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Posted By: SmileysPerson Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 02:24 AM
I'm goin' to Louisiana, gonna get me a mojo hand,
I'm goin' to Louisiana, boys, and get me a mojo hand.
I'm gonna get my mojo hand, yeah, I'm gonna bring it back home.


--Lightnin' Hopkins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNDJF4azgog

Well, when last we convened, Coach had advised me (via Greek) to "Use [my] Mulligan."

Coach and Greek recommended "to get in there and love her through it/out of" the crisis WAW seems to be in.

Sara advised me not to "let that Retrouvaille thought [WAW mentioned] fall on the floor and die there."

After a bit of a spat around lunch yesterday, WAW sent the aforementioned e-mail that included the reference to "that Catholic thing" her Friend had used with Wayward Adulterous H.

We took the kids to the movies as planned -- "Up," simply amazing outstanding unbelievable and very adult (and not just by Pixar standards) -- went the four of us to a pleasant dinner (spanakopita for me, Greek, thank you very much), put the kids to bed, and then watched (at opposite ends of the sofa) a bit of the old teevee before retiring to our respective beds.

This morning -- more good vibes, got along well; WAW went on her long run for the charity marathon, I got the kids underway. I had to put some meat in the broiler lest it spoil and asked her if I could make her a lunch to take to the office (she needed to catch up on paperwork today); after starting to say, "You don't have to --" she caught herself and said, "Sure, thanks, that would be nice." So I boxed her up some butterflied sirloin, yellow rice, and what-not, then she went to work and I went into action with the kid stuff.

S9 needed some gadgetry for school, so from the mall I sent her some photos for consideration. And that's when it began.

In the prepare-to-play-the-Mulligan vein, I'd sent her a link this morning -- not the actual information, no direct pressure -- to the Retrouvaille website.

-----Subject: Catholic Marriage Thing Friend Told You About.

So I had a couple degrees of separation there. And the e-mail body was very circumspect -- this is what Friend was talking about. And just the link -- no editorial comment, just a kind of "click it if you want to" thing, right?

YYYYYeahhhhh, pushing a bit, okay. But in for a penny, in for a pound. Who dares wins. Fortune favors the bold. (Quick, someone get to Wikiquotes before I run out of these little aphorisms!)

And I get this e-mail -- I've rearranged the phrasing a bit for anonymity but not the message -- in response about 4 hours later:

I am open to this, but I do think we need a little space and time to cool off a bit. I think it would be more productive if we had a few more days like yesterday. [And some more, rather less pressing comments.]

I replied, validating, applauding the courage, etc. And I added in the reply: "I hope you don't think I'm trying to force you into anything. I accept where we are. The resistance days are over -- you said so yourself. You brought it up, and it's just something that's out there, if at any point we think it might be worth exploring."

To which she replied (almost immediately) No, I don't see forcing or begging. And I don't want you to think that my pride, big as it is, would keep us from reconciling. I do feel that a lot of people including you don't give me enough credit for the feelings I have about what I've lost.... Just because we're in this situation at the moment doesn't mean that this is the result I wanted or that I see this as the only possible permanent outcome.

So I need to get down to Lou's'ana and get me a mojo hand.

----------------------------
1) http://tinyurl.com/daegpj ... 6) http://tinyurl.com/qznvs2
2) http://tinyurl.com/d2frft ... 7) http://tinyurl.com/pqewxf
3) http://tinyurl.com/c9dtcw ... 8) http://tinyurl.com/r7nzst
4) http://tinyurl.com/cpr2jz ... 9) http://tinyurl.com/njxtjq
5) http://tinyurl.com/d3k4e9
Posted By: kara Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 02:26 AM
Wow! This sounds good, SP!!
Posted By: mnt_dreams Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 03:31 AM
Quote:
YYYYYeahhhhh, pushing a bit, okay. But in for a penny, in for a pound. Who dares wins. Fortune favors the bold. (Quick, someone get to Wikiquotes before I run out of these little aphorisms!)


Nothing ventured, nothing gained! Good job, SP!
Posted By: Sara Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 03:45 AM
Excellent. It would not hurt to contact the local group for info on upcoming weekends. There's a very good tri-fold brochure that they give out. Maybe he could send one to you.
Posted By: Sara Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 03:49 AM
Oh, and I don't remember who asked, yes, my H and I reconciled. We went to Retrouvaille, had a big turnaround at the weekend, and continued to make progress throughout the Post program, and now it is 2 1/2 years later and we just got back from a family cruise. In the past 2 1/2 years I think we have only had angry words twice. Before Retrouvaille, if we spoke to each other, our words were as sharp as knives.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 05:10 AM
Unfortunately the next weekend in my area isn't until September, but that's okay -there's the space and cooling off.

And I'm not practicing my end-zone dance just yet; Mrs is more than a little freaked by the growing Reality represented by the receipt of her house keys and the start of June - the month of Kid D-bomb.

So let's say I like the tone, but am going to assume nothing, take nothing for granted, and continue The Work as if nothing has changed. Miles to go before I sleep.

Suffice it to say this night: The corporeally enhanced female has yet to begin to croon.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 04:01 PM
Journal oh journal -- a pleasant morning exchange with Herself, nothing much to report. She tried to tell a joke. Of course she can't tell jokes, but that's okay -- she tried, which means she's comfortable enough with our kinda-sorta-maybe equilibrium to not be completely on guard. That's progress. In what direction one does not know. "Hey boys! Land, ho! We found China! Wait, never mind, sorry -- I can see Club Med. It's just Puerto Rico!" But still.....

On the negative side, feel a bit of the old Fear creeping up the spine, in search of the medulla oblongata no doubt. It's hungry, The Fear. It wants to feed.

Today is June 1. 13 days until the day the kids experience the Bomb. Must begin to plan, as Coach said. Must begin to mojoize, junior-version.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 04:07 PM
Quote:
On the negative side, feel a bit of the old Fear creeping up the spine, in search of the medulla oblongata no doubt. It's hungry, The Fear. It wants to feed.


What is your worst fear?
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 04:07 PM
Watch Out! or you'll soon find yourself in my condition: the more indications she gives that she is coming back toward me, the more my mojo evaporates...
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 04:13 PM
A sound warning, indeed, Thinker, but as I noted I am proceeding along the same mojo path. I assume that the battle plan will not survive the first contact. I am operating under the assumption that continued, active DB'ing is the only axis of advance, because WAW is D'ing SP -- full stop. If, in some bizarro alternate galaxy, that doesn't happen, I'll be happy to be surprised.

@alive: My biggest fear? Hmmmm. Off the top of my head, I think it's that I'll have to redirect so much mojo to them -- and properly so -- that I will emerge in a far weaker position for myself, vis-a-vis coping with D. Like Charlotte in Charlotte's Web, I'll take the hit for them. Which is the right thing to do. But from a purely selfish POV does cause some concern.
Posted By: Coach Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 04:14 PM
Quote:
I am open to this, but I do think we need a little space and time to cool off a bit. I think it would be more productive if we had a few more days like yesterday.



Make notes of what worked. Make sure you give some space for her to move towards you. Be prepared for a little pull back.

Quote:
No, I don't see forcing or begging. And I don't want you to think that my pride, big as it is, would keep us from reconciling. I do feel that a lot of people including you don't give me enough credit for the feelings I have about what I've lost.... Just because we're in this situation at the moment doesn't mean that this is the result I wanted or that I see this as the only possible permanent outcome.


This is great.


Side note: pride, hates to lose = insecurity
You not "being there" when her Mom died fed into that.
Don't be her security blanket but her strong, dependable, secure husband. This is the friend she wants you to be.
More later. You are handling it.
Cheers
Coach
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 04:25 PM
Quote:
@alive: My biggest fear? Hmmmm. Off the top of my head, I think it's that I'll have to redirect so much mojo to them -- and properly so -- that I will emerge in a far weaker position for myself, vis-a-vis coping with D. Like Charlotte in Charlotte's Web, I'll take the hit for them. Which is the right thing to do. But from a purely selfish POV does cause some concern.


Well, you're a lucky you know what it is.

I know you can handle it. See, I think I read somewhere that the mojo you generate when taking a hit for your offspring actually initiates major mojo production and you get double for your trouble. Seriously, there is NOTHING more mojo-ful than taking care of your kids. You can really embolden your sense of self by knowing that you have a very clear purpose right now. You are aware of what is driving you, that is so great.

From my perspective and dealing in generalities, you are being a stand-up "Man." Maybe try to look at it as a man thing and not as much of an eating crow thing...am I making sense? You are TCB.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 04:40 PM
Wow,

I had no idea your mojo had fear also. This is good, actually. Maybe, just maybe, this isn't done? Maybe being a stand-up strong man with a sensitive side isn't so bad?

On your last thread you said I was frustrated with you. Actually, I was just trying to get you to temper the mojo a bit. It is when you give up totally that you fill a self-fulfilling prophecy to fail.

You are doing wonderful. Now give some thought to the possibilities. Can you have the same mojo if you aren't convinced you are already D? If you can't just be fixated on that and have to straddle the limbo pole a bit?

I'll bet you can. I have faith in you.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 04:54 PM
SP

I agree with aliveandkicking. Taking care of others generates big time mojo.

Be a strong, confident, loving husband AND father.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 04:58 PM
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Can you have the same mojo if you aren't convinced you are already D? If you can't just be fixated on that and have to straddle the limbo pole a bit?


It's Hard. It's Really Hard!

- As soon as you think things are improving, you suddenly realize that you DO have something to lose - and start being afraid of losing it! (Fear)

- As soon as you start seeing some improvement, you start expecting more, and get frustrated when things stop or revert! (Anger)

- As soon as the WAS starts showing pain, your instincts for caretaking kick in (Pursuit)

- WAS backs off and you feel the loss all over again (Pain and Sorrow)

The DB methodology doesn't give much guidance here except "Stay Strong", "Take it Slow", etc., It

It's difficult, but it is still an improvement over where you are /were.

We'll all have to figure it out together...
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 05:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Can you have the same mojo if you aren't convinced you are already D? If you can't just be fixated on that and have to straddle the limbo pole a bit?


It's Hard. It's Really Hard!

- As soon as you think things are improving, you suddenly realize that you DO have something to lose - and start being afraid of losing it! (Fear)

- As soon as you start seeing some improvement, you start expecting more, and get frustrated when things stop or revert! (Anger)

- As soon as the WAS starts showing pain, your instincts for caretaking kick in (Pursuit)

- WAS backs off and you feel the loss all over again (Pain and Sorrow)

The DB methodology doesn't give much guidance here except "Stay Strong", "Take it Slow", etc., It

It's difficult, but it is still an improvement over where you are /were.

We'll all have to figure it out together...


omg, YES!!! YES, THAT'S IT!!! shocked
Someone finally put a finger on what it is I've been struggling with!

Puppy
Posted By: Coach Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 05:22 PM
Quote:
Be a strong, confident, loving husband AND father


Wouldn't you all call that also being a friend?
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 06:32 PM
Quote:
loving husband


Doesn't that go beyond "friend" and into tricky territory?
Posted By: Greek Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 06:44 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Quote:
loving husband


Doesn't that go beyond "friend" and into tricky territory?


Nope. Loving is what a friend does. Sure, it will be "tricky", as you say, if the R is in disarray but that doesn't preclude either party from loving (Love in the action verb sense of the word).

Cheers ~~~
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 06:44 PM
What Thinker said.

For now, The Wifey, I think I'll continue to follow my adaption of the Spiers Paradigm:
Quote:
The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function.

Knowing myself -- and I do, fairly well -- my greatest weakness, the thing that has done me the most harm throughout the entirety of my life, is Expectations.

One reason Herself got so frustrated with me over the course of the M (see Thread #1) was that from her POV I was a "swirling vortex of misery." Well I'm sure there's a rich field to be plowed vis-a-vis childhood on that, but as MWD says knowing what got you where you are only helps you understand what got you where you are. I so easily create Expectations out of all scale to reality that when they aren't met I come crashing down.

For now, I'd rather tamp down the Expectations and just go with what seems to be working. Day-by-day, meter-by-meter, step-by-step.

At a minimum, this will allow me to recalibrate, adjust, reset, revise, re-what-ever-I-need-to-do in the event things move Southwards without nearly as much psychic anguish as I'd have if I went through "but I was doing so good!"
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 06:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Greek
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Quote:
loving husband


Doesn't that go beyond "friend" and into tricky territory?


Nope. Loving is what a friend does. Sure, it will be "tricky", as you say, if the R is in disarray but that doesn't preclude either party from loving (Love in the action verb sense of the word).

Cheers ~~~


Oh, it was the "husband" part that I thought was tricky more than the "loving" part. smirk
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 06:49 PM
Quote:
Day-by-day, meter-by-meter, step-by-step.


Good mantra!
Posted By: Greek Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 06:49 PM
Gotcha!
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 07:21 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson

For now, I'd rather tamp down the Expectations and just go with what seems to be working. Day-by-day, meter-by-meter, step-by-step.

At a minimum, this will allow me to recalibrate, adjust, reset, revise, re-what-ever-I-need-to-do in the event things move Southwards without nearly as much psychic anguish as I'd have if I went through "but I was doing so good!"


Bingo!

...but easier said than done.

Good luck. I share exactly the same problem - It has just taken me longer to realize it. crazy
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 08:11 PM
Some DB'er somewhere once wrote something to the effect that when you get a good word from WAS you shouldn't jump to Cloud Nine and when you get a sour word you shouldn't jump off a bridge.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 09:16 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Some DB'er somewhere once wrote something to the effect that when you get a good word from WAS you shouldn't jump to Cloud Nine and when you get a sour word you shouldn't jump off a bridge.


That's called being detached.

or in the words of Schnarch "Differentiated"

- The ability to calmly hold onto yourself (your emotions, your beliefs) even when in close contact with someone who is both important to you and disagreeing with you.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/01/09 11:16 PM
Journal entry - late afternoon mojo drain, brought on by txt convo w/ WAW re: shopping at Giant Supply Retailer (the retailer where everything is giant). Asked Herself if she needed anything - no, I'll just take half of what you get - which wasn't a bad little quip, really, but it did serve as a reminder of what's coming. The next 2 weeks are going to be quick ones to be sure and so will be the following 2. Had to listen to my theme song a couple times to generate fresh mojo.

Woods. Not out of them yet. Naval types with a historical bent will understand when I say we're still @ Battle of the Coral Sea phase here. Midway (and Stalingrad) are still a ways off...
Posted By: orangedog Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/02/09 01:50 AM
To use your metaphor take your lessons in toughness from the Aussies and Yanks at Coral Sea and your tenacity from the Russians in Stalingrad. Use it all to be the best Smiley you can be.

It will go fast. Maybe you'll end up kind of like me wondering why if we're so friendly are we dividing our houses?
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/02/09 02:23 AM
No, nothing like that. Mostly thinking about the way the kids are going to feel. Or I guess "projecting" is the more accurate word.

We were joking today about how easy it's going to be to fill out Emergency Contact forms for the kids, now that we won't be on planes together. Then WAW said, "Well we might get taken out in traffic during our Retrouvaille weekend."

So the idea's still in her head, at least at some level. It could have been a bone tossed to me, though I don't think so.

No, the mojo was drained when I thought about how empty things will / could seem to the kids -- Mom's closet all empty, etc.

Anyway, fired up my Theme Song a couple times, did some push-ups (hooah), went to the supermarket -- nothing like fresh produce to mojogenerate LOL (ooooo! squash!) -- and then did the end-of-day dad thing.

Totally unrelated query -- anyone out there know anything about German pistol grips for a fencing foil? Advantage/disadvantage over the Belgian? (Aside from the obvious historical snark.....)
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/02/09 12:51 PM
I'm grouchy this morning. I sat down to do the June To-Do, and there's SO MUCH carried over from March and April and May -- especially March, the first full post-bomb month. It's actually got me angry at WAW. I feel like she's stolen time from me along with everything else.

Need to rummage around in my storage boxes in the garage and find that one mojo I got in Nawlins a couple years ago. May need to go online and pick up some more.

I don't know why this didn't occur to me before -- I suppose it was because I was so deeply into the whole thing. But damn, it's like being Rip Van Winkle or something.
Posted By: The Wifey Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/02/09 01:02 PM
SP

Its ok to be grouchy. Right now I'm feeling like an A, #1 beotch.

You do a whole month's to do at once? Hmmm, I've never done that. The most I plan for is one week at a time as far as chores go. Then I break it down into days.

I could only wish my H would go to Retrouvaille. We had a chance at two different times and he wouldn't go. Take this as a positive, ok?
Posted By: Coach Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/02/09 01:23 PM
Quote:
Naval types with a historical bent will understand when I say we're still @ Battle of the Coral Sea phase here. Midway (and Stalingrad) are still a ways off...


Just make sure you are the Yorktown not the Lexington.
Posted By: mindfull Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/02/09 01:30 PM
SP - "I'll take half of whatever you got..." I may be warped, but for some reason I found that gloriously funny this am.

Superb news that she's even considering the Retxxxx weekend...

There's still a lot of fire between you two (based on your journaling). I still continue to think good thoughts on this one.

Get out the can, Oscar! You're doing superb.

If you don't want to, no biggie, just wallow in garbage, have a good tantrum, and stick your head out later, in time to work on that list!
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/02/09 02:34 PM
So you are indeed human SP...remember one foot in front of the other...you're right in the thick of it and you're doing ok. Keep going.

Grouchy seems pretty mild and manageable as well as reasonable...
Posted By: orangedog Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/02/09 09:48 PM
Now how can I get my W to hear a little hint about Retrouvaille? hmmm...
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/02/09 10:30 PM
Originally Posted By: orangedog
Now how can I get my W to hear a little hint about Retrouvaille? hmmm...


I tried dropping that hint to my W a while ago - just came across as pressure.

She probably would not be open to the idea until she is ready.
Posted By: JKL2009 Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/02/09 10:44 PM
I have already figured I need pretty clear signals before I would suggest Retrouville type stuff. LIke "ok, I have changed my mind let's make this work" type clear signals!
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 04:25 AM
Well it has been a looooonnnnng day. Not much noteworthy to report, so just some bullet point type journal updates:
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 04:58 AM
Well it has been a looooonnnnng day [so long that I messed up that previous post!]. Not much noteworthy to report, so just some quick bullet point type journal updates and a convo:

1. Saw WAW off for work this morning. "What's on your agenda?" she asked. I have a lunch, I told her. "Ooooohhh, a lunch." Clearly she assumed it was a date. It was a GAL, but not a gal, but I let her assume. Bit o' mystery won't hurt her. I didn't lie -- I DID have a lunch.

2. Later a.m. WAW called. A couple of administrative things. Then somehow transitioned into divorce talk. Initially a bit unsettling; she was all moto for the Big D (don't mean Dallas) again. *Bing*! Somehow she manages to bring my lunch into the conversation (bwah-hah-ha!).

3. Later that p.m. WAW e-mailed to inform me that she's serving me by mail tomorrow [now, now, no sympathy votes -- I knew it was coming -- it's all good], for which I thanked her for the heads-up.

4. Replied to WAW's e-mail asking when did she want to set up appointments with mediators? She replied asking why I seem to be in such a "rush" to "move the ball forward"? Re-replied that I'm not in a particular "rush" per se, but that seeing how she's expressed her feelings of being overwhelmed and not knowing which way the wind is blowing, I thought I might do what I could to help relieve some of those stressors.

5. Kid function at school tonight. We sat together, no problems, got along fine. I arrived early to grab seats and was checking the location of a fencing equipment supplier (need a new foil) and wasn't familiar with the town except by name. WAW arrived, sat down, saw me on the eye-phone. Asked her, Hey, where's Some Valley Suburb? She knew and then said, somewhat archly, "What, isn't that geographically desirable?" Huh? "Geographically desirable. I mean it's a lot closer than where you went to lunch." Again with the lunch! Clearly she thought I was planning another date! With whom, I have no idea.....

6. After kid function and kids to bed, WAW came downstairs. I'm on the sofa (right now actually) geeking on the laptop. Chit-chat-chit. Follow-up on the e-mail. I basically repeat my re-reply from earlier in the day verbatim.

WAW: "I'm only serving you because the court date is coming, and if I don't the court will call us in for me to explain why."

SP: Yeah, I get it, no worries -- I'm good.

WAW: "Once that's done, these things can, you know, languish forever."

SP: [Sticking the knife in, just a wee bit] I'm sure. But in our case we won't fiddly-fart around, will we? We need to get you situated. It's nearly 4 months. I can't keep dragging you down like this.

WAW: "True, I guess, but really I just want to get settled in my place. Just clear my head. Get these guys [kids] under control. And then..."

SP: "Then"...what?

WAW: "Then...I don't know, I mean, we talked about going to this weekend thing [ah, so now we've "talked" about Retrouvaille!]. Maybe we'll see other people. You're clearly there, what with your lunches and all" [again with the "lunch" meshugass! and now it's "lunches"! Ol' Bill's gonna laugh when I tell him we had a Man-Date today!]

SP: Of course, I mean -- that sort of goes without saying. I think my position on this is clear. By the same token [twisting the knife a skosh], you did ask me back in March to commit to being open to the possibility that you were right and that you're not the right one for me.

WAW [unconvinced]: "Yeah, I did. But still. Anyway, it's moot now."

SP: Maybe you ought to just consider some regular old, USDA choice, non-committal sex.

WAW [laughs]: "So far no one seems interested."

SP: Well I wouldn't say "no one" [winks].

WAW: "Hmmm. You know me; I can't just have sex. There's got to be a little something else there. I think that's why it got so out-of-hand with me thinking about Signore Shmuckatelli. If he'd been a stranger it never would have happened that way. But because I knew him I thought he was safe. Stupid. Now there's Former Boyfriend, and he's really being open to me, but that's not...that's like an old shoe. Nice. Comfortable. But just a nice, comfortable old shoe. Not like a spiky heel."

SP [smiling while doing that devilish one-eyebrow-up thing]: You know -- if it's spiky heels you're after you, ah, don't have to look far.

WAW laughed and went upstairs to work. I keyboarded this thing and set the coffee machine and hied myself (he wrote in the past tense though the event is in the future) to my own sleeping zone.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 12:24 PM
You know what's funny? Well, not funny ha-ha, but funny funny?

When I look at Herself, I totally see my wife. I feel love for her. I feel powerful sexual attraction for her -- more powerful, indeed, than for many many a month. I have to check the "honeys" and "sweeties" as they try to leave the mouth. When she's near me -- and she likes to do this close-physical-proximity thing, much closer than she used to before -- I have to physically restrain the arm or the hand from reaching around her or patting her bottom.

Yet simultaneously I can totally see her as my ex-wife. I can easily imagine myself with someone else.

And that disjuncture, that disconnect -- it causes me no cognitive dissonance, no pain, at all. I'm reminded of people who have near-death experiences and relate how they felt like they were floating above themselves, just watching the docs do their thing.

But that's not what's funny to me.

What's funny is what it implies for one's "done-ness." MWD writes that when Mr. or Mrs. is "done," they just ignore Future LBS. And in retrospect I could see that in WAW's behavior after around, say, Thanksgiving 08.

But either I'm not "done," or my done-ness is of a different order of magnitude, because I'm intensely interested in WAW and WAW's life (though not, I believe, in a pursuing/obsessive way, just in a curious, I like-this-person and I'm-interested-in-what-s/he-does kind of way), and I'm perfectly happy to see her and engage with her.

But neither seeing nor engaging seems -- these days, anyway (always prepared for the roller coaster to return) -- to make me any less "done" or weaken my "done-idity."

Guess what? Whatever it is, I like it.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 12:40 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson


Guess what? Whatever it is, I like it.


That's cuz you're a guy who thrives in Life's greys, SP. I envy you in a lot of ways, as God wired me more as a black-and-white guy. There's a whole lot of living in those grey areas, if you can learn to get your head (and heart!) into those spaces.

I just can't.

Puppy
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 12:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson


Guess what? Whatever it is, I like it.


That's cuz you're a guy who thrives in Life's greys, SP. I envy you in a lot of ways, as God wired me more as a black-and-white guy. There's a whole lot of living in those grey areas, if you can learn to get your head (and heart!) into those spaces.

I just can't.

Puppy


I can't either. I have to keep fighting the urge to yell "Are we married? or are we Not Married? Which is it?"
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 12:48 PM
Funny observation, PDT -- not funny ha-ha, but..... oh f*ck it! You know what I mean! crazy

I was having that PRECISE discussion with the person WAW has taken to calling my German "girlfriend" (Foreign Female Friend from my earlier threads) not 10 minutes ago.

For the loooonnnnnngggggggeeeeeeeesssssstttttt time I could ONLY function in B&W. Right or wrong. Good or evil. Yes or no. Now or never.

I think maybe the war did that in for me. Now I rather like living in The Grey.

(Though it's not on my palette, to be sure. I'm more of an Autumn. [Our lady DB friends will get that.])

@Thinker: That surprises me, given your background. Wasn't that a Life Of The Grey? Or did everything sort of change after Ivan went away?
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 02:14 PM
Grey is where most of life really happens...I've always tried to be conscious of living with the ambiguity inherent in being alive. I think sometimes we think we are doing it fairly well and get challenged in these monumental ways...death, divorce etc. Can I really thrive and love and live fully when the pieces aren't all put together?

Kudos to you SP for being able to do that. And, thanks for expressing it so well. When I feel that overwhelmed, knot in my stomach sensation, I can remind myself that it is the ambiguity taunting me, challenging me. Live with it, through it and be me regardless of what is happening.

It is interesting. Everyone around me wants an answer. What's happening with H? Is he going to come back? What are you going to do? They want definitive answers as if somehow the challenges of life would all fade away and we would drift off into happy land. There are obviously decisions that have to be made and with children there does seem to me more of a motivation to settle or resolve into some predictable normalcy. But, it is an illusion of sorts anyway.
Posted By: BobbiJo Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 02:26 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Funny observation, PDT -- not funny ha-ha, but..... oh f*ck it! You know what I mean! crazy

I was having that PRECISE discussion with the person WAW has taken to calling my German "girlfriend" (Foreign Female Friend from my earlier threads) not 10 minutes ago.

For the loooonnnnnngggggggeeeeeeeesssssstttttt time I could ONLY function in B&W. Right or wrong. Good or evil. Yes or no. Now or never.

I think maybe the war did that in for me. Now I rather like living in The Grey.

(Though it's not on my palette, to be sure. I'm more of an Autumn. [Our lady DB friends will get that.])


That was a surprise! What with your sunny disposition, one would have thought you were a summer...
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 02:26 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson

@Thinker: That surprises me, given your background. Wasn't that a Life Of The Grey? Or did everything sort of change after Ivan went away?


A strange observation. I deal with (and have fun with) immense amounts of gray ambiguity in my work, business, travels, sports, etc. I work in business startups with no guarantees of success, I like nothing better than to set off for a weekend trip with no fixed destination, the most fun games are those where half the cards are hidden, etc.

But in social interactions (where the highest amounts of gray seem to be found), I try to avoid gray as much as possible.

I think it has to do with ones level of comfort in a particular area: less comfort == more desire for B&W.
Posted By: Coach Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 02:31 PM
Quote:
That's cuz you're a guy who thrives in Life's greys, SP. I envy you in a lot of ways, as God wired me more as a black-and-white guy. There's a whole lot of living in those grey areas, if you can learn to get your head (and heart!) into those spaces.

I just can't.

Puppy


I have been there as well. Grew up in a dysfunctional home with lots of rules (especially unwritten rules), went to college at The Citadel, went into Air Force into B-52 SAC World (rules for rules), then I went in the financial advisory business - lots of rules but people don't buy on rules it's based on their heart. Rules, black and white thinking limit us. Rules, B&W thinking cause us to want to keep score, become defensive (yeah buts...) and eventually depressed. What happens if you find out you were using old rules or rules that don't apply to the sitch at hand?
Marriage, relationships and love have wide, moving and ever increasing boundaries when it's healthy.
Einstein quotes:"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
"A person starts to live when he can live outside himself."

I don't believe the B&W thinking is good for Coach at this point in my life. The two rules I go by now are:
“You shall love the Lord, your God,
with all your heart,
with all your being,
with all your strength,
and with all your mind,
and your neighbor as yourself.”

It's right there in black and white. That is full of color, boundless, healthy, fun, interesting, challenging and up to me. I think God wired me to explore that space. Didn't always think that way.
Cheers
Coach
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 03:36 PM
And some more of this Snicker Out Loud Meshugass

"Sooo, any "lunches" today?"

WAW has really been focused on this "lunch" concept the past two days. Ahhhh, it is to laugh. Ironic, no?
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 03:56 PM
Good job on the "Lunches" stuff.

I would have already broken and told my W who I had had lunch with. smirk
Posted By: JKL2009 Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 04:46 PM
I need to adopt some "lunches" into my play book and get more mysterious...
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 04:54 PM
Originally Posted By: JKL2009
I need to adopt some "lunches" into my play book and get more mysterious...


The "mysterious" part doesn't work in my sitch. Every time I go out (GAL) I get a very direct question from my W - "Who did you have lunch with?". It's asked in a very friendly way, but there is no way for me to remain mysterious without lying or just plain refusing to answer.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Originally Posted By: JKL2009
I need to adopt some "lunches" into my play book and get more mysterious...


The "mysterious" part doesn't work in my sitch. Every time I go out (GAL) I get a very direct question from my W - "Who did you have lunch with?". It's asked in a very friendly way, but there is no way for me to remain mysterious without lying or just plain refusing to answer.


Thinker, my W like yours... And, if I were to answer: "Some friends," she would press the issue...
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:06 PM
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Originally Posted By: JKL2009
I need to adopt some "lunches" into my play book and get more mysterious...


The "mysterious" part doesn't work in my sitch. Every time I go out (GAL) I get a very direct question from my W - "Who did you have lunch with?". It's asked in a very friendly way, but there is no way for me to remain mysterious without lying or just plain refusing to answer.


Thinker, my W like yours... And, if I were to answer: "Some friends," she would press the issue...



Just curious. Does this work both ways? I mean do you want, expect or get that full disclosure from your wives? I think it is reasonable in SOME sitches to straight out suggest that you give each other some privacy and since they presumably want "space" you would like to honor that and have it reciprocated.
Posted By: JKL2009 Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:06 PM
What would happen if you said it was none of her business? Or "I don't ask you everything about your activities?"
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:09 PM
The Beeeeee-Youtee of it is that all the Mystery is of WAW's own creation! All I did was say (yesterday a.m.) that I had a lunch that day. She's the one who's spent the past 24 hours constructing what that means. Love it when someone does my work for me....
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:11 PM
Quote:
if I were to answer: "Some friends," she would press the issue.


Boundaries.

"Hey hon -- back when you were my wife, that was just the kind of thing you had a right to know."
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:11 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Originally Posted By: JKL2009
I need to adopt some "lunches" into my play book and get more mysterious...


The "mysterious" part doesn't work in my sitch. Every time I go out (GAL) I get a very direct question from my W - "Who did you have lunch with?". It's asked in a very friendly way, but there is no way for me to remain mysterious without lying or just plain refusing to answer.


Thinker, my W like yours... And, if I were to answer: "Some friends," she would press the issue...



Just curious. Does this work both ways? I mean do you want, expect or get that full disclosure from your wives? I think it is reasonable in SOME sitches to straight out suggest that you give each other some privacy and since they presumably want "space" you would like to honor that and have it reciprocated.


It actually does not work both ways - and I have called my W on it several times. Maybe it has to do with our history, but she want's her privacy and does not want to talk to me about which of her friends she is meeting with and when. She tells me if I press her, but does not volunteer it and gets a bit annoyed if I ask.

Part of it has to do with her wanting her privacy more than I do.

Part of it probably also has to do with the fact that she meets with a lot more people than I do - out meeting friends, playdates, coffee hours, etc - while I am working from my home office. So my going out is a more unusual event.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:15 PM
Quote:
The "mysterious" part doesn't work in my sitch. Every time I go out (GAL) I get a very direct question from my W - "Who did you have lunch with?"


Otra vez, noch einmal, marra tanya, une plus de fois, una nuova volta: Boundaries.

"Hey hon -- back when you were my wife, that was just the kind of thing you had a right to know."
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:15 PM
Originally Posted By: JKL2009
What would happen if you said it was none of her business? Or "I don't ask you everything about your activities?"


Should NOT be snotty or aggressive. If you don't have a wife like Smileys or an H like mine (who will zealously do the work for you), you may need to be more direct in that you will be divulging less information in general. Could be tricky. There have been points where I've said, "I know you want space and I don't ask you for details as to what you are doing so I am going to expect the same for myself." More often H will ask me where I'm going, I say "out" or "out with a friend" and he'll say "boyfriend" and I'll just laugh (because it is ironic that I'm actually on my way to the library to write)...

This is sensitive stuff though. In some sitches, it is very important to convey that there is no infidelity or chance of it.
Posted By: mindfull Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:15 PM
SP - Ha!

OK, defending the WAW here... (NOT BY CHOICE), BUT, when you originally talked about "THE LUNCH," was your appearance upgraded, smelling any better, sportin' a new pair of as$ hugging jeans? I can see her creating that scenario if so.

IF NOT, I still say... the fire's still there, and she's finding her own way not to like the potential of you checking someone else out. (oddly worded, but you get the drift)

MY OPINION.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:25 PM
Quote:
as$ hugging jeans


LOL!!!! That'd do the trick! Sorry, I just picture imaginary smiley man reeking of cologne, wearing "as$ hugging jeans," sporting the fonzy walk and wondering why the W thinks something might be up!!!

I'd bet on your latter scenario.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:33 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Quote:
if I were to answer: "Some friends," she would press the issue.


Boundaries.

"Hey hon -- back when you were my wife, that was just the kind of thing you had a right to know."


Ah, easier said than done, as it involves moving deeply into that gray area... She is at one end of the scale "we're psychologically separated", and I'm at the other... "well, okay, but we are still married," so in that paradigm, it's hard for me not to be truthful... What is "blocking" me from answering that way, I think, is "feeling" that it means I accept her premise... Which, perhaps I have to...

A&K, there is a significant double-standard in our sitch, not just with respect to this matter, but others; pre-bomb, I typically would not have pressed her (though that streak was broken when affair(s) came to light and when any resistance was no longer seen as a need for privacy, but rather a possible cover-up). We never got to the stage of full-transparency and non-contact to see we could get back to a place of normalcy where each of us could honor each other's need for some privacy.
Posted By: mindfull Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 05:33 PM
FONZY WALK! Hahahaha

"Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!"
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 06:03 PM
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Quote:
if I were to answer: "Some friends," she would press the issue.


Boundaries.

"Hey hon -- back when you were my wife, that was just the kind of thing you had a right to know."


Ah, easier said than done, as it involves moving deeply into that gray area... She is at one end of the scale "we're psychologically separated", and I'm at the other... "well, okay, but we are still married," so in that paradigm, it's hard for me not to be truthful... What is "blocking" me from answering that way, I think, is "feeling" that it means I accept her premise... Which, perhaps I have to...

A&K, there is a significant double-standard in our sitch, not just with respect to this matter, but others; pre-bomb, I typically would not have pressed her (though that streak was broken when affair(s) came to light and when any resistance was no longer seen as a need for privacy, but rather a possible cover-up). We never got to the stage of full-transparency and non-contact to see we could get back to a place of normalcy where each of us could honor each other's need for some privacy.


Ok, Smileys is too much for your sitch IMO. Although, you never know. I once referred to "when we were married" with H and he said what do you mean "were married?" WTF??? Anyway, I think you should just do it. Start going out. When she asks where you are going, tell her "out with some friends" and leave immediately. If she calls, don't answer. If she grills you later. "You know, I don't really know everything you are doing and that is ok but I kind of want to have a little space myself too." This is all contingent upon you being ready. Stop being afraid. You said you don't have transparency anyway. So acknowledge that. There is only a double standard if you make one.

I don't know your sitch well enough and I am frankly too much of a mess myself to be directing anyone but, what is your impression of your R? Is W doing her own thing? If so, "Ok W, I get it and I will respect that and I am going to do my own thing as well."

You have a "need for privacy" now. IMO.

Seriously though, this is just IMO. And, as a woman, I'm telling you, I doubt she will respect you if you don't GAL. However, don't go apesh*t with it. Don't do the Fonzy thing. Don't be provocative. Just live. And, be your super awesome best listening attentive self when you are in her company and then back to all of those things you have to do. We are all in this and know how and why it feels scary to detach. I've been flailing for months. But, bit by bit.

And, I think I have done WAY better than I gave myself credit for looking back at how quickly I started to GAL and set boundaries post-bomb. The WAS will sometimes F with that, probe, taunt, intimidate etc. but, you can do it.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 06:11 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
When I look at Herself, I totally see my wife. I feel love for her. I feel powerful sexual attraction for her -- more powerful, indeed, than for many many a month. I have to check the "honeys" and "sweeties" as they try to leave the mouth. When she's near me -- and she likes to do this close-physical-proximity thing, much closer than she used to before -- I have to physically restrain the arm or the hand from reaching around her or patting her bottom.

Yet simultaneously I can totally see her as my ex-wife. I can easily imagine myself with someone else.

And that disjuncture, that disconnect -- it causes me no cognitive dissonance, no pain, at all. I'm reminded of people who have near-death experiences and relate how they felt like they were floating above themselves, just watching the docs do their thing.


That's how I feel too. Sure I'd love to rebuild the marriage but I don't want to hinge the rest of my self around it and I won't. The door's open if you want to come back.

It's like the scene you mentioned from Band of Brothers; "Until you accept the fact that you're already dead, you can't do your job as a soldier." Or Jim Collin's conversation with Adm Jim Stockdale in "Good to Great":



I didn’t say anything for many minutes, and we continued the slow walk toward the faculty club, Stockdale limping and arc-swinging his stiff leg that had never fully recovered from repeated torture. Finally, after about a hundred meters of silence, I asked, “Who didn’t make it out?”

“Oh, that’s easy,” he said. “The optimists.”

“The optimists? I don’t understand,” I said, now completely confused, given what he’d said a hundred meters earlier.

“The optimists. Oh, they were the ones who said, ‘We’re going to be out by Christmas.’ And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they’d say,‘We’re going to be out by Easter.’ And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart.”

Another long pause, and more walking. Then he turned to me and said, “This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”

To this day, I carry a mental image of Stockdale admonishing the optimists: “We’re not getting out by Christmas; deal with it!”



It's so much easier once you "deal with it".
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 06:17 PM
Originally Posted By: orangedog
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
When I look at Herself, I totally see my wife. I feel love for her. I feel powerful sexual attraction for her -- more powerful, indeed, than for many many a month. I have to check the "honeys" and "sweeties" as they try to leave the mouth. When she's near me -- and she likes to do this close-physical-proximity thing, much closer than she used to before -- I have to physically restrain the arm or the hand from reaching around her or patting her bottom.

Yet simultaneously I can totally see her as my ex-wife. I can easily imagine myself with someone else.

And that disjuncture, that disconnect -- it causes me no cognitive dissonance, no pain, at all. I'm reminded of people who have near-death experiences and relate how they felt like they were floating above themselves, just watching the docs do their thing.


That's how I feel too. Sure I'd love to rebuild the marriage but I don't want to hinge the rest of my self around it and I won't. The door's open if you want to come back.

It's like the scene you mentioned from Band of Brothers; "Until you accept the fact that you're already dead, you can't do your job as a soldier." Or Jim Collin's conversation with Adm Jim Stockdale in "Good to Great":



I didn’t say anything for many minutes, and we continued the slow walk toward the faculty club, Stockdale limping and arc-swinging his stiff leg that had never fully recovered from repeated torture. Finally, after about a hundred meters of silence, I asked, “Who didn’t make it out?”

“Oh, that’s easy,” he said. “The optimists.”

“The optimists? I don’t understand,” I said, now completely confused, given what he’d said a hundred meters earlier.

“The optimists. Oh, they were the ones who said, ‘We’re going to be out by Christmas.’ And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they’d say,‘We’re going to be out by Easter.’ And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart.”

Another long pause, and more walking. Then he turned to me and said, “This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”

To this day, I carry a mental image of Stockdale admonishing the optimists: “We’re not getting out by Christmas; deal with it!”



It's so much easier once you "deal with it".


cry

got to "walk the line"...
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 06:18 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Quote:
if I were to answer: "Some friends," she would press the issue.


Boundaries.

"Hey hon -- back when you were my wife, that was just the kind of thing you had a right to know."


whistle whistle whistle
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/03/09 06:19 PM
@mindblank
Quote:
OK, defending the WAW here... (NOT BY CHOICE), BUT, when you originally talked about "THE LUNCH," was your appearance upgraded, smelling any better, sportin' a new pair of as$ hugging jeans? I can see her creating that scenario if so.


Better than that. Much, much better. In my robe, with severe bed-head, unshaved, with a pair of headphones around my neck (it was 6 in the morning, and I'd been up for 3 hours working).

Pretty effin' hot, eh? laugh
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 12:57 AM
WELL the mailman came today and brought my Special Letter! Stop, oh yeah, waitaminnit Mr. Postman -- wa-ay-ay-ayyyyyit Mr. Postman! Oh Mr. Postman, look and see, if there's a letter in your bag for me....

But the best part is that there's apparently some kind of Big Dumb Loser mailing list that I'm now on, and lots and lots of attorneys who -- I'm sure -- are deeply and sincerely concerned with my emotional well-being in this "time of trouble" are gallantly volunteering to help me through my struggle....

Ambulance, meet Chaser!

LO-freaking-L!
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 01:01 AM
Yo SP. Translation??? You got D papers and how do you feel about it?
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 01:09 AM
I feel fine! I mean, I knew they were coming today -- WAW warned me, oh, yesterday or the day before. And it's not the settlement stuff - The Divorce Papers - but just my acknowledgment of the filing (whatever you call that).

What I find most enjoyable is how I'm suddenly the most popular kid in school -- at least among the divorce lawyers!

But you know what they say: If a town has one lawyer, he'll starve; but if it has two, they'll eat for a lifetime!
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 01:31 AM
Am I the only one who keeps waiting for the other shoe to drop??

(looks around) confused

Puppy
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 02:05 AM
Maybe. I'm not waiting. If it drops, it drops.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 03:17 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Maybe. I'm not waiting. If it drops, it drops.


They're your shoes,not hers. You're going to be fine.
Posted By: fb2 Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 03:25 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
WELL the mailman came today and brought my Special Letter!
She saved 50 bucks vs. getting a "process server" a.k.a "thug".
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 03:37 AM
Hey SP- Coffee would be cool but there's no PM on this site...so, how does that work?
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 04:12 AM
Quote:
She saved 50 bucks vs. getting a "process server" a.k.a "thug".


At least that much. But again -- I knew it was coming today; she told me so. It's no biggie -- just a routine part of Ye Old Dissolution Proceedings (Theodoric of York, Medieval Lawyer).

Frankly, I find the sharks circling in the water to be the most enjoyable part of it.

Dear Mr., Mrs. or Ms. Smiley's Person:

In no way is this form letter a form letter generated by a form letter generator to (circle one) [dissolution respondents / petitioners / felons / assorted miscreants]. We are here to [help / assist / oversee / pursue] you in your time of trouble. We will gladly [counter-sue / appeal / drain your bank account] during this, your hour of need....
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 04:14 AM
Quote:
Hey SP- Coffee would be cool but there's no PM on this site...so, how does that work?


I shall have to brood upon this question while La Moja continues to brew up this fine mojo she's got working.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 04:25 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
It's no biggie -- just a routine part of Ye Old Dissolution Proceedings (Theodoric of York, Medieval Lawyer).


And the line, "What this man needs is a good bloodletting!" works in this sketch too.

Sorry to hear about the paperwork Smiley.
Posted By: pollyanna Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 04:28 AM

Quote:
Am I the only one who keeps waiting for the other shoe to drop??



Nah puppy I have been waiting a while. Seems he gets close to feelings and then backs off , or builds another wall. Me thinks this man will carry baggage and never learn the gift of a lesson he is being presented.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 11:30 AM
Of course, an alternate interpretation might work too, polly.

I think even you would acknowledge that it is possible for one to actually not be bothered by the receipt of divorce paperwork that he knew was coming; to actually have accepted the idea of being divorced; to actually be prepared -- indeed, in many respects eager -- to move on to the next woman (or, preferably, women); and to recognize -- to embrace -- the reality that NOTHING will bring a Walkaway back except Walkaway's own choice and that one has NO POWER WHATSOEVER over Walkaway's choices.

And that it is possible that all of these things are indeed the "lessons" to which you refer.

I look at it this way -- if I considered my spouse to be an enemy or a b*tch or an a**hole for leaving me, why would I want to waste a moment's time or energy pining away for her or him? Every hour, every minute, every second I spend thinking about my enemy is an hour, a minute, a second that I'm closer to the grave. Is that really the best use of my time? Give it a rest, already. Let it go. Embrace the Spiers Doctrine:

"You know why you hid in that ditch, Blithe? You hid in that ditch because you think there's still hope. But Blithe, the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier should function."
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 11:53 AM
Cap'n's Log, Star Date 2009 point 06-04.

WAW is going out-of-town this weekend (another of her can't-take-the-stress escapes, though the stress is entirely self-generated [guilt re: the kids, I suspect]). So we're down to two weekends left of co-habitation -- 12-14, which is the weekend of Kid D-bomb (and, coincidentally, the "anniversary" of my D-bomb) -- and the weekend that follows. After that she's "on her own," as she likes to say.

The list of things to be done in the next 14 or so lengthens by the minute. WAW has already changed her address on the (her) bills and etc.; got utilities going; is getting the cable and the internet set up on the 9th (when she wants me to pay a visit to her new home -- oh, by the way, could you "show me" [WAW-speak for "could you do"] how to connect the WiFi?); bought beds for the kids; and is getting the painters in. She'll take the kids shopping for bed linens and paint colors for their bedrooms next weekend, and they'll start helping her move in so that they get used to the idea.

On my end I've started budget record-keeping and now need to (a) clean this pigsty of an office and (b) start working a more robust time-management program -- way behind on 3 projects that need attention. Agenda for this coming WAW-free weekend is to get the garage cleaned out to help WAW get her things loaded on the truck and to sort out what stays, what goes, and what goes into a dumpster. Which reminds me -- need to call to have a dumpster delivered.

The kids and I are going to the hardware store today to look at paint samples. I'll start with their rooms, then the family room and kitchen. I think come fall I'll re-do the office.

Big question is what to do with the living room now that Herself is taking all the furniture out? Pool tables are expensive and S9 would like nothing more than to destroy the felt. Air hockey? Ping pong? Not pressing, but fun to think about.

Ran into Hot Mom at school yesterday. Hmmmmmm. Might be possibilities.

Apparently I have a new ally in the divorce-busting campaign -- WAW's Divorced BFF. Initially (Thread 1 or 2) I suspected DBFF of being Enabling Girlfriend, but as it happens EG turned out to be a co-worker. DBFF has come up in several convos recently -- always introduced by WAW -- in terms of discussing how much she loves me (in the non-"love" sense of the term, obviously) and how happy she'd be if WAW and I reconciled. Last night the subject was DBFF's phone call reporting a dream she had that Herself and I got back together.

All very curious indeed. WAW has mentioned the "getting back together" and/or Retrouvaille concept at least a half-dozen times since last weekend. I think the Looming Reality of her move-out is really...um...looming. D*mn -- ran out of adjectives!
Posted By: SmileysPerson A Random Query - 06/04/09 12:06 PM
One of my GAL activities is to start freelancing as a writer/editor to earn some extra buckskies and because it's something I always wanted to do and never had the courage to do (though WAW, to her credit, always encouraged it).

I know some of the DB'ers are small business-folk, so my random query (better directed to a lawyer, I know) is this: What's up with d/b/a? Separate checking account? Separate credit card? Etc.

(Yes, I know it seems incongruous -- how could someone who writes books not have the courage to freelance? Different game, different rules. Professional writing -- that is, writing for my profession -- I "get." Just hanging it out there is WAS scary.)
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 12:39 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson


Dear Mr., Mrs. or Ms. Smiley's Person:

In no way is this form letter a form letter generated by a form letter generator to (circle one) [dissolution respondents / petitioners / felons / assorted miscreants]. We are here to [help / assist / oversee / pursue] you in your time of trouble. We will gladly [counter-sue / appeal / drain your bank account] during this, your hour of need....


LMFAO!!!! laugh laugh laugh
Posted By: mindfull Re: A Random Query - 06/04/09 12:45 PM
SP -

Here's something I can actually help you with, instead of the usual, casual zingers and off-the-cuff humor!!

I've done a ton of this kind of stuff (call it contract work, freelancing, etc...).

I've done it two ways; under a d/b/a, and just being paid as a 1099 personally. The d/b/a situation was (mostly) me working with another person on a project, contracted by a company, but it was sometimes me working independently on a project, contracted by a company. The 1099 work was always me working dependently on a project, contracted by a company.

When we did the contract work under a d/b/a, we had a separate d/b/s checking account and credit card, and filed separate tax returns. When I did it as a 1099, I did NOT have a separate checking account or credit card, as it was personal income and personal expenditures (as they relate to the project).

It's funny, I can't balance a family checkbook, but I will ALWAYS (ok, maybe not ALWAYS) be right when it comes to business income, expenditures, etc... It's very important, BEFORE you accept any work (or solicit any, for that matter), to have your "freelance template of tools" ready (ie, proposal form, e-letterhead, blank invoice, maybe even a "placeholder" web-site, etc...), as it just pulls everything together, and makes you a package, not just a contracted vendor. Contracted vendors tend to come and go often, whereas a package makes you real.

My input! Any questions... just ask!

I've done really well with this.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: A Random Query - 06/04/09 01:39 PM
@mindblank, you're a dream! Insofar as the 1099 goes, have you ever had any problem with "commingling" those funds with your personal funds? For example, I have a dedicated home office -- it's just an office. I understand that I can deduct some percentage of it from my taxes (vis-a-vis, mortgage), along with computers and what-not. Is that feasible with the 1099 strategy, which seems easier, or does that require a separate corporate identity (i.e., d/b/a)?

And by the way -- your casual, off-the-cuff zingers and what-not ALWAYS help!
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: A Random Query - 06/04/09 01:41 PM
Dear Mr. Puppy Dog Tails:

Thank you for your recent [LMFAO / WTF / 2x4]. We here at Smiley's Person are always [glad / reluctant / annoyed] to hear from [posters / DB'ers / Walkaways / bored guys in Florida]. Please be assured we will give your comments [due attention / serious thought / to the dog].


smile
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: A Random Query - 06/04/09 01:44 PM
You can just call me "P-dawg." All my homies do. cool
Posted By: mindfull Re: A Random Query - 06/04/09 02:10 PM
SP -

I'll ask H about the dedicated home office w/my 1099 situation vs. as a d/b/a, as he has a dedicated home office, as well (w/a d/b/a), and he handles the tax stuff! Our tax guy may be calling me this am, as well. If so, I'll ask him directly.

One thing that sticks out in my mind re: dedicated home office and taxes, is that it really amounts to pennies saved, in relation to time invested to figure out how much you're saving.

Another thing that sticks out is having to make sure you're not "covering" your home office, services required to run it, ancillary tools, etc... on invoices for the services you're providing. (Seems obvious, but the cross over at one point was more effort to figure out than worth.)

Also, I think (in IL) it cost us a little over $5k to set-up the d/b/a.

More to come as I think of it...

Not sure how I'd get the stuff to you, but I have all of the "templates" I wrote about earlier... No need to recreate the wheel! Just change the names and logos (if appropriate)!
Posted By: orangedog Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 06:15 PM
SP. Sounds like you and I have a similar recipe:

Here's my version.

Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Give it a rest, already. Let it go. Embrace the Spiers Doctrine:

"You know why you hid in that ditch, Blithe? You hid in that ditch because you think there's still hope. But Blithe, the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier should function."




Now add some Stockdale:

When Collins asked who didn't make it out, Stockdale replied:

"Oh, that’s easy, the optimists. Oh, they were the ones who said, 'We're going to be out by Christmas.' And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they'd say, 'We're going to be out by Easter.' And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart."


We're not getting out by Christmas. Deal with it.



and finally

In my earlier years 0.9beta (East Asian studies, Japanese Language) I watched a lot of Kurosawa. One film stuck with me more than any Toshiro Mifune sword-fu, or the epic battle scenes from Ran; a film calld "Ikiru" ("To live").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikiru

A hopeless city hall paper-pusher learns he has only months to live. His remaining family has already checked out of his life. His job is a joke. What's left? He dumps the bitter bureaucrat act, and does one good thing with his remaining life. He fights city hall and builds a childrens' playground.

Two scenes are burned in my memory.

The opener: Visual of an xray in a doctor's office with a voice over, "Our story isn't about this man. He's already dead. Our story is about the man he becomes."

Final shot: Kids playing in playground. Our man is sitting on a swing slowly rocking back and forth. Big smile. Tears flowing down his face.

The moral of the story. Once he "died" and lost the bitterness he finally "lived".

--


Seriously. Let it go. "And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function."

Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 06:36 PM
OrangeDog!!

Thanks for that - something clicked when I read it...

I realized that letting go is exactly what I need to do. It is obvious, but I had not seen it because I kept saying "but I am not getting D'd yet. My W is not leaving (yet), so I can't just say 'It's already over'"

What I didn't realize until this mental "click" is that although the M is still alive on life support, that is not what I have to let go of.

I have been holding onto the concept, the belief, in a close, intimate, mutual R that I have always believed existed. But that R died 2 years ago! It's gone! It's already dead!

All that is left is a strained friendship with a woman with whom I happen to share a history, 3 children and a lot of financial responsibilities.

I kept convincing myself that since the M and the friendship still exist that the other part, the romantic R, still exists somewhere as well. I have been holding on to, missing, grasping for, building expectations around the part of the R that is gone! gone! gone!

Let it go!

(Oh, and on a strange note: that "Friend" just called from work and asked me out to dinner tonight... crazy )
----

Thanks OD and SP!
Posted By: orangedog Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 09:29 PM
The only part I've still struggled with is whether I should still wear my wedding band. I feel naked without it. But if I truly want to detach then I should either move it to my other hand or take it off completely. (W lost her's a few years ago but probably wouldn't be wearing it anyway).
Posted By: fb2 Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/04/09 09:54 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Insofar as the 1099 goes, have you ever had any problem with "commingling" those funds with your personal funds? For example, I have a dedicated home office -- it's just an office. I understand that I can deduct some percentage of it from my taxes (vis-a-vis, mortgage), along with computers and what-not. Is that feasible with the 1099 strategy, which seems easier, or does that require a separate corporate identity (i.e., d/b/a)?
You can co-mingle funds. Keep all receipts for "business expenses" - computer, office supplies, eating out, etc. You can deduct office area as a % the whole house mortgage, utilities, etc. - but it gets a bit hairy if the office is an integral part of the house and if/when you sell the house you may have to depreciate the cost-basis according to what you have deducted - may not be worth it considering these potential complications. No need of the Dilbert ID. As long as you are operating on a small scale you don't need to get too formal. I'm not a tax guy but I did just this over a period of several years when I was "consulting".
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/05/09 12:29 AM
Thanks for the tips fb2!

Well this dissolution paperwork is slightly more complicated than it first appeared to be. Apparently I have to sort of counter-sue; on her form, for example, WAW asked that the court give up its power to assign spousal support and that I pay attorneys' fees. Chyeah right! As if! Not! Party on Wayne!

So on mine I have to do the reverse. The kicker is what grounds I choose - I'm toying with checking the "I reject" WAW's claim of irreconcileable differences. In its practical sense it has no effect, but I sort of like the symbolic aspect.

So tired; ran 6.5 miles today. Feeling about a quart low on mojo.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/05/09 12:41 AM
Quote:
Feeling about a quart low on mojo.


Come on. You're the leader of the pack here! People are sending newbies over to check you out. No pressure.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/05/09 12:51 AM
Well you see this is a very instructive lesson - never take your mojo for granted! It must be replenished at regular intervals, and shares with oil a vital characteristic: it is geographically specific. Each person's mojo is inside them and that's the only place it can be found so keeping that in mind is essential.

And just as essential is this - no one can take your mojo without your permission. Now you may not be conscious of the fact that you're giving them permission, but you are.

So, Grasshoppers - focus on your mojo, so that your DB kung-fu can defeat WAS's walkaway powers.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/05/09 12:55 AM
Ummm...you do have an attorney, right? What does he/she advise?

Seriously, checking the box just for fun is kinda like joking with the Highway Patrol officer who just pulled you over. It just doesn't work.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4358835060353125392
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/05/09 01:03 AM
Originally Posted By: orangedog
Ummm...you do have an attorney, right? What does he/she advise?

Seriously, checking the box just for fun is kinda like joking with the Highway Patrol officer who just pulled you over. It just doesn't work.



Yeah, I was gonna say . . .
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/05/09 01:07 AM
Naturally! Just goofin' - I mean c'mon, if you can't have fun during your divorce, when CAN you have fun?
Posted By: mindfull Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/05/09 01:37 AM
SP - FB2's elaboration of the dedicated home office stuff is what I was talking about (pennies for a ton of work/time).
Posted By: mindfull Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/05/09 01:41 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson

I'm toying with checking the "I reject" WAW's claim of irreconcileable differences. In its practical sense it has no effect, but I sort of like the symbolic aspect.


SP, Ha! I think, instead of "checking it off," you should cover the box in red lips(stick)!
Posted By: Gypsy Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 03:49 AM
Hi wink Person,

Lawyers are suggested even with a mediator so you have another set of 'legal' eyes to make sure you're protected. Your wife's suggestion of you paying legal fees is one such thing. In most states there is a basic breakout.

Is it a mojo deal breaker if you write from the heart rather than the mind? That's presupposing on my part.. yet my mind wandered.. your posts are entertaining, even with downturns it ends with a smile.

*hugs*
Posted By: mindfull Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 04:07 AM
What Gypsy said...
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 04:12 AM
I have two responses: first, if you look at the threads from March and April, you'll see lots of commentary about how heartfelt the posts are; second, what's the basis for assuming that Head and Heart are on different sheets of music?
Posted By: mindfull Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 04:15 AM
I'm enjoying the entertainment... just worry about your heart...
Posted By: fb2 Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 04:25 AM
The WAW often asks for 99% custody of the kids, the house, the car, alimony, your retirement and their lawyer's fees. This is in the hope that you'd be so broken that you will not respond letting them walkaway with the entire store. In reality the court usually puts a line down the middle just to get rid of you as soon as possible. You can either claim "irreconcilable" differences or her "insanity". Retain the best lawyer in your coastal town; once you do this then try a lawyer/mediator and use the retained L as backup while you coast along to D and rack up legal costs. There's very likely a plan in Mrs SP's head to replace you ASAP if she hasn't already got someone in mind. Sometimes you may have a full tank of Mojo one day only the find out a dark truth and then you run on empty for a while.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 04:28 AM
On that note, SP, my relative is one of the biggest D Lawyers in town...just in case.
Posted By: orangedog Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 05:33 AM
Originally Posted By: fb2
The WAW often asks for 99% custody of the kids, the house, the car, alimony, your retirement and their lawyer's fees.


What does it mean if WAW offers a fair settlement right off the bat? I had my L (a mediator) look at my W's proposal and he said it was very fair. In fact he said, "You guys are starting off where I usually finish." Just a few little points here and there. BTW W is a lawyer (workers comp) and I work in media (yeah O'Dog don't do law - talk to my Man). Anyway we put away the papers weeks ago and haven't talked about it since but W knows I'm prepared to talk business if that's what it comes to. W said she wanted everything to be fair and it was.

The legal process doesn't have to be adversarial. Keep a leash on your pit bull. Talk with W about what you both generally want then have some L's work it up. The more you agree, the less $ they take.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 11:17 AM
Hey smile Person..

You can do whatever you want.. which is the beauty of this board, of life. Folks do what they need to make it work.

In a few days your children are going to hear something painful that will change their world, that will shred their hearts and sense of security in this life they've always taken for granted. It may possibly be one of the most agonizing days in your life.

Mojo is great. Being able to find humor while walking a difficult path is great. Heck.. I did that, too. No matter how bad it was, I always found something that was good.

Honesty of feelings, writing what was true within, opening the door kept closed were basics in a writers group I was in. You have a beautiful gift and can choose how to use it.

In answer to your question... the best defense (aside from humor) is a good offense.

*hugs*

Is your wife looking for someone who knows all the answers or ... ?

What are you looking for? Listen to that little voice within. What does your bullsh*t meter say?
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 12:27 PM
@fb2: Naahhhhhhh. We're all about the 50/50 basically, except where the kids are concerned (60/40 in my favor, owing to differences in work schedules) and WAW's separate property (which I have no beef about -- she inherited it from deceased grands and parents and shares it with her sister). WAW's pretty cheesed-off about spousal support -- big philosophical debate that is, "of course," completely NOT about the fact that she has to pay it wink

But otherwise we're much more aligned with o'dog's way -- very non-adversarial. My lawyer consult will simply be to explain things in a way my puny brain can understand.

@alive -- thanks for the tip. We'll talk. A L-friend recommended I see Lawyer Guy. Who turns out to be Divorce-Lawyer-to-the-Stars. Which I think is reaching a bit. I didn't make $40 million for my last film. Come to think of it, I didn't make a million for my last film. Come to think of it, I don't HAVE a last film. Dammit! I KNEW I did something wrong.... smile

@Gypsy -- oddly enough, you were one of the people who commended me on the openness and emotional heartfeltedness of my earlier posts confused

You're right, though -- kid d-bomb will be hellacious, and I'm sure there will be no small amount of Smiley's Person bemoaning the fates come that day.

I will say that many, many people in my life have proposed that my humor -- for lack of a better term -- is a "defense mechanism." Somewhere up-thread(s), either @fb2 or @Forrest Gump termed it "whistling past the graveyard." It's been referred to / criticized / attacked / applauded as snark, wit, avoidance, disrespect, attitude, a warped vision, you-name-it.

When I went to Big Midwestern City and reconnected with old friends from high school after 30 years, it absolutely came up time and again -- Ohmigod! Smiley's Person! I can't believe it! You look great! (where "great" is a codeword for "thank god he looks older than I do!") I remember how you were always joking!

When I first went into therapy, I brought this issue up, because I'm pretty much like I am here in there. And since the D-bomb I've revisited it with my shrink, not just because of comments like the ones here on the boards, but because I was worried that maybe I was too silly to take my M seriously and that's what helped mess it up.

A couple weeks ago my therapist laughed really loudly at something I said -- so much so that his receptionist/aide, who was shocked at this breach in decorum, knocked on the door to see if everything was okay -- finally caught his breath and said, "You know, I don't think this is a defense -- I think you're just really a funny guy with a really unique perspective. Consider yourself fortunate. And go into comedy writing."

So take it for what it's worth.

Folk hereabout seem to be confusing my mojo with avoidance. Do I hurt inside? Of course I do. Do I feel fear? Of course I do.

One example -- as I mentioned up-thread, WAW is really into this close-physical-proximity thing these days, which I can't figure out. So much so, in fact, that last night I had to consciously move away from her. So, like, um, whazzapwitdat? Is it a taunt? Is it a test? Is she inviting me to make a Schnarch-like move and "do" her? (Ohhhhhhh, put THOSE thoughts out of yer mind, Person!) She was always "personal space, personal space!" (Maybe it's one of HER 180s?)

So that kind of thing happens, and I get all conflicted (see @Thinker's discussion in his thread).

And we're acting nice with each other, and smiling, and (follow the links if you want) it's almost like Old Times . And that's hard -- for all the reasons so many DB'ers, and especially (recently) @Thinker, have discussed here. Bill Evans' recording of "My Foolish Heart" can still bring me to my knees. And I still can't -- may never be able to -- listen to what was one of my absolutely favorite tracks, Miles Davis' recording of "My Funny Valentine" .

But all of that notwithstanding, I understand that I have to move forward, shark-like, that if I stop I will perish.

So the mojo isn't about denying the Truth. It's about overcoming the Truth. It's about (again, I like the gerund) the Letting Go.

Let me appeal here to our Christian friends. One fine Iraq morning I was chatting with our battalion chaplain in The Smoking Pit, an area we'd set aside for gum-flapping, rag-chewing, spleen-venting, and nicotine-consumption, and Dago Red mentioned that, his beatific nature to the contrary notwithstanding, Jesus didn't seek to die on the cross for the sins of man. On the Mount of Olives before his trial and conviction, he asks that the cup be taken from him but, if not, he'll suck it up and drive on. That's mojo.

Now by no means -- Heathen I may be -- am I comparing myself to Jesus. What I'm suggesting is that this idea, that mojo is about The Overcoming, The Acceptance, is not unique to me.
Posted By: Thinker Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 01:24 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson

One example -- as I mentioned up-thread, WAW is really into this close-physical-proximity thing these days, which I can't figure out. So much so, in fact, that last night I had to consciously move away from her. So, like, um, whazzapwitdat? Is it a taunt? Is it a test? Is she inviting me to make a Schnarch-like move and "do" her? (Ohhhhhhh, put THOSE thoughts out of yer mind, Person!) She was always "personal space, personal space!" (Maybe it's one of HER 180s?)

So that kind of thing happens, and I get all conflicted (see @Thinker's discussion in his thread).


OMG Nothing sucks the Mojo out of you like close proximity to a friendly, smiling WAW! crazy crazy crazy
Posted By: mindfull Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 01:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
OMG Nothing sucks the Mojo out of you like close proximity to a friendly, smiling WAW! crazy crazy crazy


Booooooooooooooooooing! LMAO
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 02:29 PM
Jeez SP- I wonder if this is the most imperfect time to take a closer look at this or the most perfect...it'll be your call.

I was "personal space" lady in my R. The relentless, charming, revered sense of humor that H possessed and that every one but me seemed to appreciate, ultimately helped to polarize H and I to an extent that will likely prove terminal. I felt so lonely in my soberness. It was as if the emotional burden was mine and he was entitled to this lightness and levity. I was playing off of him. It wasn't even "me" it was what had to be done to TCB. And he would chide me for it. "What happened to your sense of humor?" and "You used to laugh, now you're like an old lady." And he didn't think enough to digest (even when I told him as much) that he had something to do with it. And the worst part, other women apparently LOVED it and he let me know that. Tons of friends (some whom I really like and respect), they love it. So, what was MY problem. How about, that I knew H was actually depressed? How about that I needed him to be the sober one sometimes and make the space for me to breathe with him quietly. I didn't want to shower with him (even after sex), why? I don't seem to mind it now at all. Because, he was the overwhelming energy sucking, attention seeking, star of the show and it felt more peaceful to get away from him despite how much I loved him. And now that he is gone, when he is around, of course, come a little closer, let me feel YOU near me and see if I can feel peaceful and safe and respected...I don't think it is a conscious test but it is a test none the less.

Maybe your real mojo is just to be able to look at her (not in a creepy way) but just stillness, you're not running the show, you're just being you. When H settles down with me, oh my, I feel I could ML, shower with him, grow old together. But, he's so busy being "super cultured, interesting, important, funny, nothing will bring me down guy."

SP- I think maybe this comes up on the approach of "talk to the kids day" because you may want to consider curbing it on the quips. Just really being there. And don't make it easier for W or back her up in any disingenuous way but really, your kids, while they need to know everything will be ok, IMO (having lived with D and death as a child), they need to know you "get it" that they are not alone in their experience. I mean, so many people say "if you're happy, the kids will be happy." It is BS, even statistics have shown it. How does it feel to have your world crumble and have everyone just gloss over it and skip off? I take a different approach, this is hard and it hurts and we'll get through it. I DO NOT mean to suggest that you would make jokes or gloss over. I don't have a clue or know you well enough to make such a suggestion. I am just trying to drive home that now is your chance to be really real, to be the pillar in your family, to be very still and very present and exhibit to your children how ok it is to feel.

Sorry for the lecture. I think there is something here. Maybe you picked a woman who just cannot appreciate the glory of you enough. That is what H thinks of me and so do some of his friends. But, in all likelihood, he will just go on to knock the socks off another woman who within a couple years will be worn out.

What is your mojo really about? What is different about you now since bomb dropped? Take stock.
Posted By: Coach Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/05/09 02:48 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Naturally! Just goofin' - I mean c'mon, if you can't have fun during your divorce, when CAN you have fun?


Divorce Busting Book - $12.99

Wardrobe Update - $200

D Attorney Initial Retainer - $5000

The ability to make a funny when your world is crashing down - Priceless
Posted By: SmileysPerson In Silence Is My Strength? - 06/05/09 02:51 PM
Quote:
Maybe your real mojo is just to be able to look at her (not in a creepy way) but just stillness, you're not running the show, you're just being you.


But I am very still with her. But even in stillness funny stuff comes out. Hell, half the time it comes out before I'm even aware of it. Example -- we were out one night with a bunch of friends, all roughly the same age, at a restaurant. Some cheezy, Vangelis-like elevator music comes on. You could sort of see everyone pick up on it and listen a bit. Before I knew it, the words "All Skate!" came out of my mouth -- and everyone cracked up. Except me -- I wasn't even aware I'd said it for a couple beats. Just the way my brain is wired.

WAW's "personal space" thing has always -- and from Day One back when Reagan was president -- been about her mantra: "I don't need no clinging vines." The other day she mentioned that, initially, it was really weird to sleep alone. Now she adores it. Doesn't think she'll ever sleep with anyone (i.e., in the arms of Morpheus and not the "sex" euphemism) ever again. Even in the best of M times, she hated post-coital holding, didn't like it if I slept with my arm on/around her, etc.

Quote:
don't make it easier for W or back her up in any disingenuous way


No, we discussed this. I told her she was going to do the explaining, that I would be there, that I would answer the kids' questions, that I wouldn't undermine WAW or fight with her, but that I categorically would not lie if the kids ask this or that. Which she didn't like. But which she accepted (after admittedly trying to weasel out of it a bit).

Quote:
Maybe you picked a woman who just cannot appreciate the glory of you enough.


Or maybe I just wasn't glorious enough? Or not living up to my glory?

At no point in any of my threads have I said or even intimated that this isn't my fault.

Maybe WAW is just a tough crowd....
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: In Silence Is My Strength? - 06/05/09 02:58 PM
Quote:
At no point in any of my threads have I said or even intimated that this isn't my fault.

Maybe WAW is just a tough crowd....


We tend to attract people who challenge us. Haven't we already established 50/50 fault allotment?

I don't think it is your fault and sorry for the pscyho-analysis...was just relating, knowing of course, there are millions of details that differentiate our sitches.

It does seem obvious to me though, that if space is her thing and now she's getting it, it is safe for her to move closer to you.

ALSO, since when are we listening to WAS (re: sleeping alone...)? I can testify on this having watched my bf's D...she doesn't have a clue how she's gonna feel. She's still in the fog.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: In Silence Is My Strength? - 06/05/09 05:50 PM
Quote:
ALSO, since when are we listening to WAS (re: sleeping alone...)? I can testify on this having watched my bf's D...she doesn't have a clue how she's gonna feel. She's still in the fog.


I'm perfectly willing to believe her when she says she likes sleeping alone.

I'm also perfectly willing to believe that she's still in the fog.

I don't they're mutually exclusive.

Short phone-con with WAW. Again with the farking money. Really, it's getting old. Spousal Support, IMO, falls into the category of Things You Should Have Thought About Before Dropping The Bomb. What -- you didn't know I took part-time work to have the flexibility your career demanded vis-a-vis the kids?
Posted By: Kettricken Re: In Silence Is My Strength? - 06/05/09 06:40 PM
Ahem. "Whistling past the graveyard" was me. I like credit for my cliche-deployments, I do. (grin)

My take: Whistling past said graveyard is nothing either good or bad, but where-it's-coming-from makes it so. If it's allowing you to live on that river in Egypt, it's bad, in the sense of limboizing you. If, OTOH, you're steering by that Stockdale thingy (if that's the one about 'I will eventually prevail, but current circs SUCK in the following long list of ways'), and you're using humor instead of say, rage, or total emotional collapse to cope with your fairly-fully-processed reality ... that sounds pretty healthy to me. Have at it.

The funnyman thing, again, depends. It really depends how it comes across IRL. Personally, give me a man anyday who can laugh and joke in the face of either total impending doom or everyday SNAFUs. I mean, you can't stop it, might as well enjoy the ride. Love covers a multitude of sins, but laughter is riding shotgun. I'm not down with the attitude that says you have to ACT serious to BE serious. I think it's a lot more productive to judge people by their actions or lack thereof rather than their manner when trying to determine whether they're pulling their weight/there for you or not.

ON the other hand (there's always an other hand), I've known people whose urge to be funny stems from an unhealthy (IMHO) narcissistic need to always be the center of attention with attendent audience. I'm not an audience; I'm a friend or partner. I've been around guys whose main goal in life seems to be attention at all costs, and humor is often the shortest route to that. I remember clearly being on a bus full of concert goers with another couple. Our friend pretty much ignored the three of us he was with because he could make smart remarks and attempt to crack up the strangers around him. The fact that his volume pissed a bunch of them off didn't seem to register, nor did the fact that he wasn't socially "dancing with the one who brung" him.

I don't know if any of that applies at all, because I'd have to observe you first-hand to know. Just maybe food for thought. It all depends on the motivation, I think. If something amusing comes to your mind, and you are moved to share it because why shouldn't your friends/family be amused too? -- that's cool. If there's any flavor of throwing a line in the water expecting laughter or recognition or any response at all, though ... people can sense when a response is expected of them. It feels like a form of emotional blackmail, and the quite-reasonable natural tendency is for them to get their feathers ruffled. IMHO.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: In Silence Is My Strength? - 06/05/09 07:06 PM
Quote:
Our friend pretty much ignored the three of us he was with because he could make smart remarks and attempt to crack up the strangers around him. The fact that his volume pissed a bunch of them off didn't seem to register, nor did the fact that he wasn't socially "dancing with the one who brung" him.


I'd have to say this isn't me. Like I posted earlier, these things just come out, often unbidden, like the "All Skate!" They're buried in there somewhere below the medulla oblongata and the right environmental cue makes 'em burst forth.

It's just the way I see the world, I guess.

Quote:
Try as much as possible to be wholly alive, with all your might, and when you laugh, laugh like hell and when you get angry, get good and angry. Try to be alive. You will be dead soon enough.

-- William Saroyan


Quote:
Through humor, you can soften some of the worst blows that life delivers. And once you find laughter, no matter how painful your situation might be, you can survive it.

-- Bill Cosby
Posted By: fb2 Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 07:13 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
We're all about the 50/50 basically, except where the kids are concerned (60/40 in my favor, owing to differences in work schedules) and WAW's separate property (which I have no beef about -- she inherited it from deceased grands and parents and shares it with her sister). WAW's pretty cheesed-off about spousal support -- big philosophical debate that is, "of course," completely NOT about the fact that she has to pay it wink
Not too bad actually looks like you knew ahead of time what to expect from the 'petitioner'. I had to step on the gas ($$$ per gallon) to get from 14 to 60 in just about 2 years. Stick to your guns on the spousal support.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 07:26 PM
Actually had to go off on WAW just now. She insisted that I never call her at work, except for kid emergencies, because my calls -- for whatever reason -- "always upset me" and make it "impossible to get any work done."

So we set up these dedicated e-mail accounts. And her thing was, "I can look at it at the end of the day."

So okay. I'm a cooperative fellow. But then she starts getting irritated at the e-mails, because they're too short. "Too cryptic." And she starts (mis)interpreting them in whatever way necessary to make them "hostile" (not mind-reading, as you'll see in a moment).

So I start writing longer, more detailed, carefully worded, stewed for 60 minutes before button-clicking e-mails. And THOSE make her hysterical, because they're too long. "Too much!" So she starts (mis)interpreting THOSE e-mails in whatever way necessary to make them "hostile" by skimming them and taking the parts she chooses to be hostile out of context.

So I can't call, I can't write short e-mails, I can't write long e-mails. So I write (today) a medium e-mail.

Nope. Gonna misinterpret that one too. "It says X." No, actually it doesn't say that. "It says Y." No, it actually doesn't say that either. In fact, it says, 'This is not saying X or Y. I am saying Z.'

(But Smiley's Person -- couldn't she just be telling you how she is reacting to them? And aren't you not "hearing" her? Yes, that could be it. Riddle me this: DB'er, you know from my POV you are really a fine person. Ohh, so you're saying I'm not a fine person?!?! That's about where it's at.)

So I got fed up and yelled at her for twisting everything I say so that it comes out in her favor, suiting whatever purposes she has at the time. And she has the audacity to say, "Why are you getting upset?"

Bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-ow!
Posted By: fb2 Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 07:26 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
I mean, so many people say "if you're happy, the kids will be happy." It is BS, even statistics have shown it. How does it feel to have your world crumble and have everyone just gloss over it and skip off? I take a different approach, this is hard and it hurts and we'll get through it.
Yes, I absolutely concur from the core of my being. The school 'counselor' told me the kids would be fine with W sleeping in the same bed with OM amd the kids in the same hotel room as long was mom was 'happy' and it was really none of my business. What a big lie! This is sadly 'pop psychology' and 'accepted culture'.
Posted By: givingitmyall Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 07:28 PM
Wow. I thought I was the only one who felt that it was a downer to be around a smiling WAW.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 07:38 PM
Originally Posted By: fb2
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
I mean, so many people say "if you're happy, the kids will be happy." It is BS, even statistics have shown it. How does it feel to have your world crumble and have everyone just gloss over it and skip off? I take a different approach, this is hard and it hurts and we'll get through it.
Yes, I absolutely concur from the core of my being. The school 'counselor' told me the kids would be fine with W sleeping in the same bed with OM amd the kids in the same hotel room as long was mom was 'happy' and it was really none of my business. What a big lie! This is sadly 'pop psychology' and 'accepted culture'.


Yep. The school counselor is most likely not f'ing qualified to make that call. I, Me, Mine should be our new national anthem. But I digress. The kids need to know at their cores that the adults are mindful of and sensitive to what they are going through. Like I said, I went through some traumas it and sometimes felt like "what the hey? My dad just died and you want to know why I'm in a crabby mood??"

You can't coddle, they've got to cope, but sheesh. If child-rearing was just about the grown ups being "happy" couldn't we all just take happy pills and let them work their cr*p out...oh, right, I guess that is what most people do these days.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 07:43 PM
Not to put too fine a point on it, but what is this discussion about exactly?
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 07:44 PM
SP- I think this is where the "screw the WAS, we can't live in fear forever" comes in. And obviously, I don't mean a shift in demeanor but, your email=your length of choice etc.

How about you try some "I'll think about that." Or, "you think so? Really?" Or "I'll take another look and get back to you..."

Maybe you need to disengage and not spar with her.

This seems to me the scariest and most precarious part of the D. Maybe Coach can advise on how one navigates this territory while preserving "friendiness."
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 07:46 PM
Ordinarily I do disengage, but at some point you have to draw a line. Unless I'm to assume I am forbidden from all communications, I don't think it's asking much that she actually read what I say, rather than read it into what she wants to hear for whatever WAW-like goal she's pursuing at that particular point in time. You can't win for losing with this one.
Posted By: fb2 Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 07:48 PM
Life is short, and 'I have a dream", ... so
Look out for #1 because ...
It's all about the blessed Trinity - me, myself and I.
Whatever makes you happy is the way to go!
So bombs away, WA!
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 07:52 PM
Yep-

Quote:
screw the WAS, we can't live in fear forever


That is my predominant feeling with regard to your livelihood and well being. The rest is nuance...I suppose.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 07:53 PM
Hey Person..

*hugs*

Long ago I realized that what I posted to others was meant for me. If something twings inside, I ask even if I feel nervous or stupid. There's always some type of message.

Here's my splatter of thoughts:

Consider going to Retro before telling the kids. Why? Because it seems like the final litmus test. Fracturing a family with passing mentions of reconciliation seems like cruel and unusual punishment for the kids and all involved.

You're probably cooler and calmer than I am. When we went to tell the kids, I planned on letting my husband say it all. The minute I saw the looks on their faces I died inside.. and would have promised the world and a puppy to make their pain go away. My jumping in to assuage their pain let him off the hook of having to say anything. At the time I didn't realize he was already divorced in his mind and onto another life. He felt like the conversation went well. "Don't you realize we ripped a hole in their hearts that will never be healed?" was my reply. At that point I felt like DB, giving space.. everything I'd done was worth sh*t... how could I have agreed to any of this??? T-E-R-R-I-B-L-E..........

About your wife's firking about paying support... well it's all fun and games til the tab comes due. And most people change when it gets down to financials.

I wrote more about the laughter and hiding emotions on my thread if you're interested.

You're an intelligent guy who protects his kids, is aware of how to make things work and are patient. I'm rooting for you.

*hugs*
Posted By: Coach Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 08:24 PM
Quote:
So I got fed up and yelled at her for twisting everything I say so that it comes out in her favor, suiting whatever purposes she has at the time. And she has the audacity to say, "Why are you getting upset?"



Detach weedhopper,detach.
Figure out why you got triggered into losing your cool.
Plus she offered up a opportunity to open up.
You can still answer this question once you think thru it.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 08:25 PM
Hey Person of Smiley's..

Re: Your wife's response to your emails and phone calls. It's great that you are trying to work with her. Her emotions are coming to the forefront so that everything is unsettling.

Keep it to email if that works for her. Say you'll put it in bullet form. Keep it simple. Validate that you know its difficult.

It's not you.. it's her. You're just the one she gets to blame. Stay calm, know your goals and keep moving forward.

*hugs*
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 08:30 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
So I got fed up and yelled at her for twisting everything I say so that it comes out in her favor, suiting whatever purposes she has at the time. And she has the audacity to say, "Why are you getting upset?"



Detach weedhopper,detach.
Figure out why you got triggered into losing your cool.
Plus she offered up a opportunity to open up.
You can still answer this question once you think thru it.


THAT, was an opportunity???

Color me confused,

Puppy
Posted By: Kettricken Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 08:30 PM
Of course, this isn't the underlying issue, but Coach is all over that.

From a practical standpoint, however .... given that:

Short = Bad
Medium = Bad
Long = Bad

.... cut yourself a break, dude. Communicate in the length/format seems most sensible/comfortable to YOU at this point, with a focus on clarity ... and let the chips fall where they may.

Chasing a moving target = that way lies madness.
Posted By: Kalni Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 08:31 PM
Smiley,
I dont post to you often, mostly because I feel I miss half of the things said on your thread due to the language barrier, but I try to follow.

I once told you I think you need to calm down or something in these -simple- words. Today I read something someone mentioned and I wondered if you consider yourself antagonistic (competetive?). Do you always have to say the last word? Make the last smart (@ss smile ) comment, say a joke? Is this your way to deal with things? Do you engage in "verbal swordfight" (I think that's how OD/Lisa described once what I am trying to describe)because you simply enjoy iy without meaning any harm?

Dont get me wrong, I enjoy your posts and your attitude. BUT, I cant imagine living with a man 24/7 that sounds/seems always so hyper and ready to REact on things... I think I would get "burned out" at some point. Maybe it is just me being used to a VERY passive man, I was just wondering, maybe you are nothing like that, but I have to say, all this "energy" to me, sometimes seems a bit....aggressive and chaotic?
K

BTW, there is nothing you can do to "please" her when communicating to her if she has decied she will get upset with you. Just try to be thoughfull and think of what brings you closer to your goal. By the way, what IS your goal lately? I may have missed it...
Posted By: robx Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 09:20 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Actually had to go off on WAW just now. She insisted that I never call her at work, except for kid emergencies, because my calls -- for whatever reason -- "always upset me" and make it "impossible to get any work done."

So we set up these dedicated e-mail accounts. And her thing was, "I can look at it at the end of the day."

So okay. I'm a cooperative fellow. But then she starts getting irritated at the e-mails, because they're too short. "Too cryptic." And she starts (mis)interpreting them in whatever way necessary to make them "hostile" (not mind-reading, as you'll see in a moment).

So I start writing longer, more detailed, carefully worded, stewed for 60 minutes before button-clicking e-mails. And THOSE make her hysterical, because they're too long. "Too much!" So she starts (mis)interpreting THOSE e-mails in whatever way necessary to make them "hostile" by skimming them and taking the parts she chooses to be hostile out of context.

So I can't call, I can't write short e-mails, I can't write long e-mails. So I write (today) a medium e-mail.

Nope. Gonna misinterpret that one too. "It says X." No, actually it doesn't say that. "It says Y." No, it actually doesn't say that either. In fact, it says, 'This is not saying X or Y. I am saying Z.'

(But Smiley's Person -- couldn't she just be telling you how she is reacting to them? And aren't you not "hearing" her? Yes, that could be it. Riddle me this: DB'er, you know from my POV you are really a fine person. Ohh, so you're saying I'm not a fine person?!?! That's about where it's at.)

So I got fed up and yelled at her for twisting everything I say so that it comes out in her favor, suiting whatever purposes she has at the time. And she has the audacity to say, "Why are you getting upset?"

Bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-ow!


Dude... would you tolerate any of us telling you how to post your updates on this forum?

You write how you want to write, don't let her tell you how you can write msg's, small, medium, long.

It's her choice to read them,
you're not looking for publishing & proof reading input from her - make it known that how you write is how you write and if she doesn't like it, that's unfortunate for her, not for you.

Women testing men,
view this as one of those tests,
possibly subconscious on her part, testing you,
seeing how much she can push you and bend you to her will.

Once you realize this testing is constant, especially in this situation, just smile and go with it. When you know you're being tested, it's easy to give the responses you need to give her.
Posted By: Coach Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 09:26 PM
Quote:
THAT, was an opportunity???

Color me confused,

Puppy


Blue Dog,
Your woman asks you, "why are you upset?" She wants to understand your feelings. It's kinda like reverse validating. confused
So a great response to encourage a dialouge instead of a argument (no more twisting or confusion) -
H- Thanks for asking. I feel_____________ when you do______________________. Can you now see why I might be upset?
W -response
H- Yes, you understand thank you. How do you feel about that or why do you feel that way?
No, How can I help you understand?
No more defensiveness, we are seeking to understand, I am asking how you genuinely feel. We get upset when are aren't being heard. Being heard means someone is showing you interest, compassion, love. You have great empathy for people dealing with A, it's your ministry. I struggled and still screw up with really listening to what my W is telling me. It's not the way guys talk or communicate. When I listen to understand it's different than listening just to hear.

SP, I think one of the points the W are making to you is are you communicating to be "right" or to do the right thing?

Cheers
Posted By: Coach Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 09:36 PM
Quote:
Women testing men,
view this as one of those tests,
possibly subconscious on her part, testing you,
seeing how much she can push you and bend you to her will.


Yep, she baited you with the all bs about how you were doing it all wrong. You took the bait got upset (nomomojo laugh.) Then the test: Why are you upset?
You have to understand how and why you are going to respond to pass the test and be her man.
BE + DO = HAVE
Posted By: Kettricken Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 09:40 PM
As long as we all accept that "Why are you getting upset?" can be either a genuine request for insight ..... or ..... deliberately-[censored]-disingenuousness.

That said, there's no harm in treating it as a sincere query as long as you don't let it get you off balance. You hate it when she constantly puts the worst possible construction upon your meanings and motives ..... so, sauce for the goose .....
Posted By: Kettricken Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 09:41 PM
Oh, wow. I just found one of the DB Board "upgrades".

Automatic censoring of my (alliterative) expletive up there.

Wonder what else they censor now.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 09:42 PM
I think you're over-reaching there, Coach. It wasn't an inquiry into my feelings -- it was a "what am I doing wrong? You're the one who wrote the medium e-mail!" kind of query.

Frankly, WAW's communication skills are first-rate -- outward-bound. In-bound, she hears what she wants to hear. Has always been that way.

This wasn't an opportunity for WAW to "hear" me. It was an opportunity to get p/o'd, which she obviously hasn't had enough of in recent days. This is a woman who will say she "wants to talk" and "be open," but who, whenever the conversation goes any way other than hers, will simply declare, "Well obviously we can't talk about this," get up, and storm out of the room.

Typical Example:

W: "We should talk about the spousal support."
SP: Okay.
W: "How much do you want?"
SP: I don't know; I haven't seen any numbers. What did Attorney Friend say was the County default number?
W: Well, it's obvious we can't talk about this. I knew you'd say you were going to go for the jugular. I knew you'd be completely unreasonable! [Storms off]

Where the prescribed answer is, "Why, nothing, darling! I just consider myself fortunate to have had the opportunity to have been married to you! I should be paying you for the privilege of getting divorced! In fact, let me get out the checkbook right now."

Though recently she's changed "go for the jugular" to "f*** me in the ***."
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 09:55 PM
taking notes here smiley. I'd like to humbly suggest you don't agree to have a conversation unless you know what you want. I'm sure the issue is broader...she's difficut. But, I think you've got to have your own pros and your own numbers and your own rationale priror to engaging. Otherwise it becomes some amorphous, sort of rhetorical dialog with too much room for diversion/interpretation...

Iphone typos sorry
Posted By: robx Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 10:16 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I think you're over-reaching there, Coach. It wasn't an inquiry into my feelings -- it was a "what am I doing wrong? You're the one who wrote the medium e-mail!" kind of query.

Frankly, WAW's communication skills are first-rate -- outward-bound. In-bound, she hears what she wants to hear. Has always been that way.

This wasn't an opportunity for WAW to "hear" me. It was an opportunity to get p/o'd, which she obviously hasn't had enough of in recent days. This is a woman who will say she "wants to talk" and "be open," but who, whenever the conversation goes any way other than hers, will simply declare, "Well obviously we can't talk about this," get up, and storm out of the room.

Typical Example:

W: "We should talk about the spousal support."
SP: Okay.
W: "How much do you want?"
SP: I don't know; I haven't seen any numbers. What did Attorney Friend say was the County default number?
W: Well, it's obvious we can't talk about this. I knew you'd say you were going to go for the jugular. I knew you'd be completely unreasonable! [Storms off]

Where the prescribed answer is, "Why, nothing, darling! I just consider myself fortunate to have had the opportunity to have been married to you! I should be paying you for the privilege of getting divorced! In fact, let me get out the checkbook right now."

Though recently she's changed "go for the jugular" to "f*** me in the ***."


Hey we're making progress, I told you she wanted some "action" from you.

The next time she says this,
tell her
"...I do want to f*** you in the a** but in the bedroom, not here in the office" and wink at her

This is all her testing you, continue to see it like this and respond accordingly.

And I wasn't joking about the response I posted above either, try it, show her you're funny, be confident about it too when you say it.
Posted By: Coach Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 10:16 PM
Quote:
In-bound, she hears what she wants hear. Has always been that way.


How would you know what she hears?

It's always been that way? Really? Have you read "Learned Optimism" by Martin Seligman. Always is pessimistic thinking it's permanent. That book helped me.

Remember her getting angry is good. Next time she get's POd think OK this is good then ask yourself how do I get to the real reason she is upset. This is the motherlode of connecting.
Plan on how you can keep a dialouge going when she is mad (test). Easy way to diffuse someone is to agree with them. "I understand why you might feel I am going for the jugular but that is not my intention. I honestly don't know what the spousal support number should be sounds like a legal questions to me. Maybe it is best we leave this up to the lawyers. This isn't a threat but a solution to a problem we have that is very upsetting for me and it appears to cause you a lot of stress as well."
Quote:
whenever the conversation goes any way other than hers, will simply declare, "Well obviously we can't talk about this," get up, and storm out of the room.

Follow her (giving her space) and respond "Why do you feel that way?" Let her unload on you and you take it because it's anger being released. I'm not condoning you get abused here but she needs to let fly and she needs to see you acknowledge her anger, frustration and pain. No negative emotions on your part just compassion and empathy. Agree with her unless she starts to tell you what you think or feel. She feels what she feels and you feel what you feel. If you don't do it she will find someone else who will. This is one of those unwritten tests that men are clueless about when dealing with their women.
If you get nothing else out of this remember her anger means she is attached. She is a pressure cooker and you need to help her release some pressure before she explodes. The move out date is approaching, there are legal issues, financial issues, the kids, all of this is pressure. Lead. You can handle it.
Cheers
Posted By: MrBond Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 10:26 PM
Sorry for the hijack, but Coach, could you take a look at my sitch again and offer a suggestion or two? Thanks!
Posted By: orangedog Re: A Random Query - 06/05/09 11:02 PM
As Coach says, the move out date is approaching.

The rollercoaster carts are ratcheting up the incline ...chk chk chk chk... and soon they will slowly crest over the top and begin screeeeeeeeammming down the other side.

It's going to be a up and down ride for both of you as you get closer to that date. Find a safe place to vent, cry, be happy, whatever, but keep it together and keep the friendiness thing going. This is what you've trained for.
Posted By: fb2 Re: A Random Query - 06/06/09 12:50 AM
"SP: I don't know; I haven't seen any numbers. What did Attorney Friend say was the County default number?"

The default is calculated by a software program called "Dissomaster" and the inputs to the program are a bunch of financial numbers such as your income, her income, certain essential expenses, taxes withheld, etc. It's not something you or she can simply pull out of a hat. And in some states if you've been married over a certain # of years (typically 10) its for an indefinite period of time as long as there is a significant income differential and the recipient does not re-marry. There, that's your final answer! No need of hemming or hawing.
Posted By: fb2 Re: A Random Query - 06/06/09 12:59 AM
<< Agree with her unless she starts to tell you what you think or feel.

I've always wondered where the fine line of "abuse" is when these WAWs are ranting and raving with all sorts of personal attacks where history gets rewritten? The most natural response for a man when the pressure cooker goes off like this is fight or fright. Either you quickly put the weight on the pressure cooker valve or you run a mile. So when you start saying "sorry you feel that way, ..." they smell a rat.

At any rate if the above happens say: "Who know's better how I think or feel? You? Or me?"
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: A Random Query - 06/06/09 03:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
THAT, was an opportunity???

Color me confused,

Puppy


Blue Dog,
Your woman asks you, "why are you upset?" She wants to understand your feelings. It's kinda like reverse validating. confused
So a great response to encourage a dialouge instead of a argument (no more twisting or confusion) -
H- Thanks for asking. I feel_____________ when you do______________________. Can you now see why I might be upset?
W -response
H- Yes, you understand thank you. How do you feel about that or why do you feel that way?
No, How can I help you understand?
No more defensiveness, we are seeking to understand, I am asking how you genuinely feel. We get upset when are aren't being heard. Being heard means someone is showing you interest, compassion, love. You have great empathy for people dealing with A, it's your ministry. I struggled and still screw up with really listening to what my W is telling me. It's not the way guys talk or communicate. When I listen to understand it's different than listening just to hear.

SP, I think one of the points the W are making to you is are you communicating to be "right" or to do the right thing?

Cheers


I see your point, but I guess I didn't see his wife's ranting complaint as a true cry for more/better communication of his feelings. I saw it just as gritchin' at him. Maybe I'm wrong.

Puppy
Posted By: robx Re: A Random Query - 06/06/09 04:57 AM
Originally Posted By: fb2
<< Agree with her unless she starts to tell you what you think or feel.

I've always wondered where the fine line of "abuse" is when these WAWs are ranting and raving with all sorts of personal attacks where history gets rewritten? The most natural response for a man when the pressure cooker goes off like this is fight or fright. Either you quickly put the weight on the pressure cooker valve or you run a mile. So when you start saying "sorry you feel that way, ..." they smell a rat.

At any rate if the above happens say: "Who know's better how I think or feel? You? Or me?"


Nobody is saying you have to be a prick or an a$$hole when the WAS/WAW goes off on an anger spree and starts saying hurtful things. You are the best person to know when they cross the line or not. If they are communicating you will know, if they are spewing forth crap just to hurt you, you will know as well and when it's the latter, you can either stay and join in the argument or you can try smiling and walking away.

In fact I've taken it one step further and I'm not saying anyone has to do this but sometimes it helps when setting boundaries with how someone treats you.

My wife at one point used to be extremely cruel when talking to me, she would say things that a few years ago would literally make me misty and I felt so powerless. I got a kick in the a$$ from a friend who was tired of seeing me get hurt & being treated/abused in this way.

How did I stop her in her tracks?
Well while my wife was going off on one of her verbal assaults on me (and they do get cruel & spiteful), instead of joining in the argument I just stood there with my hands on my hips and started shaking my head and looking at her with disgust & utter annoyance but I didn't say a thing, after a while she stopped her rant and asked me if that's all I was going to do. I told her that when she acted poorly,extremely cruel and angry towards me that I found her physically unattractive, I was literally getting disgusted & repulsed looking at her and I couldn't stand the sight of her anymore. I then told her I wouldn't reward her crap behavior with my attention anymore and that if she wanted to bully someone, she could go down the street to the local elementary school and pick on some little kid more her size and then I walked away. I continued doing this everytime she started her verbal abuse against me and reminded her that she was a bully.

Bullies tend to do well against those that will just take their abuse repeatedly, people who have low self-esteem - it's like they can smell it/sense it.

When you make a stand (and it doesn't have to be angry or violent) and tell them you won't tolerate their crap anymore (specifically WAW's that treat their LBS poorly), you communicate that you respect yourself enough that you are willing to let go of the people that don't love or respect you. There is no trick involved in getting this to work, you just have to mean it, it has to be genuine - if you're just saying words but there is no real meaning behind it, they can tell, they have great intuition with this stuff. Telling her she was unattractive during rant was a double whammy: while they're out having affairs, they feel very attractive with the people they are seeing plus they know you're at home frantically trying to get the marriage back on track - it's an ego boost, and they feel very powerful because of it. When you tell them they're unattractive and you don't want to look at them anymore (again you have to mean it, I know I did), it wakes them up a bit and brings them into reality. When the LBS is no longer sitting at home pleading for them to come back & hoping the marriage will one day be reconciled, the affairs that the WAS's are engaged in aren't as exciting as they were previously. Cheating on a spouse who loves you and is actively trying to save the marriage makes the WAS feel guilty but they still do it, affairs are exciting. When the LBS stops pursuing the WAS and gives up and assumes the marriage is over and starts moving on with their life, the excitement that the WAS experiences from their affair is diminished quite a bit to the point where they question why they're doing what they're doing. That's why GAL, going dark, 180's and LRT are effective - once you stop pursuing, you get a life, start to move on, act as if life is great and even better now that things are the way they are - you kill the excitement that the WAS is having, you generate doubt at their end and they start questioning everything they're doing.

Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: A Random Query - 06/06/09 12:51 PM
Rob,

That is a phenomenal, phenomenal post. whistle whistle I know Smiley's thread gets lots of traffic, so I hope many will read that and really consider it.

I love the "not attractive" thing, and I think it can be used by both sexes in a lot of different contexts. It works with men VERY well, when for example they're being whiny or even when one is lying to you, for the woman to say "Please stop doing that -- it's very unattractive." Even spouses who purport to be running away from you and the marriage as fast as they can, will stop in their tracks when you tell them that what they're doing "isn't attractive."

Puppy
Posted By: pollyanna Re: A Random Query - 06/07/09 12:26 AM
Amazing post and very very true. I have experienced both sides and you are so exactly right.

Quote:
There is no trick involved in getting this to work, you just have to mean it, it has to be genuine - if you're just saying words but there is no real meaning behind it, they can tell, they have great intuition with this stuff.


That is sooooooo right. As a WAS I sensed H shift from fighting for understanding and M to letting me go. No words needed. I sensed it and body language said it all.

As a LBS I tried to say the words which I thought were true , that I no longer cared about H. But I was kidding myself. It took time and GAL and a sense of self.

My silence did and continues to speak volumes and I feel good. I feel unburdened, liberated I suppose. This is DB. I am heading for a place in my life when i will make good choices , and that may be with H or it may be with someone else. Whoever it is, it will be right. It wont hurt.
Posted By: SmileysPerson SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 02:19 AM
Just a brief update from another WAW-free weekend. Yesterday evening WAW e-mailed to ask if we could "talk about today's miscommunication" (the Great Medium E-Mail Imbroglio of 2009). I replied, "That sounds like a good idea."

And so after the kids went to bed, down WAW came. Sat down on the sofa. "So?"

SP: Ummmm, sooooooo, what, exactly?
WAW: What did you want to talk about?
SP: Ummmmmm, huh? I thought you wanted to talk about the argument today.
WAW: Yeah. What do you have to say about it?

Now at this point you might be just as puzzled as I. But it went along, not sure how, and after half an hour we got to the point where we were at after the argument. Essentially everything I do is wrong.

We moved from there to my reaction to the divorce papers service (accepting, but irritated). And then to the recurring topic of guilt over the kids, how terrible next weekend will be, etc.

And I listened and validated. She didn't ask me for my feelings and I didn't offer them.

When she said "You must hate me," I told her that, while I hate the situation and I hate what it says about our marriage and what it will do to the kids and etc., I don't hate her. I understand that, from her POV, this is what she has to do to survive -- I disagree, but I understand.

And when she observed that I was "obviously moving on -- any 'lunches' this week?" I replied that we do what we have to do, but I do miss her, I miss the little things that added up to the marriage in my mind -- to which she replied she never noticed I liked them during the marriage, etc. -- and that at least I was learning from the experience for the benefit of myself and the two youngsters and all the future ex-Mrs. Smiley's Persons. To which she laughed and went to bed.

And that was that. She left this morning and will be back at bedtime tomorrow night.

On the bad news front, it appears that my job might be in some jeopardy. Which, among other things, will exacerbate the spousal support issue to the -nth degree.

But that is a problem for another day, said Scarlett O'Smiley.

For now, SmileyBob MojoPants is Ready. Ready, ready, ready.

(Scared, but ready.)
Posted By: Sara Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 02:30 AM
Reminds me of the joke,.... if a husband is alone in the woods, is he still wrong?
Posted By: Greek Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 03:12 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
but I do miss her, I miss the little things that added up to the marriage in my mind -- to which she replied she never noticed I liked them during the marriage, etc.


She never noticed? How could she have missed that?

You have such an opportunity here, Smiley Pants. She's telling you something very important here. VERY.

Cheers ~
Posted By: Gypsy Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 03:25 AM
Do you see your wife as your emotional confidant?

Does she see you as hers?

*hugs*
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 03:32 AM
Quote:
On the bad news front, it appears that my job might be in some jeopardy. Which, among other things, will exacerbate the spousal support issue to the -nth degree.


You ever considered punditry?
Posted By: fb2 Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 07:43 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
On the bad news front, it appears that my job might be in some jeopardy. Which, among other things, will exacerbate the spousal support issue to the -nth degree.
While the "possibility" may be a downer for you personally, it may be a silver lining as far as being a speed bump for WAW; she may now worry about extra child support too. You see the WAW invariable does some wishful financial analysis before putting on her walking shoes.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 12:28 PM
Originally Posted By: fb2
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
On the bad news front, it appears that my job might be in some jeopardy. Which, among other things, will exacerbate the spousal support issue to the -nth degree.
While the "possibility" may be a downer for you personally, it may be a silver lining as far as being a speed bump for WAW; she may now worry about extra child support too. You see the WAW invariable does some wishful financial analysis before putting on her walking shoes.


Almost always, yes. It's part of the typical wayward fantasy.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 02:14 PM
A collective (collected?) response:

@Greek:

Quote:
She never noticed? How could she have missed that?

You have such an opportunity here, Smiley Pants. She's telling you something very important here. VERY.


I don't know how she could have missed it. Honestly -- not being deliberately obtuse. I only told her, in words, writing, and action, half-a-million times. I suspect that comment was part of the necessary re-writing. She's said herself on a number of occasions recently "I can't remember anything good."

(Constructed) example:

Scene: One night in the bedroom, circa 2005. SP gets into bed, slides over next to Herself, who is reading.

WAW: What? Am I supposed to turn out the light now?
SP: No, it doesn't bother me. I just like being next to you.
WAW: How can you sleep with a light on? You can't sleep with a light on! *Sigh* Okay, I'll turn the light out.
SP: No, Term of Endearment; you don't have to. It really doesn't bother me. I'd rather fall asleep here, next to you, with the light on, than not be next to you.
WAW: Are you sure?
SP: Of course I'm sure. It's the closeness. I like the closeness.

Scene: Sofa convo, 2 (3?) days ago:

SP: I miss the closeness. The physical closeness. Like falling asleep while you're reading.
WAW: Really? I never knew you liked that.

Well...... bonk, bonk, bonk.

@fb2: Yes, the job situation has its upside, but in the Grand Scheme Of Things I'd just as soon not have to deal with any additional turbulence on this flight. Still, buy the ticket, take the ride.

@AlexEN: "after reading today's somewhat prophetic SplungeBlog". No comprendo.

@Gypsy:

Quote:
Do you see your wife as your emotional confidant?

Does she see you as hers?


All I can say is "used to." I think after my return from the war, she stopped. Or, more precisely, she stopped DURING the war, partly in an attempt to insulate me from her own turbulence.

@aliveandkicking: Sure I've considered punditry. Know any major television news networks who are short a talking head?? laugh For punditry you need a really crappy book that gets a lot of attention. Maybe after the Big Divorce Book is published I'll get on Oprah. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, talk about fantasy.


Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 02:54 PM

Quote:
@aliveandkicking: Sure I've considered punditry. Know any major television news networks who are short a talking head?? laugh


I don't but H might. LOL!

Quote:
For punditry you need a really crappy book that gets a lot of attention. Maybe after the Big Divorce Book is published I'll get on Oprah. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, talk about fantasy.


I'm not sure there aren't other ways or mediums appropriate for your talent and political musings/insights. Just think about it, I guess.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 03:26 PM
Who does she turn to for emotional support now? It seems like she still talks to you about things most spouses who leave don't.

*hugs*
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 06:30 PM
I'd have to say that the absolute go-to would be divorced-and-happily remarried gf (who was awesome during my tour in Iraq for WAW), followed @ quite a distance by 3 HS-now-FB friends who are all divorcing now as well - the 4 do a lot of commiserating and mutual encouragement, while DHRGF does the real emotional heavy-lifting and support. Curiously, DHRGF also seems to be something of a DB ally - she's indicated to WAW on several convos "how great" she thinks it would be if we patched it together because she "loves" me "so much."
Posted By: fb2 Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 08:16 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
... the 4 do a lot of commiserating and mutual encouragement, while DHRGF does the real emotional heavy-lifting and support.
Sooner or later an OM will show up esp. now she's "separated". Don't fall for the "ally" part - its much weaker than the "commiserating". Your "tour of duty" (thanks to Dubbya and Saddam) probably was fertile ground for the seed to be planted in WAW's brain. I think all this DBing dulls the wits into hoping and giving them the benefit of doubt, etc. I bet you she has a plan all worked out in her head to play out the fantasy.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/07/09 08:35 PM
Originally Posted By: fb2
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
... the 4 do a lot of commiserating and mutual encouragement, while DHRGF does the real emotional heavy-lifting and support.
Sooner or later an OM will show up esp. now she's "separated". Don't fall for the "ally" part - its much weaker than the "commiserating". Your "tour of duty" (thanks to Dubbya and Saddam) probably was fertile ground for the seed to be planted in WAW's brain. I think all this DBing dulls the wits into hoping and giving them the benefit of doubt, etc. I bet you she has a plan all worked out in her head to play out the fantasy.


I'm not sure why I'm taking such offense at this post...I guess since the LBS can't control the WAS behavior, I just don't see the point in speculating or projecting. My best friend who divorced her H 2 years ago still hasn't hooked up with anyone (and yes she's attractive). When you find yourself well over 35 and single with children, getting a good shtup is not usually the first priority.

Is there something constructive to take from your post? Is it just to be prepared for OP to show up? Cuz, how the heck do you prepare for that?Personally, I am keenly aware that it is a likelihood in my sitch but I'll have to cross that bridge when I get there...
Posted By: fb2 Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/08/09 05:49 AM
Children or no children ... Except in rare cases what do you suppose is one of the biggest motivators for such WAW? An OM is the ultimate in 'commiseration' and the WAW will be sure to seek out all those who will commiserate. And once an OM gets involved its like terminal cancer. Often you don't even know for months that the disease has already taken hold. What I'm trying to say is ... be prepared ... how? I dunno. But when you come to that bridge unawares you will feel (at least if you are a man) very violated, disgusted and afraid for your kids.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/08/09 10:44 AM
@fb2: While it might well prove to be the case that Joe OM is rubbing another man's rhubarb, I'm just not concerned about it. If there is, so be it. "Separation is dress rehearsal for divorce." I expect it is so. But as I have posted ad nauseum here, I fully expect to get divorced. If WAW needs that itch scratched, she's going to get it scratched. And, like as not, so will I.

As for DHRGF, I do believe she is in fact an ally. She and I have (I suppose "had" now is a more accurate construction) a very good, and even close, relationship over the years. She was with WAW when WAW made the decision that she was going to get a D. She knew I was getting a divorce before I did! But WAW has now reported -- unless she's lying outright -- at least 4 separate conversations where it has been DHRGF who has brought up the subject of reconciliation to WAW and has said how happy she'd be with that outcome. And DHRGF is someone WAW has known over 30 years -- not someone who'd feel the need for BS Happy Talk.

Which leads us into today's update (and I may go on a business trip this week which will cut deeply into my time-consuming work-avoiding support-seeking here).

WAW returned last night; did the usual kid stuff; came downstairs while I was reading; fixed herself some food. I went into the bathroom to begin to shut down the operating system and hit the sack -- was very tired after a 5-mile run and 2 hours of tennis, along with bike-riding and putt-putt with the offspring (regrettably neither Moon Pies nor RC Cola could be located to complete the putt-putt experience, and if you live below the Mason-Dixon you'll know what I mean).

Went into the dining room, sat down across the table from WAW, and made with the usual pleasantries: How was DHRGF, what's her H like, how was dinner with Friends 1 & 2? Received the usual pleasant answers: Fine, nice (but quiet, too quiet for me), good, had the fish, etc.

Then WAW asks: "So, have you thought about us?"

Ah-oooga! Ah-ooga! Dive! Dive! Rig for silent running! Rig for depth charge! (Just watched that Clark Gable submarine movie the other day.)

Ummmmm. No? Maybe? Not any more than usual. What do you mean by that?

And WAW explained that she wondered if I'd thought about the Great Medium Email Imbroglio of 2009 anymore. She has, and it bothers her; she still doesn't like conflict; she's just not cut out for it.

And I heard and validated and when WAW asked what my feelings were about it, I told her that perhaps it was an artifact of my childhood but I never expected a long-term relationship to be conflict-free. That two people as smart and strong-willed and determined to prove themselves right as we often are were bound to have minor conflicts, but that I didn't think such things were fatal -- just the normal peaks and valleys of life, one of the reasons why there's "better and worse" in the marital vows.

And she heard and validated and asked what my opinion was on relationships, and I shared some thoughts on relationships generally and my view of what's desirable in them -- much too convoluted and long to be posted here. Suffice it to say they range from social dissolution in America to Shiva to re-enacting roles we learn in childhood and back again. Short version is that, from my POV, WAW has a somewhat static view of relationships. She heard and validated, clarified her position on relationships, taking issue (sans conflict) with my POV, but not elaborating much more beyond that.

WAW teared-up a bit as I talked about my evolving views about relationships and, when I was done, asked when on earth had I started thinking about such things?

Systematically? Yes. I'd say about 4 months ago. (Laughter [N.B.: D-bomb was 4 months ago.])

"Wow. I never, ever would have thought you'd think things like that. The last thing I would have imagined. You just seemed to be on auto-pilot for so many years."

I suppose I was. But it's pretty clear to me now that auto-pilot doesn't work. Most important, significant relationship of my life, right? And I see the outcome of auto-pilot. So I suppose I recognized it was time to shape-up and start thinking.

Then WAW said, "If there's any chance of us getting back together, we're going to have get counseling on communication, because our communication is terrible."

I agreed -- cautiously -- that no matter what happens, we should probably do that, because we're going to need to communicate effectively for the next 12 years on kid-matters, especially when the crazy teen years are upon us.

She agreed, we chatted aimlessly about my potential business trip this week and then, as she does, she excused herself for bed because of an early (for her) alarm clock.
Posted By: antlers Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/08/09 12:55 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Then WAW said, "If there's any chance of us getting back together, we're going to have get counseling on communication, because our communication is terrible."



That's pretty big SP. Keep workin' it!
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/08/09 02:25 PM
SP- Great!!! Slow and Steady.
Posted By: JKL2009 Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/08/09 02:55 PM
Great recap, I am so copying that post and adding it to the playbook of go-to talking points!
Posted By: fb2 Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/08/09 05:13 PM
Looks like your humorous way with words is helping to detach and cope. But unless I'm reading too much between the lines there may be elements of denial and cynicism mixed in. The vigorous exercise is definitely good - more important to be regular than sporadic.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/08/09 05:29 PM
Quote:
denial and cynicism


Living requires some denial and cynicism. Lest we run around like Chicken Littles screaming about how the sky is falling and we're all gonna die. We are all going to die you know?

The greatest gift I've gotten on this site is to already accept that I'm dead (thanks SP wink ). It is absolutely the key to liberation and joy and taking in the beauty each day and cherishing my beautiful little spawn. Tears...there is inherent in the hours spent on here and constant evaluating, no shortage of exhibition that we are all obsessively and deeply committed to a positive outcome for ourselves and our families AND we still have to live and love. For cr*p sake, I could get my damn H back and get run over by a truck the next day.

fb2- thanks for making me think!
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/08/09 09:52 PM
Quote:
But unless I'm reading too much between the lines there may be elements of denial and cynicism mixed in.


I don't know what this means.
Posted By: fb2 Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/08/09 10:12 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Quote:
But unless I'm reading too much between the lines there may be elements of denial and cynicism mixed in.


I don't know what this means.

It may mean nothing after all. D is trauma but you seem to be dead to it which hopefully good.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: SmileyBob MojoPants - 06/09/09 01:32 AM
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Quote:
But unless I'm reading too much between the lines there may be elements of denial and cynicism mixed in.



I don't know what this means.


It may mean nothing after all. D is trauma but you seem to be dead to it which hopefully good.


I don't know what this means, either. If you think I don't recognize that divorce = trauma -- trauma for me, trauma for S9, trauma for D6, trauma for WAW -- then you haven't been reading.

Recognizing and accepting that I'm already "dead" -- in the terms used in the Spiers Paradigm -- that, in other words, the divorce is ON, is not the same as being dead to the feelings.

It is (for me, at any rate) a necessary part of accepting and overcoming the feelings.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 02:37 AM
I'm not sure what it was, precisely, that caused the disk in Number 46 Mojo Butterfly Valve to fail, stuck in the valve seat and thereby allowing an unrestrained flow of mojo to escape the system, but while pushing my trolley through the Sanctified and Hallowed Halls of Modern American Supermarket, I suddenly found myself profoundly sad.

The proximate cause was a bit of WAW-mail -- nothing in and of itself particularly bad, mind you -- that mentioned the need for scheduling the Time Over Target for the delivery of Kid D-bomb.

I'd been disjointed all day, feeling overwhelmed at a comparatively simple list of tasks, mostly relating to my trip to Capitol City day after tomorrow. The overwhelm came from the disjointedness, I think, rather than vice-versa, and the disjointedness came from the looming mission, Kid D-Day, sitting there at the end of the calendar, hideous banshee grin, licking its chops, ready to devour my offspring.

And I mentioned in my reply to the WAW-gram that I was feeling disjointed, and WAW asked why.

Why?

This is, very nearly, the first time she has asked after my feelings unbidden. So I told her. And what ensued was a 7-round e-convo that was open, honest, sympathetic, non-judgmental, and....good. It resolved nothing -- there being nothing to resolve -- and it changed nothing, yet it somehow changed a lot. I was struck by the wisdom of The Jody, DB Coach Extraordinaire, who pointed out very early in the process that the only True Common Ground shared by WAW and LBS is Children (assuming, of course, there are such creatures in the house).

I wrote this:
Quote:
The very idea of what we're about to do to the children we created, and who depend on us to give their world meaning.... It's incomprehensible to me. As much as this divorce has taken over every aspect of my life, knowing what's coming - wondering what the looks on their faces will be, what the ache in their little hearts and tummies will be, how confused and frightened and abandoned and betrayed they're going to feel - that's just some next-level sh*t to cope with. And as much as I "get" all the things you've said about me failing you, I just can't get my head around this part. I feel so inhumane, so profoundly guilty that my acute case of dumb-ass man syndrome in terms of your adult needs also has to be so terribly, terribly destructive of their child-needs.

To which she replied:
Quote:
I feel the same way and, like you said, everything that happens once I walk out that door is on me. So you should give yourself a break. I know you won't, but you should.

To which I replied:
Quote:
Perhaps, perhaps, but at the end of the day I can't escape the basic responsibility that is mine and mine alone as the author of this narrative. It's inescapable, as are the effects: because the most robust studies of the effects of divorce on children suggest that what they will feel this weekend will still be producing repercussions for them as far into the future as year 2045.

My failure to love you the way you deserved to be loved, in other words, translates directly to a failure to guard and defend the hearts and innocence of my own children.

And regardless of which side of The Door you're on, the fact remains that I was the carpenter. Avoiding or trying to absolve myself of that responsibility is inconsistent with the path I've elected to walk until my sand runs out.


And it continued along. Openly. Sharing. Feelings.

It was almost as if we were married or something. But the Doing Of It, what with Number 46 Mojo Butterfly Valve stuck in the valve seat, has exhausted me. My mojo reserves are at the critical point. It's a good thing I'm leaving town -- it will make it that much harder to backslide.

I'm exhausted. I need to go to bed. With my mojo hand. Black cat bone and gris-gris, too.
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson


I wrote this:
[quote]The very idea of what we're about to do to the children we created, and who depend on us to give their world meaning.... It's incomprehensible to me. As much as this divorce has taken over every aspect of my life, knowing what's coming - wondering what the looks on their faces will be, what the ache in their little hearts and tummies will be, how confused and frightened and abandoned and betrayed they're going to feel - that's just some next-level sh*t to cope with.


Gee, thanks for making me cry, SP. Thanksabunch.

This -- the thought of my boys (S16, S12) and how much of their world revolves around the four of us (and their two older sisters), INTACT -- is what keeps me pushing on.

EVERY time we've backed away from the abyss, it's been on the cusp of having to tell the boys.

Puppy
Posted By: confusedinpa Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 02:48 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
To which she replied:
Quote:
I feel the same way and, like you said, everything that happens once I walk out that door is on me. So you should give yourself a break. I know you won't, but you should.



SmileysPerson,

I think a "positive", if such a thing during any of these situations that impact children, is that you wife recognizes her responsibility and accountability for what's about to happen.

My wife, to this day (7 weeks since she moved out), even through the court required seminar on Children of Divorce, and her being a child of divorce as well, says that our boys will be fine that they will not be impacted.

Even when she calls to complain how they act up now when they are with her, like they hadn't before, and ask to go home to Daddy, that she can't see how it has anything to do with this situation.

She had even wanted to tell them first on the day after my son's 7th birthday, then she proposed Easter Sunday. Saying that they will not remember that day as it she doesn't remember when her mom told her so it's not that big of a deal.

At least your wife is seeing her children through the fog. Be thankful for that.

Hang in there
Yep, that just drained the last ounce of mojo I have left in me...

SP- I don't know what to say. I would give a limb to hear those words come from H's mouth, or read them in an email...

let it sink in. It cannot not move her...not possible if she is human. It is, as you know, not enough in and of itself but you couldn't possibly have given her anything more generous than that.

I almost felt like you took on too much responsibility. This is her doing at this point and you know it.

Wow, just wow.

I don't know how to give a virtual hug, but I think we are all feeling you.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 03:14 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I'm not sure what it was, precisely, that caused the disk in Number 46 Mojo Butterfly Valve to fail, stuck in the valve seat and thereby allowing an unrestrained flow of mojo to escape the system, but while pushing my trolley through the Sanctified and Hallowed Halls of Modern American Supermarket, I suddenly found myself profoundly sad.

The proximate cause was a bit of WAW-mail -- nothing in and of itself particularly bad, mind you -- that mentioned the need for scheduling the Time Over Target for the delivery of Kid D-bomb.

I'd been disjointed all day, feeling overwhelmed at a comparatively simple list of tasks, mostly relating to my trip to Capitol City day after tomorrow. The overwhelm came from the disjointedness, I think, rather than vice-versa, and the disjointedness came from the looming mission, Kid D-Day, sitting there at the end of the calendar, hideous banshee grin, licking its chops, ready to devour my offspring.

And I mentioned in my reply to the WAW-gram that I was feeling disjointed, and WAW asked why.

Why?

This is, very nearly, the first time she has asked after my feelings unbidden. So I told her. And what ensued was a 7-round e-convo that was open, honest, sympathetic, non-judgmental, and....good. It resolved nothing -- there being nothing to resolve -- and it changed nothing, yet it somehow changed a lot. I was struck by the wisdom of The Jody, DB Coach Extraordinaire, who pointed out very early in the process that the only True Common Ground shared by WAW and LBS is Children (assuming, of course, there are such creatures in the house).

I wrote this:
Quote:
The very idea of what we're about to do to the children we created, and who depend on us to give their world meaning.... It's incomprehensible to me. As much as this divorce has taken over every aspect of my life, knowing what's coming - wondering what the looks on their faces will be, what the ache in their little hearts and tummies will be, how confused and frightened and abandoned and betrayed they're going to feel - that's just some next-level sh*t to cope with. And as much as I "get" all the things you've said about me failing you, I just can't get my head around this part. I feel so inhumane, so profoundly guilty that my acute case of dumb-ass man syndrome in terms of your adult needs also has to be so terribly, terribly destructive of their child-needs.

To which she replied:
Quote:
I feel the same way and, like you said, everything that happens once I walk out that door is on me. So you should give yourself a break. I know you won't, but you should.

To which I replied:
Quote:
Perhaps, perhaps, but at the end of the day I can't escape the basic responsibility that is mine and mine alone as the author of this narrative. It's inescapable, as are the effects: because the most robust studies of the effects of divorce on children suggest that what they will feel this weekend will still be producing repercussions for them as far into the future as year 2045.

My failure to love you the way you deserved to be loved, in other words, translates directly to a failure to guard and defend the hearts and innocence of my own children.

And regardless of which side of The Door you're on, the fact remains that I was the carpenter. Avoiding or trying to absolve myself of that responsibility is inconsistent with the path I've elected to walk until my sand runs out.


And it continued along. Openly. Sharing. Feelings.

It was almost as if we were married or something. But the Doing Of It, what with Number 46 Mojo Butterfly Valve stuck in the valve seat, has exhausted me. My mojo reserves are at the critical point. It's a good thing I'm leaving town -- it will make it that much harder to backslide.

I'm exhausted. I need to go to bed. With my mojo hand. Black cat bone and gris-gris, too.


Smiley,

Your words are so eloquent and so fully capture the biggest heartache of this all -- how it will forever influence the lives of the precious innocents. For it is true, while we as adults may well have failed each other, the bigger failing is in how our mistakes (which, as you pointed out, we as the LBS believe are "fixable") will forever change the lives of the ones we created. So, even if the WAW says it's on him or her, we know that's not entirely true... We DID contribute, and in that sense, we have failed. It's a terrible "truth" to face and one that is, as you are feeling, exhausting...

It's when we KNOW we are right, but that given the Paradox, we cannot right... We know the better bet would be to "work" on us for their sake, but the more we try to convince, the less likely is the WAW to see what we know is true for, as you pointed out the other day, they are just as sure that they are right... This is the tragedy of it all...

In very stark terms, we KNOW it matters on a macro level... Wallerstien and others have shown that...

Quote:
A study released in July 2002 done by Linda J. Waite, Don Browning, William J. Doherty, Maggie Gallagher, Ye Luo, and Scott M. Stanley titled “Does Divorce Make People Happy? Findings from a Study of Unhappy Marriages” analyzed data from the University of Wisconsin’s National Survey of Family and Households, and came up with some interesting results.

The study analyzed 645 spouses in the late 1980s who said they were in unhappy marriages. Five years later, they were re-interviewed.

AmericanValues.org, in its executive summary of this study, lists the following three conclusions among others:

1. Unhappily married adults who divorced or separated were no happier, on average, than unhappily married adults who stayed married. Even unhappy spouses who had divorced and remarried were no happier, on average, than unhappy spouses who stayed married. This was true even after controlling for race, age, gender, and income.

2. Divorce did not reduce symptoms of depression for unhappily married adults, raise their self-esteem, or increase their sense of mastery, on average, compared to unhappy spouses who stayed married. This was true even after controlling for race, age, gender, and income.

3. About two-thirds of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later. The unhappiest marriages experienced the most dramatic turnarounds: 78% of adults who said their marriages were very unhappy and who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later.


Despite our "truth", these truths just don't matter on a micro-level and the irony is that this "logic" only pushes the WS further away, a conundrum that forever changes the "Ghosts of Christmas Future".

Best,

AlexEN
Posted By: Sara Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 04:35 AM
Quote:
3. About two-thirds of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later. The unhappiest marriages experienced the most dramatic turnarounds: 78% of adults who said their marriages were very unhappy and who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later.


You see, it's better to be VERY unhappy than to be just regular unhappy. I think I would fall into this group.
Posted By: fb2 Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 04:36 AM
SP, Got it. I did not read your earlier posts. Its good that you are feeling the pain - I wanted to be sure you were just not making light of the entire 'sitch' to numb the pain.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 04:50 AM
Originally Posted By: Sara
Quote:
3. About two-thirds of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later. The unhappiest marriages experienced the most dramatic turnarounds: 78% of adults who said their marriages were very unhappy and who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later.


You see, it's better to be VERY unhappy than to be just regular unhappy. I think I would fall into this group.


It's an amazing statistic, isn't it? In Vegas they'd call it a "sucker's bet"... 1 out of 5 unhappy WAS will be happy in 5 years; but 4 out of 5 VERY unhappy AWAS who "do the work" will be happily married in 5 years... That's why "for the sake of the kids" is a perfectly valid reason... but for the fact that the statement alienates the WAS in the short-term, making the long-term never happen...
Originally Posted By: Sara
Quote:
3. About two-thirds of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later. The unhappiest marriages experienced the most dramatic turnarounds: 78% of adults who said their marriages were very unhappy and who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later.


You see, it's better to be VERY unhappy than to be just regular unhappy. I think I would fall into this group.


I agree Sara, but how the heck do you get the WAS to see this and believe it and not have it be "pressure"?

Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 05:06 AM
Hey Person Extraordinaire..

*hugs*

Just like Yin and Yang.. ya got the Mojo and the Ojom.

One grounds you, the other keeps you going. Allow both and you have the good days and bad, disjointed and whole, everything that life is about.

Congratulations on letting yourself feel 'it'.. for being part of such an open dialog, for expressing the ache within. It's exhausting.. but what rewards.

*hugshugshugs*
Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 05:21 AM
Smiley,

As tough as things get, just remember YOUR job as a father will never change. Hug those kids.


Useless advice:
- Even though she said you could, don't pin it all on her. Just don't get into it. They're kids. Don't dump any more of adult probs into their world. One of my friends talked about how his dad discussed all his divorce problems with him as a teen. He wishes he never heard any of it. It was just too much weight.

- Counseling sessions for the kids are a good idea. They need a place to talk it out.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 01:20 PM
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Originally Posted By: Sara
Quote:
3. About two-thirds of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later. The unhappiest marriages experienced the most dramatic turnarounds: 78% of adults who said their marriages were very unhappy and who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later.


You see, it's better to be VERY unhappy than to be just regular unhappy. I think I would fall into this group.


It's an amazing statistic, isn't it? In Vegas they'd call it a "sucker's bet"... 1 out of 5 unhappy WAS will be happy in 5 years; but 4 out of 5 VERY unhappy AWAS who "do the work" will be happily married in 5 years... That's why "for the sake of the kids" is a perfectly valid reason... but for the fact that the statement alienates the WAS in the short-term, making the long-term never happen...


Remember, every WAS believes that they are the one:

That is, their sitch is special and different and they are the one in 5 that would be happy D'd, and they are also the 1 in 5 that would unhappy staying and doing the work.

Their kids are also the statistical anomaly - the 1 in 4 (or whatever it is) that are not adversely affected by the D.

It is not that they don't believe the statistics, it is just that they choose to see the other side of the statistics ("See, some people are happier D'd!!!") and apply it to themselves.
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Originally Posted By: Sara
Quote:
3. About two-thirds of unhappy spouses who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later. The unhappiest marriages experienced the most dramatic turnarounds: 78% of adults who said their marriages were very unhappy and who avoided divorce ended up happily married five years later.


You see, it's better to be VERY unhappy than to be just regular unhappy. I think I would fall into this group.


It's an amazing statistic, isn't it? In Vegas they'd call it a "sucker's bet"... 1 out of 5 unhappy WAS will be happy in 5 years; but 4 out of 5 VERY unhappy AWAS who "do the work" will be happily married in 5 years... That's why "for the sake of the kids" is a perfectly valid reason... but for the fact that the statement alienates the WAS in the short-term, making the long-term never happen...


Remember, every WAS believes that they are the one:

That is, their sitch is special and different and they are the one in 5 that would be happy D'd, and they are also the 1 in 5 that would unhappy staying and doing the work.

Their kids are also the statistical anomaly - the 1 in 4 (or whatever it is) that are not adversely affected by the D.

It is not that they don't believe the statistics, it is just that they choose to see the other side of the statistics ("See, some people are happier D'd!!!") and apply it to themselves.


SO true!!!
And shows how desperately pathetic are spouses are to cling to any reason to justify their actions.

Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Hey dudes and dudettes. let's remember that we too are clinging to some some statistical unlikelihood that we will get our spouses back.

I think it is time to focus on the care of the kids and positive action. Just sayin'. We all know why we are here and how much it sucks.
Posted By: Coach Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 02:26 PM
Gosh if only reason and logic was all it took to fix our sitches. If our WAS could only see things differently then our M and family would stay intact.
Here's part of the LBS fog: our wives/husbands are just as scared, hurt, confused, frustrated, and impatient as us, we just can't see it. Why can't we see it- we are still holding onto unproductive and unhealthy beliefs and actions. Our spouses believe they are taking the best course of action, any talk, prayers, pressure and reasoning won't change it right now. BTDT, didn't work for me either. You have to emotionally lead thru this time.
You can't emotionally lead until you get your emotions under control and have let go of the fear, anger, and frustration you hold onto. Mojo isn't the right tool to accomplish this. It's is loving yourself first, practice self-care, examine your emotions, thoughts and feelings. Work on your physical, emotional, intellectual and emotional fitness. This about working on yourself. Cross the chasm from fear to love. You have a choice in how you handle things. To choose wisely think thru your sitch and seek understanding. What are things you can do to improve yourself and care for your beloved when things seem the darkest? This time in your life becomes a whole lot easier once you realise it's all about you. You can make a difference, you are being watched (spouse, friends, family, DBers), you will thrive once you get it, and it does matter how you handle yourself. Strength and Honor.
Cheers
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 02:32 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Hey dudes and dudettes. let's remember that we too are clinging to some some statistical unlikelihood that we will get our spouses back.

I think it is time to focus on the care of the kids and positive action. Just sayin'. We all know why we are here and how much it sucks.



I thought the purpose of DBing was not to cling to that rope? confused wink grin

But, yes, our odds are very long... But, the difference is that the bet we're willing to make (each spouse "doing the work") is a better bet than the one the WAS is willing to make.

-AlexEN
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Hey dudes and dudettes. let's remember that we too are clinging to some some statistical unlikelihood that we will get our spouses back.

I think it is time to focus on the care of the kids and positive action. Just sayin'. We all know why we are here and how much it sucks.



I thought the purpose of DBing was not to cling to that rope? confused wink grin

But, yes, our odds are very long... But, the difference is that the bet we're willing to make (each spouse "doing the work") is a better bet than the one the WAS is willing to make.

-AlexEN


Of course. But when are judging and catastrophizing, we are clinging to the rope because we think some how our being "better" is going to weigh in. It wont IMO. It is our booby prize. The best we can do, I think, is what Coach keeps espousing, love, keep working on ourselves, stop sizing up and judging the other person...

I have no where near mastered this, that is why I called it out because I want to scream too. He's BAD! And I'm GOOD! But, it isn't going to help me or my kids. Unless it compels me to take some positive action, which so far, it hasn't.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 03:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Gosh if only reason and logic was all it took to fix our sitches. If our WAS could only see things differently then our M and family would stay intact.
Here's part of the LBS fog: our wives/husbands are just as scared, hurt, confused, frustrated, and impatient as us, we just can't see it. Why can't we see it- we are still holding onto unproductive and unhealthy beliefs and actions. Our spouses believe they are taking the best course of action, any talk, prayers, pressure and reasoning won't change it right now. BTDT, didn't work for me either. You have to emotionally lead thru this time.
You can't emotionally lead until you get your emotions under control and have let go of the fear, anger, and frustration you hold onto. Mojo isn't the right tool to accomplish this. It's is loving yourself first, practice self-care, examine your emotions, thoughts and feelings. Work on your physical, emotional, intellectual and emotional fitness. This about working on yourself. Cross the chasm from fear to love. You have a choice in how you handle things. To choose wisely think thru your sitch and seek understanding. What are things you can do to improve yourself and care for your beloved when things seem the darkest? This time in your life becomes a whole lot easier once you realise it's all about you. You can make a difference, you are being watched (spouse, friends, family, DBers), you will thrive once you get it, and it does matter how you handle yourself. Strength and Honor.
Cheers


Coach,

Believe it or not, I think many above are agreeing with much of what you are saying... My purpose in writing what I did was to point out that no matter how right we think we are, it's irrelevant and counterproductive to "harp on it".

Quote:
It's an amazing statistic, isn't it? In Vegas they'd call it a "sucker's bet"... 1 out of 5 unhappy WAS will be happy in 5 years; but 4 out of 5 VERY unhappy AWAS who "do the work" will be happily married in 5 years... That's why "for the sake of the kids" is a perfectly valid reason... but for the fact that the statement alienates the WAS in the short-term, making the long-term never happen...


And, as Thinker correctly points out, they KNOW that their bet will "pan out". So, no amount of convincing will ever work. I just wrote this in an off-line exchange with a fellow DBer (one who is much wiser than I):

Quote:
The irony is that, if anything, when the WAS is where “they are”, our search for the perfect RESPONSE is more likely to backfire and to make them dig their heels in (consciously or sub-consciously)....

In a way, though, it’s not so surprising. DBers are counselled to look at ACTIONS not words; the converse is true, too, the WAS sees our ACTIONS and ignores our words.


I can't speak for Smiley, but my interpretation of "Mojo" is almost exactly as you defined what needs to be done instead of trying to convince through pressure and reasoning which don't matter in our situations. I thought a distinct component of Mojo was (although I'd defer to Smiley's definition):

Quote:
...loving yourself first, practice self-care, examine your emotions, thoughts and feelings. Work on your physical, emotional, intellectual and emotional fitness. This about working on yourself. Cross the chasm from fear to love. You have a choice in how you handle things. To choose wisely think thru your sitch and seek understanding. What are things you can do to improve yourself and care for your beloved when things seem the darkest? This time in your life becomes a whole lot easier once you realise it's all about you.


-AlexEN
Posted By: Greek Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 03:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
[Remember, every WAS believes that they are the one:

That is, their sitch is special and different and they are the one in 5 that would be happy D'd, and they are also the 1 in 5 that would unhappy staying and doing the work.

Their kids are also the statistical anomaly - the 1 in 4 (or whatever it is) that are not adversely affected by the D.

It is not that they don't believe the statistics, it is just that they choose to see the other side of the statistics ("See, some people are happier D'd!!!") and apply it to themselves.


Have to disagree with you here. I'm certain that I - as a WAS - KNEW with every fiber of my being that I would not be happy divorced. I could barely even picture it - even as I walked out of the door. The WAS knows only that in the M - as it is - she/he is sad, lonely, frustrated, and being drowned. So...they reach for a lifesaver - and move out. It didn't make me happy to leave my home. It didn't give me hope to leave my home. It didn't make me proud to leave my home. It just kept my head above water so I could figure out what I should do with my life next.

I know I said or gave the impression to my H as I was leaving that it was what I wanted, I would make it, I didn't want to be M to him. Really? How much of what we say - the WAS and the LBS - when all of the trauma is unfolding - do we mean? And how much of it is fear and anger talking? If I took everything my H said to me as we were separating and believed it as HIS truth for all time, I never would have come home. My point is, both parties communicate positions in the fog of war that neither is sure of. In fact, I'll bet that pound for pound, most WAS are as scared, sad, angry and heartbroken as the LBS.



Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 03:14 PM
[/quote]
Of course. But when are judging and catastrophizing, we are clinging to the rope because we think some how our being "better" is going to weigh in. It wont IMO. It is our booby prize. The best we can do, I think, is what Coach keeps espousing, love, keep working on ourselves, stop sizing up and judging the other person...

I have no where near mastered this, that is why I called it out because I want to scream too. He's BAD! And I'm GOOD! But, it isn't going to help me or my kids. Unless it compels me to take some positive action, which so far, it hasn't.
[/quote]

To me the point is this. We're sure we're right. So what? It doesn't matter and to think it does makes things worse. To try to convince the WAS makes it that much worse still... So, yes, work on the other stuff because, as you pointed out, our desired outcome has no chance otherwise and we, as individuals, will not grow. To me that's the realization needed in order not to size up and judge and only then can the positive action begin...
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 03:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Greek
Originally Posted By: Thinker
[Remember, every WAS believes that they are the one:

That is, their sitch is special and different and they are the one in 5 that would be happy D'd, and they are also the 1 in 5 that would unhappy staying and doing the work.

Their kids are also the statistical anomaly - the 1 in 4 (or whatever it is) that are not adversely affected by the D.

It is not that they don't believe the statistics, it is just that they choose to see the other side of the statistics ("See, some people are happier D'd!!!") and apply it to themselves.


Have to disagree with you here. I'm certain that I - as a WAS - KNEW with every fiber of my being that I would not be happy divorced. I could barely even picture it - even as I walked out of the door. The WAS knows only that in the M - as it is - she/he is sad, lonely, frustrated, and being drowned. So...they reach for a lifesaver - and move out. It didn't make me happy to leave my home. It didn't give me hope to leave my home. It didn't make me proud to leave my home. It just kept my head above water so I could figure out what I should do with my life next.

I know I said or gave the impression to my H as I was leaving that it was what I wanted, I would make it, I didn't want to be M to him. Really? How much of what we say - the WAS and the LBS - when all of the trauma is unfolding - do we mean? And how much of it is fear and anger talking? If I took everything my H said to me as we were separating and believed it as HIS truth for all time, I never would have come home. My point is, both parties communicate positions in the fog of war that neither is sure of. In fact, I'll bet that pound for pound, most WAS are as scared, sad, angry and heartbroken as the LBS.

Maybe some LBS believe they are the exception - that their sitch is different and they have one of those WAS who is just crazy, selfish and cold-hearted. That is not a bet I would make.



Greek,

Thanks for chiming in... But, in my sitch, W has said almost precisely those words (the ones that Thinker wrote). Are you suggesting that we shouldn't believe them and, at some level, isn't that counter to the understanding and listening that the two of you would otherwise encourage?

-AlexEN
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 03:20 PM
Sorry SP, getting carried away on your board... crazy
Originally Posted By: Greek
Originally Posted By: Thinker
[Remember, every WAS believes that they are the one:

That is, their sitch is special and different and they are the one in 5 that would be happy D'd, and they are also the 1 in 5 that would unhappy staying and doing the work.

Their kids are also the statistical anomaly - the 1 in 4 (or whatever it is) that are not adversely affected by the D.

It is not that they don't believe the statistics, it is just that they choose to see the other side of the statistics ("See, some people are happier D'd!!!") and apply it to themselves.


Have to disagree with you here. I'm certain that I - as a WAS - KNEW with every fiber of my being that I would not be happy divorced. I could barely even picture it - even as I walked out of the door. The WAS knows only that in the M - as it is - she/he is sad, lonely, frustrated, and being drowned. So...they reach for a lifesaver - and move out. It didn't make me happy to leave my home. It didn't give me hope to leave my home. It didn't make me proud to leave my home. It just kept my head above water so I could figure out what I should do with my life next.

I know I said or gave the impression to my H as I was leaving that it was what I wanted, I would make it, I didn't want to be M to him. Really? How much of what we say - the WAS and the LBS - when all of the trauma is unfolding - do we mean? And how much of it is fear and anger talking? If I took everything my H said to me as we were separating and believed it as HIS truth for all time, I never would have come home. My point is, both parties communicate positions in the fog of war that neither is sure of. In fact, I'll bet that pound for pound, most WAS are as scared, sad, angry and heartbroken as the LBS.



Greek--

While this may be true for just a WAS, I wonder how true it is for a WAS in an A. they think they have found true love and nothing, not even history and their kids, is going to stop them from being happy. Heck, DH told me last year he deserved to be happy. Guess his happiness is more important than creating a financial mess and putting two of our kids in counseling.

However, being the greener grass is nt as exhausting as i thought it would be and I like the new me better, no matter what DH decides to finally do in the long run.

Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Posted By: Greek Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 03:26 PM
No, I am not saying believe or not. I know even less about the truth of your sitch than you do. I'm just pointing out that your WAS are real, live hurting people - no matter what they say or do. Remember, they have been in the same unhappy marriage that you have been in. And it might be helpful ~~~ and certainly loving ~~~ to at least remember that about the person you are dealing with.

I guess this might not be a very popular pose to strike on this board - be compassionate with your WAS - the one who is ripping your family to shreds. I get that. Trust me - I get that. I just want to make the small point that the WAS is not just "script".
I too think the dynamics are somewhat different when there is an active affair involved.

Puppy
Posted By: Greek Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 03:30 PM
[quote=StrgMarvelousWmn
While this may be true for just a WAS, I wonder how true it is for a WAS in an A. they think they have found true love and nothing, not even history and their kids, is going to stop them from being happy. [/quote]

I don't know about this, SMW. Hell, like I know anything, right!? But to your question, my thought is - a floatation device is a floatation device. It could be moving out, it could OP, it could be alchohol...I don't know. Just guessing, I guess.
I will not argue that DH may be struggling at times--he does not see his OW as much as I am sure he would like, he is comfortable at home but still left, and his kids ask him every day if he is going to stay here. Last night at dinner, as he does every night, S3 asked DH if he was staying the night. DH told him no and D9 chimed in with "Daddy does not have his work clothes here." From that, D6 wanted to know why he could not go get them and come back. DH just gets quiet and does not answer them.

Unfortunately, no one from either family can figure out why DH even went looking elsewhere, much less would walk out on his family.

I do have some compassion for DH--I cannot imagine how miserable he must have felt on the inside--never letting on to anyone--that he is willing to lose his kids forever over it. But I also know that I am not to blame for his inadequacies in facing and dealing with problems, rather than running away from them.

Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Posted By: Greek Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 03:40 PM
Now SMW ~~~ I hope you trust me well enough to KNOW that I in no way suggest that the LBS has responsibility for the WAS's decisions/choices. Please, I hope no one thinks that.
No, I do not think that you do. I do know, though, that many WAS blame the LBS and I am just reasserting that I am a good person and do not deserve this.

Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Posted By: Thinker Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 04:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Greek

The WAS knows only that in the M - as it is - she/he is sad, lonely, frustrated, and being drowned...

...In fact, I'll bet that pound for pound, most WAS are as scared, sad, angry and heartbroken as the LBS.


Thanks Greek. I needed that reminder.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 05:50 PM
It doesn't do any good to argue facts with WAS. They've made up their mind despite the negativity.

Articles such as the one referred to earlier spell it out. (I had even once sent that one to WAW.)

or this:

"Happiness Levels After Divorce Decrease And May Never Completely Rebound"

"...A person's happiness level drops as she or he approaches divorce and gradually rebounds over time. But the level of satisfaction does not return to baseline (the level of satisfaction felt prior to the divorce.)..."

(sample size 30,000)

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/34970.php


Or books such as: "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: The 25 Year Landmark Study"

http://www.amazon.com/Unexpected-Legacy-Divorce-Landmark-Study/dp/0786863943



Emotionally it's hard. Financially it's hard. My WAW has seen plenty of family and friends go through awful divorces. But still they walk.

Personally I'm just not sure it does any good to try to figure out what's in their head. Wasted effort. Maybe they will come around - maybe they won't. Keep your mind on your own game.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 08:14 PM
Hi! Anyone mind if I post here? laugh

@Greek wrote:
Quote:
I'm certain that I - as a WAS - KNEW with every fiber of my being that I would not be happy divorced. I could barely even picture it - even as I walked out of the door. The WAS knows only that in the M - as it is - she/he is sad, lonely, frustrated, and being drowned. So...they reach for a lifesaver - and move out. ...I know I...gave the impression...that it was what I wanted, I would make it, I didn't want to be M to him [but] I'll bet that pound for pound, most WAS are as scared, sad, angry and heartbroken as the LBS.

Well let me see if I can help flesh Greek's insight out a bit, with the Paul Harvey "rest of the story." (Or half of the rest of the story -- our e-mail convo became a face-to-face convo late last night, but these posts are already so long as to nearly be indigestible, so let's work this one first, okay?)

Last night I gave you the first couple rounds of the Great Email Convo of 2009. It continued as follows, heavily edited for space and point-making (but, I assure you, not "spun" or misrepresented) [N.B.: what I think would be productive is if we engage with the totality of the convo and it's "mood," if you will, and not cherry-pick and take issue with specific things from WAW's POV that I think we will agree we disagree with]:

Mrs. SP: I agree that it will be horrible for them initially. I know you've read a lot but a lot of the people I have spoken to whose parents were divorced do not feel that way....DHRGF's parents were divorced and, yes, she got a divorce and so did Long-Time Girlfriend, whose parents were also divorced. But they are happy people with full lives.
Even Writer-Actress Friend, who did NOT want the divorce, says her kids are doing fine...I'm not trying to sugar coat it, but I don't think we know what is going to happen over the next year, let alone 25 years down the road. I wouldn't have objected to my parents divorcing if it made either ONE of them EVER told me that they loved me or made me feel like they did. We all live with repercussions from our childhood; I live with feeling unlovable. And our kids hear and feel love from both of us every single day.


SP: Our two points are not mutually exclusive; the fact that one is adjusted and happy - given the adjustment - doesn't mean one isn't in some way haunted by the legacy, that it doesn't inform one's life in a myriad of unknowable ways. For example, how happy and full would Long-Time Girlfriend's life be had there been family stability? ... And I'm sorry you feel yourself to be unlovable. I've always found you to be quite the opposite.

Mrs. SP: And you are the only one, which is why my decision is so difficult because I know I will be alone.

SP: I hope not -- for my sake as well as yours.

Mrs. SP: I'm not sure why it is for your sake. One of the things I had to decide was whether I would be o.k. if I never had another great love in my life. I think I will, but that doesn't mean it won't be difficult.

SP: Look at it from my POV: if it should prove true that you were to remain alone, think what a burden to carry that would be for a person who cares for you the way I do, knowing that it was I who set you on that path.

Mrs. SP: I am social. I'll socialize -- I won't be completely alone. But the last thing I want is for you (or anyone else) to feel sorry for me. I am resolved. It is what it is. I made my bed, now I have to lie in it.

SP: There's a difference between me feeling sorry for you and me acknowledging that -- whether you accept it or not, whether you're "really" alone or not, whether you drift from one man to another or become a nun or not -- I took you there. You had a home, and through my neglect of your needs and feelings I've chased you out of it. That's not "what it is." That's what it was MADE to be -- and that's a different animal altogether. I admire your sense of resolution, and I'm not going to challenge your reasoning or your commitment. You're divorcing me. I know that. But insofar as alone-ness goes, I'll simply say this: you won't have to be either kind of alone, given time, honesty, openness, and perhaps just a dash of luck.

-----
And that was the end of the e-mail convo, with SmileyBob MojoPants giving just a wee bit of a push there at the end, but when WAW came back to the soon-to-be-former-familial manse, it continued, face-to-face and remained positive and good.

But I will post on that later, because I need to blast off and get a haircut before Big Business Trip to Capitol City.

(And if anybody's in Capitol City, LMK if you want to hang out and commiserate over a brewdog (as opposed to an O'Dog) or two.)

One extra thought on @Coach above and @AlexEN on what "mojo" does or doesn't do.

It does and functions however you need it to function. The common, jokey -- and way I use it -- "Austin Powers" definition of mojo is close to attitude or style or something affected like that. That's part of it, right?

But a "real" mojo -- that is, a traditional HooDoo mojo (sorry to wax satanic, my Christian friends) is an actual good luck charm (a Mojo Hand is a little suede bag [the gris-gris]) that is "specially" concocted for a specific need. So there's a Love Mojo, a Reconciliation Mojo, a Gambling Mojo, a Get-a-Job Mojo, etc. etc. So when Muddy Waters had his "mojo workin'," he had a physical Mojo Hand that was bringing him good luck.

So for us, the way I've been using the term, your Mojo is the charm -- physical or mental (i.e., the Spiers Doctrine, the Stockdale Paradox, the heavy bag) -- that you use to get yourself focused, to do that Work to which Coach was referring.

It's NOT -- though many of you have (mis)interpreted it this way -- copping an attitude or whistling past the graveyard or pretending not to hurt. It's the Thing you have / use / say / believe / whatever that helps you get through the day. It's the Quotes Found on Divorcebusting thread. It's your Theme Song (I have a couple for different moods).

Your mojo is your Go-To when the darkness comes.
Posted By: Coach Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 08:39 PM
Quote:
Mrs. SP: I agree that it will be horrible for them initially. I know you've read a lot but a lot of the people I have spoken to whose parents were divorced do not feel that way....DHRGF's parents were divorced and, yes, she got a divorce and so did Long-Time Girlfriend, whose parents were also divorced. But they are happy people with full lives.
Even Writer-Actress Friend, who did NOT want the divorce, says her kids are doing fine...I'm not trying to sugar coat it, but I don't think we know what is going to happen over the next year, let alone 25 years down the road. I wouldn't have objected to my parents divorcing if it made either ONE of them EVER told me that they loved me or made me feel like they did. We all live with repercussions from our childhood; I live with feeling unlovable. And our kids hear and feel love from both of us every single day.

SP: Our two points are not mutually exclusive; the fact that one is adjusted and happy - given the adjustment - doesn't mean one isn't in some way haunted by the legacy, that it doesn't inform one's life in a myriad of unknowable ways. For example, how happy and full would Long-Time Girlfriend's life be had there been family stability? ... And I'm sorry you feel yourself to be unlovable. I've always found you to be quite the opposite.


Cluebird1 to SierraPapa "look for the doors to her heart, I say again look for the doors to her heart."
"I live with feeling unlovable." If your closest friend were to say that would you let the conversation go on any further without getting to the bottom of that?
"I live with feeling unlovable." Your beloved, the woman you have vowed to love, honor and cherish. The woman you have been married to for years and years tells you she feels unlovable and that's all you got?
"I live with feeling unlovable." Why do you feel that way? Tell me more......... I understand how I might have contributed to that.......... How can I help you with that?.......

Listen to the woman and reach out to her.

You are ignoring the first lines of the song. (cue Muddy Waters):
Got my mojo working but it just won't work on you
Got my mojo working but it just won't work on you
I want to love you so bad I don't know what to do
Posted By: DanceQueen Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 08:44 PM
I was just about to post something similar to Coach....

SP in your last post, you quoted WAW as saying: "I wouldn't have objected to my parents divorcing if it made either ONE of them EVER told me that they loved me or made me feel like they did. We all live with repercussions from our childhood; I live with feeling unlovable."

This is some truly deep insight into your WAW. Her parents NEVER told her that they loved her? No wonder she is messed up. How horrible is that? Also no wonder she did not want kids. She was afraid to, because she had no parenting example.

SP - I hope you take a good deep look at this clue she has given you. Not that it can solve anything, but it is definitely a direct link into her deepest feelings and fears.

And I do actually agree with her. Having divorced parents who love you and make sure you are taken care of and made to feel loved, is much better than having married parents who never make you feel loved and more specifically, make you feel UNloved.

Wow.

DQ
Posted By: DanceQueen Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 08:46 PM
And P.S....please stop it with the hoodoo. You need to ride this storm out and see where it leads you. Do not try to change the course of it in THAT WAY. Instead, just use your heart.

DQ
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson

SP: There's a difference between me feeling sorry for you and me acknowledging that -- whether you accept it or not, whether you're "really" alone or not, whether you drift from one man to another or become a nun or not -- I took you there. You had a home, and through my neglect of your needs and feelings I've chased you out of it.


MAN, SP, it sure seems like you're putting ALL (or nearly all) of the burden for HER deciding to be wayward on YOU!!!

Is this how you truly feel, or is this some sort of unilateral disarmament thing you doves like to do when confronted with an immutable force??? wink

Your hawkish friend,

Puppy
Posted By: Coach Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 09:17 PM
SP, Your W is very insecure. Think about that. Lot's of clues.
Posted By: fb2 Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/09/09 09:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
SP, Your W is very insecure. Think about that. Lot's of clues.
Granted, so? If I had to "guess" (and that's all I can do) the WAW puts their "faith" in all sorts of "fantasies" starting way before the 'bomb' was dropped (I can get my own house, be rid of H, have an A with a romantic OM who will love me, I will have peace, I can do whatever I want, life is short, so-and-so did it and is better off, etc). The LBS has little chance of prevailing despite becoming the proverbial "emotional' rock after months of recovery from the trauma of the "bomb". This is especially true if the WAW has a very broken value system, including not viewing marriage and family as "sacred" and/or a "commitment", coming from a messed up childhood, etc. There are only a very few "sitches" that are savable despite the LBS saving themselves. In most cases the WAW will not take ownership of one iota of their behavior.
Posted By: mindfull Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/10/09 12:06 AM
[quote]I admire your sense of resolution, and I'm not going to challenge your reasoning or your commitment. You're divorcing me. I know that. But insofar as alone-ness goes, I'll simply say this: you won't have to be either kind of alone, given time, honesty, openness, and perhaps just a dash of luck.[quote]

Beautifully felt and communicated...
Posted By: jaguilar Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/10/09 04:33 AM
Finally got caught up here. I laughed and cried.

What would it have hurt if SP would have reached out to hug his wife when she said she was insecure?

Just a thought - I kinda get the idea that maybe the two of you are both WAS.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/10/09 10:24 AM
Okay.....lots of things to reply to very early in the morning in Midwestern Regional Airport, with a rather tiny iPhone virtual keypad, so please forgive the misspellings.

1. @everyone - remember, you're coming into this conversation (which was via email, btw) 21 or so years in. Herself & I have discussed her feelings of unlovability many times over the years and, as you will see when I can tell the rest of the rest of the story when this nightmare of a hop ends and I can access the "real" internet, when E-convo turned into Face-2-Face convo, I didn't leave it hanging.

2. Upshot of F2F convo is that WAW is scared and feels alone. Told her she doesn't have 2 feel alone - I'll be here if she needs me. A lot of "that's ridiculous" and "you can't" and "everyone would tell you you're crazy" and "I couldn't" hand-waving to which I essentially replied that (a) I would consider it a favor if she reached out to me, (b) I don't care what "everyone" would say (by which I assume she meant the members of Team SP in the world), and (c) it does me no good and our kids no good for WAW to be lonely and sad, so anything I might do to alleviate some of that is really just selfishness on my part. So no matter the sitch, my door isn't closed though she's walking away.

3. @Gypsy(?)(can't scroll back up) - I'm not really doing HooDoo lol! Just (mis)appropriating the ideas.

4. Yesterday WAW started moving into her new home - locksmith, cable guy, a couple pcs of furniture. She asked me to see it, and I agreed. As she showed me around she cried a bit. Brought in some lunch from down the street, and as we ate she suggested / sort-of asked if I might come over for dinner once in a while when all is said and done, to which I was cautious-but-not-closed-off. And she cried a bit more, so I gave her a hug and told her it will be okay, one way or the other. She started bagging on herself - I'm such a piece of sh*t, I don't even know what I'm doing anymore. She feels "invisible" and generally hates her life. Validated, asked her not to demean herself - we're all struggling, we all have a hard fight (@Greek!), we'll just work it 1 day @ a time. I won't let you fall too far, so if you need a hand you can reach out and one will be there.

Had to leave, thanked her for the lunch, told her I'd see her before I left.

@airport, I texted her: "Nice 2 see ur new home. It will be ok. As much as u want or need I will meet u 1/2-way whenever I can.". And I turned off the phone.

When I arrived at Midwestern Regional Airport a reply text was waiting: "Ur a good man. I dont no what my problem is. Must be midlife crisis. But its a crisis definitely."
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/10/09 10:27 AM
@Puppy - right now WAW is doing a fairly good job (4 lack of better term) of attacking herself, & I dont perceive much value-added @ this time in rubbing salt in. There will be a time for recrimination, D or no D, but this doesnt feel like it. Patton in command of an inflatable army in England...
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/10/09 11:14 AM
Good morning.. and good flight..

*hugs*

While reading through your posts trying to find mine then realizing your name is on a need to know basis and I don't know what it was.. your wife keeps saying.. "I don't know how WE got here... got to this place" and cries.

Two thoughts..

Have you done the "Five Why's"? A person makes a statement. You ask "Why?" They answer that question. You ask "Why?" and so on. Quick way of getting to a basic truth.

Ready2Change will 'force' behavior.. if he wants his kids to come close to him, he pushes them away; the opposite is true.

You have no control over how far she'll fall, you have no control over how miserable she feels about herself. Here's a concept.. develop your own boundaries. People make sacrifices and compromises in their marriage, for their family. Yet what I learned post-divorce after a 25 year marriage, that by compromising myself (i.e., feeling the marriage and family were more important than me, by not having the confidence to make demands, put my foot down, make waves) my actions helped erode what was most treasured in my life - my relationship with my husband and being a family. My discontent came out in passive/aggressive behavior, feeling overwhelmed then powerless.

Setting boundaries is a skill set I've had to learn (after having a childhood of serious abuse). Guess what.. they're GREAT! It's not something you can do for her. She has to learn it on her own. However, it's a gift you can give yourself.

It's not about having the perfect answers. It's about stripping the facade. You have a woman, who was the love of your life, in an extreme situation where she's doing what her reality tells her is the right yet painful step to take.

And who are you, person of wit? It's not a question to answer here. Peel away the covert, drop the humor, shed your defenses and look in the mirror. Be real. It beats the alternative.

*hugs*
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
@Puppy - right now WAW is doing a fairly good job (4 lack of better term) of attacking herself, & I dont perceive much value-added @ this time in rubbing salt in. There will be a time for recrimination, D or no D, but this doesnt feel like it. Patton in command of an inflatable army in England...


SP,

You may be right. I'm fascinated by your sitch, pulling for you, and really hoping you guys make it. Yours is the "pure DBing" path, right down to "being their best friend and helping them move to their new place," regardless of infidelity, and I'm anxious to see how it turns out. I have ALWAYS said that the main underpinning of my "hardball" approach is that most LBSs can't handle it -- especially men -- but that if you CAN, then it's a good way to go. You seem especially equipped, thru your humor, "mojo," introspection and self-confidence, to be able to handle going this way; I don't think most people are.

Puppy
Posted By: Coach Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/10/09 02:28 PM
Quote:
SP,

You may be right. I'm fascinated by your sitch, pulling for you, and really hoping you guys make it. Yours is the "pure DBing" path, right down to "being their best friend and helping them move to their new place," regardless of infidelity, and I'm anxious to see how it turns out. I have ALWAYS said that the main underpinning of my "hardball" approach is that most LBSs can't handle it -- especially men -- but that if you CAN, then it's a good way to go. You seem especially equipped, thru your humor, "mojo," introspection and self-confidence, to be able to handle going this way; I don't think most people are.

Puppy


That's high praise from the Pupster.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/10/09 03:28 PM
@Gypsy - I have to confess I don't understand your last at all.

@everyone - unfortunately my room wasn't ready, so I'm still on the tiny. I'm having lunch @ a place WAW & I used to come to quite a bit back in the early 90's. It was odd - I was walking down the street and just sort of drifted in, not really making the connection until I'd actually sat down and ordered. Bittersweet.

During the F2F night before last, I reiterated my rejection of Herself's reasoning on the D, but that I understood that from her POV it was the least-most-painful COA. @ lunch in her new home she repeated how she shouldn't have had kids, how she doesn't fit "in the box" of the SAHM standard in our area, how she has nothing in common with the Juicy Coture Moms @ the school, how she feels lost and directionless and without a purpose in life. I validated, etc., reminded her that our deal was she wouldn't [u]have[u/] to fit in with the Juicy Moms - I'd do the lion's share of the kid stuff, and she'd be free to pursue her professional Self. Lots of "I knows" and "I don't knows" and "I just want to give ups."

For now I'm focused on the kids - the banshee creeps ever-closer. But it's increasingly clear that Herself is flailing in the darkness and needs to know there's not an empty chasm below her. But how to communicate that without rescuing, insulating her from her own Reality, or glossing over the fact that there must be consequences for decisions we make -- that's a head-scratcher.
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
But it's increasingly clear that Herself is flailing in the darkness and needs to know there's not an empty chasm below her. But how to communicate that without rescuing, insulating her from her own Reality, or glossing over the fact that there must be consequences for decisions we make -- that's a head-scratcher.


That is, indeed, the toughest dance to dance. As a parent, an employer or a spouse, how you balance "being supportive" with "not enabling" and allowing consequences to their actions to kick in. It's agonizing.

Puppy
Posted By: fb2 Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/10/09 04:58 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
But it's increasingly clear that Herself is flailing in the darkness and needs to know there's not an empty chasm below her. But how to communicate that without rescuing, insulating her from her own Reality, or glossing over the fact that there must be consequences for decisions we make -- that's a head-scratcher.
Indeed as Puppy points out. Maybe as long as you hold the fort with the door open and the outside influence (including but not limited to an OM) is minimal there is some hope she won't stray past the point of no return - like using a bungee jumping rope. But "Herself" herself mentioned "MLC" and she's in 'thick fog' so watch out for some crazy stuff down the road that may throw your mojo and/or "love of self" off track. Your taking responsibility for the children while she finds herself is an excellent move. You are very fortunate that she's not hostile towards you; it makes your job easy. Her moving out instead of you moving out is also very interesting - I wonder how that came about exactly - most of the time its the H that ends up moving out even while "DBing". [Your writing is good despite the 'tiny']
Posted By: Coach Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/10/09 05:48 PM
Quote:
@ lunch in her new home she repeated how she shouldn't have had kids, how she doesn't fit "in the box" of the SAHM standard in our area, how she has nothing in common with the Juicy Coture Moms @ the school, how she feels lost and directionless and without a purpose in life.


I would run with this too. SP, Isn't one of the things you love about her are all her differences? Show her the things she sees as unlovable are the real things you love, appreciate and cherish about her. Let her know you will support her while she struggles internally - "how can I help?"
Posted By: pollyanna Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/10/09 10:23 PM
Quote:
That is, indeed, the toughest dance to dance. As a parent, an employer or a spouse, how you balance "being supportive" with "not enabling" and allowing consequences to their actions to kick in. It's agonizing.


This is where I am at. It is so frustrating. Puppy where do you draw the line. How do I know the difference between making H responsible for his actions because they are morally wrong and in my case legally wrong and making him feel the consequences because it makes me feel good.

I am petrified of looking back at my actions and thinking I was emotionally charged not logically chardged !

My case is serious. Supreme court injunctions available, criminal charges for fraud. Once again who gets hurts - kids. As a mother I struggle with this kind of decision.
Posted By: jaguilar Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/11/09 12:43 AM
If you don't do anything then he won't stop. But what can it hurt to put a little fear in him? Or is he past all that...then it sounds like he is S.O.L.
Originally Posted By: pollyanna
Quote:
That is, indeed, the toughest dance to dance. As a parent, an employer or a spouse, how you balance "being supportive" with "not enabling" and allowing consequences to their actions to kick in. It's agonizing.


This is where I am at. It is so frustrating. Puppy where do you draw the line. How do I know the difference between making H responsible for his actions because they are morally wrong and in my case legally wrong and making him feel the consequences because it makes me feel good.

I am petrified of looking back at my actions and thinking I was emotionally charged not logically chardged !

My case is serious. Supreme court injunctions available, criminal charges for fraud. Once again who gets hurts - kids. As a mother I struggle with this kind of decision.


One hint I would have at where to draw the line would be to not do anything PROACTIVELY to put him further in jeopardy, but also not do anything to STOP inherent consequences from kicking in.

Some examples of this from my own sitch two years ago:

1) After initially exposing my W's affair to her parents, I could see that it upset them terribly, and so I no longer called them up and proactively told them things. But I made a decision that if they asked me something directly, I would never lie to them to cover up my wife's affair, and I also told my wife at one point "I will no longer lie to cover up your affair."

2) When my D-then-18 told me she wanted to confront OM at the gym where OM and my W worked, and she also asked me if I had his phone number and would I give it to her . . . I told her that I did have it, I wouldn't give it to her, but that if she saw him she should feel free to tell him anything that's on her mind and on her heart.

3) Ditto for what she should say to her mother.

Not sure if this was "correct" or not, but it helped me.

Puppy
Posted By: pollyanna Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/11/09 06:11 AM
Thanks - Sorry SP but i am at final hour and I need guidance. The consequences for H in legal matters, will be financial ruin to point of bankruptcy, stripped of directorships and removed as trustee of a trust. Chances are he will loose his business and consequently livlihood. He is in wrong but is prepared to defend it through the courts. He is cocky, happy and flaunting his girlfriend to one and all.

My option is to seek immediate settlement of matrimonial property and have him agree to no liability for me. This keeps the law out of it. He ends up smiling and haing gotten away with something that most feel is disgusting and very immoral.

Aggggh
Posted By: pollyanna Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/11/09 06:22 AM
What is S.O.L.
Sh*t out of luck.
Originally Posted By: pollyanna
Thanks - Sorry SP but i am at final hour and I need guidance. The consequences for H in legal matters, will be financial ruin to point of bankruptcy, stripped of directorships and removed as trustee of a trust. Chances are he will loose his business and consequently livlihood. He is in wrong but is prepared to defend it through the courts. He is cocky, happy and flaunting his girlfriend to one and all.

My option is to seek immediate settlement of matrimonial property and have him agree to no liability for me. This keeps the law out of it. He ends up smiling and haing gotten away with something that most feel is disgusting and very immoral.

Aggggh


Would any children be negatively affected?

Which way benefits YOU the most??
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/11/09 09:11 PM
Finally have access to a computer and internet and a keyboard. Unfortunately I've sort of lost track of the thread.

Polly -- I think because you're Down Under a lot of what's going on in your sitch is outside the envelope for those of us in the northern hemisphere. "Supreme Court injunctions" means something quite different here than I suspect it does Down Under.

As far as the main theme in your post goes, I guess you're at one of those points in time where you have to choose the least-worst outcome. Either H "wins" by getting away with something or you "lose" by going down with the ship with him.

I think your last idea was the right one -- salvage what you can now and move forward. Or you could go all Mad Max on him.... That's always an option. Not always a good option, but an option nonetheless.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/11/09 09:17 PM
Continued having the nice text exchange with WAW. As I said, she uttered the words "mid-life crisis" for the first time, having rejected that idea as completely ridiculous 3 months ago. Progress? Who knows?

Sent her a text that said I saw what she meant when she emailed me from her trip to Capitol City that there are a lot of reminders of "us" here. Mentioned that I'd gone in and sat down at one of "our" favorite restaurants without even thinking about it until after I'd ordered, it seemed so natural.

She texted back [text-ese translated]: "That was such a good time in our life. Not sure how to get back there."

I replied: "Seems to me the only way is to go one step at a time. We get along today, then get along tomorrow. Then we start getting along for a week, then a month...."

She replied: "Don't know when just getting along got so hard :-("

To which I replied: "I don't either, but that's in the past. Now is now. The future isn't written."

Then, when the Holocaust Museum shooting broke on the news I got an instant text checking to see if I was there (WAW knows I like to hit the museums for power-sight-seeing whenever I can).

So whatever "this" is, whatever "kind" of "relationship" this is, it's pretty tolerable right now.

It'll s*ck in major major ways in about 72 hours, but right now this Thing isn't too bad.
Posted By: jaguilar Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/11/09 10:54 PM
chit Out of Luck (stick an s in front of the c)

Hope I don't get in trouble...
You are a master DBer. I hope you're feeling ok...hardest thing is to stay cool as she eeks her way toward you.

You are displaying true love, patience and friendship.
Posted By: jaguilar Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/12/09 01:41 AM
SP,

This is awesome. I've got goosebumps for you SP. I'm excited and nervous.

Excited because it looks like there is a spark there...a tiny one but a spark.

Nervous, because you just don't know if she will come back or keep walking.

My prayers are with you and your family.

It's never over and always have FAITH.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/12/09 03:41 AM
Quote:
because you just don't know if she will come back or keep walking.


That's exactly right.

And I think you know what my policy is. Accept that I'm already dead.

No news to report. Busy work day. Had dinner with a woman I worked with back in the '90s here in Cap City. Good talk, awesome Italian food.

Meeting tomorrow morning, late-ish breakfast/early-ish lunch with a woman I was at college with who has a very interesting job out here, then a power-sight-seeing trip to pick up some tchotchkes for the youngsters and back to the airport. Haven't had a chance to enjoy this fine hotel room, though I did spend half an hour in the steam room. Aaaahhhhhhhhhhh. Love me some steam and sauna. Just a world of warmy oozy schvitzy goodness.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/12/09 04:32 AM
I've heard of oozing schvitz, but only YOU Smiley could come up with oozy schvitzy... My audible chuckle at reading that roused the sleeping WAW -- which isn't necessarily a good thing, as I've noticed that the WAS causes the least amount of psychic damage when laying completely dormant... wink
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
I've heard of oozing schvitz, but only YOU Smiley could come up with oozy schvitzy... My audible chuckle at reading that roused the sleeping WAW -- which isn't necessarily a good thing, as I've noticed that the WAS causes the least amount of psychic damage when laying completely dormant... wink


LMAO!!! laugh laugh
Posted By: pollyanna Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/12/09 04:57 AM
Quote:
My audible chuckle at reading that roused the sleeping WAW -- which isn't necessarily a good thing, as I've noticed that the WAS causes the least amount of psychic damage when laying completely dormant...


Ha Ha that is so funny.

No supreme court injunctions are serious serious big big big fine possible jail time action.Probably same as yours.

Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/12/09 08:59 PM
Perfectly lovely lunch today after several successful meetings (which sort of seems like a contradiction in terms!). There seems to be a growing consensus among observers that WAW is deeply in MLC. Which I've always suspected was at least partially the case. She continues to represent to gf's that she wishes she could have a "distraction" (meaning OM) and to me that she has no interest in OM. She's either fronting with her gf's, trying to save face in some sense, or she's telling me what she thinks I want to hear (but that's because she doesn't know about the Spiers Doctrine). Of course it's also possible that BOTH are true -she's not interested in OM but wishes she was.

None of that matters now, however; OM or no OM, I'll deal with that later. Right now the 25-meter target is the one I need to focus on, because that's the one who could kill me.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/12/09 09:48 PM
For clarification what/who is your 25 meter target?

1. Is it keeping up the friendiness? Keeping the positive thing going?

(excuse my lack of sleep if this painfully obvious)
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/12/09 11:00 PM
Kid D-Day
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Kid D-Day


We'll all be thinking about you. You're facing your fear and you'll be ok (but you know that)...

Truly hope it goes alright.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/12/09 11:23 PM
Thanks for that. It'll be interesting to see what WAW's mood is like tomorrow morning, having spent the entire day today with them.

And if one more person tells me " oh they'll be fine" I'll throttle them. Three adult children of divorce laid that on me this week, but their experiences are 20 or 30 years in the past, so I find their glib assurances highly suspect. And, when pressed, the woman I lunched with today admitted she hasn't had a successful long-term relationship as an adult because "if you can't trust your parents, who can you trust?" and now she can't trust men - and inevitably picks the ones who leave.

So f**k that.
Quote:
And if one more person tells me " oh they'll be fine" I'll throttle them. Three adult children of divorce laid that on me this week, but their experiences are 20 or 30 years in the past, so I find their glib assurances highly suspect. And, when pressed, the woman I lunched with today admitted she hasn't had a successful long-term relationship as an adult because "if you can't trust your parents, who can you trust?" and now she can't trust men - and inevitably picks the ones who leave.

So f**k that.


That has irked me so much. Better to be real about what it is so it can be dealt with. Anyone who says that sh*t to me immediately loses credibility...

AND, many people go through gnarly sh*t as children...I guess we have to, as parents, guide and love them through it. I struggle to not see my kids as "damaged"...I want to accept them fully and know that this is part of their path.

But, it does them no good to put on a happy face and be glib IMO. Just like my father dying, I've told my kids, "It was hard, but I got through it."

Do not underestimate how lucky they are to have you, so strong, so loving and so present for them. TCB.

That's my $2.
Posted By: jaguilar Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/12/09 11:39 PM
No sir.

My dad told my brothers and I about their divorce when we were in our 20's and my little bro was in high school. It ripped us the biggest hole in our hearts.

I've spoken to lots of folks whose parents are divorced or divorced later in life. And they were still extremely bothered and upset by it. For those to say they'll be fine. I give them the finger. They don't know or they chose to ignore it all together. Kids are resilient. BUT it still hurts to seem them in pain.

I love my step mom but still wish that my mom and dad could be up here with their grand kids like "normal" grandparents do. But I know that is not going to happen. Just a few years ago, my dad had the marriage annulled and even then it cut like a hot knife through butter.

So yes, the bomb will go as planned, but it's still a big blow to the kids. The look on my kids faces was undescribable and still hurts till this day. If I could turn back time...

My prayers are with you, Mrs. SP and those kids.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/12/09 11:44 PM
I hear you, alive.

(Feh - this doesn't bode well: 3 gate changes w/in 40 minutes.)

I think these "they'll be fine" folks equate survive with "thrive," and I find that to be problematic in the extreme. Even folks who "survived" can't know that they've thrived because they don't know what their lives would have been like otherwise.

They might well be living their "best lives" (to use a bit of Oprah-ese), but it's their best life given the fact of divorce, which is a different thing altogether.


Posted By: jaguilar Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/12/09 11:49 PM
D8 has already told me she won't get married. I asked her why and she said because my parents are D'd, one of my brothers is D'd and me and W are heading that direction. She said why bother getting married. She sounded as if it was in her blood to get D'd.

I was bothered by it. I doubt W knows what she said.
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I hear you, alive.

(Feh - this doesn't bode well: 3 gate changes w/in 40 minutes.)

I think these "they'll be fine" folks equate survive with "thrive," and I find that to be problematic in the extreme. Even folks who "survived" can't know that they've thrived because they don't know what their lives would have been like otherwise.

They might well be living their "best lives" (to use a bit of Oprah-ese), but it's their best life given the fact of divorce, which is a different thing altogether.



This stuff tortures me too. I really relate. I have, however had to make peace as best I can. We already had that conversation once with the kids in tears and now, because H is sort of half in, we'll have to hit them again with D and him officially moving out. It is cruel.

Still, SP, I know people whose parents stayed together for 30+ years in a seemingly perfect household and ended up drug addicts, or divorced themselves etc.

It is straight up retarded to say that D doesn't traumatize, it does. And the lifestyle is tough. BUT, there are so many ways to suffer in this life, as you know...

I tell you this as the woman who has pissed people off with my insistence that this is scarring my kids. I am with you. I just want you to be able to see them as just as whole after as before...it will impact the way you treat them and handle their pain.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 12:01 AM
It's the same thing as those people who justify smoking by saying, "Yeah, I had a grandfather who smoked two packs a day and lived to 90."

And that's the great thing about anecdotal evidence. It can be whatever you choose.

Real studies here:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&...amp;btnG=Search
Originally Posted By: orangedog
It's the same thing as those people who justify smoking by saying, "Yeah, I had a grandfather who smoked two packs a day and lived to 90."

And that's the great thing about anecdotal evidence. It can be whatever you choose.


Of course, but, the WAS doesn't have to justify it and this is the motherf*cking sh*t a** f*cked up, worse than getting my eyes gauged out reality. AND, why, just GAL and letting go and blah blah blah doesn't quite alleviate the pain.

So guys, we live with the pain, we love through it, we inspire our children and we stay true to who we are and THAT is something many children don't have!!! Especially from their dads. You have so much value in your sitches. Please know that.
Quote:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&...amp;btnG=Search


F*ck that sh*t right now. No one needs it anymore. We know why we're here. Seriously, it is enough to make someone off themselves...no mas por favor.

And I say that will lots of affection. grin
Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 12:13 AM
Maybe I'll share this one w/ my W who likes to tell me how bF got divorced but she turned out OK... grrrr..




Children of divorce in the 1990s: An update of the Amato and Keith (1991) meta-analysis.

Amato, Paul R.

Journal of Family Psychology. Vol 15(3), Sep 2001, 355-370.

Abstract:
The present study updates the P. R. Amato and B. Keith (1991) meta-analysis of children and divorce with a new analysis of 67 studies published in the 1990s. Compared with children with continuously married parents, children with divorced parents continued to score significantly lower on measures of academic achievement, conduct, psychological adjustment, self-concept, and social relations. After controlling for study characteristics. curvilinear trends with respect to decade of publication were present for academic achievement, psychological well-being, self-concept, and social relations. For these outcomes, the gap between children with divorced and married parents decreased during the 1980s and increased again during the 1990s. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2008 APA, all rights reserved)

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=2001-11319-001



Total sample size of the original meta-analysis was 19,000. Anecdotal evidence be damned!
Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 12:16 AM
Yes, we know why were here. Enough evidence. Back to work.




(Sorry Orangedog has a thing for research and hard facts)
Originally Posted By: orangedog

(Sorry Orangedog has a thing for research and hard facts)



Me too!!! And I showed some of it to H and he said I was projecting and my family and some friends say the same...so, I try to stop torturing myself...it is beyond our control.
Posted By: pollyanna Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 01:51 AM
Logically it makes sense that children or adults of Divorced parents dont do so well. They have to deal with issues, compete for love and time from Parents that are no longer together.

Their secure world is torn apart. There future expectations of family life is destroyed. They ahve to make decisions on almost a daily basis that children of committed parents dont, regarding juggling possible hurt feelings of parents, the need to protect a hurt parent. Often more reponsibility is placed on them as finances change, less available time from separated parents.

They have to share their time, be sure that they communicate not once but twice with parents, decide who is attending what family gatherings, deal with negative comments from well meaning dumb family members.....and so it goes on.

The only good thing possible that might come from this for them , is that as they deal with adversity in their adult lives, better than those wjho have not gone through it as they will know that you can survive, as they see their parents survive.

Remember SP that every feeling you have felt since D Day they will experiance but 10 X worse. They will be torn and will need support and room to grieve an any way they need. As small children that ay manifest itself in any form.

good luck
Yet, we are to forgive our spouses and co-parent in a friendy manner.

My mom always told me I could walk on water...we'll see.
Posted By: jaguilar Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 02:33 AM
Yea, I don't get that. We want to try, exhaust all efforts right? But my W says she can't anymore and yet I'm supposed to be supportive of her and her decision and put a smile on her face.

No way, can't do it.
somehow i doubt this is helpful to anyone...probably best for us to end this pity party.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 02:54 AM
Agreed. Instead, let's feel sorry for me. cry

It's looking possible that my flight will get scratched (already 3 hours late) and the next available out of Airport City bound for Coastal City is scheduled to depart in...18 hours. So let's PMA and keep the fingers xx'd and hope that they (a) find a pilot, (b) find the 3 missing flight attendants, and (c) keep the flight "scheduled."

Because among other things I'd hate to get back to the house at the kids' bedtime tomorrow and miss the last day that they have an intact family in their lives.....
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 03:07 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Agreed. Instead, let's feel sorry for me. cry

It's looking possible that my flight will get scratched (already 3 hours late) and the next available out of Airport City bound for Coastal City is scheduled to depart in...18 hours. So let's PMA and keep the fingers xx'd and hope that they (a) find a pilot, (b) find the 3 missing flight attendants, and (c) keep the flight "scheduled."

Because among other things I'd hate to get back to the house at the kids' bedtime tomorrow and miss the last day that they have an intact family in their lives.....


My stomach churned reading that last sentence and it made a grown man cry... That would just suck... My fingers are crossed for you...
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Thanks for that. It'll be interesting to see what WAW's mood is like tomorrow morning, having spent the entire day today with them.

And if one more person tells me " oh they'll be fine" I'll throttle them. Three adult children of divorce laid that on me this week, but their experiences are 20 or 30 years in the past, so I find their glib assurances highly suspect. And, when pressed, the woman I lunched with today admitted she hasn't had a successful long-term relationship as an adult because "if you can't trust your parents, who can you trust?" and now she can't trust men - and inevitably picks the ones who leave.

So f**k that.


Funny--my FB says that if one more person tells me that the kids are resilient, I am going to punch them. I lived it, I frickig know better than most of the naysayers wh are in happy marriages and not the product of a divorce.

Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I hear you, alive.

(Feh - this doesn't bode well: 3 gate changes w/in 40 minutes.)

I think these "they'll be fine" folks equate survive with "thrive," and I find that to be problematic in the extreme. Even folks who "survived" can't know that they've thrived because they don't know what their lives would have been like otherwise.

They might well be living their "best lives" (to use a bit of Oprah-ese), but it's their best life given the fact of divorce, which is a different thing altogether.




I completely agree, Smiley. I see the wear and tear that separation is taking on my kids. D17 is an emotional time bomb--her anger barely contained and she is on prozac--and D9 is on zoloft and struggling big time, too, with slipping into depressions on a regular basis.

Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 03:48 AM
The bomb is one thing (the kids already have an idea that something's way off), being there for the emotional fallout is another thing entirely.

That is love, that is being there, that is being a parent. Here's a prayer to all the love, hugs, tears, cuddles, quiet strength, finding laughter, being open.. the love that only one person can give them.. which comes from you. Be their rock was their emotions crash against you. Reassure them that you are not going anywhere.

Well.. really... do what works for you.. and you're a pretty incredible guy.. I figure that makes you an exponentially amazing dad.

*hugs*

About resilience.. children learn from their parents. They will learn from you. Let your love guide you from the 25 meter mark and beyond.

*hugs*
Posted By: fb2 Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 06:45 AM
You will hear a whole bunch of these cliches, if you haven't already, till you're blue in the face and every once in a while you will get very annoyed with the stupidity behind some of these "wise" saying:

"children are resilient, they'll be fine"
"time is your best friend and your worst enemy"
"you have a choice"
"the glass is half full"
"you will find someone else"
"the kids will figure it out one day"
"you need to move on"
"its only money"
"what she does is none of your business"
"be strong"
"let go"
"your lawyer needs to know that"
"are you seeing a counselor for that"
"society is not to blame for any of this its the individual"
"you must carry your cross"
"its OK for the ex to be with an OP in front of the kids as long as she's happy"
"you need to be happy"
"life is short"
...

Posted By: Gypsy Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 01:02 PM
The funny thing about cliches is the nugget of truth behind them all.

"children are resilient, they'll be fine"

Would you want them to be worse? Kids, adults adapt. First you learn to survive then thrive.

"time is your best friend and your worst enemy"

Limbo land is a terrible place to be, the waiting takes its own toll. Action builds growth.

"you have a choice"

You can do whatever you want to do. It's the 'whatever' that's tough.

"the glass is half full"

The glass is full.. of water, air.. things you can and cannot see. However, I've always hated that one.

"you will find someone else"

Yep.. this one sucks. What does finding someone else mean when the focus is on keeping the children whole. Then again when you do find someone else, the focus goes outward, forward, not inward.

"the kids will figure it out one day"

And they do.. it's human nature. There's no reason to tell them the injustice. After all, saying bad things about their parent always comes back to bit you in the ass."

"you need to move on"

How is that different than detaching?"

"its only money"

One thing I learned is that material goods are 'stuff'. The intangibles.. the love of your children, being with them, being a good person.. that makes life worthwhile.

Knowing that 'it's only money' let's you know when it's time to walk away.


"what she does is none of your business"

You have no control over what she does. If you focus on her (or him) you give them prime real estate in your brain then all that good energy in you is wasted and drains you.

"be strong"

Yep.. what would you rather be? What works better.. being stronger or weaker?

"let go"

Look what clinging got you.. Oh here's a new one: "Treat him/her like a dog that broke free of its leash. It's going to run away, like the wind but it always returns."

"your lawyer needs to know that"

That's a new one. You control how much your lawyer knows.

"are you seeing a counselor for that"

Everyone has to process trauma that goes on with living. Would you rather do it early on with the right tools working with an unbiased professional or roll the dice. If your leg breaks, do you set it yourself? What's wrong with giving your psyche the same respect and care?

"society is not to blame for any of this its the individual"

What in the heck does that mean (and that's new one)? Some trends are good.. some are not so good.. some are just plain unfair. It is amazing how quickly a marriage becomes a financial statement once a spouse decides they want out. How delicate relationships really are.

"you must carry your cross"

Oh goodness, just shoot me now! If you're living a life of regrets, by all means carry that cross and make sure it has plenty of splinters! You choose your own happiness and/or level of misery.

"its OK for the ex to be with an OP in front of the kids as long as she's happy"

You have no control over her actions.

"you need to be happy"

Well.. needing to be happy is not an absolute.. and you choose daily how you feel.

"life is short"

Our life is a blink in the eye for those big ole redwood trees, and eons compared to a mosquito's. What you do is all your choice.
...

The one I used to hate the most was "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

I listen to the nuggets of truth around me, try to grow and thrive.

*hugs*


...sending caring, support, empathy and the strength to carry on to the Smiley Man...
Posted By: Kettricken Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 04:04 PM
You're in my thoughts today, Smiley.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 07:33 PM
Thanks, Kett, but tomorrow -- the 14th -- is the Big Day. Today is "just" the "anniversary" of MY bomb.

Managed to get back to Coastal City at dawn and slept a couple hours. Kids are in the midst of "projects" -- scary word, coming from a 6-year-old!

WAW and I had a brief talk; she'd spent the day yesterday with the kids and was relating how much she struggles to mother S9. I listened and validated and said that this was one reason why from my POV we should not give up this partnership so readily -- marriage / divorce isn't always about "we're so different" and "we have nothing in common" (see cliche discussion above).

Sometimes, given circumstances, marriage is (or, from my POV at any rate should be) about "thank the gods we're so different, because I can't do X but you can." To her credit -- and this is a change -- she didn't disagree with that evaluation.

She then related story about Old College Friend and OCF's husband, with whom she and the little Persons spent the day yesterday, who went through Real World Traumas -- cancer, head injury to child, etc. etc. -- and their experience in counseling and getting close to divorce and moving away from divorce. WAW sounded vaguely...well, if not "open" to counseling then "not closed" to counseling.

(And here let me say that some of you have given me, from my POV, far too much credit for my "DB'ing." While I appreciate the support and the accolades, much of WAW's movement "back" -- if, indeed, there is any -- seems to me to have been generated by WAW and the interventions of outside trusted agents, like OCF, who lead her to re-evaluate (or at least re-look) some of her beliefs and decisions.)

At any rate, I decided to take a shot and quietly suggested that maybe we might consider couple's therapy after she moves out. Even if it just makes us a better divorced couple, I added, it can't hurt for us to see who we are now and what has happened to us.

WAW: "I'm not opposed to it, but after a little time. Things are just too crazy right now." So okay - that's not a bad answer in the grand scheme of things. She needs space; she needs time; she needs to persevere in her course-of-action and not be thwarted by He Whom She Is Trying To Escape.

The real problem (she said) is that she's "numb" -- as she put it, "That wall I built? I thought it was just for you but I think it might actually be against everything." And this makes her afraid that she might in fact never love again. She's not afraid of living alone (i.e., single) but she is afraid of never having love again.

Listened, nodded, validated, said gently "you are loved by lots of folks" but otherwise didn't contradict (I knew she was referring to romantic love, and she knew I knew), didn't rescue; just left it there for her to cope with.

------------

As I've played catch-up here with the threads, I notice a recurring leitmotif from some of our colleagues concerning my "deadness" (the Spiers Doctrine). Some seem to regard this as really next-level stuff. So let me have a whack at clearing it up.

I'm not "dead" to my wife or "dead" to my marriage [or, perhaps more accurately, those things aren't "dead to me" in the way we use that phrase], but I'm acting AS IF my fate is cast. Some have suggested there's a risk there of self-fulfilling prophecy (as did Nice Woman Friend I had lunch with yesterday -- yesterday? yes, yesterday -- oy, that seems a loooonnng time ago LOL!). That I won't be active in The Work.

Those are two different phenomena, at least from my POV. Doing The Work, as so many here point out on so many threads is AAM -- All About Me. If The Work produces an effect on the D in the putatively desirable direction, that's value-added. But the purpose is self-improvement.

For me, the Spiers Doctrine -- your only hope is to assume you're already dead -- is a coping mechanism, no different (if blunter) than Coach's Stockdale Paradox.

This struck me when I was stocking up on donuts last night (preparing for a sleep in the airport) and a little card fell out of my wallet. It would appear that I've been much more influenced by Spencer Johnson's recent book, Peaks and Valleys, than I have been aware of.

It's a small book -- 1, 2 hours' reading (which is an irritant, by the way, since it's hard-cover and therefore pricey) -- but smart in a way that seems to have mattered for me.

The sub-title is very informative, and the more I think about it the more I recommend it for @aliveandkicking and @Thinker and @orangedog and those others who have really helped me construct or re-evaluate My Way.

The sub-title is: Making Your Good and Bad Times Work For You -- At Work And In Life. Which, you know, sort of seems apt to our situations.

The book also gives you this nice little tear-out wallet card that summarizes the main learning points, and that's what fell out of my wallet whilst I was stuffing my carry-on with the life-sustaining Sugary Treats.

In the book, Johnson tells a little parable about peaks and valleys and points out that we often don't know the answer to this question: Is this the top of the valley or the bottom of the peak? And since we don't know, why assume the worst?

But one doesn't want to be a Dr. Pangloss, tutoring Candide, right? So Johnson writes:

1. To manage your good and bad times, Make Reality Your Friend. Whether you are on top of a peak or at the bottom of a valley, always ask: What is the truth in this situation? and then proceed accordingly. So with respect to my sitch, the truth is that WAW wants a divorce, has filed for divorce, is moving out in 2 weeks, and intends to seek a divorce.

Now there's other truth, too -- she's conflicted, she's confused, she is increasingly receptive to my expressions of caring -- when we were at her house earlier in the week and she was crying I found myself quite unconsciously doing a little physical touch thing that I've always done to comfort her -- very intimate -- and she didn't react negatively or pull away or anything.

But the top-level truth, the macro truth, the main truth is: Going to the Big D, don't mean Dallas. Okay. I can handle it.

Johnson says that the way you get out of a valley is to "Find and Use the Good Hidden in a Bad Time," because "valleys end." How? (Everyone's Big Question hereabouts!) Johnson says -- and this should sound familiar, sports fans -- "Get outside of yourself: be of more service at work and more loving in life." In other words, Get A Life!

How do you find peaks? You do what he calls "following your Sensible Vision." That's a whole discussion, and I don't want to copy it here because it's not mine to copy, but suffice it to say your Sensible Vision -- as opposed to, say, a Hopeful Vision or a Romantic Vision or a Dream Vision -- is a plan of action based on accepting Stockdale's Brutal Reality or the Spiers Doctrine: "Given that I am getting a divorce, what / how can I do / proceed / achieve....?"

It's what I often call choosing the Least-Worst Outcome (LWO) in situations where (as @pollyanna often notes) it's difficult to see anything other than an Upside For WAS and Lifetime Suckitude For LBS.

If we assume that there are a number of possible outcomes to our situations, even if it is simply a number of outcomes that are simply variations on divorce, which of them is the least-worst from the LBS's POV?

(If you want to look at it a different way, what is the most-positive outcome, though I personally don't want to link "positive" and "divorce" in that way. Or if, like @orangedog, @AlexEN, @Thinker, and @Coach, you're engineering / mathematically minded -- not to avoid mentioning our women colleagues, who might be just as mathematical -- you can think of it as a minimax decision strategy.)

For me, as you've seen, the LWO is Friendiness. It's not denial, though some of you seem reluctant to accept that assertion. Yes, I'm hurt. Yes, I'm sad. Yes, WAW "wins" and I "lose" in some macro sense of the terms. Yes, kids are hurt. Yes yes yes and yes to all the empirical data @orangedog was referencing above.

But. Stockdale. Spiers. Peaks and Valleys. GIVEN THAT hurt / sad / loss / etc., what is the maximal outcome I can hope to achieve? (In game theoretic terms, how can I minimize my maximum loss?)

Friendiness does that for me. It assures me that WAW will not sink into darkness and therefore be available to our kids. It assures me that the kids will see me not-hate their mother and therefore not challenge their love for her. It assures me that I am modeling sound leadership and coping for them. It assures me some-something-of-a-connection with a woman I've known nearly my entire adult life. And it assures me a window through which I can continue to spy out opportunities to DB.

Now that's not everyone's sitch; I get that. Maybe Friendiness won't work in @pollyanna's sitch. But the Friendiness attitude -- Taking The High Road -- certainly can't hurt her. It certainly can't make her a worse-off person and, given the worst outcome for her, it at least minimizes the effects somewhat because she'll always have the thought balloon that says "I am so much better than you, H."

I want my skies to be blue. If it happens to be the case that WAW gets to enjoy that nice day too, then so be it. Her enjoyment of sunny, blue, and 72 doesn't diminish mine. So why not share? It's good for toys; it's good for happiness.

And that's Johnson's final teaching point in Peaks and Valleys. To stay on top of a peak longer, there's no better recipe than to "help people make good and bad times work for them, too."

So I think that's why I'm doing what I do. Then again, I could just be a lunatic. crazy
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/13/09 08:11 PM
Mathematically-inclined as I am wink , I had forgotten about that book...

I think about cheese whenever Johnson's name comes up, but two other parables from that book are worth mentioning too...

The first one, which sounds a lot like the message that @Coach or @ForestGump consistently set forth, is... The path out of a valley appears when you choose to see things differently.

And, profound in its simplicity, a lesson we are all learning...
The pain in a valley can wake you up to a truth you have been ignoring.

...as it appears almost universally that each of us has realized our own "flaws" have contributed, at least in part, and not to condone the WAS's behavior, to the situations in which we now find ourselves...

Once we're awakened to that truth and DO choose to see things differently, we can leave the valley on our own...

Posted By: Gardener Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/14/09 12:04 AM
SP,

There's so much gd wisdom in that post, that I gotta read it a few more times to get it all and hopefully become a "lunatic", myself smile.

But in the meantime, I just took a break and went over to Borders and picked up Peaks and Valleys. Thanks. And thanks to whoever it was/they were who mentioned Hold on to Your N.U.T.s...picked that baby up, too.
Posted By: Sara Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/14/09 12:58 AM
Some advice for tomorrow...if possible. When you tell the kids how things will be, don't be definitive. Life is change. And what's decided today and can change over time. I recommend that the kids be apprised of what the short-term future holds, and let them know that the longterm future is still uncertain.
Posted By: antlers Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/14/09 01:43 AM
I'll have good thoughts for ya' SP. When we told our kids, it was an awful experience. But we maintained our composure. She talked to them first, with me sitting there...and then I talked to them, with her sitting there. I let my wife know ahead of time that I would not lie to our kids; I would not tell them that I wanted this, or that I was OK with it. And I didn't. I let them know, with her sitting there, that I did not want this, that I was not OK with it...and I was very sorry that it was happening. Kids are innocent victims in a thing like this. Decisions are made that affect their little lives adversely...for the rest of their lives...and they have no say-so in the matter. Kids are resilient...but it affects them in a bad way and there is no getting around it. The spouse who is leaving the relationship convinces themselves that they are doing nothing wrong, and that the kids will be fine. There is certainly a selfish side to the WAS as they only take themselves into consideration...they put their needs and wants above anybody else...including the children. That's just the way it is. It's a hard thing, especially when their are kids involved. Again, I'll have some good thoughts for you SP. Be dignified and strong my friend.
Originally Posted By: Sara
Some advice for tomorrow...if possible. When you tell the kids how things will be, don't be definitive. Life is change. And what's decided today and can change over time. I recommend that the kids be apprised of what the short-term future holds, and let them know that the longterm future is still uncertain.


SP, are you guys telling the kids tomorrow? I must have missed that. If so, my earnest prayers are with you, my bruthaman. Just speak the truth, in love, and you cannot go wrong. Don't overpromise.

Puppy
Posted By: fb2 Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/14/09 05:12 PM
While the "friendship" paradigm may be your best shot at minimizing your losses sometimes I wonder if it enables the WAW to walk away more esasily. They may even say "let's be friends" or "amicable D" or "you're better off without me" or something like that. Often there's an OM and they also want to be "friends". Ya, right!? But maybe your 'sitch' is mild in comparison so its OK to "hope" (though you also seem to be playing the dead march).
Posted By: Kettricken Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/14/09 08:13 PM
Read an article by John Le Carre called "The Madness of Spies" or something like that in an old New Yorker today; thought of you.

You figure out whether it was the author or the title; graveyard grin.

Seriously. I can't even imagine. My prayers are with you today.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/14/09 10:31 PM
It could have been worse.

I could have taken my Ka-Bar and gutted them.
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
It could have been worse.

I could have taken my Ka-Bar and gutted them.


So sorry, Smiley. My heart, as does yours, I am sure, aches for your babies.

Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Posted By: GFI2 Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/14/09 11:07 PM
Smiley - I haven't had time to catch up with your developments apart from the last few posts - which I will do shortly - but I see that D-Day for you and your kids is imminent - my heart and best wishes come to you for this - one of the most difficult things you will ever face...

What I can offer; having gone through a similarly difficult thing a year ago...is that if you're BOTH strong in your love for your children and if you DON'T FOLD under the pressure of the situation you can carry it off with dignity...and that's the way to go...have you both got a "story" you can carry off? Smiley - this is going to be one of the most difficult things you have ever done...but you can do it...with honour, dignity and grace...

The important people here are your kids...not you, not your W...

But the way you deal with this is tremendously important...it sets the scene for your kids...as I'm sure you realise.

I don't know if this has happened or not yet - cos of clocks...!

My very very best wishes and love to you...

Best - and KBO -GFI

Posted By: Gypsy Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/14/09 11:21 PM
One step at a time,
One day at a time..

You're their dad,
You're their rock,
You're not going anywhere.

*hugs*
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
It could have been worse.

I could have taken my Ka-Bar and gutted them.



I wanted to impale myself. I really feel for you. Know that they will smile and laugh and live and of course lean on you...

The only way is through.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/15/09 12:31 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
It could have been worse.

I could have taken my Ka-Bar and gutted them.


I cannot think of anything more painful to do than to have this conversation with the precious innocent bystanders, knowing that this is not what they deserve. They didn't pick us as parents...
Posted By: pollyanna Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/15/09 01:15 AM
Quote:
Now that's not everyone's sitch; I get that. Maybe Friendiness won't work in @pollyanna's sitch. But the Friendiness attitude -- Taking The High Road -- certainly can't hurt her. It certainly can't make her a worse-off person and, given the worst outcome for her, it at least minimizes the effects somewhat because she'll always have the thought balloon that says "I am so much better than you, H."


Thank you SP - let me know when your ready to remarry. LOL

My thoughts right now is that we, on these boards are here because we know how to love. Our WAS cannot of loved us or our families as they should. Love is not selfish ..... etc.

I really get the saying

'Better to of loved and lost , than never too of loved at all '

Thoughts are with you and the kids. This day is one they will remeber there entire life. You handle yourself with that in mind.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/15/09 05:03 AM
Smiley,

When I'm with my kids, I make sure it's just us in the world. I just try to push the outside craziness away and make the time rich. That job never changes.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/15/09 01:26 PM
I'll post later on the pre- and post-Kid-D-bomb convos I had with WAW.

The kid stuff itself is off-limits, so don't bother asking. Among other things, there just aren't words....

MODS -- Can we get rid of these "mood" emoticons or at least have a "null" option?
So sorry.
We're here when you are ready.

Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/15/09 05:44 PM
So WAW and I had a couple of longish convos yesterday. She's pretty broken up about the kids' reactions, as you can imagine, so I at least take this as a sign that @Greek's earlier comment about the fact that LBS's tend to underestimate the struggles (some) WAS's face was largely correct. I did my usual thang -- validated, smiled and waved, told her I'd do whatever I could and she was comfortable with in terms of helping her cope, but I didn't let her off the hook during the Kid D-Bomb.

At least as she expresses it to me -- and while it could be all part of some dastardly master plan I don't think she's that good of an actress -- she feels pretty much dead to the world. She's done with Signore Schmuckatelli, to the extent there ever was a "there" there, and she's started using my language and my version of L'Histoire du Smiley's Person in talking to people about our sitch -- which I also take as something of a victory, insofar as it suggests (suggests) that the fog is thinning, if not lifting.

I am decreasingly blameworthy for her Walk the way she now tells the story, and it is increasingly a joint failure to cope with serious stressors in our marriage. So I take that, too, as something of a victory.

And it hasn't hurt, apparently, that Smiley's Person has attracted more than the occasional glance from the Female of the Species. @robx's brief on behalf of jealousy seems, in this instance at any rate, to hold more than a shade of truth.

She's accepting some Friendiness hugs and hasn't reacted negatively to some otherwise unthinking physical expressions of care -- little things I always did -- and she keeps asking "how can you?" when "you're still in love with me?"

To which I replied -- Whoa, there, Keemosabe! No one said anything about "in love" hereabouts. Yes, it's true that I love you; you are, after all, the mother of my children. But let's not get delusions of grandeur here -- ol' Smiley's Person isn't sitting 'round, pining away, plucking daisy petals. Thanks to this sitch, I don't find it all-that-hard to imagine myself with any of a number of women.

Which she didn't like to hear, but which I liked saying -- not least because it's true. And it didn't kill the convo or her openness to me -- it just sort of woke her up to some realities. Like the Reality that, on average, it appears that I'm actually doing rather better at this whole "D" thing than she is. Which has got to be a kick in the pants.

So the Friendiness continues. And I keep leveling my sights at those 25-meter targets.
Posted By: Coach Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/15/09 06:51 PM
Quote:
That, too, was difficult for me to get my head around. It was The Fear that had me in its grasp -- I was running. Running from everything. Fearful that any given thing I would do would "ruin it" and be the "final straw."

Until it dawned on me one day that it had already been ruined! That the final straw had already been stacked! How much worse could it get?

And when I stopped being afraid, things got better. Not "marriage" things, mind you -- me things. Which was something else I finally got my head around.

I was not my marriage.

My marriage was not me.


You are now officially a "Snake Killer." DB Special Forces.

Glad for you brother, pay it forward.

Cheers
Coach
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/15/09 07:27 PM
Quote:
pay it forward

Doing what I can; doing what I can.

A non-virtual (AKA, "real world") fellow with whom I hadn't spoken in 2 months noticed the difference in my voice and outlook after a longish telconvo this morning. "How'd you know," he asked, "when you were going to make it?"

That was a very good question. I didn't have an answer, but now, as Miles Davis' live recording of "My Funny Valentine" comes to an end on iTunes -- something I could not possibly have listened to 2 months ago, and something which I was sure I deleted from my playlist -- I know what the answer is.

When I started to hear -- really hear -- and enjoy music again, that was when I'd crossed the Rubicon, that I was what Coach, as an old BUFF hand, will understand by the term "committed." There was no going back; I was on that path that exists for my steps alone.

And I'm content there.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 04:16 AM
The boy-child continues to cry. He continues to ache. He crawls up in my lap and wilts.

The girl-child is in some other dimension. It's just not real to her.

The WAW puts on a brave front, then retreats upstairs to the master bed to cry or Facebook 'n' cry or e-mail 'n' cry. And I, N.U.T.S.-bearing Vessel of Manly Assurance, knock gently, enter, wrap my arms around her, and let her cry. "I'm a piece of sh*t; I'm a piece of sh*t; I'm a piece of sh*t."

No, you're just someone who's hurting; who doesn't know what to do; who doesn't know which way is up.

"How can you say these things? I s*ck. I'm trash. I'm so empty inside. I'm dead."

SP's Thought Balloon: Yeah, we're both dead.

SP's Voice Balloon: One step at a time. Okay?

"I'm falling. I'm falling."

You won't fall too far. You're not working without a net. {Wipes away the tears, takes her face in his hand, looks into her eyes}: You're not alone. Now clean up and go be good for those kids.

And then Smiley's Person retreats to the Cave of Manitude, kills an oil can of Foster's Lager, chews an Ambien, and awaits Phlegyas to bring his boat across the River Styx, to drift into another night's flitting, sleep-like state.

T.S. Eliot and me, homez. We were not Prince Hamlet, nor were meant to be. To sleep -- but not to dream; ay, there's the rub, if in that sleep of death no dreams at all may come --

'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished.
Chills.

She would never be able to really feel this if you were distracting her with your drama. You are providing perhaps the only opportunity for her to experience this in real time. You are absolutely husbanding beyond anything I've ever seen or heard of in a sitch like this...be you and I wish you pleasant dreams; they will come again...
Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 05:07 AM
You're doing great through such a challenging time.
Posted By: jaguilar Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 05:12 AM
One day at a time my friend...
Posted By: goingtofixME Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 08:00 AM
Through tears running down my face, I type. I wish you such peace in your heart and mind. May it find you when your eyes are open and continue when they are closed.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 12:14 PM
Those are very kind things to say, all, but perhaps misdirected. I'm just being a selfish pr*ck.

Today is WAW's birthday, and last night (this morning?) I could hear her through the bedroom door doing that huff-puff thing you do when you're sort of half-hyperventilating and trying not to cry, so in I went -- neither sleep nor dreams for SP, a mixed blessing -- sat beside her on the bed, talked her off the ledge, stroked her hair, and kissed her forehead and sent her back to the arms of Morpheus.

Yes, I comfort WAW and hold WAW and let WAW cry on my shoulder.

But it's all selfish. Because I'm On My Path. I don't Hate. I don't Fear. I don't Resent. And I don't Leave. I Hold Up My End -- because she can take happiness, she can take marriage, she can take the kids' sense of home and hearth, but she can't take that.

That's what I declared in The Smiliest Manifesto, anyway; that's how I said I was going to pay it off, those years of lousy husbanding (and b.t.w. that's a great gerund, @alive), and that's how I was going to pay it forward. That's how I roll.

So now I have to live it, right? I knew it would cost me. I knew I'd be confronting the pain head-on -- that I'd be welcoming the pain, inviting it in for a drink, letting it wash over me, full-immersion baptism, born again and hallelujah.

Oye vatos -- okay, put up or shut up; money, meet mouth.

(Cue the Chairman of the Board): So. So and so and so, he said, drawing breath. So if I don't roll My Way in crisis, when it hurts the most to do it -- if I don't roll my Way even with the woman I love in my arms, head on my shoulder, her tears rolling down my neck, body pressed against mine and accept that she's leaving, that I'll never feel that body pressed against mine again forever, and still comfort her, still Do. My. Job, no matter what it costs me to do it -- then what use am I to myself at all?

So I thank you for the support and the compliments, but really at the end of the day it's just me, Jack Horner, sticking a thumb in a pie and saying, "What a good boy am I."
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 12:44 PM
@alive, orange, jaguilar, GTFME.

Rocks. You are.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 12:59 PM
SP,
Call it selfish, call it anything you'd like.
But you, sir, are an inspiration.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 01:12 PM
Gardener, that's another nice thing someone has said to me.

But from my POV you're the inspiration. Words are words are words. If you impart meaning to them, you're inspiring yourself. And that, sir, is what I like to call "mojolation."
Posted By: mindfull Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 01:29 PM
SP - Great stuff. Horrible current reality.

Is this what it feels like to grow?
Posted By: goingtofixME Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 01:32 PM
Inspiration is something that comes from living a life that no matter how painful it gets at times you embrace it at some point in your life and become. You have times that you were not the you that you are meant to be for whatever reason, but you do not settle and remain. You perservere through the pain with acceptance for your part and understanding of the part your partner has played and because of this you become YOU. I am whole heartedly sad that you are going through the pain, but I am inspired and awed by your becoming. And that sir, is why so many find you to be an inspiration. smile

Love, peace, and chicken grease!
Shawna
Posted By: Thinker Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 01:44 PM
SP, you are a rock!

One minute, one hour, one day at a time! - right back at you!!

Your kids and your W are phenomenally lucky!

Take care of yourself as well.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 03:32 PM

Yeah, what @thinker said^

…and not just any rock… The Rock of Gibraltar

Quote:
Those are very kind things to say, all, but perhaps misdirected. I'm just being a selfish pr*ck.


You are anything but selfish; you have figured out who you are and how you need to comport yourself (“to roll”) in a manner that is true to you. At the end of the day, that is what we are all trying to do.

You seem to have absorbed Peaks and Valleys through some highly catalyzed osmosis process (the Ambien and Fosters mix?)… The pain in the valley may have woken you up to many truths about you and about life, but Smiley, while it’s an interesting way of framing how you choose to roll, it ain’t selfishness… and you’re outnumbered (@alive, @orange, @jaguilar, @GTFME, @gardener, @mb, @thinker and @me)… [Not to mention you sound too much like @thinker when you self-effacingly dismiss how inspiring you are to others, but I digress.]

While you may be ruing your past husbanding efforts, by becoming that Rock, your future fathering (or partnership co-parenting even if friendiness results in more)can be what it needs to be for your beautiful daughter and son (I finally got it right, mea culpa redux for the “sons” faux pas). From the outside looking in, it looks like that 25M target may have led you to find that place to roll in order to “be there” for your kids – the exact opposite of selfishness. As horrifying as this weekend was (and the guilt you carry for your role in “failing” them), they are lucky to have a father who will always care.
Alex, that was a beautiful post.

Puppy
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 04:51 PM
MORE nice words. Let me clarify, though, that when I say "selfish" I mean doing what is good for me. If it happens to be good for others, produces a Gooditude Externality, well that's okay, too. But if it's not good for me it can't be good for S and D. So selfish. Or self-focused. Or self-referential. Oh what the hell? It's All About Meeeeeeeee!

---Update---

As we were whispering in the dark last night / this morning, between sobs Herself asked one of those rhetorical-but-not-really-rhetorical questions wives seem to take a class in asking.

"How can you say you care? You don't act like it."

On cross-examination, Herself explained that she was feeling ever-more alone, ever-more-likely to remain alone, feelings made manifest by the apparent lack of interest in her by real Other Men, as opposed to the benighted Signore Schmuckatelli, whom Herself seems to despise now even more than I ever did, and my evident attraction to, and attraction for, Other Women.

{Now lest ye get the wrong idea, I have in fact been "out" with several women. These aren't "dates," but we've been, as they used to say, "walking out." Interesting women who seem to think I'm a rather interesting fellow. Meals, chats, laughs, and perfectly-respectable-in-public fare-thee-wells. No "second" dates or anything like that. Herself seems to be turning them into Second Marriages for Smiley's Person, and I'm content to let her stew just that much about them -- I mean, I'm no Saint. A plateful of fresh Schadenfreude is an enjoyable thing every now and again. But betwixt you and me and the firewall, friends, they're really simple acts of human engagement that happen to cross gender lines. But they're good practice, just in case. Hope, after all, is not a plan.}

Well, says I, if you remember after our first big To-Do there in my office (cf, Thread 3 or so), you promised that you'd be open to the possibility that there is a future between us if and only if I'd be open to the possibility that "this" -- you, us -- is not really what I want. Do you remember?

"Yes."

So how'm'I going to know, if I don't walk-out with some ladies? You know me – it can’t be helped. Poor things are powerless -- I'm studly. Wattaryagonnado? {We both laugh.}

“I’m not. No one’s interested in me.”

Now you know that’s not true.

“What do you mean?”

Hey. Enough, okay? You’ve caught me looking at you.

“I don’t mean that way.”

I don’t either. And you know that, don’t you?

“Still. You're the only one. And that’s not the same as caring.”

I thought you said you weren't interested in that? You don't want "all that stuff."

(Deep breath) Are you asking if I care? Because if you are... I do care.

She pauses. "I would have thought you'd fight for it if you did."

SP's Thought Balloon: Whoa! What the h*ll was that? Anyone see where that shot came from?

(This is one of those Divorce-Busting Moments. [I think. Maybe. Is it? Hard to tell. It's dark in here. And I'm not wearing my glasses. Plus I'm distracted by having to constantly rearrange my bathrobe. I mean, you know, let's face it. I'm in bed. With WAW. Who doesn't sleep in much. There are certain, ah, "hydraulic" events that one cannot control which, though ordinarily quite happily experienced at this advanced age, nevertheless seem somewhat inappropriate in this particular context.]

(Okay, so it's time for Smiley's Person to deploy his forces. Sergeant Rock, move Easy 50 meters down that berm. Sergeant Fury, take your Howling Commandos over by that wall. Sergeant Bilko, have your people bring us up some extra ammunition. Sergeant Preston, you just go back to the Yukon -- this is War Between the Sexes, son, it ain’t Canada.

(Troops arrayed, Smiley’s Person touches his mojo. Black cat bone in a gris-gris bag. Got my mojo workin’. Will it work on you? He gets off the edge of the bed, comes around, and stands very close to WAW’s head, hands close to her body, as he leans in to her ear.)

Do you want me to fight for it?

“Well, yes. {Beat} Well. I mean. I did. You could have. You just let it go. But now. Well. I mean –“

What makes you think I haven’t been?

(Silence. WAW literally shudders and pulls the blankets close around her.)

Don’t be afraid. I’m not standing in your way. But don’t mistake my acceptance of things with a desire for those things. Do you follow?

“Yes. But what happens if I wind up alone?”

(Helloooooo, Deep End. Into your waters I plunge.) That’s a chance you’ll have to take. It’s Your Path, not mine. I’m not blocking the exits. You can leave. In a way I want you to. You’ve said that in spite of everything this is what you need. Okay – get what you need. I want you to know how it feels, the bad and the good. Maybe it will be the best thing you ever did. Hell, maybe it’ll be the best thing you ever did for both of us. Neither of us is going to know until we know. But you won’t ever really be alone. Because you’ll always know that there is one man who cares about you and who cares about what happens to you.

“Will I know that?”

C’mon, who are you trying to kid? You know that already.

“And if I know that, what happens if you’re not alone?”

Then, my friend, it will suck to be you.

(And Smiley’s Person kisses Mrs. SP on the forehead and sends her back to sleep.)

And that, Mr. Harvey, is the Rest of the Story.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 05:09 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Let me clarify, though, that when I say "selfish" I mean doing what is good for me. If it happens to be good for others, produces a Gooditude Externality, well that's okay, too. But if it's not good for me it can't be good for S and D. So selfish. Or self-focused. Or self-referential. Oh what the hell? It's All About Meeeeeeeee!


So, it's kind of like a Mobius strip where the opposite definitions fold back upon themselves -- your definition of selfishness encompassing not being selfish... crazy confused wink

This:

Quote:
(Helloooooo, Deep End. Into your waters I plunge.) That’s a chance you’ll have to take. It’s Your Path, not mine. I’m not blocking the exits. You can leave. In a way I want you to. You’ve said that in spite of everything this is what you need. Okay – get what you need. I want you to know how it feels, the bad and the good. Maybe it will be the best thing you ever did. Hell, maybe it’ll be the best thing you ever did for both of us. Neither of us is going to know until we know. But you won’t ever really be alone. Because you’ll always know that there is one man who cares about you and who cares about what happens to you.

“Will I know that?”

C’mon, who are you trying to kid? You know that already.

“And if I know that, what happens if you’re not alone?”

Then, my friend, it will suck to be you.


... is AMAZING stuff...
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 05:14 PM
Oh, and that you can think those thoughts, let alone speak them, after swilling Fosters and downing an Ambien borders on the Superhuman...
Posted By: Kettricken Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 05:20 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
“Still. You're the only one. And that’s not the same as caring.”

I thought you said you weren't interested in that? You don't want "all that stuff."

(Deep breath) Are you asking if I care? Because if you are... I do care.

She pauses. "I would have thought you'd fight for it if you did."

SP's Thought Balloon: Whoa! What the h*ll was that? Anyone see where that shot came from?


Not to sound all sibylline, but that doesn't surprise me, one little bit.

Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
“Will I know that?”

C’mon, who are you trying to kid? You know that already.

“And if I know that, what happens if you’re not alone?”

Then, my friend, it will suck to be you.

(And Smiley’s Person kisses Mrs. SP on the forehead and sends her back to sleep.)

And that, Mr. Harvey, is the Rest of the Story.


You *said* that? The green part???? In those words? Gunga Din!

She needed to hear it.

I have hope for the both of you. I just can't help it.

My gut reaction is, be cautious about *pushing* her out the door with all the magnificent deadness. There's gotta be a balance there, between not pursuing and being SO accepting of the fait accompli that you actually convey the wrong message (to wit, "I don't care enough to fight for you". But damme, you're doing the best you can with it all. Selfish looks good on ya; wink.
Posted By: traveldane Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 05:28 PM
Hi Smiley

Not to jump on the bandwagon, but wanted to tell you that I also am inspired by how you have found your strength and sense of self awareness, and how that has allowed you to show unconditional love to your W. I don't think there is any selfishness in a response that really is the best for all involved, or at least, the best to be made of things as they are at this time.

You say that it is selfish just because it is part of the path you have set out to take. Nope, I think not. Its part of the only way out is through deal-eo. You are practicing intention without attachment to to outcome. You are putting your attention towards your intention, but you are living in the present, not trying to force the future. Before I get too Deepak Chopra here, I'll stop.

Also wanted to thank you for your compassion and thoughtful words the other day on my thread. I'm a bit embarrassed at the way that I zig zagged all over the board here in a desperate cry for HELP. IRL I am not such an attention seeker.

Still, I've been thinking a lot about what you said regarding fear, and recognizing that at this point there is very little to do or that could tip things in one direction or another. Of course there are things that could further damage the R (nail the coffin shut, seal it with super glue, encase the whole thing in cement) but that really, the M., as it was is over.

I wonder what my moment will be, when I hear, really hear music again. There have been times when I thought I was paddling along in calm detachment. Hey, once or twice I may even have stood up in the canoe! Look at me, I can balance, whooohoo, I'm really A-OK. Then I see how easy it is to rock my boat. Same old triggers of hurt, anger, bewilderment-FEAR- not very far below the surface, causing ripples. I capsize, haul myself back in, blinking...somehow still surprised, Hey, I'm soaking wet again ?!

Don't know why I got stuck on these boat analogies. Anyway, the point was to express thanks, admiration, and to offer my little token of support, as we all sail along, chartering our respective courses. I can only imagine the whole other dimension of pain experienced by those who have to see their children hurt by this. But I do know that they will never have to question that you are there to be and provide everything that they need.


Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 05:28 PM
There is no Db'ing better than what you just did.

OrangeDog only wishes he could do as well.

You, Mr. SP, are The Man.
Posted By: Coach Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 05:31 PM
SP, Nice dialouge. You can now teach loving detachment.

Quote:
She pauses. "I would have thought you'd fight for it if you did."

SP's Thought Balloon: Whoa! What the h*ll was that? Anyone see where that shot came from?


Did you not see where that shot came from? Like Kett said I would be careful about being too cool without balancing it with some "fight" for her. Do you understand what and why she is looking for you to fight for her? The clues, the clues, the clues.
.. -. ... . -.-. ..- .-. .. - -.--

Cheers
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 05:34 PM
Kett,

This is very interesting to me; as a DAM, I didn't see this in the exchange...

Quote:
There's gotta be a balance there, between not pursuing and being SO accepting of the fait accompli that you actually convey the wrong message (to wit, "I don't care enough to fight for you".


What in it would lead you to believe Mrs. SP might interpret SP's responses as indicating he doesn't/didn't care enough to fight for her? From where I sit, this strikes the balance in a way I only wish I could... In fact, I'm thinking about gettin' me some Fosters and a script for Ambien...

Quote:
Do you want me to fight for it?

“Well, yes. {Beat} Well. I mean. I did. You could have. You just let it go. But now. Well. I mean –“

What makes you think I haven’t been?

(Silence. WAW literally shudders and pulls the blankets close around her.)

Don’t be afraid. I’m not standing in your way. But don’t mistake my acceptance of things with a desire for those things. Do you follow?


-AlexEN

Darn it... Just saw Coach's comments, so clearly I missed it...


Quote:
“Will I know that?”

C’mon, who are you trying to kid? You know that already.

“And if I know that, what happens if you’re not alone?”

Then, my friend, it will suck to be you.

(And Smiley’s Person kisses Mrs. SP on the forehead and sends her back to sleep.)


Scary smooth. Trust me, it already sucks to be her but she's one lucky lady from my POV.
Posted By: Kettricken Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 06:00 PM
It wasn't just this exchange. Honestly, I don't really see how he could have handled it better, under the circs, and I don't mean to nitpick.

I hate to out myself like this, but really, my reaction was just kind of a "duh!" female gut response, based on my perceptions of the whole of reported interactions with Mrs. Smiley.

I know he's trying to be as clear as possible while walking the tightrope between pursuing and 'don't let the door hit ya in the butt on your way out', and more power to him. But phrases like (paraphrased), "I almost hope you do leave, because it's what you seem to need" .... the line between detachment and (percevied) indifference is fine. A person might believe and claim she wants a martyr who will sacrifice his well-being and self-interests for hers .... but at the same time, irrational as it may be, there's another little voice crying, "Well .... he really must not care/want me that much if he lets me go this easily."

This is why I find myself conflicted about some aspects of DB. GAL, act "As If", don't pursue, no R talks ... all fine to a point, especially when done in the service of personal growth and autonomy as opposed to attempted manipulation. But any system that encourages systemic deception about one's authentic emotions -- intense and messy and "pressuring" as they may be -- runs the risk of causing a whole new set of problems, however many problems it may solve. IMHO.
Quote:
But any system that encourages systemic deception about one's authentic emotions -- intense and messy and "pressuring" as they may be -- runs the risk of causing a whole new set of problems, however many problems it may solve. IMHO.


Yes, so many have heard "you seem to be doing so well without me." It is quite the mindf*ck.

I think the bottom line though is that healthy attraction is not based on need or guilt...I mean SP can't fill her void. If "fighting for her" overtly made her feel loved and cared about enough to "take him back" that dynamic would probably be a bit twisted.

If however, a stable, secure, attentive, healthy SP rouses Mrs. SP to come back to the table, she will be showing up as 50% and they'll have a better shot at reconciling (which is a major undertaking, as we all know).

I don't know if that makes sense...Mrs. SP has some work to do to be able to meet SP where he is.

Forgive my rambling, trying to learn from this too.
Posted By: Kettricken Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 06:31 PM
I don't disagree. I see three ways this kind of thing plays out:

"OMG, OMG, don't leave me, I love you ssoooooooooooo much I can't breathe without you how could you do this to me what about the kids OMG I'll never love anyone but you don't leeeeeeeeeave me ....."

"I love you and want the best for you. If you leave, I will not stalk you, ruin you financially, or turn the kids against you. Whatever happens, I will survive and thrive. But you need to know, I love you very much, I am serious about our marriage and am willing to work hard with you so we're both getting what we want and need out of it. My life would be lessened if you, in all your uniqueness, weren't in it, and I would much rather thrive WITH you than separately."

"Eh, I can do better. 3ws.match.com. No big deal to me either way."

Obviously, that's massively over-simplified and hyperbolic. But as a general guide .... I think ya gotta aim for the middle, and not err too far into #3 inadvertently.

No, healthy attraction is not based on need and guilt. And no healthy relationship is based on leveraging the OPs narcissism. For sure.

But still ... it does SEEM easier to start fresh when we've collaborated with our spouse in garbaging up our current relationship. BAG-gage. I think it's possible that believing she is uniquely valued and not readily replacable might go some distance toward balancing those scales and motivating her toward the crow-eating and hard work necessary to back away from the precipice of divorce.

And I think that's the message she's getting.
Quote:
I think it's possible that believing she is uniquely valued and not readily replacable might go some distance toward balancing those scales and motivating her toward the crow-eating and hard work necessary to back away from the precipice of divorce.


Yes, feeling replaceable sucks, I know.

This is so tricky...I don't want H taking for granted that I will move on but I also want him to feel that he's "the one" feeling...

Ultimately, they have to find their own truths. There is so much blatant insecurity, don't want to fuel it and don't want to be a sucker to it either.

This is tough stuff.
Posted By: Sara Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 06:40 PM
Good God! Enough of this talking. When you are just going to start caressing her and end up making love? Teary eyes may not seem like a desire for sexual release, but it is.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 06:41 PM
Kett,

Yes... That is the fineline that, while so obvious, seems to take the longest to achieve in RL.

Quote:
This is why I find myself conflicted about some aspects of DB. GAL, act "As If", don't pursue, no R talks ... all fine to a point, especially when done in the service of personal growth and autonomy as opposed to attempted manipulation. But any system that encourages systemic deception about one's authentic emotions -- intense and messy and "pressuring" as they may be -- runs the risk of causing a whole new set of problems, however many problems it may solve. IMHO.


It's one of those easier said than done things EVEN when you do get it -- especially given by crises that are going on in parallel. Whether or not DB'ing succeeds, the only changes one should make are the ones (a) that are "authentic", or (b) if made to "please" someone else, are NOT "inauthentic", which, despite the double-negative are not the same. VERY Stupid example for the latter... I can hate making the kids beds or doing the laundry, but its a change I can make even though if given my druthers I'd avoid each of them like the plague. But, ingratiating oneself by doing things that are contrary to one's authentic self because you think it will draw back the WAS IS manipulative and won't have a long half-life.

-AlexEN

P.S. Kett & A&K, that was a great exchange while I was typing the above... I hope Coach finds some of it worthy of quoting... wink
Posted By: Kettricken Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 06:57 PM
Actually, I think it's muy importante that the walkaway begins to view themselves as replaceable. Otherwise ... like they say, if you lie down in front of the door, you shouldn't be surprised when people wipe their feet on you. If they are truly irreplaceable ... well, most humans don't act too well when they are given that kind of power.

The flip side is that while they are replaceable, they aren't *easily* replaceable or interchangeable. Because if they believe that, they can either act with impunity (well, I knew you wouldn't have any trouble finding someone else) or become discouraged and overcome with shame (well, I didn't really think you wanted me that much, especially after all I did).

How much crap must a walkaway already have in their head to do what they're doing? I don't see how a *balanced* expression of their value, not just as a person in general, but to the LBS specifically, could hurt.
Quote:
I don't see how a *balanced* expression of their value, not just as a person in general, but to the LBS specifically, could hurt.


I agree.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 09:55 PM
Alex - LOL! The lager and dope came later.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/16/09 10:41 PM
Not to be a buzzkill (literally) but do be careful:

"...Sleepwalking, and eating or driving while not fully awake, with memory loss for the event, as well as abnormal behaviors such as being more outgoing or aggressive than normal, confusion, agitation, and hallucinations may occur. Don’t take it with alcohol as it may increase these behaviors..."


Here's what happened to one (file under "more outgoing" and "memory loss" effects)

http://www.slate.com/id/2216714/
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 12:55 AM
Wow. That was an interesting discussion. From my POV I think I've communicated to WAW that, all else being equal, I'd prefer an R with her, at least at the present time.

But there's this 800-pound gorilla in the room that no one wants to really confront, but which we've alluded to up and down in the SP threadlines before. And it's this: "Which" WAW do I prefer an R with? It strikes me as being possible -- for some, perhaps, even probable -- that at the end of the DB road one realizes, "I don't like WAW that much." Or, "I don't like who WAW has become."

So it clearly is a fine line to walk. And I'm walking on the "wrong" side of it -- betting the Don't Pass line at the craps table. I'm doing Tough Love here -- I'm pushing her toward the door harder than she ever thought likely. I absolutely want her to confront it all, and I want her to confront it on my schedule, not hers. Because she'd wait to get comfortable with this or that -- I say bugger that, try it when you're uncomfortable. In the previous thread (I think), @Forrest Gump and I had a testy exchange over power.

When WAS comes to you and says ILYBNILWY, s/he's taking Absolute Power over the sitch. And one of the reasons (IMHO) that LBS freaks and does all that nasty icky stuff we do, is the feeling of utter powerlessness. I felt that way a long time (in relative terms). And then I decided not to. Now I'm wielding the power here and WAW's game is off-kilter.

Bad DB kung-fu? Maybe. I don't care. "Emotional jiu-jitsu," a phrase we encounter in the DB lexicon, implies using the WAS's energy, weight, etc. against them, just like the IRL martial art.

So my POV is this: Okay, fine. You want to walk? Walk! Here, let me pack your bag! Wait, you forgot this! Okay, see ya! By the way -- I'm Teh Awesome! And you'll figure that out pretty quickly. And then it will suck to be you. [And yes, I did actually use those words.]

So, yeah, that's a bit of a silly way to put it, but you get the point. I wasn't exaggerating or putting on some Rambo Courage when I said in a previous thread that I'm open to ALL possibilities. Look, maybe she was right all along! Maybe she ISN'T the one for me.

That's how I'm rolling, anyway.

Does it work? Hell, I don't know. Here's an e-mail exchange WAW and I had today, suitably mashed to preserve anonymity while maintaining the topical integrity of the respective notes. WAW will be red, I will be blue. (Because the Good Guys are always Blue Force! Hooah!)

Dear {Mrs. SP},

I know this isn't a "happy" birthday for you but I'm wishing you a Happy Birthday anyway, because, as you put it, I'm a selfish bastard -- if it weren't for your birthday I wouldn't have known you and I wouldn't have known D and S, and that's some pretty great stuff to know. So Happy Birthday. To You. For Me. wink

Ever since you dropped the Bomb, you've been harping on this "you never knew me" thing. Maybe you're right. But maybe you never knew me, either. Curious, eh? But that's the past, and I don't live there anymore. Whether I knew you or not in any "real" sense is irrelevant now. We are where we are. But there are a couple things I do know about you -- or at least about what I believe to be you.

I believe you are a good person with a good heart.

I believe you're struggling and sad and conflicted and confused and confounded and confronted and dizzy and lonely and scared and committed and determined and anticipating -- and and and.

And I believe that you can come to me -- if you want -- for support, for friendship, for whatever it is you need me to provide. I know that idea sort of freaks you out. But that's because you're not listening to your heart (and I don't mean that in the Hallmark way) and are listening to that conflicted, sad, struggling brain of yours. Which brain, by the way, is dead wrong. You won't be taking advantage of me, you won't be giving me the wrong impression. You're divorcing me -- how much more of an impression do I need?

And I've heard you say you're afraid of being vulnerable. Nahhhh -- you've got a great self-protection fortress there. Not just one wall -- plenty of walls. So you can open the outer gate, and I'll meet you half-way, parlez. Truce. Christmas in the trenches.

No Hidden Agenda. No Expectations. No field of daisies, slow-motion running, and Vangelis soundtrack.

It'll just be me coming through the gate, just to give you a smile, or just to listen, or just to share with you what I believe.

Let me remind you -- I believe you are a good person with a good heart.

Oh, and I believe in you. It's been a long road -- nearly 22 years -- and there's a lot of road ahead. But today is for today. And today is your birthday. So Happy Birthday.


WAW replied:

I'm sure you know that was the nicest birthday card I have ever received. You're right -- I am feeling all of those things to be sure. I wish you were right about the other stuff, though. I used to think I was a "good person" and that I had a "good heart" but now I just don't believe it. How can I in light of what I have done to you and our children?

If you'd be interested in exploring this, once I move I hope we can spend some time together and start over. I don't know where it will lead, but I would sure like for us to get to know each other again. I really want you to have a place in my life that is bigger than just my kids' Dad.


I can live with that. Bad DB kung-fu or not.

Oh and @Sara? You've identified the major weakness in my mojo. That one -- that "just take her and do the deed" one? Struggling with it.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 01:02 AM
@Kettricken:
Quote:
I think it's muy importante that the walkaway begins to view themselves as replaceable.

Concur. Because the fact is -- though it's dam hard for an LBS to admit in the depths of The Fear -- they ARE replaceable.
Posted By: Sara Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 01:43 AM
Quote:
Oh and @Sara? You've identified the major weakness in my mojo. That one -- that "just take her and do the deed" one? Struggling with it.


It depends on where you see the line. Is it a six foot fence? A two foot fence? A line in sand? If you can bring the line down to the ground, then you just reach your hand out and touch her. The rest just follows. But you can't reach through a high fence. Damn, man! Any other man talking to a woman as vulnerable as your wife was there would have had sex with her. And she would have welcomed it. But the tone of the letter says she is still vulnerable. Maybe it is better to wait, and do it at the new house.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 01:49 AM
Yeah, it's not so much about the line as it is the vulnerable.

This will sound totally weird, and I don't mean to misappropriate a very serious word, but the "just take her" thing in the context of not being "really" intimate -- trusting friends, lovers kind of thing? -- seems sort of, well, date-rape-y to me. Taking advantage of. That doesn't come out right, but no other words come to mind at the moment.
Posted By: traveldane Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 02:01 AM
Just a question:

At the risk of fueling gender stereo types, I'm wondering if this approach would strike the right sentiments and invoke the response it seems to be with your wife, if the scenario were reversed ? Obviously we are talking here about two specific individuals and a specific marriage, not just dynamics between a man, and a woman, not trying to reduce it to just that, really.

But, IMHO, it almost seems like within the unconditional love you are offering, you are also doing a bit of that confident man, sweetheart i've got you figured out but am so self aware that I welcome you to take the space to figure it out for yourself type of thing. And, ps. I already love you for who you are. I'm that good. Don't feel cold in the shadow of my superhuman emotional awareness. You'll get there and if you'd like to meet me on the other side, you might be that lucky.

Don't get me wrong, its fantastic. And, it seems to be working. But, if you are not carefull, she might begin to resent it a bit that you seem to understand things about her that she might not understand yet herself. I don't think it sounds like she does...in fact, email above clearly states that you are right on and she is appreciating/responding to that.

Because she is a woman and, while I am the last one who likes to admit it, we do like to be taken care of to some degree. And have our emotions affirmed. But its a fine line between that and feeling parented.

And, getting back to my origional question, in my experience (not just my own sitch but beyond) men often, not always, but often do not respond as well to having their feelings identified and affirmed...at least not initially. Validation goes a long way, miles, but empathy before they themselves have digested what they are feeling and are ready to announce the place they are in is not appreciated. You have to tread very lightly, a line so fine between understaning where they are coming from but not taking any action or even saying so...comes off as feminie patronizing.

Why does it seem less that way in the reverse? Or maybe it doesn't. Maybe just as many women balk at this. Maybe it is all just based on the individual. Anyway, if your wife were not responding to this, if she was like, thanks for being so concerned with how I feel but I'll figure myself out thank you very much and I really don't want you around while I do it, what would be your next step?


Posted By: Sara Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 02:02 AM
But that's the exact opposite of the way I see it. The revealing of the vulnerability is intimate. Your answers to her are intimate. What is not intimate and loving about this scene? To me, it is the absence of the culminating act. To my mind, there is no higher compliment than when I see my husband across the room pointing at me with....you know what. Sex is loving. Or at least it should be.
Posted By: traveldane Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 02:13 AM
I may have answered my own question, regardless of the gender theorizing.

Would that next step simply be "here's your coat, watch the door on your way out"
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 02:28 AM
@traveldane: Honestly I don't know (in terms of how it would work in reverse). The next step if WAW said, "Hey -- that's all good, thanks" would be "Okay, have a nice!" And I'd keep on rolling the way I roll. DB to some point of diminishing returns and then carry on.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 02:35 AM
I'm rooting for you and your family.. (self evident.. but anything else I write comes out mangled). You go, Mojo

*hugs*
Posted By: traveldane Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 02:36 AM
Perhaps you could just say..."picture me rolling".

Anyway, my speculating with a the male female stuff doesn't really matter. Got me thinking is all. What matters is that you guys are connecting and I think you're doing an awesome job.
SP- this is pathetic but I'm having a mojo meltdown. Can you come to my thread and help a mutha out?

I know your cup runneth over so if you can't, I get it.

Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 04:24 AM
@alive. Asked and received, FWIW.

-------

Had a little family birthday celebration for WAW. Cake, candles, cards (even one from me).

She took a big step and returned a ring I gave her early in our courtship, that my father had given my mother. It was sweet of her to think of. Oooooohhh, but what does it mean?

It means she's divorcing me, duh. But then I already knew that.

But tonight, this night, we're getting along; we laughed; it was good. Tomorrow we'll get along again. Or we won't. But we won't know until tomorrow.
Quote:
@alive. Asked and received, FWIW.


thanks sp. worth a lot and made me laugh...

Quote:
She took a big step and returned a ring I gave her early in our courtship, that my father had given my mother.


It hurt to read that...I know you've got it covered but, I'm sorry.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 05:30 AM
Man you're so good. I cried at the ring part...but if I were you I'd keep it handy.

Just keep doing what you're doing. (im losing it on mine)

OrangeDog

And as a side note, I would personally keep the Vangelis in the Picture (described in your email). Chariots and Blade Runner owe a lot to his tracks.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/17/09 09:41 PM
Okay, I guess you've scored one there on the whole Vangelis controversy.

Kind of a plateau day, to borrow from @Thinker's post over at @alive's house on peaks 'n' valleys. But the plateau isn't a bad place to be, necessarily. I'm not "actively" DB'ing today; WAW isn't "actively" WAW'ing today.

It's led me to think that in some respects we LBS are too dam active -- always doing this that 'n't'other. Gotta GAL! Gotta 180! Gotta validate! Gotta change! Gotta listen! Gotta hear! Gotta not-push! Gotta As If! Gotta read Schnarch! Gotta read Codependent! Gotta read MWD! Gotta read Love Languages! Gotta read N.U.T.S.! Gotta this! Gotta that! (Gotta go potty!)

I'm thinking that from time-to-time maybe we could consider adding "Gotta Chill!" to the DB'ers kit-bag. The Walkaway isn't scheming constantly. I mean, they do have jobs and stuff. Perhaps one (unspoken?) commandment to DB'ing successfully, whether one "saves" the marriage or "merely" saves her/himself, is (or should be) Left-Behind, Pace Thyself.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/18/09 02:56 AM
Amen, oh Smiley One,

Why, just Sunday night I posted, bemoaning my totally vegged out, non-moping, got-absolutely-nothing-accomplished day and a coupla days later someone replied with just what I needed to hear, telling me "Good. You don't owe the day anything.".

Hey, wait a minute. That was you. laugh
Your own sage advice is catching up with you.

Anyway, after you validated my do-nothing Sunday, I reviewd it and decided that Sundays are now Me Days. Then I thought, no, Sunday is now NotMeDay:
WAW? Not Me
Marital crisis? Not Me.
Lonely? Not Me.
DBing? Not Me.
Books to read? Not ME
Plans? Not Me.
All these strategies, as-iffing, detaching, GALing (well,maybe not GALing) 180, etc., etc.? Not Me.
Won't even read the forum or post on NotMeDay!! (well, maybe getting carried a way a bit on that one).
Gonna push it all out of my every waking hour for just ONE day of the week.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/18/09 04:46 AM
Hey Smile Guy..

Everyone needs downtime after the news delivered. The focus is the kids, keeping the boat on an even keel for the most precious passengers.

At some point, 'Gotta GAL' becomes part of living. Anxiety and fear evolve to focus and goals. What was inconceivable transforms to a whole new way of thinking, viewing and embracing life. How to become the person you're meant to be.

Choices.

You have been incredible through this whole process, from keeping DB cheat sheets initially to being mojolicious.

And here's the rub.. because my impression goes against popular opinion.

Let her go.

Only she can decide to come back.

You've provided caring and warmth, acceptance, been phenomenal. But can you save her? Is that what's she's looking for? It's still all about her.. her fears of not being attractive enough for future partners, of being alone, of 'are you willing to be in my back pocket and what will I do if you aren't'? She may be looking at the big picture, or the little picture.. but she'll get the real picture. Her happiness is hers to own.

You know her best.. that she's a wonderful person with a good heart who's struggling and in a lot of pain, doing what she feels is the right thing even though she feels like crap doing it.

Let her experience the consequences of her decision. Your exemplary actions speak volumes.. over a loudspeaker.. with simultaneous translations in twelve different languages. If you 'carry' her she may never find her way back to you. Choices.

Returning the ring with sentimental value.. "Let me go." "I'm leaving." or "Look at what a brave little toaster I am, do something".

She's scantily clad in bed and pulls the sheets around her.. "You're in my space." "I'm not comfortable." "I'm vulnerable."

It hurts, it sucks, along with being unfair to the innocent children you brought into the world.

Let her feel, let her chose to come to you for support or not.

It doesn't mean you don't love her, that you're walking away from the marriage... it's respecting her wishes, that go counter to your goal. She can and will fall. Without your safety net, she'll learn how to get up. And appreciate what's missing or walk away.

A kick in the pants is a big eye opener and wake up call.. for both parties.

*hugs*
Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/18/09 06:19 AM
I'm doing this right now (at least that's what I think I'm doing) and I can say it's going to hurt for both but I don't know any other way around it.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/18/09 11:40 AM
Hey orangedog..

It's strange. All anyone can do is try to the best of their ability. Accepting responsibility for their part in the deterioration of the relationship. Letting go of guilt and fear. Remembering that perfect love casts out fear. Becoming the person they're meant to be. Not whacking the divorcing/separating/leaving spouse. Offer 'treats'.. the positive changes, listening skills, hearing rather than reacting to what is said for better or worse.

And.. allowing the emotionally withdrawn spouse to initiate, to ask for what they need, not trying to fix them or fix things for them. Allowing growth with oneself.. and for the one you pledged your life during one of the most painful times in life.

*hugs*

Oops.. and being grateful for all the gifts in life, not what is feared lost.
Originally Posted By: Gypsy
Hey Smile Guy..

Everyone needs downtime after the news delivered. The focus is the kids, keeping the boat on an even keel for the most precious passengers.

At some point, 'Gotta GAL' becomes part of living. Anxiety and fear evolve to focus and goals. What was inconceivable transforms to a whole new way of thinking, viewing and embracing life. How to become the person you're meant to be.

Choices.

You have been incredible through this whole process, from keeping DB cheat sheets initially to being mojolicious.

And here's the rub.. because my impression goes against popular opinion.

Let her go.

Only she can decide to come back.

You've provided caring and warmth, acceptance, been phenomenal. But can you save her? Is that what's she's looking for? It's still all about her.. her fears of not being attractive enough for future partners, of being alone, of 'are you willing to be in my back pocket and what will I do if you aren't'? She may be looking at the big picture, or the little picture.. but she'll get the real picture. Her happiness is hers to own.

You know her best.. that she's a wonderful person with a good heart who's struggling and in a lot of pain, doing what she feels is the right thing even though she feels like crap doing it.

Let her experience the consequences of her decision. Your exemplary actions speak volumes.. over a loudspeaker.. with simultaneous translations in twelve different languages. If you 'carry' her she may never find her way back to you. Choices.

Returning the ring with sentimental value.. "Let me go." "I'm leaving." or "Look at what a brave little toaster I am, do something".

She's scantily clad in bed and pulls the sheets around her.. "You're in my space." "I'm not comfortable." "I'm vulnerable."

It hurts, it sucks, along with being unfair to the innocent children you brought into the world.

Let her feel, let her chose to come to you for support or not.

It doesn't mean you don't love her, that you're walking away from the marriage... it's respecting her wishes, that go counter to your goal. She can and will fall. Without your safety net, she'll learn how to get up. And appreciate what's missing or walk away.

A kick in the pants is a big eye opener and wake up call.. for both parties.

*hugs*


Gypsy, that was a phenomenal post.

Puppy
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/18/09 12:26 PM
Quote:
And here's the rub.. because my impression goes against popular opinion.

Let her go.

Only she can decide to come back.

I am in total agreement. And a lot of people on Team Person in the Alt (AKA, the Real World) actually want that quote cut off at the period following "go" -- they don't want her to decide to come back because her attitude has been so single-mindedly on herself.

I'm not rendering that judgment, because I'm recusing myself from Judgmentaldom. I do understand that they're saying, "You're too good for her."

Welllllll, I don't buy into this "good" for a person thing, but I appreciate their basic point: You're acting more nobly than she is, says they, so why should she reap the benefit?

That's actually not a bad question in a sense. I was having this convo with a tennis partner t'other day -- "Would you really take her back?" asks he, rather incredulously.

And you know what, Gypsy? Between you and me and the Internet -- I'm not sure the answer is "yes." For the kids' sake? Absolutely. But for mine? I really just don't know anymore.

For one -- and this is something I see over at the Piecing threads, and is something @Puppy Dog Tails talks about a lot vis-a-vis affairs -- there's the "what's to keep you from doing it again" angle.

For another -- and I've referred to it above -- there's the whole Self-Awareness issue: What if, in fact, WAW is not (and perhaps never was) "the one"? What if there's a kind of inevitability being played out here?

Big questions, to be sure, and certainly not ones I'm going to front-load any answers to, but they strike me as emblematic of "progress" in a way -- one goes from "What do I do now?" to "What do I do next?" as the days wear into weeks wear into months and the DB'ing proceeds accordingly.

Quote:
Returning the ring with sentimental value.. "Let me go." "I'm leaving." or "Look at what a brave little toaster I am, do something".

I'm going to give her props on this one. That was, I think, actually just a nice thing to do. I mean, it was my father's fraternity pin (him, like Mistah Kurtz, dead), and is one of the very few artifacts I had / have of him. That act was for me, I suspect, and not for her.

Quote:
Let her experience the consequences of her decision.

So important. Sooooo important! This was one of the earliest lessons I had from @Greek, in fact, and was really key in moving me from Stage 1 to Stage WherevereitisIamnow. When we say "it's all about WAS," we have to really mean "all." WAS has to be allowed to own it, good and bad. As I've said before (again courtesy of @Greek and @DanceQueen and you), LBS tends to underestimate (or not even consider) the fact that WAS is going through his/her own process, and that it might not -- though in a perverse way LBS wants it to -- be all good, sunshine, and roses. Just look at WAW -- I can see on her Totally Not Poker-Face Face just how pained she is.

One of the frustrations, I think, that @BTB, @Gardener, @pollyanna, and @aliveandkicking have in their sitch's is that their WAS's don't "seem" to be experiencing any negatives in that "all" that is "all about them." (Though @alive recently opened up a can of Mojo on her H who suddenly seems not to be so cool after all.... And bully for her!)

Quote:
It doesn't mean you don't love her, that you're walking away from the marriage... it's respecting her wishes, that go counter to your goal.

It's so funny that you wrote this, because I had JUST said the same thing to one of our colleagues -- who shall remain nameless -- in the Alt. He said that, by detaching he felt like he was becoming the Walkaway and abandoning his kids (to WAW's whims), to which I replied:
Quote:
in more than one sense the LBS does become a Walkaway. Even if the LBS is "true" to the vows and fighting for the marriage and etc. and et al., the LBS is still Walking Away -- at a minimum, walking away from a situation, from her/his own past self, and so on.

I went through the abandoning the kids thing, too. "If I walk, then I'm no better than her!" But I reframed that. She's walking away -- I'm walking towards. And ultimately I decided I was saving them by saving myself.


Great thoughts and comments, Gypsy. As you can see, you've been influential.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/18/09 05:51 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson

I'm not rendering that judgment, because I'm recusing myself from Judgmentaldom. I do understand that they're saying, "You're too good for her."

Welllllll, I don't buy into this "good" for a person thing, but I appreciate their basic point: You're acting more nobly than she is, says they, so why should she reap the benefit?


It's something you're doing for yourself, isn't it? A step by step learning process for you based on what is important.

Quote:
"Would you really take her back?" asks he, rather incredulously.

And you know what, Gypsy? Between you and me and the Internet -- I'm not sure the answer is "yes." For the kids' sake? Absolutely. But for mine? I really just don't know anymore.


The marriage you had is dead, gone, kaput. She was in enough pain, felt enough frustration and helplessness in it that she took the action that worked for her. And she has been consistent on leaving. Perhaps hoping for something more once she's out of the house, but only after she's gone.

Having children, like having inside connections when looking for a job, allows the door to be opened. But the rest comes from the individual, two in this case. Only a 'new' relationship would work with a person you've cherished, who you felt betrayed you. And this applies to BOTH parties. So trust is rebuilt one straw at a time if each and God are willing.

Quote:
"what's to keep you from doing it again" angle.


Once again, what's to keep one from straying, what's to keep another from withdrawing. It all evolves from a loss, from fear. And it is solved by laughter, by being together, by ripping away the crap of the past and starting anew.

C'mon, how many soldiers survive, or folks move forward if they're always looking backward?

It's dual accountability, a leap of faith forward, being committed to sharing what scares the poopies out of you, to listening.

Quote:
What if, in fact, WAW is not (and perhaps never was) "the one"? What if there's a kind of inevitability being played out here?


We all are multifaceted diamonds. Each love is unique. Each love reveals another aspect. True love is not limited to one person and one person alone.

Yet with marriage each focuses on the radiance they bring another and builds on that foundation. The couple weathers the bad, exults the good and grows together. Love evolves to a deep abiding expanse that respects the flaws of another and exponentially grows what is the best. You work together, not separately.

What is lost in divorce is the shared experiences of the children, of coping with life's sorrows along with the family, along with the time it takes to mature a relationship.

Divorce/separation happens when something breaks, has been 'broken' for quite a while. Rarely is it impulsive. It reeks of desperation.



Quote:

I'm going to give her props (on returning the ring) on this one. That was, I think, actually just a nice thing to do. I mean, it was my father's fraternity pin (him, like Mistah Kurtz, dead), and is one of the very few artifacts I had / have of him. That act was for me, I suspect, and not for her.


Absolutely a caring gesture but one that speaks of endings.

Quote:
Just look at WAW -- I can see on her Totally Not Poker-Face Face just how pained she is.


That ain't nothing, baby. Wait until she's a single parent with her work schedule, 'alone', paying support and legal fees. Let's not forget the rollercoaster of emotions, too.

As terrifying as the proclamation to end the marriage was, you've spent days, weeks, months learning how to cope, improving oh so many skills.

And now, Smiley Friend.. it's time for me to be the momma.

*hugs*
Quote:
One of the frustrations, I think, that @BTB, @Gardener, @pollyanna, and @aliveandkicking have in their sitch's is that their WAS's don't "seem" to be experiencing any negatives in that "all" that is "all about them." (Though @alive recently opened up a can of Mojo on her H who suddenly seems not to be so cool after all.... And bully for her!)


Tangent Alert-

To my fellow sufferers of apparent disadvantage and disproportionate loss...the key is looking at your position within your own paradigm. If I am driving a beat up clunker, working at CVS and honoring myself and my kids, I am STILL better off than H based on what I care about. So, with that as my starting point, the only way to go it is up...and yes, opening up a can of mojo helps because you are changing the dynamic. Doesn't mean they'll feel the loss any more or less but it does reinforce that no other person can define your life's meaning for you.

Thinking of all of those who have suffered the worst indignities and injustices to emerge not just intact but exceptional human beings. And I don't mean to compare us because in the bigger scheme we are dealing with small potatoes here...but, it is good to know what is possible.

Anyhoo... whistle
Quote:
What if, in fact, WAW is not (and perhaps never was) "the one"?


Here's some genius writing- "the one" is the one who you choose to be "the one" and who chooses to be "the one" back and I think that's the whole unromantic kit and kaboodle.

Quote:
What if there's a kind of inevitability being played out here?


Oh ya, it was inevitable. Just went on a whole rant about whatever happened is what needed to happen...but, as in Schnarch's book, what is the end-point of the inevitable? Is it R and an improved M? Is it D? Is it D and then R? Is it D and then re-M and then D again? There are folks who D and remarry 30 years later and I'm sure they would say it was inevitable.

You aren't going to be able to wrap this up until you're an old man and looking back..."huh, that was inevitable."

I'm bonkers today.

Maybe try to "chill" as you intuited you need to particularly on trying to formulate what is happening here. You are too disciplined for that. It's kids stuff. grin
Posted By: Coach Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/18/09 06:33 PM
Quote:
I'm bonkers today.


AAK -you are bonkers because you are experiencing changes in yourself and it is unsettling. Use your leverage and choose to be the one.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/18/09 06:37 PM
Quote:
I'm bonkers today.


I think it's the cappies from last night...
Or is being in a great mood such a departure for me???

Ya, I'm pretty wound up (barely slept). Hopefully I'm still making a little sense...

I guess we should now return to our regular programming...SP...you're on!


Posted By: orangedog Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/18/09 08:02 PM
Gypsy: Wonderful post. It is as you describe. There's a lot that LBS needs to let happen. It's hard, it hurts, but it's necessary. Our success is defined as maintaining our self and our integrity as it happens.

"WAW needs to own it". Absolutely. This doesn't come from a position of spite, but we as the LBS have to allow the WAW to walk alone. The sorting out period comes with good and bad and sooner or later they must deal with all of it. If we don't fully disengage then they keep limping along using us a crutch (cake eating) and never fully evaluate.

"The One" = Whomever invented this idea did a great injustice to relationships everywhere. I don't mean to discount the deep connection and feelings of love a couple can feel because they are real. Nor do I mean to discount the notion that some personalities mix better than others. But there's nothing spiritual about it. "The One" is chosen together; is a relationship built together; is a relationship maintained together. "The One" is the one YOU open your heart to and do the work with.

Alive = '..working at CVS and driving a clunker...yet feeling better about myself' really resonated with me. I told my psy yesterday that I really have no reason to feel as good as I do. Not that I'm bungee-jumping blissful right now but I could be devastated if I chose to dwell on my sitch on paper:

- Getting sep'd and probably divorced (seems to be little difference)
- Finances are a mess
- My growth stocks based retirement fund is worth about $1.49 last time I checked.
- Renting
- Driving an older car (but it's paid off and it runs dammit! And I EARNED that "140.6" sticker the hard way.)
- I still haven't figured out that ONE amazing thing in life I want to do yet.

Psy asked, "Feel a little like a college student just starting out again?" Yes, I do. Just living on my feet.

But living day to day it's fine. Most of that stuff above makes little difference in my overall happiness. Money, house, car, stuff...it's just stuff. And it will get better.

I have my health, a nice place to live, children I love, and I'm learning so much about myself everyday. I'm trying very hard to learn and live compassion, happiness, fairness, and peace, and nothing can take those away.
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/18/09 09:39 PM
Orangedog.. and others..

I've avoided the initials.. LBS, WAS.. because I feel they increase the sense of victimization, labeling and inherent fingerpointing. Yes, they left, rarely out of glee. Yes, most of us are left with a heart breaking 'duh'. "How can you leave without giving the marriage a chance??" Yet out of the wreckage comes a choice.. to wallow, to persevere, to grow.

As long as the victim mentality lingers through negative definitions, it takes away positive energy.

Or that's my take on it.

*hugs*
Posted By: SmileysPerson Power Shift - 06/19/09 02:31 PM
"Why are you doing so much better than I am?"

This was the opening gambit in a brief tel-convo with WAW last night.

Umm, sorry?

"You were devastated. It was disgusting. It -- "

Wow. I disgusted you.

" -- no, okay, bad word choice. It wasn't pleasant to see, that's for sure. But now. I don't get it. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop."

There's no shoe. And who's to say I'm doing 'better'? I'm doing. Like Foreign Female Friend says, I'm "abling."

"I don't get that."

I'm able. I'm capable. I'm competent. I'm Taking Care of Business (with mental wink to @Coach).

"Yeah, you are. And, I don't know, I don't get it. It's kind of frustrating. I feel like I'm falling farther and farther behind. I'm alone, I'm lonely, I'm going to stay that way."

Nahhhh, c'mon -- look at you, yer hot! I know this is hard, but you've only got to hang on for another week. Once you're in your new place -- sheeeeeeet, you'll have 'em beating at the door. [Said in a silly sly-guy tone of voice]

"No, I won't. No one's expressed any interest in that."

I wouldn't say "no one." I'm sure Old Signore Schmuckatelli'ld be interested in that. And I'm plenty interested, you know, in "that" -- wink-wink.

"Okay, great, that's two. A sociopath and my ex-husband."

Hey now -- I'm not "ex" yet. And I'm pretty sure there's some obscure law somewhere that says I'm entitled to tap it a couple more times... [That's very crude, yes, but understand that those kinds of arcane blue laws have been a recurring topic of mutual disdain and joking for Mr. and Mrs. SP for years and years and years, so she got it as a joke.]

"Hmmm. That's probably right. And that might happen."

Yee-haw!

"(Laughing) Calm down. But why are you even interested? You've got a posse. A posse of p***y out there. How did you even know how to do it?"

Well, shucks, that's true. But do what?

"Do it."

Do it? You mean, "do it?" It-it? I'm not saying I [i]have done it. Of course, I'm not saying I haven't, either. The question is irrelevant. None of your beezwax. You turned "it" away.[/i]

"No, stupid, I mean, how did you meet your posse? Man, you've got sex on the brain!"

Ohhhhhh. I don't know. I was afraid of meeting women -- no, that came out wrong. I was afraid I didn't know how to meet women. Actually it was pretty easy. Sex on the brain? Of course I've got sex on the brain! Look at yourself, slinking all around the house in your slinky outfits, acting all innocent and whatnot. [In a teasing voice] Oooohhh, I just need to stretch here in my stretchy yoga top! Don't notice my lady-lumps, please! It wouldn't be appropriate! We're just not that way anymore.

"(Laughs) I didn't do that! Huh! (Pause) Well I'm not going to meet anyone. All the men I know are married."

Their wives will be falling all over themselves to set you up.

"I don't know. I think you might have been right about that whole thing about female rejection. They look at me weird."

In your imagination.

"I don't think so. Maybe they do sort of resent the fact that I'm "abandoning" my children."

40% custody isn't abandonment, take it a bit easy on yourself. We're all doing the best we can here.

"Well, still. Anyway, I didn't turn "it" away."

Sure you did. You love me but you're not in love with me. I'm a piece of sh*t. You should have dumped my a** 10 years ago. I'm worthless. [All things she said to me in the heat of rage.]

"I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said those things. I was angry. Angry words. None of that is true. I'm really seeing it anew. I wasn't fair about a lot of things. I just -- (pause)"

Just what?

"I don't know. Anyway."

Anyway.

[Dead air. SP rallies.]

So look. Once you start feeling better [WAW has been sick], you need to wake me up for some booty calls before you move out.

WAW laughs. "I'll take that under advisement."

[SP in commercial-guy voice] Limited time offer! Quantities may be limited! It's like eBay -- high demand.

"(Ruefully) Don't I know it. (Pause) I have to get back to work."

Okay. Feel better. Need me to check to see you're up in the morning?

"Please."

Because you know I'll be --

"Don't say it! (Laughs) Okay, 'bye."

-----

Power shift. Paradigm shift.

Power shifts. Paradigm shifts.

Taking Care of Business.

With respect to at @Gypsy wrote above, WAW's doing the whole Endings thing, this seems clear. But what, exactly, she's Ending -- I'm not sure there's an obvious answer to that.

But it doesn't matter. Because I'm happy today. @aliveandkicking and @traveldane are Las Mojalitas today. My new Main Men, @BTB and @Gardener are Working the Issue day-by-day. @Puppy is swinging his 2x4s. @Thinker is thinking, @orangedog is howling at the moon, @AlexEN is maintaining his mojo, @Coach is coaching, and all is right in the Divorce-Busting world this day.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 02:49 PM
SP,

You know I love your mojo (and I think it needs to be taught to others, and I'm glad to see you reaching out to some of the nubes). But sometimes it seems to me like it crosses over into "rescuing" to me.

Self-confession: I would be the world's crappiest practical joker. Because as soon as I see my "victim" squirming in the least, for only a second or two, I blurt out "KIDDING!" I just can't stand the tension. I'm the same way with people, and I frequently use humor, like you do, to diffuse or "soften" the situation.

That's a gift, and sometimes it's good.

But sometimes it doesn't allow the other person to own their own moment, and to remain there in their crucible, and figure out their own chit. I see key moments in your convos with the fetching Mrs. Smiley, where she seems close to some sort of self-awareness moment, and you always diffuse it with "softening" words or "rescuing" words.

Is it just me????

Puppy
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 02:50 PM
That sh*t is "off the hook" as the youngens like to say...
Posted By: dmkdmkdmk Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 02:52 PM
I'm just stopping in to say - I love it. It sounds like the kind of conversation H and I would have... We used to have the same playful banter (we do sometimes now but it's much more careful since I'm thinking so hard about what/what not to say)... I hope he remembers someday that I'm probably the only female in the world he can be completely inappropriate with.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 02:58 PM
No, Puppy, you're absolutely right. I am rescuing. Or, if not "rescuing," then certainly tossing a life-ring from the stern of my ship as it passes her in the night.

And why not? She's a fine person, all else being equal. I love her. She brought me two wonderful -- if increasingly frustrating and sassy kids (D6 was musing yesterday in the back of Dad's Urban Assault Vehicle, AKA, mini-van: I don't get it. Why does the Mommy need the Daddy if the baby is in her tummy? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!).

She's in pain. First, do no harm. All I'm offering her is an aspirin -- it's not getting at the underlying pathology.

And she knows that. So it's good.

Anyway, I can only be myself, right? Everyone else is already taken. And on a serious note, re-reading my first 3 threads, I realize now that this was one of my biggest hurdles -- I couldn't deal with a lot of the DB "method" because it seemed not to square with who I am. (Yeah, yeah, I get the whole "WAS doesn't want who LBS is 'for real'" thing, but still.....) It wasn't until I figured out that the trick is to apply, and not comply, that I started (IMO) making progress for me.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:04 PM
What an uplifting post! W and I would go on like that pre-bomb (actually pre-about-six-months-before-bomb). Miss it.

Power Shift/paradigm shift. Sounds good. Your invention or did I miss a piece of DBing, somewhere?
Posted By: Thinker Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:04 PM
I understand what you are saying with this SP. Between caretaking to the point of enabling, and allowing them to crash so hard it could have long term impact.

I'm also worried that if I allowed my W to crash really hard, she wouldn't bounce.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:14 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
No, Puppy, you're absolutely right. I am rescuing. Or, if not "rescuing," then certainly tossing a life-ring from the stern of my ship as it passes her in the night.

And why not? She's a fine person, all else being equal. I love her.


I get that. But sometimes when you love someone, you let them squirm a little if you know it will help them grow, no?

Wouldn't it do her more good if you let her learn how to SWIM better, than to toss her a LIFE RING? confused

Puppy
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:15 PM
Quote:
I'm also worried that if I allowed my W to crash really hard, she wouldn't bounce.


So you avoid the crash at what cost? Ultimately you don't do her any favor letting yourself be emotionally abused.

I think most of us here forget that we are in the most extreme marital crises here. Most of us are dealing with depression, MLC, affairs etc.

We can't look at this as a pool of normal marriages. We are all hanging off the cliff. My point is that, DB be damned, you got to do what you got to do when you're at this juncture. On the upside, no fear, cuz we know the odds are against R...
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:25 PM
Alive,

I don't see SP being "emotionally abused"; in fact, as I've said before, he seems to be handling this far better than most (which is why I think no one's been questioning his approach).

And I, in fact, normally base my advice -- whether it's "take a firm stand" or it's "take a more passive approach -- based mainly on how well the LBS is able to HANDLE a passive, pure-DB approach.

In this case, however, I'm actually saying that in spite of the fact that Smiley seems to be handling it so well, I don't think he's doing his WIFE any favors by "rescuing" her in this way.

Puppy
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:28 PM
I was thinking of thinker.

iPhone driving danger
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:32 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
I was thinking of thinker.

iPhone driving danger


Well, at least you're not reading VAMPIRE NOVELS while driving ,. . . wink
Posted By: Coach Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:33 PM
Quote:
I understand what you are saying with this SP. Between caretaking to the point of enabling, and allowing them to crash so hard it could have long term impact.

I'm also worried that if I allowed my W to crash really hard, she wouldn't bounce.


Take the training wheels off they are for kids. Risk and reward when you take your hand off the seat and let go. Risk and rewards for both participants. Parenting your spouse is frustrating and a turn-off for both people. Rescuing and enabling is just a attempt to control someone else. The only control you have is self-control. Self-control is really the way to love yourself.
Lovingly detach. Differentiate.
My wife taught me this, "I wasn't put on this earth to be your wife." She is her own special, unique, challenged and growing person. We are different and stumble over different issues. Boundaries have helped me see where I end and she starts. We are both stronger and healthier as a result.
Cheers
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach

My wife taught me this, "I wasn't put on this earth to be your wife." She is her own special, unique, challenged and growing person.



I love that!!! whistle grin
Posted By: Coach Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:39 PM
Quote:
Well, at least you're not reading VAMPIRE NOVELS while driving ,. . .


I got a great new idea for a TV series. It's about little people vampires with multiples. "Little Bella and Steven plus 7" Whaddya think??? cool
Posted By: Greek Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/19/09 03:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Gypsy
Orangedog.. and others..

I've avoided the initials.. LBS, WAS.. because I feel they increase the sense of victimization, labeling and inherent fingerpointing. Yes, they left, rarely out of glee. Yes, most of us are left with a heart breaking 'duh'. "How can you leave without giving the marriage a chance??" Yet out of the wreckage comes a choice.. to wallow, to persevere, to grow.

As long as the victim mentality lingers through negative definitions, it takes away positive energy.

Or that's my take on it.



Greek likes this.
Cheers~~~
Posted By: traveldane Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:42 PM
fine point AAK, regarding the degree of breakdown many are at in their relationships and appropriate response, be it from the DBing tool box or arsenal of life's coping strategies.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
Well, at least you're not reading VAMPIRE NOVELS while driving ,. . .


I got a great new idea for a TV series. It's about little people vampires with multiples. "Little Bella and Steven plus 7" Whaddya think??? cool


LMFAO!!!! laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
Posted By: Thinker Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
I understand what you are saying with this SP. Between caretaking to the point of enabling, and allowing them to crash so hard it could have long term impact.

I'm also worried that if I allowed my W to crash really hard, she wouldn't bounce.


Take the training wheels off they are for kids. Risk and reward when you take your hand off the seat and let go. Risk and rewards for both participants. Parenting your spouse is frustrating and a turn-off for both people. Rescuing and enabling is just a attempt to control someone else. The only control you have is self-control. Self-control is really the way to love yourself.
Lovingly detach. Differentiate.
My wife taught me this, "I wasn't put on this earth to be your wife." She is her own special, unique, challenged and growing person. We are different and stumble over different issues. Boundaries have helped me see where I end and she starts. We are both stronger and healthier as a result.
Cheers


I don't think this is the distinction I was talking about.

If I am friends with someone and I see they are in trouble, then I let them know I am there to support them. If they ask for help, I provide it (all assuming it is reasonable). It is detached, friendly, "loving" help and support.

So much of the DBing advice here, however, seems to be "When you see your WAS in trouble, then let them fall. If they ask for help, then make sure they know you are not there to catch them." ie, provide the WAS with less support than you would give a friend.

@Aliveandkicking: Looking back on it, my W and I certainly traded our fair share of emotional abuse. Recently with the WA part, I have been more on the receiving end, but no longer. I'm feeling pretty good and independent recently. W is not abusing, just crumbing inward on herself.
Posted By: Greek Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:50 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
Well, at least you're not reading VAMPIRE NOVELS while driving ,. . .


I got a great new idea for a TV series. It's about little people vampires with multiples. "Little Bella and Steven plus 7" Whaddya think??? cool


Another proud moment for Mrs. Coach.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 03:55 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker


So much of the DBing advice here, however, seems to be "When you see your WAS in trouble, then let them fall. If they ask for help, then make sure they know you are not there to catch them." ie, provide the WAS with less support than you would give a friend.


I don't know what threads YOU'RE readin', but all I ever see is "rub their feet, clean the house, light-the-scented-candles and care for the kids while they take a bath, be-their-best-friend, etc.

Blccccch.
sick laugh

I think sometimes the best thing you can do when you love someone is to let them fail, and to teach themselves to get back up again. Especially if the "failing" is a natural consequence of some poor decision(s) on their part.

Puppy
Posted By: traveldane Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/19/09 03:55 PM
"And.. allowing the emotionally withdrawn spouse to initiate, to ask for what they need, not trying to fix them or fix things for them. Allowing growth with oneself.. and for the one you pledged your life during one of the most painful times in life."

Gypsy-
IMO this quote from you sums up one of the most difficult aspects of this whole thing.

While rationally I've recognized it as the current reality in my broken M, its so hard to resist the daily thoughts and impulses, the fight, not flight mentality, that comes so naturally.

I wanted to problem solve this most important problem I've ever faced the way I have and do with other aspects of my life. Its terrible to remind oneself over and over, the only thing to do now is nothing. Nothing for them, everything for me. And that nothing for them is also everything.

Thanks for spelling out this reminder to us all.
Posted By: antlers Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/19/09 03:58 PM
Doing nothing, in these circumstances, is actually doing something!
Posted By: DanceQueen Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 04:00 PM
SP - I am just wondering why, when she started asking "how can it be that you are doing so well?" that you didn't just tell her the truth.

"It is because I was forced into an immediate program of self-reflection when you said you were divorcing me. I had no choice but to learn how to cope with my new future. To learn that, I had to read a lot of books, talk to my counselor, and begin getting help and support from other divorced people. I have learned so much in these few months and I really am a changed man and person. At first, I was honestly only doing these things hoping to win you back. When I could see that wasn't going to work, I had to change my focus onto helping myself cope only and letting go the idea that you will ever come back. From there, I've had to make even more progress. This process has been more painful, but more enlightening, than anything I've ever gone through. You would benefit by doing a similar self-reflection process to help you cope with your future and your decisions, too".

By claiming you "don't know what she's talking about" while she is clearly confused by your ability to retain your mojo, you are being dishonest. And she could use the same tools, she really could. She is going to have an easier transition if she can really study up on things.

If you told her the above and she rejects it, then well, that's that. But what if she is open to an honest conversation about it? What if you could recommend some well-placed titles that you know would "speak" to her, and she would be willing to read them because she is seeing you do so well?

Honesty is always best.

You don't have to fork over all your DB knowledge or techniques. But being honest about the self-reflection and study is better than being vague about it..."oh I don't know why I've got so much mojo, I just do...tra la la" is not honest.

DQ
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 04:02 PM
I agree, DQ!
Posted By: Thinker Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 04:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: Thinker


So much of the DBing advice here, however, seems to be "When you see your WAS in trouble, then let them fall. If they ask for help, then make sure they know you are not there to catch them." ie, provide the WAS with less support than you would give a friend.


I don't know what threads YOU'RE readin', but all I ever see is "rub their feet, clean the house, light-the-scented-candles and care for the kids while they take a bath, be-their-best-friend, etc.

Blccccch.
sick laugh


There I agree with you 100% Puppy!

This over the top devotion is also not how you would treat a friend.

But that is not what SP was doing for his wife. He was saying "If you ever really need me, I'll be there to help you. You are not completely alone" That's what you would say to a friend.

By criticizing this as "rescuing" it seems like the only acceptable answer would be "You are right, You'll be all alone! Just you and your cats! Have a nice life! etc" I don't think you would treat a good friend this way.

Quote:
I think sometimes the best thing you can do when you love someone is to let them fail, and to teach themselves to get back up again. Especially if the "failing" is a natural consequence of some poor decision(s) on their part.


Agreed

However, I don't agree if this strays into the realm of punishment - ie "You are divorcing me, so therefore I won't be "friendi" with you in the future."
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 04:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker


This over the top devotion is also not how you would treat a friend.

But that is not what SP was doing for his wife. He was saying "If you ever really need me, I'll be there to help you. You are not completely alone" That's what you would say to a friend.

By criticizing this as "rescuing" it seems like the only acceptable answer would be "You are right, You'll be all alone! Just you and your cats! Have a nice life! etc" I don't think you would treat a good friend this way.



Oh, I know, and I wasn't referring to SP at all with the first comment.

As for the second, I respectfully disagree. I don't think you say "Have a nice life!" by any means, but I do think sometimes you have to say/project some version of: "I understand this is tough." or "I agree; this is tough on all of us." or "I can see how difficult that must be for you."

You validate, without rescuing or softening -- in my opinion. But you leave them in their crucible, because that is where a lot of the hard introspective works gets done.

Puppy
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 04:36 PM


Quote:
SP - I am just wondering why, when she started asking "how can it be that you are doing so well?" that you didn't just tell her the truth.


I think you get there when you get there, but it is really a worthwhile question.

The paradigm has shifted but SP, obviously you don't feel safe and are on guard...how you build a bridge and get to a place where there isn't an ongoing power struggle, I'm not sure. I know it feels better to be on top (minus the lingering inevitability of the power shifting again)...works for now but indefinitely...

I'm wondering SP, what would you say you have changed about YOU (not necessarily in relation to W, but as an individual) in this process? Real, lasting changes, growth? I know it is there, just wondering how you see it.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 04:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

You validate, without rescuing or softening -- in my opinion. But you leave them in their crucible, because that is where a lot of the hard introspective works gets done.


OK, so as I understand it, your references to "Rescuing" were to the places SP said or implied "Sure you'll be fine! You'll get plenty of dates! Your future life will be OK. etc"

Now I understand.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 04:46 PM
[quote=DanceQueen]SP "It is because I was forced into an immediate program of self-reflection when you said you were divorcing me. I had no choice but to learn how to cope with my new future. To learn that, I had to read a lot of books, talk to my counselor, and begin getting help and support from other divorced people. I have learned so much in these few months and I really am a changed man and person. At first, I was honestly only doing these things hoping to win you back. When I could see that wasn't going to work, I had to change my focus onto helping myself cope only and letting go the idea that you will ever come back. From there, I've had to make even more progress. This process has been more painful, but more enlightening, than anything I've ever gone through.]/quote

I love it! Great way to explain it. I'll be sure to take this tack (if W ever asks about more than the weather) frown
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 04:54 PM
If I might weigh in here, I think we're going from the sublime to the ridiculous. First, my take on WAW's question was and is that it was rhetorical - she knows that I've been introspecting: she's seen me reading, she's asked about what I do in therapy, she's even (by her own admission) snuck a look at my notebook and journal. No, this was more like one of those Hollywood Spit-Take "I don't get its!"

On rescuing - why do "some" (as they like to say on Fox News when they mean "we") do so much infantilizing of the Wayward? "Take the training wheels off" -- for crying out loud.

There's a world of difference between not allowing someone to fail absolutely and not allowing someone to fail.

But I'll take all the advice I can get, and I'll go the whole "fall to the bottom of the well" enchilada when someone can answer this question persuasively:

2 weeks after she moves out, WAW will have custody of the children. How will a devastated, alone, miserable, suffering WAW be good for my children?

Discuss amongst yourselves.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 04:58 PM
Quote:
The paradigm has shifted but SP, obviously you don't feel safe and are on guard


Ditto my earlier -- it was a rhetorical question, not an inquiring one.
Posted By: Coach Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 04:59 PM
Quote:
As for the second, I respectfully disagree. I don't think you say "Have a nice life!" by any means, but I do think sometimes you have to say/project some version of: "I understand this is tough." or "I agree; this is tough on all of us." or "I can see how difficult that must be for you."


When I advocate being friends while in the DB mode it is of the "tough love" approach. It's business like, it's centered on my best interests, it's brutally honest and it's loving at the core. The reason it works is because like what Gucci preaches is that I am "moving on," I am a better me - secure and confident (did the work on myself), I won't repeat/tolerate unhealthy relationship patterns, I am leading myself out of this mess and if you want to be married to me great hop on board.
One of the hardest things I had to do was hire a lawyer, scared me to death. My biggest screw ups around my wife involved legal stuff. But I know that playing legal hard ball back showed that I was not going to roll over. I know it scared my wife as well because it was part of the "moving on" process. Your friend sues you, how are you going to act? I understand the confusion and fine line this represents. I am getting a knot in my stomach just thinking about this. The nice guy, friend in me had a hard time taking this step.
My wife moving out/filing D papers was not a "friendly" gesture but it showed me she was moving on. It was actually a loving gesture for herself and in the long run for me. She broke the unhealthy patterns. Moving on means I care enough about myself to take care of myself. We project that out as being selfish, in a fog, and having a wall up. Moving on is saying to yourself that you matter. You are moving on to a healthier, wiser, stronger and richer place for yourself. People notice movement, the waiting place is a slow death and not attractive. Healthy, vibrant movement is a deal-maker. Move is a verb so go get busy.

Cheers
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

You validate, without rescuing or softening -- in my opinion. But you leave them in their crucible, because that is where a lot of the hard introspective works gets done.


OK, so as I understand it, your references to "Rescuing" were to the places SP said or implied "Sure you'll be fine! You'll get plenty of dates! Your future life will be OK. etc"

Now I understand.


I think we give ourselves WAY too much credit. SP isn't softening it, he is putting it back on her IMO...he is contradicting her, she doesn't believe it and she wont, she'll just think "Why the hell is so f'in together?" She does not sound like a stupid or gullible woman. On the contrary, bright, a bit crass (hey, I like it) and tough...

And, I think the subtext is "Go, my love, live it out. Experience you're crucible. You'll survive and so will I"...

Again, I'm not sure how the sparring and sexual innuendo lead to real communication...but, we shall see.
Posted By: Coach Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:04 PM
Quote:
2 weeks after she moves out, WAW will have custody of the children. How will a devastated, alone, miserable, suffering WAW be good for my children?


I won't be good and you will have no control over it. Sucks to be you. wink

That's the letting go of things you have no control over.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:06 PM
Ahhh, but I do have (some) control over it. I can help her stay off the bottom of the well. "If you need me to...." will make it easier for her to watch my kids.

Although the other way could be good too. I could drop them off, they could be plopped in front of the television with a box of Froot Loops and a 12-pack of soda pop, while WAW spends 48 hours in her room. Yeah, that'll work.

I mean, does anyone really believe that on the Mon-Tues-Wed-Thurs nites that she's home, alone, eating cold left-over pizza, she's not going to be introspecting? Caricature much?
Posted By: Greek Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:09 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
"Why are you doing so much better than I am?"

This was the opening gambit in a brief tel-convo with WAW last night.

Umm, sorry?

"You were devastated. It was disgusting. It -- "

Wow. I disgusted you.

" -- no, okay, bad word choice. It wasn't pleasant to see, that's for sure. But now. I don't get it. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop."


Possible translation:

"SP, you SEEM like you are changing and I notice this. It has my attention. I'm beginning to trust you enough to admit that I don't think I am doing as well with all of this. But I still reserve enough distrust to inquire about the other shoe."

I remember being in this place with Coach.

Looks like progress to me. Press on.
Cheers ~~~
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:11 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Quote:
The paradigm has shifted but SP, obviously you don't feel safe and are on guard


Ditto my earlier -- it was a rhetorical question, not an inquiring one.


Ya, I didn't say it wasn't appropriate in the context of that conversation...just wonder how it goes down or went down within the R. I mean you will always win with your wit and cleverness.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:12 PM
No comprendo that last bit.
Posted By: Coach Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:17 PM
Quote:
I mean, does anyone really believe that on the Mon-Tues-Wed-Thurs nites that she's home, alone, eating cold left-over pizza, she's not going to be introspecting? Caricature much?


The real question is, what is SP (SmartyPants) going to be doing?
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:17 PM
Being outwitted is intimidating.

I really don't want to read any more into it because you do seem to know when to shoot straight and really be there. Seeing as we don't have video, I think it is for you to ponder.

I'm not trying to be cryptic. Sometimes things just stand out and it did so I commented on it.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:24 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson


But I'll take all the advice I can get, and I'll go the whole "fall to the bottom of the well" enchilada when someone can answer this question persuasively:

2 weeks after she moves out, WAW will have custody of the children. How will a devastated, alone, miserable, suffering WAW be good for my children?

Discuss amongst yourselves.


Because based on your descriptions of her, she's a strong, capable woman, and I don't see her being "devasted, miserable and suffering" simply because you don't reassure her every time in conversation she begins to make herself vulnerable and discuss her fears and doubts.

Smiley, I'm not questioning your method. I'm only questioning the degree. I just think that SOMETIMES you should let her remain in her crucible when she expresses her doubts and fears, while still validating her similar to how I suggested it above.

Puppy
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:25 PM
Perhaps. But the other thing is -- I can't say for certain that I want her to come back. Maybe I'll just keep rescuing her until she's gone, and I'm clear.

Curious, eh?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:31 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Perhaps. But the other thing is -- I can't say for certain that I want her to come back. Maybe I'll just keep rescuing her until she's gone, and I'm clear.

Curious, eh?


Yes, you are. But we love you anyway. smile
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:32 PM
Quote:
Although the other way could be good too. I could drop them off, they could be plopped in front of the television with a box of Froot Loops and a 12-pack of soda pop, while WAW spends 48 hours in her room. Yeah, that'll work.


SP- has it occurred to you that she may need to learn how to be a mom? I think it is the thing that makes her feel the worst about herself (that lack of maternal instinct and proficiency)...and by worst I mean look back at how she has described herself...it is baaaaad.

I think you need to get out of the way and at least give her a chance to figure that out (bonding, parenting)...has to happen with a lot of Hs and I so relate to how threatening it can be when it involves our children.

This issue occurred to me a while back but I sort of let it lie but now that you've expressed so clearly how incapable she is of parenting, I think it is a very real hurdle for both of you.
Posted By: Greek Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:39 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Ahhh, but I do have (some) control over it. I can help her stay off the bottom of the well. "If you need me to...." will make it easier for her to watch my kids.

Although the other way could be good too. I could drop them off, they could be plopped in front of the television with a box of Froot Loops and a 12-pack of soda pop, while WAW spends 48 hours in her room. Yeah, that'll work.

I mean, does anyone really believe that on the Mon-Tues-Wed-Thurs nites that she's home, alone, eating cold left-over pizza, she's not going to be introspecting? Caricature much?


Are you saying that she won't mother your children? I'm not sure I understand your point here.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:44 PM
Greek, I think he's saying (to me) that she's going to have PLENTY of time for instrospection when she's alone and without SP.

I stand by my original point, however, and that is -- in these conversations, when she shows real vulnerability about her fears and doubts -- that SP would be better service (and so would Mrs. SP!) if he wouldn't do so much humor/rescuing/softening, and instead went with a "I understand, that must be difficult" vague validation approach.

Puppy
Posted By: orangedog Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 05:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach
When I advocate being friends while in the DB mode it is of the "tough love" approach. It's business like, it's centered on my best interests, it's brutally honest and it's loving at the core. The reason it works is because like what Gucci preaches is that I am "moving on," I am a better me - secure and confident (did the work on myself), I won't repeat/tolerate unhealthy relationship patterns, I am leading myself out of this mess and if you want to be married to me great hop on board.
One of the hardest things I had to do was hire a lawyer, scared me to death. My biggest screw ups around my wife involved legal stuff. But I know that playing legal hard ball back showed that I was not going to roll over. I know it scared my wife as well because it was part of the "moving on" process. Your friend sues you, how are you going to act? I understand the confusion and fine line this represents. I am getting a knot in my stomach just thinking about this. The nice guy, friend in me had a hard time taking this step.
My wife moving out/filing D papers was not a "friendly" gesture but it showed me she was moving on. It was actually a loving gesture for herself and in the long run for me. She broke the unhealthy patterns. Moving on means I care enough about myself to take care of myself. We project that out as being selfish, in a fog, and having a wall up. Moving on is saying to yourself that you matter. You are moving on to a healthier, wiser, stronger and richer place for yourself. People notice movement, the waiting place is a slow death and not attractive. Healthy, vibrant movement is a deal-maker. Move is a verb so go get busy.

Cheers


Damn Straight!

One of the best things I ever said to her was during that last week in reference to feeling squashed and a SSM. "I'm looking inside and I'm doing this work because whether it's with you or someone else, I won't allow those things to happen in a relationship again."
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 06:00 PM
Smiley Man..

Because of a very rebellious teenager, I started reading on how to talk with teens. I learned to use simple declarative statements, talk less than they did (if they said 12 worlds, I'd say 8; if they said 5, I'd say 3) and listen. And to allow awkward silence. If my mouth stayed shut, my teenager would eventually start talking to fill in the silence. After all, what's brewing beneath the surface takes a while to percolate. It came in handy when my spouse abruptly left.

This same teenager would angrily snarl that "I (Gypsy) always knew just the right thing to say, that I always had all the answers." Huh? I thought that was a GOOD thing!

"Codependent No More" is one of the best books I've ever read. I never realized I was a poster child for codependence. Everything I'd done had been to help others, part of taking care of the ones I loved. Imagine my shock when I realized that what I thought was helpful was controlling and in the end hurtful.

It's a learning process not to 'help', double check, do it all. People.. spouses, children, friends.. learn by doing not by being told. And I truly believed I was someone who let my kids learn.. but whoops.. I did too much. They could learn but I had trouble letting them fail. Phrases like "I need your help for..." works wonders.

Your wife will struggle with her relationship with your children. Lots of things will be different.

You (and she) can learn a lot by just letting her talk. By learning to be honest, to know what is and isn't appropriate.

*hugs*

Ooops.. hope this isn't me 'fixing'!
Posted By: orangedog Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 06:02 PM
How far to let them fall? Hmm... can't say but they NEED to do the work too.

Smiley's right. Kids sitting in front of the TV with a 12 pack of cola isn't good. But the W needs to own this decision too. And that means owning all of it - kids, extended family, house, bills, etc. If the W needs to learn how to interact with the kids (as mine is now) then she needs to learn it.

Once again I can't visit Crazyville (her house and life) anymore. I've got my life, my little island of sanity (term used loosely), and my work to do. I do great things with my kids. I control that.

Right now I'm quiet. I've tried hard and I need a break. She knows the door is open if she wants to talk.

Posted By: Greek Re: Power Shift - 06/19/09 06:53 PM
Originally Posted By: orangedog
How far to let them fall?


Fall?

She's not falling. She's on a journey.
Posted By: pollyanna Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/19/09 11:01 PM
Quote:
When WAS comes to you and says ILYBNILWY, s/he's taking Absolute Power over the sitch. And one of the reasons (IMHO) that LBS freaks and does all that nasty icky stuff we do, is the feeling of utter powerlessness. I felt that way a long time (in relative terms). And then I decided not to. Now I'm wielding the power here and WAW's game is off-kilter.


IMO That is exactly right. As a WAS I felt powerful and self esteem was at all time high. AS LBS I felt the loss of power, control of my life (or so I thought )and I felt like crap. Could not function.

Then it does happen, you take a tiny step towards taking some of your control back. Something as small as - not taking that phone call from WAS or answering an email. Then it takes on a life of its own. Sometimes moving forward and sometimes back, but never so far back that you are at the beginning.

You do start questioning WAS appeal ! But I think you have to be careful here not to form an opinion when you are surrounded in this drama. Do nothing that could be long term damaging or hurtful. Wait till the embers of the fires die down and then I think you will see if there is anything left in the ash to rebuild.

SP dont build your ego up so high that your head gets lost in the clouds. OR you will be like me and it sucks to be me !
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Black Cat Bone In My Gris-Gris Bag - 06/20/09 01:50 AM
Let's get down to cases. As I write, seven days hence, this house - which WAW wanted, which WAW picked out, which WAW decorated - will have no WAW. I have every reason to expect that she will learn to cope with the changes to come, that she'll learn to manage these kids, that she'll remember to go to the supermarket (the other day WAW said, only half-jokingly, "I'll never have any fresh food again without you"), and that she'll experience pain and pleasure, grief and joy, sadness and laughter, frustration and anticipation, loss and gain, fear and courage, despair and hope.

And I have every reason to expect that my telling her she's okizay, that it's not the End Times, and that she can call on me to pitch in with some helping hands every now and again isn't about to change that. And I wouldn't want her to "cross the bridge" because she can't make it without me - I would want her to know that in fact she can make it without me but chooses not to.

But right now I'm quaffing the champagne of beers, and there's some French Onion dip surrounded by tasty chips - the kind with ridges - calling to me.
Gotta get Bugles, SP. Nothing goes with french onion dip like good ol' BUGLES. laugh
Posted By: fb2 Re: Power Shift - 06/20/09 07:03 AM
"You are moving on to a healthier, wiser, stronger and richer place for yourself."

Really? I don't believe that's a valid argument to make D more palatable in general. It may be valid in cases of planned temporary separation with intent to improve the marriage. When you've lost half your time with the precious kids and their lives are potentially messed up, the family is broken, there is so much wasted as a result of divorce? When you are deprived of half your assets including half your retirement and future earnings and your WAW is off living with or having sex with OMs? When all this is done with intent and finality and often with stupidity and an awareness of how hurtful it is? Why choose to be: (1) unhappily married or (2) divorced when there was always a much better path which the WA chose to repeatedly ignore? I don't buy the suing at all! It may be permitted by man's law but its certainly not God's law. It's a very brutal and destructive act and reflects a certain lack of respect for life and basic understanding of what marriage and family was intended to be. Sorry, I'm getting sick of this "validating" and rationalization approach. If WAW's weren't so "rewarded" for their actions they would choose the 3rd option much more frequently. People are having affairs and MLC's and doing all sorts of nonsense and are not "at fault" for it; they are actually rewarded for it. Sorry I simply do not agree with validating people who file for D for stupid or selfish reasons. Divorce is willful, state sponsored destruction!!! The best some of us can do for ourselves is forgive the WA and the legal system in order to keep our sanity. But what continues to go on remains plain wrong and there needs to be much better awareness of this.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/20/09 01:20 PM
@fb2 offers a rich and multi-faceted comment -- much "thicker" than it first appears. I've had to chew it over for a few hours.

Quote:
"You are moving on to a healthier, wiser, stronger and richer place for yourself."

Really? I don't believe that's a valid argument to make D more palatable in general.
I'm intrigued by the "in general" there at the end. To what does it refer? Did you mean, "I don't believe in general that's a valid argument to make," as if to say your general beliefs are...? Did you mean "I don't believe that's a valid argument in general..." as if to say that usually it's an invalid argument? Or did you mean "to make D more palatable in general," as if to suggest that the way one person copes has an effect on the global attitude towards divorce? Because if it's the latter, I think that's an inappropriate comment -- the sum of individuals' coping mechanisms does not equal social approval/disapproval of divorce society-wide.

Quote:
When you've lost half your time with the precious kids
This is an assumption. In my sitch, I have 60-65% custody, so I lose comparatively little. And it's not at all clear to me that one MUST lose any time, depending upon how the divorce is managed. Again in my sitch, WAW will have several instances of 10-14 days' custody in a row -- because I have long overseas business trips. But I always had long overseas business trips, so she "gains" nothing and I "lose" nothing. So it seems to me to be reaching a bit to try to draw a generalized "rule" in this instance.

Quote:
and their lives are potentially messed up
It is clearly the case that divorce is a net "bad" for childrens' lives. But as a friend recently pointed out to me, the 17-year-old son of our high school classmate recently committed suicide, and they were the Model American Family. So there's lots of ways in which one's life can be "potentially messed up." It happens to be the case that divorce is (or ought to be) one of the more avoidable ways.

Quote:
the family is broken
I used to take a strong position like yours on this, but now I'm not so sure. As I've been talking to my son since Kid D-Bomb, I've come to think of this in a different way. There are lots of kinds of families. My mother, for example, was raised for a considerable period of time by her grandmother. Family. My parents were divorced, but We Three (Mom, Brother, and Smiley's Persons) were a family, and we spent a lot of time with gparents and aunt/uncle/cousins -- family. And I asked my son what would have happened had I been killed in Iraq instead of having the good fortune to come through? Would he and sister and mom not be a family? So I think (for my POV only -- not putting this on you, fb2) that one form of the family is broken, but Family is, perhaps, merely dented.

Quote:
When you are deprived of half your assets including half your retirement and future earnings
That's an irritation -- and for some, like @Thinker, far more than an irritation. In my sitch, it's WAW's irritation, earning as she does 4x what I do.

Quote:
and your WAW is off living with or having sex with OMs?
If she's a single person, why shouldn't she be having sex? I certainly intend to. And with respect to the latter, my friend recently learned that his W has been having sex with OMs for 15 years. So the fact that he was "married" had comparatively little impact on that. The whole alpha-male, cuckoldry, etc. etc. thing doesn't really play with me, I'm afraid. WAW's post-D sex life is none of my business.

Quote:
When all this is done with intent and finality and often with stupidity and an awareness of how hurtful it is?
I agree that it is both stupid and hurtful. But I don't have control over the stupidity piece. I do have control, + or -, over how hurtful it is by the way I choose to act, react, and evaluate.

Quote:
Why choose to be: (1) unhappily married or (2) divorced when there was always a much better path which the WA chose to repeatedly ignore?
Assumptions carry a whole lot of the explanatory power in this one sentence! Quite apart from my own sitch, why assume "there was always a much better path"? That's a retrospective evaluation.

But if we learn anything from fine colleagues like @Greek and @DanceQueen and @pollyanna [and I'm referring to women because I don't recall there being a WAH or AWAH poster here? Anyone?], it's that your claim -- "there was always a much better path" -- is to the Walkaway by no means an obvious one. That's what MWD writes -- "logical" arguments about "better paths" have no effect on Walkaway because it doesn't seem logical to her/him.

And what if there isn't a "better path"? Here, too, MWD notes that not all marriages can be saved and, more importantly, not all marriages should be saved. In my own life, for example, it is clear to me that divorce was absolutely the best thing for my parents.

Quote:
I don't buy the suing at all! It may be permitted by man's law but its certainly not God's law.
Suffice it to say that not all of us live in accordance with your god's law, either personally or as a society. And marriage is, at the end of the day, a judicial creation, not a theological one. The gods can say you're married until the cows come home, but until you have a certification of marriage from the secular state, you're just shacking up. So I can see where this would cause anguish in the hearts and souls of the faithful, but in my case it's not operational.

Quote:
reflects a certain lack of respect for life and basic understanding of what marriage and family was intended to be.
That's a pretty bold statement. A lot of hubris there. Though I long ago abandoned them institutionally, the teachings of the Jesuit fathers always have a way of cropping up in my mind, and I seem to recall them admonishing us not to over-reach in our claims of "basic understanding." Without straying too far afield, I had occasion once to engage some very interesting historical work on the evolution of marriage as a social institution, and there is a great deal of evidence that what we consider to be "normal" marriage and family is really an artifact of the Protestant Reformation and only emerged in a recognizable form between 1550 and 1700. Even a cursory reading of the Old Testament certainly reveals a pretty flexible definition of "family" (how those old goomers managed to keep pumping out the babies....).

There's a point at which raging against the prevailing weather patterns becomes somewhat self-destructive, I think.

Quote:
Sorry, I'm getting sick of this "validating" and rationalization approach.
That's certainly your prerogative and no "sorry" is required. I wouldn't necessarily conflate the " 'validating' and rationalization approach" with approval of divorce as an institution. If I understand the DB method correctly -- a problematic assumption, but that's another discussion -- one is validating WAS's feelings, not course of action, because refusing to validate them would likely be perceived as an "attack" and would serve only to push WAS farther away. That might be satisfying from moralistic and/or revenge-centered frame, but would -- it is said -- be counterproductive in terms of regaining the relationships.

Quote:
If WAW's weren't so "rewarded" for their actions they would choose the 3rd option much more frequently.
Based on what evidence? Are we expected to believe that the 40%-50% divorce rate in this country has been produced by amicable divorces? Whether divorce is juridically "easy" or not is beside the point -- do you really believe that if one attacked and cursed and damned WAS, the marriage would be saved? Among other things, you seem to be giving yourself (metaphorically) a free ride. So LBS is perfect and it's all WAS's fault?

Quote:
People are having affairs and MLC's and doing all sorts of nonsense and are not "at fault" for it; they are actually rewarded for it.
Where has anyone ever said that? (And in terms of the MLC, I'm not at all convinced by your argument. My understanding is that the MLC is involuntary.)

Quote:
Sorry I simply do not agree with validating people who file for D for stupid or selfish reasons.
And who is the Stupidity and Selfish Judge? Each LBS? It seems to me that in at least some sitch's WAS is the Stupidity and Selfish Judge -- WAS says, "Hey LBS -- you've been Stupid and Selfish in this marriage, and I'm done." And what about those who file for smart and excellent reasons (from their own POV or even objectively [i.e., physical abuse, addiction])?

Quote:
Divorce is willful, state sponsored destruction!!!
I completely disagree. If anything, the state makes it much HARDER to get a divorce than to get married. Blood test, 20 bucks for a license -- and Bob's Your Uncle, you're married. Divorced? Mandatory waiting periods (so much for state-sponsored), division of assets, (often) mandatory restraining orders, court filings, court fees, (often) mandated parenting plans, custodial supervision, litigation..... Doesn't sound all that easy to me.

Quote:
The best some of us can do for ourselves is forgive the WA and the legal system in order to keep our sanity.
True enough. But doesn't forgiveness include precisely the kinds of acceptance that you're rejecting earlier in your post?

Quote:
But what continues to go on remains plain wrong and there needs to be much better awareness of this.
I don't believe there isn't awareness of it. I don't think anyone -- not even the authors of the silly "how to have a good divorce" books -- think Divorce as an institution is a social good.

That was a very passionate post, fb2, and I'm glad you put it up here. I'm sure it will generate very interesting discussion.
Posted By: mindfull Re: Power Shift - 06/20/09 02:24 PM
SP-
Thought it appropriate to post this on your thread entitled, Power Shift" this am.

Peaks, valleys, ups, downs, rollercoasters, ebb and flow... After feeling lowest of low the past few days, I've been tasked w/what makes me feel rejected, what makes me happy, etc...

I believe I have found some personal mojo.

Thank you (and a few others) for my own "Power Shift.". Now, back to SP!
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Power Shift - 06/20/09 03:41 PM
Originally Posted By: fb2
"You are moving on to a healthier, wiser, stronger and richer place for yourself."

Really? I don't believe that's a valid argument to make D more palatable in general. It may be valid in cases of planned temporary separation with intent to improve the marriage. When you've lost half your time with the precious kids and their lives are potentially messed up, the family is broken, there is so much wasted as a result of divorce? When you are deprived of half your assets including half your retirement and future earnings and your WAW is off living with or having sex with OMs? When all this is done with intent and finality and often with stupidity and an awareness of how hurtful it is? Why choose to be: (1) unhappily married or (2) divorced when there was always a much better path which the WA chose to repeatedly ignore? I don't buy the suing at all! It may be permitted by man's law but its certainly not God's law. It's a very brutal and destructive act and reflects a certain lack of respect for life and basic understanding of what marriage and family was intended to be. Sorry, I'm getting sick of this "validating" and rationalization approach. If WAW's weren't so "rewarded" for their actions they would choose the 3rd option much more frequently. People are having affairs and MLC's and doing all sorts of nonsense and are not "at fault" for it; they are actually rewarded for it. Sorry I simply do not agree with validating people who file for D for stupid or selfish reasons. Divorce is willful, state sponsored destruction!!! The best some of us can do for ourselves is forgive the WA and the legal system in order to keep our sanity. But what continues to go on remains plain wrong and there needs to be much better awareness of this.



fb2- Minus the religious segment, I really feel/have felt your post. I think we all have or we wouldn't be on this site.

But, it seems the only way to prove ourselves right and WAS wrong, would be for we LBSs to make sure that we and our children are ultra-f*cked up and miserable so that we exhibit to the WAS the destructiveness of their behavior.

I hate the idea that the kids and I thriving without H might elicit some "see I told you we'd all be better off" but the alternative is unacceptable...the freedom comes from letting them think whatever they want and do whatever they want with their own lives. That is the path that validating trains us for...in the years to come the multitude of moments that could bring us to our knees, our strength is in coping and living, loving, laughing in spite of it all.

I just don't see how I can be happy with my bitterness and judgment in my back pocket. I don't see how aging myself with cynicism and suspicion will benefit anyone (especially my children).

It sucks. If we had a way to clobber the WAS into compliance, I'm sure we would but, sadly they have free will... grin

As for society, I DO think we are in an exceptionally narcissistic era. Even the "enlightened" have defined happiness as tantamount to "instant self-gratification"...perhaps this is an evolutionary phase we have to go through.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Power Shift - 06/20/09 05:40 PM
Originally Posted By: fb2
"You are moving on to a healthier, wiser, stronger and richer place for yourself."


Yes, this line does sound like something fed to a WAW by an marriage counselor of the variety described in the DB chapter "When Therapy Hurts." And as you point out in your thread there seem to be many things in present society that encourage divorce. It's too bad. But the fact remains, I can't do a damn thing about it. All I can do is what Gandhi says: "Be the change you want to see in the world."

You're kind of preaching to the choir here. We've all been left. None of us wanted this to happen. None of us would advocate divorce (except in situations of abuse). The other side probably wouldn't advocate divorce either but they somehow beleive it's their only solution.

If I were to use the above statement myself, it wouldn't come from "divorce is a better place to be". It would come from, "I need to stop the suffering". I don't want to move on but I need to. I have to survive. Bitterness, sorrow, regret, and the whole K-Tel "It Sucks to Be Me" collection" (only $19.95 operators standing by) only continue the pain.

There are some out there who never let anger and pain go. Perhaps you know someone like this. Years, even decades later they are still consumed. They've wasted years of life and energy fighting instead of working for peace. And for what?

It's not validation: "You're right, divorce is so much better". It's: "I can't change your mind. I can only be the best me I can be. I will be the change I want to see."

---



And now a word from my sponsor:

"S/he abused me, S/he beat me, S/he defeated me, S/he robbed me,'' in those who harbor such thoughts hatred (suffering) never ceases.

"S/he abused me, S/he beat me, S/he defeated me, S/he robbed me,'' in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred (suffering) ceases."


Buddha
The Dhammapada Ch 1. Twin Verses



Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/20/09 07:54 PM
Originally Posted By: orangedog
Originally Posted By: fb2
"You are moving on to a healthier, wiser, stronger and richer place for yourself."


Yes, this line does sound like something fed to a WAW by an marriage counselor of the variety described in the DB chapter "When Therapy Hurts." And as you point out in your thread there seem to be many things in present society that encourage divorce. It's too bad. But the fact remains, I can't do a damn thing about it. All I can do is what Gandhi says: "Be the change you want to see in the world."

You're kind of preaching to the choir here. We've all been left. None of us wanted this to happen. None of us would advocate divorce (except in situations of abuse). The other side probably wouldn't advocate divorce either but they somehow beleive it's their only solution.

If I were to use the above statement myself, it wouldn't come from "divorce is a better place to be". It would come from, "I need to stop the suffering". I don't want to move on but I need to. I have to survive. Bitterness, sorrow, regret, and the whole K-Tel "It Sucks to Be Me" collection" (only $19.95 operators standing by) only continue the pain.

There are some out there who never let anger and pain go. Perhaps you know someone like this. Years, even decades later they are still consumed. They've wasted years of life and energy fighting instead of working for peace. And for what?

It's not validation: "You're right, divorce is so much better". It's: "I can't change your mind. I can only be the best me I can be. I will be the change I want to see."

---



And now a word from my sponsor:

"S/he abused me, S/he beat me, S/he defeated me, S/he robbed me,'' in those who harbor such thoughts hatred (suffering) never ceases.

"S/he abused me, S/he beat me, S/he defeated me, S/he robbed me,'' in those who do not harbor such thoughts hatred (suffering) ceases."


Buddha
The Dhammapada Ch 1. Twin Verses





I think there's a world of difference between this:

Quote:
"I can't change your mind. I can only be the best me I can be. I will be the change I want to see."


and THIS:

Quote:
"You are moving on to a healthier, wiser, stronger and richer place for yourself."


Puppy
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/20/09 08:41 PM
Am I misreading the entire discussion?

Quote:
I think there's a world of difference between this:
Quote:
"I can't change your mind. I can only be the best me I can be. I will be the change I want to see."
and THIS:
Quote:
"You are moving on to a healthier, wiser, stronger and richer place for yourself."


Because I think somewhere along the line someone's got a bit off-track in the interpretation department.

**this (can't change your mind) is/was said to WAS by LBS.

**THIS (moving on to better place) is/was said to LBS by another LBS. No one has proposed saying THIS to WAS, not that I can see.

So unless someone is objecting to one LBS telling another LBS that by DB'ing s/he is moving on to a better place, I'm not sure what all the controversy is about....
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/20/09 10:30 PM
Far from my usual self, I'm actually rather p*ssed at WAW today. Here it is, the end of the day, the last weekend she will live in this house, with these kids, and she's managed to concoct a half-dozen reasons to be out and to be out at least half the day tomorrow. She takes the opportunity - rather gleefully, I might add - to absent herself instead of doing what is presumably (to her) the intolerably hard work of being a mother - and with me home. Is it any wonder that I question her skillset from time-to-time. But then this is typical for her - anything to be out of the house, away from the kids, and on her own, a pattern since 2004 at least.
Posted By: orangedog Re: Power Shift - 06/21/09 12:10 AM
Familiar pattern for my W for at least a few years too.

It's the last weekend with kids. Spell it out.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/21/09 12:47 AM
Oh I did. The I told her I was going to the movies after dinner. "What are you seeing?" I don't know - whatever they're showing. "Are you trying to avoid me?" No, just haven't been in a while. (pause) Avoiding you is simply an extra bennie. That way you can concentrate on those two.

I mean. Really. I'll only tolerate enabling so much.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Power Shift - 06/21/09 01:11 AM
SP- No fear mongering here but brace yourself. The actual physical departure sucks and the subsequent navigation is quite exhausting. On the upside, there is some peace and space and relief once the anticipated unthinkable has been executed...you just move into a new dimension of coping.

Every kids exchange, every interaction has an unpredictable element to it...similar to having the WAS in the house yet the sensations are different.

My point, breathe and be brave.
Posted By: fb2 Re: Power Shift - 06/21/09 07:35 AM
Hey SP, I was mostly venting my frustrations after reading page after page of this sort of hypnotic DB mantra that I quoted. That said, I see your 'sitch' is very atypical in many important respects esp. the custody and financial (these are the BIG ones) - if you were a typical LBH and the primary wage earner you would most likely have gotten the short end of the stick in these areas on top of all the emotional pain and you'd be a lot more p*ssed. And often the WAW is hostile or extremely wayward requiring a lot of court battle. On top of that I do not identify at all with your cultural, moral, family and religious views unfortunately - to each his own in this regard I guess. But other LBS's may resonate with what I've said. At any rate back to your mojo generation.
Posted By: mindfull Re: Power Shift - 06/21/09 03:53 PM
Happy Father's Day, SP! smile
Posted By: Thinker Re: Power Shift - 06/21/09 04:17 PM
Hi FB2,

As the LBS and the primary wage earner, I feel and struggle with exactly the same anger that you were feeling when you wrote. My W is not being very aggressive in her walking away, but her opinions and beliefs about what a "fair" separation / divorce would be are frightening and make me angry.

Exactly as you describe, the WAS (WAW) would like to walk away and maintain

- Almost full custody of the kids ("I am, after all", said she, " their primary caretaker" "You don't need to be superdad - you can see them on the weekends")

- Possession of the home we chose, and I remodeled with my own hands ("It's the best for the kids" said she, "You wouldn't want to disrupt them")

- Half of my savings, assets, and future earnings ("Just because you have a career and I haven't worked" she said, "Doesn't mean it's your money. We split it all 50/50, that's how it works"

This leaves the WAW with a house, salary to support her without having to work, unlimited time to spend with her kids, and someone to watch the kids for her on the weekends when she want's to go out with her new love life.

This leaves the LBS living and starting over, forced to work hard and live on half of his income, panicked of the prospects of layoffs, etc which could reduce his income, and only able to see his kids on the weekends or otherwise at the whim of WAW.

This is the panic, worst case scenario that FB2 was describing. I also understand his anger at the courts, because in defending the W's ability to leave a controlling or abusive M, they seem to set up the ability of a WAW to walk away with all the benefits and leave the LBH carrying the burden - in effect punishing the LBH when it is the WAW who refused to stay.
Posted By: Gardener Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/22/09 02:49 AM
Smiley, Your question yesterday re: are there any similarities between W's D1 and current sitch was a very profound one. And while I'm fairly sure it was rhetorical and intended as food for thought, I can't help but wonder why you asked it. And I think the answer may interest you.

Anyway, rhetorical or not, whether you're a psychologist or not, I was wondering if you would mosey on over to my thread and give me your thoughts on it when you get a chance...
Thanks.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/22/09 12:38 PM
@Gardener - I'll go check that out momentarily.

@fb2 and @Thinker -- I get that your sitch's are different. But (as WAW has been all-too-ready to point out) "divorce" is only about the money; divorce -- conceptually, emotionally, psychologically -- is about the flip-side of divorce-busting: You, your mental wherewithal, etc. So it has been useful for me to not confound the one with the other -- to firewall off the juridical from the emotional. Lawyers are for the former; this board is (among other things) for the latter (for me, anyway).

Last night at dinner WAW was rambling on about moving out Friday, and I was rambling on about my ever-increasing to-do list and mentioned that I thought it would be useful to have at least one divorce-box checked each month.

What's the big hurry? asks WAW. And she's goes off on this somewhat incoherent discourse on how moving out "is the big thing" and once that's done as far as she's concerned the legal bit can linger and linger because we'll be "on our own" and can do "whatever we want" and etc.

After my initial -- though unspoken -- reaction, which focused on the "do whatever we want" bit, I realized -- she's stalling. She's absolutely stalling. Now why would she do that when stalling costs her more money than finalizing?

(FYI, per state/county formula, temporary spousal support > permanent spousal support, and remember that I'm the supportee, since I focused on kid-stuff > professional stuff, where WAW was professional > kids).

So, being me, I thought I'd push her to the door a bit and see what happens.

So I pointed out that, from my POV, the old Macbeth Doctrine applied: If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly. I feel that there should be some forward progress toward the Final D; I can't imagine that the lingering Limboland (thanks @Thinker) would sit well with me, and at the risk of projecting I'd imagine it would be the same with her.

Ah! WAW interrupted. Limboland is okay with me. Because (then a repeat of above)....

Well, says I, I guess I just don't feel that way.

And WAW gets all suspicious and asks why I feel that way. There's only two reasons why I'd want the divorce finalized -- money or marriage, so.....

You're thinking of getting married again! says she. Oh, that would be a disaster. Oh, that would be terrible. You shouldn't do that.... (That was pretty effin' sweet, I gotta say. I mean, she went off on a thorough-going review of all the reasons why it would be a really bad decision for me to even THINK about getting married again. She was really into it. All I could do not to grin.....)

The reason, I said, is irrelevant to this discussion. What's relevant is the way I feel. And I don't know that I will be able to cope as well with the uncertainty of Limboland as I would with the finality of Divorceland.

She then said things that are very much in line with @Greek's recent comments on @Thinker's thread (and can I just say how much I love that these discussions of all of ours weave in and out the way they do?) -- she just wants to move out, get settled. It's too much! Too much! She can't think straight, etc. etc.

Well, thinks I (though don't say it out loud), tough sh*t sweetie-pie. You called the tune; you pay the piper. It's not my job to make it easy or to give you space to get comfortable with it step-by-step. I need to be comfortable, too, and I'm 50% of this thing, and I'm all about me -- just like you were the day you declared Game Over.

So I twisted the old knife a bit more. Well, look, if I'd been the one to declare "I'm done" -- and then I repeated a lot of the things she's said to me, starting with ILYBNILWY, and she got more and more visibly uncomfortable hearing them out loud -- I'd be done. Not wanting to live in suspended animation. So that's how I understand it from my POV.

We dropped it at that point because Real Life intervened, but I had to again fight the urge to grin because later that night, while we were watching TV (trying to close out the TiVo file before WAW takes it to her new house!), she paused the show in the middle and out of the clear blue asked, "No, really, why IS it better for you for the divorce to be final?"

I'm not sure what to make of this seeming urge to stall and delay. I know that time is my friend. Why doesn't WAW view time as her enemy?

Thoughts?
Posted By: Gypsy Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/22/09 01:13 PM
Hey Smiley Person..

"I know that time is my friend. Why doesn't WAW view time as her enemy?"

I dunno.. maybe because everything else is "too much". Maybe that's where she's comfortable.

Folks end up in LimboLand because the alternative is far too scary for one party or the other. Goodness knows I had to be catapulted out a circus cannon over the decayed carcass of my marriage to finally get to Divorceland.

She's thinking in ways she never imagined. Which is a good thing. It's always easier to 'fix' the other person than yourself. And imagine the shock finding it's her own face looking back in the mirror of what is truly worthwhile in life.

I don't think you're DBing anymore. It's more like Yin Yang Wa, The Art of War equivalent for relationships.

*hugs*
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/22/09 01:24 PM
SP,

I really don't think it's all that complicated. She's confused and having second (and third, and fourth, and . . . ) thoughts, and has shown this to you repeatedly, and all she gets from you is this sorta sick "well, too bad, toots" game.

"Twist the knife a little?" Look, I COMPLETELY understand the power rush you're getting from having the tables turned on her, but I don't think it's going to be productive to your future relationship with her, in whatever role it takes. Either you're still DBing and trying to save your marriage, in which case you're blowing all of the openings, or you're moving on, in which case you might as well just take the high road and stop torturing her this way.

Just my opinion. I do agree in general that "Limbo Sucks," and could see why you wouldn't want to drag this out.

Puppy
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/22/09 01:38 PM
It's not a power rush. It is, a bit, of revenge. But I think I have a fairly fine-tuned sense of just how far I can push because she keeps coming back for more.

In a broader sense, though, we've got to come to grips with this recurring question -- come here or go away?

You yourself have, up and down the threads (not least in mine), advocated Tough Love and Hard Lines and rejected "saving" or "rescuing" or other behaviors that don't compel WAS to own it. Yet in the next breath you appear to advocate Not Tough Love and Not Hard Lines. Rules -- even rules-of-thumb -- are only useful when they are consistent.

As to the specifics, this wasn't from my perspective an "opening" -- not at the end of a day (Father's Day) when she'd spent 4 hours moving stuff to her new house and drawing up lists of goods to be packed for the movers on Friday morning.

And she IS confused and, if you go back to pages 39-41 (and whatever happened to locking thread, btw??), you'll see that this ISN'T all she gets. Yet when she WASN'T getting a "power play," you were sitting your Arabian charger, tilting at the "rescuing" windmill.

From my POV, I do myself no good by enabling AVOIDANCE behavior. I'm happy to lend a hand in COPING. I'm happy to do what I can to be flexible on the kids and what-not. If she can't pick up on "her" day because she's stuck at work, no biggie (assuming it doesn't impinge on plans I might have). I'm happy to have Friendiness and support her in her quest and encourage her new work and business ideas, and encourage her to open up and share and cry, and to not be judgmental. But I won't help her weasel out of the price to be paid.

But what I'm not going to do is play the game her way to enable her to avoid dealing with the reality. She knows that I don't want a divorce, she knows that I think working the problem is better -- even if it does in fact end in D. But I'm not going to keep reminding her of that.

Dangerous? Perhaps. But her confusion and pain are increasingly my allies. The "fuller" her new house gets, the more real it becomes, and the less appealing it is.

Since Big Midwestern City, which was the last time we had a big fight, and which was the start of my new m.o., let's review:

*She's walking-back all her complaints about me in the M

*She's walking-back her desires

*She's telling the story of M "my" way and not hers

*She's totally severed all contact with Signore Schmuckatelli, confessed it, and rejected it

*She's (mostly) stopped arguing about the money

*She's more physical -- very small acts of touch, to be sure, but acts of touch nonetheless

*She's open to acts of service in a way she wasn't even 2 months ago and now even requests some (per DB Coach Jody, an important step)

*She's openly and admittedly jealous of my "new women" -- who aren't really "new" and aren't really "women" in that sense, but Mystery is my friend -- despite having said after Bomb in an e-mail that I "should get out there," and that "it would be great" if I found "someone to take [my] mind off" my sadness, and "it's not cheating because we are so done."

*She's now advocating "go slow" and "what's the rush" having initially promoted the "it's done" and "let's just tear the bandage off" approach.

So I'm not sure openings are being squandered here.
Posted By: Coach Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/22/09 01:57 PM
Quote:
In general, WAW is not "that kind" of a person -- what's the word I'm looking for? Sentimental. She doesn't get attached to things. No one in her family does. In many respects they're very 1950s, Cheever, cold-WASPy people. They form limited attachments to people and far fewer to things. I, on the other hand, still have stuff from kindergarten.



Quote:
I'm not sure what to make of this seeming urge to stall and delay. I know that time is my friend. Why doesn't WAW view time as her enemy?




Connect the dots my dear Watson.

Revenge is a negative emotion be careful using that as your tool. It's normal and going to surface just be aware.


Cheers
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/22/09 02:30 PM
OK then. Just giving you my opinion.

There is nothing inconsistent in advocating a tough stance in GENERAL, yet recommending softening when appropriate. Whether you're an NFL head football coach or a guy trying to DB, it's always easier to go from being the hard-ass who then "grows/softens in the position" towards his players, than the other way around. Tom Coughlin (NY Giants) would be a successful example of the former; my Jaguars' Jack del Rio an example of the folly of the latter.

Puppy
Posted By: Kalni Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/22/09 02:49 PM
Smiley, I agree with Puppy. When they do have second thoughts, they need encourgament that "this", the M, can work. They have by no means yet decided. But the seed is planted and that is the first significant indication your "non Dbing is working".

My H ASKED ME back saying "IF the soil is fertile I want us to get back together", he never said " I want us to get back toegther and I will fight against all odds to do it", because he just couldnt say that. When faced with the difficulties of the reconciliation and the reality of the hard choices he had to make, (because I didnt give in) he backed off. He had SAID/ADMITTED he wanted back, HUGE step had been made and still his actions were hesitant and very much dependent on mine (to be honest this is where me and him f@cked up).
BTW, he too was stalling divorce proceedings AFTER he had moved out for 14 months. He used the exact same words "why are you in such a hurry?" and couldnt explain why he wasnt when I asked.

So, if she does show with actions that her determination is not as rigid as it was, and you still are willing to give it another try, be smart and not angry about it. Your "power" can be channeled to positive actions and not to "slightly vindictive" actions/words. Think about it.

And I agree with Puppy, tough love can be "practised" together with a softer approach when required.
K
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Power Shift - 06/22/09 08:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Hi FB2,

As the LBS and the primary wage earner, I feel and struggle with exactly the same anger that you were feeling when you wrote. My W is not being very aggressive in her walking away, but her opinions and beliefs about what a "fair" separation / divorce would be are frightening and make me angry.

...

This leaves the WAW with a house, salary to support her without having to work, unlimited time to spend with her kids, and someone to watch the kids for her on the weekends when she want's to go out with her new love life.

This leaves the LBS living and starting over, forced to work hard and live on half of his income, panicked of the prospects of layoffs, etc which could reduce his income, and only able to see his kids on the weekends or otherwise at the whim of WAW.

This is the panic, worst case scenario that FB2 was describing. I also understand his anger at the courts, because in defending the W's ability to leave a controlling or abusive M, they seem to set up the ability of a WAW to walk away with all the benefits and leave the LBH carrying the burden - in effect punishing the LBH when it is the WAW who refused to stay.



Thinker/FB2,

This is so true in my sitch, too; and, unfortunately, in my sitch, it'll be the next target for me...

Smiley,

Can you hum a few more bars on this one? We all know that you are a master at certain forms of DB-Compartmentalization, but I'm not following why -- conceptually, emotionally, psychologically -- divorce is the opposite of DB'ing and only about the $?

Quote:
@fb2 and @Thinker -- I get that your sitch's are different. But (as WAW has been all-too-ready to point out) "divorce" is only about the money; divorce -- conceptually, emotionally, psychologically -- is about the flip-side of divorce-busting: You, your mental wherewithal, etc. So it has been useful for me to not confound the one with the other -- to firewall off the juridical from the emotional. Lawyers are for the former; this board is (among other things) for the latter (for me, anyway).


It's hard in FB2's, Thinker's and my shoes to have faith that the courts will do the right thing by us, too, because they are set up as Thinker says. That can't help but seep into the DB equation when it gives the WAS so much more power in the present. If one of the goals is to shift the power as you have been able to do, it makes the hurdle that much higher which, doesn't it?

-AlexEN
Posted By: Thinker Re: Power Shift - 06/22/09 09:09 PM
AlexEN,

I just posted an update on my sitch after talking to an L.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1787437#Post1787437

Basically, if the info that the L gave me is accurate, and the WAS is dedicated to his or her lifestyle and his or her kids (as mine is to both), then the power equation is flipped around somewhat. I am not feeling any Schadenfreude, but if she want's to leave and I hold to my legal rights based on our family and financial situation then I can survive almost intact, but the results would definitely not meet my W's expectations.

As I said, I don't want any of this, and I also don't plan on rubbing her face in it, but is comforting to know that if the process starts, it's not all roses for the WAS and pain for the LBS.
Posted By: fb2 Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:57 AM
I think all you guys have the dynamic nailed down now - filing the D is big power play - the trump card. It is a crude "brute force" technique, not an act of love. Many of these WAS have waited for the conditions to be "ripe" before playing that card. You, SP are calling her bluff, poker faced and she is hesitating and prefers Limboland because the money imbalance and the daunting prospect of finding an 'OM' do indeed have an emotional effect. If you were the 'provider' or she has on OM you will hurt. But also listen to K - the best advice is from those who realize their mistakes. And many salutes to @coach and @Jody for superior Dbing technique.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 02:11 AM
Hi FB,

Do you have a thread somewhere? Just wondering about your sitch.
Posted By: Greek Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 02:53 AM
Originally Posted By: fb2
And many salutes to @coach and @Jody for superior Dbing technique.


"technique"

Boy, I hate this terminology.

It caused a lot of discord initially in the Coach household.

Reminds me of the other 't' word...trickery.

Y'all...it's not "technique". It is learning what you missed about the person to whom you tied your future.

Beeeeeeeee careful. Some of you are here b/c you didn't SEE him/her. Don't make the same mistake by just finding another way to NOT see but passing it off as if you do.

Ahem.
Cheers ~~~
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 03:00 AM
Greek,

If you have a chance, can you stop in at my thread?

Would love to hear your take on e-mail I've drafted to WAW...

Thanks,

AlexEN
Posted By: Forrest Gump Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 03:24 AM
SP...

I have a question. It is a simple one.

What do you think about all the "thought's" coming at you from "here" (Db.com)?
Posted By: Greek Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 03:30 AM
Originally Posted By: Forrest Gump
SP...

I have a question. It is a simple one.




That ain't simple.

...what????

Cheers ~~~~
Posted By: Forrest Gump Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 03:32 AM
"That ain't simple."

I will assure you it is.. Simple.
Posted By: Bridgestone Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 03:44 AM
Originally Posted By: Greek
Some of you are here b/c you didn't SEE him/her. Don't make the same mistake by just finding another way to NOT see but passing it off as if you do.




here, here!!
Posted By: Greek Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 03:45 AM
Quote:
What do you think about all the "thought's" coming at you from "here" (Db.com)?


Coach wants to know (forgot his password pixie dust) if you are really riding your unicorn? laugh cool smile grin

He gets ya!
Posted By: Forrest Gump Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 03:51 AM
OICWHATUDIDTHERE.
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 03:57 AM
Originally Posted By: Bridgestone
Originally Posted By: Greek
Some of you are here b/c you didn't SEE him/her. Don't make the same mistake by just finding another way to NOT see but passing it off as if you do.


here, here!!


Bridge,

What if we are here b/c we admittedly didn't see him/her, want(ed) to find another way TO see, but realize that WE were too late and he/she no longer wants to be seen by us?

-AlexEN
Posted By: Bridgestone Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 04:26 AM
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Originally Posted By: Bridgestone
Originally Posted By: Greek
Some of you are here b/c you didn't SEE him/her. Don't make the same mistake by just finding another way to NOT see but passing it off as if you do.


here, here!!


Bridge,

What if we are here b/c we admittedly didn't see him/her, want(ed) to find another way TO see, but realize that WE were too late and he/she no longer wants to be seen by us?

-AlexEN


Oh since you put it that way, then by all means.. force yourself on them when they no longer want it.. that is very desirable to a WAS.

It's their choice whether to share the 'new' them with the 'new' you.. just as it would be any 'new' woman in your life.

You don't have to like it, to accept it... it's their choice to not 'be' with the new you.

Would you be here bemoaning & "learning to technique" a woman turning you down after a date or two b/c she didn't trust/get/connect with you?

Why do you do it because your STBX-wife has made that choice?

If love is a choice & she has made it.. why do you argue with her? All that does is just proves her point... that you invalidate what she chooses, her choices don't matter to you and she is irrelevent... you make it all about you when you do that.

As Coach says, make the road back to you as smooth as possible.. arguing with her about her choices, is not doing that.

Peace
Bridge
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 04:42 AM
Bridge,

Where in what I asked you did I ever suggest forcing myself on anyone or "techniquing". I've never even suggested arguing with her...

Your wrath is misplaced. Or you have me mixed up with someone else.

I suggested nothing akin to what you took from the question.

-AlexEN
Posted By: fb2 Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 08:36 AM
Originally Posted By: Greek
Originally Posted By: fb2
And many salutes to @coach and @Jody for superior Dbing technique.


"technique"

Boy, I hate this terminology.

It caused a lot of discord initially in the Coach household.

Reminds me of the other 't' word...trickery.

Y'all...it's not "technique". It is learning what you missed about the person to whom you tied your future.

Beeeeeeeee careful. Some of you are here b/c you didn't SEE him/her. Don't make the same mistake by just finding another way to NOT see but passing it off as if you do.

Ahem.
Cheers ~~~



Seeing or trickery Coach did something right!
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 11:01 AM
@Gypsy wrote: "Folks end up in LimboLand because the alternative is far too scary for one party or the other."

That's pretty smart stuff right there.

I think that hits the old nail on the head, as a matter of fact. Last night I was talking to S about his regular goofing off behavior at bed time, and WAW kept coming in to his room demanding to know "what - is - going - ON?"

Finally I turned, looked her in the eyes, and said, "I am speaking to my son, thank you!" pretty sharply, and she retreated to the master bed.

I went downstairs to the guest room, settled in to bed, and about 5 minutes later heard her get in her car and drive off. She's spending the night in her new house. Literal LimboLand -- no fridge, no bed even.

But the alternative -- confronting the fact that I'm raising MY son in MY house -- too difficult to cope with perhaps.

Her aggregate level of outwardly manifested stress and sadness increases each day. Her movers will be here in 76 hours. I don't envy her what that must feel like one bit.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 11:34 AM
@Kalni wrote "When they do have second thoughts, they need encouragement that "this", the M, can work."

That sounds about right to me. And when WAW emailed me last week (?) that after she moves out she wants us to spend time together and "get to know each other again," I said that I had no objections to that. Between you and me and the firewall, it sounded wishy-washy and my initial reaction was to dismiss it as WAScript, but I thought about it and understood it (correctly, I think) as an opening, as a peace offering, and replied favorably.

So I hear you, for sure. By the same token, I've been thinking wink like our colleague does, and the @Coach-Greek example to the contrary notwithstanding, I wonder about this notion -- "'this,' the M, can work." It seems clear to me that "this" isn't the same "this" that it was pre-Bomb. So how can one assume the new "this" will work? It seems to me that new rules would have to be negotiated, new understandings reached, etc. Now this is more-or-less the same thing one does in any "new" relationship, so it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

But one thing that has been percolating in my mind of late is the growing awareness that -- as Puppy has pointed out elsewhere -- one can take on "too much" responsibility for the Bomb and D. The focus on GAL, 180, active listening, etc., is all to the good, don't get me wrong, and has done me a world of good to boot.

But as the power has shifted in my sitch, I sort of woke up with a 2x4 to the head: "Hey dude -- it, ummm, wasn't all you. There were 2 people in this marriage." WAW's attitude towards me in the context of the D has certainly evolved (right word?) as I noted to Puppy above. But it has evolved (regressed?) to her "normal" M behavior towards me: pushy and critical combined with a dollop of thin-skinned and defensive. She doesn't actively listen. I have to be constantly mindful of using the phrases "my point of view" and "my perspective."

She has this persona she adopts/uses with her friends and co-workers: clever, witty, quick-with-the-quip (stolen from me as often as not!), sassy -- think Myrna Loy in "The Thin Man." Lately she's chuckled about this or that and said, "That reminds me of X." When I look at her as if to say, "What's X?" she'll say, "Oh, didn't I send you that article / clip / link?" And of course the answer is, "No."

But at home, with me, none of that. I didn't discourage it, I didn't tell her to stop it, I didn't ignore her when she would tell me things -- she just had a Marriage Her and a Not-Marriage Her. Then she had a Divorce Her.

Now the Divorce Her has been subordinated, and the M / ~M Hers are back -- and in their familiar ordering. So let's play with a little thought experiment:

Assume that some kind of detente (cf, @Gypsy and the Art of War) is reached after Friday. Assume that some kind of tentative moves "back" (or, more accurately for me I think, towards some other place) are undertaken. At what point does one / ought one / could one expect to see Former WAS undertaking the kind of rigorous self-evaluation and reflection that Former LBS does during the divorce-busting process? That seems, at a minimum, only to be fair to me: sauce for the gander, sauce for the goose. (This assumes -- perhaps wrongly / unfairly -- that Former WAS has not been undergoing some kind of process during the separation, etc., I admit.) Because otherwise this would seem to have the effect simply of shifting the power back to the Former WAS -- gosh I'm glad you came home because all the problems were me.

But that can't be right. Can it?
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 11:38 AM
@Forrest Gump wrote: "What do you think about all the "thought's" coming at you from "here" (Db.com)?"

I need clarification -- and I'm not being deliberately obtuse here.

"thought's" -- 1) why is it in quotes -- are these not thoughts? Or are these "thoughts" in the guise of something else you're referring to? 2) why the possessive apostrophe -- thought's what?

"here" -- same question -- why the quotes? Does "here" refer to somewhere else?
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 11:45 AM
Quote:
Bridge, Where in what I asked you did I ever suggest forcing myself on anyone or "techniquing". I've never even suggested arguing with her... Your wrath is misplaced.


Yeah, I'm going to have to rise to the defense of my esteemed colleague AlexEN here -- when I read those posts in order I got those ah-ooga eyes from the Tex Avery cartoons. The response clearly did not follow from the query. No active listening? *Ahem.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 11:55 AM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
@Forrest Gump wrote: "What do you think about all the "thought's" coming at you from "here" (Db.com)?"

I need clarification -- and I'm not being deliberately obtuse here.

"thought's" -- 1) why is it in quotes -- are these not thoughts? Or are these "thoughts" in the guise of something else you're referring to? 2) why the possessive apostrophe -- thought's what?

"here" -- same question -- why the quotes? Does "here" refer to somewhere else?


SP, I think FG does that for emphasis -- like italics. He does it a lot in his posts.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:05 PM
@Greek cautioned: "it's not 'technique'. It is learning what you missed about the person to whom you tied your future."

I suspect most everyone "gets" that, but that the word "technique" was used as a place-holder for "way" or "method" or "approach." But your basic point is spot-on -- it has to be authentic.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:07 PM
I was talking to an old college friend yesterday, herself divorced (in a much worse divorce than mine), and she suggested that one challenge the WAS might face when confronting a productive DB'er is that "as if" and moving forward defies the WAS's expectations and puts the onus of The Work on her/him. In other words, the WAS needs the LBS to be a wreck, because Wreck Behavior has the nice effect of being a distraction AND a source of continual rationalization for the WAS ("Gosh I'm glad to be getting rid of that"). Thoughts?
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:09 PM
PDT -- alles klar.

@Forrest Gump: If Puppy is correct and that was merely a straight question with emphasis, the answer is -- if I might borrow a word from you -- "simple": Invaluable.

Why? What do you think of them?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:15 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I was talking to an old college friend yesterday, herself divorced (in a much worse divorce than mine), and she suggested that one challenge the WAS might face when confronting a productive DB'er is that "as if" and moving forward defies the WAS's expectations and puts the onus of The Work on her/him. In other words, the WAS needs the LBS to be a wreck, because Wreck Behavior has the nice effect of being a distraction AND a source of continual rationalization for the WAS ("Gosh I'm glad to be getting rid of that"). Thoughts?


I think your old college friend is pretty wise. cool
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:16 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson


Why? What do you think of them?


Oh SP, you really don't know our friend Forrest very well at all, do you . . . smirk
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:28 PM
Quote:
I think your old college friend is pretty wise. cool


Yes, I think so, too. It was funny in a way: OCF said, "Man, I want to be on your side, but your attitude and behavior towards WAW is making me empathize with her. If my ex had done what you're doing, I don't know what I would have done!"

This, I think, is what I meant when I used the poorly chosen word, "revenge" (cf @Gypsy), and it's what I mean when I talk about Paradigm Shift --> Power Shift. And, not incidentally, I think it gets to the crux of the discussion you and I and @Thinker were having a few pages back over what constitutes "rescuing" vice just being open and supportive when requested/required.

It's "revengy" (or "Schadenfreudy") to see the burden shifted back to WAS. For me, this has been one of the truly great things about the MWD books, this board (cf, @Forrest Gump), and the other books recommended here there and everywhere (N.U.T.S., Codependent, etc. etc.).

On the one hand, I dislike the kind-of zero-sum sense of happiness the paragraph I just wrote implies -- if I'm happy Herself has to be unhappy -- but on the other I definitely like the fact that, by getting myself squared away and moving forward -- by Rolling My Way -- WAW must confront head-on her own feelings, fears, and the like.

Since the Bomb made me do that, it seems only fair to me that My Walk since the Bomb return the favor.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:37 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson


Since the Bomb made me do that, it seems only fair to me that My Walk since the Bomb return the favor.


And I agree with you, if your goal is to end the marriage.

If you're still DBing, then I thought you were missing openings and opportunities, and I still do.

See, here's the rub (and I've been noodling starting a whole thread on this, because I think it goes right to the core of the challenge of DBing):

To sufficiently detach in order to get yourself to a place emotionally where a divorce isn't going to just DEVASTATE you, I think you have to get to a place emotionally where you may not be vulnerable enough to still save your marriage.

Does that make sense? In other words, I think LBSs do this "one foot on the platform, the other foot on the train" thing as a defense mechanism, and in so doing, we hurt our chances to save the marriage. One might even argue that the ONLY way to save the marriage is to make a Leap of Faith into the mosh pit that is the troubled marriage, and hope your WAS catches you (and/or God sustains you). But if you DO that, and it's not successful (and it's also a given DB maxim that we CAN'T control it), then your heart will be WAY more hurt when she says "I still want a divorce."

I guess that's where the RISK lies, huh?

Puppy
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:40 PM
Quote:
I think you have to get to a place emotionally where you may not be vulnerable enough to still save your marriage


??

Clarification?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:43 PM
On the old SSM board, we used to call it a state of "don'tgiveashitness."
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:49 PM
I guess what I'm looking for is clarification of what that sentence implies -- to save the marriage one has to remain vulnerable to some degree. Is that the basic argument?

Which, if it is, could imply DB'ing "too much"?
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:54 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I guess what I'm looking for is clarification of what that sentence implies -- to save the marriage one has to remain vulnerable to some degree. Is that the basic argument?



Yes. And I'm asking whether the degree to which you need to detach in order to "be okay with divorce" hinders your ability to be sufficiently vulnerable in order to save the marriage.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:56 PM
AhhhhhhhH! No light bulb icon, but "bink!" Got it.

Very good Q. Have to brood upon it for a bit.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 12:58 PM
yeah, I think it could stimulate some great discussion.

I have tended to see more success from the "willing to jump into the mosh pit" crowd than the "one foot on the platform" folks (of which I am a card-carrying member in good standing), so there's a reason I'm asking.
Posted By: Kalni Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 01:04 PM
Hey, Good Morning!!

Your long post at the beginning hits home with me so much. Well, in my case, H said he had done a lot of work and looked inside and knew where he went wrong (when he left I WAS THE ONLY ONE making mistakes, progress there smile ) and bla bla bla but after 8 months, I can tell you he has no idea what kind of work is involved to get passed this "phase" of our M (if we survive that is). He ignores basic principles I did too but I dont anymore about relationships. An example, I read and read and still read. He never read anything that could be of use to him/us. He ignores my LL, how can I feel loved when he continues to love me the way HE wants to be loved? Sure enough, I dont. But again, I remind myself he does what he knows, trying to hold on. I recognise his good intention.I DO the work again. Fair? I dont think so. Necessary? If I want this, then yes...

So, to asnwer your question according to MY experience I will tell you that sadly the LBS needs to continue with the work and make changes happen sometimes only with the silent agreement of the WAS. Why? Because they didnt go thru the same level of PAIN and that pain is what made us all look deep inside. This is why I told fb2, that I cant relate to Coach and Greek very much because they BOTH showed/show the same level of maturity and committement with ACTIONS AFTER the "break" in their marriage. Which I think is very rare. Very few WAS, come back ready to do what needs to be done, consciously trying to break old habbits and "make up" if I dare use that word.

"This"? Well, THIS is limited to the 2 same people creating it. Because "this" -the dead marriage- I agree with you is over and history. IMO, nothing can bring the old relationship back to life and in my case I wouldnt want that. It's like an earthquake shuttering a town. The town is rebuilt, but not as it was. The foundations are built stronger, experts make studies, learn from past mistakes and there are changes. Old-crappy buildings are not restored, they are completely taken down because the earthquake gave "an opportunity" to get rid off them, new ones are built WITH THE KNOWLEDGE that an earthquake MAY happen again but at least now "people" can do whatever it takes to avoid the "fatal consequences". (Hmm that was pretty scary to try and express it in English, hope it makes sense, LOL...)

But, now YOU get to evaluate if you want to move to another town or stay here because you like it. You didnt want the earthquake to happen, it happened, but you sure are responsible for the weak foundation your house was built on.

Responsibility. I no longer feel resposnible for the 100% of why my M went this way. To be honest, I feel that my responsibility is less than 50% and that IS dangerous, I know. But that is the way I feel. And I do own my mistakes, trust me, but he needs to own his. Without "ownership" of the mistakes, you wont "fix" anything. It will always be someone else's job to do it. aND IF I do try to fix his, then I know we would be heading for a fall, again. It will NOT work that way.

God this is so difficult to explain!!! Please forgive me for spelling, grammar, wrong choices of words and try to fill in the blanks to understand what I am trying to say.

I would make sure if I were you, (I was, still am in many ways) I want this woman in my life. Keen NOT Dbing because it is healthy for you and the kids (not to mention it seems to be working). I sincerely think the separation is not bad for you guys, again according to my experience, and ...soften up a little wink .

Just my 2 euro cents which is about 5 of your cents anyway... lol
K

PS I went to the point to where I almost wasnt vulnerable anymore. And it took a lot of tears and much harder work to get me back to where I wanted to give it a try to save my M again (well, maybe I do, not sure anymore, what day is it? LOL!!) I once said that when I was trying to decide it felt VERY similar to the bomb era. Dont go there, yet!! Please, trust me on this...
Posted By: Thinker Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 01:28 PM
Wow, this is a great discussion. I keep struggling with this myself. I have also hardened myself and backed off to the point where I don't get hurt (that much) any more.

I keep looking at my W and seeing the pain she is in, the lost weight, the fact that she can't sleep at night, etc. and wondering to myself "What Now?"
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 01:45 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson

But as the power has shifted in my sitch, I sort of woke up with a 2x4 to the head: "Hey dude -- it, ummm, wasn't all you. There were 2 people in this marriage." WAW's attitude towards me in the context of the D has certainly evolved (right word?) as I noted to Puppy above. But it has evolved (regressed?) to her "normal" M behavior towards me: pushy and critical combined with a dollop of thin-skinned and defensive. She doesn't actively listen. I have to be constantly mindful of using the phrases "my point of view" and "my perspective."

She has this persona she adopts/uses with her friends and co-workers: clever, witty, quick-with-the-quip (stolen from me as often as not!), sassy -- think Myrna Loy in "The Thin Man." Lately she's chuckled about this or that and said, "That reminds me of X." When I look at her as if to say, "What's X?" she'll say, "Oh, didn't I send you that article / clip / link?" And of course the answer is, "No."

But at home, with me, none of that. I didn't discourage it, I didn't tell her to stop it, I didn't ignore her when she would tell me things -- she just had a Marriage Her and a Not-Marriage Her. Then she had a Divorce Her.

Now the Divorce Her has been subordinated, and the M / ~M Hers are back -- and in their familiar ordering. So let's play with a little thought experiment:

Assume that some kind of detente (cf, @Gypsy and the Art of War) is reached after Friday. Assume that some kind of tentative moves "back" (or, more accurately for me I think, towards some other place) are undertaken. At what point does one / ought one / could one expect to see Former WAS undertaking the kind of rigorous self-evaluation and reflection that Former LBS does during the divorce-busting process? That seems, at a minimum, only to be fair to me: sauce for the gander, sauce for the goose. (This assumes -- perhaps wrongly / unfairly -- that Former WAS has not been undergoing some kind of process during the separation, etc., I admit.) Because otherwise this would seem to have the effect simply of shifting the power back to the Former WAS -- gosh I'm glad you came home because all the problems were me.

But that can't be right. Can it?


Wow SP! Right on the money with some of my thoughts recently...

- What if we stay M'd and W doesn't Change?

- What if she never works on her own issues? I'd be miserable in our old M.

- Why are there multiple Mrs Thinkers - one with her friends and another with me?

Posted By: Coach Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 02:01 PM
Quote:
- What if she never works on her own issues? I'd be miserable in our old M.


You can't go back to the old marriage. Both of you need to be one the same page for a reconciliation. Greek told me she was "all in." She started reading a lot of the books I read and started reading here once she got over the initial shock.

Quote:
Why are there multiple Mrs Thinkers - one with her friends and another with me?


Are you really her friend right now? She is protecting herself and testing your changes. You are being watched.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 02:01 PM
@Kalni wrote:
Quote:
Just my 2 euro cents which is about 5 of your cents anyway... lol


Love it! Not to worry about expressing it in English -- heck, I barely speak the language myself. You do fine, and your thoughts come through loud and clear.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 03:17 PM
So I hear you, for sure. By the same token, I've been thinking wink like our colleague does, and the @Coach-Greek example to the contrary notwithstanding, I wonder about this notion -- "'this,' the M, can work." It seems clear to me that "this" isn't the same "this" that it was pre-Bomb. So how can one assume the new "this" will work? It seems to me that new rules would have to be negotiated, new understandings reached, etc. Now this is more-or-less the same thing one does in any "new" relationship, so it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

I dont disagree with you but I do feel that when a totally new R happens (i.e. one that is not with your W) the "new rules" of a new R seem to happen in a more organic and natural fashion. IMO (or at least in my experience with my H) that is where the WAS finds it to be too much work because they have not done the work. And in the case of my H who has had a GF for a 1.5 years now, why do the work with your W when you get all the fun with a new person? His experience of his affair and GF really seemed to cement in his mind that R's should not be work. And for nwo his new R is no work. His new R is void of all "real life" things such as bills, planning for the future, family dynamics and all the big life decisions and plans a married couple must make and work through.

Its not a terribly natural feeling to have "guidelines" or "rules" so to speak with a spouse you have been married to for xx years. Especially when the LBS tends to be much further along in the "working on the R and themselves" process than the WAS is.

I also know in my H's case he will not allow himself to fail again. That simply is his nature (not just in R's but his life outlook in general). So I think there are many variables the WAS considers that arent that pressing to the LBS.

But as the power has shifted in my sitch, I sort of woke up with a 2x4 to the head: "Hey dude -- it, ummm, wasn't all you. There were 2 people in this marriage." WAW's attitude towards me in the context of the D has certainly evolved (right word?) as I noted to Puppy above. But it has evolved (regressed?) to her "normal" M behavior towards me: pushy and critical combined with a dollop of thin-skinned and defensive. She doesn't actively listen. I have to be constantly mindful of using the phrases "my point of view" and "my perspective."

That isnt at all surprising to me. The WAS is unsure how to process this all because all of a sudden the LBS isnt a sobbing mess. It becomes clear to the WAS that the LBS will not only be just fine but maybe better. In order to cope, it is my opinion the WAS must revert back and work extra hard to try and change the dynamic back to the old unhealthy one so they can operate in the forum (unhealthy) in which they are comfortable. That is the exact reason I have trained myself to have ZERO reaction to my H and what he says or does. He expects me to have some sort of emotional reaction which would only allow him to justify his decison to leave the marriage and continue his affair. I am always polite, kind and cordial but I give him nothing more or nothing less. Any emotions I have to deal with that are painful or upsetting to me I deal with on my own or with my C.

I have also found that when anything positive happens between the WAS and the LBS the WAS tends to retreat back to their old ways - again, in an attempt to bring the R back to its old, unhealthy state.

I think, across the board no matter what the particulars of the situation are, there is always some sort of power struggle between the WAS and the LBS. And I dont mean from a legal sense. Some of us never find that balance and some of us do. I can imagine its far more difficult when children are invovled so I cant comment on that aspect. But as far as two spouses are concerned I do believe a very deep power struggle exists. As they say, the one that cares least about the R is the one that controls it. And I dont mean they dont care as if they dont give a sh*t about you or your well being as a person but as a spouse, the WAS needs that power/control in order to forge ahead with their plan. They can forge ahead all they like and rarely think of all the ramifications and consequences but in most cases despite what the LBS may do, their mind is made up.

A WAS doesnt like to be wrong and in order for them not to be wrong I think they carry huge amounts of guilt. While this may sound cold that is their issue to own, process and work through and sadly, most WAS simply do not.

After 1.5 years of separation w/a 3rd party involved my WAS still follows the script to a "T". He is really just a collection of cells that is so consumed with cliches and BS and justifications I just dont let it get to me anymore. Well, once in a while it does but not nearly as often as it used to.

My H LOVES to tell me how happy he is. Well, GREAT! I tend to think that people who have to brag to anybody that will listen how happy they are, well, maybe they are trying to convince themselves. I could be wrong and maybe he is happy. If that is the case then good for him. It is my opinion that you dont have to lie, cheat, steal, manipulate and emotionally abuse somebody to "find happiness" but we are all different.

And maybe in many ways I take a more "manly" stance in this. But I spent close to a year being the wrecked wife who was sick (emotionally and physically) and I am done with that. Forever. If I didnt become tough as nails I would have continued down a path that was nothing short of self destructive. I have flaws and lots to work on but that hardly means I should be treated like dog doo.

The best way to end this power struggle is to simply NOT participate. There were times my tounge was nearly bleeding because I so wanted to say *something* to my H or just lash out but my silence was far more confusing to him.

If you dont want to be in limbo then get the heck out of there. You have that power to leave "the land" or allow your WAS to keep you there. IMO "leaving the land" is best for you and possibly for the fate of your M.

I dont know about you but I am done being jerked around. I had to make that choice for my health but I am glad I did because it was the best thing for my heart/mind. And somebody can only jerk you around if you let them.

This may sound cold. Its not. I wont coddle a WAS any longer though. Its a real kick in the face for the WAS when they realize the LBS will no longer be there for them. Funny how my H is "so happy" with his GF but when it comes to real life things (him needing support, work problems or comfort) I am the first person he calls. So let your W move to her new house and once she realizes that you will only be there in the form of a co-parent, well, things might change (or they might not) but you have to let the WAS experience it all.

I am not jaded to this process. I have been well schooled. At the end of the day I matter to ME. This was not an overnight process, it isnt or anybody. It just seems to me you have so much focus on your W and her actions. You cant control it, you wont figure it out and you may never understand or get the answers you seek. Then what? You sort of stay in square one, no?
Posted By: traveldane Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 03:22 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I was talking to an old college friend yesterday, herself divorced (in a much worse divorce than mine), and she suggested that one challenge the WAS might face when confronting a productive DB'er is that "as if" and moving forward defies the WAS's expectations and puts the onus of The Work on her/him. In other words, the WAS needs the LBS to be a wreck, because Wreck Behavior has the nice effect of being a distraction AND a source of continual rationalization for the WAS ("Gosh I'm glad to be getting rid of that"). Thoughts?


I think your old college friend is pretty wise. cool


So at the end of the day, we can self improve and WAS can see it, awknowlege it, but they themselves might not want to do their own work and own their piece of the relationship.

Maybe they would rather have a blank slate or settle for less or, or, just really so many possibilities not really worth wondering about because, its their choice all the same. More power to them. Though certainly it is a refreshing window for the LBS, lets up some of burden.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 03:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Coach

You can't go back to the old marriage. Both of you need to be one the same page for a reconciliation. Greek told me she was "all in." She started reading a lot of the books I read and started reading here once she got over the initial shock.


So far, Mrs. Thinker has shown absolutely no interest or willingness to do any of this. She is still in the "Blame it all on Thinker and Run away" mode. I am moving ahead as if she is, at some point in time, going to decide to really work hard on herself. One of my fears, however, is that she never will.

Quote:

Are you really her friend right now? She is protecting herself and testing your changes. You are being watched.


I had this discussion with her a couple of days ago. I told her that I could see how much stress she was under and that as her friend I was concerned and worried about her. She replied "Are you my friend? I don't think we are friends."

At the time I was really surprised by this, since from my point of view and from what I feel, she is my friend. I am always surprised when I find out how truly distant she feels.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 03:37 PM
Quote:
But as the power has shifted in my sitch, I sort of woke up with a 2x4 to the head: "Hey dude -- it, ummm, wasn't all you. There were 2 people in this marriage." WAW's attitude towards me in the context of the D has certainly evolved (right word?) as I noted to Puppy above. But it has evolved (regressed?) to her "normal" M behavior towards me: pushy and critical combined with a dollop of thin-skinned and defensive. She doesn't actively listen. I have to be constantly mindful of using the phrases "my point of view" and "my perspective."


Wow, you all have been busy! Great thread.

The above quote is the truth....hallelujah.

I think that in some ways (speaking to the issue of vulnerability and such), this is a matter of the quality of marriage you want with Mrs. SP or next Mrs. SP.

Once, I was willing to settle for just getting my H back (and did that 6 years ago. I am no longer there.

As of now, I am willing to walk into Retrovaille with nearly equal ambivalence that M "can work." I am willing to be convinced that we are a pair that can live with respect and mutual admiration, healthy boundaries, forgiveness, trust and exhibitions of valuing the relationship (reading, growing, etc).

I think that in some ways, it is the couples that really split, really take a good deal of time and space to grow (for real), and then come back together, who proceed to have marriages that I might want.

Again, saving the marriage can't be of as much importance as saving oneself.

Recently, I asked H, following his rattling off a litany of things I had done wrong or not done in the R since we last reconciled, "H, what did you change? What did you do differently?" Kaboom. There wasn't much other than a LOT of therapy that led to temporary changes in behavior that were short-lived. He changed zero, zilch, nada.

So, for the sake of sanity, for the sake of making this all worthwhile, I think you do have to jump off the cliff so to speak and let life, your own and WAS's evolutions reveal whether the new R is a viable prospect.
Posted By: aliveandkicking Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 03:51 PM
By the way, I don't think many of us DBers (of the limbo variety) have even experienced yet the positive growth and change we are capable of. Most of us have just found ourselves gaining a sense of equilibrium...the best is yet to come and the work no where near done.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 03:57 PM
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
By the way, I don't think many of us DBers (of the limbo variety) have even experienced yet the positive growth and change we are capable of. Most of us have just found ourselves gaining a sense of equilibrium...the best is yet to come and the work no where near done.


Agreed! - definitely still need to work on me!
Posted By: Sara Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 04:33 PM
Gotta agree with Pup on his assertion that don'tgiveashitness is harmful to later chance of reconciling.

It's great for the individual to toughen up and GAL and not need the WAS. Essential for his/her mental health in the long run. But there is a delicate balance in staying open to truly caring about the other person. And that is really hard when the other person is hurting you. Still, this is the essence of fb2's bitterness to his wife. He tried. He cared. And what did he get in return? Coldness, don'tgiveashitness. A very ugly thing to get in return for caring.

So if your goal is reconciliation, then building a wall between you is not helpful in the long run.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 04:46 PM
@CityGirl wrote: I do feel that when a totally new R happens (i.e. one that is not with your W) the "new rules" of a new R seem to happen in a more organic and natural fashion. IMO (or at least in my experience with my H) that is where the WAS finds it to be too much work because they have not done the work.

Wow. Hadn't thought of it in those terms. Hmmmmmmmm.

The WAS is unsure how to process this all because all of a sudden the LBS isnt a sobbing mess. It becomes clear to the WAS that the LBS will not only be just fine but maybe better. In order to cope, it is my opinion the WAS must revert back and work extra hard to try and change the dynamic back to the old unhealthy one so they can operate in the forum (unhealthy) in which they are comfortable.


Exactly the point Old College Friend was making. Hmmmmmm. Bayesian updating begins....
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 04:56 PM
A couple very brief convos w/ WAW so far today. Her deciding at the last minute to "move out" last night was a big step for her. (I think, from my POV, in my opinion, etc. etc.)

I've been nothing but cheery on the phone and in my emails today, but she has definitely (re)progressed to her March-April, Full-Bore-WAW manifestation. One-word email responses, monotone "yes?" answers to the phone's ring (when caller i.d. shows SP). "I guess you want me to come back early today and clear out the bedroom for you."

Hey! That would be super! Thanks for offering!

Surely there's some of the dynamic @CityGirl expressed so well (see above) -- I'm just not being "right" in this sitch.

As a tactical matter, I'm going to proceed under the assumption that the next week or so is going to really be a shake-up/shake-down period with WAW making the final jump to light speed. She's likely to be all at Sixes and Sevens, so I'm going to be stealthy.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 05:00 PM
6s and 7s??? confused confused
Posted By: Coach Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 05:04 PM
Make sure you stay busy now, certain days/times will get to you, be self-aware. She is hurting right now so watch your tone and message. Really listen to her beyond the words. She knows she is hurting you and the kids, just because it was her choice doesn't mean you can't show compassion. If you can't muster it up just be still.
Make some changes in the house when she leaves, rearrange furniture, move paintings, lamps etc.
Cheers
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 05:14 PM
Quote:
Make sure you stay busy now...watch your tone and message
...really listen...show compassion. If you can't muster it up just be still...Make some changes in the house.


Wilco.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 05:16 PM
Quote:
6s and 7s??? confused confused


At Sixes and Sevens
Posted By: Bridgestone Re: Power Shift - 06/23/09 05:16 PM
Originally Posted By: AlexEN
Bridge,

Where in what I asked you did I ever suggest forcing myself on anyone or "techniquing". I've never even suggested arguing with her...

Your wrath is misplaced. Or you have me mixed up with someone else.

I suggested nothing akin to what you took from the question.

-AlexEN


My apologies then, I interpreted the 'techniquing' part of the above thread in a much different way than you seem to be... by all means, keep doing what's working in your sitch.
Posted By: CityGirl Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 05:20 PM
I agree about keeping busy and changing the house to make it more "yours". When my H moved out I did a few simple things but it made our place feel more like mine. I purchased new bed linens and arranged the living furniture in a new way. He noticed and commented right away. But I did that for me, not him.

As far as showing compassion I feel that is a given. But I feel it is a given for ALL humans and not just the WAS "humans". I think this is where validation and compassion go hand in hand.

My H sent me an e-mail last week saying he really missed talking to me. I have compassion for that feeling because there was a time I missed talking to him so much that it made every inch of my body and heart ache. Do I miss talking to him now? A little but when I look at the big picture and his continued involvement with his GF its just not right for me. However, my disagreement with the choices he has made and continues to make doesnt mean he doesnt deserve compassion. I suppose you just have to decide what degree of compassion you want to offer.

My response to him saying "I really miss talking to you" was, for me, a mix of compassion and validation. I simply said "thanks for sharing... I can relate to all the adjustements a divorce brings". So yes, I can relate to the missing aspect and tried to validate that but I also made it clear his choices do not come consequence free for either of us.

Of course, each situation is different but for me and my situation this approach is best for ME. He did what he thought was best for him and he did so in a very cruel fashion. I wont respond with cruelty but I also wont respond with anything more than compassion (which everybody deserves) and validation.

I think so often the LBS forgets or doesnt realize the WAS *needs* to experience it all. They want to walk away and get a divorce that is fine but it also means walking away means walking away from it ALL. Now maybe it wont be forever but when one does walk away they must be prepared for it to always be that way and so often, IMO, they are not. They felt powerful making such a decision but rarely think past what that power will bring their way. If nothing else it usually means a very, very deep rift or a complete end of a friendship... something my WAS never anticipated.

I learned in C'ing that the "growing pains" of divorce usually arent totally felt by the WAS until the divorce (legally) is over and all the BS associated with divorce is done. Reality is tough for all parties involved. Its just that the LBS has been working and preparing for the realities for some time and the WAS hasnt given much of anything any deep thought. And some couples can meet up somewhere along all these twists and turns and some cant. Nobody can predict the future and really, who would want to? Part of this process is learning and as much pain as it brings, the learning and realizations of what is possible is sort of a fantastic rush.

You go from being busted to 8 zillion other things to thinking... hey, I am okay or on the road to okay. Its a terribly hard journey to make and one that is usually thrust upon us in a shocking fashion. Looking back though how often do any of us get to learn so much about ourselves? Probably not that often.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 05:21 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
Quote:
6s and 7s??? confused confused


At Sixes and Sevens


And now I know something new! smile Thanks.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 05:29 PM
Quote:
They want to walk away and get a divorce that is fine but it also means walking away means walking away from it ALL...They felt powerful making such a decision but rarely think past what that power will bring their way.
True dat! I can count at least a half-dozen occasions in the last month -- really, since I started Rolling -- that I've been gobsmacked by something WAW has said ("Golly I've already spent $12K on the new house -- I didn't think it would cost that much") and could only reply, "Didn't you think about that? You knew you were divorcing me for at least a month and by your own admission had been thinking about it longer than that. It never occurred to you -- you, Ms. GTD-Filofax-DayRunner of 2009 of all people! -- to actually find out what it would entail?"

Quote:
Looking back though how often do any of us get to learn so much about ourselves? Probably not that often.
Was just saying the exact same thing to OCF and FFF the other day. Unreal. On the one hand I've lost 4.5 months of productive time and am being CRUSHED beneath the weight of Things Undone, but on the other I really really really like who I'm becoming. Don't know if the Cost/Benefit lines have crossed yet, but they're converging.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 05:31 PM
@Puppy Dog Tails
Quote:
And now I know something new! smile Thanks.

Legacy of a mis-spent youth. Happy to oblige.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 05:38 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
@CityGirl wrote: I do feel that when a totally new R happens (i.e. one that is not with your W) the "new rules" of a new R seem to happen in a more organic and natural fashion. IMO (or at least in my experience with my H) that is where the WAS finds it to be too much work because they have not done the work.


I have been pondering the same thing. In a completely new R, finding similarities and agreements is fun, easy and exciting. Example of a first date "Wow! You like Chinese food!! Hey, Me Too!! We have SO much in common!!" Now picture the same conversation while trying to build a new R with the WAS. You have already covered all of the light, simple things to talk about and easy ways to find common ground. Now to progress you have either avoid any truly relevant topics, or talk about the difficult, important things that you have avoided talking about in the past. This leaves the WAS feeling either bored or stressed depending on how the conversation goes. Since they are not doing The Work themselves, they run away.
Posted By: Coach Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 05:46 PM
Originally Posted By: Thinker
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
@CityGirl wrote: I do feel that when a totally new R happens (i.e. one that is not with your W) the "new rules" of a new R seem to happen in a more organic and natural fashion. IMO (or at least in my experience with my H) that is where the WAS finds it to be too much work because they have not done the work.


I have been pondering the same thing. In a completely new R, finding similarities and agreements is fun, easy and exciting. Example of a first date "Wow! You like Chinese food!! Hey, Me Too!! We have SO much in common!!" Now picture the same conversation while trying to build a new R with the WAS. You have already covered all of the light, simple things to talk about and easy ways to find common ground. Now to progress you have either avoid any truly relevant topics, or talk about the difficult, important things that you have avoided talking about in the past. This leaves the WAS feeling either bored or stressed depending on how the conversation goes. Since they are not doing The Work themselves, they run away.


You are not there yet. It can happen and the truly relevant topics get discussed and worked on. For us it happend at a truly remarkable speed complete with speed bumps but hey I can handle it. I think it is important that you show your spouse how to do the work (lead). That is truly a loving and marvelous gift to give anyone. Plus it shows you taking care of yourself, which I am told is very sexy. Stay patient you are doing great.
Cheers
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 06:11 PM
Yep, everyone has been busy and I’m coming to this party late…

But, before I start, @Puppy, you are SO right, we need a popcorn eating emoticon… Reading your back and forth with @SP was DB entertaining at its best…

The mental imagery was even better as I tried to put a clock on the exchange… Had to be 4:30-5:00 a.m. Smiley Time and 7:30-8:00 a.m. Puppy Time…

So, I get the split-screen visual in my head of Smiley sitting there in his DB Kung Fu jams, unshaven and still slightly disheveled, making coffee in the dark, moving around quietly so as not to wake the kids, and just getting his day going… On the right (pun intended) side of the screen, I see Puppy already spiffed-up, sitting at his desk with DB-themed tunes already cranking as a backdrop, and the bright Florida sun shining through his window…

And, then they log-on simultaneously and post their DB thoughts… and the ping-pong begins with concepts all too cogent given the early hour… even in Florida…

[Poll question: Does spending too much time on these boards constitute GALing or not?]

Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson
I guess what I'm looking for is clarification of what that sentence implies -- to save the marriage one has to remain vulnerable to some degree. Is that the basic argument?


Yes. And I'm asking whether the degree to which you need to detach in order to "be okay with divorce" hinders your ability to be sufficiently vulnerable in order to save the marriage.


Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
yeah, I think it could stimulate some great discussion.

I have tended to see more success from the "willing to jump into the mosh pit" crowd than the "one foot on the platform" folks (of which I am a card-carrying member in good standing), so there's a reason I'm asking.


As I’m read this I’m wondered why dontgiveashitness and vulnerability have to be mutually exclusive? Or why it really has to be a zero-sum game?

I think two different concepts are, ahem, becoming enmeshed here… Why can’t the LBS fully detach and still be vulnerable enough to save the marriage if that opportunity ever presents itself?

To me, this is where my interpretation of “being dead already” comes in… If you replace “be okay with divorce” or “dontgiveashitness” with “accepting divorce” or “acceptance”, you don’t have to give up vulnerability, do you? In which case, the vulnerability – a precursor to saving the marriage or the next R – doesn’t have to be subsumed.

I hope not, because, for me one of the things I got back in the course of my DBing was the ability to feel again (to be vulnerable). I sure as $hit ain’t gonna give that back, because I know I want that in my next R. I was walled off emotionally and the “blame” for that is both of ours, but more so mine, because just as I believe love is a choice, so, too, is letting the dynamics of a M or an R suppress one’s feelings.

I’d rather think of it as being conscious of keeping both feet being on the platform and instead of jumping on the train as the doors are closing, waiting patiently for the next train, and if it’s still too crowded, waiting for the next one…

And, if that R is to be with the WAS, I agree with @SP, @Kalni, @Thinker, @TD and others that it ain’t all the LBS’ fault, it won’t work for the LBS unless the WAS does The Work.

@A&K said it well and as I read her post I think she’s almost to that place where acceptance and vulnerability can co-exist as precursors to “saving a marriage” or maybe not… [Although, granted, some could read her reference to “ambivalence” as disproving my point; but, nowhere in there do I really sense “dontgiveashitness”. It sounds more like "acceptance" to me.]

Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking

Once, I was willing to settle for just getting my H back (and did that 6 years ago. I am no longer there.

As of now, I am willing to walk into Retrovaille with nearly equal ambivalence that M "can work." I am willing to be convinced that we are a pair that can live with respect and mutual admiration, healthy boundaries, forgiveness, trust and exhibitions of valuing the relationship (reading, growing, etc).

I think that in some ways, it is the couples that really split, really take a good deal of time and space to grow (for real), and then come back together, who proceed to have marriages that I might want.

Again, saving the marriage can't be of as much importance as saving oneself.

Recently, I asked H, following his rattling off a litany of things I had done wrong or not done in the R since we last reconciled, "H, what did you change? What did you do differently?" Kaboom. There wasn't much other than a LOT of therapy that led to temporary changes in behavior that were short-lived. He changed zero, zilch, nada.

So, for the sake of sanity, for the sake of making this all worthwhile, I think you do have to jump off the cliff so to speak and let life, your own and WAS's evolutions reveal whether the new R is a viable prospect.


It’s true, and I don’t remember who posted it, that we are not all as fortunate as @Coach and @Greek to have both partners be willing to go “all in”, but that doesn’t mean we have to be okay with our sitch or notgiveashit about it, because whether or not the WAS even believes he/she needs to save himself/herself, it isn’t in our control.

Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking

Again, saving the marriage can't be of as much importance as saving oneself…


But, if you give up on your “hard earned changes” among which may be [should be?] the willingness to be vulnerable, you won’t have broken all of your own bad patterns and not only would the “new R” not be a viable prospect, but ANY “new R” of meaning will be ephemeral, too.

Originally Posted By: Thinker

So far, Mrs. Thinker has shown absolutely no interest or willingness to do any of this. She is still in the "Blame it all on Thinker and Run away" mode. I am moving ahead as if she is, at some point in time, going to decide to really work hard on herself. One of my fears, however, is that she never will.


And, @Thinker’s Fear is valid, but, Thinker that he is, he knows the answer: She may not.

Because…

Originally Posted By: traveldane

...at the end of the day, we can self improve and WAS can see it, awknowlege it, but they themselves might not want to do their own work and own their piece of the relationship.

Maybe they would rather have a blank slate or settle for less or, or, just really so many possibilities not really worth wondering about because, its their choice all the same. More power to them. Though certainly it is a refreshing window for the LBS, lets up some of burden.


So, I choose to accept… not to notgiveashit… and to stay vulnerable… because otherwise there’s no chance for me to have the kind of R I want in the future.
Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 06:18 PM
Originally Posted By: AlexEN


As I’m read this I’m wondered why dontgiveashitness and vulnerability have to be mutually exclusive? Or why it really has to be a zero-sum game?

I think two different concepts are, ahem, becoming enmeshed here… Why can’t the LBS fully detach and still be vulnerable enough to save the marriage if that opportunity ever presents itself?



First of all, we NOW also need an emoticon of a little smiley rolling on the floor hysterically laughing, cuz you're just TOO DAMNED FUNNY, Alex -- the opening of your post was great. But I hate to disappoint you, I was equally disheveled, as my job fortunately allows me the luxury to start online from home whenever I wish.

To answer your question, "I just can't." (do both) Maybe it's just me???

Puppy
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 06:19 PM
Really, it didn't look that looooooonnnngggg on my screen... crazy
Posted By: AlexEN Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 06:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails
Originally Posted By: AlexEN


As I’m read this I’m wondered why dontgiveashitness and vulnerability have to be mutually exclusive? Or why it really has to be a zero-sum game?

I think two different concepts are, ahem, becoming enmeshed here… Why can’t the LBS fully detach and still be vulnerable enough to save the marriage if that opportunity ever presents itself?



First of all, we NOW also need an emoticon of a little smiley rolling on the floor hysterically laughing, cuz you're just TOO DAMNED FUNNY, Alex -- the opening of your post was great. But I hate to disappoint you, I was equally disheveled, as my job fortunately allows me the luxury to start online from home whenever I wish.


But, that doesn't set the scene nearly as well...
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 07:13 PM
Originally Posted By: AlexEN

[Poll question: Does spending too much time on these boards constitute GALing or not?]


Good Question!

Part of GALing is meeting new friends. I feel like I have met some great new friends here - even if we never meet in person.

But the boards are also a huge time sink. whistle
Posted By: traveldane Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 07:47 PM
From City Girl's post-
"I learned in C'ing that the "growing pains" of divorce usually arent totally felt by the WAS until the divorce (legally) is over and all the BS associated with divorce is done. Reality is tough for all parties involved. Its just that the LBS has been working and preparing for the realities for some time and the WAS hasnt given much of anything any deep thought".

Experienced this when H. told me 3 mos into separation that "it was starting to feel real to him a little bit". WTF!??

But regarding "WAS hasnt given much of anything any deep thought" I'm not sure.

Just starting to see some of the things that my H. had been focused on, focused on to the point tht he was blocking out the obvious, like that one we were separated it was going to become more real, hello...but still, I had blinders on to things too. Mostly because I was focused on the reality impact of Sep/divorce. So perhaps we are trading perspectives now and again.

True, they might only be thinking "run", without "run to where" or, "then what" or "do I really want to run away from everything". But what was causing them to want to run was valid, is valid. Just as their role in the demise is equally valid.

So in the end, I guess we are back to...we all have our own work to do and have to make the choice to do that work. If only we could all get our timing in sync!
Posted By: fb2 Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/23/09 09:50 PM
SP, I "thought" you had a way with words but this has to be about the best thread I've read - and I haven't even read it all. I think Forrest can "think" about some of these "thoughts" and maybe even MWD. BTW see if you can find old thread by "GForce" it may be useful - there was some kind of "power shift" there. With the WAW its often about gains vs. losses.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/24/09 12:23 PM
Dammit! Dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam dam.

I'm feeling sorry for her. Splart! Gaack!

All that stuff @Greek writes about WAW. It's right!

Poor WAW. She came home from work last night and, though I thought I'd seen her discombobulated, she was stone-cold-discombobulated. With 48 hours or so left in this house, her house, "our" house, the kids' house -- she doesn't know which way is up.

And it's creating serious tension, just as @Coach predicted. I'd grilled some lamb chops for the kids 'n' me, and I'd told her on the phone that there was food left. So I grill up the chop, grill up some asparagus and mushrooms, bake her crescent roll (Pillsbury, dudes -- I'm not that good a guy, LOL), and serve it. And the look on her face is somewhere between Despair and Loathing, as if to say, "Who the hell do you think you are feeding me this tasty food, buster?"

And it just went downhill from there. She's tired of me being supportive. She's tired of me "wanting" her to say things -- she's got nothing to say! She's irritated by me being available! IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THIS!

Yep. Gotta love that Divorce-Busting.

So I'm stepping back. She needs even more space, even more room. And, yes indeed @Greek, as hard as it is for LBS to acknowledge and accept, she needs time to grieve.

It's very weird, I'll admit. But I've come to the realization that we LBS tend to create caricatures of WAS -- just as they create caricatures of us -- in order to facilitate the process, whatever the Way of the WAS is. We know ourselves to be greater than the sum of our parts; we know that we're better than what our marital failings indicate; we know we're capable of better and more and deeper and richer -- hell, it's why we're working so hard at this thing. So why doesn't WAS see that, s/he says in anguish?

Because they can't see that, at least not while they're in the fog. Who're they going to believe, the Way of the WAS or their lying eyes?

Think about it objectively (and this is something we've discussed in earlier threads of mine) -- decades of research in social-psychology teaches us that, as humans, we hate disconfirming information. We take stuff that doesn't "seem right" and mush and mash and smush and smash it around until it does "seem right" -- where "right" is defined as "matching what we already believe." Each of us knows this just in terms of our politics -- "our" guy is always right, even if he's wrong, because his wrongness is "right."

It seems to me that the tipping point for the lucky few like @Coach/Greek is when WAS acknowledges that the eyes don't lie. When WAS stops fighting the disconfirming information and says to him/herself, "Maybe I was wrong."

But that's a tough row to hoe, sports fans. And WAS needs time and space to hoe that row.

I saw that last night, almost for the first time.

Because I'm Divorce-Busting or Way of Warring (cf, @Gypsy) or whatever-it-is-I'm-doing. And it's messing up the Way of the WAS. So now it's time to sit back. Keep up my GAL (I've sort of plateau'd, so need to re-energize there). I've got to Keep Rolling My Way.

But.

Much as I hate to admit it.

So does WAW.
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/24/09 12:28 PM
Quote:
SP, I "thought" you had a way with words but this has to be about the best thread I've read


@fb2: Thanks very much for that compliment, but the credit goes to the community -- @aliveandkicking, Forrest Gump, Coach, Greek, Puppy Dog Tails, Thinker, jaguilar, orangedog, mindblank, Gardener, Traveldane, AlexEN, Kalni, pollyanna, Gypsy, DanceQueen, Silver Fox, and anyone else I've overlooked -- whose comments/questions/challenges make the discussion move forward.

I'm just sitting here waving my hands.
Posted By: Thinker Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/24/09 12:31 PM
Originally Posted By: SmileysPerson

I'm just sitting here waving my hands.


To quote your post on my thread this morning:
"I'm all for credit-where-credit-is-due. Cut yourself a break, dude."
Posted By: SmileysPerson Re: Gonna Get Me A Mojo Hand - 06/24/09 12:35 PM
@Thinker: Part of GALing is meeting new friends. I feel like I have met some great new friends here - even if we never meet in person.

Fact, Stone. Written in. One each. (Ex-military will get it.)

I had the privilege of meeting a great new friend (? - one hopes) from the DB community in person yesterday. Odd as it was initially -- it must be somewhat like computer dating -- it quickly became just a "normal thing" (for me anyway). Maybe that's how we meet people these days? I don't know. But whatever. I guess there aren't really bowling leagues anymore....

But the Meeting (and I mean that in the verb and not noun sense) was superb. A terrific person. Who knows who Him/Herself is. smile
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