My name is Rob, I am new to this site and it's forums. I'll try not to be too verbose but hopefully won't leave much out.
I have been married for 8+ years, but together with my wife since 1991, we have 2 young children: 7yr old girl, 5 yr old boy. We have had a very rocky relationship the entire time so it makes me wonder if our current separation is just a signal that it's time to move on. We fight alot: if I'm up she's down, if I'm right, she's left - it just seems that we've never agreed on too many topics.
We have been separated for a year but sometimes it feels like we've been separated for longer than that.
My wife suffers from depression also, has been taking medication for it for the past 4-5 years, she also had post partem with both kids and speaking to a counsellor, she was told that she may be suffering from some sort of biological depression that she has been dealing with all of her life and truth be told I have known her since we were kids ourselves and I can remember that she would regularly just shut herself in her bedroom and just lie on her bed and be sad for long periods of time.
We both come from broken or nearly broken homes, both had parents that fought regularly all of our lives and I guess we're just repeating those same patterns that we've learned all of our lives.
We both love our children dearly and that is one difference from our own childhood family lives: we make sure to tell & show our children we love them on a daily basis, make sure they know that they are loved and be very active in their lives.
Early on in our relationship I made it known regularly that I loved her very much and was afraid to lose her and was afraid that I would never find someone else if we were to break up. I had very low self esteem, didn't think much of myself and allowed her to treat me poorly and never really stuck up for myself at all and I realize now because of this past year that I am at fault for "training" her (for lack of a better term) to treat me this way. My poor self-esteem was a product of childhood issues that I've only recently faced & tackled and finally getting over. If I have to admit, my self-esteem is at a good place now (ironically when we are separated), I love myself, treat myself well now, don't let others treat me poorly, I hang out regularly with my friends now (whereas before I acted like a hermit, never going out at all), I go to the gym regularly, I'm in the best shape of my life and go shopping and treat myself to good looking clothes and make taking care of myself a habit & priority whereas before I didn't.
I made alot of mistakes at the beginning of this separation a year ago and looking back I think to myself (UGGG!!!!) how could I have been that way but it happened and there is no changing it. I begged her regularly to take me back, pleaded with her, told her I loved her, told her I would change, told her to do it for the kids (guilt trip), moved out of the family home when she told me to but continued to pay for every bill, mortgage payment and visited the kids as per her schedule and in the end did everything that would push another person away and communicated that I had no self-respect for myself and showed that I had no self-value by being this kind of person: many of the typical mistakes a grief stricken low self-esteem man usually makes when his wife no longer wants him as a husband.
This year showed me change quite a bit and thankfully most of it was for me but truth be told, alot of it was done to get her to take me back. Went into counselling for my childhood issues, went into counselling for people going through separation/divorce. Started going out with my friends more, started taking better care of myself and started learning to love myself and to value myself. How can anyone be attracted to someone who doesn't value themselves and respect themselves? So although the work I did on myself was originally intended to get her to win me back, the momentum was maintained because I realized I wanted to do it for myself.
I'm not perfect yet and I don't think that's the intention either, personal contentment and always pressing forward is the goal, not perfection (no one's perfect).
I did notice that when I stopped paying attention to her and hanging on to her every call, txt msg, email and answering to her every whim that I actually got her attention. She called me more instead of the other way around, txted me more, took my time in replying, made my kids a priority without always including her in everything we did. I now have my children half of the time, I have joint custody of them, I take care of them just as well as she does (if not better) ;-) , take care of myself and my home and don't focus much on her. Detaching is difficult because I do still love her and want her back but ultimately I want the fighting to stop and the real love to begin.
I'm not there yet but the other day when she came over to drop the kids off, she had a tear in her eye and appeared a bit misty, she told me I looked good and appeared to be doing well, I wasn't depressed anymore and it didn't seem that I was affected by our separation. She gave me a hug (a strong one, something I hadn't felt in years literally) and a small kiss on the lips before she left to go back to her home - if I didn't know any better I would think she misses me (I have never felt that before so it is very odd). Am I reading to much into this?
I have ordered the books and will do what it takes to turn this around, can one person really turn a marriage around when the other person has told them in the past that they don't love you, the marriage was mistake, possibly didn't love you in the past, etc. etc. Any ideas on her missing me as what i've shown above.
Any & all feedback would be appreciated & welcome, good & bad. I look forward to contributing more (and learning the abbreviations).
... rob
DOOD! Can one person turn a marriage around?? Read what you just wrote. You telling us you haven't read the Divorce Busting books yet?? While your situation is going slowly it sure sounds like you are doing a great job of DB'ing, whether you know it or not. There are plenty of people who would be so greatful to have their spouse react the way yours did.
It sounds like she DOES miss you or at least is having second thoughts about it all. I would say stay the course and the next time she comes to drop off the kids, if you detect the same mojo from her, invite her to hang out a little. Nothing heavy, invite her for an ice cream, or to play a board game or watch a movie with you and the kids. Anything light. Sounds like she is digging you, the next step is showing her it is safe to be in your space again. Think of it like trying to get a squirrel to come eat out of your hand. You want her to trust you, that you expect nothing in return. NO sudden moves. You just want the squirrel (her) to see you won't hurt her and that she can come back for more.
To me you sound like a natural born Divorce Buster. Keep up the good work and keep us posted.
First a few questions.
1. Is there or has there been anyone else involved with her?
2. Are you 100% committed to getting her back, or are you considering other options?
3. Are you willing to do the hard work even if she does very little, and not resent her for it if you do eventually get back together?
robx - you have been DBing better than myself. Newcomer - maybe you could give me advice instead.
I hope to be in your sitch by the time my separation is at the one year point.
The things that you are doing are working just great... keep up the good work.
@ downnotout, I wish I was a natural divorce buster, I wouldn't be in this mess then. ;-) I have ordered the books, haven't rec'd them yet but I will read them when I do. I never viewed it the way you put it, it could be a huge trust issue, can she trust herself to be with me and can she trust me not to repeat the same behaviors which drove her away. Seriously the hug lasted like 5min and to be honest it felt pretty damn good, I hugged her back, I didn't just stand there and take her hug, I didn't want to let her go but didn't want to appear clingy either. Could it be just physical attraction and nothing more? Maybe I'm just analyzing this too much, she always blamed me for being too damn analytical, I think she's right, I can't get it out of my mind. She has sent me several txts after she left, talking about the relationship and then she asked if I was playing games with her and I told her it's been a long separation and I have no intentions of playing games and putting on different faces for different people, I'm me, just me, not pretending to be someone else. Thanks for the advice bro, I'll take as much as I can get.
@ spellfire: to be honest I don't know for sure if there has been anyone else during our separation or currently that she is involved with, but to be truthful I don't think so, I think I would have noticed but anything is possible but my gut intuition would be no, there is no one else.
Am I 100% committed to getting her back? Good question, you know I was to begin with but the funny thing about being separated for such a long time, you are no longer attached to the idea, if it happens, it happens. Maybe that's part of my problem, maybe I'm starting to give up. But doesn't detachment normally bring that type of feeling or maybe it's just a poor assumption on my part. Do I want her back? YES and honestly not just for my kids, I do love her, I've always loved her, and I will continue to love her always regardless of what happens between us. But she has some poor behaviors that I'm not sure that I can live with without bringing some poor behavior out of me - is that a cop out to admit that or maybe just a failure on my part that I still haven't dealt with? I know I've read that if she treats you badly, just take it and not because you're being a doormat (because I was one for a long period of time and it isn't good for your self-esteem or soul) but part of not being a doormat means setting boundaries for how people can treat you, maybe leaving the room if she starts to treat me/talk badly to me instead of rewarding her behavior with my attention.
Am I willing to do the hard work even if she does very little and not resent her for it if we do eventually get back together? Another good question, I have probably done things in the past and used it against her (I did this, this and that - why don't I get credit for that?) I'm still improving everyday, not perfect by any means but much better. I am willing to do the hard work and maybe that's it, I need to prove to myself that I did everything I could to save this marriage and if doesn't work, I will have no regrets and can forgive myself for my past failures as a husband.
Quick question to both of you and anyone else reading: is it possible that her long hug & kiss isn't because she loves me, maybe she just misses a small part of me or maybe it's just a physical thing? Don't we all need some physical affection, don't we all think about it daily, heck I'm a guy, I think about sex 90 seconds of every minute!
another question, how do you deal with her family & friends that give her opinions to divorce, it's better, it's easier, you guys just fight all the time, etc. etc. Seriously, it's hard to compete with that, it's something I've struggled with forever it seems in our relationship, I could say the color is blue for example and she wouldn't pay attention but if a friend or family member says the same thing, she hears it and believes it, I hope my example makes sense. Am I showing that I'm needy if I want to listen to my opinions and give them as much weight as she does with her family & friends. Again, I can't compete with them, it's a huge struggle sometimes to hear her mention that so & so thinks this and she tends to agree but if I say it, it's like well I don't think so. Very frustrating to say the least.
she will also mention regularly that because we've been fighting so long and have experienced failure so long, how could she ever believe we could be different and have a successful, happy marriage? Again, how do you answer that? Do you just agree so that you don't turn it into an argument? Plus it's bad to talk about the relationship even if she starts to talk about it because no matter how neutral you try to remain, she keeps knocking the relationship down so much, you feel you need to do something to defend it or yourself.
Well it could be just physical attraction (you big hot hunk of man you) but so? She is physically attracted to you then. I really, really think you were getting through to her at that moment and that made the big hug happen. Be prepared that she might now go the other way for a bit. I can't believe you haven't read the books. You are doing all the stuff they say to do.
To me, she is noticing the changes and likes the changes but is not convinced. She is testing the waters. Like my friend the squirrel, just don't make any sudden moves. It's like trying to land a 20 pound catfish on 5 pound test. Smooth, steady, finess.
You are not copping out to admit your bad behaviors. If you get her back, you guys will work on you bad behaviors together. DO have boundries. You got stepped on and punked out last time because you allowed it. So you know where that got you. Do it differently this time. You have nothing to lose and your self-respect to gain. THAT is much more attractive to ALL women.
Yeah, she could hug and kiss you just because she wants some. Be glad she wants some from you. Live in the moment, enjoy the now. Maybe analyze a bit less. It really sounds like a window of opportunity (sp?) is about to open for you.
Thanks DownNotOut,
I am glad if she wants some from me, I don't think I was too much of a disappointment in that area and now being in great physical shape, taking care of myself, better clothes, different hairstyle, going out, looking & being happy & fun - may be these things are spurring some kind of physical attraction. I have seen her check me out and she kind of looked away but sort of smiled because she was caught in the act of looking. Last week when she dropped off kids, I was wearing a new shirt which she apparently liked, she kind of brushed her hand on my shoulder to brush away some imaginary lint or something. It's been a 1+ year separation, it could be just a physical thing. Again I'm being analytical, my brain is just working overtime on this one lately. What would I do if she proposes something like friends with benefits because she doesn't want to end the separation but is interested in me physically and wants to be physically intimate with me? Man that sounds dumb when I write it like that doesn't it? The male part of me says that if she wants that, take her by that hand, lead her to the bedroom and shag her senseless ;-) But then the other part of me that looks after my best interests say play hard to get and don't give it up so easily, don't be easy, make her chase you and work for it. Thoughts on this? Seriously I can literally see this happening in my head with her (and not because I'm just horny as hell myself while hiding very well).
she will also mention regularly that because we've been fighting so long and have experienced failure so long, how could she ever believe we could be different and have a successful, happy marriage? Again, how do you answer that? Do you just agree so that you don't turn it into an argument? Plus it's bad to talk about the relationship even if she starts to talk about it because no matter how neutral you try to remain, she keeps knocking the relationship down so much, you feel you need to do something to defend it or yourself.
Disclaimer: Promise I'm not sexist, same applies to opposite sex but I am speaking to robx here.
My W said almost exactly the same thing. You will never be able to convince her by telling her. Actions truly do speak louder than words. The squirrel analogy is actually quite good. Try explaining to a squirrel that it's safe to eat out of your hand, it will never work. Now you are dealing with a squirrel you have previously scared. How long will it take to earn back that trust, and will words make any difference whatsoever?
Getting into a fight I consider action, because once tempers rise, the words don't really carry as much meaning as the way you are speaking to and therefore treating each other (disrespectful tone of voice etc).
When she says things like that, I believe she is not telling you "the writing is on the wall" as much as testing you to see if you really have changed. Your job is to prove (via action ie. not overreacting to hurtful comments) that you truly have changed and you can pass any test she presents.
Think of it this way...you are a wall. Women need to know the wall is strong, safe, and secure. Previously she found the wall was weak and she was able to punch holes in it at will with hurtful words. The wall would crumble (react) for the most part. now you have figured out why the wall is weak and have reinforced it, patched it, braced it...however you want to think of it, but the key being you have truly changed. She has surely noticed that the wall that let her down before is certainly
looking much stronger. How does she know for sure though? She is gonna go test it out and see if she can punch those holes again.
Your job is to expect the punches, anticipate them and be ready to take them. Okay so here she comes with a good solid punch...
she wants to see if this wall is gonna hold for her...
"we've been fighting so long and have experienced failure so long, how could we be different and have a successful, happy marriage?" *insert batman style sound effect here*
Pretty hurtful thing to say to someone who is devastated by the separation. So what are you gonna do? React and get in a fight (old crumbly wall) or (knowing it is a test of your resolve and not necessary an assessment of the relationship) stand strong and prove you are no longer going to get sucked into the old patterns?
You asked if you have to agree so as to avoid conflict, and said it's hard to remain neutral when she's knocking the R so much. Reframe that assumption. She is not knocking the relationship, she is testing your resolve to truly be a different person.
When these kinds of comments come up, don't get mad. Realize you are "talking a little test". Feel those competitive instincts kicking in? You can pass this test. If you recognize it as a test of your resolve it doesn't feel nearly as bad. This has helped me tremendously in my R. I used to get sooo defensive, now I can defuse just about anything she throws at me. Not only is it a test to me, it has almost become a thrill, because it feels so good when you see the surprise on her face that you did not fall back into the old habits. One time my W got really upset, since she made all kinds of assumptions about how I would handle a certain situation. I stood strong, explained to her my position as she fought the tears, then without even asking or telling her, went over and gave her a big follow up hug. Minutes later she was on the phone taking care of the issue like nothing had ever gone wrong.
This is where boundaries come in. The wall analogy actually fits in rather well with boundaries too since it is one lol. Make your position known, just don't let her punch holes in your wall.
SF
I'm back, had a bit of tough time getting into the forums, something happened to my account, thankfully the forum admins responded to my email and enabled my account (thank you guys).
It is easier to think about things when you use the squirrel analogy, it is a very good analogy - when you frame things this way it's easier when you have to determine how to respond to certain things said/done.
Here is an update on my situation:
- still separated
... OK, I thought a little bit of humor would help.
I think things haven't gotten a little better, I mean we're still separated but things have been a little friendlier with some surprising twists.
She talks to me more now than previously. She is more receptive to conversation albeit the conversation is usually one sided, ie. about her, etc. But I do show some interest, I don't want to appear as if I'm hanging from every word but I do show interest and ask more about any given topic she is discussing to get the conversation going and build more rapport.
She has hugged me a few times more since the last time and she also has told me that whenever I need to talk about anything, she told me I can call her/txt her - I thanked her for the offer and offered the same thing to her as well.
Last weekend I found myself working the entire weekend, moving one of the head offices for the company that I work for to a new location (moving servers, computers, network gear, related equipment, etc.). She had the kids thurs, fri & sat and after taking the kids out for mini-golf, she txted me to see how my day was and how things were going and that the kids were having fun. Told her that if she wanted to, she could come by and check out the new office that we moved to which was recently built. She accepted and brought the kids down (the kids had a blast, brand new office which is still largely unfurnished, I was the only there and they had a ton of fun running around, etc.). I told her I was going to be done @5pm that evening and that if she was interested, we could all go out for a dinner that evening (us & the kids) and she was receptive to that: we were both hungry and the kids definitely wanted to go out for dinner as well.
We had a good time going out for dinner, it was a fun family experience. I'll be honest, I can tell she was flirting with me (which pretty much confirms what I had mentioned in my earlier posts) and flirting obviously. She ordered a strawberry margarita and shared it with me, she cut up bits of her steak and shared it with me, we shared dessert, etc.
I took the kids that night because she worked the next morning and I'm usually the one that brings the kids to sunday school, she stayed that evening till the kids went to sleep and kept flirting with me.
She pretty much confirmed that she wanted to be physical with me but she didn't want me to confuse being physically intimate and wanting to get back together again. She is very confusing and in the past I would have probably told her that and started a bit of an argument also. A couple weekends previous to this she asked me if I still love her and she also said that it's not like she didn't want things to work out and then a few weekends later, she becomes flirty with me and admits that she wants to be physically intimate with me but she doesn't want me to confuse that with her having feelings for her. I told her that's fine, if she just wanted to have sex and didn't want me to pressure her into talking about love & feelings, I would be ok with that too.
So yes we ended up having sex and if I did wrong, any of you experienced DB'ers please say so, seriously I'm starting to doubt myself if I did wrong in going through with this. I had sex with my WAS (walk away spouse, I think that is the acronym for that), serious sex and we both really enjoyed it. I know she enjoyed it because she txted me a few days later asking me if I had fun that night because I didn't say anything afterwards and hadn't txted her the next day (maybe another mistake, maybe she was waiting for me to contact her after that?)
Seriously a guy can really get lost in all of the tests that his wife puts him through during a separation and evening during the course of a normal relationship. Is it just me or do women just continuously test their husbands? It's like you can't relax because if you do, you will fail some test. Right now I have to show her that she can trust me not to fall back into my previous bad patterns & behaviours, show her that the "wall" is strong so if she attempts to punch holes in it, she will realize that it is strong or that I am strong.
Was I wrong in having sex with my wife during our separation? It hasn't led to a reconciliation and I haven't forced that issue, in fact I've played it cool and just treated it as sex just as she had asked. I get the feeling she wants to have sex again, she told me it was pretty hot and that she had read somewhere that husbands/wives who are separated/divorced but hook up together to have sex end up having really hot sex and I guess that's a big turn on for her - she apparently had a lot of fun.
So what's my next move? My only problem is this, if I just have sex with her and never push the relationship issue, am I not communicating to her that this is fine with me and that's all we are really good for - physical intimacy but not emotional intimacy?
Think back to when you guys were a strong couple. When you had sex, was there a lot of heavy R talk with it, or was it really light and fun and sex out of mutual attraction and physical magnetism?
If you were dating would you go down the road of all the heavy emotional stuff, or would you have sex and just enjoy it for what it is?
My W had sex with me a few times in the early stages of seeing me start changing. She emphasized that she did not want to confuse me also and that it was just sex, but you know what, I think it was still another test to see if she could break my resolve and cause me to start pursuing again. If your W is a fairly emotional person like mine, then sex is never "just sex".
I say go with it, and show her that it just makes you happier and more fun to be around (aka wall veeery strong).
Seriously a guy can really get lost in all of the tests that his wife puts him through during a separation and evening during the course of a normal relationship. Is it just me or do women just continuously test their husbands? It's like you can't relax because if you do, you will fail some test. Right now I have to show her that she can trust me not to fall back into my previous bad patterns & behaviours, show her that the "wall" is strong so if she attempts to punch holes in it, she will realize that it is strong or that I am strong.
lol it's not just you. I wish I had figured it out earlier, I would be in a much better place than I am right now.
Although it may seem like you can't relax, being aware of these tests for me is the first step towards being a better man. ie. if you can change into someone who naturally meets the challenges with ease, you no longer feel like you cannot relax. It's not a matter of having to prop up the wall, because the wall becomes who you are and it just
is.
I actually feel myself changing (still not all the way there yet, long way to go). Instead of being one way and having to work on identifying the tests and passing them, I am becoming someone who naturally passes such tests because that is just the way I am. It feels good, I feel more relaxed, stronger, less controlling, more willing to accept that the occasional storm will come up, and that I am confident I can navigate through it quickly instead of letting it flood me and take me down with it.
Two books that have aided me in this area are "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Robert Glover, and "Way of the Superior Man" by David Deida. I recommend reading them in that order if you are interested.
spellfire I really appreciate the replies to my posts, seems to me you really get me and my situation, glad to see that my situation isn't totally unique.
She has her days where the bad attitude comes out of her and I've been sticking to my guns to not get sucked into an argument. I have even told her a few times that I just don't feel like arguing, that I won't get sucked into an argument and when she does feel like arguing, I try not to reply as much, let her do most of the talking and keep my cool and keep my attitude in check. It is so easy to get sucked into an argument, it does require discipline to let things go.
The analytical person in me keeps thinking though that if I let her argue with me or be mean to me and not stand up for myself and just keep my mouth shut and not argue back with her, I'm telling her that it's ok to do those things and I'm definitely not ok with arguing, bad mouthing, bad attitudes, etc.
But I'm remembering what you're saying, I'm a wall, a strong wall and I have to show her and probably more importantly myself that she can't tear down that wall.
Anyone have problems with detachment? Some days are easier than others. My real question is sometimes, it is so easy to detach, too easy in fact, I consider just giving up on this and start dating again and starting over. I love her and want her to wake up see value in me, in us, our marriage, our family and not just for our kids but for her & for me. I start thinking about how much time this is wasting, that I could get hit by a truck and all of my efforts would be in vain. Isn't life short, shouldn't we be valuing it by not wasting time, living for today?
It would be so easy to start over again. I saw a girl I used to date and she was really impressed by how I looked, what I did for a living, we talked a bit and to be honest there is physical chemistry still there - sometimes you can literally feel it. She told me to call her sometime to go out for a drink and gave me her number.
However I love my wife and want my marriage to work so I can't follow up on that offer but I tell you on those days where I think it would be easy to give up my work on DB'ing and just have fun and start over, it can be a struggle to find a reason in me to stay put and stay on the course and work on making my marriage successful even if it's just me working on it.
Maybe there's a lesson in there too. It's easy to start over again, it's easy to find someone new but having discipline and a strong resolve to fix what is broken is important, and choosing the easier paths in life doesn't build character and doesn't say alot about you. The flipside is maybe life doesn't have to be hard and I make things difficult on myself because i just don't know when to quit.
Anyone else in this place going crazy?!
what's the rules on communicating with your spouse because maybe I do too much?
Text messages, should I limit them or make sure I respond to every txt message? Am I allowed to initiate them or should I limit my contact and only respond when she messages me.
Phone calls? Same thing as above?
Should you always appear happy even if things in life are sucking? Put on a fake face just to show you're strong and can handle the separation and are living life just fine?
Yes, always act happy even if things suck and try to wait for her to make contact first and try not to respond immediately. You have to take things slow, believe me.
If you haven't ask about MC you might start looking into that. Getting them back is the easy part, keeping them is where the real work comes in. My W came back twice and is gone again right now. You just never know.
The analytical person in me keeps thinking though that if I let her argue with me or be mean to me and not stand up for myself and just keep my mouth shut and not argue back with her, I'm telling her that it's ok to do those things and I'm definitely not ok with arguing, bad mouthing, bad attitudes, etc.
It's ok to stand up for yourself. This is called establishing boundaries. The strong wall part is all about how you go about it (not getting sucked into fighting, getting defensive etc). If she does stuff that anyone with self respect would not tolerate, I personally would tell her. Establish the boundary, but do it in a calm and respectful and honest manner, not out of anger and defensiveness. If she is just complaining, then listen and validate the complaint, that's valuable feedback for you about what she is really unhappy about. If she is being verbally abusive, establish your boundary.
I wouldn't tell her "I'm not going to argue, I don't want to argue" etc. That sounds like conflict avoidance (ie. you are too weak to deal). Choose not to argue by letting her vent and then validating the parts of her venting you think are legit, while letting slide the things that aren't, or setting boundaries if you absolutely must.
It takes a great deal of self control, but you sound like someone who can handle it.
Regarding knowing what you want, I can't help you there sorry. I'm all in for my W and D4 so it is not something I've had to consider.
Yes, always act happy even if things suck and try to wait for her to make contact first and try not to respond immediately. You have to take things slow, believe me.
If you haven't ask about MC you might start looking into that. Getting them back is the easy part, keeping them is where the real work comes in. My W came back twice and is gone again right now. You just never know.
Seriously you must have great patience, for her to leave & come back a few times - where do you draw the line because once they've established that they can leave and come back repeatedly, don't you just become a revolving open door - what will make her stay if she knows she can pick up & leave anytime and come back anytime because you'll always be there waiting?
Doesn't that mess with your heart? It would definitely hurt mine enough to say enough is enough, if you're going to leave & come back all the time, next time you leave, don't come back.
I didn't read every word....
but.....
Don't respond to a text unless there is so reason to. Don't rush to do it too fast. Don't initiate calls or texts unless there is a need, probably kid related.
You don't have to appear happy. But, act as though you are ok. And eventually you will be ok. You are not trying to fake anything, you are trying to improve your own sense of yourself. She does NOT have control over your emotions!
The analytical person in me keeps thinking though that if I let her argue with me or be mean to me and not stand up for myself and just keep my mouth shut and not argue back with her, I'm telling her that it's ok to do those things and I'm definitely not ok with arguing, bad mouthing, bad attitudes, etc.
It's ok to stand up for yourself. This is called establishing boundaries. The strong wall part is all about how you go about it (not getting sucked into fighting, getting defensive etc). If she does stuff that anyone with self respect would not tolerate, I personally would tell her. Establish the boundary, but do it in a calm and respectful and honest manner, not out of anger and defensiveness. If she is just complaining, then listen and validate the complaint, that's valuable feedback for you about what she is really unhappy about. If she is being verbally abusive, establish your boundary.
I wouldn't tell her "I'm not going to argue, I don't want to argue" etc. That sounds like conflict avoidance (ie. you are too weak to deal). Choose not to argue by letting her vent and then validating the parts of her venting you think are legit, while letting slide the things that aren't, or setting boundaries if you absolutely must.
It takes a great deal of self control, but you sound like someone who can handle it.
Regarding knowing what you want, I can't help you there sorry. I'm all in for my W and D4 so it is not something I've had to consider.
Thanks Mike, my question was when you detach, act as if your life is fine even is she isn't there, you will continue to live your life, you won't be waiting or pursuing her, etc. After a while, doesn't that kind of detachment set in a different feeling like it's ok to let go, it's done, time to move on.
Honestly I do want a marriage, my marriage with my wife to work - I love her, I've always loved, heck I'm still in love with her if you can believe it - the feeling never left me, I've never been unfaithful, even during the separation but after a while and being separated for so long, isn't it just natural for you to get used to living apart and not want to be together because you get used to living separately and when new people come into your life randomly, it becomes easier to entertain the idea of starting with someone new. Plus after a while of pursuing a dream that doesn't seem to want to materialize, you start having ideas about giving up or letting go, letting her go with love because you didn't have what was required to make her happy and that is why she left.
I hope this stuff made sense.
Thanks again guys for your replies!!!
Continuing to work for your M versus letting go and moving on is simply a decision you make for yourself. Detaching makes you stronger so that you can optimize whatever you decide is right for you.
So the answer is yes, it does make it easier to move on if that is your choice. It also increases the possibility of reconciliation since it frees you up to be a stronger person with a better attitude, and makes you more desirable to your WAS.
You decide which road is right for you. DBing takes the rocks out of your backpack so the journey is not quite as hard, and you can hold your head up during the journey.
lol I'm analogy man lately.
Well I had a week that started off well from a great weekend with my wife & kids and then I went away on a business trip and when I got back she was very cold, withdrawn, borderline angry, etc. I asked her if everything was ok and why she was acting the way she was (smart a$$ comments, poor attitude, etc.) and she told me she can feel anyway she wants to feel. It basically threw me for a loop, it's hard to stay on this rollercoaster, 1 weekend she is angry, another she is happy. When I got back from my trip, I had the kids for a few days last week and I asked her if she could watch the kids for a couple of hours in the evening while I went to the gym (hadn't gone in a while), she came by and watched them but was still cold & distant - didn't know why. I went to the gym, did my thing, came back and tried not to pay attention to her bad behavior. The next day same thing, I asked her if she could watch the kids for a couple of hours while I went to the gym (I've done the same thing for her countless times in the past and these were the only 2 times I had ever asked her to do this). A friend called me and asked to come by my place, I came home after the gym, told her thank you for watching the kids and told her my friend was coming over for a visit, well she flipped, got so angry and told me I could find another !@#$%$ babysitter in the future - I was like WOW!!! Totally didn't expect that response. The weekend that followed, I got rude phone calls, txt msg's, etc. I've often heard that hate & love are two shades of the same emotion but this was too much even for me. I told her I wouldn't ask her for favors anymore since she responded so poorly and she could use all the foul language & poor attitude she wanted. I also told her she would apologize for how she talked to me and her poor attitude. I haven't gotten an apology yet but she did text me this morning to ask me to say good morning to the kids and when I was dropping them off. When I didn't reply quickly at first, she texted again but this time adding "Good Morning Rob" to the same text msg she sent earlier, I then responded back telling her good morning and when I would bring the kids by.
I just don't feel like rewarding her bad behavior anymore, I'm not afraid to fight with her but won't get sucked into every pissing match just for the sake of it.
She is influenced heavily by her family & friends (I wish I had as much influence as they did), she currently lives back home with her mom & dad and she deals with a form of depression (possibly even some form of bipolar) and I know that sometimes her outbursts may be caused by these problems but I need her to know that I'm not going to shrink back into my corner and become a doormat for her to walk all over when she has these attitude changes & becomes angry.
Was standing up the right thing to do? Should I have told my friend to stay home instead of inviting him over when she may have wanted to stay a while longer?
We went from having a really great weekend last weekend filled with alot of physical intimacy to barely talking this weekend.
It's like any progress I make gets destroyed by events like this? It really is discouraging, we've been separated for 1 year & 2 months and it's times like this that I wonder if the writing is on the wall and I just don't want to read it.
Thoughts/Comments?
Anyone else go through similar episodes?
Standing up for yourself is fine. Remember you can have boundaries, you don't have to compromise your values. It is how you enforce those boundaries that matters. Try switching roles in your head and think about a way that she could stand up to you that you would respect her for.
Getting sucked into a fight and angry words is certainly not the way, but yeah I know how hard it can be, I did exactly that this weekend.
I'm not pursuing her/chasing her and when we do spend time together, I do try to make it pleasant and I know that she does have fun when we're together doing something as a family. We don't go out on "dates" or outings without the kids and the times she does spend over at our place, she probably gets the 3rd degree from her parents (she's 35 but they still treat her like a little kid asking where she is, why she's going out, etc. and I'm sure it bothers them quite a bit if she spends the night at our place).
The times that she is acting nicely towards me, she texts me and asks me "how's it going?" and "hi, what r u up to?" and I do respond back in a very positive manner, I want to meet her positive energy with the same so that she feels comfortable to continue talking or txting and she usually does.
Maybe I should limit my contact after what happened this weekend, limit my responses, don't show any emotion, try not to be to attentive to her and only respond in a minimal matter.
After a year+ of being separated and truthfully only recently applying techniques like these books (I also purchased a program from Mort Fertel, anyone have any experience with his stuff?).
Do I smother her in kindness and be super nice to her all the time even if she gets angry and gives me attitude and acts poorly?
I read somewhere on this site about dating other people to make your spouse jealous - any thoughts on this? Is this safe? Does it work?
I also read somewhere that you should apply these divorce busting techniques for a year and after that, if you haven't gotten back together, you know you tried your best and should proceed with getting a divorce. My wife has initiated filing for divorce and I get the feeling that if left to her initiative she could possibly leave this as is forever and I'm certainly not cool with that. Spending years in limbo rather than enjoying a loving relationship is not my choice on how to spend my life and probably doesn't set a good example for our children either.
I have rec'd my books: the divorce remedy and divorce busting, they read "step by step" instructions to get your spouse back but going through them, they are more or less a list of examples of other couples, I don't see the step by step instruction part that she is referring to (I could be blind).
All the time - I think you did the absolute right thing by standing up to her.
She may not like it, but she'll respect it if you handle it in a calm rational manner. Don't let ANY spite or anger come back from you, or it'll ruin it.
W has called me all spitting fire, and when I respond calmly and rationally, she backs way down, and ends up usually feeling stupid.
I would just avoid your W at this point honestly. If she isn't willing to explain to you what the deal is, then you're just going to keep hurting yourself.
I did that - kept hurting myself over and over again. I went COMPLETELY dark on her a week ago, and it is awesome now. Incredibly painful the first 3 days, but I'm over the hump.
Of course, after being cold and distant, she has started texting me nice things, asking me to watch kids, etc.
I am not going to "ride the roller coaster", and until your W is willing to get some bipolar medication, or show some consistency, I think the best thing is to back off.
You asked nicely if everything was OK, and you got a nasty response. Don't honor that. I tell my W if she can't have a rational conversation with me, I'm going to hang up.
Also, find another babysitter - if she doesn't want to have an opportunity to spend time with kids, then fine. I will bend over backwards to be with my kids if I possibly can!
Standing up for yourself is fine. Remember you can have boundaries, you don't have to compromise your values. It is how you enforce those boundaries that matters. Try switching roles in your head and think about a way that she could stand up to you that you would respect her for.
Getting sucked into a fight and angry words is certainly not the way, but yeah I know how hard it can be, I did exactly that this weekend.
I feel kind of selfish putting my schtick out there and I don't offer to ask others how they're doing so please feel free to comment on your own situation here, I wouldn't consider it hijacking a thread, I think we can all learn by hearing about each other's situations and how we dealt with them.
I haven't read about the "going dark" technique (is it in the book), it's kind of hard to do that when you have kids that you share with your spouse, you want to hear about your kids and if necessary discuss them, "going dark" in my situation may make me come off as an unfeeling brute who doesn't care about how his kids are doing plus I like to say goodnight to them every night, tell them I love them, ask about their day, etc. They're too young to pick up the phone and dial themselves so I have to contact my wife to ask her to speak with them (and she does the same when I have them).
All the time - I think you did the absolute right thing by standing up to her.
She may not like it, but she'll respect it if you handle it in a calm rational manner. Don't let ANY spite or anger come back from you, or it'll ruin it.
W has called me all spitting fire, and when I respond calmly and rationally, she backs way down, and ends up usually feeling stupid.
I would just avoid your W at this point honestly. If she isn't willing to explain to you what the deal is, then you're just going to keep hurting yourself.
I did that - kept hurting myself over and over again. I went COMPLETELY dark on her a week ago, and it is awesome now. Incredibly painful the first 3 days, but I'm over the hump.
Of course, after being cold and distant, she has started texting me nice things, asking me to watch kids, etc.
I am not going to "ride the roller coaster", and until your W is willing to get some bipolar medication, or show some consistency, I think the best thing is to back off.
You asked nicely if everything was OK, and you got a nasty response. Don't honor that. I tell my W if she can't have a rational conversation with me, I'm going to hang up.
Also, find another babysitter - if she doesn't want to have an opportunity to spend time with kids, then fine. I will bend over backwards to be with my kids if I possibly can!
I often wonder if standing up is the right thing to do because it's almost like welcoming an argument and constant arguing got us where we are right now (us meaning my wife & I).
She got very angry when I told her that if she couldn't watch the kids that I would ask my mom and she doesn't like my mom (no worries, it's not a requirement) so it's possible that because I had a backup to her saying no to watching the kids that she got angry (or angrier, she was already in a mood).
I like that part about the rational conversation and if she can't do that, I will not talk to her until she can do that.
Part of my problem (my marriage's problems) was that I loved my wife so much that I was afraid to lose her when we were going out, got engaged, got married, etc. I told her this often and she knew it was the truth and she took advantage of it. When you don't love yourself as much as your spouse and your spouse knows this, it's possibly a subconscious thing but they lose alot of respect for you and walk all over you like a doormat. I learned this the hard way but alot has changed in the past year and I'm not the doormat anymore, I don't allow anyone to treat me badly. It's not that I walk around "guarded", it's just that i don't tolerate that kind of behavior, I have alot of self-respect and my self-esteem is much better now and I'm a better person for it, regardless if I'm separated from my wife or not.
All the time - I think you did the absolute right thing by standing up to her.
She may not like it, but she'll respect it if you handle it in a calm rational manner. Don't let ANY spite or anger come back from you, or it'll ruin it.
W has called me all spitting fire, and when I respond calmly and rationally, she backs way down, and ends up usually feeling stupid.
I would just avoid your W at this point honestly. If she isn't willing to explain to you what the deal is, then you're just going to keep hurting yourself.
I did that - kept hurting myself over and over again. I went COMPLETELY dark on her a week ago, and it is awesome now. Incredibly painful the first 3 days, but I'm over the hump.
Of course, after being cold and distant, she has started texting me nice things, asking me to watch kids, etc.
I am not going to "ride the roller coaster", and until your W is willing to get some bipolar medication, or show some consistency, I think the best thing is to back off.
You asked nicely if everything was OK, and you got a nasty response. Don't honor that. I tell my W if she can't have a rational conversation with me, I'm going to hang up.
Also, find another babysitter - if she doesn't want to have an opportunity to spend time with kids, then fine. I will bend over backwards to be with my kids if I possibly can!
I often wonder if standing up is the right thing to do because it's almost like welcoming an argument and constant arguing got us where we are right now (us meaning my wife & I).
She got very angry when I told her that if she couldn't watch the kids that I would ask my mom and she doesn't like my mom (no worries, it's not a requirement) so it's possible that because I had a backup to her saying no to watching the kids that she got angry (or angrier, she was already in a mood).
I like that part about the rational conversation and if she can't do that, I will not talk to her until she can do that.
Part of my problem (my marriage's problems) was that I loved my wife so much that I was afraid to lose her when we were going out, got engaged, got married, etc. I told her this often and she knew it was the truth and she took advantage of it. When you don't love yourself as much as your spouse and your spouse knows this, it's possibly a subconscious thing but they lose alot of respect for you and walk all over you like a doormat. I learned this the hard way but alot has changed in the past year and I'm not the doormat anymore, I don't allow anyone to treat me badly. It's not that I walk around "guarded", it's just that i don't tolerate that kind of behavior, I have alot of self-respect and my self-esteem is much better now and I'm a better person for it, regardless if I'm separated from my wife or not.
before I left for my recent business trip, she did come over, gave me a hug, told me to have a safe trip (I was driving) and she gave me some snacks she had made for me to eat while I was driving (some peanut butter oatmeal squares which were surprisingly good or maybe I was just damn hungry - LOL!)
I called her during the trip and left a quick voicemail to let her know that I appreciated the snacks, I was very hungry that morning and they really hit the spot (it was the truth), the voicemail maybe lasted 10 seconds. When she got it, she texted my cell and said thanks for the voicemail and she told me I was very welcome and that she was glad that I liked them and followed it with a happy face emoticon.
So when the mood strikes her, she can be very warm & friendly and making me a snack for my road trip I think shows that she cares for me (even if just a little bit) but she is guarded because she doesn't want to get pulled in and make me think that it means something (that's what she says during other similar occurrences).
What are your thoughts on going out to restaurants with her & the kids? I always pick up the cheque at the end of the meal, should I let her do this every now & then, get her to invest a little bit in me since I'm always doing it or should I just pick up the cheque and not worry about it. I read somewhere that it's good to have your separated spouse invest in you as much as you do in them because something becomes more important & valuable when you invest more time & resources into.
Yes I'm very yappy today, it's been a while since i've posted an update ;-)
Hey Rob... you don't know me, so let me introduce myself first. I am Ian and I have been on the boards since 10/06. There... I am now qualified
Couple of things here......
After a year+ of being separated and truthfully only recently applying techniques like these books (I also purchased a program from Mort Fertel, anyone have any experience with his stuff?).
I wouldn't spend any money on Mort, he will send you a daily email that is pretty good, but the rest is basically DB techniques that you have to pay for... you get more info on these boards.
I read somewhere on this site about dating other people to make your spouse jealous - any thoughts on this? Is this safe? Does it work?
Simple answer, would you like to be divorced??? If yes, go ahead and date. Look Rob, your a married man. Your still honoring your vows and hanging on to restore your marriage and family right? Do not do anything that you will regret if and when she decides to reconcile. Jealousy is not the reason you want her to come back into the marriage, her love for you and your kids is the reason. Many many people have fallen into this trap, it's all about loneliness and need for companionship. Buy a dog, hang out with friends, whatever you need to do.
I also read somewhere that you should apply these divorce busting techniques for a year and after that, if you haven't gotten back together, you know you tried your best and should proceed with getting a divorce.
Don't worry about time frames,just focus on what is within your span of control and that is your behavior, your actions, and your commitment to your family.
I have rec'd my books: the divorce remedy and divorce busting, they read "step by step" instructions to get your spouse back but going through them, they are more or less a list of examples of other couples, I don't see the step by step instruction part that she is referring to (I could be blind).
There is no cookie cutter answers Rob, it's a guideline and based on your situation you gauge what applies to you. I don't know if you have used the coaches or not, but they are excellent. I used Chuck when I started here and he was amazing. They really help you to focus on what aspects of DBing apply to your situation and can guide you to some realistic steps for you to take that can help.
Maybe I should limit my contact after what happened this weekend, limit my responses, don't show any emotion, try not to be to attentive to her and only respond in a minimal matter.
You have the typical problem of most newbies. You seem to overthink things to death instead of just letting go and accepting. My biggest mistake I made in my first 6 months was overanalyzing every interaction, every mood swing, and every feeling that I had. My advice, figure out how to stop doing this to yourself. Let go, accept where you are today and simply be yourself. Work on you and your life. Look at what you did wrong in the marriage and try to figure out how to improve on it. Take this time as a gift, a gift in that you now have some time to "fix" you so that you will be a better husband either for your wife, or future relationships.
You said in an earlier post that you do not want to reward bad behavior. I agree, except you also want to avoid it. Do not get into conversations about it right now. Odds are she doesnt even know why she has attitude. You asking her also tells her you are watching her every attitude or move. If she gets like that, remove yourself from the situation rather than pursuing the answers to why she's pissed or being bitchy. Reality is, as a guy with his world turned upside down, you aren't asking her what is wrong with her, you are asking her what you did wrong....big difference.
So look, what I think you need to clearly see here is that separation is not marriage ending, it is an opportunity to step up to the plate. It is an opportunity to show her that you are not simply self absorbed and the kind of guy that will do the woe is me thing because your marriage is struggling.
Now is the time for you to be a champion, a knight in shining armor so to speak. It is a time for you to show your wife what she means to you and that you have the ability to step up and carry her while she is in a weakened state.
So answer these simple questions Rob....
1. Do you understand that this is hurting her inside just as much as it is hurting you?
2. Do you understand that she has feelings and it is not simply a "hey I dont like you anymore so go away" type of thing that causes separation in marriage?
3. Are you capable of letting go of the selfish nature of men and instead of looking at this as a how could she do this to me ordeal, looking at it as an opportunity for personal growth and to strengthen your marriage by being the man that she needs you to be?
Many men in this situation tend to lose their focus on what this is all about and they for some reason loose all capability of empathy for the woman that they love. They believe that they have been hurt and abandoned. Well, reality is that your wife probably felt that way for many months before coming to a point of walking out. She probably felt the way that you do right now with the only difference being that she had to just keep living with it every day until she simply couldn't take anymore. In other words, this situation did not start the day she dropped the bomb Rob, it started long ago when the two of you forget that a marriage needs tending to and is not just going to be fine with no work put into it.
I will finish with this, I know this is a lot to absorb. I think it's important that you let go of the hurt and clear your mind of anything except for working hard to save your marriage. Once you feel clear, sit down and read the books, do not read them as your saving grace, read them as self help books that are the model for things you can do and work on to improve yourself as a man/husband and hopefully those changes will cause the magnetism that initially attracted your wife to you. Not one of us guys were the perfect husband. It took me a long time to get that.
This takes a lot of work, a lot of courage, and a lot of true love for your wife if you are going to be successful. Do you have it in you????? We shall see......
Sorry it was so long.......
Ian
I have learned a lot just by reading what you do, plus most of your responsess have had some great advice I will put to use. When I have time I am going back and re-reading your thread again. I have had some great advice from people on my thread and admire every 1 of them. They have helped me more than they will ever know. I am glad I started to explore on this site. It seems to help to explore.
The first thing I thought when I read your thread was " I will trade you " but then I don't know. It's just the afection thing for me. I could handle everything if I got half the afection you do.
I can not write as well as you do. It is defintly not as organized as your writing. If you check out my sitch you might have to piece a few things together from the first and second thread. I would appreciate yours or anybody elses thoughts and comments.
I really value your response and I will read it daily to keep me focused on what needs to be done, thank you very much for taking the time in writing so much, it wasn't long winded or verbose - it may be the kick in the pants that I've been needing to get my act together and if for nothing else, to be the kind of man I've always wanted to be.
Again thank you very much!!!
I will definitely check out your posts and reply back with my own experiences and what not. I read that part where you said you could take everything happening if you got half the affection I rec'd from my "walk away spouse/wife" WAW/WAS (still learning these acronyms, not comfortable enough to use them though). The problem with getting a little bit of affection is that lulls you into a fake sense of security, it's almost like being teased. Nice one day, angry another, it is very hard to handle that yo-yo effect, up & down, up & down, it is very trying to deal with that constantly. And possibly like spellfire has mentioned, it could be testing (oh that damn testing, seriously I'll be honest, it's not fun - it's like being in a lab under observation with scientists making notes based on your actions).
I am definitely impatient, I want my marriage back now, yes it's me being honest and it is hard living without my family the way I had pictured it. I put up a good front for my kids, I make sure that they feel loved, know that they're loved, do things with them constantly and pretty much try to make them feel good during what is a tough time for them as well (my little girl is 7, my boy is 5) and although my boy is pretty much oblivious to what is happening (thank God), my little girl feels it and I do see her being sad & crying a fair amount because she just wants her family back and I'll be honest, she does make me very "misty" when she cries and feels down.
It is also hard that when my wife shows affection during certain periods of time and acts nicely and then other periods of time when she hooks up with the "divorced wives club" (that's what I call them, and they tell her that being single is just so much better and she has so much more freedom to do whatever) and they go clubbing and dress for effect to get attention from men at bars & clubs and I hear about it later from her or through others and it really just stirs up my insides, it makes that spot in my lower stomach feel horrible (I call it my warning center, it acts up when I feel that someone is doing something wrong to me to hurt me). It's that yo-yo effect that is very hard and makes it very hard for me to want to trust her and continue any efforts to reconcile and do this db work on my own.
There is a downside to the affection, I do feel used sometimes, it's like I'm there for that purpose only when she isn't seeking attention from other people/men - kind of like when she is taking a break from that other side of her life.
That's why I brought up the dating as a possible method to wake them up: that you're not sitting at home waiting for them to come back, that your life is just as important and that they aren't the only ones that can have a good time and enjoy attention from other people.
In the end, it can all be so very clear and then it can switch in an instant and be very confusing.
I'm looking for clarity in my life so that my mind isn't affected as much by external influences to allow me to see what needs to be done and focus on getting it done.
Thanks again to everyone for your responses thus far, they are all very valuable to me.
Ian:
Great post and it helped me to clarify my thoughts as well.
Thank you from all of us who lurk around even if we have threads, just looking for that one tip, idea, comment that helps bring it clear for us.
Rob, you said it great, it is all so clear and then the next minute, so confused. I too have a WAS who is close then far. She told me, it seems if I'm nice to you, then you act like nothing is wrong. I think I'm GAL and try to be positive and then she comes back with Debbie Downer and then I mope around.
I feel I too would be better with minimal contact than the roller coaster.
You have been at this a lot longer than I have and not sure I could go as far as you have without throwing in the towel. I support your in and admire your ability. This board helps a lot.
Twice
My Story
Hey Rob, I want to clarify something to you. I said don't date, that does not mean do not go out and have fun. It does not mean do not go to bars and dancing. It means do these things as a married man. Social interaction can do wonders for self esteem and in keeping your morale up.
Believe me, it has the same affect on the WAS to see you getting dressed up to go out even if your intentions are pure. Just as you have no idea what she is doing when she goes out, she has no idea about you either.
I am definitely impatient, I want my marriage back now, yes it's me being honest and it is hard living without my family the way I had pictured it.
I am in no way a bible thumper, in fact truth be told I am a reformed Jew. However, I want to recommend that you read the story of JOB, old testament. Or you can get the book "Why bad things happen to good people" by Harold Kushner and focus on chapter one. It's about building patience through faith and trust in a higher power.
After doing this for over a year I am sure you are aware that this is all about patience and faith.
As far as how you are feeling about the positive attention, you have to change your mindset and understand that they flip like a light switch. You have to lower your expectations and enjoy the moments that you do get without expectations of anything more. If you cannot do that then you need to set some personal boundaries of how far you will allow it to go without having a negative affect on you.
Take care Rob and focus on what you can change, accept what you cannot, and try your best to recognize the difference.
Ian
Even though it seems like I've been at this for quite some time, I've only recently been actively db'ing correctly.
I made all the typical mistakes at first: professed my undying love, told her I would change, told her I would do anything to fix this, etc. etc. Basically confirmed to her how much low self-esteem I had and how little self-respect I had that I would plead & beg and in doing so pretty much validated that it was the right thing for her to do: how can your wife trust & want to be with someone who would show such weak character & strength?
Well alot has changed since then and that's probably what got her starting to show some attraction for me again. Seriously it's not alot and we are nowhere near reconciled and I can't foretell the future to say that it's a done deal and we will get back together.
But I honestly feel better about the person I am now vs. the person I was back then.
- I don't grovel, beg or plead
- if she starts a fight and tries to bring me down or insult me, I pretty much either hang up the phone (if we're on the phone when this happens) and tell her that I won't argue endlessly over the phone and I also tell her that I'm not going to tolerate that kind of behavior anymore
- I used to stand by and let her say things or reveal things to me that made me terribly uncomfortable inside. An example of this is when she goes out with her female friends (the "divorced wives club" who make divorce a fun & fashionable thing) to the clubs and she then talks about all the hot guys they saw and the attention they rec'd from these other men, talking to them, having drinks with them, etc. I used to feel like a big wimp and I would just suffer so much inside when I heard this stuff come out of her mouth.
That was the turning point in this situation and I'll give you some more details in my situation.
- I moved out in January 2008 because she told me to. She told me in November 2007 that it was over and my begging & pleading to reconsider and go for marriage counselling fell on deaf ears. She wasn't a nice person to begin with but she turned into someone evil, the rejection I felt was incredible: I heard all of the regular stuff: I don't love you, maybe I never did love you, I married you because my parents pushed me in your direction, I love you but I'm not in love with you, I will have love for you because we have such a long history, etc. etc. All of the stuff that pretty much rips your heart in two (well it did for me). Like I mentioned, I moved out, with my tail between my legs, we had just purchased that home 4 months earlier and I had spent those 4 months personally renovating that home from the dump that it was to something very comfortable to live in and a month after moving in, we were separated and I was out a couple of months later. I got an apartment nearby and I continued to pay the mortgage, utility bills, property taxes, etc. on that home while living nearby and paying my apart.rent. It was tough on me mentally, emotionally, financially, you named it, every way you can think of. I spent 6+ months in counselling (personal counselling and counselling for individuals who are going through separation/divorce). During that time I had the love of a few great friends, my children and my work to keep me going. Started going to the gym, lost @ 30-40 pounds went from a size 38 waist back to a size 32 waist, gained a fair amount of muscle on my frame (I worked out regularly when I was younger @ 18-20, my body remembered all of this stuff @ 36-37 years of age and I obviously had alot more free time to work out now). I visited the kids based on her schedule and would take them to stay with me on the occasional weekend when she wanted to go out or have friends over for parties (that's another thing that killed me, parties happening at the home that I paid for and renovated that I wasn't allowed to attend or enjoy). For six months this went on and she never let up on me, she was always angry & moody around me, used foul language, even told me she hated me, told me she would never be with me again and told me to give up my attempts. She worked part-time during all of this, paid for very little (basically her own expenses and nothing else). In May she took the kids to visit her brother & parents in another city for 2 weeks, I offered to help bring her to the airport so that I could say goodbye to the kids: that morning when I arrived to pick them up, she was extremely foul with me and swore at me for some dumb reason. I was torn up because I wouldn't see my kids for 2 weeks and she was still being rotten to me and something finally clicked in me: I am wasting my life on this person, she is always going to be mean to me, I had low self-esteem all of my life based on some childhood abuse issues (which I only told her about a few years earlier) and she knew about my self-esteem and my personal issues and yet she would continue to hurt me and I just couldn't take it anymore. I drove her to the airport, said goodbye to my kids (the kind of hugs & kisses you never want to let go of), wished her a good time and a safe flight and when I returned later on to my lonely apartment, the realization dawned on me that I shouldn't be living there - I should be living at home, my home, the home I built for my family, my children and for me. I packed my stuff and moved back while she & the kids were out of town and no I never told her or asked for her permission, I have alot of value, respect & self esteem, I don't need her permission. When she got back, she flipped (literally) and was angrier than I had ever experienced (and trust me, there have been experiences). I told her that I was back for good and that I wanted her to leave and this totally turned her world upside down.
That's when I learned that having love for yourself, self-esteem, self-value, self-respect are not only important qualities to have for yourself - they are attractive qualities for your spouse/girlfriend to witness on a regular basis.
It's not attractive or magnetic to allow your spouse to walk all over you.
There is so much more to write here, I hope I'm able to submit this long winded post, LOL!
Anyways I moved back in and that's when she finally realized that I wouldn't be bullied anymore.
I also told her that me having access to the kids based on her schedule wouldn't work anymore for me. When she had them, she basically offloaded them to her parents who lived nearby: they saw them more than I did and they were getting tired of it also (even though they wouldn't admit it - well actually they did several times).
I told her I wanted her to move out and after several months, I finally got her to move in with her parents which she hates. She doesn't have the financial means to support herself, she quit her last part-time job and didn't work for several months. During this time I realized that she wasn't just dealing with depression (which may be a large part of our problems), the therapist we did see one time told us that she was suffering from some form of biological depression (based on indicators like post partem depression after having each of our kids). She is prone to regular bouts of anger, then sadness, then being happy. Sometimes i'm lucky and I'm on the receiving end of some of that good energy but I'm usually on the receiving end of the anger & sadness.
For such a long time I allowed her to beat me up verbally, mentally & emotionally. I worked full-time, took care of the finances, did the lion's share of the household chores (cleaning, cooking, laundry, etc.) and when I would discuss this with her she would tear into me and tell me it didn't matter that I did everything. I have learned one universal truth, you cannot argue with women: they are too good at it and they usually win because men just aren't good at it. You end up feeling stupid (or at least I did every time) and in the end whatever logic you had to start the discussion was turned around and I wondered what the heck happened? If she spent every dime we had and I brought it up, it got turned around that I was poor at managing the finances. I even offered for her to take care of the finances and I wouldn't spend 1 red cent for a few months just to show that I wasn't the cause of our debt but she would never help with that, she couldn't care less.
Another problem is that she had low self-esteem and because I had very low self-esteem myself, the power struggle we had kept her on top. Bullies pick on weaker people when they're allowed because it pumps up their self-esteem to bully people with lower self-esteem - it allows them to get away with crap that normal people would never tolerate.
She is physically attractive and during the marriage I gained weight and felt even poorer about myself. She loves external validation: getting attention from other men (flirting with them,etc.) so much so that sometimes it appeared to be an addiction to her and when I brought it up, an argument would ensue and I would be on the losing end of it and somehow feel stupid for bringing it up. Her self esteem would get pumped up at my expense when she got attention from other guys (sometimes in front of me, sometimes even laughing at me when she knew it hurt me inside), it became a habit for her, and like alot of habits, a tough one to break. And when she was getting this attention from other guys she would experience withdrawal symptoms and feel ugly, useless, miserable, etc. She and her friends actually enjoy having drunk guys suck up to them when they go out to the bars/clubs.
That was the last straw in December, I finally mustered up the courage to tell her to leave the home when she bragged about this in front of me to her friends. When I finally let her have it and told her that I wanted her to leave the home, she was all surprised ("I don't understand, this never bothered you before, why are you so angry?")
This is probably the reverse of any DB technique that I've heard of on this site. I asked my wife who had left me to leave the home and I actually got her to do it.
She was sad, very sad, crying and the whole bit. I packed her things for her, put boxes & luggage into her vehicle, emptied the closets, moved backed into the master bedroom.
You are probably reading this and saying "What the !@#$%!".
Let me clear up a few things:
- Yes I want my marriage to work.
- Yes I love my wife very much (you have no idea how much)
- she has never admitted it to me but she may have had some type of relationship while we've been separated, you can tell when you overhear some phone calls how she talked to her friends and how she talked to "other" people - there is a subtle difference
- I love my children very much and want our family to be whole
- I don't want a marriage just for my children
- I want a marriage because my wife loves me and truly respects me and won't walk all over me like a doormat
- If I don't stand up for myself, all of the crap that my children have witnessed me take from my wife will be mirrored in their own lives, I'm sure of it. I came from a broken home, so did my wife and we pretty much duplicated that kind of crap in our own marriage.
- I told my wife in plain english that the way she treated me is horrible and that regardless if I was a weak man or not, she made the conscious decision to take advantage of that and to hurt me and treat me poorly and it's the truth
- I also told her to look at her 5 year old son & 7 year old daughter: the most important human beings in our lives and I told her imagine your son being in a relationship with a woman who takes advantage of him and walks all over him. I told her to imagine her daughter being mean and crude and bitter and being in the same time of relationship we had. It was the first time in any argument that she actually had no response for - seriously the first time ever!
I won't tolerate being walked all over ever again, be it with her or any one else in the future. I'm not going to walk around guarded and be the kind of person to attack first either but I'm going to establish boundaries and make sure they are respected and above all make sure that I love myself and respect myself and keep my self-esteem high. That is something any spouse in a troubled marriage should be doing. Don't ever grovel, beg or plead with your spouse when someone decides to end the marriage. You may not have been a perfect spouse but ever relationship has a dual responsibility: there are two of you, always remember that.
I have also stopped bringing up the past, it's worthless to debate who did what in the past - that time is over, all you have is the present and you are in control of how you spend that time. My wife now talks about the past alot, possibly in attempts to show what I've done bad and why she acted the way she did. I won't argue with her though, if has some points that have merit, I will agree with her and not defend myself as long as she is civil (and I have found that she sometimes oddly enough comes to my defense when I agree with her and tell her I was very poor at what I did).
OK, like a mentioned a few posts back, I'm very yappy today, sometimes the stuff just wants to come out, being a quick typer doesn't hurt either LOL!
Any comments or feedback are appreciated.
Forgive me if I am repeating myself, I often lose track of what I recommend to who. In addition to DB and/or DR, please get and read the following books:
"No More Mr Nice Guy" by Robert Glover
"Way of the Superior Man" by David Deida
"Hold on to Your N.U.T.S." by Wayne Levine
I found them to be very empowering. I have never been one to let anyone walk all over me (W would say I am as stubborn as a mule in fact), but I still found a lot of good information. I think you stand to benefit even more than I did from these three books.
You are probably reading this and saying "What the !@#$%!".
Au contraire, I was actually saying "yeah, that the way to do it!"
I really look forward to your responses Mike, thanks for letting me know I'm not crazy with how things have been going!!!
- I'll definitely check out those books, I've been hearing alot about David Deida and the others sound very interesting too!
My new found "manhood" if you want to call it that (seriously that sounds cheesy or dirty, which ever way you read it), doesn't mean that I'm going to be this macho a$$hole, it just means that I finally think highly of myself, have a direction in my life and I'm enjoying life and enjoying the certain amount of control that I have in my life (and letting go of the need to have control in other people's lives) and knowing that I'm responsible for my own happiness - it's definitely something I have control over and can manifest in my life if I put my mind to it. Doing so sets a good example for my kids which makes me happy to know that I'm finally the positive role model they need in life and they will know life is what you make it and I'm going to make it a good one for me and for my family.
Hi Robx, I’m Sandi2. I was almost a WAW but thanks to this board and some great people who stuck with me, got my head on straight and I am still in my M.
I have been scanning over your posts and it sounds like a lot of other relationships that I have read on this very board. I don’t know a lot about bipolar but I have experienced the other. I am no doctor but I did not know that throwing a fit was a sign of depression. I personally think that your wife conveniently uses that for her excuse for poor behavior whenever she wants to act like a b*tch. Apparently her parents must have allowed her to get away with it and then you M her and was afraid of losing her, therefore, you allowed her to get away with it. Now, when a person has had that much power in a family, don’t think for a second that they are going to give it up easily.
Being different or even opposite from each other does not necessarily mean that you cannot have a successful M. My H and I are very different but I suppose as the years go by, we get more alike. But, anyway, it just depends on how badly the couple wants to work on the relationship. One person can turn the M around to be good, but in a case like yours, it would be very, very difficult. I am not saying that it would be impossible, but very difficult.
I was ready to suggest that there was another person involved by your second post, but I thought I better hold out and read the thread through, and now, sure enough it is coming to the surface. You know what? If I had to guess at what kind of guy she would go for, I would say she would go for a bad boy that treated her like crap. Yep! Go figure. But, that is how it works. She acts like some hellhound and you are trying to get along with her b/c she has some…..biological depression(?? Does this mean the kids will get it too?) and she will fall all over herself for the man that treats her like she is nobody. You want to know why? You already know why, don’t you? She likes him b/c he will not let her get by with a thing……not one thing. If you had been that way from the beginning, then she probably would have fell all over you. I’m not saying for you to be mean or a bad person, but if you stand any chance at all, you are going to have to be tough…..and I mean very tough on her or she will eat you up alive. She is used to being the queen bee and having everything the way she wants it and she will either get mad and throw a fit, or she will be nice….just to throw you for a loop….or she may even throw in a little sex now and then. But, the roller coaster ride just keeps on going.
I think you need to lay down some very stiff boundaries about what you will tolerate and what you won’t. But, your problem is that you still care way too much and she can see that. So, just have your own set of rules that YOU live by, b/c you can’t control her and you sure can’t make her live by your rules. However, she has been rewarded for bad behavior for so long until I honestly do not know if there is hope. If you stop rewarding her for bad behavior, and she starts having to suffer the consequences for when she acts terrible to you, then you may start to see her change…..if she wants to be a part of your life badly enough. If she doesn’t want you to be a part of her life, then she won’t try. She will try to “play” you, but she won’t put forth the right effort toward a good relationship.
I am very glad that you woke up and realized that you did not respect yourself and now like yourself. It took hard work to get to where you are now. However, I don’t think she has enough sense to know that she has a good man. I think she will continue to try to walk on you every chance she gets. As I said, she went for too many years disrespecting you in every way possible. I really don’t know if that can be redeemed or not. It would be great if she got her eyes open and would see you with new eyes and see the man you are now, but do you really think she will?
You had asked about whether or not you should pay for her meal when she goes out with you and the kids. I don’t know that I have ever told anyone this…..I can’t remember it, but I think you should not do anything for her like that or do anything else with her....period (not for a looong time). The reason I say that is b/c she “expects” you to do that. She expects you to be the nice guy. I’ve heard other men talk about a book “Hold on to Your N.U.T.S.” Maybe you should check it out. In the meantime, I think you should stop anything and everything that you have always done that she expected you to do. Throw her for a loop for a change. I personally think if you were to act as if you could care less what she did, and you were to drop the rope and moved on with your life…..then and only then will you see her start to draw closer to you. At first, it will be out of sheer curiosity to figure out what you are doing. So, you would have to be clever and consistent. She will want what she can’t have. I think that is part of the sex thing....just to see if she can still get it. So, stop being her toy.
She has always had you and she knows that. So, why not make her think that you are moving forward in your life and you don’t care what she does. Do you think it would get her attention? It may not at first if she thinks it is a game you are playing, so you would have to make a believer out of her. The thing I am wondering is if YOU have what it takes to stick to it.
You see, she needs to want you really, really bad. She needs to work her a$$ off to get you back. But, if all she has to do is wiggle her little a$$ in your face…..then that won’t work at all! So, you would certainly have to be self-controlled and not allow her to work you like a puppet.
There is always hope, but being smart enough to know what to do and clever enough to know how to do it is the secret.
Take care,
Sandi2
- your post hit the nail on the head, I'm impressed that anyone got much of what i said, I think I talk in circles too many times for anyone to make heads or tails out of what I say.
It's true, she knows if she wiggles her a$$ in front of my face that I pretty much fall flat on my face, yes I'm an a$$ man (among pretty much every other body part on a woman) and she definitely has a nice one and she knows it does the trick for me. I never thought of it that way, if she wants sex, she does wiggle that thing in front of me, flirt with me and gets what she wants. It's hard for me (I won't say it's hard for all men or women, that's a stereotype) because I'm a sucker for really good sex and we've always had good sex but it is easy for her. She just has to "wiggle" it as you say and I'm there but if the opposite is done and I'm the one initiating it and she's not exactly feeling it or wanting to, she holds out.
I should do it the other way, I should hold out, I should care less and I should act as if I'm moving on and really mean it.
And I also think she is probably into the bad boy type that would treat her like crap, her dad was that way with her mom and left them when they were young only to come back a few years later. He did the same thing to another woman overseas and my wife only recently met her half-sister a couple of years ago and now she found out that she has another half-sister out there. Her dad is the kind of guy who couldn't care less about his wife, love or anything else for that matter. He takes care of himself and his own needs and doesn't worry about anyone else. I guess my wife saw that growing up and she is daddy's little girl and maybe that is the kind of guy she is attracted to, the "bad boy".
UGGG!!!
I've never been called the bad boy, I probably spent my whole life trying not to be the "bad boy", always responsible, safe, mature, etc. (yes boring for most of my life but that has been changing, trust me)
I need to be smart enough & clever enough like you said, I'm going to see if I can do that - if not for anything else, just for me.
Thanks for the wicked reply back, it was awesome and I love hearing from the female perspective - it helps alot, more than you know. ;-)
Hi, I'm glad that you were open to what I told you. Unfortunately, I have seen this too many times in couples. I will never understand what attracts some females to the "bad boy" character b/c to me it is very unappealing, but that is a difference in people's taste. I do want to encourage you about something that I feel is very important and I hope you will listen carefully. I know when a heart is breaking it is hard to hear, but so far you have done a great job, so I hope you will hear this also. I tried to teach my son to understand women's needs and to be a "nice guy". So, when he was old enough to date he quickly became discouraged b/c it seemed like all the girls he cared about would end up breaking his heart and turning to the bad boys. He told me that it was clear to him that the worse you treated women, the better they liked it. I was concerned about him b/c he had a big heart and I know I'm his mother, but he is a good person and I hated to see him change his natural character/personality just to try to get a particular girl. I encouraged him to hold out b/c I believed that there was a girl for him that would truly appreciate his wonderful good nature. Well, that girl came along! She is the sweetest DIL that I could ever hope to have. She has told me many times how much she appreciates how I raised him b/c he is so good to her and their children. He is a good man, not b/c I taught him to be, necessarily, but b/c he was born with that nature. So, what I am telling you is
NOT to change just to try to "get the girl" b/c whether it is your wife or another woman later down the road, there is somebody that will appreciate you for the man you already are and you won't have to break you back trying to become somebody you aren't.
I am not saying this is true in every case b/c I don't have the degrees of a piece of paper to say that it is, but I can say that I have witnessed these cases of the woman wanting the bad boys when she was either spoiled by her parents (or whoever raised her). And, by spoiled, I don't mean with money, but I mean that they gave into her and let her have her way if she threw enough angry fits until they grew weary and would relent. So, in other words, they were too good to her and she did not respect them b/c they gave into her wishes when they knew it was not what she should do/have. Therefore, when the "bad boy" comes along and pays no attention to her and treats her like she is something for him to wipe his feet on......she respects him b/c he is the first person that has ever told her she could not have what she wanted........mainly him. So, naturally, she wants him and more of his treatment.
It all sounds so crazy, doesn't it? But that is my reason for saying some of the things I did in my last post.
She just has to "wiggle" it as you say and I'm there but if the opposite is done and I'm the one initiating it and she's not exactly feeling it or wanting to, she holds out.
This is just my opinion but I see this as "power control". She calls the shots as to when to have sex. If the two of you have sex when
YOU want it, then that means she is submitting to you and giving up her power (in her mind). She feels in control of the relationship and it makes her
feel "powerful" to know that it takes little effort on her behalf to work you like a puppet. It feeds her ego. But it is not in a good way. You are a young, normal man who is separated from his wife, and of course you are sexually needy. She also realizes
that and I am quite sure saves that for her trump card when nothing else works, or if she just needs a boost to her ego. I hate to sound so harsh, but I know a little bit about how women think and feel......and all of it is not good.
I can only tell you what I would do if I were in your shoes. It is very hard to do when children are involved and I realize that. However, I personally do not think you are going to win her over to being like you want her to be. Not this way. She is not going to change
her ways in order to get you back. Before I go any farther, I meant to ask you about this depression of hers. Is she on medication? Have you actually been with her and heard the doctor discuss her "condition" or is this what she or her family has told you? If I were you, I would want to know what is being done about her medical problem b/c people do
not have to just suffer with bi-polar and do nothing about it. If it is postpartum depression, then she can be treated for that. Any type of depression can be treated, as far as I know. I'm not sure what this "biological depression" means. But anyway, that is why I can't help but think
this is being used as her credit card to throw out there when she needs to cash in on some "excuse" for bad behavior. Based on what you have told us, I get a bad vibe about it. Anyway, if she truly has a medical problem, there is no excuse for her not being under a doctor's treatment continually, and I would think after some point.....there should be signs of improvement. However, think about it. If a person gets what they want in their life by using bad behavior, why would they change? If bad equals rewards, then she is not going to change until she experiences, and is throughly convinced, that bad equals consequences for her actions.
Back to what I started to say before I got off on the "depression" thing......you have worked very hard to over come your lack of self-respect and low self-esteem. I know that was such a hard accomplishment and I really admire anybody who can do that! It takes a very determined person who wants that more than anything. But, a tremdous amount of damage has been done to the marriage relationship and I think it will take a major change for her to realize that she is going to come out of this as the "looser" if she doesn't change things about herself. She will have to want something despartely in order for her to work that
hard for it b/c I doubt that she has ever had to before.
This is what I purpose that you do and it is strickly my thoughts about it. It, of course, is your life and your decision. You may want to invest in talking to one of the DB counselors b/c they are very good in their advice. Anyway, I think you should stop all meetings with her, such as eating out with the children or any other get-togethers. In your stitch, I do not think the "friend" path will work b/c she doesn't respect that. You will be spinning your wheels. You should not have any contact with her what-so-ever except where the children are concerned or business. You need to continue in all the self-improvements that you have accomplished and just keep getting better in all of those areas. That is what has won you your self-respect. You need to stay as busy as possible and stay out of your house as much as possible getting a life apart from your wife. Again, do not make any contacts by phone, emails, or anything unless it is almost an emergency or regarding the kids, but don't use the children as an excuse to contact her. I think you said there was already a schedule set in place. Make her stick to "her" schedule she made. As I said before, now that your self-esteem is better, you should know what you will stand for and what you won't, so have those lines drawn in the sand and don't let her or anyone else step over them. That is when we start loosing our self-respect is when we allow others to step over those lines, whether they go by the name of "wife", "boss", "friend" or whoever.
Detaching is the hardest thing you will ever do. You can read all the threads from LBS on this board and they will tell you that it is. I have had many say that they just can't do it and they try to get around it and do other things and all the time, their spouse is "eating cake". In the end, if they do what they should do, they learn that they
can detach and that it
is hard but it is also healthy for them. It often takes this detachment in order for the spouse to start to open their eyes. I don't know if you have read about "dropping the rope" or not. Picture your wife with one end of a rope tied around her and you holding on to the other end. She is fighting to get away from you while you are holding on for dear life. As long as you are holding tight to that rope, she will fight to get away. However, when you drop that rope and she sees that you are not trying to hold on to her any longer and that you have gone your merry way and living your own life, then if she is ever going to wake up and realize what she has lost, that is when it will happen. In some cases, it has gotten right down to getting a divorce. Some have actually gone through a divorce and then gone back together. There is one thing to consider, and that is the fact that a lot of times when you detach and start living your own life, by the time your spouse wants you back.......
you are the one that is no longer interested. I may sound hard hearted and I don't mean to, but the way I see it is that when you have given everything you can and you still get treated this way......that is all there is left to do. If she comes to you wanting to reconcile, and you are no longer interested......she has nobody to blame but herself. Oh, by the way, she will play all her little games with you. She will pull out every trump card she has, so if you go this route......brace yourself for whatever she dreams up. At first, she will think it will be easy to pull her usual sex card. When that doesn't work, it will become more challenging for her and she will try harder. Of course, the first time you turn her down for sex, she will be furious b/c I doubt that has ever happen to her. Should be interesting to see the display of emotions......huh? You can bet before it is over that you will probably see about every emotion that she has b/c that is what she opperates out of.....her emotions.
Well, I know it is a big decision what path you will choose, but let me add this. If you decide to "drop the rope" be positive that is what you know you need to do and that you realize how difficult it will be and be prepared for all her bag of tricks. Sometimes, we have to do what we know we have to do......not what we "want" to do. I know you are a strong person based on what you have already accomplished. I also think you are sick and tired of being abused by somebody that is suppose to love you above all others. I also think she has somebody else on the side-lines, but that is just my gut feeling.
That thought also leads me to tell you this. When getting a life.....be very careful b/c you are vulnerable where sex is concerned and you could find yourself with another woman in a sexual situation that you don't need to be in, so be careful. I'm not preaching, but there are particular bar scenes and places like that, where the atmosphere seems to encouage flirting and picking up dates. If you go "looking".....you will find.
One more thing that I thought of and then I have to go. She may not act interested when/if you drop the rope, if she does have her eye on another man. She may end up messing her life up by getting involved with one man after the other. You need to be prepared for that also. This happens in a lot of cases with women that are like your wife. However, you could not control what she does no matter which path of DBing you choose.
Again, I am not telling you what you have to do. I am just throwing this out there and it is up to you. It is your life and only you can live it. I hope you won't waste a day of it. You sound like a really great person who deserves a wife that loves and appreciates who you are. Time does a lot for the heart.
Take care of yourself,
Sandi2
Hi Sandi, thanks again for the great reply back.
I will also say that my heart "broke" quite some time ago, this past 1+ year has seen it heal considerably and it's true that time does help heal these kind of wounds - even sometimes when you don't want it to. I am in a much better place now just so everyone is clear about that. I won't be jumping off any bridges anytime soon (because with my luck I would probably just hurt my knees something fierce LOL!)
Looking back, alot of it was my fault and I'm not just saying that to make what she has done OK, because it isn't. Based on all the materials I've been reading during this last year, I haven't been much of a man all my life and that probably did a fair amount of damage to whatever attraction she had for me. I can see that I was guilty of a lot of mistakes: not leading enough, not setting rules & boundaries, being mr.nice guy and not being honest when things bothered me and letting her do whatever she wanted even at my expense, putting her on a pedestal, telling her I was afraid to lose her, not valuing myself and having self-respect, allowing her to flirt openly with other men sometimes right in front of me and not telling her that her behavior was wrong and if I did, I didn't stick to my guns and backed down when I should have stood firmly. So many things I have done wrong to show her I was weak and truth be told, I was very weak.
That was then, this is now.
I'm a different person, I wouldn't have been able to do any of the things that I've done this past year (08/09) recently if I hadn't taken back those raisins I call balls out of her purse. LOL! Yes it's funny when it's put like that but the analogy is somewhat accurate, I own "them" again and I'm smiling while I write this.
- I wouldn't have moved back into my home
- I wouldn't have demanded and rec'd equal shared/joint custody of my children
- I stopped allowing her to talk horribly to me anymore, before I would just take it, shrink in my corner and never stand up for myself, now I stop her in her tracks and ask her to leave or hang up (depending if it's in person or on the phone)
- I don't beg or plead for her to come back
- in fact I packed her things and moved her out just last month (seriously I would have never thought I was capable of this)
- when she openly discussed a night of bar hopping with her girlfriends and all the "hot" guys they were hanging out with, I pretty much told her to shut up, that it was extremely disrespectful to talk like that in front of me with other people around as if to mock me and she totally went silent and was embarrassed (with a whisper of "it never bothered you before" coming out of her mouth at which point I replied that it always bothered me that someone who I loved and was supposed to love me could hurt me so easily in person & in public)
- she is the one who initiates hugs and polite conversation now, otherwise I'm quiet and just go about my business if she happens to be visiting the kids if she is in the area
- when I don't pay her any attention, she notices it, I think it actually hurts her, I've seen the reaction in her face and she has mentioned that it seems so easy for me to move on, that this doesn't affect me anymore and truth be told, it is getting easier
My weaknesses: I have a few, namely, sex. Seriously I'm a young guy, 37 years old, I'm in pretty good shape now and one of the unfortunate side effects of being more fit & healthy is that my "appetite" is much stronger now. I don't want to go out & start dating other women just to have sex and I rationalize that with the opportunity when it comes up to have sex with my wife. But I see what you're saying about holding back on that too and I see that she probably realizes she still has that power over me and I never looked at it that way so I definitely have to work on that part. It's just that when you don't "drink water" for a while, you get really "thirsty"! ;-)
She does use her depression as her way of acting poorly to me. It is an excuse, I'm seeing that. She doesn't act like that with her friends ever from what I know and she seems to be able to switch off the depression when she goes out with her friends which seems to convenient to me. She has been on medication for the last 5 years, for the first 4 she was on the wrong medication (which is really horrible when I think about it, I am so angry at the doctors for that but apparently it happens). I believe she is on wellbutrin right now. When I call her on her mood swings and acting poorly and verbally abusive, she says that I'm not there for her emotionally and unfortunately that throws me for a loop because it's possible that she is right - I have to assume she can't be "evil" (yes a strong word, possibly not entirely accurate) all the time and it's possible that she does have mood swings which the medication doesn't help with and then again I could be gullible and buy this just like I have in the past.
The detaching process is news to me, I've only started reading about this and it's very interesting because it's possible I started implementing a version of this without knowing that it's detaching. I've stopped pursuing her, I'm living my own life now, go the gym regularly, shop for myself, I go out with friends, have friends over, take care of myself and my kids (we go out and do stuff regularly and sometimes include their mom) and I don't require her help with anything. One of the advantages of being the person who did the bulk of the household work (while being the main breadwinner) is that running my household isn't an alien task: I cook, clean house, do laundry, bring home the bacon & cook it. It isn't always easy, being one person and doing it all can be tiring sometime but I don't feel bad for myself, I actually feel good about myself because I can do it.
Back to detaching, my wife has noticed more & more of this. No regular txt messaging or phone calls, when she is over I don't pay too much attention to her (unless we're being physically intimate) and I know she notices this because she mentions it to me and I think it bothers her, in fact i can tell that it does - she has called sometimes and told me she is sad, told me she still loves me, asks if I still love her, tells me things like "it's not like I didn't want things to work out between us". It's hard to trust her though based on all the crap that she has pulled and how mean & abusive she was during the first half of last year when we were first separated. I also know that she doesn't like living at home with her parents but I don't want her to move back in with me just to get away from them (been there & done that), it has to be real for me to allow her to come back. When you read that last part, I almost sound like the walk away spouse even though she was the one who kicked me out.
That is probably my only fear with detachment, it's probably very possible that when you detach enough, you don't want the other spouse back and when they start pursuing you and wanting you back, you push them away. It's probably very good at shifting the power back to your end but the drawback is knowing that you're detaching so that they know what they're losing and need to work hard at getting back. I guess that is where discipline comes into play.
Thanks again for your replies, I'm going to be re-reading them over & over again, it definitely helps to get the female perspective on this and you seem to know my wife's behaviors very well which helps alot, I've derived alot of insight from your posts - thank you!!!
It's good to know that I helped in some small way. It sounds like two people who married young, and like most of us, had a lot of growing to do. It appears that you have done most of the growing. I think it says a lot about you when you take part of the responsibility for the breakdown in the marriage relationship. You also sound so much like my H when we were first M. In fact, he was so sweet and gentle that I was probably not very nice to him and took advantage of his good nature. It is a shame, but that is how most humans are, we tend to walk on the people who allow us to. Through the years, he toughen up and he does not take much off me anymore, but he is still a pretty nice guy.....guess our son gets it from him.
You really made me laugh when I read your post and that is good that you can keep your sense of humor and not be bitter. That is very sad when a person allows a broken relationship to cause them to be bitter. I don't know many people who enjoy being around a bitter person.....they just aren't much fun, are they?
The detaching......hummmmm, yes, there are several that experience the problem you described when it takes their spouse too long to decide to straighten up and fly right. The way you see it at this point in time would be very sad for you to lose that love for her, but if you were fully detached emotionally from her, it would not bother you other than to look back and think that it was sad that the two of you did not work out your differences. Now, I want you to understand that I am not trying to get you to the point that you want a divorce......I'm just explaining this "detachment" process. I sincerely hope that the two of you can work things out, but I do think it will take a long time for her to be convinced that you are no longer the person you were before. I had to learn that with my H, so she can learn it.....if she wants to. I just hope she doesn't get involved with another man and really mess things up.
If I had to pick one thing out of all the DB techniques that I thought was the most important one, it would be "do not pursue". This means in anyway what-so-ever. I think it is a man's nature to pursue and he does it a lot of times and doesn't realize he is pursuing. For an example, a phone call is pursuing....unless it is about the children or business....however, if you discuss anything else with her, or even hang on the line too long waiting to see if she will talk more....that is pursuing. I have a long list that I often give newcomers. You may have already seen it. I think it has been passed around quite a bit, but if you want it, I'll give it to you.
It sounds like she is the one sounding "needy" when she asks you if you still love here, etc. How do you handle that?
Well, I am home on my lunch break and have to get back to work. Catch you later.
Sandi2
Hi Sandy, you have helped quite a bit, along with all the others that took the time to respond to this thread and you are right, I've done alot of growing and I really am enjoying my life. On those days that I'm home alone and don't have the kids, I really don't feel alone, I thought about that the other night when I got home from work and I was actually pretty happy. I did some grocery shopping, made myself some supper, did some laundry, downloaded some new tunes for the mp3 player just before going to the gym @8pm (got home just after 10), seriously my days are busy and if I have to be honest, I appreciate the quiet down time: no one else's needs to take care of except my own, it's a nice time to have to yourself and I don't think people in general value personal time like that as much anymore and they probably should, helps clear your thoughts and allows you some relaxation time.
I can take responsibility for the things I've done wrong because I know I did them and only focusing on that instead of spending the majority of the time focusing on what she has done wrong, frees me up mentally to have a clearer head to think about things in general. I would be lying if I said I don't think about the things she has done to hurt me & treat me badly, they just don't occupy my thoughts 24/7.
Spilling my guts out on this forum helps too, talking about it and being honest. The internet affords us all a bit of anonymity which allows us to feel safe enough to be honest without fear of retribution.
If I detached so much that I would reject her if she did clean up her act and want to reconcile our marriage would be a sad thing but it's not the kind of sadness that would grip me in depression. I was depressed for a period of time but I'm doing really good and I'm enjoying a much better outlook on life that previously.
As for getting married young, I don't know, it's possible, I was 29 at the time, she was 27 - it's not too young I suppose (I'm 37 now), I've heard of younger. We've been together for quite a while, for several years before that so that plays into as well I guess.
I think detaching is important, not just to show the other person that you're moving on and to give them a possible fear of loss but it's healthy for you not to hang on to the other person so much because that would generate alot of disappointment and sadness with the constant rejection and I don't feel any rejection lately. Detaching frees you up to rediscover yourself and make you realize the importance of your individuality.
If she gets involved with someone else, her loss, seriously - I've told her this before and I'm not going to give it anymore thought. I would actually feel bad for the next guy, I doubt she could hide her depression and possible bi-polar for too long and once that is revealed, unless this other person really doesn't care and enjoys the repercussions of those issues, I don't see someone staying around that long to deal with that poor behavior. Once you get older, you've been in a few relationships, the unfortunate side effect is that you tend to be less tolerant of this kind of crap especially when there are so many people out there to choose from (hence the high rate of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. divorces).
She had asked me during a recent heated argument if I'm going to start dating and I've told her that it isn't her business either way - but unfortunately I didn't leave it at that (yes sometimes we want to let out some frustration as well), I told her that there are alot of woman out there that I'm sure would be happy to be with a guy like me and that I'm a normal person and we all want to be with someone special/loved by someone and if it's not her it will be someone else. That was probably rude of me to say so but like I said, I'm not perfect. Almost sounds like an ultimatum now that I think about it and I hate that it sounded like that.
As for the pursuing, I stopped my subtle pursuing (it felt like a cat & mouse game, again the sex issue was at play here - I think we both feed off of it). I haven't called her or texted her at all, over the weekend she got angry again (one of her moods) and said some very hurtful things and I told her not to call or txt me again until she apologized and seriously it's time to call a spade a spade and let her know that I won't tolerate crap language or behavior from her to me. It's ok to have moments of weakness and to lean on someone but it's not ok to beat up someone because you think you can and I let her know that.
She has been sounding needy lately, I noticed that too, possibly a side effect from the detaching and me not pursuing her like I normally do. If I did wrong let me know but yes when she was sad, teary eyed and reaching out and told me she loved me and asked me i still loved her, I did tell her that I love her, if that was wrong, say so. I was being honest but masculine at the same time, I didn't buckle, I maintained my composure, didn't melt in her arms but she did melt in mine, I held her. Maybe that isn't the way to handle it, maybe I should just go silent and walk out of the room, tell her that because she has hurt me so much, it's hard for me to believe any words that come out of her mouth. I'm seriously overthinking this, I'm sure, I am way too analytical for my own good sometimes.
I do want your list, when you have time to post it, please do, I'd love to read it, this forum has been an invaluable resource for this situation.
Thanks again for the great reply back!
Sounds like you are DBing very well to me.
She has been sounding needy lately, I noticed that too, possibly a side effect from the detaching and me not pursuing her like I normally do. If I did wrong let me know but yes when she was sad, teary eyed and reaching out and told me she loved me and asked me i still loved her, I did tell her that I love her, if that was wrong, say so. I was being honest but masculine at the same time, I didn't buckle, I maintained my composure, didn't melt in her arms but she did melt in mine, I held her.
There ya go. Being that strong wall that I mentioned earlier gets these kinds of results. I don't think saying I love you was too much because it was on your own terms, and not an act of pursuit. Sounds like you are making some huge changes for the better. I am sure she is noticing. "Hold on to Your N.U.T.S" would be a good read for you right now, it would really cement what you are doing.
I think the key and it is hard for some people is to own your strength and be strong for yourself. It's definitely not an overnight transformation but I read somewhere that if you act the way you want to be for a certain amount of time, you eventually adopt the framework & characteristics you were attempting to act like. I'm sure several months ago when I was trying to act like everything was ok, trying to appear happy, confident, etc. that it probably looked false and was transparent, easy to see through. But constantly learning about yourself, looking into personal development, getting counselling if you are depressed and need some therapy to get you back on your feet, taking care of yourself (going to a gym, getting healthier, stronger, more fit, eating better, shopping for new clothes & shoes, changing your boring old image, getting haircuts regularly,etc.) really goes a long way to building your self-esteem and feeling better about yourself. Once you start to feel better about yourself for real and you're no longer acting, you feel the strength that comes with that improved sense of self. You feel better about yourself because you are a better person and during that process you weren't with your spouse so you realize that in the end, the responsibility was always yours to take care of yourself and make yourself feel happy - that's another great lesson I've learned.
- I was that weak man that professed my undying love to a spouse who treated me horribly, took advantage of me, in the end was only interested in the things I could do for her and the paycheque I brought home.
- I was that weak man who put my wife on a pedestal and always felt she was too good for me
- I was that weak man who told my wife that I loved her more than myself and was afraid of losing her
- I was that weak man that let her walk all over me like a human doormat and accepted that poor treatment as a normal part of marriage (for better or for worse)
- I was that weak man who never asked for help because I felt like I didn't deserve help (again poor self-esteem)
- I was that weak man who believed that bad things happen to bad people and the reason I was treated so poorly and had such bad luck with my life, my wife and everything in this world was because I was somehow a bad person and I didn't do enough
- I was that weak man that believed that being a nice guy meant that you allowed people to treat you poorly and never complained about it
- I was that weak man that was too afraid to establish rules & boundaries with how people & my wife should treat me & respect me
I was that weak man.
I'm not a weak man anymore.
I am a strong man. I am becoming stronger everyday. I am strong and I don't have to step on other people to prove it. I prove it by taking care of myself, enjoying my individuality, setting a great example for my children, finally enjoying the work that I do (I was also that guy who complained about his dead end job, crappy hours, poor pay, overtime, etc.), going to the gym, working up a decent sweat, making myself physically stronger & healthier, shopping for myself and buying myself new clothes & items that I once believed that I never deserved... and this is all just the beginning. My friends see it, they see that I'm happy, funny again, they call me regularly (I had friends that called me regularly at the beginning of this mess just to make sure I was ok and wouldn't do something horrible to myself - the best friends a person could ask for, I'll always be thankful for them not giving up on me, my wife is actually jealous of them and has been for years, I never understood why, it's possibly because they treated me well always and she didn't like or respect that).
There are normal everyday things that people take for granted that would freeze me in my tracks: things like taking different routes to work or places that I'm travelling and being safe instead of intrepid, shopping for myself by myself whereas before I would be afraid to step in a store, let alone spend money on myself, spending money on myself and believing that I'm worth it whereas before never ever taking my needs into account.
I can do all of this without being resentful of my wife. It's not to say that I don't get angry every now & then (I'm human, it's normal emotion) but anger doesn't control my life anymore and I can't spend my entire day feeling sad or angry.
It's quite possible that without this marriage separation and how hurtful my wife was to me (and still is occasionally) that I would never have experienced the required stimulus to break out of my shell to become this person.
If you've ever heard the saying that you need to hit rock bottom to determine what direction up is, for me it's very accurate. It's pretty much when I lost everything that I considered important in my life that I discovered that I was the most important thing in my life and need to remember that always so that my children learn to be strong, happy, well rounded individuals with bright futures ahead of them and I can't just do it for them, I have to do it for me first for it to be a genuine lasting change.
I will definitely look for that book on amazon Mike, thanks again for the great reply back and affirming that some of the stuff I'm doing is working (at least I know it's working for me personally) - I've never felt better and more empowered as a human being.
It may sound sappy but it's the truth.
I'm stealing pretty much every word of this Rob - just so you know!
You just described me to a T - W still has an impact on me emotionally, but I've done all the rest, and am actually sort of surprised when I grew some balls, and stood up to W. She has backed down on every occasion - because I have been firm and not to be moved, but fair and considerate. Basically, a man.
Like this alot:
It's quite possible that without this marriage separation and how hurtful my wife was to me (and still is occasionally) that I would never have experienced the required stimulus to break out of my shell to become this person.
Finally not being a doormat, having a sense of self-worth, finding your spine and standing up for yourself. Sappy? I think not!
Yeah, grab those books and the others I recommended to you while you are on there. I actually recommend "No More Mr Nice Guy" first, as it will give you a deeper understanding when reading the others.
Mike writes: Finally not being a doormat, having a sense of self-worth, finding your spine and standing up for yourself. Sappy? I think not! ;\)
Nope... you sound like a Real Man.
God bless you.
Ali
Rob, you sound amazing and I understand about not being perfect. I hope you will allow yourself some slack and know that we all are going to backslide or make mistakes from time to time. However, when you told your wife that you did love her when she was so "needy" and asked you if you loved her.....that was okay and the way you handled it was fine. In fact, to have turned and walked away would not have been the thing to do. I look at it this way b/c I am looking from the viewpoint of a woman, of couse, but if she is good enough to have sex with....then......yes, you did the right thing. There is a time that a man has to be strong like steel and there is a time to be soft like velvet. Many years ago, I read a book called "Man of Steel and Velvet". The trick it to know when to be what!
You can let her know that, yes you do love her but that does not mean you will allow her to continue the treatment she dishes out. You can even tell her that you probably will always love her, but we can love a person and learn to move on without them....and that is what she needs to understand. Not that you are threatening her, but informing her.....maybe even educating her. Even when you told her what you did while you were angry.....I would not beat myself up about that. It may have even made her stop and think about what you said. At least you showed self-convidence (lol). Again. I think you are doing super great and yes, I love this board b/c we can come here and spill our guts and yet keep our identity safe. It helps to get all this off our chest.
So, here is that long list that I told you about. Don't freak out about it. It is simply a short cut guide of DBing. I think that looking over it (after reading the book, of course) doesn't take as long as trying to re-read some chater in the book. It helps keep certain DB principles planted in our minds. BTW, this list is really designed for a person who is really trying to draw their spouse back to them and it can be for a couple who are under the same roof or separated, you just have to judge for yourself.
UDATED LIST1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and
being clingy.) Show self-respect and self-confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10.Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11.Do not declare "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12.Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13.Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14.Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15.When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16.If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her
whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17.You need to make your partner think that you have had an
awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to
move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18.Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait
to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19.No matter what your emotions are TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. (Use balance here and don’t act like a fool trying to show “happiness”) This can confuse some of them (which is actually good) b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20.All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until
your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.
21.Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22.Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23.Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24.Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25.Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26.Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to
speak out (or scream and yell).
27.Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all
the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28.Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self
help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29.Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT
actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say
or write.
30.Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly
feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31.Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32.Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what
you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because
he/she is hurting and scared.
33.Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34.Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35.Do not send TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. NEVER LIE! When getting a life or trying to be mysterious….do not lie in order to be able to do it. You can be somewhat vague about what your plans are by not revealing all the details, but never even resemble lying to your spouse! Lying is not Dbing, so if you cannot carry out GAL on a particular time schedule without lying about what you are doing, then keep the trust and don’t lie to your spouse.
38. Do not keep company with the opposite sex. Do not turn to old friends of the opposite sex to talk to about your problems or just to hang out with them. This is not getting a life! This is not acceptable for a MR in trouble and could lead to you getting involved in an EA. If you cannot have your spouse present while you are with the friend of the opposite sex…..then you do not need to be with that friend. That includes any type of regular calls, emails, TM’s, etc., with friends of the opposite sex without the spouse present. You may not understand the seriousness, but it would be like pouring gasoline on a fire.
39. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.
I'm stealing pretty much every word of this Rob - just so you know!You just described me to a T - W still has an impact on me emotionally, but I've done all the rest, and am actually sort of surprised when I grew some balls, and stood up to W. She has backed down on every occasion - because I have been firm and not to be moved, but fair and considerate. Basically, a man.
Like this alot:
It's quite possible that without this marriage separation and how hurtful my wife was to me (and still is occasionally) that I would never have experienced the required stimulus to break out of my shell to become this person.
JD you're a riot, steal away, I'm glad you liked it!
Finally not being a doormat, having a sense of self-worth, finding your spine and standing up for yourself.
Sappy? I think not! Yeah, grab those books and the others I recommended to you while you are on there. I actually recommend "No More Mr Nice Guy" first, as it will give you a deeper understanding when reading the others.
- Thanks bro!!!
Books have been ordered, I look forward to receiving them soon!
Mike writes: Finally not being a doormat, having a sense of self-worth, finding your spine and standing up for yourself. Sappy? I think not! ;\)
Nope...
you sound like a Real Man.God bless you.
Ali
- Thanks Ali, I think it's the first time in my life that I've been living like a real man - it ain't half bad
I have Divorce Busting and the Divorce Remedy, maybe I'm blind, but I haven't seen a list of this size with all these items in it (maybe it's just the critic in me, the book could have used a better format, when it said step by step, I was literally looking for a step 1, step 2, etc. ... again I'm very analytical).
Thank you very much for posting this list in my thread, it's invaluable to have all this information in one location, it saves have to do so much searching throughout all the forums for this info.
It's really good stuff!!!! 
DB doesn't really have steps, but DR does. It is 7 steps iirc. Each chapter is a step? Been a few months since I read it. Yeah, it is not exactly gonna hold your hand, but every page is valuable material if this stuff is foreign to you.
The collective experience of the people on these forums has really evolved a body of knowledge outside of the books, but rooted deeply in them.
This last weekend, my wife pulled a 180 from her recent good behavior and just started letting me have it. I didn't get drawn into the argument though, when she started using poor language and started saying hurtful things, etc. I pretty much let her know that I wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior and if she wanted to talk with someone like that, she would need to call someone else. She called several times, hanging up after a few statements each time and each time I remained calm, cool & collected.
I told her at the end, that she would apologize for all of the hurtful remarks she made. I didn't say she had to, only that she would.
After this weekend, I didn't call her once, didn't text her, etc.
She has had the kids since Monday this week and I'll be picking them up tomorrow to have them for 4-5 days (we switch back & forth like this, it works, we live relatively close to each other and it gives us equal time with the kids, etc.) However last night my daughter had a dance class and we always attend those together, we just meet up at the school and watch our kid learn her hip-hop class. I came in @ 5 min. after class had started (traffic & crappy weather) and sat in the same area where my wife & son were. I looked at her and didn't say a thing, I wasn't mean, just silent. She said "Hi How are you", I gave a quick short response but didn't initiate any conversation, at the end of the night I told her I would pick up the kids on friday from school and have them and she agreed, again all small talk and nothing else. Very brief.
Apparently this morning while I was driving to school, she stopped by our home and was looking for some of the kids books. She called me several times, texted me several times, I replied to her call and she was moody asking me where these books were, I told her simply that I wasn't home, didn't know why she was there without letting me know first and that I didn't know where the books were and I had to go.
She texted me several times asking if this is my way of not talking to her because of last weekend's episode. After a while I texted back (I took my time) and let her know that I wasn't afraid to talk to her, wasn't hiding from her, I was busy and didn't have time to talk about where these books were (all of a sudden she is looking for books that have probably been sitting in a pile somewhere in the basement for months). It bothered her that I wasn't making myself available to her every whim, you could tell by the way she was talking (you can hear the needy "me, me, me" tone of her voice).
I have observed that when you stopped pursuing, don't communicate often & regularly with a spouse that has left. When the communication was previously regular & daily, it causes a vacuum. Her missing it may be an overstatement but I have seen this happen too many times now to shrug it off as mere coincidence. I'm not being an a$$hole to her, I'm just not making myself as available to her as I was when we were married and living together. Moving on, acting as if everything is fine, limiting contact, stopping pursuing causes a vacuum, changes the dynamic so that your spouse is pulled in.
Anyone else see or experience this?
I'm not being an a$$hole to her, I'm just not making myself as available to her as I was when we were married and living together. Moving on, acting as if everything is fine, limiting contact, stopping pursuing causes a vacuum, changes the dynamic so that your spouse is pulled in.
Anyone else see or experience this?
Everyone who had applied the principles correctly has seen some degree of what you have experienced, IMHO. There may be a case or two where the WAW was too far gone by the time the LBH began to apply the techniques that you have been given.
I am very excited about your work! I think you have just begun to get her undivided attention by making yourself unavailable to her. Now, what I am about to tell you is important so put it under you cap to remember (lol). Right now she is trying to convince herself that you are acting like this b/c you are upset at her for the way she talked. When some time passes or she apologizes for her talk, then continue on the path you are going so she will realize that the apology did not change you being unavailable to her. In time......when she begins to realize you are not trying to just act like....a you know what.....then you will be able to start showing more personality and charm when in her presence. And yet....you stay unavailable to her, and it drives her nuts! After some more time has passed and if things are a little more civil, you are showing a little more charm each time you see her and finally you can even reach a point that some light flirting is allowed.....but you are still unavailable to her.....and it drives her insane (lol). All the time, this is constantly drawing her closer and closer to you b/c she is attracted to you and wants you again! But you can't for a while, okay? Timing is everthing! You don't want to act cold etc. when you are around her......after some time has passed.....but you did perfect at the dance!! She will start finding excuses to call and email and TM until it will get almost funny. She will start trying to play up to you just to see if it works anymore. As I told you before....expect her to get her bag of tricks and pull out everything just to see if she can gain the control again. She wants that power! The less she has and the more unavaialbe you are....the more attracted she will be, and the more interested she will be, and the curiousity will eat her up.......(if you are a little mysterious about your getting a life!)
If you stick to the list I gave you as best as you can.....you will start to see a lot of changes. Things will start to get very interesting and increase by the day. You can come here and give us a play by play every night.....lol. Your part is to stay relax and trust the DB techniques. If you start to get mad.......walk away or hang up (whichever the case). Don't let her talk down to you when on the phone or in person.....walk away in her mid sentence or hang up the phone. That will piss her off to no end, but at the same time it teaches her a valuable lesson of respect for you! It won't take but a time or two before she stops doing that....if she has any brains. If she is very high tempered and use to getting her way....then it may take more lesson than for the usual person....
But stick with what you are doing. I am so proud of you!
I know you are pouring a lot of time into the kids and that is what you need to do b/c this is rough on them being thrown back and forth. They need all your affection and inforcing the feelings of security at this time. I'm sure you know all of this stuff. Anyway, what I was going to say is not to forget on the days you don't have the kids to do something for yourself in GAL. Don't do anything you will regret in the future. Remember you are still married. Don't lie about what you are doing, but you don't have to reveal your business to your W, either. You might say enough to sound mysterious if she asks questions....lol. Don't do like one man and misunderstand the message I'm sending out here. If you have any question about anything, please ask before doing.
Check on you later. Take care.
Sandi2
Thanks for checking up on me Sandi.
Well I kept quiet this week, like I said I would.
While I was out last night (gym, grocery shopping, life in general), I left my cell in my gym bag and she had called twice and texted at least 3-4 times asking where I was, if I was ok and if she could come over for a bit when she dropped for the kids because she wanted to talk.
When she dropped off my son, she had also bought lunch for him and brought it home and she picked me up something as well. She apologized for acting poorly last weekend, she tried to rationalize it by saying that I am limiting her con.
I told her that although I appreciated the apology, she continues to do the same thing over & over again. It's like this book we bought our kids a few years ago titled "I'm sorry", basically this kid keeps doing things and saying sorry and then at the end he's told that sometimes sorry isn't enough and if sorry isn't enough, he has to learn to do better. I told her that book was just as good for her as it was for the kids.
I won't tolerate that kind of behavior. Everyone can have a rough day and I can understand that (most anyone can for sure) but I told her she focuses that crap on me too many times for it to be coincidental and I'm just not taking it anymore. I appreciate the apology but actions are louder than words.
As for me, I'm doing good.
Hi robx,
I'm new on here but have read through your thread a few times. My H is considering separation (we have no kids though) so I'm in the DB boat with you trying to do everything that I can. I too am sure that my H has not had any relationship with any other woman at this point, just needs to work through his own problems, so we'll see where this all ends up. I'll try to check in again soon. Keep it up!
what circumstances led to the marriage problems and separation?
Rob,
I'm having similar results. I have gone VERY dark - I don't answer any of her calls at all, just check voice mail. I also only respond to texts that concern the kids.
At first she was nasty as well - put up pictures of OM, etc. She also refused to talk to me as well. I simply kept dark and sweated it out. Then she started texting me about the kids, and slipping little conversational things in - I am still simply responding with "OK".
In my case, it is probably too late, so my focus is to simply put myself in a situation where she cannot hurt me, and cause as little hurt to the kids.
It is having an impact - I'm seeing where she is feeling the vacuum, it's whether she cares enough or not.
It is an effective technique - whether you go completely dark as I have, or "dim" as you are doing just responding as necessary.
It's funny how a WAW will get all indignant with you - even though they are the ones breaking up a family, marriage, etc.
Thanks for checking up on me Sandi.
Well I kept quiet this week, like I said I would.
While I was out last night (gym, grocery shopping, life in general), I left my cell in my gym bag and she had called twice and texted at least 3-4 times asking where I was, if I was ok and if she could come over for a bit when she dropped for the kids because she wanted to talk.
When she dropped off my son, she had also bought lunch for him and brought it home and she picked me up something as well. She apologized for acting poorly last weekend, she tried to rationalize it by saying that I am limiting her con.
I told her that although I appreciated the apology, she continues to do the same thing over & over again. It's like this book we bought our kids a few years ago titled "I'm sorry", basically this kid keeps doing things and saying sorry and then at the end he's told that sometimes sorry isn't enough and if sorry isn't enough, he has to learn to do better. I told her that book was just as good for her as it was for the kids.
I won't tolerate that kind of behavior. Everyone can have a rough day and I can understand that (most anyone can for sure) but I told her she focuses that crap on me too many times for it to be coincidental and I'm just not taking it anymore. I appreciate the apology but actions are louder than words.
As for me, I'm doing good.
You said she would apologize.....and she did! Didn't take long, huh? You are using tough love and it is shocking her, I'm sure, but seems to be working. Stick to the list, you are doing fantasic!
Sandi
Rob
Just wanted to stop by and check in on YOU for a change! I appreciate all of your advice, you really knocked some sense back into me and I really appreciate it! I don't know if I would have done what I did last week if it wasn't for you stopping by my thread..so a big thank you!
How did your weekend turn out? If you don't mind I am going to steal some of the steps that Sandi gave you ;)Those are great!
Hi robx,
How are you doing? I survived (intact) through the long weekend, and even chalked up the first ever MC session. Even for someone who's not really that into Valentine's day as a holiday, I found it to be really hard.
How's it going?
Hi Rob, just checking in to see how the weekend went. I was reading back over some of your post and this caught my eye again. I meant to comment on it before and never did. You said:
I was that weak man who believed that bad things happen to bad people and the reason I was treated so poorly and had such bad luck with my life, my wife and everything in this world was because I was somehow a bad person and I didn't do enough
This is a common belief amoung people, but the truth is that bad things happen to good people. I can't explain that without getting off into religious doctrines, but the truth is that bad things happen to everyone. I do think that bad thing happen a lot to good people b/c it has to do with "good vs. evil".
Anyway, I am so glad that you have overcome a lot. When I read that list it is over-whelming to know that you were carrying that burden around with you and how you have overcome all of that. I would think that once your wife gets her eyes open and can see this new man in front of her that she will practically swoon at his feet. You deserve a woman that would feel that way toward you after all that hard work. At least you have the dignity that you want and I think you will always strive to keep it.
Hope you have a great week. Stay in touch.
Sandi
I had the kids this last weekend starting on friday (and for part of this week, we trade over several days at a time - it works) and we had a good weekend.
Let me start off by saying that:
1. I didn't say I love you
2. Didn't wish her a happy valentine's day
3. Didn't buy her any gifts
This is a huge departure from what I normally would do, last year at the same time a couple months after we separated I wrote her a huge letter professing my love for her, bought her an expensive gift/gifts, etc.
I truly believe you have to show them what it will be like when you're gone & out of the picture. The attention you used to provide your spouse, the gifts, the love, etc. You literally have to make that stuff disappear - they expect what they normally rec'd from you and when you don't provide it to them, that is what causes them to notice.
Another thing to point out is this, if you profess your undying love & devotion, purchase expensive gifts, write beautiful cards & love letters to a person who is separating from you - it demonstrates to them that you have low value and low self-esteem and validates the point they are rationalizing in their head that it's a good idea to leave you. I mean they are treating you poorly, disrespecting you, rejecting you and you are still pursuing them. It's very unattractive to do these things with someone who is leaving you. You are showing them that you are conquered, you are showing them that you are willing to take any treatment you get from them just for love which shows how much you don't love yourself. How can anyone love someone who doesn't love & respect themselves?
I appeared happy (well actually I was happy, so it wasn't that hard to pull off, LOL!) Had a great time with my kids, we did a ton of stuff together. My wife had a temper tantrum again and said some mean & hurtful things and she apologized again - I won't tolerate that crap behavior anymore, seriously why should anyone have to tolerate that?! She asked if she could spend valentine's day with me & the kids because she missed the kids and because it was valentine's day, I wasn't heartless, I could see she was hurting so I told her it was more than ok as long as she was civil towards me and didn't start any fights/arguments.
She was very nice to me this weekend and tried to explain why she has been acting poorly (it's the same excuses all the time but that's ok, I allowed her to vent as long as it wasn't at my expense). I also told her that if she thinks she can wiggle her a$$ because she knows I want sex that she is mistaken, she doesn't have that kind of hold on me and it kind of surprised her. She asked for hugs a few times and I didn't reject her, she would come to me and I would hold her and it's possible she may have been acting but she really needed to be held and I held her. We had some good periods of conversation (non-relationship focused) and generally had a good time together.
It was a good weekend.
Hope you all had a good weekend as well! ;-)
I also told her that if she thinks she can wiggle her a$$ because she knows I want sex that she is mistaken, she doesn't have that kind of hold on me and it kind of surprised her.
Well, brace yourself my friend, b/c now that you have made that statement, she will be determined to break you. She will pour the heat on like you won't believe! She won't mean it. she only wants to "prove" that she can break you down.
I am glad you have stopped with the gift buying, saying I love you and taking her crap. She could also learn to control her tempter fits. Anybody can that truly wants to, but she will do it as long as she knows you will allow her to do it. If it spoils your day or the kids's.....I would tell her..."no more".
You are doing great.
Sandi
as always, thanks Sandi, I appreciate the reinforcement and the reply back. Yup, I'm going to stick to my guns and truth be told, her ways are getting boring and I'm getting tired of them, I don't think resisting will be that hard (yes I will try to remember this when the "hunger" returns - I sound like a vampire at this point LOL!)
well my wife has the kids for the rest of the week until sunday and I won't contact her, initiate any phone calls, emails, txt's, etc.
- she does seem to need to be around us when I have the kids and she gets emotional and the temper tantrums happen, etc.
- she also notices that I'm not needy and seem to have my life in order ("it seems so easy for you, none of this affects you, etc."). If I have to be honest, it has been much easier these past few months so if anyone is asking the question of whether or not any of this gets easier, it does eventually (it did for me anyways). Detaching and "going dark", limiting contact & communications, etc. works both for you & your spouse. When you limit the amount of time you spend thinking about them, pursuing them, etc. After a while you get used to them not being there (and i don't mean that in a mean or angry way, yes I still love my wife) and life really does go on. The effect is that you're not pursuing anymore, you allow a fair amount of noticeable space between you and the spouse that left you or wants to leave you, whereas before you were pressuring and pleading for them not to leave them. When they have you and don't want you, they're pushing you away and you're trying to pull them closer. When you get used to detaching and getting a life and finding your individuality again, you're no longer pulling them towards you, it is similar to you pushing them away (indirectly) and they feel the difference and for the most part they are drawn to you by sheer curiousity - "why aren't they pursuing me anymore, my ego was enjoying this feeling of power & authority, it felt good".
Does this work? Every situation is different and I can't say there is a guarantee for everyone because I can't say that there is a guarantee for me.
This morning she (my wife) called me after I dropped the kids off at school. I had already told her the previous night that she would be picking up the kids from school today at specific times. She called me this morning and said "good morning" in a pleasant tone(being nice to me, I haven't done anything for her and I didn't give her any gifts for valentine's day) asked what I was doing (driving to work today since you have the kids I will work from the office instead of home today), asked me if I had seen her mp3 player recently (why would i know where that is? - that wasn't my response just the thought in my head at the time), told me to drive safe and to have a good day at work (and I replied the same back to her) and I said bye first, she said it too and then I hung up, short & sweet, no questions, no asking her what she was going to do today on her day off because it wasn't my business and I didn't really need to know. I was polite without being overly interested in her affairs and what she was doing - she was very polite and nice to me during the phone call.
Detached, getting a life, being independant and going dark, it does seem to work in bringing them closer to you and having them gain interest in you. When you're not there everyday, not talking everyday, you have a certain mystery about you and they are inclined to wonder about you and ask questions. It also makes you more attractive to them because you aren't with them anymore and they can see that you're functioning just great without them instead of wallowing in self-pity.
Wow, Rob - way to go!
You sound like you're in such a strong place right now.
That's so great!
It gives me a real sense of hope that someday I too will achieve the level of calm and composure that you're demonstrating.
Thanks for the inspiration.
Wow, Rob - way to go!
You sound like you're in such a strong place right now.
That's so great!
It gives me a real sense of hope that someday I too will achieve the level of calm and composure that you're demonstrating.
Thanks for the inspiration.
Thank you Lemonsnap, your words are very encouraging, it's nice to get positive feedback.
Just remember, it wasn't an overnight transformation, I took a fair amount of lumps along the way to feel the way I do right now, personally 2008 was the hardest, most painful and probably also the best year of my life. It's the most amount of growth I've ever experienced in my whole life and it's funny to say it but it required this kind of stimulus to jolt me into this growth and becoming this way.
If you allow yourself to experience this growth and don't remain guarded (ie. attacking first before someone attacks you), continue to wear your heart on your sleeve but allowing yourself to experience a great life in the face of adversity, you too will experience the kind of individual growth that you never knew you were capable of. If a few years ago I could peek into the future and look at me now, I'm sure I would have thought it was impossible to be the kind of person I am today and that should tell you that the potential inside of you to become something much greater exists in all of us, it's waiting to be accessed and used.
It's like going to the gym and working your muscles, they're only going to grow and get bigger if they get pushed hard enough and are forced to adapt to conditions that never previously presented themselves.
You can wallow in self-pity all of your life (I've done that for a fair bit of my life) or you can recognize that you have the gift of life, make use of it and live a great one. The side effects are that you will become an amazingly strong, attractive and energetic person - someone you never knew could exist.
Here's another thought, if I'm this way right now after all of this has happened to me, what happens if I continue to press forward, continue to improve and continue to make use of my untapped potential? I never thought I could be this way several years ago, who knows what I could be like a few years from now if I continue improving?
It's kind of exciting when you think about it.
You are more than capable of it too, the only thing you have to do is believe in yourself and just do it. ;-)
You are doing fantastic!! So proud of you. Yes it does work but getting people to believe that when they first come here is hard to do b/c of their fear of losing their spouse. They cannot understand how pulling back draws them closer to you, but it does.
Let me ask you a question about her temper tantrums. If she is having one of these and the phone rings or somebody comes to the door, does she immediately cut it out and act normal? If so, that proves she can control her fits but she just does not want to do it. People who throw tantrums....LIKE throwing them. They have used that as their tool of emotional blackmail for so long until some do not know what else to do to get their way, so they act like a two-year old. However, it is much, much worse when it is an adult behaving like that. There is no excuse for it. It shames me to think my own gender acts like that instead of acting like a graceful and poised lady!
asked me if I had seen her mp3 player recently (why would i know where that is? -
Isn't it so funny to sit back and watch this played out for you? I mean it is sooo obvious that she was looking for any excuse to call you. Yep, it is working just fine! So, keep doing what works b/c you are finding cheese at the end of those tunnels.
Take care,
Sandi
Hi Sandi, seriously I think I have a fan club in you ;-)
I love the positive reinforcement, I feel pretty good as it is but reading your replies just puts that little extra in there that makes you feel even better - I appreciate it, thank you very much!!!
You can pretty much ask anything so no worries there.
Yes I've seen that she can control them, I've actually brought it up on occasion with her. She can be perfectly fine with her friends and she has never had a flare up with them - I pointed that out to her. When we were living together, I remembered her having a bad day, temper tamtrum, being rude, miserable and lethargic, doing nothing at home all day (and this was during a period of time where she willfully quit her job) complaining she felt sick or tired (or both) and then at 9 or 10 in the evening, getting dolled up and going out with friends to a club or a restaurant and I would comment that she apparently felt much better in an instant.
She does act that way, she has all her life and I would give in to it all the time.
No worries though, I don't give in to it anymore. I don't do it to resist an argument or stop a fight, I basically tell her that I don't feel like rewarding her crap behavior with my attention so she can act the way she wants to act as long as she knows that I won't be there to watch & listen to her act like an immature brat and that she was very unattractive when she acted that way. The first time I ever mentioned this exact thing to her (a few months ago when I was learning to stand up for myself), it threw her off balance, she was visibly affected, she didn't understand it that I wasn't going to sit there and accept her tantrums as normal adult behavior. I told her she was boring & unattractive when she did this and I had better things to do with my time than waste them on every episode like this one.
Yes you're right, it is funny to sit back and watch this play out as it has been. I had the kids for my share of the time and when I told her that she would be taking them for the next several days, she was also thrown off, I had them for a few extra days (some scheduling snafu's at her work required me to have them a bit longer) and I guess she was enjoying the freedom of not having to take care of the kids so when I told her she would take them she was left off balance. "You mean you can't watch them?", "I'm not really prepared to take them", "haven't done their laundry in a bit" (she lives with her parents, they take care of most of this stuff for her), "Maybe it would be easier if you kept them for the rest of the week". To which I replied, if you need clean clothes for the kids, you can come by & pick up whatever you need from what I have because i just did the laundry and we're up to date at our end plus I have a few things do the rest of this week. She asked if I was going out last night or this week, I eluded that it was possible that I was but didn't give her any details, she had more questions along those lines about wanting to know where I was, she genuinely curious, my cell rang a few times when were talking and I just muted it each time and she asked who it was, I told her just a friend - it was funny because my phone is usually never that busy so that made her more curious (I didn't take the calls while talking to her), she told me it was ok to speak to whoever was calling, I told her I know it's ok but i have caller ID and I can call them back after she leaves. She came by to pick up the clothes but she was shook up, you could tell she had things to say, questions to ask but didn't know how to do either. She can tell that I have a life without her, I think that is what is throwing her for a loop, she's still not used to me going out with my friends, doing stuff outside the family, being happy & cheerful. "It just seems so easy for you to move on", "you seem to be handling all of this very well", "how come the kids listen to you more than they listen to me", etc. etc.
I know she can see the changes - it's because the changes are real, nothing to fake, that's the beauty of it.
I will keep doing all of this and not because of her but because it's good for me to be happy, have a life, realize my potential, be a good father and regain my individuality again and just live life the way it was meant to be lived.
The kids have some sort of school play happening this evening, she bought me a ticket, reminded me what time it is starting and she told me she will save me a seat next to her if we don't arrive at the same time and to have a good day at work.
Thanks again for the positive feedback, I'm doing great.
And no... I haven't seen her mp3 player anywhere lately ;-)
she texted me and asked me if she could come by my place and asked me if I would help her paint her toe nails tonight - she has never asked me to do this before - ever.
- I could reject the request and just tell her I have other plans
- I could say yes but tell her that if it involves "a$$ wiggling" (her trying to see if I want sex from her, I guess her power trip) that I will have to decline
Honestly, I want to but don't want to come off as being desperate. I could play it cool and do it, it could be a nice bonding experience without any relationship talk and it's a type of physical intimacy without the sex part.
She does have nice feet and I do love how they look after a pedicure.
Suggestions anyone?
Rob,
Going to a school play is probably a good idea right now - sit by her, enjoy a good time.
Painting toe nails is not a good idea - I've never heard of a woman asking a man to help paint toe nails - I know I've tried to help my D8, and I just do a horrible job, and she knows that.
I would take a "rain check" - have something authentic to do, and if you really feel like it is genuine, then have an alternative ready, but make it something public and light - like going to a coffee shop.
I would also watch closely to how she reacts - if she gets mad and pouts, it probably was a$$ wiggling. If she is nice about it, then maybe she meant it, and she should be OK with doing something else. It sounds to me like she just got bit by the jealous bug!
Rob,
Going to a school play is probably a good idea right now - sit by her, enjoy a good time.
Painting toe nails is not a good idea - I've never heard of a woman asking a man to help paint toe nails - I know I've tried to help my D8, and I just do a horrible job, and she knows that.
I would take a "rain check" - have something authentic to do, and if you really feel like it is genuine, then have an alternative ready, but make it something public and light - like going to a coffee shop.
I would also watch closely to how she reacts - if she gets mad and pouts, it probably was a$$ wiggling. If she is nice about it, then maybe she meant it, and she should be OK with doing something else. It sounds to me like she just got bit by the jealous bug!
I just googled it and apparently alot of women out there have asked their spouses/significant other's for help painting their toe nails so it's more common than I would have believed.
Since it would be my first time, I'm sure the intended effect wouldn't be perfection, just affection?
I'm not sure either, this request is new to me and lately she has been doing some pursuing of me.
I say if you want to do it, then do it. If not, don't. Don't worry about what you are doing as much as how you go about it (decisive, warn her you might suck at it and tell her she is not to get upset if you f it up, have fun with it).
Just don't let her put the nail polish on you, and you will be fine lol.
Yeah, ultimately up to you - I just thought it was a pretty drastic jump in attitude, and since you mentioned the sexual conquest stuff, I would wonder!
she texted me and asked me if she could come by my place and asked me if I would help her paint her toe nails tonight - she has never asked me to do this before - ever.
Oh this just keeps getting better by the minute!! It is better than watching a movie....LOL. Well, I am glad that you googled this information b/c I have been M many years and it has never one time crossed my mind to ask my H to paint my toenails! I'm sure he would probable have me committed......somewhere.
You mentioned that I was a fan......oh you better believe it! I wish you could bottle what you have found and sell it to all the LBH's......and LBW's---as far as that goes. It works for both sexes. You have to be sold on yourself before you can sell yourself to somebody else and that is exactly why it is not fake for you. That is what you have accomplished. It is great. I just don't want you to mess up by being overcome by fumes of nail polish....LOL. It does seem frivilous and I would find an excuse or just laugh and say that you will have to decline (or even that you plan to recline....lol). She is so curious about what you are up to that she is about to pop! I loved that part about your cell phone ringing and you handled that so perfectly! I got such a kick out of reading that. She really has her nerve asking who it was on the phone, doesn't she? Oh, but you are learning so fast just how to answer and as I have said to others, if you aren't sure what to say, just smile. Just b/c she asks, you
don't have to answer. I think she will start coming by unexpectantly to see if you have female company there. She does seem to be getting desparate for excuses....LOL.
BTW, I also loved how you handled the situation with the kids. Good for you! And the part about how you were keeping up with the kids laundry on your end of it......was priceless. I just wouldn't make it a practice to be doing "all" the laundry just b/c she doesn't do what she is suppose to be doing. Like I've said, you have to almost treat her like a child b/c that is exactly how she is behaving. What you said about her parents told me a lot about why she throws those fits. I would be willing to bet that is how she got what she wanted from them all her life. But to see a grown woman do it is terrible! I'm sorry to say it, but I have seen more than a few that resort to that behavior b/c that is what they always did. You said it....it is very unactractive, not to mention how unladylike it is.
I would not worry at this point of not showing or returning as much attention (and especially any affection) to her as she is giving to you. That is the point. She needs to "work" for you. You are becoming more and more attractive to her. So, don't quit now. Plus, after the cell ringing in perfect time, she wonders if another female out there is after you, so that will make you even
more attractive. It is just old human nature......that is how it works.
You are being unavailable to her, and you are being vague about your plans; you are forcing her hand about keeping the kids when she
should--and give you time to GAL; you are holding her feet to the fire about the fits; and yet you manage to do this without coming across as an a$$. I love the way it has just rocked her world.....hahahaha. I can see why it would shake her up, but I can almost promise you without a doubt that if you keep doing what is working.......she will be yours (if you decide you still want her). You have changed so much that you
may even change your feelings toward her and decide you deserve better. If that happens, and for the sake of the M and the kids--I hope it
doesn't and the two of you can get back together, but if it should happen then don't beat yourself to death b/c you certainly have worked hard and I know you are going to
continue working as long as there is love in your heart and you can see hope at the end of the rainbow.
I would suggest that when she does come to you wanting to reconcile the M that you have your plan of action ready to put into place....you know, for when you have the "big talk" with her. In other words, know exactly what you want from the M and what you will do and what you expect out of her as a wife and a mother. If she does not agree 100% or if there can't be a compromise about part of it.....then it won't work and she will be right back where she is now. I would also let her know that at the top of that list is no more fit throwing, and that there will be no more breaking up and going back together. B/c some women will do this off and on again and again and you don't want to live like that. They love the "game" and it is craziness.
Okay, well I will tune in for the continuing story tomorrow---same time, same channel.
Take care,
Sandi
lol Sandi, I have to agree, this thread is tivo worthy, now where did I put my remote?
Happy to see you growing stronger robx, you deserve it.
"tivo worthy"
- my goodness, I've become a soap opera show and I didn't even know it (incidentally, the pay is crap)
LOL!
Thank you all for your kind words & support, it is appreciated.
The kids play went well tonight, she saved me a seat in a packed, standing room only school gym and was very nice to me and initiated all of the conversations (ie. "nice to see you, how was work, did you have time for supper, how was traffic, do you think I dressed up our son & daughter ok, etc.").
By the time the school play was finished, it was past the kid's bedtime, I walked them to her minivan, buckled up the kids, told them goodnight and said bye to her. I told her I was going to the gym (that's when I usually go, in the evening) and I didn't have time to paint her toe nails tonight, she replied that it was ok and maybe another night and I said "sure, maybe."
;-)
Seriously I don't know if any of this is going to fix my marriage and bring her back to me but I'm not wallowing in self-pity anymore, I'm doing better than OK, I'm doing really good, thanks to all for stopping by.
Have a good night! :-)
Hi Rob,
I looked you up because of your posts to someone else. As I was reading your last posts I was saying to myself "dear God I hope he didnt...paint her toe nails!!!". I was so glad you didnt.
Right now she is going to try everything in her power to see that needy look in your face again. Sadly, it is all standard procedure as you must have seen here on the boards. The moment the LBS starts to have a life and seperates their own happiness from the WAS, the WAS is looking back interested to know what happened. There was a great analogy once posted on this board, the picknik analogy. I will try to find it.
Anyway, one thing that I believe makes a difference, whatever you do, make sure you are calm and in "good spirit". It has to be clear that you are NOT acting the way you are (refusing her proposals etc etc ) because of anger or to punish her. It has to be clear you are acting this way because... you dont feel like it, because you have better things to do, because you have plans etc etc.
So, try to be polite and as we say in greek "kill her with cotton". (In my case my H tested me for sometime, wanted to see if I was acting out of spite, I remember sometimes I would do something really caring like say "button up your coat, it's cold out there" with a sweet voice as he was dropping the kids off and he would be really shocked. It didnt match the vindictive -excuse me for my spelling- motive he was looking for).
Anyway, I think you are doing GREAT!!! Sandi is a veteran, she has your back covered.
Take care
K
I have read the Superior Man recently and actually suggested it to some of my male friends here. When he talks about women -as far as I am concerned- he knows what he is talking about. I love that book!
Thank you Kalni, I think your advice is spot on.
I won't reject her out of spite, I will just be pleasant and tell her I'm busy and have something to do.
Sandi does have my back, as well as quite a few others on this forum (Spellfire, JD also come to mind as being frequent posters on my thread).
That book is fantastic, I wish I had it growing up - in fact it should be required reading for all men.
I've been reading some of my posts and I hope I don't come off as being spiteful or vindictive against my wife or women in general. I love women and I love my wife very much and I'm sure I'm becoming the man I've always wanted to be, it could be that I'm also becoming the man she always wanted me to be which is why she is more pleasant with me now than in the beginning of our separation.
Thank you for the great feedback and comments, I am going GREAT and I'll assume my life can only get better!
Man, I'm so happy that's the way it worked out. That is actually perfect. You had a fun FAMILY time - light, breezy, good conversation, and you didn't get it all thick and heavy.
And, sure enough, she responded as I hoped - by taking a rain check.
That was a perfect interaction - not only because of how you handled her, but because of how you handled YOU!
Again, when you get your head into a place where you are making decisions for yourself, and not some sly trick to bring your WAS back, things start to come together nicely!
Thanks JD, I appreciate the support.
It did work out well and I think the last point you made is what most people on this site need to realize, none of this can be a trick to bring back your partner - the changes have to be real and most importantly, they have to be done for yourself, not for your spouse's benefit.
Thanks again bro for your support!!!
She has been asking me lately, today more than other days, why I haven't been conversational and why I don't reply quickly to her text message, emails, voicemails, etc.
Basically most of her texts aren't questions, more like telling me what she will be doing and really don't require a response from me unless it's like a yes or no question, or asking for my opinion on something.
Example:
- "You can say something like ok so i know you got txt"
- "Did you get txt you havent responded"
- "Did you not get my txt did i answer you correctly or enough"
I feel like replying back and saying "Cause you're boring and I'm tired of replying back every 2 minutes", or "because i'm following divorce busting techniques LOL!" (just kidding, I wouldn't tell her that)
"Coz I'm busy doing more important things" ohhh burn sssss. jk, don't say that.
-Oh, I love this strong hinting for a compliment going on here:
do you think I dressed up our son & daughter ok
How did you keep from laughing out loud? So funny! Yes, she is trying to see what is making you tick. If you won't volunteer a compliment, then she will fish for one. She is so obvious. And don't you love the way she threw in there "our" son & daughter? So cozy!
The constant text messaging would really get on my nerves, to tell the truth. You will have to come up with a good reply that will shake her up a bit more....LOL. But, for now, just telling her that you have other things you are involved in, too busy, mind on something else, anything but an answer to a direct stupid question she has trying to make you dance to her song. She is so use to snapping her fingers and see you run to her that she is going nuts trying to get you to jump when she says "frog". I think at first it is funny to see how silly she can be out of her own desperation and you may even be tempted to ask her how it feels to be the one in that place for a change, but of course you don't (and I know you wouldn't) do that. I think you may be correct in that after a while of this immature stuff, it could become very boring to you b/c you see....you are growing as a person....and she isn't. You may outgrow her and see all that immaturity as a huge turn-off. That goes back to what you were saying before about the possibility that your feelings toward her could change. Improving and growing is a wonderful thing to accomplish and I would not discourage anyone from doing that with their own life.....even for the sake of a R. Hope I don't get bashed for saying that, but if you have to hold yourself back from developing into a much better human being than you were before......why would anyone say not to do that in order to try to hold on to an old R that didn't work? Besides, that is one of the very first things DB teaches.....is to get to work improving yourself. I only hope that she will wake up, wise up, grow up, and start working on herself and the M before too much water is under the bridge.
In the meantime, keep on doing the good work. I had to laugh out loud when you said the pay was crap.....LOL. But it is entertaining to say the least! Too bad it is at
her expense. Maybe it will start to change for the better soon. The ball is in her court now b/c you are certainly doing all the right things. I hope she has enough smarts to see what she needs to do. Stay on guard, keep your focus and your eye on the goal.
Take care,
Sandi
Just wanted to tell you that I have told a couple of men on the board about your thread and encouraged them to read it. I think it would inspire them. So, now you are a role model....
Have a good day.
Sandi
Hey there Rob, I'm writing to you as one of those men who Sandi pointed in your direction. Can I just say, you have become my inspiration!! I can't believe you got as far as you did without even reading DB or DR. I was quite lucky in that I found this site fairly early in my sitch. You are so far ahead of me in finding yourself that it's frightening. You do however give me hope that I can get to where you're at.
Like your W, mine seems to be acting very immature with everything. Hopefully, I can react to it as well as you in future.
I'm going to be keeping up with your thread from now on to keep getting that inspiration. Thank you for your thread. Good luck on your sitch.
Kev
Rob, I have been reading on your thread also, mainly because of the wonderful Sandi and her brilliant advice but have also discovered other wonderful people like Spellfire and the others who are so insightful.
Your attitude is fantastic and your POV regarding your W's tantrums is very revealing about a husband's mind. Thank you very much.
I have a question, you are in an enviable position where your W is trying to catch you attention again. My H seems just so detached, how did you get to this stage because this happened before your time here on DB BB. I am curious and want to know how you managed it. Thanks.
Things are going really well at my end.
I'm doing great, the kids are doing great, got a wicked a$$ review from my boss recently and the job is really starting to turn around from being the thing I've hated for so long to being something that is worth the time I invest in it. I have lost 35-40 lbs. since January 07, my waist is down to a 32-34 (depends on the jeans, down from a 38-40), I've gained a fair amount of muscle and improved my health quite a bit, I shop regularly because i enjoy it and I live life fully and laugh often because it feels good to feel good.
My wife is doing more pursuing and she is still throwing her temper tantrums (and of course I'm not rewarding her crap behavior with my attention, I think she is starting to get the idea.)
Quick recap of my situation:
- We separated back in November 07, she had me move out in January 08 (my birthday is in January which didn't help), several months of personal hell and different types of counselling, peer groups, personal development, books, taking care of myself, losing weight, buying clothes, looking better, feeling better and learning that I had to do the opposite of what I had been doing to feel better about myself has really paid off. I heard everything from my wife: I don't love you, maybe i never did love you, love you but not in love with you. She made my life horrible, she became someone alien: hurtful, spiteful, vindictive, yelling, swearing, cursing, demeaning - basically the opposite of anyone I ever knew and would have ever fallen in love with much less spend my life with and have children with. While I lived outside of the family home, I paid every bill for my family and my own expenses, lived on credit card fumes and took care of my kids whenever I was allowed to see them while my wife worked part-time whenever she felt like it, lived it up with her friends (aka "the divorced wives" club), partying, clubbing, bar hopping, spending time with other men and doing god knows what, etc. She even held parties at my home with people I didn't know. Take into account we bought that home in July 07, I spent 3 months renovating it from the dump it was to the comfortable home it is now and then she drops the bomb on me in November 07 and I'm out in January 08.
6 months into my separation, she takes a trip to visit her brother and takes the kids with her. She asks me to drop her & the kids off at the airport and when I pick them up in the morning she is running late and while I'm putting their luggage in the vehicle she mouths off something hurtful, innappropriate at me and finally set off a switch that was waiting to be activated for the longest amount of time.
Sometimes when you're in this situation and dealing with an obstinate spouse who has become so uncaring and hurtful towards you as part of the process of them separating from you and wanting to "test the waters" and become an individual who wants to spread their wings and see other people, etc. you reach your threshold of tolerance, your personal limit to how much someone will hurt you - even when that someone is the person you love more than anyone else. It happened on a day when I wouldn't see my kids physically for 2 weeks and although it doesn't sound like much, it's alot when you're an involved parent and the kids are still little.
Anyways something clicked in me that told me that you are allowing someone to walk all over you like a door mat and they are doing this because you allow them to do it.
I drove them to the airport, hugged & kissed my kids goodbye, told them to be good for their mother while on this trip and to listen to her, etc. I said bye to her and it's quite possible, the small fraction of someone who was once decent inside of her realized that going away with the kids and me not being there was something that made me sad and she realized that she was hurtful that morning and she mumbled out some sort of apology about how she was.
Driving home after they left made me realize that I wasn't ever going to change her by being this small, ineffectual person, this weak person who just let her & other walk over me, take advantage of me. You would think that by not saying anything, by absorbing insults and poor treatment that you show you are the better person but in reality it just shows that you are a nice guy on the outside and someone who is too weak on the inside to stand up for themselves and set boundaries & limits to how people will treat you.
I drove to my apartment and packed up my things and moved my things back to my house.
I took her things out of our master bedroom and put them in boxes.
I lived in my home for 2 weeks while my family was out of town. I looked at every detail in that home: the new flooring, lighting fixtures, plumbing fixtures, counter tops, doors, window coverings, painted walls/ceilings, baseboards, etc. My sweat equity had made that home comfortable to live in (and my apartment was a $hit hole, a concession I made because it was nearby).
I decided I would live in my home. I decided I would respect myself first before anyone else. I decided that I loved myself enough and respected myself enough to let go of people that wouldn't love & respect me. I decided that it was important to have rules & boundaries and when I let people traverse those boundaries, I was allowing people to hurt me and I wouldn't allow that anymore. I wouldn't live my life guarded and not allow anyone in, I just would respect myself to know the difference between someone having a bad day and someone being continuously mean to me.
When my wife & kids got back from their trip, I picked them up & drove them home (she was still unaware at this point of my decision to move back). I was really anticipating the reaction, I was looking forward to it, I could literally feel life swinging back to me in a positive way. She told me thanks for picking her & the kids up and for bringing the bags in but she wanted to rest after her flight and asked me to leave and I told her that there was a small problem with that because I had moved back in. To say she was angry was an understatement (an understatement of understatements), she threw the biggest temper tantrum I had ever experienced with her and you know what... it didn't matter to me. I realized the power of having respect for myself.
I asked her to move out, told her I wouldn't be a door mat anymore, told her I would pursue an official separation agreement (because during all that time being separated, she didn't care about seeing a lawyer, she thought we could exist like this until she wanted to see a lawyer and file officially), told her I would pursue joint custody of the children and I did and I got it, I proved I was just as good a parent (actually I had proven that I was a better parent and the courts saw this, commented accordingly and decided in the interests of the children, not in the interests of the parents separating).
Fast forward to today, I moved her out, packed her things, put them in her car and told her to live with her parents. I now live in my home, have joint custody of my children, my wife sees that I'm not some wimp to be taken advantage of, she respects me and knows that she can't get whatever she wants from me at my expense. She pursues me now (yes this is in the early stages), she talks about the relationship, she has actually told me she misses and loves me several times, we have been physically intimate several times and I'm still careful of her because she is quick to fall back to her old ways - the difference is that now she offers apologies for her behavior whereas before she wouldn't have cared a bit. After all that we've gone through, she needs to prove to me that she is trustworthy because right now I don't trust her and I don't have to unless she exhibits the kind of behavior that demonstrates she is trustworthy.
While long winded, the above is really just a fraction of the entire story which is filled with more crap and how horrible this separation was in the beginning but I wanted to illustrate that anyone can go from being a doormat to a human being that commands respect from the people they are with - it's just a matter of realizing that it's all within your control, how you live your life and what you allow in your life and remembering that how much you love & respect yourself determines your overall self-esteem and in the end determines how people will treat you and be around you. If you have a $hitty low paying job, find another one that is more enjoyable and pays better, if you're overweight, eat healthier, go to the gym, pump some iron and get into shape, read books, make personal development a life long pursuit and not just a temporary method of eating up time.
I think I have gone from behing the left behind spouse to being the walk away spouse, isn't it funny how life will turn out in the least expected ways!
As for my last weekend, it was a good one for me, I enjoyed it. It involved another temper tantrum from my wife, another apology, a few late night calls from the wife apologizing for her crap behavior (which she continues to perform unfortunately), a great time with my kids, some decent food, house cleaning and alot of laundry - LOL!
I hope you all had a good weekend too. ;-)
Rob,
I just finished reading this entire thread and just have to say wow... your story is truly inspirational. As you may guess, I'm a LBS who has been treated like a doormat. Of course I don't have any advice for you, but I will certainly be following you to see how things continue to progress for you. Hopefully I will be able to build up enough self-esteem to accomplish what you have. I'd certainly appreciate any advice or feedback on my sitch should you wander over to my story.
Keep up the great work, and keep on posting. You are helping many of us through your courage and determination.
It's been a month since my last post.
And.... I'm still separated.
But that's ok, life is good, I'm alive, happy, doing well, have my health and life really is good.
The arguments still continue, that seems to be a given but I'm the one that usually gets off before the end of the ride, if that's a good description.
I laughed at her the other day (and no not because I'm mean) but she started this huge torrent of texts, it was literally hard to keep up. Basically she was attacking the way I was acting lately because I didn't call her anymore, didn't text her first, didn't ask how she was, she told me all I do was focus on myself now and don't worry about her (hello?! - she left me, wasn't that what she wanted?). Basically one of these texts read...
"... you have a heart of steel and your nasty too"
I asked why she thought I was nasty (because apparently I'm confident and I'm being confident at her expense or something to that effect?). I told her it's possible she meant to say "heart of stone" and she texted back...
"great you're a god damn english professor too!"
If I was drinking anything while reading any of this, I would have shot liquid out of my nose.
I am not being mean when I laugh at some of these texts, I just don't take them personally anymore the way I used to, in the beginning, they all hurt quite a bit and I took them too personally. The mean side of her which still exists to a lesser degree used to really weigh me down, I know now that I can't control what she says or feels, I can just work on me and control how I feel - that was a big lesson for me to learn.
I had the kids for a longer stretch of time recently, scheduling with her part-time job shifts got messed up and I had them for a few days more than usual (fyi - we share custody). She came & picked them up late tuesday evening and I busted her on it a little bit, I had fed them supper already and seriously it was maybe 1 hour before their bedtime and I know she had gotten off work a few hours earlier. She hung out with her cousin after work and I told her to get her priorities straight: kids first.
Well she brought them home and I immediately got a call as soon as they got home:
"... the kids aren't listening to me, they don't respect me, they listen to you but they don't listen to me, I can't take it anymore, etc. etc. etc."
Take into account she has only just had them for less than an hour after not seeing them for several days.
She was angry at them and me, told me to come down & pick them up immediately. Starting ranting about how they are and she can't handle it. I told her I wouldn't pick the kids up, that I was actually going out for the evening and that she had them for the next little while and to make the best of it. Well she just exploded: yelling, swearing at me, life was too stressful (take into account that she only works part-time & she lives with her parents and they help her take care of the kids also) and then she yelled that she will sign over the kids and just visit them every other weekend.
I had just about enough at that point, I told her to stop talking and to be quiet, I told her that I wouldn't tolerate our perfect children not having both parents in their life on a regular basis and that she would have to suck it up and learn to be an adult, learn that being an adult means being responsible and not giving up when life gets difficult, learn that her priority if life was her family and to never forget that.
Well that phone call ended after a bit and I got ready to go out.
She then called me while I was getting ready, she demanded to know where I was going, if I was going out on a date (?), why I had to go out (?), again alot of nonsense. I basically confirmed to her that i'm an adult, I'm allowed to go out every now & then and that I didn't need her permission or approval to do anything. I told her that I take care of my life, my responsibilities and that I know when I can have a good time and that I'm in charge of my personal life. As for the accusation about me going on a date, I told her she was ridiculous. She picked up the kids at 6pm instead of 3pm that day, I had told her that if she waited any longer to pick them up that I would just keep them for the night and she could have picked them up the next day and now all of a sudden that I'm going out I was able to call someone out of the blue and plan a date in the time span of 30min. after she had picked up the kids - told her to get real and to give me more credit and that she was being a brat and that I didn't want to waste my time arguing with someone like that anymore.
Seriously this is a soap opera, more drama than I can possibly describe in this small text box that I'm typing in. More texts flew back & forth, I told her I wasn't the one that left me, that I wasn't the one who told me that she never loved me, didn't love me anymore. She told me she apologized for that and never really meant it, she just wanted the relationship that everyone else had and I told her that she could have had that & better if she had acted the way those successful couples were: caring, nurturing, loving, instead of moody, argumentative, angry, spiteful, commanding, demanding and always walking over me like a doormat.
She continued to text me into the night and she stopped after I told her that I wouldn't reply to these non-stop, non-sense texts anymore, she just kept going in circles and I was tired of the ride and was getting off. She told me goodnight and to drive safe.
I had a good night, I went out and shot some stick with a friend I hadn't seen since the company christmas party, called my cell out of the blue (I'm famous for never picking up my phone) and I happened to pick up, he's having some relationship problems too but when I mentioned our problems, he smiled because him & his wife weren't nearly at this level of problems, LOL!
( - thank god for small favors)
;-)
A long winded post from Rob once again,
I'm sure you didn't expect anything less!
How's everyone else doin'?
Robx, You are an inspiration to all LBH everywhere. Please don't take this the wrong way, but our little broken-heart community is so lucky to have you and your insights! It is horrible that it required a personal tragedy on your part to bring you here.
God bless you man.
"... you have a heart of steel and your nasty too"
I asked why she thought I was nasty (because apparently I'm confident and I'm being confident at her expense or something to that effect?). I told her it's possible she meant to say "heart of stone" and she texted back...
"great you're a god damn english professor too!"
If I was drinking anything while reading any of this, I would have shot liquid out of my nose.
I need to be careful because I have joked sometimes and come off as insensitive. I am truely touched by the pain that people here have and share it in my situation. However, you have jsut given me a special moment there and I will have a smile on my face for a very long time remembering that piece of humor!
thanks
Do you want her back Rob, or not so much anymore?
Hey Mike, it's been a while, it is good to hear from you - I've missed your replies.
Honestly Mike, I do want her back but I'm just not a fan of her behavior and I think I have to stand my ground sometimes just so that she knows that I have boundaries that can't be crossed. Name calling, yelling, fighting without reason, etc.
I also know that I don't want to go back to the relationship we had before - I know that wishing for that is wrong because it would ultimately lead us to the same path and same conclusion again.
I'm independant and can live my life without her and I can take care of my kids while working full-time and managing the household. I think I also need to show the kids that it's not ok to accept crap behavior from someone just because that's the way they are - people can be any way they want to be, if they want to be crusty, old & angry - they can be, if they want to be personable, loving, caring, affectionate & nurturing - they can be. It's a personal choice that people make, it's their choice how they want to live their lives.
I want my life to be a good one, in fact it's a requirement for a couple of reasons. First & forement, it needs to be a good life for me, really it does. And that good life can include her but it doesn't have to. I need to live a good life so that I can remain sane & happy. For the 2nd reason, I have to do it for my young children: they need to learn that you can live a good & happy life and that it's not normal for people to want to hurt you & be angry all the time. Being happy is one of the most important things in life.
I also don't want to supplicate her anymore. I won't buy things for her & do things for her just for her to be nice to me. If I have to buy her love then I don't want it. It seriously is a form of manipulation when you think about it, and I want the love in my life to be given freely.
I was seriously a broken person when this separation happened to me, she had treated me poorly for many years, I literally had jump through hoops of fire just to gets scrap of love every now & then thrown my way. It made her feel good to wield this kind of power over me and I didn't like who I was when this was happening to me in the relationship. I felt small, weak, unloved, had poor self-esteem, didn't take care of my needs and basically took all manners of crap from her and the excuse was I did it for her so that she would love me and never leave me and I know now that this never works. When you allow someone to treat you poorly for years, they have no respect for you and can't love you properly because you don't love yourself and don't respect yourself.
I'm a different person now, I do love myself and respect myself above all others. I realize now that my door mat behavior allowed this to happen to me and I won't live my life like that again, it was too painful. I also can't do this because I was teaching my kids indirectly that this is what married life is like, one spouse treats the other badly and you get walked all over and disrespected. I seriously tear up thinking that this could happen to my kids and my kids need to know that loving & respecting themselves above all others is the only way they will find a partner in life who will do the same for them.
So to answer your question Mike, I do love her. I want her back. But I won't go back to the old "US". I can't ever go back to that. I won't go back to being barked at, the silent treatments, being a sex camel (everybody loves raymond, love that show, a sex camel can go weeks/months without sex), the constant arguing, finger pointing, you didn't do this, this & that (seriously I did everything and then some, it was never enough to work full-time, come home, clean home, do laundry, bathe kids, do homework w/them, make meals, take care of finances while she complained of working a part-time job and never having enough time for herself). I won't go back to her always being about herself, never asking about me, never seeing how I am, never asking about work, never talking to me like a friend, asking me if I need anything, want anything, never a funny joke, never an interesting story to share - she gives that energy to everyone else except for me and that is seriously boring & harmful at the same time.
I just won't tolerate that kind of crap anymore in my life, and she is slowly learning that.
Whether or not that brings her back to me is irrelevant. If she can't be a friend - heck I'll shoot for goals, how about my best friend, if she can't be loving, caring & nurturing towards me, what kind of relationship could i hope to have with her?
Yes I want her back but maybe at the same time I can be picky, I can say what I want in a relationship because i know what I'm capable of putting into it and what I want is someone to do the same and be respectful of that fact that a great marriage is made by great people who put great things into the marriage.
I'm not ignorant that arguments won't happen, they just won't be the rule anymore, they would be the exception.
Is anyone else seeing this finally during their separation from their spouses? You shouldn't be wanting things to go back to how they were. How they were is what you led you to this point in your life right now.
I want better, I'll get better because I am better. It's the new standard to live by, it's how to get the things you want in life because the only one holding you back is you.
AMEN! AMEN!!! Brotha. Anyone that wants any hope of saving their relationship (Notice I didn't say marriage). Study this post.
Great job Rob! Hopefully she smartens up before it's too late for u.
B
Thanks bro, I appreciate the great feedback.
I think people need to realize that when people say things to you like, "I don't love you anymore" or "I'm not in love with you anymore", or anything else that's remotely close, consider this, they've lost respect for you, they've lost attraction for you, probably due to some poor behaviors on your part, not just on theirs. Acting like a doormat is really crap behavior, I did that - not her and acting like a doormat ends up getting you as much love as a doormat deserves, which is none. I stopped acting like a doormat, I set rules & boundaries, I man up, act like I have a pair and you know what, it's not acting, I do have a pair, I have reclaimed those shriveled raisins that I call balls out of her purse and they've regained their normal size once again - thank god!
Respect yourself, love yourself, find those things that make you an individual again, make you feel good about yourself again and remember that you aren't allowed to lose those things regardless of how much you love your partners. Don't ever settle for being someone's doormat because after you've been walk on for a while and they've rubbed their dirty shoes all over you, they will get rid of you, doormats that look old & dirty get replaced with newer doormats.
Goal: Stop being a human doormat
How to achieve this goal: love & respect yourself enough to tell people that you don't like it when they treat you like crap. We teach young kids to say NO when someone does something inappropriate to them - there's a message there. Learn to say NO to crap behavior, you don't have to be a bully, you don't have to be mean but you do have to say something and stand up for yourself. Doing so shows people that you respect yourself enough to not tolerate crap behavior.
Another thing that I've been thinking about alot lately.
Alot of LBS's here on this site and possibly, just possibly being way too supplicative (if that's a word) or supplicating too much. Meaning always giving in, never showing backbone, buying things, gifts, meals, etc. This type of behavior backfires badly, you show you have no backbone, you show that you have nothing to live for, you show that you believe that buying a person with money, gifts or doing things for them is the way to get them back and that is really manipulation and nobody likes that or respects that.
Trying to be the best you can be to win back the spouse that has left you. Now hear me out before you shoot me down (feel free to shoot though, I would encourage honest debate on this).
Even though you can tell most people they have to do this for themselves first & foremost, the reality is that people especially in the early stages are desperate to get their spouses back, so the changes they make are superficial and do not last. If they do hook up with their spouse again, they'll maintain these "new" behaviors for a limited period of time, get comfortable again and the WAS will leave after they see the changes weren't real.
Respect yourselves first & foremost, the person who was supposed to love you above all others has walked away and left you behind and unless you were some type of abusive slob, that kind of betrayal shouldn't be taken lightly.
Respect yourself, reclaim your dignity & self-esteem.
You pick things up pretty quick man. Good to see. Nothing for me to add here in fact.
"....That old me's dead and gone but the new me will be alright"
Mike I miss your replies,
c'mon man, I'm sure you have plenty to teach me still.
Well another update.
I packed up my wife's remaining things and put them in boxes by the door at our home.
I moved her out in January.
We go back & forth between being almost friends and being enemies.
Throughout this time I haven't faltered at all in being a strong man. I don't grovel for her affection, in fact when she displays a poor attitude with me and we happen to be out together with the kids, I call her on it, I "bust" her on it. I tell her that I won't tolerate crap behavior from her ever, not in private and definitely not in public.
One of the days that I had the kids, she asked if she could tag along with us because she had nothing to do that day. She came along, we shopped, we had something to eat, etc. Something the kids did to annoy her and she made a statement to the effect that "the kids don't listen to me the way they listen to you", I started to tell her that it's possible she didn't pay enough attention to them when she has them (she doesn't, the kids tell me so, obviously they're little and don't know much but they do tell me what bothers them), well that attitude turned from crusty to worse and she made a really hurtful remark to me, turned her back and walked away. The old me would have just taken crap from her and slumped into a corner and in general just acted really submissive. Here's my 180 (yes a few of you aren't going to agree), she walked away from, I followed her, told her to turn around because I was talking and if she wanted me to listen to her & respect her when we're talking, she would damn well do the same with me and that I won't tolerate anyone ever turning their back on me ever again and included her at the top of the list. I then told the kids that we were leaving and that mom had something to do and we left. She was speechless, I let her say goodbye to the kids (they were with me on that day) and we left, I just turned my back and wouldn't hear more of it.
Sounds a bit tough, maybe hard but the old me wouldn't have done that. She sent several text msg's later that evening that were angry, hostile, infused with colorful language and i told her that she was wasting her time texting me.
A few days later she apologized for talking to me that way.
If I didn't know better, standing up for myself to someone who used to be controlling, mean & cruel with me is actually buying me some brownie points.
The apologies this year are something new, something that would have never happened before.
as for the packing her remaining things last month and having her pick up her stuff.... again she got extremely angry, used colorful language, etc.
A couple weeks later, she starts acting nice to me again.
She asked me out for coffee last week, she had her parents watch the kids in the evening.
This week SHE bought me supper.
I'm not mean or angry with her ever, but I do "bust" her on her crap behavior and I don't show signs of weakness when she gets angry with me.
Something to think about.
I've been posting alot in other user's threads and offering advice, here's an update on my situation and I'm asking for input/comments/advice.
Today she mentioned something about possibly wanting to move back home & try again.
I haven't talked any relationship talk with her in ages, in fact I've been getting used to my current life. Truth be told, getting my own life & living my own life and taking care of just myself and the kids has been detaching & getting a life without calling it that.
What should I be asking her? What should I be telling her?
I didn't say anything when she mentioned, I played dumb, brushed it off, kind of like "ha ha very funny" and continued with another conversation we had started earlier. In fact I did this on autopilot which probably made me look like I wasn't acting when I laughed it off, it only registered after she left to go to work (she had come over to visit me & the kids). Now that I think of it, she has mentioned this in half whispers in other conversations (ex. "this place could use a woman's touch, maybe one of these days I'll move back home and help you run this zoo")
I'm almost wondering now if she's serious.
What's standard protocol in this situation where the WAW may be asking to come back to the LBS who kind of became the WAS during this process. Is she testing me? Is that possible? (I guess I answered that myself, anything is possible).
Thoughts, comments, suggestions?!
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
LOL!
I'm serious, I would love some input on this.
Thanks in advance.... rob ;-)
p.s. out of the blue yesterday, she called me at work and asked me out for dinner, she took me to red lobster and she picked up the cheque (which is very rare, in the past she would never have done this)
Rob, I think you need to be prepared with what your short list of "dealbreakers" are.
What ARE they?
This is your chance to start to build an entirely new relationship, a "do-over" using what you've learned while apart. Upon what kind of foundation and boundaries would you like to build it? DO you even want to build it?
Puppy
Rob, I think you need to be prepared with what your short list of "dealbreakers" are.
What ARE they?
This is your chance to start to build an entirely new relationship, a "do-over" using what you've learned while apart. Upon what kind of foundation and boundaries would you like to build it? DO you even want to build it?
Puppy
Puppy thanks for the reply,
I read your post and I seriously don't know,
I never thought about it this far in advance.
Does it sound ignorant of me to say that I'm kind of dumbfounded at this point?
No, I think it's to be expected. When my wife came to ME two years ago this August, after 3 months of hell-bent steadfast refusal to end her affair, and begged me to take her back, tearful and remorseful . . . I was NOWHERE near prepared emotionally or intellectually for that.
We work so hard at DEtachment, that I don't think we let our heads and hearts think about "RE-tachment" sometimes, LOL.
Are you still in love with her?
I still love her and I'm still physically attracted to her and if you've read bits & pieces of this thread in the past, we have been sexually active with each other these past few months.
However there are days when I don't want anything to do with her, that is detachment at work. Being apart for so long it's easy to put the brakes on and say "begone with you & your behavior, I want none of it!" (I don't actually talk like that but if I was a king, I probably would sound like that LOL!)
Does it sound ignorant of me to say that I'm kind of dumbfounded at this point?
Kind of like the dog that finally catches a squirrel.
You need to be prepared to have a dialouge on what needs to be resolved on both sides. How you are going to communicate better in the future. How you will monitor progress. What behavior that has been unhealthy needs to changed. Describe to each other what this new, better, stronger, wiser and healthier M will look like. Plus all the logistical issues. Be prepared for setbacks, misunderstandings, and some repeat behavior. All that you learned will still be valid in piecing. You can handle it.
Cheers
I don't have physical proof of an affair on her part but there are too many signs/signals to dismiss that it didn't happen.
I've brought it up with her and she denies it - and apparently that's standard behavior (deny, deny and deny some more).
I don't bust her hard on it but I told her that I need her to be honest with me. I won't label her as a cheater and I can forgive her but she has to come clean with me on this. I told her it doesn't define her as a person, I can understand that it was a bad decision on her part and people do make bad decisions.
Everytime I bring this up, she denies it.
(I don't make it a point to bring it up every 5min. of every day but sometimes a conversation will go into a specific direction that opens up to this type of question).
Here's the catch, a day or two later after I bring this topic up, she does something nice for me. It's almost like a guilty reaction, I'm almost tempted to start logging the reactions based on my inquiries into this - it's damn near scientific at this point. Do this, observe this reaction, Repeat.
And yes, I can love her despite the fact that she may have had an emotional or physical affair with another man.
But I need honesty in my life, no more lies, no more bull$hit, no more second guessing, no more assumptions that everything is ok when it isn't.
When you spend enough time separated, doing research on this DB'ing, testing techniques, speaking to people, learning so much about human psychology, etc, You become aware of an entirely new world that you were previously naive about.
You become aware of an entirely new world that you were previously naive about.
That door swings both ways. Love, compassion, forgiveness, faith, hope, empathy, truth, honesty, humbleness and devotion are also very eye-opening. Don't sell yourself or your W short. You are capable of amazing things.
Cheers
Thanks Coach,
going through this process has pretty much proven to me that I'm capable of amazing things, in fact I'm pretty sure I have more untapped potential waiting to be discovered & realized.
I don't have physical proof of an affair on her part but there are too many signs/signals to dismiss that it didn't happen.
I've brought it up with her and she denies it - and apparently that's standard behavior (deny, deny and deny some more).
I don't bust her hard on it but I told her that I need her to be honest with me. I won't label her as a cheater and I can forgive her but she has to come clean with me on this. I told her it doesn't define her as a person, I can understand that it was a bad decision on her part and people do make bad decisions.
Everytime I bring this up, she denies it.
(I don't make it a point to bring it up every 5min. of every day but sometimes a conversation will go into a specific direction that opens up to this type of question).
Here's the catch, a day or two later after I bring this topic up, she does something nice for me. It's almost like a guilty reaction, I'm almost tempted to start logging the reactions based on my inquiries into this - it's damn near scientific at this point. Do this, observe this reaction, Repeat.
Anyone else observe this from spouse that denies an affair (Physical or Emotional), a guilty reaction to the question asking them whether or not they did have an affair when that spouse is making an attempt come back and work on the relationship?
another update, haven't been on the site for quite some time.
My wife asked me out, she wants to go on a real date with me next week. I told her I had a place already in mind, funny thing was we both named the same restaurant at the same time, somewhere we both haven't been yet - that was kind of a funny moment, both smiled a bit because of it.
Things are going good, I'm not reading more into it than just a date but she does bring up the relationship talk more & more.
As for the date, I will just relax & have fun.
Things are doing well at my end,
work is super busy, kids are both in soccer so a few evenings each week are already spoken for, the weekends are always busy: always stuff to do with the kids and my wife has been asking if she can participate more when they're with me and I agree, the kids enjoy it when we do things as a family and my wife has been keeping her temper tantrums to a minimum lately so I don't mind her company either. Plus when she's over, she helps me out at home a bit by doing stuff with me as I don't need her to do it for me, I'm perfectly capable as is and don't need a servant (ie. helping me with folding & putting away laundry, cleaning the kid's rooms, making supper, etc.)
Nothing more to say than it's been good & fun lately with her, not too much drama and she sure calls & texts alot more lately as well.
I haven't brought up her PA or EA, that's not to say that I won't because I do want honesty in this area. If something happened and I believe it did, I want her to own up to it. I won't brand her as a cheater for life, I won't label her as someone bad but like I said, honesty is important with me as well as communication & being open.
I hope everyone out there is doing well, keep your chin up, focus on improving yourself and having a great life, whichever way things go in your life, they will happen in a positive way if you are living a positive, happy life and take care of yourself.
I know this was posted awhile ago...but YES! I am feeling this too:
"Is anyone else seeing this finally during their separation from their spouses? You shouldn't be wanting things to go back to how they were. How they were is what you led you to this point in your life right now."
IT feels good to finally feel this way.
P.S. I am spending WAY too much time following robx's story...it is like a good book...i can't put it down!
ok...I am up to date on your sitch! I am so happy for you and I can relate to your feelings as many here can. You are REALLY inspirational. What a good person and daddy you are! I can't help but think that you are feeling the way I am starting to...that if this terrible sitch did NOT happen in your life, that you would not be better off. That you are truly finding the person you have wanted to be all along. I feel compelled to give my H credit for that, but not quite yet! I am happy for you that you are doing better with your W. It is inspiring to read and it has given me patience to read your thread...what a long road. Patience is so important. Suffice it to say that time flies when you are having fun...so having fun is a goal of mine...everyday. The ride may just seem shorter that way.
I would love to hear an update on the date...take care
I hope everyone out there is doing well, keep your chin up, focus on improving yourself and having a great life, whichever way things go in your life, they will happen in a positive way if you are living a positive, happy life and take care of yourself.
I hope so, man!
"Is anyone else seeing this finally during their separation from their spouses? You shouldn't be wanting things to go back to how they were. How they were is what you led you to this point in your life right now."
I think most of us feel this way. We don't want the old marriage...it was bad. We want a new marriage, built on a new foundation, one with compassion, respect, and value...we just want it to be with our spouse's!
Truth be told, I was waiting for the "old" version of my wife to come back.
This last weekend was a stressful one for both of us. She had a big fight with her parents & brother and was stressed out with all the work we were involved in with getting ready this weekend.
Our daughter's 1st communion happened this past weekend, there was lot's of work involved with inviting relatives to the church and organizing a family dinner, buying "thank you" gifts, writing cards, getting photo & video taken care of, getting our daughter's dress,veil,gloves & shoes ready, getting her hair done in the early morning before going to church on sunday (yes it's a big production, italian, roman catholic church, my little girl looked like she was getting married by the way she was dressed LOL!)
Anyways my wife was acting rudely throughout the entire weekend, making crap comments, off the cuff remarks, just getting her digs in whenever she could. I made a point of reminding her that she can talk like that to other people but when it comes to me she can keep her brat behavior to herself.
She slowed down a bit, even apologized and then started up again at church, slowed down a bit again, remained civil & friendly during the family dinner afterwards but blew up again when we came home. I had the kids so she came over to help get them undressed from their formal wear and tuck them into bed.
She started acting rude again afterwards and started saying some hurtful things. During the dinner she said something hurtful towards her own father as well, everyone at the table got a bit silent when she did so and she realized she was speaking out loud in public. (Her dad is older, has a heart condition, a built-in pacemaker w/defribulator built-in). She yelled at him while he was putting a plate together to get wrapped up for take out after the dinner was over. After everyone got quiet and all eyes were on her, she apologized to him, got a bit misty and then we all started conversing again just to change the subject and move on.
The thing is I think she is pretty much oblivious to the world when she has temper tantrums & mood swings.
Without going into too many details, she started an argument after we put the kids to bed, it included yelling and choice language. I told her I wouldn't reward her crap behavior with my attention and told her to leave: she wasn't welcome in my house while acting like a brat.
It's too bad, she had been acting much better lately, improved behavior, being kinder, initiating going out, taking me out to dinner, going out for coffee, going shopping together, spending more time with me & the kids, asking to come over more often and spend time with me, making a point of saying that she wants to spend more time with me, that she would arrange to have her parents watch the kids in the evening, etc.
It's very possible that part of this problem is mine, I keep waiting for her to act poorly like this and it looks like maybe I manifest this into reality by thinking it's going to happen.
I remain guarded with her alot of the time, I keep waiting for the "old" version of her to creep back into my life.
I'm not sad though.
I told her and I will continue to let her know that I don't want anyone in my life that doesn't respect me & my well being anytime she is rude with me. She can act this way with someone else.
Being the LBS that transforms into the WAS, you see that the problems in your relationship aren't all your fault. The other person has to take responsibility for their actions and you don't have to put up with crap behavior - when you put up with crap behavior you allow them to push past boundaries and disrespect you and this leads to more & more of the same and being a door mat is never fun. Sometimes it feels like she is challenging me, trying to see what my response will be, if I'm going to be afraid of her or stand up to her. It really feels like that sometimes and I'm trying to find out if this is a conscious thing she's doing or if this something she is doing on a subconscious level: I feel like I'm being tested all the time, it's a weird feeling when you're aware of what's going on, you literally sit back and feel the test in progress and it takes you sometime to adjust to it and gauge your responses because of it. For many years she was (still is I guess) a mean & angry person that was used to running over me and treating me poorly, I wonder if this is her testing me to see if I'm going to crumble & break down. Anyone else ever get this feeling while dealing with their spouse?
Regardless of what she does, I'm doing great always and will continue to do so, make sure you all have that attitude as well, it certainly helps with times like these.
YES, I get the "being tested feelings"!
In every instance with past R's and current ones I've had the testing. The most recent one I've been failing miserably.
It seems that what I Db'd successfully for a period with XW, and even made it to piecing, has somehow been forgotten with current GF. It took a bit to realize this and I'm trying to start over.
Weird that knowing better doesn't always make us do the right things. Because of the testing I let emotions dictate reactions from me not realizing I was being tested.
It may be to late, I hope not, but I'm not going to fall into the same old sh.. anymore.
Good job with standing firm with boundaries it will get you through these tests and trials.
cire
Hey Rob... you don't know me, so let me introduce myself first. I am Ian and I have been on the boards since 10/06. There... I am now qualified
You have the typical problem of most newbies. You seem to overthink things to death instead of just letting go and accepting. My biggest mistake I made in my first 6 months was overanalyzing every interaction, every mood swing, and every feeling that I had. My advice, figure out how to stop doing this to yourself. Let go, accept where you are today and simply be yourself. Work on you and your life. Look at what you did wrong in the marriage and try to figure out how to improve on it. Take this time as a gift, a gift in that you now have some time to "fix" you so that you will be a better husband either for your wife, or future relationships.
Ian
Very good information taken from Robx's original post. Helps me everyday. Hope it helps some of you.
Needed to read this today for a little motivation. Bumping it while I'm here
So what happened next in robx's story???
Hi Piano,
Well I believe they are back together...but I'm not for sure if there is a post for it. He has a lot of posts. lol
Bumping for Bustorama.
Wish this could be "stickied" at the top of the forum...
Just read your first post.......WHAT THE FREAK HAPPENED TO YOU??????
You sounded so nice.....lost but nice...now all you sound like is a Jack A**
But he SMELLS so nice, and has really sharp shoes.
Starsky
Rob found what worked for him AND what works for others, not all, but others as well.
And he is willing to help others.
He is direct and sarastic at times, and doesn't like it when people are not doing their best.
But he is not a Jack A**.
A Prikc? self admitted, but only when deserved.
Rob is a sheepdog.
On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997
One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:
"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.
Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.
I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.
"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.
"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."
If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed
Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.
But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.
The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.
Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."
Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.
The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.
Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?
Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.
Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.
Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.
Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.
There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke
Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.
If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.
For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.
I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"
Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.
Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"
It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.
Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.
Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."
Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.
And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
"Baa."
This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.
I can her his head swell from here Star.
Sheepdogs always have big heads, Jack. It's only important whether or not they are good at protecting the sheep.
Just read your first post.......WHAT THE FREAK HAPPENED TO YOU??????
You sounded so nice.....lost but nice...now all you sound like is a Jack A**
This thread got lost in my must read list.
You should check your boundaries. I call your statement a CB.
I wish your M/R is doing well.
...Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.
I would never consider myself in the same league as Todd Beamer, that guy along with the people that joined him in that incredible situation made the ultimate sacrifice, I haven't done anything nearly as heroic.
It's a decent post though, I never looked at things this way before, a lot of what is described in it does resonate with me, I'm not sure if the choice made, to be one or the other (sheep or sheepdog), was a conscious one on my part but it does "fit" me, if that makes sense.
The last few words were very true for me,
"... at your moment of truth",
I think I've described it as reaching your own "personal threshold", that imaginary line within you, the one where you finally cross it and it tips the scales in such a way that finally recognize and weigh your personal value, where you realize you are worth more/better than whatever your situation is, the day when someone finally wakes up from their self imposed slumber, when their eyes finally open to reality without being clouded by feelings, desires, hopes, dreams, etc. And it's not that those things are bad, they're essential to being human but you can't let those things distort whatever the current reality of your respective situation is.
thanks bro, that's 2 posts today that really made my day by reading them - I appreciate it.
I wish your M/R is doing well.
Pretty rude around here if that is said snidely.
Just read your first post.......WHAT THE FREAK HAPPENED TO YOU??????
You sounded so nice.....lost but nice...now all you sound like is a Jack A**
Nice!
sounds like I have a new fan ;-)
(that was sarcasm if you didn't catch that)
Let me ask a question,
Have I commented on your specific personal situation,
not some generic thread covering many situations,
but your situation specifically and just blabbed out loud,
"ILMN, your husband is a Jack A$$!"Have I done something to you that you consider much worse than what your husband has done?
Have you spoken to him this way?
I have not called you any names,
why would I?
I don't know you personally,
why would I want to insult you or attempt to insult you?
For what gain?
What purpose?
What benefit is achieved in me insulting you personally?
None.
So what do you gain by attempting to insult me?
Nothing.
It certainly doesn't help your situation.
I suggest (and remember this is just advice, you have free will and you are free to do as you please) you focus on your situation instead of losing focus and trolling other threads and insulting people.
I can her his head swell from here Star.
Hey!
- that happens only when I get excited!!!
;-)
I wish your M/R is doing well.
Pretty rude around here if that is said snidely.
I don't need to stand up for any vet here. They have alligator skins.
But I have not yet read such a short offencive attack on personality yet.
So yes, I wish that the person who said it can have a fruitful and happy relationship with all people in his/her life.
With a mouth like that it would be challenging.
Ever realize that caps magnify the message?
But you did Pookie.
I also said 'if'.
So 'if' THAT (yes I have realized that)was the case, you pointing out or being opposed to rude behavior is OK, but it is not OK if I do?
But you did Pookie.
I also said 'if'.
So 'if' THAT (yes I have realized that)was the case, you pointing out or being opposed to rude behavior is OK, but it is not OK if I do?
You weren't wrong about "if". It was snide.
I will now withdraw myself back to my ranks so you can find somebody else who has been snide.
There will not be a third collision with you.
Honestly an awesome read. Great to see the transformation, it's textbook.
I wish your M/R is doing well.
Pretty rude around here if that is said snidely.
hey ref how about making a call a call on the jack ass comment.
buckle your chin straps boys, looks like we got some home cookin going on.
I wish your M/R is doing well.
Pretty rude around here if that is said snidely.
hey ref how about making a call a call on the jack ass comment.
buckle your chin straps boys, looks like we got some home cookin going on.
My people call it humor.
I wish your M/R is doing well.
Pretty rude around here if that is said snidely.
hey ref how about making a call a call on the jack ass comment.
buckle your chin straps boys, looks like we got some home cookin going on.
My people call it humor.
Touche
Pretty sure I did address it, but you'd have to read the whole thread.
As for the ref thing.
I'll risk popularity, to point out that being sarcastic about someone's marriage, especially here in DB is pretty much the lowest blow possible.
First of all I want to apologize to Robx for saying you are a Jack A**..you are right,I dont even know you...secondly to all of the people I offended here by saying that,I was full of emotions from being served div.papers I guess I got caught up in the moment.
I had to do some serious praying about this,this is NOT how a woman of faith should of acted or spoken to anyone.
I am very sorry to you all..this should teach me to think before I post anything in the future.
I have been doing this for a very long time and the papers were a huge disappointment because I am sure their marriage should be next.I feel like the wind has been knocked out of me.
Again.I should not of done that, I was and am crushed...
Please accept my apologies......Irma
Oh Irma, I am so sorry to hear you are having a rough time. Here is a big hug, (((((Irma))))))
ILMN,
I read your post and just want to let you know that I'm sorry you're going through such a tough time - it will get better eventually. No worries on the previous post & comment, I've heard worse (believe me) and I had a hunch that maybe it was a response based on something else going on at your end.
Take the recent events that have happened in your situation as a signal to take some time to focus on yourself, stop worrying about what your H is doing, it's his loss regardless if he's oblivious to this fact. Take care of yourself.
The last few words were very true for me,
"... at your moment of truth",
I think I've described it as reaching your own "personal threshold", that imaginary line within you, the one where you finally cross it and it tips the scales in such a way that finally recognize and weigh your personal value, where you realize you are worth more/better than whatever your situation is, the day when someone finally wakes up from their self imposed slumber, when their eyes finally open to reality without being clouded by feelings, desires, hopes, dreams, etc. And it's not that those things are bad, they're essential to being human but you can't let those things distort whatever the current reality of your respective situation is.
This is kind of how my WAW described the day when she snapped and blew-up on me. She says she tried to make things work after that, but I think she was already done. Then I did the heavy pursuit thing and drove her off completely. Things can never be the same again.
Please start a new thread, this one has become large.
Thanks,
sg
For such a long time I allowed her to beat me up verbally, mentally & emotionally. I worked full-time, took care of the finances, did the lion's share of the household chores (cleaning, cooking, laundry, etc.) and when I would discuss this with her she would tear into me and tell me it didn't matter that I did everything. I have learned one universal truth, you cannot argue with women: they are too good at it and they usually win because men just aren't good at it. You end up feeling stupid (or at least I did every time) and in the end whatever logic you had to start the discussion was turned around and I wondered what the heck happened? If she spent every dime we had and I brought it up, it got turned around that I was poor at managing the finances. I even offered for her to take care of the finances and I wouldn't spend 1 red cent for a few months just to show that I wasn't the cause of our debt but she would never help with that, she couldn't care less.
Another problem is that she had low self-esteem and because I had very low self-esteem myself, the power struggle we had kept her on top. Bullies pick on weaker people when they're allowed because it pumps up their self-esteem to bully people with lower self-esteem - it allows them to get away with crap that normal people would never tolerate.
that was me. every word of it.
I won't tolerate being walked all over ever again, be it with her or any one else in the future. I'm not going to walk around guarded and be the kind of person to attack first either but I'm going to establish boundaries and make sure they are respected and above all make sure that I love myself and respect myself and keep my self-esteem high. That is something any spouse in a troubled marriage should be doing. Don't ever grovel, beg or plead with your spouse when someone decides to end the marriage. You may not have been a perfect spouse but ever relationship has a dual responsibility: there are two of you, always remember that.
i had one of those moments recently where i had enough. my words were "i'm tired of being pushed around".
I have also stopped bringing up the past, it's worthless to debate who did what in the past - that time is over, all you have is the present and you are in control of how you spend that time. My wife now talks about the past alot, possibly in attempts to show what I've done bad and why she acted the way she did.
this is important to move forward - m or no m.
robx - i'm not finished reading your thread yet. but i will later on. i found this board and your thread too late - by the time i found the boards, we had already sold our home. but you really show 'em how it's done.
robx, did you and your w have a sep agrmt in place during that time? were you out of the house for a year before you moved back in?