I think my thread filled up.
Previous thread is:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...116#Post2467116Went to MC yesterday. Seems last time W was there she's saying that she does love me. But in person with me she holds back.
She deleted some intimate pictures I had of her on my computer a month ago. I undeleted them. Last week I was away for the evening and she went on my computer again and found them. She was upset that I still have them after she had asked me to delete them months ago. I don't recall her asking me that but she insists and now she's upset that I didn't. She claims I agreed to delete them, but I don't recall saying I would. I remember her saying she didn't like me having them.
Anyway, I just deleted them yesterday and told her that I did. Maybe that'll help rebuilding trust. At least on my part.
I still have a suspicion that she's in contact with OM, but I think I just could be mind reading. MC seems to think it's over and things between us seem to be improving very gradually so maybe it is over. Still she won't show me her phone. Maybe there are other reason for that - not ready to give up control of her last piece of privacy. She said she is suffering burnout and needs a break. She says she has to find herself, and regain her identity. She says I still need to work on myself. She is still harbouring anger and is stuck with that anger, but she says she's ok to be stick because she realizes it's part of the process and she'll get unstuck in due course. In the meantime I'm still working on myself. Keeping fit and happy as I can be. Being calm, cool and collected at all times.
I hope asking her to stay the night with me at our home for our anniversary doesn't come off too much as pursuing. I only asked once. I won't ask again. We'll see.
Hey Peter,
I'm a bit confused. Because it seems like some of your posts disappeared. I thought I read you had a decent anniversary, and pursued your W a bit to stay over?
Just wanted to let you know, I know your anniversary was a tough time, but I've seen you post some great messages on detachment and affairs. You've got all the concepts and your doing great. We all backslide. It happens. The thing that will make the biggest difference is what isn't said. Your actions, and your recognizing and making changes with those.
The one piece of advice I would say, is really try to avoid basing your mood on her actions. It's very tough, but the solid strong Peter is going to be more attractive to your W than the controlling, moody Peter. Be the man you are, walk the walk and talk the talk. Keep up the good work.
Dev
Thanks Dev. I did continue my previous thread for a few more posts but it seems now to have locked up.
W is leaving for a vacation tomorrow for 9 days - visiting a common friend in Miami. Helped her pack tonight. Had a bite to eat together. I was cool, calm & collected. We hugged & kissed good-bye and I went home. She sent me a couple of texts before going to bed. Threw me a kiss (:*)
I'm going to stay detached while she's gone. I'm fairly confident that she's not meeting the OM there. Just the way she was talking about what she plans on doing for the next 9 days. Sleeping for the first 3 - she is sleep deprived and burnt out from 18 months of non-stop working without a break. Whatever she does makes no difference to me anyway at this point as long as she has a chance to clear her head. I'm just going to continue on with GAL and enjoying myself.
When she returns next Thursday, I'll be leaving the following morning on a 4 day hike with my 2 sons. She said she's planning on meeting us at the end of the hike on day 4. We'll see if she follows through.
Yeah I had a rough Saturday night. I'm better now. Spent a lot of time in bed on Sunday. I guess I just needed to get some stuff out of my system. I guess sometimes I spew too.
Hey Pete . Things seem to be shaping up for you for sure . Im envious for sure . I have no idea what my wife is up to when shes not home . Although i have suspicions that there is a new guy in the picture , and hes single . Backwhen things were good she told me about this guy she new from school and child hood. She said he moved back home from the west . He split up from his wife and his kids are grown . She said she was going to a funeral with him last night . I said you dont want to go with your husband and she said that i didnt know the woman very well but he did and so did she . I think theres something going on but who knows . i care less and less every day . As much pain as shes inflicted on me , its hard to keep on loving .
Some days i feel like telling her to leave and I never want to see her again , but then other days I ache just to be close to her . I still want her but more and more everyday its for the kids . Shes just doing too much damage too my soul . How can I ever forgive her for hurting me soooo much and continuing to do so . Have you had the same thoughts Pete? Im looking for light at the end of the tunnel . Its like i see a light and it gets brighter by times but then somebody adds another section to the tunnel and it gets dimmer again . At least the light is not totally gone although times itd been down to a flicker
Dawgy;
I went through 5 months of hell, Dec 2013 until May 2014. Total rollercoaster ride. At one point early Jan I had a meeting set up with a divorce lawyer. Then W came over and said she was going to end it with OM. So I cancelled my appt.I thought she ended it but then I followed her in March and she met with the OM for coffee and a few passionate embraces and kisses in his car outside the coffee shop. Her rendezvous went on for the month of March until I confronted him.
...Continued (sorry had to cut out suddenly)
So it took about 6 months for her to say the affair was over after I had discovered it in Dec - it had already been going on for at least 9 months without me knowing. Yeah it's been hard. I've had days when I considered suicide. I've had days when I just wanted to say f it and file for D. And then I've had days when she holds me and kisses me. She still is not in love with me again but that will take time. I have improved myself. I work out 3 times a week - never did that before. I have figured out the pattern of behaviour that we engaged in as a couple which lead to the breakdown of our M and now that I know it I can spot it every time and nip it in the bud - that's the essence of what you have to do Dawgy. Figure out what went wrong. It only took me 7 months to figure that out. It's a long hard road, but yes there is light at the end of the tunnel, although the tunnel sometimes is longer than it appears at first. Hang in there.
...Continued (sorry had to cut out suddenly)
So it took about 6 months for her to say the affair was over after I had discovered it in Dec - it had already been going on for at least 9 months without me knowing. Yeah it's been hard. I've had days when I considered suicide.
Are you still thinking of that often? Don't you have children too? Why didn't you kill yourself? I only ask b/c I want you to think of those same reasons every time it enters your mind.
After your first marriage ended, how did you handle that? What got you thru it?
I've had days when I just wanted to say f it and file for D. And then I've had days when she holds me and kisses me. She still is not in love with me again but that will take time. I have improved myself. I work out 3 times a week - never did that before.
Great...anything else? Anything specific?
I have figured out the pattern of behaviour that we engaged in as a couple which lead to the breakdown of our M and now that I know it I can spot it every time and nip it in the bud - '
Can you list some^^ of those behaviors that you are now spotting and working on or nipping in the bud?
that's the essence of what you have to do Dawgy. Figure out what went wrong.
And get the tools needed to prevent or correct it. Knowing what went wrong is the first piece and you'd be surprised how many identify a problem and then do not solve it...
there are so many resources available today it's crazy not to get professional help with it.
It only took me 7 months to figure that out. It's a long hard road, but yes there is light at the end of the tunnel, although the tunnel sometimes is longer than it appears at first. Hang in there.
Amen....but Peter, reading your thread i am struck by the amount of time you have devoted to not being so co-dependent and on detachment (well written)
yet you still seem to be that way. I mean, What has really substantially changed in you in that regard
since I still pick up a lot of obsessing going on?
Sorry but I do get that feeling that you are so needy of her and so focussed on her. What are your GAL activities and do any involve meeting new people?
They need to. Working out is taking care of yourself but it's not getting out of your comfort zone or meeting new people who do NOT know your situation.
For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. BTW, I had 3 kids including a baby (so you know I don't want to hear about how 'busy' you are, or 'too busy' to GAL).
Truly, Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia and GAL, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w. Plus it'll help you detach.
As much as you wrote about detachment you didn't say a lot about HOW to do it.
IMO, you cannot detach without GAL. And you cannot get healthy or heal, without detaching...so first things first...
Here are some of the GAL things...
I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.
I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.
I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.
I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.
I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding it.
Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)
I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. (Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly of their long LONG cold winters).
In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.
Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.
Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).
Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.
(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)
Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking
There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do NOT cost a lot.
Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.
Hi 25yearsmlc. Thanks for your questions.
No. I don't think of suicide anymore. That was only in the days after I discovered the A. Yes I have children and it would not set a good example. I didn't kill myself because I have too much going for me. Not to toot my own horn, but I have many redeeming qualities, talents and abilities.
My first marriage ended when my wife had an A and asked me to move out. Our relationship had gone downhill, we hadn't slept together for 10 years and it basically fizzled out. It wasn't the marriage either of us wanted anyway, however we did produce 3 amazing children, all gifted and talented.
As for self improvement I've become more aware of my emotional life, I've become more empathetic, seeing things from another's point of view, I've slowed way down - I used to be run-run-run frantic and so busy I'd fill any open time with activities. I was on half a dozen committees and boards of directors. My franticness would make my W anxious. My W always asked to spend time doing fun stuff, but I was so busy I rarely took her up on it. Now I have time to read and relax. I quit all my committees and boards.
My W & I run a retirement home - well that's her business, but I do help her a lot. I have my own business as well. But she's burnt out from working 18 month steady since we bought the place (although she did take time out to have an A - I guess that was her escape).
In our marriage, she would give in to my wishes all the time, because she wanted to please me, she didn't want to disappoint me. I ate it up. But she felt like she started losing her identity and then she started feeling resentful. She kept saying, "I just want my life back", but I didn't really understand what she meant my that. Now I know. She catered to me to the detriment of her own individuality.
Now if she does something for me because I ask but it's not exactly what she wants, I stop her and tell her not to do it. Only do it if she really wants to in her heart. Don't do it to please me or to not disappoint me. So I've caught her a couple of times in the last couple of weeks and I stopped her, saying that this is the pattern of behaviour that got us into this mess, and I won't let it continue. Still I need to keep hyper vigilant to make sure we don't engage in that pattern of behaviour.
Detachment: yes I'm having a very hard time with that. I've been going over my detachment manifesto with my IC and will continue in that thread with my IC later this coming week.
My W & I see each other almost every day. I love her dearly and she says she loves me. However she is very angry at me and can't seem to let go of that anger. It's preventing her from R. That makes me sad. It makes her sad too, but she's ok with being stuck - she says it's part of the process. So it's hard to detach when we spend so much time together. I think that's good, trying to fill the love bucket.
As for GAL activities, I was going to the jazz club every Sat night. I tried Tai Chi once - didn't really like it. I play in a rock band weekly. But I haven't really gone out and done something totally new for me. I like just staying home and reading. I'm a bit of a loner I guess, although I do really enjoy going out and meeting new people. I just haven't done it.
Thanks for the suggestions, 25yearsmlc. I do need to get out and do stuff, meet people. Even when I sit at home and read, it angers my W because she envious that I have time to read. Sort of stupid, because she has time to read to, but she can't seem to concentrate or focus enough to read - her mind is still scrambled. She does watch a lot of Netflix. That's her down time. So I guess I'll have to see what's going on in town and try out a few groups. I could volunteer - there's lots of demand for that.
I'm going on a 4 day hike with my sons this coming weekend. But right now I'm busy reshingling my roof - got another 3 or 4 days to get it done, while my W is in Florida taking a much needed vacation. She'll be back Thursday and then I'm gone on the hike Friday, so we'll touch base Thursday night. I haven't heard from her at all in 2 days. I'm not about to text her or call her. I'll wait for her to initiate contact with me.
It's been quiet from the W for 2 days now. I hope she's getting sleep - she was sleep deprived for a long time since she was working the night shifts at the retirement home.
So that's it from here.
Hi 25yearsmlc. Thanks for your questions.
No. I don't think of suicide anymore. That was only in the days after I discovered the A. Yes I have children and it would not set a good example. I didn't kill myself because I have too much going for me. Not to toot my own horn, but I have many redeeming qualities, talents and abilities.
Glad to hear this^^. 
(seriously)
My first marriage ended when my wife had an A and asked me to move out. Our relationship had gone downhill,
we hadn't slept together for 10 years and it basically fizzled out.
That's a LONG time to put up with a sexless (loveless??) marriage. 10 years...why do you think it fizzled out?
I mean, I know that no sex for a decade kills most marriages - but why did that happen in the first place? (I assume that is what you are referring to when you say it "fizzled out". )
So, any insights there? It wasn't the marriage either of us wanted
anyway, however we did produce 3 amazing children, all gifted and talented.
I assume ^^ that means the kids are happy and well adjusted? So, why would both of you have a marriage neither wanted? Why do YOU think?
Yes This does matter, btw. It's not "all irrelevant history" -- if there are any patterns or lessons Unlearned.As for self improvement I've become more aware of my emotional life, I've become more empathetic, seeing things from another's point of view, I've slowed way down - I used to be run-run-run frantic and so busy I'd fill any open time with activities.
How or in what way do you think you now show increased awareness of your emotional life (what does that mean exactly, anyhow?)
And how are you showing increased empathy? I ask you this for a reason Peter, but NOT b/c I'm doubting it. Specificity builds believability and consistency...so the more specific you are in your behavior changes, the more believable they are AND the more consistent you'll be with them. Make sense?
I was on half a dozen committees and boards of directors. My franticness would
make my W anxious. My W always asked to spend time doing fun stuff, but I was so busy I rarely took her up on it. Now I have time to read and relax. I quit all my committees and boards.
Not sure about how you know she "felt anxious" but I can easily see how she'd see a frantic "too busy to live" approach in you.
To be rejected/turned down when she offered you a fun thing to do, so you could keep an outside commitment, would make any wife unhappy.
I hope by quitting the extraneous activities (most married parents with 3, do NOT belong to half a dozen committees or boards).
I'm actually wondering about the whole :"father stays at home" thing now, for you. Maybe you ought to work (for money) so you can ease your wife's anxieties AND you won't be working much more than now, yet you'll be earning money.
In other words, that much unpaid work, with kids, is almost a sabotaging of your family's finances. Just think about that okay?
My W & I run a retirement home - well that's her business, but I do help her a lot. I have my own business as well
. But she's burnt out from working 18 month steady since we bought the place (although she did take time out to have an A - I guess that was her escape).
In our marriage, she would give in to my wishes all the time, because she wanted to please me, she didn't want to disappoint me.
When you read the "Five Love Languages", focus in on what happens when a woman goes on without her love tanks being filled for a very long time, which is clearly the case here....and think about how rushed you seem to be, given how 'long you have waited in limbo" compared to how long SHE endured having few or none of HER needs met. She stayed and stayed and worked and worked...
Hey, not trying to guilt you but giving you a heads up about the shoe on the other foot/. Since you are working on empathy and all....
I ate it up. But she felt like she started losing her identity and then
she started feeling resentful.
That^^ can't be a shock, right? I mean, that reaction is normal isn't it?
She kept saying, "I just want my life back", bu
t I didn't really understand what she meant my that.
So what did you do?
Now I know. She catered to me to the detriment of her own individuality.
I think (but am not positive) that any time someone "Caters" to another, it can't be something that lasts AND is positive. It can only be in a "gift" situation or illness/recovery because by it's very nature, it's unfair. It's one sided.
Now if she does something for me because I ask but it's not exactly what she wants, I stop her and tell her not to do it. Only do it if she really wants to in her heart. Don't do it to please me or to not disappoint me.
So I've caught her a couple of times in the last couple of weeks and I stopped her, saying that this is the pattern of behaviour that got us into this mess, and I won't let it continue. Still I need to keep hyper vigilant to make sure we don't engage in that pattern of behaviour.
Hey, no offense, okay? But this^^ implies that SHE must change HER behavior. The reality is You do as well. What are you doing to keep your needs in check? How are you working on NOT asking so much of her, so often?
How are you doing learning about what she does like and enjoy, so you know you are not again asking her to "endure" something she does not enjoy?Detachment: yes I'm having a very hard time with that. I've been going over my
detachment manifesto with my IC and will continue in that thread with my IC later this coming week.
My reaction to your "manifest" (well named, btw) was that it was way too complicated & long. Overly so.
I felt as if you were bludgeoning someone with that opinion, and I could not help but wonder how much of it was truly needed. Yes--yes it was well written, albeit repetitive. I liked almost all of it.
But altogether, it was too long for something that needs to come natural to us. Then, along with the other pages of material you printed, I had to wonder if this was just SO MUCH stuff in your head, and not enough sinking into your heart.
Any ideas?
My W & I see each other almost every day. I love her dearly and
she says she loves me.
Is it possible you ought to keep your feelings to yourself for a bit? I think she knows how you feel, don't you? I mean, was that an issue for you two?
However she is very angry at me and can't seem to let go of that anger. It's preventing her from R.
A reconciliation at this point would be premature. I mean, don't rush this. It's far better to take it slowly, b/c rushing it often ends it for good.
What NEW told do you have for dealing with things? What are your NEW GAL and 180s? You said a few vague things about them, but you really seem to want to rush back and Peter,
you rush at your peril. That makes me sad. It makes her sad too,
but she's ok with being stuck - she says it's part of the process.
SHE has not been at this in a DB way for very long, nor have you. "Stuck" is more for couples at this for years and that was your Last marriage, not this one. Maybe your past is making you more in a hurry b/c you don't want to waste so much time again..
So it's hard to detach when we spend so much time together. I think that's good, trying to fill the love bucket.
So these^^ two sentences conflict. You think it's hard to detach when you are together but i the next sentence you reveal you do not want to detach' you want to show her the new you. But you can do both at the same time, detach AND show the new you.
IN fact in your situation being detached would be a 180 and would also show her the new you but you also have to show somehow that SHE and spending time with her are your priorities.
As for GAL activities, I was going to the jazz club every Sat night. I tried Tai Chi once - didn't really like it. I play in a rock band weekly.
But I haven't really gone out and done something totally new for me. I like just staying home and reading. I'm a bit of a loner I guess, although I do really enjoy going out and meeting new people. I just haven't done it.
I call BS on that^^. IT's Double speak for you being stuck and Not getting out of your comfort zone. If I were in your shoes, I'd do whatever I can to expand my comfort zones ASAP.
Period.
You have a history of changing too slowly, and being in a mediocre relationship or being the cause of one, for a decade.
That's just Way too long. What can You do? YOU can Work harder, dig deeper and figure out what about YOU -not them-- makes it hard to stay invested.
What can YOU do differently so you are not here again in 3 years? Thanks for the suggestions, 25yearsmlc. I do need to get out and do stuff, meet people.
Even when I sit at home and read, it angers my W
because she envious that I have time to read.
Why do you say she is angry and what did SHE SAY to you about it? If she truly does not have time to read, YOU need to help her get some.
Why do you believe she is envious of you having time to read? B/c she doesn't? B/c she works and does housework, and you don't but you do have time to "read and relax?"
What can you do to help her so she doesn't do all the work? How can you help her have some free time and what can you do in your free time to help around the house or finances?Sort of stupid, because she has time to read to, but she can't seem to concentrate or focus enough to read - her mind is still scrambled.
^^^ this is you totally mind reading and totally absolving yourself of any role in her schedule. Maybe that's fair...maybe
She does watch a lot of Netflix. That's her down time.
Okay that sounds what exhausted people do....but I'm sensing some judgement on it. Or not?
So I guess I'll have to see what's going on in town and try out a few groups. I could volunteer - there's lots of demand for that.
I'd start with making HER LIFE EASIER, helping HER GAL, and then work on the GAL things for you. It's something she has every right to want, and I think she has been clear there, don't you?I'm going on a 4 day hike with my sons this coming weekend. But right now I'm busy reshingling my roof - got another 3 or 4 days to get it done, while my W is in Florida taking a much needed vacation. She'll be back Thursday and then I'm gone on the hike Friday, so we'll touch base Thursday night. I haven't heard from her at all in 2 days.
I'm not about to text her or call her. I'll wait for her to initiate contact with me.
Makes sense. Has she contacted the kids at all? And do you have 2 sons and a daughter or 3 sons? I thought I read you had 4 kids, but must have confused you with someone else. It's been quiet from the W for 2 days now. I hope she's getting sleep - she was sleep deprived for a long time since she was working the night shifts at the retirement home.
So that's it from here.
Keep on keeping on. Do what works, and Do NOT do what doesn't work.
Sure, it IS simple. But it's not easy... just not complicated.
Stick to it.
Hey PeterV2,
How are you ? I am Ox. It seems we may have a similar pattern in our marriage.
I am going to take some time to read through all your threads, but I guess you and the wife were together throughout her affair?
It ended on it's own or did you think you showed her that you were a man worth fighting for?
Anyhow just some thoughts and questions.
I'll check back after I read ...may take a couple of days...
25yearsmlc, thank you for your thoughtful questions. First let me clear a few things up.
And do you have 2 sons and a daughter or 3 sons? I thought I read you had 4 kids, but must have confused you with someone else.
My W has one daughter, 27, from her previous marriage and I have 2 sons, 20 & 23 and one daughter, 18, from my first marriage. None of them live with us.
Why do you believe she is envious of you having time to read? B/c she doesn't? B/c she works and does housework, and you don't but you do have time to "read and relax?"
My W doesn't live in our house. We bought a 14 room seniors retirement home (RH) in Dec 2012 and she moved into a room there in Nov 2013. A month later I discovered the A.
Maybe you ought to work (for money) so you can ease your wife's anxieties AND you won't be working much more than now, yet you'll be earning money.
I have my own business and I work from home. The RH is a corporation in her name and she runs that business. Right now the RH has 7 vacant rooms which we are trying to fill, however the business is not making money and my business is subsidizing hers. Once the rooms are full then her business will make good money. I am her maintenance man and work there almost daily fixing things that go wrong, and things are constantly breaking like any household.
So I live alone in our matrimonial home. I do all my own cleaning, laundry and chores and some cooking when I feel like it. She comes and visits me here once in while, and grabs some different clothes from her closet.
She lives in the RH and has a nice suite (which I built) with an ensuite bathroom. She eats at the RH. She does her laundry at the RH. The staff does the cleaning, although she does clean her own room. But she does a lot of grocery shopping and running around getting stuff for the RH. She also goes out and sees friends and takes good care of herself. I encourage her to take time for that.
Right now she's on a vacation and I told her not to phone the RH, that I would take care of her business while she's gone; that she needs a complete cold turkey break from the business. I told the staff to call me if there are any issues. I did the grocery shop yesterday for the RH and did the payroll.
That's a LONG time to put up with a sexless (loveless??) marriage. 10 years...why do you think it fizzled out?
I mean, I know that no sex for a decade kills most marriages - but why did that happen in the first place? (I assume that is what you are referring to when you say it "fizzled out". )
So, any insights there?
As for my first marriage, I made the mistake of telling her that I didn't marry her because of her looks but because of her personality. She was insulted and I don't think ever forgave me for that faux-pas. It's true I loved her personality, although she wasn't unattractive. But I think that sort of started the decline. We didn't sleep in the same bed for a decade because I snored. So I slept on the couch or with one of the kids if they needed me. We did love each other and did have a lot of good times. I was trying to spend more time listening to her and validating her. I have a problem with validating my partners, and this I have now identified and am working on validating as much as I see fit - don't want to go overboard. So my first wife had an EA and then asked me to move out to "give us time". I took that as a good-bye. After a couple of month I found out it was a PA and then we got D. I worked hard to minimize the impact on the kids and I would say they're happy & well-adjusted.
And how are you showing increased empathy?
As for empathy, I am very consciously seeing things from my W's point of view. I'm trying hard to listen very closely to what she says and to read between the lines / read the body language and delivery.
Not sure about how you know she "felt anxious" but I can easily see how she'd see a frantic "too busy to live" approach in you.
My W told me that my rushing made her anxious. I stopped rushing.
Hey, no offense, okay? But this^^ implies that SHE must change HER behavior. The reality is You do as well. What are you doing to keep your needs in check? How are you working on NOT asking so much of her, so often?
How are you doing learning about what she does like and enjoy, so you know you are not again asking her to "endure" something she does not enjoy?
We were talking about this the other day and she realizes that she needs to stop trying to please me - I told her I was fine with that. I also am trying very hard not to make any requests for her.
Amen. I know I need to give her lots of space and time.
You think it's hard to detach when you are together but i the next sentence you reveal you do not want to detach' you want to show her the new you. But you can do both at the same time, detach AND show the new you.
IN fact in your situation being detached would be a 180 and would also show her the new you but you also have to show somehow that SHE and spending time with her are your priorities.
How do I detach and then also spend lots of time with her?
Why do you believe she is envious of you having time to read? B/c she doesn't? B/c she works and does housework, and you don't but you do have time to "read and relax?"
What can you do to help her so she doesn't do all the work? How can you help her have some free time and what can you do in your free time to help around the house or finances?
She told me she’s envious of me having time to read. She told me her mind is too scramble to read. I think she’s still in withdrawals from her recently ended A, but that is just mind reading. I don’t bring that up any more.
Yeah, I know she’s worn out, exhausted, burnt out. That’s why all she can do is watch TV in her down time. She’s sleep deprived. I’ve hire a HR firm to find her a live-in caregiver so that she can sleep through the nights. Hopefully we’ll hire someone in the next couple of weeks. She needs the help.
I help her every opportunity I get. I just spent a month reshingling the roof on the RH to save her $10,000. So needless to say I haven’t been reading much this past month. But now I have to go as I’m reroofing our matrimonial home now. I want to have it done by the time she returns from her vacation.
Thanks for all the advice 25yearsmlc. So did you R with your H?
Last time I heard from W was last Thursday. A brief text: "Hi".
I've been busy reroofing our house for the past week. No word from W. I went to MC yesterday. MC seems to think W is just decompressing and taking a break from everything. Who knows what tomorrow may bring when she returns from vacation. I'm just keeping detached.
Hey Pete thats what ive been doing too. Doing alot of maitenance and repairs around home . Its good for the mind and good for the property. Not to mention it keeps you from thinking about W . It also reminds her of how good you are at hands on work and keeping the household in ship shape . Perhaps OM is a dork and doesn t know what end of a screw driver to hold on to . lolol In my case far as im concerned he could have the ability to build an egyptian pyramid and he d still be a piece of garbage for having an affair with a married women with children .
Didn't finish the roof toady, but it'll hold out the weather until next week when I get back home.
W came home tonight. Texted me before she flew out of Miami. First text in a week. Texted me again when she landed in Toronto. Phoned me on the way from the airport talked for a half hour and invited me to come visit her.
I showered, put on my best shirt and cologne. When I pulled in she came to me and gave me a long hard hug - like 30 seconds. We sat & talked about her vacation - she slept a lot. Had a very relaxing time and is feeling totally different. After a half hour I left and she gave me a couple more long hard hugs & kisses.
I'm going away now for 4 days on a hike with my 2 sons. She said she may meet me at the end of the hike.
I'm feeling pretty good about things. I didn't say ILY or any pursuing thing - well I did go in for a third hug and kiss.
We'll see what the next few days brings.
Im happy for you Pete , but I think IM doomed . I feel totally terrible this morning . She left last night to be with OM
The other day W called me and asked if I wanted to have a coffee with her. I said our place or yours? She came here, we had a coffee. Then she pulled out some paintings we wanted to get framed: one from our first trip to the Caribbean, one from our wedding trip and another her brother painted. Then we went to a jeweller to start the process of getting some custom jewelry for our 2 daughters and W. Then we went out to dinner.
At dinner she asked me, "well where do we go from here?" I told her I think we need to create a new path for a new relationship. She asked me if it doesn't work out and we find we were just not meant to be together she'd still like to be friends and be supportive of each other. I didn't reply to that one except to say let me think on that.
She also said she feels like we're best friends but there are some things she can't tell me and that's hard. I should have asked her what those things are but I didn't press the issue. Now it's driving me crazy trying imagining what she wanted to say but couldn't.
We talked about how our relationship broke and I admitted that I was disrespectful of her views and insistent on getting my own way. She agreed that she gave in to me and shouldn't have. But I said that's in the past. I know now never to let things get to that point. That I need to respect her views and wishes.
I told her to get back on track will be a lot of hard work. She said then maybe it's not right - it should be easy. (I don't know what she's smoking). I think she's still conflicted.
Is it time to suggest reconciliation? Is it time to pull out the DB book and go over it with her? I also got a course from StrongMarriageNow by Dr Dana Filmore with modules on how to get your partner checked back in and the half a dozen modules on relationship skills to be learned.
Or should I let her flounder some more and back off? I believe the A is over but she hasn't offered me her phone for me to check. I've opened my computer to her - I have nothing on it to hide.
I could use some guidance here. Are we at a stage where I can suggest R?
Hiya, Peter.
It is great to see that you are having interactions with W. Seems to be moving in the right direction...but very, very slowly.
Is it time to suggest reconciliation? Is it time to pull out the DB book and go over it with her? I also got a course from StrongMarriageNow by Dr Dana Filmore with modules on how to get your partner checked back in and the half a dozen modules on relationship skills to be learned.
Don't ever reveal the DB book to a WAS. This is our playbook and should be kept close to our vest. Oh man...I have seen posters reveal DB or DB site to their WAS and it all blows up in their faces. Not good.
If you feel that Strong Marriage Now would be a good step, I think it is worthwhile. Of course, W will need to be willing to do this as well. It takes two to tango.
Have you considered Retrouville? I've seen posters swear by it. So might be worth checking out for you and W.
Creating new memories and hobbies as a couple has proven to be a good way to bond together. You might want to chat with W about this and find creative ways to experience new experiences together.
Have you checked your intel to verify that the A is indeed completely over between W and OM?
I have not checked intel to confirm the A is over. I thought I shouldn't snoop. But I could.
Oh. She was visiting an elderly friend of ours. She just sent me a text saying the old lady says hi. I replied: tell her your husband says hi too. She sent me back a smile
See - my imagination is too fertile. I should start screenwriting.
I went over to the RH just as she was leaving. I asked her, where are you going and she looked at me like what business is it of yours. I said what's with the look and she said she'd be back in a couple hours. She wasn't.
But I've got things to do.
Oh, I slept beside her last night.
I went over to the RH to help frame the prints she pulled out, for which she bought frames and mattes. Then we hung them in her office. These represent good memories of when we were in love and getting married. So in that regard is see it as a positive sign that she wants to look at them went working in her office.
When I first got there she hugged me and smelled my cologne. She came in for another hug, saying oh you smell good as she was sniffing my neck and shirt. (Mont Blanc Legend - thanks guys)
Afterwards she was getting ready for bed and asked me to fix the TV which she had recently moved across her room. So I fixed it, turned on one of our favourite shows, got undressed and crawled into bed with her. She said, what are you doing. I said staying for a while. She eventually fell asleep so I stayed. In the morning we had coffee and I rubbed her back and neck which she complained was sore because she didn't sleep well because I was in the bed. But she was good natured about it.
I can't figure her out. One moment she's hugging and holding me and kissing me and the next she's saying I can't do this. She still won't show me her phone. I get suspicious but then again I have a very fertile imagination and often it's way off the mark.
I have to stop obsessing about her and what she's up to. It's just so hard.
I have no intel into what's going on with the A. She said it's over and our MC seems to think it's over, but the process of rebuilding trust has not begun.
Back in early May I told her on Sandi's advice, that there will be no relationship talk until the A is over. When she told me it was over, we started talking about our relationship again, but she has never shown me definitive proof that it's over. Should I now ask her for that proof?
The other day at dinner she asked me if she's disappointed me. I told her I'll think about that. I've thought about it: I'm disappointed when a movie I want to see is sold out. To say I'm disappointed that she had an A trivializes the utter pain, betrayal and loss of a trusted friend that the A represents. Should I tell her that?
Just looking for some guidance here. Sandi? Wonka? Starsky?
Yesterday evening was at RH for a visit. As I was leaving we hugged, and then I went in for more hugs and a squeeze and I whispered in her ear ILY - no reply. Sort of asking for it. I know - still should refrain from that. I was just feeling romantic. I guess she wasn't. I gotta learn to stay back. Too much pursuing lately. Earlier in the evening she said she's nervous around me - like she has to be hyper vigilant - she's not sure why she feels that way & will ask our MC. She said she does feel like she's let me down or something like that - which to me indicates a touch of remorse. Her self-esteem is low enough as it is right now so I'm not about to reinforce that she's a let down.
Had a good day today. I called at 11:30 this morning and woke her up - she sleeps odd hours. Went to RH and made her toast & coffee and then we went to the golf driving range - her first time - she has been talking about taking up golf for a year now. We knocked off a bucket of balls and she had fun & we had a few laughs. I'm no golfer but I can hit a ball once in a while.
She said we should do this again - she may say at any time, I'll meet you at the driving range and we go. Then we had a bit of lunch and went shopping and then to D27 and fiancé's place and cooked a great dinner and had a good time.
Went back to RH so she could start her shift and she hugged & kissed me goodbye. Said she had a great day. All is good.
Hey, I had to dig up your thread. (lol) I knew you had to be here somewhere.
To answer your question, I think you should not present the DB material to her. In fact, I don't know that suggesting any books to read is the best idea. B/c she is too tired and doesn't have the time to read (and study) books. Didn't she say she was jealous of you having time to read?
So, why not direct her question of "what now" back to her. Ask her what would she be willing to do in order to reconcile. Don't take the conversation over, just listen to what she says (or doesn't say).
There are a few things that still concern me. She is too private about her whereabouts, phone, etc. She doesn't like it if you causally ask where she's going. I believe she's got to let go of it.....if she has nothing to hide. If she's going to be in a M with you, she can't have a hidden life you know nothing about.
The other thing that concerns me is how she seems to talk about a future friendship, but doesn't refer with the same intensity toward a MR (unless that's just how you wrote it). She has mentioned several times how she wants the two of you to be good friends. She may even be interested in friends with benefits, IDK. But when she says a reconciliation should not be work and it should be easy.....that sounds so script for a WAW. It seems to me that most people would know that you have to put work into it. Not working on a R is what causes so many problems.
One of the many issues the WAW has, is that starting a new relationship with a new person is so much easier than working to fix the old one. That's why her answer sounds too script to ring completely clear. But maybe that's just me.
She is holding you at arms length. I think you pushed your luck by inviting yourself to sleep with her. I think you really need to wait and see if she warms up toward you more physically before making those type of moves.
So IDK that she'll bring it up again (about the R). You may want to ask her what she's willing to do to get the M back on track. If she doesn't offer much of an answer, then tell her that you think it would be wise to have some type of professional guidance (solution based) in piecing the M back together again. You don't want to take chances of just seeing where it goes. (That's what a WAS does.....just wants to see where it goes, b/c they base everything on emotions.) You could find a highly recommended program for repairing M's, therapist, or whatever. But I strongly recommend you invest in something that will help the two of you. Things don't just fall into place (at least they won't stay that way) without knowing what to do when faced with certain issues.
I think you could determine where you stand by the answer she gives. She may not be on board yet. You may want to wait till later and continue more of the same. But there is something that seems off and I have to wonder if she's being fully open or honest about everything.
Hi Sandi. Thanks for finding me again. Here's the thing. When we bought the Retirement Home (RH) she wanted to wait and not close the deal for about 1-4 months after what was being proposed. I was afraid the deal would fall through and she had told me it was her dream job at the time. She signed the papers.
Well now she's blaming me for the mess we're in because the taking over of the RH was way more work than we expected. It caused her burn-out and checking out of our M. Now we're half vacant and unless my business puts money into hers, the RH, then it'll go under. So she works the night shifts now - has been since about March. 9pm - 7am. Well, she's up until midnight then sleeps til 3am, does her rounds and goes back to bed. Has difficulty getting back to sleep often, so her sleep is broken and not consistent.
Recently after I shingled the roof a shingle had fallen over an outside drain and a heavy rainstorm caused her office and bedroom to flood. She was very upset. It was a mess and it took about a week to clean up.
Then she went away on her vacation and when she got back I left for my hike for 4 days. On the 2nd day another heavy rain caused an even worse flood in her office and bedroom which put her over the top. She was very stressed and wanting to walk away from her life.
That was July 26. Tonight I took my saw and cut a square out of the subfloor to reveal that underneath was still covered with water - the only solution is for her to move out of her office and bedroom and I have to rip out all the subfloor and replace it - a major job. She just about lost it. Crying and blaming me for everything & asked me to leave. I didn't leave. I talked her down and tried my best to use not only reason but compassion and empathy, and admitting my mistakes, but not taking the blame for things beyond my control. I suggested she move her bedroom to another vacant room at the other end of the home and I said I'd start helping her move her things tonight.
So we move her closet stuff into the new room with a huge walk-in closet (nice). We need to get the carpet steam cleaned in the morning before moving the furniture - staff will do that. She should be in her new room by tomorrow night. I'll set her up nicely. We'll move to office to another empty room.
Then she's planning on going away Sunday by herself for about 3 days just to get away from it all. Going to a cottage somewhere. Hopefully that'll give me the time to fix the floor and get her old office & bedroom back on track.
I sort of want to wait until the flood repairs are behind us before I broach the subject of reconciliation. Her mental state is too fragile right now. Like you say, timing is everything, and now is not the time to talk about R.
She is too private about her whereabouts, phone, etc. She doesn't like it if you causally ask where she's going. I believe she's got to let go of it.....if she has nothing to hide. If she's going to be in a M with you, she can't have a hidden life you know nothing about.
She keeps saying she need to find herself. To get her life back. She doesn't want to be dependent on anyone. She want her freedom. She feels like a prisoner having to be at the RH all the time.
She does go out & visit friends. She went to a function Sat night with some other ladies - stayed out late. So she does take time off - especially when the staff are on duty during the days. She still begrudges me my GAL and that I can seemingly come and go as I please. I didn't argue with her. Not a battle I want to fight right now.
So I think keeping her phone and life private from me is a way of exerting her freedom and independence from me.
As for a program to get the M back on track I got the Strong Marriage Now program by Dr Dana Filmore. Basically training on half a dozen threads: spend more time together, communication,
conflict resolution, handling money issues, dividing responsibilities, and sex. It may help.
We do have a MC but we have only seen her individually except for one time 3 days after BD. W wants to see her after she gets back from the cottage. Then I think we should go in together and start SBT.
But I thought that was why she took the last trip (that was only a few days ago)- She won't even tell you where this cottage is relocated? That seems so over the top. Knowing where she is going has nothing to do with her"finding herself"-
She'll probably let me know where the cottage is. I've even suggested a few resorts which she thanked me for.
Yeah she took the last trip to get a break but ended up socializing with friends pretty well the whole time. Didn't really get a lot of alone time. This time she just wants to be alone - to have some solitude and time to collect her thoughts.
Yeah she's an enigma.
She just sent me a text earlier today to pick up potatoes for the RH. That's the last I've heard from her. I sent her a couple of texts with no reply. It's now 11pm and I have no idea where she is. She has a staff staying overnight at the RH so she could stay out all night if she wants.
Whatever. I spent about 6 hours at the RH this pm doing maintenance work but she wasn't there. Left at 9 & went home.
I'll just carry on here at home.
A couple of days ago she was crying and said, "I'm done." I told her things would get better but she to me to leave her alone and she continued crying as I left. I don't really know what she's done with. The RH? Our M? Life? I didn't ask. Maybe I should have, but the timing didn't seem right. She stopped kissing me good-bye since then. Just a hug. I think that flood in the basement put her over the top. She blamed me for it because I didn't fix something she told me to fix. It's fixed now, but too late. I totally disagree with her that I'm to blame but I'm not about to start arguing with her about that. I tried arguing my case but she's locked into her own beliefs. We'll get the insurance company to fix the damage.
Now she's moved into one of the largest rooms in the RH - very nice. She likes it. Hopefully that will improve her outlook on life and she'll cut me a little slack.
I haven't heard from W in 2 days.
So earlier today I sent her a text saying I haven't heard a word from you in 2 days, and I'm a little worried. Are you ok?
So just now I got a text from the staff member at the RH who is doing the night shift in W's absence saying W texted her and to pass the message on that she's ok.
I find it strange that she didn't respond to my text saying she's ok but went through the staffer. I guess she just wants NC with me while she's away. I have no idea where she is.
I know I just need to detach and GAL, but I thought we were progressing fairly well, until the flood at least, when she said she's done.
I'm in a bit of a panic. This is very difficult.
I feel like sending her a text asking her why she couldn't just respond to me instead of going through the staff. And to ask her where she is. But I feel that constitutes pursuing. She'll be back tomorrow or the day after (I hope). We can discuss her behaviour then if she's still on board.
Nuh...nope. STFU.
There's nothing to "discuss" regarding W's behavior. You can say in a netural tone that you wanted to be sure W was safe as you were seeing flooding in the area. That's that.
I think you need to leave her alone for a while. When she comes back to the RH, I think you should pull back. She is too on edge. The slightest push from you and she's going to run. I don't how you can do it, but if she doesn't get out from under that RH, your M may not reconcile. No matter how financially profitable it may be, it could cost you the M. I'm telling you.....burn out can be like pouring gasoline on the fire if she's in an A.
If she is still seeing OM, then this pressure with you and RH could be enough "excuse" to leave everything behind her. Maybe she is looking for an excuse, IDK. However, you waiting to meet her with a discussion about her recent behavior is not a good idea. IMO, it will be bad timing.
Stay away from the RH and don't contact her. Wait and see what her next move will be.
She's not coming back until Wed, so I have tomorrow to fix a leak and a couple other maintenance issues before she gets back.
I hear you Wonka & Sandi. Thanks for the 2x4. Once she's back I'll stay as dark as she lets me. She may text me and want to talk and see me. Not sure. I'll leave it up to her.
I'm trying my best to help her business get over this drought. We have a tentative meeting set up for Thurs. I'll need to confirm that with her when she returns. It's hard to be helping her run a business and staying away at the same time.
Yes, I'll just let her dictate the next move.
Smart Peter,
Sit back and wait. Don't ask, don't probe, don't push. Just be, and let your W be. It's so hard, but from what I've read, it looks like it's what she needs. Sometimes, the hardest things are the toughest, and most important things to do. Stay strong, and patience my friend
Dev
Once she's back I'll stay as dark as she lets me. She may text me and want to talk and see me. Not sure. I'll leave it up to her.
What do you mean?
Try to maintain a business level in any conversation about the RH that may arise. Otherwise, I think you need to hang back and not open a R discussion at this time. If she wants to talk, then just listen to what she has to say. Don't argue or try to reason with her. Simply listen. Then go home to think about it before you give any type of response to her.
I hope she won't approach you with a negative R talk, but with her emotional state being what it is......it's like sitting on a bomb, never knowing when it will go off!
I mean I have no idea what's going through her mind. I'll heed your advice, Sandi, and not open any R talk, while only listening to her R talk if she does. I just have to keep cool and business-like.
Yes, Dev, this is tough. No questions. Just a pleasant, business-like demeanor.
Well she phoned me around 6pm to tell me she's back in town. Had a restful couple of days - slept a lot, watched a few movies and some TV - just chilled. She seemed in a great mood. Happy about the progress of the work I did at the RH. She may be coming over to our house for a bit.
Seems I was freaking out for no reason - seems like everything is cool with her. Still I won't bring up any R talk - I'll wait for her lead on that.
She came home and we ate dinner together. Then she ask me to come to the RH so I followed her there. We had a good evening but no R talk. When I left she hugged and kissed me goodbye. But the kiss was still tentative - not as much into it as it was a couple of weeks ago.
She said she feels like she's lost a sense of her "self". Said she's been crying a lot every day. She's going to make an appt with our MC. But she did say she had a good break - what she needed to decompress a little.
I was supportive that she gets help and tries to regain her sense of self. I told her I'm here for her. She thanked me for that.
She still hasn't told me where she went, but I'm not about to ask. No pushing or pursuing. I really don't think she was with the OM or she would have been more anxious. She was quite relaxed. She sent me a TM: see you tomorrow.
I went to the RH this morning first thing to oversee the workers from the insurance claim starting to fix the flood damage. W & I had a coffee and talked a bit but then we both had places to go.
This evening after dinner W called me & invited me over to hang out. We sat on the couch and she started into the R talk. She's still bringing up old hurts from 10 years ago. And a lot of other hurts from the past. She's angry at me for those things, which drove her from me. I said I apologize but she seems to think it would be better and more healing for both of us if I were to explain and apologize in a letter to her. Yes, she asked me to write her a letter. So I guess I should write her.
She's also afraid my changes are just to get her back and not changes for me. I assured her they are for me, but I don't think she believes me.
She says she never will let me hurt her again.
You see, I was always too busy and I brought her into my busyness and that didn't give her time to do the things she liked doing before we met, so she gave up a lot of her single life activities to be with me and because I was always working on projects she would always be working with me so she could spend time with me. That became the pattern but it was not what she wanted. She told me that often but my projects were self perpetuating and I couldn't seem to stop so eventually she pulled away.
As we were saying goodbye she apologized for getting angry with me and said she doesn't like getting angry with me. She gave me a hug goodbye but when I went to kiss her like we usually do she turned her cheek to me. I gave her a look but she just smiled and said good night.
So I need to write a letter to her, apologizing for those things I did that lead to the breakdown of our marriage.
I have been following your thread. Clearly, write the letter. Spend a lot of time on it. Make sure it is hand written on nice paper. It will make a difference. I also would recommend do some research on line on these types of letters to get some advice on what to say and what not to say.
It does sound like she needs space and time to see if your changes will stick. Just keep the changes going and put your W first over everything. I am not saying romance her but you cannot let work take precedence over her.
Peter,
Please post your draft letter for feedback and input. There is no rush to this process as there's no real deadline to give it to your W.
It is encouraging that she's opening up a bit to you.
Thanks Shodan & Wonka. Yes, I'll post the draft here for feedback & input. It's going to get very personal so please bear with me. I've been mulling it over in my mind. Yes she seems to be opening up a bit (R talk) but at the same time seems to be shutting me out a bit more too (no kisses). Maybe it's a balance she's trying to keep.
I spent quite a bit of time with her today. Had an 11am apt at the RH with a prospect, then I went back to work for a while and then another 2pm appt at the RH after which I had a short nap in her room (15min) before our 4pm apt with a new employee. Then I left before that meeting was over to meet my son for his 21st Bday. Stayed out all evening with him. W was texting me but I didn't respond. She finally phoned me just as I was coming home and we talked for a while. She wanted to know where we went for dinner. I didn't tell her. Just said we went back to my son's place after for a visit. Actually I was at his mom's (my ex's) place for dinner but I didn't really want W to know because she's still uncomfortable with my ex.
As often as she harpes on old hurts, have you ever asked her what she wants YOU to do? If she keeps bringing it up, she's clearly still angry about it. She couldn't even kiss you goodnight after having that talk again.
I believe she is either hanging on to unforgiveness to justify her A.....or she feels these issues were never resolved and is needing SOMETHING (from you?) to help her put it to rest.
I really can't see the M reconciling until she finds peace with this. If there is something she expects from you.....find out what it is! Otherwise, why do you put up with this same old stuff over & over? It needs to be resolved or stopped once and for all.
I can tell you from experience that the more you allow her to browbeat about the same past offenses, the more unattractive you will be to her. B/c she is keeping that old wound raw by aggravating it all the time. In doing so, I believe it affects her level of respect for you. So I am saying that there comes a time that just listening to her harp is not healthy. You've tried validating her when she does this, right? It doesn't seem to stop her from bringing it up again.
So once you write a letter giving her a pound of your flesh, what is left for you to do? Didn't you try apologizing for everything quite some time ago? She wants you to continue apologizing over & over for past offenses, but she can't apologize for being unfaithful and for not being willing to disclose her whereabouts?
P.S. Regarding you thinking she didn't meet OM b/c she appeared too relaxed and happy, instead of being anxious. If a drug addict has just had their "fix" how do they respond to it? How does that differ from when they are needing a fix really badly? Think about it.
Sandi, what she wants me to do is put the apology in writing. She feels that me just saying I'm sorry is not allowing her to release and forgive. So I'll put it in the letter and if that doesn't give her closure and allow her to forgive and move on then I don't know what I'll do. I guess I could say, ok, now it's your turn to apologize to me. And I want it in writing. But I don't think this is a game of tit for tat. Or I could go through a course with her on Forgiveness which I got from Dr Dana Fillmore.
As for her being with OM, I remember when I knew she was with him, the next day she would have a panic attack. It was like clockwork. Very predictable. Probably due to guilt. She hasn't had a panic attack for a while and that's why I think the A may be over.
I don't believe a letter will hurt. I don't know that it will help her long-term, if she has a problem letting go.....but you can try. I don't suggest you ask her for a written apology in return. I believe it would go badly. Hopefully, if the A has truly ended, and if she has him out of her head.....your written apology will be a step in her healing. Some day, hopefully, she will apologize for the A. Right now, her anger is preventing it.
A couple of positives in her receiving a letter is (1)she can't interrupt it to spew on it, and (2) she can keep it to read over as many times as she feels the need. Oh, and another...she may read something she didn't hear in the verbal apology. I can understand how her angry mind could run ahead of the words being said to her at the moment, and could actually prevent her from completely hearing everything correctly. Maybe she will be able to "hear" this letter with her heart. I hope she can.
I spent a lot of time with her this past weekend. She went out on Friday evening with one of our departing employees for a farewell dinner so I stayed at the RH until she returned. On Saturday night she went to a friend's wedding reception so I stayed again at the RH until she returned which was earlier than I expected. And she woke me up this morning by calling me to see how I was doing. Then I went over and cooked her brunch and we worked on stuff all day, had dinner together and I gave her a foot massage before I left which made her feel very good and we kissed goodbye. She called me later and we spoke for an hour on the phone. All seems good. But I still need to compose that letter.
I just need to keep up the positive interactions and help her through her difficult moments with positive gestures.
Funny, I talked to a friend who just split up with his partner because he cheated on her. He was telling me the drama and I gave him a number of tips and advice. He said to me that I seem to know a lot about this sort of thing and that what I was saying is exactly what he read in a book by Wilbur Harvey. I didn't tell him about DR but did tell him it may take up to 5 years to regain her trust. Sometime explaining things to others helps me to learn it better myself. Teaching is learning.
A very positive weekend.
hey Peter I miss you valuable insight into my sitch . Can you check out my latest thread and give me a little boost ?
Ok. Here's the first installment in my apologies.
My dear W
Back in 2004 when we were first dating and you were at my place, I got a phone call that my ex was coming over to drop some stuff off for the kids or something. I did not want my ex meeting you at that point, as she was at the time being very unreasonably and had a gift for twisting things to her own advantage, so in order to protect myself from the potential vitriol from my ex I had asked you if you could leave my house for a half hour while I dealt with the ex. I realize now that that made you feel that you were less important to me than my ex was and that caused you long lasting pain.
My intention was only to protect myself from another potential psychological attack from my ex. In no way did I intend to hurt you or make you feel unimportant to me. I was going through a rough time in my divorce and acted selfishly in that regard. I will make every effort not to exhibit that type of behaviour again. I am working to improve my ability to empathize and be more considerate of the feelings of those I love.
I sincerely regret my actions that day, and wish I could turn the clock back and stand my ground against my ex, exhibiting the true pride I felt of having you by my side. I would like to make amends for that inconsiderate act if you could let me know how I could achieve that.
Please forgive me for my inconsideration and selfishness.
Love
Your H
Wait a slow cotton pickin' time, Peter....isn't what your W is still stuck on 10 years on??!! That is what's causing her pain now??! That's her pretext for exiting the M and getting involved with OM?
Ya serious about that??
I cannot wrap this around my head over an incident that took place 10 years ago....
Why are you apologizing over this one incident? There has to be more than just that one to make W feel the need for you to write an apology letter to her. I cannot help but wonder at your W's motivation or agenda in having you write the apology letter. Just so you can suffer some more if the letter doesn't satisfy her.
Something's off here, Peter. Hope I am wrong.
Wonka;
She keeps bringing up that incident. There are a few other incidents that she also keeps bringing up.
1) That I was looking at porn until she asked me to stop which I did.
2) That I wouldn't seek to change my sep agreement with my ex until W threatened to leave.
3) That I was too busy to take time out to spend with her when she needed to take time off.
4) That I would be persistent until I got my way - especially on the closing date of the RH which I pushed for Nov 2012 and she wanted Mar 2013.
She claims all these things contributed to her deciding to walk away in Oct 2012. But she didn't start her A until Apr 2013 and I didn't find out about it until Dec 2013.
She told me the other night that after we went to MC in Sept 2013 and I admitted to settling with my ex and losing $156K in the deal that my W didn't know about that and after learning that decided to hook up with OM. I don't believe her. I think she was already sleeping with him back in June 2013.
But we discussed that 10 year old incident the other day and although I apologized again for it she said it might help if I wrote her a letter in that regard.
In past times, dod you "explain" the situation about your ex, when you apologized to your W? I have known some guys who would say "sorry" but never explained by giving details. To some of us, it's not just about hearing an apology as it is in wanting to hear "why".
No, I didn't explain it as clearly as I did in this letter.
Peter in no way would i discount what Wonka is saying but i totally agree with writing the letter of apology for that incident if she said it may help . Now I dont see this as bootlicking ( lol how do you like that analogy ? ) I see it as something she genuinely wants you to be sorry for and if it takes a letter to make it sincere to her then you should . It doesnt matter if it was two weeks ago or ten years ago , if she remembered it and carried it for that long then it is important to her . What you did is in no way an excuse for her having an affair but it obviously was traumatic for her to remember it . Good job my friend on picking up on that . Some others may think different but this is my take onit. Dawgy
Also i believe its important in your letters to start " My dear wife " and to end with "love your husband " as you did do Pete . Good job
Hi Peter,
Just wanted to give you a quick Man Hug. I know this is really hard. It seems the old wound symbolizes a larger pattern to her, but I can't be sure.
Best,
DB
No, I didn't explain it as clearly as I did in this letter.
I think it will help her put it to rest when she learns the whole story. I could see how she would have felt hurt over that situation without knowing everything you've described in the letter.
I hope you can do as well for the other past offenses.
I'm wondering if I should address each issue in a separate letter or consolidate them all in one longer one.
My opinion , separate letters .Too much too take in for her all in one letter . Several letters addressing each issue she would likely see the sincerity more . But thats just what im thinking . Dawgy
I agree with the separate letters.
Ok I'll write this first apology out in longhand on nice paper and give it to her tomorrow.
It's been a good week. We've spent a lot of time together. I've given lots of foot rubs and attention. Last night after we spoke I said ILY and she said ILY too. It seems she's warming up to me. I think presenting her with the letter now is good timing. If she asks for more I'll say one issue at a time and oblige.
This morning when I went over to the RH we spoke for a few minutes and then she asked me for a kiss. I should have planted a long one on her but I kept it light. No sense trying to kill a fly with a shotgun.
We've got a new hire who will be staying overnight (a live-in) starting in the next week or so, so that will enable my W to actually come back home. I need to make the transition inviting but not compulsory. She says she'll have to stay overnight at the RH until the new hire is used to the routine. At the same time my W will get to sleep through the night and hopefully the regular sleep pattern will improve her energy level and demeanor.
I think things are falling nicely into place. I just have to keep my PMA and listen to what she says, validating her and respecting her wishes. This whole DBing approach has been a godsend. I know it's still not where I want it to be, but as far as baby steps are concerned, where back in Dec we were at a 1.0 I would say we're at a 4.5 now. Still a long way to go but I know this is a marathon. And the positive progress is noticeable.
I wish everyone else on this site the strength to continue, persevere and improve month by month. I know there are down days and up days and by now I've come to take the down days in stride knowing that there will be an up day in the not too distant future. It's almost becoming predictable. Everything I've experienced is pretty well straight out of the book.
And furthermore, I thank everyone on this site for the friendship, support and great advice. (I guess you can tell I'm having an up day
)
Hi Peter, I just want you to know that you are an inspiration for me. Thanks for sharing the positive steps taking place in the r with your W. Best wishes.
So I gave her the apology letter today and she read it and thanked me for it. However she went on to ask why it was ok for my ex to be living with a new man but it was not ok for me. Again I repeated that that had nothing to do with it. I just didn't want my ex nosing into my new life.
My W said there were lost of other incidents where she felt like she wasn't the most important person to me. That my ex trumped her. But this of course was not the case. However that is her perception, or was her perception. I reiterated that she was and is the most important person in my life. She says, "yeah now I am. But for years I wasn't".
I'm perplexed. She's always been the love of my life since we first kissed. My numero uno. But obviously I did things to undermine that and caused her to have the perception that she wasn't #1. Perhaps I didn't communicate my feelings accurately. Perhaps some of my activities and actions caused her to perceive that I didn't think of her as #1.
How can I counter that?
I spent the rest of the day working with her at the RH. At one point she started a friendly playful pushing match - I responded with a push back, a hug & a wet kiss on the ear then continued on with my work. She cooked us lunch and we ate together. She later went to have a nap. So I finished work and came home.
I hope she reads the apology letter again. Maybe I should ask her if she's ready to start the reconciliation process. But I think I'll wait a couple of days to give her a chance to reread the letter and process the info from our discussion.
Peter,
Great job on the letters. Sounds like it was received fairly well. I would just wait on asking her to start the reconciliation process. The last thing you want to be doing is creating pressure for her. I know your excited. Contain it positively, and keep up the great work!
Dev
Thanks Dev. Yeah, I won't pursue.
She called me earlier when she awoke from her nap and was disappointed I left without saying goodbye, but I told her she was asleep and I didn't want to wake her. She was a bit grumpy but then asked if I wanted to pick up some dinner & come eat with her, so I went to Timmy's & got a couple sandwiches. We spent the evening together, had a couple glasses of wine and chatted - no R talk - just light talk and some business talk. Got two long hugs and kisses goodnight when I left. She's just a bit tipsy. She did blow me a kiss by TM. All in all a fairly good day.
Hi Sandi, when you have a moment, could you drop by my thread? Looking for your wise words of advice. TKs.
Peter,
I hope she reads the apology letter again. Maybe I should ask her if she's ready to start the reconciliation process. But I think I'll wait a couple of days to give her a chance to reread the letter and process the info from our discussion.
Gosh, you are really pushing it here! You just gave her the letter and she needs time to process it. The reconciliation process is not linear nor does it have a fixed time/deadline. It is a natural and organic process. Just let it unfold naturally without it being forced.
Enjoy the process.
My have a ring on my keychain that says:
Life's a journey not a destination.
Sandi;
You send me a post a couple of days ago about her being the most important person in my life, but I think it got deleted in the maintenance process. Could you please reiterate?
Sandi;
You send me a post a couple of days ago about her being the most important person in my life, but I think it got deleted in the maintenance process. Could you please reiterate?
Are you kidding? I barely remember this morning!
I can identify with your W's feelings to a point. However, I hope I am mature enough to accept the fact that it was my H's failure to "express" his feelings in a way that would "assure" me that I was top priority in his life. I know I was his number one love, but I was insecure & jealous of his time and attention.....and needed more proof than he was showing.
I really think that's what it boils down to.......the insecurity of the W. In my case, I was very young when we got M and my LL was words of affirmation. Which was not a good combination with having a H who apparently had no clue as to how to express his love (other than having sex) and certainly never shared his thoughts with me. Before we were M, he was in the military and we wrote letters nearly every day. (This was before emails and texting days.). I lived to get those letters! I think he did a better job writing than speaking. After we got M, it was like everything changed overnight and he was not telling me what I needed to hear. He was doing a lot of things that clearly told me he put the needs of his mother ahead of his own W. He will even admit he was a mamma's boy. They are sweet sons, but don't always make great H's b/c he has two women competing for his attention.
She died a few years ago. I use to secretly long for the day we could live without her constant control in our lives. I would dream of how that freedom would feel. So, the day came that she was laying in her coffin and I was staring down at her cold body. I knew we couldn't bury her before I forgave her for the hurt she caused me, b/c I had to move forward with peace in my life. So, I forgave her out of my "will". Which means, the
feelings of forgiveness had not caught up at that point. I didn't feel anything actually, but I decided to give us both (me and my MIL) forgiveness. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to forgive my H so easily. B/c that hurt over a period of the decades had turn into a deep resentment & bitterness. It changed me in a very I unattractive way, I'm sure. I tried not to let it show, but I know it came out in ways I was not aware b/c my family would tell me. I'm thinking that may be the case with your W, too.
Of course, as all those years rocked by, my M was gradually getting more strained. I was very depressed and began having a lot of health issues. When I got to the place I was not able to physically do things I once did (as my outlet to my unhappiness) I began playing online games. That's how I met OM, and had an EA.
You didn't need all that history for me to tell you that my H couldn't go back in time to undo what was done, anymore than you can do it in your stitch. However, I see something you "can" do for your W that my H hasn't done for me. You can admit to her that you did not give her the support and assurance you should have. You did not "share" with her your reasons or thoughts behind the actions you took. While your intentions were never to mistreat her, you obviously hurt her, and to a great degree. While you were set on protecting
her (your M, home, personal business, etc.) you were blind to what was really taking place in her heart/mind. It might help if you told her a couple of bad words you have called yourself for not being smarter. Just shows her how serious you are. You don't want to come across as being indifferent, as if to say....."This is how it happened and if you got hurt, that's your problem".
You see, I poured my heart out to my H for so many years about my frustration and hurt. I suppose he saw it as b'tching. He never one time told me he was wrong, or that he was sorry. I would have nearly given my right arm to hear him say he would have done things differently if it were possible to go back in time. But, nada.
I think you see what was done with the eyes of your intentions at that time. She saw only the outward physical results, and then probably added in her insecurities (jealousy, etc.). Over the years, this has not died down for her. It has continued to build up inside of her til it turned her into the pillar of resentment and unforgiveness. Perhaps she wants to be free of it, but doesn't know how. It has had a tight grip for a long time. Maybe she has trouble forgiving anyone.....or maybe it's just that you haven't convinced her you are truly sorry for hurting her. I think that is the core, that you say it with remorse. Regardless of how justified you felt......if you are remorseful now, perhaps she will be able to feel remorse over her A.
I would advise you not to use the word "jealous" whenever writing or talking about past events with her. I don't know many women who will admit it, and it makes them angry if they are told they felt jealousy. Don't tell her she was wrong to feel or think a certain way at that time. You want to point your own fingers back at yourself......and not at her. All you can do is explain what was in your mind and the reasons behind your actions. Don't patronize her, or anything along those lines. Your objective should be to explain yourself in a way that will "help" her understand .......or at least,
believe you never meant to put anyone else above her.
Sometimes letter writing is easier for some of us, b/c we can be more mushy with our wording......whereas we could feel awkward if we verbally spoke the same. So, get really down deep expressing your emotions when you want her to know how seriously you take her pain. Some men try to make the W appear foolish for getting her feelings hurt. But that is no way to handle things with a woman! Tell her what you told us......how you knew she was the one from the first kiss.
Assuring her by finding some different way or different words to give her.....other than saying "I apologize if I hurt you". Truth is, that doesn't show much empathy in those words. Not that you've said it, but I have heard other people say it that way. It's just not enough for some women. I'm thinking your W is one of them.
Well I guess you'll learn not to ask me to rewrite a post I can't remember!
get this book:
When Sorry Isn't Enough it has changed my perspective on apologies and what they mean to others and how to make them meaningfully to everyone. Written by the same guy who wrote 5LL.
Thanks Sandi & Ss06. I have some work to do...
Peter,
You wrote in dawgy's thread:
I'll be posting that apology letter on my thread when it's written.I hope you'll post your drafts here for feedback before hitting the send button. We're here to support you in any way we can.
Hi Wonka;
I'm reading "When Sorry Isn't Enough" right now. On chapter 9. I have printed out Sandi's lengthy response and keep reading it over. She hit the nail on the head there.
Yes I will definitely post the letter here first for critical analysis. Once complete I will memorize it and deliver it verbally and in writing.
I'm leaving on a business trip in a couple of weeks. I want to present it before I go. That will give her time to process it while I'm away for a week.
Smart man, smart man...my friend.
I finished the book. Now I realize the reality. I want reconciliation with my WAW. However that will only come as a result of the necessary prerequisites: namely 1) apology, and 2) forgiveness. Only once my spouse forgives me for the actions and behaviours that I did which caused our marriage to deteriorate will she be in an emotional position to consider reconciliation.
So the apology needs to be complete in all 5 aspects or apology languages. And once presented and forgiveness requested, then I have to be patient while she processes the apology and hopefully grants me the forgiveness that can then lead to a willingness to reconcile.
This process may hopefully encourage her to reciprocate the apology process. But I realize if I hold out on the apology for my role in the breakdown, then I may die alone.
I just finished "When Sorry Isn't Enough" myself! What a great book, huh?!
I hope it works!!! Sending you positive apology vibes!
Ok. Here it is. The first draft of my apology letter. I'm looking for comments and advice from you.
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My Dearest W;
Ever since our first kiss, you have been the most important person in my life. Since that day, I was totally smitten with you and those feelings have endured. I realize that there have been times when my words or actions may have made you feel like you were not number one in my life. That was never my intent and it was due to my lack of empathy, my lack of consideration for how you would perceive my actions, and my negligence to see the world from your point of view.
At times I would be persistent to a fault to arrange things in my life to suit what I thought was best, without looking deeply enough into your feelings to see if what I thought was best was actually not in your best interest. I have failed in those times to consider what was best for you and for our life. I know you would tell me what you thought and although I would take that into consideration, my blind determination and my arrogant opinion that I know best overrode your feelings. I realize now how that discrediting of your viewpoint by my insensitivity and selfishness had hurt you over and over again. My intentions never were to hurt you - I was trying to make our life together the best it could be but I was blind to what was really taking place in your heart and mind.
I've been an insensitive blockhead. I am so sorry that I have caused you all this pain. I have wept, having realized the depth of hurt that I caused you. If I could turn back time, with the awareness that I now have, I would have validated your feelings, truly seeing what's in your heart and acted in your best interest accordingly.
I wish to never hurt you again as I have done in the past. I am working on my awareness, listening to your heartfelt words and trying my best to maintain the changes I've made. I would ask that if you detect any indication that I'm not staying my course that you immediately bring it to my attention so that we can avoid any more bad behaviour on my part. I have learned much and have grown over the past eight months and never wish to go back to how I was - I would like to leave those old ways behind.
I would like to set things right. Perhaps we can take a deserving vacation to an exotic destination to spend a large block of uninterrupted quality time together, just you and I.
I know I cannot erase the hurts of the past. For those I ask for you forgiveness.
With all my love, forever
H
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Did I leave anything out? Is the request for her to police my changes fair?
Peter,
This is an excellent start!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Dearest W;
Ever since our first kiss, you have been the most important person in my life. Since that day, I was totally smitten with you and those feelings have endured. I realize that there have been times when my words or actions may have made you feel like you were not number one in my life. That was never my intent and it was due to my lack of empathysensitivity [or awareness], my lack of consideration for how you would perceive my actions, and my negligence to see the world from your point of view.
At times I would be persistent to a fault to arrange things in my life to suit what I thought was best, without looking deeply enough into your feelings to see if what I thought was best was actually not in your best interest. I have failed in those times to consider what was best for you and for our life. I know you would tell me what you thought and although I would take that into consideration, my blind determination and my arrogant opinion that I know best overrode your feelings. I realize now how that discrediting of your viewpoint by my insensitivity and selfishness had hurt you over and over again. My intentions never were to hurt you - I was trying to make our life together the best it could be but I was blind to what was really taking place in your heart and mind.
I've been an insensitive blockhead. I am so sorry that I have caused you all this pain. I have wept, having realized the depth of hurt that I caused you. If I could turn back time, with the awareness that I now have, I would have validated your feelings, truly seeing what's in your heart and acted in your best interest accordingly.
I wish to never hurt you again as I have done in the past. I am working on my awareness, listening to your heartfelt words and trying my best to maintain the changes I've made. I would ask that if you detect any indication that I'm not staying my course that you immediately bring it to my attention so that we can avoid any more bad behaviour on my partfeelings as a result of some misunderstanding or miscommunication. I have learned much and have grown over the past eight months and never wish to go back to how I was - I would like to leave those old ways behind.
I would like to set things right. Perhaps we can take a deserving vacation to an exotic destination to spend a large block of uninterrupted quality time together, just you and I. Our old marriage is dead. What I would like to see is for us to re-build our marriage in a new way that is affirming for the both of us. It is my hope that you would be willing to participate in the healing process together and I would like to hear your thoughts on how we can achieve this.
I know I cannot erase the hurts of the past. For those I ask for you forgiveness.
With all my love, forever
H
Ok. I agree with those changes. Thanks Wonka. Anyone else?
So tonight she invited me over for a late (10pm) dinner. I had the apology letter in my back pocket and after dinner she said she was going to bed so I was walking out to leave and she asked what was in my back pocket. She pulled it out and I said it's for her. She opened it and started to read it so I said wait - let me read it to you so I pulled out my typed copy and read it to her as she followed along with my handwritten copy.
After I finished she commented that it must have taken a lot of courage to write that. I said yes, and a lot of soul searching. She said she was going to read it again later. Then she asked me to stay for a glass of wine.
We talked. She said she needs to find herself. That over the 10 years she's been with me she felt she put her own self aside to conform to my life. She said that's been a pattern in her life and she needs to change that. She needs to be strong as her own self and only then can she be ready to be with me again. She's thinking of getting an apartment so she can get away from both me and her job.
She also reiterated her fear that my changes are only temporary, so I told her my changes are not to get her back, but are for me for the rest of my life. She said time will tell. I told her I understand her trepidation, and it's understandable after two previous relationships with alcoholics.
We spoke about me not holding her enough over the years and me always going straight for sex. And how that made her feel used and lonely. I told her that I held her a lot but she said it was not enough.
Then I told her I missed sleeping with her. I should not have said that. I was feeling vulnerable. She said it put a lot of pressure on her. I apologized. She said it made her feel guilty. Things were going so well until I blew it with that remark. I could kick myself. I backpedalled as much as I could but the horse was out of the barn so to speak.
I left on good terms though. We'll be painting together tomorrow. I'll try to keep the R talk to a minimum. Let it cool a bit.
All in all you did GREAT! You handled it well and it sounds like it was well received and a productive talk. Give yourself credit because it took a lot of courage today to hand her that letter and express yourself like that in writing.
I can relate to what your W was saying about getting lost in your life and not taking the time to get to know herself. I've learned through this process that I alone allowed that to happen. It wasn't H's fault. And if I continue to do it in the future should we R, it will be my own weakness and inability to care for myself that will allow it to happen, not H at all. Sometimes wives and mothers get wrapped up in the care of their family and put themselves on the back burner but NO ONE told them to do that. They sacrifice themselves and then become resentful that they did it.
Give her lots of space but lots of support. Hopefully, her journey to self discovery will give her the strength I have gained on a similar journey.
I also don't think you blew it by saying you missed sleeping with her. Maybe she didn't want to hear it but you were vulnerable and to me, that's not a bad thing. Perhaps just being more aware of your tendency to over share when you're feeling that way is a good thing to know about yourself. You live and you learn. It's not irreparable.
Congrats on giving a true and heartfelt apology. A great step.
Thanks Ss06 for the words of encouragement.
I want to believe that the A is over but I still get moments when I suspect that she's out seeing him. I think it's just paranoia from the old hurt. I just need to do thought stopping when I get those moments. It would help if she shared her phone with me but I feel that asking her to do so would be pressuring.
But I think that, as Sandi mentioned, she may be keeping her phone private as a statement of independence rather then a way to hide an A. If she was still in the A I think she would be acting a lot differently, like she did back in March.
She says our separation is a good thing because it allows her to find herself. If that's what it's going to take to eventually come back to me then I'll agree. I'm just afraid that it could take years and I'm lonely without her in the house.
Then again, I'm getting so used to her not being here that when she comes back I think it will be so different than I can remember that it will indeed be a new marriage. One that requires the work I've learned is needed to keep a M strong.
Yes, I'll give her lots of space and support. I guess that's the only way that she'll find her way, and hopefully that way leads back to our M.
I believe women use to be taught that W's are suppose to adapt to the H's life. Everything centered around him. When I was a kid, even the TV shows had the man as the center theme........shows like "Father Knows Best" and "Make Room for Daddy". It has taken a couple of generations to break free of the 50's image. Some of it has been for the better, but some should have stayed in place.
I think there are women who were raised with some of that old traditional background and later they were exposed and educated to the more liberated, modern female. I can see where it could cause a woman who is in your W's age bracket to question and re-evaluate a lot of things when she is so unhappy.
On one hand it sounds a little rediculus for a middle age woman to say she needs to "find herself" or she feels lost. There have been too many WAW's who have made that statement to ignore the message that they are in trouble. Look at how things have changed. It use to be almost commonplace to think it would be the man who would stray. But just look at the majority of threads on our board. For years it has been the women who are restless, confused, unhappy, having heart attacks b/c of too much pressure, and suffering MLC. I remember when you never associated a MLC with women. We women had menopause and men had the MLC. Now, women get equal rights. We get to have menopause and MLC! (Somehow, it doesn't seem equal.)
IDK if this is due to how our world has become with all the pressures, or the shift in society's viewpoints and the job description for our roles. I think it gets blurred for a lot of couples. I do think the institutions of marriage and family are in serious trouble......and I am definitely concerned about the women in our society.
No advice here, Peter. Just expressing some thoughts I've had for a long time.
She was brought up in a Muslim household where the abusive father left when she was 5 and then her victim-mentality mother parentified her and made her look after her older brother, younger sister and of course her mother. Also having to walk to her daddy's house where he lived with his new family and ask him for the support cheque. At 5 years old! Sexually assaulted a couple of times and unable to report to anyone for the shame it would bring the family. She never had a chance for post secondary education as she lived to work and serve her family. Then she married to get away from the family - unfortunately marrying an alcoholic wife-beater. That only lasted a couple of year but he pursued her for a decade including beatings and police restraining orders. Not exactly the Cleaver Family. And after a second relationship with an alcoholic and a resulting bout of stress related maladies, she finally came out on the other side a solid single mom with a brilliant daughter. When her daughter was in high school I came into the picture.
So not sure, Sandi, if your general sociological expressions have a lot of bearing on our sitch, not that I don't agree with your premise. MLC could indeed have a lot to do with it. But I think see does need to find herself as I don't think she had the luxury to be able to do that earlier in her life. So it's her time now. I'll give her the space she needs and support her however I can so she can find peace with herself. That will be a better platform on which to build a new M with me.
Peter,
I'm curious to know a bit more about your W.
Was there a recent death in her family or someone close to her? Some traumatic event that impacted W?
About 4 years ago when we finally moved in together after getting married she went on long term disability due to severe depression. She was diagnosed with complex PTSD. Also a dear friend of hers committed suicide - that didn't help. I moved my business into our home and worked from home. We were constantly fighting the insurance company to continue her LTD benefits which was a big stressor on top of everything else.
In Sept 2012 her mum came from overseas to live with us. Her relationship with her mum is conflicted due to their history. At the same time W & I were going to university (one course each) and working on buying the RH business. We bought the business IN Dec 2012 and then flew to South African to visit her family to see whether or not her mum should go back. It was a difficult trip as both her siblings are bipolar and it became obvious that her mum shouldn't return. So upon our return we started working on getting her mum to stay here, but then my W had to start running her new business which was difficult and quickly lead to burnout which I didn't recognize as I was excessively busy myself. That's when W started the A so she could get some peace and time away from everything.
Hey Pete can you give me a boost this morning ? Wife told me last night she got a lawyer and wants to leave and move in with OM
How long has your wife's A been going on, dawgy?
W spent the day at home here cooking. Then we lay on our bed together and watched TV - no cuddling. Then D27 came over and joined us, while we had a picnic on our bed. It was nice. Some quality time. Then she went back to the RH & invited me to follow.
We had a long talk over a glass of wine. She has reread my apology letter. She's looking at me a little differently, but still says she misses her old life (before she met me) and she described her activities from that time. She says she wants that back.
She said I didn't make spending time with her a priority. I agreed and said that I've opened up my schedule and I like my slower pace, and that I never want to go back to the frantic me that I was. She sees that.
I started talking about LL but 3 sentences into my explanation she said that's all garbage - you can't pigeonhole needs. She says I've read a few books and now I think I'm an expert. I argued that I'm just trying to learn and figure out how to make things better. I said we need to figure out a way to do that. She quietly agreed.
Yeah, this is like getting a skittish deer to eat from your hand. I just have to stay still and offer food for the heart. If I'm patient enough and don't jump out then maybe it'll happen.
It's still so difficult.
Peter,
I am with Sandi about the RH being a major stress on W and the marriage. Have you ever thought about broaching the subject to W and explore the option/possibility of jettisoning the RH altogether?
Like you said in your recent post, you need to make W feel like she's #1.
Hmmmm....I think this is a worthwhile convo to have with her.
We have talked about selling it. But we need to sell it with full occupancy. The live-in just resigned today so we have to find another. Yes, it's a major stressor, but then again W is proud of the drastic improvements she's made in the place. All her friends are amazed at her success, so in that sense it's good for her confidence. I think once we have full occupancy the profits will make her think twice. But still there are other businesses that are 9-5 M-F that are also profitable.
Yes we've have that convo.
Funny thing is she likes spending time with me now. We're spending quality time together daily. I'm getting like 15 hours a week of quality time with her, talking and laughing. I'm filling the love bucket. It was bone dry, so it'll take a while but I think it's starting to show a bit. She said yesterday that she didn't think she's be spending so much time with me, but she doesn't mind it now.
From January to now is an improvement. I'd say we're at a 4.5
She came to see me perform in my band last night. Stayed for the whole show and we spend time talking and walking between sets. She reached for me a couple of times, holding my hand. She was proud to call me her husband when speaking to strangers at the club. Afterwards she hugged & kissed me & said she loved me and drove back to RH. She sent me a text when she got back thanking me for the delightful evening. All in all very positive.
The slowness of this whole process is agonizing, but just seeing little glimmers of hope and movement toward R gives me the strength to carry on carrying on.
I hope my sitch is a beacon of hope to those who are in the place I was 6 months ago when I started DBing. And I truly thank all contributors to my sitch - you've all been a godsend. This site is such a positive influence.
Let him set the pace. If he gives you a high five, you don't get to hug him. If you go faster than him, he'll feel like you're not on his team anymore and you'll back track.
by jpLove
Found that on stacey9's thread. Great way to look at it jpLove!
I'm not following that advice and I should. When she gives me a kiss I go for another. When she sits beside me I put my arm around her. I should just let her kiss me and leave it at that. Or just let her sit beside me and get comfortable with that without me pawing at her. It's just so hard to do, as I want to show her my love, but I know her LL is not physical touch but rather conversation. So I need to keep that in mind and control my urges. Let her set the pace.
Peter,
Good job for exhibiting some self-awareness of how you interact with W given where she's currently at the moment. I know it is not easy to refrain from showing her your love!! I know, I know.
Go the Duggar way...see how they conduct their courtships?? Maybe do DB Lite right there with your W.
We had a long difficult talk tonight. She hasn't read the apology letters again. She thinks they are disingenuous - that I'm just saying what I think she wants to hear. Back to that incident with my ex 10 years ago, she just won't let it go. She says all her friends agree with her.
I asked her about my request for forgiveness and she says she's not at a place yet where she can grant that request.
So what do I do? I guess just keep on DBing. Be patient and supportive. And stop friggin asking for forgiveness. When she's ready she'll say it.
Yeah, too much stress from the RH. More flooding last week. The live-in quit. W is not handling the stress well. I tried to talk about personal goal setting but she just thinks I'm full of BS. She has no patience whatsoever and I need to have the patience of Job. Just doesn't seem fair.
She was having a stressful day so I suggested retail therapy, so we went shopping and out to dinner and then more shopping. Seems when we're doing those things together and talking and laughing everything is rosy. Getting into relationship discussions like last night is difficult and contentious.
So therefore: do what works. Avoid what doesn't.
We had a long difficult talk tonight. She hasn't read the apology letters again. She thinks they are disingenuous - that I'm just saying what I think she wants to hear. Back to that incident with my ex 10 years ago, she just won't let it go. She says all her friends agree with her.
I asked her about my request for forgiveness and she says she's not at a place yet where she can grant that request.
So what do I do? I guess just keep on DBing. Be patient and supportive. And stop friggin asking for forgiveness. When she's ready she'll say it.
Maybe she'll say it or maybe she'll just do it. How was forgiveness modeled in
her childhood? Did she ever see it? Do you know what it would look like? Can you be okay with moving as the marriage vows say, "from this day forward" and NOT have to hear her say "I forgive you"? If not, why not?
Also fwiw I think the fastest way to cool a R is by taking its temperature too often. Why all the R talk and insistence that she read a letter again, and why repeat the request for forgiveness? Do you feel she owes it to you? Do you see that forgiveness is for HER, not so much you? Can you forgive yourself?
Yeah, too much stress from the RH. More flooding last week. The live-in quit. W is not handling the stress well. I tried to talk about personal goal setting but she just thinks I'm full of BS.
Can you see why that suggestion coming from you might come off as condescending? Or as a "fix it" solution, instead of just listening to her?
How does she view the way you handle stress? Does she admire it? If so, she'll probably ask you about it someday but if not, then I'd start there. IOW, model a calm demeanor in the face of stress without ignoring it, and go from there.
She has no patience whatsoever and I need to have the patience of Job. Just doesn't seem fair.
See if any of the questions above bring you any clarity. Good luck.
Thanks for the probing questions 25yrs. I don't think that apologies or forgiveness was ever modelled in her childhood. Her family doesn't talk like that. She's the only one in the family to say it like it is. Everyone else lives an eminence front.
She's still not sorry for the A. She says she was lonely in our M for years and that's why she went outside to get that need filled - that she kept asking me to spend time with her but I was too busy to comply. So she eventually gave up and walked away.
Now I've changed my life. I've dropped my busyness. I've calmed down. She sees it but is afraid it won't last.
But yeah, I've got to stop taking the temp. Stop the R talk. We spent about 8 hours together today and no R talk. At one point she invited me to lie on the bed beside her. I did. But then I lost control and leaned over and kissed her. She said "relax". So I just lay down again beside her. It's so hard to control myself. I need to let her set the pace. So that she feels that I'm on her team and not an opponent or pursuer.
I also realize that the forgiveness she may grant me is not for me but for her. So she needs to arrive at that at her own pace and in her own way.
Can I forgive myself? I'm working on that. I find myself still justifying my actions - not truly taking responsibility for how I didn't meet her needs and just sponged up all the love she was giving me. I believe that's my next self-improvement project.
She's just so beautiful and I'm so much in love with her that the distance between us hurts. I really need to work on my self-control.
Thanks 25yrs. Good 2x4. I needed that.
Thanks for the probing questions 25yrs.
I don't think that apologies or forgiveness was ever modelled in her childhood. Her family doesn't talk like that. She's the only one in the family to say it like it is. Everyone else lives an eminence front.
Then it's fair to say she's overcome a deficit from her family of origin, and learned something very valuable, and brave to do. Wow, Good for her!
She's still not sorry for the A. She says she was lonely in our M for years and that's why she went outside to get that need filled - that she kept asking me to spend time with her but I was too busy to comply. So she eventually gave up and walked away.
I understand this^^^. I Understand why this would bother you.
Some people won't get why I say the apology is Not key here, but I have a theory about it, which I concede is probably unfairly sexist, okay?
(But hey, sexism works for me...I mean, when it works for me, like when it's time to take out the trash in the dark, or to GO & figure out what made that scary noise downstairs at 3 am...etc 
)
But seriously, when it comes to affairs, generally speaking, women tie a lot more emotion into A's than some men when they have affairs.
For whatever reason, affairs of wives tend to end marriages more often than affairs of husbands. Maybe part of that is that men can't handle the hit to their pride as well, OR can't forgive as well, or let go, etc.
BUT maybe a part of it is b/c affairs for women, in general, tend to mean more emotionally to wives than to h's, and thus they tend to threaten the marriage more. OR both.
Usually the wife having an affair reports much less satisfaction inside her m to begin with, and thus it is more fragile than the marriages of some men who have A's.
You certainly don't have to agree, but do you understand what i"m saying?
Your wife felt justified with her affair, and she still does. This is upsetting in part b/c you fear she'll do it again, 7 if she's not remorseful, you suspect it's more likely to reoccur. I get that.
But the thing is, you have some "insurance" against her repeating the affair;
IF TWO things happen, neither of which require an apology from her.
Those 2 factors are that --
1) you have to forgive her, Not b/c she "deserves" forgiveness, but b/c your marriage cannot survive the A if you don't, AND
2) you have to believe your wife is unlikely to repeat the affair.
You play a large role in that choice of hers. FWIW Every happy long term marriage includes CHUNKS of forgiveness in it. Lots of letting go of the past.
Your wife has given you a ton of information about what, specifically, she needs from you in order for her to be happy inside the marriage. (FWIW Her marital dissatisfaction sounds sincere & believable to me.)
So I doubt you'll again blow off her request for more time together, & I doubt you'll make your career the priority over her again. Am I on target with that?
I think you'll be far more communicative with her to see how you both are doing in the marriage. I think you'll both take steps asap, if either of you feels taken for granted. Assuming that you communicate better than before, and prioritize better than before, you can survive this.
But you both will eventually have to do as most vows tell us to do, and go "from this day forward". Which means stop obsessing about the affair and start being in the moment, fully present in the present.
^^^maybe that's your insurance against her ever doing this again.
So you'd know before hand that your spouse's needs were not being met, (or your needs were not being met) -- And you would act on that information, accordingly.
So her needs and your needs would be met, with communication and effort on both parts. Correct?
Does this^^ make sense?
Now I've changed my life. I've dropped my busyness. I've calmed down.
She sees it but is afraid it won't last.
Just keep doing the "math" of it.
Consistent change on your part + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
But yeah, I've got to stop taking the temp. Stop the R talk. We spent about 8 hours together today and no R talk. At one point she invited me to lie on the bed beside her. I did.
that ^^ is a positive. She CAN be around you in close proximity. (Some WAS's can't!) So That's an intimate moment of close space, but was NOT an invitation for more intimacy. But then I lost control and leaned over and kissed her.
Okay you may think this^^ is a small thing and maybe it is. But it strikes me as unappealing b/c the way you are wording it might be accurate; that is, you "lost control" -- and that's weak and unattractive. Surely you COULD control yourself don't you think? Learn to pick up on her signals more. Let her guide you more and then be ready to take the lead if that's what it looks like.
How has she recently been with regard to you taking the initiative with sex? Were you always/never the one to initiate? Did she ever comment on that? if so, what was her opinion? She really strikes me as someone who WILL give you information if you seek it out, and that's a real advantage for you.
She said "relax". So I just lay down again beside her. It's so hard to control myself. I
need to let her set the pace. So that she feels that I'm on her team and not an opponent or pursuer.
Yes...be clear that you DO desire her -- but you are a man in control of himself and his emotions, and NOT trying to be in control of anyone else.
I also realize that the forgiveness she may grant me is not for me but for her. So she needs to arrive at that at her own pace and in her own way.
^^^Good insight. I read this (below) long ago and love the wisdom herein... it may help you to recall it when you are trying to forgive her or yourself...
"Holding too anger, to punish someone else....is like lighting yourself on fire,
to get smoke in their eyes."Can I forgive myself? I'm working on that. I find myself
still justifying my actions - not truly taking responsibility for how I didn't meet her needs and just sponged up all the love she was giving me.
Wow, I think the more you "handle this"^^, the better your odds at getting thru it all. It also makes sense to me.
it's a brave insight to grasp, and harder to do when you are hurt. So, my hat is off to you. Really, good for you.
The real journey in life is an inward one, so you are definitely digging deep, and bravely, as you must.I believe that's my next self-improvement project.
She's just so beautiful and I'm so much in love with her that the distance between us hurts.
I really need to work on my self-control.
Thanks 25yrs. Good 2x4. I needed that.
Having passion for your wife is great; having a desperate 'need' for her, is a demand and is not great.
Do you understand the difference? IF so, show her the difference. Without words...just be.
Just show interest and detachment and you KNOW I'm going to hammer GAL again.
You just cannot detach without GAL and you can't be i the moment or hide your lack of self control (til you really have it) without detachment.
So it's GAL ----to Detach---to show changes---and Exert self control ---to be attractive to your spouse as you both "relax" around each other, and as you get more comfortable around each other.
As her need for and love language of quality time together is met, (and whatever other need she has) she'll become more comfortable around you, and then you two can build on that. Both interacting and communicaing clearly and as you model for her the changes you made, and speaking more in her love lavage, she will likely follow suit...
Make sense?
Yes, 25yrs. Thanks for the excellent feedback. I'll take it to heart and act on it.