Puppy Dog Tails - DivorceBusting.com

Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

Originally Posted By: SteveInTN

I don't know where a lot of this "hard ass" advice is coming from in terms of "intel" and other stuff. Snooping and demands are not how to BUST A DIVORCE! Sure, the majority of those here have dealt with affairs. It is tough... But the militant approach is not how you save a marriage. You might put a stopper on the current affair but you'll be back here wondering WTF if you don't adopt the principles of DB.

Hi Steve,

I can only assume that you're referring to the advice that I and Phoenix have been giving to Helpers. I can't speak for Phoenix, but I did want to address this.

Everything I've quoted from you above is your opinion, as you do close out your post by saying. I happen to disagree, and my approach did bust up my wife's affair and save my marriage, as it has for tens of thousands of other people. I won't mention the names of the books or the website, as that sort of thing is frowned upon here, but these are HARDLY extreme positions. While they may be in the minority, it's probably a 40/60 minority.

I look for people who are struggling their approach. There are dozens and dozens of folks on both the Infidelity and Newcomers forums who are content with their passive approach, who seem to be holding up well despite it not going well, and those folks never hear a peep out of me. I try to offer advice that's different from what everyone else is offering -- a different perspective.

Helpers is, of course, free to follow it, or not, as he sees best for his own sitch.

For the record, I don't believe in "making demands." I believe in establish boundaries, and in learning how to enforce them -- two skills that will help most anyone, in almost any facet of their life.

Peace,

Puppy

Yes, I was referring to your advice. This is nothing new here on this site, the thing is, THIS site is supposed to be about people wanting to learn more about Divorce Busting, the advice of Michelle. She is quite specific, and correct for many people, as to the destructive behavior that "snooping" can be. It is easy to become obsessed with it instead of obsessing with trying to save the marriage, DESPITE the affair. I did state it was my opinion, quite clearly, just as what you espouse is your opinion. Not scientific fact.

Tens of thousands? Oh gosh, don't say something like that. You act like it is a ground swell or some sort of popular movement to "snoop". It is second nature my friend, pure and simple second nature. The "doing something different" route, for which a web site might be dedicated, is to NOT do it. There IS logic in not snooping! Same goes for the 40/60 thing. Show me how you arrive at that percentage beyond a guess.

The thing is that this is THE DB web site, and that goes against DB. I am not saying that all, or even the majority of the advice you give is bad, but you quite often jump to the "intel" and "affair" thing right off the bat. That is not DB'ing and can, using my own anecdotal numbers just as you have, lead more quickly to divorce than not. Let's face it, who knows (neither you nor I do) whether gathering good "intel" is the BEST way for any PARTICULAR individual to approach it. It worked for you, didn't work for me, and I'd be willing to bet you that my "intel" was better. You have no way of knowing whether your advice to someone to install a key logger, or otherwise snoop, is going to be the correct or incorrect advice to give that particular individual in their specific situation. You simply do not know...

So, how about we err on the side of the person whose site we are on? How about we err on the side of protecting the sanity of the person who is visiting this site for advice? That would be to follow the principals of DB, which includes no "snooping".

Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

Originally Posted By: Still Waters

Yep, same with me. My W's EA/PA started just as I was finishing up my project and starting to get back into my life. And the more I tried to engage my W, the further she backed away. Then about a month later she asked for a separation. At first I couldn't believe it. There I was giving her so much love and attention, and yet she was running away! Of course that was before I found out about the affair...

Which is EXACTLY why I'm in favor of gathering good intel at the beginning to find out what you're dealing with.

DB tells us to "not pursue" when a spouse is wayward. And I agree. So here's our friend Still Waters, trying to do what any good husband would do after having to spend so much time on a work project, and he's trying to pursue his wife and re-engage her more. As it turns out, it's exactly the OPPOSITE of what he SHOULD have been doing, but how is he supposed to know this???

For the life of me, I can't figure out why some people have such a hard time grasping that knowledge, and wisdom, and discernment, are GOOD things, and they help you know what to do, and what to pray about more specifically.

And yes, I guess that's an I-told-you-so. $\:\/$

Puppy

And having conclusive proof as to the specifics of the affair helped in what way? I have no clue how that can be an "I told you so". Reading his sitch it doesn't appear that discover of the affair and continued snooping has done, or will do him any good.

Bottom line is the same as before. How about WE defer to the advice espoused by the owner of this site. Urging people to "snoop" violates a pillar of DB'ing and undermines the state of mind required in order to successfully implement the other parts.

Quote:

For the life of me, I can't figure out why some people have such a hard time grasping that knowledge, and wisdom, and discernment, are GOOD things, and they help you know what to do, and what to pray about more specifically.

Oh, this part I love. Please explain to me how your "intel" (aka "snooping") equals knowledge, and especially WISDOM or DISCERNMENT.

Originally Posted By: Still Waters

But the day I discovered and exposed the affair was the first day that I felt like I had some control back. And it COMPLETELY changed the dynamic between my W and I. It pulled my W out of denial and made her realize that what she had done was terrible. And it has made my W take a long hard look at her actions, and realize that she doesn't like who she has become. And while it's true that so far our M is no better than it was before I exposed (one week ago today), my state of mind is so much better. Because knowledge is power.

So my advice to all newbies is to do whatever you can do to find out if there's an EA/PA in progress. Because it changes your approach big time.

Even had you know the affair was going on before, you would STILL be spinning your wheels. Knowledge is power? Did you feel better after your found out? How about if up front, you assumed that an affair was going on, without ANY particular details. Then, if you still want to save the marriage, you move forward with DB.

I hate to tell you this bro, but your journey is just beginning and biting from the fruit of the "tree of snooping" is going to be a curse that haunts you for some time to come. Unless you FORGET about the danged affair and start doing everything else you are supposed to be doing, then your marriage might very well be doomed. Because with that knowledge comes venom and hate... hard to repair anything when that is present.

With all do respect, Steve, I have to disagree with every single thing you said.

I discovered the A one week ago and haven't snooped since. A tad bit early to be saying that it hasn't helped me one bit, don't you think? And besides, my W has actually THANKED me for exposing her A. She was in denial and it was eating her alive. The woman was a wreck. She's still devastated, but at least she's now confronting her demons and has the support of her family as she tries to make good choices going forward. If I hadn't snooped and exposed she would still be a walking time bomb.

Yes, my M is no better. But it's been 1 week! And at least now my W is on the road to healing herself. She's back in therapy (with a solutions-based therapist) and she's talking to her family again. Who knows what that means for our M, but I feel better knowing that W isn't struggling alone with all this guilt and shame.

Did I feel better after I found out? In a way, yes. I found out that I wasn't paranoid and I knew why my W, a woman I loved, was in such a bad state. I knew why she had been breaking down sobbing every time I saw her, and I could take steps to try and help her heal.

And by the way, bro, I know darn well that my journey is just beginning. And I HAVE been doing everything else I've supposed to be doing. My main focus has always been on myself and GAL. I've gotten into the best shape of my life, things are going great at my job, I've reconnected with old friends and made new ones, I've read lots of great books, and I've formed a closer bond with my family. Just because I chose to bust up my W's affair at the same time I was doing all that doesn't mean I wasn't DBing at the same time.

I don't hate my W for having an affair. It hurt me deeply and she will have to work to rebuild my trust in her. But venom? Hate? Not even close. The day I exposed her A I told my W that I could forgive her and that I was ready, willing, and able to start working on rebuilding my trust in her. And that's still true today.

I have great respect for DB and DR, but there is no such thing as a one size fits all remedy for saving a marriage. You take what works for you from DR, and you use it. But that doesn't mean you can't look to outside sources for other ideas.

I dont recall DB/DR ever mention about NOT gathering intel so as to expose the affair. Once you have confronted and gotten the affair out in the open, then the snooping should stop for your own sanity.

Here is a great article (that mentions MWD) that I think speaks well for the advice that PuppyDogTails gives...

http://symcinc.com/getinformed/articles/endingaffair.html

I dont think the advice Puppy gives is anti-DB at all.

MWD has one chapter on infidelity which is good. But should we only be rigid and accept that as the only guidance? I found Glass's "Not Just Friends" to have much more detail concerning affairs. And Dobson's advice is good too.

Still,

I'm sorry if I came off as a smart ass to you, sure didn't mean to. So for that, I am very sorry. Please accept...

I don't see where you disagree with every single word I said. Maybe venom and hate was strong, but resentment will be a demon you have to deal with. Knowing in general terms of an affair is one thing, and I agree it is for the best. However, knowing specifics is a curse to someone on our side of the situation, and it tends to become an obsession. IMO, we ought to assume worst case scenario and move on from there. Not dig to determine extent.

Just stay strong and keep up the good work.

Steve

I see him advising to install key loggers, all the time. Once that is done, it is hard to stop. This is the truth...

Steve,

I wasn't aware you had been appointed as the Keeper of the DB Dogma. Kudos to you on your promotion and the purity to the catechism, but most of us here find it useful to consider other tools in addition to the DB/DR ones.

As for the rest of your post, I won't waste my time on a response. This is at least the third or fourth time you've personally attacked me, and I can't for the life of me figure out what I ever did to you, but I've concluded that this is YOUR issue, not mine. I'll let the body of my work stand for itself.

Puppy

I don't understand this either. Puppy has helped so many people here, me included. I do happen to love DR and I'm a huge fan. But I think Puppy is often or always right in his advice. Some of us become too passive and his suggesting more assertiveness is good advice. I feel his advice and DR have both been very helpful to me. And btw, I love Five Love Languages, too! $\:\)$ Karen

Originally Posted By: Puppy Dog Tails

No, this is the very FIRST time I have ever posted anything to you. You've never done anything to me, I just worry that off the cuff advice to snoop is going to cause pain for others. As for me being the keeper... Just because I don't jump on the "puppy band wagon" and agree with you, you've gotta go there. You have a very large ego my friend.

I said early on that I wasn't disagreeing with all of his advice, not even the majority. I just disagree with key loggers and other overt acts of snooping. I disagree because I know (first hand) the pain it can bring to the one doing it. It can be a destructive distraction from the real issue(s).

I agree with that. I'm pretty sure that Puppy always recommends you do it just to get the intel you need and then to stop b/c it is or can be painful. I've never wanted to know any of that stuff, and listening to it or seeing it in print must be very tough. Karen

That is all I'm saying. And I also know that once you start down that road, it is VERY hard to stop. When I was a newbie on this board about two years ago, the sages said "don't go there". That is what Michelle says too. That is my only point.

Steve,

I think you bring up very valid points about the damage continual 'snooping' can do.

I don't think Puppy would ever advocate someone collected intel to the prolonged detriment of their health/ sanity etc.... I wonder a bit if you are projecting your own experiences into the mix here.

I do actually think there is a bit of a difference between finding out where one stands and 'snooping' as such. I also see a fair few folks on these boards that spend hours, which then add up into days/weeks, agonising about what is going on with their S. Finding out might allow them to make a decision about how to proceed and stop waffling.

In my sitch I would have found it hard to gather evidence....in fact I never did because I was unaware an A was going on......but that didn't stop my M being a misery and it would have accounted for a lot of hurtful things I just couldn't understand that my H did, and it would have saved me some public humiliation that still scars my outlook on life and interaction with others IRL to this day. Do I wish I had known about these ways of gathering evidence? Yes! Would I have used them? Probably. I knew something was happening - just not what;I had to wait until my H told me.( I had fleetingly thought about him having an A but I knew that I didn't have any way of establishing factual evidence and that was what I would have needed to get him to open up to me - just accusing him would have caused harm and vitriol without any conclusion - let's face it; If he was cheating on me he was hardly going to tell me the truth until HE was ready). Could it have helped me to know - yes, I feel it would. I feel it may have well helped me sort things out sooner and caused less harm and hurt to my children and to my mental health.

Have I used any of the methods puppy has advocated since knowing about them just to 'check up' on my H - no. I am happy now that my H is totally faithful again and our M is on a strong footing; I have to trust at some point for the M to work. However, if things got like they had before, ( and I pray that with all the learning and growing we have done that couldn't happen), I would do what I could to find out where I stood. I wouldn't carry on 'snoooping' afterwards....once I had established what was going on.

This is not an exact science - surely you can see that?

I know that I have on some occasions rubbed another poster up the wrong way - I have never done it on purpose. I don't think puppy would either. We all carry our own baggage, and it is good to hear all sides.

I most definitely see that and I can't say that Puppy really rubbed me the wrong way. The majority of what he said was great, it was just some of the interactions, like the one that started all of this, that I took objection to. I am simplifying the dialog here, but not overly:

Person: I just don't know what is going on with my spouse, they are distant and cold. I can't figure it out. More of the usual stuff here...

Puppy: Could be an affair, install a key logger

I saw this on more than one occasion. My point is that it is NOT an exact science and depending on the individual, it can really be damaging to send them down that road right off the bat. Sure, I am projecting my own experiences but I hardly think that I am an exception to the rule. Personally, I have had three friends whom I had to beg off the road of "snooping" once they started, one being the W of my then W's OM.

My only point is that "snooping" or initial "intel" ought not be the the normal prescription nor should it be given lightly. It ought to be the exception, and it ought to be prescribed with a healthy dose of counsel on when to stop. Otherwise, it can easily become addictive and absolutely get in the way of doing the things one ought to be doing in order to try and save a marriage. I KNOW I am not off base here, nor am I taking this personally. I just feel strongly that newcomers here ought to be given good and well thought out guidance when it comes to dealing with things this important.

Again, My opinion....

Steve

"I just worry that off the cuff advice to snoop is going to cause pain for others."

I don't know that it is "off the cuff" advice. It somewhat depends on the "motive". DB.. does address this. It is a very "hard" line to follow. It has a lot to do with "your" frame of mind. For it to work.. it cannot be "vindictive" or "try to get them back".. "prove them wrong". You would be "guarding". It's hard to explain.. and I hate long posts.

"You have a very large ego my friend."

People that "know".. sometimes come across like that.. I have been accused of having a "Big Ego". But.. it just comes down to how you "see" things. Puppy's "Ego" can work. He has proven that. Will it always work.. No. Neither will my "Ego". That is the beauty.. of this "place". Take what you can.. leave what does not fit.

"Person: I just don't know what is going on with my spouse, they are distant and cold. I can't figure it out. More of the usual stuff here...

Puppy: Could be an affair, install a key logger"

You always have to start somewhere.. with a poster. Get a feel for where they are. Then maybe you can direct them. Don't hate the "player".. hate the "game".

We all (old timers) start somewhere.. and let the poster lead. Don't get drawn into.. they (old timers/random poster) are wrong. If they are.. or you think they are.. state your case.

Nothing wrong with that.

I like stand out people.. Puppy is one.. and you are too. Best I can tell you is throw some of that "Emotion" at a post. Discuss within the confines of a post.. it will be more productive.