Hi-
I've been reading here for several months, and I think it's time I told my story to hopefully get the opinions of others. My situation is very similar to others (of course). I don't want to get very specific, as it's possible my W could find this site. My wife and I are in our early 40's, we've been married almost 10 years, and have 3 young kids. We really loved each other, and really tried to be good to one another, but given that we got married in our 30's, we were in a hurry to get going on house, family, etc. We bought a fixer upper house right before we got married, and then had 3 kids within the first 5 years, the last of which wasn't exactly planned. The work load and finanacial strain brought out the poorer sides of our nature, and we both became moody and resentful of the seemingly endless responsibilities we brought upon ourselves, and our marriage unfortunately suffered over the years. We went to MC and IC on and off for the last 5-6 years. As our kids got a little older, things started to lighten around the house, and we each started to come out of our "funk", but our marriage was seriously damaged. There was a very frustrating dynamic between us where we each could see that the other loved us, and wanted to somehow get back to being happy, but we were so stuck, and MC wasn't seeming to help. The last few years, my W started down the WAW path. At first she complained about everything, and I oscillated between being angry with her about it and trying desperately to fix all the things she thought were wrong about me and our life. Then she just started to "check out" and she became extremely sensitive to any conflict between us. Every time there was any negative interaction, she would get very silent, and when I'd seek her out she'd tell me she was feeling very distant from me. She started to dwell on every negative thing about me and our life, and refused to acknowledge anything positive, of which there was plenty. We live in a nice town, our kids are awesome, we have great friends, we never had any truly hard times (job loss, serious illness, etc), and I very much loved her and was really trying to address all of her complaints.
A little over a year ago, my W told me she was done with us and that she was moving out, and that the kids would split time with us. I was devastated, and in an emotional explosion, I opened my heart to her in a way I never had before. She told me she went from having no hope for us to having a little hope. The next day I looked at myself in the mirror and decided if this family needed a hero, that was me. I changed dramatically that day. I decided to get in great shape (I was sluggish and overweight), and to become a completely positive force in our family. My W was shocked at my transformation, and about a month later told me should couldn't leave, and that she was willing to "wait and see" if her feelings changed. Although my changes became permanent as a truly new me (positive, kind, always smiling, energetic), as the year went on, she kept telling me her feelings weren't changing, and that she didn't love me any more. I was confused because we were very much becoming great friends again, talking all the time, and spending much time together. There was still a wall up though.
I didn't know at the time, but found out much later that she had initiated contact with a man she had know 20 years earlier in another country who had professed his love for her, but she had soundly rejected. She found him still single and still interested in her. They began an e-mail relationship, and she slowly came to prefer sharing her life and feelings with him via e-mail rather than with me. I was ignorant that this was going on. Last fall she told me our marriage was really over and that she'd be moving out the following spring. She moved out of our bedroom and into the guest room. I was again devastated, but found DB and DR books, and ramped up my changes even more. I acted "as if" things were great between us, and was happy-go-lucky around the house. She began to act quite strange, and I felt something was very wrong. She told me she wanted to start working on her PhD again, and was planning a short trip to this other country to investigate research opportunities right after Christmas. Ten days before Christmas I found e-mails in our family account between my W and OM that were devastating to say the least. They had begun a very explicit internet affair, and were planning to meet up to consumate their affair. I was an emotional basket case, but with the strength of friends and family bolstering me up, I told her if she went on the trip, she wasn't welcome back in our house. She backed down and said she wouldn't go, but that she was moving out right after the holidays. I told myself I wasn't going to let her actions ruin the kids Christmas, so I completely acted "as if" everything was fine. We actually had a wonderful holiday, and her heart even cracked back open to me a bit. It didn't last though, and she moved out on New Year's Day. My heart was truly broken when she took the kids to her new place and my family was gone.
I instinctively went very dark, and she was a train wreck, swinging wildly between her intensifying affair, and reaching back to me. My emotional state was not strong enough, and I'd weaken when she reached back to me, hoping she'd come back. She did travel to see OM after about a month, and her EA became a PA. She did begin to act very strangely toward me then. There was a kindness in her voice, and she started giving me little compliments when I'd see her to transition the kids. I was actually feeling pretty good about myself, I was in the best shape of my life, and I had a solid network of friends and family who were supporting me wonderfully. I embraced my new singlehood, and was having as much fun as I could, although I was still in extreme emotional pain much of the time.
This is getting very long, so I'll try to wrap it up. My W travelled again to see OM a month later, but she was acting increasingly kind toward me, although still distant. I was feeling pretty strong, but I did really miss my W and wanted my family whole again. I learned through the grapevine that my W and OM "broke up" about a month ago, although they still communicate regularly (nearly daily), so I'm not sure exactly what the status of that is.
My W has been increasing contact with me, is always kind in her interactions, and regularly invites me to do things with her and the kids, some of which I do, and sometimes I decline due to other plans I've made. Annoyingly, she often invites me on-the-spot, with the kids at her side, and I'm forced to see their faces light up when she asks, and watch them collapse if I have to (or want to) say no. I'm not sure what to do. Is this cake eating? Should I make her declare what her status is with this OM, or should I say nothing? Should I tell her that I will not do anything together as a family as long as the OM is in the picture? Should I just ignore the fact there is OM, and make the times we spend together just light and fun? Should I flirt with her? I have the advantage that the OM is in another country. We've never really had a R talk since she moved out, except for one brief moment when I had lunch with her about a month ago, and her wall came down and she said she's been really hating me and hating what I did to our marriage, but that she likes how I've been changing and that she misses me. She gave me a hug and a kiss on the cheek and asked if we could just take this a day at a time, to which I replied okay.
Regardless of the OM, she's still quite solid in her stance that we stay separated, although she's never used the D word. I've used the D word on a number of occassions, and she gets very uncomfortable. She does continue to remove her things from our (now my) house, and she does want to keep pursuing a formal legal arrangement.
I'm really at a loss here. My feelings have been quite unwavering that I really want my W back, but I have to admit, sometimes I wonder. My W is in many ways very selfish, and our relationship had to some degree been defined by her declaring her wants, and my trying (and usually failing from her point of view) to meet them. There is a ton I love about her though. I did the exercise where I tried to write down ten things I love about her, and I stopped when I got to 14. I will have to deal with the fact that she broke my heart and had a PA. I would like to at least have the chance to see if we could try again and build a truly great marriage. I've become convinced this whole thing has been a very painful, but very necessary wake-up call. I know that my thoughts and feeling about what I want out of marriage and life have changed dramatically, and I'd love to share them with my W.
Sorry for the long winded post. I'd very much appreciate any opinions anyone here is willing to offer. Thanks.
Sorry that I can't give much advice. I relate to the cake eating thing. My H seems to have all of the control and wants to be around me (asked me to do shots of tequila on a whim with him last night, which i declined). He picks my brain and wants to talk about our relationship and just when I think it is moving in a direction, he reaffirms how "done" he is. Aaargh. I, like you need more guidance on how to navigate the friendship at this stage, and if it is better or worse for the kids for us to spend time together.
It really bugs me when I feel like my W has all the control, so I insist on taking some of it back. Trying to walk this line between staying loving, but being tough and staying detached is very hard. I tend to fall back and forth over that line.
I can completely relate to your dilemma. Although I am painfully aware that the A is still going on, I have been making changes that my H definitely sees. He moved out about 10 weeks ago, and at first, there wasn't much contact beyond some curt emails. That progressed to us spending a couple of evenings together, which were actually very nice (not sexual.) But now I feel that he is definitely cake-eating and, although I may not go completely dark, I think the best thing would be to significantly detatch. I'm so confused. I think the best thing (as my DB coach has taught me) is to try a specific behavior (i.e. backing off) and see the response. The problem for me is that, although my H's response to seeing me happy and upbeat and looking great was positive, he is still "in love" and having hot sex with the OW. Very difficult to figure out what to do.
my story #1 my story #2
blueheart-
That really sounds like some serious cake eating you're allowing. If the OM in my situation was local, and I knew my W was seeing him, I'd probably just stay as dark as possible, and maintain strict boundaries, as in no time together other than the minimal required to deal with kids, etc. In other words, business only. For me, the fact that the OM is so far away puts me in a very confusing situation. In some ways, I now feel like the OM. I'm here, able to see my W in person and have fun with her, while he's stuck thousands of miles away. My W still has solid walls up toward me though, and I try not to fight them.
Oh - you're so right! It was actually my DB coach who encouraged me to see my husband and test the waters. Now, I agree that it's time to go as dark as possible. It's the unknown/being in limbo that's the hardest for all of us. In some ways, I can't imagine my H staying in the life he's suddenly created for himself, but who knows? Thanks for the advice
Future, I think you are doing great and the right thing. I guess the only thing I would avoid now is the R talks. I also think it is time to tell her in a private conversation, "I really enjoy spending time with the kids, I think it's great when we can do things as a family. However, if you would like to do that, please ask me in private or give me some more than "on the spot" notice in front of the kids. I feel awful saying no to them and that's not fair if I have prior plans and others are counting on me. If given the right notification, we can work out great family nights together." I agree with you, that's crap.
Keep GALing. I am glad you have a great support system.
blueheart
This is from the book and I think it gives a better explanation as to why your DB Coach said to see your H:
Page 215-216 in Divorce Remedy
"You need to gather all your strength to stop talking about the affair. In fact, it behooves you to stop asking questions about their relationship completely. The more you ask, the more your spouse will feel pressured. The more your spouse feels pressured, the more s/he will want to flee. Control yourself."
“You also have some investigative work to do. No, I don’t mean snooping around to find out what is really going on. Since you can’t approach your spouse with any information you discover, you are only hurting yourself by snooping. You need to figure out what is so darn appealing about this OP. Do they have a great sex life whereas yours has been paltry? Does s/he flatter your spouse a great deal, building his/her ego? Is s/he spontaneous, willing to do things at the spur of the moment, when you like to have thigns planned months in advance? Is s/he a good listener, always interested in what your spouse needs to say?
You need to find out what need your spouse is fulfilling by spending time with this person so that you can do a better job fulfilling that need yourself. You need to make some changes. Don’t tell your spouse that you are going to change or that things will be different, just start acting differently.”
You can do this--knock it out of the park.
futureunknown,
You are in a tenuous position. It sounds like you are doing all the right things. I congratulate you on that. You should look into Retrouvaille at their website,
http://www.helpourmarriage.org. They have weekend workshops for married people going through difficult times where you work together on communication. It is not counseling, you and your wife talk in total privacy, but they give you questions to answer and things to think about. The weekend saved my marriage, and I recommend it highly as do several other posters on this website. At this point, I would look at the retrouvaille website and choose a weekend that works for you, and then invite your wife to go there with you. I would focus on getting her to go to the weekend. You will make more headway there than anywhere else.
stillloveshim-
Thanks for the advice. I have been totally avoiding R talk, as I know from prior mistakes that nothing good comes from bringing it up right now. During the lunch I referred to, it was my W that initiated the R talk, and I said almost nothing. We were just chatting about the kids, when the look on the her face totally changed, and I realized her wall was down. That's when she talked briefly about our R. I just let her speak, and acted kind. When she was done I told her I could see she was changing, and that I liked what I was seeing. Then I made a little joke to lighten the mood, which she seemed to appreciate greatly.
Sara-
I have looked into Retrouvaille extensively, and I agree it might be something my wife and I could really benefit from, but my gut tells me now's not the time. This whole thing needs to play out a while longer, and she needs to heal some more, as well as come to some conclusion regarding the OM, or not I guess. I think one of the requirements of Retrouvaille is that no other parties are involved, and that's definitely not the case yet for my W, unfortunately.
Well tonight we were all together to watch my son's first baseball practice of the season. My W arrived in a truly foul mood, I assume due to drama with OM. I had fun with the kids, and kidded around with my W and before long she was smiling and in a better mood. After my son's practice she invited me to have pizza with them, which I did and we all had a nice time, although my W remained quite negative. I'm really starting to resent the fact that my W's affair is affecting her ability to be a good mother to our kids. She was crabby and impatient with them, and it really angers me that her priorities are so out of wack and selfish. I know I'm walking a fine line here, but this can't go on much longer before I have to take a stand.
Spent another afternoon and evening with the W and kids at wife's invitation. Went miniature golfing and had dinner together. W said she had a fun time, and I agree, but saying goodbye is always tough. W was friendly, but kept her wall solidly up.
Obviously she wants to spend time with me or she wouldn't invite me. She uses the excuse that's it's for the kids, but I know if she didn't want to see me, she wouldn't be inviting me. I worry that because the OM is so far away, I'm just her second choice. I don't know, and I think asking her would not be a wise move.
I'd really like to get the opinion of some of the other folks here that have dealt with separation and affairs.
Transitioned the kids from W to me this afternoon. It's awesome having the kids, but the transitions are hard on all of us.
What I would love to know is why my W is being so nice to me. I'm nice in return, but I don't if I should be. The kids are her power over me. I so much want to keep things as positive as possible between us to ease the strain on the kids, so I always act happy and fun during the transitions. They are the poor innocent victims here, forced to ride this train. I worry that my desire to protect the kids from negativity is making me look weak to my W. She's under this illusion that they're just fine, yet I'm left holding them while they cry and ask why we can't all live together. She says that's normal and healthy. Yes, that is normal for kids who are forced to endure separation and divorce, and it is healthy for them to express their feelings, but that doesn't make it okay that they've had to endure this.
To answer a previous question on here, if its good for the kids to have the 2 of you spend time together, Yes, absolutely, if you are not fighting or being nasty to each other. They need to know that the 2 of you are still a team an will continue to work together to make sure that they are safe.
Future, I had a similar situation, my H's OW was in another part of the state, on an island that he could only take an expensive plane ride to if he wanted to see her, so I had that on my side, in fact, because he was so far away from her, she started seeing someone else. H tried to surprise her, and caught her with her OTHER boyfriend. It would be beautiful if it wasnt so heartbreaking. Now we have been separated for 9 months, and just taking things a day at a time. No R talk, we are just reestablishing our friendship. He is living on the other side of the country so Im kind of forced to keep it slow.
I think that its hopeful that your W wants to spend time with you, and you have been doing some great DBing. Be patient, it took years for your M to get to this point, its not going to take time to fix too. Stay strong for your kids, and dont stop rebuilding this friendship with your wife, I thought that you said that they had broken the A off? Reestablishing your friendship very often is part of repairing your R.
bluerain-
Thanks for the reply. We are absolutely a team when it comes to the kids. In the past, we never put our issues before our responsibilities as parents, and I know my W is relieved that we are maintaining that, mostly. It's just really hard on me since my W's wall is still up so strong, and truthfully, so is mine, so these times together are so weird. They're not really tense, but it's clear there is an elephant in the room that is off limits to discuss, so we are left just chit chatting about little mundane details of our life. I try to joke around, but my heart isn't always really in it. I also worry that it's sending a confusing message to the kids. Are mommy and daddy apart or aren't they?
I don't have great intel about my W's A. I do know they "broke up" about a month ago, whatever that means when they're separated by thousands of miles. The A started crumbling right after she came back from seeing him the last time, so I assume it didn't go well. I know they still talk regularly, as in several times per week. So is it still an A? I say yes. My wife's mood fluxuates wildly day to day for reasons she won't discuss, which I take to mean trouble with OM. From what I've read about affairs, they tend to sputter for a long while before they just die, so that's probably what's going on. I know I can't really trust anything she does or says until it's really over, and she never discusses it with me, for obvious and good reasons.
Thank you for reminding me I need to be patient. It is very hard sometimes. I understand I need to re-establish a friendship with my W, but I get such conflicting advice. On the one hand, re-building the friendship is the first step to reconciliation, but on the other hand, I shouldn't allow her to cake eat, I shouldn't be a doormat, she needs to think I've moved on, etc. That's where I'm really stuck.
Last night my W and MIL came over to the house to visit with the kids for a while and we had a really nice time. We all just sat around the dining room table and talked while kids sat around us coloring in their coloring books and showing us their masterpieces. It felt genuinely warm and comfy and almost normal, to me anyway. My W was smiling and kind and friendly, and seemed very at home in the house. They were only going to come for a quick visit to say goodnight to the kids, but ended up staying for well over and hour. I was sad when they got up to leave, not that I showed it. My W thanked me for letting her come over to see the kids, and then spontaneously gave me a big hug and held on a little tighter and a little longer than a normal friendly hug. I just hugged her back and let her dictate how long it lasted.
I wish I knew what was going on. I wish I knew what the status of the OM is. I assume if my W is serious about moving us forward at all, she'll eventually bring it up. If she makes a really bullish move toward me, like asking me out for a date, should I bring it up? I really don't want to be with her if she's still involved with him in any way. Given that the OM is so far away, I will not tolerate being her surrogate boyfriend, which is essentially the role she had me in last fall before I knew the truth.
Even if she her affair is completely over, I'm still not totally sure how I'd want to proceed, but I know that's the number one requirement for even cracking open the door.
I would say, if it is important to you, then you should talk about. However, you don't have to ask. Let's assume that you two are having a dinner together at some point. You could say something to the effect of, "I do enjoy spending time with you. But it is important to me that we be exclusive with each other. You don't have to tell me anything about your relationship with OM, but if we are not being exclusive together, then I would rather we didn't spend time together." That lets her know what your boundary is. And she knows how to act based on her situation, which she doesn't even have to confide to you.
Thanks Sara. That's an idea I may just use if the opportunity present itself. However, my W should already know my boundary. A few days after my W moved out, her strength weakened, and she came to me looking for comfort. I told her "As long as your involved with someone else, I can't offer you anything." If she still remembers that moment, she knows where my boundary is. Right now all of our together time has been centered on the kids, which I'm tolerating, for now, although I still wonder if I should. Before I heard of my W's affair "breaking up", we did have a little family time here and there, and it was quite strained. Now it's much more frequent, much less tense, and longer in duration. I don't know how my W feels about it, but it serves to remind me of what I lost, and is stalling my ability to move on. I can't continue like this forever.
Almost used your initials to start this note, but it didn't look good. So I guess I'll call you future.
future,
It is the unsaid things that we thought the other knew that got us where we are in the first place. So, I would say, never assume that she knows what you think or feel. And secondly, I think waiting around and putting your life on hold is a mistake. That empowers her to keep doing what she is doing.....very little. You need to get a life, and be happy and busy doing it. If she decides that she wants to be part of that life, then you have a decision to make, whether to adjust your life to make room for her, or not. But as long as the door is wide open waiting for her to walk through it, what is her motivation?
I am really trying to live my life regardless of my W's actions, and I'm doing fairly well. I was actually doing better when her affair was going strong, as I really wanted nothing to do with her. Now she's returning to normal somewhat, and we're enjoying some time together, so that's got me somewhat caught up in the hope trap, which is a dangerous place to be. That's part of why I finally wanted to tell my story here. It was sort of obvious to me what to do before, but not so much now, and I was looking for a little advice.
These are very individual situations, and the advice that you have been following has mostly, I think anyway, to use while the walk away is walking away, or in the A. The advice about respecting yourself and your M and not being a doormat will always apply.
I think that you have every right to ask her to stop contacting him... AT ALL, if she wants to reconcile, and you do too. I have a feeling that if she truly does want to come home, this whole episode will be very shameful for her and she will stop contacting him on her own. But she might not be ready for that just yet, is it still and emotional affair? You have to figure out what this is satisfying for her.
It sounds like you have been having some really nice times together, as a family. Maybe you should just focus on that for now.
bluerain-
Yes, these are all individual situations, aren't they? I was afraid you were going to say that. I was hoping for some nice clear instructions on what to do, but that's asking too much.
Here is my situation, best that I can make it out. I think my W's A is probably existing now as a weak EA. She has worked through much of her anger, and it has left her feeling much warmer toward me. She obviously likes my company, and I assume she's interested in how my being around makes her feel. However, she is NOT interested in moving home, and truthfully, I wouldn't let her. I think this house is too tied to her bad feelings and bad memories, and I wouldn't want to dredge those up if she's managed to heal. If my M does survive, it will be based on a new future, with a new place to live, a new marital plan, new respect for each other, etc.
I saw our MC last week, and an interesting thing happened. I have occasionally been going to our MC by myself. I know my W has been as well, although I don't know how much. Since we're now essentially doing separate counseling as separated individuals, our MC maintains confidentiality between us, so she wouldn't tell me even if I asked if my W was seeing her. Anyway, I was expressing much of what I discuss here, about how I don't know if I can maintain my self respect if I'm spending time with my W while she's still involved with the OM, etc. I was clearly feeling very angry at my W, since she hasn't shown one shred of remorse over what she's done. The MC asked me what I would need from her to start forgiving, and I said I would need her to express true sorrow and remorse over what she did, and I would need to hear in her voice and see in her face that she's feeling some of the pain that I felt. But since I was angry, I said I really didn't think she was capable of expressing that, as apologizing was never her strong suit during our M. My MC stopped and paused. I could see the wheels were turning in her head. Then she said "Don't give up on her." I was a little shocked. MC's are not supposed to tell you what to do. They're supposed to help you decide what you want to do. I asked "Why not?" She said "The way you two are changing, I wouldn't put anything out of reach." That left me feeling strangely optimistic.
Tonight I returned from a business trip, and I had to stop by my W's house to exchange vehicles. She was very nice, and invited me in to hang with the kids for a little while. I took her up on her offer. One of her friends showed up and they opened up a bottle of wine and offered me a glass, which I accepted. So I sat with my W and her friend drinking wine and joking around for a while. W's friend said I looked hot in my business suit, which was nice to hear. Another of my W's friends showed up, and I could see they were planning "girl talk" so I said goodnight to the kids and made my exit. I'm getting used to this, and it's making me nervous, like I'm heading for a fall.
Last night during our son's baseball game, my W told me she had all the kids away at sleepovers on Friday night, and she asked if I would like to go out to see a movie with her. She kind of made a joke of it, and said we'd be going just as friends, but I knew it was a meaningful gesture on her part. Initially, I was cool to her offer, and didn't really reply one way or the other. At the end of the game as we were leaving I did say I'd like to go, and we made a tentative plan. I wasn't optimistic she'll follow through though. When faced with me saying yes, she backpedaled a little and said she had a plan to watch a movie at her friend's house, and she'd have to see if she could get out of that. She said she'd call me tomorrow to let me know. I said "If you're not going to go, I need to know so I can make other plans." She replied, "I'll let you know as soon as I can tomorrow, if you have another option, take it. I don't mind." She was friendly, not annoyed, but I got the distinct feeling I was being played a bit here. She got me to say yes to her offer, and now she was giving herself an out.
Sure enough, this morning she sent me a message that she couldn't ditch her friend, so she couldn't make it to the movie with me. Gotta love these WAW games! I think it's time I went a little dark again...
It is impossible to predict their moves, so don't even try....
Maybe next time you shouldn't say that you need to know so that you can make other plans because she will think she is dictating the pace and controlling your Agenda. Because it could look like are making her a priority and obviously are just waiting around for her invitation. I think you could say, let me think about it and call me in the morning. That way she has to make the call to find out what's going on.
Thanks kara-
Yeah, I felt like I boxed myself in a bit. I had already said I wanted to go to the movie with her, and when she backpedaled and said she wasn't sure if she could make it (after SHE invited ME!), I wasn't quite sure how I should play that. I was annoyed to be sure, but I didn't show her that. I tried to clearly express that I have a life, and that I couldn't wait around for her to tell me at the last minute, but it definitely came off like I was letting her dictate my agenda, like you said. I need to get better thinking on my feet, and remember the rule, if you can't quickly figure how to respond, just say "I need to think about it."
You could say that you already had plans, but would see if you could get out of them... use one of her own lines! Or, you should actually make plans for yourself, join a yoga class, or cooking class, or something. It wouldnt be too bad if you ditched it, you know, because you wouldnt be really letting anyone down, and if you ended up going, that would be cool too. I think that you are right about going dark a little again, just to feel things out.
bluerain-
I'm a terrible lier, so I hate even trying it. Usually I don't need to, as I am actually quite busy, but I had been on a business trip this week, and hadn't made a plan for Friday night yet, so she caught me in a weak situation. I do have guitar lessons earlier on Friday evenings, but I had nothing scheduled afterwards. After she asked me and I didn't reply, I felt a little bad, because I had said no to several of her invitations over the last few weeks, due to my having other plans, so I thought since I DIDN'T have anything going later Friday night, why not say yes? I think she'd been a little put off by my turning down her other invitations, so she probably just wanted a yes answer to turn the tables on me a bit, and she did. I'm happy with myself that I'm not hurt or bothered by this too much. It's just a game.
I have made another plan for tonight, so I won't be sitting home!
Future, thats why you make it the truth! Dont lie, hasnt there already been enough dishonesty? Actually make other plans. Can you pick up a new hobby? Do you need any continuing training for work?
How would she react if you told her that you would rather plan an evening out, a movie, or dinner or whatever. I totally know that if my H invited me to do something I couldnt say yes fast enough, so you are already doing better than I am! So, I know that sometimes (or often!) its easier to give advice than to take it.
Yeah, I definitely don't want dishonestry, just the opposite. Like I said, I do really try to stay busy.
I not quite sure how my W would react if I suggested something, but I really don't think we're in a good place for that yet. Sometimes I get lulled into forgetting how bad and painful what she did was. It's not something that can just be "smoothed over". There's going to have to be a day of reckoning at some point. I think we can both feel it whenever we're together. Either we're just going to go our own ways and that will be that, or we're eventually going to have to honestly discuss what happened, and I know neither of us is looking forward to that, nor are we ready for it yet. We're in a weird phase where we're trying to heal, we're trying to be really nice to each other, we're trying to be the best parents we can through this, we're trying to survey this dynamite-laden situation from afar for a while longer until one of finally gets bold enough to bring it up. Are we there yet? I don't think so. Maybe in a couple more months.
Spent another afternoon and evening all together at the W's house. It seems like no matter what our plans are, somethings happens that encourages us to all be together. I was just supposed to go pick up the kids from my W's house, but a couple friends were over and the kids were all playing in the yard. My W asked if I'd like to just stay for a while so the kids could play, which led to all afternoon, which then led to us all having dinner together, then hanging out after dinner, etc, etc, etc.
This is just weird, and I'm not sure what to do, so I just roll with it. It feels healing in a way, but also dangerous.
Ok, I really need some advice from some of the experts here on being tough. I am getting very concerned that I have been too easy about this whole situation. While my W's affair was going strong, I had success going dark and GALing, but even then, my boundaries were weak at best. My W definitely respected that I moved on, was living my life, and just let her go. I was great with the kids, and I was always totally solid as a co-parent, even though I was livid at my W. I was too weak when my W would reach out to me though. I kept seeing it as an opportunity to re-connect with her, and it would always just be a fleeting moment, then she was back to full WAW mode. I swear I could literally see her change before my eyes as she realized "Ok, I've still got him, so I don't need to really worry about what I'm doing." I slowly realized this was a problem, and I did hold tough a few times, but before I had to do anything drastic, my W's affair died on its own.
Now that my W's affair is apparently over, our relationship has calmed so much that I worry it's gotten too "easy", for lack of a better word. My W and I are spending much time together with the kids, she regularly invites me to do things with her and the kids, I've had dinner at her house with friends, she even asked me out to a movie (although she then weaseled out of it). We joke and tease each other, and there is some very casual non-sexual physical contact (fun hitting and poking, hand on the shoulder, hugs, etc). We hang out with our friends, and it's almost like we're still together.
However, my W is still pushing for the legal separation, and shows no real interest in reconciliation. She wants to split up our possessions, come to some agreement on financial separation, a schedule for the kids over holidays, etc. She seems happy as can be at her new house, and is enjoying getting it set up for the long haul. We've been separated for 4 months now.
I've been going along with the separation proceedings, even though in my state I have no obligation to do so. She has no grounds to divorce me, so if I don't want to agree to separation, there's not a whole lot she can do about it. I'm starting to wonder if I should take a stand and refuse to participate anymore, with the reason that we clearly still enjoy being together and we're still functioning as a family in most ways. On the one hand, will she respect that I'm holding tough for what I want, or will it destroy all the good will between us because here I go again trying to stop her from doing what makes her happy? I'm trying to find the balance between still being loving toward her, yet not letting her manipulate me into a separation I don't really want.
Thanks in advance for advice anyone is willing to offer.
boy, this is tough. I told my H that I wouldnt even discuss D while the OW was still in the picture. I guess I would say that you should stick to your guns. This is your marriage too, and she isnt the only person to get a say in what happens to it.
What happens if you just dont participate? Can she go forward at all without your consent? After 6 months or a year?
Bottom line, as far as I am concerned, you shouldn't put yourself through any more hell for something that you dont want. Yeah she might flip.
Does anyone else think that this is a place for a LRT? If you arent ready to go to the last resort then I think that the answer is no, but maybe you should start reading up on it just in case it does come to that.
It sure is tough. Bluerain, maybe you've hit the nail on the head though. I hate the idea of moving forward with the separation if my W is still under the influence of the OM, so perhaps I should take your exact same stance. As long as the OM is in the picture, I will refuse to move forward with the separation. The question is, how do I verify she's had no contact with the OM, and how long do I require this no contact before I'll relent?
If I don't participate, her only recourse is to get a lawyer, spend a lot of money we don't have, and try to trump up some grounds for divorcing me, of which she has none. She'd have to try to claim that her unhappiness in our marriage was essentially a form of abuse I was inflicting upon her. Of course she was unfaithful, and she'd know that was a card I could pull out at any time. I know deep down she's ashamed about that, so I don't think she'd want that coming out. If she really stuck to her guns, and it was just getting uglier and uglier, I'd relent. My wanting to stop the separation is just send the message that I'm not going to tolerate her dicatating how this is going to go anymore, a la No More Mr Nice Guy.
As far the LRT goes, that's essentially what I've been doing. I don't initiate any R talk, I only contact her to discuss the kids, I don't initiate physical contact hardly at all, I always have a PMA when I'm around her, etc. Now that things have improved between us, I guess I'd say now I'm really doing LRT-lite, in that when I do spend time with her and the kids, I drop my guard somewhat and have friendly conversation, and I don't act quite so mysterious. She doesn't know all of what I do when she's got the kids, but I do answer her honestly if she asks, instead of dodging the question like I used to. The fact that she asks is interesting, I think. It funny how she does it too, like she really doesn't care, she's just wondering.
I had "spies" who told me that she was seeing someone else, and that he had tried to surprise her by showing up unannounced and found her with another man... still makes me smile...
Do you have anyone around who can be your informant? Im not saying that you should ask questions that you dont want the answers to, believe me, you have to be careful about that, but just someone to tell you that it over between them.
Honestly I think that you will be able to tell, when she stops showing up looking like shes slept or showered or eaten: its over. My H went from being a dark haired military man, strong, muscular, healthy, to having sunken eyes, dropping weight and his gray hair doubled. He became extremely depressed, which is not something that would have happened if he was still in the fantasy of spending the rest of his life with the sex goddess OM.
So I really think that you will know.
Looks like it's just you and me here on my thread bluerain. Thanks for sticking around.
Sounds like your H got the karma he was due. Must've been quite a scene!
My W has a friend who is her main confidant, and she is my friend too. I've considered asking her, but in the past she told me she will keep no secrets with my W, so I can expect that she'll tell my W that I asked, and I'm not sure I want my W knowing that. If my W wants me to know, then she should tell me. Of course she's probably really embarrassed and feels foolish, so perhaps her not telling me is because of that.
You're absolutely right about being able to tell, and yes, my W fell off cloud 9 back around 6 weeks ago. She was crying all the time, had to go on anti-depressants, and then started eating all the chocolate she could get her hands on and gaining weight, which is her stress reaction. She seems to be recovering slowly, and this has coincided with the improvement of our R. One of my friends told me to be careful, because she's effectively on the rebound now, and I know to heed that warning.
Although I believe the main affair is over, I think they've agreed to "just be friends" due to the distance between them, and they are still talking occasionally to each other. In my opinion my W is still involved in an EA, albeit a minor one at this point. This is the situation I don't know how to handle, and perhaps this is what I should ask our friend about.
I have the advantage that I'm right here and I see her all the time, but does that just make her take me for granted, allowing her to pine away for her lost OM? In my gut, I think that's what's going on. Should I go dark, effectively forcing her to be alone (or find someone new!), or take advantage of our time together, be fun and charming, and hope we'll grow closer? So far that does seem to be working, but I sometimes feel like I'm compromising my self respect by giving my warmth and humor to a woman who hurt me so bad and has shown no remorse. Will her feeling closer to me force her to face what she did and eventually express remorse, or will it make her think she got away with it because I seem so okay with everything?
Have you been looking at all at the affairs forum? You can read about other peoples sitch's over there and learn from what they have done.
Shes probably grieving for that OM relationship. I know its disgusting. Have you talked to your friend about what he was giving her that you couldnt? Or maybe just ask her what she thinks you would do to be there more for your W, its a thin, thin line between real information gathering and accidentally asking a question that you really dont want to know the answer to. Even if she tattles on you to W, would it be so bad for her to know that her H is trying to be better for her?
Yes, I'm a regular reader over at the affairs forum, and I've learned some good stuff.
Shes probably grieving for that OM relationship. I know its disgusting.
It is so nice to hear that come from someone else!
I've never directly discussed the situation with our friend. At first she really closed down to me because she didn't feel she could maintain a loyalty to both me and my W, but ever since the affair died, she has been very friendly to me. In fact, all my W's friends have been super nice to me ever since my W's affair ended, which kind of threw me for a loop at first. I'm not really sure what's going on there.
I'm very resistant to discussing the OM with our friend, because I've essentially refused to acknowledge their R, as per DBing rules. Besides, I pretty much know what she was getting from her affair. It was a fantasy, removed from all the stress points in our life, kids, money, house issues, lifestyle negotiations, etc. She was complaining about everything in her life, and he was giving her the validation that it's all my fault, and that she's just a victim, and she deserves so much better, and she shouldn't settle for less than what she wants, etc. As he told her everything she wanted to hear, she became convinced that he was everything she wanted, and I was a drag on her life that needed to be cut loose. The biggest thing I've learned from her affair is that she wants to be HEARD, and to know her needs and wants are given real importance, and to feel totally safe expressing her dreams about life. I will be the first to admit I failed in that regard in the past.
I've maintained a very clear position that I've moved on with my life, and as far as my W knows, I've accepted the fact that we're getting a D. In fact, I've told her in no uncertain terms that I'd prefer to D her sooner rather than later, and that the only reason I'm not suing her for divorce is because of money and health insurance reasons. That was said back when the affair was going strong, and I wanted to send her a CLEAR message that I'm not sticking around while she's with another man. When the affair died so quickly, I was thrown back into limbo, by my own choice, but my W might not know that, even though I'm certainly much more open and friendly to her now. I do wonder if I should tell my W that my position has changed, but I don't know if I can do that until she shows me some remorse! Sometimes it feels like a silly game we're playing, except the stakes are so terribly high.
Its huge that you have acknowledged how you could have been better. Im not sure if you should tell her either. I think that it might freak her out. Are you still in the D process? Maybe you should just tell her that you arent as ready for it as you thought. Could you ask her maybe just how she feels bout the D still?
A big breakthrough that I had with my H was when we were discussing separating car insurance. I told him that the thought of us becoming even more seperate just made me sad. He agreed and it opened up a big dialogue for us.
Hi Future
I don't think you're ready to committ to the LRT, so don't.
Stop telling her you want a divorce. Stop talking about your R. No more D challenges. Maybe you should go darker. If she thinks she can divorce you and you're still going to be around when she's got nothing better to do, why wouldn't she divorce you? Maybe it's time to show her what life would really be like. And I am NOT telling you to date, but imagine if you met someone else? Someone else really great.....you wouldn't be able to do dinner with her and the kids, because you'd probably be out with your new great girlfriend. And you would spend the quality time with the kids when you had them and when you didn't, you wouldn't really be around your wife when she did. You might stay for dinner here and there, maybe when your new girl was busy or out of town....but do you get what I'm saying?
At this point, you've shown your W that life will be cool when you two divorce. You'll hang out and be buddies. If that's not how it's going to be, show her how it will be.
But realize, she maybe ok with that. And if she is, you have your answer. But I don't think she will be.
GAL. Start cutting her out slowly but surely.
bluerain-
Thank you for going so far back to find my thread. My W's actions show me that she wants to move forward with the legal separation. Deep down I don't think she really knows whether or not she wants a D, but she knows she wants to be separated right now, and if that's the case, then she wants to get an agreement in place, and I agree. We can't go on like we are. It prevents us from moving forward with our life. Getting that agreement won't preclude us from working on our R, it might even help, as we won't have to discuss finances anymore.
stillloveshim-
Awesome advice. You can probably tell from my posts that I'm very conflicted about my situation. I think in the back of my head I know I should do exactly what you recommend. I was doing just that back when my W's A was going strong, but when it ended, I allowed myself to get sucked back in. She's lonely now, and I'm showing her I'm still there for her, when I shouldn't be. Our kids are so happy when we're all together, and they've been through such a hard time, it's going to be tough to deny them that. If I consider it my attempt to bring our family back together, then that'll give me strength. You describing how I would act if I started seeing someone I cared about is exactly how I should look at things and try to model my behavior after that. Thanks again.
Tonight is a perfect example of my dilemma. My son had a little league baseball game. The kids are with my W until tomorrow, so she brings them to the game. I'm not going to skip the game just to stay dark. So there I am, sitting at the game. My W apparently likes to sit next to me, because she always does. I brought some drinks and snacks for my kids, of course I'm going to offer her some, I'm not a jerk. So there we are, sharing snacks, chatting and watching the game. Our conversations stays light, and we joke around with each other. The environment is so conducive to warm and friendly interaction. I would be miserable if I purposely avoided my W, and by proxy, my kids, and sat by myself on the other side of the field. But it's also true that these times together do make it hard for me to stay detached. Afterwards she asks if I'd like to get pizza with them, and my son is looking up at me jumping up and down and saying "yes, yes, yes, yes!" So I said okay, and went and had pizza with them.
As our R has improved, I'm more and more just being myself during these times, and not so guarded. My W seems to genuinely like me again. She chats freely, and teases me, and even initiates some physical contact, like putting her hand on my shoulder. Could I go to these things and be "darker"? Sure, I guess so. It would feel totally fake to me, like I'm not being true to myself, and it would probably make my kids anxious. Is this giving my W the idea that "Hey, this being separated isn't so bad?" Maybe it is. I don't know what else to do!
Conversely, when I'm not at events like this, I am quite dark. My contact with my W is very limited and essentially only to discuss kid issues, of which there are plenty given our young brood of three. In confusedinpa's thread, Coach says to be the best you possible at events like these, then be dark at all other times. I think that's the strategy I'll need to embrace given my situation.
As a side note, interestingly, each time I see my W at these games, she's always wearing the perfume she knows I like, and she has makeup and lipstick on. She even mentioned that she sprayed the perfume on right before she came to the game after I teasingly commented how strong the perfume cloud was around her! One of my friends has commented that she seems like she's trying to attract me and/or make me jealous. Why in the world would she want to do that? She left me, she said she doesn't love me, she had an affair she's shown no remorse over, she apparently is happy being separated. I've been pretty solid with my position that I'm fine without her, and my life is going well. Maybe she just wants me to say or do something to prove to her that I'm still hers.
Maybe I gave my W what she wanted. Don't know if this is a backslide or not. I had to get some stuff for the kids from her house, and I brought the kids in with me. I'm in a very good mood, I just ran four miles and the endorphins are going strong. Plus, my W has been very friendly and even flirting a little over the last couple days. She's dressed up to go to a party and she looks awesome. I'm all smiles, and the kids are all around us. I was standing very close to her kidding around a little, and there was a very good vibe in the room. My young daughter looks at us and asks very cutely "Are you two in love?" I looked straight at my W and waited for a reply. She got a little flustered and delayed looking at me, but after a moment she looked at me and said "A kind of love, a very special bond and friendship." I reached out and we tightly hugged, I kissed her on the shoulder, then I pulled back and cradled her face in my hands like I used to, looked in her eyes and smiled at her. She didn't stop me or pull away, nor did she say anything. I let the moment end and said we should get going.
Is that a backslide?????
That made me teary eyed. You let her answer, you were in the moment and you ended it and left.
Seems like a big win to me.
She may be a little weird or distant now, or not. But either way, I think you handled it like a real Man...
Thanks so much. I hope it is a win.
I fully expect her to be weird or distant now for a while.
Funny, I just read your post above the comment I responded to. Boy do I relate. This is some kind of bizarre purgatory and honestly I vacillate between feeling like the most together woman in the world (managing my emotions, being on with H when he's around and then dark when he's not) and other times I feel physically ill and like I am a rat on one of those balls just running tirelessly to nowhere.
I think the point is that this choice to DB does require growth (which of course is painful) and risk (because we are choosing to believe it is worth the effort). I try to remind myself that this is not for H but for me and that if he walks away from a S who is willing to work this hard and be this incredible, too bad for him and I'll move on. Still, we know what we want here and the little flickers of hope are like whiffs of hot soup coming from some house and we're starving and can't tell if it is a mile away or right in our own kitchens (I love my metaphors... :/).
Sometimes I wonder what alternative I have anyway. I have friends who have gotten divorced and no matter how they play it, it hurts. We are just trying to go through this as consciously as is humanly possible, right?
It is a bizarre purgatory. I have faith I'll come out the other side a better person, either with my W or not. Raising kids together, particularly young kids, makes detaching extremely hard, and they are like a gravity, pulling us together. My W resists the pull because she's a WAW, I resist the pull because I'm DBing and I need to protect myself, but sometimes it's exhausting fighting that pull.
DBing does require growth, which makes it hard, but satisfying. It is forcing me to be a better person in almost every way. The only risk I feel is potentially the loss of time moving on, if that's where I eventually end up. I do know that I have to get to a place where I'm 100% ok without my W before I can be my most attractive to her (or anyone else, for that matter). I'm about 75% right now.
One thing has occurred to me lately that concerns me. I think deep down my W is ashamed of her A, but she desperately wants to believe it was acceptable given that she perceived our M as over. She portrayed it to her friends as an exciting and wonderful new relationship. She told them our M was over a long time ago, and that the decision to end our M was mutual between us, giving her a get-out-of-adultery-free card. If she acknowledges that our M has any future, then she has to accept that she was a cheater and adulterer. She will fight very hard and very long to deny that. The sad thing is, I know her and she won't be able to maintain that lie and illusion forever. There will come a day when the truth will come crashing down on her and she'll have to face what she did, and she'll hate herself and regret what she did. Will I still be around then? Who knows?
I just found out my W's A is back on completely. I'm pretty devastated. I thought if it was a flash in the pan, maybe there was a chance we could start to rebuild something, but it's clear to me now she's in for the long haul. I don't think DBing is really in the cards right now. I'm just going to completely detach, go as dark as I can, and move on with my life. Don't know how much more I'll be posting here. Thank you everyone for your kindness and support.
I'm so sad for my kids... :-(
I thought maybe I had a chance to put our family back together. Got to really let it go this time.
Man, I am sorry for the big setback. I know you're torn up over it. This is a hard way to live. You love your wife, you love your family, and your marriage vows mean something to you. Some people, probably many people, are able to justify their actions...no matter how wrong they are! That doesn't change the fact that you love your wife and your family. It ain't over till the judge says it's over...and even then, people still get back together. Someone posted here recently that patience is the companion of wisdom! Detatch, as much as you can, like you said you need to do. Another poster wrote recently 'let her go, in your mind and in your soul, let her go. It's a decision. It's convincing yourself that you have no control over anybody other than yourself.' Now I know this is easier said than donew, but many here have done it...so it can be done. You don't have to give up...but, according to these people who have done it...you can let it go completely.
Try to think about the win you had the other day. It is not black and white, there are many shades of gray here.
Do the right thing, not because it's easy, but because it's the right thing to do.
My Hs A died, and he reinitiated contact and got things going again with the OW once. She ended up cheating on him. These things often die ugly ugly deaths when they finally go, Ive heard people describe it as burning hot and fast.
I know exactly how painful this is, after such devastation we tend to pin everything on the small glimmers of light that we force our selves to beleive exist, I dont think that it ever occurs to us that in doing so, we put ourselves in a position to lose everything a second time. I am so sorry, but I promise that it will get easier.
You have got to detach. Dont let her be a cake eater. While this is going on you can DB your butt off, and it wont make a difference. If she is going to be a bad friend, dont be her friend. Keep things business like and cordial and only about the kids and thats it. Remember what worked last time. And focus on the positives, such as the moment the other day, I know it seems like a lifetime ago.
Thanks very much for the kind words and support. Will I hold onto a tiny kernel of hope? Probably, but I'm going to bury it very deep, detach and move on. I need to GAL more and more so there's no room for her in my life. Since the OM is so far away, she is casting me as her surrogate boyfriend again, a role I will not tolerate. I need to enforce strict boundaries that limit my exposure to her to the bare minimum. I should have done that since the beginning and stuck to them. I guess it's human to hold onto hope...
I've also got to get our separation agreement done, as I can't be supporting her while she's spending money to pursue her A, especially one that requires international travel!
My son's little league games are going to be tough from now on. No more friendly chatting, and no more going for pizza afterwards. My son will be so confused and hurt.
Hello Futureunkown,
You saw me over in Puppy's thread and invited me to come by and read your stitch. I am down to page 5 scanning over most of it. I have to tell you that your W is very much typical. I could talk for a long time as to "why" she got to that place she was in, but your counselor has probably already discussed most of that with you. What you need to know is about "now". I apologize for not taking time to read all the replies you received and I may repeat some advice you have already been given.
I feel that your W's A is over. Even if she was still making contact through emails with the OM it is probably b/c she misses the "friendship". Yes, I know it is very weird! However, if she is getting any type of feedback that gives her ego a boost at all, then she will continue to contact until she is sick of him, sees through his game, or comes to her senses and realizes she has no feelings at all and does not want even a friendship with him. Probably, when they met for the "great" PA, she found out it was not near the fantasy she built up in her mind and was left very disappointed. He probably pushed for the second meeting and she went just to be able to hang onto him. You don't know the details of either of those meetings and they could have been disasterous for all you know. He may not have even been able to perform, which has been known to happen in these cases.
Based on what I have read so far, I think she is quickly seeing the reality of what she has done but still has a ways to go to get out of her funk. I truly belive she still loves you. There are many things that has to be worked through on both sides here. Your biggest part will be to completely forgive her. If you can't.....it won't work. So, the question I have for you so that I will know more how to approach this subject is to ask you if you are a Christian. Not everbody that comes to this board is a Christian and it certainly is not required, but many are and as I xaid, it helps me to know more about how to talk to you.
Anyway, your ego, self-esteem, pride, manhood.........all of it has been shot down......or rather it
would have been if you had not already been working so hard on yourself! Just think how devastating it would have been on you in that area, if you had not decided to do the "make-over" earlier on. At least you had that going for you. Still, the forgiveness is a huge issue and I know some H's that have taken their wayward wife back but never completely forgave them and they continued to have problems. There was always that undercurrent in the R. Therefore, you must decide if you think you can forgive her completely and accept her back as your wife and never bring up the subject of what she did and throw that in her face when you get angry at her. That is when it would be tempting to do.
She seems, to me, to be warming up to you very much. She is giving you all the right signals! However, that is not to say that she is ready to jump into bed with you. Since I don't know her.....I could be wrong about that and maybe she is, but I'll base this on what little knowledge and experience I have and say the timing is not ready yet. She needs to have an old fashion "courting" time with you. She craves romance, male attention, flirting, etc. That is what she wants from you at this time.
She also needs to know if you can forgive her before she feels that she can emotionally invests into a possible reunion with you. Wheather she will have the courage to bring the subject up or not, that is yet to be seen. Unless this has happened before I finish reading the thread. I have heard of a few that did ask their H's for forgiveness, but only a few. Every H wants to hear a remorseful apology from their WW. But, I can tell you it is a possibility that it will not come until after a reunion and she feels that it is safe to talk about it. It was a long time before I truly felt remoseful b/c I was so resentful toward my H. That is a very long story, and I won't get into it b/c this is about you and your W......not me.
"Are you two in love?" I looked straight at my W and waited for a reply. She got a little flustered and delayed looking at me, but after a moment she looked at me and said "A kind of love, a very special bond and friendship." I reached out and we tightly hugged, I kissed her on the shoulder, then I pulled back and cradled her face in my hands like I used to, looked in her eyes and smiled at her. She didn't stop me or pull away, nor did she say anything. I let the moment end and said we should get going.
After this quote, you asked if that was a "backslide". I do not see it as a backslide. I see it as a babystep forward to a future together. The first step is finding your way back together as friends. If you can't learn to like each other and be friends, then being lovers will never work even if you are attracted to each other. She was hesitant b/c she was not sure how you would react. I think you handled it perfectly and gave her a sign that you still loved her.......without saying too much or even showing too much expectations.
I have to go to work but will finish reading the thread to see what is going on. I don't think you should continue to go completely dark, but just be careful about pursuing. You cannot afford to start doing that at all! You will scare her away. Babysteps is what this requires and you have only made the first one. She may even back away b/c she may feel confused after this......I don't know. Will have to finish reading.
I am anxious to finish and to get back with you as soon as possible.
Sandi
Thank you Sandi for taking so much time to read up on my situation. I buy into some of what you're saying, however the newer developments that you haven't yet read may change your story somewhat.
I haven't posted a lot of detail, but my W's trips to see the OM were not disappointments to her, at least not in that way. Let me tell the backstory:
My W reconnected with this OM from her past, and they started exchanging e-mails. She started pouring her heart out to him about her dissatisfaction in her life, and how I just don't get her. He was very receptive and gave her standard lines back "You deserve so much better, you can't live your life like this, etc." She was thrilled to have someone validate her like that. In the real world, I was very much trying to the same, but under the burden of the real world responsibilities we were facing. When she got to the point where she truly felt the OM was a better man than me, she told me our marraige was over. Then she immediately turned on the sexual heat in the e-mails, got the hours long phone calls going, eventually web cam sex, etc. She was convinced she found her true soul mate. Even though I was able to get her to open up to me over Christmas, crack her resolve, and she even offered to sleep in our bed together, it didn't last. She moved out on New Year's Day. She then began free and regular contact with OM, and was having much web cam sex, longing to be together in person.
Here's what I know about her trips in chronolgical order:
First trip back in February, she was an emotional train wreck leading up to it. A week before leaving she just showed up at my house unannounced one morning and raided my medicine cabinet for anti-anxiety pills. She then sent me an e-mail later that morning and said she was in emotional crisis and that she was doubting her decisions. I e-mailed back that we should go see the MC so she can work out how she's feeling. She said maybe. She then called me that night and said she wanted to come back to "our" house and sleep in "our" bed. Here's where I should have been very tough, but I crumbled. I said "if you're feelings are pulling you back here, then you should see where they lead." I know now I should have been tough and said "The only time you'll ever sleep in our bed together is when I'm convinced you're here to stay!" After she saw I was still emotionally hers, her anxiety was reduced and her resolve to go on the trip strenthened. I was able to find out that when she returned from her first trip she said she was in love with him. Very odd though, just two days after she returned, I was coaching my son's basketball team and we were playing a game with my W watching from the stands. After the game she comes up to me and says "Don't take this to mean more than was it is, but you really look great out there," and I could see in her face she meant it. This is from a woman who previously told me she was in no way attracted to me anymore. I played it cool and just lightly commented back "You look great too," to which she looked sad and said "This is just tragic."
Second trip. I do know the phone and e-mail and web cam intereractions between them did start to become much more non-sexual and routine after that first trip, but she was still pursuing him very intensely, and he was struggling with what possible future they could have together given that they're stuck so far away. He was getting ready to end the relationship, and so my W stepped up her schedule to go see him again 6 weeks later. I responded to her very angrily that there was no way she should be leaving the kids again and spending money on another trip when we're barely paying our bills. She tried to stand up to me and told me "I'm a grown woman and I can do what I want," to which I replied I want to step up our legal mediation. She very much crumbled again, and called me very contritely claiming that she knows it bad time for her to go, but that she has some leads on PhD reserach there and she really wants to see where they go, and yes, she'll be seeing him too, but that's not the only reaon. I told her I didn't believe her, but I said my peace, so I dropped it. I don't know for sure what was going on, but she was acting very weird before going. She even invited me to go with her and the kids to see a play the very night before she left, and we had a really nice time, and was crying when she dropped off the kids to my house. She did call the kids a few times when she was gone, and acted very contrite when she did it, and genuinely thanked me for letting her talk to them. She got back on our son's birthday, and she brought gifts for everyone, including me, which I found very odd. Right after she returned, I could see she was starting to emotionally crumble. During a lunch I had with her, her wall came down and she told me she's been really hating me, but that she likes how I've been changing, and that she just wants to take it a day at a time with me.
A week later, she has a massive emotional crisis, and I find out they "broke up", which I later found meant that he told her there was no way he was every going to move here, and she can't move there because of our kids. She was a wreck, and went on anti-depressants. After a few roller coaster weeks, she started to act more normal and happy, and that's when our R started to improve. I thought her A was over, so my guard was down, and we stated to act a little more normal together. After our last interactions, I could feel myself getting pulled dangerously back in, so I needed to find out what was going on. I found that they were incapable to really breaking things off, because the long distance sex thing was just too erotic to pass up. My W has taken the pressure of him, saying don't worry if you can ever move here, she's going to get her divorce wrapped up, get her career in order, get a house, and maybe in five years they can see where they are. Wow, talk about a long term plan. She's also trying to plan several more trips for them to see each other.
The big picture here, my W is completely infatuated with this OM. As long as he'll string her along, she keep coming back for more. Will her pride and self-esteem eventually cause her to step back and say "What am I doing?" Who knows?
As far as her and my R, she is lonely, and I'm someone safe and comfy, and the father of her kids. We have a natural easiness between us that I keep hoping will lead back to an intimate relationship, but I think that's wishful thinking, particularly in the short term. Once my W's long distance A really runs its course, which could take YEARS, yes then I could see her feeling returning for me, but that's an awful long time. Meanwhile, it's easy to cast me in this role as surrogate boyfriend, getting emotional and financial support from me, then dumping me when she has a chance for the excitement of being with the OM. It's a role I refuse to take.
And oh yeah, I am a Christain, but someone of an unusual one, in that I have no real affiliation with any church. I have read the bible, and I feel the power of God in my life. I've been praying almost daily since this whole thing started, and I have no doubt that is what has keep me srong through this.
I really think I could forgive my W, but I know it's much easier said than done. It would depend a lot on how she was acting toward me. If by her actions I could see her continual desire to make amends(very attentive toward me, very supportive of me, much light physical contact, sexually adventurous but aware I may have some residual feelings about my hurt in this area and be willing to be patient to work throug them), I would slowly accept her apology and let go of the resentment. I think within the first year, we could be well on our way to complete healing. I really don't know if she has this in her though.
Given how wrapped up in the OM she is, I know I'm looking at probably another year before that may really be over. I can't hold off my life that long, so we're really going on our own paths now. The kids will keep us in constant touch, and I'll continue to be a very involved co-parent. I still do love my W very much, and I'll try to pack that away and bury it deep. I've learned to accept that predicting the future is impossible.
Wow! I sure hate to hear all of that b/c I am thinking you are probably right. I think that in years down the road (how many nobody knows)....she will see how bad a mistake she made. I am concerned that she is headed for a downward spiral of terrible emotional sadness of ups and downs in her life where this OM is concerned. However, you need to think about you and the kids.
I don't know what your laws are, but I would get the children as much as possible since their Mother is having an affair. I am usually not this quick to make a "decision" about a stitch, but I am sorry to say that I agree with your last post. I do think this will take a long time. What you need to do is to really work hard to emotionally divorce her as quick as you can b/c she will suck you back into a R with her b/c you will feel sorry for her seeing her hurt like she is going to be hurting. If/when she is on a emotional "high", then you will feel like you could despise her......so it is for "your" good to detach from her all the way.
Again, I am so sorry. I hope you will continue to stay on the board for support b/c you will need it throughout this ordeal.
Take Care,
Sandi
Thanks sandi. I am so sad about all this. My W is such a dreamer. It's something I love about her, but it so often leads her to disaster. It hurts me greatly that she'd rather deal with this insane long distance affair rather than be with me and bring our family back together.
Her girlfriends are totally supportive of her and her affair. They say she's so much happier now and outgoing and open about everything, especially sexuality. Makes me very hurt and sad when I've been trying to get her to open up to me for years, but she wouldn't or couldn't. So many other people agree with you Sandi that she's heading down a road of pain and misery. I can understand why she can't see it, but don't her friends see it?
Like I said, I'm trying to completely detach and move on. Whatever happens with her is out of my control and I can't ride her insane roller coaster. I've got to protect myself and my kids.
I can understand why she can't see it, but don't her friends see it?
I suppose it depends on what type of people she has for "friends". If they are divorced or cheating on their own S's, then that is why some are supportive. Others may find it something to brighten up their dull lives and have something to gossip about. I actually had people to tell me how great I looked and wanted to know what I was doing for myself! I did look good b/c I was "working" at looking great and younger (especially since the OM was younger than me). It was all those false "love" chemicals flooding my brain and gave me that "glow". It sounds sickening now. Try not to blame yourself for her "state of insanity" b/c there is nothing you can do that you have not tried that will cause her to snap out of it, shape up, or stop the on-going fantasy. By the time she discovers the "reality" of her dream.....it will become her nightmare and she won't be able to turn things around to have what she once did.
Some people might tell you to "stand for your marriage" but all of us are different and I believe that if you already know in your heart that it is over and she is not going to turn back to you, that you need to let her go. Someday when she sees what she's done and if you are still around and single......she may even want to go back home to you, but by then.....your feelings for her may be nothing more than pity.
She will have her little "cheerleading group" for a while.....until they grow tried of it and find something else that is more exciting to them. Five years is a long time to wait and by that time, if she is in MLC, she will probably wake up. I really think it will be sooner, but some have been there that long.
As I told you before, you keep coming here to express your feelings and frustration. Keep looking to the board for support b/c even if the M doesn't make it.....we are a community of supporters. We believe in surviving a D if you can't bust it.
Take care,
Sandi
I suppose it depends on what type of people she has for "friends". If they are divorced or cheating on their own S's, then that is why some are supportive. Others may find it something to brighten up their dull lives and have something to gossip about.
One of them is divorced, the other two are having troubles in their marriages, one of which is really on the rocks now. I feel bad for their H's. Them hanging out with my W is the worst thing for their M. Out of my control though.
I know my W has told them lies to make herself not look so bad. I know she told them our marriage was over years ago, and that we had already separated inside our house before she started the e-mail correspondence, and that our separation was mutual between us. All lies.
The truth is, my W started her EA while she was supposedly working on saving our M. What a joke. I can't believe we sat in MC and she never mentioned the OM once. How could she possibly think the MC was going to do any good? She just wanted to think she was giving it one last try, when she did nothing of the sort. She just dragged out the inevitable, leaving me absolutely frustrated and perplexed why none of what I was doing was really having any impact in our marriage. When I read in DR about it, MWD said that if you're doing all the right things (I was about 90% solid) and your W is still saying their feelings aren't changing, there is someone else involved. I remember thinking, "there's no way anyone else is involved, she's never out of the house long enough when she's not working." I didn't even think about an e-mail EA. Lesson learned.
Some people might tell you to "stand for your marriage" but all of us are different and I believe that if you already know in your heart that it is over and she is not going to turn back to you, that you need to let her go.
I have been trying to save my M for about 18 months now, really about 3 years if you count all the years my W was effectively telling me that she isn't happy and that if something doesn't change, she's done. I've completely turned myself around. I'm in the best shape of my life, I'm a positive influence on virtually everyone around me. I feel better about myself than I have in many years. My W isn't coming back and it's breaking my heart, again. I can't do it anymore. She's totally invested in the OM. She has a five year plan with him.
I asked God to release me from my marriage vows tonight. I can't go on like this anymore. It's hurting me and I have nothing left to fight for.
Thank you everyone who has helped me, bluerain, sandi, aliveandkicking, sara, antlers, blueheart, stillloveshim, kara, JLK2009. You are wonderful courageous people. I will continue to post here to try to help others and get support for my situation. I need to move through the separation and divorce process with grace and dignity. I haven't allowed her to drag me down to her level yet, and I'm not about to now.
It will be fine to stay here on this forum if you want to. The others (separated or divorced forums) does not have as much traffic as the Newcomers, but do what you feel is most comfortable. Just want you to stick around and continue to have a support group.
Sandi
I did look good b/c I was "working" at looking great and younger (especially since the OM was younger than me). It was all those false "love" chemicals flooding my brain and gave me that "glow". It sounds sickening now.
My W is constantly working on her looks too. Sandi, it eases my pain a little when you say "It sounds sickening now," because it really casts what she's doing in such a bad light, and it legitimizes my hurt. What about it makes you say that?
You are a great person for hanging here and giving advice.
The really frustrating thing for me is that my W complained that I abandoned her emotionally, which I know I did SOME of the time, but I was also right there, seeking her out, and trying to get her to open up to me much of the time too. She wouldn't have it, and she used the fact that I wanted it as leverage against me in our M. Now in this affair, she's totally in love with OM, and she portrays him as far more attentive to her needs than I ever was, yet he tells her there's no way he'll move here for her. Somehow she doesn't perceive that as rejecting and abandoning her? That's the essence of abandonment to have tell someone you need them, and have them say no, not worth it. Yet she just continues to offer herself to him, hoping he'll come around. From what I know about relationships, her not sticking to her guns, and giving in to him, is making him lose respect for her, is it not? Sandi, I assume this is why you say she's in for such a bad time?
futureunknown,
Don't pay attention to what your W believes or doesn't believe right now. My W was planning to leave me for her boss twice her age and M. After I kept berating her about the moral implications of what she was doing did she later show some kind of remorse and told me that she knew it was wrong and that it would not have worked out and that he would have cheated on her eventually.
Call it the "chemicals" in the brain or the feeling of being in love, whatever. Your W is following the same script all the WAWs are reading from. When all this madness started for me, my W was saying and accusing me of the worst things. Now when I repeat back to her what she told me, she acts shocked and says she doesn't remember half of what she said. How convenient.
I've been where you are. Where you feel like you have nothing left to give and that's understandable. Each time I had to find a little grain of faith and strength within myself. I learned the Stockdale Paradox from Coach and decided to not look at a timeframe, but to take each step one day at a time. And most importantly, I laid down a boundary and gave my W loving detachment.
It's hard when you think your W is with OM, but it comes down to what it is you want. If you want to continue to save your M, then it's never too late. If you've given all you can, there's no shame in stopping the pain. Either way, take away the lesson that this has made you a stronger individual.
Good luck.
Thanks stuck808. I know my W is totally whacked out right now with MLC and love chemicals. There's nothing I can do about it, I need to move on with my life for me and my kids. I am not the best parent I can be when I'm riding this roller coaster.
Deep down I know I'll always love my W, and there is a tiny kernel of hope I'm saving in case she ever returns to be the woman I know. I don't know where I'll be when and if that ever happens. It's a sad but needed risk I need to take.
I think that is an excellent attitude for you to have Future. Its so hard to get to that point, where you just throw up your hands and say "Fine". But, again thats where a lot of these things turn around. Who knows what will happen for her, but right now you just need to worry about what will happen for you and your kids. I think that you taught them a valuable lesson about the importance of M and family by trying as hard as you have. So maybe something good will have come out of all of this.
I made a playlist for my Ipod right about this stage in my sitch, it was all songs that told me things were going to be ok. Maybe it would help?
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quote]Quote:
I did look good b/c I was "working" at looking great and younger (especially since the OM was younger than me). It was all those false "love" chemicals flooding my brain and gave me that "glow". It sounds sickening now.
My W is constantly working on her looks too. Sandi, it eases my pain a little when you say "It sounds sickening now," because it really casts what she's doing in such a bad light, and it legitimizes my hurt. What about it makes you say that?
Do you mean why did I say it sounds sickening now? B/c the person I was when I was involved in the EA is not a person I ever knew. I was never that person before nor have I been that person since I gave up the OM. It embarrasses me and shames me and I had a very hard time forgiving myself. I have been a Christian since I was very young. Raised in a good home, married a good man, and had a Christian home all these years. Spent my life in Church and trying to live "right". But, then it was as if everything (all the "stuff" over the 40+ years) just came crashing down on me and I felt so empty, depressed, lonly, you name it. I started playing Internet games and the rest is history. Those games are very addictive and now I am worrying about my D b/c she is doing the same thing. Although she is happily M, it is not a good thing to get into. It is like a snare that will entrap you before you know what is happening.....especially if you are in an u
nhappy R.
Anyway, now I feel that I am myself again and I can look back at what happen and it seems like a nightmare. I have said this over and over, but still give credit to the folks here on this board for sticking with me and helping me to find my way out of the fog. A person (WAS) has got to want help to be able to come out as quickly as I did, I believe. Not many WAW's come here to the board, and I have hardly seen any men....but maybe there have been a few. It is hard! That's why I don't like for people to beat them up when they do have the courage to come here.
That is why I hang around.....trying to pay it forward. Don't know if I've help anyone, but even if I say something that would help save one M......all the hours would be worth it. I am so thankful that Michelle has this board and that we are free to express our thoughts without too much cencership....lol. I especially appreciate the fact that we are free to talk about our faith.......and/or people who aren't Christians can express their viewpoints, also. But the entire purpose is to bust divorces! I feel that if we can't support MWD's books and encourage people to use those techniques, then we need to be someplace else. There may be a point of two that some don't see eye to eye, but as a whole, I would think most people here would have to think she was right in what she teaches or else they are just hear to be heard. I've read a lot of M books and by far, she gives the tools as to what to do when it has gotten to the place of S or D looming. Oh, well, enough of my advertising.....lol.
You take care,
Sandi
"Don't know if I've help anyone..."
You kidding? You have probably helped hundreds already!!! Just sayin'. 
Thanks Sandi-
I second what aliveandkicking said!
I know my W was unhappy in our M. I have many regrets. I truly believe much of our unhappiness was situational. Three kids in four years, post partum depression, house renovation, financial difficulties, medical problems, all added up to stress on top of stress on top of stress. She seems genuinely happier in some ways, as she feels like she left the stress behind (which she hasn't, she just thinks she has, for now, reality will hit soon), but she has this "bad vibe" around her too, which I think is what you're referring to Sandi. She's obsessed with her looks and her weight. When her affair is on an upswing, she acts like she's in the world's best and most exciting relationship, she constantly boasts to her friends how great it and he is. When their R is on the rocks, she becomes mean and is a misery to be around, and our poor kids have to endure it. The ironic thing is that one of the "reasons" my W gave for why we needed to separate was that she thought our R wasn't a good example for the kids to see growing up. She felt we weren't loving enough to each other, which is weird for her to say when she constantly rejected my love. Anyway, what she's now living is a terrible example for our kids, in my opinion.
bluerain-
Thanks for the offer. How would I go about getting your playlist?
And oh yeah, sometimes I still wonder what is REALLY going on with my W. I know she's obsessed with this OM, but of course he's in another country, so she can't be with him. As I said before, she's practically throwing herself at him, saying she's never felt so loved, etc. Yet she seeks out my attention as well, and wants to tell me what's going on in her life, except of course about the giant elephant, which is NEVER discussed. She teases me and flirts and asks about what's going on in my life.
Now that I've dropped the rope and decided to move on, my attitude has shifted substantially. I went to my son's little league game last night, and my W was there. She seemed happy to see me, but I was much less enthusiastic. I was polite and cordial, but no more. I stood a distance away from her, rather than sit right next to her as I used to. She immediately asked if I had gotten a haircut, which I hadn't. Seems like she's always commenting on something about my looks when I see her. I needed to call a friend to arrange our weekend plans, which I didn't want to do in front of her, so I told her I was going for a walk. She looked puzzled and asked "Aren't you going to watch the game?" I said "I won't be gone long." I walked around to the back of the field and I don't know if she could see or not that I was on my phone for about 10 minutes. I got back to where she was and I was cheery and asked "Did I miss anything exciting?" She refused to look at or acknowledge me. Her mother finally said "No, you didn't miss anything." My W eventually warmed back up and started telling me about her day. For someone who is totally in love with OM, and wants to D me, she sure doesn't seeem very detached herself!
I dont know how to send them, maybe someone should start a thread of Music Therapy!
So you are sure that shes back on with the OM? What does everyone else think about future telling her that this is a deal breaker for his friendship? I told my H it was. I guess if its a deal breaker for you then its a deal breaker, but Im not sure if its a good idea to say it. I also wouldnt say anything until I was absolutely sure that she was in fact with him, you dont want to do anything to further injur your M, even if you end up leaving. I am a big beleiver in sort of having your M euthanized rather than beaten to death.
I dont know what to make of her behavior, other than if she is back with him, shes seeking you out for the physical interaction, not sex of course, that she cant get from him. But I just cant imagine that hes being "faithful" to her if hes in a different country?
Yes, she's definitely back with the OM. I have reliable intel. She's desperate to keep that R going. She's arranging several trips for them to get together, even though he's told her he won't move here.
I don't need to tell her that her R with OM will be the end of us. She's going to see that she's losing me, because she is. Whether she comes around soon enough to catch me before I'm gone, who knows? Truthfully, I doubt it, given what I hear about her and OM. I'm not worrying about it anymore, I'm just going to live my life, and hold nothing back.
I do genuinely love my W, and I am worried about her. She is waaaay overinvested in this OM, and she is heading toward a world of hurt. I actually feel bad for her. Out of my control though.
Some men and women can do this, but I was one who couldn't. I could not want my H and want the OM at the same time. There would never have been OM if I had desired my H like I should have. I have read LBW's talk how their H's can be in an A with OW and come home and go to bed with them as if nothing was going on. That blows me away! Maybe your W is one that can do that. She wants you both or else her ego wants to "see" if she can have both men desiring her. It may be an ego game with her. She may be cake eating.
I would not "tell her" that I was dropping the rope......I would just do it! It needs to be done "before" she makes any trips to see the OM. I believe since she is doing all this flirting and trying to keep your attention that there is "something" that drives her to do it, so dropping the rope sounds like the idea LRT. I believe it is the ONLY thing that might possibly turn her back for meeting with the OM. If you have been pulling back from her, then that is why she is trying for your attention. So, just think of the possiblities if you totally dropped the rope!
Sandi
Thanks Sandi-
I believe it is an ego game for her, and lonliness. I don't believe she really wants me, but she does want to keep me close and available. It gives her security. I am starting to have serious doubts as to her character. She claims to be totally in love with OM, yet I doubt she's being honest with him either. Does she tell him about all the time she spends with me? Puppy's law is "All cheaters lie, period!" I hate that my W has become this person. She's so vain and selfish.
The only way to know what she's really feeling toward me to to drop the rope and move on, and that's exactly what I'm doing, although at this point, I'm not sure if I really care a whole lot.
Hi futureunknown.
This is helping me, and I hope that it will help you...
Coach said "Imagine pulling with all your might on a rope tied to a elephant's leg that doesn't want to move. Tension on the rope, the elephant's getting torqued, and you are wasting all your energy and getting no results. The elephant just ain't moving. So why keep pulling on the rope?
The goal is to get the elephant to move. Release all the tension between you and the elephant. Catch your breathe and try something different. The elephant is not going to move just because you are trying with all your strength, want it to and would love it to. The elephant moves when it wants to. Drop the rope. Do something for yourself and see if the elephant gets interested enough to check it out. Be a elephant whisperer :D!
You do what is healthy and productive for you.
Hey future....
I've been on vacation--very much needed.
How are things now?
In terms of the A, I agree with the others....it will burn "hot and fast" and just implode....let it. In the meantime, maybe don't go dark....keep in touch with her as often as you can without being annoying, but make sure you definitely TAKE THE PRESSURE off. I think letting her see you and interact with you enough that she feels guilty and remorseful....I don't see that as a bad thing at all!!
Let her see how great you are because you are a great guy. No more fights...not more questions, just light--no brainer interaction, no stress. I'm working on that as hard as I can right now, easier said than done, but I bet you can!
stillloveshim-
Thanks for checking on me. I don't know what's going to happen with my W's A. My gut says it will die an ugly death, but I think it could take a year or two (or longer!). I am very dark now, mostly to help me fully detach. I just don't want to see or talk to my W right now.
I had been doing exactly as you said, no pressure, light fun interaction, a little harmless flirting. I didn't see that it made my W feel guilty or remorseful at all. It had the effect of casting me as her surrogate boyfriend while she pines for the OM she can't be with.
Well, it's hard to say what she's thinking/feeling.
The OM stuff will end. And when she falls apart, you will either want to help and be there or you won't.
But a year or longer? No way.
How is going dark working?
That's what our MC said when I saw her last week, "Stay out of her head." I guess a woman's mind is a complex place, and it's too easy for me to wrongly simplify. I know my W genuinely enjoys time with me, but I am definitely second in her mind right now, which is awfully hard to take. Do I stick with it and hope to climb back to number one? I have many advantages. I'm right here, and we have three kids together. The OM is so unattainable being so far away, and I know the attraction that gives. Do I want to deal with this?
Do you mean "No way", it won't last a year? Or do you mean "No way", don't bother waiting a year?
Well, I was dark, but I had to call her last night to discuss the custody arrangement in our separation agreement, and it didn't go well at all. We ended up having quite an argument, she hung up on me once, although I did call back and we did get back to a decent place before it was over. She was still pretty mad when she came by to pick up the kids this morning. I pulled a complete 180 and asked her out to dinner. The shock on her face was priceless. She looked simultaneously angry and touched. She said she's still mad, but she said maybe. She said give her a couple days. We'll see.
I mean No Way it won't last that long and you do have the very strong upper hand here. You can do this.
Hope is a dangerous thing. You know what they say about Pandora's box? After all the evil in the world was let out, last to come out was hope.
Thank you very much for the encouragement though. My heart is so weary, and wary. I just need to work on detaching better, being a great father, having a PMA, and living my life. I won't burn any bridges, and my W and I have an undeniable connection, even separate from the kids.
We'll see...
Hope is a dangerous thing, but you know what? I dont regret having hope for my M at all. No matter what happens in my M, it gives me some comfort to know that M is really important to me. And to know what I was willing to do to preserve to it. I tried everything, from turning into a quivering, hopeless sap, which didnt work at all, to DBing, which not only made me stronger through this, but I think that the principles are useful in a lot of situations in life.
I agree with SLH, this A wont last, they never do. You will recover from this much easier than she will. You keep doing the right thing, and when you look back you will have no regrets. She will be recovering from this for years longer than you will.
I dont think that you should be "allowing" this to go on. If she is doing something that you wouldnt approve of one of your friends doing, dont allow her to do it either. If she is being a bad friend, then dont be her friend. You are her H, and you have the kids to keep you two in touch. If she isnt friend material right now, keep it all business. Dont treat her any better than you would a aquaintance.
I really focused on not being the one responsible to doing any more damage to my M, so I think that its good that you are committing yourself to not burning any bridges.
I am feeling the connection to my H a lot right now. We are best friends, even after everything that has happened. Thats why we picked these people to spend the rest of our lives with. Hopefully with patience we can figure out how to foster these connections again.
My W agreed to go out to dinner with me this weekend. I have no idea how it's going to go.
She sent me a text message yesterday that she MIGHT be up for going out for a few beers Sunday afternoon. Last night I happened to be on a dinner cruise on a local lake for a business dinner and I sent her a message back that the lake was gorgeous and that in a different reality she would be there with me. I also said I'd agree to 50/50 custody and for her not to worry. I ALSO said that if we had food with the beer that would be dinner and offered a time and place. I was shocked I was able to squeeze so much into one text message.
She didn't send a reply right away, but she eventually did. She said ok to dinner and also said she hopes I realize that she grieves every single day for the loss of the life she hoped to have with me. I replied simply "Me too". I've been considering sending a follow up message, but I don't know. I think I should stay dim and see how the dinner goes.
Ok, here's something I just don't know about. My W has now indicated a couple times how she feels I don't really care about her because I haven't ever asked anything about her R with OM, which is of course very important to her. She told me our MC encouraged her to tell me everything, but that she couldn't do it, and then said "Why haven't you ever asked?" I said "I've never felt it was any of my business." She didn't have a reply to that. Even though it might rip my heart out, again, if I truly love her, should I ask her to tell me everything? I think she will tell me if I ask. Is it possible it could actually facilitate some healing? At least the walls would be down.
Sometimes I think my situation requires a somewhat different approach. If I follow MWD advice and track what has gotten results, it's actually been when I pursue a little bit that's worked. I know my W had a couple major dissatisfactions with our M. One, she didn't feel pursued as a woman, at least not in the way she wanted. I agree I failed with that. Two, she didn't feel our R was intimate enough emotionally, and I failed at that also. She is getting both in spades from OM.
For me to turn her back my way, I think I need to do both of those things, but they are both totally counter to DBing. That's my dilemma. I have pursued her a little bit in the past, and it did seem to get results. She likes the attention. Sure, it's cake eating at this point, but I really don't think she'll EVER give our R another chance unless she sees she can get what she was missing. I need to allow the cake eating for a while to show her things can be different. Usually with an A involved, the LBS wouldn't even have such a chance, but since the OM is so far away, my W is alone all the time, and so is receptive to such attention. I've never seen anyone else take that approach here. Am I deluding myself? Do I need to think "outside the box"?
Of course all this requires that I hang in there and keep hope alive.
I think it's a little sadistic of her to ask you why you haven't asked about her R with the OM. She's probably doing it to get your "approval" of it so she doesn't feel guilty any more. I mean she did say that she grieves at the loss of your future together.
Puh-lease! What kind of a response is that? I feel sad for myself even though I made the conscience decision to leave (because I was sad), tear your heart out and stomp on it, then jump in bed with another guy.
If chasing after her is what you think is going to work, then that's up to you. I would have as little contact with her as possible so that she isn't being validated for her behavior. I can see validating the things she saw as what went wrong in the M, but not validating (approving) her acting that way towards you.
The same goes for when the WAS asks to be friends after they've cheated on the LBS. I mean what planet are they from?
Ok, here's something I just don't know about. My W has now indicated a couple times how she feels I don't really care about her because I haven't ever asked anything about her R with OM, which is of course very important to her. She told me our MC encouraged her to tell me everything, but that she couldn't do it, and then said "Why haven't you ever asked?" I said "I've never felt it was any of my business." She didn't have a reply to that. Even though it might rip my heart out, again, if I truly love her, should I ask her to tell me everything? I think she will tell me if I ask. Is it possible it could actually facilitate some healing? At least the walls would be down.
I think the women can give you better perspective than me but here goes.
1. She wants to point out what she is needing.
2. She wants you to man up - she won't bring it up, you won't ask and it very much is your business.
3. I think she wants you to stand up for her. Set some boundaries and tell her that she is your W and that you want her to start acting that way. (This is you acting like a H.)
4. You can show her what she is missing without pursuing.
How:
She said ok to dinner and also said she hopes I realize that she grieves every single day for the loss of the life she hoped to have with me. I replied simply "Me too".
"Me I'm not grieving, I am working on becoming the best FutUnk I can. I realised some of my mistakes and am working on them for myself. If you give me the chance I will be the man you need."
Don't agree with her! Show her you are growing, thriving and living thru this stressful, difficult and painful period. Don't match her moods this is a opportunity to lead. You can handle it.
Strength and Honor
Coach
Go get your woman. Fight for her.
Just don't do anything you aren't proud of or you aren't willing to do for the rest of your life. For example, if she wants you to dress like a monkey and throw banana's at the neighbors--I say don't. Also, she wants you to clean the house everyday so it shines and she means EVERY DAY, well that's just not possible.
That's why I love this board. 2x4 whack when you need one!
I've also been perplexed as to why she would want me to ask. Talk about a selfish position. She has a death grip on this belief that she did nothing wrong. She didn't feel loved in our M, so she went elsewhere. The fact that she lied, used me, manipulated me, and betrayed me are all irrelevant details. I made it clear I would change myself in major ways to make our M what she wanted, but she chose to abandon our M and break up our family.
I know her friends are supporting her view that she is justified in doing what makes her happy. They see her with the affair "glow" and are envious. My behaviour hasn't exactly been consistent that I have a problem with what she's doing either, except that I never ask about it, and now she wants me to do that. Maybe she just wants that last bit of validation to let go of her guilt.
As for not having contact, our kids require us to have quite a bit of contact, but I can try to stay quite dim. This dinner we have planned will be our first time alone together since our separation five months ago. Maybe it's a mistake, but I'm curious how it'll go.
stuck808, I hate the idea of chasing after her. I agree with you 100%, but I'm at a loss for what else to do. I know she'll never come back unless she thinks there's real chance for things to be different. I need to let go and move on, but I want to leave her with the nagging feeling that maybe things really could be different.
Thank you Coach for jumping on here. I can see opinions here are as conflicted as in my own head! I'm really stuck as you can tell, and I think I could be at a crucial point. The fact that she agreed to have dinner with me after we had a big argument is important, I think. Although arguments can be damaging, at least there's some emotion between us.
1. She wants to point out what she is needing.
2. She wants you to man up - she won't bring it up, you won't ask and it very much is your business.
I agree with you. It's time this came out in the open. It doesn't have anything to do with validating what she did. It has to do with her wanting me to KNOW her.
3. I think she wants you to stand up for her. Set some boundaries and tell her that she is your W and that you want her to start acting that way. (This is you acting like a H.)
If this is true, it's definitely not at the surface. Maybe deep down she'd have respect for this declaration.
4. You can show her what she is missing without pursuing.
I mostly agree with this too. Pursuing or chasing implies I'm trying to catch her. I just need to declare to her my truth and make it clear I'll thrive regardless of what happens between us.
"Me I'm not grieving, I am working on becoming the best FutUnk I can. I realised some of my mistakes and am working on them for myself. If you give me the chance I will be the man you need."
Don't agree with her! Show her you are growing, thriving and living thru this stressful, difficult and painful period. Don't match her moods this is a opportunity to lead. You can handle it.
I agree, my simple response was insufficient. Fortunately, everything else I've done since our separation began, and even before that, gives the right message loud and clear. I haven't shown her my grieving. She's seen me be strong, and grab life by the horns. I think her respect for me is higher now than it has been in many years.
My gut tells me I need to fight for her. Me just validating my failures in our M is not enough. She's going to need to see me act in a fundamentally different way toward her, and I want to. I've been wanting to for years, but our M was stuck in an endless cycle of resentment, until this A and separation blasted it to smithereens. I have already shown her a very different side of me. She already commented that she likes how I'm changing. That's what's been working. I need to keep that up, and step it up. Will she get an ego boost that she has two men wanting her? Probably, but why does that bother me? My pride will be far more satisfied knowing that I did everything I could to save my M, rather than go dark and act like "If you don't want me, fine, I don't want you or need you either." That's been my attitude so far.
She hates that we are separated. Deep down she hates that she's having this A. She hates that our kids now split time between us. I need to show her a way out.
The dinner is done. If it wasn't for the fact that it was with my W who left me and is having an A, I would say it was an excellent date. We ended up having two separate dinners, since we sat and talked for over four hours.
I was totally non-reactive, and the great repore we've always had was present in all it's glory. We discussed our past, both positive and negative. We relived some of our most cherished memories, and discussed some of the ways we hurt each other. I owned my faults early in our R, which I know were key to the pain she carried throughout our M. There was no anger anywhere in our vicinity the whole time.
Unfortunately, my W is steadfast in her belief that our M was "more wrong than right", that she's much happier now, and that there's no going backward. I agreed backward is not an option, kind of implying that "forward" was undefined.
We grieved the fact that our kids are now relegated to seeing us each half the time. We discussed our plans for future holidays somewhat, which was the most painful part of the night.
She complimented me greatly on who I've become, and indicated that if we didn't have the history we have, she'd be very intrigued by me, and even intimidated, in a good way. She said I will be a force to be reckoned with when I decide to start dating, if I haven't already.
I complimented her on the changes she's made, and as per my declaration above, I didn't hold back in anything I wanted to say, including some fairly shocking things. She was initially uncomfortable with my frankness, but grew to enjoy it as the evening went on, and especially as we got a little drunk.
We did not talk about her A, other than the fact that she knows I am very hurt, and she doesn't know what the future holds with OM.
She has clearly moved on entirely, and there is no hope of reconciliation, at least not in the next couple years. After that, I don't care what anyone says, it's impossible to predict anything with any certainty. Regardless, I can't put my life on hold. I have to move on.
I am feeling considerable pain right now, as I face my future without my W, at least not as my W. The hard part is, and I discussed this with her, that the time we need to spend together due to the kids does make closure difficult. We left open ended how much we will be doing together moving forward. I am dreading the thought of even less time with my kids.
Rough night of sleep, and rough morning. Starting to get some perspective on things as the day goes on. I will be filled with regret regarding my M for a long time. My primary focus now has to be to forgive myself and let go of the past.
It's so ironic. We were finally able to really connect. In many ways, it was best date we've ever had. I didn't for a moment feel that wall that had existed between us for so much of our M.
Time to move on. I have to figure a way to detach from her while still co-parenting. It's not going to be easy...
Hi, I just wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten about you. Just been sick and out of touch, but plan to get caught up on your thread. Take care and I'll talk to you later.
Sandi
Thanks Sandi.
Another interesting little twist. Last night my W called to say goodnight to the kids, then wanted to talk with me. She asked how I was doing after our talk the night before. I said I was fine. I could hear noise in the background, and I asked where she was. She replied she was at this local bar getting some wings to go. This place is my main hangout with my friends, so I jokingly said "Hey, you're on MY turf!" She said "It's Monday night, no one you know is here. This place has the best wings, I've loved them ever since you first brought me here." Then I joked again and said "Now you've got me wanting wings." She said "Come and join me, I'll be happy to share mine with you." I was a little thrown by her frank invitation, but the whole thing was so friendly, I just said "Yeah, ok, I'll be over in a few." My parents are visiting me, so I was able to just leave the kids for a while. I didn't tell my parents where I was going, as they wouldn't have been happy about it.
I arrived at the place, and she was sitting on my regular stool. I said "This is just too weird." She laughed. I said "Do you know how many hours I've sat right where you are?" She replied "Bitching about me, I'm sure." Then I laughed. She said "I miss our friendship." I said "There are a lot of things I miss about you." I got a very touching look back from her. Then we talked about random stuff for a while, no R talk at all, and no talk about the past. I'm planning some international travel for my job, and she said she's living vicariously through me, so she wants me to tell her all about my trips. We talked about the kids some, of course, like how I have no idea how to fix up the girls hair, so they always look like tomboys when they're with me. She said just make sure it's brushed and it's fine.
She asked if I told my parents where I was going when I left. I smiled and said "No." She replied "Smart move." We were having such a good time, I said "I think we should plan a secret meeting every week that none of our family or friends know about." She laughed and said "They would kill us if they found out."
We finished our food and drinks, I offered a game of darts, but she said she had to get up early. So we wrapped it up, she paid, and we said our goodbyes. No hugs, nothing at all.
As opposed to how I felt after our previous dinner, I felt totally fine afterward, and feel fine now. I'm probably screwing up by letting her cake eat like this, but I miss her.
futureunknown,
You feel fine right now because you had a "fix." IE, pleasant time with her. Did her OM know she was with you? Your parents didn't know where you went. Kind of clandestine. A little meet up.
Just don't pin your hopes on anything right now. Give yourself time and continue to detach.
Yes, I agree, it was all weird and secret, and probably not a good idea. I'm sure she didn't tell OM about our meeting. I did have a feeling like "turnabout is fair play," as in I can play this game too.
On the one hand, I feel like I've joined the sleazy game I hate. On the other hand, she's my W, so why should I feel guilty about meeting up with her? These were the kind of things that were fun when we were dating.
No, I don't want to get my hopes up. I just got my confidence back, and I'm enjoying how she's responding to it. Not a great way to detach. Having the walls down around her is just so appealing. Keeping those walls up was exhausting.
I'm not deluding myself that this means a whole lot. She's lonely and was happy to have company. In many ways I feel pretty detached, as in I'm happy to have other plans that don't include her, but I can't deny my connection and attraction to her.
I think you are doing awesome. Why are you quitting? Because she said she's moving on, there's no chance of reconciling? You believe her? Just keep playing Joe Cool like you have been. I think you are completely confusing her.
That A will end. And you will be there to pick up the pieces or maybe you won't, but if you aren't, it's by your choice.
Don't quit yet. Just lay low and keep watching. Keep being you. Maybe the next time she asks you out, even that spontaneous, say no. Be apologetic and say no.
Thanks for the encouragement stillloveshim. Something inside of me agrees with you, but I know I'm risking a whole lot. If I could get to the point where I truly am okay with it either way, that's when the power will shift my way. Then the risk is essentially gone, and I can be myself fully and not be wincing at the thought of her saying something about OM or our getting a D. I think I'm close to being there. I'm not sure if spending time with her is helping or hurting.
Only you can judge that. Judge it by how you feel, not by her reactions. How do you feel, what do you see, take notes in your mind to think about later.
Hi Future! I've not posted on your thread before, but something about the 'clandestine date' made me wonder if you could pursue your wife as if she were single. How would you do that? Pretend, perhaps, that every guy is in competition for your W, not just OM. Isn't pursuit and seduction part of the dating 'game'? And you have a lot in your arsenal. It's almost unfair to the other guys.
Anyway, just another perspective for you to think about.
In my sitch, after about 6 months of trying to get him to end the EA and reattach, I just told my H that I was done (I really was) and actually do want the D and that, in fact, I was looking forward to being single again and in my own place with daughter. Then, we told the children, and daughter and I proceeded to discuss openly how we would decorate 'our' house, etc. H felt left out (this took a few months), ended it with OW on his own, and asked for reconciliation. That was 5 yrs ago. I won't say things have been great --- I still wonder if I did the right thing in reconciling --- but, my family is together, and I think he does try in his own way. But, it is harder to reconcile than it is to get them back. It's like a dog chasing a car --- if he catches it, what does he do with it?
Take care and good luck.
Thanks for the input BeingMe. You know what? I've been thinking the exact same thing. My W considers herself single now, no question about that. She has very strong feelings for OM, but she's realistic that their future is a long shot. She apparently enjoys my company, and misses my friendship, but is in no way ready right now to move our R forward. During our dinner, she briefly mentioned the reality of us "dating" other people, and she wasn't referring to OM.
During our dinner, my W expressed to me that she has transformed into the person she was always meant to be. She said she is healed from wounds that go all the way back to her childhood. I have to say, she is very different. She has a softness and vulnerability to her I always longed for in our M. She wasn't angry at me anymore. She said we were both "damaged goods" when we met, which is exactly right. She is very excited about her new self, and I can tell she wants to experience life from its perspective, and I think that includes seeing how men react to her.
I made it VERY CLEAR I was interested in her as a woman, left no doubt about that! The fact that she would invite me out the very next night is interesting. I think I make her feel desired now, which is one big way I failed during our M. Also, I think she finds me attractive again, six months ago she said in no uncertain terms that was gone in her. I also know she respects me more now than in many years. So I guess I'm making progress. I need to just accept this is going to be a long journey, and as stillloveshim says, just keep watching and waiting. I think for my own mental health, I need to see this as just one possible option for my future, and not hold back regarding other options too, as in dating other women. I think that's the only way I will be able to meet her "eye to eye" as this progesses.
Perhaps I do have some advantages over the other guys, but I also carry a LOT of baggage in. She will see other options as new and exciting for a while, until she finds out the grass isn't so green in her situation (40+ years old with 3 little kids).
I really need to get to the place where I'm confident and secure in myself regardless of what happens. I'm coming to the realization that's the key to this whole thing, no matter which way it goes. Can I hear a resounding "Duh!"?
As a small side note, I met her briefly at the grocery store this evening so she could say hi to the kids, as she agreed to let me keep them longer than usual due to my parents being here. She didn't say hi to me, and she would barely look me in the eye. There's the pullback I've been expecting!
Oh, bless your heart.....you are so confused and can't decide.....and the typical LBH. And.....your wife is typical MLC/WAW. In one post you have decided you can't hang on for another year of this and then your desire to have her back gets the best of you (especially after the late night secret date...
) and now, you just don't know which way to turn. I'm not making fun of you in case this post should sound that way. Not at all! I hate it for the LBS. I can't imagaine how horrible it must be for them.......well, I
try to imagaine....but I have not been in their place. Which brings me to what I want to say to you and also to my buddy "Stuck". Guys........you are talking as if you are dealing with "normal" women here. THEY ARE NOT......REPEAT.....NOT NORMAL. Why do you keep forgetting that? They have a "disease" called MLC and The Walk-Away Wife Syndrome. If you know from the depth of your soul that you cannot wait around for how ever long it takes for her to come out of the fog, then you need to move on. However, it is not necessary to get a D. You can drop the rope......get on with your life.....and yet not file for a D. You may even go as far as to get the D.......but you don't have to if you don't want to. I am not saying this about either of you or anybody in particular, but some do not get the difference in dropping the rope and getting a D and there IS a difference. Anyway, I don't have time to get into all of that. I just want you to be sure before you make any fast decisions. When I posted back a couple of weeks ago, you sounded very sure that you had no intentions of waiting on the side-lines until her A was over. Now.......you are wishy-washy. That's okay. You don't have to decide right now. Get some rest. Think about it. Pray about it. You've waited this long.....you can wait and think a few more days.
Before I go, I want to say this......and it is not to lay a guilt trip on you one bit b/c I have right out told some people that they need to move on and leave the S alone (but usually there was something different that a MLC/WAW thing). Anyway, if you really could look at this as a disease.......what would you do? If the disease caused her to act and think like a person completely foreign to who she always was.......what would you do? Understand this please......in no way am I making excuses and saying it is acceptable and fine to have an PA or EA. It is wrong. It is sin......period. That is why it is so much more complicated that dealing with a S who has a psycological problem. B/c it hits the LBS so very, very personal. Hearts are broken, lives torn apart, anger and bitterness is born, respect and self-esteem is lost.......on and on we could expound on this subject. If it weren't for all these dang "emotions" getting in the way so we could just be able to use our normal minds to think we might......well......But the emotions
are there....all raw and bleeding. The decision as to what you can do is very personal and in the end.....we can say a lot of stuff, but you are the one that has to live with that decision.....you and of course the children. Ahhhh.......the guilt trip. You should recognize it well by now, huh? That is not what this is about. As a former wayward wife, who Puppy says lies and cheats, I feel almost vulnerable to you in asking you to just re-think the outcome. How valuable is this lady to you? I think I know how valuable she was in the past......for now you may not be too sure......and as you said, we can't predict the future. At first, I agreed with you and thought that dropping the rope was probably the best way to deal with this stitch, but after what has happened, I think you do have a strong chance in drawing her back.......but.....BUT, it would take time and that is what you are having a problem with......TIME. You don't want to feel that you have wasted time waiting for her and then it not happen. But then I have to ask again......how valuable is she?
She is treating you (outside of actually having a PA) better than I treated my H. Everything else sounds about the same. I didn't share with my friends what was going on, but the Internet stuff was the same. I could not stand to be in the same house when my H was here! She seems like she adores you. I can see there is attraction on her part just by what you post. That is so much more than what I had to work with. We were in such a mess at Sandi's place. But, my H stayed. He did not support what I did by any means! But, he stayed. I slowly begin to see the OM and what was "really" happening and I decided it was not worth my family's love and respect and 40 years of M to have a few moments with the OM. My fantasy of a future with him was fed to me from him just to have his needs fulfilled. But when he saw he was not getting me to a motel as fast as he wanted.....I could tell that he would rotate from woman to woman until he finally phased me out. She will discover that about her OM also. Her fantasy is different from mine. Well, I am not really saying anything new. Just had a heavy heart readying your pain. I felt that I was too quick in agreeing with you about moving on and wanted to encourage you to think about it and the possibility that since you two have the connection with each other......I don't know why a friendship could not be established and go from there. Some may think, "Why would a man want to have a friendship with the woman who cheated on him and lied to him?" It always goes back to how valuable is she to you? Is she worth it in spite of what she's done? If not, then you do need to move on. If you think she might be, why not hang on a while longer and give it a few baby steps and see where it goes. Could you be any worse off? Yes, you are afraid of the "hopes" and getting more hurt. I know that. But is it worth it to try?
If you can get past the A and the state of mind she is in at the present and consentrate on starting a new R and maybe even a M......then it must start with a small friendship and baby step it from there. If you know you can't and won't get past what she's done, then move on and set her free b/c she doesn't need you to be there. If you can't forgive her and you can't put the OM out of the picture and realize you got the prize.....then move on and let her be free. It takes a very big man......a strong man......one full of much love to hang on and give it another try before he throws in the towell.
I see the ball being in your court now. You are probably thinking it is in hers b/c she needs to do this and that and.......but it is in your court. Just give it some time. Get some rest.
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound.....that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now I'm found; was blind but now I see.
God bless and keep you.
Love,
Sandi
Hi Sandi, I have just read your above response and it really touched me and helped. Made a lot of sense.
My thread is
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1774134#Post1774134I have read your thoughts over the last few months, I was wondering whether you could offer any advice?
Sorry to come in left of centre to your thread Future; I do hope you find peace and travel along the path that is best for you.We are all trying to do that here in the best way we know how.
Sandi-
Wow. Your post hit home. Hard.
Thank you so much for the time and thought you put into my life.
I AM confused, and I CAN'T decide. My friends keep asking me "What do you want?", and I keep telling them "I don't know, and I don't think I need to know yet!" I've been trying to have the strategy you laid out Sandi. I want to see if my W and I could at least take some steps toward something new and see how it feels before I decide anything. What's wrong with that? Sometimes the attitude on the board here, and with my friends and family, is that this will only be resolved if my W comes crashing down, then comes back to me, begging for forgiveness. I don't see that happening. They don't like me "pursuing" her, because they don't think she deserves it, or me. Maybe she doesn't.
Only she and I know where this all came from. She knows she was wrong to do what she did, but she knows, and I know, that something was fundamentally missing from our M. Although part of me likes to think we could have made our way through it from within our M, if I am honest with myself, I have to face the truth that this probably was the only way to throw us far enough away from each other to allow us to see each other with truly new eyes. You can tell from my posts that we have a connection, we have since almost the moment we met. Our recent time together has shown me that her A and our separation have not severed that connection. Even through the MLC/WAW fog, that line is there.
It means very much to me for you to say she seems like she adores me. I can feel it coming from her, but she fights it now. Part of her hates it. She knows that feeling she has toward me has led her to so much pain and lonliness. She wants an intense love, whereas ours was closeness, trust, friendship. The thing is, I wanted that intense love too. We were just so mired in our life responsibilities, kids, house, jobs, etc, that there was so little time and energy left to put towards making each other feel truly special. My HUGE mistake was just giving in to that, and not fighting against it. Now she's got this OM, where every one of their interactions is essentially a fantasy vacation. They share no responsibilities. I'm sure it's fun and exciting, but I wonder if she's starting to feel its hollowness, as compared to our connection, which is twisted, tied, strained, and can feel restrictive, but is based on real sharing of life. That's why I am making a big effort to add this tone of intensity to our interactions now. I look deep into her eyes all the time when I talk with her. I say what I'm thinking. I don't hold back, regardless of what those thoughts are ;-). I want her to know she can have everything we used to have, PLUS a new intimacy and intensity. I was so pleased with myself when she expressed she would be intimidated by me were we to start dating romantically. Now that's the kind of change I'm talking about!
So, your big questions. How valuable is she to me? Very. Am I willing to hang in for a while longer? Yes. How long? I'm not sure. Could I get past the A? If she were to truly give herself back to me, yes.
Not quite sure how the ball is in my court, but I'll try to see it that way. "Get some rest"... good advice! I have prayed almost every day about my situation, and I'll continue to do so.
By the way, the song "Amazing Grace" chokes me up EVERY time I hear it.
Thank you again Sandi for your thoughtful advice.
My friends keep asking me "What do you want?", and I keep telling them "I don't know, and I don't think I need to know yet!"
You are right......you DO NOT need to make any rash decisions now. I don't understand why people get into such a big hurry about those things. Maybe b/c we live in such a fast paced world and feel the urgency to move quickly. However, too many fatal mistakes have been made by quick decisions. She doesn't know what she wants. She MAY THINK she does......but she's still in that confused state of mind. You are not sure of what you want b/c of how she has yanked you around and messed with your heart & mind. To take it a day at a time and be willing to wait is a big deal. It takes strength to do that! IMHO, the easy way out is to run away and leave it. People see it as escaping the pain, but I think the pain only follows the person wherever they go. Tell your friends not to push you and that you will make up your own mind in your own time.
Sometimes the attitude on the board here, and with my friends and family, is that this will only be resolved if my W comes crashing down, then comes back to me, begging for forgiveness.
Since my "crises" was not exactly like a lot of others, maybe I should not offer my opinion, but you know me......
I can see her coming with the crash, but to go running back and begging for your forgiveness may or may not happen. I did not feel remorse for a very long time and even though I told my H that I did not want to "hurt" him........in my heart I tried to blame him for what I had done. It took a great deal of time and actually praying for God to help me feel repentent of my wrong doing before I could honestly show my H my sincere regret. I am not sure why that is a huge part of the MLC, but from what I have read, most of the MLC'ers have a real problem with asking for forgiveness. What you have to ask yourself is if you could/can forgive her even if she never asks you? Whether the two of you get together or not, I hope for your sake you are able to find forgiveness b/c it is will free you up and allow peace to reign in you. Otherwise, it will be like a cancer eating away at you the rest of your life and leave you a bitter old man. You don't want to live life like that!
she knows, and I know, that something was fundamentally missing from our M.
That is so true in "most" cases. I just told another poster that it is not right to blame the LBS for the other one's MLC and I still believe that. However, I do believe that it usually takes a breakdown in a MR to lead to the WAS syndrome. It certainly does not help when a person is headed for a MLC, but I think there are some great people out there who were totally unaware of anything wrong (maybe they were blinded?) in the MR when their S fell head first into MLC. My H trusted me with his life. That was the one thing that we both had that was treasured......our trust in each other. That was why I got by with the secret EA as long as I did before I was caugt......and then it was by accident. He just could not believe I would ever betray him like that! Neither did I. When I look back at all the things that took years to take place.....and see them line up hitting me over and over.....I could easily "blame" all of that and say it was not "my fault" but that would be a cop-out. I take full responsibility for my actions. I knew what I was doing.....even if I was in denial at first and maybe even blind to my own stupidity. Sure my H failed. That is why I was so angry when he said he had never done anything wrong! That is why it took me so long to have a desire to try to stay in my M for the "right" reasons. But the bottom line is that it was my actions that almost ended a 40+ year M.
I have to face the truth that this probably was the only way to throw us far enough away from each other to allow us to see each other with truly new eyes
Maybe that is what Rob meant in his statement to Stuck. I don't agree that MLC is good! But, I see what you are saying, too. Sometimes, it does take something tragic to wake us up. As humans, we have better hind-sight than fore-sight and we tend to want what we think we've lost. We are strange
creatures!
You can tell from my posts that we have a connection, we have since almost the moment we met. Our recent time together has shown me that her A and our separation have not severed that connection. Even through the MLC/WAW fog, that line is there.
That is why I think there is a great chance for healing over this. There was a sexual attraction from the beginning and it is still there. As long as that exists.......man, you have so much going for you! Unfortunately, I did not have that for my H. It is awfully hard to make it work when that is not in the picture.
She wants an intense love, whereas ours was closeness, trust, friendship. The thing is, I wanted that intense love too. We were just so mired in our life
That intense love was so much a part of my fantasy. B/c I felt that I had missed out on a lot of sexual excitment and had known only one man intimately......I wanted to experience have some type of magic, volcanic, type of sex/love/affair. But it was only a fantasy. The OM only wanted the sex and he was willing to tell me anything I wanted to hear to get me into a motel with him. He was very talented in his way of words. He probably was very experienced at that! I am so thankful that it never reached the PA level.
Every couple/family these days seem to get lost easily in the hustle and bustle of life. I see couple running their legs off with their individual careers and getting the kids off to ball games or other activities......and it all sounds good, but in reality, I think it is killing the family unit. It certainly is doing a number on the MR b/c the couple has not "time" for each other. When they are together, they are so exhausted and stressed about "life".......it takes away from their R with each other. Maybe b/c I grew up in a different era where things were not so fast paced and I was able to see another generation and lived a different lifestyle......and now I have lived long enough to observe my children's generation and what it is doing to them. Sadly, it is affecting the "baby-boomers" too. I am seeing so many of my generation that have been M for decades and then D. Seems as if nobody gets by free of charge these days.
Now she's got this OM, where every one of their interactions is essentially a fantasy vacation. They share no responsibilities. I'm sure it's fun and exciting, but I wonder if she's starting to feel its hollowness, as compared to our connection,
Yes, it was a need/desire that sent her "looking" and her own fantasy of the other side of the fense. You hit the nail on the head about the "no responsibility" and that is why so many 2nd marriages do not work. Especially when they were built on an affair. Reality hits them and then all the "fun" leaves the R and they discover they are in the exact same M they left.......only it is worse this time around b/c they don't actually "love" the one they are M to then like the one the left.
Oh, I hope she will begin to see the hollowness in that R. If she can see through the fog just a little bit, she'll know she's pushing aside a wonderful man and life. Your part in this is hard. Your part would be to "wait" and give the A with OM time to fizzle out.
I grew up under the influence that an A was the all time "deal breaker" in any M. I have learned, however, that it does not HAVE to be. It all depends upon the love that has not been totally killed out. Love may take a severe beating and almost smothered out, but if there is a little spark.....(like the two of you have).....it can start to build to a healty flame and with work.....a bon-fire can begin. (Do you think I would make a good writer?
......just kidding) I get to sounding rather dramatic at times....lol.
Just be careful about pursuing. It is not a matter of her being worth pursuing......it is how she will re-act to it. I know with me, the more my H pursued me, the worse I got. I use to want him to do that in our earlier years, but after I was in my crises......it worked in an opposite way. So, continue to use your sex appeal, be flirty, friendly, fun, and all those things, but remember that a WAW is like a bird ready to take flight at the least bit of pressure.
Better go and make myself productive around here. Hope you have a great weekend. Maybe I will get to talk to you before long.
Sandi
You are not sure of what you want b/c of how she has yanked you around and messed with your heart & mind. To take it a day at a time and be willing to wait is a big deal. It takes strength to do that!
Exactly how I feel. It does take strength, but just like building muscles, the more I do it, the stronger I feel. I am soooo much stronger than I was a year ago. Quite amazing actually!
I really have a hard time seeing her ever being truly remorseful over this. She is so convinced it was such a good thing, which is brutal on me, I have to say. However, I'm already well on my way to forgiving her. I wouldn't be able to act the way I do around her unless I was. I don't want to carry so much anger around in me. If she does come back, and if I feel it is genuine, I think I could forgive her and be happy. I she is truly gone, then I'm already on my way to a new life. I won't let this hold me back, and forgiveness is a big part of being free.
I think my W's affair with OM is different than yours was Sandi. She knew him when they were teenagers when she lived in this other country, and he was totally in love with her, but she wasn't interested. Because of that past, she trusts his feelings for her are genuine, and he is smitten to finally get what he wanted so long ago. Of course it is still so much fantasy, as what I said is still true. They share no responsibilities, and they have little realistic chance of a future together. He has said he won't move here, and she won't leave the kids. Still, she professes to love him. Meanwhile, she flirts with me and invites me out for a secret meet up. What the ??????
Every couple/family these days seem to get lost easily in the hustle and bustle of life. I see couple running their legs off with their individual careers and getting the kids off to ball games or other activities......and it all sounds good, but in reality, I think it is killing the family unit. It certainly is doing a number on the MR b/c the couple has not "time" for each other. When they are together, they are so exhausted and stressed about "life".......it takes away from their R with each other.
I agree with you 100%. I think the American family culture has seriously compromised the strength of the M in favor of the kids. Not quite sure why.
Oh, I hope she will begin to see the hollowness in that R. If she can see through the fog just a little bit, she'll know she's pushing aside a wonderful man and life. Your part in this is hard. Your part would be to "wait" and give the A with OM time to fizzle out.
I have to admit, the advice FightingFit is giving on the Infidelity forum is compelling. If my W does have as much of a connection to me as I think she does, would a sincere ultimatum of either OM or me have a chance of working? And I mean a SERIOUS ultimatum, like breaking off all communication, and changing our co-parenting arrangement to one of true separate custody, where she has no involvement in my time with the kids, and vice versa. Or am I best slow playing this, like I have been all along? My gut says to slow play, and not just as a strategy. I've come to know that I don't want my W to come back to me out of fear. Regardless of what's happened so far, I want her to come back because she has fixed something inside herself, she can see that I've fixed myself, and that we really could have a totally new, much better R. I want her to come back excited about NEW possibilities. I believe she needs to experience me differently for enough time to trust that the changes are real before she would allow herself to take a chance.
Just be careful about pursuing. It is not a matter of her being worth pursuing......it is how she will re-act to it. I know with me, the more my H pursued me, the worse I got. I use to want him to do that in our earlier years, but after I was in my crises......it worked in an opposite way. So, continue to use your sex appeal, be flirty, friendly, fun, and all those things, but remember that a WAW is like a bird ready to take flight at the least bit of pressure.
I will be careful, and I think maybe I have overdone it a bit, so I'll pull back now. I was so excited to hit her right between the eyes with my confident declarations of my desire for her, a big 180 for me. I now want to give her time to reflect on what she saw in me. I want a little voice inside her to start whispering "You could have it all", when she's stuck talking with OM on the phone or over the Internet. It felt very good when she pursued me back a little bit with the secret meet up. Why would my W invite me out after I made such a clear declaration of my desire for her, if she had none for me? Usually in such a lopsided situation, the one who is desired feels uncomfortable around the other. Uncomfortable is not exactly how I'd describe her attitude toward me that night!
I'll let things sit for a while now. I was supposed to go to my son's little league game tonight, which is always good time for her and I to hang out and talk and flirt, but I have a basketball game tonight so I texted her and told her I wouldn't be there. She texted back "Too bad. Good luck!"
As a small side note, I met her briefly at the grocery store this evening so she could say hi to the kids, as she agreed to let me keep them longer than usual due to my parents being here. She didn't say hi to me, and she would barely look me in the eye. There's the pullback I've been expecting!
Hi Future...I have been reading your thread tonight, and I just wanted to offer my support
You seem like you are doing extremely well, and I see/feel alot of myself in you especially re: your "gut" feeling that you should be fighting for your marriage. And that you know in your heart that a connection is still there. I don't know, maybe everyone here feels this way...but even though the low parts of the rollercoaster do a number on my confidence in this, the high points make me believe that there is no way my H can't be feeling the same thing. Anyway I got a post from AliveandKicking in regards to something I said about wondering why my H was doing this to me...and me wondering why I was such a "bad" person to be around, (feeling little confidence right now can you tell??!), etc. I thought it was appropriate to interject here with your sitch and when I read that she didn't look at you and pulled back when you met her at the grocery store..alive and kicking wrote this to me....
"You are not bad to be around, he can't differentiate and define himself with you...he only knows how to be the version of him that was married to you when you're around. Now, he wants to be someone else in a way...or is at least exploring. It is an identity crisis of sorts."
I just thought this made alot of sense and it applies here IMO. She wants to feel that fire with you OUTSIDE of your marriage, hence the date over wings. Do you think she didn't plan that scenario out?? She knows you go there, she knows you love those wings and she called you. It was secretive, exciting, and it made her feel good...Once the kids are there, it is the version of you both that she is trying to avoid, for whatever reason. Interesting, and worth exploring more, I think. Is it possible that at some point, these things can be bridged together? And that if you keep doing what is working...and let it take the time it needs to, that it will NATURALLY bridge itself?
Just a thought and I wanted to say that I think you are on the right track...no matter the outcome! You seem like a great guy!
My H's EA was also with an old flame from school, years ago. There must be lots of these kinds of A's since people can find old schoolmates, etc. Sucks, because we LBS's are fighting against a younger image of a time where they were young before all the responsibilities.
Oh well!
I think you're on the right track. Just play it cool. And I like that you're already on your way to forgiving ... that was a hard one for me.
Take care.
nicoles-
Thanks for your advice and support. I seem to have a lot of the women on the board rooting for me! I'm really touched.
I know what you mean about the confidence thing. Although I'm doing better and better, my confidence still goes up and down. The highs and lows keep getting higher though. Try to remember you are not defined by how your H sees you, or acts around you. It's very hard, I know, but it is true.
That is a very insightful idea you offer. It does make sense. We were married for a long time, and we got very "regimented" in our roles and attitudes towards each other. I'm exploring being someone else around my W, but I'm really motivated to do it, that's my goal. She may only now be feeling that pull away from our old roles into something new. Maybe it was her seeing me do it that brought it out in her.
I never thought about it in such obvious terms, but absolutely, there is WAY more spark between us when the kids aren't around. Three little kids tend to dominate any situation they are in, and we're stuck in our roles managing them as mommy and daddy. It was our failure to take time to shed those roles that led us to where we are. When I approached my W at the grocery store, the kids all ran up to her and she was totally in mommy role. It makes sense that she would associate that with our old roles in our M, and get very distant from me.
One more thing I forgot to mention before. The bar where we met that night has another meaning. Last year when we were really struggling to see if we could get our M into a better place, we were trying to get some time alone away from the kids. One of the times we went out just the two of us was when we went to that bar and got beer and wings. We had a great time, better than we had had in a long time, and we felt that little spark. I didn't know it at the time, but she had already started her EA with OM, so the deck was very stacked against me, and no matter what I did I could not get that spark to grow into a flame. However, last fall when my W told me she was leaving, and we talked over many things, one of the things I said was that I was sad because I felt like we were friends again after a long time of not feeling that way, and now she wants to leave. She agreed we were friends again, and she said it was that night at the bar when we found our friendship again.
You do make a good case that she planned that night. I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure. I do think it's meaningful that she picked that place to go that night, and she invited me to meet her there.
She texted me first thing this morning asking how my basketball game went, which was nice. I'm encouraged knowing she's thinking about me. It's a beautiful day here, and I'm struggling wondering what she and the kids are doing. My parents have left, and the house feels particularly empty. Got work to do around the house, going for a run later with a friend, and got plans for tonight. Life goes on.
BeingMe-
I have to admit, for a while I was hating the Internet, as I saw it as the tool that took my W away from me. Of course this board wouldn't exist without the Internet either, and this board is awesome, so I have to realize it is just what it is, and people can use it for good things or bad.
Several of the women here on the board are saying the same thing, that I'm doing the right thing by "playing it cool", but sometimes I wonder. Sometimes I try to look at it from her side. She knows what she did, she knows she's with OM. She knows she betrayed me, abandoned our M, and took my kids from me half the time. Yet she sees with me with a great attitude, being fun and flirty. Does she wonder "What's up with this guy? Doesn't he have any self respect? Why doesn't he hate me? He should hate me. Anyone with self respect would hate me." What am I saying about myself that I am continuing to extend myself to her, and offer her my company, my humor, my conversation, my desire?
Future...
I am glad you've got plans for tonight, good for you and GAL!!! Well, I was out and about all day and evening with the kids, so here I am tonight!
Anyway... I think we all get regimented in our roles as H/W, Mommy and Daddy. It takes motivation for people to do something about it. I think for my H in particular, he didn't have the skills to break out of it in a healthy, normal "keep my family together at any cost" type of way and frankly, neither did I. I would say that I have not been happy for awhile in the R either...but that I always just thought we would get it together one day, and that day has come in the form of him leaving! I look to the future and hope that this will be a blessing in disguise and I can tell from reading MANY posts that that is how alot of these sitch's turn out.
In your sitch, I just think that you are doing the right things and she is responding so why change. FOR NOW. I think what you described of how she might be "seeing" you is partially the "cake eating" if you will. I mean, you are doing A FABULOUS JOB working on yourself...and I don't think you will let her walk all over you or take advantage. I think you will know when it is cake eating and you will come to the point where you will not allow it. Hopefully that made sense.
As for the bar sitch...the fact that there is a deeper meaning is only more reason for me to think that even if she didn't PLAN the meeting with you consciously, it was definately subconscious. Which to me sounds silly, so the only option is she knew what she was doing there!!! As far as DBing goes...if she starts to invite you alot of places...maybe turn one invite down. Ignite that flame of curiosity!!!!!!!!
Wishing you well.........
I look to the future and hope that this will be a blessing in disguise and I can tell from reading MANY posts that that is how alot of these sitch's turn out.
I'm hoping the very same thing. I'm optimistic it will work out that way.
Well, my W left me a voice mail this evening inviting me to go have ice cream with her and kids, but I was running when the message came in, so by the time I saw it, it was already too late. I didn't respond. Let her wonder where I was tonight!
So I picked up my kids tonight, and my daughter sadly says "Daddy, we left you a message inviting you to come out for ice cream, but you didn't come." Who else here thinks it's BS for my W to be telling the kids she's inviting me before she even knows if I got the invite? She is a master at making me look like the bad guy, when I didn't even want any of this!!!
Well, that is possible. It is also possible that the kids wanted you to come. Happens to me sometimes. It actually doesn't make you look like the bad guy IMO. You have a life and it is ok for them to know that too.
But, I know how you feel.
Yeah, I suppose I could be overreacting. The problem is, my W and I have really poor boundaries around this kind of thing. That has led to much of the time we spend together, but it also can lead to things like this. I'm trying to maintain my PMA, but when my kids express regret about my not being with them, that's when I buckle. :-(
I'm so torn about this whole boundaries thing. If I insist on strict boundaries, then I'm forcing my W to fully live with the consequences of her actions, but I also lose out on quality time with my kids. I wouldn't wish this choice on anyone!
Does she wonder "What's up with this guy? Doesn't he have any self respect? Why doesn't he hate me? He should hate me. Anyone with self respect would hate me." What am I saying about myself that I am continuing to extend myself to her, and offer her my company, my humor, my conversation, my desire?
It all goes back to our human nature. It is naturally more "fun" with the teasing, etc., when not married. For one thing, when we are in a MR, then we know that we can always go to bed and it is all legal....LOL. Some people say that takes all the fun out of a R. I don't know, but I do think that being single and the dating/flirting stuff appeals to a lot of women. I think your W is probably one of those women who likes what does not come so easily. One reason she is enticed with the OM from the past is that she knows it should be "hands-off" and she wonders what "could have been", etc. When both of you were in the bar flirting, etc., it was fun and she found you attractive. She probably knew that nothing would be done about it right then (like having sex) and even if it was, she would still have the "unmarried" feelings tied to it. May not make much sense to men in how women think along these lines....and it's even hard for me to explain.
Being attracted to each other is a good sign that this stitch can be turned around. Taking it slowly is the right way to go. As far as her wondering about your self-respect, she isn't really thinking in terms like that.
Talk to you later,
Sandi
As far as her wondering about your self-respect, she isn't really thinking in terms like that.
That's what my gut has been telling me and that's sure what it feels like. So she is perceiving me as kind of a new single prospect?
We have not in many many years had such a just plain fun, close, and carefree conversation as we did that night at the bar. What was shocking to me was how it showed by contrast how deadlocked we had gotten in our M. Our conversations in our M had gotten so practical, discussing various issues about our life, house, kids, etc. I could feel a subtle bad vibe in our interactions back then, like we were just so bored, so frustrated, so defeated. That feeling was gone the other night. It felt much more like back when we were dating, and we were just enjoying each other's company.
Yeah, I suppose I could be overreacting. The problem is, my W and I have really poor boundaries around this kind of thing. That has led to much of the time we spend together, but it also can lead to things like this. I'm trying to maintain my PMA, but when my kids express regret about my not being with them, that's when I buckle. :-(
I'm so torn about this whole boundaries thing. If I insist on strict boundaries, then I'm forcing my W to fully live with the consequences of her actions, but I also lose out on quality time with my kids. I wouldn't wish this choice on anyone!
[quote=sandi2
It all goes back to our human nature. It is naturally more "fun" with the teasing, etc., when not married. For one thing, when we are in a MR, then we know that we can always go to bed and it is all legal....LOL. Some people say that takes all the fun out of a R. I don't know, but I do think that being single and the dating/flirting stuff appeals to a lot of women. I think your W is probably one of those women who likes what does not come so easily. One reason she is enticed with the OM from the past is that she knows it should be "hands-off" and she wonders what "could have been", etc. When both of you were in the bar flirting, etc., it was fun and she found you attractive. She probably knew that nothing would be done about it right then (like having sex) and even if it was, she would still have the "unmarried" feelings tied to it. May not make much sense to men in how women think along these lines....and it's even hard for me to explain.
Being attracted to each other is a good sign that this stitch can be turned around. Taking it slowly is the right way to go. As far as her wondering about your self-respect, she isn't really thinking in terms like that.
Talk to you later,
Sandi
[/quote]
Sandi2-
Do you think this is true of a any WAW/MLCer, or women in general? I ask this because I have always felt the opposite. Of course I would flirt if I went out and I liked that attention, but the thought of another man actually touching me or persuing anything more...made my stomach turn and still does. Even when my H didn't treat me well. I just always felt that the legal part and the fact that he would always be there in bed WAS the enticing part!!! Silly me, I sorta feel dumb for that now.
Sorry for the mini-hijack!!!
P.S. Future....12 pages, you are catching up!!
I just always felt that the legal part and the fact that he would always be there in bed WAS the enticing part!!! Silly me, I sorta feel dumb for that now.
Don't feel dumb for that. That'a a good thing. The trick is to find ways to keep that fire burning even when settled into "knowing" they'll always be there. I failed in that regard. I was going to say 'we' failed, but I have to face the truth. My W did try, I can remember her trying, and I just didn't embrace my part in it. I was too stressed, too tired, and there were too many other issues between us (money, house, chores, etc). I left her feeling like she was fighting that battle alone. By the time I realized what I needed to do, she was already checking out. That regret is the primary source of my ongoing pain now. She was trying, and I left her feeling abandoned.
That's why, DBing be dam*ed, I'm going to show her I can fan the flames too. Just don't know if she'll let me. She's got OM to do that now :-(
She does at least seem to still notice the little spark we still have :-) Sandi thinks that might be enough, given enough time.
It is kind of like having sex when/where you could be caught. It heightens the excitement.
I believe that both of you got so bogged down in everyday burdens of "life" that it took all the fun out of things between you. It all becomes about work, kids, material things, and little time for intimacy. If the only time you have for each other is after the kids are in bed and both of you are exhausted from the activities that day.....chances are that not many "new" activities are going to be added to the menu that night. Things get stale and dull and that is why a lot of spouse opt to walk away. They was excitement in their lives. Only you know if that describes your case or not, but something sure seem to turn her on when she saw you. Just the thought that you were "suppose" to be hands-off since the two of your were separated might have been exciting for her. It just works like that for some people. Whatever they consider to be "taboo", excites them.
Talk to you later,
Sandi
Ok, so I got pretty wound up after the dinner and secret date last week. Now nothing. She's back to nearly no contact, and was quite standoff-ish when I picked up the kids.
It's clear to me that us spending time alone together is the magic that builds on the connection between us. I don't want to pursue, but there just aren't really any opportunities for us to be alone. The baseball games are ok, we're sort of alone, but it doesn't have the intensity we had sitting in that bar just the two of us. Should I eventually ask her out? Should I wait for her to ask me? I'd rather do the latter, as then she's the pursuer, but I don't know if she will. How long should I wait? She did the asking last time though, sort of, so is it my turn? What kind of time frame should I be shooting for? Wait another week or two? I feel kind of pathetic asking all this. If she was just a normal woman I was interested in, I'd know what to do, but as Sandi very LOUDLY pointed out, she is NOT a normal woman. I think time is my friend. I should just bide my time and wait for an opportunity, like I did last time. I have to accept that NOTHING is going to happen fast.
Unfortunately, I think she has plans to meet up with OM at some point soon. I don't really know the details, and I don't want to snoop. Like others have said here, I think I should just treat her like a single woman, see if she wants to spend time with me, and ignore OM.
I have to admit, practically every baby step I've worked toward has been successful.
I wanted her to respect me again. Check.
I wanted her to be attracted to me again. Check.
I wanted her to start flirting with me. Check.
I wanted her to ask me out. Check.
I wanted to go out just the two of us and validate that the connection is still there. Check.
I wanted to increase physical contact between us. Check. We're always touching each other in non-sexual ways now.
I have a big step in mind that is a real long shot. She's going to take the kids to visit her brother's family at the end of July. We've gone down there many times before, and we always have a great time. I'd love to be invited to go along. Man, that's a long shot. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, and we'll see. That would be a very bold move on her part. I'm not getting my hopes up.
Yeah...it can be a let down when it is a quiet week and nothing to look forward to. That is the reason why patience is so important but SO difficult when you are in the think of it all!!
What makes you think she is going to hook up with OM soon?
You are better off than me with your baby steps/goals. So far I have only achieved one, which was the H finally expressed emotion/sadness to me...he was just so cold and distant in the very beginning. So, good for you. I would not ignore or discount the importance of this. It is great! You have time to work on your next goal...don't give it up even if you think it is a long shot.
And also, you never know what might happen tomorrow. It is the way it goes. I know you didn't expect her to invite you to the bar that night...
I would give it time before you ask her out. Be a little more mysterious if you can first. She may be more likely to say yes when the time is right. Anyway, sounds like you are just venting here, and by the time you finish your post you are more sure of what to do. That is what this board is for so I would trust your own instincts and you will project your confindence at the same time.
Now...lemme try to follow my own advice!!!!!!
I thought she said something weird about the fourth of July weekend, like she was trying to make sure I had the kids or something. She's been very evasive discussing the whole week leading up to the fourth of July, so I can only assume she's planning on meeting OM somewhere, or worse, that OM is coming here. I really can't afford to obsess about it. It'll drive me crazy. I've detached quite a bit, but I have more to go.
She is definitely planning on travelling to see OM in late August. When we discussed our schedules for the summer, and I told her I was going to take the kids to visit my parents in late August, she immediately made plans to go see OM over that week. Makes me ambivalent about going anywhere, but I won't be a hostage to this whole situation. I'm going to live my life, regardless of whatever she and OM are doing. However, if she continues to see OM, I might have to go darker, harden up the boundaries, and move on for my own sanity.
I've seen this happen a lot. The WAS tests the waters for whatever reason. It may happen often before any possibility of reconciliation. I think the best thing to do is to not contact her (except for business or children) and let her be the one to initiate. You could try inviting her out for coffee or something in a couple of weeks time, but be prepared for rejection. These quiet times is when GAL pays out. You get to still have fun while waiting.
One of the things that my H responded to was that I would not be his friend if we D'ed. He was so shocked that he would lose me completely, except as a co-parent. This was in a conversation brought up by him, so don't go and blab it out, if at all. But, a lot of LBS's wonder this, especially if there is still a good friendship going on, like yours. I decided I could not be his friend, if he left his family and D'ed me. I couldn't be a friend to someone who did that to anyone. This started him thinking. But, of course, we all have to make our own choices based on their own reality, and your children are younger than ours was. Still, this is something to think about --- she might be hoping to have you as a dear friend she can count on and OM as a BF.
Anyway, some thoughts thrown your way.
This is such a difficult time. This is the only reason, really, that I stay on this board --- to TRY and help those through this particular part of the journey (and stay in touch with those who journeyed with me).
Ok, this is just getting nuts. What is going on?
Today my W had a job interview for her first full time job since before we had kids. This morning when she picked up the kids, she was nervous, but I didn't offer any comfort. I just stuck to the business of getting the kids ready. I was torn as to how much to fuss over her as though we were still together. So she left with the kids and I went to work. About 15 minutes before I knew she was going to have the interview, I simply texted her "Be yourself, he'll be impressed." After her interview she texted me back "Thanks! Busy for lunch?" She then called and excitely told me the interview went really well and asked if I was already eating lunch. I was, so I declined her offer, but offered sincere congratulations.
Tonight I went to our son's baseball game. I actually kept my distance from my W and didn't talk or flirt too much. I wore my running stuff and chose to do laps around the fields in between innings or when the game was boring. I did have a little fun with my W and asked her to time me, which she did and seemed to have fun with it, but she was generally kind of crabby.
Anyway, as usual, she asked if I'd like to have dinner with them after the game. I said okay and we went someplace to eat. Now for the bombshell. She said she was hoping to get a pretty decent salary with this job, and that she wanted to take the kids on vacation for a week before she started. I tentatively said okay. Then my son said "What about Daddy going to Disneyworld with us?" My W got a little flustered, but then admitted that she discussed with the kids the possibility of going to Disneyworld and asking if I'd like to go along. She was very clear that we'd get two rooms, one for the girls, and one for the boys.
This is getting too much. What is going on with OM???? My W tells me nothing, so I assume she's still involved with him. How can she really ask me to go on vacation with that going on? Is she really this much of a cake eater? Just because he's thousands of miles away, she's happy to have me along? I can't tolerate this much cake eating.
On top of it all, since we were having such a nice time at dinner, my poor son yet again voiced his hopes that we'd get back together. My W plainly and confidently stated, "S, Daddy and I are never going to get back together, but you can see we get along very well." Then she looked at me with a stressed face and said with defeat "I need another beer."
I think it may be time for my W and I to have a serious talk about our situation. What do you all think?
I think the best thing to do is to not contact her (except for business or children) and let her be the one to initiate. - BeingMe
Yeah I think antlers is right. I think you are doing a great job on your GAL and it is yeilding some results. She is not right in the head and having a serious talk about your situation is persuing and it will not help right now. If you think she is cake eating and you have had enough, don't allow it. Don't go on the trip. (But I would want to if I were you...because of the kids). But you shouldn't act when you are spinning over something she said under pressure. She was confronted by your S and she said something that she knew would get him to stop. "don't believe anything they say"...
Continue to be better than the OM in every way. Be YOU. And you are the one who is there...I see that as an advantage over OM. He is just clouding her judgement towards you, and if you are willing to wait it out and see what happens, it may just fizzle out with him. That is what usually happens, so I have read here on these boards.
Hang in there...
Anything happen today?
Hi future, I would want to go to disneyworld too! Is she sure that shes going to actually get this job? Im not sure that I would take a vacation before I started, but Ive had some pretty bad job starting experiences lately, until that first paycheck comes, Im not convinced that I actually have the job!
Im torn about this. If she is still involved with the OM then this could be cake eating. I wouldnt want to go on the vacation with her if thats the case, but wouldnt it be nice to be part of this memory for the kids? Phew. Its a tough one. When do you have to make a decision? Did you have your serious talk? Im not sure that it would help anything right now either. She isnt thinking clearly, so you have to question how productive a talk would be.
Anyway, good luck!
She'll probably get the job. You are all correct though, she is just not right in the head. Once again, she is trying to use the kids to have her cake and eat it too. She knows I'd love to go to Disneyworld with the kids, and she knows it's just not fun to go with only the kids, for her or me. OM is so far away, plus she knows she can't introduce OM to the kids without absolutely destroying her and my fragile R, and cranking up our estrangement to a level she probably doesn't want to deal with. OM is her private and personal little fantasy land.
No way can I go to Disneyworld with her if OM is still in the picture, and I know he is. In fact, I think I have to start enforcing more boundaries in general. I hate that my son has his young emotions invested in the state of our broken M. She can't just divide herself into two halves and give me one, and OM the other. It's not right!
I won't try to have a serious talk, as I agree with you all, she's in no state to have such a talk. I'll just decline the Disneyworld offer. Sad thing is, I'd LOVE to go :-(
I find it odd that your W is telling the children about a DisneyWorld trip when she hasn't got the job in the bag yet. Far better to wait and be sure. But, that's just me. I'm not so sure you shouldn't go --- gives you more opportunity to show your better self and spend time with the kids (why should they have this experience without their dad, after all, and it's more memories to build on that doesn't include the OM). I also still don't think you should initiate any R chat, unless she does and then just let her know you understand --- not necessarily agree, but understand. You can still be fairly gray by going off with your son while on the trip, then going with your daughter for a daddy/daughter date. Be around W as little as possible --- just meals, for example. (In small ways you can remind your wife that you and her are the only ones who can ever know the feelings and memories of when your children were born --- that is strong stuff for a woman --- be careful with it, though. OM doesn't have that in his arsenal, now does he?!) You do have to stop worrying about OM. Pretend he does not exist.
Just some thoughts here. Remember to be the greener grass. Take care.
I find it odd that your W is telling the children about a DisneyWorld trip when she hasn't got the job in the bag yet.
That is my W for you. She's been like that ever since I've known her.
I'm not so sure you shouldn't go --- gives you more opportunity to show your better self and spend time with the kids (why should they have this experience without their dad, after all, and it's more memories to build on that doesn't include the OM).
In the state my W is in, she has COMPLETELY separated co-parent from lover. I don't need to convince her I'm a good parent, and I don't need to add more awesome family memories to our legacy. It just doesn't matter to her in regards to her and my R. At least that's how it looks to me.
In small ways you can remind your wife that you and her are the only ones who can ever know the feelings and memories of when your children were born --- that is strong stuff for a woman --- be careful with it, though. OM doesn't have that in his arsenal, now does he?
I think she knows this, she just doesn't care enough about it to change her mind. Blows me away, as those memories bond me to her so strongly that I can't conceive she doesn't feel the same way. I have to face reality though. She doesn't.
You do have to stop worrying about OM. Pretend he does not exist.
That's a tall order.
I agree. I think you should go on the trip. This may be your biggest opportunity to outshine the OM. Show her how much fun you can be when the entire family is together. Don't say things about how great it was being M and having the kids, etc., b/c that puts pressure on her. Just be yourself.....with showing a lot of fun for the kids. That is what is important. She will be watching you going out of your way to show your children a great time in a wonderful place. This could even be a turning point for the R. Hopefully, a little magic will happen while you are there. Try to relax and not be too anxious so you can enjoy these memories you are making.
Talk later,
Sandi
I don't need to convince her I'm a good parent, and I don't need to add more awesome family memories to our legacy.
Maybe not your W, but when the kids remember DisneyWorld, it will include their dad. You will be spending only small periods of time with her, so you won't be proving anything, except how great you are at dinner time. You could even flirt without giving anything tangible except your wonderful company.
I would think this is just a step in a long series of steps toward your goal. Of course, the trip may not materialize, so probably not worth worrying about until it does.
In the meantime, don't share all that you do --- be somewhat mysterious and don't always give her what she wants (i.e. your company whenever she feels like it). I wonder what she would do if you went out on a date? Not that I'm advocating it, but if it presents itself, maybe an innocent one might shake things up???
Just throwing ideas out there.
I don't know. This whole thing is getting so weird. We're entering separation negotiations regarding the kids custody, and my W wants to include a clause that allows her to move away in two years and renegotiate the custody arrangement. We're currently at 50/50, and I'll never agree to anything less. My heart is alreday broken that I can only see my kids half the time. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
Our transition yesterday was just awful when my W dropped the kids off. My daughter was clinging onto my W, sobbing. My younger daughter was saying "Mommy, why don't you just stay here. You can sleep here." The my crying daughter chimed in with "Yes mommy, sleep here." My W just plainly stated "My home and my bed are at my house now." I tried to cheer up my daughter by playing a song on guitar for her, but that did nothing. We decided I would take the girls out for a while to distract them, so we got them buckled into the van. My daughter was slumped forward in her seat sobbing. My W hugged her for a while, then walked away and got into the car. I got into the driver's seat and went to start the van, but I just couldn't handle my daughter sobbing, so I got back out and went around and held her. My W was in the car in the driveway watching, and although my back was to her, I could hear her slowly back down the driveway and drive away. One of the saddest scenes ever :-(
For a while I thought my W was starting to come out of the fog just a little, but now she seems like the complete alien pod again. Cold as ice, and completely selfish. Where did my W go? Does she have no heart left at all? Oh, I'm sure she was crying as she drove away, but I'm just as sure she was blaming me the whole time. I made her have the A and leave.
Don't know what's going on with the plans for Disney. I doubt she'll end up going. She mentioned she might just want to take the kids to the beach while I'm gone visiting my parents.
Do not put that clause in! She can renegotiate anyway, but this makes it more solid. Who know what will the siutation will be in 2 years? If she wants to move away then she can let you have full custody.
Have you thought about getting counselling for your children? They really seem to be grieving the loss of their little worlds, quite naturally of course.
My heart goes out to you and your children.
If she wants to move away then she can let you have full custody.
Exactly! She won't get the relocation clause in the agreement. No chance. Our state makes it VERY tough for one parent to claim the need to relocate. As long as they can support themselves in any way, the state says that's good enough, the kids and the other parent's right come before "job satisfaction" or "job advancement" or salary. I knew the moment my W left me that she was essentially trapping us right here until our youngest is out of high school. Given that she's not even in kindergarten yet, that's going to be a while. But as usual, my W doesn't want to accept that, and wants to believe that she can move away and everything will be just fine.
I sometimes do wonder about counseling for our kids. In general they are doing really well with everything, but they are hurting inside, no doubt. Breaks my heart even more. I can't believe W can just live with this. One thing I always had faith in was our absolute complete devotion and love and selflessness where our kids were concerned. But now my W is clearly putting herself above the kids. I don't think I could ever voluntarily do anything that led to so much pain and grief for our kids.
I'd say any plans for Disneyworld are off at this point. In fact, I think we're entering a much less friendly phase of this whole process :-(.
Yeah, the ol' rollercoaster ride that many of us oldies are so familiar with. Strap in, grit ya teeth, and try and enjoy the ride (GAL, I mean). LOL
As for the agreement ---- do not back down or give in to anything, in my opinion. She left so she should live with the consequences as much as possible. Why should the kids, potentially, have to live 50/50 between two states/countries, and if she got them out of the country, who knows if she'll bring them back (I'm sure you've heard about that dad whose son was taken to Brazil by his mom, and now he's fighting to get back custody from the stepdad since that mom died). She's not the same person you knew. Maybe, that's why she's been so pleasant thus far --- softening you up so that you'll give in to wishes regarding the agreement.
Oh well! You continue being pleasant, but not backing down on anything, is my advice. She must face the consequences of her choice head on.
I think counselling would be a great idea for the children --- won't do them any harm and maybe it would do them a great service. One just doesn't know what's going on in their little heads. They may be thinking it's their fault mommy left, no matter how much you may tell them it's not, or some other stuff. Plus, it will strengthen any custody battle, if you are the parent seen being proactive in your children's wellbeing. (Although, I know you would be doing that out of love more than any other motive.)
Take care.
We had our meeting. Here's the deal with the relocation clause my W wanted. She finally came out and said she wants the option to move away if she has a good career option in two or three years, and that she'd give me primary custody, as long as she could have the kids for a while in the summer and during school break. Wow. She's gone. I can't believe this is the woman I had the children with who doded on them and loved them like her very soul was intertwined with theirs. Now she'd be okay just seeing them a few times per year? Who is this person? What happened to my W?
On the one hand, I'm elated she's willing to give me the kids, but on the other hand I'm sad this is who I married. Is this the the MLC and/or affair fog in action?
Sound like the MLC talking. Stay strong for your kids. They need a rock of support right now.
Thanks BeingMe. I didn't back down at all. There will be no relocation clause in the agreement, other than saying that both parents would have to agree to any changes in the agreement (duh, of course).
Ah, she
says (or, do you have that in writing?) she will give you primary custody, but that can always be re-negotiated as can living outside the area. Everything is up for possible re-negotiation which is why nothing should be relented.
I know, I sound rather hardball, 'eh! But, really I'm a sweet marshmallow. Really!
Hey, we posted almost at the same time! Snap! LOL So, my previous post was already answered.
There was one moment in the mediation meeting that was interesting. I have this way of looking at my W that I think penetrates the fog, at least to some degree. She'll be talking to me, doesn't really matter about what, and I just look at her right in the eyes and get a kind but subtle smile on my face, like I have a secret I'm enjoying by but not willing to share. I stay locked right on. I don't even try to do it, it just happens. Of course the secret is how much I love looking at her.
Anyway, she's talking in the meeting about how we're going to split holidays with the kids, actually very serious and sad stuff, and I notice how beautiful she is, and I click into that look. She's talking to me, and after a few moments she notices the look. When the mediator was distracted for a moment, her face changed, her wall totally came down, she smiled and feigned annoyance, and silently mouthed the words "Stop it" to me. I gave her a look back like "What?" She gave me a cute look that said "You know." Then her wall went back up and she continued her serious talk. It was so cool, just a moment, but for that moment the connection was there.
I don't know where her head is. I can't conceive of her actually leaving our kids. It's impossible! But then again, I lever thought she'd leave me, and I never thought she'd have an A, so what do I know?
Nothing is ever certain, and all we can do is try and live our lives with honesty and honour. But, we all make mistakes, some gigantic and some small.
I wish my H would look at me like that. Sigh!
Take care.
Wow, Ive been away for a while?! Im sorry that things are getting a little more stormy for you. That little moment you had sounds great.
It is inconceivable to me that these people can do the things that they do... And that we still want them! I think that often times after the A, people are so ashamed of the way that they behaved that it prevents them from coming back. I know my H eventually overcame that, but I think that its important to remember that the things shes doing are not without consequence for her.
Unfortunately, that doesnt mean that you and your kids dont also have to deal with the flaming wreckage that she leaves.
I wish my H would look at me like that. Sigh!
I think if I had given her that look a lot more over the years, I wouldn't be in this situation, but who knows?
Wow, Ive been away for a while?! Im sorry that things are getting a little more stormy for you. That little moment you had sounds great.
Thanks for checking in bluerain. Yeah, things are a bit stormy, but maybe it's not a bad thing. I couldn't really take the track we were on. Too much cake eating. That moment was nice. I think I've managed to wiggle my way back into her heart just a little bit.
Today is my ten year anniversary. I knew it was coming up and I was dreading it somewhat, but this morning when I got up, I had forgotten about it, and I was in a great mood. My W then sends me a text telling me she wants me to know that she knows what day it is. Totally caught me by surprise and knocked me for a loop. Took me a couple hours to recover. Why would she send me such a message? Maybe because what I said above really is true. Again, who knows?
I had been working on my plans for this day for the last couple years. She would have been blown away. I sent her a message back that maybe someday I would tell her what I had been planning.
Oh thats tough! Anniversaries are so hard, I just had my 8.5 year one last week, I know half years are no big deal, but as much as I thought about it, I cant imagine how hard a big one like 10 yrs must have been.
I think that even if things get stormy, ending the cake eating one way, or another is a good thing. Too bad that all these "good things" hurt so bad.
W came by this evening to drop off the kids. I was waiting for her outside, rather than have her come in the house. Just sitting and playing guitar on the front porch though, nice and casual. The kids came running up to see me which was nice. W wanted to tell me that her job prospects are not looking good. Salary negotiations are not leaning at all where she was hoping. I listened, but I wasn't really sympathetic. What am I supposed to do? She rejected my love and support. She's still trying to be very friendly in the face of my increasing distance from her.
I do have one thing that's really bothering me, and I'd like the opinion of others here. I am still providing health insurance for my W under my employer's family plan. I'm not entirely sure why, but the thought of giving her that while she's actively involved in a PA with OM makes me sick. Perhaps it's the thought of her getting some infection or disease from OM, and MY insurance would have to pay to treat her. I'm seriously considering telling her I'm dropping her from my insurance. I'd give her one month notice, as I think she's not going to see OM until late August. She will of course throw a little fit and accuse me of being petty, but I'm tired of just taking everything on the chin. I hate all of this, but that in particular really makes me want to vomit. Why shouldn't I do what would make ME feel better? Besides making me feel emotionally better, it would also save me some serious money each month to drop her. What do you all think?
Why shouldn't I do what would make ME feel better? Besides making me feel emotionally better, it would also save me some serious money each month to drop her. What do you all think?
I think you answered your own questions.
I doubt it would make you feel better ---- maybe a quick feel good and then bad for dumping the mother of your children from a family health plan. I would advise not to do it, but you know yourself better. This is all negotiable through the D, so visit that option at that time.
I do, however, understand how you feel about her visiting the OM while still attached to you in any way. How is she paying for this visit, BTW? With family funds? I would say that not paying for her ticket would be a better way to go?
Take care and don't do anything out of emotion ---- it will kick you back in the end, usually.
Yeah, ok, I'll just let the health insurance thing be. It'll be dealt with in our formal negotiations. I was feeling particularly angry yesterday. I am getting tired of knowing that my W is still enjoying some of the benefits of being married to me even though she rejected me and is with another man.
Last night I found out from her mother that she was in very bad shape last friday, our tenth wedding anniversary, and that's why she texted me about it. Does this sound like a woman who has completely let go of her marriage and is devoted to OM?
I've been acting much more distant towards her of late, and feeling good about it I might add. Now this morning she comes by to pick up the kids, and very nicely asks if I'd like to join them all for dinner Friday. I told her maybe. I got caught off guard, as I should have just quickly replied that I have plans, which I very well might. Here we go again...
This part is really a rollercoaster ride, for sure. Stick to your goals and keep her firmly outside your boundaries (that you have chosen).
Take care.
Nope, I dont think that she has totally let go. And I absolutely understand about her getting to benefit from being M to you and still doing what she is doing.
Ugh. I hate that she is asking you to do these things and still running around like a single woman. I agree with BeingMe, and the more you detach from her wierdness, the less it will affect you, hopefully!
I do, however, understand how you feel about her visiting the OM while still attached to you in any way. How is she paying for this visit, BTW? With family funds? I would say that not paying for her ticket would be a better way to go?
My W has her own income, which she completely isolated from me last fall when she decided to leave. At least one of her trips in the past was paid for by OM. I don't know who's paying for this trip. These trips do obviously affect our family finances though, which is why I need to get our legal separation finalized as soon as possible.
Last night at our son's baseball game I kept very distant from her, but was still cordial and nice in the interactions we did have. I did accept her offer to dinner purely so I can see my kids. Due to our scheduling, I am in a five day stretch of not seeing them, which is brutally long for me, so I thought it was worth it. I actually felt sorry for my W, when she invited both me and her mother to dinner, we were both very lukewarm about it and said we'd let her know. She looked hurt. I wish I didn't care as much as I do...
She looked hurt!!!! What about the hurt she has caused you and your children and even your extended family? (I bet you thought this already.) Your WAS sure isn't seeing things from your point of view, is she!?
Sign of MLC, perhaps? She wants her cake and eat it too. Have your undying attention, as well as, the OM's or any other person, and not be called on the betrayal, etc.
Just keep to what is best for you and your children in the long run. Ask yourself the question, "will going to dinner meet my needs, and the needs of my children down the road?" For instance, will the kids read into the various dinners, etc. a possible reconciliation and keep them hyped into that possibility and not moving on? You might dissapoint them in the short term, but in the long run, they will be able to move on.
'Eh, just a thought thrown out there ---- you, of course, know your sitch better than any of us, and you know your children better too, but sometimes one does need an objective viewpoint. Take care.
Hey, I just wanted to let you know that I responded to your last post on my thread. Thanks.
I'm sorry that you're having to go through what you are. I'll have good thoughts for you.
BeingMe - I agree with you. She is being incredibly selfish. Selfishness was always an aspect of her personality I had to deal with, but this MLC and A have kicked it up to insane levels. She thinks by being nice (on the surface), all her lying and betrayal with magically be forgiven. I've been incredibly cool about everything, because of our kids. They are already having their world rocked so hard, I just can't bear them worrying about mommy and daddy being angry at each other.
I am really starting to drop the rope and move on. I need to for my own mental health, and so I can be the best father I can be. From what I hear, it'll also probably have the best chance of making my W truly start to contemplate what she's done.
Antlers - thanks for your support!
BeingMe - I agree with you. She is being incredibly selfish. Selfishness was always an aspect of her personality I had to deal with, but this MLC and A have kicked it up to insane levels. She thinks by being nice (on the surface), all her lying and betrayal with magically be forgiven. I've been incredibly cool about everything, because of our kids. They are already having their world rocked so hard, I just can't bear them worrying about mommy and daddy being angry at each other.
I am really starting to drop the rope and move on. I need to for my own mental health, and so I can be the best father I can be. From what I hear, it'll also probably have the best chance of making my W truly start to contemplate what she's done.
Antlers - thanks for your support!
You got it, buddy!
Dropping the rope is no pressure, no expectations, true giving, and letting go. It's not giving up...and it's not 'not caring' anymore.
Well, hi there. It's been a while and I had some catching up to do on your thread!
I see that things are about the same and that you are still basically losing your mind. You seem to do much better when you detach more. My mind goes back to what the DR book tells us about "if it isn't working, try something different". I am hesitate to say anything b/c I started out thinking you should drop the rope and let her go on her way and see if she came to her senses, then when I saw how much sexual attraction was between the two of you I thought there was a good chance of reconciling. Anyway, I still believe she wants to hang onto you and that the OM is simply her fantasy b/c she's in MLC. But she is nowhere close (so it appears) to changing her mind about the S/D. I am wondering if you stopped making things so comfy for her and feeding her "needs" if that would make a difference in the stitch.
Do you know what I mean about feeding her needs? I think you do b/c when she "needs" your attention or for you to spend time with her......you seem to be there. Yes, she uses the kids a lot....like inviting you to dinner, etc., but it is more "her" feelings that she's thinking about.
The OM is a long way off and he's not there to actually keep her company. It is much easier for her to be out with you at dinner or sit with you at the S's ballgame, etc., than for her to be with a different man. She really can't afford to get involved with a different man b/c of her EA/PA with her OM in the other country. It would be too "complicated"........see what I mean? But you......her "H" is there and nobody thinks anything of the two of you having dinner with your kids, etc. They don't think anything of the two of you sitting together at a ballgame. Right? So, you fill in the gaps. Tough language, but I think you get the picture.
I still believe she has love for you but she is too confused to know her own heart/mind right now. That is why she needs a jolt! I really thought that if you approached her from the flirty friend side that it would draw her to you, but she is wanting the best of both worlds. She needs to find out she can't have both men.
You seem to be a the point of being able to drop the rope, so what do you think? It will be hard when you see her looking really sexy and you feel that need for her. Can you handle it? If you can and she has to deal with being truly "alone" and without your time & attention focused on her, it may jolt her into coming out of some of her fog. I can't promise that it will, but what you've tried--isn't working.
You know when you told about being at the ballgame and walking off to make a call and how she acted cold when you returned? You didn't know if she had been watching you or not. Even if she couldn't see you, I bet she had a good idea that you were making a call to somebody. Her first thoughts were wondering if it was another woman. You can bet your life. So, I think she would be very jealous of your time and attention. Am I suggesting you intentionally make her jealous? No, but I am saying that you do need to GAL and stop being available to her. It is hard when you are co-parenting, but it can be done. Start acting like you are S and getting a D.
Somebody mentioned how she told her H that they would not be friends if they D and how it shocked her H to discover he would "completely" lose her. The same happened with me and my H when I was talking about leaving him. I think I mentioned something about wanting to be his friend and he shook his head and looked at me with a sad little smile and told me that there would be no "friendship" if I left and that there would be no coming back home after I left. That really hit me hard, and frankly, surprised me. It was what I needed to hear.
So, yeah, I think she has had her cake eating long enough and needs to see "reality". Don't mean to sound wish-washy in my stand, but you have to do what works.
Talk to you later. Take care.
Sandi
Thanks Sandi for your thoughtful advice (as always!).
I agree with you. The cake eating must stop now. I totally see what you mean about me being the only real option to keep her company given her situation with the OM. What a strange situation! She is a master at using the kids as leverage to get to me, so I'll need to carefully consider how I'm going to handle that moving forward.
I seem to have come to a new place inside myself. I truly am dropping the rope and moving on, and not as some experiment to see how she reacts, but for real. For the first time I can see a future where I would choose to leave my W behind even if she wanted to return. I am not making that decision now, I can just see it as a possibility. Strangely, it feels good.
If it comes up between us, I may have to clarify to my W that we will not be "friends", although I will remain civil and even "friendly". And yes, you are right that it is tough on me when she is looking sexy, which is often, but even that isn't hitting me like it used to.
There are many men who have been on this board that never thought they could drop the rope, but after they did, they felt free and the pressure and stress lifted. The main thing is to watch out for the traps she sets up for you to join them (the kids) for some activity. You may have to tell her that you won't be doing any more of that since she is wanting a legal S or a D b/c you think it give the kids false hope. Everytime the two of you come together, the kids will naturally think that their parents are getting together. Why wouldn't they?
The times the kids are not at your house is when you can have personal time for GAL. I think that will help you a lot. You have to get your mind off of your wife! The less you can see her....the better. Really, the only time you have to see her is if one of the kids are in ER. Arent't they old enough that they can be ready to go when she picks they up or you go get them and just wait in the car? Why does she have to get out to visit with you? Why don't you just stay in the car and the kids leave the house and get into your car? Avoid talking with wife. They can be ready for her and jump in when she comes. Eliminate her excuses of visiting. Stop the kids from being her shield. When a the ballgame, I would stand as far away from her as possible and if she comes up beside you all talkitive, just answer with a nod of your head of a grut....women hat grunts (lol) but say a little as you have to and find a reason to get away from her. That shows her you are involved in a life that does not include her! That should get her attention. If she calls your phone.....either let it go to voice mall or call her back later. Don't sit home waiting to see what's she going to do next. Get out of that house and GAL.
Talk to you later.
sandi
Yeah, she does use the kids as a shield, doesn't she!? And, you come up looking like the bad guy if you say 'no'. I found, in the end (after I went through the begging and pleading and logical arguments --- ugh) that distant and friendly worked for me. So, perhaps ask her to stop inviting you to meals, especially, in front of the the children.
And ..... GAL! Find something challenging to do, perhaps, like Toastmasters or something like that --- a new language or something physical, like going to the gym (well, I did, anyway LOL)
I was one busy girl!
I agree with sandi. I told H that I wouldn't be his friend, and he said "Thats too bad...", no, whats "Too Bad" is how these people think that they can walk away without repercussions. But you know what, you dont do your friends like this. And if one of your friends treated you this way, Im sure that you would not continue associating with them on the same level, or at all.
I think that its important to remember too that the sad smile is much more poignant than a screaming match, if it comes to you telling her that you wont be her friend.
Thanks everyone. Contrary to what you might be thinking, I am GALing like crazy! I'm hardly ever home! I've got plans almost every night I don't have the kids. I'm exhausted!! :-)
I will be declining her offers moving forward. Even at this last dinner I didn't interact with her much at all. Just concentrated on the kids. I'll try to make our kid transitions as quick as possible with no interaction. I can't quite have her wait in her car because for now we switch cars too. Our minivan stays with the kids. That will be changing once we have legal papers signed. Fun stuff...
Hey futureunknown.
Traveldane has a signature line that says...'when you're at the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on!' - FDR
Pretty good...huh?
Hang in there, man! Keep doing what you're doing! Leave that rope limp on the ground...you can't get that elephant to move no matter how hard you pull!
Wow, this is weird. Something has really changed in me. I guess I have dropped the rope. I don't care what my W does anymore, provided our kids are taken care of. I'm just enjoying my life. I don't mind being at home alone. I'm looking at the future only in terms of myself and my kids, and I'm excited about it. I drove the kids around some nearby neighborhoods and asked them their opinions about maybe getting a new house next year. They were enthusiastic, and so was I! I love the time when I have my kids, and I'm enjoying my time on my own.
Best of all, my interactions with my W are totally different. Just business. I have no interest in talking with her, I barely look at her, and not as some angry "silent treatment", but because I really don't care. My attitude is light and happy. I see her as just sad and lonely. I can't fix it, and it's not my responsibility to fix it. She made her decision, she can live with it. I have no problem finishing up our separation papers and signing them. Actually, I want to, so I can fully move on.
This has been quite a journey. As per my name here, my future is still unknown, but I'm totally fine with that! :-)
Future,
I think you are doing great. I actually expected to see you reconciled from the first page to the last, but I guess it wasn't meant to be that quick.
Realize that you are the person that you want to be and can be proud of your changes. You didn't see success with your wife because her eyes and heart weren't open to you...just OM. On some level she likes having you for her friend and co-parent...she likes to cake eat, but the other side of the equation is she won't commit to what you really want, which is a give and take relationship...something fulfilling for you. Maybe if she came back it would still be unfulfilling. I suspect she'd just take. What she needs is to look in the mirror, like you did, and decide she's going to do what it takes to improve herself and win you back.
Will she do it? Maybe. Will it happen before you are involved with someone else or get to the point you'd never return to the marriage with her? Probably not. I would lay money on the possibility that she doesn't actually express interest until 1) the thing with OM is completely dead and buried (and that won't happen until there is no more contact) or 2) that you are with someone else. I hate that your kids are in the middle of this, and that you have to turn down invites, but it's probably for the best. She needs to open her eyes to what she's losing, and I'm not sure they ever do until it's gone.
Phoenixdeux-
Yeah, she really is so stuck on the OM that she just couldn't be open to me. However, I've made the blunder of giving her enough support that she could concentrate on her feelings for OM without really worrying about losing me. That's changed now. Will she change in response? I don't know, but I'm definitely not going to wait around to find out. I can honestly say if she came to me today and wanted to reconcile my answer would be no. Not because I have completed closed the door, but because she has in no way shown me how she would be different.
This is the beginning of detachment. Keep at it.
You are doing awesome.