Peter I don't think cake eating has to include another man. To me cake eating is when she has the best of both worlds. Basically she has the best of you without making a firm commitment to the marriage and being transparent along with doing whatever it takes to meet YOUR needs.
You're still in db mode where she is living at home but with no commitment.
She's only been back home for 3 weeks and most of that time was spent moving back in and getting the house in order. It seems to me things are getting better daily, we spend a lot of quality time together, but she's still coming to terms with her wayward past and needs time to find herself again. I'll be patient. In five weeks the RH will be sold and we'll be sleeping under the same roof again - just in separate rooms. Baby steps.
Peter
It does seem that your W is moving towards your M, not away. I also agree that the transparency issue is tricky. I know everyone on the boards says it is the only way to reconcile. How can there be trust without transparency. My W also refuses to provide it but yet says she wants our M to work.
I also agree about letting your mind get carried away. I do the same thing.
Ultimately, transparency is necessary to move you back to trusting your W. Without it, can you ever heal? Maybe, but it will take years. I think we both are in potentially very destructive/unhealthy relationships where we could get hurt. We are spending time with our Ws, having fun, laughing, etc. Is that cake eating? I don't think so. As you said, your W is working through her own demons but at least she is trying to do it with you.
Shodan, thanks for your words of encouragement. Yes it's a delicate sitch, and hence I don't want to sabotage it by demanding transparency as that will be seen as pressuring. When she's ready to let me into her world a little more she'll do it on her own terms and in her own time.
By me choosing to trust her, that opens up the space for her to come into that world without me issuing ultimatums or demands - those things only backfire. I choose the path of love and acceptance of the time things take.
True there is the potential for heartbreak, but my heart's already broken. And its mending is not going too well following the path I was taking with all the suspicion and lack of trust. Hence the 180.
Hey, I have my own dark secrets from my past that I choose not to share at this time. Some things are best left unspoken. I'm sure she has some too, and I'm willing to let them remain hidden if they serve no purpose towards reconciliation. I'd rather just move forward from this point.
I know everyone on the boards says it is the only way to reconcile
Not true. It is NOT the only way. Many people on here have reconciled without demanding total transparency. It is NOT a requirement and it is not true that you can't have trust without total transparency. It is an individual choice. Don't let other posters put things in your head that could cause you to fail at reconciling. One person may need total transparency and another does not. Don't let the one who needs it convince you that you can't trust without it. You most certainly can and many have. If you don't need it, then move on and work on your relationship.
I can think of 3 right off the top of my head that are still posting here that I have never heard say they had total transparency as a requirement. All three seem to be doing just fine.
If you need it, then it works best to get it when the wayward is coming back and WANTS to reconcile. You can then use it as leverage BEFORE you agree to reconcile. After reconciling it is in my opinion a detriment to the relationship to ask or demand total transparency and causes more strife than it is worth.... The former wayward almost always fights against it once you are already in the middle of reconciling and then tell them you want total transparency....
Pick your battles wisely.. If it's a deal breaker, then don't reconcile without it. If it's not, then move on past it. You can most certainly learn to trust again.
JCred, thanks for the viewpoint. I agree. I choose to trust.
I agree with Justin's comments. Well said, Justin.
Merry Christmas!
I've been tempted in the last couple of days to say to my W, "I trust you completely", but I'm not sure if that will be perceived as weak, or as pressuring - as if expecting her to return the favour.
Today I gave her a Christmas present - a star-shaped charm for her charm bracelet. Along with it I penned a note about the North Star being a guide used by sailors caught in a storm - the star won't create a safe harbour, but it can guide the sailors to a safe harbour. Then I wrote 3 lines:
To be the best each of us can be
Self-improvement
Commitment
These are the 3 North Stars that I see that our relationship should use as guides, but I didn't connect the dots like that. I figured just be a bit poetic and leave it at that.
I ended the script with "You are my star". She loved it. But I'm not sure she understood the deeper meaning. This is all based on Lee Baucom's ebook about strengthening relationships. Anyway, at least it will be a bit of foreshadowing if we can get to the point where she'll join me in the quest to reconcile and read that book.
Still we had a good day together, and she even commented so as I tucked her into bed before heading to the RH for the night.
I would like to take this moment to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and to thank everyone on this forum for the amazing advice and challenging dialogue I've engaged with you in over the past year. I would not be where I am today in my path to reconciliation had it not been for the love and wisdom of you all. Thank you a hundred times over!
I'm still in my situation similar to yours except my wife is still talking moving out just started Friday her place is finally ready, and I'm just so exhausted with trying to make it when all she does is lie and hurt
I'm still in my situation similar to yours except my wife is still talking moving out just started Friday her place is finally ready, and I'm just so exhausted with trying to make it when all she does is lie and hurt
I feel like my respect for myself has to be important to me and being what God created me to be not being a doormat allowing trash like this in my life its like my wife does all of this regardless of me and our children but acts like she's the perfect person to our kids but is only ripping their lives apart with her own hands like proverb 31 says
I have to act like we're a happy couple and family around people and my kids to save face and not feel embarrassed by my betraying wife it shucks i just want to yell and get revenge on her for taking me thru this and wasting almost 16 years of my life, that's the way i feel
Got home late last night from visiting family out of town for 3 days. W wasn't home. Fed the cat & went to the RH for the night shift.
When I came home this morning W was not home. Then my imagination started up it's usual tirade. Argh!
After noon I finally texted her saying I was worried if she's ok - where is she? She replied right away that she was in Florida visiting her friend (ok - no romantic intentions). I knew she planned on going to FL but she also said she'd still be home when I came back from out of town. However I was about 4 hours behind my intended schedule & sent her a text when I left on the 6 hour drive. Still she could have replied to that text, saying sorry I missed you - have my flight to catch. But nothing. Not until I sent her the text this afternoon.
Exchanged a few texts - she apologized for worrying me. Later this pm I called her and we spoke. Everything is good.
It's just my imagination that starts to think she's bunking up with the OM even though he's been out of the picture for 6 months. Tough to stop those thought.
She's taking a vacation for about 10 days or so.
She was very ill with the flu from Christmas eve until the 28th. Still very tired and run down. Hopefully some FL sunshine helps.
I still need to express that I would like to be informed of her whereabouts so I need not worry if she's alright. Not to be controlling but because I care about her. I just need to have it come from a position of love, not anger or fear.
Peter,
Those stray thoughts are thorns in our sides. Ugh, go away already!
I hope the Florida trip is what the doctor ordered for your W. Maybe she'll come back all sunshine and you might get lucky.
I like your thought process of how you plan to approach W about keeping you in the loop when being away for long periods: from a place of love. That's the way to go, buddy.
So I sent W a text on Tuesday
Me: I'm a little worried about you. You didn't come home last night. You Ok?
W: Hello. Hope you and the Bubbas (cats) are well
M: Bubbas are fine
W: I'll call in a couple of days. Weather is good.
M: Where are you?
W: I'm tired. Getting better. Florida.
M: Thanks. Would have been nice to know. I was worried. Enjoy.
W: Did not mean to, sorry. I'm good.
M: I'm relieved that you're ok.
W: K
Then later on in the day I got a phone call but didn't get to the phone in time - went to message, no message.
So I called W. Apparently it wasn't her who called, but still we talked for a while. She's just going to sleep a lot for a couple of days. Still recuperating from the flu. But she was friendly and relaxed. She explained that after her hair appointment yesterday she went to a friend's place and then straight to the airport.
I was supposed to be home around 4pm but I had been delayed and didn't get back until 8:30 so I guess we may have seen each other before she left if I wasn't so late.
I did send her a text when I was leaving at 2:30 so I would have been nice if she had sent me a text from the airport saying sorry I missed you.
So the question is, how do I express that I want better communication so I'm not left in the dark. I think it's only fair that she at least sends me a text saying, "at the airport, on my way to FL. See you when I return. We'll talk later - I'll call you when I land..." or something to that effect. I think it's only common courtesy.
Of course only 12 months ago she was lying to me and sleeping with another man, so I guess this is progress. The Affair ended in May I believe. But she's got a big hole to climb out of still.
She has no idea how hard this past year has been on me, and if I bring it up she dismisses it, saying she's been dealing with this pain for 10 years. She's just spewing and I don't take it personally. She's obviously got some issues to deal with personally. I'll support her in her quest for finding herself, but I still need to draw the line when it comes to how she treats me.
If it looks like I'm making excuses for her, it's just that I'm trying to see things from her perspective - trying to be more empathetic. I'm trying to figure out her worldview by how she interacts with me. I'm no mind reader, but I can see that she has a lot of guilt and shame attached to her behaviour a year ago and that she tries to mitigate it using justifications and making me the scapegoat. I really should call her on that when she does it. I know it would end up by her getting angry, defensive and blaming me more, but as long as I keep a clear head and don't allow myself to get dragged into a grudge match I could prevail. Not that it's a contest, but when we get into relationship discussions it often ends in tears: mine, hers or both.
Last night I was playing a New Years gig with my band - rocking it out. W sent me a text at midnight wishing me a Happy New Year full of wonder, peace, love and prosperity. That is good (as long as the wonder isn't wondering where she is).
Today she phoned me to tell me she was going to the beach with her friend's wife and won't take her phone so I don't worry if I get no response from any text I may send. That was good of her.
I told her that I trusted her completely and that it's only because I care for her that I worry if I don't know where she is because strange stuff can happen.
She said she'll call again on Saturday. I am a relieved that she took it well and that I stated that I trusted her in a non-pursuing way.
I do get thoughts running through my brain that I don't want to live in this sitch much longer, but then I snap out of it, realizing that this is indeed a marathon - an awful long one at that. Ei!
So W came back from FL today. Sent me a text this morning asking me how I was. I replied and asked her when she was planning on returning and she replied saying she's on her way. I've been renovating our ensuite bathroom and wanted it done before she returned, but when she said she was on her way I knew I had only about 6 hours to finish it - so mad dash to the paint store and worked like a madman. When she got home I had most of the mess cleaned up and she was impressed with the reno.
When she came in she gave me a long hard hug. That was nice. But hesitant to kiss because she's still a bit sick. I didn't care.
She cooked me a great supper (she had already eaten on the way) and then we had a glass of wine and talked about all sorts of things. Everything seems good.
I think my decision to trust her fully paid off. My mind is not playing tricks on me thinking she's off with the OM. She told about how she spent her vacation, mostly with a couple of lady friends. I'm in much better shape mentally now. More PMA, more confidence and acting lovingly toward her.
Funny how choosing what to think and how to think can affect one's sitch. It just goes to show that the only thing I'm in control of is me and my own mind and when I take control of my mind it can reap benefits - especially to my own sanity.
Peter,
Great post! I like your PMA and it looks like things are positive. Keep up the great work. The personal growth you have made is great. Love how you have stick with it. Kudos to you!
Watching and waiting,
Dev
Ok, so since the holidays the limbo has continued. We are like room mates although I'm spending the nights at the RH. Last night we went out to dinner and a show with our D & her fiancé. Had a great time and all was good. W dropped me off at RH late and this morning she came to pick me up. When we got home I had breakfast and we had coffees. Then I asked for a hug. We had a long hug and she asked what's wrong. I just told her I was feeling a little emotional today. So we went outside for a smoke and to talk.
Same old talk - she needs to find herself. Unsure if my changes are permanent. Doesn't have feelings for me and not sure how to get them back if they ever could come back. It was a draining convo for her. I told her what she meant to me and that I loved her. I said with all the food she's been cooking for me it seems like she loves me. And then she said she does love me. But she's still not sure how we are to fix the M.
I didn't want to start on about getting counselling or reading books or going to retrouville or anything. I just said there are ways to fix it and left it at that. I could sense she was getting emotionally drained. Then she didn't feel good and went upstairs and laid down. I brought her some stomach med and ginger ale and heated up a heating pad for her and she laid down while I went into the office and worked on RH sales and accounting for a while before heading to the bank & picking up some groceries.
When I got back I laid down beside her and we watched TV for the afternoon and evening. She fell asleep and then when I left for the RH for the night she hugged me goodbye and then asked if I'm ok. I said as good as can be expected - I'll be fine, and left.
We spoke briefly on the phone after I got settled in and she's still feeling drained.
She had said at one point she feels like she's disappointed me. I told her time heals all wounds. She said it's been a tumultuous year to which I agreed and added that once the RH sells or fills up things will be better and we'll be able to breath a sign of relief. She agreed.
I'm thinking of suggesting Retrouvielle, but I think I'll wait until we know what's happening with the RH sale. It could be delayed another month.
Today W was away all day - had an early breakfast meeting and then went into the city to pick up some things. Got back late so we only had about 45 minutes to spend together.
She had gone with a friend to the city in the friend's Mini Cooper. W said she didn't like it - too low. Prefers her SUV. I told her she used to wish for a Mini Cooper. She said yeah she did used to want one but not now. I said to her, see, feelings change.
Then later when I was leaving we hugged and I told her ILY. And to my surprise she said, genuinely, "I love you too".
Wow.
It's been a long time that I heard those word come from her lips. What a welcomed relief. I am overjoyed. I don't want to read too much into it or get overly excited but to me it's a bit of a watershed moment.
RH sale is being delayed another month, but we're working on it. There's a lot of positive movement. In all aspects of my life. I just bought another business that I can incorporate into my existing business and that'll provide more cash flow for us.
My W loves me. Now she just has to fall in love with me again. Baby steps. I'd say were now at a 5.0
Good job, Peter. That's awesome news on all fronts.
Peter
I just caught up on our post. My W and I are in a similar spot. We are coexisting and having fun but I know I am more into the R than she is. She says she loves me (normally in response to me saying it but she has left me a few messages where she ends the voicemail with "love you") but I sense that she is not "in love" with me.
I also have the same text relationship with my W. I want more from her b/c it is a common courtesy between husband and wife. I also want her to want to text/call me. But, she has to want to do those things. Asking her for it may provide some assurance but does it really help in the long term if she is doing it b/c you asked for it rather than b/c she wants to.
I think both of us see how to fix the M but our wives do not see it so clearly. It still will take a ton of time so I agree with your assessment to look at the positives and the changes in the past 6-12 months. But, don't let your self worth rely on these interactions. Don't let her feelings for you determine whether you have a good day or not.
Got into a bit of a R talk this evening. Round and round the same old crap. She can't get past the past. Doesn't want any pressure. Wants time in isolation to gather her thoughts.
Maybe I said too much, but I just want to start on the reconciliation process. She's nowhere near ready.
It's driving me crazy. If I could leave town for a while I would, but there's too much on my plate right now.
Yeah I hear you Shodan. It's just so hard sometimes. Good days & bad days. We both have them. I'm just a little down today. Gotta pull myself up by the bootstraps.
Starsky recommended me the book "Boundaries" by John Townsend. Maybe that'll help you some in your situation.
Also remind yourself that women want to be told what they have to do sometimes. Your situation might need some leadership. But it's a fine line betwwen pressure and taking charge of the moment. Do it with love. But don't let her slip away, that's what happened to me.
Hope it helps.
I realize I can't let her feelings affect me. She may say things to blame me for past ills or bring up past transgressions to justify her present coolness.
Those are her current feelings and are valid for her. No sense me arguing my reasoning for past ills. I won't argue. I'll just acknowledge her feelings.
And furthermore, just because she's expressing her feelings does not mean it's about me. It's about her, and her reactions to her own thoughts. It's not about me. So therefore I should not take her expression of those feelings personally.
When I used to take them personally, I would get into a sparring match about justifying what I used to do, or explaining where I was at in my mind in those days. Totally counterproductive and useless in moving forward. We'd just go around the same old circle again and again.
So I've decided not to take any of her blaming personally. It's just her expressing her reactions to her own thoughts. I'll just listen and validate the fact that her feelings must be tough to deal with on a daily basis.
I'll just listen and stop arguing. I won't get defensive and I'll let her vent - that's what she needs and I'll be there to meet those needs. I'll be a compassionate and empathetic listener. I won't try to fix it. I won't defend past actions. I cannot change the past. I can only change how I react to the situations that arise today in this moment.
Got the mobile phone bill today and it was higher than usual so I looked at it closely and saw that she call the OM on Jan 3 when she was in Florida. I'm devastated once again. Or maybe I'm just angry. I had told her a few days earlier that I trusted her completely. Obviously I'm mistaken to have trusted her.
When she gets back from Cancun I think I'll ask her what that was all about - is she seeing him again? Or did she call him to tell him she's leaving him for good. IDK. Or planning her exit from a life with me. I'm just mind reading and here I go again with my vivid imagination.
But it is infuriating. I think it's time to set some boundaries.
I agree with the boundaries.... I need to do the same!
I think it's time to set some boundaries.
Long overdue.
Starsky
So I had a session with my MC today. W is away in Cancun with her "girlfriends" until Sunday or Monday. I've decided to tell her when she gets home that I cannot live in limbo anymore and need to know if she is ready to reconcile. And we'll get together on Friday for her to give me an answer. In the meantime if she needs to talk to our MC or someone she has time to mull it over. If she chooses to reconcile then that means full transparency, counselling, physical intimacy and a lot of work at fixing the marriage. If she chooses not to reconcile then it's over and we move on, but I cannot take this limbo anymore.
I'm moving back home on Sunday night. I've hire a couple of people to do the nights at the RH which W used to do but I've been doing since end of November. I want to sleep in my own bed again. I can't take it anymore and I'm willing to pay people to do the night shifts - mostly sleeping. Sure it's costing my corporation a few bucks but my sanity is worth it. And W's corporation is not hiring them - mine is. So she has no recourse to blame me for hiring behind her back, even though I've been running the RH since November at the same time as running my own business.
I'm now at the end of my rope. This is the After The Last Resort technique. I'll let y'all know how it works out. My MC doesn't think her choice will be reconciliation. There will be much crying and gnashing of teeth. She'll say I'm pressuring her. That I'm only concerned for my own agenda. But I will be firm and say that it's been a year and I cannot live in limbo anymore. And I'm prepared fully for any eventuality that may propagate from this so-called ultimatum. But I'll deliver it just from my own authentic feelings that I cannot live in limbo.
My hope is that she decides to reconcile. But it could go either way. I just need to be gentle and calm and loving and firm. I've done a lot of work on myself over the past year and I'm proud of my progress and comfortable in my own skin. So whatever happens I'm ok with. I'll be ok. The pain will go away. I deserve to be loved. Whether it's my W who ends up loving me or someone else, I'll be ok. I just need to give love.
Peter
Sorry you are at this point, but I am thinking of you. You've always had great words for me and I wish I could give you back the same.
I really feel like I am right along side of you with our journeys.
you WILL be ok.
I've decided to tell her when she gets home that I cannot live in limbo anymore and need to know if she is ready to reconcile. And we'll get together on Friday for her to give me an answer. In the meantime if she needs to talk to our MC or someone she has time to mull it over. If she chooses to reconcile then that means full transparency, counselling, physical intimacy and a lot of work at fixing the marriage. If she chooses not to reconcile then it's over and we move on, but I cannot take this limbo anymore.
Peter, just food for thought...Last fall I decided to give my W the same 'ultimatum'. We had been acting friendly towards each other, but she continued to give me the 'I need time to gather my thoughts' line your W continues to give you. Meanwhile, she was continuing some type of R with OM ( I discovered her trip with 'friends' included him) and I had had enough. I decided I would give her one last chance to work things out when she got home. Finally, after taking every bit of the deadline I gave her to give me an answer, she agreed to MC, no contact, working on our R, etc. However, looking back on it, she wasn't 'ready' to do that hard work. We lasted maybe 4 MC sessions before she bailed, saying she needed some time to be on her own.
I'm not at all discouraging you from taking action or establishing your boundaries. I just want you to be prepared for any potential outcomes. If she decides to 'try' for a month, then backs out, what will you do then?
I've decided to tell her when she gets home that I cannot live in limbo anymore and need to know if she is ready to reconcile. And we'll get together on Friday for her to give me an answer. In the meantime if she needs to talk to our MC or someone she has time to mull it over. If she chooses to reconcile then that means full transparency, counselling, physical intimacy and a lot of work at fixing the marriage. If she chooses not to reconcile then it's over and we move on, but I cannot take this limbo anymore.
Peter, just food for thought...Last fall I decided to give my W the same 'ultimatum'. We had been acting friendly towards each other, but she continued to give me the 'I need time to gather my thoughts' line your W continues to give you. Meanwhile, she was continuing some type of R with OM ( I discovered her trip with 'friends' included him) and I had had enough. I decided I would give her one last chance to work things out when she got home. Finally, after taking every bit of the deadline I gave her to give me an answer, she agreed to MC, no contact, working on our R, etc. However, looking back on it, she wasn't 'ready' to do that hard work. We lasted maybe 4 MC sessions before she bailed, saying she needed some time to be on her own.
I'm not at all discouraging you from taking action or establishing your boundaries. I just want you to be prepared for any potential outcomes. If she decides to 'try' for a month, then backs out, what will you do then?
This is a very wise train of thought for you, Peter ^^^.
One of the reasons I'm always against giving a wayward spouse a deadline (say, 30 days) is that they will inevitably treat that as your tacit approval of their infidelity for 29 days, upon which they will then promise you the moon and the stars not to leave them, and that they want to work on the marriage!
It's ALWAYS best to communicate your non-negotiable boundaries of personal integrity -- your "dealbreakers," as it were -- when the WAYWARD comes to you and asks "I'll do anything; what will it take?" . . . but that doesn't always happen. So you then have to decide if they DON'T do that, then when am I truly "done" and I might as will communicate the ultimatum anyway, because living like this is something I can no longer abide?
It sounds like you are at that point. Please be SURE you are, because this CANNOT be a tactic -- the ULTIMATE tactic, the last "hole card" -- to get her back. You should ONLY do this if you truly ARE, done.
Are you?
Starsky
I'm done. It's not the last tactic to get her back. It's giving her one last chance to do the right thing. Both I and my MC think she will not agree to R.
I can no longer live in limbo. Especially when she's lying.
That's why I'm moving back into the bedroom. Because I need to stand my ground. I'm not moving out of the house. If she doesn't like it she can find an apartment. I'm not going to be mean about it though.
But I need the strength to withstand her spewing because I can already feel it. My gut's in a knot.
Tarheel, if she decides to try it for a month and then bails, well at least we tried. If she bails then it's over. I move on to a new life without her raining on my parade.
Yes I'm prepared to end it for good. I'm a good man. I will be loved again.
If she needs to work on herself, I'm not stopping her from working on herself, but she can either do it inside our M or outside of our M. I cannot live in limbo any longer.
So when W gets back from Cancun on Sunday or Monday, I'll say this:
I've been striving for over a year to rebuild our marriage and there's nothing more that I would like than for both of us to be happily married to each other, and in light of that I would like to renew our vows, perhaps on summer solstice. And in preparation for that we would need to commit to reconciliation right away. I'll give you the week to think about it, because I can no longer live in limbo. Let's have dinner on Friday when we can talk and you can let me know your decision.
Hi Peter, I'm just not sure about the focus on renewing vows and summer solstice and better start preparing now. Would it be best to lose that part and just stick with the rest, with the focus being - I'm not going to live in limbo any more...so its time to make up your mind and you have until Friday?
Hi Peter, I'm just not sure about the focus on renewing vows and summer solstice and better start preparing now. Would it be best to lose that part and just stick with the rest, with the focus being - I'm not going to live in limbo any more...so its time to make up your mind and you have until Friday?
Stole my thunder. I was thinking the exact same thing.
Agreed. That will put immense pressure on her. Not only for the decision if she wants to R, but also during the process if she will.
Wish you the best of luck Peter...either way I hope you'll feel better.
Love is all about decisions sometimes. And you made yours, now she has to make hers, fair enough.
You'll be fine either way!
Problem with ultimatums is the following through. W might not even 100% realize how serious you are, and I hope you really are. She might say yes and then ditch out, or she might say no and then regret wanting to come back one day.
I hope you prepare yourself for different outcomes.
I don't view it as an ultimatum.
An ultimatum is a demand whose fulfillment is requested in a specified period of time and which is backed up by a threat to be followed through in case of noncompliance.
There's no threat to be followed through in case of noncompliance. In fact there's not even an issue of compliance or noncompliance.
I'm just saying I can't take the limbo anymore so let me know if you're willing to reconcile. Just make a decision one way or the other because I cannot continue in this state of limbo. I fear the continued stress of living in this state of limbo will compromise my health. Cortisol is a neurotoxin and has many negative effects on one's health. If I get sick and unable to work then that does neither of us any good. So in order to prevent my breakdown I need to move out of this state of limbo.
True the initial result of moving out of this limbo will be even more stress, but hopefully that will be short-lived and with a light at the end of the tunnel, whichever tunnel I end up in, I will be able to relax, knowing which path I'm on, and working toward that goal, whether it be a happy marriage, or a happy divorce.
Toots & Starsky, I agree. I'll drop the vow renewal bit and stick to the point.
W might not even 100% realize how serious you are, and I hope you really are. She might say yes and then ditch out, or she might say no and then regret wanting to come back one day.
I hope you prepare yourself for different outcomes.
I'm 100% serious. I should maybe tell her that specifically, just so she realizes it.
If she says yes then great. If later she ditches out then it's over, period.
If she says no, then I move on. If she has regrets later then that's her problem. If later she wants to come back then, depending on how my world looks at that time, I may or may not consider it. She would need to meet my standards so depending on where she would be at, it may be a lot of work for her for me even to consider it after everything that has come to pass.
Peter,
I would suggest that you lovingly present your needs to W and say that it is no longer working. It is up to her to step up the plate and figure a way to satisfy both of your needs in the M.
Fingers crossed that your talk goes well with W.
Wonka, what do you me by "my needs"? That I need to get out of this limbo? That I need to live at home? That I need to have her reconcile with me? The I need transparency and honesty? That I need sex and intimacy? That I need for her to have NC with OM?
How far do I go?
Yes, I was wondering about going for a slightly different angle - where you say to her - "how things have been with us recently - examples....this isn't working for me. I need X and Y. I really need you to think about whether you can do this, because I can't do it in this way any more. And I'm moving on unless this changes.."
Is it more powerful to say it this way?
I'm sleeping in my own bed tonight for the first time in over 2 months. It feels good. She's still away. May be back tomorrow. There will be much gnashing of teeth that I'm back in the house, as she had said a couple months ago that she needs time by herself.
Well she's had two months by herself, and I can't take it anymore, sleeping away from home every night. I still need to sleep at the RH Fridays and Saturdays, but I can handle that. At least I have some sense of home. And I am a homebody. It's one of my needs.
I'm not sure telling her I need X & Y or I'm moving on is right. That sounds like an ultimatum as it entails compliance to demands (meet my needs) and a threat (I'll leave). I disagree to the ultimatum tactic.
By me just saying I can no longer live in limbo. Let me know if you're willing to reconcile. It's more about me taking control of my life, not controlling hers. It doesn't matter which way she decides to answer: willing or unwilling. The only demand is that I need an answer one way or another. She must realize that which way she answers determine my path.
Peter,
I get that you're in emotional pain after starving of intimacy from your own W.
Before you talk with W, I suggest that you read the Nonviolent Communication book by Marshall Rosenberg and The Soulmate Experience: A Practical Guide to Creating Extraordinary Relationships by Mali Apple and Joe Dunn.
These two books forced me to reflect on my values, my needs, and my worldview on what a healthy relationship looks like to me. It has opened up some avenues for me and changed my perspectives in some ways.
Mind you, I am not 100% in agreement with EVERYTHING that the Soulmate Experience authors say. However, there were some useful nuggets.
There's another book that I'm currently reading at the moment that has helped me reframe many things from my past, my present and my future path:
Intellectual Foreplay: Questions for Lovers and Lovers-To-Be by Eve Eschner Hogan with Steven Hogan
Wonka, Ok I ordered Nonviolent Communication and Intellectual Foreplay. But they won't arrive for a week. I could put the whole thing off for a couple of weeks, but will I learn anything from those books that will get me out of limbo, or will it only help me to communicate better my need to get out of limbo?
Peter,
For a life-changing convo with W, I think you owe it yourself and W to leave no stone unturned so you can look in the mirror and say, "I gave it all. I gave it my best shot."
I think the Nonviolent Communication book will help you formulate how to approach W and communicate your needs in a loving way.
As for ending the limbo, it will be something you will decide in due course after reading the book.
As you well know, it takes two to tango. It has to be done with the full free-will choices of both partners.
I am all for better and improved communication regardless of what happens in your sitch. If your W isn't interested in having a better, improved M with you, then the next lady love will be very lucky to have you! And reap the benefits of your hard self-work.
The way I look at it, you have absolutely nothing to lose by reading these books and everything to lose. Right?
Hi Perter, found your message to drop by. Sure wish I could give you a good shot of ........something to encourage you. It sounds as if she keeps going around that same old mountain.
Round and round the same old crap. She can't get past the past. Doesn't want any pressure. Wants time in isolation to gather her thoughts.
But she doesn't stay isolate, right? She takes a trip or spends time with friends, etc. you have thought more than once the A was over, only to discover she was still in contact with him. And as for her not getting over the past? She could if she want to, Peter. She does not want to turn lose of the resentment.
So, these are her issues b/c you have done all you know to do to help relieve the pressure at work, apologize for the past, give her space and time.......and yet, she is still giving you the same old b.s.
Yes, she will be more than a little pi$$ed that moved back while she was gone.
You say if she's not willing to R, you will move on. What if she doesn't you give you a simple yes or no answer? What if she falls back on the usual stuff she's used all these months? How do you see "moving on" then?
I don't blame you for taking your bed back, but she is going to be one mad mamma. She will probably blame for her having to go back to the RH. But then.....she blames you anyway, so..........
I think you have tried to pin her down to make a decision before, and it didn't happen. I hope it goes better this time around.
Ok Wonka, I may postpone my talk until I've read the book. I think we'll have enough to deal with regarding me moving back home. I just want to be home. Even if I sleep on the couch or in the spare bedroom. I'd prefer my own bed, but I'm willing to cooperate to a degree.
But yeah, Sandi, she'll be pi$$ed that I'm back home. But It's just sleeping anyway. My office is in the house and I'm here daily from 8am to 8pm anyway. I just can't continue sleeping at the RH. It may not sell this month either - we still need to fill 3 more rooms, but I'm working on that daily.
But even if she's pi$$ed that I moved back in while she was gone, I'm pi$$ed that she's called the OM last month. Even if it was an innocuous call, it's still contact and she claimed NC so she's still lying to me. Perhaps, giving her the benefit of the doubt it was a one time moment of weakness.
But when she goes on a vacation to somewhere in Cancun with girl friends that she says I'll never meet, it strikes me as suspicious. But I'm not going to let my imagination run away with me. I'll just deal with the spewing while I read the new books Wonka suggested.
She doesn't have to go back to the RH. I hired someone to do the nights, at least 5 days of the week. I don't mind doing Friday & Saturday nights. At least I'm sleeping at home most of the time. And I didn't hire the person on her payroll. I hired the person on my own company's payroll so she can't say I did an unauthorised hiring. And it's her head staff person, so she can't complain that she's not qualified. The lady welcomed the chance to make a few extra bucks and she does the morning shift once she's done the night (mostly sleeping) so it works out fine for all (except maybe W who'll be mad, but she's mad anyway, so no real change to the status quo there).
Peter,
From what I've read here, it seems that the RH is a stressor for both you and W. Why don't you lose the RH and sell it? I mean, that'd be one thing checked off the list. It may be the necessary step to heal your M. Why continue with the risk by keeping running the RH to the detriment of your M and health (both of you)?
Be firm and don't say too much. I've learned this lesson the hard way, actions always speak louder than words.
Thanks for the book tips Wonka.
I have also noticed that whenever your W leaves for a few days, this is when you get the urge to have these talks with her. Why, do you suppose?
Wonka, the RH has a buyer but they can't get financing unless it's 75% occupied, but right now it's only 36% occupied due to move outs and deaths. I'm working with referral services and others daily to try to bring more people in. It's a long sales cycle but since I'm in sales anyway in my business, I've take over the sales for the RH and just sign one person up last week.
Yes the RH is big stressor. The sale of it is supposed to close on Feb 27 but we still need 3 more residents to sign up. I have about 20 in my prospecting followup list that I call regularly to convince them to move in but it's a life changing move so people tend to take their time making up their minds.
Maybe I'll put off the R talk until the home sells.
It felt good to sleep in my own bed again last night. I slept really well. W gets home today. We'll see how well I sleep tonight. She told me 2 months ago that she's moving back home and when the RH sells I'll have to get myself an apartment. I didn't agree at the time.
Here's some mind reading and imaginary thoughts: W is still planning a life with OM but needs to keep me around to take care of things until the RH sells. Has moved into the house so she can tell the judge that I don't live at home anymore so she should get the matrimonial home. She just spent a week in Cancun with him and has a beautiful life with him planned.
Alternate version: W just touched base with OM in Jan to tell him she's doing well and working on our M. Moved into the house to get away from the stress of the RH (which I know first hand is real). Just spent a week in Cancun with her girlfriends and is looking forward to seeing me again.
I don't know which is the real story or it could be something in between. If it's the latter and I force her to make a quick decision she may not like the pressure and it'll push her away and we'll have taken a huge step backwards.
So I think I'll put off the big talk and just state the the limbo is very hard to take so I'm not doing weeknights at the RH to relieve a bit of my stress to see if that helps.
Here's some mind reading and imaginary thoughts: W is still planning a life with OM but needs to keep me around to take care of things until the RH sells. Has moved into the house so she can tell the judge that I don't live at home anymore so she should get the matrimonial home. She just spent a week in Cancun with him and has a beautiful life with him planned.
Alternate version: W just touched base with OM in Jan to tell him she's doing well and working on our M. Moved into the house to get away from the stress of the RH (which I know first hand is real). Just spent a week in Cancun with her girlfriends and is looking forward to seeing me again.
I don't know which is the real story . . .
And people wonder why I'm so pro-intel . . .
How can one possibly make potentially life-altering decisions in such a vacuum of hard data?
But you're not supposed to snoop. Yeah, Starsky, I hear you.
It's a MYTH that MWD has a hard-and-fast rule against snooping. On p. 226 of Divorce Remedy, she even recommends a spouse using a keylogger on their spouse's computer if they suspect them of internet infidelity.
The basic rule is that you're not supposed to snoop and then KEEP ON snooping, as it only messes with your detachment and keeps you focused on your wayward spouse instead of on your own improvements. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it if it's used to:
- confirm compliance with a mutually-agreed upon no-contact agreement;
- confirm initially the presence of an affair;
- monitor any financial risk to the family;
- monitor any HEALTH risk to the betrayed spouse, if that spouse has chosen to continue to ML with a spouse who is either known to be, or suspected to be, in a PA;
- monitor any risk to the child(ren)
Those are just a few examples. But if one is truly at an "ultimatum" point such as you are (and I know that technically it's not a true ultimatum, you're not telling her "do this or else" you're only telling her what YOU will abide any longer), then I think it makes perfectly wise sense to know what you're up against . . . especially if she's lied to you (repeatedly) before.
Starsky
She's on her way home from the airport now. We spoke when she left the airport for about 10 minutes and she's chipper and talkative. She's planning a trip to Grenada with me and her daughter & fiancé. Wants us to get a beachfront room.
So maybe the call to OM was an innocuous call, hey how you doing I'm fine, working on my marriage, etc.
So when she gets home I'll let her do most of the talking to take the temperature. It's going to be enough that I'm sleeping at home again for 5 nights out of 7. I'll see how she deals with that. I'll explain that I cannot take the stress of not sleeping at home.
She'll say it's only been 2 months, she did it for a year. I could come back that I did it to help her with her burn out and to get a break from the home. She did it to betray me. But I won't go there. I'll just be loving: it must have been so hard on you, I can see what you went through...
The stressors at the home were feeling like a fish out of water. But also when one of our dear residents fell and broke her hip last Monday night while I was on duty was hard on me. A very stressful week of surgery and convalescence. She'll be away for a couple more weeks until she heals.
W asked how my week was and I said stressful. She immediately was concerned and asked why. I told her we'll talk about it when she gets home.
1. Buying another business & moving it into my office
2. Resident with broken hip
3. Cat got very sick but is now all better
4. Spotted the phone call to OM (I won't share that one though)
5. Moving back home and fearing her wrath (may not need to bring that one up either)
6. Snow storm and weather related stresses.
7. No knowing where she is, who she's with or when she's coming home.
I just need to listen, be the rock, not argue, quiet the little boy, and hold on to my NUTs.
Peter,
1. Buying another business & moving it into my office
2. Resident with broken hip
3. Cat got very sick but is now all better
4. Spotted the phone call to OM (I won't share that one though)
5. Moving back home and fearing her wrath (may not need to bring that one up either)
6. Snow storm and weather related stresses.
7. No knowing where she is, who she's with or when she's coming home.
Be sure to tell her some positives as well. Show her that you have some good, positive moments as well.
Positive moments:
1. Bought a business that'll improve our cash flow
2. Signed up a new resident
3. Cat is healthy again
4. Planning a trip to Grenada
5. Hired someone to do the weeknights at RH (may not be a + in her books though)
6. Prospect tour on Wed
7. Tradeshow for RH on Thursday may generate sales.
Moving back home and fearing her wrath
Seriously? You fear her wrath?
Yeah, Sandi, a lot of LBHs here are afraid of the paper Tigeress.
Yeah, Sandi, a lot of LBHs here are afraid of the paper Tigeress.
Methinks that has more than a little to do with why they became LBHs.
I too used to fear my wife. Thru my sitch, I learned to stand up to the blowback, and realize it was just that. As Elton John sang, "I'm still standing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. "
Well, that went well - NOT!
She told me about her week with a bunch of girls. Story seemed truthful - no inconsistencies. Then I told her about my week. At ten past nine she said I'm late for my night shift so I told her I made other arrangements to cover it. She blew a gasket.
Yes I fear her wrath - and wrath it was. I tried to tell her I can't take it any more. And that I can't take the limbo any more and she said what about her, how long did she live in limbo waiting for me. That one sort of took me by surprise. I told her I want nothing more than to have a happy marriage with her. But I can't take the limbo any more. She said she needs time. I said she can take her time but when she's ready to come back then I might be gone. She took that as a threat. I told her it was just me trying to survive.
She kept going on about me making decisions about her business without consulting her. That it is exactly that same behaviour that drove us apart - me thinking I know better than her. She feels disrespected, worthless and a failure and if she can't get out of that funk then suicide is an option. I repeated that I just want our marriage to be whole again. I told her I was sorry for all the things I did to break us apart, and she said she was sorry for the A.
We hugged and kissed and exchanged ILYs and she went to bed and I went to the couch.
She got up this morning in a foul mood. She didn't get to sleep until 4am and got up at 6am. I slept from midnight until 5am.
I told her our MC has an opening today if she wants it. She said I'm trying to control her. I just said that if she needed to talk to MC it was available. I wasn't telling her to go. She left for work at the RH with a cold goodbye and no kiss.
When she was venting I was trying to stand up against the blowback, but it's hard not to try to mitigate the fury by issuing placating statements, or giving justifications and reasons for my actions. I know. I should just STFU. But yeah, I'm still standing.
I told her this morning we've got to stop hurting each other. She only heard "I've gotta stop hurting you". She didn't understand that she is hurting me. I explained that her secret life is hurting me. She just said, see, you just trying to control me. WTF?
I feel like telling her, "Back in May I said no more R talk until the A is over and the OM is out of our lives completely. Then you came back and told me it was over and I believed you. But I will repeat it again. No more R talk until I know the A is over." She'll claim it's over. Then I'll say prove it. And she'll say I'm trying to control her. Round & round we go.
You see what I mean by when I say I'm done. I don't want it to be over, but I can't see a way back in.
Hey Peter
Sorry to hear about this. Hopefully the vets will come on and give you some advice. You could pop over to my thread and read what they have said to me over last couple of days as I have had similar experience this weekend with my wife. very emotional doesn't know what she wants, 1 minute saying she wants to reconcile and how do people do it and wants her rings back on wishes we had another child would only ever have one with me blah blah the next talking about me moving out and we'll all be ok and our D8 will deal with it ok. My head is all over the place and its impossible to detach while this is going on. I cant take it anymore. Are you still in same house together?
Advice I got was basically no R talks. Don't get drawn into them. She needs to make her own choices and see the consequences from her own actions.
Peter,
First of all, kudos to you for standing up to her. Much respect. I wish you would've slept in your own BED, but hey -- baby steps.
Unfortunately, with a spouse in a wayward mindset, they are filled with resentment and fueled with entitlement, and you do have to repeat yourself over and over until they back off, one topic at a time. And so you're going to need to address this "you're trying to CONTROL me!" thing, and get it behind you.
The next time she says that, say "Oh trust me, I have no desire to try and control you. You're a grown woman and you will do what you will. I'm only telling you what *I* will put up with, and that's all I can do. I thought it only fair to tell you." (or something similar).
You will probably have to get even more forceful than that, with a follow-up of something like "OK, I'll say this once more, and then I won't discuss it any further. I HAVE NO DESIRE TO CONTROL YOU. I CAN ONLY CONTROL ME. I'm trying to tell you that *I* have decided that I will sleep in my own house, in my own bed from now on. That works for me. *I* will be married to someone who is faithful to me, and committed to working on our relationship. *My* wife will treat me with respect, and be civil even when we disagree. *My* wife will be honest with me, even with it's a difficult subject. This is what I have finally woken up and decided I deserve going forward. Now, whether or not YOU CAN BE THAT WOMAN is COMPLETELY up to you, and I'll understand if you don't want to, I really will. I do expect you to let me know, however, and soon because I'm not waiting forever. Call that 'control' if you want to, but I've decided that this is what works best for me."
Say ALL of that with not an ounce of hate or disgust in your voice, almost like "Hey, if you like peanut butter cookies instead of chocolate chip, that's fine with me. I'm having the chocolate chip though."
I'll post some other thoughts to you about "control" and "boundaries" from my archives -- maybe they will help you.
Starsky
There used to be a poster here named Jayne, who one day summed up the concept of boundaries better and clearer than just about anything I've ever read, so I decided to save this in my archives. Obviously, change the gender as needed to fit your own sitch:
Jayne, on “boundaries”:
Think about boundaries like this:
Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.
Your WxH can do whatever he wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling him what to do.
But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.
He's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because he'll be outside your circle. He's free to go on and draw his own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.
He can do WHATEVER he wants. He's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices he wants.
BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.
That's all. Not about trying to control him at all. Tell him he's totally free. He has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever he wants.
If he's saying you have to let him into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HIM controlling YOU.
There was another wise poster here named Pearlharbr, who still pops in from time to time (especially if I shine my big "Puppy Light" up in the sky, lol), and if you can dig up her old threads they are GOLD. Although she wasn't (yet) married, she had a long-time boyfriend who was wayward, and Pearl did as masterful a job as anyone I've ever seen on here of executing the whole "THIS will be the type of man I have in my life going forward; whether or not YOU can be that man is completely up to you -- please let me know" thing.
Here's a letter she wrote him that is pitch-perfect:
Pearlharbr's letter to her exBF:
xBF,
During these past five months I have looked long and hard at myself and what I want for my life from this point forward. Here are some of the conclusions I have reached:
I want to be with someone who wants to continually strive to be a better person and have a better relationship. I want a man who can and does communicate with me. I want someone who is honest with me and himself.
I deserve to be with someone who will come to me and not turn to another woman when the going gets tough. I want someone who doesn't make excuses about inappropriate contact because there is no such contact at all. Ever.
I need someone who doesn't just say he is willing to do whatever it takes to earn my trust but who makes a plan and follows through with actions that will reassure me. I want a man who goes out of his way to make me feel safe. I want and deserve to be with someone who is willing to crawl through broken glass for me.
I realized that I want and need to be wooed. I want romance, I want fun, I want a man who is thoughtful. I want to feel like the man I am with wants me for me, not just as part of a comfortable life. I want to be with someone who recognizes all I have to offer and who wants to show me why he is the best man for me.
I need to be honest here--I am not sure that is who you are, or the type of man you are. I realized that I didn't feel those things from you or get those things with you before. I will not settle for anything less this time. If "we" can't have that in our relationship, then I am not interested in seeing where this goes because I know I will not be happy. When I love a man I am willing to give him my all, but I am not going to do it with ANY man who can't seem to give those things back. I now know that there are men out there who want to do those things for their women. I just am not sure that is who you are. I don't feel right now that I am willing to give much to you because of those reasons. This is nothing against you for being who you are and I know that you have things you need too, but I just wanted to be honest and not give any false hope here.
What do you think?
Pearl
Starsky - wow! Good advice. I'll need a full hazmat suit over my spew jacket.
I'm going to see my MC today at 6:30. I'll offer the slot to W again, or offer to go together, but if not I'll go myself.
. . . The reason I asked you that is because, as I've been posting to others recently, I do think it's very important to a betrayed spouse's own self-esteem for them to get their wayward spouse to at least deal with them from a basic position of honesty. The daily deceit can just EAT YOU UP inside, and it's no way to teach children, for example, how healthy families (even divorced, but successfully-co-parented ones) function. I think it's emotionally healthiest for you to get to a position where it's basically "Look, YOU know what you're doing, I know what you're doing, and YOU know that I know, and you also need to know that I'm CATEGORICALLY NOT OKAY WITH IT. I love you, and don't want to divorce, but you are an adult, and I can't control you. All I can tell you is the circumstances under which I'm willing to be married, and I cannot live in an open marriage, make no mistake."
Then, what they do with all that is up to them.
Puppy
My main concern with your approach is that I don't believe that most people can "hold out" for more than 6-12 months, and many can't hold out for more than 3-6. I am especially concerned about men, because it can be especially emasculating and humiliating for us, and many of them never recover fully.
For the record, my fast-track approach isn't "end it or else." That is an ultimatum, and it's controlling. I advocate that the betrayed spouse make it about THEM, and THEIR PERSONAL BOUNDARIES:
"I cannot live in an open marriage," (similar to Michelle's teachings about "I can no longer live in a sexless marriage") My approach with my wife was one of "I cannot control what you do; you are a grown adult woman, and you are free to make your own choices. All I can tell you is what I am willing to endure in my marriage, and this is a personal boundary with me. I love you, and I don't want a divorce, and I hope you'll end it very soon and come back and work on our marraige with me, at which point I think you will find me ready and willing to work on ANY AND ALL ISSUES. But please hurry, because my patience is not without its limits."
I do believe that DB teaches that a wayward spouse WILL be attracted back toward the marriage, when the betrayed spouse GALs and does some of the other techniques that MWD teaches. But MWD isn't anti-boundary, and she isn't pro-doormat or pro-cake-eating. And when a wayward spouse continues to get some of their emotional and physical needs met by their OM/OW, and some of their other physical, emotional and financial needs met by their spouse, with no boundaries and no consequences and no deadlines . . .
. . . then they have little, if any, reason to make a choice, in my experience.
Finally, I think there is an "added benefit" to this more aggressive approach, especially for men, in that it makes the betrayed husband more attractive to his wife. I believe that many of these women are WAITING for their husbands to fight for them, and for their marriages, and they lose respect for them every day that they don't (even as the wife pushes him away with her infidelity). Some formerly-wayward women have even come and posted as much on these very forums
Puppy
So W has stated boundaries that she needs to be involved in decisions about her business. I overstep those boundaries by hiring someone to replace me on the night shifts.
But I have boundaries that I won't be denied being in my own home and she overstepped that one.
I guess I could have waited until she got back from vacation and then discussed it, saying I have a solution to the night shifts and I want to move back home. She was most upset that I made the arrangements when she was away. Or maybe she's just saying that and really doesn't want me staking claim to the marital home.
And finally there's this, from a wise old poster named RobX. His approach is very different than mine, but IT WORKS, and I've highlighted the part about "controlling" here in case you just want to pull that part from it:
RobX’s approach:
Sit her down and have a discussion with her.
No need to be mad, angry, a$$hole, prick on anything,
keep it calm, light but straight forward, direct to the point, etc. Don't make it last more than a few minutes.
You tell her trust is based on actions that are consistent.
You don't trust her because she hasn't been consistent.
You don't trust her because she's been lying to you, in fact you tell her that is what you trust her to continue doing, because she has been lying to your consistently - that's what you can trust.
For you to be able to trust her, she has to build trust.
Sure you can trust her blindly and have faith and all that good stuff but honestly how well has that worked up to this point?
Don't ask for for full disclosure.
Do the opposite.
Tell her this:
"... I don't want your cell phone records, I don't want to look at your cell phone text msg's and call history, I don't want your email or fb password, I don't want your voicemail pw. If I have to monitor you 24/7 to force you to be consistent, that won't work for me because that's not what I want or need.
I wanted you to be trustworthy but I don't need you to be anything, truth be told, I'll be just fine without you, I see that now.
From now on I'm moving in this direction, if you want to come along, go ahead, I won't control you and tell you that can or can't come but I can't wait for you anymore and you already know that if you're with the OM, you aren't with me, I'm not settling for anything less than that.
If you really want to be with the OM, I really can't say or do anything to stop that and you should be with him if you're willing to lie so much to me, if you can't be true to me that means he's more important to you than I am and you know what... I'm ok with that because I'm more important to me and that's all that matters - I see that now.
If you wanted to be with me, you knew that you had alot of trust to rebuild and that's only through consistent action and I'm through with pressuring you to be my wife, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me and that's pretty much what it looks like to me so let's stop playing games: you go and be with the OM, I'm ok with that, in fact I'm better than OK, I'm awesome because I'm finally being honest with myself about all of this and that includes being honest about who you are and where you are right now. I know what I'm worth and I've been settling for less for too long.
I can't wait for you anymore, I've spent enough time waiting for you to do the right thing and I know that doesn't work because I would probably have to wait forever and still not get what I wanted. So you can do what you want, be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy and I'm going to start wanting something better for me."
No being mean, spiteful, vindictive, you let her go.
No more discussions, arguments, no more talks about lies, no more sneaking around behind your back, she can do what she wants but you are letting her go to do what she wants to do but at the same time, you are now allowing yourself to be free of this crappy limbo place you've been living in for so long.
Bro, if she wants to be with you, she'll be with you, no amount of a$$ kissing, sneaking, snooping, being mean, angry, standing tall, etc. is going to change that.
You be the best gosh darn example of a MAN for you and for you only. If she wants this great MAN that you are in her life, she'll pursue you and do what it takes to be a part of that.
You need to respect yourself first, that's the first step and letting go of your wife her untrustworthy ways to establish that your self-respect, dignity and integrity are the most important things in your life is what you NEED and WANT to do. You know what you're worth, go out and get what you're worth and let go of the things that are worthy of you - starting feeling your personal value, know it, resonate with it, live it. You are worth better than what she is giving you right now, if you don't set that boundary, you'll allow her to do this to you forever and who could respect that?
Otherwise continue playing this game and you'll be playing this chase & pursue game, pushing & pulling for the rest of your life.
Time to get off the merry go round, this ride isn't that fun anymore.
So W has stated boundaries that she needs to be involved in decisions about her business. I overstep those boundaries by hiring someone to replace me on the night shifts.
But I have boundaries that I won't be denied being in my own home and she overstepped that one.
I guess I could have waited until she got back from vacation and then discussed it, saying I have a solution to the night shifts and I want to move back home. She was most upset that I made the arrangements when she was away. Or maybe she's just saying that and really doesn't want me staking claim to the marital home.
It's most likely a "moving target" thing (where, if you fulfill her request, she'll only replace it with another request), but you should apologize and own it. "You're right, I should have consulted you on that. I will going forward."
One more, from a beautiful (inside and out!) poster named Greek, who sadly lost her beloved Coach to a heart attack a little over a year ago:
What Greek says Coach did to win her back:
I will tell you what Coach did to win me back - after I left our home and filed for D. He stopped doing all the other things that got me to the point of walking out of the door. He stopped trying to arrange my reactions. He stopped trying to control what I would think or do. He stopped telling me how I should feel. He stopped telling me what would happen if... He dropped the rope and said WITH HIS ACTIONS: "Greek, I can see that you are hell bent on leaving for reasons that you have made abundantly clear to me. Some of those reasons have merit and I will deal with them for my own sake. But I can't keep you here and I won't try. The action I will take is to work on areas in my life that have contributed to the difficulties in our R and other R in my life; I will begin to take care of myself in a way I have neglected for some time now (GAL); I will handle protect myself against the legal action you took against our M; I will conduct myself with strength and honor." This was and is totally attractive! It's strong. It's confident. It's respectful - both of me and of Coach.
It's not about 'doing nothing.' It's about doing what works - putting the ACTION in the right place.
Greek
It's most likely a "moving target" thing (where, if you fulfill her request, she'll only replace it with another request), but you should apologize and own it. "You're right, I should have consulted you on that. I will going forward."
Well this was one of the deal breakers for her a year and a half ago, that we would discuss something and make a decision and then when the time came I would change it. But the only incidents that I can recall of doing that involved details about a renovation where I changed the specs, one was a change based on not following the approved drawings and the other was that I didn't really listen to her opinion on a safety issue, but I corrected both. But at the time I was making these decisions she was already having an EA and even possibly a PA with OM, so I think it was overblown to justify her actions and now she harps on those issues saying I did it all the time.
I don't really want to go there and argue that it was only two times and ask her for other examples which I could probably explain away, but that's like pi$$ing in the wind. I won't get covered in pi$$ if I do a 180 and just turn away.
But she's using those past incidents to fuel her anger that my unilateral decision to hire staff to replace me at the RH just shows her that I haven't changed and I don't respect her.
You're probably right. But you still need to own it.
Well I don't know how you can reconcile when she is not willing to put things in the past and leave them there. Her resentment is a killer. She is not willing to forgive you of any mistakes in the past, and yet she continues to be untrustworthy. She tries to make
you out to be worse than she is.
I can see how she could think you ramrodded the night shift while she was gone. Yet, it's funny how you financially help run the RH and you do all the maintenance work there, plus stay for the night shift......but it is "her" business.
I think she uses the control issue as a distraction. It takes the light off her and puts it on you. Anytime a woman takes as many trips as she does.....without giving any details or information to her H......isn't what I see as being controlled by him. You called it right, she has a secret life. She is free to do whatever she wants, and that's exactly what she's done.
She is punishing you, Peter. When you told her you couldn't take the limbo any longer and she shot back about how long she waited for you? Yep, she is paying you back.
Peter, I've read all of your sitch, and I think you're doing admirable. I also think sandi is right in this one. You have put yourself out there to try and help her throughout all this time, and she throws it back at you. It sounds like you need put make sure your boundaries are firmly in place and continue focusing on you while she is spewing.
On a side note, and not intending to hijack, sandi or starsky, could one of you guys take a look at my thread? I've seen much wisdom from both of you throughout all the forums, and I'm struggling with the best way to act now that the A has been revealed.
I'll try and check it out, Squiggy.
I was telling someone about the phone call record I saw and he said, maybe the OM called her and she was just calling back to tell him not to ever call her again and leave her alone.
Giving her the benefit of the doubt.
I could actually picture that is she's not wanting him in her life either. Sometimes left-behind affair partners could be also pursuers.
Don't be naive, Peter. Her demeanor towards you doesn't jibe with your altruistic scenario, sorry.
What has she done to deserve "the benefit of the doubt?"
I hear you Starsky. I know it's a naïve angle, but without intel I don't know anything.
All I know is that she's really mad at me. We spent the evening together last night. I didn't start any R talk so we mostly sat in silence - she was watching TV and doing her nails. I was reading and petting the cat. She did bring up how angry she was at me. I said I only want to have a deep loving marriage. That was it for R talk. But no hug or kiss good night - just a "sleep tight". No hug or kiss good morning. I did sleep very well though. I'm sleeping a lot better at home, even on the couch. Big relief in that sense.
I did go to my MC yesterday evening who commended me for standing up to her. MC said because W has a history of childhood sexual assaults it may take years for her to heal if ever. I think a lot of her angry and resentment are displaced from that, as well as her projecting her own anger at herself onto me. I'm just the closest available target. I won't take it personally. It's not about me, so it seems. Even if it is about me I have a Teflon suit under my spew jacket and a level 4 hazmat suit over top. Layering seems to be my fashion choice nowadays.
I suggested we go on that trip to Grenada and then see how we feel. But I didn't bring up my ongoing intolerance to my state of limbo last night. I figured I'll let her cool down a bit. Let her process the other night a bit more.
So you tell her you're not willing to live in limbo anymore, she comes back from yet another trip that she's totally mysterious about, tells you nothing about it, treats you like cr*p, and you decide to take her on a nice trip to Grenada.
Peter, I think your words say one thing to her, but your actions have always said quite another. Reminds me of that whole "definition of insanity" thing.
Good luck.
Starsky
I'm just trying to leave no stone unturned here. So this is what I intend to say:
W, I would like to share with you my thoughts and I ask that you just listen to what I have to say without interrupting and I'll let you know when I'm finished.
First of all, I'd like to say that I know I'm a good man who loves and is dedicated to his beautiful wife. I would like nothing more than to have a strong, deeply loving and happy marriage with you and that I am totally willing to commit to a reconciliation process that will involve reconnecting with each other and rebuilding trust. We've both had our shares of stressors which are at times untenable.
So I would like to suggest that we take that trip to Grenada to get away from the external stressors and spend a week with each other, enjoying the sun and the sand between our toes, having some laughs and good times.
Then when we return we will be in a better place to re-evaluate our situation.
No "ultimatum", no pressure. Just an invitation to have one last go at it.
Starsky, she did tell me all the details of her trip, described many of the girls she was with - it was basically a retreat of about a dozen women who are going through rough times in their lives and there was much yoga and mediation, early nights and healthy food. No drunken parties or chasing after men. It all seemed very genuine when she was telling me and I usually know when my W is lying to me.
She did cook me a delicious lunch today and is being kind although distant - said last night that she's still upset over what I did - hiring without consulting - do I understand her anger.
Yes, I know I'm insane. And this insanity WILL stop. I need to leave no stone unturned though. But thanks for the 2x4. I do need it.
Peter,
IDK about those comments as it seems like it comes across as pressure. Yeah, you want reconciliation...the problem is that does W want that as well along with the benefits of a M?
That is why I suggested that you read the books I recommended to gain some further clarity on your needs.
My issue here is that I've seen you do this in many different ways and W brings up a host of issues that she holds onto resentments about in your face...some are even 10 years in the past!
I mean...what you've been doing isn't working very well.
That is why I suggested that you step back and really contemplate on what you really need from W before you have the talk with W. Because once you state your needs, you're going have to really back it up and not go Wet Noodle.
Let's face it: you're one hairline away from losing your credibility with your W with those "talks".
Wonka I'm waiting for the books to arrive. I don't think I have any credibility with my W anyway. She has lost all respect for me. And coupled with the anger and resentment I'm ready to throw in the towel. But I just want to give it one more shot. The talk the other night got too bogged down in the moving home problem that any talk of my unacceptable state of limbo took a backseat and wasn't really heard, except for her to say that she lived in limbo for years, which is not really the same thing as I was not denying her love, physical closeness or emotional support. Sure I may have not met all her needs but I'm not a drunk, a wife-beater or a cheater - I just got busy as happens in marriages.
Hi Peter, I think it's best not to focus on a particular aim like 'renewing vows' or 'going to Grenada.' I think it you are ready to be done and you want to ask a final time, go for it. But from your posts, I'm questioning whether you are ready to be done. You don't really sound like you are.
W, I would like to share with you my thoughts and I ask that you just listen to what I have to say without interrupting and I'll let you know when I'm finished.
First of all, I'd like to say that I know I'm a good man who loves and is dedicated to his beautiful wife. I would like nothing more than to have a strong, deeply loving and happy marriage with you and that I am totally willing to commit to a reconciliation process that will involve reconnecting with each other and rebuilding trust. We've both had our shares of stressors which are at times untenable.
So I would like to suggest that we take that trip to Grenada to get away from the external stressors and spend a week with each other, enjoying the sun and the sand between our toes, having some laughs and good times.
Then when we return we will be in a better place to re-evaluate our situation.
Haven't you tried this once already? I think it was a different time and place, but it sounds very familiar. And those words you used? You've said it
all before. Peter, she KNOWS how you feel. That's part of the problem.
You keep saying you don't want to leave any stone unturned. How long have you been saying that? It is an excuse to linger on.
If you want to continue as things are, that is your business. I hate to see you believe her lies and your own excuses for her, but that is up to you. And now her C is saying it make take years before she is able to come around. If ever? So are you ready to live in these conditions for the rest of your life, b/c frankly, I have seen no difference in how you describe her now than when you first posted. You "settled". You've catered to her and pursued her. You continue to reassure her of your love. You've treated her like a princess. She wipes her feet on you and disrespects you....and you keep putting up with it.
Just how did you stand up to her the other night? By telling her you can't take it any more? Then you tuck your tail and go sleep on the couch. That is not what I see as standing up to her. Maybe you told your C more than you told us.
I think you are wasting precious years of your life. You deserve better. If you are as good a man as you say you are......then you deserve a good wife!!
Yeah Toots, I don't know. I'm torn. The thing I want the most is to happily married to W but that's not really working out too well at this point. I know she has issues from childhood sexual abuse and that's really poisoning everything. But she's a grown woman and has made choices that she may not be happy about. I'm definitely not happy about those choices.
I do want to reconcile but she's still far away from even going there. And yes, I can't take this limbo much longer.
Wonka, I started reading Nonviolent Communication: observe, feel, needs, request.
I see you're still in touch with OM. That makes me feel hurt and betrayed. I need my wife to be faithful and true. I ask that you never contact him gain.
Don't know how well that'll go over. But I'm just being facetious. I'll finish reading the book before I start trying to use the wisdom in it.