http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2496087#Post2496087Link to my previous thread above...
I am speaking with my DB coach later about all of the aforementioned topics and how she would recommend that I proceed.
The past few days have had some ups ad downs. My W can be a little bi-polar,but not in an extreme way. One day, she looks me in the eye, is super friendly and then the next day seems to want to avoid me, does not make eye contact, seems rushed, etc.
We ended up hanging out Monday and Wednesday nights. We had a great time. She expressed her sadness that we are where we are and mentioned that she deserves a lot of the blame for where we are. She agreed that we just did not make each other a priority and did not communicate our needs to each other. She also said she knows that a D would devastate our family.
What frustrates me is that she will outline the issues and will agree that they do not seem insurmountable. But yet she won't get off square one and just commit to working on our M.
I clearly just need to back off.
My other concern is my kids. They both have now said things about how we are behaving as a family. My S8 cried last night and said that everyone was being mean to each other. It broke my heart. I don't think we are overtly mean. My W definitely can be short with everyone (including the kids) and I will show my frustration, which is perceived as being mean.
Finally, a friend of mine thinks my W is depressed. She is just unhappy inside and needs help.
One day, she looks me in the eye, is super friendly and then the next day seems to want to avoid me, does not make eye contact, seems rushed, etc. and I will show my frustration, which is perceived as being mean.
Hate to say it Sho, but that's pretty typical behavior for someone in an active affair.
What frustrates me is that she will outline the issues and will agree that they do not seem insurmountable. But yet she won't get off square one and just commit to working on our M.
That's because she is leading with her feelings.
Yup, that is what my DB coach said. Her advice was to back off. While there has been a lot of progress since my situation started in June/July, my W clearly is still not ready to fully commit. She said my motto should be "no pressure" about everything. This will give her the space that she needs/wants while also getting her to miss me more. Like you have said, my W needs to realize that she will lose me. That is very likely why she is not ready to commit yet.
Shodan,
You said:
Like you have said, my W needs to realize that she will lose me. That is very likely why she is not ready to commit yet.
How is your wife going to realize she'll lose you?
You sleep in the same bed, you've been tolerating her affair patiently, have laid down little or no boundaries (except
saying you won't live in an open-marriage while you still live in one), and allowed her to pretend she's not in an affair. Maybe I haven't read your full sitch, but have you created a separate bank account, or something to indicate you are readying yourself for a new life without her?
How will your wife miss you more, unless there's some way she feels your absence and feels like you are moving with your life WITH or WITHOUT her? They say GAL and Last Resort Technique probably are a powerful combo in doing that. I personally think it's hard to maintain LRT for months and months -- it's easy to slip and allow your cheating spouse to cake-eat, since you are human, warm-hearted and love your wife.
How is wife feeling you slowly slip away?
How can you not pressure her into re-commiting, while subtly signaling you are moving on?
--Theoden
Theoden,
Great question. You are right that I have done a poor job of showing this. I have met with a few mediators and send my W the notes from those meetings. I had been pushing her to meet with one of them with me, but I have not been able to get our schedules to align.
Besides that, you are right that we share the same bed and the same life due to our kids. I don't want to move out and frankly don't want her to either. I am definitely less available for her (not calling or texting) and do my own thing from time to time. This weekend was tough due to Halloween and my S8's birthday party...I did not want to ruin anything for my kids.
Ultimately, I am trying to be the husband only a fool would leave and acting as if. For example, at the Halloween party we went to on Friday, I was social and fun, getting drinks for other people, etc. Of course, multiple people commented that my W and I were a super cute couple, even though we were near each other only 20% of the party. My W heard these comments.
This week I have a work dinner tonight and then my W is traveling for work Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday (back Thursday night). We will not see each other much this week.
"You sleep in the same bed, you've been tolerating her affair patiently, have laid down little or no boundaries (except saying you won't live in an open-marriage while you still live in one), and allowed her to pretend she's not in an affair."
Shodan, I agree with Theoden here. You say that you are trying to be the husband only a fool would leave. But I don't think you are dealing with the fundamental issue here - what you will and will not tolerate in your R. What are your boundaries? At what point will you actually implement the "I won't live in an open M" boundary that you say you have?
I think you are giving messages to your W that it's okay to disrespect your M and not act in the best interests of you, your R and your kids - that you will still share a bed, be loving and accept the A continuing without making fundamental changes in your M.
I worry for you that you are actually making yourself into the husband "only a fool would stay with." I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.
But above all, your W needs to respect you, and your current approach/stance doesn't demonstrate self respect. See the Chump Lady website - are you doing the 'pick me' dance? I don't think acting social and fun at a party is going to 'cut it' whilst you aren't dealing with this fundamental boundary issue. And if you do set a boundary, your W may not like it, and it will upset the "apple cart" but she'll sure as heck respect it.
You say "we share the same bed and the same life 'due to our kids.' I don't want to move out" - but that just sounds like a weak excuse to me....
One thing I try and remember is that 'who I am' during this process is actually more important than the R. At the end of this, you need to feel happy that you have been the person you want to be in your life going forwards. Not just buried your own needs and interests to try and save your M. Good marriages should be based on equality.
Please forgive any harshness. I know this is hard, but I do think you need to face this issue....
Seeing a lot of parallels in this thread to my own situation.
I am at the point of:
- moving up to the attic to sleep
- separating bank accounts (moving my salary to my own account, removing overdraft facility from the joint account)
Right now we are kind of passing each other in the house, not saying much. I am initiating contact less and less (falling off the wagon occasionally) while being friendly and open
Older 2 sons are away as much as they can be either at school or at their girlfriends
Having a plan and having support from others to implement it helps. Sharing the true nature of the situation with my sons also helps my resolve - as it is also about protecting them.
Thank you to everyone for their feedback. I really do appreciate it. I am thinking about what I want to do now. I know that my W needs to end the A before we can work on our M. I think she ended it but could still be in contact with him. Therefore, the "addiction" still has its fangs in her.
As everyone has stated, she needs to feel that she is losing me. She has stated that to me directly (e.g., "I know being in limbo is not fair and that I risk you being fed up and just leaving me.") But I need to make my actions back up my words. How I plan to do this, without moving out, is to be much less available to her. I need to make sure that our paths do not cross and that I am out for work or fun when she is at home.
Ultimately, I am going to take any and all pressure off of her and give her space.
I should have added that I did speak with my W last night while she was traveling for work and she admitted to the A, albeit only an EA.
We somehow got into a discussion of our R and I mentioned that we need full trust and honestly before we can work on our R. I told her that I know what has been going on with her and the OM, that it was disrespectful and damaging to our M and our family. I said that even if we don't stay married, we will be tied at the hip for the rest of our lives due to our kids, birthday parties, holidays, graduations, grandkids, etc. Therefore, it is in our best interest to be honest with each other no matter what the outcome of our M.
She of course denied everything at first but then finally admitted to a very serious EA with him. She said he was there for her when she was so unhappy. She said that I was not around (I was at martial arts two nights per week) and that he was there for her. She told me that she knows this was a bad thing for our marriage, was sorry that she did it and that she should never have gone there (she claims they are not in contact). But she also said that it may be a signal that our M is not working if she found it appropriate to seek solace outside of our M.
Do I think it was an EA only? No. I am 99.99% confident it was physical. Not sure that it really matters actually...an EA is equally damaging to a M.
so the positive outcome is that she "admitted" to it. But clearly she is not in the place of wanting NC, wanting to give me full transparency and wanting to work in our M at all costs.
Ultimately, I am going to take any and all pressure off of her and give her space.
That would certainly be the easiest route.
My wife is traveling for work to NYC this week (she was gone Tues and Wed nights, back later today). Both mornings she texted me to let me know that she could not sleep. Again, it is so ironic that we could be in this situation and yet my W needs me in bed with her to sleep well.
She then also called me and then emailed me (I did not pick up her phone call because I was on a business call) to let me know what she is going to be gone only 1 night the week of Nov 17th vs. the 2-3 nights she originally planned. She is not traveling next week.
What does this mean? Nothing really but it does show that my wife probably ended the A with the OM (or she would want to be in NYC a lot more often).
What am I doing about out situation? As stated, I am backing away. I have crossfit tomorrow morning and have plans Saturday night with a friend. As everyone has tried to get me to understand, I need to pull back and create an opportunity for her to miss me.
I created the following list that I need to follow:
- I need to detach, not be around as much…give her space
- Don’t talk about R or A
- Stop going to yoga with her…she needs to miss me. We probably go to class together two times per week. We have fun when we go. But I need to stop doing this.
- No runs or walks together. For example, we tend to walk the kids to school together 1-2 times per week. We usually get a coffee on the way back and then go about our days. While I know it has helped my W see me in a good light, I need to stop doing this.
- Stop doing nice things for her except making coffee in the morning...I want to stick with this one.
- “ignore” her a bit at home. Be nice, positive but not "there" for her
- GAL…go out once per week with work or other friends + go to Crossfit three times per week
Hi Shodan
Sounds like a good list to me...and my advice would be - don't be watching for any early signs of - 'has she noticed?' etc....
Make it a gradual withdrawal, and because you have other things going on for yourself etc...
Just do it for yourself, for your own need of distance, space and calmness..
Good luck :-)
my W came back from her business trip last night. When she got home, I was playing with D10 and S8. We all said "Hi" but no one ran over to hug or kiss her. A few minutes later, I went in the kitchen with my S8 and my W said "no one even gave me a hug when I came home." So my S8 hugged her and then went back in the living room. She looked at me and said "maybe their Dad should set a better example." I smiled and just stood there. I mentioned that my S8 gave me a big hug the night before, which he has not done in months. My W then said "our family is falling apart", walk to me and gave me a big hug.
Her somewhat more "warm" actions towards me are not going to change what I am doing. In fact, it gives me even more motivation to pull back.
^^^^ I think you've got it.
Seems like she's still torn. That's fine; it's not your job to persuade her anymore, the ball is in her court. If she wants to make the move back toward commitment to the marriage and to the family, you've certainly left the door open, Sho.
I think it's Schnarch who calls this "letting them remain in the crucible." As a "pleaser" type myself, I'm forever trying to DIFFUSE situations and their moments of discomfort, but sometimes it's best to let it be, and let the person deal with their conflicting feelings.
Starsky
Agree, she is torn. For example, she is not traveling next week and the week after she moved her trip from two nights away to only one night away. She wants back into the family but I am not sure back with me (at least not yet).
But she is trying to connect with me more. For example, when I send her an email about the kids, she will call me to talk about it, rather than just email. Or when I send her my work travel itinerary, she normally just responds "ok" or not at all. Now, she responds with a much longer email.
Another ironic note...after two nights of not sleeping well in NYC, she told me this morning that she slept great last night.
Seems to me that the true tipping point will be if/when she says "I want to commit to our M. What do I need to do?" Until then, I just need to detach and give her the opportunity to miss me.
Seems to me that the true tipping point will be if/when she says "I want to commit to our M. What do I need to do?" Until then, I just need to detach and give her the opportunity to miss me.
It almost seems to me like she's trying to get back into the marriage and the family, incrementally, WITHOUT having to commit to it -- or to you. Kind of a "Hey, can we just forget all this happened?" sorta thing. While simultaneously maybe doing a "hey, we need to cool it for awhile" thing with OM as opposed to a full break there either.
It shows a lack of introspection and having "done the work," as we've discussed before (and therefore a recipe for failure), but it does seem like that's what she's trying to do, at least to me anyway.
Starsky
I agree on your first point..."can I incrementally just come back to the M and the family?" I suspect that she ended things with the OM but not in the right way (i.e. write a letter of NC, change her phone #, etc.).
I mentioned to her on our call earlier this week that I want the letter of NC. I don't recall her exact response, but it was something along the lines of "ok if that is what you need."
Do I push for it this weekend? Or just let it sit for a while?
A boundary repeated is a boundary weakened, I always say.
Another "odd"exchange with my W...I sent her an email that I had sold some options in my company. I do this b/c I want to show her that we cannot have secrets and cannot hide money from each other. She responded back with "Great, let's use it to do something fun."
Here I am with my W "quasi pursuing" me and instead of being excited, I am more angry. I want her to just say she is sorry and show true remorse. Then we can do the fun things together to rebuild our R.
Hi Shodan
I think the answer is to resist any quasi-pursuit - because that looks like the 'can I incrementally come back into this R without truly acknowledging what has happened here?'
Shodan,
I like your emotional response to the whole "let's spend it on something fun" comment. It shows you are outraged. That's healthy in my opinion. Something fun with you? F*ck no
You chose the name Shodan for a reason. One of the early Okinawan masters once said, "The heart of a Karetka is open and free, it bears no one ill-well, but beware, it is the heart of a lion."
Maybe you should bank that money and do something fun with your next wife.
Time to put on your inner Samurai. ;-)
Theoden
Thank you everyone for your feedback.
Update from this weekend...my W came clean about everything, lots of apologizing and remorse. Wants to be 100% committed to our M and will do whatever it takes. We are seeing a MC tomorrow night. She told me she made a huge mistake and deserves more than 50% of the blame for where we are. Apparently she had a few bad nights with no sleep and finally hit rock bottom on Thursday. She prayed and asked God for guidance. It was then she decided that we have a good thing but we just need to work on it. Suffice to say, this weekend was full of a lot of long talks, some crying and lots of laughter.
We still have some issues to work through but I want to use the MC to guide us.
Shodan
Thats wonderful news!!
Good luck! That's AWESOME news.
Hi Shodan - I'm so pleased for you! Good luck with the MC, and really glad things are turning for you.
I read that it is really important to focus on the 'nasty' as well as the 'nice' stuff at this stage, and there is still lots of work to do for you both, I'm sure...
But there's been a turning point and that's great!
PRAISE GOD!! For there is nothing that He can't do!
That's awesome news, Shodan -- you deserve this opportunity.
I use that word advisedly. When I decided to be the manager for my then-9-year-old-son's little league team, I was tucking him in bed at night and he said "I'm glad you're my manager, Daddy -- now I can be a PITCHER!" I immediately corrected him, saying "No son, now you'll have the opportunity to pitch . . . what you do with that is up to you."
My prayer is that the two of you will be guided by wisdom, by humility, and will do the hard work necessary to heal your wounds, Shodan. Your family deserves your best effort.
Starsky
Update from this weekend...my W came clean about everything, lots of apologizing and remorse. Wants to be 100% committed to our M and will do whatever it takes.
And how did you answer this?
It's on the way towards the positive path, but definitely not there yet. It's not uncommon for there to be a number of false starts on the way to reconciliation. Don't be surprised if tomorrow she changes her mind. Be prepared. She will waffle back and forth for awhile.
Shodan,
That's great news!
I'd say, all the more reason to talk to Starsky, since he's been on the long road to reconciliation.
God's blessings on both of you.
Theoden
Thank you to everyone for your support and feedback. We are going to see a MC tonight (my W's idea). It was booked before she came to me to say that she wanted to commit to our M. Therefore, I want to use our time with the MC to work on our issues and get her help to guide us through the thorny parts. As a result, i have not discussed some of the sensitive issues with her. She knows what I want and I know what she wants. My goal is to have the MC help broker the conversation.
As I said to my W, I can guarantee that we will have some bad times but we will have a lot more good than bad. We cannot expect this to be smooth sailing, but with a lot of work, we can make this a great M.
This weekend, we came up with two mottos...one, be thankful for what we have. We have a great life, two great kids, we are married to a great person, we both have good jobs, we are happy people, we have fun together, etc. Two, don't stop the romance. We both agreed that we took each other for granted. We stopped romancing each other like we once did when we first met.
I will keep everyone posted on tonight's outcome from the MC session.
I think it's fine to have the MC help you negotiate this stuff. I'm trying to better understand what *your* short list of "what it will take" items is, so we can better help support you. Are you going to be asking for full transparency for example? Her to send OM a no-contact letter? Are you two agreeing to ongoing MCing?
The most common mistake I see betrayed spouses make at this CRUCIAL stage is to miss their moment of maximum leverage, they communicate fuzzy goals and boundaries, and they end up with fuzzy (at best) results.
Starsky
Amen to Starsky's post!
If you have the Divorce Remedy by MWD her chapter on healing from infidelity should prove helpful. Her advice to the unfaithful spouse is important.
When my wife supposedly broke off her affair with OM1, someone once said to me, make sure you don't crawl on your knees through glass -- that's her job. There was a brief honeymoon period (2 weeks), but in the end, she didn't ask for my forgiveness for the affair or think it was wrong AND she refused to divulge any details about it. In addition, she didn't want to go to Marriage Counseling. In most affair recovery material, complete transparency about the affair is necessary. Why? Because betrayed people feel like the weeks and months during and affair, their personal history was robbed and stolen -- their life was a lie and they need the facts to make sense of their own journey.
Again -- best of luck to you.
Theoden
Awesome news Sho!!!
I'm praying for wisdom as you slowly and cautiously move back into the M.
That is wonderful. I'm so happy for you, Shodan!
Fingers crossed and rooting for you!
How are things, Sho? I'm so happy to read of the latest developments!
Two, don't stop the romance. We both agreed that we took each other for granted. We stopped romancing each other like we once did when we first met.
THIS has been KEY during my own piecing journey, fwiw.
Can't wait to read more. You've worked so hard to get here. There's A LOT of hard work ahead ... bumps and turns ... mountains and valleys ...
But the journey of 1,000 miles begins with one, simple step, right?
Hooray!
Bumping.
Any updates Shodan?
Sorry for the delayed response. Lots going on.
High level...it has been a pretty great 10 days since my W came to meet saying she wanted to commit to our R and our M. She apologized for what she did and has continued to acknowledge her blame/responsibility for where our M is/was.
She said what got her back was that she was scared that she would lose me and our family. She had seen changes in me that over time were being seen as consistent and permanent. At first, she said that she thought that my changes were all BS and that I was just in it to win it. But over the weeks/months she began to believe in them. Even since our reconciliation, she has commented multiple times that the old Shodan would have been angry about X, would have reacted different to Y, etc.
We went to our first MC session on Tuesday. We are going back again after thanksgiving (my W and I are traveling this week and cannot go over Thanksgiving either). It was a good session. My W liked it and commented that she was very happy that we were doing this.
In terms of romance, last Saturday I bought her a single rose and put it on her car for her to see when she got out of yoga (she was with a friend who commented how romantic I was). I bought her some new lingerie. We have ended most nights talking over a glass of wine. My W booked a date for us this past Friday, which was great fun (drinks with friends followed by dinner afterwards). Saturday we went to yoga together and then to a movie (we saw Gone Girl...the book was better).
My 20,000 ft view of our situation:
- I need to back off a bit. for the first few days, my W was 100% into our R, being together, etc. But she also is/was someone who wants/wanted her space. I sense that she is not pulling back but perhaps feeling "smothered". So I am going to limit my texting, etc.
- Some days my W is super happy, others she is more withdrawn. Maybe she is going through withdrawal, maybe she is sad, maybe she is depressed. Who knows.
- while my W has apologized and taken responsibility for what led up to her asking for a D, she has not provided to me full transparency. She will show me things on her phone and does not act secretive about it, but I do not know the code.
Do I fully trust my W? I want to, but the truth is no, I do not.
I know the 2x4s will be:
- we are not "piecing" into she divulges everything, provides full transparency, etc.
- we are moving too fast..slow down
So why didn't I do that? Honestly, it is very hard to "push" away my W when she wanted to reconnect and recommit to the M. I did not want to make her think that I would never get past the A so why should she even try. And then once we got back into being a couple, it was very easy. And after the past 5-6 months of h*ll, it felt good to be wanted by someone again. To be told that I was sexy, attractive, a great person. It was nice to hear her comment about women looking at me. For example, I called her once and she said "I am so glad that you called".
I am meeting with my DB coach on Thursday.
No 2x4's from me, Sho. This is difficult stuff, and I fully understand your reluctance to "spook the squirrel when she's finally eating out of your hand." I made some of the same mistakes (and they are mistakes, imho).
I do think you're "piecing," because you are both committed to working on the marriage. There are just ways to piece that protect you better than others, and what I was trying to get you to consider when you last posted was that THAT was your moment of maximum leverage.
Is your wife open to answering any questions that you have? And how truthful has she been (from what you know, and that she doesn't KNOW that you know) in her responses to you?
Reconciliation ("piecing") is, fully, 5-10x more difficult than DBing/affair-busting. It's not for the feint of heart! But if you two can pull it off, the rewards are ohhhhh so worth it.
Starsky
Is my W open to answering any questions that I have? Yes, except she is not super forthcoming with the details.
How truthful has she been? Pretty truthful although she still insists that her A with the OM was an EA and not a PA. Ironically, she said that the EA is far worse since for women it is all about the emotional connection anyway.
Has she cut off all tie with the OM?...I don't know honestly. I am pretty sure she has not seen him in weeks and probably stopped the PA weeks before that. She told me 10 days ago that it had been two weeks since she last spoke with him.
Ultimately, my W is not where I want her to be. I really don't need all of the details and do not need her to admit that she had a PA. What I need is to know what she has cut him out of her life completely.
Not sure how you're going to do that if she's not being openly transparent with you, but thanks for the clarifications.
Starsky
What I need is to know what she has cut him out of her life completely.
Ask for what you want.
Dang, Sho.
I know how hard it is, but I'm totally in agreement with Starsky and Drew here. And I'm saying that as a person who is seven months into the (sometimes unbearably) hard work of "piecing."
In the beginning stages of piecing, in my own experience anyway, we just feel so happy we are getting *anywhere* with with our WAS. Their "crumbs" feel pretty good. And we're willing to settle for those scraps.
But those great feelings of having our spouses back are actually quite (and quickly) fleeting. My H and I were just in another argument last night ... and the night before ... about the A. 7 months later.
As LBSs during "DBing/A-busting," we learn to put our own needs on the back-burner, I think. We learn to be more validating, more understanding, more forgiving. But we are, after all, only HUMAN. We hurt. We need answers. Some of us need more (or fewer) than others. I, like you, didn't feel I needed answers. But all of a sudden, 7 months later (quickly approaching our anti-versary, which was five days before BD), I feel I need a few answers every now and again. And H - who was very forthcoming with information in the beginning - is now wanting us to "just move on." I sent him some articles last night; wish I could tell you the website, but I see these days that isn't accepted here. H texted me this morning, admitting that every time I bring the A up now, it feels I'm "pulling the rug off of everything he keeps trying to sweep under it."
It's painful. It's BRUTAL. For BOTH of us.
But I've never known - or read of - a relationship that successfully reconciles until and unless the offending partner fully admits his/her wrongdoings and fully commits to honestly and openly answering questions about the A for as long as the offended partner needs to ask them.
This isn't about punishment. It's about us TRYING to figure out what went wrong and led to the A. It's about us NOT being treated like "ignorant" children - or mushrooms (kept in the dark and fed sh!t) - by our spouses who cheated on us.
We DESERVE to have answers to our questions. You've worked hard for those answers. You've stayed true. You've stayed loyal. You have WORKED for your W and for your M. You deserve to get what you want now. You deserve to get what you NEED to move forward. Period.
Don't sell yourself short. Don't accept less than what you need now. If you do? It will come back to you in a few months ... or a few years.
Do the hard work NOW. And your W should be willing to work even harder than YOU. THAT is the very.first.sign of a successful reconciliation-in-the-making.
Shodan,
I am happy for the positive turn this relationship is taking.
My prayers are with you
No 2 X 4's from me either.
A few things come to mind...
First....Listen very, very, closely to what
Starsky and
Train are saying to you now. This is hard-won advice. There is a delicate balance between making the road home smooth, and not pursuing false reconciliation.
At this time you have the most leverage. Meaning, the honeymoon phase of coming back together is short-lived and a few months down the line when you will need to more clarity from your wife, she may be too exhausted to provide it for you.
There are plenty of excellent articles on what REAL reconciliation looks like. I can't point you to any because of board policies, but the basic point is that now is the time for your wife to work HARDER than you have been. Real reconciliation and remorse for an affair leads to: transparency, HONESTY, and a willingness to bend over backwards and repeat the same story to the cheated-on spouse as many times as they need to hear it. Real reconciliation books the marriage counselor appointment without being asked by the betrayed spouse. Real reconciliation tell all the gory details so that the betrayed spouse can make sense of their pain. n
You said that you don't need your wife to admit she had a PA with the OM. Really? I appreciate you seemingly being "bigger" than your wife on this one, but in the end this will bite you in the rear end. She can have an affair, lie about it and purse REAL reconciliation with you?
You said...
How truthful has she been? Pretty truthful although she still insists that her A with the OM was an EA and not a PA. Ironically, she said that the EA is far worse since for women it is all about the emotional connection anyway.
Can you accept her lying about it to your face? This behavior is called Gaslighting. This is not a sign of true, full reconciliation yet. I think it's something you need to talk about with your marriage counselor. Can you trust someone who is lying to you? In some cultures, people are allowed to lie in order to save face. Sort of, "We both know your lying, so I'm going to pretend to believe your lie so we can maintain this relationship".
It seems what turned your wife around are your changes. That's really amazing work on your part. Well done. She has chosen the better option - you. But is your continued good behavior all that will keep her in the marriage? This means you can't really backslide or slip-up. This may turn into situation where there's no grace for you in this marriage. It's all law-keeping on your part to appease the goddess. What if you slip up? What if you do something to annoy her? The question is, will she eventually dig deep and realize that adultery and lying about it to your husband are not productive ways to handle your marriage problems?
I don't think any of this happens overnight or quickly, but I think you might want to consider maintaining some healthy boundaries and think through what your piecing looks like.
I also want to say you have worked very hard for this and I'm really happy for the turn-around in your wife.
--Theoden
Shodan,
I am happy for the positive turn this relationship is taking.
My prayers are with you
No 2 X 4's from me either.
A few things come to mind...
First....Listen very, very, closely to what
Starsky and
Train are saying to you now. This is hard-won advice. There is a delicate balance between making the road home smooth, and not pursuing false reconciliation.
At this time you have the most leverage. Meaning, the honeymoon phase of coming back together is short-lived and a few months down the line when you will need to more clarity from your wife, she may be too exhausted to provide it for you.
There are plenty of excellent articles on what REAL reconciliation looks like. I can't point you to any because of board policies, but the basic point is that now is the time for your wife to work HARDER than you have been. Real reconciliation and remorse for an affair leads to: transparency, HONESTY, and a willingness to bend over backwards and repeat the same story to the cheated-on spouse as many times as they need to hear it. Real reconciliation books the marriage counselor appointment without being asked by the betrayed spouse. Real reconciliation tell all the gory details so that the betrayed spouse can make sense of their pain. n
You said that you don't need your wife to admit she had a PA with the OM. Really? I appreciate you seemingly being "bigger" than your wife on this one, but in the end this will bite you in the rear end. She can have an affair, lie about it and purse REAL reconciliation with you?
You said...
How truthful has she been? Pretty truthful although she still insists that her A with the OM was an EA and not a PA. Ironically, she said that the EA is far worse since for women it is all about the emotional connection anyway.
Can you accept her lying about it to your face? This behavior is called Gaslighting. This is not a sign of true, full reconciliation yet. I think it's something you need to talk about with your marriage counselor. Can you trust someone who is lying to you? In some cultures, people are allowed to lie in order to save face. Sort of, "We both know your lying, so I'm going to pretend to believe your lie so we can maintain this relationship".
It seems what turned your wife around are your changes. That's really amazing work on your part. Well done. She has chosen the better option - you. But is your continued good behavior all that will keep her in the marriage? This means you can't really backslide or slip-up. This may turn into situation where there's no grace for you in this marriage. It's all law-keeping on your part to appease the goddess. What if you slip up? What if you do something to annoy her? The question is, will she eventually dig deep and realize that adultery and lying about it to your husband are not productive ways to handle your marriage problems?
I don't think any of this happens overnight or quickly, but I think you might want to consider maintaining some healthy boundaries and think through what your piecing looks like.
I also want to say you have worked very hard for this and I'm really happy for the turn-around in your wife.
--Theoden
Much wisdom ^^^
Shodan,
Here are some thoughts that came to me this morning about your sitch.
1. By not letting her know you "know" she had a PA, you are robbing her of the opportunity to really come clean, be honest/open and really address her behavior patterns. Letting her gaslight you is a dis-service to her growth and the health of your marriage. It's like she needs major surgery by you are using a band-aid to treat the problem.
2. You have been doing your own work, and that's great. But, for the marriage to succeed and not depend on you future, flawless execution of you GAL and 180's your wife will need to do her part. Marriage is a 2 person proposition. DB-in is largely a solo performance, which you have passed with flying colors. Piecing, however, is a partnership.
3. Paving too-smooth a road sends a certain message to your wife: you can cheat, lie to me, gaslight me, throw me emotional crumbs and as a result, you will get a new and improved husband. It reinforces her sense of entitlement that all cheaters seem to have.
4. I think you need to address this with your marriage counselor in a private session.
5. What's preventing you from asking for honesty and transparency from your wife in the piecing process? Is it fear that she will back away? Fear that all your hard work will be for naught? Do you want your reconciliation to be driven by fear? It's nice to be wanted again and to have some relief. However, building a strong foundation may mean you need to dig deeper into the soil to establish a more long-lasting solution.
6. I am only speaking from my own experience and failure to demand remorse and transparency when I was piecing. In the end, my "changes" didn't stick and I never really trusted my wife who felt that having an affair was morally acceptable. That means we both ended up quitting on the marriage after piecing. It could be that if I completely let go of my need for her to experience remorse and actually ask for my forgiveness, then our marriage might have lasted. Also I would have to have kept my needs and demands small. I wasn't capable of being super-Theoden who gives all, forgives all, trusts always in spite of the evidence.
7. Perhaps making demands during piecing reveals who the cheater really is. Give them the opportunity to come clean and repent. Or give them the opportunity to clearly remain entitled.
Theoden
3. Paving too-smooth a road sends a certain message to your wife: you can cheat, lie to me, gaslight me, throw me emotional crumbs and as a result, you will get a new and improved husband. It reinforces her sense of entitlement that all cheaters seem to have.
That entire post was pure gold, but #3 is especially insightful. It's one of the toughest balancing acts in all of DBing, in my opinion.
Overall, it's imperative to FULLY realize that the attitude and skills required for successful piecing are not only DIFFERENT than those required for successful DBing . . . many of them are precisely OPPOSITE.
Starsky
I'm speechless over here. FANTASTIC posts, Starsky and Theoden!
Good, good stuff there, Sho. I really hope you dig deep on this and take these words of caution and wisdom to heart.
Starsky said:
Overall, it's imperative to FULLY realize that the attitude and skills required for successful piecing are not only DIFFERENT than those required for successful DBing . . . many of them are precisely OPPOSITE.
This is important to consider and an excellent point. DB-ing is partly to create doubt in the WAS or cheater's mind. It's a tough endeavor. A solo act. You are doing GAL and 180's to become your best self (in an ideal world) but in reality you are really doing it to save your marriage. Some of those activities you'll keep, some will slough off. Now that you are both moving towards each other, it's time to change from a solo to a couples dance. Some moves are the same, but some need to change.
Previously you put your own needs on the shelf. You forgave, validated, loved unconditionally and made yourself
smaller.
One GAL you can do is actually start
showing up in your own life and marriage. State your needs, wants. Create some healthy, loving, boundaries. ASK for what you want. This is not about being a jerk, it's about being a centered, actualized, confident man. This may be bumpy at first, but in the long run it will create MORE attraction that just being an emotional chameleon (shifting in response to your wife). According to "Nice Guy" theory, our attempts to fix everything and not show our weaknesses, needs or problems make us a teflon human. Nothing sticks to us. It's our rough edges that make us "sticky" and love-able. And it's a self-confident person who can allow themselves to be vulnerable and show their warts that is love-able AS THEY ARE. Being Super-Shodan means you never show weakness, never ask for what you want, and in the end, never become vulnerable, which is the key to intimacy. If you continue DB and 180
only as you have been, you are only trying to control an outcome, and not really engaging in a relationship. Your wife will like it at first, but sooner or later, she'll sense you are only "handling" her and are not being genuine.
So instead of 1. Just keeping up the self-effacing GAL activities that were DB-focused, or 2. Get exhausted and drop all of them, try, instead to, 3. Take up some new ones, that actually make you more real, visible and healthy in relationships.
It's been said that no woman believes that a man will stand up
for her, until he's shown that he can stand up
to her. Part of standing up to her, is learning to stand up for yourself. She can't trust a nice-guy chameleon. You can't trust someone who lies to you about her infidelity. So you BOTH have some work to do.
You can do this.
--Theoden
Sorry, Theo -- one "4 Whistles" per day, per customer. Void where prohibited.
Sorry, Theo -- one "4 Whistles" per day, per customer. Void where prohibited.
Thanks...many more kudos to you, Starsky.
Kudos to Train for her really insightful post.
We raise our glass to you Shodan! You are doing the hardest and most important thing of all: saving your family.
--Theoden
I'm still just over here, on my feet, doing the slow clap.
This is such a precious perspective for ALL of us here. Heck, for anyone who's married!!
Theoden, my man! Where have you BEEN all my life?! You and Starsky are, like, my long-lost brothas from anotha motha.
But seriously, Sho. You DO have this. You've come too far to give up and give in now. Make this STICK. You have this one opportunity. What Theoden (and Starsky all along) has detailed for you is a way to increase the odds of creating sustainable change in your M. "Sustainable" being the key word.
Wow. Incredible words of wisdom. Thanks for that, guys; I gleaned some great nuggets of golden information - and some affirmations/validations - in these posts, myself.
So give us your thoughts, Sho. Where ya at? Let us hear from you.
Train,
Thanks for the kind words. You rock! Dunno why I've been drawn back here. I was active 2007-2008 a lot. My marriage didn't make it. Mostly because I made the road back too smooth and didn't lay down boundaries. I tried the un-sustainable super-Theoden DB act and I couldn't keep it up. What I didn't do is man up and step into my own life. Most of my GAL and 180's were just ways to stop my wife from trying to end the marriage. I never actually sat down and asked, "Who am I, what do I want?" Mostly I should have laid down boundaries much earlier. I think it would have shown my wife to be an entitled cheater and I could have had clarity YEARS earlier.
Shodan -- Train makes a GREAT point. The goal is to create SUSTAINABLE change in your marriage. That takes 2 people to do. DB-ing is all about getting you THIS point. It doesn't really cover the piecing part so much. I think MWD should write a book on how to piece AFTER an affair. She says straight out that healing after an affair is heavily dependent on the cheating spouse being honest, open and transparent.
--Theoden
Can someone elaborate on #3...paving the road home....
I think I made it too easy too and now here we are again
lifehostgothard2,
It's what you said in your thread.
Divorce-Busting gets them to think twice. It puts us into a mode of working on ourselves, improving, making little or no demands, etc. It's important at first, but it's not going to carry the marriage forward.
Piecing a marriage together requires
hard work on the part of the cheater/walk-away-spouse. Often, we are so happy that our spouses are back that we don't require them to do the real work.
An affair is a clear demonstration that they lack a moral compass. They need to experience and SHOW remorse. They need to quit. drinking. They need to be honest and forthcoming about all details of the affair. They need to stop all contact with the OM or OW. They need to take the
initiative in marriage counseling. They need to show humility NOT entitlement.
By making it too easy on them we are robbing them of the opportunity for them to do their own work. It prevents them from transforming. It stunts their ability to grow a conscience.
By making it too easy on them, it makes the reconciliation easy and cheap for them, re-enforcing their sense of entitlement. A reconciliation that's costly for them (meaning it requires they put some skin in the game) makes them value their spouse more and the marriage more. We always value what is hard-won.
Of course, there's the possibility that making serious demands of the WAS once they want to return may turn them off. That's what we all were afraid of. I think, in retrospect, requiring them to do the hard work is really, in some sense, a litmus test. If they balk at doing the work, if they don't want to go to counseling, if they refuse to give details about the affair, if they don't really show remorse, then perhaps they are the kind of people who either CAN'T or DON'T WANT TO grow a conscience. It may save you time. My wife flat our refused to ask my forgiveness for the affair because she felt it wasn't wrong and she refused to discuss it in our marriage counseling. That was a red flag. I should have set a hard line then. If you don't want to talk about the affair in counseling, then we can't really move forward. Had she refused, I should have filed. I would have saved years of pain and suffering. Asking them to do the work is very clarifying. They either do it, or show themselves to be flaming pieces of sh*t. ;-)"
Shosdan -- read her thread in Newcomers:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2487416#Post2487416Theoden
We always value what is hard-won.
this is SO true. ^^^
Theoden,
I was just reading your posts above and I think they spell out the mindset perfectly.
I am at the point of deciding what I want from any R going forward, and wrapping my head around the fact that if I stick to my guns on certain issues, my H may well follow through with D rather than rise to the challenge of being the man I need him to be.
And although that thought frightens me a bit because it will force huge changes in my life, I know that it's for the best.
I would rather that he lets me know off the bat that he's not really invested in making lasting changes, than steal more years from my life in a half-life marriage built on a shaky foundation.
The issues need to be identified, discussed, a plan needs to be in place to solve both existing problems and deal with future conflicts.
Historically, my H has balked at exactly this type of thing; planning, rules, doing things which don't "feel natural". It is a lot to expect him to change at this point in his life.
However, it's what I want, and I now know how important it is to me and my well-being and contentment in a M. (Notice I did not say "Happiness". That's a different thing.)
Sorry for the hijack, Sho---it's just that this is where I'm getting to in my sitch and Theo's words ring true.
Very much a page from the wise Mr. Starsky, if you ask me.
--(G)GGG
GoatGal,
It was Starsky's clear voice on boundaries and building attraction through displaying strength that helped me make sense of my own failed piecing attempts.
Making demands that they "do the work" is very scary, but having a shaky marriage with a replay of affair, etc is far scarier.
Theoden
DB-ing is all about getting you THIS point. It doesn't really cover the piecing part so much.
Precisely.
Sho, I don't mean to beat a dead horse here. I think the reason I'm so passionate about this particular part of the journey is because I didn't do it right in 2005/06. I did EXACTLY what Theoden detailed in his post: I took DBing and applied it to piecing. I was happy to have my H back. I did all the heavy-lifting by myself. I avoided. I ignored. I suffered largely in silence. H said he was sorry, sure. But I didn't, as Theoden says, "step into my own life." I let a lot slide; I didn't want to lose my H again. I thought talking about the A was wrong (again, still applying the DB rules to piecing, even though I've now learned - through ANOTHER A, and ANOTHER round of piecing - that the rules are completely different in piecing).
You won't find a lot of people posting in the Piecing forum here. That's why I stayed in Infidelity. There's not a whole lot that is addressed about the piecing process, which is unfortunate. There's some information in other books and on other websites, though.
Mostly, though, we have the benefit of talking with others who have successfully pieced their Ms back together, like Starsky. And then there's me: someone who failed Piecing Round One and is in the middle of Round Two. And doing it VASTLY different this time. In fact, I question everything I'm saying and doing this time because it feels I'm doing it all wrong. I'm still having bouts of anger and temper-tantrums. I'm sending my H articles that explain why everything can seem great between us and then - BOOM - something knocks me to my knees and sends me into crying, screaming hysterics. I've had to apologize a lot. He's had to apologize a lot. I've watched and listened as he paced our backyard, crying and moaning with sorrow as I sat, sobbing and hysterical on my back patio steps. He's had to answer hard and pointed questions. And he's done it, in spite of the fact that he feels immense guilt and shame and hurt, too. I keep digging it up, it seems, right when he feels we are doing better.
This is so hard. It's gut-wrenching. Heart-breaking.
I don't want to punish him. But when he agreed to fix our M, he agreed to walk with me down this road. And to do whatever it takes - however long it takes - to help me through it. In addition to alllll of that, we are working on our love. We are working to re-learn what our needs are - and how to meet each other's needs. AND we are working on improvements to our individual selves.
Again, a lot of work. A LOT of HARD work ...
If my H hadn't fully owned-up to everything - if he wasn't apologetic and going wayyyyy out of his way to comfort me and understand me and love me through all this - I don't think we would be here. It starts with them acknowledging everything you need them to acknowledge. For all the many reasons Theoden has detailed.
I just want to stress how important I think it is that this part of your journey is executed perfectly. It's SO important. It's indicative of how the road will unfold before you as you piece your M back together. Honesty and full disclosure - or at least a WILLINGNESS to fully disclose - is of paramount importance. Maybe you don't need all the information. Cool. She should still be willing to provide it. Period. If she's not? Then she's not ready for the heavy-lifting of true piecing. That's just my opinion.
To chime in a bit, Sho, I'd like to offer some resources that I think are valuable in the piecing process. Please do check out Dear Peggy website.
They are chock full of information on what happens after the affair. In my mind, they go hand-in-hand with DBing after the spouses reconcile after an A ends. Like Train, I do feel that DBing focuses primarily on busting the affair and outlasting the OM/OW, but does not really lay out the nuts and bolts of reconciliation & recovering from an A.
Bottom line, DBing really DOES saves marriages and YOU. For that, I will always be eternally grateful to MWD for writing the book and being the biggest advocate for marriages.
Maybe you don't need all the information. Cool. She should still be willing to provide it. Period. If she's not? Then she's not ready for the heavy-lifting of true piecing. That's just my opinion.
It's also been my observation and experience.
Wasn't sure if we could mention other sites. But Wonka, that one (thanks to your referral) has been great for me during the last seven months. Those are also the articles I've sent H.
Shodan, how about an update? Been thinking about you, and my puppy sense was tingling, which is NEVER good . . .
Starsky
What Starsky said ...
Update, please, sho??
Sho, How was Thanksgiving?
All
Thank you for the flood of feedback, input and advice. All golden. We were on vacation for a week so I decided to just cool it with the forum for the week and focus on my family.
Where are we? We are in a good place. Very good. I had a bad day during our vacation and confronted my W about it. I told her there will be good days and bad days. On the bad days, I will need her help and that that day was one of those days. I told her that I will need her reassurances and will need her to answer questions for me. I told her that I will be a little needy on those days.
We have talked more and more about what happened and some of the details, but also are focusing on us and the changes that we both need to make. We have been spending a lot of time together and are having fun. Lots of "I love yous", holding hands when walking, frequent calls/texts, etc. We also have ML a lot. I probably jumped the gun on this, but our sexual connection was our strength. We lost it for a while there, spurred by our lack of emotional connection. We are getting both the emotional and physical connection back.
Has she divulged everything? No. I am planning to address this subject during our next MC session. I spoke with my DB coach last week before I went on vacation and updated her on everything. She commented that while we would like to see the WAS come clean right away, it does not always work that way. She said to focus on the good times and to allow the MC sessions to chip away at the "elephant in the room."
There are some other comments that I want to address, but I will write a separate post later this week.
Shodan,
Great to hear things are going well!
I think that's a good strategy, let the MC "chip away" at the elephant in the room.
--Theoden
Things had been going well until last week. Now my W seems more distant. Not as into "us". I probably just need to back off but this is hard.
Talk to her about it. Be open and tell her you are getting a "distant" vibe from her. Piecing isn't the same advice as db'ing......
Train?! Can you help out here if your reading?
I did. She said she was feeling a lot of pressure from me. I must have been coming on too strong. She said she feels like she does not have a moment to herself and is feeling suffocated. Clearly I went too fast.
My plan is to back off.
Talk to her about it. Be open and tell her you are getting a "distant" vibe from her. Piecing isn't the same advice as db'ing......
Train?! Can you help out here if your reading?
I echo this, Sho. Piecing is HARD, and requires a TON of communication. Try non-accusatory language. "When you do _____, it makes me feel ______" kind of stuff.
And TALK TO US, bro. We really do care about you, and are rooting for you two to make it!!
Starsky
Sho, Sorry that your Sitch "cooled" down a bit.
It will turn around I hope and like Starsky and Twinmom said Communication is the key. Keep that part going and hopefully things will "heat" up again.
Hang in there and I also am rooting for you two. The more good stories the better it makes me feel about my own S.
Thank you. I think I am being too accusatory in my tone. I have been asking her for more than she seems to want to give right now. I want everything to be great all of the time and I know that is never the case. I also have been reading in to what she says and does, which has caused me to ask her what is going on. My W is someone who wants alone time. But given what happened, my mind starts racing when this happens.
So my advice to myself is to calm down and back off a bit. My actions and words are putting pressure on her, which is causing her to back off a bit.
It is great that you see this and are able to follow your own advice.
Sometimes I have a problem with following my own advice. I know it is probably the right thing to do but is so very tough at some points
This is one of the main reasons I'm such a nazi about transparency. Because without it, a betrayed spouse's mind will inevitably wander to the worst possible place.
Data builds confidence and trust.
Starsky
Your best time to negotiate in any deal is BEFORE the sale is complete.
In other words.. when she wanted to work things out was probably going to be your best shot at getting true transparency because you had some leverage.
It looks like this..
W. I have decided I made a big mistake and love you and want to do anything to make this work..
YOU. Well, I too would like to make this work, but I have some conditions that are not negotiable before I am willing to try..
1. No contact ever
2. No contact letter that I approve
3. Willingness to answer any and all questions I have honestly. Complete and total honesty no matter how much it hurts.
4 Access to all passwords, etc....
5. Marriage counseling...
6. etc. etc....
She then gets to disagree or not.. You have left her with a decision to make when she wants it the most..(new car smell)
(See.. no pressure.. take it or leave it in that example)(Her free choice to make)
Now that you are already piecing you have lost that leverage.
That's like trying to take a new car back to the dealer you have driven for a month and wanting to negotiate a better price with some upgrades too...
Now it will all be seen as pressure, where as in the beginning it would look like strength... (See the difference?)
Your best options now are to just tell her that you would PREFER transparency, but you aren't going to pressure her or ask her anymore..... It's too late to negotiate or pressure or ask over and over because now it's pressure and coming across as weakness and low self esteem and pursuit(which you are discovering). You may as well just realize that you can also have a great reconciliation without it. Many, many others have. It isn't impossible.... So you have that option too.. Just let it go and move forward....
OR OPTION 2
Back off to the point that you tell her that you have done some thinking and this just isn't going to work for you because you have now realized that you want total transparency and she isn't willing or able to give it and since she can't that maybe it would be best to divorce..
Now THAT will take the pressure off and if she really wants to reconcile, put you back in a negotiation state...
I agree and since my W will not agree to full transparency, I find myself slipping back into DBing. I reviewed some of the advice from my DB coach from a month ago and it seems to apply still in my situation, which is frustrating.
Shodan,
Random thoughts:
1. Perhaps you still aren't as much in "piecing" as you thought you were, and you're more in Divorce Busting. Your wife's need for space and her lack of transparency might be clues.
2. It's natural for you to have made saving your marriage (and, therefore, your wife) and idol. We all were there. It seems the ONLY thing that matters is getting your marriage back in order. Of course no human being can survive being someone else's god or goddess. It's suffocates them while it turns you into servile priest trying to appease their anger and predict their every desire.
3. This tells me you haven't really been Getting a Life for yourself, you've just been your changing behavior to win your wife back. Because if you actually have a life, aside from saving you marriage, you wouldn't putting so much pressure on your wife. Does that make sense? Your are acting like you are footnote in your wife's life and you've been desperately trying to re-write yourself into her story. Do you have your own story? Who ARE you? What are you non-negotiables? She's tired of being the center of your life. Write your own story, then you can weave your stories together.
4. In one of my previous posts I talked about being a emotional chameleon. It works for a very short while. But in some way you lose yourself. You end up becoming a person doing GAL's and 180's in order to control the outcome of your wife's investment in the marriage. That's less than your best self. She senses you aren't your "real" self. You are someone walking on eggshells always adjusting to her every move trying to get her to re-commit.
5. Having said this, I realize at this stage in your situation it's super-hard to find yourself, and stop pursuing your wife. Here are 2 things maybe you can do. For a while, stop talking about "your relationship" except in the marriage counselor's office. It's a safe place and it gives you some room. If Karate was not a good thing for you or your marriage, perhaps take up something else, with less of a time suck, that gets you out of your own head. This sounds silly, but take care of yourself. Ask yourself, "What does Shodan want?"
Best of luck,
Theoden
Hi Starsky
I have heard many good things about you and your advice.
See my thread on walk away spouse. I am in limbo and going freaking crazy. I feel I have lost my wife forever although she does not want me to file and says she is not ready or reconcilliation "yet". These two comments give me hope or just prove I am a nut case and can't let go.
I have done all the begging, pleading, etc... to no avail. I am now in the dark phase which I am skeptical about success. How long is a reasosnable time to wait this out? My wife left in Oct 2014 (at my suggestion) and now its Dec 2014.
Any advice for a crazy impatient LBS?
Theoden
Thank you for your comments. I agree, we are probably not in piecing. I was doing a pretty good job of GALing/detaching until early November when my W came to me to say that she wanted to commit to us. Since then, I have been hyper focused on our M and our R. As a result, I am not detached. I have continued with some of my GAL activities but not all of them.
I have explained to my W how sometimes I need her help, support and reassurances. Unfortunately, i think this need of mine has been received by her as suffocating. She commented that she cannot know when I might need support from her and when something she does (or does not do) may set off these feelings in her.
The past few nights I was traveling for work. While I had some depressing feelings from time to time, I realized that I can move on in my life without my W. I went out at night with colleagues and had a good time. I spoke with some women from my company and felt like I had some "game". If it were not for my kiddos, I would pick up and move to another city and start over. I would get far away from this whole situation. I love my W and want my M to work with her, but sometimes I am just exhausted from the work required. Being here and in the same house makes it very hard to detach from her. It is hard to "start over" as Shodan, the individual, when we have kids that require and deserve our love, attention and help.
I sense that my W is struggling with the same issues. Logically, she wants our M to work. We have two kids, have been together for 18 yrs, the sex is great, we are great friends, et. Emotionally, she is not sure it can or not sure of her feelings for me. She still carries around a lot of resentment about things that happened in the past (e.g., the lack of attention that I paid to her). I also know she is SUPER busy at work and under a ton of pressure. Therefore any pressure from me just pushes her away. I truly believe that if she quit her job and we moved to another city, we could put all of this behind us. Other times, I just want to quit my job and go backpack for 1-2 months to go find myself. Detach from this situation. But I cannot do that with my kids. I love them too much.
It sounds like she wasn't really ready, Shodan. I'm sorry.
Starsky
When you were piecing with your W how long before her feelings came back? Were there times when you felt like it was one step forward, two steps back?
Shodan
It took a good 3-6 months, Sho. A little quicker than that for the sexual connection (ironically, since that's always been our toughest issue), but the deeper emotional bond took several months and REALLY took about two years to fully get back to where it should be . . . and then better.
I think our situation was different than yours in that I pretty much vanquished the affair and pacified the town before I sought to negotiate a peace accord and then live under it, LOL. Your approach has been much more "blended" I think.
Starsky
Starsky, What do you mean by "pacified the town"?
Just my (same ol') opinion:
A woman is not attracted to a pushover or a "pusher." If a woman is torn and unhappy, she will keep what's comfortable on a hook. Just to be "safe."
I won't beat a dead horse here. All my previous "advice" stands.
Sho, I believe in you. I have since Day One. We all do.
Time to start believing in yourself. Re-read all the great advice you've been given.
Sometimes we have to hit a brick wall before all the previously-provided wisdom makes sense. We want your M to work. But all the best advice has already been given to you, bro. Go back through your threads. Read and really absorb the nuggets of wisdom you already have.
Hang in there. But do more than hang.
You have everything you need.
Starsky, What do you mean by "pacified the town"?
Totally annililated the affair, took a hardline approach with my wife legally, financially and emotionally, and basically broke her.
The guy who used to mentor me here had a tag line that read "Affairs are caused by poor boundaries and resentment, and fueled by entitlement."
I believe you have to really break that entitlement streak, and the wayward spouse has to sort of "hit bottom" and really get to that "OK, what's it going to take?" stage before the incredibly hard work of piecing can begin. I've never felt Shodan's wife ever reached that point. I could be wrong.
Starsky
I agree that my W has not reached rock bottom. She definitely is/was close a month ago, hence her change in attitude, actions and words. I am not sure what has kept my W from full annihilating the A. My IC and my DB coach have asked me to focus on the positive changes since June of this year. My W and I have come a long way.
I am going to raise this issue with our MC later this week. I hope that our MC can help bridge a path forward.
Shodan,
You can't force closeness or affection.
I dunno, pretend your Clint Eastwood -- cool, self-confident, in control. ;-) She either gets on the Shodan train or she doesn't. Either way, you'll be OK. I think she might be more attracted to that than someone who's whole world revolves around HER.
Don't hang on her every word or NEED her assurances and affection now. That's kind of weak and unattractive.
Talk to your counselor, ALONE, about how and when to address the elephant in the room (the affair she's denying).
If not Client Eastwood, some other character you admire who id strong, solid, centered and DANGEROUS.
Be the true Karaetka -- open-hearted, without malice, but not safe. Be like Aslan in Naria -- good but NOT SAFE.
-Theoden
^ I like this
Shodan - what were you like when you and Mrs. Sho first started dating? If you step into her brain what are the answers to these questions: How did she perceive you? What things about you and your life at that time attracted her to you?
There was obviously attraction there at some point. If you can revive those parts of yourself now, do you think she will take notice?
Thanks for the continued feedback and advice. My W was traveling earlier this week, so I limited my interactions with her. But she called/texted a bit and made me aware of her itinerary. When she got home, i was bit aloof. For example, I did not walk up to give her a kiss. I was just super positive and happy. She came to me to give me a kiss. The next day she again was pretty good keeping me updated on her day and had a glass of wine waiting for me when I got home. We hung out, talked and then ML.
net/net...she is being more transparent but not where i would like her to be. She did comment that she may not need to travel for another four weeks, which will be great for us.
I plan to raise the trust issue during our MC session tomorrow. I hope our MC can help us bridge this gap. Conversely, I can continue down this path of GAL/being confident and hope that eventually she comes clean/is more transparent.
How was I when we first met...I was confident, strong, a bit arrogant
but also showed a sweet and sensitive side. I am trying to be that now, which I am doing with some success. How does my W perceive m? Well she will tell me when I look cute/hot (to use her words), when I smell nice, when I do something that she likes, when I am funny, when she feels lucky to be married to me (her words again), etc.
Sho, I have pretty much followed your situation from the very beginning. I don't post advice very often anywhere on these boards. I can honestly say that from the very start I had a feeling you would get another shot with your W. I strongly feel that getting to full transparency with your W is a must. Mostly for your sake. That was a deal breaker for me and I know that things would have never worked between W and I without it.
Its not the going through her stuff, its knowing that its open for me to look at if I wanted to. The trust factor is very important during this phase, without it I don't see you getting past this point. Where you are in this long fight right now was by far the hardest point for me when I was in your shoes. Its so easy to have those thoughts creep into your head causing you to act in a way that is harmful to getting where you need to be.
If she really is dedicated to giving your M a shot, full transparency should not be too much to ask. The way I see it, if she truly is remorseful, it should have been offered up by HER to help fix this.
I strongly feel that getting to full transparency with your W is a must. Mostly for your sake. That was a deal breaker for me and I know that things would have never worked between W and I without it.
Its not the going through her stuff, its knowing that its open for me to look at if I wanted to. The trust factor is very important during this phase, without it I don't see you getting past this point. Where you are in this long fight right now was by far the hardest point for me when I was in your shoes. Its so easy to have those thoughts creep into your head causing you to act in a way that is harmful to getting where you need to be.
If she really is dedicated to giving your M a shot, full transparency should not be too much to ask. The way I see it, if she truly is remorseful, it should have been offered up by HER to help fix this.
.
Starsky
Indigo/Starsky...thank you for your feedback.
We went to MC today and very quickly got into the trust issues. I played a good middle ground, validating my W's feelings and everything that she has said to date and said during the session. The MC said we need to figure out the trust issue or our M will not survive. The MC gave me a lot of time to tell my W how hurt I was by her actions, why I feel the way that I do and why I need to know (at a minimum) that things are over with the OM.
My W swore that things were done with him and cried and apologized for hurting me. She then tried to explain why she has struggled with doing the transparency stuff. In her words, it has nothing to do with the OM. She is committed to our M and wants it to work. But she has been struggling for years with my control issues. Note, she told me about these issues this past summer and most were unknown to me but I have been working on them since. A lot of her issues also are her own issues, meaning she never voiced her opinion about issues but then would hold it against me.
I know you will say that this is the broken record of all WAWs. But I could sense today we made a small break through.
The MC also explained to my W what I am going through. Specifically, that the trauma that I (and many of you) went through has caused me to have PTSD. One minute I am fine, the next minute I am in pain, sad, emotional, etc. I think this may have been the first time that my W heard from someone about how the LBS feels. My W has not read a single article or book on this (not her style). So until now, I think she still has focused on her feelings, while recognizing my feelings. After the session, she had a much better sense for my needs and of my feelings.
Thanks again to everyone for the help.
Glad for your breakthrough with your W shodan. Did she agree to transparency though?
Shodan,
Glad to hear it.
I think keeping the discussions about your marriage to the "safe" zone of your counselors office will help.
I suggest you see you counselor alone to reveal your concerns, mostly that your wife is denying she had an affair (emotional AND physical). Most marriage counselors will have 1-on-1 's occasionally with each spouse.
--Theoden
After the MC session and a talk we had later that night, I finally believed her that things are done with the OM. She always expressed extreme remorse to me. I thanked her for that and I said that she really has not said it like that before. She was shocked and said "of course I am so sorry for what I did. I feel awful that I hurt you like this. How can you not know that?" I told her that she never really says it to me. I told her that I cannot read her mind.
But, she has not offered full transparency. She does tell me where she is going and checks in more often but we are not at full transparency (namely code to her phone). We talked about it with the MC. My W is harboring extreme issues with my controlling behavior. Frankly, I think a lot of this was in her head and something that she has built up over time. I am not saying that I was perfect but the examples that she gives me of things that I did to control her are total news to me. So for her, having her own phone to which I don't have a code, etc. is a way of pushing back against her control issues. The MC tried to help her see my view, which my W did. But, she also said that she cannot live like a prisoner.
Here is where my W is (based on things that she has said to me):
- she logically wants our M to work
- she emotionally wants our M to work but struggles with her feelings
- she knows that am a good becoming great husband (she has said this to me)
- she loves me
- there is a physical attraction...this past week, for example, she initiated sex with me. She continues to say that sex was never our issue.
so the 2x4s are that she still feels entitled and has not hit rock bottom yet since she will not offer transparency. My assumption is people will say that I need to back off.
The ironic thing is that my "pain" in my chest is worse now than it was when we were DBing. I was detaching from her and trying to get to a point where I did not care what she did. I was GALing more and was in a better emotional spot. Now, we are together, and seemingly very happy. She says nice things to me (etc. tells me I look sexy/hot, tells me that I smell nice, tells me that I am perfect the way that I am, etc.), buys me things, we spend time together, we ML, etc, and yet I feel like my heart is broken even worse. I don't know if the pain is caused by the lack of full transparency OR the A.
Hi Shodan, I'm sorry to hear you're finding things hard. People say piecing is hard. I hope one day to find out!!
I think the important thing here is that whatever you agree here has to work for you both. It is really important to you that there is full transparency here, and it isn't being offered.
So, it sounds reasonable for you to say - I'm not willing to do this - to put in the huge effort and faith in out M - without that.
If you carry on with the niceness and the ML - all of which is lovely, especially after what you've been through - but without this fundamental thing in place, things will unravel.
Plus, the whole thing about why she doesn't want to be fully transparent doesn't ring true. Whilst she clearly wants to work on things with you, is she also just wanting to leave a little 'chink' just in case OM gets in touch? It'll eat you up anyways....
Now, I'm no expert, and not a vet, but just offering my 0.02's worth..
"The ironic thing is that my "pain" in my chest is worse now than it was when we were DBing. I was detaching from her and trying to get to a point where I did not care what she did. I was GALing more and was in a better emotional spot. Now, we are together, and seemingly very happy. She says nice things to me (etc. tells me I look sexy/hot, tells me that I smell nice, tells me that I am perfect the way that I am, etc.), buys me things, we spend time together, we ML, etc, and yet I feel like my heart is broken even worse. I don't know if the pain is caused by the lack of full transparency OR the A."
Does it feel like you're eating a half-baked cake here? If so, why not put the cake back into the oven to finish baking...