Just thought I'd re-post this for possible discussion in this thread as there's many different "takes" on how to handle an A, as interpreted by members of what MWD has written.
So I'm just reposting an observation I made on another thread on this board here, for any who would like to provide thoughts on what MWD proposes when it comes to affairs.
The following are what I read and how I interpret it:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I just HAD to pull out my DR book again and review the chapter on infidelity. I notice the initial part of it deals more specifically on spouses who are in piecing.
Where it gets interesting for me is on p215 with a section titled "REREAD THE LAST-RESORT TECHNIQUE".
MWD talks about the normal feelings and behaviours such as anger, pleading, etc, she specifically states "... the very first thing yuo need to do is to promise yourself that you will stop chasing, pushing, pleading and pursuing."
On p216 MWD goes on to further write:
"I know that stopping the pursuit and interrogation is incredibly hard to do. In fact, if you decide to do it, it will be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life."
and
"[i]Since yuo can't approach your spouse with any information you discover, you are only hurting yourself by snooping. You need to figure out what is so darn appealing about this OP."
On p218, MWD begins talk in the Infidelity chapter, regarding the "After the last-resort technique", wherein she indicates:
"Tell your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely." and basically goes on to describe NC, unless there are kids and only talk about the kids when absolutely necessary.
IF this leads to the AP to ask for another change, THEN would come the request for proof that the OP is gone.
Anyhow, I just wanted to put out here what MWD specifically says in the DR book regarding the handling of an ongoing A, prior to any reconnection initiated by the AP.
Oddly, in the online affair section MWD suggests that if you suspect, the confront. I would say this would be similar to an EA.
And basically, she says confront once and own your opinion and ask that it stop. If it does not stop or the AP denies, confront one more time...
and then try something different...
Again, not indicating that the LBS is to continue to badger the spouse, shame, blame, or coerce the sposue to end the A.
That's my take, anyhow.
I've also read where she says to install a keylogger if you suspect a spouse of an online affair, but then we're told her "never to snoop."
Confusing.
Starsky
That sounds like an attempt to catch MWD at contradictory advice.
But, since keyloggers aren't available IRL, then it certainly is applicable to online affairs.
And, MWD does say gather evidence. She further goes on to say not to use that evidence to attempt to sway the AP.
So to me, the keyloggers or PIs or whatever are simply to gather information.
Towards the possible goal of learning what is appealing about the OP.
Regarding snooping, on p216 MWD states, "You also have some investigative work to do. No, I don't mean snooping around to find out what is really going on. Since you can't approach your spouse with any information you discover, you are only hurting yourself by snooping. You need to figure out what is so darn appealing about this OP."
That is all I can find, regarding the term snooping.
MWD stresses the importance of forgiveness regarding an A.
"The lack of forgiveness imprisons you. It takes its toll on your physical and emotional health. It keeps you stuck in the deepest of relationship ruts. No matter how justified you feel about your point of view regarding your partner's insensitive behaviour, you are still miserable."... without forgiveness.
And on the AP not ending the affair:
"If you are considering trying to save your marriage when your partner is unwilling to end the affiar, you can count on receiving lots of advice from people who know about the situation. The will undoubtedly tell you to stop being a doormat and go on with your life...", etc...
And from my interpretation suggests that the choice is up to the BP and that "Fighting for your marriage under these circumstances takes courage, stamina, and blind determination. There will even be days when you question your sanity."
Yet, it is may be desired by the LBS to make sure they've done everything humanly possible... that's the choice of the LBS...
Its important to distinguish between snooping , spying , tracking and observations and confirming.
1. Key logger. Computer is used by the house. Then this is fine.
If the computer is the 100% owned by the other person or school or work then do not install a keylogger. This the difference between spying and confirming. You are also logging your actions as well.
2. VAR . Carrying a VAR on you that records your interactions with your spouse is legal. Placing a VAR in your car that you use is legal. Leaving one around your home in a room that you use is legal. Everything else is spying. And can cause you legal issues. ( This I would look up with your local laws )
3. Reviewing joint bank accounts , credit cards , phone bills. Legal.
4. P.I. Hiring a registered legal P.I. Legal.
5. Logging into their facebook , emails .... Not legal. If it is caught in the keylogger then you can read the logs. But you cannot take the info and log into their accounts.
If your spouse leaves and you give them a computer as a gift then do not use the keylogger any more. Turn it off. Same with the VAR in a car. You are no longer involved in the day to day activities so this is when it crosses over from tracking and confirming to spying.
And when you go dark.
You go dark.
Dark means no interaction. This includes your tracking and confirming. ( Naturally of course you are going to track joint assets and debts.... but one should not go dark without getting this loose end tied up for full protection )
I think that MWD does not give an absolute answer due to the laws around the world.
That's interesting, chatter...
Do you think MWD could specifically state that she condones gathering information where ever and how ever legally possible within your jurisdiction?
There are many ways to publish texts while still protecting the author, publisher, and limiting liability. I'm certain her publisher is aware of these methods so that MWD could otherwise pen her true sentiments, if that were the case.
Still, if one were to suggest that MWD may not give an absolute answer due to the laws around the world, if one takes a look specifically at the keylogger example, MWD specifically states:
"4. If you are convinced that nothing in your marriage will change unless and until your spouse is confronted with hard evidence about his/her behaviour, then you might consider purchasing a software product that takes "snapshots" of online activity for review later."
She very specifically suggests that as an option to any who feel that is the ONLY way. She also makes no disclaimer about the legal implications nor on what computer a person should or should not put the software. As printed, the publishers are well aware of the global distribution and the variations of laws within jurisdictions.
I suspect MWD is not at all vague about what she believes is and is not appropriate. I suspect that MWD's statement on snooping is very clear regarding gathering information and for what purpose.
MWD's two disclaimers on the above?
1) Be prepared for what you might find, it could be true and more than you were expecting or wanting to find.
2) The AP may not appreciate the intrusion of privacy and go so far as to use that as further justification, putting the BP back to square one.
Others may have differing opinions. The above is MWD's stated DB opinion.
Great debate KD,
Have you read Dr. Harley's take on it on the marriage builders website? He offers some advice that is consistent and some that is contradictory. One bit that is contradictory is that he recommends exposing the affair to everyone -- the WAS' family, clergy in your church, your extended family, friends, etc. The theory is that killing the secrecy of the affair diminishes part of the allure, and the exposure helps it end more quickly. He says "most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends)".
He recommends two plans for ending an ongoing affair -- Plan A is to offer to work with the WAS to repair the relationship and to treat the situation without recrimination or shaming. (There's more to it). Plan B is basically the LRT where you go dark until all contact with OP is suspended, but he says that Plan B is very risky because the wayward spouse may not return:
"The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward spouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder." "
Food for thought, at the point that your spouse is involved with OP, you're in for a marathon, not a sprint, and every stride is up hill.
Accuray
Thanks, Accuray.
He says "most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends)".
I think it's interesting that Harley states the above.
MWD states in DR the same stat and makes no reference to that stat being based on exposure.
In fact, MWD states she is strongly opposed to exposure, even though she does concede it may work in some cases.
And that is really part of the reason for this thread. To examine how some appear to be interpreting DB one way and others appear to be interpreting it other ways.
And from what I can see within DR as well as MWDs articles and letters posted here and elsewhere, MWD both does not condone:
+ exposure of an A
+ attempts to shame, blame, or otherwise coerce an AP to end an A
Rather, her works appear to specifically point at focusing on oneself, to the extent of otherwise ignoring the A and OP, for the purpose of improving oneself and become a better potential spouse, person, parent AND possibly more attractive than the OP.
I know that some truly believe that exposure and direct focus on the A and ending the A works. And as you note Accuray, there are websites out there for people who would like to follow that path.
Whereas here, it truly appears contrary to the premise of DB.
OK, I'm going to concede a little here. Hat tip to a post by Denver which had me re-read AtLRT. I can see where MWD's words could be interpreted as condoning the attempt to end the A.
In AtLRT (p218 of DR), MWD discusses AtLRT and indicates that the BP should really be at the end of their rope and before Ultimatum or simply filing, the BP can try this. Although the BP MUST be prepared to accept that this could end the M, quite successfully.
MWD suggests the BP to "
Tell your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely."
ie. Complete NC except in regards to children. We'd call this "dim" in some cases. So I guess if there are no kids, then this is NC.
Basically, the premise as described would be to show the AP there will be no R until the OP is completely out of the picture. And at that time, the burden of proof is on the AP.
So for all intents and purposes, MWD does suggest this technique as an option.
~~~~~~
So there ya go.
Learned something new...
Funny too... because I went that route and my W never did try to reconnect with me... so I guess I missed out on the part of the technique which is standing strong about no R until the OP is gone... lol...
pssst... MWD... there appears to be a third outcome from AtLRT...
KD - I've "snooped" if you want to call it that. I called it research. W and I always shared passwords and accounts, and at one time our calendars were synched up (though she probably had forgotten this). I discovered things that upset me, then had to carry that inside me, silently, because of how I found out. That was VERY tough. But I needed to know if I was, frankly, losing touch with reality. I never discovered anything I didn't already "know" from Ws actions and outward behaviors. But having the "facts" made more of an impression on "just-the-facts / don't-give-me-your-feelings" W. I suppose I should be grateful that we had established some basic unspoken rules about our phone and computer accounts - phone and web accounts were often left open, by both of us. I never had to log our activity. Maybe because W didn't think she was doing anything wrong....a hallmark of an EA, right? Other situations are different.
I have a rather over-developed sense of what's right and wrong - and I never felt I crossed a moral/ethical line. I wouldn't even if the roles were reversed.
As for what exactly to do in response to my situation, well, I spent plenty of time considering my options. I suppose it's true about most As ending after six months.....but in my case my W will be working with this crew for perhaps the next twenty years. Even if it ended for her, it wouldn't have ended for me. If I thought I could compete with Ws EA/career - that I'd have won - I might have made her choose right away. But I wouldn't have won. In my case "exposing" her EA to friends wasn't necessary - they saw it as clearly as I did. I needed time to get myself together - either to win the battle, or just survive the war. I don't know that I'll win, but I know I'd survive now. On bad days, I think about how much time I've wasted, and the years I just KNOW the stress has taken off my life. I can feel the resentment and get twisted up inside. On good days I'm actually grateful for all this - I can see how I've grown. I like who I am now. And I feel like I've finally become a man in full. Nowadays, I'm trying to just have more of those good days than bad.
well, too much sharing. interesting thread.
Hey SL, yeah. EAs are really tricky animals. Purely a perception thing in most peoples eyes. Like a MLC, many people don't believe there's such a thing as EA or MLC.
MWD is fairly clear that "snooping" (ie. secretly going around and checking stuff out on our own, would be my definition and I THINK the one MWD might use) is harmful to the BP in the sense that we may find MORE than we bargained for or maybe even find nothing at all, so the guilt of snooping would be compounded by lack of evidence (maybe we didn't snoop properly?) and lastly I would guess that that snooping takes the focus off working on us, which is a large component of DB.
In my case like yours SL, I never did find any damning evidence that the EAs went to PAs. And the EAs could have been interpreted as benign. There are those who will say that if there's suspicion, it's probably an EA. If it's a fairly certain EA, it's probably a PA. And so on. For me, the reason to stop snooping was I was fairly certain it was at least an EA, it hurt nonetheless, and my W denied that what I actually saw between her and OM1 was absolutely nothing. I could very easily be convinced that the EAs that I am convinced ARE real... are really just a figment of my imagination.
Obviously, gathering information is more an aspect of figuring out if there is something going on, just to confirm. My opinion is, once there's confirmation... then what? Keep snooping?
For those who keep watching that, and I have to say it would have been a full time focus for me, I suppose it would be to see if or when the A ends.
So... IDK... I asked my W, she denied, I know what I saw and believe it was an A, and in the end... it's her either saying nothing happened or it was OK because she didn't feel M vs. me saying it was and it was unacceptable...
And it ends in a stalemate of two prideful, stubborn people with no resolve... my efforts could have been focused on more productive DB efforts... and ultimately were...
~~~~~~
So there ya go.
Learned something new...
Funny too... because I went that route and my W never did try to reconnect with me... so I guess I missed out on the part of the technique which is standing strong about no R until the OP is gone... lol...
KD,
As Theoden stated recently in a really incredible post, NOTHING works ALL THE TIME. All we can do is try the methods that give us the BEST chance of (in this case) ending an affair, and reconciling the marriage.
I personally do believe in some of the other techniques, and think people would be wise to study the various methods and do what THEY think is best for their situation. But I also respect that we are here at MWD's courtesy, and so I therefore try not to advocate things that are anti-DB.
Starsky
Its important to distinguish between snooping , spying , tracking and observations and confirming.
1. Key logger. Computer is used by the house. Then this is fine.
If the computer is the 100% owned by the other person or school or work then do not install a keylogger. This the difference between spying and confirming. You are also logging your actions as well.
This may cover your behind legally, but I don't believe the part of the brain that can get addicted to snooping knows this difference. to me, doing this w/o your spouse's knowledge is snooping. A person can justify it any way they want, but it is what it is.
2. VAR . Carrying a VAR on you that records your interactions with your spouse is legal. Placing a VAR in your car that you use is legal. Leaving one around your home in a room that you use is legal. Everything else is spying. And can cause you legal issues. ( This I would look up with your local laws )
Same
3. Reviewing joint bank accounts , credit cards , phone bills. Legal.
Again, I look at intent here. If you are going through the phone records in an attempt to catch your spouse then you are snooping for all intents and purpose.
4. P.I. Hiring a registered legal P.I. Legal.
legal, but can you recover and can you handle the truth.
5. Logging into their facebook , emails .... Not legal. If it is caught in the keylogger then you can read the logs. But you cannot take the info and log into their accounts.
]If your spouse leaves and you give them a computer as a gift then do not use the keylogger any more. Turn it off. Same with the VAR in a car. You are no longer involved in the day to day activities so this is when it crosses over from tracking and confirming to spying.
And when you go dark.
You go dark.
Dark means no interaction. This includes your tracking and confirming. ( Naturally of course you are going to track joint assets and debts.... but one should not go dark without getting this loose end tied up for full protection )
i think a lot of this is purely semantics. the end result, the information you are seeking is the same whether is called "confirming or spying;" "whethers is legal in the eyes of the law or illegal"
What I haven't seed mentioned is that people can and do get addicted to spying/snooping. My IC told me that the part of the brain that is activated when snooping is the same part of the brain responsible for many addictions.
KD, I wasn't posting from the perspective that exposure was the right course, I was just saying "here's another opinion, what do you think of this?" Just wanted to be clear where I stand.
Here's how I think about it -- chances are when your spouse leaves they harbor some deep resentments toward you. Exposing their affair is definitely going to make them resent you more, so to me it seems overall destructive -- it very well may help to end the affair faster, but probably pushes your spouse farther away emotionally in the process and therefore makes it harder to ultimately reconcile.
That's how I think about it, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
Accuray
Sorry, but I belong to the "If I'm going to go down, I'm going to go down having given it my absolute best shot" school. One can point out all the limitations and reasons why "it'll never work," but I personally felt a responsibility to my family to PROTECT it. OM/OW are PREDATORS, and I felt -- reasonably, I think, considering how destructive affairs can be -- that my, my family's and even my wife's finances, emotional and even physical health were at risk.
I make no apologies, and when my wife ended her affair she thanked me for doing so.
Starsky
chances are when your spouse leaves they harbor some deep resentments toward you. Exposing their affair is definitely going to make them resent you more, so to me it seems overall destructive -- it very well may help to end the affair faster, but probably pushes your spouse farther away emotionally in the process and therefore makes it harder to ultimately reconcile.
First I think it really depends on the persons sitch.
IMO, there really is no right or wrong answer here. That said,I do think a person must consider a few things before they go down the path of exposing...
1) EA or PA
2) Has the LBS made
ANY changes to address some of the issues that the LBS wants to make. In short, did they give it at least a little bit of time.
3) The WA - Is the walk away a total duche? Are they the type to cheat?
4) Kids no kids - With kids it is a little more complicated.
5) Lenght of the A - did it just start...has it been going on for years?
I can go on and on...my point is that it really is a personal choice. I also believe that the LBS must be in the right place emotionally. Confronting in pure rage is not a good thing. Can they accept or are willing to say F it...OR are they going to become sucidal if the WA ends the M.
I also agree that the LBS must have enough respect for themselves to remove them or the WA in order to miminze the amount of emotional damage that is done the the LBS.
Just my 2 cents.
Eric
OK, I'm going to concede a little here. Hat tip to a post by Denver which had me re-read AtLRT. I can see where MWD's words could be interpreted as condoning the attempt to end the A.
In AtLRT (p218 of DR), MWD discusses AtLRT and indicates that the BP should really be at the end of their rope and before Ultimatum or simply filing, the BP can try this. Although the BP MUST be prepared to accept that this could end the M, quite successfully.
MWD suggests the BP to "
Tell your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely."
ie. Complete NC except in regards to children. We'd call this "dim" in some cases. So I guess if there are no kids, then this is NC.
Basically, the premise as described would be to show the AP there will be no R until the OP is completely out of the picture. And at that time, the burden of proof is on the AP.
So for all intents and purposes, MWD does suggest this technique as an option.
~~~~~~
So there ya go.
Learned something new...
Funny too... because I went that route and my W never did try to reconnect with me... so I guess I missed out on the part of the technique which is standing strong about no R until the OP is gone... lol...
Personally, I think that it takes a combination of a few different things to successfully do this.
First, the fact that your S is having an EA and/or PA is usually the result of something that is missing for them in the M to you. They go to the OP to find that thing that is missing. In my case, I didn't treat my W well, didn't make her feel wanted, attractive, etc. She began to confide in OM. He was listened to what I was not giving W and slowly began to give those things to her. Became her friend and supported her in moving out of our home. Once that was done, he 'was there for her' (Seinfeld reference) and was able to take advantage of how weak and hurt that she was after initially separating from me. W has admitted in the past couple of months that she sees now that OM was 'an escape for' her.
So the first step of successfully navigating this is to figure out what YOU were not providing to W or H that caused her/him to stray. Fix it and begin to show that you can provide it, that you can give what was missing in the M. (assuming of course that you can sincerely provide it and not just fake it).
For me, it took a very long time to show my W this ^^. If I had taken a tough guy approach, I would have only validated why she left me in the first place and strayed to OM.
Consistent action over a long period of time... while eating a huge sh!t sandwich. But necessary IMO.
Second, once you've had an opportunity to show your W or H what you are capable of, and what they may be missing out on, you can begin to set some boundaries. "I won't be a part of your life as long as OM/OW is."
Now, they have seen what you are capable of... you've caused them to hesitate... wonder about their choice.
For me, I went round and round in this stage. The problem is that there is usually an emotional connection with the OP that if very, very difficult to break. This was definitely true in my sitch. A second problem is that you still have a long history with your W or H... even though you've shown that you are different, there is still that history, that baggage, that hurt... and all of that just doesn't go away. OP provides them with a clean slate.
So there is this back and forth. Again, for me, this is what I experienced.
The OM provided my W with an alternate path for her life that had some appeal. Afterall, he gave her all of the things that I had not ... emotionally there for her, made her feel beautiful. My W said that he made her feel that she was too good for him, whereas I made her feel that I was too good for her. This is what continues to pull your W or H away from you even after you've shown that you are different. This happens because the OP will not give up so easily. This I learned the hard way. It was/is a battle.
W has told me recently two things that help explain this stage:
1) OM provided "an opportunity for happiness" without me that was very difficult for her to let go of. Why? Because of the fear of what was with me. The fear that we would go back to that if she came back to me. Again, the OP provides the clean slate and does not have to deal with the painful history.
2) I felt like home for her. This was the pull that I had. This is where the history with my W worked to my advantage. She has told me that no matter what was going on in our S, how bad things were between us, that she always hoped that we would work our way back to each other.
So, the third stage...
Take the new you completely away from your W or H. For me it was applying the after the last resort technique. Why? Because I was emotionally exhausted and just absolutely felt DONE. I literally didn't have a choice in my mind. I could not go on. So I told W that I was filing for a D. That was it. I began to move on. It was at this point, that I actually began to see that there could be a happy life without my W and my M.
W saw that I was serious and that she was in serious jeopardy of losing me... the new me... the me that she considered home in life. This is where, finally, in her words... she had an 'epiphany of what she wants for her life and what she doesn't want'. This is where some of the control truly shifted. Where I could say, 'I am done with OM... no more of him whatsoever... if you won't take care of it, I will.' I could do this without fear of making W angry or validating her choice to leave me and stray to OM. I could do this because I had reached the point where I was done anyway. I had looked over the edge of the cliff and accepted what was there. And W had seen a completely different 'me' for 18 months... consistent action over a long period of time. Necessary.
I also think that there is another way to do this last, third, stage. "Close the Gates". Basically you cut off all contact with your W or H, accept for convos about 'bills and boys' as Jack3Beans calls it. No convo unless it has to do with finances or kids.
Otherwise, you cut off the new you from your spouse altogether. And you begin to live your life. You let go of the hope and expectation that you are going to save your M and reconcile with your S.
The difference between what I did and this is that the D word isn't used.
So anyway, that is my take. How I see this topic based upon what I have experienced, and what I have learned from others experiences.
As Starsky said, every situation is different and has to be handled in unique way. But the general principles are the same IMO.
Denver
Just catching up here... well, just skimmed. Looks like some really good perspectives. I'll be going through this after work tonight.
I just want to put a strong disclaimer in here right now to all the newbies and others who are reading and absorbing the material, here.
Take everything here with a grain of salt. Each one of us has our own beliefs and moral compasses, if you will. It is ALWAYS your choice to proceed with or without DB, in a strict or relaxed way. This discussion is and was intended to be strictly for providing differing interpretations and opinions to "by the book" DB approaches, especially in regards to infidelity.
This IS a DB specific and focused forum and as is often stated here by the mods:
+ The ONLY DB EXPERTS are MWD and the coaches.
OK, I'm going to concede a little here. Hat tip to a post by Denver which had me re-read AtLRT. I can see where MWD's words could be interpreted as condoning the attempt to end the A.
In AtLRT (p218 of DR), MWD discusses AtLRT and indicates that the BP should really be at the end of their rope and before Ultimatum or simply filing, the BP can try this. Although the BP MUST be prepared to accept that this could end the M, quite successfully.
MWD suggests the BP to "
Tell your spouse that you love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely."
ie. Complete NC except in regards to children. We'd call this "dim" in some cases. So I guess if there are no kids, then this is NC.
Basically, the premise as described would be to show the AP there will be no R until the OP is completely out of the picture. And at that time, the burden of proof is on the AP.
So for all intents and purposes, MWD does suggest this technique as an option.
~~~~~~
So there ya go.
Learned something new...
Funny too... because I went that route and my W never did try to reconnect with me... so I guess I missed out on the part of the technique which is standing strong about no R until the OP is gone... lol...
Personally, I think that it takes a combination of a few different things to successfully do this.
First, the fact that your S is having an EA and/or PA is usually the result of something that is missing for them in the M to you. They go to the OP to find that thing that is missing. In my case, I didn't treat my W well, didn't make her feel wanted, attractive, etc. She began to confide in OM. He was listened to what I was not giving W and slowly began to give those things to her. Became her friend and supported her in moving out of our home. Once that was done, he 'was there for her' (Seinfeld reference) and was able to take advantage of how weak and hurt that she was after initially separating from me. W has admitted in the past couple of months that she sees now that OM was 'an escape for' her.
So the first step of successfully navigating this is to figure out what YOU were not providing to W or H that caused her/him to stray. Fix it and begin to show that you can provide it, that you can give what was missing in the M. (assuming of course that you can sincerely provide it and not just fake it).
For me, it took a very long time to show my W this ^^. If I had taken a tough guy approach, I would have only validated why she left me in the first place and strayed to OM.
Consistent action over a long period of time... while eating a huge sh!t sandwich. But necessary IMO.
Second, once you've had an opportunity to show your W or H what you are capable of, and what they may be missing out on, you can begin to set some boundaries. "I won't be a part of your life as long as OM/OW is."
Now, they have seen what you are capable of... you've caused them to hesitate... wonder about their choice.
For me, I went round and round in this stage. The problem is that there is usually an emotional connection with the OP that if very, very difficult to break. This was definitely true in my sitch. A second problem is that you still have a long history with your W or H... even though you've shown that you are different, there is still that history, that baggage, that hurt... and all of that just doesn't go away. OP provides them with a clean slate.
So there is this back and forth. Again, for me, this is what I experienced.
The OM provided my W with an alternate path for her life that had some appeal. Afterall, he gave her all of the things that I had not ... emotionally there for her, made her feel beautiful. My W said that he made her feel that she was too good for him, whereas I made her feel that I was too good for her. This is what continues to pull your W or H away from you even after you've shown that you are different. This happens because the OP will not give up so easily. This I learned the hard way. It was/is a battle.
W has told me recently two things that help explain this stage:
1) OM provided "an opportunity for happiness" without me that was very difficult for her to let go of. Why? Because of the fear of what was with me. The fear that we would go back to that if she came back to me. Again, the OP provides the clean slate and does not have to deal with the painful history.
2) I felt like home for her. This was the pull that I had. This is where the history with my W worked to my advantage. She has told me that no matter what was going on in our S, how bad things were between us, that she always hoped that we would work our way back to each other.
So, the third stage...
Take the new you completely away from your W or H. For me it was applying the after the last resort technique. Why? Because I was emotionally exhausted and just absolutely felt DONE. I literally didn't have a choice in my mind. I could not go on. So I told W that I was filing for a D. That was it. I began to move on. It was at this point, that I actually began to see that there could be a happy life without my W and my M.
W saw that I was serious and that she was in serious jeopardy of losing me... the new me... the me that she considered home in life. This is where, finally, in her words... she had an 'epiphany of what she wants for her life and what she doesn't want'. This is where some of the control truly shifted. Where I could say, 'I am done with OM... no more of him whatsoever... if you won't take care of it, I will.' I could do this without fear of making W angry or validating her choice to leave me and stray to OM. I could do this because I had reached the point where I was done anyway. I had looked over the edge of the cliff and accepted what was there. And W had seen a completely different 'me' for 18 months... consistent action over a long period of time. Necessary.
I also think that there is another way to do this last, third, stage. "Close the Gates". Basically you cut off all contact with your W or H, accept for convos about 'bills and boys' as Jack3Beans calls it. No convo unless it has to do with finances or kids.
Otherwise, you cut off the new you from your spouse altogether. And you begin to live your life. You let go of the hope and expectation that you are going to save your M and reconcile with your S.
The difference between what I did and this is that the D word isn't used.
So anyway, that is my take. How I see this topic based upon what I have experienced, and what I have learned from others experiences.
As Starsky said, every situation is different and has to be handled in unique way. But the general principles are the same IMO.
Denver
post, Denver. This is hard, hard stuff, and the forum is blessed to have you (and others who have successfully done it) here, paying it forward.
Starsky
I just want to put a strong disclaimer in here right now to all the newbies and others who are reading and absorbing the material, here.
Take everything here with a grain of salt. Each one of us has our own beliefs and moral compasses, if you will. It is ALWAYS your choice to proceed with or without DB, in a strict or relaxed way. This discussion is and was intended to be strictly for providing differing interpretations and opinions to "by the book" DB approaches, especially in regards to infidelity.
This IS a DB specific and focused forum and as is often stated here by the mods:
+ The ONLY DB EXPERTS are MWD and the coaches.
Jeezus, KD -- we get it. Are you applying for a mod position, or maybe hall monitor or something?
Starsky
True and fair, Harrier. I don't advocate snooping. It might be a type of addiction - ironically without the feel good reward. It was definately a sign of insecurity and something I had to get over before making progress. It never progressed past reading open browser windows or seeing who had called her.....but, to be honest, I'm not sure I could have moved on to DBing without it. My own personal weakness. Not feeling the need to snoop is a great relief, which I took as a sign of progress about a year ago.
Jeezus, KD -- we get it. Are you applying for a mod position, or maybe hall monitor or something?
There's an opening???
lol...
Just covern' my arse...
Its important to distinguish between snooping , spying , tracking and observations and confirming.
1. Key logger. Computer is used by the house. Then this is fine.
If the computer is the 100% owned by the other person or school or work then do not install a keylogger. This the difference between spying and confirming. You are also logging your actions as well.
This may cover your behind legally, but I don't believe the part of the brain that can get addicted to snooping knows this difference. to me, doing this w/o your spouse's knowledge is snooping. A person can justify it any way they want, but it is what it is.
2. VAR . Carrying a VAR on you that records your interactions with your spouse is legal. Placing a VAR in your car that you use is legal. Leaving one around your home in a room that you use is legal. Everything else is spying. And can cause you legal issues. ( This I would look up with your local laws )
Same
3. Reviewing joint bank accounts , credit cards , phone bills. Legal.
Again, I look at intent here. If you are going through the phone records in an attempt to catch your spouse then you are snooping for all intents and purpose.
4. P.I. Hiring a registered legal P.I. Legal.
legal, but can you recover and can you handle the truth.
5. Logging into their facebook , emails .... Not legal. If it is caught in the keylogger then you can read the logs. But you cannot take the info and log into their accounts.
]If your spouse leaves and you give them a computer as a gift then do not use the keylogger any more. Turn it off. Same with the VAR in a car. You are no longer involved in the day to day activities so this is when it crosses over from tracking and confirming to spying.
And when you go dark.
You go dark.
Dark means no interaction. This includes your tracking and confirming. ( Naturally of course you are going to track joint assets and debts.... but one should not go dark without getting this loose end tied up for full protection )
i think a lot of this is purely semantics. the end result, the information you are seeking is the same whether is called "confirming or spying;" "whethers is legal in the eyes of the law or illegal"
What I haven't seed mentioned is that people can and do get addicted to spying/snooping. My IC told me that the part of the brain that is activated when snooping is the same part of the brain responsible for many addictions.
Sorry Harrier I disagree. What you call semantics I call verification vs spying.
2 paths.
path 1. I think there is something going on. I cannot quite figure out what it is so instead of accusing I am going to observe and verify. Gather facts and then either work on why I had those thoughts or confront.
path 2. I am a jealous spouse so I am going to constantly check up on my spouse with these means when she has done no wrong.
A classic example can be.
Observation:
Teenage son school work drops , is always tired and no longer engaged.
Determine if the issue is that the boy is staying up all night on the computer , doing drugs or alcohol or is dealing with depression.
This is done by verifying what they are doing when they are on the computer, talking to teachers and if needed a physical at the doctors.
Then communicating to the boy about the issue and resolving it.
No spying and no snooping.
Observation, Verification.
Are you applying for a mod position, or maybe hall monitor or something
Hey Kaffe....just bustin on ya!
EXCEPTIONAL post, Denver. This is hard, hard stuff, and the forum is blessed to have you (and others who have successfully done it) here, paying it forward.
I totally second this ^^^^
Sorry Harrier I disagree. What you call semantics I call verification vs spying.
2 paths.
path 1. I think there is something going on. I cannot quite figure out what it is so instead of accusing I am going to observe and verify. Gather facts and then either work on why I had those thoughts or confront.
path 2. I am a jealous spouse so I am going to constantly check up on my spouse with these means when she has done no wrong.
A classic example can be.
Observation:
Teenage son school work drops , is always tired and no longer engaged.
Determine if the issue is that the boy is staying up all night on the computer , doing drugs or alcohol or is dealing with depression.
This is done by verifying what they are doing when they are on the computer, talking to teachers and if needed a physical at the doctors.
Then communicating to the boy about the issue and resolving it.
No spying and no snooping.
Observation, Verification.
BINGO.I'm sure someone will (again) give the usual "at some point, you have to trust." To that, I say
"Trust must be earned."
Are you applying for a mod position, or maybe hall monitor or something
Hey Kaffe....just bustin on ya!
Hey, didn't you hear? This is the DB SAT... and the person who gets the highest mark...
Gets a chance to... MAYBE... save their M...
To that, I say "Trust must be earned."
This ^^^^^ though... does leap to the assumption that the AP WANTS back... under the LBS terms and conditions, though...
It's a dead end road the BP doesn't.
IMHO, that is a MAJOR part of this.
None of this works, unless and until the WAS CHOOSES to come back. Which kinda brings it back around to, why would the LBS WANT to come back to someone who is "collecting info" on them, constantly pushing the OP in the face of the AP, etc, etc...
Which to me, is the nature of the interpretation of the method...
Yes, in some cases it works... and in other cases it doesn't... that's a circular argument for sure and usually ends in agreeing to disagree...
Which TO ME is why MWD first and foremost stresses about forgiving and providing a safe emotional environment for the WAS to come back to... A or no A...
Hey, didn't you hear? This is the DB SAT... and the person who gets the highest mark...
Gets a chance to... MAYBE... save their M...
Added bonus?
Saving yourself
Wow... that was a complete mess... lol...
It's a dead end road if the AP does not want back.
Why would the WAS WANT to come back to someone who is... etc...
Added bonus?
Saving yourself
too late... I've gone down with the ship...
Added bonus?
Saving yourself
too late... I've gone down with the ship...
Don't be too hard on yourself Kaffe... There are plenty of lifesavers around here to keep you from drowning.
None of this works, unless and until the WAS CHOOSES to come back. Which kinda brings it back around to, why would the LBS WANT to come back to someone who is "collecting info" on them, . . .
Well, my strong intention would be that they never find out (not talking about the "full transparency" stage of piecing -- that needs to be mutually-agreed-upon and understood), and I would do everything within my ability to keep my efforts discreet.
And if they did find out, as mine did? I would -- and did -- say "I understand you're angry, but everything I'm doing, I'm doing to try to save our marriage, and protect this family."
Period.
Starsky
Hey, didn't you hear? This is the DB SAT... and the person who gets the highest mark...
Gets a chance to... MAYBE... save
their M themselves ...
Added bonus?
Saving
yourself your marriage
There. Fixed it for ya.
Starsky
Wow... that was a complete mess... lol...
It's a dead end road if the AP does not want back.
Why would the WAS WANT to come back to someone who is... etc...
Well, exactly, and it ALL depends on how the betrayed spouse conveys and demonstrates that whole "etc" part.
If you come across as a sniveling, conniving, controlling a-hole who's spying on his wife, and talking to her family behind her back, and doing NOTHING to address your own contributions to the breakdown of the marriage . . . then no, it's not going to work. NOT ATTRACTIVE.
If, however, your "verifying" is but one piece of an overall plan that comes across as a strong man, doing his best under difficult circumstances to lead his family, including doing what's necessary to protect its interests . . . and maybe even if it comes across as a whole "I HATE to even HAVE TO DO THIS, but ..." . . .
Then
MONDO ATTRACTIVE. Such leaders are babe magnets.
It's gotta be the whole package, and be SINCERE and REAL.
Starsky
Hey, didn't you hear? This is the DB SAT... and the person who gets the highest mark...
Gets a chance to... MAYBE... save
their M themselves ...
Added bonus?
Saving
yourself your marriage
Perfect ~ Thank you Starsky
There. Fixed it for ya.
Starsky
Denver, that was one of the best things I've read here in a long time. I think I'm behind you and will need to get to the point where I walk away before things can get better. It's such a painful, painful breaking point to get to, but absent that catalyst I think you can hang in a stalemate for a long time. Thank you so much for posting it!
Accuray
About Trust...
This is me, this is 100% true in my case and I think, believe it should be true for almost everyone here.
I gave it back to my wife far too soon, it wasn't earned and it wasn't deserved.
Because I did that? I was a fool, and I was mad at her for what? Because I wanted to trust her and she didn't deserve it? Because SHE made me a fool...hehe...notice that? I made it her fault. When it was in fact mine. Wanting something badly doesn't make it happen.
I believe in Starsky's point...with an addition.
Trust must be earned by them BUT;
Trust must be verified, by you.
And only when they want it and only when you can give it.
I believe in Starsky's point...with an addition.
Trust must be earned by them BUT;
Trust must be verified, by you.
And only when they want it and only when you can give it.
.
Last nite, watching the Yankees-Tigers game, I was getting mad at Yankees lead-off batter Curtis Granderson for striking out so much. Then I realized, I should be mad at Yankees manager Joe Girardi, instead. Because Granderson is a wonderful ballplayer, who excels at many things. Leading off just doesn't happen to be one of them.
Sometimes we get mad at the wrong person.
Also. If your going down plan D.
Then you really no longer need verification.
As you found out the main reason why.
A third party.
So then you switch over to me vs. you
If it is plan Work on it.
Then your spouse should be offering transparency... To regain the trust. As Jack said above.
Wow....talk about food for thought!
Denver ( and others like LITB) it seems you got to a point where you were so done it didn't matter the outcome of the words or actions you gave to your W. You were ready to take the next step and go with it whichever way it turned out.
I think the problem for me, and maybe some others ( I don't know), is getting to that point. It's an in-between stage where we ( I) want to get to this point, but really are not yet there...even if our actions our showing it, our hearts are not.
And that seems to be a key point with many of you that have saved yourselves,
and your families.
To be completely honest, I hesitate to be able to say something so definitive to H. He is already with another woman...
I have only started DB in mid May, and while I have learned so much and continue to do so, and am a full supporter of the programme and philosophies, I think that how the affair is handled while the WAS is in it and ' happy' is probably much different than if the WAS is ready to R again and feels remorse or at least the desire to try and save the M.
Right now my H is in the affair and ' happy' and determined that this is the best course of action. Regardless of our kids, our history, etc.
So I have been dark, NC... ( except with regards to the kids if necessary). He knows I don't want to end our M.
Anyway, I guess what I am trying to ask/ say is that it seems like their are different times during an affair at which we do can do certain actions...?
Busting,
You've now known about the affair for 4 months. In my opinion, it's far from too early to employ the tougher stance. We are all different, but I myself wasn't able to tolerate more than TWO months of my wife's unrepentant affair before I finally was DONE, began dating, and filed for divorce.
Within one month, she ended her affair and asked what it would take to come back to the marriage.
Starsky
we're back to the same argument again, in a way - who does what in their sitch when.
starsky - you were ready - you were in a place where you could do that. most of us here are not - as MWD says - you can't say those types of things unless you are really ready for the negative outcome also.
you were ready for that right away in a sense weren't you?
so if one isn't ready - what are the alternatives, if they were to be put clearly and concisely for most to follow here
i think when you state it in those unequivocal terms as in your above post, it leaves a lot of us floundering as to what is the right thing to do then
there are so many mixed messages, and i understand that there is no clear cut solution that applies to everyone, so maybe the info should be presented with alternatives so that people can see that it is not so black and white.
the lbs's are in a fragile spot for a very long long time, before they can build the confidence and self-esteem back again in order to be in a position where other choices are as attractive. meanwhile - encouraging them to focus on getting to that place seems much more lucrative for them in the long run than saying that this extreme stance is what you should be heading for, don't you think? that is assuming that they are not able to be ok with either outcome yet
i don't want to challenge - just cannot understand what the point is to push that on anyone who is obviously not in a place to be able to do it yet
one thing that i have come to be grateful for during my sitch is the time factor. i can see now that if i hadn't had all this time i couldn't really have made these changes at the deep level that i have managed to until now. that has helped me still retain faith in some way. if h's A had resolved and he had turned around within a couple of months, i doubt i would be in a good place right now. that is something to think about in terms of the time factor for ourselves.
zig
so if one isn't ready - what are the alternatives, if they were to be put clearly and concisely for most to follow here
From where I stand, the whole DR book is laid out as a "step 1, 2, 3..." which is IMHO the reason why, things like LRT, AtLRT, Ultimatum, etc... are all late in the book...
That the premise is first to stabalize ourselves, then to assess the sitch, consider our own responsibility for the sitch and fix that and work on ourselves... and THEN... try to attract the WAS back BECAUSE we are great people... and EVEN IN LIGHT OF AN A, we can R in a loving, non-aggressive... and then perhaps somewhat assertive way... etc, etc... leading up to Ultimatum and possibly the LBS filing D... if the WAS hasn't done so, first...
That's just the way it looks, to me...
I do concede that we are all unique and will approach the same problem, some the same ways, other in their own unique ways, to solve a problem we are all here to solve... that MWD wishes to help us solve with solutions she's tested in the field, that have worked for others...
I don't know if I've ever seen MWD pronounce or quote as a success, a LBS who deamonized their spouse in order to get to a frame of mind that they were willing to use the use the AtLRT or Ultimatum or similar "high risk" methods...
IMHO, if the LBS is there... they are pretty much the same people I meet on the street who are D and bitter and angry at their spouses for quite some time... some for a lifetime... I think psychologically, that's a dangerous road for a LBS to travel...
Even as she does to an agree, concede that for some people... that approach works...
zig,
I can share my perspective on what the options are. When I got into this mess, I felt terribly guilty, I probably took on way too much of the responsibility, because I really WAS a good husband before. In any case, I figured if I allowed my marriage to go to sh!t, I better take a really close look at myself, or I'd probably end up back here again with someone new. Therefore, I dug in deep, and it was painful and it sucked, and I'm still not done, but the rate of change has slowed as I get closer to my goals.
Here's the options I discovered:
1) Keep working -- keep having faith that time and consistency will finally make a difference. The Marriage Builders website suggests that if you are successful in removing all the "love busters" that prevent you from making love bank deposits, and are also successful in meeting your partner's needs and filling their bank, that eventually, you'll tip the scales and they will be back "in love" and reinvested in the marriage. The site says that doesn't happen slowly, it's like a switch gets flipped -- but it can take two years or more! It takes crazy, crazy patience. I'm not sure I believe that, but they claim success stories. In any case, option one is head down, keep working.
2) Acceptance -- Accept that your sitch "is what it is" and just decide to live with it. Stop looking for improvement and "just be", taking what you're getting and making that enough. Some sites say that dropping expectations never works and you're just fooling yourself temporarily, but this is an option you can pursue -- just say "good enough". I think this more applies to a situation where you get stalled in piecing.
3) Move On -- Decide you're done. I was thinking about detachment the other day, and detachment is really a campaign to snuff out the romantic love that remains for your partner. As long as you have romantic feelings for them, you are not detached. Once those feelings are snuffed, you can truly move on. Once again, going back to Marriage Builders philosophy, eventually your spouse will completely run down your accumulated "love bank balance" and you will simply not be interested in persisting. I don't believe you can will yourself to get there faster, I think it just happens. That's when you "drop the rope" as Denver, LITB, and Starsky all eventually did. It seems this is *sometimes* a wake up call to the WAS who finally realizes that you really are gone, and are likely not coming back. It seems like that's the first time many of them really think about what they're doing. There are certainly many other cases, however, where the wakeup call never comes and the WAS does NOT come back -- unfortunately that's probably the majority of the time. The other issue is that if you've dropped the rope and your love bank is empty, you may not WANT them back. You're certainly susceptible to them for the same reasons you were initially, but now you've got scar tissue.
That's my $0.02 on your options.
Accuray
3) Move On -- Decide you're done. I was thinking about detachment the other day, and detachment is really a campaign to snuff out the romantic love that remains for your partner. As long as you have romantic feelings for them, you are not detached. Once those feelings are snuffed, you can truly move on. Once again, going back to Marriage Builders philosophy, eventually your spouse will completely run down your accumulated "love bank balance" and you will simply not be interested in persisting. I don't believe you can will yourself to get there faster, I think it just happens. That's when you "drop the rope" as Denver, LITB, and Starsky all eventually did. It seems this is *sometimes* a wake up call to the WAS who finally realizes that you really are gone, and are likely not coming back. It seems like that's the first time many of them really think about what they're doing. There are certainly many other cases, however, where the wakeup call never comes and the WAS does NOT come back -- unfortunately that's probably the majority of the time. The other issue is that if you've dropped the rope and your love bank is empty, you may not WANT them back. You're certainly susceptible to them for the same reasons you were initially, but now you've got scar tissue.
That's well said, Acc.
And absolutely about the scar tissue. I think THAT is what we can also work on and through, prior to exiting the M/R for good.
I think THAT again, is part of the question of how to approach and "work oneself up to" finally moving on. Doing it with anger and fear, or doing it with compassion and forgiveness. I believe the choices we make that lead up to moving on, really do determine the scars we may take away into future Rs and life...
Zig,
Why do you suppose that people who are very sure of their approach, bother you so much?
Starsky
3) Move On -- Decide you're done. I was thinking about detachment the other day, and detachment is really a campaign to snuff out the romantic love that remains for your partner. As long as you have romantic feelings for them, you are not detached. Once those feelings are snuffed, you can truly move on. Once again, going back to Marriage Builders philosophy, eventually your spouse will completely run down your accumulated "love bank balance" and you will simply not be interested in persisting. I don't believe you can will yourself to get there faster, I think it just happens. That's when you "drop the rope" as Denver, LITB, and Starsky all eventually did. It seems this is *sometimes* a wake up call to the WAS who finally realizes that you really are gone, and are likely not coming back. It seems like that's the first time many of them really think about what they're doing. There are certainly many other cases, however, where the wakeup call never comes and the WAS does NOT come back -- unfortunately that's probably the majority of the time. The other issue is that if you've dropped the rope and your love bank is empty, you may not WANT them back. You're certainly susceptible to them for the same reasons you were initially, but now you've got scar tissue.
That's my $0.02 on your options.
Accuray
As Starsky says...
BINGO!!
Denver, that was one of the best things I've read here in a long time. I think I'm behind you and will need to get to the point where I walk away before things can get better. It's such a painful, painful breaking point to get to, but absent that catalyst I think you can hang in a stalemate for a long time. Thank you so much for posting it!
Accuray
Trust me Accuray, you can hang in the stalemate (limbo) for a very long time. But like you said in another post on this topic, eventually you just don't have the energy to do it.... Your WAS uses up what is in your 'love bank'. I actually used that term with others when I made the decision to walk away from my situation. It is definitely true. But you can't force yourself to get there. It is all a process.
aah accuray - i knew that someone would eventually be able to articulate clearly what you have just managed to do.
i think the dilemma often is that these options are presented altogether - as if the lbs has to achieve all three states at once - and they are contrary to each other.
i think your post should be stickied and very very accessible to the newcomers.
it states really clearly that these are separate options that an lbs can pursue.
maybe i'm dense and slow on the uptake but i have never, in all the threads and posts i've read got the impression that these are different options to take. all the info and advice is sort of clumped up into a general lump.
as for what you say about expectations - i think you don't have them anymore when you are truly done. until then, one is just fighting having them and torturing oneself and getting down on oneself about them still being there. as long as we are db'ing of course we have expectations and hope that our sitches will change for the better and even for the best. otherwise, why would we continue to db for our relationships and not just do it for ourselves only.
i know the idea is that we should do it only for ourselves and if the was comes back then that's a bonus.
but in all honesty, how many here haven't at least started with the db principle solely to save their m's? of course, after a certain point the benefits of db'ing do change it so that the lbs starts to see how it is a long term thing no matter what.
in the end though, it is still about saving our marriages. and it doesn't seem emotionally feasible to me that if it can take up to 2 yrs or more for the changes to make a real difference to the was, that unless the lbs had enormous faith, expectation and hope, that they would be able to sustain staying in the db arena that long
otoh when i read through your post again, i find myself seeing it also from another perspective - that those 3 options could also be described as the 3 steps the lbs moves through over a long period of time. unless, like some, they jump to the 3rd step and skip the first 2.
i think that most people fall into the category of moving through these stages as it were.
but all in all, how you describe it really clears up alot of issues in terms of what stand one takes - you may choose one of the 3 or go through each one gradually
thanks accuray - we have missed your insights while you have been gone and i for one am happy to see you peeping in once in a while:)
zig
I think that how the affair is handled while the WAS is in it and ' happy' is probably much different than if the WAS is ready to R again and feels remorse or at least the desire to try and save the M.
Absolutely true IMO. The bottom line is that you will not be able to reconcile your M until your WAS's feelings for OP have been resolved. You have no control over this part. You cannot expedite it or force it. In fact, I believe that the WAS themselves have very little control over it. I mean we are talking about feelings here. They can't just make their feelings go away any more than you can make your feelings for your S go away. It has to be resolved on its own. And that takes time... lots of it. And patience by you. The question is whether or not you want to be there when it is done. Then you can start thinking about reconciling.
I guess what I am trying to ask/ say is that it seems like their are different times during an affair at which we do can do certain actions...?
Definitely. I agree with Starsky that it is probably too early for you to do anything drastic. You need to spend some time just being the person that you want to be. Hopefully your H will see that and begin to hesitate with the decisions that he is making presently.
Like I said before, 1) spend a period of time showing WAS that your changes are real, that you are a person only a fool would leave, and that he/she does not have to fear the past; and 2) then take that option away.
I'm definitely not saying that this is the path that all of us should take. I'm telling you what worked for me.
in the end though, it is still about saving our marriages. and it doesn't seem emotionally feasible to me that if it can take up to 2 yrs or more for the changes to make a real difference to the was, that unless the lbs had enormous faith, expectation and hope, that they would be able to sustain staying in the db arena that long
I actually agree with this. I got hit hard and often for having expectations, hope and belief that ultimately I would reconcile my M. But it was the only way that I was able to sustain for as long as I did. And I believe in positive imagery as a means to accomplishing one's goals. So yes, I do believe that you have to have faith and hope in order to keep going.
oh star sky! - why is it that when i ask you questions you always come back in battle mode?
i didn't feel bothered whatsoever - it was more that i want to find out what the different approaches mean and how they could be used.
did you read accuray's post? for me it cleared up quite a few things, if one sees it from that perspective.
i suppose another question would be - for someone who is in my position or busting's for that matter - are you really advocating that we should suddenly walk up to our spouses and say what you suggest we should?
and then just deal with the very possible outcome of them filing and pursuing the D wholeheartedly?
and yes - you are probably right - i, like most others here are still shaky about what approach to really really take. maybe your being so sure - so completely sure, makes me feel unsettled because i am not so sure at all what the best thing to do is.
maybe you are right - it's time to walk away, to go date, to not worry how it looks to anyone else, but how do you count into the equation that i am not ready to do that? do i do those things acting as if and hope that i'll become that?
i think your question deserves alot of thought . here is a 180 i can do for myself - become more sure of where i am at and what i want and how to go about it.
but as accuray and many others point out, it's a process for many of us - and it must have been for you also - but you went through it alot faster than most people do. maybe you were in a really good healthy emotional place. maybe you didn't have so many things to work on for yourself. but many many of us here have had huge personal issues that contributed majorly towards the demise of our R's, and those take time to work through and resolve, not to mention the time it takes for the was to reacognize those very same and do the same for themselves
so instead of shooting only questions back at me, how about answering my genuine concerns and then asking more questions that can help me to inspect both myself and my options?
i do value your advice, but when you arbitrarily throw it out here making it sound like it is the only way to go, then please expect people to ask more about it
i genuinely want to hear your responses to my questions - they are not rhetoric at all
zig
but as accuray and many others point out, it's a process for many of us -
Yes. That is the bottom line. It is a process and it is different for each of us. Every situation is unique. I have always said that one must take the DB principles and apply them to their unique situation. Take all of the advice that you get, follow what you think WILL WORK for you, and throw out the rest. That's what I did.
Starsky did it in 2 months, I did it in 18 months. I don't think Starsky is any tougher than me or prideful... sorry Starsky. I just think that his situation was different than mine. For example, I was a terrible H and BF in many ways to my W for 7 1/2 years. Not in every aspect, but in many. I caused my W hurt that I knew was not going to heal easily or quickly. For me, 2 months was simply not enough time.
Starsky was a pain in my A$s at times!
But he helped me a lot even though I didn't always follow his advice. Hell, Jack3beans, 25MLC, Truegritter and many, many others all helped me a lot. But I didn't always follow their advice.
So MY advice is not to follow advice blindly. Do WHAT WORKS for you and your unique situation.
And in defense of Starsky he did say that "we are all different".
In my opinion, it's far from too early to employ the tougher stance. from starsky to busting
denver - i believe you read that wrong. from what i understand of this sentence starsky is saying that it is not too early to take the tougher stand to busting
Like I said before, 1) spend a period of time showing WAS that your changes are real, that you are a person only a fool would leave, and that he/she does not have to fear the past; and 2) then take that option away.
and of course the crucial question - when is it time to take that option away? and how do you know it's time?
from where i am presently, my own experience is showing me something new in my feelings toward my sitch. for the longest time - that second part did not exist - it was inconceivable to me.
now i see the first real glimpses of feeling where i know that i could take that option away, eventually. but i also sense that i am not fully there yet.
it is a process to get there, and for the life of me, from where i'm standing ,one has to be one tough cookie to do it any other way.
The bottom line is that you will not be able to reconcile your M until your WAS's feelings for OP have been resolved. You have no control over this part. You cannot expedite it or force it.
This is my opinion as well. I'll note below.
Starsky did it in 2 months, I did it in 18 months.
I personally think that Starsky is an over achiever...
~~~
My take on what occurred for Starsky, and with no disrespect at all to how he handled his sitch and his belief that this really does work. It did work for him.
What I still say is VERY important is, two months into Starsky DBing... I believe that his W MADE THE CHOICE to R with Starsky. Which may just as likely had nothing to do with what Starsky did and truly was just the moment when his W did her own introspection and decided she would rather be with him and try to work things out.
I do believe that as we DB and better ourselves, it is core to building a potentially better M as well, if the M is saved.
It's just that, while they may be REASONS for the WAS to change their mind and come back and drop the OM... They make that choice...
Otherwise... the WAS/AP will continue to waiver... as Starsky has conceded in the past that piecing was long for him...
His W made the choice to step back in... but she still wavered...
Starsky... and Denver and any others who have R...
If you asked your spouse, why did they choose to R? What would their responses be? Would they say it was because of something specific you did, that could relate to a specific DB method? Or would they say it was because they changed their mind or decided it was what they wanted?
thanks denver for your replies.
i'm not being hard on star sky, i hope. i think that it is more a case of, well if he is so adamant about how to do this, then why can't i ask questions before i take his advice?
what you write resonates with me about how you describe your r with your wife. i too feel that i did things that it will take my h a long time to get over. he is not one to let go of stuff and carries every little thing deep within himself.
and just like you said, a few months is not enough time for either my h or myself to resolve issues within ourselves
I got hit hard and often for having expectations, hope and belief that ultimately I would reconcile my M. But it was the only way that I was able to sustain for as long as I did. And I believe in positive imagery as a means to accomplishing one's goals. So yes, I do believe that you have to have faith and hope in order to keep going.
This ^^^^ to me is the elephant in the room on this bb.
the constant 2 x 4's from everyone to everyone about not having expectations, not having hope etc.
in my honest opinion, it is downright impossible to go through this for as long as we have to without having some belief that it is possible.
i like what you said about the visual imagery and also what i quoted from you above - it is frankly some reassurance that i am in an okay place. i have beaten myself up way too much for having those and tried to force myself to being detached. (i don't believe i am alone in this)
frankly i think that it slows down our growth as well as slows down the process towards that real final detachment that comes on its own eventually. if we didn't have to work so hard at where we are at, and constantly try to convince ourselves that we are in the wrong place and only focus on trying to get to that right place, we could spend a lot of that emotional energy focused on healing ourselves and then naturally move towards healthier solutions for ourselves.
what do you think the effect would be that when newcomers came on the board they were allowed to acknowledge for themselves that where they were was an okay place to be - and the "pressure" of detaching and letting go would eventually come on it's own in it's own time.
i do see the value of urging them to get there as fast as they can, and i think that that is necessary, but there is an element missing here sometimes for many - that most crucial element involved in moving forward is truly accepting where you are at.
in the last few weeks after many months of trying to 'convince" myself that i am detached, i started practicing somewhat the opposite:
i started acknowledging very gently to myself, that yes, zig, of course you are not detached, of course this hurts, of course this is painful, of course you don't know how long you can stay the course (This comes form Pema, obviously) etc;..
and then literally just mentally embracing where i was truly at - and what i find is that there is a certain amount of mental relaxation that results - where you are not fighting something and trying to be something that you are either not ready to be or are not
i will say that it is seemingly a more passive approach rather than an active go-getting one, but after trying the second for so long,i think i am more emotionally exhausted at this point from that rather than the sitch itself.
of course, if one sees that the person is practically wallowing and needs a severe nudge to get to a stronger place emotionally then more proactive support is definitely needed
just some thoughts...
In my opinion, it's far from too early to employ the tougher stance. from starsky to busting
denver - i believe you read that wrong. from what i understand of this sentence starsky is saying that it is not too early to take the tougher stand to busting
Agreed. I did read that wrong.
Well, Like I've said, I don't always agree with Starsky. LOL. I don't know Busting's situation though. I haven't read the posts. Maybe Starsky has. Either way, my point still stands. Every situation is unique. Busting may be at the point where the tougher approach may be appropriate. Or she may not. Only she can decide that.
Like I said before, 1) spend a period of time showing WAS that your changes are real, that you are a person only a fool would leave, and that he/she does not have to fear the past; and 2) then take that option away.
and of course the crucial question - when is it time to take that option away? and how do you know it's time?
I think my answer to that is that you will just know. For me I was driven by my instinct. Most of the time, my instincts were right. I look back on things, and maybe if I pulled the D trigger sooner I could have avoided some of the pain that I endured. But one, I was not ready to pull that a trigger until that point when i did. And two, had I pulled it sooner, the result may have been different. It was all on instinct and how i felt. When I pulled that trigger though, it was not a tactic. I was indeed done. My W was the only one that was going to save our M at that point.
now i see the first real glimpses of feeling where i know that i could take that option away, eventually. but i also sense that i am not fully there yet.
Then definitely don't do it. It can't be a tactic IMO. You have to be fully there... D-O-N-E. Only you can decide when that is. But i think that you will know.
In the meantime, you do all of the other things that we learn here. GAL, detach, work on you. Live life and try to find some peace and enjoyment. And trust me, I struggled with that stuff A LOT.
it is a process to get there, and for the life of me, from where i'm standing ,one has to be one tough cookie to do it any other way.
Agreed.
thanks denver - that's what i am beginning to realize - you can't force it - you will just know.
it's good to know you followed your instincts alot during your sitch. that should be encouraged here. after BD, the lbs is thrown into such a turmoil that they lose trust in what their instinct tells them to do and only act on their feelings.
it takes a while to trust oneself again - after some inner growth and after many of those stages one goes through, until one can build the self-confidence one needs to move forward.
thanks again denver. so great that you could take this time to come and give your thoughts on these issues. i imagine many many people are reading tis thread right now
zig
Starsky... and Denver and any others who have R...
If you asked your spouse, why did they choose to R? What would their responses be? Would they say it was because of something specific you did, that could relate to a specific DB method? Or would they say it was because they changed their mind or decided it was what they wanted?
My would probably say two things... well, in fact, she has told me these two things:
1) That i did sincerely change. She told me months ago that she saw that I had changed, that her family had seen it, and that she believed it. Her problem, at that point, was that she was still unable to forgive me for hurting her like I had. At that point, she was unsure that she ever could.
and
2) That I was patient and gave her the time for her to learn and grow as a person... to figure out why she was unable to be happy with herself before. And it is obvious that she is not the same person that I first met. She is stronger now, more independent. It is actually very nice to see. I feel that she is more of an equal partner with me and not someone who I have to carry, someone whose problems I have to fix all of the time.
She recently told me that there are two sides to her... 1) the side that wants to pursue her singing, to travel, to be a free spirit, and 2) the side to her that wants to be a good mom, a good wife... basically the domesticated side. What she realized during our S is that the first part of that was not being attended to. So that is something that we are now both aware of and can address going forward.
In sum, patience, time, and change demonstrated by consistent behavior over a long period of time.
thanks denver for your replies.
i'm not being hard on star sky, i hope. i think that it is more a case of, well if he is so adamant about how to do this, then why can't i ask questions before i take his advice?
No problem. Just paying it forward as they say.
Eh, Starsky is tough. He can take it.
I got hit hard and often for having expectations, hope and belief that ultimately I would reconcile my M. But it was the only way that I was able to sustain for as long as I did. And I believe in positive imagery as a means to accomplishing one's goals. So yes, I do believe that you have to have faith and hope in order to keep going.
This ^^^^ to me is the elephant in the room on this bb.
the constant 2 x 4's from everyone to everyone about not having expectations, not having hope etc.
in my honest opinion, it is downright impossible to go through this for as long as we have to without having some belief that it is possible.
I believe that everyone here has good intentions. I became very good friends with a handful of members who began their journey right around the same time that I did. The BITS. Each one of them responded differently to different posters who give advice. One BIT might get offended by the hard line approach, while another might be completely fine with it. One might not get much out of the hand holding approach, while the other might find that extremely comforting. My point? It is a matter of personality IMO. For me? I have a thick skin and trust myself and my instincts a lot. True, I was weak when I first came here because I had just been hit as hard as I ever had in my life. But after a while, my confidence came back.
Some posters got on my nerves at times. But mostly it was when they were telling me things that I didn't want to hear. In hindsight, I can see that many times, they were right. I didn't want to see it at the time, but they were.
The bottom line is that I believe that newbies can learn a tremendous amount from those who have been through this. And sometimes those lessons come in the form of a 2x4. They are just telling you their opinion based upon their experience.
I will concede that I never bought into the idea that this is about working on us and not about saving our M. I eventually learned that it IS about both though. I never bought into not having hope or expectations. Without hope, what is the point?
i like what you said about the visual imagery and also what i quoted from you above - it is frankly some reassurance that i am in an okay place. i have beaten myself up way too much for having those and tried to force myself to being detached. (i don't believe i am alone in this)
I get this Zig, but I do believe that detachment is a big part of being successful here. I struggled with it a lot though. But I can tell you that my most significant progress was done when I was detached from my W and what she was doing.
frankly i think that it slows down our growth as well as slows down the process towards that real final detachment that comes on its own eventually.
I disagree with this. I believe that the healing process is assisted when we are detached. When we focus in on being detached. Listen, this is probably the hardest thing that we are told to do. However, we have control over our emotions, our actions, and thoughts. In fact, that is the only thing that we control. If we allow ourselves to do it, we can detach from our WAS's and their craziness. When we are detached, we learn that there is a happy life outside of the mess that our M has become.
I do prefer the term 'lovingly detach' though. In other words, you remove yourself from what your S is doing and the choices she/he is making, but you continue to love them from a distance. You offer a beacon of light for them to find their way home.
what do you think the effect would be that when newcomers came on the board they were allowed to acknowledge for themselves that where they were was an okay place to be - and the "pressure" of detaching and letting go would eventually come on it's own in it's own time.
i do see the value of urging them to get there as fast as they can, and i think that that is necessary, but there is an element missing here sometimes for many - that most crucial element involved in moving forward is truly accepting where you are at.
Yes, but again, the people giving newbies advice are just telling them what they know from experience. Man do I wish that I had been able to see, understand, and implement some of the advice that I had gotten when I first came here. I could have avoided wasting SO much time being obsessed and miserable. Not that I could have made myself happy during that time, but if I could have seen what a long haul it was going to be early on, I could have hunkered down and weathered the storm without AS much misery.
i started acknowledging very gently to myself, that yes, zig, of course you are not detached, of course this hurts, of course this is painful, of course you don't know how long you can stay the course
There is nothing wrong with being kind and understanding to yourself. In fact, I encourage it.
I'd go along with what Denver is saying here about people's good intentions and speaking from experience.
I believe that everyone here has good intentions. I became very good friends with a handful of members who began their journey right around the same time that I did. The BITS. Each one of them responded differently to different posters who give advice. One BIT might get offended by the hard line approach, while another might be completely fine with it. One might not get much out of the hand holding approach, while the other might find that extremely comforting.
It's really useful when you've got 2 or more posters who are looking at your sitch from different angles, depending on their own personal experiences.
When you are a newbie , you need to hear a few interpretations and be challenged to be objective and be sure you are not just taking the easy option.
Most sitches go on for a long period of time and the good thing about looking back on your threads, is how one piece of advice you may have dismissed earlier in your sitch can now be something you relate to and helps you understand better.
This is a really good thread BTW KD and I'm really enjoying checking in on what people are saying.
Bill
First...all my respect and admiration for this discussion and all of the time and advice you all here have given. I hope one day I will be able to pay it forward as well. Its really an amazing community.
Personally, I would like to be able to take a tougher stance. I hate what this is doing to my family, emotionally, physiclly and probably one day, financially. This is MY family, and I would do anything for them. thats the primary reason I came here.
However I know that right now that stance would only be a tactic. And it would more likely than not end with a bitter, emotional and angry end of the M. My H is not ready, able or willing to see a light back home. RIGHT NOW.
Before I found this site I shot myself in the foot more times than I can count because I pushed and pushed and pushed H about this effin OW. This OW right now sands in the way of my kids and their father, their happiness, their emotional well being, his emotional well being, his ability to be the best father he can be, she is my obstacle to my M. I cannot do any thing regarding my M, the actually core work, until she goes.
So even though I know she is not the reason my M went to pot, she is now the primary obstacle before anything else could happen. I want her to go.
I can't do a starsky Right NOW. I can understand it, I can want it, but ultimately I get denver as well about the instinct. My instinct says not yet. Plus I am not D.O.N.E. Yet.
As I see it, it seems that in several cases, the key to removing the OP is to actually being D.O.N.E. It's the appraoch on how to get to D.O.N.E that we seem to struggle with. No one want too prolong this state of limbo, and our motives of wanting to save our Ms our, children, our families, etc is to shorten the pain of limbo as much as possible. to end the negativity, the fear, the pain. To not have our Ms end and break up our families in misery, pain and fear and anger.
So we learn that one way to shorten this pain is to work on ourselves, especially when we have been given the gift of time.
And this will have a butterfly effect on our children, and are other relationships, hopefully our Ms. We need to feel strong enough, good enough so that we can be
done. And I guess that means detaching from the pain of the affair, even if the affair is not the reason the M is in the crapper. Because as it says in te book, if the spouse is not ready to end the affair, we can do the ultimate tough stance. But we must be ready because it is not for the faint of heart.
I guess the timelines for everyone is different in terms of when their hearts are strong enough for this.
Muddling through this.... I feel like an amateur reading you all!
This ^^^^ to me is the elephant in the room on this bb.
the constant 2 x 4's from everyone to everyone about not having expectations, not having hope etc.
Here is where you're not understanding the definition of "Expectations". There's nothing wrong with having goals, in fact, DB encourages you to write certain small goals down and how you plan to achieve them. Whatever action you do, you must have no "expectations" as to what your spouse will or will not do. It's acknowledging that they have a choice on how they will react.
Too often, people come here and "expect" their spouse to react a certain way and are discouraged time and time again when it doesn't happen. They start second-guessing themselves, looking at every detail, every correspondence, etc. And all it does is make them paralyzed through fear or indecision.
Having a goal is great, but expecting another human being to react in a way that you find favorable every time, may discourage you from that goal.
Forgot to add that if you look at the people who successfully DB'd. They had dropped all expectations of their WAS's coming back or reacting a certain way. They just didn't care what their WAS thought. It's at that point that you realize that the changes you are making, really are for you and their not fake or a ploy. Then that's when the WAS starts questioning if they really want this great person out of their lives.
Wow; so much action here, so late at nite! Have a little mercy on us old folks in the Eastern time zones, willya?
Much to respond to, but work is calling, so I'll get to more of this a little later. I do want to say that there's a misunderstanding as to what my own timeline was. Here's a quick copy-and-paste, from my personal journal:
My timeline:
I confronted my wife within 24 hours of having proof she was having an affair.
I exposed her affair within 24 hours to our adult daughters, and within two weeks to her family and her employer.
I re-confronted her on Day 60, and laid out a "No More Deceit" boundary, telling her "either you tell our daughters and your parents the truth about your relationship with (OM), or I will." I had evidence, and I told her she had five minutes to decide. Within two hours, she had told all four of them the truth -- that she wasn't "just friends" with OM, and that I hadn't been lying when I told them she was having an affair.
About a week later (around Day 70), I filed for divorce, after my wife stubbornly refused to end her affair.
On Day 90, she ended her affair, and asked "what will it take?" to reconcile. I laid out my short-list of non-negotiable boundaries, and we reconciled.
There were several fits-and-starts after that, with the divorce initially being put on two 3-month "stays" before finally being withdrawn. We also separated for a couple of weeks about a year ago, and agreed to date other people, but that was short-lived, and after one "date" (drinks with a former co-worker) I agreed to move back in with her to work on our marriage. We did some MCing, still struggle with the SSM thing, but have remained great friends and partners ever since, and celebrated both our 25th wedding anniversary and the birth of our first granddaughter in 2010.
Interestingly, when my wife tearfully asked for reconciliation (and thereafter), she told me that although she HATED me at the time, and was LIVID with me for exposing her affair, she understood why I did it, RESPECTED me for it, and THANKED ME for fighting for our marriage!
So I do draw a distinction between the time it takes to PIECE (months -- even several years), and how long one should put up with an active affair without consequences. The distinction I make in the approach that I advocate is to FIRST do whatever you can to "separate the addict from the source of their addiction," and to THEN begin the long hard slog of piecing. Because to try to piece with another person in the picture will be fruitless and ineffective, and to try to simply "stand" in the face of unrepentant infidelity saps at your self-esteem, your emotional and mental health, your family's finances, and the well-being of the children in my opinion.
More later . . .
Starsky
P.S. The above was my approach. Some elements of it aren't necessarily in the DB catechism (exposure, for instance). Reasonable people can disagree about that one; I was asked, and so I'm saying that it worked for me. In fact, someone asked upthread "What were the main reasons your wife said she came back to the marriage?" and that's a great question. I did ask her that. Her answer:
1. Losing me as her best friend. She said that my telling her that "If you decide to end our marriage this way -- by having an affair and lying to everyone about it, including our own family -- that we would categorically NOT be friends after the dissolution of our marriage. We would be civil towards each other, and effectively co-parent, but not friends and certainly not BEST friends. If, however, she decided to end her affair, and come back and work on the marriage with me, and we gave it a reasonable amount of time (say, a year) and we agreed that it wasn't working out, then yes -- we would probably be good friends eventually.
2. The disapproval of her parents and our adult daughters -- especially her mom and our D-then-18.
Please note that the brief separation "one year ago" was in mid-2009, not one year ago from today. It was during that time that I finally relented and AGREED with her that we should, in fact, date other people -- something I had steadfastly resisted all along.
Starsky did it in 2 months, I did it in 18 months. I don't think Starsky is any tougher than me or prideful... sorry Starsky. I just think that his situation was different than mine. For example, I was a terrible H and BF in many ways to my W for 7 1/2 years. Not in every aspect, but in many. I caused my W hurt that I knew was not going to heal easily or quickly. For me, 2 months was simply not enough time.
I would agree with Denver on this distinction. It's basic "Plan A"/"Plan B" stuff (see Harley), but the whole purpose of the "Plan A" period is for your wayward spouse to "see the new you" -- see your improvements, and see what they'd be missing if they don't come back to the marriage. I believe Harley says that 6 months is the longest one should Plan A (I'll have to look that up), I've found that some people can endure it better than others. For me, I simply couldn't continue to condone an active affair as it violated my own integrity. I DO think that the worse your marriage was prior to the affair, and the worse YOUR CONTRIBUTION to the dysfunction was, you do probably have to "Plan A" longer than someone who was basically a good and faithful spouse prior to their wayward spouse's infidelity. I was no saint, but when my in-laws asked my wife what her BIGGEST complaints with me were, she said "He spends too much time on the computer" (this would be on my laptop, on the opposite couch from her in the evenings, 8 feet away from her as we watched TV together) and "He's always at those damned ballfields" (I coached our boys' baseball teams).
Its important to distinguish between snooping , spying , tracking and observations and confirming.
1. Key logger. Computer is used by the house. Then this is fine.
If the computer is the 100% owned by the other person or school or work then do not install a keylogger. This the difference between spying and confirming. You are also logging your actions as well.
This may cover your behind legally, but I don't believe the part of the brain that can get addicted to snooping knows this difference. to me, doing this w/o your spouse's knowledge is snooping. A person can justify it any way they want, but it is what it is.
2. VAR . Carrying a VAR on you that records your interactions with your spouse is legal. Placing a VAR in your car that you use is legal. Leaving one around your home in a room that you use is legal. Everything else is spying. And can cause you legal issues. ( This I would look up with your local laws )
Same
3. Reviewing joint bank accounts , credit cards , phone bills. Legal.
Again, I look at intent here. If you are going through the phone records in an attempt to catch your spouse then you are snooping for all intents and purpose.
4. P.I. Hiring a registered legal P.I. Legal.
legal, but can you recover and can you handle the truth.
5. Logging into their facebook , emails .... Not legal. If it is caught in the keylogger then you can read the logs. But you cannot take the info and log into their accounts.
]If your spouse leaves and you give them a computer as a gift then do not use the keylogger any more. Turn it off. Same with the VAR in a car. You are no longer involved in the day to day activities so this is when it crosses over from tracking and confirming to spying.
And when you go dark.
You go dark.
Dark means no interaction. This includes your tracking and confirming. ( Naturally of course you are going to track joint assets and debts.... but one should not go dark without getting this loose end tied up for full protection )
i think a lot of this is purely semantics. the end result, the information you are seeking is the same whether is called "confirming or spying;" "whethers is legal in the eyes of the law or illegal"
What I haven't seed mentioned is that people can and do get addicted to spying/snooping. My IC told me that the part of the brain that is activated when snooping is the same part of the brain responsible for many addictions.
Sorry Harrier I disagree. What you call semantics I call verification vs spying.
2 paths.
path 1. I think there is something going on. I cannot quite figure out what it is so instead of accusing I am going to observe and verify. Gather facts and then either work on why I had those thoughts or confront.
path 2. I am a jealous spouse so I am going to constantly check up on my spouse with these means when she has done no wrong.
A classic example can be.
Observation:
Teenage son school work drops , is always tired and no longer engaged.
Determine if the issue is that the boy is staying up all night on the computer , doing drugs or alcohol or is dealing with depression.
This is done by verifying what they are doing when they are on the computer, talking to teachers and if needed a physical at the doctors.
Then communicating to the boy about the issue and resolving it.
No spying and no snooping.
Observation, Verification.
You totally missed the point her. No surprise. But you just added another word for it - "justification"
Like I said, call it what you want. it is what it is.
it's the same thing - you are still just putting a label on it to suit your particular need. There are arbitrary "lines" that move something from "verification" to "spying"
Everything is a moving target, everything is hazy, The end result is the same.
I know why people do label it in a way that works for them. Denial is a powerful force.
You totally missed the point her. No surprise. . . .
it's the same thing - you are still just putting a label on it to suit your particular need. . . .
Harrier,
And what "need" would that be? Not sure what you see in Chatterbug's agenda; I see someone trying to help and pay forward some of the wisdom acquired along the way, so I'm not really sure where the antagonism is coming from.
Wherever you come down on the whole "snooping" scale, I do think that people on all sides of the issue are well-intentioned and advocating what they are in the hopes of trying to save the marriage, and protect the family.
Starsky
<insert picture of Eric eating popcorn while he reads a very interesting post>
oh star sky! - why is it that when i ask you questions you always come back in battle mode?
Wasn't in "battle mode" at all, zig -- you'd KNOW it if I was.
I took your all-caps "SHEESH!" to be more argumentative than my upper-and-lower-case, simple question of "Why do you suppose this (someone's certainty) bothers you so much?"
Well, you WANTED me to ask questions, so I did.
In all seriousness, men are simple creatures and I'm probably on the simpler end of even the man-scale. I don't do navel-gazing well (much to the chagrin of a couple of my friends who constantly ask me for some deeper, more complex explanation for what it is I'm advocating). So my posts tend to be short and direct, and I know that's not everyone's bag, and so I'm sorry if I'm not explaining the "why" behind my advice as often as would be helpful for you.
I'm going to try to use one or two of your most-recent posts, and go thru it and answer your specific questions. Would that be more helpful?
Starsky
Starsky, thanks for posting your timeline, I hadn't seen all of that. There was a strength and certainty in the way you responded, which was probably as important as what you did and said. (I imagine it wasn't as easy as you make it sound....) Getting that strength and certainty is what I'm after, maybe what others are after. It's some of what the beginning DB steps are about, I think. And maybe the reason we all progress at our own speeds....
"No more navel-gazing!" ...my new signature line
aah so you were reacting to my SHEESH assuming it was directed at you?
it was not directed at you at all! it was a reaction to the back and forthing on the thread over what was considered snooping or spying.
but many questions were directed at you later, and so i look forward to your answers and yes they would be enormously helpful
incidentally as an aside - are you guys saying that if you had the opportunity to get the inside scoop on what was really really going on with your spouses, you would just refuse to hear about it? that's not a question directed only to you starsky, but to everyone
stay well
zig
(I imagine it wasn't as easy as you make it sound....)
There was NOTHING even remotely easy about it! It was the hardest damned thing I ever had to do in my life, and without the power of prayer and my faith, and the help of friends and family (and some awesome DB'ers) I never would have prevailed.
SIMPLE, yes. EASY . . . no way.
Starsky
incidentally as an aside - are you guys saying that if you had the opportunity to get the inside scoop on what was really really going on with your spouses, you would just refuse to hear about it? that's not a question directed only to you starsky, but to everyone
I would like to comment on it, however. It always amazes me that people will say:
1. Depending on what is really going on (for some, it's whether or not there's an affair at all; for others, it's maybe whether it's an EA or a PA; etc) . . . it's a
dealbreaker.2. Then they say they don't want to do what's necessary to find out what's really going on.
I guess "ignorance really IS bliss," as they say. Personally, I'd much rather determine the accurate TRUTH of the situation, and then deal with that accordingly.
Starsky
.....obtaining certainty is like doing crack for those with a bit of fear and anxiety in their R, so yeah I'd listen in. But getting the certainty this way doesn't solve anything for very long. It hasn't given me general sense of safety and security in my R. I'm looking elsewhere for that.
Great discussion..
detachment (the mighty struggle for me...)
I wonder if it comes down to actions, feelings, thoughts..
we detach as much as we can be taking specific actions.. GALing, moving forward with our lives, working on ourselves..
and by working on our thoughts... challenging and replacing unrealistic and unhelpful thinking (expectations, giving up our own power/victimhood, obsessing, believing we can not be happy without them, living in the moment, forgiveness, etc.)
but we have to wait for our feelings to catch up.. we can act detached and work on how we think about out sitch but for the feelings to change it takes time.
and i like zig's approach (with homage to pema of course) to be gentle with our feelings, to allow space for them and creating space around them for something else to form... and in so doing they pass through and lose their power over us.. bc often our frenzy and panic comes from not allowing those feelings, from being scared that we can survive them..
maybe that is why it is frustrating to hear sometimes that we need to detach.... it feels as if we don't control it.. and the truth is that we control parts of it but not all... we can control our actions and our thoughts, but the feelings which change as a result of the first two are not something we control...and they take time..
I snooped, or verified, or looked for evidence or whatever you want to call it (focus on action, not label) four times in one day. That's it. It was the day my gut told me there was something going on. I knew H's password because he had told me, so was it really snooping or simply taking advantage of the transparency assumed/required in marriage? I trusted H completely and had never before looked at his email. Haven't since either.
When I confronted him later that day, the second or third thing I said to him was "change your password". I had no further need to look. Why torture myself by looking again and again at what I knew was going on?
He knew he was doing it. Homewrecker knew she was doing it. And then/now I knew they were doing it. Enough for me.
So now that H's affair was exposed he had a choice to make - he was either with me or not. He chose not, so I told him he could not live in our home. CHOP! Kind of like a guillotine, for good or for ill.
I have not once asked him or his D about the affair, and there is nobody else to ask. My holding line has always been, "as long as he's not with me it doesn't matter what he's doing." It's the layer of reason applied over the emotion that keeps me somewhat in check.
And I'm scared to know. Scared sh!tless to find out that they're doe eyed in love and skipping through a field of daisies together, hand in hand, with flutes and bluebirds singing in the background and all that crapola that I know ain't true.
So if I had the opportunity to get the inside scoop on what was really really going on with my spouse, would I just refuse to hear about it? Not sure. Would I seek the information out? No, because I'm not a masochist. Would I accept it if offered by a third party? Maybe, but I wouldn't give it any credence. Would I accept it from him? Probably, but with a vat of pain killers and bandages on the side because I'm sure that whatever he had to say would hurt like an S.O.B. Once burned, twice shy you might say.
Zig ….you asked…
are you guys saying that if you had the opportunity to get the inside scoop on what was really really going on with your spouses, you would just refuse to hear about it? that's not a question directed only to you starsky, but to everyone
This question is posed, at least my interpretation, which could be wrong – as a Yes or No answer and I do not believe that exposure is a yes or no answer. Way too many variable to factor in and as each sitch is different and each person is different a “what works for you is the best answer”.
That said, here are my thoughts….
IF the LBS can handle it and not go off the F’ing deep end, which provide the WAS with additional “reasons”, then I think knowing is a good thing. You would at least know what you are faced with and can respond accordingly i.e. tailor your DB approach.
IF the LBS cannot handle it then I think it
may have a negative effect on both the LBS and the WAS. I have seen LBS pass out, become suicidal, etc. which IMO, may have been avoided IF they focused on themselves, faced the fear that they had and THEN found out.
As for me personally, I snooped found out and was NOT at a place where I could have handled it – If I would do it all over again, I would focused more on ME, MY issue AND THEN snooped and taken the appropriate action i.e. hard boundaries, etc.
The notion of “finding out” is a very delicate topic….it’s weird it is almost a chicken or the egg scenario. I needed to grow a set before I confronted; however, confronting help me (in a small way) grow a set. Make sense?
*bite lip, say nothing, bite lip, say nothing, bite lip, say nothing,*
I snooped and found a treasure trove because W did a poor job of covering her tracks. About all I missed was FB correspondence because OM had blocked her at that point and that deletes all your messages.
All the detail made me feel like total crap for a LONG time. My imagination filled in the worst possible interpretation of everything and I would fixate on it. You can't know everything, so all you'll get is bits and pieces, and for me, anyway, filling in the gaps was horrible and probably usually was overstated.
The weird thing is that I kept everything I found, and for the next 8 months would periodically pull it all out again and read it again. I wish I knew what drove me to do that, because it was literally like slamming your hand in a door every so often. What is the attraction to pursue that pain? That's something I haven't figured out about myself.
In any case, getting details can be torture.
My sister cheated on and divorced her husband, and he never asked any questions or snooped, he just accepted that his marriage was over and quietly moved on. I couldn't understand that at all at the time, but there's certainly bliss to be had in ignorance.
Accuray
(((( starsky))))
gimme the short version, ok ?
i'll be happy with that
zig
This ^^^^ to me is the elephant in the room on this bb.
the constant 2 x 4's from everyone to everyone about not having expectations, not having hope etc.
Here is where you're not understanding the definition of "Expectations". There's nothing wrong with having goals, in fact, DB encourages you to write certain small goals down and how you plan to achieve them. Whatever action you do, you must have no "expectations" as to what your spouse will or will not do. It's acknowledging that they have a choice on how they will react.
Too often, people come here and "expect" their spouse to react a certain way and are discouraged time and time again when it doesn't happen. They start second-guessing themselves, looking at every detail, every correspondence, etc. And all it does is make them paralyzed through fear or indecision.
Having a goal is great, but expecting another human being to react in a way that you find favorable every time, may discourage you from that goal.
^^^ Yes!
(((( starsky))))
gimme the short version, ok ?
i'll be happy with that
zig
OK, Short Version:
Betrayed Spouse: "I'm not ready!"
Other advisors: "That's OK -- you're not ready!"
Starsky: "
Get ready!"
Seriously, I wrote a TON of stuff, did a whole red-fonted thing that would've made 25mlc proud.
Talked about my own sitch, what worked for me, and elaborated on the distinction between how much time it takes for PIECING, versus you don't necessarily have to endure an open affair during that entire time. It was truly one of the best posts I've ever written.
Stuff happens for a reason. Losing it prompted me to just say "F-it" and post my Transparency thread, which includes links to my ENTIRE sitch, in all its naked glory. Perhaps that's what was supposed to happen.
Happy reading. As you will see, I did NOT always use short posts!!
Starsky
I would agree with Denver on this distinction. It's basic "Plan A"/"Plan B" stuff (see Harley), but the whole purpose of the "Plan A" period is for your wayward spouse to "see the new you" -- see your improvements, and see what they'd be missing if they don't come back to the marriage.
Yes. Wasn't sure if we could mention the book. But very helpful. And yes, that is what I am talking about.
I believe Harley says that 6 months is the longest one should Plan A (I'll have to look that up), I've found that some people can endure it better than others. For me, I simply couldn't continue to condone an active affair as it violated my own integrity. I DO think that the worse your marriage was prior to the affair, and the worse YOUR CONTRIBUTION to the dysfunction was, you do probably have to "Plan A" longer than someone who was basically a good and faithful spouse prior to their wayward spouse's infidelity.
When I say that I did "Plan A" for 18 months, it's not exactly accurate. I did show W the new me for that period, but I did not tolerate the affair. In fact, there really was no period of time when I tolerated it. W and I did not talk for the first 6 weeks or so of our S. I suspected an A, but it was not confirmed until we first started talking about R on Feb 10, 2011 (funny how we remember milestones). It was at that point, that W began trying to R, eliminating OM (because she knew that i would not tolerate it and that it was wrong), but her feelings for OM had not been resolved.
In May of 2011, when I found OM hiding from me on the toilet of my W's rental house, LOL, is when I first stated very clearly that I would not be a part of her life if OM was (apparently, I hadn't been clear enough about that from Feb-May). We were up and down on that issue through Jan of this year. W would say that she was done and she and I would try to work towards R, but because her feelings for OM were not resolved, it didn't work. So she and I'd S again, I'd reiterate that I'd not be a part of her life as long as he was, she'd 'date' him for a month or so, and then be missing me. And... the cycle would start over. That happened, what, 2,3 times?
Me being DONE in May of this year actually had nothing really to do with OM. He was still around in the distance, but W was not talking to him or seeing him. I do believe that she still had unresolved feelings, but she really was trying to separate herself from him. But he became stalkish. In any case, me reaching the point of being DONE and finally telling her so, was more about her inability to forgive me and really commit to the M.
I guess the reason I want to lay this out is that I don't want anyone reading this thinking that I just condone affairs, or that I advise that anyone just tolerate your spouse being with someone else while they also have a R with you. I don't.
But i do think that the lines on what is, and what isn't, an actual affair are blurred. And I do think that an LBS does have to assess their own situation to determine just how much they can tolerate or wait out. For me, W had left me and emotionally divorced me before she began her A with OM... or, began dating OM... see, it depends on how you define things and people have different definitions. Because it was not just a flat out A, and because I knew that I had heavily contributed to driving W away from our M, I was able to be more understanding, more tolerant, and was able to rationalize waiting it out. I just wasn't going to be an active part of her life while she did it.
elaborated on the distinction between how much time it takes for PIECING, versus you don't necessarily have to endure an open affair during that entire time. It was truly one of the best posts I've ever written.
Hmmm... maybe what I was really doing from Feb 2011 through now WAS really a long period of piecing with ups and downs... Never looked at it that way, but maybe.
You know my sitch very well Starsky... what do you think?
Its important to distinguish between snooping , spying , tracking and observations and confirming.
1. Key logger. Computer is used by the house. Then this is fine.
If the computer is the 100% owned by the other person or school or work then do not install a keylogger. This the difference between spying and confirming. You are also logging your actions as well.
This may cover your behind legally, but I don't believe the part of the brain that can get addicted to snooping knows this difference. to me, doing this w/o your spouse's knowledge is snooping. A person can justify it any way they want, but it is what it is.
2. VAR . Carrying a VAR on you that records your interactions with your spouse is legal. Placing a VAR in your car that you use is legal. Leaving one around your home in a room that you use is legal. Everything else is spying. And can cause you legal issues. ( This I would look up with your local laws )
Same
3. Reviewing joint bank accounts , credit cards , phone bills. Legal.
Again, I look at intent here. If you are going through the phone records in an attempt to catch your spouse then you are snooping for all intents and purpose.
4. P.I. Hiring a registered legal P.I. Legal.
legal, but can you recover and can you handle the truth.
5. Logging into their facebook , emails .... Not legal. If it is caught in the keylogger then you can read the logs. But you cannot take the info and log into their accounts.
]If your spouse leaves and you give them a computer as a gift then do not use the keylogger any more. Turn it off. Same with the VAR in a car. You are no longer involved in the day to day activities so this is when it crosses over from tracking and confirming to spying.
And when you go dark.
You go dark.
Dark means no interaction. This includes your tracking and confirming. ( Naturally of course you are going to track joint assets and debts.... but one should not go dark without getting this loose end tied up for full protection )
i think a lot of this is purely semantics. the end result, the information you are seeking is the same whether is called "confirming or spying;" "whethers is legal in the eyes of the law or illegal"
What I haven't seed mentioned is that people can and do get addicted to spying/snooping. My IC told me that the part of the brain that is activated when snooping is the same part of the brain responsible for many addictions.
Sorry Harrier I disagree. What you call semantics I call verification vs spying.
2 paths.
path 1. I think there is something going on. I cannot quite figure out what it is so instead of accusing I am going to observe and verify. Gather facts and then either work on why I had those thoughts or confront.
path 2. I am a jealous spouse so I am going to constantly check up on my spouse with these means when she has done no wrong.
A classic example can be.
Observation:
Teenage son school work drops , is always tired and no longer engaged.
Determine if the issue is that the boy is staying up all night on the computer , doing drugs or alcohol or is dealing with depression.
This is done by verifying what they are doing when they are on the computer, talking to teachers and if needed a physical at the doctors.
Then communicating to the boy about the issue and resolving it.
No spying and no snooping.
Observation, Verification.
You totally missed the point her. No surprise. But you just added another word for it - "justification"
Like I said, call it what you want. it is what it is.
it's the same thing - you are still just putting a label on it to suit your particular need. There are arbitrary "lines" that move something from "verification" to "spying"
Everything is a moving target, everything is hazy, The end result is the same.
I know why people do label it in a way that works for them. Denial is a powerful force.
No particular need.
I felt something was up.
So I gathered my info. Observations on behavior changes, new interests. I knew something was up so I installed a key logger on my computer.
Read the outgoing words typed on the computer.
Then I confronted.
I fail to see denial or anything else. So lets agree to disagree and end this conversation on our opinions on this subject.
incidentally as an aside - are you guys saying that if you had the opportunity to get the inside scoop on what was really really going on with your spouses, you would just refuse to hear about it? that's not a question directed only to you starsky, but to everyone
stay well
zig
I would not want specifics. I know enough. But I think that this is a matter of personal preference.
Hi Zig.
I think one of the issues that you need to address is being stuck in recovery stage.
One of the biggest black holes going. It can suck you in Recovery and you need to recover from recovery.
See you get comfortable.
It becomes habit forming. You write and talk about your self recovery , blow up non issues to become important. You find others who are remaining in recovery stage.
And you just stay there.
It becomes who you are. And if you move onto the next stage. You lose that world. Fear takes over. You stay in recovery. Cause here it is safe. The martyr syndrome takes over.
I can see you having to deal with this at some point down the road.
elaborated on the distinction between how much time it takes for PIECING, versus you don't necessarily have to endure an open affair during that entire time. It was truly one of the best posts I've ever written.
Hmmm... maybe what I was really doing from Feb 2011 through now WAS really a long period of piecing with ups and downs... Never looked at it that way, but maybe.
You know my sitch very well Starsky... what do you think?
Yes, I think that's accurate. For those that don't have as clear-cut of lines drawn between the "affair" stage and the "reconcilation" stage (for example, wayward spouse has fits and starts of no-contact with OP), I do think there is overlap then.
More accurately, though, I think what you have is ONE person piecing -- in this case, YOU -- while the other is still wayward. Even if they ATTEMPT to begin piecing/reconcilation, their continued contact with OM/OW sets them back and keeps their PEAs flowing and they remain largely blocked to noticing the betrayed spouse's improvements.
Starsky
Zig ….you asked…
are you guys saying that if you had the opportunity to get the inside scoop on what was really really going on with your spouses, you would just refuse to hear about it? that's not a question directed only to you starsky, but to everyone
This question is posed, at least my interpretation, which could be wrong – as a Yes or No answer and I do not believe that exposure is a yes or no answer. Way too many variable to factor in and as each sitch is different and each person is different a “what works for you is the best answer”.
That said, here are my thoughts….
IF the LBS can handle it and not go off the F’ing deep end, which provide the WAS with additional “reasons”, then I think knowing is a good thing. You would at least know what you are faced with and can respond accordingly i.e. tailor your DB approach.
IF the LBS cannot handle it then I think it
may have a negative effect on both the LBS and the WAS. I have seen LBS pass out, become suicidal, etc. which IMO, may have been avoided IF they focused on themselves, faced the fear that they had and THEN found out.
As for me personally, I snooped found out and was NOT at a place where I could have handled it – If I would do it all over again, I would focused more on ME, MY issue AND THEN snooped and taken the appropriate action i.e. hard boundaries, etc.
The notion of “finding out” is a very delicate topic….it’s weird it is almost a chicken or the egg scenario. I needed to grow a set before I confronted; however, confronting help me (in a small way) grow a set. Make sense?
Popcorn so early in the moring Eric??
Maybe I misinterpreted this question by Zig. I have a tendency to quickly read through these posts these days and do absolutely no editing of my own posts
Let me expand on my answer. YES, I wanted to know the truth about my W's R with OM. She was very honest and upfront with me about it when we sat down and had dinner in Feb of 11, after about 6 weeks of very little contact. It hurt like a SOB and I had to excuse myself to go to the bathroom so W did not see me cry. Spent that entire night awake, by myself, banging my fists on the floor, and crying. It was horrible.
But I was glad that she was honest with me.
From that time through Jan... the last time that I really had to deal with the OM issue... There were other times when W was brutally honest with me about not being done with R. There were times when she omitted the truth and I busted her on it because my instincts had told me to snoop/verify... whatever you want to call it. But she would be brutally honest when I confronted. But I wanted to know the truth. Yes.
During times when we worked on piecing or towards piecing, W and I had multiple conversations about her R with OM. I think that we needed to discuss it because it was important for me, for us, to understand why that had happened. It was important to understand what OM had given to W that I hadn't. It was important for me to understand. And it was important for W and I to understand so that we could decide if our M was capable of providing that for her.
Again, she was brutally honest. We went to a M retreat in March and I remember one particular conversation. It was about emotional intimacy and how it affects physical intimacy. You can imagine that this was not a pleasant conversation for me to have with my W. But I learned so much about her from that conversation.... and... we are not enjoying the fruits of what I learned.
But it was horrible at the time.
I still have flashbacks to all of these brutal truth moments. I'm pretty sure that I have PTSD from it all. I mean that. But it was all so important to the progress of my situation. I would not deny them.
BUT... I never, ever, ever, want specifics on the physical part of it. Never. My imagination is probably worse than the actual truth, but I don't need to take the chance that I am wrong. And there simply is no reason to have that conversation.
About Trust...
This is me, this is 100% true in my case and I think, believe it should be true for almost everyone here.
I gave it back to my wife far too soon, it wasn't earned and it wasn't deserved.
Because I did that? I was a fool, and I was mad at her for what? Because I wanted to trust her and she didn't deserve it? Because SHE made me a fool...hehe...notice that? I made it her fault. When it was in fact mine. Wanting something badly doesn't make it happen.
I believe in Starsky's point...with an addition.
Trust must be earned by them BUT;
Trust must be verified, by you.
And only when they want it and only when you can give it.
So true JTB. I made the same mistake. Trusted too soon, did not verify. And what happened? H started the affair back up again about two weeks after he came back home to 'reconcile.' I blame myself. I wanted things to go back to normal overnight, without doing the hard work and having the tough conversations with H. I was a doormat because I was just so happy he was back home.
So true JTB. I made the same mistake. Trusted too soon, did not verify. And what happened? H started the affair back up again about two weeks after he came back home to 'reconcile.' I blame myself. I wanted things to go back to normal overnight, without doing the hard work and having the tough conversations with H. I was a doormat because I was just so happy he was back home.
This happens very, very, VERY often.
I'm only on like post 15,000 or so of this thread and I am sure people saw this and will spotlight it...
Starsky, Denver, LITB, I think Jack and even 25 (who has been absent this topic) do certainly have one thing in common...
Their spouses confided that what really did convince them to come back, was not shame, financial loss, fear of being alone, etc, etc...
Rather, it was fear, yes... it was the fear of loosing their best friend, a great person, the love of their life, etc...
And I'd say that was in the face of an OP...
The LBS really does need to present as someone the WAS might desire, or desire more than the alternative, for them to first change their mind... and may or may not be important the LBS takes the tough stance of closing the door metaphorically... some DO come back before the door is closed... others may waver and might need that incentive...
Starsky, I do want to bring something up specifically with you, because your sitch was, for all intents and purposes quick over to the positive and (I don't know your position on this except for responsibility regardless, yet I do mention it for analytical purposes) your W was apparently not MLC.
And yes, at this time, at least for you, this is somewhat moot... what you did worked, and for you that's what matters... I just mean that in a subjective kind of way...
What I wonder though is... I know this sounds crazy... your W still remember the good guy you were when you went AtLRT and Ultimatum on her...
Do you believe that is likely?
I ask because I do wonder at the speed it worked for you and your W's "reason" (your charm and wit) for choosing to R.
Starsky, I do want to bring something up specifically with you, because your sitch was, for all intents and purposes quick over to the positive and (I don't know your position on this except for responsibility regardless, yet I do mention it for analytical purposes) your W was apparently not MLC.
And yes, at this time, at least for you, this is somewhat moot... what you did worked, and for you that's what matters... I just mean that in a subjective kind of way...
What I wonder though is... I know this sounds crazy... your W still remember the good guy you were when you went AtLRT and Ultimatum on her...
Do you believe that is likely?
I ask because I do wonder at the speed it worked for you and your W's "reason" (your charm and wit) for choosing to R.
I'm sorry, you lost me KD.
Just to add that MLC doesn't have to last "years". In fact, it can last just a few months depending on the person's willingness to accept their life changes. Again, MLC is not a disease, it's a transitional period which some people handle better than others.
in the end though, it is still about saving our marriages. and it doesn't seem emotionally feasible to me that if it can take up to 2 yrs or more for the changes to make a real difference to the was, that unless the lbs had enormous faith, expectation and hope, that they would be able to sustain staying in the db arena that long
Wanted to pull this out for a spotlight, as well.
I think that most who read MWD's books understand how PRO-M she really is (or opposed to D, depending on your desired perspective).
It appears to me that, again, while she does state that she agrees that in some cases, D is the right option (and she states abuse as being one of the few reasons)... I'd guess that for MWD, if it took 5 years to DB and save the M... or more... then a success is a success, a M is saved, and her job is done...
I think there's also something important to note about the books and this site...
It is my opinion that, many people who find their way here... well... they probably should have read the DB/DR books a year or two before the registered on this site. If only more people were more proactive in working on their M... BEFORE it needed work...
Anyhow, for that reason, it seems that many people who come here are probably already due for LRT, the 37 rules, etc... AND... a lot of damage already done with broken trust, infidelity, perhaps some form of abuse...
So when they come here, there's huge amounts of fear in them which may come out in the form of clinging, controlling, snooping, daemonizing their spouse, anger, even possible suicidal or violent tendencies, major depression, etc...
Part of why a lot of us, I'd say pretty much all the vets, promote a "chill first" support...
Anyhow, I suspect that for some who read the books early enough, and I think we see a lot of it in the "success" forums... some GAL here, a 180 or two there, and everything is peaches in their M... here... not so much...
So while some newbies we see who come here, who are over the top po'd at their WASs... it almost seems that AtLRT might be the right option. I just wonder if their WAS will remember and miss and want the good person they might have been... or if that LBS might be honest enough as some of our members have become, to admit how serious and harmful to their M some of their past behaviours may have been...
Just to add that MLC doesn't have to last "years". In fact, it can last just a few months depending on the person's willingness to accept their life changes. Again, MLC is not a disease, it's a transitional period which some people handle better than others.
I do agree, bond. I know those of us who talk about MLC do stress the crises part. I personally look for transition OR MLC, because IMHO, they should be handled differently.
I am actually looking at some crises tools to see if there might be an application for those who have a MLC partner.
Let me pull out the important part:
I'm sorry, you lost me KD.
Was your W's A in the midst of a "good" M, where she knew you were a good man? And that she really was "exploring options", at least initially, rather than actively getting herself out of the M?
Did that make more sense?
I'd guess that for MWD, if it took 5 years to DB and save the M... or more... then a success is a success, a M is saved, and her job is done...
I think Oldtimer wrote about this once -- that the WAS and the LBS roles are really closer together than many think and they will often reverse given enough time. My MC also said that the tragedy is how long it takes to heal a relationship. He said that 95% of the time one of the two give up before *sufficient* time has past. The problem is that there is no rule for what is sufficient, because there are so many variables. I think a lot of it has to do with just how bad things got, and how long the "bad" state persisted before it blew up. If you had a bad argument and were asked for divorce in the heat of passion, that's going to be quicker to turnaround than a spouse who was dissatisfied and resentful for 10 years!
It is my opinion that, many people who find their way here... well... they probably should have read the DB/DR books a year or two before the registered on this site. If only more people were more proactive in working on their M... BEFORE it needed work...
Yeah, I read that 95% of the time people are starting marriage counseling 2 years too late. My good friend's wife had the foresight to see that if their current marriage trend continued, they would get into trouble even though things weren't bad yet. She made them go to couples therapy and it actually pretty quickly made everything a lot better. After the bomb it seems to have a really crappy success rate.
I think like anything else, people don't believe it can happen to them -- I certainly didn't. Reading self help books would feel like asking for trouble where none exists. I certainly thought this kind of thing would *never* happen to me, so I had no motivation to even think about addressing it before it was too late.
So when they come here, there's huge amounts of fear in them which may come out in the form of clinging, controlling, snooping, daemonizing their spouse, anger, even possible suicidal or violent tendencies, major depression, etc...
Part of why a lot of us, I'd say pretty much all the vets, promote a "chill first" support...
It seems that in most cases its impossible for a newbie to chill. I don't know how to help people with that, I don't think we can, they have to go through it and come out the other side. From my perspective, all we're trying to do is help them to minimize or avoid any further damage while they panic.
Still not sure I understand the second part of that, but I'd categorize our marriage as "in a rut" when she had her affair. She had never been good at WOAs (words of affirmation), and I finally stopped complimenting her. And I stopped pursuing her for sex, because she never showed any interest. She wanted to be pursued.
But no abuse or infidelity on my part. Her two biggest complaints? "He's always on his computer!" (on the opposite couch in the same room as her, usually watching the same tv show). And "He's always at those damned ballfields!" (I coached our sons' youth baseball teams).
So I wouldn't say it was horrible, but it wasn't as strong as it was in our early years. Pretty typical.
Starsky
Dr. Jim Conway and his wife Sally (deceased) pretty much wrote the book on Midlife Crisis. Reading their research is a good place to start.
Thanks Starsky, you did answer the nature of my question.
Yes, Conway's stuff is good (of course) and some of the MLC empathetic resources on the web and on paper are helpful, as well. Of course, so is the stuff here and in MWD's published works.
My personal perspective on MLC is, as you stated, it's transition... just not being handled well. The way past transition, just like MLC, has to be THROUGH it.
I do agree that an MLCer is responsible and accountable for their actions. MLC is not an excuse. Still, with MLC, it is dealing with someone who is deeply depressed and operating in many ways from a panic / deep fear state.
I have not yet found a resource that suggests tools or methods to reduce the crises to what might be a more "stable" transition. And from the perspective of a MLCer in an A, I think would completely change the playing field.
Just to add that MLC doesn't have to last "years". In fact, it can last just a few months depending on the person's willingness to accept their life changes. Again, MLC is not a disease, it's a transitional period which some people handle better than others.
I do agree, bond. I know those of us who talk about MLC do stress the crises part. I personally look for transition OR MLC, because IMHO, they should be handled differently.
I am actually looking at some crises tools to see if there might be an application for those who have a MLC partner.
MLC is an opinion. It has never been proven. From my studies and from conversations with my peers in this area. Some pass it off as an chemical imbalance , others childhood regression.
There are a ton of others.
I follow the line of chemical imbalance with poor boundaries and an easy excuse.
I follow the line of chemical imbalance with poor boundaries and an easy excuse.
That's ok by me if you feel that way, chatter.
What I do know is, MWD has a chapter for MLC in DR.
If you would like to so easily discount MLC, that is your option. MWD speaks to it, directly. So we do on this site.
Reading a little further along and also some side chatter in other threads, I really want to encourage the newbies to post any questions for clarification here, regarding the theme of this thread.
And I think that it's also appropriate to encourage newbies (and more long term members) to read in the Infidelity forum as well as the MLC forum to see if there might be more information that makes sense to them and approaches that they would prefer to follow.
I think a lot of it has to do with just how bad things got, and how long the "bad" state persisted before it blew up.
Most definitely. And this is a big reason (there are an infinite number of other variables as well) why it is better to be careful about giving advice here that is presented as black and white. It is why I personally talk about using the DB principles as a guideline, but applying to to the unique situation. It is why, IMO, the #1 rule here is DO WHAT WORKS.
It is my opinion that, many people who find their way here... well... they probably should have read the DB/DR books a year or two before the registered on this site. If only more people were more proactive in working on their M... BEFORE it needed work...
After the bomb it seems to have a really crappy success rate.
I think like anything else, people don't believe it can happen to them -- I certainly didn't. Reading self help books would feel like asking for trouble where none exists. I certainly thought this kind of thing would *never* happen to me, so I had no motivation to even think about addressing it before it was too late.
YES to both KD and Accuray! The BITS talk of this often. It is argued by some that DB is not helpful and that is demonstrated by the low success rate. My counter argument is always that the people who come here to the DB board have most likely found it out of desperation, when their M is already on life support. I know mine was. But of course the success rate is going to be low when your entire sample group are in M's that are so close to be completely done when they first begin to learn DB. I always argue that if you took the people who JUST went out and bought the book when they saw some signs that their M was in trouble, that we'd see a much higher success rate with that sample group.
Let's face it. If you are desperate enough to start talking about such intimate and private details of your life over the internet, your M is probably in really bad shape and you are probably pretty desperate.
It seems that in most cases its impossible for a newbie to chill. I don't know how to help people with that, I don't think we can, they have to go through it and come out the other side. From my perspective, all we're trying to do is help them to minimize or avoid any further damage while they panic.
Absolutely agree. It is just something that we all had/have to go through here. There is no way around it IMO.
chatterbug -
i read your post this morning and your words have stayed with me all day - almost haunting me
were you specifically describing me or the general process of staying in the recovery stage?
I can see you having to deal with this at some point down the road.
and when i read this, i thought why down the road, why not now?
when you say "recovery" could you elaborate a bit - you're welcome to do it on my thread. is there some other info out there that i can read.
i think that you have picked up on something i need to face head on - i would love some help on this if you have the time please
thanks chatterbug - i think i need this hard nudge
zig
btw - i tried to go look at your old threads, but found it very difficult to find the ones that followed - do you have a link to them?
It seems that in most cases its impossible for a newbie to chill. I don't know how to help people with that, I don't think we can, they have to go through it and come out the other side. From my perspective, all we're trying to do is help them to minimize or avoid any further damage while they panic.
a good time to say "thanks"
And from the perspective of a MLCer in an A, I think would completely change the playing field.
The fact that the MLCer had an affair would completely change how you deal with them, or
The belief that a discovered (to be having an affair) spouse "is going thru mid-life crisis" would completely change how you deal with them?
Starsky
Actually, IMHO, yes. I won't go into it here and it is just my opinion.
What I do think and hope might be coming clear is, each one of us has our own compass and while every newbie that comes here would do well to first stop and breathe...
And I believe that most who are here to support, look at that first...
After that, a LBS really should be considering what I think is important factors in their own core belief systems.
If they believe an A is unacceptable and there is NO excuse (and I am actually of that camp, to a large degree) from a zero tolerance perspective, than guiding them in a more moderate or soft approach may not be helpful.
OTOH, when someone is of the belief that MLC is a real, albeit non-medically diagnosable or treatable condition, then supporting them through a softer approach might be more helpful.
I actually believe, from what I've observed here over the past year and a half, that both approaches appear to be "equally effective". Again, my opinion.
Um, not sure which one of my posts you were responding to, but if it's my LAST one, it was an either-or question. "Yes" doesn't really help me (altho the rest of your post does a good job letting us know where you're coming from).
P.S. I could add a #3, something more similar with Denver's approach (there was an old poster here named Mulesqb who is a great example of this approach -- what I would call "The Patience of a Saint Approach"). But it's a rare bird who can pull it off without losing themselves in the process -- it's that damned draining. It takes a ton of patience and usually a very strong spiritual faith.
Starsky
Man, I did have the patience of a saint, didn't I?? LOL!
Actually, as I stated in my piecing thread, I could not have applied this '3rd approach' if I hadn't honestly come to the conclusion that I had been really horrible to my W throughout much of our R/M.
Some have said that I have been too hard on myself because I was a good provider financially, and in a sense that may be true. But I totally neglected the emotional side of my R/M. Especially during the months preceding my W leaving me.
I have forgiven myself for that finally. But it was good enough reason to be patient for someone that I love, for someone who deserved to be treated better than that.
I didn't want to have my M end because I had not given it my best.
That was motivation enough for me to hang in there.
First --
Set your GOAL.
What do you want to achieve:
What will your spouse be doing,
what will the two of you be doing?
EVERY situation is different, there is NO ONESIZEFITSALL approach. Per DR with references to 'read more': Look at CONTEXT with DR
Context: General
Most marriages DO survive infidelity (p. 193)
Context: When He/She won't end the affair:
Affairs don't usually result in marriage, and when they do, most end in divorce (p. 214)
Folks will tell you to 'stop being a doormat and go on with your life." Trust your instincts. Don't let anyone tell you what to do. If you're not ready to give up on your marriage, keep fighting. (p. 215)
Context: Last Resort Technique (you've tried 'everything' and what you are doing is making things WORSE begin p. 215
"You have some investigative work to do. No, I don't mean snooping around to find out what is really going on." (p. 216)
"You need to find out what need your spouse is fulfilling by spending time with this person so that you can do a better job fulfilling that need yourself. You need tomake some changes. Don't tell your spouse that youare going to change or that things iwll be different, just start acting differently."
This stage is NOT about boundaries.
Context: AFTER THE LAST RESORT TECHNIQUE (p. 218)
(if nothing above has worked and you are done, asnd you're aspouse still refuses to stop seeing the OP.)
Context: DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO END YOUR MARRIAGE, because that's what it might do. p. 219.
"Tell your spouse tha tyou love him/her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely."
This is boundary setting .... letting go unless other person is completely out of the picture. more details in page 219. Also, it's the advice Starsky and Sandi2 and many others give regularly. It works and it doesn't work. You have to know your goal and your ability and desire to work things out or move on.
Be very clear. This may end your marriage. It may also spark saving it. It will not save it alone without other skillset building.
Internet infidelity descriptions in the chapter are details based on the same contexts. Know your context. Know your goal, desire. Advice is useless without knowing what you want your outcome to be.
holy smokers! I've been 0wned in the "know your DR references"...
Thanks, dbmod!
You called down the thunder, well now you got it.
movie quote from:
Tombstone... one of my favorites! Val Kilmer is great!
I'm your huckleberry.
well, there's better huckleberries here but i had to say it
"My! People come and go so QUICKLY here!"
Movie quote from ________________________ .
Starsky
Starsky and Kaffe, I have really benefited from reading your advice. My H and I are currently living separately. (He moved back into a house he owned before we married where his grown son is also living.) He stops by to see me regularly and still says he loves me but wants a divorce (there is no A, that's not how he's wired), that I'm one of the best women in the world but he didn't feel accepted by me (this is about the fifth different reason he's given me) and then when I say OK to the divorce he backtracks and says he'll think about it and then we end up being intimate (at his suggestion). This cycle has repeated about three or four times. I just go dark but friendly in between. Any other advice or suggestions?
Well, I'd stop being intimate, for starters, but that's just me. If someone is basically firing me as their spouse, I'm not going to continue to give them the things that go along with the whole package.
I'll go check out your thread, unbidden. How do you know there is no one else, other than "that's not how my husband is wired," which is, you know, like "famous last words" around here??
Starsky
I know, I know, famous last words but I have access to all his internet accounts and his cell phone is still on my plan etc. so I could see who he calls and texts. Plus, he's always home and he still wears his ring etc. And, it's so not him he would just divorce me and move on if he wanted an A. We have no joint assets so there is no property to divide and a divorce would be easy. I thought he was really depressed for awhile and maybe BP so I have tried to give him space/time. I think that he is unhappy with himself and projecting and so he says he wants a divorce and then realizes he's unsure and backs off.
The women on the board are very good at describing their play-by-plays. You see what works, because you see it as it happens, and you see it isn't one technique.
2 successful men's stories on the board come to mind, because they are not only successful but pretty well described on the board:
Denver 2010
JackThreeBeans
Please feel free to add stories that are successful and well described.
I moved this thread to the forum where I think I belongs.
Dr. Jim Conway and his wife Sally (deceased) pretty much wrote the book on Midlife Crisis. Reading their research is a good place to start.
Agreed. And Michele and Virginia agrees.
help and MLC is really a separate discussion. Many experience this as the normal painful transitions and hard to face realities in life.
Many experience and describe this as mental illness. There are folks that are associated with Michele such as the Conways that have thoroughly researched this and I think the 'temporary mental illness' description as very real and there are things that a spouse can do that will help the spouse g et through this. some of this is described in DR, but Michele says if this is what you are going through, you need to research it. The Conways' work is a great place to begin.
Of course, these folks often have affairs which mixes up the discussion. And complicates it.
The hard line isn't likely to work here.
holy smokers! I've been 0wned in the "know your DR references"...
Thanks, dbmod!
"Always... no.... never forget to check your references."
Movie quote from ___________________
i just wanted to thank you KD for starting this thread and to all of you for the discussion. it has been so interesting an driven me so much to learn an d think about.
I get this Zig, but I do believe that detachment is a big part of being successful here. I struggled with it a lot though. But I can tell you that my most significant progress was done when I was detached from my W and what she was doing.
Hi Denver,
Can you expand on this? I'm still trying to catch up with your thread (about halfway now) and I'd like to hear at which point and how you managed to detach and what the significant progress was.
Thx
I get this Zig, but I do believe that detachment is a big part of being successful here. I struggled with it a lot though. But I can tell you that my most significant progress was done when I was detached from my W and what she was doing.
Hi Denver,
Can you expand on this? I'm still trying to catch up with your thread (about halfway now) and I'd like to hear at which point and how you managed to detach and what the significant progress was.
Thx
Sure Arsene.
There was the 4-6 weeks right after the initial S (end of Nov 2010-middle of Jan 2011). I don't think that I was detached, but I did manage to have some self control and back way off, went dark, and waited for her to initiate contact me.
End of July/begining of August 2011... First time I considered walking away and being done. I did manage to detach to a degree. Again was able to manage to back way off, went dark, and waited for her to initiate contact with me.
End of January 2012... Again considered walking away and being done. Again managed to back way off, go dark and wait for her to initiate contact with me. I was able to detach a bit more than before.
May 7, 2012 - middle of June 2012... I told W that I wanted D. Again backed way off, went dark. This time though, I was done. Really did work on detachment. And was not waiting for anything from W. This was the first time that I really started to see that there could be a happy life without my W and M. I actually started to get excited about the future. The middle of June is when she started lighting my cell phone up ... and, well, here we are.
So, in each and everyone of those periods that I talk about above, there was more progress than any time when I was actually spending time with my W.
I believe that those periods of time allowed her to learn to miss me. They allowed her the time to reflect on what she wanted for her life. They allowed her the time to grow as a person. They allowed her to see that the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence.
I can tell you that each and every time that we would go through a period of no contact, where I was working on detaching from her, she would always, without fail, end up contacting me. It would usually come in the form of a text about basically nothing. Then the texts would begin to come more frequent. And then she'd be telling me that she missed me, that she loved me, and that she just didn't know what to do.
It was the distance that caused this IMO Arsene.
Now, the times when we were spending a lot of time together was when she had the opportunity to see the new me, the changes that I was making, and how I was growing as a person.
So it all served a purpose. But as far as bringing my W closer to me, it was the times that I was working on detaching, going dark, and waiting for her to initiate contact with me that worked best.
Those periods of time were also when I think that I learned the most about myself. Where I learned what being patient really means. Where I learned about unconditional love. Where I learned what it means to be committed to your spouse in good times AND BAD. Where I learned to persevere through the toughest times of my life.
Detachment IS very important for many. Especially for stopping the desperate chase in the beginning that rings false for the partner.
But, for SOME it is just as important to re-engage and perhaps pursue.
There is NO onesizefitsall.
If your coach is suggesting that you test the waters, reconnect, etc, you can bet your coach has a great reason for that.
Detaching CAN be moreofthe same.
If you are unsure and not under the guidance of a coach..........GO THROUGH THE STEPS in DR/DB or KLA.
Detachment IS very important for many. Especially for stopping the desperate chase in the beginning that rings false for the partner.
But, for SOME it is just as important to re-engage and perhaps pursue.
There is NO onesizefitsall.
If your coach is suggesting that you test the waters, reconnect, etc, you can bet your coach has a great reason for that.
Detaching CAN be moreofthe same.
If you are unsure and not under the guidance of a coach..........GO THROUGH THE STEPS in DR/DB or KLA.
dbmod,
In what circumstances does Michele teach that pursuit is appropriate?
Is it ever appropriate to pursue when the wayward spouse is still in their affair?
Trying to understand, in the context of the thread title, where the limits lie.
Starsky
The women on the board are very good at describing their play-by-plays. You see what works, because you see it as it happens, and you see it isn't one technique.
2 successful men's stories on the board come to mind, because they are not only successful but pretty well described on the board:
Denver 2010
JackThreeBeans
Please feel free to add stories that are successful and well described.
What are you defining as successful? I only ask since you posted this via your mod id. And the two names you mentioned are at two completely different levels in their recoveries.
Detaching CAN be moreofthe same.
Yep. Something that I had to keep in mind at all times, and balance.
The women on the board are very good at describing their play-by-plays. You see what works, because you see it as it happens, and you see it isn't one technique.
2 successful men's stories on the board come to mind, because they are not only successful but pretty well described on the board:
Denver 2010
JackThreeBeans
Please feel free to add stories that are successful and well described.
What are you defining as successful? I only ask since you posted this via your mod id. And the two names you mentioned are at two completely different levels in their recoveries.
Please post anything you feel as helpful.
I know many folks are successful, but they don't say EVERYTHING that was succesful for them.
If you look around folks are very descriptive in what is wrong with their spouses. As things start working out, you might find they are together. Andthey might post something they felt important ... but not the individual day by day interactions that helped to bring them togeher. They might not describe that the fact they told their wife how beautiful she was to them, or the fact that woman told her family in front of her husband, what a great man, provider and father he was.
Get it?
if you recognize something great, post it.
Detachment IS very important for many. Especially for stopping the desperate chase in the beginning that rings false for the partner.
But, for SOME it is just as important to re-engage and perhaps pursue.
There is NO onesizefitsall.
If your coach is suggesting that you test the waters, reconnect, etc, you can bet your coach has a great reason for that.
Detaching CAN be moreofthe same.
If you are unsure and not under the guidance of a coach..........GO THROUGH THE STEPS in DR/DB or KLA.
dbmod,
In what circumstances does Michele teach that pursuit is appropriate?
Is it ever appropriate to pursue when the wayward spouse is still in their affair?
Trying to understand, in the context of the thread title, where the limits lie.
Starsky
am very glad you asked Starsky. I understand that many folks, especially due to the pain, see Infidelty as a completely separate book, topic. And Michele doesn't address it that way. It's a subset (remember CONTEXT) of DR. Besides her Blogs and posts and individual consults, it is not separately addressed. And of course, it isn't indexed in DR.
But you will see it as advice in testing the waters. And even in the Infidelity chapter, Michele NEVER suggests setting boundaries and completely dropping out of the marriage EXCEPT as AFTER THE LAST RESORT TECHNIQUE...CLEARLY INDICATING THIS MAY END YOUR MARRIAGE.
You lost me. Either you didn't answer the questions, or I'm just missing it.
Not sure where you're lost.
Denver got it.
Try "Experiment and Monitor Results, specifically pg. 115" Click 'notify' on this post if you need DR. Virginia will let me know.
I might be off course a little, I personally see DR and much of what MWD saying is stressing that infidelity is often a symptom of a deeper, underlying problem.
As opposed to someone who might be focused on infidelity as the problem.
My take on that, in context of pursuit / distance is that if infidelity is the symptom, it could be the LBS was distanced from the WAS so the WAS sought getting their needs met elsewhere.
Therefore, pursuit MIGHT be appropriate.
This might be the off course bit.
In the MLC forum, that's often seen as "poking the bear". ie. We will directly contact the WAS to "take a temperature" of the WAS to see if they are receptive to us. That may not make sense, although we can tell that if they are receptive, then we may work on seeking further connection with them. If they spew at us, we know we need to continue to stay away. Many don't do it purposely, the results are the same.
In what might be considered "generic infidelity", the WAS MAY be desiring to have their needs met by the LBS. So if distance is "more of the same" which set up a condition of the WAS seeking elsewhere... "doing something different" or "a 180" might be pursuit, to see if the WAS would be receptive to re-engaging or re-connecting with the LBS.
If the WAS is receptive to that and that direction is set up and begun, then the process of healing from the infidelity can begin.
If the WAS is NOT receptive... is the WAS just set in their course... and / or... is that because they don't see the LBS as a "better option"...
And finally, it is up to the LBS to decide... IF... they want to be a better option...
Their choice... neither good nor bad...
Thanks Denver,
So most of these occurred after you guys had agreed to work on reconciliation. From what I understand. Your W had a difficult time letting go of OM and seemed to be torn between you and OM, however, she had expressed that she loved you and wanted to give it another go.
You talk about moments when you went "dark" and I realize you do need a certain amount of detachment to do this but how about being detached without going dark? Did you experience this? A time when although you were still in touch with your W regularly, her actions and words didn't affect you and you were able to stay cheerful (or at least act "as if" successfully) and get on with your life.
I guess I'm asking because I'm realizing that there is nothing I can do now to get her away from OM so my only alternative is to completely detach (so I don't live in constant pain) or simply give up.
I'm not ready to give up yet because, somehow, I still believe my W is somewhere in that body and that, once she comes out of that tunnel, we have a chance at a fantastic future together. Now I can't go "dark" because I'm taking care of D8, and W does come around often enough.
So far my detachment seems to have appeased the storm. We are now civil, or even friendly, and from where I stand, although this might not in itself get her to reconsider the A, at least, she is close enough that she will see/has seen the changes is me and, most of the time, I am not affected by what she does or say.
I'd love to hear more on the effects of detachment in the case of an A.
(I guess that since I still care about the outcome, I am not truly detached but I am as detached as I wish to be for the time being)
I might be off course a little, I personally see DR and much of what MWD saying is stressing that infidelity is often a symptom of a deeper, underlying problem.
As opposed to someone who might be focused on infidelity as the problem.
My take on that, in context of pursuit / distance is that if infidelity is the symptom, it could be the LBS was distanced from the WAS so the WAS sought getting their needs met elsewhere.
Therefore, pursuit MIGHT be appropriate.
This might be the off course bit.
In the MLC forum, that's often seen as "poking the bear". ie. We will directly contact the WAS to "take a temperature" of the WAS to see if they are receptive to us. That may not make sense, although we can tell that if they are receptive, then we may work on seeking further connection with them. If they spew at us, we know we need to continue to stay away. Many don't do it purposely, the results are the same.
In what might be considered "generic infidelity", the WAS MAY be desiring to have their needs met by the LBS. So if distance is "more of the same" which set up a condition of the WAS seeking elsewhere... "doing something different" or "a 180" might be pursuit, to see if the WAS would be receptive to re-engaging or re-connecting with the LBS.
If the WAS is receptive to that and that direction is set up and begun, then the process of healing from the infidelity can begin.
The problem I see with that approach is that the cheating spouse (and again, I was asking about this only in the context of infidelity) could easily be "receptive" to the pursuit solely as a way to cake-eat, or to keep the betrayed spouse in line while they carry on their affair, now with two people courting them.
I don't ever see a time when pursuit can be justified,
as long as their is still an active affair going on. If "too much distance" was indeed a prior marital complaint, then the betrayed spouse can (and should) address that
when the affair ends and they enter the Piecing phase.This is just my opinion and observation, but I just don't think purusuig during an active affair is ever a good idea:
- It enables the affair, by having the betrayed spouse meet some of the cheating spouse's emotional (and sometimes even physical) needs, while their affair partner meets the others;
- It makes the betrayed spouse look weak and supplicating (especially if the LBS is the husband);
- It allows the cheating spouse to not have to make a decision, longer;
- It puts the betrayed spouse's own health at risk (if unprotected sex is a part of the recommended pursuit).
Again, these are just my opinions and observations; I was looking to see what MWD's official DB/DR stance was on the issue, since it was the topic of the thread. I do believe that infidelity is often -- maybe even usually -- a symptom of a deeper, underlying marital problem. I just also believe that it's an immediate "tree crashing thru the roof" (see Penny Tupy's excellent article "Holes in the Roof") that requires a different approach, at least while there is an active affair still going on. I do realize that reasonable people may disagree on this topic.
Starsky
I might be off course a little, I personally see DR and much of what MWD saying is stressing that infidelity is often a symptom of a deeper, underlying problem.
As opposed to someone who might be focused on infidelity as the problem.
My take on that, in context of pursuit / distance is that if infidelity is the symptom, it could be the LBS was distanced from the WAS so the WAS sought getting their needs met elsewhere.
Therefore, pursuit MIGHT be appropriate.
This might be the off course bit.
In the MLC forum, that's often seen as "poking the bear". ie. We will directly contact the WAS to "take a temperature" of the WAS to see if they are receptive to us. That may not make sense, although we can tell that if they are receptive, then we may work on seeking further connection with them. If they spew at us, we know we need to continue to stay away. Many don't do it purposely, the results are the same.
In what might be considered "generic infidelity", the WAS MAY be desiring to have their needs met by the LBS. So if distance is "more of the same" which set up a condition of the WAS seeking elsewhere... "doing something different" or "a 180" might be pursuit, to see if the WAS would be receptive to re-engaging or re-connecting with the LBS.
If the WAS is receptive to that and that direction is set up and begun, then the process of healing from the infidelity can begin.
The problem I see with that approach is that the cheating spouse (and again, I was asking about this only in the context of infidelity) could easily be "receptive" to the pursuit solely as a way to cake-eat, or to keep the betrayed spouse in line while they carry on their affair, now with two people courting them.
I don't ever see a time when pursuit can be justified,
as long as their is still an active affair going on. If "too much distance" was indeed a prior marital complaint, then the betrayed spouse can (and should) address that
when the affair ends and they enter the Piecing phase.This is just my opinion and observation, but I just don't think purusuig during an active affair is ever a good idea:
- It enables the affair, by having the betrayed spouse meet some of the cheating spouse's emotional (and sometimes even physical) needs, while their affair partner meets the others;
- It makes the betrayed spouse look weak and supplicating (especially if the LBS is the husband);
- It allows the cheating spouse to not have to make a decision, longer;
- It puts the betrayed spouse's own health at risk (if unprotected sex is a part of the recommended pursuit).
Again, these are just my opinions and observations; I was looking to see what MWD's official DB/DR stance was on the issue, since it was the topic of the thread. I do believe that infidelity is often -- maybe even usually -- a symptom of a deeper, underlying marital problem. I just also believe that it's an immediate "tree crashing thru the roof" (see Penny Tupy's excellent article "Holes in the Roof") that requires a different approach, at least while there is an active affair still going on. I do realize that reasonable people may disagree on this topic.
Starsky
Wow... I actually agree with Starsky on this 100%. As long as OM is a part of WAW's life, LBH should not be an active part. That's not to say that you necessarily have to be completely dark, but not an active part of their life. IMO of course.
Wow... I actually agree with Starsky on this 100%. As long as OM is a part of WAW's life, LBH should not be an active part. That's not to say that you necessarily have to be completely dark, but not an active part of their life. IMO of course.
But yet, I'm pretty sure this is what MWD teaches. At least up until the LRT and perhaps up until the after-the-LRT stage. That's why I was looking for clarification from dbmod.
Not sure if it's MWD teaching or it's just what the forum has morphed into over the years, but I'm pretty sure even the DB coaches encourage "flirting" and other forms of pursuit even with the actively-wayward. It's fine if we disagree on that; I'm just looking to get a straight answer, since this thread was started and we're all discussing this aspect right now.
Starsky
MESSAGE FOR STARSKY309, JTB, SANDI2, DENVER, HARRIER AND OTHERS. SORRY TO HIGHJACK. COULD FOLKS POINT THIS OUT TO THESE FOLKS?
I'LL BE GOING OFFLINE. MY W FOUND THE FORUM AND SOME OF MY POSTS. IT WAS A SHOCK TO ME AND A ROUGH WEEKEND BUT SPARKED SOME GOOD CONVERSATIONS. I'M GOING TO BE FINE. BUT OBVIOUSLY I'D RATHER THAT SHE DIDN'T GO BACK AND RE-READ THE POSTS. I JUST NEED TO GO OUT ON MY OWN FOR AWHILE. BUT I COULDN'T HEAD OUT WITHOUT SAYING THANKS. AND THANKS TO MWD FOR RUNNING A GREAT ONLINE COMMUNITY. I HAVE GROWN AND LEARNED A LOT. I'M A BETTER MAN, FATHER, AND HUSBAND FOR IT. WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS A GREAT AND KIND SERVICE. I WISH YOU ALL THE BEST. sl
The women on the board are very good at describing their play-by-plays. You see what works, because you see it as it happens, and you see it isn't one technique.
2 successful men's stories on the board come to mind, because they are not only successful but pretty well described on the board:
Denver 2010
JackThreeBeans
Please feel free to add stories that are successful and well described.
What are you defining as successful? I only ask since you posted this via your mod id. And the two names you mentioned are at two completely different levels in their recoveries.
Please post anything you feel as helpful.
I know many folks are successful, but they don't say EVERYTHING that was succesful for them.
If you look around folks are very descriptive in what is wrong with their spouses. As things start working out, you might find they are together. Andthey might post something they felt important ... but not the individual day by day interactions that helped to bring them togeher. They might not describe that the fact they told their wife how beautiful she was to them, or the fact that woman told her family in front of her husband, what a great man, provider and father he was.
Get it?
if you recognize something great, post it.
I have no idea if you answered my question that I asked.
What are you defining as successful ?
Thanks Denver,
So most of these occurred after you guys had agreed to work on reconciliation. From what I understand. Your W had a difficult time letting go of OM and seemed to be torn between you and OM, however, she had expressed that she loved you and wanted to give it another go.
We never agreed to reconcile until this most recent go around. When we were in periods of hanging out, spending lots of time together, dating, whatever you want to call it, W's position was that she was 'trying' to forgive me and fall back in love with me. She always said that she loved me. But there was a wall that she just had a very hard time breaking down. IMO, it was all about the hurt that she felt from my prior actions and her fear that if she came back and opened her heart to me that she would just be hurt again.
OM presented an "opportunity for happiness with out [me]" for my W. She had a hard time letting go of THAT. I don't think that it was OM himself, if that makes sense. Listen, he had spent months 'supporting' my W and listening to her complaints about me. He had the playbook. He provided her the things that I hadn't before. She had been starved for these things for a very long time. It was difficult for my W to believe that she could get them from me after not having gotten them for so long, and after having received them from OM, it was something that was hard to let go of.
But she said throughout, that I felt like 'home' to her.
That's what she was torn between.
It wasn't until I had demonstrated for a very long time that I had changed, understood what she needed, and was capable of giving that to her... and then, at the end, taking myself away from her altogether, that my W was finally able to figure it out.
So yes, there were long periods of time when she and I would spend lots of time together. Her trying to break down that wall, and me trying to show her that she could trust me with her heart. But at all times, my position was that if OM was a part of her life, that I would not be an
active part of her life.
You talk about moments when you went "dark" and I realize you do need a certain amount of detachment to do this but how about being detached without going dark? Did you experience this? A time when although you were still in touch with your W regularly, her actions and words didn't affect you and you were able to stay cheerful (or at least act "as if" successfully) and get on with your life.
Honestly, the answer is no. I never was able to really fully detach. The closest that I came was in August/Sept of 2011. I briefly dated a girl in August (which was a huge mistake for me personally btw). And when that ended, the lawfirm that I co-owned broke apart. I had to focus on dealing with the business S with my biz partner and building a new law firm in September and October. So my mind was distracted away from what my W was doing. So I was somewhat detached by the distraction of OW and then by my career.
I had gone dark on her in August because she began to spend time and talk to OM again. In September, she began to initiate contact with me. I kept conversations short, ended them first, didn't always respond to texts or voice messages, but was otherwise polite and upbeat when I did speak with her.
In a sense I was becoming detached at this point, and wasn't dark. But I was not fully detached. In my mind, I was just letting my W figure her life out while I focused on mine. I loved her from a distance and did not allow my thoughts to be constantly consumed by what she was or was not doing.
By the end of September, she was telling me that OM was out of her life again and that she wanted to work on us... towards reconciliation. She still wouldn't commit to it though.
Same thing in January of this year. We had gone from Oct through middle of January spending lots, and lots of time together, without W committing to R. Then I found out that she had spent some time with OM one week in January. I had set a boundary, so I enforced it by removing myself from her life immediately. The same cycle repeated albeit much shorter this time. By early February she was again saying that she was done with OM and wanted to work on us. Actually, this was, for the most part the end of OM even though he still lurked and W had not completely resolved her feelings for him or the thought that he was her alternate 'opportunity for happiness' so to speak.
I guess I'm asking because I'm realizing that there is nothing I can do now to get her away from OM so my only alternative is to completely detach (so I don't live in constant pain) or simply give up.
You're not ready to give up, so what I suggest is that you do what I did in August/Sept of 2011 and in January of 2012. Remove yourself as much as possible. Love her from a distance. Lovingly detach in other words. Keep your conversations and contact limited to what is necessary for your D. Maybe this is a good way to say it... be an active part of your D's life, but do not be an active part of your W's life... she is with an OM right now. IMO, she needs to know that the consequence of that is that she no longer has you to be there for her in any way other than as the father of her child.
I'm not ready to give up yet because, somehow, I still believe my W is somewhere in that body and that, once she comes out of that tunnel, we have a chance at a fantastic future together. Now I can't go "dark" because I'm taking care of D8, and W does come around often enough.
Can you not work out a plan where your W is not around when you have D and you are not around when she has D? Again, you need to remove yourself from your W's life as long as OM is a part of it. IMO.
at least, she is close enough that she will see/has seen the changes is me and,
She needs to see this from afar, and during the brief moments of contact that YOU allow. Right now, IMO, that should come in the context of your D only.
I'd love to hear more on the effects of detachment in the case of an A.
(I guess that since I still care about the outcome, I am not truly detached but I am as detached as I wish to be for the time being)
Being detached does not mean that you stop caring. You love from a distance. The moment that you become ambivalent, I believe that you will move on and your M will be over.
Lovingly detach.
Unfortunately, nothing is going to happen as long as OM is part of your W's life. As long as whatever it is that she thinks that he offers is in her head, she will not be open to R.
She has to work through this on your own. She has to resolve these feelings. You cannot force it to happen, or expedite it. Trust me on this. I tried everything that I could. I tried to will it to happen. It is just something that we have no control over.
So where does that leave you? It leaves you waiting for your W to figure it out. Personally, I wish that I had listened to others here and not tortured myself so much during the periods when I was where you are now. I wish that I would have used the time to GAL more. Not that I didn't do some, but I never fully enjoyed it. I don't want to say to sit back an enjoy the ride, because you are not going to enjoy much about this ride. But maybe, you sit back, try to relax a bit, find a bit of peace and happiness where you can, continue to love your W from afar, and let the ride happen.
To me, that is detaching. That's all that you can do right now Arsene.
Wow... I actually agree with Starsky on this 100%. As long as OM is a part of WAW's life, LBH should not be an active part. That's not to say that you necessarily have to be completely dark, but not an active part of their life. IMO of course.
But yet, I'm pretty sure this is what MWD teaches. At least up until the LRT and perhaps up until the after-the-LRT stage.
My interpretation is that this is what she teaches in the LRT. But personally, I think that you should be in LRT if your S is in an active A.
My interpretation of the after LRT stage, is basically ultimatum time. And you have to be
ready to accept the end of your M.
Not sure if it's MWD teaching or it's just what the forum has morphed into over the years, but I'm pretty sure even the DB coaches encourage "flirting" and other forms of pursuit even with the actively-wayward. It's fine if we disagree on that; I'm just looking to get a straight answer, since this thread was started and we're all discussing this aspect right now.
Starsky
I could be wrong Starsky, but I think that MWD encourages this in the chapter on infidelity in DR prior to LRT. I'd have to go back and look at the chapter.
Either way though, I simply could not do it as long as WAS had an OP as active part of his or her life.
For me, I just had to remove myself from my W's life during those periods of time.
My mistake was always letting her back into my life too easily when she believed that she was ready to rid herself of OM, when she clearly had not completely resolved those feelings.
Either way though, I simply could not do it as long as WAS had an OP as active part of his or her life.
See? We do have some things in common. Me neither.
Either way though, I simply could not do it as long as WAS had an OP as active part of his or her life.
See? We do have some things in common. Me neither.
Hahaha... yeah I know we do. Always did. The difference in our opinions always had to do with me knowing that I could not pull the big trigger too soon and that I had to be extremely careful not to appear that I had reverted to old behaviors. That was tough for me to balance.
My IC followed MWD's principles and initially encouraged me to flirt and "compete" with OW. It didn't work...but it did keep H "in limbo" and seeing a better me than he'd seen for several months. I think it was worth a try for a period of time and better than turning into a hostile witch.
But, very hard to compete and I needed to have a timeline in my head for how long I'd try it. The advice from some other books talked about how your health as the LBS, especially for women, can decline rapidly while you live in this type of situation.
they also do not mention that this selfish choice by the cheater takes up to seven years to repair.....
MESSAGE FOR STARSKY309, JTB, SANDI2, DENVER, HARRIER AND OTHERS. SORRY TO HIGHJACK. COULD FOLKS POINT THIS OUT TO THESE FOLKS?
I'LL BE GOING OFFLINE. MY W FOUND THE FORUM AND SOME OF MY POSTS. IT WAS A SHOCK TO ME AND A ROUGH WEEKEND BUT SPARKED SOME GOOD CONVERSATIONS. I'M GOING TO BE FINE. BUT OBVIOUSLY I'D RATHER THAT SHE DIDN'T GO BACK AND RE-READ THE POSTS. I JUST NEED TO GO OUT ON MY OWN FOR AWHILE. BUT I COULDN'T HEAD OUT WITHOUT SAYING THANKS. AND THANKS TO MWD FOR RUNNING A GREAT ONLINE COMMUNITY. I HAVE GROWN AND LEARNED A LOT. I'M A BETTER MAN, FATHER, AND HUSBAND FOR IT. WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS A GREAT AND KIND SERVICE. I WISH YOU ALL THE BEST. sl
Still Learning
My wife found me on 5 different internet forums.
She took the advice here and installed a keylogger on our home computer.
It eventually killed the computer and I eventually found out.
Do what you need to do for you.
At some point I eventually decided that it did not matter if she read what I wrote here or not.
It is a form of pursuit by her after YOU.
Please protect yourself and do not write anything that can be used against you in court.
Good luck and this too shall pass.
Thanks Denver. That is sound advice and It looks like something I can do right now.
BTW, my friend just informed me that she ha received my order today (DR) so I'll be reading it starting tomorrow.
I don't ever see a time when pursuit can be justified, as long as their is still an active affair going on. If "too much distance" was indeed a prior marital complaint, then the betrayed spouse can (and should) address that when the affair ends and they enter the Piecing phase.
Before my bomb, I would have agreed with this 100%.
Yet, my H's affair and our separation has now lasted 20 months. He has not ONCE hesitated or expressed doubts about his decision. OW is his soulmate, blah, blah, blah and he just does not see us ever reconnecting romantically.
He says OW makes him happy and they are good for each other.
Their affair is only getting stronger now that they are public and very serious in their R.
One of the main issues in our M was that my H felt unapprecaited and abandoned. We also fought a lot and I had a short fuse.
His needs were NOT met by me and OW has done a great job at meeting them.
So if I wait to address the distance issue until the affair ends, I might never get a chance, since that R is only getting stronger every day.
In other words, if I just detach and go dim, then he will never see changes and get to believe that I can meet his needs better than OW. His decisions to leave will be validated by my "doing more of the same" by keeping my distance.
From what I understood in this thread, Denver's W returned when she trusted him and came to believe he could meet her needs better than OM.
So my dilemma is how would I be able to show a stubborn, resolute H that our M can work by going dark and detaching, thus leaving OW to continue fulfilling his every need.
On the other hand, I am not saying I will let him come and go as he pleases or that I would sleep with him if he wanted to. That is a personal boundary I would enforce. So where do I draw the line and how can I reconnect?
I hope I am making sense here. This is something I have been struggling with for a long time - boundaries vs. doing something different. I am glad it's being addressed in this great thread and I would welcome any feedback or further opinions anyone else may have.
keep-going...you could have described my sitch with what you wrote above. of course there are some differences but overall, my struggle feels quite similar..going dark and leaving OW to fulfill his needs (because i too was not fulfilling his), boundaries vs doing something different.
I await feedback to your post and look forward to the opinions.
hope you are well
((( )))
Sometimes people have exit affairs. They are done. Your feelings are not important as they no longer want to be with you.
Sometimes people have exit affairs. They are done.
This is so true, and underscores the importance of getting a life, becoming strong and happy for one's self and moving forward "as if" to build the life YOU want.
It is so easy to get bogged down in trying to figure out the mystery of whether a WAS is having some kind of melt down and whether/when it will end. We can get trapped in hyper-analyzing what went down, why and how, thinking we'll somehow figure it out.
Only the passage of time will provide the answer. We can either do our best to be our best once that time has passed and we have our answer, or we can flounder never knowing because all our obsessing and anlyzing actively interferes with the answer becoming clear, if that makes sense.
Yet, my H's affair and our separation has now lasted 20 months. He has not ONCE hesitated or expressed doubts about his decision. OW is his soulmate, blah, blah, blah and he just does not see us ever reconnecting romantically.
He says OW makes him happy and they are good for each other.
Their affair is only getting stronger now that they are public and very serious in their R.
And yet you still want to pursue him (short of ML with him) . . . why?
I think you need to ask yourself,
Why do you want to be with someone who -- for over a year and a half -- has demonstrated by way of an unrepentant long-term affair that he doesn't want to be with YOU?Each of us has to make our own decision about how long to "stand," and reasonable people can (and do) disagree about how long that can be and still be healthy. But even the most die-hard long-term "stander"/MLC types usually distance themselves -- often separating themselves completely -- from teh affairing/MLCing spouse, and they don't continue to pursue after 3-6 months or so.
I'm not familiar with your sitch, KG -- have you done any reading and self-work on co-dependency through your ordeal?
Starsky
One of the main issues in our M was that my H felt unapprecaited and abandoned. We also fought a lot and I had a short fuse.
His needs were NOT met by me and OW has done a great job at meeting them.
So if I wait to address the distance issue until the affair ends, I might never get a chance, since that R is only getting stronger every day.
In other words, if I just detach and go dim, then he will never see changes and get to believe that I can meet his needs better than OW. His decisions to leave will be validated by my "doing more of the same" by keeping my distance.
From what I understood in this thread, Denver's W returned when she trusted him and came to believe he could meet her needs better than OM.
So my dilemma is how would I be able to show a stubborn, resolute H that our M can work by going dark and detaching, thus leaving OW to continue fulfilling his every need.
This ^^^^ is a very, very tough (and very, very COMMON) question. It's a valid concern, and it goes to the whole core of what MWD teaches about "pursuit." But the sad fact is, that while he is emotionally infatuated (and perhaps now even thinks he's genuinely in love with) his OW, he's not going to be able to "see" your changes even if he were in front of you daily.
"Don't pursue" is VERY counter-intuitive, but it goes to the core of effectively DBing. The only advice I would have for you is to see if you can look for other ways for your husband to see that you are a changed woman in terms of being more appreciative
generally. But if you try to directly show this to HIM (say, by way of Words of Affirmation or other compliments), he's only going to pull further away, in my opinion.
Do you think he has EVER -- in the past 20 months -- genuinely felt like he was in any real danger of LOSING YOU, emotionally?Starsky
I think you need to ask yourself, Why do you want to be with someone who -- for over a year and a half -- has demonstrated by way of an unrepentant long-term affair that he doesn't want to be with YOU?
Just some thoughts and maybe I need to see a different perspective...
Yes, he does not want to be with me. The me that I became in a time of crisis for me, a time of stress and tremendous change for us as a family.
That is who he saw and, still sees, when he left, and most likely still now.
Why? Because I love the man that I choose to start and raise a family with. The man that I moved to an unknown country for to start our marriage and family. To start a new life with. Because we have a family, two young kids. Because they have no voice to stand for their family, for their father that they deserve to have in their lives completely.
For them to be raised in a family that acts from love, not fear. for them not to have my experience of a broken family filled with anger and bitterness.
For me it's the chance. To see if we can get through this as a family, intact. A chance to work on this M and this R.
That's what I have been thinking. I don't want to be a doormat. I don't want to
traumatise my kids or live unhappily. I dont want H to live unhappily either. And I am finally understanding that detaching is the way, no pursuit, etc.
But it's standing for the chance to see if we can R. In the meantime, I will do what we are here to do because I do believe in it and I believe this is my best shot for all of us. Even if we don't R, this will be the best I can give myself, my children and my H, whether he is H or exH.
For the first time in almost two years I finally feel like I can become the woman infant to become, the mother I want to be and the partner I want to be in a R. I know there is still a way to go...but I guess this is...why.....
Do you love him enough to let him go?I know these are hard questions. They're SUPPOSED to be, and the answers I'm trying to elicit are for YOU, not for me (or anyone else). Just trying to get you to think about this from an outside perspective, because usually when we're so caught up in the middle of our sitches, we can't always see it clearly.
For them to be raised in a family that acts from love, not fear.
In my experience, people in your situation are usually more afraid of letting go than they are of continuing to fight for the marriage. Are you sure that you're not operating out of fear now? It's no shame to admit that -- most of us do operate out of the very powerful "fear of loss" more than almost anything else.
I do respect your strong willingness to fight for your marriage and your family. I just want to challenge you to put SOME sort of an end-date on it, for your own emotional health and that of your kids.
Starsky
Familiar pattern retained = familiar reactive behaviour
Humans are habitual.
He (a WAS) is possibly basing his experience on PAST behaviour.
Change yourself = new behaviour and possibly new reaction
IF
He NOTICES...
Therefore, as I interpret MWD and some situations of infidelity where LBS distance may have been the root... a different behaviour by the LBS might create a different reaction from the WAS...
So... GET HIS ATTENTION... which might be through POSITIVE contact (negative contact SHOULD be PAST behaviour).
Problem is... that MIGHT be MWD's "soft" approach or recommended by a coach... and then it's reported on this forum and immediately called "pursuit"...
IT IS NOT (IMHO) pursuit...
It is SIMPLY getting the WAS's attention in positive ways...
And then...
back off a touch...
see if it results in pursuit by the WAS...
KG and Bustingout,
From what I understood in this thread, Denver's W returned when she trusted him and came to believe he could meet her needs better than OM.
So my dilemma is how would I be able to show a stubborn, resolute H that our M can work by going dark and detaching, thus leaving OW to continue fulfilling his every need.
On the other hand, I am not saying I will let him come and go as he pleases or that I would sleep with him if he wanted to. That is a personal boundary I would enforce. So where do I draw the line and how can I reconnect?
I hope I am making sense here. This is something I have been struggling with for a long time - boundaries vs. doing something different. I am glad it's being addressed in this great thread and I would welcome any feedback or further opinions anyone else may have.
I 100% agree with what Starsky said regarding this^^^.
I don't know either of your situations, but based on what I
believe that you are saying, I think that maybe I need to distinguish my situation a bit here.
I did have the exact same problem. I had not met the emotional needs of my W bc I was emotional distant during our R/M. Details are in my threads, but it was pretty bad.
I also struggled with trying to balance doing my 180 regarding my emotional distance with dealing with an OM.
However, I STILL used distance to my benefit AND STILL never allowed OM to be in my W's life in any way as long as I was an active part of her life. Personally, I was not capable of that, but I also don't think that it was healthy for anyone involved. And it would not have helped my situation because, as Starsky pointed out, my W would never had a chance to miss me or think that she actually might lose me.
Periods of
almost complete blackout: 1) immediately after she left; 2) End of May/Beg of June 2011; 3) August-Sept 2011; 4) end of Jan 2012; 5) May of 2012.
During each of those periods of time, except for January and May of 2012 (and even then she was talking to him) W was "dating" OM.
During the gaps in between those periods, W and I were hanging out a lot, dating, and trying to work towards W committing to R. But, she was NOT, having contact with OM. She did omit the truth a few times that I busted her on, which led to the periods of no contact.
Those periods of no contact occurred because my boundary was "I will not be a part of your life if there is ANY OM in your life".
The distinction between my sitch and what you two are describing is this:
I had the opportunity to show my W my changes because she allowed for those periods of time when she
WANTED to work on our R/M and had decided that she was done with OM.
I was lucky that I got those opportunities. And this is where I think that Starsky always wanted to hit me upside the head... I allowed my W back into my life too easily. She would say that she was done with OM and that she wanted to work on us. I would want the opportunity to spend time with her to show her how good our M could be with my new found changes. This is where I struggled to balance things and with my boundaries.
But NOT when she was actively seeing OM.
During those dark out times, I would only have contact with my W when she initiated it or when I was setting something up to see my step son.
During those dark out times, I was waiting out the R with OM. I truly tried to work on detaching myself from W during those times. I knew that there was the possibility that her R with OM could grow and that it could ultimately result in her calling me to tell me that she was ready for a D. But I HAD to let this happen and let the cards fall as they would. As Starsky said, our S's are/were not going to see our changes as long as OP is involved.
I always had
faith that I was the better man and that it was just a matter of time before W would see that and end things with OM. That is how I survived emotionally (but barely).
How can you show your H's 180s or that you are doing something different during periods where you remove yourself while they are with their OW's? Your only opportunities will be the brief encounters that you may have when they contact you, when you have contact re children, bills, or whatever. You use those brief encounters to be upbeat, happy, funny, attractive, and whatever else caused them to fall in love with you in the first place. But you DO NOT pursue.
This is how I handled it. And it was most important during the time right after my W left me. My contact with her would sometimes only be a minute or two. But I made sure that I was those things ^^^.
Each time that we had of those darkout periods, my W would end up initiating contact with me. A ridiculous text about how to make spaghetti sauce, about a sale at Banana Rep, whatever... then a little more contact... then she'd be saying that she missed me and loved me...
She came to me. I did not pursue her. I think that one
possible mistake that I made was allowing her back in too easily.
So THAT is my point: You have to wait out the A's, if you want and can... and you have to let your H's come to you.
If they don't, then Chatterbug is probably correct... it is an exit A.
I know that I'm long winded, but I hope that made sense.
Denver
Basic question for the "I will not be in you life if he/she is" approach.
What if you're, as a person for the last few years, a dick/bitch when you issue that ulitmatum?
Also, to consider... how does the LBS know about the status of the A and OP, unless they are snooping... and being focused ON the infidelity... is "snooping by way of verifying"
The only thing one will ever know is... doing the same thing will change nothing...
MWD's messages are quite clear of, focus on oneself, change one's behaviours in positive ways, infidelity is a symptom, ignore the OP, allow the WAS to see the LBS' positive changes.
Familiar pattern retained = familiar reactive behaviour
Humans are habitual.
He (a WAS) is possibly basing his experience on PAST behaviour.
Change yourself = new behaviour and possibly new reaction
IF
He NOTICES...
Therefore, as I interpret MWD and some situations of infidelity where LBS distance may have been the root... a different behaviour by the LBS might create a different reaction from the WAS...
So... GET HIS ATTENTION... which might be through POSITIVE contact (negative contact SHOULD be PAST behaviour).
Problem is... that MIGHT be MWD's "soft" approach or recommended by a coach... and then it's reported on this forum and immediately called "pursuit"...
IT IS NOT (IMHO) pursuit...
It is SIMPLY getting the WAS's attention in positive ways...
And then...
back off a touch...
see if it results in pursuit by the WAS...
I am defining "pursuit" as MWD defines it (not how the forum does), in the context of her "Afer the Last Resort" technique.
Which, I would think, would be where KG should be after 20 months of a continuing, open, unrepentant affair.
Starsky
AtLRT is after OTHER options have been tried, according to MWD.
Has KG and BO tried other efforts first? What were the results, regardless of time frame. That could simply be an indicator that other soft approaches weren't working. Being dim / dark / NC for 20 months would possibly have the same results.
If the WAS is in a 20 month R with the OP, then chances are, they've already decided they won't be in a R with the LBS. The LBS is therefore, stating the obvious to the WAS.
Basic question for the "I will not be in you life if he/she is" approach.
What if you're, as a person for the last few years, a dick/bitch when you issue that ulitmatum?
This is why I believe in a "dual-track" approach: you simultaneously work on NOT being a di*k/beotch, and becoming a better you, WHILE you enforce the hard "I will not be in your life while OM/OW is in yours" boundary.
Starsky
If they choose the OM/OW how will they see that you have changed as a person, if you're not going to be around them?
One of the main issues in our M was that my H felt unapprecaited and abandoned. We also fought a lot and I had a short fuse.
His needs were NOT met by me . . .
KG,
Again, I apologize but I don't know your sitch other than your recent posts here on this thread. DO YOU genuinely believe these were VALID prior (pre-husband's-affair) marital complaints? WERE you unappreciative, abandoning and uncaring toward meeting your husband's emotional needs? Did he ever (even often) express these things to you BEFORE he had hia affair?
Or are these just the classic "re-writing of marital history" that goes on in nearly all affairs?
Big, BIG difference, and I'm just trying to better understand your sitch.
Starsky
If they choose the OM/OW how will they see that you have changed as a person, if you're not going to be around them?
I will admit, it's easier for a betrayed husband (than wife) to pull this off, as women seem to be FAR better at the whole "trust me, it WILL get back to them" backchannel thing. But even when it's a cheating husband/betrayed wife, I do think that things get back to the wayward husband about the improvements that the wife is making back at home.
I also believe that you can demonstrate your changes during the brief encounters you have with them, as Denver describes in his most recent post. Not only in how you directly interact with them, but in how you allow them to see you interacting with others (your kids, your friends, neighbors, her family/friends, etc.).
If my wayward wife sees me being a great listener, empathetic and charming towards other women at, say, a block party (or if she gets wind that I was), it will register that I've made positive changes . . . without me having to charm HER while she's cheating on me.
Starsky
I will admit, it's easier for a betrayed husband (than wife) to pull this off, as women seem to be FAR better at the whole "trust me, it WILL get back to them" backchannel thing.
Oh, and the "GOOD news" part of this gender dynamic is, if you think Denver's WIFE pursued him every single time he pulled away and went dim/dark on her, wait'll you see how well this works with wayward MEN. Because us guys are natural pursuers, and we want what we can't have, and we are competitive sonsabitches who VALUE THE THRILL OF THE CHASE.
Starsky
KG first I want to apologise for hijacking your post. What you initially wrote expressed a lot of what I feel and wonder about that I have a hard time expressing. It hit home. I'm sorry.
Denver, thank you for your post. Your story is inspiring and I am very happy for you. :-)
Ok-- I get it. I do understand the concept of no pursuit while H is with OW. I really do. And I admit, before I found DB I was doing that. He did not miss me, I am sure he lost a lot of respect for me, and to be honest, after I started DB unrealised I had lost a lot of respect for myself as well.
I found DB in May. My sitch has been going on since 2010. I stopped pursuit immediately. I went complete NC. It took two weeks and he contacted me about the
kids.
I wont go into the details of my sitch here but H is working on a project in another town. So he has not been with us in the same town since April. I do not see him ( there were a couple of times he met us during the summer when we were abroad).
I remained NC. I let him initiate contact with regards to any business matters or the kids. I understand that I need to outlast the affair if there is a chance ( unless like chatter said it is an exit affair, which I had not thought about before).
I do not want to give him myself while he is with OW. I have started to realise and have faith in myself that I am and can be a better person. I am regainging my self esteem.I am doing a lot of work on that.
I will not allow R with OW in the picture. No, he has not expressed any missing of me or desire to come back, but I was pursuing him from day one of our sitch. It's only since DB that I have been NOT pursuing, etc. It's only now that he MAY start missing me,
rethinking...etc.
But he is not here, so the only chances he may see that are when we do have these brief convos about the kids or money matters. And the couple of times we saw each other over the summer, I DB' d my a$$ off.
I am warm, I am upbeat, I am more genuine, positive. I am seeing beyond my own nose. My kids don't see me crying anymore, miserable. I am not drinking myself to sleep anymore. I am reengaging in MY life again. In my kids' lives again.
IF h decided that he was curious about what was going on with me, if OW was out, then I would consider R. For me, for my kids, for the family I always wanted to create.
By no means do I believe that just because OW may be out of the picture one day he will come running back. And even if he did, I know that is still not enough to R.
I guess with all of this distance between us, anxiety sometimes builds... Curiosity builds...' should I do something different?' I think. But we learn. And we listen to those that have walked our paths.
Maybe I am being naive because my sitch has been going on for so long...however since DB I feel like something different has happened. The dynamics have changed because I have changed. And those changes are becoming permanent and real. For te better. Finally.
I am trying to create more time. More time to see if DB and my changes can peak curiosity with him.
I feel there is something starsky is saying that I am still not getting. I don't disagree with you about pursuit. And Denver, yes, the few moments i speak with H i am upbeat, friendly and attractive. Maybe we are differing on timelines?
Time will tell?
And again, I never thought about the concept of an exit affair.
Thank you all for your time and perspectives. I am so appreciative of it all. And KG, apologies again...
If they choose the OM/OW how will they see that you have changed as a person, if you're not going to be around them?
I will admit, it's easier for a betrayed husband (than wife) to pull this off, as women seem to be FAR better at the whole "trust me, it WILL get back to them" backchannel thing. But even when it's a cheating husband/betrayed wife, I do think that things get back to the wayward husband about the improvements that the wife is making back at home.
I also believe that you can demonstrate your changes during the brief encounters you have with them, as Denver describes in his most recent post. Not only in how you directly interact with them, but in how you allow them to see you interacting with others (your kids, your friends, neighbors, her family/friends, etc.).
If my wayward wife sees me being a great listener, empathetic and charming towards other women at, say, a block party (or if she gets wind that I was), it will register that I've made positive changes . . . without me having to charm HER while she's cheating on me.
Starsky
I know what Jack is getting at here. I agree with Starsky, who seems to agree with me!
However, I should have noted in my last post that during my initial period of darkout with W, right after she left me, that I did NOT KNOW that her R with OM has become a PA.
Even so, I did not have much contact with her during that period. I went pretty much dark and waited for her to initiate contact.
I used the short, brief contacts with W to show her that I was making changes. This occurred when she'd call me or text me about something stupid, when I picked up SS to hang out with him a few times and when I dropped xmas presents for SS to W. I also used brief encounters that I had with her family to express that I was changing or that I 'got it'.
At one point, prior to me learning that W's R with OM had become PA, I asked her to do a couple of things and I was lucky that she accepted. A movie with SS and then a day to watch the SB. I used these opportunities as well.
HAD I known at that time that W's R with OM had become PA, I don't know what I would have done... would I have invited her to do those two things? I simply don't know. It would have much more difficult for me to put myself in that position, that much I do know.
Almost immediately after learning of the PA, we went into that first period of trying to work on things... after that, my boundary was 'no OM if me' (although wishy washy enforcement at first).
So that's full disclosure.
Again, as I've stated many times recently, I strongly believe that there is no 'right' answer, that each sitch is unique, and that we all have to apply DB as a guideline to what we believe will 'work' for our own situations.
Generally speaking though, I don't think that I would advise spending time with a WAS who is actively dating or having an A with an OP.
If you were a real d!ck or b!tch with WAS prior to the S and the A, you may have to suck it up and open yourself up to spending some time with the WAS in the beginning. I don't know. Depends on what you can tolerate I suppose. I certainly wouldn't advise doing it for very long though.
I think this goes back to the Plan A/Plan B stuff again.
Now, what is your opinion Jack?
I view longer interactions with the spouse as potentially (If the LBS can handle it) being more benficial in showing changes.
Instilling doubt in the WAS, and not showing them that a happy, epathetic LBS might be better off without them or agree with their choices.
I, like you Starsky and Denver, and many other vets agree that "I will not be in your life" boundary is vital and required for a marriage to mend.
So, we agree there and always have.
I think we disagree on the when. And I don't have any faith in back channel information on something this important, in so much that the information isn't telephone game screwed up by the time it gets to the spouse.
I will admit, I am starting to realise that I do love him enough to let him go. But yes, my fear of loss is holding me back from letting go completely.
NOT that I pursue. What he sees is the DB busting. No pursuit. No fear. Friendly, upbeat, warm, validating. He no longer sees, hears or reads about the old busting.
And the remnants of the old busting are just for me and this board. But hey are remnants.
I have thought about whether or not I am fighting for the M and my family or for the fear of loss.
If I am honest right now, its both. I fear the loss of my family again. I don't want my kids to live with the emptiness I lived with. And I don't want their parents to be miserable like mine were.
Starsky - I so appreciate the challenges you present, because I want to dig deeper. I have not thought of a timeline to be honest. I want to outlast to see if there is a chance.
I view longer interactions with the spouse as potentially (If the LBS can handle it) being more benficial in showing changes.
Instilling doubt in the WAS, and not showing them that a happy, epathetic LBS might be better off without them or agree with their choices.
I, like you Starsky and Denver, and many other vets agree that "I will not be in your life" boundary is vital and required for a marriage to mend.
So, we agree there and always have.
I think we disagree on the when. And I don't have any faith in back channel information on something this important, in so much that the information isn't telephone game screwed up by the time it gets to the spouse.
I think that it depends on the specifics of the situation. For me, I have a hard time imagining me being a part of my W's life knowing that she was also with OM.
After this conversation, I now think that I am lucky that I did not know of the PA at the beginning.
Ok-- I get it. I do understand the concept of no pursuit while H is with OW. I really do. And I admit, before I found DB I was doing that. He did not miss me, I am sure he lost a lot of respect for me, and to be honest, after I started DB unrealised I had lost a lot of respect for myself as well.
I found DB in May. My sitch has been going on since 2010. I stopped pursuit immediately. I went complete NC. It took two weeks and he contacted me about the
kids.
. . .
I remained NC. I let him initiate contact with regards to any business matters or the kids. I understand that I need to outlast the affair if there is a chance ( unless like chatter said it is an exit affair, which I had not thought about before).
I do not want to give him myself while he is with OW. I have started to realise and have faith in myself that I am and can be a better person. I am regainging my self esteem.I am doing a lot of work on that.
I will not allow R with OW in the picture. No, he has not expressed any missing of me or desire to come back, but I was pursuing him from day one of our sitch. It's only since DB that I have been NOT pursuing, etc. It's only now that he MAY start missing me,
rethinking...etc.
But he is not here, so the only chances he may see that are when we do have these brief convos about the kids or money matters. And the couple of times we saw each other over the summer, I DB' d my a$$ off.
. . .
By no means do I believe that just because OW may be out of the picture one day he will come running back. And even if he did, I know that is still not enough to R.
. . .
Maybe I am being naive because my sitch has been going on for so long...however since DB I feel like something different has happened. The dynamics have changed because I have changed. And those changes are becoming permanent and real. For te better. Finally.
Then I think you should consider "May 2012" (and not 2010) as your starting point, and give yourself some sort of shorter, yet realistic internal (not communicated to husband) deadline. I usually recommend 3-6 months, if you can last that long (I couldn't).
Starsky
I have not thought of a timeline to be honest. I want to outlast to see if there is a chance.
Trust me, timelines are useless. Been there, done that. Did not work.
You are done when you are done. You will know.
However, I should have noted in my last post that during my initial period of darkout with W, right after she left me, that I did NOT KNOW that her R with OM has become a PA.
Even so, I did not have much contact with her during that period. I went pretty much dark and waited for her to initiate contact.
I used the short, brief contacts with W to show her that I was making changes. This occurred when she'd call me or text me about something stupid, when I picked up SS to hang out with him a few times and when I dropped xmas presents for SS to W. I also used brief encounters that I had with her family to express that I was changing or that I 'got it'.
At one point, prior to me learning that W's R with OM had become PA, I asked her to do a couple of things and I was lucky that she accepted. A movie with SS and then a day to watch the SB. I used these opportunities as well.
HAD I known at that time that W's R with OM had become PA, I don't know what I would have done...
This is why I frequently make the distinction "Once you know that they're cheating, and THEY KNOW THAT YOU KNOW, and then you don't lay out firm boundaries . . . " etc.
I do think there is a big difference. Because if you know, but they don't KNOW that you know, then your "pursuit" will be seen in an entirely different light than if they KNOW that you know.
You know?
They'll still be avoiding having to make a choice, because they'll be getting some of their emotional and physical needs met by OM/OW, while getting the rest met by their betrayed spouse, but at least there won't be any of the whole "they're rapidly losing respect for you" dynamic going on . . . because they don't know that you know.
Does that make sense?
Starsky
I view longer interactions with the spouse as potentially (If the LBS can handle it) being more benficial in showing changes.
Instilling doubt in the WAS, and not showing them that a happy, epathetic LBS might be better off without them or agree with their choices.
I, like you Starsky and Denver, and many other vets agree that "I will not be in your life" boundary is vital and required for a marriage to mend.
So, we agree there and always have.
I think we disagree on the when. And I don't have any faith in back channel information on something this important, in so much that the information isn't telephone game screwed up by the time it gets to the spouse.
So then what's your solution? Remain in the marital home together, as co-inhabitants (so they can see your changes being lived out in front of them), but no longer act fully as their spouse? (no LM, no "BFF", etc.?)
I tell when you're upset you don't sign Starsky.
It's not my goal to upset you.
MY solution?
It worked for me.
YOUR solution worked for you.
And Denver's a mix of both at times work for him.
All of them, are based upon our Interpretation of MWD and DR.
Right now you're putting words in my mouth.
So then what's your solution? Remain in the marital home together, as co-inhabitants (so they can see your changes being lived out in front of them), but no longer act fully as their spouse?
Do I do that to you?
Do I make your solution seem...weak?
Do I deserve that?
There is more than one path, there is more than one right way to do this. As evidence by you, Denver and me.
I tell when you're upset you don't sign Starsky.
It's not my goal to upset you.
MY solution?
It worked for me.
YOUR solution worked for you.
And Denver's a mix of both at times work for him.
All of them, are based upon our Interpretation of MWD and DR.
Right now you're putting words in my mouth.
So then what's your solution? Remain in the marital home together, as co-inhabitants (so they can see your changes being lived out in front of them), but no longer act fully as their spouse?
Do I do that to you?
Do I make your solution seem...weak?
Do I deserve that?
There is more than one path, there is more than one right way to do this. As evidence by you, Denver and me.
Wow . . . mindread much? This was sooooooooooooooooo totally not what I meant . . .
So then what's your solution? Remain in the marital home together, as co-inhabitants (so they can see your changes being lived out in front of them), but no longer act fully as their spouse? (no LM, no "BFF", etc.?)
Actually, I was not upset AT ALL, and I suggested this as a very viable short-term "solution" for people. Primarily driven by the horrible economy, a LOT of married couples are opting for this, and staying in the same home while they struggle to reconcile their marriages (or even just agree to act as separated).
It was a very serious suggestion as to how to overcome the whole "how do I maintain my boundary, while still having them be near enough to me to notice my changes?" dilemma.
I'm sorry if it came across as anything personal, Jack. I HOPE that you would know me well enough by now to know that I wouldn't take that kind of swipe at you.
Starsky
There is more than one path, there is more than one right way to do this. As evidence by you, Denver and me.
Agreed ^^^
I would add that, for me, there is no chance in h#ll that I would have continued to live in the same house, let alone the same bed, if my W was in a PA with an OM. I DO know that.
I can't remember if I've ever documented this on this board, but when I found out the W was actively confiding in OM and having an EA, which my W has confirmed, I believe, that that's all it was at that time, I was angry, I yelled, I threatened OM, and I kicked her out of the house. The night before this happened was the last night that she spent in our home until she moved back 2 months ago.
And that was just for the EA.
That is just me.
Hi KD-
Yes, my coach emphasised this..positive interactions, not pursuit. For the reasons you posted...
Has KG and BO tried other efforts first? What were the results, regardless of time frame. That could simply be an indicator that other soft approaches weren't working. Being dim / dark / NC for 20 months would possibly have the same results.
I have only tried LRT. That was the stage of my sitch when I found DB
There is more than one path, there is more than one right way to do this. As evidence by you, Denver and me.
Agreed ^^^
I would add that, for me, there is no chance in h#ll that I would have continued to live in the same house, let alone the same bed, if my W was in a PA with an OM. I DO know that.
I can't remember if I've ever documented this on this board, but when I found out the W was actively confiding in OM and having an EA, which my W has confirmed, I believe, that that's all it was at that time, I was angry, I yelled, I threatened OM, and I kicked her out of the house. The night before this happened was the last night that she spent in our home until she moved back 2 months ago.
And that was just for the EA.
That is just me.
Oh... do have to admit that this was weeks before I found DB and DR or this website...
AND..
I spent that night and many more afterwards in the fetal position so to speak! LOL
If they choose the OM/OW how will they see that you have changed as a person, if you're not going to be around them?
Truthfully who cares.
You improve for yourself.
Ment to add. The BS should be concentrating on healing , rebuilding self esteem , correcting poor behaviors.
All to make them a better person.
This is not dependent upon their partner or ex-partner
So yes, BO you indicate that once you found DB, your initial "technique" was LRT. As was mine. Saddly, many who end up here are in need of LRT. It is actually one of the first directives by vets to newbies.
In this initial case though, LRT would be for the LBS to settle themselves and is to be temporary. After that, we "begin with beginner's mind" and go through the book in the soft approaches.
I've noticed what we seem to have in this thread though, is a showing of two, distinct approaches.
The grey approach (ignore the OP, they are a symptom) and the black/white approach (no R with OP in picture).
Personally, I came here black/white. I left the home because of the OP being in the picture and would not have anything to do with my W while there WERE OPs.
It took me to realize that, once the OP is in play...
AN M IS DEAD!
Once I began to operate on that mind frame, it does not matter whether the OP is in play or not...
We ain't M.
And then... I can stop focusing on the OP and start focusing on the real task at hand. Working on myself and building a friendship... rather than fixing a M...
That, for me, is the "soft" approach. Who cares about the OP... there is no M to save... every interaction with my W is now from a place of getting to know any woman who is NOT M to me and in a R with someone else.
If they choose the OM/OW how will they see that you have changed as a person, if you're not going to be around them?
Truthfully who cares.
You improve for yourself.
Gotta disagree here. Whatever approach you end up using, I strongly believe that the whole point is to save the M. At least until the WAS is ready to move on themselves. It's why we came here, why we read the books... it's why we care...
Meant to add that improving ourselves seems to be part and parcel of what we are trying to do... save the M. And that is definitely good. Whether or not they end up saving the M.
I agree with you on this KD. In my case, W told me a few weeks ago about OM and I told her that I thought is was wrong and that I disagreed with it but she told me that she didn't consider herself married anymore so in her mind, there was nothing wrong with OM.
Since then, as hard as it has been, I've been working on re-establishing a friendship with W. I've been trying to get rid of any negativity that is/was between us so that every moment we spend together is seen as positive by her. Mind you, we are separated so it's not like we share a bed or a home. I don't think I would agree to that either, Denver.
I guess I am probably still a bit too involved, and available, but since she's already asked for divorce but isn't pursuing it), and since I hadn't read DR yet (I now got it and am reading it avidly)I was just trying not to make too many waves. Once I've read DR, I'll see what i need to do.
Like you say, KD, it's like trying to get to know a stranger who might, or might not be involved with someone else.
yea but its not a stranger and they are involved with someone else.
Its like if someone said why not go on a date yourself.
Most people would reply with
1. I have no respect for a woman who would date a married man.
Yet they would jump at the opportunity to date their cheating wife even if they were still actively involved in an affair.
There is a cognitive dissonance at play here.
And that is what we are truly talking about here in the background.
Cognitive dissonance
I'll take it one step further and say that the more they do it, often times the more their betrayed spouse begins to pursue them . . . hard.
What made most of us come here in the first place? What woke us up from our lazy "I was a decent spouse, but nobody's picnic" marital mediocrity? Made us read self-help books, work out, lose weight, look better/dress better/smell better?
Our spouses cheated on us.
Strange dynamic, hunh? And yet, it's that "threat of loss" -- that pulling away -- that makes us pursue.
The key, young Grasshoppah, is to LEARN that most basic of human dynamics, and to FLIP IT to your advantage.
Where's Gooch when we need him??
Starsky
I'll take it one step further and say that the more they do it, often times the more their betrayed spouse begins to pursue them . . . hard.
What made most of us come here in the first place? What woke us up from our lazy "I was a decent spouse, but nobody's picnic" marital mediocrity? Made us read self-help books, work out, lose weight, look better/dress better/smell better?
Our spouses cheated on us.
Strange dynamic, hunh? And yet, it's that "threat of loss" -- that pulling away -- that makes us pursue.
The key, young Grasshoppah, is to LEARN that most basic of human dynamics, and to FLIP IT to your advantage.
Where's Gooch when we need him??
Starsky
Absolutely. But many, most, times, they are leaving the LBS, or choosing an OP, because there has been something missing in their R with LBS. So they probably don't fear losing the LBS at the beginning. In those cases, gotta give them something to fear losing.
Absolutely. But many, most, times, they are leaving the LBS, or choosing an OP, because there has been something missing in their R with LBS. So they probably don't fear losing the LBS at the beginning. In those cases, gotta give them something to fear losing.
I don't disagree. I'm in favor of a short "Plan A" before going to bigger guns, esp. if you were legitimately an ass prior to the wayward spouse's infidelity.
I'm mainly trying to point out the basic "push/pull" laws of human dynamics, esp. romantic interpersonal relationships. It never ceases to amaze me how LBSs can't understand how their spouse's DUMPING them made them wake up, and begin to pursue them, and to learn to use that to their advantage (within a framework of legitimate self-improvement).
Some times they go do it because they themselves are an ass.
Agreed Starsky.
And, yes, that is also true Chatterbug. Some people ARE simply asses.
One of the main issues in our M was that my H felt unapprecaited and abandoned. We also fought a lot and I had a short fuse.
His needs were NOT met by me . . .
KG,
Again, I apologize but I don't know your sitch other than your recent posts here on this thread. DO YOU genuinely believe these were VALID prior (pre-husband's-affair) marital complaints? WERE you unappreciative, abandoning and uncaring toward meeting your husband's emotional needs? Did he ever (even often) express these things to you BEFORE he had hia affair?
Or are these just the classic "re-writing of marital history" that goes on in nearly all affairs?
Big, BIG difference, and I'm just trying to better understand your sitch.
Starsky
I believe my H's complaints are valid in the way I describe them. (One thing I've done right since he left is A LOT of introspective, honest work to see where I failed). Yet, he is telling anyone that I abused him emotionally for 13 years of marriage and he left to save our children from my abuse, so yes, there has also been some re-writing going on.
I will try to give some context to my sitch...
As soon as H left, I started working on myself. After a few months I saw improvements - he started confiding in me, sharing and we even went out on three dates. I had no boundaries in place at the time - he came and went as he wished, saw the kids and socialized with us when he wanted, etc.
I found out about OW about a month into our S, but didn't confront until it all became too much for me - about 7 months into our S. After that, I was very inconsistent - either trying to set boundaries and going dim or trying to be friendly and compete with OW.
Right after the birth of our son a year ago, I realized he had just been cake-eating when he told me he was going public with his R with OW. I immediately stopped pursuing and set boundaries - most of the time I did not initiate contact and we stopped doing things as a family. But we argued a lot due to my lack of detachment. He distanced himself again and started introducing OW to friends and relatives and asked his family not to invite me to functions anymore.
Yet, in the last six months or so, he has done a 180 on me. He wants to be friends and makes an effort to improve our communication, but always being clear that OW is here to stay. He wants me to accept her and her involvement in our children's lives (to which I have always been absolutely against until we are divorced - and that has been the source of all our arguments in the last year.
It doesn't help that from what I have learned (and I snooped A LOT at the beginning), OW is actually a nice person and my H always told her we were done and he would never come back since I was abusive to him. He has told me that OW pushes him to get along with me and if it wasn't for her, our R would be a lot worse and she wants to be a good influence in my kids lives. Cannot compete with that right now...
I don't think my H is in MLC. Yes, at first he was depressed but he seems his old self again (minus his love for me). He has re-connected with old friends and family, is working on himself to become a better person and make himself happy. He GALs constantly and he wants me to find someone to be happy with. (Sometimes when he talks, I think he has read DR himself!) He has once again become the excellent father he was before leaving and is excited about making OW part of their lives too.
So his behavior doesn't really match what others here describe about their SO's - as dealing with depression, confusion, loss of a close relative, erratic behavior, selfishness, doubts, lack of self esteem, having doubts about the R, or having a loser OP.
So why are we not D yet?
H has been trying to convince me to do a collaborative D process, be amicable and do it cheaper for the sake of our kids and to be better co-parents.
Following advice from DB coach I told him I understand he wants a D and I won't stand in his way, but won't help him either since I don't want it. Yet he has taken this as me trying to control and stall the D process.
(Just this morning he sent me another email asking me to please reconsider and agree to a collaborative divorce.)
Sorry for the long post... I tried to summarize my sitch as best as I could. I feel that my H's current behavior is unique and am just looking for the best approach at this time.
Thanks again for a great thread.
It doesn't help that from what I have learned (and I snooped A LOT at the beginning), OW is actually a nice person and my H always told her we were done and he would never come back since I was abusive to him. He has told me that OW pushes him to get along with me and if it wasn't for her, our R would be a lot worse and she wants to be a good influence in my kids lives. Cannot compete with that right now...
seems to me, if she were such a "nice person" she wouldn't be taking another woman's husband. so he told her you are "abusive" and that isn't true, right? yet she conveniently believes it, even though by now she should have realized he is lying. all the rest ("pushes him to get along with me" etc) is just - she is stealing what is yours, and giving you the crumbs.
Absolutely. But many, most, times, they are leaving the LBS, or choosing an OP, because there has been something missing in their R with LBS. So they probably don't fear losing the LBS at the beginning. In those cases, gotta give them something to fear losing.
I don't disagree. I'm in favor of
a short "Plan A" before going to bigger guns, esp.
if you were legitimately an ass prior to the wayward spouse's infidelity.
Denver, that is also what I'm thinking, especially that W looks like she's going through MLC and doesn't like me at all right now.
Starsky, I don't think I was that big of an ass but I was no saint either and I willingly take a huge share of the responsibility in this. I think I might be getting to the point where I would switch to the Starsky way very soon because I'm not sure how much more "plan A" I have in me at this point.
I'm mainly trying to point out the basic "push/pull" laws of human dynamics, esp. romantic interpersonal relationships. It never ceases to amaze me how LBSs can't understand how their spouse's DUMPING them made them wake up, and begin to pursue them, and to learn to use that to their advantage (within a framework of legitimate self-improvement).
Starsky: Great post....I think its exactly where I find myself today. I do have one question though, and mind you I have read DB and DR but can't seem to find DR so its been a few years since I read it. What are the big guns? Are you talking about exposure? I know thats a grand debate here...my question is this, I don't know for sure about OM....I think there is (I know mind-reading but lets just say i've been here before and kind of know the signs) so as of this week i've decided to treat it that way. Which really is a change of approach for me, before I was gray at best and trying to be friendly....im pretty black right now and while cordial im not really shooting for friendly. Im not ready to snoop and get evidence yet...mainly b/c of the whole she may file in a month thing. If that happens then the entire dynamic changes in my mind and not only will my lawyer drag this out 18 months, i'll be more....for lack of a better word agressive in finding out info.
And i'd also like to share to all the other LBS out there. 6 years ago when we seperated due to PA my wife said the exact words that all of them seem to say....that to her it was over so it wasn't cheating. We all know its absurd...but surely at least logically we can all understand that they have to rationalize it in their head that way, if they don't then they have to look in the mirror and admit they're "bad" people going against their own morals. Its no different than someone who has always said divorce was bad for kids now saying that the kids will bounce back and it won't affect them...its pure rationalization...changing the story to fit just like happens in every other aspect.
Starsky and others.....ive got a few more questions that are unrelated so I won't post here but if you wouldnt mind checking my thread later i'd appreciate your input.
One of the main issues in our M was that my H felt unapprecaited and abandoned. We also fought a lot and I had a short fuse.
His needs were NOT met by me . . .
KG,
Again, I apologize but I don't know your sitch other than your recent posts here on this thread. DO YOU genuinely believe these were VALID prior (pre-husband's-affair) marital complaints? WERE you unappreciative, abandoning and uncaring toward meeting your husband's emotional needs? Did he ever (even often) express these things to you BEFORE he had hia affair?
Or are these just the classic "re-writing of marital history" that goes on in nearly all affairs?
Big, BIG difference, and I'm just trying to better understand your sitch.
Starsky
I believe my H's complaints are valid in the way I describe them. (One thing I've done right since he left is A LOT of introspective, honest work to see where I failed). Yet, he is telling anyone that I abused him emotionally for 13 years of marriage and he left to save our children from my abuse, so yes, there has also been some re-writing going on.
I will try to give some context to my sitch...
As soon as H left, I started working on myself. After a few months I saw improvements - he started confiding in me, sharing and we even went out on three dates. I had no boundaries in place at the time - he came and went as he wished, saw the kids and socialized with us when he wanted, etc.
I found out about OW about a month into our S, but didn't confront until it all became too much for me - about 7 months into our S. After that, I was very inconsistent - either trying to set boundaries and going dim or trying to be friendly and compete with OW.
Right after the birth of our son a year ago, I realized he had just been cake-eating when he told me he was going public with his R with OW. I immediately stopped pursuing and set boundaries - most of the time I did not initiate contact and we stopped doing things as a family. But we argued a lot due to my lack of detachment. He distanced himself again and started introducing OW to friends and relatives and asked his family not to invite me to functions anymore.
Yet, in the last six months or so, he has done a 180 on me. He wants to be friends and makes an effort to improve our communication, but always being clear that OW is here to stay. He wants me to accept her and her involvement in our children's lives (to which I have always been absolutely against until we are divorced - and that has been the source of all our arguments in the last year.
It doesn't help that from what I have learned (and I snooped A LOT at the beginning), OW is actually a nice person and my H always told her we were done and he would never come back since I was abusive to him. He has told me that OW pushes him to get along with me and if it wasn't for her, our R would be a lot worse and she wants to be a good influence in my kids lives. Cannot compete with that right now...
I don't think my H is in MLC. Yes, at first he was depressed but he seems his old self again (minus his love for me). He has re-connected with old friends and family, is working on himself to become a better person and make himself happy. He GALs constantly and he wants me to find someone to be happy with. (Sometimes when he talks, I think he has read DR himself!) He has once again become the excellent father he was before leaving and is excited about making OW part of their lives too.
So his behavior doesn't really match what others here describe about their SO's - as dealing with depression, confusion, loss of a close relative, erratic behavior, selfishness, doubts, lack of self esteem, having doubts about the R, or having a loser OP.
So why are we not D yet?
H has been trying to convince me to do a collaborative D process, be amicable and do it cheaper for the sake of our kids and to be better co-parents.
Following advice from DB coach I told him I understand he wants a D and I won't stand in his way, but won't help him either since I don't want it. Yet he has taken this as me trying to control and stall the D process.
(Just this morning he sent me another email asking me to please reconsider and agree to a collaborative divorce.)
Sorry for the long post... I tried to summarize my sitch as best as I could. I feel that my H's current behavior is unique and am just looking for the best approach at this time.
Thanks again for a great thread.
KG, thank you for the long and thorough post. It was excellent, and really helps me understand your sitch better. Do you have your own thread that I can comment further? I do think your situation seems a little different than most.
Starsky
It doesn't help that from what I have learned (and I snooped A LOT at the beginning), OW is actually a nice person and my H always told her we were done and he would never come back since I was abusive to him. He has told me that OW pushes him to get along with me and if it wasn't for her, our R would be a lot worse and she wants to be a good influence in my kids lives. Cannot compete with that right now...
seems to me, if she were such a "nice person" she wouldn't be taking another woman's husband. so he told her you are "abusive" and that isn't true, right? yet she conveniently believes it, even though by now she should have realized he is lying. all the rest ("pushes him to get along with me" etc) is just - she is stealing what is yours, and giving you the crumbs.
Well, what's interesting to me is, if she DOES believe this, then why would she be pushing him to have a greater and better relationship with KG? And if she DOESN'T believe it, then why does she claim to be in love with a liar -- someone that would lie about his children's OWN MOTHER?
Starsky
I think I might be getting to the point where I would switch to the Starsky way very soon because I'm not sure how much more "plan A" I have in me at this point.
"The Starsky way" -- lol!!! That gave me a chuckle this morning. Actually, it's not my way -- a "tough love" stance is either fully, or part of, most infidelity authors' plan. Whether it's MWD's "After the Last Resort Technique," Harley's "Plan B" or Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough," most of the things that I recommend to some people aren't really unique. However, if I had to summarize my own personal approach, it would be this (which I copied and pasted here from my personal archives):
Throughout all of these "tough stances," I maintained a "loving detachment" towards my wayward wife. Oh, we had our moments -- three or four real blow-ups -- but for the most part, we managed to keep things civil. I laid out some boundaries (no family finances used to enable your affair, no TMing or phoning OM from inside our home, no TMing or phoning OM in front of our sons, from ANYWHERE, if you're going to come home after 1am, don't bother coming home, etc.), and I must say, she respected them almost completely.
The "loving" part of "loving detachment" comes easier for you, trust me, when you maintain full intel ("snooping") and you hear and see the things that I heard and saw. But I did try to "shine a light back towards the marriage, even as I never wavered from my Main Boundary ("I will not live in an open marriage") and my sub-boundaries mentioned above. I would do occasional loving Acts of Service for my wife, such as pulling her car in the garage late at nite, or covering her with a blanket when she fell asleep on the couch, kissing her on the forehead, etc.
I believe that this "hybrid" approach -- aggressive confrontation & exposure, firm boundaries, cut off all financial enabling, strong legal stance; coupled with DBing principles such as GAL, "be the better option," 180s, etc. -- is what works best when there is active infidelity involved.
Reasonable people may disagree, but this is what worked for me, and this is also what I have seen work in my time on these boards, as well as my study of literally thousands of affairs.
I should add this as a P.S.:
Exposure is NOT recommended by MWD. I only mention it above as part of the "how did you detach?" question, since you asked me.
I'm mainly trying to point out the basic "push/pull" laws of human dynamics, esp. romantic interpersonal relationships. It never ceases to amaze me how LBSs can't understand how their spouse's DUMPING them made them wake up, and begin to pursue them, and to learn to use that to their advantage (within a framework of legitimate self-improvement).
Starsky: Great post....I think its exactly where I find myself today. I do have one question though, and mind you I have read DB and DR but can't seem to find DR so its been a few years since I read it. What are the big guns? Are you talking about exposure? I know thats a grand debate here...my question is this, I don't know for sure about OM....I think there is (I know mind-reading but lets just say i've been here before and kind of know the signs) so as of this week i've decided to treat it that way. Which really is a change of approach for me, before I was gray at best and trying to be friendly....im pretty black right now and while cordial im not really shooting for friendly. Im not ready to snoop and get evidence yet...mainly b/c of the whole she may file in a month thing. If that happens then the entire dynamic changes in my mind and not only will my lawyer drag this out 18 months, i'll be more....for lack of a better word agressive in finding out info.
And i'd also like to share to all the other LBS out there. 6 years ago when we seperated due to PA my wife said the exact words that all of them seem to say....that to her it was over so it wasn't cheating. We all know its absurd...but surely at least logically we can all understand that they have to rationalize it in their head that way, if they don't then they have to look in the mirror and admit they're "bad" people going against their own morals. Its no different than someone who has always said divorce was bad for kids now saying that the kids will bounce back and it won't affect them...its pure rationalization...changing the story to fit just like happens in every other aspect.
Starsky and others.....ive got a few more questions that are unrelated so I won't post here but if you wouldnt mind checking my thread later i'd appreciate your input.
Carnac,
Not really sure what you're referring to by "big guns," since I didn't mention that, at least not in the quote you provided. I'll try to check out your thread, but if you want, I'm going to start hanging out more on my "Transparency" thread here, and can answer any questions you might have. I do think you should trust your gut, though.
Starsky
I think I might be getting to the point where I would switch to the Starsky way very soon because I'm not sure how much more "plan A" I have in me at this point.
Just be sure to give it adequate time Arsene. I know that it seems like an eternity, but you have not been at this long at all. Don't quit just because you are in pain.
Each person has their own threshold for it though. Only you can decide.
Arsene:
Im with Denver, don't give up too soon, im in the same boat wondering how much more I can take, wondering how long I have to let this go on...feeling like im going to explode any minute. And our situations are pretty similar, my wife clearly doesn't like being around me right now.
Get your strength from within, but also read back over Denver's thread or Starsky's thread, we're no different than they were and as well as they are doing today, they thought they couldnt take anymore a long time ago as well. I wrote my wife a nice long email just a couple of days ago.....its actually some of my writing and some cut and paste of different portions of peoples emails that i've seen on here, but its simply sitting in my drafts. I'll send it someday when I truly get to my last drop, but thats not today.
You have to decide when to switch, but make sure you've given yourself time enough to change first, and then that you've given those changes time enough to be seen.
KG, thank you for the long and thorough post. It was excellent, and really helps me understand your sitch better. Do you have your own thread that I can comment further? I do think your situation seems a little different than most.
Starsky
Starsky -
Thanks again for your interest in my sitch. I just started a new thread in Newcomers, since that is where I had mine in the past.
I look forward to hearing yours or anyone else's thoughts and advice.
Thanks!
It doesn't help that from what I have learned (and I snooped A LOT at the beginning), OW is actually a nice person and my H always told her we were done and he would never come back since I was abusive to him. He has told me that OW pushes him to get along with me and if it wasn't for her, our R would be a lot worse and she wants to be a good influence in my kids lives. Cannot compete with that right now...
seems to me, if she were such a "nice person" she wouldn't be taking another woman's husband. so he told her you are "abusive" and that isn't true, right? yet she conveniently believes it, even though by now she should have realized he is lying. all the rest ("pushes him to get along with me" etc) is just - she is stealing what is yours, and giving you the crumbs.
Too-
Thanks for the input.
We have had a rocky separation, with lots or arguing at times, so I have been a pretty mediocre DBer at best in that regard and it has just fueled and validated my Hs argument to OW.
From findings of my own (thru snooping), I do believe OW would have never considered my H if she thought our M had a chance. I think in most affairs the offending spouse has to lie to some degree to OP (and themselves) about R and spouse.
At the end of the day, it's my Hs perception of OW what matters. I had included this info about OW only to highlight the impossibility of competing with the affair, which is something that I always believed anyways, even if OP was a loser.
I think everyone needs to be reminded -- and fully ponder -- that "letting go" doesn't necessarily mean "giving up."
Sometimes, in fact, it is when true progress is made.
Just food for thought.
Starsky
It doesn't help that from what I have learned (and I snooped A LOT at the beginning), OW is actually a nice person and my H always told her we were done and he would never come back since I was abusive to him. He has told me that OW pushes him to get along with me and if it wasn't for her, our R would be a lot worse and she wants to be a good influence in my kids lives. Cannot compete with that right now...
seems to me, if she were such a "nice person" she wouldn't be taking another woman's husband. so he told her you are "abusive" and that isn't true, right? yet she conveniently believes it, even though by now she should have realized he is lying. all the rest ("pushes him to get along with me" etc) is just - she is stealing what is yours, and giving you the crumbs.
Yes, yes, YES!
A "nice person" doesn't get involved with a married man/woman.
A "nice person" has respect for marriage and what it stands for.
A "nice person" would never dream of breaking up a family.
If she is such a "nice person", shouldn't she have a plethora of single guys lining up to date her?
Just sayin'...
She can't keep the nice person mask on forever...
I think everyone needs to be reminded -- and fully ponder -- that "letting go" doesn't necessarily mean "giving up."
Sometimes, in fact, it is when true progress is made.
Just food for thought.
Starsky
Right.
A quote that I found in my DB notes that I thought appropriate for Arsene and Carnac... probably others too...
"Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing to do. But to hold it together when everyone would understand if you fell apart,that's true strength"
Not sure who said it, but I cut and pasted it at some point.
Keep going:
I see you have 3 very young kids, and by my calculations, your youngest son was born in the midst of your H's affair?
Gaby's Mom -
My husband left on Dec. 23rd - a day before our big Xmas Eve celebration with both our families - I had to call everyone and cancel that same night.
I was 8 weeks pregnant at the time (we had been trying to get pregnant all year and he knew it had happened), we had a two year old and a 1 year old already - both girls.
Two weeks prior, we had just moved in to a fixer upper we bought with plans to completely gut out and make our dream house.
Can you say bad timing? LOL...
And OW knew all of it since she was already two months into an EA with my H.
I know I wouldn't get involved with a man in that sitch, but as we all know, some people do.
Sorry for the hijack, everyone.
Thanks Denver,
I know that when I go through a tough time like what just happened yesterday re: D8 and W, I feel like just giving up but once I calm down I can see that there is more at play here than W flexing her muscles.
It's just that sometimes, when I stop and regain control of my emotions, although I know I'm doing the right thing, it feels like I'm just enabling her to walk all over me. I feel like she might actually be losing respect and that a tough stance might reverse this. On the other hand, I'm pretty confident that if I did offer an ultimatum now, it would spell the end of this marriage.
Thanks for reminding me to be patient.
Thanks Carnac,
It helps to see that I'm not the only one going through this thought process. I'm still going through Denver's threads and you are right, not too long ago, he was also feeling that way. I have to keep reminding myself the it's a marathon, not a sprint.
BTW, just today I started writing such a letter, knowing well I'm not ready to send it yet.
Cheers mate!
Yeah, thanks for reminding us Starsky. It just very difficult to process that when you are in such a situation, but I know you are right.
"Anyone can give up, it's the easiest thing to do. But to hold it together when everyone would understand if you fell apart,that's true strength"
Thanks Denver, that's one which will end up in my little note book. Thanks!
It's just that sometimes, when I stop and regain control of my emotions, although I know I'm doing the right thing, it feels like I'm just enabling her to walk all over me. I feel like she might actually be losing respect and that a tough stance might reverse this. On the other hand, I'm pretty confident that if I did offer an ultimatum now, it would spell the end of this marriage.
Thanks for reminding me to be patient.
Arsene, maybe the following will help you. It's from my personal archives -- something I saved once from a post to another poster on here -- but it goes to the whole "am I just being a schmuck?" thing that many (especially us GUYS) have a real hard time with. Maybe you can get something out of it:
On “having a plan,” and “The Schmuck Factor”:
I think you let her know that you are here for her when she is ready to do the work necessary. She clearly isn't ready to do that right now.
It would convey weakness if you were to be supplicating towards her while she was still actively cheating on you, and disrespecting her boundaries. Letting her know that you are willing to suck it up, forgive, love unconditionally and do the hard work of reconciliation -- when she is ready -- does NOT convey weakness, it conveys character and strength.
Many, many people confuse "unconditional love" with "doormat-without-boundaries." It is entirely possible -- and NECESSARY -- to demonstrate unconditional love and forgiveness, within a framework of healthy boundaries.
Do you not love a child unconditionally, while at the same time not allowing them to use obscenity when speaking to you? Do you not love a spouse, while simultaneously not allowing them to berate you in front of another couple?
Those are just two silly examples, but I think this is where you're getting hung up. Us men have a REALLLLL hard time with the whole "schmuck factor" thing, and it really rears its head when there is infidelity involved. We don't like to be made a fool. But if your "standing" for your marriage is PART OF A PLAN -- YOUR plan -- then who's the schmuck here? You take a position of "Yes, I am, at the moment, deciding to stand for my marriage, even though my wife is having an affair and is refusing to admit it and work at the marriage, but I have made this choice to do this FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, and I will hold out as long as I can, all the while trying to lay out and enforce healthy boundaries for me and my children. My wife is an adult, I cannot control her, and I'm praying that she comes to her senses soon, before my love for her fully runs out, but I can hold on for "x" months and I will do so, to the best of my ability. This is MY decision, this is MY stand, and I am doing it with boundaries, legal/financial protections for me and my kids, and for a finite period (uncommunicated to spouse -- just tell her "I won't wait forever") of time."
My wife asked me both during -- and after -- her affair, why I was fighting for her. Why I hadn't kicked her out immediately. I told her:
- because I took a wedding vow, before God, and I took that very seriously. It was not "for better or for better yet," it was "for better or for WORSE";
- because I loved her, and we had a lot of shared history together;
- because I didn't want to demonstrate to our four children that when things get tough, you cut and run. You make a stand and fight for what is important to you, for as long as you can, to the best of your ability;
- because if the situation were reversed, and I had say a gambling or alcohol addiction, I would hope that she would do the same and fight for ME;
- and because I didn't want to go to my death bed with REGRETS, that I should have tried harder. If I was going to err, I was going to err on the side of trying to save my marriage and keep my family intact.
When you lay out (and maybe even write down), what YOUR OWN reasons are, and give yourself an internal deadline (6 months, one year, whatever) . . . then I think, as a man, we can feel like WE are executing a plan, and that we're not being a "schmuck."
Does that make sense??
Puppy
Thanks Starsky,
This helps. A lot. Thanks.
Those are just two silly examples, but I think this is where you're getting hung up. Us men have a REALLLLL hard time with the whole "schmuck factor" thing, and it really rears its head when there is infidelity involved. We don't like to be made a fool. But if your "standing" for your marriage is PART OF A PLAN -- YOUR plan -- then who's the schmuck here? You take a position of "Yes, I am, at the moment, deciding to stand for my marriage, even though my wife is having an affair and is refusing to admit it and work at the marriage, but I have made this choice to do this FOR A PERIOD OF TIME, and I will hold out as long as I can, all the while trying to lay out and enforce healthy boundaries for me and my children. My wife is an adult, I cannot control her, and I'm praying that she comes to her senses soon, before my love for her fully runs out, but I can hold on for "x" months and I will do so, to the best of my ability. This is MY decision, this is MY stand, and I am doing it with boundaries, legal/financial protections for me and my kids, and for a finite period (uncommunicated to spouse -- just tell her "I won't wait forever") of time."
My wife asked me both during -- and after -- her affair, why I was fighting for her. Why I hadn't kicked her out immediately. I told her:
- because I took a wedding vow, before God, and I took that very seriously. It was not "for better or for better yet," it was "for better or for WORSE";
- because I loved her, and we had a lot of shared history together;
- because I didn't want to demonstrate to our four children that when things get tough, you cut and run. You make a stand and fight for what is important to you, for as long as you can, to the best of your ability;
- because if the situation were reversed, and I had say a gambling or alcohol addiction, I would hope that she would do the same and fight for ME;
- and because I didn't want to go to my death bed with REGRETS, that I should have tried harder. If I was going to err, I was going to err on the side of trying to save my marriage and keep my family intact.
When you lay out (and maybe even write down), what YOUR OWN reasons are, and give yourself an internal deadline (6 months, one year, whatever) . . . then I think, as a man, we can feel like WE are executing a plan, and that we're not being a "schmuck."
Does that make sense??
Puppy
[/i]
^^^ exactly
