Starting a new thread. I'm moving to this forum from newcomers since it's a little quieter over here.
Links to old:
living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (1) living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (2)living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (3)living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (4)living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (5)GAL: I have a wine dinner tonight. Tonight it's California, and they'll bring in the vintner; he'll give a spiel throughout dinner as we have different wines with each course. The pairings are always excellent. I always enjoy these dinners. At the first one, I was a little anxious about the company and how I would fit in, but by now I've learned that these people are pretty comfortable in their own skin, and that in itself is so relaxing.
Nice, that sounds super fun!
Oooh, I wanna go!
Welcome over to the dark side, Zew. No rules in a knife fight over here.
Starsky
Last month it was a sake dinner. I was skeptical, but now I've been schooled. 3 out of 4 were very good.
Last month it was a sake dinner. I was skeptical, but now I've been schooled. 3 out of 4 were very good.
Sake makes me hurl.
It used to be that tequila and sake were probably the ONLY two alcoholic drinks I couldn't stand (and most, I really enjoy), and I've since developed a taste for tequila as I've tried some much better ones.
But sake??
That stuff's just NASTY! lol
Starsky
Well, that had been my sake experience as well. However, I can now attest that there are excellent sakes. Try something in the Dai Ginjyo class.
Tequila: - my thought there is that cacti should be left to rot on the ground.
LOL!!!
I have never - let me repeat: NEVER - met a sake I liked.
But I'm willing to try anything once. Or, I guess, a recommended version of something I've never liked ... once.
Pour the sake.
And, Starsky, I haven't been a fan of tequila since my late-high-school days (hurl!) But recently, I was introduced to Patron. It's amazing what top-shelf tequila can do to minimize the bad taste from high school. Still, you'll never catch me shelling out that kinda cash for a bottle of Platinum Petron. I'll stick to my $10 bottles of wine! Lol.
Me too, Train! I loves me the grape!!
Zew, pay close attention to this Train chick. She's a wise one with the advice!!
Starsky
Hahaha. Awwwww shucks, Starsky. You make me blush.
Hope the in-laws are doing better?
Yes, and thanks for asking, Train.
Sorry for the hijack, Zew, but today's my birthday so I can do whatever I want! lol
What?!? HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Starsky!!!!
Sorry, too, for the hijack, zew. But a birthday - especially Starsky's - is something to be celebrated!!! Glad the in-laws are doing better! Great day!
So here's where I am right now.
The wine dinner was excellent last night. It always is, and the food was amazing. A bit of a downer at the end when the D'd person across from me started telling us about her evil spouse...
On the W front:
- OM3 is history - she dumped him over a week ago. He didn't appreciate that. He was a client. He sabotaged a deal she put together for him, threw her under the bus. Commission evaporated.
All so ridiculously predictable. Don't get your meat where you get your bread. She did figure out that he f'd her over because she f'd him over.
These were consequences to her actions, and I didn't impose any of it.
- OM2 is back. They have decided they are just friends with benefits.
- W has started to leave our bed around midnight, sleep in the guest room until about 5AM, then come back to our bed. She's making a statement there, but doesn't want to deal with telling the kids.
back at the Zew:
- I'm leaving on vacation this weekend with kids. W will be alone without the kids for 2 weeks for the first time ever. 2 weeks of unfettered debauchery.
- As I said, I will be doing a lot of soul searching, but I'm about done. I really can't tolerate an open marriage where W has a friend with benefits.
- I have written a letter that I will give to W when I leave out.
It's just the typical "sorry about this, accept my part in demise of M, don't want a D, I'm willing to work with you on the issues, can't tolerate an open M, both need to make some decisions" letter we've seen here before. No blame, no judgment, just an offer to R.
Yes, I know -- save the 2x4's. It's all been said, and it will not change her mind in the least.
It's for me though. I want to give it to her as the statement of my position. I'm thinking of it like a "best and final". It may well be the last thing I write to her. It will be the offer document of record. W will never be able to say I didn't offer the moon to R.
I know she'll mock it with her friends, and go through the whole "too little, too late" thing again with them and play victim. That talk is easy though, when Zew is paying all your bills.
She has been full of "If he really wanted to R, he'd be trying harder..." kind of bravado. She also thinks that I only went to MC for the lawsuit, and I kind of think she is interested in going back to MC.
If she's serious about any of that, and I can no longer tell what is or isn't serious with her on a day to day basis, she should get that the time has come.
I have 180'd what I can, and I have developed a really good R with D13. W has recognized that and thinks it is good.
When I come back from vacation, I'll be looking at her actions and asking for her thoughts.
She'll either be willing to take the leap of faith and want to work, or she'll give some mealy mouthed "don't know, need time" answer.
I hope for the former, but fully expect the latter. That will cause me to file immediately. My stuff is in order. I have that 14 month filing window, and I want to save some of that time in case we try to R, fail and then need to D. And no, that's not an attitude for failure - I think this is getting pretty mechanical now.
I know some have suggested that I file sooner, but for me, I wanted to use as much of the time W gave me as I needed to get my financial and emotional crap in order. For me, the expectation when filing is D. I had to get myself to the point of being able to face the consequences of that; i.e. W really is the fool that would leave me, or at least not even try to reconcile with me.
Now I would be a fool to tell anyone that I know what will happen after that, or how I will react to it, so I won't even speculate.
...and that's where I am. And a couple of weeks of decompression will only put me more firmly there.
It's just the typical "sorry about this, accept my part in demise of M, don't want a D, I'm willing to work with you on the issues, can't tolerate an open M, both need to make some decisions" letter we've seen here before. No blame, no judgment, just an offer to R.
Yes, I know -- save the 2x4's. . . .
Hey, no lumber from me, my twin brutha of a different mutha. In fact, I wrote one myself and gave me to my wife. I'll have to see if I can find a copy and post it here, minus the names and stuff. You might enjoy it. There is something to be said for getting one final, hit-all-the-right-notes statement off of your chest, and as long as you're authentic in what you state I really don't see anything wrong with it so long as you're not expecting it to be
effective.
Starsky
As you well know, I took the "Effective Writing" course with W several times and failed.
Hey Zee,
I think it sounds like a good plan. Your ready, and I remember many moons ago you posted about only filing when you were ready to face the consequences of a D. Seems to me you are at peace with where things are at. You've been patient, not reactive, and have been very organized and methodical with your planning. I think you have a plan laid out, and are prepared for whichever outcome occurs.
And your right, if your W chooses to be the fool, there is nothing you can do about it. I've realized that actually, should my W chose to not R, there's several options out there. I'm sure your aware of that distant thought anyways.
It's only too bad your on the opposite side of the continent. My vacay is at the same time. Sure we could swap some doozies over a few drinks
Good luck and enjoy your vacation.
Dev
Thanks Dev.
I have a plan.
I can see two outcomes.
One is a lot of work, and I don't know if it ever turns out well for anyone, but I signed up for it and I think it has the best chance. Like yours, W has a long, long way to go (and I'm not denying any guilt here), and I know about a lot of dirty laundry (literally and figuratively) that I'd have to get over.
The other one is a lot of work. It will work out for me, since it will be up to only me to make it so, but it will suck for kids.
Next time I'm out in the couve, I'm buying. Wingman?
Yeah Zew,
Couldn't agree with you more on the dual outcomes. Unfortunately, my W sees both outcomes as destroying the kids either way. I will help them as best I can.
I know I will be fine too, and that's a great feeling. It's my kids that keep me in this struggle. And of course, they are motivation enough. My dirty laundry pile is equally impressive. Going to need a lot of Spray and Wash for some bad stains if it goes that way.
It's a deal. As most M men do, I know all the hotspots, hit me up when your here.
Dev
Just stick to straight Goose with a side of lemon and nothing can go wrong :0).
Just popped in to catch up on your sitch and wish you a peaceful vacation.
I have never - let me repeat: NEVER - met a sake I liked.
But I'm willing to try anything once. Or, I guess, a recommended version of something I've never liked ... once.
Pour the sake.
And, Starsky, I haven't been a fan of tequila since my late-high-school days (hurl!) But recently, I was introduced to Patron. It's amazing what top-shelf tequila can do to minimize the bad taste from high school. Still, you'll never catch me shelling out that kinda cash for a bottle of Platinum Petron. I'll stick to my $10 bottles of wine! Lol.
Thanks, twinmom.
The vacation could get tense with S9 and D13 if it is cold, rainy, and there's no wifi.
But if it's sunny and warm, there will be gin and lemonade all afternoon (it's a cottage thing), and single malt or cognac at night.
Clear night skies, plenty of shooting stars. Lake. Boats. Childhood friends.
Bonding time with me and kids, and kids and grandparents. I want to give them the best trip possible, because it could get really ugly next month. I hate to think what we might put them through after this.
...and no W, and none of her life-sapping crazy.
OK, so this is what that would look like.
Again, I'm not counting on an effect here - this is kind of the last call for Zew letter.
This is the one I put out as the standing offer.
It's the one that maybe she reads a few months down the road if she ever bottoms out, and gives her some hope.
I'm looking for anyone to catch me on anything controlling, judgmental, score keeping, blaming or just over the top.
W,
I wanted to reaffirm my position.
I am sorry we're at this point; I fully accept responsibility for my part in it.
I am sorry I that I did not recognize your attempts to communicate your unhappiness to me.
I do not want to divorce; I believe reconciliation has more to offer us and our family.
If you choose to join me you will find that I am fully committed to working on our issues, including my own that brought us to this point.
I know it will take a leap of faith. I believe that if we let go of the anger and resentment and commit to honest, open communication that we can succeed.
I have always had the belief that if we worked together, we could overcome any challenge. We have overcome many over the years.
I would like to think we can do that again now. There is a lot of help available to us if we decide to make things work.
I so much want to get out of the rut we've been in and get back to spending time with you and doing things as a couple and with other people.
We have misconceptions about each other that could be resolved if we communicated directly with each other.
I welcome you having an active role in our finances because we could actually start planning what we want to spend for us and for the kids.
I still believe in us. We both want the best for our kids, and we both want a more balanced and more fulfilling marriage than we had.
If we stop clinging to past wrongs and focus on the future, we can ask each other for what we want and need,
and build a relationship that satisfies us both. I do want to see you happy.
We have to move on from where we are.
I am not willing to live in an open marriage and we cannot work on our marriage as long as there is a third person involved.
We each have big decisions to make as to how to proceed from here. Please let me know your thoughts.
Zew
I'm no expert at all, but I thought that was really great. Didn't come across as judgemental in any way. It's your thoughts and feelings, and perhaps most importantly it's pretty authentic and genuine. Of course, she will probably not respond, but you will have placed your thoughts and feelings on paper. Nice.
Thanks for the response, Dev. I added a few things since, but I think I'm safe.
She just asked me for some cash, for while I'm gone. I hate it, because I know she will use it for the salon visit before seeing OM next week, and she was also looking for enough cash to do a L consult about D while I'm gone. i.e. although I fund her CC, (to the same level as child support would be) it's transparent, so she wants some cash for those "hidden" expenses.
This always puts me in a spin. It's controlling not to give her cash, but it irks me because I know what it's for. I don't want her too upset before I give her this letter tomorrow, and it's all I can do to hold back "no cash while you have A". I guess I'll let it go this time until we talk when I get back. If we opt for the filing plan, then no cash. Until then, I'll not stir the pot.
In two weeks, she gets her first check, so I'll be out of the controlling business anyway.
That's tough Zee. I want to say the same thing sometimes. I asked my W today if she planned on paying back the money she took from the kids education funds. She looked at me with defiance, and said yes, but it was kind of unfair that she had to pay for her own expenses since January (all her expenses were covered, that money was used and is used to fund her A activities)
I think it's the right call to not say anything right now. Give her your letter, go on vacation, and have a smashing time
I left W the "something's gotta give" letter last Friday and left with kids on vacation.
Hadn't heard from W until today (although she has texted and talked to kids)
This morning she calls me and asks for new cell phone. (there's a sale on) She said I would have to order it, since I took away her account privileges. (damned straight I did)
I said I'd look at it.
She called back this afternoon, asking if I'd ordered it. I said no, what's the rush? After complaining about how she couldn't see her phone anymore and blah, blah, blah, she asked if there was a problem with me ordering it.
(is she kidding? I don't give a crap about the sale, and I'm not spending a cent on a new phone for her right now. The gravy train has ground to a halt. I still find her sense of entitlement extremely brazen.)
I calmly said "Yes dear, there are some problems." at which point she hung up on me.
Meanwhile, the kids and I are having a great time. Been to some touristy things they hadn't seen before, we've done a whole lot of swimming and boating, and strawberry picking, and blueberry picking. It's going to rain tomorrow, so that will be time to make pies. (I love baking)
I was afraid that they might mope around and miss their mom, but if they have, they sure aren't showing it. (relief!)
W calling was kind of a downer today. I kind of had her off my mind, enjoying kids and friends and relatives. Her call has had me pacing and racing all day.
Today I had two friends who have known both W and me for over 20 years tell me that I should D her. They are very pro-M and have been following the sitch, talking to both of us. They think she's totally lost it and I should get the kids into a better sitch. Not something I'd expected them to say. Lots of advice.
I know it's hard, but try to enjoy this time with the kids, Zew. As the parent of four who are now 27, 24, 21 and 17, I can tell you you only get so many of these little slices in your life.
Trust me, wayward wife and all of the associated problems and challenges will be there when you get back.
Starsky
So one of these two friends ^^^^^ talked to W last night, then IM'd me this morning.
Friend says W is messed up. (!)
W went to financial adviser trying to figure out her options. W read friend the letter I sent her. W is hung up on the fact that nowhere in the letter did I say ILY. W went on to friend about how I am hiding income and moving assets out of the country. W is looking for any excuse to end the M.
Friend said "it's not encouraging, but W's still confused about what to do."
...
Meanwhile, it is not raining today after all, so we're going kayaking now. Starsky is of course, right about enjoying the bits while you can.
It was said to me during my sitch that waywards instantly lose about 20 I.Q. points the minute they start having their affair.
Seems about right.
W went on to friend about how I am hiding income and moving assets out of the country.
You're wife
does know that if you two begin divorce proceedings, you're both going to have to submit detailed financial disclosures, under threat of perjury . . .
right?
Yes, she knows. Her L told her so. Does she know what it means? Assuredly not.
And as I said to mutual friend who IM'd today... "when she finds out I didn't hide assets and she and her idiot friends pissed away her M because of that, what does she say? Whoops?"
But I know what will happen. We aren't broke by any means. But we have been overspending for years, and that trend will make us go broke. I told her we had to stop spending more than we earned. I put us on a cashflow neutral budget. At this point, she will see any assets as proof that I was lying - "you said we were broke and we aren't broke."
I think the 20 IQ point loss is generous.
D13 just caught a fish on her second cast. Not dinner. And then a whole round of apologies to the poor little fish. Kids these days... no sense of where food comes from...
LMAO!!!!
Your note just reminded me, my wife told HER EGF (Enabling Girl Friend) that "Choc (me) is hiding money, I just know it!"
I wasn't, of course.
Poow widdle fishie.
So, the common friend ^^^^ who talked to W the other day and them IM'd me some details phoned me today to talk some more.
Friend says W is all over the map - talking divorce, but not sure of anything.
But at least it's clear now that W is starting to think about the logistics of D.
Again W brought up that she didn't think I'd go back to MC. Friend referred her back to the part in my letter where I said "there was lots of help available to us". Friend assured her that MC is just one kind of help that I was talking about.
Then W wonders about health insurance for herself.
Then she talks about selling house and buying herself one in same school district.
Then she says "Ideal situation would be Zew and I legally separate, but live together in an open marriage, in current house, and kids are home with both parents."
Ya. Clearly the "ideal" situation. This is why I don't believe in S at all, at all.
W is still on about hiding money, and is afraid that I will never change the parent/child relationship we have over finances. This is a tough one. She has rightly identified our financial relationship. It was never intentional, as I've said before, but over the years, her CC's and irresponsible spending have kind of cemented that relationship. I still think that could be fixed, but it will take trust, and I know I will never give her joint control of all assets.
Friend is encouraging me to go over full financials with W, not because she'll understand it, but because it will take it off the table, and since they'll come out in filing anyway, why not.
It irks me to no end that W even makes the accusation, and I would really rather only go over finances with her once she's back in the M. Otherwise, my finances just become more fodder for the posse's grist mill, and the next round of conspiracy theories. And if I were to clear this up, what would the next roadblock be? Can something as simple as finances, which she brings up in every conversation with everyone really be her deal breaker? I can't believe that, but I'm not my W.
Then friend asked me point blank - "Zew, even if W wants to come back, how would you ever trust her?" And this person was my W's bff for about 10 years, before we moved to different cities. And I now wonder if my only motivation for even trying is purely the kids. I told friend, I really wasn't interested if W only wanted to "try", at this point, I want to see real commitment. You know, Yoda - "Do, or do not. There is no try." That may be asking more than she'll ever have to give.
And then W IM'd me again tonight to buy her cell phone upgrade. She's fuming that I won't order it, and won't give her access to the account so she can do it. I'm proving her "controlling" accusation. And then I see her posting pictures on FB of she and posse going for horse drawn taxi rides in the city today, wondering who is paying for that, and not feeling bad at all about controlling. She has money. I just don't want to buy another thing until we have a "chat" about where we stand when I get back.
The cell renewal is still bugging me.
By upgrading, I'd be making a 2 year commitment to pay for her cell phone, or face early termination fees.
Seems W and I made a lifetime commitment once, she's not holding up to well on that contract, and I'll face huge early termination fees.
I'm not big on contracts with early termination fees right now, given that I can't see past next week.
Perfectly understandable. I wouldn't do it either. Throw in the fact that she uses the phone to actively pursue other men (plural) and you're well into. "NO WAY IN HELL" territory.
oh yeah, that too!
Friend and I had some good laughs a couple of times on the phone call -- it is so tragically comical.
Like gee, if you're going to f a client then dump him, make sure you get the commission first, then dump him. Duh! Sense of timing? hello?
How I love vacation. One week left.
Made a pie with the last of the strawberries we picked last week.
Went blueberry picking with my father today. When nobody else wants to go, we can always count on each other to head into the bush to pick.
After that, I sat and had a single malt with him.
Gotta show the kids how all this hanging out with your parents as adults is cool.
Damn. Zen broken. Need some input here.
W and I haven't spoken much in months, certainly not about M or R. I gave her the "not going to live in an open marriage, we have decisions to make" letter last week before leaving on vacation.
She called a few days ago all hot and bothered to upgrade her cell phone, demanding that I order it immediately, or give her access to the account so she could order it.
I see it as just more demanding, milking Zew for one more thing as she carries on with OM and plans for D. I don't want to renew a 2 year contract in my name to provide her a cell phone when she/I could file for D within weeks.
And when she asked if there was a problem with me ordering the phone, I said, yes, there are a few problems, and she hung up on me.
Fast forward to now. She just sent this email: (shortened)
Zew,
I need a new cell phone as my phone is acting crazy. [...etc...]
I can't run my business this way, so either get me the phone I want or put me back on the account so I can take care of this matter myself.
You say you don't control me and/or you want to work on things but this is a form of control and it is clear to me that you don't want to work on things... only on your terms.
This is the way our marriage has always been on YOUR TERMS and what you want not what I want or need! I sent you a text on Saturday and I had no response to it.
W
Her email reeks of the sophomoric posse. Demanding, isn't it. I
knew they would come back and call this controlling.
My proposed response:
W,
Just as you cannot run your business without a phone, we cannot have a successful marriage, either financially or emotionally, without commitment.
You are demanding that I renew a multi-year contract in my name to provide you with a cell phone. Without any commitment from you to our marriage, I have no reason to believe that I will meet the two year contract term and I will be subject to early termination fees.
When we started to discuss this a few days ago, you hung up on me. If you want to have a conversation with me, and you want me to respond to your texts, I expect to be treated respectfully.
This isn't a matter of control; it's uncertainty. The reality of our situation is that decisions that used to be simple in a long term committed relationship no longer make sense.
My position regarding our marriage has not changed. If you commit to working with me seriously, honestly and exclusively, I have committed to you that I will put everything on the table so that we can start fresh and find solutions that satisfy both of us.
Z
Comments?
You seem so condescending to me both in your draft and in the way you speak about her.
interesting comment - care to elaborate?
(I can certainly think of a few reasons why)
You speak to her and about her like she's a child. IMO, that has no place in a meaningful romantic relationship. Regardless of what she's done, you don't have any right to act like her parent and it's certainly not bringing you two closer.
You speak to her and about her like she's a child. IMO, that has no place in a meaningful romantic relationship. Regardless of what she's done, you don't have any right to act like her parent and it's certainly not bringing you two closer.
I don't disagree.
At the same time, W continues to act irresponsibly, and she and her two friends continue to conspire against me to see what they can get me to pay for while W investigates D. They're playing a childish game, and I'm done being played.
No doubt that I need to stay above it. The challenge is how to be the responsible one, maintain my boundaries, and not come off as condescending.
You are welcome to take a crack at the response.
My proposed response:
W,
Just as you cannot run your business without a phone, we cannot have a successful marriage, either financially or emotionally, without commitment.
You are demanding that I asking me to renew a multi-year contract in my name to provide you with a cell phone. Without any commitment from you to our marriage, I have no reason to believe that I will meet the two year contract term and I will be subject to early termination fees.
When we started to discuss this a few days ago, you hung up on me. If you want to have a conversation with me, and you want me to respond to your texts, I expect to be treated respectfully. --------> move this to make it the OPENING paragraph.
This isn't a matter of control; it's uncertainty. The reality of our situation is that some decisions that used to be simple in a long term committed relationship may no longer make sense for me.
My position regarding our marriage has not changed. If you commit to working with me seriously, honestly and exclusively, I have committed to you that I will put everything on the table so that we can start fresh and find solutions that satisfy both of us.
Z
Comments?
Round 2:
W,
When we started to discuss this a few days ago, you hung up on me. If you want to have a conversation with me, and you want me to respond to your texts, I expect to be treated respectfully.
You are asking me to renew a multi-year contract in my name to provide you with a cell phone. Without any commitment from you to our marriage, I have no reason to believe that I will meet the two year contract term and I will be subject to early termination fees.
This isn't a matter of control; it's uncertainty. The reality of our situation is that some decisions that used to be simple in a long term committed relationship may no longer make sense for me.
Z
Thanks, Starsky. Concise, less preachy, and doesn't repeat things I've already said.
Would it be worth asking her if she has any other ideas that might work for both of you? (Validate her concern about her need for a phone. ..while trying to problem solve collaboratively). Or, offering her an alternative solution that might work for you as well? Maybe she Is panicked and can't see any other solutions? Can you show her that you can stay calm and offer a possible solution in a collaborative (not condescending) way?
And just a personal note, the way my H would phrase things was always a trigger for me...he would say, "why don't you..." in a (to me) demanding way, which for some reason drove me nuts. It's a small thing, but saying "what if you..." or "is it possible for you to..." would have sounded better to me.
and she can talk about it with her therapist today.
Claire,
I don't know that I want to go there. I mean, yes, generally I want to be collaboratively solving problems associated with our M.
This is the cell phone she uses to constantly text OM in front of me and kids. And to text with the conspiring girlfriends.
She claimed this is a phone required to run her business. If that's the case, shouldn't her business pay for the phone? And if she can't afford business expenses, isn't that what business loans are for?
There's also wired phone on her desk that works perfectly well. Granted, she's not home all the time, but where is she all the time?
And she gets her first commission check next week. So couldn't she be buying her own business phone with her own business proceeds?
Or maybe the money spent at the tanning spa, etc. would be better spent on her business.
See, she's played me so much that I have a hard time seeing this as anything other than just another expense she tries to drop on me before she bails. She relies on the Bank of Zew to fix everything.
I have to stop being the guy that fixes everything. She calls it paternalistic and resents it, while at the same time depending on it. It's a lose-lose for me.
Claire,
I don't know that I want to go there. I mean, yes, generally I want to be collaboratively solving problems associated with our M.
This is the cell phone she uses to constantly text OM in front of me and kids. And to text with the conspiring girlfriends.
She claimed this is a phone required to run her business. If that's the case, shouldn't her business pay for the phone? And if she can't afford business expenses, isn't that what business loans are for?
There's also wired phone on her desk that works perfectly well. Granted, she's not home all the time, but where is she all the time?
And she gets her first commission check next week. So couldn't she be buying her own business phone with her own business proceeds?
Or maybe the money spent at the tanning spa, etc. would be better spent on her business.
See, she's played me so much that I have a hard time seeing this as anything other than just another expense she tries to drop on me before she bails. She relies on the Bank of Zew to fix everything.
I have to stop being the guy that fixes everything. She calls it paternalistic and resents it, while at the same time depending on it. It's a lose-lose for me.
Agree. If/when you guys ever get to the reconciliation phase, there are things we can help you with to better work collaboratively with your wife. Trying to do so on the cellphone she uses to conduct her affair, at THIS stage, wouldn't be the best time.
Nothing wrong with an airy "Hey, love to help you out if you can see another way, but I'm just not willing to take on that long-term commitment right now, considering where things are with our marriage" thing. But I wouldn't waffle on the underlying position if I were you.
Starsky
See, she's played me so much that I have a hard time seeing this as anything other than just another expense she tries to drop on me before she bails. She relies on the Bank of Zew to fix everything.
I have to stop being the guy that fixes everything. She calls it paternalistic and resents it, while at the same time depending on it. It's a lose-lose for me.
Time for someone to put on her BGPs, methinks.
Starsky
I think, fwiw, you're spot on, zew.
Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate the quick feedback.
I added one line to the end -
If you can see another way, I'll see if I can help out. It would be wise to continue to take advantage of the discount I get.
I'll let you know how the consortium responds.
Train, if you ever have too much time on your hands, my thread is a guaranteed thriller, full of the unexpected.
Count me in!!!
Hmmm. A couple of calls from W to EZ Pass.
She may be retaliating by disabling my EZ Pass, which bills to her CC, which I pay monthly.
Pure speculation on my part. I'll have to keep an eye on that next time I drive up to a toll booth.
Oy.
Kids and I got home from vacation late last night.
Kids and I had a great time, they were already talking about things to do next year. I'm so glad we went. Not once did they mention missing mom. It just did our relationships with each other a lot of good.
W was already asleep with sleeping pill, so never heard us unloading everything.
I have no idea where W's head is.
She has just been without her kids for 2 and a half weeks for the first time ever.
There are no phone/text logs for OM for last 12 days.
She had an old friend of ours, (married woman), come and stay the weekend with her.
I was hoping there was an off chance there that she was clearing her head.
Unfortunately I see a couple of very long calls to a new guy - she's known him for a while, but of course, everything looks suspicious to me.
W came down this morning just before I left, said hello and asked how I liked the new curtains she put up in the family room. This is the first we've spoken since the cell phone email exchange. I had to leave for work.
New curtains? What is she thinking? I'm prepared to file for D and put the house up for sale, and she's buying curtains? Just more "cheer-me-up" shopping?
So in the letter I left her before vacation, I said we each had some big decisions to make, and I asked her to share her thoughts. Tonight, I'm going to ask her for those thoughts. I don't plan on saying a thing, just listening. Then I'll tell her that I'll have to think about that.
So in the letter I left her before vacation, I said we each had some big decisions to make, and I asked her to share her thoughts. Tonight, I'm going to ask her for those thoughts. I don't plan on saying a thing, just listening. Then I'll tell her that I'll have to think about that.
That sounds like a good plan, Zew. I'll be anxious to hear your report later about what she says!
I'm really glad you had such a great time with your kids. I will bet that they remember that little trip their entire lives.
Starsky
Talked to W. Asked if she had questions about my position. She was nothing but sarcasm, about how sweet it was.
She threw it all back at me as more of "my way or the highway"
I asked her what her position was. She didn't know. She is angry about me and past. She won't give it up.
Any time she dragged in the past, I owned it, then said let's focus on now and future.
W kept denying all A's; said she's not seeing anyone.
Asked whether I'd rescheduled MC, accused me of not doing it because I didn't want to R. I said it was a phone call away, as soon as she told me she wanted to move forward. Told her again I would rather spend money on therapy than lawyers.
Over and over, she told me how I felt, made me out to be a monster. Told me how good I had it, and how hard she tried. Again, I would pull back to present and say Yes, I own that, but what do we do now?
Anger, anger, anger.
So, I thanked her for her time, told her I had a good idea what her position was. Then I told her to take the curtains back, and not to spend any money on house.
So, it's 9 or 10 months in, and she's still in total denial.
Not good, obviously.
I wouldn't bring it up any more, Zew. You asked for her intentions, and at this point you need to treat "I don't know" as "I'm not going to." Her current (wayward) state is the default position you need to go by.
I'm sorry.
Starsky
Yes, unfortunately it sounded like BD all over again. She has made no personal progress in a year of individual therapy. (that I can see.)
Still takes no responsibility whatsoever for any of this, still can't let go of the past. I've had a few people tell me they dread her calls now, and one who just ignores them, because they are just so far out of reality.
She's still on about bank statements, and fuming about her cell phone, claiming some guy at the phone store said it was ok if I renewed the contract. (!)
Anyway, enough. I'll soon be 54. I would like to have a relationship with an adult, not a 16 year old and her game-playing friends.
I stopped by town hall this morning to get a certified copy of my marriage certificate.
She's still in full-blown ENTITLEMENT mode.
What's that Bible verse (somewhere in Proverbs, I believe) about "it is better to leave in a corner of the roof, than with a quarrelsome woman?"
Life is too short, man. I'm as pro-marriage as anyone, but she is just NOWHERE CLOSE to realizing -- much less WORKING on -- her role in this.
Starsky
Nothing to add; just wanted to pitch in a pat on the back, zew.
I know this means nothing to you right now, but happiness is around the corner for you. I feel that. Can't say the same for your W, however.
Hello zew,
This is my first post; I read your whole thread. It appears that your W and mine are clones; many similarities. I wish I could give you advice but you appear to be further along than I am in dealing with your stay-at-home WAW. Good luck, and I hope that your outcome will be a positive one!
Thanks, Train. It does mean something to me.
I'll journal some stuff here, just because. It means nothing, or something, or nothing. Just want to record it.
- Since I came back from vacation, W has been sleeping in guest room. This really makes no difference to me anymore, but it does remind me of the whole "the marital bed goes with the people in the marriage" fiasco. If that separation helps her, I'm all for it.
- I noticed she took our wedding pictures off the dresser while we were on vacation. There was still a dual frame with his/her baby pictures. If she's going to get all silly with pictures, I don't want to lose mine, so I quietly removed my baby picture last weekend. Later that day, the whole frame was gone. No words on any of this.
- Our conversation Wednesday night ended with "You know my position, and I now have a good idea of your position. Take back the new curtains, and don't spend any money on the house." Something might have sunk in; maybe, maybe not. Panic, or relief? W did go for an unscheduled therapy session the next day.
- W started on a different AD last week, stronger with more side effects.
- W made dinner Saturday night. It's been a while.
- W made brunch Sunday morning. I've been doing weekend brunch for years.
- W stayed home each night this weekend. No running with the posse.
- No suspicious texts/calls since that conversation. Just a few long calls to girlfriends. Even calls to posse have tapered off. [or gone underground]
- Something is happening with W -- fake, real or fear, who knows? She's still not talking. When I come home and ask her how she is, I get a one word response.
- I feel different. Kind of relieved, but still very troubled about impact of D to kids. I sleep better, but still wake up in the middle of the night. Can't really explain it - borderline acceptance I guess. I really can't hold this together if W doesn't want it. And if she does decide she wants M, she'll have at least 6 months of D processing time to convince me something could work. I'm glad I wrote that position letter. It's still a standing offer to R. W has choices, free of my control. Now she has to decide what she believes: Her "You're incapable of loving me." or my "I've stood by you through multiple A's. You've done nothing this year but test how much I love you, and I'm still here offering R."
That has to be confusing. Confuses the heck out of me.
- I have all paperwork done and financials ready. L called yesterday to ask if he could put me off filing for a week - a scheduling thing. I'm patient, I'll wait. But seriously, a coincidental one week delay just as I think I see W changing? Some higher power is toying with me.
What is going on with W, is it in any way real and positive, just testing, or maybe she knows she has to get her shi* together to make it on her own? It appears that she is stopping some of the destructive behavior. Does any fog clear? I know that W changing behavior in no way implies anything with respect to me. I can hear Bond yelling "Mindreading!"
We'll see what the rest of the week brings.
Hmmmmm. It could be sincere second thoughts she's having, or it could merely be a "St. Mrszew" period (I'll have to find you the notes from my sitch, when the fetching Mrs. Starsky was going thru her "St. Sally" period. Exact same behavior, right down to the making of breakfast!)
And no, never discount The Big Guy having His hand on the timing of the whole thing. I prayed throughout my sitch, including just before instructing my atty to have her served with the divorce papers. A "Lord, if this is NOT what I'm supposed to do here, I pray that you'll clearly show me, TODAY" type of prayer. As my sitch turned out, my wife needed that D jolt to wake her up as to what she was about to throw away, but maybe your wife is warming, who knows.
At some point, you're going to have to pull the trigger though. I pray that she turns away from what she's doing, I really do!
Starsky
As for St. MrsZew, I just don't know.
+ It would appear that she has stopped contact with OM (plural).
- I wouldn't say that she is warming.
- She is still sleeping in the guest room.
- Still spending over an hour a day on the phone with posse.
- She leaves the room (or the house) to take any phone call.
+ She has started talking to her mother and sister again.
She wants a notebook for her business. Yesterday, she told me they were available at X and Y, so I could pick where I wanted to buy it for her. All I heard was another entitled demand for something that should be a business expense, not a family expense, and that there was option Z, not buying it for her at all.
In summary, she may be doing some things that are good for her in the long run, but she still isn't thinking anything about an R with Zew. And that's where she was a few months ago. She wanted to clean up her act in order to be able to survive without me -- not to save her M or family, but to be independent of me. Together, but not dependent, doesn't seem to be in the plan.
Now the question of the day.
So I'll file for D. My position hasn't changed; I prefer R to D, but by filing, I'm taking open M off the table.
I realize I'm also forcing a choice, but I'm ok with that now. I need that clarity in my life.
So, do I:
a) talk to W the day before filing, to see if anything has changed before throwing the grenade. Let her know what's coming.
b) after filing, but before being served, tell w that I prefer R to D, but have filed to take open M off the table
c) I've restated my position a million times. say nothing and let the shock of the process server have full effect. If she wants to save any part of this, she'll figure it out. If she doesn't, move on Zew, move on.
d) ?
yesterday's fortune cookie:
"Something special will happen at home soon"
or, if she's really given up OM, I could just STFU and see what happens in the next x days...
Zew - I've been following your thread, I was in just about the same position as you about 4 years ago. D was final about 3 years ago and I am so much happier than I ever was in the M. This is just me but after everything she has done I would tell you to go for C, she needs to feel the weight of her decisions and finally see that they have consequences. The next OM is right around the corner, if she runs into someone at the bar tonight she is attracted to what do you think her actions would be? Take control of your life for you and your kids.
Zee,
Your completely prepared for the outcome, either way. I admire how calmly you have positioned everything, and how aware you are of where things are. Ironic in the face of everything with respect to your W actions
You've waited this long, why not give it a bit more time. If R is ultimately what you would prefer, I don't think another month will hurt you, although I'm sure you know the effect of this time on your D
Your organized and prepared and you know your end goal. Follow this tunnel for a bit and see where it ends up. If you have to file, you do.
Good Luck, and keep your head up.
Hijack...with a plate full of assorted cupcakes for ya, Zew.
Dev, could you please start a thread soon so I can post my comments to the latest info from today. Thanks much!
I think that the more honorable approach is to tell her beforehand. Don't sandbag her or blind side her. IMO, that's just the right thing to do regardless.
Thanks, Dev.
Funny, if the A's were ongoing, I'd file in a minute. But they look to be over. Could be she's just gone underground or is trying to throw me off.
Regarding R. I don't know what's even possible. Can't tell without input from the other side, can we. I know I've been reading up on postnup agreements.
Regarding D. I just read your thread (it's locked, BTW).
W went out the other night at 6:30 for a "business meeting". I believe the meeting was with a woman.
As W left, my D looked at me and said "Who has a business meeting at 6:30?" I said nothing. I won't trash W, nor will I cover for her. I just went over to D and gave her a big long hug. When W came home at 10:15, D said "Mom's home from her 'business meeting'".
I've noticed eye rolls from D when W has gone out in the evening "with her friends".
I don't think D is missing anything.
We enjoy watching movies together in the evenings, though.
I agree, unbidden. I have and will continue through this honorably.
And if I want to keep that road paved, I can't give her any reasons.
Hey Zew,
It does seem like you are as prepared as you can be for this.
I admire how you are handling it.
Hang in there, I am praying for a positive outcome for you and your WAW.
Zee,
Stealing a line from you awhile back, I think it's time to tell us, "what's going on back at the Zew?"
Hope all is ok and you are plugging away.
Dev
Thanks for checking in, Dev.
W will receive a letter from L next week advising that he has been retained to dissolve M, and giving her a few weeks to respond if she wants to do a collaborative D. If not, I will litigate a contested D, or she will file first, or...
So, it will be D or R, but I'm taking open M off the table. I have no idea how W will react, but I don't believe it will be with any kind words in my direction. I suspect that this will be just one more way that I'm "controlling her."
BTW, I believe W is no longer seeing OM, but it seems she is still convinced she is better off without me, and I am the root of all her problems. There is no sign of any responsibility on her part either for the demise of M, or for her serial infidelity. I feel sorry for W. I think she really needs help, but it's her life, she's got to live it as she sees best. So regardless of how I feel about the wisdom of her decisions, I have no input. If this is the "new W", I really want no part of her; she seems to have abandoned all virtue. (but I guess that's subjective, isn't it.) She is also very intent on blaming me for everything, forever. That grudge is going to be a big load to carry. She is firmly anchored to the past.
I'm not giving this much hope, but I am proceeding in the most civil way possible, not ruling anything out. I am so over this now, that I believe I will be able to get through this without any anger. My focus is on forgiveness and getting something stable in place as soon as possible for me and kids (where everything isn't my fault). I'm future bound.
Part of me wants this over yesterday. I've been looking at houses for sale, and there's one that's just come open that looks just perfect for me and my hobbies. Price is right, needs some reno (perfect if I'm single with time on my hands) but I'm sure it will sell before I'm able to buy.
Zew.
Hey Zew,
Wow. You've got this all figured out as I expected. Good job. I truly think you are moving forward and have an idea and a plan. Too bad if your W misses out on this Z version.
I'm sure you'll have some interesting news in the next week or two. Good luck whichever way the cookie crumbles.
Cheers,
Dev
Red letter days...
It's about a year, give or take a few weeks, from when W's EA started. There have been at least 3 PA's since.
Yesterday morning I took W aside to say that since she had no interest in working on R, and since I would not stand for an open M, that left few options. Told her I would have my L start dissolution and that she would hear from him soon. Told her it was the very last thing I wanted to do.
She said it was all my fault and that she was "done" a year ago. I said anything was possible if we both wanted it, and we all have our own choices to make and left it at that.
So there, I gave her a heads-up of what was to come - no blindsiding.
I called L and told him to send the letter to W. I felt an enormous weight lifted from my shoulders. I had drawn my "no open M" line in the sand a couple of months ago. I meant it.
Today I received my copy of L's letter to W, so presumably W will get her copy in the mail today.
Sad that it's come to this, but happy to know that I'm a just a few months away from something different than this daily drama.
Of course, I have no idea what will happen next. W is so, so, so out of character that anything could happen. Or this may be who she now is. Doesn't really matter. I'll deal with it all with dignity, and I think, maybe naïvely, that anything is better than what's going on now.
W has no remorse, takes no responsibility at all; she seems very hurt and resentful, can't get past it, and her response is retaliation. After a year of IC, she doesn't seem to have learned anything about resentment, forgiveness or how to let go and move forward. I suspect her C is more the pro-D "you deserve happiness" type. W needs co-dependency help. (imho) In spite of my 180's, which she's noticed, she is still unwilling/unready to do anything but hurt me.
W has accused me of being controlling.
Was it controlling of me to force this decision on W? No - she can still do what she's doing, she just can't do it to me.
Right now, my future is utter chaos, D is all but certain. I in no way feel in control of anything. However, my engine's purring, and I have a full tank of gas.
Zew, I'll tell you the same thing I told my own daughter when she broke up with her ex:
"I respect you for fighting to try to make it work, and now I respect you for knowing that you had to walk away."
You've shown much strength, honor and level-headed planning throughout your ordeal, and I THINK I've been with you from the beginning? Most aren't able to do that, and one of my regrets is that those following along won't (yet?) get the lesson of the right way to do things.
It's just that there aren't any guarantees, as you know, and all we can each do is what gives us the BEST CHANCE at saving our marriage. At the end of the day (end of the year?), the choice is -- ultimately -- our wayward spouse's to make.
Much respect,
Starsky
Proud of you Zew- not only for sticking to your stance and taking action that I think is necessary (although I'm sure not easy to do), but also sounds like you're feeling good about yourself.
Hang in there- you never know what the future holds!
You are the MAN, zew. Seriously.
You are a man only a foolish woman would leave.
She's foolish.
My hat is off to you, bro.
You've shown much strength, honor and level-headed planning throughout your ordeal, and I THINK I've been with you from the beginning? Most aren't able to do that, and one of my regrets is that those following along won't (yet?) get the lesson of the right way to do things.
Thank you, sir. You have no idea how much I appreciate your being here for support. May God bless you.
As for doing things the right way, there are some things I could have done differently. I could have been more firm sooner, but I needed the time to square things with myself, and to re-establish my R with my D13, and assure that I would have my vacation time with kids. Anyway, I'm not the type for regrets, so I'll say I did things in the way that was right for me.
I do agree with your philosophy that hard boundaries need to be established early. I think many of us have trouble with that because we've never been in a situation where what we thought were inalienable boundaries are so violated by someone so trusted. If I had a critique of the help we give people on this board, it's that we don't get people to understand the whole control vs boundary thing more quickly, in a way that is operable.
It's just that there aren't any guarantees, as you know, and all we can each do is what gives us the BEST CHANCE at saving our marriage. At the end of the day (end of the year?), the choice is -- ultimately -- our wayward spouse's to make.
Very true, and good to learn to accept early. And this has been the most frustrating part for me. I don't believe anything is ever broken, just in need of repair. And being the mechanically minded son of a father born into a large depression era family, I know you can
always fix something before you throw it away. I guess this is where the age difference with my W comes into play - my toys were made of metal and could be fixed; her toys were made of plastic and you threw them away.
The whole "I'm done and won't try" attitude is just a non sequitur for me. In my mind, if I signed up for something, and I'm not dead, then I'm not done. The hardest lesson for me has been to learn that M is a joint venture, and my W does not have that same core 'never say die' value, and therefore there is a point at which I have to accept that I am on a fool's errand.
Thanks - work in progress. The lumber truck will be over at your place shortly with a fresh supply of 2x4's.
You are a man only a foolish woman would leave.
She's foolish.
Well I'd like to think I am; and certainly better than a year ago. Or maybe we just truly can't meet each other's needs. However, after 18 years and two kids, I just don't buy that. Let's go with She's foolish.
I think she's cheating herself and the kids out of a wide open, secure future with someone who actually cares. But I'm biased.
Or she's sick; in need of help. I truly believe she is being held back by a few friends and her IC, and she's firmly locked into victim mode. D is her answer. She feels entitled to something, at any cost, and several guys later she hasn't found it. There's just no feedback loop. People ask me if I can't get her to a doctor. Ya can't get nobody to do nuttin - no time, no how.
I'm truly thankful that I know I will never find myself at that level of depression. I have the self confidence to evaluate, decide, act then adjust. repeat. Sinatra singing "That's Life".
Anyway, this is just a mid-story plot twist. It's way too soon for the epilogue or post-mortem just yet. There's a whole lot of mundane reality coming up.
Man, what a great, great post that was. One for my personal archives. Insightful (the metal and plastic toys thing was pure genius), well-written and funny.
Standing O, man. Standing O.
Starsky
Agree.
I just love this, zew.
That's awesome stuff Zew. I felt like you were reading my mind as I have those exact same feelings on every point you made, except I couldn't have put it so eloquently!
Hey Zew,
I was thinking about what you said about the circuitous path we take in this process. It's quite a journey for sure. Personal growth, character flaw realization, acceptance, forgiveness, goal setting, compassion, and perhaps most importantly, learning we can only control what we ourselves do. It's quite the journey, just wish I didn't have to go on it as a result of a possible D.
Hope you are well and your process is continuing.
All the best,
Dev
Anyway, this is just a mid-story plot twist. It's way too soon for the epilogue or post-mortem just yet. There's a whole lot of mundane reality coming up.
Yes, sir. It sure is. Your faith and stamina give me hope. Thank you for sharing.
Hey Zew, how about an update? You've been on my mind this morning; wondering how you're doing.
Please update us when you can, bro.
Starsky
I've been meaning to update, just haven't had much to say...
I had given W until end of Sept to say whether or not she wanted a collaborative law D. She took about a week longer, and she chose a litigator who doesn't practice collaborative law. When I asked why she did that, she responded that she wanted a D on her own terms. A bit of an oxymoron, that. It was clear that she picked this person purely on recommendation without understanding the options. Nothing gives you more input/control than collaborative, and less than litigated.
There was some initial sabre rattling about motions to have me removed from the house, that haven't yet materialized. Nonetheless, I keep a fully packed suitcase in the trunk of my car. (!)
My L and I have held off on a contested filing, to see if we can start negotiations for a joint filing, which would eliminate the 6 month waiting period. Should have a response by mid next week. Mindreading, but I doubt my W will want to proceed with a speedy D because she knows her financial reality. It's more likely that she will draw this out for as long as possible.
I believe W got in to see an actual psychiatrist this week. (anything would be better than her divorce-coaching T) W is trying to get her AD dosage raised, and I don't think her doctor wants to, hence the new doctor.
When she speaks to me, which is rarely, it is contemptuous. The more her choices box her in, the more angry she is with me. (anger is better than indifference?) No inkling of responsibility on her part; she holds me completely responsible. I don't stand for much of that anymore - I've told her quite bluntly that I call BS on that -- her actions are her responsibility, and cannot be pinned on me. I'm not piling stuff on her, just not letting her pile it on me.
SIL called me a few times -- she thinks W is on the verge of a nervous breakdown. Her family still hopes I stick through this. I've told SIL that I don't know what is even possible anymore; it's in God's hands. As patient, determined and forgiving as I might be, W has a very long scorecard and no sign of any of the personal tools it would take to work on anything. I told SIL I can't do it alone, and W is just not interested right now. SIL is really broken up by this, worried about the kids. I told her to call whenever she wanted; I don't mind talking.
I regressed a little emotionally last week. I share responsibility for her getting to this point, but I can't comprehend her unwillingness to get past this point. More precisely, her way to get past this point is through total destruction. I have a hard time letting that go easily without a blame me/blame her cycle, which I realize is futile, but I am getting better. It surely isn't linear.
I'm at the point where I really just want to move on. It's not so much what W has done to me or our family. Strangely (or not), I don't care what she's doing (most of the time). It's that I doubt that W has the skills to cope with a life that's different that whatever it is that she imagined it should be. And as we age and start confronting new issues, I want someone more reliable; someone willing to work as a team to get what they want. I freely admit I didn't always know how to do that either, but I know you can't get there by not trying.
I haven't totally written W off, but I'm getting a pretty good picture of what my needs are in a life partner and I don't see those in W now and each day I doubt whether she has the capacity to ever be that person, even if she were to try (which she isn't). It's down to shared history, which she doesn't want to remember. I think it's true that the LBS eventually catches up with the WAW in the not caring department.
So now it's getting on with the D, and seeing if she'll cooperate enough to minimize the timeline. That will come to a head this week.
I really want to sell our house, buy myself a fixer upper, and spend the next year therapeutically working with wood and tools, quietly, constructively, rebuilding some equity in a place that's my stress free home. Get myself back on a stable footing.
Meanwhile, I'm still exercising, and GALing (need to do more though).
The kids are good. We have not had "the talk". Don't know what to tell D13.
Have to figure out how to get them through this holiday season. I knew in my heart last Christmas that that was the last Christmas. I'm stockpiling PMA now to make this one as good as it can be.
I'm more appreciative of other people's time. I'm a little more aware of the people around me throughout the day as well. Widening the scope beyond the family is paying off.
Thanks for the prod, Starsky.
Happy trick or treating tonight, everyone.
Had a a couple of doubts in the beginning, but you have proven to be a strong man in the face of a cold hearted, wayward wife. After you weather this battle, you should be able to take on most anything. I only wish the very best for you. You deserve it. FWIW, you have renewed my hope in some men of our population. I was getting pretty discouraged. Maybe you can have hope for a better W in the future, too.
W's L just called my L to ask if we'd accept service via mail. So W has filed.
Now we have to wait for the mail to come to see what temporary orders W may have filed with this.
I'm glad she filed first. She gets to live with that, too.
I'm also relieved that the clock is now running.
Sandi, thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate your support, and I'm glad that I have renewed your hope in some men. I will come out of this ok, no doubt about it. The kids will be losers in this, but I'll protect them the best I can.
W, well, she's revealed a lot of negative traits in the last year, an inability to deal with anything in a rational way, and she's driven by resentment and vengeance, doesn't recognize that as her problem, and it's getting worse. I'm sure it's the makings for a treacherous D, but she's making it easy to walk away. I just hope to be clear of ground zero when she crashes.
-Zew
Thanks for the two updates, Zew. It'll be good to finally get this behind you, I'm sure. Anyone who's still as fueled with resentment and entitlement as your wife still seems to be, I'll be anxious to see what she's asking for in the D papers. Should be interesting.
You got this, bro.
Starsky
My L received D papers today.
There were NO motions for temporary orders; specifically nothing to have me vacate the marital home during the D.
Woohoo! I'm pretty darn happy right now!
That's good! My wife and I were actually pretty AMICABLE by the time the D papers starting flying around, and yet she had a motion in there for me to temporarily leave the marital home completely. I hit the roof and she claimed "I didn't know that was in there -- my lawyer must have just put that in there" and also "I think you're supposed to just come back with stuff and then we compromise and such."
Rrrrriiiiiight.
Starsky, I didn't realize you had gotten all the way into divorce territory. Somehow I had it in my mind that you'd gotten all that nailed a lot more quickly. That helps a lot to hear.
Thanks so much for all you do here. I read everything I see of yours, even when the situations don't seem to apply.
Hope you're soaking in your granddaughter for all she's worth and looking forward to the holidays. It can be hard for us kids to be away from the grandparents too.
Thanks for the really nice post, Maybell.
Yeah, I filed for the big D about 60 days into my wife's affair (Summer 2007), when she showed absolutely zero remorse and zero signs of turning back, despite having been exposed. Although her affair ended just a month later, it took us two years of fits-and-start piecing to put Humpty back together again, and as late as mid-2009 we went as far as meeting with a divorce mediator to determine who-got-which holidays, etc. I think that final look into the scary abyss -- and what both we and our kids would be missing -- was the final straw that made us stop holding the D gun to each other's heads and once and for all decide to REALLY work on our marriage.
One 25th wedding anniversary and two granddaughters later, we are stronger than ever, I'm happy to say.
But for awhile there, it was touch-and-go.
Starsky
Looking for some thoughts here...
There is a closing banquet tonight for my D13's activity. My W has been on the board for the last several years, and this is her last year. It's where W met OM1 and OM2. They may well be there. Other board members are aware of at least A1 (which I believe to be active again, but I've dropped that rope). So that whole activity has some pretty negative connotations for me, being a part of how my whole M has blown apart. W asked me to come home early to be with S9 since she has to leave early to the banquet. i.e. I'm not invited.
W and I are barely speaking, and when we do she always wants to flee. She cannot be in the same room with me. But this morning I took her aside and told her that she will get applause tonight and that she should revel in that because it is well deserved, and that she had done an excellent job for the kids. And that I couldn't go, but if I were able, I would have been front and center doing the standing O when they introduced her, because of her selfless dedication to that activity.
For the last year, she has taken any praise I give her as insincere.
This morning, she said thank you twice, but was quick to be on her way.
W just texted to say that if S and I want to come, she'll have tickets for us at the door.WTF, I'm sure she doesn't want me there.
If I go...
- could run into OMx. Not a problem for me, they are not men.
- get to show support for my D13.
- get to show support for my W. Blows holes in her "you don't support me" theory, doesn't it.
- don't have to make dinner for myself and son
although, the food will be mediocre at best.
Waddya think?
Tough call. Personally I think she's inviting you hoping that you DON'T go so she can then blame you for not being there, but I dunno. I would go with the "do what YOU want to do" standard advice.
I do think your yardstick should be what D13 would want however, not what you and your wife are going thru with the current "dance" you're on, that's for sure. Would your daughter be happy if you came?
Personally I think she's inviting you hoping that you DON'T go so she can then blame you for not being there.
I agree. It's hard not to figure that in.
Would your daughter be happy if you came?
She'll be at a different table with her team of course, so we won't be together. She did express to me disappointment that I haven't been to any of her events this year. (W has always left early for the whole day, leaving me with S, his activities, and getting D13 ready to join W later in the day for her stuff) So yes, I think I would score points with D for making it to the final hurrah. S will want to leave as soon as he can, or when his batteries run out, so we can bow out early.
Then I think you should go. But no expectations.
My only expectation is a D within 4 to 18 months.
Everything at this point is just curious experimentation to see if anything affects anything.
BTW, I'm going to let these threads die... New phase now. I shall return.