A new thread, a new day.
Jefe
Just caught up on your Sitch ... just a couple questions as I do not see you mention them.
What are your GAL's 180's?? I see you are using the 37, and PMA ... and it does seem she baits a reaction out of you , just an observation/question ... what would happen if it were you out doing something fun that you have not done before ??
CaliGuy, great questions. I'll get to them later on this evening. I have a thought process in my head that I gained from another thread that I want to follow before I loose it.
But my concern is that I am giving her more opptys to cake eat when she lies on me or when we have fun together. If there were no A, I would agree with you. But with the A in play, it is just cake eating. With that said, I also need to make sure she sees compassion and love at the same time.
She knows that the road back home is paved should she choose to end the A. But, I will and am pursuing a D since to date, she has elected to stay in the A.
I don't have anywhere near the level of communication or positive time with my wife. I'm sure my wife knows beyond a doubt that I don't want a divorce. I don't know that she knows that the road home is paved and smooth or how to appropriately convey that to her. Honestly... I'm not sure I have paved and smoothed the road correctly...
Just caught up on your Sitch ... just a couple questions as I do not see you mention them.
What are your GAL's 180's?? I see you are using the 37, and PMA ... and it does seem she baits a reaction out of you , just an observation/question ... what would happen if it were you out doing something fun that you have not done before ??
I'm working on GAL. I'd love to go do something I've never done before, think I will schedule something very soon. I haven't finished the DB book yet so I'm still struggling with the whole 180 concept. I saw a 180 thread here but the 180's just looked like a reworded version of the 37 so I'm clearly missing something that I'm sure to discover when I finish the book.
The weekends are by far the hardest around here.
The weekends are by far the hardest around here.
Yep.
Read DR. I found it more relevant to my sitch anyway. Especially the section on "If s/he won't end the affair".
I haven't had the opportunity to purchase/order it yet. Maybe next week. You're like the 10th person to recommend it so I guess I better.
Man, I think I just set us back several steps.
We just had a horrible phone conversation. I did not keep a good PMA or anything. I think I just blew it completely.
Man my heart hurts.
I got these 2 text messages after our final phone covo this morning:
"We are not together anymore and will not be anymore. I will that the girls where I choose when I want. The same goes for you. I will not be asking or telling you about where I take them. They will always be safe with me. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they can't be around them."
"We will get a divorce ASAP just saying so please stop trying to win me over. I don't want your opinions on anything."
I was trying to set boundaries on some things and she exploded. We have yet to even discuss the issue that got us here and today when it was mentioned she now denies that it ever happened. This guy this happened with has a shack up girlfriend that just had his third child Sept 2nd. I want to call her and let her know so badly what is going on but I know in my heart it would only cause mega problems. On top of that, this morning she blamed the entire ordeal on me. If i had just been different none of this would have happened. She wouldn't have done what she did. (I drove her to do it, basically.) I know intellectually this is stupid, but it still cuts deep.
Really freaked out now. I know that I am supposed to detach and move forward as if I am moving ahead with my life anyway and I know as long as fear grips me I have already lost but this is not where I wanted to be. I have been lying awake all night last night thinking about this guy and what happened and how long it has been going on. Did not help my situation at all this morning.
She'll be here in 30 minutes to pick up the girls and take them to a party. Not looking forward to this interaction.
That went OK. She started the picking and comments but I quickly established boundaries. I'm not being very good at this "Loving Detachment" presently.
I feel so hopeless and overwhelmed at the moment. A flood of emotions, thoughts, questions. Our situation is horribly difficult and entangled.
I wish these seemingly little interactions did not send me reeling like they do. I guess its a sign of not being detached very well.
HA, and she "unfriended" me on Facebook apparently this morning. Because I now have people texting and messaging me to see whats going on. How utterly childish. Didn't really want to have to deal with my friends and family this way.
There will always be setbacks, Jefe. No one does this perfectly. Don't beat yourself up. She's going to have to figure this out on her own. You never had any control over that. If you have Intel on the man she's with, though, maybe you should tell her out of concern for her well being and not to change her mind about you.
I posted the full story of our marriage as I know it here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2496325&#Post2496325I didn't want to post a wall of text in this thread so I started one just for it.
is she threatening to take your children somewhere where you can't find them?
if so, I would suggest a custody plan asap...and go for full custody.
It doesn't matter if you are not the biological father to your D7 either...you are on her birth certificate and are the parent of record
She not threatening to "take" them just doesn't want to have to discuss where she takes them when she has them. In other words she wants to be able to take the both to visit OM1 and not have to tell me about it or discuss it with me.
W just left after dropping the kids off. She took them to a movie after church today. Stayed detached, cordial.
Anyone ever notice the look in their WAS's eyes where you just know they miss their old life but they are just so dug in they don't know how to come back?
I met my now wife as well during my first marriage and like you I handled my first marriage poorly. There was multiple affairs while we were stationed in Alaska and I stuck through it. But many things kept piling up. My first deployment to Iraq was ugly and I needed time to adjust when I got back. I didnt have the strength to keep the marriage working as I had for the last 14 years prior. (marrried at 17 because she became pregnant.)W2 and current wife was a friend that I eventually had an EA and when I left my wife I went to her. Things were rough when I went to Iraq my second time shortly after the first. She had the baby premature and things were rough from there. She was a WAW 6 months after second deployment. We pieced things I changed a ton and things went well for a few years till now. So I feel your pain. God had blessed my second union many times but I feel the inner turmoil from war and the way i did my first divorce wrong stuck with me some. It also though makes me even more resolved not to let this M end without a fight. Will be praying for you.
God had blessed my second union many times but I feel the inner turmoil from war and the way i did my first divorce wrong stuck with me some. It also though makes me even more resolved not to let this M end without a fight. Will be praying for you.
Thank you CMS. Its always good to hear from someone that can relate very closely. I absolutely feel convicted to not let this marriage end without a good fight, God has weighed that heavy on my head. I can attest, you don't walk away from a divorce, no matter how bad the marriage, unscathed. It leaves indelible impressions on you for the rest of your life.
I am following your situation as well. Prayers for you too.
Hi Jefe,
I've been reading your posts for a while including the one you wrote on the infidelity blog.
No doubt you are in an emotional mess. Who wouldn't be? You have been on a very hard road. I admire how hard you are working to keep your marriage together.
I have been waiting to comment because I wanted you to give insight regarding the personal interaction between you and your wife. But you don't discuss your actual relationship. Are you aware of this?
What I mean is you haven't given any insight into how do/did you talk/interact? How did you conflict resolve? Or did you resolve conflict? What were your wife's primary issues with you? I know there was OM but this wasn't the only issue in your marriage.
You made reference to other issues. What were they? And when I ask "what were they" I want to know "what were the issues SHE complained about" not the issues concerning you.
For example, was she worried about money, security, drinking, etc. Studies show infidelity in women is different than infidelity in men. Most women are unfaithful because they seek to supplement something missing in their current relationship (love, security, excitement, etc.)
What was she saying that you weren't hearing? Keep in mind: I am not excusing her behavior. But if you don't know what was happening in your marriage then how can you fix it if she returns? You will be in the exact same place this time next year.
Something you said in your first blog struck me. You said you wish you could go back in time and do things different. What things?
Now on to specific issues Your wife said:
"We are not together anymore and will not be anymore. I will that the girls where I choose when I want. The same goes for you. I will not be asking or telling you about where I take them. They will always be safe with me. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they can't be around them."
"We will get a divorce ASAP just saying so please stop trying to win me over. I don't want your opinions on anything."
As an outside observer...this is really random. What prompted such harshness by her? Or is this normal conversation between the two of you? Do not say that she is just being mean or spiteful. She has had many opportunities to be mean and spiteful but she waited until now to take the shot.
Why?
Get completely honest and we will be able to roll up our sleeves and get to work on your marriage.
Jefe, have been following you of late. I know all too well the inner turmoil and inability to maintain detachment. It takes practice and we all get better over time.
I am not doing very well myself. D happens in one week. I don't know if anything I did could have stopped this train since BD, but the DB'n has helped and if the STBX has doubt's in the future, they may stem from something as simple as a single incident where you got it right.
I'm here in DFW, too. So you are not alone in that sense, either!
Jefe -- You are always so good at posting on other people's threads so I wanted to check in to give you some support. Just read your back story. Wow. That is a lot to absorb. Even though you say that your relationship has been good, it does sound like your W is not a stable, trustworthy spouse.
I admire you stepping in to raise D7, however she was in a needy spot when she married you, which is some cause for concern.
Now is the time to take care of yourself and the kids.
I'm sure it's difficult not knowing where they are, or where she is taking them. As long as the girls are not anxious or confused about it, try not to get involved. Step away and detach from W as best you can.
None of us here want our M's to end. But when I read these stories about WAS it makes me think that, even though we contributed to the demise of our M, we deserve better.
Thank you, Ahoy. Not that you are, but I knew after I posted the larger story some 2X4's would be coming my way. I certainly had my head in the sand or just flat out chose to "live" with some flaws and, in part, these are the consequences of that. That being said, I made a vow to stand for my wife and my marriage until God says don't. I perhaps underestimated the amount of sacrifice this marriage was going to be but I went into it with my eyes open. Which may mean I have no room to complain about my marriage at all, who knows. I'm rambling now and have changed this paragraph several times so...
I am thankful that I have the girls 99% of the time. I am thankful she has decided to spend more time with them instead of other things. No, I don't want my marriage to end but I am not in control here.
Thanks Ahoy, your opinion means alot.
Now if I could just figure out this detaching thing. I need sleep so badly.
My Christian MC suggested a product called Sleep Assure. You'll need to go to Whole Foods or Sprouts or a Health food store to get it. Melatonin, GABA, Valerian root. Nothing addictive or harmful.
If you're like me, you can get to sleep but not stay there (I've been averaging 5 hrs/night). This helps. I got 6.5 last night on a half dose.
"If you're like me, you can get to sleep but not stay there (I've been averaging 5 hrs/night). This helps. I got 6.5 last night on a half dose."
That's it exactly but I'm getting nowhere near 5 hours. Usually 3, 4 if I'm lucky. I'm out as soon as my head hits the pillow then, insanely restless, thoughts out of control, horrible dreams, sometimes just instantly wide awake for seemingly no reason.
I'm going to the store today, thanks!
Jefe, I had that problem 6 months ago when my WAW was in an active A. Sometimes only 2 hours of fitful sleep. I'd have a couple of glasses of wine and take 6 or 7 melatonin pills and read DR for a while then fall asleep only to wake up a couple hours later with all the A thoughts going through my head until morning.
It takes time but what's necessary is thought-stopping exercises, learning to detach as best as possible, and focusing on things in your life that are not in turmoil. And also pulling away from the WAW. I found that when I pulled away, noticeably, it would draw her in. Takes a couple of weeks but it's noticeable. However then I would get excited that thing are improving and blow it by putting pressure on her and pursuing which just drove her away again. It takes a lot of discipline and it's totally counterintuitive.
Make a plan. Here's mine for reference:
MY PLAN TO HAVE A GREAT LIFE
I am doing this to create a great life for myself. To be the best human being I can be. To be generous, loving, caring, compassionate, honest and open in all relationships with others. To be financially successful and independent, so I can share my wealth and life with those for whom I care.
1. Change myself:
- Learn to keep emotionally present at all times – aware of my emotions and urges
- Control my emotions and urges and think about the consequences of my words before I utter them
- Get out of debt & manage money better
- Learn to let go and let the process unfold by itself
- Be more generous, less selfish
- Listen better and hear better
- Slow down, stop rushing.
- Eat meals slowly savouring the experience.
- In personal affairs, be less persistent, let things happen in due course
- Understand where I failed to meet my partner’s needs in the past so as not to repeat those mistakes in the future
- Release the need to control people or the circumstances. The only thing I can control is myself and even that’s a challenge at times.
2. Be open to reconnect with my wife:
- Stick to the solution-based approach
- Listen to what she says every time she opens her mouth and reflect back for full understanding
- Validate her thoughts, even if I totally disagree. Just acknowledge what she says
- Give her space
- When she comes to me be kind, gentle and loving but firm and strong.
- Detach from the outcome
In doing all these things I must remain:
- Calm in my demeanor
- Constant in my actions
- Consistent in my actions
- Committed to the process
When in crisis, consult with this plan, not my feelings. Be patient. Let the process take its due course. Have faith that by sticking to this plan the goal will eventually be achieved.
Hope414 - I didn't see your post yesterday. You are still on moderation so your posts aren't showing up in real-time. Let me get the kids to bed and I will reply to all of your inquiries in detail. I want to really sit and think hard about it before I answer.
“I have been waiting to comment because I wanted you to give insight regarding the personal interaction between you and your wife. But you don't discuss your actual relationship. Are you aware of this?”
“What I mean is you haven't given any insight into how do/did you talk/interact? How did you conflict resolve? Or did you resolve conflict? What were your wife's primary issues with you? I know there was OM but this wasn't the only issue in your marriage.”
“You made reference to other issues. What were they? And when I ask "what were they" I want to know "what were the issues SHE complained about" not the issues concerning you.
For example, was she worried about money, security, drinking, etc. Studies show infidelity in women is different than infidelity in men. Most women are unfaithful because they seek to supplement something missing in their current relationship (love, security, excitement, etc.)
What was she saying that you weren't hearing? Keep in mind: I am not excusing her behavior. But if you don't know what was happening in your marriage then how can you fix it if she returns? You will be in the exact same place this time next year.”
1) Lack of flexibility and willingness to compromise in dealing with OM1’s family and visitation.
2) Constant complaining/griping – She can’t do anything right
3) Lack of intimacy / romance the way she needs and desires it
4) Jealousy (of OM1)
5) Lack of help with the household chores
In the early days my drinking was a huge problem but thanks to God I’ve been sober almost 4.5 years. In the last year I left my stable job with the stable income and we started our own business. The money is not steady and I underestimated how utterly un-secure this was going to make her feel. It has been a dream of mine for many years, I think we can make it no problem, and this is just a normal start-up stress and tension but she is not dealing with it well at all. I told her 2 weeks ago that if she wanted me to just give it up and find a real job with steady income that I would gladly do it because she is more important to me than this silly business. I have had several offers since I left my gig last year and finding a job won’t be a problem. I am negotiating a possible deal as we speak. Just need to hammer out some of the perks and growth details and make a final decision on the offer. “Something you said in your first blog struck me. You said you wish you could go back in time and do things different. What things?”
I have been absolutely head over heels in love with my wife since 2 weeks after we started dating, I have just neglected to make sure she KNEW that.“Now on to specific issues Your wife said:
"We are not together anymore and will not be anymore. I will that the girls where I choose when I want. The same goes for you. I will not be asking or telling you about where I take them. They will always be safe with me. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they can't be around them."
"We will get a divorce ASAP just saying so please stop trying to win me over. I don't want your opinions on anything."
As an outside observer...this is really random. What prompted such harshness by her? Or is this normal conversation between the two of you? Do not say that she is just being mean or spiteful. She has had many opportunities to be mean and spiteful but she waited until now to take the shot.
Why?”
There is a ton of stuff going on in our lives, from the time we were toddlers on, that contribute to this dynamic but if we could just fix how I communicate with her I think the rest of it would take a back seat.
“Get completely honest and we will be able to roll up our sleeves and get to work on your marriage.”
Peter, that's awesome. Thanks for the map. I'm working on that next!
Hope414, I've just been following up on your posts on some of the other threads... I like your insight, directness and candor. I am also fearful of the 2X4's coming my way.
I want to change my habits and behavior, so let them fly.
Jefe, I wouldn’t worry about 2x4’s. You admit you have responsibility in the destruction of your relationship and you are willing to fix it. That’s pretty powerful.
Let’s start with what is probably her most crucial issue based on your assessment. Can you see what it is?
Studies show women need two things in a marriage: Love and security. Did you notice you pointed out both are lacking in your marriage.
Let me address love first.
You are absolutely head over heels in love with your wife but, according to you, neglected to let her know this. (Husbands love your wife even as Christ loved the Church…) Christ never stopped telling the Church how much He loved them. Even when He was hanging on the cross. Does your wife know you have this kind of unconditional love for her?
Love is a verb. A verb implies action. Anyone can say “I love you” but we recognize genuine love by actions.
Which brings me to security.
As much as you love your wife she may have been giving you signals that she was uneasy about you leaving a stable job in pursuit of a dream. Although you believe you can make it with no problem…women with children see the world completely different than men.
I am not here to crush your dream. But help you see life through her eyes.
A stable job means a stable income. Stable income means a stable home for her children. Food on the table, clothing, doctor appointments, vacations and the life a woman expects when she marries. This isn’t limited to your wife. This is a universal truth about most women. As much as we like to think we have progressed—in reality--we resent our husbands when they force us to worry about money.
I wish it wasn’t true but it is.
Then you handled leaving your dream all wrong. Here is what you did:
When you told her (2 weeks ago) that you would give it up and find a real job with a steady income if this is what SHE wanted…what she probably heard you say was:
“As another example of how I let you crush my dreams in order to save my family you soul-sucking witch—I will give up this dream. But this time you have to ask me nicely.” (Please say in your best Jack Nicholson voice because this is probably how she heard it.)
Maybe you could approach this conversation again but do it with her needs in mind.
“I realize I have been selfish. It didn’t occur to me that while pursuing my supposed dream that I was putting stress on you and my family. I was deceived. Please know that any “dream” (make sure you say it with air quotes) that turns your life into a nightmare isn’t my dream. My dream is to be a great husband. My dream is to be a great father. Because without my family I don’t have a dream. So why don’t we discuss what your dream is and how I can make your dreams come true?”
This lets her know she is loved, her opinion is valued and your family is your dream. But, the most important part of this conversation is designed to change her vision from “the relationship is ending” to “we have a future.”
She may respond with, “I don’t know. I don’t have any dreams of us anymore.”
If she says this then you say:
“That’s okay. I can dream big enough for the two of us.”
Then tell her one of your dreams for the future.
Make sure it involves the family because it will be easier for her to envision. Maybe it’s dancing at your grandchildren’s wedding. But make it a big dream. Make it vivid. Make it real. What is she wearing? What are you thinking when you take her in your arms and dance with her? Do you give a toast at the wedding? What do you say?
Keep this formula in mind: Cultivate everything that draws you together as a couple. Dispose of everything that divides you as a couple.
Let me address the “yeller” and the “lasher” issue. Yellers usually yell because they don’t feel heard. Lashers usually lash because they are still angry.
Yellers can be easier to deal with if they are “true yellers.” By that I mean--they just want to be heard and understood in the moment. They don’t want to manipulate the situation but they want their opinion to be valued. A yeller enters dangerous territory when they use yelling as a tool for terror, manipulation or abuse. Buy a lot of yellers are “in the moment” people. They say things they instantly regret and spend a lot of time apologizing for things they shouldn’t have said “in the moment.”
Lashers tend to be more complicated. Lashers rarely say what they feel in the moment and then find alternative avenues to vent anger. Their anger baffles yellers. For example, lashers are late picking up the kids and when a yellers says, “What kept you?” a lasher will respond, “Are you saying I’m a terrible mother! Well, you’re not that great of a father, either!!!” Huh? The yeller thought he was asking about traffic. How did this become a conversation about parenting?
Lashers harvest anger. They massage it and think about it for a while. This is why a yeller MUST go back and apologize over and over and over again to a lasher until the lasher is completely healed. The way a yeller knows a lasher is “over it” is when a lasher can joke about the argument.
Regarding her issues about the OM and parenting your child—take all those off the table. Those aren’t “her” issues. Those are a family issue now. Your options are limited on this.
And, last but not least: Romance. What is her idea of romance? You were pretty good at romancing her once because (out of all the men in the world) she choose you. So we know you know what she likes. In fact, you know better than any man in the world. Are you aware of this?
Again, studies show a woman’s need for romance increases after marriage. So we need to put you into turbo-romance mode.
Wow, Hope. This is a ton to digest in one brief sitting. Who are you? You have got some formal training and background in this, if my Spidey senses don't decieve me. I appreciate the time and effort you put into your reply.
I'm going to respond to the last portion right now as I need to re-read, ruminate, and re-read the rest of it again before I respond.
And, last but not least: Romance. What is her idea of romance? You were pretty good at romancing her once because (out of all the men in the world) she choose you. So we know you know what she likes. In fact, you know better than any man in the world. Are you aware of this?
Again, studies show a woman’s need for romance increases after marriage. So we need to put you into turbo-romance mode.
If I answered off the cuff whether I knew this or not I'd say no. But after thinking about our first year together, yes I do completely know that I know better than ANY man in the world, including OM1. I think of the movie Family Man with Nicolas Cage and Téa Leoni. He tries telling her on the stairs what a dirty girl she is and how hot she makes him and that just shuts her down, but later in the movie when he looks her in the eyes and tells her how beautiful she is and always has been and how he never stopped loving her and she just melts...that's my wife. I don't think she'd shut down at the dirty girl part but she most certainly responds the the fawning attention. Unfortunately I did most of my loving fawning when I was drinking and I found it harder to be that sincere sober. I still absolutely feel that way, just harder for me to express it. Guess I'd better figure that out before it's completely too late.
Thank you, again Hope. I will reply more tonight.
"We are not together anymore and will not be anymore. I will that the girls where I choose when I want. The same goes for you. I will not be asking or telling you about where I take them. They will always be safe with me. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they can't be around them."
"We will get a divorce ASAP just saying so please stop trying to win me over.
Since Jefe's wife just stated this to him this week, wouldn't "romancing her" just be seen as pursuit, and not respecting her wishes?
Starsky
"We are not together anymore and will not be anymore. I will that the girls where I choose when I want. The same goes for you. I will not be asking or telling you about where I take them. They will always be safe with me. Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they can't be around them."
"We will get a divorce ASAP just saying so please stop trying to win me over.
Since Jefe's wife just stated this to him this week, wouldn't "romancing her" just be seen as pursuit, and not respecting her wishes?
Starsky
This is also true.
You know what else baffles me?
I just got off the phone with her (She called me) and she was telling me about one of the jobs she had applied for and said it sounds like she got it. I congratulated her and said that was great, she replied yes it is good, that's more money in OUR pocket. I hate that I analyze every little word down to the last pronoun, but I tend to believe, for the most part, that we choose the words we use more carefully that people may think.
Like the BD night I found the text messages and she said "I'm sorry you had to see that". Not; I'm sorry I did it, or I'm sorry that I hurt you, but I'm sorry I got caught. Anyway, I digress...
Very true Jefe,
My W has said the exact same things, "I'm sorry how this happened, I'm sorry you had to find out like this, I'm sorry you saw that"
Never once has she said I'm sorry that I did this.
Birds of a feather....the longer I'm on here, the more similarities I see between different situations. Almost could write a book
Dev
Hi Starsky,
Romance and pursuit are not the same things. Romance is the ability to connect with someone on a level which touches their heart. Pursuit is a chase.
Romance is meeting a really amazing woman. Finding out what her favorite flowers are. Finding out what her favorite food is. Then inviting her to dinner at a restaurant known for this cuisine, picking her up (on time) with her favorite flowers in your hand.
Pursuit is meeting a really hot woman. Taking her to a club where you pour alcohol down her all night in an attempt to lower her inhibitions so she will have sex with you.
In other words: Romance is about her. Pursuit is about you.
Jefe,
Let me ask you something…
When she told you that “you were not together anymore and would not be together anymore”
…was this really the FIRST time she said something like this? Really?
If not, then I tend to think these words were thrown at you more for effect. “NOTICE ME!” More than “I want a divorce.”
You said she is a lasher and this text was sent after an argument. I’ll bet you yelled before she lashed. And she lashed very effectively. She sent you a really mean text and unfriended you on FB. Ouch. This is why I take the words less seriously than if it was said during a counseling session.
However make no mistake. I still take her threats seriously. The #1 problem with lashers is they don’t know when to stop and they don’t know how to “let it go.” So you have to shut it down. And by “shut it down” I mean you have to take control and stop the escalation.
Tonight is a good example of how you took control of the marriage by not allowing escalation. You were put in a situation perfect for escalation but you didn’t escalate. Instead of quizzing her about the job—you congratulated her.
Now, learn how to take it another step. Celebrate with her. Even if she doesn’t get the job—celebrate how wonderful she is. Send an e-card (funny-not romantic), or flowers, but something uniquely you and her—that says:
“Hey, you are amazing! Every company in America should hire you!” You should consider making it a family affair.
Have a “mommy is amazing” dinner and everyone gets to say why mommy is amazing.
Whether she gets the job or doesn’t get the job…she will remember the support she gets from you during this time. And while you are giving her this support…maybe you can throw in a little romance.
Same for my H who has said sorry for lying, and sorry for hurting me. But not sorry for having the A. I don't think he feels regret about that at all.....yet....
Love is a verb. A verb implies action. Anyone can say “I love you” but we recognize genuine love by actions.
You are absolutely head over heels in love with your wife but, according to you, neglected to let her know this. (Husbands love your wife even as Christ loved the Church…) Christ never stopped telling the Church how much He loved them. Even when He was hanging on the cross. Does your wife know you have this kind of unconditional love for her?
My wife knows that I have unconditional love for her, it's just not been the kind of love she needs. The kind of love that should be filling her love tank.
“As another example of how I let you crush my dreams in order to save my family you soul-sucking witch—I will give up this dream. But this time you have to ask me nicely.” (Please say in your best Jack Nicholson voice because this is probably how she heard it.)
Maybe you could approach this conversation again but do it with her needs in mind.
“I realize I have been selfish. It didn’t occur to me that while pursuing my supposed dream that I was putting stress on you and my family. I was deceived. Please know that any “dream” (make sure you say it with air quotes) that turns your life into a nightmare isn’t my dream. My dream is to be a great husband. My dream is to be a great father. Because without my family I don’t have a dream. So why don’t we discuss what your dream is and how I can make your dreams come true?”
I would do anything for her to feel like she was being heard at this point. While I don't think it came across as extreme as above I do think she is
deeply troubled by it. It humors me that OM1 has no/crappy job and that's more attractive at the moment.
I would love the opportunity to reword it like you have but I'm with Starsky on the timing of this. She is still in super pissed mode when she talks to me. She called last night (see previous post ^^) and was cordial but not receptive to hearing anything, I can promise that.
Yellers can be easier to deal with if they are “true yellers.” By that I mean--they just want to be heard and understood in the moment. They don’t want to manipulate the situation but they want their opinion to be valued. A yeller enters dangerous territory when they use yelling as a tool for terror, manipulation or abuse. Buy a lot of yellers are “in the moment” people. They say things they instantly regret and spend a lot of time apologizing for things they shouldn’t have said “in the moment.”
Lashers tend to be more complicated. Lashers rarely say what they feel in the moment and then find alternative avenues to vent anger. Their anger baffles yellers. For example, lashers are late picking up the kids and when a yellers says, “What kept you?” a lasher will respond, “Are you saying I’m a terrible mother! Well, you’re not that great of a father, either!!!” Huh? The yeller thought he was asking about traffic. How did this become a conversation about parenting?
Have you been hiding in our closet the last 5 years? Yes, this is it
EXACTLY.
Regarding her issues about the OM and parenting your child—take all those off the table. Those aren’t “her” issues. Those are a family issue now. Your options are limited on this.
And yet, I feel like this is the stuff that's going to have to be dealt with for me to feel comfortable. Or maybe I need to just be uncomfortable for a while and let God sort this out. IDK. This is a pretty important topic right here.
Oh, where to start. I'm not positive she's with a man at the moment. There is OM1 and a possible OM2. I hadn't really wanted to go this route but I am seeing that we may have to.
My wife's father left her mother (never married) before the wife was born and never spoke to her or acknowledged her again. My father left when I was 4 and I have had next to no contact with him since. I was sexually abused as a young child and I believe my wife was as well.
Now on to the story...
When I first met my current wife I was still married to my first wife. W1 and I had a horrible relationship and we did everything wrong to each other. She had affairs - I had addictions, there was no God to speak of and we were poisonous towards one another. We had separated before and it looked like we were going to divorce for sure. She would constantly denigrate me and accuse me of cheating or "going to the topless bar', on a near daily basis. Neither of which I was doing. It got to the point that I was contemplating having an affair since I was constantly in trouble for it anyway.
My current wife, (W2) was the cousin of a close friend and co-worker. She came in to apply for a job where I worked and I was spellbound. I couldn't keep my eyes off of her. Eventually we discussed that we had a mutual attraction for one another. We met at the bar down the street one day after work and she told me that there was absolutely no way we were even going to have any further discussions past work related topics as long as I was still together with W1.
Initially, I had absolutely no desire to leave my marriage even though it was pretty bad and W1's sexual indiscretions were becoming more and more problematic and less hidden. W1 would constantly tell me day after day how sorry I was going to be when she left me, "you know I'm leaving you soon" or "I'm going to leave you and take everything". I must admit that after future W2 expressed interest in me, I had little interest in working on what I viewed to be a hopeless situation. So one day when the berating started, I packed a bag and left and moved into my rehearsal studio for 30-45 days or more.
It was at this time that future W2 and I started dating and that she brought me right to God's doorstep.
I am not proud of how I handled my first marriage at the time, how I left or how I dealt with W1. God was obviously not pleased with me either because I was in fact still married and he certainly did not bless the union between future W2 and I, as we were split-up in about 8 months.
During our split, I made amends to W1 and we patched some wounds and repaired some hurts, completed our divorce and left things on a better note. The now xW even offered some counsel on how to possibly win W2 back. Even going as far as saying that she released me, and now that the divorce was complete she expected that I might find favor in a relationship with W2.
About 2 months after I split with future W2 she called me letting me know that she was pregnant and that the "father" (we'll call him Baby Daddy or OM1 for short) basically kicked her to the curb and denied the child. (In hindsight, he had another girlfriend that he already had another child with and she was also pregnant with their 2nd at about the same duration as future w1, so he was cake eating). I still had strong feelings for the future wife so I offered to take her back and raise the child as my own. Future W2 resisted at first and even ran back to OM1 once before he kicked her to the curb again.
During this time, I had lost a ton of weight, sobered up (briefly) and had really worked on myself. I worked hard at winning her back. My xW1 even called future W2 asking her what was wrong with her for not jumping on this opportunity. (Not my idea at all, xW1 did this without my knowledge or request) After that call, future W2 decided that maybe this was the best course. We were married 4 months later. And D7 was born later that year.
OM1 has been a sticking point our entire marriage as we have never agreed on the best course of action. She wanted full disclosure from day one and since he refused to speak to her or knowledge the child she wanted to sue him for paternity. I wanted to just explain things when D7 got older and just let her have an intact family without all the drama. I was there at her birth, I'm on the birth certificate and she has my last name. She still to this day does not understand that I am not her father. Even though W2 attempted to explain it to her this past June.
Until 2011 the only contact with baby daddy / OM1 has been through his extended family. His mother, and sister mainly. Towards the end of 2011 W2 and I separated. I was very similar to this time and while we were apart she admitted to having an affair. She explained it as a one night thing. I have always suspected it was with OM1 becuase about a month after we started piecing she mentioned that OM1 and her had been talking about him visiting D7. When I found this out I politely asked her to please not have direct communication with him (partly because of my suspicions) and only schedule visits through his mother and that when the visited that it was never with the two of them alone. She agreed and deleted him from her phone on the spot.
In 2012 we struggled briefly and separated over visitation with OM1. Last year we almost separated because in working the steps with her sponsor, W2 realized we got married for the wrong reasons and she wanted out, then she decided she didn't.
At the beginning of this year W2 informed me that OM1's mother was moving out of state and she would have to deal with OM1 directly. I was not very thrilled with this idea but what could I do? At that time we had agreed on quarterly visits that were always in a neutral location although my wife was pushing for more.
Seriously so far this year our relationship had been really good. Or at least I thought so. Even with the minor hiccups.
In June W2 decided that she wanted to tell D7 the truth about OM1 and she wanted to do it right now. I wanted to wait until we sought counsel first but W2 not only insisted but she did it without me even being there for my daughter. Mind you, D7 thinks I am her only father at this point. I lost my cool and we had a big fight. After this I had been waiting for some strife to come my way and was starting to get very concerned by July as my wife was starting to become more and more stealthy and secretive with her conversations and her phone in general.
Jump to the evening of Aug 4. I came home late from work. I got the kids in bed and came to the living room where the wife asked if I was going to take a shower. A cue that she wanted to ML. When I got out of the shower her phone was on the nightstand going off. I grabbed it on my way to the living room when I looked down at the screen. A strange notification was on it that cause me to look and that is when I found the picture of OM1's erect penis in a message with both of them exchanging comments about what they'd like to do to each other. I brought the phone out with me and asked: "Do you want to tell me about your boyfriend?" She replied: "I can explain!" then started to back pedal until I showed her the picture. She violently responded, snatched the phone and hit me in the head on her way out of the room. She was gone the next day. I confirmed it was OM1 the next week and I'm pretty sure it was OM1 she had the affair with a couple of years back.
At this point OM1 is still with the same shack up girlfriend he had 7-8 years ago. His GF just had their 3rd child Sept 2nd (meaning they were sexting while she was pregnant). I dont think there has been a PA with OM1 but she did attempt to send a photo of D7 to OM1 using my phone last week and then tried to hide it. Which was a point of contention today.
We had been working towards reconciliation from about 2 weeks after BD until about September 5th or so. Before I found this place I had been watching the phone logs and knew she had met a possible OM2 that weekend and they had exchanged over 112 texts in a 6 day span. Over 65 in one night from 11:30 to 2 in the morning. So my suspensions were running high especially since she was starting to pull back away. Some other things were going on during that time frame that didn't help the situation.
And here we are today worse off than ever before.
The point behind this wall of text is to completely explain the dynamics of my situation as best I can. I still want my wife back home as much for me as for our children.
I am hoping to not answer this thread but just continue with my main thread here:
Not sure why you posted this on another thread but I will re-post it here for ease of reading.
May I translate what you just said when you said "My wife knows that I have unconditional love for her, it's just not been the kind of love she needs. The kind of love that should be filling her love tank."
Translation:
"I am completely aware that I am not displaying love the way my wife needs it. This is not because I do not love my wife. I do love my wife very much. I love her more than she will ever know. I guarantee this because I will not express it in a forum that she is comfortable in. However, this is not as important to me as continuing to display love in a manner that suits my comfort. It is my hope that someday my wife will understand me and my needs to the point that she can be fulfilled by the type of loving expressions that make me comfortable. In the meantime, I will be surprised when other men meet her emotional needs."
IDK, Cadet, it was just so large I didn't want it to get lost in the meaningless blogging/journaling that I do, I guess.
I got a string of texts this morning starting about 3:45 or so from the W. Just waffling back and forth on: "hey I'll take the girls today" and "they can spend the night this night", then retracting it then not... We've been here before almost 6 weeks ago when she texted early in the morning that she loves me and misses me and wished she was perfect and wished that she never made mistakes. (God, how I'd give anything to be back in that place and time) Then later this morning she calls and still can't make up her mind. I don't think she's been sleeping much. Wish I knew what to do or say. I know I need to pull back more than ever. Its the advice I get and the advice I give. It still sounds counter productive some days. I didn't sleep worth crap last night, either. Mind a mess with worry, guilt, heartbreak, and grief. Thank God I went to bed early to try and offset the sleepless hours.
I sit and have useless, unproductive thought like wondering what she's doing and why she's doing it and if she misses us as much as we miss her. Did I pave the road back home smooth enough, did I remember to leave the light on. Does she know I forgive her and none of this at this point is so bad we can't pick up the pieces and move on?
Then I remember aliens took my wife away 3 months ago.
Just having a tearful morning, sorry people.
Well, wife just informed me that she gave her 2 weeks notice at the church where she works part time. presumably because they are putting pressure on her to reconcile the marriage and she's not going to have ANYONE tell her what to do right now.
I replied: OK, whatever you think is best.
She replied back: Right now it seems best. I can't tell the future I wish I could.
Whatever that means.
She fought so hard to get that job and for the first time in many years she was actually happy with her job. Makes me sad and concerned. Nobody left in her circle now that in OUR corner.
I am sorry to hear that Jefe. This process is so tough. The only explanation is that we need to view this as a drug addict who will make some very poor decisions before, if at all, stopping the addiction.
I've found that with my H - that he has pulled away from people who are supportive of our marriage and think his AR will be a disaster for him. I guess it is hard to be around people who are telling you things you don't want to hear whilst you are in "affair-land."
You sound very empathetic towards your W - I feel the same way (to a degree) with my H. But people have really encouraged me to balance this with what is okay and not okay for me. I couldn't say that I love him unconditionally. Because my continued love depends on him being fully committed to our M again, and ending the AR. I won't love him no matter what.
Sorry you aren't having a good day. Hope tomorrow is a better one. Often good follows bad I have found.
I really dislike how long it takes my posts to show up. Sorry about this Jefe. How long do people stay on monitoring status? It's been months.
Anyways, I am sorry to learn your wife has given her two weeks notice at the church. I felt her job at the church was a very positive thing for your marriage. It kept her connected to people with similar values.
You say her notice was given "presumably because they are putting pressure on her to reconcile the marriage and she's not going to have ANYONE tell her what to do right now."
Does this mean there is a possibility she might be able to keep her job if you became her knight in shining armor and fought for her?
Would she mind if you tried to fight for her job? By that I mean is this something she would appreciate you doing for her? Because this might be something in your control...if she wants it.
You could go to the Church and ask them to reconsider keeping your wife. You can be completely honest about the status of your marriage. She is estranged and you want to reconcile. You can tell them that you believe your marriage has a stronger chance of success if your wife works in a Christian environment with like-minded believers than in a secular environment where divorce is a normal behavior.
The worst thing they can say is no and no one is worse off. But if they say yes...then you just slayed a dragon for your wife.
Pretty impressive and very romantic.
I know that feeling. My W now only has people in her corner that I don't even know. Only her aunt is simultaneously in "her" and "our" corner.
Just checking in. Thanks for looking in on me and so many others!
I'll just chime in to say my wife has done the same thing. She's cut off everyone from her "former" life except for her parents. She's apparently embarrassed that she's divorcing me, but she'd rather just not face her old friends than do the right thing and end her affair. The fog is a perplexing thing. I wish there was some way to break through it.
My .02 on the topic .... My wife has really no one in her corner telling her the A was good ... I am under the impression its over and now she is working on her and I think in a stubborn way going to prove she can just be "alone" in the eys of everyone while secretly using me when she needs .. something I need to boundary up.
But when there is so many people in w WAS life not supporting the A , or even telling them they are wrong .. I think they are just out to prove a point vs really thinking about it ... seems that pride really gets inflated here along with stubbornness making the journey that much longer. That fog man ... that fog.
In the 2-3 weeks since I have found this site I have quit calling and texting her unless it is an absolute necessity having to do with kids, money or the cars and when I do it's very brief. I'm actually to the point where I don't really WANT to talk to her because nothing good seems to come from it. Seeing as how just this past Sat she sent the divorce texts that I posted a page or 2 back. Yet, she has found some stupid reason or another to call or text me. No 3 am texts today but she did call to see how it went with the kids this morning. She has never wondered before since the S. and several texts today asking how my grandmother is doing and other stuff.
I just want to look at her and ask, "What the he11 are we doing?!?"
Counter productive, I know.
The fog sux, Limbo sux.
Jefe
Like you would tell me, pull back. Detach. Don't try to read into it. I do the same and it just gets me spinning. It could be she is confused and rethinking her decision. It could be that she sees you pulling away and just wants to keep you in play. It could be to assuage her guilt...by asking about your grandmother, she shows herself that she is a nice person and not the "evil" person who is having an A.
Pray, detach and let God take over.
Hope, you're officially off moderation now so your stuff will show up in real time moving forward. Lots to digest but let me touch on it briefly.
Jefe,
Let me ask you something…
When she told you that “you were not together anymore and would not be together anymore”
…was this really the FIRST time she said something like this? Really?
If not, then I tend to think these words were thrown at you more for effect. “NOTICE ME!” More than “I want a divorce.”
You said she is a lasher and this text was sent after an argument. I’ll bet you yelled before she lashed. And she lashed very effectively. She sent you a really mean text and unfriended you on FB. Ouch. This is why I take the words less seriously than if it was said during a counseling session.
However make no mistake. I still take her threats seriously. The #1 problem with lashers is they don’t know when to stop and they don’t know how to “let it go.” So you have to shut it down. And by “shut it down” I mean you have to take control and stop the escalation.
Tonight is a good example of how you took control of the marriage by not allowing escalation. You were put in a situation perfect for escalation but you didn’t escalate. Instead of quizzing her about the job—you congratulated her.
No, not the first time at all. This is about the 3rd or 4th time and almost always in response to something I've said or done to call her out or question her. And no, she has no clue when to stop and will usually go for scorched earth before she lets up. I have tears streaming down my face for her because I fell so bad that I know she wishes she could take some things back and simply can't or doesn't know how. I also have not built a save haven for her to be able to confess or speak freely. My sponsor just said this morning that she probabally feels trapt. If she comes and tells me the truth about OM she thinks I am going to beat her up and if she just walks away and continues the cover-up, I am going to beat her up.
She sent me a text a few days before this separation took a darker tone about 5 weeks ago that said "you know I love you" and I responded no, I didn't know that. I think this speaks volumes for both of us.
Translation:
"I am completely aware that I am not displaying love the way my wife needs it. This is not because I do not love my wife. I do love my wife very much. I love her more than she will ever know. I guarantee this because I will not express it in a forum that she is comfortable in. However, this is not as important to me as continuing to display love in a manner that suits my comfort. It is my hope that someday my wife will understand me and my needs to the point that she can be fulfilled by the type of loving expressions that make me comfortable. In the meantime, I will be surprised when other men meet her emotional needs."
Re-translation, the old me would do just that, I am completely ready and willing to change. I just need a little guideance so I can measure up.
Would she mind if you tried to fight for her job? By that I mean is this something she would appreciate you doing for her? Because this might be something in your control...if she wants it.
You could go to the Church and ask them to reconsider keeping your wife. You can be completely honest about the status of your marriage. She is estranged and you want to reconcile. You can tell them that you believe your marriage has a stronger chance of success if your wife works in a Christian environment with like-minded believers than in a secular environment where divorce is a normal behavior.
She would mind very much. She would view this as controlling and it's part of what's pushing her farther away. I have been secretly fight for her job. But she is choosing to quit and my gut right now says honor that and put up zero fight and she will respect that more. She is expecting me to fight for it. And it always works against me.
Jefe, I have just been reading DR for the first time...very helpful. Someone said they learned to treat their spouse much as they would a neighbour - during 180/LRT. So if a neighbour asked me how my Gran was doing, I'd briefly tell them, think no more about it and carry on with my day.
Perhaps you could see these texts as small signs of progress - but remain pleasant, brief and distant....
I do see them as progress. I'm in a fog too so it makes my mind do funny things sometimes.
…was this really the FIRST time she said something like this? Really?
If not, then I tend to think these words were thrown at you more for effect. “NOTICE ME!” More than “I want a divorce.”
You said she is a lasher and this text was sent after an argument. I’ll bet you yelled before she lashed. And she lashed very effectively. She sent you a really mean text and unfriended you on FB. Ouch. This is why I take the words less seriously than if it was said during a counseling session.
However make no mistake. I still take her threats seriously. The #1 problem with lashers is they don’t know when to stop and they don’t know how to “let it go.” So you have to shut it down. And by “shut it down” I mean you have to take control and stop the escalation.
Hope, I have done much more thinking about this since I first answered.
With the exception of one particular instance I have been met with something like this after each negative interaction.
When she moved out back in Aug, she was still wearing her wedding ring until our first big fight about the "incident" a week or two later. The next time I saw her, no ring. Another 2 weeks later the next big argument about the "incident" she pulled completely away and stopped talking about reconciliation and stopped letting me physically touch her. Another week later, another dumb a$$ comment by me got the first hateful divorce threat. By this time tensions are high and the relationship is getting very strained. She changed her relationship status on FB about 3 weeks after the threat. I don't recall a specific incident that sparked it, but at this point she is in full fog and anything I do have become hostile. That was Oct 2 or 3, the last divorce threat was made last weekend after a huge mistake on my part of opening my stupid mouth, again. So yes, they are all tied.
Your description of her (lashers) is uncanny. I just kind of made the word/description up but you have it pegged. The only other thing you didn't mention was that they tend to find it difficult if not impossible to say they're sorry or make amends.
Then here we are today and shes calling about the job she got and we're talking more during the day in the last couple of weeks than we were before the separation.
Now, learn how to take it another step. Celebrate with her. Even if she doesn’t get the job—celebrate how wonderful she is. Send an e-card (funny-not romantic), or flowers, but something uniquely you and her—that says:
“Hey, you are amazing! Every company in America should hire you!” You should consider making it a family affair.
Have a “mommy is amazing” dinner and everyone gets to say why mommy is amazing.
Whether she gets the job or doesn’t get the job…she will remember the support she gets from you during this time. And while you are giving her this support…maybe you can throw in a little romance.
And sending flowers is not pursuit? I will do it first thing tomorrow but it seems counter DB/DR practices.
My mind is in a bad place tonight. I know I'm not supposed to be watching FB but I can't help it sometimes. I see where she just friend-ed suspected OM2. Admittedly I have zero intel other than the first part of Sept's phone logs. I hate my foggy LBS imagination. Yes
Shodan, I'm not emotionally detached AT ALL and I'm paying the price for it now.
Hope, do we know each other? I seriously feel like either you have a very good intuition, you are well trained in the subject matter, or you have some specific inside knowledge.LOL
Well, wife just informed me that she gave her 2 weeks notice at the church where she works part time. presumably because they are putting pressure on her to reconcile the marriage and she's not going to have ANYONE tell her what to do right now.
I replied: OK, whatever you think is best.
She replied back: Right now it seems best. I can't tell the future I wish I could.
Whatever that means.
She fought so hard to get that job and for the first time in many years she was actually happy with her job. Makes me sad and concerned. Nobody left in her circle now that in OUR corner.
On a positive note, the wife texted to say she was going to go opposite service times at church and was just ensuring that I was going to remain in the class I'm at now.
She's drawing back toward God. That's got to be better.
Hi Jefe,
Nope. We don't know each other but your wife isn't very different than many of the women who come to the counseling center.
As a note, I didn't tell you to send her flowers. I used flowers as an example of the difference between romance and pursuit. Bringing a woman flowers is pursuit but making the effort to learn what that woman's favorite flower is...well..that is romance.
Pursuit is about getting what you want. Pursuit is a means to an end. Pursuit can be impatient and desperate. Pursuit can get angry when it doesn't have immediate results. Pursuit usually has an expectation.
Romance is selfless. Romance doesn't have any expectations. Romance is patient and tolerant.
Romance doesn't benefit you it benefits the person you are romancing. When you romance someone your goal is to make the person you are romancing feel loved, valued and cherished whether you gain or not.
Romancing your wife would not be counterproductive to the DB/DR principles because you are becoming the husband that any wife would be crazy to divorce.
[quote=Hope414]
And sending flowers is not pursuit? I will do it first thing tomorrow but it seems counter DB/DR practices.
I believe it's absolutely pursuit, as MWD defines it and cautions against. I think this would be far more appropriate if you two ever get to the "piecing" stage.
Starsky
Even "romancing" isn't appropriate right now if Jefe's wife is contacting other men.
It's a typical DB mistake that many men make: cards, letters, flowers, PURSUIT.
Jefe,
I agree with Starsky on this on. Being positive and a great dad, and showing PMA could attract her back. Sending flowers and trying to be romantic, on the other hand, is pursuing. It will look needy.
This whole process s*cks. You need to detach and GAL.
Again, I want to stress I did not tell Jefe to send flowers to his wife. I tried to explain the difference between romance and pursuit.
Although I respect how men view these definitions as the same thing, I think we may have identified a problem. The definitions of "romance" and "pursuit" are not the same. But I'm not going to get trapped in the weeds on this. I encourage Jefe to use common sense on this issue.
I would like to discuss the “Lasher” issue which, Jefe, I feel is a huge stumbling block when it comes to reconciliation.
Let me start by validating your emotions.
You are 100% right to want your wife to acknowledge how her words and/or actions crossed the line.
When someone lashes they are not thinking about the effect their words have on the other person. They are lashing to obtain a result. Once they achieve their goal they stop lashing. But because they were so goal-oriented during the fight, they are usually completely un-empathetic toward the person they destroyed while trying to reach their goal.
In fact, if you confront them they usually blame the person they lashed at. It was “your” fault because “you” hindered “me” from accomplishing “my” goal. If you would have (fill in the blank) then I wouldn’t have been forced to (fill in the blank).
This is maddening if you are on the receiving end because you want to say, “Your behavior crossed the line. You are psychotic.”
But if you do this you give the person lashing another goal: Prove you wrong. Because if you wouldn’t have (fill in the blank) then I wouldn’t have been forced to (fill in the blank) then you wouldn’t think my behavior crossed the line. And now the circle has begun and you are in a state on agitation all the time.
So let’s stop the circle.
This is why I want to validate your hurt. Because you need someone to validate your feelings of hurt.
You need someone to tell you that you have a right to be hurt by everything your wife did. You also need someone to tell you that she never had a right to threaten you with divorce and the destruction of your marriage.
This was a very mean thing to do. She took the most sacred thing you gave her—which was your heart—and used it as a weapon. Your spouse’s heart should be off limits in a fight.
When people use marriage as a weapon it has a nuclear bomb effect. Not only do you live through the destruction of the bomb but then you live in radio-active land which is virtually uninhabitable. And when you are living in an uninhabitable land the goal is to survive at all costs.
The reason why it is important to work on only changing you is because both you and your wife have been living in nuclear fallout.
Your wife will never see what she is doing to you because she is trying to emotionally survive just like you are. You think she has the emotional capacity to see the impact of her actions. She does not. No one does when they are in survival mode. This is why people come back years later expressing regret saying they felt like they were in a fog.
But if you begin the process of healing and take yourself out of emotional survival mode you give her permission to concentrate on herself.
Wait, I take that back. I did tell Jefe to give his wife flowers.
Sorry.
Please read this in the context of how it was written. It was to be supportive. I said to get a card (funny not romantic).
The point is to be supportive.
I strongly apologize if I gave the impression that I wanted Jefe to pursue his wife. I do not think this is a good idea. But I do believe he needs to show her they are still a team and he is in her corner.
When someone lashes they are not thinking about the effect their words have on the other person. They are lashing to obtain a result. Once they achieve their goal they stop lashing. But because they were so goal-oriented during the fight, they are usually completely un-empathetic toward the person they destroyed while trying to reach their goal.
In fact, if you confront them they usually blame the person they lashed at. It was “your” fault because “you” hindered “me” from accomplishing “my” goal. If you would have (fill in the blank) then I wouldn’t have been forced to (fill in the blank).
This is maddening if you are on the receiving end because you want to say, “Your behavior crossed the line. You are psychotic.”
But if you do this you give the person lashing another goal: Prove you wrong. Because if you wouldn’t have (fill in the blank) then I wouldn’t have been forced to (fill in the blank) then you wouldn’t think my behavior crossed the line. And now the circle has begun and you are in a state on agitation all the time.
So let’s stop the circle.
This is why I want to validate your hurt. Because you need someone to validate your feelings of hurt.
You need someone to tell you that you have a right to be hurt by everything your wife did. You also need someone to tell you that she never had a right to threaten you with divorce and the destruction of your marriage.
This was a very mean thing to do. She took the most sacred thing you gave her—which was your heart—and used it as a weapon. Your spouse’s heart should be off limits in a fight.
Hope, you make me feel as though you've been watching this entire marriage unfold right before you. That last paragraph just turned on the water works. Thank you, I feel like the giant weight on my head just got a little lighter.
Yes, our fights escalate to thermonuclear in a matter of seconds, like crazy fast. It always happens after a certain line is crossed (I never know what that is) and it ramps so violently that once the pin is pulled, there's no putting it back. Yup, you guessed it, ALWAYS my fault. Sometimes the pieces are so hard to put back together. This is not the first time she has held the marriage hostage and it hurts deeply every single time. I have a friend that always says "shoot the hostage" but that is a step I'm just not willing to take at this point.
She sent some texts 3 weeks into the separation that seemd like she had a clue what she had done and was trying to figure out how to piece it back together, but it was short lived when I pressed for more information.
Your wife will never see what she is doing to you because she is trying to emotionally survive just like you are. You think she has the emotional capacity to see the impact of her actions. She does not. No one does when they are in survival mode. This is why people come back years later expressing regret saying they felt like they were in a fog.
Its the weirdest thing too, she simply cannot have something of huge magnitude be her fault its like it will permanently damage her if it is or something. My MIL is the exact same way. Very difficult to deal with sometimes. That being said, here's the thing. I bet a million dollars that if I changed my behavior, hers would be nothing to deal with. I have been an a$$ of a husband. I have been critical when I should have been kind, I have kept score when I should have kept her close, I have loved other things when I should have loved her, I have found fault when I should have simply built up the wonderful traits she has displayed to me over the years. In the last 8 years, she has filled my cup more than everyone else in my life combined. I have not returned the favor. I just pray it's not to late to love her like I should.
But if you begin the process of healing and take yourself out of emotional survival mode you give her permission to concentrate on herself.
I'm trying so hard. I'm still emotionally swinging all over the place but I have gotten better at not letting her see it. I did cry in front of my D5 last night, I just could not contain it. They miss all of us together so much.
Hope, your name is very appropriate, because you have given me real hope.
Ready to roll up my sleeves and fix my marriage.
Jefe,
I agree with Starsky on this on. Being positive and a great dad, and showing PMA could attract her back. Sending flowers and trying to be romantic, on the other hand, is pursuing. It will look needy.
This whole process s*cks. You need to detach and GAL.
I agree with all of you. And Sho, You're right I need to detach. It seems to be working for you well, right now. That gives me even more hope.
Journaling:
On a lighter note, the wife has practically been blowing my phone up today. Mainly just financial/offspring related conversation but she has called to make sure that I know about things happening in her life right away, so that's new. I resisted sending the flowers this morning as I knew that was a poor choice but I did send a reply text, during one of our many conversations today, telling her to have a great day.
She was in a great mood when she dropped off the kids this evening and wants to go to a fall festival with us tomorrow as a family. That's new too. She made a point as she was leaving (stepped back in the room to make sure she had my attention) to make serious eye contact and smile, and say "Have a good evening". Glad I was keeping a PMA around her.
Then after she left, she has called 2-3 times just asking stuff that could wait. Mind you, this is the woman that doesn't talk on the phone.
Not getting my hopes up about anything, but glad she isn't acting like she hates me and the daggers aren't flying.
Hope,
I have been ruminating about what you said a bit:
"In fact, if you confront them they usually blame the person they lashed at. It was “your” fault because “you” hindered “me” from accomplishing “my” goal. If you would have (fill in the blank) then I wouldn't have been forced to (fill in the blank)."
The times since the separation I have been met with total retaliation and threats of divorce, FB changes, etc are the times I have asked her to see her part in it. She could be in a great mood, util I do that. Then, bam. We're over and I hate you. The first two weeks she at least admitted it happened but since then she says "You didn't see anything", "I didn't do that", "There were no pictures". I say "If I didn't find it and you didn't get caught, then why did you leave?" Her response: "Because we don't get along." and that is what she has told most of "our" friends. I don't think she has been honest with anyone. And basically what I'm hearing you say is I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for her to own it.
Thoughts to ponder.
No Jefe, she is not going to own her words. In fact, she told you she is not going to own her words so stop expecting her to own it.
The good news is if/when you completely reconcile...she will own it. In fact, she will probably have shame over her behavior. But let her come to this on her own.
Forming a new conscience for her isn't your job.
Your immediate focus should be paying attention to when and how she opens the door for more intimacy.
Calling you is great. In fact it is wonderful. Talking is how we connect and bond with people. It allows immediate interaction and intimacy. I absolutely think it is a great sign she choose calling over texting.
She has given you permission to call her.
I assume you are going to the Fall Festival as a family tomorrow. Are you picking her up or is she coming to you? If you are picking her up then call and ask if she needs anything. The important thing to remember is your next contact should be a phone call not a text.
If you text then you just slapped down her gesture for more intimacy.
Tomorrow pay close attention to everything she does and mirror it back. If she kind of nudges you while walking, nudge her back and then gingerly reach for her hand. Pay attention to her body language. Detaching is good but in the proper context. Women hurt easily when they feel rejected. And your wife lashes.
If your wife gives you permission for intimacy pay attention to how much intimacy. It may only be playfulness. It could be holding her hand. It might be a hug. She will set limits. But do not mistake responding to her nonverbal ques as pursuing. It is courting. And unless you actively court your wife you will not have a wife.
But if she suddenly appears agitated don't get angry--pay attention to what may have agitated her. Is there a playful couple laughing and joking next to you? Then point to them and whisper, "That will be us again. I promise" and then turn to your daughters and say, "Did I ever tell you about the first Halloween party your mommy and I went to?" (or something like this)
This will reassure her that you have a future, shared a past, have a family, but more important it will change her focus to something more pleasant.
You can call it whatever you want, but Jefe "courting" or "romancing" his wife during this stage is still PURSUIT, and it's only going to smother her and push her away.
This is NOT what MWD advises in her books!
Starsky
I have to say I agree with Starsky. Jefe, the WAS blows hot and cold during this time because they are confused and often cake-eating. They are nice out of guilt, or nice to get something from you (in my case, a weedwacker, free babysitting while he visited OW, etc.). I don't want to burst your bubble, and by all means it's GREAT that she is communicating more with you and wanting to do things as a family, because this is good for the kids. But no expectations, and NO courting. Let her lead the way.
Ahoy, thank you. I have zero expectations. I am rooted in the 37 rules right now, I don't do them well always, but I'm trying. I have great respect for Hope414 because she understands the situation almost perfectly. I trust Starsky, I trust you. I think I have a clear picture of how I will handle today, so don't fear. I will journal as soon as I return.
I think there is a strong misunderstanding about DB principles.
Detach, GAL, pursuit, ect, are to be used with wisdom. They are guidelines to be used. Not unbendable rules.
Each situation is different because people are different.
Detachment works because you see your situation from neutral eyes in order to learn what you are doing wrong. GAL works because your spouse cannot be your primary focus in life nor your only source of happiness. Pursuit doesn't work because it is desperate and focused primarily on your needs and not the bigger picture.
I have been a silent observer of this forum for years. I have watched people misuse these principles over and over again. I didn't start posting until I started following one individual who used these principals as weapons against his wife.
And he abused his wife with righteousness. Only a couple of people pointed out he was doing it wrong. But he stubbornly pointed out the 37 rules for his obnoxious behavior toward his wife.
The 37 rules are not to be used as weapons or excuses. And a lot of people on this forum use them as weapons and excuses. Which is why many of you are getting divorced despite your "best" attempts to reconcile.
Stop it.
If your spouse is giving you the green light to communicate then communicate. If your spouse offers affection then give affection back.
How do you think they became your spouse?
You are not "picking up" your relationship from where you left off. You don't have a relationship anymore. It got blown up.
You are beginning a new relationship. And no one begins a new relationship if there is not a courting phase or a romance phase.
I agree too. Perhaps it would be best just focusing on the kids having a nice day. Have no expectations of your W and aim for friendly, but not that engaged with her. I would not pursue at all and let her lead the way, and if any romancing comes from her, respond cautiously, as though you would very much have to think more about things before becoming romantic with her again.
Still, pleased for you that there seem to be signs of things turning - I would give my right arm for that right now. Hope you have a lovely day!
I agree too. Perhaps it would be best just focusing on the kids having a nice day. Have no expectations of your W and aim for friendly, but not that engaged with her. I would not pursue at all and let her lead the way, and if any romancing comes from her, respond cautiously, as though you would very much have to think more about things before becoming romantic with her again.
Still, pleased for you that there seem to be signs of things turning - I would give my right arm for that right now. Hope you have a lovely day!
Thank you so much, Toots. It is an awfully quick turn around and has me a bit nervous as to motive. But I'm not supposed to be concerned with motive, now am I.
I know a ton of people on here would kill to have an opportunity like this so I am going to treat it as a privilege that I get to go today. No expectations, I believe nothing she says and only 50% of what she does, but if she lets her wall down just a bit, I am going to enjoy the moment.
I trust each and every one of you, including Hope and Starsky simultaneously. I understand what Hope is trying to say in the context of the 37, and I trust Starsky's unquestionable wisdom.
I will make the best of the situation I can and will report back directly after. PMA PMA PMA.
Side note, W just stopped by for a second to drop off some stuff I needed for the girls before we meet up at the festival later and here I am standing in the kitchen in only boxers (kids are at my moms house) She was having a hard time staying focused and maintaining eye contact. Hey, my eyes are up here! LOL, score one for Jefe and the manic-depressive stress diet. I enjoyed every bit of the PMA / Detached conversation.
Well, w showed up to the festival 15 minutes late and only stayed 45 minutes before leaving. She was preoccupied most of the time and was texting a bunch. No physical touch. Some smiles and what not. Nothing exciting but nothing expected. But then I just got this text as I'm typing this.
"I'm going to start dating so you know, you can to."
Yup, crushed I am.
Jefe, I know your pain. Remember those dates with other guys are only band aids. They are broken reeds too, just like your W is. Stay strong.
Jefe,
Again, very random. There is more to this story. What are you leaving out?
I think there is a strong misunderstanding about DB principles.
Detach, GAL, pursuit, ect, are to be used with wisdom. They are guidelines to be used. Not unbendable rules.
Each situation is different because people are different.
Detachment works because you see your situation from neutral eyes in order to learn what you are doing wrong. GAL works because your spouse cannot be your primary focus in life nor your only source of happiness. Pursuit doesn't work because it is desperate and focused primarily on your needs and not the bigger picture.
I have been a silent observer of this forum for years. I have watched people misuse these principles over and over again. I didn't start posting until I started following one individual who used these principals as weapons against his wife.
And he abused his wife with righteousness. Only a couple of people pointed out he was doing it wrong. But he stubbornly pointed out the 37 rules for his obnoxious behavior toward his wife.
The 37 rules are not to be used as weapons or excuses. And a lot of people on this forum use them as weapons and excuses. Which is why many of you are getting divorced despite your "best" attempts to reconcile.
Stop it.
If your spouse is giving you the green light to communicate then communicate. If your spouse offers affection then give affection back.
How do you think they became your spouse?
You are not "picking up" your relationship from where you left off. You don't have a relationship anymore. It got blown up.
You are beginning a new relationship. And no one begins a new relationship if there is not a courting phase or a romance phase.
Who even mentioned the 37 Rules? I disagreed with your recommendation that he "romance" or "court" his wife, while she is actively wayward. I believe this falls into the "no pursuit" concept of DB and DR.
Who's using anything as a "weapon" against Jefe's wife???
I'm sorry for the distraction, Jefe. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one I guess.
Starsky
Starsky,
I strongly apologize if I gave the perception that I believe Jefe used the 37 Rules as a weapon against his wife. I thought I was very specific when I said I have been a silent observer of this forum for years and watched many people misuse these principles. Jefe has not been on this forum for many years.
I said the 37 rules are not to be used as weapons or excuses and a lot of people on this forum use them as weapons and excuses which is why many are getting divorced despite thier "best" attempts to reconcile.
Jefe is not getting a divorce. He is currently in a state of limbo.
I made it clear that I did not start posting until I saw one specific man on this forum use the 37 Rules to abuse his wife.
Starsky, I admire how you defend Jefe. I admire that you believe I attacked him and you came to his rescue. I also respect the advice you give him. It is obvious you care.
I don't think you and I are on opposite sides.
Jefe, my H also invited me to a festival, all friendly-like, then had a rendezvous with his "girlfriend" and confessed to me right after. Honestly, why do they bother? I makes me so angry when the WAS yanks our chain for no reason. Or worse, for their own selfish reasons. I'm not falling for that anymore. I'm only seeing him to discuss the paperwork for the dissolution of our marriage. There's no other reason to spend time together and act like a phoney happy family. I'm being totally friendly and compassionate toward him when we do meet, but I have no desire to pal around town with him. It's totally awkward and lame. I have plenty of other friends whose company I enjoy more. I'll be you do too. Go spend time with them and forget about her. If she comes running back later, so be it. But give yourself a bit of time and space. You are wounded and need some healing time to yourself. Don't waste any more energy on her for the time being.
Vets, please feel free to contradict me. I've DBed myself off the cliff of caring, and it's probably tainted my advice.
Jefe, I'm so sorry.....Hopefully you managed to have a good time with the kids - that's rotten to receive a text like that though - sounds like it's back to the 37 rules for you....
Concentrate on yourself for a bit - keep GAL, and try not to worry about your W for now. She will do what she will do, and ultimately things will be resolved somehow.
Best wishes to you though
Jefe,
Again, very random. There is more to this story. What are you leaving out?
Hope, I'm not in a very good place at the moment. It was totally random.
Jefe, chin up! You are going to be OK. I promise you. This part stinks, but it will pass. Either way, you will be OK.
The main thing now is DO NOT FIXATE on your W. Clean something, fix something, go help someone or volunteer, or go hang out with friends. Get on with life. You have no control of your W's decisions or actions, so focus on the things you can do instead. Like taking care of yourself & kids.
Jefe, this is great advice. ^^^
I know you are hurting. Remember, I HAVE BEEN THERE. Many of us have. It does get better, I promise. Unfortunately, this is the "free will" part that --although we know God hears us and is caring for us -- we cannot control what our wayward spouses decide to do.
LET HER BE for now. This isn't necessarily over (even 20% of divorced couples remarry, with most reporting marriages better than before), and this doesn't even necessarily mean D. It does mean she is not receptive to you NOW.
Starsky
Starsky, Toots, Wet, Ahoy, thank you for responding, and being supportive. I'm OK. Hope, I'll respond to you separately.
I'm exhausted. So tired of drama.
The wife picked up the kids last night at 5:30 for her one night a week she's decided she now wants them. I called my inner circle people and pulled them all close and one of my oldest friends came over last night, till well after midnight, helping me put the motor back in my truck so I had plenty to keep my mind occupied.
She texted a few times during the evening. I ignored all of them. Right or wrong, 37 or not 37, don't really care.
Hope, I can almost always point to a very specific "thing" that started her destruction engine. I'm absolutely so f'ing tired of having to watch every little thing I say/do so I don't upset her and send her into another destructive cycle. I posted the exchange a few hours before we met up at the festival, nothing there. Only one thing comes to mind in the next short 45 minute interaction and it's so minimal.
She was coming back from a concession stand and just as she got next to me, my phone started to ring. I pulled it out of my pocket to look and she starts in with a unusual tone asking "Who is that, who's calling you?" I said: "It's some strange 888 number." and showed her the screen and playfully asked, "Look familiar to you?" she said it didn't, I said "Me either. I'm just going to ignore it, then." and put it back in my pocket.
About 15 minutes later, she's texting, again, and I, again playfully, said: "Who is it, huh, huh?" and just kind of laughed. She said nothing. and I didn't expect her to. I regretted saying it just because I know what a hair trigger she has these days.
If this^^^ is what set her off, good grief. This whole thing is a damn mess and she's acting like a 3 year old.
The texting after she dropped the dating bomb got stupid for a second before I came to my senses and went dark. I'm still at a "family" festival for Pete's sake.
She didn't have to come. We were fine without her.
Yeah it doesn't seem fair. The WAW seems to thing she has full access to information of all your activity while at the same time leading a secret life and not letting you see any of her activities. My W won't show me her phone, but feels justified to snoop through all my computer files (looking for reasons to justify her bad behaviour). When I changed my computer password she literally freaked out.
I think it has to do with assuaging their guilty feelings by finding things about the LBS that justify them being driven into another man's arm. As long as they can keep finding reasons to solidify their position they will keep up the rationalization. They'll even make stuff up, and rewrite history when they run out of confirmable evidence.
That's why it's essential to keep as squeaky clean as possible - just so you don't feed into that pattern. Still won't help with the made-up stuff, but at least you won't be contributing to the fuel.
Hence the need to detach, keep a PMA and always treat her with dignity and respect as much as you don't think she deserves it. She's still a person and one that's going through a very emotionally unstable time in her life. Remember you vowed for better or for worse, and this is truly the worse. And since you love her you should have enough compassion to see through her acidic behaviour to the girl you fell in love with (although it must seem at times like that girl has been abducted by aliens).
She's still a person and one that's going through a very emotionally unstable time in her life. Remember you vowed for better or for worse, and this is truly the worse. And since you love her you should have enough compassion to see through her acidic behaviour to the girl you fell in love with (although it must seem at times like that girl has been abducted by aliens).
I have a tough time seeing that she is going through anything. I know she must be, just hard for me to see through the muck right now.
I know you're right Peter. Just reeling for a moment. I'll get back centered in a minute.
Jefe, I'm sorry to see you go through this. I too have gotten the whole "I wanna see other people" line. It [censored]! I have a hard time detaching as well. All you can do now is do for yourself and the kids, if W wants to be a part of it, she has to decide that on her own.
It's funny, I give you this advice, but I have a hard time follwing it in my sitch.
Hi Jefe,
How are you feeling today? I’m pretty sure you cycled through a lot of emotions last night.
Let me start by saying your wife’s actions yesterday were very cruel. No matter her emotional state yesterday there was no excuse for the way she acted. I strongly believe there is a difference between “detaching” and “allowing.”
The reason we detach is because we cannot control our spouse’s actions and therefore we cannot have emotional attachments to their actions. However, this does not give our spouses permission to engage in obnoxious and disrespectful behavior to us or our children. There is still a standard of behavior we expect from people when they interact with us.
She did not have a right to leave the festival early. You were there as a family and she made a commitment to be there as a member of the family. It was rude, inconsiderate and showed a lack of respect for the entire family. Not just you.
She did not have a right to send you a text saying she was going to date. Under any circumstances this would be outrageous behavior but doing it after a family gathering is obnoxious. If she wanted to discuss “dating” then decorum demands this discussion be conducted verbally.
I believe you need to set boundaries with your wife on her behavior. When setting boundaries for the WAS we need to be clear and kind. The point of boundaries is to inform not punish. For example, if she feels there needs to be a discussion on an issue that redefines your marriage contract (parenting, dating, etc.) then these issues should not be discussed by email or text. A time will be set for the issue to be discussed either on the phone or in person.
Now on to the actual incident yesterday:
The phone may have triggered her but it may not have been the reason she triggered. It may have been a combination of things. Coming to the house and having a familiar moment, then leaving. Then being together as a family at a family-friendly event and watching other people enjoy intimacy that she didn’t have. She may have been overwhelmed with feelings of sadness, guilt and remorse. The phone incident may have been the excuse she was looking for to become agitated and leave.
I don’t know if this is what happened. But I would be interested in seeing the text message conversation that took place after her first text. If my hypnosis is correct her texting would have carried “hopeless” language such as “I don’t see the point.”
Do not mistake hopeless language for reconciliation language. Hopeless language indicates depression and a lot of WAS divorce under the mistaken belief that a divorce will stop their depression. If she used hopeless language she needs to be comforted. She needs to know this situation is not forever. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
However, the opposite may have occurred. The day’s events may have spurred an epiphany. Your direct and honest communication with the phone could have made her realize that her deceitful behavior is wrong. She may have decided she doesn’t want to be this person anymore. She may have decided that she wants to be direct and honest with you about her intentions to date and she wants you to have freedom to find someone else, also.
Again, I don’t know if this is what happened but her subsequent text messages carry the missing information. Did she use direct language? “I think it is time we accepted our mistakes and moved forward with our lives.”
Just as hopeless language shouldn’t be confused with reconciliation language, direct language shouldn’t be confused with divorce language. Direct language only means she is ready to be open and honest about her lifestyle. This is not a bad thing. It is a hurtful thing but not a bad thing. If she used direct language then you need to accept her at her word. Which is: She is dating.
Can you share the subsequent text messages?
Hope, It got a little nasty after that as I was having a hard time containing my frustration over the fact of the timing of the entire deal and the subject matter. I screwed it all up.
There were so many texts but I'll share most of the pertinent ones.
After she said "You can too"
M: No interest, thank you.
W: OK your choice
M: You already have been anyway
W: OK whatever you say.
M: I'm not real sure what you want me to say, really.
W: Just Informing you that's all
M:So kind of you to do this right now while I have our children at a family event.
W: Sorry
M: Well, I think we need to change our finincial and vehicular arrangements ASAP. I'm not going to support your destruction of the family.
W: So, what are you going to take from me then everything?
M: You're leaving everything, I'm taking nothing.
W: If you take the car that will be shi**y and I will be very pi**ed off. But whats new. You've taken everything from me anyway. I have nothing left.
M: You walked away,
W: I gave you 7 years the least you can do is give me the car unless you're too selfish and have to have it all to yourself.
M: I'm sorry I missed the part of the vows about 7 years was all we were obligated to. I'm not being selfish, I didn't leave you.
W: You've done your part too to destroy the marriage don't even try that sh*t with me.
M: I have done plenty, and I'm the one here standing for what's right willing to do whatever it takes to restore the marriage, so don't play that sh*t with me either.
W: I don't want the marriage
M: Obviously, but you ARE still married.
W: I've done my best and that's all I can do
W: Sorry
W: Then get the divorce papers and I'll sign them today.
W: I can't afford them
The next 20 minutes was a spewing of anger and I turned my phone on silent for a couple of hours.
Around 11 last night she sends:
W: Did you get the engine in yet?
W: I truly am sorry it didn't work out for you and I to stay together. I wish no Ill will against you. You are a great dad to our children and for that I'm grateful. I want to be your friend. Please don't make us enemies.
I didn't respond to either.
This morning at church she has hovered all around me probing for information on what I'm doing the rest of the day and such, and has even found a reason she needs to come to the house today, ugh. I've kept it short. At one point she said: "you sure are grouchy" and I said, "yup".
Tons of 2x4s coming my way, I'm sure. I blew the entire conversation after the dating bomb drop and I know it. The 37 flew right out the door. I forwarded the "dating" text to my sponsor right after she sent it to me and he called in the middle of this deal and told me to STFU and stop engaging in any more conversation. Go dark now, which I did.
Now she's texting wanting to know what she can do for us or get for us while she's out today. I hate this part of my life right now.
It's funny, I give you this advice, but I have a hard time follwing it in my sitch.
Me too. But it's a huge part of why helping others and posting on other threads is so beneficial to all of us. It gives us some insight and diverts our attention for a brief moment.
Jefe, I feel for you. I'm following your threads, but since I have no advice, I stay silent for the most part. It hurts my heart to see how you're being treated. I haven't seen or talked to my wife in months. I guess I have it easier in some ways. Part of me wishes I was still in contact with my wife, but it was extremely emotionally draining on me. Ive got mediation coming up in December or so. Don't guess I'll hear from her at all until then. All seems to be rainbows and unicorns in affair land.
WMWB, Thanks for the prayers and support. It's in God's hands now.
I can't do anything for my wife or my family, I'm powerless.
She just left here to go shopping for us. While she was here she's been playful, and very close and bumping into me and putting her mark on the house, etc. This bi-polar BS is what insanity is made of. Doing my best to be detached.
Jefe,
It's time for a refresher on validating. Here's the link:
Validation: Cheat Sheet Chin up, buddy!
You are absolutely correct, Wonka. Thank you. I was just thinking about this thread this morning.
She said she wants to still be friends.
Well that's not a bad place to start. Face it. Your marriage is over - the one you had. Period. You could even tell her that, but then you could also tell her that you would like to build a new marriage with her, unless you find that too pursuing. Nonetheless, you need to build a new marriage with her, and that starts as being friends, being kind and not assuming that you can act like her husband. You're back to courting. And that's a delicate dance, especially if there are other suitors in play.
My W wants to be friends. We spend time together as friends. Anytime we get into R talk it degrades to rewriting history and me getting all the blame. I really need to stay away from that crepe.
I would try very hard not to make any snarky comments about her behaviour. If you don't like what she's saying give her the time out signal and take a walk. When you come back move on to a different topic.
Yes it does seem like bipolar insanity. Reinforce the positives. Ignore the negatives.
Hi Jefe,
Well, I can understand your frustration. This was a very unsettling exchange. Since we don’t know why she said these things, I don’t think we should be labeling your wife.
I’m also not going to fault the way you responded. Based on the situation and the way you received the information I think you handled it pretty well. In fact, I think you did a good job of detaching (as much as possible), pointing out consequences, and bringing her back to the marriage discussion.
One text interests me: “Then get the divorce papers and I’ll sign them today” followed by “I can’t afford them.”
This was a very interesting text.
When someone wants a divorce they file for a divorce and the LBS begs them not to do this. But not only does your wife keep threatening to file a divorce (with no follow through)--Now she is demanding that you to carry out her threat.
Is your first thought to the paragraph above, “She did that because she can’t afford to file.” I know its expense to file in Dallas because I googled the cost of filing for a divorce (with children) in Dallas and the cost is $336.00.
Although this sounds like a great deal of money it really isn’t when someone is determined. But it is an incredible amount of money for something you do not want. I thought this amount was extremely punitive for lower economic citizens so I did a little more research. There are services available to help indigent people (primarily women) file for a divorce if they cannot afford the $336.00 fee.
I find it interesting that your wife did not take the 2 hours necessary to research this information. I am a stranger with no vested interest in your marriage yet I was able to obtain information about where to could go for financial assistance for a divorce.
But, what I want to know is…was your first thought “She did that because she can’t afford to file?”
Because your first thought should have been, “Hey…I didn’t even realize that she was asking me to carry out her threats!”
The reason your first thought to this is important is because it will provide insight into the dynamics of your relationship.
I’m also intrigue by the way both of you behaved today at church and after. It provided more insight into your relationship.
Both of you completely avoid the mention of the text argument from last night. She doesn’t acknowledge her wounding words and even displays an incredible lack of empathy for your feelings (You sure are grouchy). To which you state “Yup.” To which she responds with Acts of Service.
This isn’t the first time she has done this. Are you aware that after she engages in inappropriate behavior she engages in in Acts of Service?
But, what I want to know is…was your first thought “She did that because she can’t afford to file?”
Because your first thought should have been, “Hey…I didn’t even realize that she was asking me to carry out her threats!”
The reason your first thought to this is important is because it will provide insight into the dynamics of your relationship.
My initial response to the "divorce" statement was that it was just another idle threat meant to wound me for the moment.
I’m also intrigue by the way both of you behaved today at church and after. It provided more insight into your relationship.
Both of you completely avoid the mention of the text argument from last night. She doesn’t acknowledge her wounding words and even displays an incredible lack of empathy for your feelings (You sure are grouchy). To which you state “Yup.” To which she responds with Acts of Service.
This isn’t the first time she has done this. Are you aware that after she engages in inappropriate behavior she engages in in Acts of Service?
I avoided mentioning it on the advice of my sponsor and grand-sponsor whom I both go to church with.
I need more clarification on the acts of service behavior you are seeing. It is definitely her primary love language. Words of affirmation and quality time vie for second place.
Wait, I think I see it today. She went shopping for us. and spent alot of time trying to be engaged with the fam today in a weird distant sort of way. Even left her phone in the car so no distractions.
I gotta tell ya, she was scanning the crowd looking for me between services and I was trying to not be seen and she found me anyway. Then I was talking to my sponsors and she maintained a less than 25 yard distance the entire time. I tried to slip away and grab a drink from the machine and when I headed back, there she was coming the other way down the hall wanting to engage me in conversation but I kept it short saying I was late for service.
After service is when she really cornered me and wanted to talk about what I was going to do today, made the grouchy comment etc. While we were talking, Brooke, a friend (an extremely attractive friend) from one of the outreach groups walked up and gave me a hug then turned and introduced herself to my wife, then walked away. The wife said, who was that?
Priceless.
She went to the grocery store for us, got some much needed pet supplies, took care of the dogs and animals when she got here. Cleaned up a little, to which I said she didn't have to. Like I said, leaving her mark on the house. Tossed in a load of household laundry, mind bending.
Later she came back to the house to drop off her laundry and came back yet again to pick it up.
And there's our dynamic. Crazy.
Wait, more text messages, just checking up on us. Seeing how everything is going. I just don't get it.
Two questions:
(1) What is holding you both back from pastoral marriage counseling?
(2) Are you DB'ing on your own with a counselor?
(1) Well, the obvious, she is refusing any counseling. I'm ready and more than willing.
(2) DBing on my own. Can't really afford to do the sessions at the moment. On top of the family stress going on, I'm supporting 2 households and we've had a ton of vehicular drama lately that's cost us a small fortune.
Hope, I am overwhelmed with gratitude for your insight and dedication to my particular situation. You don't seem overly active on other threads and I am unsure why you chose to focus on mine, but I greatly appreciate it. Your observations are uncanny.
Just more journaling.
Wait, more text messages, just checking up on us. Seeing how everything is going. I just don't get it.
Text transcript:
8:06 PM
W: Are the girls in bed? M: Not yet, why?
W: Just wondering how its going. I want them to get enough sleep.M: I understand, I take pretty good care of them
W: I know8:45 PM
She calls.
W: What are yall doing?M: Coming home from the store.
W: Oh. Well, I was just checking in to see how they were doing. M: Is that all you needed?
W: Yeah.M: Sure?
W: Yes.M: OK
W: OK, good night.M: Night
Again this morning,
8:22 AM - phone call
W: Good morning!Long pause, then just asking how everything went this morning and talked about some school stuff, etc.
I'm so confused.
Do not mistake hopeless language for reconciliation language. Hopeless language indicates depression and a lot of WAS divorce under the mistaken belief that a divorce will stop their depression. If she used hopeless language she needs to be comforted. She needs to know this situation is not forever. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
Hope,
I want to touch on this for a minute and possibly shed some more light on this particular point.
I think my wife clearly knows she screwed up in regards to the interaction with OM1 I found on her phone. I think in her mind there is no way she can face this. She feels like I will never forgive her for it (I already have), she feels like I will never let her forget it (will need God's help here) and she thinks that the interaction between D7 and OM1 will be changed forever (She's correct it has and will regardless of the marital status) and IMO mistakenly believes that divorce solves these issues. and removes my "control" of the situation and gives her total control.
Just a thought and the relevance is negotiable. I can say this, the incident and how we deal/dealt with it has everything to do with our separation and future reconciliation.