Hello,
I have been following these threads and would love some advice.
Here is my sitch. My W told me on 6/7/14 that she wanted a divorce. She has been unhappy for a long time, I had broken her heart and ultimately she has nothing left for me. This was a total shock to me. I recognized that we had got caught up in the life of a typical married couple: work and kids. We have a seven and ten year old so our life had started becoming very child focused.
However, I never knew the pain that she was feeling. I was heart broken and did everything wrong (sent gifts, pleaded, etc.). But I also read DB and DR. I did a really good job listening and uncovered a lot of her pain and the sources of her pain. I had not been present, I was too controlling, and I was not showing her the appropriate amount of attention and affection. Ultimately, she said that she knew that I did not love her and that I did not find her attractive. She said we had gotten married to early (we were married at 25 and have been married for 15 years, together for 18). This was far from the truth but clearly her perception was different from my reality.
Things started out tense but she slowly lowered her wall as we talked more and I changed. I stayed away from trying to change her and spent my time changing myself. In fact, I thanked my wife for telling me what she did because I had an epiphany and was a changed man. I loved the man that I was becoming. I was a better person, father, friend and spouse. We did some family events and had a great time. We hung out more, drank some wine and talked. She even commented that she felt like she was married to a stranger due to all of the changes that I had made. However, she also would say "this is too little too late" and that "if she could snap her fingers and change her feelings towards me, she would but she could not". But she said her feelings were her feelings and she did not see a future together.
As I did research, I also realized that my wife was having a MLC. Her father had died suddenly a month before her D announcement. She was traveling more for work and loving it. She commented that people were commenting about her appearance and she really liked the attention.
She then accepted a job in NYC (we live in Boston) and asked me to move with her and the kids (S 7, D 10). I told her that I did not want to move to NYC if we were going to get divorced. But then if living in NYC was going to make her happy, then we should move.
I continued working on myself and showing her I was a changed man. I agreed with her that I had not been present as much as I should and I had not been giving her the attention that I should have. As much as I loved my wife, I had not showed her that through my actions.
We had a few really great "dates" where she commented how fun I had been. She allowed me to touch her a bit more (no kissing or anything but putting my hand on her left during a movie) and even allowed me to give her a very sensual massage one night (no sex). So I figured that things were improving. DB works I thought.
But I had been noticing that she was texting a lot on her phone and usually quickly shut off her phone when I entered the room. She also said a lot of the things that DB says a W says when she is having an affair. So I broke down and looked at my W's phone (I figured out the code). And there I found a very explicit text between her and someone with the initials SG. She was traveling the next week to NYC and she had invited him to spend the night every night. She texted to him that he made her feel like she was 21 all over again. The OM even asked my W it was OK if he went out that night (OM is NYC, W was in Boston with me). She wrote back "of course". They were corresponding like a couple. This was not a one time fling.
I confronted her and she denied it. She said the text was from a guy from work (whose initials were not SG but his last name began with Sag). He had been flirting with her and she allowed it to happen. She apologized for it and said it was wrong. But then she said that maybe we should separate since she clearly enjoyed this type of attention. She left for NYC a few hours later (on a Sunday, early in the afternoon).
The next day I checked out my linkedin profile and found that her ex boyfriend from college had checked out my profile. His initials are SG. It all made sense. Referring to feeling like she is 21 again. He lives in NYC. He was recently divorced. Contrary to DB advice, I texted her and told her I knew about the OM and texted her his name. My W replied 9 hours later with "huh?" and then said she could not talk because she was at a client dinner.
So what should I do? I want to work on my M but cannot do this while my W is in an A. I know I need to GAL and work on myself. But my W is denying the affair. Should I do a LRT? Should I tell her to drop the A or we cannot work on the M? Should I try to show her I am changed since this approach seemed to have been working? Or was my W just being nice so she could have her cake and eat it too? My W texted my D that she wants to do a family dinner on Saturday when she gets back. Should I say no?
D announcement 6/7/2014
Me 40, W 40
D - 10, S - 7
M: 15, T: 18
We still live together and share the same bed
More info...my W just texted that she will call me later to talk. I am not sure whether I should take the call or let it go to VM.
Do NOT tell her what you know, and what you don't know. Say only "I know all about you and ______, and it needs to stop, immediately. It's incredibly disrespectful to me, to our marriage and to our family." By not telling her what you know specifically, she will have to assume you know EVERYTHING.
Tell her nothing more than "I do not want a divorce, but make no mistake -- I am not willing to live in an open marriage. End your affair and come back and work on the marriage with me, and you will find that I am ready and willing to work on all issues, including my own, as I've already been doing as you know."
Then end the convo, and remain distant and mysterious. The phrases "I'm not sure how I feel about that" or "Sounds like we both have some important decisions to make" are your friends.
More later, gotta go to an appt . . . how you handle this is a CRITICAL step, shodan. Make sure you post here first without doing anything drastic or getting into any deep convos with her!!!
Starsky
P.S.
She WILL lie to you. All cheaters lie -- PERIOD. If she does, cut her off and say "Please stop it -- we both know you're lying to me right now, and it's incredibly disrespectful. When you're ready to at least be honest with me, we can talk further. I gotta go" (and end the convo).
Starsky
Thanks for this direct feedback. I had texted her to say that we should talk about her plans re: NYC because what i know changes everything. Her response was "huh" and that she would call me. But, she has not called me anyway.
I am not going to call or text her back. But what I don't know is how to handle this weekend when she gets back. As mentioned in my original post, she texted my D(on a group text with me that my Dhad started with us) that we will go to dinner on Sat night. While I want to maintain a happy home for my kids, that just seems to be giving her what she wants. Her OM in NYC and her family in Boston. Until this weekend when I discovered the A, I had been doing fun things on the weekend to show her that I had changed. As stated, she commented that she was having fun and seemed to be lowering her wall. But, given that she is having the A, clearly her actions or responses either were for show or were just showing her confusion.
My W just called. I picked up and she was very casual, apologizing for calling back so much later than she had told me. I then went straight into what you wrote, telling her that I knew about the A and that it was disrespectful to me, our family and our marriage. She quickly denied it and said "I don't know what you are talking about". I repeated your piece about lying and that I wanted to work on our M but the A had to end. I ended it by saying "When you're ready to at least be honest with me, we can talk further. I gotta go." and then I hung up.
Now I will just move on...
Of course, I also feel like I just pushed my W closer to the OM. I know that is probably not the case, but the thought does linger.
Of course, I also feel like I just pushed my W closer to the OM. I know that is probably not the case, but the thought does linger.
That's ok -- we're playing the long game here. DBing is a marathon, not a sprint.
Ya done GOOD!!!
More in about an hour. DON'T REENGAGE HER right now; LEAVE HER BE.
Starsky
DON'T REENGAGE HER right now; LEAVE HER BE
YES!! Trust me- don't back down from the stance you just issued.
Thanks Starsky, this is SO hard. I felt like I had been making some inroads by DBing, showing her through my actions that I had changed. It seemed to have been working and had been my plan until Sunday when I discovered the A. Until then, my plan had been to stay the course, make small talk from time to time, etc. In fact, I BBQ a great dinner for her on Friday (and for the kids) and sent her a text with a pic of the steak and two glasses of wine. She responded "Yay, on my way home." So to learn that she has been having an affair was a total punch in the gut. I know this is the right plan. It just is creating a hole in my heart and stomach right now.
Thanks again for your help.
Way to do it, shodan.
My M is one that received another chance thanks, in large part, to Starsky's guidance and knowledge. And he's *especially* on point from a male's POV. You'll get stellar advice from him. Most importantly; if a M is going to be saved, I firmly believe it WILL with his method, even it feels completely counter-intuitive.
Hang in there, and stay strong!
I felt like I had been making some inroads by DBing, showing her through my actions that I had changed. It seemed to have been working and had been my plan until Sunday when I discovered the A. Until then, my plan had been to stay the course, make small talk from time to time, etc. So to learn that she has been having an affair was a total punch in the gut.
Shodan, I had been on that same path for the first few mos of this year- felt good about myself, our interactions, thought OM was out of the picture and felt we were making progress. Then I found out that the A was ongoing and I flipped out. Made threats that I couldn't/didn't keep and took several steps backwards.
Point of my story- you're on the right track, stay strong!
Thank you Train and Tarheel. Sticking to my word.
Here is another conundrum. How do I deal with this weekend when she is back? Do we do fun family things or should I refuse to do them? But I want to be with my kids as well. Do we just not talk to each other and not do anything together with the kids, who still don't know anything.
Thanks Starsky, this is SO hard. I felt like I had been making some inroads by DBing, showing her through my actions that I had changed. It seemed to have been working and had been my plan until Sunday when I discovered the A. Until then, my plan had been to stay the course, make small talk from time to time, etc. In fact, I BBQ a great dinner for her on Friday (and for the kids) and sent her a text with a pic of the steak and two glasses of wine. She responded "Yay, on my way home." So to learn that she has been having an affair was a total punch in the gut. I know this is the right plan. It just is creating a hole in my heart and stomach right now.
Thanks again for your help.
I know, and I'm sorry for the short posts before. I had to take my wife for some pre-op tests, but I wanted to check in on you so I was on my iPhone. I myself went thru this 7 years ago (I'll post a link to my sitch later), so I know what a kick in the gut it can be. I personally felt like a truck ran over my chest and then just PARKED THERE.
Don't worry about all the DBing you did -- IT WAS NEEDED! You said yourself that there are things you did to contribute to the marital dysfunction. So it was important that your wife see your positive changes before you took your strong stance -- that is good!! Harley calls this "Plan A," and MWD calls it "be the better option," but it's the same concept -- you show the wayward spouse your BEST SELF before (if they don't turn away from their infidelity) issuing your "I won't remain in an open marriage" boundary.
You did great. LET HER TWIST for awhile; she is GOING to push you to try and find out what you're thinking, but DON'T ANSWER. If it's in person and you have to, just say "We both have some decisions to make, and I have a lot to think about" or something vague like that. Be a broken record and repeat the "I don't want a divorce, but I WON'T live in an open marriage" line and end the convo.
You can do this. Your family needs a hero, bro, and right now it's NOT going to be your wife. Time to go "Papabear."
Starsky
Here is another conundrum. How do I deal with this weekend when she is back? Do we do fun family things or should I refuse to do them? But I want to be with my kids as well. Do we just not talk to each other and not do anything together with the kids, who still don't know anything.
If the kids were already aware of the plans and looking forward to them, keep them. Be civil to your wife -- even courteous/friendly -- but DON'T act like her B.F.F.
If the kids were NOT already aware of the plans, I would cancel them, telling your wife "I don't think it's appropriate considering what's going on right now" or something similar.
We can talk more later about how to keep things together around the kids.
Starsky
Thanks for everything Starsky. The kids do know about the plan. It was just going out to dinner. I just struggle with that piece. How do be nice in front of her but not send the wrong message to her or the kids.
I hope your W is ok (you mentioned pre-op tests).
Treat her like you would a neighbor, shodan. Think of her that way in your interactions. Be friendly. But not overly friendly.
Be your best self in front of her. But not FOR her.
Make sense?
Thanks for everything Starsky. The kids do know about the plan. It was just going out to dinner. I just struggle with that piece. How do be nice in front of her but not send the wrong message to her or the kids.
You're not sending ANY message to the kids, as they don't know yet anything about the A (correct?).
As for your wife, I'm betting you can thread the needle between what D10 and S7 can pick up on, and your wife still reading it all over you that "Oh cr*p; Shodan is NOT okay with this, and this is a side of him I haven't seen before!"
Another thing you can say to your wife when she demands to know what you're thinking/what you're going to do (and trust me, she WILL try to grill you):
"I don't know yet, and frankly I don't owe you any answers at this point. We both have some decisions to make."
I was going to add: If you pull back a little and treat her like you would a neighbor, she's GOING to notice. And it'll make her wheels start spinnin'.
And that's a good thing.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Please don't misunderstand me; do NOT go into "Dikk Mode" with your wife. Your tone should be civil, firm, resolute, and as calm as you can muster. This is no time to go all Neanderthal on her; you just don't want to continue the "BFF" thing anymore either, now that you know about her infidelity.
I was going to add: If you pull back a little and treat her like you would a neighbor, she's GOING to notice. And it'll make her wheels start spinnin'.
And that's a good thing.
Starsky
Thanks all. I do tend to treat my neighbors well
. So at dinner, be civil, ask about her business meetings but focus on the kids. Don't ask if she wants anything, etc. Be happy but don't appear angry. But be curt with her.
And the kids don't know about anything at this time. My D (10) is pretty intuitive, so she might figure something out soon. But my W and I want to put the kids first, hence why she wants me to move to NYC (with no promise of making the M work) so we both can parent the kids. I was going that direction because I figured it gave us the best chance of R until the A was revealed this weekend. Now I know moving to NYC with my W having an A is not the right decision for my family.
However, what is funny is we have been having some great times together (my W and I). I had offered to buy tickets to a concert a few weeks ago (i know, not the right move) and she said no at that time, said it was too soon. But on Friday, as we drank wine and ate the steak that I had cooked, she asked if we were going to the concert the next night and could not remember where we landed. She even looked into getting tickets, but they were way too expensive. This does not seem the move of someone who wants to leave a M. Perhaps she is just confused. But now that the A has been revealed and she refuses to acknowledge it, I just don't know anything any more.
Man, this [censored].
But on Friday, as we drank wine and ate the steak that I had cooked, she asked if we were going to the concert the next night and could not remember where we landed. She even looked into getting tickets, but they were way too expensive. This does not seem the move of someone who wants to leave a M. Perhaps she is just confused. But now that the A has been revealed and she refuses to acknowledge it, I just don't know anything any more.
She may be legitimately confused, or she may want a fallback option if one of the relationships doesn't work out. Whether you're Option #1 or Option #2 in that calculus should matter not one whit to you; "I will not live in an open marriage" I assume is your boundary?
Starsky
yup, totally agree. i do not want to live in an open marriage.
Yep -- no question. The way the guy who mentored ME thru my sitch so elegantly put it one day early on, "Life just handed you a great big sh&t sandwich. Time to start biting."
Steel yourself, brother -- you're in for one helluva ride. But it CAN be done (with no guarantees), and it sounds like you have the benefit of some really good "Plan A"-type interactions with your wife these past few months.
Are you sure this other guy's divorced?
Starsky
I think the other guy is. I had a friend look at his college alumni website and it says he is married BUT I was on his W facebook page (not everything is hidden) and there is no mention of this guy. So I think he is divorced. All of her pictures are with friends but not him.
You mentioned that your wife had stated back in June that she wanted a divorce. Have either one of you met with any attorneys yet?
When you get a moment, tell us what your financial arrangements are, Shodan. You both work; who pays for what? Who pays for her cellphone service?
no, we have not met with attorneys. At least she has not mentioned it to me. I doubt she would have, since she really wants me to move to NYC with her. So if we are divorced before that, somewhat hinders his plans.
Would you recommend that I do?
no, we have not met with attorneys. At least she has not mentioned it to me. I doubt she would have, since she really wants me to move to NYC with her. So if we are divorced before that, somewhat hinders his plans.
Would you recommend that I do?
Yes, I think it's wise. You don't have to actually DO anything (I didn't, not for a good two months) but it's always good to know your rights, responsibilities, potential threats, etc. Most that post here report that it's very empowering and calming.
A good family law attorney, preferably one who specializes in paternal custody and "men's rights" issues, can help you better understand the legal landscape in your jurisdiction, and caution you about things to stay away from.
If you go this route, do NOT tell your wife (but if she asks, don't lie to her -- "Yes, I thought it was wise, considering you had openly threatened divorce multiple times and I wanted to better understand my rights and responsibilities.")
Starsky
Thanks for the advice. How do I get a referral without telling people that my wife wants a divorce? Especially since your advocate for getting someone who specializes in paternal custody/men's rights? Is there a good website? Looking on google now...
Thanks for everything Starsky. The kids do know about the plan. It was just going out to dinner. I just struggle with that piece. How do be nice in front of her but not send the wrong message to her or the kids.
I hope your W is ok (you mentioned pre-op tests).
Missed the 2nd part of this, Sho -- thanks for asking. She has to have sinus surgery next week, so these were just standard pre-op things since she is over 50. All went well.
Wanted to circle back on the family plans. What time do your kids go to bed? I think it would send a strong statement if you kept to your family plans, but after your oldest was down for the night telling your wife "I'm going to go out for about an hour; I won't be late." And being home at a good respectable hour (11-11:30). Go meet a buddy for a beer, or shoot a game of pool by yourself or go to a book store or hit a bucket of balls at a late-night driving range or something.
There is something strong about doing the responsible family thing, but then going out and doing the mysterious manly thing for an hour or two. And prepare for her to blow up your phone with texts while you're out, LOL!!!
Thanks for the advice. How do I get a referral without telling people that my wife wants a divorce? Especially since your advocate for getting someone who specializes in paternal custody/men's rights? Is there a good website? Looking on google now...
You have to do your own research, or ask a trusted co-worker or someone who can keep your confidentiality. You may have to meet with two or three before you find a good one.
What city/state are you in, if you don't mind me asking? I can ask my atty if he can refer me to someone there if you want. Is yours a "fault" or a "no-fault" state?
Again, this is NOT to actually DO anything legally right now -- I would strongly advise you that you do NOT. You're just trying to get information, especially as it relates to any important "do's" or "don't's" right now.
Duhh, you said Boston. Let me know if you want me to ask him.
would love any referrals, thank you.
Chiming in with a useless statement:
That thing Starsky mentioned about you getting the kids to bed and going out for a couple hours??
Yes! Empowering for you. And - for some reason - very attractive to us lady-folks.
Unfortunately, I can't say WHY that is. Maybe because it's "manly."
Oftentimes I think men lose that side of themselves in a marriage.
So yeah. Go be a manly man once in a while. And it'll help with your stress to boot!
I think it's a "my mind may be reeling right now, but I still don't give a flip what you think about me heading out for an hour" thing.
As long as a man has the marriage's (and his wife's) long-term interests always at heart, a woman will not only forgive a short-term "guys only" time thing, but she will probably find it ATTRACTIVE.
(But - make no mistake about it - she ain't gonna TELL you she does. Lol. Not right now anyway.)
very interesting. Learning a lot here. I really appreciate this advice.
In a healthy, non-enmeshed (not co-dependent) relationship, both men AND women should strive to be each other's "frosting," and not their "cake."
It took me a lot of years of work, but I finally realized that it's not only OKAY, but it's HEALTHIER for my attitude toward my wife to be one of "Hey, with or without you, this is my life's purpose, my journey, and these are my passions and interests. There is no one that I've met yet on this Earth that I'd rather walk that journey with than YOU, baby, but if it's not you I'll be okay too, I realize that now."
In fact, I'm STILL not there yet . . . but I'm working on it!
Starsky
one more question (doubtful)...if she asks where I was, what do i say? That I was out? What if I just went to the bookstore? Not super manly.
(But - make no mistake about it - she ain't gonna TELL you she does. Lol. Not right now anyway.)
Great point.
When me and the fetching Mrs. Starsky reconciled, she told me later that "those things you did? When I was having my affair? Don't get me wrong, they P*SSED ME OFF at the time, and I still disagree with one of two of them. But I actually not only RESPECTED you for fighting for our marriage and for our family, but I found it very attractive."
True story.
Starsky
one more question (doubtful)...if she asks where I was, what do i say? That I was out? What if I just went to the bookstore? Not super manly.
A: "Just out. Kids asleep? I'm gonna head to bed, I'm a little tired. G'nite."
one more question (doubtful)...if she asks where I was, what do i say? That I was out? What if I just went to the bookstore? Not super manly.
Of course, the best GAL things are the TRUE things, that hopefully ARE manly -- at least some of them.
What are your interests, your passions? What are maybe some things that you felt you put aside for the sake of your marriage, that were important to you, personally? Sports? Music? Any volunteer work? Other?
What makes Shodan, Shodan?
Dang. That was in response to the other post.
Starsky, what are you, Quick Draw McGraw?
[quote=shodan]
What are your interests, your passions? What are maybe some things that you felt you put aside for the sake of your marriage, that were important to you, personally? Sports? Music? Any volunteer work? Other?
What makes Shodan, Shodan?
Great question...one of the issues in our marriage had been that I was pretty obsessed with martial arts. I practice 2-3 nights per week and sometimes weekends for an hour. I quit it when my W dropped the D bomb on me. I realized that it had been taking me away from my family, my W...I was not present and left her by herself a few nights per week. It caused me stress at work b/c I wanted to get things done so i could go practice not be with my family and W. So, I cannot go back to that. Hence why my 180 was being devoted to my family and my W. But with the affair, being devoted to my W would not be a GAL move.
Dang. That was in response to the other post.
Starsky, what are you, Quick Draw McGraw?
I'm more of a Bubba-Looey, actually. Always envisioned myself more of a sidekick, lol. Or maybe El Kabong?
[quote=shodan]
What are your interests, your passions? What are maybe some things that you felt you put aside for the sake of your marriage, that were important to you, personally? Sports? Music? Any volunteer work? Other?
What makes Shodan, Shodan?
Great question...one of the issues in our marriage had been that I was pretty obsessed with martial arts. I practice 2-3 nights per week and sometimes weekends for an hour. I quit it when my W dropped the D bomb on me. I realized that it had been taking me away from my family, my W...I was not present and left her by herself a few nights per week. It caused me stress at work b/c I wanted to get things done so i could go practice not be with my family and W. So, I cannot go back to that. Hence why my 180 was being devoted to my family and my W. But with the affair, being devoted to my W would not be a GAL move.
Then I'd advise you work it back in 1-2 nights per week, or find a way you can still do it and still spend time with the kids?
You want to find maybe one or two things you used to do for your wife, that you now do for YOU, without apology. Nothing overboard.
You have a HUGE advantage here, the way I see it Sho. (and I know it doesn't feel like it right now, but bear with me . . . ) Most people come here to the Infidelity section of this community in a quandary, because they know (about the spouse's affair), their spouse KNOWS that they know, and yet they haven't really had any chance to do all the self-improvement stuff.
So they're left with "If I confront, I come across like an a-hole, my wife says 'See? More of the same controlling Shodan!'" or they ignore the 500-lb. gorilla in the room, continue to DB, doing the dishes, the laundry, rubbing their wife's feet and basically doing the cuckold thing. To which the wife things "Blccccch; that is SO unattractive! Why isn't he fighting for me? Why is he allowing me to do this, and being so passive and WEAK?"
YOU on the other hand, just by chance, got to do what sounds like an awesome "Plan A" (self-improvement and marital improvement), and THEN found out about the affair! You can now play a harder stance that you could have otherwise, in my opinion, because your wife has SEEN what a "brand new marriage with Shodan" would look like, if she decides to end her affair.
So if you pull back in the opposite direction now, she'll know it's clearly in response to her affair, and your own self-protection. Don't get me wrong, she won't actually SAY that, and, you know, give you CREDIT for it . . . but I think you're perfectly safe in pulling waaaayyy back here.
That's just my opinion. Others here do advocate a softer stance, in fairness.
Starsky
Great question...one of the issues in our marriage had been that I was pretty obsessed with martial arts. I practice 2-3 nights per week and sometimes weekends for an hour. I quit it when my W dropped the D bomb on me. I realized that it had been taking me away from my family, my W...I was not present and left her by herself a few nights per week. It caused me stress at work b/c I wanted to get things done so i could go practice not be with my family and W. So, I cannot go back to that.
Your kids are 10 and 7; any chance you could sign them up for some MA classes and do that
with them? Some quality daddy/daughter and daddy/son time?
Just brainstormin' here.
I'll be offline the next 3 hours or so. Try not to do anything drastic, Sho, willya? I'll try to check back in on you later.
Remember, "Hmmm, I'm not sure how I feel about that now," or "I'll have to think about that, and get back to you," and "I think we both have some decisions to make." VAGUENESS IS YOUR DB FRIEND!
Starsky
(But - make no mistake about it - she ain't gonna TELL you she does. Lol. Not right now anyway.)
Great point.
When me and the fetching Mrs. Starsky reconciled, she told me later that "those things you did? When I was having my affair? Don't get me wrong, they P*SSED ME OFF at the time, and I still disagree with one of two of them. But I actually not only RESPECTED you for fighting for our marriage and for our family, but I found it very attractive."
Starsky
Sorry to jump in here.... But does this stance work as well for the ladies?
---GGG
Worked for me!
It's called "confidence." And my H has said - since coming home - it's the very thing that re-attracted him home.
What's it that Starsky says? "People - especially men - value most that which is difficult to obtain."
That is TRUTH.
YOU on the other hand, just by chance, got to do what sounds like an awesome "Plan A" (self-improvement and marital improvement), and THEN found out about the affair! You can now play a harder stance that you could have otherwise, in my opinion, because your wife has SEEN what a "brand new marriage with Shodan" would look like, if she decides to end her affair.
BOOM! Yes! I TOTALLY see the same thing!
wow, great advice here. I may try to work back into martial arts, but I need to tread lightly for myself. It was causing me to be a different person. It made me stressed, which caused anxiety for everyone, b/c I was practicing a lot. My kids were also doing it and because of my tenure in the art, it caused them stress as well. But I agree, going back 1-2 nights per week may not be to bad if I can make it work with the kids. But my kids will go back ONLY if they want to.
Another question...we sleep in the same bed (when she is here). I assume I tell her to sleep in another room now that I have confirmed the A? Also, I make her coffee in the morning. Should I stop doing that (I would do that for a neighbor). Trying to figure out the balance between a hard line and just plain not nice.
And again, I want to thank you for all of your support. The hole in my heart is a little smaller today. I hope to perhaps even get some sleep tonight.
I'll defer to Starsky re: the sleeping situation.
As for coffee? Do you make coffee for yourself and her at the same time? Or do you make it specifically for her in the morning?
I mean, I have my own opinion about that. You don't want to come across as being petty and snarky. I, for one, see nothing wrong with you making coffee in the morning. That is a neighborly, subtle gesture that keeps her feeling her road back into the M is smoothly paved. But it doesn't feel like "pressure" or "pursuit" to me.
Re: martial arts: if it doesn't feel good - or if it doesn't MAKE you feel good - right now, don't do it. This GAL thing shouldn't feel "forced," per se, except to the extent that you're having to force yourself to do things that make you happy when you'd otherwise be rocking back and forth in a closet, avoiding the real world because you feel your whole world is crumbling. Do things that make you happy and give your PMA a boost. If it stresses you? Don't do it.
At the same time, if attempting MA again is something you could do to prove to yourself that you can do it without it causing you stress - in other words, if you can make that *your own* 180 in *your own* life - then go for it!
I hope that makes sense.
Agree with Train on the coffee and the MA, for precisely the reasons she stated.
As for the marital bed, that's a sensitive one. The one "given" around here is that YOU (the betrayed spouse) should never leave the marital bed and almost never leave the marital home. If the wayward spouse is uncomfortable there, then SHE should leave.
I personally never asked my wife to leave our bedroom, and nor did I object when she decided to do it on her own. Many wayward spouses will do it on their own, either out of guilt/shame, or a belief that they're actually "cheating" on their affair partner while sleeping there (yeah, I know), or -- much more pragmatically -- they just want to be able to do a late next phone or heavy texting session with their affair partner, unencumbered.
I would say to do whatever feels authentic to you.
Starsky
Can I add?:
However, while she's involved in an A, even if she stays in the marital bed, do not ML to her.
I screwed the pooch on that early on in my sitch, before I found out H was involved in a PA (he said - and I believed him (stupid me) - it was only an EA)... and I came close to screwing the same pooch even DURING my sitch (after I discovered it was a PA). It's hard to turn it down as the LBS. But if you're drawing a line in the sand, draw it. And protect your own health.
Thanks for this advice. The coffee thing is just something that I have been doing. I would make it for a neighbor.
Now that I have drawn the line in the sand re: the M and the A and told her that we cannot move forward until the A is over, do I bring this up again when I see her in person this weekend or do I just let it be said what I said? She knows my stance, knows that I know about the A and knows that I want her to end it. My gut says not to bring it up again. She needs her space to think about it.
Now that I have drawn the line in the sand re: the M and the A and told her that we cannot move forward until the A is over, do I bring this up again when I see her in person this weekend or do I just let it be said what I said?
Let it be. Continuing to bring it up only weakens your stance.
so i just learned that my wife lied to me about a girl's weekend a while back. May 31-June 1. She told me that she had a girl's weekend with some friends, last minute thing. Her dad had died a few weeks before, so I just figure she needed to blow off some steam. After learning of the A a few days ago, I emailed the person whom she said she went with and asked for some recommendations on the location. I told her that my W had a few friends with her name, so perhaps she was not the right person to ask. Her friend just wrote back and said that she did not do a girl's weekend with my W. I wonder if this is when she first got together with the OM because a week later she asked for the D? I want to forward that email thread to my W, but I am sure that is not the right approach.
I want to forward that email thread to my W, but I am sure that is not the right approach.
What do you hope to accomplish by forwarding the email to W? Trust me- I've tried this approach and although it will make you feel good for the next 5 minutes for calling her out, it does nothing but come across as snooping and controlling in W's mind. Besides, it's clear in past conversations you've had with her that she'll just come up with another lie to cover her tracks.
She already knows where you stand on A, so no reason to bring up additional intel. If only I could apply the advice I give to my own sitch
I hear ya. i need to stay strong. Of course I am doubting everything that she has said or done.
Shodan,
You're getting great advice from Starsky and others here.
I don't think it's wrong to gather evidence of an affair. Gather it, store it someplace safely. Do not, piecemeal, dole it out to her. It will make you look desperate and petty. It will only make her lie and go underground with the affair. If/when you decide to give her an ultimatum (not just yet), THAT's when you might think about revealing what you know. Not until then.
I would think that Martial Arts are a stress release and would help you build character, etc. perhaps 1-2 times a week MAX for physical fitness and to help you zen-out. If it's a stressor and making you nervous and affecting your work, it's not so good. The old karate master once said the heart of a kareteka is open and transparent, it bears no one malice, but beware, it is also the heart of a tiger. I envision that for you.
If you want to save your marriage, keep taking the advice these guys are giving you. On the other hand, for a humorous, but grim approach to saving a marriage when your spouse is cheating check out the website Chump Lady. Chump Lady isn't very optimistic about saving a marriage when someone cheats. However, she does encourage you to keep your dignity, protect your assets, get legal advice and lay down healthy boundaries. She cautions against playing the "pick me" game and begging, etc. She simply says "You are not an option, you are her spouse, she needs to make a choice -- sooner than later." I think Starsky and others will counsel more patience with a strong boundary. Chump Lady is, in my opinion, too abrupt -- but she's piss in your pants funny.
Best of luck. My prayers are with you.
Theoden
I want to forward that email thread to my W, but I am sure that is not the right approach.
Well, at least your instincts are good.
Not even a difficult one.
I'm sorry you're having to continue to uncover additional deceit. I'm sure there's more, but it's best to continue a "I know all about you and SG" stance and keep it vague. When you tell her you know everything, and she doesn't know what you know and what you DON'T know, she has to assume you do know each piece. Make sense? As sukky as it is, there is power and leverage in that.
By all means, if SHE ever brings up in conversation, something like "Well, like when I went away on my girl's weekend, we . . . ." you should put your hand up in the "stop" position and say "PLEASE STOP IT. We both know you're lying to me right now. I know all about who you were with that weekend, and it's incredibly disrespectful to sit here and lie to my face. We don't allow it from our kids and I'm certainly not going to accept it from you." (and leave) . . . but to bring it up now is NOT a good idea, as you already know.
Did you see my question yesterday about your finances?
Starsky
Now that I have drawn the line in the sand re: the M and the A and told her that we cannot move forward until the A is over, do I bring this up again when I see her in person this weekend or do I just let it be said what I said?
Let it be. Continuing to bring it up only weakens your stance.
SI think Starsky and others will counsel more patience with a strong boundary.
Got a chuckle out of that one, theo -- gotta be the first time anyone ever used "Starsky" and "more patience" in the same sentence, LOL!
Starsky...I did not see the question about our finances?
Who pays for what? You both work, right?
WHO PAYS FOR HER CELLPHONE??
When you get a moment, tell us what your financial arrangements are, Shodan. You both work; who pays for what? Who pays for her cellphone service?
We both work and have shared bank acct and one shared Amex card. Never been an issue until now. We make an equal amount of money.
Another question.... I bet she comes home this weekend and asks for a separation. She won't admit to the A but will say she needs space and time to think. She'd likely will say that because I don't trust her proves that we need to separate. Should I agree to the separation? I assume yes.
You don't have to agree to the separation, since that's not what you want.
However, as Starsky said earlier, if she wants a separation, she has to be the one to leave.
We both work and have shared bank acct and one shared Amex card. Never been an issue until now. We make an equal amount of money.
However she is now squandering marital (family) assets on her affair. Girls' weekend, cellphone used to conduct her affair, possibly gifts for OM or God-knows-what to wear on her "girls weekend" with him.
A family court judge is not going to look kindly on that, and it will be accounted for should you two pursue divorce or legal separation (does your state allow for formal LS?)
At a minimum, YOU need to be keeping an accounting of this, and you also need to lay a "I will not allow our family's assets to be spent on your affair" boundary. We can help you do that.
Another question.... I bet she comes home this weekend and asks for a separation. She won't admit to the A but will say she needs space and time to think. She'd likely will say that because I don't trust her proves that we need to separate. Should I agree to the separation? I assume yes.
As I stated in my previous post, I'm not sure if your state offers a legal (formal) separation or not, but speaking generally your reply is "I don't want a divorce, and haven't really thought about a separation, but if you want to leave I will not stop you. I'm certainly not leaving, and nor am I going to allow the kids to leave."
But this is where you need that legal advice we were discussing yesterday.
so I just met with a L. Couple of things that i learned.
There don't do legal S in Boston, but we can file certain petitions (effectively restraining orders) that force both parties to spend money only on normal day to day expenses.
She cannot take the kids to NYC no matter what. MA has a child removal law that effectively says the kids stay in the state where they have been residing for the past 6 months.
so I just met with a L. Couple of things that i learned.
There don't do legal S in Boston, but we can file certain petitions (effectively restraining orders) that force both parties to spend money only on normal day to day expenses.
She cannot take the kids to NYC no matter what. MA has a child removal law that effectively says the kids stay in the state where they have been residing for the past 6 months.
Good work! Now don't you feel a little better at least?
honestly, not really. makes it seem more real.
It is real. You need to realize that.
It is real. You need to realize that.
How to balance that "brutal reality" with the mix of hope and optimism one needs in order to keep pushing forward?
This is THE best philosophy I've ever encountered, personally, that I think threads the needle between the two:
STOCKDALE PARADOX:
"You must retain faith that you can prevail to greatness in the end, while retaining the discipline to confront the brutal facts of your current reality."
Admiral James Stockdale was shot down in Viet Nam and imprisoned in the "Hanoi Hilton" for almost eight years. He was also its highest-ranking officer. He writes about his experience in his book, In Love and War. How did he survive while others did not? "Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties." He adds, however, what distinguishes his position from simple "optimism" - and formulates what has become known as the Stockdale Paradox: "and confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."
This is the critical difference which guards against the endless disappointment that optimism’s carrots' evasiveness create - until, maybe, the reward in the end. On the other hand, an ability to continue making realistic assessments of one's current life situation measures and apportions one’s energies and reserves to better face each challenge as it comes, thus positioning one with a stronger chance to prevail.
The more-brutal paradigm is the "You're already dead" scene, from Band of Brothers.
"You're Already Dead"
Shodan,
Stay strong.
I guess the best thing you can do is make a contingency plan. Run it by the good folks here.
She may come back and say nothing. Play it by ear.
If she comes back and wants a separation/divorce, don't fight her on it. You can pull the "I don't want to make hasty decisions" speech only for so long and the mysterious, "I have a lot to think about" line for a limited amount of time. If she's resolute in wanting a divorce, you dragging your heels will only give away your power and get you hit by the divorce truck she's driving.
You are strong, you have a sense of self, and you have things YOU want.
You reminding her you DON'T want a divorce while you are divorcing is kind of weak and pathetic. If she sees your serious about moving on without her, she might take notice.
If you were to divorce, what do YOU want?
Shared custody?
Her to move out?
Sell the house, etc?
If she wants to move to NYC -- she's free to go. You and the kids stay in your home in Boston. She can come up every other weekend and hang with them.
Most of us who had cheating spouses acted like we were footnotes in our spouses life. It's YOUR life. You need to act like you are the main character in your own play.
As an aside there's a lot of research on lost loves (It's called the Lost Love Project). Affairs that re-kindle a past romance are VERY powerful and are almost irresistible. They succeed at about the same rate as regular affairs (5% of the time). If she does leave you and marries him, that marriage has only a 25% chance of succeeding. This means it will, most likely, burn out. However. she will put you through hell before it's done. You may not have the emotional resolve to outlast her affair. She sees younger self in her ex boyfriend. This [censored]. Of course, you don't have to sit around and wait for her to get tired of her lover. You have options.
Best of luck.
--Alan
Thanks Theoden. I agree that one concern that I have is that they rekindle some lost love. He treated her poorly when they date and cheated on her all of the time, but she stayed with him for 12+ months. But you are right, I need to know what I want (besides not divorcing). I want to be happy and be a great father to my kids. I want her involved in the kids' lives and would be good with joint physical custody if she lives nearby.
I think this weekend, she likely will say she wants to separate and get her space. She will deny the A. My only hope that she won't move to NYC is that she loves our kids and will not want to see them every other weekend. I know she loves our kids. But she will be upset with me for not moving there (after saying I would, but that was before I learned about the A). That is no reason for her to stay in our marriage. She needs to want to stay in our marriage not because she cannot make her A work from a distance.
So i accidently sent an email to my wife that I meant to send to myself (I do that all of the time as a reminder). I copied Starsky's comments to say "I don't want a divorce, and haven't really thought about a separation, but if you want to leave I will not stop you. I'm certainly not leaving, and nor am I going to allow the kids to leave. "I will not allow our family's assets to be spent on your affair" and meant to send it to myself. I sent it to my wife by accident.
Uggh (sorta)
She texted me just now and said "I just got back to my desk and am blown away by your email."
I have not responded to her text. Should I? I think the answer is no and I just keep pulling back.
Thoughts?
Wow, ok. Damage, but nothing that's going to break the bank either way.
I would reply "Yeah, well this is pretty difficult on all of us."
or
"Looks like we both have some decisions to make. Not sure what the future will bring but I've decided that I'm at least going to be honest with myself and with you moving forward, and calling it what it is."
or
"Yeah I've gotten pretty good at 'blown away' too lately. Lots to think about."
Just some suggestions. You could always just ignore, as there's really no question in there and it's not about the kids.
Starsky
Thanks for this feedback and your suggestions. You are good at this.
I think I am just going to ignore it. Pull away a bit. Let her come to me.
Good call. There will be a time and a place for each of those (or something similar).
I've got a million of 'em. Another favorite: "You don't get to tell me how I'm supposed to feel about this." (alt. version, which I used when she was P*SSED about a heartfelt -- but direct -- long handwritten letter our D-then-18 left her): "You don't get to tell (D18) how she gets to feel about this."
We call 'em "truth darts."
These are some of the ones I used in my sitch:
TRUTH DARTS:
-I will not hide your affair.
-I will not financially support your affair.
-It's your mess, you clean it up.
-Send her an email with STD statistics, no other comments.
-Secrets kill marriages.
-You are being played.
- Your current behavior is not helping the children.
- "No contact" means "no contact". Working in close quarters with someone who's admitted being attracted to you, and vice-versa, is inappropriate in a HEALTHY marriage. It's absolutely DESTRUCTIVE in one that's on the rocks!
- How will you be able to counsel your daughters one day if they're having problems? To cut and run? To have an affair?
- You are placing your friend before your husband, and your friendship before your marriage.
- Forget ME for a moment; you are not going to like yourself someday if you keep going down this path.
- (S-then-14) and (S-then-11) need you more than ever.
IF SHE TRIES "R" TALK:
DON'T argue past points with her. Simply state the truth of today.
- She is having an affair.
- It is impossible to analyze issues with the marriage as along as she is having an affair.
- You can't analyze a relationship where one partner is making unilateral decisions to bring a third person into the relationship.
- Betrayal is an intensely painful action for one person to inflict on another.
These are to be "landed" no more than 1-2x per week. And only when in context. "You can't teach a wayward" when they are in their PEA-induced euphoria about their affair partner, but you CAN land little "truth darts" here and there.
ALL of this needs to be done while cleaning up your own side of the street. Work on those issues that YOU know are really things you need to work on -- those criticisms of her that "sting" (as opposed to any recent "re-writing of marital history")
Smart to not reply, sho.
I always asked myself this when deciding to respond to my H's texts, especially when he was lashing out or playing the victim (both of which happened VERY often):
1. Is the text asking a question? If yes, then is it a valid question that warrants a response?
2. Is this an emergency?
3. Does the text have anything to do with the children?
Everything else, I just ignored.
It bugged the crap out of him, but that's not why I did it. I ignored him so that I wouldn't engage with him and make our sitch even worse.
Watch that technology, man. It's brutal sometimes. But take heart: you aren't the first person who has hit the wrong button or sent something to the wrong person. A valuable saying I would tell myself when I would slip-up: "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."
You are one smart cookie.
You are one smart cookie.
That would make
two of you then.
Great advice and truth darts. As always thank you to both of you. What will be hard is this weekend and how a balance drawing the line and working on myself and where I can be better. I need to make sure I am portrayed only a fool would leave.
You did all of that portrayin' already.
Just continue with those changes that you wanted to do for YOU, and stop trying to please or pursue your wife in any way. So long as she's with another man she's not going to be emotionally receptive to it anyway.
Fair point.
Thinking ahead a bit, but what if she never admits to the A? My W comes back Sat but heads back to NYC T-W next week (which I assume will be extended by a day or two). She then is in NYC the following week for a few days. I cannot stop that, I know. Do I just stay the course, stay patient and continue to work on myself and be the best dad that I can be?
For the most part, yes. While getting your legal and financial ducks in a row, in case things come to that.
Personally, I finally grew weary of my wife continuing to lie to me and to everyone else about her affair, and I called her on it. Texted her one day and told her I wanted to meet her in one hour, and when we met I brought a big manila envelope with me, with a bunch of papers inside (they were all blank). Brought her one particularly salacious snippet of a parking lot rendezvous between her and OM in her car, and played it for her. Told her I was tired of all the deceit, and it had to stop. That we raised our kids that "families always tell the truth," and I wasn't going to stop now, and if she didn't stop lying to our adult children and to her parents, I was going to show them everything I had.
Gave her exactly five minutes to decide.
She agreed to let me drive her to her parents house, where she told them the truth (she had been lying about ME through the whole thing, making me out to be some crazy person for claiming she was having an affair). Then she phoned both of our adult daughters (then 18 and 21) that night and told them the truth about OM.
It took another month or so for her affair to end, and our reconciliation to begin . . . and it was rough. Had our fits and starts. Took a good TWO YEARS of hard "piecing" work. But I was determined that while I couldn't stop her AFFAIR, I damned sure wasn't going to put up with her DECEIT -- not to the very people in this world that I loved and respected the most.
It worked for me, but it's not for everyone. And it's really not even DB. It's sort of the "after the after the LRT" in MWD's book I guess.
She can deny it all she wants, but she can't stop you from proceeding as it's the truth. YOU control that.
Starsky
Wow. Thanks for sharing that. How long after you confronted her about the A and when you finally said what you said?
Given this is still early for me, I assume I stay the course.
And I know the answer to my next question, but I need to ask. She told me she confided in one of her friends about wanting a divorce. It sounds like her friend was comforting and of course sided with her. But, I know her friend would have a different view if they knew about the A. Especially since she knows this guy from college as well and did not like him. He treated my W poorly back then and cheated on her all of the time. I was not going to call out the A to her friend, but perhaps mention to her that there are two sides to all stories and that she might have a different view if she knew the full story.
I think it was 60 days in -- I'll have to check my journal.
If the friend asks, don't lie to her. But don't go looking for trouble with a non family member.
I'm actually glad Starsky told you that the way he told you. B/C he did also tell you this is NOT a DB method,
but it's not necessarily wrong. It's not just espoused here as part of "the way" but like he says, it helped in HIS situation.
I happen to think he got kind of lucky or maybe he just handled it carefully enough AND OR maybe his wife just pushed him too much.
But usually, and I mean almost always, I see the involvement of others backfire.
That's b/c USUALLY it's coming from a place of anger (punishment) which makes the LBS look like a raving vindictive nut, or just an angry person who "deserved" to be cheated on (sorry but I really have seen that said more than once)
or it comes from the desire to control the other person, and or to avoid owning your part in whatever the marriage problems were.
I have never seen it help to involve a 3rd party, I have seen it hurt the chances of a recon in every other case (except Starsky's). My HS Class reunion was coming up and on our FB page, some LBW posted about OW "stealing her h" and warning our classmates not to "let their h's out of their sight" or OW would steal them...a number of people contacted me (I'm the admin of the FB page) and asked me to delete the LBW's post.
No one said a word about OW (our classmate) or the h (also a classmate) and the few comments I heard were all negative and all about the wife!
I felt bad for the w, but as my classmates said, "why put that on OUR class page?"
Her post was designed to embarrass/shame her h and the OW, obviously.
And that did not reflect well on the Wife, and that's how it was seen.
Right or wrong, that's^^ not an uncommon reaction. Just so you know.
Please Keep your eye on the ball and the ball is YOU, not the OM. He's a symptom, not the cause.
Do you get that?
What are YOUR 180s? What are the traits in you that you want to work on?
25,
With all due respect, did you even READ his initial post? It's ALL ABOUT the positive changes he made. Meanwhile, his wife PLAYED HIM.
There was nothing "lucky" about a strong hybrid approach of positive self-improvement mixed with strong boundaries and self-protection. It's worked for PLENTY of people around here, including some current sitches (like Train's, just off the top of my head).
The OM may not be the CAUSE, but he is most certainly the most immediate OBSTACLE.
Starsky
Lucky? I think Starsky has some of the best advice out there. Why? Because it works. Sho, do not be the doormat. If you want to take the "be the better man" approach, make sure you are doing it for YOU!
For six weeks now since the BD, I have been heavily invested in 180s and focusing on ME. I made drastic changes in my life, was more present for my family and W and planned fun events. My W noticed these changes (she told me). So if I had not discovered the A, I would have continued down this path.
However, knowing about the A changes everything for me. With OM in the picture, we cannot work on our M. But I also understand the risk of telling anyone else about the A. My reason for doing so is not to shame my W. She has done that on her own. My reason is she will look to her friends for advice and if they hear her side of the story only, the advice will be skewed and prejudiced.