New questions - DivorceBusting.com

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I want to make sure that new readers feel comfortable joining in. So I thought I'd open a new thread for newcomers to the book club.
Michele

Hi Michele,
I would like to let you know that I�m still reading your new book �Divorce remedy� I will read chapter 6 today (step number 5 Experiment and Monitor Results).

The example that you give at the end of chapter 5 regarding Garth with his wife fits me very well during my wife�s affair. The thought of losing my wife made me pursue her more and more. Despite she said to me that she didn�t want to receive anything from me any more related to love, I still continued to buy her card, flowers and gift for her birthday, our anniversary, valentine�s day or for no reason at all. I finally realized that it didn�t work that way and besides she returned the valentine card that I gave to her last February unopened. I have not given my wife anything related to love since. I mean no card, no flowers, no gift, no compliment.

The question I have is what should I do about it. I have tried to ask her what I want but got a response of �Leave me alone and give me time to heal. I will let you know when I am ready�. It has been 9 months since the affair was over and (I think) there hasn�t been any contact since then (she quitted her job 9 months ago because the other man works there too). But my wife still refused to work on our marriage. We still sleep in a separated bedroom (it has been for 11 years and I don�t think I will ever have a chance to sleep next to my wife again �through the night� even after there is a conciliation). That�s my long tern goal anyway. People take for granted about sleeping in the same bed with loved one, but I�m longing for that for 11 years now.

We are living like a roommate now (her call). She doesn�t want to be touched, hugged, or kissed and I have honored that request so far (it has been since I found out about her affair 19 months ago). I don�t know how to make her get off the fence and work on the marriage other than keeping waiting for her to heal or whatever that meant. I think she has already set herself into this complacency situation of just being here with me. She wants to stay marriage for just the name for the kids� sake, her parents� sake or for saving her face. She still wants to have the family intact and we stay together as a father and a mother to the kids, but not as a husband and a wife.

That�s my dilemma right now.

By the way I have already read the chapter on infidelity and I don�t see anything there to help with my situation. I also read your DB book.

Thank you very much for spending your time reading this.

LAN

Lan,
It's good that you are reading step 5 because that's exactly what you need to be doing. Besides chasing her with cards and flowers and so on, and backing off completely, what else have you tried? see if you get some additional ideas in that chapter.
Michele

Thank you Michele for your response and spending your valuable time reading my post. It means a lot to me.

Well, I did do some 180�s for several months but it didn�t seem to make any differences. Ever since we married, I have never gone out to a club or stayed late at night at my friends� house or something in that nature. But during her affair, I did go out or disappear for couple nights a week and come home later than usual. I took dancing lessons and stayed late after the class to practice. My wife knew that there were lots of single women taking the lesson too. It was a free lesson once a week. My wife didn�t seem to care or maybe in her mind at that time, she had already given up both our marriage and me.

For 12 years out of 15 years of marriage, I used to do the cooking, the cleaning and the grocery shopping. I stopped doing it as part of my 180�s.

Until now I still don�t know whether her affair died a nature dead or she was so shameful or couldn�t bear to see the kids go through this whole mess that she created. She ended her physical affair 4 months after I found out, but continued her emotional affair for 6 more months until she quitted her job. Part of the reasons was because of the other man, but I still don�t know �exactly� why she still refused to work on our marriage. Whenever I raised the OR talk (which I have not done that for sometimes now), she kept telling me that she felt so dirty and unworthy to me. She also said that how could she have sex with me again since she has given her body (having sex) to the other man already. She regards sex as the most important part of being marriage. In her mind, it was a turning point of no return when she decided to have sex with the other man. She also thought that after having sex with the other man I wouldn�t want to have her back and besides she went ahead and had sex with him to just get back at me for telling her parents about her affair. Before I told her parents, she said that it was just kissing and hugging or being naked together in bed but no sex. That�s where my wife is in term of intimacy.

She is happy with everything else right now including the current arrangement of just being a roommate. She is a stay-at-home-mom for now and is in a process of looking for a new job. We are still doing family activities together and she seems to want to talk to me more than before in term of kids, household chore, home improvement, vacation, etc�except the OR talk. That�s where I�m right now in term of our daily life. As a matter of fact, we have been going places as family more than before since summer began and we have also been doing the biking and the walking in the park as a family almost everyday if the weather is good. Do you think that�s the good sign? But then where do I go from here to be in intimacy with my wife again? That's my goal.

LAN

[This message has been edited by LonelyAtNight (edited 09-18-2001).]

Michelle:

I do have a couple questions regarding goals and Last Resort techiques. H and I have been separated for 6 months w/the "I think we should get divorced" coming from him a month ago. I've been in a 180 for almost a year (problems w/marriage happening over 3yrs when I was a WAW) but came back.
I've stopped the chase, and have continued w/my life (work, going out w/friends) and have recently become less accessible- don't answer the phone, not home when he drops off our dog.
When you say, be loving (pg 130- Step 5) I don't want to tread on his toes, but I also want him to know that I appreciate some of the things he has been doing. How "cool" is staying cool here. I don't want to blow him off either if he could be trying to get closer. Any thoughts?
LJ

Thanks Michele,
I've got my copy of Divorce Remedy and have been reading it and pencilling in notes and highlighting things that stand out for me.
I'm just not sure where to start - which step - as my husband has been gone for two years now. I've read up to Chapter 5 - Step Four.
He's been very friendly lately and has offered to help with a couple of things that need fixing around the house.
Where do I go from here? just keep reading? I can't ask him for anything because he's not interested in working on reconcilation. He wants us to be friends and good parents.
He tends to keep me off balanced and confused.

I guess I'd better keep reading because obviously I've been going down the same tunnels and still getting the same results.
On to Chapter 5.
Again many thanks for this site Michele. Let's hope we can bust my pending Divorce.
Thanks
Donna
PS I haven't filed yet, and I won't not til I lose all hope. Now if HE files that's a different story.

Michele,

I won't trouble you with too much of the my story except to say I have been on the board for over a year, my H is a MLCer and has been living with his OW now for about 18 months. I have read both your books.

My H. has recently reconnected with his teenage children, one better than the other. He was absent from our lives completely for the better part of one year. He is making baby steps in my direction. He phones about something specific than will talk generally about himself and his work. He includes me in meals out with the children, and has even taken me out on my own for lunch once.

My problem is this. I have great trouble in identifying 'doing what works'. The events of the last 18 months have shaken my confidence profoundly and I hesitate trying something new in case it is the wrong thing and I go backwards instead of forwards.

Also I seem to have a total inability to see what I am doing right now which has caused him to be more open and friendly towards me. I just can't identify it. It is almost as if I need a check list of things to try. And another check list of things of things I am might be doing right now.

Any ideas how I can overcome my problem?

Many thanks.

Credo,
Boy can I identify with your question. I too, am having a hard time identifying what I'm doing right and what to do next.
I am at the point of giving up and filing just to get out of this living hell.
Hang in there
Penny

I too have been reading both DB and Divorce Remedy. My H has made baby steps but then he goes dark for awhile. We have been separated for 7 months. Sometimes he connects with my kids, age 9 and 11 and sometimes he will go a week or more without much contact. He is definitely in the no responsibility mode. He helps out financially but little else - no offers to do anything around the house or help the kids with school work etc.

I think he may be involved in internet chats and looking for a soulmate online. He found one about a year ago and that is why we separated (his decision). It was a PA too even though she lives in another state and is married with children. I don't know if he is still seeing her or not. But he is traveling to other cities too (not even OW's state in the last few months) and his cell phone bill (which I receive because my phone is on the bill too) indicates he is spending hours at a time on the phone with other women. I have not asked him about any of this.

What confuses me is that when he does come to our house, he is very much like the man I married. He can be so good with the kids and we have an intimate relationship. Lately, I have been questioning in my mind whether I want to continue the intimacy because of the possiblity of him having other sexual partners.

Since the lack of sex was a big problem in our marriage, I have felt and have enjoyed my 180 and am more interested in sex than ever before.

I would love for Michelle to comment about sex with your spouse when you see positive baby steps. We have not had an OR talk so I really don't know where he is when it comes to sexual partners. All I know is that he told me he was doing some dating and that he want us to go out on dates. (Of course, my H has not asked yet)

I feel stuck also. It is so hard to determine if there are really baby steps or is this just the natural course of letting go in a relationship. He has not filed for a divorce yet - we have really only talked about that once. But also, he does not have money to file either. He seems very content to leave things as they are which is he sees us when he wants to. And, we are the loving family when he does connect.

Any suggestions for my situation?

I've been reading this board for 8 months, I've read Divorce Busting several times and I've read Divorce Remedy. I've been divorced for 6 months now, we have no contact with one another other than the court hearings for the custody battle he started. I firmly believe that its a mid-life crisis.

He was the one that left, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you", "I'm not happy", etc, He's involved with his boss from the club who has 3 children.

I have done alot of soul searching, self-improvement, starting hobbies again, doing things that I wanted to do, but could never get him to do. I can only DB when it comes to me, we have no contact. What are the chances that he would come home??

Lonely

Hi Michele,

I recently finished reading Divorce Remedy, and have of course read DBing.

In your books, you touched on 'healing' from pain and betrayal within the M. Whether wrong or right, I initiated a separation from my H 1 1/2 years ago (no OM). I was feeling alone and overwhelmed with 3 1/2 yr. old twins. I felt like I was getting no support and I was extremely hurt and angry. With time, I was able to 'get back on track' and my desire to heal our M became first and foremost in my mind...My H and I were getting along wonderfully. I also did alot of work on myself and felt I had the 'tools' to reconcile. However at this time, my H was six months into a R with an OW (and still is). He does not want a D, yet doesn't 'know' if he'll ever be able to forgive me for the betrayal of the separation. I have tried being loving, supportive and a 'friend' (for 6 months) but that hasn't accomplished a thing. Your books say through a loving environment pain often lessens. Not in my case...my H is stuck in the past and doesn't seem to be taking responsibility in the least for our situation.

I am at the point I'm simply getting on with my life. I'm going to try the LRT and not initiate anything. However, I know he will see my not inviting him to family gatherings, etc.(which he is always included in), as me being immature and 'punishing' him because things are not going my way. Will this add to his feelings of betrayal, or
could this shake him up so he'll 'get it'.

I am one of those people who are afraid of making matters worse. Any advice would be much appreciated!

Thanks...
WITW

LAn,
Things do not sound bleak at all. In fact, it sounds like your wife is coming around. You have to be patient. I know that you want to be intimate, that makes perfect sense. But for now, she needs to forgive herself first. Once you have more positive times between you, it might be easier for her to forgive herself.

do family things, be nice to each other and maybe more intimate times are right around the corner.
Michele

LJ,
Sounds like it might be time for you to test the waters. From time to time, risk saying or doing something you've been holding back doing. But watch the results very carefully. If he pulls back, stop immediately. If not, keep experimenting.
Go slowly.
Michele

Pennyrose,
Be careful not to label what you're doing "reconciling". Instead, ask yourself what you need to do for him to consider you his good friend. What does he say you need to do to be good parents. Do those things and hope he notices. That is where you need to start.
Michele

Credo,
I'm glad to hear he's being nicer to you. You know when someone is in a MLC, sometimes there's little you can do to make things better. On the other hand, there's A LOT you can do to make things worse. So, for now, maybe instead of thinking about what you've been doing right, (and you have), it might be easier to think about what you've stopped doing that you know used to backfire. People in MLC sometimes slowly start to see the world through clearer lenses and when this happens, as long as you haven't been overly reactive, they might just come your way more. Maybe that's what's happening right now. Be glad. This could be a very good sign.
Michele

Sosorry,
I have written my thoughts about having a sexual relationship with a separated spouse. I don't know where the thread is exactly, but if you search for it, you might find it. The subject reads something like, "Michelle, what do you think about...."

Anyway, unless you are troubled by being intimate, I think it's a great idea as long as you protect yourself from sexually transmitted diseases by using protection. I think you should have a conversation with your h about this too. But if you feel comfortable about this, being sexual leads to feeling intimate. Feeling intimate often leads to the desire to reconnect. This is especially true if sex was a problem in the past. So why give up an opportunity to be close and to trigger feelings of connection?

Again, this is strictly and individual decision and you have to feel comfortable with it yourself.

as to the rest of your situation, obviously, you can't go on forever with his coming and going as he pleases, but hopefully, this is just a passing phase. Wait and see what happens. If nothing changes, you can always set limits and offer an ultimatim. But don't do that unless you're ready to let go. Okay?
Michele

Lonely@40,
Custody battles are awful, for everyone involved. See if you can get him to agree to go to a good mediator. Good mediators help resolve issues without court intervention and when they're skilled, they can sometimes help couples reunite.
Michele

Dear WITW,
If you haven't already, write him a heart felt letter (The Medium is the Message). Tell him that you love him and that you understand how hurt and betrayed he felt about your decision to separate. Expand on this for a while. And then tell him that you sense his reluctance to move forward and that you've been pushing him too hard. In light of this, you have decided to let go and whatever happens, happens. You don't want to pressure him anymore. You will stop being the glue holding the two of you together. Tell him it's an act of love and that you are just going to give him the space he obviously wants right now. Then end it lovingly.

After the letter, back off big time and see what happens. Does that sound okay to you?
Michele

Michele, thanks for the advice. I have written him many (hearfelt) letters and in the past, he has just rolled his eyes when he's received 'another one'. Well, it's been awhile and one more can't hurt! Perhaps I'll send it by email..better chance of it getting read I think!

We actually got into the dreaded OR conversation this evening. He told me again he doesn't 'need' a divorce, but that I should get on with my life. He also said he knows I care, but doesn't think I care 'enough'. This is the first time I've heard this. I asked what else I could do to 'prove' I love him, given he's involved with another person? He said he didn't know.

So, I should tell him again I'm sorry for his hurt and feelings of betrayal, that I'm not pushing anymore, and that I'm going to totally let go and live my life (said lovingly of course )?? I will compose a letter and wait for your reply before I send it (in case you've come up with something else after reading my reply). Thanks so much Michele...

WITW

Hi Michele,

Have read DB 3 times and just finished reading your new book. It's the best. Thanks for writing it.

I'm 54. W is 52. Married 34 years in November. Three children are all grown and living on their own.

Bomb dropped October 2000. Went thru the various stages. Great sex and good times from October to May/01. May is when she started seeing a therapist. It's been downhill ever since. As of August/01 W has moved downstairs. We have good moments and bad. Both seeing a therapist, although not same. W has agreed to joint counselling 3 times but each time at the last minute cancelled out. We still live in the same house.

Have now set some goals and they seem to be working. We are moving slowlee.

There is OM. When she's in contact with him my anxiety levels go way up. Have tried setting boundaries to which she agrees and then promptly breaks her word. What can I do to minimize my anxiety short of closing my eyes and ears.

Michelle,

Thank you for your advice about staying connected through sex. I guess I am feeling just a little distant from my H now because he doesn't really talk to me anymore. He smiles, he acts attracted to me but I really don't feel close to him anymore. The relationship I have with my H now is based on memory ( that seems to be fading) and based on my desire to save the marriage. So I am unsure about what I will do. But as you have said, keep the goal in mind.

How long would it be considered to be a phase if my H only sees us at his convenience? This has been going on now for 3 months with no end in sight. Just this last weekend he left town to meet who knows who and then called my son from the airport and said he was coming over to watch a football game. We had not heard from him for days (he did not tell me he was going out of town) and then he just shows up and stays for hours. For a portion of that time he fell asleep on the couch and didn't interact with any of us.

Later on that night, he suggested that we all go camping next weekend. I am so confused.

here's what Michele said on the post re:sex in case anyone reading this wanted to know and couldn't find it:

Okay, let me shed some light on what "Michele would say."
As I always say in my seminars, there are no single, one-size-fits-all solutions to any situation, this situation included. However, I do have some thoughts about the issue of having sex with your spouse when separated either physically or emotionally and/or if there is another person in the picture.

For starters, if you do decide to be physical, it's essential to use caution and be smart about protecting yourself from sexually transmitted diseases.

HAving said that, let's explore the emotional side of things. If your spouse is interested in being sexual but shows ambivalence about or even disinterest in your marriage, it makes sense that you might feel uncertain about being close physically. You might worry about feeling used or cheapened in some way. IF this is an overriding feeling, don't do it. However, I look at it another way.

Sexuality is a special way that people connect with each other. Although some people have sex simply to experience a pleasant physical sensation, that is rarely all that happens. Having sex leads to having emotions. If someone is doubting his or her commitment to a marriage, experiencing feelings of connection during lovemaking is a good thing and it might increase the chances that the confused spouse will feel inclined to work on the marriage. Obviously, it doesn't always work this way and as with everything else, the proof is in the pudding. But if you're willing/wanting to be intimate, it makes sense to me to do so and then watch the results. See how your spouse reacts and how you feel about it after the fact.

I know many couples whose physical relationship saved the day. Even when they couldn't talk, constantly fought, their lovemaking was the lifeline between them. Eventually, because their physical connection reminded them that beneath their problems, there was still a lot of love, they were able to work things out. I say, "stack the deck in your favor, if you can."

But not everyone feels comfortable with this solution, and that's okay. YOu have to feel in your heart that you are doing the right thing. If it feels wrong to you, don't do it. If it feels okay, comfortable or even exciting, give yourself permission to enjoy it.

One word of caution. If you've been intimate with your commitment-phobic spouse for a long time and nothing improves, it's time to rethink your actions. Your relationship may have become too comfortable. Perhaps s/he is taking things for granted. Time to consider a change.

Hope this helps a bit. I've devoted a section in my new book- The Divorce Remedy-available Sept. 9th- on this topic!
Michele

witw,
If you haven't done it yet, don't give him a letter. (IT's okay if you wrote one, it's good therapy.

) Since he doesn't appreciate letters, writing another one will be more of the same.

But a short email saying just what you said in your post might be better. Then do what he suggested- move on with your life and let him worry about YOU for a change. I know it's hard, but give it a shot.
Michele

Canadian,
Thanks for the kind feedback.

If you and your w have established goals and you're making headway, even slowly, be happy. That's a good, good sign. Be patient.

As to the anxiety, well, honestly, there's not way around that. You're human. You're a feeling person, what can you expect? It's crappy when she does that. On the other hand, you have to learn ways to relieve your anxiety. Run, exercise, talk to friends, keep yourself busy, be mysterious, do anything but sit around and be tempted to fall of the DB wagon.

Hard? Yes. Impossible? No. You can do it.

Do it. You're moving in the right direction, don't forget that.
Michele

Sosorry,
I understand your confusion completely. Wait until next weekend and see if he really means what he says about going camping. If he does, it will be interesting to see how things go. Take the next few days one day at a time. See how you feel.
Michele

sgctxok,

As usual, thanks for your help. You're always there when I need you!
Michele

Thanks for the encouragement Michele. Appreciate it.

I do exercise. I walk & run daily, do weights every other day and yoga once a week. Have lost 45lbs since the bomb dropped. I've become Lester from American Beauty.

My anxiety levels are ten thousand times lower than they were this time last year. I do go out. And when I look after myself and become mysterious W comes after me. And then the magnetic effect takes hold. I guess I need to better understand where that fine line is between attract and repel. You bet that hurts... to be pursued and then rejected almost in the same breath.

What else can I do? Besides be more patient?

Michele,

Thank you for your advice. Sgctxg-thanks for finding the advice from Michele on sex when separated. I do agree that it is a connection I would like to maintain if possible. But I want more than that. Patience.

I will find it difficult to discuss protection with my H without having an OR talk. But I must so if you have any suggestions, please offer them.

Hi Michele,

Thanks so much for the 'letter writing' advice. I composed a loving email to my H, apologizing again for his hurt and to lovingly let him go. I don't know if he's hearing anything at the moment. As far as he's concerned, the door is closed. If it will open again is anyone's guess.

Even though I understand the benefits of the LRT, is it likely to lead to 'out of sight, out of mind'? That seems to be an ongoing comment around the bb.

Thanks again for your advice...I truly appreciate and respect all you do for so many couples....

WITW

Thanks Michelle, you're right its not reconciling its just working together to be a better parenting team.
We are going to councelling to deal with parenting issues. Sometimes our son goes with his Dad; sometimes with me and then his Dad and I go together.
He has never said I wasn't a good parent. I have never said he was a bad parent either - I have stated that he needs to spend more time with his son.
I don't know if this is a good sign or nor, the "wasband" invited me to join him and our son for dinner tonight. Mind you, he had our son call and ask, so I bit the bullet and said yes that would be nice. I've also extended an invitation to him to join us for Thanksgiving Dinner on Monday (it's Thanksgiving in Canada). I won't put too much into either emotionally.
I still need to figure out what works and what doesn't and work on the 180's. Part of it is - is not being too available. The other is not being too emotional around him. I need to be happy? and more in control?
I am losing hope about reconciling and may just have to be content that we can be good parents and maybe friends.
thanks
Penny/Donna

Michele,
I wanted to thank you for the advice you gave regarding avoiding the things that you know cause a negative reaction, if you can't identify what you are doing what works. I know pretty much what to avoid.

I sometimes feel that my H has dug himself a hole that he doesn't know how to get himself out of. I could always throw down a ladder for him but I need to give him an incentive to climb. I am working on myself and trying to remain positive but there are inevitable setbacks. What would you advise to help someone like me get over these setbacks quickly so they can get back on track as soon as possible?

Credo

Michele,

I've read Divorce Busting, Getting Through..., and Divorce Remedy--three excellent books, by the way. Not only have they made a difference in my marriage, but also in the way I interact with everyone else in my life.

My husband told me (almost 2 months ago) that he was miserable and that he loved me but didn't know if he wanted to be with me any more. I was devastated, but found this message board and got a copy of Divorce Busting. I immediately started applying the principles in the book, took responsibility for my contributions to our problems and prayed. I also started seeing a counselor, and I am now seeing definite improvements.

In Divorce Remedy, you talk about how for men, sex is a way to feel emotionally connected to their wives. I've also seen this addressed in other threads here, buy I've not seen my particular situation discussed. My question is whether men distinguish between forms of sex. When all this started, we were not having sex at all. I would try to initiate, and was turned down; in fact, he wouldn't even let me touch him casually. This progressed to oral sex; and for a long time (in the last few weeks, that is) he was only interested in oral sex (giving and receiving) and sometimes touching each other. Occasionally, intercourse would happen. Intercourse has been much more frequent lately, but it is still mostly oral sex. This isn't really a problem for me (mostly because I've seen intercourse increase), but I have still been struggling with the fear that he has been placating me. (My counselor says that is unlikely he is doing that.)

So back to my question. Do men distinguish between forms of sex with their wives? Does any form of sexual contact with their wives serve to make them feel emotionally connected with their wives? (Or am I just making a bigger deal out of this than I should?)

Thank you,
Alli (hoping)

I do sympathize with "Lonely at Night." I've been in that lonely boat myself for several years. My husband suffers from depression, and this seems to have pushed him into a state of non-intimacy. At first he blamed me, then he stopped blaming anyone, although he still has no desire to be anything other than a room mate. It gets a little old at times. And what "Lonely" says about sleeping next to your spouse is so true, because even when there isn't any actual contact of a sexual nature, it can be very reassuring just to know that some cares enough to be vulnerable about waking up next to you in the morning. It is really frustrating and lonesome not to have that reassurance.

I have read several of the DB books and listened to the tapes too, many times over in fact. Also, I have spoken to two different phone counselors in your group as well as others in person and on the phone from other organizations. While it has helped matters some, I am really at an impasse and wondering how folks like "Lonely" and others like me can take any comfort in the long run. Please help, anybody? Thanks.

Michelle:

Just posted update to my situation on "Let's get started thread", dated 10/09. I know you check in on ocasion,to review how we are all doing.

Michele,

I’ve read both DB and DR and have a question that I don’t think you’ve addressed. In my research I’ve discovered that there are 3 types of affairs:
1) The bridge affair;
2) the self-serving affair; and
3) the repair affair.

Bridge - The bridge affair is a bridge out of the marriage-the death of the marital relationship. The purpose finding a new partner is to leave the marriage while avoiding the confrontation of marital problems. When your partner is having a bridge affair you will notice, if you let yourself, a change in your partner's attitude. If you confront the person at this stage, either you will be targeted as the problem or he or she will lie or deny anything and everything, which will confuse, confound and temporarily help you to deny your intuition and suspicions. Meanwhile, the betrayer is readying for a transition out of the relationship.

I think it’s obvious that 2 & 3 are repairable, 2 being a little more difficult than 3. Is there any hope for the Bridge affair? I'm certain this is the type my W is engaged in. She’s not the self-serving type and if it were a repair affair she wouldn’t be seeking D. It sounds like once this thing has gone to the attorneys the W wants out and that’s that.

Any thoughts?

Well not only was it Thanksgiving in Canada but a lot happened this weekend.

W has become pissy again. She stopped having our daily 10 minute chats. She agreed we could use these chats to minimizing stress between us. Worked for about 10 days. They stopped on Friday. I suspect she met with her therapist that day.

Sunday we watched a movie together with an agreement that we'd talk after the movie. Buttons got pushed. She refused to talk. I pushed for talk. Nothing physical. All verbal. She called 911. They put it down to a domestic with no criminal intent.

This morning she drops a letter on the kitchen table just before going to work. I was in the shower when she did that.

Letter is a proposal for mediation and living separately. Included is a booklet on mediation. I'l let her know later today that I've received it. And hope to get back to her after next therapy session.

Good thing I have my therapy session this Friday. Much to talk about.

[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: IAMCANADIAN ]

Thanks, Michelle, for responding to my question.

I'm still having problems with patience. I did reread that part in your book, as well as the LRT. This time I highlighted both parts and plan to go back and reread them faithfully.

Patience is a virtue, but it's never been one of my virtues. I've been ready to throw in the towel so many times due to my impatience. Now I have released my H to do and be whatever he wants. That's really no problem for me as long as I don't see him. But when I see him, I become impatient again. That's something I really have to work on.

He came by last night to drop off our S, and I again became impatient and he noticed it immediately. I'll have to be like the little engine that could: "I think I can," over and over until I do!

Thanks so much for providing this way for "us" to "talk" directly to you. There is no SBT therapist within 300 miles of me, so I have been going this alone and with the help of some special angels on the bb, and, of course, I'm armed with your books.

Thank you Michele for your insightful advice.

quote:

Things do not sound bleak at all. In fact, it sounds like your wife is coming around. You have to be patient. I know that you want to be intimate, that makes perfect sense. But for now, she needs to forgive herself first.

Michele, it might sound that my wife is coming around. In fact it has been, but it just stopped short of being intimate. I don’t see it will ever proceed any further than this. I know that I have to be patient. As a matter of fact I have been patient for 20 months now. I don’t see any sign of her to do anything to forgive herself other than just being here with the family. As long as I don’t say anything or don’t bring any OR talk it is perfectly fine with her with the current arrangement (just being a roommate).

Michele, I’m stuck. I don’t know what to do. I don’t know how to “further” rock the boat, stir the pot, or shake the fence. I did in the past and it only got worse. That’s why I stopped.

Lot of people here thought that I was a saint already. I just don’t feel like I have enough energy to continue with this any more. I hope the “good time” is right around the corner.

Thank you very much,

LAN.

LAN,

I too feel stuck. I haven't been patient quite as many months as you but my H seems so content to continue things as they are.- in limboland - no papers filed.

Reading Michele's books gives me hope but I am having trouble finding any other solutions to our situation. Playing games and rocking the boat is not for me. My H and I have been separated over 7 months. It has effected my children and me tremendously - but we still want him back and become a family again. I know you want more from your W but it sounds as if you have quite a bit. She is still living in your house and is part of the family. I would love to have at least that.

Feeling stuck and being patient are so difficult when life continues - my children are growing up and their lives are so topsy turvy. Mine too. Stability is one of the things that caused my H to run. He wants to live life on the edge. For my children's sake I need to provide them with some stability and consistency.

So all I can say to you is decide what you and your children need and go for it. Your W will have to decide for herself - there is very little you can do to decide for her. Make changes for yourself - to better yourself and your life.

I still have hope for my situation but I have no expectations. I am living my life now as I think I need to and am doing my best to show my H unconditional love. (Right now he is stepping all over it.) But it is the only way I will feel good about my situation. Getting angry and feeling victimized just pushes my H away and makes me feel like a failure.

Hey ya'll!

I thought I'd pop over here because I have a prob that I haven't been able to find a solution to... Those of ya'll who are familiar with my story know that I was strongly contemplating leaving my H when I came here and read DB. Things have improved tremendously in a short period of time and I have Michele and the people on the board to thank for that...

I've read DB several times and have almost completed DR, but the one thing I can't really find addressed is what to do if there are inlaw problems... I mean, we have those to an extreme degree. My H's family feels like I've stolen him away from them-- because his single mother family looked to him as a sort of "daddy" figure and so they expect him to always drop everything and put their needs/desires first-- the way your children expect that of you... Despite this, I've always treated them with common courtesy-- and even extended an olive branch and tried to be friends at times-- because I was taught that you H's family should be treated the way you want your family treated... On the other hand, my H treats my mom like crap on the bottom of his shoe... she lives with us at this time and unless it has to do specifically with him needing her to do something for the children, he doesn't speak to her... and when he does he's very gruff and short with her. And this is not because my mom has in any way done something to offend him-- she's pleasant to him and would treat him like royalty if he'd be just kind to her because she always wanted a son and had thought having a son-in-law would be like getting that wish fulfilled.

Now I'm not idealistic-- I'd love for them to have a close relationship because I am close to my mom... but I'd be completely satisfied with him just showing her common courtesy so that she doesn't feel unwelcomed in our home. This has been a problem since the beginning of our marriage but I never tried to do anything about it because I thought in time things would work themselves out... but instead it has steadily gotten worse... in the last month or so, I've tried talking with my H about it, but he just sees it as me always taking her side...and says, "this is how I am, I'm not going to kiss up to her just cause she wants it..." which I continue to tell him is not the case at all... besides, it doesn't really have to do with what my mom wants, but what his W wants and what I am expressing to him as something that will keep me from being as stressed as I have been.

It's been recommended to me that I do a 180 and agree with him the next time this sitch comes up, but I can't really see how I can do that without alienating my mother and feeling bad about it because he's so obviously in the wrong... I mean it's to the point that people outside of the family who have been around him ask what his problem is... so besides the whole situation being a tension to me, I have the added pleasure of being embarrassed in front of friends because my H is acting like an ass to my M...

Suggestions are definitely welcomed because after the last go round, I realized that I can't continue like this much longer. I am not a person who understands being mean just for the sake of being mean and at this point, that is what it seems like my H is
doing... and that is the kind of person I don't want to be married to for the rest of my life-- that is for sure.

nicky

Credo,
About getting over setbacks- read pages 155-156 in the Divorce Remedy. Copy the paragraphs and post them to your refrigerator door or someplace where people can't see them. Take the advice to heart. Don't be hard on yourself, just pick yourself up by the bootstraps and start all over again. Don't get discouraged. You have to be kind to yourself.
Michele

Canadian,
Sorry things took a turn for the worse. I hope your session went well and that you received good advice about what to do next. Sounds like a cooling off period may not be a bad idea. You can't push her to talk if she doesn't want to. But I guess you know that too. Hope things are looking up by now.
Michele

Wantittowork,
You ask whether doing a 180 will lead to out of sight, out of mind. It totally depends on your particular situation. That's the point about all of the methods I write about. You try something, and you watch the results. If it isn't working, you switch gears. But doing the same old thing when it isn't working is the best way to create problems in your marriage.

So, try your 180 for a few weeks and see what happens.

Michele

Dear Hoping,
I think it's a good sign that your h wants to have sex with you now since he wasn't interested before. That's certainly moving in the right direction.

As I read your post, I couldn't help but wonder, "Do you and your h talk about sex? HAve you asked him about his interest in only having oral sex? Have you tried initiating other things with him?"

Without knowing your h, it's difficult to tell what's going on in his head about sex. Sometimes people are hesitant to have intercourse for a variety of reasons, including fear of pregnancy.

So, if you haven't already, talk to him and see what he says.
Michele

Golden,
I know you say you've read my books and done other things to help your situation, but in your post, you write mostly about your h's state of mind and how you feel about it. What have you tried so far with what results? That's what being solution-oriented is all about.
Michele

Pas,
I don't know that I fully understand your 3 types of affairs. I'm not much into categorizing anyway. But since you ask, I'll take a stab at it. Bridge affairs, by your definition, are sure to end the marriage. However, I'm fairly certain that everyone on this board whose spouse is having an affair, and that's a lot of people, would define the affair as a bridge affair. Yet there certaintly have been those who have overcome the infidelity and gotten their marriages back on track.

So, I don't know how to respond to your question. Some people who think they're madly in love with their affairees, come to realize that things aren't quite what they seemed.

But this doesn't mean a thing to you if you're feeling hopeless. I know that. I just don't think that affairs or people fit into nice little boxes. Life would be so much more comfortable if they did. I wish things were different for you.
Michele

Lan,
If you've already written about this, forgive me, but have you written her a heartfelt letter about your feelings? Have you gotten angry at her recently? Does she really know how you're suffering with this or have you been totally understanding most of the time?
Michele

[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: Michele ]

Nicky,
Why is your mother living with you? Parents who live with their grown childre, no matter how wonderful they might be, can put stress on the marriage. Your husband may feel left out of your close relationship with your mom and doesn't have a good way of talking to you about it. He might not even recognize it himself. He might just feel angry all the time and unfortunately, take it out on your mom.

Is there an alternative for your mother?
Michele

Thank you very much Michele.

quote:

If you've already written about this, forgive me, but have you written her a heartfelt letter about your feelings?

Michele, I have written my wife a heartfelt letter about my feeling in the past for couple times. She knows how I feel and what I want but she just couldn’t forgive herself for what she has done. Maybe and just maybe it was at the wrong time when I wrote her those heartfelt letters. I have not written any letter to her for several months now. My wife has written me sets and sets of letters (not heartfelt letters) in the past to communicate with me. Each set contained at least 5 or more pages. The last time I received those letters was in May 2001. She wrote me a set of letters almost everyday for a week and the last two sets contained 39 pages mentioning the history of our marriage including the affair itself.

Michele, here is a timeline that my wife mentioned in one of her letters after I kept asking about what she meant when she said, “Give me time to heal”.

1. Stay as roommate (no physical) for 1 year starting May 2001 (our 15th anniversary)
2. Start dating each other again (for lunch and shopping only, no physical) beginning May 2002.
3. Exchange a new vow and “re-marry” on our 20th anniversary quietly between us (4 years after dating to perfect my love to her), and go to the honeymoon along with the kids but book separate room. Then start physical again.

During the 4-year dating, these are what I will have to do:
Listen to her.
Let her have her way.
Do anything possible to keep her happy.
Try not to upset her.
Whatever she wants or wishes for, I will give it to her or make it happen for her (set my pride aside).
Let her have her way and more importantly be willing to wait for her love no matter how long it would take even for the rest of my life if that’s the way it is.

Michele, whether I have gotten angry at her recently or not, it is hard to say. It is an on and off thing. Sometimes she still ticks me off, but I don’t say a word nowadays. The last time I was so angry at her was almost three months ago when I told her that I was not happy with the current arrangement or situation and wanted her to move out or separate. We talked for about two hours in circle and the next day when I returned home from work I thought I would get another set of letters but instead I got one post-it note that said, “Just hang in there. This difficult time will pass. I will try harder.” That was the last time I ever said anything to her about this whole thing. Since then she has been somewhat friendlier than before.

quote:

Does she really know how you're suffering with this or have you been totally understanding most of the time?

Michele, I don’t really know how much she knows or feels about how I’m suffering with this life event. I believe she knows somewhat or how much it affects the kids. For some reason, her number one priority is still the kids. All the activities that we do together are still around the kids or sometimes around her side of family, especially her parents. If I were to prioritize her priority, it would go like this, our kids, her parents, her siblings, then me/her friends.

My wife knows that without me the family will suffer financially and domestically. My wife is still out of job right now and it has been since she quitted her job that she had for 15 years. One of the factors for her to quit the job was due to the OM works there.

Michele, I would love to follow the seven steps in your new book, but I just don’t know where to start with my current situation.

Thank you very much in advance for reading this.

LAN

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: LonelyAtNight ]

quote:
Originally posted by Michele:
Nicky,
Why is your mother living with you? Parents who live with their grown childre, no matter how wonderful they might be, can put stress on the marriage. Your husband may feel left out of your close relationship with your mom and doesn't have a good way of talking to you about it. He might not even recognize it himself. He might just feel angry all the time and unfortunately, take it out on your mom.
Is there an alternative for your mother?
Michele

Hi Michele-- thank you for the response. My mother is going through a period of financial problems-- she's legally disabled and on a very limited income and when she and her fiance broke up, she didn't have another place to go. She is currently saving money and trying to work with different assistance programs so that she can get a place of her own-- ETA right now is that she should be able to move by December.

I can understand that this is how he may be feeling, but that also really doesn't point to anything attractive about him emotionally because prior to my mother living with us, his younger sister and his mother lived with us... His mother lived with us for a little over three years and his sister lived with us until she finished college-- almost five years... and in his sister's case, he specifically told me that he was going to help his sister regardless of how I felt and that he would not ask her to look into finding a roommate or another housing option (and you have to understand that this "younger" sister is only a year younger than me-- so I wasn't being mean or anything, I just couldn't see why he expected more from me in regards to being responsible for myself, our family, my financial obligations for our family and attending college fulltime than he expected from a person only a year younger than me with no responsibilities to anyone but herself)... and also he didn't have any problems with his mom coming to live with us when she and her ex got divorced-- despite the fact that 2 out of 3 of those years she didn't work...

So I guess that's what makes this sitch between my H and my Mom so bad-- his family lived with us and really mooched and I still managed to treat them with respect and courtesy-- and this while they treated me completely disrespectful... but when it's my mom's turn to need help because she really can't do anything else, he's allowed to act pissy and mean? His behaviour isn't fair-- and it makes me extraordinarily angry with him... Both because he isn't willing to give what he expected from me and also because it puts me in a bad situation with my own family because he is in effect saying that I can't freely help my family when they need it unless it some how doesn't involve him at all, but when his family needs then WE have to rise to the occasion, no matter what sacrifices it calls for...

The one real positive about this is that he's been really putting forth an effort to work on the other problems we've had in our marriage... I just needed to learn the right way to approach him and to have some potential solutions available when we discussed the situations... I'd like to be able to do that in this case, but I'm afraid I don't know the right way to go about it without offending him or putting him on the defensive...

I mean I've been taking a look at my part in this situation and I can see several things I've done badly:

*When we were dating, I didn't actively encourage my mom and H (then boyfriend) spending time together to get to really know one another

*I've really bragged about my mom... not on purpose, but I can see how it would look that way to him based on the fact he doesn't have a great relationship with his own mother and knowing that she has been an undercover alcoholic for at least as long as he and I have known one another (11 years). And whenever we've had confrontations regarding our relatives, I've always compared his to mine unfavorably-- as in your mom does x and x to me, but my mom would never do that and has never done that to you... I know that this has caused him anger because he's taken to saying "Oh, so your mom is perfect?"

* He feels like he's always the bad guy because I call him on situations that she tells me about which occur when I'm not there... and he feels like I ALWAYS take her side because he never sees the times when I tell her that I disagree-- that I don't believe he was in the wrong and I believe she's expecting more than is fair to expect. The thing is, I used to always take his side because the things he did were usually done when I wasn't around and I just couldn't believe my H would be so callous--I just thought my mom was being extremely sensitive... it's only recently he hasn't really been able to hide that he really dislikes my mom and can't stand to be in the same room with her... he actually told my stepdaughter that her voice bothers him...

I just feel like we're at this horrible impasse... and I know I can't make him like my mom-- but it's so damn infuriating when there's no real reason for him to dislike her so intensely...

I'm sorry for venting so much-- I just strongly want to find a solution... and sometimes I have this overwhelming desire to tell my husband "oh grow up!" because his actions with my mom seem so childish to me... I mean, his mom has been flat out cruel to me but I realized that she's not going anywhere--she's his mom-- and that I need to be a bigger person because even if he and I broke up the children would need to be able to interact with their grandmother... and both grandmothers have long lives ahead of them since they're fairly young (43 and 45 respectively) so they'll be in our lives for a while to come.

I'm thinking about meeting with him to discuss the two of us creating boundaries about what is and is not acceptable behavior from our families... I'll go think some more about that on my own thread, but I'd love to hear advice from any body who might have ideas-- obviously I appreciate Michele's advice tremendously, but everyone on the board is an angel to me and has such tremendous wisdom...

Thanks.

nicky

Thanks Michele,

My definition came from doing web research. I guess I've placed my situation into the Bridge catagory because my W is driving the D so hard. I'll try to stop looking at negative things.

I pray every day that she'll reconsidor. I constantly try new things. I sometimes think I see results and then findout we're still moving full spead ahead. She has stopped staying late at work but I fear it's just a custody play.

Tuff stuff this DBing. Even tuffer when att have been called to task.

Hi Michelle:

Something happened 2 days ago that was totally unexpected. My SIL (H's sister) called me to say their stepmother is in hospital. This is stepmother my H is currently living with. SIL was looking for my H, and I helped her with that. Then I drove, with some trepitude, to the hospital to see her. I was uncertain about this because H has made met think his family all is totally supportive of him and thinks I am all wrong.

Boy, that was incorrect! H lied to me again. I was accepted by SIL, his stepmother, and assorted other family members with open arms. I found out they are all disgusted with H for his actions,his moving in on stepmother when she was ill (H never noticed she was ill), his taking advatage of her hospitality by leaving her house every morning before the crack of dawn and not returning until at least 9 PM every night.

I told H's stepmother very little, but did have a heart-to-heard talk with SIL about situation. She said they all know H has changed completely and is no longer the person he once way.

I'm treading lightly because, bottom line, this is H's family, not mine, and I know blood is thicker than water. However, right now they want to communicate with me and I want to do the same with them.

I don't want to do anything to make H angry, however, and to alienate him any more than he already is.

Suggestions?

Thanks!

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Jen ]

Hi Michelle,
My H and I have been separated since mid-May and I am currently six months pregnant. After talks about divorce (serious talks) I started the LRT. Well, he started calling more and initiating activities together (ballgame, lunch dates, going to church together) Needless to say, I was/am very excited about this turn of events. When H left, he started doing things totally out of character for him (drinking, experimenting with pills) and seemed to be in a mid-life crisis state. There have been some women since he left as well (and one right before he left-no "relationships" just one-night stands or flings) Anyways, he has recently been talking about getting his life straightened out. He has been going to church, bought a new bible, started listening to Christian music again, and began hinting about coming home. Well, he tells me last night that he wants to come home this weekend and I told him that I do want him home but we have much to talk about. (This is the second time we have been separated) When we talked tonight I told him that I want him home but I cannot go through this all again. I want him to come home for ME and not because of the baby, our son, or because he thinks it is what God would want. (when he left he said the classic: "I love you but I'm not in love with you") Things got very wierd at that moment and he basically said I was right and maybe we need to take things slower so he can think about things more and be "sure". Did I screw up?!! I totally freaked him out and he basically bolted out of here. We are going to see eachother tomorrow and he says we will just take it slow for now but he is definitely weirded out. Whenever we have done stuff lately it has just been friendly, no kisses and hugs are rare so I am confused on how to act. I do not want to scare him off any worse than I might have done already!! Should I go dark and let him figure out his feelings? Should I let him come home for a trial basis? (don't know if I could handle that if he decided to leave again) I just want him to be 100% committed to making us work, then I feel like we would have a chance! Any suggestions? Sorry so long.
LC

Michele,

First, I want to say thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my post; for this messageboard and for your books. (My counselor, by the way, has DB and is getting more of your books on my recommendation.)

My counselor told me this week that she feels H is the kind of guy who is mentally and emotionally present with his body. (Sounds kind of strange, but I understand what she meant and don't want to get into a long explanation of that.) So just the fact that he wants to be with me tells me that he wants to be with me. I also know that his precarious job situation, our up-in-the-air housing arrangement, and my upcoming job decision has him very concerned about finances and, therefore, pregnancy.

I think his fear of pregnancy has been the overwhelming factor here. Have I talked to him? Yes. He just likes it and has been worried about pregnancy. My concern was just whether or not he would still feel emotionally connected to me through oral sex. But things are getting back to normal, and I'm not as concerned about it.

Again, thank you for taking the time to read and respond and for all you do for people.

Alli (hoping)

Thanks Michele.Cooling off is what I'm doing along with going out with friends and just trying to be happy.

I'm glad I can come here and share with you and others. This is an amazing place. Thanks.

Hi Michele,I've just returned from my therapy sesson. We will meet again on Monday afternoon. Reasons will be clear in a minute.

It's evident that from October 2000 to August of this year W has been saying one thing and her actions have been very different. All of which has been confusing for me. But, as of August the sex stopped. She moved downstairs. And her most recent action, a separation proposal is consistent with what she has been saying for the last year. Finally some consistency. But, it also signals the possible end of our marriage. With regards to the police and 911 I need to exercise extreme caution when I'm around W. The worst case scenario is that she calls the police again and files criminal action. That would mean a restraining order and getting booted out of our house. Not to mention a criminal record. So I need to work out a controlled separation (CS) agreement with wife that fits our economic situation, which is not the best. BW, there was no physical or verbal abuse that caused her to call police. She merely needed an incident.My therapist, acting both as lawyer and therapist, recommends that I write a counter proposal for a CS of 12 months. Mediation, which the W proposed, is a non-starter. In fact the mediators that W recommended both work for her lawyer. Moving out by December 1st of this year (her proposal) is also a non-starter unless W's prepared to keep me off Social Assistance.

Not likely to happen. My therapist and I will meet on Monday to review the counter proposal I'm going to write this weekend..Twelve months means that at the end of that time frame W can immediately obtain a divorce. It will also give me sufficient time to organize my affairs as well as find a full-time job.The CS shall propose two separate living arrangements under one roof. We'll have to negotiate the logistics of who can be where/when in the house. It'll also mean I will have to bite the bullet if she wants to have OM join her in her space. Obviously, hot and heavy sex with other people isn't in the cards for either of us.

We'll propose separate phone lines, that sort of thing. Basically, it'll be two strangers living under the same roof. Having this written agreement should protect me in the future event that she calls 911. If I should move her garbage can back to her side of the house and she gets pissy, calls the cops I should be OK. My therapist tells me the police are used to that sort of behavior. Needless to say I'll have to watch my P's and Q's.To ensure that the next 12 months are not pure hell for either of us, we'll propose some joint communications couselling. Hopefully we can find someone who is pro-marriage and SBT trained.Now before you all get weepy-eyed on me... I'm OK with this. Naturally I still would like nothing better than to spend my life with W but since that's not what she wants I need to move on. It'll just take a bit of time for me to find full-time work. Most importantly I value the friendships that I've made here. I intend to stay a part of your lives for as long as you'll let me. You will always be a part of mine. Michele, if you have any additional help with this CS proposal I need to write, or if you disagree with the strategy, I'd love to hear from you. Thanks.

Hi Michele,

Well, I've been backing off for at least a week, and I DO notice a difference in my H's attitude. He is calling me more and seems more comfortable around me. It's not fixing my M, but it is definitely making things less reactive. I suppose after 1 1/2 years of separation, I can't expect much more than that.
For now, and for the first time, I am considering the R as over. Maybe this will take the pressure off and we'll connect again...maybe it won't, but at least I'll be well on my way to happiness in my 'new' life!

Thanks so much again for responding...

WITW

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Michele: Golden, I know you say you've read my books and done other things to help your situation, but in your post, you write mostly about your h's state of mind and how you feel about it. What have you tried so far with what results? That's what being solution-oriented is all about. Michele<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michele, I was really disappointed by your reply to my post. I have spent lots of time explaining my situation and responses to it in detail to the phone counselors and others. I was just expressing frustration that NOTHING seems to work in the LONG RUN. It is very hard to feel that you've made little progress in a difficult situation. Maybe you've never been through this yourself and therefore can't understand this type of pain. I hope for your sake that you never do experience it.

Golden,

******************************************
I have spent lots of time explaining my situation and responses to it in detail to the phone counselors and others
*****************************************

Perhaps you have. However, You have explained nothing here that I can find. Consider starting a thread in Newcomers.

DB and DR are about seeking solutions to the problems that push spouses away from each other. It's hard to help point out possible solutions if you don't tell your story.

Kent

KentS,
I do believe you don't understand why I posted my first message. It was not to explain my whole life story, but to sympathize with LAN and to ask how anyone else deals with the frustration of a long, drawn-out search for a solution. I don't expect anyone else to solve my problems for me. Thanks anyway for being interested.

Golden,
**************************************
I am really at an impasse and wondering how folks like "Lonely" and others like me can take any comfort in the long run. Please help, anybody? Thanks.
****************************************

I have been following LAN as I came about the same time (or so it seems). I also sympathize with his situation. However, I view it a bit different from afar. I don't make a habit of posting people anymore if I don't think I have anything to suggest.

My R is in the rebuilding phase. Or is it? From what I have heard from some, it is all a matter of perspective. My W is working hard on her sense of self. Her crisis tossed me into my own. Perhaps she was just the first to crack. Perhaps it was me. It all depends on who's story you listen to.

When I thought my relationship was finished, it was. When I read DB and decided to think otherwise, things began to change. I was lucky in that my W accepted the changes as genuine and also chose to try.

I needed help identifying my contributions to our failing R. I also appreciated the help finding solutions to my torment and my torment of W. The BB and several associates helped me with that.

I have seen progress in LAN's R. His W is now asking for him to help her heal. Yes, it is long time comin. I applaude LAN for his ability to hang in there. Not many have managed as much. I offer him support whenever I can and I pray he can hang in there cus I ultimately see him receiving reward for the sacrifice.

He uses the BB for support and as a sounding board. I understand if your desire for privacy stops you from doing the same. But I think the answer for some, comes from the BB. At least part of it . I think this place brings some comfort during their struggle.

That is the answer I wanted to give you.

Kent

quote:
I think this place brings some comfort during their struggle.

Kent, I see what you mean, that using a support group for comfort is often a good thing. So if you or LAN or anyone else can hang in there because of online or any other support, that is fine. When I started having really down times a few years back, I found such help at a local chapter of a depression support group. I wanted to understand what might be going on in my husband's mind while he was depressed, since he couldn't express it adequately himself. It really did help to hear others tell about how it feels to deal with depression. Of course, it can't heal his depression, or make him feel emotions normally again, but somehow it helped me to cope better. "Any port in a storm..."
Golden

Nicky,
I have a couple of small suggestions.
First, try to "catch him in the act of getting it right and bring on the fan fare." In other words, when he does the smallest thing that shows caring, respect, or even just consideration towards your mom, make a really big deal about it and let him know how much you appreciate it. That's the best way to shape someone else's behavior- positive reinforcement, not criticism for failure. You can consider thanking him for allowing your mom to live with you (even if his family members have done the same in the past!)

Secondly, I'm glad to hear he is willing to work on other areas of your marriage. You know, research shows that 60% of what healthy couples argue about is unresolvable! This means that you two might always have issues about family. The truth is, the good should outweigh the bad. Although he might never meet your expectations about your mom, he might be a good husband in other ways. You can still have a good marriage even if he is less than perfect towards your mom. I know you wish it were otherwise and so do I for your sake, but if it doesn't change, it might not be the end of the world. Once you start to mellow on this issue, I have a prediction. he just might start being kinder towards her. It's funny, but it often works that way. I sure hope it will for you.
Michele

Junebug,
I don't think you blew it. But what has happened since you last posted? Did he come back? HAs he been pursuing you at all? Where do things stand now?
Michele

Canadian,
I think your plan sounds fine. I don't have further suggestions about it either. Hope things are going well.

Kent and Wantittowork,
Thanks for your very kind feedback!
Michele

Hi Michelle,
Thanks for responding. Things have actually been going pretty good lately. He has still not moved home yet but has told me and others that he is going to soon. We have continued to go to church every week together (for the past three weeks) and I even got two dozen roses delivered to me yesterday!!

The only thing that worries me is the during the past couple of weeks, he is basically unavailable to be on the weekends. He still lives with his cousin and they would have get-togethers there with their friends and I have never been invited. (He still seems to want the party-life on the weekends) I haven't really said anything to him about it (no nagging) other than telling him that it kinda hurts my feelings that he doesn't want me around his friends. I am afraid that they will be a reason for his backsliding on coming home. These people are "partiers" and have introduced my H into some questionable things (pills, excessive drinking). I feel like he wants to break away from that in his heart but the peer pressure is too much on the weekends. Unfortunately, these people also work for our company so it's not like they are going to disappear after he comes home!!

Any thoughts?
LC

Junebug,
I am really glad that things have been better (Roses? I'll say they're better!) and that he's planning on coming home. Great! I do think that eventually the two of you are going to have to work out some agreement about how you spend your time on weekends. But I'd say that for now, wait a while and let the good feelings between you grow. Once he's certain he wants to come home, it's time for a solution-oriented discussion about expectations. You can get some help on that by re-reading Step #3- Ask for what you want.

But it sounds as if you're on a roll, and that's great. Keep up the great work.
Michele

Hi Michele,
Any more thoughts on my last post on page 2?

Thank you in advance for your time and advice.

LAN

Hello Junebug,
Hope your situation continues to improve. It sounds like your husband really wants to be with you, but sometimes he has a hard time with other "temptations" of sorts; i.e., his weekend activities. If he takes his religion seriously (which he probably does), he may eventually come to realize that he can find the strength to overcome things like this that call him away from a more solid lifestyle with you. Maybe he's a bit spaced-out by the fact that his family is growing and he'll soon have more responsibility to another child. He might just be rebelling on some level until he gets used to that. Did he act like this before your first child was born?
Well, good luck!
Golden

Thanks for the feedback Michele.

So far it's working. She hasn't responded to my counter proposal, other than to live it

The upshot is that we're nicer towards each other. And my PMA seems to be getting better. I think it's because I'm surrounding myself with friends.

[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: IAMCANADIAN ]

I just posted for the first time on "Let's get started" and then started reading "New Questions" when my husband called. He wanted to talk about picking up the Christmas tree for his place and sounded very up-beat. In fact the past three days he has called for one thing or another and our conversations have been short but friendly. Before this latest phone call I started thinking that my LRT had been working. I rarely call him, when I see him I act as if and have changed a great deal with the nagging and pursuing. But this latest phone call makes me scared. He sounded so happy and talked sounded so positive that I'm afraid he is enjoying living by himself and having me out of his life. Has anyone encountered this before and if so how did you handle it? Is it time for more changes on my part? If so, I'm not sure what those will be cause I am actually happy now but would still like to work on our marriage and stop these divorce proceedings. Michelle, can you give some input as what to do when he honestly sounds happy without you but yet seems friendlier lately when you do talk? Just what I need now is more confusion in my life!! (LOL) I'm really trying to keep my sense of humor about me as well! Which is one of the things I miss about him - his sense of humor!!

Maxie,
For now, I would just focus on the fact that your conversations have been friendlier lately and that he is calling you. Just keep doing whatever prompted that and see what happens. There are no guarantees, but his being friendly to you is a good thing. Just hang in there.
Michele

Michele,
have read DR and started DB. Posted on DB NOT WORKING FOR ME & X-RATED VIDEOS FOUND. Would appreciate any advice or input you may have. Would like to also set up telephone consult. My H took off his rings last week after big confrontation - he won't speak to me or anything (this has happened before but not the rings) it is like we are separted but still living in same house.
Thanks
Judie

Thanks for taking time to reply Michelle. Me being the optimist that I am I should look at this as a positive step, I just don't want to scare him away again. Also, him being the pessimist that he is, for him to be showing positive signs about anything is rare. I'll keep up what I've been doing like you said and see what happens. There's a saying my son and I have acquired through all this. "Take care of today as best you can and yesterday and tomorrow will take care of themselves." Sometimes I forget to do that. Thanks again for your help and support. You're great!!!

Just an update on my situation and a question at the end:
With Nov 1 child support check, ex sent it inside a Halloween card, and I also recieved a Thanksgiving card on the intranet. This is the first cards I have received from ex in 5 years!! Baby steps!!
Last week we did have minor relationship talk, about needs not met during marriage, etc.The two he stated that bothered him the most during latter years of marriage, were my mouth { I could be very grouchy}, and lack of cuddling! I have really tamed my mouth and we get along well in that respect, in fact he has often said he loves my personality and always has. However the cuddling surprized me--I know our sex life went down the drain when the marriage was also going down the drain, but he said it wasn't the lack of sex, it was the lack of cuddling, that sent him elsewhere!
Here is my dilemma--how do I now meet this important need in his life? He is still with OW,and supposedly engaged, but I don't think he is as happy as he puts on. I say that because I don't think he would ask me out to lunch every few weeks or have sent me 2 cards in the past several weeks if he was totally devoted totheir relationship. I don't know what to do here.Does anyone, including Michelle, have any ideas how to put this into an obtainable goal? He has invited me out to lunch again the Thursday before Christmas!!

DB713,
When you meet, do you ever touch? Do you ever grab his hand or touch his shoulder? In other words,have you shown interest in him physically since all this happened?
Michele

Michelle,
When you asked db713 if they ever touch or she ever grabs his hand I wondered if I shouldn't try that with my H. He is the one that avoids touching me at all costs and treats me like I have the plague. However, tonight on the phone we can talk like good friends. What's with this "touching is off limits" thing? Is he afraid it might spark a small flame still there? (I could only pray!) I'm telling you he makes it so obvious when he just walks by me. And if I were to try the touching thing like you asked db713, it could really set me back. Maybe its one of those "you won't know till you try things." What do you think?
Thanks for your thoughts!!

Michelle,

I am new to all of this. Have read both your books (at least 10 times each!!) and found them very helpful. Been together 10 years, married 5, blended family no kids living with us. He left 3 months ago and told me he wanted his quiet and independence. My problem is that we never fought and he has always been a closed book. He has never shown emotion, whether it is excitement or sadness. He is impossible to read. Even his mom says the same. The only tine we would have R talks is when I brought them up, but at the end he told me that he resented me being aggressive!! whatever that meant.

We are going to joint counselling. He said he would go on his own, but only went once and has never been back. I am going on my own and trying to do what you suggest. We are seeing each other once a week at the suggestion of our counsellor - she says to transition him back home. I am not sure if he is doing this because he thinks he should or because he wants to because he never talks about anything.

He knows our friends and his family love me and cannot believe that this has happened. They all thought we were the happiest couple in the world (and so did I), and I didn't have my head in the sand. I knew he was unhappy but thought it was about his job and his lack of a relationship with his kids. Although when he left he told me it was about my job and my kids (as they are in our life and that hurts him because his aren't).

My question is I am not sure what to do. I still feel as if I am doing all the initating, but he seems to be going along with it (but that bothers me). We have made plans to spend Christmas together at his families home. That means a 6 hour drive both ways and 4 days together at their home.

All your suggestions for LRT don't seem to fit with us, and I am not sure what to try. I want him to initiate things, but I also know that he has NEVER done it before. Our counsellor has told me that if I distance he will distance even more because he will feel abandoned? I am at a loss as to how to get him to wake and up realize what he is losing. Any suggestions?

Hi Michelle and everyone:
In response to Michelle's question about whether we "touch" when I am around ex. The last couple of times we had lunch together, when we were parting, I said"give me a hug goodby" and we did share a hug, a casual one, not overly romantic, but it did feel comfortable and not awkward, at least in my opinion. After our last outing, he did send an email, saying he had a nice time. And since the hate wall has been down, we have had an occasional banter with sexualovertones,,just joking around, nothing at all serious.
He does know I am interested in restoring our relationship, but has made no comment either postive or negative.
I do know he and OW were in counseling for a period of time, but the couselor could no longer help them with certain issues, so at the counselors suggestion, they stopped attending.
I sometimes wonder in the wayward spouses mind--they feel quilty for cheating and leaving spouse, but don't want to go through the whole emotional turmoil thing again by leaving OP. Does what I'm saying make any sense?

Hi Michelle-
I've started reading DR for the second time and got to Step #2-Know what you want. I found myself adding to my first list thinking I still wasn't clear enough. Could you let me know if I still need to break it down further and be more specific?

1. I want us to communicate better. For him to listen to me and look at me in the face and block out every thing else (TV). This would make me feel very special. And he would ask me if I wanted his opinion before he gives it. It'd be nice if he started the talks sometimes but that's not necessary. Just that when I start them he doesn't give a heavy sigh meaning, "Here we go again". His attitude would be more than happy to give me the time of day to listen to what I have to say.

2. I want to share the finances like we are doing now. This procedure we are forced into by the courts has been very good as far as I'm concerned. (See, he was told to move out by November 1). Before I started working in May, I stayed home to raise the kids for 11 years and took care of all the finances. He never had the slightest idea how frustrating a job that was till he started living on his own. Now he sees how tough it was trying to figure out what to pay when. He was the type to spend any extra money we had & I always believed we should have a savings account. If we could handle finances together, now that he is aware of what it entails, I would like that.

3. I want the intimacy to be there on a daily basis. And it doesn't always have to lead to sex every night. I want it to be more sincere - not just a swat on the butt as he walks by or grabbing my chest when he wanted. Honest affection, a touch on the shoulder, a wink would even thrill me. Sitting next to each other on the couch sharing popcorn and a movie would be great.

Do you think I need to be more specific yet or can I go on to Step 4. I have to skip Step 3 (even though I did read it) cause he is sure a divorce is what he wants.

Thanks again for taking time out of your busy day to give me some input. It is greatly appreciated!!

I've been divorce busting one year. H had said last year at this time that he needed six months to get his finances in order and move out. He agreed to go to Retrouvaille then backed out. We've been married 19 years.He's still around. I've been able to get him to stop screaming at me most of the time and we have been able to go out a few times to coffee.Weekends he goes out to meditate. Friday all night and Saturday (Saturday it's from 7 to 1 am).My goal is for us to be friends and in love again.However, I don't know how to get there anymore.We have three children 15, 12 and 8. H is in counseling -- but didn't tell me about it. He blames me for all his failures.Our conversations are highly conflicted. He blows up after a few minutes. He's said he feels unappreciated. Later he said I'm not sincere when I say I appreciate him.I'm not sure whether to distance or appreciate connect or go dark. Frankly after a year I am exhausted, too. I haven't had a real partner in years and am getting run down. Give me some ideas .. he blames his mother for all his problems and has now transferred the blame to me. I want to change my reaction to him. Money keeps us together -- or lack of it.I've worked full time except for when I took a buyout and stayed out of the workforce for 18 months. He was out of work three years. I want to build trust. Not sure how except to do what I said I would do --ignore H when he lets me down.I want to take care of myself.
go to health club, get blood tests and physical therapy (carpal tunnel)
Appreciation
I want to fix things around the house without asking H.
If he does fix something, I will thank him.Since H goes out every week-end night without me, I have started to build a separate life. Won't this pull us apart?Also BIG issue is housework.I am on the messy side and house is messy. H has his own office though, so he can go there. H always complains about house, and doesn't like the way I do things...highly critical.My sister has the same problem -- but cleans furiously and does little else -- I don't want to end up like her.I now have a housekeeper and it's helping, though H complains about that too. He won't help organize stuff, yet complains about me.

Forgot to say I have Divorce Remedy and have been reading it.I'm just so confused about what to do next. Things have improved. But not enough.Now the separate lives is a thorn in my side.

Hi Everyone:
I have a new and totally unexpected update:
To set the story, 8 yrs ago, there was a certain brand name purse that a lot of the girls I work with had, and I wanted one so badly. That Christmas, my then husband got me one, or so I thought. After I opened it, oohed and aahed, the kids all started laughing. Come to find out it was a cheap knock off version, he had picked up. Of course the kids all knew, and were laughing at how excited I had gotten. To make a long story short, my feelings were hurt deeply that he "tricked" me but I never said anything, I just played along. During our divorce four years ago, for some reason that incident came up and I told him how foolish I felt being the "butt" of the little joke.
Yesterday, my now ex, comes over to the house and presents me with a gift--It was the name brand purse I always wanted, and he apologized for that incident years ago! I was totally shocked and speechless- Of course I gave him a big hug, and tears came to my eyes!! We are going out to lunch the Thur prior to Christmas. After he left, I started feeling mixed emotion and questioning gift--does this gift mean he is starting to get feelings for me again, or is the gift the way for him to relieve guilt?
As for update with he and OW--no wedding date is set, he says because the time is not right. They still have issues!As I have stated before, the counselor they went to was unable to help them solve all the issues, so they quit going at the counselors request.
My goal now is to let him make the next move. I sent him brief email message thanking him for the gift, and said Looking forward to lunch. I will let him make the next contact. I don't know how to get his interest from being a friend to a more romantic interest in me, but have decided to give him a hug or some type of touch, if the situation presents itself, each time I see him. Does anyone else have any suggestions--I definitely do not want to get in the pursuer mode and scare him off!

l have posted a message in support needed. lam in my 9mth of separation.l have gone dark numerous times and basically have run out of strategies.my h has an ow.she has just met the children.h knew it would greatly upset me. l did not ackowledge her.my question is this?is the ultimate going dark by moving interstate and leave him and his ow to themselves? our house is currently for sale.l feel there is no way he'll consider reconciliation.l want the message to him is that l am starting afresh in another state and it will show him that l am finally letting go.children visits will be difficult for him even though he only had supervised visits up until 2 days ago.he was still supervised by his parents because he lost his drivers license and his partying left him in state of no sleep still drunk or still stoned.he is now seeing a psychiatrist.his ow is supporting him finacially and buying his love and committment.he lost his job as well.l want the marriage to work and l feel so betrayed that he is doing the things l asked him to do while he was at home.l feel distance will allow him to really feel the loss of his family.l also want to be left to heal,somewhere where l wont be constantly bombarded with him and his ow.my last ditch effort,what do you think?

Hi Michelle -
I'm still working on taking care of myself and doing the 180 and truthfully, when people ask me how I'm doing, I can honestly say I'm doing fine. I'm going back to school and my part time job is being very cooperative with my situation. I am very blessed with that. And when I see my H now and then, I do a good job at being happy and upbeat but it isn't difficult because I actually am happy cause for the first time in a long time I'm taking care of myself like you suggested and it feels good. However, when he called today to talk about what the courts said about New Years Eve and the kids, he talks about him having next New Years Eve with them which is the way the courts have ruled it. What hurts is that he can talk so easily about his future and me not in it. And when we do see each other, he too acts like all is fine and makes me think that we are better off separated and not meant to be together. I'm pretty sure he thinks that since I'm so happy and he is so happy, that we're better off this way. We can get along but not live together. How do I get past these feelings? Honestly, I'm doing fine but this one thing is too difficult to just forget about and hope these feelings will pass. Any help on this one??

Thanks again!!

Maxie,
I'm glad you're feeling better about yourself. That's wonderful. About your question. In addition to focusing on yourself, what have you done recently to get your marriage on track? I know you've been doing LRT, but I'm just curious.

Klynch,
The same question applies to you. In the very few contacts you've had, other than being upbeat, which is great, what have you said about your marriage?
Michele

Michelle, I've read DB once and then lent it to my mother-in-law (his step-mom - she offered to read it because she wants us to work through things and she believes he is in a MLC. I'm on my 4th reading of DR.Here's my synopsis...Husband of 5 years (we've been together for 9 years)...no kids...we live in an apartment and were planning to build a house this summer...We have a unique relationship because his job takes him away for 2 months at a time. He's gone for 2 months, and then home for 1 months. Everything was very good but over the past year or so, it seemed tougher. I knew there were problems and tried to talk with him about it but never considered divorce...just figured we were going through a rough spot.He blew up at me over the phone in early November and said we should just break up - this was out of the blue.Over the next month and a half, we barely talked (he was gone during this time). He came home and hadn't changed his mind...I thought we were going to talk about working things out but he had apparently already made up his mind.He left again and I didn't talk with him for a few more weeks. This was over the holidays and he didn't call or send a card. He has also blown off his entire family and friends - he has talked with his dad a few times, but that's it. He didn't even see family or friends over the holidays.His family thinks he's going through something and can't understand him and really have been supportive of me and want us to work things out.He came home again and acted the same way and then left again. Each time he has come home to talk, we've only talked for about an hour or so and he leaves again. No one, including me, believes there's anyone else.He keeps saying we're 'over' but he hasn't done anything during this whole time to actually start the process...he hasn't filed papers, etc.
The only thing he has done is stopped calling, and during one conversation, he picked up a few clothes and some bills he is responsible for paying...he hasn't been sending much money home during this whole time.He's considering a job that would mean he'd be away even more than normal, and he's had a lot of anxiety about his current job for several months. He might be wanting to 'end' things so he can feel free to make his career choices without having to consider me.I don't want to lose him because I think he's just going through a rough time and he is in a MLC about his career, etc. We've had problems, but definitely nothing that would be cause for a divorce.I know that when you love someone, you love them even when it's hard...what's so honorable about loving someone when it's easy? Yes, it's very hard to love him right now and I might get hurt even more before everything is over, but I know I'm trying to be good to him even when he doesn't necessarily deserve it...and I'm hoping he'll eventually see that too and maybe even appreciate that I stood by him.So as things are now, he's been gone for most of the past 2 1/2 months and we've had only about 3 conversations...all started by him about 'wanting out'. I didn't DB during the first conversation (wasn't expecting this), but I've been working on myself and staying distant since then. When I've seen him I've been calm and haven't argued or even mentioned it.
No matter what he's said, I've tried to remain calm and quiet.I'm not sure what to do...I'd appreciate any feedback you can offer. In a long-distance relationship like this, I'm just not sure how to most effectively DB.

Hello Michelle:Sorry, I'm probably giving you more information than you need...Just wanted to mention that during the first face-to-face conversation, I believed we were going to talk about how to fix things.
Instead, I was surprised to find out that he didn't to work on it. I did all the DB no-no's - but I was calm and didn't cry. I just said that I couldn't believe it, that I KNEW we could make things work, etc.He left and I didn't hear from him again for 2-3 weeks. He came over again and said he was going to take a course and would be gone for a week and then he'd contact me when he was coming back to town so we could work on our finances. I was calmer and even smiled once and I think that really surprised him.Since then he's called a couple of times but he may have called more because I haven't been answering the phone much. We've left short, business-related messages for each other on voice mail but that's it. He sounds very impersonal when he speaks to me, and I make myself sound upbeat.

Hello Michelle:I haven't said much because he's been so unwilling to really talk about IT. He just stops over - the last time for less than a half hour - and tells me when he'll be back again. The next time he's coming back is just so we can go through our bills and figure out who gets what.He isn't talking about the relationship and I'm afraid to bring it up. So he just talks about how we should go about it - finding an attorney, etc. He said he would just come and get a few things and I could have everything else. I said that I would prefer that he moves more of this things because I will probably need to find another apartment and I don't want to have to worry about having to figure out what to do with his things too. That might not have been smart, but I was trying to convey that I was accepting what he was telling me and not arguing about it.He's not being responsible about anything and he's distanced himself from everyone we know. He apologized for ignoring our finances and said that he knew he's had his 'head up his a**'. He said he was sorry and I had every right to be angry. I just said 'No, I'm not angry'.I should also mention that up until a few months ago, we were planning to build a house this year and he claimed he was planning to find another job. During his 'blow up' he said that he didn't have any intention on doing that and was only telling me what I wanted to hear. He's told everyone for a couple of years that he was planning to get another job.By the way, thank you SO much for what you do! Your books have given me hope. I'm doing a lot of introspection and have determined what I did wrong and could do to make things better if we reconcile. I hope I get that chance. I love him very much (just can't tell him that now).

need some advice bad. After my affair my wife decided she wanted to work things out. However after 7 months she decided she wanted me to leave or she would get a lawyer, so I left. We
have been seperated for almost 3 months now and it has been hell. At first she would talk to me on the phone, and I would stop over. Each time I callled and stopped over I cried to her and beggered her to let me make it up to her. But she didnt care. Now she wont answer my calls and
the last time I stopped over she called the cops. It has been 8 days since I last called her, so I called her tonight and she hasnt answered. Do you think her mind is set in stone that things are over? She told me she was going to a lawyer but i havent heard anything yet. I am really scared she has found someone else. She is always going out with her "new" friends who are mostly guys. She even talks on the phone to them. It kills me to think about her with another man, when she is so cold to me. I have read dbing and started DR, how can I show her I am changing if she wont answer the phone. I so dicouraged, I just want to love her with all my heart and make her happy. Any input would be helpfull. Thank you so much.

Hello sschust:

I think I can field this one Michelle

Sschust, the only choice I think you have right now is to stop doing what you're doing. First of all, you're obviously going down a 'cheeseless tunnel'. Second of all, if what you're doing isn't working, stop it immediately.

You are pressuring your wife by calling and begging and crying - that behavior is probably what is making her run the other way. The only way she might choose to come back is if she feels that it is her decision made in her head.

Stop calling, stop crying, and stop begging. The only thing you can control right now is your behavior, so start focusing on making yourself the best you can be. Work on yourself. Focus on what you should be doing for yourself and forget about what she is doing.

I know that is incredibly hard...I struggle with that daily, but it DOES get a little easier. It also will take a little bit of anxiety off of you once you begin to take charge of yourself. Right now you feel helpless and powerless to change the situation. You CAN change yourself and the sooner you start the sooner you will begin to feel more powerful.

As Michelle says, this MIGHT not assure that you will get your wife back, but what you're doing now will almost assure that you won't. So instead of focusing on getting your WIFE back, concentrate on getting your LIFE back.

Michelle, please feel free to correct anything I've said that might be bad advice.

Michele,

First let me thank you! Reading The Divorce Remedy has given me hope for the first time in quite a while. Now the question. For background you can read Recovering addict needs advice
http://66.111.66.234/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=005306

I should be starting a new job very soon that pays quite well. My W and daughters are living with her parents and she is not very comfortable imposing on them. How can I provide money to her so she can get a place without it appearing to be pursuing?

Klynch, you wrote:
I think he feels that if he didn't have me as his wife, he would no longer have to consider me when he makes a career decision. If I was just his friend, he could have a relationship with me that wouldn't involve that consideration.

This sounds familiar to me, as my husband brought this same topic up several years ago. It seems that sometimes a man who is responsible for others (wife, family) will often get these thoughts and not know what to do about them. He wants to be free to either keep or change a career path (part of Midlife stuff), but then he has to consider how this will affect the family...and it's just too much to handle. He may consider ditching his family, not because he hates them, but because he can't cope with all the complexities involved. Does this make any sense?

Golden

I have a message above that was answered with some great insight. How long should I wait before I do call her? I am making positive changes within my self, but shouldn't I be trying to show her the changes I have made. How long should I wait before I call her? Thanks for your help. I greatly appreciate it.

Michele,

I'm a little bit uncertain if I'm doing the LRT right, or if there's something else I can / should do. My story is posted in the "I NEED SUPPORT" forum and they are titled, "Looking for help / advice!!!" and "Looking for help / advice!!! (Part 2)".

Briefly, September 2001 H told me he didn't love me anymore. November 2001 (1 week after coming home from 2 week business trip) he told me he needed to leave for awhile, so he went to stay with a friend or his Mom. The 2nd week of December, H told me that he wanted to do an "official trial separation", (something he spoke of with our counsellor), because the "dating" and counselling we had been trying wasn't working for him, (wasn't getting the feelings / spark back). So, our contact reduced even more. The last I saw him was December 21. After that I didn't see or hear from him until I sent him a business like e-mail around 10Jan (also sent him an e-card for his b-day). I then followed up this week because he never got back to me. We then had a 20 minute phone conversation that seemed to go well. I was supposed to hear from him by today sometime so that we could set up a time to meet and go over bills and stuff. I haven't heard from him.

So, I've been doing the LRT, but alot of it has been imposed by him because he doesn't contact me.

What can / should I do by way of contact? Am I doing the LRT right by not calling him, (eventhough it was basically imposed by him?) He seemed happy / relieved when I called him Wednesday. By me not calling him, he wasn't contacting me...does that mean it wasn't working and I should try something new??

I don't know for sure where he's staying, I don't know where he was over the holidays, (and he has asked that we don't talk about it). How should I proceed with the LRT? Is this the right step for me?

Thanks for any advice.

caw.

OK, he called. He acted a little nicer to me today...he said he was on his way back into town and asked if we could talk sometime tomorrow. He said if I had plans he would work around them. I said that I did have plans, but it wouldn't be a problem because they weren't going to take all day anyway. He asked me to call him when I got home and he'd come over.He didn't say anything about 'working out bills' or anything like that...he said 'so we could talk for a little bit'.I was polite and upbeat - I asked him how his class went and he said 'good' (again, he was upbeat) and I said 'I don't think I even knew what the class was for' and he told me a little bit about it.He asked about some mail he thought he might have received and I said I wasn't sure what he had received specifically. He asked if I would mind if he stopped at the apartment today to pick up his mail and I said, 'No, that would be fine.'I hope his demeanor today sticks with him tomorrow when we talk. It was actually easier talking with him today because he seemed a little more like himself.Of course, I'm a nervous wreck that I'm going to handle the conversation wrong tomorrow. Any suggestions?

Hello Michelle:I have an update to my situation, if you're interested and have some advice.My thread is on "I Need Support" and it's called 'I don't want to lose my husband (Part II)'.

Hi Michele,

My thread is posted on the mid-life crisis board.I wanted to tell you how fate may have dropped the "Divorce Remedy" right into my life at exactly the right moment. My airline captain husband of 24 years suddenly announced he was leaving me, about a month before Christmas. This was a previoulsy kind wonderful supportive lovng man-who always put my happiness above his own.
I attempted to kill myself when he left me, and should have died according to the Dr's in the E.R. I swallowed alot of pills, but not enough! The next few weeks were just an unbelievable nightmare, where I did everything wrong!!!
In mid-January I flew out west to visit a friend for a few days, and to go see the mountains. In the calgary airport as I was heading to the gate to catch my flight back to Toronto, my little suitcase on wheels knocked over a nice display of books. WHen I bent down to pick them up, I read the title, "The Divorce Remedy"and knew I better buy that book immediately. I read it completely by the time my four hour flight was over, and i began implemementing the last resort right away.
It seems to be working, and i know it is the only chance i have of saving my marriage.Luckily there is no other woman involved, but i feel i need to get my husband back before he does get interested in someone else. How much backing off is too much?

Wow Michele!!! How do you keep up with all this? You truely are a wonderful woman and I have much respect for you.
I wonder if you could help me with this one? My thread is Cant do this Anymore on NC.
Big problem now is business. I cant get out because H cant buy me out. The B is in dire straights. My H is determined to save it. I realise that we would lose everything we have if we sold or I forced settlement now so would like to also work it. Trouble is, I am finding it so hard to detach whilst working with him everyday, I am scared when OW returns from east she will come in office etc. The reason I wanted settlement was to be able to move on. My H said, "you are making everything so final!" This is just after he told me he wanted to explore R with OW and not work on our M!
My thoughts are:
1. Work together to save business, perhaps in doing this H might realise that I am not so bad to have around and want to work on us one day.
2. Let him have his time with OW (not much else I can do anyway) and maybe he will see grass not as green.
3. If we are to work to save business that H does not allow OW to come near office. I couldnt stand that, it would kill me!
How do I do this and DB effectively?
H is coming around tomorrow to talk about our options with business and how we can do it. I fear he is going to ask me to not work there and trust it all to him, his track record doesnt give me much faith. It (business) is so part of us and our plans together am wondering if it is something worth holding on to and working together on? When I look at it, the people who have been telling me to just get out, are divorced people who have not managed successful relationships and who just think I am wasting my time. Am getting so much conflicting advice from family and friends, work associates etc. I am scared and battle weary, and all the other stuff. My brain just doesnt want to work properly atm.

Thankyou
Love BA

Hi Michele
I want to thank you for the books that you have written. I have read them over and over. I have a post on midlife crisis.
My husband and I have been separated for 14 months. He has not filed for divorce, but constantly says he won'y come home because it won't work between us. He says he will always love me. He doesn't call or come by anymore. I usually call him every 5-7 days to see that he is okay. I really wish you could give me some of your great wisdom or insight as to what I am supose to do or expect from him. We have been married 28 years. Our sons are married. I really feel as if he waiting on me to file for a divorce. I think he could leave things the way they are for the rest of our lives. Please send me advice.
Pam

Michele;
My wife is having an EA and says she wants to work on our marriage but does not seem to want to end the A.
I've been trying to follow your suggestions for when he/she does not want to end the affair, including the "Last Resort".
One problem, though, is that I cannot bring myself to stop saying "I love you" or having sex (which she's wanted more now that before), and really, I think in many ways we've both begun to change the many problems our marriage had.
Any suggestions for a "modified" or "hybrid" Last Resort? / or other way(s) of dealing with her not wanting to end the affair?

Hello Michelle
I want to thank you for your support for all of us out there that ar struggling to save their marriages. I'm new to Divorce BustingI have both of your books, I've finished DR, & reading DB. But I'm having a tough time with LRT. My H told me in Sept. that he was having an A with a friend & co-worker of ours (she left a few months before this all happened). Anyway he has tried twice to stop the A, but can't. He still is at home with me, sees her at night after work. And it is tearing me apart. I told him he if he needs to see her go, because he needs to figure this out & I woudl be there for him. But I am so tired of feeling like I'm the door mat. He can go see her, come home, be with the kids and I'm so sad. How do I get out of this funk!

LF

Hello,
I'm sorry to bother you with this ridiculous question, but here is goes. There was a thread under the name "went straiht to LTR"-Hangin On & Kacey, here at Divorce Remedy Book Club and I'm wondering how I find it again since its been replaced this you question board. Which is fantastic. Thanks

LF

Yes, Why me, I know exactly what you are talking about. This friendship and easy going communication with a spouse who decided to get out of M. I am struggling with it a great deal, and sometimes am completely lost. This good, friendly relationship is a MUST for any positive comeback. However, I've learned not to conclude too many positive conclusions based on improved communication. In my humble opinion, spouse's friendly approach to us during these difficult times doesn't necessarily reflects any change in their hearts. This is how I feel in my case. Despite a significant improvement in how W and I communicate, we are miles away each from other, emotionally. I feel a lot of love, and I sense almost none from her, other than that friendly attitude. I hope I am do not sound negative, but I just want to share with you my view. Please, be strong.

Michelle, I have read DB but have not began DR yet. I need some advice, My h and I have been separated for 3 months. There is no anger between the two of us we get along fine. As hard as I am trying he keeps saying he just thinks of me as a friend and maybe that's all we've ever been. I know the latter to be untrue! I don't push him whatsoever, and I never bring up OR. He asked me the other day how I was doing and I told him I was okay but I missed him and still loved him. It seems that others on the board go from not hearing from their spose or from the WAS being awful to them to being friends. What do I do? We never hit rock bottom in that sense. He says their isn't anyone else and hasn't been looking, but if things continue as they are, he will. What to do? He seems to be satisfied as friends only. We have been married for 8 years with 3 kids under the age of 7.

Wow, I feel like I am looking in the mirror! I would like to hear from someone who has been in our shoes and is seeing improvements. I need something to hope for!

When h and I were still together and before I began changing myself, I had a no care attitude. I rejected my husband , I had a lot of anger towards him, I told myself many times that when our kids were older; I was going to leave. I thought about life with someone else, wondered what it would be like, etc. I never dated anyone else and began to question my marriage. I realized later that I truly love my husband and that he and I were not a mistake to be together and began changing my attitude. Now we are separated, I guess my changes weren't quick enough. So my question is, If I am to stop pursuing my h (which I have done months ago) how can I put my 180 into practice? For me a 180 would be to show that I do care, give him compliments, be more physical with him, show him more respect and understanding. How can I do those things, wouldn't that be pursuing him or pushing him? What can I do? We are friends, but I want to move from that (forward of course).

Michele,
I made a mistake the first time I typed this and it is posted as a new topic, rather than under this heading. Please bear with me, if you've already read it once. I will try to be brief, but also give you enough info to try and help. My question first - I'm wondering if using the DB tecniques can reach someone who has a sexual addiction and is trying to run away from his problems?? Here is my situation - married 11 yrs (been tog for 13). Our r starteed as an A (not something I'm proud of) at the end of his first m. Have two sons - 5 & 7. We moved across country so he could get the job of a lifetime. We are both 46. After the move he started expressing thoughts I know now are typical of a MLC. I made the usual mistakes of pleading, etc.. thinking he wanted to feel needed. He left last Nov. - wanted time to think. I confronted him about whether he was having an affair and the answer was yes (now know the real reason for leaving). I've since discovered and have read both DB and DR and have backed off, for the past several months. He regularly visits he kids and I've ried to have the PMA and have kept busy with my activities. He is going to c and is on antidep to tx his clinical depression, which seems to be working now. It seems like he is popping his head out of his hole periodically and is testing the waters, gets a positive response from me and then he goes under again. I am feeling stuck. He and I have talked about if I tell him he is needed or if I act like I can handle verything that either approach seems to make him run. SO.....right now...again I feel stuck and that the circumstances are overwhelming with the odds not in my favor. There seems to be so many layers to the situation - MLC, clin dep, ?? of sexual addiction and now an A that has lasted about 10 mo ("because we can have fun and a r should always be fun/he admits he is scared to be by himself). I think he has some degree of s addiction because during the course of all of this he admitted to having affairs of varying lengths throughout his first m and ours - in addition i think he views porn on the internet. What a mess. I think I'm at the point of needing to try he LRT, but don't really want to lose him for a variety of reasons. any suggestions would be most appreciated.....thanks in advance. Reed

Michelle,

Your earlier advice was to give H unexpected hugs now and then. It seems to have worked.

However, H is really unhappy with himself he's 52 and has accomplished little in the way of career. Financially we're not doing well -- I took a lower paid position so I could be close to home and see my kids. The job has retirement and benefits. (H doesn't have these). Our children are 15, 12 and 8.

H is really confused and forgetful.

I have to schedule everything. He never suggests anything for us to do. He still acts like we can't get along -- I think it's five years since he said he wanted a divorce. We still live together -- since I decided not to try to make more money to accomodate his desire for a divorce.

Justdoit

quote:
. However, I've learned not to conclude too many positive conclusions based on improved communication. In my humble opinion, spouse's friendly approach to us during these difficult times doesn't necessarily reflects any change in their hearts. This is how I feel in my case. Despite a significant improvement in how W and I communicate, we are miles away each from other, emotionally. I feel a lot of love, and I sense almost none from her, other than that friendly attitude.

I feel I am in the situation buddy.

smileysmile, here is my update. W and I are as close emotionally as ever. We broke this coldness. It took solid 3 month of a better communication, a lot of self search for both of us, a lot of changes on my part, but we are back. We still need to do a lot a lot of work, we still see a C, but we are back. Physical closensess followed emotional part, and our lovemaking is better than ever. While I am a happy camper these days, I still spend whole a lot of energy on trying understand how stupid had I been to cause this marriage to be almost over, and how we both will never let it to happen again.

Michele, I have a question about when to use the LRT. H moved out 3 months ago. Basically an explosive collision of long-term sexual problems (mine), MLC (his), and major depression (mine). Since we are living apart, by definition according to DR I should LRT. I've stopped talking about R, I've stopped trying to remind him of good times, stopped the presents, stopped telling him I miss him and love him. However, he wants to be "best friends" and seems to be pretty agreeable to my asking for dates (of course, I'm not calling them dates, just "hanging out"). He also seems to enjoy email banter, as long as I keep it light and non-serious. There is no OW, he says he is not looking yet (YET!),and up to two weeks ago we still had an intimate relationship (then he decided it would "ruin" being friends); he still wants to hug and kiss, but nothing beyond that. So do I try a "modified" LRT, or should I go dark and stop all communication and suggesting dates?

Michelle. I can't figure out how to deal with this situation in DR. Summer says to behave as if your husband is dead, but what if I might see him at a gig with OW? Please take a look at my latest thread. I would be most grateful.

Hello Michelle:

I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts you have on our situation. I will try to keep my story as brief as possible.

Married for over 5 years; together for almost 10 years. Husband works away from home a lot (2 months at a time with a month home); I work full-time; no kids. We were planning to build a house this year. The separations were tough at times, but I was OK with it because he was doing something he enjoyed. He was stressed for several months about losing his job but didn't tell me. He blew up unexpectedly and dropped 'the bomb' in November over the phone during a discussion that apparently he didn't want to have about a job change he was considering.

Since then he has blown off his family and friends - very rarely talked with his dad but that has stopped too. Our family was as shocked as I was about all of this.

He has someone else handling his bills because he's away and had his address changed to their address. He very rarely has sent any money but has when I've asked.

We have no separation agreement or divorce papers. He offered to let me keep everything we own, but I said politely said no and that he would need to move his things on his own - he hasn't moved anything out of our apartment since this started. I had started DBing by this point, by the way.

I am confident that he is not seeing anyone else. He's been spending a lot of money over the past few months, and has been drinking a lot. He basically stays away from people who might confront his behavior.

I started DBing in January - I've read both Divorce Busting and Divorce Remedy several times. That DID help put a halt to or at least stall divorce discussions because I changed how I reacted to him.

I haven't seen him now since mid-March - for about an hour - things went better during that visit than in the past. I've only seen him now in person about 3-4 times since January.

I haven't talked with him since mid-May. I never hear from H unless I leave him a voice mail specifically ask him to call me back. He never calls me on his own.

I worry that he is going to continue this behavior for a very long time - he might be one who never comes out of it. He has some communication problems and some past emotional troubles that might make it harder for him to recover.

I've never really been able to figure out whether I was the pursuer in our relationship, so I'm not sure if my 'going dark' is the right thing to do. I haven't tried to contact him in any way since mid-May or early June.

Two family members tried contacting him a few times last week and he never returned their calls.

Because I never see him or speak with him, I'm not sure if what I've been doing is helping matters or not.

I sent him a birthday card and left him a voice mail, but he ignored my birthday. He hasn't acknowledged any special days for his dad or step-mom either.

Prior to this situation, we were best friends and even agreed that we had a really good marriage. Over the past year or so, we had some added stress and started fighting a bit, but I never would have thought a divorce could come of it. The problems just weren't that serious. I've considered that his job stress may have made him question a lot in his life and his reaction was to run away. In fact, I think that some of the stress leading to this was due to his somewhat odd behavior - which I now believe was job stress - and my poor reaction to his behavior changes.

Three short questions:

1. How can I determine whether I've been the pursuer or not? I understand that what matters is HIS perception of that anyway.

2. Do you see any hope for this situation?

3. Any advice for those trying to DB when there is virtually no contact with your spouse?

Thank you in advance, Michelle. I know that you're very busy, but we had a rather unique relationship to begin with and it might take some unique actions.

Michele, H has separated from me after 3-4 years unhappiness. He has collected so much bitterness over time and stored it. H now has reached apathy and tells me he likes me but doesn't love me anymore. Is it really possible for this bitteerness to fade or disappear. So far I have read Db and Dr and am implementing them. No OW etc. Do you have any suggestions on methods directed at this problem. He blames me for so many things .

Michele,

DR saved my life, thank you so much.

Question: My H has moved out, so I am in the process of doing LRT. Some things that would be 180s for me seem to conflict with LRT (such as: showing more affection, initiating sex, etc). How do I sort this out?

Thanks.

Michelle, I have read alot on this board about WAWs and their causes and justifications. I look back on my relationship and see many things I could and should change in my behavior (I'm working on them now), but I can see just as many things I wish my wife would change. The difference is, I would never consider walking off from my marriage. Why can some people overlook the negative aspects of a relationship while others dwell on them. Is there any particular personality type that is prone to be a WAS?

Hi Michelle,
After 8 months of C my W finally came clean and said she has been living in fear of me. I have become an angry person over the last 5 years, and I didn't even know it. Partly because of my wife but mostly because of me. She told me she is tired of feelinf that tenseness when I become angry at anything. She wants a D and has told her family and two close friends. She has conquered a lot of her demons through C, her sisters death to cancer, being so far from her family and a host of other things. I find it odd, that she is still in the house, still sleeping in our bed, and still wears her wedding band. She has told me we can never be more than friends, and she doesn't want to hurt me. She also said that in the past she used sex to manipulate situations where I might become angry. That is hard to hear because in the same breathe she said she hated having sex with me but once she was in the mood it was very satisfying. So the sex thing is a big block for her, and something we have yet to talk about in therapy. I doubt whether we will because I am going alone now for my anger and my wife has indicated that she canot go with me because she feels like she will be doing more of the same which was trying to controll me. That is what she saw as her job in this marriage as a manager of me. I know that is a lot to comprehend, but deep down I know my wife is not sure about anything right now. Do you think she is still here becuase she is waiting to see how things play out?

Michelle,

You responded to me on my thread once in the very beggining. Unfortunately, my H went ahead with the divorce.

How do you DB after you are divorced? XH wants nothing to do with me and is now involved with OW, practically living with her. I sent Xh a nice letter last month just letting him know I was thinking of him. There was no response or comment from him.

I post in MLC under Playing with my Head.

Thank you.

Hello,

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I can't find my situation in the Divorce Remedy book. My H of 13+ years left just 3 months ago saying he was bored and needed some space. In three months he has moved in with OW, lied constantly, called me regularly, tells me he loves me and wants me to wait for him. Last week I found out that the OW is pregnant with my H's baby. He is 40 I am 53 I thought we had a good marriage. At first I thought it was MLC but now I have no idea. I'm beginning to think that God never meant for women to marry such younger men!

I moved 650 miles away to be with my 90 year old father to help him. I visit my 86 year old mother with Alzheimer's in the nursing home regularly. I've been helping with the care of my brother (64) who we just found out is dying of cancer.

My H always asks if I still love him. He asked tonight if I would consider raising his child if that could be worked out once the baby is born. He seems somewhat serious, he said tonight that I'm his soul mate in the Christian sort of covenant marriage sense. He had always said he didn't want kids and was really close with my youngest son.

Another odd thing about my H's behavior is that he couldn't understand and got angry because my brother doesn't want to see or talk to him. My family loved my husband and they have been crushed by this whole thing.

Anyway, I have grown a lot during the last 3 months and that is a good thing. I have been trying to learn to enjoy myself but the grief and sorrow are so hard to bear sometimes. I have been nice to H when he calls. Also, he has filed for a D and I should be getting some updated papers on that shortly. For a while he said he was going to stop the D but he hasn't and in my heart I feel that he won't.

My perspective is all messed up and I really do need help sorting through all of this. I haven't posted to this board in a month or so but I have been reading. I don't seem to find anyone in a similar situation. This feels pretty lonely.

Thanks,

Jodi

An Update:

Today God released me to let go of my husband because of the baby they will soon be having. This sweet child will have a hard enough time of it with it's parents. I won't be party to the deception that my husband is already involved in with his child's mother. I am sure she doesn't know that he calls me almost every day and has asked if I would consider raising this child with him.

He called tonight and I told him that it's over and not to call me any more. I told him I will sign the divorce papers he had sent to me and get them in the mail to the attorney. Now it is all in Gods capable hands.

Jodi

Just wanted to let you know this doesn't re Homeworks' post. I just couldn't figure out how else to do this.

Dear Michele,

I am writing to you here because I haven't received any answers to my thread (maybe it's just too long). Sorry about the length of this one too but I can't help it, I've tried to edit to no avail.

My H left me on May 12, 6 days after telling me that he loved me but wasn't in love w me anymore ( not his soulmate, doesn't want children w me etc). Said he's been thinking about this for about 1 year but didn't tell me a thing because he didn't know how, didn't want to hurt me and the time was never right. I had no clue. I wasn't happy in the past year either and would probably have been a potential WAW. But I am committed to my marriage and would not have left w/o trying in every possible way including councilling. We have been married 3yrs (May 8) and together almost 7 (Nov 11).

This past year was not a good one. We worked very different shifts so only saw eachother weekends and this time was devoted to non fun stuff like house or tenants, with which we were having major problems. To add to this, I had constant back problems as well as anxiety attacks (due to tenant situation).

During his year of contemplation, he started taking an interest in clothes, cologne and partying. I felt like a had a teenager at home (he was constantly out with his single friends). He was also making very many much younger friends (he's 28). I felt very alone and as if he didn't want to spend time with me. He denied not wanting to spend time w me and made up excuses. In short, he lied to me for a whole year! There is no OW but I'm not sure about EA and this would be through internet chat. He also was constantly on the internet chatting w friends.

H also freaked out over children when our friends started having them. To the point where he didn't want to go see or call the people who were having them. He kept telling me things like it's fine to have children at 35 (I'm 29). He also had less of an interest in sex. I confronted this issue as well. I gave him his space to work things out and even was nice about the going out. However, I resented feeling second best (behind his friends) and having to be the mother around the house, responsible for everthing, so I nagged and got nasty and cold.

When he left he also changed jobs and dropped some close friends (especially the only married one he has). He said he wanted to be free to do what he wanted. When he left in May he wanted D and is still sticking to his guns. Says that he'd be willing to try working things out if he loved me but he doesn't so there's no point. I feel like he just got scared and ran away!

The 1st week I did all the no no's and he stayed to comfort me. Week 2, I found DR and got to work. My problem is that he's been nicer to me since the moment he told me he was leaving than he ever was this past year. It feels like we're dating. He said that last year he didn't want to spend time with me but seems happy to do so now. Is also more considerate about what I like etc.

He was extremely nice and attentive. I convinced him to go to C for me in order to understand what happened. He agreed because he doesn't want me to be depressed or to blame myself for what happened. It's like he expected me to just say OK and not think anything of it!We had 1 C meeting in the middle of June and will restart in Sept. (I was injured and had an operation in between). I learned that he is convinced that there was nothing wrong with our marriage (no major problems) and thinks I'm wonderful, kind, beautiful etc. However, I know we had problems, communication for one.

May and June he was extremely worried about me and wanted to know all I did & how I was feeling. He noticed all my 180's and didn't seem pleased. He also reminisced about the good times in our marriage a bit. His worry/ care for me is reminiscent of the worry parents have for their very 1st child in the 1st year! He didn't even want to give me the keys to the apartment in case an emergency happened and I needed him (my brother lives downstairs). However, during this time he didn't talk about himself, was uncomfortable in my presence and didn't look me in the eye. I also had to stop touching because he still wanted me to lie in his arms in bed and stuff (which he considered as just being friendly) And this from the man that didn't want to go to the movies with me in case I got the urge to cuddle.

After our 1st C session, he comforted me and we ended up in bed together (after assuring himself that this would not hurt me and after letting me know that there was still no hope for us even if he slept with me). We have been intimate ever since and through my medical ordeal he was there for me (and worried about as much as my parents). Intimacy has brought positive things such as him wanting to see me more (not only for sex), being more comfortable in my presence, talking about himself, his plans and sometimes some feelings about non OR things. However, he no longer has much interest in what I do (mind you I've been at home for 2 months now and injured). Every once and a while I get coldness and a reminder we're still through but I've noticed that this is usually the next time I see him after a particularly tender encounter.

Last week, he told me that he is now over me, called me his XW and told me he was finally happy (he told me both in May and June that now he was happy). He said it was just a matter of time until he found a girlfriend because he is now ready and is looking for a serious relationship (woman of his dreams). He also told me that he felt without a home.

Yesterday he asked me how I felt if he had a girlfriend and I said I'd been expecting it for a while (and resigned to it). I know of many women chasing after him since May (from him and spying on pager messages {I've stopped}) but there was always something wrong with them. If you have possible sexual opportunities with others, why sleep with the wife you left? He also asked me if I finally understood how he could care for me so much and yet not be in love with me. I said I didn't but had no choice about it. He still carries our wedding picture in his wallet (hidden but still there-OK I peeked!).

Should I beleive the words coming out of his mouth when his actions are the opposite? Problem is he doesn't sound like an alien when he talks and I wonder if it's possible for a person to have all those feelings and not be in love. To me it feels like it did when we were dating and in love! I'm also wondering if 1/wk is too much to see him and if he's finally happy now because I'm around a lot (when I wasn't, he kept telling me that the breakup was hard for him too and that he cries-May&June). If I don't miss him all that much until the next time I see him, I guess it's the same for him and I should back off more?? Does it sound like he's getting too comfortable??

It seems like my 180's have been working but it's hard to tell because he's been so nice since the beginning. I'm wondering if all my positives are just the natural progression of him detaching from me. I'm getting closer to him as a friend and I hope OR talk from yesterday will grow. He also told me yesterday that I should go w him and try a place he thinks is wonderful. Could this be considered including me in a future plan or does it have to be bigger?

Also, and this is it, I promise, could it mean something that he used "making love" and not "sleeping with" when he spoke about being intimate or am I reading too much into things? I just figure if you leave someone because you don't love them, you avoid using the word love.

I have hope, or else I wouldn't be here and I won't give up until the D. I guess, other than advice on where to go from here, I'd like to know that I'm not just chasing a dream. I am realistic in knowing there's a possibility he won't come back. I just really don't think he's fallen out of love with me.

Thank you so much for this website and your books, they have helped me enormously getting through these past 3.5 months. I don't know what I would have done w/o them.

Confused

Hi Michele,

My question to you, you may have already answered. My wife and I have orders of protection against each other. We had an arguement and she treatened to out an o.o.p. against me which she did. So I in turn did the same. I want to know what I should do. Should I lift mine off of her as a sign of good will opening the door for her to call me?

Steve

Hi Michele,

Going to lift the orders off of her. I feel this is the right thing to do. Hope you agree.

If you've had any experience with this sit before in you work, could you please let me know how it turned out.

Thanks
Steve