1st thread 2nd thread Ok, last thread locked up. I feel like I may be spending too much time on here but it seems to be one of the few things I am getting comfort from. Not too bad of a day considering my wife has not called and said she wants to come home.
I went and saw my parents for a few hours. My mom kept trying to ram advice down my throat. I politely thanked her and asked that she relax a little bit as I was uptight enough as is. Don't think it helped but hey, I'm trying to stand up for myself. No emails and no phone calls from the wife. It does feel a little better when you don't have to see them or talk to them, I guess. I mean if this is what's going to happen, then I guess that's the best way, right? I did think about her a lot today. I know she has a lot of faults but hey so do I. The thought of having to learn someone else is absolutely frightening. I am still hoping for a miracle. Wondering if I should ignore her if she calls today. I want her to miss me but I don't want her to get used to the idea and look elsewhere if she has not already. I tried what everyone suggested and listened to a little harder music today and read a little bit of Anxious to Please. Wow, it describes me almost perfectly. It's gonna be tough to transition from this but I will give it my all. I honestly think if I had not been this way, then the wife and I never would have been married??? Purely speculation on my part but the wife is pretty reactionary and assertive so I may be right.
Wondering when I'm going to start enjoying the simple things again...
Have you switched music yet?
Yep, I stayed away from mushy, slow stuff today and listened to mostly rock and lastest pop stuff. Helped a little but in case you haven't noticed it seems like 98% of songs are about love. So while I have XM radio, I still had to switch stations quite a bit.
2) Most wayward spouses -- and nearly ALL wayward women -- have an enabling friend, usually a girlfriend, and maybe more than one that they surround themselves with. Has she cut off or pulled back on her usual relationships with friends and family, and gravitated toward a new small circle like this?
Found this posted by Puppy in someone else's thread. This is my wife--she has a friend that just recently got divorced and according to my wife HATES MEN! She works with her and I have noticed that during the week, my wife is more cold towards me, probably due to the support of this woman. My wife has told me that this woman is looking for a job out of state though. So, if she does and I hope she does quickly, maybe my wife will lose her support system. That would be nice. She also has cut off from her family and my family. She used to call her mom everyday and now maybe 2x a month if that. She has a small group of work friends that she hangs out with. She asked me the other day about our next door neighbors. Apparently, the wife had told my wife that she was considering divorcing her husband. The wife confirmed this with me and said that my wife also had said this, that she wanted to leave me. So, it looks like she tasted the kool-aid and liked it. Only thing, my next door neighbor claims she was just frustrated that day and just venting. She was astonished to learn that my wife not only left me but left my D13 as well. She said she doesn't understand the behavior. My wife asked me the other day if they were staying together as they are moving--I said yes, they are moving together. She kinda shrugged and said I guess they must have worked it out. Now I'm not saying that my next door neighbor had anything to do or any influence on my wife's decision but hey you never know. So to all you people out there, be careful what you say and who you say it to, cause you never know.
If only I can remain dark or unavailable without causing the wife to be reactionary she will miss what she has here and attempt to make her way home. Unfortunately for me, my wife's actions are based on from my perspective emotion and not logic. Any thoughts and or suggestions? How many days do you ignore phone calls if there is no message left?
I feel like I may be spending too much time on here but it seems to be one of the few things I am getting comfort from.
Right now it's hard on you, so use whatever support you can to get by. Don't feel bad about being here a lot, the time will come when you are ready to move on.
I am still here and I have no regrets. It helps me focus on keeping up my changes. There are much worse websites to waste time on, that's for sure.
Ok, the wife just called. I let it ring three times and decided to answer. I said hello as pleasantly as possible and asked her what's up? She said I was just calling to see if you're doing ok. I said of course, why wouldn't I be? She said did you have another counseling session today? nope, I said. Are you sure you're doing ok? Yes, why do you ask? I don't know I just wanted to make sure. Ok, I said. I asked, are you ok? She said great. She said well, I thought we were fighting. I said I wasn't aware that we were. She said ok, awesome. I said sounds good, I'll tell D13 that you called, have a good night.
I tried my best to have a PMA. She was confused I think but relieved. Now, this does one of two things: It gets her thinking as to whats going on with me--which I'm hoping(matter of fact I hope she thinks about it for hours) or worse, she is relieved that I'm making things easier talking to her and she can walk away with little guilt like she did me a favor or something.
Talked with a friend who I used to work with(one of those friends she says I didn't have)tonight for about 30 min and he told me that the new stimulus packages has flooded the government sector w/ jobs.
He told me there are quite a few that I would qualify for in Virginia. Hmmmmmm. It takes about 4-6 months to hear something back on these jobs, so I think I found something to do tomorrow at work. He pointed it out to me this way as well. He said, John, if your marriage works out then no big deal, if you get offered a job, you don't have to take it and if your marriage doesn't work out, you get to move, retire from the AF, be away from your ex-wife who you are obviously not comfortable seeing and as a bonus there are a ton of single, beautiful women in VA. Hmmmmmm, the man makes some good arguements.
We also discussed physicology and the art of attracting women and how it all ties in with DB. We are also going to lunch tomorrow. Good conversation.
Ok, I feel a little better. Things could be worse. I have my D13, the house w/ swimming pool, cool car and she took all the bills. I'm trying to stay positive here as hard as it is.
Had a good conversation w/ my D13 too. She was getting pissed about her friends saying stupid stuff. I suggested that she agree with them about whatever they were saying. She said but I don't agree. All the stuff they were talking about was things that didn't really matter like boys, classes being hard, makeup, etc. So I said, look how stressed out you are about stupid stuff. She said yeah, I guess. I said I want you to try something tomorrow. If its stuff like this, agree with everything your friends say. If they say a boy is cute and they want to go talk to him, agree with her and tell her she should go talk to him. If a friend says a class is easy, tell them you agree even if you don't agree. She said what does all this accomplish. I told her it will make her friends easier to tolerate for one because they won't want to argue with her because they know she will always agree. Additionally, if the subject is superficial anyways, my D13 won't have the stress of having to defend her position and she will be less stressed also. My D13 just smiled away and said let's practice, this is going to be fun messing with peoples heads. LOL!!!
AF,
Good job on your daughter, btw. This is a great opportunity to teach her about VALIDATION; about agreeing with someone's FEELINGS, but not necessarily agreeing with their POSITION. For example, she can say "Yeah, I can see how you could see it that way." or "I understand how you feel." She may appreciate the distinction. I just had this convo with my D19, and it was really good.
You are correct, the tone you take around your wife right now, and what you say is a REAL tough dance, for the reasons you state:
I tried my best to have a PMA. She was confused I think but relieved. Now, this does one of two things: It gets her thinking as to whats going on with me--which I'm hoping(matter of fact I hope she thinks about it for hours) or worse, she is relieved that I'm making things easier talking to her and she can walk away with little guilt like she did me a favor or something.
I think you handled it well. One thing you might say in the future is something like "Oh, I'm pretty good actually (sounding upbeat). I still don't agree with a damned thing that's going on, but I'm doing surprisingly well."
or
"I'm pretty good, thanks. (sounding upbeat, but not annoyingly so). Don't get me wrong, I haven't changed my mind about one thing I got upset with you about the other night, but I've come to some realizations about this, and I'm hanging in there."
If she presses you for what your "realizations" are, say something like "Oh, we'll talk about it someday, but now's not the time. I hate to cut you off, but I need to go ________ (fill in GAL activity). Talk to you later!"
The thing is, wayward spouses desperately want to normalize their adulterous relationships, and they need to know that their loved ones -- esp. their spouses -- are "okay" with things. The trick is to let them know that YOU are going to be okay, but that you're NOT okay with what they're DOING.
Does that make any sense?
Puppy
Okay.
So when she (your daughter) becomes ten times more agreeable with you...
be aware you're being played.
Gotcha. But you did good with the W. Let her sit there and wonder WTH is going on. lmao.
Melissa
^ what Puppy said.
Melissa
I think you handled it well. One thing you might say in the future is something like "Oh, I'm pretty good actually (sounding upbeat). I still don't agree with a damned thing that's going on, but I'm doing surprisingly well."
Thanks very much, Puppy! I like this statement above. I wasn't exactly sure how to convey this but I will the next opportunity I get. Good tip.
And I understand perfectly now. I didn't before though as I was confused about being ok when you actually aren't. I see the distinction now and honestly can't wait to use it.
Should I call her? Just kidding...:)
Mel,
Very nice! The thing is that with my wife here I didn't actually do what I wanted to do anyway, so now when my D13 agrees with me I will love it even if she doesn't agree cause my wife never did or always gave me a hard time. So either way I win!
Yep, I stayed away from mushy, slow stuff today and listened to mostly rock and lastest pop stuff. Helped a little but in case you haven't noticed it seems like 98% of songs are about love. So while I have XM radio, I still had to switch stations quite a bit.
Your best bet may be to get a MP3 player and make a playlist just for the occassion. That's what I'm doing
Ok, another interesting twist. The wife called again wanted to talk to D13. D13 comes to me after about a 5 min conversation and wants to talk. I say what's up? She says, mommy wants me to call her every night at 7. I said ok. She said I don't want to. If she wants to talk to me why can't she call me? I said that's a good question. She said she's the one that left, she's the one that should be calling. I said that's a good point. Did you tell her this, I asked? She said no. I asked how come? She said well, she'll get mad. I said does that really matter to you? She said I don't know. I said, did she seem to care that you were mad that she left? She said nope she didn't. I asked what they talked about. She said the wife tried to force coversation about her day and my D13 was clearly annoyed. I told her that her mommy was still her mommy and she needed to respect her but she also needed to be honest with her about how she feels. I said, if she's mad what's she gonna do if she's not here? My daughter laughed at this. She also said that she had asked if my daughter wanted to do something this weekend. I said, what did you tell her? She said she would have to check with me. I asked D13 if she wanted to do something w/ her. She said no, I'm still mad at her and plus she's annoying? WOW--out of the mouths of babes.
Ok, I'm trying to be so careful here and not take delight in this because it is in fact tragic that this is unfolding the way it is, but I am learning a lot about the wife's behavior and my daughter's perception of her mom and her associated behavior and it's not good.
I told her she needed to be clear about her feelings and not sugar coat them. If she wanted to call, then call. If she didn't, then don't. When confronted though, tell mom, I didn't feel like calling or I don't feel like talking. It felt like a productive conversation and I didn't dog the wife at all to the daughter although I certainly could have.
AF,
You're a good dad.
Puppy
I totally agree with Puppy and Mel: you are a good Dad!
Thanks guys, but it's going downhill now. My daughter is starting to realize what's going on now. She starts asking all these questions about why mommy left. I told her that I didn't show mommy the love and affection that she deserved and mommy wasn't willing to forgive me for way she feels I treated her and my SS in the past. She said that's retarded. I said that may be but that's the way she feels. She said I want to call her. I said ok, call away. Next thing I know, the wife wants to talk to me. She starts by cussing at me and asks why I'm putting her daughter to this. I said I haven't put her up to anything and told her that D13 wanted to call as she was starting to feel bad about the situation. She said do you really want me to tell her why? I said, hell, I'd like you to tell me why first. She said you have been cruel to me and SS19 for years. I should have left you 8 years ago. She referred to incidents that happened over the years that were very isolated and involved no hitting or abuse or anything like that. I said, I could argue that you were cruel as well. She said that's true. I said the main difference is that I have forgiven you and you choose not to forgive me. She said, and I never will! She said is that what you want to tell D13? I said, that's up to you. She said that's not fair to her. I said neither is her mother leaving her. She cussed at me and said let me speak to my daughter. I said there is no reason to cuss and if you want to speak to her you can ask as you told me you wanted to be civil. She said you're right, could I please speak to D13? Ok, no problem. I said and one more thing, when you asked if I was ok earlier, I want you to know I am but I am not ok with you doing this. She said I don't really care and I won't bother you again, I'll call directly to D13. I said you're not bothering me, I just wanted to clarify for you in case you were wondering. Oh, she was so angry.
So, I go take the phone to D13 and she has locked her self in her room. So I had to ask her to open up while I've got the wife listening on the phone. She finally opens up and I say mommy wants to talk to you and turn around and go back to the other room.
2 minutes later D13 comes out crying and hands me the phone. I said what now? She doesn't want to talk but I follow her to her room and coax her into telling me. She asked the wife again why are you doing this? Wife says she didn't get the love and attention she needed and didn't want to be married to daddy anymore. She said she didn't want to go into the rest as D13 didn't need to know. So, I told her what the wife had said to me. That I was cruel(which I don't know how, I mean come on almost every couple has arguements and she was just as cruel to me if thats what you wanna call it). I told her that mommy has decided that she doesn't want to forgive me for these things and therefore doesn't want to be married to me. She said but why won't she forgive you? I said I don't know, I have asked her to and love her very much but that is her choice and I can't make her do anything she doesn't want to do. She said but she left me too. I said I know, I don't understand either. We talked for a little more and I told her that I would take care of her. She said that her mom wanted to take her to a movie tomorrow night but she didn't want to go and that she hated her mom right now. I said you don't hate her, you're just upset. I said if you don't want to go then tell her that. Long conversation and I am very upset now, not only for me but for my daughter and for my failed marriage
Am I insane or is there not an article on this board here that talks about forgiveness and how it can set you free and how you can be a better person, etc, etc. I know I have made mistakes in the past and have owned them and asked for forgiveness.
Bottom line, I don't know how to make the wife forgive me and fear that she never will regardless of how I act now or in the future. What a way to end the day...
AFWAW, I hate to break it to you, but the whole thing about forgiveness for past transgressions is just an excuse. It is another way of saying ILYBNILWY.
Somewhere, underneath all the stuff that is being said publicly is the real reason that this is happening. It may have something to do with the way that you treated her in the past, but my suspicion is that it is only a minor component.
Your D13 sounds exactly like my D12, right down to her attitude and feelings toward her mom. In my case, I think I told my D12 too much information about what mom and dad were going through, and my W clobbered me for being too informative with them. If either of our sitches end up in divorce court, it can be detrimental that we have been so open. Just a thought.
Hang in there man, your roller-coaster ride is just starting.
AFWAW, I hate to break it to you, but the whole thing about forgiveness for past transgressions is just an excuse. It is another way of saying ILYBNILWY.
Clarification please? I am a little confused by this.
Forgiveness is a very powerful thing. The misunderstanding is that you do it for someone else. I have come to the realization that the person who benefits most is the person doing the forgiving.
Spell is dead on in this. Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. While that is the title of an article by Michelle, it is also very true. The best thing I could have done for ME, MY mental health, and MY kids was to forgive my DH and the OW. Was it easy??? Heck no!, Especially not the OW. But the bitterness, anger, and hurt was eating me up. Look at my last three threads and you can see it in my posts. Shortly before Christmas, I was starting to scare some of my supportive friends--both here and in RL. My anger and frustrations were palpable. Yet slowly, through the holidays, with God's love and support, I found the courage to forgive my DH. Then, with the help of a group at church, I found the strength to forgive OW.
The thing about forgiveness, too, is that there are layers to it. Think Shrek when he says ogres have layers like an onion. When you peel one away, there is a deeper one. As you get closer to the center, the layers sometimes are dense, sometimes thin. The depth of the forgiveness is directly proportional to the extent of the wounding and the intimacy of the relationship that the wounding occurred in.
I am sure there are going to be repeated needs to forgive both of them, but the removal of the initial bitterness and pain was like being set free from a cage. I know this is also true, as my mother commented to me last night about the calm and peace I have gained in the past few months and the only things I can attribute it to is forgiving my DH and the OW, and walking closer with the Lord to enable me to forgive.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
I actually think the lack of forgiveness may be one the reasons she has left me. I have seen her hold on to things for a long time not including what she feels towards me. She has given me numerous reasons to include freedom that she didn't have before, she claims I was controlling, mean to her son(feels I treated him poorly at times and differently than my D)--did I teat him differently?--you bet, he was a different person--could I have done a better job?--you bet--did I make mistakes?--of course--Do I have regrets about some of the things I've said and done--absolutely. She feels that I was too hard on him and never gave him the benefit of the doubt--I shared this w/ D13 because I wanted her to understand. She simply said "Why can't she just forgive you and come home?"--I told her I didn't know and couldn't make her.
Other things wife brought up--claims she was #2 to D13--hey at times she was--I gave D13 a lot of affection--it was unconditional--wife's was not--I woke up way too late on this one--In the word's of another DBer on here--if it would help save my family, I would crawl through broken glass to show her how much I love her.
The wife brought up a few more things that she claims were reasons to leave--we had been married maybe 3 years and had to drive from her parents to the airport to go overseas--it was like an 8 hour drive and she refused to drive as I not let her drive the rental car from the day prior. Anyway, she haranged the crap out of me in the car on the way and I finally got tired of hearing it, promptly pulled over and kicked her out on the highway--not my finest hour--after she walked about 20 feet, I quickly realized what I'd done, pulled up beside her and apologized profusely and convinced her to get back in the car--this was in the 1990s btw--a long time ago.
Another reason she cited was a time I had kicked her out of our house. She threatened divorce a lot in the past. She had done so on the evening previos to this incident--I didn't react to the threat that night and the next day she had seemed to have cooled off. Matter of fact, if memory serves, she was actually very pleasant. I was going to the store and asked her if she needed anything--she stated that she did and said I'm still divorcing you though. I snapped, grabbed her by the arm and promptly led her out the door. She sat outside and threatened to call the cops, ruin my career, etc--after it was over, I apologized, she did too and we made up.
Who knows what else she has stored in her mind? Hey, I'm not proud of these moments and I'm not making excuses but I never hit her or cheated on her. If someone says that they forgive you and holds on to them for years and years then I can see why she is so bitter towards me and has left.
The problem is she's not just affecting me, she's affecting my daughter. I told my D13 all of this. She said she needs to forgive you. I said, honey, I don't know what to tell you. She said well, I want to live with you.
So the bottom line is sadly that my wife is a very unhappy person who I feel has given up a husband who loves her more than she knows and would do anything to make her feel loved(this hurts the most I think, probably because I love her very much and feel like a failure for not adequately showing her in the past), a beautiful daughter who needs her mommy to come home and needs her guidance and unconditional love, an awesome house and a real chance at happiness if she wants it. She has to choose it though. I continue to pray for my wife to find the spirit of forgiveness before it is too late.
AF: I think you've received some outstanding advice from Puppy, Mel, Portland, et al. One of the things I've (finally) learned is that compartmentalization is key -- no different from handling classified, btw. With D13 it's a question of "need-to-know." She doesn't need to know everything. That's not being deceptive, that's recognizing that you can't pour a gallon of milk into a pint container. With respect to W, it's compartmentalization for you -- what bits do you choose to let in, what bits do you not "need-to-know?" Why doesn't she forgive you? Who knows? You can't look inside her head. So in a sense you don't have a "need-to-know." You need to work with the information you have. Your earlier posts are incredibly positive sounding, but these later ones sound like you're letting W chip away at the foundation you're building.
Actually, I feel stronger. I have come to the conclusion that if she doesn't want to forgive me then I can't make her and while I will wait for a while if she was to come back then she would have to forgive me to make this work. Last night was about concentrating on my daughter. I think my D13 should know that the wife won't forgive me--at least it makes her feel like it isn't her fault that her mom left her. If anything, I would rather her blame me than the wife. Did that happen? No, she wants to know why mommy can't forgive me? A valid question I feel as no one is perfect.
And as far as my need to know regarding the wife's decision to leave, I think you're wrong. The reason being that if she decides to come home(which doesn't look promising at this point)I will do my best not to repeat past transgressions and if she doesn't I have a powerful lesson that I have learned and hopefully will not repeat in the future. The funny thing is, I don't even feel like crying now. I feel incredibly sorry for my wife and hurt for my daughter because of this. I will continue to be positive for my daughter and hope and pray that my wife can find forgiveness in her heart and make her way home before she misses out on what could have been as I love her with all me heart.
AFWAW
My wife actually told me about 4 weeks ago that she forgave me. I thought great! Then the but came, she said that she can't forget and doesn't know how to get past the hurt/pain, blah, blah, blah.
I was devestated again - I broke down and was a wreck because I thought that was the key.
What I realize now that forgiveness is just the first step, which may be the "easiest" for your spouse, but the hardest part is to rebuild/regain the trust that has been lost.
She had told me a couple of weeks ago that she still can't see trusting anyone, especially me, with her heart as I had broken/hurt it so badly. Again, I broke down, not as bad as I've been getting stronger, but I let her know how much it hurt me.
The key thing I'm focused on now is that in the past, I always thought that my wife was the soure of my happiness. I was so wrong. I realized that during counseling on Monday nite.
My wife is a source of her love for me. My sons are a source of their love for me. I am my source of my love for myself, which is the true source of my happiness.
Sounds like you have a great relationship with your daughter. Don't let this mess drown you in the muck to hurt that relationship!
Ah, my Air Force friend -- and congratulations on the BSM, by the way (just caught up on the thread) -- I would maintain that you don't need to know WHY she left, because none of us can know that. Like my W, yours seems to have a need to identify a Bad Guy. I remember back in the old days, on the firing range, the targets were all made to look like Soviet soldiers -- identify a bad guy and shoot better. So she'll be more than happy to tell you ALL the things you did "wrong," whether (a) you did them and (b) they were wrong or not! What I've finally got MY head around is that DB'ing is about identifying HOW you went wrong and changing that. But it seems to me that this is a process of INTERNAL discovery, not external.
A WAW/MLC'er will ALWAYS find a laundry list of things to blame us for. But if we take those things at their face value, if we take a WAW or MLC'er at their word -- and, really, how valuable has THAT word been recently? -- then we're letting THEM define US.
I had someone define me once. He was a Drill Sergeant, in 1983. He told me I was scum, the lowest form of life on the planet, useless to myself and my battle buddies when the sh*t hit the fan and the Russkies came pouring through the Fulda Gap. And he was right -- when the Big Day came, the DrHemlock standing in his starchy green fatigues in the hot summer sun WOULD have been useless to himself and his battle buddies. So I took it.
And thereafter, I defined myself.
Now WAW is trying to define me, like yours is trying to define you. But this time we're fighting on MY battlefield -- MY home, MY children -- and I'm trained. So I don't have to fight the battle on W's terms. Like a good tactician, I'm going to fight on MY terms.
Rommel! You magnificent bastard! I read your book!
DrH,
It makes sense what you are saying. I have come to the conclusion that it is a bunch of things that have built up inside of her over the years making her bitter. That coupled with the fact that she had time to think about it while I was not there gave her the courage, for lack of a better word to do what she is doing. I am not letting her define me in my mind. I accept responsibility however for the things I have done and have not done. Does it make the situation any better? No. Does it give me focus, yes. With that I can focus on what I failed on and if given the opportunity with my wife, I can attempt to make it better and if not, I am armed w/ the knowledge in the event I have a future relationship.
The weird thing is with this realization I am less emotional than I was before. I actually feel sorry for my wife in that she is not only to forgive me but am wondering who else she is unable to forgive? That much bitterness does nothing for one's happiness in my opinion.
BTW, after she said last night she wasn't going to bother me anymore, she sent me a job announcement for her work. There is no way I will take a job at her work if she goes through with what she has said. How uncomfortable would that be? I certainly could not handle it.
If you read MWDs definition of a WAS, you can see the "script" that they follow. Woman are usually the relationship temperature takers; they decide when there is enough closeness, affection, etc. When that drops off, the nagging starts, which drives the men away, etc. etc.
The important thing to see if that when the W stops working on the M, they have drawn the "line in the sand", and they are simply waiting for the trigger. It seems like the trigger is most often an A with an OM, but it can be other things too. The "fog" that the WAS is in actually was planted much earlier, and once the trigger event occurs, they are on auto-pilot away from the M.
I do agree that forgiveness is important; but forgiveness is the gift that you must give yourself. Your W will forgive, but not until she is ready to come back. I think the ordering of those events is reversed: by GLA, 180s, etc. we cast ourselves in a better light, which works on our S to have second thoughts, and start dwelling on the positives, which drives them to a desire to try again with the R. True forgiveness follows as you rebuild and strengthen the R. Any forgiveness that is granted right away is likely transitory.
But that is just my opinion
Portland Dad,
I think that's why I am more calm. I have asked for her forgiveness and I have forgiven myself. I just don't want to forget what I've learned for reasons stated earlier. And you may be right, any forgiveness given may be in fact transitory. But there has to be a first step. So, I continue to have a PMA, stand up for myself, work on my body, educate my mind and provide a positive environment for my daughter. There will be some difficult times because of this, I know. I don't like that this is happening but unfortunately I am not driving the train at this time. So I will continue to post and attempt to change myself for the better.
Ok, my calm didn't last long. I have an appointment downtown w/ my counselor this afternoon so I had to leave work early. Had to drive past my wife's building and felt my emotions coming on again. I thought about my daughter and how she felt last night and about how I feel and it came again in a big rush. I'll talk it over w/ my counselor. I just wish my wife had the courage to first forgive and then try to make this work. I know it took a lot of courage for her to walk away but it will take much more for her to come back. If she could only read my mind, she would know how I feel and how much I care for her. I fear this is going to get worse very quickly with the conversation my wife will have with my D13 tonight. I am so weary. I just want it to be better and to be able to hold my wife.
Be strong, big guy. Most of us here know the desperation that you are feeling. Just make sure that you only express that desperation here: to your W you need to be happy, confident, and acting "as if" everything was fine. In time, you shouldn't need to act, it will be real.
I'm praying for both of our families.
Ok, thanks, I feel a little bit better. Saw my counselor and she told me that I need to stop thinking about it and need to confront my wife as to when she's going to remove the rest of her belongings from the house. She says she can understand her leaving me but she is perplexed about her leaving her daughter. My wife called a little bit ago and did not want to speak with me but with my daughter. Ok, that makes it a little easier. I mean if she's going to do this then I don't want to see her or speak to her ever again. It will make me feel bad everytime. Does that make sense? I feel I will have to move to end it in my mind if she does. Fortunately for me, that is a good possibility being in the military. We'll see.
AFWAW, you are I are in the same spot. My W left me and our 3 kids behind and moved (back) to Germany. Her prime motivation was an aggressive A with an OM. Sadly, this seems to be the strongest motivator to compel a W to leave their kids. I pray that your sitch turns out differently, since I think a forgiveness issue might be easier to resolve than a full-blooded A, but maybe I feel that way because of where my family is currently at.
Another thing; it is normal to feel discouraged while DB'ing. Come on here and blow off some steam! You are among friends and sympathizers here. Hopefully you read some other folks' sitches and take some pieces of wisdom from their stories and what is working for them.
Do you still want to save your M? Only you can decide how much you can take and how far you want to go. If nothing else, you are doing an amazing job with your D. Work on that, and work on you -- you can decide how to handle your W later as there will be plenty of time for the rollercoaster to run its' course.
Peace.
PortlandDad
Thanks brother, I apprecite it. Well my daughter and I went out to eat and went to Walmart. She is such a trooper. She caught me thinking about the sitch and smacked me and said knock it off! LOL!! I'm pretty bummed right now. I still don't know if the wife is having an affair or not. I pray that she's not but I'll probably never know. I am looking at what to do if this unfolds poorly. I have already made the decision to move. How soon depends on a number of factors.
I still want to save my marriage. Sadly, my wife does not. My daughter and I are going to the beach for a few hours tomorrow. I'm going to have to force myself to do stuff or I will just sit in this house and wither away.
At least you don't have to see your wife--I think that would be easier and I could get past it quicker. I don't know. Hope you have a good weekend.
AFWAW,
I think you need to look to your daughter as inspiration.
I hate to keep harping on the music thing but it has really helped keep me in perspective - I downloaded the 80's Metal Gold Album and it is good since it's upbeat and has no soft love song gushy stuff to get me down. I listen to it whenever I'm driving.
Not sure if that's your type of groove, but put a playlist together of stuff that keeps you pumped up so you can listen to it whenever you need to. I used to rely an the DB forum to get upbeat/encouragement, but the MP3 player is really on demand.
Best of luck to you.
You survived 2 wars. This is another one. You can do it!
Yeah, I hear you. Daughter is inspiring. On the way home she says can I control the radio? I said sure but no love songs!!! She finds a good techno station on XM and turns it up!!! Pretty cool. We are watching a movie she wants to right now.
The wife called a bit ago to ask what the min payment on our joint visa is. She said I tried to look online but apparently you changed the code. She said I don't think you can see what the payment is anyway? She said I'm only going to pay the min payment. I said I understand. She said, I know you do. Ok, bye.
Now if she knows you can't see the min payment, why do you think she was looking for it online? She wanted to see how much money I have, doesn't she? She sounded a bit snippy, so I'll assume she was pissed she couldn't see the account? Why should she be able to? It is so strange to have money. I looked at what I bought over last payday and it wasn't a lot. Really strange that I have as much this payday in the account as we would have had together. I almost feel guilty about it. It will take some time I'm sure but I will get used to it and find something I want to spend my money on. If we get back togehter, we will have a joint account and two seperate accounts.
So what did I learn by her calling? She is not out with another guy and it's 9pm on a Friday. Most guys I know wouldn't tolerate this type of behavior on a Friday night, so that's promising right?
Maybe it's promising; maybe not...true detachment comes when you don't worry about the reasons behind what she does.
You're a good father. Enjoy your relationship with your D and try to not worry about what your W does nor why.
I guess I'm not there yet then. It is so tough. I find myself not knowing what to do especially on the weekends. This is exasperating not knowing what the future holds w/ my wife. Why is it so hard to let go? I find myself very angry this morning and in very much despair. Has anyone else had this much of a problem?
Yes, I feel the same way. Very angry and very sad. I can't seem to find anything that provides any joy or happiness in my life, every day is a struggle, and I feel totally lost. I wish I had words of encouragement, but at least know that I can fully empathize with you, and will pray for you.
Everyone says you have to detach, and I just can't seem to get there. I would rather lose an arm or leg than to lose my family.
I am struggling with the detachment also. Funny how the WAS has no issues detaching. I have had extreme emotional turmoil as well. I guess if nothing else we can take comfort that we are not going through this alone, even though it does feel that way. Know that almost everyone here, share so many feelings and emotions in common. I am praying for you.
[quote=AFWAW]
2) Most wayward spouses -- and nearly ALL wayward women -- have an enabling friend, usually a girlfriend, and maybe more than one that they surround themselves with. Has she cut off or pulled back on her usual relationships with friends and family, and gravitated toward a new small circle like this?
This is so TRUE!! My wife's "new" best friend is twice her age and has been enabling my wife to move forward and file for D. In fact they did it within a day of each other. Her true best friend has been telling her to work on the M and consider MC, now my W has very little to do with her. Strange phenomenon...I guess the cliche is true that misery loves company.
2) Most wayward spouses -- and nearly ALL wayward women -- have an enabling friend, usually a girlfriend, and maybe more than one that they surround themselves with. Has she cut off or pulled back on her usual relationships with friends and family, and gravitated toward a new small circle like this?
Yep. My W ditched her family and almost all of our mutual friends after she dropped the bomb. She has surrounded herself with lots of single and new friends, mostly ones who barely know me or don't know me at all. That way she can paint any picture she wants of me and our M, making herself out to be a victim. But she's knows she can't pull that nonsense with her family and our mutual friends.
Hey guys...I know what each of you are feeling. I've been there. My M has been in shambles for 3 years. If I had found this place back then; maybe I'd be in a different position.
True detachment, IMO, can only come when YOU GAL. you have to occupy your life so that you are concerned with your own activites and you dont have time to concern yourself with hers. Only then can you let go.
In my sitch, my W needed to grow up and learn how to live on her own. She reached a point where she felt she had no identity; so she went searching. Now that doesn't excuse affairs; that's why it's important to establish boundaries and financial independence.
Time and GAL help best. I'm praying for us all.
So, the wife just called. She said is D13 ever going to speak to me again or what? I said I guess, why? She said she was supposed to call me. I said hold on. She talked w/ D13 and when they got off the phone my D says what is her deal? I said what do you mean?
I don't understand why the wife thinks this is going to be easy for D13 or for her. I mean you just don't leave and expect everybody to be good. How do you make a person realize this? Or do they have to realize it on thier own?
Why does love have to be so complicated? This is so maddening...
Most wayward spouses -- and nearly ALL wayward women -- have an enabling friend, usually a girlfriend, and maybe more than one that they surround themselves with. Has she cut off or pulled back on her usual relationships with friends and family, and gravitated toward a new small circle like this?
My W also. One of her friends left her H the same week my W left me, and another was widowed 2 years ago and is now living the happy single life.
How are kids supposed to learn how to have healthy relationships, and solve problems by working on them when they are getting this kind of example from their mother? When the going gets tough, run away from the problem and maybe it will all go away.
As much as I am heartbroken for myself, I am more so for my 2 sons who I feel will be permanently damaged by this. That is one of the big reasons why I think I can't detach, because I never want my sons to think I gave up. It's bad enough when one parent is a quitter.
I know what you are thinking about trying to keep your sons from thinking that YOU gave up. But what I've learned from my own S and D (and they are younger than yours) is that they know who has left the family and whom they can trust. Show them an example of what NOT to tolerate in a marriage.
It's tough when the WAW caters to every whim and waits on them hand and foot (guilt fueled bribery). Trying to teach personal responsibility and values is very difficult when parents don't work as a team, and one parent takes the easy convenient route so as not to lose affection.
When children are involved, you have to put aside the petty rivalries and arguments and think about what it best for them. Whether your WAS continues to have contact with them or not, they need to be reassured that both of their parents love them and that what is happening is not their fault.
MC is totally correct: kids will recognize which Sp walked away and which one stayed. Unless your kids are extremely young or materialistic, they will recognize when they are being "bought off".
My W, for example, took all 3 of our kids shopping just before she left. She spent over two thousand dollars on new clothes and electronics for them. Did they like going shopping? Sure, they are teenagers. Did they recognize what she was doing? You bet they did. In fact, my D12 even asked me afterwords if I thought she should return all the stuff mom bought her because she was worried that it would cause our new family some financial hardship.
Wow, what a day. Just got home from the movies and eating out w/ the wife and daughter. Wife was very pleasant out but when we got back to the house when gathering more things to take to her apartment she started on my about the phone call I made the other day. Apparently, the person I called made some calls of his own and it got back to the wife. She was highly pissed and told me that this was the type of BS that had made her want to leave in the first place. She said we are never getting back together and you just need to get over and quit being a baby. She said I should have left your ass in 1995 when I orginally wanted to. I said why didn't you then? Why would you lie to me for years? She said I don't know. I guess because D13 was born. She said I can't stand the way you've treated me and things you've said. Ok, have I said some things and not treated her well--that could be argued either way. Could I have done better--you bet, both of us could have. Was I immature?--yep. Have I matured?--yep The thing is she seems to have hit a point where she can take no.
I guess the big difference is I am willing to work on this and she is not. Another thing, because she was so mean about it I felt less emotional. I don't feel like crying, moping, nothing. I just feel empty and betrayed. What a cold, hard woman. I don't know what the future holds for me and my daughter but I know if my wife won't accept my love and all I have to offer then I will find a woman who will. It's just amazing to me how she is letting her anger rule her life and giving up so much for it. Uggggghhhhhhhhh....
Wife was very pleasant out but when we got back to the house when gathering more things to take to her apartment she started on my about the phone call I made the other day. Apparently, the person I called made some calls of his own and it got back to the wife. She was highly pissed and told me that this was the type of BS that had made her want to leave in the first place.
God, that is SUCH script!!!! hahahahahahah
Can't they come up with something more original???
Sorry . . . couldn't resist.
Puppy
what he means is, most spouse's have the same dang story and the same dang excuses and it's NEVER their fault...it's always ALL YOUR fault...etc.
Think you will see that, but wanted to make sure.
Hope you are okay. Last two days have been...like nothing before. He broke his leg. Hospital. Surgery tomorrow. Drama. But I love his mom!
Anyway. I think you are doing good. I'm glad you have some insight and are able to make some realizations. It's hard for some people. (I always found it hard to truly, objectively analyze my own stitch.) Have always found that to be true in all parts of my life, though.
Wish there was a Dummies or Idiots book for that!
Melissa
Yeah, it is pretty un-original. And I'm feeling less and less nostalgic about my marriage the colder she gets. I actually took off my ring tonight. I guess you could call that me acting as if. She doesn't care about me and I can't make her. My wife made a comment at dinner tonight in front of my daughter that was highly inappropriate. She asked if I was looking at other women yet. My daughter commented on this when the wife left. Wow. My daughter said she doesn't want spend the night at the wife's place. The wife kept commenting to me about my daughter's attitude towards her as well. I didn't say anything, just acknowledged her. COME ON LADY--you left her high and dry. Not only did you leave, she is a teenager---HOW DO YOU THINK SHE IS GOING TO BE???? Fortunately for me my daughter sees right through her. ARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! #$#%@#%#@$@#$@#@#$@#@#%@#%@$@#%@$@$@#$@#
I guess the big difference is I am willing to work on this and she is not. Another thing, because she was so mean about it I felt less emotional. I don't feel like crying, moping, nothing. I just feel empty and betrayed. What a cold, hard woman. I don't know what the future holds for me and my daughter but I know if my wife won't accept my love and all I have to offer then I will find a woman who will. It's just amazing to me how she is letting her anger rule her life and giving up so much for it. Uggggghhhhhhhhh....
My sentiments exactly. I was just pondering this exact type view of my W and my sitch. I was looking in her eyes today and wondering where the sweet woman I married went. Only coldness, hardness, and bitterness. It is truly sad. It is sad they give up on us at the time when things could be better than ever. Keep your head up AFWAW. I empathize with you.
Hey Mel,
Yeah, I'm ok. I think I'm past the shock finally. I miss her still but don't want her back if she thinks I'm a dick. She can't respect me if she thinks that. I'm not giving up but I really, really think it's over. All I see is a hard, cold woman who wants nothing to do with me anymore. If it wasn't for my daughter, she would probably never talk to me again. And I'm not just saying that. If you could see the hate in her face, hear the hate in her voice. Such bitterness--to tell me that she should have left me in 1995--wow. Even if she does come back, I'm always going to be thinking she doesn't want to be with me. For God's sake--it's 2009. Why the freak would you hang out for that long?
Again, I'm ok but I still think there isn't much hope, really. My daughter said to me a little while ago--I'm glad you're finally getting it. I said, what are you talking about? She said how mommy really is--she's mean. Wow--smart girl.
Sorry to hear about your drama but you know that's the type of thing that draws folks closer together so you never know this might be the thing that gets you two back together.
I think you are a lot stronger than you think and it's always easier to look at someone elses sitch and analyze cause it's not personal. If it's yours then it's personal.
And I'm not just saying that. If you could see the hate in her face, hear the hate in her voice. Such bitterness--to tell me that she should have left me in 1995--wow. Even if she does come back, I'm always going to be thinking she doesn't want to be with me. For God's sake--it's 2009. Why the freak would you hang out for that long?
AF -- are we in a bigamy situation, here?!?! My WAW said just about the same thing yesterday a.m.!
I've been all up in my head lately -- bad, bad thing to do -- and wrote the outburst off as just being mean, but there's always a kernel of truth.
But I think it's
today's truth, not yesterday's -- in other words, she's evaluating the past through today's emotions.
But in either case, I think your conclusions are right on. If that's her attitude, it makes it a lot easier to move forward. Because, really, is that the person you want?
I think we LBS's often seem to forget, or not consider, the fact that our WAS's are changing even while we're changing -- no matter how high or low the probability is that we reconcile, "that" marriage will not be the same one that we used to have.
It's a new marriage that just happens to have the same people in it. So when I think about reconciliation, I have to think about that "new" marriage -- is
this someone I would ask to marry me today, and not "why o why can't I have my old wife back?" Sounds to me like you've been asking yourself that question in a way, and the answer is, "Not so much."
AFWAW, my wife wanted me to find someone too. If you did, it legitamizes the sitch and lessens her guilt. More WAW dribble.
This all seems to be part of the script. The WAS rewrited history (our R was never good and I never should have said yes to M in the first place) and tries to push the LBS away or into another R to lesson their own guilt.
I also got both of these. "We have never really loved each other" (????)"
, "If we hadn't started having kids I would have left 7 years ago" and "why are you hanging on? -- why don't you just go find someone else?"
It all seems to be part of the script. I know my W does not really mean some of it, because shortly after she got mad and accused me of getting in touch with an old girlfriend (which I hadn't)
Just keep your focus on yourself.
Thinker - I guess you and me are in a bigamy situation too!
Someone needs to start the WAS Script forum. "WAS For Dummies."
I'm having a really difficult time sitting here going over the stuff in my head over the years that has happened and built up to this point. I regret so bad letting the wife get me into a relationship talk last night and hearing some of the things she said. I know it's stupid to sit here and beat myself up too. I just wish I knew what the snapping point was. At what point in time did it happen and why? What makes people decide to give up and go their seperate ways when everything seemed to be fine before.
My daughter started talking about her mom again this morning. Said she was still mad at her. Said she was tired of her talking about the attitude she was displaying. I listened but told her once again that she is still your mom.
Oh, what a year...
AFWAW,
You are right not to beat yourself up over it. The WAW script is that they have some point pre-defined when they will make their escape. Right up until that point, the LBS has no idea that there is a problem, in fact, the M can actually be very good! The W usually doesn't nag, the sex life might even be just fine, right up until the trigger event occurs and they walk.
In my W's case, the trigger was when she found the OM, as is a very common case with WAWs, but it can also be when they complete their education, when the kids are old enough, when they can support themselves, etc. It would be nice if us LBHs would have some warning that this is going on, but usually there is none.
With the magic ability of hindsight, it becomes a little clearer what we should have been doing, and how selfish, inattentive, unloving, or uncaring we were. Unfortunately for us, by the time they are on their way out the door, the things that they are complaining about and issues that they use to bash us are "unfixable". Trying to fix them after-the-fact just leads to resentment, and justifies their behavior in their mind. This is why detachment, and GAL are so important. Just GAL can be seen as appeasement or even pursuit if it is done purely for the purpose of wooing a wayward W back. Of course you want you W back, that IS the purpose of DB'ing, right? Well, maybe. I think DB'ing has a higher purpose. for me, it is about becoming a better person and forging stronger ties to our kids and building a stronger, more loving family unit. If the WAS wants to be part of what you are building for your family, then you get the collateral benefit of getting your W back and forging a new marriage with the old people (like DrHemlock just said!). If they do move on, then you have the strength and foundation for a good life without them.
Honestly, where I am in my sitch, it doesn't really matter to me if my W comes back or not. Of course I still love her, and of course if she did come back with the expressed purpose of re-building our marriage I would take her back, but it doesn't matter to me if that actually happens because I know I will be happy with or without her.
Ok, the wife just stopped over unannounced. She called from the driveway and I ignored the call to the house phone and cell phone before I realized that she was in the driveway. She called again and I answered. She said can you let me in? Sure, she had stopped by to pay child support. She asked why there was no garage door opener in the truck. She has a key to it. Anyway, I said why do you need access to the house? She said, is this about last night? I said, no but when are you going to get the rest of your stuff out? She said if I can borrow the truck then this week. And then I'll never come over here again if that's what you want. I said that's up to you and sat down and ignored her. She said are you looking to fight? I looked at her and said no. She saw my No More Nice Guy book and said what's that about. I said I don't know, I havent' read it yet. My daughter seemed awfully awkward as well while she was here. The wife stated well, it seems like I'm bothering you so I'll leave. She was here maybe 5 minutes max. Ugggghhhhhh
So all in all, not a great moment for me as far as DBing is concerned. I have been way too nice about the whole thing anyway. My grade for DBing today has got to be an F but I'm so mad at her right now, I just don't care.
Actually, I think you did good. And let me tell you why. "It seems like I'm bothering you so I'll leave" is code for "I'm an imposition. I'm a victim in this. Poor pity me, the family I left doesn't want me anymore. wah-wah."
So I think it's GREAT if you left it at that. Let her sit and stew.
On the other hand, I would like for you to take the high road and put your ring back on. You're still married til the papers are signed. It is a sign of disrespect (to yourself, your daughter, and the M, and your wife, but we won't go there). It really torqued me when I saw H without his rings. I took mine off after I noticed he didn't have his on. I even waited a couple days to make sure it wasn't a one time deal. It wasn't. I took mine off and when he noticed he called me on it. To which I was able to reply "I only took mine off because I saw you did." This was after I realized I wanted to work on the M. I regret it now. After a few weeks, I put them back on. Then after he took her home for Christmas, I gave him the rings and told them I didn't want them or care about them unless he was putting them back on my fingers. I wanted there to be meaning behind why I wore them - I falsely attached the meaning with him giving them to me, not just because I attached the meaning myself. Now, I have a simple James Avery ring that I bought about 6 or 7 years ago that I wear. jamesavery.com if you are interested for your daughter. very tasteful, often religious silver/gold jewelry, charm bracelets, girlie stuff if she is into that but it's very ....classy. They are from the Texas hill country, but I think of them more as classy Savannah Georgia jewelry. Anyway. So I wish I still had my real rings on my fingers, but this one is me, and that's what I'm learning.
New book for you that you can get at Walmart. It is called Broken Open. It is Phoenix stuff, rising from the ashes. I think you will like it. how difficult times can help us grow. She made mistakes. her husband made mistakes. They had life lessons to learn. It is a different way of looking at things, but some of it seems to be very DB, so far. "no problem has ever been solved from the same consciousness that created it." that's DB. there were a few other things, too. it is not pro-marriage. it is pro-GAL. It is not anti-marriage either. It is about you finding yourself and that sometimes we have to be "broken open" to do that. To truly open and let others into our lives.
Anyway. Well, the idea about something like this bringing two people closer together didn't work.
It was my hope, too. The girl moved out but the friendship is still there. he is willing to risk his career over it because he was told to move her out and she did...but so now she is still there every night then goes home to her own place. was gonna take D4 back to the hospital tonight but she was there, so i skipped it and let him know that i did and why and he got mad. that's his choice. he can be mad. IT IS VERY VERY VERY hard for me to remember that I DO NOT WANT THIS MARRIAGE BACK AT ALL COSTS. I want a right marriage and I am not gonna let him walk all over me. He said why won't you bring D4. Told him I was not gonna take her up there when OW doesn't respect me and he has the nerve to say, "And you respect her??" lmao. Luckily, I am the parent. If he wants to subject the son to it, I don't think it's right, but the kid is 13 and ..... ugh, i should just go post this on my own thread. suffice it to say it didn't work.
but his parents will be down next weekend and his mom is ready to beat his butt and i know she won't let her in the house, otherwise Brandon will totally hear all about it. I could still call the LtCol and talk to him. He is the only one this weekend who didn't totally treat me like crap. And talk to him about ordering those two to stay away from each other. But it's not realistic. And I want him to choose me. It's amazing. NO ONE likes this girl. I am totally not kidding. The command now hates her. H's friends hate her...one wife won't go over there at all cause she is there, the other wife told my H she wasn't coming over anymore because of the stitch...and his brother hates her...he is the only one who thinks she is the best thing...
It really must be a fog. Well, I remember that it was. So I am trying really hard to be...forgiving and understanding. But my daddy wants to kill him!
Okay. Really. I think you did good. I am proud of you. All those words ..."since 1995"... don't believe a single one of them. Don't let them get to you. She is just trying to justify it in her mind. She is rewriting the marriage history and just.....none of what you hear, bubba. Don't believe a damn thing you hear. Only half of what you see. Let her sit and stew in her own mess. The more you shut her out, NICELY, the more she is gonna want back in, I think. Firm detachment, but nice so that you don't seem punitive. Cordial. Like your great aunt Berta that knit you the shawl for Christmas when you were ten. You didn't really want to hug her, but you had to. You were polite, but that was absolutely IT. Yeah. Like that. She's Aunt Berta now.
Melissa
I agree with Mel on this. From your description of the evening, I wouldn't give you an F in DBing. It sounded like you were unemotional, cordial, and detached. I would say you get high marks for that! She obviously wants pity, and you clearly didn't go down that road, so more high marks for you.
Keep it up man. We are all rooting for you and your D.
Ok guys, thanks for the compliments but I wasn't cordial. You could see it on my face that I was cold. I do appreciate what you guys are saying though. I will try to be more cordial without being cold. Problem is, I've worn my emotions on my sleeve so long it's hard to just stop. It is difficult to not believe what she says. She is a very angry person so I will think about what you are saying Mel. I do appreciate the advice and support. It makes me feel a little better but I'm still waking up at 2 in the morning hoping this is all a dream and reaching out to the other side of the bed wishing. Hope you guys have a better nights sleep than me.
Wow, just got to work a little while ago from the gym and was getting my stuff out of the car and who do you think drove by and honked her horn at me? Yep, the wife. Why is it going through her mind that she thinks we can be friends and bs and whatnot. I am still really pissed about the comments made this weekend and wondering what she is thinking. Surely she doesn't think I want to be her friend after what she's done. I know you can't believe anything you hear but that hurt pretty bad on top of everything that's happened.
She's trying to "normalize" everything. Have you ever had the conversation with her about whether or not you will be her friend if your marriage ends this way?
No I haven't. I guess I need to. Her signals have been so mixed though, I guess I'm still hoping for what seems like isn't going to happen. I honestly don't know how to go about doing it and don't know why I'm holding on the way I am.
Everybody has to play it how they see fit, based on their own situation. I personally told my wife -- who was under the delusion that I was going to still be "best friends" with her -- that I would NOT even be a GOOD friend to her if she decided to end our marriage this way (by having an affair, lying about it, and refusing to work on our marriage). If, however, she ended her affair, and truly worked on us (including counseling), and if things didn't work out, then yes, I thought we would always remain friends.
Friends just don't do that (lie and cheat) to each other.
Puppy
I see what you mean. I'm still waiting based on the sitch. I think I'll know when to tell her. She is supposed to remove the rest of her belongings this week. I suspect she will say something to me about the way my daughter and I are acting toward her. I don't get why she thinks my daughter is "cool" with whats going on. I continue to look for jobs around the country...
I agree with Puppy, AF, who is a very wise and inspirational man indeed. My W and I had the friends talk. I was honest. I said, "Look, you're really asking too much right now. First, you're asking me simply to give up on something I value, our marriage. Second, you're asking me to overlook what has happened, because it's a 'symptom' and not the 'cause.' Third, you're asking me to project feelings into the future, and I don't know what the future is."
She seemed to get all that. So I told her that, yes, I understand that it would be *best* for the children if she and I were friendly. I understood that it would make the next 14 years (until youngest is out of "my" house) easier for everyone. But she needs to understand that I can't make that promise.
First, I don't know how I will feel about her as a person once this process ends, assuming it ends "her" way. Second, I don't know how I will feel about her as a person once I "meet" her fresh -- I meet a lot of people, but I don't like them all. And third, I don't know where *I* will be in terms of my relationships. Presumably it would be a h-e-l-l of a lot easier to be friends with (under that scenario) "X-W" if I was dating some hot young 25 year old!
So I think as a lot of folks have said to you in your thread, AF, especially PortlandDad, you need to take the bull by the horns and lay out the boundaries. There's a lot of differences between AF and Army, I know, and I don't know what your career field was/is, but if you've ever been trained on firing a machine-gun, you know that the first thing you have to do is fill out a range card and stake the left-right limits of your gun's traverse. Those are your boundaries for safety, given the tactical situation.
The same thing applies here. (Okay, now that I've preached, let me go try to practice!)
You're a good man, AF. You're serving our country, you're serving our children, you're serving your god. That's 3 for 3 -- don't forget it.
My wife reacted VERY strongly to D-then-18's criticisms and concerns about her mother's behavior during the affair. To this day, I think it was more my in-laws' (particularly my mother-in-law's) and my daughters' (particularly the daughter I'm talking about)'s disapproval of my wife's affair that did more to end it than anything I felt about it.
My daughter wrote her mother a strong, yet beautiful, 5-page handwritten letter, in which she told her how hurt she was, and how embarrassed and ashamed she was, after reading things my wife had inadvertently left on the home computer -- and even scolded her mother for leaving that where my daughter's little brothers (S-then-14 and S-then-10) could have found it! My wife and my daughter are EXTREMELY close (they are also spitting images of each other), and it hurt my wife very deeply to have to read those words from her. She took it well THAT NIGHT, but in the days and weeks that followed, she got real snotty about it, and made a couple of comments to me about how she "didn't appreciate it" how our daughter and how my MIL were reacting to all of this. I remember telling my wife "You don't get to choose how they react to what you did. What makes you think you get to choose how they feel and how they handle this traumatic news in their life with someone they love???"
I basically told her she had to sit there and take it.
Consequences.
Puppy
"You don't get to choose how they react to what you did. What makes you think you get to choose how they feel and how they handle this traumatic news in their life with someone they love???"
The truth delivered in one big, fat, hard-to-swallow reality pill. I like it.
Puppy -- that one rules. I'm with Spellfire aka Mike on that one! AF -- heed it well. Not all of us can be bold-as-brass like that, but find a way to apply it to your sitch. It's good. She gets to choose her way; we get to choose ours. Because divorce isn't between a couple -- it's between a family.
It's ironic, isn't it, how the cheating spouse is always quick to throw around the "controlling" accusation. And yet they get flummoxed -- even PIZZED -- when they don't get to control how everyone they care about reacts to their selfish decision-making.
Puppy
That's exactly right -- it's not enough to control someone else's destiny for F)(*)#$#$S)(UJKN!!@#$*@*&*@'s sake -- they have to control how we feel about that destiny. As my local ear put it -- it's just one long round of "thank you ma'am, may I have another?"
Son of a B#$%#$!!!!!!!! I'm having such a hard time concentrating today. I CANNOT STOP THINKING ABOUT THIS!!!!! WTF???? I absolutely hate her and what she stands for right now. This is so agonizing. Where's that magic wand that everyone is talking about? I've been looking for jobs all over and so far nothing. Most of the jobs require a master's degree, so it looks like I may have to stay in a few more years. Dammit! I really didn't want to.
AF -- NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO BE MAKING DECISIONS!!!! ESPECIALLY ABOUT YOUR MILITARY CAREER!!! TRUST ME!!!! I MADE THAT MISTAKE!!!! I RESIGNED MY COMMISSION FOR W, AND LOOK WHERE IT GOT ME!!!!
Sorry about broadcasting over the Big Mouth, but this is serious Shi'ite. The economy is bad. We don't know if the president's plan is going to work or not. You're in distress. You're hurting. Hunker down in that career field like a tick. Earn the money. Build the retirement. HAVE THE HEALTH CARE!
If it's that bad, do a Pavlov experiment on yourself. Rig up a little generator, wire yourself up, and every time you think of her give yourself some voltage. You'll stop after while!
I appreciate it but I've already been in 20+. I know it's a bad time to make decisions but if I can find a job and move I think the space will provide the closure I need and I can heal quicker. I mean, it looks like she is going through with this. I know anything is possible but it is so painful to see her and hear her. I drove by her work to go off base and there she is getting into her car going to lunch with some dude from her work. ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
HEY!! Go post on my thread and quit thinking about yourself!!
lmao.
i really really promise you that sooner or later she is gonna come out of the fog and realize the carnage around her and say, "What have I done?" but it takes time to get to that point. She hasn't missed you yet.
Can you get it to where she only sees your D every other weekend? And then, only if your D wants to? If you can quit letting her come over, have her pick up or mysteriously deliver the rest of her things, then just let her sit in her quietness, silence, and aloneness and stew.
I really believe it works. Broken Open. I promise. Get it on the way home. It's light blue. Walmart.
Melissa
How can you say that? I was gone for like almost 8 months. Well, she did see me or hear from me everyday. We haven't worked out anything regarding my daughter. She barely calls during the week and when she does, only talks to D13 maybe 7-8 min max. Right now, my D doesn't want to see her or do anything and I know my wife senses that. The problem is, I think she believes that I've put my D up to this behavior and that is simply not the case.
And I am thinking too much. I freaking out about a bunch of stuff that I don't have to think about right now. The primary one is the wife--why she's doing this, why she doesn't love me anymore, why she doesn't care, why won't she try, why is she such a bitch? The next thing, a job elsewhere--it's like a fruitless search--I think I may be rating myself too high and need to look at jobs at a lower level or maybe hire a headhunter--something.
The next thing--am I ever going to find someone else? How? Where? How long from now? What to do with her? I've been out of the game for so long, how will I do? etc.
I keep going back to the comments she made this weekend too. I should have left in 1995. I left you more than a month ago. Quit being a baby and get over it.
Ok, breather--I've got a job. I don't have to retire for 4 more years at my current rank. Yes, it may be difficult being a single Dad but at least I will be able to pay the bills.
As far as the wife is concerned, Mel, I think you are right--she has to miss me and I don't think she really does at this point. Maybe if I stop acting friendly with her she will miss me? I honestly think she will miss my daughter more though. I asked the wife if she talked w/ SS yet. She said yes for a couple of min. I said good, he called me and we talked for about 10 min--she was surprised.
As far as meeting someone, I don't want to be alone. I need someone. I just wish it was my wife. We were supposed to go to Hawaii together when I got back. She was supposed to spend time with me at home. I wanted to go to lunch with her. I wanted to go to dinner with her. I wanted to hold her. I wanted to talk to her. I wanted to hold her hand in the mall. So many things, soooo painful--it's almost like I've regressed today.
My D has gymnastics tonight so I'll be running around a little bit and that will make the night go faster.
I wonder what she's thinking, if she's thinking about us, if she hates me, etc.
I wish I could just make it go away, all of it...
Ignore all that trash talk, man. Mine said the same thing -- screamed it, in fact: I should have left your a** ten years ago!
Okay. So Dr Hemlock goes into his magic treasure box and pulls out all the cards and notes from 1998. Huh, whaddaya know? Love, love, love, and more love.
Don't believe it, dude.
If you crack, she wins; if you lose it, she wins; if you falter, she wins. Can you go over to another shift so you don't have to drive past her place? Is there another exit to the base, even if it's the long way around? Can you get some hot young Airwoman from your department to ride around with you, pretending to laugh, while you drive circles around W's building?
Ignore all that trash talk, man. Mine said the same thing -- screamed it, in fact: I should have left your a** ten years ago!
Okay. So Dr Hemlock goes into his magic treasure box and pulls out all the cards and notes from 1998. Huh, whaddaya know? Love, love, love, and more love.
Don't believe it, dude.
It's standard affair "script." My wife gave me the same line: "I haven't been happy for YEARS." This was in May 2007. So I pulled out our anniversary card from
April, 2007, and our Valentine's Day card from
February, 2007, and pointed out to her not only the loving sentiments of the Hallmark copywriters, but of her long, handwritten notes inside of the cards themselves. "I love you very much . . ." "I'm lucky to have you for a husband . . . " etc.
Not exactly great DBing, but I asked her one day, in my best Perry Mason cross-examination,
"So were you lying then, or are you lying now?" 
She just stared at me as if I'd short-circuited her motherboard.
Puppy
You know you may have something there and I have asked her about all the lies, especially those in Iraq. Something that struck me as odd in quite a few of those cards was the phrase, "Please don't leave me" which makes me wonder if she was thinking about leaving. You know the old saying about if someone's accusing you of cheating then maybe there the one cheating. Apply it this way, please don't leave me but I'm thinking about it, huh, huh?
Can you get some hot young Airwoman from your department to ride around with you, pretending to laugh, while you drive circles around W's building?
GOOD STUFF!!!--maybe after my divorce, I drive a vette.
Yes, I probably could but she would probably like that. And yes, I could go around the long way, and yes I could do a lot of things differently but I have just as much right if not more to be here than she does.
Anyway, I have a meeting w/ a lawyer on Thursday--I know I have to protect myself and my daughter. This just sucks though. So many negative thoughts I can't shake. I'm trying, I really am.
Great, she called and I tried to ignore but she called again. She wants to come over and get some more of her stuff. She asked to speak to D. After she hung up D says wife asks if she is mad still. Yes, she says. Still?? the wife asks. She asked what do you want me to do? My D says you'll have to give it time. Fair answer I thought. So wonderful I get to see her. Hope she doesn't try to push my buttons--dammit this is so freaking painful. WHY THE CRAP IS SHE DOING THIS TO ME AND MY DAUGHTER???
She doesn't see it as giving you guys crap; she's living her "life" and she doesn't understand why everyone doesn't want her to be happy. After all, it's all about her.
AFWAW,
go somewhere while she is getting her stuff. upstairs in the bathroom taking a grand pooh, i don't care, but let her get her stuff and get out with minimal contact. or just sit in front of the tv and watch it. or cook supper with your daughter. i hope the kitchen is too small for the three of you. take a bath. mow the yard. run to the store and leave your D there. really, not a great idea, but is an option. but don't be available to converse with her while she is there. she draws you in with innocent enough talk. then she asks if you are okay. you are honest. then she gets pissy. she comes there wanting to go off on you and prods you into sending her off. it's crazy, but it's what it is. don't be there to bite.
melissa
Ok, so weird again. She came over while I was cooking dinner. She says hello to my daughter for a bit and then asks me if I mind if she sits down in the living room for a bit. She asks me what stage of this I'm in. I said what do you mean? She said are you in the anger stage yet? I said, I'm not sure. Silence for a while then she says I'm sorry about all this. I wish I could go back and change a lot of things. I just listened and didn't say anything. My meal was ready at the point, so I offered her some and she declined. While my D and I ate in the kitchen she laid down and went to sleep on the couch? I tried to watch tv for a bit and then went and told me D to get ready for bed w/ the wife still asleep on the couch. My D says to me, I want her to go, she doesn't live here anymore! I honestly didn't know what to do. So I left her alone and went to bed. Was I uncomfortable? yes Am I hoping she misses being home? yes Did she get any of her things? no
So, when I got up this morning, she was gone-she left out the back door. I'm not going to try to fool myself into believing that she misses me but I am hoping. I think this visit had more to do with my daughter. My question is, if she cared so much then why didn't she spend time w/ D while I was gone? And why the freak, doesnt' she care about me anymore?
I think I did ok all things considered. I didn't get into a relationship talk with her and I didn't directly talk to her about what I was feeling. I didn't tell her directly but I think she got the vibe that I wasn't going to be friendly with her even though I was polite. This really sucks and was so hard for me as she was my best friend in the whole wide world and I miss her sooo bad
Hey AF -- I'm really sorry to read about this continuing come-here/go-away with your W. It must be like living in Crazytown. My sitch is bad emotionally, but I am more than happy to give W all the credit in the world for trying to make it be decent in the house. We talk like normal people; we laugh at the same jokes we always did. She just wants X and I want Y. But you, my brother? My heart is out to you.
A buddy of mine just got the bomb. Misery loves company, I suppose. I immediately referred him to this site and to DB and DR, but he was having none of it. I guess he'll find his way here soon enough. Or not. He's got to do his own thing.
I mention him, though, because his sitch is A LOT like yours -- only Navy, not AF. And his WAW is doing much the same stuff yours is. But Buddy's got good instincts. His WAW asked him "what stage are you in" -- referring to the traditional stages of grieving (Kubler-Ross) -- and he simply replied "The stage where if you want me to get used to this you're going to have to leave me alone."
Seems to have worked! Now I don't know if he "really" intends to get used to it or not -- like I said, he wasn't all that interested-sounding in DB and MWD -- but he's surely interested in her shutting the hell up for a while!
So, when I got up this morning, she was gone-she left out the back door. I'm not going to try to fool myself into believing that she misses me but I am hoping. I think this visit had more to do with my daughter.
I disagree. I think this visit had more to do with HERSELF. She was coming over to do the ol' "make sure everyone's okay with my terrible choices" thing.
You handled it very well, btw.
Your wife seems terribly anxious to make sure "everyone's OK," and that no one's "still upset" with her. I think you're going to have to deliver a TRUTH DART to her the next time she says/does this.
"No, we're not OK. We'll SURVIVE, but we're not OK. I have lost my wife and our daughter has lost the family she knew, and she's extremely confused and upset with you right now. And frankly, I find it incredibly selfish that you want to make sure we're "all OK" with your destructive choices. We'll get thru this, in some ways stronger than before, but please stop popping in to see if everyone's OK, just to make YOU feel better about yourself. It's transparent as hell, and (daughter's first name) doesn't need that right now."
Puppy
Ok, I'm glad to hear that you think I did ok. I did feel better this morning because I refused to let her suck me into an emotional arguement. I mean, she knows how I feel already and what I want and she has told me she doesn't care, so why does she persist w/ the questions that she asks. And why does she think for some reason that my daughter is not old enough to experience her own feelings?
While I'm still emotional and still very much want her to come home, at this point, if I was to asked, I would probably file today. I haven't given up but I'm sick and tired of my emotions being played with. This woman was my best friend, my confidant, my lover and she has betrayed me and thrown me away like a piece of garbage. To treat someone like this is purely evil. Like you said Puppy, if she had discussed with me how she felt when I got home, been willing to work on it and then didn't feel like she could do it, I would probably be a lot more receptive to the whole situation. And that's just my emotions. What she has done to my daughter and her expectations of what my daughter should be feeling are beyond me.
All right, halfway through the day and I'm having a little easier time with the emotions. Probably in the anger phase but not as angry as you would think. Still confused about the visit last night. Wish I could read her mind. I hate to say it but it would probably give me pleasure if I knew she was thinking about what she's doing and trying to rationalize it her mind. I hope she thinks about nothing else for years. It finally has hit me how mean and evil this person is with the way she went about this and how she expects me to accept it and get over it so quickly. I have certainly learned a lot about myself over this past month and am constantly thinking back to times we've spent together and wondering what was wrong with that time. I think it's about time to establish and vocalize some boundries with the wife. Any suggestions as to what they could be?
First boundary you set is for yourself. Repeat after me, I will not waste my energy or time worrying about what my W is thinking or feeling. If I really want to know I will ask. I do not control nor am I responsible for her feelings ot thoughts. I am responsible for my own actions and thoughts.
Say it until you believe it.
Cheers
Coach,
Well put. That would be a great first step and would make me a lot more productive at this point. I will repeat that one quite a bit and hopefully with time it will be true. Thanks very much!
Crap, she's on her way over again. Hopefully she'll actually get her stuff tonight instead of sleeping on the couch? My daughter is really antagonized from her conversation with the wife on the phone. Apparently the wife wants to help her with something and my daughter stated she doesn't want her help with anything at this point. Oh well.
OMG!!!!!She said something smart ass to me on the way out the door and I called her a coward! Next thing you know we were having a heart to heart and she said she still loves me and doesn't want a divorce! She said she just needs some time. Holy cow! She said she knows she's being selfish and she regrets leaving me the day after I got back and regrets so manny things and she still loves me! OMG!!! Now I'm trying not to get overly anxious cause I don't wanna crowd her and make her run.
I need some help here folks. I don't want to lose the love of my life, please help me!!!! I'm trying not to get too excitied but it is soooo hard right now. God, I miss her!
BREATH AF!!!!
Sheesh, you are gonna hyperventilate! DO NOT CALL HER! Let her initiate any contact that the two of you have right now.
You can be excited for yourself, but do not show it to her. think about a new puppy--they get to excited, they pee on the floor, and then they get their nose rubbed in it. Do not have an accident and get your nose rubbed into your screw-up. Keep calm and stay the course.
BTW--congrats on the breakthrough!!!
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Breath in, Breath out.
Breath in, Breath out...
First, Congratulations - something is working. Probably when you backed off and then stood up to her.
Expect her to run next. That's the roller coaster.
Plan to give her space for a while.
C
Ok, ok, I've calmed down some but I can't sleep. I can't think straight. All that has happened in the last month is coming at me in a rush. I should be angry but I'm not. I still want her to come home. I'm not calling her, I'm not pushing, there is still the possibility that this won't work, I know. I'm trying to stay positive, I really am, either way. So, we are going out as a family to an American idol thing tomorrow night. I need to put my best foot forward as a man. I started reading no more mr nice guy today and wow, I exhibit a lot of the traits in it. I'm so disappointed in the way I've been and acted over the years. Things I've considered important that were just not that big a deal. Ok, day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute. I can do this either way. I'm still gonna keep posting, she still loves me and I need to keep working on me. Overall a good night with a humungous step in the right direction!
Okay.
I just want to remind you that you have a D13 riding this roller coaster with you. Please please please please please PLEASE make sure that it is one way or the other before talking to your daughter about the new development. One night out does not a marriage make. I am not trying to bring you down, I'm just saying. It goes back and forth for awhile. It gets better, it gets worse. It is life. I think your daughter takes her cues from you. When you are happy, life is good. But she also sees that if you are happy then things must be good with the wife, and then she starts thinking ya'll will get back together. Two days later, you are down, and she knows a divorce is around the corner. Your daughter has her own hormones, she certainly doesn't need the ride ya'll are taking her on!
Just try to be indifferent for her sake. Keep everything very low-key, very nonchalant, very...doesn't matter what she does cause you are going to be fine.
Congrats.
Melissa
Mel,
You are right! She did see and she was pissed! I said what's wrong and she said I don't want her to come back? Oh no! I asked her why? She said because I never have any fun when you two are together? OMG!!! I told her that was something we would have to work on if it happened. I promised her either way that I would take care of her. You are so right, I need to be indifferent. I haven't been doing a good job with my daughter. I have been way too emotional about the whole thing but I am emotional. I was so looking forward to you posting tonight as you know exactly what to say. This isn't just about the wife and I, my daughter is in it as well. Thanks Mel.
Ok,
didn't get much sleep last night. I need to settle down and make sure I don't push her away by doing the wrong thing. My daughter was in a better mood this morning so hopefully she'll be ok. I'll keep an eye on her. I don't know what to think about last nights interaction. I can only hope that it's positive and hope that the wife really means what she says. We'll see.
I hope she means what she says, too.
But there is a ways to go before you should let her move back in with ya'll. Obviously, the way things were working, wasn't working. Ya'll will have to agree to make those changes, then live separately having made those changes, and then discuss becoming a family again and how it is going to be before I think you can let her move back in. Otherwise, you have the same old marriage, and the same old marriage didn't work before...it would be crazy to do the same thing again. These are things, that when she decides she wants to work on the marriage, you need to talk about. That things can't go back the way they were. Period. You can't get mad and kick her out of the car anymore, no matter what she says, as much as you may want.
There's just a certain level of trust there that the person you married, no matter how mad they are at you, still loves you and is not gonna leave you on the side of the road. I know you are not that person anymore. She does not. It was an isolated incident, yes. I can't go back to the nights upon nights of drinking and I shouldn't have to. She should be able to trust that you love her and won't leave her no matter how pissed off you are or she is. I think maybe she felt a little bit abandoned? not sure about that. maybe just always questioning if you always loved her or not. as we all do.
Broken Open, the book, I'll say it again. We all have to be on this journey. We are going to be better people for this experience. "Take the evil in you and rechristen it into what is best in you" I made a poor choice. But I am a better person now for having made a mistake. I hate the mistake. But I don't hate who I am now. I live more...truthfully. I say thank you now. I take the time and I am truly THANKFUL for every bit of kindness people show me.
Have a good day. I'm happy for you!
Melissa
I hope she means it too. And you're right, there is work to do before she could move back in. On top of that, I know she's not ready. She admitted last night that she had been far from perfect as well. She is not trying to pin everything on me. The kicking out of the car thing happened in the 90s and I have never even contemplated anything like that again.
What's that saying that I keep seeing on this board?
I'D RATHER BE MARRIED THAN RIGHT!!!
That's where I am at this point. Do I have issues to work on? You bet. Does she? Absolutely. The rest can be worked out slowly as not to overwhelm her and me for that matter. I love this woman and don't want to lose her. I know in my heart I want to spend the rest of my life with her. After 15 years of my time and love, how could I not at this point? Anything else would be absolutely insane! So, I need all the help I can get to not push her further away than she already is. I am currently reading No More Mr Nice Guy and have a lot more books that I have to read and will read to continue my growth.
AF,
I'd strongly suggest some mutual transparency and some individual boundary-setting be communicated between the two of you. You know what they say about "the definition of stupidity" -- "doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result."
What would be the two or three boundaries of personal integrity YOU would want to lay out moving forward? What would be hers?
I think the "NMMNG" book is excellent. I'd also suggest the two of you go thru the book "His Needs, Her Needs" by Harley, and perhaps do the exercises together.
Puppy
Puppy,
What do you mean by mutual transparency? And I know what you mean about repeating history--I don't intend to do that. I'm not sure about the boundaries question either. Would you care to make some suggestions?
Thanks,
John
Mutual transparency would involve the sharing of daily schedules, open e-mail accounts (each have each other's passwords), financial info -- EVERYTHING. Marriages can't thrive on secrets, and each of you should be completely transparent with each other.
Boundaries are intensely personal, and only YOU know what they are. These are the "dealbreakers" -- the things you simply cannot abide lest they violate your own personal integrity. They are about YOU, not about HER (that would be "controlling").
Puppy
Just catching up after being away for a few days:
AFWAW, I'm so happy for your current breakthrough! That is just awesome! As Mel points out, though, and it does bear repeating, the roller coaster is still in motion. Keep your expectations low, and expect that there will be some shifting in her position, too. Until the two of you are at home and dedicated to piecing, it is all just words (albeit very encouraging words!)
There is still work to do, both on yourself, your W, and for your D, but It sounds like you have the right mental attitude about all this. We are pulling for you!
You already read N.U.T.s, right?
Maybe re-read the first section. Those unalterable terms are your boundaries. I agree, a few new ones might be in order, especially with regards to your daughter, and protecting her from your W's indecision.
Keep us posted and don't do anything rash. The more you post about things you are deciding on, the more objective feedback you can get.
Ready yourself emotionally for a potential pulling away for starters. You don't want to overreact to her testing you.
Please do keep working on yourself no matter what happens.
Puppy, Portland, Spellfire,
Thanks! I am going to take this as slowly as possible as not to make her run away again. I'm still not going to talk about the relationship until she is ready. I'm going to have a PMA now and mean it. This glimmer of hope is huge for me. I can actually think straight for once. Will it be tough to continue? You bet. I miss her very much and want her home now. Is that going to happen? Probably not today. But hey, it may take a few months. We'll see. As far as the boundries are concerned, I will reread N.U.T.S. and start writing stuff down now so when the relationship talks come, I will be prepared. And I know, I still have a ton of work to do on me. I'm going to the gym this afternoon. I think I would be more of a mess if I didn't. I'm still way too excited though and way too anxious. It does feel much better though than what I was feeling yesterday. I hope and pray she continues to think this way towards a reconciliation. Keep praying for me please!
Ok, not exactly the night I hoped for. My wife only bought two tickets to the show we were supposed to go to and didn't realize it till we were in the car. She said, you and D go. She said I'm so disappointed and so sorry. Ok, I can see where it was an honest mistake. She gave me a couple of kisses so I felt a little better. Talked to her on the phone on the way and found out she is off Friday and so am I. She said why don't we get together and have lunch and see a movie. Ok, sounds good and she's the one suggesting it. Sounds great in fact because I want to spend time with her. Went to the show and D enjoyed it and I did a little too. Had my D call the wife on the way home to tell her how the show was and the wife wanted to talk to me too--that's good. So, I am hoping that the wife just needs her space for a little while and then will make her way home. Told my D to get ready for bed and she comes out of her room crying just a little while ago. I said, what's wrong? She said you know--I asked her if she wanted mommy to come home? She said yes. That's sad. I really hope my wife gets through this quick and brings her butt home as my D and I miss her very much and need her company. I think my wife is missing us as well. I just hope it's more than I think.
I am in no way advising pushing at all. If your daughter can hold back a little more, it might be beneficial. But. With that said. Nothing breaks a mother's heart like her baby crying cause she's hurt.
In my fog, my son crying would not have moved me. I love him dearly. But he is older and logical. The baby (d4) didn't cry for me. I would have only cried and still left. Not sure about that one. But once the fog lifted...I dunno. I think my crying 13 year old daughter might would have turned me around. I don't know about that. She just wanted everyone to be okay with everything she did (because then she could do it and not feel guilty). But, when neither of you complied, she maybe started to have second thoughts.
Dunno.
Keeping my figners crossed for you. Slow and steady wins the race.
Melissa
Mel,
You are my #1 girl on this board and #3 off this board--wife and D come first, sorry
Hey, I knew D was going to feel some pain and the wife didn't believe it was going to be so. When I talked to the wife earlier on the phone she was laughing about what D had said. I KNOW SHE MISSES HER--the question is, does she miss me? I hope so. I know it hurts my wife's heart that D is mad at her and not talking to her a lot. I am looking forward to Friday and date with the wife. Oh, I miss her so and will do my best to make sure she wants to come home. OH, please, please, please come home!
Well, she just called. I didn't think she was going to and had almost given up. We talked for a little while about our days and then she started with the you deserve a good wife. I said I'm not interested in another wife. She said I know, if I saw you with another woman I would probably die. Ok, that's good, at least she would be jealous. I like that. She told me a lot about her apartment and how sparse it is and how she is enjoying the simple life and being bored. I wonder how long it's going to be before she wants to come home. I hope not long. I really miss having her here. I'm so lonely without her. We talked about where we are going tomorrow also. I am so glad she suggested this date. I hope that we have a good time and that she feels inclined to come home! Hope every one is having a good night.
More script..."you deserve better, yada yada yada..." I got the same crap. Which it's true; but it's babble designed to make them feel better about what they're doing. At least, that's how I interpreted it when my W said it.
Good luck on your date. Keep it light and fun. No R talks. Act like she's someone you want to date; but haven't developed a relationship with just yet.
Good tip, I was wondering how to act on the date. I'm actually pretty nervous. I've been married to her for 15+ years and I don't know what to do! LOL! Any more tips? Besides the obvious of opening doors, etc.
I can only reiterate that you must treat her like an acquaintenance at this point. Somehow, you have to will yourself to have fun and forget what's going on between the two of you right now.
I'd try to do something that you've never done before. You don't want to do something that reminds you of history, ya know?
I would recommend doing the opposite of whatever it was that you would have done before!
Another thing; don't sweat it so much. The last thing you want to do is overthink it and come across as false, or forced. Just try to relax and act "as if" this was just another night out, even though inside you will be hanging on every word, and trying to interpret every look. (Try not too, though!)
I've crossing all my fingers for you!
AFWAW - I have been reading along for quite awhile.
I feel like I would be the exact same way you are if/when I get this kind of response. From another who would be thrilled, CHILL OUT!! Maybe it's good that you can post here to get some of the excitement out! I swear I can see your tail wagging chaotically! LOL
The very best of luck to you.
Calm down. Dress hot. Maybe do something that doesn't involve a lot of talking... more just "being" together at first...
We're with ya!
Hey.
Definitely do something ya'll haven't done before.
Then I have to ask this. Are you "keeping up with the Jones'" kind of guy? And is she "NOT keeping up with the Jones'" kind of girl?
I am discovering how narcissistic and self-righteous my husband is. I will post more tonight or tomorrow. But it's very NOT attractive and the further we go, the more I am NOT sure I want to stay married. And while some things do change, narcissism DOES not because they NEVER see that THEY do anything wrong.
So anyway. Just asking because of a few things you have said.
Have fun tonight if I don't talk to you before then!
Melissa
Mel,
We both were the keeping up with the Joneses type of people but that is the furthest thing from my mind now and she doens't seem to be that way either now. As far as my being narcissistic and self-righteous well, I can honestly say that isn't me. If anything, I don't think I'm good enough for anyone hence the reason for reading No More Mr Nice Guy and Hold on to Your N.U.T.S. I have always been too critical on myself and am learning that I don't have to be just so all the time. It was very stressful.
The wife and I are going out to a movie and a lunch date. This is way different as we didn't do this very often. Matter of fact, I's say maybe once a year we would go out without the kid(s). Wow, that's pretty sad now that I think about it. UGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!
AFWAW, Going on a date is great news. It's one of the reasons I knew I had a shot is when my W wanted to "date" me. So think thru this, plan and execute. Have three different conversation starters planned that have nothing to do with your kids or R. Open ended questions about something important to her.
How will you get there?
What will you wear?
Who will pay?
Exit strategy? (I was consistently botching this)
Workout before you go to release some stress. Realise it's just one date. Just listen to her and validate. Be calm and confident. You can handle it.
Cheers
Coach
Ok, the date went well but I still am getting the vibe that she still wants to be alone and maybe wants me in limited doses. Nice lunch, nice movie, we talked a lot, held hands, kissed and hugged all the nice things but something just isn't right yet. I kept getting that vibe. That coupled with a few comments she made about the future and the past lead me to believe that she is struggling with what to do. She's still holding on to negative stuff from the past. Now I didn't argue with her one time--I just listened and validated, that's it. I think I did ok but she can see how much I love her and want her to come back. I know she can see it--it's like it exudes out of my body. I thought I sensed she was irrated towards the end of our date but she started complaining about her tooth and that she's getting a root canal next week, so I didn't annoy her hopefully. I just tried to have a pleasent time and did for the most part. I would be have a super terrific time if she would move her butt back home. Oh, she smelled so good and looked so good. How come I didn't recognize and say those things before? I'm such a fool. As much as I enjoyed the date, it is quite painful for me to see my wife walk out the door and go back to her apartment. I know, I know, baby steps and patience. UGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Patience patience, give it time, keep looking at yourself, not her.
Some people here would give their right arm to be at the stage you are at.
As my MIL says, "Zeit, Zeit, und mehr Zeit" (Time, time, and more time). Don't get frustrated with the slow pace of things! You really are in a great position. SF is right; I personally would give BOTH my arms to be at the same point in my sitch with my W!
Gotta agree with spell and Portland. Heck, I haven't even seen my DH for 6.5 months! I can't wait for that stupid boat to get back!
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
I know everyone is hurting and I know that all things considered I could be a lot worse off than I am right now. I thank you all for your support and hope and pray that your relationships get to the point that you want them. I am merely looking for a place to vent and get feedback. I love my wife dearly and long for the day that she comes home. I realize that may not happen but I will keep hoping and DBing until such a time that she either comes home or decides she would rather be by herself. I will continue to look at myself and ways I can improve on physically, mentally and spiritually. Hope everyone is having a good weekend.
The wife had my daughter last night and dropped her off this morning so could take her to her first counseling session. I asked the wife if she had a good time and she said she had a good time all day yesterday! Wow! That's great, she must have enjoyed our date. She even advanced toward me for a hug and kiss and held me for a while commenting about how good I smelled(yes, I read other posts and always wear cologne around her--she seems to comment on it every time). I said well, have a good rest of the day and she said call me later if you feel like it? Ok, hmmmmm, I want to call but don't want to appear overanxious? Any thoughts, suggestions????
Patience patience, give it time, keep looking at yourself, not her.
Some people here would give their right arm to be at the stage you are at.
I would give more than that. The fact that she is willing to date and will kiss and hug probably means that she still has feelings in there and is trying. My W has no feelings for me, also says that she realized she was never that in love or into me, and therefore sees no reason to try to rekindle something that was wrong in the first place.
The wife had my daughter last night and dropped her off this morning so could take her to her first counseling session. I asked the wife if she had a good time and she said she had a good time all day yesterday! Wow! That's great, she must have enjoyed our date. She even advanced toward me for a hug and kiss and held me for a while commenting about how good I smelled(yes, I read other posts and always wear cologne around her--she seems to comment on it every time). I said well, have a good rest of the day and she said call me later if you feel like it? Ok, hmmmmm, I want to call but don't want to appear overanxious? Any thoughts, suggestions????
I'm very happy for you. I'm actually tearing up a bit here thnking how good you must be feeling. And if it were me....I'd call. It sounds like an invitation for you to call.
I would call, but I would not stay on the phone long. Let her keep wanting more.
Proud of you and happy for you, bub.
Melissa
Ok, just got off the phone. Kept it light and asked how her day was. She said good and talked about what a good time she had on our date yesterday and like how we didn't argue any. She complimented me on how my daughter minded me and said we were a good match--yes I read into that that's she's trying to justify staying away for now at least--crap! Anyway, I didn't stay on long and I ended the call. I still am very wary. I don't know how long this will go on for. I hope not too long. I really miss her and want her to come home--duh! Like everyone keeps saying, patience! I know, I know. I'll keep praying and trying to be patient.
Yep, call, but call 5-10 minutes before you have to leave or do something, so you can be honest about it.
Couldn't sleep much last night as I kept thinking about the wife. Kept going over in my mind interactions on the date and from the phone call. A couple of things stuck in my mind that lead me to believe she is still struggling with what to do. During our phone call, I had mentioned that my D and I had put down some mulch and she commented that she would have loved for me to help her put some down in the previous years? Ok, I can remember one year when she did the landscaping and the rest of the years I helped. That really doesn't matter. What matters is she's still looking at negative stuff from our past and using it to support what she is doing. I didn't argue with her, I just said I know when she mentioned it. I really hope she can get past this negative stuff from the past and that she doesn't enjoy living alone. I really, really am nervous about that. She has made numerous comments about how simple things are with regard to living alone. Laundry, cooking, cleaning are all aparently a snap. That coupled with the ability to watch tv at 2am if you want to are also a plus for her?
I really hope that she can get past this stage in her life fairly quickly and decides to come home. This is really tearing me up. I have never wanted something more or been more anxious in my life. The days are getting a little easier but I still think about her probably 95% of my day so I'm not as productive as I want to be. Anyway, keep your fingers crossed for me and keep me in your prayers, please!
She is thinking about you and the R, you can be assured of that. It is still really early in her independent phase and she is trying to get a feel for what it is like. Of course she is going to mention the positives: she wants you to believe that everything is roses with what she is doing. In much the same way you are telling her about the stuff you are doing, too.
Think about it this way: if one of her strongest positives for the separation is that she can watch TV at 2am unhindered, then she is really reaching for positives!
My prayers are with ya man, keep doing what you are doing.
Just got a phone call from the wife. Not a good one in my book. She talked about cleaning her place and how she just ordered a bedroom set for my daughter. We started talking about the relationship and she said I have to honest, at this point I don't want to come back. Oh dear God, why can this woman not make up her mind? If she is ordering a bedroom set for my daughter that seems like she's digging in for a while. This hurts so bad. Stupid me, I asked why she wouldn't come home and give it a try. I am so miserable I just don't know what to do. How do people get through this? This is so freaking painful, I just don't know what to do now. Dammit!!!!!!! Why can't I control these emotions? Why does she keep changing her mind? Why won't she come home? I cannot be this woman's friend and pretend like this.
My brother, I feel for you. It's called a roller-coaster for a very good reason, and it hurts like the dickens when you've had a string of good days and good outcomes, and then you get the bad day, or the backslide. It really does take time, and in most cases I've read about, it can take a long time. The problems in you M didn't pop up overnight, and they won't go away overnight, either.
I know you've had some very good days lately, and had some very promising events, but don't give up on your DB principles! You need to concentrate on yourself and your D right now, no matter what happens with your W. You were making some great strides in that direction, remember?
Lay off of the R talks. When she wants to talk to you, just listen and validate. Keep up the 180s and GAL activities: they will make you feel better.
I know how painful it is to watch the woman you love build an independent life away from you. Listening to them talk about the bedroom sets, the kitchen sets, getting cable and internet hooked up at the apartment, every one of those things seems so permanent and so painful to the LBS. I'm definitely in your shoes right now, too.
Strength. Detach and GAL. Be strong for your D.
Thanks very much. I don't know how long I can put up with this yo-yo attitude though. I was getting better but caught myself backsliding. This house seems so empty without her. One of the things I did recognize today is that she seems to want to tell me about her day but doesn't want the whole package. I don't want to give her just part. Do I cut her off? Or do I let her keep yanking me around? I know there's a fine line in there somewhere, I just don't know where it is and how long I can put up with this. It's too damn confusing and too damn frustrating especially when there seems to be no one else. This woman just wants to be alone. Detachment, detachment, detachment. ARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
Have you tried going dark?
It might help you and in the process, make her wonder.
dw
My W has been on her own since last September; and it was only last month that she started mentioning the positive things about our M. So patience is the key.
All the advice posted above will help see you through. Hang in there.
I would but for my daughter. I just wish she would make up her mind. It's just so up and down. I did kind of make myself not available and that led to our groundbreaking moment of I still love and I don't want a divorce and our subsequent date, etc to today's I don't want to come home at this point. So, I guess to keep my heart from getting broken again and again and to avoid riding the roller coaster maybe I should be unavailable to her and just let me daughter answer the phone from now on. I know I'll eventually have to talk with her, it's just so damn infuriating that she is doing this with the intention of being alone but she still wants to call me and give me the low down on her days to include the noisy neighbors(duh, you moved from a house to an apartment, you're going to have noisy people right next to you), dogs barking and crying to the positives of how easy it is to clean. I am not a yo-yo yet I keep letting myself become one. So, I will do my best to try to go dark--maybe that will work. At the very least, if I'm not exposed to her then I won't have another emotional breakdown.
Do I cut her off? Or do I let her keep yanking me around? I know there's a fine line in there somewhere, I just don't know where it is and how long I can put up with this. It's too damn confusing and too damn frustrating especially when there seems to be no one else.
I'm right there with you AF, up ad down on the roller coaster. I start to think that it's becoming a battle of wills, and my W is going back and forth because she just doesn't want to be the one to call it quits, and is passive-aggressively hoping that I will get fed up with it all and throw in the towel. But I remain 100% committed to my vows and will not do that, so I think it frustrates her, causes her to be even more distant and cruel. However it turns out, I will always be able to tell my kids that I NEVER gave up on our family.
She just called and said I'm about 6 minutes out, can I come over and look at the yard. Sure I said. She comes in and acts like nothing is wrong. Talks with my daughter and basically scolds her for not calling and then asks is she'll call her tomorrow as she's tired of not getting any calls. Whatever!!! She then wanted to show me and my daughter the bedroom set she got her--ok, I overreacted before, it wasn't that expensive. She stayed for about maybe 8 minutes and kissed my daughter goodbye and then kissed me on my head goodbye. If she wants to be alone, she sure doesn't act like it. So what can I asertain from this visit? I don't know exactly. Any thoughts on the matter?
Oh, in case you were wondering, I kept my answers short to questions she asked, I didn't look at her directly but yet I tried to be cordial. I don't know if I pulled it off but I was going for that I don't care whatever happens happens kind of attitude. Truthfully, I'm still upset from our phone conversation earlier and a little tired from yard work. So some of that probably carried over to my attitude. We'll see...
AF,
You can't ascertain anything, other than she's fogged out and maybe confused. Stop trying to analyze her, and focus on YOU instead.
Puppy
Sounds to me like she is really trying to push your buttons, and to some extent is succeeding.
I don't know if you've been following Dr. Hemlock's sitch, but he has a great metaphor he uses, it's what the Penguins say from the movie Madagasgar.
"Just smile and wave boys, smile and wave".
Or as in the old commercial "Never let them see you sweat".
Be strong, be confident, let her push buttons all she wants, just smile and wave
AF---
I used to see this equation on the boards and it may be a good rule of thumb for you. Figure one month of separation for every year married. Anything less than that consider a gift from God.
I know it seems impossible, but I am already down to two months shy of that number. DH is not even thinking about coming home yet, as far as I know. In addition, I have to deal with an OP. At least as far as you know, that is not muddying up your equation.
Living God's blessings with grace and dignity~
SMW
Holy cow!!! I'm not waiting 15 months! Hell, I'm not waiting 1 year! I have given myself 6 months. By that time I will have moved on or she will have to make a decision. I don't intend to live like a monk waiting for her to make a decision. If you add up the time I was in Iraq and training before that then you are looking at 14 months of time seperated. That's more than enough. If this is what she wants then she needs to make up her mind. Six months, then s&#@ or get off the pot. I'll be 40 this year and I hear that 40 is the new 30. I'm sure there are plenty of other fish in the sea. Is that what I want at this point? A BIG FAT NO!!! So, as Puppy put it so very eloquently, I will work on myself and stop trying to figure out the wife. I do have to protect myself emotionally though as apparently I thought this past week was a major breakthrough and it turned out not to be the case. Whew, that's a long time to be seperated--don't know that I could do it.
AFWAW,
Puppy is right. You can't detach from the sitch if you're constantly trying to decipher what she means about every little thing she says. You'll never get YOURSELF better continuing those behaviors.
The best thing you can do at this point is to let her have what she wants. She wants space. Let her have "her" space. You take your space and make your life into something. Take care of your D and find something you enjoy doing. The best thing I ever did for myself was quit worrying about what my W was doing. I concentrated on raising my S and D. I got back into church. I started going out with friends. I hooked up with old friends, whom I haven't talked to in years. Once I got myself a life away from the W; I got better.
Do I still want my M? I don't know. Do I still want my family? Hell yes. I've given it over to God and I still practice my DB'ing. But I don't analyze her every comment and action. She left in Sept. and in Feb. she started making comments about coming back. She hasn't made any forthright effort; but those comments took a while to surface.
Before she left, we had two-and-a-half years of hell. Alcoholism, affairs, suicide attempt, rehab, more affairs, counseling, weekend to remember, an awakening of our marriage, a move to her hometown, more affairs, more drinking, and now a separation. So I've been trying for over 3 years now. Granted, I've only been DB'ing since last August. But my point it that patience is a must if you want to see this through. Only you can determine when you're done. My W and I have a settlement agreement; neither one of us has made the move to file it. What does that say? Confusion still reigns.
I believe your W is just as confused as you are. What does that mean? I don't know. You know, my W is confused as well. But I don't care so much; I'm living my life with the back door cracked. I ain't gonna open it; it's up to her to push the door open. If she does, then we'll discuss what "rooms" she can access.
Be friendly with her; but you do not need to be her BFF. If you want her to come back; I suggest that you at least keep the lines open to a small extent. She's engaging you and that's a positive. My W went totally dark in the first few months; it's only been since just after Christmas that she's started to open up and have nice, meaningful convos. (When we have them) But, for me, I feel that if she's to come back; I want her to trust me with what she has to say. So I listen and validate; I don't argue or tell her she's wrong, even when I think she is wrong. But I've got to build trust with her and her with me; if she's to come back and we're to be successful.
That's good input. I appreciate the insight. It gives me pause while I consider talking with her and what I'll let her talk to me about. I can see that having a good converstation will help with more so with the possibility of getting us back together versus no or poor convo. So, thank you for you thoughts, that's what I like about this board.
That's good input. I appreciate the insight. It gives me pause while I consider talking with her and what I'll let her talk to me about. I can see that having a good converstation will help with more so with the possibility of getting us back together versus no or poor convo. So, thank you for you thoughts, that's what I like about this board.
Next time she calls and says she is six minutes out, I would either tell her you are out or tell her you don't want her to stop by.
It would just be interesting to see what she says when you say you'd rather she didn't stop.
Remember, you want it RIGHT, not RIGHT NOW.
Melissa
AFWAW, Melissa has added something that is pertinent.
I'm not at my W's beck and call. I do make her wait and I don't jump just because she asks. My life is mine; and when she fits into it for a convo, I listen. I'm just not available all of the time.
Usually we have our convos if she's over to see the kids. This only happens approx. 2 times per month. So it's not like we're conversing in-depth every day. I still practice the short phone calls, I try to end them first, and I never initiate a call unless it's financially or children related.
All right, I'll give it a try. What the hell, I don't have anything to lose, it's not like she can leave me again.
I think the big thing for me at this point is not to overreact to what's going on. I tend to celebrate too quickly when something good happens(my date and the I still love you and don't want a divorce) to the bad stuff(ordering furniture and saying stuff like I don't think I'm going to move home at this point. It is difficult because I am an emotional person. I think the wife is still confused or fogged as Puppy puts it. I will wait as I love her very much but I really hope she hits bottom quick and makes her decision in my favor as it is painful for me and I don't like to be kept guessing. Worked out this morning and ran. A little more focused at work this morning but still thinking about my wife. I miss her very much. Hope everyone else is having a good day.
Smart thinking. It's still a roller-coaster, but with work and practice, you CAN lessen the hills and drops.
Puppy
I did not have a timeframe, once I realized there is nothing at the time that can change her mind. She is in a fog, she must see through that and that takes time. It is much easier for her to see a disirable you, when you are having a great life, and that she might be missing out.
When I started going to the gym, going to Friday evening social events without her, and being cordial and friendly when speaking with her and not wanting, needy, or smothersom that is when things started to turn around.
My wife and I still have a long way to go, but once you finally get that let go attitude and keep it, that is when she will notice what she is missing.
I told myself I would not give up on my marriage because of my children, therefore I did not put a timeline on R recovery. I suggest for your D alone, do not put a timeline on this, it may very well not work out, but I think if you follow the suggestions of DB'ing that it will.
Dave
I see what you are saying. It will be tricky however as I may be forced to move this year at some point. Therefore, my wife's hand will basically be forced. I don't want to give up on my marriage and will not file unless something changes. I do need to let go--that is the really hard part, is it not? How did you get the strength and courage to do so? Weren't you fearful that it would backfire?
AF, I've heard that month:year algorithm, too. For me that means 18 months. And I hear you, brother -- 18 months (or 15 for you) is a dayumn looooooonnnnng time. And I look at that and I think there's no way I'll make it through. And what's happening during those 18 months? She's out dating, whatever, and I'm taking care of the children.
Then I think to myself -- I deployed to Iraq for 15 months. And this is someone I've known for half of my adult life.
Okay, maybe 18 months isn't so bad.
Yeah, I feel for you. At least mine isn't dating that I know of. Matter of fact, she updates me on what's she's doing most of the time. That coupled with the fact that said she still loves me, has expressed regret about the way she left, admitted that she deserves to be put through the wringer, told me that if she came back I couldn't hold it over her head and doesn't want a divorce make it clear to me what she should do--move back in so we can put this behind us and build a marriage that we want. However, the fact that she is in a lease for a year, has two years left for her tour here,keeps making comments about how great it is to clean, cook, etc for one and as an added bonus, she keeps buying furniture for her apartment makes me think that she could be gone for a while. I wish I knew the thing to say or do which would sway her over to coming home. Unfortunately, I don't so I'll have to continue to try to work on me. I still continue to hope and pray that she does not enjoy the simple single life of living alone and comes back! Other than wait and relaxing, I don't know what else to do.
She tried to suck me into an argument last night when she was over. She asked something to the effect of "Do you find it easier to keep things cleaned now that I'm not here"? I asked what she meant. She said you know, my leaving stuff lying around. I told her I actually hadn't sat down to ponder that. I must have said it in an unfriendly manner--unintentional on my part, as she departed the room rather quickly after that and went to talk to my daughter. She did however stop to kiss the top of my head from behind when she left. Did she have to do this? No Do I think she still has feelings for me? I think so and hope so. The real question is, Will she have the courage, strength and determination to move back home as she has committed a lot to her current decision--telling her work, getting an apartment, etc. In my experience, some people will not reverse their decision about something, no matter how drastic or wrong it may be as they don't want to look or be made to look stupid. I certainly hope this is not the case in my wife's. Everyone I know hopes that we can work this out. The only person that I know that may have influence the other way is her friend who is in the process of getting a divorce. Hopefully, she is unsuccessful in her attempts to enable my wife's behavior subsequently destroying my marriage.
AF, I've heard that month:year algorithm, too. For me that means 18 months. And I hear you, brother -- 18 months (or 15 for you) is a dayumn looooooonnnnng time.
So that means it would be 9.5 months for me (unless it's the together time, then its 11 months)! I wonder if that clock starts counting from when she filed for divorce (Jan 9th) or when she actually moves out (which she said is soon).
AF, DrH: 18 months here, too. Of course, since we've been separated since Nov, that means just... (counts fingers and toes) ...14 months of this miserable existence to go.
AF: it does get easier as time passes. The pain never does completely go away, but it dwindles from the excruciating pain that you feel when they first walk out the door, to a dull ache.
In my case, at least, with time and separation, I was able to stop romanticizing about my M. Yeah, I would take my W back in a NY minute, but not at all costs like I would have 3 months ago! She has some changes and things to fix in her life before I will reconcile with her, and she knows it. I guess it takes two to screw up a M, so it should take 2 to fix it, also.
"It takes two to screw up a marriage, so it should take two to fix it as well."
Portland, that's damn-near genius.
Ok, she just called a bit ago. I asked her what was up. She said nothing, she just felt like calling. Ok--hmmmmmmm, could be good--as I stated before, not gonna get excited either way from now on. Told me about her day and was very plesant. Made it a point to tell me that she was in for the night. Ok, now I'm can't help but anaylze the sitch--I'm a man, I anaylze everything. She's calling me everyday, she wants to share her day with me, telling me things that are really none of my concern since she doesn't live with me anymore. All these things tied together(if this was logical and it's not)indicate to me that maybe she does just need her space for a bit and that she is trying to decide based on interactions we have if she wants to come back? I mean it ties into the DBing philosophy of a PMA. Make yourself into someone who they want to be with. Matter of fact, she even told me she looked for me at the gym this morning. Hey, that's good in my book. Not only that she was looking for me but that she told me she was looking for me. I'm not overanalyzing though--remember not over excited either way bad or good. One day, one hour, one minute at a time. Patience, prayer, good DBing and hopefully it will work out.
Ok, she just called a bit ago. I asked her what was up. She said nothing, she just felt like calling. Ok--hmmmmmmm, could be good--as I stated before, not gonna get excited either way from now on. Told me about her day and was very plesant. Made it a point to tell me that she was in for the night. Ok, now I'm can't help but anaylze the sitch--I'm a man, I anaylze everything. She's calling me everyday, she wants to share her day with me, telling me things that are really none of my concern since she doesn't live with me anymore. All these things tied together(if this was logical and it's not)indicate to me that maybe she does just need her space for a bit and that she is trying to decide based on interactions we have if she wants to come back? I mean it ties into the DBing philosophy of a PMA. Make yourself into someone who they want to be with. Matter of fact, she even told me she looked for me at the gym this morning. Hey, that's good in my book. Not only that she was looking for me but that she told me she was looking for me. I'm not overanalyzing though--remember not over excited either way bad or good. One day, one hour, one minute at a time. Patience, prayer, good DBing and hopefully it will work out.
It all sounds positive to me. Sounds like you are still in her mind. She is calling you now, and therefore is doing some of the pursuing now. Keep it up.
To give you all some encouragement, I have been married for 14 years, together off and on for 20. She wanted a divorce and wanted to move out the first of January. It took a very short time for me to realize how dbing was affecting her. To take a line from this thread, I am a man, I see what works and then I repeat it over and over. I stopped all realationship talks, I acted as if I had a life on the outside, when we spoke on the phone, I usually ended it after a few minutes by telling her I had to do something.
Today, we are making love 2 or 3 times a week, hugging and laughing again, telling me that she has enjoyed the last few weeks with me, more than the last 5 years.
I tell you this not to brag, but to tell you that it can be done, too much gloom and doom on this board. My situation was easier than yours, my wife did not move out, but your wife sounds like she is generally interested in you and your life. That is something my wife did not have in the early going, she had totally quit. Like I said, wanted a divorce today!
Good luck and I hope this gives you some encouragement!
Burt
Today, we are making love 2 or 3 times a week, hugging and laughing again, telling me that she has enjoyed the last few weeks with me, more than the last 5 years.
Im so sure you don't want to brag =P
In all seriousness, though, that is awesome for you dburt. It is a breath of fresh air to see a happy outcome, and it really does give us (well, me at least) some hope.
Hope everyone is having a happy Tuesday.
To give you all some encouragement, I have been married for 14 years, together off and on for 20. She wanted a divorce and wanted to move out the first of January. It took a very short time for me to realize how dbing was affecting her. To take a line from this thread, I am a man, I see what works and then I repeat it over and over. I stopped all realationship talks, I acted as if I had a life on the outside, when we spoke on the phone, I usually ended it after a few minutes by telling her I had to do something.
Today, we are making love 2 or 3 times a week, hugging and laughing again, telling me that she has enjoyed the last few weeks with me, more than the last 5 years.
I tell you this not to brag, but to tell you that it can be done, too much gloom and doom on this board. My situation was easier than yours, my wife did not move out, but your wife sounds like she is generally interested in you and your life. That is something my wife did not have in the early going, she had totally quit. Like I said, wanted a divorce today!
Good luck and I hope this gives you some encouragement!
Burt
Burt,
Posts like this really do give encouragement, something of which I am in need of these days.
But its funny how timing goes. When I logged on the board this morning, one thing I was wondering is "How come I don't see many good/success stories? This isn't too encouraging now."
And then wham.... I find your post! Thank you for sharing.
OK, little bit of bragging, but I wanted to say that the timeline is different for a lot of people, sometimes not as long as the rule states.
Burt
I'm glad there is someone with a positive story as well. So, if you would offer some tips and anaylsis on our sitches so we can learn from the master. Seriously, I don't know what to think about my sitch. It appears to be headed in a positive direction but there are serious contradictions in what she's saying and what she is doing. I really wish my wife wouldn't have moved out as I feel it would be a lot easier for her to actively work on the marriage if she was at home. It is so strange not having her there. I still wake up numerous times during the night hoping that it's a bad dream and then have trouble getting back to sleep. Started reading a book last night about walk away wifes and they had a checklist in it about reasons or feelings a woman may be having with regard to her decision. I can speculate that my wife had all of them and I felt so ashamed and bad that I haven't thought of much else since then. Why is it that people don't react to things as they should until something drastic happens? For that matter, why didn't my wife say something to the effect of we need to get help or I'm leaving? The days are getting a little easier but not much. I think about her 95% of my awake time. Wish I knew what to expect.
I'm glad there is someone with a positive story as well. So, if you would offer some tips and anaylsis on our sitches so we can learn from the master. Seriously, I don't know what to think about my sitch. It appears to be headed in a positive direction but there are serious contradictions in what she's saying and what she is doing.
AWAW, if I could give you one piece of advice it would be this:
Do NOT focus on what she says; only focus on what she DOES. Because wayward spouses LIE. When what she DOES aligns with what she SAYS --
consistently, over time -- then she will be speaking the truth.
Until then, focus on the ACTIONS, not the WORDS.
Puppy
Ok, that ain't good then. She says she still loves me, doesn't want a divorce but is buying more furniture for her apartment? @#@$@#$#@$@#!@!@ That makes sense though, now that I think about it. Very frustrating.
FWIW, my W told me in 2005 that we needed MC; because she was thinking about having an A. Literally, she told me that.
But in my DAMness; I ignored or I just underestimated the importance of what she was saying. My point is that there probably were some signs; but as a DAM you may have overlooked them.
Master, that is a good one, I am no master, maybe a jedi in training but not a master.
Listen to Puppy, you cannot believe anything, she is trying to look for signs from you to justify her decisions, you have to act "as if" towards her, it is hard I know, because your natural instinct is to pursue her, find out what is going on, asking her why she is doing the things she is doing to make sense of it. Let me tell you, they will make very little sense.
My best advice to you, is start doing things that do not include her, maybe you and your D can go to a park and laugh it up and have fun! Real fun! Get a baby sitter and go out with the guys one night, have some fun . This will get her thinking of what she is missing, and will stop her total inward thinking of the justifications of her actions. If you are telling us the whole story, it looks as if she is already looking for signs to come back, but she is scared it will turn out the way things were in the past.
Stay the course, it is the straightest path to where you want to go.
Burt
AFWAW: IMO, the building of their independent life has been the hardest for me to deal with, too. In my case it is more than just furniture: a refrigerator/freezer, washer/dryer, artwork for the walls, a car, working on her german driver's license and on getting her german citizenship back, starting classes that last until September... it sure looks like she is planning on staying for a while.
My W also says she doesn't want a D. Why do you think that is? Are we just the back-up plans, the insurance policy if their independent lives fail? Or, deep-down, do they believe that this is just a phase and want to return after they have this out of their system?
Whichever it is, it is damn painful.
dburt,
I hope and pray you are correct in your anaylsis. I have not given her anything to justify her decision in my mind. I have stopped pursuing, don't call(unless she asks)and do my damn best I can at having a PMA. I will not lie--it is difficult at times and I think she senses that. I have not gotten into an argument with her either. I have become the master at validating. My daughter and I have built our own routine and once the intial shock wears off I think we will find some stuff to do. Maybe I will take her to the beach this weekend? Thanks very much for your input and positive words!
PortlandDad,
I hear you loud and clear. If she doesn't want a divorce then why is she getting into debt? I mean, I'll pay for it if she wants to move back but come on. Wouldn't an expensive vacation be more sensible and more fun?
It sounds like your wife doesn't know what she wants either. I can only hope that both of them hit rock bottom quickly, wake up one morning and say to themselves, WTF am I doing, I need to get my ass back home. Oh crap, what if my husband won't take me back? Yeah right, now I'm dreaming. I would take mine back in a sec at this point. The problem is, she doesn't want to and I fear that as more time passes she will want to less and less. CRAP!!!!!!
AFWAW,
Testify! My W is blowing money like it's nothing. They just don't think rationally. Maybe that is just LBH logic; A vacation, or cruise, or a new car would be so much better than what they are spending it on.
Yeah, I would take mine back, too, but I've gotten a bit less anxious as the months have dragged on. She would have to show that she has changed a bit, too. Honestly, if you met your W in a bar right now, would you want to date her?
mmmyeah, I guess I would... I must not be as detached as I thought.
The irony is, that if we are doing DB right, our W's are supposed to want to be with us more and more as time passes, not less and less.
PortlandDad,
I hear you loud and clear. If she doesn't want a divorce then why is she getting into debt? I mean, I'll pay for it if she wants to move back but come on. Wouldn't an expensive vacation be more sensible and more fun?
It sounds like your wife doesn't know what she wants either. I can only hope that both of them hit rock bottom quickly, wake up one morning and say to themselves, WTF am I doing, I need to get my ass back home. Oh crap, what if my husband won't take me back? Yeah right, now I'm dreaming. I would take mine back in a sec at this point. The problem is, she doesn't want to and I fear that as more time passes she will want to less and less. CRAP!!!!!!
Not the way to feel, the more time passes, the more likely she will have that WTF moment. Its kinda zinlike, the less you want something the more likely it will come to you. Again, start doing things with your daughter without her.
By the way is there another man involved, that can derail things.
Burt
From what I've heard there are only two ways to deal with the OM: one, and definitely the less sanguine way of dealing with them, is to just be the better man; become the white knight, the paragon of maleness and the one she would be crazy to leave.
The other way to deal with an OM is high-velocity lead poisoning... Not that I would recommend it, mind you, but that recurring dream does help me sleep at night.
"What you do is you take a knife, and you cut the bottom of the hamstring, just above the Achilles . . ." LOL
"he'll be pushing everything to the right, he'll have to quit the game."
Burt
Yeah, I would take mine back, too, but I've gotten a bit less anxious as the months have dragged on. She would have to show that she has changed a bit, too. Honestly, if you met your W in a bar right now, would you want to date her?
HELL YES, I would take mine back.
I must not be as detached as I thought
I'm with you brother, just put up a good front with her. You can be weak as hell when she can't see it, I know I am. I'm getting stronger but as everyone says, it will take some time and the more I act strong, the stronger I'll become(in theory, that is).
I can't really complain about my W spending money as it is her money and she doesn't have access to mine. Having said that, I would still pay for her expenses to have her back. Yes, I love her that much. I have learned in a few short months that I have been concetrating on all the wrong stuff for years and hope and pray that I will have the opportunity to concetrate on the right things with my wife. I am absolutely misearable without her. I have done some fun things without her and I know I'm not supposed to rely on someone else to make me happy but I've been with her for 15 years and I'm conditioned to her. Let's put it this way, I would rather have fun with her than have fun without her.
I hope that this DBing pays off as I want her to be with me more than I want to be with her. I think the opposite is true though. I think she wanted me more before. Ugggghhhh, I feel so foolish.
Not the way to feel, the more time passes, the more likely she will have that WTF moment. Its kinda zinlike, the less you want something the more likely it will come to you. Again, start doing things with your daughter without her.
Isn't that funny how that works? I was just having a conversation with one of my friends the other day about this. How you have to initially pursue and then pull back with women to get them to desire you. It is odd how we humans operate, isn't it? Why can't we just say and do what we want and get it? The world would be a lot more simple if this was the case.
Oh, BTW lucky for me, there is no other man. At least that I can see. All indications so far tell me there is not. I continue to pray that there will not be one either. I really, really, really, really hope that my wife just needs her space for a bit and will come back home. I will not give her any grief if she chooses to do so. Will things be different? You bet--they will be better because I will do my best to make them better!
"he'll be pushing everything to the right, he'll have to quit the game."
Burt
Niiiiiice . . . .
When my wife and i just graduated college and dating, she said that she wanted to see other people, I was devestated. I did all the wrong things as normal people do, the flowers came, the phone calls, going up to visit her at her house unannounced the whole 9 yards. It took about 3 months to get over it enough to ask out this other girl. When we went out on the town that night, my wife's brother saw my date, who looked fine by the way, and of course I was estatic. What do you know, guess who calls the next day.
We never want to lose things, and if her back up plan (you) is slipping through her fingers, then she gets very nervous. This whole principle is exactly like what happened. If she perceives that you are going to be happy without her, her instincts are going to kick in, she thinks that this cannot be true, and she will come back and will remind you that you need her to be happy.
It really is weird.
Burt
I've often thought dating would bring my wife around; but then I'd be stooping to her level.
MC,
I agree with you. I had the affairs. I got smart. OW showed up, although..it is debatable about whether there was an affair or not. It was inappropriate at the least. Many people said to move on and go out, but I felt it wasn't appropriate, at least/especially not for me. I wanted things to work because they were supposed to work, not because I went out with some other guy. Also, in my stitch, I REALLY did not want to add fuel to the fire.
John,
I agree with Puppy to an extent about the "cheaters always lie" although he did use a different term this time than "cheaters"..can't remember what it was though. there will come a point where she is NOT lying anymore, when her actions/words will be congruent. I don't know when that will be. Hopefully, you will be able to tell. I know it is hard for the LBS. "I was lying...but now I'm not lying anymore...please believe me...!!!" For me, the affairs were the only thing in my whole life that I ever lied about. I was a goody-goody...always did what was expected or what would please everyone else. Everyone always knew they could depend on me to do exactly what was expected of me. Damn, it's hard being a martyr!! The affairs were the times where I could be me, and not have to live up to everyone else's expectations. Arrgg...I've gotten off topic. I know it was unrealistic to expect him to believe me the second I quit lying about the affairs. Not sure what I am trying to say here, except pay very close attention to when her actions start matching her words. Other than that, yeah. None of what you hear, half of what you read, and all of what you SEE.
Another way of looking at her furniture buying is this. Like you, she does not know how things will turn out. She may want to work it out, but knows it will be awhile before she can believe in your "changes". She has to PMA, and GAL, and act "as if" to stay in her right mind too. She's not sure. And she thinks she has to plan like you WON'T be around. She is planning like it will all go south.
You said ya'll used to be a "keeping up with the Jones'" couple. Maybe some volunteer stuff for Habitat for Humanity or some other volunteer work would be in order? If you have truly had a change, then that should show up in other areas of your life.
I know I have been harping on this book, but I can't help it. "Broken Open" at WalMart by Elizabeth Lesser I think. Everything is a Phoenix Process...EVERYTHING. Every thing that happens to you, is an opportunity to learn from, grow, and change. I know it sounds...lofty??...but the way she puts it, is really not.
Okay. I will leave it at that.
One other thing, guys. You all talk about this "back up plan" thing, when our independence doesn't work out, or the OM leaves us, or whatever. It's NOT ALWAYS like that. OM didn't leave me, I left him. He made plenty of money. He was nice enough. I am plenty capable of surviving on my own. Sometimes, SOMETIMES, we really do turn around and realize that we really do love you and that we took a lot of things for granted.
I know that is not everyone's experience, and I won't speak for your wives because you certainly know them better than I. But there are some of us who want the M back, because we remember the good times, and we know how the M could be.
Ya'll have a good night.
Melissa
Mel,
Good to hear from you. Hope everything has been good. I am still on my emotional rollercoaster. My wife is still calling me and we are going on a date this saturday night. I still don't know what to expect but have come to the conclusion that I'm going to be spinning my wheels if I can't let her go and act like we are already divorced. I just for the life of me can't let go and I don't know why. She occupies my thoughts 95% of the time I'm awake. I don't know what the answer is. I wish you did. As far as her buying furniture, I don't know. Someone mentioned that she is good at pushing my buttons--she is. I made a call today and found out the company in VA that I could work for. If this progresses in a negative manner then I will pursue this option more aggresively. Really disturbing to me was that my daughter asked me what I would think if she wanted to live with the wife? I was honest--I told her I would be hurt. She asked why--I told her that it just would, I honestly didn't know what to say.
I'm going to try to have a good time on my date with the wife this weekend. I don't know what will happen but I'm going to try and keep it light. If she brings up the relationship, I want to ask her how long she needs. I know this is probably against DB but I need to know. I want to know if she is willing to come home after that time. I want to know what she is going to do if I get orders. I know these are inappropriate questions but I still want to know them. I've been contemplating asking them for a while now. Work's going a little better but I'm still bored. I'm considering starting my masters back up in May but I still don't feel like doing anything. This is all just so damn confusing still.
If she brings up the relationship, I want to ask her how long she needs. I know this is probably against DB but I need to know. I want to know if she is willing to come home after that time. I want to know what she is going to do if I get orders. I know these are inappropriate questions but I still want to know them.
This is a tactical mistake, in my opinion. This gives her ALL the power.
Why should this be HER decision?
I'm big on Gucci's "I have decided ________ " approach. But then again, I doubt that surprises anyone to learn that.
Puppy
Ok, I'm haven't done it yet. That's why I'm bouncing it off everyone here. Should I just chill and wait? I'm sick of this waiting! How do I take a strong approach and get some answers with positive results? She has all the power right now anyway it seems like. She is the one calling all the shots. I obviously don't want a divorce and will not file. She is the one that moved out. I am clearly confused. What power is it that I have at this point?????
John,
I would be interested in finding out why your daughter is suddenly interested in going to live with Mom. You don't want her to stay with you out of guilt, either. I'd just be interested to know her reasoning behind it. I don't wonder if she is somehow disappointed that you are letting wife walk all over you. I am NOT saying you are...but to your daughter you might appear to be. She sees that when your wife wants you around, you go and when she doesn't you get pushed to the side. Maybe your daughter is tired of picking up the pieces?? Not sure. Motley Crue..."Girl, don't go away mad...girl, just go away!!" It reminds me of that song, all of our stitches.
I wish I had the answers to give you, Bub. My stitch occupies my time, too. But I am finally to the point that I DON'T CARE. I love him, and I want the marriage to be right, but he doesn't want the marriage to be right. So even if he decides to try to make this work, there is no guarantee. He felt like he had to change into what I wanted. Well, yeah, both of us did, to an extent. My deal was that he was never willing to grow/change. He is still not. So if this is what it's gonna be, then good riddance! But that is HIM walking away from the marriage, not ME.
Right now, I think it's hard for you because you still partly want your old marriage back. That's not gonna happen, and you shouldn't WANT it to happen. You are sad maybe because you know how the marriage COULD be, like I do. But that doesn't mean that our spouses are willing to do their part to make the marriage better. They haven't learned anything from this little episode. Yet. Maybe they will. But WE...YOU AND I...will be better for it, whether they are or not and THAT will make all the difference in the world. In two years...in five years, you will look back and say..yeah, that period of my life sucked...but I am a better person FOR it NOW, EVEN THOUGH I DIDN'T REALIZE IT THEN!!
((((hugs))))
Melissa
PS.
I wouldn't bring up anything. If she hasn't filed or filled out the paperwork, then she is still thinking. This only helps you, even though, Lord, yes, I know it is frustrating.
Do you really want to spend the rest of your life wanting/wishing for a woman who didn't think you were worth it?
Just let it go for tonight. Have a beer. Don't answer the phone because you'll just be tempted.
Stay on the net. Go to icanhascheezburger.com and laugh your butt off. Pray.
PS. Are you on facebook?
Melissa
Puppy,
Are you a cop? How 'bout a Judge? Maybe an accountant? You are just so black and white sometimes and I laugh because I see myself. I'm getting a little grayer though.
Have you thought about going to IC for you and then pulling your wife in later. I know you think SHE should go...but maybe the way to get her there is to go first yourself.
Melissa
No, I'm not a cop, LOL. But I did play one on TV once.
I'm in sales, actually.
Mel,
She said she was thinking about it that's all. She assumes we are still getting divorced. I told her that for right now we are not and she got pissed and said I dont' want you guys to get back together? Ok, I got a little upset about this one. I had this conversation with her before and asked her not to say this one again as it hurt me very much. She said she didn't remember. Any maybe you're right, maybe she is tired of pickingup the pieces, who knows? And I do want some of my old marriage back but I also want a new and better marriage with my old wife. And no, I'm not to the point where I don't care anymore--I honestly wish I was as I'd feel a lot less stress probably. We'll see...
Ok,
I won't bring anything up. I know she is still thinking but it doesnt' feel like it cause there's no action. No, I don't want to spend the rest of my life waiting--I'm pretty sure I could get another woman--the problem is, I don't want another woman at this point--I want this one. I'm just frustrated and lonely. I am on facebook and myspace as well, come see me!
I think I would still sit down and talk to your daughter again. This time, ask questions, but don't respond with hurt or anger or ask her not to express her feelings/desires. She's just a baby. She doesn't understand and she shouldn't have to hold in what she thinks because of how you will be hurt. As long as she is not hateful or spiteful, she should be able to voice her concerns without you being upset. She's just a kid trying to make sense out of a crazy, effed up world and if she has to hold it all inside....believe me you don't want that either. She'll only learn that what she thinks/wants/believes doesn't matter and she'll become a martyr, too. It sucks to be this way, sometimes.
For 24 hours from now I will change my last name to Mellenmack so that you can find me. I suck at finding other people, lol.
Give me about 10 minutes to change it.
Melissa
Wouldn't let me change my last name but let me put it in as an "old name". Nice. I'm also a member of the Fairhope, Alabama group and The Great Town of Uvalde group. Other than that, I am pretty unfindable. Unless you are in touch with Breakaway or 25mlc. If you are, just let them know and they will let you or me know. (Like it's a great secret society, I know.)
Melissa
I already talked with her again. She was being hateful and spiteful. I know she doesn't understand.
On a different note, the wife called me again this morning. She started talking about my daughter but quickly segwayed into a conversation about our date and before you know it was using terms of endearment with me--knucklehead and darling. I know--focus on actions not words. The action here is that she is calling. She also asked if I would be at the gym this morning as she said she would look for me--I told her I would not but hey she wants to see me.
I am very frustrated at this point but am trying to stay focused on the positive improvements. It is difficult though.
So far:
Have gone from not talking to me at all to calling twice a day or more
Has gone from I don't love you and want a divorce to I still love you and don't want a divorce, I just need some time
We have gone out on one date and have another scheduled.
Negatives:
She seems like she's digging in for a while at her apartment with buying furniture,etc and enjoying all the ease of the situation too much.
So, the question is, How do I move this along in a positive manner without pushing and make her want to come home? I know some of it--GAL, PMA, other DB stuff. I am trying sooooo hard to be patient. I know there is a fine line with what you say and how you say it regarding interactions. I want to say and do the right things according to DB principles but have the tendancy to come off like a smart ass sometimes. This is the biggest challenge I've ever faced in my life. I honestly would rather be back in Iraq right now than have to deal with this.
So, any thoughts and/or suggestions? Or do I just need to shut up and be patient?
I think you should continue to be patient. Whether you like it or not; this apartment is something that she feels she must do. Either because she's obligated by the lease or she is still working out the issues in her head; or both.
Take baby steps toward this bro..
My W moved out the first time last April and she came back home three weeks later. I was more than eager to have her back; but it was rushed. It was improperly handled by both of us, thinking that we could just immediately go back to our M without any introspection.
This time, she's been gone since September and last night; she asked me if we could start dating. I was floored. But we both agreed that the road back home for her; and the saving of the M will be a slow process. We realized that we rushed back into it too fast last year.
My point is that you have to get out and get your mind off of this sitch; it's the best chance you have at getting your M back on track when she's ready. What are you doing to make yourself be a better person and ready for the marriage, should she want to come home? You can't be the same AFWAW that you were before; you know that doesn't work.
You answered your own question:
I know some of it--GAL, PMA, other DB stuff. I am trying sooooo hard to be patient.
. There ain't no magic answers here, brother. It is WORK, and Michele Weiner-Davis has written the manual for us to follow.
The secret is in the followin'.
Puppy
I've often thought dating would bring my wife around; but then I'd be stooping to her level.
THIS NOT WHAT I MEANT. I just gave you an example of when we were dating. I was saying to get out and enjoy life, when they think they are missing something is when you are most likely to get a response.
I do not and would not ever suggest to date anyone while married.
Burt
AF,
Something that I read once and have tried to keep in mind is this:
The one who cares the least for the R has the power.
The one who cares the most for the R has time.
I feel your pain, wish none of us were here, but unfortunately we are. You are in my prayers.
I am perplexed. My W is sending me job announcements from her work still. Does she really expect me to accept a job in the same building as her if she divorces me? I don't get that frame of mind. Am I missing something?
Should I even respond to these emails?
Should I even respond to these emails?
NO
If it were me and I wasn't interested; I would feel no need to acknowledge them.
Should I even respond to these emails?
No response IS a response.
She's poking at the caged animal, trying to get a response.
No, you don't respond!!!
You told her you thought about pcsing, right? And now she is thinking that if you take a job there, it is prolly a three year extension, huh? What a great way to keep you around while she decides what she wants.
Who needs that??
PS. Start a new thread cause this one is gonna lock!
M