Divorcebusting.com

Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4

Posted By: Jefe

Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 12:25 AM

Old thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2498695&page=5
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 12:29 AM

Originally Posted By: Jefe

Ok, opportunity presented itself today for me to talk to the wife. We were having a little bit of a sweet moment on the phone and I told her that I knew how important om1 and d7's relationship was to her. I told her I understood what she was trying to do and that I wanted to move that direction and maybe more. I said I don't want to fight about om1 ever again. It's just not worth it.

I prayed and prayed about what I was supposed to say and that God would help me form the words and present an opportunity for me to say it and for her to hear it. God delivered in less than an hour. My wife received it well.

Hope,I do love my wife like that I just need to get a whole lot better at showing it. This makes me so uncomfortable to make the phone call that I made but I know it's what's right for my wife.

Originally Posted By: Jefe

I just went back through our portraits spanning the years since D7 was born and gathered several poses from each year and made him a package. I can't believe I just did that.

Hope, after you got done tearing me a new one, I turned Joyce Meyer on and her message basically hit me between the eyes as well.

7 times 70 times, right?

Originally Posted By: Hope

Jefe,

Did you just say you made OM1 a package of photos of D7 spanning every year from when she was born until now?

If this is what you did...this is an amazingly unselfish act of empathy to the biological father. Especially knowing how you feel about him.

I can't imagine how difficult this was for you.

Wow.

70 x 700.

Originally Posted By: Jefe

Yes, that is what I said. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I was guided and led, that's all I can say.

They are supposed to go visit that family next weekend at the park. I'll send them then. I haven't told my wife yet. I figure I'll tell her when I give them to her.


By the way, forgot to mention. She was off today and stopped by the house to start some of her laundry and LOTS of little acts of service all over the place here and elsewhere. Crazy.

I mirrored.
Posted By: CaliGuy

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 02:40 AM

Jefe

Thats an amazing act of kindness ... THAT is what a true Christian would do .. and it paints you into being a very strong individual. This is an excellent move
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 02:41 AM

I don't feel strong.

Thank you, CG. I value your support more than you know.
Posted By: PeterV2

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 03:59 AM

I see some growth happening here. Good move.
Posted By: UpperCu

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 04:08 AM

Sounds like you're going strong. You'll continue to slip up sometimes, I do often, but remember to dust yourself off and get back up. You've got momentum based on reality and a clear mind focused on yourself.

The affair fog is based on fantasy and can't hold up forever....

Proverbs 24:16  for the righteous falls seven times and rises again, but the wicked stumble in times of calamity.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 04:11 AM

"Proverbs 24:16 for the righteous falls seven times and rises again, but the wicked stumble in times of calamity.".

Wow, that's a good one and one that I am not that familiar with and I've read Proverbs many times.

Good job.
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 01:36 PM


Hey Jefe - Someone at church recently told me that I've been a source of inspiration to others. He said that I have stood up like a wall. I see the same thing in you. But - I know it's our savior standing us up, so we can be strong in him. Keep giving it over to him when you feel weak.
Posted By: Nitty

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 03:19 PM

Jefe, you called me "strong" but whoa, I think you're doing way better than I am! That was a true agape action and showed great strength of character.

UpperCut, what a wonderful verse! I never saw that before. Thank you for that!
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 04:04 PM

Thank you guys.

It's not me. God's got this. I'm just along for the ride at the moment.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 05:35 PM

Jefe,

You are wrong--it is you. God may have placed the desire to do the act but you made the decision to follow through with the action.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 10/31/14 06:27 PM


smile
Posted By: Ahoy

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/01/14 01:25 AM

Jefe, that's amazing about the pictures. And the best part of it is that this is something that is also good for your daughter as well. You are widening the circle of love and care for her in a truly selfless way. I can only imagine how hard it must be, but I'm impressed with how you are handling it.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/01/14 06:34 PM

A little blogging,

Wife texted and called several times yesterday checking in, after work, an so on. Nice longer type conversations. I enjoyed them.

Had a blast trick or treating with the kids at my mom's house and they will be spending the weekend over there.

Wife texted and called this morning, kind of a sweetish conversation (Maybe I'm just reading into it) and then came by the house to drop off some laundry. She was getting very close while she was here and I let her. My gosh she looked so beautiful today.

I'm doing some acts of service for her today.

She has to work this afternoon and so do I.

Appointment for first laser tat removal is this Wed. Starting moral inventory with sponsor tomorrow.

OK, boring update. Still praying like crazy for my marriage and everyone else on this board.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/02/14 12:11 AM

Jefe,

Did you say to your wife, "My gosh you look beautiful today?"

If not, do it. She needs to hear it.

If you did say it...good for you.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/02/14 04:26 AM

No, I did not say it today. I thought about it, wasn't sure if I should at that particular time.

I agree, she needs to hear it. Often.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/02/14 08:01 PM

Blogging:
Well, the last half of yesterday and today have been different. She has been distant and dim. Last night was the first time in weeks that she did not call or text to tell me she's ok and how her day went. I texted her this morning making sure she got home ok last night and she did not offer much else. She did not go to church today that I know of.

Sometimes I work special events with a friend of my who owns a boutique/high endy coffee service. I will never understand why people will line up to pay $5-6 for all these crazy coffee and warm drinks, but they do.
Last night he worked a free family festival in a neighboring suburb that had all types of food, and live bands (Blues Traveler) So I got to work that from 3-10:30. Lost of fun and it was just cool enough that we stayed really busy almost the entire time. That was great for keeping my mind busy. The sad part was seeing all the families there and wishing My family was too. But I didn't dwell on it much.

Today I went to Sam's to get some shopping done, picked up the wife a few things as an act of service gesture. I had no idea, though, how much this store was going to emotionally affect me. We haven't been able to shop there since we went full self employed about 12 months ago and when we did shop there we always did it together. It's a stupid store for pete's sake. I found myself tearing up on one of the isles. Then I'm thinking to myself, why can't I get a grip?

Looking forward to the kids coming home this evening. I miss them.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/02/14 11:01 PM

Based on previous interactions this is not a good sign. Something is going on.

Send her a text that says, "I forgot to tell you how beautiful you looked yesterday. Remind me to tell you today."

Jefe, every time you wife engages in withdrawing behavior she follows it up with a lashing event.

Preempt it this time.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/02/14 11:02 PM

Well, I just got some Intel that she was with Johnny the night before she told me she was going to start dating. So, I'm feeling pretty foolish and stupid now. Guess I know what she was doing last night.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/02/14 11:09 PM

Crap, Hope. We cross posted. I don't think t can do that considering what I just found out. I want to throw up right now. She want to come over after work and I don't want her here. She lashed out at the festival because she was F'ing around the night before.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/02/14 11:26 PM

This is pretty harsh information.

What do you want to do with it?
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/02/14 11:48 PM

I don't know
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 12:00 AM

Okay.

Sometimes we need permission just need to breathe and absorb for a while.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 12:16 AM

I mean, what can I do? I don't want her to know I have it and it doesn't really prove anything other than they were at a club with some other people, but it still sux.

If I confront her it will certainly end in an over the top lashing episode where she will, almost guaranteed, try and do as much damage to what's left of the marriage as she can, so that's out. What's left, Hope?

Maintaining a poker face for the next few days is what's going to be difficult.
Posted By: MCS

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 01:05 AM

I would wait on it a few days. Take some deep breaths, you now have a little predictability in her behavior. You'll know when the time is right.

After my W left, she didn't talk to me for 8 weeks. Around week 6, enough people convinced me that there definitely was an OM. I got confirmation and waited almost two weeks to finally confront. Interestingly enough, the day I was going to confront her she sent me a draft separation agreement first. She fired the first shot, but I was already prepared with exactly what to say. I think she was either defensive or taken back that I knew but still wanted to work out the M. Anyway, We then had some in depth talks for about 6 days and while not saying she wanted to work on the M, we ended up going back to counselling to discuss the kids.

Just like you, it seems like we have slid back from that better time in this crisis, but there's a plan in all of this, trust your faith.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 01:12 AM

Well…you said it yourself, the information you obtained doesn’t prove anything other than your wife and “Johnny” were at a club with other people. And yes…it does s***k. At the minimum, you know your wife was with another man.

This information would send anyone into orbit.

You assume if you confront her it will end in an “over the top lashing episode where she will, almost guaranteed, try and do as much damage to what's left of the marriage.”

Based on her previous behavior…I would probably agree with you.

Here’s the problem when you deal with people who don’t have anything to lose: Their only concern is their self-preservation. What you are losing doesn’t enter into their brain. It’s not that they don’t care about you…it’s that they don’t even consider you once they feel trapped.

So, my advice is step back and ask yourself, “Where do I want to be in a year?”

If you cannot honestly answer this question then do nothing. Nothing is a strategy. And it’s a good strategy when you aren’t sure what to do.

If the answer to this question is, “I want to be with my wife” then stay silent.

You already know confronting her is not a good strategy. As I have said in the previous posts, my goal is to get you both to pastoral marriage counseling. This situation is something you can work through in pastoral marriage counseling. Once you are in marriage counseling you can approach this topic with a trained professional.

If the answer to this question is, “It doesn’t matter because if my wife has been with another man during this separation she has crossed a line which I can never live with” then you have to confront her with the full expectation the worst case scenario will occur.

I tell people to expect the worst case scenario when making this statement because they usually make this statement with the best case scenario in mind. The best case scenario is: I confront my wife and she begs me not to leave her.

This never happens.

The more likely scenario will be that she agrees with you. She says you should not be married to a deceptive spouse, then she proceeds with the divorce and pursues a relationship with “Johnny.” And he (Johnny) will become a permanent fixture in your wife and children’s lives.

I know none of these are good solutions.

But let me speak to trying to romance your wife and bring her to the point where she is amicable to marriage counseling.

If I could point to a critical flaw couples make in their marriage it is the “hurry up” mentality when conflict occurs.

Many couples see problems in their marriage as a 60 metres track & field event—solve the problem as quickly as possible so you can reach your goal of a conflict-free marriage.

But marriage was never meant to be a sprint where you solved issues quickly. It was meant to be a lifetime journey. You start at one place and end at another. Not every problem will be solved and not every argument will end. But, during the journey you will learn how to make your team strong. You learn how to problem-solve and live with conflicts so when difficult times come your team doesn’t collapse.

If, as a couple, you are focused on solving every problem—every single time—you never learn how to navigate through rocky waters. Then what will you do when you are forced to live with an unresolvable situation?

Jefe, you have had your share of rocky waters. And I don’t know what the future holds for you and your wife.

But, if you choose to stay silent on this issue and work through this--please do so with long-term goals in mind. If you stay silent with short-term goals it will surely drive you mad.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 01:29 AM

She's here right now. Hope, please stick around and I will update in about an hour.


I'm in it for the long haul.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 02:31 AM

Hope,
I want to be with my wife. I married her for better or worse. This is the worse. I'm here until she files for divorce and goes through with it and then I'll probably stick around for a little while longer trying to repair whatever bridges are left.

I'm feeling very defensive and valueless at the moment. I feel like I have lost my center. God is my center but my wife was my strength too. My house is divided, I don't even feel like D7 is my daughter anymore. I feel like my house and my family are under attack.

She was here and gone in about 30 minutes. I gave her the stuff I got her at the store today. A bunch of stuff actually. Kind of wish in some ways I hadn't done it, then again, 7 X 70. She didn't even say thank you or appear to understand that it was an act of kindness... I guess I'm mind reading.

She wanted to check out my hair cut I got yesterday. She smiled and said: "Yeah, I like it." I looked her in the eyes got close and told her she was beautiful. She responded a little coyly, but sweetly.

The problem is, the intel I have is 2 weeks old at this point. It does su*k because she was at a bar in a not nice part of town. It's not a place I would picture a wife and mother of 2 young children who works for a church would hang out at. I was able to get a look at her Facebook page today and the fact that she was at this bar on the 18th with Johnny was the ONLY incriminating evidence I could find of ANYTHING. Someone else posted the 18th post and tagged her in it. It appears that after she deleted me she has gone fairly FB dim with just some random meme posts here and there. And I want to add, that Johnny plays on her Monday pool league so that fact that she was at a pool hall with a team mate is not necessarily strange, but this was a little more intimate. She did come home early this last Monday so who the he*l knows.

I don't see how long term goals will drive me any less mad.

Now what.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 03:03 AM

...and just got a "Thank You" text. She's out doing "acts of service" for the kids.

Man I feel like such a schmuck.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 03:09 AM

Don't feel like a schmuck. Of course you are feeling defensive and valueless at the moment. It would be odd if you were not. You love your wife and your wife was in a terrible part of town with another man. Your feelings are normal.

Never underestimate the value of small gestures of intimacy. These are the ties that bind. Johnny may play pool with her but he has not built a life with her. He is in the position of “building intimacy.” You have already built intimacy with your wife. You are in the opposite position. You are in the position of “destroying intimacy.”

You have the stronger hold in her life but you must be wise enough to understand that anything which can be built can be destroyed.

Every day, every hour, every moment is another chance you have to rebuild intimacy with your wife--or destroy intimacy with your wife.

When I said “short-term goals will drive you mad” I mean that if you concentrate on “by next week this will happen” you will approach every day with urgency and be disappointed with the outcome.

But if you concentrate on “in 20 years we will have built a life” then you will approach today as a building block for the future.

For example, you understand that telling your wife she is beautiful tonight may not reap results next week--but in 20 years, when she is laying in your arms and you say, “You are beautiful” she will smile and say, “You always say that” and she will know it is true.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 03:23 AM

OK, I understand what you mean about the long term, now.

What I don't get is how did we get to a place where she thinks she has nothing to loose? Wow. I didn't think I was that bad of a husband.

Just before this went south, at the end of Aug, just 2 weeks before she mentioned divorce, she sent me these texts very early on a Sunday morning (forgive me if I posted them before):

W: I Love You

W: I Miss you. I wish I knew how for us to get along better. I wish I was perfect.

W: I wish I never made mistakes

W: I'll make it to service at 11 with you.


She never made it. We were so close, and I think I blew it. I wish we were back here 60 days ago.

"...when she is laying in your arms and you say, “You are beautiful” she will smile and say, “You always say that” and she will know it is true."

She already used to say that to me when our relationship was much better. It's always been true.

BTW, Thanks for the response, MCS.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 03:39 AM

I'm sorry Jefe, I misspoke when I said your wife "had nothing to lose."

I honestly don't know where she is emotionally. I was making an assumption and I should not do that. Especially in an emotionally charged situation like the one you just faced.

Thank you for calling me out on it.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 03:43 AM

I wasn't trying to call you out, lol. That's your job.

But I do feel concerned that she may be close to feeling that way. IF she thinks she can't overcome what has already happened and keeps heaping more on top. How could she ever feel like she could recover?

I mean, I'm an addict, I get this mentality to an extent. I just don't know how to break the cycle.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 04:05 AM

Just got a TY text from MIL for the stuff I sent with my wife.
Double brownie points.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 04:30 AM

Oh Jefe,

I wish there was a wand that I could wave over all the men on this site to show them the inside of a woman's heart. I think if men could see it--they would understand how easy it is to hurt a woman.

And how easy it is to heal the woman you have hurt.

Women dream of their Prince Charming. The man who will love them unconditionally. The man who will protect them without fail. The man who will be loyal to them above all others. The man who will choose them first and stand by them always.

But Prince Charming becomes a sullen little boy who gets his feelings hurt and blames her when his job doesn't work out; refuses to defend her when the mother-in-law makes a snide comment about her cooking or cleaning; wants to hang out with his buddies instead of her; and starts complaining that she is "psycho" because she gets angry when he emotionally withdraws.

It crushes her because she wants him to be her hero. But men fight so hard not to be their woman's hero.

I find it sad how often I meet men who have spent more time convincing the woman in his life why she choose wrong than convincing her why she choose right.

And, when she finally agrees with him, "Yes, you are a jerk. You don't defend me. You don't protect me. You would rather be with your friends than me." He gets hurt.

Woman are easy. They want to love. They dream of love. They are motivated by love. When they aren't in love the majority of them talk about when they will fall in love.

So if you know this about a woman...how do you deal with a woman who is walking away?

How do you break the cycle?

Love. The same love that won her heart the first time will win her heart the second time. Give her the man she thought she fell in love with the first time. Be the man she thought you were before you broke her heart.

Unconditional romantic love. If you don't give it to her--she will find it somewhere else. It's in the female culture. We want love.

And there is something amazing about being with a man who thinks you are the most wonderful person on earth. It is irresistible to woman.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 04:46 AM

Funny. I had been begging her to come see my band play for weeks and weeks. When she finally did, I could not keep my eyes off of her. I even told her she was the hottest most beautiful woman in the place that night, and I meant it too. I used to dote on her like that all the time. Man she loved that stuff.

Why did I stop? I don't feel any differently. I don't care what time and children have done to her body. She is still the most beautiful woman in the room at ANY given moment. And I'm not just talking about her "parts" like I'm sure some of the other guys do. I meant SHE was beautiful.

The trick is making her feel that way without pursuing and while protecting my heart to some small extent.
Posted By: claire7

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 04:48 AM

Oh, wow, Hope. Where have you been all my life?

Your words resonate with me so so much.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 04:49 AM

Yup. You need to learn the balance.

Women dream of romance.

But they run from stalkers. smile
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 05:02 AM

Hi Claire,

Hang in there. I know things are tough for you honey. But you're doing better than you think you are.
Posted By: Ss06

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 05:18 AM

Hope, I agree with Claire! Where have you been all my life? Any chance you have equal insight into men? I know you're a woman but I sure could use some understanding on what men want, deep down. wink
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 05:24 AM

Men want to be needed. We want our wives to find us useful. We also want respect. We don't want to be chided or talked down to in public or in front of our friends. It demeans us and is hard to recover from. We want to know that we complete you.

I'm going to tell you this much, too, Guys.
Hope is the real deal. She has given me more insight into myself and my situation than I think I have ever gotten. She gets it. Pay close attention.

Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 12:31 PM

Not a fun night at all. I got zero sleep. I'm feeling nauseous. My mind is a jumbled mess. I thought things were getting so much better.
Posted By: Sotto

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 01:19 PM

Hi Jefe - I'm sorry things have worsened. Remember this is a marathon, not a sprint. Try not to set too much store by improvements - they are just another bend in the road on the journey, which will take the time it takes.

Do you think your W is retreating because you started to look hopeful about your R? Don't undo the good recent things you've done, by having a big reaction to this. Just withdraw, stay civil & do some of your own stuff for a bit...

Good luck :-)
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 02:08 PM

"Don't undo the good recent things you've done, by having a big reaction to this."

Excellent point. For her this is old news. And I do feel like we have made some strides. Just need to pul this knife out of my chest first.
Posted By: Sotto

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 02:31 PM

Hold on Jefe....I'm just gonna grab the handle and pull...there, it's out! ;-)
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 02:58 PM

TY.

Much better now.

"Do you think your W is retreating because you started to look hopeful about your R?"

Good question. I dont know. Possibly.

I think, just my stupid mind reading self here, she is carrying a ton of guilt. She sure doesn't act like it, but it's got to be there otherwise she would be a sociopath. I think she would like nothing more than to come home and fix all of this but I don't think she knows how and I don't think she's comfortable that the road home is smooth let alone paved. Shes dug herself a hole but she keeps on digging trying to get out. I feel so sad for her because I just want to jump in and fix it and make it all better but I can't. So yes, in a sense, I think she saw me be hopeful and that triggered her flight mechanism.

I just don't understand a woman that would wants to hang out with some dude she's barely known 6 weeks and some dirty bar and leave behind her home, her children, her husband, her church. I guess what really hurts is that from her perspective it must have been so bad that this is better.

Who knows. I guess I could go crazy trying to figure out the why.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 03:21 PM

I feel like I need to keep blogging these text interactions if for no other reason than just so I make sure I am painting a complete and unfiltered portrait of our dynamics and interaction. I'll start with the texts last night right after she left.

7:55 PM
W: Change all the clocks in the house please

M: Already done

9:00 PM
W: Thank you for the socks
W: Still on the hunt for the umbrella
(we need a second "Disney" one for D5, our Wally World only had one)
M: You're welcome for all of it
W: Yes thank you for all of it, my mom said thank you too

9:12 PM
W: Girls asleep?

M: Yes
I forgot to get the (***) from you
M: Yes you did
W: Can you put it on the buffett please I need to deliver it on my day off whenever that will be
M: Ok
W: TY
-----------------------------------
7:40 AM Today
W: You working today?
M: I was supposed to but it just now canceled
W: OK
M: Why, did you need something?
W: No just wondering

Yes. Totally boring exchange. And part of why I am baffled. What is the point of this, other than to reach out and just touch?
Posted By: Sotto

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 04:16 PM

You could always detach a bit more from the texting if you wanted to? Not answer promptly unless it seems important & don't always answer etc..
Posted By: CaliGuy

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 06:49 PM

Quote:

Oh Jefe,

I wish there was a wand that I could wave over all the men on this site to show them the inside of a woman's heart. I think if men could see it--they would understand how easy it is to hurt a woman.

And how easy it is to heal the woman you have hurt.

Women dream of their Prince Charming. The man who will love them unconditionally. The man who will protect them without fail. The man who will be loyal to them above all others. The man who will choose them first and stand by them always.

But Prince Charming becomes a sullen little boy who gets his feelings hurt and blames her when his job doesn't work out; refuses to defend her when the mother-in-law makes a snide comment about her cooking or cleaning; wants to hang out with his buddies instead of her; and starts complaining that she is "psycho" because she gets angry when he emotionally withdraws.


Hope ... this is not fair .. mindreading is not allowed here right??!!!!

Totally guilty of this .. and I basically admitted as much and it was a HUGE impact ... I just pray I have time to right the ship.

Jefe ... hang in there man ... you are adding gallons to that love bucket .. and dude is just using a teaspoon in the lust bucket .. that will fade

Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 07:42 PM

"Jefe ... hang in there man ... you are adding gallons to that love bucket .. and dude is just using a teaspoon in the lust bucket .. that will fade "

I know you're right. Just hard to see it from here sometimes.

Well, wife called a few times this morning wanting to discuss what sounded to me like future strategy. We have let the insurance lapse on the cars a couple of months back while we climb out of this income hole I got us into. Anyhow, she wants to take her next paycheck and get the "cars" and house insurance back up to snuff and take care of some other things with my truck.

So totally confused at this point but I'll take it for now.
Posted By: CaliGuy

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 07:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Jefe

I know you're right. Just hard to see it from here sometimes.

Well, wife called a few times this morning wanting to discuss what sounded to me like future strategy. We have let the insurance lapse on the cars a couple of months back while we climb out of this income hole I got us into. Anyhow, she wants to take her next paycheck and get the "cars" and house insurance back up to snuff and take care of some other things with my truck.

So totally confused at this point but I'll take it for now.


Thing is .. you can not do much about it right? Like Hope said .. big picture this thing. Plant now for the harvest later .. I know you have heard the scripture on this .. we reap what we sow. Plant that field, do not get caught up in thinking the worst .... I know its hard .. trust me .. I have a MLC who has/had (who knows at this point) an OM.... as we were having a serious talk her phone vibrates and it set me off, she showed me it was an alert for a sale at Nordstroms .. I had to laugh at myself.

You have a good resource here .. Hope seems to be mentoring you .. you are blessed in so many ways ... sail the ship, its a long journey but I have faith you will get there, Remember .. when in doubt .. Give it to Him.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 08:34 PM

"as we were having a serious talk her phone vibrates and it set me off, she showed me it was an alert for a sale at Nordstroms"

Priceless!

I am blessed. Thank you for pointing that out.

I just did my 3rd step prayer with my sponsor at lunch, starting my 4th step tonight. It's all about giving it to him, at this point.

Thank you, CG.
Posted By: theoden

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 09:02 PM

Jefe,

Sorry you are going through this hell. It totally [censored]. My prayers are with you.

I did all the things you are doing here: filling my wife's love bucket, being super nice, trying to change myself.

It didn't work. Not while she was having an affair. My pursuing behavior turned her off.

This is pursuing behavior. It goes against Divorce-Busting 101 and basic male/female dynamics. You are pursuing her WHILE she's having an affair. Consider that you are enabling your wife to cake-eat (benefit from having a loving, supporting husband AND another lover). You are acting like her plan B. Why should she choose? She isn't afraid of losing your love or having her little apple cart upset by you. You're the nice guy giving her what she wants. It's also true what women aren't attracted to men they don't respect.

Think about it.

Theoden
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 10:34 PM



I've thought about this too, DBing vs being the "supportive nice guy" on mine and Jefe's cases. I think the difference is that Hope seems to somewhat of a mind reader and I think her guidance navigating the female psyche is much more precise path than the general road-map DB provides.
Posted By: GoatGal

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 10:50 PM

Theoden,

What you said above is exactly what I've been trying to convey to a few new guys here, jim and mozza.

It's hard walking that fine line between being assertive and not being a d*ck, especially when WAW's previous complaints might have been along the lines that they were not "supportive".

However, NOW is not the time to bend over backwards "supporting" WAW's antics.
Validate, sure. Be kind and cooperative, be polite.

But being "nice" and avoiding angering them will not "win them back".

Thanks for posting that ^^^. smile


---(G)GGG
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 11:05 PM


I especially appreciated Hope's advice of being empathic, first and foremost. Is it nice? Yes. Do women appreciate that? Yes. Does it avoid anger and diffuse it? Yes. Is it love? Yes. :-)
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 11:16 PM

Btw Jefe - Those jerks pursuing your wife are in it for their own lusts and selfish motivations. They have no clue how to show the love you have proven you are capable of.
Posted By: GoatGal

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/03/14 11:29 PM

Guys,

I am a woman too... and while filling her love bucket and all is well and good, if she is actively involved with OM, you do NOT want to be her fallback Mr. Nice Guy.

She will use this to further her own agenda.

I'm not saying to be a jerk, just find out where to draw the line that shows her you will not be disrespected.

Women appreciate a strong, assertive man with a heart of gold. But we do not respect men that let us get away with things we know they shouldn't.

I think being romantic and making her the centerpiece of your life IS exactly what we want. However, if we are involved with OM, this is not what we are wanting FROM YOU at that time.

We need to respect you before we can feel romantic with you.

I hope that makes sense.

Just my .02.

---(G)GGG
Posted By: Wonka

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 12:32 AM

Originally Posted By: GoatGal
Guys,

I am a woman too...


Gasp! shocked Could've fooled me there....
Posted By: GoatGal

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 12:36 AM

Just keepin' it real, Wonka; keepin' it real.

Just in case there was any confusion. smile
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 01:32 AM

Originally Posted By: GoatGal
Guys,

I am a woman too... and while filling her love bucket and all is well and good, if she is actively involved with OM, you do NOT want to be her fallback Mr. Nice Guy.

She will use this to further her own agenda.

I'm not saying to be a jerk, just find out where to draw the line that shows her you will not be disrespected.

Women appreciate a strong, assertive man with a heart of gold. But we do not respect men that let us get away with things we know they shouldn't.

I think being romantic and making her the centerpiece of your life IS exactly what we want. However, if we are involved with OM, this is not what we are wanting FROM YOU at that time.

We need to respect you before we can feel romantic with you.

I hope that makes sense.

Just my .02.

---(G)GGG


Fwiw, I'm with GoatGal, Wonka, Sandi and Train on this subject (all WOMEN, btw). There will be, we all pray, a time and a place for you to meet your wife's emotional needs, Jefe. Unfortunately, now is not that time. In her current wayward state, you are likely smothering her, and it's very likely that the very behaviors she would have WELCOMED from you at another time in your marriage, she now finds is killing attraction.

I have been following all along, even though I haven't been saying much. But I do not think that you can name-change "pursuit" into "romancing" and make it fit into DBing. It's more fitting of the "Piecing" stage, and you're just not there yet.

Starsky
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 01:45 AM

TY Starsky. I knew you've been watching and have been waiting since yesterday for you to come out of hiding. I felt it coming.

I'm just absorbing at the moment.

Understand. I am extremely torn. I trust Hope's direction and insight. Starsky, I value your experience and knowledge on the suject as well.

I trust you both.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 02:02 AM

I do know this much. I simply cannot afford to have another negative, confrontational exchange with my wife at the moment. It will set us back miles.
Posted By: GoatGal

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 02:18 AM

Jefe,

It's a hard stance to wrap your head around. There is a fine line between being assertive and being aggressive, between standing up for your values and being confrontational.

No one is advocating being confrontational. We want you to be assertive. This means you treat your wife with respect even though you don't respect her choices.

But you don't try and romance her while she is with OM. That is going to backfire on you, but the sad part is you probably won't realize it until much later.

Because, if she is getting what she wants, she's not going to complain. She is going to continue to eat the delicious cake you are serving. But when you discover that nothing is changing, she's still with OM and you're still here, you may try the assertive stance.

And she will get angry and push back as she would react if you did it now. You can save yourself a lot of time to draw the lines in the sand now.

You do want to avoid confrontation. That part is correct.
If she gets angry about you doing what's best for yourself and your daughters, is that a bad thing? Does that mean you allow her to do as she will without any response from you?

Just things to think about. It probably sounds harsh, but I don't mean it to be.
A lot of people come on here and want to believe that their situation is somehow different. That's usually never the case.

But a woman who is cheating on you does not respect you, and she cannot love you if she doesn't respect you.

I'm sure Hope would agree with that as well. I agree with much of what she has posted, but I feel some of it is being cherry-picked to mean that the key to salvaging your M AT THIS POINT is laying on the empathy and romance.

If you read the DB/DR books, that is NOT DBing.

That is something that would have helped your marriage prior to this point.

It is "marriage building" and something you would do if and when she is on board with R, has dumped the OM, and is not blatantly disrespecting you as her husband.

It is not a technique to use now.

You can be kind, compassionate, and assertive.

THAT is the combination women like. Leave out assertive and you've got the "Friend Zone" guy. You don't want to be that guy.


---(G)GGG
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 02:40 AM

Hi Jefe,

I’m glad you posted the text messaging between you and your wife. There is no such thing as random communication if your spouse is initiating it.

So my first question is: Who initiated the conversation?

If it was your wife then let's get to work.

I find the topic interesting. “Change all the clocks in the house please.

This is the type of message you expect the day before daylight savings time or the morning of daylight savings time. But it is odd on the Sunday of daylight savings time. Especially when she came to the house that evening and was able to see if the clocks had been changed.

Just out of curiosity…in the past has your wife displayed a particular fascination with daylight savings time? If not, why didn’t you question this question?

Always take a second look at behavior when it isn’t part of normal patterns for that person.

The next text messages are also interesting. Please read them again.

9:00 PM
W: Thank you for the socks
W: Still on the hunt for the umbrella (we need a second "Disney" one for D5, our Wally World only had one)

If you and your wife were not estranged…would these sentences be conversation starters? Under “normal circumstances” what would a “normal conversation” look like if she would have sent these text messages?

The reason I ask is because your wife is not divorce busting. She will continue to engage in familiar behavior patterns. Which means if the above was a “normal” conversation starter in your relationship before it became strained...she may be attempting to engage you in a “normal” conversation.

What about the 9:12 PM text conversation and the one today at 7:40 AM?

To you these are boring exchanges. But there are people on this web site who haven’t heard from their spouses at all. There are others who only receive hostile communication.

But you are engaging in “boring” communication on a regular basis with your wife. Please take notice of this. Especially when it appears that your wife is looking for conversation starters.

The only way we will know if she is trying to engage you in conversation is to test the waters.

The next time she starts a conversation—respond conversationally.

For example:

W: Thank you for the socks
M: How could I resist? It’s getting cold and I want your feet to stay warm!
W: Still on the hunt for the umbrella (we need a second "Disney" one for D5, our Wally World only had one)
M: Oh come on! I can find a Disney umbrella. Make it a challenge. Give me the “Disney” character you really want.

If she really just wanted to thank you for the socks she will respond appropriately.

W: Well, anyways, thanks.

But is she is attempting to start a conversation she will respond conversationally. The same with the umbrella. If she is giving you instructions—“We need this item”—Her response will be:

W: Any Disney umbrella is fine. (Which…by the way…isn’t true. Every child has their favorite Disney character and your wife knows this.)

Studies show women are verbal creatures. They use more words than men. If she wants to talk she will continue the conversation. If she doesn’t—she will shut it down. But if she wants to talk and you shut it down, she will stop talking.

So let’s find out if she is trying to talk to you.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 03:25 AM

Originally Posted By: Hope414
Hi Jefe,
Hello
I am in a horrible place tonight. Tonight is Pool League night and she has the day off, so my mind is wandering and my PMA not very good. But, I'll live.


I’m glad you posted the text messaging between you and your wife. There is no such thing as random communication if your spouse is initiating it.

So my first question is: Who initiated the conversation?
She initiated it about 5 minutes after she left the house yesterday.

If it was your wife then let's get to work.

I find the topic interesting. “Change all the clocks in the house please.

This is the type of message you expect the day before daylight savings time or the morning of daylight savings time. But it is odd on the Sunday of daylight savings time. Especially when she came to the house that evening and was able to see if the clocks had been changed.

Just out of curiosity…in the past has your wife displayed a particular fascination with daylight savings time? If not, why didn’t you question this question?
Honestly, I found it random in an odd sort of way, but not extremely out of the question for her to request I do it, but odd the request on a Sunday night after the fact and especially when it really does not affect her that much. I know for a fact that of the 2 clocks that have to be changed she was looking right at one when she was there. The other is in our bedroom.

Always take a second look at behavior when it isn’t part of normal patterns for that person.

The next text messages are also interesting. Please read them again.

9:00 PM
W: Thank you for the socks
W: Still on the hunt for the umbrella (we need a second "Disney" one for D5, our Wally World only had one)

If you and your wife were not estranged…would these sentences be conversation starters? Under “normal circumstances” what would a “normal conversation” look like if she would have sent these text messages?
They seem pretty normal for her in our daily life prior to the separation.

The reason I ask is because your wife is not divorce busting. She will continue to engage in familiar behavior patterns. Which means if the above was a “normal” conversation starter in your relationship before it became strained...she may be attempting to engage you in a “normal” conversation.

What about the 9:12 PM text conversation and the one today at 7:40 AM?
Both of these seemed out of context and pretty random. I even questioned the morning one. We would have talked about the job schedule the night before back in normal life.

To you these are boring exchanges. But there are people on this web site who haven’t heard from their spouses at all. There are others who only receive hostile communication.
I absolutely realize this. And normally I'm receiving hostile communication too.

But you are engaging in “boring” communication on a regular basis with your wife. Please take notice of this. Especially when it appears that your wife is looking for conversation starters.

The only way we will know if she is trying to engage you in conversation is to test the waters.

The next time she starts a conversation—respond conversationally.

For example:

W: Thank you for the socks
M: How could I resist? It’s getting cold and I want your feet to stay warm!
W: Still on the hunt for the umbrella (we need a second "Disney" one for D5, our Wally World only had one)
M: Oh come on! I can find a Disney umbrella. Make it a challenge. Give me the “Disney” character you really want.
For her, this was some large symbol of "Acts of Service" for the girls. I just let her run with it. She continued the hunt this afternoon. I was happy to let her do it as she is starting to show some real concern about the girls, finally.

If she really just wanted to thank you for the socks she will respond appropriately.
True. I just found it odd that of all the stuff I sent with her, it was the socks that peaked her interest.

W: Well, anyways, thanks.

But is she is attempting to start a conversation she will respond conversationally. The same with the umbrella. If she is giving you instructions—“We need this item”—Her response will be:

W: Any Disney umbrella is fine. (Which…by the way…isn’t true. Every child has their favorite Disney character and your wife knows this.)

Studies show women are verbal creatures. They use more words than men. If she wants to talk she will continue the conversation. If she doesn’t—she will shut it down. But if she wants to talk and you shut it down, she will stop talking.

So let’s find out if she is trying to talk to you.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 03:33 AM

This afternoon, of the 2 separate times she was here today, I stupidly attempted to rub her shoulders without her initiation any physical contact and she was absolutely not receptive. Dumb pursuing move on my part, but when she came back later she was leaning close and just breaching personal space allot. Just weird. that's all.
Posted By: Hope414

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 04:03 AM

I'm sorry Jefe, I was unclear in my messaging.

I was not telling you how should have responded in your last text messages.

I was using your text messages as examples on how to test the waters to determine if you wife is trying to engage in conversation.

In other words: If the text message indicates conversation respond with conversation.

Regarding the shoulder rubbing issue--Don't ever breach her personal space. This is just like dating. Look but do not touch unless given permission.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 06:50 AM

Originally Posted By: FunDad
Btw Jefe - Those jerks pursuing your wife are in it for their own lusts and selfish motivations. They have no clue how to show the love you have proven you are capable of.


Thank you, FD. I know you're right.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 06:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Hope414
I'm sorry Jefe, I was unclear in my messaging.

I was not telling you how should have responded in your last text messages.

I was using your text messages as examples on how to test the waters to determine if you wife is trying to engage in conversation.

In other words: If the text message indicates conversation respond with conversation.

Regarding the shoulder rubbing issue--Don't ever breach her personal space. This is just like dating. Look but do not touch unless given permission.


You were clear. I'm just not thinking clearly tonight.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 12:05 PM

Blogging:
She didn't call last night. So she's withdrawing. Whatever.

I'm feeling the anger build up in me. Anger for the stupidity of this whole thing. Angry that I'm having to deal with OUR children solo and listen to her little jabs about how I do it the few times when she comes over.

Just pointless anger.

I have an early teacher conference today about D7 so we can discuss why she's falling behind in her homework. Because daddy's not doing a very good job, that's why.

No freaking sleep, appetite going south...

Gratitude list:
My children are healthy
I have food, clothing, and transportation
We have a roof over our head
My wife at least calls most the time

God, walk with us today. Pick us up when we are weak. Give us the strength to face whatever comes today. Give me the words when I can't form them. Show me my next step. Your will, not mine be done. AMEN
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 01:58 PM

Well, that was slightly humiliating.
So here I am sitting in this tiny little chair at a desk designed for 6 & 7 year olds talking to D7's teachers, fighting hard to stop the tears with moderate success. Then her English teacher gets to the point she can't even look me in the eyes anymore because she's starting to water up a little. I lost my fight at the end.
How embarrassing.

Meanwhile, the W is texting because she blew all her money already and is wondering when "we're" getting more. I love this woman more than words but sometimes...
Posted By: GoatGal

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 02:13 PM

Jefe,

I'm sorry...I know this is so emotional.

This is still really fresh for you and like any wound, it's still very painful.

It's particularly hard when you have to talk to someone--anyone--about the realities of your situation. You are a human being who is living with a deep emotional hurt. The tears are going to happen.

Just so you know, it does get better. The more you can detach, by accepting what is instead of what you wish it was, focusing on yourself and not trying to influence your wife, putting a little distance in there if needed, the better it will get.

It took me several months before I could talk to anyone about my sitch without bursting into tears. And it happened everywhere, at a friend's retirement party, at my doctor's office, the library. All anyone would have to do is start asking about my husband, or comment on my sudden and dramatic weight loss, or ask how things are going with the remodel...

Then again, I'm a girl. smile

But then the day came where I was able to talk to our handyman briefly about the situation without completely losing it. (He asked why my H hadn't done any of the work to move our project further and why things were in such a state of disarray around the property. I just came out with it.)
And I realized that I was getting better because I didn't start to tear up until the very end.

He--by the way--said, "Your husband is NUTS! You're such a sweetheart and--Look at you! Women like you don't come along very often. He is a fool and you can tell him I said so."

I didn't, of course. What I did say is "Why don't YOU tell him?"

Now I can just say "I'm hanging in there, thanks for asking. H is having a hard time but he's still my H." and change the subject. No tears now. It's been a year.

If there is any way you can train your mind to think of anything BUT your W and your sitch, do it.

The more time you can get focused on other things, the less that stress and heartache will manifest itself in your body and the better you will feel.

BTW, I got an rx from my doctor to help with sleep and generalized anxiety. I think it made a huge difference. I could finally sleep and wasn't throwing up all the time. My heart wasn't pounding.

I still have my "moments" but I am eating and sleeping so much better, and my mood is better. I feel more in control.

It's not for everyone, but if you need it, do it.

Better days ahead. Believe it.

---(G)GGG

PS: For me, things started to turn around once I kicked my H out of the house. (He'd filed for divorce and served me on my birthday; I figured that was a good enough reason.)
But not having to be around him every day made my emotional state so much better. I could detach, not seeing him looking at me with those cold, shark eyes, not having to bite my tongue every minute, not going off to the bedroom to silently rant... or cry.

Jefe--Make plans to be with friends, travel, go out more, whatever you can do to log in more positive times for yourself, and more space between you and your W's actions. It will help.

Again--don't be cold or indifferent. Just be busy doing things for you.
I mean, she's doing things for herself, right?


Posted By: theoden

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 03:18 PM

Jefe,

I don't think I'm up to speed on the situation

Is this summary correct?

1. You caught your wife sexting with someone. Confronted her, she moved out of your house.

2. You are caring for your kids, more or less solo.

3. There's an OM in the picture.

4. You are trying to romance/pursue her.

5. You are afraid that upsetting your wife or having boundaries, or confronting, will set you back or have her bolt.


OK here's my advice:

1. Do the GAL activities to get some sanity so that you are not basing your happiness on whether or not your wife texts you or what mood she's in. I've been there dude. Every sentence is analyzed every tone of voice either lifts your spirits or crushes you. You are acting needy and afraid. These are all turn-offs for your wife. She can smell your desperation, which only gives her more power in this situation. In Christian terms, you have made your wife an idol.

2. Stop pursuing her. It's a turn off. It's also enabling her as a cake-eater.

3. See a Family Lawyer/Divorce Attorney right away. This is important to protect you and your kids. Know your rights, get information, learn what to document. You should, in my opinion, document evidence of your wife's affair, the time she does/doesn't spend with the kids, her move-out date, the spending of your marital assets on her new affair life-style. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

4. Think through the worst-case scenario: a divorce. If that happens, ask yourself, "WHAT DO I WANT?" Complete custody of the kids, shared custody, keeping and living in your current home, etc. Think his through. IF you are caught unawares, continue to live in denial, and get dragged into a divorce, you will end up broke with the OM raising your children. If there's going to be divorce -- you set the terms. Be prepared, just in case.

5. Start talking to Starsky about setting healthy boundaries for you and the kids. You wife has got to start to feel your detachment (last resort technique) and your willingness to move on WITH or WITHOUT her (GAL and boundaries). Always being available and acting like a lap-dog won't build respect.

6. If you are being all "Christian" about romancing back your wife, think through the whole biblical counsel. You are focusing on the 70 X 7 stuff but ignoring that she isn't repenting or asking for forgiveness. You are looking at Hosea, but forgetting that he went and bought his wife back (something you can't do. Nor are you necessarily called to be an OT prophet). You are looking at the prodigal son story, but forgetting that the son has to come to his senses. You also must consider that sin (like adultery) destroys the family and the church. Nowhere in the New Testament do they advocate "nicing" a sinner into repentance or enabling them. Matthew 18 advocates an escalating form of confrontation with consequences. All the Pauline Epistles advocate "avoiding" and "handing over to Satan" an unrepentant sinner in-order to shame them in to returning to the faith and their community. People need to be made to feel the consequences of their actions. That's why it's called ex-communication. You withhold communion to wake a person up. So the practical side of Christian teaching on people like your wife is: turn up the heat. And I would argue that this is more loving that allowing a person to hurt themselves, their family, their church and their witness to the Gospel. Speak the truth in love. If you are dragging God into this, then take him seriously.

7. Get mad. It's healthy. Don't wallow in it, but it's OK to admit you are being royally screwed over. My Christian therapist once spent a whole session trying to get me mad about my wife's affair, to at least see if I had a healthy, functioning sense of self.

7. I say all this, admitting that I took the same path you are taking and made some of the same mistakes.

Peace,

Theoden
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 03:24 PM

Quote:

Jefe,

I don't think I'm up to snuff on the situation

Is this summary correct?

1. You caught your wife sexting with someone. Confronted her, she moved out of your house.
Sexting OM1 (D&7's bio dad) Noting other than this going on here. I think it stopped immediately.

2. You are caring for your kids, more or less solo.
Correct

3. There's an OM in the picture.
Possible OM2, not sure the extent.

4. You are trying to romance/pursue her.
I guess. Not really sure.

5. You are afraid that upsetting your wife or having boundaries, or confronting, will set you back or have her bolt.
Partially true, yes.


Let me read the rest of the post and I'll respond to that separately. Just wanted to tidy up the jist of the sitch.
Posted By: theoden

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 03:38 PM

Ok Jefe....if I'm doing my math right you're together 9 yrs, and married 8. How does one of your daughters have another dad?
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 03:41 PM

Quote:
6. If you are being all "Christian" about romancing back your wife, think through the whole biblical counsel. You are focusing on the 70 X 7 stuff but ignoring that she isn't repenting or asking for forgiveness. You are looking at Hosea, but forgetting that he went and bought his wife back (something you can't do. Nor are you necessarily called to be an OT prophet). You are looking at the prodigal son story, but forgetting that the son has to come to his senses. You also must consider that sin (like adultery) destroys the family and the church. Nowhere in the New Testament do they advocate "nicing" a sinner into repentance or enabling them. Matthew 18 advocates an escalating form of confrontation with consequences. All the Pauline Epistles advocate "avoiding" and "handing over to Satan" an unrepentant sinner in-order to shame them in to returning to the faith and their community. People need to be made to feel the consequences of their actions. That's why it's called ex-communication. You withhold communion to wake a person up. So the practical side of Christian teaching on people like your wife is: turn up the heat. And I would argue that this is more loving that allowing a person to hurt themselves, their family, their church and their witness to the Gospel. Speak the truth in love. If you are dragging God into this, then take him seriously.

I do take him seriously. My wife quit her position at the church to pursue other more lucrative employment, not faulting her here. But it was also because she knew they were about to make some kind of move or stance about her separation from the family. She quit going to our bi-weekly bible study. She has just about quit going to church at this point, alienated her closest friends that were taking a stand against her leaving. She has all but stopped talking to her Al-anon sponsor. She has started hanging out in seedy parts of town with questionable people (OK inserting my own villainous persona on them) and sees the kids maybe twice a week for short amounts of time. If she not seeing another man she's certainly courting one. Seems like she's trying her hardest to destroy the marriage as fast as she can, on purpose. All while she posts nice Christian memes on Facebook.

Now, I'm not just a hapless victim. I have been a horrible husband and I own most of the garbage that got us here in the first place. So lest anyone think I am trying to demonize my wife, I'm not. I'm just trying to save my marriage.

I take my Christian walk very seriously and she used to, too. She brought me to God and together we have increased our walk 1000 fold.

I am open to any and all suggestions, but a one shot last resort style maneuver is not where I'm at, yet.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 03:44 PM

Originally Posted By: theoden
Ok Jefe....if I'm doing my math right you're together 9 yrs, and married 8. How does one of your daughters have another dad?


I rounded the numbers up. Actually M 7.5 - T 8.5

Started courting/dating April 2006
Briefly split - Oct 06-Feb 07
Married - May 2007
D7 born - Sept 2007

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2496325#Post2496325
Posted By: theoden

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 03:54 PM

Jefe,

The Last Resort Technique:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/

Read and and incorporate what you can. It's not a one-shot deal. It's a posture you take to help wake them up.

Is one of your kids someone else's daughter? (the guy she was texting)? Tell me about that.

How about points 1-5 that I made? For the safety and security of your kids -- please go see a lawyer.

---Alan
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By: Jefe


I am open to any and all suggestions, but a one shot last resort style maneuver is not where I'm at, yet.



Then you're not "open to any and all suggestions." That's cool; you are certainly the one who has to live with the consequences of whichever approach you take.

Jefe, I too prayed -- DAILY -- for God to change my wife's heart. Ultimately, it turned out that He was trying to change mine, first, and teach me to work on some pretty unhealthy behaviors that run deep in my family (I am the child of an alcoholic, with lots of other alcoholics in my family, and I come from a long line of "pleasers" and "Mr. Nice Guy" types).

He also was prodding me to take a stand for holiness in my marriage, and let HIM work on my wayward wife. Letting her go, and -- in prayer -- "laying her at the foot of the Cross" -- was the single hardest thing I've ever done in my life, and I still remember where I was when I did that (I was mowing my lawn, and bawling like a baby in my backyard in the hot Florida heat, tears streaming down my face).

I was lucky, and surely blessed. God never gave up working on me, and my wife did ultimately soften her heart toward me and toward God, and we reconciled. It took a LOT of work, over several years, but today -- 7 1/2 years later -- our marriage is stronger than ever.

But it started with me. I had to learn to take a stand for holiness in my marriage and in my home, and I had to learn how to set and enforce healthy boundaries. It STILL doesn't come naturally to me, but I'm happy to report that those skills that I learned while DBing have served me today, and now I've begun to teach them to our adult children, for use in their own relationships and business dealings.

Ultimately, DBing says to "do what works." Just make sure you don't define "works" as "my wife being nice to me." Instead, look for things that cause her to make demonstrable moves back toward the marriage, and toward her family.

Praying for you, brother,


Starsky
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 04:10 PM

Very quick run-down. While we were separated before we got married she became pregnant. OM1 refused to accept that it was his child and even if it was he was refusing to have anything to do with my wife any further and even refused any further communication with her for the next 5 years.

I offered to make sure the child had a 2 parent home and was well cared for along with my wife. We disagreed greatly on how/when to tell D7 and visitation but agreed to work it out as we went.

There is way more to the dynamics than this and this is a giant over-simplification of the facts. Hope took great issue with some of my version of events stated previously and even that was a vast over-simplification of what really happened.

But there you have it.

Points 1-5:

1. Do the GAL activities... Yes, working on this. Yesterday was better than the day before, today is better than yesterday, etc.. I agree.

2. Stop pursuing her. I haven't really thought of my actions as pursuing. But I will revisit.

3. See a Family Lawyer/Divorce Attorney right away. I have really wanted to avoid this. It's kind of like the fear of actually writing a will is going to cause something to happen. I'll move forward here. At the end of the day I don't really think my wife wants a divorce. But who knows.

4. Think through the worst-case scenario: She cant take the house, it's locked up in a trust. No doubt in my mind I'm keeping the kids and may even ask for child support if it gets this ugly. I am firm on my stance here and she is aware of it.

5. Start talking to Starsky about setting healthy boundaries for you and the kids. You wife has got to start to feel your detachment (last resort technique) and your willingness to move on WITH or WITHOUT her (GAL and boundaries). Always being available and acting like a lap-dog won't build respect. I understand.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 04:16 PM

Jefe, there is nothing wrong with seeing a very good family law attorney to better understand your rights and responsibilities, and to protect yourself from any potential threats.

As the Good Book says, "there is wisdom in many counselors."

It DOESN'T mean you have to file for divorce, and to think that such a consultation would actually CAUSE one to happen is just plain superstitious. C'mon . . . you're better than that.


Starsky
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 04:17 PM

Quote:
Jefe, I too prayed -- DAILY -- for God to change my wife's heart. Ultimately, it turned out that He was trying to change mine, first, and teach me to work on some pretty unhealthy behaviors that run deep in my family (I am the child of an alcoholic, with lots of other alcoholics in my family, and I come from a long line of "pleasers" and "Mr. Nice Guy" types).

He also was prodding me to take a stand for holiness in my marriage, and let HIM work on my wayward wife. Letting her go, and -- in prayer -- "laying her at the foot of the Cross" -- was the single hardest thing I've ever done in my life, and I still remember where I was when I did that (I was mowing my lawn, and bawling like a baby in my backyard in the hot Florida heat, tears streaming down my face).


I know. I have used your prayer weekly. I can also guarantee that God has been working on me non-stop for 60+ days once I invited him in. I am working my AA Steps now. I've got a lot of repairs to make within my home and myself.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 04:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Starsky309

It DOESN'T mean you have to file for divorce, and to think that such a consultation would actually CAUSE one to happen is just plain superstitious. C'mon . . . you're better than that.

Starsky


Yes I am.
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 04:36 PM


Seeing an attorney could really give you some peace of mind. I waited until my wife filed to see one, and I had worried about what a D would mean for me until I had spent some time with an attorney going over our circumstances. I don't think having the information will hurt you at all, in fact, I only see how having to information will help you be informed and even make some changes now that will help bring order. One thing I did early on was set up a separate bank account so my wife would not drain our funds that we needed to pay bills. I set an amount for her monthly that I thought was fair, and gave it to her. She did not like that, filed for D, and is now getting less (at least temporarily).

No one says you have to file. You can wait for her to do it, but then be ready to respond if necessary.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 04:41 PM

Thank you FD. Agreed. I will see if I can find one who will do a free consult and if not, I will seek one out as soon as I fiscally can.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: theoden
Jefe,

The Last Resort Technique:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/

Read and and incorporate what you can. It's not a one-shot deal. It's a posture you take to help wake them up.


OK, just seems like a really simple version of Sandi's 37 rules. I was doing that already, or at least thought I was.
Posted By: SunnyB

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 06:56 PM

Jefe, I consulted two Ls a few months ago. It helped me tremendously, gave me an idea how a D might all play out financially, helped lessen my fears so I could better detach. You know me, know I'm not looking for a D, but I felt like the L thing was important.
Posted By: jim0987

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/04/14 08:50 PM

Jefe,

Can I add my voice to this. Its a good idea to speak to a L just so you know where you stand and how best to protect yourself. You don't need to commit to any action but it will help ease your mind
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 01:27 AM

Thank you everyone for the Lawyer comments. It couldn't hurt to have my bases covered.

My D5 got in bed with me this morning because of bad dreams. They have had bad dreams in such a long time until W left. D5 has also been melting down almost every day. She wants mommy HERE. She asked me the other day if we could all pack our stuff and go to Grandma's house so we could live with mommy. I said no, maybe you guys could for a little while but daddy can't go. D5 said "Well then I don't want to go if you can't."

I am so angry at what she is doing to her own children. So many people here talk about how their WAS's are such good mothers or fathers...BS. Good parents don't walk out on little children and think 30 minutes 2-3 times a week makes up for it.

I know it's futile to ask why, but I don't understand this mentality of walking away on everything and everyone and having the time of their life elsewhere. It's just peachy keen with Rainbows, Unicorns, and Leprechauns. I know many people here have told me she's suffering too, I just ain't seeing it. It is mind boggling. I'm starting to wonder if my W isn't having an early MLC.


Originally Posted By: Starsky
I had to learn to take a stand for holiness in my marriage and in my home, and I had to learn how to set and enforce healthy boundaries. It STILL doesn't come naturally to me, but I'm happy to report that those skills that I learned while DBing have served me today, and now I've begun to teach them to our adult children, for use in their own relationships and business dealings.


What did this look like exactly for you? I've seen you talk about the financial end of things, but how about the rest?
Posted By: MCS

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 01:44 AM

Originally Posted By: Jefe

I am so angry at what she is doing to her own children. So many people here talk about how their WAS's are such good mothers or fathers...BS. Good parents don't walk out on little children and think 30 minutes 2-3 times a week makes up for it


I hear ya on that one. I can't wrap my head around it. Good or bad, I told my wife today in counselling she's been an awesome mom for the last 5 years and I know she loves the kids. She then asked than why are you not sure what you want to do with the kids for custody? I said because how I feel is you just didn't walk out on me, you walked out on them too and for the last 3 months I really don't know where you stand with them. It's going to take me some time to get a feeling of how I feel about it now.

Again, may not be good, but it's honestly how I feel. Judging by her look, I think she's starting to realize the consequences of her actions, but I've been wrong before.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 02:13 AM

"Judging by her look, I think she's starting to realize the consequences of her actions"

We can only hope.

My W totally believes right now that the kids are doing just fine and she's being a great mom.

You know the script. "If I'm happy then everyone around me should be happy too." or "They will be so much happier without us fighting around them all the time." I didn't realize we were fighting all the time.

But you know what, I'm pretty damned angry right now. This too shall pass. Obviously I know she was hurting before she left just doesn't seem much like it now. I wish I could just fix it all.
Posted By: Maybell

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 03:06 AM

I wish I knew how to answer this but I really don't.

About six years ago, when my youngest was newborn, I was really depressed, angry and disappointed with my H. If I could have left him I totally would have. But I couldnt... Because I intended to keep my babies with me. There was no way in he11 I would have left them behind, for their well-being as well as mine. When I truly came to THAT realization is when I started trying to repair things with my H.

WRT the anger, etc., my only suggestion is that this is part of the process and you have to go through it. But go through it with an eye to eventually trying to improve that part of the situation, because there WILL come a time when you are calm enough to hear and apply good advice. It just might take some time.

Finally... When my S6 climbs into bed with me in the night with nightmares or whatever excuse he's claiming, I try to temper my frustration with gratitude that I get to be the one he turns to. We have a tight relationship because he knows he can rely on me, and he lets me know how much that matters to him. I'm sad for my H, who has no idea the depth and beauty of what he's missing.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 03:26 AM

I am grateful as can be that my girls are with me and am bothered by the fact she wakes me up or anything just frustrated that the wife is missing out on so much of their lives. These are such important times at this age.

I'm trying to hear the advice now. I just don't know what advice to follow. Everyone is making sound, logical suggestions from my point of view.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 03:27 AM

Blogging:

Wife just called. Asked how my day was, I asked about hers. She asked about the kids day. That was pretty much it.
Posted By: Maybell

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 03:35 AM

Jefe, there will come a moment when something will really crystallize. And then all the advice you've gotten will fall into place and you'll see which bits fit and apply and which bits don't. We all come from slightly different situations so you'll pick what works best for yours based on your knowledge of yourself, your W, your kids, and your sitch. But for that to happen you'll need to be more detached and that takes time. Until then, keep doing the best you can. You've got this.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 12:21 PM

I guess you're right, Maybell. I am no where near detached enough.

I don't sleep so much anymore as I just drop from exhaustion, lately still dressed. Then an hour or 2 later the tossing and turning starts as my mind races out of control in and out of some alpha state. I wouldn't even call the nightmares I've been having dreams, they are more like thoughts that are out of control because I don't think I have hit a restful beta state in some time.

I wish I knew how to detach and let it go. I've tried and tried and prayed and prayed.
Posted By: MCS

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 01:25 PM

Originally Posted By: Jefe

I wish I knew how to detach and let it go. I've tried and tried and prayed and prayed.


It will come, my experience was that the more that I thought about detaching, the more I was resisting because I knew it would be an emotional state that I was fearful of. Then, I let my guard down one weekend and it just happened after I got frustrated. If you're like me, The love you have for her will not dry up and you won't be resentful. I read the post about Matthew 3:18 on your thread last night and read that verse and I now understand how faith may play into a detached state. That helped me a lot trying to bridge the overt compassionate love and the more objective view of the situation once we're detached.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 02:37 PM

Originally Posted By: Jefe


Originally Posted By: Starsky
I had to learn to take a stand for holiness in my marriage and in my home, and I had to learn how to set and enforce healthy boundaries. It STILL doesn't come naturally to me, but I'm happy to report that those skills that I learned while DBing have served me today, and now I've begun to teach them to our adult children, for use in their own relationships and business dealings.


What did this look like exactly for you? I've seen you talk about the financial end of things, but how about the rest?


Have you read my sitch? I think I've posted the links to you previously, Jefe. You ask a question that would require way more time than I have at the moment to answer, but ALL of my moves -- both the successful ones and the awkward, graceless ones -- are in my old threads.


Starsky
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 02:43 PM

I have not read your situation. I will search it out today.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 03:06 PM

OK, Blogging.
Hope, this one is for you:

Originally Posted By: Jefe
Wife just called. Asked how my day was, I asked about hers. She asked about the kids day. That was pretty much it.


I should correct this. She actually sent a text that said: "Call me if the girls are asleep." So I called her.
Yes Hope, it does appear that she is trying to communicate. She said at the end of the call that she just wanted to check in on the girls, but if that was the truth she wouldn't have waited till she knew they would be asleep to send a text like that.

She then texted a little, an hour after the call, just mostly money questions.

There were several voice/text interchanges this morning as well. Keep in mind, I almost NEVER initiate any conversation, I let her do it. Only times lately that I have done so are the 2 of the 3 days she hasn't called to tell me how her day went.

Transcript from this morning following a call she made 20 minutes prior (to speak with the girls):

W: I told you we are going full days on the weekends now right?
W: As soon as we get these new drivers trained we will go back to A/B schedules.

M: Yes. You're going to be tired.
W: Yes. I already am just thinking about it.
M: I bet so
M: & W: {banking questions and answers}
M: I hope y'alls trucks are in good repair and have good tires and whatnot. Be careful out there in this rain today.
W: Yes I usually drive a new one.
M: You get a different truck everyday?
W: Sometimes because I'm not assigned yet
M: When are you going to be assigned?

No reply.

She is clearly reaching out for communication but wants it short. So I don't know what the he11 she wants.

For the rest of you guys, the only thing in this I see as pursuing is that I didn't end the conversation first, I let her. I normally do.
Posted By: theoden

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 03:30 PM

Jefe,

This whole situation is exhausting and will drain you emotionally and physically. Try and take care of yourself. Easier said than done. Detaching is hard. Right now the ONLY thing that matters is getting your wife back -- I get it. I was there. Hard to believe I could even function.

Not knowing what to do makes it worse. Not knowing how long your wife will remain in Limbo, chasing after other men, away from her daughters.

Your wife is acting in a way that is damaging to you and your children. I suggest you make plans to secure your daughters' safety, security and future with you. See a lawyer. Start logging evidence of any infidelity, her time with the kids, etc.

At some point Jefe, if this doesn't resolve itself soon, you will need to start listening to Starsky very closely. The "nicing" your wife back into the marriage is not sustainable for long -- you will collapse from exhaustion. Starksy saved his own marriage and has seen hundreds of people on here walk the same path you have. Trust him on this.

My hope is that one day you'll wake up and realize, "My daughters and I deserve better than this" and take steps to secure a good life and future for your family on YOUR terms WITH OR WITHOUT your wife. You may still be open to your wife returning, but instead of scrambling around trying to figure out how to be the perfect husband (trained seal act) and blaming yourself for all this mess, you'll be resolved in moving forward and living a great life regardless of what your wife does or doesn't do.

Your mindset is to remove your wife from the equation and move forward AS IF she isn't going to be in the picture. These may be slow steps, but they need to be taken to protect your girls. Your wife may not be aware of these steps. She may only sense a few of them. She will slowly get the sense that you are moving forward and she either gets on the Jefe express, or she's going to miss the boat (to mix a metaphor or two).

Right now, your wife is treating you like an option, while you are making her a priority. This dynamic is debilitating to you and unattractive to your wife. I know there's something vaguely romantic about you keeping the home-fires burning, being the rock, saving the family and being all "Christ-like" while your wife wanders off in a far country meeting men in bars, neglecting her daughters. If she's sowing her wild oats, this may be a long-haul, and there's no guarantee your wife will snap out of it while you "stand". My ex dropped the bomb in 2006 and only got worse. Her last two boyfriends were ex-cons and one of them had a drug problem. My main goal eventually was protecting myself and my children.

My prayers are with you.

Theoden

Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 03:56 PM

I get no sense of oat sowing and I base this on the fact she did that when she was young, we both did, and based on our track record together. She running from herself and that can't sustain itself for long either.

You are correct, though. The ONLY thing that matters is putting this family back together. But I am listening.
Posted By: Bunches

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 03:57 PM

^^^^^Totally second all of this. I just went through a year of not being able to follow advice because I couldn't get over my need to be the 'nice guy'. It doesn't help and isn't attractive and delays your recovery. Listen to these guys, I wish I had.
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 04:48 PM

I'm just hurting, alot. I'll pull out of it, I just need some time to regroup.

This is not the life I wanted for my children. I simply can't believe that this is the life my wife wanted for them either. I hurts to believe that this is what she wants to teach her daughters about being a woman, a wife, and a mother. This IS NOT the woman I fell in love with.

I'm hearing what you are all saying, just give me a minute...
Posted By: Jefe

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 05:19 PM

Guess I'm setting a new record for how fast I can fill a thread to 100 posts. Less than a week on this one.

The new one:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2504477&#Post2504477
Posted By: FunDad

Re: Need help. Jefe's confused pt 4 - 11/05/14 07:35 PM


Hey Jefe - The detaching really does get easier the more you force yourself to do it. I was setting up myself for hurt in a few ways however and maybe you can avoid it. I had some pictures of W around, that would trigger the pain and hurt. I put them up, so I would see them when I wanted to. I used to look at her FB page often, I stopped. I realized I'm missing fun time with the kids, I started doing more stuff we enjoyed. The payoffs of that are amazing: smiles that daddy read me a story; notes that say I love you; son's that want to play with you; plans for the future pop up with the kids show up and it's great. Get your favorite music available and get into to it. Pandora is great. Go back to the Jimmy Evans website also, he's got lot's of great stuff. Most importantly, don't spend too much time alone in the cave of despair. If you need some good stories to listen too, look up Garrison Keilor, he's an amazing broadcaster that will life your spirits for sure. Above all don't fear, realize who's in control, what your purpose is, and what faith in Him means.
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