My W can't decide between me and OM.

The scene now is much as it has been for the last week. My wife still wants to live with me as a roommate (where I do lots of work, errands and childcare, help and support her as I normally would... but don't expect sex), and she still wants to be with OM twice a year on vacations.

The current problem is that she is still in contact with him via email. They are both away on vacations right now (not together), but when they return next week I suspect that she will start seeing him again and probably take their EA to a physical level. How am I supposed to live with that?

My question is, should I continue to agree to live as roommates and allow her to have this affair... to have her cake and eat it too? Or, should I leave. This might be better for my mental health, and it would allow her to see what life without me is like. If I do leave, I would leave the country entirely, making it impossible for us to see each other or for me to see my young children. Also, the OM is leaving the country in a few months anyway. So, she would be here alone without either of us.

Does anybody see the merit in staying living as roommates? She does claim she is feeling more affection and closeness with me... yet she is also telling OM how much she wants to be with him. If I stay, and he is out of the country, that might be good, though they would still be in contact via email.

I simply don't know. Help!

Questioning

Q -

In your earlier posts, it sounded as if you wanted to work this out and were going to do what it took to do that.

Your worry now is about something that you think will happen, not something that has happened yet. You are driving yourself crazy with it, and it hasn't yet happened.

You can't control your W right now, and in reality you never could. She probably isn't making any sense to you right now either, because she is totally focused on the other man.

So if you are committed to having this work, stay the course. It is going to take some time.

Everybody has a line though, and you have to decide what yours is. When she crosses that line, make your stand and be firm if that is how you really feel. Once you do that though, there is usually no going back.

It will be hard.

S

If you agree with her developing a relationship with the OM you will very likely end up divorced. If she wants a business arrangement which you live as roommates than you might as well get divorced. At least you won't have to put up with your wife's nonsense and move on with your life. The point is the longer you put up with your wife's
craziness the more likely your marriage is going to crash and die. It is important to stand firm and not allow yourself to be part of her drama . The message that you will be delivering to your wife is that you are not going to be there supporting her while she sees if the relationship with the OM becomes serious enough so that she can dump you. Wishful thinking that suddenly she is going fall back in love with you, if you cooperate with going along with her affair, is not going to work. It will only make you feel more resentful and make her view you as a weak man. She has to see that you are not willing to accept a marriage that is a sham and that even though you love her you are not afraid to move on with or without her.

Thanks for the advice. Both of you have advocated drawing a firm line about what can and cannot be tolerated within this relationship, and I am struggling with that.

My wife returned from a vacation this morning and has already emailed the other man. She tells him that she wants to work things out with me and feels closer to me. Then she goes on to say that she wants to have more email contact, more meetings, and still wants to go to Europe with him. In addition, she told him that while she was buying lingerie she was only thinking of him!

How can I continue to deal with this? Should I tell her to have no more contact with him? Is that placing demands on her, and should I try to avoid that? Or, should I just wait it out?

Q

Your wife senses that you are afraid to stand up to her. As a result she feels free to carry on with this affair without worrying about the consequences. IMO, you are helping to plant the seeds of the destruction of your marriage. Only by making it clear to her that you will not stay married to her if she is going to play footsie with another man can you hope to possibily save your marriage. Showing weakness will end your marriage.

Hi Q -

Seems like you are asking for a course of action..Your W wants to be roommates, so maybe that is ALL you should be.

Roommates aren't necessarily friends, or do everything together. Maybe you need to get a bit of your own life?

Maybe you don't say a thing to her and:

Open a seperate checking account, paying your portion of the bills (1/2)?

Have a different bedroom in the house.

Start doing some things you always wanted to do. Think big....maybe learn to fly? Maybe scuba dive? Maybe a trip somewhere for an adventure you want to do? Hunting or fishing?

Also think small....maybe join a bowling/darts/pool/basketball/soccer league? Something that gets you out of the house a night or two a week?

Maybe join a gym and work that into your schedule a few days a week?

The thing is, you can't control her. You can only control yourself. You don't want to end it yet, and you aren't ready to draw a line yet, so be indifferent. Don't be very available. When you must talk to her, be cheerful, be direct and exude that you are enjoying life. You might have to fake this at first, but don't ever fall back into being needy. She has to see that she isn't the only one that is looking at life differently, and it sounds like she isn't 100% committed to leaving either, which is good.

The thing about drawing a line is, there is really no going back on it. If she reacts negatively to it, you would have to live with it.

What do you think?

S

If you are not at the point of wanting to divorce than I would suggest getting a legal separation (so you are not accused of abandonment), separating bank and credit card accounts, and then moving into another apartment. At least this way you will be able to emotionally detach and not care what she is doing and with whom. It will help retain your sanity and not make you feel even more like wimp. During that time you could focus on improving yourself emotionally and spiritually. Once you reach the point where you feel more confident and stronger emotionally the solution as to what to do with your marriage will become more obvious.

Thanks Davis and Sinjin. It is interesting how varied the advice and perspectives can be. I appreciate what Davis had to say, for if I read my own writing without being in the situation, I would see myself as being incredibly weak. However, being in the actual situation, my position was certainly not one of weakness in the eyes of my wife or myself. She was the weak one, unable to take a firm stance and decide what she wanted for her own future. I was strong by being committed, understanding and solid in the face of so much hurt and betrayal. I know that she was impressed and amazed, especially by the emotional intelligence (something women don't necessarily expect from a man).

The stance I was taking was almost exactly that advocated by Sinjin. I was about to set up another room in the house as my own, and go on a vacation and learn to scuba dive. However, I am already very active and our two lives are not so intertwined that I don't have my own life. So, it was not necessary to get too carried away.

So, there I was ready to go alone and just be roommates, giving her the utmost distance to decide what she wanted and allowing her to see me at my best. However, she came back from her short vacation with a girlfriend and we had some more great discussions. She said she was ready to commit to this marriage and realized that it would not be possible to see or communicate with this other man. Her plan to vacation with him was abandoned, and she realized that, at best, he could only ever be a friend. She said she would email him only once a month, and I said she could see him one more time... in public with our good friend as chaperone.

So, we are both feeling great right now. However, I also know that she has already emailed him twice today! I know that it is going to be incredibly hard for her to break this pattern of behaviour. I know that she is not lying to me, but that she is finding it impossible to keep her word.

My plan is simply to be the most amazing husband that I can possibly be. For I know that he is leaving the country in five months, and that if we can get through these next five months without a major breakdown on her part (physical encounter with him) then we can get through this and the thought of him should quickly fade.

As far as the syping goes, I will continue to monitor the email messages they are sending one another, but will not allow myself to be tortured by what they say to one another because I know my wife's heart and intentions are good, and that she may milk this relationship for all the drama she can, but I don't believe she will act on it. If we are able to get through this entire ordeal in only 6 months, then it will be a miracle.

Does anyone have any thoughts that may be useful at this time? Any personal experiences or suggestions that may prove appropriate to this scenario?

Q

Aaargh,

What is going on with this woman, my wife? She is telling me that she wants to work on this marriage, wants to be only with me, and sees the OM only as a friend. Yet, she continues to email him and tell him that since her husband is going to be out of town this month so much, maybe they could meet up.

I have the sense that she is seeking to take their relationship to a new and physical level. She probably doesn't want to be with him forever, but she wants to experience all that this affair has to offer before they are separated when he moves. I can see this, but the idea of her sending him romantic emails and lusting after him, trying to concoct ways for them to meet so they can grope one another is too painful.

What does one do? Do I just sit back and let her continue in this vein. Do I allow them to sleep together if that's the choice she makes? What is worse, to confront her and tell her I know what's going on, or to wait for them to sleep together and then try to deal with my disgust and anger?

What, if any, is the advice? Anyone.

It is me, Questioning, again with more angst. I know that my W is trying to arrange a meeting with OM in two days while I am out of town. She and I did agree that she would see him in person one more time. I wonder if she thinks that this is the last time, or if she will then try to create other meetings. I think the latter case will prove to be true.

The other day while talking to my wife (as we are getting along great and living life as if nothing is/was different) I told her that my fear is that we'll just return to where we were in our marriage, and this will cause her to return to her relationship with OM because she will still have unmet needs. I realized that during the time of crisis, the two of us had some amazing conversations and both felt alive, passionate and excited (although maybe with some negative emotions). Now that the overt crisis is over, life is returning to a rather boring flat calm.

My wife said that her emails with OM were now boring, and I said that this is probably because they are no longer full of possibilities and sexual innuendo. She soon fixed this up by spicing up her next email to him. So, it is very apparent what need of my wife's is being met by the relationship with OM, and not being met in our marriage. It is the passion, the excitement, and the emotions. How does one ignite these though when you work, eat, raise children and deal with finances? How to keep that fire alive 24/7?

What do you do?

Q

In reading your posts I wonder if you are writing in jest or you are a man who has no confidence and self respect. If your posts are real and you are going to condone your wife meeting with the OM while you are out of town then it is only a question of time until your marriage goes down the drain.

Q-

I just wanted to say that I believe your posts ARE real, and that your pain is real, and I also believe your situation is quite common. I do not think you are being "weak," or that your marriage will necessarily go down the drain just because your wife is currently refusing to give up OM, and you are currently choosing to tolerate that. Take heart!... most affairs do not dissolve marriages! It happens, of course, but the odds are on your side that the affair will fail and your marriage will prevail.

I am currently in your wife's shoes, and my H is currently in your shoes. I don't have any "answers" for you, but I do have some first-hand insights into your situation.

There is a diffence between intention and behavior. When your wife says she "intends" to split with OM, she is probably NOT purposely trying to deceive you or play games or make your life hell or take advantage of the situation. It is more likely that a big part of her truly does desire to split with OM and restore her marriage. However, her feelings for OM cause her to remain in CONFLICT about this. Because of the conflict, she is not yet able to bring her behavior into "alignment" with her verbalized intentions to you. Get it? So for now, it's best to take what she says with a grain of salt... that will prevent you from going insane every time she does not follow up her words with the promised behavior. In fact, you may find it helpful to take my H's approach... he told me once "don't tell me what you're GOING to do about it, tell me what you've DONE." You might tell her that when she has avoided ALL contact with OM for a month, you will consider the affair truly over, and that you will be extremely proud of her when she is able to pull that off. That will give her a concrete little goal to hang onto when the going gets rough, and it will get rough for her. My intuition is that she is in love with this OM, not just "lusting."

It sounds like you have not confronted OM. I think that is a very wise course of action for many reasons that I won't get into.

Stop reading your wife's e-mails! This is ridiculous. Be a grown up. If you want to know what is going on between her and OM, it's much better to sit her down, take her hand, and ASK. If you don't think you can get an honest answer, then your marriage has a bigger problem than this affair, and that would be lack of authenticity with eachother. Work on creating a spirit of unconditional acceptance and positive regard between you and wife, so that she will disclose even the most difficult aspects of her life and heart to you honestly, without you needing to spy on her like an enemy. Does that make sense to you... trying to have a marriage worth saving, if you are going to take the trouble to save it? I hope so.

Unless you want to embark on the adventure of an "open marriage, you CANNOT have your marriage back if W is to remain "friends" with OM, or in any contact with him at all. Your wife will probably not realize this till she experiences that fact for herself. You cannot put toothpast back in a tube. This relationship between W and OM is not platonic and never will be, or ever can be. That MEANS that if she is "just being friends" with him, she is still having an EMOTIONAL AFFAIR with another man. Make no mistake about that whatsoever. If all she does is e-mail him once a year to say "Happy New Year" she is still having an emotional affair with another man. She will get mad if you make this point, so do it sensitively and don't keep harping on it. And don't expect her to buy it, she won't.

Her maintaining any contact at all with OM will just keep the affair on "low simmer" and keep it a constant threat to your M. Also, it will keep her heart split, her hopes for OM alive, and her attentions divided. THE OM MUST GO. She knows that, way deep down. But right now, her fantasy that she can remain friends with OM and still have a healthy marriage is a "crutch" she needs in order to BEGIN the process of giving up the affair. That's normal.

Should you condone the crutch? That's a tough one. There are pros and cons... I vote yes, because she'll try to keep him in the loop as a friend anyway, whether you "accept it" or not. And, it sounds like she's the type who'll have no problem lying to you about this if she needs to, unfortunately... So you might as well condone a "friendship" between her and OM if you must, and win points for being "understanding." I would tell her that you condone it only because you have complete faith that she will come to realize that the quality of your M will be best served by avoiding all contact with OM."

Then, you will have to hope that she eventually DOES come to realize that a "friendship" with OM (read: Emotional Affair) is a bad idea. As she tries to continue the friendship/EA she will realize that this will "cost" her in some emotional ways. The more emotional needs YOU can meet, the less likely she will be willing to keep paying the price of the EA.

But right now, your W is not even to the point of trying to take it down to a friendship/EA! She is still trying to meet him, and you really need to talk with her about WHY. Is it to "say goodbye?" Is it because she feels the affair has not "run it's course?" Is it because she wants to explore a relationship with OM that she would consider leaving her marriage for?

Married men often continue affairs "for fun", because they simply enjoy the pleasure of being with the OW. It's often no more complicated than that for them. This is usually NOT not the case when married WOMEN stray. With women, things are complicated!! They are not usually just in it for the thrills or the diversion. Women are EMOTIONAL creatures. Chances are, if she wants to see OM, there is a REASON. A PLAN in her pretty little head. A plan besides just "fun." Try to get the honest scoop on her plan, from her, not by spying. That way you can dialogue with her about it. Isn't that what married people are supposed to do, openly discuss problems and decide what to do about them, as a team?

Good luck!

A.

Thanks Annalise for your great input. It is interesting for me to read others thoughts and inputs, and to guage their intrepretation of our situation based on what I write.

What I need to say is that my wife and I do have excellent communication and are both trained in this field. She is also extremely honest, and last night told me that she had arranged her final meeting with OM, in a public place with her friend acting as chaperone. My W is very honest when she speaks to me, and we have amazingly frank and rational discussions about the emotional aspects of our relationship, her affair, etc. We are both very well-read on the subject and quite cognizant of the stages of affairs, the reasons for affairs, etc. When she tells me something, she believes it; but as you say, Annalise, she is not always able to follow through on her intentions.

As for my strength, I can't help but feel slightly insulted by Davis' comment. I am extremely strong with my wife, and have more self-confidence and self-respect than average. I offer her all the support I can, I demand honesty from her, and I am allowing her to meet one more time so that she can bring some closure to things. I cannot make her stop seeing OM, but we have negotiated this meeting together and it makes sense to me to allow her that. I could tell her never to see him again, and she would agree to that; but it would seem to her like me controlling her and she would resent me for it. As well, I believe that she needs to bring closure to the affair, for her own good. She is just that kind of person.

As for the spying... she has been very honest with me and has not withheld any information. She has told me how many times they've met (4), that they have briefly kissed once, and she usually tells me when they email (sort of a confession). However, I still feel compelled to want to know what she says to him. It does hurt incredibly to hear her say that she wants him, and dreams of a night with him, etc, but I want to have this knowledge so I can determine how I need to act around her. I suppose I feel like I have information that gives me an advantage (not over her, but over the alternative), but it does come at a certain cost.

So, at this point we are just carrying on. I will be out of town much of this month, and she'll be home with the kids and her girlfriend who says she won't be accomplice to any kind of meetings or romance between W and OM. My theory is that I simply have to ride this rollercoaster and if I find myself in a position to negotiate, I will, but otherwise I need to let my W make her own decisions so that she can accept them and act upon them without resenting me. At the end of the day, I want her to look back and know that I acted honourably and respectfully, giving her the space to make her own decisions.

Thanks for the kind words, Annalise, I hope that you are able to work through your situation with as little pain and suffering as possible. It sounds as though you have all the resources.

Q

Q-

I really can't imagine how you stay sane reading her e-mails. I have written my OM the most worshipful, detailed, romantic, erotic stuff humanly imaginable. My H would probably NOT have had the strength wait this out had he been reading my e-mails. He saw just the subject line of one one time, by accident, and was mortified.

You say " I want to have this knowledge so I can determine how I need to act around her." Bear with me... so you are saying, if she is being a certain way with him (say romantic, or hesitant or upset) you THINK you know just how you are supposed to react to that for maximal strategy effect??? Well, even if you are a savvy manipulator (which you sound like!)

I don't think people are that predictable or easily manipulated. Too many other variables involved! I think you know that and are just being plain old nosy, quite frankly. Mark my words... one day she is going to say something to OM that is going to be so painful to you, you are going to have trouble accepting it, your W, and your M. That seems like self-sabotage to me.

"I will be out of town much of this month, and she'll be home with the kids and her girlfriend who says she won't be accomplice to any kind of meetings or romance between W and OM."

You being out of town... THIS IS VERY BAD TIMING! Your marriage is at stake. On the brink! Isn't there ANY POSSIBLE way you could be with her for at least three steady weeks after she (supposedly) wraps up with OM? This is critical...

Go to a web site called "Marriage Builders" ... Dr. Harley recommends that the W spend MAXIMAL time with her H right after break-up with OM. And that the H make maximal effort with loving gestures and positive, complimentary veralizations at this time. It considerably reduces the risk that she will fall back into contact with OM!! Remember, ... every time she falls back (recidivism) it makes it that much MORE likely she will fall back AGAIN the next time. Because recidivism is a habit in and of itself, in addition to the habit of the affair! You really need to be by her side at this time, that's my two cents.

A.

Hey Q -

I can tell you from my own experience that reading her email is bad for you. I collected every one of my wife's emails for two months, and had to listen to her lie looking me right in the eye, and it killed me. There is NO WAY you can make the changes you need to make in yourself while you are doing this.

I would advocate this: if you REALLY want to try to work this out - let this thing with your W run it's course. Try not to think about it as much as possible, just do what you need to do. It will be the hardest thing you will ever do in your life, but I personally think it is the only way you have a chance in your W.

Look, your wife saying one thing and doing the complete opposite is NORMAL in this case, no matter what you think of it. She is so swept up in the OM, you cannot base any of your decisions on how she acted in the past. The best you can do is let this go, and perhaps she will decide for herself that you are what she wants.

I know that all of this probably sounds insane to you. Oh, and I wouldn't be out of town if I were you. In this situation out of sight is out of mind.

QUIT READING HER MAIL, IT IS KILLING YOU!

S

I apologize if you felt insulted by my post.. I do not take any pleasure in seeing you in this situation. I can only respond to the information that you give. If the evidence that you present gives a picture of a wife who says one thing but in reality is really pursuing an affair than, in my opinion, it would be foolish to think that she has seen the light and really wants to rebuild the marriage. For example, informing the OM that she is buying lingerie with him in mind does not convey a picture of a wife who is seeking closure. What you need to understand is that people who are in affairs can give perfomances of being truthful and sincere that are worthy of academy awards. As for her needing to meet this OM for closure. That is a lot of hogwash. She can send a letter or even phone him to end this affair. Healing and getting over an affair cannot begin unless there is NC. Affairs are addictive. The only way to stop is to go cold turkey. That is why NC is so important so healing can begin. Affairs, like alcoholism or drug addiction, can lead to break up of marriages and families. IMO, one does not lend support to a destructive behaviour. That is why I do not agree with the advice that is given to allow an affair to run it�s course.

It has just been my experience that trying to get a cheating spouse to end an affair "cold turkey" backfires. Believe me, if there was some way you could get them to stop, and not resent you for it, I am all in.

Davis - have you had a personal experience like the one you talk about? Did you manage to get your spouse to quit "cold turkey" and work things out to stay with you? If you did, I would love to hear how it happened.

S

Thanks to you all, your advice is very helpful and very sound. I know the value of it, and I just have to be strong enough to take it to heart and stop my behaviours that are causing so much pain. As for being out of town, I had hoped that it might allow my W to think of me fondly, see me in a new light, and miss me. I will be gone a couple of days, home again, gone a couple of days... Hopefully this is not as harmful as you have all suggested.

Thanks for everything. I mean that. I'll keep you posted.
Q

PS: My wife did not follow through with her plan to meet OM for the last time while I was just away, though I don't know why yet since we haven't had a chance to talk.

I have been trying to take the good advice offered, but find that keeping tabs on my Ws conversations with OM is an addiction in and of itself. I have been good for two or so days, but today I faltered. What I learned is that OM is suggesting that the two of them meet in a hotel to "talk" and to say their final goodbye.

The two of them have not had any physical contact other than some holding and a very quick kiss. I am certain that if this meeting takes place, it will put that bar up a notch so that, at the very least, there will be prolonged kissing. I can easily imagine that they would end up in bed together... for what else is there to do in a hotel room? It is virtually inevitable. While I try to give my wife credit for being strong and virtuous, I'm not sure that she would be adverse to the idea of sleeping with him. Actually, I'm pretty sure she would welcome the idea. Naturally, I suspect that he would bed her in a second, even though by now he must have come to the conclusion that the affair can't last since this is supposed to be "the last meeting."

At this point my mind is reeling and my senses agitated to the point I am shaking. Should I try to avert this meeting? Should I email OM and tell him that if he has any contact with my W that I will alert his partner to his traitorous behaviour? He is still living with a woman who knows nothing of this whole affair.

I am so torn as to what to do. I could live with them seeing each other one last time, but in a public place. Unfortunately, my Ws friend wanted nothing to do with accompanying my W to see him one last time, so that didn't happen. Now my W feels that she needs to resort to seeing him privately, which, in my mind, is far worse and far more dangerous.

What to do? Should I try to prevent the meeting, or should I just let it happen and live with the consequences?

Q

Q -

I would say that you are right on, as far as meeting in a hotel room. There is nothing else to do there. If all they wanted to do was talk, they could meet in a park or something.

Let's look at this. If you do nothing, they will meet and you will find out what happened via your snooping. If they do have sex, what will you do?

Does your W know that the OM lives with a woman? Be prepared that if you alert the other woman, you will need to go with the facts as she will not want to believe it either. Also, your W might not take this act very kindly either. I wouldn't let that stop you though.

S

This soap opera will continue until you put your foot down and make it very clear to her that she is playing a very dangerous game that will end in destroying the marriage. If you don't think that her meeting in a hotel room is not going to end up with him boinking her you are dreaming. Of course, your wife knows that. Otherwise she wouldn't even consider meeting him there.
As I mentioned in my other posts her words to you about wanting to rebuild the marriage is not backed up by her actions. Furthermore, I would not be so sure that she has not had sexual encounters with him already. What this calls for is giving her a strong reality check. I would have your lawyer prepare a letter stating that you are not prepared to stay married to her since her intention is to commit adultery which will result in a divorce anyways. Since you are not prepared to stand by and allow this to happen you have given your lawyer instructions to begin the process to divorce her. If on the other hand, she chooses to stay married she will end her relationship with this OM immediately and show that she is committed to doing whatever is necessary to earn back your respect and trust.

Tonight my W and I went to a party that could have been a lot of fun, instead she didn't want to dance with me and practically ignored me the whole evening. When she came home she immediately sent a letter to OM saying that she really wants to see him, but realizes that if she does she'll probably end up leaving me. How am I supposed to take that?

Up to this point I have been the model of calm, controlled and incredibly tolerant and understanding. However, after reading this I drafted an email to OM saying that if I even suspect he has contacted my W in any way, I would alert his girlfriend whom he lives with (and my W is aware that they are living together since we have done things together).

At the last moment I sent the email to my W, telling her that I would send it to him also. Unless she comes up with some miracle solution, I do intend to send this tomorrow. Although, even as I write this I feel my anger subsiding and my resolve to follow through weakening since I have been advised through all my readings and all your support not to pressure and not to confront. But how can I not do something?

It seems that to let her continue is insane, since it will only entangle them further and lead to more and more intimacy between them and more alienation between us. We had such a wonderful time together on holidays just a few weeks ago. We even had sex. Where did that go? What is she thinking. Every time she feels slightly annoyed with me she contacts him.

Maybe this should tell me something. Will this make her annoyed, or will it be the wakeup call she needs? I truly believe, from what she tells me and what she writes to him that she wants to be able to stop contacting him, but she doesn't have the resolve. Will this help?

The other question that comes to mind is that if I make him choose between, in essence, my W and his girlfriend, will he make a stand and choose to keep contacting my W, leading her to believe that he really does love her more than I ever could (which is rubbish!)?

I am so overwrought right now, I don't know which direction to go. Has anyone been in this situation before? What would have happened to any of you if your spouse had put this ultimatum out there while you were having an affair?

-Q

What you have to accept is that you have no control over her behaviour. She is an adult with the right to make her own decisions. She made the choice to marry you and can make the choice to di
vorce you if she unwilling to stay in the marriage. Howerver, you have also the power to stay or leave a marriage if you do not agree with her behaviour. IMO,the way to stop this affair is to let know in no uncertain terms that you will not stay married to her if she continues the affair. I would show her that you are serious by cancelling all joint bank and credit card accounts, joint health policies etc. I would also hire a P.I. to get evidence on her affair. I would tell the OM's employer, his gf, your wife's parents etc as to what is going on. I would make lots and lot of noise. Once an affair is under the spotlight it stops being so appealing. Your wife needs to see that you are serious about divorcing her than standing by while she is in an adulterous relationship with the OM. That is when the fantasy balloon is going to burst.

You are at a crossroads here -

You can take Davis' advice and put your foot down. (I would get the PI first, then do the rest of what he says). I don't know if making noise about it works, as I did that in my situation and it did nothing positive for it.

There are a few other stratagems you could do here too. Instead of being there for her so much, you could 180 or LRT.

Everybody has a line though, and when you reach it you have to do what is comfortable to you. I can tell you in my situation I did some DBing without knowing it, made alot of mistakes too, but finally decided that I had done enough and had enough, and filed. Do I think about her? Yes, but I don't beat myself up about it. I did what I could.

You may be nearing that line yourself. Whichever you decide, don't beat yourself up about it. Just do the best you can.

Time really does heal wounds, and there really are other fish in the sea. Do for yourself, as Davis is right in saying that you can't control her. Time will pass and you will be happier with yourself, and maybe you will have her and maybe you won't, but you can feel good about yourself.

The only way to maintain a moderate sum of happiness in this life, is not to worry about the future or regret the past too much."
-- Mel Gibson

S

Q

I would not recommend contacting OM or making threats to reveal the A to his primary partner. This will not solve your problem which is your W's EMOTIONAL attachment to OM. In fact, you contacting ("messing with" in her view) OM, is likely to increase her feelings of loyalty to OM.

I know that the idea of physical contact between OM and W is painful for you... but try to remember this: Your W's EMOTIONAL connection with OM is the primary PROBLEM, not the physical side of the affair. She's a woman...once her emotions for OM resolve, there will BE no physical side to the affair! True, physical contact can indeed increase emotions and bonding, but so can the "missing" and frustration of staying away from physical contact and e-mailing eachother about the agony of it all, so I would try not to go crazy over what she does or doesn't do.

I think the whole "chapperone" idea was kind of bizarre anyway, not that you asked for an opinion on that ... but how can two people have a private conversation with a chapperone sitting there? Jeeze, there would be more privacy on e-mail!... OH, I forgot.. except with a snoopy H!

I would not take this "last meeting" biz so seriously! Often there are many "last meetings." I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but you will avoid a lot of stress if you don't get sucked into their drama.

I think you might sit down with W and GENTLY inform her that she does not need to SEE OM to "cut things off!" There is such a thing as a telephone. And e-mail. I would gently ask her why she feels she needs to "see" OM to break up. They want to see eachother because A.) they want to be able to have physical contact or B.) they plan to continue the relationship. If you could gently get her to fess up which one it is (or both) it may lead her to some self-insight about what she is really doing. Right now, she's kidding herself. People don't go to hotel rooms to break up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Next you are going to hear that they want to take a 2 week "break up vacation" to Aruba. Just for one last visit! I am ALL for you supporting your W about this and letting her do what she wants to do! But that doesn't mean you have to act like you "buy" all her transparent rationalizations. That's not going to help her "reality check." I think you can gently make known that you don't buy rationalizations, and then hopefully she will respect that she cannot pull the wool completely over your eyes, even if she can pull it over her own.

A.

"True, physical contact can indeed increase emotions and bonding, but so can the "missing" and frustration of staying away from physical contact and e-mailing eachother about the agony of it all, so I would try not to go crazy over what she does or doesn't do."

Maybe I am old fashioned but adultery in my book is not a behaviour that should be viewed with understanding and empathy. Acceptance will only convey the message that she has nothing to loose if she goes ahead with betraying you. My friend, if you hope to possibily save your marriage and stop this affair you need to bring things to a head. Right now you don't have a very high importance in her life compared to the OM. What you need to do is bring her back down to earth. To do this you need to bring the situation out in the open and make it clear that it is not fair to you and the the family for her to carry on a clandestine relationship with this OM. If she is unhappy with her marriage and wants to be with this man or any other man you are ready to release her from her marriage vows. You are ready to go with her to a lawyer and mutually file immediately for divorce. Remind her that you didn't force her to marry you and you are not going to force her to stay married if she is so unhapppy. If she chooses to commit to being married to you than she is expected to stop all contact with the OM and focus on rebuilding her relationship with you.

Davis, I have read some of your posts and I must admit your "hardline" approach to affairs is both logical and justified. I can see how your approach might even be quickly effective at stopping an A and possibly even at restoring the marriage... in CERTAIN situations.

I was not recommending that Q treat the "adultery" with empathy, just that he not get all worked up over this one "battle" while loosing sight of the "war."

You are absolutely right, he is NOT as "important" to his W RIGHT NOW, as OM is. But the key words in your sentence are "right now." Feelings/behavior CHANGE... research shows that while some A's bust up marriages, most do NOT... they just make them miserable to be in for awhile. Odds are that Q will once again be "first" with his W, and filing for a quick D would sabotage that very likely possibility...

My question for you is this... Why would Q want to forfeit his main objective (getting W back) by divorcing W, when there is no guarantee that threatening such a step will secure his objective? That strategy only makes sense if the M is completely expendable to a particular H, and it is clealy not expendable, to Q!

I can see that you think M should be treated like a business deal. I respect that view, but when negotiating deals, sometimes some pawns must be sacrificed in order to get to the queen. Whether or not OM and W just play kissy face, or really heat things up in a motel or not... those are just PAWNS in this deal, when all is said and done. The queen he needs to capture is W's emotions, and the king is SAVING THE M. I was only recommending that he not sweat over a few lost pawns... I am not saying that adultery is "okay."

A.

First for all I don't perceive the approach that I am recommending as "hardline". What it recognizes is that spouses have the right to make choices as how they want to live . In fact, I believe the hardline approach is the one which doesn't respect the right of married adults to make choices and forces the unhappy spouse to stay against her will. In Q's case his wife is in a turmoil about what to do (guilt vs.family obligations( and is debating whether to take her affair to the next level. Meanwhile, Q is viewed by his wife as a horrible person who is preventing her happiness with the OM.. That is why I feel It is important for Q to come across as a loving, thoughtful husband who will not stand in the way of her happiness rven if means filing for divorce. It is at this point, the fantasy begins to crack and reality begins to set in. She is going to have to think about what kind of life she is going to have as a single person with the OM ? Is the OM really interested in marrying her or is he only using her? What kind of stepfather will he be to the children??How will her parents and family view her? Will they accept this OM in their lives. Will he cheat on her in the future as he is doing with his live-in girlfriend?

Interesting...about pushing the envelope in order to get the fantasy to crack. That could work... assuming it IS a fantasy. Some affairs are hopeless fantasies, while some are, in reality, truly all-around "better deals" for a spouse than the M itself, and of course most A's fall somewhere in between those two extremes... they are just a flawed "alternative" to an equally flawed marriage. I feel that "pushing the envelope" in those situations, forcing the spouse to make a decision, may make them panic and choose the OP, out of TEMPORARY feelings of frustration with the OLD flaws of the M, as opposed to the NEW flaws of the affair, which feel more tolerable, simply because they are new.

IF Q believes that his wife's A is indeed a fantasy that will burst on close inspection, and IF IF IF he believes his wife will truly relinquish the fantasy once provided with enough "reality checks" then your method is sound!

But trust me, a lot of W's will still hold out hope for OM even when he proves to be an unsatisfactory alternative. Sometimes, an H could provide proof to their W's that OM is a 9/11 terrorist, and it would STILL not "burst the fantasy bubble," the W would find some way to justify or excuse that. It's not easy to burst a fantasy, and sometimes the harder you try, the more the person clings to it... it depends how EMOTIONALLY invested they are in it, which is why I recommend Q focus his main efforts on appealing to W's emotions...

Right now I am sure OM is telling her that she means the world to him. It will be hard for H to compete with that kind of romantic conviction about her (which is what women want), while threatening to file D. Talk about mixed messages. If I were Q, I would be sitting down trying to write the best and most heartfelt love letter of my life, instead of rattling OM's cage or hiring PI's. I would be offering W a fantasy to compete with OM's fantasy... showing her that her M can also incorporate her fantasies, that she does not truly need OM for that. That point must be made NOW, before it's too late.

I don't disagree with your approach, I think it's shrewd and manipulative and I have zero problem with that. Like I say, it might work in certain situations. But let's call a spade a spade... the pretty rationales you provide for taking this approach don't hold water. Why not just call it what it is... taking concrete actions to try to get the affair to self destruct. Nothing wrong with that! But don't pretend it's anything more noble than that, like "freeing the wife to be happy." Like you say, everyone is an adult who can make their own choices. She does not need him to "free" her from the marriage, she can free herself, if she wants. SHE can file for D. She knows that, and so she would not interpret H's steps toward D as "lovingly trying to free her" she will likely interpret it as him being fed up with her and truly wanting to end the M. Or, if she's really smart, she will interpret it as what it is... clever manipulation, a gambit, and (if he follows thru) a willingness to loose her just because she's not currently behaving herself.

A.

WOW. Thank you to everybody who replied to the last posting and I enjoyed the discussion. I have been out of town for many days and am back now to provide an update.

I did not send the aforementioned email to OM. I did send it to my W and she found it to be very powerful, and urged me not to send it. In trying not to be demanding and ultimatum-making, I agreed. While I was away my W met with OM for the "last time" so that she could have some closure to her affair. Interestingly enough, she bumped into OM a few days before in a crowded social situation with our kids and his partner, and she said that at that point the bubble burst and the "spell was broken" for her.

I have not questioned her about her final meeting, but I know that it took place in a place where they would not be physically intimate. And, as far as I can discern, she has been true to her word and has not had any contact with OM since that time.

We are getting along fine for the last couple of days since my return, but have been so busy that we have not really talked or had any time alone together. All I know is that I feel very loving toward her and optimistic. A drastic change from a few days ago. I think the thing that has made the most difference is that I'm not reading any emails between her and OM. I know that was a terrible thing to subject myself to, but I felt compelled to know at the same time. So, the advice not to spy is good advice, if objective is to feel better. However, by spying I know that my wife has had no contact with OM, and I feel good about that. I guess it's a double-edged sword.

I have read DB in the last few days as well, and plan to follow the principles outlined therein. I imagine that my W will also read it if she has not already.

Thank-you.
Q

I hoped not to be here again posting my on-going saga of a wife who has been having on emotional affair and the ordeal of trying to save a marriage in the face of that. When I last wrote my W had gone over a week with no contact with OM after a final meeting. However, I find yesterday that after I told her I'd be out of town late next month she has emailed OM asking him if he's going to be around!

I don't know the details of their last and maybe-not-so-final-meeting, but she says they did not kiss. So what does she want to see him again for? What does she want to do this time? I guess I'm just unsure what to do... again.

I thought that we had things straight. There would be one final meeting and that would be all. So if she contavenes this understanding, where does that leave me? I am at odds as to which strategy to follow and could use your inputs.

Should I
a) continue to live my life to the fullest in her presence and more or less ignore her in my life and in my house. Allowing her to see me as confident, fun, happy and a great father? Should I shun physical contact (of which she offers none anyways) and not pay attention to her?
or
b) try to figure out what OM is offering her and what needs he is meeting and try to meet those needs myself. Should I continue to be a bastion of support and understanding while letting her sneak around under my nose?

I have read DB and I'm just not entirely sure. I can try to work on myself, my own behaviours, and my reactions to her... but I'm running out of energy. As you know, this is all give, give, give and I'm getting nothing in return. At this point it is looking tempting to me to find a lover of my own because I'm becoming starved for some kind of attention, affection and love.

What to do?????????????/

Q

Hi,
Been reading your sitch, very similar to mine. I found out about the ow in Jan 2004, it was a EA and then became a Pa after I found out. I did the normal screaming, trying to convince H that he is living in a fantasy ETC nothing worked.

I told him to leave in May until he could give up Ow and go into counseling. After two weeks H said he ended it and went to couples couseling.

It was a nightmare all he did was mope around missing ow and told me that he was IL with her but wanted to see if he could get the spark back in our twenty year m. DUH how could I compete with a new fantasy. They were in the la la stage and he can not see straight.

After five weeks of this nightmare I pushed and pushed h because I couldn't live in limbo land anymore and I was really questioning if I still wanted this alien who was willing to walk away from his w and family ( two kids) because ow who is divorced said she wouldn't have a r with him if he stays married.

We went to a divorce mediator on June 28th and I freaked out. It was in that session that I decided I wanted to fight for my m and that H has lost his way. I also realized that both of us had contributed to the problems in our M- pushed things under the rug ( although I never thought we had a bad M just a 20 year one) and that h was 100% responsible for the A. (b by the way ow lives around the corner and her daughter and mine WERE friends.

Anyway coincidentally this was the same day I found out about db- got the book and started reading.

When you are dealing with an OP there are only two ways to do it -180 and LR, but I believed I could db better if h was living at home.

So the next morning I told H I had a idea.

Put the mediation on hold
I will not focus on the two of them anymore-don't have any energy
I will focus on taking care of myself and kids
Let h live in the house for financial reasons and child care Issues(we both work)
and see how it goes.

H asked if that means he could do what he wanted?
I responded I will not focus on you or ask you about what you are doing and I will not tell H anything I'm doing either.

Well if I could tell you H was like a kid in the candy shop- you can imagine he's thinking
I can remain home in my house (where I want to be)
see my kids every day
see the ow ( which my wife

knows about)
have my cake and eat it too

The only problem that he would have is that he already told ow he's moving out and getting a d

Too bad -now he has to lie to ow ( just what I want) now maybe ow will put pressure on H.b)

"try to figure out what OM is offering her and what needs he is meeting and try to meet those needs myself. Should I continue to be a bastion of support and understanding while letting her sneak around under my nose?

Answer to this YES- read the five love languages and figure out what the OM is doing

"but I'm running out of energy. As you know, this is all give, give, give and I'm getting nothing in return."

Answer to this you are right you will have to do 100% of the work now and it is extremely difficult.

But you must approach this intellectually not emotionally and look at this as you will do the dbing until you get past the crisis mode.

NO pressure on her patience patience

I know in my sitch I have seen a couple of baby steps
First it confuses the H--- out of h when I don't ask because this is a 180 for me and then I figured ou that the ow is using flattery, affiramtion, encoragement and gratefulness. I have now become very aware the small things H does and I make sure I comment on them and thank him. Also tell h when he looks good.

The other thing I'm doing and this might be hard is I'm initiating ML with H and have left sexy messages on his answering machine ( i know she has done this) boy what a reaction H just eats it up. Another one of his love languages. The ML part keeps the intimacy going and I know is confusing the h--- out of H because now H is cheating on ow, lying to ow ( can't imagine h is telling her he ml with wife, sleeping in same bed and has put d on hold.)

And I know from a mutual friend that ow has already asked H why are you still living there? HA HA
We are in the position of power, we must be strong to pull this off and as my therapist says only a small percentge of people could do this.

Look we are on this website and we are ntrying to save our m so if this works it will be worth it. Let the OP put the pressure on, we can't do it.

Be aware you will loose it somedays (I have ) then I start right back again the next day because I am trying to outlast this A which I know is only temporary and I know that one day my H will wake up and regret it>

After doing all new stuff for myself and detachong from H then I will know what I want to do. Which will take time, If we run away now we will never know and we couldn' say we tried everything.

Look if you asked me two months ago would I do this I would have told you you were nuts but here I am.

Hope this helps
keep posting and venting here especially when you feel like you going insane.

Willtry

Willtry,

Boy was your post what I wanted to hear this morning...I am in a very similar situation and I was wondering how much longer do I continue living in this 3person relationship since I feel like I have no dignity left...I have done many 180s but the OW is still there...your comments gave me some more insight on how to offer my husband some of what he is receiving from the OW...some more examples from you would even provide greater incentive so that I can stay focused...like how do you detach from husband to take care of yourself and your two children but still offer him the care and affection and self esteem that most MLC's are craving?

First let me tell you-none of this is easy. There are days I cry all the way to work, I have learned not to do it in front of h anymore.

I found that it's easier to detach if I treat my H like a roommate ( you can read my posts on this site).

I also have worked on me-taking spanish lessonand cooking classes. With the H home I have a built in babysitter- when I come home from the classes I'm upbeat and tell H what Iv'e learned. Also say I always wanted to do this.

On the weekends I take the kids to the beach with or with out H. We have worked out a schedule that we alternate SAT nights, one week I go out(don't tell where) the other week H goes out(i know with who)beleieve me this is hard but I have friends I call on these nights.

The only thing I ask is that we give each other notice if we are going out during the week after work or whatever, so someone is home with kids.

As for the ow I know from snooping( which i am working on stopping ) that they talk on the cell sometimes 15 times in a day. Sooo high school I started to think what could they possibly talk about- and then I read the Five Love Languages by Dobson-get it. If you konw your H you will be able to figure out which language he needs and believe me the ow is speaking it. Anyway thats what I learned to do and I really have to make a conscious effort because somedays I want to say Get the F--- out you a--hole.

I also ask his opinion on things and tell him that it's a good idea ( even if I don't think so) because he real;ly likes this.

Low self esteem. Someone once told me the Oscars are wasted on Hollywood and I think that during this crisis it's true..

We will still have alot of work to do when this ow blows over but then it will be two people working on a m. Right now it's onesided. But the goal is to out last this A which they say can take 6 months or more UG. and hopefully get our H's back from their journey. Right now I want h back and believe that he is really lost but I want a new H back.

The ml part is definately a strong tactic, we have never had probl;ems in this area and obviously if he's willing to do it. It can't be that great with the ow so I'm using that. I have to be honest sometimes I want to cry when we do it and others I really don't want to be intimate but I convince myself that it's a strong connection and in the begining there was no eye contact and no kissing-now I can get him to kiss me and he has even stroked my arm afterwards.

Its strange because now h even flirts with me. But I tell you those messages I leave or even if I just say something like " that was really hot last night" in a sexy voice he loves it and I always get a call back with more word play.

We have to kill this a with any weapon we can

hope that helps
gotta run

Willtry

Thank you, willtry. Your two posts were the best part of my day today. You gave some great strategies and provided ample inspiration. I realize that I do need to work on affirming my W and trying to offer her more than I currently am doing. The notion of looking for those tiny little things was very useful.

I admire you for being able to ML with your H. If only my W were willing to do the same. It has been a long time now and she says, flat out, that she feels absolutely no affection towards me and zero desire to touch, hug, kiss and especially ML. As you can guess, that is a real slap in the face and living without any intimacy is almost becoming unbearable.

Again, thanks. You have definitely boosted my spirits and provided some good suggestions. I'll look into the book you mentioned.

As for things with us right now, they are about the same. In discussions today my W says that she has maintained zero contact with OM. This could be the truth. I know that she typed an email to him about my trip out of town, but I don't know that she sent it since he hasn't replied. I hope that she didn't. She says though, that even without him in the picture, she doesn't feel any better towards me and she is still unhappy with our M, as she was before she met OM.

I guess DB is the only answer and I'll have to be prepared to work my a** off for the next several months to make some significant changes.

Thanks again,
Q

Hey Q -

I agree, those posts from Willtry are awesome, but I noticed something in your reply:

In discussions today my W says that she has maintained zero contact with OM. This could be the truth. I know that she typed an email to him about my trip out of town, but I don't know that she sent it since he hasn't replied.

From this, I am assuming that you are still having talks about your R. Ya gotta stop this man, otherwise the only results you will get are this:

She says though, that even without him in the picture, she doesn't feel any better towards me and she is still unhappy with our M, as she was before she met OM.

Look familiar? Your DBing starts with no longer reading her email, and no longer talking to her about R, even if she wants to, you just listen and get out of that conversation as quickly and gracefully as you can.

S

Hi,
glad I can help and I do agree with Sinjin you need to stop the R talk.
Having said that I lost it last night, you can read about it on my post.

The strange thing is that I really do understand what I have to do and I can give advice about it. But when it's happening to you it is the worst thing you could imagine and all you want ot do is have a crystal ball to see if this suffering will be worth it. Because make no bones about it this suffering, and when you feel like your dying inside these tactics are really hard to do. I think thats why my therapist said that she didn't think that most people could accomplish this but that I seem like a very strong person.

You know when she said that I got pissed because I certainly don't feel strong and sometimes I think it's just an act on my part.

Today is a bad one and I'm really questioning my decision to do this, I'm also questioning if my H is really a person I want or am I just afraid of the consequences of being a single parent. I hate him today but tomorrow another story?
I wish there was a pill to mend my broken heart.

Could a person who you have spent more than half you life with be so cruel or have they become a different person?

Bad night-bad day
going out with friends tonight-hopefully will be in a better mood tomorrow.
Need to be for the kids

WILLTRY

Both Sinjin and Willtry are right, the R talk has to stop. This is my objective for the week. No more of it. And this week is our eight-year anniversary too.

I am trying to think in terms of doing a 180, but what I'm struggling with is identifying what it is I'm doing that doesn't work. It is so easy for me to see it in others, but hard for me to see my own behaviours objectively.

Thanks for the support and very sound advice. Good luck to you, Willtry, I hope your next few days are better.
Q

For those who have been following the saga, and offering valuable advice, this is where we are now.

I has been more than two weeks and W has had zero contact with OM. I am certain of this since I was able to monitor their contact before, and she also has no unexplained behaviour. From my point of view, this is very good and I consider myself extremely fortunate given that the whole ordeal lasted only three months and nothing physical ever happened between them. Given the other stories I have read on this site, I count myself lucky.

Now comes the hard work, rebuilding our marriage. So, I'll likely start a thread in another forum that is more suited to that topic.

Thanks All,
Questioning

I had hoped that my last post would be just that, the last post in this story. However, I just learned that my wife has initiated contact with OM again after over one month. In this email to him she goes on to say that time has not helped her, and she still feels no more love for her husband (me) and she still thinks of him often. She tells him that we have not kissed in months and that she is "going without." Then she proposes that the two of them have a quick get-away vacation together before he leaves the country forever, and asks him to imagine the state of readiness she'll be in if they are alone together after having had no intimacy for months.

Over the last month I have been trying to practice DB principles, but don't know that I've been doing that well. Obviously my W doesn't feel any differently towards me, though she tells all her friends how kind and patient I have been and that she still wants me in her life, but as a brother-type person.

I guess the thing to do is to get back to basics with DBing. I realize that I do need to spend more time working on my own development. I have spent too much time catering to her needs and pussyfooting around her hoping to make her happy. Obviously it's not working, so a change of strategy is in order.

Of course, any more advice or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

Questioning

Hey ???,

Sorry to hear of the negative developments. If you've been being really nice to your W now might be the time to do a 180 and go dark. She's doing all this for soemone who's leaving the country? I think she needs to see what it will be like to be w/out you once he's gone so she can figure out if she really wants to be without you.

Just MHO.

Good luck, peace, love and happiness to you,

Jose

I had really hoped that this "affair" would be a very short-lived regrettable event in my wife's life. Since OM is leaving the country it is not likely to continue, unless they keep emailing and it maintains intensity.

Unfortunately, this escapist behaviour of my wife's is continuing. She has emailed him suggesting that they try and get together alone on a vacation, teasing him with the fact that we haven't had sex in months and she'd be more than ready. Up to this point they have still only kissed.

I am still trying my hardest to be supportive, loving, and a great person. My wife tells people that I am being all these things, but she still feels no passion for me. So, I am left wondering what to do. I have the feeling that attempting a 180 would only make it easier for her to feel nothing for me. Yes, I know that what I've been doing isn't working, but I haven't been at it for that long either.

Of course I'm also toying with other ideas to try to prevent them from seeing or communicating. Should I attempt these things? I could tell his partner who is still in the dark, I could manipulate communications to appear as they are both ending it, etc. Or, should I just continue to give her enough rope to hang herself.

I keep asking myself if I could be with her if they sleep together. I still don't have an answer for this, but knowing that she is aware of how I feel, that she's had ample time to end things, that she only can see him through extreme effort and deception, I can't see that I'd even want to be with somebody who is like this.

What advice to people have about doing a 180? How would that look in the case of a father of two who does most of the parenting, the housework, and just about everything? All my W likes to do recently is go on short holidays and sleep. Would she even notice?

Any suggestions would be great.

Questioning.