Could use some insight...long...

So I finally decided to put a thread on here and get some advice. Not going to go into what got my M here, it doesn�t really matter at this point but no OP or MLC. If anyone is interested I do have a thread somewhere on the separated forum.
Anyway for about the last two to three months things seem to be getting better between me and my W. When were together no tension just pretty much fun. Now those times are not that often but that�s fine.

A few weeks ago she bought a new car, great she needed one. Well she calls me from the dealership to get my opinion. I told her well I have no idea but I�m sure you�ve done your research and know that you are getting a good deal so I think you should do it. It did surprise me she called but I�m glad she did. Later that night I called to joke with her about how many times she opened the garage door to look at her car. I then asked her if I told her I thought buying the car was a bad idea would she really not have bought it, she said she asked three people and if any of the said no she wasn�t going to, so I still in the top three the others were her parents and sister. The reason I bring this up is it had been a loooooog time since she asked my opinion on anything that didn�t have to do with the kids.
Anyway fast forward to the week before Easter, it was our kids spring break and I decided I was going to ask her to dinner (on Thursday) when the kids were at her parents. Well I had to stop by on Tuesday to sign our taxes (yep we still filled jointly) and we were talking about Easter (my weekend) and when I would have the kids back on Sunday. Her parents, sister, her and the kids were going to go to my SIL for dinner. I told her I wasn�t sure yet I didn�t want to give up my whole day, well she said her Mom thought I should just come to dinner, YEAH . So I said sure, great. That did make me rethink asking her to dinner didn�t want do too much at one time.

So Wednesday night I decided I was going to ask, what did I have to lose? So I called and she is in an AWFUL mood luckily I did have another reason to call asked her and got off the phone. No way was I going to ask her when she was like that.

Fast forward to Friday�I was meeting her parents to get my kids and she called to see if I have them yet, nope�Little small talk(fyi this whole conv is said in almost laughing tones)�So I said you sound like your in a better mood today, she said she is, said Wednesday just sucked�I said too bad I was going to ask you to dinner but didn�t think you�d say yes. Well you should have I didn�t do anything last night�Me would you have said yes�Her I guess you�ll never know (laughing)�Me maybe you�ll get lucky and I�ll ask you again someday�Her YOU might get lucky and I�ll say yes�pretty much end of conv. since kids showed up.
Easter Sunday GREAT day, it seemed for me, kids, MIL, FIL, SIL, wife was almost like she would rather have been anywhere else. My inlaws were great to me better than in a long time, I was a little nervous being around them the whole day but it was great. Couldn�t and still can�t figure out this wrt my W.

So some questions�

I�m only supposed to pay attention to half of what they do, when it�s just us and the kids things are great, if anyone else is around she�s more distant.

She has D papers, has had them since last June, they are still unopened sitting on her desk. She has till June to either go forward or the case is dismissed. No real question here just FYI

She still doesn�t really invite me to do anything when she has the kids, I do sometimes, she goes sometimes. Do I keep asking her?

I don�t really do any pursuing or haven�t except maybe the dinner thing I�m wondering if maybe she wants me too (a female opinion would be great here). Funny thing is when we first started dating she asked me out first, I said no the first time and she actually asked again.

Sorry this is so long but any opinions would be great�

Sounds like you're in a good place...compared to a lot of us here. I'd keep doing what you've been doing. Sounds OK under the circumstances. Remember PATIENCE! I need to remember it too! But, I'd give anything for our relationship to be where yours is right now. Sounds to me like you're doing good. Keep it up...and don't pursue. Play it cool. She knows you care, and she knows what you want. Don't remind her...you don't need to.

Quote:

I'd give anything for our relationship to be where yours is right now.

Thanks for that just remember it has taken me almost two years so you are right patience is the key. There are many days that I do want to quit, since it's been so long and I just want this to come to a conclusion.

It just seems like there has to be a time when I have to go out on a limb and ask about things like "dates"...

Dates for you, or dates for her?

Sometimes I think people make a decision they really don't want to, and quit, just to go ahead and have some type of conclusion. I don't want to do that...and I don't think that you do either.

This is hard, living this way, not knowing, etc.

Dates for us, together, I have no desire to date anyone right now, I don't think she does either.

A big reason I haven't given up is obviously she's not sure about D, she's had the papers for almost a year and still hasn't opened them.

Not knowing is the worst part if I just had SOME idea of what she was thinking it would make it easier, really no matter what the thinking is.

Hang in there then! I'm pullin' for 'ya.

When, and how, do you get to where you stop wondering where they are and what they're doing?

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When, and how, do you get to where you stop wondering where they are and what they're doing?

LOL if you figure that out let me know. Seriously it's time like the whole process. The weekends that I have the kids are hard even though I almost always know where she is and what she is going.

Quick story...Over a year ago my W and I got into a HUGE fight about spending time together. I had called her one morning when I had the kids to see if she wanted to go bowling with us, well she said she was in the middle of cleaning the closets but thanked me...That night I called her so she could talk with the kids and she was in a car, I was livid, just tore into her about how she couldn't do anything as a family but could go out at night (btw it was with her S to an art gallery). Almost all of our fights were about spending time together. I would get angry we weren't and her reply was why would I want to spend time with someone who fights with me...(Great point, see that now)...I still can get jealous if she goes out with friends but she would NEVER see that now, and on those days sleep doesn't come easy.

Hi Volleydog,

It would help to know more of your sitch - especially a long sitch such as yours, knowing the history would help.

That said, remember the "rules" of DB are guidelines, and there is some flexability, and different sitchs require different actions. One of the rules is do something different. If you have not been perusing, and you seem "stuck", it might be time for some minor pursuit - be careful, try it and monitor. Just ask for one really date like thing - dinner and a movie, mini-golf, anything that you and W may have done before you got married. Just ask, and monitor. If she says no, and the no is just no, busy, what have you but not ugly, then wait a week and try again. If she says yes, be ready for her to change her mind at last moment, or have a reason not to show, and DONT GET MAD AT HER IF IT DOES - at least dont let her know if you get mad. Step back and try again another time. You could also look at this as a 180 - if you have not been asking her on dates, it is a change for you and could have positive results.

Her comments seem to be hints that she wants you to pursue a bit - you telling her about almost asking was somewhat a db no-no, but in this case it worked out well - she opened up to you and pretty much made it clear she was open to the suggestion.

As for the distance when others are around - typical WAW actions, and from what I can gather here your W fits WAW description. If others see positives, she has to admit them, to herself. But keep this in mind - people who want you out of their lives do NOT invite you to their families holiday gatherings!

Remember that at some point she convinced herself she was better off without you - enough to get the D papers started.. but since then something has stopped her - it was not you, at least not directly, but it was her, perhaps in response to changes you have made.

Tell us about what you have changed - how you have become better. Tell us what W has let you know about what was wrong, why she wanted the D (without the WAW phrases like ILYBNILWY).

There are definitely positives in your story - sounds like it needs a little push.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

Remember

Well couldn't find my old stuff on the separated board so here goes...I have/had an addiction to painkillers, realized I had the problem and stopped. The issue she had was that she didn't know about the problem until after I quit so she said she couldn't trust me anymore. Did the whole rehab thing and I've been clean for right at two years. For a while after I was clean I had a hard time finding a good job, now I've got a great job.

The only R talk we've had in the last nine months was at Christmas. She said she was still going to D since she still has trust issues, I took that as a good thing, going from never going to trust you again to trust issues.

One other thing about her I can't figure out is the closet in the master bedroom. I still have some clothes in there, obviously nothing I would really wear but still there. She still only hangs her clothes to what used to be our "splitting point".

I helped her change the storm door this weekend and the screen is kept in a storage area behind the closet, no snooping...

This time of year is really hard for me and the whole S. This is the time W and I would be doing all the yard work together, we made a great team as far as planning where things would go ect. Last night I was over with my D as W took S to Cub Scouts, we switch off meetings. She was telling me how this weekend she is getting mulch delivered I just hate that I can't/won't be there to help her with it. She also got a few tress/sticks from S school to plant for Arbor Day and was telling me where she was going to plant them...I know it sounds stupid but it just sucks.

Journaling�
Wow found myself back on the rollercoaster this weekend�Made what now looks like a big backslide. Friday as I was picking up the kids from W house she had had a big load of mulch delivered.

Me: That looks like it will be a lot of work, you could probably use some help.
W: Yeah that would be nice.
Me: Well after D�s bball game tomorrow we�ll come over and I�ll give you a hand.
W: Thanks

So I wasn�t sure if she was going to make it to the game she was on call the night before and usually doesn�t get much sleep. She calls about 5 minutes before it starts to let me know she�s on her way. She gets there just as it starts and actually sits next to me, which she hasn�t done in forever, usually there�s a kid in between or she sits in front of me. Game goes on lots of chatting between us. S then says something about us coming over after the game.
W: So you guys are coming over
Me: Sure I told you I�d give you a hand.
W: I just don�t want you to feel like you have to.
Me: I don�t.

So I get over there and basically she wouldn�t �let me� help. After about 15minutes told her well it looks like you�ve got this covered so the K�s and I are going to take off.
Later on she calls to say goodnight to the kids. She tells me that nothing new has really happened since this morning, I say ok I�ll let you go�Then she starts talking about how soar she�s going to be in the morning, NEXT mistake on my part�I said well I did come over to help. She said yeah I know next time I just need to have another wheelbarrow. Chatted for another 10 minutes and I told her I had to go to get the kids ready for bed.

I just hate this limbo land I feel like sometimes things are getting better but then I look back and think maybe not. She doesn�t ever really ask about what I�m doing never invites me to do things with her and the kids, ect�Part of me wants to just say lets either go forward with the D or start working on the M on or the other�

I just need to snap out of this funk.

At least she is communicating with you. Thats a good thing. And the fact that she has not filed those divorce papers yet says that she is still unsure. Ride with it. Don't pursue her hard.

Maybe what you should do is something that you know she loves and you and the kids do it, but somehow let it slip that yall are going to do it. She might ask you if you want her to join. But its got to be something you know she loves to do. An absolute favorite restaurant, a favorite movie, a favorite event, concert, theme park, etc. Is there anything she always loves to do?

Just a suggestion since you are trying to think of ways to ask her out, but don't want to pursue to hard.

Kevin

Well......So last night W told me there is no way to fix the M she will never get over the past and wants a D. Of course she wants to work it out between us and not L so it's not hard.

I probably did a few wrong things when she told me: I asked her to go to MC again, to just try to date, ect.

She said we couldn't date wo/MC and didn't want to go to MC because it would be too hard emotionally. I of course (stupidly)said you think D will be easy emotionally?

I do believe in DB because I know I'll be ok but this really SUCKS!!!!

Well this is just odd or not...

So after our talk on Thursday about her having no doubt about the D we move to the weekend. No real talk between us except Sunday I was taking off work Monday to spend the day with the kids they didn't have school. So we're talking and I said I should have just kept them with me tonight so I didn't have to drive over in the morning...W says you could just stay here...That comment didn't register until about 11pm that night.

Well Monday I have the kids things are going great in the past I usually just left when she got home but this time I decided to make dinner and stay for dinner. She calls to tell me she on her way home and is kind of shocked I made dinner but happy.

During dinner she mentioned she hasn't gotten a card for her F bday. I told her to go after dinner since my S wanted me to play super Nintendo (yes that old game system, my W and I got when we first got married). So we're playing having a great time W comes home I'm ready to say bye when she says "when's my turn"...I was shocked she's never done this. Finally I say I've got to go. She kept sort of following me finding things to talk about.

Last night on the phone very very cold...

Here's my dilemma. She has mentioned before how she hates doing things alone and how if a decision has to be made I leave it up to her. So the making dinner I just didn't when in the past during the S I'd ask her if she wanted me to. Now I think part of the reason for being cold was she had a long day at work and she had to rush to get kids make dinner ect where the night before she didn't.

So when I did take a little control I got a great response in her actions not words where do I draw the line? Where is the line between telling her I'll do this and pursuing? I'm not going to do something like get off work early and surprise her by picking up the kids and making dinner or should I?

Quote:

I'd like to know this also my W told me almost the same thing. She is also the main bread winner and we moved all the time for her career then one day she springs on me when are you going to get a real job I didn't want to work full time my whole life...Of course every time my career was moving forward we had to move for her...

Volleydog, You posted this on SP's thread and I wanted to answer here (make SP think about it.)
She expected you to be the main bread-winner. She wants you to be the main bread-winner. She will never come out and say this so don't expect it. It's one of the ways women feel loved and cared for. Read "His Needs/Her Needs" and the "Five Love Languages." It's also primal that it is our roles as men.
Don't say anything just step up here and I promise you will see some changes in your W. You can handle it.
Cheers
Coach

Hi Volleydog,

Coach is RIGHT.

It seems that your W is on the verge of being won back. You are doing great with DBing!

I wonder if she felt you were abrupt last night in response to her wanting to play Nintendo and talk. (No matter how tired a woman is, she will be sweet and kind to a man that she is interested in bringing closer.) I'm not firm on how I feel about this yet. I think it's good that you have her *thinking* and you left her wanting more. But, I wonder if what she saw was a cold jerk when she was giving you an opportunity to be with her.

Because you screwed up with the painkillers (DON'T DO DRUGS EVER AGAIN,) she feels totally betrayed and her trust is diminished. It is going to take time for you to prove yourself to her again.

So, go all out in working on being a great you. Making dinner, I think, was a fine thing to do for your family. It warmed her right up. Offering to help her (or just do it) with yardwork is being a hero.

I'm sorry you don't want to work full time your whole life, but you're a MAN who has to provide for his family. Not many women wnat a man who isn't interested in busting his butt to take care of his woman and his young ones. It's a huge turn off to see a man shy away from work. Coach is right.

Stay clean (first and foremost,) step it up at work, GAL, and keep being your family's hero. She WANTS you to succeed.

You are very lucky, friend, to still have your space reserved for you in the closet.

This is within your grasp!

Lucky

Thanks for the replies...

First to clear up something. I wanted to keep the jobs I had but we had to move, she's an MD and we moved for her school, residency and finally her job. So my career would just keep starting over it's not that I don't want to provide I just couldn't. Now I've got a great job will probably be making so she could work part-time(which is what she wants) within the year and I love my job, it's just that I've finally got to a point that I was able to put down roots for a job.

As for the Nintendo there was no cold from her or me, it was GREAT. We were joking around giving each other a hard time(in a fun way) the way we used to. It was the next night when I wasn't there she was cold.

Nope no drugs ever again clean over two years with the help of God and NA...

I'm just not sure where the line is between pursuing and being a strong man and just doing something because I know she needs it is.

Oh one more thing...I was talking to a friend about the whole game thing and based on what I told him he said her body language was totally into me. When she first got home the first thing she did was put a sweater on said she was cold...But after she came upstairs to play with us she took it off was laying on the bed just being very open, no crossed arm or legs, ect. Which also goes back to DB I didn't want to leave and it didn't SEEM like she wanted me too but I didn't want to push it...Remember three days earlier she said we have zero chance.

Hi Volleydog,

I wonder if she was angry for the "why did he go and screw it all up with the drugs" reason. Just a thought.

Consistency and persistence is key. Keep doing what you're doing!

Lucky

Oh I know that's the case she's told me. My problem was at the time I didn't realize it was a problem till I did the rehab thing. Her hurt came from me not telling her I had a problem when at the time I really didn't know.

So yesterday seemed like a good day with the W and kids...It was my weekend with k's but we went over to W's around noon for Mday. We rode bikes to a little restaurant and had a brunch had a good time on the ride lots of laughing since D had a hard time with the ride (lots of hills).

Got back to her place and I cut the grass for her and then helped her plant a TON of flowers she bought...Not really much to say except it seemed to me to be a good fun day, she really confuses me...

One thing I have noticed in the last week or so she seems to respond better to me telling her I'm going to do something rather than asking if she wants me to do something...

"One thing I have noticed in the last week or so she seems to respond better to me telling her I'm going to do something rather than asking if she wants me to do something... "

ALWAYS!!! Take this approach always. We all prefer a man to take charge and be definitive, deliberate, and decisive.

Sounds like you made a nice Mother's Day for her. Great work!

Lucky

So just wanted to post something...Monday I got the kids and we had a great dinner, fun time while W had to work late. While I was checking work email her computer goes to blue screen, never a good thing. Call W and ask her if she's had trouble with it, yes a little, ok I'll take care of it. Luckily me being in IT I was able to get one of my consultants to do a remote fix, which was still going on when she came home, impressed her.

Usually I just leave when she gets home but told her I would give the K's a bath so she could change, ect...surprised her...

Got kids to bed went down stairs talked w/W for a bit told her I had to go, she kept talking, then said she needed to eat...Told her (jokingly) well I guess I'll go since you seem to be kicking me out...No you can stay...Nah it's late I've got a TON of work to do...actually walked me out which she usually doesn't do.

Last night S had a concert at school with a solo, very good if I do say so myself. Had a good time with the Family...One weird thing as I was putting the k's in her car she walked around the passenger side where I was putting D in and not around the front to just the drivers side, not sure if this is anything but just something I noticed, since she had to wait on me to put D in before she and I could walk around to drivers side for S...

Volleydog,

I'm not sure about that last bit... Could be anything. Sometimes I stand there waiting to throw a bag in after my H buckles the car seat. I wouldn't read too much into that moment for fear of building false hope.

Have you identified her love language yet? You are BIG on acts of service... Is that her number one?

Lucky

That last bit was more of "that's weird" since she never does that...no false hope on my part I'm still working under that assumption that the D will happen and I'm just enjoying the time we spend together wo/any expectations.

As for her LL acts of service are one of hers as long as I don't call it "helping her", if that makes sense. I'm not sure on her others.

You are doing great, I meant to mention before. Just trying to crack the code.... Perhaps look into the Love Languages book to see if there is anything else you can be tending to.

Lucky

I keep meaning to look into that book...My problem is I'm not good at "reading into" things, ex. I never really know what a poem or song is about unless someone tells me, THEN I can see it, unless it VERY obvious.

$\:\)$ Your humility is sweet, but I have more faith in you than what you describe. I think you're being lazy and hiding behind pretend ignorance. Read the book!

Quote:

Your humility is sweet, but I have more faith in you than what you describe. I think you're being lazy and hiding behind pretend ignorance. Read the book!

A velvet 2x4, nice.

LOL...I could go along with the lazy :). The pretend ignorance not so much, was a Chem/Econ major in college but needed constant tutoring in the art history and English classes I "had" to take.

BUT I will go at lunch today and pick it up, that's a promise.

That gives me joy. $\:\)$ It helps to get informed as much as possible rather than groping around in the dark, hoping you'll get where you want to go.

I was referring to pretending to be ignorant about your abilities to read people, especially your wife. If you can't read your wife, there is an obvious lack of connection that you either lost or never had. I certainly was not calling you stupid or uneducated.

You are SMART for turning your life around and being proactive about reaching for your goals. Coming here is smart. Reading is smart.

Lucky

Originally Posted By: LuckyGirl

I certainly was not calling you stupid or uneducated.
Lucky

Never even crossed my mind that you were saying that. I'm more of a facts and figures rather than a creative/artistic type, I need some of SP's creative mojo...:)

Do peoples LL change over time or are they sort of a core thing? If they change this will take some work figuring them out if they stay pretty much the same I THINK I have a good idea.

To be honest, I'm a novice at the LL's. Coach is your guru and I'll defer to him to guide you along.

Hi V,

You posted on my thread a while ago. I think we are in reverse situations and have wanted to have some dialogue to see if we can help each other.

From the bit that I read here, if your W is having trust issues - as I am - I will shed some light perhaps. What I am looking for is:
be a man of your word - do what you say - do it when you say you will - if asked to stop doing something, then it should stop, if something is planned then show up, don't back out - if you don't like something a simple say so ( without the arguing) should be enough - and remember that sometimes you have to do things you don't like.

My suggestion is to either think through what you know about your W and/or what she has said she wants or needs from you to build trust again.

My H has 100+ days now, struggles with our R and the task of rebuilding. I reach out to you because it sounds like you care about W a lot and I know my H wants to be with me too. I really want/need to work out the trust and friendship part but my H doesn't seem to have a clue. Perhaps it is because its so early yet?

Let me know if I can help or not. I hear you struggling, I hear you care, I hear you want to move forward. I feel the same but I am earlier in the process. You sound like a good man and maybe your W feels the same but is afraid. (hence, not filing the D after all this time)

Kassie,

Thank you very much for the reply. I hear you on the do what I say I'm going to do, she hasn't said it for a while but I used to get a lot of I can't trust you're going to do what you say...If I tell her I'll get the kids because she has to work late she'll still call me at 5pm to make sure I'm still going to get them.

I really do think a big part of why she hasn't filed is she's afraid of both getting back together and getting a D. I'm afraid a little also, almost more of working things out than the D, I've accepted that a D is more likely at this point.

I know she wants me to be more decisive and have "plans". One of her "favorite" things to ask is what's your plan, she says this for almost everything. Last night for example, our D has T-ball on Saturday and it's our turn to work the concession stand, problem is the game is from 10:00-11:00am and our shift is 12-2pm. Last night she asked what my plan was, I actually had one, I could tell she was a little surprised. Usually I just say I don't know what's yours or I don't care whatever you want to do. My problem is sometimes I really don't care, I'll do whatever is easier for her but I've tried to stop that, and I think I'm doing a good job...

Volleydog,

I like that... "What's your plan?" That's pretty effective in making sure that those around you have thought things through before they come to you with a messy blob of information. Cool.

In being consistent with this question, she's *forcing* you to behave in the way that she presumably needs. I assume that the way it is delivered, she is not judging or being condescending (because that would NOT be good.)

Lucky

Originally Posted By: LuckyGirl

Volleydog,

I assume that the way it is delivered, she is not judging or being condescending (because that would NOT be good.)

Lucky

No nothing like that at all. She's just a VERY organized person, me not so much. I'm pretty sure I have one of the "messiest" desks in our office, but I know where everything is :).

Oh and I did pick up 5LL didn't have time to start it yet, work is killing me but I did skim through it.

Well looks like it's over...

Got a call from W on the way home from work, WHILE she's making dinner for the kids that she wants to talk about the D.
W: Talked to L and he is going to make a court date but I was hoping we could work this out ourselves...
Me: (shocked)Ok give me something from YOU not L that you think is fair.
W: I thought we could do this together
Me: ummmm no just come up with something you think is fair
W: What do you think is fair
Me: for us to fix M
W: For D
Me: I don't want this you do come up with something
W: I'm not sure what do you think
Me: 50:50
W: not going to happen
Me: Well come up...
W: Ok I want it all...
Me: Not going to happen, I'm going to go we're not getting anywhere
W: so you're just going to hang up on me
Me: No bye
.
.
.
So I guess me thinking these last two weeks she was having second thoughts well I guess not. I'm really fine with it at this point MUCH MUCH MUCH more po'd than hurt or sad. I really think she thinks that we're going to be best buddies after a D and nothing will change from the way we've been. She's wrong. I've going as dark as dark can be, not in any way to save M but my sanity.

Ouch.

Hang in there, volleydog.

I have a feeling you're going to need a lawyer to do this, or at least a mediator.

It's not over even after it's over. You just keep on doing the great work you've been doing.

Don't give up hope yet!

Lucky

Thanks but at this point I'm not really sure I want her anymore. She knew how I felt and I think she took advantage of that or at the very least thinks things won't change with a D. I think I've given all I can to her and I really think she doesn't fully understand what a D means.

Take your time thinking things through. Don't react or act impulsively. Try to pull yourself up and get in the company of GOOD people.

Don't dare touch drugs or alcohol -- keep that promise to yourself.

Lucky

Originally Posted By: LuckyGirl

Don't dare touch drugs or alcohol -- keep that promise to yourself.
Lucky

That WILL NOT happen!!! I do appreciate the concern, I really do.

The good thing is there nothing for me to do right now. While I can't stop her I'm not going to do ANYTHING to speed things up.

OK, good. I'm glad to hear that.

Do you have GAL plans this week?

Lucky

So sorry for you volleydog.

Sorry I don't have any advice, but you are in my prayers.

Something I have been repeating to myself through it all - esp. when po'd... is I need to deal with things with dignity and respect if for only myself esteem. Get the anger out on your own and deal with her as stated.

Going dark sounds like a healthy idea right now. Only with the kids it is more like "grey".

And keep talking here where others can give support.

Just heard the same today.

Maybe its time to play hardball with her and show her what a D means then. Its not fun and mutual. Its gut wrenching and tears people apart.

I like the way you are putting the chips in her corner. Make her give you a fair plan. Thats good. She is nuts if she thinks she can have it all. No judge is going to grant that.

Something else I learned. Find out if your judge is a dad friendly judge. Mine is. My judge had to raise his 2 kids on his own and doesn't care about the emotional crap that a WAS may bring. I couldn't expect a better judge.

If its not a dad friendly judge, ask for another judge. Your L if you have one should know who is.

Its worth checking into if you have to go to court.

If I were you, I would give her a list of what you want since she appears to think this is all a big game and yall can still be buddy buddy. If you give her that list and are firm about it, it may start to sink in to her that this is just going to be a mutal thing between yall. I don't know if it will help you. But what could it hurt? It would force her to realize reality.

Kevin

So we talked again late last night her telling me she can't figure out what's "fair". She suggested that her DAD look it over because she thinks he'd be fair...me LMAO...Now I think her Dad is an honest great guy but no way would he be objective.

Then she starts telling me about stuff I did two years ago, not sharing with or talking to her enough ect...I asked her do you think we'd be here if we didn't S, she said probably not...So you think we would have worked things out if we weren't S but you're not willing to try, sorry that makes no sense. She tells me there's too much past hurt. Well you're choosing to hang onto those feelings instead of moving past them...She said it's not a choice...I see this is going nowhere so I end the call and tell her to email me her idea of what's fair...Then one last dig from her that I'm controlling her by telling her to email it too me, wtf, what else am I supposed to say just keep it to yourself and I'll just guess what you're thinking...

So I'm not sure what to do about tomorrow. I'm working a concession stand from 12-2 after was going to go to W's to hang out till my S's cub scout campfire at 6pm. I was doing this because its about 45min drive each way for me. Part of me thinks I should still just go to her house that way I get time with kids other part says that's not very dark at all...

V -
Like I said earlier - there is no real dark time when you share children. It changes to this: have whatever contact you want with the kids and only talk to W if it has to do with the kids (aside from polite social greetings). No other talk with W. Let the L do the D talk if there needs to be talk of fairness. If you agree to talk about what is "fair" then as you noted, R talk occurs.

You have the difficult position of deciding to "work it out between you" and not go dark in hopes of reconciliation or "let the L's talk and stay dark".

I know if may be the difference between an easier D financially or not. It still sounds like their is a R to attend to. If you don't want this then let her work through L's and not be able to talk to you. Both still have to sign on the dotted line. It is an intimidating process and maybe without you to talk to through it - well, maybe she will reconsider. You can always refuse to sign and hang on for awhile. I know you have been at this for two years - it seems like a long time - but I personally don't hear that it is over for the two of you. Like you thought - I hear fear - not about D but about working through things.

She is copping out when she says she has trust issues still that she cannot work out. It is definitely under one's control to forgive and let go. You understand that, she still needs to learn how. Can you help her with that?

Pardon me also for sticking another opinion here -but I think I read earlier that you mentioned being afraid more of working it out than D. What are your issues? (You don't have to say) just think.

One last thing to say - I think you have a lot to offer her - I wish you could find a way to and I know you do too - to find the key that opens her up.

Yesterday...

Well I decided I wasn't going to go over to W house between working the concession stand and S's cub scout bonfire...Call the W after working and she is disappointed since she needs to get a new dishwasher and didn't want to take the kids. So I end up going home getting changed and just going over. I shouldn't probably have but it gave me time with the kids...

We go to the bonfire have a good time just chatting laughing ect. On the property is an old house so I tell her that I'm going to go check out the inside, she follows me, I didn't ask her to go. So we're walking through this house and I just wanted so much to just throw her against the wall and start kissing her...didn't...So I was making smores for our kids and I ask W if she wants one sure but she says she likes the marshmallows just just lightly brown not not burnt like me...I make the best damn marshmallows ever apparently even other women were telling me how good they looked, didn't realize it was such a big deal so we shared it.

Driving home my D asks if I'm spending the night, usually I'd take the heat and say no but I wasn't going to do that this time...So W says I don't think so...While I hate that the D says things like this I like it so the W knows the K's want us to be a family.

Now I THINK she was flirting with me during the night looking back and I missed it. The other night talking about the D I told her I wanted a few things for sure...Then during same conv I repeated (in a humorous way) I wanted those things and to ML one more time after the bonfire...Funny thing she didn't say no she said How do you know I don't have plans...Well it gets over at 9pm and do you have a babysitter, she says no, I say great...She just says I'm not sure it's a good idea...BTW there has been NONE since the S.

Looking back I'm wondering if she wanted ME to bring it up again and take charge. One thing she has repeatedly said is she hates making all the decisions and also she doesn't feel she can count on me. The counting on me is why I went over early but I get the feeling I blew it on the ML thing, I think she would have. Also it wasn't just about sex it's about me being decisive.

So I'm not sure STILL where to draw a line with her about being able to count on me and the fact that she wants a D so I shouldn't worry about that anymore.

You seem a bit confused.

I understand that after a long sep. ML or bringing it up can be awkward - not to mention the D. talk earlier this week.

I also wonder what W means when she says "she needs to be able to count on you"? Is it about being on time? Doing things for her when asked? Reading her mind? The latter is often a female thing and hard to describe that is why the men in our lives rarely get it right.

Do you know what you want to see happen?

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I also wonder what W means when she says "she needs to be able to count on you"? Is it about being on time?

I think for her it's interchangeable with trust. I really don't remember specific example where I've told her I would do things and haven't but I know I have. It bothers me that it still concerns her. For example Saturday I told her I was working the concession stand from 12-2pm as I was driving there I KNEW she was going to call to make sure I was still doing it and she did.

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Do you know what you want to see happen?

Right now I would just like her to be open to reconciliation by just trying MC again or dating or whatever and see what happens. I know if she actually opened her mind to it it could/would work. At the same time part of me just wants it over.

Sounds like you just want to move forward one way or another. That's ok, but if your W needs more time would you rather wait or are you ready to let go. Doesn't sound like you want to let go.

Somehow I think you need to have a serious convo about what you want and what she wants. In other words, what will it take for her to work on the M and what will it take for you to work on it? Make these things specific and needs. What keeps you from having that convo with her?

By the way, could you check out my latest?

I don't want to let go. I would not initiate the D and I won't move it along any faster than it has to go but I won't do anything to delay it either.

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Somehow I think you need to have a serious convo about what you want and what she wants. In other words, what will it take for her to work on the M and what will it take for you to work on it? Make these things specific and needs. What keeps you from having that convo with her?

We had this talk and she says there is nothing she can/will do to work on fixing the M. She doesn't want to revisit the old feelings, period. So right now the only thing I can do is wait I guess.

I did something REALLY stupid last night. 99% of the time when I call to talk with the kids her and I always talk after. One day last week I didn't really want to talk with her so I hung up after talking w/k's and she said I hung up on her...Last night she gets on the phone and says hello i say hello and pause and she says well you called here...that really pi$$ed me off...but we talked for a few minutes...Later I call her back and say I didn't appreciate the comment and that maybe it would be best if I just assume she has nothing to say to me and if she does she can just call me back...She didn't like this at all and it turned into a pretty big argument and now I'm not sure where we stand. I just don't like being the one that pretty much initiates every conv we have because I'm calling to talk with the kids. I feel like every once in a while if she wants to talk she should call me and if she doesn't no big deal...

Just caught up on your thread...have your wife talk with me! J/K. You are doing everything I wished my exh would have done. You saw your problem and got help. I am not quite understanding why your W has such an issue of trust that she didn't know about the addiction until after. I don't know many active addicts that announce they are addicts at the dinnertable. When they are in active addiction, they hide it. They want no one to discover it. I am guessing you did too.

Bottom line to me is...you had a problem and got help. That is huge. Unless I am missing some bad behavior somewhere, not sure what her 'trust' issue is or how long she wants to keep the limbo up.

You are sure doing your part in wanting to save the M. Is she willing to go to MC? It may be a good idea to see what her hesitation to recommitting is. 2 years is a long time. Kassie's H is doing well but it hasn't been that long. Mine is still in the gutter and no signs of recovery.

Thanks for posting on my thread. I hope I can help you too.

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Is she willing to go to MC?

Nope, she says she doesn't want to rehash all the old feelings. Last week when she told me that she was going through with the D and I asked her about MC she said no...She says she still remembers sitting on the couch asking me about the rehab and i didn't want to talk w/her about it...Told her I understood and I'm sorry and I wish I could change that but at the time I was so angry with her for "making" me go.

I'm 99.999% sure that the M is done. Of course the ball's in her court because she has to come up with some kind of agreement that she thinks is fair and I think that's going to be harder than she thinks...

The thing that confuses me with her is that when we're together in person you wouldn't think we have any issues. We laugh, joke around there's no tension whatsoever. That's the hardest part of this. Also the fact that she agrees that if we didn't S the M would have worked out but she isn't willing to work it our now...

Exh and I are the same way. When he comes to see baby the first few minutes are tense. Then we start chatting about something trivial or watch baby and laugh and it becomes so comfortable. Like old times (when he was sober). It makes me so sad as when he walks out the door who knows what world he enters then.

My advice to you is communicate to her that you really dont want the D, but make sure you protect yourself legally. I wouldn't be a jerk, but if this is truly what she wants then so be it, but you won't lose time with your kids in the process.

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My advice to you is communicate to her that you really dont want the D, but make sure you protect yourself legally. I wouldn't be a jerk, but if this is truly what she wants then so be it, but you won't lose time with your kids in the process.

She knows I don't want it. Last time we talked about it I told her (probably a mistake)that she was being selfish...She asked how...Well you're the only one in the family of four that wants this so I think it's selfish. For you not to want to even TRY to see if we can fix it is selfish.

I told my wife the same thing and she went crazy, somebody told her it was a very brave thing to do. I personally cannot see it in that perspective particularly if your W does not want to engage in C as mine didn't.

No, at the end of the day your W is breaking up a family unit and is only thinking about herself. My W told me she wanted 'me time' as all she has ever done is look after the family. If she has asked me to sit down and talk about our R maybe I wouldn't be going through a D either. I'm afraid your W, like mine is checking out of the marriage.

I will not give up though and I'm sure you won't, its all about DR and patience and plenty of it from what I read.

All the best,

Mark

OK guys,

I am in the position of having trust issues, H and I are S and I am having a hard time with the idea of reuniting under the same roof. Here's part of my thinking which I share because it may be what your W is going through... since we are S, and we have a chance to make a "new" decision, (in other words, if we could do it over, would I make the same decision?)

The problem with this thinking is that the decision to be committed has already been made. S are meant to be shortterm and allow room for problems to be worked out without a D. There are no do-overs.

If your W is telling you that she doesn't want to get into the "old " feelings -then forget it - she still feels for you what was there before so things can be worked out. Just my opinion.
You have been very patient and will have all our support here for whatever decision you make.

I would suggest that if you want her, go after her. Don't hold back as long as you can be sure that it won't set you back. But it is just an opinion.

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I would suggest that if you want her, go after her. Don't hold back as long as you can be sure that it won't set you back.

I've been thinking long and hard about this exact thing. What I've done so far has, I think, brought us to a friends stage. I'm thinking maybe I should do some of the things when we first started dating so that she sees the "love" I have for her. Really what do I have to lose at this point, I'm not going to beg or plead or cry, I think, I'm just going to push a little more into the romantic area.

Great idea....just don't feel rejected if she is hot and cold. It will probably tell you whether she is interested or not.

Well now that I posted that I'm not sure what actions to take...:).
I've been trying to think what her reactions might be if I say sent her a nice card and I really have no idea. If I had to guess it would be either no acknowledgment or a thank you...I don't think I'd get I told you it's over so don't do that anymore, but I'm not sure...

Hmmmmm....I am trying to put myself in her shoes assuming she is sitting on the fence trying to make a decision. Maybe do one or two romantic gestures (not over the top ones) and see what the reaction is. Watch her face. If she seems sincere then maybe do a few more. If she looks uncomfortable, but is trying to be nice then I wouldn't do that anymore.

Now, if there is any doubt in your mind that she is done and just trying to play nice for the kids or her own guilt then I wouldn't do anything. I would go with the complete 180. Let her think she has lost you and you don't need her anymore. Right now she knows you are right there. If she had some thoughts of you moving on then maybe she would change her tune.

You know more than anyone what she may be feeling.

Got a VM from W about some testing D had to do for school. Weird since she never really calls. Every time I talk to her or hear her voice I just wonder how close is she to finishing the agreement for the D. I wonder how much harder it is that I put it on her and am not going to help her. I wonder when are we going to tell the kids about the finality of our M, this is the hardest thing as EVERY TIME we're together as a family they always ask me to stay with them and ask why I have to go...

Weird W just called and invited me to dinner...I'm wondering if tonight's the night for the papers...I'm prepared either way.

Keep us informed, hope all goes well.

Checking for an update

Well so yesterday she calls to invite me to dinner. When she's asking I can't remember her sounding so nervous, it was strange...She it was such a nice night and she wanted to eat out on the deck...I figured what the heck, if I'm going to get D papers I'm going to get them.

We eat, I help the K's with homework. Give the kids a bath read stories put them to bed, ect. I stick around for a bit after the kids are in bed to give her a chance to bring ANYTHING up but we just chat and I leave.

Having dinner is not unusual we've done it many times...The REALLY unusual part is this is only the second time in TWO YEARS that she's invited me to dinner out of the blue.

Now recapping three weeks ago today she said we're done no fighting no I hate you just it's not going to work...One week ago today (not sure what's up with her and Thursdays)she calls and wants to work out a settlement together...Then we have yesterday...

I really can't figure this out and any and all input would be appreciated.

So it was just friendly chit chat? Very strange. I have no words of advice. I would just stay the course and like the old saying..."hope for the best, but prepare for the worst"

Yep just chit chat very friendly no tension all was good...I don't get this AT ALL. My guard is obviously up with this since it makes no sense. I'm going to see her again tonight since D has Tball. I really think this is the most confused I've been about our R in the last two years.

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I really can't figure this out and any and all input would be appreciated.

Don't waste energy and time trying to figure her out. What control do you have? You spent how much time worrying about getting the D papers at dinner and it didn't happen.
Know that you are being watched. You can control your thoughts, feelings and actions. Your choice - try to figure her out and all her moves or work on yourself. Do what is healthy and the most productive for you. You can handle it.
Cheers

That's the thing I'm not "worried" about the papers, I'm expecting them and I'm good or at least as good as possible. It's just last night threw me for a huge loop. I usually read people very well, part of my job, and I have no read on her. I guess as the saying goes whatever will be will be. The good thing is I don't have to act like I'm having fun or enjoy her when we're together because I do and that's totally because of the work I've done/doing on me.

I posted this to you on my thread but wanted to make sure you saw it:

I really have alot of respect for you and other addicts in recovery. You realized the problem, did the work, and made the change. Thats why when I read your posts on your thread I want to scream at your wife that life could be a heck of alot worse. You didn't betray her. You got help. I wish my exh was like you.

Just keep doing the right thing!!

Volleydog,

Sounds like a great night, and that your W is starting to have second thoughts, and may be testing the waters with you to see what your response is. It could be a double edged sword - maybe she fears loss of control because you've dropped the rope, or maybe she truly is seeing changes in you and that has started to change her heart.

My only advice would be to keep doing what you are doing, positive PMA guy when you see her tonight, let her engage you and don't pursue her. If she doesn't (which is likely, generally a draw back after an advance) just be the happy go lucky volleydog living in the moment enjoying your D's Tball game. Like coach said - Know that you are being watched.

SO2...Thank you very much for the kind words, I wish you could scream at my W also :):)...I wish I could tell you exh how much better his life could be.

song...Thanks....I'm just going to go and have a great time no matter what, never let them see you sweat...

My boss who's been helping through this thinks I should just ask her what's up with last night...I don't think that's the right approach to take yet but the other advice he's given has been spot on.

Why not just let last night be what it was? Don't jump at every crumb you get. Be cool, confident and in control. Let her come to you. I get my cat to jump in my lap by ignoring her. If I call my cat she ignores me and acts all "whatever."

Us male LBS tend to be like dogs. All excitable, eager to please, and devoted. Not time for that right now. Need to be mysterious and composed. You can handle it.
Cheers

Yep you're right Coach...The hard part is I finally had my mind wrapped around the fact that limbo was over, it still very well could be...It's just last night gave me a sliver of hope so my mind is doing cartwheels right now.

Volleydog,

What is the simplist explanation? Your W has feelings for you still. What she wants to do with that is try... how easy will that be? you can guess that one. Definitely testing waters and watching your reaction. Just be yourself with her - sure. Let her know how you felt about the other night. Expect her to be her - unsure. Let it be ok.

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Just be yourself with her - sure.

It's funny you post that because it's what I've been thinking about most of the day.

One of the first times we did MC she said something(I don't remember what it was) but I remember saying I don't know how you want me to act...WOW...How YOU want ME to act...

It took me MONTHS and MONTHS to decide I don't care (not in a bad way0 how she wants me to act, I'm not going to act, I'm going to be ME. Since that day I have, I've been me. Most of the time it's been a happy fun person but just like anyone else I have my days were I'm pi$$ed off or something. I'm NOT going to act in front of her, I'm not going to take it out on her either but she needs to know THIS IS ME take it or leave it.

So tonight tball game went as I expected she was a little/lot less interactive than last night. One thing she did that I don't like but she has no idea, she wore the three stone diamond ring I got her for our 10yr anniversary. She doesn't wear it very often at all, at least around me and I really don't like to see it on her.

I probably wasn't the funniest person tonight either since I got a call from my boss that one of the owners of our company wants to have a conf call tonight at 10pm...Got the call at tball so the W knows that's why my mood went from happy to a little po'd. Like I said though I'm not going to hide things like that because IF we do get back together I want her to know I have more emotions and feelings other than happy...and one thing I don't do is act depressed or defeated in front of her because I'm NOT.

You and Kass are sort of in the same boat. I believe your wife may have interest in R, but needs some time or convincing. Just keep being you. If something changes either way, you will know.

Blindsided and I....well we are dealing with really screwed up men! Just trying to protect our little girls without getting sucked back in emotionally.

Thanks

I realized a while ago that I have to be me because IF we get back together it has to be because she wants me not someone I project around her.

You and blindsided...WOW...I really feel for both of you because I really can't understand "men" that can do that. But you just keep looking after that little girl...since I'm on to posting song lyrics and finally get my focus back on God if you get a chance listen to this song...

Destined to Win by Degarmo & Key...

This songs to all the people
With light in their hearts
And love in their eyes.
You don't have to worry
When the mountains seem of infinite size.

There is one who goes before you to calm the sea.
There's a king who leads his people to victory.

We are Destined to Win
We're surrounded by his Love
And guarded by his power.
Destined to Win
Following the Lord until the battles over.
We are Destined to Win

We all get discouraged
When the pressures of life start weighing us down
We've learned that in his footsteps
Crosses in life must preceed the crowns.

There is one who goes before you
To calm the sea.
There's a king who leads his people to victory.

We are Destined to Win
We're surrounded by his Love
And guarded by his power.
Destined to Win
Following the Lord until the battles over.
We are Destined to Win

We've got to remember
It's our destiny to win the end
With Christ on our side
We are Destined to Win.

We are Destined to Win
We're surrounded by his Love
And guarded by his power.
Destined to Win
Following the Lord until the battles over.
Destined to Win

We're surrounded by his Love
And guarded by his power.
Destined to Win
Following the Lord until the battles over.

We are Destined
We are Destined
We are Destined to Win

One last comment tonight, it was you that fell in love with your W and the person who won her heart the first time. If it happened once it can happen again.

Just want to vent and have a tiny pity party for myself then let it go...MIL is coming down next week for a week, that is never a good thing as far as our R goes...Love my MIL but she doesn't help things. I'm pretty sure she's coming down to help W box up stuff for me, no real other reason for her to come down for a week.

Anyway vent/pity party over, back to my PMA...:)

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Just want to vent and have a tiny pity party for myself then let it go...MIL is coming down next week for a week, that is never a good thing as far as our R goes...Love my MIL but she doesn't help things. I'm pretty sure she's coming down to help W box up stuff for me, no real other reason for her to come down for a week.

Why are they going to box up stuff for you? You do it. That's mothering behavior and you want to put a end to that. Set a boundary, it will help you feel better.

I'm not positive they are...but it sort of makes sense. I don't want to ask in case I'm wrong, I think that would look weak and scared. I feel neither of those things.

No, don't ask...and don't assume. I say that with a smile because I am the queen of assuming. You never know. Just stay the course.

Is your MIL in favor of your M or wanting her daughter to get a D?

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Is your MIL in favor of your M or wanting her daughter to get a D?

Great question and I don't know the answer. If I had to guess she would prefer for us to stay M but wants W to be happy and will support her either way...The good thing is I still get along really well with MIL and FIL.

I really just wish I could get the dinner from Wed night out of my mind but it's still there. I'm a very analytical type person and try to find the answers to EVERYTHING and it bothers me not to have answers...For the vast majority of my life I've been a black and white type thinker, which I'm slowly changing but it's still there sometimes.

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For the vast majority of my life I've been a black and white type thinker, which I'm slowly changing but it's still there sometimes.

Black and white is great for math, engineering, medicine and accounting. Relationships revolve around emotions that are carnation red, pansy purple, ocean blue, sun yellow, baby skin pink, pine needle green, tangerine orange, pure white, and dense black. So your thinking has to include all of your senses, heart and soul.

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be black and white in relationships. They are constantly changing and all different. All of my long term, successfully married friends seem to just roll with the punches. They are unhappy about something they both work together to fix it. Not run away from it. Divorce is not an option.

I realized part of my problem is...It's all these bombs that I'm never ready or expect, I know that's why they're bombs...First one two years ago, next 1.5 years ago, 1 year ago, six months ago, three weeks ago finally one week ago, but then everything goes back to the way it was prebomb...Maybe this one is the final one but she sure isn't acting like it is.

Checking in.

Had a GREAT weekend with the kids just dropped them off with the W. Great weather all weekend sux today but oh well. Was supposed to play golf but the rain has put that off but I am going to a cookout later today.

One thing I was thinking about this weekend. I really think all the "delays" by my W is because when she brings up the D she doesn't get the reaction from me she expects. I think she expects no contact by me and me being cold to her, when she doesn't get that she doesn't know what to do...Just a thought.

Very well could be.

Glad you had a fun weekend with kids. They always make it more enjoyable.

See what this week brings.

Stay steady, keep putting one foot in front of the other toward what you want.

Originally Posted By: kassie

Stay steady, keep putting one foot in front of the other toward what you want.

I just wish I knew what that was it seems to change almost daily. For some reason yesterday and so far today I want it over. I almost called her last night to see where she was with the paperwork...I didn't but I'm almost at the point of just doing it myself and filing.

Do something else when you get those knee jerk reactions. I regret so much acting on impulse. If you are feeling antsy that is understandable as you have been separated a long time with no resolution either way. Maybe in your own mind give yourself a deadline and reevaluate then. If things are on the right track then just let it be, if not then maybe think about what you want for your future. You have been apart for almost 2 years.

Hope you have a good day!

Start with you are HERE = that says what you hope for = a reconciliation. Things need to progress in that direction = over on my post I posted goals and progress. I was taught to do that when I first arrived here so that I could tell to what was happening, what worked and what didn't work. Seemed simple, but it helps me to stay on track.

There have been many times that I wanted to quit and move forward because I was tired, frustrated, or angry. It didn't matter the reason, but my father had a saying that I live by = he said that nothing is a mistake if you learn from it. It helps me to not feel so useless or having wasted time.

Give the goals another try, list what has changed during your S and what needs to grow/heal. My best guess about the "bombs" is that either the communication is missing or there is some other disconnect between you and your W. Anyway, you can be consistent even if she isn't. From my experience, going with the changeableness of moods or motives doesn't work.

What do you lose if you try? What do you lose if you don't try?

I'm in sort of a "funk" today, didn't get to talk with my k's last night. Whenever in-laws are into my communications with k's goes why down, not on purpose or anything, it just does. I will get to see my k's tomorrow night my D is "graduating" from kindergarten and they're putting on a play so that will be fun.

I'm still trying to decide if I just want to tell W lets just get this over with if it's gonna happen it's gonna happen...One funny/strange thing I've noticed is my W is actually asking me about my day what I'm doing ect...The reason I say that is because for the longest time she NEVER inquired about what I was doing EVER.

Kassie as for a list of goals I have no idea what they are right now, but I will give it some thought./

Your kids are probably busy and entertained with inlaws in town. I wouldn't take it personally. K graduation...I remember that well. So cute.

Let me give you another side to your thoughts and I may be out in left field here. My first exh (my older kids dad) and I had a very friendly divorce. In fact, now we say it was a huge mistake and we were just dumb and immature. Anyway, we have always gotten along well. We talk about stuff, our kids and he even helped me through my D with exh. Its always been comfortable and easy to get along with him. I would rather have it that way then the anxiety I feel with this exh. My point? Don't read too much into her friendliness. It may be something triggering thoughts or it just may be comfortable to her and in her mind she may be slipping into the routine. Not trying to be a downer here, but just don't overanalyze...from the queen of analyzing $\:\)$

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Your kids are probably busy and entertained with inlaws in town. I wouldn't take it personally.

I don't at all I really do like my inlaws.

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Don't read too much into her friendliness. It may be something triggering thoughts or it just may be comfortable to her and in her mind she may be slipping into the routine. Not trying to be a downer here, but just don't overanalyze...from the queen of analyzing

I'm trying not to, but it's just hard. Ever since that dang dinner last week I've been on the roller coaster by myself thinking and rethinking everything. I just need to get control of myself again.

I hate to add to your confusion, but I interpret things with your W as positive moves. Partly understand the "comfort" level idea that SO2 talks about - I have a similiar R with my exh too as she does - but we both moved on.

Anyway, I guess the point being that there are many ways to see a sitch or event. Re-read my post about the possible reasons for your feeling "bombed" more than once and then think about goals.
Start with the ones you had in the beginning, ones that you added since then or changed, and then what still remains true to you and your idea of M.

Doing analytical puzzles helps to shift the brain from moods to rational thoughts and behavior. That is one reason setting goals may help. Crosswords, sudukos etc also work.

Let me know if I can help.

Checking in on you Volleydog. I like Kassie's suggestions about moving your mind elsewhere if you can.

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I like Kassie's suggestions about moving your mind elsewhere if you can.

Easiest way to get someone with the hiccups to stop is to ask them, "what was the first thing you did when when you got up this morning?" Make them be specific. Works like a charm.
You lead your mind by challenging it.

That is a great idea Kassie...Much better today...

Had a long talk with my boss about the events of the last week and one thing I think I left out here was the big fight we had last Monday night. Fight was totally my fault it was really stupid and I felt like crap all day last Tuesday. I call her on my way out from work to tell her how sorry I was, probably the best apology I've EVER given her...It was the next day with the invite to dinner the change in her "way" around me...

Anyhow for about the last month my GAL has been for crap because of work, been working till 11pm or later almost every night. Boss tells me to get out at 5pm or I'm fired...So went to a poker game I hadn't been to in a month and it was great. One of the best things and it sounds stupid but when people you don't really know ask you if everything's ok since you haven't been around in awhile.

I'm really looking forward D's graduation and play tonight that'll be fun.

S0, her change may be related to hearing something from you that shows her your change.

This is what is working on me with my H - he is taking responsibility like never before minus the pity party. He is saying things which show me a change in his thinking pattern. Perhaps this is true for you.

So the graduation tonight...Was great...I'm sure all the parents on here think their kids are cute, and I'm sure they are but my D has to be the cutest little girl in the world :). She started doing this thing with pictures, posing like she in some beauty pageant started TODAY. Just cracked me up asked W about it and she was just as surprised. All the kids looked so cute in the cap and gowns.

Meet a couple, that I have known since I was 10, today and apparently our D's have been going to the same preschool for 3 years and we just never ran into each other. They knew who my girl is since I have a very unique last name.

W and I as usual got along great MIL was there got along great with her. Only part that hurt and only for about ten minutes. W got a babysitter/nanny for the summer and I hadn't met her, she is the D of the owner of the daycare. W asked if I wanted to meet her she'd introduce me, sure I thought...W said "this is D and S father...OUCH...Then I thought how else would she introduce me the girl obviously knows I don't live there so that was the "bad" part...

Just really fun seeing D up there singing and getting her diploma, dang she's cute...

This is my song for when she starts dating (at 25+)...

The Declaration of Independence
Think I could tell you that first sentence
But then I�m lost

I can't begin to count the theories
I've had pounded in my head
That I forgot

I don't remember all that Spanish
Or the Gettysburg address
But there is one speech from high school
I'll never forget

(Chorus)
Come on in boy sit on down
And tell me about yourself
So you like my daughter do you now?
Yeah we think she's something else
She's her daddy's girl
Her momma's world
She deserves respect
That�s what she'll get
Ain�t it son?
Hey y'all run along and have some fun
I'll see you when you get back
Bet I�ll be up all night
Still cleanin' this gun

Well now that I�m a father
I�m scared to death one day my daughter
Is gonna find
That teenage boy I used to be
That seems to have just one thing on his mind

She�s growin' up so fast
It won't be long before
I�ll have to put the fear of god into
Some kid at the door

(Chorus)
Come on in boy sit on down
And tell me about yourself
So you like my daughter do you now?
Yeah we think she's something else
She's her daddy's girl
Her momma's world
She deserves respect
That�s what she'll get
Now ain't it son?
Y�all go out and have some fun
I'll see you when you get back
Probably be up all night
Still cleanin' this gun

Now it's all for show
Ain�t nobody gonna get hurt
It�s just a daddy thing
And hey, believe me, man it works

(Chorus)
Come on in boy sit on down
And tell me about yourself
So you like my daughter do you now?
Yeah we think she's something else
She's her daddy's girl
Her momma's world
She deserves respect
That�s what she'll get
Now ain't it son?
Y�all run along and have a little fun
I'll see you when you get back
Probably be up all night
Still cleanin' this gun

Son, now y'all buckle up and have her back by te- let's say about nine...thirty.
Drive safe.

Originally Posted By: volleydog

W asked if I wanted to meet her she'd introduce me, sure I thought...W said "this is D and S father...OUCH...Then I thought how else would she introduce me the girl obviously knows I don't live there so that was the "bad" part...

Hey Volleydog,

Yes, these things really hurt, but dont let them.. let them roll right off. I can tell you that my W once introduced me as her "Soon To Be Ex Husband" (those exact words). We are now very happily married and discussing renewing vows and lots of big family plans, both very happy and very close.

Hang in there

X thank for the post Im actually good, happy. That's just the first time for that.

One other thing they did a slide show with all the kids pics one section was with family members. Watching this I was wondering what pics w picked...no idea what the criteria was...it was a pic of the four of us from Christmas...not reading ANYTHING into that it was just nice of W.

Do you hear how you feel about the "family" and your "M"?

I get what you're saying Kassie but being friends doing our own thing can only last so long. I just don't get how we can talk have fun get along great and at the same time she wants nothing to do with our M...It's been almost two years I'm just not sure how much longer I want to live like this. IF I saw some hope or movement on her part then sure but I don't really see it.

I'll never be the one to file but once she does I won't slow it down either.

Originally Posted By: volleydog

I get what you're saying Kassie but being friends doing our own thing can only last so long. I just don't get how we can talk have fun get along great and at the same time she wants nothing to do with our M...It's been almost two years I'm just not sure how much longer I want to live like this. IF I saw some hope or movement on her part then sure but I don't really see it.

I'll never be the one to file but once she does I won't slow it down either.

That is why I think you need to give yourself a deadline. You have been S for two years. Now, if you were S and she says lets go to MC, dates, work on our M and work towards living together again that would be different. Two years is alot longer than 3, 6 or even 9 months. At this rate your wife may go on like this forever...maybe not. I would hate to see you wait for years then have her decide she doesn't want the M and you have wasted a long time in limbo. You will be very angry and resentful.

I may have missed this...but have you really sat down with her lately and had a heart to heart on what the future holds?

I am not sure she wants nothing to do with the M... she would go ahead with the D. Seems like you are both at a standstill refusing to be the one who initiates either way. If you want it to work you have to act that way - if you don't want it then act that way.

I agree with SO2 about having an honest talk. You have a lot of choices and yet talk as though you don't. She is doing the same. How are doing on setting up goals? It will make things clearer.

Still thinking about the goals, I'm really not sure...

Weird thing happened today she forwarded me one of those emails, send to six people hit f6* and the love of your life's name will appear, she sent it to her sister and me. Now I am NOT reading into the content of the email but the email itself is weird. I probably send and receive 100 emails a day she HATES email HATES IT. I would send her emails about stuff and never get a response I had to finally tell her just let me know if you got them since I know you only check yours once every few days. That's how much she hates email, it's been that way forever (email forever).

So I sent back an email asking did it work (it won't)? IF she responds no I'm going to reply so it wasn't my name if yes so it was me told you...

*For those that don't know PLEASE don't do something like this with emails. I'm sure she has no idea what f6 does and it really doesn't matter what it does don't do anything that an email tells you unless you know what's going to happen or you asked someone you trust to help you with something.

Out of curiosity...what does F6 do?

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Out of curiosity...what does F6 do?

It depends on what applications you have open, how you access your email, ect. Unless you know you shouldn't do it, there's too many viruses out there to take a chance.

Ok, well i won't be doing that!

If I let it happen, exh and I would engage in this kind of texts. He wants nothing more than to be my buddy. Not sure why. Keep tabs? Keep me emotionally tied to him and not move on? So things are easy with baby? Make him feel less guilty if I am 'ok' with this? Who knows? He would love to have lots of text conversations with me. I shut it down as I know he can juggle alot of women at once and his motives are most likely not the best. I am not saying that your wife and my exh are the same...not at all. Just try not to read much into it.

So today went to D's tball game W and MIL were there, once again a great outing.

As we're leaving W asks if I know anything about powerwashing she got FIL powerwasher to clean her deck. Told her yes does she need help, she says shes not sure but I'm dressed too nice to help. MIL says I think we need help...Walking to cars after game W asks if I wouldn't mind helping since the directions are complicated, she is probably one of the smartest people I know...So she asks if I can come over and help...She could have easily done this she could have figured this out...it's almost like she's pulling a 180 on me.

SO2...I'm trying not to read anything into this BUT she HATES email and if I had to guess in her life she's sent no more than 10 texts.

How was the weekend!? Hope it was good.

It was great played golf yesterday...I stunk but it was fun.

I had to bite my tongue about something W said last night. I asked if D was going to do Tball tomorrow since it's supposed to rain. She well she made a commitment to it and I want her to live up to her commitments...I guess it's a do as I say not as I do situation but it took everything I had not to say something.

Yeah those are ones we bite our tongues clear off! She probably had no clue what she said either.

Glad you had fun at golf.

Was with W and K's at D's Tball game...I realize that over the past two+ weeks I've been getting a different vibe from W. Hard to explain but it's there and I don't know what to make of it. She's much more open not with anything she says but how she is, she was much more closed...Not sure what to do with this info, but I know it's there and not my imagination.

One can rationalize anything just as they want to see or hear it... anyway... I suggested before that being on this side of things that it seems your W may be open to working things out and it is all the more reason for you to be sure of what you want.
How are the goals going? I am telling you that it makes things easier to tell.

Goals...that's a tough one...I've always been very goal oriented I swam through college always had time goals and knew the training it would take...sales I know what I have to do to reach my goals...my M no idea all the goals I've set I've had control of I know I want m to work but right I can't figure out any short term goals. I have set a deadline and on that day if we are still where were at I'm going to tell her to push this forward or go to mc. It's not that far off.

What would the steps moving in one direction look like to you and her? More talking? Dinners? Emails? Attitude adjustment? Are you looking at too large a picture? One doesn't just decide to work on the M or go to counseling without some reasons and ideas of what will be worked on MC will ask you the same questions.

When I set goals for the M they were a lot like this:
NO drinking, NO arguing, No R talK, Friendly convo, Laughing, having fun activity, respect shown, more listening and less self talking, and so on. Each time we had an encounter I checked off what happened and that way I got to be objective. Early on, things were going positive for three weeks and then they went south. I was sorely dissappointed until I looked at my goals and the checks and saw that this was one night out of three weeks. Put a perspective on the night.

I also recorded firsts - first weekend without conflict, first time he showed interest in my kids, first time he went for counseling, meetings, and church etc.

I know you have been at this for a long time that is why I suggested starting with what were your goals in the beginning? How have they changed? What makes sense now?

Do you want to spend more time together? Date? Talk more? ML?
Break the process down into smaller steps.See if this helps.

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Do you want to spend more time together? Date? Talk more? ML?

yes, yes, yes, YES!!!

As I've said when we're together it's great no tension we laugh joke talk about our days ect...The problem is we've been S so long I'm not sure what to do next and maybe she isn't either. I want to ask her our but just a month ago she said she couldn't/wouldn't do that without MC and she doesn't want to do MC. It's three weeks since she said she wanted to work on a D agreement, nothings been said or done since(that I know of).

I guess I'm at a loss on what to do. I want more of a R with her at the same time I don't want to lose the "good" I have now with pushing since it hasn't been that long since she said she wanted the D.

Volley -- want to ask her our but just a month ago she said she couldn't/wouldn't do that without MC -- this strikes me as a perfect scenario for a Spy. Do something covert. Surely there's something you two need to discuss, look over, consult on, etc.

Remember the way one used to get a "date" but not a "date date"? Um, I wonder if we might sit down over lunch, and.....?

So create these no-pressure dates-that-aren't-dates, and let her see that the two of you can be "out" "together" without being "together." Maybe that would take off the pressure of being "asked out."

SP...I've been trying to figure out how to do that exact thing. Problem is W doesn't really eat lunch much at least not out of the office. I believe she is in the same field as you and Mrs.SP so she usually just grabs what the reps drop off then back to work. Don't think I could ever pull it off for a dinner since that would require babysitter ect...

I think Smiley has a good suggestion. Figure out something that doesn't sound like a date.

I believe you can call your county recorder's office and see if anything has been filed. Doesn't sound like she has, but if it puts your mind at ease you can call.

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I believe you can call your county recorder's office and see if anything has been filed. Doesn't sound like she has, but if it puts your mind at ease you can call.

I don't think it matters one way or the other, plus I'm 99% sure she'd tell me.

This may be a stupid question but W and I belong to the same pool. When I don't have the K's I still go just to read and whatnot. I try and sit where I don't think they would see me, not trying to hide but just figure it's her time and I don't want to infringe on that. Last weekend about a half hour before I left I saw her with K's didn't say anything just left when i was ready. Should I have said something? I don't want my kids to see me and think I'm ignoring them...Like I said stupid but stupid things sometimes occupy my mind.

Excuse me V - but you are missing a few marbles I think - if you are both there at the same time a)go up to her ask if she minds you sitting with the family, b)ask her when she is going or call her when you are going to see about meeting there, c) continue to co-exist awkwardly in front of the K and whole world. Excellent opportunity on the spot or in advance.

I would check on whether she filed or not and I certainly would let her know that things seem turned around- can we talk about where we are going or what comes next?

And if I come on too strong just holler back at me - I can take it.

You can tell I am much in favor of talking things out in the open or at least let the other person what's on my mind and allow them to consider a response then or later. You are sooooo expecting a bad outcome. Think about what you would do if you were positive.

Perhaps ask if you can schedule MC to discuss next step.

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a)go up to her ask if she minds you sitting with the family, b)ask her when she is going or call her when you are going to see about meeting there, c) continue to co-exist awkwardly in front of the K and whole world. Excellent opportunity on the spot or in advance.

I just don't want to put her in a position where she feels like she has to let me hang out. I've thought about b, which I think is the best option. C there is no awkwardness since the place is huge and when they're there I know where they'll sit, it's sort of the "family section" I'm in the "single people section".

I really don't care if she has or hasn't filed sure I could call today and find out but it really doesn't matter, I'm sure to find out when she does.

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You are sooooo expecting a bad outcome.

I think you're right about this sort of it's more afraid of a bad outcome so I don't do anything as far as the M.

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You can tell I am much in favor of talking things out in the open or at least let the other person what's on my mind and allow them to consider a response then or later.

You're right of course.

This morning on her way to work she calls me which is soooo unusual. She's sounding upset and couldn't quite get going with her thoughts...I'm thinking uh oh...She tells me last night someone cut three branches off a little (and I mean little) sapling I planted for her. She's really upset and so am I what the heck is wrong with people. To cut branches off a two foot tree...Anyway she's ok now just po'd.

She wants to be your friend. She wants things to be friendly. Who wouldn't in either situation of divorced or together? It's the ideal situation. This is how my first exh and I talk. You are familiar. You are safe. Once again, not saying its an indicator of her feelings but just trying to get you to understand so you don't judge things like this as an indicator of the future.

I am still voting for the open communication in your sitch.

SO2 thanks and I completely understand that the thing is we were friendly before for the last year + it's just been in the last few weeks that she's been doing things that she hasn't done for over a year.

I'm all cool with the friendly, no problem. Even when/if we D I'll be friendly. I just need to man up and ask her what's going on, in a nice way or maybe just ask how things are coming with the work she is doing on a settlement.

Originally Posted By: volleydog

I'm all cool with the friendly, no problem. Even when/if we D I'll be friendly. I just need to man up and ask her what's going on, in a nice way or maybe just ask how things are coming with the work she is doing on a settlement.

I think thats a great idea! If YOU ask her how things are going she may ask herself wtf is going on!? Almost like you are ok either way. Try it. You never know. It may knock her off the fence.

I could use some feedback on my post.

Anything new VD?

Nah not really...Only thing is...and I know you're going to give me a quick 2x4 for this but really I'm not reading anything into things...Last night when I called to talk with the kids W gets on the phone after (like always)we talk for a few then I try and go pretty much always lets me, last night four different times she brought something else up to talk about...Just out of character for her based on the last two years.

Anyway tomorrow is going to be great...I'm taking my son to a bball game and with the cubscouts we camp out overnight at the field, and it's my bday. Really looking forward to that.

Seeing that VD cracks me up every time...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!

Ok, I won't give you a 2x4 on your bday...even though I could use many myself.

Oh you can Bday is tomorrow...:)

Have a happy BD! Enjoy your time with kids!

There's always time for the lashes later. But I am not sure what they are for? Seems like things are going moving along, you are picking up her clues and the only question I have is, how are you responding to the openings?

Just got a notice of a filing for contested d hearing. Now it's dated may 13 which is before I noticed these differences the dinner ect got to ask her about this.

Woah!, I see what you mean by her blindsiding you all the time. She does send mixed signals. I would ask her what she intends at this point and go dark. This doesn't make any sense. It isn't you -

What can I do for you?

I'm not sure right now...funny thing I'm not really upset at all...I'm just more interested in what she has to say.

Earlier, my H and I went back and forth with the threats of D everytime there was a disagreement. At least once a week - and then things would be fine. It is possible that the two of you or one of you had a pattern of this kind of behavior? Impulsive behavior?

So I just asked are we not working this d out between us? She says why...tell her what I got...she said she did that but her L said it would be better if we worked it out between us and she never got anything in the mail...she said we if we don't we have a court date in nov...ok I don't have anything that says that. Then she just starts chatting I say I've got to go she says kind of sad I guess I have to go to...then starts talking again...I tell her again I need to go and do...

One thing she told me at the start of the conv is that she is working on the settlement but she hasn't as of the day after she told me five weeks ago...2x4 I was over there two days after she told me five weeks ago and found a spreedsheet she was woeking on...not from snooping I used her computer for work and of was open...but...this past Thursday I was over and did snoop...duck...looked at the spreadsheet and nothing was changed...

So now looking back over the last few weeks I guess I shouldn't have questioned her actions...she finally came to a decision and was just more relaxed.

I am sorry V. Not what was expected. Thoughts about going dark to see if anything changes?

I thinking about sending her something like the following:

Dear W,

This is probably the hardest thing I've ever written you. Though you D is not what I want I know you feel it's your only option at this point. Baring going to http://www.retrouvaille.org/ or some other MC I think we should get this D done as soon as possible.

Whether you realize it or not the last few weeks you've been very different to me starting with you inviting me to dinner, I'm still confused about that since you've only done that once in the last two years. I guess I was thinking that working on a finality of D gave you second thoughts. While I loved the invite and dinner I was giving myself false hope and I can't live like that anymore. So the sooner we can work this out the better I think.

What are you plans on telling the kids?

Love always
x

Im sorry VD. One thing I have learned is that you never assume anything with the WAS behavior. There could be many motives behind it.

I agree with Kass. Try and go dark as much as you can.

I've thought about that and I'm not sure what I would be doing it for. At this point I have NO doubt we are going to D I just have to decide how fast I want it to happen.

One other thing...wtf is up with my R and Thursday's, this is the forth or fifth time I've gotten bad news on a Thursday...:)

HA! Not sure about the Thursday thing. Maybe just stay in bed and don't communicate with anyone.

When exh and I were going thru our D, I made him do all the work. I waited until the last possible day to sign papers, get information etc. All it did was tick exh off and make me feel pathetic. A divorce is just a piece of paper. If you two are meant to R then it will happen.

I know your W is not at all like my exh, but thier thinking is so strange. All thru our separation/divorce the first time we were still seeing eachother and sleeping together. I was holding on for dear life. He would spend a weekend with me and then Monday would have this revealation that we could never work. It was a pattern. One weekend we spent together and then Monday came and I was served D papers. HE knew they were coming, never said a word. Most WAS are avoiding conflict. If you read most threads they either hide and avoid contact or they try and act like this is all normal.

Oh, Is today your Bday? Its my daughters too!

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HA! Not sure about the Thursday thing. Maybe just stay in bed and don't communicate with anyone.

I'm pretty sure that's my plan for next week...

I guess I'm leaning towards not delaying things but making sure I take my time to do what I need to do.

I saw that about your daughters Bday, congrats to you and her...

IMHO I would keep the part about not wanting the D, then tell her how you are surprised to get the papers given the changed behavior.

Ask if she is still unsure and would she like to work it out in MC.

If she says I'm sure - then set a time to plan it and tell the kids. If she says she unsure then tell her you will set up MC to work things out from there in either direction.

What do you think?

V - I don't know if I mentioned it before but when my first M was ending - exh would ask me what we were doing after every meeting with the lawyer and wondered if we could work it out. I always replied that we could talk about it at home after the kids were taken care of. But he never did continue the convo, and I didn't initiate then, I would have dropped the D if he would have talked to me. I assumed he was just scared for a moment and then it wore off later. I assumed he wanted the D. After the D I found out that he was still in love with me and didn't want the D but thought I did. This is why I recommend talking honestly to your W - that way there can be no misunderstandings nor regrets.

Could use some help.

How was your birthday weekend?

It was good...Got off work early to see kids since I would really see my D on Friday. I opened presents with W and K's which was fun, W had on an outfit I got her for Christmas...As I was getting ready to leave I decided I wanted a Bday kiss, so I went over to W put my hands on her cheeks and kissed her, not the most passionate kiss ever but she didn't pull away.

Anyway S and I went to a bball game which was really fun it was with cub scouts so a lot of people there. Game got over we were supposed to camp in the infield but as I was setting up the tent I noticed one of the poles was broke, and it's now midnight. I call the W and tell her were coming there to sleep and let her know what happened. I slept on the couch...

Anyway the rest of the weekend just hung out with the kids...Went to the pool a couple of parks and playgrounds...It was really fun, except for the camping thing me and S were really looking forward to it.

One thing that really pi$$ed me off. I got the letter from the court since her L told her to set a date in case we need one. Well I asked her if she got one (thursday night) she said no (which I know wasn't true). Friday I'm at her place and the cat knocked a bunch of papers off the desk and there was her notice...So I ask her again she looks me in the eye and lies about it again...

Hi Volleydog,

I like the kiss moment... I wonder if she did, and I wonder if she was open to more kisses during the weekend.

Did you call her out on her lie?

Lucky

Hey LG...How are you doin' haven't seen you around in a while.

I wonder if she did also, I don't think she disliked it

...I didn't really see her much the rest of the weekend.

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Did you call her out on her lie?

No and I was torn on that, I WASN'T snooping but I didn't want her to think I was. I also figured what good was going to come out of it, she knows she lied and I'm almost 100% sure she knows I know.

Liked the kiss too.

I wonder why she lied? What is there to hide?

Sounds like a good weekend except for the camping issue. Seems that is the rule with camping...something always breaks or malfunctions.

What is your next step?

Hi Volleydog,

Know that I'm reading along and catching up when I can... I'm with you, just not always actively posting. If you ever want my input, just yell. Otherwise, I promise to chime in when I think I might be of help.

I'm with Startingover... I'm also confused as to why she would lie. Some possibilities that I can think of:

1. She doesn't really want to go through with it, so she's keeping the letter on the "backburner" and is waiting to see what happens before keeping that court date.
2. She didn't want to ruin the nice time you were having together.
3. She has such a difficult time telling you about what's inside her head, that she is covertly planning a swift divorce, not allowing much time for discussion or debate with you. (I don't like this one, and I'm hoping that this isn't it.)

But, there we go guessing what's in someone else's head again. The only way you're going to achieve intimacy is to be intimate, open up, and discuss the 500 lb gorilla in the room. And pepper her with more of those daring kisses!

Lucky

Your input is always very much appreciated Lucky.

Funny thing is I haven't really thought much about the why it's just that she did...But now that you and SO2 brought it up...

out of your three possibilities...

I'd say number one is the most likely...NOT that I'm getting my hopes up...

Number two, not really since I had asked her the night before and that wouldn't have ruined anything she could have just told me she forgot, no big deal. The thing is I had told her last year to let me know if I'm going to get ANYTHING from her L or the courts just so I know it's coming, that's my only problem with this. If she forgot like I said no big deal to me.

Number three, can't happen court date is set for about six months out and can't do it any quicker than that.

The kissing thing I figured what the heck did I have to lose, if she pulled away or gave me a cheek no big deal, but it was my birthday and maybe that's why she let me...:)

I think you might just knock her socks off if you start stealing kisses once in a while... Don't try to guage if she will be receptive. If you're having a nice time and "feeling it," why not?

Another hat in the ring says, yeah! for the kiss! Go for it! I agree with your thoughts about the possibilities raised. Being the spouse, you have heard me go back and forth with my H as he works through his sobriety. (altho I probably lean more towards being open to the R) Seems to me that with an outside date set, she is looking to see what happens between now and then. The first time H got sober in 2007 and relapsed after 6 weeks we talked about D. My L explained how it all worked and what choices I had including starting the process and letting it sit until I wanted to go forward or not at all. Seems like she may be taking the slow route for a reason.

Anything new today?

I guess I am leaning more towards keep trying like you are but still asking her to be upfront in what her plans are.

Checking in... how are you today?

Just a little update, nothing big...

So Tuesday I get an email from her asking if I had some chairs, she uses them when she takes D to soccer...I had them forgot to tell her I took them, no big deal. So I call her and tell her I'll bring them to her, never realized I work only about 10 minutes from one of her offices...So I take her the chairs we chat for about 15-20 minutes...Was kind of stupid she have asked her if she wanted to grab some lunch, I knew she couldn't Tuesdays are her busiest days...anyway should have asked regardless...

Yesterday met her and kids at D's Tball game nice interaction played catch with S so that was fun.

W is taking D camping on Friday to a little park, it's sponsored by the city's parks and rec dept. She telling me how it's going to be hard to lug all the stuff she's going to need...I jokingly say well it wouldn't have been a problem if you invited me...DEAD SILENCE...She then goes on to say she's probably just going to bring the wagon...

She ask me if on Friday I could watch S for about an hour he's going camping with a friend and she's not sure how she can get to park and get S off...I told her maybe I had plans after work but I might be able to come by...She NEVER asks what my plans are

Hi Volleydog
I've learned that while you are right, it would be easier if you were going to be on the camping trip, saying things like that did not help me with my H and used to do it quite a bit. Not a good thing to make them feel guilty, which is basically what it does even though I was hoping it would set off a light bulb "Oh she's right, let's not divorce!"
As for her not asking about your plans, I do believe she desperately wants to but has great great restraint. My H wouldn't ask in the beginning but then started to "What are you plans....what are you doing?.....Who are you texting?.....etc" and I don't say None of your business. I answer the questions but I don't ask him now, UNLESS he's got our S with him and then I want to know where my S will be and doing what.

Quote:

saying things like that did not help me with my H and used to do it quite a bit. Not a good thing to make them feel guilty, which is basically what it does even though I was hoping it would set off a light bulb "Oh she's right, let's not divorce!"

That's a good point I never really thought about it that way. It's the first time I've ever done that and I thought she would take it as a joke but now I know better...Thanks

Exactly, I said things like that too in attempt to lighten the mood completely joking or I was saying it to point out that we should work this out. Either way, it's not received well. Take it from me. I think maybe you could have just flat out offered to help get them there, help set up and take off. That would have been more appreciated.
I don't know about you but I've noticed I don't seem to be as funny as I once was in my spouses' eyes!

Again...dont try and analyze why she doesn't ask about your plans. Look at me! I NEVER ask exh what he is doing, but I do wonder. He always wants to know our plans.

You want your wife home because she wants to be home...not because she feels guilty or needy. I wish we could smack all the WAS on this board and tell thim life doesn't have to be this complicated if they would just realize it! Doesn't work that way. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Be covert. Let her think you are moving on with your life and you are fantastic even without her.

Quote:

you are fantastic even without her.

I am...:)

Originally Posted By: volleydog

Quote:

you are fantastic even without her.

I am...:)

Put that on a sticky note and paste it to your forehead!

Serioulsy? Have you ever tried that? Sorta going underground for a bit. Obviously contact for the kids, but keeping it short and to the point. Look really good and act like you have big plans and are in a hurry, but be sorta secretive. Taking longer to respond to emails or calls unless its an emergency, letting it go to vm. I think right now she knows the sun still rises and sets with her in your mind. I know my exh is a lunatic, but me being distant and secretive drives him crazy. Try it and see what happens.

Quote:

Look really good and act like you have big plans and are in a hurry, but be sorta secretive. Taking longer to respond to emails or calls unless its an emergency, letting it go to vm.

Yep...I sort of switch it up on her, sometimes I will do this, then go back to being a little more available. It's probably about 50/50 letting calls go to VM, emails I pretty much always return right away, it's a habit from work, I get and send 100's of emails a day.

I did the as dark as I can thing for a few months I didn't really notice a difference in her.

I am wondering what is going to happen today since it is Thursday...yikes

What happens on thursdays?

It seems like every time she tells me something bad about our R it happens on Thursdays...I have Thursdayaphobia.

Ahhhh, I have Mondayitis.

Quote:

It seems like every time she tells me something bad about our R it happens on Thursdays...I have Thursdayaphobia.

Hear ye, hear ye. We proclaim that Thursdays will now be further known as VD Day. VD will now be happy, upbeat, bullet-proof and down right silly if need be on VD Day. That's all I'm going to say about that.
Cheers

Invariably, the 6th through the 8th of a month are when my $hit hits the fan...

-W's PA starts
-ILYBINILWY
-"EA" disclosure
-Well, EA was actually a PA disclosure
-W gets "wiggy" on family trip to LV
-W discloses 2nd EA(?)

So, maybe it should be like tall buildings not having a 13th floor... From now on, eliminate the 6th to 8th of each month, as well as all Mondays and Thursdays... We'll lose enough days to have to add about three new months to the end of the year... How about: GALember, PMAtober and 180uary?

Well, I have had years of bad news. I need some good news for a change. So we ban the past few years, the 6th to 8th month, and Mondays and Thursdays. Sound good?

Part of me wishes that also SO2 but I don't think I'd be a very good person right now or at least not in a very good "me" place.

OK you all have been having fun while I was working! Not fair!

Quote:

She ask me if on Friday I could watch S for about an hour he's going camping with a friend and she's not sure how she can get to park and get S off...I told her maybe I had plans after work but I might be able to come by...She NEVER asks what my plans are

So last night I went out to play pool with some friends from work. I notice the W (well S left messages) called about 7:30, I didn't answer, then again at 8:15 then again at 8:40...Our kids never ask to call either of us when they're with the other one, when I have kids W call and vice-versa...The only time the kids call is when one of us asks if they want to call and never more than once...

So I finally called back about five minutes after the last call talked to my kids and W gets on the phone tells me something about S...

I ask anything else, nicely at that point some people were walking out of the bar...She asks where are you...playing pool...W with who...friends...W where...place close to work...me hey I gotta go you can call me later if you want...W long pause, ok...Now she didn't call back but I could tell she was "interested" in where I was and the fact that she had my S call me three times, just sort of makes me think hmmmm....

YES!!! Good for you. Her wheels are spinning. What? What do you mean you are out having fun and not home brooding for me? She is most likely in shock that you didn't answer your phone and you were out and about.

I hate the game. I really do. Its alot of work to always be up and thinking quickly, but I really do think it helps both you and your W see that life does go on. When I get sad I come here and post...to him I am having the best flipping day of my life.

Hope you enjoyed your night out!

See that's the thing....is it really a game? She's made it clear not to ask what she is doing. So it works the other way. And the fact that she is interested all of a sudden in what is going on in your life is only a good thing, but I don't think you are "playing a game" as much as you're doing what you were asked to do.....and she has to do the same for you.
Or maybe it's a game.
Who knows?
Good for you though, either way.

Quote:

I don't think you are "playing a game"

Nope not at all, I decided a long time ago that I was going to be me no matter what. No more always acting happy if I'm not if she calls and I'm in a pissed off mood, she knows it, not in a mean way nor do I take it out on her, I just tell her. It doesn't happen very ofter but it does and if she ever does want the M to work she needs to know I'm not in a great mood all the time, just 99% of the time

.

Oh and she's never told to not ask what she's doing sometimes I do sometimes I don't. She just never, or I guess, almost never asks what I'm doing.

Then the deal with your "child" calling you is a pretty good development. I think we can agree, she wanted to know what you were doing that evening. Keep doing it....keep to the mysterious side! And again, that's not a game to me...that's super sexy!

Well it's time for me to push a one way or the other...she took d camping and asked if I could let the dog out sure it's ony way home...while I was there I looked through the mail because sometimes my stuff still goes there and what did I see...thick envelope from her l dated the tenth...so she must have talked to him probably because working on something on her own was too hard.

I'd like to know how you folks who have been separated for a much longer period of time than I have cope with the lonliness? I sometimes get very, very lonely...not just for female companionship per se...but for her specifically. How do you wade through it?

Winston Churchill said..."If you're going through hell, then keep going!"

That's kind of the attitude that I've been having when I feel really down because I'm so lonesome for her.

Hi V -

Think you are doing good... it's not "game" it's positive manipulation (the way a therapist or sponsor works you)- but I agree with you that just being yourself works best. My whole sitch began when I realized that I needed to be myself - and he would like it or not.

It led at first to increasing problems at first that led up to our S, it led to his self discovery of his problem and getting help, and now it is bringing him back. Not a bad thing to be yourself. My thoughts at the time and still are - if it is going to work it has to be with me being me.

V - my H and I have been having convo's about how our R feels like one that is just starting because he didn't "see me" before. But my part is learning that he didn't hear or see or remember much from before, and as he educates me I am rewriting our history. So instead of thoughts that he did things to hurt me on purpose, I know now that he wasn't able to think or process things through the fog of his A brain. So now I him acting right in the same situaitons without much work. I wonder how much of your W stuff is the same?

Could be Kass.

Since you saw those papers I would keep doing what you are doing but also keep in mind what also may be going on. She may be a conflict avoider and is doing alot of the work behind the scenes to not rock the boat until she has to.

Just make sure you are protected financially and with your kids.

Remember its only a piece of paper.

I'm not sure but I may have been rude to her today...I went to the pool and after I was there I called to let her know if she and K's are coming on of the pools is closed. She said she was and asked if I could save her a chair, sure no problem. Her and the k's got there I was listening to my music and reading a book, I stopped to say hi ect.

Well the kids went to play I put my headphones back on and started reading my book. W just sat next to me just looking around. I guess I should have talked to her or something but I just really had no desire to to talk with her...After about 15 minutes she got up and went to hang out with kids, fifteen minutes after that I left said goodbye to her and k's...Was I rude? I wasn't trying to be rude didn't even think about it till I was driving home...Also I didn't have my ring on, I just don't want a huge tan line when/if we get D...

Originally Posted By: volleydog

.Also I didn't have my ring on, I just don't want a huge tan line when/if we get D...

HA!HA! So funny.

I don't think it was rude. It was reality. You were listening to music and reading your book. If you hear her say she wants to work on things and save this M then yeah maybe it was rude, but shes not. Be friendly but not her best friend.

Does your W wear her ring? This is a big issue with me.

Rude? I don't know. What were thinking about at the time? Why did you leave at that point when everyone was there? Only you know how you felt and what you did. Don't dwell on it. You are trying to be yourself. If you really care - ask her/ tell her, otherwise just let it go.

what did you think about my post to you?

No she doesn't wear her rings but I pushed her to that...I'm still trying to process your last post...whenever a and I talk about r it always ends with her saying she wants d so I don't go there...it never crossed my mind I might have been rude but she satvthere next to me for a while without saying anything...when I went to say goodbye to her and the kids she looked depressed and that made me feel bad.

Hi VD....whats the plan for the week?

Since you got the glimpse of the paperwork then maybe just press on but in the back of your mind know that this D process may be looming soon.

Just keep being you. If she doesn't see what a great guy you are then someone else will!

V--I think you are doing great. If you were doing all of that on purpose, then yes, you were rude. If you were doing it on auto pilot, you were ok. She's the one who made things this way....let her deal with it. You were actually very considerate when you called and then saved her a chair.
No worries.
Keep doing what you're doing.

Well today at d tball game started not good a asked for garage door opener said hers broke...I just say sure the a few min later make a joke that at least now I don't have to come by and let the dog out or anything...she says no I'll make u a key or asks if she can just buy a generic remote and program it...so who knows.

Later she asks if I know anyone who is doing big race in town next year so she can have some people to go with or train with...I say I am doing it sort of a BIG truth stretch but I was going to do it...she was pretty surprised I said I was nothing about training together but we did talk about our training so far...

Pretty sure but not positive the garage door opener was a clue on what's to come...

What do you mean?

Either way just think of the old saying..."hope for the best, but prepare for the worst".

Who knows what is ahead. Just keep being you.

Well information is always good...I called the court just to see what the next step is and there really is none, meaning unless we agree on something we have a court date Nov. 18. So at least I don't have to think about being served more papers. I'm guessing the papers from her L were his idea of a fair settlement to help her.

SO2 I had a post on your thread that I thought I posted that doesn't seem to be there from last night...I'm going to check my iphone to see if I may not have actually hit post.

Originally Posted By: stillloveshim

What do you mean?

Just that she took the opener back because she no longer wants me to have access to the house whenever I want...Course I've never been there when she didn't know. One step closer to totally separate lives.

So she did file something. Well, I guess we knew it was coming and remember its only a stupid piece of paper.

Just protect yourself and your kids. I am sure you will. You never know what can happen in a few months.

Quote:

So she did file something.

No nothing new and thinking about it it would really make no sense to. We have a date already there really wouldn't be anything left unless I guess she decides she wants to just go through her L and not try anything else...Either way it's on her unless the deadline I set comes up before hand.

So I guess if I want my M saved I have five months...

Well my H sent me, via email a divorce/separation agreement that doesn't include child support. I called him to remind him I'm not ending my marriage electonically and reminded him, I am moving, I'm leaving this town. He got worked up and said he didn't want to talk to me anymore. I said OK.
So much of the last 7 months have been completely his say and the way he wanted them. So now, I feel better having made some decisions for me.
I don't really want to take our son away from him, but a very good loved one made a good point: If you are neurotic and crazy, how much good are you going to be to your son?
I plan to leave for about a year to 18 months, go home. Heal. Get my head on straight and my heart back in position for my new life without h.
So I feel for you Volleydog. It sucks.

Don't know what to say... do I hear you saying," I have five months to make it work, or I have five months to see if she changes her mind."

Sorry things look not so encouraging. Do you think you could make a change in the sitch if you wanted to? I feel like I am a lone wolf crying in the wilderness and I may be - I am old fashioned sometimes.

At this point I'm not sure what else I could. I think she has to want to work on the m and everytime we talk about the r she makes clear she wants a d. I would love nothing more to "fix" my m but she has to want to also, at least a little.

Don't get mad... but I am wondering if there is more you can do like try to sweep her off her feet? Or am I reaching here? I don't want to pretend that I know more than you do - it is your life and and R - you know best. My point has been that I keep hearing you on the fence and if it were me - I would react in kind. My H has come for me over and over again almost to his embarrassment, but at least I know how he feels about me and the M. While I wasn't taking a leap at how he feels and believing all will be fine - I knew that he wanted me and the M sober. The rest we have had to work on. He knew that I was shy about trying but was willing to deal with that, he wins me over again by his constant trying.

But I admit that I am always looking for the best in everyone and every sitch. Sometimes I am right and sometimes I am not. What do you have to lose by trying to the point of embarrassing yourself? Most men wouldn't go that far - and it doesn't always work- only you know how far you can take things. I am hoping for the best for everyone involved.

You have been a great support and help. I really do appreciate your effort and time.

not mad at all I'm open to anything. I'm just not sure what to do.

Are you really asking for specific things to say or do? Or still stuck?

If you have any ideas I'm open.

My H started out just asking me to meet him for coffee a few times. He would eventually ask about dating. I suggested spending some time doing active things we both could enjoy - like a picnic, a movie, dinner. He would call during the week just to say hi and casual talk about the week. Then spent some family time together. He always tested the waters for a kiss or hug.

What got to me -was his persistance in pursuing me, his sharing with me the changes he was going through, share the support he was getting and new info learned. He was open with me, I could hear the changes in his thought process. I gradually knew that things would be the same because his thinking was changing.

I have to admit that I was really checking out of the M at the time. When initial attempts to engage failed, I felt our fate was sealed, but at some point things shifted. I felt the difference in his talk, manner, way of doing things. Has been consistent. I wasn't convinced easily. I thought I would be stupid to trust him again. He changed my mind with his talk, his and his behavior. He really has no shame when it comes to me. I have seen his ego get in the way with everything else in his life except me - sometimes yes, but mostly no. I think it is hard to be that open with someone - but he has always been that way with me. It lets me know that we are bonded positively.

Your H sounds like he got some techniques from this website. http://www.magicofmakingup.com/

I have ordered it and looked it over. Pretty good stuff if you can apply it in the right situation. Coffee was one of the things he talks about as well as being able to test the waters.

He may not have. But it just sounds familiar. It might be worth you looking at VD.

Kevin

VD,

About the Magic of Making Up stuff, it's exactly the same as DB. The difference is that they recommend going dark for 1 month (at least) and then calling up the partner for coffee to "re-connect".

So like DB says, go dark, GAL and then if you're up to it, re-connect with W. In your case, I would stick with the GAL and not have as much contact with the W as possible. Live your life first then see if the W wants to be a part of it.

I think that stuck has a point. I believe that if you push too hard on your W she may run the other way. You said that when you do bring up R she may feel pressured and want immediate D. Like he said...live your life and see what the W wants to do.

Looks like you have options. I wish you the best in sorting out what you want to do. Have a great day! One thing on my mind that I didn't mention and recall from your earlier posts - prayer.

Thanks for the input...I do think I'm at the point were the not pursuing part of DBing probably needs to take a backseat. If pursuing doesn't work and it pushes her faster I really haven't lost anything but a little bit of time.

I hope you are one of the success stories on here! We need a few more of those.

So what is your plan now???

No idea

...That's my goal between today and tomorrow is come up with a plan...

Well, we will be your biggest cheerleaders here with our pom-poms!!

Now you are making sense! We are right behind you to support and cheer! Hoping for the best! Let us know what you need.

Thanks for your post - I wish so much that your sitch would turn out the same.

Couldn't sleep so I wanted to share some thoughts with you too.

I was thinking about myself when I came to this site. I quickly adopted the going dark thing. It was hard because H and I work at the same place. I would see him everyday. Be polite, listen, and that was it. He would call, I would do the same but never engaged in convo or shared my info. After a time I began to wonder how we were supposed to figure out how to work things out if we weren't talking or spending time together.

So I would test the waters, and retreat. Over again and again. Mostly because when I would engage with him, the strategies used made some difference, but ultimately I would feel hurt that things remained mostly the same. It was the same off and on for awhile. Dark, engaging, dark, engaging, no progress. I felt in limbo land and didn't like it.

All the time, I kept wondering how this was helping or not. At one point I finally reached the conclusion that it was either A)going to work or B) not work. So I took one more try, and you know the rest so far. I realized as others do here, withdrawal and giving space helps us to a point, and then we are supposed to move forward. Many get stuck in limbo and R suffer and die for lack of movement forward.

I think most don't realize that while we are disengaged or detached, we are to work on ourselves and learn how to do things differently so we can have a different R - hopefully one that works for both. It is real work and real change. Limbo land by itself accomplishes nothing except to tell the other we just don't care or don't know what to do so we will do nothing.

So, go to it. Engage with your W, start your engine and move forward in a positive direction. We are here to support you.

So my first attempt at doing something different, not so successful. Was telling her about a movie I watched (Gran Torino, awesome movie)just telling how good it was and thought she would like it. She said she's been thinking about renting it but wasn't sure it was for her. Told her you need to and when you do I'd like to watch it again so invite me over...No reaction kids were talking in the background...Later in convo I say remember to invite me if you watch said movie...Well if I do it would be this weekend...Me, oh and I have the kids...In other words NO to watching movie together...Strike 1.

Well..maybe she meant to bring the kids over to watch it?

Give it a few more trys.

Quote:

Well..maybe she meant to bring the kids over to watch it?

No that wasn't it. I would rather she just so no or I don't think it's a good idea whatever not just avoid it. So next time I'm going to confront her a little and ask her if its no or because of the kids or whatever. Force her to give me a straight answer.

Are you sure about your interpretation? I guess so because you said so. Sorry if it is a no. Better to know now.

I just thought that you may have caught her off guard. Then, my first reaction to any plans for a weekend is to consider first who's weekend it is... then I figure things out? Still getting used to not having to do that...kids are mostly on their own schedule. exh and H both interpreted my reaction as a problem - it wasn't, I just needed to orient myself. Didn't mean anything. But you know your W.

So tonight...went out with a friend after work w calls about 8:30 and leaves a mesage...I just wanted to know your plan for tomorrow are you packing the kids and I thought you were coming over to see how to set up the the tent...

My s has cubscout camp this week and tomorrow is the overnight and me s and d. are going to camp. Yesterday my a said I should come over and set up the tent just so I knew how to do it...I said fine just call me and let me know if it's a good night. She never called and didn't say anything when I talked to her last night...

When I call her back tonight I could tell she wasn't happy. I tell her I'll come early and pack the kids no big deal. She says she already packed their stuff for camping ok twenty minutes ago you left a message wanting me to pack them I thought. Big pause in conv I ask anything else she says no, where are you, driving home...anything else she says no I say ok I'll talk to you later she says bye and hangs up...didn't wait for me to say bye, she never does that.

I call back because you have the choice of usingthe scout tents or bringing your own and s hadn't said what he wanted...so I ask which we weredoing she said the scout tents...wth thenwhy leave amessage about me not coming over to see how to set up new tent...I then ask why she hung up on me she said she didn't she said I said I'll talk to you later and thought that was my bye...every night I say I'll talkto you late then bye, every night...

Now during the whole conv I was happy good mood so I wasn't upset at all...I did ask her if she was mad at me she said no she's just tired...tired is code for somethings wrong I just don't want to tell you...

What did I do wrong?

It isn't you from what you said. She's bothered -don't know what about. could be any number of things. She's organized, she feels everything is on her... you weren't there when you were supposed to be there... all her stuff, irrational stuff, unresolved stuff with herself and you.

You didn't do anything wrong. She wants to blame you for the work that she has to do now, but can't. She wants to know who you're with and where you are because she's curious and maybe a little jealous.

Alot of times our WASs think they know what they want. Then when we give it to them in terms of space or time apart, etc. they still get angry with us because they thought they would automatically be happy.

When my W and I separated, she would be nasty and angry at me all the time in the short times that we were together. Then I finally got sick of hearing it and I told her to stop blaming me for her own unhappiness. That she wanted to leave and she did, so why was she still so mad?

It's like all our WASs get hit with the Crazy Stick.

That's it totally she's told me she hates that she has to do everything by herself...I've thought but never said that's your choice...

I feel like I should say sorry for not coming over to help...It's like she wants my help but won't ask and many times if I offer she says no. My boss says I shouldn't always ask just help but then I'd think I was invading her space.

I would say to go over and help ONLY when you feel the time is right.

With her being mad just because you didn't go over, even though it's her choice, is her decision. When I took a stand against my W, I felt great! I got my power back and made her face a few truths about herself. Sometimes I feel we have to do that not to get them more mad at us, but for them to stop the blame game.

I think if they keep repeating all the stuff their telling themselves about how terrible the LBS is, they end up believing it.

You can only validate so much. You just have to do it in a non-confrontational, matter-of-fact way.

Thanks stuck iknow I did nothing wrong. I won't be an a$$ but she shouldn't expect things from me if she's not at least willing to ask.

Last I looked you were not a mind reader! My guess is she is a bit put off that you were not jumping all over a time to be with her and was out and she didn't know where or with who. So what..ruffle her feathers a bit. In reality...if you two do go through with the divorce I hope you will not be at her every whim then. This kind of stuff may give her some insight on what life may be like.

Quote:

if you two do go through with the divorce I hope you will not be at her every whim then.

That won't happen.

I for some reason that I'm not yet sure why just sent her an email saying I hope your day is going well, and that I'm really looking forward to camping tonight with k's on the hottest day of the year and a high chance of severe thunderstorms

...First time I've done that just a little 180. Quick edit, not really a 180 but the first time I've just sent her something asking about her in as long as I can remember.

Have a good weekend and camp trip. Maybe spending time with your kids will give you more focus. Hang in there.

Hope you are having fun sleeping under the stars..

Happy Father's Day!

Have a wonderful Father's Day!

Thanks for the dads day good wishes...had a great weekend with the kids then talked with the a this morning...I'll post more later after I've had time to think about but I'm done with her...I just need to think about the things she said so I can fine a fair depiction of what happened.

Forget fair... we are here for you... say whatever, we will read and respond or not depending on what you need. Sounds bad. Not a good day for that.

((((VD))))

We are here for you.

So had a great weekend with the k's didn't get to camp Friday night due to some really bad lightning...Anyway fast forward to Sunday.

W calls in the morning to figure out the plan was for the day, we were going to out to dinner last night. I tell her I'm going to take the k's to the pool and she's welcome to come along...Well this is where it hits the fan...She starts off saying she has a lot to do and is tired...blah blah blah...Then starts going off on how she hates having to do everything by herself and basically how everything is my fault...Let her go on for about five minutes then stop her...Say I've decided dinner doesn't sound like a good idea. She says I'll be fine...I say nope not a good idea I'm not going.

About fifteen minutes later she leaves me a message on how I should go because the k's are really looking forward to it and will be hurt if I don't...so she's trying to guilt me, not a good idea. My guess is the k's knew nothing about the dinner and if they did they didn't say a word to me...So I call her back and tell her no once again, she said she's tired and has a lot to do that's not going to make for a fun dinner.

So k's and I go to the pool hang out have fun...Take them home to drop them off...W asks again about dinner, I say no AGAIN...She says well I took a nap and feel much better...

I guess she doesn't get the fact that I'm not going to be blamed for her not getting over herself.

Then the k's call last night to wish me a happy fathers day again...I know she put them up to it but she said they asked...She gets on the phone I ask her if there's anything she needs to tell me because if not I need to go, I'm watching the race...She sounds disappointed but says no so I say bye...

I'm done just chit chating with her...I realized also this weekend that pretty much anything that has to do with the kids she runs by her family first...For example my D wants to do cheerleading this fall instead of soccer, W asks what I think...Tell her if that's what she wants to do why not let her, she says yeah my mom said the same thing...

Sounds like a decent FD with your kids and that is the main thing. You spending time with your kids!

The WS behavior is all over the boards. Who the heck knows what was going through her mind. Maybe she knows the D is progressing and being a 'family' is too tough on her mind. Maybe she was really tired?

I guess just keep on being you like you said before. Be the good dad to your kids and the rest is going to work out whatever way it will.

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Maybe she knows the D is progressing and being a 'family' is too tough on her mind.

That's the thing, it's not, she's not done anything more...The being a family thing for dinner was her idea not mine, and she's the one that kept trying to get me to change my mind about going. I'm not sure I really wanted to go in the first place because I'm not sure how much we should do together and confuse the kids...I'm sure she was tired but that's no excuse to, for no reason, start blaming me for everything bad in her life.

Didn't you get the memo? Its classic WS behavior to blame you for their every bad day or event?

LOL..I know yesterday I just wasn't up for it...

One big question...I had to drop some stuff off today that the kids forgot when they were here...my s asks me if I can stay I have to say no but why he and my d ask why is where I get stuck...I don't want them to think I don't want to see them or spend time with them but I also don't want to say mom doesn't want me too...I just feel like I'm always coming off as the bad guy and w doesn't have to take any responsibility for me not being able to stay.

V,
I think you are really reacting to her stuff. I guess these are the issues that need to be addressed between you.

About the awkward moments, can you say," I am not sure if it is a good idea" - then they can ask her if it is ok to ask you to stay.
Kids are not dumb and they know that neither of you wants to be the bad guy and it sounds like they don't want to judge.

You could be the better one and ask your W about these situations and her input. Me, with my exh, I recognized that the kids felt awkward at times and jumped in to make things ok when possible - but then I made all the decisions in my previous M and had to be the mature one.

You have to KNOW that you are not the bad guy! Your M is the issue and it affects the family, but it takes two and you know this so stop taking all the blame.

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W calls in the morning to figure out the plan was for the day, we were going to out to dinner last night. I tell her I'm going to take the k's to the pool and she's welcome to come along...Well this is where it hits the fan...She starts off saying she has a lot to do and is tired...blah blah blah...Then starts going off on how she hates having to do everything by herself and basically how everything is my fault...Let her go on for about five minutes then stop her...Say I've decided dinner doesn't sound like a good idea. She says I'll be fine...I say nope not a good idea I'm not going.

You let her get her way with bad behavior. Just say, "I understand you are tired and it's OK. And dear W you don't have to do everything and everything is not my fault. If you start down this path again I will stop you everytime. If you have something specific you want to talk about I am all for it."

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About fifteen minutes later she leaves me a message on how I should go because the k's are really looking forward to it and will be hurt if I don't...so she's trying to guilt me, not a good idea. My guess is the k's knew nothing about the dinner and if they did they didn't say a word to me...So I call her back and tell her no once again, she said she's tired and has a lot to do that's not going to make for a fun dinner.

The stuff in bold is mind reading on your part. You have know idea what your W or kids are thinking, if you want to know just ask. That's your responsibility.

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I guess she doesn't get the fact that I'm not going to be blamed for her not getting over herself.

She invited you again and said she took a nap which was the reason she said she wasnt up to it. Yeah you showed her and the kids who's boss. So how did you spend your Fathers Day dinner? You are acting passive-aggressive, not healthy for you VD. This is work for you to do. (I already got the T-shirt)

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Then the k's call last night to wish me a happy fathers day again...I know she put them up to it but she said they asked...

Mind reading. Then you discount what your W said. What could she do for you that would be OK?

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For example my D wants to do cheerleading this fall instead of soccer, W asks what I think...Tell her if that's what she wants to do why not let her, she says yeah my mom said the same thing...

Yeah I bet her Dad put your MIL up to it.

You are talking, thinking and feeling for other people. You are having conversations in your head. Stop the loop.

V,

Coach has some points to look at. Might help.

Thanks for the input Coach I really do appreciate it. Before reading your post I tried that whole communication thing, didn't go very well at all...I tried to talk with her about the whole kids asking me stay ect and she basically told me it was my responsibility to figure out...bad part is it turned into an hour long talk/fight about the D...Sure I could have ended it and maybe should have but I didn't. Bottom line I'm ready to get the D over with, she hasn't done a thing, said she hasn't had time to work on anything and blamed me for not helping. Told me she may just wait and not do anything and we can just go to court...

After thing long and hard about it last night I'm going to do what I can to get this D done as soon as possible. In doing that I call her this morning asking her for some financial info, I'm being as nice as nice could be...She starts yelling at me about why I would need this or that...I reply you said you wanted my help and I'm trying to give it I need just need some info on where to start...She starts more yelling and I just say I see your angry I'm going to go, she says I'm not done and to that I reply, I am bye, and hang up...

Bottom line after two years of S I'm ready for this M to be over so I can move on...

Sounds like you are getting to the restless point. Either do something or move on. You have been at this a long time. It goes back to give yourself a date and see how things are then. It may be tomorrow, may be in 6 months. How long do you want to go on like this? Sounds like your W can go on this way for a long time.
In your conversations I don't hear anything from her regarding the M. She isn't hinting at what she would want, it sounds more like she is finding ways to be friendly and have a working relationship for your kids. Just my opinion though.

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In your conversations I don't hear anything from her regarding the M. She isn't hinting at what she would want, it sounds more like she is finding ways to be friendly and have a working relationship for your kids.

You are spot on she has no desire to be M but isn't pushing the D...We/I will be friendly because of the kids but that will be all for at least a little while.

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Sounds like you are getting to the restless point. Either do something or move on.

I am beyond restless I will do whatever I can to move the process forward as fast as possible, there is no point in dragging it out for the next five months. I'm not hurt or angry or pi$$ed off, I'm just relieved.

Limbo sucks. Its nice to have a direction. You have every right to move on with your life. If W changes her tune in the next few months or even after D is final then you can revisit if YOU want. She can't say you didn't try.

So what is your plan?

First i need to get financial info from her and talk to a L...If she won't give me any info I go to the L anyway and figure it out with her/him.

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If W changes her tune in the next few months or even after D is final then you can revisit if YOU want.

I'd be totally up for that right now but who knows what the future holds...I would be more than willing to stay in limbo if she gave any indication that she thought there was even a small chance but she says there is none, so time for both of us to move on.

sounds like W wants both the keep the M and have it her way.

you sound ready to take the next step, just a warning... during my first D, exh kept asking me what we were doing everytime we went to the L. I always said we could talk after. Never talked after... always wondered what would have happened if we did... I decided that if he didn't want the D, then we wouldn't. Be certain how you proceed. If it is what you want... so be it. If you are doing this to push her buttons... then think about it.

Either way, it is a tough course. Be careful, take care of yourself and be kind. Don't forget you are a good man and a good F. Hard qualities to find. You have been very helpful to me and I will be there for you.

Thanks kassie...it's not what I want but I have no choice so i've accepted it. If she came to me tomorrow and said anything that made me think she had doubts I'd be open to her. I would never take this stance to push her buttons or as some sort of a test. I want my M but I think it's time to move on. I'll always love and respect her but like I said I think it's time.

Like I said, the D is for your sanity. It can always be changed later if needed.

Sent an email to W this morning asking to meet next week to discuss the D...Thought it would be a good time since the kids will be with in laws. Haven't heard back yet but no big surprise she doesn't check her mail that often. This will be the first time we've sat down in person to discuss D every other time it's been impromptu over the phone and turns into a big fight.

I hate doing this but it feels like I FINALLY have some control I'm not just sitting around waiting and wondering what's going to happen...

I did catch myself thinking,a little maybe this will turn her around, make her think a little harder, with me wanting to initiate the talk and moving forward...

Good for you feel more in control.

I didn't like insisting on a S, but once done, I did feel much better to have some control over the sitch. Being in control of what I could, allowed me to make better decisions for myself. It was such a relief.

Keep us informed.

Weird still no response to the email about meeting next week...I know she read it (I do read receipt on all my email) so I don't know if I should say anything. I guess waiting is the best action...

No, don't say anything yet. Give it a few days at least then ask in person.

Why do you think that is, that she hasn't responded yet?

Oops! It's thursday night, don't ask tonight!

LOL kassie I totally forgot it being Thursday.

Without trying to mind read I think she is surprised I'm taking back some control...I could be wrong, it happened once before.

BTW I lost my post to you, server went down at work but I will redo it.

Lost that last post to you,

I thought it was interesting that when you were not aware of the day, nothing bad happened, amazing?!

I look forward to what you say.

V -

Checking in, how are you?

Looooooong weekend...But very very fun. My friends wouldn't let me be alone all weekend I'm not depressed or anything but they thought I should be out. Friday night after work went to this country bar, stayed way too long, 2:30am, I too old for that

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Saturday some of my consultants had a cookout, they rent a house on a big lake here and have boats and jet skis, was out there all day and most of the night, tons of people there.

I had to leave a message for W, on Saturday, that I didn't have her parents number so I could call the kids. She was with them but her cell doesn't get good reception up there sometimes so I left it on her home phone. She called Sunday while I was playing golf to give me the number and she just sounded so down.

Few hours later I texted her thanks for the number, not five minutes later she called. She just wanted to say hi, ect...Then she says "I guess we should talk on this week, I don't want to do this(could barely here this) , but I guess we have too". I say ok. She then says well I guess I'll let you go, she sounds so "down" or "defeated"...I say ok...Her what are you doing...Just some reports for work but mostly watching TV, I'm a little tired...Why?...Told her everything I did this weekend, she sounded even more down...Sort of made me feel bad I don't want to hurt her...

So I guess tomorrow night we are going to talk...yippee

Kassie I still owe you that post, I will do it promise...

Glad you got out and had a fun weekend. Really glad your W saw that too!

Just keep on GALing. She is going to do what she will do regardless. No need to feel bad, not like you did anything horrible. You had fun. Nothing to feel bad about!

This was probably one of the most fun weekends I've had for a long time...But I'm too old to do it again, I'm dragging today...:)

As for the W I feel bad but I keep telling myself I did everything I could and if she feels like she can't try, that's on her. That's the most frustrating part in all of this that she never really tried, as in doing the things our MC's told us we needed to do.

Originally Posted By: volleydog

This was probably one of the most fun weekends I've had for a long time...But I'm too old to do it again, I'm dragging today...:)

a) Good for you, b) C'mon! Man up!

Originally Posted By: volleydog

That's the most frustrating part in all of this that she never really tried, as in doing the things our MC's told us we needed to do.

Yep, yep, yep. That's my sitch. Sometimes feel like she gave me a wake-up call and when I responded, she said "Too late".
No trying on my wife's part.

Hey...I would love to have a weekend like that and I am older than you!

This may be a good dose of reality for your wife. If you D, you certainly will not be sitting around.

Good to hear you having fun! Very much needed right now - it gives one a better perspective on life and other important and not so important things. Sounds like it did some magic... you didn't take responsibility for her choices.

So about one hour till me and W sit down and try and divide up almost 20 years together...I'm not nervous but not sure I want to do it anymore, but I'm pretty sure it's the right thing. Funny thing is I know it will go well when we're together working on things we always made a good team, we just haven't done that in almost two years.

(((VD)))

Hang in there. Do your best. We will be thinking of you.

((( V)))

Checking in and hoping things go as needed and you are both ok.

Hoping for the best.Thinking of you.

Well it went pretty much how I expected...we went out to dinner it was fun but neither of us ate much. Went back to her place agreed on everything as far as the kids and everything nonfinancial. Got to the money and things got tense she makes much much more than me mostly because I moved around for her for her career...she started blaming me and I put an end to it and said it's time for me to go if that's where she's going to go...we decided to go to our L figure out what's fair fr the pov of the other spouse.

After thinking about our talk last night it's just so f'in frustrating...I think we are going to have one of the nicest D/post D in history. I'm not saying that's a bad thing...

The bad part is there doesn't have to be a D to begin with...In her own words..."I don't WANT a D but I don't see any other option"...WTH the other option work on the M..."I think that would be too hard"...With the way we get along I KNOW it would work...I know or am about 95% certain if I moved back in within a month she would forget about the D...How do I know this SHE SAID IT...

Why won't this woman even consider working on the M? I don't get it...

Ok, I am going to play devil's advocate. May be really off base, but its what I see.

Your W saying she doesn't want this D, but still is moving forward with it is sort of a cushion. Its much easier to say that than to say "I want a D". It makes her feel less guilty. If she truly was wavering and not wanting a D, she would be doing something about it.

People have come back to healthy M's with way more baggage than yours. There was no infidelity, secrets, or abuse.

Sorry but wanted you to see a different perspective.

No worries SO2...I do want that different perspective...

I believe she "wants" it, it's the can't see any other way part...Not willing to try is what I don't get. It's not like she wants to date, told me this last night...I started the topic but she agreed it sux to try and start dating after almost 20 years together...We both know we will but aren't really looking forward to it.

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People have come back to healthy M's with way more baggage than yours. There was no infidelity, secrets, or abuse.

I know that's what is so hard to figure out. Last night she said something like she's had to do everything by herself the last two years and she resents me for that...Told her that was her choice (nicely).

I've accepted the fact we are going to D, no doubt in my mind, I just don't understand it...That's what makes it hard.

V, your W has some big anger issues.Would she consider IC before making things more difficult?

Originally Posted By: kassie

V, your W has some big anger issues.Would she consider IC before making things more difficult?

No...She did that for about a year and stopped...Her reasoning being C's become C's because they have serious issues of their own...She won't consider C of any kind anymore.

Boy, she really does not want to look at herself which is why she won't work on the M - she really blames you and think the only problem in the M is your stuff.

I know I am only hearing your side, but what I read sounds much like I was and I was an angry person who felt everyone in my life left me to be responsible one. I resented that role and yet I kept taking whatever responsibility I could instead of walking away from the stuff that wasn't mine.

Knowing her as you do, is there anyway to reach her, so that she can see and hear herself?

And BTW, let her know that therapists often are people who went through horrible situations and recovered successfully only to want to pass it on to others. If she doesn't like one, she should try another = perhaps a MC with a family systems background. It can help to understand the roles we learn in our family early in life and how we continue them into adult R.

I hear the same thing Kass. Its all VD's fault and she has no work to do. I still don't get her reasons. There is something underlying there and she just may be sugar coating it to avoid conflict and relieve her guilt.

My guess on avoiding counseling is the counselor may point out her issues, her lack of trying, or she may have to fess up that she doesn't want to try. If she wants out she won't want to go to MC.

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she may have to fess up that she doesn't want to try.

She doesn't she told me this...She says it would be to hard and bring up all the old hurt, that's her reasoning. She said we tried with two different MC's and it didn't help, except I point out to her we didn't do the work the MC's told us to do...

My exh used to say "there is too much water under the bridge for us to try". I say thats horse pucky! If you want your M bad enough, nothing is too much. Sorry, just seems like a cop out.

I agree, it's not only a cop-out it's selfish...

Originally Posted By: volleydog

I agree, it's not only a cop-out it's selfish...

Im sorry. I hate being such a downer...sadly I have been at this so long I think I have heard every excuse in the book.

I agree, I doubt you put your wife through in 20 years what my H put me through in three. My friends don't agree with me giving him a chance, only my kids support it b/c they think forgiveness is important when someone is trying. I am so grateful they are able to think this way.