Divorcebusting.com

Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5

Posted By: Jefe

Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/05/14 05:18 PM

Guess I'm setting a new record for how fast I can fill a thread to 100 posts. Less than a week on that last one.

The old one:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2504468#Post2504468
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/05/14 05:24 PM

I'm just hurting, alot. I'll pull out of it, I just need some time to regroup.

This is not the life I wanted for my children. I simply can't believe that this is the life my wife wanted for them either. I hurts to believe that this is what she wants to teach her daughters about being a woman, a wife, and a mother. This IS NOT the woman I fell in love with.

I'm hearing what you are all saying, just give me a minute...

Theoden you posted this on 81388's thread, 02/07/07 10:45 AM:

"8,

I'm sorry this hurts so much.

Take a deep breath. Pray. Ask God to clarify things. Ask him for wisdom and. Panic won't solve anything. God can turn this around in an instant. He's already at work. It's never too late. Time is on your side. God is shaping these events, however painful, for your ultimate good. He hasn't fallen asleep on the job. Ask him to remind you of his love for you and his Fatherly concern. Feeling, knowing and basking in his love for you makes all the other stuff a little less daunting.

Looks like your getting a better idea of what OM gives her: validation, self-esteem. Perhaps that part of her that he "feeds" is really a wonderful and authentic part of her. Maybe you can pray that God gives you a vision to "see" that part of her more clearly. Ask God to show you how to love that part of her. Give thanks to God that you have a little more information. Run with it. Your not competing with the OM. It's not even a contest. You are better than the OM. You are walking in light and truth, you are filled with self-less love, you are fighting for your marriage and family. He's a grasping, manipulative, home-wrecking, SOB.

You are noble and relentless hunter of the heart and you are creatively and passionately pursuing your wife so that she knows what real love is.

You can tell her that you would like to stay for D birthday, but if she feels the trip is really important, you understand. Be nice, non-pressuring. Accept her decision.

Truth is, why do you want her to stay for D birthday? Your wife, right now, cares about herself more than anyone else. This is one of those symptoms. It's part of the profile. She only cares about her career, her feelings, her happiness, etc. It's all about her. She feels right now, if she doesn't take care of herself in this way she'll suffocate. It will disappoint your daughter. But you will be there for your daughter. Perhaps daughter needs to realize what kind of mom she has. Perhaps she needs to realize that daddy's the one who's really there for her. You don't need trash-talk her mom. Just let mom do what she wants, and she'll see her for who she really is.

And yes, she might end up being with OM that week. And yes, they probably will have sex.

Get over the fact, that right now, your wife would feel relieved if you died. Perhaps right now you might feel relieved if she got in a fatal accident. I've felt that. It happens. People's feelings change.

Missing D's birthday is no big deal. Don't sweat it.

As I've said. If she's having an affair, you have the moral right to divorce her. If you don't want to divorce her, you'll have to suffer horrific pain in the hope of winning her back. It can be done. It's just costly.

What do you want? How badly do you want it?

How much pain are you willing to go through to achieve what you want?

That's why you need to GAL. You need strength for the battle.

If you want to save your marriage, don't tell her to leave. She'll leave on her own if she really wants to.

If she wants the divorce, don't co-operate. Let her file, let her do all the work.

If, on the other hand you are fed up and you want *exclusive custody of the children* and want to divorce her, then, perhaps hire a Private Investigator and get proof of the affair. You might divorce her for cause. Be careful. The state may still give her patial custody even if you can prove adultery. If, in the end, you only get them on weekends, regardless of your legal wranglings, then why bother?

I'm rooting for you bro.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the angels and the saints are on your side.

--Theoden
"

It resonated with me. Don't know why, but it did.
Posted By: MCS

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/05/14 06:04 PM

"It resonated with me. Don't know why, but it did."

Yep, this one helped me out too. Thanks for sharing
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 03:53 AM

Okay Jefe,

Based on the posts it is obvious I speak as the solo voice of dissent regarding your situation. Because of all the posts I will address the advice I have been giving to you with the group:

I am not providing advice based on a rigid formula or my own personal experience. I am giving advice after studying communication styles, pattern of behavior and history between Jefe and his wife. At no time have I said, “Jefe, this is what I found worked for me.”

Jefe, from your blogging, together we have found some destructive behavior patterns you and your wife engaged in.

Do I believe your side of the story is the most accurate side of the story? No.

I believe your wife also has a story to tell.

I believe you have been as honest as you can when telling your wife’s story which I find admirable. But I believe you are telling your wife’s story through a foggy lens. You are hurt and desperate to have your family back. This creates gaps in memory and an inability to detach.

I have never swayed from my goal--which is to get you both into marriage counseling.

The best of all worlds is to get you both into divorce busting sessions because it deals with behavior modification. However, you have explained money is an issue. Because of this, my alternative is to get you both into pastoral marriage counseling because it is free. Pastoral marriage counseling is different than traditional marriage counseling because the goal is to save the marriage rather than help couples “decide what they want to do about the marriage.”

I admire people who take time from their life to offer support to others on this web site. The value of community cannot be measured when someone is going through something as painful as an unwelcome separation or divorce.

However, I caution people to pay attention to the advice and support which is being offered.

When someone gives you support or advice that explains how “they” handled a situation please take note they are relaying a story from their life. This story has a beginning, middle and conclusion. This story involves people with no relationship to you or your life. Their shared experiences are different and their perceptions are different. Even if the people in their story did everything exactly the same as people in your life it is still not the same story as your story. Your story will always be different.

Does their story have relevance to your life?

Absolutely.

For example, if your husband cheats on you once he will probably cheat on you twice. If your spouse hits you when you are dating it is unlikely they will stop hitting you once you are married. Why do we know this? Because hundreds of people with shared experiences have lived this. These people can tell you the best way to handle these situations. And, 90% of the time they will be correct.

But—10% of the time these people will be wrong.

The problem with shared experiences is we become so wrapped up in the community we forget about the individual. We become so focused on the rigid standards of the program that we fail to take inventory of its effectiveness.

Jefe, the group and I will continuing to disagree over romance and pursuit. This I accept.

But the group is wrong about whether romance toward your wife will work. Your wife responds to it. I urge everyone to stop concentrating only one aspect of the divorce busting principles.

Yes. You are not supposed to pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

But you are also supposed to listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Show them you really care about what they are saying. Don’t focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

Even Michelle’s Last Resort Technique says if your spouse starts showing interest in you that you should be receptive “but not overly excited or enthusiastic.” (Jefe, this is where you keep dropping the ball.)

But Michelle encourages spouses to accept invitations to spend time together and be responsive (just not too response). She wants you to test the waters by becoming more obvious about your desire to stay together.

My goodness…how do you think your marriage will heal?

What you keep doing wrong Jefe, is you keep wearing your emotions on your sleeve because you love your wife so much. I understand. You want your family back. And every day you don’t get your heart’s desire it hurts.

Do you have an internal time clock ticking in your head?

In other words, do you have pre-set time goals and when those goals aren’t met you are crushed? For example, “We will be a family again by Thanksgiving” and when you realize this isn’t going to happen…your heart breaks and you lose hope.

If you want to talk to an attorney, I do not discourage it. I do discourage taking legal action. I think this is lighting a match to your marriage. In fact, if you take legal action I think you are walking down a path you cannot exit from.

Now, regarding the conversation with your wife:

I think the conversation went well. You left it on a question that really wasn’t important enough to answer.

The only thing I would suggest is don’t “tell” her how she feels. “Ask” her how she feels.

W: I told you we are going full days on the weekends now right?
W: As soon as we get these new drivers trained we will go back to A/B schedules.
M: Yes. You're going to be tired.


You should have said:

M: Will that make you tired?

“Asking” her how she feels allows her to express herself. When you “tell” her how she feels she is forced to fight for her feelings if she disagrees with you.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 04:45 AM

"Jefe, from your blogging, together we have found some destructive behavior patterns you and your wife engaged in.

Do I believe your side of the story is the most accurate side of the story? No.

I believe your wife also has a story to tell.
"

You would be correct on all three assumptions. I have tried to portray her side as best I can from what she has said in the past and what she has written. Obviously it's getting filtered through my very being so it will always be skewed to some degree. I am trying to be as factual about what I believe my problems to be because I want to change my life and my behavior for the better. For God and Myself, my children, and my wife. I've been a lousy husband, I know it, and I want to change that. Have I done everything wrong? No, I don't believe so. Does my wife have some culpability here? Absolutely, but she's not here to defend herself and I can't change her. All we're left with is talking about my stuff and with the grace of God and the kind people on this forum (and a paid professional pitching in to help for no other reason than because she can) helping me change that stuff.

"Even Michelle’s Last Resort Technique says if your spouse starts showing interest in you that you should be receptive “but not overly excited or enthusiastic.” (Jefe, this is where you keep dropping the ball.)"

Yes, I agree. I also agree that I need to set some boundaries. I attempted that a little tonight and it went reasonably well.

"What you keep doing wrong Jefe, is you keep wearing your emotions on your sleeve because you love your wife so much. I understand. You want your family back. And every day you don’t get your heart’s desire it hurts.

Do you have an internal time clock ticking in your head?

In other words, do you have pre-set time goals and when those goals aren't met you are crushed? For example, “We will be a family again by Thanksgiving” and when you realize this isn't going to happen…your heart breaks and you lose hope.
"

I guess, I mean not really, but sort of. I feel like I am fighting time. I realize that I need to be in this long term. Everyone has made that clear. I guess I'm just trying to stave off particular events from happening, but there I go trying to be in control again. Need to add that to my 4th step list. Control (or lack thereof) = common theme for both of us.

"If you want to talk to an attorney, I do not discourage it. I do discourage taking legal action. I think this is lighting a match to your marriage. In fact, if you take legal action I think you are walking down a path you cannot exit from."

I have no intentions of going there. I do intend to at least talk to one to see where I'm at if she files. Seems wise at this point. I did check the court records today and she has not filed.

"Now, regarding the conversation with your wife:

I think the conversation went well. You left it on a question that really wasn’t important enough to answer.

The only thing I would suggest is don’t “tell” her how she feels. “Ask” her how she feels.

W: I told you we are going full days on the weekends now right?
W: As soon as we get these new drivers trained we will go back to A/B schedules.
M: Yes. You're going to be tired.

You should have said:

M: Will that make you tired?
"

Thank you. I need to change the way I speak to her and others in my life permanently so any insight on this topic is greatly appreciated. I have to repeat it at least 16 times to start forming better habits, right?
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 04:51 AM


Dang she's good. Amazing insight. I'm listening too. :-)
Posted By: theoden

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 05:09 AM

Jefe,

Wow....from the deep archives eh? Well...that's when I was naiive. ;-)

As you can see I was non-confrontational back then.

I didn't realize how debilitating standing and waiting would be to me. How debilitating? The stress caused me health problems: tinnitus, sleep disorders, a hiatal hernia, anxiety attacks, depression.

I laid down no boundaries and never re-attracted my wife. I wouldn't say the same things now...especially about sitting around and waiting for your wife to file for divorce. That strategy didn't work for me; nor does it work for 90% of the people out there. I was wallowing in self-doubt, self-blame and behavior modification: walking on eggshells all the time, analyzing every conversation, begging God for mercy, asking him to change me so I could get a chance to woo back my lovely but "wounded" wife.

Sadly I didn't have the moral courage to admit to myself that my wife was a lying, cheating, selfish piece of s**t. I should have laid down an ultimatum, and if she refused to dump the OM, I should have thown her crap out the front door in hefty bags and then filed for divorce.

Hindsight is 20/20. It's all I've got to offer you.

Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 05:10 AM

Yes she is.

Okay, Blogging:

Got my first laser removal treatment for the wedding band tattoo this afternoon. That hurt a bit more than I expected but it was over so fast that it was crazy. Swollen and irritated now but not too bad. The tattoo is a purple ink band outlined in black on either side. He said he fully expects the black to be gone in about 60 days with only the one treatment, maybe just a tiny bit of touch-up. The purple unfortunately is going to need 6-9 more treatments spread 60 days apart. Oh well. It is worth every bit of it. I can endure some pain and prolonged suffering as repentance for what I've caused in keeping it.

I play every other Wed in the Worship Band at church for our recovery service and tonight was my night. I was able to put some of this emotional energy to good use and stopped thinking about my stuff for a few minutes. I enjoyed that. There was also a friend of mine there who relapsed last night and was having a tough time so I talked with her for about 15-20 minutes. Always good for the soul and PMA to be able to help someone else for a moment.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 05:15 AM

Theoden, trust me when I say that I am taking all the advice I have been given and I am listening. I appreciate your comments thus far. Please do not stop giving your insight on the situation. All information is valuable right now.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 02:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Hope414


I am not providing advice based on a rigid formula or my own personal experience. I am giving advice after studying communication styles, pattern of behavior and history between Jefe and his wife. At no time have I said, “Jefe, this is what I found worked for me.”



Hope, all we (any of us) have are our own experiences (and biases), based on our own sitches. I think it might be helpful for Jefe -- and for any others following along -- if you actually would let us know what worked for you. I've never seen you mention it, you've never even initiated your own thread on this forum.

I go by what worked for me, and what I've seen work in my 10 1/2 years on this forum. I've never once seen a betrayed spouse "nice" or "romance" their wayward spouse back to the marriage, and if anything I've seen it turn OFF the wayward spouse and eat at the self-esteem of the betrayed spouse.

Jefe, I've posted my links for you before but I'll post them again if you think it would be helpful. I'm going by what worked for me (and what I've seen work for others); theoden (and some others) are going by what DIDN'T work for them, in an effort to try and help you avoid the same mistakes they made.

I'll be the first to admit that your wife MAY be different; your SITCH may be different. But it's been my observation and experience that they're usually not . . . most follow a pretty basic "script," with very few variations around the edges.

In any event, this is all "meta" discussion and I apologize for the distraction. I did want to ask Hope for some more perspective on where her advice was coming from, because it is SO specific, and SO directive (as it mine and theo's, admittedly), and yet we have zero context for it. Hope if you don't want to post it, that's cool too . . . I do appreciate the time you're taking to try and help Jefe here, and the support you're giving him. He's certainly getting multiple perspectives, and that's not a bad thing.


Starsky
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 03:42 PM

I'll go back and look for them Starsky. Yes, I do think they would be helpful. I have not dismissed the strategy I'm just taking in ALL the information.

FWIW, I can read between the lines enough to know Hope has some sort of degree in this. Whether that's helpful in this discussion or not, IDK. But she has such a keen insight into how my wife is thinking and acting I would be a fool not to listen to her advice as well.

"Sadly I didn't have the moral courage to admit to myself that my wife was a lying, cheating, selfish piece of s**t. I should have laid down an ultimatum, and if she refused to dump the OM, I should have thown her crap out the front door in hefty bags and then filed for divorce."

Theoden, my wife has already moved out I hardly think giving an ultimatum at this point would get me much of anywhere. A) Ultimatums imply the person giving them has some sort of power or control over the situation, which I clearly do not. B) Even if I did have power, my W's personality is such that she would go scorched earth just to prove to me who has the power now.

However, I do appreciate the sentiment in what you were trying to say. I also realize that you weren't necessarily suggesting that this is the next step that I should take or should ever take.

My perception is that my wife has steadily been withdrawing since this past Saturday afternoon, so all of this discussion may be a moot point anyway because we may have to switch tactics.

Now where my biggest flaws lie is in the interpretation of why she's withdrawing. I tend to go extreme worst case in my head (it has caused many marital problems over the course of years). It could be because she has progressed with OM2 and they're dating. It could be because she is depressed over the marriage, it could be because she she is having normal hormone fluctuations (I have learned the hard way to not argue, fight, or have any serious discussion with her when she is pre-menstrual. We ALWAYS have the worst fights then. If I have done my math right, that is this week. The day she walked out she was at the peak of pre-menstrual). Or, it could be that she has not withdrawn at all and I'm just miss-reading the ques. Who knows.

While I'm on the subject, though. I have been pondering the "intel" I have about her "being " with OM2 on the 17th. The intel shows that she was at CJ's (a shi**y pool hall in a shi**y part of town) with OM2, OM2's sister and her husband. She friended the sister on FB first. There is a possibility she went there with sis. There is a possibility she went with OM2. There's a possibility she went down on OM2 in the parking lot or went home with him, Hell there's even a possibility she had a 3some in the bathroom with both OM2 and BIL.
And there is a possibility she did none of this and just played pool with some friends at CJ's because that's where they wanted to go.
Do I think she is courting/grooming OM2? Yes. But we don't know his interest level. And if we are perfectly honest, he's a bit of a pretty boy and my wife (while more beautiful to me than anything) is a bit overweight and out of shape. Even that has no real relevance in this because all of the above scenarios could still be true.

Point being, after that exhaustively long paragraph, I don't really know anything. She's been treating me like a mushroom for at least 45 days.

So, I am harvesting as much information as I can to help me save me and save my marriage.
And Starsky, I read MWD's LRT and It's just a simplified version of the 37 rules so, yes I'm open to more of that, too.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 03:52 PM

OK.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 03:56 PM

I post a book and he posts two letters....LOL

Thank you Starsky,





sincerely.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 04:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Jefe
I post a book and he posts two letters....LOL



Well, someone's gotta make up for Hope414's and 25yrsmlc's long posts, and keep the average bandwidth down, lol. wink
Posted By: Sotto

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/06/14 05:40 PM

Hi Jefe, FWIW - you may not want to spend much time and energy wondering 'why has my W done this...what is she doing...with whom, why etc.'

You may just want to work on the fact that she has withdrawn. Not much you can do about that at this point....she will do what she will do....So, back to GAL, distance, focus on you and the kids etc...and do it all for 'you' - not to re-attract her back...

Hope things improve for you soon :-)
Posted By: MCS

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 02:33 AM

Starsky,

Do you have the name of your sitch, I'm trying to find it and would like to read thought it. Thanks
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 02:50 AM

What instrument do you play Jefe? I do drums and I got to play last night for an amazing service.
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 02:52 AM

Thinking about writing a country song titled:

"What part of I do don't you understand?"

I know hope would tell me there is actually a lot I need to understand, but anyway... :-)
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 03:11 AM

I play lead guitar.

Side note, we did 2 Carrie Underwood tunes and 1 Rascal Flats tune last night, big fun. I'm a hard rock guy and never get to play country.

I was in an almost meditative state on stage last night. I just let the music do the talking for me.

Another thing I have my wife to thank for. She's the one that got me the hook-up into the worship band. I had been trying for years to get into the main worship group.

I love the song title. And yes, I bet Hope would line you out pretty darn fast.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 02:14 PM

No sleep worth a crap. I dreamt about that stupid bar and Johnny all freaking night, ugh.


Jefe's mouth strikes again. Damn when will I learn to just keep it shut.

The wife called this morning to talk to the girls and when she was done we were talking for a moment, she asked: "So, how are you doing this morning?" she made a comment about missing and being away from the girls and then said, "well, somebody's got to pay the bills" which I responded , that's kind of a lame excuse..... Here come the 2x4's ..... I could not catch it before it flew out. I was sorry for it the second I said it. She responded with "And that right there is why I'm not at the house." and hung up.

I tried to call but she wouldn't pick up so I sent several texts validating her feelings and making amends and apologizing.

Damn that was a stupid thing to say and do. Ugh ugh ugh....
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 02:32 PM

Originally Posted By: MCS
Starsky,

Do you have the name of your sitch, I'm trying to find it and would like to read thought it. Thanks



Hi MCS,

I first came here in April of 2004 and went by the username of Chocolateeyes. My old posts can be found here:

Choc's posts

Then (long story about the username changes that doesn't matter now) I became Puppy Dog Tails. Those posts are here:

Puppy's posts


There's a LOT there, so if you want to skip to the most pertinent parts, my wife's affair was May - Aug 2007.


I don't want to hijack Jefe's thread, so I'll try to stop by yours in case you have any questions I can answer.


Choc/Puppy/Starsky
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 02:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Jefe
. . . she made a comment about missing and being away from the girls and then said, "well, somebody's got to pay the bills" .....



What was that supposed to mean? Are you not working or something? confused


Starsky
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 02:44 PM

And what should an addict do after such a self centered episode? Call his sponsor. News flash, I'm trying to direct the show. I'm trying to control everything. Not good. Back to my resentment list.

Detach. And let God.
Posted By: GoatGal

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 02:46 PM

Jefe,


In the future, if something like that flies out of your mouth because you're half-asleep/tired/caught off guard... simply say something like:
"Sorry. That didn't come out right/not really how I feel/not what I meant to say"

Don't bend over backwards apologizing for saying something less than perfect in response to her poke. It puts you in the one-down position again.

Why are YOU spending all this energy apologizing to HER?

Say "sorry" once. Then change the subject.

Don't worry, you'll get better at not taking the bait.
And your W sounds like one who is going to keep dangling the bait in front of you, hoping you'll take it.

By "Bait', I mean pushing your buttons to get you to say or do something that will either:
1. Make you look like the bad guy she is perfectly justified in leaving (as this scenario proves)
2. Make sure you're still dangling at the end of the line in case she decides to change her mind.

You played right into scenario #1 here. She was the one who made the snarky (?) comment first.

If you are not working and she might have a point, just try and validate.
"I know it's hard to have that responsibility." End of discussion.

By the way, is she "missing the girls" because she's busy working and supporting the family, or because she is busy enjoying other "activities"?

I see this as a dig at you, either way.
Don't respond at all if you can't keep it cool. Eventually she should stop if she doesn't get a reaction from you.

PS: I am a guitar player too! There are a few musicians on here! smile


---(G)GGG
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 02:49 PM

Originally Posted By: GoatGal
Jefe,


In the future, if something like that flies out of your mouth because you're half-asleep/tired/caught off guard... simply say something like:
"Sorry. That didn't come out right/not really how I feel/not what I meant to say"

Don't bend over backwards apologizing for saying something less than perfect in response to her poke. It puts you in the one-down position again.

Why are YOU spending all this energy apologizing to HER?

Say "sorry" once. Then change the subject.

Don't worry, you'll get better at not taking the bait.
And your W sounds like one who is going to keep dangling the bait in front of you, hoping you'll take it.

By "Bait', I mean pushing your buttons to get you to say or do something that will either:
1. Make you look like the bad guy she is perfectly justified in leaving (as this scenario proves)
2. Make sure you're still dangling at the end of the line in case she decides to change her mind.

You played right into scenario #1 here. She was the one who made the snarky (?) comment first.

If you are not working and she might have a point, just try and validate.
"I know it's hard to have that responsibility." End of discussion.


---(G)GGG



BINGO.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 03:40 PM

Her comment was a tongue in cheek comment because she has been working 12 hour days 6 days a week. But yes, I get the overall jist of what your saying. She was not jabbing at me at all. I just responded poorly, in this particular instance.

Next time I will apologize the one time and drop it.
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 03:51 PM


There are some natural remedies to help you with the stress, anxiety, and sleep. Check out the health food store. I use a homeopathic one called ignatia. Google it.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Jefe
Her comment was a tongue in cheek comment because she has been working 12 hour days 6 days a week. But yes, I get the overall jist of what your saying. She was not jabbing at me at all.


I'm not so sure, although you heard the tone, I didn't.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 04:11 PM

I heard the tone, this was a very pleasant conversation. One of the better ones in the last few days. One of her big stresses lately is money, so that is her primary focus on some levels. She certainly did not mean anything by it. I am suffering, one again, form not being detached and wearing my emotions on my sleeve. What I was thinking in my head as I made the comment was, 'if you were here at home with the damn kids you wouldn't miss them so much, now would you?'
While maybe an accurate statement, was not one that needed to be conveyed ta that particular moment and in that fashion.

Besides, I have no control over her, just me. I said something insesnitive, I need to stop that.
Posted By: CaliGuy

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 04:43 PM

Jefe ... I am reading "Hold on to your N.U.T.S." ... you might want to take a look .. short book and has some really good tools you might benefit from.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 04:57 PM

Awesome book!!!
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 05:07 PM


I can't tell you how much detaching has helped my emotional well being. Life is enjoyable again. I woke up excited to go to work today. That's the first time in a long time. I'm looking forward to having kids tonight, going to a game tomorrow. What my wife does is not a concern to me at all (that I realize anyway). You are only a few steps behind me, I think you can get to where I made it if you keep trying. It's so nice to see the fog starting to lift. Of course, the downside is that I *feel* less concerned about making the effort to reconcile; however, in a way I'm better detached that way. I'm still making an effort to be compassionate, kind, and caring - But - her rudeness, rejection, blame, and other negative emotions don't bother me as much as they did before, and that brings a real sense of freedom. Also, to know what's going to most likely happen legally helps too. So bottom line, hang in there.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 06:58 PM

Jefe,

This is where I break with the group. Please refer back to previous discussions we had on the topic of money. We suspected your wife had a problem about your employment situation. We suspected financial insecurity was an issue for her.

Now it has been confirmed.

Instead of feeling relief that your suspicions were confirmed you attacked your wife.

I believe you attacked because you were upset. I believe you were upset because you allowed your mind wander into dangerous territory.

Let’s reset and go back in time.

How do you think you might have reacted if you would have had this conversation with your wife on 10-14-14?

Would you have permitted her to speak? Would you have encouraged her to express her fears? If you would have had different listening skills on 10-14-14—why? What made your listening skills different today?

Also, what steps are you taking to change your financial situation? You said you were going to make changes. Did you? I’m not judging but you said you felt you should make changes. You felt this was in your family’s best interest. Have you changed you mind? If not, what are you doing? And why didn’t you share this information with your wife?

I strongly disagree with things your wife did. She has an equal role in the destruction of your marriage. But she was not operating in a vacuum. You have culpability. And I admire you for recognizing this.

I told you a while back your greatest asset is your heart and your capacity for love and forgiveness. But your greatest liability is the need to be vindicated when you believe you have been wronged.

This time you embraced your liability and it caused you to ignore an open door.

When people are facing divorce there are very few open doors. You do not have the luxury of shutting them.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 07:54 PM

Both my sponsors are on pretty much the same page as you are, btw.

"Would you have permitted her to speak? Would you have encouraged her to express her fears? If you would have had different listening skills on 10-14-14—why? What made your listening skills different today?"

The simple fact that I ruminated over an event all night long in my sleep, (one, my sponsor reminded me, that I have ZERO information about) had my mind in resentment mode. I was trying to make it all about me. It was not about me, she was simply expressing her feelings. And it was such a pleasant covnersation too.

"Also, what steps are you taking to change your financial situation? You said you were going to make changes. Did you? I’m not judging but you said you felt you should make changes. You felt this was in your family’s best interest. Have you changed you mind? If not, what are you doing? And why didn’t you share this information with your wife?"

I have not changed my mind at all, I have just delayed the move. With her new job requiring her to work M-Sat 10-12 hr days, I now must be available to take and pick the kids up from school everyday. And right now, after school care is just NOT an option I'm open to right now. So that limits my time I am available to an employer. I'm am still hunting a position with one of my contacts that will agree for me to be real flexible for the first 6-12 months. We may have a solution or 2 coming.

I absolutely slammed a door, I'm hoping it isn't locked.

I apologized, maybe a little too much, but I did.

I see clearly today what I need to work on. And it's all between my own ears.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 08:14 PM

Change starts with ourselves because we can't change others.

Try to identify where your missteps occurred, why they occurred and what you can do to stop them from happening again. Then take action.

You're not doing as terrible as you think you think you are.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 08:20 PM

Hope, I know your trying to make an A/B observation on her lashing episodes. The other day you said she always withdraws before she lashes, not true. That's just how it has happened lately.

What I did today is the correlation. I am extremely fortunate that I did not receive lashing in return, and I still may, the day isn't over yet. The only reason I did not this morning is because I caught it quickly, apologized, and did not escalate it along with her which is my normal pattern. We keep poking back at each other till there is nowhere else to go but up and out.

There's your insight for the day.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: CaliGuy
Jefe ... I am reading "Hold on to your N.U.T.S." ... you might want to take a look .. short book and has some really good tools you might benefit from.


I will look for that one today.

Thanks guys.
Posted By: GoatGal

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 09:02 PM

Hope you like squirrels... smile
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 09:06 PM

Ha!




Sadly, it took me a minute.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/07/14 09:52 PM

When I am on a desktop machine, I will send a partial transcript of the subsequent texts.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/08/14 02:28 AM

Well, No lashing for the evening. I really hadn't planned on hearing from her tonight but she called and was rather pleasant.

Texts from this morning:

M: I'm sorry, that was very rude and insensitive of me.
M: Sounds like that was very hurtful to you. I know how hard you've been working. Insanely hard. I can only imagine how tired this probably makes you. I know it must be hard being away from the girls. It was a foolish and reckless comment that should have never left my mouth.
W: Yes its extremely hard being away from the girls you have no idea.
M: I can only imagine. Please forgive my rudeness. You were being very sweet and that was very wrong.

This is pretty much it. I guess I could have lessened a little bit. My main focus at the moment was to defuse a "lashing" event. It appears that I was successful, for the moment.

I need to get better at being okay "with or without" as my sponsor puts it and GoatGal, Fundad, & Starsky have pointed out. I'm working on it.

BTW, Goatgal, where what do you play?
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/08/14 02:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Goatgal

Jim, Mozza...


I agree with sandi. Initially people spend a lot of time here, trying to wrap their heads around what has happened to them, and, sad to say, searching for the elusive "Magic Bullet" that, if they implement it "just right", will fix their marriage.

Or maybe they're just looking for some hope, and hope is here in abundance. Maybe just not in the form you'd like it to be.

This is the best place to vent and to talk through difficult times without having to test them out on our spouses.

Jim, in your case, do whatever you can to stop taking responsibly for your wife's feelings. HER FEELINGS ARE HER BUSINESS.
If she is unhappy, with life, or with you, it's not your problem right now.

She doesn't want to be your wife at the moment. Or thinks she doesn't want to be.
Which means your role with her has CHANGED.

You are not her rescuer, nor are you her emotional support. Let OM rescue her!

That said, always be upbeat, busy, kind, and friendly to your wife.
There is no need to be cold or distant.

But end the conversations first, don't ask questions, don't nitpick, think of her as someone who really can't have empathy for you right now.

Let your actions speak. You're GALing, you're busy with the children--you're friendly to her ON A LIMITED BASIS.

She doesn't get unlimited access to you and your soul while she is giving herself to another. It doesn't work that way, and it's time she figured that out.

You can't tell her this, she'll just have to glean it from your interactions.

Again. NOT curt. Not cold. Not indifferent.
But all you need to do is listen to her and let you know you heard her. Validate.
Don't fix! And you don't need to listen ad nauseum, either.

Use Zues's 80% rule:
Whatever warmth she gives out, give back 80%.
That will keep you from creating too much distance, but will not come off as pursuit, either.


And don't reassure her, either. Surely she knows you love her, that you're incredibly hurt, and you don't want this.

Sadly, at this point, she doesn't really care all that much. She will only begin to care when she sees that you are moving forward in your life and that the changes you make are permanent.


She will likely keep checking that you're still neatly in place so she can go off to play, confident that you're keeping her seat warm.

It when she looks back and sees you're not there putting your life on hold, that she will feel the pinch that you might not wait forever.

Again, actions. No need to say a word.



Keep up the good work!


---(G)GGG


I'm borrowing this from Little and Jim.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/08/14 03:16 PM

NOPkins has this in their sig line, interesting:

-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.
-An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.

Cobra posted this:
"Make the jump to salvage your M. Don’t try to justify it, find reasons to support it, or anything else. Just decide that is what you will do. That very act of self-determination will start in motion the events to create the patterns that may ultimately result in your saving your M, rising above your don’t-give-a-sh*t-itis, and getting back the attention from your W that you want. You just have to go on blind faith and do it."
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/08/14 04:27 PM

Originally Posted By: Hope414
I told you a while back your greatest asset is your heart and your capacity for love and forgiveness. But your greatest liability is the need to be vindicated when you believe you have been wronged....

....Change starts with ourselves because we can't change others.

Try to identify where your missteps occurred, why they occurred and what you can do to stop them from happening again. Then take action.

You're not doing as terrible as you think you think you are.


Hard to see from my vantage point.

I think I have further identified some of my behavior patters that helped get us to this explosive state, a further extension of:
"Hope, I know your trying to make an A/B observation on her lashing episodes. The other day you said she always withdraws before she lashes, not true. That's just how it has happened lately.

What I did today is the correlation. I am extremely fortunate that I did not receive lashing in return, and I still may, the day isn't over yet. The only reason I did not this morning is because I caught it quickly, apologized, and did not escalate it along with her which is my normal pattern. We keep poking back at each other till there is nowhere else to go but up and out.
"

We were working towards reconciliation until I stared pressing about Roger (OM1) and pressing and even made some threats about calling his girlfriend etc. It started to rapidly deteriorate from there. At that time I was monitoring the phone logs continuously throughout the day. I identified Johnny within the first text** (which she was more than likely trying to find out more information about the APA team that played on Monday nights). I got very inquisitive about Johnny and she was wanting to know why I was tweaking on him out of all of the team members. They texted more, I flipped more. I called her telling her I knew she was up to something. Being very insecure and overbearing while have NO real intel. It was the next day she started talking divorce. It would be another week before I found this place. A lot of damage was done by both parties in that week. But I see my place in it.

So, now we're walking through the nuclear fallout. I have made the decision to save my marriage. I have made the decision to change my behavior, not to "keep" her but because generally I've been an a$$ and I want my childeren to have a better father and my friends and family to enjoy being around me.

Just some observations.


**Side note about having your phone number on your FB page. I can find you using your phone number even if you have it selected as hidden. In other words, if I type in a phone number into the FB search field if it is tied to anyone in any fashion, hidden or not, it will parse a result. Thanks Johnny.
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/08/14 10:02 PM

A good verse for us today: "Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance" (James 1:2-3).
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/08/14 10:11 PM

AMEN.

The daily verse on my phone today was: Because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.
Proverbs 3:12


Side note. I had opportunity to gather some information about her FB postings this past week. Nothing. Not even the smallest little remotely tiny incriminating thing. Nothing at all. A whole bunch of random Religious memes.
I know this neither proves or disproves anything but I find a small bit of solace in it.
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/08/14 11:18 PM



I like that verse too. My favorite of all time is still PS. 150! I'll be doing some of that tonight and in the morning! ;-)

I'm glad you found some solace, but we both know you will drive yourself crazy trying to piece together what's going on in her head by looking at all the logs and FB stuff. It will bring you peace to just let that stuff go and free up some of your time to do something productive. You can't control her, so why chase that stuff? I made it a habit of praying for her instead of chasing the social media and Intel. I just don't care that much anymore because I'm starting to enjoy life again. Detach detach. Give up control and pray that your hearts be touched with wisdom and grace. :-)

FD

P.S. Did you listen to the Garrison Keillor show yet, it would be fun with the kids also.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/09/14 12:49 AM

Wife is on her way to pick up the girls for the night. I as so nervous with anticipation, geeze.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/09/14 01:11 AM

Okay. So tomorrow my wife is taking the girls to the park to visit Roger/OM1 at the park for about an hour. I gave her the pack of photos that I put together for him. She looked at me with the most loving eyes. She said: "That was nice...Wow, that was very nice." as she looked at the package.

It was very hard to give that to her and even speak his name. It's going to be hard knowing they are at the park with him tomorrow.
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/09/14 02:41 AM



Wow. That was sacrificial love. Reminds me of what our savior did for us. You know the Chris Tomlin song, "Amazing Love?". For a couple of weeks I let it play softly all night long as I slept. Chains are being broken.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/09/14 04:01 AM

Jefe,

I am very proud of you. I know how hard it was to do this. Especially after the events of the last couple of days.

It shows genuine growth.

Keep in mind the way to judge if you are engaging in a 180 is it should be extremely uncomfortable because the behavior is literally the exact opposite of your familiar.

I think you found a 180 tonight.

Congratulations.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/09/14 07:01 PM

Wife just called to let me know that instead of meeting them at the park they were invited to his house with his girlfriend and family to have a cookout. Whether or not it SHOULD bother me is another question. But it tears at me deeply. I was pleasant and offered no opinion about it and just acknowledged the information and kept a positive outward attitude.

We both went to church today but she did a good job of avoiding me because I never saw her. But my pastor did say she was in his 9:30 class. It wanted to make sure that was okay with me because he wanted to assure me that the church was supporting me.

Negative, worst case, thoughts running through my head all morning. Praying for clarity.

Can't wait for the girls to come home, we're going to the carnival this evening.
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/09/14 10:56 PM


Hey, at least she's still going to church. My W stopped going a couple of years ago. Don't let your imagination run off from you on the negative thoughts. You always have choice on what your mind spends its meditating on.

FD
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/09/14 11:02 PM

Thank you FD.

She dropped the girls off and left pretty quickly. She said that Roger said "Thank you" for the photos.

Nothing else to say.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/09/14 11:42 PM

Hi Jefe,

Keep in mind that your wife was invited to be a part of Roger's home and to be a part of Roger's family. Roger was not invited to your wife's home to be a part or your wife's family.

There is a huge difference.

Roger's girlfriend was the alpha female at the gathering. I don't think a clearer message could be sent on where your wife ranks in the family dynamic with Roger.

Now, whether it should bother you or not...yes...this is difficult. In a perfect world you would have been invited to the cookout. But you are making the first gesture toward bridging the gap between you and Roger.

Keep in mind, Roger's girlfriend doesn't have a horse in this race and it serves no benefit to her if you and Roger are kept apart. Sometimes our marital allies come from unusual places.

Although you probably don't want to attend cookouts with Roger and his girlfriend it is nice to be invited. Maybe the photo's you sent have begun to pave the way to invitations later on.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 12:24 AM

I think someday I could possible attend a cook out but until we deal with the messaging issue I don't think I could be in the same room with Roger.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 01:22 AM

If I were you I don't think I would want to be in the same city as Roger. Roger does not appear to be a very nice person.

My point was--it is nice to be on the guest list. And it is helpful to have Roger's girlfriend as your ally. smile
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 02:21 AM

In hindsight, I'm glad that they went to the house as there was a bunch of people there making in much safer for my comfort.

You know, Hope. All I want is some respect. I have been a lousy husband at times but I love these girls, they are both daddy's girls, and I take damn good care of them.

Roger has 4 kids with his GF and STILL wont marry her. He posts some of the trashiest, women degrading, garbage on his FB page. Like I told my wife the night this went down, I HAVE to share my daughter with him, I refuse to share my wife. I don't want villanize him, but I have reasons I don't like the guy.

And, no. I have a lot of resentment with Roger. Being in the same city is not pleasant. But I love my wife and daughter....and him...enough to deal with it as best I have to.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 02:43 AM

BTW, I would also like to mention that Daddy SHOULD NOT have gotten on the Tilt-A-Whirl tonight. What in blazes was I thinking?
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 03:01 AM

I agree with your assessment of Roger. I cannot comment about his other relationships but I can say he had no right sexting your wife.

I also agree your wife completely disrespected you and your marriage when she engaged in the inappropriate sexting with Roger.

I admire how you have handled all of this. Men with daughters should be untarnished examples of how men should respect women.

I think you are providing a remarkable example to your daughters on the level of commitment they should demand from the man they marry.
Posted By: Wet

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 03:25 AM

Hi Jefe, I know you want to be a "shining light" to your W and everyone else. Do you have a timetable for continued acting like Mr. Niceguy?

One thing to weigh, is that if you are not seeing progress, perhaps going darker. Your W has the OM, your W has you being nice to her and accepting the OM. When will it be time for you to give W what she wants, with you having no relationship with her (going dark)? There will always be contact with you and your W bc of your 2 daughters. But consider using the LRT. My prayers are with you.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 04:57 AM

Wet, I've had to mull this over a few times. My wife does not "have" other man. He is my D7's bio-dad, so I've had to come to accept him. No choice. And my continued animosity towards him is exactly what got me here in the first place. So, that being said, there will be time later to address my concerns with the situation. When she can hear it. But, there won't be a later if someone doesn't reach out first.

I already have NO relationship with her. She moved out, we spend very, very little time in the same space as one another, I don't call or text. About the only thing I am guilty of is answering her communication attempts to quickly/often.

So maybe I'm not understanding what your saying and please excuse me if this is coming across terse as it is not my intention.
Posted By: Shakspr

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 06:19 AM

Jefe, I just wanted to check in, and, man - it's wild around here. I'll get fully caught up and chime in soon.

I can, and will, send up some prayers for you tonight and tomorrow AM.

BioDad sounds like a biohazard. If he's got a "record" I would probably pursue some sort of official action. YMMV.
Posted By: Sotto

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 07:55 AM

"About the only thing I am guilty of is answering her communication attempts to quickly/often."

The above could be something to think about Jefe. I have thought this before from your posts - that you seem very 'responsive' to your W's texts etc.

You could consider reducing this - only responding if it concerns the girls. Keeping any responses brief & friendly, never perpetuating a TM exchange.

You seem very available to your W atm...

Just something to think about perhaps anyway Jefe....
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 11:12 AM

Shake, Bio-Dad is a moron, a philander, but as far as I know not a menace to society or anything like that. He just refuses to stand up and be a real man. And that's his choice. All my wife has wanted since 2007 is for my daughter and Roger to know each other because she has never met her dad and it has really affected her and I have been a d-bag about the whole thing.

Her actions are her own, but I made it real easy for stuff like this to happen. Understand, I am NOT excusing her actions. There WILL be a time and place for us to reconcile that. Until then, I need to deal with the crap and resentment in my own life that made my house so uncomfortable that my wife did not feel like she had a safe have haven to be able to share and discuss anything/everything.

Toots, I am thinking about it. Thank you for pointing it out. I am responsive, that is for sure. Just more things I need to think about.
Posted By: SunnyB

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 01:43 PM

Originally Posted By: FunDad


You know the Chris Tomlin song, "Amazing Love?".


Yes, I know that song. My H played and sang it in church yesterday. I particularly enjoyed the line, "In all I do, I honor You. "

I did not sing along.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 02:07 PM

So sorry, RPP. I don't see how you do it without throwing tomatoes at the stage.
Posted By: Wet

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 02:32 PM

Hi Jefe,

I'm sorry about my post. I didn't understand the whole pictures to the bio-dad thing, and spouted off when I shouldn't have. I did not mean to cause you stress. Forgive me?
Posted By: T384

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 03:05 PM

Jefe - maybe you could set a goal for yourself. If it's not an emergency then you could say you will wait 1 hour before responding and keep it limited to a short one message response?

Remember you're busy GALing and being mysterious. You don't always have your phone on you wink
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 03:23 PM

Originally Posted By: Wet
Hi Jefe,

I'm sorry about my post. I didn't understand the whole pictures to the bio-dad thing, and spouted off when I shouldn't have. I did not mean to cause you stress. Forgive me?


Absolutely, Wet. I kind of figured you were missing part of the story. No worries. Quick recap. OM1 is D7's bio-dad and my wife has been pushing for more visitation. We currently have been doing quarterly, my wife is pushing for bi-weekly, I'm hoping for something in the middle like monthly for now, and build up to more. I know it is hard to see on the surface on a message board and even though my wife has said she wasn't going to tell me where she was taking them, she has absolutely honored me on this. Until yesterday, D7 has not seen Roger since May, I believe. She was completely transparent about the entire thing. Where they were meeting, how long they would be there and even called to let me know there was a change of plans. So this builds some trust with me and it was a huge gesture on her part.

This situation has caused more stress and fights in our marriage than anything else. I think the message is clear though, Jefe needs to lighten up and let God be in control of all of this because I've been trying to control it and it ain't worked yet.

Thanks for being available for me, Wet.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 03:44 PM

That's an idea TO.

I live next door to my grandmother so we can look in after her from time to time. She fell this early morning and had to go to the ER (she is still there). My wife called to check in on things and while we were talking we got on the subject of her pool league and her trying to make it to play tonight. I asked her if it was really that important. She responded that it was just as important as my band rehearsal. That's when I told her that I hadn't been to rehearsal in months. She said since when? I said since family became more important. It just doesn't matter like it used to any more. She answered, "Oh." Maybe another 180 for her. IDK, and honestly today, I don't care. I don't care about DBing, I dont care about Rogers or Johnnys, I dont care about my wife's attitude, I don't care about any of it.

The kids are out of school today, I have a full plate of work I need to try and figure out how to get done with 2 small children, and a grandmother with stitches in her face that is getting more frail by the day. I have a marriage that in unraveling, a financial situation that is stressful, and God has chosen now to convict me of all of my behavior for the last 8 years - marital and otherwise.

So, my plan for the day today is to breathe and ask God to show me my next step. Which may be just as simple as putting my shoes on.
Posted By: CaliGuy

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 04:00 PM

Jefe hang in there

God never gives us more than we can handle. Just try .. as hard as you can to keep the backslides down at this stressful time ... If you have truly made these changes then even when the chips are stacked against you, you have to prove to yourself you are a better man now .. and how you handle things now everyone takes notice .. do not look at this as Gods conviction, maybe he is giving you an opportunity to step up and be the man anyone would want in their lives ... taking care of himself, his kids, and his family ... this includes your Grandmother.

Praying for you and yours ... hang in there.
Posted By: T384

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 05:01 PM

Jefe -

Now is your time to just take things day by day and continue to work on yourself. I am sorry to hear about your grandmother. Right now your wife is not who you thought you knew. Let her go do her own thing. Focus on you and your children (grandmother too)

You've worked hard on your changes and we are all entitled to bad days. But don't let her actions hurt your PMA

Stay strong, you've got this!
Posted By: SunnyB

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 06:27 PM

Jefe, sounds like an overwhelming day. Praying for you!
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 06:47 PM


Some days our goal needs to simply be to not make things worse. Anything you do to brighten someone's day or serve someone else is a step forward.
Posted By: Shakspr

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 07:09 PM

Jefe, you have not been a d-bag. If BioDad signed away his rights, I would do the same thing. Your daughter needs 1 Dad. Especially when she is so young...how confusing does your W need to make this stuff? Imagine yourself at 7? Heck, I had two older half-brothers show up and that age and it took me a year to get my head around the idea that my Dad could be married more than once.

Did you formally adopt? I just want to make sure I'm getting the whole story here.

I don't understand this bio crap. I really don't. My D21 is interested in her bio-dad's family. AND HE'S A RAPIST.

Rant over. My two cents may be unwarranted here. But all this unnecessary confusion initiated by "well-meaning" adults into the lives of children drives me batty.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 07:21 PM

Thanks for the support everyone. I'm just beyond overwhelmed today.

Shake, in short, no I did not adopt. I signed the birth certificate because I was the one that was there when she was born. He11, I got to hold her before my wife did. Don't try and understand it. All I can say is that the difficult dynamics in my wife's life have led us here and regardless of what I think about it or how much I've tried to control and change it, it still is going to be exactly like it is. Time for me to stop trying to be my wife's enemy and just embrace it the best I can.
Posted By: Shakspr

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/10/14 09:01 PM

Jefe, I don't understand ANYTHING. But I do know that love is boundless, and you have a lot to give. Like me, you wish you had tapped into that reality earlier. No worries. You have 40-50 more good years left in you.

Peace be unto you. Now get to work. smirk
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/11/14 12:38 AM

Well, OM2/Johnny has moved further up the ladder. If they aren't actually dating it's not for a lack of her trying. She's pursuing him hard. Like I need this extra crap today.

I waited an hour to answer her last text. She was just asking for money for her league tonight and I'm not really okay with giving her money to be away from the family.

I'm choosing to remain silent about the intel I have so as to avoid a lashing episode.

I would like Hope and Starsky's input here if they are kind enough to share.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/11/14 02:12 AM

Assuming your intel is unassailable here :

This is why I don't like to validate -- or more -- spouses while they're still wayward. It only fuels their sense of entitlement, at a time when they are still feeling HIGHLY entitled.

You do the selfless thing and validate your wife's complaints about your stance toward this man, and this is how she rewards you: BY PURSUING HIM, HARD.

I keep repeating myself here, but I still say THERE WILL COME A TIME, if you are fortunate, that you can make your amends towards this woman. While she is still wayward, NOW IS *NOT* THAT TIME.


Starsky
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/11/14 02:22 AM

Not unassailable to a relationship but she is performing Acts of Service and Gifts for him. Still don't know his involvement in it, but she IS pursuing him.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/11/14 02:32 AM

I meant, is your intel solid (key logger, VAR, etc).
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/11/14 02:37 AM

Hi Jefe,

You do not give your wife money so she can engage in activities designed to destroy your family. This would be not only be counterproductive to your ultimate goal it would only enable terrible behavior. No good will come from it.

If she wants to play pool, she can find the money. If she wants to go to out dancing with her friends, she can find the money. These are her choices not her necessities.

On another note, how are you doing? Your life got very hard very quickly. Are you talking to your sponsor or just internalizing all of this?
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/11/14 02:57 AM

I talk to my sponsor every day, but sometimes I barely hold it together it seems like. I'm probably internalizing more than I should.

You know, my wife left then 2 weeks later the transmission in her car blows up, the following week the starter & battery in my truck fail then a tire explodes. 2 weeks after that the axel on my work trailer comes apart. 4 weeks later the engine on my truck blows. While I'm in a rental my wife starts courting a new guy. My grandmother has fallen 3 times since Aug and she's not doing well. The weeks before my wife left I discoverd I have some liver issues (very minor) and some pancreatic issues, related I'm sure in part to my extensive drinking career and the poor diet I had in the past. I'm scared to death of the future of my marriage and my family. On top of that I am starting to see all the parts of my life where I have not been a very good person. And the icing on the cake is my wife is living happy and care free, going where she wants, doing what she wants, being with who she wants and is planning a big party with all her "girlfriends" like she's back in freaking high school.

Sorry her family is such a damn hindrance to her

Some days I feel like I'm holding on by a thread. and this too shall pass. God has been here for me, and honestly I probably don't deserve much more than I am getting right now.

Thank you for asking Hope, because you give me hope.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/11/14 03:07 AM

Originally Posted By: Starsky309
I meant, is your intel solid (key logger, VAR, etc).


I have no way of having any good intel at all. FB from someone else that is friends with her is the only access I have, sadly.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/11/14 03:12 AM

Jefe, please know that you deserve a lot better than what you are getting.

What is happening to you is not a punishment. It is a tragedy.

There will be things that will happen in our life which we have no control over and this will be frustrating. Life is a conglomerate of experiences that build who we are. Some experiences will be good, some will be bad, and some will be neutral.

I am so sorry the bad is happening to you right now in such waves. This is the time you need to reach out to people and ask for help. You will be surprised to find out how many people love you and want to be there for you.

Does it replace the yearning you feel for your wife?

No.

But it will remind you that you are loved and valued.

And when we are in stress we need to be reminded that we are loved and valued.
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/11/14 08:15 PM

Amen. Thanks Hope.
Posted By: PeterV2

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/12/14 01:33 AM

Jefe, stop digging for intel. It's not productive. As a musician you have a fertile imagination - good for music but bad for being a LBS. It keeps you up at night - not good. Learn some thought stopping techniques and whenever a thought of your W with OM1 or OM2 (reminds me of Dr Suess Thing1 & Thing2) enters your head, recognize it and picture a stop sign and stop that thought - think about something else. It takes practice but I've gotten a lot better at it. It's easier if you don't go looking for intel. That just focuses your mind on the wrong subject matter.

Focus on areas of your life that are not in turmoil.

As for your grandma, she needs a falls assessment done as well as a good analysis of her home to minimize the risk of falls. There's lots of good stuff on the internet about that - Morse Falls Scale for one. Falls with seniors is serious business. Focus on that.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/12/14 03:24 AM

Peter, I know your right. That still small voice told me not to yesterday. It said over and over, don't do it, don't do it.

Good evening, Hope. I am better tonight. Sorry for the stress out.
I have been doing some reflecting about the relationship and and have noticed a few things, but I have a couple of questions for you first.

Thing one. How did you know this is playing out just like 8 years ago? I mean I can clearly see it now, today, but I lived it the first time all you have is just an extremely over generalized, one sided synopsis of it. We have had many instances over the years, but this one is different. It is emotionally playing out almost exactly like before we were married.

Thing two. What if I chose door number 1? "Om my gosh, she's asking me to carry out her threats."

I'll post my observations after your answer.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/12/14 04:33 AM

Are you asking what I think is likely to happen if you call your wife’s bluff and file for divorce?

The honest answer is, “I don’t know.”

But I caution people never to engage in an action with the hope of getting a response from someone else. It is manipulative and this strategy is almost 100% guaranteed to backfire. The damage done by this kind of behavior causes a repairable relationship to be completely destroyed.

One of the reasons marriages crumble so quickly when the word Divorce is spoken is because a bond of trust, which is the foundation of marriage, is broken once that word is used. You have removed your spouse from a promised lifetime partnership, which was unconditional, and suddenly set perimeters on their value in your life.

This has an immediately physiological effect on your spouse and takes away their ability to feel secure. Once a person’s security is threatened it changes them.

I want you to carefully consider any action you take against your wife.

Before you do anything I strongly urge you to analyze how the actions she took against you made you feel. Yes, you felt hurt. Yes you felt bewildered. Yes you felt unsettled.

But you also felt other things. You felt resentment. You felt anger. You felt betrayed.

She will feel these things also.

Can there be reconciliation when both spouses feel this way? Yes. But it is difficult. There has to be a genuine desire on the part of both spouses to heal the marriage...and this is difficult when both have been deeply wounded because both spouses are playing "gotcha."

Do you believe your wife will forgive you for hurting her? Do you believe she will fight for your marriage?

I always tell people--when you engage in a negative act do so with the worst case scenario in mind. It is the most honest assessment of what the future probably holds.

When people hurt us there is a strong urge to attack back.

If we dislike them hitting back makes us feel better. If we love them we believe hitting back will help them see they hurt us.

In reality the only thing hitting back does is cause bruises. So if your intention is to cause bruises…hit back. You will cause a bruise. But you will probably not obtain a result.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/12/14 04:55 AM

Nooo. Not my intention at all. I meant when you asked me what I thought about her actions that day. Just wondered where you planned on going with it since I chose door number 3 and that wasn't one of the choices given. I thought there might me some grand source of wisdom I was perhaps missing out on.

She has withdrawn, no doubt about it. Possibly since my comment on Friday. maybe for other reasons. Who knows. I am beginning to wonder if this isn't just one long drawn-out lashing episode, her leaving, that is.
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/12/14 02:52 PM


Jefe - what's your foundation? One thing I've realized is that too much of my foundation was placed in my W, instead of my faith. Keep focusing on your faith, it's a much more stable foundation and does not fail like our spouse can (and will). I'm saying this because we both know you need to keep detaching from the emotional turmoil she has created. When you feel the need to go after the intel do something else instead: Pray, listen to a song, figure out a lick, plan something fun for the girls (even the next candy you will give them), look at a funny website. Anything. This will become a habbit and will help you stay positive.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/12/14 04:04 PM

I know you're right. The events that led up to her walking out are going to hard enough to overcome. Everything that has happened since Sept is making it that much harder. The intel I gather makes it wors because it's not real information just little tidbits that my mind has a field day with. And yes, I'm in emotional turmoil.
Like Hope has said over and over I need to be patient and stay the course and stop letting every single little action dictate what the overall big picture looks like.

She did call this morning and not to talk to the kids. So that's something. But I guess I can't hang my hat on it.

The holidays are looking scary to me and I know it's just a mental thing I need to get over. For whatever reason my wife is not wanting my family and I'm assuming her family to know she moved out. She made some comment abot that the other day. So that means we are going to do Thanksgiving and Christmas at both places while we pretend all is well. Or she will choose to let everyone know thereby making it miserable for us to try and decide whe gets to spend what time with whom and who gets the kids for what event. I can't fathom why anyone would want to do this to their children. I don't think my w realizes that it's just just me she will divorce if she chooses to go that route but the entire extended families which are fairly close to both of us. It just hurts that she doesn't seem to be thinking about her family and marriage much.

Ok, enough negative thought for the morning.

Thank you FD.
Posted By: UpperCu

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/12/14 04:38 PM

Jefe, are you "covering" for your wife by hiding the fact she has moved out? And your holiday plans... Is she calling the shots on plans or are you making your own schedule? Sounds like you need to decide what you are doing rather than letting her decide for you.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/12/14 04:56 PM

Not covering. My wife is under some strange illusion that this whole thing isn't blatantly obvious. My parents know but my wife doesn't realize that. Her mother knows because she is living with her. I don't know how much of the extended family knows. I have made it a point to not discuss our personal crap with anyone that doesn't "NEED" to know because it just makes the road back home that much less smooth. And besides people naturally want to take sides and that's not what this whole thing is about.

We don't normally make plans unless we intend on hosting, which it's not our turn this year. We just show up at either sides function when we are told to. I'm just saying any way you slice it, short of reconciliation, the Holidays are not going to be pleasant for me I just hope she doesn't make it any more difficult on the girls than she has to.

Oh yeah, my wife's birthday is on thanksgiving this year adding even more stress to the day than there already is.
Posted By: Sotto

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/12/14 06:04 PM

We don't do thanksgiving here - so one less occasion for us Brits to worry about! In terms of Christmas, I've just decided - that's one day, and I already have plans. For New Year? That's just one night and I will come up with plans. The rest can take care of itself. I'm not going to have a tree, and it will all be pretty low key, and I'll plan some nice stuff with friends etc.

Jefe, perhaps you could have a think about what you are and are not willing to participate in with regards to holiday stuff? There is no need for you to go to stuff that won't feel comfortable, and fine to let your W know this too....

There are implications to waywardness and family knowing may well be one of them. There is no need for you to collude in 'celebrations' in a way that you don't wish to.

You could have a think about how you, the girls and your family would like to enjoy the celebrations and let your W know what your preferences are.

Also, to talk of the holiday 'season' may extend it in your mind. These are just a couple of dates/events. For the rest of it you can do whatever you like.

I'm just thinking - well, I'm 47 and have had a load of nice Christmases - lucky me. This one may not be the best, but hey I've done pretty well this far. It's my turn to not have a 'great' Xmas and that's fine...

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is - you can worry about it - or you can not worry about it - your choice ;-)

And please don't think I'm trying to minimise any pain..I'm just trying to help!
Posted By: UpperCu

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/12/14 09:38 PM

"My wife is under some strange illusion that this whole thing isn't blatantly obvious."

If she really thinks that, the holidays may serve as a nice wake up call for her. I'm counting on the awkwardness and questions my W gets to rock her boat quite a bit.

But don't think that she is "not" thinking about the holidays and her birthday. I still have my W at home (she doesn't have anywhere else to go or I think she'd have moved out already) and she seems to be squirming thinking about how the holidays will play out. I think of the holidays as a time to flex my DB muscles and show how I can GAL, detach, and not pursue.

I know you have the kids to think about too, so I would suggest you find a solid plan for what they will do (with you hopefully) and do something different and fun this year. Maybe even spend some money too! Go out of town with the kids, go to a NFL game, parade, musical, SOMETHING to show you are a new Jefe. If you don't have money sell something to pay for it.

Now is really not the time to slow down Jefe, you know that. You don't have 5 threads on this forum because you are hopeless. You have a marriage and W worth fighting for, and you are just the man for the challenge.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/13/14 12:20 AM

I'm sorry guys. I just having an rough week. Thank you for the vote of confidence, UC. You are right about all of it. I don't know why I'm feeling so hopeless now. I know this isn't going to be fixed tomorrow. I know Hope said I need to dig in. My sponsor said it's likely to get worse before it gets better. My mind is my worst enemy this week.

I want to stand and fight for my wife and my marriage. I just don't know what to do next. This hurry up and wait stuff kills me.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/13/14 02:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Jefe
Nooo. Not my intention at all. I meant when you asked me what I thought about her actions that day. Just wondered where you planned on going with it since I chose door number 3 and that wasn't one of the choices given. I thought there might me some grand source of wisdom I was perhaps missing out on.

She has withdrawn, no doubt about it. Possibly since my comment on Friday. maybe for other reasons. Who knows. I am beginning to wonder if this isn't just one long drawn-out lashing episode, her leaving, that is.


Even this is not very clear, Hope^^^

You asked me if I realized that she was asking me to carry out her threats. You said that should have been my first response. I am basically asking where you were going with this thought process.

So, what I meant to say was, Holy cow! She's asking me to carry our her threats! What do I do now?
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/13/14 03:29 AM

WOW, wife called to say thank you for something I did for her today and said: "Thank you for all you did today, you definitely made my day a whole lot better."

Very nice and completely unexpected.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/13/14 03:31 AM

Hi Jefe,

I throw the question back at you.

If this wasn’t your wife what would you think about someone asking you to carry out their threat to hurt you?

Break it down.

Pretend you had a friend and they got angry at you.

While you were arguing with this friend they threatened to take you to small claims court. Later, you and the friend reconciled and the friend apologized.

Two weeks later you got into another fight and the friend threatened to take you to small claims court again. But, as with the first fight you reconciled and the friend did not file in small claims court.

The third time you got in a fight the friend demanded that you file the lawsuit for him in small claims court so he could sue you.

What would you think about this behavior?
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/13/14 03:37 AM

I would think that the friend really has no intentions of filing suit but wants to make it very clear to me that they are hurt by my actions. So hurt, in fact that they feel like I have already filed suit through my actions. Or possibly in my wife's case, if you are hurting me this badly you must want a divorce, why don't you just get one already.


Yikes!

Is that what you're seeing and trying to get me to see, Hope?
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/13/14 03:50 AM

Let's throw it out to the group and ask them.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/13/14 04:05 AM

Well, Hope. I appreciate all you do for me. I am trying to be a good student. I reread back over your posts often and catch something new almost every time. I still feel like you are reading the situation very clearly and correctly. I also feel like I want to try and hurry up this 12 step stuff along but my sponsor keeps slowing me down so I am learning to let my will go and just follow for a while.

I have noticed, like I mentioned before that this is following a very similar path to the original break-up before marriage. Which I think you identified early on as well. I also see that door I shut last Friday was a little more detrimental that I originally thought and we're just now coming back out of it.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/13/14 04:28 AM

You and your wife follow very specific patterns of behavior.

Before you can have a healthy marriage you have to identify where the conflicts arise and how to resolve them.

Your sponsor is correct. You need to slow down and review where you have been, where you are and how you got here. Then decide where you want to be and what you need to do to get there.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/13/14 04:58 AM

Hope, I think I can map out for you this last conflict and a few of the others and show exactly where they arose. You already almost perfectly mapped the first one, like you were there.

Roger has been the #1 source of conflict in our marriage, I think I effectively "shot the hostage" on that one this past weekend. It may take a while for that to sink in but I refuse to fight about it from this point forward. We have some healing to do with Roger, but I'm DONE fighting. The rest is actually fairly simple. I just have to get to the R point first.

Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/13/14 02:48 PM

Originally Posted By: Jefe 11/12/14
WOW, wife called to say thank you for something I did for her today and said: "Thank you for all you did today, you definitely made my day a whole lot better."

Very nice and completely unexpected.


Again wow, I just got a random text out of the blue that said: "Thanks for all you do."

Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's even more confused pt 5 - 11/13/14 03:58 PM

New thread here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2506994&#Post2506994
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