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Well another one got locked

Here are the links to the last 9:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...=4&fpart=14

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...=5&fpart=13

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...=2&fpart=15

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...=1&fpart=15

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...=1&fpart=23

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...=1&fpart=23

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1750016&page=16

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...=2&fpart=14

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1769897&page=17

We just past the 6 week "anniversay" of where she moved out and 5.5 months since she filed for divorce.

This was a tough week. I think when she called two weeks ago on Friday crying about being sad I got myself more hopeful. Since then, she told our 7 year old that there was a possibility that she wasn't coming back. And this morning, she called all upset that my 7 year old told her that she had to move back in or we would lose the house. She asked why I told him that. I told her that it was the truth - he saw I was looking at houses and I told him that with mommy not living with us, I can not afford to keep the house, but we would pick one out together. She said why didn't I tell him that I was just moving. I told her because that wasn't the truth.

I said that I needed to plan for the fact that she isn't coming back. I told reminded her that she said it as recently as 2 weeks ago. She said she doesn't remember saying anything like that. I told her it was 2 fridays ago when she called and reminded me that she still hadn't changed her mind. She said that wasn't the same as not coming back. She said it was that she still hadn't changed her mind of needing time and space to think if a divorce is what she wants.

She then said, everyday she feels more strongly that it is, but as these types of communication issues continue, she really feels that things haven't changed. I told her that I'm not surprised as we aren't working on it. She says that "I can be an adult" and call her when I have something on my mind. I told her that I was trying to give her the time and space that she wanted so I'm confused of what she expects from me.

She then shifted into how I was starting to repeat myself so if there wasn't anything new, she was going to say goodbye. I told her that we could try and talk to tonite (don't know why I said that, nor do I know what I'm going to talk about).

Then I went to church.

I shouldn't have answered the call, but then she would have just been stewing the entire time about what my 7 year old said. I guess I shouldn't have said anything to him, or should have just said we were moving. Any thoughts?

Volleydog, on thread #9, before it got locked, posted "Sorry CIPA BUT from you last few posts it looks to me like you are using your kids to guilt your W into coming back...Bringing up the fact she didn't call your S back, the thing about the house. If your son is upset she didn't call him back let him tell her WITHOUT ANY pushing by you. Telling your son you have to move because of their Mom even if it's the truth makes her out to be the bad person and you don't want that, I hope."

I'm not sure if that's what I was trying to do. Maybe I'm starting to become resentful about this entire situation and I'm blaming her. I don't know.

Another thing that she said during the call right before church is that she the feeling that this is the right thing to do is getting stronger and stronger everyday. Not what I wanted to hear.
Well, I'm afraid that Coach is going to russel up the DB caravan for this one and it won't be for a DB GAL road trip

My wife called me to follow up on the call this morning. She wound up in tears of how she is still so hurt and can't ever see trusting me with her feelings or in my changes or that I will ever truly just get her and that she just doesn't want to be my wife any more. She knows that I am becoming a better person with my changes and knows that I am a great dad but just can't be vulnerable enough to be my wife.

I told her that I feel that hurt that she was feeling, and asked if there was anything that I could do.

She asks that I at least recognize her as the mother of the children and treat her nicely, not cold/mean.

I told her that if we do wind up divorced, I will be cordial and courteous, but will not be able to be friends with the woman I love and not be able to show her that.

She then said that it will be for the best of the kids if I could be. She then went on about how she just can't doesn't have any feelings for me that way anymore. She says that she doesn't hate me, but just doesn't have the feelings a wife should have for a husband.

I said that she didn't have those feelings when we first met, but they grew. She responded that was before she had all the hurt. I told her that I can understand how holding onto the hurt will prevent the feelings or trust from getting established.

She said that right now she would trust a stranger more than she could trust me with her feelings. She said that the past is the best indication of how a person will be and in the past I clearly shown how I couldn't be trusted with her heart/vulnerability.

I said that was the past and this is the present and I've changed.

She said that we had talked about it in the past, but I didn't change then so what would make her think it will be different in the future. She said that we tried in the past when we talked about it and it didn't happen.

I told her that I didn't understand it back then like I do now. She said that there wasn't any feelings left and she can't find a reason to try now.

I told her that talking to a therapist has really helped me understand and that she had mentioned about talking to a therapist a couple of weeks ago. She said that she still hasn't had time to go/find one (guess she isn't ready to do the work). I asked her about Weds' appointment and she said it was for a chiropractor.

She then went into how she still hasn't found a reason to change her mind and how if I had just signed the paper back in January, we would have been done right now/today. She said that she even when we are doing family things together, she doesn't have the feeling of how good it is to see me or to see me again.

She said that all I've done so far is confuse her because I've said I've changed but I still don't get her. When I asked what she meant by get her, she said understand how she feels or what she wants/needs. I asked her how was I suppose to do that when we don't talk about it. She then said that I should call her to find out or if I don't understand what she wants.

I told her that I was trying to respect her time and space so, as I told her the day she moved out, was that I wasn't going to call her and that she can call me if she wants to talk. She said that's not what she meant by time and space, she didn't want to me to call and ask her for lunch and/or dinner every nite.

She then went into how I had all those years where I didn't show her any attention and neglected her. I told her that she has my full undivided attention now. She said I have a confusing way of showing it.

She was still crying through all this. Then I told her that I had wanted to call her, but didn't because I was trying to respect her time and space. She said that was just like the past, how when she was around, I wouldn't talk to her and just ignore her and acted like I didn't want her around or go out on a date.

I then said that I can't explain why I did acted that way in the past and appologized for it already. I then told her that I was confused as to what she wanted or was expecting from me.

She said that she wanted me to treat her the way I want to. Then I told her that I wanted to treat her as my wife, but she said she didn't want that.

So then I said that I would love to spend time with just the two of us to try and get to know each other again. She asked, like a date. I said yes and she said the word date scares her. I then said how about just lunch to chat. She said that we could but it's not what she would really want to do so she wouldn't want to give me false hope. ACK!!! I said if that's the case, that would just add to the hurt then.

She then went on about how I should just call/email/text her whenever I wanted to, like she does. I then asked what if that includes asking about lunch. She said that I could if I wanted to. I then suggested perhaps it would be better if she contact me then. She said that it wouldnt' be on the top of her priority.

I was starting to get frustrated so I wound up ending the call when she yawned by saying it was getting late.

NOT GOOD. PLEASE BE GENTLE WITH THE 2x4's
I've had almost verbatim the same conversation with my W. I'll be very interested to see the 2x4s that you get hit with...
I just hope they aren't 2x6's

The only reason why I didn't just end the call early was because I really didn't understand about "getting her" and what she had expected me to do. I had tried the no initiating calls/contact thing for the past 6 weeks. Problem is she said that was just reinforcing more of the past. She said that she tried to contact me almost daily and I just ignored her like I did in the past. Now she says that was enough

Argh!!!!

So now what?
Posted By: GH31 Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 06/01/09 05:49 AM
Quote:
She said that she tried to contact me almost daily and I just ignored her like I did in the past. Now she says that was enough


DBing is best defined as follows:

Use what works, reject what doesn't work

Go back and read what you just wrote my friend and make a note of what got you favourable results and what got you unfavourable results. The further you get in this DB odyssey, the more you'll realise what works and what does not. Do what works i.e. do the things which result in drawing your wife closer to you and avoid doing things which have the opposite effect. This is easier said than done and will take lots of self-discipline but you must get a grip of yourself and give yourself and your marriage the best chance.

I have been very abusive and thoughtless in my own marriage. Whenever my wife asked why I had carried on like that I simply said "I can't explain it in a way which doesn't sound like I'm making excuses. I was wrong before and you can't defend the indefensible". During the last 18 months I have lost count of the number of times I said that - my wife still asks me this but much less frequently now.

Hope this helps - very sorry that you have to be here.
CIPA,

Your W is still engaging in the blaming you game. You've told her time and time again what you want, what you're doing, etc. And she's still asking you "what are you doing" "I'm getting mixed signals" "It's all your fault".

Utter garbage.

It's like what sandi said, you're not a mindreader and it's especially hard when she tells you one thing and acts another.

For example, she told you it was the responsibility of the parent with the kids to have the call. Then when you did that, she didn't call, nor did she apologize the following day. That's being plain rude and selfish. What's up with her "do as I say and not as I do" mentality.

Like before she moved out...before she got into it, you should have stopped her before she went off on the blame game on you and told her "look, I'm not a mind reader. I've told you over and over again. Do you want space or not? Do you want me to pursue you or not? It's as simple as that." Or just flat out tell her that you have been getting mixed messages from her so you're giving her space and time to sort things out. That you love her very much and that you would like to be together, but this is what she asked for and you are respecting that. End of story.

In your case, your W still has not dealt with any of her anger/issues and prefers to use you as the scapegoat. Before you go beating yourself up, let me ask you this...how many times has she gone to therapy? Zero?

She's scared, mixed up and has just realized that she's alone without her kids half the time. It was her choice. But rather than accepting resposibility, she's taking it out on you.

Don't take that crap. Remember to stop her before she goes off on you. Be as compassionate as you can, but it's obvious she's mixed up because she doesn't even remember what she's been saying.

Back off a bit and let deal with herself. Put your foot down and tell her to start looking at herself rather than you being the one to solve all her problems.

All the hurt she's experiencing now is what she's doing to herself.

Stay as strong as possible.
Oh yeah, and protect your kids.

I can't believe you let her get away with hitting your son. Especially when it's totally out of character. There's no justification for it.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Oh yeah, and protect your kids.

I can't believe you let her get away with hitting your son. Especially when it's totally out of character. There's no justification for it.


Stuck,

I would have made a bigger deal about it if she hadn't brought it up. I am "on alert" for more of it and do appreciate your concern.

Thanks
Originally Posted By: stuck808
CIPA,

Your W is still engaging in the blaming you game. You've told her time and time again what you want, what you're doing, etc. And she's still asking you "what are you doing" "I'm getting mixed signals" "It's all your fault".

Utter garbage.

In your case, your W still has not dealt with any of her anger/issues and prefers to use you as the scapegoat. Before you go beating yourself up, let me ask you this...how many times has she gone to therapy? Zero?



I see that she's still using the blaming game. I noticed that its shifted from what I did or didn't do to how I didn't change when we talked about it during marriage counseling all last year (pre-bomb). I had tried to respond, but she had then cut me off that how I didn't know isn't an excuse. I told her that I didn't understand, a subtle difference, but I understand now and have spent time working on me so I have changed.

I've been pressing the therapy issue, more so this time where I used what was suggested in one of my other threads of talking about how therapy has helped me and reminded how she had mentioned it a couple of weeks ago. When she started saying she didn't have time nor couldn't afford it, I did tell her just let me know what I can do to help.

I do agree that until she works on herself of letting go of the hurt/past, I'm at a roadblock. When she said that the past is really the best indicator of behavior in the future, I realized that was equivalent to a death sentence. I've seen it with her behavior with her father and sister. She has always kept them at arms length. I feel like that's what she is setting me up to be - not what I want to be nor in the best interest of the kids.

Originally Posted By: stuck808
Do you want space or not? Do you want me to pursue you or not? It's as simple as that." Or just flat out tell her that you have been getting mixed messages from her so you're giving her space and time to sort things out. That you love her very much and that you would like to be together, but this is what she asked for and you are respecting that. End of story.



That was one of my key "agenda" points, to really understand what she wanted/expected from me to treat her. It almost sounded like what Sandi had suggested in thread #9, that she wants to be pursued and swept off her feet, like a romance novel. That's my connundrum right now, do I do that, totally against DB/DR principles, with the potential of setting myself up for rejection?!?!?

Originally Posted By: stuck808
She's scared, mixed up and has just realized that she's alone without her kids half the time. It was her choice. But rather than accepting resposibility, she's taking it out on you.

Don't take that crap. Remember to stop her before she goes off on you. Be as compassionate as you can, but it's obvious she's mixed up because she doesn't even remember what she's been saying.


The only thing I truly believe is that she is still hurting - I can hear it in her voice and tears. I try to be compassionate, and when she is "blaming" me, she's not going off yelling or screaming, but says it in between the tears.

Originally Posted By: stuck808
Back off a bit and let deal with herself. Put your foot down and tell her to start looking at herself rather than you being the one to solve all her problems.

All the hurt she's experiencing now is what she's doing to herself.

Stay as strong as possible.


So by back off, do you mean back off of Dark/Dim (sorry Sandi) or what? I know I can't do anything about her hurt, and I'm focusing on strengthening and making me the best CIPA I can be. I know that whether I save the marriage or not, I will be OK as a person (financially is a different story as she said that she wanted to find out what she was legally entitled to, not just what we agreed to - ACK!)

This is definitely a bizzare WAW. How many WAW's out there still want their LBS to call and chat with them and etc?!?!?!
Originally Posted By: stuck808
CIPA,

Your W is still engaging in the blaming you game. You've told her time and time again what you want, what you're doing, etc. And she's still asking you "what are you doing" "I'm getting mixed signals" "It's all your fault".

Utter garbage.

It's like what sandi said, you're not a mindreader and it's especially hard when she tells you one thing and acts another.

For example, she told you it was the responsibility of the parent with the kids to have the call. Then when you did that, she didn't call, nor did she apologize the following day. That's being plain rude and selfish. What's up with her "do as I say and not as I do" mentality.

Like before she moved out...before she got into it, you should have stopped her before she went off on the blame game on you and told her "look, I'm not a mind reader. I've told you over and over again. Do you want space or not? Do you want me to pursue you or not? It's as simple as that." Or just flat out tell her that you have been getting mixed messages from her so you're giving her space and time to sort things out. That you love her very much and that you would like to be together, but this is what she asked for and you are respecting that. End of story.

In your case, your W still has not dealt with any of her anger/issues and prefers to use you as the scapegoat. Before you go beating yourself up, let me ask you this...how many times has she gone to therapy? Zero?

She's scared, mixed up and has just realized that she's alone without her kids half the time. It was her choice. But rather than accepting resposibility, she's taking it out on you.

Don't take that crap. Remember to stop her before she goes off on you. Be as compassionate as you can, but it's obvious she's mixed up because she doesn't even remember what she's been saying.

Back off a bit and let deal with herself. Put your foot down and tell her to start looking at herself rather than you being the one to solve all her problems.

All the hurt she's experiencing now is what she's doing to herself.

Stay as strong as possible.


Great post! Great responses to CIPA's concerns!
Quote:
Dim to me is where I do not initiate any calls/contact but when we do interact, I show her a happy, positive, caring and attentive CIPA.


Okay, I understand.

About the call on Sunday......first of all, let me say this to you about telling your 7 years old child that you may not be able to keep your house if Mommy doesn't come back home. If I had a club right now, I would use it on you. You NEVER, EVER tell a child that young anything like that! It will cause his insecurities to increase by leeps and bounds. Children are not equipped to deal with adult "business" matters. There is no telling how he may have interpreted that one issue. You are so caught up in your problems and emotions that you are not using wisdom where your children are concerned. Please be careful in the future what you say to them.

Next, if you had the children with you, then you knew her call was not anything about the kids, so you should not have responded. You walked right into that one and further more, I think you knew you would!

Your wife is doing more of the same old---same old, nothing has changed. You are still talking waaaaaay too much in response to her complaining. You want to know what you should do??? I can tell you but you won't do it b/c it would be something you are afraid to do. If it were me, I would call her bluff! All this yacking about her trying to make up her mind and she is just keeping you sitting in the "hot seat" (where she wants you to be) and she keeps calling the shots.........the next time she came up with all this stuff about divorce, I would just tell her to do whatever she feels she has to do and I would not argue with her or try to get her to change her mind. She will play this game as long as you continue to be her puppet!

Got to go to work. Talk more later.

Sandi

Originally Posted By: sandi2
About the call on Sunday......first of all, let me say this to you about telling your 7 years old child that you may not be able to keep your house if Mommy doesn't come back home. If I had a club right now, I would use it on you. You NEVER, EVER tell a child that young anything like that! It will cause his insecurities to increase by leeps and bounds. Children are not equipped to deal with adult "business" matters. There is no telling how he may have interpreted that one issue. You are so caught up in your problems and emotions that you are not using wisdom where your children are concerned. Please be careful in the future what you say to them.


I know that was a huge mistake. I didn't start by going that route. I started by saying that we may have to sell the house and move. When he started stressing about how he liked the house and doesn't want to move I guess I lost it as well. It was really a hard thing for me to deal with and I know it was totally unfair for me to share this burden with him. I'll have him back on Thurs so I'll make sure I talk to him about this to diffuse it as much as possible.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Next, if you had the children with you, then you knew her call was not anything about the kids, so you should not have responded. You walked right into that one and further more, I think you knew you would!


I didn't have the kids with me on the call Sunday. She had called earlier, about 15 minutes after she picked up the kids as my 3 year old wanted to remind me to charge the battery on his ride on dump truck so it will be ready when he comes home. So when she called back about 10 minutes later, I thought it was more of the same. Boy was I wrong....

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Your wife is doing more of the same old---same old, nothing has changed. You are still talking waaaaaay too much in response to her complaining. You want to know what you should do??? I can tell you but you won't do it b/c it would be something you are afraid to do. If it were me, I would call her bluff! All this yacking about her trying to make up her mind and she is just keeping you sitting in the "hot seat" (where she wants you to be) and she keeps calling the shots.........the next time she came up with all this stuff about divorce, I would just tell her to do whatever she feels she has to do and I would not argue with her or try to get her to change her mind. She will play this game as long as you continue to be her puppet!


Wow - that is really a tough one. From last nite's call, it sounded like she's is done making up her mind as she said pretty clearly that she doesn't want to be my wife any more as she doesn't trust me. Part of the conversation last nite was she felt that I still don't get her and am not listening to her, so it was more of the same from the past.

I don't follow the strategy of telling her to do whatever she feels she has to do and not to try to change her mind. Now remember, I am, as you had pointed out, a DAM :-p

PS - glad you're feeling better and for stopping by with your club!
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa


From last nite's call, it sounded like she's is done making up her mind as she said pretty clearly that she doesn't want to be my wife any more as she doesn't trust me.



How many times in your life, especially when you were fighting with your wife, have you said something that you did not mean? You may have said it because you were pissed off and/or hurt...but you did not mean it! Other people do these things too! Don't believe ANYTHING she says right now! Shed it like water off a duck's back.
Originally Posted By: antlers
How many times in your life, especially when you were fighting with your wife, have you said something that you did not mean? You may have said it because you were pissed off and/or hurt...but you did not mean it! Other people do these things too! Don't believe ANYTHING she says right now! Shed it like water off a duck's back.


After the call last nite, I tried to calm myself with the fact that she said exactly the same thing before she left and about a month after the Divorce filing. Unfortunately, I kept coming up with another thing that she said, that she felt "the urgent need to escape the hurt before it was too late" - meaning move out. Now that she's "escaped the hurt", she now feels like its really too late.

I know that she can't/won't let go of the hurt, nor get any help to do so. I don't know why, but do know I can't do anything about it. Until then, there is no chance to rebuild the trust.

I'm still struggling with what she said of how she feels since she's moved out, I had shown her that I hadn't changed as I've been neglecting her again - not calling, talking, chatting, etc. I had told her that was my way of respecting her time and space to heal, but she said that the time and space to heal was not to be asked to go to dinner or lunch all the time. So she's said that I should call if I want to call (she said the same thing about 3 weeks ago).

I really don't get it as this is so anti DB/DR. I've bounced along other threads and haven't seen anything like this come up. Part of me thinks it's cake eating. Part of me thing she's trying to pull my strings like a puppet as I've given her all the power. Part of me also thinks she's being truthful as that is what she really wants.

She did call me this morning. I was in a meeting and couldn't really hear her so I told her that I would just call her back later. When I called her back, she said I had forgotten to pack my 3 year old's pillow for school and his day care tuition was due today. She chit chatted a bit and I joked around with her with a postive upbeat attitude.

I'm still confused though. What to do?!?!?!?!

This now the second time she's asked/stated that I should call her if I wanted to. Very bizzare, even for a WAW
Well when you've wanted to call her but didn't what did you want to talk about? IF you call her and I'm guessing you will in the next few days just make sure no R talk at all, keep it short and sweet.
Originally Posted By: volleydog
Well when you've wanted to call her but didn't what did you want to talk about? IF you call her and I'm guessing you will in the next few days just make sure no R talk at all, keep it short and sweet.


When I wanted to call her, but didn't I wanted to just ask how she was doing or what was going on (in a non-relationship way). I guess it's part of the co-dependency thing where just hearing her voice calms me. Ironically, part of my wife's complaing pre-bomb was that when I traveled (I went to Europe for about a week about every 10 weeks) that I would never call. I would send a couple of text, but nothing of substance. I had told her that I didn't call because of the time difference (didn't want to wake her or the kids) as well as that I do get sad when I'm that far and hear her voice, but know I'm not there.

I'm still debating about calling her. I talked to my friend who is a WAW and she suggests that my wife just needs a shoulder to cry on or a friend to help her through this or someway to make her feel wanted by someone. She thinks I would be wasting my time and that I should just move on. It make sense to me, but she also said that she, in a million years, would never want to have her husband as a friend or a shoulder to cry on.

If I do call, I was going to keep it light chit chat - sort of like (hold the 2x4's) date conversation. Again, IF I do call.

Another thought is that she is truly too afraid to openly make herself trust me or be vulnerable with me, so this is her attempt to see, sorta like putting her small toe in the water.

I know Sandi said something similar to my WAW friend as that I would be wasting my time and helping her right out of my life.

I just don't know.

So folks, has anybody have a WAW, after they left, be upset that the LBS hasn't called.....
Quote:
PS - glad you're feeling better and for stopping by with your club!


LOL.....anytime. But I must have read your post too quickly b/c I did misunderstand about having the children Sunday....so I do apologize for that one. I can understand how easy it is to tell kids too much.....I really can, but I hope you can take my "experienced" advice and be very careful what you say b/c we don't see it from a little child's POV.

Quote:
I don't follow the strategy of telling her to do whatever she feels she has to do and not to try to change her mind. Now remember, I am, as you had pointed out, a DAM :-p


Nothing hard about it. It is the same thing I have told you all along......"drop the rope". I think she protesteth too much! I feel that she is telling you this same old stuff over and over to work you (as I said before) like a puppet. At any rate, from where I see it, that is the best route to take. I know you think you have dropped the rope.....but in your heart you haven't. When you truly drop the rope you will be able to feel peace and not worry and be able to move forward with you life whether it includes her or not. Until you reach that level of mentality, you have not really dropped anything. The point is this......SHE KNOWS IT! I may be as wrong as sin, but I think if you were to call her bluff.....she would make a turn about face quicker than you could blink. If she thought you really did not care if she divorced you or if you "wanted" a D, then she would suddenly see you as unavailable to her and you would become more attractive and she would want you IMHO. I am just thinking like a female. You guys may be a DAM, but we are just plain crazy in how we think! Stop and think about this. If there is no other man in the picture, why would she want to D you? Oh, I know all those old excuses she is using, but I don't buy it. If you have not seen any of the MLC symptons in her (and I don't know that I have) then what is the deal with her? Women don't usually get a D unless there is another person, abuse, MLC, or just can't take living with no love in return. She may think you don't "listen" to her, etc., but she knows you LOVE her. So again, I ask you.......what is the real deal with her?

Talk later,
Sandi

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I don't follow the strategy of telling her to do whatever she feels she has to do and not to try to change her mind. Now remember, I am, as you had pointed out, a DAM :-p


Nothing hard about it. It is the same thing I have told you all along......"drop the rope". I think she protesteth too much! I feel that she is telling you this same old stuff over and over to work you (as I said before) like a puppet. At any rate, from where I see it, that is the best route to take. I know you think you have dropped the rope.....but in your heart you haven't. When you truly drop the rope you will be able to feel peace and not worry and be able to move forward with you life whether it includes her or not. Until you reach that level of mentality, you have not really dropped anything. The point is this......SHE KNOWS IT! I may be as wrong as sin, but I think if you were to call her bluff.....she would make a turn about face quicker than you could blink. If she thought you really did not care if she divorced you or if you "wanted" a D, then she would suddenly see you as unavailable to her and you would become more attractive and she would want you IMHO. I am just thinking like a female. You guys may be a DAM, but we are just plain crazy in how we think! Stop and think about this. If there is no other man in the picture, why would she want to D you? Oh, I know all those old excuses she is using, but I don't buy it. If you have not seen any of the MLC symptons in her (and I don't know that I have) then what is the deal with her? Women don't usually get a D unless there is another person, abuse, MLC, or just can't take living with no love in return. She may think you don't "listen" to her, etc., but she knows you LOVE her. So again, I ask you.......what is the real deal with her?

Talk later,
Sandi



Sandi

I think part of the problem with calling her "bluff" right now is that if I sign the divorce papers tomorrow, it will be final as soon as it is filed since we are now past the 90 day waiting period.

I think I'm beginning to understand what you mean by "dropping the rope". I was actually at that point for a couple of days many posts ago. Not sure how long ago, but I will reread my threads just to figure out how I got there. I know I haven't been there in a while.

I do agree that she is just using the same stuff over and over again. I had my therapist appointment today and she agreed that I need to stop letting her lay the guilt/blame on me everytime. She had a good suggestion, which I will definitely take, of rather than focusing every moment on my long term goal of saving my marriage and bringing the family back to together to an immediate goal of the next time of have my kids, to have fun with them and not to have anything related to my situation (particularly things related to the adult relationship) be a distraction.

She really stressed that when I told her about my 7 year old and the house issue as well as how on Friday nite after I tucked the kids to bed, my 3 year old called me back into the room to give me a hug so I would feel better from being sad.

I do agree and will make it my goal for their next return home.

My therapist also said that it feels like my wife is avoiding therapy and is using me as a shoulder to cry on, which is very bizzare behavior on my wife's part. She then said that it was even more bizzare behavior on my part for ignoring my feelings and allowing. Now, I've always been confused about my feelings, but she said that it must be hurtful to me to keep getting the "pity party" dump from my wife. In thinking about it, it is. She said it was very disrespectful of my wife to disregard my feelings by continuing to do that, as well as how she is hurting the kids by tearing apart the family.

Sorry for the tangent, but this goes back to what is the deal with my wife. In the beginning a few people here thought she was going through a mid life crisis as she was going through the pity party all the time of how she wasted 10 years of her life being miserable and now that she has "baggage" (kids) she will never be able to find true happiness. My therapist also thinks that my wife is depressed and really needs help in letting go of anger/hurt and has a unrealistic view of how men and women relate. She thinks that comes from her father abandoning her family at 7.

I truly think my wife's deal is that I hurt her feelings by ignoring/neglecting her and taking her for granted. She said that I would never talk to her and made her feel like I didn't want her around. She said that she thought I prefered to be alone watching television or doing work on my laptop, than to be with her. She actually felt I was emotionally abusive how I withheld my love for her and became very controlling and did not respect her. I look back at it with clear eyes now of how "mean" I was to her by not only making her feel unloved, but unlovable. I didn't realize that was what I was doing (my therapist said that I suffered from mild depression as well when I got overwhelmed by stress at work, home and family). I get it now, but my wife says its too late. Nevertheless, my wife has an issue of forgiving and letting go. She never forgave/trusted her dad again and has the same issue with her sister from something in HS.

When we started getting serious, one of the things my wife really stressed/cried about one time was how she worried that I would hurt her (I was a player type of person back in the day and she knew it based on the girls I had dated before her). She actually made me promise.

So now my wife feels that she can't trust me enough to be vulnerable with me again and has closed off her heart so she can't love me like a wife should love her husband. She says that every time she sees me she still feels hurt. Either because she remembers the hurt or it hurst when she sees that I get it now, but didn't back when she actually cared or would have made a difference.

She actually slipped once of how she's frustrated that she's not going to be the one to enjoy the time with me now that I get it as she knows that I'll just move on and find someone else.

She has very low self esteem so I think that also weighs on her as she thinks that once she comes back, I will just go back to the way it was and she will be hurt again. When my therapist/marriage counselor suggested that I was suffering from a mild depression, my wife was very animated as to what if it comes back. It took filing for divorce to snap me out of it, is that something that she will have to do everytime it comes back. I think the final nail in my coffin was when one of her friends husband, who suffered from depression, made her and their daughter's life miserable, right up the point he committed suicide at 46.

So in short, I think my wife has been very badly hurt by the person she made herself totally vulnerable to and is now afraid of experiencing that pain again. She even said how she sees I've changed, but know that I will not be perfect and feels that the first time I slip up, no matter how sleight, it will crush her. I know she needs help. I can't do the work for her. She does. I just don't think she's in a place where she will/can/wants to.

That's just my humble opinion....

So with all that extra "info", what should I do?

I feel that she's not bluffing and will actually be hurt when I say that I've given up as well and want a divorce. She had said that was one of the two reactions she expected from me when she filed. The other would be I would get so angry that I would be violent (where I have NEVER been violent and only raised my voice less than 5 times in the 12 years we were together). She was totally not expecting that I would want to work on it as she felt I gave up loving her years ago. She said that she thought about withdrawing the divorce when I told her that I wanted to work on it, but said that she was just too afraid of getting hurt again.

But then again, I'm just a DAM so what the heck do I know.....
Have you really given up or is that only a reaction to how bad this hurts?
I think what sandi means by calling her bluff isn't to be the first one to sign the papers. Just do what you're supposed to have been doing all this time...GAL.

Right now every interaction you have is with your W and how you should act or not act around her. And she calls ALOT! So, you need to detach more. More meaning not to let her suck you into her way of confusion.

Why not be honest and tell her that she cannot rely on you being the one to make her happy or unhappy? The "hurt" that she keeps heaping on you is really getting pretty old. I mean, unless you beat her, there is no hurt. The mis-communication that you've been going through is what couples do. Or rather, men and women.

NO ONE is going to be so in tuned with their partner that they know exactly what the other wants. Especially if the other partner doesn't say what they want in the first place. Stop beating yourself over the past "hurt". You see she's already sucked you into her way of thinking.

There is no "hurt". Because if it was that bad, then she wouldn't be calling you to begin with.

"So now my wife feels that she can't trust me enough to be vulnerable with me again and has closed off her heart so she can't love me like a wife should love her husband."

Trust you with what? She trusts you with the kids, she trusts calling you, for god's sake, she trusted you touching her before she left. She has no idea how a "wife should love her husband" because she doesn't know. It probably stems back to her childhood where her mom was waiting for her dad to come home all those years. She was probably waiting too and was expecting him to be this perfect Prince Charming to her mom. Well she's looking for that in you and no one can ever live to such a high expectation.

The only reason I think it's an MLC is because according to the research, that's the time when men and women re-evaluate their lives and even come to grips with un-resolved issues in their childhood.

During that period, they get emotional (cry, angry, depressed, etc.) because they don't understand what's going on inside them. Think of a teenager. Some have a ton of angst, others are passive, while others discover what their limits are. It's the same way with MLC and I see your W going through all that.

Fact is you can't analyze her because she doesn't understand herself. Only thing you can do is hold on while she goes through this journey alone. You can, however, gently guide her in the right direction if you do it in the right way.

Sandi's been great at helping me with that.
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Have you really given up or is that only a reaction to how bad this hurts?


No I haven't. I was refering to if I called her bluff as Sandi suggested by telling her that I accept the divorce
Ok. Good. I was imagining that blowing up really bad.
I am trying to put myself in your place to get an idea of how scary it would be to drop the rope at this point in time. However, at the risk of sounding down right cruel I have to say that she sounds very whinny and complains all the time and lays all the guilt at your feet without her accepting any responsibility of the breakdown of the marriage. I know it is not me that is in love with her (which is probably a very good thing, b/c I would not have any patient with somebody of her personality traits). That is not to say that I don't feel sorry for what her dad did to her or any of the pain she has suffered, however, she is not a forgiving person (as you said) and hangs onto the hurt/anger and does not let it go. When there has been trouble in a MR, there has to be forgiveness! Look how she has done with her sister all these years. That is just stupid for an adult to keep harboring that kind of bad stuff and not enjoying a R with one's own family member. So.......where does that put you? First, if she won't forgive another person that hurt her, do you honestly think she would EVER forgive you? Even if she went back home, I bet she would whine and complain and carry on all the time about this same stuff that she is doing now. I don't see her letting it go and moving on with life! She may be depressed and probably has been for years. Sounds as if she should have been in therapy at a young age. But if she won't attend sessions now......where does that put you? You see, you are always talking about what she says or feels.....but what about YOU? How do you feel about a future with her.....honestly? I don't mean what you WISH would happen in the future, but knowing her like you do......where does it put you in the future? Would you really be happy with a person like her that is always brow-beating you about how unhappy you have made her....but she never does anything to help herself? What has she done in all of this to actually help herself? I see you going to the therapist and doing other things to try to change for the better, but what is she doing? All I see is her crying on your shoulder and telling you what a miserable life she has had. You are her scape goat! How will you ever have any self esteem yourself living with a person like her? She will keep you so pulled down that you can't see sunshine.

I know I am not sounding like a person that is trying to help bust a D, but I am trying to get you to see this from a different angle. Let's say that you sign the papers and the D goes through. That is not necessarily the END. There have been a lot of people who got back together after a D. It may be the very thing for her to find out what she really wants to do with her life and who she wants to spend it with. At first I thought she sounded like she may be in MLC, but I think your therapist may be right b/c all I see is a person who feels that her life with you has been wasted. That sounds like depression, and if she was in MLC she would be doing a lot of other things that shouted MLC......and according to what I have read.....I don't see it.

I don't mean to be offensive and I hope you understand that part. I am just saying that it sounds like it would be a very unhealty R to stay with her as she is now. She needs to understand how much she needs help......and to go get it for herself. She needs to stop expecting somebody else to "make" her happy.....especially you! Do I make sense or am I talking in circles? I realize that it is very easy from my end to give out this advise and not have to travel the path. All I can do is throw it out there and you take it or leave it. My personal thoughts about it all is that there may be "hope" after a D, but I don't see a lot of it now. In time, she may come to see how wrong SHE has been in all of this--and other relationships as well. Hopefully, she will seek out the therapy she needs and mentally and emotionally heals to a much stronger person. In the meantime, you need to think about you and your sons. You need to get a real life for yourself. You know what you will have to do in order to accomplish that, don't you? That means that after the D she cannot continue to hang onto you and whine and cry and blame you with all her sadness. I will bet you that is exactly what she will do after the D b/c that is who and what she is! It is up to you if you want her to drag you down with her or if you decide that it is more healthy to back away and detach from her......drop the rope.....and consentrate on your life and your sons. As I told you almost in the beginning.....I think both of you are co-dependent on each other and I don't see this as a healthy relationship.

Whatever happens, you will still have us here to try to encourage you along the way. There are many, many people here on the board whose M's did not make it......but THEY made it. See the difference? This board is about helping people through a really bad time but coming out as a whole person and being stronger and getting on with their lives. Many of those people stay here on the board to help others. Do not feel that you have failed b/c this has not been a one-person R. It takes two to make a R. You have tried.

It does not work for you to try to give her the attention NOW that she once wanted. I realize that you may not understand that, but it is what it is. As she said, it is too late now for you to try to be what she once wanted. She would not have those feelings at this time....that she once desired. That is why I kept telling you to detach and drop the rope.

Maybe she has her mind made up......or maybe she is wanting to see if you will go through with the D--or beg her to stay M to you. Perhaps she just wants to see what being single is like. Some depressed people think that their S is causing all their problems so they will ditch the S and their lives will be happier. When she sees that doesn't work.....then she will probably want to go back to you. I can't see her not hanging on and continuing doing exactly what she is doing now......but I may be wrong.

Quote:
I feel that she's not bluffing and will actually be hurt when I say that I've given up as well and want a divorce.


Okay, say she is not bluffing. Of course she will be hurt....whatever you do! Don't you get that? You will not be able to do ANYTHING right! She has you over a barrel which ever way you turn. She uses that excuse of "being hurt" all the time. Aren't you getting sick of it?

Quote:
She had said that was one of the two reactions she expected from me when she filed. The other would be I would get so angry that I would be violent (where I have NEVER been violent and only raised my voice less than 5 times in the 12 years we were together). She was totally not expecting that I would want to work on it as she felt I gave up loving her years ago. She said that she thought about withdrawing the divorce when I told her that I wanted to work on it, but said that she was just too afraid of getting hurt again.


Now, read this quote again. Do you see what I am saying? You can't win with her no matter what you do. She has said that herself. The last part of what she said is why I thought she was playing games with you. She is on again.....off again. You can't win. How could you win when dealing with an emotionally unhealty person? I pray that she will seek the help she so despartely needs.

I apologize if my post sounds cold b/c I do not intend for it to be so. I am trying to be realistic with you and hope that you will look at the sticth as so.

Talk later,
Sandi
Sandi

I do sincerely appreciate the candor. A lot of what you said was what my therapist had said relative to challenging, the way she is now, what do I love about her. There isn't much. I do feel sorry for my part of hurting her. Perhaps I'm blinded by love, but I do feel that she did everything she knew or was comfortable to do. As I felt I was as well back then. I see my mistakes now as I'm trying to grow from them. Ironically, I think now some of what she had done I would understand now (I missed some obvious cries for attention - ie Buy me a Rose lyrics in a card).

I'm actually been toying with Coach's thought of being friends with a WAW. I was adamantly against it originally, but after reading Coach's post, its making me think. I know a D doesn't have to mean the end. Even my wife brought that up about a month before she moved out. She said divorced people have gotten back together.

I have a lot to think about but I'm really getting tired (didn't sleep last nite because of the call).

I do feel so sorry for what I've done and for her. I've appologized more than enough. I know that. I also sorry for what we've done to our sons lives.

I must survive to thrive for me and my boys. I have a lot to think about

Thank you for all your sharing. It means a lot to me to know there are people like you on this board who cares enough and takes the time to help people in their weakest moments.

Thank you
Originally Posted By: sandi2
However, at the risk of sounding down right cruel I have to say that she sounds very whinny and complains all the time and lays all the guilt at your feet without her accepting any responsibility of the breakdown of the marriage.


When she goes on about still feeling hurt and not being able to trust me anymore, she isn't whinny, or at least how I percieve as whinny, she is usually crying and I feel the hurt/sadness/disappointment from her. Perhaps she has done such a good job of laying on the guilt or that I'm blinded by love, or what, but I do accept my share of the responsibility of treating her cruelly by making her feel unlovable.

I know she doesn't accept any of the responsibility of the breakdown of the marriage. At one point I challenged her on that and she had said that she did everything that she knew to do. She got us to marriage counselling, she tried to make changes (i.e. weight loss, hair, sex, etc.) but she said that I didn't get it and she didn't know how to get through to me. She had read countless number of books (she filled 6 milk crates full when she packed up to move out) She felt that I had given up and stopped loving her many years ago. Looking back, I see how she felt that way.

Along the way, I had gotten so focus on giving her things, I forgot to give her myself. I felt I had to shoulder all the burden and responsibilities of provide for the family, I forgot that I had a fully capable, wonder wife that wanted to walk with me. Instead, I constantly left her by the road side.

She had kept my love tanks filled all these years while hers went empty and starving.

The part that she owned is that she couldn't tell me I didn't know how bad it was. Remember, I am a DAM, so I didn't hear/understand what she was trying to tell me. Perhaps I didn't want to hear/understand it as I didn't want to believe it. I don't know what it is. Our marriage counselor (the new one, who is also my therapist) said that she should have taken it to the point of locking me in a room and talking/yelling until I understood. Clearly I understand now and want to work on it. I guess that's her part. Part of what also tears me up, is why should she have had to do that. She didn't, but she shouldn't have had to. Why didn't I know? The signs/messages were there. I see that now. Why didn't I see them back then.

So do I see how she was hurt and am I sorry. Absolutely. Do I feel like it's all my fault, at times I do but I know that's not entirely true. I guess one of the things to my own recovery is to forgive myself first.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
That is not to say that I don't feel sorry for what her dad did to her or any of the pain she has suffered, however, she is not a forgiving person (as you said) and hangs onto the hurt/anger and does not let it go. When there has been trouble in a MR, there has to be forgiveness!


We had talked about forgiveness a while back, when we were still sleeping in the same bed. I had told her that I couldn't believe that the woman I love and not find it in her heart to forgive me. She said that she did forgive me but couldn't trust me with her heart again. The analogy she used if someone killed a loved one, she could forgive that person, but would never trust that person again. I was really taken back by her analogy, but I think that was how she felt. All the years with me, she felt that I killed a part of her. The part that was a loving spouse who gave me all her heart.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Even if she went back home, I bet she would whine and complain and carry on all the time about this same stuff that she is doing now. I don't see her letting it go and moving on with life! She may be depressed and probably has been for years.


Personally, IF (a BIG IF) she comes back, she wouldn't whine or complain, I think she would be constantly scared and walking on eggshells. The nite she moved into the spare bedroom, we had talked about letting go. I had told her that if she can't let go to give us another chance, I do lover her enough that I want her to let go so she would at least be able to have a chance to be happy and move on with her life.

I think she is depressed as well. Most people would be. She was a very sheltered person and really didn't know how to deal with all this pain and hurt that was, according to her, most of our marriage. She bottled it up and was afraid to say anything, worried that I would leave her. She didn't have enough confidence, nor did she realize how much I truly loved her. I can imagine that she is depressed as well as she doesn't want to wind up like her mother. Never moving on and waited over a decade for her husband to come back. She also saw how her mother took her Dad back a couple of times, only to be hurt again. I think that's why she is so hell bent on moving the divorce forward, as she doesn't want to be like her mother.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Where does that put you? You see, you are always talking about what she says or feels.....but what about YOU? How do you feel about a future with her.....honestly? I don't mean what you WISH would happen in the future, but knowing her like you do......where does it put you in the future? Would you really be happy with a person like her that is always brow-beating you about how unhappy you have made her....but she never does anything to help herself? What has she done in all of this to actually help herself? I see you going to the therapist and doing other things to try to change for the better, but what is she doing? All I see is her crying on your shoulder and telling you what a miserable life she has had. You are her scape goat! How will you ever have any self esteem yourself living with a person like her? She will keep you so pulled down that you can't see sunshine.


I don't want to believe this will be true, but it is something in the back of my mind. Will I be walking on eggshells around her for the rest of my life? Afraid that the slightest mistake will put her back into a tailspin? Do I want that for her? I don't think that she will pull me down, but I think I will do it to myself. I will be constantly monitoring, second guessing, etc. But that's the part of DB/DR where I need to work on myself so I can forgive myself and have confidence that I can/have learned from mistakes. And it will be ok to slip up, as long as I recognize and continue to grow and learn from them.

I do want her back because I see now how hard she has tried over the years while I took it all for granted as I thought everything was fine because I was happy. It was incredibly selfish of me. I knew there were things that she wasn't happy about, but just didn't know to the extent of how bad it was eating her up. I wound up trivalizing them in my mind as I didn't know how important they were to her.

I think that's part of getting of her that she's been dropping on me. I guess part of me is saying why didn't she tell me, but another part of me is why didn't I know. Wouldn't most "normal" people have known?

Originally Posted By: sandi2
It may be the very thing for her to find out what she really wants to do with her life and who she wants to spend it with.


The sad part about it was that she had thought she wanted to spend it with me, but she said I took all her love and just threw it away while I chipped away her love for me by being so mean.

I do feel sad/pity for my wife and my boys. I feel sorry that my wife feels like her dreams of "happily ever after" have been crushed/stolen from her. I feel sorry for what my boys are going through. I am angry with myself for not getting it. I know that is all a bad combination, but I'm trying to work through all that with my therapist. Forgiving myself......
Just breaking up my post as it was getting very long...

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I don't mean to be offensive and I hope you understand that part. I am just saying that it sounds like it would be a very unhealty R to stay with her as she is now. She needs to understand how much she needs help......and to go get it for herself. She needs to stop expecting somebody else to "make" her happy.....especially you! Do I make sense or am I talking in circles? I realize that it is very easy from my end to give out this advise and not have to travel the path. All I can do is throw it out there and you take it or leave it. My personal thoughts about it all is that there may be "hope" after a D, but I don't see a lot of it now. In time, she may come to see how wrong SHE has been in all of this--and other relationships as well. Hopefully, she will seek out the therapy she needs and mentally and emotionally heals to a much stronger person.


I do appreciate the frank, honest assessment. My therapist and friends have said soemthing very similar. It is hard to hear, but it takes true friends to tell you things that are very important, even if they are what you want to hear. Thank you


Originally Posted By: sandi2
In the meantime, you need to think about you and your sons. You need to get a real life for yourself. You know what you will have to do in order to accomplish that, don't you? That means that after the D she cannot continue to hang onto you and whine and cry and blame you with all her sadness. I will bet you that is exactly what she will do after the D b/c that is who and what she is! It is up to you if you want her to drag you down with her or if you decide that it is more healthy to back away and detach from her......drop the rope.....and consentrate on your life and your sons. As I told you almost in the beginning.....I think both of you are co-dependent on each other and I don't see this as a healthy relationship.


I had been hanging on and hoping for hope because of my boys. Perhaps you are right, the best thing for them may be for me to truly drop the rope and get a life for myself. I need to be in a position to decide how she will be in it.

I need to get back focused on working on myself. There is not a marriage or relationship right now with my wife to be worked on. I have to accept the brutal facts as all that is gone now. I can work on myself and the relationship I have with my boys.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Whatever happens, you will still have us here to try to encourage you along the way. There are many, many people here on the board whose M's did not make it......but THEY made it. See the difference? This board is about helping people through a really bad time but coming out as a whole person and being stronger and getting on with their lives. Many of those people stay here on the board to help others. Do not feel that you have failed b/c this has not been a one-person R. It takes two to make a R. You have tried.


I do appreciate all the support, encouragement and 2x4's that I get from the people on this board. It really amazes me. I do not believe I would have a chance to make it without the people on this board. Thank you so much.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
It does not work for you to try to give her the attention NOW that she once wanted. I realize that you may not understand that, but it is what it is. As she said, it is too late now for you to try to be what she once wanted. She would not have those feelings at this time....that she once desired. That is why I kept telling you to detach and drop the rope.



I know detaching and dropping the rope is what I need to do. It is hard and I really struggle to find the strength to do that. I know I can frustrate many people on this board as everyone has been telling me the same thing of what to do but I just can't do it. I keep slipping back. That's where the 2x4's really do help. They prop me back up and help support my walls to get them straight and strong again.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Maybe she has her mind made up......or maybe she is wanting to see if you will go through with the D--or beg her to stay M to you. Perhaps she just wants to see what being single is like. Some depressed people think that their S is causing all their problems so they will ditch the S and their lives will be happier. When she sees that doesn't work.....then she will probably want to go back to you. I can't see her not hanging on and continuing doing exactly what she is doing now......but I may be wrong.


I guess the only person who knows all that besides her, and I have some doubts whether she really knows what she wants, is GOD.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Okay, say she is not bluffing. Of course she will be hurt....whatever you do! Don't you get that? You will not be able to do ANYTHING right! She has you over a barrel which ever way you turn. She uses that excuse of "being hurt" all the time. Aren't you getting sick of it?

Quote:
She had said that was one of the two reactions she expected from me when she filed. The other would be I would get so angry that I would be violent (where I have NEVER been violent and only raised my voice less than 5 times in the 12 years we were together). She was totally not expecting that I would want to work on it as she felt I gave up loving her years ago. She said that she thought about withdrawing the divorce when I told her that I wanted to work on it, but said that she was just too afraid of getting hurt again.


Now, read this quote again. Do you see what I am saying? You can't win with her no matter what you do. She has said that herself. The last part of what she said is why I thought she was playing games with you. She is on again.....off again. You can't win. How could you win when dealing with an emotionally unhealty person? I pray that she will seek the help she so despartely needs.


I actually started feeling this way a couple of years ago and I called her out on it. I had told her that I felt that no matter what I did, she would find fault. I think that was when I started shutting down/backing away from her because I was getting frustrated. I didn't realize that was what I was doing back then. I see it now and how it added to her hurt and drove us further apart. I didn't take the time nor had to skills to really work on what the true problem was.

I do now and I guess I must accept the fact that it may be too late.....

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I apologize if my post sounds cold b/c I do not intend for it to be so. I am trying to be realistic with you and hope that you will look at the sticth as so.



Sandi - no appologies are necessary for being a friend that is trying to help someone who is struggling to see the truth. Thank you for caring and being there. It helps to know I am not alone and there are people who will support me.

Take care
Unfortunately, I see a lot of similiarities in your Sitch w mine and my X. YOU cant force someone to CHANGE or WORK on themselves. YOU CANT force someone to FORGIVE. We all have FREE WILL. Until she chooses to FORGIVE and MOVE ON for herself she will be STUCK. I DONT see her doing this for awhile. She is still in DENIAL. She is living in a fantasy world. I think it's time you wake her up. I think you should write her a letter saying everything you just said. Stress how you were BLIND and DIDNT GET IT. Then say, but you understand her feelings and how you cant have a future together if she doesnt TRUST YOU and work towards FORGIVENESS. I think it's time you called her bluff and be prepared for it to go all the way which doesnt mean you won't end up together. I just dont see her making any movements either way while "stuck" in her holding pattern.

I could be completely wrong and may be told Im stupid for suggesting it, but I cant stop how I feel after following this story from the beginning. Like I said I can relate to a lot of the same issues. Although, my WAXW had an OM that she never even admitted that was just a close friend. Even though they are now outwardly dating after our D. Hopefully, you are NOT dealing w an OM, but you might still be surprised later in one form or another.

PATIENCE is definitely a virture and requirement when in DB mode.

But I dont see time being a factor with her in her current "stuck" mindset. She might want you to FIGHT for her. Like Sandi said, she's not exhibiting the "typical" WAS behavior. I could be wrong and she might eventually come around in a year or so, but I dont see her working on her FORGIVENESS and TRUST issues. Until she does then nothing CAN HAPPEN.

God Speed. PMA
Originally Posted By: stuck808
I think what sandi means by calling her bluff isn't to be the first one to sign the papers. Just do what you're supposed to have been doing all this time...GAL.

Right now every interaction you have is with your W and how you should act or not act around her. And she calls ALOT! So, you need to detach more. More meaning not to let her suck you into her way of confusion.



Stuck - that makes more sense to me. I had been down trying to go down that path, but the phone call from 2.5 weeks ago really pulled me off the path. That was the first one since she moved out where she called to say that she still felt hurts and knows that she needs to see a therapist to move on before we could go back to counseling. It gave me hope. I see it was false hope.

Originally Posted By: stuck808
There is no "hurt". Because if it was that bad, then she wouldn't be calling you to begin with.



I do think there really is hurt. I'm afraid that part of her call on Sunday was to try and make it hurt less by creating closure by telling me again that she doesn't want to be my wife as she can't trust me to be vulnerable again. When we chatted lightly yesterday, I had mentioned that I didn't get much sleep after the conversation. She said that she slept ok (I interpret that as a sense of relief) but said that she looked crappy from crying so much.

The part that adds to my sadness is that I think she is calling me because she know's I'm hurt and still genuinely cares about how I am doing. She wants me to be good as she still cares and seems to have feelings for me as a person, friend, father of the boys. Just is afraid to allow herself to have feelings for me as a husband.

This is the healing that I think she needs to go through. To be able to trust someone again with her heart. Not because she is waiting for me to come back (like her mom did with her dad), but because the hurt/pain was so great, she doesn't want to experience it again.

I still believe that she didn't want to hurt me or the boys. It's just that the pain was to great for her to bear. I pushed her past the limit and she is broken emotionally. As I am now. We both wanted happily ever after. I thought I had it, at the expense of her's. Now neither one of us have it. I want her to have it because she is very important to me, but she doesn't want it from me. I want to have it and know that I can find it. I just have to find the strength to do it.

Originally Posted By: stuck808
Trust you with what? She trusts you with the kids, she trusts calling you, for god's sake, she trusted you touching her before she left. She has no idea how a "wife should love her husband" because she doesn't know. It probably stems back to her childhood where her mom was waiting for her dad to come home all those years. She was probably waiting too and was expecting him to be this perfect Prince Charming to her mom. Well she's looking for that in you and no one can ever live to such a high expectation.


She actually had said much of that when we talked on Sunday. She said that she trust me with the kids and knows that I am and will always be a great dad. She says that even now when I touch her (I stopped trying to hug her a long time ago, but I do non-sexual touches when we are together), she just says that she doesn't feel anything. She said that when I used to touch her in bed, pre-bomb, she would be ready instantly. The same as when I used to put my arm around her or held her hand. Unfortunately, I did all of that less and less as I got focused on the things, than the moments. She wanted me to do those things more often, rather than just providing things.

She said I did all of these things when we dated but shortly after we got married, I started doing it less and less. I was her Prince Charming but I turned into an emotionless ogre.

I think the high expectation she has of me know is just her sensitivity to being hurt again. Even before she moved out, I had noticed how "jumpy" she was when certain things would happen. I had asked her about that and she said that in the past I would over react and make her feel worthless when she did something that she felt that I didn't approve. She wasn't used to how I was accepting and didn't get mad/upset about things being very rigid.

My therapist says that was part of the mild depression I was struggling with. As I had issues dealing with stress so I shut down emotionally, any deviation from the norm resulted in an overreaction. I never hit or yelled at her, but she felt that I would put her down and make her feel worthless and that I didn't love her.


Originally Posted By: stuck808
The only reason I think it's an MLC is because according to the research, that's the time when men and women re-evaluate their lives and even come to grips with un-resolved issues in their childhood.

During that period, they get emotional (cry, angry, depressed, etc.) because they don't understand what's going on inside them. Think of a teenager. Some have a ton of angst, others are passive, while others discover what their limits are. It's the same way with MLC and I see your W going through all that.

Fact is you can't analyze her because she doesn't understand herself. Only thing you can do is hold on while she goes through this journey alone. You can, however, gently guide her in the right direction if you do it in the right way.

Sandi's been great at helping me with that.


I know all I can do is try to guide her to heal herself. I can't do it for her. It's an interesting dilemma as I know I can add to her hurt, but can't do anything to remove it. I want to go through this journey with her, but know I can't. That's where I do feel powerless at times.

This is where I, since reading Coach's thought of being friends with a WAS, have been rethinking my position on that. I do love my wife. I do want what's best for her. Isn't that the key elements of being a friend. The connundrum is how do I deal with what's she's doing now? I know a friend would not do something as hurtful as what's she's doing to our family. However, the compassion piece is that I feel she doesn't want to hurt us, it's just that the pain/hurt was too much to bear.

I know I need to detach, drop the rope and get a life so I will be the best for me and the boys.

But what to do about my WAS? Do I love her enough that I can be a friend.....
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
Unfortunately, I see a lot of similiarities in your Sitch w mine and my X. YOU cant force someone to CHANGE or WORK on themselves. YOU CANT force someone to FORGIVE. We all have FREE WILL. Until she chooses to FORGIVE and MOVE ON for herself she will be STUCK. I DONT see her doing this for awhile. She is still in DENIAL. She is living in a fantasy world. I think it's time you wake her up. I think you should write her a letter saying everything you just said. Stress how you were BLIND and DIDNT GET IT. Then say, but you understand her feelings and how you cant have a future together if she doesnt TRUST YOU and work towards FORGIVENESS. I think it's time you called her bluff and be prepared for it to go all the way which doesnt mean you won't end up together. I just dont see her making any movements either way while "stuck" in her holding pattern.

I could be completely wrong and may be told Im stupid for suggesting it, but I cant stop how I feel after following this story from the beginning. Like I said I can relate to a lot of the same issues. Although, my WAXW had an OM that she never even admitted that was just a close friend. Even though they are now outwardly dating after our D. Hopefully, you are NOT dealing w an OM, but you might still be surprised later in one form or another.

PATIENCE is definitely a virture and requirement when in DB mode.



PMA_Baby,

Thanks for your insights. I still don't believe there is someone else in my situation, but I can never be 100% certain. I hope that if I am surprised in the future, I will be stronger at that point so it will not derail me.

I don't see her forgiving and do know that in the case with her dad and sister, neither one of them tried to get her to forgive. Neither one of them made an attempt to re-establish the trust or relationship. At least not for about 15 years. Her sister had talked about it over the last 2 years, but haven't made any effort to do so, nor has my wife.

Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
But I dont see time being a factor with her in her current "stuck" mindset. She might want you to FIGHT for her. Like Sandi said, she's not exhibiting the "typical" WAS behavior. I could be wrong and she might eventually come around in a year or so, but I dont see her working on her FORGIVENESS and TRUST issues. Until she does then nothing CAN HAPPEN.



In your situation, did you try and FIGHT for your wife? And what do you mean FIGHT for your wife?

I think to prepare to fight for my wife, I need to get a life, detach, drop the rope, re-establish confidence and forgive myself. I'm trying to do these things. It is a struggle and I definitely have my ups and downs, as well as progress with backslides. I am starting to feel like I'm beginning to recover from my latest backslide/funk. I'm feeling a little better and will take my therapist's suggestion of focusing on a short term goal of having a great time with my boys and making sure nothing about this situation prevents me from enjoying that time.

So, what does fighting for my wife mean?

I'm toying with the friendship (Coach started an interesting thread on this) piece of it but not sure if that's what you mean by fight.

Or is it courting/wooing her, not a high speed pursuit, but a stealthy pursuit.

Any thoughts? I know this is so anti-DB/DR but my wife is really confusing as she doesn't exhibit the "typical" WAW behaviors.
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
So, what does fighting for my wife mean?


Good questions. What does "Fighting" mean?

Lots of things:

- Deciding no matter what that you are going to fight for your marriage

- Ignoring the words and focusing on his/her actions

- Ignoring family/friends telling you to give up. It's over!

- Putting your kids welfare first no matter what. "Fighting" for their STABILITY and SAFETY.

- "Fighting" your own PRIDE. Not letting resentment or hurt get in the way of your main GOAL of getting your WAS back.

- Not being afraid to EXPOSE the affair. She got mad when I first spoke with my family and her sister about it so I backed off. Should have got evidence and gone to her Insurance agency Director and tell him what this SOB of a mentor was up to. Convinced myself that it didnt matter anyway. That if she didnt want to be with me then it would be some OM. Not true. Should have EXPOSED. Although, because I was NICE and DBing she didnt fight for support and we both have Joint Physical Custody which is better for our D3.5.

Looking back at my M. Did I fight? Yes. Did I fight as hard as I could? I'm not sure. At some point I think I let my pride get the best of me.
Fine she is not going to admit that she is having an affair. Forget it!
Fine she is not going to take any responsibility for our marriage being broken. Fine forget it!
Fine. She doesnt want to be with me. Fine forget it!

I can look back and know that I fought for my M. I tried being nice for the first year and DB my heart out, but when she continued the A w OM and didnt want to take on any of the responsibilities that we both had acquired (bought 6 rental properties. Signed 7 30 yr mortgages. She didnt want to deal with them anymore. Wanted me to take on all the responsibility. She wanted to focus on her new insurance business that she had started and was being mentored by her OM. Who, ofcourse, when questioned, was just a friend.) So yeah, eventually, I gave in and stopped taking on everything in order to save the M. I stopped ENABLING. stopped her CAKE-EATING. She just got meaner. Was used to me being a DOORMAT - Duh!!

Anyway, I digress. This is what I mean "FIGHTING FOR YOUR M".

PMA
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
So, what does fighting for my wife mean?


Good questions. What does "Fighting" mean?

Lots of things:

- Deciding no matter what that you are going to fight for your marriage

- Ignoring the words and focusing on his/her actions

- Ignoring family/friends telling you to give up. It's over!

- Putting your kids welfare first no matter what. "Fighting" for their STABILITY and SAFETY.

- "Fighting" your own PRIDE. Not letting resentment or hurt get in the way of your main GOAL of getting your WAS back.

- Not being afraid to EXPOSE the affair. She got mad when I first spoke with my family and her sister about it so I backed off. Should have got evidence and gone to her Insurance agency Director and tell him what this SOB of a mentor was up to. Convinced myself that it didnt matter anyway. That if she didnt want to be with me then it would be some OM. Not true. Should have EXPOSED. Although, because I was NICE and DBing she didnt fight for support and we both have Joint Physical Custody which is better for our D3.5.

Looking back at my M. Did I fight? Yes. Did I fight as hard as I could? I'm not sure. At some point I think I let my pride get the best of me.
Fine she is not going to admit that she is having an affair. Forget it!
Fine she is not going to take any responsibility for our marriage being broken. Fine forget it!
Fine. She doesnt want to be with me. Fine forget it!

I can look back and know that I fought for my M. I tried being nice for the first year and DB my heart out, but when she continued the A w OM and didnt want to take on any of the responsibilities that we both had acquired (bought 6 rental properties. Signed 7 30 yr mortgages. She didnt want to deal with them anymore. Wanted me to take on all the responsibility. She wanted to focus on her new insurance business that she had started and was being mentored by her OM. Who, ofcourse, when questioned, was just a friend.) So yeah, eventually, I gave in and stopped taking on everything in order to save the M. I stopped ENABLING. stopped her CAKE-EATING. She just got meaner. Was used to me being a DOORMAT - Duh!!

Anyway, I digress. This is what I mean "FIGHTING FOR YOUR M".

PMA


PMA_Baby!

Thanks for the quick response. I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I am glad that you have continued to stay on to help others.

So I guess in my case, what is fighting for my wife?

Seems like the first few bullets is stepping up to not give up. I know I've sounded like I was wallowing/waffling on continue to try. I know in my heart, that if I do give up and stop trying, I will never be able to look my kids in the eyes knowing that I did not do everything I could to bring our family back together. I don't know how she does it knowing that she gave up, but I imagine her coping skills is making her shift the blame entirely on me. That she did everything that she could and that I didn't step up.

So now that she sees that I've stepped up and working on it, I'm taking that excuse away. Maybe that's why she keeps trying to guilt/blame me. Who knows why she keeps calling. I know I can't waste my energy trying to find out.

I do have to figure out how I respond/react when she does.

I guess this is where fighting for my own pride/boundaries comes in and perhaps even fighting my fear of exposing her lack of letting go of the hurt and/or forgiveness. In the back of my mind though, I think she knows that she's not letting go or doesn't know how (at least that's what she said in the phone call 2.5 weeks ago that started me in this backslide). Again, she just not doing anything about trying to let go of the hurt.

So if she's not going to let go of the hurt, just as she has done before with her dad and her sister, then what??!?!

Do I continue the fight to show her that I have really changed? I know the best way to do that is exactly that, just do it. Don't talk to her about it. Do it. Live it.

Unfortunately, the changes I've been trying to make is diametrically opposed to the DB/DR Dark/Dim (sorry Sandi) approach. Of course, I had shown her all those changes and she still moved out. I thought it was because it was too much for her to deal with so she needed her time/space to sort it out. As well as possibly escape it when she feels it was too much. I don't know, but this has been my connundrum since she moved out. Do I continue with my 180 and show her that I have changed and am attentive and loving or do I go Dark (as suggested by DB/DR, my coach as well as my therapist)?

I had tried Dark and the responses that I had gotten was that I was mean/cold. I tried to adjust my approach of being warm and attentive when we are together as a family (which we have had a lot of over the last 2 weeks - 5 days) but still Dark (just business) when she calls/emails/text about tactical matters. When she calls all upset/emotional, I made myself emotionally there for her. Now it seems I have done that at the expense of my own hurt (allowing for hope). I guess I wasn't giving (emotional support) without expecting anything in return (hope). I guess this is where the detachment and dropping the rope comes in.

So in my fight for my wife, does that include being there as a friend for her? Even as she is hurting me and our boys. Do I have the strength, love and compassion to do that? Without expecting that she will come back to me as my wife? Is that the next battle front to this fight in my situation? Does that make any sense?
I don't doubt that she was hurt in the past, but there comes a point where if you want to grow and move on as an ADULT, then you learn how to forgive. Period.

Not only is she not dealing with her hurt herself, she calls you to remind you how much you hurt her. That's not dealing with it. That's just projecting her undealt feelings onto you.

That stuff about you growing emotionally distant over time is what everyone goes through. It's called marriage. It happens to even the best couples.

Don't continue to beat yourself over it. You're still hanging onto the fact that she doesn't believe in YOUR changes because she keeps telling you that. It shouldn't matter what she thinks. You know they're real, that's all that matters. When she keeps hitting you with that fact, just shrug your shoulders and say "I know they're real" and end it.

She comes up with new excuses/reasons why she hasn't gone to therapy or C. It seems like she prefers to blame everything on you and not take any responsibility. Just remember, it takes two. She might have tried to give you "hints" in the past, but let's face it - women don't understand men as much as men don't understand women. We actually had to learn that going through our own messes.

It's like my W. She keeps telling me that she has low self-esteem. so her solution is to dump her old life which she believes was a mistake and start a new one alone. WTH? When you have low self-esteem, you build on what you have and grow stronger, not tear everything down and start with nothing. That's a typical MLC response.

You have got to stop living in the past like your W. She is keeping you there. Do you believe you are a stronger and better person than before? If so, then great! You know that and that's all that matters.

Let her stay in the past if she wants to. You can't make her budge from it. Still be nice to her, invite her to things if you wish (just not to everything). Maybe (very lightly) flirt with her to keep things light since she wants you to "pursue" her, just not overdo it.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
I don't doubt that she was hurt in the past, but there comes a point where if you want to grow and move on as an ADULT, then you learn how to forgive. Period.

Not only is she not dealing with her hurt herself, she calls you to remind you how much you hurt her. That's not dealing with it. That's just projecting her undealt feelings onto you.



I do agree there has to come to a point in time where you grow and move on. I think they way she moves on is that she shuts them out. That's what she did to her dad and sister and keeps them both at arms length.

I think the big reason for the call on Sunday nite was a follow up to the one in the morning about my 7 year old and what I said about our home (I know it was a mistake). I think what drove the further emotion was her realization of how if I had signed the papers when I was served, the marriage would have been dissolved as of that Sunday. I have told her that I wasn't going to sign them (she had already signed them when she filed) as my feelings about us haven't changed.

Originally Posted By: stuck808
Don't continue to beat yourself over it. You're still hanging onto the fact that she doesn't believe in YOUR changes because she keeps telling you that. It shouldn't matter what she thinks. You know they're real, that's all that matters. When she keeps hitting you with that fact, just shrug your shoulders and say "I know they're real" and end it.


The frustrating part of my changes and her is that even on Sunday, she said that she see's how I've changed and feels that I am a better, well rounded, person now that even when we first started dating. Where I get frustrated is that she then jumps into how she's been hurt and doesn't trust being vulnerable with me, which is why she doesn't want to be my wife anymore. So in a sense, she's acknowledged that they are their, but it doesn't matter. Very frustrating.


Originally Posted By: stuck808
She comes up with new excuses/reasons why she hasn't gone to therapy or C. It seems like she prefers to blame everything on you and not take any responsibility. Just remember, it takes two. She might have tried to give you "hints" in the past, but let's face it - women don't understand men as much as men don't understand women. We actually had to learn that going through our own messes.

It's like my W. She keeps telling me that she has low self-esteem. so her solution is to dump her old life which she believes was a mistake and start a new one alone. WTH? When you have low self-esteem, you build on what you have and grow stronger, not tear everything down and start with nothing. That's a typical MLC response.


I am sorry to hear about your situation and where it's at. It is very frustating for all of us how our stories are so similar. I was in my small group session last Sunday after church and the two women there were talking about how they were "Compliant" (from the book Boundaries) so they never spoke up about their boundaries and just built up resentment. I jumped over both of them and said why the heck didn't they speak up. I told them my story how mine didn't but if she had made it clear to me, I would have done anything for her. Instead, I went along fat dumb and happy while she just built up so much resentment that she filed for divorce and moved out (which was also their stories). Of course I had to watch my language as this was a small group in church....

Originally Posted By: stuck808
You have got to stop living in the past like your W. She is keeping you there. Do you believe you are a stronger and better person than before? If so, then great! You know that and that's all that matters.

Let her stay in the past if she wants to. You can't make her budge from it. Still be nice to her, invite her to things if you wish (just not to everything). Maybe (very lightly) flirt with her to keep things light since she wants you to "pursue" her, just not overdo it.


I think I'm starting to formulate my plan to adjust my approach with her. I'm not going to give up, but know I need to prepare my life without her, as painful as that will make me feel. I'm still going to honor my vow of love, honor and cherish, so I'm not talking about going out to find a woman, but know that day may come when we are officially divorced and I need to make sure I am doing everything not just for my boys but me as well. If that woman in the future is my wife, even better, if not, I will survive and thrive.

I'm slowly digging myself out of this funk.

Thanks for your support and I hope you all the best in yours as well.
Well here's the plan that I'm working, I started it yesterday, but I'm fine tuning.

To be upfront, I am at grips with the fact that there is no hope to save the marriage. I know we will get divorced. Right now she is not going to change her mind nor is she doing anything to work on herself to let go of her hurt to try to forgive and give us another chance. I know that and am facing that brutal reality heads on.

I am preparing myself to a life without her. I will not be alone as I will have my sons at least 50% of the time and I will figure out financially how to best provide for them - even after she hits me for the $2500/month child support that she will get according to the formula in our state (no fighting it according to my lawyer, as well as a second lawyer I consulted). Crazy as if I gave her full custody, it would only increase to $3000. I make about 50% more than her, but the math still doesnt work in my mind. Go figure.

Anyway, I'm still working through my strategy of letting her initiate contact. When she calls now, like the last two nites for me to say good nite to the kids, I will chat with her. Namely asking her how she is and how her day was going (for example, yesterday, her company was getting audited this week so I know how hectic that is, so I ask how the audit was going). I don't try to pry into anything deeper than things like that. Tonite she said her stomach was bothering her like it was cramps, but she just had them 2 weeks ago so it was way too early. So I tried to show concern and caring that she wasn't feeling well. I will do this after I talk to the boys.

I will then also be the one to end the call with a closing of good nite or we'll chat later (before I would just say bye or if I was done talking with the boys, I would just hang up, unless she jumped on the phone).

Perhaps this is a warmer form of DIM but felt I needed to change something to what I was doing. It didn't feel like it was working. Some people will may think that since she was contacting/calling almost daily, that it was a good thing, but I got the sense she was getting more frustrated/fed up with what I was doing more than her pursuing. I know many will say that they will welcome having their WAS call them, but this wasn't the type of call or tone that I thought was healthy.

Another thing I am going to do is focus on a goal that when I have the boys I will not be thinking about how she is not there and we are incomplete. We are complete now. The boys and us are the new us, at least until a Mrs CIPA joins us, wether it is their mom or someone new. There will be no missing of mom.

It still hurts me. I'm not going to lie about that. I am still sad and struggling, but can't wallow in the self pity or the hurt.

The next thing that I need to work on for me is to forgive myself for what I've done to lead us to this disaster. This is the hardest part for me as every time I see my boys, I'm reminded of what it could have been vs. what it is. My friends tonite gave me the analogy of how it was like I was playing basketball with my boys with my favorite basketball. If we lost the ball, would I just stand there waiting and pinning over how I lost the ball and waiting for the ball to come back while the boys are wanting to play basketball. Or would I go out and find a new ball, even though it may not be my old ball. It could be better or worse, but we will continue to play ball and enjoy our lives. A weird sort of analogy, but it made sense to me.

If the boys do miss their mom, I will be supportive and understanding, but feel like I was too enabling or condoning of that feeling. I want my boys to know it is alright to be mad/sad or whatever about their mom, but don't want them to think it is what to do all the time. Since I've been so wrapped up on that, I think I've exposed them to too much of it.

When I talk to my friends/family, I will wean myself off of talking about my situation or my wife. The last two nites, when I've talked to my friends/family, I will try to close the call with general chit chat about other things that are more upbeat or asking about what's going on with them. This is part of my get a life strategy shift.

When I see my wife I will continue to be upbeat, positive, caring and attentive (so she can continue to see what she will be missing). I am focusing on the approach of I love her enough to let her feel free to do what she wants. While I may not agree with what she is doing, I will not stand in her way. I may not help it either (i.e. sign the divorce papers so it will be over right away).

I'm still struggling whether I can be a good friend with my wife. I love my wife that I want her to be my wife, but do I truly love her enough to be her friend? The flip side of it is how can a friend hurt their family like this. That is the connundrum I am struggling with.

Any thoughts on the friends thing or feedback on my strategy is greatly appreciated.


"To be upfront, I am at grips with the fact that there is no hope to save the marriage. I know we will get divorced. Right now she is not going to change her mind nor is she doing anything to work on herself to let go of her hurt to try to forgive and give us another chance. I know that and am facing that brutal reality heads on."

Okay for one thing it's way to early to even think this. The problem with you saying something like this (in your first sentence no less) is that you've given up. So why bother doing all the other things you posted after it?

You haven't really been constructive at doing your own thing since your W left. Concentrate on that to build yourself up again. Once you do that you'll find forgiveness for yourself.

It comes back to this...do you want to save your M or not? There is not gray area. Either you're in it or not. Even when detaching, you can do so with the goal of wanting to save the M.

Have you written any goals in terms of DB? For example, W will initiate a friendly conversation when I do this. A few of those goals along with your own ones that will help you to detach and GAL are what will get your W back.

You've let your W drag you along her emotional rollercoaster that you're letting her trainwreck turn into yours. Think of it like playing basketball. You see the basket but can't get a clear shot because of all the obstacles in front of it. The defending players are hostile and big, so rather than charging into them head on, you pivot and weave your way around them in order to get to the basket. If one play doesn't work, then you switch it up and do something else. You just have to give a play a chance and not think of forfeiting the game because the other players are too tough.

At this point, you can still ask W to join you and the boys for dinner when you're together at one of their games. If she doesn't want to go, then hey, no biggie. I think maybe you need to give her a little of the "chase" that she's been asking for, but not too much that it becomes pursuing. It can start out as being polite, then move into something more. Establish your friendship with her first to earn her trust, then bump up the intimacy each time. Very slowly.

It comes back down to what you want.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
"To be upfront, I am at grips with the fact that there is no hope to save the marriage. I know we will get divorced. Right now she is not going to change her mind nor is she doing anything to work on herself to let go of her hurt to try to forgive and give us another chance. I know that and am facing that brutal reality heads on."

Okay for one thing it's way to early to even think this. The problem with you saying something like this (in your first sentence no less) is that you've given up. So why bother doing all the other things you posted after it?

You haven't really been constructive at doing your own thing since your W left. Concentrate on that to build yourself up again. Once you do that you'll find forgiveness for yourself.


Stuck,

Thanks for pointing that out to me. I didn't mean to imply that I was giving up. I meant to imply that I am not counting on it. I am trying to be realistic, but remaining optimistic. I'm not changing what I want. I want my wife back. I want my family back. I don't want my old marriage back as that was not healthy for any of us, but what a new one can potentially bring with a changed me.

So I'm doing the thing I mentioned afterwards not just to try and build a new marriage/life with my wife. I'm doing them with the approach of with or without my wife, doing those things will lead to a better life than where I'm currently at and potentially even where we were pre-bomb.

I really struggle with forgiving myself. What she said last nite was no different from what she said the nite of the bomb or even a couple of times up to the point where she moved out. I had been trying to figure out why I was so down. Between last nite and today, I came to the realization that I can't forgive myself is why. I'm going to talk to my therapist on this when I see her on Monday. I can forgive myself for what I've done that resulted in hurt to myself. I am struggling with forgiving myself for the hurt that I've caused my wife. I am not even close to even considering forgiving myself for what the part that I played that hurt my boys.

Originally Posted By: stuck808
It comes back to this...do you want to save your M or not? There is not gray area. Either you're in it or not. Even when detaching, you can do so with the goal of wanting to save the M.

Have you written any goals in terms of DB? For example, W will initiate a friendly conversation when I do this. A few of those goals along with your own ones that will help you to detach and GAL are what will get your W back.

You've let your W drag you along her emotional rollercoaster that you're letting her trainwreck turn into yours. Think of it like playing basketball. You see the basket but can't get a clear shot because of all the obstacles in front of it. The defending players are hostile and big, so rather than charging into them head on, you pivot and weave your way around them in order to get to the basket. If one play doesn't work, then you switch it up and do something else. You just have to give a play a chance and not think of forfeiting the game because the other players are too tough.

At this point, you can still ask W to join you and the boys for dinner when you're together at one of their games. If she doesn't want to go, then hey, no biggie. I think maybe you need to give her a little of the "chase" that she's been asking for, but not too much that it becomes pursuing. It can start out as being polite, then move into something more. Establish your friendship with her first to earn her trust, then bump up the intimacy each time. Very slowly.

It comes back down to what you want.


So I do want to save my marriage and have my wife back with me and the boys, as a family as a friend. That is what I do want. I just am approaching it that if I don't achieve that, I will still be ok.

My short term goal is to enjoy the time when I have the boys so that they will not be exposed/confronted with our situation. Now that doesn't mean that I won't allow them to be sad/angry/hurt about it, but I will not enable it, as I feel like I've exposed them to too much. This goal isn't for my wife, but more for my boys and I.

My other short term goal is to go out to lunch with my wife one on one to chat and enjoy ourselves without talking about the situation. My approach to achieve this goal is to be consistently warm, friendly, caring, upbeat/positive and attentive when we do talk (I'm changing how I was doing Dark/Dim). So when she asks how I am doing (whether it is text/email or call), I will respond with a positive response. In the past, I would not answer or be very vague/mysterious in my response.

My longer term goal is to go out to dinner with my wife, one on one.

I'm not trying to have too many as I'm trying to take baby steps. I think the common ones (i.e. she will call me to chat or ask me how I am etc), she is doing already - which is the odd part which makes her very non traditional WAW like.

Tonite and last nite we've had the friendly chats and in tonite's conversation she asked if I could pick up our 7 year old and meet at the park so we can do dinner like we had in the past. So I thought that was good.

I am trying to establish friendship to re-establish trust, in the hopes of making the leap from friendship to intimacy (as Coach had outlined in his thread on being friends with a WAS). The problem/struggle I have, is do I love her enough or am I confident enough to continue to do that once the divorce is final.

Thanks for checking in one me again. All the support I've gotten the last couple of days is really helping me dig out of the funk that I got dragged into from Sunday nite's call.

I wish you the best in your situation as well.

Quote:
I had been hanging on and hoping for hope because of my boys. Perhaps you are right, the best thing for them may be for me to truly drop the rope and get a life for myself. I need to be in a position to decide how she will be in it.


To be sure you understand "dropping the rope"......it does include your children, by all means. However, the way I see it is that you do NOT decide how she fits into it. The point is that you move "forward and onward" with your life and you do it as though she will never be a part of it again. That is your attitude and your behavior and actions. If you are holding out and think that this is a ploy to get her back.....it will blow up in your face. It has to be done from the heart knowing that it is the best move to make. You do love her, but you give her what she says she wants. You do not fight her about it. If she wants a D, you let her do all the work to get it. If all you have to do is sign your signature, then okay. But no fighting anymore. No hanging on for dear life and no begging and pointing out the good things about M, etc. Let her go. When you do this, it make YOU act completely different. From what people say, you first feel releived from all that junk you were carring around for months. You feel a sense of freedom from that burden and most of all you feel peace. You start making plans for you and the kids. Yes, you may have to still contact her on occassion, but I would put my foot down about any of the co-dependent stuff. She just needs to get to a doctor. But I really meant to point out from your quote that you were still figuring her in the picture of dropping the rope. The point is......YOU DO NOT INCLUDE HER IN THAT PICTURE. If things work out for her to get back in that picture, that is great, but for now you need to make plans as if she is not going to be a part of your life any longer. Then you may have to make a believer out of her. I really hope I am wrong about my gut feeling about her.

You painted a different picture of her after my long post I sent to you, but I took it as a man seeing her through eyes of love. One thing that stands above all else is how you are the one that has been broken and pulled down and has taken a beating from her and then from yourself. You are still beating yourself half to death every day. When are the beatings going to stop? When are you going to forgive yourself? If she says that she might can forgive you but would never be able to trust you again? She just doesn't sound strong enough for any type of man-woman R to me. Anyway, you are the one I am trying to help here and you are very depressed and taking all the blame for what has happened. Okay, so you were deaf and blind to her needs. You cannot go back in time and change things and if she won't give you a chance to make amends now and make a better futute for the two of you......what are you suppose to do the rest of your life? How many time do you have to say you are sorry before it takes? Aren't you about to run out of "I'm sorry's"?

My suggestion for your own self esteem is to go for two weeks without saying you are sorry for anything. You may say you apologize, but don't say you are sorry. There is a big difference. Also, put a stop right now on ever saying you are sorry....again.....for what you have already said over and over for the same thing. That is degrading to yourself. She is robbing you of your self respect. That is one of the reasons I said that I did not think the two of you were very healthy for each other at this time. She doesn't trust you and you are eat up with guilt. You need to stay in therapy and she certainly needs to get help.

Got to get some rest. Talk later.

Sandi
Originally Posted By: sandi2
To be sure you understand "dropping the rope"......it does include your children, by all means. However, the way I see it is that you do NOT decide how she fits into it. The point is that you move "forward and onward" with your life and you do it as though she will never be a part of it again. That is your attitude and your behavior and actions. If you are holding out and think that this is a ploy to get her back.....it will blow up in your face. It has to be done from the heart knowing that it is the best move to make.


Absolutely that my boys are part of my look forward. Right now, it will be three of us. I'm not preparing with the consideration that my wife will be back. When I mean that "I will decide how she fits into it" is, because of the kids, I will need to maintain a co-parenting relationship with her. Right now, I get the sense that she wants/expects to be friends post-Divorce. I am trying to decide if I can be friends with someone who hurts their family by getting Divorced.

I know this is the best move for the boys and I. I can not keep us living in the past nor sitting still. I had, prior to this bomb, always been of the mindset that if you aren't constantly raising the bar, you are burying. I need to dig the bar out of the ground and get it moving

Originally Posted By: sandi2
If all you have to do is sign your signature, then okay. But no fighting anymore. No hanging on for dear life and no begging and pointing out the good things about M, etc. Let her go.


Are you implying that I should sign the divorce papers now? If I don't sign, it will take another 18 months before a divorce decree is issued to dissolve the marriage. I'm going to really have to think about that one....

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Yes, you may have to still contact her on occassion, but I would put my foot down about any of the co-dependent stuff. She just needs to get to a doctor.


Just as a note, she hadn't called all emotionally the last 2 nites. She had done it about 5 times since she moved out 6 weeks ago. However, I have shifted my approach over the last 2 days where in the past, when I would say goodnite to the boys, if she wound up on the phone afterwards (which was typical), I would be relatively short/abrupt in getting off the phone as she starts talking. I would let her go for a minute or two and just say things like "That's too bad" or "You've got to be kidding me" or other shallow things just to acknowledge as she talks about her day. And if she asked about my day, I wouldn't offer much other than it was good, or busy and that would be it. Then I would find a way to get off the phone.

For the last two nites, when she was on the phone, I would try to be very cheerful and ask how her day was going or if she mentioned something about the up coming week, I would follow up and ask how it went. This would happen before the boys got on the phone as well as after. Not sure if that's confusing her or it's settling her in or what. I'm still trying to gauge if this is a good approach.

I do agree about having her see a therapist. I know I can't control her to do that. I doubt if she will, nor will her friends/family push her, as she is able to hide/stuff it most of the time. I had thought about talking about how my therapy is going or just mention that I had gone that day. Sort of trying to keep the thought in front of her. I'm debating how to approach this.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Then you may have to make a believer out of her. I really hope I am wrong about my gut feeling about her.


What do you mean by making her a believer? That I'm preparing for life without her or that I've really changed?

So what is your gut feeling about her? I had thought it was that her mind is made up and she's not allowing herself to let go of her hurt or build any trust to give us a chance. I just want to make sure I got your impression right.... as tough as it may be.....

Originally Posted By: sandi2
You painted a different picture of her after my long post I sent to you, but I took it as a man seeing her through eyes of love. One thing that stands above all else is how you are the one that has been broken and pulled down and has taken a beating from her and then from yourself. You are still beating yourself half to death every day. When are the beatings going to stop? When are you going to forgive yourself?


You are right, I do continue to see her through eyes of love.

What is the difference in the picture of her that I painted?

Pathetically, I feel sorry for her, for the pain that she's felt as she watched her dreams of happily ever after get crushed over the years. I know how painful it is as that's what I've been feelings since she hit me with the bomb. I also feel sorry for her that the hurt is so great, that she feels it is greater than the possibility of trying to achieve it, at least with me. I also see her as a broken woman because of all that pain.

So you are right, I am beating myself up my part that caused that pain. I think the greatest issue for me is the pain that my boys are going through. I know the beatings need to stop. It is not doing anything to raise the bar. This is my challenge - forgiving myself. How do I expect anyone to ever forgive me for this if I can't forgive myself. As a DAM, it had taken me this long to come to this realization.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
How many time do you have to say you are sorry before it takes? Aren't you about to run out of "I'm sorry's"?

My suggestion for your own self esteem is to go for two weeks without saying you are sorry for anything. You may say you apologize, but don't say you are sorry. There is a big difference. Also, put a stop right now on ever saying you are sorry....again.....for what you have already said over and over for the same thing. That is degrading to yourself. She is robbing you of your self respect.


That had actually came up in the conversation on Sunday nite. When she started on the past hurt, I wound up saying that I've appologized for those before and I'm done appologizing for them. I didn't get it then, but I get it know as I've learned from them. She had responded that she wasn't looking for an appology, but she still feels that I don't get her.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
That is one of the reasons I said that I did not think the two of you were very healthy for each other at this time. She doesn't trust you and you are eat up with guilt. You need to stay in therapy and she certainly needs to get help.

Got to get some rest. Talk later.

Sandi



The relationship that we have now is definitely not a healthy one. It wasn't always like this nor is this what I want as a new marriage. The question that comes up in my mind is are we both strong enough to do the work. I'm think I am and am trying to strengthen myself as I work on myself. I think she would be if could find it by letting go of the hurt and be willing to trust. I just don't see that happening any time soon, if ever...

I'm moving forward by giving up the hope and getting her back will be a bonus.

Thanks for your continued support Sandi.
I actually just re-read my last two post and they seem to conflict with each other relative to my hope of saving my marriage. I just wanted to clarify.

I do want my wife back, but am not hopeful that will happen. The closest analogy I can make is like winning the lottery. I do hope to win, but I will not be planning my future based on winning it. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to play.

I will do all the things to make a better future for me and the boys. If I attract my wife back while doing so, that will truly be like winning the lottery for me and the boys. If I don't, we will still be ok.

Does that make sense? Or is it not committed enough so my wife may detect some uncertainty/lack of commitment?
Confused-

I have read all the posts since I was on the BB yesterday. One thing that jumped out to me is your Expectations.

The changes in you are not real until they are changes you make for you, and not so that the W will notice, W will react, or W will do something. She doesn't believe them YET, because they are not real yet.

This is not a put-down. You are getting the DB script, the ideas, and putting them into play. But, it takes a long time to go from understanding and doing them to making them a part of you. Again, not a put-down, just a fact.

I applaud you for being warmer on the phone. People that have been hurt, abandoned, or felt a loss - need their spouses to be
Dim and not Dark. Dark is not always THE solution that applies equally to everyone.

Now lets check out your understanding of nuances.

"I do want my wife back, but am not hopeful that will happen. The closest analogy I can make is like winning the lottery. I do hope to win, but I will not be planning my future based on winning it. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to play."

Nothing happens without hope and 100% commitment. It is a huge risk to walk the rails of the roller coaster and risk the greatest hurt you've ever felt rolling over you, sometimes over and over.

A hunch tells me you are man enough to live in the grey zone vs the B&W zone.

Now for the nuance, you are 100% committed, but the W doesn't know it. She assumes you are already moving on. You will be the calm in the storm for her. She won't know about your commitment to your M and her.

Can you get the nuance and DB, while being realistic it may not work, and still be that committed?
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
This is not a put-down. You are getting the DB script, the ideas, and putting them into play. But, it takes a long time to go from understanding and doing them to making them a part of you. Again, not a put-down, just a fact.


Wifey,

Thanks for taking the time to read all the posts - I know how much time that must have taken ;-) I'm always amazed when I reread my threads how long my posts are. They don't seem that long when I post them. No worries about your feedback. I recognize that people do not take the time and energy to offer feedback as putdowns. I take them as valuable feedback and and cherish the fact that people take their valuable time to do so. Only people who care would do such things.

I do acknowledge that I wouldn't have made these changes if it wasn't for my wife dropping the bomb on me, but I am making my changes for me. I really do not liked the person that I was that caused so much heart ache for my wife, for me and my boys. I had stopped enjoying life and was living for the sake of living and dragging the family with me along that road. I had really shut myself off from my wife and friends. That's the biggest part of my 180. To enjoy life, not just live it. To enjoy the moments/experiences/journey, not just the destination. To focus on the people around me, not just the things.

As you read in the posts, I was so focused on the things/destination, that I completely shut out all the people around. This made my wife feel isolated, unlovable, unrespected and unimportant as I was more concerned about getting there or the thing than who was there to share it with me.

I am making these changes to be a better person for me and to be a better father. Do I expect that it will make me a better husband as well? Yes. Do I want and hope it is as the husband to my wife? Yes. Do I expect that if I do those things that I will achieve that goal? No. I hope and want it, but I really do not expect it.

Does that make me any less committed to saving my marriage or my changes? I don't believe so. I am committed to my changes because I do not like the person I was nor the way I lived before. My wife was right, she had challenged me everytime in the past where I said I was happy, I loved her and I do not understand why we were going to counseling. She would always challenge that that I was not happy. We would then argue about that. Never getting to any resolution or moving forward. I see I wasn't happy. I was comfortable and felt safe and secure. That is not happiness. I had thought by making my wife feel comfortable, safe and secure by giving her things, she would be happy. I was wrong.

So my 180/changes are really to make me happy and those around me. That includes my boys and if it includes my wife, even better. You are right though, it does take a lot of time to make sure them truly part of me. I do slip up at times/often. Difference now, which is why I post so often, is that I do look back and see them. I try to learn from them and keep them burned in my mind as reminder for the next situation.

Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Nothing happens without hope and 100% commitment. It is a huge risk to walk the rails of the roller coaster and risk the greatest hurt you've ever felt rolling over you, sometimes over and over.

A hunch tells me you are man enough to live in the grey zone vs the B&W zone.

Now for the nuance, you are 100% committed, but the W doesn't know it. She assumes you are already moving on. You will be the calm in the storm for her. She won't know about your commitment to your M and her.


I actually had to reread this several times and I'm still not sure, as a DAM, that I get it.

I couldn't imagine that my wife doesn't think that I am 100% committed to saving the marriage. She had thought when she felt that I stopped loving her that I gave up on the marriage, which is what drove this heartbreaking decision of hers.

What makes you think that she assumes I'm already moving on? How do you think I should get her to know about my commitment to her and our marriage?

So I guess the answer to you question "Can you get the nuance and DB, while being realistic it may not work, and still be that committed?" - no I don't think I get it.

Please be gentle with your 2x4's :-o
Posted By: Coach Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 06/03/09 05:26 PM
Quote:
I couldn't imagine that my wife doesn't think that I am 100% committed to saving the marriage. She had thought when she felt that I stopped loving her that I gave up on the marriage, which is what drove this heartbreaking decision of hers.


You need to imagine why your W felt that you stopped loving her. Your W desperately wants to be loved, she still is not getting it from you.

Quote:
you are 100% committed, but the W doesn't know it.


Maybe try thinking about what your W could be wanting from her man? Change your perspective. You can handle it.
Cheers
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
I couldn't imagine that my wife doesn't think that I am 100% committed to saving the marriage. She had thought when she felt that I stopped loving her that I gave up on the marriage, which is what drove this heartbreaking decision of hers.


You need to imagine why your W felt that you stopped loving her. Your W desperately wants to be loved, she still is not getting it from you.

Quote:
you are 100% committed, but the W doesn't know it.


Maybe try thinking about what your W could be wanting from her man? Change your perspective. You can handle it.
Cheers


Coach,

What if the only thing WAS wants from LBS is the one thing that's hardest to give -- the D?

-AlexEN
"I do want my wife back, but am not hopeful that will happen. The closest analogy I can make is like winning the lottery. I do hope to win, but I will not be planning my future based on winning it. That doesn't mean that I'm not going to play."

By thinking that way, you're not 100% committed. It's like you're setting yourself up for failure and even expecting failure. To stay committed, you have to remain positive and have faith. Faith that you're trying your hardest and will succeed. Your success will either be from saving your M or in the knowing that you've tried and become a better person for it.

You will need that faith and commitment because if you think this part of the process is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet. Your feelings will go through so many more ups and downs, you will need your faith to serve as an anchor through all of it.

That's what you need to decide.
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa

I couldn't imagine that my wife doesn't think that I am 100% committed to saving the marriage. She had thought when she felt that I stopped loving her that I gave up on the marriage, which is what drove this heartbreaking decision of hers.

What makes you think that she assumes I'm already moving on? How do you think I should get her to know about my commitment to her and our marriage?

So I guess the answer to you question "Can you get the nuance and DB, while being realistic it may not work, and still be that committed?" - no I don't think I get it.

Please be gentle with your 2x4's :-o



My 2x4's Always come padded.

secret decoder ahead (normally this is if I told you I would have to kill you info for women's eyes only):

The whole point of GAL and PMA is to make the WA blink. Wow, LBS is so upbeat and positive, hmmm am I doing the right thing here. I was so sure, now I am questioning it just a little. Am I so easy to get over?

LBS is so happy apparently, and I still don't feel all that great. WTF?!

She assumes you've given up by watching you. And you are doing really great at it. But then your actions are going to create cognitive dissonance. (Do a google search or use the search function on this site.)

And, you let her know your committment WITHOUT any words. With actions.

Any clearer?
And, to add to that, when the GAL and PMA are really and truly for you and not just for the reaction of your spouse - they are really unsure of themselves.

Combined with your positive changes they look at you with new respect. You become interesting, different.

With a heaping helping of friendship - things can happen.
Originally Posted By: Coach
You need to imagine why your W felt that you stopped loving her.


I don't have to imagine why my wife felt like I stopped loving her. I know what I've done in the past made her feel unloved/unlovable.

She had written the lyrics to "Buy Me a Rose" in card last year that really summed it up. She wrote the Kenny Rogers version, but the Luther Vandross version really summed it up: "He works hard to give her all he thinks she wants; But it tears her apart ‘cause nothing’s for her heart".

I ignored her, took her for granted, shut myself off from her emotionally, didn't spend time with her, made her feel like an after thought, only touched/talked to her when I wanted sex, made her feel disrespected, etc. It really makes me angry at myself when I type it up and re-read it. I didn't realize I had been doing those things (pretty crazy, I know, but I really didn't realize that was how she felt). Pretty bad stuff as I look at it with a fresh set of eyes in the rearview mirror.

So in short, I was incredibly selfish that she did everything that kept my love tanks filled, but I didn't keep her's filled. I thought I had, but now I know I hadn't.

Originally Posted By: Coach
Your W desperately wants to be loved, she still is not getting it from you.


Coach - like many of your posts, I've reread it many times and this point really made me think.

She had said, even right before she moved out, she sees many of my changes and said that they were just physical changes. I really didn't understand fully what that meant, but think it may be related to the point you're making. She still doesn't feel loved by me. Maybe she's not letting herself feel loved by me or what I'm doing isn't showing her that I really love her. I'm really going to have to think through this one some more.

How do I show her that I truly love her so she will feel loved? That is a question/point that I would really welcome some input on.

Originally Posted By: Coach
Maybe try thinking about what your W could be wanting from her man? Change your perspective.


Coach - another thought provoking point.

My wife says that I still don't get her or understand her. I had asked what she had meant by that and she says that I still can't sense how she feels or what she needs/wants. I thought this was a communication issue, but I think Kittyfish summed it up very nicely in her post

"What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. "

Again, this is another one that I really need to spend more time thinking about.

Thanks for dropping in and offering your guidance.
Posted By: Coach Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 06/03/09 05:59 PM
Quote:
What if the only thing WAS wants from LBS is the one thing that's hardest to give -- the D?


Alex, If you truly believe that is the only thing your wife wants from you then why not give it to her? She doesn't want anything else from you? That sounds kind of absolute to me. If it's true what will you gain from hanging on to someone who truly does not return any goodness to you? You can still love someone without anything in return but to expect something back would be bad for your own self-care.
How would you respond to this question if it was asked to you?
Posted By: Coach Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 06/03/09 06:10 PM
Quote:
"What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. "


CIPA, If you can get this you will be a happy man. I promise. Not one time does it mention what she will do in return. It's all about her. To a man that sounds kinda of selfish doesn't it? It's actually selfish (fearful) on our part not to treat and cherish our wives this way.
Reread what KittyFish wrote. Hang in there brother, you can handle it.
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
But then your actions are going to create cognitive dissonance. (Do a google search or use the search function on this site.)

And, you let her know your committment WITHOUT any words. With actions.

Any clearer?


I thought I was getting it but had gotten lost until I googled congitive dissonance. What I couldn't get was how do I let her know my commitment without any words? What are some actions that would do that?

Thanks again for helping a DAM through his own ignorance.
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
"What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. "


CIPA, If you can get this you will be a happy man. I promise. Not one time does it mention what she will do in return. It's all about her. To a man that sounds kinda of selfish doesn't it? It's actually selfish (fearful) on our part not to treat and cherish our wives this way.
Reread what KittyFish wrote. Hang in there brother, you can handle it.


Yeah, it does sound kind of selfish and I was being selfish. According to my H- he was perfectly happy. He felt I was meeting his needs and I didn't need to improve on anything.

After putting everyone else- and I mean everyone else above myself for so long this is what happened.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
You will need that faith and commitment because if you think this part of the process is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet. Your feelings will go through so many more ups and downs, you will need your faith to serve as an anchor through all of it.


Stuck

Ack! You mean it gets harder from here?!?!?!

I'm really torn on how much hope that I hold onto. Sandi's message really painted a bleek picture for me so I was trying to prepare for that. Particularly as I had gotten into this doldrum after the phone call I had with my wife a couple of weeks ago that gave me hope. She had said that she was sad and knew she needed to go to therapy. Of course, now that she still hadn't and has since told me that she still doesn't want to be my wife because she doesn't trust me and is still hurting, it sent me spiraling down. I've been trying to pick myself up the last 2 days.

I do have faith that I'm working as hard as I can and want to succeed at saving the marriage. I don't have a lot of confidence that it will happen, but am sure that I am becoming a better person along the way (provided I don't have an emotional breakdown).

I think I see your point that being committed to my changes and the process of what I'm doing will lead to two possible outcomes (save the marriage and/or be a better person). I do have faith that the changes I'm making are the right thing to do and with either outcome I will be better off.

Am I getting that right?
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
What if the only thing WAS wants from LBS is the one thing that's hardest to give -- the D?


Alex, If you truly believe that is the only thing your wife wants from you then why not give it to her? She doesn't want anything else from you? That sounds kind of absolute to me. If it's true what will you gain from hanging on to someone who truly does not return any goodness to you? You can still love someone without anything in return but to expect something back would be bad for your own self-care.
How would you respond to this question if it was asked to you?


Coach,

I need to think about this more... I accept that she doesn't love me any longer... I guess what I don't accept is that she is her "true self" now and the hurt this D will likely cause 3 precious and innocent children who don't deserve BOTH of us not giving it our all before giving up...

-AlexEN
CIPA-

I just read this last thread- I didn't get to read the complete history because I don't have that kind of time right now.

Your post broke my heart because I can feel the kind of pain that your WAW is in.

Whether or not she's a perpetual victim or not like Sandi says I cannot say. I can only say I felt exactly the same way that she did.

I didn't read what her father or sister did but I can tell you I've been resentful and unforgiving in the past myself.

Was your wife an abuse survivor in any way? Mental, emotional etc?

I was abused in every way possible growing up. My mother was a narcassist so I was taught at an early age that everything was always about her. I learned to caretake to her and to think my needs were unimportant.

What I didn't see- until my pastor pointed it out to me- was that I had married a man the same way- selfish. He wasn't a narcassist but extremely selfish.

What I can say is that it took your marriage and wife a long time to get this way. To believe you would never change. Just changing for a short period of time is not going to prove it to her- it will take longer than that.

As I stated earlier I'm not completely familiar with DB. What I can say is that GAL or the 180 wouldn't have worked for me but yet neither would begging or pleading. In the end my ex did all kinds of things to try to "wake me up"- filing papers first and dragging me through the muck in the process- calling all my friends to tell them I was a whore etc.

I was too stubborn and set in my ways to see what I was doing. I wanted away from the pain- and fast.

The other posters are right- your wife needs help and you cannot make her get it.

I do think she wants to keep you around to meet her emotional needs- she doesn't want to meet yours- but she wants to keep you on the backburner to meet her needs in some way- which is why she is continuing to call you etc.

I didn't try to be friends with my ex because I felt it wouldn't be fair to him to try to "keep him on the string" so to speak because I had no intention of going back. I can tell you though that I did miss him because in ways he was my best friend- and I can see that she might feel that way and that it might be hard for her to let that go.

It's like she's jerking your chain to see you jump- and rush to meet her emotional needs- which is what she wants from you anyway. It's a game to her to push you and nudge you to see if you respond. Then she gets her fix.

Going dark wouldn't have worked with me either- because that would have played in to "He doesn't really love me".

What would have worked for me was apologizing sincerely for what he had done and ask for my forgiveness. What would have worked is him treating me with kindness other than anger and in my sitch I would have loved to have heard "It doesn't matter what you've done- come home and work on our marriage- I forgive you"

Then again, I had an affair so that part may not apply to you.

Is there any sign of infidelity? Because in what I've seen before women do not usually move out until they've got someone else lined up???
Wow. This is so enlightening. Kittyfish, thank you. I am LBS but was close to being WAS...married to a narcissist (IMO).

Quote:
What would have worked for me was apologizing sincerely for what he had done and ask for my forgiveness. What would have worked is him treating me with kindness other than anger and in my sitch I would have loved to have heard "It doesn't matter what you've done- come home and work on our marriage- I forgive you"


You really think that would have worked? Or more like maybe...

Quote:
Is there any sign of infidelity? Because in what I've seen before women do not usually move out until they've got someone else lined up???


I have women friends who left without having someone else lined up. Or they kicked H out. I think women get fed up. I'm sure each sitch is different.
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
"What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. "


CIPA, If you can get this you will be a happy man. I promise. Not one time does it mention what she will do in return. It's all about her. To a man that sounds kinda of selfish doesn't it? It's actually selfish (fearful) on our part not to treat and cherish our wives this way.
Reread what KittyFish wrote. Hang in there brother, you can handle it.


Coach

I agree 100% with you that understanding these sentences are very important.

I read these very same issues in many of the threads about our WAW's. I also heard about it in my small group that I joined in my church. The women there talked about how it bothered them that their husbands didn't treat them that way. However, they all said that they didn't say anything and let it build into resentment because the were afraid or didn't know how. I practically jumped out of my seat and had started saying WTF but caught myself as I was in church, but said that is the very thing that my wife said. None of them could say what they were afraid of or what was it that they didn't know in order to say it.

I guess the part that we, men and women, need to also come to agreement to is - what does some of the key words mean.

For example, in a partnership, what does that look like for each person? There are some partnerships where one person carries the ball as long as both enjoy the prize. Or there are some partnerships where you carry the ball the first 90% and I will drive it home due to different capabilities/skills. Or the traditional 50/50 partnerships.

So in other words, there needs to be some dialog/communication to set what the expectations are from both people to create the partnership. Or perhaps that is the part of what KittyFish wrote of taking the time to listen and to intimately know the other.

Or am I just being a DAM and I should just know (like my wife had expected).
There has to be dialog about it. No, you shouldn't have to be a mind reader- it's up to each person in a relationship to communicate what they are not getting out of it. You cannot take responsibility for her not telling you what she wanted.

In my case I did. He knew very well I didn't want to shoulder all the responsibility. Heck, I even talked to his parents separately and asked them to talk to him way before the A ever happened.

We were married 13 years. I would expect that after that time he would know me and care how I felt. Which he obviously really didn't. It's sad, because it really would have taken so little to please me........
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish

It's sad, because it really would have taken so little to please me........


Wow. Sorry to jump in again but I spoke those very words to H. Truth is, it wasn't worth it to him. Some people actually think it is JUST about them and their happiness and yes you should be happy too (AKA "hey, what's your problem?")...

For some reason it is always gratifying to see sitches that we can relate to. For me, it helps me take some of the blame off of myself and know that if it was worth it to H, he would have done it and if it was worth it now, he would at least try. It just isn't worth it.
Kittyfish,

Thanks for dropping by in my thread to offer your insight. It breaks my heart everytime I recount how awful I was in not giving my wife myself and my heart as I was so focused on giving her things. When she would complain, I would trivialize it in my mind that she had every THING that she needs, why is she asking for this other stuff. It wasn't important in my mind (the quality time, the emotional bonding/connecting, etc). I didn't take have the time to see how important it was to her because I was so busy taking care of the THINGS and working so I can provide the THINGS. So along the way, I completely forgot about the person I was providing the THINGS for. Very sad as I look back at and want nothing more than another chance. I have asked/begged/pleaded for it in the beginning. Then I started DB'ing because, as many people here point out, begging/pleading doesn't work.

Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
I didn't read what her father or sister did but I can tell you I've been resentful and unforgiving in the past myself.

Was your wife an abuse survivor in any way? Mental, emotional etc?

I was abused in every way possible growing up. My mother was a narcassist so I was taught at an early age that everything was always about her. I learned to caretake to her and to think my needs were unimportant.


I'm so sorry to hear about your abusive past, growing up and in marriage. That must have been horrible to live through and deal with.

My wife's hurt from her dad was that he cheated her her mom when he was 7. Her mom took her back and he cheated again. This happened 3 times in less than a year until he finally left for good.

My wife's hurt from her sister was how she always put her down and made her feel less important. The big hurt that my wife told me about was how her sister invited her to go skiing with her and her friends. When they got to the ski resort, they went off by and left her by herself (ignored her). This happened sophmore year in HS and she hasn't trusted her sister since.

Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
I do think she wants to keep you around to meet her emotional needs- she doesn't want to meet yours- but she wants to keep you on the backburner to meet her needs in some way- which is why she is continuing to call you etc.


My therapist (who was our marriage counselor) also said this to me, as well as others on this board. There seems to be a general consensus that if she finds someone else, or someone else starts paying attention to her, she will stop and I will be left out in the cold (again).


Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
Going dark wouldn't have worked with me either- because that would have played in to "He doesn't really love me".

What would have worked for me was apologizing sincerely for what he had done and ask for my forgiveness. What would have worked is him treating me with kindness other than anger and in my sitch I would have loved to have heard "It doesn't matter what you've done- come home and work on our marriage- I forgive you"

Then again, I had an affair so that part may not apply to you.

Is there any sign of infidelity? Because in what I've seen before women do not usually move out until they've got someone else lined up???


I'm fairly certain there isn't anyone else, but can not be 100% certain. I did ask her when she hit me with the bomb as I told her that she had made so many changes (i.e. lost weight, changed hair color/style, dressed differently, sex toys/lingere, etc) 2 years before the bomb I was wondering why. She got really mad and told me that if I wanted to know who she was making the changes for I should look in the mirror. She said she had been trying to get my attention. It made me cry - both for how stupid/blind I was and how hurt it must have made her feel.

I had appologized numerous times and asked for forgivness to the point where she even said I need to stop appologizing. She had even said that she forgave me, but can't forget so that she can't see feeling for me like a wife should feel for a husband.

I believe that she ultimately moved out because she couldn't contine to have the person who hurt her so badly right in front of her all the time. She said she needed time and space to heal. Unfortunately, she's not getting any help to do that and I don't think she has the skill/strength to do it herself.

So I'm in this horrible situation and my 2 boys are bouncing back and forth from our two places. I'm working on me to grow as a person so I will not make the same mistakes. I had tried Dark/Dim but saw that, as you pointed out, it seemed to just reinforce that she felt that I didn't love her. So know I'm going to try and be her friend. I don't want to be her friend as I love her and want he to be my wife. She doesn't want that. I had been struggling with do I have the strenght and self confidence to love her enough so I can be a friend.

Because as a friend, they would want what you had posted as well: "What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. " - Bet you didn't think how powerful these sentences would be when you posted them. They are exactly the 2x4's many of us need.

Thanks again for your support and insight.
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
There has to be dialog about it. No, you shouldn't have to be a mind reader- it's up to each person in a relationship to communicate what they are not getting out of it. You cannot take responsibility for her not telling you what she wanted.

In my case I did. He knew very well I didn't want to shoulder all the responsibility. Heck, I even talked to his parents separately and asked them to talk to him way before the A ever happened.

We were married 13 years. I would expect that after that time he would know me and care how I felt. Which he obviously really didn't. It's sad, because it really would have taken so little to please me........


That was actually part of our problem. My wife couldn't tell me in a way so I would get it. I had almost fallen over when she told me that she had actually made up her mind in Sept to file for divorce and had tried to tell me 3 times between Sept and Dec. She said that each time, she saw that I didn't understand what she was getting at. I told her that she certainly figured out how to tell me in Jan when she said she filed!

I guess that's another reason that I'm beating myself up. I know in reality, it would have taken very little to please my wife, if I would have known/understood. I do understand know and am putting in so much to do so, but now she doesn't care so I'm afraid no amount of effort will make a different.

But, as Stuck had pointed out, I'm making these changes to save my marriage, but I will still succeed, even if my marriage isn't saved, as I will be a much better person for this effort.

Crazy part of it is that my wife says that she sees how much I've changed and is proud of me and recognizes how I'm much better as a person now than even when we first met. It's just that she's too hurt and can't trust me to be vulnerable with me again.

ARGH!!!!
Quote:
She doesn't want that. I had been struggling with do I have the strenght and self confidence to love her enough so I can be a friend.


I hope you will be kind to yourself and take this day by day. Friends have boundaries too. Friends sometimes need space or to do their own thing. You will find a groove that works for you. You are a stand-up guy for being here and doing the work you're doing. That makes you really a commodity as a friend and as a spouse in the future...
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Quote:
She doesn't want that. I had been struggling with do I have the strenght and self confidence to love her enough so I can be a friend.


I hope you will be kind to yourself and take this day by day. Friends have boundaries too. Friends sometimes need space or to do their own thing. You will find a groove that works for you. You are a stand-up guy for being here and doing the work you're doing. That makes you really a commodity as a friend and as a spouse in the future...


Aliveandkicking,

Thank you for the encouragement and kind words. I do have my ups and downs - mostly downs over the past couple of days. I'm trying to pick myself up.

I will be seeing my wife tonite as my 3 year old has baseball. Last week she didn't show up (chiropractor appointment). I think she feels likes she has to be there since she has the kids tonite. So I need to shift into my postive, upbeat, attentive, loving CIPA as we will be having dinner together at the park before baseball starts. I'm going to pick up both of the boys and she will be picking up the food (I actually just got off the phone with her).

I won't have to fake the positive attitude as I will be seeing my boys tonite! Haven't seen then in since Sunday morning. I will enjoy the moments and not let myself be dragged down knowing that they will be going to her place tonite after baseball.

Thanks again
CIPA,

I can tell in your posts that you're really sorry for the things you did to your wife.

I understand that she is struggling with past hurts- but truly she's upset because once on a ski trip they ignored her? And she has carried that around for years??? WOW- that's kind of dramatic. Everyone's suffering is different though I guess. I can see how seeing her dad cheat on her mom could have affected her.

I actually have gotten help. I'm mildly bipolar type II- which is the lesser of the two- and I can pinpoint alot of my actions towards that. I take a very lose dose of mood stabilizer- and I know I always will have to- and I'm cool with that. For me it's like diabetes or some other kind of illness.

All of the work that you're doing on yourself right now will benefit you later on down the line. Whether or not you're with her or not. I know this- because as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts- my current husband was the betrayed spouse in his marriage. He went to counseling alone and worked on his issues and I'm so glad that he did- because he gets it- he really does. And I have reaped the rewards of him doing that.

Little things like looking your woman in the eye when she talks to you can go a long way.
Hi Kittyfish,

You've got some great insight. I'd appreciate if you could stop by my sitch later to let me know your thoughts.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1777634#Post1777634

Thanks!
Posted By: Coach Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 06/03/09 09:37 PM
Quote:
So in other words, there needs to be some dialog/communication to set what the expectations are from both people to create the partnership. Or perhaps that is the part of what KittyFish wrote of taking the time to listen and to intimately know the other.


What would you be doing for your W if she had the M she needs?

She has the answer your job is to find out.
This is whole situation blows.

Baseball went pretty well tonite. Kids had fun. I had fun. My wife kept complaining how cold it was, I had brought an extra sweatshirt for her because I knew it was going to be cold so I gave it to her. We chatted lightly but I could get a sense she didn't really want to talk/chat. I didn't press her. I played with the boys until baseball started and would just say a few words to her to try and keep her engaged.

Baseball started and it was a riot - 3 & 4 year olds playing. She laughed and really seemed to enjoy herself. We were standing close to each other and a few times she leaned very close to me to talk. Our 7 year old kept trying to squeeze in between us or get/keep her attention. I didn't let it bother me (like it did a few weeks ago). He was just being a 7 year old boy trying to get his parents attention as they were paying attention to his 3 year old brother's baseball game.

Towards the end of the game, I noticed that she was standing a little further away. Not sure what happened or changed. I then just focused on my 7 year old and the baseball game. I didn't let it phase me nor change how much fun I was having watching the game (it was like watching the 3 stooges).

Anyway, when the game was over, the coach reminded us tonite was the last game (oh crap - I didn't know) so there goes seeing my wife for dinner at least once a week. My wife asked when my 7 year old started soccer - I said not for 2-3 weeks and then it would be Tues and Thurs nites. So there is going to be a 2-3 week gap. It got me down a little bit, but oh well. What can I expect, we're seperated now and marching along towards a divorce. I can't let a lull in the kids activities that brings us together get me down.

What did get me down was at the end of the nite, the boys were suppose to go back to her place (we alternate Weds). My 3 year old started freaking out that he wanted to go home with daddy. I saw my wife struggling to get him seated and buckled in. I didn't want my 3 year old to think that I was abandoning him so I went back to her truck. I could see she was on the verge of tears. I just touched her back slightly and said gently, that I can take of this (in hindsight I should have asked if I could help or was there anything that she would like me to do, but oh well, I'll have to remember next time).

I gave my 3 year old a hug to calm him and told him that mommy and daddy loves him very much and mommy wants to spend some time with him too. Then my 7 year old ask my wife why she was making sad faces. I just shot him a look to be quiet, but I could see he was sad and on the verge of tears as well. I just gave him a hug and kiss as well. I then tried to buckle in my 3 year old but he kept stressing about coming home.

I had almost asked my wife it that was ok, but thought that would have been wrong as it would have put her in the "bad guy" position. I just told my boys that I will call them tonite to say good nite and that we will do something special when they come home tomorrow. I love them very much but mommy needs to spend time with you too.

I got my 3 year old buckled and I turned to my wife and said good bye. I think she was trying to hide the fact that she was upset/crying from me.

This is really crap. It is really hurting our boys. She must see that. Her "fantasy" that the boys will be fine if we divorce must be blowing up in her face. I am trying to be her friend. I was very upbeat, positive, attentive and caring tonite. I am doing whatever I can do to be a better person.

All she is doing is clinging to the hurt in the past and destroying everything that we had. I know part of it is that she doesn't see what we had as of any value. I do know she loves the boys and does not want to hurt them. But that's not the reason why I want her to stay in the marriage. That's not the marriage I want.

This is real crap. I don't know what to do. It's not right what's happening. I hate what I had done to get us to this point. I have learned my lesson and will continue to learn from it for the rest of my life. The boys are suffering and will continue to suffer from this for the rest of their lives.

I love my wife and am geniuinely sorry for what I've done to make her feel unloved/unlovable. I'm an committed to working on myself to be a better person so that I will enjoy life and make the people around me feel loved and give myself to them. I know this will result in a better me for me and my boys. Why isn't that good enough to save this marriage?

ARGH!!!!
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
CIPA,

I can tell in your posts that you're really sorry for the things you did to your wife.

I understand that she is struggling with past hurts- but truly she's upset because once on a ski trip they ignored her? And she has carried that around for years??? WOW- that's kind of dramatic. Everyone's suffering is different though I guess. I can see how seeing her dad cheat on her mom could have affected her.

I actually have gotten help. I'm mildly bipolar type II- which is the lesser of the two- and I can pinpoint alot of my actions towards that. I take a very lose dose of mood stabilizer- and I know I always will have to- and I'm cool with that. For me it's like diabetes or some other kind of illness.

All of the work that you're doing on yourself right now will benefit you later on down the line. Whether or not you're with her or not. I know this- because as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts- my current husband was the betrayed spouse in his marriage. He went to counseling alone and worked on his issues and I'm so glad that he did- because he gets it- he really does. And I have reaped the rewards of him doing that.

Little things like looking your woman in the eye when she talks to you can go a long way.


Kittyfish,

I am very sorry for how I made my wife feel. I will live with the "guilt" for the rest of my life, whether my wife comes back or not. I couldn't believe that I had made her feel that way. But I can't change the past and realize that all I can do is live now and look forward into the future.

I think she holds onto the hurt from her sister as her sister is very different from her so I suspect that she is somewhat envious of how her sister is - very carefree, fun loving, extroverted/social and isn't overweight. My wife tries to be but I could see that she is uncomfortable doing that (I really noticed the first time that I took her to meet my friends in Florida, then a later trip to meet my friends in NYC). She has to be really "pulled in and hugged" for a while with a group before she feels comfortable. I do know that her sister doesn't try to make her feel "invited" and connected. The same with her dad. Neither one had made the effort to really change to make her feel connected.

I do agree that she needs help. More help than I am capable of giving, even if she wanted it from me. What made you decide to get help? It sounds like it really helped you and your current husband had made the changed so I'm glad to hear that you are in a happy/rewarding relationship. It gives me some hope that my future is doomed to be days of saddness.....

Is there anything that you think I could do to try and steer my wife to getting help?
"I hate what I had done to get us to this point. I have learned my lesson and will continue to learn from it for the rest of my life."

Have you read anything that we've posted here? Stop blaming yourself. Your W is clinging to a "hurt" which, yes, is pretty dramatic. You and her can't live in the past. You're just frustrated and the main reason is because 1) you believe all the self-serving crap she's been dishing on you and 2) you haven't forgiven yourself.

Well M is a two-way street. Both of you made mistakes. So what? You're only human. Forgive and move on. Let's face it...your W has some major self-esteem issues. Look at her fluctuating weight for one thing. All she does is complain about it, but does she do anything about it? No. She would rather complain about it.

It seems like that's your W's response to everything. It's not my fault. If only someone else could. Blah blah blah. She's gotta take responsibility some time and you can't shoulder everything.

She's hurt, fine. She's an adult. Let her deal with it because you can't change how she thinks and you can't control it. Simple as that. But you're allowing her to control you big time. It's been like this since day 1. If you read what you just wrote, you could hold it up to your first post and it's exactly the same.

I understand how your boys are hurting. My girls were hurting big time too. So be there for them when they need it, but stop carrying the cross on your shoulders.

There's your 2x4.
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
So in other words, there needs to be some dialog/communication to set what the expectations are from both people to create the partnership. Or perhaps that is the part of what KittyFish wrote of taking the time to listen and to intimately know the other.


What would you be doing for your W if she had the M she needs?

She has the answer your job is to find out.


I had asked her this, not in the exact words, but from what I've gotten was that right now she feels that I still don't get her, meaning understanding how she feels and "knowing" what she needs based on understanding how she feels. It almost sounds like mind reading to me. She says you can see it in some couples how they can look across a room and be able to see how each one feels by the look in their eyes. I'm not sure how realistic that is, but I am trying to figure out how she is feeling when we are together. I'm not sure if that is really what she is looking for or just her excuse for holding onto the hurt.

I do know my wife wants to be felt loved. Her languages of love are physical touch, then words of affirmation and then quality time. They were each almost scored identically. I have to be careful about the physical touch, but I do try to do non-sexual touching. I try to use words of affirmation when I talk to her. Quality time right now is a challenge as she doesn't seeem comfortable being around me. So I'm shifting now that even if we are chatting on the phone, I try to use words of affirmation and make the time we spend chit chatting as high quality as possible.

Not sure if that is what she needs but you are right, she does have the answer and I do need to figure out....
Originally Posted By: stuck808
"I hate what I had done to get us to this point. I have learned my lesson and will continue to learn from it for the rest of my life."

Have you read anything that we've posted here? Stop blaming yourself. Your W is clinging to a "hurt" which, yes, is pretty dramatic. You and her can't live in the past. You're just frustrated and the main reason is because 1) you believe all the self-serving crap she's been dishing on you and 2) you haven't forgiven yourself.

Well M is a two-way street. Both of you made mistakes. So what? You're only human. Forgive and move on. Let's face it...your W has some major self-esteem issues. Look at her fluctuating weight for one thing. All she does is complain about it, but does she do anything about it? No. She would rather complain about it.

It seems like that's your W's response to everything. It's not my fault. If only someone else could. Blah blah blah. She's gotta take responsibility some time and you can't shoulder everything.

She's hurt, fine. She's an adult. Let her deal with it because you can't change how she thinks and you can't control it. Simple as that. But you're allowing her to control you big time. It's been like this since day 1. If you read what you just wrote, you could hold it up to your first post and it's exactly the same.

I understand how your boys are hurting. My girls were hurting big time too. So be there for them when they need it, but stop carrying the cross on your shoulders.

There's your 2x4.


Stuck,

Thanks for the 2x4. I've been trying not to blame myself and am coming to grips that I must forgive myself. I just haven't gotten there yet. I know I need to forgive myself before I could imagine having someone else (i.e. my wife) forgive me.

I do shoulder my share and see that she isn't even considering that she has anything to shoulder. One of my concerns is that even if she does, she doesn't deal with it in a very healthy manner. Until then, as Sandi had pointed out, there's not much chance that things will turn around. I just have to figure out how to steer/help her figure it out.

I did wind up calling the boys to say goodnite. I chatted with each of them a bit and then I asked to talk to my wife. My wife got on and I told her that our 7 year old still had homework to do tonite. She then started complaining about how difficult and uncoorperative the kids are becoming. I tried to listen and respond with "Oh, that can be just so frustrating" or "I can't believe that" or "You are right, that is ridiculous when they do that".

I then tried to shift to something positive in terms of how funny the game was tonite. She said it was but then went right into how bad the pizza was that she picked up for dinner and how it was not good for her (weight wise) and how she spent $50 for take out over the last 2 nites. Then she went into how cold it was before the game started and how she, at one point, even thought about just leaving and having the boys come home with me (I would have loved it I thought). She said she didn't because our 7 year old told her that he wanted her to be at the game this week since she missed last week.

I then tried to get her refocused on some of the funny things that happened during the game (shift into positive talk). I got her to agree that it was funny a few times. Then I told her that it sounds like she still has some things to take care of tonite so I would let her get going. I said goodnite and hung up.

So I'm still continuing with my latest strategy of where I engage her in light conversation after I say good nite to the kids. I try to be someone who listens and tries to understand/get her as she talks (which she does, usually complaining about something). I do then try to talk about something positive/funny and be the one who ends the call.

Let's see how this goes.

Thanks again for the 2x4.
No problem. I expect the same 2x4's when I mess up.

The only thing I would have avoided was this:
"I tried to listen and respond with "Oh, that can be just so frustrating" or "I can't believe that" or "You are right, that is ridiculous when they do that"."

You should have just said mmm-hmmm if you wanted to acknowledge her, but I don't think it's right to dismiss it the way you did. She's going to have to realize that she's hurting your boys badly. While you don't have to scold her for it, you don't have to invalidate their feelings. Especially when you said it's "ridiculous" when they act a certain way. It is not ridiculous. They are young kids.

I have a feeling that if you validate her actions of pushing the feelings of the kids to the side, then it shows her that she was right. The same as when she slapped your son. She can bitch and moan all she wants about herself, but she shouldn't be taking it out on your kids.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
No problem. I expect the same 2x4's when I mess up.

The only thing I would have avoided was this:
"I tried to listen and respond with "Oh, that can be just so frustrating" or "I can't believe that" or "You are right, that is ridiculous when they do that"."

You should have just said mmm-hmmm if you wanted to acknowledge her, but I don't think it's right to dismiss it the way you did. She's going to have to realize that she's hurting your boys badly. While you don't have to scold her for it, you don't have to invalidate their feelings. Especially when you said it's "ridiculous" when they act a certain way. It is not ridiculous. They are young kids.


Stuck,

I was trying to work on reducing the length of some of my posts, but I guess I should have put a little more details into what I was responding to with my comments.

She was getting frustrated about how when the boys go to bed, they keep finding excuses to get back out out bed - i.e. I need a drink or I think I heard a noise or My bear fell on the floor, etc. I definitely agree it is frustrating when they do that - usually for about 3-5 times before they finally go to bed, about 30 minutes after they are put to bed. They only do it 1-2 times to me, but even that gets frustrating to me.

When she was talking about something that they would ask for something in particular for breakfast and then after she made it, they weren't hungary, I said "I can't believe that" .

The latest thing is how they are both fighting over the TV in the morning and at nite. They would spend 10-15 minutes fighting about it and then if turns out it was suppose to be the 3 year old's turn to pick, he usually picks what the 7 year old was trying to watch to begin with. That is pretty ridiculous, in a funny sense.

So she wasn't saying things that discounted/invalidated their feelings. She was just complaining about things that she was getting frustrated that they did. Personally, I think it's funny because they don't do anything like that with me.

Sorry for the confusion.

And thanks again for the 2x4
Ah. Got it.
Argh!!! This is really killing me. She called me again tonite to complain more of how the kids are behaving. I let her go on and responded with my supportive/empathetic comments.

Then she asked if they behaved this way when they were with me. I told them that they behave the same as they did before she moved out so I would say she would be the best judge of that.

She said that she thinks it's worse when they are with her than the way they were before she left. She said that she was getting really frustrated about that.

I told her that it's a really tough situation and they are dealing with a lot of things now as well.

She then said that she doesn't see how that's it as she would expect that they would be that way all the time (ARGH!!! - she still can't see that they are that way because they see she is the one who left so she may be the one to blame).

She excused it then by saying how even before she left, and I was away on one of my trips, they would act up like this, but in just smaller doses. She said when it happened back then, she would always ask them if they would do this if daddy was home. She said they would always say no.

I told her that I'm not in any position to pyschoanalyze them, but I must imagine that they are going through a lot of emotions now, not just the situation, but just by growing up, so this is a tough time already without all the issues that they have to deal with because of our situation.

I started getting tired of hearing it so I just said as kindly and gently as I can, that it was getting late and she sounded tired so have a good nite. She said you too and she would talk to me later.

I still can't believe she doesn't see how our situation is affecting the kids and can't acknowledge she has any ownership in it. I've seen my past ownership to bringing us to this point. I'm still working on forgiving myself for that. But all the hurt that the kids experience since she moved out is on her.

This is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous.

I'm trying to be a friend, but how can I be friends with someone so BLIND!!! ARGH!!!!
Yeah they all say that. When I asked my W if she was going to tell our Ds about her A when they get older, she was quite adamant that she would tell them and that they would understand. And that they would understand that if you're unhappy, be with someone who makes you happy. What kind of f'd up logic is that?

Sometimes you wonder if they all wander into the stupid fog and enjoy the confusion.
Posted By: Kenn Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 06/04/09 02:43 AM
Hey Confused,

just so you don't feel like the Lone Ranger.... my wife actually blames me for it. My daughter(she is eight)laid into her one night. My daughter I guess stood up and told her she was a bad mom, she never plays games with her, and dad does this and dad does that.... so my ex wife called me up and started to blame me for turning my daughter against her. You would have to read my posts but one short item was i got into it with wife about taking trips with OM and never taking daughter on trips. she accused me of telling daughter about trips, and this was after she brought a t-shirt back for my daughter from New orleans..... i fought the urge to call her an idiot.

As I have heard somewhere else ... "they know not what they do"


I am trying to take the hi road. My daughter needs a mom and a a dad if she is to avoid this crap in the future. so as much as possible i give her mom a chance to be the role model. I will avoid telling my daughter anyhting negative about her mom even though i think she is dealing with some real issues right now LOL!

And Stuck... you are right... that is crap...crazy crap.. i fought with my wife one night and told her, "look I will not ever share this with daughter, but you have to know that I will not let my daughter grow up thinking relationships are disposable. If she is going to marry then she needs to know that she has to put the work into that marriage to make it work"

it got real quite on the phone after that.

My biggest fear now is that my daughter grows up thinking it is okay to be selfish..

so yeah.. they have an issue... I want this and if anyone disagrees then they are an idiot, because it is all about me"

Only problem is that 400 pound gorillia is chasing you and me and stuck and a whole lot of other people on this site ...argh!!!!
Hi confussed......we are going to get you "unconfused" yet! wink

Okay, let me see where to start.......

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I will need to maintain a co-parenting relationship with her. Right now
,

I see.....thanks for clearing that up.

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I get the sense that she wants/expects to be friends post-Divorce. I am trying to decide if I can be friends with someone who hurts their family by getting Divorced.


You are correct that she thinks or expects a friendship post-divorce. That is her "fantasy" doing her thinking for her. She has this unrealistic idea of how everything will be for the better and what she needs is a good dose of reality. As for you deciding about being friends, just let me say that most couples have to have a cooling off period b/c everything is too fresh and raw. Emotions are not stable and it hurts too much for the LBS. The reason it wouldn't be as bad for her is simply due to her fantasy. When she is determine to see this dream come true......she won't accept what is reality.

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I know this is the best move for the boys and I. I can not keep us living in the past nor sitting still. I had, prior to this bomb, always been of the mindset that if you aren't constantly raising the bar, you are burying. I need to dig the bar out of the ground and get it moving


That statement, my friend, is about the most healthy and positive thing I've heard you say! Yes, I agree. Now, go do it and stop this brow-beating and trying to kill yourself with the emotional daily beatings. You understand what you did in the breakdown of the MR. You canot go back in time and change history. You can only try for a better tomorrow and do the best you can today. You have said you were sorry about a hundred times or more, so enough of that. You need to stop listening to her nightly "woe is me" pity-party routine and stay off the phone with her. She is mentally slaying you each time you politely stay on the phone and listen. Even if you just say things to let her know you are listening.....it is encouraging her to continue.....don't you get that? What you need to do is STOP HER continuance. This is not healthy for her or you and it certainly is not getting either of you forward one inch from where you were......in fact, it is constantly pulling you backward. I heard it once said that a person never stands still in their personal growth. They are either moving forward or backward.

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Originally Posted By: sandi2
If all you have to do is sign your signature, then okay. But no fighting anymore. No hanging on for dear life and no begging and pointing out the good things about M, etc. Let her go.

Are you implying that I should sign the divorce papers now? If I don't sign, it will take another 18 months before a divorce decree is issued to dissolve the marriage. I'm going to really have to think about that one....


Oh, no-no, I must have misunderstood what you were saying in your post. I thought she was pushing you to sign and that it would immediately be filed and the D in order. I believe that if you feel you can move forward with your life and be free of her nagging, co-dependent ways.....then it's fine to stay legally M. However, at this point I am thinking of the frame of mind that you are in.....the children are in.....and she is in. I have never encouraged a D for this reason before and I'm not saying that I'm encouraging one now. I am saying that you will have to be the one to determine how much you can take and how much you can "control" b/c if you continue to allow her to hold the reigns and use her ways in keeping you upset all the time......what kind of life is that? I know, I know....all the sayings that people have about the wedding vows, etc. I get that. Heck.....I've been married for over 4 decades.....I am that! I just don't want you to get the wrong idea like you did before. I am all for M and the family, okay? But, I also think I see your wife in much need of a therapist and she will drag you and your children down with her if you aren't careful. There comes a time that you must think of survival for you and the boys.

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Just as a note, she hadn't called all emotionally the last 2 nites.


I'm sorry, but I just don't see that as being normal progress. The two of you are separated and she wants a divorce!! Why would she be calling you all the time going over the same crap day in and day out....over and over again and again.......if she was normal?? If she wants to be away from you so badly....then why the heck doesn't she leave you alone? I'll tell you why....b/c she doesn't know how and she is really messed up. I doubt that she could live a week without calling you and doing the same number on you.....yet again!

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I would let her go for a minute or two and just say things like "That's too bad" or "You've got to be kidding me" or other shallow things just to acknowledge as she talks about her day. And if she asked about my day, I wouldn't offer much other than it was good, or busy and that would be it. Then I would find a way to get off the phone.


This is not the way to get off the phone. Next time (and hopefully to get the message across to her).....when she starts with the S.O.S., just stop her in mid-sentence and say, "Wife, you know what? I don't want to hear this anymore and I really need to go, so I'll be saying good-bye now". Then hang up the phone. It is a simple action.....you push the button and it disconnects you..... smile If you don't want to tell her that you don't wish to hear that stuff anymore, then say the last part about how you need to go. If she has any brains, she will get the point. Don't know that will stop her from trying the next time, but if you keep cutting her off....and saying good-bye (without waiting for her to say another word....and hang up) she probably will finally stop that nonsense. The key here is to NOT WAIT FOR HER TO SAY ONE OTHER WORD AND HANG UP THE PHONE. Okay? wink

Quote:
For the last two nites, when she was on the phone, I would try to be very cheerful and ask how her day was going or if she mentioned something about the up coming week, I would follow up and ask how it went. This would happen before the boys got on the phone as well as after. Not sure if that's confusing her or it's settling her in or what. I'm still trying to gauge if this is a good approach.


Oh, my. I am sorry if your head is sore from my 2x4's but this is not what you need to do. I may stand alone on this issue....from the other posters you've had. I haven't read all of the posts, so I don't know, but I can promise you that I do not stand alone on this principle (where the vets on the board are concerned)...no offense to anybody, BTW. And, I certainly don't stand alone on this principle where the WAW's are concerned! If you want to know what you are doing wrong, just ask the WAW's. Okay, so back to what I started to say....... blush........So, were you trying to "work her"? I mean, were you trying to "settle her down"? Were you afraid that she would get off on another "let's have a blame game" and you were trying to put the brakes on before it started? I just think that is sad. How long have you had to live in that kind of environment? It isn't confusing her, sweetie, it just plain isn't working.

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I had thought about talking about how my therapy is going or just mention that I had gone that day. Sort of trying to keep the thought in front of her. I'm debating how to approach this.


shocked NO-NO-NO! Please don't do that. It is almost the last thing you would want to do. It will lead to a R talk....and then an "blame-game" every time, that you can rest assured.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Then you may have to make a believer out of her. I really hope I am wrong about my gut feeling about her.


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What do you mean by making her a believer? That I'm preparing for life without her or that I've really changed?


That you are prepared (not preparing) to live life without her. But first, you must convince yourself before she will believe it.

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So what is your gut feeling about her?


I have already told you in past posts, but your posts clearly pointed out that you did not agree and, in fact, took up for her. That is when I said that you were seeing her through eyes of love.......or else you have been in denial for a long time.

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I had thought it was that her mind is made up and she's not allowing herself to let go of her hurt or build any trust to give us a chance. I just want to make sure I got your impression right.... as tough as it may be.....


Well, I do believe she will not give the M a chance at this time. I do think she has convinced herself that the world is out to hurt her and she's to trust nobody. However, that was not my "gut feeling" about her. Please go back an re-read my posts so I don't repeat myself here again. I am already making this one much too long.

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What is the difference in the picture of her that I painted?


Again, I don't want to repeat myself in answering that question, so please go back and re-read what I previously sent. I will add that I think she has convinced you, after all these years, that she is a poor victim who has been hurt and just cannot take a chance on allowing you to do that again. Therefore, she chunks any hope of giving her boys a home with both parents there for them and a loving M for the two of you. That is what I call being very self-centered. A person who constantly sees themselves in the light that she does--can only think about one person.....themselves. I should know! I have been there. I was a woman like that! Please listen to me. She has you so emotionlly blackmailed (if that is the term I should use) and you believe what she says. I agree, she was hurt by her dad. So.....there have been a lot of people hurt by other people in their lives. So have you! Look at her doing the hurt to you. What if you were to throw that back in her face and tell her that she has hurt you so badly that you can't trust her to give it another chance? You know what? SHE WOULD NOT HEAR YOU. She cannot hear or see anyone but herself. She is sick. That is what I'm trying to say to you. You can't help her and you can't deal with her like she is b/c she is sick. I don't mean the woman is insane and needs to be put in an institution, but I mean she needs help and should have been receiving help many years before now. You said yourself that she will not agree to get help without the family pushing her. That should tell you something. She doesn't see it. Everybody else is wrong and she is right....in her eyes. You said it yourself.....

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Pathetically, I feel sorry for her, for the pain that she's felt as she watched her dreams of happily ever after get crushed over the years. I know how painful it is as that's what I've been feelings since she hit me with the bomb. I also feel sorry for her that the hurt is so great, that she feels it is greater than the possibility of trying to achieve it, at least with me. I also see her as a broken woman because of all that pain.


Yes, of course you feel that way about her. But, my gosh......she needs to find a way to coop if she plans to live in this old world very long. EVERYONE GETS HURT. I don't know a living soul that has never been hurt. I do know, however, some really great human beings that have been hurt beyond anything you've told me about her pain......and they found a way to "raise the bar" (as you said) and to make the most of their life in spite of what had been cast at them. A lot of unfairness happens to people, but if we grow up to be adults, like we are suppose to, then we realize that it doesn't HAVE to be the end if we CHOOSE differently. She, however, has not chosen any other way. I think she feeds off of the stuff that happen to her and she doesn't choose to let go b/c SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LET GO. A person has to want to get better and be happy. It is as if she just "dares" anybody to TRY and MAKE her happy. Well, it doesn't work that way, b/c nobody can MAKE another person happy. We are the only ones that have the power to make ourselves happy.

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This is my challenge - forgiving myself. How do I expect anyone to ever forgive me for this if I can't forgive myself.


Oh sweetie (and I call my "favorites" sweetie....no offense intended)....if only you knew what I put myself through after I came out of the fog. I wanted to die. I think I would have felt much better if I had died. To live with what I had done was much, much harder. Forgiveness is a choice. We choose to forgive others. The second verse to that is that the same principle applies when forgiving ourselves. It is a choice. Easy? No way. Hardest thing I ever did. I did not deserve anybody's forgiveness....let alone my own. But in order to be better for my loved ones and to move forward in life and leave this horrible stuff in the past......I had to do it. At first, it was every day. I would face myself and all the "uglies" in me and tell myself that I chose to forgive myself. It isn't a "feeling"....it is a act of will. In time, a sense of peace finally comes, but for me, it sure took that "time". So, for your boys' sake and your other loved ones......and most of all for your own self.....please choose to forgive and to grow and live life. It is so sad that she chooses to live this emotional "death" when she could have a good life with you and the boys. Like I said....at this point....it is a case of survival.

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It wasn't always like this nor is this what I want as a new marriage.


I know. My heart goes out for you and the boys.

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The question that comes up in my mind is are we both strong enough to do the work.


You would be--if she would have a different attitude about life in general....but especially about her past. Right now, I don't see her choosing to make that decision b/c she doesn't want it as long as you are there for her to "hang on a cross" for her hurts.

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I'm think I am and am trying to strengthen myself as I work on myself.


Then you will grow and be a better person for the future, and hopefully in time, things will make a turn for the better. I think much has to happen for/to her first.

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I think she would be if could find it by letting go of the hurt and be willing to trust. I just don't see that happening any time soon, if ever...


Exactly!

I know you can't see my face and can't hear my voice and I'm sure my post has come across as one that is heartless and maybe even brutal......but I honestly hope and pray that your future (and your W's) will be all the best life can give. In all reality, we both know that life doesn't usually give out many "dreams".....right? You are an adult. You have learned. Unfortunately, your W is thinking and acting either like an immature person or a very selfish person. Niether is good for you and your children now. I do hope that somebody can reach her......(I don't think that will be you, though)......and convince her to get therapy.

I'm not giving up on you and I don't want you to give up on your future. Now, I am going to say this again and hope you will not have a backslide. I still believe if you TRULY drop the rope, that message will come through to her loud and clear and she will finally wake up to what she needs to do. However, I think she will have to be convinced that you are serious and "make a believer out of her" before she stops with all the drama.

I know this has been awfully long, but I tried to make myself understood. That is not to say YOU can't understand......I mean that I don't know how to express it very well.

So, I'll close for now and wish you a good night. Do take care of yourself. Keep posting and don't give up.

Sandi





Originally Posted By: stuck808
Sometimes you wonder if they all wander into the stupid fog and enjoy the confusion.


Hahahaha! That was a good one!

I would love to hear what Sandi or Kittyfish or other WAWs respond to that one!
Oppps, just missed me......go back one step. wink
Well take this for example:

"What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. "

She wanted a partnership - could she want you more involved at home with the day to day stuff? More involved with children perhaps. See a load of laundry sitting there waiting for her - get it done before she thinks to do it.

How do you show someone you value them? What is her love language? For instance, acts of service. What can you do for her without pointing it out? A hot cup of coffee first thing in the morning, free time made free because you took the kids somewhere?

Respect. Frankly I think you've been doing great on that. Another way to show respect is to give her space. Quietly move to another room, give her breathing room, take the kids and tell her to go have an afternoon to herself.

Listen, listen, listen. She told you what she wanted. The most important part of communication is listening. You can't be talking when you are listening.

By listening and taking notes, you are going to get to know her intimately. Ask her open ended questions, zip your lip, and let her talk. And keep your eyes on her, nod at things she says, and let her know any word she utters is the only thing you are focused on at that moment.

Listen, we all got to this place because we couldn't see the handwriting on the wall. Often the WA tried to tell us in their own way and we only took it as complaints.

Right now, when it matters most, if we listen, show respect, give them space they will tell us what they need. They will tell us what we have to do and do consistently. When you are that person your wife described she will have the doubts.

So, talk less and listen more.

I know you can.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hi confussed......we are going to get you "unconfused" yet! wink

Sandi - I hope you are right! I think I try so hard to get unconfused that I confuse myself! Of course having a sore head from all the 2x4's that are flying around here isn't helping either - just kidding :-)

I do appreciate all the time and energy you put into sharing your insights with me. This must be particularly hard when you're recovering from the flu.

I've really spent a lot of time the last couple of nites rereading my threads and thinking/absorbing what people here have been telling me.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
As for you deciding about being friends, just let me say that most couples have to have a cooling off period b/c everything is too fresh and raw.

Maybe that's why I am so torn on that decision. I'm trying it now, part of my change in DB/DR approach - as I will be friendly when she calls. As a friend, I will, model what KittyFish originally wrote "What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me.". As Coach had pointed out, this is all about her. I'm not doing this because this as a ploy to win/trick my wife back, but is something that is needed even in a healthy co-parenting relationship.

What I find interesting is that what KittyFish posts seems to applies to true friends as well as your spouse.

BUT even friends will have boundaries. So, TODAY I will set a boundary that I will no longer be blamed for her hurt and pain. TODAY, I will not appologize for something that I already appologize for. If she can not accept the appology and forgive and let it go, that will be her cross to bear. I can not continue to bear her burden. TODAY I will begin to forgive myself.

I know I will not be perfect as I journey down this path, I will trip and fall, but know that there are people here who will pick me back up and help me with my wounds. At times, my boundaries may fall, but people here will supply me with 2x4's to rebuild the boundaries.

I know I will need to be stronger now than I have ever been in my life. I've had a lot of battles/hardships that I've fought through and I need to remind myself that not only did I survive them, I became stronger and better and thrived. I must have the confidence that I will continue to do that.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Oh, my. I am sorry if your head is sore from my 2x4's but this is not what you need to do. I may stand alone on this issue....from the other posters you've had. I haven't read all of the posts, so I don't know, but I can promise you that I do not stand alone on this principle (where the vets on the board are concerned)...no offense to anybody, BTW. And, I certainly don't stand alone on this principle where the WAW's are concerned! If you want to know what you are doing wrong, just ask the WAW's. Okay, so back to what I started to say....... blush........So, were you trying to "work her"? I mean, were you trying to "settle her down"? Were you afraid that she would get off on another "let's have a blame game" and you were trying to put the brakes on before it started? I just think that is sad. How long have you had to live in that kind of environment? It isn't confusing her, sweetie, it just plain isn't working.

Sandi - I wasn't trying to work her. I was trying to be friendly. This is one area that has been really confusing for me in trying to gauge "results". I had been Dark/Dim and all I got was that I was being mean/cold and that I hadn't changed as she felt I was still ignoring her, not talking to her, etc.

I guess this is part of the fine balance of letting her know that I really still love her but I am prepared for a life without her. It's not a "trick" that I'm trying to do, but it's a reality. I know up to this point, I've done a poor job of letting her know I really do love her. All through out counseling last year, she would say how she knew I loved her but didn't feel it. I didn't understand what she meant, nor did our old counselor help me understand it either. I understand it now. Even when she left, she felt that all the changes I've made were just physical changes. I didn't understand that either until recently. She still doesn't feel/believe that I love her.

I suspect that she thinks, like my therapist keeps beating me up on, that I just want the safety, security and comfort of the family back together. Not because I love my wife, but because it was comfortable. That's not the kind of marriage that my wife wants to be in, nor do I. I want it to be a loving marriage, not just a comfortable one.

Hence, I'm trying to show her that I really do love her while I am prepared for a life without her.

Does that make sense? Or is that just crazy? Or is it so stupid, even coming from a DAM?

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I have already told you in past posts, but your posts clearly pointed out that you did not agree and, in fact, took up for her. That is when I said that you were seeing her through eyes of love.......or else you have been in denial for a long time.

So is this what your gut still says?

"Frankly, I believe she moved out to get your attention! She is not GAL. She is not acting like a WAW who has OM ususally acts. So, I think it was to make a loud statement to you about her unhappiness. However, if she gets your attention by behaving like this, it would be the same principle of children getting what they want from bad behavior. She may think she wants you to go "crawling & begging" her to come home, but she would not respect you if you did. "

"She is not the typical WAW b/c she does not want to turn loose of her control over you. She wants you to chase and pursue her like in the romance books."

You had also mentioned that she was trying to control the situation/relationship now and trying to pull my strings like a puppet.

"she is not a forgiving person and hangs onto the hurt/anger and does not let it go"

"My personal thoughts about it all is that there may be "hope" after a D, but I don't see a lot of it now."

So did I capture your gut correctly? Or did I miss something?

The more I reread it and think about it, the more I think it's true - particularly the part on hope. That doesn't mean that I'm giving up hope, but just trying to face the reality (ala Coach - "Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.")

So I do have faith that I will have a happy, better life than I have now (or in the last couple of years of my marriage)....

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I will add that I think she has convinced you, after all these years, that she is a poor victim who has been hurt and just cannot take a chance on allowing you to do that again. Therefore, she chunks any hope of giving her boys a home with both parents there for them and a loving M for the two of you. That is what I call being very self-centered.

So.....there have been a lot of people hurt by other people in their lives. So have you! Look at her doing the hurt to you. What if you were to throw that back in her face and tell her that she has hurt you so badly that you can't trust her to give it another chance? You know what? SHE WOULD NOT HEAR YOU.

I had said that to her several times before. How I know I had hurt her in the past, but I didn't realize it so it was not a conscious choice. Now she is hurting me and the boys and that is her conscious choice. It is not my choice. That's all on her.

She got mad and just said that the boys will get over it and be fine. She said that it may hurt the boys now, but it will not be healthy for the boys to see grow up with parents with our relationship. That I can't blame her for any of this as she tried everything that she knew/could do and that I pushed her to this point and it hurts so bad that she has no good choice as this isn't what she wants either.

I had responded that if that's not what she wants either, than why is she doing it?

She never really responds to that one

Anothernightmare offered good insight - that right now she can't see her ever being happy with me.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
A lot of unfairness happens to people, but if we grow up to be adults, like we are suppose to, then we realize that it doesn't HAVE to be the end if we CHOOSE differently. She, however, has not chosen any other way. I think she feeds off of the stuff that happen to her and she doesn't choose to let go b/c SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LET GO. A person has to want to get better and be happy. It is as if she just "dares" anybody to TRY and MAKE her happy. Well, it doesn't work that way, b/c nobody can MAKE another person happy. We are the only ones that have the power to make ourselves happy.


Ironically, I believe she thinks she is doing all this to escape the pain/hurt so she will be happy. Perhaps she hasn't found the happiness yet. Or what. I don't know. I do know she doesn't want to let go of the hurt. She's not ready to make that choice.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Oh sweetie (and I call my "favorites" sweetie....no offense intended)....if only you knew what I put myself through after I came out of the fog. I wanted to die. I think I would have felt much better if I had died. To live with what I had done was much, much harder. Forgiveness is a choice. We choose to forgive others. The second verse to that is that the same principle applies when forgiving ourselves. It is a choice. Easy? No way. Hardest thing I ever did. I did not deserve anybody's forgiveness....let alone my own. But in order to be better for my loved ones and to move forward in life and leave this horrible stuff in the past......I had to do it. At first, it was every day. I would face myself and all the "uglies" in me and tell myself that I chose to forgive myself. It isn't a "feeling"....it is a act of will. In time, a sense of peace finally comes, but for me, it sure took that "time". So, for your boys' sake and your other loved ones......and most of all for your own self.....please choose to forgive and to grow and live life. It is so sad that she chooses to live this emotional "death" when she could have a good life with you and the boys. Like I said....at this point....it is a case of survival.


Sandi - this really touched me, and it wasn't just the "sweetie" part.

I must have read this part at least a dozen times. That is why, at the start of this post, I am choosing that TODAY I will begin to forgive myself. I still don't know how to work through it, but I am making that choice TODAY.

Thank you so much for sharing your story and your strength is a real inspiration for me.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I'm not giving up on you and I don't want you to give up on your future. Now, I am going to say this again and hope you will not have a backslide. I still believe if you TRULY drop the rope, that message will come through to her loud and clear and she will finally wake up to what she needs to do. However, I think she will have to be convinced that you are serious and "make a believer out of her" before she stops with all the drama.

I know this has been awfully long, but I tried to make myself understood. That is not to say YOU can't understand......I mean that I don't know how to express it very well.


Sandi - I think you are being very clear on this. I think part of this is that I don't want to believe it. Perhaps that had been part of the communication problem between my wife and I. But that is in the PAST.

And you are right, the first person I have to convince that I am prepared for a life without my wife is ME. I don't like it, nor is it what I want, but it is what I need. It is what my boys need. For us to be prepared to live a happy, healthy and good life, with or without my wife a part of it.

Ouch. This hurts.
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Well take this for example:

"What I wanted to see was a partnership- someone who valued me- respected me- and most importantly someone who wanted to meet my needs. Someone who listened to me and took the time to intimately know me. "

She wanted a partnership - could she want you more involved at home with the day to day stuff? More involved with children perhaps. See a load of laundry sitting there waiting for her - get it done before she thinks to do it.

How do you show someone you value them? What is her love language? For instance, acts of service. What can you do for her without pointing it out? A hot cup of coffee first thing in the morning, free time made free because you took the kids somewhere?

ARGH!! This is exactly something she complained about a couple of weeks before she moved out. I was always heavily involved in the kids and would always take them out for a few hours with the intention of giving her a break. Of course she took it as a "hurt" that I would take the kids to the park or Chucky Cheese, but we would go out only 2-3 times/year. We had divided up the house work where I took care of all the outside stuff (mowing, shoveling and other yard work), the dishes and vacuuming while she took care of everything else. Her complaint to that was that she was mad that she had to ask me to do that.

Then I find out, about 4 weeks after she dropped the Divorce filing/bomb on me, her primary love languages were Words of Affirmation, Touch and Quality time (almost all ranked equally). I was more focused on giving her things and doing things for her (Gifts and Service). I completely missed the boat. She used to complain about how I used to give her back massages and foot rubs in the beginning but when she would ask for them, I bought her a massaging thumper and foot bath massager instead. ACK!!!!

Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Listen, listen, listen. She told you what she wanted. The most important part of communication is listening. You can't be talking when you are listening.

By listening and taking notes, you are going to get to know her intimately. Ask her open ended questions, zip your lip, and let her talk. And keep your eyes on her, nod at things she says, and let her know any word she utters is the only thing you are focused on at that moment.

Listen, we all got to this place because we couldn't see the handwriting on the wall. Often the WA tried to tell us in their own way and we only took it as complaints.

Right now, when it matters most, if we listen, show respect, give them space they will tell us what they need. They will tell us what we have to do and do consistently. When you are that person your wife described she will have the doubts.

So, talk less and listen more.

I know you can.


I am trying to listen. I had never been a good listener and coupled with her not being a good communicator really came to a disastor. Perhaps if I was a better listener, her way of communication would have been fine. I don't know. Can't change the past nor second guess it. It is what it is right now.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and insight.
Maybe this is part of the process of forgiving myself or the process of believing that I am prepared to for a life without my wife, but I am really annoyed.

I keep running it through my head of how she is destroying everything and ruining what could have been for the 4 of us. I just keep thinking how incredibly selfish of it because she just doesn't "feel" it any more.

I had felt sorry for her and sorry for my boys because of all the hurt.

But as my DB coach said, feelings come and go. You can't make a decision to destroy a family based on a feeling.

She hadn't called/text during the day today. It does bug me a little bit as I still haven't fully detached nor drop the rope. That's what I'm working on.

But I'm still annoyed.

I do have the boys tonite so that is something to look forward to. When I picked up my 3 year old to take him to baseball yesterday, he was all excited to show how he helped bake a cake at school. My two boys and I each ate a piece and really enjoyed it. Particularly my 3 year old as he told us how he and his class made it. His job was to put in an egg and he talked about how it got all over his hands and arms.

I'm going to try and bake a cake with them while I have them (she picks them back up on Sun AM). I just have to see what she left in the kitchen to bake a cake in.

I'm really trying to stay focused on the positive of seeing my boys tonite. I'm trying to figure out how to forgive myself so I can let go of the guilt/hurt.

I will remember my goal of spending this time with the boys without letting this situation distract any of us from enjoying our time together.

What she is doing is crazy, in my mind. It may make perfect sense in her mind, but I don't think anyone else can see it that way.

I guess the best revenge is to live well. And the boys and I will....
"revenge" is a pretty strong word. Getting a little angry huh?

Told you about the rollercoaster getting worse.

Just be prepared because once you have another positive interaction with her, you're going to fall right for it, then set yourself up to getting hurt again.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
"revenge" is a pretty strong word. Getting a little angry huh?

Told you about the rollercoaster getting worse.

Just be prepared because once you have another positive interaction with her, you're going to fall right for it, then set yourself up to getting hurt again.


I'm not sure if its anger or I'm becoming resentful. Could be the same thing.....

Last nite's interaction, while not positive, was not negative. It was frustrating though as she still doesn't get it.

I am hopeful that when we were talking about how the kids are really acting up/out when she has them, that it will knock some of the fog away to see how the kids are reacting/dealing because of this situation. Last nite she completely dismissed it was how they were acting when I was away on one of my trips.

One thing that I had forgotten to mention as part of that call, was that she said that when they get stressed/angry, they would ask to go back to daddy. She asked if they ever ask to go to her place when I have them. I told them that they did not.

I did talk to my WAW friend about this. She just laughed and asked, "So what are your really missing then? What do you want back? Just constant complaining and misery?" I told her that I wanted my wife and family back together. I did tell her that it wasn't like this before. I just don't know how it changed so abruptly.

I guess I do have to remember, from a WAW perspective, the tension, complaining and misery has been going on for some time. My WAW friend would say how she would make excuses to work late so she wouldn't have to go home to deal with it. My wife never did that nor did I (particularly since I thought everything was fine)

I really hope she thinks and sees some of the reality of what is happening to our family. I doubt if she will and even if she does, she will find a way to excuse it or put the guilt on me. If she tries that, I will be strengthening my wall so I will be ready this time around.

Very frustrating and in utter disbelief.....
Well the thing is that the WAW's emotions are very mercurial. They change as often as the wind blows.

The thing is that your WAW friend has the same mindset as the majority of people out there. Just leave. Why put up with that crap, etc. But the ones who find themselves on these boards are STANDERS. We stand for our M no matter how painful things are, we are the rare ones who believe in our commitment and will do whatever it takes to keep true to that and ourselves.

It is hard and that's why MWD says in her books that it is going to take more patience than is humanly possible. But along the way I personally have learned more about my strengths and myself as a person than I ever would have if didn't happen.

There is something that I found on a website that I recite every morning to remind me of my commitment. If you're interested, you can find it here:

http://www.rejoiceministries.org/

It's a Standers Affirmation that helps me stay focused on myself and what I'm doing.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
It's a Standers Affirmation that helps me stay focused on myself and what I'm doing.


This is where I am so torn as to what's been offered recently. I know some have said there is no hope so for the health of myself and my kids, I need to be prepared for a life without my wife. So by preparing for a life without my wife, am I, by default giving up?

I am not giving up as I will work on our marriage as soon as my wife says she wants to as well. I am trying to "attract" her back, which is where I am at odds with Dark. How attractive is Dark? Mysterious perhaps? Annoying perhaps? Attractive? I've heard the James Bond analogy, but even he, while acting stand offish is flirting, charming, charismatic and friendly.

On the flip side, I'm trying to not be needy as that is not attractive either.

Perhaps this is the nuance the Wifey had talked about.

Be prepared to live my life well with my boys while making myself attractive to my wife.

This is where I need to drop the rope to earn my self confidence and self respect back. To detach to improve my own emotional health. Because isn't self confident, self respecting and emotionally healthy individual much more attractive than a needy, emotional wreck?

This is a fine line to balance.

Either way, I am off to pick up my boys to come home. I will remember my goal of not letting the situation be a distraction while we are together.

So confusing. So many questions.....
"This is where I am so torn as to what's been offered recently. I know some have said there is no hope so for the health of myself and my kids, I need to be prepared for a life without my wife. So by preparing for a life without my wife, am I, by default giving up?"

You're missing the point. You build up your confidence because 1) it makes you much more attractive to your W and you find the strength to continue to fight for your M, and 2) IF things don't work out, you'll understand that you'll be fine.

I've been at this for over a year. I still believe in my M and still stand for my M. I do things like write goals, try different things to attract my W (whether it's giving her space, spending time with her, talking, etc.), and at the same time have a list of my own personal goals that I am working on to make me a better individual (working out, new projects, run a marathon). Yet at the same time, if I came home today and found out my W had packed everything and left, I would be fine and at peace because I know I did everything I could. No hard feelings. That's the level of detachment you'll get to.

Do I want my M? Of course! Will I survive without it? Yes!

"This is a fine line to balance."

It is and it's like what Wifey said about being nuance. It's a shift in the dynamic of your thinking.
I think she feels loved by you right now. More so now than she has in the last few years.

I think she likes it, makes her feel comfortable and complete having that love.

This is what she is getting out of it. She knows you, she sees it in your eyes and in your actions.
before the bomb she saw indifference. She feels that if she goes back to you she will loose the love she feels from you right now.

She shook you up and she knows it. She is enjoying the feeling of power, revenge and the feeling of being loved.

What really shook you up? I don’t think is was the action of filing for divorce or wanting to move out so much as the death of the love she had for you, you felt it die and that hurt.

You need to take this away from her or things will not improve.
The thing is, she knows you very very well she reads your eyes she see's your actions. I don’t think she listens a whole lot to what you say.

I don’t know if you are a good actor but you can’t show the hurt/pain/ love in your eyes.

You may have to truly fall out of love with her.
When this is gone and she believes it is gone it will unfortunately hurt her. I believe she will then want it back. How she does this I don’t know, she may pursue you, she make try and make you jealous etc..

I agree with others that she is not the typical walk away, I believe that is why she does not have an om … she does not want to take it too far for fear of losing the feeling of being loved, loosing the power she has over you.
Originally Posted By: theroadback
I don’t know if you are a good actor but you can’t show the hurt/pain/ love in your eyes.

You may have to truly fall out of love with her.
When this is gone and she believes it is gone it will unfortunately hurt her. I believe she will then want it back. How she does this I don’t know, she may pursue you, she make try and make you jealous etc..

I agree with others that she is not the typical walk away, I believe that is why she does not have an om … she does not want to take it too far for fear of losing the feeling of being loved, loosing the power she has over you.

Theroadback,

That's a very unique perspective you are offering here. That's what I really like aobut this forum. People looking with fresh eyes with their thoughts.

Personally, I feel that if I did something like that, show her that I have fallen out of love for her would just reinforce what she has felt over the years and that I have really not changed.

I could be wrong though. My track record of being right has really been pretty bad relative to my situation.

Anyone else have any opinion on this strategy?
Check out robx's responses on my thread. he's pretty hardcore on the "moving on" strategy.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
It is and it's like what Wifey said about being nuance. It's a shift in the dynamic of your thinking.


I've been re-reading Wifey's posts numerous time on nuance. I'm still stuck (no pun intended)

Originally Posted By: The Wifey

The whole point of GAL and PMA is to make the WA blink. Wow, LBS is so upbeat and positive, hmmm am I doing the right thing here. I was so sure, now I am questioning it just a little. Am I so easy to get over?

LBS is so happy apparently, and I still don't feel all that great. WTF?!

She assumes you've given up by watching you. And you are doing really great at it. But then your actions are going to create cognitive dissonance. (Do a google search or use the search function on this site.)

And, you let her know your committment WITHOUT any words. With actions.

And, to add to that, when the GAL and PMA are really and truly for you and not just for the reaction of your spouse - they are really unsure of themselves.

Combined with your positive changes they look at you with new respect. You become interesting, different.

With a heaping helping of friendship - things can happen.


The part that is really hanging me up is the part about "committment WITHOUT any words. With actions. "

Some help please....
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Check out robx's responses on my thread. he's pretty hardcore on the "moving on" strategy.

I've noticed that too - I've been watching your thread. It looks like some serious traffic going on over there.
Just some journaling...

I picked up my 3 year old first. He was so excited to see me. Just like when I picked him up yesterday, although he was so excited, when he ran over to me, he tumbled over a few toys and knocked over a couple of kids. He picked himself up and just said "I'm ok" and ran and gave me a big hug shouting "Daddy" over and over again. You have got to love kids

He wouldn't stop talking all the way over to picking up my 7 year old. My 7 year old saw me and gave me a hug and said he missed me. He then said that he had wanted to come home last nite too, but didn't say anything when the 3 year was stressing about it because he didn't want to make mommy sad. I told him that he will never know until he ask, so he should never be afraid about asking.

I had really wanted to say - don't worry about making mommy sad because she isn't worried about what she is doing and how it makes us feel, but I thought Sandi would head over with her club again.

Anyway, the boys and I got home. I started dinner as my 7 year old did his homework and my 3 year old played. They were both very happy and with no stressing going on. It was great. They ate dinner very nicely as each of them talked about their day. Of course there were a few times when they were talking over each other or my 7 year old was trying to one up his little brother's stories, but it was a great time.

We got baths without any issues and the kids and I played some board games until it was time to read books. I read books with them both, watched a show and they both went to bed. I noticed when I tucked my 7 year old in bed, he seemed a little sad (like he was about to cry). I just gave him a really big hug and goodnite kiss and asked if he was ok. He said he was just tired. I smiled at him as I told him that I love him and that I was glad he was home. He just said me to.

During prayers, he asked again for mommy to come home soon. All the other times, I would get a little choked up when I heard that. This time, I just told him that his prayer was very nice and kissed him good nite.

The 3 year old said his prayers and just asked for water once.

It is great to have the boys home. I am staying focused on living life for these moments with my boys and not let my situation distract from the quality time with them. I didn't even check this forum on my Blackberry the entire time!

Huge step for me!
Nice...
Great night. Did your W call like she expected you to?
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Great night. Did your W call like she expected you to?


No my wife didn't call nor did I have the boys call her.

I had thought about having the boys call her like she asked, but she did say it didn't have to be every nite. I just wanted them to have a nite without any of the BS or dealing with any feelings of talking to her. I will probably have them call at least once during this trip home.

I'm sure it will bug her, but I'm preparing my wall as I'll just remind her that I call them if she doesn't call me and I had already told her that she is welcome to call the boys anytime.

I must admit that I struggled with having the boys call her or not. I kept going back to what Coach said - ask yourself the question will this bring me closer to my goal.

I debated that if I did it, it would show her that I was listening to what she said and had respected her enough to do it. On the other hand, I was worried that she would just see how easy it was for her to control what I did. That's why I compromised on having them call just once out of the 3 nites that I will have them. Of course if they ask to call, I will let them. Or if she calls, she can certainly call them.

Not sure if this is a pride thing that is getting in my way or not.

Any thoughts?
Could be a little pride thing. When my W and I were separated, we each made it a point to say goodnight to the kids, EVERY night. It was an unspoken thing, but when she was going to put them to bed, sometimes she would call me to let me know and I would do the same.

By your W saying that it's not necessary to say goodnight to the kids every night, especially when they're so young, I think is rude. They need to hear and understand that their parents are still around and not just abandoning them. It's no wonder your W has a hard time with them. to them she's already checked out. They need re-assurance.
Oh yeah, and needless to say this is another example of her "do as I say and not as I do". It's okay for her to change the rules...just not you.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Oh yeah, and needless to say this is another example of her "do as I say and not as I do". It's okay for her to change the rules...just not you.


I don't think this was changing of the rules. She had said that the parent with the kids should do the calling, although she said that it doesn't have to be everynite as she doesn't want it to be an issue in the event that the other parent can't be reached.

So, unless she calls to complain of why I didn't call her, I don't think she is flipping the rules around.

Of course, now I'm stressing a little as I haven't heard from my wife at all today (no text, email, calls). I think this could be a first since she left.

I've got that crappy feeling again. I really have to work on detaching and dropping the rope.

ARGH!!!!
maybe you should go hardcore like robx has been telling me. I don't think it would work in my sitch, but you never know.
maybe you should go hardcore like robx has been telling me. I don't think it would work in my sitch, but you never know.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
maybe you should go hardcore like robx has been telling me. I don't think it would work in my sitch, but you never know.


I've been following what he said. It seemed pretty extreme. Not sure if I'm ready for that type of move nor do I think it will help get my wife back.

Personally, I think she would take it as a true absolution of any responsibility she had that brought us to this point. She will cast herself as the innocent wife that lost the love of her husband years ago but stuck it out as long as she could before getting the courage to get out of such an emotionally abusive relationship. She will take it as affirmation of that I would say that I loved her but didn't really feel it.

I'm really curious of how Sandi or other WAW's chime in on.

My WAW friend, when she talks about her husband who she walked away from 6 months ago, keeps saying that she wished he would find someone else so he would leave her alone.

So that could be another route that could take.
So it's official - I believe yesterday was the first day since she moved out that she didn't call/text/email or anything.

I hurt and I'm anxious, but it's not as bad as I thought. Perhaps I'm begining to get resentful of what she's doing to tear apart our family and everything we built up.

This is where she does have some MLC tendancies. The home and family, which is what we had talked about before we got married and had children, was a dream for her. Suddenly she calls it all a fraud and is walking away. I know the part that we missed, which is the most important for her, was to feel loved by her husband.

I'm not beating myself up on it. I've appologized for it countless times and am done appologizing for the past. I'm just facing the reality.

I am still hopeful to save the marriage, but it seems to be sucking so much away from me right now. Who know's what she's thinking or going through. I know I can't waste any energy away to guess. I can't figure her out nor does she make sense to many people here.

Perhaps she finally shifted to full blown WAW mode of no contact and emotionally moved on. Perhaps that's what the call on Sunday nite was all about.

Either way, I'm going to continue to work on me and preparing for a great future for my boys and I. I still want my wife back with the family, but either way, we will be fine

Thanks for listening to my ramblings. I'm just a little down this morning, but am fighting myself from slipping to far....

I do have some get a life stuff going on, lunch with a friend today, one of my buddies and I have been playing phone tag to set another outing up, I'm still going to church and have to do more reading for my small group. I have the boys for the next 2 nites and they are SOOOOO excited to be home with Dad.

So many positives, so why do I feel like crap.....

You feel like crap because you miss your wife, and your marriage is up in the air right now. Maybe she had to get out and cut off all communication (except regarding the kids) so she could start processing the TONS of emotions that she has to deal with now. Maybe she needs TIME and SPACE. Give it to her. This takes longer, A LOT longer than we want it to. That's where PATIENCE come into play. If you're committed to your wife and your marriage, back off and give her the space and time that she NEEDS. It's hard, and it feels counterintuitive, but it's absolutely necessary when the situation warrants it. Don't despair, and don't give up. Love her, honor her, and cherish her by giving her the space and time that she needs. Look at it that way, it might help you. Sometimes they can't even start to heal until they are away from us, and communication is practically not there! Keep working on yourself, focus on your kids and your job. What's to lose by going this route? Detatch, and 'drop the rope'.
Originally Posted By: antlers
You feel like crap because you miss your wife, and your marriage is up in the air right now. Maybe she had to get out and cut off all communication (except regarding the kids) so she could start processing the TONS of emotions that she has to deal with now. Maybe she needs TIME and SPACE. Give it to her. This takes longer, A LOT longer than we want it to. That's where PATIENCE come into play. If you're committed to your wife and your marriage, back off and give her the space and time that she NEEDS. It's hard, and it feels counterintuitive, but it's absolutely necessary when the situation warrants it. Don't despair, and don't give up. Love her, honor her, and cherish her by giving her the space and time that she needs. Look at it that way, it might help you. Sometimes they can't even start to heal until they are away from us, and communication is practically not there! Keep working on yourself, focus on your kids and your job. What's to lose by going this route? Detatch, and 'drop the rope'.


Antlers

Thanks for the support. It's just so hard to do nothing. But then again, doing nothing is actually something to do.

Now I'm not saying I'm sitting idle and doing nothing with my boys and I, but I'm talking about relative to my wife. I have to break my habit of being the fixer. I can't fix this alone. My wife needs to help me fix it. If she doesn't want to help, there is nothing I can do other than work on my end (which is me and my boys).

There are moments where I think she has given up after Sunday nite's call, but then again, she filed for divorce. She gave up back then. She saw a lawyer to draw up the papers. She gave up back then. She made the decision to see a lawyer. She gave up back then. She gave up when she moved out. She gave up when she stopped going to marriage counseling. She gave up a long time ago, I need to remind myself. This is not new news.

This is still crap, but it does hurt less when I know there are people here who support and believe the same things I do.
Thought I'd share this with you...

"You can work on your marriage without pursuing and live your life without harming your marriage. Your every move is being watched by your wife. This is when you get to lead." - Coach

As you said, to paraphrase...'doing nothing (regarding the relationship) is actually doing something'!
Good job not calling her. What she thinks is not your problem.

The bottom line here is that she broke up with you.

You showed her that you can improve the reason why she broke up with you.

Its her choice now, her choice to want you back. She has to be the one to initiate it.

Do nothing.

Even if you got back together with her due to your persistence and it was not her decision 100% what kind of relationship would it be anyway?
she would just be on her high horse and disrespect you to no end.

You showed her what she is missing, she can take it or leave it.
If I were you I would start seeking some female companionship. It really does help your confidence and attitude. It will also shake her up .... thats what she needs, a good shake up shes too comfortable right now
Originally Posted By: theroadback
Good job not calling her. What she thinks is not your problem.

The bottom line here is that she broke up with you.

You showed her that you can improve the reason why she broke up with you.

Its her choice now, her choice to want you back. She has to be the one to initiate it.

Do nothing.

Even if you got back together with her due to your persistence and it was not her decision 100% what kind of relationship would it be anyway?
she would just be on her high horse and disrespect you to no end.

You showed her what she is missing, she can take it or leave it.
If I were you I would start seeking some female companionship. It really does help your confidence and attitude. It will also shake her up .... thats what she needs, a good shake up shes too comfortable right now



I agree with most of your post. It's good stuff. I take exception though with "...start seeking female companionship. It really does help your confidence and attitude. It will also shake her up...".
CIPA is stll married! There are lots of people on this board because their spouses are CHEATING on them! If it was wrong for them to do it, and it was...then it's wrong for the LBS to do it! Two wrongs do not make a right. The trick is to increase your confidence and attitude through hard work while you are getting better and stronger...not through 'dating' while you are still married! If you really love your spouse and want to reconcile and spend your life with them...how in the world can one justify 'dating' while you're still married to them?
That's my 2 cents on that subject. No offense intended.
BTW just to let you know where I am coming from. As I have said before I have been going through the same issue as you (wife felt neglected and unloved among other issues) for over two years. I think I have tried a lot of different approaches, not all but allot.

Now that I feel detached, really detached, and she sees it, I feel that she is actually starting to pursue a little, and its only been a few weeks!!

We got into a pretty bad fight the other day and not once did I hear the D word. She knows I don’t care anymore about D anymore, she cant use that card.

Years of nothing, well some half hearted trying on her part but not like what I am seeing now.

Going to keep it up….strange saying that, because I don’t need to keep anything up nor do I need do anything. Because I am…….I am detached naturally… feel’s pretty cool actually …
no offence taken .... I see your point but look at what she has said to him, she moved out and filed for D!! I think it is perfectly fine for him to see other people, date, cheat, what ever you what to call it at this point.

What is the marridge here? where is it? just a legal paper at this point? plus dating may even save it in the end.

So divorce is only when its legal? I think divorce in the heart over rides the legal issue.

I felt like I was divorced when my wife withdrew all affection and love from me and took off her ring. I felt divorced no matter what the paperwork said.

On the other hand I understand and respect other opinions on this issue.
Posted By: Coach Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 06/05/09 05:12 PM
Quote:
So divorce is only when its legal? I think divorce in the heart over rides the legal issue.




Try that one out with the judge or at the Pearly Gates. grin

My M is a sacred covenant between me and my wife. Feelings can change but your beliefs and values you need to have squared away.
"I felt like I was divorced when my wife withdrew all affection and love from me and took off her ring. I felt divorced no matter what the paperwork said."

I felt the same way. Especially with the OM involved. I lasted a year before I started making new friends. My ego wasn't strong enough.

PMA
sacred covenant.....so .....uh.. that is what you think cnpa shares with his wife right now? in what way?

I dont want to get into a debate aboth this like I said I respect other opinions about this.
"I felt the same way. Especially with the OM involved. I lasted a year before I started making new friends. My ego wasn't strong enough."

Can I ask what your wifes reaction was to the "new friends"
Well she ofcourse acted like it didnt bother her, but she had looked up the girls phone on our computer. hmmm. I was done playing detective anyway. Who needs that?Still it wasn't enough for her to face her demons and come back to earth.

They say only 15% of people are willing to look within to find happiness. We should call our group the 15% club.

PMA
For the record I do have a few freinds. I guess you can call them ea's if you will. For some reason something I will absolutly not allow is a pa of anykind.

everyone tells me I should and that they would not blame me but I cant have a pa no way... screwed up code I have, ok with ea's but not pa's...

I could hear her now....my husband slept with another woman how dare he!!...Why would he do that to you, where you not sleeping with him? no I did not sleep with for two years but how dare he!!.......oh....
How many times in our lives have we said something that we didn't mean because we were hurt or angry? How many times have we done something because we were hurt or angry? A large percentage of divorces that are filed are NEVER finalized!

I think some people have the ability to justify their actions...regardless of how wrong their actions are! I'm stating my opinions here. A marriage license is just a piece of paper also...if one chooses to look at it that way! CIPA is still legally married! If he's not free to marry...then he's not free to date! Again, that's my opinion. Hard to see how violating a marriage vow might 'save' the marriage!

Yeah...a 'divorce' is a legal thing. Just because one spouse is making a mistake doesn't justify the other spouse making a mistake too! Sandi made a good analogy comparing a WAS to someone who had a disease! How would you treat your spouse if they had a disease? How valuable is this woman to you? They are not thinking right, they are confused, they are 'in the fog' right now. Someone has to be strong and thinking right...it take a strong man to hang in there and do what's honorable and noble and try his best to save his marriage.

It's not a 50-50 thing...especially under these circumstances! It's more like a 99-1 thing...with us putting forth 99% of the effort! If she's worth it to you...you'll do it. I don't feel divorced right now, even though she's done all of the things you mentioned, and CIPA probably doesn't either. I'm separated, as is CIPA. These are my opinions, and it's how I feel about it.

But, I respect your opinions on this issue, especially in regards to your own situation.
Good morning "Confused"....... smile

You sound sooooo much better. I am very relieved to hear some things you are saying. I think when you decided to stop taking all the blame for the stitch and giving yourself daily beatings, then you were able to see more clearly what she was really doing. Then, the resentment and anger started to set in. That is okay. I think it is a stage you have to enter and frankly, I think it is high time you got angry!

Yes, you have understood (I think) what my gut feelings are about her. I think she is malnipulative and uses her past as her main tool in trying to control you. I agree with a lot of what "theroadback" said on that subject.

You said you wanted to show her that you still love her and you wanted to stand for your M. You aren't sure how to do that with actions and not words. However this quote said it very well:

Quote:
Hence, I'm trying to show her that I really do love her while I am prepared for a life without her.


As you have time, you can figure out how to "show" her without words and getting a personal life while you are dropping the rope and moving forward may sound as if you are not loving her or standing for your M, but you can. GAL and dropping the rope does not change your beliefs and your standards. It does not change your desires. However, you cannot continue doing what clearly was not working! I think you have finally seen that! Time for a new plan of action. She must reap what she is sowing and let her suffer the consequenses of her decisions. That may be hard for you to be on the side-lines while she does that and you may be tempted to run in to rescue her. DON'T DO IT! She may call and cry and tell you more of the same old crap and how horrible the kids are treating her and how bad she has it. Don't rescue her. If you do......everything will be lost! She must suffer what she alone decided for this family. Don't make things easy for her in your desire to get the family together. Go about living your life and enjoying each day without all her interference. Do not stay on that phone listening to her. As I told you before, tell her you are busy and have to go, or that you aren't going to listen to the same replay of what you have already heard. She really must find out that she cannot control you and your life any longer before she will take notice and want to change what she is doing. Do you see that? As Theroadback said, she has all the power and is loving it. Don't fall for her dramatic scenes.

I do encouage you to get more involved in things besides the time you have with your boys. You need activities and time with friends. This leads me to what Theroadback said about dating other women. I do not agree that you need to do this now. Fist of all, you are too vulnerable and I strongly believe it would add a tremdous amount of confusion to your stitch. You certainly don't need another female to deal with. Too many women are out there looking for a R with a man. Being in your emotional state with your W only makes you that vulnerable to the ego food from another woman. Look at what happen to me! I fell for all that ego food from OM. I wanted to feel my self-esteem built up, also. Of course it would feel nice for a female to flirt and tell you what a hunk you are and make you feel like God's gift to the female gender. Believe me.....there are millions of women on the prowl looking for the next sucker. A "rebound" R with another woman would be soooo easy right now. Why would you put yourself in that position? Don't you have enough problems? I even tell people they are taking a chance when they go to the bar scenes where single people, or M people looking to cheat, hang out trying to snare somebody. The temptation is there waiting for somebody to take the bait. The hook is hidden beneath all the phoney games people play with each other when at these places. Too many lives have been ruined by one night of lonliness with the opposite sex. Oh, sure, I know somebody can say that you can date and not have sex with them. You can just go out to dinner with them, etc. PLEASE!!! It is very, very rare that that happens b/c you have been in a MR and you miss that. You miss the intimacy you had and your body certainly misses the sex. So, I don't want anyone pretending that it is "only dinner". I think as long as you are wanting to reunite with your wife, then you sure don't need to keep one on one company with any female.....even "just a friend" female. Being in a safe group of old friends is probably the best way to go. Even then, you have to be on guard b/c there is too much hanky/panky going on these days. Always seems to be somebody who would gladly spend the night or have a "quickie". So, stay safe and pick your places and your company wisely. You don't want another heartbreak on top of this one. If you have some buddies that you can spend some time with......I would encouage you to do that. You need fun times.....not talking about the MR. You need a break from all the drama. Is there any particual activity that you use to like before you were M? Maybe you have wanted to try something new? This is your time for that.

Hope you understand what I said about moving on with your life (dropping the rope) and yet not throwing away the possibility that some day your W may get her head straighten out and things could work out. You just don't allow that desire or hope to dictate your life any longer. You must move forward.

It would need to be a new MR and not this old one you had. That was unhealthy and she sure needs a lot of healing and make a lot of changes before entering into a new R with her.

I think that the general advice from your posters have mainly said the same thing (except for the dating). People have their own style and words, but I have read it and it sounds as if you are receiving the same encouragement to move ahead and drop the rope. Give her time and space and make her miss you. You asked if "dark" could do that and could it be attractive. OH YES!! Very much so! How can she miss something that is available whenever she wants it? You become attractive when she thinks she can't have you. That is why you do not discuss your "plans" of going dark or dropping the rope and moving forward. You don't tell her this......you just do it. If you tell her what your plan of action is.....that would be the same as showing the opposing team your game plan. Not a smart thing to do, right? So, be careful in those phone conversations b/c she is still pulling you into R talks.

Okay, must go for now. Talk later.

Sandi
Originally Posted By: theroadback
BTW just to let you know where I am coming from. As I have said before I have been going through the same issue as you (wife felt neglected and unloved among other issues) for over two years. I think I have tried a lot of different approaches, not all but allot.

Now that I feel detached, really detached, and she sees it, I feel that she is actually starting to pursue a little, and its only been a few weeks!!

We got into a pretty bad fight the other day and not once did I hear the D word. She knows I don’t care anymore about D anymore, she cant use that card.

Years of nothing, well some half hearted trying on her part but not like what I am seeing now.

Going to keep it up….strange saying that, because I don’t need to keep anything up nor do I need do anything. Because I am…….I am detached naturally… feel’s pretty cool actually …


You know what's interesting to note, when I was more Dark/Dim, even though she complained about how cold/mean I was, she called/text/emailed me almost everyday. It was mostly tactical stuff related to the kids, but the calls were usually chit chat type stuff with a few very emotional calls.

This week (Mon - Weds) I tried the approach of being friendly when she calls (before I would be very short and not say much) where I would ask how she was doing and stuff like that. Weds nite was the last time she called. I was supportive, friendly and caring during her call (she was complaining about how the kids were behaving at her place). I did suggest it may be related to the situation, but she didn't agree at all (big surprise). That was the last time I heard from her. Now many will say not hearing from a WAW in 1.5 days is not a big deal, but it's significant to me since we've had contact almost every day since she moved out.

I'm sure that is a big reason why she hadn't missed me.

Now I'm back to Dark/Dim, so I'm not calling (I didn't call Mon - Weds, she still initiated contact). I'll let her initiate it, even though she has told me a few times over the last 2 weeks, that if I want to call her, I should. She said if I had something on my mind, I should just call her.

Very confusing, but I'm not calling. Maybe this is childish or resentful, but it feels like the right thing to do considering how after I tried being friendly on the calls this week, she stopped. Coincidence? Don't know.

Sigh. Going on week 7 since she left.
Not calling is called "detaching". There are going to be times when the urge gets so strong that you have to force yourself to put down the phone.

The one thing I miss the most is my W calling me at work to see how my day is going. Once I found out about her EA, those all came to a stop. I still miss them even a year later.
Not calling is called "detaching". There are going to be times when the urge gets so strong that you have to force yourself to put down the phone.

The one thing I miss the most is my W calling me at work to see how my day is going. Once I found out about her EA, those all came to a stop. I still miss them even a year later.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
You sound sooooo much better. I am very relieved to hear some things you are saying. I think when you decided to stop taking all the blame for the stitch and giving yourself daily beatings, then you were able to see more clearly what she was really doing. Then, the resentment and anger started to set in.


Thanks Sandi. I am feeling better today, even though we haven't had any contact since her call Weds nite. I'm still frustrated she didn't even consider the possibility of how the situation is causing our boys to act up more when they are with her. I'm sure part of it is that I had always been the disciplinarian, but the fact that they tell her that they want to go home to Daddy and doesn't say that they want to go to Mommy's place, should really say something.

I did tell her the day she moved out that I was frustrated that she was hurt and feel like we really aren't given a chance to realize our future.



Originally Posted By: sandi2
Yes, you have understood (I think) what my gut feelings are about her. I think she is malnipulative and uses her past as her main tool in trying to control you. I agree with a lot of what "theroadback" said on that subject.


I must admit that I wouldn't have really seen it if you and others didn't come wielding 2x4's and clubs to beat that one into me. I never had thought of her as controlling before, particularly as she complained I was controlling and never made her part of the decisions. I've have been seeing signs of it since she dropped the bomb, but I guess I was still blinded by love. I still love her, but I'm keeping my eyes open now.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
As you have time, you can figure out how to "show" her without words and getting a personal life while you are dropping the rope and moving forward may sound as if you are not loving her or standing for your M, but you can. GAL and dropping the rope does not change your beliefs and your standards. It does not change your desires.


I certainly hope so as I still don't understand how do I show her that I still love her while I'm moving forward. I do appreciate everyone's comments/interpretations on GAL and dropping the rope. I guess that it really up to an individual's beliefs and situation. I respect them all as that is how we all learn and grow. While it may seem uncomfortable to see disagreement, it is a normal part of learning and growing as individuals. I was actually happy to see such debate about this (dating while separated) in my thread and in Stuck's.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
However, you cannot continue doing what clearly was not working! I think you have finally seen that!

I think what I saw was that I was not moving closer to my goal (either for saving my marriage nor making a better life for me and my boys). I saw that I had buried the bar and wasn't even looking for it. Thanks for reminding me who I was/am and I need to get back to what made me me. I was not always CIPA. I was ME, with goals, ambitions, dreams. I have had many setbacks in my life, but each one made me stronger to not just survive but thrive. I need to believe in me again. How can my boys or anyone else believe in me, when I don't. I know my boys will thank you for getting me back on track as they will ultimately benefit from that.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
She really must find out that she cannot control you and your life any longer before she will take notice and want to change what she is doing. Do you see that? As Theroadback said, she has all the power and is loving it. Don't fall for her dramatic scenes.

I think she was getting uncomfortable with the Dark/Dim that caused her to think I had forgotten about her and moved on (what she cried about the week before she moved out). I think on Sunday's call and after that, she saw that I was still emotionally there for her and ready to take her back (which I am), but probably made it seem like I was too eager/easy. I've got to be careful about that.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I do encouage you to get more involved in things besides the time you have with your boys. You need activities and time with friends.

I have been doing things for me as well - it's how it get through the time when I don't have the boys. I go to church and have joined a small group there (talking about boundaries). I also go to the gym twice a week. I try to go out with my buddies (at least once every two weeks) and have lunch with a friend at least once every two weeks. I still go to therapy every week. I've also been trying to call one of my friends at least once/week (many of my old friends I haven't talked to in years). I do plan a trip once/quarter to go visit them (I bring my boys as they all have kids the same age). So I'm doing things for me, which at times frustrates me as I keep thinking I should be doing things to save the marriage or pursue/convince my wife, but I guess doing things for me working towards those goals as well.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Too many women are out there looking for a R with a man.

Oh really, can you introduce me to any?? Just kidding.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I think as long as you are wanting to reunite with your wife, then you sure don't need to keep one on one company with any female.....even "just a friend" female. Being in a safe group of old friends is probably the best way to go. Even then, you have to be on guard b/c there is too much hanky/panky going on these days.

Most of my closest friends (known them since HS) are out of town (100+ miles away) so those are the ones I've reconnected with via phone/email. My local friends, I have a few close ones. Ironic, as prior to meeting my wife, most of my friends were females. Of course, once I met my wife, she put a stop to all that real fast. Now I do talk to 4 female friends frequently. One is the WAW, who works for me, so there is no way that will go anywhere. The other is married and I had lunch with her today and she told me she is expecting their second child. The third female is the wife of the divorced retired couple that I visit/talk to every week (they had both worked for me in a prior job). The last is the wife of one of my closest friends (they are up in CT). I do talk to several safe women to get their insight and encouragment, but there is too much at risk, besides my marriage, for anything else.

I do have a few guy friends that I hang out with. One of them races, so I'm taking the boys with me to the race next weekend.

Since I have the boys every Thurs, Fri and Sat nite, there's not much opportunity to go hang out in the bars and be tempted. At first, I was nervous about that arrangement my wife pushed for as I thought she was going to just go out partying. Now I'm thinking she was worried that was what I was going to do. But who knows what she's thinking now, maybe she is now thinking about starting the party. I will feel really crappy if she does and it will be a deal breaker. That is not the woman I married if she does that.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Hope you understand what I said about moving on with your life (dropping the rope) and yet not throwing away the possibility that some day your W may get her head straighten out and things could work out. You just don't allow that desire or hope to dictate your life any longer. You must move forward.

Sandi - I think I do understand, but it just still feels so crappy.

Thanks for checking in on me and hope to hear from you soon.

Take care
I agree- do not call her- let her come to you. Try to stay busy- make it a minute, an hour, half a day without calling her.

I'm with Sandi about dating. Don't do it. You're still married- and to be honest, your wife acts like such a victim I'm not sure that would bring her around. To me she would take it more as validation for her actions. "Poor me, look hubby is out dating!" yada yada.

You're extremely vulnerable right now and you need to be able to get yourself straight without the involvement of another person. Not fair to you- and not fair to the other person. Plus, you're still married.
""Weds nite was the last time she called. I was supportive, friendly and caring during her call (she was complaining about how the kids were behaving at her place).
I did suggest it may be related to the situation, but she didn't
agree at all (big surprise).""

Well you gave her her fix .... she reads right through that stuff this is persuing this makes her happy you still want to fix things..... and of course she did not agree, if she agreed it would have taken some of your hurt away, she does not want to do that she wants you to hurt... it makes her feel loved ...

""That was the last time I heard from her. Now many will say not hearing from a WAW in 1.5 days is not a big deal, but it's significant to me since we've had contact almost every day since she moved out.""

And you dont care if she ever calls again right?
that is where you need to be. expect that she will never call you again and be right with it.
another way to look at it is this;

you are her drug of choice.

everytime she talks to you or sees you and she finds signs of you hurting or trying patch things up

She takes a hit....
Very sad. I asked my 7 year old if he wanted to call mommy. He said "I do but she probably won't answer again" and was really sad. I said you can if you want to but its your choice. He said "No becuase she won't answer". I could sense he would be sad if she didn't answer.

Do you think I should just have him call? She had said that the parent with the kids should call since that parent knows the best time to call

Very hard

Very sad
Yes have him call. If she doesn't pick up let him leave a message.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Yes have him call. If she doesn't pick up let him leave a message.


I had them call. I didn't say anything, just let my 7 year old and 3 year old talk to her.

I am curious, should I have at least said Hi or goodnite at the end?

I was tempted to "be friendly" or as Smileyperson is coining "friendiness".

So by not saying anything, was that too Cold/Dark? Was that being the jerk, not the integrated man (ala the Spellfire Triangle)? Would have just saying have a goodnite been construed as "pursuing"?

Any thoughts/feedback? My wife had complained about how in the past I never talked to her or ignored her, that's why on Mon-Weds I tried the friendly route. Maybe I was too friendly.

Such a tough balance.

I'm really looking for some input here. When I have the kids call to say goodnite, should I at least say Hi or Goodbye? I know it would be the polite thing to do.
Yes saying Hi and Bye is the polite thing to do. Just treat her like you would a friend.

What did your son tell her? Did he say anything about missing her or that she doesn't answer the phone, etc.?
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Yes saying Hi and Bye is the polite thing to do. Just treat her like you would a friend.

What did your son tell her? Did he say anything about missing her or that she doesn't answer the phone, etc.?


Yeah, I thought saying that would be the right thing to do. Maybe it's the resentment that was building up in me, but I just wasn't in the mood to fake that I was happy to call her. I don't think I was angry, but more that I didn't want to deal with the hurt/pain/frustration. Guess I'm just tired. Or the fact that I had a pretty good couple of days (since I the boys were with me) and didn't want to get derailed.

I guess it was just "listening to the little boy in me" and being childish. I gotta keep an eye out for that.

My 7 year old didn't say much at first. I could tell he was anxious as the phone rang. He just said that he was in bed. My wife asked how his day was and even dropped how was yesterday since she hadn't talked to him (not sure if that was a dig at me, but I didn't take the bait). He answered about his field trip and where we went for dinner tomorrow. I thought it was odd how she asked what we were doing tomorrow. He told her and she just said that sounded fun. Then my 3 year old got on the phone and rambled like most 3 year olds do.

Oddly, only my 7 year old said love you when my wife said it. My 3 year old just said bye.

Go figure.

I'll make sure I at least said Hi and Bye when I call next time. I guess even a 40 year old can act very childish at times....

Now why aren't you out getting a life? I have the kids so that's my excuse, but you should be doing something better than being on this forum on a Friday nite. There, I've finally got a chance to throw a 2x4 back your way (I've got quite a collection from you over the last 5 months)

Take care Stuck, hope you figure out what to do in your situation. Unfortunately, it sounded like mine was right before she moved out, although yours has additional complications. I know if there's anyone that can work that through, it's you!
If the kids called themselves, then there is no need for you to talk to her...period, unless you have something to say to her about the kids.
Ah well I am planning to GAL. However where I am it's not even 5 yet, so I'm wrapping up a few things at work.

I do have a busy schedule planned so I'll be out there. You take care this weekend too.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Ah well I am planning to GAL. However where I am it's not even 5 yet, so I'm wrapping up a few things at work.

I do have a busy schedule planned so I'll be out there. You take care this weekend too.


DANG IT! I thought I could finally throw a 2x4 your way. Guess you'll just have to throw it back at me. DUH!

Enjoy your Friday nite! Six hours behind - isn't that in Hawaii? Must be nice this time of year. Then again, isn't it nice most of the year anyway?
It really is beautiful here. Today was a picture-perfect blue sky and blue ocean. I work about a block away from the beach, so I can see whales sometimes swimming by.

Your kids would definitely like it out here.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
It really is beautiful here. Today was a picture-perfect blue sky and blue ocean. I work about a block away from the beach, so I can see whales sometimes swimming by.

Your kids would definitely like it out here.


I don't even want to think about it.

My wife and I went to Maui for our honeymoon. I was planning our 10 year anniversary trip back there. I really hope I get that chance.

I think Spellfire is from Hawaii too - although I haven't heard from him in a while. Guess that's a good thing. He's making it.

Hard to imagine these types of heartache in a place so beautiful. I'm actually starting to struggle just thinking about it the time there with my wife. Sigh.

Enjoy your islands and the weekend when you GAL! I will enjoy mine with my boys...

Take care
Stuck-

You're in Hawaii? We went to Oahu last year. Beautiful!
It was a pretty good day with the boys, although they really pushed it when it came to going to bed.

We went bowling in the morning. We had a really good time.

My wife called us in the middle of it. Out of habit, I answered it. I gotta break that habit. She told me that a local ice cream place was giving out free ice cream between 12 and 5. I maintained a very upbeat and positive game face on during the entire call. I thanked her and then the boys talked to her. My 3 year old passed me back the phone. She said that she saw the ad late last nite, but didn't want to call that late.

This is where I know I slipped up. I should have just thanked her again and hung up, but wound up saying I was up pretty late last nite, so if something comes up late at nite, don't be worried about calling. DUH! Could that be any more needy/pursuing that that?!?!?!

I did manage to pull it back and say have a great day and ended the call.

She wound up texting me a little while later. I waited about 25 minutes to answer back. She then sent another one. I looked at it and decided there wasn't any response required so I didn't answer it.

Anyway, after bowling I made lunch while the boys played outside. While my 3 year old took his nap, I got to spend some one on one time with my 7 year old playing video games. After my 3 year old woke up, he asked about baking a cake. He did that last Weds at school, so he wanted to do it again.

I had never done that with them before so I figured what the heck, how hard could it be. We went to the store to pick out a cake mix and the stuff that went into it. The three of us made it together and while it baked in the oven, we all played in the yard. When it was done, I let the boys put the icing on it while I made dinner. I think almost 1/2 of the icing actually made it to the cake. It was a good time.

There were a few low moments during the cake baking though. My 7 year old asked why we weren't using the mixer that mommy usually used. I just said we were just using what we got. He just said oh and I heard him say to the 3 year old that mommy took it. This happened again for a couple of other things too (i.e. cake pan, icing knife, etc.) I tried not let it get me down.

The kids ate their dinner really quickly to try and get to dessert. They both said it was the best cake ever. I think that was the highlight of the day.

After baths, we played for a bit, read some books, and watched a video. It was about 30 minutes past their bed time before I actually put them to bed. We were having such a good time, I didn't want it to end as my wife is picking them up tomorrow morning.

My wife hadn't called up to that point and last time she talked to them in the morning, she had said that she didn't need to talk to them twice in the day, so we hadn't called her. When I put my boys to bed, after the needing water, then bathroom stall tactics, my 3 year old said he needed to tell mommy something. I told them that it was really late and we need to get to bed. We're going to call mommy, but no more messing around.

I was actually worried that she wouldn't be home, and the boys (and I) would be down because of it.

We called and I let the boys say hello and start talking. At the end, I did say good bye.

Now the kids are in bed.

I'm mulling over how I had gotten annoyed with boys' last stall tactic of wanting to tell mommy something. I had really gotten annoyed. Not sure if it was that I thought they were messing around or if it was because they asked to talk to her (first time ever). Perhaps I'm over analyzing it. Who knows.

So it now concludes week 7 since she moved out and 5 months since she told me she filed for divorce.

I still want her back but I know I will be still survive and thrive without her. It still hurts and I'm a little worried about tomorrow. Most of my buddies are out of town. There is one that's around this weekend, but I had seen them last Sun and Tues as well. I'm worried about wearing out my welcome so I'm hoping I'll be able to keep it together so I don't have to bug them again.

I was actually doing fine until they asked to talk to her. Why did it bug me that much?!?!

This is crap, but I'm still ok for now.



I am sooooo weak

She sent me a text about 15 minutes after she talked to the boys. I just noticed it 5 minutes ago.

It said

"Apparently (movie title) still makes me cry"

It was the movie she and I watched when we first started dating. She cried during it. I had never met a girl that was so emotional like that and it touched me but also scared me. I didn't understand it but I think that's when I started to think of her of more than just a holiday fling

Anyway, I wound up replying

"Awwwwwww" 3 hours after she sent it, but 5 minutes after I saw it. I thought about appologizing for how long it took for me to reply, but rememberd Sandi's challenge of trying not to say sorry.

In hindsight I shouldn't have replied but it really touched a memory in me. We had talked about that moment a few times since the bomb. Don't know why she brought it up tonite again.

Guess its her controlling to pull my strings again

Or it was her way to reach out to me to reconnect

Or it was the only thing good on tonite

I sooooo want to call her and tell her I love her

Good thing its so late, that I'm sure she's sleeping

Argh!! It still hurts!!!
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
I sooooo want to call her and tell her I love her




Don't do that, man! Believe me...she already knows how you feel!
She came to pick up the kids this morning. We were out playing in the driveway (baseketball and baseball). My wife was looking at the flower beds and started making comments about how the weeds were getting out of hand and they really needed work. I just said that the boys and I had dug them out a few weeks ago, but they are really coming out with a vengence. Then she made some more comments about them. Not sure if she was looking to pick a fight, or what, but I didn't take the bait. I just said that it takes time. She then said that I only have them half the time. I just dropped it at that point and shifted the conversation to something that the kids were doing.

Since it was so early, the grass was covered with dew so her sandles and pants legs got soaked. When we all came in, the kids showed her the cake that we had made. She suggested we could all eat it together this morning before they left, so we each had a piece.

After the boys were done eating, she and I chatted in the kitchen. I asked her about child support (we have a hearing scheduled on June 23rd and she was suppose to ask her lawyer to draw something up so we wouldn't have to go down). She said that she was frustrated with her lawyer as he hasn't returned her call. I told her I talked to a lawyer friend (didn't say I retained him) that said what we could do as well as the number that was worked out.

She then said that she didn't trust me and had felt like I had taken advantage of her during the years we were married. She wants to talk to her lawyer as she definitely doesn't trust me now.

I told her that's it's disappointing to hear her say that as I know that I will always take care of the boys and treat them fairly. She said that she trust me with respect to the boys but its everything else relative to us. She says that we seem to be getting along really well now, but doesn't trust that if in a couple of months I get a girlfriend, it can all change.

I just looked at her with a smirk and just said "Couple of months?"

She just went on and said how in the past there were things that made her not trust me and she felt that I didn't trust her with my controlling nature and all my questions. I just said I'm not going to point by point on the past, as that is the past. I did trust you and it's unforunate that you didn't feel that way.

She said that she still feels that I don't understand her call from last Sunday (crying and saying that she just can't trust me ever again and just doesn't want to be my wife anymore). I told her I understoond what she said. It didn't change how I felt nor what I believed, just as what I say doesn't change what she believes nor what she feels.

I told her that regardless, I do thank her for waking me out of my funk as I've been doing more things and enjoying life more than I have in years. It's unfortunate that it took something like this to wake me up. I know that the boys and I will be happy. If that means that there will be a new Mrs CIPA in the future, so be it. It's not what I want as I still believe if we work on us that it will work, but she is chosing not to.

She said that we tried during counseling all last year (with the guy that I fired). I said that we weren't both working on it as last year I didn't understand the problem, so we would both work on it. Then post bomb, when we went to counseling, I didn't feel that we were both working on it then. She mumbled something where she agreed with that.

She then said something about how I told her that if she didn't let go that she would never find love or happiness again. She said that she's been hurt so long that it's just not going to go away like that. She said its not like she sits around thinking about it all the time.

I told her that I working with a therapist has really helped me with my hurt and resentment. Hopefully that's something that she would find time to do for herself.

Then I slipped up even worse.

I told her that I still do believe if we both try as that is what I want. It's not because of just the kids, but it's because of how I feel. The door is unlocked right now, but if she chooses to lock it, then that's her decision. I've moving on knowing that I've done everything that I can do. She started to cry at that point. We were standing really close facing each other and I wound up putting my hands on her sides. She put her arms around my neck like she used to and we hugged very tightly.

She smelled really good and it's been 7 weeks since we had hugged.

We didn't talk anymore of the relationship or that type of stuff after that.

We chit chatted about some other stuff and then she started saying she was hungry. I said perhaps she should get going as it was getting late (she was at the house for a couple of hours - usually it's only 15-20 minutes). She said that she was starving. I asked her if she didn't have plans for breakfast, perhaps we could all go to breakfast. She said that would be fine.

We went to breakfast together and we just chatted some more. When we walked to the resturant, I did touch her back gently. As we were waiting to be seated, she leaned in a few times to say something and would press herself lightly against me. We had a good breakfast and really seeemed to get along well. I told her that I was really busy next week, but asked her if she would like to get together for lunch the following week. She said that we should be able to. As we walked out, she said her hips were bothering her. As she was in front of me as we walked out, I touched her hips lightly and just jokingly asked her what she was doing that made her hips hurt. I didn't think she liked what I was joking about, as she said that she had told me how she had tried to go jogging at the park, but the gravel and hills made it really tough.

On the way home, she complained about her elbow so I rubbed it lightly for her. We were still just joking and chatting lightly.

Just as we were getting home, my 7 year old said something, in a joking manner about women. My wife then joked, who said that. Did you get that from daddy? My 7 year old said yes. I was pissed as I had never said anything like that. I turned to say something to my 7 year old as she jokingly tapped the back of my head. Unfortunately, as I was turning, she slapped my face instead. She said opps, she was sorry. I told her that I was OK, but told my 7 year old that was not funny as what he said was not appropriate.

She tried to joke that I looked guilty. I told her that I was mad that my 7 year old would even joke about something like that as it was completely unappropriate. It was very awkward as we got back home.

I got out of her truck and she went to get into the driver seat.

I leaned in and gave my boys hugs and kisses goodbye and that I will see them on Weds.

Her window was open and I wound up leaning in through it, she leaned out back and we hugged goodbye through the window.

It really seems to happen when the two of us do have a good interaction, our kids does something that distracts or turns it negatives. I'm not made at our kids, but just annoyed at the entire situation.

The kids part of it is normal, unfortunately, our relationship is so bad that it causes problems. Not the kids fault. It's ours.

I'm working on my end of it. She given up on hers.

Really crappy.

I know many people have said that I need to stop the touching stuff. So I know the 2x4's will come flying.

It's just that when she was standing in front of me crying, I was thinking if she was just a friend crying in front of me, what would I do. I would hug her.

This is so crazy.....
This trust thing is really bugging me. She said she stopped trusting me a while ago. What the heck do I do about this trust thing?

I want to call her and talk about it but what the heck is there to talk about?

This just gets more and more complicated...
Might she be projecting a little?

I think Coach could help with your sitch...
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Might she be projecting a little?


Projecting what?
This is really crappy. Its a beutiful day out and most of the people I see on Sun are out enjoying it. I can't get a hold of anyone and I'm really feeling crappy after this mornings interaction.

I so want my family back

I gotta find something to get my mind off the fact that she has the boys for the next 3 days
Can you go for a hike? Not sure what your landscape is but that sure helps me here in CA.
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Might she be projecting a little?


Projecting what?




On the trust issue.
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
This trust thing is really bugging me. She said she stopped trusting me a while ago. What the heck do I do about this trust thing?

I want to call her and talk about it but what the heck is there to talk about?

This just gets more and more complicated...


Man, this thing ain't even close to being over. Give her some time and space to work on her own issues...like the trust thing. You can't rush it, and you can't say something that'll make it better for her. She has to work through this stuff herself. Just be there if she asks you to be...otherwise, give her time and space. If you do interact, just be validating, strong, personable and caring...without surrender!
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Might she be projecting a little?


Projecting what?




On the trust issue.


Remember, as a DAM, I still don't follow
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Can you go for a hike? Not sure what your landscape is but that sure helps me here in CA.


I wound up going for a drive in my IROC convertible. It was a beautiful day. I talked to by aunt while I was driving (handsfree). It made me feel a little better. My aunt told me the same as many hear are. Accept the fact that she's not compnf back to get on with my life. She didn't say give up, but not to sit on the sidelines and idle. She also said don't go looking for someone new but live life for now and accept whatever life brings me

I also ran into my neighbor showing his 2010 Camaro at at local car show.

Now I'm back home at least I've backed away from the edge with a little more clarity.

I still don't understand the projection of trust so u could use some help there

Thanks
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Can you go for a hike? Not sure what your landscape is but that sure helps me here in CA.


I wound up going for a drive in my IROC convertible. It was a beautiful day. I talked to by aunt while I was driving (handsfree). It made me feel a little better. My aunt told me the same as many hear are. Accept the fact that she's not compnf back to get on with my life. She didn't say give up, but not to sit on the sidelines and idle. She also said don't go looking for someone new but live life for now and accept whatever life brings me

I also ran into my neighbor showing his 2010 Camaro at at local car show.

Now I'm back home at least I've backed away from the edge with a little more clarity.

I still don't understand the projection of trust so u could use some help there

Thanks



Sounds like a good day.

On the trust issue, and this is really based on shallow observation, do you think she is trustworthy?

Like I said, I think someone like Coach could help you navigate this...as to how you address that issue (probably be as trustworthy and safe for her as you can). Do you know what specifically her trust issues are with you? Do you think you have violated her trust in some way, recently or in the past?

I wondered if it is an area you are deficient or she is and is projecting on to you.

But, really, I'm no expert.
I think the major trust issue I violated with her is her heart. She trusted me to be vulnerable and had made me promise her that I wouldn't hurt her a couple of months after we started dating. She felt that I did honor my wedding vows of love honor and cherish.

At a more "lower level" trust, she doesn't know why all the cars are in my name. And had thought I had a girlfriend (I did NOT) since I was so "disinterested" in her. We have talked about that in the past. I traveled often for work and would have late nite meetings without much notice. So I can see how she was suspicicous.

She also thought I was surfing the web for porn and having an internet thing as I was on the computer so much late at night due to my work.

She also said today that I ad taken advantage of her in the past so she thinks I will do it again

I'm sure all of us can be suspicious of others if their minds are set on it. I just don't know what to do about it.
I'm wondering what your take is. How specifically did you take advantage or violate her trust? Sorry, maybe I should read back...is it just that you didn't appreciate her enough, worked too much, took her for granted?
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Originally Posted By: sandi2
As you have time, you can figure out how to "show" her without words and getting a personal life while you are dropping the rope and moving forward may sound as if you are not loving her or standing for your M, but you can. GAL and dropping the rope does not change your beliefs and your standards. It does not change your desires.



I certainly hope so as I still don't understand how do I show her that I still love her while I'm moving forward.


Okay, I'm getting rather frustated myself b/c I can't seem to put into undertandable words what I am trying to get across to you. Let me put it this way. Stop trying to show her that you love her....period! The more you "try"......the more the stitch gets into a mess. I want you to stop thinking about how you can prove her wrong about your love, etc. Frankly, I do not think you could prove to her anything at the point b/c she does not want to be proven wrong. I know that may sound crazy but she is so hung up in her justification of being hurt and being "right" about the stitch that and she is not going to listen or see anything that is contrary. You are not only spinning your wheels in trying to prove love to her, but you are making matters worse. In order to get to that place where you can see some ways to show her love, you must apply all of the DB techniques you've been given in the book and here on the board.

If she has any sense at all, she will be able to see for herself that you love her. Right now, she is too busy having a big pity-party and making you feel as guilty as sin over every pain she ever had. You are giving way too much of your energy into thinking "how" you can "show" her your love. That is exactly what is making you look unattractive to her. All the things that you have been told about GAL, detaching, looking attractive, being unavailable, etc. is what you need to be working on. I wished I had not even made that statement about showing your love b/c it puts you into a tailspin. And that tells me that you are not hearing all this other advice; you are only hearing how you can prove your love. That is what you are hung up about. So, that makes me frustrated! It would be to your best interest to forget about showing love, at this time, and think about other things. If you will notice in that quote that I said "as you have time". I meant that after the R inproves (providing that it does) you will be able to show her your love......but this is way, way down the road from now.

This quote shows what I am referring to:
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I think she was getting uncomfortable with the Dark/Dim that caused her to think I had forgotten about her and moved on (what she cried about the week before she moved out). I think on Sunday's call and after that, she saw that I was still emotionally there for her and ready to take her back (which I am), but probably made it seem like I was too eager/easy. I've got to be careful about that.


As long as you think like this.....you have not begun to drop the rope! You are suppose to make her feel uncomfortable!! As long as she feels good about what the stitch, then you are way off base. Can't you see that as long as she knows that you are emotionally there for her.....she will continue to dangle you at the end of "her" rope? I can't seem to get you to understand that you can continue to love her, but you can't continue to make her think that you are still there for her and will take her back at a moments notice. Remember, it is when they think they "can't" have the LBS, that the WAS begins to take notice. Apparently, I seem to be talking in circles to you and need to start all over, but I don't think I have the energy.

You see, as long as she knows that if she keeps the crying up long enough, she will break you down emotionally....that re-assures her that she can continue to play these same old games. THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO! She needs to be convinced that you are not available to her b/c she messed up when she walked out on you. She must learn that she makes mistakes and that she hurts other people. As I told you before, she is not the typical WAW. She is in your daily life way too much for a typical WAW. She is wanting to manipulate you, where a typical WAW would not want to be anywhere around you and want you to move on without her and leave her alone. I realize that I'm repeating myself, but I don't know what else to say when you keep doing the same things over and over......or asking the same questions.

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Sandi - I think I do understand, but it just still feels so crappy.


Of course it does. I hear the LBS say that over and over again and it makes me wonder if they thought it should not hurt so badly. Did they expect something different or did they think the feelings would change after a week or two? I am not being critical of your pain, but I am saying that this is a fact of life that you must accept and it will not go away until you start GAL. Go read all the other people who learned this lesson. They said the same things about how crappy it felt, but when they started appling the DB techniques and especially GAL and detaching.....then they begin to feel better.

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I said you can if you want to but its your choice. He said "No becuase she won't answer".


So, why didn't you let it go? Why did you keep on and end up calling her? I know....but do YOU know. Then you wondered if you should have at least said good-night to her. UGH! crazy Listen, I know how Stuck saw it and told you to do like you would a friend, and ordinarly I would agree, but in this case......you cannot allow any chance for getting into a R talk. Talking on the phone to her will open a door for a R talk. Beside, I believe you were thinking about yourself more than the boys. If you weren't, you would have dropped it when he said he didn't really want to phone her. You can argue about it, but it is clear to me and I've seen this too many times in other LBS's stitch. They use the kids as an excuse to call the spouse. I believe if he wanted to talk to her, he would not have to be reminded. If you remind him and he still doesn't want to.....why push it? Even a 7 year old knows how to protect himself from possibly being hurt again.

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Do you think I should just have him call? She had said that the parent with the kids should call since that parent knows the best time to call


Until the initial part of the S is over and the two of you can't say hello and good-bye without getting into a R talk, then yes, the kids should just talk. BTW, about what she said? That is also another way of "controlling" and keeping tabs on the S. Or, didn't you realize that? Would be nice if you happen to be too busy and "forgot" to call before the boys went to bed. She has already as much as told you that she doesn't care if she talks to them or not. Doesn't sound right for a mother to feel that way.....but shows you how self centered she is now.

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So by not saying anything, was that too Cold/Dark? Was that being the jerk, not the integrated man (ala the Spellfire Triangle)? Would have just saying have a goodnite been construed as "pursuing"?


You are either dark or not. You are so hung up on what she said you were like before she left that it is keeping you from being able to apply DB techniques. She told you herself....it is too late to do those things now. So, why are you so worried that you are proving her right whenever you do not call, etc? The time to have shown her that you were the opposite man from who she described was before the M broke up. You could stand on your head trying to prove otherwise now and it would still be "too late" in her opinion. That is why we have been trying to tell you to drop the rope. You cannot drop the rope and still play the part of the lovie-dovie husband. It will not work until you "et that"!

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Any thoughts/feedback? My wife had complained about how in the past I never talked to her or ignored her, that's why on Mon-Weds I tried the friendly route. Maybe I was too friendly.
mad

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I'm really looking for some input here. When I have the kids call to say goodnite, should I at least say Hi or Goodbye? I know it would be the polite thing to do.


You treat her as a friend when you can. This is not the time (IMHO) b/c you can't seem to be able to stop at being "friends". You two are newly separated and it is too early to expect to be able to treat everything as "friends". Not calling and not saying hello/goodbye is one of those things. If she catches you on the phone with one of her looooong R talks, remember what I told you? Tell her you don't have time to listen to all of that stuff again and/or you have to go and hang up. Would you tell a "friend" that? No. But....right now, you can't always be like a friend with her. It is good to use the "frienship" measuring stick as a guide, but there are times such as this that you would be walking into a trap. When you get to the place that you can actually say hello/goodbye to her in a chipper voice that shows no sadness, etc., and can controll any R routes, then it will be safe to do that. Until you reach that point, I would say not to take those chances. You are still too vulnerable.

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"Apparently (movie title) still makes me cry"


Now watch this.....she is setting a trap! This is her sign that she wants a R talk. She is snaring you into her trap to call her back.

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Anyway, I wound up replying


Sucker!!

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In hindsight I shouldn't have replied but it really touched a memory in me.


Yep, she knew it would trigger a menory. She knew exactly what she was doing.

Don
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't know why she brought it up tonite again
.

Oh, pllllllease!

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Guess its her controlling to pull my strings again


You said it!!

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Or it was her way to reach out to me to reconnect


No way! Stop thinking like that! You are in a fantasy world if you allow yourself to think that way. You are setting yourself up for more disappointment.

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I sooooo want to call her and tell her I love her


You do and I'll come through this computer after you! Have some backbone and pride! Stop being her puppet.

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After the boys were done eating, she and I chatted in the kitchen. I asked her about child support (we have a hearing scheduled on June 23rd and she was suppose to ask her lawyer to draw something up so we wouldn't have to go down). She said that she was frustrated with her lawyer as he hasn't returned her call. I told her I talked to a lawyer friend (didn't say I retained him) that said what we could do as well as the number that was worked out.

She then said that she didn't trust me and had felt like I had taken advantage of her during the years we were married. She wants to talk to her lawyer as she definitely doesn't trust me now.


No use in going into all that I could say, but do you see where she throws in that jab about her not trusting you every chance she gets? Now, she is even frustrated at her lawyer for not returning her calls!! Tell me, does she try to control everyone in her life?

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I told her that's it's disappointing to hear her say that as I know that I will always take care of the boys and treat them fairly


mad Now I do feel like coming through this computer! Why would you tell her something like "it's disappointing to hear her say that"? Let me tell you hear and now......she will have no respect for you as long as you continue to make responses like that when she cuts you down. So, stop it! I am getting sick of it just reading how often you say crap like that. It is time to man up!!

She went on and on with the same old crap that she has been over a hundred times and you stood there and took it. And don't hand me this stuff about wanting to be polite! It is not about being polite....it is about having some self respect and acting like a man. If there is ever a time for you to start treating her like YOU are the man.....it is now.

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I told her that I still do believe if we both try as that is what I want. It's not because of just the kids, but it's because of how I feel. The door is unlocked right now, but if she chooses to lock it, then that's her decision. I've moving on knowing that I've done everything that I can do. She started to cry at that point. We were standing really close facing each other and I wound up putting my hands on her sides. She put her arms around my neck like she used to and we hugged very tightly.


mad mad

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She smelled really good and it's been 7 weeks since we had hugged.


I think I'm going to puke.

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We didn't talk anymore of the relationship or that type of stuff after that.


Well I guess not. There wasn't anything left to say!

The rest of that post just made me sick, so I won't read any farther. All I can say is that you will have to start all over from this point.







Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
I'm wondering what your take is. How specifically did you take advantage or violate her trust? Sorry, maybe I should read back...is it just that you didn't appreciate her enough, worked too much, took her for granted?


My take is the traditional I worked too much and took her for granted. I focused on the things vs giving her myself. Someone said it early, as a WAW, it would have taken so little to make her happy but I didn't get it then. I get what she wants now, but she says that she's too hurt and doesn't trust me and doesn't want to be my wife anymore because it was so hurtful

I had beat myself up pretty bad about it. I'm trying to work through my own guilt. I'm not doing a very good job at it but am still trying.

Thanks for the time and support
I believe 100% that if it could have worked then, it can work now. She is making a decision. There is no reason for her to reject the possibility of R unless she has her own issues (which clearly she does).

I was an almost WAS, but if H would have put half the effort of you guys on here are doing, I would have been eager to see action and give it a chance.

I have my own issues. Some people perceive me as insecure because I don't shut the door on my M. But, we each have our own path.

You know, if you were more like my H, you could turn it around and tell her 101 ways she didn't make it worth it for you to put the energy and you are moving on.

She has major trust issues to work through and I concur with Sandi, there isn't too much you can do about that.

The hardest thing is to choose. Hand her cr*p over to her and take responsibility for YOUR part and go about your business OR try to be the guy she's saying you weren't and hope she believes it. I have been somewhere in the middle and it hasn't really accomplished much 5 months into separation.

Today, I am picking the things H has pointed out that I know are true and working on them (serves me anyway) and I am doing the 180s that work for me. Sometimes I'm thinking of what H would think but that is subsiding thankfully.

YOU...you've got to change your name from "confusedinpa" and move toward "figuringitoutinpa" or something like that. wink

Oh, I say it would have taken so little for H to "make me happy." But, come on now, that's easy to say in retrospect. And, most happy people will tell you that no one can "make you happy." She has some big fish to fry that have nothing to do with you IMO.

There is also a big issue that I've recognized in most of these sitches which is sort of like your paradigm with family...they see you through a certain lens and it is hard to divert from that. WAS can't really reinvent themselves with the S around. They want to be and feel like a new and improved person and they see you as fitting with the old them. I think that is part of why it is so important to work on YOU because a) that is necessary for your survival and b) you have an opportunity to reinvent yourself and inspire your ex.

I never seem to be at a loss for words here. I feel so much empathy for everyone. It is so easy to think our feelings are so unique but we are all in the same boat.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Let me put it this way. Stop trying to show her that you love her....period! The more you "try"......the more the stitch gets into a mess. I want you to stop thinking about how you can prove her wrong about your love, etc. Frankly, I do not think you could prove to her anything at the point b/c she does not want to be proven wrong

It would be to your best interest to forget about showing love, at this time, and think about other things. If you will notice in that quote that I said "as you have time". I meant that after the R inproves (providing that it does) you will be able to show her your love......but this is way, way down the road from now.


OW! OW! OW! My head!

Just kidding Sandi, thanks for sticking with me to beat this one into me. I understand and will work on keeping focus. I see your point on how she's not looking to be proven wrong in her decision to file for divorce and moving out. She's looking for everything to reinforce that she made the right decision.

Hopefully we can get to the point where the relationship improves.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
You see, as long as she knows that if she keeps the crying up long enough, she will break you down emotionally....that re-assures her that she can continue to play these same old games. THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO! She needs to be convinced that you are not available to her b/c she messed up when she walked out on you. She must learn that she makes mistakes and that she hurts other people. As I told you before, she is not the typical WAW. She is in your daily life way too much for a typical WAW. She is wanting to manipulate you, where a typical WAW would not want to be anywhere around you and want you to move on without her and leave her alone.

What you said about the typical WAW is exactly what my WAW friend at works says - she wished her husband would find someone else and leave her alone.

With my wife being a non-typical WAW, it had seemed like at times that she wants some pursuit, but only on her terms. My therapist said that it seems like she is setting it up so she can continue to reject me. Guess I'm still blinded by love and I've been refusing to see/believe she's no longer the woman I married. But I guess that's the heart of the problem, as a WAW, typical or not, she is no longer the woman I married.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Of course it does. I hear the LBS say that over and over again and it makes me wonder if they thought it should not hurt so badly. Did they expect something different or did they think the feelings would change after a week or two? I am not being critical of your pain, but I am saying that this is a fact of life that you must accept and it will not go away until you start GAL. Go read all the other people who learned this lesson. They said the same things about how crappy it felt, but when they started appling the DB techniques and especially GAL and detaching.....then they begin to feel better.


I guess the "crappiness" is how I had 3 days with boys where it was less crappy, but everytime she takes the boys, the crappiness returns. I think today in particular was hard as the four of us spent so much time together this morning and then when I went to church, the service was about Divorce. It was so hard, that I didn't/couldn't go to my small group session nor to the gym (which was the routine I had been using to get through Sunday). Compounding that, the friends I normally talk to or see on Sunday were all out of town.

I felt a little better once I got out of the house and spent some "me" time besides staring at the empty house. Guess that's the "power" of getting a life.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Do you think I should just have him call? She had said that the parent with the kids should call since that parent knows the best time to call


I actually wound up calling tonite to say goodnite to the boys as she hadn't called and it was past their "normal" bedtime. After I was done talking to the boys, she got on the phone and I just said, in a cheerful, upbeat voice as possible, "Goodnite" and hung up. She wound up emailing me a little later with some tactical stuff. I just replied with a Thanks for the FYI and told her that our youngest needed milk for Monday.

I think that's the "right" level of response from me, for now.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
You are either dark or not. You are so hung up on what she said you were like before she left that it is keeping you from being able to apply DB techniques. She told you herself....it is too late to do those things now. So, why are you so worried that you are proving her right whenever you do not call, etc? The time to have shown her that you were the opposite man from who she described was before the M broke up. You could stand on your head trying to prove otherwise now and it would still be "too late" in her opinion. That is why we have been trying to tell you to drop the rope. You cannot drop the rope and still play the part of the lovie-dovie husband. It will not work until you "get that"!


I think that's the core of the issue that I didn't get. I was so hung up on my 180 that I couldn't let go of that to drop the rope.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
You treat her as a friend when you can. This is not the time (IMHO) b/c you can't seem to be able to stop at being "friends". You two are newly separated and it is too early to expect to be able to treat everything as "friends". Not calling and not saying hello/goodbye is one of those things. If she catches you on the phone with one of her looooong R talks, remember what I told you? Tell her you don't have time to listen to all of that stuff again and/or you have to go and hang up. Would you tell a "friend" that? No. But....right now, you can't always be like a friend with her. It is good to use the "frienship" measuring stick as a guide, but there are times such as this that you would be walking into a trap. When you get to the place that you can actually say hello/goodbye to her in a chipper voice that shows no sadness, etc., and can controll any R routes, then it will be safe to do that. Until you reach that point, I would say not to take those chances. You are still too vulnerable.


Thanks, I think I got it now and hopefully I can prove it through actions, rather than just the words. I appreciate the clarity

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
"Apparently (movie title) still makes me cry"


Now watch this.....she is setting a trap! This is her sign that she wants a R talk. She is snaring you into her trap to call her back.

Quote:
Anyway, I wound up replying


Sucker!!

Quote:
Guess its her controlling to pull my strings again


You said it!!


You are sooo right on that one. After I sent the reply, I felt like such and idiot for sending it.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
No use in going into all that I could say, but do you see where she throws in that jab about her not trusting you every chance she gets? Now, she is even frustrated at her lawyer for not returning her calls!! Tell me, does she try to control everyone in her life?

mad Now I do feel like coming through this computer! Why would you tell her something like "it's disappointing to hear her say that"? Let me tell you hear and now......she will have no respect for you as long as you continue to make responses like that when she cuts you down.

I actually thought this trust thing was a relatviely new thing that she brought up. In the past, the entire pity party was all about the hurt. She had said that she didn't trust me with her heart (as part of the hurt pity party), but today was the first time where she started on about not trusting me that I would take care/responsibility for the kids. I got very annoyed about it and perhaps I didn't get it in my journaling/post, she was very aware that I'm annoyed about that. I didn't say I was disappointed by that, that was just how I put it in the post.

I hadn't thought this morning's conversation was that bad, but I guess that's what's good about this forum, and why I try to journal what's going on. By having people look from the outside with all the life experience really helps. I reread my post after I read your's and I see how I really came accross weak and needy. I thought there were times where I held firm, but I guess those were too far and few.

I am trying to dance a fine line as we have a child support hearing coming up in 3 weeks so I'm trying not to get her fighting mad (she can, according to my lawyer, get up to $2500/month if she reall presses it - right now we're around the $1500 number), but I do see how that "playing nice" may not be helping my longer term cause.

Thanks again for hanging in with me. Hopefully I won't get so many "mad/mean" faces in the future.
"I actually thought this trust thing was a relatviely new thing that she brought up. In the past, the entire pity party was all about the hurt."

Nah she's brought up the trust issue before. It's weird when the WAS brings up stuff like that.

All of the things that sandi's been bringing up are the same things I brought up since day 1. Put your foot down and be firm.

It's just that sandi wields a bigger stick!
Hey Kittyfish,

Yes I am in Hawaii. The weather now is BEE-U-TI-FUL! Too bad the sitch isn't. : )

Sandi's stick is more like a club!

Like many nites, I've really been giving what's been posted.

I'm still trying to digest it, not from an understanding of what everyone is saying, but having the faith/belief that it is the right thing to do.

This is a tough strategic decision that I will only get once chance at it.

I do appreciate all the thoughts/support that people offer. I know I can be frustrating as I may seem to be go in circles

I really have a lot to think about

Thanks
I've been spending a lot of time mulling the play along nice loving approach that I think I've been using. In the past 5 months since she dropped the bomb that she filed (just 1 week after she said she had seen a lawyer to file bomb), I've been trying to convince her that I am trying to understand better to be the loving husband I want to be (my 180).

Just 1 week ago, she said the same thing as she said 5 months ago.

Not sure how much clearer it can be that its not working. Perhaps it was too many backslides or that she hasn't been convinced it's real/lasting, or she just doesn't want to see/believe in anything that could cast doubt in her decision. It doesn't matter, she still hasn't changed her mind. She's moved out for 7+ weeks now.

I've tried Dark/Dim (often backsliding into nice guy) and shifted into friendly but its still not making a difference

My biggest fear of shifting away from my approach is that it will "validate" in her mind that she was right that it wouldn't last.

Any suggestions on how to mitigate that?

I'm involved in a session this week at work to talk about what makes people change. Typically the first step is pain (significant emotional event), followed by despair the discovery that constructive change is possible

Right now she is in the last step, that a divorce is the constructive change (where I'm in despair) I need to pull her back into a signifcant emotional event.

I had tried to do that to show her that I can be a loving husband. In hopes of making her remember our dream of happily ever after to want it again. She still doesn't want it right now

Maybe its a fear/trust thing or whatever. Since she's been doing so many non-typical WAW things, I thought there was hope that she was still looking for hope as well. I don't know why she's doing what she's doing, but I guess that's not the point

All I know, which is what many here have told me, I can't continue to do what I'm doing.

I have to dance around the child support hearing coming up but I need to change what I'm doing to create a severe emotional event for her.

So I think I've "reasoned" my way to changing my approach. Now I need to process all the input from here to get to what it will look like.
Quote:
My biggest fear of shifting away from my approach is that it will "validate" in her mind that she was right that it wouldn't last.


I think we have discussed this before. It is something that almost every LBS says. That fear holds them back for accomplishing what they could a lot sooner. As I told you last time, "now" is not the time to show her what a great husband you are. It is past that point. I want you to understand that it is not the "time frame" for proving you are not who she thought you were. Maybe, hopefully, someday you will get that chance......but it is not now. Can you understand that and can you accept it?

Quote:
I've tried Dark/Dim (often backsliding into nice guy) and shifted into friendly but its still not making a difference


I believe one reason some LBH's get confused about the Dbing is b/c there are a couple of ways to go with this. One way is to drop the rope and go dark and allow time to heal the hurt. This allows the WAW to "miss" her H and the M. It is hard to do when there are children, but it can be done. In some cases (but not all) a LBH can be all friendly and nice when he communicates and sees the WAW. This is a painful process and takes a long time to win the trust of the WAW. This is not the way to go in every case. I belive you have been getting the two processes confused and trying to do both. One day you are all dark and call yourself dropping the rope (but you never have as of yet) and the next day you call yourself being a friendly "loving" husband.

With most WAW's the "lovingly" part does not work. With the typical WAW, the lovingly would turn her off. Although I do not think your wife is the typical WAW, I would not try to show her just how lovingly I could be b/c she would not receive it nor respect it the way you want. It is very difficult to try to explain and I think I've tried before, so I ask that you take the word of MWD and trust the DB techniques.

Answer me this, haven't you tried to show her in a loving way that you are no longer the H she claims has hurt her so badly? Yet, it has not worked during this time apart, so why can't you turn lose of that way of thinking and do what is suggested? I believe you come off as being a doormat in her eyes and she is feeding off the power of all this control.

I am a believer in "tough love" in a lot of cases. I believe that your stitch is one of those cases. However, as long as you believe it will do more harm than good.....it will not work. You must believe in the techniques you are applying.

Quote:
My biggest fear of shifting away from my approach is that it will "validate" in her mind that she was right that it wouldn't last.

Any suggestions on how to mitigate that?


See my point? You are terrified that she will convince herself that what she thought about you is true. I think you have made this same statement before (or else I've just read it so many times from other posters), and you are still afraid. Why can't you be the best man you can be and if that does not meet with her approval, then too bad--b/c nothing would meet her approval at this time! Personally, I think that is where she is at right now. No man could not meet her expectations! She is into the "blame game" and nobody is going to take that away from her.

Quote:
Right now she is in the last step, that a divorce is the constructive change (where I'm in despair) I need to pull her back into a signifcant emotional event.


You cannot pull her back into anything! You have no control over her. The only person you have control over is yourself.

Quote:
I had tried to do that to show her that I can be a loving husband. In hopes of making her remember our dream of happily ever after to want it again. She still doesn't want it right now


That's what I've tried to tell you. So, will you believe me now and stop trying to be this "loving" H and start doing the other things we've discussed?

Quote:
I don't know why she's doing what she's doing, but I guess that's not the point


You could drive yourself crazy in trying to figure all of that out. Just start with the fact that you are S and don't try to figure her out. She may not be typical, but she is still a WAW and most H's cannot figure them out.

Quote:
I have to dance around the child support hearing coming up but I need to change what I'm doing to create a severe emotional event for her.


This makes twice you have referred to causing an emotional event for her. What are you talking about?

BTW, why did you bring up the subject of the child support when she was by your house and you were in the kitchen talking?

Check on you later,
Sandi
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I have to dance around the child support hearing coming up but I need to change what I'm doing to create a severe emotional event for her.


This makes twice you have referred to causing an emotional event for her. What are you talking about?

BTW, why did you bring up the subject of the child support when she was by your house and you were in the kitchen talking?



Sandi - what I mean by emotional event is something that will shake her up. Right now I feel she is just getting more comfortable with what is going on so I need to do something that will make her uncomfortable. I feel that when I was Dark/Dim and she had called when I was out with friends, it had made her uncomfortable to the point where I got the "have you given up?" phone call about 2 weeks after she moved out. This is when I slipped back into the nice guy mode and she felt back in control. So I need to get her back to a certain level of uncomfortableness.

I brought up the child support discussion on Sun as she was suppose to talk to her lawyer earlier that week so we can avoid spending a day in court (as well as paying $5K in legal fees for the day). So I wanted to know what was going on with that.

I'm still trying to get my head around what the shift from my current approach will look like. I don't want it to be the cold jerk (I don't think that's what your suggesting) but more of the "integrated man". I'll post more on that later to get some feedback

I had a good session with my therapist today about forgiving myself. We also talked about how I still lacked boundaries (part of my issue where being a nice guy is easier). She agreed with what you offered as well. In fact she asks me what you and others posted on this forum (funny as I want to start charging her for sharing that).

Thanks again for the continued support. I see I've been so afraid of making mistakes that I've been making even more mistakes.
I'm still getting my head around what the "shift" in dynamic that I'm going to create will look like so I would be interested in getting some feedback:

Situation 1 - We have a family outing together (i.e. baseball, soccer games, etc.).

Me: Upbeat, positive, attentive and caring.

Situation 2 - Me/She saying goodnite to the boys

Me: Friendly, upbeat, positive hello and good nite. That's it. No chit chat of from me asking how things are going. If she ask how things are going with me, I would stay positvie and upbeat in my response (i.e. Great or Really good or Hectic as I've got a lot planned, etc.)

Situation 3 - She calls me for something tactical about the kids

Me: Polite and courteous, but strictly business

Situation 4 - She emails/text me about something tactical about the kids

Me: Wait at least 30 minutes to respond, but thank her for the FYI. If there is a specific question (i.e. what time to pick up, etc), I will respond just to the question, but just strictly business, no chit/chat.

Situation 5 - She emails/text me about chit chat/nonsense (i.e. saw this and thought it was funny, saw this movie and it made me cry, saw this on sale and thought you would like it, it's a bad day at work, etc.)

Me: No response unless there is a specific question.

Situation 6 - During a call, she gets emotional relative to our situation

Me: In as loving and caring way as possible say, "Wife, I can't keep doing this. As your husband I want to love and support you but it really hurts to do that since you've decided you no longer want to be my wife"

Situation 7 - If she asks why I'm so cold to her again

Me: In a loving and caring way "Wife, I will treat with respect as the mother of our kids, but it really hurts to do anything more than that since you've decided you no longer want to be my wife."

Any thoughts/comments?
CIPA...you are more focused on your W than ever stop it. Stop trying to figure your a out. Your focus should be on you and your kids period. You are never going to get your M back by trying to figure her out and doing what you THINK she wants or needs.
Volleydog,

I know I'm focused on my wife as I do love her and want to save our marriage relationship. However, I do know that is not what she wants now so there is nothing I can do to work on that marriage relationship.

When I outlined the various situations/responses, I was trying to make sure I understood what Sandi and other's have been telling me to break away from the "play nice loving" approach. I'm most particularly concerned with situation 1, 6 & 7. I think the others are pretty straight forward, but wanted to at least vet them out for understanding.

I do appreciate your frank feedback as I know it's just concern that I'm heading down the wrong path or focused on the wrong things.

The last 3 weeks have been extremely tough for me. It was actually tougher than the first 4 weeks than where she moved out and even tougher than when she hit me with the bomb on Jan 9th. I do believe that up till that point I had more hope but now there is so little.

I still believe and it is still what I want, but as you can see from my up/down posts, I'm really trying to sort things through in my head. My therapist has helped, as have my friends and the people on this board.

I also been posting a lot of my train of thought as my heart is telling me to pursue and win her heart back, but I know that I can not listen to my heart. If it was that simple, all the flowers I had brought her and the appologies and the romance and words of love I tried to pursue her with in the first few weeks after the bomb in Jan would have worked. It hadn't. Even a fool who is blinded by love sees that. Perhaps it hasn't been long enough or she wasn't ready for it as she needs to heal first. It doesn't matter. It didn't work and that's not what she wants right now.

I'm putting my faith that the DB/DR way is my last resort. I'm planning on rereading that book when I'm done with the N.U.T.S book.

Thanks for trying to keep my head focused.
Your responses to Situations 1-4 seem okay.

Situation 5, when she's saying she's having a bad day at work, I think it's okay to sometimes acknowledge with "sorry to hear that". Just not every time it's brought up. You still want to be friendly to her to a point after all, not an @$$.

Situation 6 and 7. If she starts going off again, just say, I am sorry you feel that way. And that's it. Actually for Situation 7, I would have just laid into her and get that weight you have off your chest. How she keeps putting herself up as the victim, yet is the one who is controlling everything. But that's just me.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Situation 6 and 7. If she starts going off again, just say, I am sorry you feel that way. And that's it. Actually for Situation 7, I would have just laid into her and get that weight you have off your chest. How she keeps putting herself up as the victim, yet is the one who is controlling everything. But that's just me.


Thanks for the input Stuck.

Would you suggest that I just hang up after I say "I'm sorry you feel that way"?

I just realized that it's getting late and it's past the time she had called in the past. The "call/text/email" traffic has really dropped off since she said last Sunday that she doesn't want to be my wife anymore (same as what she said in Jan). She had called last nite around 11:30 with a tactical issue. I kept it very business and to the point. I tried to be polite and courteous, but I suspect that she will still find something to take issue with (as Sandi pointed out, nothing I do will be right in her mind).

I know I can't call her. It's crazy since she has said a couple of times over the last couple of weeks that I should call her if I want to.

It doesn't make sense. She's a WAW but in such a non-typical WAW way. Maybe she is starting to be more typical......

I have to put my faith that the DB/DR way is the right way....
"Would you suggest that I just hang up after I say "I'm sorry you feel that way"?"

No just say I'm sorry you feel that way, I've told you how I feel. And that's it.

Honestly, if it was me, I would have told her that I'm sorry you feel that way. And as you recall you mentioned that you had other issues that contributed to this that do not include me (her father, etc.) so I hope you get help in dealing with your issues so that you can be happy. Just be happy rather than blaming everyone for your unhappiness. You complain about what others have done to you, and you're right, those things happened. But you should start looking at the mirror before you start blaming others for how you feel now. You are out of the house as you wanted and you still get angry at me. For what? You have the ideal life you asked for now and you're still mad and unhappy. As much as you complain about being controlled by others, it is you who is the controlling one. You complain that our kids act up when they're with you, but rather than admitting that it's because of your decision, you blame it on them, etc. etc.

Actually that's similar to a conversation I had with my W while we were separated. After that, she was a whole lot nicer. She still plays the victim card "we shouldn't have gotten married", I should have left sooner, etc. But then I tell her if you're that unhappy and REALLY believe that it's the marriage that's made you unhappy, then leave.

She's still here and on pretty good terms...as a roommate.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
"Would you suggest that I just hang up after I say "I'm sorry you feel that way"?"

No just say I'm sorry you feel that way, I've told you how I feel. And that's it.

Honestly, if it was me, I would have told her that I'm sorry you feel that way. And as you recall you mentioned that you had other issues that contributed to this that do not include me (her father, etc.) so I hope you get help in dealing with your issues so that you can be happy. Just be happy rather than blaming everyone for your unhappiness. You complain about what others have done to you, and you're right, those things happened. But you should start looking at the mirror before you start blaming others for how you feel now. You are out of the house as you wanted and you still get angry at me. For what? You have the ideal life you asked for now and you're still mad and unhappy. As much as you complain about being controlled by others, it is you who is the controlling one. You complain that our kids act up when they're with you, but rather than admitting that it's because of your decision, you blame it on them, etc. etc.

Actually that's similar to a conversation I had with my W while we were separated. After that, she was a whole lot nicer. She still plays the victim card "we shouldn't have gotten married", I should have left sooner, etc. But then I tell her if you're that unhappy and REALLY believe that it's the marriage that's made you unhappy, then leave.

She's still here and on pretty good terms...as a roommate.


Stuck - I had that similar conversation with my wife when she first moved into the spare bedroom (about 6 weeks after dropping the bomb). She had gotten really upset about it and I know the way I handled it did not help my cause. While I may have gotten the message right, it was not delivered in a loving, compassionate way. I was upset/mad as she had surprised me by moving out (she said she needed some alone time to read so I gave it to her. I found out she moved into the spare bedroom when I went to bed). I was upset and hurt.

Now she throws up how I try to psychoanalyze her and be her therapist every time I mention about her needing to look upon herself.

I now we always want our situations to be different but you should be glad that she is still in the house, even as a roommate. I would take it like that right now. I knew it would be a lot harder to save the marriage once she moved out, but I didn't want her to feel trapped.

Periodically I do regret deciding to tell her that I love her enough to not stand in her way of doing what she feels she needs to do. I didn't want her to feel trapped in the house, as I thought that would not allow her to heal her hurt. When I do have regrets, I remind myself that she had scheduled an appointment to meet with a realtor to sell the house. I told her 2 days before the scheduled appointment. So all her energy was focused on getting out, not healing. I could have let her try to sell the house, and that would have kept her in the house at least another 6 months, but I felt that if I didn't save the marriage at that point, it would have been even more traumatic with the kids as then they wouldn't even have the only home that they have known as a stability point. A strategic decision. I hope I didn't sacrifice the war to win that one battle....

I think during the first four weeks of setting up her apartment, she used that as a distraction from starting any healing. Now I don't know what is stopping her. But that's not for me to worry about, I know that.

Anyway, I know that was a lot about her so I know I need to stop before the clubs and 2x4's come out.

Thanks for the input to make sure I understand what DB/DR Dark needs to look like.

Best of luck in your situation
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Confused, I think you are too hung up on going "dark" and do not fully understand the concept. Being dark is not having contact with them. How can you listen and show compassion if you are going dark? I think it would be better for you to think in terms of being emotionally detached. JMHO.


Sandi - I pulled this back from Stuck's thread as I didn't want to wind up hijacking his thread.

I think I'm starting to understand better now. I should not initiate any contact with her (Dark), outside of things related with the kids. If we do have contact because of the kids, keep it strictly business.

This doesn't mean don't be cordial and polite (saying Hi and Bye). Also, being upbeat and positive is ok as well.

If she starts attacking/blaming stuff from the past, that's where I should draw my boundary and can say "I've appologized for those in the past and I've am drawing what I've learned from them to work on me" (or is that too much). Or should I just cut it off to "I've already appologized for those in the past.". Or do I add some validation "I can see how you've felt hurt by those things in the past and I've already applogized for that" Or "????"

I know that I should try to be the one to break off contact/call

You are right, I think I've really missed the concept/point of Dark.
I don't know everything about DB but it seems to me that Dark is Dark. No contact. Since you have kids that's not possible so I would say dark except to do with the kids. But that's just my opinion. Sandi knows more than I do about this stuff.
Kittyfish,

I agree that Dark is harder when there are kids involved. I don't think exposing the kids to a no contact scenario is very good for them - (ie having the kids go out to the driveway by themselves when she shows up to pick them up). So when we are "together", I plan on being the warm, caring, attentive person I want my boys to be.

That's my opinion but I'll wait for Sandi and others to chime in on that
Quote:
I agree that Dark is harder when there are kids involved. I don't think exposing the kids to a no contact scenario is very good for them - (ie having the kids go out to the driveway by themselves when she shows up to pick them up). So when we are "together", I plan on being the warm, caring, attentive person I want my boys to be.


I think that's the way to go.
Volleydog,

Thanks for the feedback and support. The last 3 weeks have been particularly tough on me (not that the first 5 months wasn't rough).

I think I'm getting a handle on my approach but am definitely open to more feedback

I'm trying to get back to DB/DR basics. I had outlined goals earlier but will reread them to make sure they are still appropriate

Another element I have come to terms with, that I recently realized, is trying to forgive myself for the hurt/pain inflicted upon my family. I've talked to my therapist on this as well as my friends. Last Sunday, the church service was about divorce and also talked about forgiveness. My therapist tells me that I should start each day by saying out loud that "I choose to forgive myself". My friends have been very supportive as they say I've done/doing all that I can do but she is choosing to close the door.

I'm really struggling with letting go of the guilt to forgive myself. Perhaps that the same issue my wife is experiencing in letting go of her hurt. Maybe she's doing that so she won't feel the guilt. But that's what she needs to work on.

Part of my struggle with letting go of the guilt is when I see the boys. When they are upset about the situation, I'm reminded of the guilt. When they are happy and carefree, I feel guilty that they can't be like that all the time.

But I guess that's why my therapist talks about forgiveness as a choice. I'm working on it but its a tough choice to live
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
I don't know everything about DB but it seems to me that Dark is Dark. No contact. Since you have kids that's not possible so I would say dark except to do with the kids. But that's just my opinion. Sandi knows more than I do about this stuff.


Kittyfish,

In your opinion, how would you have reacted to Dark. In Stuck's thread, you sound alot like what my wife has said.

It's now the second day that I haven't talked to my wife. She had the kids call me last nite and tonite to say good nite, but she didn't get on the phone like she used to.

I'm so torn as she has told me twice in the past couple of weeks that if I want to call her I should. But this is so anti-DB/DR Dark.

I know one of the issues we had in the past is that she would say something and I would twist it around in my mind to mean something else and we would be completely on the wrong page.

Right now, my goal is to make it until Thurs without talking to my wife (I will see her on Thursday when we take our 7 year old to get his cast taken off).

Thanks for your support
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Confused, I think you are too hung up on going "dark" and do not fully understand the concept. Being dark is not having contact with them. How can you listen and show compassion if you are going dark? I think it would be better for you to think in terms of being emotionally detached. JMHO.



Looks like you missed that she seems to have been telling you to work on emotionally detaching, not going dark. They are very different.
Originally Posted By: aliveandkicking
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Confused, I think you are too hung up on going "dark" and do not fully understand the concept. Being dark is not having contact with them. How can you listen and show compassion if you are going dark? I think it would be better for you to think in terms of being emotionally detached. JMHO.



Looks like you missed that she seems to have been telling you to work on emotionally detaching, not going dark. They are very different.


Ack!

Did I get that wrong? I thought she had suggested going dark

I think her post in page 16 said that. I reread it and now I'm not so sure

Hopefully Sandi can clarify

I'd you get a vance can you take a look at it and see what you think?

Thanks
sandi meant to go dark and not call your W when you felt like it and you not answering her back unless it involved your kids.

Simple.

Only when you're face to face, keep things upbeat, friendly and lively.

This was so that you wouldn't get suckered in to your W's blame game.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
sandi meant to go dark
....

This was so that you wouldn't get suckered in to your W's blame game.


If that's why, how does that help get her?

I really don't see her missing me as she felt so alone over the last 3 years that she is used to not being with me (especially since I travel for work so much)
Quote:
If that's why, how does that help get her?


It helps YOU...You'll never be comfortable with yourself if you can't detach from her. You are way too focused on her and how to "win" her back you seem to be forgetting about you. If the only reason you are doing what you are doing is to get her back IF you get her back I highly doubt the changes will stick.
Dark wouldn't have worked with me because at the point I left I just didn't care period.

I'm not sure exactly what would have worked with me after I had left.

Before- small lasting changes that I could notice- not just words of what he was going to do, affection, not being treated like a sex object. Him going to counseling one of the 25 times I suggested it.
Kittyfish,

I appreciate the candor. As Volleydog pointed out, I see how Dark helps me, but recovering the relationship doesn't seem to be obvious

From your comments, I understand what my wife said before she left. She felt that my changes were just physical. Perhaps she didn't feel that it was coming from the heart but more just actions.

Sounds like your husband didn't even do Dark (from your nasty emails comment)

My wife has said that she had tried so long to get my attention, that she fells like she has just emotionally moved on. Her analogy was like back in HS, if you were interested in someone, eventually you just run out of energy to keep trying.

Is that how you felt?

Thanks
Absolutely. Did she tell you at any time she was unhappy or wanted you to change?

I did tell my exhusband that many times. Perhaps that is the difference between me and a regular WAW?

He did try GAL I guess- he got more busy with his hobbies and even got babysitters on his nights with the kids to go out and do things. But since his hobbies were a problem to begin with in our marriage- GAL wasn't appealing to me.
She tried to tell me but I didn't understand what the problem was. All last year when we went to marriage counseling together, I would tell her I loved her, I was happy and didn't know what the problem was. She would then say either she knew she loved me but didn't feel it or she didn't think I was happy. I told her I didn't understand what she was trying to say and we never got on the same page. This went on for a year. Until she dropped the bomb

Since then we switched counselors and I did my 180 right up to when she left. That's when she would say she sees the physical changes and feels that I'm such a better person but still didn't feel "that she could love me like a wife should".

It hurts that is the finality of this. I continue to go to therapy, but now it feels like its more grief counseling and working on forgiving myself

I know I need to keep working on myself and Dark can help protect myself emotionally.

Any suggestions on what may have worked for you?
Posted By: drew7 Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 06/10/09 05:39 PM
[/quote]
I am just thinking like a female. You guys may be a DAM, but we are just plain crazy in how we think! Stop and think about this. If there is no other man in the picture, why would she want to D you? Oh, I know all those old excuses she is using, but I don't buy it. If you have not seen any of the MLC symptons in her (and I don't know that I have) then what is the deal with her? Women don't usually get a D unless there is another person, abuse, MLC, or just can't take living with no love in return. She may think you don't "listen" to her, etc., but she knows you LOVE her. So again, I ask you.......what is the real deal with her?

Talk later,
Sandi

[/quote]

Wow.. fabulous advice there.. it makes sense in my situation too as I none of those appear to apply. Anyway, I am relatively new to this (see I can't even quote correctly!) but I must say that is some of the best advice I've heard about WAW's so far..

Drew
I'd stay Dark to protect myself emotionally right now.
hey cnpa just catching up, I wanted to comment on this:

Me: Wait at least 30 minutes to respond, but thank her for the FYI. If there is a specific question (i.e. what time to pick up, etc), I will respond just to the question, but just strictly business, no chit/chat.

If you make a pattern of this she will she right through it. In fact I think she knows you are doing it on purpose right now. She is taking this as more pursuing.

In my book this is game playing, I understand why you think you should do it but Its very fake .... its not you.

To make things simple just treat her like a friend. Before you react to something simply ask yourself would I react this way towards a friend.

If a friend sent you a text would you wait 30min to reply?

just reply when you want.

I know this is a small issue but its kind of an example of how you handel some things...you seem to handle things based on you wifes reaction.
Forget about what she thinks and be you.
Dont be who you think she would want it does not work that way.

She wants you, the guy she married, its not the guy you are now and its not the guy who neglected her.

Every time you do things out of character it confuses her.

When she text you I bet she says to herself... well he is going wait to respond about a 1/2 hour to try get a rise out of me ... thats fine, just shows he is still thinking of ways tto try and get me back, trying to play hard to get when he is not......

I had an issue come up i wanted to share with you....

I was leaving for my vacation without my wife.

When I was leaving she left at the same time, she just got into her car and left.
She did not say anything; have a safe trip, bye, f@#$ you, nothing in fact she did not even look at me.
I would have said something before....I would have been pissed (well I was pissed )before and called her on it.

Instead I did nothing, I left on my trip. about 2 -3 hours into my trip she sent me a text.

HER Howz things?

ME: great almost there.

HER: I know you were in a hurry but it was rude of you to leave like that.

I said a few choice words to myself like wtf....but i saw the bait and i replied:

ME: I am staying at such such hotel (wanted her to know in case of anything)

HER: oh

ME well, I am going to eat now so I will talk to you later.

HER: ok.
Oh and sandi...you crack me up... some of stuff you say I cant help it. I find myself; saying that is soooo true... but its the way you say it that makes it funny.....
"It hurts that is the finality of this. I continue to go to therapy, but now it feels like its more grief counseling and working on forgiving myself"

Okay, you've had the problem all along which is why you're having such a hard time to detach. You have an all or nothing mentality which is holding you back. You feel that if you don't do anything, you've given up and if you actively do something (pursue) you're working on your marriage.

The thing is that when you don't do anything YOU ARE WORKING ON YOUR MARRIAGE! When you detach you are working on your marriage. When you go dark, you're working on your marriage. You haven't given up so stop thinking like you have.

You've gone dark for what...3 days and you complain that your M is over? C'mon. Try saying that to the people who were waiting for 3 years without a response from their spouse and who have just heard back from them wanting to work on the M.

You go to church, so you believe in God. Well, you can't see God, touch Him or hear Him. But you believe in him. That's what you have to do hear. You give all your burdens to Him and have FAITH that things will work out. You are having a very hard time letting go.

Since you saw the movie Fireproof, that's a perfect example. His W file for D, they didn't talk to each other even though they live together. But he detached and left everything up to God. It's scary to let go. But you have to get there somehow.

You can do it. Let her go emotionally and let the chips fall where they may. You are not her, you can't figure out what she's thinking. so stop saying "i don't know/understand why she..." Clarity will come soon enough when the time is right. You can do it.
Well, so much for dark

She text me to work out the time to take my 7 year old to get his cast off tomorrow. I text her back the time and she called me right away

I kept it strictly business

Then she mentioned she talked to her lawyer about child support. All along she has said she had never filed anything and that her lawyer said he hadn't. Today she said that her lawyer did just to get a date. Then she said that he wants to see what number my guy came up with so we can negotiate from there. I told her that I'm fed up with her guy. First he says he and she didn't file anything. Then she says he recommended against filing. Then he files something anyway.

I told her I don't trust him as he seems to be just running up billable hours. The number is strictly a formula. There is no negotiations. I gave her the numbers my guy used to come up with the number. I said if there was any issues, I will not deal with his BS as I don't trust him and I will get a lawyer to deal with his BS

I reminded her that I was going to treat her fairly and will take care of the boys. I don't feel like her guy is trying to be fair and I'm sure she wouldn't want to be unfair.

She started crying saying she felt like I was yelling at her. I told her that I'm very frustrated about the legal BS and don't trust her lawyer. If she should know anything by now, is that I will take care of the boys

She said if I was tired of it, why don't I sign the divorce papers and get it over with.

I told her I was frustrated about the legal BS but that doesn't change how I feel and what I believe. I want the legal stuff dealt with as we have enough stuff to deal with right now

At that point I just told her that she should call her lawyer before it got to late.

She then text me back about chit chat stuff. I responded as I would to a friend. I feel like my wall held up this time
Great job. You see how she changed it to you "yelling at her". She again turned to assume the role of the victim. She totally doesn't see it.

I don't know, maybe you should be upfront and just tell her what her issues are if she's not going for help. Not necessarily now, but soon. My W wasn't getting help either for her issues, just kept heaping them onto me. So I stopped her and put my foot down on HER problems. But rather than saying that they were random problems, I had facts and events that backed them up. She actually listened then.
Originally Posted By: theroadback
hey cnpa just catching up, I wanted to comment on this:

Me: Wait at least 30 minutes to respond, but thank her for the FYI. If there is a specific question (i.e. what time to pick up, etc), I will respond just to the question, but just strictly business, no chit/chat.

If you make a pattern of this she will see right through it. In fact I think she knows you are doing it on purpose right now. She is taking this as more pursuing.

In my book this is game playing, I understand why you think you should do it but Its very fake .... its not you.

To make things simple just treat her like a friend. Before you react to something simply ask yourself would I react this way towards a friend.

If a friend sent you a text would you wait 30min to reply?

just reply when you want.

I know this is a small issue but its kind of an example of how you handel some things...you seem to handle things based on you wifes reaction.
Forget about what she thinks and be you.
Dont be who you think she would want it does not work that way.

She wants you, the guy she married, its not the guy you are now and its not the guy who neglected her.

Every time you do things out of character it confuses her.

Theroadback,

That's a very good point you brought up. Dark is so out of charachter for me. I can see it being applied relative to me not initiating calls/contact right now (although it is definitely not in character for me prior to her falling off my radar).

People are saying that Dark will protect/help me with detachment, but when I started dating, we talked or were together all the time. Perhaps it was an unhealthy way to start our relationship, as I can see it created a significant dependency issue in our relationship. I think she started seeing it a few years ago and I am just starting to see it now. The book Love Without Hurt really helped me understand it better.

I really like the strategy of how I would respond/react if it was a friend - relative to responding to text/calls. I would respond when I had time. So if I was at my desk, I would respond right away. If I was in a meeting, I would wait till the end of the meeting to respond (unless it was a boring meeting, then I may text right away).

Not sure if that would really work/help in my situation though, but feel that would be more in character/normal for me.

Anyone else have comments on this?
Originally Posted By: stuck808
"It hurts that is the finality of this. I continue to go to therapy, but now it feels like its more grief counseling and working on forgiving myself"

Okay, you've had the problem all along which is why you're having such a hard time to detach. You have an all or nothing mentality which is holding you back. You feel that if you don't do anything, you've given up and if you actively do something (pursue) you're working on your marriage.

The thing is that when you don't do anything YOU ARE WORKING ON YOUR MARRIAGE! When you detach you are working on your marriage. When you go dark, you're working on your marriage. You haven't given up so stop thinking like you have.

Stuck,

I guess I really have been posting alot and you have really been the rock and consistent supporter for me. What you pointed out (all or none mentality) has always been an opportunity for me. I typically living in the extreme ends of spectrums. My "gray area" skills are very learned so that they are not very natural for me. It works well for me during business negotations as those are very tactical and analytical, so there is very little stress for me in my mind so I can manage them extremely well.

This is where it fails me as, like most people, under stress they resort to their natural tendencies - which is at the extremes. I keep trying to remind myself through reading/posting/prayer of what I need to do, but it is so hard as it does not come natural to me.

I do know that doing nothing is something. And working on me is working on the relationship as I need to be the best I can be to be in the type of relationship I want to be in. I just want it to be with my wife.

I just want it all back to "normal" so bad, as do all of us here do.

Thanks for being there for me
Hey no problem. I and others can see the hope you have in your M which is why I'm here.

You should check out the convo going on in my thread now. I've got the tag team of Mr. and Mrs. Coach giving input which is very cool of them.

We'll get our D's busted yet my friend!
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Great job. You see how she changed it to you "yelling at her". She again turned to assume the role of the victim. She totally doesn't see it.

I don't know, maybe you should be upfront and just tell her what her issues are if she's not going for help. Not necessarily now, but soon. My W wasn't getting help either for her issues, just kept heaping them onto me. So I stopped her and put my foot down on HER problems. But rather than saying that they were random problems, I had facts and events that backed them up. She actually listened then.


Thanks Stuck,

This is one conversation, even though it was about a really difficult subject (child support), I feel good about it. I think I held onto my NUTS (I will not be treated unfairly).

I do have to be careful how I do handle it, as she had, in the past, said that she felt that I was lecturing to her or trying to "beat her into submission" with my words. I tried to be careful to not repeat myself (I will NEVER forget how Sandi beat that into ME!) and if I felt that I was heading down a path in the conversation that I was repeating myself, I would say something like "I don't have to explain how I feel about it any further as I've already told you how I feel about it".

When she started to get quiet/sad, I did notice this time as I notice she has done this before when she felt I was just hammering her with my words again. I would just stop talking and wait for her to say something.

When she tried to bait me with stuff from the past a couple of times, I would either say that we had discussed that stuff again and going over it again really won't be productive. Or I'm not going argue with her about that stuff as I don't see how it really helps resolve the issue that we were talking about.

I don't think I have to call her out on her issues again (not letting go of her hurt) as I had done that before and she even brought it up on Sunday during our conversation about how I said that before. I don't think she believes it, but I know she remembers.

I did think it was intersting how after that call, she text me about chit chat stuff (complaining about work), where she hadn't initiated anything like that in a couple of days. Not sure if she was feeling bad, or was trying to play me or what.

I did follow what was suggested is respond to her like I would respond to a friend.

One thing was in one really long text, the tail end of it got cut off.

I then sent her a text message telling her it got cut off, but guessed at the ending.

She said that I got/guessed it right

I told her that I guess I must be getting better at reading her mind

She the responded maybe

I think this is the balance that I am going to create. Dark (no initiation of contact). If she initiates, respond like a friend. If she starts rehashing the past/blaming, I will take the position that we had talked about all that all ready.

I will see her tomorrow when we take my 7 year old to get his cast off (he broke his wrist 3 weeks ago). I will be the upbeat/positive and the best CIPA I can be. I don't know if I should just treat her like a friend or continue to be warm/affectionate limited to non-sexual touching like I had been the last 3 weeks.

Any thoughts?
Originally Posted By: stuck808
We'll get our D's busted yet my friend!


Stuck,

From your lips to GOD's ears!

I'm actually heading over to your thread now as I've see quite a bit of traffic on it of late!
You know your wife really gets me in her victim mode.

Ok, so I get that her sister and her dad hurt her- and that you hurt her in the marriage but geeze, can she get over herself??

I suffered some bad stuff growing up- mental, sexual, emotional and verbal abuse- and I certainly don't think I sound like a victim. I do talk about it from time to time- but I don't wear it like a badge or stone around my neck.

She really needs some help- have you considered that she just might be a narcassist?? Because everything is about her!

Let me tell ya- all that bad stuff? Made me strong- and as wierd as this sounds- I am really okay with who I am right now- and that stuff turned me in to the KF I am today.
Kittyfish,

I'm really sorry that you had such a burden to live through as you became you.

Its really remarkable how differently people handle their life experiences. You sound like you have really gathered strength and charachter through yours

I am seeing more of how my wife, externally would portray a very confident, independent woman but inside she was a very scared little girl. I know that she wanted to be loved, but who doesn't. She was also very insecure, but refused to acknowledge it.

I remember how a week or so after we started dating, she had drank too much and gotten sick. She then started crying that I won't call her again and would leave her.

I think that touched me as I know my fault is that need to feel needed to take care of someone. In a sense, that's where my wife was perfect. She was from a small town in the country. She just moved out on her own for about 6 months (first time) when I met her. She had not really experienced the variety of life like I had (I had been on my own since 18, when I left for college).

When I wound up neglecting her (giving her things, instead of feeding her heart), I think she started to feel abandoned again, like when her father left. In this case though, she tried to do something about it. However, she couldn't get me to understand, until she felt it was too late

I know she has some father issues as she had said that one of the reasons why she wanted to marry me was that she felt I was stable, responsible, ambitious and would make a good father. She says I'm still those things but just doesn't trust me anymore

So this is brings us back to where I'm at

I do love her but don't know how to get her trust back. Every time we deal with the divorce legal BS, I feel it drives us further apart.

I feel that if we can just spend time on us, without the distractions, we could find us again.

So, while I'm waiting, I know I need to make sure I am the best CIPA I can be. For me, for my boys and hopefully us.

She didn't call last nite, nor did the boys call her. They didn't ask and they were having so much fun being home again that I didn't want to take away from that experience

I will see her today as we will take our 7 year old to get his cast off. I know I will be the best CIPA I can be when I do see her

So for know, I will continue Dark, but be friendly when we are together
I still have daddy issues, don't get me wrong. I don't think I'm a victim or that I portray that image, but yet I do still have those issues. Wanting to hear words of affirmation from my spouse.

Dr. Phil says it takes 1000 attaboys to make up for one "You're an idiot" and I think that's somewhat true.
Kittyfish,

I had heard that saying as well

What, if anything, would it take to win back your trust in this type of scenario?
This is going to sting- but to be honest I think she's feeding you a line- the more this goes on and due to the divorce filing- talks about CS. I think she knows it makes you feel guilty and she says it to make you feel that way.

It's either that or she's an extreme drama queen. I honestly can't say what else you can do that you haven't tried.
Kittyfish,

What do you mean she is feeding me a line?

I do appreciate your candor. Thanks
Well, I'm saying she says those things to get a reaction out of you- to get your pity- your attention etc. She wants you to feel guilty again.

She needs a fix- she makes you feel bad- she feels good. Make sense? When you feel guilty it's like she's getting a shot of some drug she needs.

Have you researched personality disorders?
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
Well, I'm saying she says those things to get a reaction out of you- to get your pity- your attention etc. She wants you to feel guilty again.

She needs a fix- she makes you feel bad- she feels good. Make sense? When you feel guilty it's like she's getting a shot of some drug she needs.


Exactly. That is why you follow Sandi, Stuck, Coach, PDT, mine and other's advice and set your boundaries and stick to them. Don't let her manipulate you into a R talk about the past. Just do what you have been doing and say "that is the past if you don't want to let go of it that's your problem" and move on...

You're doing great! Keep enforcing those boundaries. She will eventually realize that you're not willing to "get in the mud".

PMA
Had a good time while my wife and I took our 7 year old to get his cast off. We laughed and talked and I did the eye contact thing that was covered in Stuck's thread

Good interaction until I got home

There was a letter from her lawyer requesting a hearing for custody

It was a WTF moment

I know I should have calmed down before I called but I called her to ask what was going on. She said that was sent out before she talked to him yesterday. I told her it was dated yesterday

She said that her lawyer now understands what we are trying to do so she's got it under control

I told her that I don't trust her lawyer and feels like he is taking advantage of her and I.

She said that she didn't trust me. I cut her off and said that we talked about that already but what we are talking about right now is what her lawyer is doing

I don't know what he is trying to do but I had thought she said she was going to be fair about this but I don't feel like I am being treated fairly.
If she can't get him under control I will get a guy to get this straightened out

She said that she doesn't want me yelling at her. I said was frustrated about her lawyer and wasn't yelling at her. She said it felt like it.

She then said she had enough stress from work and this situation that she doesn't want to deal with all this

I told her this is stressful for all of us

She said that she can't take this anymore and is hanging up

I think it is truly over. I held onto my NUTs but think I lost the war

Right now I don't care

I'm mad and angry that this situation spiraled out of control so fast

I will have the boys call her to say goodnite as I do not want to punish the boys over it. It will be tough for me to stay friendly but I will try
You should have called her out on it and told her to tell you the truth. She was retreating into the "you're yelling" mode. When she said she was hanging up, tell her that it was in her best interest that this L doesn't keep taking away money that is hers. Maybe try spinning it to see how she could benefit.

I would get your L to protect YOU first and foremost though. Your W isn't even thinking straight. She just wants to stay in her land of make believe and is probably just trusting everything this guy is telling her. He can probably see that she's easy to take for a ride.

Do what you need to do.
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
Well, I'm saying she says those things to get a reaction out of you- to get your pity- your attention etc. She wants you to feel guilty again.

She needs a fix- she makes you feel bad- she feels good. Make sense? When you feel guilty it's like she's getting a shot of some drug she needs.

Have you researched personality disorders?


Kittyfish,

I haven't researched personality disorders, but I think from tonite's conversation with her, I don't think that she will be able to make me feel guilty any more.

One of my boundaries has always been if I'm being treated fairly. I had always thought she had, right up to dropping the bomb on me. Although in hindsight, I had some resentment building up in me over the last few years. I had noticed everytime there was something that was wrong or if I made a comment asking why something wasn't quite right, it was always my fault. I actually told her at one point that I felt that she always twist things around to my fault so I felt that there was no point in even me making a comment.

In retrospec, I should have quieted the little boy in me and we should have talked that one out, instead of "pouting" and not making any comments/talking for a while.

Anyway, I know I made a mistake of not waiting till a little later before calling her. I was just floored as I felt like she had lied to me in yesterday's conversation about what was going on relative to the divorce legal stuff.

I'm sure she is fuming right now and really wants me to just sign the paperwork to get this over with. I had thought about calling her, but know that there really isn't anything to say while we are both this worked up.

I'm sure she will call her lawyer tomorrow to get this straight. I asked her that I do want a copy of his request to the court to cancel the hearings as we had agreed.

This is exactly why I tried for the two of us to reach agreement on custody and child support before she moved out. I didn't want this muck to keep us at opposite ends. A divorce is about distruction and confrontational. I knew that we can't rebuild a relationship that way. I tried to be respectful and straight forward, but I do have to draw a line when I feel like I'm not being treated fairly. I will NOT compromise my NUT.

I had the boys call her tonite to say goodnite. At the end, I got on the phone and just said "Have a goodnite". She just hung up without saying goodnite.

What's the real shame about this is that we were on a speaker phone, so my 7 year old said why didn't she say goodnite. That wasn't very nice. I just shrugged and said, let's watch our show so we can get ready for bed.

Another thing that my 7 year old mentioned was how he and my 3 year old had been asking about coming back home early or visiting me, and she kept saying no. I asked him how it made him feel. He said sad. I told him that I would love for him to visit/see me anytime and he shouldn't be afraid to ask because he is worried that the answer may make him sad.

I guess Stuck was right, it does get worse....
Originally Posted By: stuck808
You should have called her out on it and told her to tell you the truth. She was retreating into the "you're yelling" mode. When she said she was hanging up, tell her that it was in her best interest that this L doesn't keep taking away money that is hers. Maybe try spinning it to see how she could benefit.

I would get your L to protect YOU first and foremost though. Your W isn't even thinking straight. She just wants to stay in her land of make believe and is probably just trusting everything this guy is telling her. He can probably see that she's easy to take for a ride.

Do what you need to do.



I did tell her how I felt the lawyer was just trying to rack up billable hours to blow through the ratiner. She said that there wasn't anything that she could do as it was non-refundable. I told her that I talked to a lawyer about that and it was not true. Non-refundable retainers are under review in our state whether it is enforceable so there are ways to get the money back.

I do have a lawyer that is going to protect me - he actually mentored her lawyer (they are in different firms).

I was tempted to call my lawyer to just deal with it, but still didn't want to let her know I retained someone. I want her to think that I'm still trying to work with her because I trust her. If this doesn't play out over the next couple of days, I will throw that out on the table.

I think she is afraid that I will retain someone as she knows that I have the means to really drag this thing out. I won't though, as I don't want to spend all the money just to make it hard. I just want it to be fair for the boys in this totally unfair situation.

Craziness...
I've calmed down a bit now. I just realized that I need to stick with my original strategy - get through the legal/financial mumbo jumbo relative to her filing for a divorce.

I will maintain my NUT that if I don't feel like I am treated fairly, I will "man up".

I will not be continued to be dragged into the past blame game.

I will continue to be a friend when we are in contact (although with this most recent interaction, it may be never).

I will remain Dark - will not initiate contact unless its related to the kids.

The issue I need to think through is how do I regain trust? I've read in a number of post, it comes down to consistent changes. She has lost trust in me, relative to, trusting me with her heart. How the heck do I regain that type of trust?!!??!
Cipa,

In my opinion she's lying about the attorney. She's pretending he's not doing what she's asking him to do so she doesn't have to listen to it from you. She's paying this guy- he works for her- and he's doing exactly what she's asked him to do.

She's keeping you close enough- she wants to be "friends" through this divorce. That is why she is playing the good guy here and making him the bad guy. Let her know if she wants to divorce you have no plans on being her friend.

PLEASE talk with your own lawyer before you end up getting the shaft. That's what she's setting up to do, IMO. Please get some legal help.
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
Cipa,

In my opinion she's lying about the attorney. She's pretending he's not doing what she's asking him to do so she doesn't have to listen to it from you. She's paying this guy- he works for her- and he's doing exactly what she's asked him to do.

She's keeping you close enough- she wants to be "friends" through this divorce. That is why she is playing the good guy here and making him the bad guy. Let her know if she wants to divorce you have no plans on being her friend.

PLEASE talk with your own lawyer before you end up getting the shaft. That's what she's setting up to do, IMO. Please get some legal help.


I agree. Looks like she's not being upfront.

CYA!!!

PMA
Kittyfish and PMA_Baby!

Thanks for looking out. I know that is a hazzard I need to watch out for that I'm so blinded by my feelings and zeal to save the marriage that I lose sight of protecting myself

I'm going to run through with my lawyer before I sign anything

We're actually back to "artificial harmony" mode. We talked this morning (I called and handled it like a friend call) to see how she was doing. She talked about work and about a bad dream she had and various other non-Relationship things. I just listened (ie from the NUTs book). We joked about a couple of things.

She then text me a few pics and we "texted" back and forth a bit about funny things

So I will see what she comes back relative to getting her lawyer under "control"
Please protect yourself!
Thanks Kittyfish

I will do that

Thank you for caring
Posted By: Coach Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 06/12/09 03:12 PM
Quote:
One of my boundaries has always been if I'm being treated fairly


That can be very unhealthy. How do you decide if you are treated fairly? Do you treat everyone fairly? Who judges you? Define fair. Do you think the world treats you fairly?
Do the work on yourself CIPA. You constantly look to find out what is wrong with your W and if she would just fix it then everything will be fine for you. Seek first to understand then be understood.
Originally Posted By: Coach
Quote:
One of my boundaries has always been if I'm being treated fairly


That can be very unhealthy. How do you decide if you are treated fairly? Do you treat everyone fairly? Who judges you? Define fair. Do you think the world treats you fairly?
Do the work on yourself CIPA. You constantly look to find out what is wrong with your W and if she would just fix it then everything will be fine for you. Seek first to understand then be understood.


That's a very interesting question. My definition of fair...

Dang it - just when I thought I had defined a NUT

I will have to think about that as in retrospec, I don't feel like this situation is fair at all to the kids but I also know its not fair to "force" her to stay.

I'm open to other thoughts/opinions on fairness
Is there any reason why you called her? If it was just to talk, you really shouldn't have done it. It's almost condoning what she did the other day.

Maybe your W is bipolar.

But irregardless of that, keep taking care of yourself and your kids.
Hey CIPA,

I just had a revelation on my own post about compassion that Coach was able to help me out on. Since you had questions about that before, I thought maybe you'd like to check it out.
Hey stuck and CIPA,

sorry to jump in but this conversation gets at something I have been struggling to understand, sort out for myself lately. I see you both are dealing with it in your sitch so hope you don't mind me jumping in to ask.

what is the right ballance between empathy, giving people (mostly I mean the WAS) the time to work out their issues on their own time, validating their feelings and being their friend-the person they ideally will realize they don't want to give up-and also because it makes us feel better to conduct ourselves with grace and kindness AND responding to disrespectful inconsiderate treatment that not only hurts but indicates that we will except this?

How are we supossed to gauge if "doing something different" is to continue to rise above, be the better person, so they have less ammunition to justify thier anger at us, or if the doing something different required is to calmly but firmly address the disrespectful behavior? And, in switching up the doing something different, doesn't that then become waffeling back and forth so you never really get the full impact of either strategey?

I get so frustrated by the position we LBSs are placed in by manipulative or passive agressive WAS. I know that no person can make you feel a certain way, we control what we do for ourself and how we choose to respond, but if we are at the point where we want to drop the rope and have nothing to to do with them in response but still have ongoing issues (child swapping, joint financial responsibilities that can not be seperated immediately...) how are you supossed to respond when they are not acting respectfully. I feel like a little kid whinning...HEY, NO FAIR!
traveldane,

I only have a minute right now, but I'll go ahead and post my response on your thread so you don't have to flip flop back and forth.
ok, thanks stuck. didn't mean to hijack the thread
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Is there any reason why you called her?


I'm sure I was able to "rationalize" it to myself this morning about calling her - ranging from "strategic" to see what she may let slip about contacting her lawyer to "if she was just a friend and we had a conversation like last nite what would I do" to "I so just wanted to talk to her". None are really good reasons, nor call I recall what was the reason that really pushed me to calling. It was against all "normal" judgement to call. So I'm not going to try and justify why.

I started the call by asking how she was doing with work. That was one of the things she had really been stressing about yesterday, and she spent a lot of time venting about it when we went to pick up my 7 year old to get his cast removed.

What I thought was really odd, that after a few minutes, I started to say that I was about to get off the call, when she interupted and said that she still had to finish getting ready for work.

I just saiid "Bye", in a very upbeat positive manner, like I would have for any other friend.

Then I had the barrage of text messages/pics about 5 minutes of hanging up.

Then tonite, around the time she would be leaving work, I got a call from her, but when I picked up, there was no answer. I tried to call her back, but it went right to voice mail. I then got a voice mail that just had her going "Hello, hello?". So I sent her a text just saying I saw she called, what's up?

She called me back about some car question. I thought very weird. So I answered it like I would with a friend and just said bye.

I was tempted to call her during the day as yesterday she had pointed out that a circus was in town Fri & Sat. I told her that I was planning to take the boys to the races on Sat as my buddy was driving in one. She asked for some details about it, which I answered, but I didn't invite her (she was never into racing before, so I didn't want waste my breathe).

I had thought about asking if she wanted to go to the circus with the boys and I tonite, but decided against it (I know - finally, the right move). My youngest had asked about playing baseball and my oldest had just gotten his cast off, so I thought it would be good if the three of us just got to enjoy our time doing stuff our home, rather than just taking them places all the time.

The sad part of tonite, was when we were in the shed, my 7 year old saw his "old bike" (it had training wheels) and said that he hoped that when we found our new home, that it was in a development so his little brother would have space to learn to ride the bike. I could see he was really sad about it so I just told him that we will find someplace great and we will pick it out together as we start a new adventure. He then said that he didn't want to talk about it anymore as it was making him sad.

I gave him a minute and got down my knees to get to his level and said that I understand being sad, but we will find a place together, the three of us, so that will be really exciting. He was stil sad so I just gave him a hug and kiss and went back to playing basketball.

My 3 year old asked what we were talking about and before I could say anything, my 7 year old said that we were running out of money so we had to sell the house, but daddy will do everything he can. My 3 year old didn't understand (no big surprise) so I just changed the subject by giving them chalk to draw on the driveway with.

My 7 year old then wrote on the driveway "Dad is the best dad in the world".

That reminded me why I was fighting to save the marriage. I took a picture of what he wrote with him and his brother sitting next to it.

Either way I know I will survive this madness a better person and build my closeness with my boys. Whether I will still be married to my wife or not is the question.
Well done man. Focus on those little guys. They are the most deserving of your attention.
Originally Posted By: givingitmyall
Well done man. Focus on those little guys. They are the most deserving of your attention.


Thanks - I appreciate the support and encouragement.

It does bring a tear to my eye everytime I reread my post. It also gives me resolve to continue to do "the work" - although, I'm often trying to figure out what the work is....

I'm still struggling with Coach's question of "fair".

I didn't think it would have been that hard, but I think I've been really off base here (big surprise...)
My 3 year old woke me up this morning at 6:00 AM (usually he sleeps in until 6:30 AM). I told him that I was still tired, so he went back to his room and brought me one of his blankies and a stuffed animal. He also brought a set for him. He threw them up on my bed and climbed in next to me and let me "sleep in" until 6:15 AM.

My 7 year old woke up around that time as well. I sent them both downstairs to play/watch TV in the family as I got ready to go to the races.

I came down and my 7 year old was reading a book to his brother.

I looked at the two of them and just smiled. It touched my heart, but I looked at it and said that this is going to be a good day.

I made breakfast and the boys and I played in the playroom until it was time to get ready for the race.

About 45 minutes before we were going to leave, my wife calls. I had really tought about not answering, but wound up answering it. My wife was in tears and asked if I could pick her up to take her to the doctors (she was having severe abdominal pain). I know a few may say I should have told her that she left so find someone else to help her, but that is not my character (for my wife, for my friend, for my neighbor, or for a stranger). Plus, I did not think that was the type of person that I would want my boys to be. So I told her that I would be over right away.

I told the boys to get dressed as we had to take mommy to the doctors. My 7 year old asked what about the race? I said, that there should be enough time for the race, plus there will be other races. Mommy needs help so we need to help family.

When I went to pick her up, she was downstairs waiting. She got in, in obvious pain and she started talking about it as we drove. She then started complaining about how her sister was in town and her mom and her was suppose to go to lunch with her. Of course she was all wrapped up in some drama about her sister and her mom. I acknowledged and validated.

Then she said that she couldn't sleep last nite as she kept getting up to pee and it hurt everytime that she had to. So she thinks it's either a urinary tract infection or kidney stones.

I joked that it could be a STD as well

She said that she hadn't done anything like that. (I couldn't tell if she was mad or offended, but she didn't really think it was funny so I dropped it)

Then she continued about kidney stones and her pain. A few times, it hurt so bad, she doubled over in her seat. I held her hand to try and comfort her.

When we got to the doctors, she was signing in and said that the boys and I should just sit down as she had to fill out some forms. When she was done, she sat at a set of chairs opposite of me and then complained about how cold it was. I said I didn't have a jacket this time (when we went out to lunch on Thurs, I gave her my jacket when she said she was cold) but she can sit next to me if she wanted me to warm her up. She got up and snuggled next to me. I warmed her up until my 3 year old found a book that he wanted me to read.

Once she saw the doctor, she said it was a urinary tract infection and got a script. I took her to the pharmacy. On the way there, she asked what time was I planning to leave for the race with the boys. I looked at her and said 15 minutes ago.

She then said that now she felt bad and guilty. I told her that that there will be plenty of races, and that I knew she needed help. Then my buddy called me to ask me if I was on my way to race. I told him that I'll be about an hour behind so I would just meet them there.

When I drove her back to her apartment, I asked that if she had a chance, could she call me to let me know how she was doing. I told her that I didn't want to call as if she was sleeping, I didn't want to wake her. She said that she would, even though she still hadn't. It doesn't really bother me as I had an awesome time with the boys at the race.

The only bummer was that I had bought a ticket and when I saw my buddy, he asked if I got the ticket if he left for me. DOH - wasted $28 bucks.

The boys loved the motorcycle stunt show and the car race. We got to go to the pits and meet all the drivers. The boys even got to sit in the race car.

One thing that made me sad was one of the pit girls had asked my boys where was mom, was daddy giving her a break. My 7 year old just said to her that mommy and daddy are divorced. I nearly fell over as I didn't even think he knew that word. The pit girl then said she was sorry to hear that to me and started chatting with me about how cute my boys were and joking around with me. I tried to stay positive and upbeat, but I was a little distracted by what my 7 year old sad.

After the pit girl left to do take care of something, I asked my 7 year old where did he hear that word. He said his friends at school talk about it. I told him that mommy and daddy are not divorced yet, but daddy is still trying to work things out with mommy. He just said oh.

I then changed subjects as the pit crews started to clean up the cars after the race, so there was a lot of action going on in the garages

So overall, great day with the boys. My wife had asked if she wasn't feeling well, if I could help her with the boys tomorrow (they normally leave with her in the morning). I said absolutely, I would love to have time with boys anytime, but with her not feeling well, it will definitely not be an issue.

I had thought about heading back down to the races tomorrow, but I know that will be too much "car time" (it's a 2 hour drive each way) for the boys in one weekend. I'm not going to get my hopes up too high of getting the boys for an extra day, but that would really make my weekend.



My buddies and I went out for dinner afterwards and the boys had a blast as well.
You did well in your interactions with her. She really is pretty needy.

Just remember to keep all your interactions with her light and fun.
I felt bad when my my wife text she was still struggling this morning, but she asked if the boys could stay with me another day. I called her and asked how she was before I said absolutely.

I told the boys and they both cheered hurray (literally, that's what they did)

We ate breakfast and then went bowling. We had a blast

While my 3 year old took his nap, I played video games with my 7 year old

Once my 3 year old woke up from his nap, we played baseball and soccer in the yard and they rode their electric ride ons.

It's a great day. We wound up at McDonalds for dinner and the kids are playing on the climber

I know I will be missing them tomorrow, but tomorrow is another day. Today is now and we are having a blast.
Good for you cipa...fwiw I think u did the right thug in taking your a to the dr.
Stuck and Volleydog,

Thanks for the encouragement and validation with my interaction with my wife. I think the hardest part of the interaction was when I dropped her off at her apt. She had gotten out of the car without looking at me nor saying goodbye to me directly. She got out of the car and then open the backdoor to give the boys each a kiss goodbye and then said "Thanks boys for taking me to the doctor's"

I had made notice how she didn't say bye to me directly nor thanked me, but I shrugged it off as I didn't want to let that ruin the day I had planned with the boys on Sat.

I was doing fine all day today, but now that I put my boys to bed, I'm getting that aching feeling in my gut again (I've had it since the bomb in Jan). I think part of it is that before I put my boys to bed, my 3 year old had found a bunch of books and asked if we can read them together tomorrow. I said yes at first, but then said "Opps". He asked why I said "Opps" and my 7 year old jumped right in and said "We're not going to be home tomorrow". I noticed a hint of sadness in his voice, but by 3 year old didn't say anything.

The other part is that the last time my wife had this problem, I remember how she was hurting so bad with her urinary tract infection and kidney stone was right after my second son was born. I had just started a new job where I was driving almost 2 hours each way, so I was hardly home to help with the boys, let alone her. I would leave just before 4AM and wouldn't get home till almost 8:00 PM. After she had dropped the bomb, she told me that the 6 months I was working that job, she felt like a single mom as she felt so alone.

Her mom was over every day to help her. I think that was really the start of the death spiral to our marriage.

I know after that job, I wound up working about 15 minutes from where I lived, but then I traveled frequently and worked very long hours when I was home.

I know I can't fix the past, nor should I live in the past nor beat myself up for the past, but it's really hitting me tonite.

It keeps crossing my mind as I'm thinking about Coach's challenge/post on fairness.

"How do you decide if you are treated fairly? Do you treat everyone fairly? Who judges you? Define fair. Do you think the world treats you fairly?"

Even though I'm still struggling on how to define fair (surprising, even an internet search didn't help), I know I can't say that I treat everyone fairly. I know my wife feels I haven't treated her fairly in our marriage.

After a great time with my boys the past 5 days, the hurt is really coming back strong tonite.....
She text me tonite to say she running a fever and doesn't think that she'll make it to work tomorrow.

I called her to ask how she was doing. She went on for a bit of how miserable and tired she was. We chit chatted back and forth about each other's day. It was a pretty light conversation with some joking back and forth.

Then she asked if I hadn't anything planned tomorrow nite, would I be able to pick up the boys if needed. I told her that there wasn't anything that was so important that I couldn't reschedule. She then asked if I was sure as she said that she felt bad about Sat how I missed leaving for the race as planned because I helped her. She said that the boys could have been upset. I told her that the boys need to know what is important, we can go to other races, but if family needs help, that is the priority. I told her that it worked out fine anyway.

So I told her that I will plan on picking them up as it would be easier than trying to reschedule at the last minute. She said that seemed like a good plan then.

She then started to yawn so I took that opportunity/cue to say taht she sounded tired so I was going to let her go to sleep and wished her the best in feeling better.

She called me back a few minutes later with some tactical stuff relative to camp. I thanked her for the info and said goodnite.

So it looks like I may get another day with the boys. Again, I don't want to get my hopes up. If I do great, if not, I'll just go to the gym (which I hadn't been to in a week).
You're doing a great job at staying detached. When you're around her, do you try looking your best, etc? Let her miss you for the "right" reasons. Not because she's looking at you to blame for her insecurities.

Thanks for your comments on my post. I've got some heavy hitters going through my sitch and am glad for everyone of theirs and your postings.
Well, I see a lot of post about me suggesting that you go dark.

Some said I told you to go dark and some don't know. I was trying to explain to you what going dark was! You were the one that did not understand the difference between going dark, dropping the rope, and being detached meant. So, I see how I need to work on my writing skills.

It has to be up to the individual as to which route to take, but I have maintained that when you are co-parenting, it is almost impossible to go "dark"......and then some poster started with this mess of dim/dark and it just confused the heck out of people on the board. Guess it is my pet peeve but that is the way I see it. I don't remember ever actually coming out and telling a poster to go dark when he/she was having to co-parent. I have told them to drop the rope, but that is a totally different concept.

As being newly separated, you were not dealing with it at all well and was soooo hung up on what "dark" meant and the difference in that from dropping the rope. I was merely trying to explain the difference.

Quote:
If she starts attacking/blaming stuff from the past, that's where I should draw my boundary and can say "I've appologized for those in the past and I've am drawing what I've learned from them to work on me" (or is that too much). Or should I just cut it off to "I've already appologized for those in the past.". Or do I add some validation "I can see how you've felt hurt by those things in the past and I've already applogized for that" Or "????"


If you say that last sentence then you are opening a door for a R talk from her. Don't say anything about apologizing in the past from now on. Just don't say anything....period. Tell her good-bye and hang up. It is past time for her to get the message that you are not going down that lane again. Stop it!!


sandi-
sorry, really don't mean to be rude or trying to hijack. When you get a chance can you swing by my thread? I am a mess. thanks. TD
Posted By: Coach Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 06/15/09 01:40 PM
Quote:
It keeps crossing my mind as I'm thinking about Coach's challenge/post on fairness.

"How do you decide if you are treated fairly? Do you treat everyone fairly? Who judges you? Define fair. Do you think the world treats you fairly?"

Even though I'm still struggling on how to define fair (surprising, even an internet search didn't help), I know I can't say that I treat everyone fairly. I know my wife feels I haven't treated her fairly in our marriage.


Keep struggling till you figure it out. Why does everyone have to treat you fair?
Well, apparently it does get worse.

I just got let go - today is my last day.
Dang I am so sorry...I'm not sure what you do but if I can help at all let me know, I do recruiting so maybe I can give resume advice or something...Try looking at the positives, I know easier said than done, you can spend more time with your kids right?
Sorry dude. Same thing happened to me 2 weeks before last Thanksgiving. When my boss sat me down and told me he was letting me go I had a flashback of the ILYBNILWU speech the X gave me. The rejection was hard at first, but then I landed an even better job. Better pay and nicer boss and coworkers. I know you've heard it before, but it's true "when one door shuts another opens..."

Let Go and Let God. PMA
Sorry to hear that. I was put on furlough 2 weeks ago.

For me, I practiced some of the techniques I learned from my sitch about being happy and making the most of things to get through it. After what happened in my M, I figured nothing, including a job loss, would ever be as bad as that.

Hang in there and stay strong. We're all here for you.
confused--
Just hold on. These types of things have a great way of working themselves out. I have two very close friends and a couple just "plain old regular friends" who were all let go due to cut backs. All four have new jobs they like much much better that they wouldn't have pursued otherwise.
Just hold on....you'll get there too.
Posted By: Coach Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 06/15/09 08:26 PM
CIPA, Sorry to hear of your news. You can handle it.
Coach
That old saying of "when it rains, it pours"....comes to mind about now. So sorry for everything seeming to hit you when you are down. That is what seems "unfair". I heard it said a long time ago that life is never fair, but God is always fair......He can't help but be fair. I think God gets blamed for a lot of "life's" unfairness. Not saying that you have done this, but people in general. Was thinking about you talking about that word and the first thing that came to my mind was that our definition and the dictionary's definition is probably different. I believe we think of fairness as being "just". Doesn't seem like any justice about you losing your job, does it? Times are getting hard for a lot of people. I agree that if you stay positive and place your faith in God to provide.....He will. Don't sit at home and worry about all this until it makes you sick, okay? Get out and hit the pavement (as they say). You will find something.

Take care,
Sandi

Originally Posted By: volleydog
Dang I am so sorry...I'm not sure what you do but if I can help at all let me know, I do recruiting so maybe I can give resume advice or something...Try looking at the positives, I know easier said than done, you can spend more time with your kids right?


Volleydog,

Thanks for the offer for support. Unfortunately my career path has led to very limited choices due to outsourcing in the US. My most recent role was the VP of Operations for a global $100 Million company (headquartered in the US, with plants in US, France, Hungary and Japan). If you think you can help me, I can send you my resume.

You are right, I got to pick up my boys early today so I got to spend even more time with them (my wife was still sick so she had asked if I could watch them again).
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Well, I see a lot of post about me suggesting that you go dark.

Some said I told you to go dark and some don't know. I was trying to explain to you what going dark was! You were the one that did not understand the difference between going dark, dropping the rope, and being detached meant. So, I see how I need to work on my writing skills.



Sandi,

I don't think it has anything to do with your writing skills, I think it's more that you are dealing with DAM.

I'm actually seeing how I've shifted from the DARK to the friendly approach (without taking the relationship blame/venting), my wife seems a little more at ease wtih me (although that has really only happened the past week so it's hard to say for sure).

I told her the news today and she was leveled. She wound up rushing home to see if I was Ok (I only have a cell phone and I had to leave that at work). I wasn't home yet as I was wrapping up some expense reports before I left. She called me to ask if I was Ok and wanted to know when I would get home.

I got home about 30 minutes later and the first things she said was that this does not change anything about our situation. I told her I don't expect it to, but do appreciate her being caring. She said that she cares as I am the father of the kids (a little cold, but I didn't make a big deal about it). She said that we should go get me a cell phone. Ordinarily, I would have just told her that I can get one myself, but I let her help me (basically we went to the store together).

We wound up having lunch together and on the way home, she put in all the contact numbers that she thought I would need into the new phone. I thanked her and told her that I did have to get going to go to a therapy appointment. She asked if I had called for it today, I told her no, I was continuing it weekly even though she had stopped going right before she moved out.

After the therapy appointment, I got a call from my mom. Turned out my wife called my mom. Then I got a call from a few close friends that had heard from my wife. First I was a little annoyed that my wife was telling so many folks, but these were people that I would have told anyway. I think part of what my wife was worried about that this would push me into a depression. She also knows that ordinarily I don't talk about my issues and keep them inside.

I had actually talked to my wife about it as I told her that if this had happened a few years ago, I think I would have been much more devastated as in the past I had put my job before everything. What I've learned is that a job is just a job, it is not as important as the people in our lives. I told her that I am glad that I've learned that lesson, but the price of that lesson has been very high.

She did start talking about how it's good to see/hear that I've learned and am learning.

She did wind up calling me a few times through out the afternoon/evening to see how I was doing and just to chat. I did tell the boys I had lost my job. My 3 year old didn't understand but my 7 year old started to cry saying that now we are going to lose the house even sooner. I told him that I will find another job and we will find a house together. No matter what house we are in, we will be a family and be together.

It sucks, but I truly feel that this is very minor compared to what happened with my wife's bomb in January. I will find another job, just a matter of how long it will take.

I will be strong to survive and thrive.....
I'm not sure if I can help my focus is IT but I know a lot people so I'm here...You are in my prayers I know it's a tough time but you CAN and WILL get through this and be better for it...read the quotes in my sig.
"I got home about 30 minutes later and the first things she said was that this does not change anything about our situation."

It's amazing how selfish our WASs can be. It's like our whole lives are wrapped around theirs. When I told my W I was at a risk of getting laid off, she just said 'oh' and then walked away. I felt as if she couldn't be bothered by my problems. Sheesh.

Your W really is acting odd. Just like how she told you that it doesn't change anything, she had no right to go into your business and tell everyone.

I feel for you. Are you going to be okay keeping your house?
CIPA,

How are things going today? Hope you're doing okay. When it rains it does pour. Hang in there.
I'm so sorry CIPA.

Try to insulate your kids as much as you can. IMO they know too much about grown ups business right now- and you cannot use them for emotional support.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
I feel for you. Are you going to be okay keeping your house?


Unfortunately not. Even if I had kept my job I would have only kept it for about 1.5 years. Now it will be under 1 year. With the markets the way they are, I will have to put it on the market soon. The real killer is how do I get a new place with np job

I know I just need to take it one step at a time

Thanks for your support
Well hang in there. Go out and get your mind off of things for awhile. I know it's easier said than done, but hey that's what we're all here for if you need the support.
I really do appreciate all the encouragement and support that everyone has offered. I really don't know what I would have done without this site from the first bomb and its good to know that there are people who are there for me even through this bomb.

My wife called me a number of times today to see how I was doing. No discussion on the divorce or stuff, but just to see how I was doing. She is still sick so she said that I should just keep the kids all week. Which is fine by me anyway.

Once I dropped the kids off at school, I did update my resume and called a few recruiters to get them working for me. I searched the internet job boards and fired off some applications. I also called a few of my friends to start networking.

Part of my job issue is the location - I really want to stay around here for the boys. Unfortunately, there is not a lot of need for Operations VP in this area. While the pay was great, I never did enjoy the job - just too much BS. So maybe this is a time to revisit my career path. Either way, I'm hitting the "pavement"

I did pick up my 7 year old early from school so that we can play basketball together (hard to do when his little brother is around). He really enjoyed that. We went to pick up his little brother together and when we got home, we played baseball. It was a really good afternoon.

The boys did great until it was time to go to bed. My 7 year old came back down crying and asking when mommy was coming home. I told him that we are still working on some grown up stuff but no matter what we will always love them. Of course the 3 year old came down with him. I tucked them back into bed and then they came back down a few minutes later to get extra hugs. I could see the 7 year old was still really upset, so I told them that they could sleep in my room tonite. I told them that I still had to take care of a few things before I went to bed.

I did talk to my wife (she had called earlier but I missed the call). She asked how I was and then started telling me about how she was doing. Then we started to talk about what we could do to try and cut back on expenses to stretch things out till I get a job. I almost said moving back in would really help, but deep down inside, I don't want her to move back in for this reason. So we bounced things back and forth and then she said that she told her lawyer to stop doing anything else with child support or financial related to the divorce. She told me that she still wants a divorce as she still doesn't trust me with her feelings, but does want us to be able to work together to get us through this.

Fortunately, my 3 year old got up again so I got off the phone.

So I'm not sure if this is the pause I need in the divorce process to try and reconnect with my wife or what.

I do think it's odd of how she is reacting. I'm curious to hear from other WAW if there LBS had lost their job, would they have cared or what they would have done.
Sometimes there are blessings in disguise....do what you can to handle the job crap with a calm head....that's such a turn on when men are confident and not worried about such things....as if not only do they know they are going to land on their feet, they act as if they already have.
Very sexy.
Just keep moving forward.
Stop her from talking about the divorce etc as much as possible, but I guess really, you did have to discuss that stuff last night. I agree that it was stuff you needed to know.
Maybe she's having second thoughts.....maybe she's sort of relieved and can use this as an excuse to slow things down...???
Thanks for the support and optimism.

I'm trying to maintain a positive attitude - surprisingly how much easier it is to be positive about the job loss than the divorce bomb. Not sure if it's been the practice I've put in over the last 5 months or what.

I am a little disheartened today as I was expecting some responses to my resume applications, but I know that is too much to ask for.

I also got a call from my wife to let me know that she was able to get her work discount for the cell phone I had to get on Monday. I thanked her for it and then she asked what I wanted to do about Sunday. We have tickets to a baseball game for Father's day. We had bought them about a week before she moved out.

She asked if I wanted her to go or did I want to ask her dad or whatever. I told her that I was still planning on all of us going. She then asked if how we want to handle Sunday as normally she picks them up in the morning. I told her that I hadn't given it any thought, but my initial reaction would be for her to come over so we could have lunch before we left. We had a bad cell connection so I asked her to think about it and we can talk again when we have a better connection.

I do agree with you suggestion of not talking about the divorce as much as possible. I was actually going to call up my lawyer to see if it's just a legal ploy on her part to delay any further proceedings until we got past this latest bomb. But, decided against it as it really doesn't change what I'm doing.

I do appreciate the surprisingly high level of concern from my wife. I think she is worried about this pushing me into a depression where I'd do something stupid. I had said some irrational things the nite that she hit me with the bomb. In hindsight, I think that really made things worse for me.

I am approaching this job loss as an opportunity to change the direction of my career and get something that is more relaxing or makes me happy. Of course, I need to find out what that is.

I had talked to a recruiter that I had used before. She and I had really spent a lot of time chatting several years ago as she was trying to place me in my most recent position. I told her not only of my job situation, but my personal situation. I hadn't talked to her in over 2 years, but she really surprised me of how much she remembered about me. She also offered a lot of insight to my personal situation (she has had 2 failed marriages before the one that she's in now that is really thriving). Only downside talking with her was that it used up almost 120 minutes of my cell phone plan. But it was worth it as she gave me a lot to think about, from a personal level as well as carreer wise. She's going to review my resume and see what she can do for me job wise as well.

Onward and upward!
Just relax, enjoy this time off because it really wont' last long. Get ready for Father's Day and be selfish....it's your day and you've earned it. Make them pamper you!
Stillloveshim,

Thanks again for keeping positive focused. I will definitely keep your suggestion in mind for Sunday!

I wound up sending out just 1 resume today (not too much new from yesterday's barrage I sent out).

I do have a call this evening setup to talk to a recruiter that I responded to a job posting. Big downside is he is out in CA. Figure I would cross that bridge when I get there.

I did also get a call back from the recruiter that had placed me in my most recent role, she wanted to chat about tweaks to my resume, but I was in route to pick up my boys so I couldn't talk, so I have a 9:30 AM call with her tomorrow.

I wound up visiting a couple of my friends this afternoon (the retired couple that both came from a prior divorce relationship). They had actually tried to stop by on Monday when my wife told them of my job loss, but I was out with my wife getting a cell phone. I chatted with them briefly, but thought it would be good to just visit them.

They were very supportive and tried to keep me upbeat. I told them I wasn't that bad as I know what I need to do relative to finding a job. I was a wreck from my wife's divorce bomb because I had no idea what I should do so I know I made a lot of mistakes. I did tell them how I was also considering looking at some business ventures at the same time of looking for a job. They seemed interested on one of my ideas in particular so who knows, maybe this could be a really good opportunity. Of course you need to be careful going into business with friends.

My wife called me a couple of times today, mostly to see how I was doing, but also to complain about how crazy it was at work and how she still wasn't feeling well.

I did manage to work out a reduction for my boys summer camp/day care as I can have them with me most of the time. I wanted to keep them in at least partially so that they won't be bored and so that I won't feel like they are missing out on things because of my job loss. Overall I think it's about a $700/month reduction. Nothing huge, but every little bit counts.

I guess that is a positive, that I will be spending a lot of time with my boys this summer.

I tried to keep my wife very involved in what I was doing to cut cost as that is something I had never engaged her in (one of her many complaints - how I cut her out of managing the family finances). I just hope that she sees that I really have changed in how I am approaching life/issues.

I know I lost what little respect she had for me when I fell apart after she dropped the divorce bomb on me. One of the things she had always thought would be that I was her rock that she could count on. I think it was part of her father leaving issues.

Nevertheless, she has said that she still doesn't trust me with her feelings and has reminded me that she still wants a divorce. I got a letter from her lawyer today that outlined our custody agreement in legal mumbo jumbo (I noticed that it left out the right of first refusal clause). I was going to call her about it, but just sent it to my lawyer to get his thoughts. Figure I would just mark it up and send it back to her lawyer rather than talk to her about it. Or should I talk to her about it?

I did talk to her tonite as she sent me a text. She was sleeping (still not feeling well) so she just told me about her day and how she was feeling. I listened and tried to "show her" that I listened. Then I told her that I knew she was tired and would let her go before she woke up too much.

So now, I'm prepping for my call with the recruiter at 11:00 PM.

So goes another day....
I have to wonder, is there ever a day that your W doesn't have drama? Sounds like she has to call you just to complain about her problems. Excuse me? You are the one who lost his job. Did she think she could "cheer" you up be telling you her problems?

Unbelievable.

Honestly, the next time she calls to complain again, don't even answer. You've been way too accessible to her. Concentrate on yourself buddy.

Hang in there.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
Concentrate on yourself buddy.

Hang in there.


Thanks Stuck.

I'm trying to hang in there as well as follow Kittyfish's comment that my kids are being exposed to way too much grown up stuff.

It was really apparent when I picked up my 7 year old and the first thing he asked was if I had found a job. I told him no, but it will take some time and I am working on it. He said that if I needed any money I should let him know. I thanked him and told him that I'm fine for now but do appreciate his offer.

When I tucked my kids to bed tonite, my 3 year old if my old job found any more money yet so I can go back to work. I just told him that they haven't and I'm not waiting for that. I'm looking for some place else to work and that we will be fine.

Both of my boys know that money does not grow on trees as they have been brought up to be careful with money. I make them save their present money for their big ticket items (i.e. bike, video games, etc) and I give them each a fixed amount when we go to the book store so they can't just buy random books (the sales tax usually messes them up, but I do help them out when it comes to that).

Thanks again for all your support. Maybe I'll make it out to Hawaii someday to buy you a beer or two.

Take care
Well the call with the recruiter was a real bummer. I appreciated how honest he was, but it was still a bummer.

I had thought a "hurdle" I would have to clear for jobs would be that my background may be more that what they were looking for. I was really caught off guard when he said that a $100 Million Global Operation was too small as the firm he was recruiting for was a $2.5 Billion Operation.

ACK!!!!

I guess I should just take it as a warm up phone screen. The recruiter did give me some feedback to tweak my resume, although he said overall he thought it presented well. He did say that I should be prepared for a 6-9 month search, at least.

So I'm back to - THIS SUCKS!

BTW, I'm still curious to hear from WAWs if there LBS had lost their job, would you have reacted like my wife (calling my friends and relatives)?
I gotta agree with Stuck I can't believe your W is calling you complaining about work...You need to cut that out for your own good.

Quote:
It was really apparent when I picked up my 7 year old and the first thing he asked was if I had found a job. I told him no, but it will take some time and I am working on it. He said that if I needed any money I should let him know. I thanked him and told him that I'm fine for now but do appreciate his offer.


Man that brought a tear to my eye your raising good kids...
did she really call and complain about HER JOB????? All you can do is shake your head at that one and realize she's sort of out of her mind right now....as all of our spouses surely are!
Hang in there, this is still a blessing in disguise.....relax. Enjoy and just hit the pavement.
Originally Posted By: volleydog
Quote:
It was really apparent when I picked up my 7 year old and the first thing he asked was if I had found a job. I told him no, but it will take some time and I am working on it. He said that if I needed any money I should let him know. I thanked him and told him that I'm fine for now but do appreciate his offer.


Man that brought a tear to my eye your raising good kids...


Volleydog,

Thanks - I know my boys are great. That's the hardest part of my situation. Between the WAW bomb and now my job, everytime I turn around I see things are being taken away from them. They do know that they will always have my undying love and commitment and support for them. I pray that will be enough because right now that is all I have.

Thanks again for the support and encouragement
Originally Posted By: stillloveshim
did she really call and complain about HER JOB?????


She called to see how I was doing and I would always ask how she was doing. That's when she would complain about her job.

It's still clear to me that my job loss is not helping my situation with her either, rather it may actually cement the path that we are on. I wouldn't want her to come back just because I lost my job, but I think she is using it as an affirmation that leaving me was a right decision since I can't even keep a job that I focused all my energy/time/attention on ahead of her. Perhaps she is taking this as justice. Only she and God knows.

Right now I'm focusing all my energy on finding a job to hopefully save the only home that my boys have known. I have prepped them that it will not matter where we live nor the size of the house. I will always love them and I will always be their dad.

Gotta keep on keeping on....
Alright Confused: This is me smacking YOU!!!!!
You are over thinking all of this.
Hit the pavement, like you have been. Talk to recruiters, send out resumes, do the whole thing. You can control this part of your life to a great extent. Fight for it!
Keep this situation separated from the other. They are not one in the same.
Originally Posted By: stillloveshim
Alright Confused: This is me smacking YOU!!!!!
You are over thinking all of this.
Hit the pavement, like you have been. Talk to recruiters, send out resumes, do the whole thing. You can control this part of your life to a great extent. Fight for it!
Keep this situation separated from the other. They are not one in the same.


I am trying to keep them seperate, but since the job loss, my wife has reminded me each day that this does not change the fact that she wants a divorce. Each time, I told her that I didn't expect it to. If she continues it, I will just tell her that I know so just drop it.

When I was visiting with some friends yesterday, I had told them that while losing my job sucks (first time it has ever happened), it's not as devastating as the divorce bomb, as in the job case, I do know what to do. Where as I have no idea what to do about my wife.

So I have been keep on keeping on relative to the job.

I have been talking with recruiters and searching the job boards. I just got off the call with one recruiter who had some suggestions on my resume so I'm going to make those tweaks so I can get them out there. It doesn't sound too encouraging, but from a cash flow situation, I have some time (about 6 months) before I'm in serious trouble). Hopefully that will be enough time.

Thanks for smacking my head straight!
Recently things have changed in a good direction for situation.
I have to believe a lot of it has to do with the fact I finally stood up for me and my son and made some decisions for us....and not really considering H much while making these choices. Every time there's been positive changes for me and H, it's been after I took the bull by the horns and started to really make changes and decisions for me....with out much thought for him. And frankly, I don't feel like he's thought about me much either, so I have no bad feelings about this.

I've made it very clear, I'm leaving when we divorce. I'm not sticking around for the gossip storm that will be hitting soon after we make it official, as it's actually already started. H and I have pretty high profile jobs....so it will be a nice little piece of gossip mixed with facts to keep everyone's jaws yapping.

I told him we can put in the divorce settlement I will return with our son after a specific time frame, about a year or so. He's agreeable to this but not really happy about our Son leaving this town at all, but he's being ok about it which I appreciate.

H said a couple of weeks ago he would try a marriage program with me then some people got in his ear...."She can't force you to stay married, she can't force you to work on it, etc" so he says he does NOT want to do the program. He has a distant female cousin who found him on facebook that he's never met but has started to confide in because the old OW doesn't give him the time of day anymore. And I know this cousin has been talking crap about me despite NEVER meeting me.....remember her, we'll get back to her in a second. (My life is soooo drama)

Which brings us to the most recent strange turn of events.
I met with a lawyer yesterday after H and I went in for our dentist appointment.
Before going to the dentist H and I talked about a few things...including the fact he is now willing to give the marriage program a try....???? WTH?????

I am still 99% sure of divorce for us, but I was surprised.
He did sign a new lease for a place in town that is furnished and it's month to month which is what I asked him to look for so if or more likely when I leave for Virginia, he won't be paying a lot of money to break a lease.

We are going to start week two next week for the marriage program and have agreed to not talk about anything else for the rest of this week.

He is going to start moving his clothes to his new place this weekend when he gets the keys on Friday.

I have absolutely no idea why the change of heart as it relates to the program--I have my theories, but we'll see what happens. I decided to not even ask him why he wants to try it now. But I'm really not holding my breathe. I'm not even sure what I want anymore but I did make a pretty big stink about doing the program so I have to now and I want to, so that's good. My true hope is that we'll at least be able to figure some things out about ourselves and get along better. That's the most important thing for Son.

I am going to continue to move forward with moving back to Virginia.

Why the change of herat with him....???? My theories are this, as to why he's now willing to try the program again: The facebook cousin.....she sent me a message on the 10th telling me I need to let it go and some other details about my relationship with H which he has no right to be talking about with really a stranger. I showed him the message the other night. He was in complete disbelief as I pulled it up and he read it. Then I got a sincere apology about it and I said "you want to make me out to be crazy, but since all this crap started this is not the first time something like this has happened.....PLEASE stop talking about our relationship with people until you are positive THEY aren't crazy." He again apologized for it and to the best of my knowledge has stopped talking to her. But even if he hasn't, I don't really care. She cooked her own goose. I know he was shocked and probably even appalled. I could see it on his face when he was reading the message.

I also let his parents in on somethings when they started in on me about giving up and "You both have been unhappy for the last several years......" What? Who told you that? I let them in on some info, such as I was pregnant and miscarried in September....not only was I pregnant, we were TRYING!!! Why would I think our marriage was in trouble when we were trying to have a second child AND trying to buy a new house????? They looked shocked....it's ugly to admit it, but I felt some satisfaction over this development. So I think his parents may have said "Alright, maybe give this program a try....." now that they know a little more.

And finally, I think his lawyer as confirmed to him what my lawyer has told me: If I contest the divorce on the grounds we never sought professional help, the judge will side with me and force him into counseling.....because of our three year old son. Will it work, forcing someone to see a therapist? Probably not, but if one parent is asking for it, the judge most likely is going to grant it for the sake of the child. I think this because H asked me "If I do this program will this be 'professional help' you keep wanting?" I said yes.

So here we are.

Keep fighting. You never know Confused. You just never know. And my lawyer mentioned something else yesterday.....he keeps numbers and stats....he says just less than 40% of his clients reconcil with their spouses during the divorce process.

Walk with me. Let's keep fighting. It might not end well, but at least we'll look our kids in their eyes and tell them "when it was over, I had bloody hands and no teeth left because I fought this tooth and nail....." And we'll be telling the truth.
"my wife has reminded me each day that this does not change the fact that she wants a divorce. Each time, I told her that I didn't expect it to. If she continues it, I will just tell her that I know so just drop it."

Are you frickin' kidding me? Why are you letting her beat you up on this while you're down? SHE DOESN'T MATTER! I don't know why you keep setting yourself up for this. Before she even gets into the D subject, tell her "look I got more problems to worry about than your drama and insincere concern, so I'm leaving now. Goodbye." In fact, don't even answer her calls.

Just like that.

You are about to lose everything you've worked for and your W doesn't care squat about you. Don't argue that "she does care". If she REALLY did, she wouldn't keep rubbing your nose into the D. Stop letting her run your life. Even S you are letting her pull your strings. Cut them off and let it go.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
"my wife has reminded me each day that this does not change the fact that she wants a divorce. Each time, I told her that I didn't expect it to. If she continues it, I will just tell her that I know so just drop it."

Are you frickin' kidding me? Why are you letting her beat you up on this while you're down? SHE DOESN'T MATTER! I don't know why you keep setting yourself up for this. Before she even gets into the D subject, tell her "look I got more problems to worry about than your drama and insincere concern, so I'm leaving now. Goodbye." In fact, don't even answer her calls.

Just like that.

You are about to lose everything you've worked for and your W doesn't care squat about you. Don't argue that "she does care". If she REALLY did, she wouldn't keep rubbing your nose into the D. Stop letting her run your life. Even S you are letting her pull your strings. Cut them off and let it go.


I agree with stuck!

Listen, she may care about you as a "friend" but that's it. And she's caring right now because this impacts HER- that's why. Won't that affect child support or alimony??

Cut her off when she starts the drama. You need to worry about you hon.
Hey confused
Keep your chin up.
Make some decisions.
Take the ball out of her hands and you play your game, the way you want to.
If she wants the divorce tell her she can do all the work for it. But make it clear you want to be up to date about what's going on....no secret crap. Make it clear it's not what you want but you deserve to know what's going on. Make sure she's a woman about all of this.
And I agree, if she brings up divorce while you've got this going on, ask her to have a heart right now and give you a break. You've got some more pressing immediate matters at hand.
Keep your cool.
Confused, please take a step back. Re-read 23-29 in DR. Do not give in to your despair. Do not just give up because it hurts. Stand strong for your M and for your boys.

Learn to detach because every marriage needs you to stand on your own, even when you are together. We tend to lose ourselves in M and then we can only see the blend. You need to be strong and focused right now.

I haven't been here since way back on page 8 because I had things going on. I will read back.

I highly recommend you get a few fishing poles and take those boys fishing. Go to movies. Finger paint. Bake cookies. Take them to a park. Go swimming. Go to the beach. Go to festivals.

Let your boys tell their mother the details of what you do, not you.

I know you can do this.
Originally Posted By: stillloveshim
Walk with me. Let's keep fighting. It might not end well, but at least we'll look our kids in their eyes and tell them "when it was over, I had bloody hands and no teeth left because I fought this tooth and nail....." And we'll be telling the truth.


Stilloveshim,

Thank you for sharing your story with me. I'm glad that you are starting to see a glimmer of light. I have been getting really down of late (before the job bomb) as it didn't seem like anyone was getting anywhere through all their attempts.

I've had a handful of folks who have been consistent supporters/followers of my thread which I can not find the words to thank or show my appreciation.

I do agree 100% with your statement of being able to tell the kids when this is over that I gave it my all. My wife had even mentioned this week, when she was reminding me that she still wanted a divorce and this job loss doesn't change anything, that she knows that she will look like the "bad guy" out of all this since she is the one who left.

She says that the kids aren't going to understand right now how I made her feel by neglecting her. When she started down that path, I just shook my head and didn't say a word in response. I didn't feel like it merited a response as I think deep down inside she knows she is fooling herself. So I decided to take the high road where you don't argue with someone who doesn't have a point worth arguing about.

I forget how I ended that call, but I know I did end the call shortly after that.

I had a real struggle with my boys tonite though. She hadn't talked to them since Tuesday nite when she called. She didn't call last nite to talk to the boys, and when I responded to her text at 9:30 PM, she was already asleep since she still wasn't feeling well). She didn't call tonite and I asked the boys if they wanted to talk to mommy. Both said no. I waited about 10 minutes and asked them again. Both were very insistent with their no and the 7 year old seemed like he was going to get upset if I pressed the issue.

I feel like I should have them call her, but they didn't want to. I know she has told me that she thinks the parent with the kids should do the calling (although a couple of times I wound up calling since it was getting past the time they normally go to sleep). What are your thoughts? Should I have called her anyway to let the kids talk to her? A few weeks ago, she had even thanked me for having the kids call her when I had them (after she complained that I never had them call, where I then said that she can call them anytime like I do when she doesn't call).

So should I have made the kids call her?
Originally Posted By: stuck808
You are about to lose everything you've worked for and your W doesn't care squat about you. Don't argue that "she does care". If she REALLY did, she wouldn't keep rubbing your nose into the D. Stop letting her run your life. Even S you are letting her pull your strings. Cut them off and let it go.


Stuck,

The only thing I would argue would be that I'm about to lose everything that I've worked for. I feel like right now I've already lost that - my wife and family. If this had happened before the bomb, I would have agreed 100% as I was so focused on the things. Now, I see things are things, they can be replaced. People are what's the important part of your life. Someone had posted it a while ago, but it really hit me hard - people on their death's bed typically don't say they wished they had just made another $100K or bought just one more car. Rather they are focused on wishing they had spent more time with this person or said this to that person.

On the flip side, I wouldn't argue that she does care. She has said, when she reminds me of her still wanting the divorce, that she only cares because I am the father of the kids and since I have them 50% of the time, she wanted to make sure that I wouldn't do anything irrational.

We only chatted/text a couple of times today, and that was related to a parent-teacher conference for my 3 year old that we had scheduled today. She said that she didn't think that she would be able to leave work to go. I told her that I would just go.

The conference went well, he was progressing very nicely and was more than ready to start pre-school in the fall. One thing that they mentioned how my 3 year old of late seemed to be a little more on edge emotionally. I told her that my wife left. They said they knew as he had mentioned how he started to go to mommy's apartment for a few days. They said that he would bring it up very casually (i.e. like going to the grocery store) so they didn't press him on it, but they felt it was understandable having such a situation to deal with that he would act out a little more. I had really wished my wife was there to hear that, but I know she sees it when the kids are visiting her place.

I have been following your thread as well. It is remarkable how not only our ages are so similar, but the things that your wife said/done and background (my wife's father left when she was 7 and she has a sister as well and her mom never dated either). Very bizzare.

Hopefully, like in your situation, my wife comes back home after 6 months. I'm not too hopeful though. In hindsight, if I had lost my job before she left, I don't think she would have left. She would have pushed the sell the house (which was what she was doing when I told her that I couldn't keep the house without her financial support). I had thought I could handle it for a couple of years, between my savings and my income, to at least wait out the divorce process while giving my boys some stability.

Not sure if that would have helped/hurt my situation, but as many people here remind me, I can't second guess the past. I can only live in the present and look forward to the future.

So thanks for all your support and insight. Keep your head up, sounds like you are doing the right things and keeping your head in the game. I believe in you and am counting on you to give me and others hope that a divorce can be busted!

Take care Stuck
No you shouldn't have called her.

Dude you are in a real bad slump with the job loss whammy. I know what it's like. It's not helping much when your W is putting you even more down.

Next time your W even says the word "I still want..." hang up the phone. Don't even give her the time of day. Hang up, sigh (because you know she's not going to change right now), then go out and do something.

You don't have to do anything that costs money, but just "live".

These periods of adversity are the times that show how strong you really can be. It's the what doesn't kill you makes you stronger mentality.

I know you're hurting because right now you need the support of someone who cares for what you're going through. Right now it's not your W. I felt the same way when my W was indifferent towards my job. My W didn't even call me to ask if I still had my job. So when my grandmother went into her surgery and I felt down, I already knew I couldn't depend on my W. Just myself.

Stop and take a look at what you have right now. RIGHT NOW. Look what's right in front of you. You've got your brains, you've got two healthy kids and you've got the guts to be the man it takes to do what you have to do.

Have you ever seen the movie "Pursuit of Happyness"? That shows you what fathers can and will do.

You say your kids are watching you right now. When they grow up to become men themselves, what image do you want them to remember you by? The sullen, sulking dad, or the one who stood strong and fought for them. My Ds know what I am. What about you?
Originally Posted By: Kittyfish
Listen, she may care about you as a "friend" but that's it. And she's caring right now because this impacts HER- that's why. Won't that affect child support or alimony??

Cut her off when she starts the drama. You need to worry about you hon.


Kittyfish,

I don't even think she cares about me as a friend right now. She has told me that she cares about me only because I'm the father of the kids and since I have them 50% of the time, she doesn't want me to do anything stupid.

The irony about this situation now is that I had thought about calling my lawyer to file for spousal and child support from her! I thought that would really pour some salt on her. Maybe that would be what it would take to knock some sense into her or what. I've held off right now as I'm trying to just not do something strictly out of emotion.

Thanks for stopping by and offering your support. This jobloss has really made my situation seem even bleaker. But I do know that I've faced adversity in the past and I've found the strenght to make it through to be stronger. I did it back them for me. Now that I have 2 boys counting on me as well, I know I can't fail them!

Thanks for being here for me
Originally Posted By: stillloveshim
And I agree, if she brings up divorce while you've got this going on, ask her to have a heart right now and give you a break.


Aren't you making an assumption that WAW's have a heart?!?!?

On the serious side, last week I pressed her that I didn't feel like I was being treated fairly by her lawyer and felt like he was trying to take advantage of me/us. I had posted all the details earlier, but without making it too long, I told her that I want a copy of everything that her lawyer sends/files that related to this case. If she can't make that happen, I know that my lawyer "friend" can.

I'm trying to keep my cool on this one for now. Although it was hard tonite when my boys were saying prayers, they prayed that mommy would come home soon and that daddy would find a new job soon. It really touched me and I told them that I thought their prayers were very nice. I'm really upset that they are going to pay the ultimate price for this divorce.

I've heard all the "the kids will be fine" saying, and even my wife walks around professing it. My response is always, that they could be better.

I know I need to survive and thrive. For me and for my boys.

Thanks for all your encouragement.
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Confused, please take a step back. Re-read 23-29 in DR. Do not give in to your despair. Do not just give up because it hurts. Stand strong for your M and for your boys.

Learn to detach because every marriage needs you to stand on your own, even when you are together. We tend to lose ourselves in M and then we can only see the blend. You need to be strong and focused right now.

I haven't been here since way back on page 8 because I had things going on. I will read back.

I highly recommend you get a few fishing poles and take those boys fishing. Go to movies. Finger paint. Bake cookies. Take them to a park. Go swimming. Go to the beach. Go to festivals.

Let your boys tell their mother the details of what you do, not you.

I know you can do this.


The Wifey,

Thanks for your suggestion - I will re-read those sections. I do feel despair right now, but I know I can't give up. I actually contacted someone from my church small group and she suggested I join a men's group that meets on Monday nite as well as offering her prayers. It feels like that's all I got right now, is prayer and faith, but I do believe that is the most powerful thing to have in situations like this.

I do agree 100% with what you said about losing ourselves. A few of my friends post bomb had said that I need to be me, not figure out who my wife wants me to be. If me is not that person, it won't be real and won't work. Problem is that I haven't been me in such a long time, I don't know who me is. That's something that I've been trying to find for the last 4 months. There are times that I feel like I'm getting closer, but then anther bomb hits me (it was just divorce legal crap, but now the job thing). When the bomb hits me, I get lost again and lose grip of the pieces I had found. Although each time, it is quicker to regain the lost ground. So I guess that is something to be grateful for.

It's funny that you mention fishing, my boys had gotten fishing rods as presents 2 years ago, but I had never found time to taking them. I was always to busy with the job or projects around the house or things to the point I neglected the people around me (not just my wife). About 3 weeks ago, I was lamenting to one of my buddies about wanting to take them fishing, but didn't know how to get a fishing license. He said he was going to help me out, so I'm going to call him tomorrow and find out.

The boys and I have been do the other things already, movies, making a cake, park, etc as I've really been more focused on sharing experiences with them vs. just buying them things. I had used to take them to the park or bike riding a lot, but realized over the last year or two (prior to the bomb), most of the "special" time I spent with them involved going to the toy store or book store and letting them pick something out. I did use that time to also teach them about money, but it wasn't the relationship/bonding time we (father and sons) should have.

I appreciate you taking the time to catch up on my situation. This job loss bomb is a major distraction, but I still am trying to save my marriage.

Thanks for all your help
Originally Posted By: stuck808
I know you're hurting because right now you need the support of someone who cares for what you're going through. Right now it's not your W. I felt the same way when my W was indifferent towards my job. My W didn't even call me to ask if I still had my job. So when my grandmother went into her surgery and I felt down, I already knew I couldn't depend on my W. Just myself.

Stop and take a look at what you have right now. RIGHT NOW. Look what's right in front of you. You've got your brains, you've got two healthy kids and you've got the guts to be the man it takes to do what you have to do.

Have you ever seen the movie "Pursuit of Happyness"? That shows you what fathers can and will do.

You say your kids are watching you right now. When they grow up to become men themselves, what image do you want them to remember you by? The sullen, sulking dad, or the one who stood strong and fought for them. My Ds know what I am. What about you?


Stuck,

I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother. There are times when I am wallowing in my woo's that I forget that many other here are suffering as well.

I know I can't count on my wife for support. I've really used these past 5 months to reconnect with my family and close friends. I have been leaning on them pretty heavy and had started to back off a little, but know I'm back to heavy again.

I will look for that movie you suggested, I have been thinking about finding a nite where I take a break from dealing with this situation nor trying to find a job or tweaking my resume. It has been sooooo long since I've just taken a minute to breath and think. Even when I was at the gym or church, I was always processing my situation. I know I need to relax and unwind to recharge. I'm no good to anyone if I'm not 100%.

I need to count my blessing for the things I still have and not wallow on what I don't. Thanks for reminding me of that.

I know right now my boys need me to be stronger than ever. My cousin the other nite told me when her parents got divorced, she said the greatest pain she had to face/deal with was being scared for her parents. She said that she had a knot in her stomach and it took a long time for it to go away. I know the feeling as that's the knot that has been in my stomach since 1/9/09.

I want my boys to become men that are strong and resilient and never giving up and constantly raising the bar to move forward. I know that they will only be that way by seeing me be that man.

Thanks Stuck - for everything.
Confused,

I know almost nothing about your sitch as I am still trying to get to know as many people, as many sitches as time will allow. But I just wanted to pop in after reading just a few recent posts to tell you that I was a recruiter for a number of years and if you need an ear or any advice about any aspect of job searching (resume, interview, planning, targeting...or recruiters), I'd be glad to answer/offer anything that may be of use, offline, personal email, whatever.
Just some journaling

My 3 year old still has school for the rest of this week, but starting next week, he will be going just for 2 days/week (only way to make sure he has a spot in the fall). My 7 year old is home with me for the next 1.5 weeks as his first camp won't be till then (he'll be going 3 days/week) I didn't want him to miss out on everything because of my/our situation. So he will be going 3 days every other week. That will be a nice mix as they will each have one on one days with me as well as days where all 3 of us are together and I'll still have days where I have days for me (hopefully to interview). The only risk is if I have to schedule interviews, but then I'll just work out something with their camp/school or my mother in law or friends to watch them.

Great day overall with my with 7 year old. After we dropped off his brother at school, we went grocery shopping to pick up lunch and dinner for the next 2 days. Then we had breakfast at home (just cereal) where my 7 year old commented about how it has been such a long time since it was just the two of us with a day together. After we ate, I told him I had to take some time for a call (it was a recruiter to get her thoughts on tweaking my resume).

We then wound up reading and then playing video games before having lunch. Then we had to get ready to go to his brother's parent/teacher conference. I brought him along and had him sit nearby reading while I met with the 3 year old's teachers.

When we got home, we wound up playing baseball together. While I was making dinner, the boys played in their playroom. It was great to hear them laughing and giggling and having such a good time. I even turned off my Ipod so I can really hear them clearly.

We ate dinner and dessert. After bath, my 7 year old shared with me his "First Grade Memory" book that his class made. He read me the poem and science story her wrote. I told him how proud I was with how far he had come in school.

Then my 3 year old went over his portfolio that showed his progress and things/experiences he had throughout the year. That was also great the way he was able to tell stories for each of the pictures and crafts that he had made.

It was a great evening (even with my struggle with trying to get the kids to call their mom - I gave up trying to get them to call). They went to bed right away when it was time.

So, aside from my job loss and my wife had filed for divorce and left, life is just GREAT!
Originally Posted By: Gardener
Confused,

I know almost nothing about your sitch as I am still trying to get to know as many people, as many sitches as time will allow. But I just wanted to pop in after reading just a few recent posts to tell you that I was a recruiter for a number of years and if you need an ear or any advice about any aspect of job searching (resume, interview, planning, targeting...or recruiters), I'd be glad to answer/offer anything that may be of use, offline, personal email, whatever.


Gardener,

I am real sorry that you are here, but I do appreciate your offer of help. It would be great if we can figure out how to connect offline/via personal email.

Does you or anyone know how to send a private message to another person?

Thanks I appreciate the offer.
I don't Know how. The Send a PM thingy says it's disabled...

Anyone?
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa


I appreciate you taking the time to catch up on my situation. This job loss bomb is a major distraction, but I still am trying to save my marriage.

Thanks for all your help


I had a computer issue, and that was why I hadn't been around. I will always go back and check on people I've posted to.

I was laid off a month ago. Darned if it didn't faze me in the least. If it had happened before the bomb I would most likely have been devastated. But, in the scheme of things, it didn't even compare to the bomb.

Think of it this way, you have nearly 46 weeks of unemployment you are eligible for. Granted, the money isn't as large as what you were making, but you can live on it conservatively.

The pages in the DR book refer to well-meaning family/friends and the advice you will get. Even here, people are human and don't want you to hurt any more than people in the real, non-cyber world.

The very best thing you can do to save your m is to GAL. Honestly, for a long while it will seem like you are only going through the motions because it is so hard not to focus on your W and what is going on. But truly give it your all.

I mention fishing because that has been such a high point in my life the last year. And, getting laid off at the beginning of fishing season has actually made unemployment look pretty good so far. : ) My H has even made comments about my fishing and how much I am enjoying it.

GAL will give your W the SPACE she needs in her own head. It is so important to give her that SPACE. I capitalize it to emphasize this. If the only thing she sees is you focused on how you hurt, the less she will believe that you care about how she feels.

I know that sounds strange to you. But, no spouse just wakes up one morning and decides it is a good day to get a divorce or separate. She had to get to this point. That takes time. She has feelings that maybe don't make sense to you right now, but they are her feelings.

Don't push, take a breath, step back and most of all, don't let anyone's opinion of what you should do decide for you what you should do. I know the time you've been here seems like an eternity and you want it to be all better right now.

Instead, read what the WA's write. It will help you more than anyone else's posts. GAL. Focus on your boys. Fish. Be friendly and don't answer anger with anger. Be patient. And when you need to melt down have at it. It is manly to be able to cry. Just don't share the despair with your W. Come here instead.
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa


I have been thinking about finding a nite where I take a break from dealing with this situation nor trying to find a job or tweaking my resume. It has been sooooo long since I've just taken a minute to breath and think.

I need to count my blessing for the things I still have and not wallow on what I don't. Thanks for reminding me of that.


The first is an absolute must. How about a whole series of nights? There isn't anything you can actively do RIGHT NOW to deal with the sitch. Breath. Think. Drink coffee. Drink and adult beverage. Go see a movie. Watch a sunrise. Look at the stars. Notice the world around you.

The best way I've found to be grateful is my gratefulness journal. I can fill a whole page every day and sometimes more. There are wonderful things in your life that you just have to slow down and notice.
Wifey,

I recently checked in on your sitch. Just now, I thought I'd drop back in on cofusedinpa. Your last two posts to confused did me a world of good to read...just never know who you're gonna touch...
So, thank you. Now I'm going to bed in a more hopeful mood (and you're right about the Gratefulness Journal. Mine's titled Abundances).
Thanks again.
I am glad I could help you. I have found helping and supporting other people helps me the most. Now, off to bed. I have to get up early and drive my Sis and Mother to yard sales. : )
I think you need to remember, yes, they are kids, but they are PEOPLE with feelings. You can't really make them do certain things....it might be worse in the long run. But this is a very gray area.
TELL the kids you are going to call Mommy, so get ready to talk to her in just a second. Maybe have a topic for them to talk to her about.....the seven year old got an A on a spelling quiz, whatever it maybe. Don't ask them anymore.
I say it's a gray area because you don't need accusations that you are keeping her from speaking with Mommy.
But as for last night, no, you can't force them to do something like that because they might hurt her feelings by being honest...."I didn't want to call you but daddy made me...."
As for things seemingly going poorly right now for everyone here....I read a weird article that more couples will reconcile during the cold winter months than in the hot summer months.....the article suggested it's like crime....crime goes down in the winter because everyone is home and not out in the cold. But in the summer, you can go out and committ crimes in a more comfortable climate. In the winter you want to snuggle at home, in the summer you want to go out and enjoy the outdoors.....interesting....who really knows?
Stay strong. No more talk about divorce. CHANGE THE SUBJECT immediately. She wants to bring up the kids thinking she's the bad guy simply remind her: They are people with their own minds. Neither one of us should assume what they are thinking now or what they will think 20 years from now. then change the subject.
Originally Posted By: stillloveshim
TELL the kids you are going to call Mommy, so get ready to talk to her in just a second. Maybe have a topic for them to talk to her about.....the seven year old got an A on a spelling quiz, whatever it maybe. Don't ask them anymore.
I say it's a gray area because you don't need accusations that you are keeping her from speaking with Mommy.

I tried this route tonite. I asked if the boys wanted to tell mommy about the baseball game we had at home. They said sure. We called but she didn't answer. I could see my 7 year old was really upset about it - I think that's why he doesn't want to call. A few times we called, she didn't answer. I told them to just say goodnite when it was time to leave a message. Which they did.

She did call back about 15 minutes later. She said she was taking out the trash and had missed the call. The boys told her about the baseball game we had and then said goodnite. It seemed like she wanted to keep talking to them, but they weren't interested.

She asked them about making a father's day card for me. My 7 year old said that he wanted to make the card at home. She asked if they wanter her to help. He said yes. She asked me if it was ok for her to come over to help them. I said, in as upbeat and positive tone I could manage, "Sure, that wouldn't be a problem".

She then asked me what we wanted to do for lunch on Sunday before going to the baseball game. My boys suggested burgers, so she said that if I wanted to get the burgers, she could bring potato salad and fruit salad. I said only if it was her homemade potato salad. She said of course it would be. I told her that sounded great and told the boys the plan. The boys were excited as well.

Then before she hung up, she got really quiet and I could hear her crying/sobbing.

I went to my den and asked what was wrong. As she cried and sobbed, she said it has been such a long time since she had seen them and really miss them. I told her that if she wanted to see them tomorrow, she could join us for breakfast or if she wanted to take them bowling or something. She said that she would join us for breakfast if I could call her in the morning. I said only if she could bring cheese over as I was planning on making ham and cheese omlets but our 3 year old ate all the cheese tonite.

She then said that she was really sad and didn't know what she wanted and continued to cry/sob. At that point our 3 year old interupted the call. I told her I had to go, but asked her if she wanted me to call her back after I put them to bed. She said if I had a chance.

I know that was dumb, but what really is a kicker, is that I called and she didn't answer. Not sure if she's asleep or playing games or doesn't want to talk to me or what, but it's really making me mad that I fall for her sobbing/crying. I really don't know what game she is playing other than trying to see if she can still control me like others here had suggested.

I need to remember what others have said as well, just give her time and space. Patience is the key. Don't be over eager nor too cold. Balance is the critical. I'm trying to be a friend, but it's hard.
CIPA,

If you want to get your mind off of your sitch, you should read the action that was going on in my thread today. Very animated and I learned alot.
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
The best way I've found to be grateful is my gratefulness journal. I can fill a whole page every day and sometimes more. There are wonderful things in your life that you just have to slow down and notice.


That's a great idea - I think I'm going to start one today!

It had been a great day with my boys. My 3 year old still had school today, but I had my 7 year old with me all day. After breakfast, I hit the computer to do more job searches and more resume tweaking and networking for a couple of hours. Then he and I played video games together until lunch. Afterwards, we did the yard work together (mow the grass, pulling weeds from the flowerbeds, etc). It was hard work but during one of our water breaks, he said that he felt like a real grown up doing it. I told him how proud I was of him and how much I loved him. He just had a big grin on his face. Now that is a gratefulness moment!

Afterwards, we played some basketball and had a catch before going to pick up his little brother.

The three of us had a great game of baseball, before we decided to go for a bike ride around our development. The 3 year old rode his "big boy bike" (training wheels, not a tricycle) for the second time. Even though he couldn't keep up with his big brother, he was so proud of himself. He only went around once, but his brother went around 4 times. Each time, he would stop and the three of us would take a break and just talk. This was another huge gratefulness moment.

In the past, I wouldn't have enjoyed the moment like that. I would have just been thinking we have to hurry through the ride so we can get back home to start dinner or do the next thing. I now understand what they mean when they say its not the destination, but the journey. That is what my wife and marriage counselor had been trying to say last year. I am such a DAM for not getting it until my wife's bomb. I know it's not too late to enjoy life with this new understanding, but do regret not getting it until now because of what it had done to my marriage.

I am trying to show my wife that I'm taking life with a different outlook now. Not because of I want to do it for my wife, but because I see it's a better way of living life.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
CIPA,

If you want to get your mind off of your sitch, you should read the action that was going on in my thread today. Very animated and I learned alot.


Stuck

I have been following it - I have it on my watch list. I can't believe the traffic and all the dialog going on. There is definitely a lot of quality debate going on.
Well she called me. She said that she missed the call as she was out in her car looking for her bluetooth headpiece.

She sounded very calm and collected (unlike earlier) so I just asked how she was doing.

She said that she was really sad and down today because she really missed the kids. She said that she was really glad that I had them since she wasn't feeling well and had so much work to do. I reminded her that she'll see them on Sunday for the father's day baseball game, but if she wanted to see them on Sat, we can still do breakfast thing or whatever. She asked me to call her in the morning for breakfast.

Then she started on about how the splitting of the time will be so much more difficult now that the transition will be at home with me (instead of school). I just told her I really hadn't given it much thought, but would be interested if she had any suggestions/thoughts. She hadn't either so I just said that we'll just have to think about it and work out something to try.

She then started complaining about work and how busy/crazy it was. After few minutes of it, I heard her yawn so I made a comment that it was getting late so I was going to let her go to bed.

So no mention of her statement of not sure of what she wants. So it sounds like she keeping herself on the Divorce train. I don't ask nor press the issue.

I still need to get myself out of this low spot that I'm in and need to make sure that while I'm doing it, that the boys will see the man that I want them to be.

Survive to thrive!
I think this is the first 24 hours that I made it through without posting about my wife.

Although I may have cheated as my wife came over about 8:30 this morning to have breakfast with the boys and I. After breakfast we chatted about how she was feeling and her work stress and my job search. I also talked about how I wanted to buy a bar/resturant as a change of career (something I always wanted to do was to own a night club). She didn't seemed thrilled as she didn't understand it, but I just tossed it out there.

The kids played while we chatted.

Then we talked about some tactical stuff about the kids - i.e. which weeks we would send our 7 year to camp and for how many days; how to handle next week (we will meet for dinner on Tuesday nite and I'll get the kids back then)

We also talked about handling the logistics for the baseball game tomorrow we were going to go to for Father's day.

She then helped the boys make up father's day cards for me.

At that point it was getting close to lunch. I asked if she wanted to stay for lunch so she offered to teach me how to make her tuna noodle cassarole that the boys love. She went to the store to pick up what we needed (I gave her the cash) and we made it together and ate it for lunch.

While we were making lunch, I did try the compliments thing that was mentioned in Stuck's thread. I just made note of how it looked like she had lost some weight. She talked about it some of what she is trying to do to lose weight.

After lunch, she and I chatted some more. She started to complain about her back so I rubbed it a little as she rested against the kitchen island. Then she asked me to crack her back with a hug. She said it really helped, but it was still tight. So I told her to lie down on a pillow in the family room as I gave her a massage like I used to when we first started dating. She almost fell asleep while I massaged her back.

As she laid on the floor, she mentioned how worried she was about me as how I first lost the family and now the job. I told her that losing the job definitely s**ked, it didn't really faze me too much as I know what I need to do to about that. I've done it several times in the past, albeit just to find promotional opportunities, this is the first from an unemployed situation and in such a crappy economy.

I did tell her that I am not limiting my searches to any particular area, but am focusing on something in the tri-state area. I said before I made any decision, I will talk with her to let her know what was going on since it may impact the kids.

Then I tried to shift the conversation to something lighter. We talked about some funny things from when we were together (she laughed) and some funny stories about the kids. We even pulled up an old video we made of our 3 year old. The four of us really had a good laugh at that one.

It was past the time our 3 year old took his nap at that point so he started getting cranky. I said I was going to take him upstairs so I asked if she wanted to say goodbye to him. She did and the three of us waved bye to her from the window when she left around 1:30 PM

I put our 3 year down for his nap and I went to play video games with our 7 year old. After the 3 year old woke up, it finally stopped raining so the 3 of us went for a bike ride around the development (this time the 3 year old went around twice). His big brother beat him in a race but when he saww how upset the 3 year old, he let him win the second race.

Then the 3 of us played catch (baseball) and then basketball.

I had to make dinner so we went inside. Had a good dinner and played after the baths.

It was a good day.

I even wound up networking with someone who may be able to help me do some consulting work while I look for a full time job. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Well, made it through another 24 hour period without posting about my wife.

Again, I may have cheated as I spent most of the day with my wife and kids. She came over about 10:30 AM to have an early lunch before the 4 of left to go to the baseball game at 11:30 AM.

We chatted and had a beer while we made lunch. She had brought a sushi roll for the 2 of us to share as an appetizer, along with a watermellon for the boys to eat with lunch (hot dogs and chips). She also brought snacks for us to take to the baseball game.

Before we left for the game, she had the boys give me the card that she helped them make yesterday.

We drove to the game and continued to have some light conversation (joking and laughing). When we got to the game, we wound up sitting next to each other and the boys were to my right. She had gotten a text from one of her girl friends a few times during the game, but generally, we spent most of it just having a good time. We each had a couple of beers and things seemed pretty good.

It was a pretty good game (27 hits and 15 runs scored), although we lost 8 to 7.

We started driving home and she asked if I wanted to have dinner with her and the boys. I said sure and we wound up at a steak place. She and I sat next to each other in the booth until the boys started going at it with each other. I told her that I think we're going to have to seperate them so we wound up sitting opposite each other. We continued to chat and just have some pretty light/lively conversation.

It was a really good day until we got home. Then my 3 year old asked if she was going to stay. She said that they were going to her apartment and we were just dropping daddy off at home. He started freaking out and I could see our 7 year old getting upset as well as he tried to comfort his little brother. I leaned in and gave them each a big hug and kiss and told them that I will see them in a couple of days as mommy wants them to visit her apartment. I told them that they can call me tonite to say good nite if they wanted to. My wife said that they would call after they got baths.

As they drove away, the 3 of them said happy father's day, but I could see the 2 boys were still sad. Once they got of site, I couldn't take it anymore and went into the house and cried. It was a crappy way to end father's day.

I called up one of my friends (the divorced couple who are very pro find your soulmate if you aren't happy in your relationship as that's what happened to them). They invited me over as they could tell I was a wreak.

I spent about 3 hours with them. They kept harping on the fact that I need to accept that it's over and let it go. Their analogy was letting a bird go and me standing out back waiting for it to come back while I kept tossing out bird seeds and building elaborate bird houses to attract it back. They said I can't just stand out back waiting and hopping it comes back while life past me by. I need to let it go and accept that it flew away and move on with my life. (I got annoyed with that part of the discussion, but I took it that they just didn't want to see me hurting so badly).

Then the conversation shifted to what many people here have said, make the changes for me and the boys, don't do it to attract her back. So that part helped.

After that we talked about how I can't feel guilty about what I did in the past unless I consciously made the decision to neglect/hurt my wife. They both pressed me that if I didn't do it on purpose, I need to forgive myself and let it go.

Then we had an interesting discussion on whether or not my wife was acting selfishly. This is where I disagreed with them. They said that if my wife wasn't happy, she isn't acting selfishly by leaving as it wouldn't be good for the boys to see her unhappy. I wasn't sure if I really bought into that one. Is she being selfish that she gets to decide to end the marriage and break up the family because she has given up?

They both kept saying that the boys would be fine as they will adjust. I countered that I'm sure that they would be but would they be better if my my wife and I could reconcile and develop the relationship that we both want, wouldn't the boys be even better. They agreed that it would be, but said that it's not going to happen as long as it's not what she wants.

So then I said, isn't that being selfish as it's all about what she wants, not what the other people in the family want?

Curious what other people's thoughts are on this one.

We had a pretty long discussion on this one but left it as I see what they are trying to say, but I needed to mull this one over some more.

Hope people had a happy dad day!
Just remembered one other point we had a long discussion on. My friends kept harping that I need to draw the line with my wife that we should stop doing things together with the kids. They said that us spending breakfast and lunch together at home on Sat and then lunch and dinner together on Sun while going to a baseball game is going to mess up the kids. They said to them, everytime we are together and then part ways, the kids are seeing us get divorced/separated again each time.

The four of us are suppose to have dinner together on Tuesday (I will take the boys home on Tues nite), rather than her driving out to the house on Weds AM (her suggestion).

When I asked how does that help in getting back together if we never see each other that's when they said that I need to just accept that it's over and let it go.

So, curious on other people's thoughts here.

Do I stop all contact with her so the kids don't get confused or how should I handle these little "family" functions that we get together for?
Just some quick thoughts.

I didnt like the comment your WAW made about "first you lost your family now your job.." Not a good mind set for her. She now sounds more final then before. I agree with your friends about spending time as a family. I dont think that part is working for her. I think she is still "cake eating". I think she comes closer to you when you are more distant.

I also agree with you about your WAW's selfishness. It is very selfish to make a decision that you are not happy and want to walk away from the family. Some situations are bad (Abuse, infidelity, etc...) but unless the communication was there and counseling has been addressed I definitely agree S and D should be the LAST option. Unfortunately in today's INSTANT GRATIFICATION society it's sometimes the first option. Im NOT happy so it must be my marriage. First you need to look in the mirror before you blame it on something else. I think she's played the victim card for TOO long now and it's TIME you just go dark and let her finalize things if that's what she needs to do. She is definitely sending YOU mixed messages and YOUR kids. In other words "Put up or shut up..." She is just playing games IMP.

Im hoping if you give her more space she will truly see what she is doing.

PMA
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
Just some quick thoughts.

I didnt like the comment your WAW made about "first you lost your family now your job.." Not a good mind set for her. She now sounds more final then before. I agree with your friends about spending time as a family. I dont think that part is working for her. I think she is still "cake eating". I think she comes closer to you when you are more distant.

I also agree with you about your WAW's selfishness. It is very selfish to make a decision that you are not happy and want to walk away from the family. Some situations are bad (Abuse, infidelity, etc...) but unless the communication was there and counseling has been addressed I definitely agree S and D should be the LAST option. Unfortunately in today's INSTANT GRATIFICATION society it's sometimes the first option. Im NOT happy so it must be my marriage. First you need to look in the mirror before you blame it on something else. I think she's played the victim card for TOO long now and it's TIME you just go dark and let her finalize things if that's what she needs to do. She is definitely sending YOU mixed messages and YOUR kids. In other words "Put up or shut up..." She is just playing games IMP.

Im hoping if you give her more space she will truly see what she is doing.

PMA


PMA_Baby!

I know my situation sounds final when hearing her words. About 3 weeks ago, she had called crying and saying the same things she had said back on 1/9/09 when she dropped the I filed for divorce bomb. She kept harping on how she does want to be my wife any more since she can't trust me with her feelings to be vulnerable with me anymore.

Up to that point, I had been trying Dark (albeit pretty poorly). I never contacted her and the only interactions we would have, she would initiate. But when we did have contact, I acted like a cold jerk because I was trying to stay dark, even when we were together.

About a week or so before that crying call, I learned that when we are together, I shouldn't remain dark. I shouldn't act needy but should act like the best CIPA I can be - warm, friendly, attentive, caring and upbeat. Up till that point, most of our interactions had been around our 3 year old's baseball game. Those games ended 3 weeks ago, just before she called crying saying that she still doesn't want to be wife.

We hadn't seen each other much for the week after that. We communicated a few times (phone, emails, text) where she initiated contact. That's when I tried to be the best CIPA I could be during those interactons. A week ago Sat, she needed someone to take her to her doctor (she was in so much pain that she couldn't drive), so I took her. On Monday, when I lost my job, we spent several hours together, but she started by saying that this didn't change anything between us.

She called Friday nite crying saying she missed the kids as I had them all week since she wasn't feeling well. The she said she was sad and didn't know what she wanted (it may have been hormone related as it was that time of the month for her). Later that Friday nite, we talked again, she had gathered herself and didn't mention anything about her comment about being sad and didn't know what she wanted. Then we spent a lot of time together this past weekend with the kids after

It was on Sat, the day before Father's day is when she had said the comment of how she was/is really worried about me as it was so much to handle, losing the family and now my job. I know she was/is worried about my depression and/or me doing something stupid.

So, for the past 3-4 weeks, I've been trying the friendly route when she calls or we're together. Soccer starts in a couple of weeks for my 7 year old so we'll be together 2 nites/week for that. I'm worried how my job loss will affect this situation. But it happened, so I just need to make the best of it.

The one silver lining is that I will get to spend a lot of time with my boys this summer.

I'll continue to give her space and hope for the best. In the mean while, I will focus on my kids and finding a job and on me.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

CIPA
C - Sounds like you're doing the BEST you can. Which is whats important. Just like everyone on here stresses just continue to become the BEST version of yourself you can. If she has her mind made up that SHE CANT FORGIVE the past then that is her stuff. I know I DEAL with FORGIVENESS everyday in regard to what my X did. I try FORGIVING HER everyday as well as myself. It's not always easy, but necessary. At some point she will have to realize that you can't change the past and have to do what's best for the present and future. Hopefully, she will realize staying together and working on a new R and M is what is best for all of you.

Stay strong and keep praying for patience and Love,

PMA
Well it was a good day with some minor bizzare things.

My wife dropped our 7 year old off to me today (he doesn't have school/camp this week - trying to control cost with my job loss) and since my 3 year old still has school on Mon and Tues, it was just me and my 7 year old.

I made sure that I was showered, shaved and dressed when she dropped him off. I tried to be very upbeat and chipper. My son ran into the house and gave me a big hug with a huge smile and said he missed me (even though he had just seen me less than 12 hour ago). She made a joke of "Is this Daddy Day Care?" when I opened the door. I just laughed and smiled. Very minor chit chat before she left.

Throughout the day, my 7 year old and I had a great day. He made a comment of how it has been such a long time since it was he and daddy day (basically since his little brother was born). We did everything that he wanted to do but would normally be interfered with by his little brother so we couldn't. He generally is good natured about it, but I know it bothers him. So I basically made the entire day about him.

My wife called up mid day about some minor chit chat (i.e. she will put the pictures she took on Sunday on a memory stick for me, etc.) and did ask to talk to our 7 year old.

When my son and I were on a bike ride, I got a call from my wife asking if her mom could pick up our son about early since she wanted to visit with him. I tried to stay sounding upbeat and positive, and just said sure.

I told my son we had to start heading home as he was going to get picked up early. He started to cry saying he didn't want to go as he wanted to stay. I hugged him and said we will have another daddy tomorrow.

Her mom picked him up, and she didn't even want to come in. She stayed at arms length/distant but did offer sympathy due to my job loss. I tried to stay upbeat and positive saying that it really hasn't fazed me as it seems very minor in the entire realm of things.

Here's where the odd part comes in - around 7:00 PM, my wife calls to complain about how noisy the dryer is in her apartment. I wanted to say the one at home is really quiet, so just come on back if it's that bad, but of course I didn't. She did bring up how it sounded like our old one so I figure she knew that. I let her go on for a few minutes, listening like a friend would. Then I said that I would let her go as I know it's getting close to giving the boys their baths.

Then around 10PM tonite, she text me that it was a beautiful nite out so I should go out in our patio to enjoy it. I thought about just ignoring it, but it just seemed so odd that curiousity got the better of me. She answered and it sounded like she was crying. I asked her what was wrong? She said one of her friend's younger brother has brain cancer and doesn't sound like he will make it through the week. He is 42. So she was sad about that.

I tried to be sympathetic and after a few minutes, said that it was getting late so I should let her got to bed soon. So I said goodnite.

I've been tweaking my resume and sent it out to a few more recruiters that I've worked with before. I did call one of my friends to network on a start up opportunity, but it didn't sound like it was something I would go for.

So I'm still working on my situation, the job part and the WAW. I know what I need to do to try and find a job, I'm still clueless about the WAW.
CIPA,

Sorry to hear about the ending of your Father's Day. With all due respect to your older couple friends, I think the soulmate thing is a load of BS. Anyone, any marriage can work if people work on it.

The reason why second M might seem to work better is because they gloss over alot of the issues they had before. We all know that. But oh well, that's why DR warned us about "well-meaning" friends.

You're still talking to her WAYYY too much. you've got to cut back on that. I guess when I was S, it was so much easier because my W never called. Period. She still doesn't when she's not at home.

Do I miss it? Hell ya. But I look at the fact that she's home now and I try to work on that. You haven't had that detachment happen yet.

Work on that first. Good luck on the job hunt.

Oh yeah, and I made it for 72 hours without posting.
Dude.....keep the fight going. She's COMPLETELY falling apart. In terms of doing things with her and the kids....I say do it. But maybe cut back the amount of time you spend together as a family. Also remember as people give you advice on how to handle this situation....they don't live with the day to day and the def. won't live with the outcome. So basically, I would ignore them but in a sweet I know you care about me kind of way.
I know with the job situation this might be harder, but you need to get out more when you don't have the kids. You need to let the kids know that when you don't have them you aren't just sitting at home and no, it's not so they can go back and tell mommy, it's so they know you aren't home moping and sad. It will make them, esp. the 7 year old feel better to know, Daddy is ok and having a nice time when he is alone.
I think it's time she know that you can and will go on with your life without her. You aren't the one having break downs right now. You are the stronger one and you are in just as much control over this as she is.
And by the way....open your club. That sounds like an amazing idea. I hope you do it.
Originally Posted By: PMA_Baby!
C - Sounds like you're doing the BEST you can. Which is whats important. Just like everyone on here stresses just continue to become the BEST version of yourself you can. If she has her mind made up that SHE CANT FORGIVE the past then that is her stuff. I know I DEAL with FORGIVENESS everyday in regard to what my X did. I try FORGIVING HER everyday as well as myself. It's not always easy, but necessary. At some point she will have to realize that you can't change the past and have to do what's best for the present and future. Hopefully, she will realize staying together and working on a new R and M is what is best for all of you.

Stay strong and keep praying for patience and Love,

PMA


PMA_Baby!

Thanks for the support and encouragement.

I know she's not forgiving enough to let go of the past to trust me again. That's her choice. Ironically, the retired couple that I talked to asked if I can forgive her for what's she's done, even if she came back. I was a little taken back by the question, as I never thought that I would not forgive her. Initially I felt sorry for how much hurt she felt that she was enduring while I was plodding along in my own world fat dumb and happy that things were going great. Now, with my job loss, I'm really focusing more on that situation now and haven't spent as much time thinking about her.

Maybe this will be a good thing as it will distract/detach me from the relationship situation. Who knows.

I do hope that she sees a way to have a happy life with me. Right now, I think she's relieved to be in her own place and away from me.

Thanks again

CIPA
Originally Posted By: stuck808
CIPA,

Sorry to hear about the ending of your Father's Day. With all due respect to your older couple friends, I think the soulmate thing is a load of BS. Anyone, any marriage can work if people work on it.

The reason why second M might seem to work better is because they gloss over alot of the issues they had before. We all know that. But oh well, that's why DR warned us about "well-meaning" friends.

You're still talking to her WAYYY too much. you've got to cut back on that. I guess when I was S, it was so much easier because my W never called. Period. She still doesn't when she's not at home.

Do I miss it? Hell ya. But I look at the fact that she's home now and I try to work on that. You haven't had that detachment happen yet.

Work on that first. Good luck on the job hunt.

Oh yeah, and I made it for 72 hours without posting.


Congrats on staying forum free for 72 hours. I took it in slices of 24 hours - can't remember all the stuff that's goes on past that so if I don't journal here, I won't remember it.

I know we seem to be talking a lot lately. I think between her worrying I'm going to slip into a depression and do something stupid about my job loss and the fact that I'm watching the kids more often now (instead of school/camp), we are seeing each other more. During those times, I try to be the best CIPA I can be.

I never call her to chit chat and when she calls me, I try to keep it short and be the one to end the call.

This morning at 6:15 AM, she called to ask if I heard if there was anything going on near her apt as she's heard a lot of sirens and helicopters going by. I told her I didn't but would turn on the news. At 7:00 AM she asked if I heard anything. I said that the only thing on the news was the DC Train crash. When she dropped my 7 year old off at home, I asked how was traffic and if she had seen/heard anything. She said no, and chit chatted for a couple of minutes before she asked if I could hug her to crack her back. I did but it wouldn't crack. So then she asked if she laid on the floor if I could massage/press it as it was really bothering her. I did and then when I gave her a hug to crack her back, it cracked. I joked "Was it good for you?" and she just smiled and said "Thanks".

When she got in the car to drive away, she did look back and waved bye when she saw me.

So goes this friendly dance. I just hope it doesn't stop as just friends......
I got behind and finally had to skip over some pages b/c I've been reading too much and getting a bad headache. Anyway, what I wanted to tell you is this: as you know, I've been M a long time. My H and I have been through many bad experiences. Just some of that was him not having a job...on more than one occassion. Everytime this happened, I would worry and get scared, etc., except for the last time.....that time I felt I had grown enough and had learned that God was going to take care of us as long as He had a plan for us here on Earth! Don't mean to sound as if I am making something serious sound simple, but it depends on "faith" and if you have it and "Who" you have faith in. Our faith was in God and it was Him we trusted to help us find the work for my H. Yes, it was a test but I think we did better that last time than we did the first time he was without a job. It can be a growing experience or it can break you. Our country is in scary times, but my parents went through the great depression when they were kids and I heard my grandparents talk about it......not something I would want to live through for sure. What I'm trying to say (in a not so good of a way) is that you are going to be okay. Please know that. You will have to search hard but you will find the job for you. Might be that you will have to settle for something "less" than what you wanted...for a period of time.....but it will be okay. If I did not believe that 100% I would not tell you. I can't promise that your M will be fine b/c your W has some serious issues. One being that she is a selfish b*thch!! To a man, his job is part of "who" is is and he bases a lot of his self-esteem on his work. It's too bad that she is too dumb and self-centered to realize that. It's time for you to go into self survival mode and stop worrying about her. She will drive you nuts if you continue to listen to that negative crushing talk.

One more thing.....about the 7 year old. Couples today talk way too much in front of their children. I can't imagine being 7 years old and worried that I would not have a place to live or how we would make it the next day. He is worried that mommy isn't coming home! That is heartbreaking. You may not have a job, sweetie, but you can offer your children security just by giving them your physcial presence and love. Reassuring them that they will be taken care of and both parents love them. That's all kids really want, to know they have both their parents and are loved.

Talk to you later,
Sandi

I think the thing is that you have to break out of the friend mode. You start showing her confidence and it'll attract her back. Right now you said that she was "worried" that you might slip into depression. HELLO?! You've outgrown that right?

From what you've learned here and in DR, there should be nothing that you should be depressed about. You are happy in your abilities and confident in yourself and your efforts.

I think you're definitely still giving off that needy vibe. She's already friendly with you, now's the time to show off your confident side especially in the face of the layoff. You don't want her to feel sorry for you or worried about you. You are the one who is going to survive because you've been to hell and back. Show her that side when you meet her face to face, but GAL to build yourself back up.

You may not realize it, but maybe when you leave, you have a hang dog expression on your face that she catches. Change that asap. Put on your warrior face and show that you can do what it takes to get the job done because you've got the tools and talent to do so.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
One more thing.....about the 7 year old. Couples today talk way too much in front of their children. I can't imagine being 7 years old and worried that I would not have a place to live or how we would make it the next day. He is worried that mommy isn't coming home! That is heartbreaking. You may not have a job, sweetie, but you can offer your children security just by giving them your physcial presence and love. Reassuring them that they will be taken care of and both parents love them. That's all kids really want, to know they have both their parents and are loved.

Sandi,

Thank you so much for your support and encouragement in sharing what you and your family have gone through. This point in my life is a real trial to my charachter and faith, but I know that HE will not give me any challenge that HE has not prepared me for.

I do not have a lot of optimism in my marriage, but I still believe that it can be saved, but not without me being the man that I need to be.

I guess the silver lining in this cloud is that I am now spending more time with my boys that I have in years. I am doing all that I can to show them both that I love them and will always take care of them. My boys know that I will always provide a home for them - while it may not be the house that we have now, but even if it's just one room, we will make it home.

Ever since my cousin shared her insight of her greatest pain as a child when her parents divorced was being scared for her parents, I have tried to be VERY aware of what my boys (particularly my 7 year old) is feeling, saying and most importantly hearing and seeing. I know you have told me that as well.

This is part of doing the work for me, I need to make sure that I am the man that I want my boys to become because I know that they are watching me all the time. Whether or not my wife comes back is a secondary item as I will always be their dad. In my posts, it may seem like I focus on her alot, but much of it is because of my boys. I know the best for them is not to have to endure a seperation/divorce. I know that I can survive and thrive regardless of the outcome. I need to make sure my boys do as well.

So I need to continue to raise the bar and move my life forward. I need to live in the present and look forward to the future. The regrets of the past is the forgiveness I need to give myself. While I'm still working on that, it is getting better every day by choosing to forgive myself. I really appreciated that you shared your own story and pain in going through that as well. It is a real inspiration for me.

Thanks again for dropping by my situation again. I know you haven't been feeling well as well as being overwhelmed by request for sharing your insight and wisdom. I am glad that you are feeling better and hope that you stay that way.

Take care
Originally Posted By: stillloveshim
Dude.....keep the fight going. She's COMPLETELY falling apart. In terms of doing things with her and the kids....I say do it. But maybe cut back the amount of time you spend together as a family. Also remember as people give you advice on how to handle this situation....they don't live with the day to day and the def. won't live with the outcome. So basically, I would ignore them but in a sweet I know you care about me kind of way.
I know with the job situation this might be harder, but you need to get out more when you don't have the kids. You need to let the kids know that when you don't have them you aren't just sitting at home and no, it's not so they can go back and tell mommy, it's so they know you aren't home moping and sad. It will make them, esp. the 7 year old feel better to know, Daddy is ok and having a nice time when he is alone.
I think it's time she know that you can and will go on with your life without her. You aren't the one having break downs right now. You are the stronger one and you are in just as much control over this as she is.
And by the way....open your club. That sounds like an amazing idea. I hope you do it.


Stillloveshim,

I hope you are right that she isn't as resolved to the divorce as I sense/feel from her. I really feel like we're at a point where she and I can be friends, but she doesn't see it going any further than that.

The retired couple that I talk to know that I don't necessarily agree/buy into everything that they say. While they stand by their thoughts/opinions, the do openly recognize that I am where I am as far as what I am ready to accept/do emotional and mentally. They are good enough friends to offer their thoughts/opinions and not be offended or hurt when I do not agree with it. I always welcome their perspective as it makes me think/challenge myself in my situation.

That is a good suggestion about getting out when I don't have the kids. I really hadn't done it in the last 10 days as I have had the kids most of those days (my wife had been sick). I had two nites without the kids (Sun and Mon). I did go see my friends on Sun nite because I was a wreck. My 7 year old knows I went out as he saw that I had the top up on my Camaro. He asked why I had it up and I told him that I went to see some friends when he and his brother went to visit mommy's apt.

He knows that I go out when their not there as a couple of times that they called to say goodnite, I would be out and they would ask where I was at. I used to tell him that I was sad and miss him and his brother when they would visit mommy's apt. I think your suggestion is a good one, so today, I started saying that I missed them both when they were visiting mommy's place (I stopped saying I was sad).

Thanks for your support and encouragement.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
I think the thing is that you have to break out of the friend mode. You start showing her confidence and it'll attract her back. Right now you said that she was "worried" that you might slip into depression. HELLO?! You've outgrown that right?

From what you've learned here and in DR, there should be nothing that you should be depressed about. You are happy in your abilities and confident in yourself and your efforts.

You are absolutely right about the depression thing. I think she sees/believes that this job situation really hasn't fazed me. She knows I am pissed and think that it s*cks. Whenever she ask me about how it's going, I'm always confident, upbeat and optimistic. It may be tougher to carry that on if it drags out more than 3 months, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

Originally Posted By: stuck808
I think you're definitely still giving off that needy vibe. She's already friendly with you, now's the time to show off your confident side especially in the face of the layoff. You don't want her to feel sorry for you or worried about you. You are the one who is going to survive because you've been to hell and back. Show her that side when you meet her face to face, but GAL to build yourself back up.

You may not realize it, but maybe when you leave, you have a hang dog expression on your face that she catches. Change that asap. Put on your warrior face and show that you can do what it takes to get the job done because you've got the tools and talent to do so.


That's a really good point on the "hang dog expression". I have to be very careful/aware of what I feel/express as she drives away. It's been really tough to get a life over the past 10 days as I've had the kids most of those nites (except for Sun nite when I saw the retired couple and Mon nite).

Right now with my job situation, I will likely get the boys on Tues nite through Sun morning. I suspect that since she will only have them 2 nites (Sun and Mon) that she may ask for Sat nite as well as start alternating Fri nites so she has them 50% of the time again. We had to go off the original schedule as we had to cut back on day care/camp to reduce cost. If she does ask, it will make it easier for me to get a life with my buddies as they usually ask/want to go out on Fri or Sat nite.

Thanks for the "catch" on the "hang dog express". I have a feeling I've been doing exactly that.
Some more journaling.

I had my 7 year old today again. It was nice to have some more one on one time with him. She called a couple of times for some tactical stuff and asked to talk to him once. I did call her once to ask her if she or her mom can watch the boys for a couple of hours in the afternoon so I can go meet a recruiter.

We did meet for dinner tonite. I got there with my 7 year old first. Since it was such a nice nite, we got a table outside. I knew that was something she had always prefered and it was something that I wanted to do since it's the first nite in almost a week that it wasn't raining. When she got there, we ordered a couple of beers and when we finished those we got a pitcher.

We had a good time during dinner just laughing/joking around. Her back was really bothering her so she asked me to give her a hug to crack her back before dinner. I did, but it didn't crack this time. I then told her to sit down and I massaged her back a little to try and loosen it up before I tried to crack it again. This time a cracked a little bit, but she was still in pain (she said it hurt to try and take a deep breath).

We continued to laugh and joke. One time it was sexual, where I poured her a beer and she joked about the amount of foam saying "Hey, I'm suppose to give head, not get it" We had joked sexually a couple of times during the baseball game, where I passed her a twizzler and teased her tongue with it before putting it in her mouth. Then she played with it with her tongue some what.

Another time, when she was complaing about her feet hurting as well, I was massaging her feet and she playfully nestled it in my lap with a smile.

We had gotten done with dinner but we stayed to finish our pitcher of beer. Our boys played on the deck with a couple of other kids from another table (it wasn't very crowded so it worked out well to have room for the kids to play). We continued just chatting away and I talked to her more about my club/bar/resturant idea. She seemed interested and excited about it. This was a topic that was clearly that I was passionate and confident about so hopefully she sensed/saw it as well.

The only slip up I had was when she was talking about having a jazz nite as that was something that she was looking to find (a local jazz club/bar). I offered that we could get her mom to watch the kids as I knew where there was a good one. She quietly declined and I quickly shifted gears to a more upbeat topic.

When it was time to leave, we walked to our cars. I stayed upbeat and positive as I put the boys in my truck as she walked to her car. She came over to the car to give the boys hugs and kisses good bye. Then she asked me to hug her again try and crack her back again. I did and it cracked slightly. I let her go and said "Have a good nite and I hope your back feels better"

I'm not sure if she noticed but the boys didn't cry that she wasn't coming with us nor the fact that they were coming home. I'm sure it bugs her a little bit, particularly from her comment the other nite of knowing that she's going to be viewed as the bad guy by the boys.

No call or text from her tonite, but it really didn't bother me. I wished that she did but it's not eating away at me like it had in the past when she doesn't call/text.

So I think I'm firming up in the friends department and know I can't rush it, but really want to move beyond friends. The fact that she's living in an apartment while I've lost my job is a real drain on our finances.
I think you really need to not see her as often IMHO.

You set yourself up for failure every time you do that. When I was physically separated, we would both go to see our kids at swim class. This was during my time with them. After swimming, my oldest D would beg to see if my W could join us for lunch. Sometimes I agreed, most of the time I told her 'no' because we had other plans (even if we didn't).

I saw my W would look sad during the times that I said that, but I had to do it to set things straight. That if this is what she wanted, this is the way it was going to be. Kids on my time, then I decide if she comes or not. I had to get some kind of control back in my life.

You're the same way. You've got to get your balls out of her court (so to speak) and control the situation. She's going to accuse you of alot of things, but they are empty threats. This is what she wanted. Why should she be the one to control you?

For you, I think you need to physically detach in order to emotionally detach. The less you see her the better. But again, the times that you do see her, make yourself look the best. But you've got to start with the detaching first before you can even begin to really DB.
Hi Confused
It sounds like a great evening. And you handled all of it well. Just keep being this guy and I think you are going to knock it out of the park.
And it is sad the boys had no reaction to her not coming home with them. And it can't be helped....she is the bad guy in this.
Originally Posted By: stuck808
You're the same way. You've got to get your balls out of her court (so to speak) and control the situation. She's going to accuse you of alot of things, but they are empty threats. This is what she wanted. Why should she be the one to control you?

For you, I think you need to physically detach in order to emotionally detach. The less you see her the better. But again, the times that you do see her, make yourself look the best. But you've got to start with the detaching first before you can even begin to really DB.


I must admit that recently, we have seen a lot of each other (Sat breakfast and lunch; Sun lunch throuhg dinner; and Tues dinner and drinks). But we hadn't seen each other since my job loss bomb on the Monday prior. But then again, I guess if you include the text/calls, it does seem like a lot of contact.

I guess one of the silver linings to the job loss is that the child support hearing is now pushed off till mid Dec. The other silver lining is that I'm spending a ton of time with my boys.

The last silver lining is that I'm now spending a lot of my time/energy to looking for a job. I hadn't realized how much time/energy I spent on my wife as looking over my threads, I posts quite frequently during the day (maybe that's why they decided that if they eliminated my position, it wouldn't impact the business). But that's all in the past, can't second guess that now.

So this new focus for me is helping me detach. I do get sad when my boys say/do something that upsets them. But that is part of being a dad, in my mind.

I do think she sees that I'm fine with this job loss bomb. I've been trying to maintain the best CIPA possible, not just when I interact with her, but when I'm with my boys. I do let my vulnerability through when I talk to my friends and close family though. This is a big 180 for me as in the past I never let that side out to anyone. Not even my wife (hence her claim of not knowing who I am after all these years).

Thanks for dropping in and checking in on me again. I'm still thinking about the B'day gift question you had. I'll post something on your thread about that.

Take care
Just some more journaling.

A good of a day as it could be in my situation (WAW and just lost my job).

I spent the day with my boys - I made sure it wasn't just all play time as I had my 7 year old do reading and math and worked with my 3 year old on his letter recognition and sounds.

We did play baseball and then basketball and road bikes (they road, I walked to help my 3 year old).

My wife came over about 1:00 PM as I had a meeting with a recruiter. I made some minor chit chat (asked how her back was and how her day was going, etc) before I left for my meeting. The recruiter was this really hot blond, that was about 20 years younger than me, but it really made it a good meeting. We chatted for about an hour and it didn't sound promising as there weren't alot of positions at my level that she was trying to fill, but she did sound like she would be pretty active working on placing me (she was refered by a relative).

When I got back home, my wife was sleeping on the couch. I walked in and just touched her foot. She said she was really tired. I asked what time she went to bed last nite, she said 9PM. She then started saying how our 7 year old was upset that she didn't stay down in the basement with him as he played video games as she was too tired and wanted to rest in the family room. I thought that it was extremely selfish of her as she only had an hour to spend with the boys and she spent it taking a nap (not that I've never taken a nap while they played the past couple of weeks I've had them - it is draining being a stay at home dad).

She then started talking about how her back was really bothering her this morning, but it was starting to feel better now. Then she asked about my meeting.

I left out that the recruiter was a hot blond but tried to sound upbeat and as optimistic as I could without creating a false impression that it will be a no brainer. While we talked, she did move her foot to touch my hand (I was standing as she was still laying on the recliner sofa). I squeezed her big toe a little and brushed the bottom of her foot just to let her know that I noticed, but tried to minimze how I reacted to it. I then thanked her for coming over to watch the kids. Then she asked me to try and crack her back with a hug before she left. I did.

I walked her to her car and I don't remember exactly how it came up, but she mentioned my comment from a few weeks ago (back then she had said that she didn't trust me as I was acting nice and working with her now, but how will she know how I would be if I meet someone in a couple of weeks. I had joked back then about why would it take a couple of weeks to meet someone). She has brought this comment up a few times now over the last two weeks. I did say that I was just teasing her (probably a mistake to say that as I should have just kept it as mysterious). Part of me is wondering if she's doing that to hint that she has or whether it is really bothering her or what. Anyone with thoughts?

I did say bye and thanked her again as she got into her car. As she drove away, I put on my best positive upbeat face as she waved bye and I waved back.

My 7 year old had come up just as I was hugging my wife, so I'm sure that is going to be confusing for him. And he was with me in the driveway as she waved.

I did have a few calls with possibilities, but I just have to wait and see how those pan out.

I'm still working my bar/resturant idea. My current thinking is that if I find an opportunity that I can develop, it would also facilitate me changing my career to be a teacher. The pay isn't what I'm looking for, but I think it will be much more rewarding/satisfying that what I currently do. I'm hoping that by developing the bar/resturant, it could provide a cushion to make up the difference in money that I was getting. I'm still toying with that, but it's the one I'm most excited about.

The boys did a great job today. It was a lot of fun to spend the day with them. There was a sad moment when we were playing in the basement after bath. We were playing with cars/trucks (they are boys, what do you expect). I noticed that there were only a few cars/trucks out so I asked why don't they get out the other cars/trucks. My 7 year old said that mommy had taken them to her place so we can't.

He was sad about it. He said that he will try to sneak some back in his bookbag since they are small and he knows she doesn't want them to bring toys back. I just told him that we will have fun with what we have, and he doesn't have to do that. If there is something he really wants to bring back, he can, but he shouldn't feel like he had to. He said that he and his brother have a few favorite cars that they had been talking about bringing back so he will just bring those back.

He then said that he wants to keep the special car that I had given him there so he has something to remember me with there.

Then he said that he didn't want to talk about it anymore since he was getting sad. I could see him tearing up and holding back from crying as he didn't want to upset me or his little brother. I just gave him a big hug and told him how much I loved him and how proud I was to have him as my son.

If anything through this ordeal, it is bringing me closer to my boys that I have ever been. That alone is priceless. It really hurts even more as I realize how much I missed as I focused so much on the wrong things (things vs. people). But that is all in the past. While my wife may not believe nor trust that my changes are real, that will be her loss. My boys and the people around me will benefit.

Tomorrow is going to be another day!
I feel for your boys as they struggle with the living arrangements. Good answer about the cars, and they shouldn't feel like they have sneak toys back.

If they don't have a photo of you at your W's place, get a picture or take one now if you with the boys that you can frame and they can put in their other room. It helps at bedtime to have a nice memory & smiling face to ease the sadness. Actually, the reverse is true too.. a photo of them with their mom at your place would be helpful as well.
Originally Posted By: mnt_dreams
I feel for your boys as they struggle with the living arrangements. Good answer about the cars, and they shouldn't feel like they have sneak toys back.

If they don't have a photo of you at your W's place, get a picture or take one now if you with the boys that you can frame and they can put in their other room. It helps at bedtime to have a nice memory & smiling face to ease the sadness. Actually, the reverse is true too.. a photo of them with their mom at your place would be helpful as well.


Thanks mnt_dreams

I haven't taken any pictures down since she left so all our wedding pictures are still up. I actually put a couple more pics of the 4 of us laughing and enjoying ourselves up as well

I don't think there is a picture of us at her place though. I did put a laminated one in his lunch box of us so he always has that with him
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
Just remembered one other point we had a long discussion on. My friends kept harping that I need to draw the line with my wife that we should stop doing things together with the kids. They said that us spending breakfast and lunch together at home on Sat and then lunch and dinner together on Sun while going to a baseball game is going to mess up the kids. They said to them, everytime we are together and then part ways, the kids are seeing us get divorced/separated again each time.

The four of us are suppose to have dinner together on Tuesday (I will take the boys home on Tues nite), rather than her driving out to the house on Weds AM (her suggestion).

When I asked how does that help in getting back together if we never see each other that's when they said that I need to just accept that it's over and let it go.

So, curious on other people's thoughts here.

Do I stop all contact with her so the kids don't get confused or how should I handle these little "family" functions that we get together for?


One mistake that I see a lot of newcomers make is to be so distraught that they get into these conversations with people that supposedly have their best interest at heart. They give far more information to these people than they should.

Then they flap in the wind with every opinion anyone utters.

Look. Keep doing things together. And keep them as positive as possible. Enjoy each other and enjoy the kids. It will be more confusing to only see one parent at a time and never see you together.

The kids would be more frightened, not less, if you don't do things together.

And, stop the deep conversations with these well-meaning friends that have a different opinion than you. Stop baring your soul or listening to their "advice." You can be friendly, but why let them get into your personal business, especially if it will at all affect your mood, feelings, etc?

Also, think in terms of the old R and M are gone. How do new R's start? They start with a friendship. The very best ones, anyhow. So, be friends. Have new experiences. Build new memories. You don't need to verbalize that you are rebuilding, just DO it.

I agree with Wifey.

If your son really wants to take back a toy though from the apt. then just tell your W and let him take it. Kids need something familiar and safe to hold on to while they're parents are going through this.

As for your interaction with your W, you shouldn't have told her you were joking about finding someone. She was obviously fishing to be sure you were still free for her. After all, she doesn't want to give up her security blanket until she's found another.

Don't fall for it. That's why I think the less time you see each other the better.
Originally Posted By: The Wifey
One mistake that I see a lot of newcomers make is to be so distraught that they get into these conversations with people that supposedly have their best interest at heart. They give far more information to these people than they should.

Then they flap in the wind with every opinion anyone utters.

I know I was/am guilty of this mistake. The week before my wife moved out, she even commented how she didn't understand me as I keep swinging all over emotionally and with my attitude. She said one moment I would be dancing and singing in the family room with my boys and the next I be so distant and disconnected.

Right now, I'm trying to stay consistent as a the best CIPA I can be. I remain dark by not calling/initiating any contact with her. When she does call/text/email me, I try to be as upbeat and positive as I can be.

So, I am trying to be a man that only a fool would leave/divorce.

Originally Posted By: The Wifey
Look. Keep doing things together. And keep them as positive as possible. Enjoy each other and enjoy the kids. It will be more confusing to only see one parent at a time and never see you together.

The kids would be more frightened, not less, if you don't do things together.

And, stop the deep conversations with these well-meaning friends that have a different opinion than you. Stop baring your soul or listening to their "advice." You can be friendly, but why let them get into your personal business, especially if it will at all affect your mood, feelings, etc?

Also, think in terms of the old R and M are gone. How do new R's start? They start with a friendship. The very best ones, anyhow. So, be friends. Have new experiences. Build new memories. You don't need to verbalize that you are rebuilding, just DO it.

That's how I've been approaching the time we spend with the kids. Trying to create new positive memories/moments. She has said that she doesn't trust me to be vulnerable with me so she doesn't want to be my wife any more. I do know that it takes time to rebuild the trust. So I will be working towards that until the bitter end (when the divorce is final).

Now the challenge comes down to if I continue after the divorce is final. I guess that will have to depend on where I am at emotionally and in life. I don't want to just be friends with the woman I love. But I will cross that bridge when I get there.

Thanks for checking up on me again
Originally Posted By: stuck808
As for your interaction with your W, you shouldn't have told her you were joking about finding someone. She was obviously fishing to be sure you were still free for her. After all, she doesn't want to give up her security blanket until she's found another.

Don't fall for it. That's why I think the less time you see each other the better.

I know it was a mistake as soon as I said it - that's a big problem I have, speaking before thinking.

The context was really involving not whether I would find someone else, it was more of how I joked why would it take as long as 2 weeks to find someone else. So the part that I said I was joking about was asking why does she think it would take that long.

A subtle nuance, but I do agree with your point. I should have just let it go. I think I read in Sandi's post in another thread, that I need to learn that I don't have to answer every question/comment. This would have been one that was better left without a response.

Lesson learned.

Right now, I'm not expecting to see her again until Sun morning when she picks up the boys. It seems like such a long time to not see her, but at the same time, it seems like I will only have the boys for 2 more days.

I know I have to keep focusing on me and working on me.

This still s*cks though.....
I had the boys today again, so the perk of being unemployed continues of spending so much time with my two boys.

I did wind up calling my wife today as I have a job interview next Tues so we had to work out how we are handling the boys on that day. I told her that I will be staying overnite Mon as the interview was early on Tues and it was over 2 hours away. She just made a comment of who was paying for the hotel (I didn't answer that one).

Then later that evening at 7:30PM, she text me that Michael Jackson died. I wasn't sure if that was her way to prompt me to call her so she could talk to the kids, but I didn't. If she really wanted to talk to the boys she can call or if the boys ask to call, then I would. She really didn't seem that interested in talking with my son yesterday when she came to watch him for a couple of hours when I went to met a recruiter (she wound up taking a nap during that time). I really don't understand her and the way she approaches the kids.

Around 9:30 PM, she sends a text that she found a piece of glass in her foot. I did reply with some concern to ask if she was ok and to find out what happened (I had in the past called, but thought I would mix it up a little). She said she was fine as it was a small piece of glass. I joked back was she dancing on tables again (she knows my prior girlfriend were club girls/strippers so they were very apt to dance on bars and tables when they had a couple of drinks). She just replied back with a "nooooooo" and I let the conversation end like that.

I had thought about calling her to find out what she worked out for my boys Tues, but I had already talked to her mom and she said she wasn't working that day so she was available, and I contacted my son's camp director who said that he can do an extended day that day without any problems so she has plenty of options to choose from.

So at least I have a interview next week. I'm trying to not get my hopes up, but am keeping my fingers crossed.

I sooooooo need something good to happen to get me out of this slump......
Hey Confused.....

The bond with the boys.....amazing. Good for you.
Originally Posted By: almostdonebut...
Hey Confused.....

The bond with the boys.....amazing. Good for you.


Thanks almostsonebut...

They definitely have their moments though. It's not always a love rest though. My 3 year old has been going through the "No" phase. My 7 year has been showing some attitude, not sure if it's related to the situation or just getting to that age or what

I try to be compassionatewhen they are genuinely sad/hurt and firm when I think it's just a fit/attitude. I know I don't get it right all the time. My 7 year does ask when he thinks I'm too much of a "mean daddy" to understand why I was so upset though. It may seem odd but it really seems to help him and I understand each other.

Last nite, for example, I hollared to have him come back to flush the toilet (an issue I've been working with him on). He came up and seemed unusually upset. He asked afterwards if I hollared loud because I was mad or if it was so he could hear me. I told he I thought he had gone down to play in the basement so I wanted to make sure he could hear me since I was in the second floor. Be seemed better after that

This morning when he got up I noticed he was sad. He said he had a bad dream that we had to sell the house already. I just gave him a hug And told him that daddy will do all that he can but we will always have a place for us. It may be a different place but we will always love each other.

During breakfast, when we were taking about what we were going do today, my 3 year old said that it doesn't matter what mommy took from us, we will still have fun with whatever we have.

They are great kids and can try my patience at times but I love them.
Stuck has been giving you excellent advice! I'm kind of proud of him since I feel like I helped raise him... grin (Just kidding, Stuck)

Quote:
I don't want to just be friends with the woman I love. But I will cross that bridge when I get there.


When you said this, it reminded me of my H telling me that he had no intentions of being "friends".....if I left him. It shocked me and it hurt. I think it was a reality check I needed. Oh, I fantasized about life with the OM, but it was only a dream. I think I knew all the time that it could never work out between me and OM.....but I stubbornly held on to the fantasy.

I see your wife having way too much contact with you to be all that serious about D you. She "finds" excuses to contact you. All that business with her feet and her back.......bologna! Oh, she may have pain.....but it's funny she turns to you to help her out. I can tell you that when I was an almost WAW....there was no way I wanted my H to touch my feet, my back,..or anywhere else! I did not want to be anywhere around him, or even hear his voice. That is how women are if they really are fed up with their H's and are serious about leaving. I know she's left you, but something is not right about this. She wants to be around you too much for me to believe she truly wants a D. She can find "friends" in other people....right? So, why is she there so much and why is she calling and TM so much? Maybe you don't see much possibility....but I do. I think she needed to see some changes in you and that she needs to get some issues in her head straighten out. I believe the silver lining is growing, so don't give up.

Take care,
Sandi
I don't know why I even bother sometimes as it puts puts such emotional stress on the boys (namely my 7 year old).

It was bugging me that my wife hadn't talked to the boys in a while (I had them since Tues nite) so I decided to have them call her tonite to say goodnite. She had said in the past that the parent with the kids should be the one to call the other to say goodnite. She had done that most of the time when she had the kids and when she doesn't call by their bed time, I call to say goodnite. I told her that she is always welcome to call, but when I had asked the boys if they want to call her, they often say no as it hurts them when she doesn't answer.

So, since she hadn't talked to the kids in a couple of days, I told my boys we're going to call mommy to say goodnite tonite. They noticed it wasn't a request so they came to the speaker phone as it rang. It killed me when I saw the look on my boys face when they heard it went to voice mail. I just told them both to say goodnite, which they did and I hung up.

My 7 year old held back his tears while my 3 year old kept asking "What happened? Why didn't she answer? She'll call back tonite so its ok". My 7 year old told my 3 year old "No, this was her choice." My 3 year old asked "To not answer?" My 7 year old responded "No. Leaving" It really hurt me to hear that exchange.

I gave them both hugs and kisses and said that they did a great job leaving a message as we got ready to read books before bed time.

Needless to say, she never called back tonite. Both of the boys just went to bed. I knew it was really bugging my 7 year old.

I really don't know why I am fighting for this as she seems so checked out of this marriage.

I know I need to keep fighting for my boys and I do want us back together.

This really s*cks!
Hey man, as long as you want it then you shouldn't give up. No matter what happens at least you will no that you did all that you could and you will have no regrets. Also, the kids are watching and see what you both are doing. They see that you are doing all that you can. She is going to live to regret her decisions.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Stuck has been giving you excellent advice! I'm kind of proud of him since I feel like I helped raise him... grin (Just kidding, Stuck)


Sandi - you have definitely done a nice job raising him ;-)

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I don't want to just be friends with the woman I love. But I will cross that bridge when I get there.


When you said this, it reminded me of my H telling me that he had no intentions of being "friends".....if I left him. It shocked me and it hurt. I think it was a reality check I needed. Oh, I fantasized about life with the OM, but it was only a dream. I think I knew all the time that it could never work out between me and OM.....but I stubbornly held on to the fantasy.


I had actually told her that when, about six weeks before she moved out, she started going on about how she will always be looking for a reason to change her mind and that even divorced people can get back together and remarried. I cut her off at that point and told her that if we get divorced, that we will not even be friends as I can't be friends with the woman I love and not be able to show her.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I see your wife having way too much contact with you to be all that serious about D you. She "finds" excuses to contact you. All that business with her feet and her back.......bologna! Oh, she may have pain.....but it's funny she turns to you to help her out. I can tell you that when I was an almost WAW....there was no way I wanted my H to touch my feet, my back,..or anywhere else! I did not want to be anywhere around him, or even hear his voice. That is how women are if they really are fed up with their H's and are serious about leaving. I know she's left you, but something is not right about this. She wants to be around you too much for me to believe she truly wants a D.


I really seems to come in spurts where we spend a lot of time together and then it almost seems like she has gotten her "taste/hit" and then retreats. I'm really not sure what is going on with her, other than she is trying to set things up so we will be best friends post divorce. Others have said that she is stringing me along to keep me as back up until she finds someone new.

Either way, I do take the opportunity for when we are together to show her the best CIPA I can be, but at the same time show her that I don't need her. I want her but know that I will be fine without her. A very subtle difference but very important distinction. If she does wind up leaving, it will be her loss. I know that I will be fine. It will also be a loss for my boys, but I will do everything I can to minimize their loss.


Originally Posted By: sandi2
She can find "friends" in other people....right? So, why is she there so much and why is she calling and TM so much? Maybe you don't see much possibility....but I do. I think she needed to see some changes in you and that she needs to get some issues in her head straighten out. I believe the silver lining is growing, so don't give up.

Take care,
Sandi


Thanks for the encouraging outlook. I was really bumming tonite, not because of me, but because of my boys. Your post really helped lift my spirits some. I know that the only thing I can control are my changes. The rest (seeing them and getting some issues in her head straightened out) is up to her, I can't control that.

I'm not giving up. I'm continuing to work on what I can control and making sure that my future as long as my boys will be great.

Thanks again for checking in on me.

Take care
Originally Posted By: wolverine1997
Hey man, as long as you want it then you shouldn't give up. No matter what happens at least you will no that you did all that you could and you will have no regrets. Also, the kids are watching and see what you both are doing. They see that you are doing all that you can. She is going to live to regret her decisions.


Thanks Wolverine1997.

The boys are the a big reason why I keep going. I kills me when I see them hurting. This is suppose to be the BEST time of their lives, but instead, it is a very painful time for them. My wife had even said that she knows that she's going look like the bad guy to them as she is the one who left. She had gone on about how they won't understand right now all the "pain" that she had to endure in the past. I had told her that it was the past and I've learned from it and know that I, along with the boys, will have a better life because of it. It's up to her to decide if she wants to be part of that.

I do know if it does go the wrong way in this situation, I will have no problem looking my boys in the eye and telling them that I had done everything that I could to keep our family together.

Thanks for dropping by and offering your support and ecouragement. It has been a rough nite, but I should be used to that by now.....
Hey, we gotta help each other. So many of you guys have offered me encouragement. The kids are a great inspiration. Mine help me a lot, they just don't know it. And yes, your wife is going to look like the bad guy but that just shows where her head is right now. What is it about the past that scrambles some wives minds? Mine says the same thing about the past even though I don't know how I have made her past so terrible. Why would you allow your past to define your future? But hang in there, if she sees that you have truly made changes her attitude and thinking may change.
Your W may be keeping you in "storage" (so to speak) in case this other life she's pursuing doesn't work out for her. Doesn't make you feel better to think that, but maybe it's better than her having a lot of hatred like most WAW's have toward their LBH.

I am still very concerned about your boys. I want to encourage you to be extremely careful in the answers you give to their questions. Let me show you an example of how your 7 yr. old is quoting you:

Quote:
My 7 year old told my 3 year old "No, this was her choice."


Now, I realize there are a lot of sharp little kids out there these days, but that sounds too much like what he's heard daddy say about mommy. In fact, I'm almost certain that you posted where you've told the boys that it was her choice if she did or didn't do something.

You see, in your own personal pain, it is very difficult not to show your anger or hurt in your explanations to the kids' questions. I know b/c I have done the same thing when mine were little and propably the majority of parents have. However, being as smart as they are.....it hits them in a very deep place that leaves scars and I know that no matter what your W does to you that you don't want the boys to suffer.

I tell you what I would do if I were in your place and saw the reaction that my children had when they were not able to talk to their other parent on the phone. If they seem to be more devasted and feel "rejected" by her when she isn't home to talk to them.....if that seems worse than "not" phoning....then I would tell her that she can call when she's available to talk to them b/c you are not going to watch them go to bed with their hearts broken. It is not fair to them.

I think somewhere deep down in your soul, you are still wanting to make that contact with her but the boys are your shield to the real reason for calling. Maybe you try to cover up your own emotions when you hear that voice mail come on the phone, but the kids may be able to read your face.....and we both know that's not good for them. You cannot make her be a good mother and be home to call the kids. Does she not have a cell phone? You see, this is your way of finding out she's not home and it upsets you. Right? You can deny it, but I know it is true. Sometimes people are blind to their own actions, so I'm just trying to point out a possibility.

I may have knocked the props out that I built up last night. I hope not, b/c I only want you to learn from this so that you can be more objective in the future. Pain clouds our judgment as parents, S's, friends, ....in every way we are a person! It often times takes somebody who is detached from the problem to see.

Hope you have a good weekend and hope your stitch gets better real soon.

Take care,
Sandi


Originally Posted By: sandi2
Your W may be keeping you in "storage" (so to speak) in case this other life she's pursuing doesn't work out for her. Doesn't make you feel better to think that, but maybe it's better than her having a lot of hatred like most WAW's have toward their LBH.


Sandi,

I really don't know what would be better, her being like the typical WAW that's full of anger/hatred or the roller coaster that my wife is putting me through. I really don't know what this other life is that she's pursuing, but the last time she came over to watch our kids when I went to talk to a recruiter, she had brought over some self help book talking about the secret to the finding success and happiness in life. I forget the name of the book, but thought it was odd.

Her favorite book is actually "The Secret" which talks about something similiar (in fact she mentioned that I should read it she thinks it would help me). She had said that she wanted to share it with me in the past but knew I wouldn't be receptive to it. She thinks that I'm of a different mindset know and may actually appreciate it. Not sure if that's her way of saying that she see's that I've changed or what....

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I am still very concerned about your boys. I want to encourage you to be extremely careful in the answers you give to their questions. Let me show you an example of how your 7 yr. old is quoting you:

Quote:
My 7 year old told my 3 year old "No, this was her choice."


Now, I realize there are a lot of sharp little kids out there these days, but that sounds too much like what he's heard daddy say about mommy. In fact, I'm almost certain that you posted where you've told the boys that it was her choice if she did or didn't do something.


I know I do have to be careful of what I say and how I say it. I know I've made mistakes in the past that you've pointed out to me. Right now, when they bring things up about her, I try to change the topic or say that it's an adult thing that mommy and daddy are working out.

Ever since my cousin, who's parent are divorced, told me that her greatest pain growing up was being scared for her parents. She was scared how her mom was going to make it as well as her dad (who was a bum who never worked).

So I'm much more sensitive to my boys feeling scared or sad, either for themselves or for me. I'm trying to be the rock for them as I should be. It is hard sometimes as I do catch myself tearing up occassionally when I see them so happy and full of life. They are the ones who are paying the greatest price and will bear the greatest burden in this ordeal. I know I need to be sure that I do not add to it.

Thanks for the 2x4 in reminding me of that.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I tell you what I would do if I were in your place and saw the reaction that my children had when they were not able to talk to their other parent on the phone. If they seem to be more devasted and feel "rejected" by her when she isn't home to talk to them.....if that seems worse than "not" phoning....then I would tell her that she can call when she's available to talk to them b/c you are not going to watch them go to bed with their hearts broken. It is not fair to them.


That's a good suggestion, I will talk to her about that the next time an opportunity presents itself.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I think somewhere deep down in your soul, you are still wanting to make that contact with her but the boys are your shield to the real reason for calling. Maybe you try to cover up your own emotions when you hear that voice mail come on the phone, but the kids may be able to read your face.....and we both know that's not good for them. You cannot make her be a good mother and be home to call the kids. Does she not have a cell phone? You see, this is your way of finding out she's not home and it upsets you. Right? You can deny it, but I know it is true. Sometimes people are blind to their own actions, so I'm just trying to point out a possibility.


Whether I call her cell or her apt phone, I would know whether she is out or not. I don't even talk to her when the kids call to say goodnite. I just do the dialing for them and my boys know how to hang up the phone when it's done.

Pearsonally, I don't want to know whether she is home or not. I thinks that's one of the reasons why I am so reluctant to call her (which is why it is easy for me to maintain dark of not initiating any contact). Mentally and I'm working on the emotional piece of it, she has filed for divorce and left me. As Wifey pointed out, the old relationship and marriage is gone, there is nothing left. All I can do is try to develop a new relationship with her so she will see a CIPA that only a fool will leave.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
I may have knocked the props out that I built up last night. I hope not, b/c I only want you to learn from this so that you can be more objective in the future. Pain clouds our judgment as parents, S's, friends, ....in every way we are a person! It often times takes somebody who is detached from the problem to see.


Sandi - I hope you realize by now that nothing that you "say" will ever take away any respect that I have for what you offer. I know it true act of kindness and compassion to "tell it like it is" even if it may be painful, but it is for my own good. I know that I'm not the most emotionally intelligent person in the world (remember I am a DAM) so I appreciate you taking the time to offer your thoughts and support.

I hope your continue to feel better and stay healthy.

Thank you
It was a good Sat with the boys.

I woke up a little down as all I could think about was that my wife was going to take the boys tomorrow so it will be 3 more days before I see them again. I shook it off as I didn't want that to get me down for my day with the boys.

We had breakfast and went to the park to play. It poured last nite so my 3 year old was disappointed that the baseball field was too muddy to play, but he didn't fuss. We all had a good time as they played on the climber and road their bikes.

When we got back for lunch, my wife called. She started saying how she was really not feeling well as her stomach was bothering her all nite. She said that she threw up five times last nite and hadn't been able to keep anything down. I teased her by saying it sounded like a really bad hangover. She said she wished it was that but she thinks it's a stomach bug. She went on and on about how awful she felt.

I listened and tried to be supportive/compassionate as I asked if there was anything that she needed or wanted (i.e. Ginger Ale). She thanked me for the offer but said that she thinks she's got everything. Then after a few more minutes of her going on and on of how awful she felt, when she paused to catch her breath, I asked if she wanted to talk to the boys. The boys heard me say that as I saw their eyes open wide after I said it. She didn't answer and just kept going on. After several more minutes, I could see my boys getting anxious as they thought that she didn't want to talk to them.

So I said told her that the boys wanted to talk to her and asked if she was feeling ok to do that. She said yes. The boys went on about how much fun they had and all the goings on over the past couple of days. Then she went on with them about how awful she felt. The boys said that they hoped she felt better and then hung up.

I did send her a text with a "get well hug" in it (I know many will say that it's pursuing, but I would have done the same if it was a friend that called saying she wasn't feeling well). I was surprised when she sent me back a text saying thank you. In the past, when I sent her an email/text reply that had some "affection/pursuing" in it, she didn't reply.

Around 8PM she sent me a text saying how horrible she still felt and had just tried to eat some rice (first thing all day). I had thought about calling her to see how she was doing, but decided to wait as it didn't seem like a question.

Around 10PM, I sent her a text saying that it sounded like she had a rough day and hope she felt better tomorrow. She text me back right away and as I was reading it, she called me. She went on and on about how aweful she felt today and how she couldn't do anything. She was starting to feel a little better but just enough to stand for a couple of minutes at a time.

Then she abruptly said that she had to call me right back.

When she called back, I asked if everything was ok. She told me her friend who's brother (42) was dying, had text her to let her know he had died today. She went on about how sad it was and how it really makes you think about things. I told her that it is amazing how many twists life throws at people. In the back of my mind though, I was wondering who this guy was that, on the day his brother died, while with his mother, texts her to let her know that he passed away. She kept talking about it and I got that the guy is married and is in his upper 40's and also talks to one of her girlfriends about his brother.

Anyway, she got back to how she was feeling and then started talking about just other stuff (i.e. work and a few shows that she watched today, etc.). After about 15 minutes, when I sensed the conversation was slowing, I ended the call by saying I hope she felt better and we could talk to tomorrow to see if she needed anything.

I do hope that she will want me to keep the kids another day. My boys had asked about that tonite after bath time - saying that if mommy wasn't feeling well, maybe we could get a bonus day together. I told them that we would have to see, but if that's what they wanted, they could always ask.

So another week goes by since my wife filed for divorce and moved out and I've lost my job.

I really need something good to come my way.....
Hummmmm......is this something she use to do when she got sick? Would she lean on you to comfort her or "wait" on her to help her get better? Did you feel she was "over doing" it by constantly going on about how bad she felt?

Glad you are having a great time with your boys. You are doing a wonderful job in giving of yourself to them while in this bad stitch and they will remember when they get older and it will cause a strong bond between you and your sons.

Talk later,
Sandi
Sandi

I think in the past she had tried to and I would be supportive and caring and attentive until the last couple of years. That's when I see that I had felt that I neglected her by treating how she felt as an annoyance or inconvience. There I see how she felt neglected as she was bit feeling well fairly frequently as that's what happens with her when she is stressed

I would still help her but would do it reluctantly or would look annoyed. I would bring her things (ie tea or medicine) but wouldn't spend the time to just hold her like I used to.

I know that was horrible of what I did but I'm trying to be truthful I myself as I reflect on what I did
It was a crappy start to the morning. She text me to say her stomach wasvstill hurting but had stopped vomiting. I called to see how she was doing. She sounded crappy as she just woke up. I asked if there was anything that I could do to help. She said her mom was coming over to visit with the boys as she hadn't seen them in a while. I tried not to sound disappointed as I wanted to spend another day with then but I know she sensed it

When she came over, she looked bad. I gave her a hug to comfort her which she leaned in for. We chatted about how she felt as the kids played. She said she was hungry since she didn't eat anything yesterday. She said she lost 4 lbs since Friday. I asked if she wanted to go to a breakfast place that we both liked. She said ok but when she asked the boys, the 7 year old said he didn't want to go. I tried to ask him but he still said no.

It was a real bummer as my 3 year old was excited about going

So I told her that I guess they should get going then as I knew she was hungry

I gave the boys hugs and kisses in her car and told them I would talk to them tonite and see them soon

As they drove away , my boys yelled I love you out the window. I tried to keep an upbeat smile on my face as my wife waves bye as well

Then I went to church. It's going to be a busy day today as I hadn't had time to run errands since I had the boys so much

It was a dissappointing start but I will make this a goods day
Does the 7 year old usually make the final decisions for the family?
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Does the 7 year old usually make the final decisions for the family?


Not on "my watch" but she generally differs to him when I wasn't around, even before she filed for divorce. In the past I would have just told him that we were going but since it's her day with the kids I let her decide how to handle it. I didn't want to make her feel like I forced her/them to go

This is part of who she is, she doesn't really press for what she wants, except for leaving and divorcing

A really crappy time for her to choose to stand her ground
It was a good of a day as it could have been for me in my situation.

After church, I did some shopping to replenish consumables (i.e. cereal, tissues, soap, etc.). Then I changed the oil on my truck and mowed the grass. After I also did some laundry.

At 2PM, she sent me a text with a picture of my 3 year old playing dress up as Bob the Builder I had gotten done with the yard work so I sent her a reply (about 25 minutes later) thanking her for the picture and asking her how she felt.

She replied back about 2 hours later that she was tired, but her stomach was feeling better so she thinks she can finally eat a normal meal for dinner. Then she asked how I was and what I did today.

I replied back with a very positive and upbeat message of how it was a beautiful day today and I hoped that she was able to enjoy it and at that moment I was thinking about what to do for dinner.

She told me that she didn't feel good enough to be outside with the boys (I thought big bummer for the boys to be cooped up in an apartment on a day like today) but had the windows open since it was so breezy out. She told me my 7 year old was playing on the computer and my 3 year old was working on building the fire truck project. Then she said that they were thinking about getting pizza for dinner

I got a little annoyed with that as last weekend, my 3 year old asked her if he could bring it home so he could build it with me. She had said yes although several weeks ago, when he had asked, she said no. I thought she was easing up a bit, but now I feel that she never was going to let him bring it home. It's pretty much true to form, that she never lets them bring anything back.

It was ironic as this morning when she picked them up, the boys asked if they could take a couple of things with them. I told them of course so they did.

Anyway, I replied back saying it was too bad she didn't feel up to getting ouside as it was really nice out as I was reading a newspaper out on the patio and relaxing with a beer. I then said that pizza sounded like a good idea for me as well as it always goes good with beer. I also asked for her to send me pictures of the boys building the firetruck project (which she did).

She called me about 45 minutes later with a tactical question and then told me about how much pizza they had left over. I told her that I still hadn't decided on dinner yet (it was almost 7PM) so I should get going on that before it got too late. She asked if I wanted to go over to pick some up as she had so much left over. I said sure.

I went over and picked it up. My 3 year old showed me the fire truck that he had built and my 7 year old just gave me a big hug and kiss. I chatted with them at the door for a bit before I left. I said good nite and told them that they can call me again to say goodnite if they wanted to (which would have been in about 25 minutes). My 3 year old said he wanted to. When I left, I heard my 3 year old calling to say he wanted to come home with me. It really made me sad.

So I got home and ate the pizza while I talked on the phone with some of my relatives. They didn't call to say good nite and I was tempted to call, but figure that I did see them just 25 minutes ago so I didn't call either.

So right now, I'm not sure if it's the 4 beers I've had or what, but I'm feelign ok. I'm a little down, but I'm not a wreck like I was on Father's day.....
Sure is a lot of contact from a woman who claims she wants a D from you, isn't it? Glad you had a good day.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Sure is a lot of contact from a woman who claims she wants a D from you, isn't it? Glad you had a good day.

Sandi,

I agree. It does seem a little conflicting as she is the who filed for divorce on Jan 9th and seems hell bent on proceedign with a divorce. That's the part that I really don't get. As you mentioned in one of your earlier posts, she doesn't seem to be full of hatred/anger like the typical WAW. Maybe you are right that she's keeping me on deck in case she needs something to fall back on.

One of the things that came up today was how I had an interview for a job about 2.5 hours away. I told her that it's just an interview but before I decide anything we will talk about it. I know that was one of her issues in the past, I would change jobs for more money or promotion and wouldn't really consult her. I would pretty much come home and tell her that I was starting a new job in 2 weeks. I know that was wrong of me and it made her feel unimportant and not part of the decision making process as these decision does affect all of us.

But we will cross that bridge if/when we get there.....

Thanks for stopping by again. Hope you are feeling well still.
I know I'm going to get 2x4's with this one, but remember, I am a DAM.

My wife called tonite about 45 minutes after the kids normally go to bed. We talked for about an hour.

It started with some tactical stuff about our 7 year old's first week of camp. Then she asked about the custody agreement that her lawyer sent me a couple of weeks ago.

I told her that I hadn't had a chance to really look at it, but remember that the first right of refusal wasn't in there so I asked if that was a problem for her. She said no. Then she asked if there was anything else wrong with it. I told her that I really hadn't looked at it. Then she started get frustrated and yelling about why didn't I look at it yet or tell her that there was a problem.

I told her that I got it the day I lost my job so she really expect me to look at it back then? She said no.

Then I told her that right now, we've been working together with the kids and until I know what my job situation is, I really can't say for sure what type of custody agreement will work. Nevertheless, I wanted to get my lawyer friend to look at it before I signed anything

Then she started getting upset about how she hadn't been able to get anywhere with the the divorce and saying that she needed me to go over the document so she can make some progress.

I stopped her and said that she has already made the biggest progress in the divorce already, she had moved out and left me and that had really hurt all of us. Right now, the only thing missing from the divorce is the legal status and that is on a clearly defined time line in 18 months.

I then told her that I don't know what else she really wants as right now she has done everything that she has wanted. She moved out and we have joint custody of the kids. If that's not making her happy, then she really has to think about that.

She then started to cry and went on about how she sees how much I've changed and how we can be such good friends as I'm someone special in her life, but she just can't see being married to me anymore.

I cut her off saying that a divorce is not what I want but I can't see being friends with the woman I love and not being able to show her that. She said that a divorce isn't what she wanted in life, but she does see being married to me as a good choice either. She just wants to end the chapter of us being married to stop her hurt.

I told her that if that's how she chooses to feel, then there is nothing I say that will convince her, just as nothing she says or do can really change how I choose to feel. Right now, I still feel towards her like I had back when I first fell in love with her (we talked about the first time we said I love you to each other).

She continued to cry as she said that she feels that most of our married life together we were like really good roommates but that I didn't make her feel special or important to me. She said that it was over the last couple of years she had really reached her limit that she couldn't stand it anymore.

That's when I slipped into some real pursuing behavior, I told her that she was always special and important to me. I may not have shown her the way she wanted to and it hurt her but I've appologized for all that already and am learning from it. I reminded her that I'm just a DAM and can't read minds, but have really spent a lot of time looking back to understand what I need to do differently. I am using that to make me a better person for me and the boys. Even with all the hurt, I still want her to be part of that life.

I've been trying to give her the time and space that she had asked for to heal her hurt and if there was anything that she needed to help her heal, to let me know.

I then went on talking about several special moments in our lives where I had really felt connected with her. She kept crying and sobbing. One of the times we talked about was the nite I proposed to her. She had stopped wearing her rings about 3 years ago because they got too big to fit on her fingers after our second son was born. She wore some fake silver ones in place of them. I asked her that if she had some time, to try to put them back on just to see how they feel and just let me know.

I then went on about how we can spend the next 18 months in limbo or we could spend it seeing what kind of relationship we could develop. She said that she doesn't want to give me any false hope.

I told her that it's not about hope, but more of giving us a chance. I said that it will take time for us to truly know where this path will lead us. All relationships/marriages take work by both people. I know I can't make her try but we won't know until we both try. That's not just us spending one on one time together occassionally, but by her moving back home so we can really try together.

So the spending the time together can be time where we can see if each of us are someone we want to try with.

She had still been crying that entire time so I told her that it was getting really late so I don't want her to be too tired in the morning nor get her stomach upset again so I said good nite and I told her that I still love her.

She just kept crying and sneaked out a good nite as she hung up.

OK,so let the 2x4's fly.....
Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
That's when I slipped into some real pursuing behavior


Oh, man, do I understand.

Originally Posted By: confusedinpa
OK,so let the 2x4's fly.....


Right now, my 2x4 is just a splintered nub from whackin' myself over the head with it so much...

You're human, you're in pain, you love...

You learn.
A pretty busy day. My wife dropped off my 7 year old at home at 8 am as him camp doesn't start till 9 am. She didn't say too much as she seemed to be in a hurry to get to work. I did enjoy spending a little one on one time with him unil I had to take him to camp. It was nice out so we took the IROC convertible as a treat

I spent most of the day paying bills and getting ready to leave for my overnite trip for a interview Tues am (it's about 3 hours away)

I did get a call from a headhunter for a position 4.5 hours away too. Guess we'll cross that bridge if I have to

My wife did send me a number of emails about tactical stuff.

I picked up my 7 year old from camp and he had a blast there. It was great to see him so excited. When my wife showed up with our 3 year old to pick him up. It was a real surprise to see him as well. He was excited as well.

I got a little down when my 7 year old asked my wife about staying at home with daddy tonite. My wife said not tonite as I had to go on a trip tonite.

They were both sad - 7 year old got ready eyed and my 3 year old grabbed my leg and wouldn't let to as he cried. I gave them both a hug as I told them that I love them both and wished they could have stayed as well. I said that I will see them on Weds and will talk to them tonite before they went to bed

My wife called me about 15 minutes before she normally would for the kids to say goodnite. She had some tactical stuff to go over but then started chit chattin about her day. It seemed like a very friendly conversation. Then she put the boy on to say goodnite. She got back onto the phone afterwards and made some comment about how far this place was and how long I have been driving. I told her what I said yesterday that we would have to talk about it I'd anything came out of the interview (I didn't tell her about the other call that was even further). She asked me to text/call her when I got there, which I did

I had a late dinner (9:30 pm) when she text me a couple of tactical things. I wound up calling her as one of her text didn't make any sense.

It was a good call where we joked and chatted about general stuff. We talked about 45 minutes before I said that I had I finish dinner as it was late and I wanted go get a better nite sleep than last nite

She asked if it was because if our call last nite. I just said it was either that or I was jus anxious od going on the interview I had this week. She said that there is a lot going on right now. I just acknowledged and validated

Then she asks if I wanted to so dinner on Weds like we had last week on Tues. I told her the sounded good. I decided to end the call on a positive note so I said it was getting late so have a goodnite

So right now I'm taking a break from prepping foe my interview to catch up on journalling. I need to stay focused on the job opportunity for the next 16 hours (there are 7 hours of interviews scheduled). I'm going to stay positive an think good thoughts as I really need something to start going my way
Just more journaling. Not much to post about the situation.

My wife did send me a text early in the morning "Have a good one!" I replied back with "You too!".

It was a very hectic interview schedule. it started at 9;30 AM and did end till after 4:00 PM. Could really read how it went, but I am concerned that I will have to relocate to about 3 hours away. Guess we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

It was a really long drive back. Ran into a ton of traffic as the heavy rains we got flooded out the highway with mud (VERY unusual). I actually got off the highway to take a break and grab some dinner. It took me almost 4.5 hours to get home.

My wife called me around the boys bedtime when I was 2 minutes from home so I told her that I would just call them back.

I did and chatted with the boys to say goodnite. They were both excited to be coming home tomorrow.

My wife got on the phone after the boys got off and asked how was my drive. I started to tell her but heard our 3 year old was acting up. Since it was after their bedtime, I said "Sounds like you have a lot going on so I'll let you go. Have a goodnite and I'll talk to you later"

I expected her to call tonite, but she didn't. I'm not upset about it to a devestated point, but just a little disappointed.

So a pretty light journaling day with respect to my situation....
It's a good news bad news type of scenario. Looks like I'm going to get an offer for the place that's 185 miles away. It's an attractive offer as it's about a 10% increase from what u was making before.

Problem is how will I see my boys and continue to DR/DB. Or do I just give up working on the relationship and only see my boys every other weekend?

This is a TOUGH decision

Anyone run into this situation before?
Posted By: CABBR Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 07/01/09 04:01 PM
CIP,

Your post seems a little unclear. Are you saying that you've received a job offer 185 miles away representing a 10% increase over your current salary?

If yes, then what is more important to you?

a. 10% more money, which you'll burn in commuting costs and other expenses and if you end up splitting with your W a lot more.

b. Your relationship with your boys.

This isn't even difficult. I'll tell you why. I just had the exact same scenario, but I gave up a job that was going to pay me 22% more in base salary and a lot more in stock and bonus. I declined the offer because I felt I needed to be around my boys as much as possible with my M seemingly headed to D.
The problem is I lost my job 2 weeks ago and just recieved this offer. There are not a lot of positions near my location ( I was the VP of Operations for a 100 million dollar global company). There are only a couple of dozen companies on this area with that profile.

I haven't gotten any response locally and am worried that if I don't take this I won't find something for a while. My severance package will cover me till the end of the year and my savings another 6 months after that. So that's almost a year but will drain everything I have with no guarantee that I will get another offer locally before then.

Question is how do I DB/DR in that scenario, where I'm 185 miles away and only seeing the boys every other weekend?
Posted By: Coach Re: WAW - Very confused and devastated - pt 10 - 07/01/09 04:48 PM
CIPA, Make sure you talk to your attorney about how this can effect you. Maybe you wouldn't be the one to give up custody. This also can be a good thing for you to get your wife to really talk and work on things. Pray for wisdom and good counsel. You can handle it.
Coach
Thanks coach


The thought had crossed my mind to try to get custody by didn't think that would be the bear for the boys. This is the area they have known their loves and my wife's mom and family are nearby. Where I'm going I will be alone ( I don't have any relatives or friends nearby)

I clearly need to talk to my wife. We have a family dinner planned tonite (her suggestion), not sure if that's the best time to bring it up. I think i'll wait till have have the written offer in hand

Thanks doe your support
The dinner we had tonite went as well as it can be. The kids got in a little bit of trouble as they made a mess out of themselves playing around.

I was in a very upbeat positive mood as, even though it's a good news/bad news scenario, I was glad to get a job offer.

I was very positive but had noticed that something was bothering my wife. Wasn't quite sure of what it was but then she opened up at the end of dinner. She had been reading more of the Science of Success book last nite and it had gotten her down. And her friend's brother's funeral was today. So it was just a downer of a day.

She called me later after I got home with the boys. She told me some tactical stuff, but then started asking abut how the job thing went. Unfortunately, the 3 year old needed some help so I told her that I would try and talk to her later after the boys went to bed.

I called her after they went to bed and she started complaining about her mom then she said how she and her sister had a conversation the other nite talking about her sister's divorce (6 years ago).

Then it turned into a relationship talk that lasted about an hour. She started going on about the "connection" that a husband and wife should have that we don't. I went down the route of the connection doesn't just happen, it needs to be worked on.

She tried the history of hurt route but I stopped her with the I appologized for that already and have learned from it.

Then she went into how she's too afraid to be vulnerable at the risk of getting hurt again to try and create the connection.

So it goes full circle again on the relationship conversation.

This time, I told her that that's something that she needs to work on and think about for herself. As that's a choice that she is making. Right now she feels that way, but feelings do change.

So it was getting late, but I ended the call.

Not a good conversation.

So, how should I respond to "afraid to be vulnerable at the risk of getting hurt again?"

ARGHHHHHHH!!!

This is crappy....
CIPA,

You respond by not responding. Seriously, you really do talk too much to her still.

Stop with all the useless chit chat already.
I know I have to stop talking to her, but it is hard when we are trading off with kids and my job situation.

I had started out the call with the intent that we talk about the job that I had just interviewed for (I didn't tell her I got an offer). I told her that they want me back up there next Thurs to look at one of the other plants as well as review their financial performance and latest strategic goal planning session. So she knows it sounds pretty serious as I told her that we are meeting because I have questions.

We got into the relationship talk because of how she had a conversation with her sister about her divorce 6 years ago. She said that they had talked about her sister's situation and how it relatest to her.

That's when it wound up full circle into the relationship discussion.

I really don't want to give up on her. I definititely don't want to give up on the kids either. I know many people will say it's not the quantity of time you spend with the kids, but it's the quality. Plenty of kids are growing up seeing their dad every other weekend. I know that they will survive, but is that really the best......

It is tough.
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So, how should I respond to "afraid to be vulnerable at the risk of getting hurt again?"


The very same way you responded to the "history route". Look, she has been over and over this same old thing and she will continue to do it as long as you put up with her yacking. Stop her and tell her that everything in life has a "risk factor" and that nobody gets off scott free. We all take chances of getting hurt if we are going to have "people" in our life. It sounds as if she's wanting to pull you into a further conversation of persuading her to go back to you. It's an old female ploy with men. Don't know how to explain it to a DAM..... cry

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I had just interviewed for (I didn't tell her I got an offer


Don't really want to get into the "whys" of you not being completely open and honest with her regarding your job offer, but I would say that if you've been this way about things in the past.....that is a habit you need to break. It causes "trust" issues in a R. You may not have seen what you said....or "how" you said it as being a lie....but it wasn't completely "right" either b/c you withheld all the truth as it was. You are S in the M, so you did not have to tell her everything at this time, but be careful in the future about how you word things, okay?

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That's when it wound up full circle into the relationship discussion.


Yep, it will happen every time b/c she is going to play this same old song each time she can pull you into the R talk. Just refuse to go there with her. When she starts this same old routine....stop her right then and there. Tell her you are not going to discuss it b/c it does not solve anything and does not appear to change anything by dragging it up over and over again. If you have to interrupt her and just tell her you are saying good-bye now......do it. May sound a little rude, but she needs to be broken from this behavior.

Quote:
I really don't want to give up on her. I definititely don't want to give up on the kids either. I know many people will say it's not the quantity of time you spend with the kids, but it's the quality. Plenty of kids are growing up seeing their dad every other weekend. I know that they will survive, but is that really the best......


DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING HERE? YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVINCE YOURSELF THAT MOVING AWAY FROM YOUR WIFE AND CHILDREN WILL BE OKAY! IT ISN'T! THE JOB IS NOT WORTH YOUR FAMILY.

You are so concerned about a "job" until you are putting it before your very own family. Don't do it. You will regret it. How can you "give up" on your boys? You are trying to make yourself believ they will survive and be fine. Survive? But how well will they survive? Survive does not sound good to me. The truth is that they will grow up separated from the full time influence of their father, and will probably have a step-dad to take your place in their life. Is that what you want to happen?





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