I decided to start a new thread in this section to perhaps get a different set of eyes on my story, and it probably belongs in this section anyways.
For those new to my story, here is a brief synopsis of my situation:
2006 - 2011: I was addicted to escort services. I cheated on my W for 5 years, using family money to finance my infidelity, losing jobs, losing friends, and losing my integrity.
2011 - 2014: My W carried the pain of my past indiscretions, and lost a sense of trust and security in me. I was oblivious to the level of pain I caused.
May 1st - W engaged in EA then PA with her manager at work, who is also married with two kids.
June 25th - W drops bomb on me. Tells me she has decided to leave me, and also reveals OM. Identity of OM is revealed a week later.
July - Confusion, pain, begging & pleading, trying to make my case to keep the family intact. Lots of conversations (too much, actually) about the R, the A, and the OM. Went back & forth between telling my W that I am letting her go, and telling her that I want her back.
August - Made a committment to follow DB methods 100%, and to become a man only a fool would leave. Struggled a lot with setting boundaries.
September - Difficult month with birthdays and anniversary. More tears. More pursuit. More contacts with OMW which eroded more trust my W had in me. OM leaves to start new job 2000 miles away.
October - New jobs for both my W and I. An awakening, and a change of scenery in my life. More time spent GAL. Less pressure put on W. Day-to-day interactions more pleasant.
November - My W has become more distant. Feels anxious around me. We went on a family vacation and had a huge argument. Big setback. She feels I am not giving her enough space, and reiterated her intention to file, as well as her love for the OM. She indicated that she wants to move out and live with her parents. Does not want to spend the holidays with me, at all.
Children (7 and 3) have been shielded from the situation and are unaware of what's going on (so we think). We still live under the same roof, share finances. Everything else is the same.
Over the months, I've become more involved as a parent and as a domestic partner. I've also taken my career more seriously and I actually see a bright future for myself. I've treated my W and her parents with more respect and thoughtfulness. Despite the situation, I'm in a much better state -- mentally, physically, and spiritually.
Links to my previous threads:
Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 Part 5 Part 6
Mindsin,
This is a tough one.
What happened from 2011 - 2014? Did you give up your indiscretions?
I don't know how one can really build trust after all that. My best guess is be a great guy, strong, truthful, joyful. She may or may not care to notice.
For the sake of your children, if you do get divorced, try and remain with in the house and try to get joint custody with a provision that neither of you can move more than a set distance from the other without the other's permission.
Best of luck.
Yes. I gave up that lifestyle. At first, it was simply sheer willpower and the threat of my wife leaving me. Then in 2012, I had a major health scare, and that changed my life.
Thanks for posting.
And despite all of that, she still desires a good relationship with me and wants to remain good friends. She reiterated this to me just 3 days ago.
Hi mindsin,
Did you ever did any MC after you gave up your addiction? Some people hold on to resentment and grudge.
Did your W ever had a chance to express herself openly about how did she manage to stay with you during that owe full time?
And, do you have any idea of what your W is looking for in this OM, what he is giving her that she is willing to end her M and knows that she is damaging someone else's M?
Did you set up some goals you think you can accomplish at least before she files for D?
I know it hurts, I am hurting too... but until you decide it's done, you can always have hope.
Good Luck to you!!!
Pink17 - here are my answers to your questions.
We did one or two sessions of MC back in 2009 after one of the times I got caught. At the time, I tried to make a commitment to stop my behavior, but it was short-lived. I also didn't take MC (or our marriage in general) as seriously as I should have (and certainly not as seriously as I do now that it seems too late. She most definitely is holding onto resentment. The healing never took place.
Yes, she did express to me. She questioned herself a lot. She didn't want to be a failure, and it killed her inside because she is so successful in everything else she does. She also said that despite the fact that I hurt her, she did everything she could to protect me and make excuses for me. This is why she never ever shared her story or pain with any of her friends or family (until now).
She has told me on numerous occasions that the OM has nothing to do with her decision to leave. Of course, it's hard for me to believe it since her decision coincided with the start of her affair. I know the OM is more successful, but she has told me that his success is irrelevant. Maybe he's better looking. I don't know. Maybe he touches her emotionally in a way that I can't or never have. I don't know him, and I never met him, so I know little about him (other than what my W has told me). I think one thing that I'm pretty sure of is that he "gets" her, and understands her. My W has indicated to me (even recently) that I don't really know or understand her. She has absolutely no remorse about what she's doing to the OMW and their children. She acknowledges the harm being done, but there is no remorse.
My main goal before she files for D is to be as detached as possible and mentally prepared for her decision. I've thought long and hard, and I think the thing that pains me the most is the thought of my children growing up in a broken family. I am also very sentimental, and I am saddened when I think of the house that we built, the memories we've shared, etc., and the idea that all of it will be flushed down the toilet.
Thanks.
Spending Thanksgiving with my side of the family and the kids. We had a great day. They had fun playing with their aunt, uncle, & cousin.
My W decided to stay home and have a quiet dinner with her parents. She sent me a couple texts throughout the day just asking where the kids are, and another one saying she just watched Hunger Games and thought it was great.
Mindsin....
Your regrets pain me. Sorry buddy.
(((( )))))
I think these last couple of days were the first where I felt like I really didn't want to be anywhere near her. I could have come back home today, but I'm much happier here at my parents house instead, surrounded by people who love me. I don't want the stress of being around my W. I'm actually looking forward to her moving out.
Had another talk with the W again. I made it clear to her that I didn't want to get involved in this type of conversation. She said she had things she wanted to say. I told her I would listen.
The one point she wanted to make was that she doesn't feel like she is the right woman for me -- that she never really was, but didn't have the courage to face reality. She was "going through the motions". We both were. She said that she truly hopes that I find someone who can make me happy, that I deserve better. She said she was sorry that she never treated me the way a husband should be treated, and she broke down in tears. I replied, "I didn't exactly make it easy on you". We both cried, and shared a hug.
While we embraced, she said to me, "We'll get through this tough time together, my old friend."
I'm still processing all of this, and I'm not sure what I'm feeling at this point. It almost feels like a weight has been lifted. We both addressed the feelings of anxiety around each other over the last few months. After our talk, we went out with the kids to have a nice dinner, and to walk around the shops. It was a relaxing time, and I didn't feel any anxiety. I just let go. I think she did too, as she was noticeably different around me (in a good way).
She still intends to file for divorce (as she reiterated), but somehow I was at peace when she said that. I think more and more that she's truly and genuinely moved on, and it goes WAY beyond her affair fog. I suppose only time will tell.
The A is over (I think)
W told me that he broke up with her, and in the end, she respected his decision. He wanted his family life back.
She cried really hard and it was difficult for me to find any sympathy. It was hurtful to know she was crying over another man.
She did reiterate that she still intends to file for D. She says she feels she needs to turn a chapter in her life, and the official end of our marriage will do that for her.
She also said that despite everything, she still feels like she wants to trust me, and chose to tell me first before any of her friends. I said that I will always be here to listen.
I also told her that one thing I can promise her is that I will never beg for her to come back to me. I told her that I am moving on with my life too, with or without her as my W.
Right now, she is downstairs, crying and sobbing. As much as I want to comfort her, I know that I should simply leave her alone and let her grieve on her own terms.
I'd appreciate any advice on how to handle my situation given this new development. My gut tells me I need to simply back off (more than ever).
Yes, back off. Sadly I had to go through the same thing. OW kicked my H out and he spent a good 3 months on my couch texting/sending you tube links/etc about how much he loves/misses her and how lonely he is without her.
Fast forward 2 months and he says he has no feelings for her anymore.
Thanks twinmom. I can't say that I'm confident in doing so (backing off). Something tells me that she's crying out for my emotional support.
I wanted to send her a message this morning, just asking if she's OK. I am hesitant in reaching out to her though.
I think I need to consult with my DB coach on this one.
....
Your regrets pain me. Sorry buddy.
(((( )))))
25yearsmlc, you've followed my story since the beginning. If you are following my thread, I could really use some words of advice from you right about now.
Leave her alone. Don't bring up the OM and give her space. This is actually a great sign. How else have your interactions been?
Our interactions have been very good since we had our heart-to-heart talk Saturday night. I feel less anxiety around her and it has allowed me to open up. I sense the same with her.
How do I respond to this???
W sent me an e-mail this morning:
Firstly, I want to thank you for listening to me on Sunday.
I've always said that I find it difficult to forgive you for your infidelities, but I can't imagine what [OMW] goes through seeing how determined [OM] was when he wanted to leave her. As I sat there on Sunday crying over my breakup, I know it was probably killing you to see me breaking down over another man. Thank you for being a good friend, standing by and listening to me. It means a lot actually.
Now that I've gathered my thoughts and emotions. I am ready to move on to the next step with our marriage.
I have always made it very clear my intentions. I know over and over, you keep saying, you will believe me once [OM] is out of the picture. I hope you now see my decision with us is not a result of meeting [OM]. Our marriage should have been dissolved long time ago, perhaps, never should have started. I want both of us to have the opportunity to have a new beginning, and find happiness again. If your happiness is to stay alone, continuously refining yourself, and focusing on the kids, that's great. For me, it is about focusing on the kids, my career, and rediscovering myself. There are a lot of things I want to try, but always felt I was prohibited to. I haven't thought everything through, I am taking it one day at a time, and one task at a time.
Despite all the disappointments, failure, anger I have towards our marriage, I have always loved our friendship. That was the basis to our beginning, and I hope for that reason, it is the basis how we will conclude our marriage. All the times where you were "absent" in our marriage, I am asking your help, pleading with you actually, to please work with me to make this as amicable as possible.
I have reviewed the divorce guidelines over the weekend when you were away. There are a lot of forms to fill out, timeline guidelines, etc. I think it would be good for us to sit down and go through it together. Since I am filing, you will be served by a State Marshall. Let's figure out how we can avoid this at your workplace.
If we can spend quality time to calmly talk over the procedures before starting the filing, that would be ideal. There is a lot we need to go through and agree on the outcome.
Lastly, despite of everything that's happened, I will always be grateful to you as the father to our two wonderful kids. They are very lucky to have a father like you. Thank you!
I'm so sorry to read this. I'll let the veterans give advice. I just want to offer you moral support.
Hey Mindsin, I'm glad to hear the A is over but sorry to hear your W still focused on D. I'm not a vet but felt like I could weight in on this one because I've been doing this very same thing for the past couple months and at least think I've learned a couple things. I would not ignore that email. My response I think would be to ask when would be a good time and attend if convenient. I also have some thoughts below based on my experience with this.
First in my mind is, it doesn't help to refuse cooperation. Your W wants to press D and while you don't have to be the one to come up with a time to meet or help too much to move things a long, it doesn't help in my opinion to obviously drag your feet. Your W might feel you are trying to control her and it causes resentment. If you aren't available at certain times then don't go out of your way, but work it out like you would any business transaction or buying a house.
Second, keep your needs in mind at all times. In my weaker moments of the last year I've capitulated to things at times that I didn't want later and living with or taking back something you agreed to but didn't want will just irritate you regularly. Protect yourself in this at all times because its very hard to change what goes into the paperwork after its done.
Third, be calm during any discussions about D and try not to get drawn into R talk. My W has been very emotional the last month talking terms around S and visitation. She has said the most out of nowhere kind of things that caused me to jump into R talk which usually just gives her a reason to defend again. Its hard if not impossible to remain detached during these conversations but the more you can the stronger you will seem and more respected you will feel.
Just my 2 cents here. I hope its of some help. If she continues on the path you can't avoid D, but you can protect yourself in the outcome.
no advice, but a practical point...
In most states, you can "accept service" of the D papers. That is, you (and your L) can tell your W (and her L) that you will "accept service" rather than being served by a sheriff/marshal. She saves the cost of paying for the marshal, and it's a little more civilized. She can hand you or mail you the papers, and you return a notarized form saying you received them, all of which gets filed with the court.
Ok, so here is the latest:
Shortly after that e-mail, she called me and asked for my feedback. I basically told her that my stance has not changed -- that I do not want a D. I reiterated that D is a decision not to be taken lightly, and certainly not while emotions are still running high. I also stated that her decision to file is not only a decision on me, but a decision on our children, and I feel it's a decision that is not in their best interests. It is also a decision on our children that is being made without my consent, as a parent.
I then went on to say that her breakup is still fresh, and that it can take a couple of months to heal from the end of an A. Making a life-changing decision such as D is something that should be done when minds are calm.
I told her that I had a 6-month plan in mind. I proposed that she take a couple of months to reflect and heal. After that period, we will have another conversation. I said that if we are to D, then I want to spend the next 4 months to make sure every stone was left unturned in trying to see if our marriage can work going forward. I hinted that there are programs we can go through to help us in this process (Internally, I was referring to Retrouvaille). When I said that, she instantly retreated and said that no matter what happens after she heals, she still intends to file.
In the end, she agreed to put the D filing on hold until the healing period.
We ended the conversation there.
Later, she sent me a follow-up e-mail, thanking me for having the open and honest conversation. She also said that she wants to be upfront and that if at the end of February, she doesn't want to proceed with any programs to improve our marriage, then I need to respect that. Then we can sit down and discuss next steps on the D.
She obviously still has D on her mind, but I think through her words, she may have revealed that she is leaving the door at least slightly open at the possibility of trying to reconcile at the end of her healing period (end of February).
I just bought myself 2+ more months.
Well, I think you did about the best as you could under the circumstances.
To me, she sounds resolute. She sounds thoughtful. Not reactive. Seems as if her commitment to the marriage was a lot more shaken by your infidelities than either of you realized. The OM helped crystallize that within, and she is ready to begin her own journey.
OR so she believes, and so I might be wrong. I do think getting some time to cool things off was pretty darn smart of you. I concede right now that she may proceed on her journey and then turn your way...
So be ready for that. It's at least a strong possibility.
Now, stop taking the temperature of the R, b/c Nothing cools things more than taking the temperature of it often.
You should still be the dad you are, and upbeat, pleasant company to be around. You may still suggest Retrovaille, or some other weekend retreat.
You yourself might try Essential Experience, which is a workshop I believe I mentioned to you before. (Also known as "EE"--very profound.)
That's for individuals (but that always impacts us as parents in a family and as partners in a marriage) and I pray you go asap, b/c that will show her YOUR path and YOUR CHANGES will be the most visible they'll ever be...plus it's all about YOU when you go.
(After I went to EE, to my surprise my h also went to it, by himself, all because he saw such serious changes in ME. That led to us going together later on, helping new participants and it was VERY VERY bonding.) In any event, the growth and changes you have claimed to want to make, and in some cases which you have started to implement, MUST CONTINUE. Not just b/c she might look your way and if you have backslid, that'll confirm her worst fears about you and she'll stay gone for good. But b/c you say you want to become a better man, and I believe you.
I happen to think EE would greatly assist you in making those changes happen faster and be more lasting. Perhaps even more importantly, you'll be better off, more content, more at peace, regardless of her choice b/c EE will help you create more happiness in your own life. I'm 100% certain that Your next r, with her or not, will be much healthier.
Okay so, I do have a suggestion for you right now. An exercise of sorts...bear with me, please.
Please try this exercise for maybe 8 minutes or so, okay? Just 8 minutes....
Spend 2-3 minutes on imagining that your wife is GONE from your life. Sad, right? I know.
But imagine that for whatever reason she's gone, imagine that you have processed the loss of her enough to be at peace now.
Maybe she passed away. Or maybe she went to Austrailia and got lost in the outback, or committed some weird crime and has been sentenced to life. Maybe you simply and genuinely just do not care about her at all. (That one is hardest to believe, btw, so do what works for the exercise okay?)
Point is, IMAGINE she is not in your life anymore and that ENOUGH TIME HAS PASSED so that Your grief and adjustment period, has also passed....
And you are not craving her company and you have accepted the loss of her in your life, whatever that takes or means, imagine that it has happened, so that
although she's gone, You are HAPPY in your new life....Yes, imagine you are doing alright now...
What specifically, are you doing in this new, happy life?
Did you move? Get a better/smaller/bigger home? Did you Switch jobs? Go back to school? Just taking some fun classes? Are you going to travel more?
Did you Take up a hobby? Like what? Did you decide to coach a team or JOIN anything?
Perhaps you are dating again, maybe you are in a meaningful relationship with someone with some promise.
(No, NOT "escorts", but an adult relationship...and if that is not in your dreams, then that's an issue to deal with in IC. Agreed?)
BACK TO THE EXERCISE.....Flesh out details of your new, happy life....really spell a few things out.
Breathe in this new content life. HOW do you feel in a life without your wife, but with you happy in it? Kind of weird, but freeing, perhaps?
...After 3-4 minutes of this^^^, postpone or separate the part about OWs from your plan for now, and
ask yourself which of the other^^ things you are doing in your new Happy life, you can do, now?
And now, Go create that.
Got it?
Thanks. I will try that exercise when I'm alone tonight.
Since the last time I posted, she sent me another e-mail saying that she would like it if I moved out of the house. She wants to live in the house w/out my presence. She says I give her stress and anxiety.
I responded by saying that I will not move out of our family home. I said I will help her in any way to alleviate any stress or anxiety in our cohabiting environment, but that stops short of me moving out.
Good answer.
Not leaving the marital home (or the marital bed) is one of those near-100%-consensus things around here.
Starsky
Good answer.
Not leaving the marital home (or the marital bed) is one of those near-100%-consensus things around here.
Starsky
Agreed.
Is there some unusual ownership dimension we're missing? I mean, does HER family own this place?
(I only ask b/c there was another situation around here where someone had said early on, that the in-laws owned the family home, but it was forgotten - so the advice was a bit off.) Assuming not, I'd say your response was a darn good one.
Remember some of the things YOU said before (e.g., you "never loved" her, etc.) And it wasn't true. You were sort of
"Trying on" an opinion. I mention this so that when you hear painful things-
Please realize 1) they may not be true, at all, AND OR
2) they may not be true for very long,
Nothing is written in stone. Stay the course. GOOD LUCK!
25yearsmlc - I tried that exercise last night, and you know what? Much of what I imagined in my new happy life is going on in my present life. I have a new job. I've made new friends. I've improved relationships with current friends. I've become closer to my only brother. I'm pursuing music again (what I loved before I met my wife). In fact, I have my 1st rehearsal next week with a band that I just joined. I haven't played in a band in 20+ years.
Some of the things in my imaginary happy life that's not going on right now would include:
- Spending more time with friends.
- Traveling more, even if it's just weekend trips.
My parental responsibilities (especially with kids my age) make the above two things difficult.
The only thing that is missing, and where I feel incomplete, is the presence and love of another woman. It was difficult (near impossible) to imagine a happy life without someone by my side. It's as if that void is so large, that the true enjoyment and fulfillment of everything else in my life depends on that one void being filled. I hope that makes sense.
Is there some unusual ownership dimension we're missing? I mean, does HER family own this place?
We own our own home.
Btw, is there anything I should do at this point to reinforce the negativity of divorce? For example, should I send articles to her regarding the effects on children, etc.?
I'm thinking that her love for her children is the key to this, and if she can "wake up" and see the damage that will be done, then further progress can be made.
Btw, is there anything I should do at this point to reinforce the negativity of divorce? For example, should I send articles to her regarding the effects on children, etc.?
It would just come across as more controlling pressure.
She won't read them. If she does she won't believe them. She likely has friends who have told her "how resilient" kids are. Or, as my W figures, "what would I be showing the kids by staying in a bad M" - they think that D'ing and starting over is easier than addressing problems with self and with M. In fact, they may not even recognize that they have inner problems to address.
Now I have left a printed copy of MWD's article on "Forgiveness" and letting go of resentment, etc. on the corner of my desk in my office. Why? Because repeatedly, sentence after sentence, it describes my wife so accurately that if she read it, it
might resonate, and in my mind, it is the single area most holding my W back from making any progress. So it sits there. If she snoops, she may read it; if she does, I'll know.
But
asking her to read it would be like pouring gasoline on a fire. Unfortunately, she may have to experience the negativity to see it.
-zew
Another thing -- she's been wanting to spend more and more time with the children (without my presence). She says she and the kids have a great time, just the 3 of them.
That's what she says. Reality 'may' be different.
Is this her way of mentally preparing for life as a divorced mom, to prove to herself that everything will be OK? Should I encourage, discourage, or simply back off altogether? Some of these future plans involve taking the kids for days at a time. I don't feel comfortable with that. I don't want to be days without my children, if it's unnecessary.
She wants to take the kids on vacation over a 4 day stretch at the end of the year. Originally, I had stated practicality reasons why taking two young children with her would not allow her to relax (which was her main goal). I also hinted to her that one of the reasons I didn't like the idea was that I did not want to spend New Year's by myself (and away from my family). That was likely a mistake.
In the end, I agreed with my W, in her request to take the kids on a mini vacation at the end of the month by herself. She was excited.
On another topic -- I left the door open to have further conversations on our current living situation, and how we can make improvements to reduce stress and anxiety around each other. She has not approached me with this conversation yet.
Also, yesterday we had a conversation over text regarding being open and honest with each other. I told her that one of the things that need to happen is that we need to be accountable for each other's whereabouts. She said she wanted to go away this weekend, but didn't tell me where or with whom. She responded by saying that I haven't been open with her in the past when I was out those nights (ballroom dance classes). I told her that things are different now. With the affair behind us, I feel like I can trust her again, and I want nothing but honesty between us. The conversation was interrupted and I said that perhaps we could pick it up later tonight when we're home. That didn't happen.
Made a big mistake and got myself into relationship talks over e-mail. These were conversations that we started to have in the last day or two but never finished. I first suggested that we discuss two topics.
1.) What things we can do to reduce/eliminate feelings of tension/anxiety around the house. Write down a list of things that are bothering you (be honest with your feelings). I'll do the same. Then we can come up with ways to make things better.
2.) What factors are present that prevent us from being more open and honest with each other.
What a mistake that was.
Her response:
I want to be perfectly clear on the intentions to having this type of conversations. For me it is NOT to reconcile or on the path of reconciling our marriage. It is purely to be very tactical about issues in front of us we need to address to make the living arrangement more tolerable. As I've told you earlier this week, I will give myself two months to in your words to "heal". And at the end of the time when i file for divorce I will not go through a reconciliation period to turn over our marriage. My stance was always the same. Our marriage should have ended long time ago, perhaps the first time in 2006, regardless, it was never pending on my relationship with [OM]. I hope you can see that now. I am not interested in continuing this marriage or rebuild a new one with you. Taking time over the next two months is purely for me. I want to be crystal clear so there is no chance of you misunderstanding me.
And I hope, in our effort to become better communicators with each other, you don't take this directness in a hostile way.
My response to that was basically to reiterate my stance (that I don't want D, and that I want to leave no stone unturned in keeping this family together). I asked her to simply keep an open mind, which was another mistake (asking for reassurances).
All she did was put up a defensive wall and further solidified her position and said things like:
"I don't want to be your W. That decision will never change"
"Staying married to you is NOT an option. I want to make that very clear with you and my stance will not change. Now or down the road. At some point, as someone as intelligent as you are, you need to accept this."
"I will do whatever it takes to ensure the kids are happy. Happy does not mean living under a roof with two parents married on paper, but one of them is not happily married."
Damage done. Now time to just keep my mouth shut for a while. She is going away by herself to a spa retreat this weekend.
I would say it is time for the "Last Resort Technique"
Michelle says in DR under LRT...
Michelle says...
It is imperative that you begin doing the last-resort technique immediately if:
* Your spouse has said to you in no uncertain terms that she wants to get a divorce and it appears as if she really means it. It wasn't just said in the heat of battle.
Well, there you have it.
This is why we are always told over and over again not to talk about R. And to STFU. And that you can't talk your way out of this situation. Because the response is so, so predictable. And yet, many of us do just this. Now you know. I don't think you'll do it again.
But mindsin, don't tie yourself up in knots over this. She told you how she feels today, and you already knew that, so really, nothing has changed, has it. She may or may not change her mind over time, and you bought yourself a few more months a few days ago.
So your best voice, from now on, is your action -- no more words! Your best shot is to assume that what she says is true, and to start running your life as if it will be so, while always leaving the door open for her to change her mind.
-Zew
Thanks for the words of support zew. You're absolutely right, nothing has changed. She wanted to take immediate action towards D just a few days ago, and now that's changed.
I don't want to be the cause of tension around the house, so if she wants to be open about how we reduce that tension, I'm willing to listen. But I'm done initiating any of these conversations. At least that's what I'm going to try.
As long as you aren't actively provoking her, you aren't the cause of tension around the house. Tension is something we put on ourselves.
For months, I felt like I was walking on eggshells around the house. W and I even discussed it one day and she said she felt the same way. Eventually, I decided not to walk on eggshells anymore. I can only be me, and that's not the worst thing to be. (Popeye: I am what I am, u gug gug gug.) Once I remembered that and stopped worrying about how W would react to my every word or move, my tension went away.
A WAW's tension is of her own making. Don't go out of your way to add to it, but don't try to fix it, either.
Last night, my W wanted to talk to me. She says she feels trapped in this house, trapped with me as her husband, trapped in this life that she doesn't want. She broke down and cried hard. Pleaded with me. Said if there is one gift that I can give her, after all the pain I put her through, is to simply set her free.
She reiterated that she doesn't want to be my W, now or ever. She will never want to kiss me again. She doesn't want to hug me. She is disgusted at the thought of me even touching her. She then revealed to me that for years, she's been embarrassed of me in public -- that I have poor social skills. She felt she could never look at me proudly and say "That's MY husband". She looked at me in ridicule for years, but never came face to face with it because she had feelings for me. She loved me. All of these things she said last night.
I wish it ended there. The conversation turned towards my past infidelities. She asked me if I had intercourse with any of the women I spent time with. She had thought I didn't this whole time, because I've lied to her. But now, I wanted to be nothing but honest with her so I came clean. I told her that I did.
She cursed me for making her defend me in front of her friends whom she confided in, as well as defending me in front of the OM (believe it or not). She told the OM that she felt bad that they were having sex because I never crossed that line. Little did she know at the time, that I crossed that line many times. Everyone told her she's a fool if she believes I didn't have sex with them.
I felt the rage inside of her. She said some really nasty things to me, which I felt were understandable.
"Sex with [OM] was far better than anything I experienced with you."
"I wish the children were never born."
She concluded with, "I'm filing this month."
I think my situation is at the point of no return. I just don't see how (even in the most optimistic of scenarios) that she could come back to me.
I commend you for confessing your past infidelities and the extent they went physical. If anything, you are in a better position today to actual recover your marriage than you were before when you were still lying to her.
Sure she has every rationalization and justification to divorce you now. Your previous cheating (and cover up) gives her near complete grounds to overwrite all her wrongs.
However, the fear that coming back to the marriage meant you being able to forever punish her and be the victim of her adulterous abuse has left the building.
Don't sweat all that other stuff. Plenty of marriages have come back from the I never loved you, you gross me out and embarrass me and OM is better in bed than you stuff way wards always spew in defense of their abusive choices.
The road to recovery is through conflict. At least she's engaged and still fighting and talking to you. It's still a relationship and "relationships" can be rebuilt. If anything your prior experience as a lying cheater gives you the ability to actually emphasize with what she is experiencing. Like you....she felt entitled to do what she did and did it out of selfishness. Now that she knows you cheated first...she feels double entitled to do what she did to you.
You were both still wrong...but you can still recover from that.
I know you think and feel this is rock bottom and it is. But hope is a powerful thing and if YOU can change your mindset and own what you did in as best a way as possible and not as some crocodile tears manipulative method to get her back...maybe you can lead the way to BOTH TOGETHER becoming better persons and an example to other married struggling persons.
Congratulations on taking the first HONEST step. That took courage.
Thank you for your feedback and support, Georgia Bulldogs.
Since Thursday night, I felt my mind has jumped another level -- another step towards detachment. I actually looked forward to being loved again, and even if it's not my W, that's OK.
And another thing -- I don't need my W to see me as the #1 man in her life. I have two people in my life who already think that -- my kids.
I've come to realize that it's not the loss of my W that pains me -- it's the loss of my family entity. This very entity is something that my W either refuses to see, or does not hold in high regard, because that entity includes me, the H who has hurt her in many ways over the years.
I began talks with my W regarding separation of finances. I told her that I am ready to "set her free". She thanked me.
That was Monday. Today, she sends me the following e-mail:
"I am meeting your brother for dinner (just the two of us) this Friday. I feel the need to see him, maybe it's a way to say good bye, but I do miss seeing him.
Do you have any plans for this weekend? I was thinking we can drop the kids off at your parents house, sit down over a bottle of wine and go over some stuff.
For New Year's - I want to spend the night, just the four of us. It probably the last time the kids will see all of us together. I want them to remember ringing in the new year's.
Then she went on to detail some ideas regarding a New Year's weekend trip.
I only replied, "Let's talk tonight".
I feel that I need to stop fighting her. If this is the only way to get me to stop my pressuring and pursuing, and be on the road to TRUE detachment, then let it be the way. By that e-mail, she already started "opening up" to me, and the idea of being around me isn't so bad anymore. At least, that's my take.
I didn't get the whole "the last time the kids will see all of us together" part. I plan on simply being up front with her tonight and ask her. In my mind, it most certainly won't be the last time. There will be birthday parties, school events, and other life events where we will all be together.
Any words of wisdom would be appreciated here. Thanks.
Spent the last 48 hours w/out seeing the W or kids. Met a couple of ladies last night at a ballroom dance social and exchanged numbers.
Is the excitement of a fresh new life as a single man deluding me from the importance of trying to save this marriage? I just don't know anymore.
I feel detached, but lost.
I don't think so - it's normal and healthy to feel wanted and attractive again. I would not read more into it than there is.
Just my .02 cents
My W and I had some discussions over the weekend regarding what life will look like after D.
She is obviously dead set against it, and is in no way shape or form "on the fence".
My strategy (as discussed with my DB coach), is to simply make this process as friendly as possible. If D is a given, then it's in my best interest going forward to put as little pressure on her as possible. Do nothing to create animosity.
We sat and talked for a long time. We both recognized the mistakes of the past, not just from my end, but from hers as well. We said that we will always have a relationship with each other. Our relationship is not ending, it is simply evolving.
Last Friday, she had dinner with my brother. It was the 1st time she has seen him in 6 months (since the A). She told me that he is, and always will be, like a brother to her.
Regarding life after D -- The good thing is, my W and I agree on just about everything (sale of the home, distribution of marital assets, custody, etc), so there will be no lawyers involved here. We also said that regardless of how our living situations turn out, we will always be welcome in each other's homes. I know, kind of weird. It's like she wants to retain all of the good there is in our family life as much as possible after D, but can't take it to the next logical step of actually keeping the family intact. The pain I caused her runs deep, and all the reasons why we shouldn't be together get reinforced as long as she holds onto that pain.
She noted that she wants to take several items in the house with her. Some of these are very special things -- things that we bought together when we didn't have much money. Things that I bought her before my infidelity which have special meaning to her. She wants to hold onto those things.
I'm not sure what to really make of this situation as it stands right now. I feel like I'm just coming along for the ride on the D-train. In a lot of ways, I've been talking myself into D. Maybe it's a psychological reaction to the present circumstances -- a defensive mechanism to save me from further pain. I don't know. I've asked myself what I would do, if my ideal woman came into my life right now and said she wanted to be with me. Would I welcome her advances? Would I quickly move towards D myself, in order to be with this other woman? Sadly, I can't answer that question very easily right now. But I think the answer to that question may answer whether or not D is the right choice for both of us.
The day-to-day interactions between my W and I have improved exponentially this week. Now that she believes that I have bought into the idea of D, and knows that I want to do this in the most amicable way possible, she no longer feels the pressure or anxiety around me, and it shows.
But I don't know how long I can keep this up. I'm afraid that if I switch gears, or even hint at wanting to try to make this marriage work, that it'll ruin the much improved relationship that we have now -- one where we can be totally honest with each other, with no expectations.
If our relationship can only improve from this point, then I feel like I need to be on-board and go through this D process with her. Relationships can be rebuilt, even after D.
Am I crazy to think this way?
Here is part of an e-mail she wrote to her friend on Saturday afternoon (before we had our heart-to-heart talk). She shared this with me today.
"Finding out that he did indeed have intercourse with those escorts and how much money he drained really validates my strong conviction why there is no way I can be with him. No matter how much he has changed. I can't be with him because we are fundamentally two different people, with different outlook on life, different values in life, etc. Most importantly we don't have the trust anymore.
I can look in to anyone's eyes and have no regrets leaving him, falling in love and engaged in an affair with [OM] while still married. I won't apologize for falling in love with the love of my life. I wish circumstances were different for me and [OM] and who knows our path, but we both know this love is really once in a lifetime if you are lucky!
Any thoughts would be really appreciated! Thanks.
Well, my comment is - if it was such a once in a lifetime love, and the love of her life....why did it end?! I read somewhere that A's are deceitful and can cause scars across generations. So people frequently justify them (to themselves and others) as - this thing was bigger than the both of us...the love was so strong....I found my soulmate etc.
In respect of the escorts, and having intercourse with them. I can see that's really hard to overcome. I haven't fully read your sitch. How long ago was this. And what have you done by way of reparation and to try and rebuild trust?
Hi Mindsin,
Very sorry you find yourself in this situation.
Hope things get better for you as time passes. Take good care after yourself, each, exercise, sleep well.
Reading what you say your W tells you and is doing I would say she will go through with D even if she changes her mind later.
Somehow she feels like suffocating right now. Once it's all done, she will have time to relax and think about many different things.
She will then give space for some positive you both had during the M. And I would think there were many.
Please, I would listen to 25 very close, she is smart and gave you a very good advice. Do the exercises and follow your heart.
We can't say what will happen tomorrow, your W may decide to reinvest in the R... or not. The important thing here is that you become a person you love. YOU are important.
Take care and have fun with those kids,
Pink
Tonight, we will be getting the "D agreement" (which she prepared) signed and notarized. We both acknowledged that it is a gesture of good will so we have a legal document confirming all the things we verbally agreed to.
After this, she wants to have dinner with me, just the two of us. I will be acting cool and calm throughout this, without adding any pressure of reconsidering, getting back together, etc. I will also be avoiding any talk about our past failures. I'll only reminisce about the good memories we've shared, only if she brings it up.
My wife leads with her feelings, so if her feelings are there for me, she will be sure to let me know and act accordingly (including putting the D on hold). I cannot force her to think or feel anything, so I just need to accept her and focus on the other things that are going on in my life that are important to me. That starts tonight, where I will simply be enjoying the company and having good conversation with the mother of my children. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yay for the good pma! I hope things go as well as they can for you later.
We'll all be rooting for you.
Toots
Hello Mindsin,
Hope you had a good time w/your W. When you have a chance tell us how that went.
It's a difficult time, even when I think I am kind of prepared, I found myself feeling pretty bad about the D.
I am probably walking that same road, my H just told me he is looking into his 401K balance so we can get our finances separated. Not very hopeful.
Well, we will see. Like you said, maybe she can put the D on hold, you never know about tomorrow.
At least, you are working towards yourself and whatever happen you will move on too. Hope you are not feeling as bad as I am today.
Hugs
Pink
Update on my situation
Hello everyone. I thought I'd give an update on my situation. Mrond, thanks for thinking of me.
First, my W filed for divorce in mid January. We went through the process together, and it was peaceful and amicable. Now we're simply waiting for the court date, which should be after May.
I have realized over the months that, for me, to truly be detached is to let go of any hope of getting her back. That point came when she filed.
She has also decided not to sleep in our house anymore. She still spends time here (all her stuff is still here), but at night, after the kids are in bed, she leaves to go stay at her parents house. The only exceptions have been during overnight snow storms. On those days, she sleeps here with the family (in a separate room, of course).
We have agreed to spend 1 on 1 time together once every couple of weeks (dinner, or drinks). This was her idea. She says she wants our friendship to continue and get stronger. I desire the same thing.
While she says that she is no longer in a relationship with OM. She revealed to me that she still talks to him, and she even flew out one weekend to visit him. Apparently, he and his W have decided to get a divorce after all.
I think the fact that I rarely ever go on this site is a sign that I am truly detached.
Currently, she and I are attending parental education classes (court mandated) and it's been helpful. We both want what's best for the children, and we both have come to accept that our family is not splitting up -- the construct is simply changing. And I think I'm OK with that.