things pasted together .....
Now there are two kinds of divorce that happen, sort of at the same time. One is the legal divorce, and the other one is the emotional divorce.
We get the two confused.
We think we're going to stop the emotional divorce by stopping the legal divorce. The more you try to stop the legal side of divorce, the more rebellious he or she feels.
The more you use pressure, the less they see your inner beauty and your charm.
Everybody thinks, professionals and non-professionals alike, they say to have a happy marriage or a happy relationship, you have to work at it.
But it's the working that makes it not work right now.
When you criticize, you're working at improving your mate.
When you complain to your lover, you're working at improving them.
When you argue, you're working at improving them.
When you try to reason with them.
When you tell them how much you love them.
Both when you're reasoning and when you're telling them how much you love them, you are trying to change them. You are working at changing them. And it's that working at changing them, that is the only problem.
Proof? You want proof?
Stop all of that, and watch the relationship get better.
Stop all of that working. Allow and accept, one hundred percent, whatever your mate thinks, feels, or does is perfectly okay.
It's perfectly okay.
And watch them improve themselves.
Their negative feelings towards you will weaken rapidly, because their negative feeling needs something in you to fight with. And when you sincerely see what's on their side, when you sincerely agree with them, and when you lovingly and sincerely go one hundred percent totally, instantly, and happily your mate's way, when you do that there's nothing for their negative feeling to build on.
You have put the white flag up.
You've thrown your gun down.
That forces them to do the same thing. They cannot shoot you when you have no gun. When you're not defending yourself, THEY want to defend you.
It's not normal to not defend yourself, but it is healthy.
Agree with them.
Do not disagree at all.
It's not to your advantage.
....Her negative or his negative attitudes towards you are being supported by you communicating what you want.
Every time you say to them, "But, I love you," you are saying, "but I want something different than what you want. You want to pull away, but I want you to come closer. I don't really care what you want. It's what I want that's important."
Lots of times men tell their wives, "I've changed. I've changed. Let's get back together. I've changed."
I tell the husbands that "Every time you say, 'I've changed,' you're communicating to her that you have not changed."
"Really? Why is that? How is that? I don't understand that."
"Of course, you don't understand. But what's your motivation? Why are you telling him or her how you've changed? What's your purpose? Isn't it to get your way?"
"Yeah, I want her back."
"That's your way. It's not her way, right now. She said she may consider it later, maybe, but not right now. And every time you say, 'I've changed,' you're saying, 'Give me my way! Give me my way! Give me my way! What I want is more important than what you want. I don't give a hoot what you want."
And subconsciously, she says, "He hasn't changed. He's still the neurotic, selfish, pressuring guy he always was. There's no way I'm going to go back to him, or feel positive to him as long as he is this way."
I want to needlepoint this and put it in front of me where I can look at it all the time
I want to needlepoint this and put it in front of me where I can look at it all the time
Uhmmmm......
Good Luck ?
That would be one strong needlepoint project.......
Better yet ?
Just let it become a part of you...
Once again, I totally agree - I want to change so badly, but it is HARD!
I agree with that. We are all in this together.
You need to find Sandi2. She was a WAW. Amazing chick.
I want to needlepoint this and put it in front of me where I can look at it all the time
Uhmmmm......
Good Luck ?
That would be one strong needlepoint project.......
Better yet ?
Just let it become a part of you...
I will, LOL. I have a knack for starting craft projects and not finishing them...
H and I always joked about places like "Honest John's Used Cars" - if they have to tell you, they're probably not...
You need to find Sandi2. She was a WAW. Amazing chick.
Yes she is....and has some absolutely amazing insight into this crap.....
Only thing is....SHE cannot make YOUR changes....
Not saying that to be a d**k or anything......Just saying that your changes have to be real and for yourself...
Hard ? Yes it is, but who said hard wasn't worth the walk ?
Thats what makes us different from other people now.....
We know the difference....
I usually post in MLC, but I thought I would stop over here today and see who is hangin out here lately.....
I'm glad I did.
Y'all sound strong....Keep it up.
Strive to be better.....or else you will fail yourself, which is worse than failing in a marriage....
H and I always joked about places like "Honest John's Used Cars" - if they have to tell you, they're probably not...
Oh yea......when someone says "trust me" ?
Yea, probably shouldn't do that.....
Holy crap Mach that's good s---, I could not agree more! Every single point you made there I was saying YES, YES,YES. This is by far the best and most complete list I've read on here thus far.
Thank-you.
_________________________
Me 42, Her 34
M 3yrs, T 8yrs
D 5 S 3 S 2
ILYBINILWY 02/09
Sleeping in same bed/no intimacy
"I,m done" her words: 05/28/09
She moves out end of Sept/09 till then "in limbo"
Once again, I totally agree - I want to change so badly, but it is HARD!
Not really, Assessing what you want to change is much harder.
Look in that mirror, and ask yourself what about YOU sucks .....
What you could do better and what you think you have a good handle on...
Make a list of things and check them off one at a time....
Don't go all phsyco and come home with orange hair or anything.....Just gradually take the time and have the patience to adjust yourself to fit you and the children.
I made a list of everything that I wanted in a relationship.
Honesty
Dignity
Patience
Understanding
etc.....
Has to be your list...NOT mine.....LOL
And everynight, I would check those things off depending on whether of not I showed those things........If I did ?
Then I slept well.....
Dignity, Honor , and Grace are an absolute neccessity in this....
Patience doesn't hurt either.....
I am so doing that list right now. I love the idea. I'm mad that I have to cross the orange hair off, but whatever works...LOL
I am so doing that list right now. I love the idea. I'm mad that I have to cross the orange hair off, but whatever works...LOL
Yea me too.....I heard that Orange is the new Grey....
Let me see your list when you are done.....
"If he did this it would have been nice to have been told!"
Communication is a big part of it. We all think we are the best communicators ever. Lets take this approach with this for right now. I don't see any notice of D or him moving out or wanting you to move out. So your "homework" would be to try and find the moments when he is "talking" to you. Right now the best thing you could do for you is just try and observe the "stitch". Try and look at things with a new "eye".
You need to be clear with what you want from all this. That does not mean saying anything. A big part of this is removing yourself from the "Emotion" of it and making choices because you believe it to be the right thing for you.
Mach1 had some solid advice.. and I agree.
Most of what you read about here in "Newbies" is generally a fight for "Control". They want to leave you want them to stay. So things usually go downhill quick. If you can understand that giving them some "Control" of their life and the choices they are making is not a bad thing.. things will become more clear. Hence "Act as if"...
If you "act as if" none of this bothers you... or you "act as if" you are happy all the time.. It can throw them off because you have stopped re-acting in a manner they are accustomed to. So long story short you take back some "Control" by giving some away.
"LL - for him words of affirmation will be my focus. For me quality time. What do you mean by centering the conversation? Please give me suggestions!"
Most of the time you can get something from someone by "feeding" them. In the aspect of the LL if you give words of affirmation you may receive quality time. You can test your theory on what his LL is by acting upon it. If you say "Hey thanks for dinner it was great!" and you get a positive response then you could expand on that and see how many positive responses you can generate. If you "see" a consistent theme then maybe you throw in.. "Hey dinner was great.. wanna pop some popcorn and watch a movie?" Best thing I can say is break things down into their simplistic form and think from there.
Thanks Forrest,
Never actually met.....
But yes........what he said .../\
If those things aren't real, and for you, they will show up like a pimple on your nose in a Prom picture.....
I need some advice for mc tomorrow. I am fortunate that I get some time to talk about r, but I have to be extremely cautious. I was thinking it would be important to affirm the effort he said he is making to take an interest in what I am doing. I also thought about thanking him for owning his 50% of the blame for not communicating with me, but add that in my soul searching, I can see that I haven't always been the most fun person to talk to. This is something else that I am vowing to work on. I will take anything as constructive criticism from here on out. I also wanted to stress that I am making these changes for ME. Any feedback?
I don't really have feedback Hopeful, other than validate. That is what I read about all the time.
I thought this was an interesting article that I found on another post...and it seems appropriate for this thread...it SERIOUSLY hit home with me...and the whole martyrdom thing we touched on here. Some of you have probably read this already but I thought I would share....
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html ...praying for us all!!!
Anyone else? I need advice!
Anyone else? I need advice!
Did you finish your list ?
Use those things that YOU want and project that to him.....The changes that you have made so far are evident.
Apply what you know, what you want, and the changes that you have made, and then all you have to EVER be is yourself...
That's when it feels good.....
The hardest part is trusting yourself that your changes are real.....
If YOU doubt YOU, then that will be what shines through...
Dignity, Honor, and Grace ......
Be the change that you want to see in him........
My list thus far:
Dignity
Honor
Grace
Patient
Wisdom
Confident
Kind
Joyful
Loving
Peaceful
My list thus far:
Dignity
Honor
Grace
Patient
Wisdom
Confident
Kind
Joyful
Loving
Peaceful
Open Minded
How is that working so far ?
Looks like a good list......
I feel like I will be able to do this!
Ok mc did not go well. Every week h has a gripe about something I said or did. Mc has asked him to communicate with me anytime he has a problem instead of holding it in until we get there & then complaining about it.
We chat a bit & mc asks if I said anything in the past 2 wkd that has offended him. He said no. Mc says how did that feel? H says I didn't really notice bc I've disconnected. Nothing has changed with regard to my feelings for her. Mc asked h to look me in the eye & say that. Looks at me & says my feelings just aren't there for you, sorry.
I totally kept my composure! Completely confident & it felt so liberating! Mc says how do you think she feels. H says I can't tell. I said my dream is still that our m will survive & that our kids will have a family. In the meantime I am becoming the best me I can be for wherever this life takes me. I realize I am the only one that can make me happy.
H says she finally gets it - she's a strong person & no matter how things end up, we will all survive. I say survive implies just getting by. And I'm not okay with that.
We talk about other bs stuff. At the end I say I would like to ask you something. When you said you weren't feeling anything for me, do u want to? Are you trying to? H says to b honest, no. I say then why are we here? H says bc I didn't want to leave any stone unturned & I don't think I have.
Mc you will take baggage with you to your next r if you don't practice how you want things to be now. H says I already have been. I'm vein assertive. If I want to work late, I do. If I want to go out with my friends, I do. I said well even with you being more assertive, you still don't have any complaints about me so I think our worlds can coexist.
I feel like I've stripped all his complaints away & he's still not ready to look in the mirror & maybe he never will. He said people can't change & now there's no disputing that I am making changes. Maybe it just hasn't been long enough & he thinks it's fake?
Now what? I want to go dark, but we live in the same house!
Your post is really inspirational. Can you keep doing what you are doing? Maybe back off a little (emotionally detach, keep your composure).
Sometimes a person just really wants/needs to leave for his/her own reasons.
You seem to be doing really well.
Hope,
So YOU think it didn't go well......
Sometimes with the changes we finally make with us, applying them feels very wrong at the time.
But they are the things that need to happen.
That is why it is so crucial that they be for YOU and not for a ploy to win them back.
Question for you......Can YOU look in the mirror today and know that you did what was right for you and you alone ?
Did you incorporate your list into your interactions ?
The problem that I have with you not thinking things went well is, that THAT is an assumption.
In reality, you have no earthly idea how it was interpreted by him.
When you turn the lights out at night, can you rest your head and fall asleep at peace with YOUR interactions.
BTW.....I think you handled yourself well......This is a new you he is starting to see....
Fake it till you make it....
sic semper tyrannis !!!!
What county ?
I honestly feel great about how I handled myself & the characteristics from my list that I projected. I took my dignity back. Prince William & you?
LOL.......
VERY close......Right below you....
Pay attention.. this might be good.
"Every week h has a gripe about something I said or did."
This is a given. Of course he will blame you.
"Mc has asked him to communicate with me anytime he has a problem instead of holding it in until we get there & then complaining about it."
Now could the C have said the same thing to you?
Remember Communication is key.
"We chat a bit & mc asks if I said anything in the past 2 wkd that has offended him. He said no. Mc says how did that feel? H says I didn't really notice bc I've disconnected. Nothing has changed with regard to my feelings for her. Mc asked h to look me in the eye & say that. Looks at me & says my feelings just aren't there for you, sorry."
If I took a gun and held it to your head and said.. say "this". What would you do? Would you say what I wanted you to say? Imagine him in the same place.
When you find yourself at the end of your rope and ready to let go.. you will do and say anything. That is where he is.
"Mc says how do you think she feels. H says I can't tell."
A little hint.. he could not tell how you felt long before you were sitting in that room with the MC.
"H says she finally gets it - she's a strong person & no matter how things end up, we will all survive. I say survive implies just getting by. And I'm not okay with that."
This his clearly his view on things. How can you overcome that?
"We talk about other bs stuff. At the end I say I would like to ask you something. When you said you weren't feeling anything for me, do u want to? Are you trying to? H says to b honest, no. I say then why are we here? H says bc I didn't want to leave any stone unturned & I don't think I have."
I have long pondered why people do the things they do. It has shown me that people do things cause the "options" don't seem any better. What "options" do you offer?
"I feel like I've stripped all his complaints away & he's still not ready to look in the mirror & maybe he never will."
I don't know that I really like that statement. It kinda says.. I win. It makes me ponder what he really see's in you.
"He said people can't change & now there's no disputing that I am making changes. Maybe it just hasn't been long enough & he thinks it's fake?"
People can change. At the very least I am an example of that. Some time ago I would have been really hard on you.
"Now what?"
"I forgot open minded."
Sometimes.. the things we forget.. are the most important things.
They seem small and petty. But sometimes they are the key.
The people that rise above all "this" are the people that I watch.
You are almost there. But I think you need to really look at what he is saying.. and what is going on around you.
Some questions..
Why is the man that wants to leave... not gone yet?
What kind of person does he think you are?
What kind of person are you?
Do you really know how to "Love" him?
How much are you.. willing to give?
I want your thoughts on these questions. You cannot answer with what you have heard from him.
"Prince William & you?"
100 miles South.
Now could the C have said the same thing to you?
Remember Communication is key.I guess so, but there is not supposed to be any R talk...and me telling him something that I don't like, would be taken as a criticism no matter how I phrase it. I guess I don't understand what I should be communicating to him that I haven't already.
"We chat a bit & mc asks if I said anything in the past 2 wkd that has offended him. He said no. Mc says how did that feel? H says I didn't really notice bc I've disconnected. Nothing has changed with regard to my feelings for her. Mc asked h to look me in the eye & say that. Looks at me & says my feelings just aren't there for you, sorry."
If I took a gun and held it to your head and said.. say "this". What would you do? Would you say what I wanted you to say? Imagine him in the same place.I don't understand - he already said it before she asked him to turn & say it to me.
"Mc says how do you think she feels. H says I can't tell."
A little hint.. he could not tell how you felt long before you were sitting in that room with the MC.I forgot to mention something here. First he said (trying to be funny) - she's probably cussing me out in her head. Then he said I can't tell. I think he was EXPECTING me to be angry, but when I kept my composure & wasn't AND I wasn't even looking sad, it threw him off.
H says she finally gets it - she's a strong person & no matter how things end up, we will all survive. I say survive implies just getting by. And I'm not okay with that."
This his clearly his view on things. How can you overcome that?I don't know - any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Sometimes I feel like this whole thing is one big riddle & I'm not good at riddles!
"We talk about other bs stuff. At the end I say I would like to ask you something. When you said you weren't feeling anything for me, do u want to? Are you trying to? H says to b honest, no. I say then why are we here? H says bc I didn't want to leave any stone unturned & I don't think I have."
I have long pondered why people do the things they do. It has shown me that people do things cause the "options" don't seem any better. What "options" do you offer?I've tried to offer the option of staying married to me & me making changes. I don't know what else there could be??? Once again, any suggestions or examples?
"I feel like I've stripped all his complaints away & he's still not ready to look in the mirror & maybe he never will."
I don't know that I really like that statement. It kinda says.. I win. It makes me ponder what he really see's in you.I was just happy that I achieved my goal...this does relate to THE VERY FIRST THING he said in MC back in Feb - H thinks I ALWAYS have to get my way.
"I forgot open minded."
Sometimes.. the things we forget.. are the most important things.I agree
Why is the man that wants to leave... not gone yet?I don't know - sometimes I think it's only bc I asked him for 6 months to work on our R in MC & that timeframe will be up in Aug, sometimes I think it's bc he knows deep down that this is the wrong thing to do & there is alot at stake, sometimes I think he hasn't REALLY thought through the ramifications of a divorce
What kind of person does he think you are?He has said he knows I love him & would do anything for him...on the other hand, controlling, inflexible, probably selfish, condescending, cold
What kind of person are you?Loyal, honest, loving, compassionate & trying to change the inflexible, opinionated, selfish part - I think I'm doing a pretty good job now.
Do you really know how to "Love" him?I think it starts by acknowledging that my dreams were not "our dreams" - they were mine & I didn't bother to find out if they were "his" bc I made assumptions - any thoughts?
How much are you.. willing to give?I'm willing to sacrifice alot, I'm willing to give 100%
I also wanted to mention that when he said I am more assertive now, if I want to work late, I do. If I want to go out w/my friends, I do. BUT...when we are at home, he doesn't
flex his muscles like he acts like he does in C. For instance, he said he wanted to go to a cookout w/his baseball team so he says "Do you care if I go?" I said nope - go ahead. He said - no I think you'll be mad. I said I won't be. Things like that - he doesn't act like mr. tough guy at home.
Now could the C have said the same thing to you?
Remember Communication is key.I guess so, but there is not supposed to be any R talk...and me telling him something that I don't like, would be taken as a criticism no matter how I phrase it. I guess I don't understand what I should be communicating to him that I haven't already.
No R talk ? Actually R talk is not bad, it is R talk that is started by you that is bad, if HE WANTS to talk about it, then you should listen and validate. "We chat a bit & mc asks if I said anything in the past 2 wkd that has offended him. He said no. Mc says how did that feel? H says I didn't really notice bc I've disconnected. Nothing has changed with regard to my feelings for her. Mc asked h to look me in the eye & say that. Looks at me & says my feelings just aren't there for you, sorry."
If I took a gun and held it to your head and said.. say "this". What would you do? Would you say what I wanted you to say? Imagine him in the same place.I don't understand - he already said it before she asked him to turn & say it to me.
Hope, this is MAJOR pressure for him. To him, it feels like having a gun to his head to make a choice, and he is incapable of making the one that YOU want him to make right now. His confusion says to run, and that is what is driving him. "Mc says how do you think she feels. H says I can't tell."
A little hint.. he could not tell how you felt long before you were sitting in that room with the MC.I forgot to mention something here. First he said (trying to be funny) - she's probably cussing me out in her head. Then he said I can't tell. I think he was EXPECTING me to be angry, but when I kept my composure & wasn't AND I wasn't even looking sad, it threw him off.
H says she finally gets it - she's a strong person & no matter how things end up, we will all survive. I say survive implies just getting by. And I'm not okay with that."
This his clearly his view on things. How can you overcome that?I don't know - any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Sometimes I feel like this whole thing is one big riddle & I'm not good at riddles!
Stop focusing on him, and do right by you.....stop wondering what he is thinking. If you really have the qualities listed below, they should shine through. Hence checking the list EVERYDAY to re-evaluate your actions."We talk about other bs stuff. At the end I say I would like to ask you something. When you said you weren't feeling anything for me, do u want to? Are you trying to? H says to b honest, no. I say then why are we here? H says bc I didn't want to leave any stone unturned & I don't think I have."
I have long pondered why people do the things they do. It has shown me that people do things cause the "options" don't seem any better. What "options" do you offer?I've tried to offer the option of staying married to me & me making changes. I don't know what else there could be??? Once again, any suggestions or examples?
How appealing is that option for him ? Could you live with someone like you have admitted being ?"I feel like I've stripped all his complaints away & he's still not ready to look in the mirror & maybe he never will."
I don't know that I really like that statement. It kinda says.. I win. It makes me ponder what he really see's in you.I was just happy that I achieved my goal...this does relate to THE VERY FIRST THING he said in MC back in Feb - H thinks I ALWAYS have to get my way.
YOU feel that way.......Does he ? "I forgot open minded."
Sometimes.. the things we forget.. are the most important things.I agree
Why is the man that wants to leave... not gone yet?I don't know - sometimes I think it's only bc I asked him for 6 months to work on our R in MC & that timeframe will be up in Aug, sometimes I think it's bc he knows deep down that this is the wrong thing to do & there is alot at stake, sometimes I think he hasn't REALLY thought through the ramifications of a divorce
What kind of person does he think you are?He has said he knows I love him & would do anything for him...on the other hand, controlling, inflexible, probably selfish, condescending, cold
What kind of person are you?Loyal, honest, loving, compassionate & trying to change the inflexible, opinionated, selfish part - I think I'm doing a pretty good job now.
Those two are VERY confusing to me....Because those two descriptions are very hard to confuse. Which one ARE you and which one do you WANT to be ? Do you really know how to "Love" him?I think it starts by acknowledging that my dreams were not "our dreams" - they were mine & I didn't bother to find out if they were "his" bc I made assumptions - any thoughts?
Uhmmmm, STOP assuming ? Assumptions are killers...How much are you.. willing to give?I'm willing to sacrifice alot, I'm willing to give 100%
IMHO ? Not 100 %......YOU are too high a price to pay for this....I also wanted to mention that when he said I am more assertive now, if I want to work late, I do. If I want to go out w/my friends, I do. BUT...when we are at home, he doesn't
flex his muscles like he acts like he does in C. For instance, he said he wanted to go to a cookout w/his baseball team so he says "Do you care if I go?" I said nope - go ahead. He said - no I think you'll be mad. I said I won't be. Things like that - he doesn't act like mr. tough guy at home.
100 miles should put you pretty close to me Forrest.....
P-burg ?
"He said people can't change & now there's no disputing that I am making changes. Maybe it just hasn't been long enough & he thinks it's fake?"
People can change. At the very least I am an example of that. Some time ago I would have been really hard on you.
Forrest, Was it the unicorns?
Feeling a little froggy.
Cheers
Coach
No R talk ? Actually R talk is not bad, it is R talk that is started by you that is bad, if HE WANTS to talk about it, then you should listen and validate.
He doesn't talk about it. Only in MC.
How appealing is that option for him ? Could you live with someone like you have admitted being ?
I would think not the way I WAS acting, but now I am making changes. I guess the only option is for him to see the changes consistently for a longer period of time.
I was just happy that I achieved my goal...this does relate to THE VERY FIRST THING he said in MC back in Feb - H thinks I ALWAYS have to get my way.
YOU feel that way.......Does he ?
I'm sure he doesn't - once again don't know what he thinks, but he probably thinks I'm just making changes to try to get my way. He said in MC that I "played the part".
Those two are VERY confusing to me....Because those two descriptions are very hard to confuse. Which one ARE you and which one do you WANT to be ?
I know it seems confusing, but I believe I am/was both. I think I could be seen as inflexible, opinionated, selfish part , selfish in the sense that I made assumptions bc H didn't assert himself so I thought I was doing the best things for "us". Inflexible & opinionated in the sense that I can be aggressive & strong willed when it comes to something I believe in. But I am also a very tender person, a very loyal person - I am described as doing anything for my friends, always being there, etc.
No R talk ? Actually R talk is not bad, it is R talk that is started by you that is bad, if HE WANTS to talk about it, then you should listen and validate.
He doesn't talk about it. Only in MC.
Then follow the lead. HE is lashing out at the MC because he feels he HAS to. Actually, it has become a stage for him to express his anger. No R talk started by you is for a reason.
How appealing is that option for him ? Could you live with someone like you have admitted being ?
I would think not the way I WAS acting, but now I am making changes. I guess the only option is for him to see the changes consistently for a longer period of time.
This takes time and consistancy in your ACTIONS.....not words. You are NEVER going to talk your way out of something you acted your way in to. I suppose you are the kind of person that throws a seed on the ground and impatiently waits for it to grow ? It takes time for those to become real for you, and even longer for him.
I was just happy that I achieved my goal...this does relate to THE VERY FIRST THING he said in MC back in Feb - H thinks I ALWAYS have to get my way.
YOU feel that way.......Does he ?
I'm sure he doesn't - once again don't know what he thinks, but he probably thinks I'm just making changes to try to get my way. He said in MC that I "played the part".
If you aren't playing......It will show in time..As long as YOU are real
Those two are VERY confusing to me....Because those two descriptions are very hard to confuse. Which one ARE you and which one do you WANT to be ?
I know it seems confusing, but I believe I am/was both. I think I could be seen as inflexible, opinionated, selfish part , selfish in the sense that I made assumptions bc H didn't assert himself so I thought I was doing the best things for "us". Inflexible & opinionated in the sense that I can be aggressive & strong willed when it comes to something I believe in. But I am also a very tender person, a very loyal person - I am described as doing anything for my friends, always being there, etc.
Still not answering me....WHICH ONE DO YOU WANT TO BE ???
Which one fits the list you made ?
How are your actions different enforcing them ?
Look in that mirror Hope....
This takes time and consistancy in your ACTIONS.....not words. You are NEVER going to talk your way out of something you acted your way in to.
Man, I was starting to feel sorry for myself that I have not seen a positive reaction from my W, then I read that. Thanks. Great point.
Hi Hopeful
What part of VA do you live? I'm from right outside DC.
But anyways.
It almost seems like you and H are trying to "win" in MC. Just because your H wants to divorce doesn't mean he's wrong.....It's taken me a very long time to realize that about my H. And since then I've been able to let go of being angry at him for wanting this and that's gone a long way for us.
But I for sure believe that because my H wants a divorce he is broken hearted....I'm not the only one suffering.
Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy? My girlfriend asks me that all the time and it's a pretty good question. I want to be happy. I used to love to be right.
Have you ever asked him, "What is great marriage to you? What would that be? Describe it to me."?
Have you asked yourself that?
And really, you can see yourself as anyway you want. That's your perspective.
But perception is 99% accurate....or so they say. And if your H sees you in a completely differently light, you better believe him. Assume he's not saying it to be mean, maybe he really feels/and sees you this way. And then work from there. If you think the changes he needs from you are ridiculous then you are at an impass. But if he wants some changes that you think would be doable and maybe even beneficial, then go for it. Once you change, he'll change too.
For me it was so hard to make changes and then not get the reaction or response from my H that I thought I DESERVED for my hard work. And then it would cause a fight because he was not doing what I wanted him to do. Try to avoid that if you can, a true waste of my time.
And what are you doing for you? When do you get out of the house and away for just Hopeful time to do what you want?
Man---
What happened to "Virginia is for lovers"??????
I am from the beach!
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Man---
What happened to "Virginia is for lovers"??????
I am from the beach!
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
I'm thinking we may have a case for false advertising.....
Unless they meant the OP...
that's why they asked me to leave.
I have to disagree with you. I don't want to win. I want to make my changes & hopefully be able to rebuild a new R with the father of my children. I don't believe I am trying to win in MC. I am just trying to work on myself & answer questions that MC asks. If I wanted to be right, I would say to heck with you, I'm fine the way I am, lots of other people like me, you obviously don't love me unconditionally, SEE YA.
I think I have finally become able to detach. I have finally become able to make my changes for ME. I have stopped living in fear. I don't worry about getting a divorce anymore. If H is going to do it, I can't stop him. Of course you always hang onto your hopes & dreams, but they may not always be fulfilled the way I think they should.
I'm outside of DC as well.
Do you think I should ask him to describe a great marriage? In MC maybe?
Yes, I know how I envision a great marriage. 2 people who are best friends & live their lives as equals. Always putting the other above themselves. If there is a stalemate in decision-making, one differs to the other, knowing that the other loves their family & will make the best decision they can for all of us. Never keeping score.
From the description of the bad MC session, it sounded like a who's going to win? session. Who can make the other one cry first....
Maybe it's time to put your issues aside. Maybe each of you create a list of crap that is pissing you off including actions and subjects. (meaning when he forgets to pick up the milk or you hate talking about cows and he always brings them up....) And tell him, Truce. Let's put all this crap on the side for now...take out the negative stuff and fill this relationship back up with some positive feelings. Then when we are more solid more positive go back and revisit those problems/issues...whatever.
I'm no therapist for sure but some of those questions your MC asked both of you....well, hell, of course you're upset. The MC actually told your husband to look you in your eyes and say my feelings for you have not changed.....??? Seriously, how does that help you? It sounds like it reinforces his feelings for you and your marriage are bye bye forever.
I think one of the reasons DBers are advised and advise each other to avoid the R talk because the more one person says it's over to the other spouse, the more it seems to become real and sinks in. Stop letting him say it.
And I would ask him, what is your idea of a great marriage? I think your idea is pretty right on. I could live like that.
And I debate this a lot in my own head....do you think it's possible for a couple to love each other unconditionally? Some days I say yes, others I think no way. I think we love our children unconditionally but I wonder if we love our spouses that way....?
Then follow the lead. HE is lashing out at the MC because he feels he HAS to. Actually, it has become a stage for him to express his anger. No R talk started by you is for a reason.
I agree with you on this point, but wonder why has it become a stage for him to express his anger? The previous MC session went well. He took some baby steps & did not act angry. In the session before that one, he was lashing out as well. It's hit or miss. Sometimes I wonder if we should even go to MC.
Still not answering me....WHICH ONE DO YOU WANT TO BE ???
I want to be the loyal, honest, compassion, tender person and
everything on the list. I am deleting the opinionated, inflexible, selfish parts.
How are your actions different enforcing them ?
I'm trying to look at things from other people's points of view.
I am trying to realize that I am not always right.
I am trying to listen better and not make assumptions.
I am trying to put other people's needs above my own.
I am choosing to have a joyful spirit and see the beauty in all things. Starting with my family - trying to just enjoy each day as it comes.
I am trying to be patient with people and realize things don't have to get done my way and in my time.
I think before I speak.
I try not to say anything just to say it, only if there is a benefit (example no reason to criticize).
I am trying to stop worrying about the little things & just let things roll off my back.
I am careful with my tone & thinking about whether or not there is any underlying meaning to why I am telling someone something (H says I give him guilt trips)
From the description of the bad MC session, it sounded like a who's going to win? session. Who can make the other one cry first....
I did not say one thing in MC that was intended to hurt H. As constructive criticism, what did I say that gives you this impression? Just want to know how it could have come off that way.
Maybe it's time to put your issues aside. Maybe each of you create a list of crap that is pissing you off including actions and subjects. (meaning when he forgets to pick up the milk or you hate talking about cows and he always brings them up....) And tell him, Truce. Let's put all this crap on the side for now...take out the negative stuff and fill this relationship back up with some positive feelings. Then when we are more solid more positive go back and revisit those problems/issues...whatever.
How do you get someone who is unwilling to do any work on the R to do this?
I'm no therapist for sure but some of those questions your MC asked both of you....well, hell, of course you're upset. The MC actually told your husband to look you in your eyes and say my feelings for you have not changed.....??? Seriously, how does that help you? It sounds like it reinforces his feelings for you and your marriage are bye bye forever.
I agree
I concur, not you but your MC....what a strange way to make you both communicate. Saying it once wasn't enough he had to look you in the eyes.....WTF? Really? Did you feel better? Do you think your H felt better? I hope not.
Whether your H wants to work on the marriage or not is irrelevant. You have children together. He will want to put the issues aside. I don't believe either of you want to fight or be upset or walk on eggshells or have ripped up tummys from all of the anxiety. I say you don't know until you try. My H was ready to file for divorce...he and his father were working on the agreement. We've since started this way of dealing with each other, we've made small promises to each other and some bigger ones. So far, so good. We are learning to rebuild trust now. The next step that we will get to this week is together making a list where we both decide what we don't want to talk about anymore, fight about or even mention because it doesn't end well. Soon we'll try to conquer actions, but I think that is going to be much more difficult. But my H wants out too. He's been very clear he doesn't want to fix anything he just wants out. But he's trying this with me and much of it has to do with our son. Whatever the reason, why wouldn't your H agree to tabling the issues for a while to build some trust and good feelings then conquer the problems? Who says no to less stress? Try him. Ask him.
Stop every opportunity he has to say it's over, he's only doing this make sure he is walking away with a clear mind set that he did everything.
But he's still home isn't he?
"I guess so, but there is not supposed to be any R talk...and me telling him something that I don't like, would be taken as a criticism no matter how I phrase it. I guess I don't understand what I should be communicating to him that I haven't already."
Talking will not help you much.
What I really want you to do is read what you just wrote.
Just what I quoted. Now.. when you don't understand something what should you do?
What if communicating with him.. did not involve your mouth at all?
Think about it. I know it is hard. But the best thing I could do for you is help you understand. It will be a "light bulb" moment for you.
"I don't understand - he already said it before she asked him to turn & say it to me."
The "gun" reference was to help you understand where he is. When people are backed into a corner they do all kinds of weird things. Take a sample of your life from the past 30 days. Have you done anything weird? Let me say that I was a Semi-LBS. I have worn your shoes. Been to MC and all that. MC was bad for "us". It never ended well. It made me more desperate. If we flip that.. what would you guess he is feeling?
"I forgot to mention something here. First he said (trying to be funny) - she's probably cussing me out in her head. Then he said I can't tell. I think he was EXPECTING me to be angry, but when I kept my composure & wasn't AND I wasn't even looking sad, it threw him off."
So... I was right? He is still looking back. That is all he has. You posted.. so you are no longer looking back. Again.. read what you wrote.. and what "Worked".
"I don't know - any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Sometimes I feel like this whole thing is one big riddle & I'm not good at riddles!"
I have been accused of speaking in riddles. And some of this may seem that way. When some one says "I don't know" at work.. what should they follow that statement up with? (BUT I will find out?) So again.. we point back to "research" what will help?
"I've tried to offer the option of staying married to me & me making changes. I don't know what else there could be??? Once again, any suggestions or examples?"
He will have to make changes to. This is the flaw in your statement. You can't carry this relationship on your own. You have proved that. That is why you are here. You both can grow from this.. poop. Someone has to lead. You got my vote just simply by posting. How can you lead this "stitch" to a better place.. without sacrificing you? That is the question you need to answer.
"I was just happy that I achieved my goal."
"- H thinks I ALWAYS have to get my way."
More of the same maybe?
If your goal was to "strip away the argument". Yes you won.
If your goal was to "show some love". I would question that.
"I agree"
Who has forgotten the most?
"I don't know"
You can't go on what you have heard. You can't look back.
Why is the man that wants to leave... not gone yet?
"He has said he knows I love him & would do anything for him...on the other hand, controlling, inflexible, probably selfish, condescending, cold"
Is this you? Do those words resemble you?
"Loyal, honest, loving, compassionate & trying to change the inflexible, opinionated, selfish part"
It's hard to do with all the "stuff" coming at you isn't it? Can you be that.. with all that is coming at you? Is that who you really are? Was it attractive at some point to "someone"?
"I think it starts by acknowledging that my dreams were not "our dreams"
Wrong.. you fail.
"I'm willing to sacrifice alot, I'm willing to give 100%"
OK you said it.. are you sure?
"I also wanted to mention that when he said I am more assertive now"
I am not sure this is great thing. Please be assertive when you are being "run over". Pick your battles.
"P-burg ?"
10 North.
"Forrest, Was it the unicorns?"
Are you making fun of my Unicorn?
When I am riding my Unicorn.. your wife is posting.
HVA.. don't take what I say as "hard" as it seems. My only goal is to make you think. I want you to think "outside" the box. I want you to answer the questions. I want you to stand out.
Now....
HVA, basically in a sentence: It sounds to me by all I've read you can save this marriage. I think he's definitely dealing with different feelings that could potentially lead to divorce, BUT you can change those feelings for both of you. You can change the momentum of this relationship. But I agree with FG, it's time to stop talking and start doing.
First and foremost STOP talking about the R. Maybe it's time for a new MC? The more opportunities he has to say I want out, it's over...blah blah blah the more real it becomes, the more it manifests itself in his head.
I think you can save this because he's still home. That's huge for the two of you. There's lot of opportunity for you to work on things together without him knowing it.
In an early post you said something about him being on a business trip. He calls you and you ask him what he'll be doing next when you hang up....he says he'll be taking clients to dinner....you said "Must be nice" or "Tough job" I can't remember exactly, but something sarcastic.
Now really really put yourself in his shoes.....how would that make you feel? Is it really part of his job to do that, to wine and dine clients? Then you can't hold it against him. If you are sincerely jealous though, you could have said with sincerity "Man, I wish I had your job. What are you going to eat?" Something silly and who cares? (And I know how it feels to be left at home with the kids. Believe me I know so it's hard to be chipper sometimes. You love them so much but damn, they are hard hard work. Esp. alone.)
Look at it this way, the more understanding you are about his job and the more you tell him that you and the kids miss him, the more he most likely would rather be at home with you all. You have to make home the place he'd rather be more than anything and comments like that.....he only wants to plan more client dinner meetings.
Since all you've really done is make him feel he'd probably rather not call you at all or lie to you when he does about what he's doing because that's easier and has less guilt.
It's hard, believe me I know, but you have to make him want to call you. Make it easy to talk to you. Right now, I bet you both find it hard to call and talk to each other. So take the first step into making it easier. Maybe every now and then call him about something silly--absolutely no point in calling other than to tell him something funny or stupid.
My H and I now have a night for about half an hour when we talk about finances, child stuff, (who's picking up what day), our schedule....all of the business aspects of being in a marriage. That way during the week, it's not the only thing we talk about or call/text each other for. It leaves room to talk about other stuff. See, if all you talk about on the phone is logistics, you are no fun. You're even a bore and chore really. Your calls and your interaction with him becomes "tasks for husband/father".....you get labeled a nag--which in my opinion is completely unfair, but it happens and there's way too much about all of this for all of us here that's truly not fair. But you know what they say about life......
HVA, don't get me wrong....I believe your H has pulled some crap that just sucks and you have the right to be super pissed....but unfortunately saving this marriage right now is all on you just like it's all on me in my marriage. There are days when I'm so pissed at my H for putting me through this, for quitting I just want to scream. I want to punch him in the gut....but where would it get me? Once I calmed down, and I always do, I would regret it and I would be even further back than from where I started.
You can do this but stop talking and start doing. I was told by a friend "You need to lighten up....but more than that, you need to be softer." Maybe this applies to you too.....?
Hang in there.
I agree with you on this point, but wonder why has it become a stage for him to express his anger? The previous MC session went well. He took some baby steps & did not act angry. In the session before that one, he was lashing out as well. It's hit or miss. Sometimes I wonder if we should even go to MC.
It really depends on where he is with this....And you don't know that. Until the anger wears down, it will be a stage that he can use. The less YOU talk R with him, the more he will, cause that is the only avenue he has to vent on you.
MC is your call too....My W and I went to one, and I saw that she was going to use that stage to blame me for everything from a flat tire on the Pope-Mobile to the Blizzard of '96. I quickly told her that it was her choice , but I didn't feel she was ready to address the issues fairly to me, therefor it would be a waste of time at this point to go.
It may be more healing for him to go to IC for a while to sort through things for himself, although he will never admit he has any problems.
Maybe you could suggest that you each see the C independantly for a few weeks before you have the room together.
I think one of the reasons DBers are advised and advise each other to avoid the R talk because the more one person says it's over to the other spouse, the more it seems to become real and sinks in. Stop letting him say it.
Yes, don't give him the chance to answer . Look, This is simple....DON'T ask a question if you are not prepared for the answer....STOP ASKING.....Thats why I think that MC is pushing him away.
Most in this situation say these kind of things to re-enforce THEIR position.....they are trying to convince themselves, not you.
If he spews it again ? Validate
Example....I understand that is the way you feel.
You can't assume you are dealing with a rational person right now....
I'm trying to look at things from other people's points of view.
I am trying to realize that I am not always right.
I am trying to listen better and not make assumptions.
I am trying to put other people's needs above my own.
I am choosing to have a joyful spirit and see the beauty in all things. Starting with my family - trying to just enjoy each day as it comes.
I am trying to be patient with people and realize things don't have to get done my way and in my time.
I think before I speak.
I try not to say anything just to say it, only if there is a benefit (example no reason to criticize).
I am trying to stop worrying about the little things & just let things roll off my back.
I am careful with my tone & thinking about whether or not there is any underlying meaning to why I am telling someone something (H says I give him guilt trips)
One of these is a little more important than the others.....wanna take a guess ?
There is no try.....only DO THE WORK ....
As Forrest said earlier.....not trying to be mean, just expect YOU to do the work to be better....
Forrest, You and I are fairly close....F-burg
Thanks for the input. I think some stuff got lost in translation. The info on the business trips was background information to how we go to where we are today. He quit that job & worked at my company. Now he's back in corporate america, but not traveling.
Pray my weekend goes well!
I don't think it was lost in translation. It was insightful. Great that he no longer has to travel...that does add stress to the spouse at home with kids.
No fights. No talks. Remember you when you were dating him. That you is still you. You're just more mature now as a wife and mother, you should be, but you can still bring out that girl he worked so hard to get to marry him.
Pray my weekend goes well!
Why wouldn't it ?
You know YOU can have a say in that .....right ?
Forrest! My head is spinning. I need straight answers.
Here is what I "get":
I get that I need to show with actions the changes.
I need to continue moving forward & not looking back.
I don't know how I can lead this sitch to a better place w/o sacrificing myself. I am thinking about just giving up. Making my changes & being me. If he doesn't like it, I can't make him.
I was just happy that I achieved my goal."
"- H thinks I ALWAYS have to get my way."
okay so my motivation was wrong? How can I stay motivated to do all these things in an "unconditional love" type way, YET detach?
I think it starts by acknowledging that my dreams were not "our dreams"
Wrong.. you fail.
then what is right?
I also wanted to mention that when he said I am more assertive now"
I am not sure this is great thing. Please be assertive when you are being "run over". Pick your battles.
This was H's words about himself
Is this you? Do those words resemble you?
"Loyal, honest, loving, compassionate & trying to change the inflexible, opinionated, selfish part"It's hard to do with all the "stuff" coming at you isn't it? Can you be that.. with all that is coming at you? Is that who you really are? Was it attractive at some point to "someone"?
Here's the hard part...H LIKED the qualities in me when we met that he DOESN'T like now. He liked that fact that I was brutally honest, he liked that I didn't pull any punches, he liked that I was a strong, assertive woman.
I think I have relaxed on all that stuff over the years and have been told the same thing by many people I am close with even before this happened. I have had H's mother tell me this past Xmas - you have become so friendly over the years. I have had other friends say - you have really changed and grown in your faith over the years, you used to be way more "I don't care what anybody thinks, I'm going to say what I feel" & now you have really toned things down as you've matured. I feel like H is the only person who thinks I do all these things. I have lots of friends, I run a very successful business where my clients become MY FRIENDS and give me lots of referrals. Sometimes I wonder if he is just projecting all his crap onto me???
Now I get myself back to the original title of thread when I start really thinking about all this! Why is he doing this???? Who in their right mind decides 14 years into a R that they were never able to act the way they wanted to, never said anything to their spouse about it & now holds their spouse responsible & spews off all this hatred making me feel like I am SATAN?
I am trying to think outside the box, but I need HELP!!!
I am trying to think outside the box, but I need HELP!!!
This isn't about you hating your husband. What does Hopeful want?
Hey Hope,
Since you addressed Forrest, I'll leave that for him.
STOP......Stop and breathe. you will have days were YOU will hit bottom, but sometimes, the things we think are bad are actually good things.
Kind of like when our computers lock up and we re-boot and start again.
You NEED to re-boot right now. And it is Okay to do that.
Sometimes it is always the darkest right before the dawn.....
No matter what happens in the future, YOU will survive.
A lot of people pulling for YOU........
First thing to do: STOP TALKING ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP!!!!
There is no other starting place.
Second thing: STOP FIGHTING WITH HIM ABOUT EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING. This is an absolute must. You are NOT going to argue him into seeing things your way, you just aren't.
Things to think about: Your H is more likely to be swayed dand influenced by a total stranger right now vs. you. So stop. Stop trying to change him.
YOU change first. YOU.YOU.YOU.YOU.YOU.YOU.
You can change you. YOU CAN NOT CHANGE HIM. So why bother?
Stop the fighting. Stop getting worked up over crap he does and says. Ignore it. Start the change in you there. PROMISE you, there will be not one fight this weekend. Then Sunday night, promise yourself, not one fight until Wednesday and so forth....unless he punches you or someone else....let it all go. Just try it. See where it takes you.
I don't understand why you assume I am doing any of these things? I have not spoken with him outside of MC about anything related to R in over 3 months. I NEVER fight with him. Ever. I don't have to say I won't fight until Sunday or Wed. I haven't had a fight with him since the beginning of March. I don't think I have said anything that should lead you to believe this. Yes, I get worked up over crap he says every once in awhile & I use this board to vent.
I do appreciate your other advice, but just don't understand this.
"Forrest! My head is spinning. I need straight answers."
OK.
"I get that I need to show with actions the changes."
You need to show with actions that the changes are lasting.
You do this simply by changing. Maybe you don't know where you will change.. but it is a process and if you really put "yourself" into it.. it will happen.
"I need to continue moving forward & not looking back."
You will always look back. You need to look back with a "clear" mind.
"I don't know how I can lead this stitch to a better place w/o sacrificing myself."
This is where you "Re-Think" things. If you find yourself going the wrong way.. life will clue you in. Again a big part of this is getting the "big picture". You will still get things wrong. The hope is you recover quicker.
"This was H's words about himself"
In the big picture.. he is trying to find his-self. Just like you. If you can "see" that.. then you can act correctly.
"Here's the hard part...H LIKED the qualities in me when we met that he DOESN'T like now."
As we grow up.. we find the things we liked.. can be overwhelming at times. Lets take money as an example. We all like that. But if you look around at people that have lots of money.. are they really happy? How many stories are there that involve someone winning the lottery.. and 10-15 years down the road.. wishing they had never won.
I like music. All kinds. Cause they tell stories. To a point it shows that the artists go thru the same things that me and you go thru. Now most artists don't write their own songs. They have writers. But they (artists) do pick things that hit close to home.
So what can we learn from that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYR2Z1MDy...=PL&index=1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0NVIroAyP4"Here's the hard part...H LIKED the qualities in me when we met that he DOESN'T like now. He liked that fact that I was brutally honest, he liked that I didn't pull any punches, he liked that I was a strong, assertive woman."
And you thought it was the looks. We (men) all want a strong woman. But we don't want you to be.. too strong.
"I think I have relaxed on all that stuff over the years and have been told the same thing by many people I am close with even before this happened. I have had H's mother tell me this past Xmas - you have become so friendly over the years. I have had other friends say - you have really changed and grown in your faith over the years, you used to be way more "I don't care what anybody thinks, I'm going to say what I feel" & now you have really toned things down as you've matured."
What you will find is that most likely you have softened.. to the outside world. But not so much to the world you hold close. I say this simply because that is what I have learned from all this. We tend to project onto those that are close.. cause they should know us. They should have hard skin. It begins to wear on them. That is why they blame us.
"Who in their "right" mind decides 14 years into a R that they were never able to act the way they wanted to, never said anything to their spouse about it & now holds their spouse responsible & spews off all this hatred making me feel like I am SATAN?"
Well.. to be honest.. you have to define the word "right". I "" it in your statement so it would be clear. When things "fail" who will you blame? The ones closest to you... or the guy standing at the corner?
"I am trying to think outside the box, but I need HELP!!!"
We all need HELP!!!
We want the "answer". I can't give you that. I can distract you and hope you gain something from it.
#1.. Find things that pull your mind out of this situation.
#2.. Only have R conversations that he starts (Even in MC). When you talk make sure that you respond only with "you" references.
Ex....
Him: You don't understand me.. you are always fighting me.
You: I want to understand. I get mixed messages and it is hard for me to understand you.
#3.. Don't worry so much about screwing up. It will happen.
#4.. Put a smile on your face.. even if its fake.
Then start back at #1
That is the 4 points of your box.
He will engage you.. he will make you think you screwed up.
To a point you can post some possible things you may run into and I will do my best to answer them.
When/if he leaves.. things change and we need to re-think.
HVA, other than the last session....do you like your MC? I just can't get over the MC telling your H to turn to you and say that....????
If you are not fighting with him then that is great.
What are you doing for you?
How are the kids holding up or are they in the dark?
If I'm doing the math correctly, you've been together since before either of you were legal to drink. That's pretty amazing.
What is his demeanor around you?
How many people know what is going on? One of the things I'm fighting now is that my H ran his mouth a wee bit too much. I think he's struggling with that now and wishes he hadn't.
I do like MC, but don't know if she is addressing things the way someone with the severity of his marital issues are. I also think he may be bringing problems that he had from childhood into the M & have to wonder if IC is something he needs. Maybe he needs to work through some of these issues BEFORE he can work on us (if he ever can). His mother has been married & divorced 4 times. She is a narcissist - EVERYTHING revolves around her & how great she is. She's always given H guilt trips & expects him to "fill in" where a husband should since she is single. She's the type of person that cuts you right out of her life if she has a problem with you. She hadn't spoken to her own mother in so long (so neither did H), that when her mom died & she called H, he got off the phone & said - My mom's mom just died. I said - you mean your GRANDMA? She treated him as a surrogate H & always implied it was "them against the world". He was also labeled as "just a good kid who never gave her problems". I have to wonder if he didn't develop a facade early on that was never really him in order to cope. He's always been the laid back, optimistic guy. People that know his mom & would meet him would always say - I can't believe SHE raised someone as nice as him. Now I'm wondering how that really did affect him.
Not to mention his father. He has not seen or spoken to his dad since he was 14 yrs old. I found out from his dad's next wife (they are now divorced) that when they were married, he used to try to see H & his mom would never let him. If I ever asked H about his dad, he would always tell me that he "just didn't care about him". Although when our son was born, H's dad sent a gift to the baby shower with 2nd wife & when H found out he was ENRAGED & wanted it returned IMMEDIATELY. So there is deep-rooted anger there.
I don't know if the "ghosts of his past" are now catching up w/him & he is blaming it all on me? I know I'm not perfect & am making the changes I think will benefit me either way.
For me, I am trying to reconnect with people that I have not had the energy to keep up with due to all of this. I am working out w/a trainer 3 days/week. I am actively involved in my church & am starting to do volunteer work with senior citizens.
The kids are in the dark. Yes, we have been together since I was 21 & he was 19. I always felt like we grew up together. We built the life we have TOGETHER. We met at college & were very good friends that knew everything about each other before we even started dating. We had the same circle of friends.
His demeanor around me is somewhat guarded. He talks less and less about his outside life so it is getting to the point that I don't even know what to talk to him about anymore. He cuts me out more & more each day.
Even though H gives off the laid back impression, he is extremely private. I don't know who he is talking to about anything. My friends & family know the situation. Most of my friends that know are out of state, either old friends from HS or college.
One of the things I'm fighting now is that my H ran his mouth a wee bit too much. I think he's struggling with that now and wishes he hadn't.
That is why it is so important to come here to vent. If that was YOU talking too much, it would make the guilt even worse for the WAS.
Hope, YOU can do this....
Where at in PW county ?
You on now ?
mach - what do you say to all the childhood baggage? Does that even matter? g-ville, near border of loudoun.
LOL....Small world.
SW Staff......Bout 30 mins ?
I think you SHOULD be concerned with that...
But for now, I think you should be more focused on you.....
This is a marathon.....not a sprint.....K ?
mach - what do you say to all the childhood baggage? Does that even matter? g-ville, near border of loudoun.
Hi Hope,
With apollogies to you and Mach for butting in on your question to him, it's good to be able to recognize your H's baggage. It will help you to stay on a more even keel. You have recognized the issues he is likely dealing with- this is good. It will help you to be able to see that, not only are there issues that your H has to figure out for himself, but that...
There is no way for you to help him with his issues.
You seem to me to be someone who has already figured this out. I only mention it because there is quite the difference between knowing something in your head, and getting it through to your heart.
We all want to be there for our spouses- we want to help them because we love them. But sometimes that help has to come in the form of backing off, and letting them figure it all out for themselves.
You've got it through your head- how about through your heart?
I only ask because it's a slipery slope, and we can so easily fool ourselves into saying yes, when, looking back later, we see that it wasn't so.
So, if you have got it through to your heart, then you DO recognize that his path has to be travelled by him, and him alone.
So the only person you can work on is yourself.
It sounds like you're addressing that already. Keep up the good work.
You're not alone in this- we're here for you.
With apollogies to you and Mach for butting in on your question to him,
Yea sure, apologize to her for butting in , but not ONCE for drinking all my dam Sam Adams last week...
Geeeesh.......
I appreciate you chiming in - the more the merrier. It's so hard when I bring up the childhood stuff bc I don't want to make excuses for myself. It is VERY hard when you have someone who cannot recognize the issues are within himself.
I know that this path has to be traveled by him & him alone, but keep wondering if I could ask MC to refer him to IC. Maybe he would go if she told him she thought that was best.
Where in VA are you? I'm thinking I need to move out of this state - bad luck for marriages LOL
I appreciate you chiming in - the more the merrier. It's so hard when I bring up the childhood stuff bc I don't want to make excuses for myself.
Understandable, and a perfectly valid concern. As long as you are being as honest with yourself about this as possible, then you have nothing to worry about...yes?
It is VERY hard when you have someone who cannot recognize the issues are within himself.
I agree wholeheartedly. Very hard, frustrating, exasperating, maddening...you name it. But recognize those issues for himself, he must. And as much as we love our spouses and want to help however we feel we can, our "help" is unappreciated by them, and just serves to make the situation worse.
I know that this path has to be traveled by him & him alone, but keep wondering if I could ask MC to refer him to IC. Maybe he would go if she told him she thought that was best.
This is the perfect example of what I was speaking about in my last post, and I'm going to call you on it. If the MC feels the need to make that determination based on her professional opinion, she will. If you don't trust her to make the correct call without your coaching, then you need to find a more competant MC.
Have you really detatched...truly?
In your head AND your heart?
This is what I meant. It's so easy to fall down that slippery slope. So easy, in fact, that we don't even recognize we're doing it when it happens.
Ask yourself how you would look to your H if he discovered you were "colluding against him" with your MC. Maybe you don't see it that way, but I'm sure your previous experiences with trying to be logical with your H about ANYTHING will convince you that you will NEVER be able to un-ring that bell!
Not trying to be an @$$ here, but I just want you to be sure what you are dealing with. Most spouses in this type of scenario are looking for ANY excuse (valid or not) to quit the M.
Please don't give him that excuse through actions that could be interpreted by him as controling.
Where in VA are you? I'm thinking I need to move out of this state - bad luck for marriages LOL
Dulles Airport is a 10 minute cab ride for me.
Maybe this state isn't such bad luck for marriages. After all, you found this board, right? :-)
Have you really detatched...truly?
In your head AND your heart?
I guess I don't know what it means to truly detach. I still get disappointed when I don't see any progress. But I'm just kind of telling myself - who cares? why would I expect anything else? I have stopped living in fear. I haven't been worrying about things as much. Haven't been thinking about what if he files for divorce? I mean I do think about it some & then say - there's nothing I can do if he does & that is the end of the thought.
Scenario of weekend so far. MIL offers to have the kids sleep over on Friday - of course they were ecstatic. I call H on his way home from work to let him know. Told him I would be out for the evening. Went & got my nails done, my plans fell through so I came home by 6:30pm - he must have called someone on his way home & went straight out w/them bc he hadn't been to the house. My neighbor came over, sat on the deck & drank a few beers. Woke up at 1:30am when the dog barked bc H arrived home. Never told me where he went - never asked. Got up at 7:30 am came downstairs & watched tv together for 3 hrs, drinking coffee. There was some forced, awkward small talk.
Picked up the kids & all went to S7's baseball team cookout. Had a great time talking to all the other parents. Didn't hang out w/H. Went home, H did stuff around the house, I cleaned. Put the kids to bed & went to neighbor's graduation party (alone). Got a call from a friend, went up to local bar to meet for 2 drinks. Ran by the gas station on the way home & got hit on by a pretty darn attractive guy ten years younger than me. Was a nice ego boost. Made me think it would be easier to start over (but just for a second!)
Got up went to church (alone). Came home, took kids to the pool, purposely stayed until H would have left to go to his baseball game. Getting ready to go to our church potluck w/kids.
I just feel like our R has dwindled to nothing. There isn't even anything to talk about anymore. H seems to continue to pull away emotionally. I guess I don't worry about it & continue on being the best me I can & living my life & being a great mom. Coaching call w/Laurie tomorrow morning.
What you will find is that most likely you have softened.. to the outside world. But not so much to the world you hold close. I say this simply because that is what I have learned from all this. We tend to project onto those that are close.. cause they should know us. They should have hard skin. It begins to wear on them. That is why they blame us.
I can see this - I know I was probably harder on him bc he was closest to me.
Thanks for all the good advice. If you read post to Jimbo, it gives some details of this weekend. Trying to GAL. Trying to detach.
BTW - good music choices! I get it.
"If you read post to Jimbo, it gives some details of this weekend. Trying to GAL. Trying to detach."
"I guess I don't know what it means to truly detach."
Again a big part of this is "control".
"I still get disappointed when I don't see any progress."
This is a example of the "control"
"I still get disappointed when I don't see any progress."
Cause you are not in "control".
"But I'm just kind of telling myself - who cares?"
You do.
"why would I expect anything else?"
Cause to a point.. you are looking back on times you had "control".
"I have stopped living in fear."
To a point.. yes. Yet the general idea is to not "fear" what is coming. You should be prepared for what is coming.
"I haven't been worrying about things as much."
This will most likely change.
"Haven't been thinking about what if he files for divorce?"
But the point would be.. what if you had the papers right now?
"I mean I do think about it some & then say - there's nothing I can do if he does & that is the end of the thought. "
Again to a point.. yes. You are too focused on what may happen. I want you to be prepared for what will happen.
"I just feel like our R has dwindled to nothing."
So now you share something in common with him.
"There isn't even anything to talk about anymore."
see the above comment.
"I guess I don't worry about it & continue on being the best me I can & living my life & being a great mom. Coaching call w/Laurie tomorrow morning."
I expect a full detail of "Living with Laurie".
You are on the cusp of learning something. You will have to tell me what it is.
I know I seem "better than thou". That is not my intention. My goal is.. again.. to make you think. I want to see you write it out. I want to see you get "Emotional" with me. So far so good.
I am just a simple guy that has worn your shoes. And most likely if you talk straight to me.. I can help a little.
Think "inside" the box that I gave you.
Watch what is going on around you.
Don't get "run over".
Now...
"BTW - good music choices! I get it."
Thank You.
But I'm just kind of telling myself - who cares?"
You do.
Is the goal to get myself to the point where I do get a divorce bc I don't give a rat's @$$ about H either?
To a point.. yes. Yet the general idea is to not "fear" what is coming. You should be prepared for what is coming.
Do you mean emotionally? How do I "prepare"?
This will most likely change.
Why? What do you mean?
"I just feel like our R has dwindled to nothing."
So now you share something in common with him.
"There isn't even anything to talk about anymore."
see the above comment.
Do you mean this to be a good thing?
Hopeful--your situation is tough. Much like everyone here, but I think you are doing great. You are doing things for you and for the kids....it's hard but yet wonderful at the same time.
I got hit on too and I had the EXACT same reaction! Not too shabby, even after children!
When you feel like things have dwindled, you need to come up with things to talk to him about. What are the stupid things you talk to your girlfriends with? What do you talk to him about? What exactly is "small talk" subject matter? I get my H to talk about things he loves....then after a while he'll ask me about what I love and my day, etc. It's taken a while to get that down, but it goes pretty well now.
And I don't think you should ever get to a point where you don't care whether you divorce or not. I say, keep fighting.
I went to Va Tech...where did you go?
yeah I'll have to figure out some topics for conversation. I actually met h in college in wpb, fl - he was from VA I was from Chicago although I had lived in Woodbridge, VA until I was 11 so I was somewhat familiar with the area. I used to play in the infastructure of Potomac mills mall!
Holy Moly....Potomac Mills Mall! It's amazing to me....that mall is the number one tourist attraction to that area! Not the White House, not the Washington or Lincoln Memorials, not the museums.... a mile long mall! Gotta love America.
I think you are doing great. It's hard, all of it. I've only recently allowed myself to think of life without H. And I've made the decision to come back up your way as the D becomes official or I find a new job back home.
I think I need to get out of here for a while. Let my head and heart clear out, let the dust settle. We both have high profile jobs here and it's going to be a bit of a scandal when the word gets out we're divorcing.
I was feeling guilty about going home with my son, but I figure if I'm a neurotic mess, then I'm no good to anyone.
I plan on going home for a about a year or so, however long it takes to really grab onto the old cliche, out of sight, out of mind....then coming back around the time S really wants to get into sports and such.
But you are on a good track esp. as it benefits you. Stay there.
Hey Hope,
Just checkin on you.
How was your session ?
So, you're familiar with Rt 610 ?
Yep - I know exactly where Rt. 610 is! Thanks for checking on me. It motivated me to give an update on the coaching call I had w/Laurie yesterday. We discussed the MC session which took place 6/9:
We chat a bit & mc asks if I said anything in the past 2 wks that has offended him. He said no. Mc says how did that feel? H says I didn't really notice bc I've disconnected. Nothing has changed with regard to my feelings for her. Mc asked h to look me in the eye & say that. Looks at me & says my feelings just aren't there for you, sorry.
At the end I say I would like to ask you something. When you said you weren't feeling anything for me, do u want to? Are you trying to? H says to b honest, no.
Laurie said she doesn't know anyone else in this scenario that would have said anything different. If he would have said yes to even wanting to have feelings for me, me & MC would have jumped all over that glimmer of hope & he's not ready to commit to that yet.
I say then why are we here? H says bc I didn't want to leave any stone unturned & I don't think I have.
Laurie said this was my glimmer of hope.
1. mc asks if I said anything in the past 2 wks that has offended him. He said no.
2. I said my dream is still that our m will survive & that our kids will have a family. In the meantime I am becoming the best me I can be for wherever this life takes me. I realize I am the only one that can make me happy.
H says she finally gets it - she's a strong person & no matter how things end up, we will all survive. I say survive implies just getting by. And I'm not okay with that.
Laurie said even though H was not being positive #1, he was AT LEAST still acknowledging changes which is a good thing. #2 - she said as much as I don't care for H's interpretation of what I said, he is seeing something different. I have taken even more guilt & pressure off of him by being strong & showing him I can make it on my own.
I said well even with you being more assertive, you still don't have any complaints about me so I think our worlds can coexist.
Laurie said it would have been better to say something like - I realize we have only had around 2 good weeks together where I haven't done anything that's bothered you & that's not much time to have your feelings turn around. I wouldn't expect them to. I just want to continue on & see if we can get to a point where living in the house together is enjoyable. She said I was showing him that I had hope in my last statement & he does not want me to have hope yet.
Jump ahead to 6/12 - now just to remind everyone the PREVIOUS week, H had been communicating with me quite frequently about his plans.
he must have called someone on his way home & went straight out w/them bc he hadn't been to the house. My neighbor came over, sat on the deck & drank a few beers. Woke up at 1:30am when the dog barked bc H arrived home. Never told me where he went - never asked.
Laurie's theory was that H did this to try to take my hope away again since I'd expressed some at MC.
Hi Hope- How are you doing? Hanging in there OK?
Have you really detatched...truly?
In your head AND your heart?
I guess I don't know what it means to truly detach. I still get disappointed when I don't see any progress. But I'm just kind of telling myself - who cares? why would I expect anything else? I have stopped living in fear. I haven't been worrying about things as much. Haven't been thinking about what if he files for divorce? I mean I do think about it some & then say - there's nothing I can do if he does & that is the end of the thought.
Truly detaching means recognizing that, since there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can do for your H in helping him on his journey, you need to back off and let him have the "control", as Forrest puts it. If you don't, you will only drive him further away.
This whole giving over of "control" can make us feel sub-human. We give it- they take it, and without a moment's hesitation. We become selfless and in return, we are rewarded with selfishness from them. It's not fair. AT ALL! But it
is necessary. And it's precisely why we need to focus on ourselves right now. Because that is the only thing in life that we actually do have any real control over. Since they won't (CAN'T!) be there for us right now, we need to be there for ourselves. I can't stress how important that is to your well being.
It's only natural to feel disappointment when you see absolutely NO progress. I know how you feel. It's hard for me to buoy myself up in my sitch, when, for the past year and a half, she has, for all intents and purposes, ditched me. Moved out of the house...doesn't call...only emails when she needs something from the house, and even then only spews about moving forward with the D. Very depressing stuff. But my point is that this is not a sprint, Hope. THIS IS A MARATHON, and they have to go through this. And so do we.
You can't fool me. I know you care. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here. And your stoic attitude is admirable, but don't use it to try to hide from the pain and avoid your feelings! If you suppress those feelings now, they will only explode later...and most likely in your H's presence, which we all know won't help the sitch at all!
Don't hide from them. Honor yourself by honoring your emotions, but do it in private. And vent here, too.
I just feel like our R has dwindled to nothing. There isn't even anything to talk about anymore. H seems to continue to pull away emotionally. I guess I don't worry about it & continue on being the best me I can & living my life & being a great mom. Coaching call w/Laurie tomorrow morning.
I probably don't have to tell you- this is part of the process. The spouses know something is wrong, but they don't know what. They're so busy with trying to figure out what it is for themselves and avoiding their own issues that they don't (CAN'T!) contribute to the R anymore. Don't let this phase you- it's not you.
Good info on the session.
I see a lot of things that you are doing right for you. Things that you were not capable of doing previously.
They do try to remove ALL hope from us.
Keep doing what is working and remember, not everything is as it appears...
Are you on 610 much ?
Yep - I know exactly where Rt. 610 is! Thanks for checking on me. It motivated me to give an update on the coaching call I had w/Laurie yesterday. We discussed the MC session which took place 6/9:
We chat a bit & mc asks if I said anything in the past 2 wks that has offended him. He said no. Mc says how did that feel? H says I didn't really notice bc I've disconnected. Nothing has changed with regard to my feelings for her. Mc asked h to look me in the eye & say that. Looks at me & says my feelings just aren't there for you, sorry.
At the end I say I would like to ask you something. When you said you weren't feeling anything for me, do u want to? Are you trying to? H says to b honest, no.
Laurie said she doesn't know anyone else in this scenario that would have said anything different. If he would have said yes to even wanting to have feelings for me, me & MC would have jumped all over that glimmer of hope & he's not ready to commit to that yet.
I say then why are we here? H says bc I didn't want to leave any stone unturned & I don't think I have.
Laurie said this was my glimmer of hope.
1. mc asks if I said anything in the past 2 wks that has offended him. He said no.
2. I said my dream is still that our m will survive & that our kids will have a family. In the meantime I am becoming the best me I can be for wherever this life takes me. I realize I am the only one that can make me happy.
H says she finally gets it - she's a strong person & no matter how things end up, we will all survive. I say survive implies just getting by. And I'm not okay with that.
Laurie said even though H was not being positive #1, he was AT LEAST still acknowledging changes which is a good thing. #2 - she said as much as I don't care for H's interpretation of what I said, he is seeing something different. I have taken even more guilt & pressure off of him by being strong & showing him I can make it on my own.
I said well even with you being more assertive, you still don't have any complaints about me so I think our worlds can coexist.
Laurie said it would have been better to say something like - I realize we have only had around 2 good weeks together where I haven't done anything that's bothered you & that's not much time to have your feelings turn around. I wouldn't expect them to. I just want to continue on & see if we can get to a point where living in the house together is enjoyable. She said I was showing him that I had hope in my last statement & he does not want me to have hope yet.
Jump ahead to 6/12 - now just to remind everyone the PREVIOUS week, H had been communicating with me quite frequently about his plans.
he must have called someone on his way home & went straight out w/them bc he hadn't been to the house. My neighbor came over, sat on the deck & drank a few beers. Woke up at 1:30am when the dog barked bc H arrived home. Never told me where he went - never asked.
Laurie's theory was that H did this to try to take my hope away again since I'd expressed some at MC.
Don't buy into his blahblahblah. Like Laurie said, he doesn't want to give away his control...
I'm really not down that way too often lately. I'm at the opposite end of the county so I am more likely to be in the area of route 15, 29, 66, 234, etc.
Well met an old friend for Happy Hour Monday night. It was kind of depressing bc we were getting hit on by old biker guys. I just kept thinking is this my new destiny? To go back into this world, yuck - that is why I got married, to settle down. I guess it was better than being ignored (which is how I feel in my own home)!
Yesterday H had a bball game at 7:30pm, so he came home from work, changed & headed back out the door. We'll see what today brings...
Hope,
We have ALL had those thoughts. And except for the old biker guy thing, I've been where you are.
Just keep moving forward with you and things will get better.
There will come a day when you look back on this time and actually be thankful for it. I know that is hard to grasp right now, but it will happen for you.
Whatever happens in your marriage, YOU will survive.
What area do you work in ?
Well met an old friend for Happy Hour Monday night. It was kind of depressing bc we were getting hit on by old biker guys. I just kept thinking is this my new destiny? To go back into this world, yuck - that is why I got married, to settle down. I guess it was better than being ignored (which is how I feel in my own home)!
Hey, I was secretly flattered that my friends and I were getting hit on by a bunch of drunks at a Perkins a few weeks ago
Two of us were obviously pregnant.
I'm not big on the idea of going back into that world either. I was telling a friend last night that this whole process reminds me of beginning a relationship - how you're never sure what the next move is and who should make it. Not knowing what should you say and what shouldn't you say to the person that you've been sharing your most intimate feelings with for a decade?
I got it. We can start an online dating service that is exclusive to DB site!!! Ha!!!
Seriously, I, too, have had thoughts about having to get back into the dating pool. Not something I want to think about right now, but I am slowly realizing it will be ok. If W goes thru with her plans, will take some time off, then look at my options.
Hnag in there.
Hopeful--I COMPLETELY agree. Old biker guys are not my idea of heaven on Earth. I have a girlfriend also now divorcing. She and her H have been in limboland for more than a year now and she's a lot further along in getting out and starting over. She's got a great outlook and is actually looking forward to dating again and having those high school-like feelings again with someone. But I'm with you....yuck. I don't want to do that crap again for any amount in the world.
My office is in western PW County
That is so true. I always say the biggest difference for me is that when you first started dating someone at least you knew they somewhat "liked" you. Now I'm trying to get someone to fall in love with me again who is doing everything they can to pull away!
I know I'm going to get crap for this one bc this whole process is not about what "I" want. BUT...I don't WANT those HS first time feelings for someone else, I WANT them for the father of my children, the man I ALREADY love! Ok gotta stop feeling sorry for myself - and I know you are talking about your friend's attitude and not telling me I should feel that way.
I do have to say the weird thing is...I can feel in the pits all day about this, but God is good. As soon as H pulls in the driveway, I am able to buck right up & be the most pleasant person in the world. And I actually feel happy. This is a total oxymoron, but it's pretty sad that H still makes me feel happy to just be around him.
Ugh - he's getting worse. He comes home tonight & will not even make eye contact with me! WTH! He will barely even talk to me...and when my kids were taking up the cushions on the couch that were further away from him which caused me to have to sit on the cushion next to him...the next time he got up, he moved pillows down at the other end of the couch to be further away from me! I am so sick of Dbing & getting treated like a piece of garbage.
I'm starting to wish he would just leave...then I could relax in my own home. Anyone have any suggestions on breaking the ice with him? Should I try to talk to him more or just leave him be? Then what do I do? Go upstairs into my room to watch tv in the evenings? That would be blatantly obvious that I would be trying to get away from him...which would probably cause him to think I was moping...
"Is the goal to get myself to the point where I do get a divorce bc I don't give a rat's @$$ about H either?"
I liked the way you asked that question. This part really stood out.. "Is the goal to get myself..."
To answer the question.. No.
We tend to "fight" ourselves alot in these situations.
"Do you mean emotionally? How do I "prepare"?"
Yes. Well "prepare" has many definitions. Running, Walking, Sleeping, Eating, Constructive Deconstruction. I can't define "prepare" for you. You have to define it. Again you need something to pull your mind out of this situation. Trust me.. it will start slow. But you will find "something" if you really look. You will know it when you find it. Are you looking?
"Why? What do you mean?"
If you follow the normal pattern.. you will "waffle" all over the place with your "emotions". It's normal until you get a handle on you.
"Do you mean this to be a good thing?"
To a point.. yes. How can two people that have completely different "stimuli" come to the same thoughts together? For the sake of argument.. if he can bring you to the same place he is.. can you "change" things?
"I say then why are we here? H says bc I didn't want to leave any stone unturned & I don't think I have."
Laurie was right. I used to use the "random smacking" idea. If I walked up to you on the street and smacked you across the face.. what would you do? No matter what you answer it will fall within the idea of fight or flight. If I need to explain fight or flight let me know. This "stitch" is not much different than a "random smacking". What happens if you see me about to smack you? Do things change?
Laurie is trying to get him to "see" the consequences of his choices. To a point I think that can be good. Laurie will be a good mentor for you. Your H may not think much of her.
"I always say the biggest difference for me is that when you first started dating someone at least you knew they somewhat "liked" you."
My wife hated me when we first met. Thought I was a sarcastic SOB. The bomb kinda felt the same way. To a point you could say he still "likes" you. He is still there.
"I do have to say the weird thing is...I can feel in the pits all day about this, but God is good. As soon as H pulls in the driveway, I am able to buck right up & be the most pleasant person in the world. And I actually feel happy. This is a total oxymoron, but it's pretty sad that H still makes me feel happy to just be around him."
Keep doing this.
"'m starting to wish he would just leave...then I could relax in my own home."
Sometimes.. the things we think that will save us.. just won't.
"Anyone have any suggestions on breaking the ice with him?"
Don't. Let him come to you. Sounds silly doesn't it?
"Should I try to talk to him more or just leave him be?"
Talk about random stuff. I had a talk with my wife today about me swimming at the pool in my underwear and making her mad (It was a dream she had). Then there was a elephant that got involved and it made no sense after that. We laughed about it.
"That would be blatantly obvious that I would be trying to get away from him...which would probably cause him to think I was moping..."
So what you are saying is he can "see" when you are faking it? What if you went upstairs cause you had a cool show you wanted to watch? He was blatantly trying to get away from you... but you stayed.
The biggest + you have is he is still there.. and going to MC.
If you hold a gun to my head.. the first thing I am gonna try and do it GTFO. Once I am out.. I am never coming back. I am gonna say things that get me closer to the door.
Think. What can you do to become a more "attractive" gunman?
I am totally with you on that. I have someone I love AND he's the father of my child. Done deal for me. No one else will ever be able to say that except for him....."I'm the father of her child". That's a huge deal for me.....him being my S's father just makes me love him more.
I'm not sure how my girlfriend got to the place where she is ready to date again, but I just don't see myself getting there any time soon....I know probably again, I'll want to date and fall in love and all the rest of it, but now, not so much.
I'm with you Hopeful.
If you look at the 180 section of DBing it says to do exactly that, a 180. If you normally start the conversations, stop. Be nice and answer his questions, but stop starting it. If you normally try to hang out at home, stop, smile when he gets there and happily announce you have something to do and leave the room, go do something that makes you relax, ESP in your own home.
You're right, don't let him treat you like you have a skin disease. Him moving to the other end.....that's childish.
A good buddy I found here explained something to me....sometimes they act like little kids having a silent fit because you told them no and now they want to pout. If one of your kids was acting this way, seemingly trying to hurt your feelings...what would you do? how would you handle it?
Yes. Well "prepare" has many definitions. Running, Walking, Sleeping, Eating, Constructive Deconstruction. I can't define "prepare" for you. You have to define it. Again you need something to pull your mind out of this situation. Trust me.. it will start slow. But you will find "something" if you really look. You will know it when you find it. Are you looking?
Okay - I just wasn't sure if you were meaning "legally" prepare. Although I have done my research here too.
My wife hated me when we first met. Thought I was a sarcastic SOB. The bomb kinda felt the same way. To a point you could say he still "likes" you. He is still there.
We were the opposite, H liked me, I was not attracted to him. When we first started MC in Feb , H said - I like her. Then we had a cruise planned for March, H still wanted to go, said he thought we'd have fun - we still did things together at this point. Although I wasn't DBing & constantly talking about R. By the time I started DBing in April, he had pulled away from me completely. He'll still do things such as call to ask if I want something while he is out. If he is getting a cup of coffee, he will get me one. Things like that.
"Anyone have any suggestions on breaking the ice with him?"
Don't. Let him come to you. Sounds silly doesn't it?
"Should I try to talk to him more or just leave him be?"
Talk about random stuff. I had a talk with my wife today about me swimming at the pool in my underwear and making her mad (It was a dream she had). Then there was a elephant that got involved and it made no sense after that. We laughed about it.
I am confused here. You told me to let him break the ice, but for me to talk about random stuff??? Which do I do? Or do you mean, once he initiates conversation, to feel free to talk about random stuff.
The biggest + you have is he is still there.. and going to MC.
Do you think MC is beneficial? I think this week has been a horrible week SINCE MC. I feel like we have regressed. Up until we went, I thought things were OK. Maybe I just have to learn how to respond in the MC session better.
"Okay - I just wasn't sure if you were meaning "legally" prepare. Although I have done my research here too."
Good for you.
"He'll still do things such as call to ask if I want something while he is out. If he is getting a cup of coffee, he will get me one. Things like that."
Don't place a tremendous amount of value in this. I say that but I want you to look at why he is doing those things. I am of the opinion that the WAS did not wake up one morning with the intention of hurting you the way they do. At the very least he is being "friendly". People will show you how to move closer to them.. if you are paying attention.
"once he initiates conversation, to feel free to talk about random stuff."
Yup. If you want to just talk.. cause you are bored or something.. feel free to break the ice. There is no "hard rule" that you can't talk to him. Just don't let the situation (talk) digress into a R talk. Again using your perception of things and using words that don't point the finger will help a lot here.
"Do you think MC is beneficial?"
It can be. It can also be more of the same for the WAS. If you want my personal opinion from what you are telling me I think Laurie may be a better mentor for you than a MC for the both of you. Again.. that is a opinion of a random guy sitting on the other side of a keyboard.
"Maybe I just have to learn how to respond in the MC session better."
So you should "prepare" yourself when you "see" something coming?
You are doing fine.. just keep "looking" at what is going on around you. Life has a funny way of pointing out things you are missing.
I hate your marriage counselor. I hate that the MC made him look at you and repeat that stupid crap....I just don't see how the hell that was supposed to be helpful. Does your MC understand you would like to save the relationship to be able to turn it into a new more solid marriage?
And I agree, let him start conversations and be ready with the funny light random stuff. What kinds of crap did you talk about when you first met? That's the vein you should be thinking in. I think it's great for us too, makes it all lighter....if that makes sense.
"I hate that the MC made him look at you and repeat that stupid crap....I just don't see how the hell that was supposed to be helpful."
To me it kinda goes back to the whole thought of making your own decisions... for you. The idea here is that he is saying he feels nothing and is communicating that clearly. This serves the purpose of helping him "face" his decision. Kinda like Stewart Smally from SNL. He always looked in the mirror and spoke his daily words of affirmation. WAS suffer from the same issues that LBS suffer from. The things that we think will make it "all better" don't usually help us at all. What does him leaving solve other than the immediate issue of him being "unhappy"? He will still a father. He will still have to provide for his family. He will still have responsibility's. He will still have to interact with HVA.
Well, I have decided to go to MC one more time. If I have the handle on things like I think I do at this point, maybe things will be more positive. We had a really bad session about 6 weeks ago, then we had a good session, then we just had our last one which was bad. I think I get what may have gone wrong. If this one is bad, I will probably suggest giving it up.
The things that we think will make it "all better" don't usually help us at all. What does him leaving solve other than the immediate issue of him being "unhappy"? He will still a father. He will still have to provide for his family. He will still have responsibility's. He will still have to interact with HVA.
I can see your point with the Stewart Smally reference. And I totally agree that leaving will not make it all better.
I also have to tell you that I went back & read your thread. What a cliffhanger! I could never really find info on how you got your wife back. I felt like I was reading a novel, like when you moved out, I was screaming in my mind - no don't do it! Fortunately I knew there was a happy ending.
Good stuff. I hope this one is better. Or maybe you might just neee to switch MC? Switch to someone who understands that MAYBE divorce is not the answer....??? Not sure but I do know I'm going to be so mad for you again, if the MC pulls that stupid "Turn to her and say it...." crap.
I know. Thanks for your support on my thread. It's so helpful to have other people encouraging me through this. I will say that MC is 100% pro marriage. Don't know her motivation in saying to turn to me & say...Maybe she is trying to make him face some realities like FG said.
My only problem with switching MC's is H would probably think I was trying to control the situation again. I know it's an assumption on my part, but I could see him thinking - oh what, this MC hasn't been able to turn me around so now you want to hop to another one to get me to see things YOUR way???
Very true, very possible. If you are sure she's pro marriage then stay with her. Could you possibly see her alone and let her know you thought that crap sucked? That basically you want to cut back on his opportunities to say such crap? Or maybe find out what the heck she was trying to accomplish with that?
I think you are doing great. You aren't falling apart or groveling or making a fool of yourself which is very hard in times like this.
Stay strong
Hey Hope,
I was thinking about this.....Is there any way you can have an independant session with her?
I really dislike that she did that too, and I question her motives about that.
I also agree about changing C. It could be viewed as controlling, but YOU need to understand her goals in making him voice that to you.
Another question. Back to the whole conversation thing...last night it was like PULLING TEETH to get anything out of him.
He's got a college bball game on, I say - So which of these teams do you like? He's says neither.
A couple of things I said I only got a grunt. So I stopped talking. I don't want to be annoying either. Should I just keep my mouth shut for awhile & go about my business? It sure does suck being completely shut out.
yes, stop talking to him unless absolutely necessary. matter of fact, go play with the kids, get on the phone with someone who does want to talk to you. (wish I could give you my number) go work on a 1000 piece puzzle or whatever it is you wish to do. matter of fact, it would be even better if you weren't even home when he gets there. take the kids to do something, get home half an hour after him. come in happy and glowing.
If you are already home when he gets there and you have something planned with the kids, invite him but make it VERY VERY clear you are going with or without him, so his answer is irrelevant to you, only to him. he says no. Great, go anyways.
Who watches a game when you don't like either team? LOL!!!!
here's a stupid joke to cheer you up....
Q: Where should a 500 pound alien go?
A: On a diet
I must agree with stillloveshim here. On every point. Nothing you try to do is going to magically pop him out of this, and anything you DO try is, more likely than not, going to backfire big time.
If HE doesn't even know what will make him happy, how the heck can YOU possibly figure it out for him?
You must take care of you, and leave him to him. I know it sucks, but that's the way this has to play out.
Glad we "met" today Jimbo.
yeah - that's what I'm thinking. I'm not really going to see him until Sat. night - so we'll see how he acts that night. Just to see if last night was an OFF night. Last night was the worst one yet. After that I go out of town for a week (so it will be easy to avoid him), then the week after that, my kids will be w/my parents so I won't have any responsibilities to hang around the house.
We will see!
Glad we "met" today Jimbo.
Likewise, SLH! I just wish my 2 widdle finners could've kept up with your mad typing skills!
Keep in touch!
yeah - that's what I'm thinking. I'm not really going to see him until Sat. night - so we'll see how he acts that night. Just to see if last night was an OFF night. Last night was the worst one yet. After that I go out of town for a week (so it will be easy to avoid him), then the week after that, my kids will be w/my parents so I won't have any responsibilities to hang around the house.
We will see!
Don't let his behavior rattle you, Hope- whatever it turns out to be. Take care of you, and stay strong.
We're here pulling for you!
Wow, Incredible. Went out GALing tonight w/a friend. Hadn't talked to her since November. Went to dinner - ended up telling her about my sitch. Confessed she was a WAW at one point in time. Took her over 8 months to come back. Explained her whole story & position to me. What are the odds!?
Journaling -
We'll call WAS "X" in this story. X said there was a sitch where a build up of things over about 6 months made her really resentful of her H. Finally it all culminated in an event that was the straw that broke the camel's back where she decided she was done. She felt like he was controlling & it was all about her having to take her control back.
Her H was mad & never DB'd to try to get her back. X says she looks back now & knows that all she could focus on were the bad things about her H. Said she can now say she blew everything way out of proportion & acted very childish. Said she felt numb & acted like she didn't care, but looks back now & realizes she was just really pi$$ed off. Said she wanted him to hurt as badly as she had. Said there was NOTHING anyone could have done or said to her at that point in her life that would have changed her mind regarding D. They went to MC & she thought she'd just go to blast her H.
She moved out & realized she would miss her girls when she didn't have them. Also realized all the financial ramifications of what she was doing. Said she watched an episode of Dr. Phil where he said for your kid's sake you have to "earn your way out of a marriage". Said she had to hit rock bottom in order to be able to come full circle & realize she had to "try" to make a go of the M.
Moved back home & slept in separate BR's for 6 months. Stopped going to MC & each night her & H would sit on the couch & have 15 minutes each w/no interruptions to air everything they felt. Finally in-laws came to visit & she had to move back into bed w/H. They made baby steps in getting closer to each other again.
Looks back & is mad that she wasted a year & half of her life doing this. Says she is a different person today. Used to be a door mat - I would have NEVER known that. She is a tell-it-like-it-is assertive person now. And I might add, a very cool lady.
The whole time she was telling me the story - I kept interrupting & saying you were a real B---H! She was like - wow now that I see the pain you're going through I'm starting to feel really bad for my H. Said to this day she has never apologized. I told her she better when she goes home! She told me her marriage has changed. Says it's a deeper love, where you have more respect for each other as people. You understand the other person better. She also said there were some things they never got back. Doing this took a piece of it away. Says there's a fraility there she never knew could exist before.
Moral of the story in my mind and oh, what a cliche! "If you love someone, set them free. If they come back, they are yours."
I purposely left out the next line for reasons of optimism. My interpretation of this goes back to me finally getting the idea of detachment. Doesn't mean you don't have to give a crap, actually it is more unconditional love than you can ever imagine. Letting someone be who they are...or who they want to become...and understanding that they have to make up their own mind about what they want.
She also said for me to continue to engage my H in occasional phone calls at work. Info on the kids, ask to pick something up on the way home from work, make him feel needed/wanted to try to build him back up. She also said sometimes when you talk to older people who have been married 50+ yrs, they'll say at certain points there was only one person holding up the M & right now it has to be me.
Just thought it was encouraging to see another example of a couple who was able to survive this...and there wasn't even any DBing. We should all have even better odds!
I think I'm finally getting it. Tell me if I've had my lightbulb moment & this is to Forrest Gump too! Which by the way, I was at my MIL's house today & they mentioned that movie & I thought - I'm friends with that guy on a message board!
Anywho...when you are REALLY & TRULY making your changes, you don't have to worry anymore about - did I do or say the right thing? You just KNOW you did. It's not about doing the right thing anymore "to see if your WAS responds" - you just do it because it feels right & you want to.
For example, for the past few months everytime H says - I'm going out with my friends. I would be biting my tongue & deep down I was mad. Tonight H said I'm going on my friend's boat next week & I said (and meant it) - that sounds like fun! you haven't been out on his boat since last summer, have you? H says no. I said well I bet you guys are going to have a great time. And I actually meant it!
And I don't care about his reaction. He could continue to reject me, and of course that's not what I want & it hurts, but I'm happy for him. I really am.
Tonight I was sitting on the couch with him thinking - yep, I'm over here on my side, going through my journey. And he's over there on the other side, going through his! And I'm happy!
Is this what you guys have been trying to get me to "get"? Please read post above. It's what made me have this revelation.
Hopeful in VA ~
I loved the story. I also need to keep the " If you love them set them free..." in my mind. Especially right now while H is out doing his thing.
MJ
And the other interesting thing for me was to figure out how to be happy through this...but when I see that I am changing, it makes me happy. When I am happy it is easier to "change". It's like the old saying what came first, the chicken or the egg.
Ooh Hopeful I like that analogy!
And I had been going with the "what goes around comes around" all of this time. OR " You reap what you sow"
I need to focus more on myself, and not so much on him and what he's doing. Focus, focus, focus...
MJ
Today is the day. I am marking it on my calendar that things can only go up! Okay so maybe I'm not THAT unrealistic. They will also go down, I know this, but there will be peaks & valleys on the upwards moving graph.
And the graph is NOT for H - it's for me
Wow I really have to change the title of this thread! Back to the old chicken & the egg analogy. That was wrong. Detachment comes first HAS to. Happiness comes after. True change first, true happiness after. Detachment = unconditional love.
Galatians 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness & self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Paul lists the fruits of the Spirit in a logical progression. The reason that joy follows love is that love governs joy. Anyone who lives a life full of love will be joyful. W/O love there can be no joy. Joy exists in, never out of, loving relationships.
ok so I just answered my own question.
Hopeful in VA ~
Do you know about the Rejoice Marriage Ministries website?
The couple who head up this site had marriage problems,( him with infidelity ) and got a divorce. She started treating him with unconditional love, and forgave him. He turned his life around, and they remarried two years later.
When I'm not here reading, I'm over there. I urge you to check it out if you are not familiar with it.
MJ
I think I'm finally getting it. Tell me if I've had my lightbulb moment & this is to Forrest Gump too! Which by the way, I was at my MIL's house today & they mentioned that movie & I thought - I'm friends with that guy on a message board!
Anywho...when you are REALLY & TRULY making your changes, you don't have to worry anymore about - did I do or say the right thing? You just KNOW you did. It's not about doing the right thing anymore "to see if your WAS responds" - you just do it because it feels right & you want to.
For example, for the past few months everytime H says - I'm going out with my friends. I would be biting my tongue & deep down I was mad. Tonight H said I'm going on my friend's boat next week & I said (and meant it) - that sounds like fun! you haven't been out on his boat since last summer, have you? H says no. I said well I bet you guys are going to have a great time. And I actually meant it!
And I don't care about his reaction. He could continue to reject me, and of course that's not what I want & it hurts, but I'm happy for him. I really am.
Tonight I was sitting on the couch with him thinking - yep, I'm over here on my side, going through my journey. And he's over there on the other side, going through his! And I'm happy!
Is this what you guys have been trying to get me to "get"? Please read post above. It's what made me have this revelation.
Since the R.E. at the top had my name on it, I am going to assume that you are asking me ?
That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I have used this analogy before here, but one more time would never hurt.
I view this as a two-for-one special at the grocery store. HE has a path that he needs to walk, but at the same time, YOU get to make that journey too. YOU get to find yourself at the same time. And at the end of this, whether or not you are still married will not matter to you, because you will be standing strong for your next relationship......and maybe, just maybe, that relationship will be with your present spouse.
One of the greatest gifts one can possibly give their partner is the freedom to find and be themselves. Unbeknownst to him, he is giving you that too.....
Great convo with your friend, but remember, there are NO timelines for this, everyone is different. Hers won't work for you. It takes as long as it takes.
To quote Forrest if I may.....DO WORK
BTW Forrest mutual friend J3B says Hi....
(Wiping tears ) I think our little girl is growing up....
Any good coffee shops out there in western PW ?
I'm always in search of that perfect cup of coffee, and would make that drive....
Dang....your up and at em early.
Dang....your up and at em early.
Some of us work....
..............others sleep in the truck.
What's up T ?
Hopeful,
I have a friend with a similiar story and another one with an even worse story....one that makes me want to keep fighting. (Though lately, I'm sort of over it and want to just move on! Don't listen to me.)
You sound fabulous! That's the most important thing here. You sound like you are getting a real grip on what it is YOU need to do for YOU and then everything else will fall into place.
proud of you!
Yes and others can work AND sleep in the truck. Yep, I'm THAT good.
I'm recovering, my kids ran me ragged, but we had an awesome day.
Well Good morning SLH,
Thank you for the Father's Day wishes!!
Yes and others can work AND sleep in the truck. Yep, I'm THAT good.
Translation=Boss is out of the office today ?
I'm recovering, my kids ran me ragged, but we had an awesome day.
Me too.....Loved every minute of it......
Isn't that the best. I couldn't have asked for a better day.
Nah...bossman is here, I'm just sneaky like that. ; )
Yes - that post was to you because you were the first person to really explain it to me. Or at least try to explain it, I think it does take a lightbulb moment, bc it's a FEELING.
I would love to do coffee & don't mind driving out of my area. I am actually on vacation this week, but one day next week would be good. Maybe we could find somewhere in the Woodbridge area. Let me know!
BTW - not putting too much into this, but when H dropped me off at the airport, he walked up to me & gave me a hug. He hasn't initiated any physical touch with me since Feb! Maybe even Jan.
I think I am actually exuding the changes at this point like you talked about. I don't have to run around saying look at my changes. They are just there! But I know I still need to DO WORK.
Wow I really have to change the title of this thread!
I think that is a great idea......something a little more positive.
Maybe even think about joining us over in MLC.
There is a peace that comes from true detaching...Inner peace that only YOU can know.
SLH.....Nice to meet you. Where is your thread ?
Maybe even think about joining us over in MLC.
That's the place to be...we have the most fun. Just to warn you though, you'll never be the same.
Hey there
sent you a message
Hope your father's day was awesome!
did you send me a private message? I don't see anything
Sorry about the confusion....I was telling Trapt I posted on his page.
How are you today?
Here's a stupid joke for you:
How did the farmer fix his jeans ?
With a cabbage patch !
"I also have to tell you that I went back & read your thread. What a cliffhanger! I could never really find info on how you got your wife back. I felt like I was reading a novel, like when you moved out, I was screaming in my mind - no don't do it! Fortunately I knew there was a happy ending."
I am just impressed you could still find my story. Last time I tried to search this place I had to use keywords and search limiters on Google. Part of my walk was removing myself from here (DB.com). I found that it kept me "in the moment". I just stopped posting. I think it was about 3 months or so. The "How" is what I write about now. For me a big part of it was "Distancing/Detaching" from the situation. I became very "matter of factish". I would not let things (Drama) that she was creating effect me. Once I understood that I could not change her view on things and stopped trying.. things changed. If she told me something was purple.. but it was clearly red.. I just said "Ok.. your right". To a point she had to decide on her own if she wanted to be with me. I am not the greatest things since sliced bread.. but I will assure you I was much better than the people she was choosing to spend time with. In the end she saw that.. on her own. Trust me.. I made my own messes. I screwed up alot. The odd thing is that even if I had posted exactly what happened I don't know that it would "help" others. I really think that you have to "get it" and apply "it" in your own way.
"Wow I really have to change the title of this thread!"
I would recommend that you don't. The mods are supposed to lock the threads and I know they have been a little slack.. but it will give you a reference point once they do. Just like life when they lock it and you move to another.. then make the change.
"Anywho...when you are REALLY & TRULY making your changes, you don't have to worry anymore about - did I do or say the right thing? You just KNOW you did. It's not about doing the right thing anymore "to see if your WAS responds" - you just do it because it feels right & you want to."
Now can you go back and read things now and "see" that this has been said many times.. many different ways? Why did you not "see" it?
"Is this what you guys have been trying to get me to "get"? Please read post above. It's what made me have this revelation."
Life has a way of cluing us in doesn't it? Did you really have to ask the first question.. or did you already know the answer?
"BTW Forrest mutual friend J3B says Hi...."
Tell Jack... Arghhh Matey!
Remember what you learn as you walk along here HVA. At the very least.. no matter what happens.. you will one day look back on this as one of the "best" experiences of your life. As long as you learn from it.. and Do Work.
Wow I really have to change the title of this thread!"
Okay thread title remains. Then the documentation of journey remains intact anyways.
Now can you go back and read things now and "see" that this has been said many times.. many different ways? Why did you not "see" it?
Bc you can't "see" it. I don't even know that I could properly explain it to anyone - including myself. Thank goodness I was able to do it when I did. I'm on vacation this week & before I left, I kept thinking - it's great that I'm going on vacation, but my problems will continue to follow me & that sucks. Now I'm completely free!
Life has a way of cluing us in doesn't it? Did you really have to ask the first question.. or did you already know the answer?
No - but I also wanted to let you all know that your hard work paid off. That I got it! Thank you.
The really interesting thing in everything I've gone through so far is that one event could not happen w/o another. Each step of the way has related to the last which related to the one before & so on. I remember back in March thinking at that point I had been equipped with everything I needed to make it on this path & now I look back & think it was hilarious that I thought that. Every single event was a building block for the next.
Journaling - just some random ideas for getting to the point of detachment...
Have fun!
This is part of my previous posts on joy/happiness. Fun is not easy to have during this transition, but it is necessary.
Fun is participatory.
Fun cannot be planned. It has to happen. To have fun happen to you, be a happening person.
You cannot fake fun. You're either having fun or you're not, and only you know the difference.
Play is essentially free exploration of the world. It's how children learn. The enemy of play is fear. When we are fearful, we stop experimenting & so we stop learning & growing.
I would have to say that the first step to getting to the detachment stage had to do with fear. I STOPPED living in fear...fear of the future - I could NOT MAKE MY SPOUSE see things MY way. Once I stopped living in fear, I was free to LEARN & GROW again & that is when I learned to DETACH
To quote my current favorite author Mike Mason in the book Practicing the Presence of People...
"When we're afraid to be fools, we end up being afraid to be anything. It becomes easier to just disappear, to fade into the woodwork. We get to thinking that righteousness means hiding our faults, when really the truth is just the opposite. Pride wants to look good, but humility has no fear of looking bad. People will see our faults anyway; like Paul, we should glory in our weaknesses. Then we'll be free to have fun.
I'd like to make a film of a hundred children at the point when they realize that it is not okay to do certain things in public. I fancy this is the moment when people lose touch with the best playmate they'll ever have, their own inner child.
Are you still friends with the little girl or boy inside? If not, you won't make friends with anyone else either. Other kids will come calling, but you won't be home.
Be home to the child you still are at heart. He or she is your ticket to having fun."
"I was trying to be free, but trying is lying."
Quote by Nelson Mandela "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented & fabulous? Actually, who are you NOT to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightening about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. AND AS WE LET OUR OWN LIGHT SHINE, WE UNCONSCIOUSLY GIVE OTHER PEOPLE PERMISSION TO DO THE SAME. AS WE ARE LIBERATED FROM OUR OWN FEAR, OUR PRESENCE AUTOMATICALLY LIBERATES OTHERS."
Hey
How's the time away goin ?
I have been thoroughly enjoying myself. There are actually long periods of time where I don't even think about my sitch. H has called twice since Sunday "to check on the kids" - although he hasn't "spoken" to them on the phone. Just asks me what they are up to.
Journaling again -
This trip could not have come at a better time. I SO needed to get back to my "roots". To get back to the real ME. I love Chicago. I love the people - midwesterners are just so friendly. I stopped by a bar by myself on Monday night & had a couple girls who I didn't even know invite me to sit by them.
I love the music here. I love driving my parent's car & blaring the radio, listening to great Chicago house music - I even love the way the DJ's mix music here. It's the stuff I grew up on. I've gotten to drive by my old HS & old stomping grounds. I've gotten to see friends (thanks to facebook) that I haven't seen in 15 years. I get to be w/my parents & grandmother who love me for me. I love the drivers here. They frickin know how to take turns at 4 way stop signs! I love the streets here - it's all a grid, north, south, east & west. So much easier to get around than in VA. I love Chicago accents - they are hilarious. I love that people call soda, pop. Love, love, love the food. Deep dish Chicago style pizza RULES. Italian beefs, chicago style hot dogs - it all rocks!
It's just fun to be able to appreciate everything. It's fun to be able to have fun again. To be ME!
Hey Hopeful...
WOW! Sounds like your having a fantastic time!
I was in Chicago in 2005 and just loved it!
I'm leaving tomorrow for three weeks in Georgia, and need to catch your enthusiasm. I'm excited to go, and leave this nightmare behind for a little while. But, at the same time, I'm somewhat down because of the nightmare at home. Does that make sense? I guess I just wish I was leaving under different circumstances at home. And my H missing me while I'm gone. (sigh)
MJ
Hey MJ,
Have you been able to detach yet? If you read through my recent threads, I just figured it out. The only way I can describe it is to start treating H like he's your son. How would you treat a child? You would love them unconditionally & realize they would have to experience life on their own. You can tell a teenager until you're blue in the face all the things YOU learned in your life while growing up...but they won't listen. They need to learn on their own.
Once you get to that point, you can start enjoying your life again. I felt the same way as you before I figured it out. I kept thinking - I should be happy about my trip but I'll still have the same issues on my mind while I'm away. I started thinking the best vacation for me may just be going to the hospital & being put into a coma for a week so I wouldn't have to think about my sitch! Now I can do my own thing & have fun again. Stop thinking of it as a nightmare. Think of it as a journey. You are one one - H is on one. Hopefully both roads lead to the same place, but if they don't, you will be okay - better than okay - you will have worked on yourself to be the best you possible!
Atta girl, Hope! Now you're gettin' it.
Sounds like you're having fun!
Hopeful in VA...
What an interesting way to look at it.
I may have just gained a son! lol
MJ
Funny, that is EXACTLY how I thought to look at my husband this week - like a child I love unconditionally but don't like his actions.
Hey MJ,
Have you been able to detach yet? If you read through my recent threads, I just figured it out. The only way I can describe it is to start treating H like he's your son. How would you treat a child? You would love them unconditionally & realize they would have to experience life on their own. You can tell a teenager until you're blue in the face all the things YOU learned in your life while growing up...but they won't listen. They need to learn on their own.
Once you get to that point, you can start enjoying your life again. I felt the same way as you before I figured it out. I kept thinking - I should be happy about my trip but I'll still have the same issues on my mind while I'm away. I started thinking the best vacation for me may just be going to the hospital & being put into a coma for a week so I wouldn't have to think about my sitch! Now I can do my own thing & have fun again. Stop thinking of it as a nightmare. Think of it as a journey. You are one one - H is on one. Hopefully both roads lead to the same place, but if they don't, you will be okay - better than okay - you will have worked on yourself to be the best you possible!
AHHHH crap! I already have to deal with teen angst from the real teen in my house!
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Mmmm... tap tap tap
I wonder when my teen will be getting home from work tonight. Maybe he's meeting his friends at the malt shop after work.
Mmmm... tap tap tap
Guess I won't count on him for dinner.
Mmmm... tap tap tap
MJ
Hey Hope, glad you are having a great time .....
Isn't true detachment great ?
There is a certain peace that comes from that.....
Knowing that no matter what.....YOU will be fine.
Time to reach your hand back now......LOL
Time to reach your hand back now......LOL
Why the "LOL"? Is it only natural that once I detach I start enjoying my freedom & get sick of the drama WAS creates? I think this is where I'm at now. H has called everyday on his way home from work - "to see how the kids are doing" - (although he never asks to talk to them). Yesterday he called & didn't leave a message. Normally I'm so happy he called. Now I'm just like - UGH, I don't want to deal with him. Although to keep the momentum going, I think I should be mirroring his actions...so I sent him a text on my way home from going out last night - AT 2:30 AM HIS TIME LOL saying Hey I'll call you tomorrow.
Time to reach your hand back now......LOL
Why the "LOL"? Is it only natural that once I detach I start enjoying my freedom & get sick of the drama WAS creates? I think this is where I'm at now. H has called everyday on his way home from work - "to see how the kids are doing" - (although he never asks to talk to them). Yesterday he called & didn't leave a message. Normally I'm so happy he called. Now I'm just like - UGH, I don't want to deal with him. Although to keep the momentum going, I think I should be mirroring his actions...so I sent him a text on my way home from going out last night - AT 2:30 AM HIS TIME LOL saying Hey I'll call you tomorrow.
Actually, what I meant was to help some of your fellow DB'ers reach where you are on this detachment phase......
Oh yea, once you start dropping the rope, their attention picks up a notch...
Enjoy your trip, and think about that coffee....
Gotcha! Yes I want to do coffee - what works for you next week? The only evening that's out for me is tues - I could do it during the day too.
I know DBing is solutions based, but does anyone know a WAH/W that has been able to tell us what is going on in their heads during this time.
Hi,
I wanted to tell you that even after I was an almost WAW, I still don't know if I can explain everything that is going on in the head of the S who is in MLC or WAS mode. Do you remember when you were a kid and riding one of those great big merry-go-rounds? At first it is exciting and it brings a thrill, then you notice how things on the outside of it gets very blurred and it is hard to focus on anything. The next think you know is you are getting very dizzy and if you don't get off the ride, you become sick and throwing up on all the innoncent by-standers. So, why would anybody with good sense get on one of those rides?
Maybe that is not a good example, but will talk more later.
Sandi
Hi Sandi -
I have wanted to hear from you for awhile, but also know that you are very busy helping others.
At first it is exciting and it brings a thrill
Can you help me understand this? What about it is exciting or thrilling?
I wondered if you could read thru my sitch & let me know your thoughts. The thing that keeps me holding onto my marriage is the contrasts in how H acts vs. what H says. It seems like in most sitches the S leaves shortly after they drop the bomb. Or they talk about leaving or D. H is still in the same house, sleeping in same bed, calls to let me know where he is going, calls to offer to pick dinner for me when he is running out for himself...things like that. He has said things awhile back such as - no matter what happens, we're all going to be ok. When he first dropped the bomb & I asked questions about splitting up - he seemed to have a plan like - I would be able to afford the house, he would still be very involved w/the kids, things like that...
But he has NEVER said the D word. In MC, he said even a month ago he still didn't know what he was going to do. I just keep thinking Why is he still here? Does he know deep down how much is at stake & really wants to make the right decision? Does he really not want to go, but subconsiously is just punishing me for awhile for feeling like I controlled him?
Any suggestions on how to act with him? I have, as you may have read, figured out how to drop the rope just last week.
Hey Hopeful, good for you on the detaching. You will continue to have ups and downs with it, but dont let that throw you, its normal.
Dont 'act' at all with h, just be your wonderful self who has been looking at herself and is working on changes.
Mine stayed in my bed for 7 months after the bomb, stayed in the house for another 14 months. So, who knows that they are thinking?
It took me a very looonggg time to stop myself from trying to figure out what it all meant.
Just keep moving forward. Remember, no expectations, GAL, No relationship talks and continue to work on becoming the person YOU want to be. That is really what this is all about.
Hopefully I will get time to read all of your thread. I have read your fist post and scanned over some others.
It is a very difficult situation to explain when I have been there myself and yet I don't know exactly how to describe it. Michelle's description of the WAW that is an article here on the board is excellent in wording the symptoms I had. I think some things may be different for men simply b/c of the sexual make-up in every thing we think and do is different.
I had tried as hard as I knew how for many, many years. I needed my H to talk about emotionally issues with me.....intimate issues......something weightier than the topic of "how's the weather tody". That is the kind of person I am. He, on the other hand, never talked and I did not know how to have a MR with a man who did not talk. I was the one who came up with different things to add "spice" to the R, etc. So, I felt as if I were the one who was doing all the work and never saw him putting forth "effort". In his own way, he was, but I could not see it. Over the years we had a lot of family problems with our kids growing up and other issues that most couples have. Time finally took its toll on me. I suffered many years from depression and did not seem to be able to find the right medication that helped. I began to withdraw more and more b/c he would not "talk" so I started spending more time on the computer playing on-line games to pass the time away. I was very lonely and felt as if I had died on the inside. I honestly did not "feel" anything. Another situation happened (too long to tell) that put more and more stress on me and on our R. Anyway, through playing the on-line games, I started responding to the flirtatious chatting and one thing led to another until I was in over my head before I seemed to realize what I was actually doing. At first it seemed harmless and it was fun to think that anyone would want to "flirt" with me. It brought a thrill to know that I must still have a tiny bit of attractiveness that a man would want to flirt. I was prime for a MLC but actually was older than most textbook models for mid-life. It wasn't long until I was having inappropriate conversations with OM on-line and my H discovered it and confronted me and told me to delete the contacts and to stop what I was doing. I kept contact with one man and it led to an EA b/c I was "rebelling" like a teenager. It is a very long story! It took me a long time to get out of that place in my life and if I had not found this board and received the help I did.....it scares me to think where my life would be today.
You and your H are young and he seems much too young to be in a MLC, but those symptoms and the WAS symptoms are very similiar. With stress upon our society the way it is now, more and more M's are experiencing burn-out, emotional divorce, EA's & PA's, etc. more than ever before. Families have too much pressure on them these days. I'm not giving excuses, just expressing an opinion.
I see a lot of anger in your first post and let me say that you have every right to feel like you do. But I want to quickly add that the reason your H feels like he does probably has nothing to do with "who" you are as a person and his wife. (Hope that makes sense) He is the one who is in a bad place emotionally and he's confused and really does not know what he wants. One day he's one way and the next, he's another way. That is how his emotions feel, also. Mine changed by the hour. I was in torment. My H suffered his own "h*ll" as I'm sure you are doing. We all face disappointments and stress in our lives and in R's. At some level, it tends to catch up and hits us so hard it knocks the breath out of us.....if we do not handle it in a health way. I did not handle mine in a healthy way and I wanted to run. I wanted to escape the horrible place I was in and find a "new life" outside of this one. That seemed to be the easiest way of cooping. But, how could I do that without hurting the ones I loved? So, your H doesn't want to bring you pain. I haven't read all the details yet, but if he is having the WAH symptoms, he is miserable and he's wanting to escape his old life and find a better one. Yes, that is unrealistic and that's most of his problem is leaning toward the fantasy instead of dealing with the reality. Do you suspect an EA? If he isn't interested emotionally with OW, he is a prime target. We'll talk more about that later.
The more you read about the symptoms of the WAS, the better you will know what to expect and what steps you need to take. You do need to decide if you are in for the long haul of this R or if you want out b/c you can't be wishy-washy like he is. One of you must have some solid foundation in order for it to work.
I had a list of Do's and Don'ts for the LBS that I had passed around for a while. You are in the same house with him and that gives you a great opportunity to show him how much fun you can be, what a great life the two of you can have together, your wonderful personality, etc. But you cannot "tell" him these things (that's very important to understand), you must show him without words. You show him by doing work on yourself and making any necessary changes. That is not to insult "you", but we all have to make a tune-up job from time to time.
I will try to find my list to post to you and then if you have any questions about it, just fire away. It is kind of long, but it is all taken from Michelle's DR book.
I'll be back.
The last time my computer crashed, I lost my updated list. I found an old pre-updated one on an old post.
DO’S & DON’TS FOR LBS
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls to him/her.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to him/her through conversation.....say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out the good things in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage
books, etc.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention. Don’t act as if you are going to gobble up their “crumbs”(Remember, you are
drawing him/her back with this technique.)
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. They can’t fix what is wrong.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.)
8. Do not buy gifts. (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together. (That is pursuing.)
10.Do not spy on spouse. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make him/her say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act as if you are moving on with your life as if you’ve had a “wake-up call”.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times!
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, go walking, etc.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be scarce or short on words but don’t act “hurt” or mad. If he/she asks what's wrong....just say "nothing". Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! Do not sit up late waiting for him/her to arrive home.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more importantly, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) Do not discuss your plans of self improvement.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around, somebody that is attractive and fun. You want them to think that they would be a fool to leave a person as great as you.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let him/her trap you into a fight. WAS are able to do that easily, so be on your guard and refuse to get into a R talk.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic in showing a PMA, b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how he/she feels (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.)
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give him/her space and time.
25.Do not go out with other people or flirt with others--in order to cause your spouse to feel jealous. It is best to stay away from places that would encourage temptation with the opposite sex.
Thanks so much for your input, Sandi.
Do you suspect an EA? If he isn't interested emotionally with OW, he is a prime target. We'll talk more about that later.
I have no idea. Although, I have now stopped snooping, I was for awhile. He started a new job about 3 months ago (after the bomb) so it's not like there would be a continuous coworker infatuation. Before he got the new job, he worked with me (not that there couldn't have been SOMEONE), but not your typical office situation. He is not sneaky, doesn't use the computer at home, leaves his cell phone laying around unlocked(which I have checked previously & never found anything), I checked cell phone records - nothing. He comes home straight from work, that sort of thing. People have said he may have a 2nd phone, but I searched high & low & never found one. I eventually decided snooping would eat me alive. Just like WAH, I can't control how he feels or what he does so if he has A, there is nothing I can do anyways. I know anything is possible & know that he is a prime target for some sort of A. The funny thing is - I am as well so trying to keep myself out of tempting situations.
In reading the dos & don'ts I am already applying the majority of them. Should I mirror what he does...or simply never call him? That's where I get confused.
Dear Hopeful,
It doesn't "sound" as if your H is in an EA, so maybe you won't have to deal with that. It could be that stress from different areas in life has caught up with him. He could be depressed. People can be depressed and not recognize it. Sounds odd, but if he is not contented in his life and feels unhappy but doesn't know the source, then you would become his primary target b/c you are "there" and it just happens. Like when you have a disease and take it out on the one closest to you. I don't "know" that that is what's going on. I have not been a LBW, but I have had to deal with other issues where I was the one "closest" to the person having problems and it is a miserable place to be. So if this is something similiar with your H, you will have a hard road to travel, but as I said before, you first need to know for sure if you are ready to stick it out and do the work. It won't be easy, but it is very possible to turn this around.
Should I mirror what he does...or simply never call him? That's where I get confused.
No, do NOT mirror what he does if it is negative. Your natural feelings will "want" to treat him in whatever manner he's treating you, but if you do that, then a D is certain. I can see where it would be hard for a LBS to grasp. Regarding returning emails, calls, TM's, etc.........don't contact him "first" unless it is a real emergency. Wait for him to contact you. The DR book teaches us to wait a little bit before returning the call. Don't wait so long that he stirs up his wrath, but the point is to appear to be unavailable to his crooked finger beconing to "come". Does that make sense? In my day, the single girls "played hard to get" and mostly faded away when Women's Lib hit the scene. But there was an old expression, "he chased her until she caught him" was very true. She was not so easy for him to get her to date him, and therefore she captured his interest even more. If she had jumped at the chance to go out with him and was hanging all over him, then she would not have been near as attractive and in fact, would have probably turned his interest in her the other direction.
In a way, you are that girl who is wanting to be attractive to him and cause him to chase you. This may really go against the grain, and it may sound as if I'm telling you to play games and not be honest......but that is not it at all. I don't know exactly how to put it into words, but I can tell you that we humans want what we think we can't have. If your H thinks he can't have you, then guess what will happen? He will suddenly become very interested in pursuing you. When you stop become so available, then you become attractive. It is how our nature works.
Almost every LBS that we tell that principle to is afraid to apply it b/c they are scared the WAS will think they are no longer wanting to work in the MR. If you follow the list I gave....and most of all study the DR book, and you "balance" the principles (by understanding how they work) then he will become attracted to you and will not want to leave the M.
You take up for yourself and never allow him to step on you like a doormat. You must have self-respect and show healthy self-esteem. However, do not be baited into an argument or treat him with the same "mood" that he may be showing when he's around the house, etc. Try to keep a PMA and throw yourself into doing things you enjoy. People who are busy and love life are interesting. You want to show that you are having a positive point of view and do not talk in a negative way around him and stay upbeat the best you can. People like being around another person who is energetic and positive. You have to learn to do this without appearing to pursue him. Men hate for their W's to purue them when the man is wanting out of the R. It is his nature to pursue the woman and therefore he needs to get back to that place where he will "want" to do that. Of course, you know not to act clingly or needy by things you say or do.....b/c that is a huge turn-off.
As I said before, I can see where you are feeling a lot of anger and I don't blame you for that. However, in order to make this succeed, you have to get "your" head together and know what you want to do and then start DBing.
Continue to post here b/c that is where your support will come from. Don't talk about him to family or friends. It will hurt your R if you do. Reach out to others here on the board.
BTW, maybe I need to clearify something about the mirroring his behavior....if he has "positive" actions, then I think you should respond warmly to that behavior. Where ML and things like that are concerned, it would be up to you. People have different POV about living under the same roof and having sex. But, the main thing is not trade out bad behavior for more bad behavior. If you see him "trying" to show positive attitude/actions, then I think you should respond in like manner.
I'll check back. If you have any other questions or if I have confused you even more, please let me know.
Sandi
Hi Hopeful. We have VERY similar situations!!! I have to run out, but wanted to say hi and Bookmark your thread for later, so I can read it all, and respond fully. Sandi really got me kickstarted back in November. I think I can benefit by some re-reading of solid advice, as well. Be well, and ill. Be back later!!
oh good i've been looking for that list again.. glad I ran into it..
Drew
Hopeful... Took awhile, but I finished your thread.
Cute wife (check!) LOL
Best friends (check!)
Couple people would be shocked to hear have issues (check!)
H w/family who shut down others completely if they have issues w/them (check!)
Chicago native! (Check!). Still close - 60 min W of ORD
H emotionally and physically checked out (check!)
You are much further along in this journey. I'm (for the most part) a teared up idiot! However, I will say, I would not be this far down the road in this sitch without DR/DB and the advice I've been given.
I have no experience w/MC's but I hate yours!!!
Hi Drew and Mindblank! Good to hear from you both. Mindblank, I actually found my more updated list of "Do's & Don'ts" on your old thread. I lost mine when my computer crashed. Anyway, thought I would add the last ones and if they overlap, you all just be patient...lol. Maybe I will get it together now. I don't want to wear anyone out with this list, but if it helps to use as a guideline, I'm happy to pass it alone.
List Continued.....
22.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
25.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
26.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
27.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
28.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
39.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
30.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
31.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
32.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
33.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
34.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
Sandi,
I need your guidance if you don't mind my asking. I have been separated from my WAW for a year. I'm going to link up with her for the 4th time next WED 1 JUL so I can have the boys for 2 weeks.
My wife has filed for divorce 5 months ago but hasn't done anything about it. I'd like to ask her to have lunch with me or something like that. Is it too much? Does it sound too desperate? What would be the best approach with her after 1 year of separation? I would like her to notice that I have truly made changes. How do I go about doing this when the only time we'll have is when I load up the kids' bags into my car?
Just wondering if you have any guidance I could use...
JR09
Hi Sandi,
Thanks for all the advice. Makes sense & I can do it. My biggest question is MC. MC likes to discuss "changes" my H has seen in me, etc. From everything I've read, it sounds like this is a negative thing. Any suggestions on how to get around this? I'm also thinking MC might be a waste. MC never spoke of WAS Syndrome - not that it is a true medical diagnosis, but I think she should have said - don't cry in front of him, start GALing, etc. She never told me not to talk about R. We started MC in Feb & I never figured out what was going on with H until picking up the DR in April. I think of how much time was wasted. I think MC should have known a little more of what to do vs. not to do based on conversations with H.
Well it really sucks that we are both in similar sitches - I hate that we are here. I am currently in Wheaton (leave today) - are you close to that? Sounds like you might be a little further maybe st. charles or geneva.
Well after 7 days out of town, H will be picking me up from the airport tonight...I was thinking if there were any lulls in the conversation on the drive home, I would pull out my phone, check texts, start laughing, say something vague like "Laura (friend I was just visiting) is so crazy" & text back....something to let him know what a great time I had while gone, that my life went on, something like that...already told friend she might be getting some weird texts this evening!
Well, he picked me up - no hug this time - wasn't expecting one though. Would have been nice. Phone was dead so I couldn't do the text trick. Had about 15 min of conversation during a 45 min car ride home. Whatever!
Hopeful, don't worry about lulls in the conversation. People don't have to fill the quiet gaps with words. In fact, if you are just "trying" to fill in the gaps, it could be a irratation to him. Men don't like women to keep a constant flow of talk. If it gets too quiet, maybe he will talk.
About the MC.....in MHO, there are some good ones out there but they are hard to find. By that I mean so many are not pro-marriage, or they are not experienced enough to give the correct guidance. Again, IMHO, I don't know that C both of you together in the same session is a good idea. I would think it would be more produtive to do it separately. It often leads to arguments in the session with the MC and the example of the C pointing out your changes. If it were me, I would put my money into talking to one of the DR coaches instead of that MC. If you are not happy with that one, you may have to try another. I know many men are hard to get them to go to MC, so you may have to go alone. That's just my opinion.
Take care,
Sandi
I am talking to DB coach as well - love her! MC is totally pro-marriage. My problem is that she obviously does not know how to address WAS. She would try to get him to understand WHY I was crying. Told him that I was grieving, etc. We met individually & together. She never advised me not to talk about R outside of MC. During individual NEVER gave me the advice offered in DR. Had to stumble across that on my own.
I'm scared to broach the subject of switching bc H has rapport PLUS will think I'm being CONTROLLING again. He will think - oh what, this one hasn't been able to talk some sense into me, so you think another one will?
MC says she needs both of us together or H will tell her things like - he & I haven't interacted...she said she needs me for a reality check to be able to say - yes we have. We have spent 20 hours together this week. Do you think I should try to see if H will talk to DB coach? I wonder what DB coach would talk about???
If it gets too quiet, maybe he will talk
Funny thing is, after about 15 minutes of silence (well me singing along to songs - what a chipper & upbeat person I am LOL), he started telling me about a house in our neighborhood that went under contract. So I was happy that he initiated some conversation.
After we were home for 15 minutes, he got the brilliant idea of going fishing. I told him to catch us some dinner to which he laughed. Secretly thinking it was interesting that he had to leave so soon after I just got home, but felt better when he had to call me for a jump bc the battery in his truck had died. He'd been listening to the radio w/the fog lights while he was at the pond. Glad to know he was where he said he was going...and I didn't even have to snoop!
After we were home for 15 minutes, he got the brilliant idea of going fishing. I told him to catch us some dinner to which he laughed. Secretly thinking it was interesting that he had to leave so soon after I just got home, but felt better when he had to call me for a jump bc the battery in his truck had died. He'd been listening to the radio w/the fog lights while he was at the pond. Glad to know he was where he said he was going...and I didn't even have to snoop!
LOL. Isn't it funny to be the first person that they call when they need to be rescued?
Hi Again Sandi,
Mach1 sent me this list which could also be incorporated into the list you send out. Just wanted to throw it out there bc it did help me:
When you criticize, you're working at improving your mate.
When you complain to your lover, you're working at improving them.
When you argue, you're working at improving them.
When you try to reason with them.
When you tell them how much you love them.
Both when you're reasoning and when you're telling them how much you love them, you are trying to change them. You are working at changing them. And it's that working at changing them, that is the only problem.
Proof? You want proof?
Stop all of that, and watch the relationship get better.
Stop all of that working. Allow and accept, one hundred percent, whatever your mate thinks, feels, or does is perfectly okay.
It's perfectly okay.
And watch them improve themselves.
Their negative feelings towards you will weaken rapidly, because their negative feeling needs something in you to fight with. And when you sincerely see what's on their side, when you sincerely agree with them, and when you lovingly and sincerely go one hundred percent totally, instantly, and happily your mate's way, when you do that there's nothing for their negative feeling to build on.
You have put the white flag up.
You've thrown your gun down.
That forces them to do the same thing. They cannot shoot you when you have no gun. When you're not defending yourself, THEY want to defend you.
It's not normal to not defend yourself, but it is healthy.
Agree with them.
Do not disagree at all.
It's not to your advantage.
....Her negative or his negative attitudes towards you are being supported by you communicating what you want.
Every time you say to them, "But, I love you," you are saying, "but I want something different than what you want. You want to pull away, but I want you to come closer. I don't really care what you want. It's what I want that's important."
Lots of times men tell their wives, "I've changed. I've changed. Let's get back together. I've changed."
I tell the husbands that "Every time you say, 'I've changed,' you're communicating to her that you have not changed."
"Really? Why is that? How is that? I don't understand that."
"Of course, you don't understand. But what's your motivation? Why are you telling him or her how you've changed? What's your purpose? Isn't it to get your way?"
"Yeah, I want her back."
"That's your way. It's not her way, right now. She said she may consider it later, maybe, but not right now. And every time you say, 'I've changed,' you're saying, 'Give me my way! Give me my way! Give me my way! What I want is more important than what you want. I don't give a hoot what you want."
And subconsciously, she says, "He hasn't changed. He's still the neurotic, selfish, pressuring guy he always was. There's no way I'm going to go back to him, or feel positive to him as long as he is this way."
Mach, So when are we getting together?
I was always the big talker in our M, but over the years I have found out that it isn't necessary to always have a steady stream of conversation.
Glad you called a DB Coach. Why don't you just let your H go to the MC and you stick with the Coach? I think maybe the MC means well, but she doesn't know about DBing and your H doesn't need to know your tools you are getting through the DB Coach. What do you think he would say if you told him you thought it would be better to go separetly to counselors or that maybe not the same one?
I don't agree with what she's having you discuss. I would not want to talk about that in front of my H either.
BTW, I liked your advice on LFH's thread.
Take care,
Sandi
Okay would love to hear thoughts on MC session...
MC: So how have things been around the house on a day to day basis?
Me: We have had some good times - Father's Day was nice, we went to a BBQ for S7's bball league together, over to MIL's for dinner, then I went out of town for a week.
H: yes, there were some nice times, but we don't have many interactions.
Me: That's true we don't have much time together lately. I have been focusing on growth w/in myself right now & feeling great about it. I think Mr. HVA is able to grow from all of this too and that makes me really happy.
MC: How was being out of town for the week?
Me: It was so great. It was like getting back to my roots. As you get older, your life becomes more structured & rigid. It was just good to remember the authentic "me" who was so fun-loving.
MC: HVA, you said before you were making changes based on what Mr. HVA has said - has anything else come to light that you may be working on?
Me: I am focusing on growth in areas that I feel I want to develop partially based on what Mr. HVA has said, but there are many other things I am working on too just because I want to.
MC: Have you shared these things w/Mr. HVA?
Me: No, and I don't care to. I plan for people to SEE what I am doing, not tell them about them.
MC: Mr. HVA, you always say HVA makes you feel guilty about doing things. Has she been doing this?
H: No, but I still don't feel anything for HVA.
MC: Well, sometimes feelings take awhile to catch up with the changes. Are you always waiting for the other shoe to drop, like when is HVA going to go back to her old ways.
H: No, I believe she has made real changes & will not go back. I just don't feel like I love her. She & the kids had been gone for a week & I had lots of time to think about things & sometimes I wonder if we wouldn't just be happier if we split up & went our separate ways.
Me: I am not worried about splitting up & finding someone else. Believe me, I get hit on ALL the time, I'm still young & I'm not financially strapped to H...but there are still no other 2 perfect people in this world to raise our children, we would screw ourselves financially & most of all - I love him.
H: It just feels like we're not even married anymore. It's like we're just co parents.
Me: Well that probably has to do w/the fact that we don't spend any alone time together anymore & we barely do anything as a family. There isn't all that much to talk about anymore. We have alot in common being that we've been together almost 14 yrs & I've always cherished our friendship.
MC: Well, Mr. HVA it sounds like your feelings have really changed. When you first came in you didn't think there was ANY way Mrs. HVA could change. You said people can't change. Now you are saying you believe she's made lasting changes.
H: Yes that's true.
MC: Well should we schedule our next appt. for 2-3 weeks out.
H: How about next week?????
Why in 1 week if you don't even want to work on M???????????? This is all I can remember...lots of other stuff...
Wow... I think MC gave mr. HVA something to think about by bringing up that he didn't think you could change...
It is irritating to think that they're just sitting around waiting for feelings to come back without doing anything to bring the feelings about.
I KNOW! I'm thinking time for some SERIOUS GAL! I do think it is pretty cool that he is acknowledging the changes & that he believes they are real...
Hopeful,
Sounds like you handled yourself very well in the MC. Sounds like your H us sticking to the WAS script, but it sounds like you have given him some things to think about.
Hang in there.
I do regret having done so much talking...I have to say MC is tricky. I have a great friend who has been such a support for me all along the way. We both discuss what I should & shouldn't say before I go. That is how I had already prepared the answer regarding my changes. I knew MC would ask & I didn't want to talk about them!
It's crazy - I have other people telling me to throw in the towel at this point. If I've made all my changes & he still doesn't feel anything, they think that means he is done & always will be.
I figure if it's taken 6 months to break him of his beliefs that people can't change, it's going to take awhile still to get him "on board" with WANTING to feel anything. Plus I didn't work this hard for this long to give up NOW!
Anyone who tells me that he's done, I say - who cares?! He might be done today, but that doesn't mean he'll be done tomorrow. H & I started dating in Sept 96 & I didn't feel like I loved him until Jan. Even in Dec., I was asking my college roommate when she thought I should break up with him! I didn't care about him in Dec, but wanted to say ILY in Jan. If someone would have said in Dec, do you or will you ever love Mr. HVA - I would have said HECK NO! But w/in that one month, something changed. So why would it be any different now?
I keep thinking if he dropped the bomb in Jan & he's STILL in the house & in the same bed...he can't be done, done. If you get what I'm saying. There must be something in him that doesn't want to or know how to take the next step...so until then time is on MY side!
It is irritating to think that they're just sitting around waiting for feelings to come back without doing anything to bring the feelings about.
Irritating, but understandable. They are so wrapped up in their own hopelessness that they don't know how, and they're not really motivated to try. All they know is that they WANT to feel good again, and will do ANYTHING to get that back. Anything, that is, except reconnect with the spouse, who they seem to look on as the reason for all their unhappiness. This is probably why a large number of them seem to have EAs/PAs.
I've seen several former & current WAW's on this board...does anyone know of any WAH's?
"I've seen several former & current WAW's on this board...does anyone know of any WAH's?"
I don't know of any.
The C session was not bad. I don't know that I would put a lot of merit into him asking to meet again in a week.
I still think that you should focus on the fact that he is still there. Act as if still applies.
Even if he is acknowledging that you are changing that is not always a good thing. He could think you are changing the wrong way and just not saying anything. Just as you have learned that you can get caught up in the "Emotion" he is too. The "Emotion" colors everything you "see" and "do". It narrows your scope of view on things. If you want a perfect example of that look at some of the interactions that me and Sandi2 had back in the day.
I used to use the analogy of a GPS system. You know you are driving along and it is guiding you to your destination. Then you turn off the path it is recommending. It has to recalculate. That is what your H is doing right now recalculating. Sometimes the GPS will take the long/wrong way. Sometimes your H will to. You are still in control of where you are "driving" in both situations. DB'ing is a tool for you.. just like the GPS. Used correctly it will save you time. Used incorrectly it will have you recalculating too.
You have a lot of good things going on. Focus on that.. and figure out why and how it is working. Then keep doing it.
Well when H & I get things back on track - I'll see if he'll be the first!
I've seen several former & current WAW's on this board...does anyone know of any WAH's?
I wish! I do like getting the man-POV from the male LBS's though...
Even if he is acknowledging that you are changing that is not always a good thing. He could think you are changing the wrong way and just not saying anything.
I don't think this is the case here bc he seems to love to use MC as a forum to point out ANYTHING that is wrong w/me or what I do.
If you want a perfect example of that look at some of the interactions that me and Sandi2 had back in the day.
Is this on your thread? Where could I find it?
I used to use the analogy of a GPS system
So would you be saying right now that H was heading one direction & now, because of my changes, he has had to recalculate...and figure out what he is going to do next?
They are so wrapped up in their own hopelessness that they don't know how, and they're not really motivated to try. All they know is that they WANT to feel good again, and will do ANYTHING to get that back. Anything, that is, except reconnect with the spouse, who they seem to look on as the reason for all their unhappiness.
Equally frustrating is seeing the energy and enthusiasm that they have for just about any other option. They're very motivated to try to fix things, just not with us.
Wanted to get opinions on something...
Our kids are out of town this week...should I try kind of going dark? For instance, be gone when H gets home from work, no phone calls, etc. to try & get him to be interested.
OR
The thing that happened recently that got the most positive response was to plan a family day for Father's Day, we all went fishing & had a picnic. Kids & I were catching a flight later that night to head out of town so I had bought some frozen pizzas, coffee, etc to tide him over while we were away. I had the kids make a card that said - We'll miss you & sign it...I signed underneath saying I hope you have a great week. Then I ran back in the house when we were in the car getting ready to go & had it sitting out for him to see when he came home.
When he dropped us off at the airport, he gave me a hug (the first physical contact he has initiated since Feb.) He then sent a text saying he loved the artwork when he arrived home to find the card.
This should tell me that maybe I should do a nice act of service for him, don't tell him & maybe just go out GALing shortly after he arrives home?
Now mind you in MC, he says even though I've changed, he still has no feelings for me. Just wondered if I should do a complete 180 - going dark.
Mach, So when are we getting together?
Soon
Know where the old Lorton Prison is ?
A little north of there is a Starbucks that has the BEST coffee.....
Can you send me the intersection or address on here? Or will we get in trouble? What time of day & which day is best for you?
I'll let you know a couple days in advance.
And YES, trouble can come easy....
It's right off of 123
ok - I can figure out the location...you tell me the time!
I will.....
it is right before you go into Occoquan.....
"I don't think this is the case here bc he seems to love to use MC as a forum to point out ANYTHING that is wrong w/me or what I do."
Fair enough. I was not suggesting that was the case but it could be an option. The finger pointing is a normal part of it. Again if you "distance" yourself from it.. soon they have nothing to point at. These are very hard concepts to explain.
"Is this on your thread? Where could I find it?"
It was usually on other peoples threads where me and Sandi2 ran into each other.
"So would you be saying right now that H was heading one direction & now, because of my changes, he has had to recalculate...and figure out what he is going to do next?"
In the scheme of things I would say you both are recalculating. So yes.. to answer your question.
"This should tell me that maybe I should do a nice act of service for him, don't tell him & maybe just go out GALing shortly after he arrives home?"
On the surface it seems like you both win there.
"Now mind you in MC, he says even though I've changed, he still has no feelings for me. Just wondered if I should do a complete 180 - going dark."
Why would you "react" when you have been told not to listen to everything they say? You never do things because it might be the best thing. You do things cause you know its the right thing to do and you want to do it. No one can fault you for doing something nice.. because you want to. We can fault you for doing something that has not worked in the past. DB says to try it.. for a while and gauge whether it is working or not. You have had success with something. I might suggest you keep trying it till it stops working. Don't flip-flop. Be consistent with what you do. It is easier to tell if it is working that way.
"Can you send me the intersection or address on here? Or will we get in trouble? What time of day & which day is best for you?"
They kinda frowned upon this so be careful. If Mach1 knows J3B he might want to lead you somewhere else. Be careful with what you put out there for the public to see. Remember DB is very public. Just search Google with your user name.
Why would you "react" when you have been told not to listen to everything they say? You never do things because it might be the best thing. You do things cause you know its the right thing to do and you want to do it. No one can fault you for doing something nice.. because you want to. We can fault you for doing something that has not worked in the past. DB says to try it.. for a while and gauge whether it is working or not. You have had success with something. I might suggest you keep trying it till it stops working. Don't flip-flop. Be consistent with what you do. It is easier to tell if it is working that way.
Fair enough - I guess I was just beginning to lose my patience & wanted to jump to a different "technique".
Hi Sandi,
I really appreciate your feedback so far. I wondered if you felt like all the advice you give to LBH's applies exactly the same way to LBW's. The thing that makes me ask this is that women want a H they can respect so if they are off living their own life & being independent this falls in line...but if my H feels like I have been too controlling, does this same line of thought apply...or does the "respect/control" issue even come into play...is it more about the wanting something you can't have?
Are there any threads you can point me in the direction of where a LBW got her WAH back?
If Mach1 knows J3B he might want to lead you somewhere else.
Please speak plainly. Are you trying to imply that Mach1 and/or J3B have/had ill intent? What are you trying to say with your remark, Forrest?
"Are you trying to imply that Mach1 and/or J3B have/had ill intent?"
No not at all. I only know Mach1 from this post here. I have known J3B just from posting to other people. From what I can tell they both are stand up people and good leaders.
"What are you trying to say with your remark, Forrest?"
DB.com has rules about sharing private information. The rules are there to protect the people posting here. Again DB.com is a very public forum. You do not have to be a member to read only to post. This means that any search engine (Google/Yahoo) can crawl the post here and it becomes search able. Again.. search your user name in Google. There have been a few occasions where people have posted too personal information and a lot of drama has ensued. With that being said DB.com is not the only place that people talk. There are places that are private and allow more "communication". I cannot help you find them. But I can say that they have been talked about "here" (DB.com). I will also say that if you seek to get closer to the people that talk to you "here" please be safe about it.. be smart about it. I know of a few people here that have met and then married. I know of a few people that have met and been utterly disappointed. Does that clear things up?
It's okay.....I understand where Forest is coming from...
I'm going to be as vague as possible....
Forrest, I'm going to hit you up in the Alt....
Hey Hope !
You good today ?
Change in venues is on order.....stay tuned for previews of NEXT weeks show....
LOL
I was thinking he was going to direct us to another website where we could speak more openly. I think Forrest is friends w/J3B outside of this site.
I was thinking he was going to direct us to another website where we could speak more openly. I think Forrest is friends w/J3B outside of this site.
There is one that I know of that has a DB'ing Fan page...
Good luck with that Hopeful N. Virginia....
"Are you trying to imply that Mach1 and/or J3B have/had ill intent?"
No not at all. I only know Mach1 from this post here. I have known J3B just from posting to other people. From what I can tell they both are stand up people and good leaders.
"What are you trying to say with your remark, Forrest?"
DB.com has rules about sharing private information. The rules are there to protect the people posting here. Again DB.com is a very public forum. You do not have to be a member to read only to post. This means that any search engine (Google/Yahoo) can crawl the post here and it becomes search able. Again.. search your user name in Google. There have been a few occasions where people have posted too personal information and a lot of drama has ensued. With that being said DB.com is not the only place that people talk. There are places that are private and allow more "communication". I cannot help you find them. But I can say that they have been talked about "here" (DB.com). I will also say that if you seek to get closer to the people that talk to you "here" please be safe about it.. be smart about it. I know of a few people here that have met and then married. I know of a few people that have met and been utterly disappointed. Does that clear things up?
Very much so. Thanks. I didn't mean to sound like I was trying to pick a fight w/ you, Forrest. You seem to me to be a stand up person yourself, and you do bring up valid points with which I agree. It's just that I have seen so many readers/posters get "the wrong end of the stick" from misinterpreting something said in someone's post, which then builds assumptions based on misunderstandings on their part, which then blows up into a....tangled mess. Both Mach1 and J3B are highly respected DBers that have helped many folks with their sitches, and I just wanted to make sure it all stayed "real", and that we didn't have a bunch of people swoop in on the thread to defend them from allegations of being abductors, gun runners, green stamp thieves, etc, etc, etc, when nobody really said anything about that at all!
May sound silly, but I've seen it happen on other threads with different posters and it's not pretty!
Jim,
How the heck did you know I stole your Green Stamps last weekend ?
Dammit !
uh oh - I'm really bad at this...is it on fb? I've tried google...or am I supposed to be waiting for more info.
BTW Coaching call today...Laurie thinks H is in more of an identity/MLC than WAH. GREAT!
uh oh - I'm really bad at this...is it on fb? I've tried google...or am I supposed to be waiting for more info.
BTW Coaching call today...Laurie thinks H is in more of an identity/MLC than WAH. GREAT!
I absolutely agree with Laurie.....
Starts with a F.......
You like lines ?
Read between them......
"May sound silly, but I've seen it happen on other threads with different posters and it's not pretty!"
I have likely been one of those defending or attacking depending on whose post it was on. I was told along time ago to talk at the poster and not the other people. Maybe I take it too far sometimes? I have been accused of "Crazy Talk" before. I knew that Mach1 would get it.
HVA..
Have you met my friend Kalni Sunshine.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1772399#Post1772399You could have searched google but I figured I would make it easy for you. /sarcasm off.
I also blame her because she started it all.
"BTW Coaching call today...Laurie thinks H is in more of an identity/MLC than WAH. GREAT!"
I will give you this comment. MLC/Identity Crisis and the WAS share alot of the same "symptoms". The difference is usually the MLC/IC person will have more specific issues with themselves and attempt to "recreate" themselves. MLC/IC is also usually tied to age. Although some research has pointed out that people are experiencing MLC/IC are getting younger. In the end the advice to "win" will be the same. There is no reason to "define" what the issue may or may not be. Simply because it is the OP's issue to deal with. I may take some heat over that statement.. but.. there it is.
uh oh - I'm really bad at this...is it on fb? I've tried google...or am I supposed to be waiting for more info.
BTW Coaching call today...Laurie thinks H is in more of an identity/MLC than WAH. GREAT!
I absolutely agree with Laurie.....
I wholeheartedly second that.
I figured it out...at least one part. I think the other part too.
"BTW Coaching call today...Laurie thinks H is in more of an identity/MLC than WAH. GREAT!"
I will give you this comment. MLC/Identity Crisis and the WAS share alot of the same "symptoms". The difference is usually the MLC/IC person will have more specific issues with themselves and attempt to "recreate" themselves. MLC/IC is also usually tied to age. Although some research has pointed out that people are experiencing MLC/IC are getting younger. In the end the advice to "win" will be the same. There is no reason to "define" what the issue may or may not be. Simply because it is the OP's issue to deal with. I may take some heat over that statement.. but.. there it is.
Giving no heat here- just a perspective from my own experiences.
From an action point of view, I totally agree- the advice to "win" will be the same. Where we might diverge in opinion is that, for me, being able to "define" my sitch as MLC/IC was extremely helpful as a coping mechanism, exactly because of what an MLC/IC is. It seems to me that, with a WAS, you are dealing with a reasonable individual that can use common sense. When a WAS walks away, you can rest assured that you most likely had a significant role in them leaving. With MLC/IC, that same reasoning capacity and common sense is not as apparent, or in some situations even absent. Because, as you say, the MLC/ICer has specific issues with themselves, I believe that it's entirely possible to be the absolute perfect spouse to them, and they will STILL find fault with SOMETHING in order to justify escaping the R.
I will be the first to admit that I was
not the perfect spouse, but at the same time I don't feel I did anything bad enough to warrant my W acting and treating me the way she does, or seeking a D.
For me, the difference is being able to more readily forgive myself for my own shortcomings in the M, and recognizing that my W has a problem that is all her own....one that I can't "help" her with.... and that she would probably go through this whether I had met her or not.
That alone has brought me along farther than anything else in being able to stand.
I'm just curious, but what about my sitch makes you all agree so quickly?
Weird thing, H's friend from Bball calls me the other day & says - your H is acting really strange. He just sits at the games really quiet & doesn't joke around anymore.
Jim,
How the heck did you know I stole your Green Stamps last weekend ?
Dammit !
Simple- I saw you hide them in the crates with all the guns you were abducting...
I'm just curious, but what about my sitch makes you all agree so quickly?
Weird thing, H's friend from Bball calls me the other day & says - your H is acting really strange. He just sits at the games really quiet & doesn't joke around anymore.
just answered your own question.....
Jim,
How the heck did you know I stole your Green Stamps last weekend ?
Dammit !
Simple- I saw you hide them in the crates with all the guns you were abducting...
Jimm Beau.......dammit man.....you are like a hawk eye....
have you checked - did I find you? if not, you might have to find me...
Great now I'm guaranteed to have to deal w/an A. I think I prefer not to know.
This one's for you Forrest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKZdwhY5dZY
Nope......try another name, one that looks different from what you've seen.....
/\