I was here in late 2005/early 2006. My H left me when I was 2 months pregnant. After reading DB and religiously practicing its techniques, he was back when I was 5/6 months pregnant. With a mistress who was 2 months pregnant.
I didn't push therapy; that was my fault. Though we talked about the A, I didn't push for more details than I felt I could handle. And then I turned into the loyal pit-bull lover I am, standing beside my man and fighting, right alongside him.
Though we talked about the breakdown of our marriage, we never really delved into it. I didn't get answers I should have pushed for, for the well-being of our future together.
And we did ourselves a huge disservice. Because here we are again ...
5 days after my 10th wedding anniversary - and after my usually-loving, attentive, selfless H showered me with gifts and love - he said something disrespectful to me. He's been SO respectful toward me since the incident in 2005 that that's all it took for me to know he was seeing someone else ... again.
So I confronted him, without a shred of evidence at the time. And he spilled.
That was Feb. 19. Late at night.
He, of course, lied and said the relationship was "text-only." I didn't take him for his word, because I'm a seasoned pro at this point, but I quickly opened my "DB toolbox" that was still so familiar from 2005. He admitted he was intrigued by her and wanted to get to know her better. Almost like a robot, I told him that to work on our marriage ... again ... he'd need to cut off communication with her and that I knew how hard that would be for him. I validated his feelings for the OW - who is married herself - and told him I would have patience through the grieving period of losing this "new love." I even told him I knew how it felt to have to mourn the loss of a love.
The following day, he turned ugly, just like he did in 2005, justifying his behavior by blaming me and saying he'd been miserable for 10 years.
The kids and I (I have two Ds, 16 and 17, from a previous relationship, and H and I share a S7 and D2) packed up and went to my sister's for a few days until things cooled down a little.
I let H know the day I was coming home. He met us here, and he played with the kids then met me outside for a beer. I told him that while I was away, I had sent e-mails out to former colleagues (I was wildly successful in my field for 10 years before having my S and becoming a SAHM), and that I had a freelance job offer within 10 minutes of sending the e-mail. As soon as I said that, H grew almost crazed. He couldn't keep his hands off me. I asked him what the heck had come over him, and he said he didn't know. We made love that night, and it was amazing (as usual for us).
The next night, I knew I needed to know the extent of his relationship with OW and that H wasn't being honest. So I did what I needed to do. Come to find out, the relationship had turned physical (which I was smart enough to assume to begin with). They'd known each other for all of 2.5 months. And they're already telling each other how much they love each other and sending photos of their (our) children to one another.
Because I have "experience" in this (ok, ok, so I did good in some ways but screwed the pooch in others), I didn't beg, plead or go through wedding photos or tell my husband how much I adore him. I just beat the crap out of his phone with a meat tenderizer ... but only after I had sent myself screenshots of several texts from just the past few days between the two lovers.
My H, still thinking I was fooled by his promises that it was a "text-only relationship," was so confused ... until I picked up my own phone and started reading the texts between them. In the most recent one, they talked about having sex in MY bed. That's how vulgar their texts were. It was, like, porn-quality texts. Disgusting. Gives me nightmares.
My H met her at a grocery store, where she works. He asked for her phone number. He begged me not to approach her husband AFTER I called the grocery store and talked to her manager, asking about the store's policy on employees handing out phone numbers to shoppers ... especially MARRIED shoppers.
Yeah. I took a hard-nosed approach this time, unlike in 2005 when I was pregnant and weak and vulnerable. And it's been a longggggg month.
H stayed here for 2 weeks after I found out the details about the A. He turned in his burn phone, with me at the phone store with him, and put himself back on the family plan, which is in my name. He told me I could check into his activities any time I wanted to. At this time, he still admitted he thought of OW but said he understood my demand that as long as he lived in the same house with me, he wouldn't disrespect me by continuing to text her.
(I should add: My H is the most amazing, hands-on, loving, gentle, attentive father in the world. He's usually the same kind of H. But he has SNAPPED ... twice now ... and becomes almost demonic. Like, seriously ... infatuated with pentagrams and 666 and flames in hell, etc. when he snaps like this, which he's done twice.)
After he turned his phone in, we stayed home together, even sleeping in the same bed, for about 2 weeks. We took the kids on a trip a few hours away, and while things were awkward ... and he acknowledged he was "weighing his options" where S/D was concerned ... we made it through.
The following day, though, one of my teenage girls said something that flipped his switch (he still likes to think of himself as the victim, apparently). An hour later, the little kids, H and I were all lying on the couch, watching a movie. I said SOMETHING that ripped into him (and I WISH I remembered what I said, but I don't). He popped up and yelled, "Because I don't want to f***in BE with you anymore!!!" S7, clearly shaken, jumped into my lap and started crying. My chin was on the, uh, couch. H turned to S7 and said, "What do you want me to do, buddy? I can stay here, but it'd take a long time for me to learn to love your momma again."
And I snapped. All my "tools" flew out the window. I kicked him out. For that brief second, I knew I had to teach my son, who is home alllll the time bc I homeschool him, how a woman deserves to be treated. I would not allow the man who has showed me SO much respect for as long as our son has been alive to disrespect me like that. (It was S7 I was pregnant with the first time H left me). And I realized, when my H snapped, that CLEARLY he had not ended his A as he told me he had.
Since he left on March 3, things have been a complete roller coaster. Again. At first, he wouldn't have anything to do with me. Then he couldn't keep his hands off me. He's hot and cold.
And then the BIG day: I found out, 5 days after he left, he had purchased a hotel room. 2 adults. King-size bed. So I bought flowers and a card and gave them to the folks at check-in for the "happy couple." Told the check-in folks I was a matchmaker and had hooked the two of them up and this was their first night together as a couple, so I wanted to leave them a gift of good cheer.
And then, knowing OW was occupied with H for the night, I paid a visit to OW's H. I had known about the A for 2.5 weeks and had respected my H's wishes that I leave OW's H out of it ... but I went back on that once it was clear they intended to continue the A. I'm a SAHM. 4 children. My whole world has crumbled to its foundation. Why should SHE be given a free pass to keep her M ... with one D and a S from a previous marriage ... and get my H on the side?
Her H was, strangely, gentle and calm. Naive. But he e-mailed me a couple times and finally told me not to contact him anymore bc he was going to try to repair his M. He's out of work right now, and she's the breadwinner of the family. He's in school, so I think he's willing to let his wife do whatever until he's out of school in December.
OW and H are still texting. I only know bc my son, during visitation with his dad, plays on his dad's phone and sees the texts coming in. I try to tell him that mommy doesn't need or want to know what daddy's up to - all he needs to know is that, no matter what's going on, mommy and daddy love him SO much and we'll ALL be okay - but he still sees the texts and comes home telling me about "Daddy's girlfriend texting."
I have immediately thrown myself into the "DB rules." Chopped my hair off. I'm throwing mascara on and earrings in daily. Painting my nails. Running again. Feeling more self-confident than I have in years. Fortunately (or unfortunately), threats are knocking on my door. And I know there are "easy fixes" on standby to help me emotionally - and quickly - "get over" a H who has treated me so incredibly poorly ... twice.
I'm in a whirlwind. Out of control with no safety net. I don't know which end is up. I don't know if I want this M or if it's a lost cause. He's done this TWICE now. I believe in second chances. But I've never been challenged with giving 3rd or 4th chances. Don't get me wrong: I love my H DEARLY. I adore him. I have gone to hell and back for and with him already. And, Lord knows, I'd be willing to do it again ... but THIS time with professional help to pinpoint the crack that's in our marriage that clearly I'm not perceptive enough to identify on my own.
But he's not at a place where he wants to completely sever his A. And apparently she's secretly still talking to H even while telling HER H that she's "working on the M." My H says she's "taking things slowly" because she saw how H left me. And H says, "I told her not to leave like I did." He also says, "We might hook up down the road."
But now, H is starting to say things to me that make me think he's "coming around." Things like, "I know I royally screwed up," and, when I thank him for continuing to provide for the kids and me: "It's the least I could do for everything I've done." He came over tonight to work on my car. Then had a friend (the ones he's living with, who's a mutual friend) come over to help him move more of his garage things out.
But he's telling all his friends and family he's done. He was miserable for 10 years.
He vacillates between telling ME I'm amazing (an amazing mom, easy on the eyes and fun to have sex with are among his top compliments ... and he says I'm every man's DREAM and he has NO idea why he doesn't "want that anymore") and telling me he's been miserable living with me for 10 years.
He thinks I'm controlling. Same complaint as last time. And when he came home last time, he said: "I feel miserable when I feel you're controlling me, but I've learned it's not control .... it's that you want to protect me from making stupid decisions that eventually hurt me."
So here I am again. Stronger this time. MUCH stronger. (Maybe TOO strong?) Less vulnerable. Less weak. But still in love with a man who has now hurt me - TWICE.
I'll take my responsibility in the breakdown. H works 2 jobs. I'm home ALLLLLL day with two kids and afternoons with all 4 kids. I even slept with the babies because H snores so loud. H and I were working on getting the kids in their own rooms when all this went down. The 2 weeks after I found out about the A but only knew it as a text-only A, we had put the kids in their rooms and slept together. And we made love almost every night.
And then he disrespected me in front of our S7, and I made that split-second decision.
I don't know if this M is worth my time and effort again. I love him so much that I think I could possibly work to repair what we never repaired before. I know my life would be "easier," financially, with him in it. I was a single mom of 2 when I met him in 2002. Now I'll be a single mom of 4. And, for now, I have no income besides what he's kind enough to provide. And he's providing, working his first 40 hours a week and handing me his paychecks. He's keeping income from his second job - almost full-time - for himself. And I am validating him and telling him how appreciative I am that he continues to provide for the kids and me that way during these times ... because THAT is pretty selfless of him (and it's also how my H USUALLY is).
I just don't know if his cheating is a result of something that has been broken in our M since before he did it the first time (and we never fixed it) ... or if it's a character-flaw.
My friends and family are astonished because he seems to be so fixated on me all the time. My friends say they look up to our relationship so much because we still seem madly in love, 10 years after being married. And we are. We still slip away from the house to have sex ... in the back of a car, when we have to, or in his barn when the kids are occupied with relatives inside. Or on the couch after all the kids are asleep at night.
There are A LOT more details. But this is enough to digest for now, especially because the new format apparently makes it more difficult for posts from "new" people to show up.
I'd value any input and would be happy to divulge further information or answer questions. And I thank you in advance for the backbone I know you will provide in the days and weeks ... and months ... ahead.
Wow. I'm speechless.
Starsky
Sigh. Yeah. I know, Starsky.
I'm hardly ever stumped. I'm usually the one people approach for "words of wisdom."
I mean, at THIS point, I have no real choices except to continue focusing on the kids and me. I've been GAL; I literally almost felt relieved immediately after the B, when people started jumping in to help with the kids, freeing me to leave the house a little again. So my happiness in GAL is actually quite genuine.
I swore, when all this came out, that my H has a mental disorder. His brother is diagnosed bipolar, so I became convinced that's what's afflicting H, too. But the more I read, the more I see that EVERY LBS thinks their spouse is crazy. Lol. And, well, maybe they are.
I just hate to have so many dangling strings. So many unanswered questions.
He keeps stopping by here during his lunch break to move more things out of his garage. Last week, he seemed more "approachable," kinder. He would walk into our home. It was awkward, yes. But we muddled through that for the kids' sake, I guess. Yesterday when he picked up/dropped off the kids? Today at lunch? Not so much. He stayed outside today even after he was finished packing.
I asked him if he wanted lunch, and he accepted. He brushed up against me on the way inside, but I'm not sure if that was intentional or not. He's done it intentionally before, and this time I couldn't tell. I don't even know if I care, honestly. He even ate lunch outside with D2.
He has a hard time looking me in my eyes, which I guess I understand. Our teenage girls are RAGING mad and overwhelmingly sad. They were abandoned as babies by their biological dad, so this has set some pretty negative feelings in motion. They're old enough to understand how deep the betrayal to their mom is, too.
He has said, "I'm sorry." But that was early on after the B. I don't think he's sorry for the A; I think the proof is in the pudding on that, and he's obviously still talking to OW and considering having a future with her in it. I think he's just sorry he was caught. They were apparently most recently texting about OW's D11 being upset because HER daddy wouldn't be coming home that night. Which I DID find a little curious, if I'm being honest.
The fact that my H is thinking of his future with OW in it - and that he refuses to end the A and now justifies it because we are physically S - is what hurts most. I know love, in a relationship, is never enough. But we still loved each other. In 2005, his conscience made him leave before things got crazy-physical with OW. This time, he carried on the A for 2 months - 1 month hot-and-heavy - all while coming home and telling me ILY, making things for me, buying things for me, etc. He and OW were even texting about how she needed to "be careful" because she needed to make her M last for her D. Then, she'd say she might leave him sooner than was planned. They were hot-and-heavy for ONE MONTH and already making plans to be together.
There's a part of me that wishes I would have never said anything to OW's H and just let the relationship run its course and die. My actions just prolonged the natural course of things. Ugh.
Like I said, I don't know if he has a personality disorder or if he just deserves an Oscar. I DO know that he's said even though he beat the crap out of himself every time he went to see OW, "somehow I went through with it anyway. It's done now, no turning back." It's almost like he doesn't just set fire to a bridge that would lead him back home, he lights it up with dynamite. He even said in 2005 that he knew all along, even while we were S for 4 months, that he'd want to come home. I think that's probably a thought that his entered his mind this time, too. But it's almost like he is making SURE he leaves no semblance of a bridge to cross back over even if he eventually wants to. He has asked me: "What do I have to do to make you not give a f--- about me anymore? I'm a loser in your eyes - get rid of me!" I just calmly validate, reminding him that his health and happiness is of paramount importance to me because he's, at the very least, the father of my children.
I KNOW I need to be less focused on him and more on myself. But right now, I'm journaling and laying the groundwork for anyone who might see and have any words of wisdom to share.
I should also mention, just for background, that I did go see a L (a friend) about 1.5 weeks ago. He told me to "hurry up and wait" and do nothing to tick-off H in the meantime because the amount of support he's paying now is more than the courts would order if I pursue S.
Where I live, we have a mandatory 12-month S before D. H was anxious to help with the paperwork for S/D. But he hasn't mentioned my L visit, or asked about it, since.
He tends to lose his cool if I indicate that OW is probably not finished hearing from me yet. So I've dropped saying anything to him about that completely. I just don't mention her, or the A, at all right now. I just slap on my mascara, my earrings, some figure-enhancing clothes (lol) and a big ol' fat smile. Occasionally, I even chuckle and joke when he's around. Ya know, just having the time of my life ...
Ugh.
I'm trying not to rock the boat while I also detach, GAL and watch for signs of him possibly coming around ... just in case that eventually makes a crap to me; right now, my give-a-crap meter is gettin' kind of low. The only thing I have left for him is love.
Do I work on this M? Do I cut my losses and go? I'm only 36. I've only been out of work for 7.5 years. If I work on the M and H eventually comes around - and IF we'd be willing for the hard work that fixing this mangled mess would entail - what happens if he does it again in 10 years? Then, I'm 46. I will have been out of work for 18 years. The positive side to that scenario is that my little kids would be older, too. My S would be graduated. My D would be a teenager.
I'm wayyyyy projecting and overthinking this now. Clearly.
This is a crappy place to be in.
Train,
Anyone can cheat. Some folks do it once, some never, some are serial cheaters.
If we take the "an affair is a symptom of other M problems" road, what would you say were the breakdowns in your M? Clearly, undivided attention stands out (your H working two jobs would negate the needed time together). What else?
You're a DB veteran, so that's good news. I would also recommend "His Needs, Her Needs" for you to read. It helps spell out where "love" comes from, and what causes it to come and go in a M. It definitely gave me a roadmap back into a better R with my W.
It sounds to me like your H is trying his best to cake-eat. In his experience, he can have his fun and you will be right there when the A blows up- just like last time. Clearly you two didn't learn from the first A, so this time will have to be different. I think your tough love approach is excellent in this case. He must see that the safety net that he thought was under him, isn't this time. It sounds like you've got it right-if he wants back in the M it's either under the conditions for a great M, or none at all.
It's always good to hear a strong (dare I say "ballsy") female voice on these forums.
-hs
HopefulStill, thank you. Seriously. Thanks.
I'll take "ballsy." Lol!
I have two other posts that haven't posted yet, so forgive me if I repeat anything; I forget all I wrote in the last ones.
I think, first, H and I got into a pattern of making our M all about our kids, and we would squeeze in time for US just once a week, if that. Most times, when we got together, we talked only about work and kids. (What else is there to talk about, really?!??) We're both very attentive parents, both doting, etc. I'm more a disciplinarian (I assume you already figured - ha). With me being a SAHM and homeschooling my S, soooo much of my life revolves around the kids.
He picked up the second job in September. So we haven't seen much of him since then. (BTW, when he first took the 2nd job, it was supposed to be only 2 nights a week and Saturdays. He started going 4-5 nights a week and Saturday because they appreciate him sooo much and applaud how "innovative" he is. This will be important to remember a little later in what I post.) But when he's home, he's usually spending his time building Legos with S7 or playing in the dollhouse with our D2.
I also think the same problems linger from last time. My self-esteem is generally pretty good. I mean, it has taken a little hit with me feeling like a couch potato all the time as a SAHM. But I throw a workout in a time or three a week to make myself feel a little better. I'm a pretty confident person by-nature, though. Not overly confident. I just know what makes me good and decent and lovable. That's all.
My H's self-esteem is dirt poor. He constantly needs accolades and praise. He's definitely a "words of affirmation" guy.
I TRY. I really do. Even though it feels so unnatural for me.
But, for instance, just before the A was exposed, we exchanged words over his old bike-riding trophies. I think trophies are HIDEOUS and dust-collectors. The gold color - and the ugly primary-colored foil crap on them - irks the snot out of me. And they're from, like, AGES ago. He is constantly putting them in the most obvious places. I won awards for my work at my job. He keeps putting my awards up on a wall in our office. And I keep taking them down. They're 10 years old! I don't need a constant reminder of my past successes in life; I carry those in my heart. But he's desperate for attention and praise. He's proud of himself for things he did 20 freaking years ago. So he wants his trophies on display for allllll the world to see.
Looking back, the spat over the trophies is stupid and trivial. I get it. I should have worked with him on that instead of telling him his hideous years-old trophies would be better suited in his garage, where he spends much of his time working on bikes, cars etc. But that might give you a real-life example of how we interact when we disagree ... and probably one of the main ways we're different ... and probably one of the main reasons our M breaks down.
He needs to work on his self-esteem. I need to work on complimenting him more and truly taking time to HEAR what he's saying and where he's coming from. He needs to step up some, and I need to step BACK some.
That's another thing: I'm a talker. I hash things out right when they start to bother me. That's how I was raised. His family is different. They're non-confrontational. Dad wears the belt and Mom keeps her mouth shut. My "ballsy-ness" is one thing my H says he LOVES about me. (Until he leaves; THEN, he hates that about me.) But sometimes I think it makes him feel like less of a man to have a W who is confident and "ballsy." And I should keep that in mind, too, and let him lead once in a while. It would take great faith for me to do that, especially when he doesn't have the best track-record of making great decisions. But that's something I could do. Maybe having that "lead" would help him make better decisions eventually. I dunno.
He keeps stopping by the house to move more things out; he came by at lunch today and - in case I didn't mention this in an earlier post - I offered to warm up leftovers for lunch. He hesitated, then accepted. He stayed outside and ate outside, then thanked me when he brought his plate back in. Some days, he seems comfortable. Other days he avoids me. Typical for a WAS. I'm the water and just let it roll off my back no matter WHO he's being at any given moment.
Just a few weeks ago, he was here at lunch and ate with the kids and me. He got up and gave me a one-armed hug, then started massaging my neck and kissed my cheek. That was the first time he touched me since he left. Then, I mentioned something sarcastic about OW a day or two later, and he lashed out. He thinks I'm "going after her," and that pushes his buttons - bad. So I immediately decided I'd never mention anything about her with sarcasm again. He's been nicer since I have been more tight-lipped. But he also hasn't touched me since. He barely looks me in my eyes. He said I am being a "sarcastic b!tch" and that I need to stop going after OW. And he said he doesn't want to send me "mixed signals."
I think he *IS* a mixed signal.
This roller coaster is making me a little nauseous. And the ride has just started. Ugh.
Okay, cake-eating is a new term for me. What is it? If I'm assuming properly, it's a person who wants his cake and to eat it, too? Now to ME, that would mean that he's dipping a little into both pools, yes? I can't say he's doing that so much. He really does avoid me like the plague right now when he's here. And he's only here out of necessity, to move more things. Or to pick up/drop off the kids.
I don't want to encourage this "cake-eating." Because even though cake-eating SOUNDS good, I'm thinking - based on context clues - it's not a good thing in this case.
I'm on the fence about asking him if he'd like lunch the few times he pops in here. On the one hand, that could come across as me pursuing and letting him "cake-eat." On the other hand, it's a gesture of kindness I can give during these otherwise rough, stressful times. And considering he's still giving me both of his main-job paychecks, offering him leftovers is probably the least I can do. Lol.
I know I am inundating this thread with information right now, but while I'm still in moderation mode - and while I'm thinking of things - I'm just going to keep truckin' ...
I haven't exactly gone dark with H. But I barely text him. When I do, it's usually about the kids, or it's something I know he'll find interesting or amusing (but that's maybe once or twice a week). As I've explained (likely ad nauseam), I'm rather upbeat when he stops by here.
He hasn't mentioned S or D since he knew I had my L appt. I'm thinking I already mentioned that.
But here's the rub:
I REALLY don't have the desire to pursue him or to talk about the R. At all. I don't want to. In fact, he told me a couple weeks ago that he's been "writing about his last 10 years" and would like to give me a copy so I can better understand his decision to leave. First, he's not a writer, so that's already weird. I politely, but firmly, told him a big fat "no thanks." It hadn't even been a week since I busted him and OW planning a rendezvous at the hotel. I don't believe enough time and distance separates his affair (duh ... it's ongoing) and any epiphany he may think he's had over why he's supposedly been miserable in our M for 10 years. And that's what I told him.
Am I curious? Yeah. But do I think it would help me to read his diarrhea? Not one iota. So, yeah. No, thank you.
Here's what I *am* curious about, though:
Though I DID give H the option of staying here at first and working on the M - if AND ONLY IF he ended his A - I am the one who has pursued the S/D. I am the one who filled out the paperwork and met with a L. I'm the one who took the initial steps to end this M. I told him, a few weeks after I initiated it, that I had half-a-mind to stop and have him pay to file and handle all the ridiculous paperwork to do it.
He half-heartedly said if I was "done trying" (I think he meant trying to work on the paperwork and get in to see my L) that he'd "handle it from here."
He knows I still met with the L.
I haven't mentioned to him, since the initial BD, that I would even *think* to consider working on our M if he would agree to IC and/or MC. I also have not told him that I hate the idea of D because of how it destroys families, changes children ... and costs a bloody fortune.
As far as he knows, I'm moving in the S/D direction boldly ... and the next written communication he (and, likely, OW) will receive from me will be S papers.
So I missed a step in DB. I didn't tell him what I want. Well, I told him what I wanted at the time, in the heat of the moment, but I've changed my mind (and verbalized it) a few times. Lol. But I haven't told him what I want now that things are settled a tad.
I'm sort of feeling I should just let sleeping dogs lie right now. I should just keep working my "steps" for the kids and me and let him feel the dust I'm kicking up.
But then I think: My H has crappy self-esteem. He likes to be chased, I think. (Even the very day after the hotel-chaos, he came over to work on my car, and we split a 12-pack and actually laughed more together than we have in a while. I know that sounds really, really ... really ... odd. But it was almost as if the confrontation from the night before ... the barrage of information I sent him (all that I had neatly stockpiled and waited for just. the. right. moment. to fire off) ... relieved us both. Everything was in the open. All the cards were on the table.
There's a part of me that thinks, even as mad as he was at "all the sh!t I was pulling" the night before (his words), I also think he loved the fire in me. He hasn't seen that in me in quite some time. He loved and (somehow, maybe) valued that I was willing to fight - and fight BIG - for him. I actually didn't do any of it FOR him. I did it because my ego is a big, green monster that I had a hard time suppressing that night, and I wanted to show them that they have to get up a lot earlier in the morning to pull one over on ME. But, you know, the struggling-self-esteem-H sees what he wants to see, soooooo I think he looked at it, even if only subconsciously, as me "fighting for what's mine" ....
Good lawd that's a lot of explaining to get to a couple little questions:
Should I just keep doing what I'm doing? (I'm not initiating contact. I'm not snooping. I'm cheerful and purty and a little mysterious when he sees me.) Or should I chase him a little, since that's what he seems to be about? (OW is texting him now about her D11 being upset, etc. Bound to become a wake-up call to H soon that the hot, steamy side of that R is probably over, for the most part, and good ol' family-responsibility reality is setting in. *I* don't even text him when our kids are whining - duh.) Fact is: I don't even KNOW how to effectively "chase" somebody; is that bad?? And should I tell him what I wish for? Or just ignore that step all together ... mainly because I don't KNOW what I wish for right now?
I mean, I would like for us to wait until *at least* June (3 months after he left) to even talk about S/D again. I think our minds will be a little clearer from the B *he* dropped with the A ... and the B *I* exploded with the hotel/information "purging" from 1.5 weeks ago. Should I tell him that? Or let sleeping dogs lie?
As an aside, I'm supposed to be taking the kids to the beach end of April. Since he'd be giving up 3 days with them for me to go, I told him he could come to the beach to hang with them, which would free me up to spend a day on the beach, relaxing, alone. He said he would probably take me up on that and might actually plan to stay a night.
That's progress, I think, whether we work to repair our M or choose to become co-parents.
At the end of the day, what I really want is for us to (as quickly as possible) reach a "new normal," mainly for the kids' sakes. Fake it 'til we make it, at least. I'm realistic enough to know that he won't always leave his car running in the driveway when he picks up/drops off the kids. He won't always feel the need to text me before he calls so I don't answer the phone. He won't always avoid me like the plague.
We don't HAVE to end up together. But we do have to get along and co-parent. I'm ready to treat him like a co-parent. He's apparently not quite there.
And one more question: what kind of man - no matter how amazing he's been in the past - walks off from his W, leaving her to shepherd and lead and protect an entire family?? Four freaking kids?!??
And what kind of woman chooses to still love him and offer him leftovers for lunch?
Ugh. The roller coaster continues ...
Today was the first day in a few days that H didn't stop by at lunch to pack more things. So I thought to myself: Awesome. My mind needs a break from hearing from/seeing him. I'll have a day that I can rest my mind and not have to put on my validating, smiling game-face.
Wrong.
He didn't call the kids last night, which is unusual, but I didn't think too much about it. Though he didn't show up here at lunch today, he texted on his lunch break, letting me know his car is having the same troubles as mine, and he was up until the wee-hours of the morning, working on his. He asked how my car was running since he worked on it.
I told him I hate he's having to spend so much time on our cars and that he's taken excellent care of them, but everything naturally gets old and beat-up with age. He replied: "Yeah, just like us." I wrote: "Yep. People, too. They're just not as easy to repair, I guess. Lol."
I am fully aware I can't read into ANYTHING right now. And I've got my mind in such a place that I don't want to lose my stamina. I don't WANT to think of "what-ifs." But I get a sneaking suspicion, with some of the comments he's been making and the ways he's been behaving, that his "wheels are spinning" now. And let's not forget I've been here before.
Here's what my head says and/or knows:
1. The affair has been exposed; I know about it, and so does OW's H.
2. My H - even in his current state of mind - is likely feeling quite a bit of guilt over wrecking not just one but TWO families.
3. Now that the A is exposed, I highly doubt H and OW's texts are the full-blown, porn-like texts they were. Now - and judging even by the text S7 saw on H's phone from OW about her D11 "being upset" - their texts are likely more about struggles and troubles.
That's probably making them re-think just how "miserable" they thought their Ms were in the first place.
Andddddd eureka. That's the anatomy of an affair. It's also why I wholeheartedly believe in exposing them.
Now, before anyone jumps down my throat about "being worried about what he's doing/thinking instead of being worried about myself," please hesitate to do that for at least one moment.
We alllllll think endlessly about our spouses - and their motives and their mentality - in the first weeks following the BD.
How this is helpful to me is that it helps me think ahead and develop my strategy for ME (even, though, yes, there's a great deal of projection and guessing happening in all that). I hate to say it, because this might sound really twisted, but this is kind of like a game of chess at first. I don't HAVE to know my "opponent's" move before I plan my own. But it's smart to guess it. (Switching analogies), if I'm gonna successfully fly a kite, it's helpful if I lick my finger and put it up in the air to see which way the wind is blowing. Right?
To me, the text today "just because" signals that whatever I'm doing is "working" IF I want to bring my H closer to me. In fact, I worked the steps at the beginning of DB - in the event I decide I want to try to save our M (that IS, after all the point of DB) - and one of the "small goals" would be: "He texts me, just because, and it won't have anything to do with the kids."
The fork in the road for me, now that I'm starting to see a few, very minor changes in him, is what *I* want to do if he keeps walking toward me with baby steps.
And, for the life of me, I cannot figure it out.
I don't know what I want. Except a little control. I know I want that.
hs, I ordered that book. Thank you for the recommendation. Can't wait to read it.
Train,
I think you should continue as you are. I wouldn't offer words of affirmation at this point unless they are heartfelt and genuine. I think at this point he knows what he will be missing without you in his life- now he needs to FEEL what he will be missing. You are correct that the A will start to lose its luster as the fantasy he's envisioning in his head doesn't play out as he expects. The fact that the OW has a child that takes time away from him will start to get old in a hurry.
Don't second guess yourself for exposing the A to the OWs husband- it will help to speed up the end, despite what it appears currently. Affairs are very selfish things, and both parties involved are selfish themselves. Both want what makes THEM happy, not what makes their A partner happy. Of course, they don't see that yet- they think they want their partner to be happy, and that their A partner is only wanting the best for them as well. If that were really the case, then why would they be putting the other person's spouse and children through this awful experience? Once the fog is lifted, they will only be left with a tenuous relationship between two very selfish individuals. That's when reality will begin to set in.
On another note, I wouldn't ML with your H if he try's to make a move on you. It's not fair to you, and it will only allow him to eat more cake. I'm not suggesting that you are of the mind to, but just a reminder!
As you are aware, affairs are addictions. His brain is pumping chemicals that are encouraging you H to pursue this woman at all costs; that she is now his "soulmate". At the same time, his emotions are pushing him away from you. Picture a defiant teenager, disregarding his parents to go out with a girl that everyone else sees as a bad decision. You can't argue logically with that teen - they will have to come to the realization on their own. In fact, the more you push against them, the more you feed their "us against the world" passion. Instead, you must let them fall flat on their faces. As sickening as it is, you just have to pull away completely and let their R run its course. You'll have to be there to help pick up the shattered pieces afterwards....
Stay strong!
Hs
Train,
I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but I've been trying to put my finger on what it is about your posts that keeps gnawing at me. I mean, first off, you are obviously a very bright, articulate, funny, insightful woman, and that comes thru loud and clear.
Usually, I am having to advise people to care a little LESS . . . become more detached. But you seem like maybe you need to care a little . . . more?
Your descriptions of your sitch come across to me as almost FLIPPANT, even though there are obviously big issues on the table here.
In any event, I WOULD urge you to try to get back to that DB principle of "having the mind of a beginner."
Much of your DBing seems "too cute by half" to me, and I'd just like to caution you that you may not know HALF of what you THINK you know about what your husband is thinking or doing.
Or, maybe you do, and you're just that good and I'm all wet.
Peace,
Starsky
P.S. HS is the best . . . you'll get GREAT advice from him!!
Thanks, hs. I know you are exactly right.
I swear, the battle between heart and head is REAL! Hahaha.
And, yes, on the ML. No doubt. I have set a boundary with myself that it will. not. happen. while he's still communicating with her. It wouldn't happen until or unless I'm convinced he's genuinely remorseful. H and I have, indeed, always had a great sex life ... when we make time. And that certainly makes resisting HARD. Fortunately for me, he's not trying right now. I might have to go for a quick run ... or take a cold shower or something ... if that changes.
But the truth is: I'm kind of having fun viewing MYSELF as the "OW" right now. (Funny how the tables turn, eh?) So, being able to doll up and be a little flirty, and watching his eyes and his sexual tension grow (even if only a little right now), then telling him "bye," is actually kind of invigorating and fun. (Sad what constitutes as "fun" these days - ha.) Shameful of me, maybe. But that's a little bit of an "unfair advantage" that women have in these sitches; might as well use it. Besides, it's making me feel better. And that's all that matters right now.
And as for those darned teenagers: with two daughters, 16 and 17, I have some REAL experience with that relationship-rebellion, especially with my poor D16. Just last summer, I gave her all the words of wisdom I had about a guy she wanted to date. She broke up with her long-time BF for the new guy. I warned her about that being shaky ground, but I told her I wouldn't stand in her way. She made the choice to take the plunge. And she paid the price. Thankfully, it didn't take long.
So you're right: Sounds about the same as with H. Hopefully it won't take long for his fog to lift, either, so we can at least constructively talk about our R and the breakdown of our M. I'd *at least* like some closure on that. And there are things I know I should probably apologize for and improve about myself as a partner, whether that's with HIM ... or someone else ... eventually.
That is, if I don't swear off romantic love forever.
Starsky, I TOTALLY feel you, and *I think* I know what you're sensing. (And thank you for your kind words about me, by the way.)
I could be wrong. But see if this puts your finger on my pulse: Indecisiveness. Trying to be one way. Feeling a different way. Not wanting to totally commit to saving my M ... because I failed once ... and I'm deathly afraid of failing again.
And I'm deathly afraid my H won't even want to try. That this could really be "it." But he's sending too many mixed signals for me to be sure.
I assure you, I'm taking this super-seriously. And I care an awful lot. But I'm not a beginner at this, which might be why you're not having to tell me to care less and detach like you do most people. I threw my DB hat on immediately. And perhaps I'm taking that too far. I am MAD this time. I am insulted. I am heartbroken. And I am completely confused about what I want. Or what I can have. Or what I can do to get it.
I'm also dealing with unresolved issues from last time.
And I'm also likely struggling to be completely honest about my deepest feelings here because anyone I've confided in "out here" has told me I'd be crazy to even THINK of taking him back this time. So I've built up walls; I'm a little guarded, for a number of reasons. I understand that if I'm GOING to be honest with myself - and I need to be - that this is the perfect place to do it. But I'm also having a hard time picking everything apart to DECIDE what I want. That's why I came back here. To write. To receive feedback. And to try to sort it all out.
I may not know half of what H is thinking or doing; you're likely right about that. Heck, if I can't even figure out what *I* am thinking or doing, who am I to try to figure that out in HIM? I just re-read my book this week, but I'll absolutely go back to that chapter and read it again.
I just don't know if it's worth it to try. So I'm doubling-up my "I don't care" efforts because whether he comes back or not, that's sort of where I need to be, mentally.
I could be totally wrong about any and all of that, and I am depending on you guys to help pull ME out of a possible fog. I'm certainly not above being in one. And thank you for that. I do not mind - in fact, I appreciate - being held accountable.
Does any of that make sense?
(I should also add: I'm a writer by trade. And that could very well be why my descriptions of my sitch seem flippant.)
Okay, Starsky. I went back and re-read the 1st chapter. I didn't glean anything new from it; in fact, it (and all my underlining and highlight-marks from my previous read) kind of reenforced everything I've been thinking/doing, instinctively, from the bomb-drop: communicating differently than normal (differently, for me, is NO talking/communicating), looking at things differently/changing things about myself (for me, I'm a SAHM, so showing confidence - and taking care of myself - is really a change from how H has seen me lately); "it takes one to tango" (although I'm detaching from him while separated, I'm being polite to him and validating him at times when, as sh says, it's heartfelt and genuine), noting that "small changes matter," and "thinking small" (H texted me, just because, about my car today), etc. etc. etc. The chapter even says that the focus might not be to fret over the CAUSE of why we're not getting along ... but to figure out *what to do about it*. Right now, H and I are S. We don't see each other. There's not much I can do, besides GAL/180s/detach/"act as if". And that's what I'm doing.
I am TRYING to re-think EVERYTHING with a beginner's mind. It is driving me CRAZY. If I'm missing something, pleeeeeease let me know; I'm sincerely desperate for feedback, even though that might not come across in my posts.
There is some specific feedback I might be able to use from you all, because this could actually help me tons:
My writing-style is very conversational. As I said, during my working-years, I was a writer. I write the way I think. Especially on this forum, I just write what I think, as I think it. It's like journaling for me. But if people could SEE me when I write/communicate, they'd see I'm *feeling* things - very deeply. But from the other side of a computer screen, I can see how my true emotions may not come across succinctly. In fact, I might come across as too direct, too confident, too strong, too uncaring, "too cute by half" etc.
Here's the problem: Because I write like I think/talk, I can imagine that perhaps having a conversation with me in person, or over text, might be a tad overwhelming if/when I'm at odds with someone or really trying to relay something about which I feel passionately.
Here's my "eureka moment" when I read what you posted: I think this may be why my H has been accusing me of being a "sarcastic b!tch" lately; all we did, after he left, was text. So, as you can likely imagine, I came down with a heavy - and, he's right, probably seeming sarcastic - hand. It's my way of masking my pain. Because I've dealt with this before, I *do* feel stronger. But I'm feeling lots and lots ... and lots ... of overwhelming pain. I feel pain looking at my children. I feel pain looking at my teenagers. I feel pain when I see my H. I feel pain and anxiety about how I will lead this family of (now) 5 when I depend on my H sooooo much, especially financially. But I also depend on him as a companion, my best friend; I just probably never expressed that enough to him. Allllll I feel is pain. But I don't SAY that. I haven't even told him that. Not even once. And, in the aftermath of his betrayal, I'm trying to take back *just a little bit* of control. *Just a little bit* of integrity. *Just a little bit* of power. Just a little bit ...
But I DO NOT want to look weak. Or in pain. Or dependent on him.
I have many friends. And I have many who seek out conversations with me. So it's not like I'm a crappy conversationalist. Even my H actively seeks me out when he needs "advice." We had one such conversation right around Christmastime. He approached me and told me that he had always watched me be so "giving" to people; I'd take the shirt off my back for anyone in need. He's NEVER been that way. He said he used to look at me and think I was ridiculous for feeling good for giving so much away for absolutely nothing in return. But he was in a position to help someone at Christmastime, and he wanted to talk to me about the pros and cons.
Without knowing this was around the exact time he had initiated contact with OW, btw, I spent 45 minutes to an hour talking with him. Let me rephrase: Talking TO him. I hate to admit that. Even as soon as the conversation was over, I felt I had talked it TO DEATH, even though he has asked me to talk with him about the pros and cons of the decision before he made it. Even *immediately* after I talked it to death, I started beating myself up. I realized that probably all he wanted was to receive validation from me ... and a pat on the back ... even though he had *asked* me to weigh the pros and cons with him. I don't think he was looking for me to *kill it* with the up-sides and potential pitfalls of his choice. I mean, that's what he ASKED for, so I gave it to him.
At the end of it all, I encouraged him to give, despite the potential "cons." I told him to give with a "giving heart," without expecting a pay-back. And that's what he chose to do. I was over-the-moon happy for him because it made him feel like a million dollars. I liked to see that happiness in him. And I told him so. But I was even happier that it was HIS decision to give, even after I had delivered the potential "cons."
I just think I talk (write) too danged much. I over-think ... and maybe over-type ... EVERYTHING.
I have always praised my husband, privately and publicly, for "getting me out of my head." I've praised him for being my very best friend and someone who reminds me to be spontaneous and not take life so freaking seriously. In fact, I did that again on our Valentine's anniversary ... on my Facebook page, which is followed by many people. He seriously asked several times that night how many "likes" it got (self-esteem issues much?).
Yet, he spent that night, after we had both fallen asleep (but he awoke), texting OW.
Maybe I'm just too "aggressive" of a communicator? Too direct, perhaps? Do I come across too strong??
Just to be clear: I never write my H letters. In fact, if I'm ever having a disagreement with *anyone*, I try NOT to write letters. Because I know I come across as a focused, non-caring, "too cute for half" pit-bull.
But now I'm afraid maybe that's how I come across face-to-face, too, especially when I'm mad and/or nervous and/or anxious and/or in a corner. And that seems it could be VERY intimidating to others if I am at-odds with them. And that makes me feel really crappy because I don't want to be such a heavy-handed communicator ALL the time when I'm uncomfortable or angry.
And here I am, likely over-thinking this, too ...
Or am I?
What's more, guys:
He worked 5 days and nights a week, and on Saturdays, when he didn't have to. For our finances, he could have worked half that time in the evenings. His time at his 2nd job - at least most of it - was all about his ego. And, beyond finances, he didn't think of me/us. He inconsiderately stuck me at home with the kids during "second shift" - after I had already been with them ALL day ... and even slept in the same room with them at night - while he worked and, often, spent hours drinking beer in the shop with his "partner," without making a dime.
In other words, I'm spinning my wheels, trying to figure out how *I* contributed to the breakdown of our M. And all the while, he's blaming me, too. It alllllll becomes about ME and MY inadequacies. And I'm SICK of it.
He supposedly worked so much that he didn't have time for me. Any time he was home, he was either playing with the kids or asleep. He even slept at home during his lunch break. I thought it was because he was working all the time, so I accommodated that. I didn't bother him while he slept. I rarely complained because of my stupid compassion.
In the aftermath, I discovered he slept all the time because he was up all night, texting OW.
So maybe that accounts a little for my feelings of independence and strength, too.
Big problems are on the table. But mostly, that's because of him.
(Another) Vent over.
UGH!!!! I HATE this crap. Hate it. Hate it. HATE it!!!!
H usually calls the little kids every night. (He avoids me and my daughters, his stepdaughters - 16 & 17 - who he's raised since they were 4 & 5.)
He missed calling the "babies" one night last week. I didn't say a word. He missed last night. I didn't say a word. (He texted me at lunch "just because" today; it was a pleasant exchange, detailed in an earlier post, which is still in moderation, I believe.) He didn't call tonight, either. But he texted after 10, freaking out because he lost track of time. He said: "Hey! Calling S7 at least. Had no idea what time it is ..." (I'm sure he's working, but who's to say he isn't with OW, right?!??)
1.5 hours later, I texted back: "Hey. Kids and I had an impromptu snuggly movie night, watching Frozen. Didn't have my phone on me. They're sacked."
I knew this would bother him. I also know he needs, as sh said, to FEEL what he's left. It was the truth, though. I know he misses our time together as a family. It was always one of his favorite things to snuggle together on the couch as a family and watch a movie. It was one of OUR favorite things.
Sure enough, he just wrote back: "K"
I wrote: "Trying to keep my phone on me until 9:30ish in case you call." (Setting a boundary.)
And, again, he wrote: "K."
He's ticked.
Yay. (I say that sarcastically.) Can't wait to see how he "pays me back." (I say that sarcastically, too.)
This crap seems so backwards sometimes.
Just found out OW's H has retained legal counsel ... at the same firm that would represent me. My L told me OW's H has "a lot" of information ... "much more" than even I was able to gather. That means he's been getting more over the past few weeks since H has been gone and, clearly, still carrying on his EA/PA. I assumed that was the case and have been dealing pretty well with detaching from it.
Apparently, the legal partners are wanting to work together to share information, and OW's H has acknowledged he's willing to work with me and share information. My L said he wouldn't tell me the extent of OW's H's information until I signed a waiver, acknowledging I don't mind the firm representing us both. That will happen in the next two days.
To know that information feels the equivalent of snooping. It might help me eventually, in a legal sense. But I JUST NOW started feeling better after all the information *I* had uncovered. (Not snooping, for the record, is the absolute best medicine for anxiety; it has saved my sanity.) I'm not sure I'm ready to see what OW's H has; my L said it is "bad" and would really help solidify/further my case.
I am literally sick. I had given my H a "golden ticket" out of this nightmare when I sent him an e-mail that OW's H sent to me, saying he was going to work to repair his M. That "forgiveness" literally took H off the hook, legally, for his part in this. I told him if he stopped talking to/pursuing OW at that time - which was about a month ago - he would be legally clear from a suit from OW's H. I'm such an enabling fool.
My H is now a sitting duck, apparently with stacks of evidence against him.
L said even if the OW's H files suit against H, courts will always consider alimony and child support a precedent ... even if OW's H's judgment against H comes down first. So I'm still protected and okay to "hurry up and wait" with filing.
I think I'll just tell my L to hold onto this new "evidence," though. I don't want to see it now. And there's no need because, for now, I'm just letting things ride ... until H withholds money from me or substantially decreases what he's giving me now. At that point, I'd have to file for a S. And then I guess I'd HAVE to see what evidence he has because I'll have to use it.
I had *just* started feeling better.
Someone remind me to breathe ...
And here I was thinking that the OWs husband was being dismissive and burying his head in the sand!
Whatever the OH gathered may help you down the road, if you need it. In the meantime, like you said, no need to do anything.
I'm going to predict that the A with the OW will crash and burn sooner than later. This means that you can take your time and give your husband all the rope he needs.... Enforce your boundaries and meet none of his needs. Let the OW to try to meet ALL of his needs- I don't think this grocery cashier will be able to.
Way too tired to write more (long day). Sorry about the news, though I'm sure it's not a total shock!
Oh, and *breathe*
Hs
Hang in there. I admire your strength in not looking at the info. It will get better.
HS,
YOU are a breath of fresh air.
Thank you, kind friend.
You guys have bolstered me to make it through another day.
Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for taking time to respond.
Something else I hate:
"Sightings." And people telling me about them.
My D16's BF came over last night and said he saw H and OW together at a grocery store about a week ago.
They're PUBLIC with the A now?!? Even though both have spouses?
Guess it's definitely "out" now.
Another kick in the gut ...
Ugggh -- those are rough. You need to tell friends and family, lovingly but firmly, "I know you're trying to help me by letting me know that, but I'm already aware they are together and each of these reports just hurts me even more, so I'd appreciate not informing me of these anymore."
Or something similar.
Starsky
Yep. The bad part is they've already told the story by the time I get around to saying it. Hahaha.
Maybe a big email blitz to all my contacts will help.
H came here - again - at lunch. I am so over it. I honestly don't know how spouses continue living in the same home with their cheating spouses. It's a special kind of torture to see him daily. I may have derailed a little, but I asked him how much longer he thinks his moving is going to take. He snapped at me, saying it's going to take more than 15 minutes during lunchtime to finish. I offered to help since I'm home all the time. He, of course, refused.
He mentioned he was yelled at yesterday for being late to work after lunch. I asked why he was late; he had been here, after all. And he snapped again: "Because I don't want to BE there anymore!" I just walked away.
He gets this way sometimes. It's hateful. I don't know how people stand to work with him. Similar to having to live with him when he's like that.
He was in a more lighthearted mood in previous weeks when he was around. It could be because I've switched my approach a little: fewer niceties, more boundaries. Feels counterintuitive. Which means I'm probably right on point.
But he seems to be growing distant and angry in response. He's not smiling at all except when he's with the kids.
It could be that whatever OH has that shows undeniable proof of the A "came out," and that's what has triggered the mood shift. The timing is right. And it must be big for it to have made OH land himself at an atty's office just weeks after trying to reconcile. Especially when he doesn't have a job. That's a pretty ballsy (and frightening) move; I know from experience. Perhaps OW is under extra stress right now with her M crumbling.
I could see any of that causing H to become snippy and bitter and distant, too.
But, hey, this is what they wanted, right? Each other. Not their spouses. We are making it "easy" for them to be together. They most certainly planned to be on Cloud 9 without us in their way. Guess that's not turning out quite like planned.
Just wondering if I should stick to my current approach or go back to being a little softer. I'll probably stay "here" for a week or so and monitor what happens?
Signed the conflict-of-interest waiver today for my firm to represent OH. Onward ...
awwwwwwwful lotta mind-reading in that last post there, Train. Don't MAKE me come over there and show you where!
Starsky
Yyyyep. You got me on that one. Dang it.
Every time HIS mood changes, I start trying to figure out why.
I can make this make sense by saying: Well, I'm trying to figure out if what I'm doing is working to bring him closer to me. He's obviously not acting closer to me. And so then I head down that "mind-reading slippery slope" - wellll, it COULD be this ... or it COULD be that - justifying myself by thinking I'm "monitoring results." Clearly, I'm instead just on a self-destructive, mind-screwing slippery slope. I'm getting into his crazy.
Despite circumstances, my boundary-drawing isn't drawing him closer to me. Duly noted. But it could just be too early.
THAT's how I need to focus, yes?
Now, how to continue to detach and stick to what's working ... while also being able to "experiment and monitor results" (without being drug into his messed-up head and circumstances) ...
I'm up for pointers!
Yyyyep. You got me on that one. Dang it.
Every time HIS mood changes, I start trying to figure out why.
I can make this make sense by saying: Well, I'm trying to figure out if what I'm doing is working to bring him closer to me. He's obviously not acting closer to me. And so then I head down that "mind-reading slippery slope" - wellll, it COULD be this ... or it COULD be that - justifying myself by thinking I'm "monitoring results." Clearly, I'm instead just on a self-destructive, mind-screwing slippery slope. I'm getting into his crazy.
But at least you realize it. That's huge.
Starsky
Despite circumstances, my boundary-drawing isn't drawing him closer to me. Duly noted. But it could just be too early.
Drawing boundaries do two or three things very well. "Drawing our spouses closer to us" wouldn't be one of them, and in fact -- at least in the short term -- I've seen MANY much-needed, very-healthy boundaries actually temporarily push the wayward spouse further AWAY.
One of the misconceptions about DBing, in my opinion, is the "Do what works" thing. The problem is that people mis-define "works" as being "what doesn't make her/him angry" and "what makes her/him act nice towards me." Instead of as "what moves me further along down the path toward a mutually-healthy and committed marriage."
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
Starsky
Sometimes one has to take a short-term "hit" in the "nice" department in order to solidify a healthier, longer-term gain.
Spectacular words right there, if live a happy life, make new friends, loose those extra pounds, quit smoking, having new hobbies, and enjoying life doesnt bring the spouse back....I rather pay that price and take that bullet then have my spouse back....
Holy crap. Stellar points, Starsky.
That makes more sense.
H asked me about an hour after he left today if I needed all the things out of his garage for a specific purpose. I told him no. That it is just difficult and confusing for all of us to see him pop by every day. He says he understands and will work to get it all wrapped up in one day soon. I probably should have said something more profound. But I couldn't think of anything.
I think, in an A sitch, boundaries are warranted and not validation. I really don't know what other boundaries I can enforce besides:
1. You can't have OW *and* me.
2. If we are separated, we need to be separated. We need to set our schedule for visitation with the kids ... and stick to it. Period. Otherwise, we are separate from one another.
This is in the best interest of my PMA. And hopefully it causes the demise - sooner than later - of the A. Only at that point will H be willing to talk with me about what happened in our M. And THAT is when I can validate.
Does that sound about right?
Both of those sound reasonable to me.
Mine were:
1. No spending family finances on your affair (cellphone, cosmetic surgery) -- those would have to come out of her paycheck.
2. No texting or calling OM from inside our marital home, and DEFINITELY not in front of the kids!
3. If you're going to stay out past 11:30pm, don't bother coming home at all (she had come home at like 2am -- twice -- and so I squashed that).
4. I will not live in an open marriage (you cannot have us both).
Is it fair of me, in your opinion, to set a "no texting OW around the kids" boundary when he's not even living here?
Tough to set a boundary that I can't enforce.
I do think it's fair, but if you can't enforce it, it's probably not going to work.
Yep. Can't enforce it. So might as well not throw that one out.
H came by to get the kids. He was in a much better mood than at lunch. I asked him if the rest of his day was better. He said he was approached by his boss today and asked what's wrong. He says he replied: "I'm mind-f---ed. Going through a divorce."
He knows I've gone to a L, but in a very natural segue, I used what he said as an opportunity to FINALLY say:
"I have not yet filed. I told you I'd like to wait until at least June - when I think I'll be thinking more clearly - to make any major decisions; that includes filing for divorce. I want to make sure I am thinking clearly, and I am trying to make sure I have my children at the forefront of every decision I make."
He hesitated and said: "The courts will make sure they're provided for."
I told him I'm thinking about far more than financial stability for our kids, but that I think I will be thinking more clearly by June. I reiterated I don't *want* a divorce right now. I explained that there are two of us in this R, though, and he can file if he wants to, and there are certainly ways he could force ME to file before then.
He said waiting until June is fine.
He also changes his mind like he changes his underwear.
I reiterated, in a natural place in the conversation, that I have no desire to talk about anything relevant to our R or M until or unless he has ended his A with OW.
We had a beer together, and he left.
And I am letting go of the outcome ...
I feel I'm beating my head against a wall.
JUST after talking to H yesterday about needing him to plan one day to move instead of showing up here so often - because it's confusing and difficult to see him all the time - he brings the kids home last night and said: "I told S7 that I'd start picking him up for a couple hours one day a week to hang out, just him and me."
And I kind of lost my cool. I asked if he meant in addition to the two days a week he's already getting the kids. He said yes.
I said no way.
THIS is him trying to eat cake, right? He wants his A, *and* he wants his family. He walked out. He needs to know what he's done. He needs to feel what he's done. He doesn't get to keep one foot in my door and one foot in her you-know-what. (Sorry. That's a wayyyy twisted and unnecessary visual.) :P
The conversation got a little heated. H said, "We'll just let the courts decide." I said, "That's fine, if we can't come to an agreement. But I promise I'm being wayyyyy more accommodating than the courts will be." He said he doesn't feel comfortable having the kids sleep over at the place he's currently living; probably because there are no freaking beds. He said he needs to get his own place before he can get them every other weekend. So I said: "Fine. Then keep getting them one evening a week and every Sunday until you have your own place. But I'm not comfortable adding more days right now. You keep adding days at this rate, and you might as well just move back in!!" (Note: there's that danged sarcasm again.)
I feel guilty when I think of my S7. I know he needs time with his dad; they have always been the best of buds. But I didn't make this call. I didn't make the decision to step out on my family. And *I* need some peace around here. The only way I have found peace in the past month is after I have not seen H or heard from him for a few consecutive days.
I explained to H that we need to settle on a firm schedule with the kids and stick to it. That this was his choice and now he needs to go live his life and get out of ours until agreed-upon times with the kids.
I looked at him and said: "What do you WANT???" And he peeled out. He texted me about 15 minutes later, though: "I get what you're saying." I just responded: "Thank you for understanding."
Am I wrong here? Is it fair to place boundaries involving the kids? I don't want my children to suffer. I don't want to put them in the middle. That is the LAST thing I want to do; I only want the absolute best for them, which I believe is having their mother and father TOGETHER in ONE HOME. But that's not possible right now. And I know my H loves our kids more than anything in the entire world. But, in a fog, he chose OW over his kids, too.
He needs to live with that decision. And feel every. single. bit. of it.
Right?!?
Or am I wrong?
You are right. And exactly for the reasons you state.
Stand firm.
Starsky
I agree with you 100% I am in the same situation where husband wants to see kids every morning and put them to bed most nights. (She lives on the same street just 3 blocks down) my db coach said he has never seen a walk away husband come back due to punishment but I think maybe it needs to just be done in a non punishing/this ifs just the way it has to be kinda way to make them feel their choices. I give you credit for being so strong!
Thank you, Starsky.
All of a sudden, I feel I'm back on solid ground.
Forgot to journal about this; and would love to hear thoughts, especially if I was out of line:
Last night, I was with a friend and stopped by my usual grocery store. Yep, same grocery store OW is employed. I haven't been in there since this all exploded. But in a temporary moment of, um, probably insanity, I decided: This is my town. I've made this place my home since before I even met H. And I need wine. I'm not going to be fearful of staying out of a place.
So I went in. OW is working. And I kid you not: I'm standing in produce, and she steps away from her register and walks toward me and just stops and STARES at me. I continue to the wine, grabbed a bottle, and moved on. I went through a line that she was not working at, and as I was leaving, I FELT her stares, so, yeah, I looked back at her. She was helping someone else, and she literally followed me, with her eyes - SMIRKING!!!!!!! - until I walked completely past her. I just smiled back.
I got in my car, and my girlfriend said: "Omg, Train! She's standing right there!" Sure enough, OW was standing right outside the doors of the grocery store, arms crossed, looking around the parking lot.
I mean, she might as well cock her leg up and pee on H *and* the supermarket.
What class.
Perhaps it's best if I avoid that place, after all ... or maybe I should go back in for a bottle of wine and video her.
Should've winked at her.
That's what I did to my wife's pimple of an OM. Poor kid practically peed his pants!!
Starsky
I SHOULD have! Hahaha.
She is seriously crazed or desperate. To make a scene like that at your place of employment is CRAZY. It could cost her a job!
One thing I DID walk away with: the knowledge that in a battle of class, if it ever comes down to that, I know I have the edge.
P.S. She is seriously hideously ugly.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.
P.S. She is seriously hideously ugly.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Not at all untypical. Waywards very often "affair down" in the looks/class/$$$ department.
One thing I DID walk away with: the knowledge that in a battle of class, if it ever comes down to that, I know I have the edge.
Oh I could tell that from your very first post, Train. Remember, you can't spell "too cute by half" without "too CUTE!"
Starsky
Yep, agree that it isn't surprising at all that the OW is less attractive and has less going on. I think it makes the wayward feel more important. Who knows? In my case, the OM was good looking, but made half my income, wasn't nearly as smart (according to the W later) and had no hobbies or interests. What he did do, however, was feed my wife's ego - big time.
I'm sure that your Hs OW is seriously intimidated by you, and it's her insecurity that is causing her juvenile behavior. I'm picturing a small, mange ridden, mutt puffing up its chest and yapping at a Rottweiler. Whaaaatever....
Keep playing it the same. I see this girl being bat sh*t crazy. Your H is in for a wild ride!
Hs
Your H is in for a wild ride!
All the better for meeeeee! I'll make the popcorn. Y'all c'mon over.
I think it makes the wayward feel more important.
And I think you are dead-on. It's entire speculation on my part, of course, but I think - if their self-esteem is so poor that they turn to an A to boost their ego - then it stands to reason that they'd pick somebody "beneath" them ... or at least "beneath" their spouse. They must have someone to make them feel BETTER about themselves ... not WORSE. Clearly.
H's OW apparently had her stomach stapled a couple years ago (even though I've never seen a photo of her in which she looks obese). She ain't nothin' to write home about, but she's not obese. A friend's sister worked with her and said she has terrible self-esteem. And I read in texts with H how she was popping "anxiety meds" during her D11's dance competition.
Sooooo, yeah. Pretty much my polar opposite.
Here's the thing, though: HS, I've been reading "His Needs, Her Needs." One of the Top 5 "needs" of most men is for their spouses to be physically attractive.
I guess the book is speaking only in terms of spouses ... and not A partners? 'Cause, see, that just doesn't make much sense to me. Why do *I* have to be pretty? But she doesn't?
(Maybe it's also relative; maybe he DOES find her pretty. And we just have wayyyyyy different taste in attractiveness. There's always THAT possibility ... )
[quote]
I guess the book is speaking only in terms of spouses ... and not A partners? 'Cause, see, that just doesn't make much sense to me. Why do *I* have to be pretty? But she doesn't?
Maybe because she's
forbidden? You know, the whole "taboo" thing?
Yes, he might have different tastes, but sometimes "new" can be attractive in and of itself (within reason, of course
).
Additionally, your husband's top needs may be different than what the "typical" male might have on their list. Maybe that's a reach....
If you're reading "HN, HN", then you know that right now all of their conflicts are with people outside of them : you, her H, family, etc.. Once their conflicts start becoming about each other- BOOM! Clearly, neither of them has the relationship skills to deal with an A partner that refuses to be absolutely *perfect*!
Maybe you should send the OW a "care" package full of chocolate, chips and other fattening carbs? You know, to get her mind off the stress of divorce.
Then again, maybe that's against DB principles....I'm just feeling evil
Hs
Ahhhhhhhahahahaha!!!! I'm dying!!! That would be hysterical!
Starsky, yep, the lure of forbidden fruit. Even if it's ugly fruit. That's really what it's all about at first, no? Makes sense.
I've seen signs of agitation in H the past few days. And the fact that he texted last night, conceding "I get what you're saying ..." really took me by surprise and made me wonder (but then I caught myself and stopped - ha) if there's trouble in Paradise already. Regardless, he didn't stop by at lunch today, and he hasn't called or texted. So he's clearly (at least for today) respecting my boundary.
To heck with him and his hideous OW!! (At least for today) ...
Just got a call from a friend whose neighbor is friends with OW.
She said OH is divorcing OW, filing for child support, alimony AND full custody of D11.
I wanna give him an "attaboy" right now. Except he asked me not to contact him. So I won't.
H had told me a few weeks ago that he had told OW he would pay any/all her legal fees associated with me "going after her." (He didn't mention paying her legal fees for D, but I wouldn't put it past him since he's "in love" with her. He's also stingy with his money.) He says he takes full responsibility for the A, and he's willing to pay, financially, for her.
Now my concern is that H - who has unilaterally decided to keep our sizable (at least sizable for *us*) income tax return for himself and offered to pay out of that fund any "legit legal bills" I bring him - is going to be paying for HER an atty because she went to the neighbor with a sob story about how she has no money for one. The neighbor is going to offer her some money, to help her fight for custody of D11. But I am thinking H will offer her some, too.
I'm not sure how to handle this. My L has asked me not to rock the boat with H because once I do, I'll take a financial hit. But I'm going to be TICKED if I DON'T try to get my hands on half the tax refund (I *am,* after all, a single mom of 4, and it would be very helpful) ... and then he turns around and gives it to OW for an atty.
Am I projecting? This would be synonymous, though, with using our family $ to pay for OW. But without me having access to H's current bank account, I won't know what he's doing with that $ that's legally supposed to be half-mine.
I don't know what the heck to do with this one. Seems I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. Obviously it's a question for my atty, but this is a move that may require some tactic and strategy. Should I say something to H, or no?
Can you maybe come up with something SPECIFIC you'd like to do for yourself, that amounts to roughly half of what the tax refund is, and let him know you'd like to get/do it? Instead of asking or saying "You know, I expect half of that refund, as it rightfully belongs to me" ? (even though it does)
Starsky
Wellllll, I *have* been considering prepping to take the LSAT and possibly going to law school. I know that sounds like a HUGE (and expensive) decision to tackle right now, especially for a SAHM. But it's *always* been in the back of my mind, and H knows it. (And there are grants/financial aid out there for SAHMs like me!)
Just not sure I'm ready to put S7 in school and D2 in daycare. The expense of daycare, in and of itself, is a huge turn-off for me jumping back into work/school.
The *other* problem with using that is I'd have to spend months prepping for just the LSAT. So there's no *immediate* need for that amount of $. So that may not be an option to use right now.
Then I thought: How about something specific for the house? But he knows I'm moving out sooner than later. So I don't think that would fly, either.
Maybe a trip with the kids?? A cruise? Disney/Legoland?
If I make it about the kids, he'd likely be more open to voluntarily sharing.
But if he's still thinking that he's saving that $ for OUR legal fees - or even thinking that he might use it to help OW - I expect he's going to be really stingy with it. The fact that he routed it into his business account instead of our family account speaks to his plans to control it. He feels he's entitled to it, I'm sure, since he's the only one of us who worked outside the home last year. He doesn't "get" that whatever he had in 2013 is half mine. He seriously doesn't get that. I don't mean this to be ugly, but when it comes to common sense, he isn't the brightest bulb in the pack.
I guess I could come up with something and approach him, "acting as if" he'll say yes?
If I'd have to approach him with the "it's rightfully mine" attitude, I'd rather he goes ahead and gives OW her $, and then I can make sure my atty includes my half of the refund in any future financial paperwork/support payments H has to pay.
That's assuming, though, D is inevitable for us.
Too danged much to consider here ...
Scratch all that. Big new on the homefront, fellas.
H has sought legal counsel and is ready to file.
This all started with a conversation about the tax refund. But forget that crap now. My L told me not to worry about that; it'll all be settled by the courts.
THE COURTS. Ugh. Those are two words I've been trying to AVOID.
H says his L says this D will be "easy." (I've told *my* L that I want it to be PAINFUL.)
Trying to do a little damage-control, I told H (through the urging of my L, who is a mutual friend) to bring me his terms - whatever he thinks is fair and reasonable (i.e. whatever he and his attorney drew-up) - tomorrow, and I will take it to my L (again, our mutual friend). (This is the first time I've informed H that our mutual friend is willing to handle it; I should have done this earlier, but I was trying to buy time.) He just replied: "K." I will not negotiate said terms with H. If my L thinks everything is fair and reasonable, he will draw-up papers that we both can sign.
These would only be S/custody-visitation papers; we have to wait 12 months from our S to D. So next March 3.
I just *thought* I had convinced H to wait until June for me to file. He's been plotting and planning and wasn't going to say anything, apparently, until I was served. I should have assumed that all along.
I don't know how OH's information plays into this; my L says my strategy is the same, apparently even given the new information.
I want to call H a really mean name right now. I actually kind of want to beat my head against a wall. Scream at something (somebody?). Cry my eyeballs out. And curse the day either of those two (H and OW) were born.
I'm going to go practice deep-breathing now.
Any encouraging/supportive words ... jokes ... reminders of how affairs always end in disaster in just 6 months ... would be helpful.
I think you should take the kids to Disney, do it on a budget (if you need help with that let me know I am VERY good at that) and save the rest of the money for you.
I really do hope affairs end in disaster quickly. You are in my prayers right now. I HATE liars and affair partners who seem to be "perfect"
Yeah, well, the tax refund is now a moot point now, I'm afraid. If I have any $ leftover after he Ds me, you can bet I'll be in touch for some Disney deals. I'm gonna need it!
I just don't get it. I know I'm in a downward spiral right now ... and I'll pull myself out of it quickly ... but I just don't understand. I know I'm not perfect. I know I obviously wasn't "enough" when he needed it. But after being SO incredibly loyal to him, especially in the face of what happened in 2005 ... literally standing by him like a freakin' dedicated pit bull ... and birthing two of his children ... how can he just turn on me/our family like this? This seemingly easily (besides his confusion at first, when he was still staying here and in my bed)? With no warning?
I just don't understand how he can be so freaking HATEFUL toward me all of a sudden. Even when he was cheating and still here, he was mean about me in texts, but he was extremely nice and loving to my face!
I know couples who have divorced (heck, I know some who have even CHEATED) that NEVER talked about their spouses the way he has spoken about me to OW. They've had nothing but kind, respectful things to say about one another - even to their OP - because, at the very least, their spouses are the father/mother of their children. I mean, I've known people in EAs who don't even talk about their spouses to one another. Why is the bad-mouthing necessary? Why is the meanness necessary? To justify what they're doing in their own minds?
I'm the one who's being cheated on and abandoned with 4 kids who are heart-broken, and I STILL talk about the positive things he did as a H ... and what an amazing father he is.
I'm not an awful, mean person. I have a HUGE, forgiving heart. He KNOWS this about me. But he is literally using that to his advantage right now, ripping my heart out and stomping on it over and over and over. EXACTLY the way he did in 2005. A carbon copy. And WHYYYYYYY?? (I hate that question and feel I'm in the cast of Steel Magnolias right now, just asking it with that tone of voice.)
So, who's the dummy? Him? ... Or ME?
He says mean things to justify to himself the horrible things he is doing to you. Any rational person would never be able to live with themselves after hurting another human being the way cheating spouses hurt their wives/husband
Yeah. I think you're right. And I keep reminding myself of that. I also keep reminding myself what HS has said, and HN/HN has said: That until the affair partners start having conflict among THEMSELVES (instead of with me, OH, family, etc.), this pattern of behavior will likely continue.
So I TRY not to create conflict with H. I'm trying MY BEST not to rock the boat. I have not begged him to stay. I have not pleaded. I have not written him. I have not talked about our M or R. I immediately started detaching and GAL. And I have TRIED not to "rock the boat" where H is concerned. But it STILL ends up being a conflict between H and me. He continues MAKING it a conflict between us. Unless I go completely NC, I think he will FIND a reason to try to pick a fight with me. Even when I choose not to engage by being friendly, validating and walking away.
He is full-steam-ahead to throw me to the curb like I've been nothing but a big pile of useless, used-up trash to him.
We have confused the hell out of our kids, who watched as we wrestled with the initial disclosure of what was then supposedly a "text-only" relationship ... to him sleeping in our marital bed (and telling the kids to go watch cartoons, if you know what I mean ...) and him coming home at normal times for dinner ... to now him not even feeling comfortable SITTING DOWN while he has a beer with me on the back patio when he's here, picking up the kids. He has a hard time even stepping into the house. And NOTHING DEFINITIVE HAPPENED to cause that change.
He was just telling us a month ago (even after he moved out): "I love you guys," rubbing my back in front of the kids, kissing my cheek, etc. ... but now he calls the kids BY NAME when he says, "I love you." (And not only does he leave ME out of that "roll-call," he's also not saying it to my older girls, who he has step-fathered for 12 years.)
I want to think his behavior is just him being "out of his mind" with an addiction ... just the way he's being to justify what he's done ... but I'm having a hard time seeing through that fog myself. This is seriously excruciating.
I have started writing down each hurtful thing H does (like leaving work early every day for her but I would BEG and be made to feel horrible for asking) and I am keeping them in a jar. I tell myself after I put it in the jar I am not to think about it. One day I hope to burn them when I can finally forgive. I think I got the idea from some post on here.....
Maybe this will help to be a release to you?
There is NO PAIN (or humiliation) in the world as great as having to text your H at 11:30 p.m. on a Saturday night, asking (while he's on a date with OW) where he put the Drain-O because the bathtub won't drain.
I hate him right now.
Oh I would have just let the water sit and gone to Walgreens in the morning.....
I'm feeling a little better today. Thank God.
Journaling ... (but comments/2x4s are ALWAYS welcome ...)
H came to pick up the kids a little while ago for his day with them. He seemed - what's the word? - "soft."
He said he still hasn't written down his "terms" for D. He smiled and asked if we needed to go on a date to work it all out. (A DATE????
) I WANTED to say "YES!" Instead, I told him that wouldn't be necessary because we don't need to discuss or negotiate things; all he needs to do is write down what he wants, and I'll take it straight to the L (which is what L advised me to say). He reiterated he doesn't want to fight over anything and he wants to work with me on everything. I assured him I felt the same.
(... A DATE???
...)
S7 had asked earlier this week if H would stay for a cookout tonight. He had agreed. But he always changes his mind. (I don't mind H being here, or hanging out, on his days with the kids; it's all the other days that I don't want him popping in and out or trying to get additional times with the kids.) He noticed that S7 was being really quiet, and he asked me if he was okay. He even asked S7 if he was sure he wanted to go today. I told him S7 was fine and absolutely wanted to hang with his dad. This is just SO weird because usually S7 is so excited to go places with his dad. I'm guessing he was so quiet and clingy today because, for the first time, he saw me sobbing last night. I guess I needed a good, cleansing 10-minute cry. Despite my best efforts to hold back the flood gates, I just couldn't do it any more. And S7 sat on my lap and held my hand and said: "You know what momma? It's just like in a show: There's always a villain. But in the end, everything turns out okay."
He melts my butter.
I asked H if he would have S7 and D2 home in time for dinner; he said he would. I reminded him he could stay and even use that time to write down his "terms" for me to deliver to L tomorrow. He asked if D16 and D17 would be okay with him being here. I told him we HAVE to eventually learn how to co-exist, but that if they weren't comfortable with him being here, they'd just leave ... as usual. (Not getting in between them and TRYING to make them sit down and hash things out is a MAJOR 180 for me; I'm typically a "fixer.")
So then H - obviously standing quite close - started picking something off my tank top, on my belly, and trying to wipe something off. First time he's intentionally touched me in what feels like forever. Heck, it's the first time he's allowed himself to be CLOSE enough to touch me.
An awesome Jeep drove by, and H and I were both gawking at it ... so much so that the driver smiled and waved. I waved back and giggled because he obviously caught us staring. H started laughing and said: "He waved because he wants you!"
Who knows the man H will come back as when he brings the kids home for dinner? Who knows whether he will be be nice or mean? Close or distant?
I know it shouldn't matter. I get I need to keep doing the same things, even though I feel he's constantly sending mixed signals.
But this is a special kind of hell, isn't it?
Y'all send me positive vibes this evening; I need them.
I said a prayer for you at mass today.... keep doing what your doing! Your an awesome person
How thoughtful and selfless of you! Thank you so much, twinmom!! Hugs to (and prayers for) you!
Just hoping your night was peaceful. More prayes that aaffairs end horribly and very quickly.....
Quite the setback yesterday.
I wasn't mentally prepared for H to turn things light-hearted and then - sigh - physical. Not AT ALL prepared.
We *did not* ML. That's the good news. Not even close. We just shared a kiss. A very long, passionate one ... or three.
And now I'm beating MYSELF over the head with a 2x4.
Jumping back on the wagon now ...
Poor OW, her A partner is cheating on her with his W! She'll be p*ssed!
Sounds like typical WAH behavior. There are different voices in his head- his logic tells him he's making a mistake, his emotions tell him to pursue the OW and leave. He's testing both worlds to find the "best deal" for himself.
You dropped your guard and he moved right in for a piece of cake! No worries, mistakes happen. You caught yourself and have learned from it. Repeat to yourself over and over- "I'm forcing OW to meet ALL of his needs. As long as I continue to meet some of them, the A will last just THAT much longer!".
Go to the gym today and punish yourself with a hard workout!
Hs
You're much more gentle than I deserve, HS.
I have to admit: I *did* smile a little in my heart today, thinking of the eye-lock and smirk from OW at the grocery store the other day. I just wear my smirk on the inside. BUT, it's actually MY heart that gets hurt.
He knew what he was doing, too. Things started getting a little too heated, and he said, "Okay, now I'm just being stupid." That's when he decided it was time to leave.
Today, he stopped by because S7 was up, sick, all night. H brought drinks to the house at lunch. I left to get popsicles. He didn't try to kiss me, but his hands were wandering. I didn't reciprocate at all. I know I should probably say, "Hey, pal. None of that hanky-panky 'til you're done with OW." But I think I'll just stick to actions speaking louder than words.
I'm secretly (well, not so secretly NOW - ha) so afraid I'm going to cave again. It's soooooo freaking hard! Good news is I shouldn't see him until later this week. And maybe I'll just plan not to be here. Just to stay in my safe zone.
You are exactly right, of course. I need to back completely off and let her TRY to fulfill all his needs. Damm!t this is hard.
Okay, cold shower. Then gym.
He didn't try to kiss me, but his hands were wandering. I didn't reciprocate at all. I know I should probably say, "Hey, pal. None of that hanky-panky 'til you're done with OW." But I think I'll just stick to actions speaking louder than words.
And what did your "actions" tell him? Did you push his hands away? Walk away from him? What?
Starsky
I didn't push him away. I just walked away.
It was easy and natural because he was leaving. But I can't tell you what I would have done if I had to deal with that for 20 minutes or so.
I've gotta take a few days to recover. I'm promising myself I have to be better prepared next time. I HAVE to do/be better than that.
I didn't push him away. I just walked away.
OK, good.
Yeah, good ... considering the alternative(s). But I still feel I MAJORLY blurred a boundary-line last night. I've tried to figure out a way to "correct" myself. But the words I come up with in my mind seem to fall flat. So I've decided that maybe I just shouldn't say anything. But I *THINK* I know my H pretty well. And once that boundary was blurred, I think he'll think it's permanently blurred ... or at least blurred until we have some inevitable disagreement/fight. I don't know how I'll handle it - or what I'll say - if it happens again.
I really screwed up.
He texted this afternoon to check on S7 and told me to call him if I need anything for him tonight. I thanked him. Then he texted to ask if I dropped off his paperwork at my atty's office. I told him I had and needed him to pick up the kids a little early on Thursday because the L needs to see me. I HATE having these discussions ... and try to avoid them at all costs. But H seems quite pushy about it ... less than 24 hours after his hands were venturing places on my body they didn't need to go.
H approached D17 for the first time post-BD last night when he was here and apologized to her. He also apologized to me last night for "taking everything so far." He mentioned - again - that if we ever decide to reconcile, we'll "start completely over." I've refused to talk about our M or R. We didn't speak beyond that.
I KNOW I need to stop mind-reading and fretting and reading into EVERYTHING. But I feel like SO much change in his behavior is happening all at once. And I also know it could all go back to how it's been just as quickly.
This is hell on earth.
Don't over think this thing, Train. We're MEN, and we really are simple creatures. It's the whole pursuit thing: he sensed you pulling away, so he went into pursuit mode. He wants to make sure he still has you for Plan B, or maybe it's Plan 1B, who knows. But really, this was all very predictable, was it not??
So let's be more prepared next time.
Starsky
Men ARE pretty simple, I suppose.
But I don't get it: I *withhold* sex, and he pursues. She *puts out* sex. And he pursues.
Explain?????
He'll be picking up the kids Thursday. I have a L appt so won't see him long. He's also getting them Sunday. Some police friends of mine wanna go shoot big guns. I'm going with them (even though I never liked shooting guns until 4 weeks ago - lol). So I'll make myself scarce Sunday night, too. Maybe that will give me back my mojo.
But WHY do I WANT him to pursue me?
I WANT him to end his stupid filthy nasty A.
I wanna be Plan A, dammit.
I wanna be Plan A, dammit.
Good! So did I. To be honest, I really don't understand anyone who settles for anything less than that.
Starsky
So, riddle me this (from the post before that one):
Why does he pursue me when I withhold sex ... but he pursues HER when she puts out???
I need to understand the male psyche on that. Or is that only something a CHEATING male could answer?
That jacka$s friended me on Facebook (which he hated and never used pre-BD) on Sunday, when he was being nice, and last night changed his marital status to "separated."
OUCH!!!!!!!!!!
Be the water, Train. Be the water. Be the water.
(Y'all know it's bad when I start posting back to MYSELF.)
Block him, do not allow him do control you!
Well, this serves as a good (and fast) lesson for me; you can rest assured my guard won't be dropping again any time soon.
I don't think I'll block him just yet. I'll exercise some self-control and just elect to not receive notifications from him. And then, in my own time, I'll use our new social-media "friendship" as the tool it CAN be ... for ME.
That knife can cut both ways.
If it becomes a source of heartache because I just can't stop myself from looking, I'll most definitely block him.
Crap. Maybe y'all are right. I don't wanna get down in that muck. BUT, if I do it now, I think it'll look reactive.
He is trying to get a reaction from you. Keep your head up high and be strong.
Maybe he is, and maybe he isn't.
BUT, he'd only get that reaction if I'm looking at his page.
And if he IS just looking for a reaction, that's the last thing I want to give him.
Maybe I'll sit tight for now.
Then wait a week and do it. But I don't see it as a nanna-nanna-boo-boo thing, I see it as this: He clearly did it in order to (some combination of):
1. HURT you (so you could see the new "Separated" status); and
2. KEEP TABS on you.
Why would you allow him that, when he has forfeited the right to that kind of control over you?
But that's just me. I have a VERY high "oh yeah?? well SCREW you1!" gene, so you may want to consider me the 'high test score" and get some other opinions on it, lol.
Starsky
Yes, yes. I can't think of many other reasons for why he'd wait just more than 24 hours after we became FB friends again to change it. And he did mention Sunday knowing I had been off FB for a while after BD. So he showed me an Achilles Heel there. Silly boy.
Honestly? He always told people that the only reason he had a FB account is to see my updates about the kids. He didn't even have FB friends, except for me, until BD. Now he's on there religiously, posting photos of the kids and all his work. (Needing praise.) So when I made that decision to become FB friends again, I thought: He just wants to keep up with the kids. And I'm okay with that.
But now that I think *HE'S* been looking, there might be some GAL photos mysteriously popping up on my page every once in a while. That's the biggest SCREW YOU I can give him.
Two can play this game.
Until I'm not winning.
That's when I'll quit.
'Cause I'm a sore loser.
I change my mind like the wind these days. I'll give it that week, Starsky, and monitor how I'm feeling and then, yes, delete him if I feel it's hurting me.
This is the debate playing out in my head today. For those of you who have read "His Needs, Her Needs" *AND* DR, you'll probably see this clearly and can help me pull it apart:
HS said the other day that I need to focus on meeting NONE of H's needs. I need to step back and let OW meet those needs ... or try to. We've also established that I need to try to minimize conflict between H and me so that, eventually, the conflict can be between him and OW. And we have decided that H needs to FEEL what he's missing.
I'm struggling, though, with the notion of him "feeling/realizing what he's missing" if I am pulling completely back and out of the picture. So the argument could be: Ok, we were married for 10 years, so we *assume* he knows what he's missing. BUT, clearly I wasn't meeting at least a couple of his needs. So I can't be so sure that he realizes right now - or even eventually WILL realize - what he's missing. Because clearly a lot was missing in our M when he chose to have an A.
In DR, much of the advice seems to be to listen, validate, etc. while working on GAL/180s/detaching. And pay attention to baby steps, indicating things are improving and what I'm doing is working. H and I haven't talked about our R *ONCE* since the BD. It hasn't come up. I've refused to discuss it until he ends his A. Everything I have surmised about the break-down of our M has been from books/research.
Here's the thing: H texted me today to ask how S7 is feeling. I told him he's feeling much better. H said: "He must've gotten a lot of love from his mommy," to which I replied: "Of course!" Then, he started texting about how he's struggling today because he worked until the wee-hours of the morning and was back up in 2 hours to start all over again. And that led to him texting about his work, what he's up to, etc.
H hasn't been contacting me *at all* - unless it's been about the kids - until the past week.
In other words, hearing from H randomly is new territory for me. And, strangely, this is one of the "baby steps" I listed when I first set my goals post-BD: One of the ways I would know things are improving is if he "texts me randomly and it isn't about the kids."
During our M, when H would text about work - and about how unhappy he is - I would become clearly frustrated and tell him essentially to suck it up, buttercup. You've got a family to support. Period. Stopyerbitchin'. (That's because he has a pattern of growing miserable at work, then just snaps and packs up and leaves and goes somewhere else ... sometimes even leaving the family without insurance and in a position of having to settle for less income at a new job.)
I hate to admit that. But it's how I handled it after so many years of him being that way. I didn't try to validate his feelings AT ALL.
So, I'm confused with how to proceed on something like this because:
1. It's a 180 for me to validate his feelings and ask questions about what's going on at work without attacking or criticizing him. And I'm not instigating the conversation; he is.
2. Him texting me is a "baby step" that I have listed as part of my "thinking with a beginner's mind" goals.
HOWEVER ....
1. H hasn't ended his A with OW.
2. I should be attempting to meet none of his needs - including validating him or maybe even *listening* to him - to put the burden on OW to do that so H will feel what he's missing while he's not with me.
3. H's experience with me, when it comes to him talking about his work, has been vastly negative. So if I just don't engage, or if I act uninterested, I'm doing "more of the same."
(I should add that H ended the conversation on a snarky note, saying, "Oh, BTW, I didn't include any of my income from the second job on my proposal. That's a job-by-job pay, and there's not much work for me right now. I don't want to screw you, but I have to protect myself in case there's no work there." I WANTED to say: You're not screwing ME, Ackhole; you're screwing your KIDS. Instead, I just replied: "Ok. I'll let L know." So, yeah, the convo ended with me wanting to strangle him. Again.)
Is anyone following all that confusion? Can anybody pull that apart and help me figure out why it's confusing me so badly? Is it simply that an OW is involved, so that kinda changes things up, from a DB perspective? Help?
Train,
If that is legitimately a pre-his-affair marital complaint (and not some affair-induced "re-writing of marital history" thing), then I think you could make a small adjustment to the "meet none of his needs thing," which I'll get into below, but it should be noted that you're NEVER going to be able to fully reconcile the DB and HN/HN systems, as they are very, very different. (Harley recommends exposure of the affair, MWD does not, for starters, and then MWD is much more "be their best friend, while lovingly detaching").
I think you could try to be more validating specifically about his work stuff, IF:
1) HE brings it up (don't initiate the conversation); and
2) You be the first to end the convo (remember, you're a very busy, interesting, mysterious, GALin' gal!).
I think there are opportunities to give him "glimpses" that you "get it," without going full-on into his BFF mode.
But for the most part, I agree with HS's advice -- and approach.
fwiw.
Starsky
should have added:
3) you otherwise maintain firm your boundaries.
Well, Starsky. You've pegged one of my biggest issues: I don't KNOW if it's a legitimate pre-A complaint of his. He hasn't complained to me about ANYTHING because I've told him I don't want to talk about any of our issues until he's broken off his A. Even during our M, he never complained about *ANYTHING* I did ... or didn't do. So I have NO idea what, in his mind, I did wrong.
Maybe I should open the floor to that discussion at some point, now that things have calmed down a little. At first, I didn't want to hear his complaints because I *KNEW* he was just lashing out with "rewriting-marital-history-in-the-throes-of-an-affair." It's pointless to try to talk to someone about real, legitimate complaints in that mind frame. My thoughts are: As long as he's with her, he is going to rewrite our marital history, and I'm going to be a villain.
I'm just doing a lot of self-reflection and have identified my responses to his work frustrations as something with which I could have done a lot better.
I cannot be his BFF right now. That's too painful and, in my opinion, one HUGE mixed signal. And I exposed the A in a BIG way. So I guess I've already broken some of MWD's guidelines.
I think it was Cadet, or maybe Jack Three Beans over on the MLC forum, that said to focus on "those things that sting."
YOU know which complaints are legitimate, and which are not. Focus on the ones that YOU know you would need to work on, just to become a better woman and partner, to SOMEBODY going forward . . . even if it wasn't going to be your current husband.
Starsky
That's great advice and exactly what I plan to do. Now, I just need to hear his complaints ...
In the meantime, I can only speculate.
Train,
It is tough to decide which approach is right for you. In my reading of HNHN, a H is encouraged to try his best to meet his WAWs needs for up to two years before going dark. For W, they are told to only attempt to meet the WAHs need for two WEEKS. Why the huge disparity? Because they are of the opinion that 1. It's not good for a woman's health to deal with the stress that long, and 2. WAHs aren't as easily swayed by having their "needs" met. WAWs can be fought for more easily by their Hs, while WAHs tend to be more stubborn.
What you are doing right now is a "best of both worlds" approach, but that is (we're told) doomed to failure. Your husband had one affair. You took him back, but did not recover your M properly. Your H then goes and has a SECOND affair. In my opinion (I'm no licensed counselor - just a guy, like Starsky, that recovered his marriage from a steep dive!) you must not treat this second A like two highschool sweethearts in a spat. He has devastated you and your children. By letting him kiss you, touch you, and complain to you, I don't think you are setting concrete boundaries as Starsky outlines. You are instead, unwittingly and tacitly, telling him that it's ok to have an A, you'll still be there to kiss and touch and text to even as he decides to dump you out of his life.
What can you do? I have heard of others putting an intermediary in place to handle the kids schedules so that you wouldn't have to have contact. That doesn't have to be anyone formal- it can be a relative or friend. Without contact, you hope that the A is hastened to its end, and that your H returns hat in hand. There are no guarantees. Statistics that I have read state that it is less likely for a WAH to return to the M than a WAW. Seems that once men have made up their minds they are less likely to return....
I think your H is still in the fog. He doesn't see this woman's faults- only her promise. With you, on the other hand, he sees plenty of faults. It's the contrast effect- the LBS rarely looks good to the WAW. Get yourself out of that "contrast" entirely! Let him ONLY have this woman to complain to. Let's see how she handles his daily b*tching about work. Maybe she'll make the mistake at rolling her eyes at his hundredth complaint and that sets off an arguement between them?
Waywards can't tolerate an A partner that isn't perfect. They didn't blow their lives up for someone with faults. That's why it hits them SO HARD when the A partner suddenly shatters the fantasy. Their whole world operates on the premise that the OP has no faults, and will meet every last one of their needs perfectly. You are trying to spped your H to the realization that this OW is FAAAAR from perfect. The problem is, you are the very last person he will listen to on this matter. He must discover it by himself.
The other problem (though you may have better self control) is that if you are in his life, feeling this pain long enough, you may say or do something hurtful that will guarantee he never returns. By stepping away now, you only leave him with a good memory of you, not the angry, hurt, spitefully woman you *may* become.
Sorry for the long winded 2x4! I'd like to see your M recover- not crash and burn!
Deep breath!
Hs
Sometimes, a long-winded 2x4 is EXACTLY what I need.
I've been pondering this all afternoon/evening. And I need more time to process it.
I'll be back with my thoughts once my brain has had some time to think through all of this. It's been in overdrive since I read it.
But THANK YOU, HS. I value your opinion and insight ... and your time ... very, very much. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
Okay, I'm ready for a new approach. I'm starting to wake up at 4 a.m. every morning - even after 6 weeks of sleeping FINE - so I KNOW I'm not on the right path.
Clearly, I fumbled. I let my guard down. And now I'm on a downward spiral.
I'm ready to find my footing again, and I have set things up to be able to switch my approach.
I didn't spend 3 weeks trying to meet H's needs as HNHN suggests in Plan A. But that's in the past. I didn't tell H what I wanted. I handled that last week. I didn't tell him I'd be willing to work on our M if he ended things with OW. That's been handled now, too.
So now I can start from Square One, knowing I've taken the steps that I could ... even if I was late taking them. And H isn't responsive whatsoever. In fact - in typical WAS behavior - it just pushes him further away. I know this.
Now, for the approach. I think I'll be good with a "soft" NC. No texting. No family dinners. No calling. No talking. But to go completely NC - with an intermediary - is a HUGE commitment, and it's not one I'm 100 percent sure I can handle long-term. And something that big would take perfect precision and execution. One slip-up, and it's over. Correct me if I'm wrong about that - I'm still reading about WFH's "Plan B" - but that's what I'm gleaning from what I've read so far.
I DO think I can limit - extremely - any face-to-face contact with him, when possible. Tomorrow, he has to pick up the kids at 4:30 so I can go to my L. Both my older DDs are working. Everyone I *know* will be working at that time, so I don't have anyone who could handle that "hand-over" for me. But I can make sure I'm not here when he brings them back. And I've already made plans for Sunday so I'm not here when he picks up/drops off.
I'm ready to knock-off any physical touching and "just because" texting if that's in the best interest of the potential future of this M. And I'll do whatever I have to do to control that. I feel I have enough discipline and willpower, if I dig deep enough, to pull that off. I've done it before. I can do it again.
Here's one problem: He wants to call the kids nightly to talk to them before bed. Do I just tell him no? I don't want to hurt the kids. I know he did this to them. But I don't want to feel like I'm using them as pawns in some "game" of trying to restore my M. I can handle a firm visitation schedule. But cutting off ALL other contact, like a bed-time phone call? I just don't know. I'd love your opinions.
H texted yesterday: "I just miss my kids .... ALL OF THEM!!!!!!"
I know that's tearing him up. But that's really just too bad.
That's where I am right now. It's all just too damn bad.
I think you should definitely let him call the kids at night, but just say a "Here they are, I'll let you talk to them" ONLY. Tell the kids they can just say goodbye when they're done talking to daddy -- no need for you to get back on the phone.
And then stick to it.
My two cents.
Starsky
Perfect. That's what I've been doing. Often even let them answer.
Also something worth mentioning re: me stepping out and letting OW handle H ...
He told me earlier that he's off his A/Ds. He's been on 2 for several years because of his anger/temper. He had said at BD that if it weren't for me, he wouldn't need them.
So, he's apparently come off of them.
Just a matter of time, I'm guessing, before that catches up with him.
Or, maybe I *am* the root of all his unhappiness.
He (And she) shall see.
If he went cold turkey off meds chances are there will be MORE problems than before to deal with. Let OW try and be perfect now.......
Meh. Not cold turkey off the 2nd one. He went cold turkey off the 1st one, shortly before BD. The doc weaned him off the 2nd one and prescribed him a stronger one to start once he stopped the other. He weaned off and apparently chose not to start the other.
Spiraling, spiraling, spiraling ...
S7 was bawling this evening. I tried to listen and console, but he said he wanted to call his dad. So he did. And he told him how he feels and how much he misses him being at home.
H said, "I'm going to work on getting you another day in the week."
I re-emphasized to H, later, that I am not okay with that. We had this conversation LAST WEEK. I said, "I think you need to pick the life you want and own it."
He wrote, "That's f--ked up. The life I chose to live is to leave you - NOT THE KIDS"
Guys, what do I do to get back on track? What specific steps, if any, do I take to stop this current spiraling and go "dark"? Do I just do it? Just show through my actions? I DO NOT want to fight over the kids. I don't want to fight at all. But I DO want him to understand that this is the path he's chosen and that he can't have his cake and eat it, too. I desperately need a break.
Maybe I shouldn't have let S7 call him. Maybe I shouldn't have responded about the extra day. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all.
This is out of CONTROL now.
I am sorry I have no advice for you. But I wanted to say that I understand completely how you feel. H is doing the same thing to me and I don't know how to enforce this without coming across as using the kids in a "game"
Turning it over to God, as I really have no answers.
What I WANT to say is:
I'm going to have to work 2 jobs.
Our S7 is going to have to go to public school and likely after-school after having been raised in the comfort of our home and family for almost 8 years.
Our D2 is going to have to spend most hours of her days in day care after never leaving the comfort of her home.
DD16 and DD17 are talking about changing their college plans to be able to stay here and help me support D2 and S7.
I'm going to stop paying mortgage payments and wait for our house to go into foreclosure and our family to be evicted just so I can squirrel away enough money to pay future monthly shortfalls or emergency expenses.
But, yeah. You left ME. Not the kids.
I want to hit something.
Waywards almost always blame others, usually the LBS, for every problem and conflict that they face. In this case, you are being blamed not only for his having to leave you, but for him being away from his kids. You probably also caused global warming, gas prices to rise, and the Malaysian jet to disappear. You are not alone in having a wayward spouse saying hurtful, ridiculous things to them that everyone BUT the wayward sees as crazy.
Likely, the OW is feeling the heat on her end too. She's probably applying pressure on him to leave you, perhaps even criticizing the way in which he interacts with you. He doesn't want to put any blame on himself or her, so you get ALL of it. That's why I suggest avoiding any interactions with your H. By interacting in this "tit for tat" way, you're making things worse. Let he and his OW have only each other to complain to.
Do you think they have thought through what life will feel like for them when they are both paying child support and spousal support? When they have to split their time between two sets of children? They have no idea how pinched they will be for time and income. They will have no money left to go out and have romantic trips and dinners. Real life would hit them square in the face. That's pressure....
Stay clear and let the two of them unravel themselves. By pointing out to your husband that he caused this you aren't helping things along- you are just making him dislike you more. Leave him with a NICE picture of you. Stop the needling!
Stay focused! What are you doing to GAL?
HS
I am definitely seeing exactly where you're coming from. No interactions between us is obviously the *only* viable tool I have to hang onto any string of hope that our family might eventually be put back together. But more importantly, it's the only viable tool I have to hang onto my SANITY.
My BIGGEST problem, HS, is that I cannot. keep. my. freaking. mouth. shut. I KNOW this is a problem of mine. When somebody says something that is just flat-out factually wrong, or utterly absurd and ridiculous, I just can't walk away from it. I never HAVE been able to.
So, yes. No interactions. No texts. No anything.
H is still working all the time, so I'm *assuming* that his and OW's R is still mostly texting. (I wonder how things are playing out between her and her H, too. I don't think she's still living at her home.) I only know the texts I saw right after BD - only about one day's worth - but I'm sure the content of H and OW's texts has changed drastically since then. I mean, I could be wrong. But I don't see them exchanging loads of cozy texts anymore about happy kids and, um, their favorite positions ... and how H needs her to tell him when she's about to O so he can "increase his efforts." (If it didn't make me sick, I'd probably laugh.) But I'm sure she's there for him, soothing his ego as he talks about what a b!tch I am and how I'm trying to "keep his kids from him." (And, as an aside, I DO wonder - if their R is mostly only texting with an occasional roll in the hay - how speedy this R will meet its demise. H has been talking about getting his own place as soon as financial support is determined. Perhaps that will hasten things along.)
So, yes. I need to stop giving him reasons to complain. Even if his complaints are absurd and ridiculous. And flat-out factually wrong.
Ya know, that comment last night from him flew all over me because my D16 and D17's dad has said that SAME thing to them their entire lives: "I didn't leave you; I left your mom." But yet he has NOTHING to do with them. How does even the craziest of minds make that make sense? So when H said it, it felt like a kick in my gut; luckily, I didn't respond how I *wanted* to (the above post).
Ahhhhh ... GAL. What am I doing? This week has been the worst week yet, and I don't know which came first: the chicken or the egg. I haven't done much. Friends have been busy. I was able to enjoy some outdoor time with the kids this week since the weather has been nice. Tonight, I have plans to meet a couple friends and hang out by the lake. I've been invited to a spiritual belly-dancing class tomorrow, and I'm seriously considering that. I was invited to go watch an old friend's band play Saturday night. And I've been invited to go shoot big guns on Sunday.
I'm thankful that so many of my friend's calendars cleared ... all at the same time.
But this is the perfect time for me to stay busy, so I'm glad I have some activities from which to pick and choose this weekend.
God and the Universe are taking mighty good care of me. I just need to stop and relax and know that. And stay in the present.
Get a DB coach today. The coach will help you with exactly what to say and when to keep the mouth shut. I know. It'll help you. Sometimes silence and real changes in behaviors gets more attention than being the drill sergeant and telling the spouse off, even if he deserves it. Let go and let God. You can do it. I know.
I think I'll wager my bets on just staying entirely quiet.
At the L's office now. Got here early just so I wouldn't have to see H's face when he picks up the kids.
Y'all send me positive ju-ju. I'm a ball of nerves again.
Train,
The good news is that you have a plan. Keeping your H out of your daily life should lead to less stress for you over time than having him calling, texting and showing up. It should help you maintain the love that you still hold for him (it would degrade significantly if you dealt with him frequently) and it will leave him with a positive impression of you, rather than the person you would become after he "abused" you daily with his words and treatment of you.
Don't expect results overnight. His A will have to run its course, which could be a couple of months, or a couple of years. I'd wager it will end on the shorter end of that scale, but my crystal ball is at the cleaners....
How'd it go with the L?
HS
Hey, HS! Thanks for checking in!
I know you're right. I think there's maybe a part of me that WANTS him to make withdrawals from the ol' Love Bank ... so all this, ever so slowly, would be easier and less painful to deal with.
But I feel SO much better when I'm not seeing/hearing from him. Today's been nice.
It's looking less and less like H and I will be able to work together, through our mutual friend who is a L. H proposed a substantially lower amount of child support/alimony than we know the courts would provide. He's trying to hide income from his second job, though he's maintained two jobs for at least two years. I feel pretty good about our standing in that regard. What I'm pitching is quite a bit less than I'm getting from him now, but I'm looking at some gigs to help fill in the gaps. My mom, bless her, has even offered to be a roommate. Not sure how I feel about that. BUT, it would free me up to stay home with the kids and not have to worry about daycare expenses ... or S7's broken heart about going to "real" school. But that's if I get what I want. If I take much of a hit, my plan will have to change some.
As for visitation, H is dead-set on having the kids a THIRD evening a week. I'm sticking to my guns on that one. Told L to stipulate in the visitation agreement that I will not consider that until he ends his A. He can't be waltzing into our lives three days a week while our family is still devastated from his A, which he continues, even if only mostly via texting. Two days a week is plenty. L, a little surprisingly, agreed with me. It's either an afternoon a week and all day Sunday or an afternoon a week and every-other weekend. He can pick from those two. But this is the life he wanted. He needs to go live it. And feel it.
I found out OH and OW are apparently still living under the same roof. I CANNOT imagine how awkward that would be. OW has admitted to the A in a recording, apparently also insisting it's over (horsesh!t) ... and - ahem - L has a piece of evidence that could likely physically prove the A ... by use of a black light ... and DNA testing. Hurl.
It knocked me down for a minute. Just like that feeling one gets when s/he "snoops" - which I have not done since the hotel night. (And I won't do it again.) But I stood up, brushed it off and am making jokes about it in my mind now just to ease the sting.
L just told me to tell H or his L to call him. We'll still try to settle out of court. But H is going to have to loosen up his wallet quite a bit. And if he doesn't, we'll end up in court. His call.
Who am I kidding? It's *all* his call.
Kinda a crappy day, emotionally. So I'm venting ...
I'm trying to wrap my brain around people in affairs. From everything I'm reading - and I'm paying special attention to the wayward spouse's perspective - affairs are like addictions. The partners really do feel like they're wildly in love. They become enamored with one another. They feel the other is their "soul mate." They're willing to risk it ALL for that person ... because, obviously, they feel that person is worth losing their marriages and their families and their homes.
What *I* don't understand is this:
If I'm THAT "in love" with someone - if that person is meeting my emotional needs SO well that I feel SO in love with them - then I cannot IMAGINE being physically attracted to someone else ... and ESPECIALLY the person who I blame for making me so miserable that I had little choice but to leave and give up everything. I mean, if I'm "in love" with someone outside of my M, it would stand to reason that I would be pretty repulsed by my spouse. Right?
Why is it, then, that H came here five days ago and was OBVIOUSLY hanging out with me (not just the kids) while we were outside cooking? We were having awesome conversations. I mentioned wanting to go zip-lining. He said he noticed I was looking into that when I apparently left my computer open last week when he had stopped by. He said, "but that's not your thing" because it's "speed and danger." I reminded him I'd mentioned for two years wanting to go on a zip-line trip. And he replied: "Well let's go!" We made a joke about me paying him back for going to grab something at the store, and we laughed, and he hugged me and - like old times - his hand scooted down to pat my rear. I wasn't expecting it, but I figured it was just a force of habit, so I put it out of my mind. He offered to give D2 her bath and even came upstairs while I was bathing her, which is the first time he's been upstairs since he left. He stayed after to watch our favorite TV show, which used to be our "date night." And you all know the rest ... ugh.
I just don't understand. I mean, I GET that spouses can lead double lives during the A. I get that. But once it's exposed, if he's convinced OW is his soul mate and "the one" for him, why is he still clearly physically - and possibly emotionally - attracted to ME at times? I thought I'm the one that makes him "miserable"??? I'm the one he gave up to be with her.
Sorry for the vent. Just for the record, I'm not second-guessing my position to go "soft NC" - and we've kept our 2 or 3 text conversations in the past two days just about the kids and L - so that's good. But I'm feeling mopey today. If anyone has logic to help explain the phenomenon above, I'd love to hear it. I just kind of feel like I'm being sucker-punched in the gut once every 10 minutes today.
Men want (and will pursue) something that appears to be what they can't have. He felt you pulling away, so he pursued you.
People value most that which is difficult to attain.
Starsky
This makes me want to cry and beat my head against something, because that tells me I was doing something right! Right??? EXCEPT he won't get rid of OW. So I have NO CHOICE but to change my approach. Ugh!!! Why does this have to be so stupid?????
Turns out H and OW have had bad days today. She was in court for losing her cool at home. She was ordered to chill out. I think OH wanted her ordered out.
And H found out about how much he's looking at having to pay in support/alimony. He sent a smarta$s text, asking if I told L about his average income from his second job. I just didn't take the bait. I haven't responded.
Smart?
Avoid answering, agree, but if you get pinned down at any point (like in person), just reply:
"I'm letting my atty handle all that stuff. I trust him/her."
Good talk, Starsky. Good talk.
Hi Train
Understand the beating your head idea.. it hurts don't do it.. I know..
The affair thing is so hard to understand. i have been living in its shadow for 6 months..
My H decided the marriage was over before he started the affair.. so his logic is it is not an affair.
He forgot to tell me the bit about the marriage.
I wonder if the WAS is scared and also uncomfortable in their own skin My H is reading something on affairs.. I had things lieing around.. His comment..The writers are so negative about the people who have affairs.. use negative words like Walk Away spouse.Betrayed and . I was gob smacked. but agreed yes that is a word that is used..
He used to be the one being critical of men having an affair.. now it is OK if you decide that you separated.
somehow I think the staying away or low contact is for your benefit.. I too talk too much. I make a list before we meet to remind myself ( which is about once a month) keep quiet... , calm
My next goal is to not cry.. that makes him scared... and he runs away.. not sure how to do that.. I think avoid R talks and run away myself before I cry.
I know I am not detached.. dont even pretend to be.. but I am more accepting I guess.. and realise it will take time..
Accepting helps this is a crappy situation.. I am a good person but this situation is crap.
My FAVORITE!!!
Loualea,
I am so happy you dropped by. Thank you. And I'm sorry you are dealing with this crap, too. It's gut-wrenching. I'll find you on the boards once I'm at my computer and have a moment to write, and let's stay in touch.
Hang in there!
My thread is not so good.. sometimes posting helps other times I realise I have spent hours living other peoples misery...so stay off.
but I am back at a place now where trying to straighten out my thinking ..so posting helps..
and reading other situations..
hope the money thing gets ..you have children to consider ...
I hate negotiaitng money but it is not for you but them
as to trusting your lawyer my H was his most eloquent in 6 months when trying to logically argue that just because I have a lawyer.. does not mean I should listen to her ( especially when she is a pretty assertive and on the ball woman and scares the $$$$ out of him.)
I nodded and said "hmm let'S see" his standard PA answer..
good luck
H told S7 last night that he's bringing a truck today to finish moving everything, all at once. I'm glad it'll finally be over. But it still hurts EVERY time he's here, moving more things. It's a painful, visible reminder that I've lost my lover. And my best friend. I'm going to try to find a reason to get out of the house for a while, but I have no idea what time he'll be here because he didn't talk to me about it at all, of course. He's pouting.
For some reason, I have had a VERY difficult time the past couple days. It's like, no matter what I do, I'm obsessing. I cannot keep myself in the here-and-now. I'm staying plenty busy and trying to thought-stop. But I just cannot shake the thoughts I'm having and the questions I have: Did I *really* make him that miserable? Were we *really* lacking THAT much? I have created a beautiful, peaceful home for him. We often had fun times as a family. We laughed almost every day. I wish I could show you guys what he made me for our anniversary: a beautiful tabletop sculpture made of metal built around a piece of wood I wrote my phone number down on the first time he asked for it. That was on my anniversary. That same night, he stayed up, texting OW. I discovered the affair 5 days later.
I just don't get how they can blow up two families like this. I don't understand how I don't have one of those Hs who is apologetic and remorseful and KNOWS better than to think this A is going to last. We JUST went through this 8.5 years ago. He's already showing ambivalence; he has since D-day. Why will he fight for HER love and affection ... and not MINE? We have a history together. I am the mother of his children and his biggest cheerleader and staunchest defender in life, and he KNOWS this, deep down. I have walked miles through hell to PROVE it to him. Does he really think this A is different than the last one?
And why couldn't OW be more apologetic and remorseful toward OH? I mean, she stands to lose custody of her own daughter!!!
I know, I know. Everyone has these questions. It's answered in two words: Affair fog. Right?
H is gung-ho about moving forward and "being done." He seems almost prideful when saying, "I left YOU." But yet he'll say, "If we ever get back together again, we're going to start all over."
If he loves me like he has SHOWN me he loves me (even if that love is buried deep in his psyche right now), how the he!l can he be doing this? How can he live with himself? How can he look at himself? How can he face ME?
And, what's more: Did he REALLY think this was going to be easy? What? He gets to leave and destroy his family, run off into the sunset with his putrid OW AND withhold his income so that he keeps 75% and *I'm* left with only 25% to support and raise his two beloved biological children and two stepchildren he vowed to help raise?? Does he understand that I'm thinking about his kids' needs 10 years down the road while he's apparently thinking only to the end of his you-know-what? Did he seriously think this was going to be THAT easy and that he was going to leave me with THAT little? And that I was going to "play nice"?
He treats me like I'm to blame, like I caused this, like I deserve this. And he gets all p!ssy when I stand my ground. (Even if my L is actually the one standing my ground for me.)
It is like someone has ripped my heart out and is stomping on it. Almost every minute of every, single day.
(And you're right, Lou, posting helps. Sometimes, it's like my own little journal. But I so love the feedback and support here that I'd rather journal here than always in my own private space.)
I think the hardest thing to do is NOT try to understand why.... I know that is the hardest thing for me, along with being alone. I HATE being alone and knowing that he has her for company every minute (in person or call/text whenever he wants) kills me. I wish you were close enough to hang out together and give each other company while the husbands make these huge mistakes they can't seem to stop themselves from.
exactly stomping on my heart every day..
I have the same questions..
How can he think like that feel like that..look at me and lie
describe how I am feeling as "probably not well!"
I have figured the alternative is a realization that he is WRONG,SLIMEY all those things he thought about other men..so that does not sit well so better to create a lie and believe it than destroy his self concept..
and we will not change that..in them they have to see that themselves..and that is going to hurt..
I am with you on the thoughts always appearing..even teaching 20 6th graders about adjectival clauses the sadness and loss would suddenly hit.
I found what helps a bit is to say.. this is mind reading and keeping telling myself.. or this will not help.. sometimes it helps
not always sometimes nothing helps..
Girls,
Google "Livestrong Developing Detachment." Found that today. It's great.
Hugs ...
I have that bookmarked on my phone and read it every day, sometimes more than once a day
Train,
Thanks for that link. I really needed to read that today as well. It's now bookmarked for me along with Sandi's 37 rules
Dev
You guys are very welcome.
Dev, I caught up on your sitch just yesterday. We are facing some of the same issues re: co-sleeping and nursing AND dealing with what appears to be "emotional setbacks" with our spouses due to cutting out the cake-eating. Sigh. I'll be keeping up with you and will drop by and say hello if/when I can add anything valuable. You do the same. Hang in there!!
H hung out with the kids all day yesterday. He asked me if I could talk later. I told him it depended on what he wanted to talk about. He mentioned L. And I politely said no.
Later, however, he told me that one day last week he told OW that he had to come home. And she cried and "was all f***ed up about it." And H said he decided that if he were to work on our M and eventually come back home, it would be "out of convenience, just like last time." And he says he's afraid he'd end up right where he is right now again sometime down the road. I felt like somebody sucker-punched me in my gut. But I just thanked him for telling me. I couldn't think of anything else to say that would come out "right."
I'm HOPING this is just more of him "rewriting marital history." Because that hurt.
Convenience? Ouch.
I mean, I remember when he came home last time. I remember holding him as he sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. I think of all I had to swallow for him to come back and live with me. All I had to fight for. And he's calling that "convenience" for himself now?
I don't know - nor can I guess - what's going on in his relationship with OW, but he went on to say that although he has been assuming full responsibility for the A all along, he's finally willing to acknowledge that "she didn't have to call (him) back." He also mentioned how volatile things are between her and OH right now.
That's the short version. He cried a little. He thanked me for loving him unconditionally for so long.
I'm happy it's Monday and I have another few days to breathe and work on myself before he picks up the kids again. I mean, I feel okay. I'm not beside myself or anything. I'm just wondering if this is a mountain I'm prepared to climb when I can't even prepare myself for these little conversations.
One of H's friends stopped by unannounced Saturday to bring back a tool that H had let him borrow. I told him H doesn't live here anymore. He was stunned to say the least. Said he talked to H last week, and he didn't mention a thing about it. He has worked with H at several jobs over the years and was around the first time this happened in 2005. He was SO mad to find out that this has happened again. He told me I don't deserve it, especially after everything I went through for H last time. He gave me so many assurances. And I don't know why - maybe because he's watched it? Maybe because he knows H so well? Maybe because it's a male perspective? - but it made me feel so much more at peace with where I am. He made me self-reflect and realize that while, yes, I could have done a better job at meeting H's emotional needs, I was a good W to him. I left that conversation knowing I really am a prize. And H is the one who really needs to sort out himself and his feelings. I'll be okay - maybe even better - after this situation. It doesn't make it any less painful or confusing now. But one day, if I lose my H this time, I'll know that I deserved so much better.
But for right now, it's just painful. The conversation with H threw me for an unexpected loop. I just don't know what to say or do. I feel like such an amateur.
He gave me so many assurances. And I don't know why - maybe because he's watched it? Maybe because he knows H so well? Maybe because it's a male perspective? - but it made me feel so much more at peace with where I am.
Or maybe God Himself sent that man to you, to encourage you and validate you. I noticed many times during the darkest times of my sitch, that God would send someone across my path that day who was EXACTLY what I needed at that time.
I'm glad you were encouraged -- you're a good woman, Train, and you DON'T deserve this.
Starsky
I was a good W to him. I left that conversation knowing I really am a prize. I'll be okay - maybe even better - after this situation. It doesn't make it any less painful or confusing now. I deserved so much better.
[/quote]
Hold on to those words. You are a good wife. You've offered forgiveness for one of the most devastating acts of betrayal. You've tried to be understanding and show love, kindness and strength for your children while trying to hold back your own tears. Yes, it's painful but you're much stronger than you think. Time for H to take notice of your strength.
Hi Train
no one deserves this sort of treatment
I don't know how intelligent people can lie and live so comfortably with themselves..
You were a good wife.. I was a good wife.. my h even said so..he said we had good times but he doesn't want to talk about them
at all
What is interesting is my crimes keep shifting..in 6 months there have been at least 5 shifts..
I willingly acknowledge my part.. he sees his part as being too nice !!!
So now he is mean and miserable
except he was better this weekend.. and he pursued a R talk that I did not want to have.
he wanted me to sign a form to do with banking I said i did not trust him and would sign once some other papers were ready.. he looked ready to be angry.. raised the issue of trust.. between us.. I wanted to say.. let us just discuss trust on the basis of the last 6 months...
but me poking at his sore points does not help me to achieve my goal.. so i did n't.
Chin up train there is no happy way to endure this experience I think.. it hurts..
Thank you, Starsky, so, so, so much for that.
I think sometimes I get so bogged down in marriage-saving books and rituals that I allow myself to start believing that somehow I wasn't enough. And obviously I *wasn't* "enough." But: enough for *what*?
Would I ever be able to fully recover from all this? The affair, alone, is hard enough to deal with. But all the hurtful things being said - I mean, he flat-out says her name in front of me now ... while still occasionally slipping up and calling me "honey" - are just piling it on even more.
I'm just questioning everything I say or DON'T say and every move I make - or DON'T make. I know I have to work through all this. And I'm not going to do it without making mistakes along the way. I also know things will be easier once H has his own place to take the kids to. He's having to work around his friend's work/sleep schedule right now, which means he either has to drag the kids all over town all day on Sunday or he spends time here. I knew I should have left yesterday - and I had PLANNED to be gone. I'd been gone each time he stopped by here this week. But I was SO tired yesterday; it's getting EXHAUSTING to do this. I don't want to tell him to "stay away" - and I have several reasons for that. Mainly, I've been legally advised not to rock the boat while he's still paying the mortgage. But yesterday, he was here, working on finishing an outdoor project with S7. And while I kept my distance as much as possible, I got sucked into a conversation I didn't want to have and wasn't prepared to have. This is like a never-ending tango dance. The good news is: I only have to actively fight it one day a week. So I guess my plan should be to MAKE SURE I don't GAL so much on Saturday nights (like I did this weekend) that I'm too tired to GAL outside the house on Sunday.
As far as H's friend stopping by, yes, God's timing is perfect. This guy is 10 years younger but emotionally much more mature than H. He left without leaving the tool here, even though I told him H would be here yesterday to pick up the kids. He said he thought he'd hang onto it. He said no one (besides me) will call H out on his bullsh!t (which is TRUE), but *he* will. I told him not to bother; no one can change him or make him see the err of his ways.
This is H's path. But you know what is bothering me so badly? I think it is SO unfair that H gets to cheat and be so hateful and so indecisive, yet he KNOWS he has a heart to come home to, even when I'm GAL and detaching; he knows me THAT well. How insulting is it that he would say to OW, "I've got to go home." He should be wondering IF he has a home to eventually come home to! Why is it that I love him even after all he's done but I've done *nothing* to have deserved THIS particular thing, and I'm having to clamor for HIS love? I'm exhausting myself by "GAL" and staying away and mentally figuring out my next course of action and reading every book and every article I can to figure this crap out.
It just doesn't make any sense. And it makes me feel like such a dumba$s loser.
Thank you, Lou and LaPoo. (That rhymes.)
My H definitely sees me as strong. I think sometimes he sees me as TOO strong and independent. But he knows I have a big, tender heart. And he's beating it all to he!l.
You guys are awesome support. It always makes my day to get some feedback and positive ju-ju here. Thinking of you all.
You are Not a loser! You know what H is losing out on by not ending the A w/OW. Time to change the way you view yourself in this situation. Time to put as much energy into loving yourself as you do with worrying about H and OW. Time to turn the focus point on yourself. GAL can be hard sometimes, but you can do it. Remember to act as if and soon it will come natural. You are not a doormat to be trampled upon.
Easier said than done, eh? But I'm gonna try.
Thank you!
Agreed all this advice is easier said than done,...
I find the advice makes me too hopeful.. expectations too high..
almost magic.. if I get all the parts of the spell right then the magic will work..
The arriving at their ex home and acting like it is still home.. I hate that.. lulls me into a sense of security. Seems like life as it was before.
I was acting as if ...and my husband called me on it said you are acting as if nothing has happened..
I am sure there is advice somewhere about not letting the WAS think you are a sure thing always available. I have not been able to do that. ? He knows me..the core of me..
Maybe one day.. but not yet...
