Hey CM, you rang???? I am ok my friend...
How is your life going?
Ian
Hi Ian
Things are VERY good in the GAL area - have JUST got home from celebrating our DANCE success with my new dance partner = we got 3x thirds in our FIRST competition together tonight and after being put in a section higher than we expected - so we had NO expectations - to be placed was REALLY encouraging for us as we've only been dancing together for three weeeks now!!!
If you want to catch up a bit on me, you can have a peek at my past thread - no wife action (yet) BUT I am STILL standing for my marriage, regardless
It was one year of separation on the 09th November 2007, in case ya wondering
Hi, Ian. You still around? I celebrated our 15th anniversary yesterday by myself. Much better than last year's 14the anniversary!
Hey, CM.
LadyDi
Hi, S.T._I Made It,
I just looked back on CM's last thread and you asked about a scripture I paraphrased from Daniel. It is Daniel 10:12-14 where the angel said he got detained fighting the King of Persia. Does your name imply that you busted your divorce? Hope so.
C.M, You there? Thinking of you and praying for you.
LadyDi
4 Kids, where are you? I heard through the grapevine you might can help me find other standers in my area. You may email me at mccaec@yahoo.com. Be sure to put something in the topic line so I will know it is not spam. Thanks.
Lady Di
thanks LadyDi!
yes it does! and I definitely credit my savior for that! He's still got a lot of work to do in me though... I'm a tough one.
but I'm also waiting for my H's salvation, and I really thought he wouldn't be with me unless he got saved, but obviously God has other plans for that... so I truly believe someday he will since God brought us back together. Hopefully he's not 80!
S.T._I Made It!
Praise the Lord! Someone who made it. I am seeking a prayer partner. Would you be interested? My email address is mccaec@yahoo.com
LadyDi
S.T._I Made It!
Praise the Lord! Someone who made it. I am seeking a prayer partner. Would you be interested? My email address is mccaec@yahoo.com
LadyDi
ST is indeed a WONDERFUL lady AND Believer, Di
She has a HEAVENLY voice also
Keep up the GOOD fight ladies!!!
Best wishes & blessings in our Messiah
CM
Hey, CM. How's your dancing coming?
LadyDi
Hey, CM. How's your dancing coming?
LadyDi
Hiya Di
Tha dancing is good & I just completed my first competative COMPETITION on the 24th November!
We got placed third in our division so we were really chuffed (pleased).
This last weekend I did my first set of medal exams for the Latin section - managed to get in mid 80% BUT I was really disappointed as I was aiming for honours (+90%) but that's another story 
Dancing has kinda taken over my GAL in a BIG way and my trainer sees big things for my future as a dancer!!
If anyone is interested, I can post the link for our dance association, etc??
PS - did you get my email Di?
Have a blessed evening & THANKS for stopping by 
Oh, I MUST mention that I have been TRULY BLESSED by our Heavenly Father in that the young lady I dance with is a Believer also AND she invited me to Fellowship on Sunday night - probably the FIRST time since my wife walked out on the 09th November 2006...
That is so exciting! I took ballroom dance lessons early on in my separation, but did not stick with it. It is so hard for me just find time to exist - cleaning house, paying bills, working, etc. Maybe I should make the time for something like that.
I am so pleased that you are doing so well and actually seem happy. Has W had a chance to notice your accomplishments?
My H seemed interested when I took dance lessons.
Praying for you!
LadyDi
That is so exciting!
Not only is it exciting Di, but it's now "my life" as it's something I gladly do EVERY day of my life AND I get to meet with people in a GREAT environment!
If I could recommend anything for anyone needing to Get-A-Life, well BALLROOM & LATIN AMERICAN DANCING is it
My dancing partner is well aware of my situation and even invited me to fellowship with her last Sunday night, so kewl was that
I would add a small caution here "knowing" what men in general are like (sorry to all our male standers, so I'm not referring to any of you :)) - is ladies just beware of predators at dance schools - yes, they exist everywhere but they're harder to "notice" at the dance schools 
I took ballroom dance lessons early on in my separation, but did not stick with it. It is so hard for me just find time to exist - cleaning house, paying bills, working, etc. Maybe I should make the time for something like that.
Di, you'll be amazed at how one can "make time" to go dancing - as I said it's GREAT for GAL purposes and seriously, who can stay angry / mad / depressed / etc whilst listening AND dancing to MUSIC
I feel our GREAT Heavenly Father lead me to dancing for a number of reasons and I feel truly blessed by it and many of the great people I have met along the way!
Now if only my wife could join me on the dance floor I am so pleased that you are doing so well and actually seem happy.
Thanks Di, I am happy with "me" generally - I know I STILL have much to sort out personally in order to pave the pathway for my prodigal to return (as mentioned in quite a few of the RM's messages, there are / might be things blocking the return of one's spouse...
On the dance front (sorry to "harp" on it ) I've discovered some of my late Mum's talent & even though I've only been dancing for almost a year now, many people can't believe how I'm improved, etc and I also beleive this CAN be a platform to bring Glory to our Messiah
I even had the privilage of my dance partner praying for us just prior to my medal tets last weekend - very special to do that indeed
Has W had a chance to notice your accomplishments?
My H seemed interested when I took dance lessons.
Di, I'm certain she HAS heard about my dancing through the MANY pathways our Heavenly Father has provided - our mutual hairdresser + an ex neighbour who brings her son to dancing & works for the same group as my wife + one or two of my wife's work collegues whom I've danced WITH during the course of the year, etc!!
I don't know what effect it actually has had as my wife NEVER initiates contact and our last communication was an sms (text message) she sent me in August where she accused me of using her car illegally 
Praying for you!
LadyDi
Thanks Di, blessings to you
Hi Cm ... nothing to add, just wanted to say still readin along, glad the dancing is going great and just waving and saying hello
wow ladydi,
I've never really done that before. I'll email you though!
Hey CM,
Just a question. I would really like to take some ballroom dance lessons, but I totally have two left feet. Way to tall and lanky. Prior to my M with W, I begged her to take lessons so that at our reception we would look great, but she wouldn't cause she is a great "club" dancer. Ya I like the pole too, but I want the best.
How do you get involved and find it? I'm not sure where to start and I really need a beginners mind! But it looks so fun.
Thank you CM for the compliments!
That is so cool how you've delved into the dancing. There are always talents that God has given us when he made us and at some point in our lives, we learn to use them!
maybe I'll check out ballroom too. I actually think i'm a great "club" dancer, and since I'm a musician, and was a cheerleader in highschool, I think the coordination and skills wouldn't be too hard for me to pick up. I think I might feel weird dancing close to another guy though. unless he was really cool, but it's not like you can screen your partner!
Hey CM,
Just a question. I would really like to take some ballroom dance lessons, but I totally have two left feet. Way to tall and lanky. Prior to my M with W, I begged her to take lessons so that at our reception we would look great, but she wouldn't cause she is a great "club" dancer. Ya I like the pole too, but I want the best.
How do you get involved and find it? I'm not sure where to start and I really need a beginners mind! But it looks so fun.
Hiya Atlas
Thanks for the interest in the Ballroom Dancing
I don;t know which area you're from as each place seems to have different set-ups BUT I would say your first step is to get a list f dance instructors / schools in your area.
Then make SURE they teach the International Standard of Ballroom and Latin American Dancing - I note you like to do things PROPERLY, hence this suggestion
After this, see if each of the different schols offer a "try out" class which you could attend for "free" and get a feel for WHICH school and/or teachers you prefer - in my case I had a referral and it turned out really well, so I'm quite happy with where I am at the moment.
The teacher / school WILL either enhance OR decrease your liking for dancing so it's just a suggestion you find a place where you feel comfortable.
The teacher needs to make the beginners classes FUN and at the same time be able to convey the technicalities needed on a beginners class (in other words, the fun must not surpass the skill the teacher NEEDS to impart to his / he students) <---- all my opinion of course
Anyway, I trust this helps - just holler if I can help out more, or if you have other questions
Best wishes & blessings
CM
Thanks for stopping by my thread the other day, C_M.
Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Amy
S.T._I Made It!
Just dropping by. Did you ever email me? If so, I did not receive it. If you email me, put something in the subject so I will know it's you. My email may have kicked you out as spam. Sorry. Still making it, I hope.
Di
Hey, CM- don't have much time to drop by the board, but think about and pray for you daily. This time of year can be hard, but the Lord has blessed me by having H call me a couple of times and come by the house once. God does heal hurting marriages.
Blessings,
Di
yes I did email you Ladydi. but I emailed you again. you can email me to if you want. crissy_mv@cox.net
CM, hope you had a wonderful week... and what are your plans for christmas?
Thanks for stopping by my thread the other day, C_M.
Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Amy
My pleasure Amy - sorry you're going through tough times again after two years - I just wanted to show you my support in some small way
I've been around for a year now and it's hard to believe BUT my Faith is stronger than it was back then too - soooooooooo MUCH stronger & I've learned a great deal from you fine Ladies here @DB & I really feel BLESSED to have "met" all of you although it could have been under better circumstances!!
I apologise for not having any advice for you as such but I firmly believe there are times when our Heavenly Father has led me to your (and others) threads where I've been able to offer Scriptural Encouragement by posting various "Dailys" & other uplifting Devotionals - ultimately Scripture says it better than I can or ever could
Bless you Amy & stay steadfast in HIM
CM
CM, Just wanted to wish you a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. May 2008 bring you good health, happiness and love, especially from your W. ~PH
Hi, C_M!
How are you doing? What are your Christmas/New years plans?
Merry xmas CM....
Glad to read about the dancing. It's great you found something you can get so involved in.
Anyway, here is to a great 2008 for us all....
Take care....
Ian
Thank you CM for the compliments!
Anytime ST - you're most welcome That is so cool how you've delved into the dancing. There are always talents that God has given us when he made us and at some point in our lives, we learn to use them!
Yes indeed - at times it feels as if I'm just using it as an "escape" to forget about everything that's (NOT) happening right now - if you know what I mean??
The last few months I've received compliments on how my dancing has improved on a weekly basis 
so I guess my late Mum's Genes are beginning to show now maybe I'll check out ballroom too. I actually think i'm a great "club" dancer, and since I'm a musician, and was a cheerleader in highschool, I think the coordination and skills wouldn't be too hard for me to pick up. I think I might feel weird dancing close to another guy though. unless he was really cool, but it's not like you can screen your partner!
Don't be fooled by the apparent easy looking-ness of Ballroom & Latin American Dancing, ST
The basics are "easy" but as you progress, building on those basics becomes more apparent and IF there are steps you've not paid attention to VERY early on, well - it becomes quite difficult to undo bad habits
If you're a "club dancer" then you'll probably gavitate towards the atin side of dancing but make no mistake it's ALL quite technical IF you want to do it properly
Regarding partering - well, again f there's someone you end up with whom you feel is crossing your boundaries, you can ask your trainer / teacher for someone else!
The Rumba is quite an "intimate" dance once you reach more advanced levels and so is the Spanish Tango <---- VERY where the basic "hold" is extremely close so you need to have a partner you can trust (in my humble opinion).
This might sound strange, but also bear in mind the more personal thigs which are highlighted during Ballroom Dancing merely due to the close proximity of your dance partner - breath & body "odour" come to mind here
Try to find a studio who teaches the International Syllabus though
Best wishe & blessings
CM
Hey, CM- don't have much time to drop by the board, but think about and pray for you daily. This time of year can be hard, but the Lord has blessed me by having H call me a couple of times and come by the house once. God does heal hurting marriages.
Blessings,
Di
Thanks for dropping by, Di
Well, it's nearing "that" time of the year AGAIN & I really thought things would have moved towards some type of reconciliation by now...
I've had zero contact from my wife since +/- 11th August 2007 in the form of a text message written about in this thread HERE
I wonder if New Year's Eve would be appropriate for some contact - a text message or something like that
One thing I AM doing with immediate effect is to cut ties with "our" current hairdresser as it's a pipeline directly to my wife - I dunno, in my efforts to get a life, I still get this feeling too much of what I do gets back to my wife & thus quells her curiousity
In that vein, I inadvertently got some "news" about my wife last week - a mutual aquaintance & I were talking about DANCING (duh) and she mentioned that most girls LIKE men who dance, but it was unfortunate that my wife was not one of those girls!!
Now to me that's odd; firstly as this person said she would not act as a go-between (my wife had come to see her about 2 months back and she got the impression my wife was attempting to use her as a "messenger") and 2ndly, my wife absolutely LOVED dancing and we had planned on going to classes TOGETHER (someday).
Ok, so not sure if this was an "accidental slip" from this lady OR if it was on purpose for some reason?
One thing I know, this lady said to me "When are you goiing to get it? I hope you are moving on with your life"
I asked her not to get into that as she knew where I "stood" ----> SHE does NOT get it that I'm standing for my marriage, sigh
Anyways, just a few thoughts from little 'ol me at 03h15 here... feel free to add your comments
I pray for reconciliation daily
CM,
In that vein, I inadvertently got some "news" about my wife last week - a mutual acquaintance & I were talking about DANCING (duh) and she mentioned that most girls LIKE men who dance, but it was unfortunate that my wife was not one of those girls!!
Now to me that's odd; firstly as this person said she would not act as ago-between (my wife had come to see her about 2 months back and she got the impression my wife was attempting to use her as a "messenger") and 2ndly, my wife absolutely LOVED dancing and we had planned on going to classes TOGETHER (someday).
Ok, so not sure if this was an "accidental slip" from this lady OR if it was on purpose for some reason?
One thing I know, this lady said to me "When are you going to get it? I hope you are moving on with your life"
I asked her not to get into that as she knew where I "stood" ----> SHE does NOT get it that I'm standing for my marriage, sigh
This woman is NOT your friend. And there was nothing "accidental" about her comments. Who knows what her true agenda is...but it is not helpful or respectful to you or your stand for your marriage. And she is certainly NOT speaking for your wife! Shake her off!
She is one of "Satan's agents." I don't mean she is evil. Just that Satan can and does use anyone and all of us for his purposes -- usually unknown to the person -- to do his bidding.
Her comments about
"When are you going to get it? I hope you are moving on with your life." should send up huge red flags for you. Anytime -- anywhere -- anyone -- ever says anything like that...instantly know it is Satan speaking through them.
Never engage with these people. Just calmly reply,
"Thank you for thinking of me. I am doing quite well and I am on the path that God is leading me to be on."NEVER ever ever tell anyone who is not like-minded of your "stand." This is not wise. Never engage, never explain, never defend. Instead just deflect.
One thing I AM doing with immediate effect is to cut ties with "our" current hairdresser as it's a pipeline directly to my wife - I dunno, in my efforts to get a life, I still get this feeling too much of what I do gets back to my wife & thus quells her curiosity
As to breaking off with the hairdresser that you and your wife share...I have mixed feelings on this. I would only do this
if you feel God is leading you to do this. Otherwise you may be interfering in a conduit that God wants you to have -- and that He has put in place for His own reasons.Nothing in what you posted leads me to see that God wants you to close down this channel of communication. Instead it just sounds like YOU are trying to manipulate and control this situation for your own purposes. And the truth is that you can't force anything.
Going to the same hairdresser may or may not be quelling your W's curiosity. You don't know this.
And how do you possibly know what God may be using this channel for? You don't.
No matter what you do to try and manipulate and control a situation -- if it isn't on God's agenda...it isn't going to work out as you hope. Pray on this before you act.
I would think you are clever enough to keep this channel of communication open and to carefully use it to your advantage. I don't believe in coincidences -- so I have to believe it is a holy channel.
But you should become very mysterious when you're there. Act very happy and be very non-specific -- so that you control what information will possibly get back to your W.
And BTW, is it possible that this woman who hopes your moving on with your life...may hope you'll "move on" in HER direction?? Just a thought! Otherwise she is just a "wooden spoon" trying to stir up trouble!
Good luck!
Summer
Summer, thanks for your kind reply & the MANY thought provoking references you've given me
I have been toying with the idea of contacting my wife tonight to wish her for New Year - just a quick call to ask her how she is & wish her - short and sweet!
Good or bad idea??
CM,
Since I don't know enough of your story yet -- the idea of a phone call gives me pause. When did you last have an in person visit, a phone call or any kind of contact?? And how did she react? What is the tenor of your relationship now? Are you two "friends" and on cordial friendly terms??
If you have a nice relationship with her -- and your in person or phone calls go well -- then I say GO FOR IT!!
But, if she isn't thrilled with in person or phone calls with you -- then I think sending her an email or some other breezy contact is a better choice and quite fine.
I think as long as you haven't been in some constant pursuit of her -- using any and all excuses to contact her -- then a New Years wish is lovely.
Sometimes I think we all over think things. We all should work towards coming to a place where we just treat and deal with our spouses as we do any other "friend."
Again, it really depends on if your overtures of friendship are well received.
But I always err on the side of kindness. And I think wishing someone you love a Happy New Year is loving and kind.
Hope this helps!
And BTW...HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU!!
just wanted to say happy new year,
and thank you for all the advice on dancing! it will take a lot of courage for me to do any of it, but I hope someday I will.
I'll read the rest later, I have to go now, but wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you!
wow summer, you are so confident! I am never so confident in my advice. you had great things to say, and definitely Godly things!
hope your doing well CM
CM,
I want to wish ALL of you here the richest blessings form ABOVE and ultimately to have our marriages restored - also a HUGE thanks to those of you who have contributed on my threads so unslefishly!!
Let's STAND for our Marriages in FAITH and keep our eyes upon our Heavenly Father DESPITE what the world tells and/ or says to us
Thank you CM for your kind words and wishes. BTW, how's the dancing going? I need to get back into it and plan to starting this Tue. ~PH
WOW, CM, you're getting a lot of good advice here. Summer, you are awesome! You sound like a counselor. I think she is right, CM, pray for God's guidance about changing hairdressers. God may be using that to keep the lines of communication open.
C.M., did you contact your w on New Year's Eve? I called my h on New Year's Day. He didn't answer, so I left a voice mail. The next day, he came over needing a ladder. He's been gone for over a year and not needed a the ladder and he wasn't even going to use it that day. I pray constantly that God will give my h some little excuse to call or contact me. Over the past 3 weeks, he's called about a crockpot, a spoon, a ladder and a birth certificate. I think when we get back together, I'll write a book with that as the title. LOL
I'm praying that the Holy Spirit will give your wife some little reason to call or contact you.
God's blessings,
Ladydi
Hey, CM. Are you ok?
Praying for you.
LadyDi
CM,
This woman is NOT your friend. And there was nothing "accidental" about her comments. Who knows what her true agenda is...but it is not helpful or respectful to you or your stand for your marriage. And she is certainly NOT speaking for your wife! Shake her off!
She is one of "Satan's agents." I don't mean she is evil. Just that Satan can and does use anyone and all of us for his purposes -- usually unknown to the person -- to do his bidding.
Her comments about
"When are you going to get it? I hope you are moving on with your life." should send up huge red flags for you. Anytime -- anywhere -- anyone -- ever says anything like that...instantly know it is Satan speaking through them.
Never engage with these people. Just calmly reply,
"Thank you for thinking of me. I am doing quite well and I am on the path that God is leading me to be on."NEVER ever ever tell anyone who is not like-minded of your "stand." This is not wise. Never engage, never explain, never defend. Instead just deflect.
Summer, thank you for your guidance in this matter & my apologies for taking so long to respond
I have been digesting all you have said here & it is nigh time I STOP engaging these naysayers as you so rightly put!! As to breaking off with the hairdresser that you and your wife share...I have mixed feelings on this. I would only do this
if you feel God is leading you to do this. Otherwise you may be interfering in a conduit that God wants you to have -- and that He has put in place for His own reasons.Nothing in what you posted leads me to see that God wants you to close down this channel of communication. Instead it just sounds like YOU are trying to manipulate and control this situation for your own purposes. And the truth is that you can't force anything.
Going to the same hairdresser may or may not be quelling your W's curiosity. You don't know this.
And how do you possibly know what God may be using this channel for? You don't.
No matter what you do to try and manipulate and control a situation -- if it isn't on God's agenda...it isn't going to work out as you hope. Pray on this before you act.
I would think you are clever enough to keep this channel of communication open and to carefully use it to your advantage. I don't believe in coincidences -- so I have to believe it is a holy channel.
But you should become very mysterious when you're there. Act very happy and be very non-specific -- so that you control what information will possibly get back to your W.
Summer, it's great to have you in my "camp" as I was soooooooo wanting to shake things up a tad by closing down this relationship with our mutual hairresser
Your reply confirmed that I need to keep this channel open until I am led otherwise And BTW, is it possible that this woman who hopes your moving on with your life...may hope you'll "move on" in HER direction?? Just a thought! Otherwise she is just a "wooden spoon" trying to stir up trouble!
This lady has known my wife & I for a LONG time & she is considerably older than I am and she has never once made a pass at me - we have a friendship & I've trusted her with everything I've told her
She knows pretty much everything that is going on in my life as I tend to update her every other week or so...
This lady has told me that she is not prepared to be a go-between my wife & I and IF / WHEN my wife wants to communicate something to me then my wife should do that directly ----> I remember her words going something like "I don't want to be used as a canvas..."
She seems adament my wife will not be coming home, ever!!
Good luck!
Summer
Thank you for your kind words & I pray you will be able to hang around my threads until my marriage IS restored
CM,
Since I don't know enough of your story yet -- the idea of a phone call gives me pause. When did you last have an in person visit, a phone call or any kind of contact?? And how did she react? What is the tenor of your relationship now? Are you two "friends" and on cordial friendly terms??
Summer, the last time we spoke was way back on 23rd May HERE is the actual transcript
So we have not had any verbal contact since then & subsequent to that exchange, my wife sent me quite an qaggressive sms (text message) on the 11th August 2207 on the day of my birthday party HERE is the actual transcript If you have a nice relationship with her -- and your in person or phone calls go well -- then I say GO FOR IT!!
But, if she isn't thrilled with in person or phone calls with you -- then I think sending her an email or some other breezy contact is a better choice and quite fine.
I think as long as you haven't been in some constant pursuit of her -- using any and all excuses to contact her -- then a New Years wish is lovely.
As you can see, I've backed off COMPLETELY since I emailed her the birthday party invite in August 2007 & have not heard a peep from her since then either Sometimes I think we all over think things. We all should work towards coming to a place where we just treat and deal with our spouses as we do any other "friend."
She appears to want nothing to do with me so that makes it hard to deal with - it's as if I do not exist Again, it really depends on if your overtures of friendship are well received.
But I always err on the side of kindness. And I think wishing someone you love a Happy New Year is loving and kind.
Hope this helps!
And BTW...HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU!!
And to you too summer PLUS everyone else here who has been so KIND towards me
Happy New Year! Thank you trip - glad to see you're still around
A very BLESSED 2008 to you as well!!
just wanted to say happy new year,
thank you ST & a GREAT one to you & yours too (TWO) and thank you for all the advice on dancing! it will take a lot of courage for me to do any of it, but I hope someday I will.
My pleasure - I do pray it's sound advice - merely my humble perspective from my experiences over the last year!
It ocurred to me today, that having a "serious" dance parter is very much like a relationship - trust, communcation, energy & kindness is needed in order for the partnership to prosper I'll read the rest later, I have to go now, but wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you!
ST, thank you & just know you;re never far from my thoughts & prayers too
Be blessed & be a blessing
CM,
Well...from reviewing the links -- I can tell you to a certainty -- that the one thing your W is NOT...is indifferent to you!
And, as I am famous for explaining on DB...the opposite of love is NOT hate -- it is indifference.
So while it may not seem like much -- take heart! She still feels PASSION about you.
And as much as she may wish she was indifferent about you...she is not.
Interesting...isn't it??
Hey CM, I went to Charleston class tonight. It was great. I do need to relax more when dancing and take it a little less seriously. I think it's that I'm scared of not following correctly. Sometimes the leads get upset when the follow gets it wrong.... I nearly didn't make it home because my car ran out of windshield washer fluid and I was driving with a very dirty (opague) windshield!!
WOW, CM, you're getting a lot of good advice here. Summer, you are awesome! You sound like a counselor. I think she is right, CM, pray for God's guidance about changing hairdressers. God may be using that to keep the lines of communication open.
Well, based on those comments from SUMMER and not receiving a clear lead from the Spirit in terms of terminating all contact points, I've remained with my (our) hairdresser C.M., did you contact your w on New Year's Eve? I called my h on New Year's Day. He didn't answer, so I left a voice mail. The next day, he came over needing a ladder. He's been gone for over a year and not needed a the ladder and he wasn't even going to use it that day. I pray constantly that God will give my h some little excuse to call or contact me. Over the past 3 weeks, he's called about a crockpot, a spoon, a ladder and a birth certificate. I think when we get back together, I'll write a book with that as the title. LOL
Well, you beat me to it Di - YES, I did "try" and contact my wife on New Year's eve around 22h52 but it went to voicemail even though I hid my caller ID - she has not responded, but something happned today that I will expound later... I'm praying that the Holy Spirit will give your wife some little reason to call or contact you.
God's blessings,
Ladydi
Thanks & BLESS you for your prayers Di - HE DOES work behind the mountain, I'm sure
CM,
Well...from reviewing the links -- I can tell you to a certainty -- that the one thing your W is NOT...is indifferent to you!
And, as I am famous for explaining on DB...
the opposite of love is NOT hate -- it is indifference.So while it may not seem like much -- take heart! She still feels PASSION about you.
And as much as she may wish she was indifferent about you...she is not.
Interesting...isn't it??
SUMMER, thanks for this info too - I've felt this for quite a while also!
My wife HAS exhibited a fair bit of agression towards me - via her legal counsel & various sms's (text messages)...
Do you think you might find the time to go through all of my threads eventually - I would be most grateful Here's my HUGE update for today and I was going to add some other stuff which happened about a week ago - to do with "that" lady who gives me hints about my wife (despite her saying this is something she would not do - be an agent for my wife in other words).
Ok, so here is is people - it's a BIGGIE (for me anyways
)
I bumped into my WIFE today today unexpectedly and experienced her frustration & anger for me - I was calm and non judgmental as far as I remember - I was in our local supermarket where we BOTH used to shop together when I saw her coming down the aisle towards me.
I took me a bit by surprise & I moved towards the dairy section and she came around the corner straight at me...yikes!
She asked me "Why is this taking so long" referring to the divorce proceedings SHE instituted the DAY she left me and all I replied was "I thought you would know by now" as I did not want to say anything to enforce her guilt, etc.
EDITED: after I said the above, she paused for a "fraction" and said: "You know it's been a year already??"
She asked me why I had phoned my lawyer (not sure how she came by this knowledge) and I said it had nothing to do with our "case" but that it was about something "else" - my lawyer had called looking for a generator (the business I'm in) and I merely returned her call - I did not let my wife know what the call was about though...
I asked if she was well & she said she was "very well" although she kinda looked hot & bothered - I ALSO asked her if she got my message (the voice mail I left her on New Year) and she said she had no idea why I would want to wish her well for 2008...
Her parting words were "I'll be happy when I get this divorce" and then she turned her back on me & walked off...
She seemed "fairly calm" throughout this small exchange between us, but somehow there were undertones of anger coming through (I think) so perhaps this is because 14 months later she is no closer to being divorced than she was the day she walked out?
I pray this interaction has planted some seeds towards reconciliation somehow
Best wishes & blessings
CM
PLEASE continue praying for US to be restored in all HIS glory
CM,
Do you think you might find the time to go through all of my threads eventually - I would be most grateful.
I wish I had the time to read through 42 PAGES -- a year's worth of your posts -- but alas I don't.
But, if you write up of an overview and outline for me -- I'd be happy to read a summary of your situation to date!
But, if you write up of an overview and outline for me -- I'd be happy to read a summary of your situation to date!
Thanks SUMMER - here's a humble attempt at summarising
My life (very briefly though):
· My sister died one day after giving birth to her daughter on 17th May 1990
· I lost "interest" in my faith and went on a "spree" which lasted until I met my wife_to_be in August 1995
· We got engaged within two weeks of meeting each other & got married on 18th May 1996
· My Dad passed away on 20th August 1996.
· My Mum bought a house (for me) and came to live with us in November 2000
· In February 2000 my Mum was diagnosed with 3rd stage ovarian cancer
· My Mum passed away on 30th September 2002
· My wife left me briefly for a week in December 2003 - transport issues and a few other things which were resolved during a few counseling sessions.
· My wife's Dad passed away on 13th August 2004
· Our dearest kitty gets sick in July 2006 and between September & November 2006 I take over "palliative care" for her in an attempt to save her - I get a bit frantic about the whole thing as I was so desperate to save her.
· My wife comes home on 09th November 2006 and out of the blue announces her intention to divorce me & leaves for her mother's house the same night.
· On 16th November 2006, our little kitty passes away & an hour later I receive the court papers via the Sherriff for our divorce
· No physical or verbal contact & my wife chooses emails to gradually cut me out of her life - cancellation of medical aid, car insurance, credit card debt discussions, etc.
· In December 2006 my wife returns the car I gave her as a gift in December 2003 as a result of her "transport issues"
· Later that month she sends me a fax with a list furniture demands.
· I use this as an opportunity to make verbal contact & finally on the 10th January 2007 we meet over coffee to discuss her list.
· My wife arrives on 13th January 2007 to collect the bulk of the items requested - she declines my offer to see our kitties
· My wife returns on 14th January 2007 to go through some of her personal effects.
· Both of the above interactions seemed fairly positive according to me!
· In late January 2007 I contact my wife to feel her out & invite her to coffee & I get turned down flatly.
· A few days later, my wife cuts off my access to our bond (mortgage) which we had used as bridging finance for the business, etc - I contact her & she is adamant the account is "frozen" despite the implications for my business
· In mid February 2007, my wife institutes further legal proceedings & threatens to sell my house from under me (the house was put in her name for business reasons).
· I defend with a plea & counterclaim (lawyer advises me to file a writ of divorce also to protect the house
)
· My wife visits my best friends mother (just prior to my nieces' visit from the UK on 04th April 2007 - this niece being my late sisters daughter) - I had sent my wife an email informing her about this visit & invited her to make contact if she so wished.
· In April 2007, my wife files another legal uppercut asking for interim maintenance
AND subsequently visits my best friend to apparently make it clear she is adamant on a divorce!
· No verbal contact between us since 24th January 2007
· Court hearing on 29th May 2007 resulted in me being ordered to pay interim maintenance of R2 500-00 per month to my wife (this is the last time we "saw" each other - she did not even acknowledge me on the day although when she walked out of the courthouse she gave me a curious look...) and at this point she even wanted to conclude the divorce on this day = but I refused to grant her a divorce.
PART 2:
I have not heard from my wife since the 11th August and I have no idea what she is doing with her life, yet I continue praying for restoration every day and living a life which a husband should.
The 11th August interaction was an sms (text message) from her in which she said "I have just seen you in the car again! HOW DARE YOU! IT IS ILLEGAL!! You have 3 weeks for the transfer & I want a copy of the papers"
This was over the car SHE had returned to me in November last year when she said "I thought you might need the car" - she subsequently went out and bought a BRAND NEW car and put this in her expense claim against me
Interestingly enough and just to explain to you - the car she returned was one I bought for her & put in her name BUT I paid all the insurance, licensing, etc AND I am one of the nominated drivers so I'm not sure why she claimed my use of the car was "illegal" also considering she had GIVEN the car back to me??
During the "transfer process" in August, my wife strangely claimed that she did not even OWN a car - quite confusing as I saw her IN her new car in January 2007 when she came to the house to discuss what furniture she needed for her new flat??
I'm striving to be that spiritual leader she desires regardless of what the WORLD is saying – even yesterday a good friend said "When are you finally going to get it? Are you moving on with your life?"
It seems satan knows where & when to strike as it brought out feelings of despondency in me even though I told the person concerned "You know where I stand" and all I got was a shrug in return!
I hear about MANY restoration stories via the Steinkamps daily messages & emails – not many people OR Churches are well versed in Marriage Reconciliation and it seems such a foreign concept to them - I do get plenty of unbelieving looks when I reaffirm my commitment to my marriage being restored.
It's "hard" to believe so much time has gone by, not only since our separation but also since I have had meaningful contact with my wife - the last time we "sat" down together was on the 10th January 2007 or so & the last time we were in the same room together was our court meeting in April/May in 2007.
All of her interactions since collecting the furniture she wanted in January have been filled with "aggression" and a desire to extract money, etc from me and she even tried to get my house sold (My late Mum & I had the title deed put in her name to protect US financially in case my business went belly up & therefore the house would be protected) out from under me.
My wife took me to court using a loophole in the law where she was allowed to claim interim maintenance from me even though we do not have children - my wife claimed this was to FORCE me to divorce her as her logic dictated I would much rather divorce her than pay her maintenance every month!
My wife's list of "expenses" were somewhat inflated and the lawyers influence could again be seen at play during the submission of her court documents.
Her shortfall claim was for R 4 700-00 per month and even though she earns better than I do, we came against a judge (whom according to my legal counsel) would NOT minimise my wife's claim & thus they suggested I try to settle out of court even though our "legal argument" against my wife was quite strong.
As a result since around June I have been paying my wife R2 500-00 per month AND her legal fees of R 500-00 per month (R 5 000-00 court fees divided into 10 payments).
Our Heavenly Father has provided me with the means to pay this amount every month even though I have taken a loan to help with my cash flow for the business – my wife cut off my access to our home loan re-advance facilities in January 2007 which WE had always used to refinance house expenses, business bridging finance etc!
I have seen a new side to my wife this past year - one where she has cut me off completely and not even initiated ANY contact other than for "business" reasons.
Her friend continues to reside in the granny flat on our property - an OLDER lady (by about 20 years) who also continues to interact with my wife (on at least a weekly basis as far as I know) and whom herself is a THRICE divorcee
I have been using a mutual hairdresser (also does work on on my wife's hair) who EMPHATICALLY promised to give me news on my wife this time last year but whom I've subsequently discovered was only offering me lip service in this regard.
I do not receive any news about my wife from ANY sources, but I know my dancing news reaches my wife due to the interactions I've had with some of her work colleagues (have danced with one or two of them).
I have not even bumped into my wife anywhere since our separation on the 09th November 2006 - I have seen her once or twice in the car going by, but nothing in person (walking, etc) - I understand our Heavenly Father might be allowing this situation of non contact & no news of my wife for my own "protection" so I have not made any enquiries as to her whereabouts, etc even though this has been VERY tempting at times
I continue to love my wife and honour our Wedding Vows, yet I live "as” a single person without my wife' physical presence - my own concern and prayer is not to become too comfortable with this single lifestyle and thus end up being complacent about my Marriage Restoration.
I have no "clear" action plan and still await leading by the Holy Spirit in this area – I pray for a breakthrough and for signs that my wife wants to return to this marriage so we can glorify our Father by showing the world what is possible if we have faith and trust in Him
Please pray for us (I know you do already) as I would be lying if I said I have not experienced weariness & extreme loneliness over this time of separation & as I can see no "positive movement" this is quite demoralising for me even though I KNOW God can work (and probably IS) behind the mountain
My life is "good" without my wife in that I have been blessed with supportive & Godly friends, success with my dancing, a great new Christian Dance partner, good health and even some business growth to enable me to start paying back the debt I incurred from all the legal court fees in defending myself against my wife. Ok, now just before my "BIG" news, I had another interaction with the lady who likes to "advise" me - the same one =who said "When Are you going to move on with your life - remember her?
Well, about two weeks ago I was getting some things from her shop when she said some rather startling things (remember also, she said she would NOT be acting as a "go-between" as my wife had previously visited her & communicated "something" to her whcih this lady felt my wife should have said directly to me rather) - now bearing this in mind, some of these "startling things" came through thus:
- were were chatting about dancing and she casually mentioned that 95% of ladys liked men who knew how to dance BUT my wife was not one of them
- this lady also said IF my wife comes back I would have to give up my dancing & that I would only have this year left (to dance)
- she closed off by saying "be careful what you wish for"
To me, it seem she had spoken with my wife very recently and my wife MUST have said something about IF she comes home otherwise, why the mention about my dancing??
PART 3:
Here's my HUGE update for today and I was going to add some other stuff which happened about a week ago - to do with "that" lady who gives me hints about my wife (despite her saying this is something she would not do - be an agent for my wife in other words).
Ok, so here is is people - it's a BIGGIE (for me anyways )
I bumped into my WIFE today today unexpectedly and experienced her frustration & anger for me - I was calm and non judgmental as far as I remember - I was in our local supermarket where we BOTH used to shop together when I saw her coming down the aisle towards me.
I took me a bit by surprise & I moved towards the dairy section and she came around the corner straight at me...yikes!
She asked me "Why is this taking so long" referring to the divorce proceedings SHE instituted the DAY she left me and all I replied was "I thought you would know by now" as I did not want to say anything to enforce her guilt, etc.
After I said the above, she paused for a "fraction" and said: "It's been a year already??"
She asked me why I had phoned my lawyer (not sure how she came by this knowledge) and I said it had nothing to do with our "case" but that it was about something "else" - my lawyer had called looking for a generator (the business I'm in) and I merely returned her call - I did not let my wife know what the call was about though...
I asked if she was well & she said she was "very well" although she kinda looked hot & bothered - I ALSO asked her if she got my message (the voice mail I left her on New Year) and she said she had no idea why I would want to wish her well for 2008...
Her parting words were "I'll be happy when I get this divorce" and then she turned her back on me & walked off...
She seemed "fairly calm" throughout this small exchange between us, but somehow there were undertones of anger coming through (I think) so perhaps this is because 14 months later she is no closer to being divorced than she was the day she walked out?
I pray this interaction has planted some seeds towards reconciliation somehow
Best wishes & blessings
CM
PLEASE continue praying for US to be restored in all HIS glory
Hang in there man, God is good.
Galatians 6:
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
N.
CM,
Thanks for the summary!
Clearly you both suffered many important losses and had to handle much challenge from 1996 - 2004 -- and that had to have deeply impacted you and your W -- both as individuals and as a working unit as a couple. Your "norm" was always fraught with drama of one sort or another.
But there seems to be "something" missing from 2004 to when it all fell apart in 2006.
It was during this time span of relative calm after the storm when "something" played out.
And it is vital that you figure this out b/c your answers lie in whatever played out from 2004 forward. While the genesis of the marriage deteriorating may have begun prior to 2004 -- the death knoll rang after 2004.
Perhaps you'd both learned to function as independents within the confines of the marriage -- and then when the crisis and challenges ended -- you could no longer meld back into working as a couple.
Or perhaps your partnership works best with a shared goal or challenge to be met -- such as all that you had to deal with between 1996 - 2004.
But clearly "something" happened or changed once the storms of life calmed down.
And what do you see as YOUR part in the breakdown of the marriage?
Your wife is clearly very VERY angry at you for "some" reason. And I believe you do know where it stems from.
If she was answering the question...what would she say was your role in the breakdown of your marriage? What are her main complaints?
Also, how old are you and your wife? I wonder if that plays into this at all too.
- were were chatting about dancing and she casually mentioned that 95% of ladys liked men who knew how to dance BUT my wife was not one of them
- this lady also said IF my wife comes back I would have to give up my dancing & that I would only have this year left (to dance)
- she closed off by saying "be careful what you wish for"
All I can say is...VERY strange.
Why does she think your wife doesn't like men who dance?? Is that true to your knowledge? Is there more to this than you've explained? For instance, did your W ever think partner dancing was inappropriate for a married man? Was jealousy or flirtatious behavior on your part -- innocent and harmless or not -- an issue during your marriage?
As to "Standing" vs standing in the way of allowing a spouse to get the divorce they want...scripture says we should follow the lead of the father in the story of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32).
If someone wants to leave we should let them go with love. We are not to stand in their way.
Standing in the way of the WAS -- continuing to create blocks -- dragging things out -- is not scriptural nor smart. All it does is create a "prisoner mentality" which is not conducive to restoration.
It generates an even stronger desire for the WAS to want to go -- and creates enormous hostility and resentment towards the LBS -- whose actions are actually selfish in both reality and perception.
While the "Stander" should do NOTHING to instigate the divorce or separation -- nor to speed it along or force the situation -- they should not ever stand in the way of their spouse leaving -- or hinder their efforts to get the divorce.
They should protect themselves financially and in all other ways -- but ultimately it ironically does not serve reconciliation or restoration to prolong the divorce process.
Most, if not all, restored marriages happened b/c the LBS finally let go and accepted the situation with grace -- and thus created the space for a restoration.
If the WAS has to expend all their energy in conflict constantly fighting the LBS for their freedom -- there is no room for God to act.
I sense enormous hostility on your W's part. Which means she is feeling trapped and resentful. Is there anything you can do to remedy this?
Anyway...food for thought. You need to pray on it.
CM, Your summary really helped. Yes, it does seem that your wife is very angry and left in anger. Did she ever say why she wanted out? Have you prayed about what your next steps are to be? Is it time for an appropriate 180? I wonder what she'd do if you actually granted her the divorce? I wonder if she'd decide she doesn't want it after all!!
Will pray for you! Wow, you guys got engagad even sooner than me and my H...
just stoppin by to send my (((cm))))
Summer had some really good insight. I know that was what God had wanted from me, to let my H go and if he were to come back, then that was God's will at work. Taking from Paul when he said, if you unsaved spouse wants to stay married, then stay with him, but if he wants to go, then let him leave, how do you know that you will save him?" something like that.
Definitely something to pray about CM. I know it's probably against every peice of your body, but granting W what she wants, doesn't mean your not trying to save your M anymore, and it's more...you still believe in your M, "let no man break what I have bound together", and you are giving it all to God to allow him to work and fix it, not you, cause it's HIS job.
and yes, it is rather strange how much anger W has for you. well, not so much strange, as sad.
obviously, Satan is really trying to work hard to keep her out of God's hands.
One thing that has struck me is that W left all the same day and practically served papers the same day. This really tells me that she had been D from you in her mind for a very long time.
I am so glad though that you chose to rely on God and not on man, because God does move mountains!
Thanks for the visit ST & my apologies for not visiting your thread, but know I have been following it
You might find this interesting as I came across this the other day after your comment about "let the unbeliever go"
Restore the Lock in Wedlock
This study will show the permanence of marriage as Yahweh designed it, with the hope of breaking today's cycle of broken homes. Our purpose is not to vilify those who are divorced, but to uphold the sanctity of marriage. Yahweh Himself ordained marriage and family as the fundamental social institution.
While some consider it a secular institution, Scripture teaches that marriage is a sacred union that Yahweh himself ordained at the very creation of man and woman. This fundamental institution has served society well for thousands of years.
But since the 1970s marriage has come under attack like nothing in history. As it functions today, the family institution is weak and no longer provides stability and a sense of well-being to millions of children. The undermining of the moral framework sustaining marriage and family has teamed up with an assault on Biblical faith, leading to even shakier marital unions and assisting in their unprecedented failure.
The root problem is that human wants and priorities have usurped Biblical standards in a majority of homes. True fear and respect of Yahweh are rare. An honest and zealous pursuit of his will is even more rare.
A growing number of disillusioned ministers are refusing to perform weddings out of sheer frustration with the brevity of today's marriage unions. "I marry them one week and the next week they want a divorce," a pastor lamented.
While the phrase "until death do you part" and Yahshua's words, "let no man put asunder" are repeated in wedding after wedding, the reality is that these words are considered mostly ritualistic and have little holding power today when marriage-threatening problems arise between couples. Rather than remembering their solemn vows and working through the difficulty, couples at risk are much more willing to follow the advice of a marriage counselor suggesting they just call it quits.
One major cause of broken unions is that many modern marriages are preceded by cohabitation, which statistics reveal increases the likelihood of a future breakup by 50 percent. Getting married today is more like going steady: if it isn't working, give it up and try again with someone else.
The stigma surrounding divorce is mostly gone. A century ago only 7 percent of Americans were divorced; today a staggering 60 percent of marriages fail, triple the rate of 1960. Half of all weddings now involve the remarriage of at least one spouse.
According to 2000 census data, since 1950 the rate of married couples in households has declined by nearly 30 percent..
Married couples now make up only half of all households.
Meanwhile, the number of unmarried partners living together has risen from 523,000 in 1970 to approximately 4.9 million in 2000.
Suffer the Children
The epidemic of fractured families is a strong contributing factor to the failure of our society to produce well-adjusted and balanced children. That consequence, more than any other, will impact future of society itself. The children of broken families suffer the most, thrown into an emotional free-fall when dad and mom call it quits. Consider for a moment the cost paid by these innocents:
Nearly one-third of all children today are born out of wedlock, and more than half of U.S. children will spend all or part of their childhood in a broken family. The number of children living with mothers who have never married increased to 36 percent in 1996, up from 7 percent in 1970, according to the Center for Law and Social Policy. A child raised by a single mother is seven times more likely to live in poverty than a child raised by both biological parents. Over 1 million children each year experience their parents' divorce; a total of 15.8 million children are now living with a single parent. The consequences are staggering:
·25% of those children will be high school drop-outs.
·40% need psychological help.
·65% never build a good post-divorce relationship with their fathers.
·30% never build a good post-divorce relationship with their mothers.
Compared to those who have grown up with both parents in the home, adult children of divorce are 60 percent more likely to have problems in their own marriage. This last fact is the cycle that must be broken if there is going to be any hope for the family and society itself.
The "lock" is missing in wedlock and it is time to put it back in. Almighty Yahweh takes vows very seriously, and the vow joining husband and wife in marriage lies at the very core of the family as Yahweh designed it. To violate this contract is called in Scripture a sin against Yahweh the Creator Himself.
Ultimate success in marriage hinges on the proper attitude and understanding that couples share going into it. Few couples are given marriage counseling before they go to the altar. If both spouses fail to grasp the gravity of their commitment and don't enter it with full resolve to make it work - whatever may come - then the probability is high that their marriage will eventually implode from the inevitable strains that test every marriage (Matt. 12:25).
From the beginning Yahweh created marriage between one man and one woman (Gen. 2:22). This union of male and female is the only institution that Yahweh's Word allows. At the creation of Adam and Eve the concept of one flesh was established. "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh." (Gen. 2:23).
From the beginning Yahweh made one man and one woman who complement each other perfectly in marriage.
From the start Yahweh excluded same-sex unions. Activists pushing for homosexual marriage seek to revolutionize our entire culture by breaking the backbone of society itself - the traditional man-woman family. The family should be where moral values are taught and engendered, but if the family can be redefined to include same-sex couples, then its values can be redefined and altered as well. Moral restraints lose their impact when the forbidden is being openly practiced daily.
When two people commit to marriage they are no longer two but one. The greatest unifying force between a husband and wife is in their faith. Since Yahweh commands loyalty to Him above all (Acts 5:29), both people considering marriage are to be believers. If after marriage Yahweh calls only one spouse into His Truth then the believing mate should place Yahweh first while secondarily striving to please his or her spouse, 1 Corinthians 7:12-14.
All Unions Need a Leader
An important key for a successful marriage is the understanding of the spousal roles: "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Messiah; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of the Messiah is Elohim" (1Cor. 11:3).
The same hierarchy that exists between Father and Son also exists between husband and wife.
From the beginning Yahweh established this relationship when He told Eve: "-and your desire shall be to your husband, and he shall rule over you" (Gen. 3:16).
According to the KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon the word "rule" found in Genesis 3:16 implies to "have dominion or to reign over."
The Apostle Paul also confirms this relationship, "Wives submit yourselves unto your husbands, as unto the Master. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Messiah is the head of the assembly" (Eph. 5:22).
The husband's authority is no license to abuse or exploit his wife. Because marriage between a man and a woman mirrors the unique relationship between Yahshua and the assembly, it should be apparent that Yahweh wants the relationship based on mutual love and honor.
Love Makes a Strong Union
The Apostle Paul compares Yahshua's love for the assembly to the husband's love for his wife. "Husbands love your wives, even as Messiah loved the assembly, and gave himself for it" (Eph. 5:25). Yahshua through his death and atonement demonstrated the greatest love known to man for the assembly (John 15:13). This is the same love that a husband is to have for his wife. As the Messiah died and gave all for the assembly, the husband should be willing to do the same for his wife. Once again this type of supernal love precludes the sin of spousal abuse. Yahweh's Word gives no justification for abusing one's spouse. Yahshua never abused or mistreated the assembly but cherished and valued it. In like manner, the husband should cherish and love his wife.
Paul in Titus 2:4 commands older women to teach the younger women to "love their husbands."
Love in a marriage cannot be a one-way street, but must be shared by both spouses. As Yahshua loved the assembly, the assembly loved Yahshua. A marriage will not be blessed with strength and happiness if sincere love is not at the center for both spouses.
Yahweh's Standards Ignored
Today's high divorce rates are a result in large part to a rejection of Yahweh's Word as the ultimate, moral authority. Yahweh from the beginning established marriage between one man and one woman as a lifelong union. When Yahweh created the first man and first woman he gave no provision for divorce or remarriage.
One common error among professed Bible believers is thinking that Yahweh built divorce into Old Testament regulations. There is no Old Testament statute in which Yahweh provided for divorce between two individuals lawfully united by vow.
Yahweh addresses the divorce issue in Deuteronomy 24:1-4: "When a man has taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favor in his eyes, because he has found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and gives it in her hand, and sends her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before Yahweh: and you shall not cause the land to sin, which Yahweh your Elohim gives you for an inheritance."
In this passage Yahweh is speaking about a specific circumstance. Yahweh is addressing the condition where a spouse marries another after she has been sent out or divorced by her first husband because of uncleanness. Again, it is important to understand that Yahweh is not giving justification for divorce, but is focusing on a specific situation that He tolerated because of the hardness of man's heart. The statement "-she had been defiled" in verse 4 shows that even in the Old Testament divorce and remarriage was an adulteration, even after the second spouse had died. Notice that it occurred with the second marriage while her first husband was yet alive. This understanding is no different from what Yahshua and Paul taught in the New Testament.
The Commentary on the Torah discusses Deuteronomy 24:1: "This law (vv. 1-4) has been taken as the biblical law of divorce, but it is not. It is the law governing a specific instance in which a couple might want to return to each other after they were divorced and she was remarried and then was divorced again or widowed. Divorce law in general has been derived in part from this case because of the curious fact that there is no law in the Torah telling how to get married and no law telling how to get divorced" (Richard Elliott Friedman, p. 639).
If Yahweh did command divorce in the Old Testament, why then did Yahweh command in Deuteronomy 22:19, 29 that if a husband had dishonored his wife in some fashion that he was not to "put her away all his days"?
The examples in Deuteronomy 22 and 24 show without question that divorce and remarriage was not Yahweh's will in the Old Testament.
Malachi 2:16 reads, "For Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, says that he hates putting away-"
A unique situation is in Ezra 10, where the prophet tells Judah to straighten out their sin of marrying strange wives by separating from them, which they did.
Moses' Toleration of the People's Hard Hearts
Most who advocate Yahweh's allowance for divorce will say that Moses had the authority to grant divorce in the Old Testament.
From the New Testament it is evident that while Moses tolerated or allowed divorce, he never gave commandment from Yahweh for or against divorce.
"They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so" (Matt. 19:7-8).
According to Yahshua, Moses only "suffered" divorce because of the hardness of man's heart. This word "suffered" is far from a command in the Greek. It is from the word epitrepo, which according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon means, "to permit or allow."
Scholars speculate that the reason for Moses' toleration or allowance for divorce in the Old Testament was partly to protect the safety of wives.
To this point Matthew Henry adds, "[Messiah] rectifies their mistake concerning the law of Moses; they called it a command, [Messiah] called it but permission, a toleration. [Messiah] tells them there was a reason for this toleration, not at all to their credit. If they had not been allowed to put away their wives, when they had conceived a dislike of them, they would have used them cruelly, would have beaten and abused them, and perhaps have murdered them" (Matthew Henry Study Bible, study note on Matthew 19:8).
The New Testament 'Exception Clause'
Those who believe that the new Testament allows divorce and remarriage will point to Matthew 5:32: "But I say unto you, that whoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery."
Here some will point to the word "fornication" and maintain that the grounds for divorce is adultery.
The word fornication is from the Greek word porneia, and is defined by the New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible as, "harlotry, adultery, incest, idolatry, or fornication."
From this definition the word porneia has numerous meanings.
Since this is the case, this word must be interpreted in accordance with the overall context of the passage.
One point of interest for those who believe that the word porneia implies adultery instead of fornication is the fact that Yahshua used a different word in this same verse to denote adultery: "-whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery."
The word "adultery" in this passage is from the Greek word moichao, which according to the New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible means only "adultery."
Question: If Yahshua meant adultery in the place of fornication in Matthew 5:32 (KJV), why did He not use the Greek word moichao or its Hebrew equivalent?
Why did Yahshua use two different words to express the same thing?
This passage clearly shows that he was expressing two different acts - fornication, which applies to the premarital state of engagement - and adultery, respectively.
The Significance of Engagement
To understand what Yahshua meant by the use of the word porneia in Matthew 5:32, a grasp of scriptural engagement is necessary.
Scriptural engagement was seen much differently than it is today.
In the Bible betrothal was understood as a binding relationship, the entering into of marriage.
Nave's Topical Bible under "Marriage" says, "Betrothal, a quasi-marriage, Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:27."
The KJV Study Bible verifies this, "There was no sexual relations during a Jewish betrothal period, but it was a much more binding relationship than a modern engagement and could be broken only by divorce (v. 19).
In Deut. 22:24 a betrothed woman is called a 'wife,' though the preceding verse speaks of her as being "betrothed unto a husband" (study note at Matthew 1:18).
Through the example of Joseph, Yahshua's use of "fornication" in Matthew 5:32 is now clear.
Joseph's contemplating divorcing Mary is the only account of a divorce in the New Testament, which occurred while Joseph and Mary were engaged but the marriage was yet to be finalized, Matthew 1:19.
Let Not Man Put Asunder
If any doubt existed in the minds of the Pharisees who approached Yahshua in Matthew 19, Yahshua emphatically put those doubts to rest by his statement: "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore Elohim has joined together, let not man put asunder" (Matt. 19:6).
Yahshua categorically states in this passage that once two people have made the commitment and consummated a marriage that they are no longer two, but one. He also verifies that once this happens that no man can separate that which Yahweh has joined.
Just as it is today, Yahshua's teaching was hard for many to accept. This is obvious in His statement in verse 11: "-All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given."
Yahshua's teachings on divorce and remarriage were not the lukewarm, but for those sincerely seeking Yahweh and His will in their lives. Yahshua was reaffirming what his Father had established from the beginning:. For those who would point to the Old Testament as justification to break wedding vows, Yahshua explained, "Moses suffered you to put away your wives... but from the beginning it was not so" (Matt. 19:8).
At the beginning in Genesis it is clear that Yahweh made marriage between one man and one woman for life.
Till Death Do Us Part
In accordance with what Yahshua said in Matthew 19, the Apostle Paul reiterates the message in Romans 7:2-3: "For the woman which has a husband is bound by the law to her husband so long that he lives; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she is married to another man."
The concept that marriage is a lifelong union might seem strange in a day of runaway divorce rates. Apathetic attitudes of marriage notwithstanding, it is clear from Paul's statement that the permanence of marriage still stands.
Paul, under the inspiration of Yahshua the Messiah, taught that marriage was a lifelong institution that was only broken or dissolved only by the physical death of a spouse. Paul said that if a spouse remarried while the other spouse was yet alive that the spouse who remarried would commit adultery. This is the same thing that Yahshua taught during his ministry and the same doctrine that Yahshua was referring to when he said that not all men could receive this saying.
Not Under Bondage
The last passage to consider is 1 Corinthians 7:15: "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage is such cases..."
Those who maintain that Yahshua and Paul permitted divorce in the New Testament claim that the word "bondage" in the above passage suggests that the believing mate is no longer obligated to his or her first spouse and is therefore free to remarry.
The first contradiction to this interpretation is found in verses 10-11: "And unto the married I command, yet not I, but Yahweh, let not the wife depart from her husband: But if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife."
According to Yahweh's command, not Paul's, if a husband and wife separated they were either to stay unmarried or be reconciled.
Notice that divorce was not an option.
The other point to consider in this passage is the meaning of the word "bondage." The word bondage is from the Greek word douloo, which according to the KJV New testament Greek Lexicon means, "to make a slave of or to reduce to bondage."
The "bondage" that this word is referring to means the marital responsibilities that one is subservient to that Paul speaks of in verses 3-6.
This word, however, is not speaking of the dissolving of the martial vow or covenant.
Yahweh Judges on the Basis of Understanding
We must follow every word that proceeds out of the mouth of Yahweh, and Yahweh makes it clear that He hates divorce. Yahshua never taught divorce. Rather, He raised the bar and restored marriage to the position it was originally meant to have before the hardness of man's heart took over. Yahshua said, "What Yahweh has joined together, let no man put asunder."
How then can man separate what Yahweh has joined?
When we consider Matthew 5:32, addressing those that are engaged rather than married, the pieces of the puzzle fit perfectly.
This understanding ties together all the loose ends that other arguments leave hanging. The only example in the New Testament of a man considering divorce was Joseph, who was not married, but engaged. Romans 7 says that a marriage covenant can only be terminated upon death.
Man cannot terminate a marriage covenant through divorce.
What does this mean, then, for those who were divorced and remarried before coming into the knowledge of the Truth?
Does this place them in a constant state of adultery or sin?
While there is no passage in Scripture where Yahweh says specifically that divorce and remarriage in ignorance before baptism is forgiven and washed away, what the Bible does say is that Yahweh winks at our ignorance, but commands that we repent after coming to the knowledge of His truth, Acts 17:30.
It is our understanding that Yahweh will acknowledge repentance that takes place at baptism, and consider the present situation.
If this situation could not be forgiven then He would never call the divorced person into His Truth in the first place. His grace and mercy extend to all who repent of past mistakes and who now go on to live for Him.
Yahweh's Restoration Ministry acknowledges Yahweh's standards as they are.
We don't accept excuses for an individual's personal situation.
Once immersed into Yahshua's Name, couples must not seek divorce or remarriage, having a much better understanding of the marital vow and how inviolate Yahweh considers it.
Marriage is a sacred covenant. Yahweh's marriage laws are designed to form a stable family environment that will produce happy, well-adjusted children reared by both a loving father and mother. Children must be taught the permanence of marriage and toward that end to choose their future mates wisely from among believers, 1Corinthians 7:39.
The cycle of broken homes must end, and it starts with knowing your future spouse very well before you recite your vows, realizing that marriage is for life.
Re:
Restore the Lock in Wedlock
Isn't it funny how the sexual revolution of the 60's was supposed to have freed us from all the entrapments of 'our suppressed sexuality'. Looks like it did the exact opposite. Problem is - few will go back and see what a miserable premise that was and try to return to the way things were before that cat got out of the bag.
Here's another interesting study that goes hand and hand with your reference.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?so...+and+RemarriageAs with any other teaching, hold it up to scripture and see what is revealed to you.
N.
thanks CM, but I dont think they went into that verse far enough.
now I'm not sure what you took from that or what you were wanting me to see.
But I still take it the same way. That it was God's will for me to let my H go so that he could bring him back to me. Now in regards to the word "bondage" I cannot say that I have the understanding to say that Paul is saying it is okay to remarry or not if you were first M to an unbeliever and they left. And at the time of my sitch, I did feel that God had a husband waiting for me and I did not know if it was my H or someone else. But I did know that I needed to let my H go and give my problem to God. And letting go also does not mean I would plan to get M again to someone else. because Paul does say the Lord commands all M people to stay together and if one leaves then let them not marry but only reconcile to the original spouse.
Anyway, trust all is well & I thought I would just share this article with all of you
Best wishes & blessings
CM
March 10, 2008
The "Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" in Marriage
By Dave Boehi
In recent weeks I've been talking about why marriage is important in an age when an increasing number of couples are choosing to live together but not get married. I continue to receive some perceptive e-mails on the subject, and one theme keeps coming up: A recognition that we need to do a better job of showing couples how to deal with the difficult part of marriage—what one reader calls the "good, the bad, and the ugly."
"Marriage has become a negative term in this culture and society," wrote Elisha McGonagle. "We no longer look at marriage with anticipation, but with fear. Fear drives so many people in this country. People are scared that if they get married then there is the possibility of getting divorced.
"No, marriage does not guarantee a lifelong relationship, but neither does any relationship =2E..
Marriage was designed to be a lifelong relationship. The only reason it is not is because we have made it that way.
We too often look for any easy way out. If we feel unhappy, then just leave. If you feel unfulfilled, then leave. If your husband makes you mad, you can just leave."
Elisha knows first-hand the dangers of weak commitment in marriage. After she and her husband were married nearly four years, they were considering divorce. They talked with their pastor, and he said they needed to throw out the words "separate" and "divorce." "If you don't have those things as an option then you are forced to work things out. What an extraordinary thought ... we actually have to work through our issues."
She goes on:
Our country is a fast-food country. We want things easy and we want it now. No way do we want to do anything that requires effort. We go into marriage thinking that we will have the perfect little marriage and the perfect little family in the cookie-cutter house and we will never argue. Wrong! We need to know what we are actually agreeing to.
We are agreeing to stay with our spouse when things are the worst they have ever been. When they make you angry and call you names and hurt your feelings.
Marriage is not a continuous date. You now get to see the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Other readers shared some practical words on how their faith helps them deal with difficulties and conflict in marriage.
Deborah Lynn Taylor wrote that marriage is designed by the ultimate Architect of love:
Through the love of God I can love my husband. I can love his smelly socks, and I can love the cologne he wears. I can love his bad habit of not taking out the trash, and I can love the way he impeccably cleans our bedroom. God's love is patient and kind. It bears all things. It believes all things and it never fails. My husband and I have been married for seven years. And it has not been an easy road. We went from his surgery only two weeks after our wedding to losing his father.
And all in between there was confusion, money problems, new babies, miscommunication and interference from unwanted life situations.
But I remember that I love him. And I vowed to sustain through all of the good and bad times.
Misty Todd said that she said "I do" to her husband, she meant that commitment to last.
"I don't know how in the world people do it without Christ, though," she wrote. "He is the center of our home, and we still have days that we could really hurt each other without Christ at the center of their hearts and lives."
Finally, Sherry Jennings wrote to remind us that "One of the most important distinctions of marriage the way God intended is that it is a covenant, not just a commitment or a contract.
In marriage the way God intended, each spouse promises to love the other regardless of the other's performance."
Sherry concluded her e-mail with some powerful words:
A marriage is about seeing each other through God's eyes, hearing each other with God's ears, lifting each other with God's hands, encouraging each other with God's Words, and loving each other with God's heart. Marriage is about choosing each day, each minute, to honor God with our words and actions, and in turn, we honor our spouses. Marriage is recognizing that God created my husband specifically for me ->
How can I not love, honor, treasure a perfect gift from my perfect God?
© Copyright 2008 by FamilyLife. All rights reserved.
Well everyone, hope this post finds the right "ears"
Three days ago, after a bit of leading from some fellow standers, etc al -> I decided to send my wife the dreaded Dvd ti test the water, so to speak
Anyways, I still had the Dvd wrapped from December 2006 (Little Shop Of Horros) and attached a card to it AND (gasp) a single red rose...
The inscription on the card read:
"Hi W - To the good times -> 'H'"So yesterday, I got "Courier Joe" to deliver the parcel to my W at her place of work - he returned empty handed and said my W had asked what it was to which he told her he didn't know and that she must oepn it to find out.
Apparently she did not open the parcel in front of "Courier Joe" but she did have at least a 6 minute chat with him about our cats, the house, business, etc!
She mentioned she was missing the cats and also asked how the 4th kitty was doing = the last feral "we" rescued before her departure...
She reveled she had knowledge of my dancing and the new vehicle in our Company Fleet (all via her "spy" on our property I guess).
A few "negatives" were mentioned about the upkeep of the house in that it was run down, etc - there was a brief period last year when the grass got a tad on the long side due to Courier Joe being too busy with our business day to day operations to mow the lawn - all things considered the house is looking neat in any case
Right, so fast forward to this evening after going to watch a local production of Handel's Messiah, I went to check the post box on returning home.
Sigh, there was the entire parcel I had sent to my wife with a note stapled to the outside:
"Please refrain from sending me gifts - the feelings are not mutual - rather give me my divorce!At least she actually removed the wrapping paper to see what's inside
Sooooooooo, not happy to get a small gift but *very* happy to take two thousand five hundred rand from me every month??
Back to my prayer closet
CM,
Sigh, there was the entire parcel I had sent to my wife with a note stapled to the outside:
"Please refrain from sending me gifts - the feelings are not mutual - rather give me my divorce!
At least she actually removed the wrapping paper to see what's inside
Yep, it is interesting that your W made the effort to open the parcel. Is it also possible that she was hoping the D papers were inside? I respect your choice to not grant a D to your W. Whatever you do, please also be careful that she doesn't get the impression that you are being mean to her by not granting her the D. Does she know that you're not being vengeful? Just my 2 cents...
-PH
CM,
Yep, it is interesting that your W made the effort to open the parcel. Is it also possible that she was hoping the D papers were inside? I respect your choice to not grant a D to your W. Whatever you do, please also be careful that she doesn't get the impression that you are being mean to her by not granting her the D. Does she know that you're not being vengeful? Just my 2 cents...
-PH
Thanks for the input ph & yes I've been wondering for a loooooooooong time now whether my wife "understands" that I'm actually standing for our marriage AND why
How would I "break" that news to her though at this point -> it seems anything I might do or say IS going to be merely seen as me being stubbor / obstructionist, etc?
Quoting scripture is probably going to seem elitist although I don't think she's been told about and/or shown the verse in Malachi about divorce OR the one about the husband NOT granting his wife a divorce, either...
ROCK < me > HARD PLACE
Hey CM, the thing is that we are all in different places. Quoting scripture to her may appear to be a holier than though thing to do.
Just keep doing what you feel you need to do and quit worrying about justifying your actions to her. People who justify their actions without being directly questioned appear to have alterior motives.
Ian
Hey CM, the thing is that we are all in different places. Quoting scripture to her may appear to be a holier than though thing to do.
Thanks Ian - that was what I thought Just keep doing what you feel you need to do and quit worrying about justifying your actions to her. People who justify their actions without being directly questioned appear to have alterior motives.
Ian
Thanks for this also - I don't "think" I've tried to justify a lot of what I do to anyone - not consciously anyways
CM, I understand your position of wanting her to know where your real motivation is coming from. I am in a similar situation.
It is difficult to know what is right. It can be difficult to discern when the motivation is coming from our own selfish desires or when we are acting out of love. Ian is correct in that if we speak out of place it can be construed as arrogance. Yet we have a higher calling to uphold the truth as well(Romans 10:14).
Lean on the Lord and Him direct your steps(Pro 3:5-6). Have peace in the fact that the Lord knows your heart.
Good Friday,
N.
sorry 4kids, but it is also not our job to uphold the truth when we do not know what the other persons truths are.
CM's wife must face her own demons and deal with her own beliefs. CM imposing his beliefs on her is not necessary and will be seen as him imposing his beliefs on her as well as condemning her which is God's place, not CM's.
Ian
CM, I understand your position of wanting her to know where your real motivation is coming from. I am in a similar situation.
4kids, I just want to welcome you to my thred firstly and thank you for your Scriptural perspective!
I've been a stander (initially "unknowingly" though) since the day my wife left and the rebirth of my Faith has been marvellous
My wife has already filed for divorce (just to bring you up to "speed") AND has taken me to court subsequently for interim maintenance & I'm now paying her three thousand rand a month (her legal costs are included in this sum)
Essentially, we're "waiting" for a court date and then it might even be a roll of the dice to decide about the ownership of MY house and how much my wife should be compensated
The house was put in my wifes name due to business reasons, but essentially my late Mum bought the house & I put all of my inheritance money into the property to make it paid up -> my wife is CLAIMING ownership of the house as a result & my Mum is not around to say otherwise
It is difficult to know what is right. It can be difficult to discern when the motivation is coming from our own selfish desires or when we are acting out of love. Ian is correct in that if we speak out of place it can be construed as arrogance. Yet we have a higher calling to uphold the truth as well(Romans 10:14).
Lean on the Lord and Him direct your steps(Pro 3:5-6). Have peace in the fact that the Lord knows your heart.
Good Friday,
N.
I will post some more questions to you about the last few comments you made but I have to go out to my dance partners house now as her mother has kindly organised supper etc...
Best wishes & blessings
CM
I've been following your thread since I came across it and saw your love for dance. My kids who were involved in dance gave me a pair of Tap shoes for Christmas about 5 years ago, and I haven't quit since. Nowhere near competition level, but it's fun and a good workout. I even took adult ballet for a year. Man, that stuff is really tough! I have a whole new appreciation for those who make it look so easy. It takes a lot of hard work. Wish I had come across it in my younger days...
http://bayimg.com/EAJKGAAbd N.
how are things with you CM?? God bless!
Good luck with competition, C_M!
oh ya, that would be cool to send some copies of your competitions. I think my s3 would enjoy it too.
I'll email you my address sometime
Hiya Everyone
Not much to report on from here -> the dancing is still GREAT and my wife remains in hiding (so to speak).
No news is good news (I guess) = no court dates set
I still pray about her daily and receive support & prayers from a number of you out there too = THANK YOU all
This Sunday (the 18th May) will be our 12th "Wedding Anniversary" - the 17th May is the "anniversary" of my sister's death and my niece's birthday is on the 16th May - all in all, a POTENTIALLY emotional week
Best wishes & blessings to all of you FINE DB'ers out there
CM
Good luck with competition, C_M!
Thanks - we did ok, I guess
Hey CM, Hope you make it through the anniversaries/birthday OK. Hang in there! God can provide the comfort we need, when we ask Him to. I know I had to ask Him for it this evening.
-PH
Hey CM, Hope you make it through the anniversaries/birthday OK. Hang in there! God can provide the comfort we need, when we ask Him to. I know I had to ask Him for it this evening.
-PH
Thank you ph - it's a nostalgic time for me and also a bit hard to comprehend my wife has been away from home for 18 months already
Best wishes & blessings
CM
Well, yesterday was our 12th Wedding Anniversary - not a peep from my wife - this is the 2nd "missed" anniversary since she left our home
I toyed with making contact this entire week....
Anyways, I had a pretty good day regardless -----> I helped out on one of the beginner tango classes yesterday, went to Church with my dance partner in the evening & then joined her & her Mother for dinner & to watch DANCE WITH THE STARS...
One of the girls from our dance class got married on Saturday and a few of us from dancing were invited - super ceremony and the bride came down the aisle singing "From This Moment" by Shania Twain...
Listening to the vows as these two uttered them, made mw wish my wife could hear them again
Yes it REALLY should be
"TIL DEATH DO US PART"Sigh!!!
Have a blessed day everyone
CM
Well, my thread HAS been quiet
This week is my wife's 37th birthday (Saturday 06th July 2008) and since my last update I've not heard a single word from her...
I know her mother is in Ireland at the moment, so IF she's alone then so is her support system as she used to call her mother on a daily basis.
Any wise words from my loyal advisors?
Someone suggested I let my wife know that I'm still standing for the restoration of my marriage - I've never told her that directly.
Oh, my dancing is going well still - we've been promoted to the next level in our Ballroom & Latin sections AND we just won our new Ballroom Section in a competition this last Saturday night
I trust everyone else is well - sorry not m,uch of an update as things are essentially quiet on the wife, etc front...
Best wishes & blessings
CM
Well, at least we know you're alive and still dancing! That's great news!
N.
Well, at least we know you're alive and still dancing! That's great news!
N.
Thanks 4kids - yes, the dancing is going well so that is still a HUGE blessing to me
Financially things are tough as I'm paying my wife monthly maintenance (even though we don't have any kids) so this means I bear the entire business & family finances alone and on top of her "allowance"...
How are you doing?
Best wishes & blessings
CM
Hey CM, glad you updated.
Keep up the dancing my friend, it is great for you.
How long has it been since you had absolutely any contact with the W?
Ian
Hey CM, glad you updated.
Keep up the dancing my friend, it is great for you.
How long has it been since you had absolutely any contact with the W?
Ian
Hiya Ian - so glad to see you back in these here parts
Yes, LOADS happening on the dance carreer side of things and it's such a great path to be on The last time I had "contact" with my wife was on 20th March 2008 when I sent her the DvD package & I'd seen her about a month prior to that in the local grocery store / supermarket.
My DvD "encounter" is one page back ----->
Well everyone, hope this post finds the right "ears"
Three days ago, after a bit of leading from some fellow standers, etc al -> I decided to send my wife the dreaded Dvd ti test the water, so to speak
Anyways, I still had the Dvd wrapped from December 2006 (Little Shop Of Horros) and attached a card to it AND (gasp) a single red rose...
The inscription on the card read: "Hi W - To the good times -> 'H'"
So yesterday, I got "Courier Joe" to deliver the parcel to my W at her place of work - he returned empty handed and said my W had asked what it was to which he told her he didn't know and that she must oepn it to find out.
Apparently she did not open the parcel in front of "Courier Joe" but she did have at least a 6 minute chat with him about our cats, the house, business, etc!
She mentioned she was missing the cats and also asked how the 4th kitty was doing = the last feral "we" rescued before her departure...
She reveled she had knowledge of my dancing and the new vehicle in our Company Fleet (all via her "spy" on our property I guess).
A few "negatives" were mentioned about the upkeep of the house in that it was run down, etc - there was a brief period last year when the grass got a tad on the long side due to Courier Joe being too busy with our business day to day operations to mow the lawn - all things considered the house is looking neat in any case
Right, so fast forward to this evening after going to watch a local production of Handel's Messiah, I went to check the post box on returning home.
Sigh, there was the entire parcel I had sent to my wife with a note stapled to the outside:
"Please refrain from sending me gifts - the feelings are not mutual - rather give me my divorce!
At least she actually removed the wrapping paper to see what's inside
Sooooooooo, not happy to get a small gift but *very* happy to take two thousand five hundred rand from me every month??
Back to my prayer closet
Thanks 4kids - yes, the dancing is going well so that is still a HUGE blessing to me
Financially things are tough as I'm paying my wife monthly maintenance (even though we don't have any kids) so this means I bear the entire business & family finances alone and on top of her "allowance"...
How are you doing?
Best wishes & blessings
CM Well, let's just say I hear you on the financial front ;).
The Lord continues to bless though, and is teaching me to appreciate the amazing abundance that I already have in spite of what society around me says I 'need'.
Will include your financial struggles in my prayers,
N.
P.S. Fun link for you:
http://www.kaneva.com/asset/4009471.media 
Hiya Everyone
I got some bad news on Thursday night - it indeed appears my wife has fallen into adultry 
Remember the anonymous calls I received about 14 months ago from the so-called private investigator?
Well, it seems he was right and it IS my wife's bridesmaids brother-in law with whom my wife is involved
She spent the weekend at his place and celebrated her 37th birthday today also (at his place up the north coast) 
Hi CM, So sorry that she is having an A. I know this is very hard to take.
-PH
Tough news. Been there, still doing that. Air your feelings out here if you don't have someone close by to confide in.
Sometimes it helps just to get them out on the table. I'd advise not to keep them bottled up. It is a public forum though so it's your call.
Maybe just get a pad of paper and put them there. Pouring them out in prayer is another great outlet. Something. Hold on to them and they'll eat you alive from the inside out.
Keeping you in prayers,
N.
Hi CM, So sorry that she is having an A. I know this is very hard to take.
-PH
Thanks ph
At least now I have a name for my wife's yoke that is binding her.
Please pray for her heart of stone to be changed to a heart of flesh and that this "yoke" is completely dissolved
Best wishes & blessings
CM
Not sure if you should be saying her heart is of stone. Why not try looking at her through different eyes? Maybe you will see things in another light.
Tough news. Been there, still doing that. Air your feelings out here if you don't have someone close by to confide in.
Thanks 4kids - I have a prayer partner who is "almost" going through the same thing so he's of great blessing & comfort to me Sometimes it helps just to get them out on the table. I'd advise not to keep them bottled up. It is a public forum though so it's your call.
Again, thank you for your support 4kids
I'm not sure how I feel right now apart from deeply disappointed Maybe just get a pad of paper and put them there. Pouring them out in prayer is another great outlet. Something. Hold on to them and they'll eat you alive from the inside out.
Keeping you in prayers,
N.
I know the enemy is knocking at my door now even more strongly than ever and I feel the need to intensify my own WALK and prayer life - as ph said, at least now we have a NAME for my wife's yoke
It gets "worse" though as it "seems" my wife may even be pregnant with this guys child
This is soooooooooo NOT the lady I married
Numb explains one of my emotions as I sit here & type tonight - not in an egotistical way, but perhaps more feeling like I've moved into the twilight zone and that my marriage has been a farce
Disbelief, dismay & pointlesssnes - where are my wise ladies now -> AmyC, ST I Made it, Summer, Lady Di, ph, brand new day, trip, etc - I need your EXTREME prayers please!
Best wishes & blessings
CM
Not sure if you should be saying her heart is of stone. Why not try looking at her through different eyes? Maybe you will see things in another light.
Hiya trip
Good to see you around these parts
I was "quoting" something from Scripture there as a way of perhaps explaining my wife's "behaviour"
Ezekiel 36:26
"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Sorry, I was not trying to be preachy or anything - it just made sense to me as I have no other way to really describe her behaviour... in that she's shut me out completely (ala amputee style)
IF it is true my wife is involved with this guy, it all kinda fits = her behaviour from day #1 when she moved out, etc.....etc
Our new secretary emailed this to me tonight:
When God leads you to the edge of the cliff, trust Him fully and let go, only 1 of 2 things will happen, either He'll catch you when you fall, or He'll teach you how to fly!'
The power of one sentence!
God is going to shift things around for you today and let things work in your favour.
If you believe, send it.
If you don't believe, delete it.
God closes doors no man can open & God opens doors no man can close.
If you need God to open some doors for you.... pray for His Kingdom, His people
Have a blessed day and remember to be a blessing...
Confident_me,
Sorry you had to learn about the affair. I'm even more sorry that their actually was one. Of course, she doesn't see it that way.
It doesn't matter if your wife heard the vows. She'd see it entirely different from you...she'd probably be like, "don't do it."
My question: Why are you paying spouse support and for how long will you be doing that? Can't she get a job? I didn't read your whole story, I'm sorry, so if this was ordered by the court I understand. I just hope it isn't out of some obligation you feel towards her.
CM,
A verse that I came across and comforted me in a similar situation:
Psalm 57:
1 Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me,
for in you my soul takes refuge.
I will take refuge in the shadow of your wings
until the disaster has passed.
Seek Him out, pour your cares on Him. Christ walked the earth and experienced every trial we will.
Hebrews 4:
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Empathizing your pain,
N.
Confident_me,
Sorry you had to learn about the affair. I'm even more sorry that their actually was one. Of course, she doesn't see it that way.
It doesn't matter if your wife heard the vows. She'd see it entirely different from you...she'd probably be like, "don't do it."
My question: Why are you paying spouse support and for how long will you be doing that? Can't she get a job? I didn't read your whole story, I'm sorry, so if this was ordered by the court I understand. I just hope it isn't out of some obligation you feel towards her.
Hiya
You're quite right it IS court ordered
Here in South Africa, we have a small thing called a RULE 43 Application - it's "normally" to provide interrim maintenance / support for the wife BUT in our case, my wife used this "loophole" (if I can call it that ) to FORCE me into divorcing her...
Her logic was / IS = that I would rather grant her a divorce than actually end up paying her money every month; i.e: money is more important to me that the sanctity of our marriage vows
My wife earns a good enough salary to take care of herself and her "monetary claims" were mostly bogus and inflated -> you'll have to look back in my thread/s to where that all happened (unless I can dig them up for you :))
Thanks for popping by though
Best wishes & blessings
CM
EDITED - sorry, forgot to mention that the court ordered maintenance is ONLY until / IF the "D" goes though
My question: Why are you paying spouse support and for how long will you be doing that? Can't she get a job? I didn't read your whole story, I'm sorry, so if this was ordered by the court I understand. I just hope it isn't out of some obligation you feel towards her.
I found the thread reference Court Ordered Interim Maintenance
Whats up CM? Not for nothing but whilst you have been standing for your marriage you were also supposed to be moving forward with your life and what you want it to be without her in it.
Please tell me you did not just sit still and do absolutely nothing all this time?
This news is very sketchy to me CM, what do you base the pregnant thing on?
I am reminded of a man who's family was burned, his home and crops destroyed, and given warts all over his body....... How did his faith hold up?
Ian
Whats up CM? Not for nothing but whilst you have been standing for your marriage you were also supposed to be moving forward with your life and what you want it to be without her in it.
Please tell me you did not just sit still and do absolutely nothing all this time?
Hello Ian
Thanks for popping by and your input is greatly appreciated
I'm not sure I understand the question entirely - in terms of my house, etc I've not done much there due to the Legal Damoclease hanging over it BUT interms of my "life" I've nututured a great many friendships through my dancing.
Yes, the dancing has taken centre stage and I see a "career" in the making here and I'm riding that wave until the end
My faih has been rekindled and I assist people where I can in their own relationships & in marriage restoration.
Business is good and we've just employed a new secretary / administrative assistant so that should free up a lot of my time when she gets more proficient This news is very sketchy to me CM, what do you base the pregnant thing on?
Apologies, I can't expound here yet but for now it "seems" she is indeed carrying someone else's child I am reminded of a man who's family was burned, his home and crops destroyed, and given warts all over his body....... How did his faith hold up?
Ian
Well, I've kinda lost my entire family and my wife to date so are you saying I'm similar to the story?
My faith is holding out quite well thanks to my support group, etc though
Best wishes & blessings
CM
Not much action in my thread so I guess I'll just share one of the emails I received today
Moses
Jesus answered, "What did Moses command you to do?" The Pharisees said, "Moses allowed a man to divorce his wife by writing a certificate of divorce."
-- Mark 10:3-4 (ERV)
KEY THOUGHT:
In this Scripture, the Pharisees are able to correctly tell Jesus what Moses said about divorce. In the subsequent verses, Jesus confronts the Pharisees with the truth revealed in their question; they were missing God's central principle about marriage.
It is easy to quote Scripture: living God's truth revealed in that Scripture is much more challenging!
Let's not just seek to know the Scriptures, but let's also commit to know the heart and will of God who lies behind the Scriptures.
TODAY'S PRAYER:
O God, teach me your way, instruct me in your will, and lead me so that I can walk with you each day. In Jesus' name. Amen.
Hard-Heartedness
Jesus said, "Moses wrote that command for you because you refused to accept God's teaching."
-- Mark 10:5 (ERV)
KEY THOUGHT:
What Moses did in allowing the children of Israel a legal means of divorce (see verses 1-4 or yesterday's WJD!) was done only as a concession. It was not God's original plan. It was not what was best for the people involved. It was allowed only because of the hard hearts of the people who wouldn't honor their vows to each other and to God.
In a world where people continue to break their vows, refuse to be faithful to each other, and wound their children, the focus shouldn't become the legality of the concession, but should become a focus on prevention of divorce through healthy and loving marriages and restoration of those broken by divorce.
TODAY'S PRAYER:
God, I ask first that you help me be a faithful, loyal, and loving person who lives up the vows, promises, and pledges that I make.
Second, dear Father, I pray that you use me to encourage others to do the same. Finally, Righteous Father, I ask that you show me the best ways to help restore and encourage those who have been wounded by divorce. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.
Leaving the Nest
"'That is why a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife.'"
-- Mark 10:7 (ERV)
KEY THOUGHT:
One of the key elements of marriage as God designed it is the transfer of dependence from one's parents to one's marriage partner. In the vast majority of cultures, it is assumed that the woman will leave her parents to begin her new family with her husband. Jesus makes clear that the man must leave his parents for his wife as well. They must learn to rely on one another and not their parents. In their differences as male and female, they must learn that the other completes what is lacking as they serve each other and depend upon God.
TODAY'S PRAYER:
Father, I pray that I will live to see a deeper appreciation for your plan for marriage in my culture. Until that day, I pray that those in my family will embody your will in our marriage and family relationships. In Jesus name I pray. Amen.
United into One
"'And the two people will become one.' So the people are not two, but one."
-- Mark 10:8 (ERV)
KEY THOUGHT:
Marriage is about two people becoming one entity. Jesus makes this powerfully clear by emphasizing "oneness" four times in the whole passage -- vs. 5 - "joined"; vs. 5 - "two united into one"; vs. 6 - "no longer two but one"; and, "God has joined them." The sexual union between a husband and wife is clearly in view with this context. This is a good and glorious union that is to be enjoyed and celebrated in marriage.
TODAY'S PRAYER:
Father, thank you for your plan about the proper place for sexual
intimacy within the security and protection of marriage. May I always honor you in handling my sexuality in holiness, righteousness, and love. In Jesus name. Amen.
Tuesday, July 8, 2008
God Joined
"God has joined those two people together. So no person should separate them."
-- Mark 10:9 (ERV)
KEY THOUGHT:
God has the power to make two people one. Marriage is not about a
wedding, but about a man and a woman entering into a covenant
relationship with God. God is the greater party in the covenant.
The man and the woman give their highest allegiance and commitment to God when they marry. There will be times when their spouse will unfortunately disappoint them or let them down. But, God wants them to remember that their highest priority is not treating their spouse as he or she deserves, but as God would have them be treated. Honoring God in the way they treat each other is the key to marriage as God sees it.
God wants husbands and wives to understand that breaking a marriage apart is an offense against God -- he is the one who makes couples one and the one with whom they enter into covenant relationship. God hates covenants made with him to be broken.
TODAY'S PRAYER:
O God, please give your people a deeper appreciation of what it means to enter into covenant with you when they marry. I worry about all the money we spend on wedding ceremonies when there is so little appreciation for the covenant relationship that begins when a couple is married. Help me, O God, to be a covenant-keeper and a person who encourages others to be loyal to you and the covenants they make with you. In Jesus' name. Amen.
Divorce and Adultery
Later, the followers and Jesus were in the house. The followers asked Jesus again about the question of divorce.
Jesus answered, "Any person that divorces his wife and marries another woman is guilty of sin against his wife. He is guilty of the sin of adultery. And the woman that divorces her husband and marries another man is also guilty of adultery."
-- Mark 10:10-12 (ERV)
KEY THOUGHT:
In a world which takes divorce lightly despite the carnage left in the lives of children, God reminds his people that he takes seriously the sin of divorce when it does not have a basis in your will. He views it as adultery -- betrayal of the marriage covenant that was made with him. He hates it and doesn't want it to happen among his people. Why?
Is it because he wants to limit or punish or harm them? No! Is it
because of the damage done to children and their faith? Can this be overcome? Yes. As far as it is possible with us, divorce must be prevented and Christian men and women must learn to make homes full of love, joy, and peace through the power of the Holy Spirit.
TODAY'S PRAYER:
O Father, forgive us and help us. So many people in our time feel the pain of abandonment and loss because a spouse has left them. Others have grown up wondering what they did wrong because a parent abandoned them and their family. Heal our wounds. Heal our land. Pour out your Spirit and restore our love for each other in our homes. Help us, O Lord, find the way back to your grace and power so that we can be a people of solid marriages, loving families, and compassionate ministry.
In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.
Whats up CM? Not for nothing but whilst you have been standing for your marriage you were also supposed to be moving forward with your life and what you want it to be without her in it.
Please tell me you did not just sit still and do absolutely nothing all this time?
Hello Ian
Thanks for popping by and your input is greatly appreciated
I'm not sure I understand the question entirely - in terms of my house, etc I've not done much there due to the Legal Damoclease hanging over it BUT interms of my "life" I've nututured a great many friendships through my dancing.
Yes, the dancing has taken centre stage and I see a "career" in the making here and I'm riding that wave until the end
My faih has been rekindled and I assist people where I can in their own relationships & in marriage restoration.
Business is good and we've just employed a new secretary / administrative assistant so that should free up a lot of my time when she gets more proficient This news is very sketchy to me CM, what do you base the pregnant thing on?
Apologies, I can't expound here yet but for now it "seems" she is indeed carrying someone else's child I am reminded of a man who's family was burned, his home and crops destroyed, and given warts all over his body....... How did his faith hold up?
Ian
Well, I've kinda lost my entire family and my wife to date so are you saying I'm similar to the story?
My faith is holding out quite well thanks to my support group, etc though
Best wishes & blessings
CM CM, that story is the story of Job.I am sure you are familiar as it is basically saying that through it all you simply have to keep your faith in God that the direction he is leading you is the one you were meant to take.
Ian
CM, that story is the story of Job.I am sure you are familiar as it is basically saying that through it all you simply have to keep your faith in God that the direction he is leading you is the one you were meant to take.
Ian
Aha, thank you Ian
I have an awesome prayer partner who has been sooooo supportive and I know all of this is a test of my faith firstly & secondly a test of my SINCERE love for my wife.
My "american Prayer / Marriage Restoration support group wrote this to me after finding out about my wife's "activities":
CM,
We surely understand the sadness you are experiencing. In discussing this during our devotional and prayer time tonight, we want to encourage you to be cautious as to "exposing" your wife's indiscretions to people. If her heart becomes softer down the road and the two of you have contact again, you wouldn't want this to come back to harm the possibility of reconciliation.
It's a good idea to resist the temptation to expose your wife's sins and instead, to do what you can to "cover" her with your words. We know this is just the opposite of what your hurt feelings or anger might feel like doing.
Bob and Audrey Meisner speak of this concept in their ministry.
http://www.bobandaudrey.com. This is an excerpt from Bob and Audrey's story in the book Can My Marriage Be Saved? by Mae and Erika Chambers
"Had I understood the practiced the principle of covering my wife and family, the adultery might never have occurred. It was my lack of understanding of the covering principle that also caused me at first to want to tell everybody what Audrey had done and to declare my own innocence. But God's desire for our situation was healing and restoration, which started with concealing or covering it for protection. God designed every woman with a deep desire to be covered. Every man is designed by God to be a coverer, a protector and provider for his wife and children. Part of the man's function is to be a buffer between his family and the harshness of the world."
Please know that we are praying for you,
Clint and Penny
My friend replied after I forwarded him the email:
That's certainly good advice as pertains to the world in general.
You definitely don't want to be going about telling every T, D & H that your wife is an adulterer.
As the paster says, it's bound to bite you when your wife comes home.
But, as to the divorce proceedings, from a purely financial perspective, evidence of indiscretion is bound to save you money.
Your lawyer can advise you on this, of course.
I suppose this has to be prayed about at length. It's impossible for me to give you a firm direction to take.
Some might say that if your feelings are truly sincere for your wife then you wouldn't want to drag her name through the mud at all. But there is the matter of the money.
I suppose the best course is to leave it all in God's hands. Focusing only on reducing a possible financial award to your wife can't be the main consideration.
You've probably done all you can in this regard by making clear in your deposition that you don't want a divorce and still love your wife.
I have to admit as I sit here that my feeling is that you don't drag in the possibility of infidelity. If you were trying to separate permanently from your wife then it would make sense, but as the goal is restoration, it does make sense to be as gentle as possible.
Of course, we should always be as gentle as possible!
CM,
So sorry about your W's possible baby news. I know it must hurt so much!
I agree with others that out of love for her and the desire to restore your M, it would be best to keep her news quiet and "cover her".
Hang in there and keep praying, including the Hedge of Thorns prayer.
Sorry I haven't been checking your thread. It's been a stressful week at work and in my personal life. It's been emotionally challenging for me as well.
CM,
For some reason, my recent Emails and study has centered around Jobs story. This excerpt from a daily Email I receive was especially telling:
Neither Job nor any other man who has suffered a serious loss can ever fully understand why a catastrophe has happened. But if you're willing to seek God and surrender your life and your situation into his powerful hands, he'll do a work in you and through you that will restore your spirit and bring Him honor and glory.
The whole context can be found here:
http://www.everymansbattle.com/articles.asp?id=2148Keeping you in prayers,
N.
CM,
A verse that I came across and comforted me in a similar situation:
Psalm 57:
1 Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me,
for in you my soul takes refuge.
I will take refuge in the shadow of your wings
until the disaster has passed.
Seek Him out, pour your cares on Him. Christ walked the earth and experienced every trial we will.
Hebrews 4:
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Empathizing your pain,
N.
It's time for absolute faith, steadfast prayer and trust in the power of our Almighty Heavenly Father to restore THIS marriage
Best wishes & blessings
CM
At THIS point in time - bearing in mind the "affair" AND the possibility of my wife carrying a "child" - what say you Godly & WISE DB'ers about writing this letter to my wife -----> as suggested by one of my kind lady friends on this site
I think at some point in time, if it were me, I would write her a note (although I think another form of communication- not sure what-would be better since notes/emails is what you've been doing all this time) and tell her something like this.
Wife, I do not want to cause you distress and pain, that has not been my goal. My goal has been to save my marriage. I did not make a vow to you knowing that I would break it 12 years later. I made that vow to my Lord and to break that vow is against every single cell in my body. I am praying for God's wisdom because I do not want this conflict between us.
I hate it.
I pray that someday you will no longer loathe me and that you will understand what it is that I am standing for.
I am truly sorry for the pain that I have caused you.
sincerely, CM
What are you hoping to accomplish with this letter?
A quick message of encouragement for today
July 15, 2008
Love That Never Fails
Mary Southerland
Today's Truth
Hosea 3:1-5 (NCV) The LORD said to me again, "Go, show your love to a woman loved by someone else, who has been unfaithful to you. In the same way the LORD loves the people of Israel, even though they worship other gods and love to eat the raisin cakes." So I bought her for six ounces of silver and ten bushels of barley. Then I told her, "You must wait for me for many days. You must not be a prostitute, and you must not have sexual relations with any other man. I will act the same way toward you." In the same way, Israel will live many days without a king or leader, without sacrifices or holy stone pillars, and without the holy vest or an idol. After this, the people of Israel will return to the LORD their God and follow him and the king from David's family. In the last days, they will turn in fear to the LORD, and he will bless them.
Friend to Friend
A college man walked into a photography studio with a framed picture of his girlfriend. He wanted the picture duplicated, which involved removing it from the frame. When the photographer took the picture apart, he noticed an inscription written on the back of the photograph:
"My dearest Tom
I love you with all of my heart.
I love you more and more each day.
I will love you forever and ever.
I am yours for all of eternity."
The picture was signed "Diane" and contained a PS that read, "If we ever break up I want this picture back!"
Love that never gives up has no "PS" in it. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13:8 says, "Real love never fails". In this verse, "fails" literally means "collapses, falls or disintegrates". In other words, true love does not collapse under the weight of testing. It will not disintegrate when the pressure is on nor will it fall apart in the hard times. True love is strong and unconditional. True love is God's love, a love that we cannot understand or explain in human terms. The life of the Old Testament prophet, Hosea, powerfully illustrates this kind of love.
Hosea was married to a young woman named Gomer. Together, they had three children. Gomer blew it when she was unfaithful to Hosea, betraying the covenant of marriage. Hosea had every right to walk away, but love that never fails calls us up to higher choices that are beyond human reasoning. Supernatural choices demand supernatural action.
Love that never gives up chooses commitment.
Hosea 3:1a The LORD said to me again, "Go, show your love to a woman loved by someone else, who has been unfaithful to you.
Commitment is almost a foreign concept today. We want commitment to be easy and convenient, painless and cheap. Commitment is none of those things. Commitment never stops trying and never tries stopping. It is a pledge and bond, a covenant and contract. Commitment is a promise.
Cortes, the great Spanish explorer discovered what we know today as Mexico. He sailed in several boats with many men committed to conquering and settling an unknown land. When they arrived, the men looked around at an undiscovered world and were afraid. Cortes, sensing their fear, gathered them all on shore and set fire to their ships. He then announced, "Now there can be no turning back!" That is commitment; a choice never to turn back; a contract without escape clauses; a battle plan with no option for retreat. Love that never gives up can hold on because of commitment. It looks past the circumstance and locks its gaze on the promise.
Hosea had a decision to make. I am sure his feelings told him to run. After all, his heart must have been broken and to risk that kind of pain again seems absurd. His home was on the brink of disaster. Hosea must have been angry and hurt, not to mention embarrassed by Gomer's betrayal. Everyone knew what Gomer was doing because it had been going on for a long time. Hosea wasn't even sure that he was the father of his second and third child.
Hosea chose to stay because he was committed to God, to Gomer and to their marriage. Sometimes, being committed means sacrificing your own happiness for a time in order to redeem the relationship. God called Hosea to commitment -- the first time in marriage -- and now He calls him to show his love "again". The word "show" means "to be a friend or ally". Love that never fails focuses on the needs of others and chooses commitment.
Let's Pray
Father, I have to admit that it is so much easier to turn and run instead of staying simply because of commitment. Forgive me for judging others instead of loving them and giving them the same grace that you have given to me. Please help me to see these difficult people as You see them, through eyes of unconditional love and mercy. Give me the strength to overcome betrayal and hurt in my own life. Help me see the needs around me and then do something about those needs. In Jesus' name, Amen.
Now It's Your Turn
Right now, think of the hardest person in your life to love. Ask God to love them through you, to let you see them through His eyes. Write that person a note of encouragement this week, in Jesus' name.
More from the Girls
I must admit that the story of Hosea and Gomer makes me a little uncomfortable. When I tally the score, Hosea has more than enough points to ditch Gomer. Instead, he not only loves her, but pursues her and forgives her even when she doesn't seem repentant. That doesn't seem fair to me! Love that never fails does not deal in fairness but in grace and we are never more like Him than when we love the unlovable.
If you would like to hear the amazing story of Hosea and Gomer, check out Mary's CD, Love that Never Fails.
Thanks for that message.
It has recently been on my thoughts lately how some of these people who 'have all the answers' for what to do with our prodigal spouses would have consulted Paul if he told them about the 'thorn in his side' he had(without knowing what God told him).
I'm sure there would be all kinds of, "Well, you need to...", and "You shouldn't accept that...", "God wouldn't want you to...", "You need to take care of yourself...", "You deserve to be happy...".
Yet what did Paul do? He was obedient and cried out repeatedly to his Heavenly Father to remove the 'ailment'. What did God say?
[2 Corinthians 12:8-10] "My grace is sufficient for you".
How many of us really want to tackle that passage head on??
I agree with 4Kids CM - just what will the letter to your W achieve?
She wants a D, which is against your religion so you say no. So the message she gets is your religion is more important than her. I am not saying that is right or wrong.
It is unlikely it will bring her back, more likely you'll get it returned with the words "give me my divorce!!!!" written on it.
But will it make YOU feel better with yourself? Are you feeling good about yourself? Do you need your W to understand your religion? Why? If you are happy with your God then why should it matter what she thinks? or anyone else for that matter? By being a Christian you are doing what you want to and it's not hurting anyone else, so why does it matter what anyone else thinks? Do you want friendship with your W? Why?
I don't mean to make it seem like I am attacking you, just provoking food for thought.
I know you are deeply religious, and I respect that, but I'm seeing a guy dogmatically following the rules laid down centuries ago in a foreign language which have been translated and possibly mis-interpreted over the years. This is why i told you to go look inside yourself recently. To hear what you would call the clear, small voice of calm. You're still looking to emails, the words of others to find ... what? I am so sorry if you feel attacked here, it's not my aim. I'm trying to help you feel the peace that appears to elude you. “Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.”
What do you want now - don't write what you think you SHOULD want ... how would you have your life be?
Jumping in if I may, from my experience to much talk and laying it out even by the written word seems to cause more distance and strife. Until the one who walks away shows some interest in the LBS and a desire to know thoughts and feelings a genuine heart to heart doesn't happen.
I'm thinking a silent strength and sturdy stand like a fence would show and convey character and integrity that words would pale from.
JMO
cire
Let me clarify my question:
I wasn't questioning whether a letter should be written or not. I wanted to help CM contemplate the reasons for sending it in the first place.
IMHO sending a letter can be very healthy. You get thoughts out of your head and onto paper. It doesn't matter if the other person reads it or not. It doesn't demand a response like a phone call implies. It can be tucked away and saved for years, or thrown away. It cannot be misquoted like a conversation can be. The peace sometimes comes that you did the right thing, regardless if the other person reads it or not.
I did this recently with an adult son that has cut off all contact with me. I felt a desire to reach out to him, to let him know I loved him and I was committed to doing whatever possible to repair any damage I had caused in our relationship. I started out by saying that I was writing to let him know my feelings and if he didn't care and wanted to read no further and throw the letter in the trash it was his perogative. I stuck it on the windshield of his car at work.
I don't know if he got it, maybe even the wind took it away and he never saw it. But for me it has brought peace. Those thoughts of doing something, saying something, taking the initiative and breaking the silence are answered. For me, I can say I did the right thing and let it go. Peace. Leave the rest up to God.
CM, I just want you to identify the why first. Then everything else will follow. An old quote comes to mind, "If you don't know where you are, you'll never know where you are headed".
I've also heard prudent suggestions of going ahead and writing the letter, then putting it away for a week. After a week, pick it back up and see if it still needs to be sent.
N.
I agree with 4Kids CM - just what will the letter to your W achieve?
She wants a D, which is against your religion so you say no. So the message she gets is your religion is more important than her. I am not saying that is right or wrong.
It is unlikely it will bring her back, more likely you'll get it returned with the words "give me my divorce!!!!" written on it.
But will it make YOU feel better with yourself? Are you feeling good about yourself? Do you need your W to understand your religion? Why? If you are happy with your God then why should it matter what she thinks? or anyone else for that matter? By being a Christian you are doing what you want to and it's not hurting anyone else, so why does it matter what anyone else thinks? Do you want friendship with your W? Why?
I don't mean to make it seem like I am attacking you, just provoking food for thought.
I know you are deeply religious, and I respect that, but I'm seeing a guy dogmatically following the rules laid down centuries ago in a foreign language which have been translated and possibly mis-interpreted over the years. This is why i told you to go look inside yourself recently. To hear what you would call the clear, small voice of calm. You're still looking to emails, the words of others to find ... what? I am so sorry if you feel attacked here, it's not my aim. I'm trying to help you feel the peace that appears to elude you. “Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.”
What do you want now - don't write what you think you SHOULD want ... how would you have your life be?
Ouch!!
This news is very sketchy to me CM, what do you base the pregnant thing on?
Ian
Estimated my wife is at least 4 months pregnant
1. I didn't mean to hurt you, that was never my intention.
2. I think in light of your previous post, the letter is a good idea. it's short and lovely, and expects no reply.
and let's repeat 1 again - I didn't mean to hurt or upset you, I'm sorry that i did.
Just wanted to check in and lend an ear(or an eyeball I guess
) if you need one.
N.
Hello Everyone
It's been ages
since I've posted as soooooo much has been going on & over the next few days I hope to post some updates
It's kinda confirmed that my wife will be having her lover's child on / around the 15th January 2009
Incidentally our Heavenly Father has kept us out of court despite the date of my wife's Walk Out being over two years ago already (09th November 2006)
Anyways, take care everyone and keep in touch & STAND in the gap
Best wishes & blessings
CM
"There can be no TEST-imony of a restored marriage without a TEST"
PS: I thought I would post this as encouragement for everyone
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REVIVE MY SPOUSE'S HEART!
"I was enraged by his sinful greed; I punished him, and hid my face in anger, yet he kept on in his willful ways. I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will guide him and restore comfort to him, creating praise on the lips of the mourners in Israel. Peace, peace, to those far and near," says the LORD. "And I will heal them." Isaiah 57:17-19
Your Lord sees your spouse's heart and the circumstances they are living in right now. God also sees and knows all about your pain and suffering. He will heal and touch their hardened rebellious heart.
Will you believe? Will you stand in the gap with unconditional love for your spouse? As we enter into the month of February, which is know by many to be the month of love, may you pray fervently for your spouse's heart to be touch and changed by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Many years ago, when my husband was living in sin, I kept crying out to my Lord seeking to know if He wanted me to pray for Bob and for our marriage to be restored. One of the many scriptures given to me was the scripture above in Isaiah 57:17-19. What a promise from my Lord. "Lord, go and touch my spouse's rebellious, unclean heart.
Where is your spouse right now?
Many spouses who are living in sin are blatantly doing things that no one who knew them before ever thought they would do. They have completely changed their thoughts, behavior, and moral values. Often these men and women were actively involved in serving the Lord. Now they do not even consider the high cost of having sexual immorality in their marriage. They seem not to
care about the pain and suffering of their children.
Why is this happening?
Never forget that they have fallen into Satan's trap, who is out to steal, kill, and destroy every mate and marriage. Your spouse has become blinded and deceived to logic and reasoning. They seem to have no common sense. They have given up all moral value, often exposing their children to other men and women who are living in a sinful lifestyle. They are running in disobedience from their Lord
God, who created them.
"These are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to listen to the LORD's Instruction." Isaiah 30:9
What can you do today to help your spouse? They do not want to talk to you. They want to be left alone and live their own lifestyle of sin. You can pray and speak scriptures with your spouse's name in them, doing spiritual warfare in the heavenlies, where the true battle is going on for their soul. As you read your Bible daily, notice a verse that is powerful, stop, and personalize it, praying that one scripture at that very moment as a prayer for your spouse.
Here is an example:
"Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. Put away perversity from your mouth; keep corrupt talk far from your lips. Let your eyes look straight ahead, fix your gaze directly before you. Make level paths for your feet and take only ways that are firm. Do not swerve to the right or the left; keep your foot from evil." Proverbs 4:23-27
Your spouse is not your enemy. This is a spiritual battle that you need to learn to fight through the power of prayer and through God's Word. There is such power in praying and speaking God's Word!
"So is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." Isaiah 55:11
Stand on that powerful promise! Dear stander, do not become weary in shooting our Lord's powerful weapons of warfare. Any of us who have loved ones who have been become blinded, deceived and are trapped in Satan's camp, need to be faithful, diligent, and tenacious in our prayer life. In God's perfect timing, the chains of sin and bondages will break loose, by the power of our Lord God.
If you keep speaking and hammering the Word's of God into the mountain of your sinful circumstances, one day your mountain will suddenly disappear by the power of our Lord God. "Lord, remove my spouse's heart of stone. May You touch and change my spouse heart and resurrect our dead marriage."
"Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them from their distress. He brought them out of darkness and the deepest gloom and broke away their chains. Let them give thanks to the LORD for his unfailing love and his wonderful deeds for men." Psalm 107:13-15
God bless,
Charlyne Steinkamp
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Standing along with you.
Merry Christmas CM!
N.
Condident - OM's child... that's a hard one to take...You have certainly been on a very very very long road. I am hurting for you.
Thank you for your re-post of encouraging words of faith.
Hey CM, first of all... Merry christmas....
secondly, I am sorry that you now have confirmation even though you were already pretty sure of it anyway.
Keep your head up my friend.
Ian
Standing along with you.
Merry Christmas CM!
N.
Thank you 4kids
The Richest Blessings to you to over this time!!
Did you spend Christmas without your beloved spouse for another year? Are you discouraged and ready to give up on your precious spouse and marriage? I pray that you will continue to seek the Lord's will in your life and marriage every day and always believe in God's promises regardless of what you see with your physical eyes. May I remind you a very strong fact that is important for you today, "The holidays are not over!"
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways
my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than
the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts
than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
How are you feeling today?
Yes, Bob and I know you are fighting many emotions and you may be feeling discouraged, frustrated, and possibly doubting that your marriage will ever be restored. You may have not seen your spouse this Christmas or maybe you saw your spouse with the other person as they were picking up your children as you had to split up your time for the holidays. I pray that you have read the Saturday Testimonies which are just the beginning of the testimonies of what the Lord has been doing around the world this week.
Do not give up because the holidays are not over. Please continue to fast, praying favorite scriptures with your spouse's name in them, as well as praying for all prodigal spouses around the world during New Year's Day. I would personally pray and fast until I receive a spiritual breakthrough of your circumstances.
God's time table is not yours.
Bob and I are hearing that you may just be standing, but not praying fervently.
Let me share from "How To Pray When You Don't Know What to Say" by Elmer L. Towns: "Since life is a journey, we need to be continually in warfare prayer. We will never quit struggling until we arrive at our destination. We should forget about winning a once-and-for-all victory in this life or about obtaining a perfect tranquility in which we never have to engage in warfare prayer again. Victories typically lead to counter- attack by the enemy, so our next prayer challenge may be even greater than past prayer challenges."
hey, are you still on here?
hey, are you still on here?
Hiya ST - I lurk from time to time
How are you?
Best wishes & blessings
CM
PS - my wife had her lover's child on 19th January 2009 and called her Elizabeth (my mum's name) but I'm not sure if this is something to do with her boyfriends family name/s??
good thank you.
How are YOU doing?
good thank you.
How are YOU doing?
I'm doing VERY well in all areas of my life - now that my wife has had her "lovers" child there is some confusion, however; about the way I'm perceiving the stand for my marraige to be healed
I know, from ur email, it's sounds like things are a bit more confusing now.
I know, from ur email, it's sounds like things are a bit more confusing now.
Confused_Me eh ST
Wow, it's been a while so here's my latest AND trusting all of my FRIENDS here are well - my apologies for not visiting here to check on all of you, though
Hiya Everyone
Well, by now I'm hoping you've all had a chance to mull over the last email I sent AND do some fervent praying as I have done in the past few days.
WHAT HAS LED US UP TO THIS POINT IS A TELEPHONE CALL I RECEIVED FROM my wife about 5 to 6 weeks ago where she asked whether I would consider settling out of court - ie: proceeding with a D-settlement
I'm unsure of what has prompted this latest point of contact, although I suspected she might want to make marriage plans with her new man??
My wife's baby (her boyfriends baby - not mine) was born on the 19th of January 2009 and I'm guessing things have settled down somewhat for my wife and she is getting used to being a mother...
02nd MAY 2009 @09h00
I "attended" the meeting with someone I know from my friends Church (this young lady is heavily involved with Church Ministry and counseling of families, etc). We decided to meet in a neutral place - that being a small outside restaurant in the area.
My wife was as always, on time and as I had been waiting for my friend to to arrive, we were a few minutes late but I had sent my wife an sms (text message) to say we were on our way.
Upon arriving, I noticed a particular car in the parking lot and immediately realized whom my wife was bringing to the meeting to back her up - yes, it was her (our bridesmaid) from our wedding.
Remember now that my wife has had a baby with her boyfiend - my wifes bridesmaid is married to my wife's boyfriends brother
Introductions were made by yours truly and we sat down – a few pleasantries were exchanged and my wifes bridesmaid immediately enquired as to which Church my friend belonged to – I had NOT mentioned she was a "Church Goer" to my wife (prior to the meeting) - I had only said she was a counselor and that we should have a mediator to keep things tidy.
- At the beginning of the sit down I surprised everyone saying that we should pray to open the meeting -
My wife seemed very anxious to get a "final" answer from me and launched into enquiring about the "proposal" she had made - I thanked her for her thoughts and mentioned that much of the house was due to my Mum and immediately my wife responded by saying what a good friend & mother in law my Mum was and that I should not forget she died in my wifes's arms - there were quite a few tears at this point and my wife seemed to be genuine about her feelings about my Mum.
The last "lawyers letter" I received indicated my wife wanted R 500 000-00 (1/2 million Rand) to settle matters out of court and throughout this round of discussions my wife is only requesting R250 000-00 - in other words ½ of what she wanted previously.
She was unaware of the purchase costs my Mum had to incur for MY house and also about Mum's inheritance that I duly put into the bond on MY house - remember when my Mum and I initially bought this house it was put in my wife's name in order to protect this family financially in case something happened to my (then new) business!
When my Mum & I met with the conveyancer to effect the purchase of the house, he specifically asked my Mum and I if we REALLY wanted to put the house in my wife's name, to which I stated "YES, of course I trust her - she's my wife"
At the time there were also financial considerations for putting the house in wife's name as I already owned another property and recent amendments to the tax laws again made us weary as my business was so new and I was not assured of a regular income - I got started in the new business at the end of 1999 and a year later I purchased the house with my Mum.
At one point my friend interjected with a marital viewpoint about me being there for my wife and basically still standing for our marriage - my wife had pointed out (twice) that she SAW I was not the same man she walked out on (not that she acknowledged any abandonment though) and that I had indeed grown.
She went on to say that her love for me had died a long time ago and that whilst she lived with me, I killed her love a little bit each day
My wife also mentioned that even thought I had told her it was not my job to make her happy, she just could not live like that and she deserved happiness but did not delve any further as she said this was painful for her.
At some point the bridesmaid managed to shut down the personal side of the discussion down saying "We're not here for that"
Anyway a few figures were thrown around and I mentioned that I would need to know what transfer duties would be coming my way and any other costs - my wife would not drop below the R250k mark saying that it was a very generous offer and that she was not going after my business, cars, policies, etc.
My wife seemed anxious to end the meeting and gestured to her bridesmaid about leaving - apparently the bridesmaid had to "be somewhere" and the waiter was taking his time with the bill...
During the course of the discussions, I had made light by offering up some of my humour and I think it was not seen as "put-on" and I think as far as possible I was "myself" and I was grateful for my friend's presence as she filled in some of the quieter moments and we were able to introduce "The 5 Love Languages" books into the conversation as food for further thought...
At no stage did my wife mention her "boyfriend" neither did her new baby enter into conversation and I made special note not to pry or bring up ANY recriminations about what she had put me through the last 2,5 years, etc.
I'm not sure where to from here - I have it on good authority that my wife & her boyfriend had a fight (possibly AFTER our meeting) as he is of the impression my wife is letting me off lightly financially...
At least there is some discussion now, albeit only to push the divorce through - I have mentioned to my wife I am still against this notion and she in turn has acknowledged she knows it is against my belief system...
WOW
It's been sooooooooooo long since I visited all of you and so much seems to have taken place since my last post
So, what's happened this year - my wife remarried in September & I've enrolled in a Divorce Recovery course.
According to what I've learned there, by virtue of my wife remarrying, has released me from any further obligation to her in terms of a spiritual marital bond..
I know the Rejoice Marriage Ministries have a another version of this - the testimony of Sondra and Andy comes to mind, so in some ways I'm not convinced of the "release" but my new life would be extremely difficult for my wife to now entertain in any event
My dancing is going fairly well - mainly in the Ballroom as I've battled wit a Latin American partner for a while now.
I did my first stage show in September this year - great fun and an invaluable dance experience - I have all the photos up on Face Book for those who might be interested..
I know this was a quick update so we';ll see who responds to this posting - or indeed who is still lurking
Best wishes & blessings
CM
Oh, I forgot to mention - next week on the 09th November 2010 will mark the 04th Anniversary of my wife dropping the bomb!!
CM Are you ok with moving on with your life now that this is all over?
Have you considered getting some professional counseling/therapy for yourself to deal with this phase of letting go? You still seem very much attached to your ex wife even though she is now married to another man, you still call her your wife.
CM Are you ok with moving on with your life now that this is all over?
Have you considered getting some professional counselling/therapy for yourself to deal with this phase of letting go? You still seem very much attached to your ex wife even though she is now married to another man, you still call her your wife.
Hi robex
Thanks for your comments - I'm doing a divorce care course at the moment and have been through an extensive self discovery process with a counsellor...
I'm unsure what to call her exactly I guess - partly due to standing for my marrige for so long AND "ex" just sounds like a swear word (much like the word "divorce" does), ha ha ha
...and for the sake of this forum I can't call her by her real name which would have been my default choice
As I said, I don't think she would fit in with my new life anyway as it's quite different to what she knew and I do enjoy what I do now (the dancing) so much that whom ever decides to join me on this path would have to accept - it's been my refuge during this entire process!
Greetings everyone
I thought I would pop by on the eve of the 8th anniversary of the bomb being dropped on me (my 9-11) that being the 09th November 2014....
Many of you who were kind enough to proverbially walk this road with me (and for which I am so grateful you did)are now valued friends on Facebook so you will know what my life is now like.
More later...
For the rest of you - I am still single and have only dated for about 3 months (about 7 months AFTER my Divorce was finalised (signed off).
To be honest - my interest in dating has very mixed emotions for various reasons and part of me is a bit numb when it comes to "trying to put myself out there"
In the upside - I still have my dancing and for that I have been awarded Springbok Colours (Protea Colours) which has allowed me to represent my country (South Africa) in Latin American Dancing & for which I really feel blessed, humbled & privileged :-)
Good for you friend. I'm new here so I will definitely check out your story. I wish you all the best.
CM: Wow, it has been some time to see an Email pop up from this site. Certainly good to hear the dancing is going well. :-) Life has progressed on my end, am remarried and God can bring healing to brokenness, although the scars do remain(as you well know on the eve of your 8th).
Just commented to my wife the other day about this site and how every day there seems to be new members (as evidenced by HPoirot above) that come facing the same questions - ? When will I feel normal again? How long does it take to detach? How long should I wait? etc.
Unfortunately, as you and I are veterans to these horrible events, we know all too well there are no quick fixes and each one of us has our own unique journey to go through. And saying "eventually things do get better" is in most times 99% correct, but of literally no help in the struggle for someone deep in the immediate emotional turmoil of a loved one walking away...
To those new to this site: Engage yourself, make connections(lots of good ones here) and do as much diligent introspection as possible (of course hobbies like dance are awesome too ;-) ) - those things should keep you busy enough so you are not distracted by all of the crazy antics of your spouse gone astray.
God bless CM, Keep on dancin!!!
4kids