Ok, I don't even know how to begin. Over the past few months I have dated a little but I wasn't interested in anyone really.
My H and I are legally separated but it was left at that. He would stay the night here (on the couch) most Saturday nights so I could sleep in Sunday mornings and a few random nights during the week when I would be working late. Well it morphed into every night and some nights in bed with me...... before I even realized what was happening he was in my bed every night and kissing my forehead goodbye every morning.
This holiday season hit me hard emotionally and I started having second thoughts of trying to salvage my marriage (the shreds that might be left)
Now here is the problem.... H never hit rock bottom, he has never said the "I will do ANYTHING to make this work, what do I need to do?" He is what you might call "half baked" in that he admits everything was a mistake and he regrets his actions but in his words "I am so scared of the work it would take to fix things with you" "I am too far in a hole to ever dig myself out" and "I love you but I just don't have those in love feelings for you"
Sooooooooooooooo...... I have two questions.
#1 am I crazy to even have these thoughts???????????
#2 what would your course of action be?
Girlfriend, I can only speak for myself. But you're gonna have to give me *a lot* more details for me to be able to tell you what my particular course of action would be if I were in your shoes.
Here's why, in a nutshell (and in your own words):
in his words "I am so scared of the work it would take to fix things with you" "I am too far in a hole to ever dig myself out" and "I love you but I just don't have those in love feelings for you"
before I even realized what was happening he was in my bed every night and kissing my forehead goodbye every morning.
Those two things simply don't jive when I envision a long-term, happy, *healthy* M. Or even the *possibility* of a truly successful reconciliation attempt.
So let me ask you this: What are YOU getting from this relationship, as it stands right now? Are you thinking of the future? Or just the "here-and-now"?
I'm asking this with NO judgment. Truth be told: I think many people - mostly women - base decisions to stay in a M on more than just whether love is there. Some base their decision on finances. Others base it on the children. (If I'm being brutally honest, I just named the two biggest motivating factors in me deciding to try to save my M; I made that decision based on my children and their future ... and I knew my heart could love my H ... yes, with hesitations ... again.) I'm not saying that's GREAT. I'm just saying it IS. (And before anyone wastes their time criticizing me for that, seriously save your breath for the next person who believes in unicorns farting rainbows.)
The thing is, twin, I've kinda gathered from your posts since forever ago that you still really love your H. And that's my concern. Because he's already making excuses for why he's not ready to do the hard, uncomfortable work to really - if I'm being honest - fall in love with you again. (And, yes, that CAN be done ... but I'm not sure I've read even one post that makes me think your H wants - or is ready - to.) So if you're thinking of pursuing this because you genuinely love him, my fear is that you're going to end up hurt. Again.
But, sweetie, it's YOUR life. Not ours.
Be real with us. Not "tough twin." REAL twin. And tell us what it is you're hoping for here.
Big hugs to you, honey. (And, no, you're not crazy.) xoxo
Train, you are on FIRE tonight.
Train you're right when you say I still love him in some way. And yes my decision (or thoughts on the subject) have a lot to do with the kids. I did NOT like spending Christmas day alone (all afternoon) and even though the twins are not even 3 yet they kept asking for mommy while at BIL's house.
I may go crazy some days but I like being home with them 95% of the time. And if I am being REALLY honest, I like not being alone in the evenings.
It's easier financially and physically as H almost always puts the kids to bed.
Train, PLEASE help me. I too am very scared. I don't want to be hurt again. Do I tell him no more staying the night, in less words "go dark"?? See if he hits rock bottom while I try and detach again?
Just read back through the couple of posts I made today - and your comment, Maybell - and lol'd. It probably seems like I'm on fire, indeed. I think I've just read so much here lately (and not responded), and I have SO much empathy that some posts really do catapult me, emotionally, back to the six months (combined, in 2005/06 and last year) that I was alone and trying to navigate my way through DBing. (I know, I know, y'all are like: 6 MONTHS?!? PUHLEEZE!!! But it's all relative, ya know?!?) And I felt that every.move.I.made was the "wrong" thing to do. I felt like I had to report back here with everything - and was ashamed to admit some things - because I wasn't doing every.little.thing. "by the book."
And then I realized that it's sorta - please don't accuse me of being sacrilegious - like the Bible: there are those who read it *literally* and get it (at best) half wrong. But there are those who are so desperate for salvation that they lap up every morsel of what people tell them It says. Even if the "reporting" people read part of It the wrong way. Or only took from It what they "needed" to read ... and left the rest behind.
The first time I was here, I felt CONSTANTLY like a doormat. But I read MWD's book, 8 years later, with a different set of eyes. Two eyes with a lot of experience. And one A already under my belt. With the help of my own experiences, and the combined experiences of a few posters here that have made things WORK - one way or another - I see things quite differently. And I even read things in DR quite differently this time. It's a matter of perspective, perhaps. Our perspective - even when we READ something - is colored by our experiences.
That being said, I don't know what to tell you, twin. You love your H, and it shows. You don't want to be alone. And I get that.
For me personally? If my H had come back "half-cocked" - even though I'm a stay-at-home-mom with no current income - I would have told him to take a hike. I was scared out of my mind. My S8, who has been home since he was born and has even homeschooled since he was in Kindergarten, cried DAILY after I told him I had to go back to work which meant he had to go to public school. It was the most gut-wrenching thing I've ever gone through (my M be damned at that point). But once I flipped that switch, NO WAY would I have taken my H - and my old M - back. Half-cocked wasn't going to cut it for me anymore. I recognized - and KNEW - I was better than that. My H came back this time fully prepared to fix what has happened ... even more so than I was. He was remorseful. He was different than he was the first time. And he's STILL carrying the brunt of that load, even though I'm continuing to take care of my side of the street. (I don't know if it will last; anything can happen. But if I'm doing my best and he cheats AGAIN, he can go on ...)
I might get kicked off this site for saying so - and that's ok because my M is in recovery and I'm only here to try to help others - but I think there's a HUGE difference between a M being in trouble because of boredom and two people not meeting each other's needs and then a M being in trouble because of an A ... or the aftermath of one. That's maybe why there's only one chapter in DR devoted to extramarital affairs. And even MWD advocates a much firmer stance in that chapter. But we all look for the magic bullet and think that the whole book applies to our sitch, even if there's been an A. And we believe the book tells us to "placate" our spouses. I did that once. And ended up back here 8 years later. I don't think the same rules apply in the event of an A. My H said this time it was my self-assurance - my "confidence," he called it - that re-attracted him. Not my validating and kissing his a$s even though he was the one getting that very thing on the side.
I firmly believe that we can ACT confident and self-assured and happy and content ... and that might re-attract our spouses. But until we reach the place where we actually KNOW that we - and our children - will be okay on our own, we are just setting ourselves up to be doormats. A M is a privilege. Not a right. And it should be treated as such. By BOTH sides.
We don't deserve our spouses. We EARN them. And if we earn them and they don't reciprocate, then we've earned something better. There IS an end-point to the supplication. But I can't tell you where that end-point is for your own M. I only know where it is for mine.
Heart you girls.
I can't even come close to hitting the nail on the head as Train has and I'm a guy, but here's my 2 cents.
I'm separated too, and WAW and I haven't crossed that field you and husband are in that you mentioned. However, WAW still comes over and acts as if this is still home and lets me come over to hers (I choose) to visit with the kids and help out.
I'm replying only because today I was talking with a female coworker who I've been talking with about my sitch. So in essence this is coming from another female, but she primarily said, "She wants something."
So, your husband wants something and in my opinion he doesn't FULLY want the marriage just yet. My WAW too, has mentioned she is sorry a couple of times before we separated, but here we are 4 weeks separated (she wanted to separate) and I've since put myself out there at least 3 times expressing/acting on my feelings only for her not to reciprocate those same feelings.
Twinmom, I'm The Queen Rug Sweeper. One Christmas just a few years into the M, I found receipts for lingerie and jewelry that I didn't get for Christmas. H gave me a story and I believed him. After a couple of kids, H had an email EA with my best friend. The he started looking at porn. All swept under the rug, because I thoughts that's what a good W was supposed to do, swallow hard and get over it and believe that her H actually did love her, and it's what's best for the kids anyway. It didn't work. Now he's having a full-blown A and has left me.
If my H walked in the door, begged forgiveness and said he wanted to work on the M, I'd be skeptical. I'd be even more wary of him if he admits he's afraid of the work. It would be really easy to take him back, but.......I personally wouldn't without some show of effort on his behalf. Because I think he'd just leave again when things got hard.
That's my $.02. Everbody has an opinion.
You have to do what's right for you. Good luck.
Train, thank you. I fully get what you are saying. I agree 110%. I don't want to be a doormat, I agree he doesn't deserve me. And on some level I know he doesn't want me.
I think I allowed us to get into this situation because it was easy. It was easy to have some help with the kids, it was easy to have someone to talk to at night, it was easy sex......
I don't like where we are right now because it leaves me kind of wanting more. H isn't willing to give more now.
I asked him last night what his faults were and what he was working on, he was seeing a therapist on his own for a while... He said he didn't want to share that with me because it wouldn't change my mind about wanting a divorce so why bother. (He doesn't know I am thinking about not divorcing. He thinks the sex is just sex for me.)
Today I woke up with a migraine, full blown vomiting/eyes couldn't focus/sensitive to any sound & light. H called off work, took the older boys to school and then took care of the kids all day. I was thankful for him today.
Sweetie, I get it. It's easy and convenient.
If a glorified nanny is all you need, then carry on. But if your heart is involved - and if you're trying to save your M - you're eventually going to be hurt again if you continue on this course.
Pay the piper today. Or pay him tomorrow. Either way, he's coming with his hand out.
I think that you ought to tell him that you were thinking about reconsidering the D and see where he is at. I think it's time for some authentic communication, if he is capable of that. Your answer may be revealed in those exchanges. He may be feeling or thinking differently than you imagine and, IMO, this is not the time to guess. He has put you through a lot, no question, and nobody blames you for pursuing a D, but there doesn't seem to be a pressing need to decide today so I would start talking about things more and see where that gets you. What about joint MC?
Wow that's awesome and not so awesome.
I kept tabs on you, mainly as we came here almost at the same time. Turns out my h may be a serial cheater too. There's a lot riding on this whole thing.
Perhaps mc would be wise, if h chooses the easy road next time h cheats it may just be the ow who us the easy road.
Ok,I have a free "moment". I swear I have kept myself so busy I don't know if I am coming or going. I am earning a decent amount of money and it *mostly* keeps my mind from going into dark places.
So H and I have had a few talks, you know those late night so tired really emotional talks..... Not good for anyone. BUT here is where we are at. He doesn't want a divorce, he loves me but he isn't "in love" with me. He doesn't know if he wants to spend the rest of his life with me. He made such a huge mess of this situation he doesn't even know where to begin to clean it up. The relationship between me and his family is so negative he doesn't know if it CAN be repaired.
He was seeing a therapist (who turned out to be horrible and now H refuses to do the therapy thing) I don't know if Retrovile (spelling is wrong I know) would be a good idea for us or not.
He admits that he did very horrible things and wishes it never would have happened. Just a few months ago he said he didn't regret the affair and now he says that he sees how much damage and pain he has caused and regrets what he did.
I have a lot of anger, which H doesn't deal well with. He doesn't meet my needs even when I tell him exactly what those needs are.
I have tried backing off, doing the whole GAL thing and then my sex drive kicks in...... FU*#!!! So I initiate and we have sex and I am back to square one......
I don't know how to deal with my anger towards him. I have triggers and he says "I can't take back what I did, I wish I could" but that doesn't help me in the moment.
Train, you're right. I do want more than a nanny but it is so hard to make him leave and do this parenting thing alone. So basically it's like an in house separation but he doesn't miss me because I am here every day!
Do I need to start at square one of divorce busting? I feel like he is "cake eating" in that he isn't meeting my needs but he is playing the part of happy family.
Oh and he isn't willing to give up the phone code yet. BUT he does check in with me when he is going to be even 10 minutes late and goes out of his way to come home early from work and I didn't ask for these things.
2x4's welcome!
Well, I'm not an expert by any means and I'm sitting in my own mess right now, but PLEASE stop sleeping with him. I think everyone would agree. You found yourself in a vicious cycle.
If you can afford it, get some phone coaching and then follow strictly what they are saying. You need guidance.
That he is saying he doesn't want divorce but he doesn't know if he can be with you forever is bs, sorry. He probably has self esteem issues and too bad his therapist was horrible.
You need to DB PROPERLY, warm him up enough so you get him to find another therapist.
Re read the section in DR where Michelle explains how to find a good therapist or even the whole book again. Refresh your mind. Stay active as much as you can here. I know how foggy everything can be especially when you spend so much time with your spouse in separation mode.
Talk less too. Talking was my biggest enemy DBing. I don't know what else to tell you, not experienced with your situation but stay strong, be in charge of the moment and yourself!!!
Complex, thank you for your insight. I did phone coaching almost a year ago when the bd and he left....
Not to make light of my life but if you want to read some soap opra search my old threads.
Twin, my heart aches for you, but understand I would give anything to be where you're at right now.
I know I can positively, undoubtedly, identify with your anger feelings and not knowing what to do with them. I can say this much, I heard you say about 2-3 weeks ago you were not really wanting a divorce and sounds like he doesn't either. That's a fantastic place to start.
ILYBINILWY? This is such pop-psych garbage. No one is asking either of you to have particular feelings, you're just asking him to work on the marriage.
I have no idea if I have anything to offer you, Twin, but I see a ton of hope in that paragraph above.
I agree. I should've said that too.
Lot of people would love to be in your situation. So am I.
You have to look forward, not backwards. There are no old threads of yours. They don't exist, you came a long way to where you are right now!
The only way is going forward. I'd get some expert advice.
And I'd get it soon because I'm sure the situation isn't doing any good for your kids.
Love, complex
Thanks. Darn those threads were filled with stories that would make me a fortune in the soap opera writing business.
My hesitation lies in the fact that my H is a serial cheater, a LIAR and an addict(the new relationship "in love" feeling is his addiction)
I have been through sooooooooooo much, honestly right now this is great for the kids. What they have been through is horrible.
I have gotten much better advice from 25yrs, train, starsky, and a few others than I did my db coach. That is why I am posting here. My H isn't currently in an affair (although I am sure it could happen at any time but is it really an affair at this point??)
Maybe I do need more "mystery" more "GAL" and take care of me time.
I guess I should update my signature...... I'm not 32 anymore :-( and well Lilly isn't 3 months, lol! Time it's flying by.
Twinmom
I am not sure that I have commented on your thread before but I do read it from time to time. I think it is great that both of you don't want a D. That is a great start. But like my situation, this seems half baked. I would refocus on you and get to place where you don't act confident but are confident. You need to let him go. Does this mean he can be around to help with the kids? yes. Does this mean no more sex? Yes. But your husband has not it rock bottom and maybe never will. Do you want to live the rest of your life in a M where you always fears that he will have another A? I know I don't.
Lately I have been flipping out over little lies. It throws me into a tizzy when he lies. I would welcome some 2x4's on this subject.
His lies are to be nice to me but I just see it as a black/white lie and freak.
example, he gets DD iced coffee EVERY single morning. I make my coffee at home and get a DD coffee only if I am in a rush to be somewhere in the morning or if H has a free one due to reward points. Well Sunday he was going to get his coffee and he always asks if I want one, I almost always say no. I told him if he had enough points to get me one. Well he comes back with one........ and today I see the receipt from yesterday showing the points balance... he didn't have enough points, he just paid for it.
another example.... last night he was going to DD at 10:30pm because I decided to make plans for early this morning and he wouldn't have coffee til almost noon so he went last night and put it in the fridge. He decided to take my car and I warned him I needed gas and gave him my debit card. I look at my checking account this morning and no charge for gas.....
it's things like this he is lying about and it is driving me INSAINE. I think it's because I fear he doesn't see a problem with lying and I fear the tumble downwards to lying about where he is and who he is with and another affair.
I'm not exactly sure what the concern is. These seem like pretty minor issues and I understand that for you it probably stems from the bigger issue of you having been cheated on by him. Maybe he forgot to fill in gas. If it bothers you, then talk to him about it. If he doesn't listen, then don't give him your car.
He did put gas in the car he just used his money to pay not mine. (We don't have any joint accounts now)
They are all very small things but I guess I am so scared the small lies will turn into big ones. How do I keep my mind from going in that direction?
"They are all very small things but I guess I am so scared the small lies will turn into big ones."
This is why working on yourself while you were going through the process is important. Have you gone to IC for yourself?
Lately I have been flipping out over little lies. It throws me into a tizzy when he lies. I would welcome some 2x4's on this subject.
His lies are to be nice to me but I just see it as a black/white lie and freak.
example, he gets DD iced coffee EVERY single morning. I make my coffee at home and get a DD coffee only if I am in a rush to be somewhere in the morning or if H has a free one due to reward points. Well Sunday he was going to get his coffee and he always asks if I want one, I almost always say no. I told him if he had enough points to get me one. Well he comes back with one........ and today I see the receipt from yesterday showing the points balance... he didn't have enough points, he just paid for it.
^^^ Be careful how you categorize things. This was not lying, this was a kind gesture, an act of service. I fail to see how this is a lie.
another example.... last night he was going to DD at 10:30pm because I decided to make plans for early this morning and he wouldn't have coffee til almost noon so he went last night and put it in the fridge. He decided to take my car and I warned him I needed gas and gave him my debit card. I look at my checking account this morning and no charge for gas.....
If he told you he was going to use his own debit card and and used yours instead, that's lying. If he simply ignored your request to use your money and kindly used his own.... Come on, Twin. You're above this.
You are clearly looking, hunting, searching for a shred of deceit from him. Why? So you can say: "Ahh Haa!" Help me understand.
The more I ruminate on this the more something jumps out at me. You gave me a lot of grief about your perceived attitude of me. (right or wrong). The thing with the coffee. He bought you a coffee because you wanted one. You requested that he get it if he had enough points. He wanted to do it for you anyway. You found the receipt clearly showing he did it out of kindness. I wonder, did you approach him with gratitude about it or have you been acting stand-offish because you perceive that he lied?
Just a thought.
Oh, yeah, twinmom. Let's not be out looking for things to be upset about. You have plenty of real things to be upset about. But H buying you coffee and paying for your gas? Um, hellerrr? Acts of service. Take it with a smile. (As long as he isn't neglecting his share of the household bills to spend frivolously. And he IS paying household bills, right?)
You asked some questions about what you should do now that H says he doesn't want a D but admits he isn't "in love" with you. twin, you're a smart cookie. How does what H said make YOU feel? What do YOU think you should do? What are your goals? What do you want, sweetie? Spell that out for us.
And tell me: Are you comfortable being alone? Do you feel confident when you picture yourself being a single mom with limited help, and limited financial support, from your H?
Also, have you read 5LL? Have you and H ever taken the quiz to find out what your LL is?
Twin,
I gotta go with Train and Jef on this one sweetie. I know the other posts had some darn upsetting things in them, but this?? This "coffee with his own money" does not rise to any level of anything.
Just giving it to you straight.
Oh, yeah, twinmom. Let's not be out looking for things to be upset about. You have plenty of real things to be upset about.
exactly. This sort of trivializes the other issues.
Make sense?
But H buying you coffee and paying for your gas? Um, hellerrr? Acts of service.
Y---What are your goals? What do you want, sweetie? Spell that out for us.
--
Also, have you read 5LL? Have you and H ever taken the quiz to find out what your LL is?
Everyone ought to read this ^^ book a few times. It's not earth shattering but a great reminder NOT to turn away from love, b/c it's not wrapped how we want it wrapped. It's still love.
Ok, will respond as I have free hands to type :-)
First, everyone is right. But I have thought about it a lot lately and realized I am not really mad about him paying for things. I find that when I have flashbacks and those days that feel like BD was yesterday I tend to look for something to be mad about. I guess I feel like being mad about what occurred almost a year ago (and ongoing til summer) is not gong to get me anywhere. Kind of like "aren't you over that already" so I look for new things he does wrong.
The money issue has always been hard for us. We are both very independent and it's SUPER hard for me to not contribute equally. Yes, he pays bills except for my car insurance that he was paying and I had it changed to my bank account for the withdraw. I also pay the direct tv and internet bills because they are in my name and I changed them to come out of my account. I pay my cell phone bill by calling into Sprint and make a payment for my half (his mom is on the account too but H is still on OW family plan with AT&T). I pay for all groceries/household supplies, all entertainment, my two older boys school tuition and the extras like sports and Christmas/birthday presents.
It's easier for me to get angry about something like this than to tell him "I'm angry AGAIN that you did those horrible things to me"
Jefe, I am totally stand offish to him about it. I will snap that I don't know why he has to be a LIAR and I always find out so why lie?
I guess (right or wrong) I felt like I was at a place where I was no longer in full DB'ing mode where I needed to STFU and not let my emotions show. For me that can't be maintained this long. I give credit to those that can do it.
25, yes I have read that book. H has not read any marriage books. He took the quiz but it was when he was head over heels in love with OW, does that make a difference?
He is so different with me than he was with her.
My primary LL is physical touch. Nothing else even comes close. I have told him I need to be held/hugged/kissed more than once per day and he doesn't do it. He just kisses me goodbye in the morning. If I hug/kiss/hold him he will reciprocate but he doesn't initiate except for the goodbye one.
His LL is words with time together as a close second.
"The money issue has always been hard for us. We are both very independent and it's SUPER hard for me to not contribute equally."
^^^And? Let it go. Is this kind of pettiness worth damaging your marriage over, or any other relationship in your life for that matter? Whether you want to save your marriage or not is not the issue here. It was a cup of coffee and a tank of gas. Let people do things for you, even if your angry at them. It may not even begin to come close to repairing the damage he caused but it certainly isn't causing more.
"It's easier for me to get angry about something like this than to tell him "I'm angry AGAIN that you did those horrible things to me"" But thats the truth, and your complaing about his lack of honesty down to how a cup of coffee meant for you was purchased yet you refuse to be completely honest about your feelings. You're not playing fair. He deserves as mush honesty from you as you expect from him.
"Jefe, I am totally stand offish to him about it. I will snap that I don't know why he has to be a LIAR and I always find out so why lie?" But you're angry about PAST lies. We've already established that the 2 incidences you brought up were not in fact LIES. Acting gracious towards him is just as much about healing you as anything else. If you WANT to start moving forward with your anger I would apologize for the coldness about this issue, and this issue only, and thank him for the gas and coffee. YOU will feel better, I promise.
"I guess (right or wrong) I felt like I was at a place where I was no longer in full DB'ing mode where I needed to STFU and not let my emotions show. For me that can't be maintained this long. I give credit to those that can do it. " Here's the thing that drives me crazy about this place sometimes. DBing this, DBing that... If you want to REALLY lose weight or become healthier you make lifestyle changes, permanent ones. If you just go "on a diet" as soon as you stop, your life and body will go right back to where it was. "DBing" (ugh I can't believe I even typed that) is no different. We can't do it for just a season, we have to make lifestyle changes, permanent ones. Sure there are some specific techniques we use in the early stages to rapidly loose some weight or get a spouses attention that we wont continue, but as a whole we don't have the luxury of going back to our "old" selves.
I am by no means telling you that you shouldn't hurt or don't have a right to be angry, you do and you should be. Twin, you helped me through a really dark period not but a few weeks ago. Mirror some of that same advice you gave me back into your own situation.
Take a look at the advice that Hope414 gave me a few days ago on this very subject. It's very wise. The "Vision Chart" she recommended has been helpful for me.
Oh, yeah, twinmom. Let's not be out looking for things to be upset about. You have plenty of real things to be upset about. But H buying you coffee and paying for your gas? Um, hellerrr? Acts of service. Take it with a smile. (As long as he isn't neglecting his share of the household bills to spend frivolously. And he IS paying household bills, right?)
You asked some questions about what you should do now that H says he doesn't want a D but admits he isn't "in love" with you. twin, you're a smart cookie. How does what H said make YOU feel? What do YOU think you should do? What are your goals? What do you want, sweetie? Spell that out for us.
And tell me: Are you comfortable being alone? Do you feel confident when you picture yourself being a single mom with limited help, and limited financial support, from your H?
Also, have you read 5LL? Have you and H ever taken the quiz to find out what your LL is?
Ok I have thought about this a lot. Could I be alone? Yes, if I had to I could make it work. Do I enjoy being alone? Nope, not at all. I have thought about this a lot. It's not the "in a relationship" or "not in a relationship" alone I don't like it's the companionship. I think I would be happy if I had a roommate (could be female or male) as I truly just enjoy having someone other than the kids to talk to/chill with.
What do I want from H??? This is going to sound HORRIBLE but I want him to hit rock bottom. I want him to own his mistakes and I want him to admit he has an addiction. I want him to think fu#!I really messed that sh!# up and be absolutely disgusted with his own actions. So yea forgiveness is something I haven't quite mastered yet........ (or even come close to)
I admit one of my faults is not being able to let go of past wrongs especially if a sincere apology/making amends hadn't occurred.
I should probably put a LOT of effort into that.
Jefe, I get what you are saying about the lies but honesty isn't something my H is proficient at. As 25years once told me "I'd you had endless energy search for the one or two women on earth your H hasn't lied to"
I do owe him honesty for the simple fact that I believe being honest is the right thing to do. BUT with that said when I am honest and have told him something sparked a memory and I am having a bad day he just pulls away from me and it's so cold it's like he is angry with me. I have told him I need comfort in the form of physical touch when I am upset but anything other than a smile = cold/distant H
"Jefe, I get what you are saying about the lies but honesty isn't something my H is proficient at. As 25years once told me "I'd you had endless energy search for the one or two women on earth your H hasn't lied to""
I'm going to keep circling back to you on this. Whether or not your husband is proficient in honesty has ZERO bearing on this discussion. He bought you a cup of coffee.
You, and rightfully so, jumped on my butt about wanting to "punish" my wife. Isn't this kinda the same thing?
Sweetheart, fight the battles that need fighting, don't create new ones.
Oh I agree Jefe, I do feel a sense of wanting to punish.
I don't know how to move past that feeling. It feels as though he has had no consequences for his actions and I am the one who gets screwed for his actions. I guess (and maybe this makes me a bad person and I need to change this about myself) but I want him to have consequences for his choices.
"Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself" by MWD.
I found this article to be incredibly helpful with the kind of feelings you've been expressing --
By Michele Weiner-Davis
Are you someone who walks around feeling angry with your spouse or loved one much of the time? Do you have a little inner voice that constantly reminds you of all of his or her wrongdoings? Have you become expert at remembering all the minute details of past injustices just so that you can keep score? If this describes you at all, you better read what I'm about to say and take it to heart.
Lack of forgiveness imprisons you. It takes its toll on your physical and emotional health. It keeps you stuck in the deepest of relationship ruts. No matter how justified you feel about your point of view regarding your partner's insensitive behavior, you still are miserable. When you wake up each morning, a gray tint shadows your life. You walk around with a low-grade depression. You can't feel joy because you're too busy being angry or feeling disappointed.
In the face of these fairly obvious disadvantages, you hang on to your belief that, since you feel let down, you must not "give in." To you, giving in means forgiving, letting go, making peace. To do so, would be tantamount to giving up your soul. So, you keep your distance. You interact in perfunctory ways, never allowing your partner to step over the emotional line you've drawn. And though the distance often feels intolerable, forgiveness is not on your short list of solutions to your dilemma.
I have worked with so many couples who say they want to heal their relationships. And yet, when they're offered the tools, they can't seem to move forward. These are the couples who, instead of finding effective ways to get beyond blame, continue to repeat their mantra, "Our problems are your fault and you must pay." As long as they maintain this mindset, they are doomed to failure. How very sad. Even sadder are their children who, on a day-by-day basis observe their parents being "right" but "miserable." What lessons are they learning about love?
If any of this strikes a chord with you (and you wouldn't be reading this if it didn't), you need to internalize that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Letting go of resentment can set you free. It can bring more love and happiness into your life. It opens the door to intimacy and connection. It makes you feel whole. Forgiving others takes strength, particularly when you feel wronged, but the fortitude required to forgive pales in comparison to the energy necessary to maintain a sizable grudge. The person most hurt by holding out or blaming is YOU, no matter what the circumstances.
"All this sounds good," you tell yourself, "but how can I ever forget what my partner did to me?" Good question. You don't! Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. You will probably always remember the particular injustice(s) that drove you into your corner. But what will happen is that when you forgive, the intense emotions associated with the event(s) begin to fade. You will feel happier, lighter, more loving. And these renewed positive feelings won't go unnoticed. Others will be drawn to you.
Just keep in mind that forgiveness isn't a feeling. It is a decision. You decide that you are going to start tomorrow with a clean slate. Even if it isn't easy, you make the determination that the alternative is even harder, and that you are going to do what you must to begin creating a more positive future.
So promise yourself, that no matter what the reason, you will not go another day blaming your partner and feeling lonely. Make peace. Make up. Make love. I promise you that the benefits of deciding to forgive go far beyond anything you can picture in your mind's eye at the moment. Your decision to forgive will create a ripple effect of exponential changes in your life.
I want him to have consequences for his choices
There's somebody around here - it might be 25 - who often says something like: You can't teach your H lessons. Life will teach the lessons.
Unbidden beat me to it, but when I read your recent threads, I wondered whether you have done much reading/thinking about the area of forgiveness? There's a real sense of you feeling your H doesn't 'deserve' that - but of course it isn't for him, it's for you..x
Unbidden beat me to it, but when I read your recent threads, I wondered whether you have done much reading/thinking about the area of forgiveness? There's a real sense of you feeling your H doesn't 'deserve' that - but of course it isn't for him, it's for you..x
You're so right. I need to totally back off and work on my idea of forgiveness without any strings attached.
I am not (yet) am awesome person who can forgive without feeling like they earned it.
This is what I needed....... The outside choices pushing me to think in different ways and analyze my own thoughts.
I think some of us and our partners get caught up in thinking forgiveness is saying
Your forgiven, and it's forgotten. My h did, he thought you say done and it was not that it is a process. That can take time, more time with repeated large indiscretions on their part.
So repeated cheating is huge. They say it can take 6 months, to forgive. Let alone if the person who wronged you has no desire to change. I get the picking at a scab thing you do your self, but in my h case he kept picking that wound open on my. Behalf.
He made mistakes forgiveness was maditory
Gg made deal breakers and no forgiveness reall came forth.
Thanks for posting the article unbidden.
This helped me a lot. I'm struggling with forgiving, especially myself. And we have to forgive ourselves FIRST before we can truly forgive others.
Oh I agree Jefe, I do feel a sense of wanting to punish.
I don't know how to move past that feeling. It feels as though he has had no consequences for his actions and I am the one who gets screwed for his actions. I guess (and maybe this makes me a bad person and I need to change this about myself) but I want him to have consequences for his choices.
Let's just say for a moment he hasn't had any consequences, zero. He's done bad stuff and gotten off scott free. You're carrying the hurt, anger, resentment. You want to make sure he really knows he hurt you. I mean, you just want to kick him in the groin. The fact that he's attempting to be kind right now, even "lying" about it is insulting, right?
Now, what if you reached out in love and just said "thank you"? You can't really get hurt by a cup of coffee, can you? I mean, even if he totally lied about how he got it, it's still a cup of coffee. You don't even have to forgive any of the other stuff. You don't have to trust him on any other subject. You can still be angry and hurt. Just be loving on this one, tiny act. Nothing else.
Would you be willing to try that?
Jefe, I need to respond to you but haven't the time right now to do so properly.
A good head shaking..... The ex-OW is pregnant (nope not H's) she moved on rather quickly!! He has to see her once a month at district meetings and at January's she announced she was pregnant and is sporting a small bump. There was no meeting in December and H said she didn't look pregnant for November's.... He doesn't know when she is due.
I feel sorry for her older boys who have men in/out of their lives quickly.....
I asked H how he felt about this and he said he didn't care, he said seeing her didn't bring up any feelings.
25yrs something you said about love not being wrapped the way I want it REALLY got me thinking.... I need to blog about this later.
Maybe OW will sell her house and move somewhere else with baby daddy (whoever he is) and she won't live down the street from me anymore! I could only hope!
I think what bothers me is that H thought of her as a good mother but said I was not (which he has since said isn't true, he was just angry at me and compliments me to everyone all the time) BUT the hurt over that being said is something I just can't get past.
Oh, sweetie. I feel your pain on that one. But you have to *decide* to move past what H said to you, and about you, while he was cheating.
You know it wasn't true. Holding onto it only hurts YOU.
And, fwiw, H and I had a discussion about this just last weekend. He said essentially this (all, btw, which we here already know, but it's good to hear it from the mouth of a XWAS, especially one who doesn't read the literature enough to know what it all says about how a WAS operates; in other words, these are H's own thoughts, uninfluenced by any literature on this subject):
Waywards in As are typically not "in love" with their A partners. At least not at first. They're in love with how the A partner makes them feel about THEMSELVES. Eventually, once the AP has stroked their ego for so long, the LBS looks worse and worse. Anger and resentment build and grow. Still, the WAS knows what s/he is doing is wrong. So they say mean, unfair - and outright UNTRUTHFUL - things to and about their LBS in an effort to ... here's the money shot ... make THEMSELVES look better for doing what they're doing.
What your H said had nothing to do with you, sweetie. So decide that you will move past it for YOU.
I'm no saint over here. I struggle with harboring anger toward my H for the things he said to and about me, too. But it's actually not the content of what he said that bothers me. It's that HE said it.
Big hugs.
Thanks train. I needed to hear that.
I used to feel so powerful before I met H. I used to feel like it didn't matter what other people thought.
I have become so meek and influenced by others perceptions of me. I struggle trying to find my inner "bi!#h" and some attitude.
I need to get back to exercising, I think that REALLY helped and I still have so much weight to lose.
25yrs, I get what you are saying about love. He does loving things for me all the time. If my love language were acts of service my love bank would be running over.
My love language is physical touch and he NEVER touches me anymore. So I am miserable because I crave the physical touch and don't get it but logically know that he loves me in some way because of all the things he does for me.
Ok, some things on paper so I can "think out loud"
Things H does
..brings me coffee even when I don't ask for it
..takes care of the kids and lets me sleep in
..tells me to go take a hot bath/run errands on my own and he will put the kids to bed
..starts my car if I am taking the boys to school
..does laundry, sweeps, loads dishwasher, irons
..gives me a kiss goodbye every morning
..rubs my back BUT only when asked, NEVER does he initiate touching me anytime other than the goodbye kiss
Things that are huge issues for me
..no physical touching, he doesn't physically pursue me
..no compliments, he hasn't told me I am pretty, beautiful, sexy in 2 years
..not fully transparent, won't give up the code to his phone
..doesn't say I love you
Things that are different than before (his attempts at trying?????????
..calls me/texts me when he is going to be even a few minutes late
..tells me about meetings, where and when
..talks to me about his day, who he works with and what is going on at work.
Twin, I haven't read up or been following along enough to completely understand your current situation, so I may be talking out of turn. But here goes:
Things H does
..brings me coffee even when I don't ask for it
..takes care of the kids and lets me sleep in
..tells me to go take a hot bath/run errands on my own and he will put the kids to bed
..starts my car if I am taking the boys to school
..does laundry, sweeps, loads dishwasher, irons
..gives me a kiss goodbye every morning
..rubs my back BUT only when asked, NEVER does he initiate touching me anytime other than the goodbye kiss
Things that are different than before (his attempts at trying?????????)
..calls me/texts me when he is going to be even a few minutes late
..tells me about meetings, where and when
..talks to me about his day, who he works with and what is going on at work.
I presume he's doing this w/o being asked to do so?
Things that are huge issues for me
..no physical touching, he doesn't physically pursue me
..no compliments, he hasn't told me I am pretty, beautiful, sexy in 2 years
..not fully transparent, won't give up the code to his phone
..doesn't say I love you
Does he say "I love you" back when you say it first, or not at all? How were the compliments, pretty, sexy, etc, earlier in the marriage? Is this an anomaly or has he always struggled with pursuing you and complimenting you?
Before you guys got married who pursued who to start the relationship?
And, Twin, I don't think you need to "find" your inner bit¢h. I happen to know first hand you can find it when needed. You'll attract more flies with honey. That being said, you do need to set kind and loving boundaries, everywhere in life. Don't people please, bust don't be a bit¢h either. Just my 2¢.
Jefe, when we first started dating he pursued me. Like insane crazy! (Too bad he was married and I didn't know it)
He would tell me I was beautiful and sexy and literally be ALL OVER me 24/7 and if I forgot to say "I love you" when ending a phone conversation he would be upset.
He used to be "vocal"in bed, telling me how amazing I was and that it had never felt so good before..... After the twins that stopped. He will day I love you too, if I say it first but I don't say it anymore.
I don't ask him to call/text me when he is going to be late but I have had a conversation months ago where I said that during our marriage I would have complained a lot less about him being late if he would just take two seconds and text me.
My personal opinion is he has an addiction problem (pea love addiction)
This is affair #5 in his life (not during our marriage)
He has a family history of drug/alcohol addiction, that is why he has never even had a drop of alcohol. He previously had a gambling problem but has not gone to a casino in over 5 years.
He won't admit this/get help so I am just waiting for another affair.......
Honestly, that is not what I expected you to say. But it definitely sheds some light on things.
I would probably agree with your addiction theory in part. I think he is addicted to the initial "In Love/passionate" phase of a relationship but when reality sets in (Hi honey, here are some twins to care for and raise) it stops being passionate and starts being work.
Question, how's his maturity level in other areas of his life?
Jefe, during his first marriage he had two affairs. My relationship being the second. During the first affair he told his wife (after 4 years of marriage) he was leaving her for another woman. He "came to his senses 3 days later"
He was with his ex wife for 14 years, married for 8 years. They didn't have any kids. They had been trying for a while without success. Side note, his ex wife is remarried and very happy, still without kids though so I think it's a fertility issue with her :-(
He is the oldest of 5 boys and in every other area very mature. He is driven at work and constantly looks to succeed. He is EXTREMELY competitive. Beyond loves sports, as in he runs 2 fantasy football leagues, constantly watches certain teams and reads everything he possibly can about the players and coaches. He knows so much about his favorite teams (Duke basketball, Notre Dame football, Cubs, Bears and Payton Manning)
He is the only one of his brothers to have a college degree. Besides previously not giving a sh!# about his kids growing up in the "traditional" sense of the term haiku he is an excellent father. He always puts their needs first and is very mature and responsible.
I know years ago he had a gambling problem and had to file bankruptcy. He seems to have learned his lesson and ever since I met him he is very responsible and mature regarding financials.
He is conflict avoident to an extreme.
Wow, Twin. You have an interesting series of dynamics going on in your relationship and within him.
Just the way you describe him above, you do so lovingly, I know you want to save your marriage. Is he committed?
Jefe - you really should read Twin's threads - there's a lot of back story there. Twin is doing well to maintain a very cautious skepticism re H.
Jefe, that's a good question..... I don't know, so I just asked....
"Depends on the day"
Twin...he's a serial adulterer and a previous gambling addict who just swapped one addiction for another. You're focusing on crumbs when really he's not showing you any of the behaviors that would go with a sincere effort to address his issues and repair his relationship with you.
I know it's convenient to have him around right now with the baby, but don't get sucked back in to the relationship unless he DOES THE WORK.
Kml, I know you and train are right. I wish you weren't but you are.
Just kind of journaling.....
I had come up with a really good line to put an end to the morning kiss goodbye..
"I'm worth so much more than just a kiss goodbye every morning"
But both Monday night and Tuesday night H reached over in bed and touched me and kissed me. So darn, that line won't work right now..... just going to have to set a firm boundary of don't touch me...
Can I just say I am tired!!!!!!
Working like a CRAZY person the past few weeks and H has inventory tomorrow so he has been putting in 14hr days this entire week.
I think I might go sleep in my van if I can get a babysitter for an hour tomorrow!
On a positive note I was assigned an AWESOME mystery shop for a color (highlights), cut and blow dry downtown Chicago at Sassoon Salon...... I get paid $25 to get a $350 hair service. I have been doing little crappy jobs for this company and really putting a lot of effort into them hoping they would assign me one of the awesome jobs.
I am still "paying my dues" with another company that does a lot of the high end hotels downtown Chicago and the casinos.... can't wait to get paid to indulge at the spa, gamble and kick back at a 5 star hotel with room service!
Oh well, I will keep doing the little jobs like McDonald's, Exxon, Lowe's, Yankee candle, North Face, etc......
Does this count as GAL???
TM, I've been reading a book called something like Make Up, Don't Break Up and there is a chapter on infidelity and one of the author's theories is that adultery results sometimes from the cheating spouse's unconscious desires to resolve childhood attachment woundings and that serial cheaters sometimes have had a change in hormones in childhood which makes the rush of adultery more impactful to them. Anyway, it has whole chapters on forgiveness and she refers to some of the feelings you've described here. Might be worth a look.
Hope you had a great time at the salon! I miss Chicago.
Thanks unbidden..... I am going to search for that one now on Google play
Interesting theory unbidden on your book reference.
Twinmom...I totally count a "got paid to" spa day as GAL!