So about 1 month ago my wife left the house. We had an argument over someone that she talks to all the time from work, she used to refer to him as her work husband. I was jealous that she was spending what seemed like more time talking to him then she was to me, even though I know that she never had or never would cheat on me. Well one thing led to another and she moved out and took our 3 year old son with her to stay at her mothers house. We went to a marriage counselor for 2 sessions(first 2 weeks after this happened) and I still continue to go without her. She has already said that she wants to get file for a D. I know that I'm not perfect she says that in the 13 years that we have known each other (married 7 years) she has never been happy. I see know that looking back there were times when i was less then perfect being cruel and putting her down for no reason. We have both been going to a psychiatrist for about 2 years now, me for depression, and her for coping with me and anxiety, she did move out of the house at that point so that I would see that there was something wrong with me(I refused to believe it when she told me). Its now come to the point where she will barely talk to me, gets mad if i try and do something nice for her. I don't want to lose everything that we have together, both of us have good jobs, a great home, and most of all the family.
The few conversations that we do have now, I get mixed singles from her on what she wants and its really confusing me. One day she will say something that seems she wants things to work out and then later it will be completely opposite.
For example after an argument between us that we had about 2 weeks ago now, over which began because i asked her what she wanted for us. Well looking back now that was a mistake, not only could i not get an answer from her but the argument was a screaming match. I wish i had never asked. By the end of the argument about 5 mins, she had said that she just wanted out. I left the place where this happened (my parents house). The next day, I made the mistake of going out and buying a replacement TV, what a dumb way of coping, well only to my surprise the W found out. She was so angry about it, the comment that she made to me was "Well that just goes to show how much that everything means to you." I simply replied "what does that mean? you said yesterday that we are through." The answer that i then got back is "well you never know." Talk about getting false hope. Since then I have offered to move out of the house for our son to be at the home with her, she refused, I have sent her messages in the morning to have a good day. Only for her to tell me last night to stop and not make this any harder then it is.
I have read through the entire book since all of this happened, and I must say I have learned a lot, part of me wishes i had read it years ago. I'm at a point now that I don't know if there is anything or anyway that this marriage can be saved.
The W stopped by last night to pick up our son after work. She saw the DR book on the counter and picked it up and read the covers. Next thing i knew was she says to me do you think this will actually work? I simply answered her that anything is possible. The next thing she said to me by complete surprise and i didn't know what to say. She asked me if she could take the book with her to read it.
Being caught off guard i told her she could if she would like to, however she left or forgot it on the counter. Would it be a good idea for her to read it also, or should i just concentrate on following the steps in the book on my own?
I think it would be a great idea for her to read it. I honestly think everyone should get Divorce Remedy for a wedding gift. You learn so much from it. It can teach you what to do BEFORE you ever need it. I think it would save more marriages if people knew how to handle things in advance.
Don't force it on her, just next time you see her ask if she still wants to read the book.
Greg,
I would NOT recommend letting her read it. Why would you want the opponent to read YOUR playbook?
This message board should be a safe haven for you to come to vent, get support, ideas, and bounce things off of others here. While I have seen some success ONCE YOU GET TO THE RECONCILIATION (or "Piecing") STAGE, from having both spouses active here on the forum, I don't think you're at that stage yet, are you?
Puppy
If she is interested in working on the marriage I don't see anything wrong with her reading the book. It may teach her how to cope with things also.
If my stbx would have read it I would have gladly loaned it to him.
He can still get support from here. He doesn't have to tell her about him posting here.
Reading the book and invading his space here are 2 different things.
Hi T2SP,
The book will inevitably lead her to the message board.
And you can't "teach" someone who is wayward.
I'm also not seeing anything in her actions that indicates that she's at all ready to start "working on the marriage."
Just my opinion; I guess we'll have to disagree.
Puppy
No, we don't have to disagree. You know more about the situation than I do. I'm sorry. I overstepped here. I was not thinking clearly.
I do still believe all married couples should read the book.
I do too. I want wayward men and women to read "NOT Just Friends," too, and "His Needs, Her Needs" and "The Five Love Languages," and "Sex-Starved Marriage" and "After the Affair" and so many others. All I'm saying is that they have to be READY to receive it; they have to be in the reconciliation phase.
If they're not, you really can't reach them, and therefore I don't think it's worth the risk of losing your ability to continue to anonymously use this valuable resource (the message board) as a support.
Peace,
Puppy
Hi T2SP,
The book will inevitably lead her to the message board.
And you can't "teach" someone who is wayward.
I'm also not seeing anything in her actions that indicates that she's at all ready to start "working on the marriage."
Just my opinion; I guess we'll have to disagree.
Puppy
Hi Puppy and Thank you everyone for your advice. You are correct to say that there are no indicators of her being ready or even willing to work on our marriage. There really isn't any communication between us at this point except when one or the other of us is picking up\dropping off child. On the rare occasion when we do talk on phone or in person, its more of mixed sayings on her side. She can say one thing one breathe about working through everything, and in the next she starts talking about the D word. This is most of the reason why i wasn't sure if it was a good idea for her to read the "playbook".
For now what i am going to do is keep it somewhere that even if she comes by she will not see it.
Last weekend our son spent the weekend with me. On sunday morning she called to see if everything was alright and it was, she sounded upbeat and happy. I later called her to see what time she wanted to to drop him back off with her, and she said keep him for a while, OK no problem. I sensed something different in her voice so I asked the W what was the matter. The only answer that I got from her is that she had been crying. She wouldn't tell me why or discuss it with me so I just said, ok call me when you want me to bring him to you.
Then last Thursday the W and i actually spent about 30 mins on the phone together - the most he have spoken since seperating. Everything seemed to be good conversation between us talking about work and what each other has been doing. Then on Thursday when she contacted me to pick up our son it was right back to the the same cold actions. Friday I ignored her and on Saturday she called me about 10am and i could hear our son crying in the background. I asked her if everything was OK and all i would get from her was that he wanted to see me - do I want her to drop him off(in a nasty tone). Of course I said yes - well she dropped him off, got in the car and left.
This is just so hard going from one being one emotion and then the something else the next day. I'm not sure if she is like that because she is still thinking everything over or what is going on. The one thing that I did notice is that she has taking off her rings and she said that when she does that it is over for good. Right now all I have been doing is concentrating on my own issues(counseling, reading books, etc..) and giving her space to think. I'm not sure if there is anything else that I might be able to do to save this marriage.
I'm going to have to side with Puppy on this one. Sorry T2, but you really don't want to forewarn or forearm your spouse when you are in the midst of fighting for your marriage. Even though the tactics of GAL and acting "as if" are for our benefit, if the wayward spouse were clued in to what the gameplan was, they could frustrate the entire effort.
I also disagree that they are books that you would want to make generally available to married couples. Most of the activities, if viewed from within the confines of a loving marriage might appear to be incredibly selfish. The concept of GAL and focusing on ourselves and the kids is also self-centered. I think if more loving couples practiced what DB and DR advocates, there would be more problems in marriages, not less.
There are far better books on what married couples can do to increase intimacy, sharing, and bonding. Go to any bookstore and there are rows upon rows of books to help strengthen marriages.
DB and DR are strong medicine for when everything is going into the toilet. In those situations where the marriage is breaking down, you need something strong and unconventional to cope.
If you will pardon a weak analogy: DB and DR are akin to a strong antibiotic ointment. You can put it on whenever you feel like it, but it doesn't really provide much benefit. In fact, using it before you need it might make your situation worse (AB resistant bugs). Once you are injured, however, it is a salve that promotes healing by preventing infection.
Yeah, it's a thin analogy, but i think you get the point.
Greg:
You are on the roller-coaster, and it isn't as fun as when you were a kid, let me tell you. Your Ws moods are going to swing from high to low, and she is going to try and take you right along with it. Detachment is key to avoid needing dramamine. Detach from her and work on yourself.
ppenton re-posted a great laundry list of things to do/not do as you navigate this. Here's a linky to his list.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1743120&page=1#Post1743204Hang in there and keep posting here for support, advice, and a friendly shoulder to cry on. You will also benefit from skimming aorund and reading some other folks' sitches. You will find that lots of folks are in similar places and they have charted out the reefs and shallows: learn by proxy!
Greg:
You are on the roller-coaster, and it isn't as fun as when you were a kid, let me tell you. Your Ws moods are going to swing from high to low, and she is going to try and take you right along with it. Detachment is key to avoid needing dramamine. Detach from her and work on yourself.
ppenton re-posted a great laundry list of things to do/not do as you navigate this. Here's a linky to his list.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1743120&page=1#Post1743204Hang in there and keep posting here for support, advice, and a friendly shoulder to cry on. You will also benefit from skimming aorund and reading some other folks' sitches. You will find that lots of folks are in similar places and they have charted out the reefs and shallows: learn by proxy!
Thanks for the link - I printed them out and have them hanging on the fridge now as a daily reminder.
This afternoon the W and I are supposed to go to an appointment together(psychologist - appointment that was made from when she first moved out - we have been going to him for a couple of years) I'm not even sure that she will show up there today. Here's my dilemma now, first I am nervous about going and seeing her, second, I was wondering if I should appoligize for the way that I treated and acted towards her when/if I see her since our split up is based solely upon my actions. I didn't argue fairly with her and did call her names, as bad as it is, I never realized the damage that I was doing to both her and our relationship. Between the reading and counseling that I have been going to, I understand now more of why I did this and now am working on making changes so I do not do this again(in any relationship). I'm just not sure if i should apologize to her now, or wait longer, I realize that even if i do she may not accept the apology because of the hurt that I have caused her.
Thank you to everyone so far for your help and support.
Well she showed up for the appointment and just about walked out the door when she saw me sitting in the waiting room. I managed to stop her from leaving so that she would be able to see the doctor, but the only way that I was able to do that was by speaking with the receptionist and having us go in separate. In the meanwhile I waited outside in my car until the receptionist waved me in. In the brief discussion that i managed to have with my W to convince her to stay, what I got is what are you doing here? I tried to explain to her that we need to talk, that we do have a son together(now the 5th day of not seeing or speaking to him), and i would like to be able to see him. Her answer to me was the only place we will be doing any talking is in a lawyers office(completely ignoring my question). It was left at that as she walked away saying that I don't respect her boundaries. OK point taking you need your space - and i violated it - never mind that the appointment was made while we were still on speaking terms - i should have known better and changed the appointment for myself rather then assuming we would still go together.
I did eventually get into see the doctor, and spoke for quite a while, now I know its not his place to say anything, but in his opinion he does not feel that she wants a divorce, that she will probably give me one more chance, after some time and after she and he both see change in me. He does have a pro-marriage position, so for now its back to working on myself and hoping/praying that the W sees the changes, and knows that I am committed to make the marriage work, although no matter what I want to be a better person for myself and my son.
So the Wife called me a little while ago at work - I have not tried to contact her in anyway since the meeting yesterday. So glad my work phone has caller ID - I did answer it. She said HI, I simply asked whats up? something wrong? and the W replied no, i just wanted to see how you were doing and make sure everything is ok. I answered her that I'm fine and everything else is ok and simply asked how she was doing and if there was anything else that she wanted. She said no thats it she just wanted to see how i was doing and with that i ended the conversation having to go back to work.
So I have been pretty much ignoring the wife(no contact of any means initiated by me for the past few days), yesterday she calls me to say that her lawyer from an old lawsuit called her, and she just wanted to talk with me about it. Ok, no big deal for me I'll just listen to what she wants to say and let her vent about it.
So I saw the W today. Not by my choice. Had to do some work on a computer at her job for the owner of the company. After I was done she came back to the house to get some things. All the time I was great, nice, even had a smile on my face. Until she tells me that I will be getting served on the 17th, and will have to appear in family court 2 weeks later, she is seeking full custody. The W said she just didn't want it to be a blindside when I get served (how thoughtful of her). Well that was the end of me having a good day. No matter how hard I tried i couldn't keep the tears in while she was still here. Not sure what is going to happen now, or where this is going to end up, if there is any chance at saving the marriage at this point, seems like she set her mind and is very reluctant to change it.
God bless you. Where there is great love, miracles can still happen. It ain't over until the judge pounds his gavel. Even then, I believe it's still possible to get back together. Pray, continue to work on yourself to be the best man you can be. I'm sorry for your disappointment and your pain. Stay here on this board...lots of smart and experienced people here.
Thanks Antlers. Its been a few days since I've been here. Thought I would update you guys. The W and I are still seperated, and I've been trying my hardest to follow the "Last Resort Technique", trying to GAL and just "work on my own issues and flaws", have even been doing a good job of losing weight. It seems now that I am not trying to pursue or contact her, that my phones ring more and more with her trying to reach me, even for the littlest things.
Here's a funny story, 2 days ago I decided to go for a bicycle ride (something I haven't done in a long time), I went for a ride to the beach (about 10 miles round trip). As I got to the parking lot, I felt my cell ring, looked and it was the W. She asked what I was up to, told her i was at the beach, she responded oh and with who? I explained to her no one that I went for a bike ride to get some exercise and asked if I could call her back later that I can;t talk right now. End of that conversation. So about 20-30 mins later as I went over the bridge at the beach to start my ride home, i hear a car horn, look back and its the W. She pulled over, and said that our son wanted to see my riding the bike, now I didn't tell a 3 year old that I was riding my bike, so was it just an excuse to check up on me and see what I'm doing. The W and I talked for a few minutes and then I wanted to get on my way before it got dark.
Now here's the really funny part of the story - not even half a mile down the road my tire goes flat instantly. Glad I had the cell with me. Called the W asked her if she could pick me up and give me a lift home if it was a problem, I could easily get someone else. She agreed. She turned around and picked me up, on the way home she mentioned she made stuffed peppers (hers are always delicious) the night before for that day and asked if she wanted to stop at her moms and pick up a couple for me. SO I agreed. She gave me the peppers and brought me home. Later that night she called to see how I thought they were and tell me to have a goodnight. Of course, i though that the peppers were really good.
Considering that she is looking to take custody and stay separated, I can't figure out the reasoning behind her being so nice to me now, I wondering if she is just trying to butter me up or is just not sure what she wants - although from her attitude she seems like she has her mind made up. She even told our son that once you decide on something in your mind you have to stick to it.
Last Saturday night, my son stayed over the house(Sunday was his Bday), around midnight i received a few texts from the W.
Sorry about the bad spelling tried to keep them as original as possible
She wrote to be saying that we cant change the past! All we can do is make the future better. T is a happy innocent child. My goal is to keep it that way. u are a good father. If I didn't believe that he wouldn't b with u rite now. I know you would never hurt him. i knw u love him. i knw u love me. Pls just trust that this is the rite thing. I knw its hard but its true. Everything will be OK, may not feel that way now but it will eventually
Next message said
I'm not a cold hearted b&*^h. I know how much Ty means to u. I know how much he loves u. I would never take him away from u unless u hurt us...there's jst something there that's diff for a mother and her child. a bond...u may relate better one day bc ur males but i carried him for nine months. I felt him grow inside me..my world changed forever bc of him. As did urs. But it was not joe that made me different. it was T. Sure I may have turned to Joe to vent. And maybe that was wrong. But my ultimate decision to separate was for T. To give him a chance for a life wout fighting. u can change, I dnt dbt that. I jst cant forget and forgive completely. So i knw Id always be bitter and that wouldn't b healthy for any of us
And Her final message of the Night
Things are diff. and its guna take some time...but if we work together and think of Ty first there is no reason why we can't get past this and remain on good terms.
My only response to her was
I know that the past cant change and it would always be on ur mind maybe if u express that hurt, it will run a natural course of healing.
End of messages
Now a few days later, I did something that I used to do in the past when the W and I would argue and fight, It may even go back to when we were just dating. What I did was in the middle of the night, left a single rose on the windshield of her car.
She found it in the morning at 7am when she left for work and called me. The first thing she asked was what i was doing, and then she asked me if i put the flower on her car. While I hesitated to answer not knowing how she would react i said yes.
Her response to me was simply "Thank You. I've been waiting for you to do that." I asked what she meant by that and all she said is that I always used to leave her a flower and she was wondering when i was going to do it.
I explained to her that I was sorry if I upset or offended her and she said it didn't, we hung up the phone and have had little conversation since. The only things we have really spoken about is our son.
We have a court date for Monday for custody
Well the W stopped by today after taking our S to the dentist. Her reason for stopping by was that our S wanted to show me the two fillings that he got for his small cavities(my fault - i bribed him with lolly pops to help potty train him). She stayed for about an hour while our S played with the dog, and we just sat in the grass and watched like we used to do.
We spoke a little while she was here all she would really say is that I was lucky because I was going to get to keep the house - I reminded her that it was the house she made a home and renovated with all ideas of her own, and that everything there reminds me of her.
At the end of the visit she asked me if I would like to go out to dinner to talk. Not sure what she wants to talk about, but after thinking it over for a little while I called her and agreed, otherwise I would just be wondering. All I can think about right now is how nervous and scared that I am to actually go out with her. I'm excited because I get to see her and spend some time with her and scared not knowing what she is wanting to discuss.
My goodness, that rose thing just exemplifies how unpredictable all of this is. I thought for sure that was the wrong way to go...old behavior. And it seems to have yielded positive results.
My H invited me to breakfast a few weeks ago and I prepared myself for him to tell me he was filing papers. Nope, we just had breakfast and talked (not R related, at least not directly). So, be prepared for the worst and try to relax and just be yourself. Oh, and let us know what happens!!!
Ok so dinner was good. He talked not about R or D, just talked. She brought up the custody subject which was a court date today. I asked her what she wanted and she said it didn't matter what the judge said that she would never keep our S from me. Other then that overall it was just a good night out for the two of us, we were there for almost 3 hours longest we spent together in a long time.
Now on to court today. I think I may have made a big mistake, she was filing for full custody, and i did speak with a lawyer about it. i was told I have 2 options, I could go in front of the judge and say i want legal counsel or the lawyer could go with me to try and speak with W to reach an agreement. Under the lawyer recommendation she was there with me. The W did not look happy, and would not talk, she had no clue that I had a lawyer on retainer. I tried to talk with her and explain different options but she wouldn't listen. All she would say is that I made a big mistake. All I managed to get in was saying that I did it to protect myself, that I wasn't signing over full custody.
She said that I ruined everything, I asked her if there had been any tiny thoughts of R in her mind, and she siad if there were they are gone now. I simply walked away at that point fighting the tears. Now we have to go back on May 19th for custody.
I tried to talk to her breifly after leaving. All I could get is that the next time that she will talk to me will be in court, and that I will be served divorce papers before then.
So much for that little thought or R in her head, talk about screwing up majorly.
Well it seems like any progress that I had made towards saving the marriage is out the door. Two steps forward and ten steps back. She came to the house this afternoon to pic up some clothes - with a police escort to avoid any problems. The W won't even talk to me now, and won't even allow me to see our child. Hopefully that will change in a few days after she has some time to calm down. Its beginning to look like she is going to make this a bitter nasty fight.
Well it seems like any progress that I had made towards saving the marriage is out the door. Two steps forward and ten steps back. She came to the house this afternoon to pic up some clothes - with a police escort to avoid any problems. The W won't even talk to me now, and won't even allow me to see our child. Hopefully that will change in a few days after she has some time to calm down. Its beginning to look like she is going to make this a bitter nasty fight.
I am sure it was upsetting to have a police officer escort her but the main thing is there was no further conflict, she got her things, nobody got hurt and everybody was safe. While those positives might seem slim, they are positives. You avoided further conflict with her and seeing that she is already upset that is a good thing.
Your W didnt like it that you got an attny. Well, tough. You have every right to be protected and find out how to protect your children. A few days of space might help and if your W has an atty it would seem to me they would urge her to not start off swinging and see what sort of agreement can be reached before things get ugly.
When a WAS feels cornered the word divorce flies around. If she files then she files but dont feel bad about protecting yourself. Its necessary and your right as a citizen of this country. Honestly, at this point its probably best if you only see her in court! Anything else, right now, would spell disaster w/her being so angry.
Your W didnt like it that you got an attny. Well, tough. You have every right to be protected and find out how to protect your children. A few days of space might help and if your W has an atty it would seem to me they would urge her to not start off swinging and see what sort of agreement can be reached before things get ugly.
When a WAS feels cornered the word divorce flies around. If she files then she files but dont feel bad about protecting yourself. Its necessary and your right as a citizen of this country. Honestly, at this point its probably best if you only see her in court! Anything else, right now, would spell disaster w/her being so angry.
I think my W filed for full custody without even speaking to an attorney. I got one simply because when i got served i consulted with an atty, about the family court procedure. My W never did and from conversations that I had with her she was under the impression that the two of us would be able to sit down without lawyers in the judges office and set up custody and visitation. My atty informed me that it does not work like that way, that attys would be with you for that. Maybe I could have been more forth coming with her and not blindsided her with having an atty present, but i think if she knew I had one then she wouldn't say a word to me.
Thanks CityGirl, I am defiantly going to try not to have any communication with her, and maybe find another way to see our son, maybe a relative can get him for me. If she lets me, I have advised my atty about the situation, and it was last left off that I asked my W for her atty name, so that my atty could contact hers in regards to her keeping our son from me. No word back as of yet, which means my atty may be sending a registered letter very soon.
I think in situations like this its very important to let the attny handle certain things. Yes, your W might have had an idea of how things will go but it seems she never investigated it and now she is angry that it isnt happening as she assumed.
Once you are served, IMO anyway, you are under no obligation to tell your W you retained counsel. Once it is made known that you have, how you choose to handle things is up to you. Some couples can work together w/the attnys sort of in the background and some cant. But its best to have your own attny IMO.
Keep your attny in the loop and let them help you w/the legal side of things so you can stray strong on the emotional front. That is why you are paying an attny.
Once you are served, IMO anyway, you are under no obligation to tell your W you retained counsel. Once it is made known that you have, how you choose to handle things is up to you. Some couples can work together w/the attnys sort of in the background and some cant. But its best to have your own attny IMO.
Keep your attny in the loop and let them help you w/the legal side of things so you can stray strong on the emotional front. That is why you are paying an attny.
I guess right now the hardest thing is that we went out on a dinner date, and had a good time together, it almost seemed as if things were heading in the right direction, for a change(I was even contemplating calling the atty not to show for the first day, but was afraid that i would be emotionally weak, even with the atty there the tears were swelling in my eyes.)
Its amazing because not even a month before she left, we were actually trying to get pregnant with our second child, and then about 3 weeks later everything just went down hill. She insists that there is no way she can get over being bitter - but I don;t think that she is willing to try - I know you can't forgive and forget, but things can be worked through and talked about.
The W has even commented on how I lost weight (biking 10+ miles a day, 20 lbs lost), and how the therapy may be helping me(although she is not sure she sees a difference - but she isn't around much) my close friends have noticed it and are amazed at the way nothing gets me anger anymore, they can even hear the change in my attitude on the phone. She even said that I will make a good husband someday - for who, who knows.
Its just mind boggling how fast things turn around from small positive steps to really really negative attitudes.
I think the thing that hurt her the most about me not telling her that i had an atty was because she had sat down to talk with me that she had filed for custody so I wouldn't be blindsided by it. From the way she spoke today while angry still, it doesn't seem like the two of us will be working it out very easily - the attys might be the front line on this one, unless she calms down, and thinks things through. The one thing about my atty is that she is a distant relative - just happens to be half-brothers aunt - whom the W and i have met and talked to at holidays for a year or so now(I actually choose here as the atty hoping the W would be more comfortable). Maybe I'm just too nice a person now and always thinking about the W's convenience and feelings.
There was one thing that my atty did point out today at one point after my W wouldn't talk to me, when I was sitting with my atty she directed me to look at her. She actually had some tears in her eyes and was upset or hurt - the atty seemed to think that she may still care or have some feelings still there. Albeit that if she does she is certainly trying to keep them from surfacing and trying to avoid them bringing us closer to R.
Look, court and attnys and anything legal is scary stuff! Especially when its about a marriage and custody - two very emotionally charged reasons for needing an attny. Lets say you won 10 million bucks and retained an attny to protect you - that would be awesome but when you need an attny for something not so great, well, it adds lots of "ick" to the mix.
I would say to give your W space right now. She feels blindsided (never a good feeling), she might be scared, frustrated, nervous, upset and a whole slew of things. And right now, in her eyes, you created all those feelings by getting an attny and her not knowing about it. That is not to say you did anything wrong by retaining counsel for protection and guidance but right now its doubtful she will see it that way. Anything you say or do right now is just going to add fuel to the fire and create more negative feelings IMO.
Maybe you can talk to your attny about the best approach to use. For example - if your W does not have counsel then I think the attny would have to contact your W directly. And maybe your attny can use an approach that really gets the message across that you would like to keep things friendly and amicable. Who wants to get in a legal war? NOBODY! But right now your W feels blindsided so she will go to self protection mode.
It's so difficult to resist the urge to contact her today. I feel so much pain in my heart that I may have killed the only thought in her mind for R. Right now I'm doing my best to make it through the day without contacting her and letting her cool off, and possibly trying to contact her tomorrow after work to spend time with my S.
Well I called the wife to try and see our son, or make arrangemnets to see him for tommorrow. The W answered denied me seeing him at all, I tried to explain to her that she can't leaglly keep me from being able to see her and she hung up. 15 minutes later, she called back and said that she is meeting with a lawyer on Thursday, and that her lawyer will contact mine, and I may be able to see him Thursday evening
This time she stayed on the phone a little longer telling me that because i blindsided her yesterday by having a lawyer present that that is the final straw. She said any trust that she had regained in me is now gone, and that any chance at this even being friendly is over. That she will have her lawyer serve me with divorce papers now also. I asked her to just keep it to custody for now and lets see what happens from there. With how angry and upset she is at me, all I can do is wait and see, I'll have to disappear, back to the last resort technique - now read that chapter 4 times, from her for a while hoping she gets over it. I was even at the point that something old from four relationship grabbed her attention.
So now I know that I fell way back, beyond square one, and will have a lot more of her anger and bitterness to deal with. I still have hope in my heart that this marriage can be saved - hopefully there is a small glimmer in hers also.
Anyone with any advise or suggestions, I could defiantly use them at this point.
I have a question, which I'm sure has been asked here in the past.
Do I continue to wear my wedding ring or do I take it off?
Right now I am holding on to the smallest degree of hope that the W and I can salvage the M. She has already taken her rings off, and I continue to wear mine. At one point when I was picking up my S3, in front of her he asked me to take it off so he could play with it. My answer to him in front of W, was that no it daddy's and will stay on daddy's hand until mommy forces me to remove it. No response from her and we got ready to leave.
I think you should wear it as long as you are committed to the M. I wouldn't phrase it to S3 that way because it is somewhat disparaging to W. I would say something more like "It's daddy's and it's very special so I don't ever take it off". Same message but without the dig.
I think you should wear it as long as you are committed to the M. I wouldn't phrase it to S3 that way because it is somewhat disparaging to W. I would say something more like "It's daddy's and it's very special so I don't ever take it off". Same message but without the dig.
Thanks Song that does sound much nicer - probably would've gained a little respect from the W saying it like that.
Thanks Song that does sound much nicer - probably would've gained a little respect from the W saying it like that.
It was a loaded question: there is almost no answer that you could have given that wouldn't be seen as pursuit. She has already taken her ring off; hence by acknowledging that yours is staying on, you are both 1) making her feel guilty for removing her ring and breaking her M covenant, and 2) that you are still trying to work things out in contravention of her wishes to end the M.
Your answer, and songs' were both ok, but I don't think there was a answer that you could have given that would have been positive.
Alright, the W went to her lawyer on Thursday during the afternoon, she wouldn't let me seem him Thurs night - no big deal I had backup plans with friends. She did say that she retained the lawyer and that her lawyer was contacting mine to make arrange visitation until court.
Friday evening I called her wondering if he could sleep over - she wouldn't let him, and I later found out that she dropped him off at her aunts to go out to movies with her cousin.
She said didn't your lawyer contact you - no not yet - why what's up? - She said I could see him Saturday but wouldn't give me any details, just that she did not fill out any paper work for D. About 30 minutes later lawyer called, the W's lawyer contacted mine - deal is normal custody every other weekend and 2 night for dinner on off weeks. Then my lawyer told me that the W had withdrawn the custody papers, but still wants to go through with getting a D, but her lawyer is too busy until next month to file anything. Good news for me, I guess, gives me about 30 days to try to convince her that I cn be the man that she wants in her life.
Saturday was a great day with the son, we went to library to make a mothers day gift for her from him. Spent the rest of the day playing and took a walk on the beach when the sun finally came out.
When I returned him at 6pm Saturday, she invited me, I went in figured it would just be quick, truck was even running in the road. She and I spoke for almost 1 hour, that's how i found out about her going to movies. Not sure what else we spoke about, I just tried to validate everything that she complained about me.
On Friday night when we spoke I asked her if I could drop off a book for her to read. She agreed, so i dropped t off, the book was by author Mort Fertel, Marriage Fitness: 4 Steps to Building & Maintaining Phenomenal Love (if i can't say that here please edit post). She took the book and just looked at the title. When I dropped S3 off Saturday night she had told me that she already read half of it and found it interesting - commenting that some of the things in the book she used to already do.
So here I am today - trying to stick to the last resort, and trying to keep myself in the dark and resisting the urge to contact her.
Sorry about jumping around so much in the post.
Be careful with the Marriage Fitness stuff. I followed that for 3 months, and it really set me back. It takes an approach of pursuit, which is the direct opposite of DB'ing, and in my sitch, it just pushed my W away. It seems like a good book to follow when both partners are willing to work on the M, but when one has checked out, I think it causes more harm than good.
Be careful with the Marriage Fitness stuff. I followed that for 3 months, and it really set me back. It takes an approach of pursuit, which is the direct opposite of DB'ing, and in my stitch, it just pushed my W away. It seems like a good book to follow when both partners are willing to work on the M, but when one has checked out, I think it causes more harm than good.
Hi Song and thanks for the heads up. I wasn't planning on using any over the marriage fitness stuff at this point, simply because it feels more like something that should be used when a couple is together. I just wanted her to read it, maybe ignite a small spark in her heart and try to show her that there is always hope.
Right now the communication between us is very limited, although starting to build up again since she met with her lawyer, any communication between us at this point I'm letting her initiate and just trying to keep myself focused on DB'ing methods - especially the last resort.
Even on Saturday when I dropped S3 off, she was the one who invited me in and started to talk to me about everything. Although I must admit, it was I who asked for the hug when leaving and surprisingly she was willing. It was so nice to hold her tight in my arms once more.
So I'm on day 4 of not speaking to or hearing from the W. Its killing me not hearing S3 voice on the phone. I've been good about giving her space until yesterday evening. After work I had to go to her job to do a computer repair - lucky for me by the time I got there she left. I fixed the owners laptop, and while talking to him about little things, I wrote her a note and left it on her desk. The note simply stated Hi and have a wonderful day
The owner saw the whole thing(he is well aware of everything between the W and I) and as I was leaving to put the note on her desk, he asked me if her door was open. It was, but i had said to him I had only planned on sliding it under the door. Since the door was open and he was with me, I simply placed it on her desk.
I have no idea how she reacted - if she even acknowledged or recieved the note. But hopefully it brightened up her day and put a smile on her face. Now for me to go back to taking care of myself and try my best not to contact the W.
Hi All. I didn't make it through the day yesterday without contacting the W. I called her while at work - just wanted to say hi and see how she and S3 are doing. We only talked shortly - I ended it before I got too excited to be hearing her voice.
I came home from work, and finally got to cut the grass - the rain had let up for a day. After that I went for a bike ride (beach and back - about 11 miles). When I got home I had a message on the answering machine. It was the S3 - just rambling on -
great to hear his voice - messaged W to make sure everything was OK - she immediately called back. Everything was fine - S3 wanted to call someone - so she had him call me. After speaking to S3 for a few minutes about his day W took the phone. We spoke for a few minutes - really not about anything - which is more then what it has been - she asked me what I have been up to and told just taking care of house and riding bike and trying to get back in shape(lost 25 pounds now in about 6 weeks - yeah for me 20 to go to reach my goal).
From there we hung up and i finished up work around the house.
That brings us to today - I sent her a message after going out with her uncle after work (we are really close over time). Got a reply back that she was at beach with S3 watching fisherman - told her have a good night and if she wants to chat later to let me know.
Now on a side note, my parents just got back from vacation after 3 weeks, they baby sit daily for us. They had the W over for dinner Tuesday - before seeing me - but hey what do I care - just glad that they are all still talking. I spoke to my father today and they were discussing taken S3 to Florida next month for 2 weeks - The W asked if she could come down there to take S3 to Disney World. My father's response to her was that I thought the 2 of you were going to bring him there together. W responded to him saying that we would, now here's my W that wants a divorce, yet still wants to bring our S3 to Disney world together and stay under the same roof after being apart since the end of February. Does this seem strange to anyone or just me maybe there's just something that I don't understand?
But now its off to do some work around the house. Tomorrow should prove to be an interesting day - W is receiving flowers for mother's day from both S3 and I - Yes I know its pursuing - but my way of looking at it is she is still and always will be the mother of my S3 and am grateful for that.
Well The W received the flowers at work - I got any email from her thanking me for them. I had called her and asked her to go Tuesday for dinner - as a late mothers day treat. She declined - no reason as for why just no I can't, and that the flowers are enough - I said ok not a problem.
I then asked her if she would try and talk to me a little bit more, I was trying to open up the lines of conversation between us a little more. The answer i got for that was why, I really have nothing to say to you, and with what the therapist said, when we tried counseling, is that I didn't want to hear her nagging and that she had nothing nice to say. I told her its alright, the therapist is not always right, I would like to hear your nagging and everything else, no matter how mean, that you have to say, about whatever is on your mind. I didn't get any kind of response so I guess I'll have to just wait and see if she opens up to me. I'm hoping that she does so that I can get some more ideas on where I need to work on myself and improvement to become a better person.
I would like to hear your nagging and everything else, no matter how mean, that you have to say, about whatever is on your mind.
WOW!!!
Why would you EVER tell her that? You're telling her it's ok to be mean to you? I know it sux and you just want to have some communication but you don't want that, ever.
[quote=volleydog]
WOW!!!
Why would you EVER tell her that? You're telling her it's ok to be mean to you? I know it sux and you just want to have some communication but you don't want that, ever.
Hi Volleydog -
I told her that because I feel it is something that I can handle coming from her - and that it may help her let go of some of her anger towards me. I didn't realize that it would come across as telling her its ok to be mean. But also if I know my wife once she starts to vent about something, she usually starts to let it go.
I'm hoping that it will allow some of her resentment go and open up the communication between us again, allowing her to see the changes that I am making in me - now I just have to make sure that these changes stick. Would really be bad to fall back into old habits, especially if I can reopen the lines of communication.
I'm not looking to pursue her - just trying to show her that people can change and even though she hates me - thin line between love and hate - that I can be the person that she once was in love with.
On Friday, I got a thank you for the mother's day flowers - sent to her work.
So here's how my weekend went. I got to get my son Fri night from parents house after they watched him for the day. We stayed there for dinner - by the time we got home he was a sleep. Friday afternoon the W had said that she would drop clothes off at the house Friday night for son for communion on Sat. No bag at house, when he got home. Called W - after she finally answered - took 30 mins to get in touch with her, she said that she couldn't find anything that she liked for him and was going to store in morning.
Asked her what she was doing - out bowling with a couple of friends - some people we used to bowl with together - told her have a fun night and don't drink too much and drive.
Off to bed for me.
Saturday comes around - The W brings by clothes for our son, I get him ready to go, and she starts getting changed in front of me. Made me feel uncomfortable, but had to resist any urges. I ask her how bowling was and she said it wasn't any fun, I asked what she meant, she said that it just wasn't the same. Not sure what she meant as I didn't want to press the issue.
Off to the Church in separate cars, half way through ceremony son gets thirsty, I forgot to bring anything. I bribe him for an ice cream shake after wards - if he behaves. W hears me tell him, so I ask her if she would like to go. First response was a no, then within 5 minutes, she says yes. Cool - baby steps?? Get to the ice cream store order shakes - figure we'll get in our own cars go separate ways - wrong W asks if we can sit in the truck to drink them? Ok - i don't mind.
Finish the shakes, W comes back to house to change and put away clothes she left out - and then before leaving she says to me - "Remember when you asked when I stopped loving you a few weeks ago?" I answered yes, she says I never answered, I told her I don't expect her to. She tells me she never stopped loving me, and that she feels like I never loved her or showed her any love. I apologized to her told her she was right and I then said I do love you, always have and always will.
She left for the day - and I spent quality time with my son.
Dropped him off on Sunday - she wanted him for mother's day, which our son made her a card, and we picked up flowers for him to give her.
I dropped him off, told her to have a great day, hugged her and was on my way.
Sent her a text Sunday night to have a good night,
Now on today, called her at work, asked if she wanted anything for lunch from deli - she brought lunch with her. Then she started on a rant how everything is different. I said to her I don't understand - what's different - she answered everything - she said that the way my parents act when she drops off/picks up son - i offered to do it for her if she felt uncomfortable.
She said everything is different between us, that we are getting a D, I answered to her I understand that's what you want, but I am doing my best to change myself and be the person that she wants to have in her life and save this marriage. She just told me to leave her alone, and that she will get a restraining order.
Communication was left off between us with me just sending her and email :
I'm sorry that things feel different for you, I don't think that my parents are trying to make anything feel differnet.
I know I am trying to change to be the person that you want in your life - the person that you wish you had married.
I also know that I do love you - and yeah I see know that i should've been more involved in everything - which I regret that I was not.
Remember Sat. when you said that you never stopped loving me - It was nice to hear that - just made everything more confusing for me - if you never stopped then what is going on between us? Why are we doing this?
You know I love you - and unfortunately it has taken this separation for me to see the errors in my ways - I know things won't/can't change over night, but i do want things to change.
I want to be the one who helps you live out your dreams and goals, and to spend my time showing you that I can be the one that can do that.
I just don't understand how we can go from having a good time on Saturday, to you not talking to me today? If you could give me a little insight into that I would really appreciate it.
You know that I'm not looking for a fight, not looking to even argue with you, all I want to do is reopen the lines of communication between us, in the hopes of bringing your dreams to a reality.
I just feel so lost and not sure what is going on anymore, it seems like when the good times between us come out - it becomes a nightmare after wards.
Anybody have any advise that you can offer as to what is going on through her mind?
Well I got a response to my email from her -
all I got was a
"Can you please just stop."
I'm going to honor her request, and hopefully she will be missing me, and try to contact me. Back to just working on me - and waiting to see S3 again - not exactly sure of when - do have 3 tickets for a baseball game on Saturday, maybe the W will be willing to go(who knows), if not can always get someone else.
W called me at work this morning - because she recieved an email i sent to her by mistake - mistyped email address. She wanted to know what it was about - nothing bad it was more of just a journal that I've been writing to help keep my head straight. She wanted to know who it was supposed to go to - explained to her me, then she started saying oh a journal to use in court? No a journal to help me better myself - I then explained to her that I do not want to go to court, that i am trying to R our M and be a better person - all she would say to me is I can never forgive you completely or look at you the same. I reassured her feelings that she was right and I wasn't looking for complete forgiveness, and that I was looking to be a friend with her. I then asked her if we could discuss this at a later point in time when neither of us was at work, and she said there is nothing to discuss. That we will be getting a D. I said I know, your mind is set, and you won't give me a chance to prove that I can change. She simply said people don't change - and that she has given me too many chances and tired of trying to keep everything together between us from the start.
I simply answered that people can change, and now I am the one that is trying to save the marriage and I wish I had seen the problems in the past - maybe I would've been smart enough to change sooner.
Biggest regret right now that I have is that it took her leaving to see that all along, the problem is me and that I do need to change to be a better person.
You really should have ended the conv. with the comment about bettering myself. The rest got you nowhere you wanted to be, she knows you want to fix the R/M and there is nothing you can SAY that will change her mind.
You really should have ended the conv. with the comment about bettering myself. The rest got you nowhere you wanted to be, she knows you want to fix the R/M and there is nothing you can SAY that will change her mind.
Thinking back on the conversation you are right - the rest of it really was pointless - one of these days I will get this think before speaking thing right.
The only thing that came from the conversation was her saying that she does still love me, and does not want to see me hurt or anything bad ever happen to me.
1 hour left to work day - can't wait for it to be over - go home and ride bike to work out some of the thoughts that are racing through my head.
Litl,
I just spent some time trying to read up on your thread. There is a lot going on here, and I think that you need to learn a bit more about what DBing is all about.
Before I point out some mistakes, let me first say we ALL make mistakes, and it is ok - we just need to learn from them and not make them again. When you get good advice here or look at your own posts and see where you went wrong, commit to yourself to not make the same mistake again.
Your W has shown several times that she had not closed the door.. until you start to pursue and pressure. YOU MUST STOP THIS. Go back and read your own thread, you will see exactly where W pulls away, gets angry, slams the door.. and right before that you will see your mistake. LEARN FROM THEM.
Buddy, things are not over until they are over, and your W has shown more light than many sitches you will read here, so stop obsessing on her. Man, I KNOW IT IS HARD!
You also absolutely must stop trying to make her see your changes, stop trying to get her to think differently, stop trying to discuss things with her rationally - this will get you nowhere but hurt! Back away, work on yourself. The ONLY way to recover a damaged M like this is to work on what you can - YOU. there is NOTHING you can do to change W or make her see a chance. That will have to come to her on her own if and when it does.
Go back and find your positives:
No D filed yet (and even if it does, dont dispair, that is not the end either)
W upset about failing communication with others besides you - LEAVE IT ALONE they are things she needs to work through.
Improving yourself
Improving your relationship with your S.
I really liked reading about her sitting with you for the ice cream. You have to let her drive on things like this, dont look at them as opportunities to try to change her mind, just enjoy and let her enjoy and let her see that she still enjoys your company - if you keep dragging her back into the ugly R discussions, then you are just making her see what she dosnt want.
You dont want the old M, so stop talking about it. If it helps, imagine she is someone you are not married to, and you are trying to be the kind of person she may want to date. You wouldnt ask a date about marriage and love, so dont ask her.
Hang in there buddy, the roller coaster is brutal. But you will become better if you work at it, and no matter what you will end up ok. Work towards OK, and dont make OK dependant on W.
I just spent some time trying to read up on your thread. There is a lot going on here, and I think that you need to learn a bit more about what DBing is all about.
Before I point out some mistakes, let me first say we ALL make mistakes, and it is ok - we just need to learn from them and not make them again. When you get good advice here or look at your own posts and see where you went wrong, commit to yourself to not make the same mistake again.
Thanks X, I know I have made numerous mistakes - and when I do pick up on them I defiantly try not to make them again - but sometimes it just seems to happen. I definitely appreciate when someone points out something that I do wrong or a flaw.
Your W has shown several times that she had not closed the door.. until you start to pursue and pressure. YOU MUST STOP THIS. Go back and read your own thread, you will see exactly where W pulls away, gets angry, slams the door.. and right before that you will see your mistake. LEARN FROM THEM.
Buddy, things are not over until they are over, and your W has shown more light than many sitches you will read here, so stop obsessing on her. Man, I KNOW IT IS HARD!
I guess then i really must be blind to seeing within her actions that she hasn't closed the door yet - and I do understand how pursuing her does make her withdraw. I am finally starting to learn from all of my mistakes.
I really liked reading about her sitting with you for the ice cream. You have to let her drive on things like this, dont look at them as opportunities to try to change her mind, just enjoy and let her enjoy and let her see that she still enjoys your company - if you keep dragging her back into the ugly R discussions, then you are just making her see what she dosnt want.
You don't want the old M, so stop talking about it. If it helps, imagine she is someone you are not married to, and you are trying to be the kind of person she may want to date. You wouldn't ask a date about marriage and love, so dont ask her.
That was one thing that i viewed has a great time - most contact we really had with each other in a long time - not once did we argue/fight, and there wasn't any talk of R/M - just general life and what has been going on at each others jobs.
And you are correct I don't want the old M back, I want one that is like starting from new and much better then the old.
Hang in there buddy, the roller coaster is brutal. But you will become better if you work at it, and no matter what you will end up ok. Work towards OK, and don't make OK dependent on W.
Rollercoaster ride indeed - still not sure what set her off on Monday being as nasty as she was and saying things are different - all she would say was that on Saturday she was just trying to be friendly, and that she does love me and doesn't want to see anything bad happen to be(ILYBNILWY).
Now today she called again at work - however after yesterday and talking to her on phone while at work (yeah tears in eyes) just like you everything makes me so emotional and feel like crying, I promised myself no more talking while at work, and have a good co-worker helping me to enforce that.
Wether I call her back later or not - that's still undecided - probably not as I have a lot to do to keep busy after work - cut lawn, ride back at least 10 miles, laundry and keep PMA.
Another thing that i have to consider is I have tickets to local AM League Baseball team on Saturday night - hoping to take S3 - not sure if I should even ask W, if she would like to go or just grab my brother or a friend to go to game.
Another thing that i have to consider is I have tickets to local AM League Baseball team on Saturday night - hoping to take S3 - not sure if I should even ask W, if she would like to go or just grab my brother or a friend to go to game.
Dont invite her - just grab a brother or friend and go have fun. Forget about your sitch for a few hours, it will do you good. and if W asks who you went with, just say some friends, and drop it. Mystery.
Dont invite her - just grab a brother or friend and go have fun. Forget about your sitch for a few hours, it will do you good. and if W asks who you went with, just say some friends, and drop it. Mystery.
Thanks for the advice Xalelle - its a very good point - it will help me to forget about it for a little while.
I did speak to W today - she called job again - didn't answer, no message left. Called her back later to make sure everything was ok. She asked what I was doing - told her working and really busy - asked if everything was ok. She said yes, so I asked why she called, her brief answer was that she wanted to see how I was doing and make sure I was good, thanks for asking. I told her I was good and had to get back to work. Told her if she wants to talk to me then she can call me later after work.
Now I'm starting to see that as I try and back off, it does seem that she is trying to reach me out to me more, and starting to see how you could be right that she hasn't completely slammed the door on me yet. Thank you for the eye opener Xalelle.
Could use a little help bit of help or opinions/advise with this.
I sent the W a text last night asking if she wanted to talk at all. She answered asking what about. I said to her doesn't matter whatever or anything - she replied I have nothing to say.
I asked her if I was still seeing S3 Saturday night that I made plans for him and I, she answered with a will he be staying overnight? I told her he doesn't have to. Well I never got an answer to that after 10 mins(it was starting to get later and I was tired) - I sent a message have a good night sleep. Only to get a response to that message asking what the plans are. I never answered - not sure if/when i will.
He's my dilemma that I am not so sure of. If she has nothing to talk or say to me, why would she call me at work 2 days in a row, when I have made no attempt to contact her in anyway. I have spoken to my S3, but only during the day while my parents are watching him.
Anyone have any incite or opinions as to why she might be calling me, or what may be going through her mind?
I know there is really no way of knowing, I was just wondering if she is just playing head games and stringing me along until she gets what she wants, or if she is riding a similar roller coaster as me and just trying to hide it from me?
She is doing what the majority of the people on this board wish their spouses would do and that is pursuit you a bit. Then she remembers that she is supposed to be divorcing you and gets mad at herself and pulls back and gets nasty. Rinse and repeat. You will hear this by more than one poster. We want what we cannot have. If she feels like you are pulling away she pulls you back. When you pull her she pulls away. Nasty cycle, but it is how it goes. Stop pursuing. Let her come to you. She knows you don't want a divorce. You have made it plainly clear. Continue your changes and be the best you possible. She will notice. Enjoy the rollercoaster. LOL
She is doing what the majority of the people on this board wish their spouses would do and that is pursuit you a bit. Then she remembers that she is supposed to be divorcing you and gets mad at herself and pulls back and gets nasty. Rinse and repeat. You will hear this by more than one poster. We want what we cannot have. If she feels like you are pulling away she pulls you back. When you pull her she pulls away. Nasty cycle, but it is how it goes. Stop pursuing. Let her come to you. She knows you don't want a divorce. You have made it plainly clear. Continue your changes and be the best you possible. She will notice. Enjoy the rollercoaster. LOL
Thanks goingtofixME.
I don't understand why would we want the WAS "doing what the majority of the people on this board wish their spouses would do and that is pursuit you a bit." It only hurts more and makes it really difficult for me to control my emotions.
I understand that we always want what we cannot have, but she has made it plainly clear in no other words but hers "Face it, we are getting a divorce." Why would she want to pull me back in? From the little communication between us, she seems like she is on a one track mind and full speed ahead.
I have stopped pursuing, despite a few slips here and there, that hopefully now I've learned from my mistakes (many thanks to the people here), and I'm continuing to work on me and trying to keep PMA and hoping that she sees that I am capable of and determined to change.
So the W called me again this morning at work(3 days in a row now) - I answered this time. She asked where I wanted to take S3 sat night, so i told her to a baseball game and immediately got a with who? Told her I wasn't sure yet. End of conversation, I told her I had to get back to work. Still waiting to hear from her if she will let me bring S3 to baseball game tomorrow night.
PS- I was never really a rollercoaster fan - and now even less then before.
Just journalizing and venting right now right now
Today started out a really rough day for me - I was awake most of the night till about 4am, missing the W more then normal for some reason. Found my self writing in a memo book that i started to keep around 2am for a couple of hours, and was more overcome with emotions then usual. After about 4 hours sleep decide to get out of bed and go for a bike ride - started out heading to beach and back as a route - at the beach changed my mind on the route, 11 miles was not a long enough ride, so i ended up going on a round about path home added another 5 miles - thinking back I should've kept going for another 5 or 10 more.
Got home - 2 missed calls on home phone and 1 on cell - all from the W - no messages left. Call her back and she answers "Nice of you to answer the phone", I just told her that I was out - I didn't think I owed her any explanation to where I was or what I was doing. Although she does know that I started riding my bike and exercising to lose weight and get back in shape.
She then asks me what time is the baseball game tonight - told her 7pm but I would like to get there around 6pm. She says OK, is he sleeping over? I left that up to her by simply saying I will bring him home tonight if that is what you want. She told me to keep him over night that he will probably fall asleep on the ride home. So now here I am 2.5 hours later trying to find things to keep my self occupied and my mind off of her. All ready power washed the deck and patio furniture. Weird part is in the past I was always a very sarcastic person and usually angry or ill tempered - That person seems to have completely vanished from within me - now I'm just overwhelmed with lots of other emotions - I guess IC does really help.
Why is it that she has to be so negative and nasty on a simple phone call? And on all days one where I am already struggling to try and keep a PMA and be in good spirits with a smile on my face?
I'm trying my hardest not to pursue her and have to constantly remind myself just back off, try to avoid initiating contact and let her be, but I will admit I do find it very hard to resist the urge at times.
Hi there. My name is Nicole. I don't have any advice, I just wanted to say that I understand, and am feeling the same. Hopeful one minute and completely hopeless the next. The mixed messages are so confusing. My H says things like it is over and done his mind is made up then he texts me good morning how are you. I am like...is he just wondering, does he really care how I am because the truth is I am doing BAD HORRIBLE TERRIBLE MESSED UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyway, I wish you the best...take care and write me anytime.
Nicole
More Journalizing
Had a great time Saturday night at baseball game with S3 - they only played 4 innings over the 3 hour time frame due to fog - so the game get delayed and then postponed - So now I get to take S3 to another game. W was right he passed out on the way home and slept late the next morning. After getting up and having breakfast, I brought him to W around 11am. Knock on door no answer - her car is there. Call cell - she answers - she didn't expect me that early and was in shower - said she would be right out - i answered its ok, take your time, after a few minutes she opened door, asked me why I brought him back so early? told her its was her day with him and didn't want to take any time away from you.
Surprisingly she invited me in and wanted to know how the game was and everything else. She said didn't you get my text messages last night? No.. what messages? Oh I sent you a couple of text messages to see how the game was going. Checked my phone - never received anything - my inbox was full - apologized to her that I missed them. We talked for a little while and played with our S for a short period of time - altogether maybe there for 45-60 mins.
Then she tells me that she is taking him to game Tuesday, only because his cousin is learning to cheer and they will be doing a short cheer at the game - told her to have a great time.
Kissed S3 bye, hugged her(no reciprocation) and left on with my day. Still very little communication between us - really wish that there would be more between us, but at this point I'm doing alright with the little exchanges that we do have. Just trying to give her her space, and work on me, hoping that she decides to try and work everything out between us.
I could use some opinions on an idea that has been kicking around in my mind.
Whenever I see the W, picking up or dropping off S3, she always looks exhausted, if I ask her whats wrong she just complains that she is tired and stressed out.
Here is my idea that I was thinking about doing:
This weekend I have S3 all weekend, and I was thinking of booking her an appointment at a day spa to get a message and some relaxation. This is not something that I would have done for her in the past.
Part of me thinks its pursuing, which is why I'm looking for various input from others if this would be a good idea to for me to do for her.
Thank you in advance for all of your help.
For what it is worth, that sounds like pursuing to me. You can't do now, what you didn't do then in that regard. It is likely to just provoke derision. Michelle writes about it as giving the impression that we are trying to buy our spouyses affection. It sounds like we have a fairly similar sitch. One guy's advice would be to focus on GAL and detaching. I mean really detach. Don't look over your shoulder for a reaction. Detach. Find a way to live your life without waiting for her. And the good news is, no matter what happens, you will be better prepared for your future.
For what it is worth, that sounds like pursuing to me. You can't do now, what you didn't do then in that regard. It is likely to just provoke derision. Michelle writes about it as giving the impression that we are trying to buy our spouyses affection. It sounds like we have a fairly similar sitch. One guy's advice would be to focus on GAL and detaching. I mean really detach. Don't look over your shoulder for a reaction. Detach. Find a way to live your life without waiting for her. And the good news is, no matter what happens, you will be better prepared for your future.
Thanks Clueless.
I knew it would be seen as pursuing - never thought of it from the buying perspective. I have been doing my best at GAL and trying my hardest to detach, The getting her the message is because she would not do it for herself and it would just relieve her and help her to feel a better. Yeah I know - not very good at detaching from her - I still care and worry about how she is doing/feeling.
LOL at myself - I just remembered part of the conversation between my W and I on Saturday when I picked up son. I over the past week or so lightened my hair color using peroxide a little at a time. Saturday when I picked up S3, the W asked what i did to my hair? I told her I lightened a little. She said the it looks strange and she doesn't like it. I simply told her that's OK, your opinion and you don't have to like it. End of topic on that - it felt good not confronting her about why she didn't like it or making an argument out of it like i would have in the past.
Journalizing a little
Tried to call W today at work to find out when i would see S3 again, was told she was out sick. Thought to myself, no problem she is probably staying out today to watch him because my mother who always watches him is really sick(start of pneumonia). Call her cell - no answer, left message - she called back after I got home from work, she was really out sick and feeling miserable. Offered to watch S3 for her tomorrow(I would take day off of work or even half day if she dropped him off at preschool in morning). She told me she doesn't really feel like she will be able to work tomorrow - i told her so stay home and I'll get him first thing in morning. She said OK and i went to get ready to go for a bike ride. About 30 mins later as I was heading out door, she calls back, can he just sleep over the house tonight? I told her sure - when do you want me to get him - her answer right now. Told her I would - asked her if they ate any dinner - nothing - offered to pick her up some dinner or get her any medication if she wanted - she declined said she had some. Get to W's place - she answers the door - still in pajamas - looking exhausted and worn - i felt so bad for her - could tell by touching her head she was running a fever. Asked her to try and get some rest and feel better - kissed her on the head and took S3 and left.
How come it sounds so much easier to detach and GAL - and not show that I care for her as much as I do?
I'm afraid that she may see it as trying to pursue her and just pull away more.
Found out tonight that she may have disconnected the text messaging option on our cell phone plan - seems like definitely on my phone, about 75% sure on her phone also - she said she was thinking about it - didn't think she really would - it was one of the things that led up to me being so jealous with her always texting a guy that she works with(claims she always talked about me with him) - maybe that EA is over with like she had told me a month ago(that she has nothing to talk about with him anymore since we separated). I could be wrong though she could also have limited who can text her - not going to question it for now, just going to let time take its course and have patience and view this as a positive step in the mean time.
It does seem like communication between us may be starting to become a little more frequent - nothing about R or M - last thing I want to bring up. Besides right now its all about getting to be where I want to be in my life and being the person that i want to be. I can't change her, but I can change me, my attitude and goals, and from there she may follow suit and change also.
Yesterday was a great day with S3 - perfect use of a sick day
-
He spent the night prior, W called in morning - making sure I bring him to pre-school and put his jacket on him - OK no problem. We had breakfast dropped him off at school, went home did a few things around house, had to pick S3 up at 11:30 am. Get to the school a little early - waiting in parking lot W calls again - don't forget to pick him up - told her i was already there - offered to get her lunch - said no thanks nothing tastes right - OK hope you feel better.
After picking up S3, we went down to beach until he decided he wanted lunch. We picked up McD's went home ate, S3 took a nap - W called again - to see how day was going - told her fine - he's sleeping. When he woke we went and played on swing set W called again - asking me if I could keep him overnight once more and bring him home before work in morning - sure no problem - get some rest and feel better.
Seems like the W doesn't think I can take care of or manage being with S3 - I started feeling like she was checking up on me, but it was still nice having the short conversations on the phone with her.
Dropped S3 off this morning - W looked much better, just complaining that her back hurts. Told her maybe she should only go in for a half day work - do payroll and leave and get some more rest - she agreed saying that is a good idea.
Haven't heard from her anymore today - haven't tried to call her - but I can't wait work to be over and the weekend begin - S3 is spending the weekend with me.
So far it has been a great weekend with S3. Picked him up Friday evening after a short bike ride after work. We just played and had dinner Friday night. W called around 9:30 pm Fri night, said she is not going to work sat - found someone to work for her. Said she still doesn't feel well - offered to bring her breakfast in morning - she accepted - her usual onion bagel and a coffee. Spent the rest of the day playing with S3 after dropping off breakfast.
Sunday morning now - home phone and cell phone keep ringing the W keeps calling. Never answered it, or called W back - busy just hanging out with S3. Around 1-1:30 pm W shows up at house. Wants to know how S3 is doing, she's worried that he might get sick from her. Complains that I don't answer the phone or call back. Simply told her that he is fine, and that she is going to have to just learn to trust me with him that I am capable to taking care of him and if he was sick I would take him to doctor.
With that said she left.
WTH - this is what she wanted - is it that hard for her to trust me with our S3, that she has her mother drive her over here to make sure that everything is ok?
Looking back at the Weekend with S3
Had a really great weekend.
Friday night W's uncle called invited me over for movie and pizza with family - declined even though he and I are pretty close, told him I would be uncomfortable with W's dad, grandmother and other aunt being there at this time. Agreed to meet for beers one day during the week.
Saturday night the W called me - actually talked for 20 mins - more then what we usually talk in a week lately.
Yesterday took S3 for a bike ride - we rode to where the W is staying (her mom's) - called her on the cell from around the block - she came outside and was thrilled to see him.
Before you jump on me - I know this can be seen as pursuing - wasn't met to be. She actually spent some time outside with S3 and I - almost 2 hours. She even put a towel in the grass for us to sit on and brought out a bowl of grapes. We just hung out and I tried to keep a PMA and "act as if" attitude and spoke about everything except for us. My S3 had butterflies that she suggested he let go, so he did that - kinda awesome watching him hold them and fly off of his hand.
He left before spending too much time there - hugged her goodbye - she actually hugged back a little for a change.
That night when dropping S off at W's he began to scream and cry - he wanted to stay with me. Pretty much just dropped him in the house and ran off - didn't want the W to see the tears it was bringing to my eyes the way he was acting.
All of that after the S3 saying over the weekend that mommy misses and talks about you, and that he wants to live at home with daddy and mommy again. Asking him where he hears that from and he says mommy - now I know he is a good story teller because he has told some good ones in the past. Believe 50% of what you see and even less of what you hear.
Now here is my backslide from everything that I have been working on. Last night I left the W a card on her card with an appointment for a day at the spa - I figured after being sick for the past week and stuck inside she could use the relaxation for herself. I booked her the appointment and just left her the card with the date and time. When I spoke to her earlier she did appreciate it, but has to work when I booked it for to make up for all the time out sick
I told her to just call and reschedule - that they will take care of her. Then she asks me what the head to toe package is anyway. Told her it would be One Hour European Facial, One Hour Massage, Spa Pedicure, Spa Manicure. Told her she deserves it and too just relax and enjoy it.
And after seeing her hands and feet yesterday she could use it
- well that's what I thought didn't dare say it.
Back on to working on me, have tickets to baseball game for Friday, it's the W's time with son, hoping she will let me take him - but I'll address that with her over the next couple of days.
I think I'm just too nice of a person lately towards the W. I asked her if she wanted to come over for dinner for fajitas one night - she declined - no big deal. Last night I made the fajitas for myself. Called the W, knowing how she has been sick, and offered to bring some over for her and S3. Surprisingly she accepts. Dropped off dinner for her gave S3 hug and kiss - told W hope she feels better and left.
Went home and ate - a little while later W calls - she thanked me for bringing her over the meal, and said it was delicious. She stayed on the phone for a few minutes, just asking how my day was, and what was going on at work. After talking to her for a few, she beat me to ending the conversation - saying I'll talk to you either later or tomorrow.
I'm starting to feel like things may turn around, but until she says something, I'm going to continue to focus on my changes and enjoying myself.
Called the W today while at work to find out how S3 is doing. We only spoke briefly - she took him to doc this morning - he has an ear infection and a cold - on medication. And she is still sick and not feeling well at all.
Then she turns the conversation on to me - saying do you have any idea how much I hate you? I tell her yes and i understand why you do. Then I get a you ruined everything. All I could do was agree with her and change the subject by telling her I would rather not discuss this now while I am at work, and later would be better.
End of conversation - I hate this roller coaster and that she keeps bringing up the past and throwing it back in my face.
I know its only been a little over 3 months that we have been separated, but does it ever get any easier if so when?
Or is it that I am just doing something completely wrong? I don't try to bother her - I give her her space, and every now and then I call to see how her and S3 are doing.
Then she turns the conversation on to me - saying do you have any idea how much I hate you? I tell her yes and i understand why you do. Then I get a you ruined everything. All I could do was agree with her and change the subject by telling her I would rather not discuss this now while I am at work, and later would be better.
Next time listen better and think before you speak:
saying do you have any idea how much I hate you?
No I don't know how you much you hate me. I am sorry you feel that way. I can understand some of the reasons why you are upset.
I understand you are hurt but I won't accept that I ruined everything. I am still willing, able and capable of restoring our M from my end.
but does it ever get any easier if so when?
when you realise you only control yourself - feelings, thoughts and actions
when you understand why you take the actions you are taking
when you detach - when you realise it's not all up to you
when you let all the negative emotions out - anger, fear, frustration, bitterness, guilt, shame
You can handle it.
Cheers
Coach
These ups and downs are textbook for WAS. Just accept it.
Think about this - perhaps part of the statement "do you know how much I hate you" is "do you know how much I hate that you are now who I wanted all along, but you werent when I wanted it" - it is very possible this is just a variant of the very common WAS "why do you try now? why after I have given up do you become what I wanted all along?"
I suggest you keep working on yourself, try to detach a bit more - I know it is hard with S3 involved, but do the best you can to distance from W. No more offers of dinners, no more taking care of her. Take care of you and S3, become the man you want to be. Either she will start to notice and the anger will back down, or you will just become better and move on.
Your W still shows lots of positive signs - read other threads here, you will see lots of threads that recover Ms that have these fits of fury, they are par for the course.
These ups and downs are textbook for WAS. Just accept it.
Think about this - perhaps part of the statement "do you know how much I hate you" is "do you know how much I hate that you are now who I wanted all along, but you werent when I wanted it" - it is very possible this is just a variant of the very common WAS "why do you try now? why after I have given up do you become what I wanted all along?"
I suggest you keep working on yourself, try to detach a bit more - I know it is hard with S3 involved, but do the best you can to distance from W. No more offers of dinners, no more taking care of her. Take care of you and S3, become the man you want to be. Either she will start to notice and the anger will back down, or you will just become better and move on.
Your W still shows lots of positive signs - read other threads here, you will see lots of threads that recover Ms that have these fits of fury, they are par for the course.
Thanks xalelle. I have been reading a lot of the posts on this board.
I'm trying to take your advice and detach more from her. Been doing good at it since Friday - had to call her in regards to finances. But have not initiated any contact since.
Saturday afternoon out of now where she shows up at the house - all I could think is oh great what is she going to start about now. I pretty much just shrugged her off and played with S3. Asked her what she wanted - said she was just stopping by after doctor appointment(finally took someone's advice and went after being sick for 2 weeks). Saturday was a short mountain bike ride with my best friend, one of the few people I would trust with my life. As we were talking and riding he said that it was nice to see me being more of me and having fun and being happy like i used to be. The he tells me the W contacted him. They talked, all he would tell me is that she was asking him why am I doing all this now? He only answered her saying I don't know, but I am glad that he is, that he misses all the fun that we used to have together. I asked him from that point to try to avoid any conversation about me with her when she contacts you, don't care about them talking just leave my life out of it.
Since I was going out shortly, it forced her to leave - no arguments or discussions between us. It was nice to see S3, but I just feel on edge when she is around, and really don't like her just showing up.
Sunday as I was getting myself ready to go mountain biking - something I haven't done since getting married, my cell and house phone would not stop ringing - she called each phone 2-3 times. I just ignored the calls and let them go to messaging(none left). I did call her back when I got home to make sure everything was ok - no answer - just one call and left a message.
Guess I'll see what happens next.
Well spoke to W while at work - found out what she wanted -
W wanted to know if S3 could sleep over Wednesday because on Thursday she needs to be at work extra earlier, Of course he can I told her(thinking in my head - more time for me with S3)
Then she tells me she stopped by the house again yesterday when I wasn't there. Asked her why? her reason was S3 wanted to see me, and that she needed somethings. Then she mentioned about when the last time I spoke to a girl was - it was a few days ago - why? just wondering - then she slips and says she went through the call records on the phone. Now she accuses me of having an A with this girl, this girl who I have known for about 15 years, that is the reason that I met my W - she introduced us - even though she had a crush on me. She has just been a good friend for me over time and since all of this has happened - my BF is hit or miss for being around to talk to.
She then says oh its been a few days since you spoke, is that because her H is home from marines? Tried to explain to her not at all - that he have spoken quite a bit since he has been home.
Then she went off on a rant on how can I go bike riding 15 miles a day, but not make an attempt to see S3 except every other weekend. I told her that was the arrangement the lawyers had made, and its hard enough to let him after a weekend, that it would be even harder seeing him that much more. -- Probably not the right answer - just needed an answer.
Wish I would've found a way off the phone before she started on her next bit - Why all of this now? Why are you exercising, eating vegetables, and healthy foods?
All I could say to her is because I'm trying to change to be a better person, and stay healthy.
W then said the all too common phrase - its too little too late - she used an analogy and said its was like a wilting flower - every time the flower wilted, i gave it enough water and sun light to stand up, but now I've pushed too far, and the flower is dead, and no water or light can bring it back.
W then said the all too common phrase - its too little too late - she used an analogy and said its was like a wilting flower - every time the flower wilted, i gave it enough water and sun light to stand up, but now I've pushed too far, and the flower is dead, and no water or light can bring it back.
It is so tough to hear that, but we have to remember to not believe 90% of what comes out of their mouth and 50% of their actions. They are doing/saying anything to prop up their own feelings. Don't focus on that. Validate, but don't argue with it.
Just thought I would share an example of bad DB'ing with everyone(slaps self on wrist - bad - no pursuing ) - here is an email I sent to the W after our last phone conversation
Names edited for a little bit of privacy
Not a minute in the day goes by where I don't think and pray about having you and S3 come home - nothing would bring me greater joy - but more important to me is that you and S3 are happy - I could not enjoy it if I knew that either of the two of you were unhappy. That is all that I want in life - to make the two of you happy. If I could do everything over again, i would do a lot of things different, (i said over - not change) especially the way I acted and treated you.(kinda like a mulligan in golf)
Unfortunately it took me this really horrible event to realize everything about life, and myself. I know that you say people can't change, well people can change, they have be motivated, have a a circumstance, and want something enough to bring about that change. And the change is not something that happens over night, its something that takes time, and will always require effort to continue the change. I wish I had understood more the first time you left, but I didn't, I was dumb and blind. This time around everything is clear to me - I know what I want in life, and I don't think i was ever sure of it before - I think I was just going day by day trying to get by.
I know that that I can't change the past. What I have to change is the meaning of the past. - all the mistakes and wrong turns that I made - It's everything that follows bad times that determine the meaning of those times, it's my future that determines my past, which if I don't change now, then all of this happening would be for no reason at all.
Sounds a little crazy right? I might be just that it hasn't been proven yet(but the same was said about Einstein). But I've come to the conclusion that I control my future, I determine the meaning of my past - and I'm trying to make it have some great meaning.
And the response that I got back from her :
When I left the first time that was your opportunity to fix things and keep us together. That was your second chance and you only get one “second chance”. And I voiced numerous times that we did not have a normal healthy relationship. Life should not be as hard and miserable as we were living it. And my main concern is S3. I could not and would not allow him to see his father behaving like he was towards his mother. He would most likely grow up thinking its acceptable to call women names and talk down to them. And he would also end up resenting you. I do believe people can change and I do understand it is a constant effort. But I hope you can understand that analogy I made with the plant. Once a plant dies it cannot come back to life. In order for a plant to survive it needs nurturing. All I ever needed from you was support and respect. I never felt like we were a team. I always felt like it was a struggle and everything was a battle. It’s the way I felt for a long time and yes at some times I too felt like I was going day by day trying to get by.
With every major event that happened while we were together, I hoped and prayed that maybe that change would be the one. Let me explain. I thought when we got married things would get better because you would be away from your dad who you fought with a lot. I thought we would have our own privacy and things would get better. But they didn’t. And then we got a house and I thought okay maybe he wasn’t so happy because my mothers house wasn’t our and now we can be settled. And then you were a little better but you hated Job XYZ, so I found you that job at XYZ2. And I was so happy and proud and wanted to share it with everyone and you got so mad at me…do you remember that? So you got that job, you didn’t like the hours, neither did I but the income was much better. Then I got pregnant and all you cared about was that damn game. Through the whole pregnancy, no sex, nothing for 9 months. Then we had S3. And I thought okay this has to be it. He will want to be a great father to this little boy. And you kept playing that game, missed out on pretty much his whole first year. And I was so frustrated that I left. But I told you I didn’t want it to be over. And you quit the game and we started therapy. And things did get better, for a while. But I remember going on that cruise and having a miserable time because you were unhappy. You couldn’t even poor me a glass of wine, you said it was the waiters job. Little things like that stick in my head. And you know its soo funny how you put that happy picture of us on the ferry on our way home from park online. That picture was taken before S3 peed all over you, which of course was my fault because I didn’t make him go before we left. I tried to make him go while you were out sitting finishing up your drink and bullshitting, I was inside trying to persuade a two year old to pee really fast because we had a boat to run and catch. I wish I had a picture or a video of your face and how angry you were that he had an accident on your lap. Seriously H things have not been good for a long time. But something just snapped in January. I realized that life is too short to be unhappy.
I would get up every morning, making sure your clothes were ironed and ready for you. I got S3 ready and out the door everyday. I came home every night and attempted to make dinner. I played with S3 just about every night. I would be downstairs dancing around or playing with play-doh and you’d either be upstairs on the computer or planted in front of the tv. And I’d give him a bath and read him a book. Do you remember me doing all that? I was so exhausted H. And after he went to bed I’d go down and clean up and finish up the laundry that I started at 6 in the morning. And you’d be showered and in bed already. I know this story is probably being told my a lot of other moms across the country. “I’m not appreciated, I don’t have any time to myself.” But honestly that wasn’t the whole issue. I would have done it for the rest of my life if you had been nicer. But you were so mean to me, I was trying my hardest and you still managed to put me down and hurt me. Every bad thing that happened was my fault somehow. And I was a moron and a xxxxx and xxxxx. Those words crushed my spirit and killed me inside. You think I’m just going to move on with my life, find someone new and have this wonderful life. You’re wrong H. I am so afraid of being hurt, I am so afraid of having someone around S3, that I am not interested in meeting anyone. I have put up a wall and I am very cautious and skeptical about everyone. And its sad that this is how things are, but this is the way it is and we can’t turn back time, just move forward and heal ourselves and keep that beautiful little boy of our happy because he is all that matters.
And yes I have seen and spoken to her since the email - she asked me to drop off her bike at her mother's. So I did - she thanked me and went on to then say do you know how lucky you are that you have things to do when S3 is not with you - like mountain biking, cutting the lawn, cleaning the house. She then said that she has nothing - nothing to do - no place to go to be alone - no privacy. I was left speechless - a lot of what I do in my spare time is upkeep and maintenance on the house - yes I do try and take a couple hours a day for myself to bike ride now - but i have to work my butt off to make that time now. And again I get the riot act - do you know how many times I would lie awake at night and worry about you, the way you eat and don't exercise, and now you are eating healthy and exercising.
All I could do was try to ignore her(I felt like she was testing me for a confrontation), I just tried to keep my focus on S3, to avoid any conflict or having to give any reason behind what motivates me. Told her to enjoy her dinner, gave S3 a kiss, and said that I had to go and get a few things done.
Seriously, if she doesn't understand that desire to be a better person are whats driving me - I don't know if she ever will.
Well that was interesting - the W just called while I was finishing up this post. She asked if I could come by tomorrow and look at something on her bike and make sure that its ok. Told her I would but it would be later in evening - while i was on my bike ride. She said that would be fine, and then continued to talk about S3 and her job for a little while. But anyway for me its time to go and sleep - my body is still sore and looking to rest of hard trail riding yesterday.
Goodnight to all - and thank you to everyone so far with their advice - I will post more as events unfold.
Hi LHA -
I'm not the best DBer, so take my feedback with caution. My opinion from what I read is that you're doing a pretty good job overall. There will be ups and downs and backslides.
The fact that your W is still hurt and angry and still contacts you from time to time is somewhat positive. It's also positive that she doesn't have an OM in her life.
I'm still living with my W, but she has told me that she wants to be with someone else (she actually works with OM in same dept). We basically live like roommates now, but still sleep in the same bed and give each other a kiss before going to work (basically a routine, but it's hard for me to give up the kiss before we leave). I write this because I think it is easier for someone (I could be wrong) to reconcile when there isn't an OM or OW involved.
My W said the same thing: she tried and tried and tried and now she has given up all hope -- similar to your W's flower analogy. In my situation, my W truly believes that I never had strong feelings for her as she did for me and this was the reason why she didn't feel "loved" by me. She does feel loved by the OM though.
Anyway, I just wanted to encourage you keep on trying and keep on DBing... I've learned that each situation is different and sometimes it's okay to go a little "off track" from time to time. I'm having some big problems on detaching, so I know what you're going through...
Hi LHA -
I'm not the best DBer, so take my feedback with caution. My opinion from what I read is that you're doing a pretty good job overall. There will be ups and downs and backslides.
The fact that your W is still hurt and angry and still contacts you from time to time is somewhat positive. It's also positive that she doesn't have an OM in her life.
I'm still living with my W, but she has told me that she wants to be with someone else (she actually works with OM in same dept). We basically live like roommates now, but still sleep in the same bed and give each other a kiss before going to work (basically a routine, but it's hard for me to give up the kiss before we leave). I write this because I think it is easier for someone (I could be wrong) to reconcile when there isn't an OM or OW involved.
My W said the same thing: she tried and tried and tried and now she has given up all hope -- similar to your W's flower analogy. In my situation, my W truly believes that I never had strong feelings for her as she did for me and this was the reason why she didn't feel "loved" by me. She does feel loved by the OM though.
Anyway, I just wanted to encourage you keep on trying and keep on DBing... I've learned that each situation is different and sometimes it's okay to go a little "off track" from time to time. I'm having some big problems on detaching, so I know what you're going through...
Thanks SMM - every bit of advise does help along with everything that is read here.
It seems our stiches have some similarities, I am trying to learn from my mistakes, back slides, and the advise of others(different view points are always a good thing).
I saw W again tonight - she had asked me to help with her bike to make sure she didn't break anything.
I took my usual bike ride, but made a side trip and stopped into see her. Never finished my long ride - played with son and chatted with W for too long and didn't feel like riding in darkness, so I cut it short.
W didn't break anything on bike at all - she had a nut on backwards and couldn't get it tight enough.
We actually had a good conversation about a few different things - she has telling me how she is looking for a doctor to do thermal body image scanning - she went into details - I'm not going to right now - nothing wrong with her though.
We talked about her job, and how she thinks a couple of people may be terminated due to issues with their licenses and insurance costs(one of which is OM from EA, although she denies it says she was in love with the idea of being in love with someone like him - until she saw the real him - I was there when that happened and he was an @%^$&*#@). She expressed her disinterest about having to be in early Thursday to go with owner and couple others to a training seminar.
Then when i don't expect it, she asks if I got her reply to my email - I told her I did and that I replied back to her yesterday - she said she never got it, and if I could resend it to her. I told her I would resend it, although I haven't yet, and I'm not sure that I really want to. Maybe its a sign that she never got the email.
I'm going to sleep on it and possibly write a different reply if i do choose to send it, although right now I am leaning more towards just dropping it and letting it go.
So the W has been calling me all morning - at work, cell phone - been busy and finally called her back.
She was in a really bad mood - she said her dad who rents apartment from us - has no money this month because he has to get his truck fixed. So a couple of days ago she would let him slide and be a little late with it. Today she spoke to him and was told me bought a car the summer. So she asked him about the truck, and he said it will be fixed next week. Then she asked him where he plans on parking it for the summer - he told her in the road in front of the house - she told him no. He answered her with what does it matter to you anyway you don't live there. I'll just talk to H about it. She is so annoyed with him at this point that she is ready to leave her job and go kick him out of the apartment and empty all of his things out.
Well I agree with W - no, the truck will not be parked in the road - or my driveway for that matter. He'll have to find someplace else to store it.
Now she is in a cranky mood, and I have to hear it, and then I get the we have to get everything out of the house - I just want to sell it, and get everything over with. So I told her fine, I'll start throwing everything out - no don't she tells me I'll get a POD and we can sell it, I don't want to just throw everything like the toys out. All I said to her was do whatever you feel has to be done.
Now I have to try and make it through the rest of my day with PMA - right now the only positive that I can think about is that I get to see S3 tonight.
Ughhh..So W called me while on way home from work to pick up S3 up. She told me that she no longer has to go to work early tomorrow and said that if I want that I don't have to watch S3 tonight. I told her I would like to, and said that I was going to take him to diner for dinner - offered her to join. She declined, saying that it won't help either of us, and how we are feeling bad. I told her I understand that, but I didn't know how she is feeling, and I wasn't going to assume.
She then when on to say "Do you think I'm happy with the whole situation?" Left speechless, all I could say to her was I'm sorry you feel that way, and I understand that you are unhappy.
I cut the conversation off asap by saying to her the offer still stands, if your interested, if not have a good night.
All I could think when said she was unhappy, why then are you the one that is pushing for everything to be over - can't be that unhappy.
It was a fun night just playing and watching a movie after dinner with S3. No contact from W, I wonder what I will be hit with next, wish I could read her mind.
Si its has been a few days since I posted anything. I spent the weekend with my S3, we went to a fair Saturday night, and on Sunday I took him for a bike ride to see W's uncle(we are close and already agreed to remain friends no matter what the outcome is). Ended up going back to W's uncles after bike ride, to go swimming and stayed for dinner. Overall a great weekend, until had to bring S3 to W. When S3 realized that we were on MIL's road, started crying that we doesn't want to go to nanny's or with mommy. Broke my heart, I brought him into W, and said goodbye, and told her I can't do this anymore.
She called me at home, wondering what I meant, explained to her that she said S3 will be fine, he won't understand, told her well he does, and he is hurting. Ended conversation - I just mentally couldn't do it.
Now this morning W calls me at work to help her with her computer - some stupid problem - I remote access her pc help her out done. Fast forward on to tonight, I get home go for a bike ride to help with some of the frustration/sadness. Get home eat and come online here to read some threads. W calls just as I get on. She wants to know how she can access the home computer and all the pictures on it. Ask her why - says she needs a picture. She tells me that she is looking for an old picture, and that the drive she took only goes up to February. She took the back up drive in Feb. when she left and that has all the pictures on it. Which means anything newer she has from the camera - and any pic on the computer she also has there.
I then get the same old lecture, ,which at this point, I am honestly beginning to get tired of hearing. You ruined everything, and I hate you!! I told her I'm sorry, I know that's how you feel, and I am not going to argue with you over this. Told S3 to have a good night and hung up phone.
How is it that the WAS knows just how to kick you when you are down? As if I wasn't having a hard enough day, i have to go through all this again.
Do they just try and make you feel miserable, are they miserable and think misery loves company? Or are they just trying to remind themselves of why they left?
Well that was strange - the W called me at work - out of no where - not work related at all.
She said that she just wanted to apologize for being a bitch last night on the phone(in her words - not mine). Asked her if everything was alright - she answered yes that she was just looking at old pictures and got angry/upset.
I told her that she didn't have to apologize, and she insisted that she did and was out of line - I thanked her and told her to have a great day at work.
Spoke to the W for the first time in a couple of days. I called her to see how S3 is doing. She told me that he is good, and that she signed him up for a 5 day a week camp for the summer. I had told her weeks ago that it is a good idea, and will get him away from my parents for a bit.
From that she tells me how S3 does not like going there, because of my father - I said I know - he can be mean. Then I get a I moved out to get away from the fighting and yesterday when i picked him up they started arguing in front of me. She told me about the argument, and i could here the change in tone in her voice - she was getting frustrated or angry. I didn't want to go through another tongue lashing episode from the other night that this is all your fault again.
I told her that I had to go and she got even more angry with me for wanting to get off the phone - I tried to explain to her, I can hear her frustration and instead of adding to it I think its best that we get off the phone. All she would say is fine talk to you later.
So I called the W last night - I was not having one of the best nights anyway so I figured it can't hurt to try and speak with her. We only spoke shortly - she said she was reading - wouldn't give me book name. We really didn't speak about anything other then how our days went.
She called me again this morning at work - we spoke for about 15 minutes - again she started with how my father acts and talks towards our son when she drops off/picks him up from there house daily.
She told me a story of how this morning, they brought the paper in from the mailbox, and my father asks S3 if we got it wet. No thank you or any other encouraging words - not surprising knowing my father. Then the W tells me a story of how S3 says he loves Grandma but not Grandpa - no surprise here. I told my W to just ignore it and I'll have a talk with them about it - last time I tried talking to father, it ended with me telling him to stay in Florida year round.
Hmmm.. I think she might be psychic or her ears ringing - she called again while I was typing this. Now she wants to know if its ok for her to schedule to have blood drawn - allergy testing - on S3 on a Saturday when I have him. She wanted to know if its ok with me and I'll meet W there. I agreed to it.
I've gotten a little used to the roller coaster of emotions, and I know to continue to work on me - that no matter what it will make me a better person. I know somewhere in here there are positives to her actions, I just have to look deep to see them.
Even though we don't talk about R, I just have this uneasy feeling in my gut that no matter what I change, who I become that she just doesn't care and will not want to see it.
I have to continue to work on PMA, myself, and as act as if attitude. I see that changes in me have a ripple affect on everything around me - and hope it has enough of an effect to save M.
So its been a while since I posted anything about my sitch.
I went for a bike ride on Saturday, and ran into the W on the road that I had chosen rather then my normal route. What are the odds? Yes its near her house and a common road to get use for a back road. She stopped and we talked for a while about sandals for S3 that she had bought and a party that he was going to on Sunday.
I left her a dozen roses on her car the other night - she called and thanked me said that they are pretty, and that she gave them to my mother from S3. Because she does not want her mother's cat to try to eat them.
I haven't had much communication with the W or even contact with S3. I have just been working in myself, right now finding it difficult to keep a positive attitude.
I called the W from work today, to see how both she and S3 are doing. All she would really talk about is how she wants to get a dental implant for where she is missing a tooth. I asked her if she would like to go out for dinner in honor of S3 moving up in pre-school - she said that she would rather not.
I feel that no matter what I do at this point, I am having problems finding positive signs, there has been no conversation of anything to do with us, and it feels to me as if the W just wants to pretend that I never existed.
The W and I spoke on the phone tonight for about 30 mins. I promised myself in the beginning that I wouldn't cry/beg or plead with her. I did good for the first 10 minutes if I lasted that long.
The conversation started with her asking that its is ok with me if on Saturday, I take him for his blood work and a haircut later in the day. I don't mind I see him every other weekend, and bond with him as much as I can in through couple days, but I also try to help her out so that she is not stressed - right now I think its me stressed out and not her at all - she seems to have her life under perfect control and mine's spiraling out of control.
We spoke about our relationship, and how I want her and S3 to come back home that I know he can work this out and try coaching. She said that she will not try anything, that she does not want to be married, and that she does not fell that anything can be worked out. At the same time she told me she does not want me out of her life - I tried to tell her I don't think that it would be possible - I couldn't handle that.
She said that if she did come back home and it was the slightest like it was before it would not be good - I agreed - it wouldn't be, and that is why I have been working on myself and realizing all that things I have done wrong and not willing to make those mistakes again.
All she would say is trust me one day you'll look back on this and say it was for the better - I told her I hope that its one day with her that we look back on it together.
She seems very set in her ways, although she says its not easy for her, on having the D finalized in the next few months. I asked her once again, to try coaching from here with me, instead of counseling, she was very unwilling.
I am at the point that I don;t know what to do anymore, I have now read and re-read DB about 5 times, and I am just stuck in this holding pattern.
Anybody that's ever been in a sitch or similar one I could really use some advise right about now.
First Happy Belated Father's Day to all the Dads out there.
I had a great weekend with S3, we played and hung out and I took him for a mountain bike ride through the woods, he loved it.
W stopped by unexpectedly Sunday afternoon, she brought me a fathers day gift from S3, a picture frame he made in school. She also handed me a card from him and a gift bag and card from her. I haven't opened the bag yet, but she signed the card Love - not sure if it means anything is a positive sign or no sign - I don't remember how she signs the cards to everybody else.
She said she would be back later to pick up S3, try that instead of me dropping him off since he gets upset when he realizes it. She came back when it was dark to get him, came in the house, and S3 right away says he doesn't want to go with her. She didn't even try and take him, asked if it was alright if he stayed - Yeah it's great!
As she was leaving we saw some of the neighbors and spoke with them for a brief time - after as she was getting in her car - we hugged and I wished her a good night and slipped and said I love you. I caught myself right away, and apologized. all she said was its ok.
Today I'm just a wreck - I spoke to her once this evening and she kept asking me whats wrong. I tried to tell her nothing - guess she could hear it in my voice. Said she would call later had to get S3 in shower and bed.
Lucky kid is spending next 10 days in Florida with my parents - wish I could just go and get away from everything with him.
Heard from lawyer briefly today. Said W's lawyer contacted mine, W is still looking to move forward and get divorce, and that W wants S3 to have more time with me - she now wants S3 to be with me every Friday night into Saturday. States that S3 is really upset after seeing me every other weekend.
I should no more later today - rumor was that W was a meeting with her lawyer today - and after wards both lawyers are supposed to have a phone conversation.
Guess I just have to wait and see what come of this - as for me - I'm just trying to keep myself busy and my mind preoccupied.
Haven't spoken to lawyer yet, but did have a message on machine from today, W has filed for D, and lawyer received the paperwork today, its also been just over 4 months that we have been separated.
While this does put a damper on things and is defiantly upsetting, I am still trying to keep a PMA and do the best I can to try and save the R.
Strange thing is that W has been friendly and communicating more with me for the past week - now I think I know why.
Anybody have any suggestions/ideas of what kind of steps to use after being served?
How is everyone doing?
I learned a hard lesson last night into today - be careful what I drink with prescribed meds - evidently I called W last night - only reason I know is because I see the call back from her number on caller id - don't remember the converstaion.
Worst part is that I had to go to her job today - while she was working for computer issues - stupid me wish it was an issue I could have worked on remotely. Nothing was said of the converstaion last night - i didn't intend on bringing it up - she didn't - we just acted like friends to each other and talked only about what is going on in our lives with work. The good thing was she actually tried to call me after work to talk - who knows why - I was out doing yard work and trying to pre-occupy my mind.
I'm actually afraid to know what was said last night - the past few days have been hard for me - so I'm sure somewhere along the lines I did all the wrong thing - hopefully not though.
Good Morning Everyone!!
I'm just journalizing here a little bit.
Yesterday morning I went for a group bike ride, got home after some of us grabbed a bite to eat around 12:30pm. Go to pull into the driveway, and the W is there. Even better she is in the house. First thoughts are what is she going to fight with me about with the house, too messy, dishes not done, who knows.
Go inside, pleasantly greet her - she is upstairs in our bedroom, packing up some of her clothes that she never took. We start talking, friendly at first, about her going to bar with cousin Saturday night, said she didn't really enjoy it, not her kind of thing or that she just isn't used to it, but had a good time dancing all night. Told her that's awesome, glad to hear that you had a good time dancing.
Then she turns to I can't believe you made me leave this house, you should've moved out and S3 and I should be staying here. I reminded her that when i offered that she did not want to come back to house.
That ended that topic. Next thing I get hit with is do you know how much I love this house, I wanted to have S3 grow up here, now someone else will have to grow up here. Simply told her that I know how you feel, that I also love the house, and I want the same. Only to get I ruined everything - here we go again - I re-affirmed to her that she is right that I did ruin everything and that I let jealousy get the best of me. She said things could never be the same that the trust would never be there again, and if I slipped up just once if she came home she would kill me, I could hear the distrust in her voice. I told her I don't blame her for hating me - thinking all the time to myself - hate is better then apathy - after all it is a thin line between love and hate right?
I told her I could understand that, and that is why I am trying to take care of myself, and avoid ever doing anything like that again. I took responsibility for all the issues that we had, looking back most of them were my fault anyway. Explained to her that I wished I had read a lot of the books that I have read since separating years ago, that our S3, and our family are the most important things to me. -- Don't yell at me - I know detach - I'm trying just finding it really really difficult.
I ended the conversation by saying to her, I'm not asking you to come home today, tomorrow, this week or even this month, all I am asking is the possibility of seeing/talking to a counselor together.
Left it at that, helped her carry the bags out to her car and have had no contact with her since.
Not sure where this will go from here at this point - guess I just have to wait it out and see - and continue to work on me and PMA - and trying to detach.
Ouch..
Just remembered a small part of the conversation from yesterday -
W turned around and said you know where were you in Doctors XXXXX office in December when I said that if you don't change the only thing we are going to need is D lawyers. Just an FYI doctor that referring to was a psychiatrist, that I was seeing me for depression - and W was seeing him for anxiety - caused by me. Only thing that I never understood was that while said that he could help with marriage, his answer to everything was that no matter what the W wants I always say yes(unless drugs involved), and that we should never go out anywhere as individuals, that if one goes the other must go to. W and I believed in having time to ourselves, with friends from time to time, although not often(Once a month).
Got my own 2x4 in the head.
Just realized that now - where was I when she said it, looking back I can remember even hear the words come out of her mouth. Where was I and what was I thinking when she said it, that I could totally ignore this warning.
Having a ruff day again today. Attempted to re-establish some communication with W, she has not spoken to me since she was at the house on Sunday morning.
Tried to call her at work to see how everything is going - said she was busy and that she had to go. Asked if we could talk later. Quickly she answered nope i doubt it, I have nothing to say.
I could use some suggestions/advise/2x4s, to help me out here. Its been 18 weeks since my W moved out, and even though I have been trying to GAL, and work on myself and do 180s, I feel like its gotten me no where. Every little positive step is followed my so many negatives.
Today is a better day then yesterday. I spoke to S3 last night on phone - he's been in Florida for past week with my parents - and I miss him. He's having a great time down there, he said he's been swimming, went to movies, rides around in the golf cart, and is waiting for them to take him to some farm in the area. Last night was the most that I have spoken to him since he left.
Then my mother gets on the phone and tells me that S3 was on phone with W earlier, and telling her everything like he did me, and then turned around and told her that he wants to come home to daddy's house.
In a way I feel bad that he told her that, but at the same time, there's a feeling of joy(not really the right word, but I can't think of a better one) that he said this to her. I know its wrong, but just hoping that because of what S3 says that she sees what she is doing to him and the family.
On a side note - I was correct in thinking that the W is no longer talking to me since Sunday. She will not answer or return any calls. Alright fine here - just makes keeping my life more of a mystery to her easier.
Remembering a little more of Sunday's conversation -
W had said she wants to take some of S3's toys with her this week to her mothers. Asked her why, she said because he is only here 4 days out of the month - every other weekend. Told her well that was what was agreed upon with lawyers and visitation. Looking back that was a bad answer - I got the well you know you can always call and come and get him whenever I want.
Talk about being in shock at that point - think the only reason I never did was for fear of her complaining that its not my time to see him and telling me that I can't.
Other part of this conversation was that she wants to come over during the week this week to straighten up and clean the house up. Not that its a mess - she was unhappy with the amount of toys that S3 has out in his bedroom and playroom.
OK, I will admit I could've straightened them up put them away, but that is his mess, and to be honest the mess kinda gives me a sense that he still plays there all the time.
Rest of the house is neat and clean - I guess taking care of the rest of the house and all the yard work isn't enough - she complained that I have time to go bike riding.
Looks like anything I do she will find a negative in it for something - try to follow her wishes - she finds fault, and on the other hand go against her wishes would seem like pressuring her.
I just watched Fireproof, the movie really hit home with me.
What I was wondering is if anyone thinks that I should "lend it" to my W as a way of suggestion that she watch it?
Today is now the 4th day of no contact with W. Yes I have tried to contact her, my calls just go to her voice mail. Left her a message once that if she feels like talking to give me a call back.
Couple of days ago, from upstairs window, I could picture W and S3 playing in backyard and running around swing set, it seemed so real, I almost thought they were there for a minute, it wasn't a memory of the past. This is getting ruff again now, I know what I want in my future, I only wish that I had realized all my faults earlier and had read the books that I have since read. Since I can't change the future, all I can do is pray that it all wasn't a waste and attempt to build a better today and tomorrow.
Looks like my W is going to try and get the divorce over as fast as possible, I'm going to continue to work on me, PMA, GAL, and try harder to detatch. And continue to have a fun with S3 when he is with me. Since one of her complaints last time we spoke is that I don't make more of an effort to see him, I am going to try and get him at least 1 or 2 days during the week for a few hours after work.
Hope everybody had a great 4th!
Well its been an interesting couple of days here. Yesterday since I was off for the holiday, and found out W had to work, thought I would be nice and bring her a cup of coffee and donuts for everyone she works with(this is a 180 for me). Went Ok, she was a little mad at me for doing so. I just took a deep breathe and listened to what she said. Went on my way and enjoyed the sunny day.
After she got out of work, I was at home cleaning house, getting ready for S3 to come home from vacation. Heard dog bark over vacuuming - went to door didn't see anything - turned around and W snuck up behind me - scared the s&*t out of me. She came to discuss us and what she wants - she asked me if I really think it can work out - I told her I do - and asked her to give me time to prove it. She didn't fully agreed and then brought up the lawyer - and said that she would consider putting D works on hold - but I better not slip up and be the old me.
We talked for about an hour - She told me about a party at cousins that she was already late for - told her to have fun and be careful. She initiated a hug goodnight and it was a long tight hug - one that I haven't felt from her in a long time.
That brings me to Saturday morning - me up at 7am - phone rings at 8am - W is calling - asks if I am up - yes - Is it OK if I come in? Didn't register at first until I heard the knock at the door. She partied with cousin till about 3 - passed out and then came here. She wanted to help clean up S3 toys and put some away before he came back today. We talked during the day - she told me she wants things to work out, but is also scared - I can understand that - she asked me what has caused the change in me all of a sudden - had fun explaining to her that I am fighting for her and to keep our family together, and finding out who I am at the same time. She said to me will you dance at cousins wedding in October with me(i never dance - told her I will and I will as part of my 180s). We talked about what each of us had been doing since separating - she told me about a date she went on - and that she really wasn't interested in the guy after spending time with him - although she did say they do talk daily. I told her I started riding mountain bike again - and she asked who the bike that i was riding belonged to - orginally told her a friend to avoid conflict over buying a new bike - admitted to her it is mine and the price of it - I could see a bit of relief in her face - like she was hoping or thinking i would continue to cover it up.
She then told me to plan a short getaway - similar to retroville or a couples thing if I was serious about M and working things out. Boy was I shocked considering I had already looked into it for if/when the time may be right. I told her the only way that we can work this out is if nothing from the past is ever brought up no matter what, and that she can talk to other guys like the one she went out with - but not on a daily basis. She agreed.
When it was getting time to pick up S3 from airport, she asked what I was doing for dinner - I wasn't sure at this point. She took out some steaks, and said she would run up to store and get some veggies(her choice (I'm not a veggie person - but since all of this I try everything(180) also helping me get in shape) to go with them and we will have a barbecue. Ok now I started stressing a little - 4+ months no really interaction and now she wants to have dinner and go watch fireworks after. All I could do is keep PMA and act as if nothing was uncomfortable about the situation. She even wanted to go for ice cream afterward, she dropped S3 and I off at home - no contact just a good night - told her to call so I know she got home safe.
She did and said she would talk to me in the morning. I'm actually looking forward to the morning to see what she says.
Oh and just so you know - I have been using a bit of the DB'ing techniques, but at the same time I am also trying The Love Dare. The movie really had a large impression on me - a lot of similarities with my stitch, figured I can;t get any worse off the where I am.
Wow. I really hope that you can stick with your 180's. Jealousy is a terrible thing. To feel like you have to defend your virtue is a really nasty feeling for a woman to have. It destroyed one of my favorite relationships. I hated feeling like I wasnt trusted. I started to change my behavior because the awful fight and constant phone calls werent worth the evening of fun that I would have with my friends. I really hated how I let his inability to trust change me. I definately think that you should seek help for this if its still a problem for you.
I really think that you need to move slowly, and dont recommend fireproof to her, maybe have it around, and if she asks about it tell her, but I think that you trying to get her to see it would put pressure on her, not what you want to do right now. I would work on re establishing friendship, not repeating old behaviors that you know dont work.
If she pulls away now, dont pursue her. If she doesnt answer the phone leave a message and wait... and wait some more if you have to. Keep things business like and be positive, make positive changes for yourself, and wait for her to notice.
I would recommend going over to peicing and see if you can garner some advice from there.
Bluerain. I'm in A-town. Should meet up if you're there.
Orangedog, Thats funny! I am down near Homer. I have been up there about once a week for the last 2 months, long drive! I was trying to find a job up there, hasnt worked out yet!
Wow. I really hope that you can stick with your 180's. Jealousy is a terrible thing. To feel like you have to defend your virtue is a really nasty feeling for a woman to have. It destroyed one of my favorite relationships. I hated feeling like I wasnt trusted. I started to change my behavior because the awful fight and constant phone calls werent worth the evening of fun that I would have with my friends. I really hated how I let his inability to trust change me. I definately think that you should seek help for this if its still a problem for you.
I really think that you need to move slowly, and dont recommend fireproof to her, maybe have it around, and if she asks about it tell her, but I think that you trying to get her to see it would put pressure on her, not what you want to do right now. I would work on re establishing friendship, not repeating old behaviors that you know dont work.
If she pulls away now, dont pursue her. If she doesnt answer the phone leave a message and wait... and wait some more if you have to. Keep things business like and be positive, make positive changes for yourself, and wait for her to notice.
I would recommend going over to peicing and see if you can garner some advice from there.
Thanks for the advise Bluerain. Yes the jealousy is the hardest thing that I am coping with at this point - I'm working on it with using a lot of patience - thinking about every word before I say it and the effects that it will have.
I didn't suggest she watch the movie, but the case was laying out - she picked it up and looked at it briefly, didn't say anything.
Sunday, we spoke briefly about what each of us did for the day. This morning I sent her some balloons to her job to let her know that I was thinking about her. She called me at work, thanked me, and said that I am really confusing her. Not want I want to do - she also said she wants to know why I am doing everything I am doing - couldn't answer her just thought to myself that I finally realized to stop fighting with her and fighting for her
She also mentioned that I was still wearing my wedding ring - I could hear a happy tone in her voice - almost like she was glad that I haven't taking it off the last 4-5 months.
When she called at work today she brought up the issue of possibly Retrouvaille, before the end of the month. She asked me too look deeper into it and make arrangements. Told her that I would and have a great day at work, and I would talk to her whenever. She also said to me are you sure that we can work this out, and be together - I reaffirmed her that I know we can, and she said are you going to go out and have fun and dance with me - I told her that yes I will(not something I ever did before) - one of my 180s that I promised to myself is that given the chance I will take her out and dance - no matter how foolish I look - what do I care what others think - I have a great woman with me.
It seems like this may be a ruff part of a roller coaster ride coming up, I have a feeling that it will be a minute by minute conversation depending on what kind of moods she goes through. I'm almost scared of the way that I think things may flip-flop in her mind and me not catching it faster enough to realize the mood changed.
I am still keeping my PMA, working on myself and doing my 180s(she was actually impressed that i was getting back in shape and even lifted my shirt to see the shrinking beer belly).
No contact with W on Monday - tried to call last night to see how S3 liked camp - got voice mail - mailbox full - unable to leave a message - that's ok she would still know I called from caller ID.
She sent me an email today - suggestion a anger management group in the city - starts in 2 days - and she also included in the email a "Couple Enrichment One-Day Retreat: Become More Connected and Re-Ignite Your Love" with the same company that is in a week and a half.
Called them - Unfortunately its too late to join the group anger management (yes i do/did have an anger problem that I have been working on with IC) But I could get a one-on-one session to do the course which I am seriously thinking about joining - just waiting for receptionist to get back to me with counselor schedule.
W said she would let me know later if she wants me to sign us up for the couples on. I'm not going to pressure her - since it was her suggestion - I'm hoping that she still wants to do it.
Just going to give her time and space - nothing more has been said by her about putting the D paperwork on hold with her lawyer since the weekend. Time and patience, and I'll wait and see what happens.
There's been little communication between the W and I since the weekend. Talk about being confused at this point. Over the weekend the W and I were talking about working on us, discussing making changes around the house, and even refinancing the house to a lower rate. She had even mentioned talking to her L to put the D process on hold. Now it seems like she doesn't want anything to happen.
She did say that she needs to see changes in me - suggested to me yesterday joining an anger management group - so I start Thursday, and have to do 4 hours of make up classes over the weekend with counselor to catch up to the group. Yes I do/did have an anger issue - I have been working on it in IC over the past few months.
I haven't planned the trip that she asked me to yet, although I did look into her suggestion of Ocean City, MD. It looks like it will be a lot of fun.
The only reason that I am hesitating on planning the weekend getaway is because I do not know if she put the D works on hold.
I'm also going to try and start seeing my S3 more - going to try and spend some week nights with him for dinner.
I asked the W out on a dinner date - she said she would think about it - I have to reschedule on her since I asked her for tomorrow and that's when I start group therapy.
I guess what I really could use some advise on right now, is do I ask her what is happening with the D, if she put it on hold or if she is still pushing it forward??
I don't want to pressure her, and at the same time I don't want to backslide. I feel like I have made baby steps in out stitch and would like to continue moving in the right direction.
Spoke to W after work for a about 15-20 mins on phone. Asked her what was going on with D - her answer was she did put it on hold with her lawyer - but it does not mean anything.
I got the usual blame everything on me - and that it is too little too late - answered better late then never. She said she didn't know if she would be able to get over the past - I understood her there - told her that I was not looking for the old R and M that we had that I wanted a great one between us. Then she asked me why all of a sudden am I coming around - told her I was hit in the head by a few 2x4s - she took a few minutes to get it, and that I finally realized that I should stop fighting with her and start to fight for her.
Reminded her that dinner possibly for Thursday was no good - that I was going to start the anger management sessions and asked about maybe Friday night date? She answered I don't know - I'll see maybe if i can find someone to watch S3. Offered to help find sitter - she declined saying that she doesn't want anyone knowing that we are going out or talking. One of the things she said to me over the weekend is that if we do work this out that we can't listen to any of our friends/family about any comments that they make about it.
She just said that she doesn't know if she will be able to get over the past. She asked me what would I do if she told me she kissed some one? I calmly told her there's nothing that I can do. I don't know if she was testing me, or trying to get me angry or just be open and honest with me.
All I could think is what changed between the weekend and today? Now I feel like I am back at square one.
The conversation ended there -
Just jounralizing a little more - feedback/comments always welcomed
Last night I started with anger management group therapy. W knew I joined - she actually called me before and wished me luck. Thanked her. We spoke after wards, and she was asking me how I liked it, and what I thought about it. It was excellent, very helpful.
This morning, I brought her mini roses, that I had grown in the yard to her job, along with a card, coffee and bagels for everyone that she works with.
I checked with the owner before bringing them in. It was earlier then her usual start time - she wasn't supposed to be there, but she went in earlier today - so much for a surprise. I left the bagels with the guys at the front counter, brought her the rest.
She just acknowledge me by saying that I have to stop doing this to her. I didn't question it, I could tell that she is confused and trying to sort through everything.
The changes that I have made in me and my general attitude about everything, are definitely making me feel better about my self and like I am moving in a positive direction.
I am looking for little signs or baby steps that might indicate that the W may still want our R and M. Its the little things like her calling to wish me luck before therapy that are keep my hope going.
The last time that my W and I spent some time together and talking was a week ago. Since then there has been a little email communication between us. I called her today about the marriage retreat that she suggested for next Saturday for us. I called to find out if she wanted me to sign us up for it since they called me back about it. I had to ask her first since she was going to try and swap the work day with some one else. Well its a no go - she couldn't find anyone to work for her.
Now here's my dilemma - one of the other things she mentioned was for me to book a weekend away in the next couple of weeks. Just the two of us. With us having so little communication at this point would it be a good idea to book it. I spoke to her boss today in the event that I do book it, and we will let her have off the Friday and Monday for the weekend.
I feel like I'm in a bind here - if i book it - she tells me I'm insane that she's not going, or if I don't book it then I get you couldn't even do one of the things that I suggested.
I could use some feedback hear on this. Thanks everyone.
Spent a little bit of time on the phone last night with W. Confirmed my thoughts that everything she had said about our M and R the end of the last week a mistake on her part. She said that she was feeling over emotional and slipped up.
She told me we can never be back together, because of all the hurt and she can't get past it. Then she told me it doesn't matter how long i wait, how much I change, she just won't move past it. She already in the past told me that she will not see a C for help to get past it.
I asked her about what she had said about a weekend getaway - told me to forget it, the only way she would consider it is if it was something like a Retrouvaille, she said it might help improve the conversation between us.
What conversation I asked her? She doesn't return any calls or call me.
I then tried to talk to her about seeing my S3 more often, and she said why? I told her I want to be a part of his life and spend as much time with him as I can. No answer. And yes I was getting emotional and trying my best to hide it in my voice - I think she knew though.
She ended the talk by saying that she has to go. That this is not as easy for her as I think it is. And that once you make a decision you have to stick to it. I told her that people change there mind all the time and to have a good night.
W returned my call last night in regards to seeing S3 tonight and spending tomorrow with him. She agreed that it would be OK for him to sleep over and get some extra time with me rather then just tomorrow.
I could here something different in her voice - almost like she was crying or sad - very low soft spoken - I asked her if something was wrong or if she didn't feel good and all she would say is nothing.
Then she tells me she thinks its best that we don't talk at all anymore. Asked her why - she said she had spent the day with her aunt and uncle(someone that I though I could trust as a friend and speak with - guess not) she said that he told her that he feels that she shouldn't speak to me anymore. And to think he promised to me that he would not discuss the W and I with her.
She said that she wants to move on She said last Friday and Saturday that she was just over emotional, and that she felt no love for me at all when she was there that day. I told her I understand that. And again she pressed the issue why am I trying now all instead of in the past when she had wanted me to try. Told her I was just stupid and didn't see things as bad as they where, that it took her leaving for me to realize it.
I'm going to keep doing what I can and work on my changes, pray, and be the best father I can be for S3 and wait and see what happens.
Journalizing
Had a great day with S3 - spent the day at W's uncles house working on him learning how to swim. Of course W called to see how he was. Later in the afternoon W called to see how he would be when she came to pick him up from home. Told her that at noon already he was saying that he wanted to stay at home and not go sleep at Nana's with mommy. Got a brief lecture - I knew this would happen - that's why I wanted him to sleep over tonight and not last night so that it would be only one night and I would get him from your parents after work. Apologized to her my mistake - thinking not worth the fighting - you're the one that wants me to have him more often - better to just let her win.
We spoke at bed time on the phone, for about 10 minutes - a long time for us lately - spoke about how each others day was, and what we did - her at work and me with S3.
Wished her a good night/sweet dreams, and a great day at work - she wished me the same.
Life is ironic - as I am typing this in she called me up at work - we talked for about 10 minutes - mainly about finances and the mortage payment scheduling - about my friend staying with me at the house until his job transfer goes through at the end of the month. Got questioned about him using the computer and everything else at the house. She mentioned it because she saw him on facebook last few nights - I made the mistake of assuming that she gets to spend alot of time on facebook - tone in her voice changed - and she said oh and you don't? Apologized and said no not really - just occasionally - she said well then don't assume.
She told me she would call me later - At this point I think when I speak with her later I am going to bring up Retrouvaille again, to see where she stands about me signing us up for it, if she is still willing to participate.
Looks like the ride on the roller coaster is going to get interesting in the next couple of weeks. Today about an hour after my earlier post, I was lucky enough to be one of the few to be let go/laid off from by employer.
I immediately spoke to W - after all we do still have mortgage and bills together. To my surprise she was amazingly supportive, and told me to just come down and take my time to look for new job. Its not like her to be like that, normally she would be you have to hurry and find a new one, but this time the 2 of us seem to be playing opposite rolls. She even suggested that I spend more time with S3 while looking - already told her that I planned to.
Talk about being on the rainy side of life - when it rains on me it seems to pour. Even with this minor set back, I am still going to work on saving my R and M and having my W come home. In a way, I sort of hope that this helps the two of us come closer together - I know its a bad thought - but God and fate has its own plans for us, I'm hoping that this involves the 2 of us being together again.
And so the fun begins - been out of work for 2 1/2 days now - haven't really looked too much for a job - Think its still setting in - plus I decided to use some of the time to bond with S3 and work on his swimming - and my tan
She dropped him off at home this morning around 8am - I made her a cup of coffee and her favorite bagel(onion with butter - nothing fancy). She took it with her to go - she was running late. It felt really good to do something for her instead of myself for a change - best part was I didn't want a thank you or acknowledgment of it - was just happy that she accepted it. On another counter was the literature from Retrouvaille, she picked it up and read through it, but never made any comments about it, guess it could be a positive sign that she didn't throw it out or even say forget it - maybe one day soon we will have a conversation between us where I can bring it up and possibly get her to go.
I know that my W has access to my email account - I never changed password - nothing to hide - unlike her changing her immediately. But she did call and ask if she had my approval to send out resumes on my behalf. No problem, nothing in there go ahead and log in. This was yesterday. Today started my weekend early with S3, she called me in the middle of the afternoon, asked if I had emailed out any jobs, and what I was doing. Told her in her uncles pool with S3, got a quick snappy reply - It must be nice. Not getting defensive in tone I just said, not really the time with him is great, but I would prefer to be working to know that money was coming in to continue paying bills. The call dropped or she hung up not sure.
She did call back later, and said that the circus is in area this weekend. I told her I was aware of that, and she said she had free passes to get in, that she would drop off at house after work. OK thanks. Got home and she was parked outside as if waiting for me to pull up. Now my/our friend is staying at house until his job transfer from NY to Vegas completes. She wouldn't even go in and say hi to him.
She gave me the tickets, I asked her if she wanted to go - got a sarcastic No. Asked her what she had planned for the night - nothing - wished her a good night as she drove off.
Missed a couple of calls from her while waiting on line for circus - called her back - she said Oh I just wanted to make sure that you would be able to get in. Yes, we are at front of the line and its starting to get long - she said enjoy the show and I'll talk to you later. I called her after the show - we started having a good conversation about each others nights and as luck would have it - her cell battery dies - and her charger is at work - great - hopefully we can pick up the conversation where he left off in a good mood after she charges her phone.
At this point in the conversations we have had, I'm not sure of what she wants from us if anything. The few times that it has been brought up she is still looking to get divorce - and she has put the movements on hold with her lawyer, not believing that I can change, but every conversation between us now is usually her trying to make me angry(which doesn't work) or her bringing up the past and not being able to let it go/move past it/ forget about it. I totally understand that - which is the reason for me changing - changing to be the person that I would want somebody to love me for - not the selfish !@#@$@%% that I was. Hopefully someday she will want to rescind the motion and continue to work on us.
Right now I'm am just going to back off a little on job hunting - did get a severance, and focus more on time with S3, myself , and my friend staying has been begging me to do the drive to Vegas with him and stay at his place for a week. I am considering it, but also weighing out the advantages/disadvantages it may have on my R and M with W, Vegas was someplace that she and I had always spoke about to together.
Hang in there! Im knew to this too but from what ive seen some friends go through and other threads in here this can be a very long ride for you with as you know no way of knowing the end result. (ive seen several friends make it through though)
At least she sounds like she is fighting wanting to come back. (which in my book is agood sighn) shows she wants to be with you but just is not sure yet.. If I can look at your postings from a thirdparty (again Im doing no better prob worse but the things my wife is going through seems a bit differant) you really seem to be doing every little things she asks for.
she says jump your not even asking how high you just jump. it seems like your changes are getting a responce but I belive you might want to try slightly differant things.. when she gets upset that you call her maybe STOP! I know its hard but Ive done it and my wife calls or texts in someway everyday.. she has to see that you GAL jumping when she says jump is just showing her you are there waiting and ready like a little puppy dog.
now as far as the kiss.. or any past talk... you can try and give this a shot (at your own risk) you can suggest "That is the past and this is now" I think it has to show you have moved on from the bad things that happened and this is the new you who has a understanding and a LIFE
well again take what I say as only suggestions. nothing more than something to think about
Thank You WL2009 -
I never looked at it like "a little puppy dog". I thought I was doing OK at GAL. Been hanging out with some of my old friends, going out. Taking S3 out when he is with me and playing with him, really starting to swim excellent.
I've been convinced(flying home at his expense) by my friend to go to Vegas with him for almost 2 weeks, leaving in 2 days - should be a fun time - and maybe just what I need right now.
I'm going to do my best not to contact her at all while I am away.
I never thought about it from the point of view that she is fighting to come back as a good sign, about her being unsure of herself. I feel like I miss out on little signs like that - really need to learn how to see without tunnel vision.
like i said though just thoughts... my stich just gets worse so take what I say as you want. I guess at least i have all my kids now. its too bad she is getting worse
Sorry to to hear that your sitch keeps getting worse, as does mine. My prayers are with you.
I'm at a point now where the W won't talk to me, won't read my emails - not even any contact about S3. In her mind she just wants a D and acts like I don't exist, amazing how over a weekend things changed between her saying she is willing to try, and looking up marriage therapy to not speaking to me. Makes me wonder if there is an outside influence guiding her with what to do.
All I have been able to do now is act as if, and focus more on GAL and focus on S3.
I spent the day with S3 today - he was supposed to be with my parents and they dropped him off with me. First thing he said to me was "Am I sleeping here daddy?" Broke my heart. It was so hard to tell him not tonight. Had a great time with him anyway. When Grandma came to get him, he didn't want to go. He cried to stay saying that he didn't want to go with her and see mommy. Brought tears to my eyes. I feel so bad for him, he wants to be with me all the time. He's funny - he tells me he is trying to come back home and live with me, ask hum if its just going to be me and him and he says no mommy too. That he is working on it. I would never imagined a 3 year old be as smart as he is and noticing every little thing that her does.
Had to tell him today that he won't see me for 2 weeks, he asked why - told him I was going away - he said he wanted to come or I can't go. Told him I'll be back before he knows it, and he said he is going to run to vegas to be with me. I have a feeling that the next 2 weeks without seeing him are going to be really hard.
Hi LHA, I think its pretty normal for them to vacillate. My H told me 2 months ago that he wanted to try, things went great for about three weeks and he dropped off the face of the earth for a few weeks, later he told me he had been having doubts. Hes just starting to contact me again over the last little bit.
I hope that you can have a great time on your vacation. I think it will be good for you, definately GALing in a big way! I hope that you can be in the present and enjoy yourself. Get some great souveniers for S3!
interseting, and now I know a new word
I also learned a new word. Thanks for the encouragement everyone. My friend and I just got to Las Vegas today. I didn;t realize how far of a drive it was from NY to here. Thank goodness I'm flying home.
Right after leaving at the end of last week towards the end of first night of driving, my parents call and say W wants to go to the house to take care of dog and bird. They told her that its alright they will take care of them and watch the house - 1 of them is sleeping there nightly.
The ride across the country so far was hard to keep my mind off W. Second night on road, I made the mistake of calling to talk to S3 - forgot about hour difference and got crucified for calling so late and upsetting S3. Then got told to fly home day after getting to vegas to get on with our D. Just tried to calm W down and talk like a rational person - didn't work. Tried asking her why she wanted to watch the pets all of a sudden - only answer she would give me is I don't think its fair to your parents - I told her they don't mind. She left off by telling me not to talk to her ever again - OK bye.
Next day alarm monitor calls - house alarm set off - had police dispatched and sent parents over to see what was going on. W tried to get into house - hhmmm... I wonder why the alarm and pass word were changed before leaving. Well she didn't get to take anything - although I can't legally keep her out of the house it did deter her for now. My parents told her if she needs anything they will be happy to come over and let her in.
Should be interesting to see what awaits for me when I return home - especially since I will be gone for a week longer then what the W knows about. After all its time that I do things and see things that I've always wanted to do - and now I'm doing them for me. Sounds selfish to me - maybe - but you know what I think I need some real time for me at this point in time.
stopped in to see how things were going... mine got better slightly then got much worse again
Sorry to hear that WL2009
Everything was great while I was away - except for alarm incident - no contact with wife - i was in a good mood all the time also.
Not even being home for 2 days - everything starts off where it left off - spent Friday catching up pn house chores - Saturday with S3 for a little while - W said she will get him at 1pm on her way home from work - K no plans just played outside with him. 1pm comes and goes - no sign/call. 2PM call W - i'll be there in 30 mins - Ok - would've been nice to know - I could've taking him out for day then. She gets there in 5 minutes - S3 and I outside on porch - trying to avoid her coming in house - turns car off and right into the house - and from there just drives me insane.
Told her that she makes me so angry now, and I feel sick when she is around. She says hello to dog and bird and leaves. Comes back 2 mins later - accuses me of taking her cell phone - told her i don't have it - you're lying - told her maybe you left it home - try calling the number - no ring in or out of house.
about 30 mins later - she calls me from her cell - i don't answer - she leaves a voice mail apoligizing for accusing me, and that she is sorry that she makes me feel the way I do. I never called her back.
Now today she calls me at 5:30 pm - can i drop S3 off there in morning and you bring him to school - sure - if its easier I'll come and pick him up in morning. No I'll drop him off - fine. Did you get my message yesterday? Yes - trying not to let her push my buttons - she continues to try and bring up things what did you do last night and today - as if I'm going to tell her anyway. Then she's back on the subject asking if I still hate her? just let out a deep breathe - thought to myself... I don't - never will..
Said to her anything else? no - alright have a great night - hung up phone -
the morning should prove interesting when she drops S3 off now.
well i guess at least she is showing interest..very glad you are holding you stand! thats the hard part for me. they do the are you mad? ect then you give in after some nice talk..
mine started really pulling my strings how she missed me big hug where she would not let go then bam! 180 back to how we wont work cant ect.. im a ass and so on.. so i broke off contact again and its only been a few days. I plan to stick it out this time. she needs a wake up call and i think me as a friend just wont work. not now at least. I want to see how long i can go with this... i know i will be on these boards for support
You are in my prayers WL2009 - I wish you the best of luck and everyone else who finds themselves in these situations.
Yesterday was what would've been our 8th wedding anniversary - I have been in a funky mood days prior to coming up on it. Decided that even though we have not been living together for 6 months now that I was going to give her a card - but not directly.
Bought an anniversary card - one that I found very fitting for my feelings - since I have been spending everyday with S3 since being unemployed (loving the bonding between us), I decided the best way to give it to her was in her back pack without saying anything to her. Got read the riot act by her for trying to teach him to swim in aunt's pool without his life vest - just shrugged it off, telling her I was right there the whole time, then S3 brings up went in the ocean with me a couple of days ago - more life vest issues - just re-assured the W that I had him, and was holding him and teaching him how to use the waves. Where the life guards - yes - and I have more confidence in myself then I do the guards. How badly that I wanted to ask her how is it ok for S3 to go skinny dipping in pool with cousin F7? I just let it go, didn't have the fight in me. Leaned in window to give s3 kiss bye - W says how bad she would like to drive right now and run me over - that's how you feel then do it. Not worth spending life in jail.
So today when she comes by S3 and I are setting up a tent in back yard, he wants to sleep out in it. She helps set up the tent - voluntarily - guess it was pretty bad that i couldn't remember how it went. So in the middle of setting it up, she says I got your card - I totally forgot about it, and answered what card.. brief silence.. oh that card - Couldn't get a reading on her about it - couldn't see her facial expression - I guess the fact that she acknowledge it is possibly good, or she'll just find a way to use it against me later in court. Nothing else said about it, she continued to help me set up the tent and then said maybe S3 can sleep over tomorrow night and stay in it - that's a surprise to me, after all it's not my time with him. When S3 was in car W shows me that she found 3 jobs that she wants to send my resume to and asked if it would be OK. Told her whatever you feel is best.
Wished her a good night - It's so hard knowing that I want our R and M to work out, and knowing that she has been on dates with other guys and just doesn't care - or so she acts. Because she constantly reminds me that this is not easy for her and that I have no idea what she is going through. I wish I did.. I wish she would talk to me and let me know what is happening in her life - maybe then a friendship can start to rebuild everything slowly between us.
Sorry if I rambled at all - been having problems with thoughts and emotions the past few days.
so how are things now? just curious mine is changing all the time up/dn dn/up i think sideways too
Hey WL2009....
I hope and pray that things are getting better for you...
Not much has changed here in my situation.. Hardly have any communication now with W. Only time we exchange any words is drop off or pick up of S3. Doesn't seem like the R/M is going to be saved - I've had to go out and retain a lawyer for the D proceedings that she started. As much as I want to save my M, I feel that my W is done with this portion of her life and moved on. All I can do now is keep a PMA, pray and continue to be me. I have been trying to go out as much as p[possible and have fun, and it can be difficult on somedays, but i still try.
I hope that everything is going better for you.