hi all - DivorceBusting.com

hi...my name is shawn and
boy do we have some problems....i dont even know where to start.
we have been together going on 14 yrs now and things are starting to get rocky..
communication is down
sex is down
united front with kids is down..
there just doesent seem to be anything going right and i dont know what to do..
i feel like everything i say is wrong or at least im told that anyway...and i mean everything!! to the point that if i say something is black she will come back with its really dark grey or the like.
we argue about everything,and if amber gets backed into a corner with truth or logic she wigs and tries to get physical....i have never hit my wife but i will grab her and sit her down..she doesent mind screaming at me in front of the kids.
as far as sex....i am the only one to say or try to do anything.
she will set and tell me she doesent ever have any urges or fantasy at all..
im just starting to think she just doesent want me around..but when i ask her about it (which usually leads to another fight) she says that is not the case.
she wont agree to councel (doesent want to be told shes wrong or let me have a word in)
ive even gone through thinking bipoler or hormonal but getting her to a doc is out of the question too
i just dont know what to do anymore...
help please

Wow,

One of the few that hasn't been told by his wife that she wants out. That's refreshing.

First suggestion: Get the divorce remedy, read through it, and try to put some things into practice. Perhaps get "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman.

Second suggestion: The most important thing about divorce busting is to realize that it starts with you. What you wrote was entirely focused on what you wife is either doing wrong (nagging, being angry, getting physical) or not doing right (isn't having sex, going to counseling). If you look at her failings, you really won't get anywhere. Those are her issues. Want to help navigate those? Then do something different. Look at how you have been interacting and change it. There are things you are doing wrong; work to correct them. It's up to you because you are the one interested in change. So what can you do differently?

im sorry i didnt want to come across as bashing but
i have no idea like i said im wrong on everything...
even at the problems im seeing and the things i feel.
i have read so much over the past few yrs and nothing seems to work....if i try to get her involved then everybody else becomes wrong too.
i dont drink or do drugs
i dont leave the house for social activity with out her or the kids.
i do help around the house as well as bring gifts of affection home.
i do love my wife but talking to her is impossable anymore.

Originally Posted By: shawn&amber

i dont leave the house for social activity with out her or the kids.

Well, there's your first problem. That's not healthy, and I suggest you start your focus here. Do you know what "GAL" means, as it's referred to on here? "Get a Life" -- do things for YOU, that YOU have always wanted to do. Join a bowling team. Volunteer at an animal shelter. Meet some buds for a beer or to shoot some pool 1x/week (don't overdo this). What would you do if you were divorced? Do THAT.

I agree with Phoenix, you're WAY too focused on her -- right down to your username. This should be about SHAWN right now, not about Amber.

Puppy

sorry u misunderstood agian...i do have a life.i do do things on my own and have my own hobbies....what i ment was im not one to leave her with kids for hrs all the time while i go have a good time.
as for the screenname, im not the only one here. this is for both of us..she just thinks its not going to do any good.
quote "what the @#$! do they know"

Not a good idea either, in my opinion. She needs to do things for HER, and you need to do things for YOU.

You sound very enmeshed, or co-dependent upon each other. My wife and I were too -- VERY much so, and very unhealthy.

When you say "hours at a time," do each of you feel comfortable being able to go somewhere for 2-3 hours and do something by yourself or with your same-sex friends, while the other takes care of the kids? Say, once a week?

Puppy

Quote:

"what the @#$! do they know"

That's a good one, and I think reasonable to ask. I've been where you are. My wife has been where Amber is. Or maybe it was vise-versa. We've been through this. But honestly, Shawn or Amber, how many times do you see success by repeatedly saying the same thing? People do things differently (change) because they want to, not because they are told to. Sometimes it has to start with you though. Want someone else to change, you change first.

Michael Jackson may be a dork, but the song "Man in the Mirror" is kind of what you are shooting for..."wanna make the world (in this case, your marriage) a better place, take a look in the mirror and make that change. I'm starting with the man (or woman) in the mirror...etc, etc, yada yada"

The fact that you are "both" posting here is at least somewhat hopeful. Marriage can suck. It can be pretty bad. I doubt anyone on here would disagree with me. But if you've been divorced, you'd know that it sucks worse. And the next person to come along has problems too...you just don't see them at first (probably because we don't realize the problems that we bring into the marriage). It's all about perception...take a moment to ask yourself in these scenarios whether it's YOUR problem or YOUR SPOUSES problem. Do you have to fix it? Or can you just listen and try to understand without getting defensive (which seems nearly impossible for a man). $\:\)$ I like that you both are at least sharing this, even if we seem full of it. But we're cheaper than a marriage counselor and have been where you are (and maybe have a little experience). $\:\)$ Take care.

Me

No more fighting, period. If she says the sky is yellow say "Yea it does look yellow today". If she says you are a jerk and don't help around the house (even though you do) so "I understand why you think that, I haven't been all that nice lately and I do need to do more around this place". Agree with everything she says and that will help stop her anger towards you. It's not about right or wrong, it's about her feelings (not yours).

If you find yourself about to argue, remember to agree with anything she says or get out of there before you say/do something.

Don't pressure her for anything (sex, going to an IC, getting on meds, ect) She will resist anything you say. Avoid asking any more R questions, she'll see that as a form of pressure as well. Let her bring things up.

no problem with going anywhere with out the other...i reg go hunting for a few days at a time and have other hobbies and friends both shared and not.
guess the point was that im not one to run off and leave her with the kids all the time.
i do appreciate the comments but you have to understand that i cant seem to find anything im doing wrong.
i dont hound her,or ignore her...im just wrong on everything i say.
im not a wimpy "yes"man either. lived many yrs without her and could survive withouther just dont want to...
as far as both of us posting its just me....she thinks its just wasting my time.
cause there isent anything wrong

dont say or do anything???
just agree with everything she says?
how then do these problems get addressed and/or resolved?
or are you just tring to tell me there is nothing wrong and its just me?
is a relationship supposed to be like that?
i dont know....i mean i know my written communication and/or spelling isent the best. but i find it hard to belive im supposed to do nothing

So it is just you, Shawn, posting here? And she can read it?

To be very blunt, if I were her and read that you think that are doing nothing wrong, I would be very pi$$ed. Start focusing on yourself, listen to and validate what she says. There is not one human being in this world who is never wrong or does not make a mistake. And you are human, right?

Stop talking negatively about her, because it is unhealthy and causes more resentments in you (and her probably as well). Stop focusing on the past and look at every day as a new start. Do it just for yourself (and your kids), to feel better about yourself. Ignore what she says or does.

AN

Shawn, it's not a case of just letting her get her way with everything. Problems never get resolved by fighting about them. It's time for you to change your strategy on this. Was it not General Macarthur who said, "We are not retreating - we are advancing in a different direction."

It's a case of stop doing what so obviously isn't working. You'll be told on this site numerous times that you can't change your wife. Don't even try. The only person you can change is yourself. Read Divorce Remedy. It helps a lot.

i have been the only one to post so far. although she has been looking over my shoulder and snickering every now and agian...
one agian im the only one that thinks there is a problem.
she is just fine thinking im wrong about everyting, even my feelings and needs.
still dont think you all understand...things like in mixed company...i cant finish sentences cause im wrong..it has gotten to the point that im waiting for her to start cutting my food.
i dont know...maybe im am all at fault maybe i am looking for something different. i dont know anymore

Shawn,

We DO understand. Most of us, in fact, have BEEN you.

We're just trying to get you to LISTEN because maybe we're further down the path than you are right now. You have a great opportunity to learn from others' mistakes.

Would you rather be "right," or fix your marriage?

Puppy

Shawn, for what it's worth, I don't think it's a good idea for you to be doing this with your wife looking over your shoulder. If she's reading this, you're giving her your gameplan dude. Not a good strategy in any walk of life. I'll repeat it again... you can't change Amber! Work on yourself.

Step 1: If she is going to make fun of your efforts to work on your R, you should stop posting in her presence. Either ask her not to read these forums, or post when she is not around.

She may be laughing, but what she doesn't realize is that she stands to benefit from the advice you receive here. If she thinks it is so pointless, ask her not to be involved in it for now.

Oh and stick around please. Based on what you have posted so far, you stand to benefit a great deal from the experienced people on these boards.

Step 2: Get "The Divorce Remedy" and read it.

I think the advice you're being given is sound. You aren't being told to do nothing, though it may feel like that. You are being adviced to focus only on what you can control- yourself. Doing the same thing isn't going to make things better, and since the only thing you can change is yourself...well, you get the idea.

Agreeing with her doesn't mean that you are giving up. It just means that right now you need to get your relationship in a place where you are both doing well enough that you can maybe talk and actually hear each other. The talks can come later, when you are more connected. That's my understanding anyway. Others can maybe shed more light on that.

I disagree with the advice that you agree to everything she says. There is a difference between agreeing and validating.

It's not, "Shawn, you are a jerk" and you say, "yep, I am". That's agreement, and it may be totally incorrect.

She might say, "I'd like to sleep with some other guy, in our bed." I doubt you should say, "okay dear".

Validating is trying to see her point. You don't have to agree or disagree. There isn't any reason to, it's what she feels. She (and you) are entitled to your feelings, wrong or right...that doesn't mean you have to agree with them. It's more:

Amber: "Shawn, you are a jerk".
Shawn: "Why do you feel that way?"
Amber: "Because it seems you always belittle me. You look down at me. You are insensitive to my needs."
Shawn: Listening, listening, listening. "I'm sorry you feel that way." If partly true, or unintentionally true, "I'm sorry you feel that way. I can see how you could feel that way."

Or
Amber: "The sky is yellow".
Shawn: "Hmmm" or "Interesting" or "That's interesting, why do you say that?"

agreeded...posting in front of her might not be a good idea..joined the site to see if we could work together to fig. out whats going on.
i am all for the idea that i could be doing something wrong..
in fact being as how i cant figure it out on my own im sure of it...i just dontknow what it is...
i really try not to bash her on any level on any subject..
but she will disagree with things after i put the proof in front of her so i have no chance when it comes to how i feel about anything...
some of the problems might be self centered---like..i dont think i should be the only one to say,do or try anything with sex..
but others like stoping the kids from rough houseing in public,,,where i think there being brats and she thinks there just being kids and im to stricked.
and once agian thank you all and i am paying atten.

Quote:

but she will disagree with things after i put the proof in front of her so i have no chance when it comes to how i feel about anything

Is it always necessary for you to put proof in front of her? It sounds to me as though you both want to win the argument...and you'll provide the proof to do it. Decide what things you don't need to win an argument on. Decide when the issue isn't big enough for an argument. If she says, "Thomas Jefferson was the 6th President", if it'll just cause an argument, then it isn't even worth correcting, is it? It's not worth arguing (or agreeing) that the sky is not, in fact, yellow.

The sex issue is a different matter. For the moment, I would consider that your marriage isn't even in a place where you can expect much. With women, it may be that she needs to feel loved, and loving, before she'll initiate. Has it always been an issue? Or is it just since things have been going south? There could be other issue at work here; depression, exhaustion, kids, doesn't feel sexy, doesn't feel loved, don't feel in love. Try to improve things between you.

Since your the one posting, how about listing a few things you'd like to see improve in your marriage, what YOU intend to do about it (your goals...don't list things your wife needs to fulfill, like "my wife will kiss me in the morning", etc), and how you'll recognize when things have taken a babystep in the right direction. How about for the next week you make an effort to hear her out completely on her gripes and validate her feelings about it. See if things change any.

im really starting to have a hard time following this....
i am the only one that thinks there is a problem...she is fine as long as i agree with everything she says and dont talk in public...
as far as sex...i guess its fine..she thinks its the mans job to come get it,i just wish she would try a little...anything to show me she even wants to have sex...sometime
she has stated many times that she has no fantasy's or urges at all "never has and never will" i just didnt pick up on it for a few yrs....
most all our problems started after our 2nd was born...its like shes a different woman altogether....and im not the only one to think so since she got fired from her job a few mths ago....well from what some of her coworkers called pms that didnt go away.
it is not like her,and not at all the woman i used to know..

i would like to improve understanding and comunication between us
i would like to have an hr alone that we didnt seem to get into a disagreement.
i would like to see her show an sexual intrest in me(at all)
i would like her to at least start using to same rules that she tries to give me

Shawn,
Since it seems that the male perspective isn't working, let me give you the female perspective.

Your goals all state what you want from HER. What are you willing to do, what are you willing to change. You can't change her, but by making changes in yourself, her reaction to you will change.

I can't speak for your W, only myself, but 2 small children are very trying to care for. Since most W are primary caregivers, maybe you should listen to what she is asking from you instead of always turning it around that the problem is all hers and none of it is your fault.

I have news for you. It takes 2 people to get M, it takes 2 people to ruin a M. You need to stop focusing on your W, and her problems, and start focusing on yourself. Have you read Divorce Remedy or Divorce Busting?

Please don't run away, but if you want advice on how to change your W, you are on the wrong site. If you want to save your M, consider what everyone is saying, working on yourself, and you just might be surprised by the results.

God Bless and Good Luck!

Shawn:

My man, welcome and put on your seat belt. This is going to be a bumby ride.

Sorry you are here and I'm with you. I am you only a few months further along. In fact we are all you and we are nothing like you. I know deep but true.

1st you can leave your wife today and life would be easy, so go for it!

If your still reading then you understand for some reason, you want it to work out. Great for you and I agree with you.

2nd, if you type it own it!

As I have been reading your stuff, you go back and explain what you meant by your words. It is ok to be open and honest, no one hear knows you and if your wife knows you post here, change your name and don;t let her know so you can be honest. Not a good idea to type and re type, just let it come out and the folks on this board will help. If not, don;t let what we say back to you hurt you. You are the man!

There is a nice lady, Sandi2 who has helped a lot of folks, she left this for me on my post, see if it helps you like it did me:

Here you go:

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to
make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say � get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don� t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren�t speaking, but don�t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

Let me know what you think so far! Good luck.

Twice-2-Her and meant it!

Twice Story

ya know its kinda starting to sound like no matter what the situation its always the guys fault.....
as i have stated my wife doesent seem to think there is a problem
i am the one not happy in this relationship...i am the one not being listened to...she has gone through a dramatic change and im not the only one who sees it...ie she got fired from her job for it.
everybody starts out with "what are you doing wrong??"
and im telling you i have done nothing wrong or different for that matter since we met..
i consider myself a fairly good hubby
i help around house.
i help with kids .
i give her time for herself.
i do have a life and a bis outside the house.
i bring gifts of affection.
i try to show affection although i usually get brushed off till bedtime. though i feel like she does it out of duty anymore.

and i dont follow her around like a puppy either
or hound her but i will stand my ground when she attacks...

we tried to get a mediator in between us but that lasted til she told my wife she had to let me finish my own sentences. then as far as my wife was concerned the mod knew nothing and couldnt help cause i didnt know what i was talking about. so if she wanted to listen to me it was pointless

so now if there is something im doing wrong please be more specific as im still lost

Shawn:

OK to be clear then, you are the one who wants to leave Amber?

She is happy in the marriage? You are unhappy because she nags on you, won't let you talk and is mailing it in, in regards to sex?

The I know I had it wrong if what I just typed is right. I thought she was threatening to walk out on you.

If you are planning to leave her, what does she say when you tell her?

Also how old is baby number 2?

Twice

right...im the one not happy she thinks everything is hunky dory.
but there has been a change in her our 2nd was born almost 3 yrs
now. most of our friends wont come over anymore.
none of mine will ever

she lost her job from flat out running her mouth to a v.p.

i dont want to change her into something new i want the old her back.
and shes not around now so i might be a little less nice about it.
but getting another screen name would be like i wanted to hide it from her..and i dont even want to get into that.
i dont ever say anything behind her(or anyone else's)back that i wont say to her(there)face...i just might say it a little differently $\:\)$
but yea its gotten to the point that im thinking about leaving.
she doesent care she thinks(actually says) i wont.
says in this state she'll get everything,and shes prob right.
but getting to the point that i might have to.
i just dont want to....there has to be something.
bout the only thing i havent tried is some heavy drinking and maybe a fling. (just a joke)...sorta

Shawn,'

Welcome and I'm sorry your here. i want to say that niether drinking or a "fling" would be the answer you are looking for unless you don't care about her, your family and your marriage. I suggest you read other ppls threads and see what OP have been through. Where they started and where they are now.

The bottom line is if you do a few things different, whether it is how you talk to her or do things with just the kids she will notice a change and wonder why. No one is saying that you have the "problem" BUT you are the only one willing at the moment to look into doing something to change the pattern. You have gotten wonderful advise at things you can do to get your W to notice you in a different way.

Here are 2 other possiable things to think about.

1. Your W may be suffering from PPD. Even though it has been 3 yrs since your childs birth it makes sense with the mood changes and frustration the your W has.

2. Go to IC to help with communication. By going, no one is saying it is your fault. Look at it this way. What you have been doing isn't working so change it!

Nobody is saying it is the man's fault, or it is something you have done wrong. Heck, maybe it is mostly "her fault", who really knows except you and her?

The thing about this site is, from my observation, people here are less concerned with who is at fault, and more concerned with what the person who is willing to work on the R is willing and is able to achieve. One of the underlying principles that people are trying to get across is that the only person you can really change is you.

Doesn't make sense right? She is to blame and the advice you are given is to work and focus on you...

It is more powerful than it appears on the surface. By deciding to make changes in yourself, you are not taking the blame for where the R is at, you are choosing to take the high road, sacrificing being "right" in order to break old patterns, and strengthening yourself so that no matter what happens, you can act less emotionally and with more dignity.

After reading a few of your newer posts Shawn I kind of get the impression that you're letting your W walk all over you. That may not be the case but certain things you said made it seem that way to me. Another book I would recommend you read is 'No More Mr Nice Guy' by Dr Robert glover. There are certain aspects of it that helped me. They also have a support site if you want to look it up. I found it to be a bit more harsh than this one though and a lot less sympathetic. If you go there, be prepared for some serious 2x4's being thrown at you from all directions. Sometimes that's what a person needs though. It all depends what stage they are at with their sitch.

Good luck though. Keep coming here when you need support.

Originally Posted By: spellfire

Nobody is saying it is the man's fault, or it is something you have done wrong. Heck, maybe it is mostly "her fault", who really knows except you and her?

The thing about this site is, from my observation, people here are less concerned with who is at fault, and more concerned with what the person who is willing to work on the R is willing and is able to achieve. One of the underlying principles that people are trying to get across is that the only person you can really change is you.

Doesn't make sense right? She is to blame and the advice you are given is to work and focus on you...

It is more powerful than it appears on the surface. By deciding to make changes in yourself, you are not taking the blame for where the R is at, you are choosing to take the high road, sacrificing being "right" in order to break old patterns, and strengthening yourself so that no matter what happens, you can act less emotionally and with more dignity.

The best and most succinct way I've seen this stated here is that "You're BOTH responsible for your marriage getting to this point. But since you're the one here, you get to go first."

'nuff said.

Puppy

Shawn,

I might have had it wrong also. I thought you wanted advice to help save your marriage. It seems you are saying to us, "It's my wife that is the problem and I need advice on how to change her into someone sweeter." Although, I thought I did try to answer that by saying that it has to start with what you do. Know what? She doesn't think a whole lot of you either. And you probably won't leave, she's right about that, but if she were to suddenly say that she was ready to get out, or you discovered an affair, I'd bet you scrambled to win her back.

Okay, I'm not saying to kiss her butt. I'm not saying to just agree with her and shut up (although I did see that advice, it isn't a long term solution to anything). I'm not saying give up who you are to please her. Make a decision on whether you want a better marriage. Then decide what you intend to do differently with her. It's not because we think you are a terrible husband, or it's your fault, but because you want a different result (don't you?). If what you have been doing the last several years hasn't worked, then try some other tactic. The book is designed for people like you, that are stuck in a rut. Get it. Read through it. See what you think. Start small...one little change in how you deal with her.

Originally Posted By: Twice-2-Her

There is a nice lady, Sandi2 who has helped a lot of folks, she left this for me on my post, see if it helps you like it did me

I have a thread elsewhere and spellfire sent me here to read this thread. I just want you to know that I really appreciate you posting this list of dos/donts. Some of these I have already tried (without knowing there was a list), and I have seen some improvement. I'll try the others on the list too.