My thread locked tonight, so I am just making a quick post to start the next one.
Tonight...Presto Change-O...H acted totally normal. Jekyll is back in da house....or..was he just sober?
So I have no drama to report.
Breakaway,
I actually had an interesting evening with my WAW last nite. I'm sure it's alcohol driven, but it was still a nice evening. I'm trying not to make much about from a hope/expectation stand point but it was nice to have a nite with my pre-WAW.
Hope your situation is progressing
Thanks. Glad you had a good evening with her. I've had some good alcohol-driven evenings on occasion. ;P Unfortunately have had some bad ones too.
I don't know if my sitch is progressing...but I am. I have been doing lot of thinking this week...I am reading a book called Tears And Healing. It's really helping me sort out some of my very conflicted feelings about my life.
Last night was interesting for me as well. It was H's birthday. We made plans to meet at the mall for dinner. He was in a good mood yesterday, been a while since I saw him in this state of mind. Anyway, he picked this place because it's S12's favorite, and then he could go shopping for some new tools he wanted for his birthday. So the kids were really happy. We brought him a bag with his favorite candy and some cards and stuff.
We met up in the food court..it was 6 p.m. I thought he had gotten a soda while he was waiting for us, but I got closer and realized it was a cup from a gas station. A 32 oz cup. Vodka and cranberry juice. I couldn't believe it. He was clearly under the influence. Again, this is extreme behavior even for him. BUT, at least he was happy instead of irritable.
He loved what we gave him. HE LOVES US...."I love you man" It was kind of like that. We ate (him not much) and then he said, let's see a movie! That's definitely not like him. I love to go to the movies but he usually refuses. So we went and bought his tools and we went to a movie and it was nice.
I really don't know how he fits all these people in one body.
By then about 4 hours had passed. He seemed okay. We stopped and got ice cream on the way home and then watched American Idol on Tivo. He didn't have any kind of bedtime outburst. It was a good night really. I mean..except for the obvious. But he was nice.
He's a mystery.
Last night was interesting for me as well. It was H's birthday.
Small world - it was my wife's B'Day yesterday as well.
She is also a mystery..... Must be a sign : )
no, hon, he's an alcoholic. he's not an enigma, he's not jeckyll and hyde--don't give him any more power than necessary; use your Al-Anon tools to deal with him. you need empowerment, not to feel victimized by the unpredictability of his moods.
no, hon, he's an alcoholic. he's not an enigma, he's not jeckyll and hyde--don't give him any more power than necessary; use your Al-Anon tools to deal with him. you need empowerment, not to feel victimized by the unpredictability of his moods.
I appreciate what your saying. And I'm working on the empowerment. Most of my reading this week has been about detachment, and really understanding what that means. For me...it means that I am beginning the steps to eventually separate from him, and not let him make me crazy in the meantime.
It will go one of two ways...it will be the catalyst that causes change for him...or he will choose addiction and it will be the first step to divorcing him.
I've decided it's not loving or compassionate toward myself to remain in this situation the way it is, and it's not loving or compassionate toward him to do it either. Just "bearing" him and trying to mitigate the effects of his crazy behavior on me and the kids isn't doing him any favors either. At the rate he's going now, he's going to destroy himself with alcohol. His type of cancer could have been caused by it.
I still think he's got some serious issues besides the alcohol, but it doesn't really matter, because nothing can be dealt with without dealing with the substance abuse first anyway.
Thanks for posting!! (((hoosiermama)))
I still think he's got some serious issues besides the alcohol, but it doesn't really matter, because nothing can be dealt with without dealing with the substance abuse first anyway.
You're absolutely right. Bringing a cup of cranberry juice and vodka to a public family gathering is a dead giveaway to the extent of his addiction. If you can, try to look at life thru the Al-Anon lenses for now. It will help you more than you know. Leave the rest of it for another time.
What's fun on a Saturday night???
Doing home improvement projects with someone who just drank a six-pack of beer and half a bottle of vodka!
He's kind of making this easy for me at this point.
I have finally been doing GAL activities and finding some new artistic outlets, and frankly, I don't care what he does. We skirted the edges of an argument a couple of times, but I managed to stay out of one. He was nice for a day and a half, but he's gone back to being snippy and critical. Whatever. I find it hard to take his criticism seriously when he's slurring.
And I realize what a colossal waste of time it was to get upset about things like the 1200 calorie diet. I mean, he forgot about that within 24 hours. All these ridiculous things that happen only last a day or two and then he's forgotten all about them and moved on to something else. Which he will also forget about. It's all the whim of the moment.
Hey!
You did have fun! Did he have a nail gun? You should really give him an air nailer and then leave with the boys for awhile.
lol. ugh.
Sorry, Breakaway. I feel for you. Did you find J on FB?
Melissa
lol Melissa...there was a drill involved, that was about it.
So yesterday:
I went to church...by myself..and afterward they have people that can pray with you, so...I went up and talked to this girl, Erin, and...and I told her the truth. That I'm married to an emotionally abusive alcoholic. As soon as I opened my mouth I started to cry.
Anyway, she was very gentle and understanding...she said I'm not the only one. And she said this church takes that kind of thing very seriously. She asked me the sorts of questions that showed me that actually know something about abuse. And I poured out how I'd been so afraid of talking to anyone through the church because I knew of a friend that went to her pastor (different church) on similar issues and was told she was a rebellious wife. She assured me that no one was going to tell me that, and that I didn't deserve to be treated this way and I wasn't a bad person, a bad wife, or a bad Christian.
She is going to send me some info via the net on some "resources" they have and she offered to plug me in to a "community" of some people who could continue praying with me, and help me find direction on what to do next.
Then I talked to my al anon sponsor on the phone on the way home. She was encouraging.
Then I came home and immediately felt guilty when I saw H.
But...the truth is the only thing that is going to set any of us
free. But I still feel guilty...he would KILL me if he thought I ever said such a thing there. Something like that would be unforgivable to him. It makes my stomach knot up thinking about it.
Then late afternoon we were having company, and cooking together, and he had started drinking his vodka..and I said, um, remember you're supposed to take S9 to batting practice tonight. And he got snippy and said I'm FINE. I said I know you're fine NOW, I'm talking about in four hours. And he got mad and said you know what, then YOU can take him!! And I thought ok then I will.
Then he said...do you think I have a problem with my drinking because you keep saying things about it all the time ( I guess reminding him he had to drive a child somewhere would be an example.)
Me: do YOU think you have a problem with your drinking?
Him: No!
Me: Then I guess it doesn't really matter what I think.
Him: How about compared to YOU!! (stomps off) (this comment is beyond ridiculous)
Me: Well...I don't drink and drive. (he can hear me in the next room)
Him: <snorts> as if this is ridiculous.
Me: Do you think it's normal to bring a mixed drink into the mall?
Him: Yes. If it's my birthday.
A bit later he comes back in the kitchen...I say, look...you've just been drinking A LOT more lately..and I don't think that's particularly good for your health.
He was looking out the window with his back to me...and just said stiffly, I'll take that into consideration.
Then he had to run back to the store because he forgot something, and when he returned he brought me a bunch of flowers. Whatever that is supposed to mean. He didn't drink anymore before driving S9 to practice, but he made several comments about it...like he had to keep reminding himself.
I was also chatting away with his cousin's wife, and a couple of times he made comments about how much I was talking. He was in the next room talking to his cousin. Like, she can really talk, can't she? Are you letting her say anything?
Which...I was. It was a c-o-n-v-e-r-s-a-t-i-o-n.
So we just had a great conversation...the main point of which is that he's better than me.
So then I guess he'll be happier when I leave him.
You know that ain't true.
Why is it so threatening to them that we want to be a team together. It's not about one-up-manship, it's about turn adn turn about. We pick them up when they are down and vice versa.
Why is it so hard for them?
So then I guess he'll be happier when I leave him.
I rather doubt that.
But I suspect
you will be happier when you leave him.
The conversation from earlier....
So.H's cousin and wife were over. They were telling me some stories about how interfering/controlling C's mom can be (H's aunt)...she calls them on the weekend to make sure they are "being responsible" and getting up when they "should", and just weird stuff like that. And it was mostly a funny conversation..just talking about mother-inlaw stuff...
Well H missed part of it because he was gone. So the next night, he asked me how it all went, and I was telling him about the convo...and I was laughing about it, and I said, man, Aunt is crazy! I can't believe she calls them in the morning to see if they got up yet! [these people are 28 yrs old, married, living on their own, employed, and have a kid]
So he of course, as in every conversation, has to take the opposite view. And he's like, well there's two sides to every story. I'm like...there is no other side to a mom calling her adult children to monitor their daily behavior. That's just weird. And he's like yeah, but they're lazy sometimes. And I say...but they are ADULTS. It's THEIR LIFE. It's wildly inappropriate for her to tell them how to act, even if they ARE lazy, which who's to say that anyway. ["lazy" is the single worst thing you can say about a person in his family. Lazy is worse than...alcoholic, for instance, and their definition of "lazy" is ridiculous] And he says, see, you always take the side of the lazy slobs in this world, the small people, because you can't stand it when someone tells you what to do.
So he begins his lecture. The beginning goes something like this..."you listen to me for a minute...and maybe you can learn something about life."
His summary of this entire situation, which is explained to me as if I am three years old...(What I have learned about life is that this entire family is narcissistic and insane)
First of all, Aunt and Uncle are the parents....they don't LIKE the way cousin and wife are. Don't I get that? They are big liberals...and Aunt and Uncle don't like that. They are trying to change them....by hinting. Hello?? See...I can't stand that, because I don't want anyone to change me. Because I don't like him trying to change me into being a better worker.
Secondly...Cousin's W has parents. So of course, Aunt and Uncle are jealous of that. [wow]
Thirdly...Uncle has done a lot for us, for years. [this is very true, and I am very very appreciative of everything he's done for us and I've told him so many times]. What has Cousin's W ever done for me?? Nothing. So maybe I ought to take a step back and remember that...[so we do not agree or disagree with anyone based on what is right or wrong, just on what they've done for us] I am using VERY STRONG LANGUAGE. I am using the word "crazy." I have no right to call Aunt "crazy" when they've done things for us. [is anyone else thinking what I was thinking at this point?] Anyway, he told me that is NOT something I should ever say.
This all went on for a while...then I said, oh okay, so...it's really awful to call someone crazy? Because you tell me I am crazy, messed up in the head, psycho, have mental problems, sick in the head....at least once a week. I guess that means I haven't done enough for you? Because if I've done enough for you then you wouldn't be allowed to call me crazy. So..I'm crazy, I don't do enough for you, I'm on the side of all the lazy slobs in the world...so I'm basically not as good as your family...is that it?
And he nodded and said...there ya go.
So I walked out of the room. Then he came around later and tried to chat me up and I was like...whatever...and he yelled "Well I'm sorry you're so MISERABLE!" I thought, no you're not.
So I pretty much have nothing to say to him. Last night he was all buddy buddy...offered to take the kids to the country this weekend so I could have time for myself. Got up this morning and made a hot breakfast for everyone...told me he thought I should be the one who deals with S12 getting up in the mornings and going to bed at night, so he doesn't yell at him...("since you think I do that")...that that would be best for the family. I've noticed he's into using the phrase "the family" the last couple of days.
I'm just like, yeah, great, whatever you say. I just absolutely don't care anymore.
So he of course, as in every conversation, has to take the opposite view. And he's like, well there's two sides to every story.
I am very new to this site, and am trying to figure out my own M. But, what I'm learning from several different resources is that, you have to choose our battles wisely.
Why argue about something that can ruin your marriage but not heal it. My H is extremely sensitive about things lately, including his fam, but I'm learning to not fight over things that do not matter. That is the Cousin's M, their problem, don't bring it in to yours. Even if you feel you are 100% right, suck it up and say You know what, I think you're right. Maybe they do need someone on their backs until they break out of the laziness. Even if you don't 100% believe what you are saying, it shows your H that his opinion matters to you.
Sometimes when we are adament about an opinion we have the H takes it saying his opinion doesn't matter, or he is always wrong in our eyes and therefore he and his feelings don't matter to you.
I'm working on my M also, but several books and CD's that I have bought all state this in one way or another.
Choose your battles wisely, will this argument bring us closer or farther apart.
I hope I was a lil' helpful. Enjoy your day.
Even if you feel you are 100% right, suck it up and say You know what, I think you're right. Maybe they do need someone on their backs until they break out of the laziness. Even if you don't 100% believe what you are saying, it shows your H that his opinion matters to you.
Hi. I realize if you're new to this site, you haven't been able to follow my particular situation....which has been ongoing for some time. I think you give good advice...for some sitches, when arguing just becomes a matter of habit, perhaps.
But I actually shared that particular story for a reason. This is the ongoing battle cry from my H and his parents and the rest of their enmeshed family...for my entire marriage. Everyone who doesn't do what they say, how they say, when they say, without any opinions of their own...is "lazy." My husband was told last summer that he wasn't pulling his weight at the family company or taking care of our property...while he was going through radiation treatment for
cancer. That's "lazy" in his family.
My H's worldview is that it is his DUTY to change people into what he wants them to be. That is "helping"...that is "love." Listening, empathizing or actually helping them by doing what they ASK is just...unheard of. We have been going around and around about this for over a year. Last spring he seemed to finally "hear" me. Then he got sick. Now he's well. Now it's the same old same old.
So. This IS our battle. This story I told is just illustrating the way he looks at EVERYTHING. That other people have the right and duty to nag, control, complain, and criticize to make the person in question be how they want them to be.
Unless it's him. He can do whatever he wants.
Anyway, I do appreciate you trying to help. But I think my marriage is already ruined.
Breakaway....it makes me cringe and nearly cry to read your updates....but I read them every day. Why? Because I'm praying for you and I know you are stepping toward a new life....not sure if with him or without but I suspect without.
Whatever strength you need to garner, I pray you are getting closer all the time.
I'm so happy though that after your last post you said you just absolutely don't care anymore....it shows in your words that you are getting so much closer to not caring at all (about his abusive words or their meaning) and hopefully that will mean you walking on eggshells less and less, as you begin to not care what he says.
You must be one tough chicka to have survived all of this, thus far.....
I will keep reading and praying.
DQ
Hi. I realize if you're new to this site, you haven't been able to follow my particular situation....which has been ongoing for some time. I think you give good advice...for some sitches, when arguing just becomes a matter of habit, perhaps.
I appologize, I haven't been able to read all of your posts yet. I will catch up. I'm stopping by for moral support. And you are right, you don't have to stand for it from him. Glad you are detaching.
Breakaway,
yeah I also cringe...I grew up in an alcoholic home with a highly functioning rageaholic father. It was hard to admit he was an alcoholic though it was obvious, b/c he didn't drink at work and was a public official, with a great job, (stressful one though).
For years our happiness at home (there were nine kids in our family) was determined almost exclusively by the moods of my father. We'd be playing wildly and when he came home we'd immediate hide and shut up waiting to see what his mood was like. THAT determined how the evening went.
Then we got older and would fight back and it was tumultuous to say the least.
Yes, years later he went into recovery and I actually got close to him (this was AFTER my mom left him btw....and was the ONLY reason he went to AA as far as I'm concerned) and that was a big important thing to me. Then he died from liver cancer, and that is related to drinking.
Don't let your life, and the lives of your children, be run by him. Who cares if he has a good day now and then? Sure, it makes THAT day better but it also makes life even more unpredictable and that does some werid things to your psyche. I know my little sister felt so unsure of her decision making skills in life b/c she could not trust her perceptions, so if dad got drunk and violent one night but "forgot" it the next morning...it did not get discussed. So you had to kind of wonder as a kid, if that had actually happened and whether it was so bad after all, cuz no one was discussing it...make sense? Always walking around the elephant in the living room. FWIW, my dad was brilliant and well educated and made a good impression when sober, and always had a job with prestige, etc. Mom didn't want to call him an alcoholic b/c she thought that gave him "an excuse" for his moral failings to call it a disease. Great. Whatever. Just stalled us and slowed us down in our own growth.
If your life were a novel, who would be writing it? How is it going in this chapter and what would you like to happen in the next chapter?
From my view, you should be the author of your life. I hope you choose to be. Make it go the way you want it to go. Show your kids that they are to be the authors of their lives.
((( j )))
But I actually shared that particular story for a reason. This is the ongoing battle cry from my H and his parents and the rest of their enmeshed family...for my entire marriage. Everyone who doesn't do what they say, how they say, when they say, without any opinions of their own...is "lazy." My husband was told last summer that he wasn't pulling his weight at the family company or taking care of our property...while he was going through radiation treatment for cancer. That's "lazy" in his family.
My H's worldview is that it is his DUTY to change people into what he wants them to be. That is "helping"...that is "love." Listening, empathizing or actually helping them by doing what they ASK is just...unheard of. [snip]
This story I told is just illustrating the way he looks at EVERYTHING. That other people have the right and duty to nag, control, complain, and criticize to make the person in question be how they want them to be.
Reading your post today I was reminded of one of my favorite passages from "Banished Knowledge" by Alice Miller.
It is only through the experience of being loved and cherished that the child can ever discern cruelty as such, be aware of it, and resist it. Without this experience he has no way of knowing that there is anything in the world except cruelty; the child will automatically submit to it and, years later, when as an adult he accedes to power, will exert it as being perfectly normal behavior.
((((((((Breakaway)))))))
I'm here for you sweets. By the way, why did you choose your user ID ?
Hi BA...just catching up..
((((breakaway))))
(((DQ)))...thanks for your caring and prayers. I don't know if I'm one tough chick or one dumb chick sometimes, lol. I hope I'm finished with the eggshells. It's been one long, strange year. When I was involved with OM, I quit walking on eggshells because I flat out DID NOT CARE what H said or thought anymore. His personal attacks just seemed stupid then. I felt strong and confident. Then that R sort of dissolved but I still felt very confident. Wasn't sure what to actually DO...but I felt strong in myself. Then H got sick..and that just turned everything upside down, or maybe sideways because it was already upside down by then. And going thru that whole process and then REALLY separating from OM...got me back in old patterns I guess. The main difference from a year ago is that I think I am facing up to things now, and being honest and telling people finally. Right or wrong...OM made it "safe" to say things, to talk about my feelings, to open up. So that was a big turning point for me. Then it took a year to try and settle out THAT sitch, and get back to where I started, but with a new perspective.
(((2gthr))) Please don't apologize. And you don't have to read my history. I am in the niche of having mental instability in my spouse, whether it's from alcohol or exacerbated by it, who knows. But I probably don't even belong here. More than one person has said I have one of the most complicated sitches on the boards. Although, everyone has a purpose, even if it's just to serve as a warning to others. ha ha. Thanks for your moral support.
((( j ))) Well, sounds like you've lived in my house then.
Al Anon is giving me so much support and guidance and is taking away a lot of the fog that rests here. I think my life is definitely going to change now, for the better...what that chapter reads as, I'm not sure yet. But it's not going to be the same as the last one!
((( dudess, smartcookie, and marriedcrazy ))) You know I love all you guys. :-) Thanks for being my friend during all this nuttiness, mine included. Breakaway...yeah...there are are a lot of meanings to that word...I actually stole it off a friend who used it on a different forum once...she laughed and said, you stole my quadruple-entendre handle??! Do I ride on down the road in a breakaway? Do I shoot and score on a breakaway? Do I go in the china cabinet and start breaking away? lol
I think I might take a bit of a breather from here for a few days and just do some GAL stuff, have fun...etc. The weather is going to be nice here, might as well start enjoying it.
Hugs to everyone else that follows along.
understood. Sometimes the whole GAL thing is a lot easier when you are not reading about it, but actually doing it. Sorry the childhood story rang so true for you, but then, maybe it's ringing true for your boy's lives now. Damn.
(( j ))
Breakaway,
I just read this part, I hear a lot of similarities to my stitch... think we may be close in the race for complicated. Having said that, I just wanted to say "hi" you are obviously not alone, and unfortunately in a very special club. LOL (I'm in a good mood tonight) It's tough, I did give my H the choice to stop or leave and he left - things continued the same until I stopped contact the first in Jan. He is now 37 days sober, in IC for the same amount of time. Still self centered but starting to see more clearly. If that helps. I see you have a lot of support. Need more, I'm here too.
FWIW Kassie
my father got sober but the first time, he thought that "not drinking" meant he wasn't an alcoholic and was all better. He relapsed. Then he got sober and entered a program for recovery and then he got a lot better, and then we had a real relationship. Sadly, by that time, he did not have long to live and the damage his drinking had done to his body led to liver cancer and he passed away after only a few years of sobriety...But I'm grateful for those years, as I am for the first 8 years before he began drinking heavily.
The difference is that there is a lot more to recovery than just not drinking. But that first part, being sober, has to happen before any of the other good stuff.
Also the fourth step for my dad, (in AA and yes, I'm biased in favor of it, but am disclosing...) was a deal breaker for him the first time...taking a fearless moral inventory of the damage they've done and making amends, was just too damn hard for him (should not be called "fearless" cuz it is so scary...but anyhow...)
Taking responsibility for their actions, drunk or not, sick or not, is a HUGE crucial terrifying thing to do. If they/we can get thru that, there's some real hope and I have so much respect for those who have...
I hope no matter what happens to your M, Kass, that you can support him in his recovery. Your kids will thank you for it someday.
(( j ))
the moral inventory pushes many out of the program
It pushed my W out.
Love you too sweets. Enjoy the gorgeous weather. You're valuable and special. Don't settle for less than.
Breakaway,
I just read this part, I hear a lot of similarities to my stitch... think we may be close in the race for complicated. Having said that, I just wanted to say "hi" you are obviously not alone, and unfortunately in a very special club. LOL (I'm in a good mood tonight) It's tough, I did give my H the choice to stop or leave and he left - things continued the same until I stopped contact the first in Jan. He is now 37 days sober, in IC for the same amount of time. Still self centered but starting to see more clearly. If that helps. I see you have a lot of support. Need more, I'm here too.
I think my H given the choice of addiction or his family, he will choose addiction. But of course, I don't KNOW that. That's just my guess. I thought about that...and decided that if he WOULD choose alcohol..then I'd rather know that now (or the near future).
the sooner you know, the better. For ALL concerned. Just mho.
Besides, wouldn't it be great if you were "wrong" and he chose family?
It was the ONLY thing that ever got thru to my dad...losing all of us and not being able to blame my mom for "Brainwashing" us...
ME: "No dad, I was there for the Saturday night crazies and it was all you and your beers and wine. Don't know if you forgot them b/c of the alcohol or if you are in denial, and blocked it out, but I saw what I saw..."
A week later he was back in AA and taking it seriously. I'm one of 9 kids with whom he had similar conversations after my mother left him. I know none of those conversations would have happened if she had not left him.
That was my experience as a child. I'm not saying either way what you need to do. Besides, I get the feeling you'll find your way just fine thank you!
(( j ))
25yearsmic,
About the fourth step, I know about the steps, and he is having a hard time doing the first three. I did say something about a possible reunion after step 4,and 5. He ok. I don't think he has a clue but when i thought about what would give me some confidence - I remembered step 4&5 getting to people in a way that they could no longer ignore what they did while drinking. I am also aware that many people split from the program at that point.
Thanks for sharing.
kassie,
do you have your own thread?
the sooner you know, the better. For ALL concerned. Just mho.
Besides, wouldn't it be great if you were "wrong" and he chose family?
That
would be great. And that's the point I'm finally getting to..that one way or another, there needs to be some kind of action/decision for everyone's sake. I'm done "treading water." Sort of, lol. Since I'm a SAHM, that complicates things. Gotta get totally on my own two feet.
That was my experience as a child. I'm not saying either way what you need to do. Besides, I get the feeling you'll find your way just fine thank you!
(( j ))
Thanks j, I appreciate it.
I am beginning to feel that the true breakaway that's buried under a lot of crap is coming back to life...she'll know what to do.
Breakaway,
My thread is WAH2 - not original but when I first started, I have several and everyone told me to use one for continuity and they all sort of picked it which one for me. Then it locked and in a panic I just continued it. If you read it - you will see my roller coaster ride.
25, can you come visit my thread again? Its Divorce looming #5.
Sorry breakaway, I know this is your thread.
Just wanted to also talk to 25.
Kevin
Sorry {{B}} for cutting into your thread but have a question for {{25}} - regarding the story you were sharing yesterday about your father - did your mother ever return? did their M survive?
Sorry about the hijack but kassie's identity is too confusing for me and my tiny brain to find her elsewhere...
Um, briefly. My parents began to "date" after dad went to AA and they overtly enjoyed each other's company. That was a first in my memory. It took 2- 3 years before they were close enough but that included dad really "getting it" but he was crushed for a long time with the realizations. In fact my MOM called me to tell me that I had "depressed your father" with my forthrightness at his questions... So they were much closer than before. I often wonder if they had simply moved back in together, and bought a home again, but she had kept a room of her own, it could have been totally fine. (They had sold the house at the point of separation).
They never divorced. Once he stopped drinking, he was so much more interesting and his education was an enjoyable thing for us. Holidays were eventually shared by all (not the first 2 years though) and they gave each other good presents AND HE planned her 70th birthday.
But before a truly full reconciliation happened, they were only living a few miles away from each other, and seeing each other often. He'd come over and cook for her a lot (became a chef after retiring from the nightmare career)...they spoke every day. Attended family events together.
And as they were finding their way in life, he got sick. Instead of visiting me out west, the day before the trip he gave HER the ticket and said he was seeing his doctor. He dropped her off at the airport and went straight over to his physician. When she landed out west she said she was worried about him. While she was at my house on his ticket, he called to say "bad news", and my mom and I rushed back east, and he got some BAD news, daily, for 5 days straight, and went home into a hospice program. He had liver cancer, brought on by his previous drinking. He died in 59 days.
When he got the diagnosis, somehow I was alone with the two of them. First he hid himself under the sheet for a minute and wept. Then he uncovered his face and they began speaking in French, their native tongue. I heard him say "this is my epilogue" and that he loved her, and she said it back. It was the first time I ever heard them tell each other that out loud. Then they hugged and cried.
He had many profound regrets on his deathbed, and he asked for my forgiveness, and I gave it to him. I really did. It was the most holy moment in my life.
When he passed away, my mother was a grieving widow. She speaks fondly of him now and misses him often and so do I.
((( j )))
I have heard before that it is hard to find me - don't know why. I'm in separated - now what section. But I post almost daily.
Thanks for the end of the story. H has proposed living apart for a long time if needed and spend time together when we can. I am the one who has a problem with the idea - but I don't know if or when I would ever be able to live in the same place. As far as the loving part goes - it was nice to hear too. My H and I still have that feeling about each other behind all the mess. I think we are both not saying anything right now because there is a lot of work ahead.
I'll hunt your thread somewhere around here...but please don't let your kids
hear "I love you" on a death bed for the first time...know what I mean?
I'm very grateful for being there, don't get me wrong. Just so sad that it took that kind of news for my parents to really cut to the chase, to the heart of the matter and lay aside the pride and pain...
Yes it means "work" -- but life is work. And of all the "work" in life, what better thing to work on than a loving R? Beats digging a ditch type of work...let's just say if it's "work", there are lots of worse jobs out there!
((( j )))
Breakaway,
I listened to that song and closed my eyes, and really listened. If this is how you feel, you are not ready to quit by a long shot. You still have feelings for him and you still want to reach him.
Am I way off here?
(( j ))
Am I way off here?
(( j ))
Yes.
I posted that song for 2 reasons...one is that I thought a lot of people would relate to it, and two, because I wonder...HOW FAR do I have to go for him to even hear me. But I don't think it matters. He's deaf. Something's missing...in him. I know what you're thinking about that song, she says I want to make it work so much it hurts..or something like that...but that was a line I thought...nope.
This song is really more accurate for me...especially him yelling at her in the kitchen and then cuddling her when he's done.
A Broken Wing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RTX6DxJ5G8
got it...
Sorry ((( ))))
...but you know,
if THIS is how you really feel...then it goes back to the point about if/when you'll "hear" the permission, and what that would sound/feel like to you. Could be, you already have it.
((( j )))
Wanna move to Fairhope?
I'll go with you!
Melissa
(((j))) You know...what I'm finding out is it isn't about what permission sounds like. It's about learning I don't need anyone else's permission.
(((Melissa))) Fairhope would be awesome.
I miss the coast like crazy. I watched the movie Heaven's Prisoners Sat afternoon (on cable)..it's an oldie but it's great, it is all shot in New Orleans and Natchez, etc. I love it. Great crime drama, btw.
Actually I had a great day today. Had some interesting prospects concerning my professional future and starting my own business. I am very happy. Things were just falling into place. I was so scared to take any steps, but I did it, and wow..."leap and the net will appear."
So I will post a happy song.
Born To Fly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYZmXZE7Nts
I'm glad you are having some good business prospects. That always makes things nicer.
Keep up the DBing. You are excellent at it. You have great advice. Now just apply it.
You can do it. It just may take longer than you want. But in the end, you never know, it may be worth it.
Trying to think positive.
Kevin
You're moving the right direction. Keep up the movement. hugs
I had Al Anon today and it was good. It's always good.
I have been feeling positive lately anyway since I have some things going on business wise, and I am starting to feel like the person I once was. Today we talked a lot about making the decision to turn our lives over to God, as we understand him. It was an interesting topic. Before all this, I thought I understood God. lol. Now I am beginning to have a much more personal understanding of God, that isn't based on others' expectations of me.
I used to to get so upset I couldn't even pray the Serenity Prayer out loud because I couldn't get through the first part without crying...to accept the things I cannot change...because the things I cannot change were crushing me. I'm beginning to realize that I've had a lot of things backwards about what things I can change and what I can't...which is why the end says, "and the wisdom to know the difference."
Also...reading other people's posts has had something swirling in my mind that came to the fore today. Especially STTRF (hugs if you're reading)...and the comments from people saying I WON'T ABANDON HIM. I've had that for a battle cry more than once in my life. Ugh. Lovers, friends...anyone who needs me.
For once I am going to say I AM NOT GOING TO ABANDON
ME!!
Good job Girlie ! You should be proud of yourself. Save yourself first. Then you can save your kids.
Hugs
I had Al Anon today and it was good. It's always good.
Before all this, I thought I understood God. lol. Now I am beginning to have a much more personal understanding of God, that isn't based on others' expectations of me.
... "and the wisdom to know the difference."
Also people saying I WON'T ABANDON HIM. I've had that for a battle cry more than once in my life. Ugh. Lovers, friends...anyone who needs me.
For once I am going to say I AM NOT GOING TO ABANDON
ME!! ((( j )))
Here's another AMEN! to not abandoning ME. I started this journey last year, it resulted in my giving H a choice. He chose to drink instead of staying and not drinking. While apart we tried to keep the R going but the same continued. And I learned that with the space I found it easier to seek my space out when things got tough. After five months of the same I went dark. A few weeks later I was called to the hospital - they put him on the phone and he refused to talk to me - I called the next day to check on his status, found out he left AMA and let it go. He has been sober ever since that night. 47 days now. I am still dark because everytime we talk he brings up the same arguments so rather than argue, I choose to be absent and set an example for what I want.
The important message is this - I am gradually seeing more clearly where I still the work on myself and healing apart from him and our M. There is a lot of anger between us and a lot of hurt. Good for you to begin the process of healing yourself.
We need to keep supporting each other because it works.
Lots of Hugs! Keep sharing.
Thanks everyone.
Today we were doing some spring cleaning and H found my book The Verbally Abusive Relationship, by Patricia Evans. He is PISSED. Calm...but totally pissed off. He made a few snarky comments...I'm ignoring it for the moment. Finished up what we were doing.
He's out right now with one of the boys. I am sick to my stomach. He'll be home in a couple of hours and he usually starts drinking by three o'clock. I have money and my car keys in my pocket in case he starts causing trouble.
I'll be praying for you. (((breakaway)))
Do you have someplace to go? What do you usually do? How does the evening go after he comes home?
Checking in. Just so you know people are here to support you. You will not go through this alone.
He told me I deserve a lot worse than I get...that he holds back from giving me a lot more. I am ruining his life. I am a lazy ass. I am mud.
He even told me to go ahead and divorce him. He wants it.
Blamed everything on me reading books about it.
Hi Breakaway
Please don't believe a word that he said.....
He is acting out like a child, please ignore him.
I am praying for you.
NW626
I walked the dog and when I came back he'd gone out. He's working on a home improvement project, so maybe he needed something. He's drunk. He seemed pretty close to rage when I left. He said if I think he's an abuser then he's going to start acting like it. He's going to start being the way I think he is.
So I guess I oughta leave the house.
Breakaway
He is drunk and he will act like a drunk.
You have to protect yourself.
Please do leave the house, you need a break from this.
NW626
I agree - he is under the influence of a drug that causes him to lose all control of his thoughts and behavior. You should do what you can to be ok - separate yourself from him in some way right now. Ignore what he said - would he say it without the alcohol?
When he is sober, I might suggest that you let him read the book to see what it says. You have nothing to hide and it may help him to see what he might be doing that he could change - empowering if you want. No point arguing with him about it - either offer it to him or leave it alone - its a book.
Before my separation, it was recommended that I find places to go when my H was drunk so that I wouldn't have to be exposed the c**P that comes with the anger and drinking. I didn't like the advice but it actually helped. Sometimes I took a book and read in a scenic parking lot - sometimes I went to a movie, sometimes I went to a friend's home - a walk with a phone to talk it through with others, sometimes just sat on the phone with others while he was there - then I looked into motels, hotels etc in the area - it all helped me to be ok and realize that I had to take care of myself first.
When I came home - he would be passed out on the couch and i could go to bed with quiet and comfort. Taking care of me.
Make some plans.
Breakaway, please be safe.
Puppy
Thinking of you BW!
Be safe. Be well.
Hey everyone, thanks for your caring and concern.
I went to a good friend's house and we played Wii for a while and talked. I knew H would be down for the count by the time I came home. Going to bed now. Just wanted everyone to know I was okay.
Tomorrow should be interesting...to see if I get him sucking up to me or if he'll still be mad. I don't care.
glad you're safe sweetie. Good decision.
I'm just a phone call away if you need anything at all !
Hugs
(((Breakaway)))
Gosh this situation sounds SO familiar. I (pretty much) had this exact same situation several years ago. Since then, I keep all of my self-help books hidden.
I also was very anxious, once my H found one of the books I was reading. He ranted for a couple of days about it .. wanting me to "justify" how I could read something like that. I tried to and it just made "things" worse.
This was before I considered my H an alcoholic .. too! My fear of confrontation (with H) has always been so that I will do anything to avoid it. (I go through stages with this, I guess.) Anyways .. that is why I now keep all of those books hidden.
Hoping to find you continuing to be strong and that things are better for you today ..
Rustie
Breakaway...
How long can you live like this? What will it take for you to leave? I am not saying to leave. Oh well. Maybe I am saying that. Just hate to read posts like this b/c I am not familiar with the good traits your h has. So I don't know what you are getting from this M. Is it the kids' safety or welfare that somehow benefits from seeing this behavior? Sorry if this offends.
(( j ))
Aaaaand...the cycle continues. <sigh>
H wakes up Sunday morning...and begins the apologies. Except they're H apologies.
H: I'm really sorry about last night. I shouldn't have said all that, especially with the way you are. It just makes you more depressed. I was a total jerk.
I don't really say much...I was still in bed.
H: Okay? I didn't mean any of it.
ME: You didn't mean it that I'm "ruining your life?"
H: I said I was sorry. Okay? I just got really upset about that book.
ME: Well, I left because I felt like you were threatening me.
H: Threatening you??? Have I EVER beat on you??
ME: Well, you said if I thought you were abusive you'd start acting abusive...I didn't know WHAT you meant.
H: very upset...Well I was mad! I found that book! How am I supposed to feel?
ME: So you found a book about verbal abuse...and you responded by giving me...verbal abuse? ???
H: Yes! I was HACKED OFF!! That made me feel horrible!!
Okay, does anyone else see that I am talking to a crazy person? I just said very little at this point because he was getting worked up again. Then he spent the rest of the day massively sucking up to me. Once he came up behind me and hugged me and apologized again for being "an a$$hole" and that I didn't deserve that...because I'd been working hard. Awww, isn't that sweet? Anyway, it was just like that Broken Wing video.
So this making up/sucking up thing is interesting. He keeps doing things for me (I even got MORE flowers. Super.) And he wants to be in my good graces...but I HAVE to forgive him and accept this stuff...or goes to pieces again...and we cannot discuss what he did other than for him to say sorry...or he goes to pieces again as well.
HE is the one who is getting the reassurances in all this, NOT me. So anyway, now it's all sunshine and rainbows again. As long as I act like I'm happy, the storm subsides.
He did admit that he drank way way too much that time, and he was really really drunk, so drunk that he doesn't remember the end of the night or anything. Huge admission. Wow. He's never even asked me where I was or when I came home or anything. I guess he'd have to stop thinking about himself for five minutes to wonder about that.
How long can you live like this? What will it take for you to leave? I am not saying to leave. Oh well. Maybe I am saying that. Just hate to read posts like this b/c I am not familiar with the good traits your h has. So I don't know what you are getting from this M. Is it the kids' safety or welfare that somehow benefits from seeing this behavior? Sorry if this offends.
No, I'm not offended. For the record, things have been MUCH worse the last couple of months...it hasn't always been this insane. Insane, yes, but not THIS insane. Funny thing...the more I have devoted myself to prayer, etc...the worse he gets...like...the answer is he is only going to get worse..and this sitch is OUT of control.
So...what do I get out of this? A roof over my head. A father for my kids. And a nice person to live with part of the time. The first year we were married was marked by abominable emotional abuse...lots of fighting...but I was a true believer in for better or for worse. I'd made my vows and commitment and "divorce wasn't an option." Plus I was so blindsided trying to figure out where the guy I was engaged to went? So I kept trying to weather it out. After the first year it settled down. No more overt problems until we had our first child...and he became horrible again...for a time. Of course, I'd just a had C section and had a new baby. Pretty vulnerable...hard to "fight back." He eventually got over it. Life stresses seem to make him a lunatic. Things went fairly well then for about 10 years...I was a SAHM...he could be really self-centered...but it was okay. Then I went back to work, and had both kids in school and involved in a lot of stuff and things have progressively gotten worse since then.
Met OM about 18 months ago...that was a big turning point. He's ultimately a destructive person, but it did shake up the status quo for me. I was ready to start making plans to leave (and this was knowing OM wasn't a possibility by then, I wasn't leaving for him)...and H got cancer. So we've spent the last 10 months dealing with that. By the end of '08, I was almost crippled by depression. Working on getting out of that.
I joined this board in October. I've tried to make it work, tried to believe he's just a DAM, etc. But..he's an abuser, not a DAM. Or he's a DAM abuser. Whatever. His drinking has gone through the roof since he recovered from cancer treatment. The abuse gets worse because I stand up to him. That doesn't work.
So here I sit. The fricking cancer situation drained a lot of our money. A year ago I could have walked out and been okay. Not so much now. I don't have a job. I am working on that. It's hard to get things in order because I am still emotionally shaky, and he is still trying to control my options.
His good traits? He's a great guy, can be fun, he's very industrious, involved with the kids...that's who he is part of the time. He has to be kept happy or we all we pay. That's who is most of the time.
ME: Well, you said if I thought you were abusive you'd start acting abusive...I didn't know WHAT you meant.
H: very upset...Well I was mad! I found that book! How am I supposed to feel?
ME: So you found a book about verbal abuse...and you responded by giving me...verbal abuse? ???
Classic, BA. Just classic.
Puppy
Wow, that is the kind of thing that you want to say on the spot, but you usually don't think of until 3am that morning.
It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
I think the alcoholism is the key to this situation. If he would get help for the drinking, other things would fall into place. My son was an insane, abusive person who made my life hell. Then he got put in a substance abuse program, they made him take antabuse for 6 months, stopped the drinking, and he turned into a great person. It's great when a judge takes over the situation and forces these guys to get help. I don't know if it is possible to get them to want help on their own.
He's not her kid...he's the father of her children and they are seeing all this insanity...and meanness. And utter lack of accountability or acknowledgement that there is a problem. In a few short short years, your boys will start drinking...think about that.
Breakaway, you do what you gotta do for YOU and your kids....and we can all sincerely pray that your h gets well. But he is not well now and he chooses not to be well.
As you know, I've had some deaths of loved ones lately. Life is short. Don't spend too much of a finite, undetermined but precious resource -TIME ON EARTH - on someone who will probably never wake up. And if they can wake up, it'll probably take you leaving him to make that happen. I feel a sense of urgency I didn't feel before this year. A sense that I have to make my life what it can be, and stop the "waiting" for whatever...the other shoe to drop?? The magic lottery? I've wasted so much of my life trying to control the uncontrollable, or assuming responsibility for things that didn't belong to me and were NOT mine to handle...
Recall my gf neighbor who dropped dead with 4 little kids? And My brother? Well, Tomorrow is promised to no one. We shouldn't assume we have another 40 years here on earth b/c we might not.
How do you want to spend the rest of whatever time you have? Waiting for him to not be home so you can relax, only to tense up when he comes home again? Do you want to be calling your gf in 20 years with similar questions about whether you can spend the night at their house b/c he's getting nasty again? OR, would you like to be getting a real life of your own, with your values dictating how your day goes?
I'm all for saving marriages...but you gotta live to do that, and he scares me. Drunk or no drunk, he's a big guy with a big temper and you have two boys who learn something "new" each day from him, about what it means to be a "drinking man". and they see that he gets to do whatever he wants to do no matter how mean, whenever he has a "hard day" as determined by him and without any warning to others...and he gets to ignore the bad things he did, when he's in a good mood and no one can bring up the bad times...or "THEY'LL spoil the mood...
Growing up in an alcoholic home, yes, been there, done that. No thanks.
Sorry honey, but I just can't handle people telling you that you have to get him to stop drinking b/c it is not your job and besides, it AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN...at least not by staying with him. Has that worked yet? NO it has not. There's no "exact wording" or magic phrases to say. You are an articulate woman who has expressed herself well. He knows what you want and need. He KNOWS...and he has chosen not to do it. For years. So I go back to my new mantra; life is short. Make yourself happy. No one else can or will.
((( j )))
'Life is a gift from God. It's sad to waste it in an unhappy life... don't think God wants that'.
I wonder about that a lot.
breakaway....how are you? Please check in.
DQ
{{{B}}}
Any chance that you might want to try to link a thread or start one for spouses on this site with A's. to vent and support each other?
Hugs j, kassie, Dance Queen and all friends...
I've also thought of a thread for people dealing with alcoholism.
I have nothing really to say atm. Things are still in hearts and flowers stage. I hate the make-up stage more than the drunken outrage part. I'm sick and tired of not being allowed to have feelings.
I plan on seeing a lawyer next week to just ask some questions and see what's what. I also plan on speaking to my MIL about all of this.
H has planned for us to go out of town for the weekend, just the two of us. Should be fine. He's usually fine away from the house. Somehow being at home makes him much much worse.
I took S12 for a drive the other night and explained to him that his dad is an alcoholic. He seemed kind of relieved really...I could see some weight lift off his shoulders like...Oh...so that's what's wrong. He says, well I know Dad drinks vodka every night...like that's totally normal.
Ugh. It just totally SUCKS that no matter what...my kids have to suffer because of all this. They either suffer in the midst of this nutty dysfunctional behavior, or they have to suffer through a divorce. That I am likely to get all the blame for.
Well, that's it. Nothing really positive. Just trying to figure out what to do next.
This may not go well.. but we will see what happens.
I am sure you don't like me posting here. I understand why.
I am not here to argue with you.
"I've also thought of a thread for people dealing with alcoholism."
This would be a good thing. Do I think it should be in Newcomers.. no. It would get more traffic "here" but I think the discussion may wander some.
"I have nothing really to say atm."
One thing I have learned "here" is that people say the best things when they.. just don't know what to say.
Let me prove my point.
"Things are still in hearts and flowers stage."
Here you are setting the stage for what you are about to say. To me.. what follows that statement will be important.
"I hate the make-up stage more than the drunken outrage part."
And that is what is really important. To a point.. you know that this is going to come. I would label this.. More of the Same. Right here is the "fight" you "fight". Right here you could change things. The question it leaves me with is.. what do you really want? Do you want this marriage to work or not? I will assume from here on out.. that just because you posted here.. you want it to work. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am 100% OK with that.
"I'm sick and tired of not being allowed to have feelings."
Those words right there "made" me post tonight.
The main reason it did was because I "see" you.. "fighting" you.
No one ever told you not to have feelings.
The feelings you have are normal. It will be your reaction that takes you somewhere.
I am still left with that burning question.. what do you want?
"I plan on seeing a lawyer next week to just ask some questions and see what's what. I also plan on speaking to my MIL about all of this."
If this does not point out how "on the fence" you are.. I am a retard and am wasting my time.
"H has planned for us to go out of town for the weekend, just the two of us. Should be fine. He's usually fine away from the house. Somehow being at home makes him much much worse."
Read what you just wrote.. and really think about it.
"I took S12 for a drive the other night and explained to him that his dad is an alcoholic."
I don't know that I can "cheer" this thought on. To me as strong as you come across this was a "weak" moment for you.
"Well, that's it. Nothing really positive. Just trying to figure out what to do next."
Yes.. I left some stuff out. I call it fluff.
The path that you are on.. just does not lead anywhere.
So again.. the theme has not changed.
What do you want?
Remember.. you can answer the question.. and I will hold you to it.
or
Just tell me to go away.
{{{B}}}
Just a quick note before I go to work - will talk more tonight if you aren't already away.
Think it will help you to consult with a lawyer to gather info - IMO people usually need more information before making decisions. It is called the "pre-contemplation stage" which leads to more directed thinking about what changes are needed to resolve the problem, thus the "contemplation stage". No changes yet but exploring possibilities which is what will help you decide "what you want" (chap 2? in DR book)
or
Just tell me to go away.
Go away.
breakaway...I was actually thrilled with you when you said you told your son that his dad has a drinking problem. Seriously!
There are alcohol problems all across both sides of my family (thankfully, somehow I was spared from it). For the most part, my father was nothing like your H, but he definitely was an alcoholic. No one in my family ever said anything. Most of them struggled with alcohol, too. But as a child, to me it was so obvious, and I kept thinking "if I, just a child, can see what is really going on here, what does that mean about the adults around me? Are they just stupid? Do they think that white elephants don't leave footprints?"
I would have been so happy if someone had taken me aside and explained that my family has alcohol issues and talked to me as if it was something real, that I wasn't imagining things, if they had acknowledged to me that things just weren't right around here. It would have helped so much and I could have had more compassion for those around me if they had just been honest with me about what was happening.
Anyway, I don't know what the future holds for you but, good job on that bit of bravery.
DQ
I did start a thread for spouses of A's in "I'm thinking about leaving." Seemed appropriate.
Just checking on you sweets !
Hugs
Hellooooooo! Checking in on you for days lady. Hope everything is ok and that is why you are not here.
HUGS
Yeah, sorry. Haven't been around. I'm running out of things to say. Same sh!t, different day.
It just takes all my energy to cope right now.
For instance...we went to lunch yesterday, all is fine. By the time he got home last night I was in the doghouse for reasons that remain unclear. This morning as well. So whatever. I guess it was just time for my punishment, whether I need it or not.
I'm pretty much done here. I don't feel like I have a lot of support to offer others right now. I'm just trying to get by atm.
I hope you're doing okay.
Ah, well don't feel you need to do anything for anyone else. Let us be there for you. It's important. Thank you for taking the time to let us know you are ok and need support.
There have been many nights I didn't know what to say and didn't feel like I had anything more to offer. Somehow I just kept posting here and one day at a time, I got better. Baby steps lady.
Just keep talking to us, it is important for you to figure your way out of this place you are in right now. Either way, is ok. A lot of people here with children put a lot of value on their welfare. I would suggest doing something I did which helped me- I pretended my children were in this situation and asked my self to listen to what I would tell them. And then I followed my own advice. It was a great relief to finally sort out what made sense.
As it turns out that has lead my M to a different place and my H is getting sober, he took the first step to work things out this week. Listen to yourself... through your children.
You did nothing to deserve his treatment and hopefully someday he will tell you that himself. Until then, you have to let others remind you of your worth.
HUGS
Checking in? Are you OK? You can stop by my thread if you want to instead of posting here.
I'm okay. H has been gone for the weekend so that gave me a break from all the pressure and gave me some time to think. I am working on some different options in my head right now. Not comfortable talking about it yet.
Thanks for checking in on me. I've been getting support from friends and al anon people as well. I'll check on your sitch soon.
Glad to hear you are ok, getting the support, and having options. Having choices always makes the picture brighter and allows you to clear your head and see what feels right for you. You are not stuck - just in a difficult R and having to sort out the normal from the abnormal.
I am glad you got the break! A well needed one at that! Don't need to talk about anything unless you want to. Just use your support and don't worry about anyone else right now.
saying hello...hoping everyone enjoyed Easter. My kids are on Spring Break and H has taken some time off and we have been doing things together. No horrible outbursts in the last week.
Will check back later this week (when he's not home!)
saying hello back... I took a break this past month. I actually had a meltdown but things are better now.
What's going on with your sitch?
Can I help?
Thanks Kassie! :-) Same to you.
Thanks also for posting that today, I figured my page would be long buried by now and here it was right up front.
I had to just get away from here for awhile, plus life gets busier in the spring with sports, etc. I've been working parttime and just trying to focus on myself.
Some things have changed a bit I guess. We have kept on fighting. Finally on our anniversary, Thursday, we had a big fight and then started two days of emailing each other over whether we were going to get divorced.
H "is in disbelief" that all this is happening. He is finally starting to sound like a LBH. I think he's finally realized that trying to control me and force me back into the box I used to be in is NOT going to work. He has to actually listen and learn. Anyway, we are officially "trying to work things out." He gave me a card for mother's day that says he is ready to work on healthy marital goals.
So we'll see. I have some hope. He has to understand that those aren't just words though. And I have to say I'm not sure he is truly capable of empathy. But I am willing to try.
Good for you that are staying busy. Seems to agree with you -naturally huh?
Is H still drinking or is that not on the table yet? Stick to your limit setting with him and I guarantee it will work. Just pick and choose your battle grounds.
Keep in mind that he really means well, just may not know how to change himself until he stops drinking and gets support.
Oh, he's still drinking, but he's trying to "watch it." Okay, H. I can tell you from reading back through my journals that his abusive cycles come and go and he drinks all the time, so the alcohol is not making him mean. Sometimes he's mr lovey dovey drunk. blech. But he is drinking a lot less...but still every day.
Anyway, he gave me a card yesterday and said he "is ready to reach healthy marital goals." A very un-H-like thing to say. He's all about sweeping it under the rug and pretending like everything is super. So today I asked him to read the Stosny book Love Without Hurt. He was very uncomfortable about it, but he said yes. Took it with him for the day.
So I see the beginning of him finally being willing to admit to and take some responsibility for his behavior. I don't know if he can follow through. But this is all a first. He's finally surrendered somewhat. I am learning to be encouraging while maintaining my own healthy boundaries. Whew.
Oh, and he quit taking his anxiety meds a week ago. So I have that going for me. ;P
This is kind of where my head is on all this:
Moments Of Clarity
Definition:
Moments of Clarity are spontaneous, temporary periods when a person with a personality disorder is able to see beyond their own world view and can, for a brief period, understand, acknowledge, articulate and begin to make amends for their dysfunctional behavior.
Some Examples of Moments Of Clarity
* A relationship partner apologizes for their behavior and agrees to attend couples therapy.
* A husband acknowledges that an infidelity accusation he has held over a spouse for years isn't really true.
* A sibling returns a stolen item to it's rightful owner.
* A mother confesses to her children that past episodes of domestic violence were not warranted.
Moments of Clarify can, at the same time, be extremely gratifying and rather frightening to a Non.
On the one hand, they may be hearing, for the first time, the very healing words they have longed to hear for years: "I'm sorry", "You are a good husband and father", "You are a good daughter", "I'm proud of you", "You didn't deserve that", "It's not your fault", "You are important to me".
On the other hand, a sudden, unexpected change of heart, even in the right direction, can be disconcerting to a Non. There is inevitably the question of whether the change is genuine, permanent and without strings attached.
Regardless, this is going to be a very emotional time for both the personality disorder sufferer and for the Non. Some changes or promises of change turn out to be just Hoovers. Others may be honest, whole-hearted and sincere attempts at Recovery. It is likely at such a time of emotional transition that neither the PD-sufferer or the Non is completely sure whether the PD-sufferer will be able to follow through on their intentions of change.
Therefore, sudden moments of clarity, while providing a welcome respite from the cycles of abuse, are probably not the best time to make any big life-changing decisions or commitments such as moving in, getting married, getting pregnant, opening joint accounts etc. It is probably best to maintain a supportive, yet safe environment for all parties concerned and to take a wait-and-see approach for 6 months to a year. Most hoovers will not last that long.
Then there is trying not to get your hopes up just in case you will be disappointed later. It is important to remember that personality disorders are true mental health conditions over which the sufferer does not have complete control. Many of these moments of clarity are honest sincere attempts by an individual to try to reach a better place. However, it is very difficult to recover from a personality disorder and many do not make it. If we, as non's, pin all our hopes on a personality disordered loved-one's ability to climb the mountain range of recovery we may be asking them to be somebody they can not be and we may be sowing the seeds of future regret, disillusionment and resentment. We may be doing a great disservice to ourselves and to the person who we try to love.
Therefore, if you find yourself in a moment of clarity with a loved-one who suffers from a personality disorder, embrace it for what it is. If at all possible, accept those precious moments of validation and apology with gratitude and humility and without gloating. Then remember who you are. You are not defined by how a person who suffers from a personality disorder sees you or describes you. You are you. When you reach a place where you can say "if he/she recovers - that's OK and if they don't - that's OK too" you may just have transferred your hope somewhere else and you will be in the best position to offer support and validation, if appropriate, to your loved one.http://outofthefogsite.com/CommonBehaviors.html#MomentsOfClarity
Okay, so, wow.
He called me at lunch and said he'd read 3 or 4 chapters so far. Heis responding really well...he said he was surprised because it wasn't blaming or saying he was a dickhead or an [censored] or anything, that he just needed to change his behavior. He thought it was a really interesting perspective...
He commented specifically that he does just try to dominate me and the kids, yelling and shutting us down, simply to have his way and be selfish and not have to deal with anyone or anything. That he doesn't want to deal with anybody's feelings, he just wants to go on and do his own thing and have his own way. The interesting thing was how he was discussing this with me...just very matter of factly and not all..."I'm a horrible person"...or instead, raging and being defensive and blaming. It was just a normal OBJECTIVE conversation. WOW. Somebody
pinch me!
He says he doesn't quite know what to think about Stosny saying that dominating everyone hurts himself as much as it hurts others, that it brings him down as well. He said he's having a hard time understanding all of it...but he clearly was understanding and recognizing some of what he does and that he can change that behavior. So it was very good, him talking about specific behaviors and how damaging they are and those are practical changes he can make.
He also seemed impressed about the parts that explained how moods
travel through a family...and for him to come in the front door and start yelling at the kids to start picking up was terrible and he should stop it.
He said that it was helping. He said he knows he needs to be
different but he didn't know what to do. Like, he knows he should "love us more" but what does that mean? I don't want to get my hopes up, guys...but he was SO nondefensive and interested in LEARNING...
One other thing was that he understood from the book that if I'm angry or upset or in a bad mood, he shouldn't jump in and start arguing with me, but that I need HELP. I said, well a hug is a lot better than a push. And he was like, yeah! Why didn't I think of that?
Well, because your dad is an [censored], that's why you never thought of that. ;P
He did make the point that it might take him some time to learn how to act, but I thought that was even a good sign, instead of him acting like, well gee I've got it now honey, everything is perfect now. And he also said the book really showed him HOW BAD all this has been for the kids...and he's very sorry about that. but not that emotional abuser kind of sorry. He said he hoped it wasn't too late to fix things for the kids, and I said it's never too late for that, they respond to positive changes pretty quickly. Even adult children do I think, some compassion is all some people want from a parent even when they grow up.
Okay, that's the latest!
OMG Breakaway...I have been praying for you in your absense, hoping you were ok.
And now this update!!! WOW!!!
I truly TRULY think this sounds like a man who has a chance to fix his life and stop hurting people before its too late for everyone.....WOW!
Please keep us posted and as you know, baby steps....
DQ
Don`t know your whole story breakaway-will catch up though when I get a chance. But I have to say that outofthefog excerpt was very interesting.And the outofthefog site very interesting for hose of us who suspect, or know, that we`re dealing with a partner who may have a personality disorder or mental illness.
Defnitely sounds like your partner has hit a moment of clarity! How good for you! Though I`m sure you`ve read the piece in outofthefog about hoovering where a PD sufferer can suck you back into enabling their bad behaviours and start the cycle of suffering all over again.
Keep your hard won changes for yourself! And thanks for your insights.
Wow... have you checked out "BPD Central" ? Another support site for family members who live with a person who has PD. Keep in mind that a person can have both a drinking problem and a PD. My H has 100+ days right now, attends AA and church and is in IC for PTSD and ad PD. It has been many moments of clarity and recovery with occassional setbacks. I personally don't know if I can do it myself. His IC seems to think that he can help us both. It scares me. But don't let me scare you. You must enjoy the "firsts" - they are stepping stones to something greater - and I am getting a glimpse of greater - this is how my H started his change.
Keep talking - you are not alone in this journey - you have sisters and brothers along the way.
Excuse me B - wanted Fallgirl's running thread.
Read a lot of your thread this morning, breakaway. Think it was really interesting to read about your H`s parents at the football game and their ongoing negativity towards players. I know that constant rant-my parents did it, particularly my Mum about every body and anybody on and off the football pitch. Put me clean off football for life!
And, of course, it`s strikes at deeper issues too.
Of course, our parents have a huge impact on the way we turn out. My FIL is and alcoholic and was a wife beater. And, while I can`t stand the man, I am finally begining to see he too is carrying the burden of previous generations and that the pain he has inflicted is because he hadn`t the strenght, wisdom and awareness to break that cycle.He too is a victim. Kinda helps in terms of forgiving him.
Also, have you read any of Melanie Beatties stuff?Co dependent Wife, Co Dependent No More. Both very useful for unhooking from the Crazy Dance with a partner.
Not sure if my H`s PD is-if any-possibly Passive Aggressive though as his brother went to therapy for this too.
Breakaway.. I hope this is a sustaining change. It is very encouraging. As you know, a person has to recognize their own behaviors before they can change them. But if there is a real PD involved, many times the sufferer will bail on change as it becomes serious or painful.
I'm praying for the best.
Checking in, saying hi! What's going on? Hope you are ok.
Oh well. Old habits die hard.
It seems my husband doesn't really do anything wrong after all. It's all me. I have problems. I'm demented. He's never done anything to make me angry. He doesn't do anything, but he's also "working on it" whatever "it" is. Since he doesn't do "it." And even though he doesn't do "it", I should just forget about "it" since "it's" all in the past. The past being five minutes ago, if necessary. Just forget "it"!
My main problem seems to be that I am stubborn, because I won't do what I'm told. This makes me a brick wall. But he really really loves me and brings me flowers 3 times a week. Even though I'm sick in the head. But I'm his baby, he loves me, I'm the love of his life, even though nobody can tell me anything because I'm a "little fireplug" who can't take criticism when he's only trying to help me. Since I'm the crazy one.
I guess I'm really really lucky that he puts up with me and my crazy ways, since I can never make it without him.
Sorry Breakaway.
What are you doing to take care of yourself?
Coach
Well...that's a good question and gets me back on track somewhat. Our routine got a little topsy turvy with school ending and taking a short vacation and I did a temp job for a few weeks and then I don't know, old behavior falls back into place.
All the activity and travel kept me away from Al Anon meetings and church for a couple of weeks and without all that external support I find it hard to maintain my peace of mind around him.
And of course, though I was trying not to get my hopes up about his "moment of clarity" I did anyway. He really seemed to be "getting it" and now he won't even discuss it. I asked him if he was going to read any more of the Stosny book, which had made such a big difference, and he got mad and said he ALREADY read a few chapters, didn't think he needed to. And of course, he said he didn't want to talk about it.
Anyway, back to Al Anon and back to focusing on me, and taking care of myself AND working on myself and my own problem behaviors. I am spending more time in my yard, I am getting ready to refinish some furniture (I've never done that before), and I am working on archiving some very old family photos of ancestors, etc. The trip I took was to visit family I haven't seen in four years, cousins I grew up with and that was very affirming. H didn't go, so I enjoyed not having pressure from him during it.
Really, things are kind of fine with him, as long as we're busy, and doing things with the kids, and as long as the house, kids, etc is exactly how he wants it. We just can't talk about anything.
It's lonely. But it could be worse. So, I am just going a day at a time. Should start working again next month. Working last month made me happy. It was in a new environment, and I enjoyed it. My thinking right now is that I guess I can hold my family together even if it's not ideal, and often painful. I think.
You know, the definition of pathology is when someone cannot change, cannot grow, and does not have insight about one's own behavior...and the old lack of empathy thing.
This inner conflict never seems to go away. Today I was feeling a little more grounded, making some personal strides and feeling more confident, and he comes home and starts going thru the house and looking for things that aren't done. I did everything he asked me to do, I've kept the yard up so he doesn't have that to do, which I've not done before. I go out and pull weeds, etc every morning so it doesn't get ahead of me. I keep the car cleaned out, something else he has often complained about, so I keep it pretty straight.
The kids are banned from all electronics for a week because of mouthiness, so they do other things like make art, etc, make MESSES, etc, lol. They picked up all their crap from the day, but their room was still kind of messy. This is the part where I tell you we have 800 square feet of living space, plus a semi finished basement with playroom and office. They are home all day. It is summer. They play in the house. So 90% of everything is looking good and in order and that's not good enough. When I tried to explain that while they are home, some of it is being used. He told me I am just taking their side. Because it's all about "sides" and who's "winning" with him.
I don't even know why I came back to this board...I guess it sounds like I am just here to complain. I keep making the decision in my head that our family should be together and then in 10 minutes of his coming home I am near tears because of his bitching and perfectionism. Basically,everything is to be perfect when he gets home.
I really don't like him right now. I wish I could keep his criticism from bothering me. He got mad at me for getting upset. I just walked away.
I feel like my life is a no-win situation.
Big hugs BA. I know what you mean about the no-win. AT least my h doesn't live here anymore. He says it's comfortable this way and he is content to do it that way for now.
Like you, there are frequently times that I really don't like my h. I just feel that my life is drifting down the drain and I'm losing who I am meant to be. Do you feel like that too?
Breakaway,
Sorry I missed you when you were around. Did it help you to be here before? It sounds like you need support. Hope this finds you.
Well I guess I do need support. But I have pretty much decided that this is over, this relationship is destroying me. I have so much work to do to prepare and plan for a new future, and I'm probably looking at poverty realistically. But poverty would be better than insanity. The mood swings and blame are just more than I can take anymore.
When I very first came to this board I said I felt like I had to choose between the lesser of two evils, and unfortunately, after 9 months I still feel the same way. Any attempt to communicate with this man has resulted in getting worse abuse from him.
I stand to lose quite a bit...all the things that have been what kept me hanging in there. Don't see any other option at this point.
(((Breakaway))),
Glad to see you back here. I'll lend you all the support you need.
I know things lot impossible now, living with and AS is chaotic and tiring. You have tried working with it, and now you think you have to end it?... is a separation possible to allow time for you to get back on your feet, and for him to see his problem without you around to blame.
In my sitch, I postponed a separation several times b/c it is a hard thing to do, but things only got worse and out of control. I wish I would have done it sooner. ANyway, my H said that when living with me he was able to blame me - but when his life was the same without me in it - he started to realize that he had a problem. When he had to manage life without someone to do everything and manage everything and cover up - he had to face himself. When I asked for the S, I asked for a few months, he was the one who demanded that any S would be followed with a D and/or at least a one year S. So I let go... for myself, I decided to give it one year and if there was no change then I would get the D.
Well as you know, seven months later, H sobered up and remains that way. What you may not realize is that and AS does not know what is going on... they don't mean most of what they say let along remember. They are in pain and looking for relief, not realizing that relief will not come until they stop drinking. You know the rest.
So, is it possible to S until things improve?
How can I be helpful?
Well...maybe that's what I should do. Go for "separation" instead. Not see it as The End totally. I'm afraid of inciting his rage though. I have no plans to tell him my plans at this point. Will get back to you later.
No matter what you do, he will respond with anger and procrastination.
Just focus on taking care of yourself and children. Be gentle but firm about your decision. Remember, he is ill but doesn't recognize it. You are not doing anything to hurt him, but to protect those he loves. Gather your strength, keep focused and use your support.
Hey break...just a quick fly-by hug. I'm lurking.
Always remember, safety first. You've got your plan, right?
love, Goldey
No I don't really have a getaway plan. I'm not physically afraid of him.
The latest big thing was that he drove drunk with the kids in the car.. I of course laid down the law, and he gave me some lame fake apologies that meant, in his mind, that I was supposed to immediately forget about it. Well, I didn't. I kindly, and I stress that it WAS kindly, told him how unacceptable things had gotten and that he absolutely could not drink ANYTHING and drive. He became furious with me. this was all thru email, during which he said he'd take what I said into consideration.
But by the time he got home he was livid...with me. Yes. He's the drunk driver, but I am clearly the problem. I got all kinds of crap about how badly I was treating him. He tried to get his buddies to agree and they were like, dude, SHE'S RIGHT. I talked to his parents about it all as well.
Anyway, his mom talked to him about it too and he's been pissed at me ever since. I get the silent treatment for no reason, this he alternates with lovey dovey stuff and gifts...then he's mad again. He's just totally nuts.
I've tried this week to ignore the moods and be pleasant, but he let me have it tonight. He just was not going to be satisfied until he unloaded all his garbage and guilt onto me so he could feel better. So I got about an hour of how crazy I am, and how bad he's got it, blah blah blah blah.
Then he made me dinner and hoped I'd join him. Presto, let's be chums. I said, oh, is my punishment over? He said his favorite line...come on, let's just forget about it.
If I had more than 10 dollars in my pocket, I'd leave.
I just went back through my thread. Jeesh. I'm embarrassed. I've said the same crap since February. Six months. I guess I keep getting little inklings that things might get better...and then they get worse again.. Or maybe I think if I were just tougher or something I could handle it better. I don't know. I WAS handling it better. Feel like I've lost ground.
I realize that March was when I found that the OM, that I wasn't involved with anymore, but that's when I found out he'd been lying to me all along, from the beginning. That he'd tricked me, that it was all fake. So, I have to admit that had caused me a lot of negative emotion to cope with all over again. On top of the daily junk.
Well. This is pathetic. My sitch hasn't changed, and I can't seem to make it any better, and I don't have the resources to do anything else either.
I don't even know if I should post here.
Of course you should post here. If not for this place, I'm afraid you'd have no one to listen at all! Please keep posting. There will be some help somehow.
((((((((((breakaway)))))))
My sitch hasn't changed, and I can't seem to make it any better, and I don't have the resources to do anything else either.
Sometimes we need help from our brothers and sisters. Keep talking to find a solution for you. Solution = better
You can handle it.
Coach
You definitely could benefit from staying here. don't be embarrassed, we all could feel the same way. My father used to remind that mistakes were necessary for our learning and that we should welcome them in our world.
I do think that you should be setting some clear boundaries with H's drinking behavior to assure everyone's safety to the best of your ability. Avoid arguing about his behavior, as you already know he can make an argument out of anything. Don't take what he says personally b/c he doesn't mean it nor will he remember it later.
Finally, hold onto support for yourself as much as possible to keep your sanity intact = the kids need you to be ok.
And one more thing... it isn't your fault that he drinks... if he could stop or control it there wouldn't be a problem.
Hello. No worries, I don't think his drinking is my fault whatsoever.
So. The night after his last bad episode, we were watching TV together and talking, and we saw some LiveStrong commercials, about different athletes that have survived cancer, and were talking about hope, blah blah.
And he says he wishes he had been a better man about handling his own situation. That he handled it with drinking, and he proceeded to talk about all of that in a mature sincere manner that I found surprising. He told me he thinks he was addicted to his painkillers at the end of the year (which I also thought), and then started drinking a lot of hard liquor to compensate for going off the drugs. And he knows it was too much and it did affect the family, and he was sorry for that. He says he's quit drinking liquor (still drinks beer, but the fallout is much less horrible when he drinks beer...he mostly just vegges out and goes to sleep), that he's quit drinking in the car. That drinking in the car all the time was ridiculous behavior and he had no excuse for it.
So I didn't say much, as that is quite a minefield, I just nodded sympathetically from time to time.
He said he's feeling a lot better since he laid off all the vodka. Ya think?
So that was all positive, and from what I can see it seems to be true. But I am not all excited or anything. 24 hours before this conversation he was totally irrational and mean. 24 hours from now he could be again. Like when he read that Stosny book and he seemed to really get it, and it was such a "breakthrough" and then he went back to the same hostility and blamed it on me.
But I will take it as some progress. I got a new job recently that is really satisfying, though it doesn't pay much. But I feel like I have control of my own environment there, and a lot of autonomy and appreciation, and it makes it easier to tolerate his stifling control of what we eat and when and all that crap. I just think, yeah, great, whatever.
I'm also around a lot of young people and creative people and it's very inspiring. I can't believe how much I've lost all my confidence over the last 10 years. It makes me feel sad...but I feel like I can begin to turn it around. Once upon a time I was a person who felt like I could do anything if I set my mind to it.
Sounds like H is recognizing his problem but as it is a serious life threatening illness, it is not as easy to stop as we would think. My H had this similiar pattern, where he would have these moments of clarity and sanity. He would make changes in what he drank or when etc. It became part of the process that showed him his problem. Each attempt to control his drinking will fail and eventually he will see it all for himself. Hopefully it will not be b/c he or anyone else is injured.
As I figured this part out, it became easier to let go of the arguments and allowed him to see his problem instead of our arguing. Sounds good that you have an outlet that reinforces what you can do and will help you rebuild your self confidence. A is an illness that affects everyone around the A. The experience will clarify things for you.
Well...watching H be sober is interesting. He didn't drink much over the weekend. He is discovering all kinds of new things, like he's Rip Van Winkle and just woke up in his own home...and is somewhat curious as to why everyone avoids him and is inexplicably defensive.
He was enjoying a National Geographic magazine, and he looked at me and said..did you buy this?? Um, nooo. We've been getting it for six months. Gift from my parents. Really?? he says. Wow, never noticed it before. Never noticed the bright yellow NG and other people reading it or discussing it in the same room with him.
Didn't realize that thing in the garage was something important. The cedar chest I inherited from my grandmother, that survived Hurricane Katrina, filled with my mother's old letters. That thing? Oh, sorry I was using it for a work bench.
It's a bit surreal...like,
how drunk have you been?? Just sitting around in a fog, apparently.
So, on Sunday, we had an argument...which was kind of going the same way as always, except I am stronger than I used to be. He told me I was sick and I just laughed at him and started reading a book. So then after a while, he came over and said, okay what did I do?
I said, are you being sarcastic?? He says no. I seriously want to know what I'm doing that makes this happen. Of course, I'm still thinking..
is this a trick? But he seemed genuinely confused by the fact that "everyone" is mad at him and blows up at him for NO REASON AT ALL. It finally occurred to him that
maybe he IS doing something to cause it.
So, and this is unbelievable!!, we went thru the previous conversation sentence by sentence...discussing how each comment fed the next, etc. Normally confronting him about words that come out of his own mouth makes him totally CRAZY. But this time he wanted to discuss it. So we did, and I apologized for some of what I said, and stood by some other things I said. He apologized and said he realizes he has to change the way he talks to us. So it was a good conversation. I still don't trust him because he can think that way today and if I let my guard down he'll try to annhilate me later.
Anyway, I've seen some very positive signs. And I realized that it's possible for me to feel affection for him when he behaves rationally. Then he finally joined facebook. He's run me down about facebook constantly. But he joined and actually we were kind of having fun with it, and I felt this ridiculous surge of joy about it. That it would be fun together. Silly socializing with all our mutual friends.
But then I SAID that to him, with smiles, and he immediately went into curmudgeon mode about how stupid it is and a total waste of time. Of course it's a waste of time. So is watching baseball if you ask me, but it's still fun. I still feel pulled in different directions because he gives with one hand and takes away with the other in the most discouraging passive aggressive way. UGH!
So that's just an update. I have no goal really besides going to work and getting the kids ready for school to start. I'm trying to stand aside and let him go through whatever it is he's going through.
So, and this is unbelievable!!, we went thru the previous conversation sentence by sentence...discussing how each comment fed the next, etc. Normally confronting him about words that come out of his own mouth makes him totally CRAZY. But this time he wanted to discuss it. So we did, and I apologized for some of what I said, and stood by some other things I said. He apologized and said he realizes he has to change the way he talks to us. So it was a good conversation. I still don't trust him because he can think that way today and if I let my guard down he'll try to annhilate me later.
This is big that he took your feedback. You coached him now praise him for the way he handled that. Let him know how much it means to you and you realise that it is probably difficult for him to hear some of these things. You are leading/tough loving him.
Cheers
This is big that he took your feedback. You coached him now praise him for the way he handled that. Let him know how much it means to you and you realise that it is probably difficult for him to hear some of these things. You are leading/tough loving him.
Cheers
So, things are going pretty well right now. I haven't directly praised him...I know what you're saying, but he is so contrary that it will likely start another fight. You can't talk to him like a normal person. I've just been trying to be more complimentary of him and his efforts at other things, like cooking. He likes to cook and I've started working fulltime recently. It won't stay this way, but I've had to stay a bit late in the evenings and I have to do some strenuous stuff just for the moment. I have been beat! And he's wanted to cook and stuff and I've tried to be super duper appreciative, etc. Well, I am. lol He seems to respond to that.
The biggie for today was that I sideswiped a pole in a parking garage today.
Just the front quarter panel...anyway, i called and told him. There was a long silence. Then he said it was okay, it was an accident. One thing I've always held against him was the time I was in an actual car accident, with another car...and I called him all shaken up and the first thing out of his mouth was "you know you just made my car insurance go up??" Didn't even ask if I was okay. So...silence is a good step for him.
I told him it looked really bad, not that it does so much...but, in a 180, I told him it was awful, so then maybe he'll say it's not so bad. Normally I would say it's not so bad (glass half full) and he'd freak out and say it's awful (family trait). Just as an aside, I've learned that his family likes to wring their hands, hang crepe, and say "ain't it awful." If you DON'T act like that...they think there must not be anything wrong. I despise acting that way, but sometimes...well, when in Rome...
So the car looks SO BAD...
lol
Anyway, he's staying off the liquor, and he's been engaged with the family. And we are all doing pretty well. He barely touches me however. Distant in that way. But he's stopped being mean for now.
Hey Breakaway,
This sounds really positive. Sure, guys got a ton of baggage. But still some tangible bright spots! Keep up the good work.
Hey Breakaway,
This sounds really positive. Sure, guys got a ton of baggage. But still some tangible bright spots! Keep up the good work.
Hey you. Yeah unfortunately I have a lot of baggage because of his baggage, ya know? But I'm still working on it.
So I have two big problems.
One...on the bright side, he is keeping his word so far and staying off hard liquor. Has cut way way back on drinking but still drinking some beer, especially on the weekend, but still keeping to what other people would call a "normal" level of drinking. It's not ideal, but it's a big improvement. He is making an effort to be engaged with the family and we've been doing things together. He's tried not to be critical. He's not been openly hostile since giving up liquor.
The problem? Well..I'm still pissed. I am having a really really hard time just going, oh fine. Then all is well, let's just dance in the sunshine. I have been through hell the past year and a half, especially the last six months. I hurt. I don't know how to just pretend it didn't matter. I don't even know how I feel about him. What I do feel is pressure. Like pressure to smile and be happy and treat him great so he doesn't feel bad and regress. Or yell at me. I STILL feel pressure to keep my mouth shut about anything that does bother me. I don't feel safe, I don't feel relaxed. I think I've stopped feeling scared long enough to just feel plain angry. I feel almost sick with anger sometimes.
Two...and much worse, yet related...is that I have to sit him down and go over our financial situation which is not what he thinks it is. Why? Because I lied about it. At the beginning it was just putting him off when he was terribly sick with treatments and on medications and not knowing what the hell was going on. I just did the best I could, and it really wasn't very good. I do know when we got our taxes done that we made 25% less income last year because of the illness, plus all the medical expenses. So..actually it all makes sense. It's not like I did anything terrible. I paid our bills. We don't have much left. I checked with my SIL who's a mortgage person and she figured out what it would be to refi and pay off some credit card debt and have some savings again and actually reduce our pmt. Our house is close to being paid for...so we will still have tons of equity. See, writing it down, it doesn't sound so bad. We're still in tons better shape than most of the country. That isn't going to matter. It's not even the lying that's going to make him mad.
he just has these black and white ideas. He will NEVER refi the house, he will NEVER have any debt, he will never this or never that. This is going to be the end of the friggin world to him. He is not going to listen to why and how and what. I would almost rather leave him a note and file for divorce than confront him with this. OTOH...we were discussing the bill for his last CAT scan, which was 330 dollars, for the radiologist (a few more for the hospital). He totally freaked out. WHAT??? WHAT??? HOW MUCH???? I was like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. Then he goes, oh thank you, thank you for not telling me any of that while I was sick. I could NOT have handled it.
So I'm thinking...I knew that. He couldn't handle anything. He's been talking a lot lately about how bad it was for him, about how he couldn't cope with having cancer and going thru treatment. Of course all during that time he told everyone that he "didn't even think about it." I was frequently told by others how incredible he was, how great he handled it, blah blah blah. How much faith he had!! I'm like...are you f'ing KIDDING ME??
Anyway, I was in a flat out panic before I started typing this...but now I'm thinking...wait. This is not that bad. He has to accept the situation. It is what it is. We can start over. But I still feel like I'm going to puke.
I know I talked about this a long time ago, about going over this stuff with him, and then he was just so drunk all the time...well, I didn't do it. I haven't had the courage. So yeah, breakaway's a liar.
Please pray for me folks...because somewhere this rational part of me knows things will be better when this is finally taken care of. Even though he will bring it up every day for the rest of my life.
I forgot to say that this is another reason I have asked him repeatedly to go to marriage counseling. So we could talk it out with a neutral third party...and negotiate how to handle these situations...and he just won't do it.
Oh I know JUST what you mean about talking about it with a third party and also being angry now that he is starting to be nice.
And, just a small slap for ya. You don't know for sure how he will react so stop catastrophising!!!
Ha. thanks purple!
Okay, well things continue to improve. He's keeping to his word about the booze, and is gradually becoming a "normal" person. I just journal like crazy and that's helped with my anger, along with his consistency of being a friendly kind person. I used to say there was Good H and Bad H, and he's been Good H for a few weeks now. It's not that sickening stuff of oh baby I love you, sucking up garbage. He's just actually being a nice person. By that, I mean that he asks for things without ordering me around, he doesn't treat me like a child, he doesn't criticize, he asks about me and LISTENS to the answer, and he's quit being so damned irritable. He laughs. He doesn't pout.
I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop. You know, this big change in him finally getting off the Blame Wagon and getting his act together came right when I'd decided I'd live however I had to to get out of this situation. I never said anything and I don't think I was outwardly acting any differently...but voila, H has a change of heart. And I know from past experience that it's when I am happy and all is right in the world that he will pull the rug out from under me and have some kind of angry fit out of nowhere...that even he will not be able to explain afterward. So I don't know if I can ever really overcome that fear. But for now it's one day at a time and trying to live in the moment.
Alright. I have the day off today, and I am trying to get my paperwork organized. H wants to buy a car. So it looks like it's time to put all the cards on the table about the money. I'm having a hard time concentrating. I keep going blank. I have a million other things to be doing like taking my kid to a dr appt and getting everything ready for school starting this week and just stuff. I found myself walking in circles.
So I've GOT to get it together. <sigh>
Things change so fast around here it's hard to really keep my thread up to date. The weekend was full of the usual chaos, plus some.
Coach, you'll be happy to know I found a way to praise H for his "good behavior" ... I wrote him a letter, which I agonized over, since he is so unpredictable. I emailed it to him. Then he responded with some really bizarre "joke" that I didn't quite know how to take. It was weird. So I ended up talking on the phone with him. He hemmed and hawed around about what he meant, and I said, well, what I wrote was heartfelt, and he said he knew that and he did appreciate it.
He's taking small steps to do things like talk to me on the phone and just ADMIT things like, gee I had a bad day at work, and talk about it, instead of coming home, insisting he is not angry while verbally bashing everyone in the family until he feels better. I don't know how long it can last, but it is nice for now. I keep trying to give him positive feedback gently, as I've mentioned, sometimes saying something nice to him makes him angry too, or he brushes it off in some strange way.
We looked at cars, that came to nothing. We had some tentative money conversations that didn't go too awful. The only bad thing was he got busy Sat and forgot to do something very, very important for our son. When he realized this Sun (when I asked him about it) he TOTALLY freaked out, and honestly, I think had an anxiety attack or something. I won't go into the gory details...but we finally got it straightened out. We had the biggest breakthrough yet when he didn't blame me for what went wrong, and even said later he should have listened to me, instead of panicking. I am still in shock that he didn't blame me, for any of it.
So..he's better in one sense, but still kind of...rocky..in another sense.
We have been close and friendly since he HAS stopped blaming me for everything including death and taxes, he has stopped criticizing me, he has listened to me and for the first time in years, maybe EVER, has tried to make some kind of effort to give any sense of even knowing what I'm doing. He is almost to the point of actual...encouragement. But that may be too much to hope for. The day he encourages me in any way...well...I'll get a tattoo of his name. Just kidding.
Anyway...this has made me willing to be intimate with him. And, campers, I am the one initiating it, and he is very happy. He actually was tickling me the other day. It's like I became a human being when he stopped drinking instead of his worthless scullery maid. The main thing has been him finally dropping this hardcore sexist act he's been bludgeoning me with, he's stopped trying to be "the leader" (translated "boss") and he's started being a partner.
Before we got married we talked about how we were marrying our best friend. Then afterward, apparently "best friend" meant subservient docile "meek" quiet maid girl. while he walked around our house saying he was the king. (of the a$$holes)
Again, this person could return. In fact, it's quite strange that he can be this different. I swear he has two personalities. His aunt has said that about his cousin..that she's always been two people. So. For now he's the nice one.
Do I have my hopes up? Yes. Will I fall apart the next time he loses it. I don't think so. Those days are over. He'll never beat me down again.
Breakaway, You are leading right now. Your husbands sees the positive changes you are making for yourself. IMO the reason he didn't prfusley thank you for the note you sent is because he doesn't know how to get a compliment. Is he comfortable giving them? Chance to model good behavior for him again.
What would say the changes you have made for yourself are that are working?
Cheers
Coach
Well, he kind of doesn't know how to receive a compliment...but then again, he wants constant praise, like a little kid, for everything he does. Like if he makes a steak...he wants to be told how good it is...like 10 times. I'm not kidding. I always compliment him on his food...he's a good cook. But let's say I volunteer a couple of times how good it is, he will KEEP asking. "Do you like it? It's great, isn't it. It's awesome, I'm awesome." He's like that about a LOT of things. But all superficial things come to think of it. We go into the area of "feelings" and he acts differently.
What's different about me? Well, I've been working through a Bible study by Beth Moore that has been so instrumental in God bringing me healing. So, it's spiritual, I'm not trying, it's just coming to a very rock solid place of self-worth, of being defined by the Lord.
I saw this sign in a store that said "Always walk like you're wearing an invisible crown on your head." I thought that was funny, but I thought about being the daughter of a King, and that I don't need to walk with my head down.
This sounds silly...but when H would start getting critical and mean...which naturally leads someone to droop..I'd think, nope, you're wearing a crown. And I started lifting my chin up. My entire posture has changed. Even when he starts I calmly look him straight in the eye and he backs down. Can you believe?
I had a bug bite that wouldn't heal and I mentioned going to the doctor, and he (the hypochondriac) immediately started in saying I didn't want to do that, they'd do tests, that costs money.
Instead of getting furious, or dejected by this amazing devaluing, I stood up straight, looked him in the eye and said...did you just say I shouldn't go see a doctor?
Uh, um, uh...no...well, uh, I mean do whatever you want! You can go to a doctor!
But Coach...it's still a little scary. Because I don't know what's building up inside. It remains to be seen if will be able to resist trying to dominate me. His old weapons don't work anymore though. We'll see if he likes it this way, or if he gets more resourceful.
Well, he kind of doesn't know how to receive a compliment...but then again, he wants constant praise, like a little kid, for everything he does. Like if he makes a steak...he wants to be told how good it is...like 10 times. I'm not kidding. I always compliment him on his food...he's a good cook. But let's say I volunteer a couple of times how good it is, he will KEEP asking. "Do you like it? It's great, isn't it. It's awesome, I'm awesome." He's like that about a LOT of things. But all superficial things come to think of it. We go into the area of "feelings" and he acts differently.
Ya think that is how he got loved from his parents by "doing things." Is he comfortable talking about his ideas, dreams, and goals?
What's different about me? Well, I've been working through a Bible study by Beth Moore that has been so instrumental in God bringing me healing. So, it's spiritual, I'm not trying, it's just coming to a very rock solid place of self-worth, of being defined by the Lord.
That's goodness for you.
This sounds silly...but when H would start getting critical and mean...which naturally leads someone to droop..I'd think, nope, you're wearing a crown. And I started lifting my chin up. My entire posture has changed. Even when he starts I calmly look him straight in the eye and he backs down. Can you believe?
Yes, I believe do you?
You don't sound as angry as you were which is good for you and your family.
But Coach...it's still a little scary. Because I don't know what's building up inside. It remains to be seen if will be able to resist trying to dominate me. His old weapons don't work anymore though. We'll see if he likes it this way, or if he gets more resourceful.
It's probably scary for him too. He sees you changing and acting stronger, wiser and getting a spiritual life. He's changing as well. Keep praising his changes that are healthy and productive. Sounds like WOA are one of his LLs. Stay consistent and strong. You are handling it.
Cheers
Coach
Ugh, breakaway. I feel for you.
My H had some issues with alcohol and I thought that was bad until I saw big HUGE alcohol issues with OM. Sigh.
I'm not all the way caught up with your sitch, but hang in there.
Dia
Hi breakaway-
I'm impressed with how you're standing up for yourself now- I hope I do as well. I just started reading your thread, and until now I hadn't realized how much our H's are similar, their addictions are just manifested in different mediums.
I hope things keep getting better for you-
Bunny
thanks, guys.
So, anyone ever have a day where they think "I didn't sign up for this?"
Yeah, I'm doing better, yeah I'm standing up for myself, yeah I'm leading him, yeah yeah yeah. I don't want to have to be vigilant about "standing up for myself," I don't want to navigate every single thing he can't handle, I don't want to constantly have to "manage" this situation. I just want to live life. I tell myself every marriage has problems...but it just feels like I have a life sentence being shackled to this person with mental issues that WON'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. So it's up to ME to make up for it all the time. I don't want to be his damn therapist, I don't like having to GO to therapy to cope with HIM because he WON'T. Even though things have improved it's still ME doing the work, ME trying to manage the fallout of his utter childishness. It's a fulltime job. It's unequal, unfair, and it's never going to change...the circumstances can improve, but fundamentally that's only if I "do my job" successfully and manage him and the situation correctly. Is that what life's supposed to be about?? I would like to be able to relax sometimes, you know. In my own home, with my own family. But my H is too much of a headcase for me to ever be able to do that.
I'm venting because I just feel so aggravated right now. I know have to keep working on it, because I have to stand in the gap between him and the kids every day, and if we weren't together, I can't imagine how hard it would become for them.
Things kind of improve...and then they don't. It is very difficult for me to take a long view of it when I am still trying to heal from longterm emotional abuse, and he keeps doing it, even if it's not as frequent. I still find myself in tears in the night just from the strain of withstanding his stupidity when it arises...and it always involves the kids, so I can't just ignore it. He is sliding back into behaviors I cannot tolerate...blaming, paranoia, and martyrhood.
So, Improvements: Continues to keep the drinking waaay cut back. But I can see that even drinking a few beers makes him different...mocking, obnoxious, etc. He has also been a big help, and proactive, with handling the kids schedules and routines now that they are back in school. He is the morning person, I am the evening person. For a whole week he has been able to pretend that he will get them up and going and take them to school on his way out, since I don't go in to work til later. He's been very considerate since I'm learning a new job and this is our busy season so i am working a lot of extra shifts and sometimes work til 8:30 at night. I shouldn't say he's pretending he will do it, he WILL do it, but he's been pretending that he wants to, and saying that I am exhausted and can use a little extra rest in the mornings right now, and he likes to get up early. This was a huge deal to me, because he has always tried to get me to conform to him, instead of looking at how our differences could complement each other, he has insisted and even tried to force me to be like him. He also wants to go to bed at 8:30. But that's my good time, I help the kids with homework in the evening, get everything ready for the next day, supervise bedtime and spend time reading to them. H actually complains that I read to them.
So H has been this wonderful, loving, big help. I worked late last night. He got them up this morning, I got up too, but I didn't have to get dressed yet or anything. But he starts his snarky comments that HE has to do EVERYTHING. He was trying to mess with the dishwasher while cooking an egg, and I said I'll do that. Don't worry about that!
"NO! Then it won't get done!!" I'm like WTF?? He says, I asked you to do the dishes yesterday and you didn't do it!! Um..yes, H, I did do the dishes yesterday... He pauses before just going, Forget about it!!
I said, are we going back to this? That you think you do everything? I don't want any of your help if you're going to throw it in my face!
Then what will happen, breakaway??? [implication..nothing will get done] I just kind of raised my hand up like the "talk to the hand" thing and walked out of the room.
This is so typical. He INSISTS that he is going to take over mornings...then he gets furious with me because he's doing exactly what he said he wanted to do. And it's PARANOID. I do plenty. He does NOT do everything. This is just a sign that he is shifting into this other mindset of his. It's all a big setup.
Then he went on his usual rant about the kids and chores which is about half true. The kids were of course protesting that did do "some" of their chores. I said, look, let's write down a list of exactly what you want them to do, so there's NO confusion about what's expected. NO! he says, I don't have to write it down. They KNOW how to make me happy. Then five minutes later, he said, Okay, I'll write down and a list, and if they really want to make me happy, they'll do more than that. I said now wait a minute. You need to tell them WHAT you WANT and not tell them they have to do "more" to make you happy. That's not fair.
He didn't respond.
ha, he just called me on my cell, wondering if I'd called him. He thought maybe I'd called. right.
The other huge incident was my son leaving a team that he was struggling on, he's reached the point that it is "out of his league." He only continued to please H anyway. S12 was in meltdown about wanting to get off this team. H does nothing but complain about S12's performance. He told me he doesn't even think he can keep taking him to practice because "he can't deal with it." We had a semi-rational conversation about the effect H's attitude was having on S12 the night before. Okay, so the next day was the meltdown. I called H and told him, look, this kid is miserable. He really wants to get off this team. It's still the initial period and we can even get our money back. H just starts shouting at me on the phone...NO ONE IS QUITTING ANYTHING. He WILL play.
I told him it's not his decision to make alone. I want to talk about it! NO, he says, "I say NO ONE should ever quit anything EVER." (Well, that's reasonable, why have a discussion about a given situation then.) I started getting angry that he refuses to discuss it, and he says Oh I know you'll be on HIS SIDE!! I said, shouldn't we BOTH be on his side? So then he starts shouting Quit riding my ass!! How can you even call me and talk about this? I'm driving home from work!!
I hung up and told S12 to get dressed for practice because I didn't know what was going to happen. H stormed in the door 15 minutes later...leans over S12 who's sitting on the couch putting on his cleats, and starts SHOUTING...are you going to quit????!!!!! Are you going to quit????!!!! S12 starts crying. H whips out his cell phone and shouts I guess I'll call your coach and tell him you're quitting!!
I said, you need to CALM DOWN. Calm down before you do anything. Then he started shouting some stuff about how I need to stay out of it because I'm undermining him. I said, stop shouting at me. He said, you are making me shout at you. You got me all worked up! I told him no, you got YOURSELF worked up, I don't MAKE you do anything.
He finally got somewhat under control...S12 is in his room bawling. He calls the head of the program and they have a really long talk, and this coach is SO understanding and supportive. Says S12 is always welcome back, they love him, but he is struggling this year because he hasn't grown as much as the other kids. They hate to lose him, but think it's better for him to take a year off and not get so discouraged, that that would be really bad for him to suffer so much discouragement at this age, etc etc.
So H starts changing his tune. Talks to S12's coach, talks to his dad, etc etc. NOW H says, it would have been a really big mistake to make S12 play this year. Dad says it could have been a life-altering mistake. We made the right decision, blah blah blah.
I'm glad he came around, but what do you think S12 is going to always remember about this? I alarmed myself even by even CONTEMPLATING capitulating to my husband on this. I have to endure his contempt and hysteria to get from point A to point B. We'll get to point B, but not without this load of crap first.
I am proud of S12 though, because he and I had some talks...I am glad that even though he felt he was letting other people down, he told the truth about what he wanted and didn't let expectations stop him from doing the right thing for him. Nobody EVER taught me that. EVER. I'm just sorry he has to bear so much disappointment from his father.
Oh, I left something out. When I told him to stop shouting at me, his actual response was:
"I'm NOT shouting! You're MAKING ME shout at you." That's when I know we've taken a side trip to crazy town, when he contradicts himself in the same sentence.
Later I tried talking to him about how he'd acted, and he said of course..."forget about it." I said I'm not going to forget about it. He said, I asked for your forgiveness!! Forget about it!
You DID NOT ask for my forgiveness!!!
He said, well I said forget about it! He says he means he's sorry and wants my forgiveness when he says that. I said no, that means you want me just to forget about it.
He goes, FINE, I'm sorry.
Gee thanks.
Breakaway, Your husband could stand to read "Learned Optimism." It would help you understand him better. Goggle Martin Seligman and "Learned Optimism."
Keep pointing out his behavior, you are setting boundaries and he is noticing. Keep really listening. Keep your emotions under control. You are modeling healthy behavior to him. This is breaking years of patterns and defense mechanisms for him.
Make sure you have healthy outlets - exercise, prayer, support network, hobbies etc. To fill your own love buckets for the time being. You are being a positive influence. If you get down make a list of what you are grateful for.
Find another team or sport for your son to play. Let your son know you don't think he is a quitter. Ask your husband to apologize to your son for calling him a quitter. I would maybe ask this after you forgive your husband for his outburst/yelling at you.
Another resource is this for better communicating:
http://www.gottman.com/marriage/self_help/Cheers
LOL...I have the Gottman book. It says we're 95% likely to get divorced.
Believe me, I already have to edit myself, soften startups to all conversations, etc etc etc. That's called "walking on eggshells."
I think Learned Optimism could help him with his negativity...but when he starts getting self-contradictory and saying things that aren't true, etc. well, that's something else.
I left out another entire argument we had where he was making wild accusations and carrying on, and got mad at me that I didn't just say, "you're right, H." (he said that)
ME: But I did not do XYZ, or think XYZ, etc.
H: I didn't say XYZ.
Me: You just DID say THAT.
H: ...Well...I didn't mean THAT. I just say things wrong. You can't get mad when I say things wrong.
He told me he wants me to listen to him and go along with him. I said YOU need to listen to you. You need to hear the words that come out of your mouth.
That was the end of that conversation.
I will think about your advice..but the only reason I put up with this is because I can't imagine how the same scenario would go, say about the sports, if we were divorced. Then I would have no way to buffer it.
H: ...Well...I didn't mean THAT. I just say things wrong. You can't get mad when I say things wrong.
He told me he wants me to listen to him and go along with him. I said YOU need to listen to you. You need to hear the words that come out of your mouth.
"I am not mad, please don't assume you know what I think or feel. If you want to know just ask but please don't assume to know."
"I did really listen to you. That's why it is confusing to me. I can't just go along when you aren't communicating what you really mean. Can you understand how I would feel that way?"
I will think about your advice..but the only reason I put up with this is because
That is another way of saying you are enabling his bad behavior. Just do the right thing for you and your kids. Your husband is terrified of being loved. (If I remember correct his parents are dysfunctional) You need to show him what real love looks, feels, smells, tastes and sounds like.
Give yourself some credit. You are making some big progress.
Cheers
Okay, I'm done, at least done with this pitiful balancing act of trying to manage someone else's issues.
I emailed H and told him I will be staying elsewhere at night and coming home after he takes the kids to school. I'll be there with them all in the afternoons and evenings until the kids go to bed.
My best friend has left me a standing invitation to do this, back when he was drunk and raging all the time.
I have to get away from him.
I also told him I was asking him ONE LAST TIME to go to marriage counseling or a marriage weekend kind of thing. That if he said no, I would not ask again, and I would consider that to mean he is done trying.
So far no response.
Got a response.
He thinks I am just overreacting to a small situation and putting pressure on our relationship.
He says he's really changed and if I just would be mature about this we could work things out. I guess giving me the silent treatment for two days every time he imagines an offense is mature then. He went on for some time, basically blaming me for everything.
No mention of marriage counseling.
Be very clear and consise in your communication with him.
[b]He thinks I am just overreacting to a small situation and putting pressure on our relationship.
He says he's really changed and if I just would be mature about this we could work things out. I guess giving me the silent treatment for two days every time he imagines an offense is mature then. He went on for some time, basically blaming me for everything.
No mention of marriage counseling.
[/b]
Make sure you validate his points (changes, pressure) then point out his mind-reading and his behavior that causes you distresss (silent treatment and not addressing M counseling.)
He is very scared right now that you are leaving. Let him know exactly what your boundaries and needs are. Let him talk but don't let him project or mind-read for you. Don't let him bait you, make sure you have a plan for your triggers.
You can handle it.
Cheers
I haven't responded to him at all. He has since sent me three more emails. The next one said that I am just having an anxiety attack and what a great person I am and how loving he is going to be. The one after that was more of that. Then another one saying he hoped he hadn't made me even angrier.
I told him I don't know how I feel right now. I have to go to work.
I need to not talk to him for a while. I won't get home til tonight. So I guess I have time to think about it some more.
It's always like this. He can say whatever [censored] he wants about how he loves me right now...last night I calmly disagreed with him about something..he was taking his usual approach of "shoot first ask questions later" about the kids. And he went on a TIRADE...abut how I try to turn everyone against him ,a nd I'm trying to WIN!!! Then shut ME down and wouldn't let me talk, told me I couldn't say anything. I got mad and yelled at him, and told him he was acting like a three year old. Silent treatment.
I went twice and apologized for my part. Silent treatment.
Woke up to...silent treatment. (Of course the last time I got ST was when I told him he can't drive drunk with our children in the car.)
Then he called me from the car and blamed me for MY attitude, and that I'M mean, and basically projected all his craziness onto me, and said he is DONE fighting. He means, he can say stuff and start a fight. But then the fight is over. And I started crying and yelled you're right, we're done fighting.
Then the emails started.
I can't talk to him right now.
Well, I didn't even finish out the day at work. Every one who saw me just stared at me and asked if I was okay. I said I was on the verge of a migraine, which was true.
Still got emails and calls from H...he is so worried about me and my depression. He keeps telling me everything is going to be fine, we are going to be fine.
So now it's all about my depression, not about him. Funny how when I told him the doctor said I had depression he got angry and said he didn't think so. Crabbed about the cost of the meds...refused to comfort me and told me he had his own problems and couldn't handle mine.
Now, it's all about my depression.
Last night I didn't leave but I just sat out on the patio until I went to bed. I was off today. I didn't feel like doing anything, I just felt like lead. He sent me an email that said Good afternoon, Precious, hope you're resting and having a pleasant day.
Now I'm precious.
Now we're going out for a family dinner when he gets home. We haven't actually "talked" about anything. I don't really WANT to talk about anything because I feel like he's going to twist everything around on me again.
I should just leave. That's the only thing that gets his attention. But the kids pay for that. So I don't know what to do. I feel like if I soften towards him enough to talk and such that he'll say "whew" and then back to normal.
I did find a Retrovaille thing in my area in a few weeks. Thinking about it.
I am no match for someone who doesn't want to deal in reality.
He now refuses to take any responsibility for anything that's wrong or any arguments that happen. He has labeled me crazy, told me he's tried to support me through all my "depressive episodes and mood swings," (I started laughing), blamed me for every single thing that happens and for us even arguing ever in the first place. Jekyll and Hyde accusing me of mood swings.
Keeps telling the kids he's done NOTHING wrong and doesn't know why I get upset with him. (They looked at him like he's lost his mind.)
Of course, he refuses MC. I asked him what he was afraid of, he said how do you know the counselor isn't a lunatic.
He did say that I need counseling. I guess it doesn't matter if I go to a counselor that's a lunatic.
We have talked in circles for two days. I wanted to go to a friend's last night and he took all the car keys so I couldn't take one of "his" cars.
This morning I made an attempt at a truce to get through the day, and his response was for me to let him know when I was in the mood for sex.
I forgot to add that he gets S9 crying and tells him to find me (in the house) and tell mommy not to leave. Then he told S12 to tell me that he's a great guy and loves me and just wants me to love him.
How inappropriate is that?
I talked to the children and told them they didn't need to worry about the argument (we were out for most of it and the last of it was in the bedroom...I could have gone over to a friend's house without them freaking out about it, he MADE them freak out about it.)
I am no match for someone who doesn't want to deal in reality.
It shouldn't even be a 'match'. You are supposed to be two people who love each other trying to understand the other. I know it is so hard to do, but try not to get sucked in to nonsensical 'discussions' that go nowhere. It's just a big energy sucker.
Of course, he refuses MC. I asked him what he was afraid of, he said how do you know the counselor isn't a lunatic.
I have to agree that there are a lot of very bad counselors out there, as well as some very good ones of course. Maybe he would do the next Stosny weekend?
Maybe it's time to ask for a separation. You need a break, breakaway.
(((hugs)))
Is he still drinking? The only explanation I can think of for his kind of behavior is alcoholism.
Why would he go to a Stosny weekend when he doesn't do anything wrong? When he was telling me everything I do wrong, I said then a MC could help us with that, help with the problems you have with me. Nope.
He just wants to go back to pretending.
S9 had a frog he caught, and he is death to small animals, so I didn't want him to do it. After a few days, I said what's up with the frog? He said he let it go. I agreed that was the best thing.
A week later I find the "cage" it was in, with a dead frog in it. I said S9!! You said you let it go!!
He said...I thought I let it go. I guess I dreamed it.
I got very upset and angry with him. I said you did NOT dream it, you lied. He cried, he hid in his room, he did all sorts of drama, but he would NOT admit that he lied about that frog. He kept insisting that he dreamed it. I told him he was in far worse trouble for pretending he didn't lie, than for lying. I told him he HAD TO STOP PRETENDING.
I grounded him until he would admit it. It took him until the NEXT DAY to admit he knew he didn't let the frog go.
My H is pretending he's not abusive.
Is he still drinking? The only explanation I can think of for his kind of behavior is alcoholism.
You know...this occurred to me later. I was at work yesterday. He picked me up at five, and we went out to eat. He did have a couple beers while we had appetizers. It now occurs to me he was drinking before he came to get me. Not enough to "show" but enough.
Yes. It is enough. Retrouvaille would be helpful to you AFTER he gets into AA and is sober. The drinking explains the craziness. You won't be able to deal with him as a sane person until he is completely sober.
You know he's an alcoholic. You also know that just cutting back or whatever he said he did doesn't work for alcoholics. It's pretty much all-or-nothing, and there needs to be some kind of a program of support. Please tell me you didn't believe that his cutting down on drinking and subsequent improved behavior were anything but temporary, under these circumstances? Because that's part of the denial of the severity of the issue. You cannot work on the marriage issues without confronting and treating the alcoholism first. Whenever you decide you're ready to confront that issue, there is help out there. Until then, you're fooling yourself.
All of the talk about alcoholism is true to this point. But, unfortunately, most alcoholics don't decide to get help until something has forced them to evaluate their circumstances. Killing somebody, loosing somebody, both, and/or a court order. That's just been my experience.
IMO, he'll never get help unless HE WANTS TO; and I don't see that happening anytime soon. He doesn't think there is anything wrong with him. There will have to be a precipitous event in his personal life in order for Mr. Breakaway to seek treatment and change his ways.
BW, I'm praying that you'll find a way out of this and/or he'll get the help he needs.
Exactly my point. I just hope breakaway nor her children are injured in the process of that precipitous event coming about.
Hey Sweets, I feel for you. I remember all of this so well, it makes me nauseous to read your thread. The denial of your reality. The circular conversations. The blaming and accusing. The fear & insecurity that he REEKS of. The best thing I ever did for me was those 3 weekends at a motel away from him. If you need space away from him, get it. Your kids will be fine. Mine barely remember those 3 weekends.
Love ya
((B))
Sorry I have been away from reading other people's threads for awhile. I was curious while reading your about your experience to see what I could learn about myself.
I may see things that could help but don't want to risk putting more on YOU... I know the feeling, but I want to let you know that I have been getting support from spiritual practices as well and thought we might be able to help each other. On the other hand, you really need to hear is that your H has a problem that interferes with everything and it will take time and patience and practice to learn how to live in a way that most of us expect is normal (and not something that has to be learned and worked at). It is always up to you b/c you always get to decide whether or not you will stay with him or not - and that is his fear daily. He doesn't have the same choices as you right now... he is in a dependent state of mind with much less choices and he can't do what you do nor see what you see etc.
I just want to be supportive of YOU. His problem is not a reflection of how he feels about you and in fact if he could be in your shoes and observe himself he would be horrified - but he can't. He is struggling to hold himself together which is the stress reaction that you hear in his verbal interactions. Imagine you both speak different languages and come from different cultures and you don't know the other - now try living together and communicating daily with all your current responsibilties and what do you expect would happen?
Take care, have a restful weekend. Will talk later if you want to.
Okay. I am officially "done" now on the inside. Strangely calm feeling. It will be a long while before I can be officially done as I get my career going.
Had the opportunity to take a quick peek at his computer at work. I had an inkling that he might be quite interested in porn, but nothing to really go on. I thought I'd look at his History. DIDN'T HAVE TO! He had a link OPEN. It was really a nice one too. Two seconds to look at his History to see at least 10 other sites.
So basically, he lies, watches teenage porn, drinks too much, bullies his family, and tells me I'm not a good enough Christian wife.
W-h-a-t-e-v-e-r.
Sadly, the only emotion I felt, was...good, now I can divorce him.
I haven't confronted H and I don't want to. But at the same time I can't cope being around him. He's mr. perfect dad this weekend, he's cleaning the house. I thought, that's right, you can go ahead and clean it.
He asked me if something was wrong, if I was mad at him. Where do I start? With the absolutely degrading videos you like...I won't go into the details, but it was pretty upsetting the sort of stuff he was looking at. Or should I mention instead the instant messaging account that can only be for one purpose? To meet those "hot whores who want to f**k you in your town." Lots of that.
I just saw the links on Friday night, last night I looked them up for myself. Friday we drove in the car for two hours while he went on and on and on and on and on about HOW BUSY he is, that's why he's too busy to talk to me, and he's too busy for any of that computer stuff...no time for that, he's busy busy busy. He is SO BUSY!! Later that night, something came up in a conversation about lying, and he told the kids, The Breakaways don't lie. He stood up like he was George Washington and said I.Don't.Lie.
I just watched all this in disbelief. I said, what about the lie you told S12's coach last week? He looked at me in total surprise for a second and then frowned and said, NEVER bring that up again. Because after all, we're playing Let's Pretend, and I'm not playing right.
I don't know how I'm going to get through this day. We had plans to go to a really exciting event I've been looking forward to all year. But I don't know if I can play Let's Pretend today.
To meet those "hot whores who want to f**k you in your town." Lots of that.
I'm sorry he is into this.. I can understand how it would hurt.
I said, what about the lie you told S12's coach last week? He looked at me in total surprise for a second and then frowned and said, NEVER bring that up again. Because after all, we're playing Let's Pretend, and I'm not playing right.
His thought process: "That's right "teddy" don't be something I don't want you to be because that then gives me the right to be pissed...because you didn't meet my expectation and YOU made me mad".
you've been there done that.. bought the T-shirt. Glad to see that you can see through his script.
We had plans to go to a really exciting event I've been looking forward to all year. But I don't know if I can play Let's Pretend today.
I hope you can enjoy the event separate of your feelings for him.
((breakaway)))
Peace
Bridge
Guess what??? I'm sick and paranoid!!!
Who'd have thought?
He claims none of it is true...he's not doing anything evil, he doesn't PAY for it. He doesn't know HOW anything like this popped up. I said, ok, let's go down to your shop and you can show me what you're NOT doing, that you don't know ANYTHING about.
So after two hours of saying he's NOT doing it, he now says I can't look at his private computer.
lol
NOW I am sick and paranoid. I have problems.
I have a very big 200 pound problem, I agree.
Guess what??? I'm sick and paranoid!!!
Who'd have thought?
His response was actually quite predictable, no?
He claims none of it is true...he's not doing anything evil, he doesn't PAY for it. He doesn't know HOW anything like this popped up.
Wow, so he isn't doing it.
But even if he
were doing it (which he's not) there's nothing wrong with it.
and/or
Even if he were doing it,(which he's not), it's not porn if you don't pay.
And there's nothing wrong with doing what he is
not doing and
not paying for anyway.
Try not to spend any more of your precious time listening to nonsense. Go do something to move your life forward instead.
hugs to you breakaway.
You know....this could be THE equalizer in you sitch. By that I mean, he might cede some power (in his world) to you because of your knowledge. And knowledge IS power.
Stay strong and don't let his crap fool you!
I am sooo exhausted.
Well, after more fighting, I made him take me down there and show me.
He had confessed finally to looking at it, because ALL men look at it, and so what if he did, and everyone lies about it, but he's not a liar. Anyway, he swore up and down there was no live chat going on, and that he wasn't looking at what I was talking about, he was just looking at "normal" stuff (as defined by a man ) so he finally gave in and said he'd show me what he did look at to prove it.
That was fun. I broke his keyboard. Not over his head at least. Anyway, he doesn't have a messaging account on there, and he did show me what his "usual" site was, which was on one browser and he swears to God on a stack of Bibles that the other thing was a popup, which after picking apart his history seems to be true. There were some other sites he swears he did not look at and someone else did it. I said...you better find out who it is and fire them then. He kind of went blank when I said that. Anyway, it doesn't matter, they were the same as the one he showed me. "normal" porn. vomit.
He said he only does it "here and there" and after more arguing he admitted that here and there was a few times a week, since he only works five days then I guess that's almost every day.
At this point he finally apologized and said he'd never ever do it again. Which, well, whatever. Then we went home but I was still so mad, and he said he'd go to marriage counseling.
I left and went to spend the night at a friend's house. He was pretty upset about that but I said I just HAD to get some space from him for a while. I fell asleep over there but woke up at 2:30 and just wanted to be in my own bed, so I came home. Neither one of us could sleep so we stayed up the rest of the night talking in bed off and on.
The REASON I was so incredibly angry is not even because he was doing it per se...but because that's how was "unwinding" after work in the evenings, and then coming home and chewing all of us out if everything wasn't just how he wanted it. We should be making everything perfect for his highness who just spent the last hour surfing porn. It still makes me so mad I want to scream.
I told him he just keeps finding new ways to break my heart, and he was like, what are you talking about? What other ways? what do I do to you?
I also said it was the last straw that I couldn't take any more garbage from him after all the stuff with the drinking. The last straw?? What am I talking about?? What MORE could I possibly SAY to him.
On the way home I'd told him anytime I brought up any of this stuff he told me I was demented or something like that. He said he did not. Then he said, okay, but he never should have.
So we stayed up all night, we're both exhausted. He said he knows he has a lot of problems and that he's fallen away from God and he knows he has to change, and that he has been trying. That he will not go back to the porn sites. I thought about a keylogger and then I just thought, no, I'm not going to spy on him or check on him, and there's ways around everything anyway.
So anyway, I just want to get through the workday. Our son's birthday is this week, I need to concentrate on that. I'm going to consult with an attorney. I haven't made up my mind about anything, but I at least want to get some information.
Meanwhile...well we'll see what happens.
Porn can be an addiction. We know he's an alcoholic--which is an addiction. You're not going to be able to get a handle on one until you get a handle on the bigger picture, and address the alcoholism as an entity in itself, as the source of behavior problems. Until that happens, you're putting bandaids over gaping wounds.
We have been talking and talking and talking and talking.
He's been thinking about all I said to him Mon night. Screamed at him is more like it. He said his guts won't stop hurting. I said, welcome to my world. Do you know how many times I've felt like that? I said all that tells me is that you're pretty weak. Because I've been tough enough to handle a lot worse for a lot longer.
He told me he's like all the men in his family and he doesn't know how to love. This has somehow broken thru to him that he isn't they guy he likes to think he is...that he really does go around in a pretend world where he's this great family guy and he's really not. And that for some reason over the last five years he hasn't been able to cope with being a husband and father, and that's not our fault, it's him.
We talked about the cancer, and i said nothing brings us closer
together...it's like in his memory I wasn't even there. Instead of us supporting each other, it was the opposite. He said he did what his family does, he put it on his own shoulders to tough it out and do it alone and yes, he did push me away.
I said when you push people away...THEY GO AWAY. I said you can't throw your hands up in surprise now and say, where are you going???!! He said he is understanding that now.
We talked about a lot more. He said he's been trying and I seem to just be getting farther away, and that I am turning into him now (lol). I said I knew that was happening but it's so hard for me to trust him emotionally.
There was a lot more but I dont' have time to write anymore.
breakaway...I don't have any words of wisdom but just wanted you to know I am reading along and praying for you. Regardless of all of your H's back-peddling and going back to the same old tirades, I can also see glimmers of possible change in some of your threads. The key seems to be, from the outside, that when YOU stand your ground and are not afraid of him, he does respond and actually listen to you. Of course, real change for him will take a long long time and will likely be painful for both of you, so its still up to you to decide whether you want to stick around for it or not!
((B))
Just wanted to let you know that I am following along even if I don't always post. I ditto dancequeen. I have the same experience of seeing my H listen when I am strong and stand my ground -but it is also very tiring and difficult emotionally to keep up. With God all things are possible but not without a lot of hard work sometimes. Your choice. What are your intentions in the R and what choices will further those intentions and which choices will undermine them.
Lines of communication are staying open...he will even initiate conversations. Small "courtship" gestures happening. We were at an arcade for our son's birthday and the two of us played The Fast & The Furious for half an hour together. So last night he stopped at a game store and brought home some wild xbox racing game that was for US to play.
Last night he said two MAGIC WORDS to me..."I disagree." Not, You're wrong, or you can't say that, or you shouldn't feel that way.
Actually it did start that way...we were having a convo about a very touchy topic concerning the family business. And he started by saying You can't say that. I said, I can say anything I want. He said don't get mad, or you shouldn't be mad or whatever, and I said, I can be mad if I want to.
but we kept talking and then he AMAZINGLY said some things like well, I disagree with that. In a normal tone of voice. And he said, he could understand why I would feel the way I did, and maybe he should listen to another perspective that he hadn't thought of. So we talked it through, and it ended up being a very good conversation, where he understood that I just wanted him to CONSIDER what I was talking about and not be naive...and I considered his points and that maybe I was more worried about something than I needed to be.
we both talked about how confusing his parents could be, because they are so great about some things and then...well, they do very frustrating things and treat us like little kids in other ways. And he was able to understand that you can have TWO feelings about people. You can still love someone and be upset by something they did. It's not the end of the world.
So anyway, seemingly small things that are HUGE. And then I rewarded him.
So anyway, seemingly small things that are HUGE. And then I rewarded him.
Wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more!
H and I went out to breakfast this morning.
He told me he was going to talk to his doctor about seeing an ADD specialist. We talked some about that. I told him about a couple we used to know that are getting divorced, only because I had just heard about it.
He said he doesn't think "we" really have a problem, it's more like life stresses and circumstances and not coping with them well has led to our problems. And we just need to learn how to deal with things better.
Worked the rest of the day. A bill came in the mail that he didn't know about, so we had some more long discussions about that in the evening. I admitted to lying about it a few months ago with all the upheaval going on. It was an extremely uncomfortable talk, but he said he wasn't going to do what he's done in the past and tear me down, and that I've continued to forgive him and forgive him for his failings and he was going to forgive me.
He said understood that I was covering it up to avoid any more strain, and he was like, OMG, are you really that afraid of me? The issue was not ever what the bill was for, it was something he knew about (for our house), he just thought it was paid off.
Later he said, is this one of the reasons you've been so upset and wanting to run away and divorce me? To avoid all this?
Ummm...partly.
So much has happened and been talked about I can't include it all. But things keep moving in the right direction.
Okay...all has been moving in a positive direction, even when there was disagreement.
This afternoon I can feel the storm clouds brewing. He is getting more and more irritable. I don't know why. I asked him if something was wrong, and he said "NO. I'm in a great mood!" Which he clearly is not. Just trying to keep a PMA.
Most of his moodiness passed, but he still showed a lot of old behavior towards S12, criticizing him and just talking to him in that voice. Just dogging him for no real reason. S12 seemed to not take it personally. I could tell he was confused, but tried to let it roll off his back.
When we went to bed, H was grumbling about how S12 is screwed up, and not right, blah blah. S12 has trouble sleeping and this has always angered H in a way I can't understand. Like he's personally offended that the kid is restless at night. And has been since he was 2 years old. Anyway, it just worries me to see him slipping into that negativity.
That being said, I still decided that today is D-day. I am going to tell him everything else about the financial sitch that has occurred over the last year. yippee
I would like to ask for a lot of prayers from people today. Please.
You have mine.
Hugs,
Sharon
I found flair today on FB that says
Sometimes God calms the storm; Sometimes God lets the storm rage and calms His child.
I pray for calm for you.
(((breakaway)))
Peace & calm
Bridge
God is giving me calm. I listened to my weekly message from this ADD support site, and it was all about "summoning courage." Funny, I hardly ever listen to it. Guess I needed that this week. I've had a bunch of loose ends to take care of, and they are getting taken care of and I am feeling okay.
Today is my birthday, so I decided to wait til after. Not to procrastinate more, but I just didn't want to have a big ordeal on my birthday. H is being like the old H of long ago when we had some good times. He gave me a hilarious card today, one that's an inside joke between us. Wrote me a nice note. It's so nice not to have him rolling his eyes that we have to acknowledge my existence. And he got me my favorite chocolate. I've told him what it is a thousand times and he always always gets me something else. Today it was my fave brand. I think the kids helped him, but still. He has always had a propensity with anything, to ask you what you want, and then give you something similar, but different. It's weird. So it sounds dumb, but to find something that I, me, breakaway, prefers felt very special.
I guess I just felt like he was being...personal.
Happy Birthday- enjoy your day!
Also- I'm sure you know what's best for you in timing when to talk to H, but don't drag it out any longer than you really need to. A lot of times the dreading while waiting to talk is worse than the actual talking.
Hugs,
Bunny
Happy Birthday breakaway!
I'm so glad you didn't talk about finances on your birthday. That doesn't sound like fun.
I know what you mean about having your H notice and care about your preferences. It is special.
It sounds like a lot of good things are happening. I hope it continues.
Happy Birthday breakaway.
At least he made some effort. That is a good thing. Mine is in 2 weeks. I don't expect any effort at all. Good for him.
Kevin
((B))
Happy Birthday! Mine was last week - H didn't do anything except to apologize that things weren't good enough for us to go out for dinner. Nice... then the next day he gives me a BD card that talks about how I am his best friend, the one who has seen it all and is still there etc... how he loves more than anyone else.... please don't do me any favors.
Hope your day is great! Things are quiet and go well for you. Take things slowly. You are doing exceptionally well considering all that you have been through.
Hey.. just checking on ya...
did ya have the talk yet?
still praying for calm.. one way or the other.
hugs
Bridge
Well..things continue in a mostly positive direction. Some weird drama on my birthday. No time to tell the story right now, but it was primarily more stuff between H and S12. It ended differently though, with apologies and hugs and return to sanity. It makes me hopeful that the bad stuff is from bad habits and the sanity is recognizing it. I hope.
Today is the day I tell him about the money. I have a terrible urge to put it off til next week because we have to spend the weekend together...but I feel a very strong tug to do it today. I so want this sword not hanging over my head anymore.
I went for a long walk and prayed during it, and things seemed smaller and more reasonable to me. I mean, it is what it is. We made 25% less income last year so I had to use some of our savings and I used our credit card too. Not on high living. I didn't tell him to protect him when he was sick, and I stand by that decision. I didn't tell him after that to protect me, and I halfway stand by that too, as he was drunk for six months and I didn't know what to do. Anyway, I don't want it this way, and I want to have transparency on money. I hate this [censored]. I never wanted to "be in charge of it" all by myself anyway, and he refused to have anything to do with it.
Okay, well, the other thing was he sent me this email today...he said it really reached out to him, and he is printing it out to put on our fridge.
this is from
www.menatthecross.orgIt was extremely difficult to upset Jesus. He invented self-control, peace and calmness under stress. This was the day, however, when the scribes kicked over the beehive. To accuse the Holy Spirit that filled the Savior of being the spirit of Satan was the final battle cry. Jesus' response was that their declaration was unforgivable. His line of defense was as true then as it is today.
A house divided against itself can never stand.
That's why Satan will pull out all the stops to divide your house. The most powerful institution that God possesses on earth is a family, a home united in love and sold out to Christ. If you don't believe me, ask Ruth and Billy Graham and the kids!
So Satan whispers in your ear, "Your parents aren't being fair!"
"Your little brother stole your flashlight."
"Your big sister called you a liar behind your back."
"Your wife isn't all she ought to be."
"Your husband makes the same mistakes over and over again."
His list of accusations goes on and on for a lifetime. If you listen to him, you begin to believe him. Then there's strife; a wedge forms between you. If left unchecked, the wedge becomes bitterness, anger, fighting and eventually, you have just the thing that Jesus said would never stand ... a divided house. God's voice tells you to forgive. God's voice says don't judge. God's voice says be patient. God needs a house united.
QUESTIONS:
1. Has Satan been speaking to your ears lately to cause strife in your heart towards a family member?
2. As Christ forgave you, can you forgive them? Will you?
3. How can you contribute to a united family today?
LIFELINE:
Unite your family at all costs.
Good luck with that conversation. I hope it goes well.
Bunny
Breakaway, You husband is taking note of your growth, modeling healthy behavior and communication, and love. I think you are doing a great job. Stay steady.
Cheers
thank you...I feel a peace about it, whatever happens. At least it will be over.
Hey, hugs to you, I know I get emotional on your thread.
I just wish I could come pick you up and take you out for a great lunch and give you a big hug. You are worth so much more than you have even begun to realize, and I am really rooting for you to grow and blossom.
Breakaway, You husband is taking note of your growth, modeling healthy behavior and communication, and love. I think you are doing a great job. Stay steady.
Cheers
thx Coach. The last line of that email really made me think he is trying to do this: unite his family at all costs. Unite. For so long it has been "
control your family at all costs." I don't know if you remember me saying he has even said that, yelled it, If I don't CONTROL this family everything will fall apart. Which was making it fall apart!!
He's finally seeing that, and realizing, IMO, that he hasn't been controlling HIMSELF (alcohol, pornography, anger), instead he's tried to control everyone else. I wish I could write down everything that's been discussed since that Labor Day porn debacle. Amazing conversations.
I do believe him that he wants us to be "united" now, not under his thumb. When he finally saw his behavior for what it was. I used to get sick when he said, well, we're "one flesh" because in my opinion, I knew which ONE we were...him. I so hope he has come back around to seeing us as two united as one, instead of me being subsumed by him.
Okay, well, I covet everyone's prayers today. I appreciate it, and I do pray for so many of you.
p.s. I am going to buy that book Learned Optimism today. I think he might be open to it now, and I think it could help S12 too. The big birthday fight he started crying in frustration and said, Dad, people DON'T CHANGE. And my H almost started crying and said he WAS changing, and had already changed a lot, and that all of us could change and love each other again.
The big birthday fight he started crying in frustration and said, Dad, people DON'T CHANGE. And my H almost started crying and said he WAS changing, and had already changed a lot, and that all of us could change and love each other again.
I think your husband doesn't want to repeat his childhood. I have been praying for the whole lot of you here for over a year.
Cheers
I think your husband doesn't want to repeat his childhood. I have been praying for the whole lot of you here for over a year.
Cheers
I think he doesn't want to either. And I was able to tell S12 that too, and that while I understood his anger and frustration, I said, do you think your grandpa would have every apologized to your dad like that, do you think he would even now? And he said...NO. I said, your dad is trying. We were at a game, and his dad was off in the distance, and I saw S12 kind of soften his expression while he was looking at him, thinking about how his dad is at least trying not be as harsh as his own father.
I think sometimes H gets mad because he doesn't get any credit for not being as bad as HIS dad, if that makes any sense. And H's dad is a prince compared to the violent bastard that raised him. So...I guess it depends on how you look at it sometimes. One thing they tell you at al anon, is that even people doing a crappy job are still probably doing the best they can. Not to excuse them, but simply to understand.
The current sitch...
I finally gritted my teeth and started organizing all our financial stuff, and realized I needed to take care of a few things, some of which I couldn't do til today. An issue with a credit card company that needs to be renegotiated, which they did after I explained the last year to them (medical illness) and worked out a way to stretch out the last three medical bills.
I just about have all our ducks in a row now. I'm also realizing this isn't as big of a monster as I make it my own mind. Recovering from depression is pretty helpful in that regard!! Six months ago I was still in a pit I think.
Okay, we had a huge sports weekend with S9 and birthday parties, and all kinds of stuff, so I just enjoyed the moment and doing things with H. We are cooking together, organizing the basement together. Together. Without fighting. Without criticism. Got rid of tons of stuff...I'm getting rid of tons of bills, I'm feeling like we are shedding the past.
I fell sick with a cruddy cold over the weekend too...
I've spent a lot of time praying and feeling released from a lot of old garbage. And the eternal anxiety and just feeling scared all the time is going away. I had a strange dream last night...I felt like it was a sign that everything is going to work out now. I got up and journaled for a while in the middle of the night.
Some other time I will try to journal here some of my personal growth that I feel like is making a big difference. Right now I feel like closing my eyes though!
I'm thinking of moving to Piecing.
Hi Breakaway-
My H is often tougher on our son than I think he really needs to be, and S18 often feels beaten down after he talks to him. He is a lot more comfortable talking to me, and even though I may give him the same answer as H, he at least feels like he was heard. It has a lot to do with the fact that S18 is a lot like me- laid back and non-confrontational, and that irritates H to no end. I agree S18 needs to learn to stand up for himself more and speak up, and I don't want him to wait until he's 42 like me, but clobbering him verbally is not the way to go about it.
Were you able to have the money conversation with your H? That secret has been a burden for you. Hope your week goes well-
Hugs,
Bunny
I'm, uh, working up to it. lol
We had a R convo where we talked about feeling like we'd turned a corner. I have these last things worked out. So I am planning to write down everything I want to say, and then decide if I should email him with it, or tell him out right.
I am praying about what to say and when to say it, and I feel like God is leading me carefully right now. And I trust the outcome even if I don't like what happens next.
You know in the Bible, Queen Esther was very careful about how she broached a life or death subject with the king, and made sure she had a nice dinner for him first. ;P
I guess I will tell what my dream was about even though everyone's going to think I'm a kook. I'm not a new agey kind of person or anything. But I'd prayed about my life and being afraid to trust in any kind of "miracle" when statistically I should just get out. I am very afraid to trust him, even though he's doing and saying the right things.
But anyway...I fell asleep and then dreamed I was looking for some certain kind of plant, I was in the woods, searching and searching for a certain kind of leaf. And then some wild...unicorns...ran by. And I was like, no way. And in the dream I took a pic with my camera phone to prove it was real, and it was. In the dream I mean. And then I woke up and I knew God was telling me to trust HIM at least, and that things would be okay. He was giving me an ordinary miracle. Because the funny thing was they weren't big majestic shining unicorns, they were like ordinary old ponies with a little horn.
Now how corny and stupid does that sound. But anyone who has followed along with me from way back is probably laughing right now. Because I once made a big deal about how I live in the real world and don't believe in unicorns and fairies. Blah blah...and I love to be sarcastic about stupid unicorns now.
And...then I saw one. OMG this sounds so insane.
I just can't quite put it into the right context as it came to me. But anyway, hopefully somebody got a laugh out of it.
I'm, uh, working up to it. lol
We had a R convo where we talked about feeling like we'd turned a corner. I have these last things worked out. So I am planning to write down everything I want to say, and then decide if I should email him with it, or tell him out right.
I am praying about what to say and when to say it, and I feel like God is leading me carefully right now. And I trust the outcome even if I don't like what happens next.
You know in the Bible, Queen Esther was very careful about how she broached a life or death subject with the king, and made sure she had a nice dinner for him first. ;P
I guess I will tell what my dream was about even though everyone's going to think I'm a kook. I'm not a new agey kind of person or anything. But I'd prayed about my life and being afraid to trust in any kind of "miracle" when statistically I should just get out. I am very afraid to trust him, even though he's doing and saying the right things.
But anyway...I fell asleep and then dreamed I was looking for some certain kind of plant, I was in the woods, searching and searching for a certain kind of leaf. And then some wild...unicorns...ran by. And I was like, no way. And in the dream I took a pic with my camera phone to prove it was real, and it was. In the dream I mean. And then I woke up and I knew God was telling me to trust HIM at least, and that things would be okay. He was giving me an ordinary miracle. Because the funny thing was they weren't big majestic shining unicorns, they were like ordinary old ponies with a little horn.
Now how corny and stupid does that sound. But anyone who has followed along with me from way back is probably laughing right now. Because I once made a big deal about how I live in the real world and don't believe in unicorns and fairies. Blah blah...and I love to be sarcastic about stupid unicorns now.
And...then I saw one. OMG this sounds so insane.
I just can't quite put it into the right context as it came to me. But anyway, hopefully somebody got a laugh out of it.
I rememberreading that dreams are simply the way our subconscious mind interprets our unorganized thoughts. So its not all that kooky to attempt to analyze them. Its a window to our subconscience. Now if I could only remember my dreams.
You know in the Bible, Queen Esther was very careful about how she broached a life or death subject with the king, and made sure she had a nice dinner for him first. ;P
Wear something cute too.
I dreamed I was looking for some certain kind of plant, I was in the woods, searching and searching for a certain kind of leaf. And then some wild...unicorns...ran by. And I was like, no way. And in the dream I took a pic with my camera phone to prove it was real, and it was. In the dream I mean. And then I woke up and I knew God was telling me to trust HIM at least, and that things would be okay. He was giving me an ordinary miracle. Because the funny thing was they weren't big majestic shining unicorns, they were like ordinary old ponies with a little horn.
Now how corny and stupid does that sound. But anyone who has followed along with me from way back is probably laughing right now. Because I once made a big deal about how I live in the real world and don't believe in unicorns and fairies.
What a great dream. Thanks for sharing that. (BTW, did the unicorns in your dream poop butterflies?)
Ordinary miracles (and extraordinary ones) do happen breakaway. Sure, statistics can give you a sense of the odds, but trust what you see. Trust what you see him doing. If this continues, in time, you will come to trust your H.
Thanks Dudess...no, the unicorns were not pooping butterflies...yet. ;P
Tonight I felt what I would call "flickers" of previous behavior. There has been a lot of physical affection between us lately, almost like he's been away on a long trip and just got back, oh, and this time I missed him. ha ha.
Anyway, tonight a couple of different times I said, oh I want a cuddle. Which he ignored.. I asked him if I could sit with him on the couch, and he kind of made room for me, but didn't like...accept me into his space really. Now, he's always moaned about how I wont' come sit with him (usually after him ranting and raving at me), so I do this partly FOR him, but he's cool towards it tonight for some reason.
So I go about my business and not pay too much attention to that, went and did other things. We've both been looking forward to going to bed together in the evenings. The second time I'd asked for a cuddle he was like...now?? How about when we go to bed. I'm about ready for bed. Um, okay. Weirdness. Who says...now?? when someone wants a hug?
So I was in bed first, reading til he came in...he comes in, stretches out with his back to me, totally ignores me. So I kind of snuggled up to his back, I mean that was fine. But again it was this...not accepting me. Not like he pushed me away, but he acted like I wasn't there. So after a few mintues I rolled back over and he said why did you do that? I said well it seemed like you didn't really want me doing that. He said...nothing. Silence. I said, well, I guess I was right. He said...nothing. Silence.
Now this is flickers of his weirdness. I however, did not get upset like in the past. I simply said, you know, that hurts my feelings. A little more silence, then he says well when I go to bed, I just need to lay a certain way to stretch out my back. Whatever. Unless he doesn't? That has nothing to do with not shifting that tiny bit to accept someone's arm or hand, you know? I can TELL the difference, but of course he acts as if there is no difference. I'm not saying this to split hairs or be petty, I'm talking about some odd thing that comes over him.
It's hard to describe, but it's just a coolness, a strange resistance to what was perfectly normal yesterday. If he just wants left alone sometimes that's okay...but he somehow manages to be rejecting about it. It's bizarre. It doesn't feel like someone just wanting some space, it feels passive aggressive. And the double bind has always been that if I give him space he seems to be wanting then he will get mad at me later for doing so.
Anyway, my insides are kind of on alert now. But I don't feel all the pain that this behavior used to do to me. I'm just sort of watching. Just mulling it over because I can't sleep.
Don't think I'll be going to Piecing...read a few threads and due to my past I am apparently a person without morals or character, an animal, and dirt on the bottom of someone's shoe.
Soooo...guess I'll just stay here for now. I guess there isn't a rule about that anyway!
Are you OK? Did you have a fight this morning?
Oh, my bad. No, no fight with H. He seems a little moody, but I think he's annoyed because I'm sick. Always has hated it if I was sick. Whatevs on that. Or his parents are driving him crazy, or he misses booze, or he looked at porn again...see there's a million things it could be, so I'm going to ignore it.
Those comments were from me looking at some of the Piecing threads and there is a lot of extreme anger at some unfaithful spouses. I get that. I would probably be the same way. But I don't think that's going to be a good support spot for me. I'm not going to grovel for strangers' understanding of my own A. That I regret, have made peace with God on, and it's just not good for my progress to hear extreme putdowns of anyone who's made that very terrible mistake.
OK, thank you- I get it now... After all, I operate at that lower level than everybody else- LOL!!
You're funny. And it's been confirmed...his parents are driving him crazy. Noooobody ever does anything for them, blah blah blah. Sounds so familiar!! Anyway, he's back on track. I said just tell them what they want to hear and forget about it.
You're funny. And it's been confirmed...his parents are driving him crazy. Noooobody ever does anything for them, blah blah blah. Sounds so familiar!! Anyway, he's back on track. I said just tell them what they want to hear and forget about it.
teach him about boundaries and how they will help him deal with his parents.
You're funny. And it's been confirmed...his parents are driving him crazy. Noooobody ever does anything for them, blah blah blah. Sounds so familiar!! Anyway, he's back on track. I said just tell them what they want to hear and forget about it.
teach him about boundaries and how they will help him deal with his parents.
I'm hearing the theme music to Mission Impossible right now. lol
Well I'm tired and ready for bed...for some reason I've felt a lot of conflicting emotions tonight...I find myself getting off the fence I think and being committed to sticking this out, and yet that realization made me cry some. Because I know it's still going to be pretty hard. I guess things would be pretty hard no matter which path I choose. I somehow feel like a door is closing though, and I'm giving away the last hope for freedom. I hope I'm making the right decision. I feel like it is, but I still feel the tears.
A nice moment to tell about, when we went out on my birthday, I'd invited him to come with me to get some new art supplies for a project i want to do. He seemed to be happy to be invited. that was a big change for me, because I've set out to do those things, me things, on my own. But I asked him to come. I remembered why I don't when we first got there though, because he tried to get me to change what kind of brushes I wanted even after I explained why I chose them. Then he went and got an employee who, I swear, told him word for word the same thing I said about the brushes. So then he agreed. But the nice thing was I was explaining to the guy that I was a complete novice and I really didn't need anything special because it was for fun and I wasn't talented or anything, and my H said to him with sincerity, she's a really good artist, she just doesn't know it. I almost fell over!
The rest of the evening was fine, he wanted me to be happy. Then there was a crazy fight with S12 but he made it up at the end.
I'm tired. I hope I sleep well tonight. I know this alcohol thing isn't over. He's creeping back into drinking more, which I knew was going to happen. But he's NOT driving around. I guess I have to stick to the AA mantra One Day At A Time. I've spent time with my sponsor lately, and I get a lot of counsel from a recovered alcoholic guy I'm friends with.
Doing the best I can.
I need to step away from here for a while. I'll be thinking of all of you. Thanks for the support I've been given lately, it's helped a lot.
I apparently needed a good cry and a nap.
Yeah, I'm fine.
But I've spent a lot more time on here than usual and that's not always a good thing.
I've been sick with a virus and not sleeping well, it makes things harder for me when I am tired.
Thank you for asking. And now I really am going to go do some other things.
Breakaway,
Keep moving forward!!
I wanted to reply to you about the porn thing and my spiritual journey. I really just prayed my butt off, went to confession and finally found a priest who put it in perspective for me. I finally made the decision that enough was enough. After that I'm still tempted but doing much better. I believe porn is no different than affair because of the mental side of things. Its a tuff one to get over.
I will def keep you and your husband in my prayers.
Pray, hope, and don't worry. Padre Pio.
JJ
Check in with me when you can. Praying for you all and take care.
Uggghhhhh....
Okay, I'm off work today...I wrote out an email for H. Was going to wait a bit and reread it before sending and he calls me because the car loan people called about a pmt. Online pmt didn't go through, not a money problem, just an internet thing. So he called all mad, and I fixed it and then he realized it was okay.
So I thought well that's a great way to start out. So I thought I'd better reword my opening so he didn't think I was doing this in response to that. But meanwhile he tells me how stressed out he is and "anxietal." (He makes up his own words.)
I'm like..uh...yeah? And he goes on about his anxiety and blood pressure and that he had "some kind of anxietal fit" on the way home from work last night... he turned white and got all dizzy, etc. I asked if his parents were pressuring him and he said no, it was all just from work, he's trying to talk to too many customers and do more than he can do and he's just "over-f**king-whelmed!!"
So NOW what do I do???
We had a family dinner for his mom's b'day Wed night and I thought he was acting odd. I mentioned the other day he started slipping into some "weird" mode. I can't describe it really...but I felt some of this coming.
Also, side note, when I was writing to him about how difficult and scary it was when he was so sick, because normally he's so strong and active, I started crying. I haven't really felt anything about that, I was mostly just worried, but I have felt a bit blank about all that. But today I realized how awful it really was and I was just couldn't let myself feel anything then.
Okay, does anyone have any advice for me about sending him this email today?
What is the jist of the e-mail?
Okay, does anyone have any advice for me about sending him this email today?
What's the goal of your e-mail?
I'm like..uh...yeah? And he goes on about his anxiety and blood pressure and that he had "some kind of anxietal fit" on the way home from work last night... he turned white and got all dizzy, etc. I asked if his parents were pressuring him and he said no, it was all just from work, he's trying to talk to too many customers and do more than he can do and he's just "over-f**king-whelmed!!"
So NOW what do I do???
Validate him then support him, "I can see how thay would make you feel overwhelmed. How can I help you?"
There is a expression when you wait tables called "I'm in the weeds." Meaning you just got triple sat, order is up, and you need to run a credit card. So whoever was running a little slower would ask, "how can I help?" Just a hand to get you out of the weeds.
This is a very rough draft. I need to change it anyway. the way he's acting today is the reason I don't ever tell him anything. Something "funny" he said the other day...he was not mentioning something to his parents,not lying, but not mentioning it...and he was laughing and told the kids, hey the First Rule with Grandma and Grandpa is...Never Tell Them Anything.
So...it's not like he doesn't know this is also true about himself sometimes.
(If some of this sounds repetitive it's because he has ADD and I swear you have to repeat something critical a lot of times)
Hey hon
Hope your day is going well.
Have a few things to tell you...as you know our financial situation has been a little tight because of the past year. Very tight actually. Due to everything that's happened with the illness, etc. Do you remember what Tax Person told us at the tax filing? We made 25% less money last year. That's like X amount. We made X less last year!! And we had all those medical bills. Thousands of dollars. And we were still paying for our own health insurance until last Oct.
It was pretty scary when you were so sick..and you wouldn't take care of yourself when you were worried about money. I didn't tell you about the medical bills because I wanted to protect you. Remember when you told me you were so glad I didn't let you know that stuff? You said Thank you for not telling me!! You had so much on your shoulders trying to cope with cancer treatment. It was hard to see you like that, because you've always been so strong. Really it was almost superhuman the way you powered through all that pain and suffering. You had so much to deal with I couldn't add any more.
Anyway...we made X less dollars last year. With more expenses. It had to come from somewhere. I had to take money from savings. I know you already know this or you wouldn't have asked so many times. I had to take money from savings to pay bills. And I used our credit card sometimes too, just for regular stuff. Of course we were supposed to get that bonus in December...and then we didn't. Boy was that a blow. I thought that was going to kind of fix things, and we didn't get it.
So, we really have only X amount in our savings account. And we have X amount on our credit card.
There. Now you know. I didn't tell you when you were sick to protect you. After that...I was looking for a job...and, well, as you know, after you got off painkillers you started drinking very heavily, and I didn't ever want to tell you then either. And then it really looked like we were getting divorced. You asked me if one of the reasons I wanted a divorce was to avoid all this stuff, and yes, that is one of the reasons. Because we can't handle these things appropriately.
I apologize for lying.
Truthfully I dread ever talking to you or seeing you again after this email. But I am trying to get over that, because these circumstances COULD NOT BE HELPED. This is a bump in the road of a long life. There is a way to fix things.
I've already to talked to SoandSo, and we can refinance the house to a LOWER house payment, pay off all our bills, and repad the savings account to where it was so we have available cash. It still only makes our loan X amount, so it doesn't even prevent us from moving in the future. It's a reasonable solution. She said she and Youhoo have had to do the same thing a couple of times.
Okay, so I've told you. I know you're probably angry. I am tired of having this on my shoulders and dealing with all of it all by myself. When we didn't get that bonus was when my depression got so much worse that I really thought of killing myself. That's how much stress this has caused me. I would rather kill myself than tell you about financial problems. I'm stronger than that now.
Okay, well, sorry to dump all this on you. I'll talk to you soon.
This is really just like a...vent. I need to go back and edit it. So any thoughts?
What's the goal of your e-mail?
To confess, and to get this on the table, and to tell him before he finds out himself...
Validate him then support him, "I can see how thay would make you feel overwhelmed. How can I help you?"
There is a expression when you wait tables called "I'm in the weeds." Meaning you just got triple sat, order is up, and you need to run a credit card. So whoever was running a little slower would ask, "how can I help?" Just a hand to get you out of the weeds.
What if he says "nothing" or "I don't need any help!" which is what I expect him to say. I did send him a short email that asked that. we've had a problem that even when I try to be supportive or helpful he brushes me off.
I know that I am not going to be helping when I tell him the truth. He's going to have a meltdown. And not even because I didn't tell him but because he can't cope with anything.
If he is having a more 'anxietal' day than usual, I think I'd wait until a better time.
I think it's a good email. You explain what happened, why you didn't tell him, and already have solutions laid out.
You might want to consider adding something more about how he might feel having this sprung on him, "I understand why you might feel ______ that I didn't tell you earlier."
Good Luck.
I can tell you are much stronger now.
I have two observations one about you and one about him.
Watch your words, you speak in absolutes about your husband - he can't cope with anything.
About him, he doesn't know healthy coping, communicating or relationship skills. You mention it that he avoids his parents and grand-parents because they devalue him. He equates conflict, speaking about his feelings, and criticism with pain and fear. Even if you don't say it he equates your money situation with him being inadequate (a criticism). He is his own worse critic. He hides behind his pain by pushing you away.
I think your letter needs to be very matter of fact, not emotional, not bringing up the past and some possible solutions. Make the tone and information all about the financial situation and if he gets upset let him know that you are not upset or disappointed with him but that you want to partner up with him to find a good solution.
Stick to the issue and a solution. Show him good coping techniques, relationship skills and communication skills. Show him how to replace all that fear with love.
You know that e-mail seems very defensive. Reading through it; I believe you feel you did something wrong. But if I read this right, it sounds like you were taking care of things through some difficult situations.
It also sounds like you are expecting him to get mad. Perhaps you could take the "as if" approach and assume he will be understanding? You could at least ask for his understanding. I don't know your H, so you will need to make that judgement.
I would hate for my W to say she "dreads" talking to me ever. I would hope she would feel that she could come to me with anything.
Those are just my thoughts.
However, I am not sure how to make it
If he is having a more 'anxietal' day than usual, I think I'd wait until a better time.
I think it's a good email. You explain what happened, why you didn't tell him, and already have solutions laid out.
You might want to consider adding something more about how he might feel having this sprung on him, "I understand why you might feel ______ that I didn't tell you earlier."
Good Luck.
I can tell you are much stronger now.
I think his anxiety is getting out of control and I'm glad he told me about it. I think the next step is to use this opening and this weekend to talk about him getting some help. The last time he agreed to medication was when he had an anxiety attack all by himself that wasn't related to me or to the kids. IOW...it was all him.
If he could get this under some kind of control then the other issues would be a lot easier to handle.
I don't know how to talk finances with someone who just said "I'm so over-f**king-whelmed!!"
My mother's advice was to print out the email(whatever it says) so it has the date on it and put it aside so that if it comes up unexpectedly I can show it to him, that I was planning to tell him, but felt he wasn't in a place to hear it yet.
She's a clever one, my mom.
I have two observations one about you and one about him.
Watch your words, you speak in absolutes about your husband - he can't cope with anything.
I hear what you are saying. It's more like when he's in the grip of anxiety, he literally cannot cope with anything. He will say it himself. "Don't tell me anything, I can't cope with it." But I need to not think of him that way in general.
And a big part of this whole ordeal with money, which isn't new, is that he DOES want to leave it to me and then get mad if everything isn't how he wants it. He wants control but not responsibility. He wants me to have responsibility but not control. He told me recently that he was glad I take care of all that stuff, bills, etc, because he cannot f**king deal with it. Then he said I do a good job and I felt kind of sick.
About him, he doesn't know healthy coping, communicating or relationship skills. You mention it that he avoids his parents and grand-parents because they devalue him. He equates conflict, speaking about his feelings, and criticism with pain and fear. Even if you don't say it he equates your money situation with him being inadequate (a criticism). He is his own worse critic. He hides behind his pain by pushing you away.
I think your letter needs to be very matter of fact, not emotional, not bringing up the past and some possible solutions. Make the tone and information all about the financial situation and if he gets upset let him know that you are not upset or disappointed with him but that you want to partner up with him to find a good solution.
Stick to the issue and a solution. Show him good coping techniques, relationship skills and communication skills. Show him how to replace all that fear with love.
I'm trying. I didn't think of him feeling like he is somehow "less than" because of the money sitch. It's hard to with the flak that gets thrown up because of his feelings of inadequacy because it totally doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand. But I will approach it with that in mind.
You know that e-mail seems very defensive. Reading through it; I believe you feel you did something wrong. But if I read this right, it sounds like you were taking care of things through some difficult situations.
It also sounds like you are expecting him to get mad. Perhaps you could take the "as if" approach and assume he will be understanding? You could at least ask for his understanding. I don't know your H, so you will need to make that judgement.
well I do expect him to get mad. He says things like we better not have any credit card debt. We better not be in any kind of trouble. (trouble as defined as we had to spend money). I never want you to tell me something like that again.
This happened one other time, when WE had some credit card debt and I was terrified to talk to him about it, so I just kept putting it off. He was hysterical about it, even though he spent a lot of the money. Then later he said well, He did spend all the money. But I took my 401K money and paid it off. WTF did I do that? That was a long time ago, when things were worse.
Anyway, I did do something wrong, I have lied to his face about how much money is in our acct. More than once. Of course all he has to do is ask the bank, but he won't do that. That last time, when we had this issue of noncommunication over money, I told him I wanted him to have all the banking passwords and to look things up himself, keep himself up to date and then I'd never be tempted to cover stuff up. He refused. I mean, REFUSED to have our own banking passwords. OMG I have a bizarre marriage.
I am friends with a recovered alcoholic/addict and she said, yep, they want someone else to be responsible, and someone else to blame when things go wrong. I don't want that.
I would hate for my W to say she "dreads" talking to me ever. I would hope she would feel that she could come to me with anything.
Oh, he knows that. He knows for sure. He knows I'm afraid to come to him.
Those are just my thoughts.
thx. I like guy input. And sometimes when I try to clarify for someone else I clarify things for myself.
All of this really puts a nice shining light on how dysfunctional this relationship is.
He does exhibit some compassion for it...recently he found out I'd lost a diamond earring. This happened in the middle of treatment, etc. I was sick about it, but it was really a small problem considering what was going on. One day he asked me about it and I told him I lost it and he got furious. I cried. Then later he said...I'm glad you didn't tell me, I couldnt' have handled that then. Then...he said why do you do this to yourself? why do you carry this stuff around?
Of course he just answered that, but at least he felt some compassion that it's a nightmare carrying "this stuff" around.
It's hard to with the flak that gets thrown up because of his feelings of inadequacy because it totally doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand.
So here is how you handle it. Stick to the issue, he goes across the boundary - blaming, getting angry, ... whatever the bad behavior is then call him on it very calmly. "I am just bringing up a financial situation that we have. It's nobody's fault we are in this situation but I have a responsibility to you to make you aware of it. I also want your input on a solution."
Stick to his behavior that makes you feel _______________, then let him know. It's a win-win (yes, you will need to be consistent, calm and will qualify for sainthood) He sees you are not criticising him and you get some relief.
Coach, any advice on what to say if he says I will never refinance the house, for example. He gets really rigid and inflexible under stress...and I don't know what to say.
"OK, I understand you don't want to refinance. We have two options here. Increase income or decrease expenses. I know how hard you are working and that the economy is tight right now. So I know it's hard to increase income. So do you have some suggestions on how to decrease expenses?"
His FOO really did a number on him. Have you read up on irrational beliefs?
His FOO really did a number on him. Have you read up on irrational beliefs?
Well I get to experience a lot of them.
My MIL were down on our property recently (that noooobody takes care of) and there was some clover growing in the driveway. A quarter mile long gravel drive that had a
patch of clover in it.
She said did you see the driveway?? Didn't it just make you
SICK??
I said, well...no. I rubbed her shoulder and said, It's clover. We'll kill it. And she nodded her head and said okay. okay. but it just makes me feel SICK.
Well, THAT makes
me feel sick. Ai yi yi.
Last thing if you're still here...what's your opinion...do I approach him on the anxiety issue this weekend, and wait til next week (or later this weekend) for this finance stuff? I don't think he's very ready right now.
Last thing if you're still here...what's your opinion...do I approach him on the anxiety issue this weekend, and wait til next week (or later this weekend) for this finance stuff? I don't think he's very ready right now.
First walks in the door usually not good.
Make sure he is rested, fed and sober. Maybe tell him on Sat, "I need 15 minutes or so to talk to you about our finances. When is better ______________or ___________?"
You can handle it.
Coach
ps Have you seen Forrest Gump around? I wish I could see his face when he reads your dream about the unicorns.
I believe that I have singlehandedly brought Forrest Gump out of hiding. I have given him a new lease on life. I want you to know it took a lot of personal humility to post that story. I had to grit my teeth when I clicked on submit. lol
I've been thinking about Steve McQueen and his insistence that sex fixes everything, when actually, it's chocolate...but the men have spoken this week. I think I will hand him the bank statement while wearing lingerie and stilettos. And have fresh baked chocolate chip cookies in the kitchen. And a Chuck Norris movie to pop in later.
Thanks for everyone's help, it was good just to get my own anxiety worked out.
No, no, no - it is eating chocolate
while having sex that fixes everything.
Will you people please get it right??
LOL
Ughhhh...Well, H doesn't have any anxiety it turns out. I sent the Coach note, basically validated and asked what I could do to help and he said :
I think I am sick... Every since the operation etc... I have a hard time telling if I am sick.
That radiation did something to change my warning system.
I always feel a little tire and sick anyway. I have a hard time
telling levels of sickness.
I think it has to be a sickness in me and my body is dealing with it different than you and the kids.
I will be fine.
ummm...okay. We have coughing sneezing snotty colds. He has anxiety attacks. Bleeehhhhhh!!!!! This is so discouraging!!!!!
He does have a sickness in him!! Dammit.
Spinning wheel...keeps spinnin around...
Got off the phone with H. He is in a great mood. Working on a project with his brother (partner). They've been talking. H says he knows it's blood pressure/stress making him "sick." As soon as work was officially over and the phone stopped ringing he felt okay again. He said that's the way it was all week.
He said, "...well...I guess I'm gonna have to call the doctor next week. Brother said, do you want your head to blow??"
So in one sentence, his brother got him to agree to call the doctor and get medicine again.
For people who are newer to my thread...well, after the big showdown about 2 years ago when I decided I'd had enough and turning into a WAW...he got diagnosed with the anxiety and his doctor gave him Paxil. His behavior had dramatic improvement, enough that I stuck around even though I was sure I'd leave him anyway. Then he got sick and everything went on the course it's on now.
Of course he ditched the Paxil a while back.
OMG, if he will go back to taking it along with some of the changes he's been working at I feel like there's a much better chance.
I hope you H follows through with calling the Dr, that sounds like it would be a tremendous step for him- and your M. Enjoy your weekend!
Bunny
Ok (((B)))
So much going on, slow down and breathe! In trying to catch up I would agree with what Coach says about talking to your H and editing the email. I would also edit it down to a few sentences, after a while he probably isn't listening/reading anymore and misses most of what you are saying.
I agree with others that you don't have to apologize for what you did, the pt of focus is the state of finances and what to do about it now. If you/he wants to focus on your lying - save that for another convo b/c it will detract from what needs to be done now. Priorities. Lying isn't good - but focusing on it will not help to address the pressing issue of how are we going to live.
Take care.
Had a good time with the fam...spent some time with the inlaws too.
Some FOO Fun: We were talking about H's cousin, a woman, who is in the process of building a house. You know, with a builder. FIL went on and on about how ridiculous it is for her, a single woman, to be trying to build a house!! He just can't get over it. A woman doesn't know anything about building a house!
I finally started laughing and said...but...she's an
engineer. She has a degree in engineering.
He stared at me in surprise and then said...well, she's not that kind of engineer. She's just a plant engineer [for a gigantic beer company].
Even H was laughing. He's like that's right, breakaway, she just puts caps on bottles...
outside he said, hey, all you can do is laugh about it.
H and I had an interesting convo ourselves...he started getting grouchy and curmudgeonly himself when we were trying to make a fire, and I was getting aggravated as he was making his digs about stupid crap, and of course then he says I should just "laugh it off." His digs, that he admitted he made. And I said, it's hard to laugh it off when you aren't trying to be funny. And he got this kind of strange look on his face, and kept saying
I don't want to fight.
I don't want to fight. I said, H,
I don't want to fight either!
You are the one saying this stuff to
me. I said, YOU are acting like a Grumpy Old Man. The guy I married was fun, and funny, and social.
And he sat up straight and said...I WAS! I was that guy. I've lost that. I have to get it back. I said okay, then, let's get it back. He said okay. Then we went on with the evening.
He is so weird. lol
I think we all are. Sounds like some good things are going on. Keep it up.
I don't know if I have the patience for this. I guess I don't have a choice, patience or not. But I feel like I will never reach my goal of just living in peace in my own house. Instead it will just be the slow process of Chinese water torture. I mean, we've gotten the big blowups under control...but the drip drip dripping continues.
H has not called the doctor...he's thinking maybe he'll wait til his latest BP prescription is out and maybe asking the doc to increase it. Or maybe it's too much coffee. Yeah, maybe it's too much coffee. I can only learn this much after trying to talk about it in the most obtuse, beat around the bush way possible, because God forbid we talk about anything directly, because the baby might get scared.
Meanwhile the dripping continues...I got home from work around 8:30 last night. He had made dinner (yes I thanked him)...but the crap started immediately. Little crap, but drip drip drip. He'd brought me a belated birthday gift that was from my SIL... He says...do you ever get her a present? In this ridiculous contemptuous tone, like I probably didn't. I said, yes, I usually get her a present...her birthday was in Feb. I'm thinking...wth is your problem, for one thing, I buy ALL the presents and cards for every person in your family. Where did that come from?
Then he says something about how, oh...he saw S10's behavior slip by the way...again, in this accusatory way. And I said, yeah, I left it on the counter. In plain sight for you to see. He goes well you didn't TELL me about it. I said, he was talking in class. I forgot about it as soon as I signed it. I left it out though. After a few minutes, I said, I haven't even seen you yet today...I just signed that this morning. Silence from him about that. I mean, was I supposed to call him at work and tell him our son talked in class?
Then he says, like he's challenging me, are you going to go over all his homework?? Um, okay, I'm eating a taco right now. He says well you need to check online and make sure he did it all. Okay, boss, shakin a tree, boss. So I ate my taco, went down and checked the homework list...looked at my email and fb and a couple of things for a total of 15 minutes...and came back up and they had both fallen asleep on the couch. So I set the alarm to get up an hour earlier, read a bit, and went to bed.
This morning I am sound asleep...and he turns on the light and starts saying Are you going to check his homework?? You said you were going to check it. I, of course, am like..whaaat? He goes you need to get up and check his homework!! Then he gets in the shower, so I'm laying there for about 10 minutes while he showers trying to wake up a bit. He gets out of the shower and starts badgering me again...I said what time is it?? He says it's a quarter to six. You were supposed to get his hw list online. You didn't come up. What time did you come to bed anyway?
And yes, I lost my temper because I don't like someone blindsiding me and getting in my face at six a.m. I said, I DID get his list, I was down there for 15 MINUTES, YOU WERE SLEEPING, and I WENT BED AT 9:30.
Then I get the hand over the heart routine...don't shout at me. I just asked you a question. I said get off my back. Well, he says, I don't know why you are such in a bad mood...blah blah blah. I ignored him. Meanwhile S10 has gotten up and we sit down to go over his assignments. H comes back and starts again about how he didn't do anything, he doesn't know what my problem is, blah blah...I said I don't like getting nagged before I've even opened my eyes in the morning, you started blasting me while I was sleeping! Now leave me alone. He started saying something else and I told him to shut up. That was bad, I know. Then he went to work. Why he has to go to work an hour early this week is a mystery to me.
Now he keeps calling me about stupid stuff...hi sweetheart, I just wanted to let you know XYZ. I'm thinking, are you for real? I'm just sick of this. I'm sick of not being able to have an open honest conversation...I'm sick of him going into some kind of "a-ha!" mode like he's trying to catch me out on something, anything. I realized I had to spend all weekend trying to manage this crap...of course, I must always handle everything smoothly and without rancor and set my boundaries and be calm and mature and respectful and not do anything to upset the baby because then baby might feel bad about himself.
He was going off on some facebook rant again over the weekend, and says it's just a waste of time!! (my time) And I said well it's better than other things...and he gave me a look that could kill...I literally felt a trickle of fear in my stomach. And he said not to say that again. But he can bitch and moan and complain and badger about my every mundane move and whether he approves of it or not.
And there's no way to address it. I don't know what I'm supposed to do while he slowly drives me crazy. Over 1,000 meaningless small things that build up until I want to smack him with a bat. But he works hard. Brings home the bacon. Sometimes I think I wouldn't care if I never had to talk to him again.
There...that's my whining rant. Does he beat me? No.
Oh, and one of the things he wanted his "sweetheart" to do was drive down to his work and bring him his medicine that he forgot. So I guess that was the reason for his change of attitude.
All I can say is thank God for my job. I love my job and I love most of the people I work with. It's a very cooperative and fun environment.
Being at home just makes me feel sick. I'm tired of the amount of effort this takes. I know marriage is work, but managing the fussy baby's moods is really getting old. Especially since this baby is taking a really long time to grow up.
I am really not in a good mood.
You are doing well. I am proud of you.
Kevin
I've been reading Adult Children Of Alcoholics tonight...it does apply to other reasons for dysfunction...and it does apply to children of children of A's...and of course it applies to how all this is shaping my own children.
A lot to think about. It's just really really hard for people so affected to achieve emotional intimacy, even with help.
I've just felt frustrated to the point of tears today...I still feel like I can't talk to him about anything. We have these major crazy things happen and they are severe enough to break through and have a talk, but it doesn't mean anything. He goes back to the same stuff, I'm not "allowed" to say anything...then he's Mr Happy. I hate it. Tonight he's Mr Happy...I just want him to get away from me.
He's never going to be able to sustain the kind of changes I need without help he won't even discuss getting. Which leaves me, as always, back at square one.
Hi Breakaway.
I still feel like I can't talk to him about anything.
He's never going to be able to sustain the kind of changes I need without help he won't even discuss getting. Which leaves me, as always, back at square one.
I don't know your sitch well enough to give any advice other than to say that I have been told not to think in absolutes (e.g. anything & never). I wish I could give more help. I am wishing you the best.
Well today's about GAL.
Went for a long walk with the dog. I painted a little bit this morning. I went back to the art store and got a couple more things. The nicest guy works there and is funny and encouraging. Went to the salon and bought good shampoo. I am going to do power yoga this afternoon.
When I feel myself falling in the ditch, the best thing I can do is just go in another direction.
At the art shop I also bought some funny stickers...one was this gal laying on a chaise lounge with a long cigarette holder saying "I spend half my day BITCHING about the other half." Ahhh...had a good laugh at myself.
Hey Break-
I'm sorry your H is still stressing you out so much, I was really hoping he would follow through with the doctor like he said.
I hope the GAL activities help you feel better and re-invigorated today.
Bunny
((((breakaway))))
Peace, calm, & hope.
Bridge
(((B)))
All I can say to you is that is it hard. What may help is learning to set good boundaries - detachment - letting go of the stuff that doesn't matter and only taking responsibility for your own stuff. Can't do more. That is all that can save you - I remember the drip...drip... drip stuff - it would wear me out until I screamed and then H would walk out on me. Can't win that way. Remember - it is his stuff and you don't have to take responsibility for it.
You are doing great! Prayers are supporting you.
Continuing to try to focus more on me and things I can do..."the courage to change what I can" and that's mostly changing me. Taking more responsibility for things I should and taking more responsibility for making myself happy.
My high point for the day...the person that hired me for my new job told me I have been invaluable there, in front of the "big" boss.
Last night I was doing some housework, etc...and H jumped in to help..which then meant it turned in to a big production and arguing with the kids and on and on. Nothing is ever simple around H. A fight exploded between him and S12...I was sort of holding my breath...I mean, they're both looking at
me, like who's right?? Both with that look in their eyes, like..see??? See what he's doing??? Back me up!! And really...they were both kind of right.
Meanwhile I'm in the middle...in the unwinnable spot. I walked in the bedroom...H followed me...I started by agreeing with him, that he was right..but that he could at least listen to what S12 was saying. He said but HE has a track record for doing XYZ. I said, and he has a track record for not feeling heard. Well, H said he doesn't care about that. I said ALL HE WANTS is to be heard. Yes, he should do what you said, he should do it without arguing about it, but he just wants you to give him the benefit of the doubt and listen to him for 15 seconds without talking over him and telling him he's "MAKING EXCUSES"
when you don't even know what he said.
So we had the usual thing about how H should just give commands, and everyone should say yessir and do it without saying a word,
and they should do it without him saying anything in the first place,
and they should be HAPPY about it and be smiling and cheerful,
and should just clean the house and their room naturally. I said well it isn't natural. They have to be taught. But maybe we can teach them without all this anger.
Then I had to talk to S12, and he does always have something to say about everything (hmmm...) and I tried to explain what his dad was saying to him that he couldn't "hear" since his dad was just yelling and criticizing.
Then H apologized to S12 first...and said he is trying to learn how to be more patient and that it was going to take time and he couldn't do it overnight. He told him he loved him and S12 was getting older, and he didn't want to lose him, he wanted him to feel good about his home and his dad.
Then, he looked at me, and said sincerely, thanks for being the mediator in that situation. I was like...in shock. Because I think that's the first time he didn't seem to think I was taking sides when I was trying to actually...mediate. Then S12 asked if he could talk to his dad in private. So off they went.
Later I asked what that was about, and it turned out to be some questions S12 had about "the big change" (puberty)...so after all this drama, he then went in and had this father-son talk...so whatever was going on in S12's head, he obviously felt a lot of trust afterward.
So, it worked out. Of course, all I ever wanted to do was vacuum, and this stuff is exhausting. Any simple action can turn into a gigantic snowball of doom! So I have to spend my "off" time (away from them) doing things that rejuvenate the spirit. Which is what I am going to do now...
So I have to spend my "off" time (away from them) doing things that rejuvenate the spirit. Which is what I am going to do now...
Good for you.
Breakaway, You are modeling healthy behavior and communication skills. Be aware of what triggers you in these situations. He has never seen "healthy" before but it looks like he is noticing and responding. This helps him overcome those pessimistic thoughts - "everybody/nobody/always/never." You are showing him that it's not true. You are handling it.
Cheers
Wow- That did sound emotionally and physically draining, but you did handled it well. Nice job. I hope the weekend is calmer for you.
Hugs, Bunny
Good job, and I know how tiring seemingly small incidents become bigger than life. You have to pick and choose battles everyday. It gets easier. ie., you don't have control over the relationship your son and his father will have - but you do have control over how it affects you which ultimately dictates your involvement and the degree of disruption in your part of the world.
Have a good weekend.
Thanks Kass...yeah, even a normal day isn't really that normal!
Going away for the weekend...that usually is a nice time. Hugs to you and everyone.
Got through the weekend and a sort of big construction project with the inlaws...oy vay. They are even more mindnumbingly suffocating than H, and they drive him absolutely crazy, even tho he turns around and acts just like them.
Chinese. Water. Torture.
But I'm home now.
So it's been a pretty good week. H and I have had some bitching sessions about his parents, but just good kind of funny ones. Like, geez, they drive us crazy!! He has really changed in this area..instead of panicking if someone says ANYTHING the least bit "negative," he can just talk like a normal person. In one of our most recent convos we were able to talk about the fact that you can love someone and be aggravated with them. Or you can appreciate a lot of things about them and still be dismayed by certain other things. He was so stuck in the all or nothing mode before, and he had psychologically kind of "gone over to them" (I don't know how else to describe it), and opposite me. I feel like we are more of a unit again.
This morning he was talking to S12 about doing some kind of project and he said, well, son, there are lots of different ways to do things. Shocking coming from him!! Then he laughed and said, but there's only one RIGHT way, but he was clearly saying that in jest. I was in the other room but I had a big ole smile on my face.
To feel him lessening his rigidity is so great. Dealing with his dad all last weekend, and observing and talking about that very thing in him, is making some kind of impact.
He is taking S12 back down for the weekend and I'm going to do some stuff with S10. I'm looking forward to have some space really, but just for my own sake, not because he is driving me nuts.
I've done some 180's at home, just changing my routine actually, maybe not 180's, but changing up my habits. I've found it helps reduce the worry and anxious thinking. And I've delved into a new hobby and it's sort of addictive and is activating a different part of my brain. It requires a lot of concentration and that takes away from concentrating on my problems. Plus it's just fun. And it has absolutely nothing to do with my past in any way. Something new. New is good.
Oh! And S12 got begged to join another team that was really needing players...it's the next league down, so he's not going to be playing against his old team or anything. Due to being on that really elite team, he has a lot of really good experience, and will be playing with some of his friends again, and getting a lot of playing time, AND is good enough in this league they are also giving him a position on the older team too. So he's playing for the 7th and 8th grade teams. The best part was I took him to his first practice with them and we knew some of these guys from a few years ago, and they were overjoyed to see my son again. Even the dads. It almost brought tears to my eyes. Lots of back slaps all around. Got emails that they sure hope they can keep him. So it was wonderful turnaround from the scene that we had over him quitting the other team. His old coach emailed him and told him he was really glad he was back on the field and he was really proud of him. So H, is of course, happy as a clam. And realizing again, that things can work out better if you don't INSIST on sticking to a single course of action always, come hell or high water.
Reading that ACOA book is very enlightening, because that's a key trait...locking oneself into a course of action when it isn't necessary. More about that some other time.
Hope everyone has a good weekend!
Hi Breakaway,
Wow .. it seems like like things are definitely getting better in your situation. So very awesome!!!
Do you mind me asking what ACOA book you were referring to?
Thanks,
~Rustie
Rustie!! Where have you been? I've wondered about how you are doing.
The book is Adult Children Of Alcoholics. I will post some info from it later. So other people know, there doesn't really have to be alcoholism in the FOO for a lot of this to apply. Other kinds of dysfunction have similar affect. Alcoholism itself is probably the most chaotic however. And you can be the Child of a Child of Alcoholics, as my H is. My FIL is such a big factor in our lives that I was reading it to gain understanding of "the family way." It is filling in a lot of the blanks for me. And really, I am an ACOA myself, my dad was sober as long as I can remember, he had quit drinking when I was small, but he has many of the traits. I've been well-trained to be in this marriage (rolling eyes). And my kids are children of an alcoholic, so this shows me where the confusion for them can affect them. It's very good.
Update on my sitch....H went hunting with S12 for the weekend and they had a good time together. He came home in an excellent mood last night. He is being very attentive and kind and loving. Not just "not abusive." S12 confirmed that it was a good time and his dad didn't ride him about anything. S10 and I had a good weekend and spent a lot of time painting together. He's a good little artist, and I am turning out to have some moderate talent myself.
We need a studio. haha
We had one bit of static...I was discussing changing my meds with H. I don't ever talk to him about my personal business if I can help it, but I tried anyway. He responded like a normal person. Talked about maybe what he might need for ADD. We were cozied up on the couch, eating dinner and watching Deal or No Deal, lol. Then he says, you know when you started taking that med, your sex drive went away.
This is patently untrue..and stupid on many levels. For one thing, I started taking it last winter...when he had started drinking like a fish for a six month period, he doesn't even KNOW what was going on. Secondly, if I was ever not interested it might be because he was stinking drunk and could hardly do it anyway. And I did it with him anyway!! Like an idiot. Those days are over. Thirdly, the person with sexual dysfunction issues is
him. I won't go into the details. Although that can be a symptom of porn addiction and one of the reasons I was suspicious.
Lastly...and most importantly..he's made the same complaint and comment a thousand times over, for our entire marriage. We could have ML two days before and he'd say we hadn't in THREE MONTHS, BREAKAWAY!! He just makes this crap up in his head. I can count on ONE HAND the times I've said no to sex. It's the average once or twice a week, unless someone is sick or there is some kind of life chaos going on. Then he would get angry and say I didn't initiate it enough. So I would approach him and he would brush me off. No, forget it, he'd say. I once told him he'd rather NOT have sex so he could complain about not having sex, and he had a totally busted expression on his face...and got sheepish, and said, I guess I do do that. He seemed confused himself that he would do that.
Okay, I tell all this, because there is no merit to what he said, and furthermore, I think I KNOW what my sex drive is like better than he does. Again this is an example of him trying to define me. Now, I will say this...he said it "nicely" and in a non-confrontational manner. And he said, I'm not trying to start a fight or anything...but that did take away your sex drive.
And I didn't get mad, and I didn't explain everything I just wrote, and I didn't do anything but nicely reply, "no it didn't." He paused a bit and said..well..okay.
Then I changed the subject. Anyway, his behavior is a lot lot better. But there is still his undercurrent of thinking and defining me, but I know what's true about me so I am not going to argue with him about it.
Well. I woke up very grouchy this morning. I have poison ivy from our last trip to the country...S10 had a bad dream and woke up extra early...I am out of my caffeine source. Kids have school pictures today. etc etc I just felt totally crabby and overwhelmed. I felt like H was moving towards his Inspector General personality and I didn't want to deal with it. I could also tell he was put off by my mood...anyway, I left and ran down to the gas station to get some Diet Coke, and they were leaving when I came back so we waved bye. I needed him to open my soda! So that made him feel important, lol.
I went inside and he had left me a note. Said he was sorry I had poison ivy but he hoped it got better today and that I had a happy day. love, H and then he wrote "eggs and toast
" underneath..he'd left me eggs and toast.
That was something he read from Love Without Hurt and commented on...that if I was getting upset or angry that meant I needed help not scolding. That was a revelation to him.
Anyway, it made me feel a lot better. That and a Diet Coke ;P
Amazing that H could make me feel better and not worse. I will send him a nice email.
Thank God for Diet Coke! It is my energy source too
Your H turned your day around. Now keep it that way. Keep up the good work.
I wanted to post this list from the book Adult Children of Alcoholics...you can also be the adult child of a dysfuntional parent who didn't drink and may have some of these same traits. I have some of them, and my husband has some of them.
Adult Children of Alcoholics:
~guess at what normal behavior is
~have difficulty following a project through from beginning to end
~lie when it would be just as easy to tell the truth
~judge themselves without mercy
~have difficulty having fun
~take themselves very seriously
~have difficulty with intimate relationships
~over-react to changes over which they have no control
~constantly seek approval and affirmation
~usually feel that they are different from other people
~are usually super responsible, or super irresponsible
~are extremely loyal, even in the face of evidence that the loyalty is undeserved
~are impulsive; they tend to lock themselves into a course of action without giving serious consideration to alternative behaviors or possible consequences.
Hi, Break,
FWIW, my H is an ACoA. His mom sobered up when he was 4 or 5. One of the things that MIL that has MIL so livid with me is that 2.5 years ago when H was having some alcohol issues, he suggested I talk to her due to her years of experience in AA. When I tried, she lit me up one side and down the other for 'going behind his back'. The fact that he *told* me to talk to her made no difference whatsoever.
Ugh. Horrible day today. Poison ivy out of control. H on a nitpicking spree, though it's on the mild side. But this rash is looking infected and I couldn't get out of work to go to the doctor. Told him I'd probably try one of those Walgreen's clinics this evening and he got all huffy because that might cost more. 20 bucks. God, he makes me so mad. Barely bumped my shin on something at work and looked down to find big blood stains running down my khaki pants.
AND I got a parking ticket. That will just have to be my little secret.
AND I got a parking ticket. That will just have to be my little secret.
Is that healthy?
Last week was perfectly horrible, had to keep trying to justify my need for medical attention as if I were a dog, the outside dog, who we were trying to decide if it was really worth taking to the vet. I turned out to have a very bad infection, and lucky for me, I only had to pay my regular copay. So H, said oh, then you made the right decision (because of the copay). That all culminated in a gigantic fight because I didn't send invitations to my son's birthday party this past weekend, I called people instead. All of a sudden, sending invitations is the be all, end all of civilized life on this planet. It was too stupid to even go into.
THEN, we had a totally awesome weekend. We did a bunch of work on the house together, without acrimony, went to the kids' games, got everything ready for a big sleepover, had a big party, he got up and made everyone a big breakfast...we watched football the rest of the day. Just relaxed and pleasant and happy. The kids were super happy.
Looking back over the last couple of weeks...I think the pattern really is that even when things are going well, he starts feeling tension rising. He was feeling tension about having people over...the drip drip drip starts...fault finding over nonsensical things, passive aggressive remarks (what?? I was just joking...can't you take a joke?) Drip drip, pick, pick, until we have a fight. He was so relieved after this fight, I could see it. He needed it. I don't need it however.
He's done some good things though, he was great with the party. And he sent me a youtube song by email. He's never done that before. I've tried sending him songs or jokes or whatever, and he won't even open it. Says he doesn't have time.
But he did it, and it was really sweet and personal, about being there for someone. I gave him lots of praise for all the good stuff. I am glad it's Monday though, because he can be kind of exhausting, even when he's in a good mood.
Short update...we're trudging along. He's improved a lot...but his initial reactions to everything are always the "old way." And after long talks he sees what he's doing and we come back around to a more caring rational way. On a few occasions he stops himself first and realizes he's doing the negative behaviors and apologizes. On a few other occasions, I've asked him to use a different tone of voice with me, and he has given me the silent treatment instead.
All in all, I have to admit that I am tired of it. There is still not much relaxing and enjoying life, there is mostly just being prepared to manage behavior. Of course there is always something going on to add stress. My son broke his knee playing sports...my dad is having surgery for a newly discovered cancer...etc etc. I find I have to make a conscious effort to do positive things for myself or it is very easy to slide toward depression.
Good: H was able to offer sincere comfort over the sitch with my dad..
Bad: He has to nag my son endlessly about worrying about him eating too much or gaining weight while he's on crutches. S10 is having trouble with schoolwork though he is trying hard, and we argue quite a bit about how to handle it. He of course believes that the only way to handle it is to tell him what he's doing wrong over and over and over and over...because he says that's the only way people learn anything. And to discipline him when he forgets something. Needless to say I don't agree with that. I said that's the way to make someone a nervous wreck. (Like he is)
Anyway, I keep trying. And things are better. It's just very tiring.
Anyway, I keep trying. And things are better. It's just very tiring.
It sounds like he is trying too. Keep it up and I believe it will get easier.
(b)
checking in... what's going on?
Kassie